The coppy of a letter sent from France by Mr. Walter Mountagu to his father the Lord Privie Seale, with his answere thereunto also a second answere to the same letter by the Faukland.
         Montagu, Walter, 1603?-1677.
      
       
         This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription A51177 of text R6266 in the  English Short Title Catalog (Wing M2472). Textual changes  and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more  computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life.  The text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with  MorphAdorner. The annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). Textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish.  This text has not been fully proofread 
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         Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 255:E168, no 1)
      
       
         
           
             The coppy of a letter sent from France by Mr. Walter Mountagu to his father the Lord Privie Seale, with his answere thereunto also a second answere to the same letter by the Faukland.
             Montagu, Walter, 1603?-1677.
             Falkland, Lucius Cary, Viscount, 1610?-1643.
             Manchester, Henry Montagu, Earl of, 1563?-1642.
          
           [2], 36 p.
           
             s.n.],
             [London? :
             1641.
          
           
             Reproduction of original in Thomason Collection, British Library.
          
        
      
    
     
       
         eng
      
       
         
           Catholic Church -- Controversial literature.
        
      
    
       A51177  R6266  (Wing M2472).  civilwar no The coppy of a letter sent from France by Mr. Walter Mountagu to his father the Lord Privie Seale, with his answere thereunto. Also a second Montagu, Walter 1641    13119 4 0 0 0 0 0 3 B  The  rate of 3 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the B category of texts with fewer than 10 defects per 10,000 words. 
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           THE
           COPPY
           OF
           A
           LETTER
           Sent
           from
           France
           by
           Mr.
           
             Walter
             Mountagu
          
           to
           his
           Father
           the
           Lord
           Privie
           Seale
           ,
           with
           his
           answere
           thereunto
           .
        
         
           ❧
           Also
           a
           second
           answere
           to
           the
           same
           Letter
           by
           the
           Lord
           
             Faukland
             .
          
        
         
         
           Imprinted
           ,
           1641.
           
        
      
    
     
       
         
           
           
           
             My
             Lord
             ,
          
        
         
           AFter
           much
           debate
           concerning
           the
           fittest
           expression
           of
           my
           duty
           to
           your
           Lordship
           ,
           whether
           I
           ought
           by
           silence
           seeke
           to
           suspend
           the
           beliefe
           of
           the
           declaration
           of
           my self
           ,
           I
           have
           made
           here
           ,
           or
           by
           a
           cleere
           profession
           of
           it
           assure
           you
           of
           what
           I
           may
           onely
           feare
           to
           present
           you
           with
           ,
           as
           apprehensive
           of
           a
           mis-interpreted
           affection
           ,
           I
           concluded
           what
           was
           most
           satisfactory
           to
           my
           first
           ,
           and
           immediate
           duty
           to
           God
           ,
           was
           most
           justifiable
           to
           my
           second
           ,
           and
           derivative
           to
           Nature
           ,
           therefore
           I
           resolved
           so
           soone
           to
           give
           you
           this
           ingenuous
           account
           of
           my selfe
           ;
           The
           greatest
           part
           of
           my
           life
           capable
           of
           distinction
           of
           Religions
           hath
           been
           employ'd
           in
           places
           and
           conversant
           with
           persons
           opposite
           to
           the
           faith
           I
           was
           bred
           in
           ,
           therefore
           it
           had
           been
           strange
           if
           naturall
           curiositie
           without
           any
           spirituall
           provocation
           had
           not
           invited
           mee
           to
           the
           desire
           of
           looking
           with
           mine
           own
           eyes
           upon
           the
           foundation
           I
           stood
           upon
           ,
           rather
           there
           holding
           fast
           blindfold
           by
           my
           education
           to
           agree
           to
           be
           carried
           away
           alwayes
           after
           it
           insensible
           of
           all
           shocks
           I
           met
           to
           unfasten
           me
           ,
           and
           besides
           
           I
           was
           solicited
           with
           the
           reproaches
           Protestants
           press
           upō
           Catholikes
           ,
           that
           they
           blindly
           believe
           al
           the
           impostures
           of
           the
           Church
           ,
           without
           any
           illumination
           of
           their
           judgements
           ;
           this
           me thought
           enjoyn'd
           the
           cleerest
           information
           of
           my self
           of
           the
           differences
           betweene
           us
           I
           could
           propose
           to
           my
           capacity
           .
           So
           at
           my
           last
           journey
           into
           
             Italy
             ,
          
           I
           did
           employ
           all
           my
           leasure
           to
           a
           more
           justifiable
           settlement
           of
           my
           belief
           ,
           as
           I
           then
           imagined
           to
           a
           cōfirmation
           of
           my
           judgment
           ,
           in
           what
           had
           been
           introduced
           by
           my
           birth
           and
           education
           ;
           I
           began
           with
           this
           consideration
           ,
           that
           there
           were
           two
           sorts
           of
           questions
           betweene
           the
           Catholikes
           and
           Protestants
           ,
           the
           one
           of
           right
           or
           doctrine
           ,
           the
           other
           of
           fact
           or
           story
           ;
           as
           this
           ,
           whether
           
             Luther
          
           were
           the
           first
           erector
           of
           the
           Protestants
           Faith
           ;
           whether
           it
           had
           a
           visible
           appearance
           of
           Pastors
           and
           Teachers
           before
           his
           time
           ?
           I
           resolved
           to
           begin
           my
           enquiry
           with
           the
           matter
           of
           fact
           ,
           for
           these
           Reasons
           ;
           first
           because
           they
           were
           so
           few
           ,
           and
           so
           comprehensible
           by
           all
           capacities
           ;
           and
           the
           controversies
           of
           doctrine
           intricate
           ,
           and
           so
           many
           ,
           as
           they
           required
           much
           time
           ,
           and
           learning
           for
           their
           disquisition
           onely
           ,
           and
           I
           found
           my self
           unprovided
           of
           both
           those
           Requisitions
           ,
           for
           this
           undertaking
           :
           and
           for
           the
           decision
           of
           the
           other
           ,
           I
           needed
           not
           much
           presumption
           to
           believe
           my selfe
           a
           competent
           Judge
           when
           it
           consisteth
           onely
           in
           a
           perusall
           of
           authentike
           testimonies
           ;
           Secondly
           ,
           I
           considered
           that
           there
           was
           no
           one
           part
           of
           controverted
           Doctrine
           ,
           whereon
           all
           the
           rest
           depended
           ,
           but
           that
           this
           one
           question
           of
           fact
           was
           such
           as
           the
           decision
           of
           it
           determined
           all
           the
           rest
           ;
           for
           if
           
             Luther
          
           could
           be
           proved
           to
           be
           the
           Innovator
           of
           the
           Protestants
           faith
           ,
           it
           was
           necessarily
           evicted
           of
           not
           being
           the
           true
           ,
           ancient
           ,
           and
           Apostolicall
           Religion
           ,
           therefore
           I
           began
           with
           this
           enquiry
           which
           Protestants
           are
           bound
           to
           make
           ,
           to
           answer
           this
           Objection
           ,
           to
           find
           out
           an
           existence
           of
           some
           Professors
           of
           the
           Reformed
           Doctrine
           
           before
           
             Luthers
          
           time
           ;
           for
           finding
           the
           Catholikes
           were
           not
           obliged
           to
           prove
           the
           Negative
           ,
           it
           was
           my
           part
           to
           prove
           to
           my selfe
           the
           Affirmative
           ,
           that
           our
           Religion
           was
           no
           Innovation
           by
           some
           Pre-existence
           before
           that
           ,
           but
           in
           the
           perusall
           of
           all
           the
           Stories
           or
           Records
           Ecclesiasticall
           or
           Civill
           ,
           as
           I
           could
           chuse
           ,
           I
           could
           finde
           no
           ancienter
           a
           dissention
           from
           the
           
             Roman
          
           Church
           ,
           then
           
             Waldo
             ,
             Wickliffe
             ,
          
           and
           
             Huffe
             ,
          
           whose
           cause
           had
           relation
           to
           the
           now-professed
           Protestancie
           ,
           so
           as
           I
           could
           find
           an
           intervall
           of
           about
           800
           yeers
           from
           the
           time
           that
           all
           Protestants
           confesse
           an
           unitie
           with
           the
           Church
           of
           
             Rome
             ,
          
           downe
           to
           those
           persons
           without
           any
           apparent
           profession
           of
           different
           faith
           :
           to
           answer
           my selfe
           in
           this
           point
           ,
           I
           read
           many
           of
           our
           Protestant
           Authours
           who
           treated
           of
           it
           ,
           and
           I
           found
           most
           of
           them
           reply
           to
           this
           sence
           ,
           in
           which
           I
           cite
           here
           one
           of
           the
           most
           authentike
           ,
           Doctor
           
             Whitaker
             ,
          
           in
           his
           Controversie
           2.
           3.
           .
           
             pag.
          
           479.
           
           Where
           they
           aske
           of
           us
           where
           our
           Church
           was
           heretofore
           for
           so
           many
           ages
           ?
           Wee
           answer
           that
           it
           was
           in
           secret
           solitude
           ,
           that
           is
           to
           say
           ,
           it
           was
           concealed
           and
           lay
           hid
           from
           the
           sight
           of
           men
           ;
           and
           further
           the
           same
           Doctor
           
             Chap.
          
           4.
           
             pag.
          
           502.
           
           Our
           Church
           alwayes
           was
           ,
           but
           you
           say
           it
           was
           not
           visible
           ,
           doth
           that
           prove
           that
           it
           was
           not
           ?
           No
           ,
           for
           it
           lay
           in
           a
           solitary
           concealment
           To
           this
           direct
           sence
           all
           the
           answers
           were
           that
           ever
           I
           could
           meet
           with
           ,
           to
           this
           objection
           ,
           I
           repeat
           no
           more
           ;
           those
           places
           being
           so
           positive
           to
           our
           point
           ,
           this
           confession
           of
           Invisibility
           in
           our
           Church
           for
           so
           many
           ages
           did
           much
           perplex
           me
           ,
           it
           seemed
           even
           to
           offend
           naturall
           Reason
           ,
           such
           a
           derogation
           from
           Gods
           power
           or
           providence
           ,
           as
           the
           sufferance
           of
           so
           great
           an
           ecclipse
           of
           the
           light
           of
           this
           true
           Church
           ,
           and
           such
           a
           Church
           as
           this
           is
           describ'd
           to
           be
           ,
           seeming
           to
           mee
           repugnant
           to
           the
           mayne
           reason
           why
           God
           hath
           a
           Church
           upon
           earth
           ,
           to
           be
           a
           conserver
           of
           the
           doctrine
           of
           Christ
           ,
           and
           his
           
           precepts
           ,
           and
           to
           convey
           it
           from
           age
           to
           age
           ,
           untill
           the
           end
           of
           the
           World
           :
           therefore
           I
           applyed
           my
           study
           to
           peruse
           such
           Arguments
           as
           the
           Catholikes
           brought
           for
           the
           proof
           of
           the
           necessity
           of
           a
           continuall
           visibility
           of
           the
           true
           Church
           down
           from
           the
           Apostles
           time
           in
           all
           ages
           ,
           and
           appearance
           of
           Doctors
           teaching
           and
           administring
           the
           Sacraments
           ;
           in
           proof
           of
           this
           I
           found
           they
           brought
           many
           provisoes
           of
           Scripture
           ,
           but
           this
           Text
           most
           litterall
           of
           the
           fourth
           of
           the
           
             Ephesians
             :
          
           Christ
           hath
           placed
           in
           his
           Church
           Pastors
           and
           Doctors
           to
           the
           consummation
           of
           the
           Saints
           ,
           till
           we
           meet
           in
           the
           unitie
           of
           the
           faith
           :
           and
           next
           the
           discourse
           upon
           which
           they
           inferre
           this
           necessary
           visible
           succession
           of
           the
           Church
           ,
           seem'd
           to
           me
           to
           be
           a
           most
           rationall
           and
           convincing
           one
           ,
           which
           is
           to
           this
           effect
           .
           Naturall
           reason
           not
           being
           able
           to
           proportion
           to
           a
           man
           a
           course
           that
           might
           certainly
           bring
           him
           to
           a
           state
           of
           supernaturall
           happinesse
           ,
           and
           that
           such
           a
           course
           being
           necessary
           to
           mankind
           ,
           which
           otherwise
           would
           totally
           faile
           of
           the
           end
           it
           was
           created
           for
           ,
           there
           remayned
           no
           other
           way
           ,
           but
           that
           it
           must
           be
           proposed
           unto
           us
           by
           one
           whose
           authoritie
           wee
           could
           not
           doubt
           of
           ,
           and
           that
           in
           so
           plain
           a
           manner
           ,
           as
           even
           the
           simplest
           might
           be
           capable
           of
           it
           as
           well
           as
           the
           Learned
           .
           This
           work
           was
           performed
           by
           our
           Saviour
           ,
           from
           whose
           mouth
           all
           our
           faith
           is
           originally
           derived
           .
           But
           this
           succeeding
           age
           not
           being
           able
           to
           receive
           it
           immediate
           from
           thence
           ,
           it
           was
           necessarie
           it
           should
           be
           conveyed
           unto
           them
           that
           lived
           in
           it
           by
           those
           that
           did
           receive
           it
           from
           Christs
           own
           mouth
           ,
           and
           so
           from
           age
           to
           age
           untill
           the
           end
           of
           the
           World
           ;
           and
           in
           what
           age
           soever
           this
           thread
           of
           doctrine
           should
           be
           broken
           ,
           it
           must
           needs
           be
           acknowledged
           ,
           for
           the
           reason
           above
           mentioned
           ,
           that
           the
           light
           which
           should
           convey
           mankind
           through
           the
           darknesse
           of
           this
           world
           was
           extinguisht
           ,
           and
           wee
           left
           without
           a
           guide
           to
           inevitable
           ruine
           ,
           
           which
           cannot
           stand
           with
           Gods
           providence
           and
           goodnesse
           ;
           which
           Saint
           
             Augustine
          
           affirmes
           for
           his
           opinion
           directly
           in
           his
           Booke
           
             de
             vtil
             .
             cred.
             cap.
          
           16.
           saying
           if
           divine
           providence
           does
           preside
           over
           our
           humane
           affairs
           ,
           it
           is
           not
           to
           be
           doubted
           but
           that
           there
           is
           some
           authority
           constituted
           by
           the
           same
           God
           upon
           which
           going
           as
           upon
           certain
           steps
           we
           are
           carried
           to
           God
           ;
           Nor
           can
           it
           bee
           said
           hee
           meant
           the
           Scripture
           onely
           by
           these
           steps
           ,
           since
           experience
           shewes
           us
           by
           the
           continuall
           altercation
           about
           the
           right
           sense
           of
           severall
           of
           the
           most
           important
           places
           of
           it
           ,
           that
           what
           is
           contained
           there
           cannot
           be
           a
           competent
           rule
           to
           mankind
           ,
           which
           consisteth
           more
           of
           simple
           then
           learned
           men
           ;
           and
           besides
           the
           Scripture
           must
           have
           supposed
           to
           have
           beene
           kept
           in
           some
           hands
           whose
           authority
           must
           beget
           our
           acceptance
           of
           them
           ;
           which
           being
           no
           other
           then
           the
           Church
           of
           all
           ages
           ,
           we
           have
           no
           more
           reason
           to
           beleeve
           that
           it
           hath
           preserved
           the
           Scripture
           free
           from
           all
           corruption
           then
           that
           it
           hath
           maintained
           it selfe
           in
           a
           continua●●
           〈…〉
           isibility
           which
           Saint
           
             Augustine
          
           concludeth
           to
           be
           a
           marke
           of
           the
           true
           Church
           in
           these
           words
           in
           his
           booke
           
             contra
             Cecill
             .
          
