A reply to the ansvver of the Catholiqve apology, or, A cleere vindication of the Catholiques of England from all matter of fact charg'd against them by their enemyes Castlemaine, Roger Palmer, Earl of, 1634-1705. 1668 Approx. 377 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 145 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2008-09 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A31234 Wing C1246 ESTC R38734 17960171 ocm 17960171 106777 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A31234) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 106777) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1121:2) A reply to the ansvver of the Catholiqve apology, or, A cleere vindication of the Catholiques of England from all matter of fact charg'd against them by their enemyes Castlemaine, Roger Palmer, Earl of, 1634-1705. Pugh, Robert, 1609-1679. 288 p. s.n.], [London? : M. DC. LXVIII [1668] Attributed to Roger Palmer, Earl of Castlemaine by Wing and NUC pre-1956 imprints; also attributed to Robert Pugh. "...The humble apology of the English Catholicks ...": p. 24-41. "A catologve [sic] of those Catholicks that died and svffered for theire loyalty": p. 175 [i.e. 275]-288. Reproduction of the original in the Huntington Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. 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Catholics -- England. 2006-07 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2006-07 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2007-06 Robyn Anspach Sampled and proofread 2007-06 Robyn Anspach Text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A REPLY TO THE ANSVVER OF THE CATHOLIQVE APOLOGY . Or a cleere vindication of the Catholiques of England from all matter of fact charg'd against them by their Enemyes . M. DC . LXVIII . PREFACE TO ALL THE ROYALLISTS that suffered for HIS MAJESTY : AND To all the rest of the Good People of ENGLAND . My Lords and Gentlemen : IF formerly the English Catholiques by their Apology did in treat your Intercession to our Gratious Monarch , in suspending the execution of those severities then proclaimed : I ( a member of that faithful Body ) must now beseech your Iustice against the malice of a Parson , who not only strives to oppress the Loyal , but also ( by the inferences of his Discourse ) would stifle hereafter zeal , and mitigate , if he could , the fire , that resides in the breasts of all generous Subjects . Can any thing touch men of Honour more , then after the loss of so many Lives and Estates , insultingly to have it said , It was but your Duty ? Nay , to go yet farther , even in a barbarous falsity , that Necessity only forc'd us to what we did , and that at all times you would rather far have had our room then Company . What Preacher preacht this in the days of old ? Or who told us when Cromwel lived , Be gone , you are no friends to Caesar ? It was our Duty , I confess , and a Duty which no good man can refuse his Soveraign , neither shall we ever be shockt in the fervour of it , by the Doctrine of such a Rabby . The reason why I now take up the Gantlet of this Goliah , is to shew the candour of our Actions , being yet purer then his words are black : which though many could do far better then I , yet here I appear challenged into the List , as Author of the late Apology . Author I can call my self , if plain words may create that Title ; but the Duty and Submission is the sence of the whole Catholique Party ; and for the matter of Fact , Books are the preservers of it , which will for ever record our Innocence , in despite of such detraction and calumny . A Jesuit , the Minister is pleas'd to call me , though I had not the happiness to be bred in their learned Schools : but the trick of this poor man plainly appears , that thus he hopes to make Truth it self suspected , because by the Preaching of such Pastors , the ignorant ( as children consider Sarazens ) have most fond Ideas of the Society and of all Priests in general . My Lords and Gentlemen , Before I go any farther , I think it most necessary to tell you what moved me to write that Pamphlet ; which wken you have well weighed , you will find in the intention , perchance that Piety , which is usually lodged in an English Heart : and that you may assure your selves of the sincerity of my thoughts , Know , that if my Arm was too weak to weild a Sword in the late just War , I had then a passion to wish my years greater . But though I thus lost the Honour of laying my life at the feet of the injured Father , I had yet the satisfaction to hazard it for the Son , even before and since his happy Restauration . For my neer Relations , they all suffered in the Common Cause , which as it brought death to some , so to others the sale of their cōsiderable Estates , and the best Fortune that any could expect , was to be crowded into the dreadful List for Cōposition . I am sure my zeal to the Royal Family has been as forward ( to my power ) as the best , more then which no body certainly can do ; nor have I ever been farther Satyrical against those that stand at Helm , then by innocently saying , We Catholiques are always most unfortunate . This is the Profession I have lived in , and in the same loyal Faith will I end my days . Doubtless then I could have no sinister design in publishing the Apology ; the good end I had , let the World consider . My first Motive was the Law of Nature , which gives the Needy leave to call for Mercy : nor was there at any time a Nation so cruel , that ever yet denied this favour . Could there be a more frightful sight , then to see the whole English World on a sudden , point and cry , Fie on them , Fie on them ? What scoffing Blasphemies did the Seditious utter ? How did Tenants begin to confront their Landlords ? Nay , ( omitting several insolencies of the Rabble ) I knew some Justices , by reason of private spleen to their Neighbours , seize on a Servant , threatning his commitment , unless he made Oath what his Master daily did . Thus then in a trice we became an Eye-sore to our Friends , and a by-word among the Common Ennemies . But now my Minister will nimbly demand , Is not this accusing the King , and blaming the whole Parliament for their Advice and Counsel ? To which I answer , first , with the great Embassador of Heaven , God forbid : Nor is it possible for a man , who would hazard whatever is dear to him on Earth for the glory of his Country , to harbour such thoughts against lawful and just Authority . Pray , Master Parson , let me ask you , Whether Laws in all places are executed by inferiour Officers , according to the intent of the Legislator ? Remember , Sir , the infinitely wise Bill of purging Corporations , and you will find how private revenge converted it into quite another thing . This is a Flayl , against which perchance no wisdom can make defence ; but nevertheless , 't is Vineger , and may force a shriek from the opprest , without offence to Government . My Lords and Gentlemen , I do with all submission acknowledge that Counsellors ( especially the Supream ) may advise their Soveraign to put Laws in force , without giving a reason to the Publick ; and moreover , I do farther say , that it was mercy that they were till then suspended : yet it is no crime , even when they are revived , humbly to beg for favour . And to illustrate this , consider , I beseech you , an Example . Imagine that his Majesty being returned , an honest Cavalier was restored to his House , which with two parts of his Lands lay round about a City , the prime Jewel in the Royal-Diadem . Here the good man sitting now under his own vine , daily blesses God for the happiness of the Nation ; and here each moment he conceives fresh joys , by considering how superlative his late sufferings were . If now on a sudden both Houses ( upon mature deliberation ) should beseech his Majesty to make use of old Laws , to new fortifie this his most considerable place ( which consequently would destroy this Subjects Estate ) no body , I think , could wonder to see him amazed and troubled . Suppose then , to diuert this ruine , the poor mā should beseech his friends to intercede , should shew his sufferings , should urge reasons that his house would be a strength to the Town , and that the Kings Enemies have certainly some bad design by his calamity . For all this the Prince is no way necessitated to grant his request , Because reasons which seem strong to a Party concerned , may yet in themselves be frivolous , when they are weighed by judgments who know far better the state of things , then private men can be conceived to do . But yet , it were severe to indite this man for a Libeller , or say ( because he begs ) that he mutinies against Obedience and Rule . Niniveh might call for mercy without affronting Heaven , even after sentence was given ; nor has ever the King of Kings , when he punishes , forbad his children to cry , Remember Abraham , Remember Isaac , Remember Jacob ; O Lord remember the promises that thou hast made of old . My second Reason , was as a Subject to keep the Peace , and to the utmost of my power to prevent all strife and division . This is an obligation which no son of Adam can plead exemption from : for seeing all men are under somme Government or other , and Quiet the sole end of that , everybody must use the best means he can ( so it contradict not Laws ) to preserve the thing for which Magistracy it self was established . No Creature , I am sure , can be ignorant of the distraction then in England : for he that was in the City , fled to his Farm , frightned with the noise of a new fire ; and he that got into the Country , poasted again to Town , to escape the Massacre , which designed whispers dayly threatned . If this disorder was amongst Protestants , what dreadful confusion must you imagine amongst Catholiques , who are but a handful comparatively to the whole , and yet the famed Authors of these two Conspiracies ! Was it unbeseeming then an English Christian to wish a better understanding among his Countrymen , and to desire the Royal-Party should not be disjoyned , especially when an Invasion was menaced by our Confederate Neighbours ; and a Rebellion newly broke out within the Circuit of our own Island ? If remedies were needful , what Medicament could be better applied then the gentle balm of true perswasion ? By this men saw the Tares which the Enemy sowed whilst they slept ; and thus they began to reknow their often tried friends , descended ( according to Nature and Grace ) from those Ancestors , who like so many Atlas's upheld the Grandeur of our Kings , whilst the whole World from East to West admired their Victories . Consider then , I beseech you , ( Great Patriots ) in whom the Prince of darkness reigns ; whether in me that am termed a Jesuit , and would banish all discord from among my Brethren ; or in this strange Minister , who to sow Sedition , plows with perverted Storie , and then harrows with downright falsities and untruths . How does this poor man rip up old tales of Popes , and by discovering his passion and fancy , infer , that it is a check to the Glory of Kings , and utter loss of Soveraignty , to be under the spiritual Jurisdiction of this Universal Bishop ? Why do not the Kings of France , Spain , Portugal and Poland see this ? How comes it to pass also , that the Emperor ( who is Absolute Monarch of Hungary and Boheme ) and the other great Princes of Germany , are ignorant of a thing of so much concernment ? This I much wonder at indeed , especially since their Countries have so swarmed with these Reformed Evangelists : But it may be they are carelesse of their interest , and so is the simple Florentine , who with the Duke of Savoy , and the rest of the Italian Regulets , want as much wit as they do Authority and Power . These Princes , even these very last , live , as I may say , just under his Holiness his Nose ; and yet ( when they please ) dispute about Temporals , not only with Sword in hand , but are so absolute and arbitrary in their Dominiōs , that England would groan to bear once in many ages , what their Subjects daily suffer . Reflecting thus on the premises , might not I well wonder in our Apology , how so wild a calumny could be laid to our charge , as that our Principles are destructive to Soveraignty ? Truly , I did wonder , and that not a little , especially since our fore-fathers were so eminent in Religion , and yet our Kings rather Monarchs of Europe , then of half an Isle , giving Laws wheresoever they pleased . If some Popes have been exorbitant , 't is no more our Faith to believe their actions iust , then that humane transgressions are the true Precepts of Christianity . As some wicked mē dealt ill with Gods Anointed ; so on the other side , who defended these Princes against pretended illegal impositions of Rome ? were they not Papists ? Yes , and so fervent for that Truth , that the next day they would take the Croisado next against any forreign Hereticks . 'T is no breach in our Religion to say , that Popes in their private Determinations may erre , much less , that they sin like men . A Pope and Council in matters of Faith I confess Infallible ; and therefore I look upon the Decrees of Trent , as divine as those of Nice : nor were there , I am sure , more tricks against Protestants pretended in this , then in the former against the strong and numerous Arrians . No man abominates Prelatick insolencies more then I : Bring out then the Glorious Roll , and upon examination you will find , that our bravest Catholique Princes have been the best sons of the Church : nor is yet a King by our Tenets the worse Child for defending his Rights and Priviledges . Caesar must have what is Caesars , and to God we must ●●nder what is Gods. Shall Notions then convince Experience , when as Demonstration it self often gives way to Practice ? Let us now summon for witnesses to this great Truth , the present Kings of our Profession ; and though their thoughts towre far higher then Eagles , they will not only deride the contrary , but unanimously proclaim , that their people are not rebellious by reason of Ecclesiastical dependence abroad , nor do they think themselves less absolute then that very Prince , who cries , There ought to be no other Pope then Me. What shall I say then to such a man , who will yet affirm our Principles inconsistent with Obedience ? To advise him to Anticyra is vain , for no Ellebore can purge that madness , which first taking root by ignorance , has afterward been quite transformed , through interest , into an obstinate , and selfdeceiving wilfulness . My Lords and Gentlemen , As malice has forced the Answerer thus ill to apply his reading , so also it hath stained his face with so deep a dye , that now he blushes at nothing , nor regards any more whatever he says . Well might I have pardoned him his rude upbraiding , That our sufferings were but Duties , because it is a real Truth : yet no Subject takes pleasure in the sound , when in rancour and despite it is used against him . I say , well might I with silence have swallowed this , seeing afterwards I was to hear him with impudēce proclaim , That Papists were forc'd to their bravery , and like a hard-hunted-Deer , we threw our selves into the Herd , glad to be sheltered under the Royal covert . Glad , we cōfess , as Loyal men grasp the occasion of expressing zeal ; but that we could not sit quietly at home , I flatly here deny : nay , day is not clearer then this , that had not our Loyalty forbad , we might with triumph have been received even into the very embraces of the Enemy . Had this Minister perused Books any farther then their Indices against Catholiques , he would have seen , that let Rebels declare what they will , they 'll soon find excuses , and publickly make use of those very things ( when t is for their advantage ) against which in the beginning they openly profest . Was not Godliness , Godliness , the cry of all the Saints ? yet because dexterity was needful , they admitted into their league H. Martin and others , who were then as notorious for their Vices , as afterwards eminent in all the abominations of the Land. Again , if the Papists were pursued , against Bishops there was as fierce a Chase ; and ever after , Popery and Prelacy were continually plac'd in the same Parenthesis . For my part , I believe the English Episcopacie stuck more in their stomacks then we ; because Hereticks hate most that Religion which is but one remove above them , and from which they are ever iustly taxt rebelliously to have gone out . Besides , the Catholikes ( being of a Faith for which the People had a prejudice ) could no ways obstruct the Reformation , which they so earnestly intended . 'T is plain then , against Prelats they had as great , if not a greater Pique : yet when it conduced to the reducing of North Wales , and subduing of Sir John Owen , they made commander of their Forces not onely a Bishop , but an Arch - bishop also , I mean ( that real Chimaera ) his graceless Grace of York . But why do I trouble you with these probable arguments to prove the possibility of our reception , when as the matter of fact is certain , not done in a corner , but in the Palace of a King , and in the sight of all his Nobles ? Sir Arthur Aston , a Catholick of Quality and Experience , offered our late Souveraign his service , and the service of many more , upon the first preparations of War. The good Prince sincerely gave him thanks ; but told him , that by reason of their Religion , he durst not admit them into the Army : for the Rebels ( who never omitted a pretence ) , would make use of this , to discredit him among the people . This Knight being refused thus , rode in all haste to London , and made the like tender to Essex . The Earl upon the proposal consults the Cabal , who presently advised him to accept the offer ; and so a formal Commission was given Sir Arthur . He immediately posted back to the Court , and there shewed the Commission to his Majestie ; which when he saw , and together with it the Intrigue of these Juglers , he not onely gave Sir Arthur a Command , but from that time declared all Catholicks welcome , who thereupon from every Quarter hastned to his help and succour . The Designes which the Rebels had herein , were many : for by this they not onely hoped to get to themselves a Party well versed in War , great in Bloud , and of Estates answerable to that Bloud ; but also were sure at the same instant to weaken as much the King , as they brought strength to themselves : and besides , they farther considered , that this might adde a gloss to their proceedings abroad , because all Neighbouring Princes ( being Catholiques ) would then probably look on their actions with a more partial eye . Scripture also , which is the stalking-horse of all Sects , could not be wanting to them , who had already , with a Curse ye Meroz , invited all to Rebellion . That very Example might have been a Warrant , that the Godly & Profane may joyn in a Confederation . At least 't was evident , that the children of Israel , who went to fight the battels of the Lord , used a Rahabs assistance , a Harlot of Jericho ; for which service they shew'd favour to all her fathers house : And why then might not the Elect ( when the Cause required it ▪ ) receive aid from us , though children of the Whore of Babylon ? Doubtless , in Conscience this advantage could not have been omitted by the Saints , since it might have been a means towards our Conversion , as Cromwel afterwards urged , when he so passionately stickled to bring in the Jews . My Lords and Gentlemen , Thus stood our Case , and thus are we now reviled by a Minister , after such true and faithful Services : Yes , so Loyal have we been , that I defie all mankinde to shew one that was false , unless perchance those that renouncing their God , and shaking hands with Religion , were owned as Converts by the people . Nay , let any man read but the Account of the a Pyrenaean Treaty , printed by the Dutch and others , and there he shall see , that Cromwel esteemed us the greatest of his enemies : for so he told the Duke of Crequi , when he desired him ( as a request of his Mistress the Queen Mother of France ) to cease his notorious persecutions against us . Certainly , nothing can more fully proue the sincere and disinterested meaning of the Catholiques , then the Kings miraculous Escape from Worcester : for he fell not there into the hands of men of Qualitie onely , but among Papists of all ranks and conditions . There were Priests , there were Trades-men , there were Labourers , there were old women , there were young , fully acquainted with his misery : and though at the same time death was proclaimed to the Concealer , and to the Discoverer a reward ( able to make a poor man Emperour in his own thoughts ) yet no danger , no gain could make them betray him , whom by their Faith they were commanded to conceal . Men of education and parts may sometimes have by designes , even in the best of their doings ; but they of low degree ( being unacquainted with the artifices of the World ) declare the full reality of their hearts , having nothing lodged there , but the religious Principles , which from their youth they received from their Ghostly Father . My Lords and Gentlemen , I must here conjure you not to put any forc'd interpretation upon my words : for I do not now Apologize for any Extravagancies done by our Predecessours in the beginning of the Reformation ; onely let me beseech you to look on their Case at that time with the gentlest aspect that may be . Height of temptation may perchance move pitie in Magistrates , though not pervert their Justice : and let me desire him that will judge , to lay his hand on his owne brest , and truly examine there , what he himself would do in this condition . Suppose he were of a Religion which he thought the visible Church from age to age delivered , which he knew his ancestors to have happily lived under , and which he saw profest by all the Kingdoms about him : suppose then on a sudden , by the preaching of two or three men ( base in their rank , and taxt in Moralities obyne another ) a flame should break out through all Europe , and turn topsie-turvie this venerable Building , to make way for divers unlike Fabricks , every on of which , each Architect affirmed , was according to Gods own Word and Model . I ask him then in such a devastation , ( which , to use a Camden's own phrase , The world stood amaz'd , and England groan'd at ) what would flesh and bloud move him to ? 'T is an Article of my Faith , that neither Heresie nor Turcism ( because ill must not be done that good may come of it ) can be opposed by Rebellion ; though many of the Reformed Divines are ( b as I shal shew you ) of another sentiment . Yet even those that do agree with me , will nevertheless confess , that ( by reason of carnal passions ) Grace must be predominant to resist so strong a torrent . Was it not strange in the beginning , to behold c Abbies destroyed , Bishopricks gelded , Chanteries , Hospitals and Colledges turned to profane uses ? Nay , ( after a change of Liturgies and Rites ) to see people renounce their pious Vows , and out of Godliness grow more licentious and loose . a These and the like unexpected alterations ( it being a pitiful thing ( as b Stow says ) to hear the lamentations in the Country for Religious houses ) spurred men forward to resist : for people saw the Conflagration , and none knew in what it would determine or end . But now , Noble Country-men , the Scene is quite altered : for now we know the full scope of your designe , now we are inured to the gentle . Yoak of Protestant Kings , and now we are so incorporated by our long acquaintance and joynt sufferings that all humane proneness to contend ( which our Enemies called Principles of Faith ) is wholly eradicated and taken away . Having thus shew'd you that our Principles are not dangerous to Kings , that our actions have been zealous for Kings , and moreover that it is impossible we should again fall into those misdemeanours , into which natural frailtie and misusage drove the foregoing age : I will now , with your permission , examine the Answer of our Minister to each particular Paragraph , and by it shall still farther let you see , as well his pernicious ill nature , as his detestable Positions and Designes . But , my Lords and Gentlemen , I shall beseech you , first throughly to peruse the Apologie it self , it being the ground of the whole Dispute : and because it hath been mangled by him into many imperfect Sections , I have thought fit to print it here entire , to the end you might run it over with the more ease ; and that by the whole connexion and dependance ( which mutilation spoils ) you may the better consider the real integritie I had , in putting out that true and submissive Vindication . TO ALL THE ROYALLISTS that suffered for HIS MAJESTY : AND To all the rest of the Good People of ENGLAND . The Humble APOLOGIE of the ENGLISH CATHOLICKS My Lords and Gentlemen : THe Arms which Christians can use against Lawful Powers in their Severity , are only Prayers & Tears . Now since nothing can equal the infinity of those we have shed , but the Cause , viz. to see our dearest Friends forsake us ; we hope it will not offend you , if ( after we have a little wip'd our eyes ) we sigh out our Complaints to you . We had spoken much sooner , had we not been silent through consternation to see you so enflam'd ( whom with reverence we honour ) and also to shew our submissive patience , which used no slights or tricks to divert the debates of Parliament . For no body can imagine , where so many of the great Nobility and Gentry are concern'd , but something might have been done ; whenas in all ages we see things of Publick advantage by the managers dexterity nipt in the bud , even in the very Houses themselves . Far be it from Catholicks to perplex Parliaments , who have been the Founders of their Priviledges , and all Ancient Lawes . Nay , Mâgna Charta it self had its rise from us ; which we do the less boast of , since it was not at first obtained in so submiss and humble manner . We sung our Nunc dimittis , when we saw our Master in his Throne , and you in your deserved Authority and Rule : nor could any thing have ever grieved us more , then to have our Loyalty called into Question by you , even at the instigation of our greatest Adversaries . If we must suffer , let it be by you alone : for that 's a double death to men of Honour , to have their Enemies not onely Accusers , but their insulting Judges also . These are they , that by beginning with us , murthered their Prince , and wounded you : And shall the same Method continue by your approbation ? We are sure you mean well , though their designe be wicked . But let it never be recorded in Story , that you forgot your often Vows to us , in joyning with them that have been the cause of so great calamity to the Nation . Of all Calumnies against Catholicks , we have admired at none so much , as that their Principles are said to be inconsistent with Government , and they themselves thought ever prone to Rebellion . My Lords and Gentlemen , Had this been a new Sect not known before , something perchance might have been doubted : but to lay this at their doors , that have governed the Civilized World , is the Miracle of Miracles to us . Did Richard the First , or Edward Longshanks , suspect his Catholicks that served in Palestine , and made our Countries Fame big in the Chronicle of all Ages ? Or did they mistrust ( in their dangerous absence ) their Subjects at home , because they were of this Profession ? Could Edward the Third imagine those to be Trayterous in their Doctrine , that had that care and duty for their Prince , as to make them ( by Statute ) guilty of death in the highest degree , that had the least thought of ill against the King ? Be pleased that Henry the Fifth be remembred also , who did those Wonders of which the whole World does still resound ; and certainly all History will agree in this , that 't was Old Castle he feared , and not those that believed the Bishop of Rome to be Head of the Church . We will no longer trouble you with putting you in minde of any more of our mighty Kings , who have been feared abroad , and as safe at home as any since the Reformation of Religion . We shall onely adde this , that if Popery be the enslaving of Princes , France still believes it self as absolute as Denmark or Sweden : nor will ever the House of Austria abjure the Pope , to secure themselves of the fidelity of their Subiects . We shall always acknowledge to the whole World , that there have been as many brave English in this last Century , as in any other place whatsoever . Yet since the exclusion of the Catholick Faith , there has been that committed by those , who would be fain called Protestants , that the wickedest Papist never dreamt of 'T was never heard of before , that an absolute Queen was condemned by Subjects , and those stiled her Peers ; or that a King was publickly tried and executed by his own people and servants . My Lords and Gentlemen , We know who were the Authors of this last Abomination , and how generously you strove against the raging Torrent ; nor have we any other ends to remember you of it , but to shew that all Religions may have a corrupted spawn , and that God hath been pleased to permit such a Rebellion which our progenitors never saw , to convince you perchance ( whom for ever may he prosper ) that Popery is not the only Source of Treason . Little did we think ( when your Prayers and ours were offered up to beg a Blessing on the Kings Affairs ) ever to see that day , in which Carlos , Gifford , Whitgrave , and the Pendrels should be punished by your desires for that Religion , which obliged them to save their forlorn Prince ; and a stigmatized man ( for his offences against King and Church ) a chief promoter of it . Nay , less did we imagine , that by your Votes Hudlestone might be hanged , who again secured our Soveraign ; and others free in their fat possessions , that sat as Judges , and sealed the Execution of that great Prince of happy Memory . We confess , we are unfortunate , & you just Judges , whom with our lives we will ever maintain to be so ; nor are we ignorant the necessity of affairs made the King and you do things , which formerly you could not so much as fancy : yet give us leave to say we are still Loyal ; nay , to desire you to believe so , and to remember how synonymous ( under the late Rebellion ) was the word Papist and Cavalier ; for there was no Papist that was not deemed a Caualier , nor no Caualier that was not call'd a Papist , or at least thought to be Popishly affected . We know , though we differ something in Religion , ( the truth of which let the last day judge ) yet none can agree with your inclinations , or are fitter for your converse then we ; for as we have as much birth among us as England can boast of , so our breeding leans your way both in Court and Camp. And therefore had not our late Sufferings united us in that firm tie , yet our like humors must needs have joyned our hearts . If we erre , pity our condition , and remember what your great Ancestors were ; and make some difference between us that have twice converted England from Paganism , and those other Sects that can challenge nothing but intrusion for their imposed Authority . But 't is generally said , That Papists cannot live without persecuting all other Religions within their reach . We confess , where the name of Protestant is unknown , the Catholick Magistrates ( believing it erronious ) do use all endeavours to keep it out : Yet in those Countreys where Liberty is given , they have far more Priviledges then we under any Reformed Government whatsoever . To be short , we will only instance France for all , where they have publick Churches , where they can make what Proselytes they please , and where 't is not against Law to be in any Charge or Imployment . Now Holland , which permits every thing gives us 't is true our Lives and Estates , but takes away alle Trust and Rule , and leaves us also in danger of the Scout , whensoever he pleases to molest our Meetings . Because we have named France , the Massacre will perchance be urged against us . But the World must know that was a Cabinet-Plot , condemned as wicked by Catholick Writers there , and of other Countries also . Besides , it cannot be thought they were murthered for being Protestants , since 't was their powerful Rebellion ( let their Faith have been what it would ) that drew them into that ill-machinated destruction . May it not as well be said in the next Catholick Kings Reign , that the Duke of Guise , ande Cardinal ( Heads of the League ) were killed for their Religion also ? Now no body is ignorant , that 't was their factious Authority , which made that jealous Prince design their deaths , though by unwarrantable means . If it were for Doctrine that the Hugonots suffered in France , this haughty Monaroh would soon destroy them now , having neither Force nor Towns to resist his Might and Puissance . They yet live free enough , being even Members of Parliament ; and may convert the Kings Brother too , if he thinks fit to be so . Thus you may see how well Protestants live in a Popish Country under a Popish King : Nor was Charlemaign more Catholick then this ; for though he contends sometimes with the Pope , 't is not of Faith , but about Gallicane Priviledges , which perchance he may very lawfully do . Judge then , Worthy Patriots , who are the best used , and consider our hardship here in England , where 't is not only a Fine for hearing Mass , but death to the Master for having a Priest in his house ; and so far we are from preferment , that by Law we cannot come within ten miles of London ; all which we know your great Mercy will never permit you to exact . It has been often urged , that our misdemeanours in Queen Elizabeths and King James's time , were the cause of our punishment . We earnestly wish that the Party had had more patience under that Princess : But pray consider ( though we excuse not their faults ) whether it was not a Question harder then that of York and Lancaster ( the cause of a War of such length , and death of so many Princes ) who had most right , Queen Elizabeth or Mary Stuart . For since the whole Kingdom had crowned and sworn Allegeance to Queen Mary , they owned her as the legitimate daughter to Henry the Eighth ; and therefore 't was thought necessarily to follow by many , that if Mary was the true Child , Elizabeth was the Natural , which must needs give way to the thrice noble Queen of Scots . 'T was for the Royal House of Scotland that they suffered in those days , and 't is for the same illustrious Family we are ready to hazard all on any occasion . Nor can the consequence of the former procedure be but ill , if a Henry the Eighth ( whom Sir W. Rawleigh and my Lord Cherbury , two famous Protestants , have so homely characterized ) should after twenty years co-habitation , turn away his wife , and this out of scruple of Conscience ( as he said ) when as History declares , that he never spared woman in his lust , nor man his fury . Now for the fifth of Novēber , with hāds lifted up to Heaven , we abominate and detest , and from the bottō of our hearts , say , may they fall into irrecoverable perdition , who propagate that faith by the blood of Kings , which is to be planted in truth and meekness only . But let it not displease ( Men , Brethren , and Fathers ) if we ask whether Ulysses be no better known ? or who has forgot the Plots of Cromwel , framed in his Closet , not only to destroy many faithful Cavaliers ; but also to put a lustre upon his Intelligence , as if nothing could be done without his knowledge ? Even so did the then great Minister , who drew some few ambitious , men into this conjuration , and then discovered it by a Miracle . This will easily appear , viz. how little the Catholique Party understood the design , seeing there were not a score of guilty found , though all imaginable industry was used by the Commons , Lords , and Privy Councel too . But suppose ( my Lords and Gentlemen , which never can be granted ) that all the Papists of that age were consenting , Will you be so severe then to still punish the Children for their Fathers faults ? Nay , such Children that so unanimously joyned with you in that glorious Quarrel , wherein you and we underwent such sufferings , that needs we must have all sunk , had not our mutual love assisted . What have we done , that we should now deserve your Anger ? Has the Indiscretion of some few incenst you ? 'T is true , that is the thing Objected . Do not you know an Enemy may easily mistake a Mass-Bell , for that which calls to Dinner ; or a Sequestrator glad to be affronted being Constable ? when 't was the hatred to his person , and not present Office , which perchance egg'd a rash man to folly . We dare with submission say , let a publick Invitation be put up against any Party whatsoever ; nay , against the Reverend Bishops themselves , and some malicious Informer or other will alledge that which may be far better to conceal . Yet all mankind by a Manifesto on the House-door are encouraged to accuse us ; Nor are they upon Oath , though your Enemies and ours take all for granted and true . It cannot be imagined , where there are so many men of heat and youth ( overjoy'd with the happy Restauration of their Prince , and remembring the Insolencies of the former Grandees ) that they should all , at all times prudently carry themselves ; for this would be more then men : And truly we esteem it as a particular blessing , that God has not suffer'd many , through vanitie or frailty to fall into greater faults , ther are yet as we understand laid to our charge . Can we chuse but be dismay'd ( when all things fail ) that extravagant Crimes are fathered on us ? It is we that must be the Authors , some say , of firing the Citie , even we that have lost so vastly by it . Yet truly in this our ingenuity is great , since we think it no Plot , though our Enemie , an Hugonot Protestant acknowledged the fact , and was iustly executed for his vain Confession . Again , if a Merchant of the Church of England buy Knives for the business of his Trade , this also presently is a Popish contriuance to destroy the well-affected . We must a little complain , finding it by experience , that by reason you discontenance us , the people rage : and again , because they rage , we are the more forsaken by you . Assured we are that our Conversation is affable , and our Houses so many hospitable receipts to our Neighbours . Our acquaintance therefore we fear at no time , but it is the stranger we dread ( that taking all on hear say ) zealously wounds , and then examines the business when 't is too late , or is perchance confirmed by another , that knows no more of us then he himself . 'T is to you we must make our applications , beseeching you ( as Subjects tender of our King ) to intercede for us in the execution , and weigh the Dilemma , which doubtless he is in , either to deny so good a Parliament their request , or else run counter to his Royal inclinations , when he punishes the weak and harmless . Why may not we , Noble Country-men , hope for favour from you , as well as the French Protestants find from theirs ? A greater duty then ours none could express , we are sure . Or why should the United Provinces , and other Magistrates ( that are harsh both in mind and manners ) refrain from violence against our Religion , and your , tender breasts seem not to harbour the least compassion or pity ? These neighboring people sequestrer none for their Faith , but for transgression against the State ; Nor is the whole party involved in the crime of a few , but every man suffers for his own and proper fault . Do you then the like , and he that offends let him die without mercy , And think always ( we beseech you ) of Cromwels injustice , who for the actions of some against his pretended Laws , drew thousands into Decimation ( even ignorant of the thing ) after they had vastlie paid for their securitie and quiet . We have no studie but the Glory of our Soveraign , and just libertie of the Subjects ; nor was it a mean argument of our dutie , when every Catholique Lord gave his voice for the Restoration of Bishops ; by which we could pretend no other advantage , but that 26. Votes ( subsisting wholly by the Crown ) were added to the defence of Kingship , and consequently a check to all Anarchy and confusion . 