A second letter to Father Lewis Sabran, Jesuite in answer to his reply. Gee, Edward, 1657-1730. 1688 Approx. 44 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 9 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2008-09 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A42576 Wing G460 ESTC R9551 12590129 ocm 12590129 63877 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A42576) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 63877) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 960:39) A second letter to Father Lewis Sabran, Jesuite in answer to his reply. Gee, Edward, 1657-1730. 16 p. Printed for Henry Mortlock ..., London : 1688. Reproduction of original in Union Theological Seminary Library, new York. Attributed to Edward Gee. cf. NUC pre-1956. Advertisement: p. 16. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Sabran, Lewis, 1652-1732. -- Reply of Lewis Sabran of the Society of Jesus to the answer given to his letter written to a peer of the Church of England by a nameless member of the same. Catholic Church -- England -- Controversial literature. 2007-01 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2007-02 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2007-04 Mona Logarbo Sampled and proofread 2007-04 Mona Logarbo Text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A Second Letter TO Father LEWIS SABRAN , Jesuite , IN ANSWER TO HIS REPLY . Imprimatur , hic Libellus cui Titulus ( A Second Letter to F. L. S. ) December the 2 d. 1687. Jo. Battely . LONDON , Printed for Henry Mortlock at the Phoenix in St. Paul's Church-yard . 1688. A Second Letter to Father Lewis Sabran Jesuite , in Answer to his Reply . Reverend Sir , Novemb. 30 th . 1687. I Was very glad to hear yesterday of your intentions of giving me an answer to the Letter I wrote to you five days ago ; I did expect I should find something extraordinary , and some reasons or arguments of strength sufficient to convince the world , that even the demonstrative argument from Isidore ought to be set aside , since you could produce evidences as strong and as positive on the other hand ; and therefore as soon as I heard it , I resolved with my self not to be obstinate in the defence of my charge against you , but fairly and honestly to own my mistake , if you did bring on your side any thing stronger and more rational than what had been produced against you . But when I this day had your Answer from the Press ; the first perusal of it sufficiently informed me , that you had not done that thing , which indeed my private reason ( I must confess ) did assure me that you could not , I mean that you had not given any thing of moment in defence of your self . One thing I must own I was surprised at , the great alteration in your style betwixt your two Letters . This is as blustring and abusive , as the other was calm ; you reflected in your Letter to the Honourable Lord on the insulting and scurrilous lauguage of the Hereticks , but for your self you said , far be it from me even to return a the like , we have no such custome , neither hath the Church of God : Truth ( say you ) would blush to be defended by such unwarrantable arms : but it seems your mind is altered since , and now Truth will not blush to be so defended , and you can make use of harsher words ( which others call insolent language ) in the defence b of Truth : but I must do you this justice to own , that you have not quitted the resolutions of the former Letter , since what you set your self so angryly to defend here is no Truth but a gross Errour , as I shall very quickly shew . You begin your Letter in a victorious stile , and reason good , since you say you have the Opinion of all men of sense that your Letter to the Peer of the Church of England hath cleared you sufficiently of the mistake I charged you with . I must confess I dare not deny what you say here , since I have not spoken with the hundredth part of the men of sense in the Town to know whether it be Truth that you write here : however thus far I dare speak , that I do not believe it , since I am afraid that by the ALL MEN of SENSE here is meant no more than SOME of your own party . It was not from an inconsiderate itch of Scribling ( as you word it c ) that I reflected upon that passage in your introduction to your Sermon at Chester . I was provoked to it from that passage's being so much cryed up , boasted of , and insisted upon as if it had been a ▪ most genuine and a most considerable Testimony ( about Praying to the Virgin Mary ) from