An apology for Rushworth's dialogues wherein the exceptions for the Lords Falkland and Digby and the arts of their commended Daillé discover'd / by Tho. White. White, Thomas, 1593-1676. 1654 Approx. 357 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 143 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-03 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A65773 Wing W1809 ESTC R30193 11258858 ocm 11258858 47186 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A65773) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 47186) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 1452:12) An apology for Rushworth's dialogues wherein the exceptions for the Lords Falkland and Digby and the arts of their commended Daillé discover'd / by Tho. White. White, Thomas, 1593-1676. [16], 261 p. Chez Jean Billain ..., A Paris : 1654. "Daillè's arts discovered" has special t.p. Errata on p. [16]. Reproduction of original in the University of Illinois (Urbana-Champaign Campus). Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Rushworth, William. -- Dialogues. Catholic Church -- Apologetic works. Tradition (Theology) 2004-10 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-10 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2004-11 Jonathan Blaney Sampled and proofread 2004-11 Jonathan Blaney Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-01 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion AN APOLOGY FOR RUSHWORTH'S DIALOGUES . WHERIN The Exceptions of the Lords FALKLAND and DIGBY are answer'd : AND The Arts of their commended DAILLé Discover'd . By THO. WHITE , Gent. Psal. 63. 8. Sagittae Parvulorum factae sunt plagae eorum . A Paris , Chez Jean Billain Ruë St. Jacques a l'ensign St. Augustin . 1654. TO His ever Honoured Cosen Mr. ANDREW WHITE , of the House of THUNDERSLEY . Honour'd Cosen , THough Kindred , Education , and known love all conspire to make me obnoxious to any good Counsel you please to give me ; yet the aversness I have from answering Books , permitted me not , in our last enterview , to promise obedience to your directions . But , since that happines of seeing you , an unanimous consent of other friends has made me more steadily reflect on what you desir'd ; and considering besides , that the Doctrine of Rushworth's Dialogues takes a path not much beaten by our modern Controvertists , I resolv'd to imitate the example of the penitent Son , who , after denial , perform'd his Fathers commands . Behold then , here , the brood hatcht and brought forth by your advice : 'pray heaven it prove worthy your acknowledging ! which I say , not , to engage you in the patronage of what I deliver , farther then truth shal convince your judgment ; or to make the World imagin these Conceptions may find shelter in your breast : No , I am as cruel to my writings , as the Ostridge to her Eggs : when once they are laid , let nature play her part to foster or smother the Chickens , as she pleases . Let truth commend or condemn my sayings . He that is ready to renounce falsity , and acknowledge his weaknes , is stronger then envy , and beyond the shot of malice . Neither have I occasion to suspect any imputation should fall upon you for this publishing my Present to you , as I fear it happen'd to another friend : For , I apprehend , I may have written here some Periods , which none wil expect should be approved by you ; Only , who understands the amplitude of your soule , may know , it is able to harbour with indifferency what is spoken against your own sense and consent ; it being the gift and task of a wise man , Imperare liberis . What I have perform'd , wherin fail'd , is your part to judg ; for my self , I can profess I desire not to irritate the meanest person , nor seek I the glory of oppugning the Greatest : my ayne is , to open and establish truth ; Frivolous and by-questions I have on set purpose avoided . Whether all objections of moment are answered , as I cannot affirm , so I can protest I am no more conscious of declining any , then of dissembling , when I write my self Your affectionate Cosen and humble servant , THO. WHITE . Paris , Sept. 21. 1652. A Second DEDICATION to the same Person . Learned , and by me ever to be honour'd Cosen ! T Is so long since the former Address to you was written , that no wonder it should now be asham'd to come abroad without some excuse to justify the slowness of its pace ; which is no other , then a simple protest , that it has not stuck in my hands for at least a whol yeer and an half . Upon these few words I could sit down and confidently promise my self your pardon ; But emergent imputations force me to a larger Apology : The expedition in some other late Works of mine rendring the seeming neglect of this more obnoxious to exception ; as if I were rather ambitious to display the errors of some of our own side , then the enormities of professed Enemies ; and your self are conceiv'd to have a part in this suspition . Now , since , from that long and constant commerce you have stil maintain'd with true Vertue & Learning , I cannot but expect a great rationality and amplitude in your Soul , even to bear with the defectuousnes of others , as far as you see they govern themselvs by that measure of understanding which God affords them , I find my self oblig'd to give you the best account I can of my proceedings , which I doubt not wil prove so much an easier task , as you , with whom I am to deal , are of a higher strain , then our trivial discoursers ; for , as I think , those who set up their rest , that there is no science to be attain'd by study , are pardonable , if they chuse opinions by pretence of devotion or reality of interest : So I give my cause for lost , if they be my Judges . But I hope the great fire of truth , which first kindled in my young breast a glowing of it , and an earnestnes of seeking it in St. Thomas his way , has not been by length of time as much quench'd in you , as quickn'd in me ; and therfore with a ful confidence I represent my Case to you , not doubting but the evidence I produce wil justifie , if not the action it self , at least the necessity I have to act as long as the present perswasion is not forc'd from me . To come then to my Plea ; If St. Peter commands us to be ready to give satisfaction to all that shall ask it , concerning the hope that is in us , by which is meant our belief , the basis and firm support of our hope ; If the design of all that meddle with this sort of study should chiefly aim to shew , that the doctrins of Christianity are conformable to reason , and such as a prudent Person , though also learned , may imbrace , without prejudice either to his discretion , or knowledge : If the suggesting to our first parents , that God sought to govern them like fools , without the least discernment betwixt good or evil , be the greatest and unworthiest calumny Satan himself could invent to charge upon the Almighty : If it be the basest condition that can befal a rational Essence , and the most contrary both to God and man , whose natures consist in knowing and reasoning ; what can I conclude , but that such Teachers , as , for ignorance or interest , obstinately resolve ( in treating with those who are out of the Church ) to maintain opinions , wherof no account can be made , either out of Antiquity or Reason , are unworthy the function they profess , and highly obstructive to the progress of the Catholik faith ? You , who have looked into the large Volumes of Controvertists on both sides , cannot but know they are petty questions , and the impugnances of private opinions , that swel those vast Tomes into such an unweldy and intolerable bulk ; I 'm sure not only I , but divers of my friends have had experience , that those very opinions ( for opposing which , I am exclaimd against ) have been the retardment of the most ingenious and disinteressed party of Protestants ; and that others , who were become Catholiks , out of a pure necessity which they saw of submitting themselvs to some unerring authority , when they heard their faith declar'd in a rational way , found themselvs eased , as it were , of chains and imprisonment , and translated into a natural state and liberty . I need not press , how ulcers in our vitals , are more dangerous then in our outward members ; and that we cannot convince others , whilst our selvs are ignorant in the Points we pretend to teach them . No wise Captain searches the Hospitals for Perdues & Forcers of breaches . It is a great step towards the reducing others to reason , if first we make our own thoughts rational . This is my endeavour , this is my fault , for which I am so deeply censur'd , even by Catholiks . As for Persons , my writings neither name nor touch any : and those who make themselvs pointed at by their forward boasts of defending the opinions I dispute against , either understand not me or themselvs : for , did it deserve the pains , I would undertake to shew out of their printed Writers , that they doe not , with any universality , maintain those tenets I contradict . If in this present Treatise I have in one place descended to more particulars then my course and nature incline me to , I appeal to your own Judgment , whether I do more then follow my Adversary , by replying upon his very words ; and therfore your commands ought to be my excuse . But some think , at least this conjuncture improper to begin this Work , & I wish they could give me a good cause of delay ; they should finde me very ready to accept it ; But I know no time in which destructive Errors should live unconfuted ; our great Master securing us by his example , neque ad horam cessimus ; nor can your self be ignorant with what fury and violence the opposite opinion strives at this very day to possess the Chruch of God , and break the eternal Rule of Christian faith . Wherfore , though conscious of my own weaknes , and that , unless God extraordinarily shews his power , my endeavours wil take no place , yet propter Sion non tacebo , & propter Hierusalem non quiescam . Your most obliged Cosen , and obedient servant , T. W. 27 March 1654. The Table . THe Introduction page 1 The first Encounter . Explicating the argument , by which Rushworth proves the infallibility of Tradition p. 7 The second Encounter . Defeating three Oppositions made against Tradition p. 14 The third Encounter . Solving two other Objections against the infallibility of Tradition p. 22 The fourth Encounter . That unlearned Catholiks rely on the infallibility of Tradition p. 31 The fifth Encounter . That Catholik Divines rely on the same infallibility of Tradition p. 36 The sixth Encounter . Disabling three other arguments brought against Tradition p. 44 The seventh Encounter . Answering the Greeks and some Divines . who object new beliefs to the Catholik Church p. 50 The eighth Encounter . That our Lady's immaculate Conception is not likely to become an Article of Faith p. 64 The ninth Encounter . Shewing the unanimous agreement of Divines , that all infallibility is from Tradition p. 70 The tenth Encounter . That there was no Tradition for the errour of the Chyliasts p. 77 The eleventh Encounter . That there was Tradition for the Trinity , before the Council of Nice p. 84 The twelfth Encounter . That the necessity of communicating Infants is no Tradition , but prayer to Saints is . p. 99 The thirteenth encounter . Reflecting on certain considerations , and shewing that there is nothing able to disprove the Church of Romes Communion , to be the sign of the true Church p. 107 The fourteenth Encounter . Four other Arguments revers'd p. 113 The fifteenth Encounter . Declaring the state of this question , Whether the Scripture can decide Controversies ? p. 135 The sixteenth Encounter . Examining five Texts brought for the sufficiency of Scripture p. 150 The seventeenth Encounter . Examining such places as are brought against the admittance of any but Scriptural proof in Religion p. 262 The eighteenth Encounter . Declaring the reasons of the Authors concluding , without proceeding to the examination of the Fathers Testimonies p. 173 The first Survey . Of the Nature and subject of Deille's Book p. 179 The second Survey . Of the two first Chapters of his first book ; wherin he urges , that the Fathers of the three first Ages were few , and their writings wholly unconcerning our Controversies p. 188 The third Survey . Of his third and fourth Chapters ; wherin he objects forgery and corruption of the Fathers works p. 197 The fourth Survey . Of the fifth Chapter , wherin he objects the Fathers Eloquence , and that on set purpose they spake obscurely p. 208 The fifth Survey . Of the six Chapters following , wherin he objects wilful deceit to the Fathers p. 216 The sixth Survey . How the Authority of Fathers is infallible p. 226 The seventh Survey . Of the four first Chapters of his second Book ; wherein he pretends , The Fathers gave wrong notions of the Faith of the Church ; and that they spake not like Judges . 232 The eighth Survey . Of the two last Chapters of his second Book ; wherein he says , many Fathers have agreed in the same Errors ; and objects certain varieties between the ancient and modern Church p. 238 The ninth Survey . In Answer to two Questions , in his last Chapter : One , the Fathers being rejected , to what Judge we ought to recur ? The other , What use is to be made of the Fathers ? p. 250. ADVERTISMENT . THe Reader is desired to take notice , that this Apology particularly relates to the last Edition of Rushworth's Dialogues ( in 80 of the Long-Primer-Letter 1654 , as which alone has felt throughout this Authors last hand ) and principally undertakes the refutation of Lucius Lo. Falkland's Discours of Infallibility , and George Lo. Digby ( now Earl of Bristow ) his printed Letters to Sir Ken. Digby ; which he performs in a stile modest and respective , answerable to the dignity of their Persons , and civility of their Writings . The Animadversions upon Daillé are apply'd to the English Translation by T. S. not to the French Original ; wherin the Reader wil easily pardon those uncourteous expressions he shal meet with , if he consider how little favour he deservs from his equals , that insolently condemns his Betters ; nay perhaps approve the justice of so necessary a resentment ; since 't were unreasonable in him to pretend the least regard from his Cotemporaries , that has compos'd so infamous and injurious a Libel against all Antiquity . ERRATA . PAge 13. l. 1. since in Const. p. 27. l. 13. Eight's , p. 58. l. 20. which were . p. 78. l. 10. handing p. 82. l. 16. to our ears . p. 102. l. 7. reatus , & l. 17. is there . p. 106. l. 2. be not . & l. 28. but by their . p. 119. l. 2. exposes . p. 127. l. 3. evident they cannot . p. 128. l. 5. part , that is , the ▪ p. 137 ▪ l. 10. the venom . p. 142. l. last , attempt the other . p. 143. l. 1 , 2 , dele ( but out of Scr. nor yet in that doe they use so fair play ) p. 148. Parenthesis begins at ( this , l. 10. and ends at being ) l , 13. p. 152. l. 2. vivifying , & l. 25. in the first . p. 174. l. last , day , as com — p. 179. l. 7. with . p. 193. l. 2. so few . p. 237. l. 28. not bound , p. 238. l. 19. certain varieties , p. 245. p. 243. l. 23. dele of , l. 7. in his . p. 248. l. last , shal not in . AN APOLOGY FOR TRADITION . The Introduction . THus it will sometimes happen ; that events of greatest importance take their rise from smal occasions . The Controversy , this following Treatise undertakes , began in a slight familiar conference betwixt two intimate friends and kinsmen , as it were only for exercise to train themselvs , and practice their postures : but since by the entrance of new Allies is become of so high concernment , that what at first was a private voluntary skirmish , seems now to spread it selfe into a publique and solemn War. Nor need I strain much to make good the phrase , since the eminent Names , on the one side , and the great advantage of ground on the other , may justly be admitted to supply the number of an Army in both . And , because I desire to prepare my self with the fittest proportion I could for the assaults of my Adversaries , I have declin'd the Sword and Buckler , and taken up a single Rapier ; chang'd the antique weapons of Dialogue , ( though ▪ in my opinion , they want neither ornament nor particular efficacy ) into the modern mode of direct discourse : Wherein , as I confesse , Their guilded Armour shines more , and dazles the ey ; so I fear not , when we come to charge , our courser steel wil prove substantial and impenetrable . However I shall not spend much time in parley ; but after a short relation how I come to be drawn into the quarrel , and by what method I intend to carry it on , I shall immediately advance to a close encounter . Before those Dialogues ( wherein that original private conference is at larg delivered ) were brought to light , or ( as I think ) fully conceiv'd in the Authors brain ; an honoured friend , and Patron of mine had couch'd some smal , but quintessential part of their doctrin in a little pithy Present to a new-converted Lady ; and having cited it afterward for brevity sake , in a controversial Epistle to an eminent Friend , engag'd it therby into an almost fatal combat ; nothing but truth being able to rescue it from so potent an enemy . Besides , a deceased friend of mine having oblig'd me to declare my opinion concerning a witty discourse made by one of his acquaintance , extorted from me an unlick'd Mola , representing suddenly and imperfectly , my judgement in reference to that Authors work . This again , stirring the same humours , drew the doctrin into an eminent danger of encountring opposition . Neverthelesse , God so ordering it , many years past , in calm and happy daies of peace , the two Adversaries ( whom these occasions had provoked ) not publishing their Labours , as things below their persons ; till all-discovering time ( as I believe ) against the Authors intentions , brought them both to light , and , by consequence , an imputation on those Dialogues , and a necessity on me to dis-engage the honour of their Composer . In order to which , my intention is not to reply minutely to either of the Opponents works ; muchles to handle any by-questions : but only to chuse out of them , or any others , what I conceive may possibly be thought as yet unanswer'd , and consequently capable of prejudicing those Dialogues . By this reserv'd and moderate temper , I hope to free my self from all such incivilities as necessarily attend on the undertaking to convince a particular person of weakness or inconsequence in his discours , from which kind of captious proceedings , besides my Reason , I am beholding to my Nature for its extream aversnes . Besides , in answering a writing , many impertinent quarrels are pick'd , the substantial controversie lost or confounded , and the Truth it self , by multiplicity , left more obscure then when the disputant began : for , where many questions are started and none deeply searched into , the Reader goes away without any resolution , more then what himself brought along with him . I intend therefore with all candor and fidelity , to select such objections as I think really interest the Controversie ; and handle them without relation to Books or distinction of Authors , or citations of places : as one who seeks Truth , not the glory of confuting or vanity of answering . But some may be unsatisfied with my proceedings , and demand , if this be my intention , why do I cite those Authors in particular ; and , as it were , make a shew of answering , without any effect : I desire those to consider , that the names of Author's carry weight , among two sorts of Readers ; One , such as diligently peruse the books written on both sides ; to whom I offer this satisfaction , that they may find the solution to any difficulty which occurs concerning this subject , in their writings : The other , such who look no farther then the Title page , or whether a book be answer'd or no , are insolent upon the writers name , and importunely clamorous , that 't is a Piece beyond all possibility of reply , be it never so weak and trivial ; to whom the simple profession that 't is answered , is a wedg fit for their knot . I must confesse , next to the assurednesse of my Cause , 't is my chiefest comfort to deal with Persons of such quality : such as the Protestant party never produced before : it seems to have chosen them to live by , or die with . Two , whose Merits found the way of honouring their Descents , by their generosity ; whose eloquence none were found to exceed , whose wits none wil be found to equal . What erudition in Languages , or acutenes in Logick could furnish , was treasur'd in their breasts : But above all , a comprehensive judgement , in managing the numerous and weighty affairs of a Kingdom to the very heightning that sublime and subtlest Office , ( Secretary of State ) which they both , successively , exalted to such a pitch , that it must expect a fall in whoever shall succeed them . One is , the right honourable George Lord Digby ( now Earl of Bristol ) ever mounting the scale of Honour to a degree so far above the reach of others , that 't is even beyond their sight : The other , Lucius Lord Falkland , who crown'd his deserved Lawrell with a wreath of Oaken Scyons ; dying in such a posture , as if mischief could not have ravag'd England , had it not made its passage through the brest of that Martyr of Peace . I can accuse him of nothing , but that he left this Book behind him ; it being too plain what unhappy impression it maks in his Friends , since my self , almost a stranger , cannot read those quaint and gentile expressions , those rarities of wit , those coruscations of Greek and Latine remarques , and ( which most of all surprizes my admiration ) those Noble sweetnesses and civilities so unexpected in a quarrelling Treatise ; but I feel in my heart an unusual sorrow and regret , that our thoughts cannot stay on him , without the sad check of a fuit . But , since we are out of hope to resuscitate him that 's gon , like the day he died on ; let us ( by Davids example ) leave these flattering weaknesses of nature , and seek severe reason in the controversy we pretend to manage . THE FIRST ENCOUNTER , Explicating the Argument , by which RUSHWORTH proves the Infallibility of Tradition . THe Dialogues ( in whose defence we now appear , as Second ) govern their discourse by this fair method : First , they treat and settle these definitions ; Tradition we call , the delivery of Christs doctrin from hand to hand , in that part of the world which , with propriety , is call'd Christian : By Christs doctrine , we mean that which was generally preach'd by the Apostles , and contains all such points as are necessary to the salvation of the World ; not only in particular , to single persons , but for government of the Church , and bringing multitudes , with convenience , to perfection in this life , and felicity in the next . Which being establisht , they immediately proceed to this general Position , that All Christ taught , or the Holy Ghost suggested to the Apostles , of this nature , is , by a direct uninterrupted liue , entirely and fully descended to the present Church , which communicates with , and acknowledges subjection to the Roman : Adding also the convers of that proposition , viz. Nothing is so descended , but such Truths ; nor any thing held by this tenure , but what is so descended ; which being cast up , amounts to this great Conclusion , No errour was ever , or can be embraced by the Church , in quality of a matter of faith . The proof consists in this : Since 't is confessed the Catholik Church goes upon this Maxim , that Her Doctrine is received from Christ , and still handed along to the present generation ; they who cavil at this assertion , should assign some Age when they conceive an errour crept in ; and the maintainer should prove it enter'd not in that Age , Because that Age held nothing was to be admitted , as of Faith , except what was deliver'd to it by the former : but the Objectors themselves say , this supposed errour was not deliver'd by the former , since they put it to be , now , first , believ'd ; therfore the Age in which they imagin this errour crept in , could not be the first that believ'd it . And , lest some might reply , though the present Roman Church stands now upon the proposed maxim , yet anciently it did not ; the same argument may be thus reiterated , If this principle which now governs the Church had not always done so , it must have been introduced in some Age since the Apostles : name therfore the Age , and immediatly 't is urged , either the Church had assurance , in that Age , all she held was descended lineally , as we spake , from the Apostles , or not : If so , then questionless she held her doctrin upon that maxim ; For it is the only undoubted and self-evident principle : If not , then she wilfully belyed her self , and conspired to damn all her posterity , voluntarily taking up this new Rule of faith and commanding it to be accepted by all the world , as the necessary doctrin of Christ and his Apostles , descended upon the present age by universal Tradition from their Ancestors , and for such to be deliver'd to their children ; and all this against the express evidence of her own conscience . Thus far reaches the argument . He that shall compare this perpetuation of the Church , with the constancy of propagating mankind ; and proportion the love of happiness and natural inclination to truth , ( which is in the superiour part of mankind , and commands powerfully in it ) to the material appetite of procuring corporal succession , and weigh what accidents are able and necessary to interrupt the progress of one and the other , will find the propagation of Religion far stronger and less defectible , then that of mankind ; supposing them once rooted alike in universality and setledness . Since therfore the means of conducting nature to its true and chief end , Felicity , are more principally intended , then those by which it is simply preserv'd in being ; this Contemplator will clearly discern , that if humane nature continue to the last and dreadful day , this succession also of a true Church must be carried on through the same extent of time : there appearing indeed no purpose why the world should endure a minute longer , if this once come to fail ; that part of mankind , which arrives to bliss , being the end why the rest was made , as mankind is the end for which all the other material Creatures are set on work . Again , if a rational discourser should plot in his head how , with condescendence to the weakness of our nature , he might bring mankind to bliss ; and , to this end , plant in it a perpetual and constant knowledg of the true and straight way thither ; & did observe that Man in his immature age is naturally subject to believe , and after his ful growth , tenacious of what he had suck'd in with his milk : could he chuse but see , that to make the Mothers flatter into their Children the first elements of the acquisition of Beatitude , and continually go on nursing them up in the maxims of piety , till their stronger years gave a steddy setledness to their minds ; must needs be the most sweet and connatural way that can be imagin'd , to beget a firm and undoubted assent to those happy principles . If he think on , and chance to light on this truth , that the greatest part of mankind , some through dulness of understanding , some by the distractions of seeking necessaries for their subsistence , or at least conveniences for their accommodation , and others for the diffluence of nature to Pleasures and Vanities , are , to their very departing hour , wholly incapable of searching out their Religion , either by their own contemplation or the learned books of others : I cannot doubt but such a considerer would without the least difficulty or hesitation , conclude that , were it his design to set up a Religion , which he would have constantly and universally propagated , he must of necessity pitch upon this way ; And so , with a resolute and pious confidence pronounce , if God has not already taken this course , certainly he should have done it . To these considerations give my pen leave to add the confession of our Adversaries , who boldly acknowledge the Roman Church has had universal Tradition for the whole body of its faith ever since St. Gregories days ; which is now a thousand years , and very near two parts of the three that Christian Religion has endured . They confess those Doctrins , which are common to us and them , remain in our Church uncorrupted , and have still descended from Father to Son , by vertue of Tradition , since the very times of the Apostles . They will not deny the Ages , betwixt Constantine and St. Gregory , flourisht with an infinity of Persons famous both for piety and learning ; and the Church never more vigilant , never more jealous , being continually alarm'd by such Troops of powerful and subtle Hereticks : so that there is no likelihood , gross errours ( such as Idolatry and Superstition import ) could creep in undiscern'd , in those days . And perhaps , much less betwixt Constantine and the Apostles ; the time being so short that it scarce exceeds the retrospection of those who liv'd with Constantine : At least that age could evidently know what was the faith of Christendom in the age of the Apostles great Grand-children , and they again be certainly assured of the Doctrin of the Apostles disciples , their Grandfathers . Which is an evidence beyond all testimony of writers , that since Constantines time it was known by a kind of self-sight what the Grandchildren of the Apostles held , and it could not be doubted of them but they knew and held the doctrin of the Apostles ; that , I say , in Constantines time , the publike doctrin of Christianity was the doctrin of the Apostles . Besides , the communication of Christians being very difficult and infrequent , during those persecutions ; the contagion also of heresies scatter'd it self slowly among Christians in those times . And here I shall note a ridiculous cavil , very common not only in the mouths of the more rash and shallow Protestants , but even in the writings of many of their gravest and most solemn Doctors , who cry out against the Ignorance of our Church , as the cause of our errors , and yet put the Ages in which they insult , that Frigebat Scriptura cum vetustis Autoribus , some hundreds of years after the time , wherin they acknowledg the doctrins , term'd errours , were already flourishing ; as if they could proceed , from a defect which follow'd them : A slander so palpably absur'd that all the charity I have can scarce perswade me to think they are not blinded rather with malice then ignorance , that dare vent such gross contradictions . And now , having abridg'd as 't were , the whole sense of Rushworths Dialogues concerning Tradition , into this short compendium ; I will apply my pen to answer what exceptions are taken , against either the forme or matter of that Discourse . THE SECOND ENCOUNTER , Defeating three oppositions made against Tradition . THe first objection against the form is , that I put my Adversary to prove his position instead of going about to maintain my own . This they imagin , because I bid them assign the Age ; which they take to be as much as a demand of them to prove that in such a time came in the error : but 't is a plain mistake . For I do not require they should prove the errour began in such an Age ; but only exact of them , for Argument sake , to name the Age in which they find most difficulty for me to conclude , or wherin they conceive the sinnews of my discours will be most slack and feeble : for the force of the main argument is indifferent to any Age they can pitch upon , equally demonstrative in all , and so , by striking at every one , concludes against all . This I say not , any way to disclaim the advantage we Catholicks have , whilst we press our adversary to prove his Thesis , being no less a just then strong and secure retreat ; and which I reserve my self the liberty of retiring to , perhaps , at another time : but now I only urge him to name one Age at hazzard , meerly to give way to the prosecution of the argument ; a Justice I might do for my self , if I would , without his courtesie , and have all the laws of disputation bear me out in it . It is therefore to litle purpose to demand , whether I ask of the first man that held such an opinion , or when it came to be universal ( though the question be plainly of this later , for we hold it was ever so ; ) nor is there any art necessary to answer it , the argument made being indifferent to all . The skill therefore required , is only to know what belongs to the form of demonstrating ; for the most part , indeed , not found in the quaint discourses of Rhetoricians . But the Adversary thinks , when the Question is put concerning a Doctrine's being Vniversal , it must suppose none to hold the contrary opinion ; as if we could not know what is the publick Faith of France , because perhaps a few conceal'd persons may believe somwhat different . Wherin , he reflects not , that Heresie signifies the cleaving to a private opinion : so that , when there were any such in former ages , that very thing made them Hereticks ( how good wits or great learning so ever they had ) if they dissented from the doctrine deliver'd by their forefathers . He presses , Catholiks cannot tell when the communicating of Children began , since St. Austin thinks it an Apostolical Tradition . We answer , we are of that mind too : but with this qualification , that it was a Tradition begun by some Apostles , not all , in some Countries , not all , in some circumstances , not all : And therfore 't was neither superstition to use it , nor sacriledg to leave it off ; how strongly soever the opponent avers one of these two to be unavoydable . The second opposition made against the form is , that 't is a fallacy of that kind , called Soritae , in which the Scepticks found so great difficulty , that they used to press them against the Stoicks and other dogmatists , as insoluble and manifestly demonstrating there was no science . But , to understand the meaning of this objection , the demonstration propos'd is to begin from the Apostles time : and so it must be supposed , that the next Age after the Apostles , in any controversy against new doctrins , examin'd no farther then on which side stood the verdict of the Apostles , wherof they could not be ignorant . The Argument therfore pressed that the next ( that is , the third Age ) must of necessity take the same method against its Novellists , convincing them of falsity , because their doctrine was contrary to that of those who had heard the Disciples of the Apostles speak . And so , since the Tradition of Faith was convey'd from age to age , stil with this caution , that the latter was to believe such a doctrin , because receiv'd from the former , upon this warrant that it descended lineally from Christ in the same manner , to them , as they deliver'd it to their posterity ; it necessarily follows , that this doctrin could not but continue pure even to our present time : unless some age should prevaricate all bounds of truth and nature , and deliver somthing to the following age , as traditionally deriv'd from Christ , which had not been so receiv'd . This argument , so propos'd ( though I know not whether so understood ) seem'd to the opponent like the ratiocination of one Mr. Thinn , a melancholy Philosopher , who perswaded himself , a person might be found that could leap from off Pauls ( for sure he needed a high standing ) to Rome , because 't was possible some man might leap full twenty foot , and no doubt but another somwhat more , and still another more then he , and so without end ; therfore among all , one quick springer would be found , who could make his jump from hence to the Capitol . But certainly he that weigh'd the two arguments , might without extraordinary study , have found there was some difference in their form : Mr. Thinn , being oblig'd to take variety of men undetermined : but this argument engaging only sixteen ages , and peradventure , not needing above six , or in rigour , some three , and those such as have had a real existence , wheras the Worlds durance and latitude are not sufficient to find men enough to justify Mr. Thinns Proces . This I say was obvious enough to any mean understanding , not preoccupated with prejudice against the conclusion . But one , who had understood how Aristotle unwrapped Zeno's fallacies , might easily have known that Infinity it self could not add more then one full foot to Mr. Thinns leapers : if the encrease were made by sub-proportional parts , wherof the first was one half foot ; and if by equal quantities , as Feet or Inches , he would soon come to an end of his addition , unlesse he put mens strength and nimblenesse to be infinite . But to sit Judge of Religion , of eternal bliss and damnation , some curious and unhappy wits dare think requires neither so much indifferency nor reflection as the composition of quantity . Yet I cannot but admire it could scape a piercing ey to discern , that as the consequent of Mr. Thinns discourse is ridiculous and impossible , so that of the proposed demonstration is evident and undeniable . For what ingenuous forehead will deny , but such verities as all the world allows to remain still untainted in the Church of Rome , have descended by this traditionary way to us from Christ ? Wherfore both the possibility and actuality of this way is not only acknowledg'd by the unanimous confession of all parties , but its force and efficacy made evident by the downright violence of reason : all the controversie being meerly about the multitude and sufficiency of the things receiv'd , not the impotency of the means to convey them to us . But , to make an end of this petty Question , I appeal to all Masters , nay even Scholars in Geometry , whether this form of arguing be not the same that Euclid , Archimedes and Apollonius use in their severest demonstrations ? As when Euclid undertakes to demonstrate this plain and elementary Theoreme , that No Circle can touch another in more then one point ; himself acts the part of the Denier , and according to the law of Mathematicks , supposes at random the other point , to see whether the Proposition be maintainable : and if the Contactus in the point assign'd be proved impossible , by an argument applyable to any other that can be offered , the Theoreme remains infallibly demonstrated , and the Rules of that precise and strict Science perfectly comply'd with . The third opposition is drawn out of a conceited impossibility of the case ; and so they demand how can it come to passe that all the Doctors of one age should meet together , to instruct the world of Scholars that are to succeed them in the next ? an action , if not impossible , at least so incredible , as by no means to be aver'd without legitimate Authority , which they say , is wanting : And further , should we undertake , that not only all Doctors , but all men of one age met with the men of the next , to teach them ; it were an enterprize so highly impossible , as not to be thought on even among the wildest capriches of a Romance : yet to so hard straits are we driven , that we must defend the possibility of this later assertion . Which to compasse , we distinguish this word , Together , as capable of signifying an unity either in place or time : and , if the Opponent mean one Age cannot meet another in a Town or great Hall , as Councils use , I am easily perswaded such interviews are impossible ; but if this Assembly needs only the unity of time , I think it will require but a moderate stock of faith to believe , either that men of the same Age live together in that Age , or that Fathers meet with their Children . If then we put all Fathers and Mothers , all Pastors and Teachers to make one Age , and all Children and young persons , who come to be instructed , and afterward outlive their Tutors , to compose the other age ; I see no great impossibility in this position , but a clear one in the contrary . For , I cannot believe the Opponents think , men , since Christs time , start out of mole-hils with clods on their heads , as it seems Empedocles and Horace imagined , and the Toscans of their wise Tages , high Master of their skill in Augury . And this answer cuts off another difficulty , urg'd by certain Speculatists , that , because , in some rude times , they imagine the learned were few , and therfore subject to corruption by hopes or fears , they might more easily be prevail'd with to proclaim a fals Tenet in that Age ; whence , this claim of infallibility would remain broken : But the former answer saves it ; for since neither the great multitude of Instructors , nor instructed persons can meet in any other assembly then that of the whole and open World , all possibility of corruption is evidently avoided . THE THIRD ENCOUNTER , Solving two other Objections against the infallibility of Tradition . THe fourth opposition denys the necessity of assigning any Age wherein an errour may be said to have crept in ; because ( say they ) an errour might begin first in one Country , and insensibly steal over into another , without any notice taken of its novelty , so that there is no time wherin its beginning is discoverable : For proof , they instance in some errour held by divers Hereticks in divers ages ; and tell you , the best Historian knows who was first mentioned to have broacht that errour : wheras perhaps a less diligent or careless Writer may cite some middle or late Author , attributing to him the original invention of that opinion . To this we reply , 't is too desperate an Answer to call a hundred years an insensible time , to suppose all the Pastors stupify'd , and the Doctors asleep for a whole century together . At least , let us ask this fair question , Was there no Doctor or Bishop made it his business to promote that new opinion within a hundred years ? If you say , no ; how could an innovation of any considerable importance get footing which had no eminent patron ? If you say yes ; see whether that was not the occasion of impugning all heresies , when extraordinary persons divulged them : I , but you 'l say , it was so transcendent a Doctor that he overtopt all . Here , I confess my weakness : for if some sky-faln Angel , indeed , should come , with tongue and pen more then humane , I doubt not but he might perhaps endanger a great part of the Church : but , if we make our comparison only betwixt men ; who ever had the like reputation in the Greek Church , as Origen ? yet he was condemned by the same Church . Who was more eloquent then Eusebius Caesariensis ? more cunning then Eusebius Nicomediensis ? more subtle then Arius ? Let us add a faction so powerful , as to make ten Councils , to number three hundred Bishops ; yet , notwithstanding all this , the Arians were condemned . The Dragon drew but a third part of the Stars ; and the Apostle has armd us , even against the treachery of Angels ; charging that , in spight of them , we cleave fast to what we have receiv'd , to what was Preach'd to us , that is , to Tradition : For rely but on what , in memory of our own age , the Church has universally held , and deliver'd , as from Christ , and no subtlety of men or Angels can make you mistake . Yet , Let it be supposed , some unparallel'd Brain had the power to make a doctrin universal ; could this stand with the still way of creeping in insensibly ? Is not this position , that a Doctor was so great , & took so much pains to divulge his opinion , wrote so many Books in defence of it , that he overcame all opposers , and at last made it universal ; and yet all this while the new doctrin stole in unawares , the Pastors of the Church never dreaming any such thing : is not this as very a Bull as to say , an Army shot off all their Attillery , that the Enemy might not discover where they lay ? or to do , as is reported of an acquaintance of mine , who being in good company , to ride through a Town , where he was afraid to be taken notice of , at his entrance set spurs to his horse , holding his Cane straight before him , and Trumpeted Tararara Tararara the whole length of the Town ? Nevertheless , since 't is for our side ( says the Zelot ) 't is an invincible demonstration . But we desire leave to consider one point farther ; In what times came in the errours , our Adversaries so loudly complain of ? see whether they be not those ages when there were great quarrels about innovations encroaching on the Church , and multitudes of exceptions taken : so that , had any side entertain'd a new errour , not common to both parties , especially if the novelties were any way notable , they could not have been pass'd over without mutual contradictions or upbraidings . The doctrines therfore which in those times pass'd unreprehended , and were currantly admitted among all parties , as being common to them all , without question were not Errata , sed Tradita . Whence , certainly it must needs appear a manifest folly , to think any errour could run through the Church so uncontrol'd , as to gain , without the least sign of opposition , an universality : and much like the story , that the great Turk , with an Army of three or four hundred thousand men , should steal upon Germany by night and take all the good fellows so fast asleep that not a man should escape , nor so much as a Goos gaggle to wake the drowsy neighbours , and , having thus silently run over the Empire , should pass into France ; and thence into Spain , and still catch them all napping without the least notice or resistance : wherof , if any slow and dull heart should doubt , as seeming indeed somwhat an improbable story , the reporter should immediatly prove all with a why not ? since the Greeks had surpriz'd Troy so , and perhaps some other great Captain one single Town or Garrison . Besides , if we venture to throw away a little faith on so extravagant a fable ; the action will still remain unpossible to be conceal'd . Who shall hinder the Conqueror from proclaiming such unparalleld victories , to applaud himself and terrifie the rest of the world ? who can forbid his souldiers to Chronicle their own valours , and every-where boast such un-heard of exploits ? Certainly , were there no Catholick testimonies of these late unhappy divisions from the Church , yet would succeeding ages find evidence enough ( as to the matter of fact ) even in the writings of the Reformers themselvs . How often do their Books insult o're the blindness of their Predecessors , and triumph in the man of God Martin Luther , and the quicker light Jo. Calvin , as first discoverers of their new-found Gospel ? can we think it possible distracted Europe should blot out of her memory the sad effects of schism and heresy , before the tears they have caus'd be wiped from her eys ? for my part , I am confident our once happy Island will never forget the graceless disorders of Henry the hights unfortunate intemperance , though there were not one English Catholick left in the world , to remember them by the smart he endures ever since . Add to all this , the points , wherin Protestants accuse us , are the most palpably absurd positions that can fall into a Christians head ; as , making Gods of Saints or Statues , which were the dotages of the basest sort of Pagans . Nor is the example of errours often sprung and often quell'd again , of any advantage to the Opponent . For our question concerns opinions remaining till this day , and by himself , supposed to have gaind the mastery of the Church , and never fail'd since their beginning : because all doctrins , which appear to have a being before any age the Adversary can name , are thereby evidently proved perpetual Traditions ; especially when the Authors were such as lived in Communion with the Catholik Church then extant , and remain'd in veneration with the Church succeeding . Methinks also since the opposer maintains it was more then a whole Age in working it self up to this universality , if the errour were gross , it must without doubt have been a long time in one Country , before it passed into another ; else we shall scarce find a reason why it became not general in a shorter period of years ; and so it would easily appear , until such an age that new doctrin was never heard of : and in every Country the beginnings would be mentioned by the Historians and other writers : as , who came out of Greece into France to plant Images , who first introduced the Priests power of absolution , who invented the doctrine of preferring the judgment of the Church before our own private interpretation of Scripture ; all which we see exactly perform'd against every considerable Heresy , a minute and punctual account being stil upon Record , who were the original contrivers , who the principal abettors , where they found patronage , where opposition , How long they lived , and when they died . To evade this reason , is fram'd the next crimination , by saying what is answer'd has its probability , if the errours laid to our charge were contrary to Christian doctrine : But they only pretend to accuse us of superfaetations , or false and defective additions to the Faith first planted ; which excrescencies , only , the Reformers seek to take away . And , though it be manifest , when they come to charge us in particular , they instance in doctrines substantially opposite to the Faith of Christ , as Superstition and Idolatry , could their calumnies be justify'd against us : yet , because this objection civilly renounces such harsh and uncharitable language , let us see what may be intended by Superfaetations . Either the disliked additions are of truths , or of falsities . If , of truths , we expect they would demonstrate who has forbidden us to learn and advance our knowledg in Christian Religion , or matters belonging to it . Did God give his Law to Beasts , that have no discourse nor capacity , by joyning two revealed truths to arrive at the discovery of a third ? Again , where is it prohibited for the Doctour and Preacher to know more then the Ideot and old wife ? What fault then can even the proud and peevish humour of this age find in this point ? If Hereticks will raise dust , and obscure the clearest articles of Christian faith , and that so maliciously , as without setling some further explication , the people are in danger of being perverted : is it a sin to establish such defences and Ramparts against encroaching errours ? If the addition be of falsities ; let us examin how the Opposer knows they are false ? If he reply , because they are contrary to clear Scripture : then they are also contrary to that Faith which deliver'd Scripture to be true . If the points be not against Scripture ; either they crosse some known Article of Faith , or only the Principles of naturall reason . If they be purely objects of natural reason ( though truths ) they belong not so to Religion , as to be accounted Articles of Faith : if they contradict some other fore-taught Article , then the Argument before explicated ( concerning the infallibility of Tradition , and the creeping in of Errours against it ) returns to its force . If neither of these , why are they false , or upon what grounds condemned ? But peradventure he excepts not against the Truths , but the obligation to believe and profess them . Admitting then the additional points to be , in themselvs , true ; why will not the Opposer assent to them ? has he a demonstration against them ? No , for then they could not be true . Has he such Arguments , that nothing opposite is equivalent to their eminent credibility ? No ; for , setting aside demonstration , no argument can be comparable to the Churches Authority . The reason therfore , if the inward thoughts be faithfully sifted , will at length appeare no other , then the preferring his own Opinion before the judgement of the Church : which being the effect of an obstinate and malepert pride , makes no legitimate excuse for not believing . THE FOURTH ENCOUNTER . That unlearned Catholiks rely upon the infallibility of Tradition . THe next exception is of main importance ; for it undermines the demonstration at the very root , denying that the Church of Rome relys on Tradition : and having divided the believers into learned and unlearned , first undertakes to prove the unlearn'd not to be grounded on Tradition ; at least , not for their whole Faith. For , if a question arise never thought on before , and once a Council determine the Controversie , that decree is accepted , as if it had come from Christ by Tradition ; and all professe a readiness to obey , and therfore are like to perform their word , if occasion be offerd . Besides , in Catechisms and instructions , the Common-people are not taught , that the doctrine comes handed down to them from the Apostles . In Sermons , we see , when any proposition of difficulty or concernment is treated , proofs are alleag'd out of Scripture and ancient Fathers : a practise even the fathers themselvs continually observe , who , having propos'd a point , are ready to adde , it is not they alone that teach this doctrin , but the Apostles or Christ , or some renouned Father ; never mentioning Tradition , unlesse to oppose or disable it , when some Hereticks have laid claim to it , as the Quartadecimans , Chyliasts , Communicants of Infants , and the like . The charge I confess is fierce ; let us see what powder it bears , what shot . We agree , the Church comprehends both learned and unlearned , and so are bound to maintain that both sorts rely on Tradition . As for the first objection then , concerning the readiness to embrace a Councils definition , with the same assent , as if the truth were descended by Tradition ; I can either and indifferently grant or deny it : Since , if I please to grant it , I have this secure retreat , that a conditional proposition has no force , unless the condition be possible : and for the possibility of the condition , I distinguish the subject ; which may be matter of Practice and Obedience , or a speculative proposition . Of the first I can allow the assent to be the same ; that is , an equal willingness to observe it : Of the second , I deny it ever was or can be , that a Council should define a question otherwise then by Tradition ; Therefore , to rely on the Councils definition taks not away , but confirms the relying on Tradition . This , if need were , I could easily justifie , by the expresse proceedings of all the principal Councils . Thus the condition having never been put , nor supposed ever will be , all this Argument rests solely on the Objectors credit , and is with as much ease rejected as it was proposed . Now should I chuse ( according to my above reserv'd liberty ) to deny such equality of assent ; the Opponent has offerd no proof , and so the quarrel is ended : for though I could produce instances to the contrary , I think it not fit to multiply questions when the argument can be solved with a simple denial . But how the Opponent can justify the second branch of his exception , that in Catechisms this doctrin is not taught , I am wholly ignorant . As far as my memory will serve me , I never heard the Creed explicated , but , when the Catechist came to the Article of the Catholick Church , he told them how Catholick signify'd an universality of place and time ; and that , for this title of Catholick , we were to rely on her testimony . Likewise , in the word Apostolick , he noted that the Apostles were the founders of the Church , and her doctrin theirs , as being first receiv'd from them and conserv'd by the Church ever since ; and that for this reason we were to believe her Authority . Thus you see , that famous phrase of the Colliers faith is built on this very principle we maintain . True it is , Catechists do not ordinarily descend to so minute particularities , as to tel ignorant people whether any position may be exempt from this general Law : But then we also know the rule , Qui nihil excipit , omnia includit . Sermons ( upon which the third instance is grounded ) are of another nature ; their intention being , not so much literally to teach the Articles of Christian doctrin , as to perswade and make what is already believ'd sink into the Auditory , with a kind of willingness & easiness , that their faith be quickned into a principle of action to govern their lives , the principal end perhaps for which the Scripture was deliver'd and recommended to us . Therfore , neither the common practice , nor proper design or use of Sermons reaches home , to make us understand on what grounds the hearts of Catholicks rely ; who after all disputations , retire themselvs to this safe guard , To believe what the Catholik Church teaches ; as none can be ignorant that has had the least convers with such Catholiks as profess not themselvs Divines . For the last period of this objection , where the Fathers are brought in to cry out against Tradition , and Hereticks made the sole pretenders to that title : 't is a bare assertion , without so much as a thin rag of proof to cover it ; of which , I believe , hereafter , we shall have particular occasion to discourse more largely . Thus cannot all the diligence I am able to use find any ground of difficulty in the belief of the unlearned , but that assuredly their faith is establisht on Tradition , if they rely on the Church as it is Catholick and Apostolick ; which all profess , from the gray hair to him that but now begins to lisp his Creed . THE FIFTH ENCOUNTER That Catholick Divines rely on the same infallibility of Tradition . T is time now to come to the second part , and see what is objected against the learneder sort and the long Robe's Resolution of their faith into Tradition : And first is brought on the stage a couple of great Cardinals , Perron and Bellarmin ; the former saying , out of St. Austin , that the Trinity , Freewill , Penance , and the Church were never exactly disputed , before the Arians , Novatians , Pelagians and Donatists : Whence is infer'd that , as more was disputed , so more was concluded ; therfore more known , and consequently not all deriv'd by Tradition . But if we should answer , that disputing , betwixt Catholicks and Hereticks , is , on the Catholick part , no other then proving and defending those points which were deriv'd by Tradition , and found in Christian action and behaviour , this argument were cut up by the roots , and all pretence and colour of it taken away : Which is the very truth of the business : this being inseparably the difference betwixt Heresy and Catholicism , that when those perverse novelties first peep out of their dark grots , the Catholick Religion securely possesses the World ; and upon such opposition is at first surpriz'd , and the Divines , perhaps , put to cast about for plausible defences and grounds to satisfy unstable heads , who easily conceit themselvs wiser then their forefathers , and scorn authority , unless reason proportion'd to their capacity or humour marshal it in . Nevertheless , because disputing cannot chuse but bring to light some deductions , consequent to the first & principally-defended Position ; I shall not deny the Church may come to know somwhat , which haply before she never reflected on . But then those new truths belong to the science we call Theology , not to Faith ; and , even for those , the Church rely's on Tradition , as far as they themselvs emerge from doctrins deliver'd by Tradition : so that the truth attested by the learned Cardinal out of St. Austin , is , that , by much canvasing , more cleer proofs and answers are discovered , or more ample Theological science concerning such mysteries , acquir'd . Bellarmin is brought in excusing Pope Iohn 22. from being an Heretick , though he held no souls were admitted to the vision of God , before the day of Judgment ; because the Church had not as yet defin'd any thing concerning it : I confess , many more might be produc'd deprehended in the like actions ; and , before all , St. Austin excusing St. Cyprian on the same score . Now , to draw a conclusion from hence , this is to be added , that surely if there had been a Tradition , neither the Pope nor St. Cyprian could be ignorant of it , and therfore not excusable upon that account . But , in truth , I wonder this point is no harder press'd ; for , if any would take pains and look into our Schoolmen , they might find very many of them maintain , that Tradition is necessary only for some points not clearly express'd in Scripture : whence it seems to follow they build not the whole body of their Faith upon Tradition . For satisfaction of this difficulty , I must note , there is a vast difference betwixt relying on Tradition , and saying or thinking we do so . The Platonists and Peripateticks are divided about the manner of vision ; Aristotle teaching , that the object works upon the eye ; Plato , that the eye sends out a line of Spirits or rays to the object : Yet nothing were more ridiculous then to affirm , the Platonists saw in one fashion , the Peripateticks in another . Some ( as I fear may be experienc'd in too many of our modern Scepticks ) are of this desperate and unreasonable opinion , that we have no maxims evident by Nature , but contradictories may be true at once ; the rest of Philosophers think otherwise : yet we see , in all natural and civil actions , both sides proceed , as if those maxims were evident and irresistable . So likwise , there is a wide distance betwixt these two questions what a man relys on for his assent of Faith , & what he says or thinks he relys on . Look but among the Protestants or other Sectaries , they are al taught to answer , they rest wholly on the Bible , the Bible , for their Faith ; but nine parts of ten seek no farther then the Commands of their own Church : that is , all those who either cannot read or make it not their study to be cunning in the Scriptures , or have so much modesty as to know themselvs unable to resolve those many intricate controverted points by the bare letter of the Text ; who , perhaps are not the less numerous , but certainly the more excusable part of Protestants . Whence , farther , it is clear that ; to ask on what a private person grounds his belief , and on what , the Church ? is yet a more different question ; especially , if you enquire into what he thinks the Church resolvs her faith . For , supposing the Church , as to some verity , should rely on Scripture or Councils ; a Divine may know the Church holds such a position , and yet ( though of a just size of learning ) not know , or , at least , not remember on what ground she maintains it : and in that case , no doubt but his faith stands on the same foundation with that of the Church ; yet he cannot , perhaps , suddenly tel , whether it be resolved into Scripture or Councils . To conclude therfore this demand , whether Bellarmin himself rely'd on Tradition , for all points ? has not the least resemblance with this other , whether he thought the Church did so ? And , to come yet closer to the question ; 't is evident , every believer , under that notion , as a believer , is unlearned and ignorant : For , as such , he rests upon his teacher , who in our present case is , undoubtedly , the Church as Catholick and Apostolick ; so far , therfore , the Collier and Bellarmin depend on the same Authority . As for the other part of the interrogatory , on what he thinks the Church rely's for her doctrin ? it may be enquir'd either in common or particular . In common ( relating generally to the body and substance of Catholick doctrin , ) there is no doubt , among Catholicks , but their reliance is upon Tradition , this being the main profession of great and smal , learned and unlearned , that Christian Religion is and has been continued in our Church , since the days of our Saviour , the very same faith the Apostles taught all Nations , and upon that score , they receive it : Speaking thus therfore , no Catholick makes any scruple but Religion comes to him by Tradition . There remains now , only , what learned men think , concerning the ground wheron the Church rely's , in some particular cases : which we have already shewn concerns not their private belief , as 't is the foundation of their spiritual life ; for , so , they rely on the Church , and what the Church rely's on : and by consequence , it will prove but a matter of opinion in an unnecessary question belonging purely to Theology , not Faith , whatever is said in it . Whence Divines in this may vary without any prejudice to the Church or salvation , either in private or in order to Government ; seeing the main foundation is surely establisht , that every believer , as such , rely's on the Church immediatly . This difficulty therfore is so far resolv'd , that it little imports what opinion Bellarmin or any other private Doctor holds in the point : since it follows not that the Church , or any particular member therof , rely's on such a ground ; no not Bellarmin himself , though he conceive , in some points , the Church rely's on Scripture or Councils . But , since St. Austin marches in the head of this Troop for defence of St. Cyprian , let us proceed with more diligence and respect in reconciling the difficulty . We are to remember , 't is a different question , to ask Whether an opinion be Heresy ? and , Whether the Maintainer be an Heretick ? the opinion becomes heretical by being against Tradition , without circumstances ; but the Person is not an Heretick , unless he knows there is such a Tradition . Now , St. Cyprians case was about a doctrin included in a practice , which , he saw well , was the custome of the African , but knew not to be so of the universal Church , till some congregation of the whole Christian World had made it evident . And herein consists the excuse St. Austin alledges for St. Cyprian ; 't is true , I have no assurance this Apology can be alledged for John 22. but another perhaps may , that the multitude of Fathers ( which he conceiv'd to be on his side ) might perswade him , the opposite opinion could not be a constant Tradition . There remains only Bellarmins excuse to be justify'd , which is not of so great moment : Divines helping themselvs by the way that occurrs best to them , and missing in such reasons , without any scandal to their neighbours . One of these two solutions will generally satisfie all such objections as are drawn from some fathers mistakes against the common Faith. For nothing can be more certain , then , if any Father had known the doctrin , contrary to his errour , to have been universally taught in the Catholik Church , by a derivation from their ancestors , beyond the memory of any beginning , he would readily without dispute have submitted to such an Authority , and so much the sooner , as he being neerer the Fountain , could less doubt that the stream , of which he saw no other rise , reach'd home to the Spring-head . This therfore is evident , that whoever erred , knew nothing of such a Tradition , whencesoe're that ignorance took its root : the severall causes of which depend upon the several cases of their mistakes , here not pressed , and therfore not examin'd . THE SIXTH ENCOUNTER , Disabling three other Arguments brought against Tradition . THe seventh objection pretends , not only different , but opposite Traditions might be deriv'd from the Apostles . And this they support with these two crutches : one consists in a demurrer , that the contrary is not proved : the other in an Instance , that it plainly hapned so in the case of the Quartadecimani , who inherited from St. John a certain custom , which was condemned by a practice deriv'd from some other Apostles . But the weaknesse of this objection appears by its very proposal : For , since all Catholicks , when they speak of Tradition deliberately and exactly , define it to be a Doctrine universally taught by the Apostles , we may safely conclude , where two Apostles teach differently , neither is Tradition : And that this word , universally , may not seem , by slight of hand , cog'd into the definition , on purpose to take away this objection ; the necessity of it is evident : because , all that weare the name of Christian unanimously agreeing that , in point of truth , one Apostle could not contradict another ; wherever two such Traditions are possible to be found , it absolutely follows , no point of truth is engaged : An inference expresly verified in the example of the Quartadecimans ; their contention being meerly about a Ceremony , not an Article of Faith. Wherfore , only indifferent and unnecessary practises are subjects of such a double Tradition : and , by consequence , such Traditions are not of Christian beliefe , or concerning matters , here , in controversy ; this very definition rather directly excluding them . The eighth Argument seems to take its rise from our own confessions ; telling us , We acknowledge some points of Faith to have come in later then others , and give the cause of it , that the Tradition ( whereon such points rely ) was , at the beginning , a particular one , but so that yet at the time when it became universal , it had a testimony even beyond exception , by which it gain'd such a general acknowledgment . The example of this is in certain Books of Scripture , as the Epistle to the Hebrews , and the Apocalyps ; whereof , in St. Jerom's time , the Greek Churches refus'd the one , and the Latin the other ; yet now both have prevaild into an universal reception . To which I return this clear answer : 't is the nature of things acted , ( that depend on Physical and mutable causes , ) to have divers degrees in divers parts , according to the unequall working of the Causes : and so , Christ having deliver'd , by the hands of his Apostles , two things to his Church , his Doctrin , as the necessary and substantial aliment thereof , and his Scriptures , ad abundantiam ; it was convenient , the strength of Tradition , for one , should far exceed its strength for the other ; yet so , that even the weaker should not fail to be assured and certain . Upon this reason , the Doctrin was deliver'd to all the Apostles , and by them to the whol community of Christians : the Scriptures , to some particular person or Church , ( yet such whose credit was untainted ) and from them , by degrees , to be spread through the whol Church , and communicated to the Pastors , in the Books themselvs ; to the people , by their Pastors reading and explications . For , who does not know , before Printing was invented , the Bible was not every mans money ? Whence it appears , Scriptures are derived to us by a lower degree of Tradition , then that of Catholik doctrin ; and consequently our Faith and acceptance due to them is not of so high a nature as what we are bound to in respect of doctrin . For the sense of Scripture is to be judged by the doctrin : as the Church and custom of Antiquity teaches us : alwaies commanding and practising , that no man exercise his wits in interpreting the holy Scripture against the receiv'd Faith of the Church ; as , in all matters of science , they who are Masters in the Art , judge the text of Books written upon such subjects by their unwritten skil and practical experience . And here I would willingly ask , what such Protestants as object this to us , can answer for themselvs ? since they directly professe not to know Scripture by the Spirit , and therfore must necessarily rely on Tradition ; especially those who take for their rule to accept only such Books for Canonical , as were never doubted of : for they cannot deny , but the Scriptures were receiv'd in one Church before another ; as the Epistles of St. Paul , St. John , or St. Marks Gospel , &c. and how do they admit the Apocalyps , so long refused by the Greek Churches , whom they use to prefer before the Latin ? But they presse us farther ; that , if a particular Tradition became universal , this depended on the Logick of those Ages , to discern what testimony was beyond exception . I demand what signifies Logick ? do they mean common sense , sufficient to know three and four make seven ; or wit enough to comprehend and manage with a just degree of discretion , the ordinary occurrences in humane actions ? If they do ; I must confess it depends on Logick : For I cannot think God Almighty deliver'd the Scriptures to Apes or Elephants , who have a meer imitation of reason in their outward carriage ; but to Men , that have truly understanding , and a capacity of evidence within their Souls . But , if they take Logick for an ability to discourse beyond the reach of ordinary prudence , and that human evidence which governs our lives ; I see no occasion of expecting any such Logick in our present question . The ninth attempt consists in a diligent survey of our Fortifications , to spy out some breach , or weaker place , by which errour may creep into the Church . This I cannot call an Argument ; for none are so unwise as to make such a consequence : It may be , therfore 't is ; unlesse they bring strong proof of this necessity in some particular instance , that may shew it to be an exception from the common maxim , à posse ad esse non valet consequentia : And yet , in this discourse , I find not so much as the very posse , which I thus declare . If any should deny that George could leap over Pauls-steeple ; and a quaint Oratour ( to maintain the affirmative ) should largely discourse , how the rise of the last footing , the help of a good staffe , the cast of his body , and many such circumstances give advantage to the leap ; but never think of comparing these with the height of the Steeple : no sensible person would say , he had proved the possibility of performing such a wild and extravagant enterprize . So , he that discourses at large , how errours use to slide into mans life , without comparing the power of the causes of errour to the strength of resisting , which consists in this principle , Nothing is to be admitted , but what descends by Tradition ; as also , without considering the heat and zeal stil preserv'd alive in the Churches bowels from the great fire of Pentecost : says no more towards proving an errour 's overrunning the Church , then the Oratour we exemplified , for Georges leaping over the Steeple . Wherfore this attempt is so far from the business , it deservs not the honour of being accounted an Argument . Yet , because we compar'd the propagation of the Catholique Faith , to the perpetuation of Human kind , let us propose the like discours against it : and say , that in Affrick or the Land of Senega , there are under earth , great mines of Arsnick : Whereof one may at some time or other , vapour a contagious smoak , which , encountring with a strong wind from the South , may breed so great a Plague in all the North Countries , that none can escape it ; and hereupon presently conclude , that all , on this side the Line , are quite dead , and those who seem to live and discourse are but phantasms and have nothing of real in them : though I believe the instances ( brought in , for declaration of so groundless a conceit ) may seem better to deserve that name . THE SEVENTH ENCOUNTER . Answering the Greeks and some Divines , who object new Beliefs to the Catholick Church . THe first is of the Greeks ; Hieremie Nilus and Barlaam , who profess to stand to Tradition and the first seaven General Councils , and can be no way disprov'd , say's the objector , unless by what shall be as forcible against the Catholick cause . But truly , this instance is so lame , it needs a new making , before it be answered : For the Author expresses not in what points of difference betwixt us and them , he intends to urge it . If , about shavings or fastings and the like ; we shal have no quarrel against him ; if about the Procession of the holy Ghost , I doubt he will find himself entangled in an equivocation , betwixt the matter and manner of that mystery . However , that all arguments against them will serve against us , is but the Authors liberal addition , without any proof or means to guess at it . That they accuse us , to corrupt Tradition by sowing tares among it , has two parts ; one justify's my plea , that we rely on Tradition , since they charge us with endeavouring to corrupt , not disclaim it : the other , that we do indeed corrupt it , is only said not proved ; and farther shews that the plea of the Greeks is non-Tradition ; alleadging only this , that their Fathers do not deliver the doctrin of the procession of the Holy Ghost , not that they say the contrary ; which clearly demonstrates , there are no opposite Traditions between them and us . As little force has the Note cited out of Tertullian , to prove that he thought more was to be believ'd , then what was drawn from antiquity ; because he was content private men might begin good customs in their own houses : For sure he could not believe , that omnis fidelis could constituere for the whole Church , or even for his neighbours house . So that we need a great deal of Logick to draw from this remark , the creeping of an errour into the Church : not a word being so much as intimated , that this good custom should be against what was already receiv'd ; which had been enough to make it rejected , and not comprehended , in Tertullians known judgment . There is another instance , strongly urg'd and largly dilated ; but , if I guess right , of so much less credit , the more 't is opened . It is out of a history by one Wadding , an Irish man , concerning two Treaties of two Kings of Spain with two Popes , to tear from them a definition for the Immaculateness of our Ladies Conception . ( I follow an Authors words who has read the book , and it seems found a great violence in the carriage of the business , which made him express it , by the word tearing . ) Who this Wadding is I know not , for I have heard of more then one ; but whether this be any of them , I am totally ignorant , having never seen the Book nor any other signs by which to discover the Author . Out of this Book they collect three arguments : One from Waddings testimony ; another from the State of the question he handles : a third , from his practice , joyntly with the practice of divers others of the same degree . For the first , I am desirous notice should be taken of the Authors condition ; When he wrote this book , he was Secretary to the Bishop of Carthagena , and He his Kings Ambassador , to move the Pope to define our Ladies Conception without original sin ; and , in solliciting this , to use an extraordinary importunity : Wherin I see two circumstances that concern the qualification of his Book ; One , that he was to act a business of great heat ; and , if his zeal were not conformable to the eagerness of his senders , he was like to have little thanks for his pains ; The second that he was Secretary to an Ambassador , by which he had priviledg to say and publish Dicenda Tacenda , whether they were his own opinions or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , so they any way advanc'd his cause . Now , this encouraged Secretary undertakes to affirm , that many things have been defined against the opinions of some Fathers ; and in the present case , he says , peradventure , it has been defin'd , that our Lady was free from all actual sin : He adds , the validity of Hereticks Baptism , the beatifical vision before the day of Judgment , the spirituality of Angels , the souls being immediatly created , and not ex traduce , the Assumption of our Lady , and her delivery without pain . To Wadding we may add Salmeron , who has the boldness to say Doctores quo juniores eo perspicaciores . Poza is no les audacious , in citing opinions defin'd against the Fathers . Erasmus says myriades Articulorum proruperunt . Fisher , Bishop and Martyr , and as learned as any in his age , consents that Purgatory was brought in by little and little : and Indulgences , after men had trembled a while at the torments of Purgatory . Alphonsus de Castro puts , in the rank of newly receiv'd Doctrines , Indulgences , Transubstantiation , and the procession of the holy Ghost . But beyond all , is the fact of Clement the eighth , a grave and wise Pope ; who , desirous to end the controversy between the Dominicans and the Jesuits accused by them of Pelagianism , neither sent for learned men , by way of a Council , to know what their Forefathers had taught them , nor examin'd with which of them the purest Ages sided : but refer'd the whole matter to what St. Austin said : and so it had been defin'd , had not Cardinal Perrons advice prevail'd . And St. Austin was so various in his own opinion , that he knew not himself what he held : wheras , before him all the ancients sided with the Jesuits . Thus far that Book . I know this term Defining , is frequently used by our Divines in matters of the Churches determinations ; nor do I see any great inconvenience in the word , if the thing be understood , to wit ▪ that Defining is nothing els but the acknowledging and clearing a Tradition , from the dirt and rubbidg opposers had cast upon it . For the rest , that some Fathers have had their eys ty'd , in particular points , so far as not to see the force of Tradition , by which the Church had notice of the truth of some position , is a thing not to be doubted . And , if it were fit or necessary , I could bring instances of bold Divines , in our days , so blinded by arguments , that they see not the light of Tradition in some particular questions ; and so , the expressions only changed , hold condemned heresies : So short is the sphear of our discours , if not directed by a carefulness to wel-imploy our Logick , or by a secret grace steering us towards truth beyond the ability of our Reason . But , what consequence any can draw , out of these sayings , against Tradition , I understand not : unless this be taken for a Maxim , that every one must necessarily know , of a special point , that it is deriv'd by Tradition , because really 't is so ; an inconsequence , I hope already sufficiently demonstrated . Now , if these two can stand together , that , truly the Church has a Tradition for a point , and nevertheless some learned man may be ignorant of it ; this argument has no force at all . As to the positions he cites for newly adopted into the family of faith ; he fairly shews the priviledg he and his Master had to speak any thing that sounded to his purpose , and let his adversaries take care whether true or no : For , nothing is more clear then that the validity of Baptism by Hereticks was a Tradition , and decided by it : so , the Beatifical vision of the Saints before the day of judgment , the spirituality of Angels , are not yet held matters of Faith , but only Theological conclusions ; as likewise , the souls being concreated to the perfecting of the body : Then for the blessed Virgin 's being free from actual sin , as also her Assumption , and her delivery without pain ( which others add ) these either are known by Tradition , or not matters of Catholick Faith : and so , no ways advance our Adversaries pretences . For Alphonsus de Castro , 't is plain by his very expressions , either he means the manner only , or at most some circumstances unessential to the things , and therefore certainly not cited without some violence offerd to his words . Poza is a condemned Authour : and Salmeron's saying not to be followed , or to be understood ( as it is , whence he took it ) in such things as later disputes have beaten out more plainly ; Erasmus was learned in Criticism , and one whom , if not others , his very English Patrons , Warham of Canterbury , Fisher of Rochester , and More in the Chancery , exempt from all calumny of being a desertor of the ancient Faith : besides his own Books , especially his Epistle Ad Fratres inferioris Germaniae , by effects demonstrate his loyalty ; whatever bad impressions a certain liberty of practising his wit too freely may have made in some even great and eminent persons . But , what he speaks concerning Articles of Faith , he either took from the scoldings of some ignorant Divines , ( who are ready to call every word , they found not in their books , when they were Schollers , Heresie ) or else because , truly , he understood not what belong'd to Decisions in that kind . There remain two Authorities really considerable ; one of the holy Bishop Fisher ; the other , of the prudent Pope . As for the first , I conceive there is a great equivocation through want of care and warinesse in distinguishing . For , let us take either the Council of Florence or Trent , in which we have the Churches sense concerning both Purgatory and Indulgences ; and see whether the holy Bishop says any of the points , those Councils defin'd , are either denied by the Greeks , or brought in by private revelations or new interpretations of Scripture . For , how could he be ignorant , that the Greeks had agreed to the Latin Church , about the definition of Purgatory , in the Council of Florence ; or forget himself so far , as not to remember a publick practice , Indulgences , in all the ancient Church , for remission of the Penal injunctions laid upon sinners ? Besides , he says , the Latins did not receive Purgatory at once , but by little and little . Whence 't is evident , by the name Purgatory , he means not only so much as is established in the Council , but the manner also and circumstances were introduced by revelations of private persons and argumentations of Divines . The like he expresses of Indulgences , saying , They began , after men had trembled a while at the pains of purgatory . Whence it is plain , he contented not himself with the precise subject of the Councils Definitions , or the sense of the Church ; but included also such interpretations as Divines give of them . So that , by speaking in general terms , and not distinguishing the substance of Purgatory , from the Accidents and dressing of it ; as likewise , in Iudulgences , not separating what the Church has alwaies practiz'd from the interpretative extention which Divines attribute to them ; he is mistaken to suppose new Articles of Faith may be brought into the Church . Neither imports it , that he uses those words , No Orthodox man now doubts ; for that 's true of such Conclusions as are term'd Theological and generally receiv'd in the Schools , yet are not arriv'd to the pitch of making a point of Catholick belief : besides , he expresses himself , that this generality extends no farther , then That there is a Purgatory . In Clement the eighth's action , the main point is to consider , on what grounds he sought to establish the Definition he went about to make . And , upon the immediate step , we both joyntly stand ; to wit , that it was to finde out , whether parties opinion was conformable to St. Austin : But , if I mistake not , my Adversaries make not the same apprehension of it that I do . They seem to take St. Austin for one Doctour , peradventure a great one , peradventure the chief , but yet only one : I apprehend him as the leading Champion of the Church in the Question of Grace ; whence it follows , that the Doctrin of St. Augustin was the Doctrin of all those Catholick Writers , by whose demonstrations and authority the Pelagians were condemned ; that is , it was the faith of the Church in that age , and consequently , which the Church continued ever after . Father , because St. Austin neither had the Authority to bring in a new Faith , nor pretends it ; but both proves his dictrin to have descended from his Forefathers , and found Pelagius his opinion condemned , before he medled with it , by some Council ; that is , by the apprehensions of the then present Church ; and , as it spread from Country to Country , was stil found contrary to the receiv'd doctrin , every where planted in their hearts before Pelagius contradicted it . Therefore , I say , I cannot but esteem , that , in the point of Grace , it is all one to say , the Doctrin of St. Austin , and the Doctrin of the Apostles , planted by them and continued to St. Austins daies , illustrated by him , and transmitted to his posterity , even to our present time . If this be true , ( as no Catholik can deny , nor prudent person doubt but we esteem it so ) Pope Clement had great reason to endeavour the decision of that question by the Authority of St. Austin : since the doctrin of St. Austin was evidently the faith of that Age ; and the faith of that Age the faith of the Christian Church , from the Apostles to us . But we have another quarrel about St. Austins doctrin , that It is so uncertain , himself knew not what he held . Nor do I wonder such a thought should fall into the head of a Gentleman-Divine ; especially in a Liberty of wit , to censure , without the least respect or reverence of Antiquity : But I tremble to hear , that some ( of whom we are in justice as wel as charity bound to expect more staydness and Religion ) seem so wedded to their own Sect , as to mutter the same . My answer , I believe , is already understood . I say therefore , such as have made it a principal employment of their lives , to be perfect in St. Augustin ; those who with great attention had read his Polemical Treatises against the Pelagians , ( as I take it ) some five and thirty times , were of another mind : And so are all those who at this day study him , not to make him speak what they think , but to make themselvs speak what he thinks . But this question transiit in rem judicatam , since , when it was handled at Rome before the Congregations , when both oppositions and defences were solemnly made by the proof of present books , when the maintainainers of the opinion accus'd of Pelagianism , were the choicest wits and ancientest Scholers could be pickt out of that so famed Society : nevertheless , almost in every Congregation the sentence of St. Austin was judged to be against them ; as is evident , both out of the printed Compendium of the Acts of those Congregations , and the very manuscript Acts themselves , extant at this day . But , let us hear the Pope himself speak . Upon the 8. of July was held the second Congregation ; His Holiness began with these words . Nos personaliter vidimus congeriem locorum , quam vos , qui Molinam defenditis , induxistis ex Augustino ; & nullus inventus est qui faveat ; immo contrarium tenuit Augustinus : Vnde mirum quòd tot artibus utamini . And hence it seems they were forc'd to corrupt St. Austin to the Popes face the 30 of September following ; which being discovered , the Authour died of melancholy and disgrace . Again , in the tenth Congregation , the same Pope taxed them , Quod Scholasticis , maxime suis , non Scripturâ , Conciliis , Patribus , uterentur . A sign how sound their way of doctrin is , how sincere their proceedings to defend it . Yet , 't is urged farther , that the Fathers who lived before St. Austin , are generally of the contrary opinion . This is a simple assertion without proof , and my name is Thomas : I would entreat therfore such of my Readers as light on this objection , to remember that the question , of the force of Grace , and liberty of Free will , consists of two truths , that seem , like the Symplegades , to butt at one another , as long as we look at them afar off ; but if we make a neerer approach , they shew a fair passage betwixt them . So then , it is not hard that one who studies the question for pleasure , especially in such Fathers as wrote before the combating of the truth by Heresies , should be deceiv'd , by the seeming overlaying of that side , which the Fathers had occasion to inculcate ; though they meant nothing lesse then to prejudice the verity , which stands firm on the other side the fretum of this disputation . Adde to this , that St. Austin himself examin'd the Fathers , and found in them the doctrin he maintain'd ; nor could it be otherwise , the general apprehension of the Church being against Pelagius . Therfore I shal follow the advice of the Proverb , and be fearful to leap before I look : especially , since a great reader of St. Chrysostom solemnly profess'd he could shew as strong places in him for Grace , as in St. Austin ; though he be the man chiefly set up against St. Austin . THE EIGHTH ENCOUNTER , Shewing , our Ladies immaculate conception is not likely to become an Article of Faith. AS for the state of the question , about our Ladies being conceiv'd in Original sin , some would willingly perswade us , the Negative is in great probability to be defin'd ; whereas certainly there is no Tradition for it ( if Wadding's sayings be rightly reported . ) But if defining signifies the clearing of Tradition , ( as we explicate it ) nothing can be more evident , then that there is no probability of defining the negative part : rather it may be in danger of being , at least , censured , for rashly putting an exception in the generall rule of Scripture , which expresly condemns all but our Saviour to Original sin ; except the defenders can shew good ground for the priviledg they pretend , which I much doubt . For , as far as I can understand , the whol warrant of that opinion stands upon a devotion to our Lady , arising chiefly from a perswasion that original sin is a disgrace to the person in whom 't is found : So that , if the people were taught original sin is nothing but a disposition to evil , or a natural weakness , which , unless prevented , brings infallibly sin and damnation ; and that in it self it deservs neither reproach nor punishment , as long as it proceeds not to actual sin , the heat of vulgar devotion would be cool'd , and the question not thought worth the examining . However , ther 's no great appearance of deciding that point in favour of the negative ; since the earnest sollicitations of two so potent Kings could so little prevail towards it : For , all that was done had only this design , to appeas the seditions sprung up in Sivil by occasion of a Dominicans Conclusions , in which he affirm'd that our Lady was Conspurcata with Original sin . But , the controversy was so uncivilly carried , that it scandaliz'd our English Merchants ; as one of them there present told me not long after , meeting him at Dunkirk . But because this objection is much urged , let us see the probabilities of its being defin'd . The first is , that the maintainers of the Affirmative are only a few of one Order , and some few taught by them : But , if good account be made , I believe these few will prove some thousand or fifteen hundred of the most learned in the Christian world . Their Order is known to have always been the flower of the Schools ; to have had the Inquisition many ages in their hands : to have a stile of Divinity of a higher strain then ordinary ; by their great study and adhesion to the Doctrin of St. Thomas of Aquine : Their Monasteries numerous , especially in Spain and Italy ; no great Convent wherin there are not a dozen or more grave and learned Divines , almost all the honours amongst them being distributed according to the probate of ability in knowledg : so that the Order is no contemptible part of the Learning of the Church . Neither is it credible their Schollars can be few ; much less , as this Author passionatly terms them , unus et alter . He objects farther , the subscriptions of many Prelates , Orders and Universities , the general acclamation of the people , the weighty necessity of cutting off scandals ; That some Universities oblige the Schollars to make vows to maintain the negative ; and in a word that the Affirmers hold against the whole Church . Nor do I doubt that many Prelates , Orders and Universities subscribed the Negative , and peradventure to the Petition , or that the people ( who follow the greater cry ) did demand the same : but , that the Affirmers held against the whole Church , I totally deny , and shew manifestly the contrary . For , Buls having been accepted and standing in force , by which all Censure against the Affirmative is forbidden , and no one syllable obtain'd any way derogatory to the probability of the opinion ; but generally , a caveat to the contrary expresly put into such instruments and the Defenders of the negative submitting to them : 't is clear , that all the maintainers of the Negative alow the Affirmative to be probable , and by consequence not against the consent of the Church ; since it seems to imply a flat contradiction , that the Church should believe a Negative to be true , and yet at the same time admit the affirmative may be true . Now , as for Universities , there are entire ones for the Affirmative ; and that , not on the score of St. Thomas , but of the Fathers . What Universities strive for the Negative , so ranckly as to make men take vows , I know not : The Article of Paris , as I hear , is only that they shal not teach it in the University ; els-where every one is free . As for hindring scandals , 't is a necessary part of Government ; but certainly obliges not to a defining or deciding of Truths according to the inclinations of the people , push'd on by the clamours of violent Preachers . Notwithstanding all this , our adversary presumes this very point may prove an Article of Faith ; especially , if a Council should meet about the decision : wherin he proceeds with a very high confidence , it being , as he thinks , now ready to topple into a matter necessary to salvation . But I am far from that mind : for I see the fervours of the Schools are a quite different thing from the judgments of the Church , and how little all those tumults moved the Court of Rome , and certainly would have made far less impression in a general Council . The controversy betwixt the Jesuits and the Dominicans , what a busle makes it in the School and in the world ; while it stands upon the fairer tongue , upon motives esteemable by the people , and meer plausibilities ? Wheras coming to be examin'd before the Pope in Congregations , it could not hold water ; but the weaker part was forc'd to break off the cours of judgment , by mingling Princes quarrels into Ecclesiastical questions . I dare confidently say , if the Point of our Ladies , Conception were to be handled , either in a Council or grave Congregation : the party that free her ( setting aside the passions of Princes ) would be distressed to find an argument that themselvs should hope would endure the discussing . And so , the pretty gradations of our imaginative adversaries , who so easily frame a ladder for this opinion to climb up into a matter of Faith , is like an odd attempt of an acquaintance of mine ; who , being come out of Lancashire to go beyond-sea , and repuls'd at Dover for want of a Pass , put off his hose and shooes and began to wade into the sea ; when , being asked what he meant , he answer'd he would go on foot , since they would not let him pass in the Boat ; for , said he , I have often waded through the Beck at my Fathers door when the bridg was taken away . By which counterfeiting of simplicity he got to be admitted into the ship : wheras those who make their argument from the School-discussions to Church-definitions , will ( if I am not mistaken ) remain on the wrong side of the water . THE NINTH ENCOUNTER . Shewing the unanimous agreement of Divines , that all infallibility is from Tradition . THe third argument is drawn from this Waddings proceedings and his consorts , with the addition of another not unlearned man ( according to the cours of these times ) who puts Scripture and definitions of the Church to be the adaequate ground into which our Faith is resolv'd . Besides , 't is urg'd , that even those who speak of Tradition , seek it not in the testimony of the present Church , but of the ancient Fathers : This being already answer'd in the sixth Objection , we need not here add much to it ; For what imports it , if Wadding and his associates understood not upon what grounds the Church uses to resolve and decide controversies , ( and therfore bring Revelations , Metaphorical expressions of Scripture , the cry of the people , a multitude of School Divines , and the like arguments ) so that in their lives and believing or acting as Christians , they proceed not out of these grounds , but , by the Colliers principle , rely on the Church , and by her , on what she rely's . Galilaeo dislikes the notions of wet and dry , which Aristotle gives : do they therfore disagree or not know one anothers meaning , when they talk of a wet and dry cloth ? Among our modern Philosophers great quarrels there are about the explication of time and place : yet this hinders not , but that in common discours , when they speak of years and days , Country's and Towns , they make a shift to understand one another . The reason is ; because these conceptions ( used in ordinary discours ) are planted in them by nature ; the same objects working the same effect upon souls of one nature : But the other notions are made by study and artificial proceeding , and prove fals or true according as the precedent discourses are fallible or solid . Even so , believing is made by nature in us , and is all alike in those to whom the object is proposed alike : But to explicate and declare it , happens differently among Doctors , as they understand better or wors . Now then admit all those we call Schoolmen were against the doctrine I maintain , though I conceive such an universal agreement impossible , unless they be supposed to demonstrate their Tenets , ( which if they do , I readily submit ; if not ) what doth it impeach the opinion I defend ? or what would it avail to bring one or more on my behalf , whose authorities may be rejected with the same facility as offer'd ; since they neither carry with them security from error nor evidence of Truth ? let us therfore permit Divines to try out their own quarrels in their own Schools : not mingling them in our business . Yet , to give some satisfaction , let the objector answer me himself : Does not the greater part of Divines seek out Tradition ? Yes will he say : but not that Tradition which rely's on the present Church : for they seek it in laborious quotations of Fathers , in all ages . Let 's agree then in this , They seek Tradition as well as I : But I pray what do they intend by so great labour in heaping of Fathers ? do they mean it was those Fathers opinion ? and so make their conclusion good , because such a number of Doctors held it : or do they farther pretend , out of these Fathers testimonies , to shew it was the publick doctrin of the Ages in which they lived ? If the adversary be as ingenuous as he is ingenious , he will confess they pretend to argue the publick belief out of this numerous Catalogue . Nevertheless , for fear some other may be more reserv'd , let 's remember , what was before objected , that some points have been defin'd , notwithstanding the opposition of many Fathers ; and this , by the verdict of these Divines : Whence it clearly appears that this numbring of Fathers would not make a doctrin certain to them ; unless they thought the sense of the respective Ages were imply'd in it : Therfore , in conclusion , it is evident that they also rely , for Faith , upon the succession of it through divers ages ; which is the same as the Doctrin's being handed from the Apostles to us . So that you see we all agree ; and I , whom you took to be particular in this conceit , am thus far of the common opinion . But the adversary urges , that I come to the knowledg of this succession , by the testimony of the present Church ; wheras they who search it in Fathers find it by the consent of antiquity . Suppose it be so : what difference makes this ? It is too great a servility to be bound not to say any word but what has before faln in my adversaries way : Yet , at least , can he justify this ? do not those Divines according to what himself would have them say , profess that the present Churches definition makes a certainty in our Faith ? Admit then the present Church ( in a Council or otherways , as it shall please those Divines ) should define , that a point doubted of were come down by Tradition , from the Apostles to us ; would not they say , Tradition were sufficiently known by such a Testimony ? Surely it cannot be deny'd ; I ask again : whether the professing a point of doctrin to be hers , by receiving it from hand to hand , be not to testify and define that Tradition stands for this doctrin ? Therfore all such Divines confess Tradition may be known by the testimony of the present Church . Why then do they use such diligence in collecting so many passages out of Fathers ? chiefly for this reason , because Sectaries deny that principle : therfore they are forc'd for their satisfaction ( not for instruction of Catholicks ) to take so much pains with little thanks many times . Though it be true their learned labours confirm , besides , some weak believer , and enlighten the borders of Catholick Faith : and so in themselvs are both ornamental and profitable to the Church . And now , what if I should add , that these very Doctors hold there is no security of Faith , but only by Tradition ? I know I am thought subject to talk Paradoxes : nevertheless , because it is a point important to the unity of the rule of Catholick Faith , out it shall go , and the discours be neither long nor obscure . I ask therfore , do not these Doctors require to the certainty of a Definition , that the Definers proceed without malice or negligence , and use all human endeavours to discover the truth ? I cannot answer for every particular , but am sure the principal Divines require these conditions : otherwise they doubt not but the definitions may be erroneous . I ask again , what certainty can we have of this proceeding of the Definitors ? or was there ever Council yet , against which the condemned Party did not cry out , that they had fail'd in observing them ? I conclude therfore two things ; first , that , in the Churches definitions of this nature , there can be no more then the certainty of moral Prudence , according to these mens opinions , ( if they follow their own grounds : ) Secondly , that there is no Moral quarrel betwixt Sectaries and them , concerning the infallibility of such definitions : for the exception generally , in the first condemnation of any heresy , rises from this part , Whether the Judg proceeded equally ? and not , Whether , if he did so , his authority were to be rejected ? there being seldom found so blind a boldness in any as to say , a Judge does him wrong , and yet proceeds rightly : for either he judges what he understands not , and that 's rashness ; or , seeing the right , he pronounces wrong , and that 's malice : both which are unexcusable from injustice . So that , I believe , in this point , they do not assure the Church against Hereticks , though both sides should agree in the speculative part , that the Difinitors were infallible . I know , Divines say , Catholiks are bound to believe the Definitor proceeded as he ought , unlesse the contrary be evident ; and I see they speak with a great deal of reason : but withall , I see this maxim is a principle of Obedience and Action , not of Infallibility and belief . I have yet a little scruple about this doctrin . For , either the Definitors are assur'd the doctrin they define is true , or no : If not , how can it be said they proceed rationally , who determin a position , as certain , which they see not to be so ? If they are , then the Opinion was certain , before the Definition , on some ground precedent to , and independent of it ; and so , not made certain by the definition , but only declar'd to the ignorant , by the Authority of the Definer , that it was and is certain , upon other grounds . Now , excepting Tradition , Scripture and Definitions , I know not any thing men seek into for an irrefragable Autority : Therefore , what is defin'd , must be , before , certain , either by Scripture , or by Tradition . Let those Divines , now , chuse which they think fittest to cleave to : For Rushworth has declared his opinion sufficiently ; and it is clear enough , what all they must say , Catholiks or Protestants , who think the Scripture needs Explicators , to make a point certain . Neither can we doubt of this , if we look into the actions of the Catholik Church ; where we see an Heretick is term'd so , for chusing an Opinion against the Faith certainly received , and in possession of the Church from which he separates himself . But this separation is , at the beginning of the errour , and before the interposure of the Church : He is therefore an Heretick , before any decision makes him so . THE TENTH ENCOUNTER That there was no Tradition for the errour of the Chiliasts . BEsides the objections we have already endeavoured to answer , some other instances are urged : As , of Origen , whose doctrin being explicated in such large volumes , how an Adversary can draw it into the compass of Tradition , or how it can be argued , that the condemning of him was a breach of Tradition , I know not . But chiefly they insist upon the Chiliasts errour , as an unquestionable Apostolicall Tradition . To try the busines , let us remember , we cal'd Tradition , the handling of a doctrin , preach'd and setled in the Church of God by the Apostles , down to later ages . Now then , to prove the Chiliad opinion was of that nature , the first point is to evince , that it was publish'd and setled by the Apostles : the contrary whereof is manifest out of Eusebius History , who relates that the root of it was a by-report collected by Papias , a good , but credulous and simple man. His goodness surpris'd St. Irenaeus ; who ( as may be infer'd out of his Presbyteri meminerunt ) learned it of Papias , ( for the plural number does not infer that there was more then one , as all know that look into the nature of words ; or , if there were more , they may be such as had it from Papias ) St. Justin the Martyr esteem'd it not , as a point necessary to salvation ; but rather a piece of Learning higher then the common : since he both acknowledges other Catholicks held the contrary , and entitles those of his perswasion 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , right in all opinions , that is , wholy of his own mind ; for no man can think another right in any position , wherein he dissentes from him : Nay , he shews that the Jew ( against whom he disputes ) suspected his truth , as not believing any Christian held this opinion ; so rare was it among Christians ; nor does he ever mention Tradition for it , but proves it meerly out of the Prophets . Whence it appears , there is no ground or probability this was ever a Tradition , or any other then the opinion of some Fathers , occasioned by Papias , and confirm'd by certain places of Scripture , not wel understood , most errours being indeed bolster'd up by the like misapplications ; a scandal that ever since the practice of the Tempter upon Christ himself , may wel be expected to importune Christians . But first is objected in behalf of the Chiliasts , that they had no Tradition against them . To which I reply , A contrary Tradition might be two waies in force against them ; one formally , as if it had been taught by the Apostles directly , Christ shall not raign upon earth a thousand yeers , as a temporall King : The other , that something incompossible with such a corporal raign was taught by Them : and of this I finde two ; one general , another particular ; the generall one is , that the pleasures and rewards promised to Christians are spiritual , and the whol design of the Christian Law aims at the taking away all affections towards corporal Objects ; whereas this Errour appoints corporal contentments for the reward of Martyrs , and by consequence , either encreases , or at least fosters the affection to bodily pleasures and temporal goods : The particular one is , that Christ being ascended to Heaven , is to remain there till the universal judgment : Wherfore it is evident , by the later , that it is against Tradition ; and , by the former , that it is not only so , but a Mahumetan , or at least , a Jewish errour , drawing men essentially to damnation : as teaching them to fix all their hopes and expectance hereafter on a life agreeable to the appetites of flesh and blood . 'T is opposed also , that the Fathers of the purest Ages receiv'd it , as deliver'd from the Apostles . A fair Parade ▪ but , if we understand by the Fathers , One , St. Irenaeus ; and him deluded by the good Zeal of Papias ( as Eusebius testifies ) but good even to folly ( for lesse cannot be said of it ; ) where is the force of this so plausible argument ? Adde to this that the very expression of Ireneus proves it to be no Tradition ; for he sets down the supposed words of our Saviour , which plainly shews it is a Story , not a Tradition ; a Tradition ( as we have explicated it ) being a sense delivered not in set words , but setled in the Auditors hearts , by hundreds of different expressions explicating the same meaning . There follows Justin Martyr's testimony , That All Orthodox Christians in his age held it ; ( for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ( say they ) are not so different , but one may be taken for the other . ) Neverthelesse , there is no such saying in Justin ; for , however 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 may pass one for the other , yet the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 has ( by Ecclesiastical use ) an appropriation to the Catholik or Christian right believers , which descends not from the Primitive , and so cannot be transfer'd to the Derivatives from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : Wherfore 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 is neither fairly nor truly translated Orthodox . No more does it help the Adversaries cause , that Justin compares the maintainers of the conrary opinion to the Sadduces among the Jews : For , he mentions two sorts of persons denying his position ; wherof one he resembles to the Sadduces , the other he acknowledges to be good Christians , and says they are many , or ( in the eloquent usage of the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) the Commonalty of Christians . Nor wil the next Objection give us much trouble , That none oppos'd the Millenary errour before Dionysius Alexandrinus : To which we apply this answer : First , for any thing we know , it was hidden and inconsiderable till his time , and then began to make a noise , and cause people to look into it . Secondly , there are probable Motives to perswade , it was impugn'd long before : For , it being clear , that both Heretiks and Catholiks sustain'd the contrary , we cannot wel suppose it was never contradicted till then , though the report of it came not to their ears ; since , who considers the few monuments we have of these first Ages , must easily discern the hundred part is not deriv'd to us , of what was then done . But lastly , admit there was no writing against it till Dionysius Alexandrinus ; does it follow , there was no preaching neither ? As little can be gathered out of St. Hierom's being half afraid to write against it ; both because he did write against it , as is clear in his comment upon St. Matthew , and upon Ezekiel , where he cals it a Jewish Fable , l. 11. and because the multitude he speaks of , argues nothing of Tradition , but the numerosity of that sort of believers , occasion'd by the writings of the Heretick Apollinaris , as the same Saint testifies , Comment . 10. in Esaiam . Neither doth St. Austin stick to condemn it , since those words c. 7. 24. de Civit. Dei , esset utcunque tolerabilis , signifie , that it is not tolerable . Yet truly I cannot but admire , that he who puts the Chiliasts opinion to have been deriv'd duely and really from the Apostles by verbal Tradition , should conceive that either St. Hierom or St. Austin could think such a Tradition to be no sign of the Churches doctrin , or not care whether it were or no : which seems to me the same as to impute to these Saints a neglect of what they thought to be the Churches opinion ; or els , to the Church , a neglect of what was Christs doctrin , if She would not accept what She knew was descended verbally from Him ; or , at least that St. Austin and St. Hierom lay this great slander , of neglecting the known doctrin of Christ , upon the Church . THE ELEVENTH ENCOUNTER , That there was Tradition for the Trinity , before the Council of Nice . THe Chiliad errour seems to have been only an Usher to the Arian ; which speaks far louder for it self . And that learned Cardinal Perron is placed in the front of their Evidence , whose testimony is , that The Arians would gladly have been try'd by the writings yet remaining of those Authors who lived before the Council of Nice ; for in them will be found certain propositions , which now ( since the Church-Language is more examin'd ) would make the Speaker thought an Arian . From whence the Opposers infer , that before the Council of Nice , there was no Tradition for the mystery of the blessed Trinity . But to maintain this consequence , I see no proof ; for the Cardinal's words clearly import that the Fathers before that Council ( though being Catholiks , they knew and held the mystery of the Trinity , yet ) in somephrases spake like Arians : How then can any man draw out of this Antecedent , that these Fathers believ'd not the Trinity , or had not receiv'd by Tradition the knowledg of that Mystery ? I confess my self unable to see the least probability in such an inference . If it be permitted to guess what they aim at that make this objection : I believe it is that , some propositions concerning the Trinity , by disputation and discussion , have been either deduced or clear'd , which before were not remark'd do draw so much consequence upon the mystery , as since is found they do : out of which they think it follows that such propositions were not delivered by Tradition , and so not our whole Faith. To this the answer is ready ; that , as he who says a mystery was taught by the Apostles , does not intend to say the Apostles taught what the words were , in every Language , which were to signify this Mystery ; so neither is his meaning that they taught , how many ways the phrase in one language might be varied , keeping the same sense : But , as they left the former to the natural Idiom of the speaker or writer , so the latter to the Rules of Grammar ; as likewise they left it to the speakers skil in Logick , to contrive explications or definitions for the terms wherein they deliver'd the Mysteries . It is not therfore to be expected that men , who had receiv'd the Mystery simply and plainly , should , without both art and attention , know how in different cases , to explicate it according to the exact rules of Science . And thus , the defect of the argument or arguer is , that he supposes , not only the main verity should be formally convey'd by Tradition ; but all manner of explication and in all terms , which the subtlety or importunity of Hereticks could afterward drive the Catholicks to express this Mystery by : a task both impossible to be perform'd , and most unreasonable to require , and perhaps unprofitable if it were done . Nor therfore does it follow that somthing is to be believ'd , which came not down by Tradition : For , as he that says Peter is a man , says he is a living creature , a body , a substance , ( though he uses not those words , ) because all is comprehended in the term Man ; so , he that delivers One God is Father , Son , and Holy Ghost , delivers , that those persons are not Alia but Alij , and that truly the Son is not an Instrument , a commanded servant &c. Yet , as it may happen , that one man sees another to be , but knows not what the definition of him is ; nor needs he ordinarily know it , because he knows the thing defined : so may it also chance that some Fathers , who knew well enough the mystery , might falter in explicating it precisely according to the rigour of Logick ; and 't is no good consequence , The Fathers were less exact in some expressions concerning the Trinity , therfore they held it not or had not learn'd it by Tradition . Yet I must also intimate , these differences of speech proceeded many times from the various usage of the words ; as the Greeks generally say , the Father is cause of the Son ; the Latines abhor it , calling him Principium : which difference is not in the meaning , but in the equivocation of the expression . So we read in St. Athanasius , that he found an opposition in some people ; one sort saying there were in the Trinity three Hypostases and one 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; another three 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and one Hypostasis : and St. Hierom , though perfect in the Greek Tongue , was so exceedingly troubled with this question , that he sent to St. Damasus for the resolution of it ; yet he wel knew there was no difference in the sense , but only in the terms ; however he fear'd lest , by the wrong use of the words , he might unawares be drawn into a wrong meaning . So likewise did St. Athanasius find , that the two former parties , of which we spake , agreed in the Catholick sense , though their words were opposite . The reason of this opposition is the nature of these two words , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and Hypostasis , which primarily and radically signify the same thing ; Aristotle telling us , that Hypostasis is prima or primò substantia , which in Greek is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : whence it appears , this word , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , does not signify what in Latin is call'd natura , ( to which the word substantia , by use , is now appropriated , when we speak of this mystery ) but only in a secondary sense . Again , the word Hypostasis is deriv'd from Substando , or Subsistendo , and therfore usually translated Subsistentia and might properly be exprest by Substantia . Now , applying this to the mystery of the Trinity , Because in God there is one common Nature , abstrahible from three proprieties ; therfore the nature seems to substare to the said properties and so deserv the name Hypostasis : wherupon some explicated the Trinity to be una hypostasis , et tres Ousiae . For Ousia being deriv'd from 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or Ens , and Ens or Substantia , and ( in Greek ) Ousia signifying primarily what the Schools term Suppositum ( that we see with our eys , a demonstrable singular , named substance , as Bucephalus , Athos &c. which among men ( if restrain'd to particulars ) is call'd Socrates or Plato , ( if used at larg ) in the common name a person : ) these men , very Catholikly , said three Ousia's and one Hypostasis , meaning three Persons and one God. But , the Fathers of the Council of Nice ( by much pondering these words , by their debates with the Arians , and to determine a rule in speaking , that Catholicks might not be subject , through equivocation , to be drawn into errour , ) agreed upon the contrary ; because Hypostasis was more commonly in use for that we call a Person , and Ousia was rather a School term fetch'd from Philosophers books , and therfore might , with less violence to common language , be taken in a secondary sense . Thus it became the rule of speaking in the Church , to say three Hypastases and one Ousia . Besides , those speeches which Perron cites are not so harsh , but as , in a rigorous interpretation , they are fals , so , in a moderate sense , they contain undeniable truths . Philosophers divide instruments into Conjuncta and Separata ; and , among the Conjuncta , number up our Arms and Legs &c. which are our very substance : It does not therfore follow , if the Son be called an Instrument , that his substance is distinguish'd from the Substance of his Father ; because the Instrumentality consists in nothing but the difference of their notional conceits of Being and Knowledg , wherof Knowledg seems to be but the Vehiculum of Being towards the operation or effect : So likewise , whoever works by a power that is not in himself , otherwise then from another in whom 't is principialiter and ( as the Greek speaks both anciently and at this day , ) Authoritativè may , not improperly , be said to be commanded ; though the other be not his Master or Better . Neither is there such rigour in the genders of aliud and alius , but that aliud is many times apply'd to the person ; and only Ecclesiastical