An answer to a late printed paper given about by some of the Church of Rome in a letter to a gentleman. Williams, John, 1636?-1709. 1688 Approx. 40 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 11 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-12 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A66370 Wing W2679 ESTC R24560 08247251 ocm 08247251 41168 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A66370) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 41168) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1244:13) An answer to a late printed paper given about by some of the Church of Rome in a letter to a gentleman. Williams, John, 1636?-1709. The third edition. [1], 18 p. Printed for Walter Kettilby, London : 1688. Reproduction of original in the University of Illinois (Urbana-Champaign Campus). Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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Remember from whence thou art faln , and repent , and doe the first works , or else I will come unto thee quickly , and will remove thy Candlestick out of his place , except thou repent . LONDON , Printed for Walter Kettilby , at the Bishop's Head in St. Paul's Church-Yard . MDCLXXXVIII . THE Popish Paper . IT will not be denied but that the Church of Rome was once a most pure , excellent , flourishing and Mother * Church . This Church could not cease to be such , * but she must fall either by Apostasie , * Heresie or Schism . I. Apostasie is not onely a renouncing of the Faith of Christ , * but the very Name and Title to Christianity : No Man will say , that the Church of Rome had ever such a fall , or fell thus . II. Heresie is an adhesion to some private and singular Opinion , * or Errour in Faith , contrary to the general approved Doctrine of the Church . If the Church of Rome did ever adhere to any singular or new Opinion , * disagreeable to the common received Doctrine of the Christian World , I pray satisfie me as to these particulars , viz. 1. By what General Council was she ever condemned ? * 2. Which of the Fathers ever writ against her ? * Or , 3. By what Authority was she otherwise reproved ? For , It seems to me a thing very incongruous , * that so great a Church should be condemned by every one that hath a mind to condemn her . III. Schism is a departure or division from the Unity of the Church , whereby the Band and Communion held with some former Church , is broken and dissolved . If ever the Church of Rome divided her self by Schism from any other Body of faithful Christians , or brake Communion , or went forth from the Society of any Elder Church : I pray satisfie me as to these particulars . 1. Whose Company did she leave ? 2. From what Body did she go forth ? 3. Where was the true Church which she forsook ? For it appears a little strange to me , that a Church should be accounted Schismatical , when there cannot be assigned any other Church different from her , ( which from Age to Age , since Christ his time , hath continued visible , ) from whence she departed . To my honoured Friend , Mr. S. B. SIR , I Had no sooner perused the Paper which I received from you , but I perceived that it was penn'd for the sake of such , as either are not well acquainted with the matters of Controversie betwixt Us and the Church of Rome , or with the Way and Method of arguing . To such as these they are wont to pretend high : To those that are ignorant of the former , they talk of Antiquity and Universality ; and to such as are unskilful in the latter , of Demonstrations , and self-evident Principles , of Axioms and Definitions . But all this is a mere flourish of Words ; for if these things come strictly to be examined , instead of Antiquity , we shall too frequently find Forgery and Imposture ; instead of the Catholick Church , the Church of Rome ; instead of Demonstrations and Definitions , Sophistry and Fallacious Arguments . And after this strain is this Paper wrote , in which things are so artificially mingled , that they look very speciously to those that do not understand them ; and are so well fitted to work upon the easie , the ignorant , and inconsiderate , that after it had been printed , as I perceive , long since in Fiat Lux , it is again singled out , to be put into the Hands of such as they have a design upon . But I shall endeavour to unravel it , and hope , by that time that I have done , that what is therein said will appear to be wholly insufficient to justifie their Church , and acquit it of those Crimes it is charged with : And this I shall doe by shewing , First , That the whole is