Full and easie satisfaction which is the true and safe religion in a conference between D. a doubter, P. a papist, and R. a reformed Catholick Christian : in four parts ... / by Richard Baxter. Baxter, Richard, 1615-1691. 1674 Approx. 400 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 106 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2006-02 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A26931 Wing B1272 ESTC R15922 12544878 ocm 12544878 63024 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A26931) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 63024) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 305:7) Full and easie satisfaction which is the true and safe religion in a conference between D. a doubter, P. a papist, and R. a reformed Catholick Christian : in four parts ... / by Richard Baxter. Baxter, Richard, 1615-1691. [24], 189 p. Printed for Nev. Simmons ..., London : 1674. First ed. Cf. NUC pre-1956. Reproduction of original in Union Theological Seminary Library, New York. (from t.p.) I. The true stating of our difference -- II. The true easie and full justification of the reformed or Protestant religion -- III. The Protestants reasons and charges against popery enumerated -- IV. The first charge, viz. against transubstantiation made good. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. 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Protestantism. 2005-07 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2005-10 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-11 Judith Siefring Sampled and proofread 2005-11 Judith Siefring Text and markup reviewed and edited 2006-01 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion Full and Easie SATISFACTION WHICH IS THE TRUE AND SAFE RELIGION . In a CONFERENCE Between D. A DOUBTER , P. A PAPIST , and R. A REFORMED CATHOLICK CHRISTIAN . In Four Parts : I. The true stating of our Difference , and opening what each Religion is . II. The true easie and full Justification of the Reformed or Protestant Religion . III. The Protestants Reasons and Charges against Popery , enumerated . IV. The first Charge , viz. Against Transubstantiation made good : In which Popery is proved to be the SHAME OF HUMANE NATURE , notoriously contrary to SENSE , REASON , SCRIPTURE and TRADITION , or the Judgement of the Antient and the Present Church ; devised by Satan to expose Christianity to the Scorn of Infidels . By Richard Baxter . London , Printed , for Nev. Simmons , at the Princes Arms in St. Pauls Church-yard . 1674. and still continueth so to do . And while I can say , that I know of no Nobleman living who hath read more of my Writings than You have done , all that know the End of Writing , will consent , that there is no Noble Name which I should prefer . And as I long ago read in the Learned Spanhemius's Dedication of his Dubia Evangelica p. 3. to You ( well joyned with the famous Usher ) the predication of Your Judicium supra aetatem maturum , rerum omnium cognitione subactum pectus , and that as attested by the Illustrious Duke of Rohane , the Most Sagacious Arbiter of ingenies ; And years and experience have been long adding to Your knowledge : Being not a stranger to the Truth of this my self , I have great reason to be Ambitious to stand right in Your esteem : ( For who reverenceth the Judgement of ignorant Readers ? Or doth not reverence the Judgement of the Wise ? ) And therefore to give You an account of my self and of this writing ; Since I overgrew that Religion which is taken up most on humane trust , by increasing knowledge I increased mens displeasure ; and my judgement not falling just into the mold of any Sect among Church-dividers , there is scarce any Sect which doth not , according to their various interests , signifie their displeasure . Some only by Magisterial Censures ; more credibly acquainting the world , what they are themselves , than what I am , or what is my judgement . But from others I take a meer slander for Clemency , and as Philostratus saith , de Dicto Phavorini ) Et dum Socratis cicutam non bibam , aereâ privari statuâ non laedit . Simple Christianity is my Religion : I determine to know nothing but Christ Crucified ( and Glorified . ) And I am past all doubt , that till simple Christianity become the terms of Church-Unity and Concord , the Church will never see Unity or Concord , which shall prove universal or durable . So certain am I , that the Wits of the Learned , much less of the Community of vulgar Christians , will never arrive at the stature , of Concord , in numerous and difficult points : Nor the marvellous diversity of Educations , occasions , temperatures and capacities , be ever united in any thing but what is plain and simple . And as Certain am I , that the Universal Conscience of true believers will never unite , in any thing which is not evidently divine . And yet as certain am I , that the forsaking of the determination of the Holy Ghost and the Apostles , Acts 15.28 . and of Pauls Decision , Rom. 14. & 15. hath been the Engine of Church-Divisions and many calamitous distractions to this day : And that that blessed Prince who must have the honour and comfort of beginning the true healing and Concord of the Churches , must pare off all their superfluities , and leave them at best among their things indifferent , and unite them on the terms of simple Christianity . And as to Popery I have certainly found , that the Cross Interests and Passions of Disputers have made us ( though really too distant ) to seem commonly about many Doctrinals more distant than indeed we are : And that it had been better with us , if such men as judicious Ludov. le Blank , had had the stating of our Controversies at the first , that differing words and methods might not have passed with either side for damnable errors in the faith . I mean in the points of fore-knowledge , predestination , providence , predetermination , concurse , original sin , free-will , universal Redemption , sufficient Grace , effectual Grace , the nature of Faith , Justification , Sanctification , Merit , Good Works , Certainty of Justification , and of Salvation , Perseverance , &c. For my knowing this to be true , I am censured by those on one extream , as too favourable to the Papists ( being indeed an Enemy to injury , calumny , uncharitableness or cruelty to any in the world . ) But I am much more displeasing to the Roman party ; Because I know , that One man is naturally uncapable of being the Monarch of all the world : That the King of Rome ( as the Geographia Nubiensis calls him ) was never by Christ made King of Kings and Lord of Lords : That he never was , nor can be a Pastor at the Antipodes , and over all the Earth , or as far as Drake and Candish did Navigate : That it 's a sorry Argument , [ Monarchy is the best Government : Ergo , An universal Monarchy is best : ] That the Government setled in Nature and Scripture , is for Princes to rule Churchmen and all , by the Sword , and the Pastors of all particular Churches , to rule their Congregations by the Church-Keys , that is , by the Word , using Synods for due concord and correspondency : And this much will do better than all the stir that the Clergies Ambition hath made in the world . I know that the Pope standeth on no better a foundation than the other four Patriarchs : And that he was but the chief Prelate or Patriarch in one Empire , as the Archbishop of Canterbury is in England ; And that the Greek Church never took his Primacy in that one Empire to be of Divine Right : For if they had , they had never set up the Patriarch of Constantinople against him , who never claimed his Primacy as jure Divino . I know that the great Council of Chalcedon decreed , Act. 16. Bin. 734. [ We following alwayes the definitions of the holy Fathers and the Canon , have our selves also defined the same things , concerning the Priviledges of the same Most Holy Church of Constantinople , New Rome ; For to the Seat of Old Rome because of the Empire of that City , the Fathers consequently gave the Priviledges : And the one hundred and fifty Bishops most beloved of God , being moved with the same intention , have given equal Priviledges to the Most Holy Seat of New Rome : Reasonably Judging that the City adorned with the Empire and Senate , shall enjoy equal Priviledges with Old Regal Rome . ] I know that their late Bishop of Chalcedon saith ( against Bishop Bramhall , Survey , pag. 69. ) [ To us it sufficeth , that the Bishop of Rome is St. Peters Successor ; and this all Fathers testifie . But whether he be so jure Divino vel humano is no point of faith . Vid. Bellarm. 1.2 . de Pont. l. 12. And Holden Analys . fid . l. 1. c. 9. p. 161. Multa sunt quae traditione universa firmiter innituntur ( puta S. Petrum fuisse Romae ) quae revelata non sunt ; ideoque ab articulorum fidei Catholicae numero excluduntur . I know that there never was such a thing as a true Universal Council in the world ( unless Christ and his Apostles were such ) ; nor ever must , or will , or can be . I know that they were called Universal but as to one Empire : and that Emperours called them together , who had nothing to do without that Empire ; and that ( unless accidentally any inconsiderable number ) no Churches out of the Empire were summoned , or sent their Bishops thither : Which needs no other proof than the knowledge of the limits of the Roman Empire , and the Notitiae Episcopatùum , and the Names subscribed to each Council in Binnius and the rest . I know that long ago their Raynerius said ( Cont. Waldens . Catal. in Biblioth . Patrum Tom. 4. p. 773. ) [ The Churches of the Armenians , and Ethiopians , and Indians , and the rest which the Apostles converted , are not under the Church of Rome . ] And that Godignus and others make no doubt but the Abassines had the faith from the dayes of St. Matthew and the Eunuch . I know that Theodoret. Histor . Sanct. Patr. c. 1. saith , [ James the Bishop of Nisibis came to the Synod of Nice ; for Nisibis then obeyed the Roman Empire . ] Nothing can be more plain . I know that Jacob. de Vitriaco ( and others ) say ( Hist . Orient . c. 77. ) that [ the Churches of the Easterly parts of Asia alone exceeded in number the Christians either of the Greek or Latin Churches ] : And that Brochardus that lived at Jerusalem saith , that [ those called Schismaticks by us are far better men than those of the Roman Church . ] And to perswade the Kings of other Kingdoms , that the necessary way of Church-Union , is to unite all their Subject-Churches under the Patriarchs of another Empire , is no wiser than to tell all the world that they must be under the Bishop of Canterbury . I know that it was long ere Our antient Britains , and especially Your Scots , would so much as eat with the Roman Clergy , ( as Beda sheweth . ) And I know that their Melch. Canus saith , ( Loc. Com. cap. 7. fol. 201. ) [ That not only the Greeks , but almost all the rest of the Bishops of the whole world , have fought to destroy the priviledges of the Church of Rome ; And indeed they had on their side both the Arms of Emperours and the greater number of Churches : And yet they could never prevail to abrogate the power of the One Pope of Rome . ] Was this Pope then ( or the Roman Church ) Universal ? Besides that , to this day , they are but about the third or fourth part of the Christian world . And I know that General Councils are their Religion : and what the General approved Council at Lateran sub Innoc. 3. hath Decreed against Temporal Lords and their Dominions , and absolving of their Subjects from their Oaths of Fidelity : Besides what Greg. 7. hath said in his Concil . Rom. of his power to take down and set up Emperours . The knowing of these things , maketh me taken for their enemy . And their Image of Worship in an unknown Tongue , with their Bread-Worship and multitude of ludicrous deceitful toyes , are things which my soul can never be reconciled to : Much less to that renunciation of humanity which hereafter I detect , in the following Treatise . And having given You this Account of my self , I add as to this Treatise , 1. It grieved me to hear that so many refused the Parliaments Declaration against Transubstantiation : And I desired to shew them what it is . 2. Instead of joyning with those who talk much of the danger of Popery in the Land ( to keep it out , ) I thought it better to publish the Reasons which satisfie me against it , and leave the success of all to God. 3. And having occasion to re-print the First Part of my Key for Catholicks , with Corrections , instead of the Name before prefixed , ( of one whose face I never saw , nor ever had a word from , but ignorantly endeavoured to have provoked him to do good ) I thought Your Name fittest to be gratefully substituted , who were the first then that checked my imprudent temerity . Though I was not so vain , as to expect of late in your multitude of greater business , that You should read over my more tedious Writings , I despair not but You may find leisure in perusing this , to see that I have prefixed Your Name to nothing , but what Sense and Reason and Religion do avow . And so Craving Your Pardon for the boldness and tediousness of this Address , I rest , Your Graces humble much obliged Servant , Richard Baxter . August 27. 1673. TO THE READER . THis Dialogue cometh not to you , from an apprehension of any extraordinary excellency of it , as if it did much more than is already done : but as extorted by mens necessity ; 1. Because so many ignorantly turn Papists of late ; 2. And some are pleased to Say ( I dare not say , To Think ) that it is long of men in my condition ; 3. And it is the Art of the Papists ( which our vanity encourageth ) to seek to bring the old Books into oblivion ( which are unanswerable ) and to call still for new . The intended Use of this is , 1. To tell those that will dispute with a Papist , on what terms and in what order to proceed , lest they be cheated into a snare . 2. To teach the Ignorant Doubters truly to understand , wherein the difference between us and the Papists doth indeed consist ; that the talk of Sectaries Calling that which displeaseth them , Popery , nor the scandal of our real or seeming divisions , may not delude them , nor Papists puzzle them by putting them to prove every word in our thirty nine Articles or other Writings . 3. To Resolve all that will be Resolved , by Senses , Reason , Scripture , or the Judgement and Tradition of the Church . Of the multitude of Reasons against Popery enumerated , I have here made good but one , by a special disputation ; because I would not make the Book too big . The rest I shall easily prove in another Volume , if greater work and shortness of life do not hinder it ; ( which I fully expect . ) And lest I have no more opportunity to answer their Charges against us on the other side , I have reprinted and added ( Corrected ) the first part of my Key for Catholicks , where it is long ago done , and never answered . There is extant one Piece of theirs against me , unanswered , called , Mr. Johnson's Rejoynder about the Visibility of the Church : which I seriously profess I have left unanswered , as utterly unworthy of my precious Time , till I have no greater matter to do , which I hope will never be . And he that will well study his opening of the terms in the latter end , will see to how pitiful a case they are reduced . I conclude with this solemn Profession , That I am satisfied of the truth of what I write , and must dye ere long in the faith which I here profess , and lay my hopes of endless happiness on no other way : And that I would joyfully receive any Saving Truth , from Papists or any other , who will bring it me , with such evidence as may make it indeed my own . The Lord Unite us by Truth , Love and Humility . Amen . Septemb. 1. 1673. Richard Baxter . THE CONTENTS . PART I. WHat is the Protestants Religion , and what the Papists ? pag. 1. Chap. 1. The occasion of the Conference : with an humbling consideration to staggerers . ibid. Chap. 2. The Conditions of the Conference . p. 6. Chap. 3. What is the Religion of the Protestants . Of the name Protestant : The Augustane and other Confessions : The thirty nine Articles : The Essentials of Christianity to be distinguished from the Integrals and Accidentals . p. 9. Chap. 4. What is the Papists Religion : out of Veron , Davenport , &c. p. 25. PART II. Fourteen Principles in which the Papists and Protestants seem agreed ; by which the Protestant Religion is by the Papists confessed and maintained to be all true . p. 40. PART III. Twenty five Charges against Popery enumerated , to be all in order proved ; as Reasons why no one that hath Religion , or Sense and Reason , should turn Papist . p. 61. PART IV. The first Charge made good , viz. against Transubstantiation : In which Popery is fully proved to be the shame of Humane Nature ; contrary to SENSE , REASON , SCRIPTVRE and TRADITION , or the Judgement of the antient and the present Church ; devised by Satan to expose Christianity to the Scorn of Infidels . p. 75. Chap. 1. The first Reason to prove that there is Bread after the Consecration , from the certainty of the Intellects Perception by the means of sense . ibid. Twenty Reasons against the denying of common senses . p. 77. Chap. 2. The Papists Answers to all this confuted . p. 88. Chap. 3. The second Argument against Transubstantiation from the contradictions of it . p. 96. Chap. 4. The third Argument from the certain falshood of their multitudes of feigned Miracles in Transubstantiation . Thirty one Miracles in it enumerated ; with Twenty aggravations of those Miracles . p. 99. Chap. 5. The Minor proved , viz. That these Miracles are false or feigned . p. 110. Chap. 6. Arg. 4. Transubstantiation contrary to the express Word of God. p. 117. Chap. 7. Arg. 5. All these Miracles are proofless : yea , the Scripture abundantly directeth us otherwise to expound , This is my Body . p. 123. Chap. 8. Arg. 6. Transubstantiation nullifieth the Sacrament . p. 128. Chap. 9. The Novelty of Transubstantiation , as contrary to the faith of the antient Christians : And the singularity , contrary to the Judgement and Tradition of most of the Christian world . p. 132. Chap. 10. The second part of the Controversie : That it is not Christs very flesh and blood into which the Bread and Wine is turned . p. 146. Chap. 11. The Conclusion : The Scandal of our difference removed . Whether the falshood of one Article prove the Papists foundation false ? Whether it do so by the Protestants ? Whether Papists have any more Infallibility than others ? The necessity of discerning the Essentials of Christianity . The distinction of Explicite and Implicite faith considered . How come so many Princes , Nobles , Learned men , and whole Nations to be Papists ? All Christians besides Papists , are of one Church , though of many opinions . How come so many among us at home of late inclinable to Popery ? What hope of Concord with the Papists ? How to help them off their Councils ? Snares in the point of Transubstantiation . Of their denying the Cup to the Laity . p. 152. Reader , I Hope the Printers Errata are not many , and I am discouraged from gathering them , because I see men had rather err themselves , and calumniate the Author , than take notice of them : So hath Mr. Danvers done by me in a Book against Infant Baptism , where as an Introduction to abundance of mistakes in History , he abuseth his Reader by several scraps of a Book of mine , so curtail'd as to be insufficient to signifie the sense ; And among them feigneth me to write ( Chr. Direct . p. 3. pag. 885. l. 13. [ to Institute Sacraments ] as that which man may do , instead of [ Nor to Institute Sacraments ] ; and so maketh his credulous flock to believe that I assert that very thing which I write against : Though the place was markt with a Star in the Errata , and the Reader desired specially to Correct it . But such dealing is now grown so common with such men , that we must bear it as the effect of their disease . PART . I. What is the Protestants Religion , and what the Papists . CHAP. I. The occasion of the Conference . D. SIR , I am come to crave your help in a matter of great importance to me : I was bred a Protestant ; but the Discourses of some Roman Catholicks , have brought me into great doubts , whether I have not been all this while deceived : And though I cannot dispute the case my self with you , I desire you to dispute it in my hearing with a Catholick Priest whom I shall bring to you . R. With all my heart : But let me first ask you a few Questions . Quest . 1. Did you ever understand what the Protestants Religion is ? D. I take it to be the 39 Articles , Liturgie and Government of the Church of England . R. No wonder if you be easily drawn to doubt of that Religion which you no better understand . Can you hold it , and not know what it is ? Quest . 2. Do you know what it is to be a Christian ? D. It is to believe in Christ , and to Love and obey Him. Our Baptism is our Christening . R. Very true : And in your Baptism you are Dedicated and Vowed to God the Father , Son , and Holy Ghost , renouncing the Lusts of the Flesh , the World and the Devil . Quest . 3. And have you been a true Christian , and lived according to this Vow ? Have you obeyed God more than the desires of your flesh ? Have you preferred the Kingdom of Heaven before all the pleasures , honours and riches of this world ? Have you sincerely submitted to the healing saving Doctrine , Law and example of Christ , and to the sanctifying motions of his Holy Spirit ? And have you lived soberly , righteously , and Godlily in the world , and made it your care and business to deny your self , and mortifie all fleshly inordinate desires , as it is the care of sensual men to gratifie them ? D. I have had my faults as all men have ; but I hope none can say but I have lived honestly towards all ; And if I have been faulty in drinking , sports or gaming , it hath been to no ones injury but my own . R. I ask you not whether you are a sinner ; For so are all men . But whether you are a truly Penitent , Converted sinner ; and whether yet you are true to your Baptismal Vow and Covenant ? Can your Conscience say , that you Love , and Trust and obey God , and your Redeemer , before all the world ; and that you love not Pleasure , Riches and Honour , more than God and Holiness and Heaven ? and that it is more of the care and business of your life , to Know and Love and serve God better , and to make sure of your salvation , than to please your flesh , or prosper in the world ? In a word ; Do you heartily and in your practice , take God for your God , even for your All , and Christ , for your Teacher , King and Saviour , and the Holy Ghost for your Sanctifier , turning in heart and life , from the Devil , the world , and the sinful pleasures of the flesh ? This is the question which I desire you to answer . But I will prevent your answer lest you mistake my purpose , and think I make my self your Confessour , and I will tell you why I ask the question . Either you have thus Kept your Baptismal Vow , by a Godly life , or else you have broken it by worldliness and sensuality , &c. If you have kept it , and are a truly Godly person , you have resolved your own doubt , and absolutely confuted Popery already . For no honest man and true Christian can possibly turn Papist without gross contradiction . D. How prove you that . R. Most easily : I pray you do but mark : 1. It is their principal Doctrine that the Pope is the Head of the Universal Church on earth ; and that the Church subjected to him , is the Universal Church ; and that out of that Church there is no salvation ; and that no one is a true member of Christ and his Church , who is not a subject of the Pope . 2. And they all confess that every one shall be saved that is a true Christian , and keepeth his Baptismal Covenant , and that Loveth God above all . So that they must needs hold that none in the world but Papists , do truly Love God , & keep that Covenant , and are true Christians . Now if you can know that you have the true Love of God , and are true to your Baptism , you must needs confess that Popery is false , which saith that none Love God above all but Papists . D. But what if I have not Loved God , and obeyed him , above my flesh ? R. I 'le tell you what followeth . 1. It is no wonder if you forsake the Protestants Religion , who never truly entertained it . If your Heart and Life were not devoted unfeignedly to God , you were no true Christian , nor indeed had any true Religion at all : And he that hath no Religion , turneth from none which he truly had . If you were never a true Christian , you were never a true Protestant : And then what wonder if you turn Papist ? For you have no experimental Knowledge of that Religion which you seem to forsake . 2. And how could you expect better , but that God should penally forsake you , and give you over to believe deceits , if you have dealt so falsly and deceitfully with him , as to live to the world and flesh which you renounced , and neglect that God and Saviour and sanctifier to whom you were so solemnly devoted ? And if you have been so treacherous and unwise , as to prefer a bruitish transitory pleasure , before Gods Love and the Joyes of Heaven ? 3. And what honour is it to the Church of Rome , that none but Infidels and false-hearted hypocrites , and perfidious breakers of their Covenant with God , did ever turn to them ? If you turn Papist , you confess that you were a wicked hypocrite before . 4. But the chief thing which I would tell you is , that turn up and down as oft as you will , to this Church or that Church , to this side or that side , you will never be saved , unless you become a holy , serious , mortified Christian : As long as you love pleasures , wealth and honour more than God and Holiness and Heaven , you shall never be saved , whether you be Papist , or a professed Protestant . It would make the heart of a Christian ake , to see so many thousands cheated by the Devil , to take this opinion or that opinion , called the true faith , and this side or that side , called the true Church , to be to them instead of a holy heavenly heart and life . And how many thousands , especially Papists , that are truly of no Religion , do dispute , and plot and disquiet the world , as for Religion . To hear a prophane man swear that his Religion is right ; or that man to think to be saved for being of the true Church and faith , whose heart was never set on Heaven , but liveth in drunkenness , lying , idleness , fornication , and thinketh that the Priests absolution sets all right again . Without true Holiness no man shall be saved , what Church soever he joyn with ; and with it no man shall be damned . For God cannot hate them that have his nature , and Image . D. Well sir : I came not to dispute with you , but to desire you to meet a Roman Catholick Priest , that I may hear you both together . R. I have the greater hopes of you , because you have so much regard of your soul , as to be willing to hear what can be said . For most that turn to them , never come to an impartial tryal , but rashly follow the deceiver , or stay till they are secretly hardened by false insinuations , and then take on them to desire to hear both , when they are first resolved to be gone . But you must tell me what is the question that you desire should be disputed . D. I would know whether the Papists or the Protestants be the True , and safe Religion ? R. I undertake to give you that plain undenyable evidence for your resolution , which should fully satisfie any reasonable man , at least that professeth himself a Christian : so be it you will perform these reasonable conditions : 1. That you will be impartially willing to know the truth . 2. That you will honestly resolve to Live according to it when you know it , and to be True to the True Religion . 3. That you will bring such a man to confer with me , who will yield to the Reasonable Conditions of a disputant , such as your Doubt and the nature of the matter doth notoriously require , and not a Knave , and studied Deceiver , who will set himself purposely to hide the truth . D. These conditions are so reasonable that I must not deny them . CHAP. II. The Conditions of the Conference ; between a P. and R. and D. R. SIR , I am desired by this person , who is brought by some of you to doubt of our Religion , to debate this Case with you in order to his satisfaction , Whether the Papists or the Protestants be the True and Safe Religion ? P. That is too large a Question : We cannot dispute of all our Religion at once : I will begin with you , about some one of the Articles of the Church of England , or the Visibility of your Church in all Ages , or the Resolution of your faith , &c. And this I will do only on these conditions , 1. That you bring some express Text of Scripture , which without your Interpretation , Reasonings or Consequences , doth assert that Article of yours which I shall accuse , or contradict any Article of our faith , which shall be questioned . 2. Or if you will go from the express words to Reasoning , that we keep to the strictest Rules of Logick , and that you use nothing but Syllogism , and that all be done in writing , and not by word of mouth . R. Neighbour D. you promised me to bring another kind of Disputant : You hear his conditions : you shall hear my answer . 1. The Case which you told me you were in doubt of , and desired satisfaction in , was Which is the True and Safe Religion ? This he refuseth to Dispute . Pretending that we cannot dispute of our whole Religion at once . But did you never hear him give any Reasons against our Religion ? If he have , Why can he not do it now ? I expect not all in a word , but let him give them one by one , and say his worst . I am sure I can give you many against theirs : And we will after debate them particularly as largely as you please . 2. If Writing be it that you desire for your satisfaction , I ask you , whether you have read all , or the fourth part , of what is written against Popery already . Have you read Dr. Challoner of the Catholick Church ? Dr. White , Dr. Field , Dr. Downame of Antichrist , Chillingworth , Dr. Abbot , Dr. Willet , Bishop Vsher , Bishop Morton , Dr. Stillingfleet , and an hundred more ? Why should I expect that you should read what I shall write , if you will not read what 's written already ? 3. Can you stay so long unresolved without injury to your soul , till he and I have done writing ? You cannot but know , that from Sheets we must proceed to the writing of Volumes , in answering each other , as others have done . And this is like to be many years work , for men that have other business : And how know you that we shall all Live so long ? 4. Are you able when it cometh to tedious Volumes to examine them , and find who is in the right ? Or will you not rather take him to conquer , who hath the last word ? And it 's like that will be the longest liver ? 5. And as to a strict syllogistical form , do you understand that best ? I avoid it not , but shall consent to use it as far as you understand it . Do you know all the Logical forms of arguing , all Moods and Figures , and all the fallacies ? Or do you not perceive , that you have broken your promise with me , and brought a friend of darkness , who cometh purposely to hide the truth ? D. I must needs profess , that the Question which I would have debated , is , Which is the True and Safe Religion ? And that it is not tedious writings , nor long delayes , but present conference which must satisfie me . And that it is plain Scripture and Reason that must satisfie me , who understand not Logick . I pray let me hear your own Conditions which you think more just . R. The Conditions which the nature of the Cause directeth us to , are these . I. That we first truly state the question to be disputed : For we cannot dispute till we are agreed of what : That is , 1. That we agree what we mean by our [ Religion ] ; and 2. That I tell you , what is the Religion of Protestants , which I undertake to defend : And that he tell us what is the Religion of the Romanists , which must be compared with it . II. That our Conference consist of these several parts . 1. That premising the principles in which we are agreed , I tell you the Reasons why you should not be a Papist . 2. That he tell you the Reasons why you should turn Papist , or what he hath against Our Religion . 