'T is morally impossible , but that we , who approve of Monarhy in the Church , must ever be fond of it in the State also . Yet this is a misfortune we now plainly feel , that the longer the late transgressors live , the more forgotten are their crimes , whilst distance in time calls the faults of our Fathers to remembrance , and buries our own Allegeance in eternal Oblivion and forgetfulness . My Lords and Gentlemen , Consider we beseech you , the sad condition of the Irish Souldiers now in England , the worst of which Nation could be but intentionallie so wicked , as the acted villanie of many English , whom your admired Clemencie pardoned . Remember how they left the Spanish service when they heard their King was in France ; and how they forsook the emploiment of that unnatural Prince , after he had committed that never to be forgotten act of banishing his distressed Kinsman out of his Dominions . These poor men left all again to bring their Monarch to his home , and shall they then he forgotten by You ? Or , shall my Lord Douglas and his brave Scots be left to their shifts ; who scorn'd to receive Wages of those that have declared War against England ? How commonly is it said , That the Oath of renouncing their Religion is intended for these ? which will needs bring this loss to the King and you , that either you will force all of our Faith to lay down their Arms ( though by experience , of great integrity and worth ) or else , if some few you retain , they are such whom Necessity has made to swear against Conscience , and who therefore will certainly betray you , when a greater advantage shall be offered . By this test then , you can have none but whom with caution you ought to shun , and thus must you drive away those that truly would serve you ; for had they the least thought of being false , they would gladly take the advantage of gain and pay , to deceive you . We know your wisdom and generosity , and therefore cannot imagine such a thing . Nor do we doubt when you shew favour to these , but you will use mercy to us , who are both fellow-Subjects , and your owen flesh and blood also . If you forsake us , we must say , the world decays , and its final transmutation must needs quickly follow . Little do you think the insolencies we shall suffer by Committee-men , &c. whom chance and lot has put in to petty power . Nor will it chuse but grieve you , to see them abused ( whom formerly you loved . ) even by the Common Enemy of us both . When they punish , how will they triumph and say . Take this ( poor Romanists ) for your love to King ship ; and again , this for your long doating on the Royal Party ; all which you shall receive from us , Commissioned by your dearest friends , and under this cloak we will gladly vent our private spleen and malice . We know , My Lords and Gentlemen , that from your hearts you do deplore our condition ; yet permit us to tell you , your bravery must extend thus far , as not to sit still with pity only , but each is to labour for the distressed , as far as in reality his ablity will reach : some must beseech our Gracious Soveraign for us , others must again undeceive the Good , though deluded Multitude . Therefore all are to remember who are the prime raisers of the Storm , and how through our sides they would wound both the KING and You ; for though their hatred to our selves is great , yet the enmity out of all measure encreases , because we have been yours ( and so shall continue ) even in the fiery day of trial . Protect us we entreat you then upon all your former Promises , or if that be not sufficient , for the sakes of those that lost their Estates with you ; many of which are now fallen a sleep . But if this be still too weak , we must conjure you by the sight of this Bloody Catalogue , which contains the Names of your murthered Friends and Relations , who in the heat of Battail , perchance saved many of your Lives , even with the joyful loss of their own . The Catalogue of Names is at the end of the Book . A material Advertisement to the Reader both concerning the Answerer of the Apology , and the Method of this Reply . READER , ABout the middle of Novem. 1666. when the known Enemies of the Kingdom had enflamed the minds of several honest and well-meaning people , I put out this sincere Apology . The Reasons therein ( having nothing but truth and reallity in them ) satisfied many : for every body of themselves saw there was no ground , and most confest they were disordered because they saw others so . 'T was after Christmas before I left London ; and truly , I suppos'd that if any body could be so malitiously impertinent , as by an Answer to cavil at so innocent a thing , he would have done it in two moneths , it being but a sheet of Paper against which he was to write ; and then ( being neer at hand ) I should have been as quick in my Reply . Though the worthy Answerer took much more time for his solid Piece , yet in the interval mine was egregiously confuted : Nor was ever Gonvil's plain Testament so tore and repiec'd as this Pamphlet , by the wise and numerous Assailants . One said , that the whole thing was harmless and reasonable ; but that Magna Charta seemed to be struck at . His fellow answered , that Magna Charta was Magna Farta , and of it self Popish ; and that all was well , had not Queen Elizabeth been abused . To this a third answered , that Q. Elizabeth was now no more to them then William Rufus , and all that was said was out of Protestant History ; but the only thing he blamed was , that the fifth of Nov. ( which was still a Festival ) was defamed , and consequently they themselves jeer'd at in their Annual observation . At him another presently laugh'd , and askt , whether any people ever reverenc'd a Solemnity against themselves : for his own part , he cared not whether the Papists were guilty or not , let them look to that ; therefore he was sufficiently satisfied with the Apology , had the Catalogue been omitted of those that died in the War : for by it , it seemed , as if the whole Royal Army were Papists , because so many Popish Officers , and men of great Condition , were killed in that Service . To this a Neighbour said , that he knew many more of the Party , then were mentioned , that thus fell for their Allegiance ; and that it was hard , that so cheap recompence should be denied men for their lives : but the sole thing which he stumbled at , was the timing & publication of it . Against whom the whole Company concluded , that if ever the time was fit , 't was then when the flame appeared , and that 't would have been ridiculous to Apologize , when there was no stir or clamour . Thus have I been vindicated by my Reprehenders , and thus have I both read and seen in matters of Religion , where the several Antagonists have solved the Popish difficulties themselves . After Christmas , Reader ( as I said before ) I not only went out of Town , but have ever since been many score of miles distant from it , which is the cause I saw not this Answer so soon as otherwise I should have done : at last it was sent me by a Protestant Gentleman who had seen the Apology before it was printed . When I had read it , I began to admire , not only at the malice of the thing , but also at the weakness of the man , that thus needlesly took up the Cudgels . Who the Author is , to this day I know not ; nor can any man desire his Acquaintance , unless it be to say , they have seen the Eighth Wise man ▪ I do not say , that he may not be a man of Wit ; but nevertheless , I am sure , he is neither of Judgment nor Principles . For had he been a Royallist , he would have had more Gratitude and good Nature , then to have forgotten faithful friends in a storm , and added ( as he hoped ) fuel to the flame , when we were underhand bespattred by Enemies to us both . Nor was there any drift in the Apology , but to settle a Distemper , raised without either cause or reason . A Presbyterian I can never think him , because they being men of depth and prudence , know that the effects of their crying against Papists in 1640. are too fresh in memory ; nor can it be an advantage for them to harass mens Consciences , while their own are within reach of Law. I can also as little fancy that an Independant , or any real member of that many-headed and uncompacted Body , could soberly by writing wish a Persecution for Religion , being them selves obnoxious upon all accounts ; and if severity should universally fall , they cannot imagine but that men of Birth , men of Breeding , men of Loyalty , must needs at all times find more friends then they . Who he is , God knows , a man of Principles ( as I said ) I am sure he is not , nor do I doubt but his officiousness will at last find its reward : and since he has called me Turk , and worse , as you shall see by and by , I suppose he will not take it amiss , if I speak my thoughts , viz. that though he carps in a Ministers Dialect , yet doubtless he is a Jew of the Dukes Place . Reader , When I received this Answer , both by my Letters and Friends neer me , I was perswaded not to reply , because it had no force in it self , nor had any applause at London . I could not upon this information but assent ; but now lately I have been awak'd by a new occasion . I had some days ago sent me a Pamphlet , called ▪ A Discourse of the Religion of England ; a simpler thing was never yet writ , I am sure ; and take this for a proof , for he says among many hundred of his silly things , that Holland , Scotland and Geneva brought in the Reformed Religion without Rebellion . He has been well whipt by a Protestant , but deserves much more . For Scroop was excepted out of the Act of Oblivion , and hanged , for excusing to Sir Richard Brown after mercy , instead of being contrite for his crime : yet this man that owns himself a Presbyterian ( which I believe as much as that my Minister was a Cavalier ) says , The a Non-conformists were only eager Assertors of Legal Liberties . Seven Chapters of his Treatise are against Papists , and all taken out of the Answerer of the Apology : therefore since I find it hath weight in the opinion of one , lest more weak Brethren should fall , I thought fit to take some pains thus to remove the cause . I was forced to go the insipid way of Section by Section , well knowing that some people not finding the Solution to follow the Objection , would sooner haesitate and doubt Insipid ; I call this Method , because there is no art or contrivance in it ; nor is it possible but the best Reply in the World must be then frigidly stiff , when the Adversary in the Paragraph has no Spirit in him . I have not Printed the Answer verbatim , for that would be too tedious , but have so contracted it ▪ that I challenge the Author himself to find any thing left out , that might have added force to the Argument . The Books I use in Citations are all Protestant , except Davilah , impartial , as the reformed confess : for though he is acknowledged to be a Creature and adorer of Katherine de Medices , yet concerning her he speaks home , even in many private intrigues , which might have been well omitted . Him only I quote about the Hugonots Rebellion ; but their actions are so villanously notorious , that any Author shall be-sufficient for that purpose . I must needs say , I have had no little trouble in this Composition , fearing the Bulk would be voluminous ; for by Nature I hate superfluities and always strive to crowd my matter into the narrowest room imaginable . In this Work I had still the disgustful vexation , how to omit , and yet be still intelligible : For I dare affirm , had I writ all I could upon this Subject ▪ and followed to the utmost the disingenious digressions of the Answerer , I should have swell'd to the bigness of any Folio extant . I have nevertheless past by nothing material ; and hope this thin Octavo will be both useful and satisfactory to you , since it contains the whole accusation in practice , charged upon the English Catholicks ; I have urged nothing ( as I said before ) but what I prove out of the Record of a violent Protestant , or a natural deduction from it : and that you may upon occasion find each particular matter , here follow the Contents themselves in order . 1. Whether Papists were necessitated farther then in Duty to fight for their Soveraign . Pref. 2. Concerning stirs by Papists in the beginning of the Reformation . Pref. 3. Concerning the Irish Rebellion Rep. 1. 4. Mr. Du Molins Canonical french integrity in his allegations agains Papist's , Rep. 3. He is endanger'd by his owne baite . Rep. 35. 5. Whether Papists die in England for their Conscience or for Treason ? Rep. 4. 6. About the Oath of Allegeance and dispensing with Vows . Rep. 5. 7. Whether their General Councils , Decretals and Divines teach Papists Rebellion and deposing Kings ? And in the Theory and Practise , whether Papists or Protestants have been most in fault . Rep. 6. 8. Whither Papist's govern'd the civiliz'd world ? And of theire Ignorance . Rep. 7. 9. Whether Protestant Princes are more absolute then the Popish ? Pref. and Rep. 9. 10. 10. About Q. Maries Persecution , and whether she or the Reformed Government , spilt most Blood for Religion ? Rep. 11. 11. Whither Papist's caus'd the war in the three Kingdomes ? Rep. 13. 12. Whether Papists were connivers in the late Troubles . Rep. 15. 13. Whether Papists twice converted England from Paganism ? Rep. 16. 14. Whether Popish or Protestant Governments are kinder to their dissenting Subjects ? Rep. 17. Postscript . 15. Concerning the French Massacre . Rep. 18. 19. 20. 16. The Popish misdemeanors in Q. Elizabeths Reign , and their then Plea. Rep. 22. 17. How Protestants have used their Popish Princes here in England . Rep. 22. 18. About the Powder-Treason . Rep. 28. 19. About Hubert the Frenchman , who was hang'd for burning London . Rep. 35. 20. Concerning the Catalogue of the Papists that died for their King , and of the Protestants also that died in that bed of Honour . Rep. 48. 21. Of the Papist's that leave their Religion , & why ? Rep. 48. Sect. 5. Many other things of note are here handled in several places . The Printer to the Reader . I Had directions to add Figures to the Apology ( here before Printed intire ) which might correspond to each Answer , to the end you might know what the Answerer strives to confute . But because this would be no little trouble to you , to turn and return in the reading of the Book , I have therefore reprinted the Apology , dividing it into several Sections corresponding both with the Answer and Reply . This will be , I am sure , of no little conveniency to you : and so farewel . THe Title which the Minister has prefixt to his Book , is The late Apology in behalf of the Papists reprinted , and answered in behalf of the Royallists . Now , I beseech you , Reader ( having read the Apology through ) what injury has any good man done him by it ? But besides , how extravagant is that beginning ? for to write against Papists in Vindication of the Royallists , is like the defending of King Charles , by the opposing of Charles Stuart . Did not the Protestants and Catholicks make up one Body , viz. the Royal Party ? I am sure , they that distinguish them at present , hated both formerly , and would willingly divide them now , in hopes to weaken the King , and put the whole Kingdom in new confusions . He therefore that thus impertinently begins with wicked intentions , can never without doubt end either well or wisely . SECT . I. APOLOGY . The Arms which Christians can use against Lawful Powers in their Severity , are onely Prayers and Tears . Now since nothing can equal the infinity of those we have shed , but the Cause , viz. To see our dearest Friends forsake us ; we hope it will not offend you , if ( after we have a little wip'd our eyes ) we sigh out our Complaints to you . I. ANSWER . The minister directs his Answer to the Author of the Apology , and says thus to the foregoing words : That in the Conspiracy of Babington against Q. Elizabeth , such a Declaration was made about Prayers and Tears that the expression infinity of tears is in it self improper , and the sence more applicable to Q. Maries days , the Irish Rebellion , or our own faboulous Purgatory . But we Iesuites , whether ranting , or whining , cannot speak like other men . REPLY I. Is not this great malice , to make a parity between them who considered Q. Elizabeth as an Usurper , and us that ( in words and sufferings ) acknowledge no Prince had ever a more unquestionable Title then ours ? To this I need not say more , having in the latter end of the Preface shewed , that time and accidents have quite altered the Scene , and doubtless our obedience to the Government is now apparently so great , that t is as probable the Heptarchy may be revived , or the Welsh rebel ( which were high folly to imagine ) as that disorders or tumults can be again occasioned by the Catholiques . Concerning the Irish Rebellion , I never so much as once mentioned it in the Apology , believing there could not be found a man so inhumane , that would charge a thing upon us , which for 26 years together we were all acknowledged to be clear of , though the late Enemies of the Kingdom had made strict inquisition about it ; and every body knows they wanted not will ( had there been probability ) to make us Partizans in all detestable and odious contrivances . 'T was evident the English Catholicks abhorred it , that several fought against the Rebels , that we all decried their proceedings ; nor did I ever hear any of our Party in the least excuse the fact , though to my knowledge Protestants have often done it . My Lord Macquire ( who being a prime Actor , knew the whole Conspiracy ) at his Execution at Tyborn was conjured as a dying man to declare if the English Papists had any knowledge or hand in the Design : a He took it on his death , that not a man in England knew of it but one , and he was an Irishman , and a Protestant also . But who is ignorant ( unless wilfully opinionated ) that , that which produced this wickedness , was both a National animosity , and a particular hatred of the Conquered to the Conqueror ? Nor would less have been done ; had any English Catholique King been their Governour . Religion is no tie between Nations when great hatreds arise , or great advantages for freedom ( as they term it ) offer themselves , as we experimentally find by the Sicilian Vespers abroad , and at home by the total Massacre in one night of the , a Danes by the English. The Protestant Irishman you see also was so willing to have the English out of Ireland , that he never discovered the Plot , though he knew what was intended against his own Religion . For his Criticism about the word infinitie , 't is as ridiculous as his poor quibble about Purgatory ; and for Queen Maries days , I shal by and by speak of them at large in a more b proper place . SECT . 2. APOLOGY . We had spoken much sooner , had we not been silent through consternation to see you so inflam'd ( whom with reverence we Honour ) and also to shew our submissive patience , which used no slights or tricks to divert the debates of Parliament . For no body can imagine , where so many of the great Nobility and Gentry are concern'd , but some thing might have been done ; when as in all ages we see things of Publick advantage by the managers dexterity nipt in the bud , even in the very Houses themselves . Far be it from Catholicks to perplex Parliaments , who have been the Founders of their Priviledges , and all Antient Laws . Nay , Magna Charta it self had its rise from us ; Which we do the less boast of , since it was not at first obtained in so submiss and humble a manner . ANSWER II. That men of the Popish Religion were the Founders of our good Laws and Priviledges of Parliament , the Minister cannot allow : for those of our Ancestors that stood for the Nation were , he says , of his Religion , as much as ours ; but those particularly ours , that sided with the Pope . REPLY . II. Judge whether this man be not madde then Fox ; for Fox never thought any fit for Kalendar-Saints and Martyrs , but those that denied Popery ; as a Roger Only , ali● Bullingbroke , whom Fox hath Canonized though condemned ( as Stow says ) to di● for b Necromancy . Sir c Roger Acton also hanged for d Rebellion ; and many score of the like Gang. Now the Minister by his Argument will have Protestant all the Parliaments that made Magna Charta and ou● other Priviledges , all people that acknowledged them , and all Officers that from time to time have executed these ancient Laws : Yet these transactions were in the darkest times of Popery ; nor did the Waldenses , Albigenses , Wi●kliffians , Lollards , &c. look on the Government then as Protestant , as you may seè in Mr. Fox hi● voluminous Story . And since I have named this famous Author , who is call'd a sound new writer in the much celebrated Practice of piety , in the eight reason for the morality of the Sabbath ; Mr. Heylin also rank's him as the prime modern Ecclesiasticall Writer . I say since I have nam'd this once famous Mr Fox . I cannot but condole his misfortune , that instead of having his Book in Churches as formerly it was wont , 't is now thought fit onely to cramp sleepers , according to Mrs. Abigails Practice . And truly a like fate attends all the first Champions of Reformation ; for in tract of time their Principles being found by theyr followers impossible to be maintained , new ones ( sometimes opposite to the former ) are therefore invented , which hereafter will also fail as the others did before them . SECT . III. APOLOGY . We sung our Nunc. Dimittis , when we saw our Master in his Throne , and you in your deserved Authority and Rule . ANSWER III. If we sang our Dimittis at the present Kings return , he says some of us rejoyc'd , and sang an Exultemus at the beheading of the former . REPLY . III. Who would now think that a man could be so abominable as to lay such a thing to our charge without any proof at all ? Reader , this Godly Minister has done it , and that he might show his utmost malice , he cites only in the Margent the Answerer of Philanax , as if we were undoubtedly found guilty of the fact . But because my Minister durst not for shame set dowd Du Moulins words , I will here present you with his Accusation verbatim ; nor will Christ himself be innocent , if such evidence as this be sufficient . a When the business of the late bad times are once ripe for an History , and time the bringer forth of truth hath discovered the mysteries of Iniquity , and the depths of Satan which have wrought so much crime and mischief , it will be found that the late Rebellion was raised and fostered by the arts of the Court of Rome . That Jesuits profest themselves Independents , as not depending on the Church of England ; and Fifth-Monarchy-men , that they might pull down the English Monarchy ; and that in the Committees , for the King and Church , they had their Spies and their Agents . The Roman Priest and Confessour is known , who when he saw the fatal stroke given to our Holy King and Martyr , flourished with his Sword and said , Now the greatest Enemy ▪ we have in the World is gone . Now , Reader , let me ask you when will the business of our times be ripe for History ? or what discoveries can there be made against us , if in six and twenty years after the beginning of the War , if in twenty years after the end of it , and perpetration of that most accursed Murther , we have not only been owned as Loyal Subjects , but still embrac'd by the Protestant Cavaliers as true Partizans with them in all their glorious Sufferings ? I am sure the Press was free both in the Rumps and Olivers Tyranny ; and if it were possible to suppose those times had been unseasonable , why have not the grave Historians since the Kings restauration made our late perfidiousness appear ? I am sure Protestants a both Lay and Clergy , for their Treason in his Majesties absence have been convicted since his return , when as no Papist could ever yet be suspected for the least defection from our Soveraing . Can this man think himself Canon of Canterbury ) and dare say , that the Priest is known who flourisht his Sword at the fatal stroke , when as no body knows him , no not he himsef ? Doubtless he means some Hugonot Minister : for what Cavalier was ever in France , and knows not how those Saints adored Cromwel ? hating from the beginning to the end both our King and his Party . Let the World judge of this Story concerning this nameless Priest , by him whom he names , viz. Mr. White whose Book of Obedience and Government he lays as a a blot on all of our Religion ; when as this Mr. White has not only been sharply used by the Catholicks of England , but he and this very Book were openly condemned by the Pope himself ; nor durst he since shew his head in any Catholique Countrey . Thus may be seen the Conscience of this Monsieur who would charge us with a crime , which at the writing he knew was false ; & from this son of Darkness has my Minister and others owned to have received their light ; and what kind of light it is , pray be pleased farther to observe . He tells us , b That a year before the Kings death a select Company of English Jesuits were sent from their whole Party to consult with the Faculty of Sorbon ( who you must know Reader , are the greatest Catholick Enemies the Society has in France ) whether they might lawfully make away the King. The Doctors answered affirmavely to the Question , being then stated in writing ; but afterwards when the Pope saw that the Kings Murther was decried by every body , he commanded tha Jesuits to burn all the Papers about the Question ; but one of them was shewed by a Papist to a Protestant . Yet for all this secrecy commanded by the Pope , Du Moulin tells us ( p. 58. ) that at Roan many Jesuited persons told a Protestant openly on the news of the Kings death , That they having often admonished the King from time to time to remember his promise at Marriage of becoming a Papist , were forc'd to take these courses for his destruction . After this History , he says ( p. 61. ) That the Friers at Dunkirk ) and by the way , there was never in that Town a House of English , Scotch , or Irish Friers ) told a Protestant Gentleman , that had a mind to pump them , That the Jesuits would fain engross the Honour of the Kings death to themselves ; but the truth was , they had laboured as effectually as the Jesuits to compass it . Then he tells , ( pag. 60. ) That thirty Jesuits neer Diep met a stranger ( a Protestant Gentleman ) on the Road and told him that they were going into England to be Agitators in the Independent Army . Good Protestant Reader , I am quite tired with this senceless stuff ; and if you think it false , consider what a jewel you have got from France ; but if you can deem it true , let me entreat you hereafter never to fear Jesuite or Priest ; for I am sure such prating fools can never do you harm . Besides , I wonder how it came to pass that all the Great Cavaliers caress't the Jesuits , and always employ'd them in much business during the Kings exile ; neither were they then , or the rest of the Popish Priests , less welcome to the Royallists of England , But pardon me , I beseech you Reader , if I use so many words about a matter that deserves so little ; yet I cannot but confess ▪ I am engaged to the Frenche Divine for being so notoriously malitious and foolish : nor did I ever think that Sir Walters discovery of the Plot in 1641. of blowing up the Thames to drown the City , could ever be parallell'd ; but here I now find it outdone . Have we not seen , Good Reader , that such ridiculous Stories as these have lately ruined the Kingdom ? and can any man believe if they once come in fashion again , they will end with Papists ? No doubtless , for both Church and Court will soon find the smart ; as by experience we begin to feel . For my own part , I should never have taken notice of Sieur du Moulin or his Book ; had not my Minister owned him , as I said , for his informer ; and now I see he has imitated him also in his method ; for my worthy Answerer calls me a Jesuite , and so the Dr. does Philanax , though I am confident he knows him to be a Lay-man , and a married man also . But now , Reader , it will not be amiss to tell you why this Mr. du Moulin is so angry with the Jesuites . You must know , that Petra Sancta ( a famous Writer in the Society ) a taxes the Drs Father for jugling , viz. for being in France a Presbyterian , and in England Episcopal , and so complying for gain with those Ceremonies which his Calvinistical Brethren abominated as superstitious . This old du Moulin ( his reverend father ; as the Dr. calls him ) writ a a Letter forsooth , as his son says , to the Rebels at Rochel , to exhort them to obey the King in breaking up their Assembly , which was then hatching the Rebellion that presently after broke out ; and yet ( though it has been lickt and amended , I doubt not , by the Doctor ) you may find , That a b ground of his perswasion was , because they were not strong enough to resist the King. and besides , the Reverend Divine in that perswasion to Loyalty , concludes , c Notwithstanding all he had said , they ought to look after their safety ; fort'was unreasonable for them to separate their Assembly with the peril of their persons . Of the same Loyal judgment also I find the Dr. himself ; for after all his rayling against Jesuites for Sedition , he confesses the Term was expired of the grant of the strong Places to the Hugonots ; Nevertheless , he says , they seem to d be justified for keeping those Towns , by the reason of the first Grant , which was to preserve them from their bitter Enemies . This was the Doctrine , you see , of this worthy Divine , who also vindicated the actions of the Reformed in Geneva , Holland , Germany , &c. and therefore I wonder not at his aspersing us for our service to our King and Country . 'T is not my business to run over all his Book in order , having one of his Disciples already to deal with ; but this I must tell him and the rest of his Tribe , That since they steal one from the other , none of their Fopperies shall go unanswered : and this they may find in some part or other of the present treatise . SECT . V. APOLOGY . Nor could any thing have ever grieved us more , then to have our Loyalty called into Question by you , even at the instigation of our greatest Adversaries . If we must suffer , let it be by you alone ; for that 's a double death to men of Honour , to have their Enemies not only accusers , but for their insulting Iudges also . ANSWER IV. His Objection here is , Men of Honour have no cause to fear either single or double Deaths ; and that Catholicks were never put to death in England for Religion , but for Treason . REPLY IV. Is not this pretty , that no body died in England for Religion , but for Treason ? and yet many hundred of Priests have been executed for no other crime , but being Priests . Nay , Lay-men have been hanged for being converted , and others for letting a Priest say Mass in their houses ; when as to hear Mass on Festivals every Catholique is in Conscience obliged , if he can . Besides , have not many Catholiques also suffered for believing the Pope to be Head of the Church ? By this Argument then , if the Parliament should make it Treason ( as who knows but they may ? ) to hold Episcopal Ordination only valid , or that the King cannot give Orders ; it might then be as well said , that they ( that are executed in pursuance of that Law ) died for Treason , and not for their Religion . But lest the Minister ( that has the boldness in almost every Paragraph to deny apparently known things ) might to deceive his Acquaintance still say , I have not proved what I assert : Not to trouble my Reader with many citations , take this one example out of a John Stow , that downright & plain Historian . He tells us , That fourteen Papists were at a clap executed ; six only for being made Priests beyond Sea , and remaining here ; four Lay-men only for being reconciled ; and four more , only for abetting or relieving the others . Now if that be sufficient for the justice of the procedure , to say there are Laws to this purpose enacted , then most certain it is , that the Primitive Christians were all Traytors , being banisht by the lawful Magistrate from several places where they taught , and knowing also many particular Injunctions against their Preaching and seducing the Emperors Subjects , as the Ethnicks were pleased to call it . Nay , the Great St. Alban our famous Proto-Martyr was executed ( as may be seen in the Martyrology ) for being ( contrary to Dioclesians Laws ) converted to the Faith , and abetting or entertaining in his House the Priest Amphibalus , which Priest was his Spiritual Instructor , according to Mr. Cambden in his famous Treatise b of Brittain . SECT . IV. APOLOGY . These are they that by beginning with us , Murthered their Prince , and wounded you : And shall the same method continue by your approbation ? We are sure you mean well , though their Design be wicked . But let it never be recorded in Story , that you forgot your often Vows to us ▪ in joyning with them that have been the cause of so great calamity to the Nation . ANSWER V. He urges , that by saying the Kings Murtherers began with us Catholicks , we take liberty of bestowing Characters on whom we please ; so that no body must act against us , lest they be thought to continue the Method of the Kings Murtherers . For Vows , he says , we Catholicks are more sure of those of Protestants to us , then they of ours to them , because they want a Pope to dispence with them . REPLY V. Pray , Reader , upon mature consideration tell me now , whether they were not the Kings Murtherers that pursued Papists in the beginning of the War ? Their design afterward , I am sure plainly appeared ; and pray God those were not of the same Tribe , who first promoted our late troubles . Let me ask also , whether you find not us at home and abroad as strict to our promises as any other you converse with . But since this Minister upbraids us with our dispensing with Vows , be pleased to consider who has been most busy , the Romish or Protestant Pope herein . The Papists have from the beninning refused the Oath of Allegeance as 't is now worded , but the Reformed took it in all the degrees of preferment , viz. when graduated in the Universities , when admitted into Orders , when Justices of Peace , when Parlimament-men ; and in short , when any Dignity either in Church or State is conferred . Yet for all the often repetition of it , half the Kingdom were in Rebellion against the King , even directly contrary to what they had sworn . Now on the other side , there was no Papist that declared not for the King , though all the Party ( as I said ) refused the Oath , and for this refusal severely suffered both in their Estates and Persons . Besides , if it were a Doctrine amongst us ( as the Protestants state it ) that the Pope can when he pleases absolve us from our Oaths , why should we then ( do you think ) refuse the taking of this ? Doubtless a Dispensation ( if it could be granted ) might be procured at less charge then two thirds of our Estates , omitting all corporal punishments . Oaths by our Tenets are not in themselves unlawful , nor can it be out of want of zeal for our Prince that we refuse them ; since 't is plain , that we all , like one man , stood by him in his great affliction and misery . You must know , Reader , this Oath was framed by one Perkins an Apostate Jesuite , who knowing what we could take , and what not , purposely mingled certain truths with uncertain speculative points , to make us fall within the Law of refusal ▪ T would be tedious to shew all the real exceptions we have to it , nor do any of them truly relate to our obedience to the King ; for as to the Allegeance , I would be bound to word an Oath , which no Papist shall scruple at , and yet it shall be more strong then this . But , Reader , to give you my opinion of Oaths ( though nevertheless I am not for taking away that laudable Custome of swearing Subjects ) I think them really useless , where without them ( as in Allegeance ) we are naturally bound : for honest men will be punctual in duty , though they never swore ; when as the wicked can at no time be obliged , let the Bond be never so Sacred . SECT . 6. APOLOGY . Of all Calumnies against Catholicks , we have admired at none so much , as that their Principles are said to be inconsistent with Government , and they themselves thought ever prone to Rebellion . ANSWER VI. On this short Paragraph he makes a wonderful long Discourse , saying , That 't is a calumny of ours to call that a calumny , which is true : for first , our Councels ; secondly , our Decretals ; thirdly , our Divines teach , that the Pope has Power to depose Kings , and to discharge Subjects of their Allegeance , which Doctrines are inconsistent with Government . But every Papist is bound to beleive their Councels , Decretals , and Divines : Ergo , we may well be thought prone to Rebellion . REPLY . 6. To answer to these things perspicuously , I shall treat of them singly . Object . 1. That our General Councels decree this , he proves by the Lateran Councel under Innocent the III. which expresly ordains , he says , That in case any Prince be a favourer of Hereticks , after admonition given , the Pope shall discharge his Subjects from their Allegeance , and shall give away the Kingdome to some Catholique , that may root out these Heretiques . I grant that the sense of the words is in the Councel , and that in determinations of Faith Councels are infallible . But as for other matters , we say not , that Councels are infallible in every point , even in matter of Fact. Besides , Councel's ordinations are to be taken according to the prudent meaning of the Legislators , and oftentimes beare another sense then the bare words taken as they lie , and weighed out of due circumstances seeme to signifie . Nor will this seem strange to an English University man , since they grant , that in some matters God is not pleas'd that the Scripture it self should in it's obvious sense be taken as infallible , for no body will there say , that all the Philosophy in the Bible is unquestionable , or that the Mathematicks of it is to a Tittle just . The Molten Sea is described to be a ten Cubits ( in diameter ) from brim to brim , and that it was round , and that a line of thirty cubits did compass it . Now who is it ( having read less then the first six Books of Euclid ) but can demonstrate that this is not altogether exact ? The Blood is not now thought by their learn'd Physitians to be the b life of a Creature but the Vehicle . Nor do their Astronomers believe that the Stars are less then the Sun or Moon , though in Genesis they are called the two c great Lights . The solution to these Objections is easie , and in every Sophisters mouth , viz. that the Holy Pen-men writ of such matters , either briefly ( as that measure of a Circle is to this day ordinarily express'd ) or else according to the Hypothesis or Opinion then assented to by the World. But where this Sacred Word speaks to us doctrinally , 't is to be believed on pain of Damnation : so a Councel when it determines of faith , we are to reverence those determinations as coming from the Holy Ghost . Neverthelesse it 's other Constitutions , being but humain lawes , are changeable , and oftentimes admit several exceptions ; nor doe they alwais bring with them such an inevitable obligation , that there is not possible way to avoid it's bond . For Promulgation &c must precede . This plainely appeares by the Councel of Trent , to the doctrine whereof all Catholiques whatsoever submit though the rest of it's Decrees bind not in France , no in any place els , where they are yet unreceived . But the case now in controversie needs not all this : for I suppose the Minister will not deny , but that the Emperors of the East and West , the Kings of England , Frāce , Hungary , Jerusalem , Cyprus , Arragon , &c. may agree together ( if they please ) to purge their Kingdoms of Heresie , and upon failure , that the Church shall give their Dominions to another that will perform the compact . These Princes , Reader , that I have named were a present ( by their Embassadors ) at this Councel and what was there done , was by their consent , the Albigensian Heresie beginning then to be somewhat numerous . Nor did those Monarchs thinke themselves in a worse condition for this Ordination . Moreover we never heard that any Catholique King since ever did Protest , or exclaim against the Councel ; which doubtless they would have done , had they been in any dangerby it . On the cōtrary we know , that Mariana ( as the Minister confesses ) was condemned , for barely inclining to the opinion of thus deposing Kings ; which judgmēt could not have pass'd against him , had this been by any Councel adjudged an Article of Faith. 