false . Secondly , That the particulars are very fallacious . The former I shall make good by these following Considerations : I. That a Church may fall from what it once was . II. That the Church of Rome is not now what it was in Apostolical and Primitive times ; when it might most of all pretend to be ( as he calls it ) a most pure , excellent , and flourishing Church . III. That the alteration from what it was then , to what it is now , is to the worse ; and that it is thereby intolerably corrupted . If these Propositions be proved , then the way taken by our Authour will signifie nothing ; since it will not be worth the while to enquire how it is , whether it be fallen by Apostasie , Heresie , or Schism , when it is demonstrable that so it is , that it is fallen . I. That a Church may fall from what it once was ; that is , from its primitive Purity and Simplicity in Faith and Manners , is evident to any that will read the Scriptures , and mind what is therein said of the Churches of the Jews , Sardis and Laodicea ; or that are acquainted with Ecclesiastical History . And this they of the Church of Rome are bound to grant ; who must acknowledge , according to their own Principles , that we once were a Church , when in their Communion ; and that call us Apostatical , Heretical , and what not , since we have forsaken it . II. That the Church of Rome is not now what it was in Apostolical and Primitive times , but is changed in Principles and Practice . First , In Principles , as , 1. That the Pope is Christ's Vicar ; that is , that he is the Universal Pastor over Christ's Flock , and hath a Jurisdiction over all Churches whatsoever , is a new Principle . This the Scripture ( which the Church of Rome of old used to appeal to ) is so far from giving any Countenance to , that our Saviour expresly cautions the Apostles against any such Usurpation . Luke 22. 25. When there was a strife among them , which of them should be accounted the greatest ; he said unto them , The Kings of the Gentiles exercise Lordship over them , &c. but it shall not be so : but he that is the greatest [ or will be great , Mark 10. 43. ] among you , let him be as the younger , &c and in the 30. v. saith , ye shall sit upon twelve Thrones , &c. not preferring one before the other . And lest what he had occasionally spoke to Peter , Mat. 16. 19. Whatsoever thou shalt bind on Earth , shall be bound in Heaven , &c. should be misconstrued , he doth give the same power to the rest of the Apostles , both before his Death , Mat. 18. 18. and also after his Resurrection , Joh. 20. 23. And if we would understand the sense of Antiquity , as to this matter , I know no surer nor shorter way , than to see what is said by the Councils ; for then the Fathers may be supposed to speak most impartially and with greatest authority ; and of this I shall give you a brief Account . The first general Council was that of Nice , called by Constantine the Great , and held An. 325. which in the sixth Canon doth thus decree , That the Bishop of Alexandria , and accordingly of Antioch , and of other Provinces , should have power over their own Provinces , according to ancient Custome , and the Custome in that case of the Church of Rome ; and that none should invade the Privileges of each other . The same is said and confirmed in the second Canon of the second general Council held at Constantinople by the command of Theodosius the Emperour , An. 380. And farther ratified by the third general Council at Ephesus , in the Year 431. Can. 8. If we go forward , we shall find that it was farther decreed in the abovesaid Council of Constantinople , Can. 3. That the Bishop of Constantinople should have the order of Primacy next to the Bishop of Rome , because it is New Rome . And what is thereby to be understood , is sufficiently declared in the 28th . Canon of the Fourth General Council assembled at Chalcedon ▪ An. 451. in which it is decreed , That the Church of Constantinople should have equal Privileges with that of Rome , there being the same Reason for that as the other , as it was the Imperial Seat : and accordingly is there a particular Instance given in case of Appeals , Can. 9. From this Jurisdiction which every Church had over its own Members , proceeded other Canons : as , That those who were excluded the Communion of one Church , should not be received by another ; so Can. 5. of the aforesaid Council of Nice . That no Appeals should be made to foreign or transmarine Churches ; so the Council held at Milevis in Africa , ( where S. Augustine was present , ) An. 416. Can. 22. which Canon ‖ Bellarmine confesseth was made with a particular respect to Rome . To the same purpose the sixth Council held at Carthage , An. 420. ( in which also S. Augustine was ) passed a Decree * . From all which you may observe , 1. That the Bishop of Rome had anciently a limited Jurisdiction , it was over his own Province onely . 