St. Augustine : and therefore since I was quickly satisfied that the Sermon , out of which it was taken , was not St. Augustine's , I looked upon it as a duty I owed to the world , and particularly to the Nobility of the Church of England ( some of whom had been urged much with that passage ) to publish it to the whole Nation [ in that page that was empty at the end of my Book ] that that Sermon de Sanctis out of which it is taken , was not , nor could be St. Augustine's . The Reasons I used there have been the subject of this Letter-Controversie betwixt us , and though you be resolved never to take any [ farther ] notice of such unknown persons , who conceal their names , yet I am resolved to defend my first Letter to you , and I believe I shall convince the world in it , that you ought to make some other Reply than you hitherto have , to the Demonstrative Argument from Isidore . The first and least considerable Reason that I urged against the Sermon was from the Title and Subject of it . About this we have had the most ado , though I hinted in my Letter to you that the stress of the Controversie did not at all depend upon it . But you are resolved to insist upon this , and in your Reply you have marshal'd my reasonings for that proof first into a new Errour , next into a false Inference , then into a plain cheat and contradiction . These are very hard words , and therefore I come now to examine how I deserve them : 'T is an Errour ( say you ) that there was not in St. d Augustine's time a general pious Belief of the Blessed Virgin 's Assumption : You refer me for the proof of what you say there to your Letter to the Peer : well , I have looked into it , and am no more convinced by it yet , than I was by my first perusal of it . The Authours named in that Paragraph e you refer to are [ the Supposititious Sermon of ] St. Hierome , St. Hephonsus f , William Bishop of Paris , St. Bernard and others ▪ but these cannot be the men to shew the General pious Belief of the Assumption in St. Austin's time , since you say you find in them , that they doubted of ; or disbelieved g her [ the B. Virgin ] being assumed in Body into Heaven : and methinks these Fathers and others look like a fair argument to prove against your GENERAL pious belief in St. Austin's time . To pass them therefore , who are either not to the purpose here , or against your assertion ; there are but two Authours more in the Paragraph , St. Mellion's Sermon [ which in your Reply hath changed both its name , and is called St. Melitons h Book ] and Nicephorus : And now I would fain know of you , Sir , how either of these Authours prove what you assert a General pious Belief of the Assumption in St. Austin's time : as for Nicephorus , he lived not till almost a Thousand years after St. Austine , so that he is a most unfit Witness for such a purpose : but here you will tell me that Nicephorus is urged by you onely , to shew , that Juvenal Patriarch of Hierusalem proved the Truth of this Mystery to have been received of very Ancient Tradition before Marcian the Emperour . To this I answer , that Juvenal lived after St. Austine's time and therefore can be no Witness as to his time : but passing this , the Credit of all this story depends upon Nicephorus Callistus , who is of no Authority herein , not onely because he lived not till the fourteenth Century , but because he is a most fabulous Writer . I have not time to insist on or urge what Monsieur Launoy hath offered against this Story , especially what he says i about the silence of the Historians who lived in , near , or since that time down to Nicephorus , who is the first and onely Authour ( according to him ) that broached that fable about Juvenal and Marcian the Emperour . I have one argument to urge against your Juvenal , and that is , that it is impossible he could shew any such ancient Tradition for the Assumption , since it is granted that the Writers of the Church before him never mentioned any such thing , and which is more since , this very Doctrine about Assumption was condemned in the same Century in a Council at Rome by Gelasius Pope with 70 other Bishops . What I urge here concerns your Authour St. Melito , the supposititious book under whose name was condemned as Apocryphal . But pray , Sir , how do you prove to us that this Book under St. Melito's name was before St. Austine's time ? the first news we hear of it is not till above 60 years after St. Austine's time , and the same time that we hear of the Book , we hear of its being condemned