use , grounded on the height of propriety and distinction of Genders , binds us to this manner of speaking , which for unity and charity sake we observe . Out of what has been discours'd about the name Ousia , we may easily solve the seeming contradiction of the Council of Antioch to that of Nice : for , if Ousia may signify a person , ( as we have shew'd it does , in its best and chiefest signification ; ) then Homoousion signifies the same person . So that the Conncil of Antioch , denying Christ to be Homoousios to his Father , deny'd no more then that he was the same person with his Father ; which no subtlety can ever prove to be against the Fathers of the Nicen Council . Nor is this said to reconcile contradictories , but discover equivocations : For that this was the true reason of the opposition , is easily deduc'd out of both St. Athanasius and St. Hillary , and the question which St. Hierom made to St. Damasus . But it may be urged , if there were a verbal Tradition , how could the Christians , through want of caution , contradict one another : or , had it been as known a part of Religion as the Resurrection , how could Constantine have so slighted it , when it first rose , or Alexander the holy Bishop for a while have remain'd in suspence ? To this I answer , If , by verbal Tradition , be understood , that the Tradition was deliver'd in set words ; certainly those set words could not be doubted of , though their sense must needs be capable of eternal controversy : but the meaning of verbal , here intended , is only as contradistinguisht to written Tradition ; which ( being in set words , whose interpretation is continually subject to dispute ) is therfore opposed to Oral or mental , where the sense is known , and all the question is about the words and expressions . Nevertheless , suppose it had been deliver'd in a set and determinate phrase , and that Hereticks began to use other words ; a controversy might be about those terms which the Hereticks introduc'd , and many might demur , uncertain of the question in such new expressions : as we see , those who rely on Scripture are in perpetual quarrels about the sense ; wheras , to Catholicks , the sense of their Faith is certain , though the words be sometimes in question . The reason therfore , why , at Arius his first broaching that desperate heresy , Alexander remain'd a while in suspence , was not that he understood not his own Faith , but because he apprehended not what Arius meant , nor whether his propositions were contrary to the receiv'd truth : But when once Arius broke into those speeches , that Christ was a creature , and that there was a time when Christ was not ; then that holy Bishop likewise broke into those words , Quis unquam talia audivit ? and this is the crime which Socrates reprehends in Arius , that he began to move points 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , formerly not question'd , but receiv'd with an uniform consent and credulity . As for Alexanders praising , somtimes one , somtimes the other party , it proves no more then that he was a prudent man : though Ruffinus seems to tax him of oversoftness . But , because few falsities can be void of all truth , and few truths ( at least before much discussion ) totally free from all mixture of circumstantial errour ; therfore it could not be otherwise then wel , to praise both sides ingenuously , according as they spake truth and reason , and discommend them , when they fell into falsities . As for Constantine's slighting the Question at first , it shews no more but that , then , he did not penetrate the consequence of it , or rather , was not well enform'd concerning it . For , ordinarily , the craftiest and most active party are they who make the first report ; and if themselves be in the wrong , ( as many times such are more eager and diligent then those that hold the right ) their remonstrance is accordingly . And so it was : for , Constantine receiv'd his first information at Nicomedia ; very probably too , from Eusebius , Bishop of that City , a most perverse adherent to Arius : nor did Constantine himself know wherin the question consisted ; as appears by this , that in his whol Letter there is not one word of explication of the point , but only in common , that it was of slight questions , not belonging to the substance of Faith ; the Arians stil craftily endeavouring to diminish the importance of the controversie . Besides , we have good ground to believe , that some learned men in Court were prevented by Arius , and sollicited into a secr●● favour of this errour ; from whom , 't is likely , proceeded that motion of Constantine to the Council , for determining the point out of Scripture . Nor imports it , that the Bishops contradicted not this proposition of the Emperour in words ; because they had reason to follow it , ( though not to that end to which the Emperour propos'd it , viz. the solution of the question , but ) to the conviction of the Arians , and satisfaction of the world . For , to speak to the reality of the business , there was no doubt among the Fathers about the truth or falsity of the main matter , ( being fully satisfied concerning that , by Tradition , even from their childhood : ) but the question was about the answer to their enemies proofs , and to consult what arguments and reasons should be alledged against them ; for the satisfaction of the Church , and the world without the Church , and for the expression of the Catholik doctrin , in such words as the Arians could not equivocally interpret to their own perverse meaning : especially , finding they had fo puzled the world with the dust they had rais'd in mens eyes , that even some good Catholiks could scarce see their way , but were in danger of stumbling against the blocks those Hereticks maliciously cast before their feet . Eusebius Caesariensis testifies of himself , that He thought Alexander's party had held the Son of God to be divided from the Father , as one part is cut from another in Bodies ; which would have made God a body , and truly two Gods. For these reasons was their magna conquisitio , their turning of Scriptures , and their meeting in Council , as St. Athanasius witnesses , speaking in the name of the very Council it self , in his Epistle de Synodis : We met here ( says he ) not because we wanted a Faith , ( that is , because we were uncertain what to hold ) but , to confound those who contradict the truth and goe about novelties . Neither can any argument be made out of Eusebius's Epistle to some Arians , in which he says , The Bishops of the Council approved the word homoousion , because they found it in some illustrious Fathers : for , though the inward sense of that term was perfectly traditional , yet was it not til then precisely fixt to that particular expression . But the same Bishpos consented to the Excommunication of the Contradictors , to hinder men from using unwritten words : and was not that a proper and prudent remedy to prevent the inconveniences that easily arise from confusion and incertainty of language ; when every one phrases the mystery , according to his private fancy , and governs not his terms by some constant and steady rule , as , the writings of the Apostles or ancient Fathers : which interpretation exactly agrees with the Greek of Eusebius , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that literally and truly signifie Words written neither in Scripture nor any where else , as the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 was in the Fathers . And so , I need not alledge He was a secret Arian ; though , if he were , his testimony , as far as it reaches , would be so much the more efficacious against them , as Theodoret imploys it . Now , by all this may be seen , why in Councils there are engag'd so many disputations : for no calumny can be so impudent as to deny , the Fathers know their Faith before they meet there ; which is plainly imply'd by the Hereticks ordinary protesting against them , as unfit Judges because they are parties , and therfore refusing to come to the Council ; besides , the possession of the old Religion being as publik and notorious , at such times , as the Sun it self at noon : wherfore , to say they come to seek out or dispute their Religion , by those long conferences , is a pure folly . They then hold their Religion upon Tradition or possession : but dispute things , either for regulating the Churches language , that all Catholiks may keep a set form of explication of their Faith ; or else to convince their Adversaries out of such grounds as themselvs admit . To dispute , whether a Council , not confirm'd by the Pope , makes an Article de fide , or no ? concerns not the difficulty now before us ; and engages Catholick against Catholick , which is not our present work . In the mean while , out of all which has been said , we may gather , that there is no apparence the Catholick Doctrin , concerning the Trinity , was diversly taught before the Council of Nice , and , then first , establish'd out of the Scriptures : but , that it was the known and confessed faith of all the Ages before , as St. Athanasius expresly teaches ; avowing confidently he had demonstrated it , supplicating the Emperour to permit the Catholicks to live in the belief of their Forefathers , and upbraiding his adversaries that they could not shew their progenitors . And to say the truth , unless a man be so perverse as to affirm Christians did not use the form of Baptism prescrib'd by Christ , there can be no doubt of the Tradition of the blessed Trinity : the very words of Baptism carrying the Tradition in themselvs . Lastly , 't is objected , there was no reason for the Council of Nice , in this quarrel , to look into Tradition , since they had such abundance of Scripture . But we must put out our eys , if we do not see that even at this day the Arians are so cunning as to avoid the strongest Texts of Scripture , and explicate them by other places ; and that 't is impossible to convince , in this manner , any Heretick , as long as one place can explicate a hundred opposed . The Council therfore , at last , ( though favour'd with as much advantage as Scripture could give over its adversaries ) was forc'd to conclude out of Tradition : as Theodoretus , St. John Damascen , and chiefly St. Athanasius himself confesses : a necessity which the Rules of St. Irenaeus , Tertullian , St. Basil , and Vincentius Lyrinensis ( who teach , it is to no purpose to dispute with Hereticks out of Scripture , ) and our own experience of above a hundred years , plainly convince and fully justify to any rational man , whose humour or interest is not to have all Religion obscure and doubtful . THE TWELFTH ENCOUNTER . That the necessity of Communicating Infants is no Tradition ; But Prayer to Saints is . THere are yet two instances urged against Tradition . One that , for six hundred years , 't was believ'd necessary to give the holy Eucharist to children ; which custom has now been a long time disused . The proof , as far as I know of the necessity , is drawn only out of St. Austin and St. Innocentius , and some words of St. Cyprian : The former of which Fathers are cited to make this argument against the Pelagians , The Eucharist cannot be given , unless to those who are baptized : But the Eucharist is necessary for Children : Therfore Baptism is necessary for them . To which I answer with a formal denyal , that any such argument is made by those holy Fathers : For their discours runs thus , It is necessary for Children to be incorporated into Christs mystical body ; but this cannot be done without Baptism : therfore Baptism is necessary for Children . Whether of us take the right sense of these Fathers , let the Books judg ; I will only add , 't is a great shallowness to think the Pelagians ( who deny'd the necessity of Baptism ) should admit the necessity of the Eucharist , or that it was easier for those Fathers to prove the necessity of the Eucharist , then of Baptism ; So that , their argument must be suppos'd , by the objector , to be drawn ex magis obscuro ad minus obscurum . Yet , because , especially , St. Austins words seem equivocal , I will briefly set down the state of the question . St. Dennis tels us , no Priestly function was compleat without the administration of the blessed Sacrament : Thence came a custom to communicate those who were baptiz'd . This custom reached even to Infants , but neither universally , that is , in all Churches nor indispensably : For , it was only then used , when Bishops were present at Baptism ; as is apparent , both because Communion was never administred , anciently , but after Confirmation ; and because , it was always held for the complement of all Priestly Benedictions , as is before declared : Besides , in some Churches , there is not the least sign that ever it was given to Infants . Another thing to be understood is , that St. Austin uses to explicate the Communion to be an incorporation into Christs mystical Body ; of which no doubt but the Sacramental body is both a figure and cause . This St. Austin himself , upon the sixth of St. John , plainly delivers , and , in his phrase , takes the eating and drinking of Christs Body to be Faith or Baptism : So do Orosius , Prosper , Fulgentius and Facundus , either explicating or following him . This equivocal manner of speaking makes those , who are either not attentive enough , or not willing to have him speak orthodoxly , construe his words Grammatically , that are spoken Allegorically ; which last his best Interpreters , and most expert in his works , accompt to be his opinion . But to conclude this History , After their loud and full cry , as if the prey were in their sight , which I believe wii never come within their reach , ( for a deep mouth is a sign of slow heels ; ) let us see how necessary the African Church ( an objection more strongly urged ) thought Baptism it self was to Infants , that is , in how perpetual use . And presently Tertullian ( the mainly cited and glorify'd for St. Cyprians Master ) tells us lib. de Bap. c. 18. Itaque pro cujusque personae conditione ac dispositione , etiam aetate , cunctatio Baptism● utilior est . St. Austin . ( Disciple to the other two ) reports what hapned to himself , having ask'd Baptism in his Childhood , by reason of a sudden danger of death : which being passed , his Baptism was defer'd by his Mother ; Quia viz. post lavacrum illud , major et pericul●sior in sordibus delictorum eatus foret ; and adds , ita jam credebam , et illa , et omnis domus , nisi solus pater . And that this was not the Faith of that house only , but of the whole Country , is evident from these words ; unde ergo , etiam nunc , de alijs atque alijs , sonat undique in auribus nostris : Sine illum , faciat quod vult , nondum enim Baptizatus est . If then Baptism it self was not perpetually administred to Infants , can we think the Eucharist was ? or is here any probability it was so us'd to children , as not to be also often omitted , and that lawfully ? Maldonatus ( a grave man , otherwise ) exceeded , and I wonder he is tolerated , speaking so directly against the Council of Trent , after the publishing of it . But his assertion is manifestly fals : Since , 't is known Communion was not used to be given but after Confirmation ; and Baptism , without Confirmation , was held sufficient for salvation ; as is beyond cavil , expressed by St. Hierom , in Dialog . cont . Lucifer . about the middle . The last instance is of Prayer to Saints , which is proved not to have proceeded by Tradition from the Apostles time ; by four arguments . First , because divers Fathers held that the souls of Saints were not receiv'd into Heaven , till the day of Judgment ; therfore certainly they would teach no prayer to Saints . The Antecedent I will not dispute ; not that I believe it , but that I know not what it is to our question : For , suppose they are not ; may they not nevertheless pray for us ? we Catholicks think that Jeremy the Prophet was not in the Macchabees days admitted into Heaven , yet we make no difficulty to believe that he did multum orare pro populo & sancta civitate . Those Fathers that are cited for the Receptacles , are acknowledg'd to place the Saints in Sinu Abrahae ; and our Saviour teaches us , that Dives prayed to Abraham . The Protestants , as well as we , allow prayer to living Saints : wherever then the dead Saints are , are they worse then when they were living , that they may not be prayed to ? But the principal answer to destroy utterly this objection , is , that those who say we learn by Tradition , that Saints are to be prayed to , say likewise we have learn'd by Tradition that Saints go to heaven , that is , are admitted to the fight of God , before the day of Judgment . The next proof is , that prayer to Saints began with a doubting preface of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; to which I find my self no ways engaged to frame a particular answer , having no farther ground from my Adversary ( who cites not any Author ) to explicate the meaning of this objection . I remember , Cardinal Richelieu , at his death , is reported to have taken his kinsman , Marshal de Meilleray , by the hand , and told him that , if the next world were such as was figured to us here , ( I deliver what I conceiv to be the sense , not the words ) he would not fail to pray for him : Now some , who had a hard opinion of that great Person , would press out of this speech , that he beleev'd not the Immortality of the Soul. Whether this also be pretended to be the meaning of that Optative term , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , I cannot judg ; for then I should easily admit it has some force against the Tradition of praying to Saints : But , if it be but an Oratorial expression and obtestation , such as is in St. Paul , when he presses men to good works , by the like phrase ; I know not how it reaches any way to his intent , and much less against the receiving of this use by Tradition : except the objector suppose that , truly , the first Prayer he finds in writing was the first that ever was made , which is neither proved nor probable . The third opposition is out of Nicephorus Calixtus , who reports , that Prayers to the Virgin Mary were first brought into the publick Liturgie , by Petrus Gnaphaeus , a Heretick . The consequence I should make out of this antecedent is , that , seeing the Author 's being a Heretik ( a condemnd and hated Person ) could not hinder this institution to take root and be approved , 't is a sign it had a deeper foundation then of his beginning : not that it was before in the Liturgie , but that it was an ordinary practice among Christians ; which use , because we know no origin it has in Scripture , must have been out of Tradition , and not of a short time : how our Adversary wil prove the contrary , I am not able to make any likely conjecture . The last argument is drawn out of the confession of our own Doctours , who affirm , there is no Precept for praying to Saints in the Church of God ( for so much is meant by those words , sub Evangelio ; ) and yeild the reason , that Pagans might not think themselves brought again to the worship of men . Which Antecedent having two parts , the non-precept , and the reason thereof : out of the first part nothing can be deduced ; out of the second this consequence is inferred , Pagans would be equally scandaliz'd by the Permission , as by the Precept . Wherfore , if it be commanded , neither certainly ought it be permitted . Although no law obliges one Divine to maintain the reasons of another , yet I see no such evidence in this consequence , as , for it , to renounce the reason : for , me thinks , if those we call Saints , were meant to be Gods , we should of necessity be bound to worship them ; whence it follows , if it be not necessary to worship them , neither are they Gods , nor the worship exhibited to them , such as is due to God ; but only of that degree which we give excellent creatures : a position so conformable to Nature , that it can scandalize none but the enemies of Perfection ; who , under pretence of avoiding Idolatry , take away the due honour and excitation to Vertue . But , which way , out of a non-Precept , can be infer'd the non-Teaching of the Doctrin , I cannot imagine ; since what those Doctors hold , continues true at this day , when it cannot be denied that Praying to Saints is both taught and practiced : For though , in our prayers , there be some directions to Saints ; yet , generally , Christians are not bound to such d●votions , and they that are , 't is but their own voluntary acceptance of the obligation to which such prayers are annexed . THE THIRTEENTH ENCOUNTER Reflecting on certain considerations : and shewing that there is nothing able to disprove the Church of Rome's Communion to be the signe of the true Church . ALthough , out of the whole preceding discourse it be evident that this way I defend , makes the Churches Definition depend upon the Tradition of the point defined , and not Tradition upon them ; as if , because by Tradition , we know the Churches Definitions to be true , therfore we know the truth deliver'd by Tradition : Nevertheless , since there may be some truth in this reflexion , That Tradition is known sometimes by Definition , let us see what can be said against it : T is first , therfore , put into consideration , whether since four Disciples of Christ have written Gospels , or the Gospel , that is , as much as they preach'd ( for they preach'd nothing but the Gospel : ) if God would have us trust the Church , he was not both to specifie so much , very plainly , in them , and farther deliver such signs as were necessary ever to know Her by . For answer , I ask a cross question , Whether if God Almighty would have all men see by the Sun , he was first to tell them which It is , and paint ' Its picture on every wall , that so we might know which is the Sun ? And because any question may seem rather offensive then deserving any answer , I proceed to the application ; and ask , Whether any of those Christians , of whom Saint John says , exierunt ex nobis , could doubt which was the Church , wherof he had been a part and left it ? And , since you cannot answer otherwise then affirmatively , I think I need not repeat the same question , of Arius , and Pelagius , and Luther . If then God has provided for all these , that they were taught to yeild obedience to the definitions of this Church , so clearly , that they could neither doubt which Church was their teacher , nor of what Church he spake ; how dare they presume to accuse him of deficiency in his providence ? The same Authority that gave you the Scripture , and told you it was the Word of God , said likewise , that what she taught was no lesse the Word of God. If you believe her report for the Book , why refuse you it for the Doctrin ? If her recommends be not security enough for the one , they will certainly prove far less for the other ; since , unlesse I am strangely mistaken , the doctrin of the Catholik Church is not so hard to believe , as the story of the Bible : let any Atheist or discreet Moore or Pagan be judge . Oh , but since the Evangelists wrote Gospels , they wrote all they preach'd ; for they preach'd nothing but the Gospel . The Gospel is known to be the same with the Greek Evangelium , that is , the Good-spel , or happy tidings of Christs comming : so that the Book or Preaching which tels us Christ is come , is a Gospel , be there never so much , more or lesse , in the Book or Sermon : how then it can be infer'd out of the name Gospel , that the Apostles writ as much as they preach'd ( for it is not credible they preach'd all they wrote ) I am not able to comprehend . The second consideration is , how we know when the Church has defined ? To which I answer , In the practice of sixteen ages it has no more been doubted , when the Church had defined , then when a Parliament had enacted : Why then is there required more information ? But , some Divines say more , some less to be enough . Let them be doing in the Schools , as long as the practice goes on sufficiently for the Churches government . Thirdly , we are to consider , Whether sufficient notes be left to know the Church by ? But who shall use these notes ? Catholicks ? They are in the Church . Hereticks ? They know what Church they forsook . Pagans ? They look not into the Scriptures to finde the Churches mark . Peradventure those Hereticks whose separation is so long since , that they remember not out of what Church they went. But none are grown so aged yet . However the marks of the Church are apparent enough in Scripture , if there want not wil in the seeker to acknowledg them . The fourth consideration is , Whether points of Faith , or to be of Faith , be infinite ( new ones continually springing ) or finite ? if finite , why are they not all delivered at once , to make an end of incertitude and defining ? The answer is , they are both finite and infinite : finite , in gross , and wholy deliver'd by the Apostles , wholy believed and practis'd by this present Church ; but infinite , in the detail , by which mans wit can parcel out this general stock of Faith. For , as soon as any sharp and crafty Heretik has varied some proposition , necessary to the explication of a fore-believed Doctrin , there may be occasion of setling some new proposition , which shal be no other then a part of what was formerly believ'd in Substance , though not so explicitly deciphred . As he that professes Christ is a Man , implies he has a mans Nature , a mans Understanding , and Will , and Action ; though this word Man distinguishes not precisely these faculties : nor does he that repeats all these qualities in particular , say any more then he that said in general he was a Man. Now then I answer the objection , as Aesops Master did those who would have bound him to drink up the Sea : stop the Rivers ( said he ) and I will performe my bargain : So say I , hinder impertinent curiosities from importuning the Church , and her Truths wil be undoubtedly seen in her belief and practice , without making new Definitions . The last objection ; that it will appear a shift to say the Churches definitions are certain , and yet not let it be known when she has defin'd , of it self falls flat to the ground : both because I take not that way ; and , if I did , since we are not troubled about knowing our Churches Definitions , who have the burthen of obeying and do it in practice , the Objectors are confuted as Diogenes did Zeno , ( when he disputed against motion , ) by walking before him . For all this , the Church of Rome must not escape yet : And so , we are told that , if she were design'd for the Pharos to know the rest of the Church by , somwhat had been advan'd ; for , otherwise ( say they ) we can assign no mark of the true Church , the Roman being deny'd to be such as we make her . First , I answer , we have no need of recourse to the Church of Rome ; it being the infallible distinctive sign of the Church , to lay claim to the handed Doctrin , or Tradition , which evidently appears cannot be claim'd by two : For , if two agree in a point to day , and one dissent to morrow , it were madness to say the disagreer can lay claim to yesterdays opinion . Secondly , we say , if we would fly to the Roman Church , the oppositions force us not from it : For , why is not Cardinal Perrons answer to Plessis invincible , that the whole Church condemn'd St. Cyprians proceedings ? Likewise the Asian Bishops were condemn'd in the Council of Nice . The African Bishops question was about the enacting a Law , which nevertheless , was carried for the Bishop of Rome . If the Fathers remit us to the Apostolical Churches , whose successions were , then , visible and evident ; what 's that to us , now , when all successions are interrupted , save only that of the Roman Church ? The definition of the Council of Calcedon is known to be only the conspiracy of a Cabal , never approved as legitimate ; but revers'd afterwards : So that all these angry darts turn their points against their Authors ; the judgment in every instance having past in favour of the Church they oppose . But this question , concerning the Church of Rome , is of greater extent and importance then to be huddled up in one sheet of Paper : Therfore , let us leave Her to the acknowledg'd Majesty she possesses in the Christian world ; and not , by slight objections and answers , rather seem to undervalue her Dignity , then either oppose or defend her Authority . You present us therfore next , with what is kept for the closing of our stomacks ; and they are two dishes : One , that at last we Catholicks resolve into Reason , as well as Protestants . To this I answer , if you mean we must see Reason why we give credit to Authority , I agree with you : But then , since Reason is on both sides , Why ( say you ) must it be a Wall to us , and a Bulrush to others ? I le tell you . Reason has two parts , Demonstration and Sophistry ; and , in Demonstrations , that evidence which governs our Lives , is the most familiar to us , and consequently , besides its firmness , 't is the most clear and least denyable : Now , this proposition , that we ought to believe a knowing person , in that wherin our selvs are ignorant , is , of this nature , a Maxime that governs all our life , publick and private : wherfore our ground or Reason , is a wall , a rock , or if any thing be yet more solid . On the other side , of all parts of Sophistry , that which is built on broken ends of obscure sentences of dead men , who cannot declare themselvs , is the most weak and contemptible : and this being that you rely on , Reason therfore , to you is weaker and more deceitful then any Bul-rush . The second dish is , that whatever is deliver'd in defence of the Church of Rome , only proves that , as yet , she is the true Church : not that she cannot leave the way she is in , and fall to reform ( as her adversaries cal it ; ) or that there may not happen some Shism among the Churches now adhering to her , where both parts may claim Tradition : and then where is the guide ? To this I answer , I will not weigh the proofs of others for the eternity of the particular Church of Rome : since there is no contest betwixt us here , about that : but those who are acquainted with controversies , cannot be ignorant , that our writers intend to prove Her indefectibility . All I 'le say is , did you but agree with us , that she is at present the true Church , it would be argument enough for you to submit , til the cases happen which you suppose possible ; and I should think my self too grating and severe towards a Person , in other respects extreamly recommendable , if I should press harder , then so upon him , nor could I desire a repast more delightful to my soul , then to have seen that in practice concerning him , which is now too late to be hoped . THE FOURTEENTH ENCOUNTER . Four other Arguments revers'd . SUch is the condition of Religion , when the liberty of chusing is permitted to all that have the boldness to challeng it ; who having no other Scales , to poise any arguments propos'd them , then the affection to their own wils or prejudice against others reasons , suffer every light objection to overballance the most weighty and solid Demonstration . Therfore am I forc'd to follow certain other Adversaries ( my chase not being confin'd only to the noble game ) into every by-turn and beat every little bush , where either the necessity of a desperate cause , the fables of some wild Reporter , or the craft of any jugling Hypocrite can drive them to hide their weak heads in . As for reason , in our present business , they tel you , every one is born in liberty to Religion , and , til it be demonstrated he is bound to acknowledg some Teacher , the presumption stands for liberty , and 't is meerly of curtesy and graciousness , they take the pains to bring arguments for the Negative . This I shal answer as the Caprich of some pragmatical Chaplain ; not having incivility enough to entertain the least suspition , that so great a Wit , stored with Art , in so busy a time about questions of government , should bring forth so mishapen a Monster . But alas ! what cannot an unruly fancy , that bites the bridle of reason ? Say then , my young Divines , of Politick , of Paternal government , what you say of Religion : Is not the absurdity so palpable , it wil make you asham'd ? That no child is bound to honour Father and Mother , till it be demonstrated to him he ought to do so ? No Subject to obey the Magistrate , til , after a long dispute his power be evidently proved legitimate ? Pass from these to Arts , and say every one may play the Physitian , the Pilot , the Judg , ( for Doctor of Divinity , you freely give your licence to all the world ) without having any Master or Teacher , what a goodly Common-wealth you wil make ? But 't is reply'd , Nullum tempus occurrit veritati , no more then Regi ; since veritas fortior est Rege . I , Sir , but in your major you put veritas , and in your minor , falsitas . For , what is your truth , when you come to declare your self , but probable arguments , of which nothing is more certain , then that they have no truth in them ? a proof , as such , still carrying its truth in its force of concluding ; but probable arguments have no force to conclude , and consequently , no truth . For , the truth of a saying is different from that of an argument : a true argument being that which proves the thing to be ; a true saying which only affirms it to be . And , if we look into it , we see , what I say is but the Law of Nature , and naturall constancy : for as , to not act , 't is enough to have no reason ; but , to act , we ought to have a positive cause : so , to remain in the Religion of our Birth and Education , there is no other reason requir'd , then because we are in it ; whereas , to change , we must have efficacious motives to perswade us . Here , my Adversary wil exult , and think , at least , Protestants cannot become Catholiks , without evidence , which he conceives impossible . And , I grant his consequence , if he can prove his supposition . For , to my sight , nothing is more clear then , that Protestants chang'd their Religion from being Catholiks , and that upon but probable grounds : whence it is evident , no Protestant , who is formally such , ( that is , holds his Religion on probable arguments , against the Catholik Church ) but stands in a continual formal rebellion against Her , who by his own acknowledgment was once his Magistrate , and against whom himself confesses he has no more then probable exception . Therfore , whoever , of a Protestant becomes Catholik , goes so far with evidence , that he reconciles himself to a government under which he once was , and had no just reason to depart from it , ( none being sufficient to excuse so great a disorder ) and so , ought , under peril of eternal damnation , return to his first obedience . For , where he is , he is certain to find no security ; since , his relyance , by his own verdict , is at most but upon plausible arguments : wheras , under the other government , there may be certainty , for ought he knows ; of which there is this fair motive , that they all professe it , which is more forcible for the credit of it , then what ever he can say in abetment of the contrary . Rashly , therfore , he opposes himself to follow a fals way , a way that assuredly leads to unavoydable precipices . They reply , the Turks also agree in the Law of Mahomet , and yet that brings no evidence their Law is true . But alas ! they observe not that , in saying so , they unawares call themselves no Christians : For , to us , this consent is no argument Mahometanism is true , because it carries no farther then that the Law is Mahomets ; And so far is manifest out of their common agreement : therfore , in parity , 't is evident , out of the consent of Christians , that the doctrin handed down from the Apostles , is Christs ; and the doubt may perhaps remain with the Objectors , but not with us , whether Cbrists doctrine be true ? as neither we nor they doubt that Mahomets preaching was fals . And seeing the case is common to all Christians , against the Roman Catholik , he only relying on Tradition , they all renouncing it , he only can run his Religion up to the Person of Christ , and there leave it securely establisht , upon the infallible credit of his word . And as no other sort of Christian society can pretend to this priviledge , so neither can they with any colour of justice , exempt themselves from the Authority of that Church that enjoys it : an Authority , which , if ever she had , and such as she claims it , is of so unchangeable a nature , being constituted by God , being the rock on which the salvation of mankind is built , and the fundamental stone of the Church , no time nor variation of material accidents can prejudice or prescribe against it . Wherfore , if Protestants at first departed unjustifiably , they remain for ever guilty of the same crime , til they restore themselves to the Primitive union . Again , who , unles he had renounc'd all morality , ever call'd it liberty , not to know , or not be bound to the rules and principles of good life ? Sure these objectors either think religion concerns not good life , but is a vain and empty Idea in the air , little important whether it be known or no : or forget themselves so far , as to fall into the sequel of this gross absurdity . Besides , who can be so desperatly passionate , as to term it liberty , to have no good government ; and relaps again to the rude state of barbarousnes , where murther , rapes , & a thousand intolerable insolencies are publikly permitted ? For , if we cast our eys on the End of Religion , we shall see , that to want the due Rules , is as inconvenient towards the direction of mankind to final beatitude , as the Laws of Canibals are destructive to all civil and friendly society . So that 't is to be ignorant of all reason , to cry up a liberty to have no Religion , or to chuse one indifferently , as unconcern'd whether it be right or wrong . Were it not better plainly to avow the preferrence of the pleasures and profits of this world , before hopes so far off as the future life ; then , with these ambushes , to ensnare unwary souls into the same inconveniencies , under title of a probable Religion ? And truly , if we look upon their lives , we shall find that hoc Janus summus ab imo Personat . I intend not by this any waies to derogate from the old Roman vertues , in this sort of people , as if there may not be found Regulus's , or Cato's , or Seneca's among them : for , I doubt not but the very vapour of Christianity has this wholsom effect among whom it passes , to breed in them as Heroick spirits as ancient Rome ever saw , and more too , if the like occasions presented themselves : But Nature , and Generosity , and Opinion , too often challenge their shares , or rather mastery , in such actions ; and how little can justly be ascribed to the hope of heaven , I rather suspect then declare . To return therfore to our discourse . The Jew , the Turke , the Heathen , can pretend a profession of his Religion ; for all these stick to such conclusions as their principles afford them : But the Christian , who cals Christs doctrin his , and confesses that he or his Sect has deserted those who alone pretend to the successive livery and seisin of it , can no way presume to the possession , till he plainly demonstrate the clearness of his title . Wherfore , it avails not any drowsie , rather then quiet , nature , to say his Father , ( and peradventure Grandfather ) was Protestant before him , and therfore he is Possessor bonae fidei , whilst he pretends only probable arguments : for so long he implies the possession to be unjustly detain'd from the advers party , who has the actual receit by succession ; especially when this so unparalleld a Riot is committed without susficient evidence , by the very Actors confession . A Protestant then , has no better claim to posse●sion of Christs Doctrine , by his so long continuance in Heresie , then the Parricide in Aristotle , who , having beaten his Father pleaded that his Father had beat his Grandfather , and his Grandfather his great Grandfather : as though such a graceless entail could prejudice the law of Nature . Though not so absurd , yet as weak is another Objection taken from the Jewish Cabala : however , it seems worthy of thanks to the Suggestor . What it was , is not hard to guess , our Saviour himself having given us the hint of it , when he reproach'd the Jews for following the Traditions of their Fathers or Elders , to the ruin of Gods commands . But to decipher it better , I ought to divide it into matter and form . The form I call the Rules : the matter , what was deliver'd or found out by these Rules . As for the matter , it seems in some way proportion'd to the proceedings of certain of our Divines , who pretend to be mysticall ; and their imployment is , in the sublime mysteries of our Faith , to invent or imagin what they think congruous circumstances , to move the affections to petty devotion : which imaginations , as they are fram'd out of good intentions , so have they many weaknesses , and little or no doctrin in them . Conformable to this we may conceive that , after there were no more Prophets among the Jews , ( who fail'd them , not long after the second building of their Temple ) the Rabbins began to frame explications on their Books of holy Scripture , and the mysteries learn'd from the Prophets . These interpretations , according to the degree of their skil and prudence , some perform'd better , some worse . But , as the Jews were a superstitious and ignorant Nation , not having principles of true knowledg naked before their Eys , but wrapt up in Metaphors and Allegories ; all together went among them for sound Law. Til , after our Saviours time , and the dispersion of that generation , some foolish knave , to give authority to this mess of good and bad jumbled together , invented the story how Moses had deliver'd this doctrin to the Sanhedrin , and they had conserv'd it , by traditional conveyances from Father to Son. A story as impossible and incredible , to one who penetrates into the carriage of that Nation , as the Fables of Jeoffrey of Monmouth , and King Arthur's conquering Hierusalem . Now , if we look into the form , we shal find it more ridiculous then any Gypses canting , or the jugling of Hocus Pocus , and as pernicious to true Doctrin , as any Pseudomancy . To make good this censure , I shal in short describe their form : it consists in inventing the sense of Scripture by three abuses of the Letter , which ( as far as my memory servs me , for I have not the books necessary ) are these . One by taking every letter of a word , for a whole word beginning with that letter : Another , by changing letters , according to certain rules fram'd by themselvs : The third , to find numbers of years or other things , by the numbers which the letters of the word compound , in such Languages where their letters are used for cyphers . So much being deliver'd in short , I cannot conceive any indifferent judgment so blunt , that he sees not how far these ridling ways of explication are from the natural intention of a Writer ; and how destructive to all truth , if used otherwise then for pleasure and as a disport of chance and encounter . Our Country man , Doctor Alablaster , invented a far more convenient trick , by purely dividing words and joyning the ends of the former to the beginnings of the following : as we also do , somtimes in English , to disguise common words ; and the Hebrew is far more apt for such knacks . But he found this age too subtle , to cozen any considerable number with such trivial bables : Wheras the Cahala gain'd upon the Valentinians and Gnosticks , to build prodigious errours , in very good earnest , upon their more ridiculous invention . I am not ignorant some eminent persons have been pleased somtime , to give way to such toyes , through luxury of wit and gayety of humour : But it is one thing to play for recreation , and a far different to establish a Basis of Faith and doctrin , which is abominable , on such Chimerical dreams . And yet , this it is our Opposer would Father , upon no less then Moses and the Sanhedrin and all the sacred Magistracy of the old Law. Let us give a step farther and see , if it were true , how like it were to our case . The Tradition we speak of , is the publick preaching and teaching and practice exercised in the Church , setled by the Apostles thorow the World : This Cabala , a doctrin pretended , as deliver'd to few , with strict charge to keep it from publicity , and so communicate it again successively to a select Committee of a few ; wherein you may see as fair an opportunity for jugling and cozenage , as , in our case there is impossibility . The Moderns therfore , who profess Cabala , may say they receiv'd it from their predecessors : but they can yeild no account why any Age may not have chang'd that which was in the breasts of few shut up together in a chamber ; and so ther 's no possibility of farther assurance , then the vote of a Council of State , for its being deriv'd any higher . But the Arguer demands , whether they cannot ask me , In what age or year their doctrin was corrupted ? And I answer , they may very boldly : But , if I assign an age or year , can they acquit themselvs in point of proof ? clearly they cannot : for , since there was no Register nor visible effects of this doctrin ( it being forbidden to be divulg'd ) 't is evident , that cannot convince it was not corrupted in that year or age . He urges farther , the notoriousness of the ly , so impudent as few would venture on : not reflecting that he speaks of a secret , altogether incapable of notoriousness . May not they add , says he , the dispersion of their Churches through so many Countries and Languages ? I yeild they may , but to no purpose , unless they continue Sanhedrins in every Country : For otherwise , this dispersion will prove but the derivation from their Council of Tiberias , or such like time , which is nothing to the succession from Moses . Add to this , that the Nation since Christs time , is infamous for falsifying doctrins and corrupting Scriptures : and , even in our Saviours time and long before , their Rabbins were justly branded with the foul imputation of frequent forgery ; their Sects and heresies being grown up to that desperate height , as to deny there were any spirits , or shall be any Resurrection , which is the very top of impiety . But ( what is no less to be consider'd , then any thing yet offer'd ) the very subject of the question is different . The Church , we speak of , is a vast and numerous body , spread o're the world ; and he must be a mad man that would go about to deny this Body has remain'd perpetually visible , from Christs time to ours : however some Heretick may pretend the invisible part , viz. that the Faith has been interrupted . But , for the Sanhedrin , what assurance , nay what probability is there of deriving its pedegree , from Moses to the daies of our Saviour ? In all their oppressions during the time of the Judges , in the division of the Tribes , in the raign of their Kings , in the captivity , first of the ten , then of the two other Tribes , very little mention of any such Magistrate , much less evidence of a perfect continuance . How far then , are we from having any certainty of a doctrin's succession , by them , of whom 't is very obscure , whither any such persons were or no ? A third objection is collected , from the natural proness in Mankind to conserve Tradition ; by which they intend to shew Religion is corrupted : Wherin you may note the force of wit and Logick , to draw arguments against a truth , even out of these very causes , which are made to conserve the truth impugned . The arguments are three . First , that divers Fathers , for zeal to the received doctrin , were very earnest against the belief of the Antipodes , which , new , is an ocular certainty . That divers Fathers did oppose that doctrin , I willingly grant : but that it was for zeal to Religion , and not through the opinion of absurdity in Philosophy , I am not satisfy'd , nor does the Author bring any proof . I remember they object , as absurd , that men should stand feet to feet ; I remember they conceit those under us would fal into heaven ; for the rest , some places of Scripture are alledg'd ; so that , not our of zeal to Tradition , but through misunderstanding the Scripture , they fel into this errour . Yet I deny not there may , perhaps , be some argument out of Religion ; as men confirm their opinions from all they can . The second proof , I imagin touches the History of Virgilius ; who , for a like opinion , is reported to have lost his Bishoprick . But 't is a mistake ; for that holy man was no Bishop when he was charg'd with this errour , That he held there was another Sun and Moon , belonging to the hemisphere opposite to us , and a new world : nor is it certain , whether truly he thought so , or recanted , or was falsly accus'd ; but wel known he was afterward made Bishop , and lived and dyed with opinion of sanctity . But though the two first proofs are slender , the third wil require more strength to resist it ; and therfore 't is especially recommended to the Reader , to look on the place : it being in a Council and our own proper confession , and so apparently strong and altogether insoluble ; if the Author be inexpugnabilis Dialecticus , as well as St. Augustine , in his Burlesque phrase . Thus then begins this Onset , which our Adversary manages with as much civility as strength . I wil also desire you ( says he ) to look into the 584. Page of the Florentine Council , set out by Binius : and there you wil find , that the Latins confess they added to the Creed , the procession of the holy Ghost from the Son , because the contrary opinion seem'd to them , by consequence , opposite to a confes'd Tradition of Christs eternal Divinity : which yet appears by what Cardinal Perron has excellently shown , not to be contradictory to Faith , but that this consequence was ill drawn : which may have been in other points too , and so have brought in no smal number of errours ; since neither was their Logick certain to conclude better , nor were they less apt to add to their Creeds accordingly , at any other times , then they were at that . Thus far the charge : And I have been obsequious to so ingenious a request ; as wil , I hope , appear by my answer , if I first wash my hands from Cardinal Perron , with whom I do not engage : nor need I , since the Council has age and can speak for it self . As also , by the way , note that , since the addition of Filióque , ( which was about the year 440 , in St. Leo's time ) there has not any tittle been added to the Churches Creed ; though very many Heresies have been condemn'd . So that the Objector is forward in his assertions , without seconding them with solid proofs . To come now to the Combate , I doubt much he , who was so sollicitous to have me look into the Council , was not so careful as to cast an eye upon it himself : Else he would have found , the question had not been of adding the words Filióque , or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , but of the using them ; the adding having been for the controversy with Photius , the using for the expression of our belief ; which the Council says , consists in two points ; First , that the Divinity is the same in all the three Persons , that is , there is not three Divinities in three Persons , nor yet one Divinity from which the Persons or Personalities be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 different , and not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . The Second , that none should have any cause to suspect the holy Ghost to be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Wherfore , the insufficiency of the consequence , which ( he says ) Cardinal Perron demonstrates , is not to our purpose ; no such inference appearing in the Council : the Latins or Roman Church only professing that , if the holy Ghost did not proceed out of the Father and the Son , as one principium or cause , then the Divinity were divided in the Father and Son , and , by consequence , in the Holy Ghost too , and so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as the Council speaks . Whence , we may see , the Opponent mistook the whole case , there being no question of the cause of adding , but of what was express'd ; nor any dispute of Christs Divinity , but of the Vnity of the Divinity with the Persons and in it self ; Nor any drawing of consequences , but an expression of Catholick doctrin ; nor any supposed errour , but a truth confess'd both by Protestants and us : and finally , the words are said to be used , to express this point , that He proceeds from the Son ; and not question'd why the opinion is held , that He proceeds from the Son , which is far different from what we now contend about . There is another objection , and Cardinal Perron made the Author , as having reported , out of Isidore , that the Jews complotted together to abolish the book of Wisdom , because it spake too plainly of Christ. The story the Objector himself wil not avouch , because it would rank the Book ( by him pretended to be Apocryphal ) too high : yet , though it be acknowledg'd fals , he conceives it strong enough against us , because it shews such a thing might be done . Let us poize a little the weight of this Argument : It might have been done ; therfore your Tradition may fail you . First I demand , how you prove it might have been done ; because Isidore said it was done . The Spanish Conquerors , when first they enter'd the miracles of the Western World , reported , They climb'd up great hils in the Sea : Therfore was it possible ? They talk't much of waters which restor'd Youth : Therfore it is credible ? But Isidore's authority convinces this . If it were Isidore the holy Bishop of Sevil , somthing were said : But 't is Isidore , surnamed Mercator , one that collects and patches together truths and falsities , almost indifferently ; at least our men spare not to reject him in matters of great moment . Thus the bare possibility , that it might have been done , is not , it self , yet , sufficiently prov'd . But let us pass that , and , without much straining our charity , grant among Jews it might have been done , as not a few think the very Law was lost in the times of their wicked Kings or other oppressions : what inference can they make against Christian Tradition ? Of Books of Scripture , peradventure there was a time , when some one , or rather any one might have been lost ; because it was in few hands : shall we therfore conclude the same possibility of suppression , when we treat of Doctrins universally profest by so many Millions ? when we dispute of Practices every day frequented by the whole Church . Stil ther 's one jarring string , that grates my ears with its loud discord ; though the stroak come not from the hand of these objectors , yet I wil endeavour to put it in tune . Some sick heads roving up and down in their extravagant phansies wil needs entertain a wild conjecture , that at first our Saviour was indeed stil'd God , and though the learned , who had the knack of distinguishing , knew wel enough the inward meaning then signify'd only a most eminent aud god-like person , yet the common People understanding their Preacher simply , as the letter sounded , came by degrees universally to believe his true and real divinity . But with what ingenuity can such rambling wits think the chief Principle of Christianity should be so negligently taught ? or accuse so many holy Saints of those purest times to be such deceitful Teachers ? Besides , did not their rashness blind them , they would easily see the raising the Person of Christ , from humane to divine , would necessarily infer a notorious change in the solemn Prayers of the Church and daily devotion of the People , which certainly would give so great a stroak to both , it could not possibly be attempted , either undiscern'd or unresisted . Lastly the Christian Faith being delivered not in a set form of words , but in sense a thousand ways explicated & enforc'd according to the variety of occasions and capacity of the learners : how can any ambiguity of phrase endanger them into a mistake , who attend not so much to the dead letter , as the quickning sense , so variously exprest , so often incultated to them by their masters ? THE FIFTEENTH ENCOUNTER , Declaring the state of this Question , Whether the Scripture can decide controversies ? THere remains yet a second part of our Apology ; for , as this is the Catholicks principle to adhere to the authority of the Church , that is , to the living word written in their Breasts , which governs all their actions relating to religion : so on the other side , whoever have at any time , ( under the pretence of reformation ) oppos'd her Authority , such have constantly rais'd up their Altar against Tradition , upon the dead letter of the Scriptures : Which , as the Catholick Church highly reverences , when they are animated by the interpretation of Tradition ; so , by too much experience , she knows they become a killing letter , when abus'd , against the Catholick sense , in the mouths of the Devil and his Ministers . But , before we set our feet within the lists , I am bound to take notice of an opposition , no less common then slight and absurd : and this it is . When we retire to Tradition , after both parties have lost their breath in beating the aerial outside of Scripture , they presently cry out , Cannot Aristotle , cannot Plato make themselves be understood ? why then should not the Bible , as wel , determine Controversies ? If this were not after sixteen hundred years of experience , after so much pains of our own , since Luthers time , idly cast away , in tossing the windy balls of empty words , without coming to resolution of any one point , peradventure it were pardonable : but now , alas , what can it be , but an obstinate desire of darkness and a contempt of Gods Law and truth , by a bold and irrational assertion and loud clamours to beat down the Catholick Church ; like Dametas in the Poem , striking with both hands and his whole strength , but winking all the while ? Let us , therfore open our Eys and look thorow this objection , Cannot Plato and Aristotle make themselvs be understood ? Yes ; but what then ? Ergo the Scripture can determine controversies ? The supposition wherin all venom ly's is conceal'd ; which thus I display : As Aristotle wrote of Physicks and Metaphysicks , so the Scripture was written of those controversies which since are risen among Christians : But Plato and Aristotle can make themselvs be understood concerning those Sciences : therfore the Scripture can do as much concerning these Controversies . This ought to be the discourse . But had it been cloth'd in so thin and transparent a dress , the Authors would have blusht to thrust it into light : For , t is a most shameless Proposition , to say the Scriptures were written of the Controversies , long after their date , sprung up in the Christian world . Beginning from Genesis to the Apocalyps , let them name one Book , whose theme is any , now-controverted , Point betwixt Protestants and Catholiks . T is true , the intent and extrinfical end of writing St. Johns Gospel was , to shew the Godhead of Christ , which the Arians afterward deny'd , but that is not so directly his theme , as the miraculous life of our Saviour , from whence the Divinity of his Person was to be deduc'd : and yet the design so unsuccessful , that never any Heresy was more powerful , then that which oppos'd the truth intended by His Book . But , I suppose , their reply wil be , they purpose not to say the Scripture was written of our present controversies , but of the precepts of good life and Articles of Faith necessary to them , about which our controversies arise . If this be their meaning , their Assumption is as ridiculous , as , in the other , their Major or chief Proposition . For , their argument must be framed thus . As Scripture was written of the necessaries to good life ; so Aristotle and Plato , of Physicks and Metaphysicks : But Aristotle and Plato writ so plainly , that all questions , rising about their doctrin , can be declared out of their words : therfore all questions relating to good life , may also be clear'd out of Scriptures . Wherin the Minor is so ridiculous to any that have but open'd a Book of Philosophy , that 't is enough , not only to disanul the proof , but discredit the Author . And yet were it true , the consequence would not hold : For whoever considers what belongs to the explication of Authors , knows , there is a great advantage to discern the sense of those who proceed scientifically , above the means to understand one that writes loose Sentences . An Archimedes , an Euclid , a Vitruvius wil be of far easier interpretation , where the Subject is of equal facility , then a Theognis , Phocyllides , or Antoninus , because the antecedents and consequents do , for the most part , force a sense on the middle propositions , of themselvs ambiguous . Now , the works of Plato and Aristotle are generally penn'd , though not always so rigorously , yet stil with an approach to the Mathematical way : The Scripture uses a quite different method , delivering its precepts without connexion betwixt one another . And though I deny not but , peradventure , the Articles of our belief have , in themselvs as much connexion , as the severest discourses of those Philosophers : yet the style , wherin they are couch'd in the Bible , is accommodated to vulgar capacities , and the delivery by way of plain and direct affirmation , without attending to the artificial rules of demonstration . But , because no controversy can be clear and fit for decision , unless it be prepar'd by an exact and rigorous stating the Question ; I first intend to set down my own sentiment , which I conceive is also that of the Catholick Church : and afterward what I collect to be the opinion of my Adversaries ; leaving them this free and just liberty , to correct me if I mistake their mind . First then , we Catholiks no way doubt but the Scripture is the word of God , and of infallible truth , if rightly understood : and that whoever , being out of the Church , receives the Scripture in that quality ; the ground of such reception ( if rational ) can be no other , then because we taught him so , and deliver'd it to him , as such . For I do not intend to dispute against those Spiritati , who , by an Enthusiastical light , can judge of Scripture without sense and reason : And , to those , who pretend either Fathers or other Christians out of our Church , I answer , my meaning is to comprehend in our Church the Fathers ; for so goes our position ; and consequently all Sects either receiv'd the Scripture immediately from us , or from those who received it from us . Secondly , we doubt not but the Scripture is highly profitable , for the enablement of Preachers to teach , reprove , confirm , in all points of Catholik doctrin , both concerning Speculation and Practice : and by consequence that the Church were not so thoroughly furnisht for all kind of exigenccis without it ; for which reason it is of particular usefulness , and indeed necessity to the Church . Thirdly , we confesse the Bible contains all parts of Catholik Doctrine , in this sense , that all Catholik doctrin may be found there , by places and arguments be deducted thence , nay more , be topically or Oratorially proved out of it : so that , if an able Preacher be in a Pulpit , where he speaks without contradiction , with a full and free scope ; he may , meerly discoursing out of Scripture , carry any point of Catholik doctrin before the generality of his Auditory , and convince at the present such a part of them , as either are but indifferently speculative , or have not taken pains in the question . Fourthly , I affirm , that if any point be brought to an eristicall decision before Judges , where the parties on both sides are obstinately bent to defend their own positions , by all the art they can imagin : so the question be not , which part is true , but only which is more or less conformable to Scripture ; the Catholik position may be victoriously evidenced , by arguments purely drawn from thence , compared and valued according to true Criticism ; without ayd of Fathers , explications , or any other extrinsecal helps . Thus far I esteem all good Catholiks ought to hold ; and believe that all , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , doe , de facto , hold . Now then , to come to the true difference betwixt our Adversaries and us : I understand it consists in this , That having stated a material point , ( as whether that which we see and touch in the Eucharist be truly Christs body , or only a figure of it , it self remaining substantially Bread ) and that this question be to be handled contentiously before Judges , each party pretending to convince and demonstrate , by quotation of places critically exalted to their highest force : whether the Scripture ( I say ) be a sufficient Storehouse to furnish either side with Texts , unavoidable and convincing beyond any shadow of reply ; in the judgement of sworn and expert judges , who are wel practis'd what convincing signifies , and how much the various acceptions of words and mutability of meanings import in the construction of sentences . This is that wherin I engage the Catholik Negative ; and suppose all Adversaries must hold the Affirmative . And the first reason of my supposition is , because I never see them attempt any other way of disputing , but out of Scripture : nor yet , in that , do they use so fair play , as to put the places which favour them on the page of receipts , and those which Catholiks bring to the contrary upon that of expences ; and then having by rules of good Criticism examined the qualities of both , prefer that party which is more deserving . Next , I know not how that man dare shew his face before any person of common sense , who shal first acknowledg he goes against the opinion of the whole present Age wherin he lives , against the undoubted testimony of a thousand years before him , against the known laws both spiritual and temporal , publikely renouncing all obedience to all kinds of Magistrate , empower'd by God and Man with just authority to conserve those laws ; that shal accuse all his kindred , Ancestors , and whole Country of blindness and ignorance , and pretend all the world is bound to desert them and follow him : and this in a matter , concerning no less an interest then Eternity : and after all this so arrogant bawling and high demands , being ask'd what evidence , what proof he can bring to introduce so great a mutation in the world , shal be forc'd to confess , he can but play at cross and pile with them , to know which of the two sentences is true , which fals . For , setting aside real and irrefragable conviction , what is there left in speculation , but meer contingency ? Now this strange boldness , this incredible presumption was undeniably Luthers case : and if his , then certainly all his followers : For , neither is the weight and authority of so many ages become less pressing and efficacious against his adherents , nor their first plea improved or amended , but rather weaken'd : if by his and all his fellows labours , as yet no evidence is produced ( an infallible sign none is likely ever to be made : ) Nor is the change of temporal laws and Princes any motive , to him that goes upon pure reason , and seriously ayms at the good of his soul. Again , he whose discours is not convincing , and yet wil be medling with truths of highest importance , is either ignorant of that defect , and then he deserves the name of a rash temerarious fellow that dares , in a matter of such consequence advance Propositions ( by passion or precipitation ) whose quality himself understands not : or else he knows he does not convince ; then let him at the beginning of his Sermon express so much , and tel his Auditors , he is come to speak to them concerning their salvation , and propose new Tenets about it ; but , in very deed , he can neither prove the old Tenets are false , nor those which he shall propose , to be true : Can any one think , if the Auditory have either wit enough to discover so grosse an Impostor , or never so little honesty to care what becoms of their souls , or love to Christianity ; they wil not with great indignation pull his jump o're his eares , and tumble him out of his Pulpit ? Now what difference is there ( so the mischief be done ) whether it be foretold the people or no ; saving that , to conceal the wrong , is a more wicked and destructive piece of cunning ? Another consideration is , that in practical things , more probability approaches to certainty , and , by multiplication , contingencie at last begets perfect Necessity ; but , in speculation , not so . For , as there is more probability to throw seven upon two dice , in forty trials then in foure : so , in five hundred , most certainly that cannot fail to be the cast : the reason is , because the number of casting so exceeds the variety of chances , that it makes first a difficulty , and after an impossibility of missing . Now , in speculation , if no particular cause precisely compel , and determine the effect , variety can prevail nothing ; so that , rigorously speaking a conclusion is no neerer being true , for a hundred unconvincing Arguments , then for one : whence it follows , where there is no demonstration , neither Opinion is securely the better . He therfore that pretends the introduction of a change in a speculative point , ought either to promise evidence and conviction , or else content himself with silence : for 't is absurd to move any one to change his assent ( I speak not here of a practicall resolution ) without promising him some abetterment . Lastly , as far as I can penetrate , he that has a changeable and uncertain Religion , has none at all . For , I conceive a Religion ( as we now discourse of it ) is the knowledge by which we are to guide our selves in our way and progress towards eternal felicity : so that , if the Religion any one professes be not the true , he cannot by its principles perform what is requisite to the gaining of that end : Neither is any knowledge which such a Probablist has , the right and proper means of cultivating his soul in order to future happiness ; and therfore it is as imposs●ble an untrue Religion should lead to Heaven , as a fals way , to London . Now , if a Religion that is not true , be no Religion , he that doubts whether he has the true , is in doubt whether he has any Religion or none ; and he that pretends no farther then to doubt about Religion , pretends not to know he has any : but , the act of knowing cannot be had , if he that has it , does not know he has it ; therfore he that pretends not to know he has a Religion , confesses himself to have none . The same is clear in practice . For suppose an Apothecary had compos'd a drug for his Patient ; but being incertain whether to administer it like a potion or a glister , should sometimes give it one way , sometimes the other : or a Guide , having undertaken to conduct a Stranger thorow some untroden Wildernes , & for want of assurance which way to take , should lead him up and down as in a Maze , first to the left hand , then to the right : were not these excellent Masters in their crafts , and worthy of continual imployment ; but with this condition , that they practised their Arts upon none but one another ? Then , if Religion be the knowledge of conducting our souls to heaven ; is not he like to make good speed , that acknowledges himself incertain of the way ? who to day marches forwards , and to morrow goes as much backward ; to day confesses and adores Christ in the Eucharist , to morrow blasphemes him , and damns all that adore him ; to day prays to Saints , bears respect to a Crucifix , and a compassion to the dead , to morrow cries out against all , as Idolatry , Superstition , and meer inventions of lucre ? Still there remains with me one other scruple about this point . Divers great Brains have undertaken the commendations of things , which mankind , is so far from delighting in , that very few can endure them ; ( this aversion rising out of a judgement , not taken up by humour , but taught by nature , which justly abhors all that diminishes or destroys its being ) , as Blindness , Folly , Sickness , and the like : and contrived many perswasive forms and witty inducements , to invegle their Auditory into an evident absurdity . Others we find , who , by whole Sects , maintain'd that all propositions were indifferent ; and their practice was , of every subject to speak copiously and plausibly on both sides : and this in good earnest , out of a setled belief that they could make which side they pleasd the more probable . I ask then , whether the probability either of these two sorts of wits bring for their paradoxes , be sufficient to chuse a point in Religion ? If you say , I ; What imports it in any point which part you take , that is , whether you have any Religion or none ? If you say , no ; what means do you prescribe us to know when a probability is great enough ; or , who 's he that is able to judge the degrees of probability , when they are sufficient , and when not ? Peradventure you may say , In the first case , the evidence of nature shews their probability to be clearly absurd : and I could answer , why may not Nature sometimes be deceiv'd , as Anaxagoras would perswade us , when he maintain'd Snow was black ? but I need not ; 'T is enough to remember , The questions of Religion are concerning actions whose effects appear not to us ; and yet , ordinarily the effects are the chief means to frame arguments , and produce certainty , in practice , that the cause is right . 'T is enough to remember eternall blisse belongs to the next world ; and the Mysterys we dispute , are such as the Son of God only has seen and brought us tydings of . But , what wil you say to the second sort of disputers , who equall all probabilities ; and are men , against whose eloquence , erudition , and prudence in other things , you cannot except ? To all this I can yet add one plain but very confiderable reflexion ; that certainly , to prove any position , those wild capricious Brains cannot find weaker places for their arguments , then a mute , ambiguous , dead writing , not quickned with reason and discourse : which yet , is the boasted ground of all that renounce the infallibility of the Church , in matters of supernaturall belief . THE SIXTEENTH ENCOUNTER . Examining five Texts brought for the sufficiency of Scripture . THe case thus stated , we have won the field : If I have err'd in framing the question , let them correct it , with these two conditions , that they propose it so , as to leave themselves a Rel●gion , and different from ours : for unless both these subsist , the quarrel betwixt us is at an end . But if I have rightly exprest the point in controversie , let them bring one place of Scripture that comes home to the question , and carry the Bays . Their position must include these two branches : That Scripture is intended for a ground to decide Controversies in such a contentious way as I have set down : and sufficient to perform this charge . For the former I dare confidently affirm , there is not in the whole Bible an expression so much as glances towards it . And though the second includes the first , and can have no verity nor subsistence without it ; yet since there are some who discovering not the first , can perswade themselves they finde the second , we wil try how solidly they proceed . First then , they cite certain Texts in which they say , the Scripture gives us salvation : But there is a wide difference betwixt giving salvation , and being the whol means or adequat cause of it , which is the point to be maintain'd , if they wil prove the Scripture sufficient ; else all Faith , Sacraments , good works , preaching , &c. must be absolutely excluded as unnecessary , since of every one of them may be said , it gives salvation . Whence in common already appears these arguments are so weak and defective , they carry not half way home to our question : Yet let 's see at least how far they reach . In the fifth of St. John , Christ bids the Jews search the Scriptures , because you think ( saith he ) you have eternal life in them . Our Saviour was discoursing there of such as bore witness to him : and having nam'd his Father and St. John , at last he descends to the Scripture and tells them to this purpose , You think to have life in the Scriptures ; though you deceive your selvs in that opinion ; for you have only the killing letter , and not the verifying spirit : Nevertheless search them , for they bear witness that I am the true life , to whom you will not through want of charity and love of God have recours to seek it . Therfore you refuse me , who come in the name of my Father , a sign of Truth , because I seek not mine own interest : But you will receive Antichrist or some other who shall come in his own name , which is a mark of deceit and falshood , so pervers are you . This is our Saviours discours : of all which to this argument belong only these words , You think you have life in the Scriptures ; that is , ( if I understand the Text ) you deceive your selvs , if you think you have life in them ; which surely must needs be a very strong reason to prove , Scriptures give salvation : though if the question were not of the Text , I should make no difficulty of the conclusion . And it may be noted that our Saviour descends to the proof of Scripture , in the last place : putting Miracles the first , as motives able to convert Sodom and Gomorrha : in the second Preaching , specially they shewing some good affection to their Preacher St. John : Lastly , the mute words of Scripture . And as for St. John , our Saviour expresly says he cites him , in condescendence to them , that they might be the rather moved to embrace the truth , by that esteem they had already entertain'd of their Preacher . Wheras for Scripture there was only their own conceit , which our Saviour seems to reprove as an humoursom and froward obstinacy , that they would not be convinc'd by the palpable demonstration of his Miracles ( the easiest and surest way ) nor rest upon the preaching of his Precursor , whom themselvs confess to be a Prophet ; nor lastly make a diligent search without prejudice , into Scripture , which , if interpreted with charity and humility , might have led them to him and salvation . The next place is John 20. These things are written that you may belive that Jesus is the Son of God , and believing may have life in his name . T is true both Scripture and Faith give life ; but not the least mention made here of any such quality in either of them . This only is declar'd that the end of St. Johns writing the Gospel was not to make a compleat History either of our Saviours Acts or doctrin ; but only to specify such particulars as prove that Christ was the true consubstantial Son of God : to keep them out of the Heresy then beginning to rise , that they might continue true believers in the Church of God , live according to its Rules and be saved by so living , that is , by being true Christians or Jesuits ; which is certainly the sense of these words , in his name , or , in the name of Jesus , as to be baptiz'd in the name of Jesus , signify's to be enroll'd among the company known to be his . Now from this Text we may clearly collect that St. Johns Gospel was not written by the Authors intention for any such end as the argument urges : Nor , that it gives life , more then this one Article does , that Jesus is the true son of God ; Nor yet that this Article gives life , but that life is to be had in the name of Christ , whatever these words signify : Only it may be infer'd that life cannot be had without this Article ; but not that this alone is able to give life , or that it cannot be believ'd without St. Johns Gospel , or that St. Johns Gospel of it self is sufficient to give life without the concurrence of Tradition . So that there is no appearance from this proposition that life either can be attain'd by Scripture alone , or cannot be had without it . The third Text is out of 2 Tim. chap. 3. That the Scriptures are able to make him wise to salvation through the faith of Jesus Christ. The paraphrase of the place , as I understand it , is , O Timothy ! be constant in the doctrin I have taught thee ; and this for two reasons ; One common to all converted by me , because thou knowest who I am that deliver'd it to thee ; This is the first and principal reason , the authority of the Teacher : Another peculiar to thee , because from thy infancy , thou art vers'd in the holy Scriptures , which are proper to make thee wise and understanding in the law of Jesus Christ , or to promote and improve thy salvation , which is obtained by the faith of Jesus . So that , he speaks not of Timothy's becomming a Christian , but his becomming a through furnisht ( or extraordinary ) Christian , a Doctor and Preacher . And the ground on which I build this explication is derived from the words following , where the Apostle expresses this vertue of the Scriptures being profitable to teach and reprove ; as also from this consideration that the sequel , Be constant to my words or Doctrin , because the Scripture can teach thee the truth of Christs doctrin , is not very exact , but rather opposite to the former , and plainly inducing the contrary ; as if one should argue , Follow not my doctrin , because mine , but because the Scripture teaches thee it : which directly contradicts the intention of the Apostle , as appears in the vers immediatly precedent , Be stedfast in those things thou hast learnt , knowing by whom thou wert instructed ; wheras this other discourse is perfectly consequential , Stand to my doctrin because the Scripture confirms and seconds it , making thee able to defend and prove by arguments , what I have simply taught thee to be true , by the sole evidence of Miracles , which beget Faith , not Science . But to grant our Adversary the less proper sense and consequence , that the Scripture was to contribute to the salvation of Timothy himself ; still ther 's an equivocation in those words , through , or by the faith of Iesus Christ : which may be refer'd to those , ( to make thee understanding ) Either so , that the sense be , The Scriptures ( in which thou hast been vers'd since thy infancy ) will contribute to thy salvation , so that thou understand them according to the Faith of Iesus Christ which I have