2. That the Jurisdiction which he had over his own Province was such as all other Supreme Bishops had over theirs . 3. That none had a power to transgress the ancient and settled bounds of Jurisdiction , or to invade those of anothers . 4. That the Honour given to the Bishop of Rome ( whatever priority it was that he had ) was not by any Divine Authority , but as Rome was the Imperial Seat. 5. That the Honour and Privilege which it had by that means , was what another was capable of ; for the same was given to Constantinople . 6. That none of these Decrees in those General Councils were ever opposed by the Church of Rome , 'till the Council of Chalcedon . 7. That at that time the pretences of the Pope's Legates were universally opposed and rejected . And I may add , 8. That what was at any time in those days claimed by the Church of Rome , was claimed not upon any Divine Authority , but onely upon the Authority of the Council of Nice , ( as it appears from the transactions in the afore-cited Council of Carthage . ) 9. What was then claimed under that pretext , was upon a pretended , if not a forged , Canon of the Council of Nice , which was detected so to be by that Council of Carthage , and their Usurpation rejected , as is evident from the Acts of that Council , and the Epistle written by the Fathers there assembled , to Pope Celestine upon it . From all which it appears ( and more I could shew ) that there was no such thing originally , as this Universal Pastorship , which the Bishop of Rome doth now challenge , and that Rome is therein changed from what it was . And now let our Authour ask ( if he please ) by what Councils was the Church of Rome ever condemned ? And you may answer , by the four first general Councils . Let him ask again , Which of the Fathers ever wrote against her ? And you may answer , no less than 1068. for so many were then convened in all these four Councils . And if this suffice not , we may turn him to the Councils of Milevis and Carthage before-mentioned , and to others also of good Authority , besides particular Fathers . I have been the longer upon this , not onely because it could not be well comprised in less , but also because if this Claim of theirs fall , their Cause must fall with it . 2. Another new Principle of theirs is , That the Pope hath at least , in ordine ad Spiritualia , a Power over all Kingdoms within the Church , and of deposing Kings in case of Heresie , or Obstinacy , &c. and of absolving Subjects from their Allegiance to them when thus deposed . That this is the Principle of their Church is plain from Can. 3. of the Fourth Council of Lateran , and from the Council of Trent , in Sess. 25. de reform . c. 19. where it is somewhat covertly expressed , for a Reason which the state of Affairs at that time made necessary . That this is the Doctrine of their Church , is proved beyond all contradiction , by the present Lord Bishop of Lincoln , in his late Learned Treatise Of Popery , &c. But that this Doctrine of theirs is new , is commonly confessed among themselves , and maintained so to be by several of their own Communion , and which any one may so far receive satisfaction in , from what is written by Roger Widdrington ( aliàs Preston ) in his Apologia pro Jure Principum , and his Humillima Supplicatio ad Paulum Quintum . 3. Transubstantiation was not originally an Article of their Creed , as it is now . So it is said by Jo. Tribarn , * an approved Authour of theirs , In primitiva Ecclesia de substantia fidei erat , &c. It was of the substance of Faith in the primitive Church , to believe that the Body of Christ was contained under the species of Bread and Wine ; but it was not of Faith , that the substance of the Bread should be turned into the Body of Christ , and upon Consecration should not be Bread. For , saith he , this was not found out by the Church till the time of Innocent the Third , in the Council of Lateran , where many Truths that before lay hid are explained in the Chap. of Firmiter Credimus , amongst which this of Transubstantiation is the chief . So also saith Peter Tataret ‖ . And this was the Opinion of Scotus * , the great Schoolman . Now it is supposed that Scotus , who lived within 150 Years after , must better understand what was the Doctrine of their Church before it , and what was the sense of that Council concerning it , than he that comes about 450 Years after , and chides him for so doing , with a minime probandum ‖ . 