as an Apocryphal thing : Yet I will grant to you ( what I do not believe ) that the book was older ; will any man of tolerable sense argue from this Book a General Pious Belief of the Assumption in St. Austine's time , when this very Book that taught it was condemned as Apocryphal at Rome in the same Century k ? I cannot but stay here to wonder a little at your saying there , that IF this Sermon be not S. Melito's Genuine work , it must be of some other Authour nigh those times . I can be no longer angry that you should stand up so obstinately for the 35 th . Sermon de Sanctis , when I find you at most but dubious whether that Book ( for so I would call it ) under Melito's name be genuine or no ; Whereas all the men of Learning in the Church have long since thrown it up as spurious and Apocryphal ; I have already shown how it was condemned by a Pope in Council as Apocryphal twelve hundred years ago : Not long after that our Venerable Bede fell most severely upon it , and lays to the charge of the Authour of it Ignorance , and downright lying : so that De La Bigne was about striking it out of his Bibliotheca Patrum ; but though he satisfied himself with some reasons for his continuing it there , yet this is his Conclusion about it ; notwithstanding what hath been said above , it is l certain that this Book is falsely ascribed to S. Melito , that it is Apocryphal , and of no Authority , and to be altogether rejected for its mixtures , [ of Truth and falshood . ] He then tells us that the Spanish Index Expurgatorius have ordered the whole of the Book from the 8 th . Chapter to be expunged : and I can assure you that the History of the Assumption is the subject of those Chapters which the Index hath ordered to be struck out : And yet you , Sir , after all this ( and more which I could add ) are not satisfied of that Book 's being spurious : Which thing among Learned Men I am sure will not add any Lustre to one who writes himself of the Society of Jesus , but will satisfie the World , what sort of an Adversary I have to deal with . Having shewn that your Melito and your Nicephorus are of no Credit ▪ and there being no other Authours offered for my Conviction , I pray Sir , where and how have you shewn the General pious belief of the Virgin 's Assumption in St. Austin 's time : And what ground had you for your charge of a new Errour in me , when you are not able to evince the thing ; all see at least that you did not doe it there . The next charge is a false Inference ; my words upon which you ground it are these , if the Day of Assumption do not ever signifie the day of a Saints Death , why may not this be the exception ? Upon this you charge me with inferring that if Assumption do not always signifie the Death of a Saint , therefore here it may signifie the Corporal Assumption of the blessed Virgin , therefore it doth . I own that this last , [ therefore it doth ] is not onely a false but a silly inference , but I am sure it is not mine , I onely said , why may not this be the Exception . I appeal to my words just put down , and to all Scholars whether this be ingenuous dealing ; so that your second charge is fallen . But before you pass to your third great charge , you accuse me of a wilfull mistake in making you say that in the ancient Writings Feast or Day of Assumption when applyed to Saints did onely almost always signifie the day of their Death . Well , Sir , and did not you say so your self in your first Letter ; is not the almost of your own putting in there . These are the very words you used there ; as if Feast or Day of Assumption in the Writings of Ancients , did ALMOST EVER signifie any thing else but the m Day of a Saints Death . I must confess , Sir , that I thought I had to doe with one who would admit of his own words , and not charge them upon his Adversary , as if they were his ; with one that understood English : but I must now take my Lot , what ever it is . Your next charge is of a Cheat in endeavouring to insinuate that the 35th Sermon did not speak of the Virgin 's Death , but of her Assumption in the Vulgar sense of the word . But wherein is the Cheat , I put down there the very words of the Sermon ; well but , say you , Assumption here does only signifie her Death , and you quote a passage of the Sermon for it , which is very accurately translated : I am not throughly satisfied of this , and my reason is this , because as I was , before I saw your Letter , satisfied that there was not a necessity of taking Assumption here in the Vulgar sense , so