3. That then we come to dispute these Reasons distinctly : where I will prove my charges against them , and he shall prove his charges against us one by one . III. And that in all our disputes , we shall consent , 1. Not to interrupt each other in speech ; but if the length seem to overmatch the hearers memory , we will take brief Notes to help our memories , as we go , and crave the recitation of what shall be forgotten : For the strength of Truth lyeth so much in the connexion of its parts , that when it is mangled into scraps by uncivil interruptions , it is deformed and debilitated and cannot be well understood . 2. That we bind our selves by solemn promise , to speak nothing which we unfeignedly judge not to be truth , nor any thing designedly to hide or resist the truth which we discern . These terms are so just and necessary , that I will avoid him as a fraudulent wrangler who will deny them . For I come not to scold , nor to try who hath the strongest Lungs , the nimblest Tongue , or the lowdest voice , or the greatest confidence , or fiercest passion ; but to try who hath the truth , and which is the true way to Heaven . For the servant of the Lord must not strive ; especially about words and barren notions ; for that doth but tend to increase ungodliness . D. Your Method is so reasonable , and so suited to my own necessity , that I must profess no other can so much tend to my satisfaction : And therefore I hope it will not be refused . ( Here after long opposition , the P. at last agreeth to these terms ) . CHAP. III. What is the Religion of the Protestants . R. I. THe word [ Religion ] is sometimes taken Objectively ; And so I mean by it ▪ [ The objects of Religious Belief , Love and Practice , ] which are , 1. The Things themselves ; which are the principal objects ( called by Logicians , The Incomplex terms . ) 2. The organical object ; or the Revelation of these Things ; containing 1. The Words or other . Signs : 2. The sense or notions signified . For instance , Matth. 17.5 . [ This is my Beloved son in whom I am well pleased . ] Here 1. The Real Incomplex object is Christ Himself , the beloved Son of God , and God the Fathers well-pleasedness in him . 2. The signal part of the organical object , or Revelation , is the Words themselves , as spoken then , and written now . 3. The signified notions are the Meaning of the words , and are the chief part of the organical object , that is the Divine Revelation . The word [ Religion ] is of larger extent in its sense than [ Faith ] ; For it containeth all that Revelation which God hath made Necessary to salvation ; which is twofold , 1. That which is to inform the understanding with necessary knowledge and faith . 2. That which is necessary to a Holy Will and a Holy Life , to the Love of God and man , and to well doing ; which are Precepts , Promises and Threatnings . II. The word [ Religion ] is oft taken also subjectively ( as they speak ) ; For the Acts and habits of Love and Obedience . Now I suppose we are agreed that it is not Religion in this last sense that we are to dispute of ( which is as divers as persons are : ) But it is that which we call Objective Religion , even the Organical part directly . And if by all this D. understandeth us not , in plainer words , our Question is , Of the True Divine Revelation , viz. Which is the True Rule of Faith , Will and Practice ; that which is held to be such by the Protestants : or that which is held to be such by the Papists ? P. I grant you , that this is the state of the Question . R. I here declare to you then , What is the Religion of the Protestants . IT IS THE LIGHT and LAW OF GOD CONCERNING HOLY KNOWLEDGE and BELIEF , HOLY WILL and PRACTICE , CONTAINED IN NATURE and THE TRUE CANONICAL SCRIPTURES . Here note 1. That our Religion hath its Essential parts ; And its Integral parts and Accidentals . I. The Essentials of our Religion , are contained in the Baptismal Covenant ; which is expounded in the CREED , the LORDS PRAYER , and the DECALOGUE ( as delivered and expounded by Christ , and the Law of Nature . ) II. Our Entire Religion , in the Essentials , Integrals and needful Accidentals is contained wholly in the Law of Nature and the Canonical Scriptures . The Essentials are delivered down to us two wayes : 1. In Scripture with the rest ; 2. By the sure tradition of the Vniversality of Christians , in actual Baptizings , and the daily profession of Christianity . This is all the Protestants Religion . If you fasten any other on us , we deny it ; we own no other . And none know What is my Religion , that is , What I take for the Rule of my holy Faith , Love and Life , so well as my self . P. This is meer craft : you will make that only which is past controversie among us , to be Your Religion , that so your Religion may be past controversie too . R. It is such Craft as containeth that naked truth , which we trust all our own salvation on . I say that I have no other Religion ; And if you know better than I , disprove me . P. I disprove you three wayes . I. Because the Name Protestant signifieth no such Religion , but somewhat else lately taken up . II. Because the Angustane Confession , the thirty nine Articles and such like , are by your selves called The Articles of your Religion . III. Because all your Writings declare , that besides these , you hold all those controverted points , which are contrary to that which you call Popery . R. I pray you mark D. that he would perswade you that he knoweth my Religion better than I do my self ? What if I should pretend the like as to his Religion ? Were I to be believed ? P. No : but if you have an odd Religion of your own , that proveth it not to be the Protestant Religion . R. Remember D. that I come not hither to perswade you to any other Religion , than this which I have mentioned . Let him talk as long as he will what is other mens opinions , I perswade you to nothing but this , to take Gods Law of Nature and the Scripture for your Religion . Either this is Right or Wrong . If Right , fix here and I have done . If Wrong , let that be disputed . But yet I open to you all his three deceits . I. The name Protestant doth not signifie our Religion , but our Protesting against the Papists corruptions and additions . I have no Religion but Christianity : I am a Christian , and that signifieth all my Religion . I am a Catholick Christian , that is , of the Common Christian Faith and Church , and not of any heretical dividing Sect : And I am a Reformed Protestant Christian , because I renounce Popery . Therefore I rather say [ The Protestants ] than the [ Protestant ] Religion . As if I were among Lepers ; If I say , I am no Leper , that signifieth not my Essence : But if I say , [ I am a Man , and I am not a Leper , ] I speak my Nature , and my freedom from that disease . So if I say I am a Christian Protestant , I mean only that I am a Christian , and no Papist , or renouncing Popery ; as by the word [ Catholick ] I renounce all Sects and Schisms . I tell you , This is my meaning , when I say , I am a Protestant : and can you tell my meaning better than my self ? II. And as to what he saith of the thirty nine Articles and other Church Confessions , I answer , None of these are our Religion , in the sense now in question ; that is , They are not taken by us to be [ the Divine Revealed-Rule of our Faith , Love and Life ] which is our Religion now disputed of . And that this is so , I prove to you past all question . For 1. Else should we have as many Religions as we have Church Confessions , and should alter our Religion as oft as we alter our Confessions ; and our Religion should be as New as those Confessions : All which the Protestants abhor . 2. All those very Confessions themselves do assert that Gods Word is our only Religion , and all mens Writings and Decrees are lyable to mistakes : To pass by all the rest , these are the words of our sixth Article , [ Holy Scripture containeth all things Necessary to salvation : so that whatsoever is not read therein , nor may be proved thereby , is not to be required of any man , that it should be believed as an Article of faith , or be thought Requisite or necessary to salvation ] . What would you have more plain and full ? And in the Book of Ordination , it is askt [ Are you perswaded that the Holy Scriptures contain sufficiently all doctrine required of necessity for eternal salvation ? through faith in Jesus Christ ? And are you determined out of the said Scriptures to instruct the people committed to your charge ? and to teach Nothing ( as required of necessity to eternal salvation ) but that which you shall be perswaded may be concluded and proved by the Scripture ? ] Is not this plain ? P. Why then do you call the thirty nine Articles the Articles of your Religion ? And what is their use ? And why are all required to subscribe them ? R. 1. Their Use is to signifie how the Conjunct Pastors who use them do understand the Holy Scriptures in those points : And that partly for the satisfaction of all forreign Churches , who may hear us accused of Heresie or Error ; and partly to be a hedge to the Doctrine of young Preachers , to keep them from vending mistakes in the Churches , and also to try the soundness of their understandings . 2. The Confessions , and Articles , and Catechisms are our Religion , as the Writings of Perron , Bellarmine , Suarez , &c. or many of these agreeing , are the Roman Religion : They are not the Divine Revelation and Rule of faith and practice to us : But they are the expression of our own conceptions of the sense of several chief matters in that Rule or Revelation . So that they are the Expression of our faith or Religion taken subjectively ( for acts and habits ) and not our objective Rule it self . Our Sermons and Prayers are our Religion in this sense : that is , The Expression of our own Religious Conceptions : And so are your Sermons and your Writings also to you . But if this were our Rule of Faith and Life , and so our Divine Objective Religion , then we should be of as many Religions , as we are several persons : For every one hath his several Expressions : And every new Sermon , or Book , or Prayer , would be a new part of Religion . And so with you also . So that this doubt is past all doubt : Our Confessions are but the expressions of our personal belief , and not our Rule of Faith. III. And as to your third pretence ( that we have other Articles as opposite to Popery ) I answer , Our Religion as a Rule of Faith and Worship is one thing ▪ And our Rejecting all Corruptions and Additions is another . E. g. My Religion is , that our God is only the true God. If now I say also , that Hercules is not God , and Bacchus is not God , and Venus , Mars , Mercury , Pallas , Neptune , Pluto , Ceres , &c. are not Gods ; is this a new Religion , or an addition to the former ? If the Baptismal Covenant be the Essentials of my Religion , and the Creed , Lords Prayer and Decalogue the Explication of it ; and if the Scripture be my Entire Religion , and if the Papists will come and add a multitude of new Articles and Corruptions , my rejecting of those additions , is no more an alteration of my Religion , than the sweeping of my house , or the washing of my hands is an alteration of them . So that notwithstanding all that you have said , my Religion is nothing but the Law of Nature and Scripture , and my rejecting of Popery , is no otherwise my Religion , than my freedom from the Leprosie , &c. is my humanity . P. Observe , I pray you , that It is no part of your Religion to be against Popery . R. Observe I pray you , that Popery is against my Religion , that is , against much of the Christian Religion ; and therefore my Religion is against Popery . But I will not quarrell with you about words : When God hath Revealed to us his Will , and the Papists add their corrupting inventions , Gods Revealed Will is my Religion : your Corrupting additions are contrary to it : Call my rejecting such Corruptions and additions , by the name of my Religion Reductively ( as Nihil is objectum Intellectus , & Malum Voluntatis ; and as non-agere is part of obedience ) ; or Call it no part of my Religion in the primary notion , but a Rejecting of its contraries ; so we understand each other I care not . The truth is , the Rejecting of some of your errors , directly contradicting the Scripture it self , may be called part of our Religion , as the Negation of the Contrary is included in the sense of an Affirmative : But your remoter additions , are contrary to our Religion , but not so directly . For instance : when the Scripture saith , There is bread after Consecration , and you say There is no bread : My Religion containeth the Assertion , that There is bread : And so includeth a contradiction to your Negative , that saith [ There is none ] . Now to say , that it is none of my Religion to deny your Negative , who say There is no bread , would import that It is none of my Religion which affirmeth that there is bread . Contradictions cannot both be true : Properly that word that saith There is bread is my Religion : But this word contradicteth you that say There is none . But in another instance ; my Religion saith , that The Righteous shall go into life everlasting , and the rest to everlasting punishment ; and tells us of a Heaven and Hell only hereafter : And you tell us of Limbus Patrum & Infantum , and of Purgatory : The Scripture enableth us by consequence to confute this : but if it did not , it were enough for me to say , It is none of my Religion , because not Revealed by God in Nature or Scripture ; And as it is your Addition , so to deny it , is not directly and properly my Religion it self , but the Defence and Vse of my Religion . God tells us in Scripture , that He created Heaven and Earth . If one should assert as from God , that God created ten thousand Heavens and ten thousand Earths , this is a faith of his own invention or addition , and it is enough for me to say , I have no such faith ; because God revealeth no such thing . So tha● still the Scripture is the Protestants Religion as your Polydor Virgil truly describeth them , and others confess . P. All this is meer delusion : For It is not the words , but the sense that is your Religion ; as you will confess . And if your Articles or Confessions contain a false sense , or your Books or Sermons shew that you falsly expound the Scripture , your Religion is then false . R. Such Confusion may cheat a heedless hearer : But any one that will take heed , may quickly perceive , that you here fraudulently play with the ambiguity of the word [ Religion ] and quite turn to another question . For you now speak of subjective Religion , that is , of the Acts and habits of the person : whereas we are disputing only of objective Religion , which is Gods Revelation and our Rule . If I understand any Texts of Scripture amiss , my faith is so far defective in my selfs ▪ But Gods Word , which is my Rule , is never the more imperfect . I pray you consider how justly you have spoken . 1. Is a mans Act of faith , Gods Word or Revelation ? 2. What need you dispute of the Protestants Religion , if we have as many Religions as persons ? For it is as certain that we have as many degrees of our understanding many Texts of Scripture ? 3. Would not this prove also as many Religions as persons among your selves ? Is it not most certain that no two Papists in the world , have just the same sense or conceptions of the Scriptures and Councils in each particular . The Law of God is my only Religion , objectively , as how disputed of : If I mistake any essential part of it , so as to deny it , I am personally a Heretick : If I mistake any Integral part , I so far err from the Rule of my Religion or faith . But I still profess , that I take Gods Word or Law only for my sure unchangeable Rule or objective Religion , and I am daily learning to understand it better , and as soon as I see my error I will reform it , and blame my self and not my Rule . And I think you will say the same of your Rule and of your personal errors . P. This shall not serve your turn : For every Law must have its promulgation : And if it be not manifested to you that Scripture is Gods Law , and sufficient , it cannot be your Rule : I ask you therefore , Qu. 1. Is it the Scripture in the Original , or in the Translations , which you say is your Religion , Law or Rule ? R. I told you our Divine Rule consisteth of Words and Meaning . It is only the Originals which are our Rule or Religion as to the very words ; that is , Only the Original words , were of that Divine Inspiration . But every Translation is so far Gods Word , in sense , as it expresseth truly the sense of the original words . P. Qu. 2. I pray you what then is the Religion of all the unlearned Protestants , who know not a word of the Originals ? They may see now that you have stript them of all Divine Religion . R. Their Religion is the same objectively with that of the most learned , as delivered from God ; but it is not equally learned and understood by them ; Gods Word in the Original Tongues is given them as the Rule of Faith and Worship ; and Teachers are appointed to help them to understand it . When these Teachers have Translated it to them , they have the same sense , though not the same words , for their Religion . And to know the Words is not so necessary to salvation , as to know the sense ( or sentence ) though by other words : For the words are but means to know the Sense ; and the sense but a means to know the Things , ( viz. God , Christ , Grace , Glory , &c. ) And as they have the same God , Christ , Spirit , Grace , Glory , &c. to be the real objects of their Religion , so have they the same Do-Doctrine and Law in sense which is in the Originals . P. Q. 3. And I pray you , How shall the unlearned be sure that the Translations are true as to the sence ? when you have no Divine Infallible Translators ? R. I also ask you . 1. How was all the Greek Church for many hundred years sure of the soundness of the Translation called the Septuagint ? or that of Aquila , Theodot . Symmachus , &c. when it is certain that in many things they were all unsound ? 2. How was the Latine Church sure of the soundness of their Translation before Hierome amended it ? And how have you been sure since then , when Pope Sixtus , and Pope Clement have made so many hundred alterations or differences ? Had you then Infallible Translators ? And why then do your Translators ( as Montanus and others ) still differ from that Vulgar Latine ? 3. And how do all your unlearned persons know that you give them not only the true sence of the Scriptures , but of all your Councils or Traditions ? But I will answer you directly . We still distinguish the Essentials of our Religion , from the Integrals and Accidentals . 1. The unlearned may be certain that the Essentials are truly delivered them in sence : Because they have them not only in the Scripture , but by Vniversal certain Tradition , in the constant Vse of Christian Baptism , and in the use of the Creed , Lords Prayer and Decalogue in all the Church-assemblies : And they may easily know that mens tempers , Countreys , Interests , opinions in other points , and sidings are so various , that it is not a thing possible without a miracle , that all these should conspire both in a false Translation , and Vniversal assertion and Tradition of all these Essentials . For the effects must be contrary to a torrent of Causes : The Papists , Protestants , Arians , Greeks , Socinians , Lutherans , Calvinists , Anabaptists , Separatists , &c. have so much animosity against each other , that undoubtedly if any party of them did falsifie Scripture even in the Essentials which are easily discerned , multitudes would quickly detect it and contradict them . And this the unlearned may surely and easily discern . But as for all other less necessary texts of Scripture , neither you nor we , learned or unlearned , are certain that they are perfectly translated , nor are they by any one perfectly understood , nor are they sure ( by reason of the various readings ) which copie of the original is absolutely faultless . 2. But suppose that an unlearned weak Believer were not absolutely certain ( as he may be ) that the very essentials of Christianity are truly opened to him , he may yet grow up to better understanding , and he may be saved with some doubtings of Christianity it self , so be it his Faith be more prevalent than those doubtings , upon his Heart and Life . P. Is it a safe Religion which you your self describe ? When no man can be sure that he rightly understandeth all the Scriptures ? and when your believer is uncertain , even of Christianity it self ? Let D. Judge whether this be a sure Religion . R. The word of God is absolutely certain in it self ; but that so much uncertainty may be in believers , I will make you to your shame confess your self , and recant these insinuations . Q. 1. Dare you say that all your Church , or any one man , even the Pope himself , doth understand all the Scripture ? or can perfectly and infallibly translate each word ? You dare not say it . Else why did he never once pretend to give us either an unerring Commentary or Translation ? And why have you such great diversity of both ? Q. 2. How much less dare you say that any of you perfectly understand all the Councils , which are the rest of your Religion ? No nor that you have certainty which are the true Copies of them all ? else why do Caranza , Crab ; Surius , Binnius , Nicolinus , &c. give give us such various Copies ? And yet you confess the Scriptures to be Gods word , and with the Councils to contain your Religion . Q. 3. If God have promised salvation , to all that truly hold and practise the Essentials ( the Baptismal Covenant ) doth the difficulty of other points ( in Genealogie , Chronologie , History , by matters ) either make our salvation ever the less certain , or any way impeach the word of God ? What disgrace is it to a man that besides Head and Heart , he hath fingers , and toes , and nails and hair ? No more is it to the Scripture , that as our entire Religion , it containeth even Integrals and Accidentals . Q. 4. And as to a Doubting Believer , I ask , Dare you say that all those were Infidels or in a state of damnation , who said , See the Roman Catech. where this is confest , Cap. 1. q. 1. pag. 9. Lord increase our faith ? or Lord we believe ; help our unbelief ? or to whom Christ said , Why are ye afraid O ye of little faith ? or that said , Luk. 24. We trusted that this had been he that should have delivered Israel ? Or if a man should doubt even of the Life to come , and yet his Faith be so much more powerful than his doubts , as that he resolveth to prefer his hopes of Heaven before all this world , and to seek it on the most self-denying terms , even to the laying down of life it self , are you sure that this man shall be damned ? But this is the Course of pievish wranglers . To maintain their own opinions and put a face of certainty on their own conclusions , they stick not to damn almost all the world . For it will be no less , if all doubting believers must be damned . 5. It is a gross delusion to pretend that there is a necessity , that All Gods Infallible word , must needs be taught us by as Infallible Inspired Prophets or other persons , as those that first delivered it . Translation is but the first part of exposition . And must we have none but Infallible or Prophetical Expositors ? 6. Is it All the Scriptures , or but some part , that your Pope or Councils can Infallibly both translate and expound ? If but some , we need not their Infallibility or Inspiration , for the most plain and necessary parts : It is and can be done without them . If it be All , how impious and cruel are they that would never do it to this day ? 7. And why use all your Expositors the common helps of Grammars , Lexicons , Teachers , long studies , and yet differ de side ( even of the sense of many a text of Scripture ) when all is done , if your Pope have the gift of Infallible Translating and expounding all ? P. Remember that your selves derive your Essentials from Tradition . R. Yes , and our Integrals to : What objective presence to the senses , ( eyes and ears ) of those that heard Christ and his Apostles , and saw their miracles was to the first Converts in those times , that partly Tradition is to us , or the necessary medium . The words could not come down to us , without some to deliver them . We have the Bible by Tradition , and we have practical Tradition of Baptism and the Creed by it self , and that in many languages ; where we are sure we have all the necessary sence . But do you remember that this is Vniversal Tradition , and not meer Roman Tradition ; such as is certain by moral Evidence , even the consent of all that are yet of cross opinions and Interests , ( as to matter of fact ) ; Historical Evidence ; and not the pretended certainty of a Pope and his favourites , phanatically claiming a spirit of Infallibility . But I am not now disputing with you , I am only telling you that the Protestant Religion is nothing but Christianity and the Scriptures . And all our Confessions are our Religion ( besides Consent ) but as our Sermons and Treatises are , which vary as they are various expressions of mens various subjective faith ; while Gods word varyeth not . P. If the Bible be your Religion , then the Ceremonial Law of Moses is your Religion : For that is part of the Bible . R. You study what to say against another , and never think how it concerneth your selves . 1. Is not the Bible at least Part of your Religion ? You dare not deny it . And is the Ceremonial Law of Moses therefore your Religion ? 2. I told you that as a perfect man hath hair and nails , which are but Accidents , so the Bible hath more than the Integrals of our Religion . 3. The Ceremonies of Moses in that sense as now they are delivered to us in the Bible , are parts or appurtenances of our Religion : That is , the historical narrative of those Abrogated Laws , which now bind us not as Laws , but tell us ( as the Prophesies ) what was heretofore , and how Christ was fore-typified , and what intimations of Gods will we may gather from the history . And the abrogated Laws are no otherwise delivered to us , and so we must use them . P. If the ten Commandments be your Religion , you must keep the Jewish seventh day Sabbath : so that neither there can you fix . R. The same answer will serve . 1. The ten Commandments are no otherwise part of our Religion th●n they are of yours . 2. They are a Law to us , as delivered and expounded by Christ , and in Nature : and the seventh day is an abrogated part of Moses Law. P. If the Creed be your Religion , you must take the Article of Christs descent into Hell to be necessary to salvation . R. 1. Is the Creed no part of your Religion ? As you answer , so may we . 2. I did not tell you that the Creed had no more than the Essentials . I told you that all the Essence of Christianity is in the Baptismal Covenant : And he that understandeth that , understandeth it all . And that the Creed , the Lords Prayer , and the Christian Decalogue are the exposition of it . But the Exposition may have somewhat more than the Essentials . 3. The Creed was not written first in English , nor Latine ; And Christs descent to Hades is more needful to be believed , than his descent to Hell , as the word is commonly taken in English . But , to conclude , remember , 1. That I profess here to own and plead for no other Religion ( as we explained the word ) but Gods Law of Nature and Scripture . 2. That I profess to perswade D. to no other : And you cannot make me a Religion against my will. CHAP. IV. What is the Papists Religion . R. I Have plainly told you what my own , and the Protestants Religion is , viz. [ Nothing but Christianity ; contained Integrally in the holy Scriptures ; And the Essentials being the Baptismal Covenant , explained in the Creed , Lords prayer and Christian Decalogue , are delivered to us both in the said Scriptures , and by distinct Tradition ; which also hath brought down to us the Scripture it self : Not a Tradition depending on the pretended Authority of the Roman Pope or party , or on any other that shall pretend the like ; But that Historical Evidence of matter of fact , which is surelier given us by all sorts of Christians , taking in the Concord of many Hereticks , Infidels and Enemies ; which evidence dependeth not on the credit of supernatural Revelation , but on the natural credibility yea and certainty of such universal Circumstantiated Concordant testimony ; and is necessarily antecedent to the Belief of supernatural Revelations in the particulars , as sight and hearing were in the auditors of Christ and the Apostles ; seeing these two Acts of Knowledge , [ Whatever God saith is True ; and This God saith ] must necessarily go before our Belief or Trust that [ This is True , because God saith it . ] And so we run not in a circle , and need not a supernatural faith , for the founding of our first supernatural faith ; that is , A first before the first . ] Without fraud or obscurity this is our faith and Religion . Now do you as honestly and plainly tell me What is Yours , which D. must be perswaded to : For I confess that I take it to be an unintelligible thing , and despair that ever you give any man a certain notice , what it is , which may be truly called the Religion of your Roman-Catholick-Church . P. I shall make you understand it if you are willing : But 1. Note that [ Religion ] being a larger word than [ faith ] includeth also [ Practice ] or [ Manners ] , we must give you a distinct account of each : For they have not the same Causes : Our Faith is Divine ; But our Manners or Practice must follow the Laws of the Church , as well as the Immediate Laws of God : These must not be confounded . R. Man hath three faculties , Intellective , Volitive and Vitally - Executive , or Active : Our Religion subjectively must be in all , viz. The Sanctity of all , by Holy Life , Light and Love : And therefore the Rule which is our objective Religion doth extend to all , ( to Intellect , Will and Practice ) . And surely for All , there is a Rule directly Divine , given by Inspiration of the Holy Ghost or Christs own words , and subordinate Rules by Christs Ministers , which are directly Humane , and no otherwise Divine than as God hath in General authorized them thereto . Even as the Soveraign hath the only Vniversal Legislative power , and Magistrates by Him are authorized to subordinate mandates and acts of Government . And so we have a Divine Faith and Revelation , and a subordinate Humane faith and Ministerial Revelation or Preaching : We have Divine Perswasions , and subordinate Perswasions of men : We have Divine Laws , yea and executions ; and we have Humane subordinate Laws and executions . If you resolve to call the Humane , Divine so far as they are indeed Authorized by God , I will not quarrel about words : But remember , 1. That so you must do also on the same reasons , by the Laws of Kings and the Commands of Parents , who are as much authorized by God to their proper Government . 2. And I hope you mean not to Confound these Humane Laws , with Gods own Vniversal Laws , nor humane faith with Divine faith . And be it known to you , It is the Divine Revelations and Laws as distinct from the Humane , which we are now calling our Religion , and disputing of ; though this Religion teach us to obey Parents , Pastors and Princes , and that obedience may be consequentially and reductively called Religious if you please . But if really your Religion be not Divine , but Humane , let us know it . For by the word [ Religion ] we essentially mean that which is [ Divine . ] P. Men were the speakers and writers of the Scriptures , and so far they are humane , as well as the Decrees of the present Church . R. The Decalogue was witten by God , and delivered by the Ministry of Angels : Christ was owned by a Voice from Heaven . And himself spake and did most recited by the four Evangelists : And the Prophets and Apostles spake by the immediate Infallible Inspiration of the Holy Ghost : So that the Holy Ghost is the Author of the Scriptures . But the present Pastors of the Church instead of that Immediate Revelation from God by the Spirits Inspiration , have but the ordinary help of the Spirit , to understand those same Revelations , and that proportioned to the measure of their diligence , natural parts and helps of Art , as the knowledge of Theologie is attained by other Students ; who are none of them perfect or free from error . P. I will tell you what our Religion is , It is Gods Word concerning things to be Believed and Done delivered partly in the Canonical Scriptures , and partly by Oral Tradition , and received by the Church , and by it delivered to us . The Trent . Catech. Prefac . q. 12. saith , Omnis doctrinae ratio , quae fidelibus tradenda sit , verbo Dei continetur , quod in Scripturam , Traditionesque distributum est . The Reason of every doctrine which is to be delivered to the faithful , is contained in the Word of God , which is distributed into the Scripture and Traditions . Vide Concil . Senonens . in Bin. Decr. 5. p. 671. & Concil . Tridentini Sess . 