4. The Doctrine of Infallibility , respecting their Church as the Seat of it , was not anciently known , neither claimed by themselves , nor granted by others . Amongst all the directions given in Scripture for finding out the truth , there is not one word to this purpose ; and amongst all the Disputes in the Primitive Church , we find no such course taken for the final determination of them , as the having recourse to the Apostolical Chair of Rome . Heresies were not then so scarce , nor the confutation of them so easie , as that this relief should be forgotten . And it seems they themselves did then as little understand their own Privileges , as they did the Principles of Faith ; for this was never so much as thought of , in all those Councils which were called on purpose for the suppression of Heresies , and where the Legats of the Pope were present : Nay to this very day they are at a loss where to go for it , whether to the Pope , or a Council , or both , or Tradition , or the Collective Body of Christians ; that is , they know not whether to give up the Cause or to maintain it . I must confess , if I should hear a person solemnly declare , that he hath Treasure enough in his possession to enrich the whole World , and should gravely invite all persons to address themselves to him , but in the mean time perceive ( though he hath been of the same Mind for several Years , ) that he can neither tell where it is , nor is he and his Family for all this the richer , or in a better condition than other Folk , I should vehemently suspect him either to be a notorious Impost or , or perfect Lunatick . And when we hear the Church of Rome confidently asserting its own Infallibility , but find withall that she knows not where to fix it , and that its ruptures and differences are in the mean time as great as in other Churches , and what are never ended by the way it pretends to , but by plain downright force , I cannot for my heart but think there is for the most part more of Interest than Reason in the Case , and what they themselves do rather live by than believe . But in my mind there is no better Evidence that this is new , than that it 's false ; and no better evidence that it is false , than that it hath mistaken . Of which , besides what hath been , or shall be farther said of alterations in that Church , I shall give you two plain Instances , The Council of Trent ‖ saith , that Traditions are to be received with equal reverence as the Scriptures ; and Maldonat * tells us , that The giving the Eucharist to Children , was a Tradition in the Church for 600 Years after Christ ; which is now condemned ( as he shews ) by the Council of Trent . Again , S. Hierom ‖ saith , that the Latine Church then did not receive the Epistle to the Hebrews amongst the Canonical Scriptures : But that is now taken into the number by them , and required so to be under an Anathema , Sess. 4. Decr. 1. Conc. Trid. Now Infallibility and Fallibility are contradictory , and if that Church hath erred , ( as erred she hath ) then she cannot be infallible , and so consequently the Infallibility of the Church of Rome was not the Principle of the Primitive Church of Rome . I could shew as much of Novelty in the Doctrines of Indulgences , Purgatory , the Mass's being a Propitiatory Sacrifice , and of no Salvation out of the Romish Church , &c. but what I have said I think is sufficient . Secondly , The Alterations are as great in point of Practice ; the Church of Rome differs therein as much from what she originally was : As , 1. The keeping the Scriptures and publick Service in an unknown Tongue , is new . The first is evident from the Translations of the Scripture into several Languages , and especially into the Latine , ( at that time a vulgar Tongue ) of which no sufficient Reason can be given , were it not for the use of those that understood not the Originals . The latter is not onely clear from 1 Cor. 14. but what Bellarmine * doth acknowledge ; who saith , That the custome of the Peoples saying Amen , [ that is to what they understood , ] as they did in the Apostles time , continued long in the Western as well as Eastern Church . 