'T were a mortal sin in me , and I should presently incur all Ecclesiastical censure , if I did deny Transubstantiation , by reason it is an Article of Faith , and so declared by this very Lateran Councel : but as for the absolute powre of deposing Kings , it is held by severall as a meere opiniō , and opposed by many as fals , nor wil Divines say , they are the worse Catholicks for it . Certāly it were not unlawful , if the Princes and States ( that own themselves Christians ) should now in an Assembly agree ( by reason they saw Judaism or Turcism encreasing ) that every one of them must do what he could to hinder this growth , and in case any was found favouring it , his Dominions should be given to another . This , I say , without doubt is lawful ; and though it were not made to bind our Posterity , yet it might be hoped that the zeal of so sacred an Assembly would make Governours hereafter diligent to weed out all Infidelity . What therefore was here ordered , was to oblige the Kings , who by compact acknowledg'd the procedure ; and 't was also imagined , that succeeding Catholique Princes would be more careful to keep their people from error , when they should call to mind that this was agreed to in a Councel where the East and West met , ( a for the Patriarch's of Constantinople and Hierusalem were present , Antioch and Alexandria sent deputies ) and which consisted of 77. Primates , 412. Bishops , and above 800. Abbots and Priors ; besides the Embassadors of so many Monarchs ; all which put together , makes this to be the greatest Councel that ever was . Much more could I say concerning this Councel , and many other considerations ( for brevities sake ) I am forced to pass by . But Pray , Reader , before I end , let me mind you of this , That the Popes never give away ( as men call it ) a Kingdom from a Prince simply Heretical , but from one that is an Apostate , and so revolted from the Church . For we see that Hen. 8. was condemned , yet nothing was done to his Son Edw. 6. And again , though Queen Elizabeth , ( who went to Mass in Queen Maries time , and also had actually owned the Pope , by keeping her Embassadour in the beginning at Rome ) was deprived of Soveraignty by the Bull of Pius Quintus ; yet no censure past against King James , K. Charles the first , or this present Monarch : and the reason is , because they always professed themselves Protestants , and never acknowledged his Holiness as their Bishop and Pastor . Therefore Protestāt Magistrates have no reasō to fear either Pope or Papists . The Answerer having urged this Councel , to vilisie it the more , tells us , 't was Innocent the III. who there presided , that deposed our K. John , and Otho IV. : and then runs extravaganly to a forraign thing , in hopes to make it more disgustful , viz. that this Councel which made Rebellion a duty , made Transubstantiation an Article of Faith. Concerning King John , I have told you before , that Popes as private Doctors may err , nay it is not certaine , that without a Councel they are infallible even in their interpretations of faith ; much more therfore they are liable to err in their actions . Neither doe I canonize or approve whatsoever Popes have done in deposing Kings . And if some Popes have transgress'd , it follows not that all have , no more then because some Princes have been Tyrants , their Predecessors and Successors must be so too . Differences between Kings and Popes , I consider as between Man and Wife ▪ for in all Quarrels the right can be but on one side ; yet it happens through humane imbecility , and revenge , that the most injured often commits some absurdity or other , by which the Peccant party may gain a very seeming advātage . No brave English King needed to have more feared Popes , then they needed to have feared their other gaping Neighbours . This Prince , Protestant Historians conclude to be the least deserving of all our Governours ; for ( passing by his a youthful Rebellion , the b Murthering of his Nephew , his c Atheism , &c. which they record ) 't is he that lost our whole interest ( either by Conquest or Matches ) in d France , and discontenting all his People , never obliged any body that I heard of , unless the Mayor and Corporation of e Lynne . This yet is no excuse to the Pope , but shews only the unhappiness of the Nation , that it had not a more generous Prince ( for Sr. Rob : Cotton f call's him a licentious soueraigne ) to defend our Rights and Priviledges . Now for Transubstantiation , it is true that in this Councel the word was first made Authoritatively use of , as in the Councel of Nice , the word Trinity ; but the sence and meaning of both Trinity and Transubstantiation was in the Scripture , and held from age to age : Nay , the word Transubstantiation it self was used by g grave Authors in Writings before . Object . 2. Concerning the Decrees and Bulls of Popes , he says , that from Gregory VII , they made such a trade of deposing Kings , that no weak King could wear his Crown , but at the Popes curtesie ; and that Boniface VIII . declares in these words ▪ We say , and define , and pronounce , that it is absolutely necessary to salvation for every creature to be subject to the Bishop of Rome . To this I answer , that in the next Century ( or a little more ) after K. John , there were more weak Kings in England then eiher before or since , viz. Hen. 3. Edw. 2. Ric. and yet the Popes did not offer to take away their Crowns , or ever stirred to perplex them , though their wicked Subjects gave the Pope opportunity enough . Nay , though Hen. 3. denied any acknowledgment upon the gift of King John , yet the Pope assisted him against the Rebellious Barons . And for the composition of Edward the Seconds troubles , his Holiness sent him two a Cardinals , but the Rebels would not accept of their Mediation , as knowing them too much of the Kings Party . Besides , I told you again and again , that the Popes Decrees and Bulls are not alwayes held infallible : and may be opposed , as they often have been by stiff and Religious Papists ; nor will good Catholiques scruple to do it , especially about Temporal affairs . And if Popes should speak in such a Dialect ( as the Minister urges ) they mean subjection in Spiritual matters . 3. Object . Among the Divines that agree to the deposing of Kings , he mentions some Jesuites , as Bellarmine , Suarez , Valentia , Parsons or Creswel ; Mariana also he names , though he confesses him cōdemned . Out of these he cites several places to this purpose viz. As Jehojada deposed Athaliah , so may Popes deal with Kings . To this I say , Let the Jesuites answer for their own Doctrine , for I am sure they are of age , and able also ; neither did they ever tell me otherwise , but that I might reject such and the like opinions , they being only the private fancies of some of their Order . It has never been my study to pore upon Schoolmen , nor is it worth my pains now to search Libraries , whether they have said so or no ; which truly I do very much doubt of . For my part , I cannot think Jesuites such King-haters , because Kings would then hate them ; when as on the contrary we see all Princes caress them , and make them their Confessors . At this time the Jesuites are in this Office to the Emperor , the Queen of England , the King of France , the Queen Regent of Spain , the King of Poland , and as I take it , to the now King of Portugal ; for they belonged thus to the late old King and Queen of that Kingdom : the Dukes of Bavary , Newburgh , and many other great Princes of Germany are also their Penitents ; all which considered , I must look upon Jesuites in general to be faithfuller Subjects then Protestants imagine ; for Kings though Papists are not always fools . But , suppose Jesuites were Villains ; what is that to the Catholick Faith ? must Cambridge be Babylon , and the English Religion false , because the Mēbers of one Colledge ( suppose Emanuel ) were thought knaves and hypocrites ? The other Divines and Canonists whom the Minister urges , are Baronius , Bertrand ; Lancelotus , Peron , Rossaeus , who say ( according to his citations ) things to the same purpose about deposing of Kings . All this put together , Reader , is the force of his Argument . The Objection about Councels and Bulls , you see is nothing ; about Divines I have already given you a touch , but now I will handle it a little fuller . You must know ( the Soul of man being so sublime and towring ) there is no profession in the world , but that the wits of it aim to resolve all difficulties that can be proposed in the Science . This makes Philosophers Metaphysicians , and Schoolmen run into those seeming odd subtleties , with which their writings are cram'd . In the like manner Casuists ( thinking it a disgrace not to be able to answer something to whatever can be proposed ) treat in their Books about all Cases which their nimble fancies can start . Among many impertinent niceties and curious Questions , this of deposing Apostatizing Princes comes to be handled ; some perchance are for it others in may be against it . Now ▪ because some have adjudged , That upon a notorious falling away , the Church may give to the sound the Dominions of the infected sheep , lest the whole slock might be tainted : immediately the Minister and other Protestants declare , that the dethroning of Kings is the Catholique Doctrine . I am sure this was not so absolutely agreed to by the English Protestāts themselves ( at least in discourse ) that there could be none found among them , who have favoured the opinion which we are said to hold : how many well-meaning men fought against Charles the I , only because they falsely thought him a Papist ? and I my self have heard those of condition say , when the King was abroad , that should the Pope and his crew peruert him , they would oppose his return . There was no danger of this , because his Majesty ( like his Father and Grādfather ) has so great a veneration for Protestantism ; but yet this that I urge was frequently spoke of and no body that reads this , but has heard such discourses often ▪ What has been done about Religion in this our Country , I shall tell you a hereafter ; and at present I shall shew you that we Papists are not the only Rebel-teachers , but that there are Reformists that profess this Divinity also . b Luther says , You complain that by our Gospel the World is become tumultous . I answer , God be thanked ; these things I would have be , and wo me miserable , if they were not . a Zwinglius . If the Roman Empire , or what other Soveraignty soever , should oppress the sincere Religion , and we negligently suffer the same , we shall be charged with contempt no less then the oppressors themselves ; whereof we have an example in 15. Jer. where the destruction of the people is Prophesied , because they suffered their K. Manasses , being ungodly , to be unpunisht . b Calvin . Earthly Princes do hereave themselves of Authority when they erect themselves against God : yea , they are unworthy to be accounted in the number of men , therefore we must rather spit in their faces then obey them , Passing by what c Beza did in France ( Davila often mentions . ) He writ a Book of the Power of Magistrates , which Mr. Sutcliffe confesses , armed Subjects against their Prince . d Sundry Englishmen writ wholly of this Argument : That the Councellors , and rather then fail , the very people were bound to reform Religion whether the Queen would or no , though it were by putting her to death . I shall trouble you , Reader , with no more Citations ( of which our Books are full ) for I content my self with naming these of the greatest eminency : and certainly the opinions of these Doctors may be more justly charged upon Protestants in general , then the opinions of private Catholicks upon us ; because Luther , Zwinglius , Calvin and Beza were the first Reformers : and if the Spirit of God taught them so much truth ; as they are said to preach , why should this be more questionable then the rest ? Therefore the Pope being Pharaoh , and Popery Egypt ( as Ministers daily affirm in their Pulpits ) we may well say , These are thy Gods , O Israel , which brought thee out of the land of Egypt . These Apostles rested not in the Theory , but fell to the Practice also : for whereas the Popes since the first rise of the Reformation , never gave away ( evenby word ) but two Crowns , viz. England and France ; the Reformed have actually deposed the absolute Princes of Scotland , Denmark , Swedeland and Geneva ; have ravisht also from their lawful Governours , the Low-Countreys , Transylvania , and many Towns , which are now called Free. And for Rebellion and Tumults , they have been eminent in Poland , Boheme , Hungary , France , Germany ? and in short , in all places where this Gospel has been preacht . This every Historian can tell you ; nay , blind Mr. Heylin plainly saw it , therefore did all he could ( when these Countries in his Geography were to be handled ) to purge the Reformed from the Rebellion truly laid to their charge : but finding that washing a Blackmore was labour in vain , he was forced ( with his Brother Sleidan ) to fly for shelter to this abominable and prodigious Argument , a viz. That Christ foretold , that Fathers should be against their sons , and brothers against brothers for his sake ; and that we find not in any Story , the true Religion was induc'd , or corrupt about to be amended without War and Bloodshed . It is true , the lawful Protestant Church of England teaches no such Doctrine ; but this I do not much wonder at , for why should men ( the King being so absolute in Spirituals ) run the risk to be undone for venting such notions , when as their Monarchs have been so strict Professors of their Religion ? The test of this would be , if the Prince and people were different , or like to be so in Faith and Worship . 〈◊〉 what the English have done herein wh●● this has happened , I will shew you , 〈◊〉 said , a by and by . For my part , I look upon the English to be the most well-meaning and most Religious people in the World ; and it is that ▪ which makes them all so violent in what their Conscience tells them is true . This made Papists so earnest for their Religion , which had governed England so long in glory . This made Protestants fierce to root out what they thought Idolatry . This made Presbyterians desire to have Prelatick Superstition reformed ; and this made Independents and their brood cry down every thing , standing stiffly ( as they imagined ) for the Kingdom of Iesus Christ . I say , this great sincerity and zeal , makes all our Countrymen so violent : which good intention , wicked people taking advantage of , have caused so many disturbances among us ; nor can Sectaries ever be quiet , till they are convinc'd that some Church or other is infallible . Thus , Reader , have I answered to this strange Calumny against us , That our Principles are inconsistent with Govenment ; by shewing that deposing of Kings is no part of the Catholick Faith ( which Catholique Princes do very well know ) and also , that in Doctrine and Practice , the Reformed have been ( wheresoever they came ) far more faulty then we . SECT . VII . APOLOGY . My Lords and Gentlemen , Had this been a new Sect not known before , something perchance might have been doubted ; but to lay this at their doors that have governed the civilized World , is the Miracle of Miracles to us . ANSWER VII . Here he says , that they that have read most , and have had the most experience , can best cure ●s of the wonder ; and that K. Iames ( who had reason to know us ) said in the Parliament , That there were some that might be honest of the Party , being ignorātly seduced ; but they that truly knew our Doctrines , could never be good Subjects . Then he asks when it was that we governed the civilized World ? For he says , the Eastern , and Southern Churches never were under our Government , nor the Western neither , but when ignorant and barbarous . REPLY VII . Now I plainly see the design of this Minister is ( to the end his flock may believe every thing answered ) to say something to each Paragragh , let it be never so frivolous . Who is it , Reader , that having read History is ignorant of the great power the Bishop of Rome had over the East , as the Greek Fathers tell us ? for wee read in Eusebius that Pope Victor ( about anno 200. ) Excomunicated the Eastern Church for not keeping Easter the Roman way . and this Grimston also has in his account of Popes . Or who knows not of the Appeals from Africk , when matters of moment arose , even in the most acknowledged Primitive times ? But I ask your pardon for asserting this , because in the Primitive times , they say , the Popes themselves were Protestants . Yet though this were so , I wonder the Minister should be so forgetful of the Great Antichrist Boniface the III , who is baited by every Shoolboy . This arrant Pope lived above a 1000. years aago , and not only called himself Universal Bishop , but was owned so too by Phocas the Universal Emperor as all Protestants declare . Might not then a man modestly say , that Popery governed the civilized World , when it governed the whole World ? But I ▪ d of willingly forgive a man this , that has the confidence to say that we did not govern the Western World , till it grew ignorant and barbarous . It may be he means that those Parts have been so ever since Christs time , otherwise ( till this late Reformation ) there was never any Government on this side Greece , that denied the Popes Jurisdiction ; and Greece it self owned it in the Councel of Lateran , and in Hen. 3. time also , as Protestant b Sir Richard Baker testifies . Ever since Rome made het self Mistress of all Arts and Sciences , the West took the name of the only civilized place : Therefore had he understood civility , he would not have made so simple a cavil ; and I dare say , he is the first Protestāt Writer ( though they have been as bold as Hectors in their denials ) that has affirmed the Church of Rome never governed the civilized World. But since this Minister mentions here Popish ignorance , I must desire the Reader , if he knows any of our Profession in the Country , to tell me , whether generally speaking , they are not esteemed more learned then their Neighbours of the same rank and degree . I am sure they that live at London , are thought by their Protestant Acquaintance as well bred , and as greate scholars as any of their condition with whom they usually converse . Concerning our Priests , consult their Books , and tell me then , whether they have been out done or no : and if any English man would know how they are abroad , let them go but to his next Neighbours the French , and there in every Diocess , he shall find a Clergy not only learned to admiration , but so far outgoing the Hugonot-Ministers , that one would think they lived not in the same Clime or Region . Nay , what is yet more , there is neither private nor publick Library in this very Island , but seven of ten of the choice Books in all Sciences were writ by Catholicks . Is not this , Good Reader , strange ignorance , for Protestants to be thus deceived , and implicitly led on by their Pastors contrary to what they hear and see ? This , I must say , is incredible blindness , and exceeds that of the silliest Papists , who if they are cozened , it must be in things beyond their capacity , or by distance far remote from them . But now in England nothing is more common , then to have wise Protestants run into this and the like fond fancies ; and at last when they can say no more , they are fain to shift it off with this Phanatical evasion , That it is true , Papists are carnally , but not spiritually learned . SECT . V. APOLOGY . Did Richard the first , or Edward Longshanks suspect his Catholicks that served in Palestine , and made our Countries Fame big in the Chronicles of all ages ? or did they mistrust ( in their dangerous absence ) their Subjects at home because they were of this Profession ? Could Edward the third imagine those to be Trayterous in their Doctrine , that had that care and duty for their Prince , as to make them ( by Statute ) guilty of death in the highest degree , that had the least thought of ill against the King ? Be pleased that Henry the fifth be remembred also , who did those Wonders of which the whole World does still resound ; and certainly all History will agree in this , that 't was Old-Castle he feared , and not those that believed the Bishop of Rome to be Head of the Church . ANSWER VIII . To this he says , the Reigns of these Kings were in the dark times of corruption ; yet that Richard I. bequeathed his Pride and Lechery to the Clergy and Monks . That Edward I. outlawed the Clergy , for obeying the Pope in not paying Taxes . That Edward III , and Hen. V. made good Laws against the Popes usurpation : and Becket vext Hen. II more ▪ then Hen. V feared Oldcastle . Moreover , that all these Kings did not differ so much from Protestants , as the Papists now do : and to conclude , he asks , did not the Pope force K. Iohn to do homage for England , wrestle with Edward the first for Scotland , and often lay claim to Ireland ? REPLY . 8. Certainly , Reader , the Minister is besides himself , since he can say the English differed not so much from the Protestants then ▪ as we do now . Has the man railed all this while against the Tyranny of Popes , and urged those times as the height of their Authority ; and then comes to this evasion ? I would fain know , if the Clergy and Religious were since ever more in power then in those days ? was there ever more of Pilgrimages and all sorts of Devotion , which Protestants call Superstitious ? were not Schoolmen then most in their splendor ? And lastly , could any Publican Lollard , Wickliffian , or new Sect stir , but the whole Kingdom presently detested them ? Who then will ever believe a word more he says , when he is so strangely impudent to no purpose ? But these are the worthy tricks used to keep the poor people in ignorance ; and just with as ▪ much truth are the Fathers called defenders of the Protestant Religion : for the Fathers stiled them always Hereticks that ran out of the visible Church . For the Laws that have been made by any of our Kings if they made any against Ecclesiastical usurpations , God reward them ; and to this all Catholicks will say , Amen . Concerning K. John we have already spoke enough . And for the Popes claim to Scotland , judge , Reader , whether any man can be fuller of falsity and malice then this Minister , my Adversary . For here he would have the World think ( by his placing this Accusation after King Johns business , and by calling it the Popes wrestling with Edward I. for the Soveraignty of Scotland ) there was some notorious injustice done by the Sea of Rome . In short , the business was only this , as you may find in Hollingshead , the most violent English Historian against Papists that ever yet writ . The Scots having always an animosity against the English , and not knowing how to resist the Victorious Arms of Edward , who was again coming with a great Army against them , surrendred the Kingdom , ( or so pretended ) to Boniface . 8. He thereupon sent to the King to desist , because the Crown belonged to the Church . Edward immediately returned an Answer , and so did all the Barons of England , to manifest the Kings right , and the invalidity of the new pretence . The Pope ( says a Hollingshead ) when he deliberately pondered the Kings Answer , with the Letter from the English Barons , waxt cold in the matter , and followed it no farther . Thus , Reader , you see how the case stood , and how Catholiques are wronged by ill men ; nor is there any difference between a false aggravation , and a downright lye . In the same manner are we used in this Accusation of Ireland ; for the Pope never medled with Ireland but since the Reformation , and so invaded it in the time of Queen Elizabeth , of which you shall see farther in the a Section of Popish misdemeanors in her Reign . The parity between S. Th. Becket and Oldcastle is doubtless very odd ; the last being a Rebel ( with Complices in arms ) against b Henry the fifth : the other disputing only about Priviledges , which he said were grāted to Priests . Just as if our Peers should stād upon the freedome of their Persons , were there a design to have them imprisoned as other Subjects , or tried by a common Jury . Besides , all Princes of Christendome then , owned Becket for a Saint ; when as no body ( unless such a man as Fox ) thought Oldcastle deserved any thing but the Gallows . SECT . IX . APOLOGY . We will no longer trouble you with putting you in mind of any more of our mighty Kings , who have been feared abroad , and as safe at home as any since the Reformation of Religion . We shall only add this , that if Popery be the enslaving of Princes , France still believes it self as absolute as Denmarck or Sweden . ANSWER IX . He says , the King of France will believe what he pleases . For his Majesty well knows the Pope gave away France formerly , fomented War against Hen. 4. and would do the same against him , were it not for his Power and Religion . REPLY IX . I shewed you before in the sixth Reply , that though the Reformed have actually taken away from their lawful Governours so many Dominions , yet the Pope never gave away but England and France which nevertheless are still under their proper Soveraigns . Consider then , whether ( since the light of the Gospel appeared ) the Protestant or Popish manner of dealing has been most destructive to Princes : and judge if this be an Answer to my demand , which was , Whether France acknowledging the Pope , be not as absolute as Sweden or Denmark that are Protestants ? If so , it follows then , that Popery does not enslave a King. We are beholden to the Minister , for confessing the King of France is of the same Religion with the Pope : for I have heard some in England say , he was a Protestant . Thanks be to God , there is no danger of a breach between Rome and France in matters of Faith ; for ( as the very Gazets told us An. 1664 ) when the French Army was in Italy , The King ( having owned the condemnation of Jansenius ) even then sent to the Pope to prosecute the Jansenists in France . Henry the Eighth will be a warning to his Neighbours for revolting hereafter from the Church ; for instead of a little Ecclesiastical dependence on the Sea of Rome , he has embroiled England in perpetual confusion about Religion ; millions of Sects daily dividing and subdividing , each of which pretend they are in the right , and each quote Scripture for their Opinions . And by the way , Reader , be pleased to remember , that had not this King of ours destroyed Religious Houses , all the truly devout Sectaries at present would have voluntarily been cloister'd there , who now distract both the Kingdom & themselves ; for having no quiet place to vent that zeal which boyls within , they become a prey to a few wicked men , that blow up their well-meaning Piety into disorders and sedition . Nay , many of the discontented Factious ▪ themselves , who now lie open to the sway and hurry of their own passions , would have been glad of such a retreat , honorable to all , even from the Monarch to the Pesant . Therefore I see now why a Speed a Protestant ( when he made an end of his Catalogue of the destroyed Abbies ) spoke in this manner : We have laid to your view a great part of King Henry's ill , the waste of so much of Gods revenue , however abused , But Cambden is yet more tart , for he b says That many Religious places , Monuments of our Forefathers Piety and Devotion , to the honour of God , and Propagation of Christian faith , &c. were in a moment prophaned , c and the Riches disperst ▪ which had been consecrated to God since the English Nation first profest Christianity . SECT . X. APOLOGY . Nor will ever the House of Austria abjure the Pope , to secure themselves of the fidelity of their Subjects . ANSWER X. To this he says , the Austrian Family being so linckt to the Pope ( by possessing Naples , Sicily , and Navar by his Gift ) and theire Subjects also being Papists , it were a mad way to secure themselves by changing Religion . But what is that , says he , to England , where since the extrusion of that trash ( we call the Catholick Faith ) the King and people are no more Papists ; and having been often troubled by us , have reason by experience to fear our designs ? REPLY . V 10. To this I reply , That the Spaniard being now in actual possession , can as well defend these places ( were he a Protestant ) as Millan , Flanders , &c. which are not the Popes gift ; or as well as other Reformed Princes have done their Countries . And for the Subjects being Papists , that is nothing , For all subjects before Luthers time were Papists also . The Minister therefore grants me here all that from the first I desired . For if our former Kings were considerable abroad , and as safe at home , as since the change of Religion : If the King of France be as absolute as Denmarck or Sweden ; and if the House of Austria cannot better secure the fidelity of their Subjects by becoming Protestants , then by continuing Papists : I say , it must necessarily follow , That Kings and Kingdoms by being Papists are not less absolute then if Reformed : and by the same Consequence , their Subjects not one whit faithfuller to their Lords by being Protestants , then if they were Papists . Tell me then , where is the Temporal advantage of Reformation ? and whether our Answerer has not bauld long in vain ; since he now by this grants me , that Kings may be absolute , and Subjects faithful under Popery : and yet lately he affirmed , That Popery is inconsistent with Government , by reason of Princes dependence on the Pope in Ecclesiastical matters ; and that all Papists are prone to Rebellion , by the Determination of our Councels , Bulls and Divines . But the Minister says , What is all this to England , where Prince and people are Protestants ? I answer , 't is thus much to England , That now it is plain , 't is an errour that Popery is inconsistent with Government ; and it also shews that Princes get no power ( in the long-run ) by reforming , but on the contrary , perpetual disorders follow . How dangerous we have been to our Protestant Princes , shall be discust in the Reflexion on the Popish a misdemeanours in the Reigns of Queen Elizabeth and King James : But how faithful and serviceable we were to King Charles the First and Second , all Europe has sufficiently declared in our behalves . SECT . XI . APOLOGY . We shall always acknowledge to the whole World , that there have been as many brave English in this last Century , as in any other place whatsoever . Yet since the exclusion of the Catholick Faith , there has been that committed by those , who would be fain called Protestants , that the wickedest Papist at no time dreamt of . ANSWER XI . Here he asks what may that be ? for four or five of our Kings of our own Religion have been murthered by Papists : that lately Hen. 4. of France was killed by Ravillac ; and. Hen. 3. by Frier Clement . And besides this , we have killed by whole Townships in England , Ireland , France , and Piedmont . REPLY 11. What a Volume might there be here writ , if every matter mentioned were to be fully discust ? But these are the artifices of the Brethren , that when they know not what to say , run to another thing , in hopes to puzzle an ordinary Reader , who cannot imagine ( hearing so great a buzze ) but that there must be something at least of real . My assertion in the Apology was , That our former English Papists never did such villanies as have been committed since the Reformation . To this he answers nothing , but impertinently runs to the private Murthers of some of our Kings . Is this proportionable , Good Reader ? Who knows not that the Murtherers of Ed. 2. Ric. 2. and Hen. 6. were so conscious of their wickedness , that all was done in the dark ; nor would they ever own otherwise then that they dyed without violence . For t was given out that the death of the first of these Princes came by extreame a Griefe . That the other b Starved himselfe , and that the last died of a Naturall c sicknesse But the execution of the Queen of Scots was bare-fac'd in the sight of the World , and which was more , under the cloak of Law. My Lord of Leicester was sensible of the dishonour that would accrew to the Nation , and therefore sent Walsinhham d a godly Divine to satisfie his conscience , that it was lawful to poyson her ; but the Minister could no more convince his penitent , then the Saints could Harrison about the clandestine Murther of the Grandchild . And doubtless the whole intrigue against . Q. Mary gave precedent and boldness to our execrable Parricides , openly to do their detestable villany in a formal method and manner . This procedure against the Queen , contrary , as 't was imagined , to the Law of Nations ( she being both a Guest and an absolute Princess ) drew an universal odium upon the Kingdom , a for the Reproach was entailed on the whole nation by the apparition of a mimicall and Counterfeit justice , as Osborne call's it : nor did any Englishman , either Papist or Protestant ever misse to be upbraided with it abroad ; till the greatness of the abomination against King Charles made them leave off a little speaking of the first , to remember us more piquantly of the last . Is it to excuse the two unheard of 〈◊〉 that he tell ; me of four or five Kings since the Conquest made away by Papists ? It may be it is that I should again retort , that ( since Hen. 8. Reign ) there were but b four Protestestant Monarchs , and three of them were said to come to violent deaths . But what is Ravillac's murther of Hen. 4. to us in England , more then to Saxony , the poysoning of Edw. 6. by the Lord Robert Dudly , for so a Sir Richard Baker conceives he hid . I know Clement the Frier destroyed Hen 3. so did Judas his Master ; and yet neither the Disciples , nor Christian Religion were ever thought the worse for it . For the Murther of the Protestants in Irelād I shew'd you in the b beginning , how we detested it . Cōcerning the Blood spilt in Frāce , I shall speak at large in the Paragraph about that c Massacre . But I wonder the Piemōthusiness should be unged by Royallist ; for I remēber when Crōwel made a Collectiō for thē in pretence , but for himself in reality , the Cavaliers ever stiled them Rebels , and said , the Duke of Savoy was necessitated for his quiet to subdue them thus by Arms. Yet for all their hard usage , I wish we had as much freedome as they . Now for Queen Maries Reign , which this man so often calls the Bloody days , I will here speak a little , eternally to stop his mouth hereafter . First , d Reformed Historians agree , that the Queen her self was a marveillous good woman , therefore it was not she , but her Bishops that were cruel . Again , every Englishman knows , that no man can be put to death amongst us without Law ; therefore they were not the Bishops , but the Laws that were cruel : which Laws still continue , and have been made use of since the Reformation by Q. Elez. & K. ●ames to burne Hereticks . Yet for all these Laws there died of Protestants in the whole , but a 277. as Baker and b other Protestant Writers record . Besides , were these 277. now alive , 200. at least , in stead of pity , would be thrown into prison , and there rot for Non-conformists : but all things were called Saints in the dawning of the light even so much as Collins and his dog for Fox in his Act 's , and Monuments say's that Collins beeing mad , and seeing a Priest hold up the Host to the people , tooke a dog and held it up , as the Priest did the Host , for wch he and the dog were c burnt . Yet though this Collins be own'd by Fox to be mad , never the less he places him as a Martyr on the 10. of Octob. as may be seen in his Calendar . In the next place , let me know whether a man may be executed for this Tenets in Religion , or no ? If it be lawful , why might not Papists put to death men ( who they thought deserved it ) as well as Protestants ? If no man ought to suffer for his Conscience , why did a Edward 6. and Q. Eliz. condemn so many Hereticks in their time ? all which were executed , but some few that recanted ▪ and so saved their lives . Or why did K. James put to death b Legat and Wightman , but because he religiously thought it was unfit they should longer live to blaspheme ? Over and above these ( that died for a Religion of their own making ) I saw a Roll at Doway , wherein to the year 1632. there suffered out of that one House 105. Priests ; since which there died many out of the same Colledge . Add to these many out of the Portugal , Spanish , and Roman Seminaries , many of other Orders , and many Laymen also , who have been executed for owning the Pope in Spirituals , or for having a Priest say Mass in their Houses according to the obligation of their Consciences . If these were then all numbred , I am sure , there suffered many more Catholicks ( omitting the innumerable Confiscations ) by the Protestant Government , then ever there did Protestants by the Catholick . Nay , if together with Catholicks I should reckon all sorts of people that died for their Conscience though enemyes to Popery ( which may be found in Fox , Stow and others in the Reignes of Hen. 8. Ed. 6. and Queen Elizabeth ) it is evident , there has been more Blood spilt on a Religious account under our Princes that disowned the Pope , then by the Papists from St. Augustins Conversion to Luthers time . Iudge then , if Catholicks be so bloody as they are reported and thought . SECT . XII . APOLOGY . 