I was fully assured that the Authour of the Sermon hath determined for neither sense , but hath left it doubtfull whether she were assumed Corporally or no n . You next take me to task about the mistake you made in quoting the 14th Sermon de Sanctis ; and you advise me to be less rash in my Rhetorical Declamations . But I cannot see my fault here : You did quote the 14th Sermon de Sanctis , I went thither , and when I could not find it there , I lookt into those Sermons I mentioned in my Letter , and not finding it in any of them , I concluded it to be your mistake , and did believe that some body had imposed upon you : I afterwards looked over all the Sermons de Sanctis , and not finding it any where , I thought you had been deceived , and I hope it was no fault to tell you so , as I then did . But you will have it that I was resolved to mistake you , that I might fansie something to object against . There are ( say you ) but two 14th Sermons de Sanctis , that of the first ancient Collection , and that in the other Compilation of Seventeen made by the Divines of Paris . I am not , Sir , to be frighted or born down with dint of Confidence . I say that it is false that there are two 14th Sermons de Sanctis ; the Sermons de Sanctis are a Body of one and fifty Sermons , and when any one talks of or quotes such or such a Sermon de Sanctis , we know readily whither to go . The Sermons added by the Divines of Paris are not intituled de Sanctis either in the Louvain Edition that I use , or in the Benedictine : And therefore when the Benedictines put one of the Paris Sermons down in their Volume they tell us in the Margin that it is the 5th or 7th , for example , inter additos à Parisiensibus , whereas when they put down one of the Sermons de Sanctis , they always tell us there that it is the 24th or 42d , for example de Sanctis : So that you cannot avoid seeing how you have run your self into a new mistake by resolving to defend an old one . I am afraid you are not so much versed in St. Austin , as your Sermon made shew of , and therefore I will give you this piece of advice , that when you meet with St. Austin's Sermons de Sanctis quoted in your Authors , you would not quickly swallow , but would examine a little , and be carefull , since of the 51 Sermons de Sanctis the Benedictines have rejected one and forty as spurious , and none of St. Austins . We are now come to the next Argument from the Manuscripts against the Sermon . I charged you with having said nothing to the Benedictine Manuscripts which give us no Author of that Sermon , you tell us that my charge herein is ridiculous ; and you indeavour to illustrate your answer , or rather to answer by a Similitude taken out of the Law Courts ; but so ill applyed as nothing worse , for what is possession , in this case , must a Book always belong to such an Author , because once in his Possession ; it seems the world have wronged Arnobius in vindicating Octavius to its true Master ; what say you , was it not in his Possession ; did not the Manuscripts give it to Arnobius ? or how came he to have it ? what if some Manuscripts name no Author for it ? This how ridiculous soever is all you would say here ; and yet you pity my weakness and pass it by , because you love , not to insult on an erring Adversaries patent mistake : forgetting in the mean time that while you would make what I say ridiculous , you fall foul upon those Benedictines of Paris ( whom I had it from ) whose Learning is as much known as admired , and the world too much indebted to them for their excellent pains upon St. Augustine , whom they have published , and upon St. Ambrose whom they are now a fitting for the Press , to think their arguments ridiculous , because you think them so . You next charge me with Disingenuity and real forgery in insinuating , That this Sermon bears not his ( St. Austine 's ) name either in the Manuscripts used by the Louvain Divines , or by the Benedictines , when I own my self that the Louvain Divines onely say it is not in several of their Manuscripts . Would any one but look into that Paragraph of my Letter , whence you quote this , he will easily see that the Louvain Manuscripts I speak of here are those that intituled this Sermon to Fulbertus . Those Manuscripts that gave it to Fulbertus are those I had in my eye there , when I said that the Manuscripts used by the Louvain Divines , give it to Fulbertus instead of St. Austine . I did not say all their Manuscripts gave it against St. Austine , but that the Manuscripts spoken