2. Worshipping of Images , which was first established in the second Council at Nice , but is so different from and contrary to the practice of the Primitive Church , that Cassander ‖ ( an Authour of theirs ) saith , that the Christians had not then so much as Images in their Churches ; and doth farther declare from Origen , that the Ancients ab omni veneratione ( the very word used by the Council of Trent , Sess. 25. decret , de Invocat . ) imaginum abhorruerunt , that all Veneration of them was abhorred . To this I refer the worshipping of Saints , which was so little thought of , that many of the Fathers did not think that the Souls of any should enjoy the beatifick Vision , and be in a state of happiness till the Resurrection , as Stapleton * doth shew . And it seems not to have been an Article of Faith in the time either of Lombard or Scotus , the former of which saith ‖ It's not incredible the Saints do hear what we say ; and the latter * that it 's probable God doth reveal our prayers that are offered unto them . It was then the Doctrine of probability onely , but now all are required to believe it under an Anathema , by the Council of Trent ‖ . As much is to be said concerning the Innovation of Worship to the Virgin Mary , of which we read nothing in Scripture or Antiquity , unless in what was practised by the Hereticks , called Collyridiani in Epiphanius ‖ , that used to carry about her Image , and offer Cakes and Worship to it ; with whom that good Father thus encounters : What Scripture hath delivered any such thing , &c. Let Mary be in honour , but let the Father , the Son , and the Holy Ghost be worshipped ; let no man worship Mary . 3. Communion in one Kind expresly contrary to the Scripture , and the former practice of the Romish Church . The former is acknowledged by the Council of Constance * when they decreed with a notwithstanding for it . The latter is acknowledged by Cassander ‖ , who saith , That the Roman Church it self retained the practice of receiving in both Kinds , for above one thousand years after Christ , as is evident from innumerable testimonies of ancient Writers . To these I might add the practice of saying private and solitary Masses , of the Adoration of the Host , and carrying it about in Procession , Confession , ( as used in their Church , ) &c. But I shall forbear . III. These alterations are to the worse ; and gross Corruptions . For if the Pope is not Christ's Vicar originally , and by his Deputation , then he is so far a great Usurper . If he hath not a Power over Kings , to depose them , and absolve their Subjects from Allegiance to them , then those of them that have used that power have been notorious disturbers of the World. If their Church be not infallible , and can no more penetrate into , or resolve and determine points of Faith than another , they do deceive and are deceived . If Transubstantiation be a Doctrine of their own , and not of Christ's , they usurp upon his Prerogative . If the Scriptures are free to all , then their Church is guilty of the damnation of all amongst themselves , that perish through the want of knowing and understanding them ; and of all the ignorance in the Christian World , which proceeds from that cause . If worshipping Images , Saints and Angels , the Host , and Reliques , be not Christian Doctrine , and that these are no lawful Objects of such Worship , then they are Idolaters . If Christians are obliged to partake of the Wine as well as the Bread in the Lord's Supper , then what are they that deny and forbid it ? In fine , they that doe such things are no Friends to the Kingdom of Christ and the Christian World. If all this be true , that a Church may fall from what it once was , and be altered to the worse , and that theirs is so , then we need not spend time in disputing what Apostasie , Heresie and Schism is , upon which we may talk prettily and subtilly ; or by which of them that Church is faln , as long as faln she is . But yet to clear the matter of all wrangling Disputes , I shall consider these things also ; and shew , Secondly , That the particulars are very fallacious ; which will appear from the consideration of the several Terms . 1. Most pure , excellent , flourishing Mother-Church ; of all which little or nothing is said in the places of Scripture quoted by him in the Margin . If we consult the Epistle to the Romans , there referred to , we shall find , That it was so far from being at that time a flourishing Church , that it is there not once so much as called a Church . The Apostle directs two Epistles to the Church in Corinth , and two to the Church of the Thessalonians , and one to the Churches of Galatia ; but to the Romans he writes thus , Ch. 1. v. 7. To all that be in Rome , beloved of God , called to be Saints ; as if they were yet Converts at large , without any other setled Constitution , than what was in the House of Aquila , which he therefore calls a Church , Ch. 16. v. 5. And therefore Salmeron , aware of it , thinks St. Paul would not call them a Church purposely , because of the Factions that were there at that time betwixt the Jews and Gentiles . Tom. 13. in Rom. 1. disp . 