4. p. 802. — Perspiciensque hanc Veritatem & disciplinam contineri in libris sacris , & sine scripto Traditionibus , quae ex ipsius Christi ore ab Apostolis acceptae , & ab ipsi , Apostolis Spiritu sancto dictante quasi per manus traditae , ad nos usque pervenerunt , orthodoxorum patrum sententiam sequuta , omnes libros tam Veteris quam Novi Testamenti , nec non Traditiones ipsas , tum ad fidem , tum ad mores pertinentes , tanquam vel ore tenus a Christo , vel a Spiritu sancto dicta●as , & continua successione in Ecclesia Catholica conservatas , pari pietatis affectu & reverentia suscipit ac veneratur . Bellarmin . de Verbo Dei , lib. 4. c. 2 , 3. sheweth the divers sorts of unwritten Traditions which are part of Gods Word : some de side , as the perpetual Virginity of Mary , that there are but four Gospels , &c. and some of Manners ; as Crossing , Fast-dayes , &c. Easter , Whitsontide , and other Festivals . Veron de Reg. fid . cap. 2. saith , [ The total and only Rule of the Catholick faith , to which all are obliged under pain of Heresie and Excommunication , is Divine Revelation delivered to the Prophets and Apostles , proposed by the Catholick Church in her General Councils , or by her Universal practice , to be believed as an Article of Catholick faith . ] [ All that is of this nature is an Article or doctrine of faith . And no other doctrine can be of faith , if either the first Condition fail , viz. Divine Revelation , or the second , which is a Proposal by the Universal Church . ] p. 5. No doctrine grounded on Scripture diversly interpreted , either by the antient Fathers or our Modern Doctors , is an Article of faith . For such a doctrine , though it may be revealed , yet the revelation is not ascertained to us , nor proposed by the Church : — Nor any Proposition which can be proved only by consequence drawn from Scripture , though the consequences were certain and evident , and deduced from two propositions of Scripture — Yet these doctrines are Certain , when the premises are so . — Gratians decrees — the Papal decrees contained in the body of the Canon Law , none of them do constitute an Article of saith — Nor that which is defined in Provincial Councils , though the Pope preside in person — for the second condition is alwayes wanting in this case , and very often the first — p. 11. I did not say that such definitions were not of faith — but they are not of Catholick faith , or which all as Catholicks are bound to hold as of faith , and the contrary to which is heretical , and removeth from the bosome of the Church . — p. 12 , 13. The Practice even of the Vniversal Church is no sufficient ground for an Article of Catholick faith , by reason the object of faith is Truth : and oft times the Church proceeds in matter of practice , upon probable Opinions , and this probability is sufficient to justifie the practice , which the Church on just cause may change : As e. g. as Vasquez teacheth , the Church did antiently pray in the Mass for Infidels alive , and Catechumens dead , and the Sacrifice of the Mass was offered for them , and yet he — rather inclineth to the contrary , that the Sacrifice of the Mass ought not to be offered , but for the faithful living and dead , by which Opinion the Church seemeth guided at present . But Vasquez answers , that the Church following a probable opinion did practise that which she did not declare to be of faith . — p. 15. So General Councils when they mention any thing in this manner ( by way of simple assertion ) and do not properly define : For as Bellarmine affirms , it is necessary that General Councils properly define the thing in question , as a Decree which ought to be held as of Catholick faith . Hence Bellarmine adds , they are not properly Hereticks , who hold the Pope not to be above all Councils , though he say the last Laterane Council under Leo the tenth Ses . 11. expresly and professedly teacheth that the Pope is above all Councils , and rejects the contrary Decree of the Council of Basil : because it is doubtful whether the Laterane Council defined that doctrine properly as a Decree to be believed with Catholick faith . The same Bellarm. ( de Concil . l. 2. c. 19. ) also requireth that the definition be made Conciliarly : Pope Martin the fifth said , he only confirmed those Decrees of faith which were made in the Council of Constance , Conciliariter : that is , after the manner of other Councils , the question being first diligently examined : But its clear ( saith he ) that this Decree , that a General Council hath immediate authority from Christ , which all , even the Pope , are bound to obey , was made without any examining — p. 17. The object defined must be truly and properly an object of faith ; and a Decree ought to be on a thing universally proposed to the whole Church — Vasquez holds : It is not at all erroneous to affirm that a General Council may err in Precepts , and in particular Judgements — and ( p. 19. ) in framing Laws not necessary to salvation ; or making superfluous Laws — Without all doubt a General Council may err in a question of fact : ( which depends on testimony and information of men : ) So the sixth General Council condemned Honorius of Heresie by false Information , and misunderstanding his Epistles . — p. 20. The Pope ( saith Suarez ) to a particular action belonging to humane Prudence , hath no infallible assistance of the Holy Ghost — As that such or such an excommunication is valid , or that such or such a Kingdom is disposable by the Pope for such and such causes . ] So far Veron , who is most favourable to you , in narrowing our faith . R. Thus far you have resolved me : but I must crave somewhat more . Qu. I. Are there no Essential Constitutive parts of your Religion , more necessary than the Integrals and Accidentals ? Have you no description for it , but that It is Divine Revelation proposed by the Church ? The Doctrine of Sacrificing was a Divine Revelation to Adam , and the difference of clean and unclean Beasts to Noah , and the Jewish Law was Gods Revelation to Moses and them : And yet I suppose Christianity is somewhat different from all these . Is not Christianity your Religion ? Hath Christianity no Constitutive special Essence , but only the Genus of Divine Revelation which is common to that with all other Divine Revelations ? And what if you add [ to a Prophet or Apostle ] ? Was Agabus Prophesie of Paul , or Pauls of the event of the shipwrack , &c. essential to Christianity ? Hath Christianity no Essence ? Or is all Divine Revelation essential to it ? P. You take advantage of the disagreement of our Doctors . You know that some few acknowledg distinct fundamentals ; and some deny the distinction in your sense : And most of us say , that no man can enumerate the things necessary to all , but that it dependeth upon mens various capacities , educations , and means of knowing . And in sum , that no more is necessary to all to be explicitly believed , but that Gods Revelations are true ; and that All are Gods Revelations which the Church proposeth as such . You may take our judgement much from him that cometh nearest to you , whom I have heard you much praise , as most moderate and judicious , viz. Dr. H. Holden Anal. fid . l. 1. c , 5. Lect. 2. p. 53. [ Divines disputing of the necessity of points to be believed , do commonly tend this way , to denote the Articles of things revealed , the explicite and express belief whereof , is ( as they opine ) altogether necessary to all Christians . The resolution of which question is among them so doubtful and uncertain , as that they are in this ( as ☞ they are in all things else ) distracted and divided into various Opinions : which they that care for them , may seek : To me they are as Nothing , while the Authors of them profess , that they have nothing of Certainty . Yea , to one that meditateth the matter it self , laying by all preoccupation , it is most clearly manifest , that the Resolution of this question is not only unprofitable , that I say not pernicious , ( as it is handled by Divines ) ; but also vain and impossible . It is unprofitable , because no good accrueth by it to souls . ☞ It is pernicious , while Divines for the most part assert , that only One or Two Articles , yea , ( as some say ) no singular Article at all , is necessary to be believed of all by an explicite faith . For hence ( however the truth of the matter be ) the colder Christians taking occasion , do little care to obtain that degree of Knowledge in the Mysteries of faith , which they might commodiously and easily attain . It is Impossible , seeing it is Manifest , that no particular Rule or Points to be believed , or Number of Articles can in this Matter be given or assigned , which shall be wholly common and necessary to all Christians : For this dependeth on every individual mans natural capacity , means of instruction , and all the other circumstances of each mans life and disposition , which are to each man so special , that we can determine of nothing at all that is common to all . But I handle the Necessity of points to be Believed in a far other sense : For the Articles of the Christian faith , which I now call necessary , I do not at all understand to be such as all and every one must distinctly know , or hold by explicite assent ; But I mean only such , the belief of which is accounted universally by the whole Catholick Church , so substantial and essential , as that he that will deservedly be esteemed , and truly be a member of it , must needs adhere to them all at least Implicitely and Indirectly : that is , by believing whatsoever the holy and Universal Church doth Catholickly believe and teach as a Revealed Doctrine and Article of divine faith . And therefore he is for that cause to be removed from its Communion and Society , who shall pertinaciously and obstinately deny the least of them , much more if he maintain the contrary , while he knoweth and seeth that it is the Universal sentence of that Church , that we must adhere to that as an Article of faith . And in this sense I will henceforth use the word Necessity . R. This might have been said in fewer and plainer words , viz. That your Divines herein do commonly err , and that perniciously , and yet that indeed he is of the same mind ; viz. that It is impossible to name the Articles necessary to be believed explicitely of all , because each mans divers capacity , means and circumstances diversifie them to each : But that only this one thing is explicitely to be believed , [ That whatsoever the Holy and Universal Church doth Catholickly believe and teach as a Revealed Doctrine and Article of faith , is true . ] And therefore that no man must pertinaciously deny any thing which he knoweth the Church so holdeth . So that nothing is necessarily to be believed actually and indeed , but Gods and the Churches Veracity . P. Another of ours that cometh as near you as most , openeth this more fully , Davenport alias Fr. a Sancta Clara , De. Nat. Grat. p. 111 , &c. [ As to the Ignorance of those things that are of necessity of Means , or End , there is difference among the Doctors : For Soto 4. d. 5. q. 5. & l. de Nat. & Grat. c. 12. & Vega l. 6. c. 20. sup . Trid. hold that now in the Law of Grace there is no more explicite faith required , than in the Law of Nature . Yea , Vega ib. & Gabriel 2. d. 21. q. 2. ar . 3. & 3. d. 21. q. 2. think that in the Law of Nature , and in Cases in the Law of Grace , some may be saved with only natural knowledge , and that the habit of faith , is not required . Whom Horantius terms men of great name , and will not accuse of heresie . I would this great mans modesty were more frequent with modern Doctors . Yea , Alvarez de aux . disp . 56. with others , seemeth to hold , that to justification there is not at all required the knowledge of a supernatural object ( or the supernatural knowledge of the object . ) Others hold , That both to Grace and Glory is required an explicite belief of Christ . Bonav . 3. d. 25 , &c. Others , that at least to salvation is an explicite belief of the Gospel or of Christ , though not to Grace or Justification . And this is common in the Schools , as Ferera shews that followeth it : And for this Opinion Scotus is cited — But I think he holdeth , that explicite belief of Christ or the Gospel , is not of necessity of means as to Grace or Glory , as 4. d. 3. q. 4. What is plainer than that now — men may be saved without the explicite belief of Christ — And I plainly think its Scotus's and the common opinion , which Vega followeth , and Faber 4. d. 3. and Petigianis very well , and of the Thomists Bannes 2.2 . q. 2. a. 8. Canus and others : Yea , the Trent Council seemeth to favour it , Sess . 6. c. 4. — p. 114. So Corduba , Medina , Bradwardine . — ☞ And such ( as have no explicite faith in Christ ) are not formally without the Church . This way go Victoria in 4. Relect. 4. tit . Richard de Villa med . 3.25 . a. 3. q. 1 , &c. Well saith Petigianis 2. d. 35. q. 1. a. 9. that if there were a simple old woman to whom some false Opinion were preached by a false Prophet ( e. g. that the substance of Bread remaineth with the body of Christ in the Sacrament ) and she believe it : Doth she sin by this ? No. — p. 119. Yea , if she so err through piety , thinking that the Church so believeth , perhaps she should merit . — p. 120. For my part I think that the Vulgar committing themselves to the instruction of the Pastors , trusting of their knowledge and goodness , if they be deceived , it will be taken for invincible ignorance , or at least probable , ( as Herera ) which excuseth from faultiness . — Yea , some Doctors give so much to the Instruction of Pastors , that have the care of the Sheep , that if they should teach , that ☞ hic & nunc God would be hated , the rude Parishioner were bound to believe him : which yet I think false — p. 123. It seemeth at this day to be the common judgement of the Schools and Divines , that the Laity erring with their Doctors or Pastors are altogether excused from all fault ; ☞ Yea , oft times so materially erring do merit for the act of Christian obedience which they owe their Pastors : as you may see in Valent. To. 3. disp . 1. q. 2. p. 5. and others . So Angles 2. d. 22. q. 2. dub . 7. Vasqu . p. 2. disp . 121. In case they never doubted of the Veracity of their Prelates — Much more saith Sancta Clara there , to prove that the ignorant Protestants here may be saved ; citing further to his end , Zanchez in Decal . l. 2. c. 1. n. 8. Alph. a Castro , Simanca , Argon , Tanner , Faber , Eman●sa , Rozell . And out of Argon tells us when Faith is sufficiently proposed , viz. [ When faith is so confirmed by Reasons , holiness of life , the confutation of the contrary errors , and by some signs , as that Reason it self beginneth prudently to prescribe , that the matters of faith heard are to be believed , and the contrary Sect is false . ] p. 125. And probl . 16. p. 127. Whether men may be blamelesly ignorant of the Law of Nature and the Decalogue ? The common opinion is that they may ; not of the first principles , but 1. Of the easie conclusions for some time , and of the remoter conclusions for a longer time : Such are the Commandments of the Decalogue as to the substance of the act ; as in some lying , theft , fornication , manslaughter ( in Will at least ) &c. R. Qu. II. But do you think that men may not as invincibly and inculpably be unacquainted with the Authority of the Pope and Roman Councils or Church , as you say they may be ignorant of Christ , and the Law of Nature ? I instance in the millions of the Abassme Christians , who for above a thousand years never heard from the Pope or his emissaries . P. That cannot be denyed : For they have not the necessary means . R. How then do you make your Churches proposal to be the necessary point to be Explicitely believed of all ? P. We do not mean it of all that Will be saved : For you hear that some may be saved without any explicite belief of Christ . But we mean it of all that will be in the Church , and be saved there . R. But do you not hold and say , that out of the Church there is no salvation ? P. Some say so : and some say that It is rare out of the Church . R. But are the Ethiopian Christians out of the Church ? P. They are out of the true Church , being Schismaticks . R. Why said your Author before , that Infidels were not formally out of the Church who are invincibly ignorant ? P. But other Doctors are of another opinion . R. But Christ is the Saviour of his body : Are not those of the Church who are saved , or in a state of salvation ? What hold you of that ? P. Some say , They are all of the Church : and others that Christ saveth more than his Church : And some say , that They are of the Church Regenerate , but not of the Church Congregate . But few own this , because it is your distinction : as of a visible and invisible Church . R. Qu. III. But above all , I would know of you , what you mean by the Catholick Church , whose proposal is necessary to the being of faith ? P. We mean the Roman Catholick Church : that is , the Pope and his Subjects . R. Do you mean the Pope without a General Council , or a General Council without the Pope ? or only both agreeing and conjunct ? R. You take advantage of our differences : but those do but shew , that this is no point of faith . Some hold that the Pope alone may serve : and some , that the Pope in a Provincial Council : and some that a General Council without him : But you heard Veron taketh in the Council , and it is no true Council without the Pope : And therefore the surest opinion saith , that it must be both in Concord . R. But what is the Vniversal Church whose Practice is made sufficient instead of , or without a General Council ? P. It is the whole Roman Church real , distinct from the Representative . R. Is it the Clergy only , or the Laity only ; or must it be both ? P. Both , but not equally ; but in their several places . R. Must it be All the Church , without any excepted ? Or only the greater part ? P. These are points not agreed of , and therefore not of faith . Some say that it must be so many as that the dissenters be not considerable . But how many are considerable or inconsiderable is undetermined . Others say , It may be the minor part that practise , so be it the rest do not contradict it , or do contrarily . R. I will trouble you with no more such questions , ( though I have a multitude which should be here resolved ) for I perceive that we must expect nothing but a Maze of uncertainties and confusion . We are next in order to Agree upon our common principles which must be supposed in our following Dispute : For they that Agree in nothing , are uncapable of disputing of any thing ; seeing all conclusions of which we doubt , must be drawn from more evident truths , of which we are less doubtful , and resolved into a conceded Principle . PART II. The Principles which Papists and Protestants are agreed in : And therein the full ●ustification of all the Protestants Religion . THe first common Principle : That we are Men , having Reason , and Free-will , and Sense ; whose Natural way of knowing things sensible , is by the perception of our senses , having no way of greater Certainty . R. I take it for a common principle , that we are Men , having Reason , and Free-will , and Sense : whose natural way of Knowing things sensible , is by the perception of our senses ▪ And therefore that our rightly constituted or sound senses , with their due media , about their proper objects are to be trusted ; being either certain , or we have no certainty . P. I know what you intend : I grant it as you express it . R. It must then be granted us , that there is true Bread and Wine in substance remaining after the words of the Mass-Priests consecration . P. Yes : When you can prove , that the consecrated Bread and Wine are the proper objects of sense : which we deny ; they being not now Bread and Wine . R. Is it by the Perception of sense that you deny it ? or by other means ? P. No : It is by Faith and Reason which are above Sense . R. Now you come to deny the Principle which you granted : Sense is the perceiver of its own objects : No Faith , no Reason can perceive them , but by sense : And if due sensation perceive them , and Faith deny them , then Faith denyeth sense to be the proper natural perceiver of its objects , and our judgement of things sensible to be such as must follow that perception . But we must dispute of this anon , and will not now anticipate it . Only remember , that if you deny sense which is the first Principle , no mortal man is capable of disputing with you , there being no lower principle to which we can have recourse , and resolve our differences . The second Principle : That there is One only God , Infinite in Being , Power , Wisdom and Goodness ; Our Owner , Ruler and Chief Good ; Most Holy , Just and True , and therefore cannot lye ; but is absolutely to be believed , and trusted , and loved . R. I need not repeat it : Do you not Agree with us in this ? P. Yes : Heathens ( that are sober ) and Christians are agreed in it . R. You grant then , that this may be known by them that are no subjects of the Pope . Remember anon that we are not to be blamed for Believing God. The third Principle : That the whole frame of Nature within us and without us ( within our reach ) is the signal Revelation of God and his Will to man ; called ( Objectively ) The Light and Law of Nature . R. I suppose that this also may pass for a common granted Principle . P. Yes , as you express it : If we agree not of the Light and Law of Nature , we come short of Infidels , and meer Natural men . R. Observe then , that we are Justified by your principles , for Believing and Trusting Gods Natural Revelation . The very first part of which is made to our senses : By Natural Evidence God sheweth us that Bread is Bread. P. Yes : when sense is sound , and objects and media just , and God doth not contradict sense by supernatural Revelation . The fourth Principle : That Natural Revelation is before supernatural , and sense before faith , and we are Men ( in order of Nature at least ) before we are Christians , and the former is still presupposed to the later . R. This also I suppose is a granted Principle . P. It is so : But see that you raise no false consequents from it . R. I conclude from it , that He that denyeth the perception of sense to be the certain way of Judging of things sensible , denyeth all the Certainty of faith , and subverteth the very foundations of it : And that we are justified for our Assenting first to Gods Natural Revelations . It is God that made my senses and understanding , and God that made the object and media , as Bread and Wine , and therefore God deceiveth me , if I be deceived in taking it for Bread and Wine after Consecration . But God is to be believed , in his first Revelations . P. You vainly call Sensation , and Intellection or Knowledge of things sensible by the name of Believing . R. We will not vainly contend about the Name , if we agree of the Thing : But this leadeth me to another Principle . The fifth Principle : That the Knowledge of things fully sensible hath more quieting , satisfying Evidence , than our Belief of supernatural Revelations alone , as made to us by a Prophet or Apostle : And that where all the sound senses of all men living do agree about their near and proper sensible object , there is the most satisfying Evidence of all . R. I suppose that we are all agreed also in this principle . P. As you word it we are : For our Divines distinguish of Evidence and Certainty : and are so far from saying that Faith hath more Evidence than Sense and Knowledge , that it is ordinary with them to say , that this is the difference between Faith and Knowledge , and that faith hath not Evidence : but yet it hath no less certainty . R. Some men use words first to sport themselves out of their understandings , and then to use others to the same game . Evidence is nothing but the Perceptibility or Cognoscibility of a thing : by which we call it Knowable ; which is the Immediate necessary qualification of an Object of Knowledge . Certainty is either Objective , which is nothing but this same Cognoscibility or Evidence as in a satisfying degree : Or it is Subjective or Active , which is nothing but the Infallible or True , and quieting satisfactory knowledge of a Truth . Where the Certainty of Object and Act concurr : For no man can be certain of a lye or untruth : For to be Certain , is to be certain that it is True : Those therefore would befool the world , who would perswade men , that a clear and confident perception of an untruth , or confident error , is Certainty . There may be Objective Truth and Certainty of the Matter , where there is not in us an Active or Subjective Certain Knowledge of it : But there can be no Active Certainty of an Objective Vncertainty , or certain Knowledge of a lye . Now if you mean that faith hath Objective Certainty without Evidence of Certainty , or Ascertaining Evidence , that is , but to say and unsay : It hath Certainty and no Certainty : For this Certainty and Evidence is all one . But if you mean that Faith hath an Active Subjective Certainty without an Objective Certainty in the Matter , you speak an impossibility and contradiction : as if you said , [ I clearly see a thing invisible or without light . ] P. Do you think that our Divines knew not what they said , when they say that to believe without Evidence maketh faith meritorious ? R. The old asserters of this meant the same that Christ meant , when he saith to Thomas [ Blessed are they that have not seen , and yet have believed . ] There is a sensible Evidence , and an Intelligible Evidence . Faith hath not an Immediate sensible Evidence ; that is , we believe things unseen , and above sense : And this is their meaning : We see not God , Christ , Heaven , Angels , &c. But faith hath alwaies Intelligible Evidence of Verity ; and ( as our Mr. R. Hooker saith ) can go no further than it hath such Evidence . However , I appeal to any that have not been disputed out of their wits , whether , If God would give us as full a sight of Heaven and Hell , and Angels and Blessed souls , as we have of the Bread and Wine before us , and as full a Hearing of all that they say , in justification of Holiness , or Lamentation of sin , and as full sensible acquaintance with the world we go to , and our title to it , as we have with this world , I say , whether this would not be more ascertaining and satisfactory to us , and banish all doubts , more than our present faith doth ? I love not to hear men lie as for God , and talk and boast against their experience , as if the interest of faith required it . Things revealed to faith Are Certain and Infallible . But that is because we have certain evidence 1. That God cannot lie ; 2. And that God revealed them ; and so that they are True. But if we did see , feel , taste , &c. we should be more certain . Else why is it said , that we now know but enigmatically and as in a glass ; and as children ; but hereafter shall see as face to face , and know as we are known , when faith is done away , as being more Imperfect than Intuition . We have evidence to prove , that the Revelation made to David , Isaiah , Jeremiah , Peter , Paul , &c. were of God , and that their words are by us to be believed , &c. But to see , hear , taste , feel , &c. would be a more quieting Assurance . Therefore when all the sound senses of all men living , perceive after consecration , that there is Bread and Wine , this Certainty is , 1. in order antecedent to that of faith , and 2. by Evidence , more satisfying and assuring than that of meer faith , as to a prophets Revelation ; And therefore to reject it on pretence of faith , is a subversion of all natural methods of assurance ; and is but pretended , I think , by your selves . The sixth Principle . That except those Immediate Inspirations which none but the Inspired do Immediately and clearly perceive , we have no Revelations from God , but by signes ; which are created beings ; and have their several Natures , and so may be called Physical , though signifying Moral things . And thus far our natural and supernatural Revelations agree . R. Every being is either Vncreated ( which is God only ) or Created ( in a large sense , that is Caused : ) What God Revealed to Christ , Peter , Paul , &c. we have knowledge of , but by signes : In Scripture these signes are Words : These words signifie partly the mind of God , and the speakers or writers , and partly the matter spoken or written . When it is said , that It is impossible for God to lye , it can mean nothing to us , but that it is impossible that God should make us a deceitful sign of his will. The voice of an Angel , Prophet , Apostle , a thousand Miracles , &c. are but signes of the matter and of Gods will : And if God can ordinarily make false natural signes , we are left unassured that he cannot make false signes by an Angel , or a Prophet , or a Miracle . And so all faith is left uncertain . P. Then you will make God a lyar or deceiver whenever any man is deceived by natural signes . R. Not so : For men may deceive themselves by taking those for signes of a thing which are none , and so by misunderstanding them . And the Devil and bad men may promote this deceit . But whenever God giveth man so plain a sign of the Matter and his Will , as that no errour of an unsound sense , an unqualified object , a culpable or diseased fantasie or Intellect , interveneth , then if we are deceived it can be none but God that doth deceive us ; which cannot be , because he cannot lye . And as it is an unresistible argument against the Dominican doctrine of Physical Predetermination as absolutely necessary to all acts of natural or free agents , that If God physically predetermine every lyar to ivery lye , that is mentally conceived or uttered , then we have no certainty but he might do so by the Prophets and Apostles ; so is it as good an argument against Papists , that ▪ if he ordinarily deceive the senses of all sound men by a false appearance of things seeming sensible , he may do so also by the audible or legible words of a prophet . The seventh Principle . That he that will confute sense , and prove that we should not Judge according to its perceptions , must prove it by some more certain evidence that contradicteth it . R. I suppose you will not question this . P. No : The word or Revelation of God is a more certain evidence . R. How know you that there is any word of God , but by your senses ? P. But yet by sense I may get a certainty which is above that of things sensible . As I know by the world that there is a God , by a certainty above that of sense . R. 1. If that were so , yet if things sensible be your media , you destroy your Conclusion by denying them , and undermine your own foundation . 2. But it is not true : The knowledge of the Conclusion can be no stronger than that of the principles , even of the weaker of them . If you are in any uncertainty whether there be Sun , Moon , Heaven , Earth , Man , Beast , Heat , Cold or any Created sensible being , you must needs be in as much doubt whether there be a God that made them . The eighth Principle . That Believing or Assenting is Intellection of the Truth of something revealed , and therefore must have Intelligible Evidence of Truth in the thing believed . R. I know that Assiance or Trust as it is the act of the Will , reposing it self quietly on the Believed fidelity of God , is not Intellection . But the Assenting act is an Intellection or an Act of Knowledge of a Verity ; not as Science is narrowly confined to principles , but as Knowledge is taken in genere for notitia . So to believe is no other than to know that this is true , because God saith it . Joh. 6.69 . We believe and are sure that thou art that Christ , &c. Joh. 3.2 . We know that thou art a Teacher come from God , for no man could do such works , &c. Joh. 21.24 . We know that his testimony is true — See Rom. 7.14 . & 8.28 . 2 Cor. 5.1 . We know that if this earthly house , &c. 1 Tim. 1.8 . 1 Joh. 3.2 . Joh. 8.28 , 32. 