of at the beginning of the Paragraph did give it for Fulbertus . You next ask me whether I do not egregiously destroy my own cause in appealing to most ancient Manuscripts , [ my appeal was to the most as well as to the best Manuscripts ] and the known stile of the Author . I think , Sir , that I do not , and shall think so till you shew me not only that the stile of this Sermon is purely St. Austine's but that it is attributed to him in the MOST , and BEST Manuscripts . These things you should regularly have done here , but instead of offering at one word of this nature for my Conviction : You think you answer me enough in asking me whether St. Thomas was not better acquainted with St. Austine's style , than I dare presume to be : and whether he had not as great a plenty , He and all his Contemporaries , and of fresher Manuscripts ? [ here must be added , for not onely the Antithesis , but the English requires it , as I have . ] But had you added this as the style requires it , every one would have seen the great weakness of it : I have not onely told you , but proved it to you in my first Letter , that Thomas Aquinas was no Critick : But as to your questions , you cannot be ignorant that I did not rely on my own ijudgment , or pretend to have MSS. by me . What I have said about these things hath the assistance not onely of the Benedictine , but Louvain Divines , and the Questions you put to me do as much concern them as me , nay more : for they had those MSS. I insisted on , and therefore for the future pray lay your accusation right ; and since the Louvain Divines are in their Graves , write a sharp reproof to those impudent Benedictines , who have dared to understand St. Augustin's style as well or better than Thomas Aquinas , and have had the face to pretend to such MSS. as do oblige them to deprive St. Austin of that 35 th Sermon de Sanctis . After all this skirmishing hitherto , we are arrived at the Argument from S. Isidore . I urged that it was certain the 35 th . Sermon de Sanctis could not be St. Austin's , since Isidore was quoted in it , who lived not till two hundred years after St. Austin . Your answer was , that the Isidore quoted in the Sermon could not be he that lived in the Seventh Century , and your proof was from a passage in the Sermon it self , in which the Authour of the Sermon said that , In our time no Authour among the Latins can be found [ is found , saith the Sermon ] who treating of the blessed Virgin 's Death , hath been positive and express , or as I shall translate it , to have spoken any thing expresly concerning her Death ; whereas no one ( you add ) could be ignorant of what so famous an Authour as S. Gregory of Tours had in his History plainly and fully written in the sixth Age. This I answered in my last , by telling you that the Authour of this Sermon might either not know , or not regard Gregory of Tours ; and urged the instance of St. Bernard , who notwithstanding Gregory's most full account of the Assumption , either doubted or disbelieved it ; upon which I concluded that St. Bernard as well as the Authour of the 35th Sermon de Sanctis did either not know , or not regard Gregory of Tours . Against this plain and full answer you have made several objections : first you say , no one could be ignorant of what Gregory of Tours had written in the sixth Age ; This is , Sir , affirming without proving ; and though a contrary affirmation is sufficient against such a proof , yet I gave you there not onely the Instance of the Authour of this Sermon , which I can certainly prove to have been written much after Gregory's time , but the Instance of St. Bernard . I will add but one more to them , which I question not will satisfie all reasonable persons . Isidore of Sevil lived in the beginning of the seventh Century , and is allowed by all to have lived at the beginning of it , and to have been not onely near Gregory of Tour's time , but near his Countrey , and therefore to have had the best opportunities of knowing this famous History , you so much insist on : and yet these are his words at the end of his account of the Life of the Virgin Mary ; no History informs us particulary that Mary suffered Martyrdom by the Sword , nor is her Death ANY WHERE READ of , nor her Burial o to be found any where . As this Instance shews that Isidore was ignorant of Gregory of Tour's writing [ and therefore no wonder that others were , who lived farther from his time , ] so it holds as strong against the forged Melito and St. Hierom : and shews that