7. p. 299. col . 2. But if we should grant it a Church ; yet how doth that , Rom. 1. 8. prove that it was flourishing , when it 's onely said there , Your Faith is spoken of throughout the whole World ; and in Ch. 16. v. 19. ( for I suppose that is the other place he would refer to ) Your obedience is come abroad unto all Men ; by which doubtless no more is to be understood , but that the Conversion of many to Christianity in that City was spread throughout the Roman World ; and did tend much to the propagation of it , as that City was then the Imperial Seat. This is the explication given of this place by some of their own Writers , viz. Rigaltius , in his Notes upon St. Cyprian , Epist. p. 78. and Tolet , who in c. 1. ad Rom. Annot. 16. call it a true Exposition , and saith it 's to be understood as 1 Thes. 1. 8. As for the Term Mother , I hope he means not that the Gospel first came from thence ; for in that sense she was a Daughter , and not a Mother . And if any Church could pretend to any Authority from that consideration , it must be Jerusalem , which in this sense was the Mother of us all . But if he means thereby that she was an Original and Apostolical Church , planted by the Apostles , or in Apostolical times ( for so Tertullian useth these Words alike , lib. de praescript . cap. 21. when he calls them Matrices & Originales Ecclesiae , and again Ecclesiae Apostolicae ) then such also was Ephesus in Asia , and Corinth in Achaia , &c. as Tertullian there shews , c. 32 , and 36. of which Churches it will be hard for him to find any thing remaining , and which , while they did remain , he must acknowledge to have faln , and been grosly corrupted . And therefore Rome's being a Mother Church , in this sense , is no security against Apostasie , Heresie and Schism . 2. Apostasie , he saith , is a renouncing not onely the Faith of Christ , but the very Name and Title to Christianity . This indeed is Apostasie with a Witness ; but as it is no more than a Branch or particular kind of it , so it can be no complete or true definition of it . It being just as if he should say , that Theft is the violent and forcible taking away of another Man's Goods ; which indeed is the highest degree of it , and what we usually call Robbery ; but there are other sorts of Theft besides ; and though it be never so surreptitiously and clandestinely done , it is as well Theft , and a breach of the Eighth Commandment as the other . So it is in the present case ; the highest degree of Apostasie is a renouncing the very name of Christian , the turning a Renegado , a Turk , or Jew : But that is Apostasie also , when there is a departure from the Faith of Christ , or from any great Article or Articles of it . And so far a person may be truly an Apostate , and yet retain the Name and Title to Christianity . I must confess , I always took those to be Apostates , whom the Apostle speaks of , 1 Tim. 4. 1. that depart from the Faith of Christ , who yet seem to have continued in the profession of it . And I am apt to believe Antichrist will be thought an Apostate ; and yet it 's the opinion of many among themselves , that he shall retain the name of Christian. But if this will not doe , I must refer him to the Bulla Coenae of Pope Paul the Fifth , where it 's said in the first Article of it , Excommunicamus , &c. We excommunicate and anathematise , &c. all Hussites , Wicklevists , Lutherans , Zuinglians , Calvinists , Hugonots , Anabaptists , Trinitarians , & à Christiana fide Apostatas , ac omnes & singulos alios Haereticos , &c. and all Apostates from the Christian Faith , and all other Hereticks , &c. which is doubtless spoken of such as have not , nor are supposed to have renounced the Name and Title to Christianity . So that either the Pope in one of his most solemn Bulls is mistaken , or this Gentleman : And if we take to the former , as I hope he either in modesty , or for a more important reason which he is privy to , will allow , then the Church of Rome may be faln by Apostasie , though she doth retain the Name and Title , and will needs be the onely Church of Christ. 