           104.
           
           The
           true
           Church
           hath
           this
           certain
           signe
           that
           it
           cannot
           bee
           hid
           ,
           therefore
           it
           must
           bee
           knowne
           to
           all
           Nations
           ,
           but
           that
           part
           of
           the
           Protestant
           
             Donatist
          
           is
           unknown
           to
           many
           ,
           therefore
           cannot
           bee
           the
           true
           ;
           No
           inference
           can
           be
           stronger
           then
           from
           hence
           that
           the
           concealment
           of
           a
           Church
           disproves
           the
           truth
           of
           it
           ;
           Lastly
           ,
           not
           to
           insist
           upon
           the
           allegation
           of
           the
           sense
           of
           all
           the
           Fathers
           of
           the
           Church
           in
           severall
           ages
           ,
           which
           seemed
           to
           mee
           most
           cleere
           ;
           that
           which
           in
           this
           cause
           weighed
           much
           with
           mee
           was
           the
           Confession
           and
           Testimony
           of
           the
           approved
           Doctors
           themselves
           of
           the
           Protestant
           Church
           ,
           as
           
             Hooker
          
           in
           his
           booke
           of
           
             Eccles.
             
             Pol.
             pag.
          
           126.
           
           
             God
             always
             had
             and
             must
             have
             some
             visible
             Church
             upon
             earth
             .
          
           And
           Doctor
           
             Field
          
           the
           first
           of
           
             Eccle.
             cap.
          
           10.
           
           It
           cannot
           bee
           but
           those
           that
           are
           the
           true
           Church
           must
           be
           knowne
           by
           the
           Profession
           ,
           
           and
           further
           the
           same
           Doctor
           saies
           how
           should
           the
           Church
           bee
           in
           the
           World
           ,
           and
           no body
           professe
           openly
           the
           saving
           truth
           of
           God
           ?
           And
           Doctor
           
             White
          
           in
           his
           defence
           of
           the
           way
           ,
           
             cap.
          
           4.
           
             pag.
          
           790.
           
           The
           providence
           of
           God
           hath
           left
           monuments
           and
           stories
           for
           the
           confirmation
           of
           our
           Faith
           ,
           and
           I
           confesse
           truly
           that
           our
           Religion
           is
           false
           ,
           if
           a
           continuall
           descent
           of
           it
           cannot
           be
           demonstrated
           by
           these
           monuments
           downe
           from
           Christs
           time
           ;
           this
           appeareth
           unto
           mee
           a
           direct
           submission
           of
           themselves
           to
           produce
           those
           apparent
           testimonies
           of
           the
           publique
           profession
           of
           their
           faith
           ,
           as
           the
           Catholikes
           demand
           ,
           but
           this
           I
           could
           never
           read
           ,
           nor
           know
           of
           any
           that
           performed
           ;
           For
           D.
           
             White
          
           himself
           for
           want
           of
           proof
           of
           this
           ,
           is
           fain
           to
           say
           in
           another
           place
           in
           his
           way
           to
           the
           Church
           
             p.
          
           520.
           
           The
           Doctors
           of
           our
           faith
           have
           had
           a
           cōtinual
           succession
           though
           not
           visible
           to
           the
           world
           ,
           so
           that
           he
           flies
           from
           his
           undertaking
           of
           a
           conspicuous
           demonstration
           of
           the
           monuments
           of
           his
           faith
           to
           an
           invisible
           subterfuge
           ,
           or
           a
           beleefe
           without
           appearance
           :
           for
           hee
           saith
           in
           the
           same
           Book
           in
           an
           other
           place
           
             pag.
          
           4.
           
           All
           the
           externall
           government
           of
           the
           Church
           may
           faile
           so
           as
           a
           locall
           and
           personall
           succession
           of
           Pastors
           may
           be
           interrupted
           ,
           and
           
             pag.
          
           40●
           .
           We
           doe
           not
           contest
           for
           an
           externall
           succession
           ,
           it
           suffiseth
           ●hat
           they
           succeed
           in
           the
           Doctrine
           of
           the
           Apostles
           ,
           and
           faithfull
           who
           in
           all
           ages
           did
           embrace
           the
           same
           truth
           ;
           so
           as
           here
           hee
           removeth
           absolutely
           all
           externall
           proofes
           of
           succession
           which
           before
           hee
           consented
           to
           be
           guided
           by
           ;
           I
           cannot
           say
           I
           have
           verbally
           cited
           these
           Authors
           ,
           because
           I
           have
           translated
           these
           places
           ,
           though
           the
           Originall
           be
           in
           English
           ,
           yet
           I
           am
           sure
           their
           sense
           is
           no
           way
           injured
           ,
           and
           I
           have
           chosen
           to
           alleadge
           Doctor
           
             Whites
          
           authority
           ,
           because
           he
           is
           an
           Orthodox
           professor
           of
           the
           Protestant
           Church
           ;
           the
           reflection
           of
           the
           state
           of
           this
           question
           wherein
           I
           found
           the
           Protestants
           defend
           themselves
           onely
           by
           flying
           out
           of
           sight
           ,
           by
           confessing
           a
           long
           invisibility
           in
           their
           Church
           in
           apparence
           of
           Pastors
           and
           Doctors
           ,
           left
           mee
           much
           loosened
           from
           the
           fastnesse
           
           of
           my
           professed
           Religion
           ,
           but
           had
           not
           yet
           transported
           me
           to
           the
           Catholike
           Church
           ;
           for
           I
           had
           an
           opinion
           that
           our
           Divines
           might
           yet
           fill
           up
           this
           vacuitie
           with
           some
           more
           substantiall
           matter
           then
           I
           could
           meet
           with
           ,
           so
           I
           came
           back
           into
           
             England
             ,
          
           with
           a
           purpose
           of
           seeking
           nothing
           so
           intentively
           as
           this
           satisfaction
           ,
           and
           to
           this
           purpose
           ,
           I
           did
           covertly
           (
           under
           another
           mans
           name
           )
           send
           this
           my
           scruple
           to
           one
           in
           whose
           learning
           &
           sufficiencie
           I
           had
           much
           affiance
           ,
           in
           these
           termes
           ,
           Whether
           there
           was
           no
           visible
           succession
           to
           be
           proved
           in
           the
           Protestant
           Church
           since
           the
           Apostles
           time
           downe
           to
           
             Luther
             ,
          
           and
           what
           was
           to
           be
           answered
           to
           that
           objection
           ?
           Besides
           the
           confession
           of
           invisibilitie
           for
           so
           many
           ages
           ;
           to
           this
           I
           could
           get
           no
           other
           answer
           ,
           but
           that
           the
           point
           had
           been
           largely
           ,
           and
           learnedly
           handled
           by
           Doctor
           
             White
             ,
          
           and
           many
           others
           of
           our
           Church
           :
           upon
           this
           I
           resolved
           to
           informe
           my selfe
           in
           some
           other
           points
           which
           seemed
           to
           mee
           unwarrantable
           and
           superstitious
           in
           the
           Ceremónies
           of
           the
           Church
           of
           
             Rome
             ,
          
           since
           I
           had
           such
           an
           inducement
           ,
           &
           so
           little
           satisfaction
           in
           a
           point
           which
           seemed
           to
           mee
           so
           essentiall
           ,
           and
           in
           all
           these
           scruples
           I
           found
           mine
           owne
           mistake
           in
           the
           belief
           of
           the
           Tenets
           of
           the
           
             Roman
          
           Church
           gave
           me
           the
           onely
           occasion
           of
           scandall
           ,
           not
           the
           practice
           of
           their
           doctrine
           ,
           and
           to
           confirme
           mee
           in
           the
           satisfaction
           of
           all
           them
           ,
           I
           found
           the
           practice
           and
           authority
           of
           most
           of
           the
           ancient
           Fathers
           ,
           and
           in
           the
           Protestant
           Refutation
           of
           these
           Doctrines
           ,
           the
           Recusation
           of
           their
           Authorities
           ,
           as
           men
           that
           might
           erre
           ,
           so
           that
           the
           question
           seemed
           then
           to
           me
           whether
           I
           would
           rather
           hazard
           the
           erring
           with
           them
           ,
           then
           with
           the
           later
           Reformers
           which
           consequently
           might
           erre
           also
           in
           dissenting
           from
           them
           ;
           since
           then
           my
           resolution
           of
           reconciling
           my selfe
           to
           the
           Roman
           Church
           is
           not
           lyable
           to
           any
           suspition
           of
           too
           forward
           or
           precipitate
           resignation
           of
           my selfe
           ,
           my
           judgment
           may
           perchance
           be
           censured
           of
           seducement
           ,
           my
           affection
           cannot
           bee
           of
           corruption
           .
        
         
         
           Upon
           these
           Reasons
           I
           did
           soone
           after
           my
           returne
           last
           into
           
             England
             ,
          
           reconcile
           my selfe
           to
           the
           
             Roman
          
           Catholike
           Church
           ,
           in
           the
           belief
           and
           convincement
           of
           it
           to
           be
           the
           true
           ,
           ancient
           ,
           and
           Apostolicall
           Church
           ,
           by
           her
           externall
           marks
           ,
           and
           her
           internall
           objects
           of
           faith
           and
           doctrine
           ,
           and
           in
           her
           I
           resolve
           to
           live
           and
           die
           ,
           as
           the
           best
           way
           to
           salvation
           ;
           when
           I
           was
           in
           
             England
             ,
          
           I
           did
           not
           studie
           dissimulation
           so
           dexterously
           as
           if
           my
           fortune
           had
           read
           it
           to
           me
           ,
           nor
           doe
           I
           now
           professe
           it
           so
           desperatly
           as
           if
           it
           were
           my
           fortunes
           Legacie
           ,
           for
           I
           doe
           not
           believe
           it
           so
           dangerous
           ,
           but
           it
           may
           recover
           ,
           for
           I
           know
           the
           Kings
           wisdome
           is
           rightly
           informed
           that
           the
           Catholike
           Faith
           doth
           not
           tend
           to
           the
           alienation
           of
           the
           subject
           ,
           it
           rather
           super-infuseth
           a
           reverence
           and
           obedience
           to
           Monarchie
           ,
           and
           strengtheneth
           the
           bands
           of
           our
           obedience
           to
           our
           naturall
           Prince
           ,
           and
           his
           grace
           and
           goodnesse
           shall
           never
           finde
           any
           other
           occasion
           of
           diversion
           of
           them
           ,
           from
           the
           naturall
           and
           usuall
           exercise
           of
           themselves
           upon
           those
           that
           have
           had
           the
           honour
           to
           have
           been
           bred
           with
           approbation
           of
           fidelitie
           in
           his
           service
           ,
           nor
           can
           I
           feare
           that
           your
           Lordship
           should
           apprehend
           any
           change
           in
           my
           duty
           ,
           even
           your
           displeasure
           (
           which
           I
           may
           apprehend
           upon
           this
           mis-interpreted
           occasion
           )
           shall
           never
           give
           me
           any
           of
           the
           least
           recession
           from
           my
           duty
           ,
           in
           which
           profession
           I
           humbly
           aske
           your
           blessing
           as
        
         
           
             Your
             Lordships
             obedient
             Sonne
             ,
             W.
             Mountagu
             .
          
        
      
       
       
         
           The
           Answer
           .
        
         
           
             Walter
             ,
          
        
         
           YOur
           Letter
           sent
           from
           
             Paris
          
           tels
           mee
           how
           much
           debate
           you
           had
           with
           your selfe
           ,
           whether
           with
           silence
           to
           suspend
           my
           beliefe
           ,
           or
           by
           a
           cleere
           profession
           to
           assure
           mee
           what
           you
           feared
           to
           present
           mee
           ;
           but
           what
           was
           most
           satisfactory
           to
           the
           first
           dutie
           to
           GOD
           ,
           that
           you
           thought
           most
           justifiable
           to
           your
           derivative
           dutie
           to
           nature
           ,
           therefore
           resolved
           to
           give
           me
           an
           ingenuous
           accompt
           of
           the
           declaration
           you
           had
           made
           then
           :
           had
           you
           asked
           my
           counsell
           ,
           before
           you
           signified
           the
           resolution
           ,
           it
           would
           have
           shewed
           more
           dutie
           in
           you
           ,
           and
           bred
           lesse
           discontent
           in
           me
           ;
           but
           think
           how
           welcome
           that
           Letter
           could
           bee
           ,
           that
           at
           once
           tels
           of
           the
           intention
           ,
           and
           signifies
           the
           resolution
           .
        
         
           Say
           you
           could
           not
           expect
           from
           me
           so
           much
           Theologicall
           Learning
           as
           to
           satisfie
           your
           scruples
           ,
           yet
           it
           had
           beene
           a
           fair
           addresse
           ,
           of
           a
           sonne
           to
           a
           Father
           in
           a
           matter
           of
           that
           importance
           ;
           nor
           are
           you
           ignorant
           of
           my
           care
           ,
           I
           dare
           say
           knowledge
           studied
           ,
           for
           the
           settlement
           of
           my
           children
           in
           that
           true
           faith
           which
           their
           father
           professed
           ,
           and
           the
           Church
           of
           
             England
          
           hath
           established
           :
           Therefore
           it
           would
           have
           beene
           your
           greater
           justification
           ,
           and
           my
           lesse
           sorrow
           ,
           so
           to
           have
           lost
           your selfe
           with
           love
           ,
           that
           I
           could
           not
           have
           held
           you
           in
           with
           religious
           reason
           .
           Happily
           you
           will
           returne
           upon
           me
           the
           misconstruction
           of
           that
           speech
           ,
           
             If
             any
             man
             come
             to
             mee
             ,
             and
             hate
             not
             his
             father
             ,
             he
             cannot
             be
             my
             Disciple
             .
          
           But
           I
           must
           tell
           you
           that
           by
           this
           post-dated
           
           duty
           you
           have
           trespassed
           upon
           loves
           duty
           ,
           for
           you
           have
           robbed
           mee
           of
           the
           meanes
           of
           helping
           you
           with
           mine
           advise
           ;
           which
           as
           it
           is
           the
           best
           part
           of
           a
           fathers
           portion
           to
           give
           ,
           so
           it
           is
           not
           the
           least
           testimonie
           of
           filiall
           duty
           to
           aske
           .
        
         
           Now
           to
           lay
           such
           a
           blemish
           upon
           all
           the
           cares
           of
           your
           former
           education
           ,
           as
           not
           to
           think
           mee
           worthy
           to
           see
           the
           ayme
           ,
           untill
           you
           have
           set
           up
           your
           rest
           ,
           is
           such
           a
           neglect
           that
           without
           over-much
           fatherly
           candor
           cannot
           be
           forced
           into
           an
           excusable
           interpretation
           :
           It
           makes
           me
           suspect
           that
           some
           politike
           respects
           or
           private
           seducements
           ,
           if
           not
           discontentments
           ,
           have
           wrought
           upon
           you
           .
        