1 Cor. 15.58 . We know that our Labour is not in vain , &c. Therefore your denying the certainty where the evidence is most notorious , and telling men of Meriting if they will but believe your Church , without any Evidence of certainty , is a meer cheat . The ninth Principle ▪ That Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Saviour of the World , and that Christianity is the true Religion , and Gods appointed sufficient way to Heaven , including Godliness , which is its final part . R. By Christianity I mean both our Believing , Loving and obeying Christ as the way to the Father , and our Believing , Loving and Obeying God our Father , as the end of Christs Mediation : The Knowledge of God and the Mediator being Eternal Life , Joh. 17.3 . And as Taking a man for my Physicion , is taking him , by his medicines to help me to my health , and so Health is finally included ▪ so taking Christ for my Saviour , is to take him by faith to be the means of bringing me to the Love of God and to Glory : And so I include Godliness in Christianity , and the Law of Nature in the Law of Grace . P. We are agreed on the truth of this : but not of the medium by which it must be made known to us . R. At the present I ask no more than that we agree in Christianity as the true and sufficient Religion and way to life . The tenth Principle . That Baptizing is our Christening : And that all that are truly Baptized are Christians , and members of the visible Church , untill they Apostatize or are justly excommunicate ( at least . ) P. I grant you all this as a common Principle with Christians . R. Then you grant us , 1. That our Religion is the True Religion ; of Gods appointment , sufficient to salvation : For it is Christianity , which you confessed to be such . 2. You grant that we are baptized into the true Catholick Church , which is the body of Christ . The eleventh Principle . That all that are truly Baptized have the pardon of all their sins , and have present right to salvation if they so die . R. I mean , that they that are Internally true Consenters to the baptismal Covenant , and are baptized , have all these benefits of Baptism : And that Infants have them as rightly dedicated to God and baptized : Do not you Consent to this ? P. Yes , you know we do . R. Then you fully grant , that all among the Protestants who in Infancy or at age are truly baptized are in a state of salvation : Why then would you make people believe that there is no salvation in our Churches , when you grant the right to all that are Baptized . P. But you are not Baptized by lawful Ministers . R. Take heed what you say : Your party holdeth that even Schismaticks and Hereticks Baptism is valid , if they have all that is essential to Baptizing in the doing of it : Yea that a lay mans , or womans baptizing is valid . If you deny it , I will shame you , by producing the common consent of your Doctors ; and your censure of Cyprian , and making the contrary doctrine to be a Heresie . P. But you have not all that is essential to Baptism , because you are not intentionally Baptized , into the true Catholick Roman Church : For while you are not subject to the Pope , you are not baptized into the Church : and therefore Bellarmine sheweth that indirectly we are obliged to the Pope by baptism ; which you intend not . R. Come , come , strive not against your knowledge . 1. If our Baptism have not all that is essential , why do you never rebaptize Protestants when they turn to you ? Do you not find that you condemn your selves ? 2. Why do not you your selves put the name of the Pope into your words of baptism ? 3. Doth your Tradition tell you that the ancient Churches did baptize men into a subjection to the Pope ? 4. Did any of the Primitive Christians baptize men into the name or subjection of Peter or any Apostle ? 5. Doth not Paul expresly renounce it as to himself and Peter , 1 Cor. 1.12 , 13 , 14 , 15. Every one of you saith , I am of Paul , and I of Apollo , and I of Cephas , and I of Christ : Is Christ divided ? Was Paul Crucified for you ? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul , &c. 6. Did not Christ himself tell us all that was Essential to baptism in his institution , Matth. 28 without making any mention of Peter or the Pope ? P. I cannot deny but our doctrine inferreth that all that are baptized among you have a true Sacrament , but not the Benefit of it , and so are not in a state of pardon and salvation : Or at least when you come to age , by refusing the Pope , you turn Hereticks and lose it . R. I know some of your divided writers say that we have Sacramentum , but not Rem Sacramenti : But 1. You say that a Character is imprinted by Baptism , and all sin done away , and the person in a state of life , unless he come feignedly ; which you will not charge on Infants , nor can you prove it by those of the Anabaptists themselves that are baptized at age . And saith Aquinas when the fiction ceaseth , the fruits of baptism are obtained . 2. And it will be long ere you will prove that to be baptized into the name of the Trinity is uneffectual , if we leave out the Pope . 3. And you will hardly make a man understand what you mean by the validity of the Baptism of Hereticks and Schismaticks , if it neither take the Baptized into the true Visible Church , nor the invisible ( or a state of saving grace ) . And as to Infants losing it as you say at age by Heresie . 1. Will you save all the Anabaptists , that are baptized at age ? If their baptism put them into a state of salvation , and they continue just of the same faith and mind that they were baptized in , sure that faith which put them in a state of salvation , will keep them in it ; or not be damning through defectiveness to morrow , which made them heirs of Heaven to day . But you cannot make your doctrines hang together . 2. And they that are Baptized in Infancy are baptized into the same faith which they continue in at age . The Minister intendeth no other : The Parents , Sponsors , &c. intend no other : And will that prove defective even to Salvation after , which was saving then ? 3. If Baptism make us Christians ; and if Christianity be the true Religion , sufficient in suo genere to salvation , then we that continue in the Christianity which we were baptized into , by your confession continue in the true saving Religion ; And this is all our Religion . P. It is not every one that owneth Christianity that shall be saved : Hereticks own it in general , and yet contradict it by their Heresies . R. It is every one that truly owneth Christianity in mind and will that shall be saved : else Christianity were not a saving sufficient Religion : The question is not whether objective Christianity or faith be sufficient to save him that believeth not , or is not subjectively a Christian ; nor whether the doctrine of faith be sufficient in omni genere : But whether it be a sufficient doctrine , or ob●ective faith , in suo genere ? If a Heretick deny any essential part of it , he believeth not that which he ( really , understandingly and prevalently ) denyeth . It is but the Name of Christianity , and not the Thing , which he owneth , who disowneth any of the essence . Our question is now whether our professed objective Faith be true and sufficient ? When you come to prove us heretical denyers of any of its essence , we will give you a sufficient answer . The twelfth Principle . That the Essence of our Religion or Christianity as Active and Saving , is Faith that worketh by Love : Or such a Belief in God the Father , Son and Holy Ghost , as is accompanied with a true devoting of our selves to him , by Love and willingness to obey his Laws , so far as we know them ; in opposition to the temptations of the world , the flesh and the Devil : And he that is truly such shall be saved . P. I grant that he that truly Loveth God , shall be saved : But a Protestant cannot truly love God , because he hath not true faith . R. Do you not agree and confess then , that If any Protestants do truly Love God , and are sincerely willing to obey his will , and to know it that they may obey it , such are of the true Religion and shall be saved , and that popery which denyeth their salvation is false ? P. If your false supposition were true , these false consequents would be true : But you are all deceived when you think that you sincerely Love God , and are willing to know and do his will. R. 1. Let all Protestants note this first , that you grant that none but ☞ falshearted Hypocrites , that are not what they profess to be , and Love not God , nor would obey him , should turn Papists . 2. And if a man cannot know his own Mind and Will , what he Loveth and what he is willing of , no not about his End and greatest concernments , how can he know when he Believeth aright ? Why do you trouble the world thus with your noise about Believing the Proposals of your Church , if a man cannot know whether he believe or not ? ☞ And he that cannot know what he Willeth , Chooseth or Loveth , can no more know what he believeth . For the Acts of the Will are more plenary and easily perceived . And do all Papists know their own Hearts or Minds , but no Protestants ? What would you expect but indignation and derision by such arguing as this , if you will go about the world and tell men , [ You none of you know your own Minds and wills , but we know them ; You think you Love God , and are willing to obey him ; but you are all mistaken , it is not so with you : but you must believe our Pope and his Council , and then you may know your own minds and hearts . ] They that believe you on these rates , deserve the deceit of believing you ; and punish themselves . The thirteenth Principle . That when Christ described all the Essence of Christianity , by our Believing in and being baptized into , the name of the Father , the Son and the Holy Ghost , the Apostles and first Pastors of the Churches , instructed people to understand the meaning of these three Articles ; And the ancient Creed called the Apostles , is the exposition of them , as to Belief : And that this Creed was of old the symbol of the true faith , by which men were supposed sufficiently qualified for baptism , and distinguished from Hereticks : which after was enlarged by occasion of heresies to the Nicene and Constantinopolitane Creed ; To which that called Athanasius's was added as a fuller explication of the doctrine of the Trinity : And he that believed all these , was taken for one of the true Christian Religion , which was sufficient in suo genere to salvation . P. All that was then Necessary to be explicitely believed , necessitate medii , was expressed in the Creeds ( if not more ) : But not all that is now necessary when the Church hath proposed more . R. 1. Some of you say , no more is necessary ut medium , but to believe that God is , and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him : Others say that the chief articles of the Creed also are commonly necessary : And in your discord we lay no great weight on your Opinions . 2. But is not Christianity the same Thing now as it was at the beginning ? Is Baptism altered ? Hath not a Christian now the same definition as then ? Are not Christs promises and the Conditions the same ? Shall not he that was a Christian then , be saved if he were now alive ? May not we be Christians , and saved by the same Constitutive Causes which made men Christians , and saved them in the primitive Churches ? Subvert not Christianity , and confound not the Church , and cheat not poor souls , by labouring to hide the essence of Christianity , and such plain important truths . You cannot deny our faith to be true , without condemning the ancient Church and Christianity it self : While we aloud profess that the Christian faith explained in all the ancient Creeds , is the faith which we own , in its Essentials explicated . The fourteenth Principle . That the Books which the Protestants commonly receive as Canonical Scriptures , are in the agreeing Original Copies , as to the very words , and in true Translations as to the sence , the most true Infallible word of God. R. I grant that where the Copies disagree by various Readings , we are no more sure that any of them is the word of God , than we are sure , that such a Copy is righter than all that differ from it . But as long as the essence of Christianity on which our Salvation is laid , is in the Covenant of Grace , explained in Credondis in the Creed , and in Petendis , in the Lords Prayer , and in Agendis in the Decalogue as explained by Christ . And no one Duty or material doctrine of our Religion dependeth on the various Lections , but those texts that Agree are sufficient to establish them all ; yea , as Franc. à Sancta Clara system . fid . professeth , the ordinary Translations so agree , as that no material point of Religion doth depend on any of their differences ; It is as much as we assert , that the Agreeing Original Copies , and the sound-Translations , so far as they are such , are the True Infallible word of God ; the former both as to words and sence , and the later as to sence alone . Do you not grant this ? P. We grant the Scripture as you say to be Gods Infallible word ; But 1. You cannot know it to be so , because you take it not on the Roman Churches Authoritative Proposal ; 2. And you leave out part of it . R. 1. Whether we can know it , shall be tryed in due place . 2. And whether we have All of it , or enough , is another question , to be debated when you will. You grant us expresly that which we now desire ; which is the Infallible Truth of our Canonical Scripture . And this is All our Religion , containing not only the Essentials , but all the Integrals , and Accidentals needful to be recorded . So that All the Protestants Religion is confessed to be Infallibly True. And from hence further note , that in all our disputes , you are obliged to be the defendants , as to Truth : For we deny the Truth of much of your Religion , but you deny not the Truth of one word of ours : but only the Plenitude or Sufficiency . P. The name of a Protestant was never known till Luthers time : And the occasion of it was a particular Protestation of the German Princes , and not directly a Protesting against Popery . R. It is not Names but Religion which we dispute of . And it is that which each party Professeth to be their Religion . Therefore you must take our Profession or you change the subject of the dispute . And we profess , that the Law of Nature ( which no sober man questioneth ) and the Scriptures , are All our Religion . Therefore if you please you shall suppose that the name Protestant were not now in the world : It doth not signifie our Religion . But we now use it to signifie our Protesting against Popery , or that we agree in substance , and in rejecting Popery , with those that made that particular Protestation mentioned by you . Names are oft given from accidents ; as Africanus , Germanicus , Britannicus , &c. to several Roman Captains ; when yet their Humanity was the same before they were so named . P. Turks , Socinians , Quakers , &c. Protest against Popery : It seems then they are Protestants too ; and your companions . R. 1. Thus some men study to deceive , by turning from the question to another . Our question I tell you is Whether the Religion of the Protestants be Infallible ? and not , Whence is their name ? 2. But by a Protestant we mean only one that taketh the Scripture for the Rule , and Christianity for the Essence of his Religion : Which no one doth that denyeth any essential part of it . If we do so , prove it , and you shall have our answer . How do you judge of any man among your selves that taketh Gods word proposed by your Church for his Religion , and yet mistaketh the Church in any point : As Durandus that thought the matter of Bread continues , whom Bellarmine yet denyeth to be an Heretick . So is it with any among us that mistake the sence of Scripture in some such point . When a Name is put upon any person or party from a common accident , you may if you will call all by that name which that accident agreeth to : And so Papists are called by some Non-conformists now in England , because they Conform not : But the world knoweth well enough that it is Protestants which are commonly meant by that name , and not Papists , Quakers , Seekers , &c. though these conform not . And so you may say if it please your self that Turks , Jews , Heathens , Socinians , Quakers , Ran●ers , are Protestants , because they Protest against , or reject Popery : But the world knoweth who is meant by the Name , Even Christians rejecting proper Popery . And for my part , I deal openly with you , I care not if the name Protestant were utterly cast aside ; If any man be so deceived by it as 1. Either to think that it signifieth the Essence of our Religion ( unless you mean as we Protest for Christianity . ) 2. Or that we take those called Protestants for the whole Catholick Church , they make it an occasion of their own deceit : Names of distinction are used , because men know not else readily how to speak intelligibly of one another without circumlocutions : And then cometh the Sectarian , and taketh his Party , for all the Church ( at least which he may lawfully Communicate with ) , and the name of his party to notifie his Religion . And then comes the crafty Papist , and pretends from hence that such a named Religion is new ; and asketh you , where was there any ( e. g. ) Protestants before Luther ? My Religion is naked Christianity , the same as is where the name of a Protestant is not known , and as was before it was known ; and as if the name of the Pope had never been known . But now the Pope and his Monarchical Vsurpation over all the world , are risen and known , I am one of those that protest against them , as being against Christianity which is my Religion ; But so as to addict my self to the opinions of no man or party that opposeth them , wholly and absolutely and beyond evidence of truth : I take the Reformed Churches , to be the soundest in the world : But I take their Confessions to be all the Imperfect expressions of men ; and the Writings of Protestant Divines to be some more clear and sound , and some more dark , empty , and less sound , and in many things I differ from many of them . Choose now whether you will call me a Protestant or not ; I tell you my Religion , which is simple Christianity : Names are at your own Will. I could almost wish that there were no name known besides that of CHRISTIAN as notifying our faith and Religion , in the Christian world ( Though as notifying Heresie and sin , there must be proper names , as in Rev. the name Nicolaitans is used ) . Even the word Catholick had long a narrower sense in the Empire with many than I now own it in . Though as it signifieth One that is of the Church Vniversal , loveth Vniversally all true Christians , and hath Communion with them in Faith , Love , and Hope , so I like it , and am A CATHOLICK CHRISTIAN . I dispute for nothing else ; I perswade this person here in Doubt , to nothing else ; but 1. To hold fast to true and meer Christianity ; 2. To Reject all in Popery or any other Sect that is Evidently against it ; 3. To suspend his belief of all that 's doubtful , and to receive nothing as a part of Divine faith or Religion , till he be sure that indeed it is of God. And now these Principles being supposed , let us proceed , and try whether Popery be of God or not . PART III. The Protestants Reasons against Popery . D. I Have heard what you have said in stating the Protestants Religion : I now expect to hear what Reasons you have against that which you call Popery : And afterwards that you prove all that you charge upon it . But I adjure you first that you say nothing but what you believe in your conscience to be the truth , as one that looketh to be judged for it . R. With many Papists confident and vehement protestations go instead of Arguments , and we oft hear them say , [ If this be not true , I am content to be torn in a thousand pieces : We will seal it with our blood : We will lay our salvation on it : And do you think we have not souls to save ? &c. ] Which is much like as if they would end all Controversies by laying Wagers that they are in the right , or by protesting that they are honester and credibler men than their adversaries : And it is no more than a Quaker or other such Sectary will say : the most proud and ignorant being usually the most confident : But yet though I expect not that you should receive any thing from me , upon Protestations , but upon Proofs , I will here promise you that I will charge nothing on the Papists , but what in my Conscience I am verily perswaded to be true . The Reasons which resolve me against Popery are these and such like . I. Reason , Their Doctrine of Transubstantiation is so notoriously false and inhumane , even contrary to the fullest ascertaining evidence that mankind can expect on earth , ( viz. for all men on pain of damnation to believe , that there is no Bread , and no Wine , when all the soundest senses of any men in the world , do perceive Bread and Wine , by seeing it , tasting it , feeling it , smelling it , and by the notorious effects ; and all this built upon no Revelation of God , no Reason at all , nor any true consent of the Primitive Church , but clean contrary to them all ; ) that I solemnly profess , that I find it an utter Impossibility to believe it : And it often puts me to a doubt , Whether it be possible for any mortal man unfeignedly and fully to believe it , and Whether there be really any such Papist in the world : or Whether most do not for carnal respects take on them to believe it , when they do not ; or rather the Vulgar understand their words , as not really excluding the true being of Bread and Wine ; and the rest only somewhat overawing their own reason with a reverence of their Church , so far as not to contradict , or so far as notionally to own it , when they do not from the heart believe the thing . So many contradictions , absurdities , and impieties are to be by them believed with it , that I am sure no man that understandeth them , can possibly believe them all . And all this must be done by Miracles , stupendious miracles , daily or common miracles , which every Priest can do at his pleasure , and never fail , sober or drunken , greater than raising a man from the dead ; so that every beastly , sordid , ignorant Priest , shall do more miracles by far , than ever Jesus Christ did in all his life on earth , as far as we know by the holy Records , ( if he live as long ) . He that can believe all this , may next believe , that there is neither Earth under his feet , nor the Firmament over his head , nor Water , nor Air , nor any other Creature , and that he hath no being himself . II. Reason : The Faith or Religion of the Papists , as described by themselves , is so far from Infallibility , as that it is utterly uncertain , unintelligible , and meer contradiction and confusion ; and a changeable thing ; so that no man knoweth whether he have it or not , and whether he have it all ; But whoever hath it , he hath certainly a hodge-podge of truth and falshood . III. Reason . Their Papacy , which essentiateth their Church , is a horrid Usurpation of Christs own Prerogative , and of an Office to do that which is incompaparably above the Natural Power or Capacity of any mortal man ; even to be the Apostle and Governour of the whole world ( of Christians at least ) ; To take Charge of all the souls on earth ; to teach and call those that are uncalled , and to Rule those that are baptized : even at the Antipodes , and in all those unknown or inaccessible parts of the world , which he hath no knowledge of : A far more arrogant undertaking , than to be the Civil Monarch of all the earth ; and utterly impossible for him to perform , and which never was performed by him . IV. Reason . The said Papacy is an arrogant Usurpation of the Power of all the Christian Princes and Pastors upon earth , or of a Power over them , never given by Christ : It setteth up a Kingdom in a Kingdom , and taketh from Pastors the power which Christ gave them , over their particular flocks . V. Reason . The said Papacy is a meer humane Institution : They confess themselves , that it is not of Divine faith that the Bishop of Rome is St. Peters Successor by Divine Right : It is no article of their own faith : But History fully assureth us , that it was but in the Roman Empire , that the Roman Bishop was made Supream : as the Archbishop of Canterbury is in England : And that he standeth on the same humane foundation as the other four Patriarchs of the Empire did . And that their General Councils were called by the Emperours , and were called General only with respect to that Empire . And there never was such a thing as a General Council of all the Christian world , nor ever can be : And that there never was such , is most notorious yet by the Names subscribed to all the Councils . But they abuse the world , and claim that power over all the Christians on earth , which one Prince gave his subject-Prelates in his Empire : As if the General Assembly of Scotland or France should pretend to be a General Council of the world , and the Archbishop of Canterbury should call himself Archbishop of all the Church on earth , and claim the government of it . VI. Reason : The said Papacy hold their claim of Supream Government as by Gods appointment ( though they confess as before said , that it is not de fide , that the Pope succeedeth Peter by Divine right ) and this notoriously Contrary to the Judgement and Tradition of the far greatest part of the Churches in the world : General Councils ( such as they had ) and the sense of the greatest part of Christians have determined against the Papal claime . And Tradition condemneth them to this day , while they plead Tradition . VII . Reason : It is Treason against Christ for the Papists who are but a Sect , and not the third part of the Christians in the world , to call themselves the whole Church , and unchurch all the rest , and seek to rob Christ of the far greatest part of his Kingdom , by denying them to be such : As if they would deny two third parts of this Kingdom to be the Kings . They are Sectaries and Schismaticks by this arrogant dividing from all the rest , and appropriating the name and priviledges of the Church to themselves alone . VIII . Reason : By making an unlawful and Impossible Condition and Center of Church Vnion , they are the greatest Schismaticks in all the world : The greatest Dividers of the Church upon pretence of Vnity : As he would be a divider of this Kingdom , who would set up a Vice-King without the Kings authority , and say that none that subject not themselves to him , shall be taken for subjects of the King. IX . Reason : They studiously brand themselves with Satans mark of malice , or uncharitableness and cruelty to mens souls : while they sentence to damnation two third parts of the Christian world , because they will not be the subjects of their Pope : And they think their way to Heaven is safest , because they are bolder than us in damning other Christians : Whereas Love is the mark by which Christs Disciples must be known to all . X. Reason : They are inhumanely cruel to mens bodies : And this is their very Religion : For the Council at the Laterane under Innocent the third decreed , that those that believe not , or deny Transubstantiation are Hereticks , and all Temporal Lords shall exterminate them from their Dominions : That is , no man shall be suffered to live under any Christian Lord , that will not renounce all his senses , and profess that he believeth that they are all deceived by God himself ; which is not only to renounce their Humanity , but their Animality or sense it self . So that no men indeed , are to be suffered to live , but only such as deny themselves to be men : What Heathens , what Turks , did ever exercise such Inhumane fury ? Besides their burning and tormenting men as Hereticks that will not do all this and more , and will not say as they require them . XI . Reason : Their Church indeed is invisible , while they deny it , and an unknown thing : For , 1. Men are forced into it by such bloody Laws , as that they cannot rationally be known to be Consenters : 2. And they have no certain faith to constitute a Church-member : For they hold that his obligation to believe , is according to his inward and outward means , of which no man can possibly judge : And so no man can know whether himself or another have that faith which is required as necessary to salvation . And many of them say , That they that believe not in Christ , have saving faith , and are in the Church , if they had not sufficient means . XII . Reason : The Papacy doth intolerably tyrannize over Kings , and teach such Doctrines of Perjury and Rebellion , as their very Religion , as is not in the practice of it to be endured in any Kingdom ; nor dare they fully practise it : The Crowns and Lives of Princes being at the mercy of the Pope ; As the said Laterane Council sheweth . XIII . Reason : Their Church is oft Essentially unholy , heretical and wicked , because the Pope is often so , who is an Essential part of it : And therefore it is not the holy Catholick Church . General Councils have upon examination judged their Popes to be Hereticks , Schismaticks , Adulterers , Murderers , Simonists , yea , guilty of Blasphemy or Infidelity it self . And the Church cannot be Holy , whose Essential part is so unholy . XIV . Reason : Their Churches succession is so notoriously interrupted , and their Papacy so often altered in its causes , as that it is become a confounded and a meer uncertain thing . So many notorious or judged Hereticks , Simonists , Murderers , Sodomites , Adulterers have possessed the Seat , who were therefore uncapable , that the line of succession must needs be interrupted by them . And so many wayes have they been made or elected , sometimes by the people , sometimes by the City-Presbyters , sometimes by Emperours , sometimes by Cardinals , sometimes by Councils , that if any one way of Election be necessary , they have lost their Papacy long ago . If no one way be necessary , then the Turk may make a Pope . XV. Reason : Their Church called One , is really two in specie ; one Headed by a Pope , and another by a General Council : For while the Head or Supream Ruler is an Essential part , and one part of the people own one Head and another part own another Head , ( as they do ) the Churches thus constituted cannot be One. And also de individuo there have been long two or three Popes at once , and consequently two or three Churches : And to this day none knoweth which was the right . XVI . Reason : They plead for a Church which never had a being in the world ; that is , All Christians Headed by one Pope ; When all the Christian world did never take him for their Head , nor were governed by him to this day . XVII . Reason : They dreadfully injure the holy Scriptures , as if Jesus Christ , and all the Prophets and Apostles in all those Sacred Records , had not had skill or will to speak intelligibly , and plainly to deliver us the doctrines necessary to salvation : But they make their Voluminous Councils more intelligible and sufficient ; as if they had done better than Christ and his Apostles : And when men must only Discern Gods Laws , and Judge Causes by the Law , they make themselves Judges of the Law it self , that is , of God the Judge of all , and of the Law by which they must be judged . XVIII . Reason : There is no other Sect of Christians under Heaven which hath so many differences among themselves , or have written so many Books against one another as the Papists : And though many of them are of great importance , yea , some are about the very Essence or Constitutive Head of their Church , yet have they no handsomer way to palliate all by , than by saying that these are but Opinions , and no Articles of faith , and the Infallible Judge dare not decide them : No though it be diversity of Expositions of Gods own Word , yet Commentators still differ without any hope of a decision , as if Gods Word were not to be believed , but were only the matter of uncertain Opinion , till the Pope and Council have expounded it , and no more Scripture is de fide than they expound . XIX . Reason : Perjury is made the very Character of their Church , or the brand by which it is stigmatized ; As is visible 1. In the Trent Oath imposed on their Clergy , which whoever taketh he is immediately perjured : and 2. By their disobliging men from Oaths and Vows ; even the Subjects of Princes from their Oaths of Allegiance , whenever the Pope shall excommunicate them , and give their Dominions to others , as is decreed Concil . Later . sub Innoc. 