3. Heresie , he saith , is an adhesion to some private or singular Opinion or Errour in Faith , contrary to the general approved Doctrine of the Church . Before we admit this Definition , there are a great many things to be considered ; as first , that the relation which he makes Heresie to have to the Doctrine of the Church , is not current amongst themselves . For many of them do say , that Heresie is Nihil aliud quàm Error in rebus fidei cum pertinacia , Heresie is nothing else than an Errour in the matters of Faith with obstinacy , as Sayrus acknowledgeth in his Clavis Sacerdotum , l. 2. c. 9. n. 34. and Durand is of the same mind ( notwithstanding what Sayrus saith of him to the contrary ) as appears l. 4. dist . 13. Q. 5. where he makes the respect which Heresie hath to the Church , to be because the Church is constituted , per unitatem fidei , by the unity of the Faith : So that according to these , the respect which Heresie hath to the Church , is onely from the respect which the Church hath to the Faith : And to find out what Heresie is , we must enquire not what the Church is , but what is the Faith. And if so , a Church , even that of Rome , may fall by Heresie , though she may hold the general approved Doctrine of the Church . But I doubt , if we should admit the whole , and yet take it in any sense but one , viz. for the general approved Doctrine of the Church of Rome in the last Ages of it , that we shall find her guilty in this point also . Shall the Church be taken for the primitive Church three or four hundred years after our Saviour , then they are guilty of Heresie who will have the Pope to be Christ's Vicar , and to have Jurisdiction over all Churches ; that do maintain worshipping of Images , Angels and Saints , to be lawful and necessary , &c. contrary to the general approved Doctrine of those Ages . Should we take the Church for the Church Catholick in any Age ( as Cassander doth , Consult . Artic. 22. ) that is , the Congregation of Christ's faithful people all over the World , then still Rome would fall into the same condemnation , since that she is but a little part in comparison of the whole . Should we take Church again for the Romish Church in the first Ages of Christianity , it would then also condemn it self , as I have before shewed . And I see no way for them , even according to this definition , ( which is perfectly one of their own making ) to avoid this imputation , but by stifly maintaining , that they thereby understand the Church of Rome for some Ages last past ; if that will doe ; and then we know where to find them , and what to understand when they talk of the Church . 4. Schism , he saith , is a departure from the Vnity of the Church whereby the Band and Communion held with some former Church is broken . This is as lame and fallacious a definition as any of the rest . For by foisting in that word Former , which he after runs upon , he restrains it to one particular Branch of Schism ; and it 's just as if he should say , A Church is an Assembly of Christians that join in Communion with each other in the City of Rome ; which none will allow to be a sufficient definition of a Church : For that term added , In the City of Rome , doth no more than prove that the Assembly of Christians there met is a Church ; but is no definition of a Church ; for then no Church could be out of the City of Rome , and every Church , if it be a Church , must be in that City , and no where else , if that be a true definition of it . So it is here , the word Former added to the definition of Schism here given , doth prove no more than that a departure from the Unity of a Former Church is a species and sort of Schism , but is no adequate definition of it . For if it is , then no Church can be guilty of Schism , that doth , how unwarrantably soever , refuse to hold Communion with , or doth break off from the Communion of a Church that was not a Church before it . And consequently , though the Church of Jerusalem had denied to hold Communion with any Church whatsoever , ( though it were even with the Church of Rome it self , ) she could not be guilty of Schism , because she was the first Church , and none was prior to her . And we also should be quit of that blame ( if we had nothing else to say for our selves ) forasmuch as a Church was founded here in Britain two years before that of Antioch ; and St. Peter was seven years at Antioch before he presided at Rome , as Baronius saith , An. 35. Num. 5. and An. 39. Numb . 