'T was never heard of before , that an absolute Queen was condemned by Subjects , and those stiled her Peers ; or that a King was publiquely tried and executed by his own people and servants . ANSWER XII . Here he says , That the Q. of Scots was beheaded under Elizabeth by the same colour of right that Wallis suffered under Edw. 1. ( whom I call , he says , a brave Prince ) namely that of Soveraignty , which our Princes challenged over Scotland : but that King James and King Charles never imputed this to Q. Elizabeths Religion . Concerning King Charles's Murther , he says , that I would take it ill , a Turk should charge the Ministers faults and his Parties upon me ; but I do worse then a Turk , in charging these mens faults upon the Protestants : for the Murtherers were neither then , nor since of the Ministers Communion . He sayes , King Charles declared , he died for the Protestant Religion and Laws of the Land : that also in his Letter to the Prince , he says , none of the Rebels were Professors or Practicers of the Church of England , which gives no such Rules . REPLY XII . Nay , now I have quite geven over my Minister ; for though he had no regard of himself me thinks he might have had more respect for our King , then to parallel his Grand-mother with Wallis . You must know Reader that Edward the First by his valour conquered Scotland , and made all the Nobles swear Fealty to him . About Ann. 1300. ( when all things were thus at quiet ) up starts Wallis a a poore private Gentlemen , who though he had distressed the English a while , yet never so much as once pretended to the Crown , either by Sword , or Birth . Afterwards he was taken by our King , and b executed for his Insurrections . Is this man then a fit parallel with Mary Stuart , owned not only as Queen of Scots abroad , but by Queen Elizabeth her self also , who often sent and received Embassadors from her , with the same state , as was used to the King of France , or any other Potentate ? What King Iames and King Charles thought of the action , I know not ; but I wish it had never been done . Concerning the other part of his Answer : First , I did never charge the Kings Murther on any body , but those that were the Authors of it ; he knows best whether he was one of them or no : this I am sure of , he can falsifie , and ( to use Harrisons words ) blacken as well as the best of them , as you may see all a long , and especially in the next Section . Secondly , I do verily believe that King Charles died a sincere Protestant . And lastly , I am so far from laying any crime upon the Cavalier Protestants , that I think them as brave and as worthy Gentlemen , as any Nation bears . But this I must say , that the English Church ( though of an honest intention ) is built upon such Principles , that as long as it lasts , it will hatch a dissenting brood : and these graceless Children , upon every advantage will be ready to Rebel . This is then the benefit entailed by Hen. 8. Reformation ; which has ( as a Baker confesses ) so shaken the Church that it has stood indistraction ever since . SECT . XIII . APOLOGY . My Lords and Gentlemen , We know who were the Authors of this last abomination , and how generously you strove against the raging torrent ; nor have we any other ends to remember you of it , but to show that all Religions may have a corrupted spawn ; and that God hath been pleased to permit such a Rebellion , which our Progenitors never saw , to convince you perchance ( whom for ever may he prosper ) that Popery is not the only source of Treason . ANSWER XIII . Here he says , since we do know who were the Authors of the Abomination ; he desires us to be plain , for he thinks I have spoke more truth then every man is aware . Cardinal Richelieu , he says , began the Rebellion in Scotland : then it broke out in Ireland , blest with his Holiness Letters and Nuntio . Lastly , England we unsettled , by giving occasion of jealousies , which the Phanaticks made use of for their purposes . Besides all this , he says , the Murther of the King also was agreed on in the Councels of our Clergy and therefore in vain could the Royallists resist the raging Torrent . REPLY XIII . Lord , what blasphemies are here ! and what a heap of unsorted falsities are put together , without any probability or proof ! Because Richelieu a great Minister of State ( who intrigued in every Nation ▪ ) is supposed to have dealt with the Presbyterians of Scotland , the Papists of England were the cause of the Rebellion . This is rare Logick , especially every body knowing that fire and water agreed better then those Saints and we . I wonder the Papists were not guilty of the dangerous commotion anno 1666 in that Kingdom . But this is so ridiculous , that I should be more abominable then he , if I made more words of it ; Nor does that great Anti-Papist H. L. in his a Reigne of Ch. 1. scruple to write , that the Liturgy ( or Common Prayer ) was the Originall of the Scotch troubles . In the next place if the flame break out in Ireland , ( which Heath a Protestant historian b sayes can be noe where more imputable then to the Parliament's unwarantable proceedure against my Lord Strafford ) we in England are again the cause of it ; so that if forraign Catholicks , or forraign Protestants Rebel , still we must be the Authors , that never had any correspondence with either of these Nations , nor have to this day , as all the World sees . Well then may this man falsely charge the Pope who is remote , when he dares say thus of us who can so easily contradict his calumnies . Lastly , for England , he urges we were the occasion of jealousies , and they made the War. O ridiculous impudence ! If the majority of both Houses conspire against the King , suggest in open Debates fears of their own hatching , and at the same time with all violence persecute Papists , yet we are to be blamed , and causers of the Commotions . Certainly , this is like him that cursed the Lord Chancellour , because his horse stumbled . I am sure many grave men of your Coat ( Mr. Parson ) ingenuously confest , that it was the Translation of the Bible , or the too frequent reading of it by the ignorant ( which is a consequent of the Translation ) that caused our disorders . Consider now , Reader , this strange man : for if his malice had not exceeded all bounds , he would have told you , That the Non-conformists took root assoon as the Reformation : That Queen Elizabeths prudence kept them a little down : That in King James his Reign they grew much stronger ; and that great Statesmen have often blamed that wise Prince , because ( to keep things quiet in his Reign ) he occasioned the Tide to rush in with such irresistable force in our late unhappy times . Thus was this storm by knowing Pilots foreseen long ago . But would not a man now think this Minister had abused us sufficiently ? No , he must yet go farther , even The Kings death was agreed to in the Councels of our Clergy . Doubtelss he cannot mean our Priests by the word , for what did their agreeing signifie more , then if the Mayor of Quinborough and his Brethren agreed , that the Janizaries should strangle the Grand Seignior ? Had our Priests any power in England ? Were they not forced to skulk always in holes , and hanged as often as taken ? I am sure Iesuites , Seculars , and Friers were executed , no Order escaping , al being fish that came to net . But now I remember my self , Mr. Parson pretends to be skilled in Rhetorick , and perchance he uses a Trope of his own making ; that is , That because two Negatives make an affirmative , or a thing contrary to themselves ; therefore his four falsities in this one Section , shall dubb an irrefragable truth opposite to each single assertion . The Ministers meaning then it seems is this , That in stead of our being false to the State , We have been most intirely faithful to our King and Country . Good Reader , I must ask you pardon , for saying any thing against these vain and groundless cavils ; seeing the whole World knows , that never were men more earnestly Loyal then we . Beware therefore of this man , for it was he , or some of the like Principles , that ( out of malice against the late King ) wickedly ▪ divulged , That his Majesty had underhand caused the Irish Rebellion : that he had a mind to bring in Popery , and to enslave the Nation , had sent for an Outlandish Guard. Thus cried the English Rebels against their glorious Prince ; and thus now invents this Minister Stories , to mischief , if he can , his innocent fellow-Subjects and Country-men . And who can be guiltless , if assertions without any shadow of proof shall be received against him ? SECT . XIV . APOLOGY . Little did we think ( when your Prayers and ours were offered up to beg a blessing on the Kings Affairs ( ever to see that day , in which Carlos , Gifford , Whitgrave , and the Pendrels should be punished by your desires for that Religion , which obliged them to save their forlorn Prince ; and a stigmatized man for his offences against King and Church , chief promoter of it . Nay , less did we imagine , that by your Votes Hudlestone might be hanged , who again secured our Soveraign ; and others free in their fat possessions , that sat as Juddes , and sealed the Execution of that Great Prince of happy Memory . ANSWER XIV . He says , That many of my Church were not of my Party ; and that if some of them did the King eminent service in the Critical day of danger , so did the Protestants too : therefore it is not to be ascribed to our Religion . Nor is it reasonable to requite particular men , by having those Laws abandoned , which secure us against as great a danger . 'T is barbarity for any Christian ( but those of our Sect ) to question his life that exposed it for his Prince , or to do this in any age , except Queen Maries ; for then Sir Nich. Throgmorton was so dealt with : But the Minister detests such times and such examples ; and he knows the King will reward deserving persons without trespassing on his Laws . Lastly , he desires me to be favourable to the stigmatized man ( whom I do not hate , he knows , for his offences ) because the King whom he formerly displeased bears with him : for he contributed much against the Phanaticks to his Majesties restauration , and would not willingly live to see the Pope turn him out again . REPLY XIV . What is the meaning of this distinction , That many of my Church were not of my Party ? Have we not been all of the same Party , or can there he named a Papist that was not for the King , even in te worst of times ? But , Good Mr. Parson , have you all this while cut our throats , and do you now come with your insignificant flatteries , that there were some eminent among us for Loyalty ? I fear not the worst you can say , and for the best I scorn it . Did I ever say otherwise , then that the Protestants were to be honoured for their wonderful service to the King ? Was not the Apology directed to them ? and have I not always declared , that his Majesty ows as much to them , as ever Prince can owe to Subjects ? Certainly , 't is no lessning of their worth , because we did our endeavours , and have been fellow-sufferers with them in that Glorious Quarrel . I never prest in the Apology to have any particular body exempted : We only say there , Little did we once think that the necessity of affairs would occasion the Royal Party to advise the punishment of us all , and in the crowd those worthy Preservers of the King at Worcester . Yet , Sir ( with your permission ) it were not so unreasonable neither , as you would have it , for the service of some few to suspend the Laws against a Party . You have read , I know , the Scripture , and therefore may remember Mordecay's case , who by saving the Kings life , not only preserved himself and his Nation from Ruine , but obtained also honour and freedom for them all . But what do you drive at by Throgmortons usage ? Will you never leave perverting History , or at best betraying your own ignorance ? First , you must know , Reader , that Throgmorton by none of our Historians is mētioned to have done any service for Queen Mary ; Yet a Hollins head has his trial at large ( which John Lilburn afterwards copied out to the life ) where no evasion is omitted ; and certainly it had been then a fit time to urge merits , had he had any . But suppose he was as eminent and faithful as Bedin field , Jerningham , &c. Must that excuse a man from being fairly tried for Treason ? This Sir Nicholas Throgmorton ( you must know ) with others , was accused as a a Conspirator with Wyat , for which he had a Tryal and was acquitted by his Jury . Why , distempered Sir , 't is so far from our business , that we do earnestly desire in the Apology ( upon the least offence against the State ) the Transgressour may die without mercy ; and this I 'le be bound Col. Carlos and the rest of those brave men shall willingly subscribe . But will you , worthy Country-man ( that know his Majesties thoughts so well ) engage that none of the factious shall murmure at him for rewarding those that have done well ? Now for the stigmatized , I find , Mr. Parson , you pretend to be very well acquainted with their actions : If they have done any thing ( which God knows is little , and not to the hundreth part of their transgression ) let them thank God for the grace he has given them to do the King at length service : but I am sure if they really meant well , they would never promote the harassing of a faithful Party , till they found them machinating against their Prince . I have no particular spleen to any man , yet cannot look on those men , as either of wit or honesty , who needlesly disoblige , and who strive with violence to have Christians persecuted for Religion ; when as they themselves are the first that rail against all mankind , if their own Consciences be toucht , though it be by the establisht Laws of the Nation . SECT . XV. APOLOGY . We confess , we are unfortunate , and you just Judges , whom with our lives we will ever maintain to be so ; nor are we ignorant the necessity of affairs made the King and you do things , which formerly you could not so much as fancy : yet give us leave to say we are still Loyal ; nay , to desire you to believe so , and to remember how synonymous ( under the late Rebellion ) was the word Papist and Cavalier ; for there was no Papist that was not deemed a Cavalier , nor no Cavalier that was not counted a Papist , or at least thought to Popishly affected . ANSWER XV. He will pass over our fawning on the Parliament , and commending our selves , and believes us , as we did the Sectaries that called the Cavaliers Papists . He wonders why these Royallists should be termed Popishly affected ▪ but if the Papists were judged Cavaliers , they afterwards were ashamed of it . In Ireland whole Armies were up against the King. In England some came in voluntarily to serve him , but more were hunted into Garrisons ; it being well known we should bring his Majesty more hatred then service . The greatest part of us that fought for him when his fortunes stood , fell off when he declined . Then he asks us , where we were from that time forward , in all those weak efforts of a gasping Loyalty ? We were flattering , he says , and giving sugered words to the Rebels , as now we do to the Royallists : for we addrest our Petitions , To the Supream Authority of the Nation , the Commonwealth of England : that we had generally taken , and punctually kept the engagement : We promist if we might enjoy our Religion , we would be most faithful and useful Subjects of England . We proved it in these words : b The Papists of England would be bound by their interest to live peacefully and thankfully in the exercise of their Conscience ; and becoming gainers by such compassions , they could not so easily be distrusted , as the Prelatick Party that were loosers . Moreover ( the Minister on his own word , says ) we farther proved all this by real testimonies , which not to shame us toe much , he will pass by in silence . Now if after all this we were deemed Cavaliers , we were much wronged . REPLY 15. Good , Mr. Parson , speak truth , and you will shame no body but your self : have you bespattered us all this while with falsities ; and will you now do it farther by your Pedantick Rhetorick ? Pray , Reader , to speak moderately , is not this man the archest wrangler that ever was ? for if he dares disown a thing which all men know , how will he then cavil , do you think , at what is known but only to the Wise ? was ever any thing so evident , as that the Rebels deemed all Papists Cavaliers , and all Cavaliers Papists ? I do not infer that therefore all Cavaliers were Papists , only , I say , they were generally so called ; nor is any body ignorant , that the reason was , to make them more hated by the people , as this Minister by his false glosses would at this instant serve us . Concerning our frankness to serve the King , it is so fully treated in the Preface , that no truth was ever more plainly made manifest . But what made this mad man ask where we were in all those weak efforts of gaspink Loyalty ? Were not we where the rest of the Royal party were ? Some of us were in London , some with the King , some about dispatches , some in the Tower , some sold to the Islands ; and in fine , was there any Plot but the Catholicks were as numerous in it proportionably as any other Subjects ? Was ever man so impudent as to deny this ? Yes , the Minister does it , and farther says , we were flattering the Rebels wich Addresses , and owning them the Supream Power of the Nation . Reader , lest this should be a stumbling-block to the weak , I wille give you some account of the matter . After the Rebels had trampled down Monarchy , and enslaved the whole Nation by force ; it happened that a Lay-Gentleman ( with whom I have no manner of acquaintance , but have heard him ever esteemed of much wit and integrity ) seeing the then ruling Grandees pretend by their Principles to be against all Persecution for Conscience ; thought it would not disoblige the Catholiques or any body else , if he stickled a little for a private Toleration . The Protestant Cavaliers had many daily Congregations at London , which , the constancy and courage of Dr. Wild , Dr. Gunning , Dr. Thriscross , &c. ( with some sweet words also ) forc'd the Rebels to a kind of connivence at ; but the Papists could not follow the same Method : For whereas the Protestant Ministers ( if the Governement had on a sudden fell to severity ) knew they should be but carried to the White Hart , or at most imprisoned for a day or two ; a Popish Priest was sure to be hanged , and all his Auditory fineable also by the known Laws of the Land. This Gentleman therefore , to try the pulse of the Rebels , that juggled in all their Professions , writ two Books , called the First and Second Moderators : the thing in it self could not be discommended ; but for the wording , he ( I mean the Author ) is to answer for it . The Books I have not by me , but you may be sure the Minister has quoted the worst things in them ; and I question not a little whether all be true he mentions , having already found him false , as you see in many particulars . I need not vindicate the Gentleman , for he can do it himself to the purpose : My business at present only is to admire the folly of my Adversary , who hand over head lays as a crime , the indiscretion ( which is the most that can be said of it ) of a private man to all his Party . Would not this Logick then make the whole Church of England guilty of Phanatick Principles , because Dr. Taylor writ for liberty of Prophesie ? And if our Gentleman may be thought to have shewed his Papers to some Catholiques before they were published , 't is every jot as probable , the Dr. made Protestants acquainted with his Book before it was sent to the Press . It is very severe doubtless , if the inconsiderateness of one , should not only be fathered on us all , but urged against us , equal to the Treason of the late Transgressors . No people on Earth can be safe at this rate : nay , all the Protestant Cavaliers themselves ( those great patterns of Loyalty ) would be involved , if such consequences were allowed . Every body knows , that some Great men got out of Decimation by favour , and that many Gentlemen ( it may be out of prudence , knowing the end of Plots ) refused to receive Letters , much less Commissions from the King. How many Souldiers also were there that served Cromwel at Jamaica and other Places : neither failed there a compliance in Poets too , as in Cowly and Cleveland themselves : and for Lawyers there was no want of them in Westminster-Hall , wsensoever a Cavalier had need . The Ministry also of the Nation had some among them that were not able to resist Temptation ; for there were not a few that took the Covenant ; and Dr. Martin in his printed Letters taxes a great One for complying with the Presbyterians abroad . But why does my Minister lay the taking of the Engagement as a crime against us , seeing it was generally taken through the whole Kingdom , no body being capable of Law that had not done it ? Nor did any body fail of calling the Parliament the Supream Authority of the Nation , if they had Law-suits Petitions or any thing else of that Nature . Is this a blemish to the Cavaliers in general ? No , 't is so far from it , that even the most of these I mention , when occasion served , were ever forward in the Kings concerns . But all things perchance are lawful to all men , so they be not Catholicks . SECT . XVI . APOLOGY . We know , though we differ something in Religion , the truth of which , let the last day judge , yet none can agree with your inclination , or are fitter for your converse then we ; for as we have as much birth among us as England can boast of , so our breeding leans your way both in Court and Camp. And therefore had not our late Sufferings united us in that firm tie , yet our like humors must needs have joyned our hearts . If we erre , pity our condition , and remember what your great Ancestors were ; and make some difference between us that have twice converted England from Paganism , and those other Sects that can challenge nothing but intrusion for their imposed Authority . ANSWER XVI . He says , he aggrees with me in all that is truly Catholick , and differs only in what we have innovated : he respects our breeding , but suspects whatever leans to forreign jurisdiction . 'T is a flam that we have twice converted England ; and that sure we mean it has been twice converted by persons sent from Rome ; which we will never perswade any one to believe , that has tasted Church-History , without our Fathers chewing it for him . But supposing this true , he asks whether we wouldt infer , that because they received good from the Primitive Christians of that place , they must lay themselves open to receive any ill , that my happen to them from their dangerous Successours . REPLY XVI . Concerning his saying , that he agrees with me in all that is truly Catholick , I kiss his hands , for so said Jacob Behmen , and so I dare say will Mr. Woodcock , this being the old Song of all Hereticks . I have proved before , that forreign Jurisdiction in Spirituals may well agree in all Governments ; and no Kingdoms have been more happy at home , or glorious abroad , then when the Pope was their Spiritual Pastor . But methinks my Gentleman might have acknowledged tha the last Conversion at least was Popish , it being performed Ann. 596. in the time of Pope Gregory , whom a Fox calls the basest of all his Predecessours ; and it was done also by Austin a b Monck , which very name is enough to tell a Protestant , the Missioner was Popishly perswaded . Moreover , this Austin survived his Master Gregory , and consequently was according to Fox ( who dreames that he lived in England 16. yeares ) not only obedient to Boniface the 3. ( the Great Antichrist ) but made his Companion Lawrence his a Successour , who had the like veneration for Popes , though they then stiled themselves Universal Bishops as all Protestants affirme ; nor did ever Canterbury deny the Roman Sea , till Cranmer in the time of Hen. 8. If any man yet shall not think Austin Papist enough , let him read St. Bedes History , or rather some Protestants about it , among which let J. Bale an Apostate b Frier be one , who will tell you , That Austin was sent to convert the Saxons to a Popish Faith , and that he taught false Doctrine , and minded more the getting oblations for Masses , then the Preaching of the Gospel . Yet c Fox , though he call St. Austin Pharisaical , says , nevertheless , that those Missioners did Miracles before King Ethelbert . For the Conversion under King Lucius , all Reformed Historians confess that Pope Eleutherius sent Damianus and Fugatius ( two Ministers forsooth as d Heylin calls them ) who preacht Christ to the Britains . No man can doubt then , if these were sent from Rome , but that they taught the Faith of Rome . Now when Austin ( whom you see the Protestants already confess Popish ) came to convert the Saxons , he had conference with Dinoth the Abbot , and several of the Monks at Bangor , who still preserved Christian Religion among the British . In all their Dispute we finde no debate but about the Customes of the Church ; nor did Austin demand of them any more , then the a alteration in keeping of Easter , and some Ceremonies in Baptism : but had there been any difference in Faith , and doctrine ( as Speed b sayes positwely there was none ) Historians would not have failed to remember that , seeing they take notice of things of l●ss moment : and besides , every body knows how scrupulous the Church was in Doctrine , having condemned the Arrians , Eutychians , Nestorians and the like , for some things which to ordinary and humane capacities seemed but meer niceties . This then proves plainly that Austin the Popish Monck ( who also according to b Hollingshead infected us with the poyson of Romish Errours . ) preacht no other Doctrine then what the British had received afore : but the the British , according to Fox and others of our Protestant Authors , were the uncorrupt preservers of Gods word , having received from their King Lucius , who lived about 180. years after Christ . Let any man therefore judge , who are most Primative , & whether he that has the face to deny that Papists twice converted England , would not also deny our Saviour , were it as much for his advantage as we see this to be . SECT . XVII . APOLOGY . But it is generally said , That Papists cannot live without persecuting all other Religions within their reach . We confess , where the name of Protestant is unknown , the Catholick Magistrates ( believing it erronious ) do use all endeavours to keep ▪ it out . Yet in those Countreys where Liberty is given , they have far more Priviledges then we under any Reformed Government whatsoever . To be short , we will only instance France for all , where they have publick Churches , where they can make what Proselytes they please , and where it is not against Law to be in any charge or Imployment . Now Holland , which permits every thing , gives us 't is true our Lives and Estates , but takes away all Trust and Rule , and leaves us also in danger of the Scout , whensoever he pleases to molest our Meetings . ANSWER XVII . He says , That what is generally said of Popish persecutions , is also generally believed ; and that I answer deceitfully , in mentioning those Countreys only where the name of Protestant is unknown , and no liberty given them ; but omit those where it is known , and no liberty given ; as in Flanders now , and in England when it was Catholick . I instance , he says , in France , because I could find no other place ; but I should have considered how the Edicts of the Protestants liberty were obtained , and how they are observed . But if the Edicts were observed , he says it is no argument , that because a Liberty not against the Law is allowed them , it should be granted us against the Law. The Papists in Holland , he says , lent the chief help to fling of the Spanish yoak , and therefore deserve more then we , who would have brought it on our Country again . REPLY XVII . I could not imagine the Minister would have discover'd so great a Truth : for now , Reader , you see that he confesses that whatsoever is said of Papists is generally believed . How are Papists traduced ! What Stories are told of Popes ! How many things of the whole body of Papists ! and all taken for Gospel , as the adversary himself acknowledges . Thus people are possest with a horrour of Qu. Mary's days , as if all were really true ; and yet , as I have treated before , there has been more bloud Judicially spilt about Religion by those that have excluded the Pope , then has been by Papists from the Conversion of the Nation to its fall . What does the Minister mean by Protestants known , and no liberty given ? Italy and Spain know Protestants ; nay , the Turk himself knows them , and is obliged to the disturbances made by Luther and his fellows in Germany . For were the Government of that Country united , an not so rent into factions with diversities of Religions ( as a Sir Edwin Sandys observes ) breeding endless jealousies , heart-burnings and hatred , it needed no other help to affront the Great Turk , and to repulse all his forces , to the security of Christendom . This therefore was one of the advantages which the Reformation brought . Certainly I spoke plain enough , and that without deceit , viz. Where the name of Protestant is unknown , ( that is , where it has not been yet planted ) the Catholike Magistrates take care to keep it out : But where their number or rebellion has moued their natural Prince to grant them terms , in those places I say they live with more liberty then Catholikes under any Protestant Government . Flanders , was never compelled to let the Reformed have extraordinary priviledges ; Neverthelesse there are many Protestants in that Province , and particularly in the Wallon Countries : nor have they their Ministers hanged , though these places are under the obedience of the most Catholike King. What reason has the Minister to say I could ▪ name no other Country But France , where Protestants have open Churches ? has he forgot Poland , even Crakaw it self , where theire Orthodox Socinian Cathechism was made ? Let him also think on Hungary , both which are Popish Kingdoms , under Popish Kings . Nay , in Piedmont it self they have open Churches ; yet a man may legally be hanged in England , if he have but a private Chappel . Besides this , Reader , there is much difference between Papists and Protestants , because all Countries were possest by us , and the Reformed had no pretence to Government , ( except in England , and in a small Province or two in Germany ) but what they got by Rebellion . Therefore , as a man that is turned out of his house by a stranger , may expect more then the stranger being dispossest can do from the right o●ner : so Papists may justly expect more liberty from Protestants , then they can upon any pretence from Papists ; yet Protestants live to this day freer in Catholique Kingdoms , then we do under them : For Protestants may have employment in Poppish Countreys , but Papists are debarred from Offices in all Countries , I except none , that are of the Reformed Faith. I know not what the Minister would be at , that the Low-Country Papists were the chief cause why the Spanish yoak was thrown off . 'T is true , there were many factious Catholikes there at that time stirr'd up by the insinuation of the Reformed , as Saints enflame honest men now adays . Yet for all this not only the first insurrections & tumults were ( according to a Strada ) acted by the Calvinists at Tournay , Lisle , and Valencien ; but also in the year 1581 ( as the b Protestant Author of Europae Modernae Speculum will tell you ) by a publick Instrument they declared their King Philip to have rightfully fallen from the Dominion of those Provinces , then united under the profession of the Reformed Religion : neither would they ever afterwards suffer the Papists to have any share in the Government , for fear they should bring all things back again to their true Lord an Master . But now suppose , Reader , I had not proved the Dutch villany by the testimony of a Writer of the Protestant Religion , I hope 't is no excuse to their Rebellion , though some Papists did by accident facilitate their work : For if so , then the Murther of Charles the First by the Independents , and their erecting a Government without King or Lords , were not Rebellion , because the whole body of the Presbyterians began the play ; which afterwards ( but 't was too late ) they seemed to detest , and openly to exclaim against . How the Edicts of France were obtained , you shall hear in this next Section . SECT . XVIII . APOLOGY . Because we have named France , the Massacre will perchance be urged against us . But the World must know that was a Cabinet-Plot , condemned as wicked by Catholick Writhers there , and of other Countries also . Besides , it cannot be thought they were murthered for being Protestants , since 't was their powerful Rebellion ( let their Faith have been what it would ) that drew them in to that ill-machinated destruction . ANSWER XVIII . Here he says the French Massacre was so horrid a cruelty , that Thuanus tells us , That considering men , and having turned over the Annals of Nations , he could find no example for it in Antiquity ; that it was cloakt with shews of Amity , and a Marriage between the Houses of Valois and Burbon ; to which the chief Protestants being invited , were after their jollity of mirth , in the dead of night butchered in their Houses , without distinction of Sex or Age , till the channels ran with blood , none escaping but the Bridegroom : and the Prince of Conde , who were afterwards the one poysoned , the other stab'd by men of our Religion . He proceeds , that this which I say was condemned by Catholick Writers , was also extolled as glorious by others of them ; and that one may guess at my meaning , and that I am of their sentiment , since first I call it a Cabinet-Plot ( a fine soft word for the Butchery of 30000. persons . ) Secondly , in answer to them that call it murther , I seem to blame it as done by halves , in terming it an ill-machinated destruction . Lastly , in saying , that it was their Rebellion drew it on them , let their Faith have been what it would ; when indeed it was their Faith , let their Obedience have been what id would : for the King never had better Subjects then those that were Massacred , no● worse Rebels then the Massacrers . Then he tells us , that the brave Coligni was the first killed , and his head was sent to Rome , and his Body dragged about Paris ; and besides , he says , that the Duke of Guises factious Authority ( as I sweetly stile it ) was a black Rebellion ; and to decide whether they were massacred for Protestant Religion or Rebellion , because both himself and I may be partial , he desires to take judges between us . To make it appear it was not for Rebellion they were massacred , he cites K. James , who says , I could never learn by any good and true intelligence , that in France those of the Religion took Arms against their King. In the first Civil War they stood only upon their Guard , &c. To prove that they were massacred for their Religion ( since I will admit no judge but the Pope ) he undertakes to shew us that it was his judgment , from Thuanus , a Catholick Writer , who tells us , The Pope having an account of the Massacre , read the Letter in the Consistory , there decreed to go directly to St. Marks , and solemnly give thanks for so great a blessing conferred on the Roman Sea , and the Christian World : That soon after a Jubilee should be publisht throughout the whole Christian World ; and these causes were exprest for at , viz. To give thanks to God for destroying in France the Enemies of the Truth and of the Church : That in the evening the Guns were fired at St. Angelo , Bonfires made , and all things performed usual in the greatest Victories of the Church : That some days after , there was a solemn Procession to St. Louis , and an Inscription set over the Church-door by the Cardinal of Lorrain , to congratulate his Holiness and the Colledge in the Kings name , for the stupendious effects and incredible events of their Counsels given him , and of their assistance sent , and of their twelve years wishes and prayers . Soon after , he says , the Pope sent Cardinal Ursini to congratulate the King , to commend and bless them that had to do in the Massacre , and to perswade the reception of the Councel of Trent , by this Argument ; That the memory of the late glorious action ( to be magnified in all ages , as conducing to the Glory of God and Dignity of the Holy Roman Church ) might be sealed by the approbation of the Holy Synod ; for so it would be manifest , that the King consented to the destruction of so many , not of hatred or revenge , but ardent desire to propagate the Glory of God ( which could not be expected while the Protestants stood ) through all the Provinces of France . The Answerer then concludes this Paragrah with commending the Head of the Church for his judgment in cutting throats , & not mincing the matter like me ( whom he is pleased to call an English limb of him ) who durst not say what I desired , for fear of provoking the Protestants ; nor what the thing deserved , for contradicting the Pope . REPLY XVIII . Can Thuanus , or any man else , look upon that action with more horrour then I ? Certainly no : yet , Reader , I must tell you , Thuanus is esteemed as malitiously partial a Writer as ever undertook the writing of a History . Nay , Heylin ( that other Hanibal , that sworn enemy of Rome ) says , That a Thuanus savours more of the party , then of the Historian . Now for his professing to be a Catholick , it adds nothing to his Authority , because in every Religion there are those that write out of spleen and Faction . To a stranger abroad , Milton would go for a Protestant , because he calls himself so ; yet in his Books the true matter of Fact is so perverted by his malice , that it becomes at last as false , as the rest of those damnable lies , with which his Papers are stufft . But though Thuanus be thus reputed , yet this Minister will pervert the Divel himself to do us a mischief . He has told us that the Pope ordered a Jubilee through Christendom , to give God thanks for destroying in France the Enemies of the Church ; by which he would have the Reader believe , that the Massacre was the cause of this Jubilee ; when as a Thuanus tells us , That the Jubilee was to thank God for the Victory at Lepanto against the Turk , for the success of Spain against the Rebels in Belgium , and to beseech God for the election of a Catholick King in Poland ; as well as for the business in France . But truly , I need not complain , for such Preachers of Gods word may say any thing ( so it discredit the Papists ) let it be never so improbable in it self . For my part I can believe not , that the Pope and Consistory ( who are by Protestants reputed dexterous and subtle ) would make publike Procession and Triumph for Murther in cold blood , which could bring them no farther good ( for the advantages were already obtained ) but might occasion much scandal , which , by reason it was the cause of Luthers revolt , was the more carefully to be avoided for the future . It may be they were not sorry in their hearts : For what men are so at the death of their Enemies ? Yet we see often , that those which have a titillation the thing being done , would nevertheless loose rather their own lives , then give the least consent to the fact . Davila tells us in one place of his Fifth Book , That the King and Queen-Mother contrived the destruction of the Rebels ; and communicated their design only to the Duke of Anjou , the Guises , and the Count of Rhetz , and this resolution to Massacre , we see there was , a pretty while before Pius V. died . In another place of this Book , I find this Pope died some three months before the execution . In another place of this Book I find that this Pope would never consent to the marriage of Margaret to the King of Navar , by reason of his Religion ; and yet in the time of this Marriage Ch. 9. had determined this Butchery : Therefore putting all this together , it was plain the Pope had no hand in the wicked contrivance . Gregory 13. who succeeded , and before whose Election this Massacre was designed , was at last brought to dispence with the Match , it being made appear to him how dangerous it might be in those Schismatical times , if the King should in anger solemnize the Marriage without leave ; for so this a King had threatned the aforesaid Pius V. and daily gave more symptoms of his resolution in the Wedding , and anger for being contradicted in it at Rome . Reader , We have no other way to discover the errors of Historians , but by conjectures , after we have compared times and circumstances . The reasons that I have therefore last mentioned , assure me that the Pope had no hand in the design : yet suppose he had been of the Plot with the King , as 't is plain he was not , I am sure that can be no excuse to the Hugonots for their former Rebellion , and unspeakable abominations , as you shall presently see . But let the Pope have what design he would , 't is still evident ( according to the Apology ) that the King and Queen-Mother ( who could only perform this Murther ) were moved to this Massacre for Interest of State , and not Religion . For the King was not such a Bigot or Pious man , upon a Spiritual account to draw such a hazard , or at least a scandal on his own person : and for the Queen-Mother ( that great intriguer ) she valued Religion little ; for sometimes she favoured Protestants , sometimes again persecuted them : Nay , when it was for her advantage , she gave great and suspitious signs that she would be of the Reformed Religion also , as may be seen in Davila in the second Book . My Minister will not perchance be yet satisfied that I call it a Cabinet-Plot , but says they died for their Religion , and that the King had not better Subjects then those that were massacred . Brave Coligni being the first that fell . Now , Reader , that you may see what kind of Subject our Minister is ( and such a one I always doubted him ) I will briefly shew you how these Hugonots behaved themselves , among whom Coligni was a Principal , and who is honoured with the title of Brave , by this most Loyal Parson . In the time of Francis the First Calvin appeared , and dedicated his Institutions to him . The preaching , of this man pleased the changeable humor of many French ; but the Sect was kept under by the King , and especially by his Son Hen. 2. who like wise Governours were unwilling to let an unheard-of Religion get root in their Country , well knowing that Rebellion would follow , as afterwards it happened to the purpose . Francis the 2. succeeded Hen. who was althogether governed by the House of Guise , by reason of the great power they had in the late Kings Reign , and more especially now , because the Queen-Consort was the glorious Mary of Scotland , daughter to the Sister of this ambitious Duke . The House of Burbon ( being the first Princes of the Blood ) were greatly troubled they had no interest in affairs , and tried all manner of ways to get into play . The Prince of Conde ( a hot-headed man ) seeing he could not ruine the Guises by ordinary means , calls all his partizās together ( `among whom Coligni was the Chief ) to la Ferte an Apennage of his , and there he told them , they must take Arms to free themselves from the slavery they were in by the ruling Party . The fiery youth were all of the Princes opinion , to begin the War without delay : But , Brave Coligni ( as the Minister calls him ) replied , That this were to ruine them all , seeing that though their pretences were fair , yet few of the Nation would follow them ; and on the other side , all forreign Princes were in amity with France by the late agreement of the Kings Father . If they had a mind , he said , to do their business home , the sole way were to pretend Religion , which in it self had an honourable appearance ; and besides , the