Isidore was equally ignorant of them all , or looked upon them as so very fabulous and Apocryphal , that not one of them did deserve the name of an History . And therefore as to the Equivocation that I make Fulbertus guilty of , when I make him say No-body writ of such a Subject positively , onely meaning that what was written was not true ; I must tell you , Sir , that you wrong me very much in this passage ; your onely meaning that what was written was not true , is a very great misrepresentation of my words : I did insist there upon Fulbertus 's not knowing , as well as not regarding Gregory of Tours . I need onely to put down my own expressions used in that Letter to let the world see how I am used by you . My words were these in relation to Gregory of Tours ; It is no errour to suppose the Authour of that Sermon had never seen Gregory of Tour's book , and therefore might have that expression concerning no Latin Authour treating of the Virgin Mary's Assumption : or we may very well suppose that if he had , he reckons his Story among those Apocryphal ones which were p THEN WRIT , but REJECTED by the Church of God. Whosoever will compare these expressions of mine and your charge , will easily see that there was no equivocation on my part but a great deal of misrepresenting on yours . Your next charge against me is as true ; and you tell me that you never said ( as I intimate ) that St. Bernard disbelieved the blessed Virgin 's Assumption . I cannot but wonder at such strange behaviour ; whether you or I am the guilty person here , will quickly be seen by putting down both our words about this in the two Letters , which I will set one against the other , that all may see the Truth or falshood of this accusation . F. Sabran's Expressions in the Letter to a Peer , p. 7. — St. Bernard and others writ Sermons on our B. Lady's Assumption ; although in those very Orations we find they DOUBTED OF , or DISBELIEVED her being assumed in Body into Heaven . My Expressions in my Letter to F. Sabran , p. 7. — and not in St. Bernard , who so very long after either DOUBTED or DISBELIEVED the Story of the ASSUMPTION [ in the vulgar corporal sense . ] It is time to return to the business of St. Isidore ; you had said in your Letter to the Peer ▪ that there were several Isidores before St. Austin , and that the Isidore quoted here in the 35 th Sermon must be one of them : to which I answered , that though there were never so many Isidores before St. Austin , yet can you , or dare you offer to shew that any of them were Writers ? All the Answer you give in your Reply to this is , that it is childish . But is it , Sir , really so ? the Isidore quoted was a Writer ; I demanded of you to shew that any Isidore before St. Austin was a Writer ▪ I do not wonder at your being disordered at this Question , though all the World cannot but see how very fair and reasonable : but the mischief is , neither St. Hierom , nor Bellarmine make mention of any such a Writer before St. Austin : and therefore it was the wisest , because the best answer that could be given to say mine was childish . But that I might drive you from so weak a pretence , I told you that we are certain that the Isidore quoted in the Sermon is He that lived in the Seventh Century ; and that if you did look into the Louvain Edition , when you wrote your Letter to the Peer , you could not have miss'd seeing what Book of his the Passage is taken from . Your Reply to this is very short , you say it was answered in your first Letter ; what ? answered before it was objected , I said not a syllable in my Postscript , nor you in your Letter to the Lord about what Book of St. Isidore this passage is taken from , or that the Book was mentioned in , and might be seen in the Louvain Edition ; and yet you tell me that you have answered this in that Letter . But I easily see what it is that you mean by the Answer ; it is , I suppose , that which you next insist on in the Reply , that the citation of Isidore could not be made out to be taken out of the Book cited by the Louvain Divines , the doubt there proposed being obvious , having been made q before St. Austin 's time by St. Epiphanius . I would fain know , Sir , what we must gather hence , is it , that because the doubt was made by Epiphanius before St. Austin's time , therefore it was not made by Isidore , who lived so long after St. Augustin's time : or is it because the doubt was made then by Epiphanius , therefore it could not be made by Isidore afterwards . Either I see no Logick , or no