         
           Policie
           and
           Religion
           as
           they
           do
           well
           together
           ,
           so
           doe
           they
           as
           ill
           asunder
           ,
           the
           one
           being
           too
           cunning
           to
           be
           good
           ;
           the
           other
           being
           too
           simple
           to
           be
           safe
           :
           But
           upon
           policie
           to
           change
           Religion
           ,
           there
           is
           no
           warrant
           for
           that
           ,
           lesse
           for
           discontentments
           ,
           or
           upon
           seducements
           .
        
         
           When
           I
           looke
           upon
           your
           Letter
           ,
           which
           you
           termed
           an
           ingenuous
           account
           of
           your self
           ,
           it
           seemes
           to
           mee
           not
           an
           account
           of
           your
           new
           professed
           Religion
           ,
           but
           rather
           an
           exprobration
           of
           mine
           ,
           and
           so
           of
           ours
           of
           the
           Church
           of
           
             England
             .
          
        
         
           Had
           I
           knowne
           the
           doubts
           before
           ,
           I
           might
           have
           beene
           an
           adviser
           ,
           but
           objecting
           them
           after
           you
           had
           resolved
           ,
           you
           call
           mee
           up
           now
           to
           be
           a
           Disputer
           :
           although
           I
           be
           of
           his
           opinion
           ,
           who
           thought
           that
           truth
           did
           oftentimes
           suffer
           by
           too
           much
           altercation
           ,
           it
           being
           a
           common
           errour
           amongst
           great
           Clerks
           ,
           to
           contend
           more
           for
           victory
           ,
           than
           for
           veritie
           :
           yet
           since
           you
           have
           so
           punctually
           led
           me
           into
           it
           ,
           though
           it
           be
           contrary
           to
           my
           first
           resolution
           of
           silence
           (
           else
           you
           had
           heard
           from
           me
           sooner
           )
           and
           finding
           that
           the
           Letter
           you
           sent
           mee
           had
           a
           farther
           reach
           then
           to
           give
           me
           satisfaction
           ,
           (
           else
           the
           copies
           of
           it
           would
           have
           not
           beene
           divulged
           before
           I
           came
           to
           receive
           it
           ,
           and
           uses
           made
           of
           it
           to
           my
           discomfort
           )
           I
           therefore
           thought
           my selfe
           tied
           to
           give
           you
           an
           answer
           ,
           lest
           those
           of
           your
           new
           profession
           should
           think
           
           (
           as
           some
           of
           them
           say
           )
           that
           a
           new
           lapsorian
           ,
           was
           more
           able
           by
           a
           few
           days
           discipline
           to
           oppose
           our
           Religion
           ,
           then
           an
           old
           Father
           and
           long
           professor
           was
           able
           to
           defend
           it
           .
        
         
           Having
           this
           tie
           upon
           me
           ,
           I
           hope
           ,
           on
           the
           one
           side
           ,
           our
           learned
           Divines
           will
           pardon
           mee
           ,
           if
           for
           my
           sonnes
           sake
           I
           dip
           my
           pen
           in
           their
           inke
           ;
           and
           you
           on
           the
           other
           side
           will
           lay
           mine
           arguments
           more
           to
           heart
           ,
           as
           proceeding
           from
           the
           bowels
           of
           a
           Father
           ,
           then
           if
           they
           had
           been
           framed
           by
           the
           brains
           of
           a
           learned
           Divine
           .
        
         
           In
           this
           case
           also
           I
           have
           some
           advantage
           of
           other
           men
           ,
           who
           though
           they
           might
           write
           more
           learnedly
           ,
           yet
           cannot
           doe
           it
           so
           feelingly
           :
           for
           mine
           interest
           is
           not
           only
           in
           the
           cause
           ,
           but
           in
           the
           person
           ,
           for
           whom
           I
           might
           give
           an
           account
           ,
           if
           there
           be
           fayling
           in
           my
           part
           to
           reduce
           him
           to
           truth
           :
           A
           person
           whose
           Letter
           I
           take
           into
           mine
           hands
           ,
           as
           he
           did
           the
           Urne
           of
           his
           sonnes
           ashes
           to
           shed
           over
           it
           
             veras
             lachrymas
             ,
          
           as
           arguments
           of
           the
           truth
           ,
           both
           which
           I
           hope
           shall
           perswade
           forceably
           ,
           if
           there
           be
           any
           of
           that
           bloud
           left
           in
           you
           that
           I
           gave
           you
           ,
           It
           is
           true
           ,
           affection
           is
           not
           to
           rule
           Religion
           :
           yet
           in
           this
           way
           nature
           may
           co-operate
           with
           grace
           .
        
         
           Your
           Letter
           sayes
           truly
           ,
           the
           greatest
           part
           of
           your
           life
           capable
           of
           distinctions
           of
           Religions
           hath
           beene
           in
           places
           ,
           and
           conversant
           with
           persons
           opposite
           to
           the
           faith
           I
           bred
           you
           in
           ,
           therefore
           you
           say
           ,
           it
           had
           beene
           strange
           if
           naturall
           curiositie
           without
           any
           spirituall
           provocation
           had
           not
           invited
           you
           with
           desire
           of
           looking
           upon
           the
           foundation
           I
           trode
           on
           ,
           rather
           then
           holding
           fast
           blind-fold
           by
           your
           education
           to
           be
           alwayes
           carried
           away
           after
           it
           .
        
         
           In
           your
           education
           ,
           God
           knows
           my
           first
           care
           was
           to
           season
           you
           with
           true
           Religion
           ,
           wherein
           from
           a
           boy
           you
           attained
           unto
           such
           knowledge
           as
           
             Spaine
          
           will
           witnesse
           ,
           (
           when
           you
           were
           but
           a
           youth
           )
           how
           strong
           a
           champion
           you
           were
           for
           the
           Protestant
           profession
           .
           The
           Court
           of
           
             France
             ,
          
           nor
           yet
           all
           the
           Princes
           
           Courts
           of
           Christendome
           (
           most
           of
           which
           you
           have
           visited
           )
           could
           never
           till
           now
           taint
           your
           faith
           ,
           but
           always
           rendred
           you
           sound
           in
           the
           Religion
           which
           you
           carried
           with
           you
           hence
           .
        
         
           But
           now
           
             Italy
          
           hath
           turned
           you
           ,
           because
           
             England
          
           hath
           discontented
           you
           .
        
         
           In
           the
           last
           journey
           into
           
             Italy
             ,
          
           as
           you
           said
           ,
           you
           applyed
           all
           your
           leisure
           to
           confirme
           your
           judgement
           in
           the
           doctrine
           introduced
           by
           your
           education
           ,
           which
           if
           you
           had
           done
           seriously
           ,
           you
           could
           not
           so
           soon
           ,
           nor
           would
           not
           at
           all
           ,
           upon
           so
           weake
           motives
           ,
           have
           let
           goe
           your
           hold
           ;
           for
           of
           all
           other
           their
           tenents
           the
           two
           you
           mentioned
           are
           the
           weakest
           ,
           and
           have
           received
           cleerest
           satisfaction
           :
           whereby
           it
           appeares
           ,
           that
           you
           were
           resolved
           to
           give
           up
           the
           cause
           ,
           before
           you
           came
           at
           it
           ;
           and
           what
           you
           would
           not
           hold
           blind-fold
           ,
           to
           give
           up
           blind-fold
           which
           is
           worst
           .
        
         
           Could
           that
           be
           a
           motive
           to
           your
           desertion
           of
           our
           Church
           ,
           as
           perswaded
           that
           
             Luther
          
           was
           the
           Father
           of
           our
           faith
           ?
           your selfe
           cannot
           forget
           ,
           but
           how
           that
           wee
           build
           our
           faith
           upon
           Christ
           ,
           not
           upon
           
             Luther
             ,
          
           upon
           the
           doctrine
           of
           the
           Scriptures
           ,
           not
           upon
           the
           inventions
           of
           men
           ;
           Could
           it
           be
           proved
           against
           us
           that
           
             Luther
          
           or
           any
           other
           man
           how
           gray-headed
           soever
           were
           the
           inventor
           of
           our
           faith
           ,
           there
           needed
           no
           more
           to
           be
           said
           ,
           we
           would
           contend
           no
           longer
           .
        
         
           But
           wee
           renounce
           all
           men
           alike
           as
           inventors
           of
           Religion
           ,
           or
           any
           part
           of
           it
           ,
           but
           hold
           only
           the
           Apostolicall
           doctrine
           ,
           of
           the
           ancient
           Primitive
           and
           Catholike
           Church
           ,
           &
           presume
           not
           to
           coine
           any
           new
           Creed
           .
        
         
           Yet
           we
           are
           not
           unwilling
           to
           grant
           that
           
             Luther
          
           was
           one
           ,
           but
           not
           the
           first
           of
           many
           that
           restored
           the
           purity
           of
           the
           doctrine
           ,
           which
           had
           been
           long
           smothered
           by
           the
           Papacie
           ;
           our
           faith
           if
           you
           take
           in
           the
           whole
           is
           no
           other
           but
           what
           is
           exiconized
           in
           the
           Apostles
           Creed
           ,
           included
           in
           the
           Scriptures
           :
           If
           you
           take
           it
           in
           a
           lower
           and
           straighter
           way
           ,
           for
           so
           much
           of
           it
           as
           is
           opposed
           
           to
           the
           corruption
           of
           popery
           ,
           you
           must
           remember
           that
           these
           points
           are
           neither
           the
           whole
           nor
           greatest
           points
           of
           faith
           ,
           there
           are
           not
           any
           points
           of
           our
           faith
           ,
           but
           we
           are
           able
           to
           shew
           they
           had
           mayntainers
           few
           or
           many
           in
           all
           ages
           since
           the
           Apostles
           time
           ;
           and
           every
           of
           these
           ages
           ,
           those
           substructures
           of
           Popery
           opposed
           ,
           some
           by
           one
           man
           ,
           some
           by
           an
           other
           .
        
         
           I
           wonder
           therefore
           to
           see
           you
           carried
           away
           with
           that
           common
           and
           triviall
           calumny
           ,
           that
           
             Luther
          
           was
           the
           inventor
           of
           our
           faith
           ;
           and
           why
           say
           you
           that
           for
           the
           intervall
           of
           800
           yeers
           before
           there
           was
           no
           apparent
           profession
           of
           faith
           different
           from
           
             Rome
             ?
          
           and
           this
           you
           collect
           by
           historicall
           search
           of
           all
           the
           stories
           and
           Records
           Ecclesiasticall
           and
           Civill
           .
        
         
           It
           seems
           
             Italy
          
           affords
           you
           no
           coppies
           of
           our
           Writers
           ,
           else
           might
           you
           see
           in
           them
           a
           list
           which
           they
           carry
           out
           through
           all
           these
           spaces
           ,
           and
           shew
           you
           ,
           that
           most
           of
           our
           tenents
           have
           had
           the
           suffrage
           of
           the
           learn'dst
           of
           
             Romes
          
           side
           ,
           and
           how
           many
           men
           in
           the
           decursion
           of
           time
           ,
           from
           the
           ancientest
           of
           Fathers
           ,
           have
           declared
           themselves
           ,
           and
           some
           of
           them
           apparently
           ,
           yee
           earnestly
           contended
           for
           the
           truth
           of
           our
           doctrine
           .
        
         
           And
           where
           you
           object
           that
           
             Waldo
             ,
             Wickliff
             ,
          
           &
           
             Hus
             ,
          
           had
           scarce
           any
           relation
           to
           the
           professed
           Protestancie
           ,
           if
           you
           meane
           because
           we
           disclaim
           those
           horrid
           opiniōs
           wch
           are
           put
           upon
           them
           (
           how
           true
           God
           knows
           )
           therein
           you
           say
           truly
           ,
           Neither
           they
           to
           us
           ,
           nor
           we
           to
           them
           have
           any
           relation
           :
           but
           in
           the
           main
           points
           of
           doctrine
           touching
           faith
           and
           opposition
           of
           the
           superstitions
           and
           usurpation
           of
           the
           papacie
           ,
           wee
           have
           a
           joynt
           consent
           of
           all
           the
           best
           Writers
           ,
           Historians
           ,
           and
           Divines
           ,
           of
           both
           sides
           ,
           that
           they
           and
           we
           consent
           in
           one
           .
        
         
           It
           is
           strange
           therefore
           to
           say
           ,
           that
           these
           and
           wee
           had
           no
           relation
           to
           the
           Protestant
           profession
           ,
           who
           for
           substance
           of
           Religion
           held
           as
           we
           doe
           ,
           their
           errours
           only
           we
           own
           not
           :
           and
           the
           consent
           of
           times
           doe
           all
           agree
           ,
           that
           the
           
             Waldenses
          
           flew
           out
           against
           their
           corruptions
           400
           yeeres
           before
           
             Luther
          
           was
           borne
           ,
           
           nay
           ,
           saith
           
             Renerus
             ,
             Quidam
             dicunt
             quòd
             secta
             illa
             duraverie
             à
             tempore
          
           Silvestri
           ,
           
             alii
             quod
             à
             tempore
             Apostolorum
             ,
          
           deriving
           their
           fundamentall
           doctrine
           from
           the
           time
           of
           the
           Apostles
           :
           nor
           were
           they
           few
           ,
           
             sed
             multiplicati
             super
             arenas
             maris
             ;
          
           nor
           plebeians
           only
           ,
           
             sed
             principum
             favore
             armati
             ,
          
           As
           the
           Kings
           of
           
             Arragon
             ,
          
           the
           Earles
           of
           
             Tholouse
             ,
          
           and
           many
           moe
           .
           So
           that
           ,
           there
           are
           witnesses
           more
           then
           sufficient
           ,
           that
           there
           were
           many
           who
           opposed
           themselvs
           to
           the
           Papacie
           in
           the
           Protestants
           tenents
           long
           before
           
             Luther
             .
          
           This
           is
           the
           first
           supposition
           failing
           ,
           I
           will
           now
           let
           you
           see
           the
           mistakes
           in
           the
           subsequent
           passages
           ,
           and
           open
           to
           you
           my self
           ,
           hoping
           yet
           that
           I
           may
           draw
           you
           againe
           to
           me
           .
        
         
           You
           as
           you
           conceive
           having
           shewed
           a
           defect
           of
           visibilitie
           in
           our
           Church
           till
           
             Luthers
          
           time
           ,
           labour
           to
           prove
           a
           necessity
           of
           visibilitie
           to
           every
           true
           Church
           :
           if
           it
           were
           granted
           that
           it
           were
           simply
           necessary
           to
           the
           essentiating
           of
           a
           Church
           to
           be
           able
           to
           demonstrate
           in
           all
           times
           ,
           both
           the
           visible
           number
           of
           professors
           of
           the
           truth
           ,
           as
           also
           a
           visible
           succession
           of
           Pastors
           ,
           we
           are
           able
           to
           demonstrate
           both
           these
           for
           our
           defence
           to
           bee
           as
           unquestionable
           in
           our
           Church
           as
           in
           the
           Church
           of
           
             Rome
             :
          
           they
           that
           are
           otherwise
           minded
           will
           account
           this
           a
           bold
           undertaking
           ,
           but
           it
           is
           no
           hard
           matter
           to
           do
           :
           Wherefore
           the
           vanitie
           of
           that
           question
           ,
           to
           aske
           ,
           where
           our
           Church
           was
           before
           
             Luther
             ,
          
           becomes
           not
           any
           man
           that
           hath
           read
           any
           thing
           of
           our
           Church
           monuments
           .
        