Calvinists in France were many , hating the Guises , and wanting only a Head ; nor would the Princes of Germany or Q. Elizabeth fail to assist them on this score , which otherwise could not be done on any account . Thus the Brave man not only consented to Rebellion , but put them in a holy method effectually to perform it . All the Assembly applauded the Counsel of this Achitophel , and there-upon Andelot his Brother ( a most turbulent man ) and the Vicedame of Chartres ( rich and debauch ) were apponted to execute their determinations . The manner of the Plot was this : To get a great company of unarmed Hugonots to go to Court , and there clamour for Liberty of Conscience , and free Temples : these poor men ( they imagined ) should presently be ill treated by the Duke of Guise ; whereupon the Protestant Souldiers ( which for that purpose they were to provide ) would immediately come to their assistance ; and under pretence that the Hugonots were abused , they might fall on the Court , and wholly destroy their Enemies . Besides this , 't was reported , that in the disorder the King and his three Brethren were to be made away , and God knows whether this last part were not as true as the first , seeing after the death of these Children , the House of Bourbon ( Heads of the design ) should succeed in the Throne . But now see how far the Conspiracy succeeded : The Provinces were divided to several of the most considerable in each division , who were to make ready their Levies against the 15. of March 1560. at Blois , a Town unfortified , where then the Court resided . Godfry de la Barre ( a Gentleman of Perigort , who had left his Country by reason of forgery in a Law-suit and turned Calvinist ) was made Commander in Chief ; and according to their success , the Prince , Admiral , and the rest would order affairs . The Kings Councel , having at last notice of this , carries the King without noise to Amboise , the better to secure him on a sudden , with the present little force they had in readiness . On the day appointed the Conspirators come , and finding the King gone , follow him to Amboise , and assault the Castle ; which being too strong to be presently their's , they were by the Mareschal of St. Andrew , and others wholly defeated and taken . Upon this trayterous attempt , the King summons an Assembly of the Nobles at Fountain-Bleau , where the brave Coligni grave the King a Paper , and said , That the Protestants ( hearing by his Majesties Edict , that every Subject might make known his Grievance in this Assembly ) did present that Petition to him ; & though it were not signed , yet when his Majesty pleased , it should be by 150000. hands . The Assembly , for all this arrogance , advised against a Toleration ; but the Hugonots encouraged by these proceedings , rose in Arms in ▪ several places , and filled the Court with complaints of their many insolencies ; and on the other side , the Prince with his Complices set upon Lyons . After this the three Estates met at Orleans , where the Prince was condemned to be executed and in this disorder the King died . Charles the 9 was about eleven years old when he began his Reign ; so that in his minority ( the faction of the Protestants being so great ) the Prince was acquitted , and liberty granted for publike preaching . Then the Hugonots became so insolent , that they massacred many people in Paris , burnt the Church of St. Medard , rifled Monasteries , and committed many such exorbitances . The Prince would have ▪ seised on the Kings Person at Fountain-Bleau , but the Duke of Guise got the King of Navar ( first Prince of the Blood , and prime Commander of State ) to bring him and the Queen-Regent to Paris ; which when the Prince of Conde understood , and saw himself defeated of his design , he told brave Coligni , that he had plunged himself so deep , that now he must drink or drown ; and thereupon attackt Orleans and took it , using all the inhumane barbarities that can be thought of . After this ( as Rebels are accustomed ) a Manifesto is set out , That he took up Arms to free the Kings Person from the slavery in which the Catholick Lords held him . This was directed to the Parliament ; who again answered , That they wondered how it could be said , the King was prisoner , being in his own Capital City , of which Charles of Bourbon the Princes own Brother was Governour ; where was present the King of Navar Chief Administrator of the Kingdom , where the Parliament sat ; and in fine ; where all the great Officers of the Crown resided . But why do I go to the particulars of this notorious Rebellion ? To be short , Coligni's own words ( a little before his death ) will sufficiently declare how great a Traytor he was ; for just before the Marriage ( like another Nebuchadnezzar in his pride ) he said to some of his confidents , That neither Alexander nor Caesar could be compared to him , because Fortune was their friend , but that he dad lost four Battles , yet by his wit , he stil became more formidable to his Enemies . If then this brave man , that began the Rebellion , as you have heard , that lost four Battels against his Prince , that seised on so many Towns , that disswaded Peace so often when desired , and that did so many infamous actions all along , shall pass and not be thought a Rebel , then I will aver there was never Rebel since the Creation of the World. The things , Reader , which I have here laid down , you many find disperst in the first five Books of Davila's History , who is an Author thought by Protestants so Authentick and so impartial ( sparing no body of what Rank or Faction soever ) that among Historians none hath a clearer fame . Having given you a short occount how these Potent Hugonots plagued these two Kings , be pleased now to tell me , whether it was not their powerful Rebellion ( let their Religion have been what it would ) that drew them into this ill-machinated destruction . And by the way , see how simple the cavil of this Minister is , who says , I call it ill-machinated , because it was done by halves . The action was wicked , and a Cabinet-Plot , or else there is no such thing in Nature : neither did it want condemning by several famous Catholiques themselves ; who would doubtless have been silent , had the Pope so publickly rejoyced at the news , as the Minister would fain have us believe . The King in Vindication of the cruelty laid to his charge , gives these Reasons to the World : That though every body saw how horribly the Rebels had used him , yet it was not his design to Massacre so many Hugonots , but only to cut off some Heads of the Party , who so highly fomented the Sedition : this made him cause Coligni to be shot , the chief Rebel of thē all ; but the bullet only breaking his arm , his Partizans grew to such a rage , that they threatned a present War , and destruction to him and his ; therefore he was necessitated to what he did , viz. immediately to destroy those that had vowed his ruine . Now to demonstrate that is was not his intention , the Kings friends farther said , That had he intended a general Massacre from the beginning , it had been folly to a shoot the Admiral so many days before the total execution , because this would have alarmed the Party , and given occasion to many to get away as in truth not a few did , the day before the bloody night . Reader , I know not whether this Declaration of the King be true or not ; but this I am sure , the action was unchristian , though there were never greater Rebels then these Hugonots : for they not only fought many Battles with their Prince , and fortified many of his Towns against him ; but besides all this , brought forreign Forces into France , as Ruyters from Germany , and English from us ▪ and because all things are lawful to the Saints , they delivered up Havre de Grace to Queen Elizabeth , by which we had a new footing in France , even we , the profest enemies of the Nation . Nay , they began first to a Massacre Catholiques in Paris ; and also Coligni and Beza got Poltrot to murther the Duke of b Guise , father to him that was Killed at Blois . This the Assassine openly confest at his death , being after executed for the fact . By force then , and such tricks , tyring out their Kings , they got several Priviledges and Edicts : but God send me and my Relations to live for ever in servitude , rather then to obtain liberty by such strange and dissalowable courses . And truly , I doubt not ( since this Minister can justifie these Agreements ) but he would , if the Four Bills had passed at the Isle of Wight , vindicate the proceedinghs , and cite those Acts with as much confidence , as if they had been obtained without Force in time of Peace and quiet . Had King James lived in our days , and seen how the same pretences with those of the Hugonots , viz. Conscience , and the Liberty of the Subject , had like to have ruined his Family , I do believe they would have found small comfort from any Vindication of his . I do therefore openly affirm , that if any Englishman ( who has considered the villany of our times ) does still justifie Brave Coligni and his Hugonots , he has either been an apparent Rebel , or is so in his heart , and will shew his Teeth upon the first advantage that shall be offered . SECT . 19. APOLOGY . May it not as well be said in the next Catholick Kings Reign , that the Duke of Guise and the Cardinal ( Heads of the League ) were killed for their Religion also ? Now no body is ignorant , that 't was their factious Authority , which made the jealous Prince design their deaths , though by unwarrantable means . ANSWER XIX . He says the Guises were not killed for their Religion , for they were killed by one of their own Religion , as much bent against Protestants as they . That Papists hated Hen. 3. only for sparing the Blood of Protestants , and not declaring his Protestant Heir uncapable of Succession . That for these causes the Guises by the Popes consent ( who calls them the Macchabees of the Church ) entred into the Holy League , and called in the Spaniards and Savoyards to maintain War against him , and deprive him of his Kingdom and Life . Whereupon the jealous Prince , as I favourably call him , dealt with them , as they had done with the Protestants . But their case , he says , was so different from the Protestants , that he wonders I should mention it . Then he tells us , the Pope excommunicated the King for this action , and gave nine years Indulgence to his Subiects to fight against him , foretelling , as a Pope might do without Astrology , that ere long he should come to a fearful end ; and this he says hapned : for the Subjects earned the Indulgence , and a Frier fulfilled the Prophesie . This action the Pope in a Speech called the work of God , and ( for its wonderfulness ) compared it with the Incarnation or Resurrection ; preferring his courage before Eleazars or Iudiths , and declaring the King ( who profest he died in the Faith of the Roman Catholick Church ) to have died in the sin against the Holy Ghost . Lastly , He asks , whether it may not be said , Papists cannot live without persecuting Protestāts , whē a Popish King is stab'd and damned for not persecuting them enough . REPLY 19. Here is a great deal of cry , and little wool ; for I have often said , the Pope may have his frailties , as well as other men ; and does not the Minister know he is a Temporal Prince also , and in that capacity may have intrigues with his Neighbours ? What is this to our Religion , more then if the King of Spain should make use ▪ of the Politicks too far ? Again , if the Pope as our Archbishop ( all Countries being in his Province ) should commit humane indiscretions , Why were we to be more blamed for it , then Durham , Chester and Carlisle ought to be for their Religion , because their Metropolitan Williams joyned with the Rebels against King Charles of happy Memory ? I never approved the procedure of the Guises in their League , and have always said they were most insolent Ministers of State to Hen. 3. but when the Duke and Cardinal were murthered at Blois by the King , their Successors learnt of the Hugonots to run into a formal and open War. And truly , my inference , I conceive , was pertinent concerning the Massacre of the one , and murther of the other , though the Parson thinks it something strange . For in this Example the Outers and the Outees ( the Hugonots and Guises ) were killed by their Kings . Now since both Parties were prodigious in power , able to cope with the Prince ; 't would be as ridiculous to say , that ( because the Hugonots were destroyed ) they suffered for their Faith , as that the Heads of the League were killed for their Religion . Davila tells us , That the Pope only refused to absolve Henry the Third , saying , that he could not be contrite for killing a Cardinal , since he kept another still in prison . Nor does this famous Author say any thing of giving nine years Indulgence to his Subjects that should fight against him ; and yet if the Pope had done so , he must answer for his own actions to God Almighty , and not all the Members of the Catholique Church . But why does this poor Minister continually harp upon James Clement , whom the Divel had seduced for this work ? The Minister would have called me worse then a Turk ( as he has already done ) if I should lay at his door the actions of Hugh Peters , who was as I think ordained , at least as bad as he were . Concerning the Popes Speech , you must know , Reader , that it was a thing forged ( as Tortus says ) and never heard of but at Paris , some Grandees having hopes thereby to animate their Party , and others a design to defame the Sea of Rome : and if you consider it , you will find the Pope had no reason to rejoyce at , but much to lament the death of this Prince . For Henry the Third was always a most firm son of the Church , and easily brought again to whatever could be desired . But when he was gone , an apparent Hugonot was to succeed , whom though for the present they might think they were able to deal with , yet necessarily at best there would be a perpetual distraction among them ; and besides , wise men know , that accidents are common in such cases ; and to be sure , the least success on Henry the Fourth's side , would have ruined the Popes interest . To his Conclusion I have answered before sufficiently , viz. That Protestants live better under Papist Governments , then Papists do under theirs : therefore , I say again , who the Persecutors are , let the World judge . SECT . 20. APOLOGY . If it were for Doctrine that the Hugonots suffered in France , this haughty Monarch would soon destroy them now , having neither Force nor Towns to resist his Might and Puissance . They yet live free enough , being even Members of Parliament , and may convert the Kings Brother too , if he thinks fit to be so . Thus you may see how well Protestants live in a Popish Country under a Popish King : Nor was Charlemaign more Catholick then this ; for though he contends sometimes with the Pope , 't is not of Faith , but about Gallicane Priviledges , which perchance he may very lawfully do . Iudge then , Worthy Patriots , who are the best used , and consider our hardship here in England , where 't is not only a Fine for hearing Mass , but death to the Master for having a Priest in his house ; and so far we are from preferment , that by Law we cannot come within ten miles of London ; all which we know your great Mercy will never permit you to exact . ANSWER XX. Here he denies the consequence , That if the Hugonots then suffered for Doctrine , this haughty Monarch would soon destroy them now : for he says , he may persecute and not destroy them , or destroy them , but not so soon . Nor is this Monarch , he says , as Catholick as Charlemaign ; for if he were , he would be Patron of all Bishopricks in his Empire , make the Pope know the difference between a Prelat and an Emperor , and not chop Logick about Gallicane Priviledges : he would also call a Councel ( as Charlemaign ded against Image-Worship ) to separate errours from the Faith. This he says were a good way to destroy the Hugonots , by taking away the causes of strife ; but any other way he cannot , without violation of his Laws . Then he says , we complain of hardships we feel not , and insult over the Hugonots , who would mend their condition with changing with us . Popish Peers , he says , sit in English Parliaments , as well as Protestants in French. That we have as free access to our Kings Brother , as they to theirs : and , that he knows not what we would have , unless we would Catechise his Highness , as the Abbot did the Duke of Glocester . He concludes , That we complain of those Laws we never knew executed , and which , I say , I know never will be . But the Laws , he says , were made to guard the lives of our Princes against our Trayterous practices . REPLY XX. I must here again , Reader , desire your judgment , whether this consequence in the Apology , be not as natural as can be : viz. If the Protestants suffered for Doctrine ( when by reason of their strength it was dangerous to disturb them ) then doubtless , this haughty Monarch ( being as much a Papist in Faith as any of his Ancestors ) would soon destroy them now , having neither Force nor Town to resist his might and puissance . Certainly , this is as impertinent a cavil , as his insisting upon Charlemagn , who was Emperour as well as King of France ; and therefore had more Authority , then if he had been but a single Monarch . Besides , I wonder he should urge him as Quarreller with the Pope , being as great a friend as ever that Sea had . For he grave to it the Exarchate of Ravenna , the Marca Anconitana , and the Dukedome of Spoleto , which are the greatest part of the Church-Lands in Italy . All the power the ancient Caesars had , I know not ; if it were great , I wish they had never parted with it ; but what they have granted , I think now as truly helongs to the Pope , as any Priuiledges that Towns or Royallty's can call theirs , by the Gracious concessions of our famous Princes . How shameless is this man , that can say , the Hugonots would mend their condition by changing with us ! and yet he cannot deny they have all the advantages before mentioned . How prettily also ( after his usual manner ) doth he pervert my meaning , in saying , we have free access to his Highness ; for my Argument runs thus : That the Hugonots may convert the Kings Brother without any prejudice to them by Law ; when as it is death to a Catholique to pervert ( as they call it ) the meanest of his Majesties Subjects . But God send the King may never find more unfaithful Servants then such ; nor the Duke those that shall wish him worse then the worthy Abbot , whom he is pleased to mention . He has a fling also at me , because the Catholique Peers sit in the House , which is quite besides the thing I urged . For I said , the Hugonots must needs think they live happily , enjoying not only their Religion in publike , but also being capable of any manner of Employment , even to be chosen Members of the three Estates ; nor is there any Parliament of France , but has many of their Religion in it . On the contrary , Catholikes are born with an incapacity of Employment , like the Villains as it were in Ancient times , who had no propriety in the Kingdom . If some few Lords sit in their House , 't is not any favour the Nobility bear to Popery , but because they have gravely considered , that it would be wonderful injustice to turn out a Party for difference in Religion , and permit other dissenters to continue . Now ( seeing there are so many Opinions in the World ) to turn out all , God knows upon whose Children the Lot may fall next : for the Church of England is no Manna , to relish in every palate ; and some wise men also think , that a man may do very well , though he has little Disputes with this his holy Mother . Why does this Gentleman say , we never knew the Laws executed ? I am sure , there have died by these Laws at least 300 Priests , besides Laymen : and how often we have been rackt in prison , and how infinitely our Estates have suffered for our Consciences , no body , I think , is ignorant . But , I hope , the brave people of England will intercede for us to his Majesty , that since he ( the Messiah & only expectation of the Nation ) is come , we may not feel in his days , what we suffered under Cromwel , even by virtue of those Acts which have been formerly made . Nor could Osborn a Protestant ( in his Memoires ) chuse but confess a That against the poor Catholiques nothing in relation to the generality remains upon due proof sufficient to justifie the severity of the Laws daily enacted & put in execution against them . SECT . XXI . APOLOGY . It has been often urged , that our misdemeanours in Queen Elizabeths and King James's time , were the cause of our punishment . ANSWER XXI . Your misdemeanors ? we cry you mercy , if they were no more ; but that comes next to be argued , whether they were misdemeanors or Treasons . REPLY . XXI . Reader , This is the subtlest Sophister that I ever met with ; for ( before this distinction ) I never knew but that Treasons were misdemeanors , and therefore I think the word misdemeanour is not improper . SECT . XXII . APOLOGY . We earnestly wish that the Party had had more patience under that Princess : But pray consider ( though we excuse not their faults ) whether it was not a harder Question then that of Yorck and Lancaster ( the cause of a War of such length and death of so many Princes ) who had most right , Queen Elizabeth or Mary Stuart . For since the whole Kingdom had crowned and sworn Allegeance to Queen Mary , they owned her as the legitimate daughter to Henry , the Eighth ; and therefore it was thought necessarily to follow by many , that if Mary was the true Child , Elizabeth was the Natural , which must needs give way to the thrice-noble Queen of Scots . ANSWER XXII . He says , that I wish the Catholicks had had more patience under Q. Elizabeth ; but he thinks they needed none : for in the first ten years of her Reign ( though what the Papists had done in Queen Maries time was fresh in memory ) none of them fuffered death till the Northern Rebellion , raised against her meerly upon the account of her Religion : 't was she then that was persecuted , and had occasion for patience , and therefore I should have wisht them more Loyalty . But it appears I account Rebellion no fault , in saying , 't was a hard Question , whether the right lay in Queen Elizabeth , or the Queen of Scots , because many thought Queen Elizabeth illegitimate . Here he asks , Who thought so ? Or , when the Question arose ? For , says he , First , Archbishop Heath a Papist , said in his Speech , no body could doubt the justness of her Title . Secondly , the Kings of France , Spain , and the Emperour offered Marriage to her , and thereby hoped to get the Crown . Thirdly , the Queen of Scots and King James acknowledged her , and claimed nothing but to be her Heirs and Successours . Then he tells , that Paul the Fourth was the First that questioned her Title , because the Kingdom being a Fee of the Papacy , she had audaciously assumed it without his leave ; and secondly , because she was illegitimate . But his Successour Pius the Fourth would have owned her , if she would have owned him ; which because she would not , the next Pope Pius V. issued out his Bulls and deposed her , not for Bastardy , but for being a Protestant , upon which the Northern-men and others of her Subjects rebelled , and were every foot plotting against her . 'T is true , he says , the Queen of Scots Title was pretended ; but he demands what would we have done if that Queen had not been Catholick , or Queen Elizabeth ; not thought illegitimate ? He proceeds , That Gregory the Thirteenth had occasion to consider this , having a Bastard of his own , and another of the Emperours to provide for : to the first of which he gave Ireland , and sent Stukely to win it for him ; and to the other England , with leave to win it for himself . But what was this to the Q. of Scots ? who ( he says ) might perhaps have been preferred to marry one of them , upon condition her son Iames might have nothing to do with the Succession . For when she was dead , and her right in King Iames , Sixtus V. not only took no notice of him , but curst Queen Elizabeth again , and gave her Kingdom to Philip the Second of Spain . Pope Clement the Eighth seeing he could do no good upon Queen Elizabeth ( to take care another Heretick should not succeed her ) sent his Breves both to Clergy and Layity , forbidding them to admit any but a Catholique to the Succession , though never so neer in blood ; which was in plain words to exclude King James ; so that the Popes never stuck at the hard question . And now he asks , What our Country men did or suffered for it ? And answers himself , that they acted for the Papal interest , making use of the House of Scotland only for a cloak , while the Title was in Queen Mary ; but when it was in King James , none of them stirred or suffered for it : yet they were not idle , but as busie as Bees in contriving to hasten Queen Elizabeths death , and to put him by the Succession . To prove this , he urges the Spanish Invasion presently after his Mothers death , negotiated and defended by Papists : That the Jesuites procured Huntly to rebel in Scotland : That they persuaded the Earl of Darby to set up a Title to the Crown of England ; which he revealing , was poysoned soon after , as Hesket had threatned him : That when their single shot failed , F. Parsons gave a broad-side to the Royal House of Scotland , in a Book published under the name of Doleman , setting up divers Competitors ; and to provide a sure Enemy , he found a Title for the Earl of Essex ( to whom he dedicated the Book ) being the most ambitious and popular man in the Nation . But the the Book , he says , prefers the Title of the Infanta before all others . Then he concludes from this his Discourse , in which , he says , nothing material can be denied , that it appears , That this hard Question was not between the Parties themselves , in one of whom , we confess , the right was . For the Pope easily resolved it , who denied both sides of the Question , assuming the right to himself , and as concerning the English Catholiques , he says , they sided with the Pope against Queen Elizabeth and Queen of Scots also : and lastly , that their misdemeanours were inexcusable Treasons , if any Treasons befriended by such an Apologist can be inexcusable . REPLY 22. 'T is strange to me , that I must be denied the liberty , which all people else have . No man is forbid to declare their pretensions , when he speaks of the commotions of a Party : yet here I am accused , to think Rebellion no crime , and to excuse their faults , because I tell you what Papists in those days said for themselves . The Minister can call himself a Loyal Subject , and yet defend the Hugonots , who were the most notorious and insolent Rebels that any History can shew ; nor had they any other pretence for the a Massacres and continual ravages committed by them , but Mr. Calvin and Mr. Beza's telling them , God said thus and thus : and therefore , unless their respective Kings would suffer them to destroy a Religion in quiet possession since the Reign of Clouis , they would bring Armies into the field , and fortifie Towns against their Liege-Lords , as every body knows they did , till subdued in the time of Lewis the XIII . I think , good Mr. Parson , I am as well known in England as your self ; and am sure can find more Protestants of Quality that shall engage for my Loyalty , thē you can people of any sort . 'T is not this Minister , Reader , only , but others have called my narration of the matter of fact , a questioning of Queen Elizabeths Title : judge you by my words in the Apology , whether it be so or no ; nor could I omit in honour the Plea of the foregoing age , their misdemeanours being every day thrown in my dish . But suppose I had questioned her Title , there is no Treasonable intention in it I am sure , because the Title of our King has no dependance upon that Princesse : nor was she the first of our Monarchs against whose right Posterity has argued . No body is blamed for saying King Stephen was an usurper , or that Edward the Fourths Title was better then that of the three preceding Henry's . What is 't then , I beseech you ( were the fact proved against me ) I have committed , that Protestant Authors have not done and worse ? Sr. Walter Rawley in his Preface of the History of the world has not only something to say against almost all the Kings of Englād , but Buck in his Ric. 3 has bastardized Hen. 7 and all his offspring , and thereby invalidates theire title to the Crowne either as a Yorkists or b Lancastrians ; Nor does c Speed refraine from questioning the right of most of our Princes from the Conquest till Henry the fowrth's Reigne . Yet none of these have been branded with the Character of ill Subjects . 'T is he that is to be accounted wicked , who sedititiously descants on Titles , to breed Commotions and Disorders . The Minister says , I defend the calumny of those Catholicks , in saying , 'T was a very hard question , whether the right to the Crown lay in Queen Elizabeth , or in the Queen of Scots . Reader , that which I said was , That this was a harder Question , then the Dispute of York and Lancaster , which cost so much Blood and Treasure : and because I would know your opinion , I will state these two Questions to you . York had the interest of a third brother by Marriage ; Lancaster that of a fourth Brother ; and these two dispute about the Crown of England which women are capable of . The second Question is this : Henry the eighth married his brothers wife , who was said to be a Virgin ; for Prince Arthur was but fifteene and a little more wen he died . By this Princess K. Hen. had our Q. Mary , and after he had lived with her 20 years , he fell in love with a handsome young Lady , whereupon he had in short time a scruple of Conscience that it was unlawful to live longer with his old wife , because she had been-married to his brother . His Conscience being still tender , he caused the Scriptures to be searched , and found not only there the Marriage to be void , but that the Pope himself had no power in England ; and besides , that rich Abbies were also contrary to the word of God. Being thus truly informed , he threw away Wife , Pope and Monks , and married the other , by whom he had Queen Elizabeth , while his first Wife lived . 'T was thought by many curious wits , that there could be but one of the daughters legitimate , because both Mothers were contemporaries , and that to Christians the Scripture permits but one wife at a time . After the death of this King and his Son , 't was put to the Kingdom to decide , which of these children were lawfully begotten : both Lords and Commons acknowledged Mary for their Queen , which was as much to say she was born in true Wedlock . Nor did Luther himself fail to disapprove of Queen Elizabeths a birth . I doubt not , but the people were informed of the cause of the Kings scrupule , as also that this brother Arthur had never known his wife . Nay , before K. Henry married Queen Katherine , she protested she was a Virgin and offered to be tryed by b Matrons . The Bishop of Ely also c deposed , That the Queen ( whom all , even the King himself esteemed for a Saint ) had often in confession told him , she never carnally knew the Prince . Nor in the whole examination was there any colourable pretence produc'd , but the common vanity of all boys to be thought men before their time : For 't was affirmed , Arthur should say the next morning after Marriage , that he had been in Spain that night . Besides this there were those , I believe , that told the People , that though St. John forbad Herod to take his brother Philips wife , because his said Brother was then alive , ( for Josephus d sayes , Herodias parted from her husband Philip in his life time , and in contempt of the lawes married Herod ) yet he never prohibited by those words a Christian to marry his sister in-law if her Husband were dead . The Case being thus fancied by the Papists ( in the time of Queen Elizabeth ) they argued , that if Mary was the true Child , then the other was the Natural : but Mary was owned Legitimate : And my Lord Bacon a say's the ligitimation of Queen Mary and Elizabeth were incompatible . Ergo the Kingdom not being Elective , Mary Stuart ( the next Legal Heir ) must necessarily succeed her . Yet suppose these Papists were wrong in their conclusion , I am sure nevertheless , I am still in the right , viz. That it is a harder Question to resolve , whether the Marriage be Null , if a woman marries two Brothers , then whether a third or fourth brother has the better Title to the Crown ; for that was the contest betwixt York and Lancaster . But the Minister urges , if the Papists thought Queen Elizabeth an Usurper , why did not they stir sooner ? for there was no Rebellion , he says , in ten years : and when after ten it broke out in the North , there was not the least mention made of the Q. of Scots , or her Title . I wish the Catholicks had not only sat still ten years , but forty five years also ; yet to shew you that this Minister will be wrōg in every thing , I shall give you a most succinct account of this business . Queen Mary of England in , the latter part of her Reign was in a open war with France , and the Qu. of Scots was then b Wife to the Dauphin . This Hostility , and the private designs of Spain , hindred all intrigues of the Queen of Scots friends to secure the Succession . Things being in this condition , our Queen dies ; nor did the Dauphin make any present claim ; which together with the natural coolness of Englishmen to all strangers , especially the French , moved Archbishop Heath to what he did . About some six months after this , the Dauphin takes upon him the Title and Armes of c England ; and immediately also by the death of his Father , the Crown of France fell to him , which gave him the name of Francis the Second . But by that time Q. Elizabeth was too well setled to be deposed without blows ; and before things could be ordered for such an enterprize , the Hugonots lay so heavy on his shoulders , that he was necessitated to the d Treaty at Edenburgh , by which he was to relinquish his former pretences in relation to England : yet before these Articles were sealed , the King himself died , and so all things stood as they were before . The Q. of Scots being now a widow , returns with much ado to Scotland , which was all in a flame , by the seditious preaching of the new Reformists . Assoon as she arrived there , ( Q. Elizabeth having often sent to her to ratifie the Treaty with her Husband ) she a after consideration returned answer , That she was content to do so , upon condition she were by Parliament declared her Heir . This Proposition seemed not strange to her English well-willers , because our Histories could tell them , That Maud the Empress was necessitated to the like by King Stephen . But Queen Elizabeth would not harken to those terms ; whereupon presently Margaret Niece to Henry the Eighth , the Earl of Lenox her husband , Arthur Pool and his Brother , Grandchildren to George Duke of Clarence , Fortescue and others , were apprehended , for intending to b set up the Queen of Scots interest . The fact they confest ; but ( as all malefactors find something to extenuate their crimet ) hey pitcht upon the weakest excuse that ever was heard of ; viz That they intended not to depose Queen Elizabeth , but to be beforehand in Arms , because Conjurers had told them she would dy that year . After this , the vigilancy of Q. Elizab. was such , and the disasters of Scotland so great , that the Catholiques were forc'd to sit quiet for a while . Instead of Peace with the Rebels , the Queen of Scots was necessitated to seek for shelter in a England , where ( had she been used as the Honour of the Nation required ) she would have concluded an inviolable agreement between the Queen , and those Catholiques that stood for her Title . But when this Royal Guest had once trusted her self among her Enemies , she was both denied access to the Court , and also refused the liberty of retiring into another Kingdom . This inhumanity was quickly noised about the World ; whereupon Pius V. sent b Ridulph a Florentine to consult with the Catholiques about the Interest of their Queen . All Arguments were used which could possibly be thought of , to persuade her Enemies to let her go : and when no fair means would do , c the Rising in the North happened . 'T is true , the Declaration of those great Lords that were up , mentioned no other motive but Religion ; because this could not shock either the Queen or People so much , as the name of the Queen of Scots would have done ; for that implied ipso facto the altering both of Religion and Government also . Who is ignorant that that Great man our General ( whose memory all ages shall for ever honor ) concealed at first what he had long determined ? well knowing , that the once naming of the King would ruine that design , which his wit so well laid , and his conduct so happily executed . Besides this , Reader , you must know , before this Rebellion broke out , Leonard Dacres , second Son to the Lord Dacres of Gylsland , undertook the delivery of the Queen , being then in Darbyshire in my Lord Shrewsburie's custody . Of this design my a Lord Northumberland was complotter ; therefore 't was plain , he being Chief in the Northern Insurrection , intended her Title , though there was nothing of it in his Delaration . Consider therefore how notoriously false this Minister is , there having been Claims , Plots , and endeavours by the greatest of the Land before the rising in the North ; and when it happened , that also was on the Queen of Scots account . 'T were tedious , Reader , to tell you how many attempts followed this Insurrection ; for there scarce passed a day , till the death of the Queen of Scots , but something was contrived to prevent the machinations of her unkind Kinswoman . By all this you may see , that while Queen Elizabeth used her distressed Guest with any kindness , the piety of that Princess ( which moved her rather to be contented with the Succession , then put England in a perpetual broyl ) caused her to command the English Catholiques to lie still ; whom ( according to the Ministers own confession ) the prohibition of their Religion forten years had not exasperated to Commotions . But assoon as their Queen was imprisoned without hopes of liberty , and they left to the dictates of their own Loyal inclinations , they never ceased either at home or abroad to sollicite the destruction of their Enemies . Consider also , I beseech you , the carriage of the Popes , who used all fatherly and gentle means imaginable , because they saw the Queen of Scots , whose right they deemed it was , of her self inclining ( like another Maud ) to expect , till the death of her Cozen should put an end to all pretences . These Popes were sufficiently urged by the Duke of Guise and others ; yet upon the former considerations ( being desirous of peace ) they never had practices against Queen Elizabeth , till Mary Stuart was in prison ; nor ever publisht the Excomcommunication , till the Queen absolutely refused her liberty , even after the intercession of a the French and Spanish Embassadours . But the Minister says , the Popes owned Queen Elizabeths Title , and therefore Papists ought not to have disputed it . 