sense here ; and certainly , Sir , it is neither inconsistent , nor impossible , nor improbable that Isidore should in the seventh Century make such a doubt about the words of Simeon , as St. Epiphanius had made in the fourth . But all this illogical fluttering is to no purpose , our debate is not about the doubt it self , or the sense or words of the passage , but whence the passage it self is taken ; out of what Authour , and out of what Book the words in the 35 th Sermon de Sanctis are borrowed ; and here , that I might put an end to the Excursions about things of no moment to the Controversie , and fix you , I did refer you to the Book , Chapter and Page in Isidore out of which the passage in the Sermon is taken . But to this I find not a syllable of answer made , nor the least notice taken of it ; so that I should have suspected that your half hour had been out , which you were willing r to cast away upon answering me , and therefore that you would say no more to me , did I not see that you had time still for a whole Page after this . Whatever was the occasion of this Neglect , whether it was because you had not one word to reply to such a demonstrative Evidence , or for some other Reason , I will not trouble my self to guess ; I intend not to be put off thus : and therefore I am resolved that you shall see the Passage in Isidore , and before it , what the Benedictines as well Louvain Divines have said about the 35 th . Sermon de Sanctis , which is the Subject of the Debate betwixt us . The Louvain Divines having thrown this Sermon into their Appendix as spurious , and having placed i● the 83 d in their Appendix give this account of it . This Sermon was the 35th . de Sanctis , but in f very many Manuscript Copies it is attributed to Fulbertus Carnotensis . It quotes Isidore out of his Work concerning the Life and Death of the Saints . The Benedictines of Paris in their Edition lately come over have also placed it in their Appendix , as none of St. Austin's and their Judgment about it is thus delivered there : [ This Sermon is the Work ] of some uncertain Authour ▪ who quotes t Isidore , who is MUCH LATER than S●… ▪ Austin , out of his Work concerning the Life and Death of the Saints . We have it in our Manuscripts without the name of any Authour : but in very many of the MSS. of the Louvain Divines , as they themselves observe it is attributed to Fulbertus Carnotensis . Having now given you , Sir , the Judgment of the Louvain Divines as well as of the Benedictines in their own words . I will next produce the Passage as it is in Isidore himself , and as it is in the Sermon ; that so you may see which Isidore it is about whom so much noise hath been made : The Words in the 35 th . Sermon de Sanctis . H●nc & Isidorus , Incertum est , inquit , per hoc dictum , utrum gladium Spiritus , an gladium dixerit persecutionis . Serm. 208. in Append. Tom. 5. p. 344. Edit . Paris . 1683. The Words of Isidore himself . Quod quidem incertum est , utrum pro Martyrii gladio dixerit an pro Verbo Dei valido et acuto prae omni gladio ancipiti . Isidorus Hispai . de Vita & Morte Sanctorum c 68. p. 168. Edit . Paris . 1580. I can see no place left now for Cavil , but this one , That the Words here put down are not exactly the same in the Sermon , and in the Book : But such a Cavil will neither be offered at , nor admitted by any Person of Learning , since every learned Man knows that it is the frequent practice of those who cite other Mens Works , sometimes to keep exactly to the words of the Authour cited , sometimes to contract them , and sometimes to give onely the Sense of them : The Authour of this Sermon is an instance of this last Method , who tho' he hath contracted and partly changed the Words of Isidore , yet he hath given us the Sense of them ; which no body can deny to be that set down in the Sermon , That it is uncertain whether by the Sword which Simeon said should pierce through the Virgin Mary 's Soul , is meant the Sword of the Spirit , or the Sword of Persecution . I hope Sir , that after such invincible evidence against the Sermon 's being St. Austin's , you will at last forsake your wilfull mistake ; if such Arguments cannot perswade you , it must be because you are resolved not to be perswaded herein . I must , before I end this , take notice of your last Charge against me of imposing upon unthinking Readers when I represent that your Assertion was false , when you said that the Divines of Louvain did assert to St. Austin the 18th . Sermon de Sanctis . I do own my