orally deliver'd to thee ; and this is , in direct terms , the Catholick Rule , that the interpretation of Scripture is to be govern'd by Tradition or by the faith and doctrin so receiv'd , and formally depends from the first words , Remain constant to my doctrin : Or , by another explication , which is more material and flat and most incredible , That the old Scripture ( for of that only the Apostle speaks , no other being written while Timothy was a child ) should be able , without relation to the knowledg of Christ by other means to make a man understanding enough to be saved by the Faith of Him ; as may be seen by Sr. Peters being sent to Cornelius . So that , of these three senses , the first is nothing to our adversaries purpose , and nevertheless is the best ; The second positively and highly against him : the third incoherent to the words precedent and following , and in it self , an incredible proposition . But give it the greatest force the words can , by any art , be heightned to , they come nothing neer the state of the question proposed which concerns the decision of all quarrels carried on by litigious parties : Whereas this Text is content with any sufficiency at large to bring men to salvation : a point not precisely now controverted betwixt us . Besides Timothy being already a Christian , 't is a pure folly to think the Apostle sent him to the Scriptures to chuse his Religion . The words immediatly following the place explicated are urged for a new Argument : They are these : All Scripture is inspired from God ; and profitable to teach , to reprove , to correct , to instruct in justice , ( that is , good life ) that the man of God become perfect , being furnisht to every good work . The paraphrase , according to my skil is thus , The holy Writ I spake of , is any Book inspir'd from God , and profitable to teach things unknown , reprehend what is amiss , to set straight what is crooked , to instruct in good life ; that the Church of God , or any member therof , may become perfect , being , by instructions and reprehensions applyed out of Scripture , by such preachers as Timothy , fitted to any good work or all kinds of good works . This I conceive the natural meaning and most conformable to the Text , were we to seek the interpretation of it indifferently , without any eye to our present controversy . And in this sense , 't is a cleer case , the Apostle speaks of the benefit of Scripture , when explicated and apply'd by a Preacher , in order to the perfecting of those that hear him . But if , by importunity the adversary will needs have it , that the Scripture should give the quality of being 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to the person himself that reads it ; to content him , I shall not hinder him of his mind , but only prove it nothing to his purpose : For still this must be the sense , that it produces in the reader the excellencies requir'd in a Preacher , namely to make him do all those good works which are expected of him ; as teaching , reprehending , &c. so that one way or other , still the Scripture is apply'd to furnish him with Precepts , Arguments , Examples , and such like instruments of perswasion : but of giving the first Catechism , or binding ones self Apprentice to the Bible , to learn the first rudiments of Christian profession , ther 's not the least word or syllable that colours for such a conceit : nor can it indeed consist with the direct meaning of the place ; since the being already a Christian , is plainly suppos'd in Timothy , by St. Pauls institutions viva voce , before any exhortation to this use of Scripture . So that , here is no question concerning the first choyce of Faith , but of perfection after Faith : much less any mention of convincing in foro contentioso , about which is all our controversy . Another place is Acts 26. where St. Paul , defending himself before Agrippa and Festus , against the Jews accusation , who calumniated him that he spake in derogation of the Law , and brought in a new doctrin to the disturbance of the people ; made only this answer , that he preach'd nothing but what the Prophets had foretold . His words are these : The Iews for this ( teaching Christs doctrin ) finding me in the Temple , would have kill'd me : But I having obtain'd succonr from God until this very day have persisted testifying ( or protesting ) to great and little , that I spoke nothing but what the Prophets and Moses had foretold should come to pass ; as , that Christ was to suffer , that he was to be the first should rise from death to life , and preach light both to Iews and Gentils . This is the true interpretation of the Greek Text , as far as ly's in my power to explicate it , according to the intention of St. Paul. I deny not but the words singly taken may be interpreted , I have persisted testifying to great and little , and in my Sermons saying nothing but what &c. But this explication is neither so proper to his defence , nor at all advances the Adversaries cause : For since St. Paul tells us directly what the points are of which he spake ; whatever can be gathered out of them , only this is said , that these three points were foretold by Moses and the Prophets : and on the other side , the discours is imperfect , running thus , I preach'd indeed many other things , yet nothing but what was in Moses and the Prophets , to wit , that Christ was to suffer , &c. His meaning therfore is , that since he was in hold , his perpetual endeavours had been , to shew that these things he was accused to have preach'd against the law , were the very marrow of the Law and foretold by Moses and the Prophets : and that , wheras the Jews expected Christ to be a temporal King , who by force of Arms should restore the house of Israel , to a great and flourishing estate , the truth was quite contrary ; for , according to the doctrin of Moses and the Prophets , He was to be a passible man , to suffer death , afterwards to rise again triumphantly , as the first fruits of the Resurrection , and to send his Disciples both to Jews and Gentiles to spread the light of the Gospel throughout the world . What advantage against the necessity of Tradition , can be drawn out of this place of Scripture , which doth not so much as talk of the extent of Catholick doctrin , much less come within kenning of our Controversy , is beyond my reach : This I know , that , to say all points of Catholick doctrin can be sufficiently prov'd out of Moses and the Prophets , is an assertion I believe our Adversaries themselvs will deny ; as being both ridiculous in it self and absolutely discrediting the necessity of the new Testament : and yet clearly , without maintaining so gross absurdities , they can make no advantage of this Text. THE SEVENTEENTH ENCOUNTER . Examining such places as are brought against the admittance of any , but Scriptural proof in Religion . WE are at last come to those places in which they most glory , conceiting themselvs able by them utterly to destroy all Traditions : These are such as forbid to add or detract from the holy Scriptures : which , though commonly so explicated by Protestants , yet certainly cannot but appear to every child altogether impertinent to our controversy . For , t is a far different question , Whether we were bound to put no new or Apocryphal Books into the Canon ( which our adversaries charge us to have done ) or to take none out ( which we charge them to do ? ) from that now in debate , Whether there be any other means of assuring matters of Faith , beside the Bible ? or rather , Whether Scripture in an eristical and contentious way , be a Rule sufficient to decide all controversies in Religion ? Nevertheless let us see the Texts they alledge for their opinion : Deut. 4. 2. Iosh. 1. and others to the same effect . My first answer is ; suppose these places imported all the force our adversaries pretend , we are not in the least degree concern'd : since all that 's said is clearly spoken of a certain Book or Law , properly and specially belonging to the Jews : and no more obliging Christians then the Book of Leviticus or the Law of Circumcision . Secondly : since it is held as a main distinction and opposition betwixt the Laws of the Jew and of the Christian , that those of the Iew were to be written in Stone and Paper , and those of the Christian in the hearts of men by Tradition : it would rather follow ( if such Analogy were to be made ) that because nothing but Scripture is to be given to the Jew , only Tradition is to be pressed on the Christian. Thirdly , to the end this place may have the effect endeavoured by the arguer , all the rest of the Bible , except Deuteronomy or such other Book , to which the Texts cited particularly relate , may be burnt , or at least cast out of the Canon ; and not have any power to decide controversies , even in the Jews law . I know 't is answer'd , that Protestants deny not such Books : Neither do we accuse them of it ; only we conceive we may safely say , they contradict themselvs , in pressing these places to that effect of one side , and admitting the Books on the other . My fourth Answer is , that the Law it self enjoyns in certain cases , other precepts to be added ; remitting the people upon any doubt , first to Iudges , and afterwards to the High Priest , and commanding their declarations to be obey'd , and under greatest penalties punctually observ'd : So that , the consequence drawn out of these places , is both weak in it self and prejudicial to them that use it . Nor is the inference our adversaries wrest out of the last Chapter of the Apocalyps less unreasonable then the former : where , he that adds or detracts any thing from that Prophecy is accursed : whence pleasant discoursers will needs conclude ; that Christian doctrin is no otherwise to be proved but by Scripture . Questionless , to speak more pertinently to the Text , they should have said , it was to be prov'd out of nothing but the Apocalyps : but because that would appear too palpable and absurd , they included the rest of the Scripture violently against the express letter and meaning of the Text. This Argument seems to me , as if the fam'd Astrologer Mr. Lilly , had obtain'd a Protection from the State , that none should presume to abuse his Prognostications , by foysting in counterfeit ones , or blotting out any part of his ; and thence , one should boldly infer that all our Courts of Justice were commanded to judg such cases as came before them , only out of Lilly's Almanack : with this sole difference , that the arguer here unjustly cogs in the whole Scripture , instead of the single Book of the Apocalyps , which makes his consequence far weaker and more unexcusable then the other ; as I confess the similitude I use agreeable rather to the impertinency of the objection , then to the dignity of the subject . To these two may be parallel'd that Preface of St. Luke , so strongly urg'd by some . The words , as I understand them , are these . Seeing many have endeav●ured to compile ae history of the things in great abundance acted among us ; according as they who were from the beginning eye-witnesses and instruments of the Gospel , have delivered to us : I also have thought fit ( excellent Theophilus ) since I was present at all , things almost from the beginning , to set them down to thee in order , that thou mayest know the certainty of the Reports which thou hast been taught . This is the Text , though others interpret it otherwise ; who ( if they will urge any thing out of their own explication ) must first justify it against this . But out of this , First St. Luke pretends no more then to tell our Saviours life , like a good Historian ; however some of his excellent sayings cannot be deny'd their place in his life , as is testifyed by the same St. Luke , in the first of the Acts : and therfore we ought not expect to know more from him , then was fit for an Historian to report ; that is , the eminent deeds and sayings of our Saviour . Now , the end express'd in the Text for the writing of this History may be understood two ways : One , that Theophilus might know which reports were true , which fals : The other , that Theophilus out of the recital of Christs miracles and heroical actions might understand the greatness of his person , and by consequence the certainty of his holy doctrin , which depends from them ; But whether one or the other , however there is not a word that this Book should serve for a Catechism , to teach him and all the world the entire body of Christian doctrin , which must be our Adversaries meaning . There are yet two passages I must not omit , because our Adversaries make great account of them : one is the fourth Chapter of the first to the Corinthians , That you may learn in us , not to be wise beyond what is written . To understand this place , you must know there grew some emulations betwixt the disciples of the Apostles , ( if I may guess ) betwixt those of St. Peter and St. Paul. This St. Paul reprehends at large : but for fear of making the breach wider , instead of closing it , would not name St. Peter , chusing rather to put the case , as if it had pass'd betwixt himself and Apollo : and first uses this argument , that Paul and Apollo are but Ministers of Christ : therupon after some diversion , he comes to tel them , how all that any man has , is from God and for the people ; and concludes , to have all esteem'd as the Ministers of Christ and dispensators of his Mysteries : And after he has express'd how little he concerns himself , whether he be wel or ill reputed by them , concludes , telling them he had taken those two names of Paul and Apollo , to teach them this point ; and then brings in the words alleadg'd , which I may venture to paraphrase thus . I have disguis'd my discours concerning the esteem you ought to have of your Preachers , under the names of Apollo and my self ; that , by what I teach you to be due to our persons , you may learn not to be affected to your Preachers , above what I have written to you about a dozen lines before : to wit , that they are all ordain'd for you Ministers of Christ and dispensers of his Mysteries ; to the end one of you do not swell with pride or choller against another in any mans behalf , and so breed Schisms and contentions among your selves . This is the meaning of the Apostle ; as will appear to any judicious understanding , that can be content to read and diligently weigh the whole composition of the discours . And here we are unwillingly constrain'd to observe the desperate shifts of many of our adversaries , into which either the rashness of their passions or necessity of their caus engages them : for so , in the Text we now treat , they presently snapt at a piece of a sentence , where they found this charming word ( written ; ) and that was enough for them , without ever troubling their heads to consider or sense or connexion in order to the framing a legitimate argument . For , had they but taken the immediatly precedent line , These I have disguized into Apollo and my self for you , and then brought in the words cited , That you may learn in us , not to be wise above what is written ; the nonsense would have declar'd it self , and stumbled the Reader , who could not but presently have check'd at the inconsequence . And the verse following would be likewise incongruous to these , that you be not sweld one against another for any man : For , what connexion can either the words precedent , or subsequent have , with this , that , You are to learn your Faith out of the Scripture ? and yet I have translated the Latin Sapere or Greek 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , against the true sense , for the objectours advantage ; wheras the true meaning is not to esteem them higher , or bear themselvs , as if their Masters were higher : and thus the very English Translation yeilds it . The latter place is out of the first to the Galathians , where he warns them , that whoever comes to preach any doctrin , besides that which He had taught them , they should refuse him communion , or account him execrable . This passage I have always esteem'd very strong and pregnant for Tradition ▪ and our Adversaries call it a most illustrious proof against it . I confess at first I was at a loss to imagine how they could frame an argument out of so unfavourable a Text : but at last , I perceiv'd it might perhaps be thus , St. Paul ( said they ) preach'd nothing but what was written , as he testify's to Agrippa ; so then , all he preach'd was Scripture : But he commands them to receive no other doctrin , but what he deliver'd them : Therfore , he enjoynd them to make Scripture the Rule of their Faith. This is ( as far as I can find ) the full epitome of their discourse upon this Text. But , considering that what is in Scripture may be deliver'd by preaching , without any mention of Scripture ; me thinks though all St. Paul taught the Galathians had been written , yet it follows not He commanded the Galathians to hold the doctrin from Scripture ; For those two words , what we Evangeliz'd to you , and what you have receiv'd , signify so plainly preaching , that I can collect nothing from this place , but that they were to hold their Faith because He had preach'd it ; then which 't is impossible to imagine a more efficacious argument to demonstrate Tradition . And , to this effect , he exaggerates his own quality ; that he was one who had not receiv'd his doctrin from man nor by the entermise of man , but immediatly by revelation from Christ : and afterwards , ( upbraiding the Galathians for their inconstancy ) asks them , whether they had receiv'd their Christianity by the works of the Law , or ex auditu fidei , by hearing of the Gospel ? So that , in effect , his command is to the Galathians , to stand to his preaching , that is , to Tradition for their Faith : and this not only against all men but even Angels , should they come down from Heaven to preach any thing contrary . For , that the word praeter may signify contrary , is too well known to be insisted on ; But , that it signify's so here , the particular occasion of this discourse makes evident ; St. Paul expressing that some intruded themselves seeking to overturn the Gospel of Christ : and charging upon them that , wheras they had begun in spirit , they ended in flesh , and the like : Wherfore it is plain , he spake of doctrin contrary to what he had preach'd . But if praeter be taken for besides , it will signify besides Tradition , not besides Scripture : there being not the least mention of Scripture : Now , how soundly it is proved that St. Paul taught nothing but what was written , is before examin'd ; which yet if admitted true , were nothing to the purpose . For , 't is not the Catholik position , that all its doctrins are not contain'd in Scripture : but not held from thence nor to be convinced out of the naked letter , especially in a pertinacious dispute : A question certainly not so much as dream'd of in this place of St. Paul. And now to close this whole discourse , I shall only add one short period : as a prudential reflection upon the different fitness and proportion these two methods have , in order to determine controversies . That , in case where any two parties disgree , Tradition is very seldom of much as pretended by both , and if at all , still in points of less importance : wheras Scripture is continually alledg'd by all sides , how numerous soever their factions be , and how fundamental soever their differences : An evident sign , the way of resolving by Tradition , is incomparably preferrable to that of judging by the bare letter of Scripture : especially if , still upon examination , one of the pretended opposite Traditions prove , indeed , either not sufficiently universal or not positively contrary to the other , but , perhaps a particular custom of some Province , as Rebaptization : or only a meer negative Tradition , as that of the Greeks concerning the Holy Ghost . THE EIGHTEENTH ENCOUNTER , Declaring the reasons of the Authors concluding , without proceeding to the examination of the Fathers Testimonies . I Have omitted the petty quiblets of Criticism which our Adversaries use to press in divers of the places I explicated : not only because they are often fals , most commonly strain'd , and always such pigmy bulrushes , that they merit no admission into a grave discours : but chiefly , because , considering largely the Antecedents and consequents to the Texts alledged , I found the substance of them wholly mistaken and nothing to our purpose : and that such arguments are the abortive issue of immature brains , not able to distinguish the force of Canon shot , from a Faery's squib or a boys pot-gun . And I dare ( had I good conditions ) maintain that , in all the differences betwixt Protestants and us Catholicks , they cannot produce one place of Scripture , in which the words can bear a sense that comes home to the state of the question . I know many urge those of the Decalogue against Images : To which I answer , with words analogical to those of St. Paul , Who ( speaking to the Galathians ) protested that whoever circumcis'd ▪ himself , as a thing necessary or because of the old Commandment , was bound to keep the whole Judaical law : So say I , whoever condemns Images , upon this prohibition of Moses , is bound to keep all the law of the Jews : For , if these words be a law to us , because they are written in theirs , all that 's written in their law must be so to us ; since he that made one , made all ; and , for whom he made one and deliver'd it to them , for them he made and deliver'd all the rest , as one entire body of law to be observ'd by them . He therfore that counts himself bound by this Law , must ( if he have common sense ) esteem himself equally obliged to all the rest . Upon the same reason hangs the keeping of the Sabhath day ; for , of all the Decalogue , these are the only two points unrepeated in the new Testament : so that , all the rest we are bound to accept in vertue of that , but these two we cannot . Wherfore , whoever holds , The Sabbath day is commanded by God , either does so because he finds it in the old Law : and to him I protest he ought ( in consequence to this judgment ) submit to all that law and become a Jew : or els , because he finds it in observation among Christians , that is , in Tradition : and to him I protest , he is bound to embrace all that comes down by Tradition , namely , the whole Roman Catholick Faith : Therfore , every rigorous observer of the Sabbath , is bound in common sense , either to be a Jew or a Catholick . To make an end , I know our adversaries alledg many sentences of Fathers to prove the sufficiency of Scripture : wherof the most part I am sure are as far beside the state of the question , as those places of Scripture we come now from examining . However , I finde my self , not concern'd to look into them : pretending no farther at this present , then to consider the ground upon which those I oppose rely , for their assurance , that Scripture is sufficient to decide controversies , according to the state of the question , as it is proposed . Now , because they reject wholly the Authority of Fathers , from a definitlve sentence in matter of Faith : it is impossible for them , ( if they are not quite Bedlams ) to rely on their Authority for acceptance of Scripture ; for what can be imagin'd more palpably absurd then to receive upon their credit the whole Rule of Faith , and yet not take their words for any one Article of Faith ? and consequently what can be imagin'd more vain and fruitless then for me to lose my labour in striving to shew that Protestants have no colour from Antiquity , to expect this al-deciding power in Scripture , whilst themselvs aver the whole multitude of Fathers is not capable of giving a sufficient testimony for their relyance on Scripture : since therfore there is nothing like a ground in Scripture , and they scorn all ground except Scripture , I must leave them to the freedom of doing it without ground . FINIS . DAILLÈS ARTS DISCOVER'D : OR , His RIGHT USE , Prov'd A Down-right ABUSE Of the FATHERS . By THO. WHITE , Gent. EZECH . 13. 12. Ecce cecidit Paries : nunquid non dicetur vobis , Vbi est litura quam linistis ? Printed in the Yeare 1654. DAILLè's Arts DISCOVER'D . THE FIRST SURVEY . Of the nature and subject of Daille's Book . HAving clos'd the precedent Treatise which this consideration , that , since Protestants disavow to be determin'd by the authority of Fathers , I had just title to decline any farther search into those reverend Witnesses of our ancient Faith ; being a task that would require some labour of me to do , and yield no profit to them , when done . Yet , I easily observ'd , that , as my excuse ( to indifferent Persons ) will defend me from the imputation of being troubled with the Writing-Itch : so , it seems to engage my clearing my self of a far more important charge , which otherwise might occasion some passionate or captious spirits , to fix this scandal upon me , that I acknowledge not the judgment of Antiquity ; an injurious aspersion , which the French Daillè has actually endeavour'd to cast upon the whole Catholik Church , in his abusive Treatise , of the right use of the Fathers . And because that Monsieur 's Book is Denizon'd among us , by the adoption of those two great Secretaries ( whose names forc'd me into this imployment ) and rais'd to the esteem of being the source whence their streams took their current ; I cannot but give my Reader a hint concerning it : for no other reason , but only to make him understand , what Great men are subject to , when the luxuriousness of their wits carries them beyond the bounds of those professions they are skild in . With this Note therfore we wil begin our discourse ; that , Many great and nimble wits , both ancient and modern , have ( meerly for their recretation ) undertaken to plead the cause of natural defects , and striven to set them above the opposite perfections : like Aesop's Woolf , who , having lost his tail , would perswade other Wolvs to cut off theirs too , as unnecessary burdens . But , nature contradicting this Art , and by a perpetuall current of impressions , forcing us to the contrary belief ; such quaint discourses gain no more credit then Prismatical glasses , in which we are pleasd to know our selvs delightfully cosen'd . Now , what in these men , is only a Caprich of wit and gayness of humor , were it applied to a business of high concern , and which could not be judg'd by our senses , but requir'd a deep penetration to distinguish right from wrong , would certainly be a most pernicious and insufferable wickedness : a trap to ensnare and ruin all the weak and unlearn'd , whom either the cunning of Logick can deceive , or sweetnesse of Rhetorick inveagle . But , being arriv'd already within sight of my designed Port , I beg my Reader to believe me of that discretion , as not easily to lanch forth again into the main Ocean of a new bottomless controversy : and therfore I shall only essay to decipher the quality of the Treatise in common ; leaving its strict perusal to them that are more at leisure , and have their Noses better arm'd for raking in a dunghil . To make then a neerer approach to the work , I shal begin with the Author's intention , which aims at no lesse then this bold and desperate attempt , To disable the Fathers from being Judges in the Controversies of this present Age. Let us enquire the true and genuine sense of this proposition . And first , who are signifi'd by the word Fathers ? For this he assigns us three Ages : from Christ to Constantine ; from Constantine to Gregory the great ; and from Him to Vs. Now , this last part , ( though it contains a thousand yeeres , ) he cuts off from the score of Fathers , and much more , puls them out of the B●nch of Judges : the middle division he grumbles at , as not being worthy of , or , at most hardly admittable to that appellation : the first Age alone he freely acknowledges . By what Criticism he does this , I am not able to understand : For , when I learn'd Latin , Pater signified the immediate progenitour of the Son ; and St. Paul was of that opinion , telling his Converts , They had no Father but himself , because he had in person , begotten them by the Gospel : and though , by ampliation , this word has included also the Parents of our Fathers , and upwards even to Adam ; yet how it comes so to signifie the most remote , as to exclude the neerest , is beyond my skil in Grammar . Pray , let this good Definitor reflect upon himself : if the first remembred of his race had died without Issue , how could he have been one of his Forefathers ? no more , had there been no Preachers after the first three hundred yeers till our time , should we have accounted those Primitive Ones our Fathers . That they are Fathers , then , is because they begot Preachers , who continued the propagation of the same doctrine to our daies : which we profess they did among us ; and that therfore we are their Spiritual Off-spring , they our Fathers . But Daillè and his Consorts fault is not , that they contract the compass of the Fathers ; but that they acknowledge any . For they are all Mushroms , sprung up as new as the morning , not so much as one from another , if they be true to their tenets : every one of them is bound to say to Calvin , as wel as to the Saints , I believe not for thy word , but I have heard it from the Apostles own mouths in the Scripture . Though , indeed , I have no reason to quarrel much with Him upon this point : for , if he acknowledges the word Fathers , he denies the Thing or Vertue of it in them ; since , to be a Father , is to propagate Christs doctrine to posterity : which quality he must of necessity deny them , whilst he thinks their doctrine not to be that of Christ ; and that it ought , by every private man , be brought to the test of the Bible , and so far accepted or refus'd , as , to the grave judgement of some judicious Blue-apron , seems agreeable to the sense of Scripture . This , then , is the pious design of this Authour , To infinuate a belief , that , since the Apostles daies , there has not been a sufficient living Witnesse of what they taught the world , or what Christ taught them . In which there are two notorious propositions infolded , worthy to be look'd into . First , that these good Christians , at one leap free themselves from all the bands of Community and Society of mankind , and from all subjection to the Kingdom of Christ , which they flatly deny . For , Nature teaches us , there can be no Government without Judges ; I mean , living Definitors and Deciders of occasional debates : therefore , if Christ has left no Judges upon Earth , he has no kingdom here : such Judges I speak of , as should administer His Law ; for he came not to plant temporal Kings , but a spiritual Regiment , wherin , if he has had no Judges since the Apostles decease , his Kingdom expir'd with them . Now then , the whol drift of this Writer is , to establish an absolute Anarchy ; where every one indifferently shall be Master without control , in that great and principal Mystery of training up souls to eternal happiness : which by how much more dark and difficult the spiritual conduct to future bliss is , then temporal government to present wealth and security , so much more unreasonable and unnatural must the position be , that dissolvs all obedience to Ecclesiastical Superiours , and abolishes all Order in the Church : An assertion justly to be abhor'd by any , who has the least spark of love to that only great Good , the salvation of his Soul. The other Proposition is , that since the Apostles time , there has been no publik either true doctrine or good life , in that part of the World which we call Christian. I do not mean , there may not have appeared some vertuous actions in private persons , ( though perhaps the consequence might be driven so far ; ) but that , all visible Companies have had both their Doctrine spotted with foul tenets , and their consequent practises polluted with Superstition and Idolatry : For , as this is one of the main grounds for their rejecting the Fathers ; so , the reason à priori ( which they alledge ) being once admitted , evinces the truth of the Conclusion I charge upon them : it being evident , that if because man is fallible , the Fathers are insufficient to propagate truth to their posterity ; and , out of the position of insufficiency , must of necessity follow the consequence of defect ; certainly then , the following generations had not sufficient instruction , either for belief or actions . And indeed , the Reformers themselvs acknowledg as much ; since they esteem the Fathers errours so gross , that it was fit to leave the communion of that Church , wherin they are defended , rather then accept of such abominations . Now if this be not to deny all good life , and the main and universal fruit of Christs passion , even in those preferr'd Ages , I have lost my little wits . This ; therfore , I say , is the aym and project of his Book ; to prove , That since Christs time , there has been no sufficient living testimony of the Truth of Religion , no command or government of Christians , as Christians ; and lastly , no holiness or good life , nor any fitting direction among mankind brought in and stated by our kind Saviour and wisest Law-giver Jesus Christ. Now , how great an encouragement and advance this may prove , either towards vertue or study of Religion , I understand not . This I know , if any would purposely seek to draw off our hearts from all hope of heaven and practice of vertue , I cannot imagin a more efficacious argument , then , First , to tell how much pains our Saviour had taken to plant a right Faith and Christian life , in so many years of example and Preaching , closing all with such strange unparalleld suffrings : Nay , that he had sent the Holy Ghost , in so manifest and glorious a manner from heaven , upon his Disciples , to fire their hearts with zeal and impower their hands to Miracles , giving them Commission to publish his new Law over all the World , and solemnly engaging to assist them for ever : And yet afterwards bring in proofs , how , notwithstanding all this , soon as these Apostles were dead , Idolatry and corruption , both of doctrin and manners , began presently to appear , in the greatest and best Members of the Church , even the immediate Disciples of the Apostles ; and in short time , so over-run the whole World , that the means of Salvation was generally lost , and the way to heaven obstructed with an universal deluge of vice and superstition . These proofs are the work of our excellent Author : whence I think it no boldness to conclude , this Treatise , of the right use of the Fathers , is the perfectest piece that ever was written , for the utter extermination of Christian doctrin , and absolute ruin of all vertue . For , when I turn o're the Book , I cannot but acknowledg it full of as good Topicks , cast into as neat a stile , and qualify'd with as seeming a fit temper conveniently to betray unwary souls , as any modern I ever read : but I fear not , these few animadversions I have hastily collected , sufficiently demonstrate to the sight of any that will but open their eyes , how dangerous and damnable a a poyson lies hidden under that guilded hypocritical cover . THE SECOND SURVEY . Of the two first Chapters of his first Book ; wherin he urges that the Fathers of the three first ages were few , and their writings wholly unconcerning our Controversies . THe intention of the Work being so pious , so conformable to nature and the ways of the Author of nature ; you cannot chuse but expect the proofs very sound and convincing : And , if you will believe either my Lord of Bristow's judgment or my opinion , we shall easily agree in his Elogium , both of them and their Author , that little material or weighty , can be said on this subject , which his rare and piercing observation has not anticipated . To understand his perswasions the better , I entreat you , reflect upon two ways , or rather two parts of one way , ordinarily chosen by such jugling Orators , as we before made mention of ; who use to employ their wits in contradicting open verities . The first is , to talk much of the common notion , when the question is of a particular . As if one would undertake to disswade a man from travelling to Rome , because 't is a long journey ; he will plead the inconveniences which accompany long journeys , and immediatly talk of Wildernesses , wild Beasts , great Robberies , dangerous Rivers , unpassable Mountains , want of Company , and disfurnishment of all accommodations by the way , & a thousand such frightful narrations which occur in the misfortunes of Shipwrack'd men , and the desperate voyages of Romance-Lovers : But never descend to consider , whether all these be found in the way to Rome , or what remedies are provided to correct such Symptomes ; knowing too wel , that equivocation is easily couch'd and ambushed in common propositions , but soon detected , if a descent be made to particulars . The other Fallacy is , To assign real inconveniences , but not tell you how far they annoy the Subject , alledging many sad things , but concealing how great they are . As a man may have the Gout or Stone in so slight a measure , that they shall never trouble him : yet a third person , who hears the melancholy relation , may conceit and pitty his case as most deplorable ; because the Reporter , not expressing the violence of these diseases , leavs an impression in our minds of such a degree of pain and affliction , as we ordinarily commiserate in those that suffer the extreamest fury of such vexatious tormentors . These two Fallacies run , in a manner , through his whole Book ; which he divides into two parts , very methodically . In the former , he pretends to shew 't is an excessive hard , if not impossible , task to know the meaning of the Fathers : In the later , that , supposing their sense were known , it imported little to the dispatch of controversies ; they being not infallible , nor without all danger of errour : grounding himself on this maxim , that the understanding neither can , nor indeed ought to believe any thing in point of Religion , but what it knows to be certainly true . Which , had it come out of a Roman Catholicks mouth , would have sounded gloriously , and worthy the dignity of that Faith which God and Iesus Christ , being the Author of , have compleatly furnisht with clear and solid principles . He perhaps would have offered you choice , either of Faith or Knowledg ; produced in order to this , as perfect demonstrations as Aristotle is ador'd for ; and towards that , engaged you in the most evident directors of humane life , and cleerly evidenc'd , by the principles of common sense , that , if you refuse the Authority of the Roman Church , you renounce all the certainties on which you build every serious action of your life ; & in a word constrain'd you to deny or affirm somwhat that your self , in another case , will confess a meer madness to affirm or deny . But , in Monsieur Daille's mouth , who , in his next words , will cast you upon the vanity of a broken breath , which has been a boulting and searsing these hundred years , without any profit in the certainty of its meaning ; I cannot pierce farther , then that this glorious principle is assum'd , as the readiest means to betray his Auditor into a despair of Christianity , and then leave him in the gulf of Atheism . However , let 's see the nature of his proofs , which for the first point , he has screwd up to eleven . The three first are , that the Fathers works , especially in the three first Centuries , were very few , and of matters far different from the present controversies ; and besides , many fals writings father'd upon those Saints by unworthy persons ; ( of which last imputation my third Survey gives you a more exact particular . ) Nor can I deny any of this , but I find two exceptions , which I believe would shrewdly trouble the Minister to answer : One , that those of the pretended Reformation , who have so much modesty in them , as not to renounce utterly the authority of the whole Church of Jesus Christ at one blow , strive to shelter their nakedness in these three Centuries : wherof these three arguments make me plainly see the reason , Because by the paucity of Books , the difference of Subject , and pretence of Forgery , they hope nothing can be made evident for those Ages : and so , the purity for which they cry up those days as only worth our conformity , is in that sense the Poet says , purae sunt plateae , that is , ther 's no body in the streets . My other unsatisfaction is , He does not shew that even in these ages , and those very works which he acknowledges for the Authors home-born Children , and to have descended incorrupted to our daies , there is not sufficient to convince all Hereticks . For , though every particular point peradventure cannot , in so few works and written so accidentally to our purpose , be clearly demonstrated ; yet , the generality of the Rule we are to follow in Christian doctrin is so manifestly set down , in those very Fathers he admits , that , were their writings made our judges , no man could possibly be an Heretick : since , as the material points the Fathers wrote against were different from ours ; so the formal ones , as the deserting the Catholick communion , the renouncing the testimony of