'T is true he says so , and yet confesses , that Paul the IV. ( who governed the Church when she came first to the Crown ) would not acknowledge her Legitimate . But how comes the Gentleman to say , that the other cause of his Holiness's not acknowledging her , was , because she audaciously assumed the Crown without his leave ? Does he find any such record in our Histories ? Did Queen Mary ask his consent ? Did any Pope send in this manner to Edward the Sixth ? Or lastly , which of all our Kings used to entreat his favour to be Crowned ? Reader , this is a pretty capricchio of the Parson , as it had been unusuall if the Pope had made such a claim . Pius the Fourth succeeding the said Paul ( for the reasons aforesaid ) shewed as much prudence and good nature as ever man did , in hope to compose things without effusion of blood : and certainly after his death as much had been spilt , as ever was in any Reign , had not Queen Elizabeth been the wisest woman that ever swayed Scepter . Pius V. followed the method of his Predecessors , and would have continued it , had not the barbarous usage of the Queen of Scots provok'd him to an Excommunication , and all hostile endeavours . His Bull , I know , speaks not of Bastardy in plain terms ; yet with our Ministers good leave , the Pope in that very Bull calls our late Queen Mary a Legitimate ; which saying was as much against Q. Elizabeth , as if he had spoken in a bolder phrase . For as I urged before , my Lord Bacon b says , That the Legitimations of Q. Mary and Queen Elizabeth were incompatible . In this manner the Popes acknowledged her : and for the Marriages which were offered her ( & to very much purpose forsooth urged by the Minister ) from forreign Monarchs , it proves no more right , then that Mrs. Cleypole had been truly our Queen , if France , Spain , or the Emperor had made love to her ; and I believe no body doubts , but Suiters would have flockt , had she been unmarried , and sole Heir to her Father . Though Gregory XIII . sent to invade Ireland , and Sixtus V. gave England to the Spaniards , yet I do not see , that this can touch us Catholicks in the least , though the Minister thinks it a mighty Argument . For if the French King may invade St. Christophers , or any part of our Dominions , without drawing the Name of Villain on him or his people : Why may not the Pope ( being a Temporal Prince ) send forces to subdue what Country he pleases ? The Bishop of Munster , for his smart endeavours against the Hollanders , was never blamed , but on the contrary commended by us ; and certainly the Pope is as absolute , and as good a man as he . Kings , you see , may fall upon their Neigbours themselves , and without breach of Morality , incite others to do the like ; and while Popes are free Princes , they cannot be reproach'd for using that liberty , without great partiality and malice . This Minister foolishly handles all things , and you may see his intent is only to make a noise : for 't is no advantage ( in our present Dispute ) to him to shew , what Kingdoms Popes over-run , or give away . That which he ought to prove was , That it is Article of Faith amongst us , to assist the Pope in every such invasion , or Gift . That this is not so you may plainly see ; for one fifth of the Turks Army are of his Christian Subjects , and yet none of them are ever blamed as heritiques for defending the grād Seigniors Territories . In the next place , whē was it heard that any English Catholick was fain to do pennance like an accurst persō for assisting the Queen against the Spanish Invasion ? for there was no● Papist then in England for the a Spaniard . Or who in Ireland in her Reign , thought himself given to the Divel , for fighting against San Joseph , who came for the Kingdom upon his Holiness account ? For the b Bishop of Armath confesses , The English Papists in Ireland were faithfull in all the invasions by Spaine or Pope . Now whether Pope or Spaniard intended after Conquest to restore the Kingdom to the Queen of Scots or her Heirs , I know not ; but this I am sure of , that 't was as probable , as that the Hollanders ( who were assisted by the Arms of some Caualiers , and the good wishes of us all ) would have given King Charles the Second possession of England , had they got it from the Rump . If Clement the Eighth earnestly strove that Queen Elizabeths Successours should be Catholiques , I suppose no body can blame him for it ; but I would fain have it shewed me , that King James's admission to the Crown ( a Protestant from his Childhood ) was opposed by the Catholiks of this Kingdom . If they stickled not after his Mothers death for him as they did for her , this answer is sufficient , That he was not used like her , nor did he ( for fear of prejudicing his future admittance ) ever desire any body to stir in his behalf . I suppose , Reader , you wonder why I should challenge any man to shew me how the English Catholicks opposed King James his Succession , when as this Minister tells us out of Cambden , That the Papists negotiated the Spanish Invasion ; That afterwards they perswaded the Earl of Darby to pretend to the Crown ; That Doleman alias Parsons writ in the behalf of the Infanta's Title ; and to conclude his Accusation , de declares , That the Catholicks of Scotland ( Huntly and others ) raised a powerful Rebellion against this Prince . First , Concerning the Invasion , the Minister says more then the Author himself whom he quotes ; a for Cambden only says , that some English Fugitives did promote it ; and who knows not that Fugitives in all ages , and in all Religions , machinate against those whom they call their Oppressors ? and on the other side , who is ignorant , that many Papists , more considerable far then a few fugitive Priests ( for most of the chiefest were so ) assisted the Kingdom in that War , and in all its other contests abroad ? Secondly , If some of these Fugitives did perswade my Lord of Darby , it was , I say again , done like Fugitives , nor had they ever the consent of the Catholiques for it . It was certainly a very rediculous Plot in them to make a Protestant Nobleman ( that had so poor a Title ) their Soveraign ; and if it were really designed , It must , I am sure , have been performed by the Protestants themselves ; for the Papists had no power , not being able so much as to set up the Qu. of Scots , who had so plausible a right , though they wanted not the assistance of the Pope , Spaniard and all the Guisard Faction . And by the way this Earle was not poison'd ( as the Minister would have it ) for Stow has a Diary and the Particulars of his sicknesse and say's a The causes of all his deseases were thought by Phisitians , partly a surfet , and partly distempering himselfe with vehement excercise 4. days togeather in Easter weeke . Thirdly , For Dolemans Book , who writ it , God knows , Parsons denied it at his death ; and I believe he was not the Authour , because in some of his works he speaks so much to the advantage of a K. James . Moreover , he was a man of far more wit then to write so foolish a thing : for was not that man strangely simple , that would dedicate his Book to my L. of Essex ( as the Minister would have it , to prick forward an ambitious man ) and yet the whole matter of the Treatise is to prefer the Infanta's Title before all persons whatsoever . But Reader , if this kind of arguing be lawful , that the errours of some unknown men , must be laid to a whole Party , how miserable would the Protestants themselves be , when we come to try them by the same Touchstone ! I will not stoop to so mean and insignificant a Topick , but tell you what Protestants still alive can testifie , viz That in the latter end of the Queens Reing , My Lord of Hertfords Title was often cried up to Tumult in the streets : Nor had that a slight impression ( he being esteemed next to the Stuarts in blood ) on many a wellmeaning man , because the English have a reluctancy at first to the thoughts of a stranger . Nay some b Members of Parliament ( after his admission said openly in the House , Th●t no people endued with Natural desire of Preservation would admit a Prince of a beggerly Nation to Reign over them , how just soever his claim were , for fear of loosing their propriety , as dear as life it self , and as vigorously to be defended . By this therefore , Reader , may be seen the rancour of the Reformed against the Kings coming in , since they durst say such things even after his reception : and had not the last Earl of Pembrook wisely pocketted up Ramsey's switching at Newmarket ( when the people cried , Let us break-fast with the Scots here , and dine with the rest at London ) 't was feared that day would have been as fatal to the King as the fifth of November might have proved . Papists therefore it seems were not his only Enemies . Concerning Huntly's Rebellion , I am sure the man is doubly mad in mentioning it , for first ( according to a Cambden whom he cites ) The rising was to help the Spaniards against Queen Elizabeth , who had put to death their Queen : nor was there ever a formed insurrectiō so gently punisht by a King ; which argues they had no malice against him . Nay , his Majesty is pleased to say in his b Basilicon Doron , That the Puritans had put out many Libellous Invectives against all Christian Princes , and that no body answered them , but the Papists ; by which he said the scandal was doubled ; for they were the Reformed who calumniated , and the Catholiques were the only Vindicators . Secondly , If the Rebellion ( suppose it as bad as may be ) of these Lords of another Country , of another age , must touch us the present Catholicks of England , what a blow would this be to the Reformed Religion , should I repeat the Scots unparallel'd actions against their Queen ; The protecting of Bothwel ( who would have destroy'd King James ) by the a English : And lastly , ( omitting the continual slavery he was in ) the downright Conspiracie of the b Gowries against his life ! Having thus gone through the Paragraph , I must come to the nicest Question of all ; and nice , I may call it , because it is conjectural only . The proposal by the Minister is this : Whether if the Queen of Scots had been a Protestant , we should have stickled for her ? and if Queen Elizabeth had not been thought illegitimate , whether nevertheless we had not rebelled against her ? To the first , I say , viz. We had sided with the Q. of Scots , had she been Protestant . To the second , No , That the Papists would not have opposed Queen Elizabeth , had they thought her legitimate : and of the Ministers own assertions , I will make this plainly appear . For if according to him , the Papists would have set up two Protestants ( the Lords Darby and Essex ) who in reality had no right , then I say , 't is certain they would willingly have embraced the Title of the Stuarts , that carried so fair a shew . To the second , I answer , That they would never have opposed Queen Elizabeth had she been thought Legitimate : For if ( as the Minister urged in the beginning ) they obeyed her whom they thought an Usurper for ten years , though she had utterly destroyed their Religion , 't is then more then probable , had her Title been good in their opinion , they had submitted , let her Faith have been what it would . These doubts being thus resolved by the very Gentleman that proposed them ( who cares not , if he can wound us for the present , into what contradictions at last he runs himself ) I may , I hope [ since he hath shewed me the example ) propose a Query also ; and I shall thank him , if out of my Reply he gives the Solution . I will not urge my Question so far as to suppose the Queen of Scots had been a Protestant , but my demand shall be singly this , Whether the Reformed in those days would have quietly obeyed Queen Elizabeth , had she stood up for the Catholick Religion ? Reader , because the Parson is not ready to give his determination , I will tell you my opinion , which is , that I think they would not , and doubtless this cōjecture is not rash , when we consider what has been done here , and recorded by our Protestant Historians themselves . Have we not seen that ( for the safety of Religion ) Edward the Sixth gave away by the advice of his Councel the Kingdom to Jane Gray ? and what Bees could be so busie as Cranmer and Ridley , with many thousands more , to set up ( against their lawful Queen Mary ) that poor Lady , who had not right enough by blood , and much less if she depended wholly upon the Will , for that was void from the beginning , according to the known Laws of the Land ? How many treasonable Books were written against this Queen after she came to the Crown , by Mr. Goodman and others , asserting , That she ought to be put to death as a Tyrant , Monster and cruel Beast ? Will Thomas also conspired to murther her ; and when he was to be hanged for his Treason , he said , he died for his a Countrey . By all which may be gathered ( the Duke of Suffolke also with many more protestants being ready , and Wiat actually in an open and dangerous rebellion , ) how dangerous it was then in England for a Prince to be a Papist ; though to that day there had never sat but one through Protestant upon the Throne , and he a Child about sixteen when he died . But now I must descend to a far more tragical example , even to the death of the so often mentioned Qu. of Scots , who lost her life barely upon the account of her Religion . 'T is true Queen Elizabeth considered her own safety , but the fury of the Nobility and people , ( without whose incitement she durst not have been beheaded ) was purely for fear she might have survived Queen Elizabeth , and being then the undoubted Successour , might have changed Religion as the former Queen Mary had done before . If I should urge this barely upon my own word , I might be mistrusted ; therefore what I say shall be out of Cambden , who was not only a Protestant , but the acknowledged true Annalist of those times . He will tell you , that after Babingtons Conspiracy , in the consultation what should be done with the Royal Prisoner , some were for holding her in safe custody , but others ( out of care of a Religion ) would have her tried and exexecuted . In pursuance then of this advice , she was condemned , and the next Parliament the House petitioned for the execution of her Sentence . The first reason in their supplicate was , for the preservation of the true b Religion of Christ ; and after they had told Queen Elizabeth also of her own danger , they harpt again upō the former string , desiring her to remēber Gods fearful judgments upon Saul and Ahab , for their sparing Benhadad and Agag , two wicked and profane Idolaters . In fine , when the fatal day came , though they were so very severe as to deny her ( being a Guest , and a free Princess ) what all Embassadours have , viz. a Preist to assist her at her death , she was again recomforted , when she knew by the Earl of Kent , that she died for her Faith : for he told her , that her life would be the destruction of their c Religion . Reader , I must now here end , and cannot but ask this Question , If the Reformed have for defence of their Religion effected the death of their Queen , or at least undoubted Heir ; and if they have set up Jane Gray , that had no title , because their lawful Prince was Catholick ; who have been I would fain know in England more faulty in this case , they or we ? Pray what advantage has this Minister got by loading us with crimes , of which we are innocent ? And if , as he urges in the beginning , we obey'd Q. Elizabeth ten years without stir , it then shows that Papists can be obedient to a Prince of another Religion , though they doubt their right ; whenas the former Protestants would do any thing rather then permit a Catholick to govern , let the Title be never so just . Judge now , Reader whether it be not superlative injustice to incense the World against us , as if our Religion taught nothing but blood , and theirs all gentleness imaginable . I must invoke both Angels and Men to consider our wrong , who are termed trayterous in our Principles , even to this day . We in our own persons have shewed all the duty that men can fancy , and for our Ancestors you have seen what their Plea is ; if it be bad , they have justly suffred ; if other wise , let them then feel your anger , who would deceive you thus with lies ; and remember that 't is not possible a Religion which governed England with glory so many years , can teach a Doctrine destructive to Princes , or infuse Maxims that will breed commotions among the people . SECT . XXIII . APOLOGY . 'T was for the Royal House of Scotland that they suffered in those days , and 't is for the same illustrious Family we are ready to hazard all on any occasion . ANSWER XXII . Sir , We have found you notoriously false in that which you affirm : Pray God you prove true in that which you promise . SECT . XXIV . APOLOGY . Nor can the consequence of the former procedure be but ill , if a Henry the Eighth ( whom Sir Walter Rawleigh and my Lord Cherbury , two famous Protestants , have so homely characterized ) should after twenty years co-habitation , turn away his wife , and this out of scruple of Conscience ( as he said ) when as History declares , that he never spared woman in his lust , nor man in his fury . ANSWER XXIV . This Character , he says , agrees better with some Heads of the Church , then with King Henry the Eighth , of whom better Historians ( naming Thuanus ) say better things : but if he were such a Monster , 't was for want of a better Religion , for he was of ours , except in the point of Supremacy ; and therefore I have no reason to flurt at him , except having undertaken to colour Treasons , I think 't is something towards it to bespatter Kings . I use , he says , the same Art in the next Paragraph to excuse the Powder-Treason , calling it a misdemeanour , the fifth of November , a Conjuration , all soft words , but deal hardly with the great Minister of State , whom I make the Author of it , as if the State had conspired against the Traytors , not the Traytors against the State. Then he tells the old Story of the Gunpowder-Plot , and how discovered by my Lord Mounte●gles Letter , and also how the Jesuites Baldwin , Hammond . Tesmond and Gerrard were named by the Conspirators as privy with them . The Narration is in any Book that treats of King James , and well known by every body : therefore for brevities sake , I have omitted it here . REP. to ANSW . XXIV . Reader , If the Character do agree better with many heads of our Church , then , I say , in Gods name let it be given them . But I much admire how Thuanus comes to be esteemed a better historian in English affairs then Sir Walter Raleigh , or my Lord Cherbury , whom we poor English-men think very excellent . But why do I trouble you wi●● the extravagancies of this strange man , w●● when he finds ( as he fancies ) a present expedient , cares not though he be forc'd to deny it again in the next page . What I have said of Henry the Eighth , these two famous men have said it , and a a thousand times worse , though they were Protestants , and the first of them the great admirer of his Mrs. the daughter of this very Prince . Nay ( omitting the unexpressable foul Language of the Reformed at home and abroad , especially of Luther himself ) the Bishop of b Hereford ( a Member of the Church of England ) calls him , unsatiable glutted with one , and out of variety seeking to enjoy another . I shall speak no more to this , nor any thing separately to the next four Paragraphs , for they all concern the Powder-Treason . You shall see what he says to each of them , and then my Answer shall follow in one intire discourse . SECT . XXV . APOLOGY . Now for the fifth of November , with hands lifted up to Heaven , we abominate and detest . ANSWER XXV . Here he asks , Whether it be the Festival , 〈◊〉 the Treason we abominate and detest . If the 〈◊〉 , he says , he will believe us without lifting 〈◊〉 our hands . If the Treason , he asks why we do not call it so ; which while we cannot afford to do , lifting up our hands will never perswad 〈◊〉 we abominate and detest it . SECT . XXVI . APOLOGY . And from the bottom of our hearts , say , that may they fall into irrecoverable perdition , who propagate that faith by the blood of Kings , which is to be planted in truth and meekness only . ANSWER XXVI . He says , I should be cautious of throwing such Curses , for fear of hitting our Father the Pope ; as the Philosopher told the son of a common-woman , that threw stones among a multitude . SECT . XXVII . APOLOGY . But let it not displease you ( Men Brethren , and Fathers ) if we ask whether Ulisses be no better known ? or who has forgot the Plots of Cromwel , framed in his Closet , not only to destroy many faithful Cavaliers , but also to ●ut a lustre upon his Intelligence , as if nothing could be done without his knowledge ? Even so did the then great Minister , who drew some few ambitious men into this conjuration , and then discovered it by a Miracle . ANSWER XXVII . Here he calls me Apostle and Poet , full of Gravity , and Fiction . Then he says , I would make the World believe they were drawn into this Plot by Cecil ; yet am so wise as not to offer to prove it , but would steal it in by the example of Cromwel . Again , he says ( admitting this for true ) they were Traytors nevertheless in doing what they did , had there been no Cecil in the World : and therefore the excuse only implies , they had not wit to invent it , though they wanted not malice to execute it ; for according to my illustration , as the Cavaliers whom Cromwel drew in , had their Loyalty abused , and were nevertheless faithful still ; so the Powder-Traytors ( whom Cecil drew in ) had their disloyalty out witted , and were nevertheless Traytors still : For 't is clear , by being drawn in , both parties were sufficiently disposed for it . What I lay upon Cecil , he says is a groundless and an impudent Fiction , which I am properly the author of for no body ever spoke it before but in railery . He asks by what Tradition or Revelation I received it sixty years after the fact , when as neither K. James , nor Bellarmine , nor the Apologists of that age knew any thing of it . He desires to know who were Cecils setters , that would be hanged , that his art might not be suspected , for none were saued ; and Garnet said , he would give all the World to clear his name and Conscience of the Treason . These are strong presumptions for the Negative of Cecils having no hand in the Plot : but he says , there is only my bare word for the affirmative ; which if it be enough , ●ere is a never-failing Topick to write Apologies for any Villany , viz. that the then great Ministers of State drew them in . In Queen Elizabeths days we had a higher game to fly at , to wit , her Title to the Crown ; but durst not make so bold with King James , otherwise we had not stoopt to a Minister of State. He says farther , that I strive to diminish the Plot , by calling the Plotters Desperadoes , who could not be called so by reason of Poverty , because their Estates were great ; nor by reason of discontents ; for there was not a man , as King James said , that could pretend a cause of grief . If the cause was , because they had not all they desired , it is so far from excusing them , that it gives occasion to suspect me . I ought , he says , to call the Discovery a Miracle , because King Iames named it so , and especially since Bellarmine acknowledged it so : but 't is no wonder , that I , who will not call the Plot , Treason , will not allow the Discovery to be a Miracle . SECT . XXVIII . APOLOGY . This will easily appear , viz. how little the Catholique Party understood the design , seeing there were not a score of guitlty found , though all imaginable industry was used by the Commons , Lords , and Privy-Councel too . ANSWER XXVIII . He says , few understood the very design , for 't was not safe to tell it many ; but Papists generally knew there was a design , and pray'd for the success of it . Though but a score were in the Plot , yet fourscore appeared in Rebellion ; nor is it probable so small a number could think to do much by surprizing Princess Elizabeth , unless they expected other assistance . But Treason , he says , is hated by all , when unsuccessful . REPLY to ANSW . XXVIII . 'T was never in my heart ( and so will all that know me testifie ) to think that the Conspirators in this Treason were not Traytors in the highest degree , or that any punishment could equal the blackness of their offence . In the Apology I am sure there are no words that can be rackt to this ; for my intent there was only to shew in short that the Catholick body was innocent , knowing nothing of the entreprize : That the Plot ( for which these were executed ) was made , or at least fomented by the Policy of a great Statesman . And lastly , though the design had been suggested by Papists alone , and unanimously approved by all , yet we that live now are guilty of no sin , and therefore 't were severe to be punisht for it . That the Catholick Body had no hand in the Treason , most plainly appears by the quality of the Actors , and by the number of them . I know there were four or five Gentlemen of Ancient blood engaged ; but I look upon that as no wonder : for out of the first twenty Catholicks accidentally met I 'll lay a considerable wager to find as great Families as any were there , unless that of the Percies : yet this Percy was a man of no fortune , nor am I certain ( though I well know my Lord Northumberlands Relations ) whether really he was a kinsman , or only for names sake called his Cozen. A Plot is lookt upon as general , when a good number of the Chief of a Party are intrigued in the design . The Catholick Noblemen were then not only as considerable as any , but also the considerablest of the Nation : for at that time there being no Duke , but the late King , the first Marquess , the first Earl , the first Viscount , and the first Baron were of our Profession ; and I believe 't will be granted , that the Lords Winchester , Arundel , Mentacute , and Abergavenny , ( and so proportionably the rest of the Papal Nobility ) had Estates able to be Partizans , if they thought fit , in any conjuration . Now none of these Noblemen , nay , not one of all the Peers , nor any more of the Gentry then the Traytors , whom I will by and by mention , had a hand in the design : therefore to call this , as the Minister and others do , an universal Popish Plot , is in it self a contradiction , or at least a riddle beyond my capacity to unfold . For the number of these Gunpowder Traytors , they were but thirteen Laymen in all : whereof four , viz. Catesby , Percy , and the two Wrights were killed in the apprehending . a Tresham died in the Tower. And eight suffered , as Faun , Keys , Ba●e● , Graunt , Rookwood , the two Winters , and Digby ; and 't is evident there were no more of the Cōspiracy , seeing that in all their examinations no Gentleman was discovered ; which could not happ● out of design to save their friends , because several secret particulars they a revealed ; and Baldwin , Hammond , Tesmond , and Gerard , being Jesuites , were ( as the Minister says ) found Actors in the Plot. If then the Malefactors did accuse their Confessors , ( as our Adversarys calls them ) certainly they would never have spared others , had there been any more guilty . Besides this of their accusing no-body , the Commons , Lords , and Privy Councel were so vigilant , that they left no stone unturn'd to find the depth of the Plot : and to shew how nice they were in all manner of suspitions , the Lords b Sturton and Mordant , two Catholicks , were fined , only because absent from the House that day ; by which 't is plain they were so far from finding positive proof , that there was not the least glimpse of any thing , otherwise they would never have descended to so slight a possibility ; for there is not a day wherein the Parliament sits , but there may be found more Catholicks out of the House , then were then . Nay , the circumspection was so great , that my a Lord Northumberland a protestant was imprisoned for many years , as thought perchance to know somewhat , because being Captain , he had admitted Percy into the Band of Pensioners . Thus , Reader , you see how impossible it is , that the Catholick Party were involved here in ; and for the fourscore that appeared with them in Rebellion , they were only Servants and Horse-boys , who ( as b Sanderson says ) were watcht hourly , for fear of quitting their Masters : and this also c Speed confirms , affirming , that these were ever ready to steal from the Conspirators ; and that more care was in keeping them , then trust reposed either in their faith or defence . Nor can any thing make this truth more evident , then that none but the thirteen aforefaid suffered either for the Plot or rising . Concerning the Plot it self , Reader , those that set it a working were the discoveres of it : for you must know it was a piece of wit in Queen Elizabeths days , to draw men into such devices ; nor were any more excellent in the Art then Burleigh and Walsingham , to the first of whom , this Cecil mentioned by the Minister , was son , and successor to the other in the very Secretariship . Making and ●omenting Plots was then , I say , in fashion ; for when Gifford discovered to Walsingham that Babington had a desing in the behalf of the Q. of Scots , the Secretary writ to Sir A. Pawlet her keeper , to let some of his Servants be d corrupted ; and thereupon the Brewer was considered as the fittest man ; by which means the Queen receiving and sending Letters , Walsingham had the perusal of them : and thus when many were drawn in ( as most loose people may , if Statesmen lay gins ) they were all at last taken and hanged . The same trap caught the Queen also ; for they first kept her in prison to make her earnest for liberty ; then opened her , as you see , a way for correspondency at home & abroad to procure her freedom ; and because of this she was condemned to die , there being a Law a year before on purpose prepared against her , on hopes of such and the like b Conspirations . But this Statute had been too weak , as Lawyers well know , to put a free Princess to death , had she not been a Papist , and not otherwise to be hindred from the Crown after the decease of Queen Elizabeth . Such a trick as this for our destruction was again invented by the Statesman , who bore as every body kn●w a particular hatred to all of our Profession ; and this increased to see the new King not only to receive into his Councel Henry Earl of a Northampton , a● eminent Catholick , but also to hear his Majesty speak to the two Houses a little against Persecution of b Papists , when as there had been nothing within those Walls but invectives against them for above forty years together . What could now destroy our hopes with this gratious Prince , but a seming Plot against his Life and Line ? Nor was it any hard thing for a Secretary to know turbulēt and ambitious spirits , who perchance had had designs in the reign of Queen Elizabeth . 'T is not possible to discover the whole trāsaction of a great Minister that died in prosperity : but 't is argument enough to assert this , that if a Person ( a famed Professor in c tricks , hating and envying us , as I said before ) contrived a most material part , he cōtrived also the rest : and certainly ( with some few considerations upon it ) this miraculous Letter which discovered the Gunpowder-Plot , will discover our Statesman to be the Author of it . The d Letter is thus . My Lords . Out of the love I bear some of your friends , I have a care of your preservation , therefore I could wish you ( as you tender your life ) to forbear the attendance at this Parliament , for God and man have concurred to punish the wickedness of this time . Think not slightly of this advertisement ; for though there be no appearance of any stir , yet I say , they shall receive a terrible blow this Parliament , and yet they shall not see who hurt them . This Counsel 〈◊〉 not to be contemned , because it may do you good , and can do you no harm : for the danger is past as soon as you have burnt the Letter , and I hope you will make good use of it . Reader , I doubt not , but you have often heard in the Pulpit , as wel as from the Ministers relation , how the Papists plac'd 36. barrels of Powder under the Parliament-House , and that Faux with his dark-lanthorn was to set them on fire , and so at one clap blow up King , Lords and all . This you know was discovered by the Letter aforesaid , sent to my Lord Monteagle , and by it t●e whole design was found out the night a before the Parliament sat ; for great Adventures do always come to light just as they are to be executed . Now , Reader , let me entreat you seriously to consider , and tell me whether it could be a Popish Plotter that writ this Letter . For is it possible that any mans hould be so distracted ( after they had brought their Plot to that perfection , had so solemnly sworn , even a by the Trinity and Sacrament , never to disclose it directly or indirectly , by word or Circumstance , and resolved also to blow up all the Catholique Lords and the rest of their friends in both houses ) I say all this Considered , is it possible that a man should be soe distracted as to write a Letter , that had more in it of disclosing some Plot , then the bare saving of a friend . 'T was reported that Percy writ it ; but no body ever found there were such superlative endearments between those two , or between any other of the Conspirators and Monteagle , as that they could stumble at this Noblemans destructiō , and yet dispence with killing so many of their own Religion , and Relations ; for b Speed says , Father , Brother , Friend , Ally , Papist , &c. were to have been blown up by these Traytors . But suppose that little intimacies between my Lord and Percy ( c as Wilson says these were ) had produced so mighty a concern for his life , whereas my Lord Northumberland ( Percies Patron and only support ) was to be sacrificed without pity ; I say , suppose this , what need was there to write , That God and man would punish the Parliament , and this by a blow , and that they should not know who hurt them , and a hundred suspitious things to no purpose ? If it were out of a desire ( being an extraordinary friend ) to keep this Nobleman from the House that day , the Epistle-sender should have written in his own name and Character . That out of love to his preservation , he desired him to forbear the Parliament that day , because some were resolved to kill him : that as yet being under Oath , he could not tell him the particulars , but that shortly his promise would be void , and then he should know all things from him by word of mouth . Such a Letter as this would have certainly kept my Lord at home , when as the other must confound him and every body else , coming from an unknown person : nor could any thing in the world ( in the opinion of any fool ) more naturally have endangered a discovery then such needless circumstances , and notice also given so long before the execution . For , Reader , you must know , that the Letter was sent to Mounteagle a ten days before the fifth of November ; which no real Plotter would have done , since my Lord might have beē better keep 't at home , by advising him the night before . Nay , this long warning was so far from an appearance of advantage , that on the contrary it was quite opposite to all ▪ the designs of a Conspirator ; for 't was certain , either it would make my Lord carelesly contemn the admonition , since it came from an idle fellow in the street ; or else if he were apprehensive , he would necessarily shew it to friends , by which ( as I said ) there might be no little hazard to have all found out . Now on the other side , this interval was benecifial to a Machivilian , because he knew 't would not only be more grateful to the Privy-Councel to have time to consider on difficulties , but also foresaw , if the King and Lords ( through surprize or otherwise ) should not hit on the Plot , he must be forc'd to start hints ( the execution being so neer at hand ) which might easily have made him suspected for contriver ; and how ungrateful sulch a wickedness would have been to an upright Prince , he him self could not but well imagine . Thus , Reader , you see the intention of the Letter was to have the thing discover'd , and thus could he ruine his Enemies , and make his own vigilance appear ; for without such and the like remembrances , the wit of great Ministers is soon forgotten both by their Prince and People . Nor did Cecil miss of another reward also , for ( as a Sanderson says ) he was made Earl for his service in this business . That which I assert here , does not lessen the quickness of the Kings judgment ; for his insight as much appears , whether the Letter were writ by a Statesman or a Conspirator . Neither does this strike at the Festival enacted , because the Parliamēt finding by the prisoners taken there was such a Plot , could not but thank God , that theyr trayterous intention was discovered . And truly , if a score of wicked Christians had conspired against Nero himself , I would not gain say the remembrance of the delivery , in what Countrey soever it were observed . All that I here shew is , that the Catholique Party had no hand in the Treason , there being but thirteen Laymen in all , as you see plainly proved ; and these very thirteen were doubtless drawn in by their mortal Enemy ; for the Letter came by his contrivance , beeing ( as Osborn b confesses ) a neate devise of the Treasurer's , nor was he ignorant from time to time of all their actions . He that lived in our times has seen the Reign-of Queen Elizabeth reacted . For in those twelve years , from 1646. to 1658. you may remembrer the establisht Religion of the Nation altered ; an absolute Soveraign executed with formalities and pretences of Law , The French fond of our amity ; the Spaniard beaten ; and lastly , the zealous youth drawn into Plots with all ease imaginable . His Majesty had those about him that had learnt this Art in their old Mistress's Service ; and this the all-knowing King at last found out ; for 't was impossible that ever he would have been favourable to the Catholikes again , had he not in length of time , been assured thad they were innocent of all machinations against him . Reader , he was a constant Protestant , and yet so a kind to us the last half of his Reign ( of which Wilson complains ) that neither the Spanish Match , nor any other worldly hopes could have obtained this , had he not been convinc'd we never had a design of destroying him and His. Nay , the King in his own Declaration about it , says , That the generality of his Catholique Subjects did abhor such a detestable Conspiracy , no less then him self . Having thus replied to his Answer in the four last Paragraphs , there rests now a little to be said to some short jerks of his , which he loocks upon as witty and home . First , he is troubled that I call the Powder-Treason , Misdemeanor , Fifth of November , Conjuration , all of them being soft words . To this I say , I am very sorry I have offended him , and in my next Apology ( if that will content him ) I 'll speak in the longest sentence of the Cōmon Prayer about the matter : but my past errour grew from this , because significant brevity is aimed at by most ; and therefore when we speak of , or to the King , we say Sir , or your Majesty , and not at every word , Charles the Second by the Grace of God , King of England , Scotland , France & Ireland , Defender of the Faith , &c. so in handling this affair I use those short words that express the whole matter to the full ; for I think Treason is a Misdemeanor ; when more then one are in it , 't is a Conjuration ; and the Fifth of November , is the common phrase of the Kingdom . 