3. Can. 3. XX. Reason : They are guilty of Idolatry in their ordinary Worship by the Mass : while they worship Bread as their Lord God : Nor will it justifie them to say , that if they thought it to be Bread , they would not worship it : Any more than it would justifie Julian to say , that he would not worship the Sun , if he thought not that it was God : And they confess , that if it prove to be still Bread , their Worship will prove Idolatry : and we desire no other proof . And I am not able to justifie their sending God his Worship by a Cross , Crucifix , or other Image , as a medium cultum , from being a gross Violation of the second Commandment : ( which they leave out ) . XXI . Reason : Their Religion greatly tendeth to Mortifie Christianity , and turn it into a dead Image , by destroying much of its life and power : 1. By befriending Ignorance , and hiding the holy Scripture , forbidding all the people to read them in a known tongue without a special license : blaspheming Gods Word , as if so read , it had more tendency or likelihood to hurt men than to profit them , to damn them than to save them ; when they will say otherwise of all their own Vulgar postils and such like writings . 2. And by teaching the people a blind devotion , viz. to pray in an unknown tongue , and to worship God by words not understood . 3. And by making up a Religion much , if not far most , of external formalities , and a multitude of ceremonies , and the opus operatum of their various Sacraments ; As if God delighted in such actions as befit not the acceptance of a grave and sober man ; or as if Guilt and Sin would be wiped off , and charmed away into virtue and holiness , by such corporeal motions , shews and words . XXII . Reason : Their Religion , though it thus tend to gratifie the ungodly by deceitful remedies and hopes , yet is very uncomfortable to the godly . For , 1. By it no man can know that he is a true believer , and not a child of Hell , ( much less that he shall be saved : ) For they teach that no Divine can tell them what Articles are necessary to be believed to salvation : But they must be so many as are suited to every ones capacity , and means , during his life . And no man living can know that he understandeth and believeth as much as his capacity and means were in their kind sufficient to : Nay , there is no man that hath not been culpably ignorant of somewhat which he might have known . 2. Mens Sacramental receptions and comforts depend on the Intention of the Priest , which no man knoweth . 3. Almost all Godly men must expect the fire of Purgatory : and consequently none of them can be rationally willing to dye : Because this life is better than Purgatory ; and no man will desire to go from hence into the fire : And so by making all men unwilling to dye , it destroyeth a heavenly mind , and killeth faith , and hope , and love , and holy joy , and tempteth men to be worldlings , and to love this life better than the next . Yea , it tempteth men to be afraid of Martyrdom , lest ( dying in Venial sins , as all do ) they go to a Purgatory fire , more terrible than Martyrdom . XXIII . Reason : Their Doctrine is not only contrary to many express Texts of Holy Scripture , but also contrary to it self : One Pope and one Council having decreed one thing , and another the clean contrary . XXIV . Reason : All this evil is made more pernicious , by that professed Impenitence which is included in the conceit of their Churches Infallibility : For they that hold themselves Infallible , do profess never to Repent , of any thing in which they suppose themselves to be so . And as Repentance is the great evidence of the pardon of sin ; so Impenitency is that mortal sign of an unpardoned soul , without which no sin doth qualifie the sinner to be Excommunicated by man , or damned by God : And a sin materially less , is more Mortal unrepented of , than a greater truly lamented and forsaken . XXV . Reason : Every honest godly Protestant may be as sure that Popery is false , as he is that he is himself sincere , and Loveth God , and is truly willing to obey him . And no man can turn Papist , without self-contradiction , who is a true Christian , and an honest man : For by turning Papist he confesseth himself to be before a false-hearted hypocrite , who neither Loved God , nor sincerely desired to obey him , nor was true to his Baptismal Covenant . For it is a part of Popery to believe that none are in a state of salvation , but the Subjects of the Pope , or members of the Papal Church ; And consequently that no others have true Faith , Repentance or Love to God : Or else that God is false in promising salvation , to all that have true Faith , Repentance and Love to God. All therefore that know their own hearts to be truly devoted to God , are safe from Popery ; And seeing it is agreed on both sides , that none can or ought to turn Papists but ungodly hypocrites ( or Knaves ) no wonder if such are deluded by the most palpable deceits , and forsaken of God whom they perfidiously forsook . I will name you no more : If I make these , or any one of these good ( as I undertake to prove them all ) , you will see that I refuse not my self to be a Papist without sufficient cause . And yet by this charge you will see that I am none of their extream adversaries : I pass by abundance of Doctrinal differences , wherein by many they are most deeply charged : Not as Justifying them against all or most so charged on them , but 1. As giving you those Reasons which most move my self , and which I am most able to make good , and leaving every one to his proper work : 2. And as one that have certainly found out , that in many doctrinals seeming to be the matter of our widest difference , we are thought by many to differ much more than we do ; 1. The difference lying most in Words , and Logical Notions , and various wayes of mens expressing their conceptions : 2. And the animosity of men engaged in Parties and Interests against each other , causing most to take all in the worst sense , and to make each other seem far more erroneous than they are , and to turn differing names into damnable heresies : And 3. Few men having Will and Skill to state controversies aright , and cut off mistaken seeming differences : 4. And few having honesty and self-denyal enough to incurr the censure of the ignorant Zealots of their own party , by seeming but impartial and just to their adversaries . I mean in such points , as 1. The Nature of Divine faith , Whether it be a perswasion that I am pardoned , &c. 2. Of Certainty of salvation , 3. And Certainty of perseverance , 4. Of Sanctification , 5. Of Justification , 6. Of Good works , 7. Of Merit , 8. Of Predestination , 9. Of Providence and the Cause of Sin : 10. Of Free-will , 11. Of Grace , 12. Of Imputation of Righteousness , 13. Of Universal Redemption , 14. Of Original Sin , and divers others : In all which I cannot justifie them , but am sure that the difference is made commonly to seem to be that which indeed it is not : In the true impartial stating whereof Lud. Le Blanck hath begun to do the Christian Churches most excellent service , worthy our great thanks , and his bearing all the Censures of the ignorant . PART IV. The First Charge made good against Transubstantiation : In which Popery is proved to be the Shame of Humane Nature , Contrary to SENSE , REASON , SCRIPTURE and TRADITION , or the judgement of the Antient and Present Church ; devised by Satan to expose Christianity to the Scorn of Infidels . CHAP. I. The First Reason to prove Transubstantiation false . R. THe Papists Belief of Transubstantiation is , that There is a change made of the whole substance of the Bread into the body of Christ , and of the whole substance of Wine into his blood . Their opinion ( called their faith ) hath two parts : The first is , that There is no more true Proper Bread and Wine after the words of Consecration , Hoc est Corpus meum . The second is , that There is the true proper Flesh and Blood of Jesus Christ , under the species ( as they call them ) of Bread and Wine . It is the first that I shall now prove false : And you must not forget the state of the Question , which is not , Whether Christs Body and Blood be present ? But Whether there remain any Bread and Wine ? Arg. I. If there remain no Bread and Wine after the Consecration , then all the senses of all the sound men in the world are deceived , or all mens perception of these sensible things deceived , though there be due magnitude , site , distance of the object , a due abode , and a due medium and no depravation of the sense or intellect . But this Consequent is notoriously false , ( as shall be proved ) Therefore Popery is false . 1. That all mens senses perceive Bread and Wine , or all mens Intellects by their senses , will not be denyed . Not only Protestants , but Greeks , Mahometans , Heathens , Papists , all persons perception by sense is here the same : Therefore it is sound senses or else there are none sound in the world . 2. It is not one sense , but all . The eye seeth Bread and Wine : The hand and mouth feel it ; The palate tasteth it ; The smelling sense smelleth the Wine ; yea , and the ear heareth it poured out . 3. It is in due quantity , and not an undiscernable Atome . 4. It is near the sense , and neither by too much distance or nearness made insensible . 5. It hath a due abode , and is not made insensible by hasty passing by . 6. The air , and light , and all necessary media of perception are present . So that there is nothing wanting to the sensibility of the object . P. And how do you prove all or any of these ? For ought you know , the media may be undue , the magnitude , site , distance , abode , may not be what they seem to be ; and so you prove not what you say . R. All that I am now saying , is , that All men of sound sense , in the world have these immediate clear perceptions : The Intellect by sense perceiveth the object as quantitative , as near , &c. This you dare not deny : So that if this perception be false , and here be no Bread and Wine , then Sense or the Intellect discerning by the means of sense , is deceived . P. I say that the Senses or Intellects perception are deceived . R. I prove that they are not deceived ; or at least , that this kind of perception is the most certain that man on earth is capable of , and is to be trusted to by all men , and disbelieved or contradicted by none . Reason I. Because that humane nature is so formed , that the Intellect hath no other way of perceiving things sensible , but as they are first perceived by the sense , and by it transmitted to the Intellect ( or made its objects ) : And if about Spirits it hold not , that There is nothing in the Intellect , which was not first in the sense : yet about things sensible , it doth undenyably hold : And also that the Intellect of it self is not free to perceive things sensible otherwise than as they are sensed , or not to perceive them ; but is naturally necessitated to perceive them . So that it is a contradiction for a man to be a man , consisting of a reasonable soul , with sensitive faculties and a body , and yet not to be formed to judge of things sensible as sense perceiveth them . P. Then mad men cease to be men , if they judge otherwise . R. Mad men are your fittest presidents : But , 1. I told you how mans nature is made by God to judge of things : I told you not that this nature may not be vitiated , and hindered from right action . Did I ever say , that the eye may not be blinded , or the understanding distracted ? Blind men and mad men judge not according to the tendency of Nature , and therefore mis-judge . The Connexion of the Intellect to the sense is essential to man as man ; but so is not the soundness or right exercise of his faculties . Reason II. Hence I argue , that sensation and the understandings perception thereby , is the first perception of mans soul , and all that follow are but the rational improvements of it , and therefore ever presuppose it : The natural order of the souls apprehensions is this , beyond all controversie . First Sense perceiveth things sensible , and the Imagination the Images of them . Next the Vnderstanding by a simple perception conceiveth of them as it findeth them in the imagination . Thirdly , then by this Thinking or Knowing , we perceive also our own Act , that we do so Think or Know. And then Fourthly , We compound our conceptions , and form organical notions , and spin out conclusions from what we first perceive . Now if the first perceptions be uncertain or false , it must needs follow , that all those following thoughts , and reasonings which do but improve them , are at least as uncertain and false , if not more . So that there can be no more certainty in any of the Conclusions as such , than there is in the premises and principles . Therefore if mans first and most natural necessary perceptions are false , all the following actions or reasonings of his mind must be no better . All being finally resolved into these perceptions by sense , there is no Truth or Certainty in mans mind at all , if there be none in these . Reason III. Else you would infer , that God is not at all to be Believed , and that there is no such thing as Divine Faith and Religion in Certainty in the world : And so you would bring in , by unavoidable consequence , far worse Impiety , and Irreligiousness than Mahomet or Julian , or any Idolaters that I hear of on the earth . For you directly will overthrow the Divine Veracity , or Truth of Gods Revelations , which is the Formal Object of Faith , without which , it is no Faith. P. A heavy charge , if you can make it good . R. To make it good , do but first observe , 1. That Gods Essential Will or mind is not in it self immediately seen by man ; but known only by some Revelation . 2. That this Revelation is nothing but some SIGNES : For there is nothing in the Universe of Beings , but GOD and CREATURES and the ACTS or Works of Creatures . Now it is not Gods own Essence which is the Revelation in question . Therefore it must be either A Creature ( or work of God ) , or an Act or Work of a Creature . As the voice on Mount Sinai , and that of Christ at his baptism and transfiguration , and the written Tables of Stone , &c. were either the works of God immediately , and so created Signs of his mind ; or else the Acts of Angels , and so Imperate Signs of his mind . Nor it is not the ordinariness or extraordinariness of the way of making these signs , which maketh them currant and true , or credible : For if God can make a Natural false sign , he can make a supernatural false one , for ought any mortal man can prove . Only all the question is , Whether it be indeed a sign of the mind and will of God or not ? Now the works of Nature are Gods Natural Signs , and his Natural objective Light and Law ; as the perception of them is the Subjective or Active Light and Law of Nature : Something of God , these Natural signs do signifie or reveal plainly , and some things darkly : And so it is with supernatural signs ; As the written Tables , the voice of an Angel , the words of an inspired Prophet or Apostle , &c. Now there is no other way for God to speak or reveal falsly , could he do it , but 1. Either to make a false sign , naturally or supernaturally , or 2. To determine mans sense or mind to a false perception . And if God can do this naturally , why not supernaturally ? Nay , à fortiore mark how you teach the Infidel to inferr ? 1. Gods Natural Revelations are Common , and his supernatural rare . 2. Gods Natural Revelations are most certainly his own Acts : But how far a Voice or Book from a Spirit , may be the Act of that Spirit or Angel as a free Agent , and how far that Agent is fallible or defectible , we could not tell , if we had not farther Evidence of Gods owning it . Therefore if you make Gods own ordinary Natural Revelations or significations to be false , how will you be able to disprove the Infidel about the rest ? 3. And then note , that our Case is yet lower and plainer than all this : For if the very Being of the Creatures , which is the Matter of these Signs be uncertain to us , and all our senses and minds deceived about it , then we have no place for enquiry , Whether this Creature be any sign of the mind of God. As if the hearing of all men was deceived , that thought they heard that voice , [ This is my Beloved Son ] or Pauls , that thought he heard Christ speak to him [ Saul , Saul , &c. ] or if their Eyes and Intellects were deceived , that thought they saw Christ and his miracles ; or that think now that they read the Bible , and indeed there be no such thing as a Bible , no such words , &c. then there is no room to enquire what they signifie : For nothing hath no signification . Truth and Goodness are affections or modes of Being : And if we cannot by all our sound senses know the Being of things , we can much less know that they are True or Good. Therefore all knowledge , and all faith , and all Religion is overthrown by your denyal of the truth of our Senses and Intellects perception of things sensible . Reason IV. And by this means you are not capable of being disputed with , nor any Controversie between you and any others in the world , of being decided , while you deny sense . For then you agree not with mankind in any one common principle . And they that agree in nothing , can dispute of nothing . For this is the first principle : Est vel non est is first to be agreed on , before we can dispute any farther of a substance . What will you do to confute an adversary , but drive him to deny a certain principle ? And can you drive him to deny a lower fundamental Principle , than the Being of a substance perceived by sense , yea , by all the sound senses of all men in the world ? Reason V. Yea , it is specially to be noted , that our difference is not only about the species of a sensible substance , but about the very substance it self in genere , Whether all our senses perceive any substance at all , or not . Suppose the question were , Whether it be water or not , which all mens senses see in Rivers ? If a Papist would deny it to be water , doubtless he denyed the agreeing judgement of all mens Intellect by sense . But if he should also say , It is no substance , which we call water or earth , This were to deny the first Principle , and most fundamental perception in nature . Now that this is your case , is undenyable . For , 1. You profess , that Christs Body and Blood are not sensible there ; That it is not the quantity , shape , number , colour , smell , weight , &c. of Christs Body and Blood which we perceive , and that these Accidents are not the Accidents of Christ . 2. And you believe that the Bread and Wine is gone , that is , changed into the body and blood of Christ ; so that no part of their substance , matter or form is left . And you put no third substance under these Accidents in the stead . So that you maintain , that it is the quantity of nothing , the figure of nothing , the colour , the weight , the scituation , the smell , the number , &c. of nothing , which all mens Intellects by sense perceive . So that the Controversie is , Whether it be any substance at all which by those accidents we perceive ? And when we see , handle , taste , smell it , you believe ( or say you believe ) that it is none ; neither Bread or Wine , or any other : Now if by sense we cannot be sure of the very Being of a substance , we can be sure of nothing in the world . Reason VI. Yea , it is to be noted , that though Brutes have no Intellects , yet their Sense and Imagination herein wholly agreeth with the common perception of man : A Dog or a Mouse will eat the bread as common bread , and a Swine will drink the Wine as common Wine : and therefore have the same perception of it as of common bread and wine ; And so their senses must be all deceived as well as mans . And Brutes have as accurate perfect senses as men have , and some much more . And meer natural operations are more certain and constant ( as we see by the worlds experience ) than meer Reason and Argumentation . Birds and Beasts are constant in their perceptions and course of action , being not left to the power of Mutable free-will . Reason VII . You hereby quite overthrow your own foundation , which is fetcht from the Concord of all your party , which you call all the Church : You think that a General Council could not agree to any thing a● an Article of faith if it were not such ; ( when it is bu● the Major Vote that agree ) ; You say that Traditio● is Infallible , because All the Church agreeth in i● ( when it is perhaps but your Sect , which is a Mino● part ) . But do you not overthrow all this , when yo● profess , that All the senses of all the sound men in th● world , and all the simple perceptions of their Intellect● by sense , do agree , that there is substance , yea , d● specie Bread and Wine after the Consecration ? No on● mans perception by sense disagreed in this , from th● institution of the Sacrament to this day , that can be proved , or the least probability of it given . And i● this Concord be no proof , much less is yours : For ▪ 1. The Intellect in Reasoning is more fallible than i● its Immediate perception of things sensed ( or perceived by sense ) . 2. Yours is but the Consent of some men ; but ours is the Consent of all mankind . Yours among your selves hath oft in Councils a Minor part of dissenters , who must be overvoted by the rest : But our Case hath never one dissenting sense or perception . Reason VIII . By this denyal of sense , you overthrow the foundations of Humane Converse : How can men make any sure Contracts , or perform any duty on a sure ground , if the Concordant senses of all the world be false ? Parents cannot be sure which are their own Children ; nor Children which are their own Parents : Husbands cannot certainly know their own Wives from their neighbours . No Subjects can certainly know their own Prince . No man can be sure , whether he buy or sell , receive money or pay it , &c. No man can be sure that there is a Pope , or Priest , or man in the world . Reason IX . You seem to me to Blaspheme God , and to make him the greatest Deceiver of mankind , even in his holy Worship : Whereas God cannot lye ; It is impossible : And the Devil is the Father of lyes : And you make God to tell all the world ( as plainly as if words told them ) even by demonstration to their sight , smell , feeling , taste , that , here is Bread and Wine , when there is none ; yea , that it is at least some substance which they perceive , when it is none at all . Reason X. You thus fain God to be Cruel to Mankind , and that under pretence of Grace ; Even to put such hard Conditions of salvation on man , which seem to us impossible , to any but mad men , or those who by faction have cast their minds into a dream . If these be Gods Conditions , that no man shall be saved , that doth not believe that all his senses , and all the senses of all the world , are deceived when they perceive Bread and Wine , or substance , many may take on them to believe it , but few will believe it , and be saved indeed . Reason XI . Hereby you make the Gospel or New Covenant to be far harder and more rigorous than either the Law of Moses , or the Law of Innocency : For neither of these did damn men for believing the agreeing senses of all mankind : Perfect Obedience , to a perfect nature , was fit to be a delight . The burdensome Ceremonies had no such Impossibilities in them . None of them obliged men to renounce all their senses , and to come to Heaven by so hard a way . Reason XII . You seem to me to Contradict Gods Law and terms of life , and to forge the clean contrary as his : He saith , He that cometh to God must Believe that God is , &c. and He that believeth shall be saved , and he that believeth not shall be damned : But you seem to me to say in plain effect , [ He that Believeth Gods Natural Revelations to all mens senses shall be damned , and that believeth that the said Revelations are false , may be saved , caeteris paribus . ] Reas . XIII . And what a thing by this do you mak● Gods Grace to be ? Whereas true Grace is the Repaire● and perfecter of Nature , you make it to be the destroye● and deceiver of Nature . The use of Grace according to your faith is to cause men to believe that Gods natural Revelations are false , and that all the senses of th● world in this matter are deceived : Whereas a mad ma● can believe this without Grace . Reas . XIV . By this doctrine you abominably corrupt the Church with hypocrisie , while all that will hav● Communion with you , must be forced to profess tha● all mens senses are thus deceived : And can you thin● that really they can all believe it ? or rather you● Church must be mostly made up of gross hypocrites who falsly take on them to believe it when they do not . Reas . XV. And by this means you make the Vnity of the Church to become a meer Impossibility : For you● condition of union is , that men all believe this among other Articles of your faith : And that man hath lost o● vitiated his humanity who can believe and expect , tha● all Christians in the world should ever believe that al● the senses of all the world are thus deceived . You might as well say , The Church shall never have Unity till all Christians do believe that David or Christ was a Worm and no man , a door , a Vine , a thief , a Rock , in proper sense ; or we shall have no unity till we renounce both our humanity and animality and the light and Law of God in Nature . And after this to cry up Vnity , and cry down Schism , what abominable hypocrisie is it ? Reas . XVI . And by this doctrine what bloody inhumanity is become the brand or Character of your Church ? When you decree Concil . Later . sub . Innoc. 3. Can. 3. that all that will not thus renounce their senses , and give the lie to Gods natural revelations , shall be excommunicated and utterly undone in this World , even banished from all that they have , and from the Land of their Nativity ; Yea your Inquisition must torture and burn them , and your Writ de hereticis comburendis must be issued out against them , to fry them to death in flames , if they will not renounce the common senses of mankind . Reas . XVII . And it even amazeth me to think what horrid Tyrants you would thus make all Christian Princes ! When the said Canon determineth that they shall be first Excommunicate and then cast out of their Dominions , which shall be given to others , and their subjects absolved from their allegiance and fidelity , except they will exterminate all these as hereticks from their Dominions , who will not give the lye to all mens senses and to Gods natural Revelations . The plain English is , ☞ He shall not be the Lord of his own Dominions who will have men to be his subjects , or such as will not renounce both their humanity and animality or sense . For to perceive substances in genere & in specie by sense , and to believe or trust the Common senses of all the World about things sensible , as being the surest way that we have of perception , is as necessary to a Man as Ratiocination is . Choose then O ye Princes of the Earth , whether you will be Papists , and whether you will have no men to be your Subjects , even none that believe the senses of themselves and all the world . Reas . XVIII . Thus also your Idolatry exceedeth in absurdity the Idolatry of all the Heathens else in the World : Even Canibals and the most barbarous Nations upon Earth . For if they call men to Worship an Image , the Sun , the Moon , an Ox or an Onion ( of which the Egyptians are accused ) they do but say that some spiritual or celestial numen affixeth his operative presence to this Creature : But they never make men swear that there is no Image , or Sun or Moon or Ox or Onion left , but that the whole substance of it is turned into God , or somewhat else . Your Absurdities tend to make the grossest Idolatry seem comparatively to yours , a very fair and tolerable errour . Reas . XIX . By these means you expose Christianity to the scorn of humane nature , and all the world . You teach Heathens , Mahometans and other Infidels to deride Christ as we do Mahomet ; and to say that a Christian Maketh and Eateth his God , and his faith is a Believing that Gods supernatural Revelations are a lie , and that God is like the Devil the great Deceiver of the world . Wo be to the world because of offences , and wo be to him by whom offence cometh . Reas . XX. Lastly by this means you are the grand pernicious hinderers of the Conversion of the Heathen and Infidel world : For you do as it were proclaim to them ; [ Never turn Christians till you will believe that Gods Natural Revelations are false , and that all mens senses in the world are deceived , in judging that there is Bread , Wine , or sensible substance after the words of Consecration . ] These are the mischievous Consequents of your doctrine . But one benefit I confess doth come by occasion of it ; that it is easier hereby to believe that there are Devils , when we see how they can deceive men : and to believe the evil of sin , when we see how it maketh men mad ; and to believe that there is a Hell , when we see such a Hell already on Earth , as Learned Pompous Clergie men , that have studied to attain this malignant madness to decree to fry men in the flames and damn them to Hell , and give them no peace or quietness in the World , unless they will say , that Gods Natural Revelations are false , and that all mens senses are herein deceived , by God as the great deceiver of the World. CHAP. II. The Papists Answers to all this confuted . P. IT is easie to make any cause seem odious , till the accusations are answered , which I shall confidently do in the present case . I. All this is but argument from sense : And sense must vail to faith : Gods word must be believed before our senses . R. It is easie to cheat fools and children into a dream , with a sound of empty words : To talk of senses vailing to faith and such like Canting , and insignificant words , may serve turn with that sort of men . But sober men will tell you that sense is in exercise in order of Nature at least before Reason or faith , and that we are Men and Animals before we are Christians : And that the truth and certainty of faith , presupposeth the Truth and Certainty of sense . Tell me else , if sense be false , how you know that there is a Man , or Pope , or Priest in the World ? that there is a Book or Voice , or any being ? And what possibility then have you of Believing ? P. Gods Revelation is surer than our senses ? R. This is the old song over and over . Revelation without sense ( to you and ordinary Christians at least ) is a contradiction . How know you that God hath any revelations ? If by preachers words , How know you that there is a preacher , or a word but by sense ? If by books , How know you that there is a book , but by sense ? P. II. We may trust sense in all other things , where God doth not contradict it : But not in this One Case , because God forbiddeth us . R. Say so of your Church too , your Pope , Council or Traditions ; that we may trust them in all cases save one or two , in which it is certain that they do lye ! And will not any man conclude , that he that can lye in one case , can lye in more ? If one Text of Gods word were false , and you would say , You may believe all the rest save that , how will you ever prove it ? For the formal object of faith is gone , which is the Divine Veracity ; He that can lye once , can lye twice . So if all our senses be false in this instance , how shall we know that they are ever true ? P. You may know it because God saith it . R. 1. Where doth God say it ? 2. How shall I be sure that he saith it ? If you say , that it is written in Scripture ; besides that there is no such word ; How shall I know that all mens senses are not deceived in thinking that there is a Scripture , or such a word in it ? If you say that the Council saith it , How shall I know that there is a man or ever was a Council , or a Book in the world ? The certainty of Conclusions presupposeth the certainty of premises and principles : And the certainty of faith and Reasoning , presupposeth the certainty of sense : And if you deny this , you deny all , and in vain plead for the rest . P. I must believe my senses , where I have no reason to disbelieve them . But when God contradicteth them , I have reason to disbelieve them . R. 1. You vainly suppose without proof that God contradicteth them . So you may say , I may or must believe the Scripture or an Apostle , Prophet or Miracle , except God contradict them . But if God contradict them , he contradicteth his own word or revelation : For we have no other from him , but by man : And if he contradict himself , or his own word , how can I believe him , or know which of his words it is that 's true , when one is false ? so here : His Natural Revelation is his first , nearest , and most satisfactory revelation : And if that be said to be false by his supernatural revelation , which shall I believe , and why ? P. III. You cannot deny but God can deceive our senses . And therefore if he can , will you conclude against all faith if once he do it ? R. 1. This is not once ; but as oft as God is worshiped in your Mass and our Sacrament . 