         
           But
           you
           would
           seeme
           to
           mee
           to
           prove
           it
           two
           wayes
           ;
           first
           ,
           by
           the
           testimonie
           of
           our
           owne
           Divines
           ;
           Secondly
           ,
           by
           argument
           .
        
         
           By
           testimonies
           of
           our
           Divines
           you
           would
           have
           Doctor
           
             Field
             ,
          
           Doctor
           
             White
             ,
          
           and
           Master
           
             Hookes
             ,
          
           to
           confesse
           needfulnesse
           of
           visibilitie
           :
           and
           yet
           for
           their
           own
           Church
           fly
           to
           latencie
           .
        
         
           For
           the
           second
           you
           instance
           Doctor
           
             Whitaker
             ,
          
           and
           Doctor
           
             White
             ,
          
           one
           of
           them
           ,
           to
           confesse
           our
           Church
           for
           many
           ages
           to
           
           have
           beene
           in
           a
           secret
           solitude
           ;
           and
           the
           other
           to
           let
           goe
           his
           defence
           of
           visible
           succession
           by
           flying
           to
           an
           invisible
           subterfuge
           of
           non-apparency
           :
           if
           you
           had
           better
           perused
           the
           truth
           of
           those
           Writers
           ,
           they
           would
           have
           given
           you
           full
           satisfaction
           ,
           but
           you
           mistake
           both
           the
           persons
           and
           the
           points
           .
        
         
           These
           made
           a
           demonstration
           of
           those
           3
           points
           :
           First
           ,
           that
           neither
           the
           Churches
           obscurity
           is
           repugnant
           to
           the
           visibilitie
           of
           it
           :
           Secondly
           ,
           nor
           the
           visibility
           of
           it
           such
           as
           excludes
           all
           latencie
           :
           Nor
           yet
           the
           latencie
           of
           Orthodox
           Christians
           in
           the
           swaying
           time
           of
           Popery
           ,
           such
           as
           had
           not
           requisite
           lineaments
           of
           an
           accomptable
           visibilitie
           .
        
         
           But
           you
           must
           know
           that
           visibilitie
           doth
           not
           alwayes
           carrie
           the
           same
           height
           ,
           but
           admits
           of
           degrees
           ,
           so
           that
           wee
           cannot
           say
           ,
           that
           that
           wants
           visibilitie
           which
           hath
           it
           in
           a
           lower
           degree
           .
           The
           Sun
           compared
           with
           it selfe
           is
           in
           a
           degree
           visible
           ,
           though
           in
           a
           mist
           ,
           yet
           not
           so
           cleerly
           visible
           as
           when
           it
           shines
           out
           :
           so
           it
           is
           with
           the
           state
           of
           the
           Church
           ,
           because
           her
           splendour
           is
           not
           
             in
             termino
             ,
          
           but
           such
           as
           receives
           degrees
           by
           augmentation
           or
           diminution
           ;
           like
           as
           the
           Sun
           is
           as
           truly
           visible
           under
           a
           cloud
           as
           in
           his
           brightnesse
           ,
           though
           not
           so
           cleerly
           visible
           ;
           though
           not
           to
           admit
           the
           Church
           to
           be
           visible
           ,
           except
           shee
           be
           glorious
           ,
           is
           an
           errour
           ;
           for
           there
           's
           a
           variation
           of
           the
           Churches
           visibilitie
           in
           respect
           of
           her
           object
           :
           the
           want
           of
           which
           consideration
           ,
           I
           believe
           is
           one
           cause
           why
           so
           many
           deceive
           themselves
           in
           this
           point
           .
           secondly
           ,
           there
           is
           another
           diversity
           ,
           which
           ariseth
           from
           the
           visible
           object
           ,
           some
           may
           see
           and
           will
           not
           ,
           there
           the
           fault
           is
           not
           in
           the
           object
           ,
           but
           in
           the
           beholders
           .
           Philosophers
           say
           ,
           
             Visibilia
             non
             sunt
             minus
             visibilia
             cum
             non
             videntur
             ,
             quam
             quando
             videntur
             ,
          
           The
           objects
           of
           sight
           remain
           still
           discernable
           ,
           when
           they
           are
           not
           discerned
           :
           so
           it
           is
           with
           the
           Church
           ,
           there
           are
           strictures
           of
           visibility
           discernable
           in
           her
           obscure
           condition
           ,
           but
           it
           is
           
             possibile
             non
             visum
             ,
          
           which
           fals
           out
           when
           men
           will
           not
           open
           their
           eyes
           ,
           or
           they
           shut
           them
           on
           purpose
           ,
           which
           hapned
           in
           the
           prevailing
           
           times
           of
           popery
           ,
           when
           this
           notwithstanding
           ,
           yet
           there
           were
           lights
           which
           appeared
           by
           the
           defence
           of
           the
           truth
           ,
           and
           the
           discovery
           of
           errour
           ,
           in
           every
           age
           of
           the
           intervall
           .
        
         
           But
           sure
           our
           men
           labour
           in
           vain
           to
           demonstrate
           that
           visibilitie
           ,
           whilst
           they
           of
           the
           Papacie
           are
           so
           dis-affected
           ,
           as
           not
           to
           acknowledge
           it
           upon
           any
           terms
           ,
           otherwise
           this
           controversie
           had
           long
           since
           been
           ended
           ,
           if
           they
           had
           been
           as
           well
           disposed
           to
           see
           ,
           as
           we
           ready
           to
           shew
           our
           visibility
           :
           in
           this
           question
           men
           are
           to
           consider
           that
           there
           is
           a
           double
           splendor
           of
           the
           Church
           ,
           which
           makes
           way
           for
           the
           visibilitie
           of
           it
           .
        
         
           The
           proper
           splendour
           of
           a
           Church
           consists
           in
           puritie
           of
           doctrine
           .
        
         
           The
           common
           splendour
           of
           a
           Church
           consists
           in
           the
           outward
           accommodations
           which
           appertain
           not
           to
           the
           being
           ,
           but
           the
           well
           being
           of
           the
           Church
           ,
           as
           temporall
           peace
           ,
           multitude
           of
           professors
           ,
           locall
           succession
           of
           Pastors
           ;
           yet
           persecution
           may
           interrupt
           this
           succession
           of
           Pastors
           ,
           it
           may
           cut
           off
           the
           multitude
           of
           professors
           ,
           heresie
           may
           so
           far
           prevail
           as
           to
           make
           the
           Orthodox
           Church
           pull
           in
           her
           head
           ,
           witnesse
           the
           time
           of
           
             Arianisme
             ,
          
           when
           few
           but
           godly
           
             Athanasius
             ,
          
           and
           some
           with
           him
           were
           faine
           to
           keepe
           in
           corners
           ,
           and
           of
           this
           our
           Divines
           are
           to
           be
           understood
           when
           they
           speake
           of
           our
           latencie
           ,
           that
           for
           this
           outward
           splendour
           it
           suffered
           a
           great
           obscuritie
           ,
           for
           divers
           hundred
           yeeres
           ,
           yet
           when
           it
           was
           at
           the
           lowest
           ,
           the
           doctrine
           was
           visible
           ,
           and
           some
           professors
           still
           in
           the
           eye
           of
           the
           World
           ,
           I
           would
           wish
           you
           well
           to
           consider
           the
           things
           which
           I
           shall
           tell
           you
           .
        
         
           The
           state
           of
           the
           Church
           is
           so
           ordered
           by
           our
           great
           Master
           Christ
           ,
           that
           she
           is
           to
           expect
           her
           times
           of
           obscurity
           ,
           as
           well
           as
           her
           times
           of
           splendor
           ,
           hee
           hath
           made
           her
           estate
           militant
           ,
           and
           appointed
           her
           to
           a
           passive
           condition
           ,
           as
           well
           as
           an
           active
           :
           designed
           her
           to
           vicissitudes
           of
           obscurity
           ,
           as
           well
           as
           luster
           ,
           and
           shews
           her
           no
           lesse
           glorious
           in
           her
           obscurity
           then
           in
           her
           triumph
           ,
           as
           
             Tertullian
          
           saith
           of
           vertue
           .
           
             
             
               Extruitur
               duritia
               :
               destruitur
               mollitia
               .
            
          
        
         
           2
           This
           visibilitie
           represented
           by
           an
           innumerous
           multitude
           ,
           locall
           Succession
           ,
           Secular
           estate
           ,
           these
           were
           not
           considered
           in
           the
           first
           times
           ,
           when
           the
           Church
           stood
           sound
           ,
           nor
           in
           the
           later
           times
           ,
           when
           she
           got
           some
           recovery
           ,
           only
           in
           the
           intermediate
           ,
           when
           she
           lay
           under
           the
           crosse
           ;
           and
           were
           these
           the
           
             probats
          
           of
           Faith
           ,
           it
           had
           bin
           ill
           with
           the
           
             Israelites
          
           Church
           in
           the
           time
           of
           
             Elias
             ,
          
           worse
           with
           the
           Apostolicall
           Church
           ,
           when
           the
           
             Scribes
          
           and
           
             Pharisies
          
           sate
           in
           
             Moses
          
           Chaire
           ,
           worst
           in
           the
           time
           of
           
             Arianisme
             ,
          
           and
           in
           times
           of
           Antichristianisme
           ,
           which
           shall
           come
           as
           most
           Writers
           say
           .
        
         
           3
           This
           glorious
           succession
           which
           
             Rome
          
           so
           much
           brags
           of
           is
           a
           deceitfull
           
             medium
          
           whereby
           to
           measure
           the
           truth
           of
           a
           Church
           ,
           because
           a
           Church
           may
           be
           a
           true
           Church
           without
           it
           :
           and
           be
           also
           a
           false
           Church
           with
           it
           .
        
         
           
             Non
             colligitur
             ibi
             necessariò
             esse
             Ecclesiam
             ubi
             est
             successio
             ,
          
           saith
           
             Bellarmine
             ,
          
           though
           
             Stapleton
          
           be
           of
           another
           minde
           :
           
             Alexandria
          
           challengeth
           succession
           ,
           as
           well
           as
           
             Rome
             ,
          
           the
           Church
           of
           
             Constantinople
          
           takes
           her
           pedigree
           from
           Saint
           
             Andrew
          
           the
           Apostle
           ,
           and
           brings
           it
           down
           to
           our
           times
           .
        
         
           A
           false
           Church
           may
           have
           succession
           ,
           and
           a
           true
           Church
           may
           want
           it
           ,
           otherwise
           you
           will
           grant
           that
           
             Rome
          
           is
           no
           true
           Church
           :
           the
           Church
           of
           
             Rome
          
           hath
           sometimes
           lyen
           empty
           ;
           sometimes
           it
           hath
           carried
           double
           ,
           and
           both
           of
           them
           have
           bin
           deposed
           ,
           these
           broken
           links
           marre
           the
           chaine
           of
           that
           succession
           .
           But
           because
           this
           rather
           concernes
           the
           persons
           not
           the
           thing
           ,
           It
           is
           otherwise
           to
           be
           cleerly
           shewed
           ,
           that
           it
           may
           be
           a
           true
           Church
           that
           hath
           not
           this
           uninterrupted
           succession
           :
           for
           else
           no
           Church
           at
           all
           could
           be
           true
           in
           her
           first
           plantation
           .
           For
           successions
           are
           by
           descent
           ,
           descents
           have
           no
           place
           in
           first
           originals
           ,
           whereas
           the
           orthodox
           faith
           doth
           the
           very
           first
           day
           put
           her
           in
           possession
           of
           Apostolical
           succession
           ,
           as
           
             Tertullian
          
           well
           
           saith
           ,
           That
           Churches
           wch
           have
           not
           their
           original
           descent
           from
           the
           Apostles
           are
           Apostolicall
           ,
           
             propter
             consanguinitatem
             doctrinae
             .
          
        
         
           The
           place
           which
           you
           cite
           out
           of
           the
           fourth
           to
           the
           
             Ephesians
          
           proves
           cleerly
           the
           necessity
           of
           orthodox
           Pastors
           ,
           not
           of
           locall
           Succession
           ,
           you
           may
           hereby
           see
           how
           in
           the
           informing
           of
           your selfe
           in
           this
           particular
           you
           are
           overtaken
           ;
           this
           thing
           also
           much
           troubles
           me
           ,
           that
           your
           Letters
           said
           ,
           that
           when
           you
           last
           came
           back
           out
           of
           
             Italy
             ,
          
           you
           sought
           nothing
           so
           attentively
           as
           satisfaction
           in
           these
           points
           of
           controversie
           ,
           especially
           that
           touching
           the
           visibilitie
           of
           our
           Church
           in
           all
           ages
           ,
           but
           could
           receive
           none
           .
        
         
           Could
           you
           never
           in
           all
           the
           while
           of
           your
           last
           being
           in
           
             England
          
           find
           the
           time
           to
           acquaint
           me
           with
           your
           desire
           ?
           doubtles
           ,
           I
           must
           say
           ,
           you
           did
           in
           this
           time
           study
           the
           dissimulation
           of
           your
           intention
           ,
           otherwise
           I
           must
           have
           known
           it
           .
        
         
           I
           was
           heretofore
           more
           indulgent
           towards
           you
           ,
           for
           God
           knows
           it
           
             Walter
             ,
          
           the
           sonne
           of
           my
           bodie
           was
           never
           so
           deare
           unto
           me
           ,
           as
           the
           salvation
           of
           my
           sonne
           
             Walters
          
           soule
           ,
           your
           yonger
           yeers
           can
           witnesse
           how
           I
           shewed
           you
           the
           way
           which
           I
           my selfe
           took
           to
           settle
           mine
           own
           salvation
           :
           for
           though
           it
           was
           my
           happinesse
           to
           be
           derived
           from
           vertuous
           and
           religious
           parents
           ;
           yet
           I
           tooke
           not
           my
           Religion
           meerly
           by
           discent
           ,
           but
           studied
           and
           examined
           the
           ground
           on
           which
           I
           was
           to
           found
           my
           faith
           ;
           I
           read
           both
           Papists
           and
           Protestants
           ,
           I
           found
           both
           confident
           ,
           and
           contradictory
           .
        
         
           
             Et
             quoties
             palpitavit
             mihi
             tremulum
             cor
             ,
          
           before
           I
           setled
           either
           way
           ?
           sometimes
           thinking
           safest
           to
           mean
           well
           ,
           and
           to
           keep
           unsetled
           either
           way
           ,
           yet
           I
           saw
           a
           necessity
           laid
           on
           mee
           ,
           to
           be
           one
           of
           the
           two
           Churches
           ,
           but
           how
           to
           find
           out
           which
           of
           them
           was
           the
           true
           Church
           ,
           whereof
           I
           must
           be
           a
           member
           if
           I
           would
           secure
           my
           salvation
           ,
           
             hic
             labor
             hoc
             opus
             est
             :
          
           I
           easily
           resolved
           there
           was
           not
           two
           Churches
           whereof
           a
           man
           might
           chuse
           which
           to
           be
           of
           ,
           and
           after
           long
           study
           I
           found
           cleerly
           that
           to
           be
           
           the
           true
           Church
           ,
           which
           constantly
           held
           the
           common
           faith
           ,
           which
           faith
           had
           the
           Scripture
           for
           the
           rule
           ,
           this
           known
           and
           resolved
           ,
           which
           is
           undoubted
           ,
           then
           I
           was
           not
           scared
           with
           that
           fearfull
           censure
           of
           the
           
             Roman
          
           Church
           ,
           which
           pronounced
           all
           damned
           that
           are
           not
           of
           that
           Church
           .
        