23. from whom , and from which time they pretend alone to derive their Supremacy . And now this will hold , although the Church thus separated from had given no reason or colour at all for it . For according to the definition of our Authour , it must be a Former Church which the departure must be from to make it Schism . We may indeed say , that Schism is when the Band or Communion held with any Church , is ( without just reason ) broken and dissolved ; because all Christian Churches ought to maintain Communion with each other , where it may be had : But if so , then the Church of Rome is the most Schismatical in the World , that denies Communion with all Churches that are not in all Tridentine points one with her . If you now , Sir , reflect upon his Scheme and frame of Arguments , you will see that they hold in nothing which he produceth them for . For what will it signifie , if it be granted that the Church of Rome was once a most pure , flourishing Church , if she be now abominably corrupted ? What if she was a Mother-Church planted by the Apostles , and watered with their Doctrine , and their Bloud , when she now preacheth another Doctrine than she was taught by them , and hath grosly corrupted that Faith which they did there establish ? What if she was a Mother-Church to some other Churches , yet , that as it gives her no Authority over those whom she was not in any sense a Mother to , so even not over such as she might pretend that Relation to , when she is now not to be approached to , or held Communion with , without apparent hazard of Salvation ; and is faln from those Principles and that Faith which she at their first conversion instructed them in ? When she is faln by Apostasie , Heresie and Schism . By Apostasie , as she hath forsaken the Primitive Church , and is not now what she originally was , either in Faith or Manners . By Heresie , as she hath received new Articles of Faith , that were not such before ; and so obstinately persisted therein , that she hath turned the Anathema upon all Dissenters in those points from her . Such Articles she hath embraced , and doth now hold , as have been condemned by Councils , wrote against by Fathers , and reproved by Authority . Some of these she was particularly charged with , and reproved for ; and in others she is as much concerned , as if particularly charged , because she hath embraced those things which were by them condemned . For if the things and principles were condemned , whoever holds them is as much so condemned by that Authority , as if particularly named . As they will acknowledge , that if a Church now in Communion with them should fall off from them , she is thereby as much under the Anathema of the Council of Trent , as if she had at the meeting of that Council been so far faulty , and thereby been particularly condemned . By Schism she is faln , as she denies Communion with all other Churches in the World , whether they were so before she was a Church , or were Churches converted and established at the same time with her , or that have embraced the Christian Faith since she did . The company of such she hath left : From these Bodies she is gone forth : And these were the true Churches which she forsook . So that she will be found as often guilty of Apostasie , as there are particulars of Faith , Doctrine , Worship and Manners , which she is fallen from the Primitive Church in . As often of Heresie , as she hath new Principles of Faith , and which the Church was not then acquainted with . As often of Schism , as there are Churches in the World , that she will not hold Communion with , onely because they will not embrace those Principles , or join with her in those practices which she holds contrary to them , and with them to the Primitive Church . And thus , Sir , I have made good , I hope , what I first undertook , and if thereby any service can be done to you or our Religion , it will be a great satisfaction to , SIR , Your Servant . FINIS . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A66370-e140 * Rom. 1. 8. * Rom. 16. * Rom. 6. * White , defence of his Way . p. 435. * King Jam. in his Speech to the Parliament . * Whitaker in his Answer to D. Sand. * 2 Demonst. * Fulk in c. 22 Thes. Sect. 7. * Reynolds in his 5th . Conclusion . Notes for div A66370-e560 ‖ L. 2. de Rom. Pon. cap. 24. * Can. 31. * Comment . in 4. Sent. Scoti . l. 4. Dist. 11. Q. 3. disp . 42. Sect. 1. ‖ Com. in 4. Sent. p. 101. col . 1. Ven. 1607. and p. 142. col . 1. * In 4 Sent. dist 11. q. 3. SS . ad argument . pro prima & dist . 10. q. 1. SS . quantum ergo . ‖ Bellarmin l. 3. de Euchar. c. 2● . ‖ Sess. 4. d●cr . 1. * C●m in Joh. 6. p 317. ‖ In I●a c 6. &c. 8. * De Verbo Dei , lib. 2. cap. 16. ‖ Consult . Artic 21. sect . 4. * Defens . Eccl. cont . Whitaker , l. 1. c. 2. Tom. 1. p. 868. ‖ Sent. l. 4. dist . 45. * In 4. dist . 45. Q 4. ‖ Sess. 25. de Invocat . ‖ Haeres . 79. * Sess. 13. ‖ Artic. 22.