2. ly He says , that K Iames's Male-Line were to have been all destroyed . Now a Baker says , That the late King then D. of York was only to have been suprized by Percy . But the matter is not material ; and I cite these Protestant Authors , only to shew that the malice of the Minister will make him erre in every thing . Thirdly , He thinks that my comparing of Cromwels drawing in the Cavaliers with this of Cecils , is very odd , and unequal : For the Cavaliers , he sayes , were cheated into a lawful Action , but the Powder-Traytors were out-witted into Treason . To this , I say , that my comparison was never intended ( as you may see if you look into the Apology ) to make an equality of Justice or Honour in their sufferings ; but to remember you how easie it is for Trapanners to draw people into Plots , and from thence to the Gallows . Fourthly , Concerning his desire to know who was Cecils setter to decoy in the rest ; I answer , I cannot tell : Nor should we ever have known who was Cromwels Instrument , had not Sir S. Morland most Loyally discovered him . There were three or four the Minister names discovered by the Conspirators , who knew of the Plot , and afterwards died obscurely abroad . Even so died Gifford the Priest ( Walsingham's — setter ) never visibly rewarded , who corrupted the Brewer , and so drew the Queen of Scots into the trap that ruined her , as has been already mentioned . Fifthly , Because he is angry with the word Desperadoes , I have altered it in this Edition , and put in lieu Ambitious men . I am sure the word in it self is proper enough , for most were poor ; and King James in his Proclamation against Percy a call's them men for the most part of desperate estates . But had they been never so rich , or in esteem , it would well have fitted with them also ; for my Lord of Essex and Marshal Byron were really Desperadoes , and yet wanted nothing , had they known their own happiness . Lastly , He says , few knew the manner , but most knew there was a design on foot , and prayed for the success of it . Suppose , Reader , this were true , that a design was recommended to the prayers of the Catholicks , what were they guilty of by it ? for at that time the Chief of them were solliciting at Court to get some little ease after their long misery ; and therefore the rest might well think their prayers were fit to be desired . But all this is a fiction . Thus , Reader , I have now left nothing unanswered that he has urged : and thus you see the Reasons I have to believe the Plot it self a Trick ; and besides , 't is plain the Body of the Catholicks had no hand , or inclination to the thing , which the wi●e K. James at last ( as I said ) well knew , & therefore was gratiously pleased to let the beams of his mercy shine again upon them . SECT . XXIX . APOLOGY . But suppose ( my Lords and Gentlemen , which never can be granted ) that all the Papists of that age were consenting ; Will you be so severe then to still punish the Children for their Fathers faults ? Nay , such Children that so unanimously joyned with you in that glorious Quarrel , wherein you and we underwēt such sufferings , that needs we must have all sunk , had not our mutual love assisted . ANSWER XXIX . He says , suppose falsly , to avoid truth ; for who says all Papists then were consenting , or who can deny there be some in this age of the same Principles with those Traytors ? and though we be not punisht for our Predecessors actions , yet we ought to be restrained , that we may not do like them . Though I would , he says , shuffle men of these Principles ( by the word unanimously ) among those that served the King , yet those good Servants are not so many , but the others may be easily distinguisht . Concerning those that only suffered with the Royallists , the Minister thanks them for their love , but not for their assistance ; for the Protestant Cavaliers could not sink lower , but some of us floated like cork , and others swam upon the bladders of dispensation ; and therefore as they received no help from our swimming , so they apprehend no assurance of us by our sufferings . REP. to ANSW . XXIX . Pray , Reader , what is in this Answer that confutes the Apology ? for what man of our Party did not faithfully serve the King to his power ? and who of us in his Majesties absence had not estimation among the rest of the Cavaliers , according to his ranck and quality ? was there any Party in England more deprest then we ? Were not Priests of all Orders hanged ? were not others imprisoned during life ? Had not we three times more Estates sold then any people else ? and were not the Laws put in force , so that to those that had something , two parts of it were also swept away ? Cromwel by is Maxims kept us poor , because we should not be service able to the King ; and now our Gratious Monarch being returned , this Godly Minister thinks fit to advise our restraint , as he calls it ( which in plain English is to desire we should beused as that Tyrant used us ) for fear we should do like our predecessors , i. e. assist his Majesty ; for I am sure all of them did so , and many confirmed that duty with their Blood. Can therefore be on Earth greater wickedness then this , not only to be forgetful in prosperity , but thus with calumny to asperse those , who were faithful fellow-sufferers with the Royall Party in the height of all theire misfortunes ? Reader , the hopes of this pitiless man is , that rigour and despair may stagger us in our Loyalty : but herin I defie him : for nothing can move them to contend , whom cōscience and Love have obliged to be obedient . SECT . XXX . APOLOGY . What have we done , that we should now deserve your Anger ? Has the Indiscretion of some few incenst you ? 'T is true , that is the thing Objected . ANSWER XXX . Sir , our anger is only a necessary care , that what you call your indiscretions , may not grow up to be such , as you lately called your misdemeanours . SECT . XXXI . APOLOGY . Do not you know an Enemy may easily mistake a Mass-Bell , for that which calls to Dinner ? ANSWER XXXI . We know he may upon a Fast-day , for then you use to ring your Vesper-Bell before Dinner . And how can a simple Heretick tell , whether it call you to pray , or to eat Fish ? But we do not know , that ever any of you was brought into trouble about that Question . SECT . XXXII . APOLOGY . Or a Sequestrator be glad to be affronted being Constable ? when 't was the hatred to his person , and not present Office , which perchance egg'd a rash man to folly . ANSWER XXXII . Possibly he may be glad of it . For 't was the Jesuitical distinction between Person and Office , that first helpt him to be a Sequestrator ; and now he sees the distinction come in play , he may hope to have his place again . REPLY to ANS . XXXII . Reader , you see he will divide a Paragraph , and answer to each division ( as he hath done in these three last ) though it be gibbrish , and nothing to purpose . The ringing of a Mass-Bell in Lancashire , the affronting a Constable , and some other such things , were Accusations brought to London against us . But how impudent is the Minister , to say , we were never in trouble , as he knows , for this ? when as every body knows what a do there has been ever since these complaints were alleadged by the known Enemies of the Kingdom . SECT . XXXIII . APOLOGY . We dare with submission say , let a publick Invitation be put up against any Party what soever ; nay , against the Reverend Bishops them selves , and some malicious informer or other will alledge that , which may be far better to conceal . Yet all mankind by a Manifesto on the House-door are encouraged to accuse us . Nor are they upon Oath , though your Enemies and ours take all for granted and true . ANSWER XXXIII . He says , here 's an ambush for Bishops to have them esteemed Popish , because I reverence them ; and obnoxious in such matters , as I say , it may be better far to conceal . But he knows my kindness , and defies my malice . They are Olympia's Bishops need concealment ; but the Bishops of England are of another make and hold not their credit at any ones courtesie . He farther says , what could the Parliament do less , then invite the People to bring in their grievances to the place of Redress ? and 't was great hardship , he says , that the House of Commons did not give Oaths to the Accusers , which no House of Commons ever did upon any occasion . REPLY . XXIII . If my respects to the Prelats of England have offended this Minister , I am sorry for it . We and the whole World know how zealous they are for Monarchy , and therefore I wish they had no greater Enemies then Papists : But if there be an ambush laid for them , Judge , Reader , whether we or the Cobler of Glocester have done it . 'T is an usual phrase among Catholicks when they shew the wickedness of Lyars , to say they are so abominable that they will not stick to calumniate the Church it self ; therefore I think kind expressions ought to have had a better requital . For Donna Olympia's Bishops , I suppose those of our Kingdom take them selves to be of the same make ; for hers received their Orders from Rome , and from the same Fountain , as I have read , the Church of England pretends to derive all Ordination whatsoever . The Minister needed not to have told me , that the Commons cannot administer Oaths , for I know the Orders of that House better then his Worship . I was not troubled that no Oath was given ; but seeing that no Oath could be given , 't was hard me thought , that the whole Town should take all things as unquestionable truths , though the Accusers were ( as I said ) profest enemies to us , and lately to the very Kingdom also . But now , I thank God , men understand themselves much better : for Lies can never long endure . SECT . XXXIV . APOLOGY . It cannot be imagined , where there 's so many men of heat and youth ( overjoy'd with the happy Restauration of their Prince , and remembring the Insolencies of the former Grandees ) that they should all , at all times prudently carry themselves ; for this would be to be more then men : And truly wee esteem it as a particular blessing , that God has not suffer'd many , through vanitie or frailty to fall into greater faults , then are yet as we understand laid to our charge . ANSWER XXIV . He says , If a Jesuite keep the reckoning ▪ the King will ever be in our debt : for our old Treasons were upon the account of his Family , and our late insolencies upon the score of his Restauration . Then he asks , whether I would seriously perswade men , that at six years distance we were still transported with that blessing . There were , he says , fresher causes of jollity suspected by many who saw our joy , while the fire raged in London , and two potent Enemies hovered on our Coasts . REPLY to ANSW . XXXIV . Many Accusations , Reader , were of two or three yaers standing and more , and no one thing amounted to a real Publick nuissance : let a man then cōsider this soberly , and he will find it no little wonder , that so many Catholiques of all Ranks , Sexes , Ages , and humours should for above six years together never so far indulge to their Passions , as to commit a fault fit to trouble Parliament with , though from all Countries the violentest of their Enemies came to offer up their complaints against them . For my part I do greatly admire at it , and must acknowledge a particular Providēce assisting ; nor can I but thank the Publisher of the Accusations , who malitiously intending us harm , has done us all the right imaginable . SECT . XXV . APOLOGY . Can we chuse but be dismay'd ( when all things fail ) that extravagant Crimes are fathered on us ? It is we that must be the Authors , some say , of firing the Citie , even we that have lost so vastly by it . Yet truly in this our ingenuity is great , since we think it no Plot , though our Enemie , an Hugonot Protestant acknowledged the fact , and was justly executed for his vain Confession . Again , if a Merchant of the Church of England buy Knives for the business of his Trade , this also presently is a Popish contrivance to destroy the well-affected . ANSWER XXXV . He says , Though we lost vastly by he fire of London , yet we may still be suspected by any body that considers Garnets determinations ▪ viz. that the innocent & guilty may be destroyed , so it be to a farther good . The loss it seems ( he says ) goes not to my heart , when I can be so pleasant to call Hubert my enemy , and a Hugonot Protestant , 't is true after that Hubert had been at confession with Father Harvey , he said he was a Protestant ; but ( it being beyond his instructions ) he denied he was a Hugonot , which he might well do , because he said ▪ he thought confession to a Priest necessary to salvation , and also repeated an Ave Mary which he said , was his usual Prayer . 'T is evident therefore that he was no Hugonot , nor Protestant ▪ nor enemy to Papists upon the account of Religion . REPLY to ANSW . XXXV . Concerning this Hubert a Frenchman that pretended to burn the City , you must know , He was son to a Protestant , a Protestant himself in France , had been of the French Church in England ; to the Committee , and to the Judge at the Bar , he profest then he was a Protestant , and died so at the Gallows . Certainly it was no Argument he was no Protestant , because he ( as the Minister says ) esteemed of Confession ; for I know many Protestants that have used it , some Divines have writ in behalf of it , and I remember Dr. Will was mightily for it , whem he governed his flock in Fleerstreet . An Ave Mary is Scripture , and whosoever reads the Salatation of the Angel and St. Elizab. does at that time actually say one , Besides , if no body is a Protestant that holds peculiar opinions , then I must conclude there are very few Protestants in the World : for Protestants in Religion agree only in Negatives , that is , they generally deny thé Pope , Purgatory , &c. but when they come to Positives , they jar , and then divide , and subdivide ( as we by experience see ) into a million of Sects and Factions . Reader , before I go farther , I must tell you who this Harvey is : by Nation he is a Low-Countryman , but admitted among the English Jesuites , as many Aliens are . He is an antient ; quiet , and pious man ; 't is lately I knew him , but found him to be of a very Angelical conversation . Many Priests being frō time to time imprisoned , brought him acquainted with Newgate , where sometimes he assisted those that went to die . This I call high charity in any man of any Sect , to take pains to make another of that Religion , which his Conscience tells him is most agreeable to God. Nor is there any humane interest or Policy in thus assisting Malefactours , for they are poor of themselves , and sure to die the next execution-day . By this occasion Mr. Harvey met with the French Hugonot [ the pretended firer of London ) with whom he had discourse about Religion ; and after he had instructed him in the Catholique Doctrine , he went to administer the Communion to the Company ; and then demanding of them , whether they received according to the Roman Catholick faith , Hubert said , He had nothing to do with Roman , and therefore the Sacrament was refused him ; nor did Mr. Harvey ever se him after . This is the truth of the Story . But , pray , what is the Frenchman to us , had he been Papist ? though ( as it happened ) he lived and died otherwise . For my part , I believe there are few Frenchmen now in London , but would be glad to see it afire again , either for an opportunity to steal , or for the advantage of their Prince , were he at War with us ; the like would the English wish at Paris , I dare say . Consider therefore , Reader ▪ I beseech you , my Answerer ; and though 't is at no time my humour to give foul language , yet I must say , I challenge all Englād to find out one that shall excel him in ill . He has accused us for the Murther of King Charles ; the cause of the English , Irish , and Scotish War ; the triumphing at ourmis fortunes at Sea ; the rejoycing for the Enemies being upon our Coast ; and then lastly the burning of Londō it self : yet all this urged without any manner of proof , no not so much as the least probability . Is one detraction against one onely man a sin , and punishable at the Judgment-seat of God hereafter ; and shall so various aspersions against so many of the best account in England pass for a toy ? I am sure , it is my belief , to think they shall die eternally ( if they repent not ) who defamed and did wrong even to those that crucified Christ . If then a woe be pronounc'd against such , what will become of them that asperse his Members ? and therefore if this Minister be a Christian be must know that without satis-factiō there is no forgiveness . Nay , the effects of his crimes have risen to this , to encourage other men to do the like ; for not long after , there was publisht ( as I just now mentioned ) a libell call'd the Committee of Parliaments enquiry about the firing the City ; and at last the wickedness of the Author laid it at the doors of the King , Duke , General , L. Craven , Chief Justice , and others of the chiefest account in the Nation . All that he said against Papists , was in truth to justifie them ; for no better Accusation could be found , then that several Frēchmen were busie about the fire : that a supposed Jesuite with a Bishop-sattin Suit ( over which was a frock ) came and firied a House ( the fire it self being , as the Libeller confesses , within six doors of it ) and when he was apprehended , he spake Latine without any necessity . Then he tells , that one Carpenter ( who is an Apostate Priest ) spoke for the Pope ; & that one or tws poor women were sollicited to be Papists , and told , Now was the time , for if they neglected this opportunity they should not be regarded hereafter . Nay , when nothing could be found against Papists , the Author cites Verses ( only found as he confesses in Westminster-Hal ) to threaten Protestants into Popery . And another Paper ( writ by a Papist , as he says , newly turned Protestant , and found in a Pew by a Templer ) in which he desired all Protestants to pursue Papists , for they had a design to cut their throats . This is the effect of the Pamphlet , which I would have every body read , for nothing can be a greater Vindication to us , then such inconsiderable and senceless Lies . And truly , when I consider these with the Stories against Papists in the Answer to Philanax , and how both are exactly made in the same mode and figure , I should not doubt but that Sieur du Moulin was the Author , were not the Libel so severe against his Countrymen the French. And pray Reader , consider here the Justice of God , who is a God of retaliation always : for as the Dr. strove to incite the people by his malitious falsities , which have not the least probability of truth , and which would involve all the Loyal Catholiques of England with one or two guilty men , if there had been any such ; so now there are spread such a number of Lies about our danger from the French , that people are ready to stone all they meet ; and should the rabble run into a sudden fury ( as God knows but they may ) Mr. du Moulin and his Family may perchance also go sharers with his Countrymen ; for his being a free Denizon would be thought a weak Argument by the outragious and overheated multitude . Concerning the Fire it self , Reader , I could never , as I said , think it a design , notwithstanding a Protestant Hugonot confest the fact ; and my reason was , because no body in his Senses would be so foolish with deliberation to venture his life , when 't was not only odds he should be found out , but the fire would be stopt before it came to the third house . How often have we seen it in the narrow places of London ? how often in the ill-building of Kings-street ? how often in the Paper-houses of Charing Cross , the Strand ? &c. and yet for all this ( whether it happened by night or by day ) it was quencht without any remarkable spoil . Besides , 't is impossible , if either Protestants , Papists , Presbyterians , or Phanatiques had effected so great a work but we should have seen some prosecution of their design , as either to be in Arms , or inviting in our forreing Enemies , or at leastwise raising tumults in the hurry . But on the contrary , there has not been since any preparation for a rising in England ; nay , which is more , for all that thirteen thousand Families were to seek new habitations , and all the rest of the Town disordered , yet there was not the least riot , though the accident it self might have occasioned a sedition , without being animated by Conspirators . In short , after a strict enquiry by the Parliament of England ( that Supream Court ) of the occasion of this dismal fire , 't was concluded to be the hand of God alone : and therefore I shall never think otherwise of it , though Hubert the Hugonot acknowledged himself the Author , and a Trig a Protestant brag 's that he foretold it in his Almanack printed almost a whole year before . Now because the Minister hath mentioned Garnet , I shall desire you , Reader , to peruse his b last words and confession , as you shall find them in How , who continued Stows History . He acknowledged his foul offence in concealing the Treason ; was sorry for it , asking God forgiveness for the same , beseeching a blessing for the King and his Issue ; and then exhorted all Catholiques never to attempt Rebellion , Treason or violent practises against his Majesty , for all such courses were utterly against the Catholick Faith. If then , Reader , a Jesuite known to be learned , and therefore not ignorant of the Doctrine of our Religion ; if also a Jesuite on the point of death , and so necessitated to speak truth , hath publiquely owned ( as a Protestant records ) that Rebellion is incompatible with Catholique Doctrine ; to affirm this still to be our Principle , is certainly a very high injustice : and if the practice of some few shall yet be urged against me as a Proof , then I must affirm , that the Church of England teaches Theft , because so many of their Members are monthly hanged for it at Tyborn . Reader , from hence to the end I shall still continue my first method of setting down the Ministers Answer to every Section of the Apology ; but I shall seldome Reply , because the poorness of the matter carries a cōfutation in it self , and therefore it would be a needless trouble both to you and me , if I should say something to each Paragraph . SECT . XXXVI . APOLOGY . We must a little complain , finding it by experience , that by reason you discountenance us , the people rage : and again , because they rage , we are the more forsaken by you . Assured we are , that our Conversation is affable , and our Houses so many hospitable receipts to our Neighbours . Our acquaintance therefore we fear at no time , but it is the stranger we dread ( that taking all on hear-say ) zealously ▪ wounds , and then examines the business when 't is too late , or is perchance confirmed by another , that knows no more of us then he himself . 'T is to you we must make our applications , beseeching you ( as subjects tender of our King ) to intercede for us in the execution , and weight the Dilemma , which doubtless he is in , either to deny so good a Parliament their request , or else run counter to his Royal inclinations , when he punishes the weak and harmless . ANSWER XXXVI . He says , he desires only to be safe ; and against our dangerous Principles , neither our affability nor hospitality can defend them : for the Irish never treated Protestants better then the year a fore they cut their Throats . The best means of security is the execution of the Laws , by which those ( that renounce their disloyal Principles ) will be distinguisht , and the disloyal and seditious only kept weak . REPLY XXXVI . I have sufficiently treated the Irish Rebellion in the first Reply ; neither have I bin wanting to shew you , that a Protestāt Author , viz. a Heath , lays the cause of it on the English Long-Parliament , which occasioned so many mischeifes , & by their wicked beginings against that good Prince encouraged the designes of the rest of his seditious subjects : Nor had the Scots themselves bin then wanting ( by their actuall levying warr against their King , & corresponding with his forrain Enemies ) to prick forward ( seeing they were successefull ) all those who studied commotions & disorders . Judge then whither they were the Papists of England , or the Reformed in both Kingdomes of Great Brittain that farthered the Irish Rebellion . But now that the Irish never treated Protestants better then the yeare before they curt theire throats , is a foolish invention of this shamelesse Minister , & nonsense in it selfe ; Nor was it practicable , unlesse the English had ( like the Israelites in Egypt ) bin sojournours at will , & had nothing to doe with the Government . For would it not be a mad expression to say that the Hugonots of France better treated this yeare the Papists there , then they had done before ; or that the Round-heads treated the Cavaliers more kindly then they had done since the Kings Restauration . But this is un Coup d'esprit , a peice of witt of the Worthy Minister , & truely so great a one that I admire it , & should doe it much more , were it not soe common . SECT . XXXVII . APOLOGY . Why may not we , Noble Country-men , hope for favour from you , as well as the French Protestants find from theirs ? A greater duty then ours none could express , we are sure . Or why should the United Provinces , and other Magistrates ( that are harsh both in mind and manners ) refrain from violence against our Religion , and your tender breasts seem not to harbour the least compassion or pity ? These neighboring people sequester none for their Faith , but for transgression against the State ; Nor is the whole party involved in the crime of a few , but every man suffers for his own and proper fault . Do you then the like , and he that offends let him die without mercy . And think always ( we beseech you ) of Cromwels injustice , who for the actions of some against his pretended Laws , drew thousands into Decimation ( even ignorant of the thing ) after they had vastlie paid for their securitie and quiet . ANSWER XXXVII . He says , he has answered our instances of French Protestants , and Dutch Papists . When we governed the civilized World , he says , we hanged and burnt men for no cause but Faith ; which proves Protestant Barbarity , better then Popish civility : yet these were little for their credit , unless they could say , that none of us suffered but by the known and necessary Laws of the Kingdom . 'T is necessary to maintain the Kings Authority , and Peace of the Nation ; and if we call Religion any thing contrary to these , whether ought they to alter their Laws , or we our Religion ? He says , as Inquisitors bedress one with Pictures of Devils , that is to be burnt for an Heretick , so I put Cromwel on any thing I would render odious , but they are weak , that see not the difference betwen Cromwels Edicts , that ruined men for Loyalty , and Laws that restrained them from Treason and Rebellion . REPLY . XXXVII . How childishly rediculous is this Ministers Allegation , That none of us suffered but by known Laws ? What does he mean ? Did we ever ( when we governed England ) put any to death but by the known Laws established many hundred years before the Malefactors were born , and which are still on foot , and used to this day by Protestants against Hereticks ? But fully to reply to this Answer , I cannot better do it , then by beseeching you to read over this short Section of the Apology again , and then tell me , whether any request can be more reasonable and Christian ; or whether this way of involving the whole in the crimes of a few , be not exactly the Procedure of Cromwel . SECT . XXXVIII . APOLOGY . We have no studie but the Glory of our Soveraingn , and just libertie of the Subjects . ANSWER XXXVIII . Sir , If we may judge by your works , there is nothing less studied in your Colledge . SECT . XXXVIIII . APOLOGY . Nor was it a mean argument of our dutie , when every Catholique Lord gave his voice for the Restauration of Bishops ; by which we could pretend no other advantage , but that 26. Votes ( subsisting wholly by the Crown ) were added to the defence of Kingship , and consequently a check to Anarchy and confusion . ANSWER XXXVIIII . This is no argument of your Duty , for sure you are it no Lord. Nor is it likely , that these Lords followed your direction in the doing of this Duty . REPLY to ANS . XXXIX . Good Mr. Parson , 't is more then you know but that I am a Lord ; yet whether I am or no , the Catholick Lords and I are of the same Loyal Principles , and what they did , any other Catholick would have done had he been Member of their House . SECT . XL. APOLOGY . 'T is morally impossible but that we who approve of Monarchy in the Church , must ever be fond of it in the State also . ANSWER XL. If you mean this of Papists in general , that which you mean morally impossible , is experimentally true . For in Venice , Genoa , Lucca , and other Popish Cantons of Switzerland , they very well approve of Monarchy in the Church , yet they are not fond of it in State also . But if you mean this of the Jesuitical Party , then it may be true , in this sence , that you would have the Pope to be sole Monarch , both in Spirituals and Temporals . REP. to ANSW . XL. I think I have been as lately at Lucca , Genoa , and Venice , and know the places as well as the Minister . 'T was not therefore my meaning , that there were no Popish States , but that generally Popery tends to Monarchy ; and on the contraty , Calvinism ( from which the Church of England differs only in Bishops ) leans altogether to a Democratical Government . Heretofore ( in the Civil Wars of our Country ) there was never the least mention of a Commonwealth ; but still the Rebels would have a King , and rather then fail , one of another Kingdom . I beseech God , that the present Principles have no other tendency but to Monarchy ; for , Reader , you must know that Principles may blindly lead men to a thing , which not only their judgments , but their inclinations loath : as for example , the Reformed both in judgment and inclination desire unitie ; but their Principles in spite of all endeavours will draw them ( as we see by a hundred years experience ) into perpetual confusion and discord . SECT . XXXXI . APOLOGY . Yet this is a mis fortune we now plainly feel , that the longer the late transgressors live , the more forgotten are their crimes whilst distance in time calls the faults of our Fathers to remembrance , and buries our own allegeance in eternal Oblivion and forgetfulness . ANSWER XXXXI . We can now allow you to complain , and commend your selves without measure ; having proved already , that you do it without cause . SECT . XXXXII. APOLOGY . My Lords and Gentlemen , Consider we beseech you , the sad condition of the Irish Souldiers now in England , the worst of which Nation could be but intentionallie so wicked , as the acted villanie of many English , whom your admired Clemencie pardoned . Remember how they left the Spanish service when they heard their King was in France ; and kow they forsook the emploiment of that unnatural Prince , after he had committed that never to be forgotten act of banishing his distressed Kinsman out of his Dominions . These poor men left all again to bring their Monarch to his home , and shall they then be forgotten by You ? Or shall my Lord Douglas and his brave Scots be left to their shifts , who scorn'd to receive Wages of those that have declared War against England ? ANSWER XXXXII. He says , That to swell our Bill of Merits , I take in the Irish and Scotish Souldiers , as if they were a part of English Catholicks , and as if I were the first that thought of them . God forbid , he says , they should not be considered ; and he is neither good Christian , no , nor good Subject , that would not contribute his proportion to it . But , he says , I have a drift in mentioning the Irish , for I mingle them with the worst of that Nation , namely , with those infamous Butchers , that cut the throats of at least an hundred thousand Protestants . It was so black an action , that I knew not how to mention it , in its proper place , viz. after the French massacre , because I had not wherewith to colour it ; but being still conscious it was a blot on our cause , I thought fit to place it here , that these brave men might mend the hue of the action . He says further , I deal as ill with the English Royallists , by affirming they pardoned many English , whose acted villanies were so wicked , that the worst of the Irish could be but intentionally so wicked . REPLY to ANSW . XXXXII. Pray , Reader , consider the wicked folly of this man , for here he denies us a part in the good actions of the Irish ; and yet all along he has laid their ill actions at our door ; nay , in this very Paragraph he twits us with it , when he says , I was conscious it was a blot on our cause : but I will pass by this as usual , and go on . Truly , Reader , the case of the Irish in Arms , toucht me as neer as my own concerns ; and pray see the strange Hypocrisie also of this Minister , that says God forbid these poor Souldiers should not be considered , and that he is neither good Christian , nor Subject , that would not contribute to it ; and yet in the same exhortation , endeavours all he can to have the Laws executed , which must needs force these forlorn men either to beg or steal . By this we may find what his contribution is , and therefore God deliver all honest men from such a merciless creature : and was ever man so abominable ( knowing many of the Kings Judges were pardoned ) to reproach my assertion , that the worst of this Nation be but intentionally so wicked as the acted villany of many English , whom the clemencie of the Parliament pardoned ? Is not this in plain terms , to say , that the business of Ireland was greater then the Rebellion of England , and horrid Murther of our Gratious King , which has drawn an eternal disgrace upon the whole Nation in general ? If this man , who uses the word US at every turn , ( ranking himself thereby among the Royallists ) be a Royallist , then I 'll hereafter say , that Bradshaw was one also . SECT . XXXXIII . APOLOGY . How commonly is it said , That the Oath of renouncing their Religion is intended for these ? which will needs bring this loss to the King , and you , that either you will force all of our Faith to lay down their Arms ( though by experience , of great integrity and worth ) or else , if some few you retain , they are such whom Necessity has made to swear against Conscience , and therefore will certainly betray you , when a greater advantage shall be offered . By this test then , you can have none but whom with caution you ought to shun , and thus must you drive away those that truly would serve you ; for had they the least thought of being false , they would gladly take the advantage of gain and pay , to deceive you . ANSWER XLIII . He asks me , who are said to intend this Oath , if it be those that have no Authority , 't is frivolous ; if such as have Authority , 't is false ; and he farther says , that he verily believes , 't was never said , thought , nor wisht by any one that loved either the King or Peace of the Nation . REP. to ANS . XLIII . The Minister is here just as he uses to be ; for many were upon this account disbanded before he put out his Answer ; and since , all the rest of the Catholiques have been cashiered , as 't was expected by every body when he writ . SECT . XLIV . APOLOGY . We know your wisdom and generosity , and therefore cannot imagine such a thing . Nor do we doubt when you shew favour to these , but you will use mercy to us , who are both fellow-Subjects , and your own flesh and blood also . If you forsake us , we must say , the world decays , and its final transmutation must needs quickly follow . ANSWER XLIV . Here you imagine for the Souldiers and imagine for your self : and as if you really thought your self in danger , you begg for mercy of the Royallists , in such words as your Predecessor the first Moderator used to the Rebels . Only for the last strain , we do not know that any one hit upon it before ; nor do believe , that any one will ever use it again . SECT . XLV . APOLOGY . Little do you think the insolencies we shall suffer by Committee-men , &c. whom chance and lot has put into petty power . Nor will it chuse but grieve you , to see them abused ( whom formerly you loved ) even by the Common Enemy of us both . ANSWER XLV . It seems Committee-men are intrusted with his Majesties Authority ; or none must use it against Papists , for fear of being accounted Committee-men . It is time to have done , when we are come to the dregs of your Rhetorick . SECT . XLVI . APOLOGY . When they punish , how will they triumph and say , Take this ( poor Romanists ) for your love to Kingship ; and again this , For your long doating on the Royal Party ; all which you shall receive from us , Commissioned by your dearest friends , and under this Cloak we will glady vent our private spleen and malice . ANSWER XXXXVI . Sir , though you set your self to speak Tragically , this does rather seem a piece of Drollery . But you have your design either way ; for no man can read it , but he must either laugh , or shake his Head. SECT . XXXXVII . APOLOGY . We know , My Lords and Gentlemen , that from your hearts you do deplore our condition ; yet permit us to tell you , your bravery must extend thus far , as not to sit still with pity only , but each is to labour for the distressed , as far as in reality his ability will reach : some must beseech our Gracious Soveraign for us , others must again undeceive the Good , though deluded Multitude . Therefore all are to remember who are the prime raisers of the Storm , and how through our sides they would wound both the KING and You ; for though their hatred to our selves is great , yet the enmity out of all measure encreases , because we have been yours ( and so shall continue ) even in the fiery day of trial . Protect us we entreat you then upon all your former Promises ; or if that be not sufficient , for the sakes of those that lost their Estates with you ; many of which are now fallen asleep . But if this be still to weak , we must conjure you by the sight of this Bloody Catalogue , which contains the Names of your murthered Friends and Relations , who in the heat of Battail , perchance saved many of your Lives , even with the joyful loss of their own . ANSWER XLVII . In answer to this last , he has nothing to say , but that the Rebels harrassed the Papists , to make the King odious , and enrich themselves . That we were necessitated to what we did either for Subsistance or Protection , but the Protestants had no such necessity . Concerning the Estates we lost ; the sum of his answer is , That after the Rebels had devoured ours , they fell upon the Protestants with more colour , and nevertheless appetite . REPLY to ANSW . XLVII . For our necessity ( other then our Duty ) to engage for his Maiestie , I have answered it at large in the Preface . For the loss of our Estates , I say here is an excelent encouragement for Subjects , according to this mans Doctrine . But I see by the whole manner of his writing , that he is some inconsiderable man , whose name would be as little known if prefixt , as it is now being concealed ; and therefore there is no wonder if what he writ be inconsiderable also . Concerning the Catalogue of those brave Catholicks that laid their lives down for their King , the Minister saith thus . ANSWER XLVIII . That he can reckon a far greater number of Protestants then I can pretend to do Papists . Secondly , that I have omitted many in my List , which he could name ; but this he thinks was out of design , that I might more excusably reckon some names , which I ought to have omitted , viz. My Lord of Carnarvan , who he says in his extremities refused a Priest , and ordered the Chaplain of his Regiment to pray with him . REPLY to ANSW . XLVIII . For my Lord Carnarvan , Reader , you must know , he was a Ward taken by my Lord Pembroke from his Catholique Mother , and then married to his Daughter . In the Army my Lord never marched without a Priest ; whē he was wounded to death , he sent for his Brother in law the Lord Herbert , late M. of Worster , and desired him to go tell the King , That he could do no more then die in his Quarrel ; and if he would grant him but this request , he would think his Majesty sufficiently recompenced him for his life . His petition was , That his Mother might have the breeding up of his Son ; and the end of this he said was , That the Child might be educated in the Catholick Religion . After this he received all the rites of the Roman Church , and died in the arms of a Priest now alive , that belonged to many of my Lords Relations . Concerning my Catalogue in general , you must know , Reader , I have been often chid at London for omitting so many considerable Catholicks ; but this I could not help , for the Catalogue was collected by Mr. Blunt ( as I take it ) who is to be much commended for his pains . When I printed the Apology , I was in such hast that I had not time to examine it nicely among my friends : I am now , Reader , also a great way from London , and therefore am forc'd to print it again without amendmēts ; all that I can do at present is , to desire a leaf or two of white paper be added , in which we may write down ( as we shall from time to time be informed ) the names of those Heroick men , that died in defence of their King and Country . I wonder very much that this Minister is not ashamed to urge such a foolish thing , viz. That more Protestants dyed in this War then of our Religion . This no body doubts of , and may well be , seeing we are not the hundredth part of the Nation , and yet by my imperfect List it appears , that there were killed 190. Catholiques of Quality ; when as ( by the List called the Royal-Martyr , and printed by Thomas Newcomb 1660. ) there died in the War but 212. Protestants , the rest there named being Papists , as you may see , if you compare their names with my Catologue . Let the Word then judge , whether we ought not to have some compassion shewed us , and not to be thus calumniated by every impertinent Scribler . Reader , those that follow are the Ministers exhortations , which are so like the Pedantry of his pulpit , that they alone without the rest would have assured me of the Authors calling . That you may see what they are , I have divided them into eight several Advices or Desires , for so he is pleased to call them . First Sect. He desires us to be content with our condition , and not under value the Liberty we now enjoy , if it exceed what was granted our Fathers . To this I say , Reader , that we are