         
           But
           how
           much
           am
           I
           distasted
           to
           finde
           severall
           arguments
           made
           in
           the
           Letter
           ,
           all
           to
           insinuate
           that
           the
           Scriptures
           are
           not
           a
           competent
           rule
           of
           faith
           ?
           and
           first
           ,
           varietie
           of
           interpretation
           ,
           secondly
           ,
           obscuritie
           of
           some
           places
           ,
           thirdly
           ,
           inauthentiquences
           of
           themselves
           ,
           fourthly
           ,
           their
           authoritie
           dependent
           on
           the
           Church
           ,
           fiftly
           ,
           the
           puritie
           of
           them
           warranted
           by
           the
           visibility
           of
           the
           Church
           ,
           sixtly
           ,
           made
           Authentike
           by
           the
           Churches
           authoritie
           :
           strange
           assertions
           ,
           as
           if
           the
           true
           Church
           were
           not
           to
           be
           tried
           by
           the
           true
           faith
           ,
           but
           the
           true
           faith
           by
           the
           
             Church
             .
          
           I
           know
           my self
           bound
           to
           believe
           the
           authoritie
           of
           that
           Church
           which
           makes
           Scripture
           the
           rule
           of
           faith
           ;
           but
           as
           for
           the
           act
           of
           any
           Church
           ,
           though
           it
           be
           a
           fit
           Ministry
           to
           shew
           me
           the
           way
           ,
           yet
           it
           is
           not
           of
           authority
           sufficient
           of
           it selfe
           to
           secure
           me
           of
           my
           salvation
           ;
           from
           true
           faith
           the
           true
           Church
           is
           inferr'd
           ,
           and
           which
           is
           the
           true
           Church
           when
           all
           is
           done
           must
           be
           tried
           by
           the
           Scripture
           :
           but
           it
           is
           now
           with
           us
           ,
           as
           it
           was
           in
           the
           time
           of
           
             Chrysostome
             ,
          
           when
           there
           was
           so
           much
           question
           ,
           which
           was
           the
           true
           Church
           ,
           and
           men
           were
           of
           so
           many
           different
           opinions
           about
           it
           as
           none
           could
           tell
           what
           Church
           to
           bee
           of
           ,
           or
           what
           Religion
           was
           safest
           to
           trust
           to
           ,
           so
           saith
           the
           Father
           of
           the
           Scriptures
           ,
           which
           in
           matters
           of
           faith
           necessary
           to
           salvation
           speak
           so
           truly
           ,
           so
           fully
           ,
           so
           plainly
           ,
           as
           it
           is
           but
           a
           shift
           for
           a
           man
           to
           say
           ,
           he
           understands
           them
           not
           ;
           and
           good
           Saint
           
             Austin
          
           finding
           that
           from
           controversies
           in
           Religion
           ,
           there
           came
           no
           other
           fruit
           ,
           but
           
             indeterminata
             luctatio
             ,
          
           said
           with
           sorrow
           ,
           Why
           do
           we
           strive
           about
           our
           Fathers
           Will
           ?
           
             Nos
             fuimus
             fratres
             ,
          
           and
           our
           Father
           is
           not
           dead
           intestate
           ,
           but
           hath
           left
           his
           Will
           and
           
           Testament
           in
           writing
           :
           let
           it
           be
           followed
           and
           all
           controversies
           will
           soon
           be
           ended
           .
           Flatter
           not
           your self
           
             Walter
             ,
          
           the
           Remonstrance
           you
           make
           shews
           that
           the
           resignation
           you
           made
           of
           your selfe
           to
           the
           church
           of
           
             Rome
          
           was
           precipitate
           ,
           then
           the
           resolution
           to
           live
           and
           die
           there
           desperate
           ,
           yet
           you
           give
           some
           hopes
           when
           you
           say
           ,
           nor
           do
           you
           now
           so
           desperatly
           professe
           ,
           as
           if
           it
           were
           your
           fortunes
           legacie
           ,
           for
           you
           do
           not
           believe
           it
           so
           dangerous
           but
           it
           may
           recover
           .
        
         
           The
           Kings
           benignitie
           and
           goodnesse
           is
           always
           to
           interpret
           the
           best
           ,
           but
           know
           that
           his
           Majestie
           hath
           a
           better
           opinion
           of
           those
           who
           are
           bred
           such
           ,
           then
           of
           those
           who
           become
           such
           by
           relapse
           ;
           nor
           am
           I
           willing
           to
           apprehend
           any
           change
           of
           your
           dutie
           ,
           yet
           take
           this
           for
           a
           caveat
           ,
           that
           commonly
           all
           changes
           follow
           change
           of
           faith
           .
           I
           never
           travelled
           of
           you
           till
           now
           ,
           and
           it
           is
           with
           a
           great
           deal
           of
           paine
           ,
           I
           thought
           you
           should
           have
           wept
           over
           me
           ,
           when
           Nature
           had
           called
           for
           her
           due
           ,
           but
           you
           have
           prevented
           me
           ,
           And
           yet
           my
           sonne
           you
           may
           yet
           returne
           to
           me
           ,
           but
           I
           shall
           never
           goe
           to
           you
           in
           this
           way
           ,
           nor
           had
           I
           ever
           gone
           so
           far
           into
           this
           question
           ,
           but
           to
           fetch
           you
           again
           my
           sonne
           otherwise
           a
           lost
           child
           .
        
         
           Thus
           as
           your
           Letter
           began
           so
           do
           I
           end
           ,
           after
           much
           debate
           concerning
           a
           fit
           expression
           of
           my selfe
           ,
           whether
           was
           better
           by
           not
           writing
           to
           shew
           my
           dislike
           ,
           or
           by
           long
           writing
           to
           labour
           your
           recovery
           ;
           this
           last
           was
           most
           satisfactory
           to
           my
           conscience
           ,
           though
           the
           other
           more
           agreeable
           to
           nature
           displeased
           ;
           I
           have
           therefore
           resolved
           as
           you
           see
           to
           give
           you
           this
           answer
           ,
           and
           I
           pray
           God
           that
           he
           may
           blesse
           you
           and
           mee
           so
           in
           it
           ,
           that
           my
           pen
           may
           have
           the
           fruit
           my
           heart
           wishes
           .
        
         
           
             Your
             Loving
             Father
             ,
             Manchester
             .
          
        
      
       
       
         
           My
           Lord
           
             Faulklands
          
           Answer
           .
        
         
           A
           Letter
           of
           Master
           
             Mountagu
             ,
          
           justifying
           his
           change
           of
           Religion
           ,
           being
           dispers'd
           in
           many
           copies
           ,
           I
           was
           desired
           to
           give
           my
           opinion
           of
           the
           Reasons
           ,
           and
           my
           reason
           if
           I
           misliked
           them
           ;
           having
           read
           and
           consider'd
           it
           ,
           I
           was
           brought
           to
           be
           perswaded
           ,
           First
           ,
           because
           having
           beene
           sometimes
           in
           some
           degrees
           mov'd
           with
           the
           same
           inducements
           ,
           I
           thought
           that
           what
           satisfied
           me
           might
           possibly
           have
           the
           same
           effect
           upon
           him
           :
           Secondly
           ,
           because
           
             I
          
           being
           a
           Layman
           ,
           a
           youngman
           ,
           and
           an
           ignorant
           man
           ,
           
             I
          
           thought
           a
           little
           reason
           might
           in
           likelihood
           work
           more
           from
           my
           pen
           ,
           then
           more
           from
           theirs
           ,
           whose
           profession
           ,
           age
           ,
           and
           studies
           might
           make
           him
           suspect
           that
           it
           is
           they
           are
           too
           hard
           for
           him
           ,
           and
           not
           their
           cause
           for
           his
           :
           Thirdly
           ,
           because
           I
           was
           very
           desirous
           to
           doe
           him
           service
           ,
           not
           onely
           as
           a
           man
           ,
           and
           a
           Christian
           ,
           but
           as
           one
           whom
           all
           that
           know
           him
           inwardly
           esteeme
           of
           great
           parts
           (
           and
           
             I
          
           am
           desirous
           somewhat
           to
           make
           up
           my
           great
           want
           of
           them
           by
           my
           respects
           to
           those
           that
           have
           them
           )
           and
           as
           an
           impartiall
           seeker
           of
           Truth
           which
           
             I
          
           trust
           he
           is
           ,
           and
           
             I
          
           professe
           my selfe
           to
           be
           ;
           and
           so
           much
           for
           the
           cause
           of
           this
           paper
           :
           
             I
          
           come
           now
           to
           that
           which
           it
           opposeth
           .
        
         
         
           First
           then
           ,
           whereas
           he
           defends
           his
           search
           ,
           I
           suppose
           hee
           is
           rather
           for
           that
           to
           receive
           prayse
           ,
           then
           to
           make
           apologies
           ,
           all
           men
           having
           cause
           to
           suspect
           that
           gold
           which
           were
           given
           with
           this
           condition
           ,
           that
           the
           Receiver
           should
           not
           try
           it
           by
           any
           touchstone
           .
        
         
           Secondly
           ,
           Hee
           saith
           ,
           that
           there
           being
           two
           sorts
           of
           questions
           ,
           the
           one
           of
           right
           or
           doctrine
           ,
           the
           other
           of
           fact
           or
           story
           ,
           as
           whether
           the
           Protestants
           faith
           had
           a
           visible
           appearance
           before
           
             Luther
             ,
          
           hee
           resolved
           to
           begin
           his
           enquiry
           with
           the
           matter
           of
           fact
           ,
           as
           being
           sooner
           to
           be
           found
           (
           because
           but
           one
           )
           &
           easier
           to
           be
           cōprehended
           :
           to
           this
           I
           answer
           by
           saying
           ,
           that
           if
           they
           would
           not
           appeal
           from
           the
           right
           Tribunall
           ,
           or
           rather
           rule
           ,
           which
           is
           the
           Scripture
           ,
           those
           many
           might
           easier
           be
           ended
           then
           this
           one
           (
           we
           building
           our
           faith
           onely
           upon
           plain
           places
           ,
           and
           all
           reasonable
           men
           being
           sufficient
           judges
           of
           what
           is
           plain
           )
           but
           if
           they
           appeal
           to
           a
           consent
           of
           Fathers
           ,
           or
           Councels
           ,
           whereof
           many
           are
           lost
           ,
           many
           ,
           not
           lost
           ,
           not
           to
           bee
           gotten
           ,
           many
           uncertain
           whether
           Fathers
           or
           no
           Fathers
           ,
           and
           those
           which
           we
           have
           being
           too
           many
           for
           almost
           any
           industry
           to
           read
           over
           ,
           and
           absolutely
           for
           any
           memory
           to
           remember
           ,
           which
           yet
           is
           necessary
           (
           because
           any
           one
           clause
           of
           any
           one
           Father
           destroys
           a
           consent
           )
           and
           being
           besides
           liable
           to
           all
           the
           exceptions
           which
           can
           bee
           brought
           against
           the
           Scriptures
           being
           the
           rule
           ,
           as
           difficulty
           ,
           want
           of
           an
           infallible
           interpreter
           ,
           and
           such
           like
           ,
           and
           being
           denied
           to
           have
           any
           infallibilitie
           (
           especially
           when
           they
           speak
           as
           witnesses
           ,
           which
           a
           consent
           of
           them
           never
           doth
           against
           us
           )
           by
           one
           party
           ,
           which
           the
           Scripture
           is
           allow'd
           to
           have
           by
           both
           ,
           then
           I
           wonder
           not
           if
           he
           think
           such
           a
           way
           so
           uncertain
           ,
           and
           so
           long
           ,
           that
           he
           was
           willing
           to
           chuse
           any
           shorter
           cut
           rather
           then
           travell
           it
           .
           Neither
           doe
           I
           believe
           this
           to
           be
           so
           short
           ,
           or
           so
           concluding
           as
           he
           imagines
           ,
           for
           if
           he
           consider
           the
           large
           extent
           of
           Christian
           Religion
           ,
           so
           that
           wee
           know
           little
           from
           any
           indifferent
           Relator
           of
           the
           opinions
           of
           the
           
             Abissines
             ,
          
           so
           great
           a
           part
           of
           
           
             Christendome
             ,
          
           if
           he
           consider
           the
           great
           industry
           of
           his
           church
           in
           extinguishing
           those
           whom
           they
           have
           call'd
           Heretikes
           ,
           and
           also
           their
           Books
           ,
           so
           that
           wee
           know
           scarce
           any
           thing
           of
           any
           of
           them
           but
           from
           themselves
           (
           who
           are
           too
           partiall
           to
           make
           good
           Historians
           )
           if
           hee
           consider
           how
           carefully
           they
           stop
           mens
           mouthes
           (
           even
           those
           of
           their
           own
           )
           with
           their
           
             Indices
             Expurgatorii
             ,
          
           it
           will
           then
           appeare
           to
           him
           both
           a
           long
           work
           to
           seek
           ,
           and
           a
           hard
           one
           to
           finde
           ,
           whether
           any
           thought
           like
           
             Luther
          
           in
           all
           ages
           ,
           and
           that
           hee
           concludes
           very
           rashly
           who
           resolves
           there
           was
           none
           because
           he
           cannot
           finde
           any
           ,
           since
           they
           might
           have
           bin
           visible
           in
           their
           time
           ,
           &
           yet
           not
           so
           to
           us
           (
           for
           men
           are
           not
           the
           less
           visible
           when
           they
           are
           so
           ,
           for
           not
           being
           after
           remembred
           )
           as
           a
           man
           may
           be
           a
           Gentleman
           ,
           though
           he
           know
           not
           his
           pedidigree
           :
           so
           that
           as
           I
           will
           not
           affirm
           that
           there
           were
           always
           such
           ,
           because
           I
           cannot
           prove
           it
           ,
           so
           neither
           ought
           they
           to
           make
           themselves
           sure
           there
           were
           none
           without
           they
           could
           prove
           that
           which
           is
           impossible
           ,
           and
           therefore
           no
           argument
           can
           be
           drawn
           from
           thence
           :
           and
           if
           it
           could
           be
           proved
           that
           such
           a
           no-wayes
           erring
           church
           must
           at
           all
           times
           be
           ,
           I
           had
           rather
           believe
           that
           there
           were
           still
           such
           ,
           though
           wee
           know
           them
           not
           ,
           which
           may
           be
           true
           ,
           then
           that
           theirs
           is
           it
           ,
           which
           in
           my
           opinion
           cannot
           .
        