Apostolical Seas , and the hiding themselves under the leaves of Scripture , were common to all the ancient as well as modern Hereticks . But however , if he cannot maintain , that there is not enough left to convince the truth ; his proof is deficient , and wholly useless to the end he brings it . One observation more I cannot chuse but note : He quarrels with some Catholick Doctors , who prefer the second Tricentury before the first , as to the right understanding the sense of the Fathers : Which he says he takes for a confession of the want of testimonies in the former Ages , and doubts not but in equal cleerness , they would prefer the first Tricentury , for point of purity before the latter . But either his own opinion or mis-understanding our Tenets deceiv'd him : For , we do not imagin the former ages more pure then the later , since we admit no errours in either , but make no question that the universality of Fathers in any two ages held the same doctrin ; and so , the Faith of the second Tricentury being known , we account that of the former undoubted ; especially we all believing the latter Fathers receiv'd their doctrin from the former , not by reading their Books , which belong'd to few , but by being instructed from their mouths who had receiv'd it from them . But he thinks his Reformers very probably maintain that Christian Religion has long been in a dangerous consumption , declining still by little and little , and losing in every Age some certain degree of its Primitive vigour and native complexion ; to which purpose he cites the words of Hegesippus out of Eusebius , That this infirmity began as soon as the Apostles were dead . This position sounds to me , as if the opinions they cry out against for abominations enter'd so early into the Church ; and have continued in it so long , that they can now reckon fifteen Centuries : nor can I desire either a more ingenuous confession or stronger proof of the truth of those doctrines , which the nature of Christianity has preserv'd with such exact care , and constant tenderness that in so many ages , not one of them has been forgotten , not one of them ever oppos'd , by those who , in all generations , have stil been accounted the sound party of Christians . Besides , I should expect , that so foul a blemish , as these bold accusers lay upon the Church ; viz. that she has been an Idolatrous and abominable Harlot , ever since the death of the Apostles , ought not to be grounded on bare probable conjectures , but evidently convinced ; under penalty that , otherwise , the Calumniators should suffer , at least , as heavy a Censure , as they attempt to pass against the Church . But , because , for the maintenance of this odious slander , he chiefly rely's on H●gesippus's testimony , let the witness be fairly examin'd ; and that according to the Authors own citation , which runs to this effect , After the Apostles death , the Masters of Seduction began publickly and professedly , to vent their falssy named Science , against the preaching of the truth : which , in plain English signifies no more , then that Hereticks rose up against the Church : and is so far from arguing the Churches corruption , that it strongly concludes her purity , since the doctrin , which falshood contradicts , must necessarily be it self true . Thus clearly it follows from these words , that the wrong imputed corruption was out of the Church , and soundnesse of Faith in her Communion . But , if we look into the Text exactly , the meaning of that passage is this , After the Apostles death , the consistence of Heresie took its beginning , that is , Hereticks grew into a body , daring to shew their heads , where , before they lurk'd for fear of the Apostles : which expression manifestly proves , They began to make congregations , distinct from the true Church . And , this being evident , we cannot be troubled with those words going before in Higesippus , which say , till then the Church was a virgin and uncorrupted ; for it is a phrase natural enough , to call the body corrupted , whose putrify'd parts are cut off or rotted away , as those degenerate members were from the Church of God : And so this very Daillè could cite ( upon another occasion ) these self-same Innovators under the direct notion of Hereticks , when he thought it might better serve his turn . THE THIRD SURVEY . Of his 3d. and 4th . Chapters , wherin he objects forgery and corruption of the Fathers works . AS to the third point , of Forgery , our Monsieur dilates himself exceedingly ; but , how much to the purpose , some few notes wil discover . First , he objects many counterfeit Books , that are not now extant , nor have been these many Ages : and think you not there must necessarily arise a strange obscurity in our Controversies , from such forgeries ? Then , he complains , that Transcribers have put wrong names to books , either for the better selling them , or out of ignorance ; and , in some of them , the question is about Authors almost of the same age : all which is likewise little to the point ; for , where the Ages opinion , and not the particular credit of the Author's learning is requir'd ; the authority of one understanding writer ought generally to weigh as much as anothers : and this is the case in controversies ; where the sense of the Church , not that of private Doctors , is the subject of our inquiry . Neither must I forget his defamation of the ancient Christians , as counterfeiters of the Sybils Prophesies , out of the calumny of the wicked Celsey , which neverthelesse we see Lactantius stands upon to the Heathens faces . He omits not , for a notorious piece of forgery , that the Canons of the Council of Sardica are cited as of the Council of Nice : wherin nothing is more certain , then that the Canons were true , though not admitted by the Greeks , who , being cal'd , would not come to the Council . So the question stands meerly upon this , whether they ought to be cal'd the Canons of Nice , being made by a Council gather'd afterwards to confirm the former ? which the Latines defend , and the Greeks dislike . Doubtless a main forgery , to be urg'd by this temperate man , whose charity , no question , would have winkt at small faults . Yet because no ordinary satisfaction will content him , though those Popes were all both commended by the Ages in which they liv'd , and reputed Saints by the ensuing Church , and One of them that great Saint Leo , whose Oracles were so highly esteem'd in the Council of Chalcedon : I will briefly set down the case . The Arian Emperour Constantius ( though yet , for fear not declar'd such ) summon'd a Generall Council of the Eastern and Western Churches , to a Town cal'd Sardica . There assembled betwixt 3 and 4 hundred Bishops . The Arians , seeing themselvs like to come to the worst , by the number of the Orthodox party , upon sought pretences , went to another place , cald Philippopolis ; where , making an assembly of their own , they term'd it , from the Emperours Summons , the Council of Sardica : And , partly by their diligence and sending circular Letters thorow Christendom , partly by joyning with a great faction of Donatists , but chiefly ( as it may be justly believ'd ) by the power of the Emperours Officers , made the name of the Council of Sardica passe for the denomination of their Conventicle , both in the East , and thorow such remote parts as had not special intelligence of what pass'd in Sardica . Hence , any Canons pretended to be order'd at Sardica , were blasted before known : wherupon it fel out , that the small party which knew the truth , was forc'd , in their collections of Canons , to place these next to the Council of Nice ( as their order requir'd ) without a name , and as an Appendix of the Council . In this posture these Popes found them about an hundred yeers after : and , whether it was that they were not sufficiently acquainted with the Accident , or whether they thought the action legitimate , and the ground of it sufficient , they urg'd them as Canons of Nice ; and , after the matter was examin'd , bore the Cause , in force of them , and continu'd on to posterity still the same denomination . This is that solemn Forgery he decries with so loud a clamor ; and concluds his vehemency with so notorious a falshood , that every three-penny Controvertist can spit in his face . For he says , that even now a great part of Christendom holds , and 't is generally urg'd by all , that the Popes Authority in Appeals was first given him by the Council of Nice : wheras , the most ordinary opinion is , that 't is jure divino ; and those that look on jus positivum , are so cunning , as to distinguish the Council of Nice from that of Sardica ; and in that of Nice , seek only a Testimony of what was in use before the Council , not a Guift of this Authority . His next accusation concerns certain writings that both the Catholiks and pretenders to Reformation agree to be Counterfeit : which , how little it imports our Controversie , since neither party grounds any doctrin upon them , needs not be express'd . Another sort he counts for Forgery , when Catholiks , among themselvs , question certain pieces of ancient Authors ; in which case , he still joyns himself to that part of Catholiks that refuses to admit such passages for legitimate , and then immediately charges all the rest who receive them , with downright forgery : which is the same as to call all men Knaves , that are not of his side ; as if no real and just doubt could be made of Authors by sober and vertuous persons , but all must be imputed to malice ; so that , this exception is plainly a peevish and shallow cavil : and besides , no waies available to his purpose ; since , that which is in real doubt among Catholiks , can be no argument against Heretiks . He that has patience enough to take notice of these qualities in his Chapter of Forgery , and see that , besides this , he has nothing in it but aiery discourses , in common , how writings may be corrupted , cannot chuse but say — Movet Cornicula risum , Furtivis nudata coloribus . And yet suppose all he endeavours were true , in abstracto , there remains stil the application ; wherein if he miscarry , instead of pulling down the Fathers , he lays himself in the dust : for , after never so many Books never so much disabled , if we can finde a Library full of unsuspected and universally acknowledg'd Authors , we sufficiently discover the impertinency and deceitfulness of this manner of proceeding . Therfore , to prevent this inconvenience , our quaint Discourser raises two suspicions against the confest works of Fathers : One of Corruption , the other of Obscurity . The former he begins from the escapes of Transcribers ; which , as we cannot deny to have some force , if spoken in common , so , apply'd to particulars , we shall find little important to our purpose : For , if the question were of some two or three Sentences spoken by the by , such perhaps might be suspected , though not justly , without better ground then a bare surmise ; because , where the error of the Transcriber has its amplitude to happen in one of ten thousand lines , to say it lights just here , is a very weak conjecture , unless there be more particular causes of jealousie alledg'd , ( which may apply it to that place , ) then follow from this common cours : But , when there are formall and set discourses , or frequent and express passages , to the same effect and purpose ; then this suspition has no weight at all : and such is the case betwixt Catholiks , and the Pretenders to Reformation . At the next turn , he would perswade us , that St. Hierome , Ruffinus , and others , who abridg'd certain Greek works in their translation , did therby falsify the Authors ; afterward , that the collections of Canons made either by Greeks or Latins are corruptions , because they omitted such as they dislik'd or had no use of : not understanding or dissembling his knowledge , that such Books are not intended for Histories , to tell us what pass'd , but Rules for government , and so to be fitted to the particular occasion ; taking what conduces to the writers purpose , and leaving out such passages as are ( though in themselvs good ) yet impertinent to his designs . In the same rank are Liturgies ; which being the publik prayers , are subject to be enlarg'd , contracted , or changed , according to the devotion of the people and prudence of the Pastors , as we see daily practised : and so are better testimonies for universality , in their districts , then of antiquity . These , therfore , neither are corruptions , nor make the sense of the Fathers more difficult : for we can use but so much as we find in them , and so far , they are as authentical as any other ; whilst what is not there cannot be pressd out of them . After these , he produces some debates between the Latines and Greeks , about falsifying certain passages ; whose quarrels it concerns not me to take up : only I must note , the brotherly correction he gives the Fathers in these words , thus did they bandy stifly one against the other ; each of them , as it may be easily perceiv'd , having much more appearance of reason and truth in their accusation of their Adversary , then in excusing or defending themselvs ; which is no less then a plain condemnation of all , how ever disputable the case be in it self . Now , how many of such passages mutually objected , justly deserv'd that calumniation , and were not , by the fervour of disputation only term'd so ( being in themselvs but mistakes , and wrong informations ) is too long a business for the brevity I propose to my self . Yet this also I may observe , not without ground , from Daillè himself , that the true controversie concerning such abuses has been indeed between Catholiks and Heretiks , but not Latins and Greeks in common ; for the Catholik Greeks stil accus'd their Hereticks of great corruption . And this is reasonable , because Catholiks having alwaies stood for , and rely'd on Antiquity , alwaies upbraided and condemn'd Hereticks , as guilty of novelty ; it necessarily follows , they were without question fully perswaded their opinion was the same with the Fathers , and had a real and true evidence of it : wheras Heretiks , not esteeming Antiquity for it self , but only for fear of scandalizing the generality of Christians , who are stil brought up in a high reverence of it , were bound to seek those waies that might satisfy as wel as deceive the people , without any inward and hearty respect to the Fathers themselvs : a charge this very Author justifies not to be uncharitably apply'd to such Innovators ; whilst his own chief endeavours strive to make us think the Fathers are like Epicurus's Gods , Fine things in themselvs , but hung so high , their sound cannot reach us mortals here below upon Earth . Neither indeed is the case of Ambition much unlike that of Heresie : for , those who encroach upon publik practices of former Ages , are forc'd to use their utmost skil in falsifying all they can , to obscure the evidence of what passed in the daies of their Ancestors . One other particular wil challenge me , if I go on without taking at least some little notice of it : and 't is the Grecians objection about adding this word Filioque to the Creed of Nicaea : which having insisted on more largly in another place , I shall pacify with this short answer ; Since , 't is confest by both parties , that the main Creed was made in that Council , and received this addition , from another , freely and openly avow'd for such by the Roman Church : the question could not be of corruption , ( which seems to imply a secret design of imposing on the world ) but of the lawfulness of the Addition . Now , let us pass to his accusation of later times ; where , he complains there is far more fals play . His first instance is , against certain varieties in the ancient Fathers ; that some Manuscrips or Impressions agree not with others : as if every one that sets out a Book must have seen all Manuscripts , or else he corrupts the Ancient Copy . But , that which angers him is , the words omitted or added are against his tenets ; whence he gathers it was no casual escape , but a deliberate plot of voluntary corruption : but he that wil lose so much time as to take notice how weak and inconsiderable the passages are , even in his own citations , wil easily see this chief proof consists meerly in a bold assertion . I shall therfore rely on my Readers ingenuity , and only cite two or three examples for a pattern of the rest : As , that the word Petra is changed into Petrus , in that famous sentence of St. Cyprian , Cathedra una super Petrum Domini voce fundata ; That , in St. Amhrose , some books are separated , which in other Copies are joyn'd together ; that , in St. Peters life , is omitted a certain Exhortation , advising his Successors to abstain from secular cares : Pretences so slight in themselves , so impertinent to the main cause ; that , none but a petty Polititian would have stoopt to such trivial corruptions , nor any but a wrangling Sophister pretended such childish exceptions . But , not content with what has been done , he presses us with what would have been done , if I know not whose counsail had been follow'd : which is nothing but the wild Chimera's of a sick brain . Next he is offended that Heretical books have been forbidden and abolish'd : as if any could think it reasonable , sedicious Pamphlets against Kings and States should passe unreprehended in their dominions ; exhortations to Idolatry be permitted among the Jews ; or such blasphemies as pretend to prove Christ an Impostor should be tolerated among Christians . I wonder calumnies so shallow , so impudent , and of so desperate a consequence can finde patience enough in any person of understanding to read them ; & yet I see great wits strangly applaud them . The actions , therfore , cal'd by him corruptions , consisting only in such , to the very end of his fourth Chapter , you wil easily perceive that this so wel bodied Chapter also ( if the impertinencies with which he lards it were substracted ) would prove as lean and starv'd as Pharao's Oxen. Besides , if we seek to direct his arrow towards the intended scope , this last concerns not the ancient Fathers ; since now , Expurgations are only for Moderns , as anciently they were only against Hereticks . The other objections reach no way to disable this safe and principal answer , That , notwithstanding all his cavils , there may stil remain a sufficient number of the Fathers writings , pure and incorrupted , to convince the doctrin of the Catholik Church . THE FOURTH SURVEY . Of the fifth Chapter ; wherin he objects the Fathers Eloquence ; and that , on set purpose , they spake obscurely . I Shall pass now to the next Flourish , rather then Argument : where , this bold unwary man ( offering to prove the Fathers are hard to be understood ) assigns those very reasons , that make all other Authors more easily understandable . For first , what Languages more copious , more regular , and wherein Schollers are more vers'd , then Latin and Greek , which are the Fathers Idiomes ? Yes , says he , but few arrive to that perfection in them , as is truly requisite for the exact managing of Controversies . Be it so : But then , let no others meddle with this part of Controversies , like Masters , but they ; let such on both sides try the quarrel , whilst others for this part rely on them . But again he renews his first complaint : how smal a number are they that are fitly qualify'd to enter the lists in so difficult a combate ? I do not fear , if this Author were ask'd of France , Holland , and Germany , he would readily undertake to find twenty of his own side compleatly furnisht for such a skirmish ; and , since our Party is both more extended , enjoys better commodity for studying , and cleerly , by its numerous works , shews it self far more laborious , He may well allow us at least as many as he promises to produce of his own : If then , betwixt both , may be found at the same time , forty sufficiently train'd for the encounter , what need we ask any more ? there will not want enough besides , capable to prosit themselvs out of their Labours . He proceeds to help himself upon St. Hieroms speech against nimium diserti , and some faults of weak interpreters : And presumes , the places he brings clear : though my sight is not quick enough to perceive it of any , but one of St. Austin cont . Adimant . which he clears himself , by adding to the Fathers Text cùm signum daret corporis sui , the word only in his interpretation . Then he urges , Men bring obscure places to interpret Scripture : but the unhappiness is , his instances are of his own party . He presses , that the Fathers , before the rising of Heresies , spake ambiguously and doubtfully , and that which seem'd to be against their own certain sense and meaning ; as he exemplify's out of St. Athanasius and St. Basil , concerning some Fathers before the Arian Heresy . But this Wel-meaner forgets that ( at least in his examples ) he brings the salve with the stroak : for , confessing 't was shew'd to be against the writers meaning , he implicitly tels us , either there were other precedent or subsequent expressions in the same place , which made the doubtful words plain ; or , at least so evident passages of the same Author , in other places , that there could be no doubt of his meaning , in the ambiguous ones . And , truly if we observe this gentle Sophisters discours , we shal easily see , he imagines , that proofs from the Fathers ought to be brought by the popping out of half a Sentence , and never regard either what goes before or follows after ; as , by the instances we have already examin'd , you may perceive is the reform'd fashion of citing Scriptures : Wheras , the Books of Fathers , being large and ample , allow greater Carreers to those who run matches in them . He adds farther , that the Fathers deliver'd some things on set purpose , obscurely . If his meaning be , they exprest their thoughts in certain occasions , shortly or not fully ; what danger is there in that ? We know wel all arguments drawn from them must be made out of what they have , not what they might have written : and so , the erudition he spends , in proving this , had been better employ'd to shew the height of those Mysteries the Fathers saw just cause to conceal , then in cavilling at their compendious expressions , which suted best with their circumstances . And certainly 't is most agreeable to reason , that the mind of such as wrote before the Controversy began , should be judged by those Fathers , who ( for the easier defence of truth and fuller confutation of the Innovators ) were forc'd to break the Seal of secrecy : and , who ( being their immediate Disciples ) without doubt must necessarily best know their minds , and consequently were most able to repeat the lessons they had so lately learnt of their Masters . He afterwards reckons up certain Grammar weaknesses of some Fathers , and the excellencies of others , and , out of both , draws venom to his comb : So that , whether a Father write down right natural construction , or ( by abilities of explicating himself ) polish his stile , all breeds darkness to this great Illuminator ( or Calumniator rather ) of the Fathers : Nay , the very vices they cry out against in evil Preachers , must be the faults of the Princes of antiquity , by this Interpreters benevolence . But he knocks all on the head , by the example of St. Hierom ; who , having related what had passed in him during his sleep , in another place defends it was but a dream : And can you believe , the Objector was awake , when he fumbled out this piece of impertinency ? Yet he urges it for a convincing evidence : and , bearing a special good wil to St. Hierom , he very kindly perswades himself , that the Stories of Malchus , St. Paul the Eremit , and St. Hillarion , were Romances ; the first , because his maligners calumniated it ; the other two , ( though never question'd ) because he shew'd wit in them . It seems too , he would beget in his Reader this dutiful conceit of the Fathers , that they were wont to deliver Romances for Articles of Faith ; concluding with this desperate and ungracious demand , Who shall assure us , that they have not made use of these same Arts , in their discourses concerning the Eucharist ? and afterwards renews again the like impudent quaere , discovering too openly the prophaness of his heart ; as if he suspected the Fathers might , perhaps , have cozen'd the people , with some fals glasses , to magnifie the power of Prelates . Next , he objects , the Fathers often affirm or deny obsolutely , what they mean only comparatively : and , if you wil not believe him , he produces examples out of St. Hierom , St. Chrysostom , Amphilochius and Asterius . But , St. Hierom is plainly , in the very words comparative : The rest are both explicated to the same sense , by the bordering Ages , who might easily know the practice of their lives in that controversie , and in his very citation , have nothing capable of being urg'd against that explication ; besides , the phrase it self is favourable . What great difficulty is there to pick out the English of this sentence , Praemia pudicitiae nuptiae possidere non possunt , &c. with the rest , too trivial to be repeated ? He makes a second review of the Fathers speeches , concerning some Heresy not yet debated , upon another design ; to shew , that while they speak against one Heresie , they seem to fall into the contrary . But there is no new difficulty brought , unlesse it be of those terms 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , both which this Author abuses by a wrong interpretation : the first he renders , let fall in heat of disputation , instead of giving it the true sense , which Englishes it thus , suppos'd for disputation sake ( for so 't is contradistinguish'd to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to which St. Basil opposes it : ) the later he explicates done or said by dispensation , whereas the proper signification is , by discretion ; St. Athanasius's meaning being that he deliverd what was fittest in that occasion , and for the person to whom , or in whose name he spake ; for his words give us some hints inclining to either of those senses , that He intended only to personate an objection against himself , or else to draw some answer out of another , without engaging to declare his own judgment . But 't is worthy our pains to look into the sweet interpretation he makes , and compare it with the Greek which himself puts in the margin : he reads therfore thus , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; that is , men ought not maliciously to take ( or understand ) and draw it to be his proper meaning , what one writes or does ( as now it s cal'd ) ad hominem ; for , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifies according to the art and understanding to apply every thing to the particular circumstances which offer themselvs . Lastly , he tels us , the use of words is chang'd since Antiquity ; but specifies so simply , that without question he hoped none but blind men would look into his book : as if the World now thought , that Papa signifies not a spiritual Authority , but a temporal Garbo ; that Confessio signifies some outward ceremony ; Missa , all the prayers now used , &c. THE FIFTH SURVEY . Of the six Chapters following ; wherin he objects wilful deceit to the Fathers . HItherto our Oratour has opened those Pleas , which , in a manner , of necessity follow'd that multitude of books the Fathers have written : and would , if we could believe him , perswade us , Nothing is to be learn'd or understood out of Books ; but every three words wil never fail to have some reason or other to make them so obscure , that no light or satisfaction can be derived out of them . Nor is all this enough , unless he gives them a touch of wilfulness : which he does upon three Heads . First , from their writing Commentaries : where he notes , that many times they recite others opinions , without naming the parties ; whence he would infer that , out of their Commentaries , nothing can be gather'd concerning their own judgment , in the point they handle . I cannot deny , but such kind of commenting is sometimes used : nor do I understand why it should be reprehensible , to propose to the Reader choice judgments of divers eminent learned Persons , even of Hereticks somtimes , at least in St. Hieroms days , when there were not so many Catholick writers , that all good explications might be found in them , though this honest man ( who , otherwise is no enemy of liberty in Authors , and opinions ) be , at present , for his interest , offended with it . But , we can come to no assurance of the Authors mind ; what then ? If we do not see directly what he inclines to , ( though ordinarily some liking is shew'd more to one opinion then another ; ) yet we may know , he proposes all interpretations for the reader to chuse as he pleases ; which implys , that he saw no apparent inconvenience in any . But , why is this manner of commenting made a calumny against all the rest , being a particular kind and not much used ? why brought for a prejudice against such places where only one opinion is mentioned ? why is St. Hieroms indefinite doctrin ( which imports no more then that such is the nature of some Commentaries ) turn'd to an Universal , as if none should do otherwise ? Let him reflect upon Beza's or other of his own parties glosses ; and see whether they do not somtimes explicate Scripture in a way equally obnoxious to the same exceptions . I deny not , but St. Hierom , ( once surpriz'd by St. Austin in a weak explication upon a passage to the Galathians ) excuses himself by a confession , that his memory being confused , he had in that place mingled his own opinion with other mens , without distinction : But , is it not an excellent piece of honesty , out of one only particular defect of one Father , to draw an imputation , not upon him alone , but on the whole Senate of Antiquity ? And yet , this thread runs quite thorow this captious Objectors Book ; whose labour is , out of a mole in her face , to prove Venus was not fair . Then he procesds to tax St. Ambrose and St. Hillary , for borrowing doctrin of Origen , without citing the original : as if Virgil should have still named Homer , in all the places wherin he imitated him ; or Torquato Tasso told his reader , which Stanza's were his own invention , which translated out of others . His second discontent is , that , when a passage of Holy Scripture is acknowledg'd by the Fathers to be capable of divers interpretations , yet they will presume to use that sense only which is convenient to their Auditory , omitting the others which , in those circumstances , make nothing to their purpose . The like distaste he takes against them , when speaking of a Mystery that has two parts , they do not still make mention of both : as , since Christ is God and Man , he will by this rule be offended , that a Father should stile him God , without expressing in the same breath ( though altogether unnecessary to his Theam ) that he was Man ; as if we could not , somtimes upon occasion , omit what we never intend to deny , but were still bound to clog our discours with all the jealous cautions of a Lawyers Indentures : though indeed , he seems only troubled , when this happens concerning the blessed Sacrament : for then , it utterly disappoints the force of those Arguments he so highly esteems . Nor does his peevishness stay at these smaller Peccadillo's ; but , to fill up the measure of his anger and farther enforce the accusation he sees himself engag'd in , his bold hand trembles not plainly to insinuate , that the Fathers are in plain terms downright cheaters : contriving these omissions and ambiguity's , not by wisdom and pastoral prudence , but by cunning and hypocritical policy , with a malicious intention to delude their auditory . But these are little familiar stroaks , and kind expressions of his devotion and respect to the Fathers , and the Church in whose communion they liv'd , and Him in whose precious death both They and It are founded . His last crimination confists meerly in a repetition of what we discuss'd in the former Chapter , about the Fathers speeches ad hominem : yet , because he has a little changed his temper , we must observe what he says . First , being in a kind humour , he now imputes it only to excess of passion in the good old men , ( as if the former had been out of malice ) which made them speak they knew not what : wheras , the Ages after them , explicating such passages of their Predecessors , attribute it to deep wisdom and solid learning . Secondly , he shews us , out of St. Hierom , how all Authors use two ways of disputing ; one direct and demonstrative or demonstration like , another Topical and tentative : but to what purpose , more then to form an aery apprehension , in the readers head , of some strange fallacy's and abuses ordinarily practised by those ancient Maintainers of Christianity , I understand not . Yet , there remains about two lines of Latin ; which his jugling art has obscur'd into a necessity of a short explication : and they are , that interdum coguntur loqui non quod sentiunt , sed quod necesse est dicant contra ea quae dicunt gentiles , which is as much as to say , they are forc'd somtimes not to contradict the Gentils propositions , that they may impugn them with better advantage . As when they seem to admit the truth of some Oracles , and apply their discourse only to shew how such extraordinary actions might be perform'd by the Devil : wheras perhaps , in their inward thoughts , they believ'd there were really none true , or , if any , that they were by Gods interposing his own power , to the Gentils confusion , as he did in the apparition of Samuel to Saul , the Witch not being able to raise up souls by the single force of her charms . One new demand he urges , which seems and indeed is strangly impertinent , Whether it be a part of our Faith , to visit the Holy Land : as if those words of St. Hierom , adorâsse ubi steterunt pedes Domini , pars fidei est , signify'd truly , that to exercise adoration were an Article of Faith ; then which , what can be spoken more sencelesly ? wheras , the true meaning is plain and obvious , that t is a duty of Faith , or an action proceeding from Faith , or conformable to Faith ; in which sense , 't is impossible to make any rational opposition against it . I must not end without taking notice of a goodly piece of wit in mis-translating a passage of St. Hierom ; wh entreats his reader to judg his meaning out of his whole discours , and non in uno atque eodem libro criminari , me diversas sententias protulisse , not to accuse me , that I am of divers minds in the self-same Book , which this good natur'd Interpreter explicates , and not presently to accuse any Author of blockishness , for having deliver'd in one and the same Book two contrary opinions . Nevertheless , himself has been , I will not say , so blockish , ( for of that ther 's too little cause to suspect him ) but so slight and precipitate , as to put the very Latin words in the Margin , which is , as neer as can be , to contradict himself in the same breath . In four ensuing Chapters he delivers us certain notes ; which are in substance true , but bring not much obscurity or other disablement to the way of proving Religion by the writings of Fathers : and if they did , he and his new party remembring they wholly refuse the judgment of their Ancestors , need not trouble themselvs ; but stand upon their exceptions , and leave the Catholiks to make their arguments sound and free from all legitimate repuls . For this is the law of Logick and reasoning , that the Actor should have liberty to frame his opposition ( so it be according to the rules of discourse ) as himself thinks best . With this caveat I might justly omit these four Chapters ; were it not that in his eighth he has a note of remark out of Tertullian , as requiring only that the Rule of Faith continue in its proper form and order , Caeterùm , manente formâ ejus in suo ordine , quantum libet quaeras & tractes , & omnem libidinem curiositatis effundas : to which he adds Ruffinus his Apology for Origen , as of the same opinion ; and seems to take it for the practice of the present Church : And truly , I think with great reason . For , as far as I understand Religion , Nothing makes an Heretick , but to recede from the known doctrin of the present Church , which she practises as deriv'd from Christ , and wherof she knows no other beginning : He that is not conscious to himself of this , is no Heretick before God ; and he that carries that guilt in his breast is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 whatever seeming reasons he has for himself : and whoever teaches any point contrary to this tradition , not knowing such contrariety , teaches indeed Heresie , but is no Heretick : Let them agree in this chief Principle or Rule of Faith , and the rest wil be only material errours in them . But , the cause they perversly defend is inconsistent with any such submission : their own Consciences and the evidence of the fact stigmatising their unlawful breach from the universal doctrin of the Church , from which they rebelliously separated themselvs . As to the Fathers opinion , concerning the necessity of the Eucharist for Infants , he must give us leave to think the Council of Trent was better informed then he ; as is , in the precedent Apologie briefly discussed . That , St. Ignatius cals him a murderer of Christ who fasts Saturdaies , signifies no more then that he does an action which of its nature testifies our Saviour died twice , that is , upon Saturday as wel as Friday : though this man of truth in his first chapter vouchsafes not to admit any writings of St. Ignatius for true . The aspersion laid upon St. Hierom , St. Ambrose , annd Tertullian , as using Tragical expressions , without occasion , is but a gap to Libertinage and vilifying of vertue ; their sayings being true , though this Reformer dislike them . His urging , that the modern points of Controversie are not resolv'd in former Creeds or Councils , is of little importance : for every one knows subsequent Councils have alwaies been so far from thinking it unlawful to add to the former , that such additions are the very business and end of their assembling : and yet ( as the seventh Council testify'd ) they confirm'd all that was either in Scripture or Tradition , by binding us to these two pillars of truth . He is farther troubled , that divers Provinces should out of St. Hierom's authority , esteem the commands they finde have been in use among their forefathers , to be institutions deriv'd from the Apostles : as if either the Apostles might not have left divers customs , in divers places , for some practices of less concernment ; or that , in St. Hieroms time , it was so hard to know when a custom of importance started , if it began since the Apostles , which could be scarce three hundred yeers . In the last Chapter of his first Book he thinks it impossible to know the belief of the ancient Church , either universal or particular , touching any point of controversies now debated among us . And truly , as he understands the question , he seems to have some reason : for , he professes that all the positive evidence out of Antiquity comes short of satisfying him , unless we can make good that no one did in those daies secretly hold the contrary ; a proof that certainly none but a mad man would either expect of another , or himself attempt . Nevertheless , this he exacts of us , and therfore cites St. Hierom for the equality of Priests and Bishops : though he writes expresly against it , and the place he cites clearly speaks of the confusion of the names of Presbyter and Episcopus . Likewise , when St. Hierom testify's some Bishops held with Vigilantius , he thinks that sufficient to make St. Hieroms side not universal : as if Bishops could not be Hereticks . He adds , St. Hierom , by his passionate speeches against Vigilantius , derogats from the authority of his testimony . I believe him , if he speaks of his own party , who are easily perswaded to diminish the credit of Fathers : but not , if he mean among Catholicks , who think the modern Heretiks no better then Vigilantius and his followers . Thus have we briefly pass'd over his first Book . THE SIXTH SURVEY . How the Authority of Fathers is infallible . Yet these last five Chapters and the whole next Book will put us to the pains of explicating what Authority Catholiks give the Fathers , towards decision of controversies ; and how they are to argue out of them , if they intend to conclude any opposite opinion an Heresy . To be as short and clear in this point as I can ; I shall begin with some propositions wherin I believe , all sides agree . First , that the Fathers , as particular Authors , might erre ; and no one 's single testimony , how eminent soever , is sufficient to make a necessary Verity , upon the sole account of being his judgment . Secondly , that seldom or never , in any controversy , the Fathers , cited for one part , are so many , as to make the doctrin deliver'd a matter of Faith , out of this precise reason that it is their opinion : For , though their multitude should arrive to the full sum of three hundred , yet it exceeds not the number of Heretiks , nay , even Heretik Bishops , who unanimously conspir'd to oppose the Catholick Faith. If then , all certainty of things contingent and fallible , in their individuals , depend upon universality ; and the number we discours of , though great , yet consider'd in its own immediate force , make but a particular : it cleerly follows , No question can be evidently convinc'd by the pure numerosity of produced Fathers . Thus far I conceive both parties are bound to consent . My third proposition therfore is , If a certain number of Fathers be sufficient to convince the universality of an opinion in the Church ; how little soever that number be , 't is strong enough to support an Article of Faith : not because it is their opinion , but the Churches ; attested by them to be the Faith of the Church , and by the Church to be Christs . And thus remains declared what Authority Catholiks attribute to the Fathers in reference to deciding Controversy's . The next point is , about the exercise of this Authority : how a Catholick writer may , by the testimony of Fathers , conclude the general Faith of the Church , and , consequently , the infallibility of the point controverted . For which we must lay these grounds . First , that it has always been the nature of the Catholik Church , to decline communion with those Churches she esteem'd erroneons in any material point ; as , Idolatry , Superstition , and the like , upon which pretences , our modern presumers for Reformation have separated themselvs from the present Catholik Church : wherfore , if there be convincing testimonies , that any one particular Church ( so known and considerable that the neighbouring Provinces must needs take notice of its publick customs ) embraces any doctrin or practice , yet remains still peaceably in communion with the Vniversal ; 't is therby convinc'd the whole Catholick Church held the same not to be Idolatrous , Superstitious , &c. If then the point be of such a nature , that one part of the contradiction must necessarily be receiv'd , and the other rejected , it unavoydably follows , the whole Church in that Age was of the same judgment with the particular one . Nor is the evidence of this proposition built upon some scrap of an ancient Writer mis-interpreted , as our Adversaries would infer the contrary from three lines of Hegesippus ; but upon the essential notion of the Church , which is to be the conserver of Christs doctrin , upon the whole body of Ecclesiastical History , which contains nothing but either the propagation of the faith or the expulsion of those that would corrupt it ; And lastly , upon the universality of Christian writers , whose profession and businesse it has always been to instruct the Church in the doctrin of Christ and oppose all abuses that offer'd to insinuate themselvs under the name of reformation , or whatever other specious mask Heresy has put on , to cover the ilfavordness of her face . And now we may safely proceed to the second ground , that if the testimony of Fathers convince the quiet possession of any doctrin in one age , it concludes the same of all ages that are known to communicate with it : which is , in effect , with all precedent and subsequent Ages whom either that acknowledges , or who acknowledg that for their Teacher and Mistress . This consequence from the former principle is so evident , that I may boldly , yet without presumption infer , if we can prove one Age , we prove all . But to make it plainer : let me borrow out of our Adversaries ingenuity , that the same doctrin has endur'd these thousand years ; which restrains our controversy only to the first six hundred : and that common sense cannot say Popery was rank in the sixth Age , but it must have been well grown in the fifth ; which will still contract our strife , to the compass of four hundred years : wherof , three were undoubtedly acknowledg'd Parents and Mistresses of the fourth , and the fourth of two or three following ; one of which is confest , to be universally over-run with Popery . So that , we need no more pains , but only to prove that some one Age of the first six hundred years embrac'd any doctrin ( of a nature substantial and considerable as is above exprest ) to convince all the rest of the same belief : else the Adversary must shew the latter Age disavowing the faith of their Ancestors , and anathematizing it as heretical , and in the same or equivalent terms , as our late Reformers cry out against the Catholik unity , or Catholicks against their division . For , if the younger Ages reverence and plead conformity with the ancienter : 't is impossible they should have changed any doctrin of importance or necessity . My third ground is , that when we speak of the Faith of the Church , we intend not to say , No single person may think otherwise or be ignorant of it , and yet live bodily and exteriourly in the communion of that Church : but we speak of the professed and publick belief of all , both Clergy and Laity which meet at Gods service in such a Church : As all that meet at Charanton are supposed to agree in the Articles , which the Kings Edicts permit to be held by the pretenders to Reformation ; Yet I believe there are few Englishmen who consent to all , though they resort thither : So that , by this position , it may stand with the general or universal faith of one part of the contradiction , that some few maintain the opposite Judgment : By these three grounds , you wil finde most of his doubts and pretended difficulties , in the five last chapters , taken away , and the possibility of demonstrating a point out of the Fathers rendred very apparent and practicable : wherfore we have now a little leasure to shake out his other bundle of Rags , and see whether we can espy any thing , there , that may entangle a weak Divine . THE SEVENTH SURVEY . Of the four first Chapters of his second Book : wherin he pretends , The Fathers gave wrong notions of the Faith of the Church ; and that they spake not like Judges . THis Chapter he begins very modestly , and says , the Fathers testimonies of the Churches Faith are not alwaies true : His first example is in that question , Whether our soul comes by creation or from our Parents ; in which , St. Hierom brings the verdict of the Churches against Ruffinus : but 't is evident , this objection fails , because we doubt not some one or few learned men may hold against the tenet of the Church they live in . His second exception he cites out of Johannes Thessalon , whom he makes in his translation , say , the Church held Angels had subtile and aery bodies ; but in his marginal Greek ( a language few understand , and so not many are like to discover his art ) there is no such thing : only this , that the Church knows Angels to be intelligent creatures , but not whither they are incorporeal or have subtile bodies . His third instance is , where Petavius reprehends St. Epiphanius , for saying , It was an Apostolical Tradition to meet thrice a week to communicate : I doubt wrongfully ; For what probability can there be , that some Apostle should not have left such a Custom in some Province , if it were on foot in St. Epiphanius his time ? besides , this Petavius is noted for an easie censurer of his betters ; nor does the matter deserve any farther inspection . The next he borrows from the same Authour , against Venerable Bede ; and 't is a meer equivocation , upon the ambiguity of this word fides : which may signifie an Historical perswasion , or a Traditional certitude ; in which last sense Petavius took it , whereas Venerable Bede pronounced it in the former . His second Chapter tels us , the Fathers confess they are not to be believ'd upon thsir own bare words . Where I must intreat my Reader , to observe , that , If the Fathers he brings speak of one or few , we acknowledge they are not to be trusted on their word ; and so , have no controversie with him ; But , if he would make them speak of the whole Collection , he cites nothing to the purpose ; but all he brings , reach no farther then the first sense ; and have no opposition with the saying of others , who command us to follow the doctrin and even the words of our Ancestors . He is offended with Sozomen , for saying , None of the Ancients ever affirm'd , the Son of God had any beginning of his generation ; considering certain passages of theirs , which yet himself has confessed before , that St. Athanasius , Basil , and others have cleared from any such sense . He calumniats an excellent place of Vincentius Lyrinensis , explicating what the universality of Fathers means , and how their sentence is of force . His first quarrel is , that Lyrinensis requirs , they must have lived and died both for doctrin and manners , in the communion of the Catholik Church ; which , he says , cannot be known , unless first we are sure their doctrin was sound : Not seeing alas , that their living and dying with reputation of Sanctity , gives them this honourable prejudice , To be esteem'd , both for life and doctrin , sincere and unsuspected Catholiks , til the contrary be proved . His second quarrel is against the number Lyrinensis assigns to be , al or the greatest part : which certainly is meant of Authors then extant , who had written in some age before the controversie arose ; wherof , such a number as may make us understand what was the belief of that Age , is sufficient ; all the rest being ad abundantiam . For 't is plain , Lyrinensis held clearly the Catholik opinion , that the Church never perished ; and consequently , the Faith of one Age was , with him , the faith of all . But , this good guesser would perswade us no such evidence can be had ; and instead of proof , makes this wild conjecture , that for ought he knows the greatest part of the Fathers was of the contrary mind to those we have extant : which is just such an argument , as if one should suppose that were all the Roman Writers extant , perhaps the greatest part would tel us , Pompey overthrew Caesar , and that the Roman Empire was alwaies after govern'd by a Senate and Tribuni plebis , til the Goths over-ran it . His third Exception is against those conditions , That the Fathers must have said or testified such a truth clearly , often , and constantly ; which he thinks impossible to be found : but let him leave that to the Actors . He therfore rather chuses to fide with St. Austin : but what says he ? He tels Julian the Pelagian , Puto tibi eam partem or bis sufficere debere , in quâ primum Apostolorum suorum voluit Dominus gloriosissimo Martyrio coronari ; this , after he had cited the testimonies of only Latin Fathers : But when he had cited Fathers of both Churches , he argues thus : Si Episcopalis Synodus ex toto orbe congregaretur , mirum si tales possent illic facile tot sedere , quia nec isti uno tempore fuerunt ; sed fideles & multis excellentiores , paucos dispensatores suos Deus per diversas aetates , temporum , locorumque distantias , sicut ei placet atque expediri judicat , ipse dispensat . Hos itaque de aliis atque aliis temporibus atque Regionibus ob Oriente & Occidente congregatos vides , &c. In which Discourse St. Austin taking for a principle , that the Writers in any age are ordinarily of the most eminent for learning , and indeed of so high a degree , that we cannot expect many such at the same time , concludes the consent of Fathers , which he had cited , more assured and satisfactory then a General Council : Now , what apprehension he had of a General Council , is wel known to any , who has made a little acquaintance with that Saints writings . Fain also would this pious man fix the slander , upon Vincentius Lyrinensis , of being a Semi-Pelagian , out of far fetch'd surmises ; which I pardon him , because that Father sits very hard upon his and his brethren-Separatists skirts . In the ensuing chapter his pretence is to shew the Fathers did not write like Judges sitting upon a Bench to give sentence ; a cavil which neither any wil dispute with him , nor is to his purpose : But , by the pursuit it appears , he only rang'd about for an occasion to vilifie the Fathers , by citing or publishing a catalogue of such weaknes as he had espyd in them . The first he notes , is of Hast they used in their works ; the next some mistakes in Chronology or History , wherof one I cannot omit , because he lays it upon them all generally , That Nilus was one of the Rivers mention'd to water Paradise : against which he cals for witnesse Scaliger and Petavius ; the former of whom I cannot blame ▪ seeing he was not born to reverence the Fathers ; the other in this confirms the censuring humour before spoken of in him : But , for the opinion it self , it is very true , as may appear in the Appendix to Institutiones Peripateticae . Afterwards he nibbles at their Philosophy and Grammar ; then , accuses their weak memories ; lastly , quarrels with their Allegorical explications . Surely , if he had found an exact history of their lives , he would have chid some of them for wanting good Voyces , or being but indifferent Musitians , or not having learnt in the French Academies to dance , fence , and complement a la mode . THE EIGHTH SURVEY . Of the two last Chapters of his second Book : wherein he says many Fathers have agreed in the same Errours ; and objects certain vanities between the Ancient and Modern Church . IN his fourth Chapter he proposes , that the Fathers have not only err'd singly , but whole Troops of them together : which though it be nothing to the purpose , as not touching the precise point controverted betwixt us , since the Fathers authority is from their concurrence in attesting an universal Belief as witnesses , and not in delivering their Judgment as Doctors ; Yet has our Gallant bestir'd himself notably in this point , because his true intention was to take all reverence from the Fathers , though he cunningly with a smooth tongue professes the contrary . But he has another piece of legier-de-main , very proper to abuse an unwary Reader ; For he neither distinguishes the quality of errours , whither in Faith , Philosophy , or History , nor their degree , and so makes the good silly people of his Sect conceive , every mistake of any Father an errour , and every errour a gross one ; knowing that , when he mentions the word errour in relation to the Fathers , all his Hugonots presently imagin it to be in doctrin , and great enough to condemn and forsake them . Besides , he never thinks of explicating what many signify's in respect to the number of the Fathers , so that , three or four may pass with him for a multitude . Another jugling trick he has to cast any shadow of words into such a posture , that they seem clearly convinc'd of errour . As , if a Father say , God governs the World by Angels ; he 'l make it sound , as if God knew not what was done here below . Then , of his own accord hee 'l take for granted divers positions , as if they were confest errours , which are first to be proved such ; as , That some souls are kept in Receptacles till the day of Judgment , &c. The length of the Chapter and its confusedness in not distinguishing private errours from publick , and the multitude of his mistakes , favourable to his own side , deter me from spending my time upon the fals proofs of a confessed , or at least not controverted Conclusion : For truly , if I would take the pains , I doubt not to make appear , the greatest part of them are as weak as malicious , towards the scandalizing those great Persons he calumniat's . But because St. Hierom is accounted by the Sectaries their special friend , and one that spares not to give them the truth home ; this grateful man in counterchange , spends four whole leavs in his cōmendation , as you may understand by his general judgment upon him : telling us that the cours he ordinarily uses in his disputations , is wresting the words of his Adversarys quite besides the Authors intention ; and framing to himself such a sense as is not at all to be found in them : and then fiercly encountring this Gyant of his own making , mixing withal base abusive Language and biting girds , and the like tart expressions borrow'd from Prophane Authors , in which kind of learning he was indeed very excellent . Of this modest censure he pretends no less then one example for proof , and that far short of justifying his bold imputation . The mischance was that in a certain controversy betwixt St. Austin and him , he mistook at first St. Austins meaning , from whence this charitable Interpreter suspects he never delt any better with others ; and after the sentence so impudently pronounc'd , rely's upon this bare suspition as a sufficient evidence . Then he proceeds to another game he plays very much at , call'd calumny , and charges the same Father first about Gods knowing smal things : but it is apparent out of the very citation that St. Hieroms intention is not of speculative knowledg , but particular providence , of which St. Paul said ▪ nunquid Deo cura est de bobus ? His second instance contradicts his former ; For it is , that Saints are everywhere ; which is spoken of their knowledg , not corporal presence : Christ , by whose company , they are pretended to be everywhere , being so by his sight and knowledg , not by his presence corporally : Which this Friend saw was contrary to the former , yet would not make use of it to reconcile , but aggravate the errours . Thirdly he accuses him to say , that the Souls of the blessed Saints and Angels are subject to sin : but cites not a syllable , except for Angels , which so express'd , is an undenyable truth , being no more then that Angels by envy , became Divels . But his irreconcilable quarrel is against marriage and what St. Hierom writes of Ladies respects to their families : that they did not marry the second time , he interprets as intended against marriage it self . I confess , as concerning the act of marriage or appetite to it , he says more what is true , then perhaps what is convenient to be spoken before Persons that should not be dehorted from a thing so necessary in divers cases , wherin the temperance , not use is honourable . He goes on and now charges this old severe Father with a scandalous doctrin indeed , an intolerable heresy , wherin all true Reform'd stomacks are fundamentally concern'd ; for he accuses him to say in express terms that eating of flesh ( a most wholsome custome ) was abolish'd by Jesus Christ ; but , citing neither words nor place , and afterward drawing it in by a fals consequence , makes me suspect it is an arrant forgery . Again he accuses him of saying oaths were unlawful : but in truth the words of the very Scripture are harder , then St. Hieroms . The next errour is , that he thought the validity of consecration depended on the sanctity of the Priest : but his words are so common they easily receive explication . Again , he is offended with him for denying faintly , that the blessed eat in Heaven . Lastly , he accuses him of abusing St. Paul ; and first of contradicting him about the inscription of the Athenian Altar : because he says there was more in the inscription , then the Apostle mention'd ; Secondly that he said , he understood more then he could explicate . Thirdly that to the Galathians he spake ordinary discourses , because they were not capable of higher . Of these three the first had no harm in it , since all the Evangelists do not cite the whole title of our Saviours Cross , the two latter Dignify a great commendation of St. Paul among wise men and such as understand there is any other learning besides well speaking . I must not pass without one word of Ruffinus too : because our Reformers account of so fundamental a passage of his , in the interpretation of the Canons of the Council of Nice touching the Popes authority : And this great Patron of theirs cals , him an arrant wooden Statue ; A pitiful thing ; One that had scarce any reaon in what he said , and yet much less dexterity in defending himself . Must not then what is grounded upon his property and excellency of language , be a perfect foundation for a point of faith ? By these you may guess how he has dealt with others , which were too long to examin . Approaching to the end of his Chapter , he specify's some errours unanimously held by a just number of the Fathers . First , that of the Chiliasts ; an objection already answered in the former part of this discourse . The second is , the reservation of souls from heaven till the day of Judgment ; which is refuted in a little Treatise entitled , De medio animarum statu : The third concerns rebaptization of Heteticks ; which also is cleared above : only I cannot forget how he would insinuate that St. Basil held it , after the decision of the Council of Nice ; but his mincing the matter , by saying in a manner , shews it is only a largess of his good will , and not any evidence he brings . Next he urges fiercly a point of Chronology ; and then , the Angels having bodies ; and after that , the Angels falling in love with women : three points not very material . Then again , he repeats the necessity of the Eucharist to Infants ; but brings in rather testimonies of the practice , which is not in question , then of the necessity , which is : And lastly , that all the Greek Fathers and a great part of the Latins held Gods foresight of mens good and bad works to be the cause of predestination ; but his authority depending only on modern Writers saying so , whose diligence in examining their meanings is not known , it might as wisely have been omitted . In this next Chapter , he intends to prove that some Fathers have strongly maintain'd , against others , some opinions in matters of very great importance ; which is but one half of what follows from , or rather is directly contain'd in , the conclusion of the former Chapter , and therfore , not denyed by us nor useful to him : which was the cause why he would not there add ( though the place were very proper ) that they defended such opinions against the whole current of others , and of the Church . But to make a seeming new argument , he left out this , and exprest himself generally , like a true deceiver , that some defended against others : and to give his discours the better relish , he begins his antipast with calumniating Bessarion , making him say that the Fathers opinions never clash one against another , touching the points of our Religion ( for a Person so learned could not be ignorant , that some errour might be found in a Father against the cōmon consent of the rest : ) But , his meaning was , that not so many could dissent , as were able to make a party against the general agreeing judgment of the rest ; neither does our Informer seek to prove the contrary . In his first instance , if he had put in , that Justin , Irenaeus and Tertullian had held the Millenary Heresy , against the communalty of Christians of their Age , he had ruin'd his own proof ; which , nevertheless he might have done out of Justinus , ( as is declared ) and indeed was obliged to do , if he intended to proceed pertinently . But what should I pain my self in a question not controverted ? Only I cannot omit a subtlety he uses against St. Cyril and Theodoret. St. Cyril had said , The Holy Ghost was proper to the Son. Theodoret distinguishes his words , saying , if he means by proper proceeding as well as the Son , or , of the same nature , so he allows the saying : but , if he means that he proceeded from or by the Son only ( both which terms were then in use ; for this and nothing els can be signify'd by proper added to from or by ) then he condemn'd St. Cyrils doctrin . Now our sly Interpreter would make Theodoret condemn this saying , that the Holy Ghost proceeded from the Son. His last reason is one that makes all the rest impertinent ; and shews they were dilated only to vilify the Saints and the Church , whose Crown they are , and the Founder of the Church , who glorify'd himself in Them and Her : 'T is , that the Church of Rome and Protestants agree in the position he seemed to labour at so hard ; what need or occasion had he then to rave into the Fathers about a point wherin there is not the least difference among us ? Next , he excepts at our Controvertists , for alledging the Fathers against them ; since we know they receive not the Fathers . I answer , there is by nature planted in all honest dispositions , such a respect to their Ancestors ; that , though the malicious part of their congregation , and this Sophister in chief , cry down Antiquity , as loud as they can , yet shal they never be able wholly to root out of the hearts and consciences of the generality of Christians , that esteem and reverence which they naturally bear in their Breasts towards the Fathers of Christianity ; So that our Controvertists cite writings of those ancient and holy Doctors , not in reference to the ensoured and barbarous party of Hereticks ; but for their sakes , who yet retain some spirits of goodness and Christian humanity in them . Then he brings divers sayings of Moderns to prove the Authorities of Fathers are not irresistible , especially in the interpretation of Scripture ; among which one somthing insolent . Afterwards , he reckons the varieties betwixt the ancient and present Church ; some in Ceremonies , some in Disciplin , and some , as he pretends , in Belief : these later we have touch'd before ; the two former , for the most part , we make no difficulty to acknowledge , since the prudential disposure of such discretionary points fals cleerly within the verge of the Churches jurisdiction . But here I particularly invite the Ey of the serious Reader , to observe how maliciously he corrupts the Council of Trent , in two very considerable passages : one , where he says , It anathematizes whoever shall deny that Bishops are a higher Order then Priests : wheras in the Latin ( which himself has the boldness to cite truly in the Margin ) ther 's no such word to be found as Order ; but only that Bishops are superiores Presbyteris , a phrase implying no necessiy at all of their being several Orders ; though in that word consists the whole emphasis of his fals imputation . His other abuse is yet more gross and palpable , concerning our Ladies immaculate Conception ; for the Council expresly declaring their intention was not to meddle with the Question , he says 't is impossible so to expound their words that they shall in plain terms give the ly to all the Fathers : and to render this foul play the more plausible among such as look not wel to his fingers , he translates in hoc decreto falsly and perversly in this number , as if the Council had positively decreed the Blessed Virgin not to be in the number of those who are born in original sin ; when their very words directly tel him they on purpose resolv'd to prescind from her particular Case , and not determin any thing concerning It in that Decree . Certainly , had this man either face or conscience , an ordinary malice could never have engag'd him into such a desperate absurdity , so notorious , that its practice cannot be unknown even to him , though he shut his Eyes against the light ; since all disputers upon this point unanimously agree , that the Council intended wholy to abstract from the question , and leave both sides probable : nevertheless this shameless forehead dares , in such broad and unmannerly language , not only slander a grave and venerable Council , but outface the whol Catholick world . What trust can be given to so bold a Jugler in matters either of less moment or less evidence ; when in a Case so important , as the Decree of a Council , and so palpably manifest , that all that can read may easily discover the cheat , yet he blushes not to venter on 't ? can any thing be answered in his defence , or any excuse made , why he should not be accounted an impudent lying knave ? THE NINTH SURVEY . In answer to two Questions , in his last Chapter ; One , the Fathers being rejected , to what Judg we ought to recur : The other , what use is to be made of the Fathers ? ALl this while our new Edifyer of the reform'd Temple has us'd only his Sword-hand to keep off those dangerous enemies the Fathers ; now he begins to manage his trowel , and bedawb the face of antiquity with a little fine morter : Let 's see at least what work he makes ; though we have smal reason to expect any good building from him that is not able so much as to pull down . Thus , then , workman-like , he enters upon his task ; demanding of himself this question , the Fathers being rejected , where shall we now lay our foundation ? to what Rule or Judge must we have recourse ? He answers , To the Scripture ; and if in any one place it seem obscure , we must then seek out another to clear it . Which first supposes , that for all points necessary , there are some evident and clearing Texts : But I must ask , on what Authority he believes this ? doth the Scripture declare it so plainly , that ther 's no debate about it ? He knows the whole Catholik Church denys any such self-evident alsufficiency in Scripture . Did they , who delivered him and his Brethren the Bible , recommend it to them under this qualification ? No : for his party went out of the Catholik Church , and receiv'd the Scriptures from none but Her , who never taught them any such lesson . Perhaps you 'l say , all other Christians testify'd the verity of that book , and so upon their credit you are the more induc'd to accept it . But those Christians are such as your selvs generally condemn : such as have been cast out , for taking this very proposition , to justifie their rebellion against Her , whom you acknowledge , then , to have been the true Owner and Mistris of Christs Doctrin . Besides , any one that has but half an Ey may see , no Scripture-disputation with Heretiks was ever finisht , without new reply's ; but the Church has alwaies been forc'd at last to condemn them , upon the score of Tradition . Thus you borrow'd this desperate device , from those who in all ages were thrust out of the same Church , for holding the very same principles . But suppose there were some clear Texts in our Controversies ( as we think there are in disfavour of you ; ) may they not be rendred obscure by other places objected against them ; which we pretend you endeavour to doe . If so , your remedy is worse then the evil ; and the comparing of divers places is the very cause that makes all balanceable , indifferent and obscure . Are we not now reduc'd to a hopeful condition of living hereafter in a perpetual and unavoidable unity of Religion : especially since an hundred yeers experience sadly demonstrates what we say to be true ? Besides , why does not this good Orator spend some time to shew us , that his Arguments have not as much force against Scripture , as against the Fathers ? I confess , he has hinted it sometimes ; like one that saw the objection so obvious , it could not be forgotten : yet was unwilling to wade the Ford , for fear he should find it too deep . To supply therfore his omission , I shall observe one considerable difference betwixt the Scripture and Fathers , as far as concerns these objections . Which consists in this , that the Fathers works are many and copious ; The Scriptures bulk every Maid can tell that carry's her Mistresses Book to Church . Whence it follows , that , as in a great Ocean there may be many Shelvs and Rocks , and Whirlpools , and whatever else is frightful to Sea men , and yet nevertheless a fair and large passage remain , either not at all endammaged by these perillous adventures , or only so , that they are easily avoyded by a careful Pilot : wheras in a narrow Channel or Frith , if we meet but half the number , there will be no sailing without manifest danger ; So I conceive between the Fathers and the Scripture . Every exception this Caviller alledges ( or at least provs ) may be true of their works , and yet more then sufficient left to convince Hereticks : but if Scripture be half as much disabled , it wil utterly lose its Protestant , pretended power of deciding controversys . A truth I believe Rushworth has abundantly demonstrated . For the variae lectiones are so many that they trench upon every line ; the several Translations give some little difference to every sentence ; the many Explications leave nothing untouch'd ; the Comparisons of one place to another may be more then there are words in the Text ; the places brought by one side and the other , so short that Equivocation has force upon every one ; the Languages in which they are written either Hebrew , whose titles breed a difference ; or Greek written by strangers and full of Improprieties ; the Method and Stile , the many repetitions and occasionary discourses speak plainly the design of the Apostles far different from intending their writings should contain a full body of Religion , much less to be the sole Judg to determin all contentions about faith . Yes wil he say , but there are more objections against the Fathers then against the Scripture . As that the writings of the Fathers for the first three Ages are few ; I confess it : but yet dare affirm , there is more of them then the whole Scripture makes . That the Fathers treat of matters different from our controversy's ; This is true , but so do the Scriptures . That there are supposititious works of the Fathers : Hereticks pretend the same against our Scriptures . That the Fathers speak according to others minds ; But the like is found in Scripture . And so going on , it will easily appear , the same objections or equivalent , might have bin made against Scripture , if Mr. Rushworth had thought them worthy the labour of setting down . Now , when these Books are put into a Vulgar language ( as is necessary to them , who pretend every one should be judge of their belief out of Scripture , by being first Judge of the sense of it , that is , of what is Scripture , for the dead letter is nothing to the purpose ) can it be less then madnes , to think of demonstrating a controverted position out of one or two places of Scripture ? And yet ( as I have before noted ) this Patron of Presbytery assures us , that we ought to believe nothing in point of Religion , but what we know to be certainly true ; which is evident , in his way , to be nothing at all . At last his own good nature has perswaded him to propose one profitable question , What use is to be made of Fathers for deciding Controversies ? And his first resolution is ( in the design of his Book , conformable to the fore-layd grounds ) that we ought to read them carefully and heedfully searching their Writings for their opinions , and not for our own . A wonderful wise conclusion ; especially considering , he says , the Reader must endeavour diligently to peruse them all . For my part , I should advise my friend rather to take his rest and sleep , then spend so much pains and time to search out what others have written ; which , when I have found , little imported what t was , or whether I knew it or no : this being the idlest and unworthiest sort of study , to know what such or such books say , without any farther end . Yet generally this is the great learning these Grammatical Divines glory in , not that they are better , even at this , then their Adversaries , but because they have no other : As if they had forgotten there were any solid knowledg to be sought after ; but , being blown like a thin empty glass into the windy substance of words , hang in the air , not having weight enough to settle upon firm ground . At least to maintain , the Fathers are not altogether vain and useless , he will teach us to argue negatively out of their writings ; as that such a position is not found in the Fathers , Ergo not necessary to be believ'd : and by this to reduce our Faith to that number of Articles , which they unanimonsly deliver . But he has forgot his own arguments : for since we have so few of their works , how can we tel the greater part did not teach somwhat necessary to be believ'd , which these have omitted ? since corruption enter'd into the Church immediatly after the Apostles decease ; why may not some considerable point be strangled in its infancy ? since the Fathers are so hard to be understood ; why may there not be many doctrins of importance , which we find not for want of quickness of sight to discover them ? and since they oppose one another in so many things , why may not , at least some one of these be a fundamental Article of Faith ? I cannot give over this discours concerning the testimony of the Fathers , without first observing a notorious cheat of our Adversary's , and too great an easiness in our own party : which once discover'd and perfectly understood , makes our cause so evident , that in my opinion there will be left no possibility of disputing about Antiquity . The business is this , Wheras their breach from the old Religion is so apparent and visible , ther 's not the least colour to doubt it ; we let our selvs by their cunning be drawn into dark and petty questions : and so lose the face of Antiquity , by disputing of some nice point . As for example ; when the Presbyterian has ruin'd the whole fabrick of the ancient Church by taking away Episcopal Authority ; instead of questioning them for so palpable an innovation , we unwarily suffer our selvs to be engag'd into the discussion of this partieular quaere ; Whether Bishops be de jure divino ? which cannot be determin'd by the vast body of Antiquity ( as the right and proper question may , to wit , what is the true government of the Church ? ) but by minute canvasing of private Texts , which is a far more difficult and altogether unnecessary method . Just so it happens in almost all Controversy's . For no doubt but Decision of matters of Faith was anciently perform'd in Councils , if the scandal grew so high as to force such general meetings : These , Hereticks absolutely renounce , preferring their private conceits before the judgment of all the Bishops in the world ; and then , if you press them with the palpable absurdity of so insolent and destructive a tenet , they presently cast a figure , and , instead of handling the plain duty of obedience to the supream Ecclesiastical Authority , transform the question into a meer speculative subtlety as , Wherin consists the infallibility of Councils ? For the Mass , our Reformers take it quite away , everywhere breaking down the Altars and abolishing the whole Glory of Gods service , which is unquestionably ancient ; so many Liturgy's to this day , and the general practice of the Church stil continuing : This done , they wil dispute of the antiquity of the word Missa or Transubstantiatio . For the Popes authority , they at one stroak cut a pieces the ligue and common bond of Christianity in the unity of one head , and force us to wrangle , either about his infallibility , or whether his power of Appeals be from Church-Laws or Christs commands ; and the like . They blot out the memories of Martyrs both in their solemn Feasts and Tombs : things undisputable in the glorious flourishing of the Church : and quarrel about what honour is due to their Lives , Reliques and Pictures . They disclaim the publick practice of praying for the dead , everywhere frequented , they deny the universal profession of Purgatory , in all ages avow'd , and then turn their exception upon How and When our prayers obtain their effect . They pul down Monasteries and Nunnery's , and abandon the extraordinary and exemplary way of holy life , which no impudence can deny to have been practis'd all the time the Church it self has bin publick ; and then dispute , whether St. John Baptist or the Esseni were Religious men or no , or when Vows came first in . Hypocrits ! if you reverence Antiquity , restore the face of Antiquity . If you truly honour Jesus Christ and his Saints , and vertuous life , and any thing but an Ear-itch to be claw'd by the phrase of Scripture , embrace what has been Christian life from the beginning . If not , fill up the measure of your first Reformers till the Judgments of God overtake you and make you pay the whol reckoning , for theirs and your own dissembling . I fear I have already wearied the patience of my Reader , I am sure I have long since quite tir'd my own : being unwillingly drawn by the many turns and windings of the subtle Fox I pursue , far beyond the cours intended at the beginning . To conclude then at last : I doubt not but he , who has not perus'd Mr. Daille's Book , will nevertheless , out of what I say , see plainly those Noble Lords , whose Elogies are posted before it , had great reason highly to esteem him . For truly his nimble Wit , his exact Method , his polite Style , his interlarding all with poignant and bitter Jeers , his knowledg in Greek , his cunning in Topicks ( of all which those eminent Wits were perfect Judges , being qualities themselvs were excellently endow'd with ) could not chuse but draw extraordinary praises from those eloquent Pens ; whose Masters had not the leasure , by tedious turning over Books and deep reflections upon the occasion of the cited places , to ponder the weight of the proofs , or see thorow the malice of the Project , which was of no less perni●lous consequence , then to slander and disparage the most glorious Persons of the World ; to blast the credit of all true Vertue and Honour , in their chief supports : to disable the sole Mistress of good life here ; and so , wholly to obstruct the only way to eternal happiness hereafter . FINIS . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A65773-e1540 Sr. K. D. L. Digby . L. Falkl.