2. God can deceive us without a Lie , but not by a Lie. Christ deceived the two Disciples , Luke 24. by carrying it as if he would have gone further ; but not by saying that he would go further . God can do that from which he knoweth that man will take occasion of deceit . God can blind a mans eyes , or destroy or corrupt his other senses ; he can present an object defectively , with unmeet mediums , distance , site , &c. In this case he doth not give us a FALSE SIGN ; nor doth he by the Nature of the Revelation oblige any man to believe it : Yea Nature saith , that a man is not to Judge by a vitiated sense , or an unmeet medium , or a too distant object , or where the due qualification of the sense or object are wanting : Nature there tells us that we are there to suppose or suspect that we are uncapable of certainty : But Nature obligeth us to believe sound senses about duly qualified objects ; and to take sense for sound when all the senses of all the men in the world agree ; and the object to be a duly qualified object of sense , when all mens senses in the world so perceive it . For we have no way but by sense to know what is an object of sense . 3. The question is not what God can do by his power , if he will ; but what God will do , and can will to do , in consistency with his perfection , and just and merciful Government of the World. And God in making us men whose Intellects are naturally to perceive things sensible by the means of the perception of sense , doth naturally oblige man and necessitate him also , to trust his senses in such perception . And in Nature man hath no surer way of apprehension : Therefore if you could prove that sense is ordinarily fallible , and Gods revelations to it false , yet man were not only allowed but necessitated to use and trust it , as having no better surer way of apprehension : As among many knaves or lyars , I must most trust the honestest and most trusty , when I have no better to trust . If I am not sure that it is a Sun or Light that I see , yet I am sure that I must take my perception of it as a Sun or Light as it is ; For God hath given me no better . If I am not sure that my sight , feeling , taste , &c. are infallible ; yet I am sure that I am made of God to use them ; and that I have no better senses , nor a better way to be certain of their proper objects : so that I must take and trust them as they are , or cease to be a man. P. IV. Christs Body and Blood are not sensible objects ; and therefore sense is no proper judge whether they be present . R. This is one of your gross kind of cheats , to change the question . We are not yet come to the question , Whether Christs Body and blood be here ? And I grant you that sense is no judge of that , any more than whether an Angel be here . But the question is now only , Whether Bread or Wine or sensible substance be here ? And of this we have no natural way but by sense to judge . P. V. If God should say to you [ Your senses are in this deceived ; Here is no bread or wine or sensible substance ] Would you not believe him ? R. 1. Again I tell you , it is a supposition not to be put : As if you should say , [ If God should say , that part of the Gospel or word of God is false , would you not believe him ? ] 2. If I know that God telleth me that some disease or false medium , &c. deceive me or another in particular , I will believe him : But here it is supposed , 1. That I have assurance that it is God that tells me so ; 2. And that I have no assurance that common sense saith the contrary . But if the sense of all the world about a well scituate object of sense agree , I will not take that to be Gods word which contradicteth it , till I have some evidence which is better and stronger than the agreeing senses of all the world to prove it to be so . And what evidence must that be ? I assure you somewhat greater than the authority of a beastly ignorant murdering Pope , and his factious Council . P. VI. Cartesius giveth you an instance of deception of sight : We think a square Tower of a Steeple to b● round till we come neer it : And the water seemeth to us to move when it is the boat . R. Cartesius and you do seem to be Confederate , to put out the eye of nature , and tempt the world to Infidelity , if not to Atheism . 1. Nature tells us that a distan● Steeple or other object , is not perfectly discernible and therefore Nature forbiddeth us to judge till w● come neerer . We speak only of objects duly scituate an● qualified . 2. The failing of the sight there is but Negative : It discerneth not the corners : but here yo● feign it to be positive . 3. As the errour is corrigibl● by nearer approach , so also by the use of other sense● ▪ If a man feel the Tower that is square , he will infallibly perceive it . But if you could prove that this squar● Tower is no Tower , no Stone , no Substance at all , thoug● all the world should judge otherwise that see it at th● meetest distance , and feel it with their hands , then you did something to the purpose . So as to the moving water or banks , 1. Motion is not so evident as substance . 2. Though one sense , through the weakness of the brain be insufficient , the Intellect by the same sense about other objects , and by other senses can infallibly discern what that one perceiveth not . 3. And if one mans eyes deceive him who is in the boat , ten thousand mens eyes that stand on the firm land , perceive the truth : But in our case it is all the senses of all the world , in all ages , about the neerest object , that agree . P. VII . Substance is not the proper object of sense , but only Accidents : We see , feel , taste , smell the accidents , but not the substances . R. 1. If you can name some notional speculator or Word-maker that hath said so , you think you have authority to renounce humanity by it . Call it proper or not-proper , substance is the certain object of sense as cloathed with its accidents . Quantity and the res quanta are not two things , but one : And he that feeleth or seeth quantity , feeleth or seeth the rem quantam . He that seeth or feeleth shape or figure , seeth or feeleth the thing figured . He that smelleth odor , smel●eth rem odoratam ; He that seeth Colour , seeth the rem coloratam . When to feel the superficies , you feel ●he substance . 2. By this we see how by words you will unman mankind . Have you any way of perception of corporal substances but by sense ? Do you know that there is any Earth or Water , or any corporal substance in the world , or not ? If you do , tell us how you know it but by the ●erception of sense presenting it to the Intellect ? You know that you must thus know it , or not at all . 3. And thus still you would bring men with Scepticism to Infidelity . You would teach men , that they that saw Christ were not sure that they saw him or any substance at all , but only the accidents , called Quantity , Shape , Colour , &c. They that saw Apostles , Miracles , Bibles , Councils , were not sure that they saw any more than accidents , &c. P. VIII . They that saw Angels appearing to them like men , or the Holy Ghost descending on Christ in the shape of a Dove , thought they saw Men and a Dove : So Moses Rod did seem a Serpent . But their senses did deceive them . R. Their senses were not at all deceived : And if by rash judging they would go beyond sense , and wilfully deceive themselves , it was their fault . Their sense saw the shape or likeness of a man and dove . The text saith , not that the Holy Ghost was a dove , but that it descended in the likeness of a Dove : and their senses perceived no more . And this was true . A man consisteth of a soul and a body of flesh and blood : Did sense perceive any of this in the Angels ? either , soul , flesh or blood ? or any such thing in the appearance of a dove ? If I see your picture or statue , is my sense deceived if I take it not for a living man ? It I see it moved , is my sense deceived if I take it not for any other than a moving Image ? Nature doth not bind me to take every simile to be idem ; a corps for a man ; an Image for the person . It will be foolishness so to take it . But if this Angel , or Dove , had come near to the senses , all the senses , of all sorts of men , and they had seen , and felt , and tasted , and smelt , all that are the objects of these senses , and yet there had been indeed no visible , tactible , sensible substance at all , this had been a deception of the senses remediless . Christ I am sure appealed to sense , to prove that he had flesh and blood and was not a meer spirit . The same I say of Moses Rod : either it was really a Serpent or not ; If it was , then it was no deception to judge it such : If not , sense was not at all deceived : For it perceived nothing but the similitude and motion , and those ( with the substance ) were certainly there . But if all mens senses , seeing , feeling , tasting , &c. had been deceived , and there had been indeed no shape of a Serpent , nor any sensible substance at all but Accidents real without any substance , this had been indeed a deception of the senses . And if God so subvert mans nature , he will not bind him to do the things which belong to the nature of man to do . But by all this we may perceive , that there is no end of Controversies with you to be hoped for : For how is it possible to bring any thing to a more satisfying issue , than when the senses of all the world do as clearly perceive it , as any sensible thing can be perceived ? If our difference were whether this be Paper , and these be Letters ; or whether this be a Pen , a Table , yea or a substance , and I should appeal to the sense of all the World , and yet this will not serve to decide the Controversie ; what end , or hope of ending can there be : I will sooner look for concord with a mad man , than with men that deny the senses of all the World. CHAP. III. The second Argument against Transubstantiation : The Contradictions of it . R. Arg. 2. GOd owneth not Contradictions ( nor can do ) . The Papists doctrine of Transubstantiation , or nullification of the whole substance of Bread and Wine , is contradictious : Therefore it is not owned by God. The Major I know no man that denyeth . The Contradictions are these . I. You feign many Accidents of no substance ; which is a gross contradiction . For to be an Accident is essentially Relative to a subject or substance : And ejus esse est inesse . To be a Father without a Son , or a Son without a Father , a Husband without a Wife , or a Wife without a Husband , &c. are contradictions : And so it is to be an Accident of nothing , or without a subject . Particularly , 1. The quantity of nothing is a contradiction : We can measure the Bread , and Wine : To be an inch in longitude , latitude or profundity , and yet to be no substance is a contradiction . To be ( as the Wine is ) a quart , a gallon of Nothing is a contradiction . 2. So for number ; we can number the wafers or pieces of Bread , and the Cups of Wine : And to be twenty , forty , an hundred nothings , is a contradiction . 3. So for the Weight , To be an ounce , a pound , or ten pound , of nothing , is a contradiction . 4. So for the figure or shape : It is a contradiction to be a round nothing , a square nothing , &c. 5. So is it to be a sweet nothing , a sharp nothing , an austere nothing , &c. as the Wine is fancied by you . 6. Or to be an odoriferous nothing : A rough or a smooth nothing , &c. 7. Or to be a white nothing , or a red nothing , or any coloured nothing . The same I may say of site , and of a multitude of Relations , &c. II. It is a contradiction , for Nothing to have all those Real notable effects , which it is certain that the consecrated Bread and Wine have . As , 1. That when a man or a beast , is really nourished by the Bread and Wine , and flesh and blood , and spirits are made of it , ( as they may live by it many months , ) that these should be the effects of nothing , or made out of no substance by way of Nutrition , without a proper Creation . 2. When the Consecrated Bread and Wine do partly turn to Excrements , Vrine , Dung and Spittle , that all the Excrements are nothings or made of nothing without a new Creation , is a contradiction . 3. When the Wine shall ( as it may do ) make a man or a swine drunk , that he is made drunk by nothing or no substance , when as that drunkenness is essentially the operation of the spirits of the Wine upon the spirits of him that drinks it , this also is a contradiction . And God maketh not contradictions true . P. It is the plea of an Infidel to say that God cannot do this or that . Will you limit the power of the Almighty ? Will you say that God cannot make Quantity , quality , site , &c. without substance , because we cannot ? It is blasphemy to say God cannot . R. God can do All things that are works of Power : God can do nothing which is a work of Impotency , defectiveness , naughtiness , or folly , or which are contradictions in themselves . And when we say God cannot , we do but say either that God is Perfect and Almighty , or that the thing is Nothing , but a false name , and not capable of being any ones work . God cannot lye , because he is perfect and Almighty , and not because he wanteth power . God cannot make you to be a man and no man , a substance and no substance , in the same sence , at the same time : because it is a contradiction . But if this Argument did not hold , and it were no contradiction , for God to overturn his setled course of Nature , I shall shew you next that we have other reasons enough to judge that he doth it not . If he Can make darkness to give Light , and a clod to be to the World instead of the Sun , without changing it , or a stone to understand and speak without changing it , yet that God doth none of this , both reason and experience prove . CHAP. IV. The Third Argument against Transubstantiation : from the certain falshood of their assertion of multitudes of Miracles in it . R. THat doctrine which asserteth a multitude of false or feigned Miracles is false and not of God : But such is the doctrine of Transubstantiation — Ergo — I will 1. Shew you what Miracles it asserteth ; and 2. Prove that they are feigned or false . I. It is a Miracle for Bread and Wine to be turned into no Bread and Wine , yea , into nothing ; and this by the speaking of four words . II. It is a Miracle ( or Contradiction ) for the Bread and Wine to be turned into Christs Body and Blood , and yet neither the matter nor form of it to become any of the matter of Christs body and blood . III. It is a Miracle , ( or a contradiction rather as aforesaid ) for the Accidents to be the Accidents of Nothing , or no substance ; to be the quantity of Nothing , the shape , the number of nothing , the colour , savour , smell of nothing , and so of all the rest . IV. It is a Miracle to have all the sound senses of all sorts of men in the world so deceived herein , as to perceive bread , wine and substance , if there be none . V. It is a Miracle to have the senses of Mice and Rats , and Dogs and other Brutes also deceived when they eat and drink it . VI. It is a Miracle ( or contradiction ) to have nothing without a Creation , to become excrements : or else those excrements to be nothing also : And the Accidents of all those excrements to be the Accidents of Nothing . VII . It is a Miracle to be nourished by Nothing : ( For you say , that it is not Christs body and blood that nourisheth the flesh . ) To have flesh and blood made of nothing , is a creation . VIII . It is a Miracle to be drunk with nothing , when the Wine is annihilated or gone , and seemeth to be it that causeth the effect : Yea , for Beast or man to be so drunk . IX . It is a Miracle ( or contradiction ) for Christ to eat his own body ( as the Papists hold he did ) ; and yet it was his Whole Body which did eat his body , and yet he had but one body . X. It was a Miracle ( or contradiction ) for Christs entire body to be nourished by that eaten body , and that the eaten body turned into the substance of his eating body : And yet all was but one . XI . It was a Miracle that Christs Eaten body being not dead but living with a humane soul , should be broken and eaten by him and his disciples , and yet feel no pain by it . XII . It was a Miracle that his whole body was on the Cross ; and yet part of it in the disciples bellies at that time ; or at least before that eaten by them . XIII . It was a Miracle ( or contradiction ) that Christs eaten body now nourisheth not the flesh of any man ; and yet did nourish the flesh of the disciples before his death . Or if it did not nourish them , it was a Miracle that what they eat and drank then did not nourish them , ( or Christ what he eat and drank ) . XIV . It was a Miracle that the whole body of Christ should arise and live , and ascend to Heaven , when the disciples had eaten it . XV. It is a Miracle that every Receiver eateth the whole body of Christ , and not a part , and yet that he hath but one body ; or that they eat each a part without dividing him . XVI . It is a Miracle that as soon as the species of Bread and Wine perish or cease in the Eater , Christs body and blood ceaseth to be in him , and this without his detriment . XVII . It is a Miracle that there is such a local distance between the consecrated bread and wine all over the world ; and yet no such distance between the parts of Christs body , and yet that bread to be his body . XVIII . It is a Miracle that bread and wine is Annihilated or cease every Mass , and yet that the quantity of corporeal matter in the whole world is no whit diminished : or else that those four words can so annihilate and diminish the matter of the world . XIX . It is a Miracle that Christs body and blood increase not , when so many millions of parcells of bread and wine are turned into it . XX. It is a Miracle that Christs body and blood is not diminished , when by the Corruption of the species of bread and wine , it vanisheth away . XXI . It is a Miracle that Christs body and blood should be so received into the bowels of a wicked man , and yet not be any way defiled by his sin , nor by his bodily uncleanness . XXII . It is a Miracle that a Baker dispositively , and a Priest effectually can make his own God , and eat him when they have done . XXIII . It is a Miracle that when Worms are bred of that which was bread and wine , these worms are really generated of nothing , or created ; ( or if as some say , the bread and wine do substantially return again , and breed them , that is another , a double miracle . ) XXIV . And it is a Miracle that the Corporeal matter of the world should by these Worms be daily increased , out of nothing , or out of meer accidents that have no substance . XXV . It is a Miracle that men may be poysoned by the Sacramental Elements as ingredients in the mixture , and yet that they are no substance . XXVI . It is a Miracle or Contradiction , that when flesh and blood ( formally such ) enter not into the Kingdom of God , but Glorified bodies are all spiritual bodies ( though not Spirits ) , and therefore not flesh and blood : Yet Christs body in the Sacrament should be truly and properly flesh and blood , and yet the same with his glorified body ( which is not flesh and blood : ) which is the Papists doctrine ; and the bread turned into such flesh . XXVII . It is a Miracle that the same Body which in Heaven is brighter in Glory than the Sun , and exalted above Angels , should yet shew no signs of Glory on the Altar , in the Cup , in the hand , mouth or belly of him that taketh it ; but all its Glory be so hid . XXVIII . It is a Miracle ( or Contradiction ) that Christs Humiliation should be past , and his whole Body Glorified , and yet that to be torn with the teeth of a wicked man , to be eaten by Mice , Rats or Dogs , to go into the filthy guts , to be trodden in the dirt , should be neither painful , nor any diminution of the Glory of that same body . Indeed his body on the Cross might be broken , and his blood spilt and trodden on , because he was a sacrifice for sin ; and it was the time of his Voluntary Humiliation : But now for the suffering of death he is crowned with Glory and Honour , Heb. 2.9 , 7. XXIX . It is a Miracle that the Living Body of our Glorified Redeemer should give no evidence or sign of life ; neither stir , nor speak , nor have breath , pulse , warmth , or other property of life appearing . XXX . It is a Miracle , at least , that flesh should have none of the common notes or properties of flesh , not to be made of food , of blood and chyme , not to consist of the fibrae which flesh consisteth of ; not to have the colour , taste , odour or other such accidents of flesh : And that Blood should have none of these notifying accidents of blood . XXXI . It is a Miracle or Contradiction , that Christs Flesh was Broken before it was broken , sacrificed before it was sacrificed , I mean really broken and sacrificed at his Supper , when yet he was whole and not really sacrificed till he was nailed to the Cross . And so that his blood was really and properly shed in his Supper , and yet no skin broken , nor his blood really shed till his side was pierced on the Cross . And that he that was but once offered and sacrificed , should yet be offered and sacrificed once on one day , and another time on another day . Here are one and thirty Miracles or Contradictions : Let us hear some of the Aggravations of them , as worthy to be considered . I. It is a Miracle of these Miracles , that there should be as many Miracle workers as Priests in the world : How many thousand are they in France alone ? And so in many other Countreys . Whereas in Christs own time , they were comparatively but few . II. That the Pope or any Prelate can make a Miracle worker when he please , yea , a thousand ; as if the Holy Ghost were at his will. III. It is a Miracle of these Miracles that a Simonist who buyeth the Priesthood with money , doth buy the Holy Ghost to work Miracles for that money , which Simon Magus was condemned for thinking possible . For the Papists hold , that the Consecration of a Simoniacal Priest transubstantiateth . IV. It is a Miracle that all this power of Miracles should be given to flagitious wicked men ; Adulterers , Murderers , Drunkards , &c. V. It is a Miracle that all these men can work Miracles at their own will and pleasure , at any hour : whereas the Apostles had not the Spirit at command , and could not do it when they would . VI. It is a Miracle that Miracles should be as common as Masses , or the Eucharistical worshipping of God ; not only on every Lords Day in all Church-assemblies , but any day or hour else in the Week . And so Miracles be as ordinary almost as to eat and drink . VII . It is a Miracle that every wicked Priest should do so many Miracles in one , and so many more in number than Christ himself did , in the same proportion of time , as far as the History of the Gospel telleth us : Christ is quite exceeded by them all . VIII . It is a Miracle that every wicked Priest can work all these Miracles so easily , as with the careless saying over four words : When the Apostles could not cast out some Devils , or work some Miracles , and some could not be done but by fasting and prayer . IX . It is a Miracle that every Priest can work all these Miracles upon an unbeliever or a wicked man : For to such they say , it is the real flesh and blood of Christ , and no bread or wine ; And the senses of all these wicked men are deceived . Whereas Christ himself could not do any great miraculous work among some where he came , because of their unbelief . X. It is a Miracle that God and the Priest should do these foresaid Miracles on Mice and Rats and other Beasts , by deceiving their senses , which we find not that Christ ever did : or that God should feed them with the miraculous accidents aforesaid . XI . It is a Miracle of these Miracles that the Priest can thus easily work Miracles not only on other creatures , but on the glorified body of Christ himself , ( by the foresaid changes , &c. ) XII . It is a Miracle , that when Christ wrought his Miracles usually before a far smaller number , these Priests work Miracles thus before or on the senses of all the men in the world that will be present at the Mass ; for all their senses are deceived . XIII . It is a Miracle that the Abassines , Armenians , Greeks , Protestants , yea , any that they call Schismaticks , and Hereticks , who do not intend to work any Miracle , nor believe Transubstantiation , do yet work Miracles in each Sacramental administration of the Eucharist , not only without their knowledge , but contrary to their belief , and against their wills : For they say , that even such mens consecration is effectual . XIV . Either their Priests consecration worketh all these Miracles , when they intend it not , ( as if they speak the words in jeast or scorn , or in Infidelity , ) or only when they intend it . If the first be said , it is a Miracle of Miracles , that any Priest can work so many and great Miracles by a jeast or scorn — If not , then all the business is come to nothing , and no one but the Priest knoweth whether there be any such Miracle at all , and whether ever he eat the flesh of Christ : And so it will be in the power of the Priest to deceive and damn all the people , according to the Papists exposition of Christs words , Joh. 6. Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood , you have no life in you . XV. Either a malicious intention to a wrong end will be effectual in Consecration , or not . If not , none but the Priest knoweth that there is any body and blood of Christ , or that ever he received any : Because none knoweth though the Priest intend Consecration , whether he intend it to a right end . But if a wicked end will serve ( as I think most of them hold ) the Miracle may be great and sad . For any Roguish drunken malicious Priest may undo a Baker or Vintner at his pleasure , and by four words deprive him of all his Bread and Wine : Yea , he might nullifie all the Bread and Wine in the City , and so either make a famine at his pleasure , or else make whole Families and Cities live still and be nourished without any substance by bare Accidents , which would be a Miracle indeed . If the Priest can by consecration change only a convenient quantity of bread and wine , then all that is overmuch is bread and wine after consecration . If otherwise , why may he not change all the bread and wine in the Shop or Cellar where he cometh , intending consecration to an ill end ? If he can do it only on the Altar , then want of an Altar would frustrate the effect ( which they hold not ) . But if he can do it without an Altar he may do it in the Shop and Cellar . If he can do it only on the bread and wine present , how near must it be ? Then the words will work at so many yards distance , and not at so many . Or if he cannot do it out of sight , a blind Priest cannot do it . But if he can do it on that which is absent , we may fear lest in an anger he may take away all the bread and wine in the Land ; at least in a frolick to try his power . XVI . And it is some aggravaion of these manifold Miracles that a Degraded Priest can do them : Because they follow the indelible Character : And so he that hath once made a Miracle-worker , cannot take away his power again , nor his sin lose his power . Is not this a marvellous power of Miracles , which becometh like a nature to them , as the power of speaking is ? XVII . Yet is this Miracle-working-power more miraculous , in that a mans own unwillingness , or Repentance of his Calling cannot hinder the Miracle if he do but speak four words . Consent it self is not necessary to it : Let a man Repent that ever he was a Priest , and profess that he continueth in that Calling against his will , yea , let him write as I now do against Transubstantiation , yet all this will not hinder his next Consecration from working all the foresaid Miracles . XVIII . It is miraculous that if you keep a consecrated Wafer never so long , if you use it never so coursly , if you ( as he did who occasioned the conversion of Mr. Anthony Egan a late Irish Priest ) pawn it at an Ale-house for thirty shillings ; if you lay it down for a stake at Cards or Dice , &c. it will not cease to be Christs flesh ( and so by his blood , ) nor ever becomes bread , or any other substance till it corrupt : And yet in a mans stomach it ceaseth to be Christs body , as natural heat corrupteth it by concoction : And yet it is not Christs flesh that is concocted . XIX . It is a Miracle of this Miracle which Aquinas and others assert , that the Bread and Wine are not Annihilated , but wholly turned into Christs body and blood ; and yet , as Vasquez saith , It is not that the matter of bread begins to be under the form of Christs body ( as Durandus held . ) Saith Veron Reg. fid . cap. 5. This Transubstantiation is neither a change nor a production of any thing ; but it is a Relation of order between the substance that doth desist to be , and that into which it doth desist . And yet saith the Concil . Trident. There is a change made of the whole substance into , &c. XX. Lastly , It is a Miracle that all these Miracles should be done so as not to appear to the senses of any man living , either to Convert Unbelievers or Confirm the faithful : So that millions of these Miracles are seen and not seen ; the Priest , and Action , and Accidents are seen , but no Miracle seen by any . So that Aquinas concludeth 3. q. 76. a. 7 , [ Though Christ be existent in this Sacrament per modum substantiae , yet neither bodily eyes , nor our Intellects can see him , but by faith : no nor the Intellect of an Angel can see him secundum sua naturalia ; nor do Devils see him but by faith ; nor the blessed , but in the Divine Essence . ] All these make these Miracles far more miraculous than the raising of Lazarus from the dead . WHether all these are Miracles , or most or many of them Contradictions , and therefore Impossibilities , I make no great matter of at this time . I think it utterly needless to add any more to what is said in answer to such sayings as Aquinas's ( 3. q. 75. & 76. ) and other Schoolmen , that [ The senses are not deceived , because there are the Accidents , and the Intellect is by faith preserved from deception : that the remaining accidents are in quantitate dimensiva quasi in subjecto : that these Accidents can change an extrinsick body , can be corrupted , can generate Worms , can nourish , can be broken , &c. ] For all this at least confesseth , that its all done by Miracle : ( Though I will say , 1. That they could scarce have chosen a more unhappy pro-subject of Accidents than Quantity , nor have given more unhappy reasons for it than Aquinas doth q. 77. a. 2. c. 1. Because the sense perceiveth that it is Aliquid quantum , that is coloured . 2. Because Quantity is the first disposition of matter , &c. For this includeth matter : and Aliquid quantum is a word that giveth away his Cause : And no Accident is more the same with its subject than Quantity , or moles extensiva . 2. And he will be long before he will make or prove mans nature to be such , as that his Intellect can judge of substances by Believing , as incomplex objects , before it have perceived them by sense and imagination . When we see , taste , smell , feel , hear them , the Intellect will suddenly and necessarily have some species or perception of the Thing , before it come Logically to dispute from extrinsick media of Testimony , What this thing is in a second notion . And our question is , Whether the Intellect in this first Perception be deceived , or not ? If you discharge the Intellect from perceiving substances presently , before it know them by second notions or Argument , you will make man quite another thing , than every hour and action tells us he is : But what will not a man say , when he sets himself only to study what to say for the making good of his undertaken Cause ? But my next work is to prove the Falshood of these pretended Miracles . CHAP. V. The Minor proved , viz. That these Miracles are false . THat these are all but feigned Miracles , I thus prove . I. Because the holy Scriptures do plainly deny such an ordinariness or commonness of the gift of Miracles . 