         
           Thirdly
           ,
           He
           says
           ,
           hee
           could
           finde
           no
           one
           point
           of
           controverted
           doctrine
           ,
           whereupon
           all
           the
           rest
           depended
           ,
           but
           that
           this
           one
           question
           of
           fact
           was
           such
           as
           the
           decision
           of
           it
           determined
           all
           the
           rest
           .
           To
           this
           I
           answer
           ,
           that
           the
           question
           of
           the
           infallibilitie
           of
           the
           Pope
           ,
           at
           least
           of
           those
           who
           adhere
           to
           him
           ,
           which
           they
           call
           the
           church
           is
           such
           a
           one
           as
           if
           determin'd
           must
           determine
           all
           the
           rest
           ,
           and
           not
           onely
           so
           to
           us
           but
           to
           all
           men
           ;
           whereas
           this
           (
           though
           granted
           necessarie
           ,
           &
           determin'd
           to
           his
           wish
           )
           would
           indeed
           conclude
           against
           us
           ,
           but
           not
           for
           them
           ,
           since
           the
           
             Greek
          
           Church
           would
           put
           in
           as
           good
           plea
           upon
           the
           title
           of
           
           visibilitie
           as
           that
           of
           
             Rome
             ,
          
           and
           hee
           would
           be
           to
           begin
           anew
           with
           them
           ,
           when
           he
           had
           ended
           with
           us
           .
        
         
           Fourthly
           ,
           He
           gives
           his
           reason
           .
           If
           
             Luther
          
           could
           be
           evicted
           to
           be
           the
           Innovator
           ,
           his
           Religion
           was
           then
           evicted
           of
           not
           being
           the
           true
           Ancient
           and
           Apostolicall
           ;
           To
           this
           I
           answer
           ,
           by
           confessing
           the
           consequence
           ,
           but
           hee
           might
           be
           the
           Renovator
           ,
           and
           not
           the
           Innovator
           ,
           and
           then
           no
           such
           consequence
           follows
           .
        
         
           Fifthly
           ,
           He
           saith
           ,
           we
           are
           bound
           to
           find
           an
           existence
           of
           some
           Professors
           of
           the
           Reformed
           Religion
           before
           
             Luther
             ,
          
           which
           requiry
           is
           grounded
           upon
           his
           supposition
           of
           the
           necessity
           of
           a
           continuall
           succession
           of
           a
           visible
           and
           no
           wayes
           erroneous
           Church
           .
           Now
           I
           will
           first
           examine
           the
           sence
           of
           his
           tearmes
           :
           By
           the
           first
           I
           conceive
           by
           a
           place
           hee
           cites
           out
           of
           Saint
           
             Augustine
             ,
          
           that
           he
           means
           visible
           to
           all
           Nations
           ,
           but
           I
           pray
           hath
           his
           been
           always
           so
           ,
           I
           mean
           (
           at
           least
           for
           many
           Centuries
           )
           to
           those
           Nations
           which
           
             Columbus
          
           hath
           not
           long
           since
           discovered
           ?
           By
           the
           second
           tearm
           Church
           ,
           I
           suppose
           he
           means
           a
           company
           of
           Christians
           holding
           neither
           more
           or
           lesse
           then
           Christ
           taught
           (
           for
           in
           a
           more
           large
           sence
           no
           man
           denies
           the
           Church
           to
           have
           bin
           always
           in
           some
           degrees
           visible
           )
           and
           in
           this
           sence
           I
           not
           onely
           deny
           it
           necessary
           ,
           that
           it
           should
           always
           be
           visible
           ,
           but
           that
           it
           should
           alwayes
           be
           ,
           for
           I
           doubt
           whether
           there
           be
           ,
           or
           for
           a
           long
           while
           have
           bin
           any
           such
           .
           Next
           that
           such
           a
           one
           as
           hee
           meanes
           appeares
           ,
           because
           when
           catalogues
           have
           been
           brought
           of
           some
           who
           in
           all
           ages
           have
           differed
           from
           them
           in
           things
           which
           wee
           hold
           ,
           his
           side
           would
           not
           accept
           of
           them
           ,
           because
           they
           agreed
           not
           with
           us
           in
           al
           things
           ,
           &
           yet
           when
           
             Campian
          
           intends
           to
           prove
           all
           the
           Fathers
           to
           be
           his
           ,
           hee
           useth
           onely
           this
           course
           of
           instancing
           in
           some
           wherein
           they
           agree
           with
           him
           (
           though
           sometimes
           not
           so
           much
           ,
           but
           rather
           the
           contrary
           ought
           to
           be
           inferred
           ,
           as
           in
           the
           instance
           of
           
             Polycarpus
             ,
          
           for
           comparing
           his
           words
           with
           the
           History
           it
           will
           appeare
           that
           he
           
           concluded
           him
           a
           Papist
           for
           not
           being
           perswaded
           by
           the
           Pope
           )
           though
           they
           differed
           from
           them
           in
           many
           other
           ,
           as
           indeed
           all
           the
           notable
           Fathers
           doe
           in
           more
           then
           one
           point
           .
           I
           will
           therefore
           say
           ,
           that
           if
           this
           be
           required
           to
           shewing
           that
           a
           Church
           hath
           been
           ever
           visible
           ,
           it
           is
           more
           then
           either
           part
           can
           doe
           ,
           and
           therefore
           I
           hope
           they
           will
           come
           upon
           better
           consideration
           ,
           to
           confesse
           that
           not
           necessary
           for
           us
           to
           doe
           ,
           which
           is
           impossible
           for
           themselves
           :
           For
           let
           any
           man
           look
           into
           Antiquitie
           ,
           I
           will
           not
           say
           without
           all
           prejudice
           ,
           but
           without
           an
           absolute
           Resolution
           of
           seeing
           nothing
           in
           it
           that
           contradicts
           his
           present
           beliefe
           ,
           and
           if
           he
           find
           not
           some
           opinions
           of
           the
           Church
           of
           
             Rome
             ,
          
           as
           unknown
           to
           Antiquity
           ,
           as
           either
           hee
           or
           I
           ,
           as
           the
           Popes
           Indulgenges
           having
           power
           to
           deliver
           out
           of
           Purgatory
           (
           confest
           by
           Bishop
           
             Fisher
             ,
          
           and
           
             Alphonsus
             de
             Castro
             ,
          
           where
           they
           treat
           of
           Indulgences
           )
           if
           hee
           finde
           not
           others
           at
           first
           unknown
           after
           known
           ,
           but
           not
           held
           
             de
             fide
             ,
          
           which
           are
           yet
           so
           at
           
             Rome
             ,
          
           as
           prayer
           to
           Saints
           ,
           their
           enjoying
           the
           beatificall
           vision
           before
           the
           day
           of
           Judgment
           ,
           the
           Assumption
           of
           the
           Blessed
           Virgin
           ,
           and
           her
           being
           free
           from
           all
           actuall
           sinne
           ;
           If
           he
           find
           not
           some
           wholly
           unknown
           &
           absolutely
           condemned
           which
           wee
           condemne
           ,
           as
           the
           lawfulnesse
           of
           picturing
           of
           God
           the
           Father
           ,
           whereof
           the
           first
           is
           confest
           by
           
             Baronius
          
           in
           the
           margent
           ,
           to
           an
           Epistle
           of
           a
           Pope
           ,
           which
           sayes
           the
           same
           ,
           and
           the
           latter
           is
           to
           be
           found
           in
           
           many
           places
           of
           Saint
           
             Austine
             ,
             Lactantius
             ,
          
           and
           others
           ;
           nay
           ,
           if
           he
           find
           not
           that
           all
           the
           Doctors
           ,
           Saints
           ,
           and
           Martyrs
           of
           the
           two
           first
           ages
           (
           I
           mean
           as
           many
           as
           are
           now
           extant
           ,
           and
           speak
           of
           it
           )
           held
           something
           which
           both
           parties
           condemned
           ,
           as
           the
           opinion
           of
           the
           
             Chiliasts
             ,
          
           if
           I
           say
           he
           finde
           not
           this
           ,
           or
           I
           shew
           him
           not
           that
           he
           might
           have
           found
           it
           ,
           I
           professe
           I
           will
           be
           ready
           to
           spend
           my
           life
           for
           the
           Church
           against
           which
           I
           now
           employ
           my
           pen
           :
           So
           that
           this
           will
           be
           the
           end
           ,
           neither
           of
           our
           Churches
           have
           been
           always
           visible
           ,
           onely
           this
           is
           the
           difference
           ,
           that
           we
           are
           troubled
           to
           shew
           our
           Church
           in
           the
           latter
           
           and
           more
           corrupt
           ages
           ,
           and
           they
           theirs
           in
           the
           first
           and
           purest
           ,
           that
           wee
           can
           least
           finde
           ours
           at
           night
           ,
           and
           they
           theirs
           at
           noon
           :
           And
           whereas
           hee
           expects
           that
           D.
           
             White
          
           should
           stand
           to
           this
           to
           confess
           his
           Religion
           false
           if
           a
           continual
           descent
           of
           it
           could
           not
           be
           demonstrated
           ,
           if
           hee
           himselfe
           please
           to
           grant
           as
           much
           as
           he
           exacts
           ,
           if
           he
           but
           continue
           in
           this
           Resolution
           ,
           and
           in
           this
           search
           ,
           I
           doubt
           no
           more
           but
           that
           hee
           will
           soone
           leave
           to
           be
           a
           Papist
           ,
           then
           I
           should
           doubt
           if
           I
           saw
           him
           now
           receiving
           the
           Communion
           in
           the
           Kings
           Chappell
           ,
           that
           he
           had
           done
           it
           already
           .
        
         
           Sixthly
           ,
           his
           reason
           for
           the
           necessitie
           of
           the
           visibility
           follows
           ,
           because
           the
           cōtrary
           were
           a
           derogation
           from
           Gods
           power
           or
           providence
           ,
           I
           answer
           ,
           to
           say
           he
           could
           not
           keep
           the
           truth
           exactly
           in
           mens
           beliefe
           ,
           were
           to
           derogate
           from
           Gods
           power
           ,
           to
           say
           he
           had
           not
           given
           sufficient
           means
           to
           finde
           the
           truth
           ,
           and
           yet
           damned
           men
           for
           error
           ,
           the
           first
           would
           be
           a
           derogation
           from
           his
           providence
           ,
           the
           second
           from
           his
           Justice
           ,
           but
           to
           say
           hee
           suffers
           men
           to
           erre
           who
           neglect
           the
           meanes
           of
           not
           erring
           ,
           and
           that
           he
           damnes
           none
           for
           a
           meere
           errour
           ,
           in
           which
           the
           will
           hath
           no
           part
           ,
           and
           consequently
           the
           man
           no
           fault
           ,
           derogates
           from
           none
           of
           the
           three
           ,
           but
           sayes
           hee
           ,
           this
           is
           repugnant
           to
           the
           maine
           reason
           why
           God
           hath
           a
           Church
           upon
           earth
           to
           be
           the
           conserver
           of
           the
           doctrine
           of
           Christ
           ,
           and
           to
           convey
           it
           from
           age
           to
           age
           ,
           I
           answer
           to
           conserve
           it
           is
           every
           mans
           duty
           ,
           but
           such
           as
           they
           may
           all
           fail
           in
           ,
           and
           is
           indeed
           rather
           the
           forme
           of
           the
           Church
           then
           the
           end
           of
           the
           Church
           ,
           an
           exact
           conservation
           making
           an
           exact
           Church
           ,
           as
           a
           lesse
           perfect
           conserving
           a
           lesse
           perfect
           Church
           .
           As
           for
           conveyance
           of
           doctrine
           ,
           the
           whole
           Church
           conveyes
           none
           ,
           whereof
           many
           (
           if
           his
           be
           it
           )
           have
           had
           but
           little
           convey'd
           to
           them
           .
           Particular
           Christians
           (
           especially
           Pastors
           )
           teach
           others
           which
           it
           is
           every
           mans
           duty
           to
           doe
           when
           he
           meets
           with
           them
           who
           want
           instruction
           which
           he
           can
           give
           ,
           and
           they
           are
           likely
           to
           receive
           ,
           yet
           is
           not
           the
           instruction
           
           of
           others
           every
           mans
           mayne
           end
           .
           But
           I
           know
           Master
           
             Mountague
          
           perswades
           himself
           that
           some
           body
           of
           men
           are
           appointed
           to
           convey
           this
           doctrine
           which
           men
           are
           to
           receive
           ,
           onely
           because
           they
           deliver
           it
           ,
           and
           this
           I
           absolutely
           deny
           ,
           for
           we
           receive
           no
           doctrine
           from
           the
           Church
           upon
           the
           Churches
           authority
           ,
           because
           we
           know
           her
           not
           to
           be
           the
           Church
           ,
           till
           we
           have
           examined
           her
           doctrine
           ,
           and
           so
           receive
           rather
           her
           for
           it
           ,
           then
           it
           for
           her
           .
           Neither
           for
           the
           conveyance
           of
           the
           Truth
           is
           it
           necessary
           that
           any
           company
           of
           men
           in
           all
           times
           hold
           it
           all
           ,
           because
           some
           may
           convey
           some
           truths
           ,
           and
           others
           other
           ,
           out
           of
           which
           by
           comparing
           their
           doctrine
           with
           the
           Scripture
           ,
           men
           may
           draw
           a
           perfect
           body
           of
           Truths
           :
           and
           though
           they
           delivered
           few
           other
           Truths
           ,
           yet
           in
           delivering
           Scripture
           (
           wherein
           all
           necessary
           Truths
           is
           containd
           )
           they
           deliver
           all
           ,
           and
           by
           that
           rule
           whosoever
           regulates
           his
           life
           and
           doctrine
           ,
           I
           am
           confident
           that
           though
           he
           may
           mistake
           errour
           for
           Truth
           in
           the
           way
           ,
           hee
           shall
           never
           mistake
           Hell
           for
           Heaven
           in
           the
           end
           .
        
         
           Seventhly
           ,
           His
           next
           reason
           is
           their
           common
           
             Achilles
             ,
          
           the
           fourth
           of
           the
           
             Ephesians
             ,
          
           which
           he
           chuseth
           onely
           to
           employ
           like
           his
           
             Triarios
             ,
          
           his
           mayn
           battell
           ,
           leaving
           his
           
             Velites
             ,
          
           his
           light
           armed
           Souldiers
           ,
           some
           places
           too
           allegorical
           ,
           even
           in
           his
           own
           opinion
           ,
           to
           stand
           examinatiō
           .
           The
           words
           are
           these
           .
           
             He
             hath
             given
             some
             Prophets
             ,
             some
             Apostles
             ,
             some
             Evangelists
             ,
             some
             Pastors
             ,
             and
             some
             Doctors
             ,
             for
             the
             instauration
             of
             the
             Saints
             ,
             for
             the
             work
             of
             the
             Ministery
             ,
             for
             the
             edification
             of
             the
             body
             of
             Christ
             ,
             till
             wee
             all
             meet
             in
             the
             unity
             of
             Faith
             ,
             and
             the
             knowledge
             of
             the
             Sonne
             of
             God
             unto
             a
             perfect
             man
             ,
             and
             unto
             the
             measure
             of
             the
             age
             of
             the
             fulnesse
             of
             Christ
             ,
             That
             we
             may
             be
             no
             more
             children
             tost
             and
             carried
             away
             with
             every
             winde
             of
             doctrine
             ,
             &c.
          
           Verse
           11
           ,
           12
           ,
           13.
           