words there , and since you will force me , I do affirm it a second time that Your Assertion is false : and my farther Reason for it I will now give you here . The Divines of Louvain in their Censura generalis [ which you may find on the back of their Title page to the Tenth Tome of St. Austin's Works ] have distinguished all the Sermons of that Volume into three sorts : in the first sort they reckon those Sermons which did certainly appear to be St. Austin's , and them they put in the Volume with St. Austin's name before them . They next reckon those Sermons which are certainly not his , these Sermons they cast into the Appendix as spurious : their third sort are those which are doubtfull , which they leave in the Volume , but without St. Austin's name to them to distiuguish them from the certain ones . With this information therefore we will look for the 18 th . Sermon , we find it indeed in the Volume , but without St. Austin's name to it ; so that it is certain from this very Circumstance that the Louvain Divines looked upon it as dubioas , and therefore did not prefix St. Austin's name to it , but put that note before it which I mentioned : I need add no more to so plain a proof ; as to your offering me Natalis Alexandre's Opinion , I have here proved that if he did assert the same thing , he was then as much mistaken as you . But pray , Sir , how come you to urge me with N. Alexandre ? I had thought you had known that you are excommunicate sine ulla alia declaratione , if you either read or kept his Books . You lastly put me in mind of the Business about Invocation , and your Challenge and Charge thereupon : I will be as good as my word , and will undertake that , as soon as this Controversie is either ended or dropt . You are so angry at parting that I cannot but take notice of it ; and therefore will be carefull to avoid a thing so indecent . If I have but given you hard Arguments for your hard Words , I have gained my Design . I am , Reverend Sir , Your Friend and Servant in all Christian Offices . Advertisement . THE same day that F. Sabran's Reply to my last Letter was published , there came out a pretended Letter from a Dissenter to the Divines of the Church of England , &c. wherein I am accused of being a Papist . I am sufficiently certain that it came out of the same Printer's hands that F. Sabran's Reply did , and that it is from a Popish hand . I do here promise the World a speedy Vindication of my self from that Calumny , wherein I will shew that the Authour of that Letter is as good at Misrepresentations , as at stealing a Nubes Testium out of Natalis Alexandre . FINIS . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A42576-e200 a Letter to a Peer , pag. 9. b Reply , p. ● . c Reply , p. 2. d Reply , p. 3. e Letter to a Peer , p. 7. f I can meet with no Authour of this name either in your or our Criticks . I suppose you mean St Ildephonsus ; if you did , you should surely have corrected in your Reply the errour in your Letter . g Letter to a Peer p. 7. h Reply , p. 3. i Launoii de Controversia super exscribendo Paris . Ecclesiae Martyrologio exorta Judicium . Paris . 1671. p. 90. k Liber qui appellatur Transitus , id est , Assumptio Sanctae Mariae , apocryphus . Concil . Rom. I. sub Gelasio , An. Dom. 494. in Tom. 4. Concil . p. 1264. edit . Cossar . l Biblioth . Patrum T. 7. p. 580. Edit . Par. 1624. m Letter to a Peer , p. 7. You have twice translated in this short passage Catholica Historia the Catholick Church . n Vera autem de ejus Assumptione sententia haec esse probatur ut secundum Apostolum , sive in corpore , sive extra corpus Ignorantes , assumptam super Angelos eam esse credamus . Sermo 35. de Sanctis . o Specialiter tamen nulla docet Historia Mariam gladii animadversione peremptam , quia nec obitus USPIAM legitur , dum tamen nec reperiatur sepultura . Isidorus Hispal . de Vita & Morte SS . num . 68. p. 168. Edit . Paris 1580. p Letter to F. Sabran , p. 7. q Reply , p. 7. r Reply , p. 1. f Fuit , 35. de Sanctis , sed in plerijque Manuscriptis exemplari●us tribuitur Fulberto Carnotensi Epi●copo citat autem Isidorum ex opere de Vita et obitu Sanctorum . Append. ad Tom. 10. Augustini p. 631. Edit . C●l●● . Agripp . 1616. t 〈…〉 doris qui multum Augustino re●entiorem Isidorum ●x Opere de Vita & Obitu Sa●●●do●●am In nostris Codi●ibus M S. M S. habetur ab●que nomine au●●oris . At 〈◊〉 Lovaniensium pleri●que ut 〈…〉 an t , Manuscriptis 〈…〉 ur Fulberto Epi●copo Carnotenti Praef. 〈◊〉 2●8 . in Append. Tom. 5. p. 343. Edit . Benedict . Paris . 1683.