1 Cor. 12.8 , 9 , 10 , 11. [ To one is given by the spirit the word of Wisdom , to another the word of Knowledge by the same spirit , to another faith by the same spirit , to another the gifts of healing by the same spirit , to another the working of miracles , &c. But all these worketh that one and the self same spirit ; dividing to every man severally as he will. 28 , 29. And God hath set some in the Church , first Apostles , secondarily Prophets , thirdly Teachers , after that miracles , then gifts of healing , helps , Governments , diversities of tongues : Are all Apostles ? are all Prophets ? are all Teachers ? are all workers of Miracles . ] Here it is most expresly told us , that working Miracles is a peculiar gift of some , and even in those times not common to all that were Priests . But the Papists make it common to every Priest , though a common Adulterer , Drunkard , Murderer or Heretick ; no one Priest in the world is without it . II. Though some few that were workers of iniquity might have some such gifts , Matth. 7. Yet that was so rare , that Nature it self taught men to judge Miracles to be signs of divine approbation : so that Nicodemus thence argueth , Joh. 3.2 . No man could do these Miracles that thou dost except God be with him . And the man Joh. 9.31 . God heareth not sinners , but if any man be a Worshipper of God and doth his will , him he heareth . And the people , vers . 16. How can a man that is a sinner do such Miracles ? And it was Christs own proof that he was of God , and his Gospel true ; and therefore to Blaspheam his Miracles , by ascribing them to the Devil , was the unpardonable Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost : And to deny Miracles to be a sign of Gods attestation is to subvert all Christianity . Act. 2.22 . Jesus of Nazareth a man approved of God among you by miracles , wonders and signs which God did by him in the midst of you — Joh. 5.36 . The same works that I do bear witness of me that the Father hath sent me . Joh. 10.25 , 37 , 38. The works that I do in my Fathers name , they bear witness of me — If I do not the works of my Father , believe me not : But if I do , though ye believe not me , believe the works , that ye may know and believe that the Father is in me , and I in him . Joh. 14.11 . Believe me for the very works sake . Joh. 15.24 . If I had not done among them the works that no other man did , they had not had sin . This also was Pauls proof of his Apostleship , yea and of the truth of all the Apostles doctrine : Heb. 2.3 , 4. God also bearing them witness both with signs and wonders , and divers Miracles , and gifts of the Holy Ghost , according to his own Will. Therefore that Doctrine is unlike to be true , which tells us that every wicked Priest in the world , though a Simonist , or an enemy of Christ and Godliness , and drown'd in all Vice , is such a constant miracle-worker : When God hateth all the workers of iniquity , Psal . 5.5 . III. But though this Reason be but probable , this following is demonstrative to a believer . That doctrine which maketh every Ignorant wicked or Heretical Priest in the world , far to excell the Prophets , Apostles , and Christ himself , in the Greatness , Number and facility of Miracles , is false : But such is this doctrine of Transubstantiation — I know that Christ telleth his Apostles [ Greater works than these shall ye do . ] But 1. There are Greater works ( such as the converting of greater numbers in the world ) which are not Greater Miracles : 2. And what was promised ●o the Apostles , as to Miracles , was not promised to every Priest in the world . I appeal to the Consciences of sober Christians , whether it sound not as an arrogant if not blaspheamous speech , to say that Christ and his Apostles did fewer and smaller miracles ( proportionable to their time ) than every Priest . And as to the Minor , it is soon proved in its parts . 1. As to the Greatness of the Miracles ; those of Christ were exceeding Great : especially his Raising Lazarus , and his own Resurrection , his turning water into Wine , and his feeding thousands with a little food — But he that will examine Transubstantiation as afore-described , shall find it to have more that is contrary to nature , than all these , by far . The substance of the dead body of Christ or Lazarus did not vanish , but remained to be the organized Recipient matter of the re-entring soul . There were no Accidents without substances , or other such things as are mentioned before . The multiplying of food , could at the most be but a new Creation ; But it was real food , and none of the contradictions or absurdities before recited . The turning of Water into Wine was likest this in the Papists opinion ; but indeed little like it . For the matter of the water there remained , with the form of Wine , and so became the Matter of Wine , and did not vanish : And here was real Wine , and real substance , and not Accidents without substances , deceiving all the senses or Intellectual perceptions . The same may be said of the miracles of the Apostles , compared with Transubstantiation . 2. And as to the Number , though Christs and his Apostles Miracles were very many , yet there is no Scripture-evidence that they were for number comparable ( for so much time ) to every Priests . Christs miracles are set down in the sacred history in such order , and the Evangelists so much agree in reciting the same miracles , that ( though St. John say ) the world could not contain the Books that should be written — yet we find no probability that they were neer so common as Masses are : when in several places where Christ came , they that looked after Miracles and Signs were denyed them , and had none , but were put off to the sign of the Prophet Jonah , &c. Yea Herod and Pilate were in this denyed their desired satisfaction ; and they that call to him for a miracle on the Cross . And so of the Apostles . But every Priest doth his miracles as oft as there is a Mass , though every day . 3. And as to the Facility I said before , that [ in his own Country , among his own kindred , he could do no mighty work save that he layed his hands on a few sick folk and healed them , and he marvelled at their unbelief ] Mark 6.4 , 5 , 6. And he some time groaned in spirit , and wept , ( as for Lazarus ) . And the Disciples could not cast out a Devil , Mar. 9.18 , 28. Luk. 9.40 . It was not to be done but by fasting and prayer . It s like Paul would have cured Trophimus if he could , when he left him sick . And as holy men spake , not when , nor as they pleased , but when and as they were inspired by the Holy Ghost : so did they work miracles , not arbitrarily , but at such times and in such manner as the spirit moved them . But any the most wicked Priest can do it at his pleasure , any hour of the day : and that but by reciting Hoc est corpus meum . Many other disparities appear in what is said before . IV. The End of the Gift of Miracles confuteth the feigned Miracles of Transubstantiation . The End of Christs gift was to prove him to be of God ( as is aforeshewed ) and to prove his Apostles to be of God , and to confirm the Gospel which they Preached , Mar. 16.17 , 18 , 19 , 20. Heb. 2.4 . As the gift of Tongues so other wonders , were to convince unbelievers , 1 Cor. 14. Act. 2. & 4.30 . & 5.12 . & 7.36 . & 8.13 . & 14.3 . 2 Cor. 12.12 . But the miracles of Transubstantiation are known to no unbeliever ; nor to any one in the world by any sense ; and have no such End , but a contrary effect . The Apostles who were to convert the world , and next Christ , to do the greatest good , were therefore to do the greatest miracles : And it was their argument for Christ , Joh. 7.31 . When Christ cometh will he do more miracles than these which this man hath done ? Yet now every ignorant Priest pretendeth to far more , who doth but tempt Infidels to deride Christianity by the pretence ; as we do Mahometanism , for Mahomets sport pretended with the Moon , and other such delirations . V. God is not to be said to work Miracles and cross the established course of nature without proof . But these pretended Miracles have no proof — No man living perceiveth them by sense . And that God telleth us of no such things by supernatural Revelation , shall be further shewed anon : In the mean time , it may satisfie us , that they bring us no proof , but their own affirmation , which they require us to believe . VI. The Matter of these pretended Miracles is expresly contradicted by the Word of God , as shall be proved in the next Chapter . VII . Ad hominem ; Do not the Papists forget themselves here , and contradict their other suppositions ? 1. They make Miracles to be one evidence of sanctity , and therefore Canonize men , when they think that they have proof that they wrought Miracles : And yet maintain that a Whoremonger , Drunkard or Heretick may do many more . 2. They make Miracles a proof that they are the true Church , and say that among us there are no Miracles ; and yet they confess that every Priest , among us and all others , whom they account Schismaticks and Hereticks , do more Miracles than Christ did ; if they consecrate frequently . 3. They burn men to ashes for working miracles , even for making God ; if so be , they do it not in the Roman fashion . 4. They confess that the other Sacraments are not thus made up of Miracles ; no not Baptism , which is our Christening , and washeth us from our sins : And yet this Sacrament alone , must by a multitude of Miracles differ from the rest . 4. Whether the Doctrine of their St. Thomas and his followers and others , that the formal words of this Sacrament have a created effective virtue by which they instrumentally make the change ( 3. q. 78. a. 4. c. ) be not an absurdity rather than a proper miracle . For words Physically move but the air first , and the terminus of the aires motion ( e.g. the ear ) next : and next that , if it be an intellectual , or other animal recipient , the sense , and fantasie next , and so on : But the Bread and Wine have no sense nor fantasie nor Intellect : And to say that the moved aire is the means of turning them into the body and blood of Christ , is still to multiply miracles . 5. Do they not too much magnifie the common work ( and consequently the office ) of a Priest , above the work of a Pope or Prelate , who seldom consecrate ? when the Priest worketh so many Miracles more than they ? 6. They conclude that a sinner that hath Voluntatem peccandi receiveth Baptism in vain , as to its ends of pardoning him , and therefore should not receive it ( Concil . Rom. Epist . Gregor . 7. Aquin. 3. q. 68. a. 4. c. &c. ) And yet , be the sinner never such an hypocrite or Infidel , he eateth Christs real flesh nevertheless , yea against his will , if he do but the outward act . 7. Is it not strange that an Infidel receiveth as verily the real flesh and blood of Christ as a Saint , and yet not the benefits or effects ? As if Christs flesh and blood could be in a mans body without his benefit : When he hath promised that he that eateth him , shall live by him . Yet see the measures of their faith and Church : Saith Aquinas ( 3. q. 80. a. 3. ad 2. ) [ Vnless perhaps an Infidel intend to Receive that which the Church giveth , though he have not true faith about other Articles or about this Sacrament ] then he may receive sacramentally . CHAP. VI. The fourth Argument . This Miraculous Transubstantiation is expresly contrary to the Word of God , in Scripture . Arg. 4. THe Papists say that there is no bread after the words of Consecration : Gods word saith , There is Bread after the Consecration : Therefore the Papists speak contrary to the Word of God. I. In 1 Cor. 11. It is called expresly BREAD after consecration no less than three times in three verses together , 26 , 27 , 28. [ For as oft as ye eat this Bread and Drink this cup , ye shew the Lords death till he come . Wherefore whosoever shall eat this Bread and drink this cup of the Lord unworthily shall be guilty of the Body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself , and so let him eat of that Bread and drink of that Cup ] : Here they that call for express words of Scripture for our doctrine , without our consequences , may see their own faith expresly contradicted , and our opposition justified : The Holy Ghost here expresly calleth it Bread : And yet no expresness nor evidence will satisfie them . P. By Bread is meant that which was Bread before , or else that which nourisheth the soul as Bread doth the body : And so it is metonymically only called Bread , as Christs Flesh is called Bread in Joh. 6. R. Why then do you call for express texts of Scripture as our proof , when that expresness signifieth nothing with you ; but you can say , It is a metonymie or a metaphor at your pleasure . But you say so against notorious Evidence : The Apostle calleth it Bread so often over and over , as if he had foreseen your inhumane heresie : He calleth it The Bread which is to be Eaten , joyned with Drinking the Cup ; never once calling either of them the Flesh or Blood of Christ , but as he reciteth Christs words which he expoundeth . Yea he telleth us that eating this bread , and drinking this cup , is to shew the Lords death till he come ; where he calleth us to look back at Christs death as past , in our Commemoration , and to look forward to his personal coming as future ; but never telleth us that we must kill Christ and eat him our selves ( when we have made him ) , nor that his body is there present under the accidents of Bread and Wine . But the rest of the Scriptures as expresly justifie our doctrine . 1 Cor. 10.15 . The Cup of blessing which we bless , is it not the Communion ( or Communication ) of the blood of Christ : And the Bread which we break , is it not the communion ( or participation ) of the body of Christ ? ] Here it is the Cup and the Bread after Consecration , if the Holy Ghost may be believed . And in the next words the Apostle repeateth it in his reason [ For we being Many are One Bread , and One Body ▪ For we all partake of one Bread ( or Loaf ) . ] Is not here express proof ? So Act. 20.7 . When we came together to break Bread — And v. 11. He ascending , and breaking bread , and eating &c. Here it is twice more called Bread after the Consecration ( which ever went before the Breaking ) . So Act. 2.42 , 46. It is twice more called Breaking of Bread. And what else can the recitation of Christs institution mean , 1 Cor. 11.23 , 24. Panem accepisse , fregisse ; to have taken Bread , and having given thanks , to have broken ? What is it that he brake ? It s non-sence if it have no accusative case that it respects ? And plain Grammatical construction tells us then , that it must be that before mentioned , What he Took he blessed , and brake and gave : But he took Bread and the Cup — . The same is in Mat. 26 , 26 , 27. and the other Evangelists . II. The Scriptures expresly ( Act. 2 , &c. ) make the Killing of Christ , and drawing his blood , to be the heynous sin of the Jews , for which some Repented and others were cast off : Therefore it is not to be believed that Christ did first kill or tear himself , and shed his own blood ; or that his disciples did kill him , or tear his flesh and shed his blood , before the Jews did it . And if they tore his flesh and drank his blood , and yet killed him not , the event altered not the fact : The Jews did but break his flesh and shed his blood . If you fly to a good intention , Paul will come in for some further excuse for his persecution . III. 1 Cor. 10.21 . Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord , and the cup of Devils : Ye cannot be partakers of the Lords table and of the table of Devils . — Here note 1. That the same phrase is used of the Participation of the Lords mysteries and the Devils . But it was not the flesh and blood or the substance of Devils which the Idolaters ever intended to partake of : but only their sacrifices . 2. It is here called only the Table and the Cup , and not the flesh and the blood . 3. It is said that They could not partake of both : whereas according to the Papists doctrine , if a man should partake of the Idols sacrifice in the morning , and of the Lords Table in the evening ( without repentance , ) he should really partake of Christs own flesh and blood ; which the Text saith cannot be done . P. It meaneth only , You cannot Lawfully , or you ought not to partake of both , but not that it is impossible or never done . R. No doubt but it meaneth that They ought not , or cannot Lawfully ; but that 's not all : The text plainly meaneth , You cannot have communion with both : You may take the bread and wine at your peril ; but you cannot partake of it as a sacramental feast which God prepareth you , and so partake of Christ therein . And the same is said ( expounding this ) 2 Cor. 6.15 . What concord hath Christ with Belial — and what agreement hath the temple of God with Idols ? ] Intimating that Communion with God and Idols , Christ and Belial , are ( so far ) inconsistent : But by the Papists doctrine an Idolater and Son of Belial may partake of the very substance of Christs body and blood , into his body , as verily as he partaketh of his meat and drink . IV. The Scripture teacheth us expresly to judge of sensible things by sense . Luk. 24.39 . [ Behold my hands and my feet , that it is I my self : handle me , and see ; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have . And when he had thus spoken , he shewed them his hands and his feet . ] And v. 43 , [ he did eat before them ] to confirm their faith . But they could have no more sensible evidence of any of this , than we have of the being of Bread and Wine , or some sensible substance after Consecration . Joh. 2.9 . they tasted the water turned into Wine , and were convinced . P. But the Body of Christ here is not a sensible thing . R. But Bread and Wine are sensible things . P. But They are not There ; and so are no objects of sense . R. But all our senses say that They are there ; and by them we must judge . P. Your senses perceive nothing but Accidents : and your understanding must believe God , and so ( as you noted out of Aquinas before ) there is no deceit either of sense or Intellect . R. Though this be answered fully before , I will again tell you , That these two notorious falshoods are all that you have to say against Humanity in this case , that 's worth the noting . I. It is false that you say that sense perceiveth not substance : When I take up a staff or stone in my hand , I do not only feel Roughness or Smoothness , &c. but a substance : It is a quantitative , and qualitative substance , which I feel , taste , smell , see and hear : And this I perceive by sensation it self , as the medium to the Intellect . It is not the sense indeed , but the Intellect that giveth it the Logical notion or definition of a substance ; but it is the sense it self that by sensation perceiveth it ; and to deny this is to deny all sense . And if it were not so , How could any such substance be known ? when it cannot come into the Intellect but by the sense ? II. ☞ Your great cheat ( or errour ) is by confounding the first and natural-necessary perception of a sensibile sensatum or incomplex object , by the Intellect , with the second conception of the Names of things , or of Organical second notions , and the third conception of them Artificially by the use of these names and Organical notions , and the fourth perception of Consequents from those conceptions . To know by Believing is but the third or fourth sort of knowledge , and presupposeth the two first . If a man had never heard a name or word in his life ; yet by sensation as soon as he saw , smelt , tasted , heard , handled things , his Intellect would have had a perception of the Thing it self as it was sensate ; And this is the Intellects first perception : And this is it which falleth under our question , Whether the Intellect in this first perception of a substance or Thing as sensate , be deceived or not , when the Thing hath the Conditions of an object before mentioned . 2. Next this we learn or invent Names and organical notions for things : And whether these be true or false , and whether they be apt or inept is all one . This is but an arbitrary work of art . 3. Next this we conceive of things by the Means of these Names and second notions , and examine the Congruence : and so we define them : And this is but a work of Artificial Reasoning , and presupposeth the first Natural necessary perception . Now Faith belongeth partly to this , and partly to the fourth , which is The raising of Conclusions , and the weaving of methods ; and presupposeth the first , yea and the second : It is but an assent given by the means of an Extrinsick Testimony of God , that this particular Word is True , &c. Now if the Intellect in its first Perception ( natural and necessary ) of the Thing it self , as sensate , be deceived , if faith should be contrary to it , 1. It must be such a Faith which is the immediate contrary perception of a sensate object ; which is no faith , nor is any such possible , ( properly called faith ) : 2. And if faith can come after and undeceive the Intellect , by saying that God saith otherwise , yet this would be no prevention of its deception , but a cure , presupposing the said deception as the disease to be cured . So that to say as Aquinas that faith preventeth the deceit of the Intellect , is a falshood contrary to the nature of man , and his natural way of acting , as he is composed of soul and body . I have said this over again , lest errour get advantage by the brevity and unobservedness of that which I said before . CHAP. VII . Argum. 5. All these miracles have not the least proof ; yea , the Scriptures fully direct us to a cross interpretation of the Papists pretended proofs ; which also are renounced by themselves . I Know of no Scripture proof in the World that the Papists pretend to , but the words , This is my Body , and This is my Blood , and such like . And that these are no proof I shall fully prove to any impartial man. I. The very nature of the Sacrament instituted by Christ with his expressed End , command our Reason to expound the word [ is ] of signification , representation or exhibition , and the word [ Body ] and [ Blood ] of a new Relative form only , that is , of a body and blood Representative , ( which is all one in effect ) : As a piece of Gold , Silver , or Brass , is by the law and stamp turned really into the Kings Current Coine ; and so hath a new Relative form : so that you may truly say that there is a change made of the Gold , or Silver into the Kings Coyn : and it is no more to be called meer Gold or Silver ( though it be Gold and Silver still ) , because the form denominateth , and the new form is now that in question which must denominate . Or as a Prince that is marryed in effigie or by a Representative to a woman , is not there personally ; and yet it is aptly said , This is the Prince which is betrothed or marryed to thee . Or as we say of Pictures , This is Peter , or Paul , or John. Or as when we deliver a man possession of a House by a Key , or of Land by a twig and a turf , or of a Church by the belrope , &c. and say , Take , this is such a House , or such a piece of Land , or Church , &c. As this is ordinary intelligible speech among all men , so Christ tells them that he would be so understood . 1. In that his Real natural body spake this , of the Bread and Wine which was not his natural body : His real natural body was present , visible , entire , unwounded , his blood unspilt , and did eat and drink ( the other , as the Papists hold , as being the same ) : And can any living man imagine that the Disciples who understood not his Death , Resurrection , Ascension , &c. yet understood by these four words , when they saw Christs body alive and present , that this Bread and Wine was that same Body and Blood , without any more questioning ? 2. In that he bids them , Do this in Remembrance of him ; which plainly speaketh a commemorating sign : Who will say at his last farewell when he is parting with his friends , I will stay among you , or keep me among you , in Remembrance of me ? So for Christ to say , Eat me in remembrance of me , were strange . II. It may put all out of Controversie to find , that Christs words of one half of the Sacrament are ( as they confess ) figurative ; therefore the other must be so judged also . Luk. 22.20 . This Cup is the new Testament in my blood , which is shed for you : 1 Cor. 11.25 . [ This Cup is the new Testament in my blood . ] And here no man denyeth a double Trope at least : no man expoundeth it , that the Cup or the Wine was the New Testament it self . And yet it is as expresly said , as it is that the Bread is the Body it self . How then will they prove that one is spoken properly , and the other figuratively ? III. There is no more found in these words to assert the Bread to be Christs Body , than is found in a multitude of such phrases in Scripture asserting things which all men expound otherwise . As in Joh. 15.1 . I am the Vine and my Father is the husbandman : Joh. 10.7 , 9. I am the door — Joh. 10.14 . I am the good Shepherd and know my Sheep : Psal . 22.6 . I am a worm and no man ( which being a prophesie of Christ , a Heretick imitating you , might deny Christs humanity : ) 1 Cor. 10.4 . That Rock was Christ — 1 Cor. 12.27 . Ye are the body of Christ — Mat. 5.13 , 14. Ye are the Salt of the earth : Ye are the lights of the World — Joh. 6.63 . The words that I speak unto you they are spirit and they are Life . Abundance such are in the Scripture , as All flesh is grass : Christ is the Lamb of God : the Lyon of the Tribe of Juda ; the bright Morning Star ; the head Corner Stone , &c. And it is yet more fully satisfactory , that the Hebrew constantly putteth [ is ] for [ signifieth ] as you may find in all the old Testament ; having no other word so fit to express [ signifying ] by : And as Christ spake after that manner , so the New Testament ordinarily imitateth ; As Daniel and the Revelation agree in saying , of the Visions , This is such or such a thing , instead of this signifieth it . So Christ , Matth. 13.21 , 22 , 23 , 37 , 38 , 39. He that soweth is the Son of man : the field is the world : the good seed are the Children of the Kingdom ; the tares are the children of the wicked one : the enemy is the Devil , the Harvest is the end . The reapers are the Angels — And thus ordinarily . IV. Yea , the same kind of phrase used before in the Passeover , teacheth us how to expound this : Exod. 12.11 . Ye shall eat it in haste , It is the Lords Passeover — vers . 27. It is the sacrifice of the Lords Passeover . V. Yea the ordinary way and phrase of Christs teaching may yet farther put us out of doubt . For he usually taught by Parables , and expresseth his sense by such assertions : As Matth. 13.3 . Behold a sower went out to sow , &c. Luk. 15.11 , 12. A certain man had two sons , and the younger said , &c. Luk. 12.16 . The ground of a certain Rich man , &c. Luk. 16.19 . There was a certain Rich man , &c. Mat. 21.28 . A certain man had two sons , &c. Vers . 33. There was a certain housholder which planted a Vineyard , &c. The Gospel aboundeth with such instances , which teach us how to interpret these words of Christ . VI. But most certainly all those forementioned texts teach it us , which expresly call it Bread after the Consecration . If we will not believe the Holy Ghost himself , who so frequently calleth it bread , it is in vain to alledge any text of Scripture in the Controversie . Now to feign a course of ordinary Miracles , Greater and more than Christs , and this to every Priest , how ignorant and impious soever ; to pretend that every Pope and Bishop can for money sell the Holy Ghost or the Gift of Miracles , in Ordination ; and all this when no eye seeth the Miracles , when it is confessed that Angels cannot naturally see it , yea when all mens senses perceive the contrary ; and all this because , that Christ said This is my Body , while abundance such sayings in Scripture , yea the words about the Cup it self , are confessed to be tropical , and when the Scripture expresly telleth us that there is Bread. Judge whether it be possible for Satan to have put a greater scorn upon the Christian faith , or a greater scandal before the enemies of it , or a greater hinderance to the Worlds Conversion , than to tell them , you must renounce not only your Humanity but all common sense , if you will be Christians , and be saved , or suffered to enjoy your estates and lives . VII . Lastly , It is ordinary with their subtilest Schoolmen to confess that this their doctrine of Transubstantiation cannot be proved from Scripture , and that they believe it only because their Church saith it , which must be believed , and because that by the same spirit which wrote the Scripture , the Church is taught thus to expound it . So that all their faith of this is by them resolved into a phanatick pretence of Inspiration ; As I have elsewhere shewed out of Durandus , Paludanus , Scotus , Ockam , Quodl . 6. li. 5. q. 31. Rada vol. 4. Cont. 7. a. 1. pag. 164 , 165. And no General Council ever determined it till that at Rome under Innoc. 3. Where saith Matth. Paris , many decrees were proposed or brought in by the Pope which some liked and some disliked . And this was 1215 years after Christs birth . And Stephanus Aeduensis is the first in whom the name of Transubstantiation is found , about the year 1100. CHAP. VIII . Arg. 6. From the Nature of a Sacrament . Arg. 6. THat Doctrine which by consequence denyeth the Lords Supper to be a true Sacrament , is false . The Papists doctrine of Transubstantiation by consequence denyeth the Lords Supper to be a true Sacrament : Therefore the Papists doctrine of Transubstantiation is false . The Major I know no man that will deny that we have now to deal with . The Minor needeth no other proof , than the common definition of a Sacrament , and Christs own description of this Sacrament in the Scripture . I. Aquinas concludeth 3. q. 60. a. 1. that a Sacrament is a sign ; and a. 2. that it is a sign of a thing sacred as it sanctifieth men ; and a. 3. that it is a Rememorative sign of Christs passion , a demonstrative sign of Gods Grace , and a prognosticating sign of future Glory : And a. 4. that it must be Res sensibilis a sensible thing , it being natural to man to come to the knowledge of things intelligible by things sensible , and the Sacrament signifieth to man spiritual and intelligible Goods : and a. 5. that they must be things of Divine determination , &c. But , 1. If the Bread and Wine be gone , there is nothing left to be a sign , a Real sensible sign , to lead us to the knowledge of spiritual and intelligible things . If they say that the species of Bread and Wine is the sensible sign , what mean they by that cheating word [ species ? ] Not the specifying form or matter , but only the outward appearance . And is it a true or a false appearance ? If True , then there is Bread and Wine : If false , it is a false sign : And what is that false appearance which God maketh a Sacrament of ? It is plainly nothing but the Accidents of Bread and Wine without the substance . But , 1. When they take the Cup from the Laity , and deny them half the Sacrament , sure there are then no Accidents of Wine . Is there either Quantity , Colour , Smell , Taste , &c. of Wine ? They will not say it . So that here is no sensible sign as to one half . 2. And herein they deal far more inhumanely with us than the Infidels themselves : For when they plead against Christ and Scripture , they grant that the common principles and Notitiae , which all mankind acknowledge , are the certain unquestionable light of Nature . But the Papists deny not only the Notitias communes , but common sense . It is nothing with them to damn all the world , that will not believe contradictions . They say that the Quantity of Nothing endued with the Qualities , the Actions , the Passion , the Relations , the quando , ubi , situs of nothing , is the Sacramental sign . Inhumane contradiction ! 1. Gassendus and others say truly , that an Accident is not properly Res , but Modus Rei , ( vel Qualitas , as he calleth it . ) 2. Quantity doth not Really differ a re quanta : and to say , [ The Length , Breadth , Profundity of Nothing ] is a notorious contradiction . And so it is of the other Accidents . There is no Real sensible sign , and therefore no Sacrament , where there is nothing , but the quantity , colour , taste , smell , &c. of Nothing . 