           Now
           out
           of
           this
           place
           I
           see
           not
           how
           a
           succession
           may
           be
           evinced
           ,
           rather
           I
           thinke
           it
           may
           that
           the
           Apostle
           meant
           none
           :
           For
           first
           ,
           he
           saith
           ,
           not
           hee
           will
           give
           ,
           but
           he
           hath
           given
           ,
           and
           who
           could
           suppose
           that
           the
           Apostle
           could
           say
           that
           Christ
           had
           given
           then
           the
           present
           Pope
           ,
           and
           
           the
           Doctors
           who
           now
           adhere
           to
           him
           ;
           Secondly
           ,
           allow
           that
           by
           he
           hath
           given
           ,
           were
           meant
           ,
           he
           hath
           promis'd
           (
           which
           would
           be
           a
           glosse
           not
           much
           unlike
           to
           that
           which
           one
           of
           the
           most
           witty
           and
           most
           eloquent
           of
           our
           modern
           Divines
           Doctor
           
             Dun
          
           notes
           of
           
             Statuimus
          
           i.
           
           
             Abrogamus
             )
          
           yet
           since
           these
           severall
           Nowns
           are
           all
           governed
           by
           the
           same
           Verb
           ,
           and
           no
           distinction
           put
           ,
           it
           would
           prove
           as
           wel
           a
           necessity
           of
           a
           continual
           succession
           of
           Apostles
           ,
           Prophets
           and
           Evangelists
           ,
           as
           of
           Pastors
           ,
           and
           Doctors
           ,
           which
           is
           more
           then
           either
           they
           can
           shew
           or
           pretend
           they
           can
           ,
           so
           that
           it
           seemeth
           to
           me
           to
           follow
           that
           these
           were
           then
           given
           to
           do
           this
           ,
           till
           then
           ,
           and
           not
           a
           succession
           of
           them
           promised
           till
           then
           ,
           to
           doe
           this
           ;
           and
           so
           wee
           receiving
           and
           retaining
           the
           Scriptures
           ,
           wherein
           what
           they
           taught
           is
           contain'd
           (
           as
           wee
           would
           any
           thing
           else
           ,
           that
           had
           as
           generall
           and
           ancient
           a
           tradition
           if
           there
           were
           any
           such
           )
           need
           no
           more
           ,
           for
           if
           hee
           say
           that
           men
           are
           tost
           for
           all
           the
           Scriptures
           ,
           I
           answer
           so
           are
           they
           for
           all
           these
           Doctors
           ,
           nay
           ,
           if
           these
           keep
           any
           from
           being
           tost
           ,
           it
           is
           the
           Scripture
           which
           does
           it
           ,
           upon
           which
           their
           authority
           is
           by
           them
           founded
           upon
           their
           own
           interpretation
           ,
           and
           reason
           ,
           who
           yet
           will
           not
           give
           us
           leave
           to
           build
           any
           thing
           upon
           ours
           out
           of
           plainer
           places
           ,
           and
           though
           they
           tell
           us
           that
           wee
           cannot
           know
           the
           Scripture
           ,
           but
           from
           the
           Church
           ,
           they
           are
           yet
           fain
           (
           as
           appeares
           )
           to
           prove
           the
           Authoritie
           of
           the
           Church
           out
           of
           Scripture
           ,
           which
           makes
           mee
           aske
           them
           in
           the
           wordes
           of
           their
           owne
           
             Campian
             ,
          
           and
           with
           much
           more
           cause
           ,
           
             Nihilne
             pudet
             Labyrinthi
             ?
          
        
         
           Eigthly
           ,
           there
           follows
           an
           other
           reason
           to
           this
           sense
           ,
           that
           Reason
           not
           being
           able
           to
           shew
           away
           to
           eternall
           happinesse
           ,
           and
           without
           such
           an
           one
           man
           would
           fail
           of
           the
           end
           to
           which
           he
           was
           ordained
           ,
           it
           must
           be
           propos'd
           by
           an
           infallible
           authority
           ,
           in
           so
           plain
           a
           manner
           as
           even
           the
           simple
           might
           be
           capable
           of
           it
           ,
           which
           being
           performed
           by
           our
           Saviour
           ,
           it
           must
           be
           convai'd
           to
           succeeding
           
           ages
           by
           those
           who
           heard
           it
           from
           him
           ,
           and
           whensoever
           this
           thread
           failed
           mankind
           was
           left
           without
           a
           guide
           to
           inevitable
           ruine
           ;
           I
           answere
           ,
           that
           though
           all
           this
           be
           granted
           ,
           it
           proves
           not
           against
           us
           ,
           for
           we
           have
           the
           Scripture
           come
           downe
           to
           us
           relating
           Christs
           Doctrine
           ,
           and
           written
           by
           those
           that
           heard
           it
           ,
           and
           which
           the
           simple
           are
           capable
           of
           understanding
           (
           I
           mean
           as
           much
           as
           is
           plaine
           ,
           and
           more
           is
           not
           necessary
           ,
           since
           other
           Questions
           may
           as
           well
           be
           suffered
           without
           harme
           as
           those
           betweene
           the
           Jesuites
           and
           Dominicans
           about
           Predetermination
           ,
           and
           betweene
           the
           Dominicans
           ,
           and
           almost
           all
           the
           rest
           about
           the
           Immacultate
           conception
           )
           and
           those
           who
           are
           not
           neither
           are
           they
           capable
           out
           of
           Scripture
           to
           discerne
           the
           true
           Church
           ;
           Much
           lesse
           by
           any
           of
           these
           notes
           ,
           which
           require
           much
           understanding
           and
           large
           learning
           ,
           as
           conformity
           with
           the
           Ancients
           ,
           and
           such
           like
           .
        
         
           Ninthly
           ,
           the
           same
           answere
           I
           give
           to
           this
           serves
           also
           to
           the
           following
           words
           of
           Saint
           
             Austin
             ,
          
           for
           whereas
           Master
           
             Mountague
          
           concludeth
           ,
           that
           he
           could
           not
           meane
           the
           Scriptures
           as
           a
           competent
           rule
           to
           mankind
           ,
           which
           consisteth
           most
           of
           simple
           persons
           ,
           because
           there
           hath
           been
           continuall
           altercations
           about
           the
           sense
           of
           important
           places
           ,
           I
           answere
           that
           I
           may
           as
           well
           conclude
           by
           the
           same
           Logick
           ,
           that
           neither
           is
           the
           Church
           a
           competent
           guide
           ,
           because
           in
           all
           ages
           there
           have
           also
           beene
           disputes
           ,
           not
           onely
           about
           her
           authority
           but
           even
           which
           was
           shee
           ,
           and
           to
           whatsoever
           reason
           he
           imputes
           this
           ,
           to
           the
           same
           may
           we
           the
           other
           ,
           as
           to
           negligence
           ,
           pride
           ,
           prejudication
           and
           the
           like
           ;
           and
           if
           he
           please
           to
           search
           ,
           I
           verily
           beleeve
           he
           will
           find
           that
           the
           Scriptures
           are
           both
           easier
           to
           bee
           knowne
           then
           the
           Church
           ,
           and
           that
           it
           is
           as
           easie
           to
           know
           what
           these
           teach
           as
           when
           that
           hath
           defin'd
           ,
           since
           they
           hold
           no
           Decrees
           binding
           
             de
             fide
          
           without
           a
           confirmation
           of
           the
           popes
           ,
           who
           can
           never
           bee
           knowne
           infallibly
           to
           be
           a
           Pope
           ,
           because
           a
           secret
           simony
           makes
           
           him
           none
           ,
           no
           not
           to
           be
           a
           Christian
           ,
           because
           want
           of
           due
           intention
           in
           the
           Baptizer
           makes
           him
           none
           ,
           whereof
           the
           latter
           is
           always
           possible
           ,
           and
           the
           first
           in
           some
           ages
           likely
           ,
           and
           in
           hard
           Questions
           ,
           a
           readinesse
           to
           yeeld
           to
           the
           Scriptures
           when
           they
           shall
           be
           explan'd
           me thinks
           should
           serve
           ,
           as
           well
           as
           a
           readinesse
           to
           assent
           to
           the
           decrees
           of
           the
           Church
           when
           those
           shall
           bee
           pronounced
           .
        
         
           Tenthly
           ,
           Hee
           saith
           the
           Scripture
           must
           be
           kept
           safe
           in
           some
           hands
           ,
           whose
           authority
           must
           beget
           our
           acceptance
           of
           them
           ,
           which
           being
           no
           other
           then
           the
           Church
           of
           all
           ages
           ,
           we
           have
           no
           more
           reason
           to
           beleeve
           that
           it
           hath
           preserved
           that
           free
           from
           corruption
           then
           its
           selfe
           in
           a
           continuall
           visibility
           :
           I
           answer
           that
           neither
           to
           giving
           authority
           to
           Scripture
           nor
           to
           the
           keeping
           of
           them
           is
           required
           a
           continuall
           visibility
           of
           a
           no
           ways
           erring
           body
           of
           Christians
           ,
           the
           writers
           of
           them
           give
           them
           their
           authority
           amongst
           Christians
           ,
           nor
           can
           the
           Church
           move
           any
           other
           ,
           and
           that
           they
           were
           the
           writers
           of
           them
           ,
           we
           receive
           from
           the
           generall
           Tradition
           ,
           and
           testimony
           of
           the
           first
           Christians
           ,
           not
           from
           any
           following
           Church
           ,
           who
           could
           know
           nothing
           of
           it
           but
           from
           them
           (
           for
           for
           those
           parts
           which
           were
           then
           doubted
           of
           by
           such
           as
           were
           not
           condemned
           for
           it
           by
           the
           rest
           why
           may
           not
           wee
           remayn
           in
           the
           same
           suspence
           of
           them
           that
           they
           did
           )
           &
           for
           their
           being
           kept
           and
           convey'd
           this
           was
           not
           done
           onely
           by
           their
           Church
           ,
           but
           by
           the
           
             Greeks
             ,
          
           and
           there
           is
           no
           reason
           to
           say
           that
           to
           the
           keeping
           ,
           and
           transmitting
           of
           Records
           safely
           it
           is
           required
           to
           understand
           them
           perfectly
           ,
           since
           the
           old
           Testament
           was
           kept
           &
           transmitted
           by
           the
           
             Iews
             ,
          
           who
           yet
           were
           so
           capable
           of
           erring
           ,
           that
           out
           of
           it
           they
           lookt
           for
           a
           temporall
           King
           ,
           when
           it
           spake
           of
           a
           spiritual
           :
           &
           me thinks
           the
           testimonie
           is
           greater
           of
           a
           church
           that
           contradicts
           the
           Scripture
           then
           which
           doth
           not
           ,
           since
           no
           mans
           witnessing
           is
           so
           soon
           to
           be
           taken
           as
           when
           against
           himselfe
           ,
           and
           so
           their
           testimony
           is
           greater
           of
           a
           Church
           that
           contradicts
           the
           Scripture
           
           by
           which
           themselves
           are
           condemn'd
           :
           Besides
           the
           generall
           reverence
           which
           ever
           hath
           bin
           given
           to
           the
           Books
           ,
           &
           the
           continuall
           use
           of
           them
           (
           together
           with
           severall
           parties
           having
           alwayes
           their
           eyes
           upon
           each
           other
           ready
           and
           desirous
           to
           have
           somewhat
           to
           accuse
           in
           their
           Adversaries
           )
           gives
           us
           greater
           certainty
           that
           these
           are
           the
           same
           writings
           ,
           then
           we
           have
           that
           any
           other
           ancient
           Book
           is
           any
           other
           ancient
           Authors
           ,
           and
           we
           need
           not
           to
           have
           any
           other
           unerring
           company
           preserv'd
           to
           make
           us
           surer
           of
           it
           :
           yet
           the
           Church
           of
           
             Rome
          
           as
           infallible
           a
           Depositarie
           as
           she
           is
           ,
           hath
           suffer'd
           some
           varieties
           to
           creepe
           into
           the
           Copies
           in
           some
           lesse
           materiall
           things
           ,
           nay
           and
           some
           whole
           Books
           (
           as
           they
           themselves
           say
           )
           to
           be
           lost
           ,
           and
           if
           they
           say
           how
           then
           can
           that
           be
           the
           rule
           whereof
           part
           is
           lost
           ,
           I
           answer
           ,
           that
           wee
           are
           excus'd
           if
           we
           walk
           by
           all
           the
           rule
           that
           we
           have
           ,
           and
           this
           makes
           much
           against
           Traditions
           being
           the
           rule
           ,
           since
           the
           Church
           hath
           not
           lookt
           better
           to
           Gods
           unwritten
           word
           then
           to
           his
           written
           ,
           and
           if
           she
           pretend
           she
           hath
           ,
           let
           her
           tell
           us
           the
           cause
           why
           Antichrists
           comming
           was
           deferr'd
           ,
           which
           was
           a
           Tradition
           of
           St.
           
             Paul
          
           to
           the
           Thessalonians
           ,
           and
           which
           without
           impudence
           she
           cannot
           pretend
           not
           to
           have
           lost
           ,
           and
           if
           againe
           they
           say
           God
           hath
           preserv'd
           all
           necessary
           Traditions
           ,
           I
           reply
           so
           hath
           hee
           all
           necessary
           Scripture
           ,
           for
           by
           not
           being
           preserv'd
           it
           became
           to
           us
           not
           necessary
           ,
           since
           wee
           cannot
           be
           bound
           to
           beleeve
           and
           follow
           what
           we
           cannot
           finde
           .
           But
           besides
           ,
           I
           beleeve
           that
           all
           which
           was
           ever
           necessary
           is
           contain'd
           in
           what
           remaines
           ,
           for
           
             Pappias
          
           sayes
           of
           S.
           
             Mark
             ,
          
           that
           he
           writ
           all
           that
           S.
           
             Peter
          
           preach'd
           ,
           as
           
             Iraeneus
          
           doth
           that
           
             Luke
          
           writ
           all
           that
           S.
           
             Paul
          
           preach'd
           ,
           nay
           
             Vincentius
             Lirinensis
          
           though
           hee
           would
           have
           the
           Scripture
           expounded
           by
           ancient
           Tradition
           ,
           yet
           confesseth
           that
           all
           is
           there
           that
           is
           necessary
           (
           and
           yet
           then
           there
           was
           no
           more
           Scripture
           then
           we
           now
           have
           )
           as
           indeed
           by
           such
           a
           Tradition
           as
           he
           speaks
           of
           no
           more
           can
           be
           prov'd
           then
           is
           plainly
           there
           ,
           and
           almost
           all
           Christians
           confent
           in
           ,
           and
           truly
           I
           wonder
           that
           they
           should
           
           bragge
           so
           much
           of
           that
           Author
           ,
           since
           both
           in
           this
           and
           other
           things
           he
           makes
           much
           against
           them
           ,
           especially
           in
           not
           sending
           men
           to
           the
           present
           Roman
           Church
           ,
           a
           much
           readier
           way
           (
           if
           he
           had
           knowne
           it
           )
           then
           such
           a
           long
           and
           doubtfull
           one
           as
           hee
           prescribes
           ,
           which
           indeed
           it
           is
           impossible
           that
           almost
           any
           question
           should
           be
           ended
           by
           .
        
         
           Eleventhly
           ,
           He
           brings
           S.
           