contented with any favour ; yet 't would be no arrogance if we require more them our Fathers had , because it seems the Minister counts them all Traytors , when as we ( as all the World knows ) have shewn the utmost duty that Subjects can do . Second Sect. Not to proclaim about the World for the paring of our nayls that we are persecuted . To this I will give a larger Answer in the Postscript ; and will only say here , that I defie any man , to shew me in Christendome a Party that bears their misfortunes with more submission then we . Third Sect. To abhor them that wish disturbances or Invasions to settle Popery . To this I say , I think that nothing can make it more manifest that we do abhor such men , then to see that all catholicks detested the French , evē then when we were forsakē by our friends , and they ( as most thought ) upō the point of landing . Fourth Sect. To keep our Religiō to our selves , and not expect such harvests as we had in the late confusions . I say , Truly we are like to keep it to our selves , for 't is too severe to be embraced by Worldlings : and if care be not taken , the same times will come again ; for I am sure , crying against Papists was then the former Prologue ; and though the aim of wicked people be still the same , I hope the Epilogue will be far different . Fifth Sect. Not to abuse the weakness of dying persons , nor convert the condemned Prisoners with drink , or by hopes of an easier way of salvation . To this I answer , The Minister ought not to call the condition of dying persons weak , because he and his brethren have always found them strong ; for I think no man ever heard that a Catholick was converted by them at his death ; and all have been able to resist that in their Agony , to which worldly ends made some in their healths yeild . But now , if Catholicks have reconciled dying persons , it must be wholly attributed to the truth of their Doctrine , for then all hopes of life being taken away , men will hearken to that reason , which during health ( through temporal advantages ) they earnestly opposed : Nay , few of these , if they recover , start back , but on the contrary persevere . I say , these Conversions must needs proceed from the conviction of the Truth , and not from hopes of any easier way of salvation , because the Protestant way is far easier , and naturally more sutable to the inclinatiōs of dying men ; For an ordinary trust in the merits of Christ , and an ordinary contrition ( usual to all people that are said not to die ill ) will , according to the Reformed Hypothesis , carry a man presently to Heaven : when as this , in the opinion of any Catholicks , and of the Agonising party himself , will bring him at farthest but to Purgatory . The entrance into Heaven is not so easie a passage with us ; for it must be obtained with long Mortifications , conflicts , and labours , far greater then those of Hercules ; or else in men of ill lives , by some unexpressible energy at the last gasp , like that of the Thief on the Cross . Vain therefore is the imagination of Protestants , for we have no other means to convert men , but , as I said , the force of truth on their Consciences , which truth in that state they can discern ( as men fallen into miserie , do oftentimes the vanities of the World ) when as in strength of body ( through humane designs ) like the adder , they stop their ears , let the Charmer charm never so sweetly . Many advantages more ( were it not time ho have done with the Minister ) could I shew , that the Protestants have naturally over Catholicks , in converting of dying people , but they never converted one ( as I heard of ) yet he confesses many have been by us . Besides this , I beseech you , Reader , to look upon the lives of those that leave the Protestant Religion to come to us , and then shew me any one of them , that lives worse then he did before . Some perchance there b● ( and those almost as rare as black swans themselves ) that mend not the depravity of their first manners , though none , as I said , fall to worse : but for the rest , they apparently cast off the old man , and shew the wonderful fruits of Grace by their holy life and conversation . On the other side , good Protestant Reader , name me that man amongst you , who left the Catholique Church , and fell not immediately into all licentiousness and vice ; call but to mind Gage , Cary , Rookwood , Carpenter , Macedo the late converted Portugeze , or any other whom you please , and see , if they had one unclean spirit in them when they were Papists , whether seven Divels , each worse then the former , afterward entered not into them . Truly , this is no wonder , because they , forsook their Religion for liberty , and followed the pattern of Luther their first Master and Teacher . For , he while he was a Monk punisht his body with watching and fasting , as a S. Voyon a Protestant cōfesses . But afterwards he lived otherwise , as another b Protestant affirms : for he says , That when Protestants would indulge their appetite , they would not be ashamed to use these words ; Let us live Luther - like to day . Sixth Sect. Not to hinder the course of Justice on Criminals because they are Papists . To this I say , I understand not what he means ; but if any Papist has sollicited for another of his Religion which was to die , I think 't is not unlawful : No man of any Religion being denied to use their endeavours to save their Friends and Relations , that fall by chance into these misfortunes . But herein we shall obey his advice , for ( unless it be by some unphappy duells ) the Catholicks come seldome within the the reach of Criminal Laws . Seventh Sect. That Priests disguize not themselves like Hectors , and poyson Clubs and Coffee houses with Phanatick discourses . To this I answer , that if Phanaticism be the discourse of a Priest , I doubt this Minister is one also ; for never did Jacob Behmen , Stifler , or any of the Fraternity write more malitious , self contradicting things then he ; or that have in them more inferences of confusion and disorder . In the next place , if Priests disguize themselves , I think 't is not their faults ; and if the Minister will get them liberty to wear their habit , I will be bound they shall never go more in Mascarade . Besides , being thus known by every body , we then shall plainly see , who they be that at Taverns and Meeting-places corrupt the Youth . And truly , Reader , I am very morally certain , that this Answerer is a haunter of them , for the old Proverb tells us who calls Whore first . Eighth Sect. That Priests and Iesuites fill not the World with Pamphlets , Philanaxes , Exhortations , Apologies , &c. which ser●● ( ●e says ) only to fermēt mens passiōs , and not to convince their Reasons . If we come into the fair field of Controversie , we shal not be declined ; and the Minister thinks his party not indebted to us upon that account . Good Mr. Parson , you very well know that the Philanaxes , Exhortations , Apologies , &c. were writ by Lay-m●n , and therefore you might have spared this last advice , since 't was as needless as the rest of your false and malitious writing . And by the way remember how you have perverted and falsely commented on a Loyal mans learned work , this very Exhortation which you mention . His words , Reader , are these : As for the Roman Pastors indirect power over Kings in ordine ad Spiritualia , by which the Sea Apostolical in some rare Cases hath ( at the request of all Christians ) proceeded to censure , and deprive Kings ( a thing so much talkt of , and so little understood by the Reformed Divines ) I leave that Question to be decided by the two Supream Powers when occasion shall be for it ' which may not happen to the end of the World : It being a very rare Case , in which it were not better that such matters were wholly left till the day of Judgment . Now the sum of this is , as the Minister says , that if the Pope should deprive our King , this Catholick would not meddle between them . When as his true meaning was , That this case between Popes and Kings will happē seldome , if ever ; and should it happen , he will not as to the right ( or , via juris ) determine the nice pretensions of each party ; yet this does not argue , but that he would side , as to action ( or , via facti ) with his Prince against any person whatsoever . And thus we daily see the French do , who swear they cannot tell whether the Law called Salique be forged ; or whether in Justice the now Male-Line , or the English ( because descended from the Heirs general ) ought to have the Kingdom ; but still they declare , they will fight for their present Monarch against all Mankind . This , I say , is the sense of the Author of the Exhortation , and this I dare ingage he shall subscribe to . Now concerning Philanax , how poorly it is answered , I believe the Minister would be ashamed to confess : and yet ( how poorly soever ) he has made use of it ; Nay of the most contemptible and groundless follies in the whole Book . I am sure , the man needed not to have challenged us into the fair field of Controversie , having there-in been more then Combatants , ever since the breaking out of Luther . Nor can there be any Argument of more generous bravery then this , That though our Priests in England have been hunted from hole to hole , their Papers often seized , some in the midst of their works hanged , no Library , no Press , and if to day well settled , perchance forc'd on the morrow to flie ; yet for all these disavantages ( which no Protestant feels ) they never omitted to write things of use , or to answer all sorts of Books , that durst appear against our Religion or manners . Fear not therefore , good Minister , that either Clergy or Laity will be behindhand with you in this affair ; and I think Dr. Pierce will tell you he found it to some purpose from both Nor shall you , Sir , whilst I live ( be ready again , as soon as you please ) want an humble Servant to shew you your many willful errors and mistakes . THE POSTSCRIPT . My Lords and Gentlemen : YOu have now had a short view of the malice of the Answerer , and of our condition ; nor have I troubled you with points of Divinity , it being out of my Road , and more particulary belonging to them , who are called to be Guides , and make it their Profession to studie Controversie . The search into History and Annals of Nations is the fit employement of men of Quality ; for by it ( having a view of all that is past ) we presently find what profits your Country , and how good men ( by false representations ) may pass for abominable , even in the thoughts of sober people . In this sort who have ever suffered more then we ? for often the best of our fellow-Subjects ( having drawn in with their first milk , an ill opinion of our manners ) have continued in the same sentiment , till by long experience they plainly found the contrary . How opposite is Popery noised to the Grandeur of Kings ! and yet we see , That a Kings were never greater than then . What exclamations are there to this day against us for our stirs in the beginning of Reformation ! though it is evident it proceeded not from precepts of Faith , but from a natural b impulse to oppose Novelties . Nay , the efforts of our Ancestors for the Royal c House of Scotland are laid to our charge as High-Treason ; but the putting up of d Iane Gray for the Protestāt Interest was justice , even by the preaching of Dr. Ridley . And moreover , though but thirteen Papists were drawn into the e powder Treason , by the dexterity of our Enemies , yet we all ( even the Children of many of the great Catholiques that were to have been destroyed by the Traytors ) are still held guilty of this Original sin . After our proneness to Rebellion ( in which how little we are faulty , and how f much others have been , let the World judge ) there 's no Principle possesses the imagination of Englishmen so fully , as that we delight in Blood , and that persecuting of men is a part of our Doctrine . What cries therefore have been against they days of Queen Mary , as if her cruelty were unparallell'd ! when as I have made it appear , that more Catholiques have died by a Protestants , then of them by us ; and that since the exclusion of the Pope , there has been a greater quantity of Blood iudicially spilt amongst us , then from the Conversion of England to the Reign of Henry the Eighth . The Massacre of France is prov'd ( you see ) to have beē no b effect of Religiō , but an indirect endeavour to suppress Rebelliō . Nor are we in England ( abominating the fact ) more guilty of the Irish Cruelties , then is the Protestant Faith for what was done at Amboyna . For my own part , I not only detest Blood , but find all Catholicks do ; for if in many Countries ( where the Prince and people , as I shewed you before , are Catholicks ) the Protestants have not only open Churches , but also publick employments , and in no place this is granted by the Reformed to Papists ; then must it needs follow , that we are much kinder to you , then you to us , even in the matters of Religion . Besides this , Catholicks are so tender , that the Inquisition it self is permitted in no Kingdom where Heresie is numerous : nor ought we to be blamed , if ( in a Country wholly obedient to the Church ) we strive to keep out all other Sects and opinions . This cannot be jniustice , because to all Mankind we grant the same liberty . Who is it , that morally blames the Moors of Affrick ( being of one Profession ) for keeping out even the Gospel it self ? Or who is it , that says the Swedes ar inhumane , because none except L●therans shall live among them ? God alone is to judge hereafter of mens neglecting means . In England therefore , where all fell not from Popery , there is not the same just motive for punishment ; and certainly it is severity in the highest degree , to prosecute us with fire and sword , as if we were an upstart people , that brought in a strange Religion , not finding it here before . Ethelbert the first English King that profest Christianity ( and converted also by a Monk ) never persecuted his Pagan Subjects , because their Religion was in possession : and yet no consideration is thought fit for Papists , though our most fundamental Laws have establisht this Faith ; and the maintenance of it sworn unto ( since the Conquest ) by at least twenty of our Monarchs . Catholicks consider Sectaries , as Magistrates do Rebels : for where they are but very few , they may perchāce all suffer according to the establishtt Laws of a Natiō , but if they grow numerous , pity causes us now to punish nobody with death , but thē prayers , thē preaching , then Books &c. are the fittest Arms to destroy thē . This makes us severe in Spain and Italy , and this merciful in Frāce , Germany , &c. yet here in our Country , there are Sanguinarie Laws against Lay-men , and our Priests have been handled with more seuerity then Iames Naylor , or any of his Disciples . What advātage will Persecutiō bring , but to make us glory that we suffer for Christ ? nor has it ever yet lessned our nomber . No good therefore , I am sure , can come to Protestants by it much harm perchance may ; since it will stir up Catholique Governours to use the like severity to dissenting Subjects , who otherwise might live in greater tranquillity and ease . 'T is not we that proclaim our persecution ( as this Minister taxes us ) in forreign parts , but the Agents of Princes , who comment as they please on things , and fill Europe with noise , that the English of all people are most ungrateful , being earnest to have that done against their tried friends , which Cromwel was almost ashamed to do , though we were his profes't and sworn Enemies . I shall never omit to render my thanks to Almighty God , that I know not one who staggers the least in duty for all this our reproach and suffering : Who is it that now loves the Dutch one whit the more ? or who is it that contemns not a Frenchman whilst he is an Enemy to England ? Nor did ever any Party in this Isle ( That deemed it self opprest by Laws ) before fail of favouring those , that were in hostility with the Kingdom . The Presbyterians in Scotland were up actually in a Arms when two the powerfullest Nations of Europe , assisted also with Denmark made the last War upon us . And for the Independants , all who were in pay in Holland , openly abjured their Countrey , and many of them headed by Doleman , did us the mischief at Chattam : for forreign Nations must never hope to foil the English , without the additional courage of English. Just contrary to this has been the procedure of Catholicks ; for not only the Scotish Papists with their Commander my Lord Douglas left France upon the breach , but valiantly also fought with the loss of many of their lives , when those Traytors ( as I said at Chattham ) assisted the Dutch last summer . I need not repeat how zealous the Popish Guards were in all these three years Wars , every body being an eye-witness of it ; and for the Papists abroad , I am sure they have been so earnest for the Honor of the Nation , that at Paris , Flandres , Rome , Liege , &c. they were still detecting the Dutch forgeries , and proclaiming our Victories to all People . Nay the Hollāders were ever so sensible of the fervour of the English Catholicks in behalf of their Country , that when De Wit was solliciting for a Guard , he caused it to be published in the Gazzets of Amsterdam , that he was in danger of his life , for that two of our Jesuits had undertaken to kill him . Consider therefore ( Loyal Sirs ) our services : and though in themselves they are but Duties , yet Duties may sometimes merit a reward , at least for the inciting of others . Nothing assuredly can ever settle more our Country in peace , then the free liberty of Religion : and if the tenderness of the Kings heart ( as all the world knows him merciful ) should move him to hear the cry of his late Enemies , and grant them the enjoyment of their Consciences ; certainly no body could think it strāge , if he gave the same freedom to us his friends , who never yet deserted him or his Father in their greatest misfortunes and sufferings . Nay , moreover , if there be still pity left amongst mankind , upon that score also ( had Papists no other Plea ) we might more justly pretend to Indulgence then any Nonconformist whatsoever For none of the Sects can in reality alledge more , then that the Protestant manner of worship is nauseous , and of no edification to them : my Reason is , because we see ●t least the Rich in all Countries go often to Church , and yet are owned still members by the Party . Now such a Conformity is diametrically opposite to the Conscience of a Catholick , and any such Communion is a deadly sin . We are not here to Dispute , whether Papists are not too scrupulous : for this Argument may be used against any one of a contrary Judgmēt . But supposing such and such things are the points of a Religion , and favour desired in the suspension of Laws ; I say , Mercy is fitter for them , that according to the profession of their Faith , cannot comply without sinning , then for those that do it without such offence : and truly , I am not so disingenious as to believe , that were this Conformity in their own Opinion a sin , that so many persons of all Orders amongst the Presbiterians and Independents would have gone to Church , or that their respective Congregations would have still received them as theirs . This favour I crave , I wish for all people as well as for my self : for I cannot be so partial as to think my Conscience ought not to be forced , and yet that my Neighbour may dispence with the scruples he finds in his . Punishment never lessens the Resolutiōs of Christiās , but always heightens Zeal , and draws sometimes wellmeaning men into those Leagued Factions , which ease and favour would assuredly have prevented . What thoughts can men have when they find not themselves opprest , but the publick interest of their Country ? It follows not also , that Toleration prejudices the establisht Religion of a Nation ; for experimentally we see , the Calvinists of France never had fewer Proselytes then when they were securest from Massacres , and the like . Whilst the House of Valois was in being , which used the great rigour they speake of , their History declares how numerous they grew ; but since those of Burbon were Kings , who toucht neither Life nor Estate ( only took away Garisons , the Nests of Rebellion ) I never found they much vaunted in theire Conversions and increase . My Lords and Gentlemen , Religion is God Almightie's own Cause , and ( for manifestation of the Elect ) Heresies are permitted . 'T is he only ( and that at the last day also ) that shall satisfactorily convince us all , who is in the right : Persecution therefore may easily disioint a Kingdom , but can never destroy this Hydra when she is fully rouz'd . But now afore I end , I must here declare , if any other ill men ( such as this Minister and his Momentous friend who writ the Discourse of the Religion of England ) hope by Persecution of Papists , to make us the less passionate for the Government when their Plots are ripe , they cozen themselves , and reckon without their Host : for the Travellers-Cloak ( which is our tried Allegeance to lawful Power ) can never be blown up by a Wind. And if Papists were so fleeting , as for affliction to renounce a duty , which they hold be the Command of God ; why should they , do you think , suffer for Conscience , since by going to Church , or taking Oaths , they may , when they please , enjoy the ample Priviledges of their Birthright ? Take this therefore for a certain Maxime , That be who is faithful to God , can never be unfaithful to his Country : and I am sure in all kinds of disorders about Religiō here at home , the Reformed in each of their respective Sects have been far more faulty then we ; if we consider ( as I said ) what was done against Queē Mary , the usage of the Queē of scots , or the late unparallel'd Rebelliō : neither for these many years have the Papists been struck at , but that the Bishops and Church of Englād felt also the blow : and how much Episcopacy is advātageous to Monarchy , none can be now ignorant . Who therefore , My Lords and Gentlemen , will be so little pitied as you , if you should be twice deceived after the same method and māner ? But to conclude , no Kingdom ( I dare say ) looses-so much as ours by their cry against Catholicks : for 't is very certainly true , were not this a Bar ( and he who doubts it , will soon be convinc'd , let him step but beyond Sea ) that the Spanish Provinces in the Netherlāds ( and for a small matter with their Kings consent , as his case lately stood ) would joyfully put themselves under the gentle yoak of our easie Government : nor are they in Normandy shie to say , that had not Papists been so harrassed with us , they would not have slipt so many late oportunities of returning to their Lawful Duke and Soveraign . FINIS . REader , I hope this Impressiō will be better thē the last , which was very falsely printed ; For the Printer not only Italicated where he should not , and omitted it where he should , but also left out some words , and changed others , as if there had been a private correspondency , betweene my Adversary and him ; for soe , I le assure yow , I am informed . The only alteration , I make , is putting the Citations out of the Margent into the body of the treatise , for I found that it distracted , or at least much interupted the Reader in often running from one place to another , especially if what I quoted were long . I have also added to the list more Catholiques of quality , that lost their lives for the King. The names I receiv'd from some Ladyes of their Relations , who are now become Religious at Paris . I have plac't them by themselves after all , to put the Readers in mind , that they forgett not to insert also those whom hereafter they shall have notice of ; and had I time to send to friends , I doubt not but the increase would be considerable . A CATOLOGUE OF THOSE CATHOLICKS THAT DIED AND SVFFERED FOR THEIRE LOYALTY . THe Earl of Carnarvan , slain at Newbury first Battle . Lord Viscount Dunbar at Scarborough , and two of his sons much wounded . Knights . Sir John Smith , Banneret ( who rescued the Kings Standard from the Rebels at Edg●il ) slain at Alresford in Hampshire . Sir John Cansfield , wounded at Neubury , of which he died a lingring death . Sir Hen. Gage ( Governour of Oxford ) slain at Collumbridge , 11. Jan. 1644. Sir J. Digby wounded at Taunton , and died at Bridgewater . Sir P. Brown wounded at Naseby , died at Nortbampton . Sir Nich. Fortescue , Knight of Malta , slain in Lancashire . Sir Troylus Turbervil , Captain-Lieut . of the Kings Life-Guard , slain upon his Majesties marching from Newark to Oxford . Sir J. Preston , wounded at Furnace , of which he died a lingring death . Sir Arthur Aston ( Gouvernour of Red●ling ) slain at Tredaugh in cold blood . Sir Thomas Tildesly , slain at Wiggan . Sir Hēry Slingsby beheaded on Towerhill . Colonels . Col. Th. Howard ( son of the Lord William Howard ) slain at Peirsbridge . Col. Tho. Howard ( son of Sir Francis ) at Atherton-Moor : The gaining which Battle was principally ascrib'd to his Valour . Col. Tho. Morgan of Weston in Warwicksh . slain at Newb. first battle : he raised a Regiment of Horse for the King at his own charge , and his Estate was given to Mr. Pyms son . Col. Cuthbert Conniers , at Malpass . Col. Tho. Dalton of Thurnham , mortally wounded at Newbury second battle , and died at Marlborough . Col. Francis Hungate , slain at Chester . Col. Poor ( Governour of Berkley-Castle ) neer Lidney . Col. Will. Ewre ( son to the late Lord Ewre ) at Marston-Moor . Col. Ra. Pudsey , at Marston-Moor . Col. Cuthert Clifton , slain at Manchester . Col. Cassey Bental , at Stow in the Wolds . Col. Trollop , slain at Wiggan . Col. William Bains at Malpass . Col. William Walton , at Tredagh . Col. Rich. Manning , at Alresford . Lieut. Colonels . Lieut. Col. Thomas Markham of Allerton , slain neer Gainsborough . L. Col. Lancelot Holtby , at Branceford . L. Col. Haggerston at Preston . L. Col. Pavier , at Linc. L. Col. Jordan Metham , at Pontefract . L. Col John Godfrey . at Tewksbury . L. Col. George Preston , at Bradford . L. Col. Will. Houghton , at Newbury . Lieut. Col. Phil. Howard , slain at Chester . L. Col. Middleton , at Hopton-Heath . L. Col. Michael Constable , there also . L. Col. Sayr , at Nasby . L. Col. Scot , at Alresford ▪ L. Col. Thomas Salvin , at Alresford L. Col. Richard Brown , at Alresford L. Col. Goodridge wounded at Alresford and died at Oxford . L. Col. Congrave , slain at Dean in Gloucest . Serjeant-Majors . Major Cusand , slain at the taking of Basing in cold blood . Major Rich. Harborn wounded at Malpass , dy'd at Kendal . Major T. Vavasor , slain at Marston-Moor . Maior Panton , wounded at Cover , dy'd at Highmeadow . Major Hudleston , slain at York . Maj. Thomas Ewre , at Newbury 1. Major Lawrence Clifton , at Shelfordhouse . Maior Thomas Heskith , at Malpass . Maj. William Leak , at Newbury 1. Maj. Rively , wounded at Naseby , dy'd prisoner at London . Maj. Richard Sherburn , at London . Maj. Holmby , at Henly . Major Rich. Norwood , slain before Taunton . Captains . Captain Marmaduke Constable , Standardb●●rer to L. Gen. Lindsey , slain at Edgehill . Capt. Wil. Laborn , and Cap. Mat. Anderton , at Sheriff-hutton in Yorkshire . Capt. Joseph Constable , at Newbury . Captain Wiburn , slain at Basing in oold blood . Capt. Burgh , slain at Cover . Capt. Thurston Anderton , wounded at Newbury , died at Oxford . Cap. Haggarston ( eldest son of Sir Thomas ) in Lancashire . Cap. Anthony Rigby , at Bazing-house . Capt. Richard Bradford , at Bazing-house . Capt. Kenelm Digby ( eldest son of Sir Kenelm Digby ) raised a Troop of Horse at his own charge , and was slain at St. Neotes . Capt. Ratcliff Houghton , at Preston . Capt. Rob. Molineux of the Wood in Lancashire , slain at Newbury 1. Capt. Charl. Thimelby , at Worcester . Capt. Robert Townsend , at Edge-hill . Captain Matthew Ratcliff , neer Henly . Capt. Richard Wolsole , at Newbury . Capt. Anthony Awd . Capt. Thomas Cole , at Newark . Capt. Partison , at Wiggan . Capt. Maximil . Nelson , at Marston-moor . Capt. Fran. Godfrey , slain at Sherburn . Capt. Tho. Meynel , at Pontefract . Capt. John Clifton , at Shelford-house . Capt Abraham Lance. Capt. Robert Lance , at Rowton in Chesh. Capt. Anth. Hamerton , neer Manchester . Capt. Will. Symcots , Capt. Lieut. to the Lord Piercy , slain at Newberry 1. Capt. Tho Singleton , at Newberry 1. Captain Francis Errington of Denton in Northumberland , at Rotheran . Captain George Singleton , at Rotheran . Capt. Mich. Fitzakerly at Liverpool . Capt. Daniel Thorold , at Nasby . Capt. Franc. Clifton , at Newberry 1. Capt. John Lance , at Islip . Capt. George Cassey , at Hereford . Capt. Langdale , at Greekhovel in Wales . Capt. Carver , in Monmouthshire . Capt. John Lingen , Ledbury . Capt. Samways , at Newberry 2. Captain John Plumton , slain at York . Capt. Pet. Forcer , at York . Capt. Thomas Whittinghā , at Newberry . Capt. Winkley , at Leverpool . Capt. Thomas Anderton , at Leverpool . Capt. Rich. Walmsly , at Ormschurch . Capt. John Swinglehurst , and Capt. John Butler , at Marston-moor . Capt. George Holden , at Usk. Capt. Richard Latham , at Litchfield . Capt. Tho. Charnock , at Litchfield . Capt. Rob. Dent , at Newcastle . Capt. Thomas Heskith , and Capt. John Knipe , at Bindle . Capt. Thomas Eccleston ▪ at Bindle . Capt. John Hothersal , Capt. Nic. Anderton , at Gre●noo-Cattle . Capt. Anthony Girlington , Lancaster . Capt. Francis Rou● , in Dean-Forrest . Capt. Randolph Wallinger , at Cover . Capt. Christoph . Wray , slain at Bradford . Capt. Wil. Rookwood , at Alresford . Capt. Rob. Rookwood , at Oxford . Capt. Hoskins , slain at Lidney in cold blood . Capt. Phil. Darey , at Lidney Capt. Wil. Jones , at Ragland . Capt. Henry Wells , wounded at Newberry 2. died in prison at London . Capt. Richardson , slain before Taunton . Captain Tho. Madden , slain in Woodstreet by the Fanaticks , Jan. 1660. Inferiour Officers . Lieut. Will. Butler , slain at Newberry . Lieut. Rich. Osbalston , at Leeds . Lieut. George Hothersal , at Leverpool . Lieutenant William Girlington , at Leverpool . Lieutenant John Kulcheth , at Worral . Lieut. William Singleton , at Marston . Lieut. Peter Boardman , at Bradford . Lieutenant Short , slain neer Glocester . Lieut. Rich. Bradford , at Blechington . Lieutenant James Bradford , at Blechington . Lieut. Tho. Kinsman at Lincoln . Lieutenant John Birch , at ●irmicham . Lieutenant Staley , at Rushall-Hall . Cornet William Culchereth , at Newberry . Cor. Deinton , at Cardiff . Cor. Robert Lance , in Cheshire . Cor. Edward Walker , at Burton . Cor. Miles Lochard , at Gooderidge . Gentlemen-Volontairs . Mr. Edward Talbot ( brother to the now Earl of Shrewsbury ) slain at Marston-moor . Mr. Char. Townly , and Mr. Charles Sherburn , there also . Mr. Nicolas Timelby , at Bristow . Mr. Pool of Worral , at Bristow . Mr. John Tipper , at Ne●●am . Mr. Christopher Blount , at Edg●alston . Mr. Theodore Mouse , at Langpo●● . Mr. Gerard Salvin , at Langpo●● . Mr. Francis Darcy , at Langpo●● . Mr. Wiburn . at Basing . Mr. Robert Bowles . at Basing . Mr. Wil. Stoner . at Basing . Mr. Price of Washingly in Northamptonsh . slain at Lincoln in cold blood . Mr. Cuthbert Ratcliff , slain at Newcastle . Mr. Thomas Latham , at Newarck . Mr. Andrew Giffard , at Hampton . Mr. ●ew is Blount , at Manchaster . Mr. Cary , ād M Gēnings , at Shelfordhouse . Mr. James Anderton , in Wales . Mr. Thomas Roper , at Gootheridge . Mr. Stephen Pudsey , in Hold●rness . Mr. Francis Pavier , at Marston . Mr. James Banton , at Cover . Tho. Pendrel , at Stow. Mr. Boniface Kemp , and Mr. ●●lde●ons Hesket , slain neer York in cold blood . Mr. Mich. Wharton , at Scarborough . Mr. Errington , at Chester . Tho. West by Doctor of Physick , at Prestō . Mr. Peter Davis , at D●nbigh . Mr. Edward Davis , at Chester . Mr. Bret , at Chester . Mr. Roger Wood , at Chester . Mr. Henry Lawson , at Melton . Mr. Tho. Craithorn the elder , at Uphaven . Mr. Henry Johnson , at Uphaven . Three so●● of Mr. Kitby of Rancliff . John Witham . at Preston Wil. S●lby . at Preston John 15. 13. Greater love then this no. man hath , then that one lay down his life for his friend . Major General Will. Web. so wounded at Newberry by Case-shot , that he lives a dying life . The Names of such Catholicks , whose Estates ( both Real and Personal ) were sold , in persuance of an Act made by the Rump , Iuly 16. 1651. for their pretended Delinquency : that is , for adhering to their King. IOh. Lord Marquess of Winchester , who so valiantly defended Basing-house . Henry Lord Marquess of Worcester , who has been at least 300000. l. looser by the War. Francis Lord Cottington . Lord John Sommerset . Marmaduke L. Langdale , and his son . Sir John Winter , who so stoutly defended Lidney-house Sir Thomas Tildesly himself slain , and his Estate sold . Sir Hen. Slingsby , beheaded at Tower-hill , and his Estate sold . Sir Piercy Herbert , now Lord Powys . Sir Francis Howard . Sir Henry Bedingfield . Sir Arthur Aston , Governour of Reading ▪ Sir Tho. Haggerston . Rog. Bodenham , Esq ; . Charles Townly , Esq ; . Row land Eyre , Esq ; . Peter Pudsey , Esq ; . John Giffard , Esq ; . Other Catholicks , whose Estates were sold by an Additional Rump-Act , made Aug. 4. 1652. HEnry Lord Viscount Dunbar and his sō ▪ Sir Wil. Vavasor . Sir Edw. Ratcliff . Thomas Clifton , Esq ; . Peter Gifford of ●hillington , Esq ; . Walter Fowler of St. Thomas Esq ; . Thomas Brook of Madely , Esq ; . Francis Biddulph of Biddulph , Esq ; . William Middleton of Stocton , Esq ; . Nicholas Errington , Esq ; . Lance Errington Esq ; . Henry Errington , Esq ; . John Jones of Dingestow , Esq ; . John Weston , Esq ; . Phil. Hungate , Esq ; . Rob. Dolman , Gent. Rich. Masley , Gent. Geo. Smith , Gent. Ralph Pudsey , Gent. More Catholicks , whose Estates were sold by another Rump-Act , made Novemb. 18. 1652. HEnry Lord Arundel of Wardor , who raised a Regiment of Horse for the King , and whose Castle of Wardor was so gallātly defēded against Edward Hungerford . Henry Lord Marley and Monteagle . William Lord Ewre . William Lord Powis , who kept long his castle of Powis against the enemy , and afterwards taken in it ; and thereupon was kept a great while prisoner at Stafford , and died in durance at London . Lord Charles Somerset . Sir Walter Blount , long a prisoner in the Tower. Sir Edw. Widdrington , who raised a Regiment of Horse . Sir Richard Tichburn . Sir Charles Blount ( slain also by one of his own Captains ▪ ) Sir J. Clavering dy'd a prisoner at Lond. Sir Iohn Cansfield . Sir Iohn Timelby of Ernam . Sir Philip Constable . Sir Edward Plumpton . Sir Nicholas Thornton , who raised a Troop of Horse at his own charge . Hugh Anderton of Exton , Esq ; . Thomas Langtree of Langtree , Esq ; . Will. Hoghton , Esq ; . William Hesketh , Esq ; . William Latham , Esq ; . Tho. Singleton , Esq ; . Iohn Westby , Esq ; . Sir Edward Charlton . William Sheldon of Beely , Esq ; . William Gage of Bently , Esq ; . Tho. Clavering , Esq ; . Iohn Plumpton , Esq ; . Marm. Holby , Esq ; . Hen. Englefield , Esq ; . Robert Wigmore , Esq ; . Rob. Cramblington , Esq ; . Will. Sherburn , Esq ; . Iohn Constable , Esq ; . Richard Latham , Esq ; . William Bawd , Esq ; . Iames Anderton of Birchley , Esq ; . Thomas Singleton , Esq ; . Iohn Talbot Esq ; . Nich. Fitzakerly , Esq ; . Iohn Piercy , Esq ; . Thomas Acton of Burton , Esq ; Tho. Gillibrand , Esq ; . Tho. Grimshaw , Esq ; . Ralph Rishton , and Wil. Floyer . Gentl. Richard Chorley of Chorley . Iames Anderton of Cleyton , Esq ; . Will ▪ Anderton of Anderton , Esq ; With many others . Mr. Edmund Church of Essex , was one of the first whose personal Estate was plundred , and his real sequestred , which so continued ( without any allowāce to his wife and children ) from 1642. till 1649. when he died prisoner . Mr. Iohn Barlow of Pembrookshire , his whole Estate ( being at least 1500. l. per an . ) was given to Col Horton , and Cap. Nicolas , without any allowance of any fifths , or other sustenance for his wife and many children . Here follow the new added names of those , that were slaine in his Maiestie's service . Sr. Timothy Tetherston killed at Chester . Cap. Thomas Paston slaine at Yorke . Cap. Henry Butler slaine at Brinle . Mr. Richard Seborne slaine at Ragland . Mr. William Alsley slaine at Wiggan . FINIS . Printed with permission an . 1668. Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A31234-e60 a Iosh. 6. 22. a Pyr. Tr. p. 4. a Cam. Brit. P. 163. B. b Vid. Rep. 6. c 645. Monasteries . 110. Hospitals , 90. colledges , 2374. Chaunteries and free Chappels . L. Herb. H. 8. p. 443. a Vid . Rep. 48. sect . 5. b St H. ● . pag. 964. Reg. 26. Notes for div A31234-e2730 a c. 20. p. 40. Notes for div A31234-e3970 a Vid . His last Speech etc. and Printed by Authority 1644. a Cib. B●it . p. 143. b ●ep . ●● a Fox Feb. 12. b Stovv Hen. 6. p. 627. 628. c Fox Ian. 7. d Stovv H. 5. p. 561. ● Hey● . Geog. ● . 20. a Du Moulins v●ords in ansv . to Phil. p. 58. a Bates ▪ Elenc . mo● . p. a Ansv . Phil. p. 61. b Ansv . Phil. p. 59. a Calvinian us verber ● p. 4● . a Ansv . to Philanax , pag. 38. b Ib. p. 41. c Ib. p. 44. d Ib. p. 37. a Q. E● . p. 1259. b p. 413. a 1. K. 7. 23. b Levit. 17. 14. c Gen. 1. 16. a Mat. Paris p. 262. If there had been any Protistants in those days , I vvould not have cited this Author . a Matt. Paris p. 262. a Martin Hen. 2. p. 3● Ric. 1. p. b Heyl. p. 89. Dan. 110 c Baker . d Heyl. pag. 97. e He gave them a Svvord & Cup vvhich they keep still . f Vid. his Hen. 3. pag. 1. g Hovēden . p. 576. Blesensis Chaplain to Hen. 2. Ep. 140. a Dan. Ed. ● . p. 175. a Vid. ●ep . 12. b Loc. Com. ● 57. a Epist . l 4. p. 866. b In Daniel . C. 6. v. 22. c Vid also ●rimst . Hist ▪ of ▪ France . d Bancr ▪ Dangerous Positions ▪ p. 34. a Heyl. p. 314. a Vid. ● . 〈◊〉 . 22. a Euseb lib. 5. Ch. ●4 . a Ann● 604. b p. 130. a Hol. p. 311. a Vid . Rep. 22 b Stovv . p. 561. a Sp. pag. 28. b Cam. Brit p. ●63 . A. c Cam. Brit. ●63 . D. a Rep. 2● . & Rep. 28 a Dan. Ed. 3. p. 183. b Buck Ric. 3. p 150. c Buck. p 81. d An. 1585. Cam. p. 41● . a Hist . Mem. 2 Eliz. p. 21. Ed. 6. Eliz. & Iam. & Char. ● . a P. 444 vid. also Buck. R 3. p. 123. b Rep. 1 c Rep. 18 d Bish. Goodvvin , Baker , Speed , &c. a Baker Q. M. p. 467. b Speed , Q. M. p. 8●2 . c Anno 15●8 . a Stovv in the several Regin● of these tvvo Princes b Baker ● . 1. p. 611. a Dan. Ed. 1. p. 166. b Dan. p. 168. a Bak p 390. a P. ●●6 b Heath pag. 36. a Reign Q. M. p. 1104. a Speed , Q. M. p. 847. Stovv . Q. M. 1055. a 1647. 1656. 1659. b First Moderator . a Act Mon. p. 107. b Speed , p. 347. a Stovv . p. 67. b Dese . Brit. fol 35. c Act. Mon. p. 105. d Heyl. p. 469. a Stovv . p. 66. b Sp. p. 348. b Pag. 195. K. Iohn . a Sir Ed. S. p. 170 a Stap. trans . l. 3. p. 61. b Eur. Mod. Spec. p. 85. a Heyl. p. 71. a Th. p. 1065. a Dav. l. 5. a The Admiral vvas shot four days before the Massacre Dav. lib. 5. a Dav. lib. 2. b Dav. lib. 3. a Hist . Mem. Q. E. p. 17. a Dav. lib. 2. a Buck. p. 12 b Buck. p. 44. c Sp II. 4. p. 6●3 . a Hist Mem. Q. Eliz. p. 5. b L. Herb p. 7. c L. Herb p. 244. d Ios . ● 472. a H. 7. p. 206. a Godvv Q. M. p. 336. b Godvv Q. M. p. 336. c Camb. 1559. p. 43. Printed 1615. d Cam. 1560. p. 53. a C●●d . 1561. p. 67. b Cam. begining 1562. p. 72. a Cam. 1568. p. 135. b Cam. 1568. p. 146. c Cam. 1569. p. 164. a Cam. 1●69 . p. 160 a Cib. ●●●0 . p. 177. a Vi●● Bull. Camb. 1570. p. 180. b H. 7. p. 206. a Hist . Mem. Q. Eliz. p. 28. b Sanders . K. C. p. 68. a Cābd . 1588. p. 476. a St. 2. Eliz. p. 1275. a Epist . to his Convers . of England . b Hist . Mem. p. 105. a Ann. 1●89 . b Epist to the Read a Camb. 1581. & 1592. b Sāders K I am . 1599. p. 225. and 342. a Stovv . Q. M. p. 1056. a Cam. 1586. p. 413. b Cam. 1586. p. 432 , c Cam. 1587. p. 455. a Vide Pref. to the Hist of the World. b H. ● . p. 142. a Back . p. 593. a Vid . their printed Confessions . b Baker . p. 595. a Baker . p 565. b K I am p. 37● . c King. I. p. 920 d Cam. 1586. p. 408. b Camb 1586. p. 419. so the Queen 〈◊〉 . a Wil. King ● . pag. 3. b Wil. King ● . p. 19. c Mem. K. I. p. 37. and ●8 . d Baker K. I. p. ●93 . a The search vvas made the Night before the session ▪ ●●● . 879. a Speed p. 917 , b Speed p. 916. c Wil. K. I. p. 31 a Sand. King I. p. 323. a K. I. p. 32● . ● Mem. K. l. p. 36. a Wil. K. I. in several places . p. 196. &c. a K. I. p. 59● . Speed says the same p. 918. a Vid . Procl . Non. 7. a Vid ▪ Trigg's Almanack fo 1666. and repeated in that of 1668. b Hovv . p. 882. a Vid. Rep. 13. a Catal. Doct ▪ p. 180. b ● . Mot de Eccl. p. 221. a Vid. Pref. b Pref. c Rep. 〈◊〉 . d Rep. 22. e Rep. 2● . f Rep. 6. a Rep. 12. b Rep ▪ 1● . ● Rep. 1. a 1666.