             Austines
          
           authority
           to
           prove
           ,
           that
           the
           true
           Church
           must
           be
           alwayes
           visible
           ;
           but
           if
           he
           understood
           Church
           in
           Master
           
             Mountagu's
          
           sence
           ,
           I
           think
           he
           was
           deceiv'd
           .
           Neither
           is
           this
           impudence
           for
           me
           to
           say
           ,
           since
           I
           have
           cause
           to
           think
           it
           but
           his
           particular
           opinion
           ,
           by
           his
           saying
           (
           which
           Card.
           
             Perr
             .
          
           quotes
           )
           that
           before
           the
           Donatists
           the
           question
           of
           the
           Church
           had
           never
           beene
           exactly
           disputed
           of
           ,
           and
           by
           this
           being
           one
           of
           his
           maine
           grounds
           against
           them
           ,
           and
           yet
           claiming
           no
           Tradition
           ,
           but
           onely
           places
           of
           Scripture
           most
           of
           them
           allegoricall
           ,
           and
           if
           it
           were
           no
           more
           ,
           then
           I
           may
           better
           dissent
           from
           it
           ,
           then
           he
           from
           all
           the
           first
           Fathers
           ,
           (
           for
           
             Dionisius
             Areopagita
          
           was
           not
           as
           yet
           hatcht
           )
           in
           the
           point
           of
           the
           Chiliasts
           ,
           though
           some
           of
           them
           
             (
             Pappias
          
           and
           
             Iraeneus
             )
          
           claim'd
           a
           direct
           Tradition
           ,
           and
           Christs
           owne
           words
           .
           Secondly
           ,
           as
           hee
           useth
           this
           kind
           of
           liberty
           ,
           so
           he
           professeth
           it
           in
           his
           19
           Epistle
           ,
           where
           he
           saith
           ,
           that
           to
           Canonicall
           Scriptures
           he
           had
           onely
           learnt
           to
           give
           that
           reverence
           ,
           as
           not
           to
           doubt
           of
           what
           they
           said
           ,
           because
           they
           said
           it
           ,
           and
           from
           all
           others
           hee
           expected
           proofe
           from
           Scriptures
           ,
           or
           reason
           .
           Thirdly
           ,
           the
           Church
           of
           Rome
           condemnes
           severall
           opinions
           of
           him
           ,
           and
           therefore
           she
           ought
           not
           to
           finde
           fault
           with
           them
           who
           imitate
           her
           examples
           .
        
         
           Twelfthly
           ,
           He
           adds
           two
           reasons
           more
           ,
           the
           consent
           of
           the
           Fathers
           of
           all
           ages
           ,
           and
           the
           confession
           of
           Protestants
           :
           To
           the
           first
           I
           answer
           ,
           that
           I
           know
           not
           of
           any
           such
           ,
           and
           am
           the
           more
           unapt
           to
           beleeve
           it
           ,
           because
           M.
           
             Mountague
          
           vouchsafes
           not
           to
           insist
           upon
           it
           ,
           nor
           to
           quote
           any
           ,
           which
           I
           guesse
           he
           would
           have
           done
           ,
           but
           that
           hee
           misdoubted
           their
           strength
           .
           Secondly
           ,
           suppose
           
           that
           all
           the
           Fathers
           which
           speak
           of
           this
           did
           say
           so
           ,
           yet
           if
           they
           say
           it
           ,
           as
           private
           Doctors
           ,
           and
           claime
           no
           Tradition
           for
           it
           ,
           I
           know
           not
           why
           they
           should
           weigh
           more
           then
           so
           many
           of
           the
           now-learned
           ,
           who
           having
           more
           help
           from
           Art
           ,
           and
           no
           fewer
           from
           Nature
           ,
           are
           not
           worse
           searchers
           into
           what
           is
           truth
           ,
           though
           lesse
           capable
           of
           being
           witnesses
           to
           what
           was
           tradition
           .
           Thirdly
           ,
           they
           themselves
           often
           professe
           they
           expect
           not
           to
           be
           read
           as
           Judges
           ,
           but
           as
           to
           be
           judg'd
           ,
           by
           their
           and
           our
           rule
           ,
           the
           Canonicall
           Scriptures
           .
           Fourthly
           ,
           Let
           him
           please
           to
           read
           about
           the
           imaculate
           conception
           
             Posa
             ,
             Salmeron
             ,
             &
             Wadding
             ,
          
           and
           he
           will
           finde
           me
           as
           submissive
           to
           antiquity
           ,
           even
           whilest
           I
           reject
           it
           ,
           as
           those
           of
           his
           owne
           Party
           ,
           for
           they
           to
           preferre
           new
           opinions
           before
           old
           ,
           are
           faine
           to
           preferre
           new
           Doctors
           before
           old
           ,
           and
           to
           confesse
           the
           latter
           more
           perspicacious
           ,
           and
           to
           differ
           from
           those
           of
           former
           times
           ,
           with
           as
           little
           scruple
           as
           hee
           would
           from
           
             Calvin
          
           (
           whom
           
             Maldonat
          
           on
           purpose
           to
           oppose
           confesseth
           he
           chuseth
           a
           new
           Interpretation
           before
           that
           of
           all
           
           the
           Ancients
           ,
           which
           no
           witnesse
           but
           my
           eyes
           could
           have
           made
           mee
           beleeve
           )
           nay
           ,
           and
           produce
           other
           points
           wherein
           their
           Church
           hath
           decreed
           against
           the
           Fathers
           ,
           to
           perswade
           her
           to
           doe
           so
           againe
           ,
           although
           
             Campian
          
           with
           an
           eloquent
           brag
           would
           perswade
           us
           that
           they
           are
           all
           as
           much
           for
           him
           as
           
             Greg.
          
           the
           13
           ,
           who
           was
           then
           Pope
           .
           To
           the
           second
           I
           answer
           ,
           that
           infallibility
           is
           not
           by
           us
           deni'd
           to
           the
           Church
           of
           
             Rome
             ,
          
           with
           an
           intention
           of
           allowing
           it
           to
           particular
           Protestants
           ,
           how
           wise
           and
           learned
           soever
           .
        
         
           Thirteenthly
           ,
           Hee
           says
           next
           ,
           that
           hee
           after
           inform'd
           himself
           in
           other
           points
           which
           seem'd
           to
           him
           unwarrantable
           ,
           and
           superstitious
           ,
           and
           found
           onely
           his
           own
           mistakes
           gave
           him
           occasion
           of
           scandall
           ;
           to
           this
           I
           answer
           that
           I
           cannot
           well
           answer
           any
           thing
           ,
           unlesse
           he
           had
           specified
           the
           points
           ,
           but
           I
           can
           say
           that
           there
           are
           many
           ,
           as
           picturing
           God
           the
           Father
           (
           which
           is
           generally
           thought
           lawfull
           ,
           and
           as
           generally
           practised
           )
           their
           
           offerings
           to
           the
           
             Virgin
             Mary
          
           (
           which
           onely
           differs
           frō
           the
           heresy
           of
           the
           
             Colliridians
          
           in
           that
           a
           candle
           is
           not
           a
           cake
           )
           their
           praying
           to
           Saints
           ,
           and
           beleeving
           
             de
             fide
          
           that
           they
           heare
           us
           ,
           though
           no-way
           made
           certaine
           that
           they
           doe
           so
           ,
           and
           many
           more
           which
           without
           any
           mistake
           of
           his
           might
           have
           given
           him
           occasion
           to
           be
           still
           scandalized
           ;
           for
           whereas
           he
           saith
           that
           these
           points
           were
           grounded
           upon
           the
           authority
           of
           the
           ancient
           Fathers
           ,
           which
           was
           refused
           as
           insufficient
           by
           Protestants
           ,
           I
           answere
           ,
           that
           none
           of
           these
           I
           name
           have
           any
           ground
           in
           the
           Ancientest
           ,
           nay
           ,
           the
           first
           is
           by
           them
           disallowed
           ,
           and
           if
           any
           other
           superstition
           of
           theirs
           have
           from
           them
           any
           ground
           ,
           yet
           they
           who
           depart
           from
           so
           many
           of
           the
           Ancients
           in
           severall
           opinions
           cannot
           by
           any
           reason
           be
           excused
           for
           retaining
           any
           errour
           ,
           because
           therein
           they
           have
           consent
           ,
           nor
           have
           the
           Protestants
           cause
           to
           receive
           it
           from
           them
           ,
           as
           a
           sufficient
           Apologie
           ,
           neither
           hath
           he
           to
           follow
           the
           Fathers
           rather
           then
           Protestants
           ,
           in
           a
           case
           in
           which
           not
           the
           persons
           ,
           but
           the
           reasons
           were
           to
           be
           considered
           :
           For
           when
           Saint
           
             Hierome
          
           was
           by
           this
           way
           both
           brought
           into
           ,
           and
           held
           in
           a
           strange
           errour
           ,
           though
           hee
           spake
           something
           like
           Master
           
             Mountagues
             patiaris
             me
             errare
             cum
             talibus
             ,
          
           suffer
           mee
           to
           erre
           with
           such
           men
           ,
           yet
           he
           could
           not
           obtain
           Saint
           
             Augustines
          
           leave
           ,
           who
           would
           not
           suffer
           him
           ,
           but
           answered
           their
           reasons
           ,
           and
           neglected
           their
           authorities
           .
        
         
           Fourteenthly
           ,
           Hee
           speaks
           of
           his
           Religion
           super-infusing
           loyalty
           ,
           and
           if
           he
           had
           onely
           said
           it
           destroyed
           ,
           or
           weakned
           it
           not
           ,
           I
           (
           who
           wish
           that
           no
           doubt
           of
           his
           alleageance
           may
           once
           enter
           his
           mind
           to
           whom
           we
           all
           owe
           it
           ,
           but
           professe
           my selfe
           his
           humble
           servant
           ,
           and
           no
           ways
           his
           enemie
           though
           his
           adversary
           )
           would
           then
           have
           made
           no
           answer
           ,
           but
           since
           he
           speaks
           as
           if
           Popery
           were
           the
           way
           to
           obedience
           ,
           I
           cannot
           but
           say
           ,
           that
           though
           no
           tenet
           of
           their
           whole
           Church
           (
           which
           I
           know
           )
           makes
           at
           all
           against
           it
           ,
           yet
           there
           are
           prevailing
           opinions
           of
           that
           side
           ,
           which
           are
           not
           fit
           to
           make
           good
           subjects
           ,
           when
           their
           King
           and
           
           they
           are
           of
           different
           perswasions
           .
           For
           besides
           that
           Cardinall
           
             D'Ossat
          
           (
           an
           Author
           which
           I
           know
           Master
           
             Mountague
          
           hath
           read
           ,
           because
           whosoever
           hath
           but
           considered
           state
           matters
           must
           be
           as
           wel
           skilled
           in
           him
           as
           any
           Priest
           in
           his
           Breviary
           )
           tels
           us
           that
           it
           is
           the
           
             Spaniards
          
           maxime
           ,
           that
           faith
           is
           not
           to
           be
           kept
           with
           Heretiks
           ,
           and
           more
           that
           the
           Pope
           intimated
           as
           much
           in
           a
           discourse
           intended
           to
           perswade
           the
           King
           of
           
             France
          
           to
           forsake
           the
           Queene
           of
           
             England
             ,
          
           he
           saies
           moreover
           speaking
           in
           an
           other
           place
           about
           the
           Marquizat
           of
           
             Saluces
             ,
          
           that
           they
           hold
           at
           
             Rome
          
           that
           the
           Pope
           to
           avoid
           a
           probable
           danger
           of
           the
           increasing
           of
           Heresie
           may
           take
           away
           a
           territory
           from
           the
           true
           owner
           and
           dispose
           of
           it
           to
           an
           other
           ,
           and
           many
           also
           defend
           that
           he
           hath
           power
           to
           depose
           a
           Hereticall
           Prince
           ,
           and
           of
           Heresie
           he
           makes
           himselfe
           the
           Judge
           :
           so
           that
           though
           I
           had
           rather
           my
           tongue
           should
           cleave
           to
           the
           roofe
           of
           my
           mouth
           ,
           then
           that
           I
           should
           deny
           that
           a
           Papist
           may
           be
           a
           good
           Subject
           ,
           even
           to
           a
           King
           whom
           he
           counts
           a
           Heretick
           ,
           since
           I
           verily
           believe
           that
           I
           my selfe
           know
           very
           many
           very
           good
           ,
           yet
           Popery
           is
           like
           to
           an
           ill
           aire
           ,
           wherein
           though
           many
           keep
           their
           healths
           ,
           yet
           many
           are
           infected
           (
           so
           that
           at
           most
           they
           are
           good
           subjects
           but
           during
           the
           Popes
           pleasure
           )
           and
           the
           rest
           are
           in
           more
           danger
           then
           if
           they
           were
           out
           of
           it
           .
        
         
           To
           conclude
           ,
           I
           believe
           that
           what
           I
           have
           said
           may
           at
           least
           serve
           (
           if
           he
           will
           descend
           to
           consider
           it
           )
           to
           move
           Master
           
             Moungue
          
           to
           a
           further
           search
           ,
           and
           for
           
             Memorandums
          
           in
           it
           ,
           which
           if
           he
           doe
           ,
           hee
           will
           be
           soone
           able
           to
           give
           as
           much
           better
           reasons
           for
           my
           conclusion
           (
           that
           such
           a
           visible
           Church
           neither
           need
           ,
           nor
           can
           be
           shewed
           )
           as
           his
           understanding
           is
           degrees
           above
           mine
           .
           I
           hope
           also
           by
           comparing
           the
           bodie
           of
           their
           beliefe
           ,
           and
           the
           ground
           of
           their
           authoritie
           ,
           that
           little
           that
           can
           be
           drawn
           out
           of
           the
           fourth
           of
           the
           
             Ephesians
             ,
          
           with
           the
           Myriads
           of
           contradiction
           in
           Transubstantion
           ,
           he
           will
           come
           to
           see
           that
           their
           pillars
           
           are
           too
           weake
           to
           hold
           up
           any
           building
           be
           it
           never
           so
           light
           ,
           and
           their
           building
           is
           too
           heavie
           to
           bee
           held
           up
           by
           any
           pillars
           bee
           they
           never
           so
           strong
           ,
           and
           trust
           he
           will
           returne
           to
           us
           whom
           he
           will
           then
           finde
           that
           hee
           hath
           causesly
           left
           ,
           if
           hee
           be
           (
           which
           I
           doubt
           not
           )
           so
           ingenuous
           ,
           as
           not
           to
           hold
           an
           opinion
           ,
           because
           he
           turn'd
           to
           it
           ,
           nor
           to
           stay
           ,
           onely
           because
           he
           went
           .
        
      
       
         
           Errata
           .
        
         
           
             Pag.
          
           30.
           
             line
             ult.
          
           for
           ,
           is
           greater
           of
           &c.
           
             read
             ,
          
           is
           more
           receivable
           which
           is
           given
           to
           the
           Scripture
        
         
           FINIS
           .
        
         
      
    
     
       
         Notes, typically marginal, from the original text
         
           Notes for div A51177e-1850
           
             Tom.
             9.
             
             An
             72.
             
             De
             fide
             &
             〈◊〉
             .
             2.
             lib.
             2.
             c.
             
          
           
             In
             6
             cap.
             Ioh.