3. And they cannot , they dare not say , that Christs Real Flesh and Blood , is the Sacramental sign : For , 1. It is not sensible ; 2. It should be then the sign of it self : The sign and the thing signified cannot be the same . II. The very substantiality or corporeity of the Bread and Wine as such , is part of the sign : As Christ saith , Behold and handle me , a spirit hath not flesh and blood , as ye see me have : So he taketh Corporeal bread and wine in their sight , and breaketh it , and poureth it out , and giveth it them to see , to feel , to taste , to eat , that they may know it is true bread and wine , the signs of his True Body and Blood. So that to deny the Corporeity is to deny Christs Corporeity in its signs ; and tendeth to the old Heresie of them that held that Christ had but a phantastical body , or was not indeed Crucified , but seemed so to be : They teach Hereticks to argue , The sign was no Real substance : Therefore neither the thing signified . III. The nutritive use of the bread and wine was another part of the sign , as all confess : As bread and wine are the Nutriment of the body and life of man , so is Christ crucified meritoriously , and Christ glorified efficiently , the life of the soul . And he that denyeth the Nutritive sign , denyeth the Sacrament : But it is not the false appearance , or phantasm , or accidents of bread and wine , that are the natural nourishers of man : Therefore he that denyeth the nourishing substance , denyeth the Real sensible Sacramental sign . Saith Bellarmin de Euchar. l. 3. c. 23. [ In the Eucharist we receive not corporal food that the flesh may be thence nourished and made fat : but only to signifie inward refection . ] So that he acknowledged this to be part of the Sacramental sign . So Gregor . Valent. saith that [ The chief and essential signification of this Sacrament is that which by external nourishment is signified , the internal spiritual refection of the soul by the body of Christ . ] So that denying the nourishing sign is destroying the essence of the Sacrament . IV. The breaking of the Bread and pouring out the Wine is confessedly another part of the Sacramental sensible sign . But , 1. When there is no Wine , there is no pouring it out : 2. And if there be no Bread neither , there is no breaking it : Can that be broken which is not ? They that deny ( as the Papists do ) that the Bread is broken ( saying that only the Quantity of Nothing is broken ) deny the sensible Sacramental sign . And here I may note , that we do not well to contend with them for denying the Cup only to the Laity , and granting them only the Bread , when indeed they grant neither , but deny them both : There is ( say they ) no more Bread than Wine , but only a false appearance of it . V. Lastly , The Apostle 1 Cor. 10.16 , 17. sheweth that one Sacramental use of the Bread was to signifie the Vnity of Christians , who are one Bread , and one Body , as one Loaf is made of many Corns . But that cannot be One , which is Nothing : Ens , Vnum & Verum convertuntur . To say with Greg. Valent. and Bellarmine , that because it was Once bread , and one bread , therefore the accidents of it remaining now signifie that we are one bread ; is but to say , that There was once a fit sign , but then there wanted the form : Now after Consecration , there is no Sacramental sign , but yet there is a Sacramental form : And in what Matter is that form ? Doubtless it can be no where but in the Brain or Mind of man : That is , man can Remember that once he saw Bread : This is the species of bread in his Intellect : This species is the sign : And so we have found out another sense of the species of bread , than many think on ; viz. It is that which is called The species intentionalis , or the Idea or conception of bread in a mans fantasie and mind : And so indeed the Sacrament is with them an invisible thing : for it is only in mens minds : There is no Sacrament on the Altar , but in the thoughts : And so who hath a Sacrament , and who not , we know not : And a man may by thinking make a Sacrament when he will. CHAP. IX . Of the Novelty of Transubstantiation . R. I Once thought to have next proved out of the Current of Antiquity , the Novelty of this inhumane doctrine of the Papists , and that the Antients commonly confessed , that there was true Bread and Wine remaining in the Sacrament after Consecration : But , 1. I should but tempt and weary ordinary Readers , who neither need any such arguments ( having Sense and Scripture to give them satisfaction ) nor are able to try them : For it is an indirect kind of dealing , to expect that the unlearned , or those that are strangers to the Writings of the Antients , should believe this or that to be their mind and sayings , meerly because I tell them so . And if they read the plainest words , they know not whether I rightly recite them , but by believing me . And it is as unreasonable on the other side , that the Papists should expect , either by their Citations or their general Affirmations , that the Readers should believe them , that the Antients were for Transubstantiation . Till men can both read the Authors themselves , and try the Copies , they can have no sure historical notice what the Father 's held , except by the common consent of credible Reporters or Historians : Not while one side saith , they say this , and the other side saith they say the contrary , and yet their Books are to be seen by all . We may bid them believe us , and the Papists may bid them believe them , and a Priest may cheat them by saying , that his word is the Churches : But though this will produce a humane belief in the Hearers or Readers , as by advantages it is most taking with them , yet that fallible belief is all the Certainty that it can afford them . Therefore I think it most ingenuous and reasonable to give men such arguments as they are capable of understanding and improving to certain satisfaction . 2. Because they that can study such Authors as have gathered the sentences of the Antients in this Controversie , may find it so fully done by Edmund . Albertinus in his second Book , that they can need no more . P. You know that Albertinus is answered . R. And I know that he is again Defended : And who doubteth but you can answer me copiously , if I did maintain that the Sun giveth light : What is it that a man cannot talk for ? especially they that can hope to perswade all the Christian world , that they must be damned , unless they will believe that all mens senses are deceived , and that God is the great Deceiver of the world . P. But how can you think to please God and be saved , if you be not of the same faith as the Church hath alwayes been of ? All the antient Fathers and Catholick Church were for Transubstantiation ; and are you wiser and in a safer way than they ? R. You have lost your credit with me so far , as that your word is no oracle to me : If I must not believe my own nor other mens senses , I am not bound to believe you : at least when I know you speak falsly . But I pray tell me , How know you that the Church and Fathers did so believe ? P. Because the present Church saith so ; which cannot err . R. Do not your own Writers say , that a General Council and Pope may err in matter of fact ? and that they did so in Condemning Pope Honorius and in other Cases ? P. Yes : but this is a matter of faith . R. Is it not a matter of fact , what this or that man said , and what doctrine the Church at such a time did teach and hold ? But how know you that the present Church doth say so , that this was the faith of the antient Church ? P. By their testimony in a General Council . R. Did you hear the Council say so ? P. No : but the Church telleth me that the Council said so . R. Who is it that you now call the Church which tells you so ? P. My Superiours , who have it from the Pope , and their Fathers . R. Are your Superiours that told you so , the Church ? Or is the Pope the Church ? If so , What need you say a Council is the Church ? And how know you that the Pope and your Superiours err not in a matter of fact ? P. I know it by the Decrees of the Council yet extant . R. 1. But if sense be deceitful , how know you that you ever read such Decrees ? 2. How know you that they are not forgeries , or since corrupted ? P. The Church is a safe keeper of its , own Records . R. Still what mean you by the Church ? The Vulgar neither keep nor understand your Councils . The Council of Trent is long ceased : No other General Council hath been since , to tell you what are the true Decrees of that Council . The Pope is not the Church : And he may err in a matter of fact : What then is the Church that tells you certainly what the Council of Trent decreed ? Tell me if you can . P. We have such common historical Evidence and Tradition , as you have for your Acts of Parliament when the Parliament is ended . The present Governours preserve them . R. Very good : It is the Office of the Governours to take that Care , but therein they are not indefectible and infallible ; but they and the published Laws , and the notice of the whole Land , and the Judicial proceedings by them in the Courts of Judicature make up a Certain Historical Evidence . And so it may be in your Case : And when you have talkt your utmost , you can shew no more . And have not we the same Writings of Fathers and Councils as you have ? You dare not deny it . Why then may not we know what is in them as well as you ? And I pray you tell me , Whether your Antiquaries , such as Albaspinaeus , Sixtus Senensis , Petavius , Sirmondus , &c. do prove what Cyprian , Optatus , Augustine , &c. held , by the judgement of the Pope or Councils , or by citing the words of the Authors themselves ? And do Crab , Binnius , Surius , Caranza , &c. prove what one Council said by the authority of another , or by the Records themselves , yet visible to all ? P. Those Records themselves , even the visible Writings of the Fathers and Councils are for Transubstantiation . R. Till you have perswaded me out of my senses , I will not believe you . I pray you tell me if you can of any Author or Council that ever used the name [ Transubstantiation ] before Stephanus Aeduensis after the year 1100 , de Sacram. Altar . c. 13. P. Though the name be new , the Doctrine is not . R. Tell me next , what General Council did ever determine it , before the Council of Laterane under Innoc . 3. an . 1215. P. Not expresly : for General Councils need not mention it , till the Albigenses Hereticks gave them occasion by denying it . R. Was it an Article of faith before ? If it were , either the Councils are not the measure of your faith , or it is very mutable . P. Among all your questionings answer me this question if you can . If that General Council decreed Transubstantiation , what could move them so to do , if it were not the faith of the Church before ? Were they not all of the same mind the day before they did it ? and so the day before that , and the day before that , &c. Or do you think that they were against Transubstantiation the night before , and awaked all of another mind the next morning ? What could make all the Pastors of the Church think that this was the true faith , if they did not think it was the antient faith ? And what could make them think it the antient faith , if it were not so ? Did not they know what their Fathers held ? And did not their Fathers know what their Fathers held ? The same I say of the Council of Trent also . R. Thus men that must not believe the common sense of mankind , can believe the dreaming conjectures of their brains , and sit in a corner , and thence tell the world what can and what cannot be done by publick assemblies , at many hundred years and miles distance . Who would not laugh at a Fryer , that in his Cell would tell by moral conjectures , all the thoughts and motions of an Army or Navy , that never saw them , and contrary to the experience of those that were on the ground and interessed in their Councils and actions . Observe how many false suppositions go to make up your cheats . 1. You suppose this a true General Council , which is a pack of factious Prelates subject to the Pope , and assembled at Rome in his own Palace , under the awe of his presence and power . And as if the small number after at Trent had spake the minds of all the Churches . 2. You suppose all the members of a Council to be of one mind : when as they determine by the Major Vote . And oft times the difference is not above two or three , and its possible one Voice may turn the scales : And perhaps one , or two , or ten may be absent one day , and present another , and so the Cry of [ the Judgement of all the Bishops in the world ] may signifie no more , but that two or three of the other side staid a little too long at dinner that day , while the other party carryed it by their absence . And I pray you where hath God promised , that the faith of an hundred and one shall not fail , when the faith of ninety nine of the same company may fail ( supposing the Council to be two hundred ) : Or why are the one hundred and one the Bishops of all the world , and not the ninety nine ? 3. Do you think we never read the History of the Council of Trent ? and before them , of the Councils of Ariminum , Ephes . 2 , yea , Calcedon , & c. ? And yet must we suppose , that men come thither all of one mind ? when they have such shameful Contentions ? Such cunning contrivances to get the majority of Votes ? Such awe and terror from the power of the Chief ? and such carnal dependances and respects to their several worldly interests ? Yea , sometimes fighting it out unto blood ( as Dioscorus and Flavianus case doth shamefully evince ? ) 4. And must we suppose mens minds to be changed in their sleep , when the awe or the oratory of other men change them ? Do we not know the Course of the Parliaments of England of later times ? How much a few men of more than ordinary parts and interest , can do with the rest ? And how oft the major Vote hath gone against the sense of the far greater number of the House ? 5. And do we not know , that ordinarily he that is sent to the Council from a Province , is chosen as it pleaseth the Pope , the King , or the Archbishop , or some in greatest power ; and rarely according to the free-will and sense of the greater part of the Clergy . If five hundred to one of the Clergy of a Kingdom be of one mind , and the Prince , or chief men , or powerfullest Prelates be of another , they will send a Bishop thither of their own mind . 6. Do you think we know not that all the Papists are not past the third or fourth part of the Christian world ? Why then should their sense be called the sense of all the Christian world ? 7. Do you think we know not how little reason you have to say , that the Council at Laterane spake the sense of all the Church ? When the Decrees were but proposed by Pope Innocent , and recited there without any due Synodical deliberation , and some liked them , and some disliked them ? as you may find in Math. Paris in K. John , Nauclerus Gener. 41. ad an . 1215. Godefridus ad an . 1215. Platina in Vita Innoc. 3. And this one of your late false Scriblers in a Book for Toleration also saith ; Though the Disputers against Dr. Gunning and Dr. Pierson copiously and confidently justifie that Council : and indeed with you it passeth for an Approved one . 8. And were not your arguing as strong for the Council of Ephes . 2. and that at Arim. and Sirmium , and divers at Constantinople disallowed , and those at Constance and Basil , ( where were many times the number of the Council at Trent ) ? Did these Councils all go to bed of one mind , and rise of another ? Or did they not know what their Fathers faith was ? Why then do you reprobate them , and deny that which they decreed as of faith ? Is it not a shame , to talk of [ the Bishops of all the world ] and [ Tradition from their Fathers ] when your meaning is but that All these may err , and do oft err , unless one man , the Pope approve them ? But where sense is renounced , we must not expect modesty . P. But the antient Councils and Fathers are against you , as is to be seen . R. It is utterly false : I will not abuse the Reader so as to carry him into a Wood , and lose him among a multitude of old Books , when he hath more satisfactory evidence enough at hand . But , I. As to all your Citations from true antiquity ( for your forged Authors and corrupted Testimonies we regard not ) they are answered by this one true observation , that when old Writers sometimes say , that after consecration it is [ No more bread and wine , but the body and blood of Christ ] , their whole Context plainly sheweth , that they mean that it is no more MEER or Common Bread and Wine ; and usually they so speak . Because forma denominat , and it is the ultimate form that denominateth , all antecedent forms being but the dispositio materiae . As if the question be , Whether a Shilling be Silver or Money ? Before the Coining , it was but Silver ; but after , it is no more Common Silver , but Money : Silver is but the matter , and not the denominating form . Is your Garment to be called Cloth , or a Cloak ? Before the making it was but Cloth , but now it is not meer Cloth , but a Cloak . The same I may say of the Kings Crown and Scepter , or of any Relative , Representative or Personating form that is added to any matter or man. This is the plain meaning of the Antients . II. And as to what they say against you , I will now only give you a few brief instances . 1. Justin Martyr . in Dial. cum Tryph. saith , [ The offering of Flower delivered to be offered for them that were cleansed of the Leprosie , was a Type of the BREAD of the Eucharist which our Lord Jesus Christ commanded us to make in remembrance of his passion , &c. ] And more plainly Apolog. 2. ( indeed the first ) [ When the President hath given thanks , and all the people acclaimed , those that with us are called Deacons , distribute to every one present BREAD and WINE and Water , and bring them to those that are absent . ] 2. Irenaeus saith lib. 4. c. 34. [ For as the Bread which is of the Earth receiving the divine invocation , is not now Common Bread , but the Eucharist , consisting of two things , the Terrene and the Celestial , &c. ] See more out of him in Albertinus , at large . 3. Tertullian cont . Marcion l. 3. c. 19. [ Calling Bread his Body , that hence you may understand that he gave to Bread the Figure of his body . ] And before l. 1. [ He reprobated not — Bread , by which he Representeth his very Body . ] And lib. 4. cap. 40. [ The Bread which he took and distributed to his Disciples he made his body , saying , This is my Body ; that is , The figure of my body . — And what he would have Bread then signifie , he sufficiently declared , calling Bread his Body . ] And it is a notable passage of Tertullians against the Academicks that questioned sense , lib. de anim . c. 17. [ What dost thou , O procacious Academick ? Thou overthrowest the whole state of life : Thou disturbest the whole order of nature ; Thou blindest the providence of God himself ; as if he had made mens lying and deceitful senses to be the Lords , in understanding , honouring , dispensing and enjoying all his works ▪ Is not the whole Condition ( of man ) subadministred by these . ] And after [ We may not call those senses into question , lest Christ himself must deliberate of their certainty ( or must distrust them ) . Lest it may be said , that he falsly saw Satan cast down from Heaven , or falsly heard the voyce of his Father testifying of him ; or was deceived when he touched Peters Wives Mother — or perceived not a true taste of the Wine which he Consecrated in the memorial of his blood . ] Many such places are in Tertullian . 4. Origen is large and plain to the same purpose in Matth. 25. calling it [ Bread and a Typical and Symbolical Body , which profiteth none but the worthy receivers , and that according to the proportion of their faith , and which no wicked man doth eat , &c. ] Many more such places Albertinus vindicateth . 5. Cyprians Epistle to Magnus is too large this way to be recited . As [ Even the Sacrifices of the Lord declare the Christian Vnanimity , connexed by firm and inseparable love : For when the Lord calleth Bread his body ( or his body bread ) made up of many united grains , &c. And when he calleth the Wine his Blood , &c. ] So Epist . ad Caecil . 6. Eusebius Caesar . demonstr . Evang. l. 1. c. 10. [ Celebrating daily the memorial of the body and blood of Christ ] — [ Seeing then we receive the memorial of this Sacrifice to be perfected on the Table , by the symbols of his body and most precious blood — ] And l. 8. [ He delivered to us to use , Bread as the symbol of his own body . ] 7. Athanasius's words are recited by Albertinus l. 2. p. 400 , 401 , &c. 8. Basil . de Spir. Sanct. saith , [ Which of the Saints hath left us in Writing the words of invocation , when the Bread of the Eucharist , and the Cup of blessing are shewed ? ] 9. Ephrem ( in Biblioth . Photii p. 415. Edit . August . ) saith , [ The body of Christ , which believers receive , loseth not his sensible substance , and is not separated from the intelligible grace . ] And ad eos qui filii Dei , &c. [ Take notice diligently how taking Bread in his hands , he blessed it , and brake it , for a figure of his immaculate body , and he blessed the Cup and gave it to his Disciples as a figure of his pretious blood . ] 10. Cyrillus ( vel . Johan . ) Hierosol . Catech. Mystag . calls the bread indeed Christs body , but fully expounds himself de Chrysmate , Cat. 3. pag. 235. [ For as the Bread of the Eucharist , after the invocation of the Holy Ghost , is no more Common Bread , but is the Body of Christ : So also this Holy Oyntment is no more meer Oyntment , nor ( if any one had rather so speak ) common , now it is consecrated ; but it is a Gift ( or Grace ) which causeth the presence of Christ and the Holy Ghost ; that is , of his Divinity . ] As the Oyntment is Grace , or the Holy Ghost , just so the Bread is the body of Christ , as he saith after Cat. 4. It is not only what we see ( Bread and Wine ) but more . 11. Hierom cont . Jovinian . l. 2. The Lord as a type ( or figure ) of his blood , offered not water but wine . 12. Ambrose de Sacram. l. 4. c. 4. [ This therefore we assert , How that which is Bread , can yet be the body of Christ . ] — And [ If Christs speech had so much force , that it made that begin to be which was not , how much more is it operative , that the things that were , both Be , and be changed into something else . ] And [ As thou hast drunk the similitude of death , so thou drinkest the similitude of pretious blood . ] 13. Theodoret in Dialog . Immutab . dealeth with an Eutychian Heretick , who defended his Error by pleading that the bread in the Eucharist was changed into the body of Christ : To whom saith Theodoret , [ The Lord who hath called that meat and bread which is naturally his Body , and who again called himself a Vine , did honour the visible signs with the appellation of his body and blood ; not having changed their Nature , but added Grace to Nature . ] And in Dialog . 2. In confus . he saith , [ The divine Mysteries are signs of the true body . ] And again , answering the Eutychians pretence of a change he saith , [ By the net which thou hast made , art thou taken . ☞ For even after the Consecration , the Mystical signs change not their nature : For they remain in all their first SVBSTANCE , figure and form , and are Visible , and to be Handled as before . But they are understood to be the things which they were made , and are believed and venerated as made that which they are believed to be . ] Would you have plainer words ? 14. Gelasius cont . Nest . & Eutych . saith , [ Verily the Sacraments of the body and blood of Christ which we take , is a Divine thing , for which and by which we are made partakers of the divine nature . ☞ And yet it ceaseth not to be the Substance and Nature of Bread and Wine . And certainly the Image and similitude of the body and blood of Christ are celebrated in the action of the Mysteries . ] What can be plainer ? 15. Cyril . Alexandr . in John 4. cap. 14. saith , [ He gave to his believing disciples fragments of Bread , saying , Take , Eat , This is my body . ] 16. Facundus lib. 9. cap. 5. pag. 404. ( as cited by P. Molin . de Novitate Papismi ) [ We call that the body and blood of Christ which is the Sacrament of his body , in the consecrated Bread and Cup. ☞ Not that the Bread is properly his body , and the Cup his blood ; but because they contain the Mysterie of his body and blood . ] But I am so weary of these needless Transcriptions , that I will trouble my self and the Reader with no more . Albertinus will give him enow more who desireth them : And no doubt but with a wet finger they can blot out all these , and teach us to deny the sense of words , as well as our senses . D. But you said also , that the Present Church and its Tradition is against Transubstantiation , as well as the Antient : How prove you that ? R. Just as I prove that the Protestants are against it . By the present Church , I mean the far greater part of all the Christians in the world . The Greeks with the Muscovites , the Armenians , the Syrians , the Copties , the Abassines , and the Protestants , and all the rest who make up about twice or thrice as many as the Papists . That they hold that there is true Bread and Wine after Consecration , all impartial Historians testifie , both Papists and Protestants , and their own several Countreymen ; and also Travellers who have been among them . And their Liturgies , even those that are in the Bibliotheca Patrum put out by themselves , do testifie for those Countreys where they are used ( Though as Bishop Vsher hath detected ) by one words addition they have shamelesly endeavoured to corrupt the Ethiopick Liturgy about the Real presence . ) But I need no more proof of that which no faithful History doth deny . And then I need not prove , that Transubstantiation is against the most General or Common Tradition , For all these Christians , the Greeks , Armenians , Abassines , &c. profess to follow the Religion which they have received from their Ancestors , as well as the Papists do : And if the Papists be to be believed in saying that this is the Religion which they received from their forefathers , Why are not the other to be believed in the same case ? And if the Popish Tradition seem regardable to them , Why should not the Tradition of twice or thrice as many Christians be more regardable ? And if in Councils , the Major Vote must carry it ; Why not in the Judgement and Tradition of the Real body of Christs Church ? As for their trick of excepting against them as Schismaticks and Hereticks , to invalidate their Votes and Judgement , we despise it , as knowing that so any Usurper that would make himself the sole Judge , may say by all the rest of the world : But as they judge of others , they are justly judged by others themselves . CHAP. X. The second part of the Controversie , Whether it be Christs very Flesh and Blood into which the Bread and Wine are Transubstantiated . R. OUr first Question was , Whether there be any Bread and Wine left after Consecration ; Our second is , Whether Christs Real Flesh and Blood be there , as that into which the Bread and Wine are changed ? And herein 1. I do freely grant , that the change of Christs Body by Glorification is so great , as that it may be called , though not a Spirit , yet a spiritual body , as Paul , 1 Cor. 15. saith Ours when Glorified shall be ; that is , A body very like in purity , simplicity , and activity to a Spirit : And the general difference between a spirit and body was not held by many of the Greek Fathers as it is by us : And if the second Council of Nice was Infallible , no Angel or other Creature is Incorporeal : Or as Damasus saith , [ They are Corporeal in respect to God , but Incorporeal in respect to gross bodies . ] The perfect knowledge of the difference between Corpus and Spiritus , except by the formal Virtues , is unknown to mortal men . 2. I grant therefore , that our senses are no Competent Judges , Whether Christs true body be in the Sacrament ? no more than Whether an Angel be in this room ? There are bodies which are Invisible . 3. I grant that it is unknown to us , how far Christs Glorified body may extend ? Whether the same may be both in Heaven and on earth ? I am not able nor willing to confute them that say , Light is a Body ; nor them that say , It is a spirit : nor them that say , It is quid medium as a nexus of both : I mean Aether or Ignis , visible in its Light. And it is an incomprehensible wonder , if Lumen be a real radiant or Emanant part of the Sun , that it should indivisibly fill all the space thence to this earth , and how much further little do we know . So for the extensions of Christs body , let those that understand it dispute for me . 4. And I will grant that it is very probable that as in Heaven we shall have both a Soul and Body , so the Body is not like to have so near an Intuition and fruition of God as the soul . And whether the Glorified Body of Christ will not be there a medium of Gods Communication of Glory to our bodies , yea and his glorified soul to our souls , as the Sun is now to our eyes , I do not well understand : only I know that it is his prayer and will , that we be with him where he is to behold his Glory ; and that God and the Lamb will be the Light of the Heavenly Jerusalem . 5. And I am fully satisfied that it is not the signs only ; but the Real Body and Blood of Christ , which are given us in the Sacraments ( both Baptism and the Eucharist ) : But how given us ? Relatively , de jure ; as a man is Given to a Woman in Marriage ; or as a house and land are delivered to me , to be mine for my use ; though I touch them not . Thus 1. A right to Christ is given us : 2. And the fruits or benefits of his Crucified body and shed blood , are actually given us , that is , Pardon and the Spirit , merited for us thereby . 6. And among the Benefits given us , besides the Relative , there are some such as we call Real or Physical terminatively , and hyperphysical originally ut à Causa , which are the spirit of Holiness , or the Quickening , Illuminating and Sanctifying influence of the spirit of Christ upon our souls . And the Sacrament is appointed as a special means of communicating this . 7. I have met with some of late who say , that Indeed Christs Body and Blood in his humbled state , were not really eaten and drunk by the disciples , at his last supper : For the flesh profiteth not to such a use : But that his Glorified Body is spiritual , and is extensively communicated , and invisibly present under the form of Bread in the Sacrament ; and that as we have a Body , a sensitive life , and an Intellectual soul , so Christ is the life of all these respectively ; viz. His Body is made the spiritual nourishment of our Bodies ; his sensitive soul ( for which the word Blood is put , because it is in the blood in animals ) is the food or life of our sensitive souls ; and his Intellectual soul , of ours : And to these uses they assert the Real presence and oral participation of Christs Glorified body . To all which I say , 1. Whether or how far an invisible spiritual Body is present , sense is no judge ; nor can we know any further than Gods word telleth us . 2. That Christ in his Glorified soul and Body is our Intercessour with God , through whom we have all things , we must not doubt . 3. That Christ in his Humane and Divine Nature now in Heaven , is that Teacher who hath left us a certain word , and that King who hath left us a perfect Law of Life , whom we must obey , and a promise which we must trust , we must not question . 4. That the Holy Ghost who is our spiritual Life , is given us by , from and for Christ our Mediator , we must take for certain truth . But , though in all these respects , Faith apprehendeth and liveth upon Christ , yet that moreover his Glorified Body in substance , either feedeth or by contact purifieth our Bodies , and his sensitive soul , our sensitive souls , and his Intellectual soul , our Intellectual souls , as if in themselves , and not in their effects only they were thus communicated to us , I understand not , either by any just conception of the thing it self , or any proof of it from the word of God. But if any can help me to see it , I shall not refuse instruction . Nor can I see why the soul of Christ should be said to be given in the Wine only , and not in the Bread ; Nor why by this kind of Communication he may not as truly be said to be given us in other Ordinances as in the Eucharist : Nor know I what they mean by the Forms of bread and wine , under which they say that Christs Body and blood is given : But I am past doubt that Bread and Wine are still really in substance there . And whereas the same men say that It is Christs humbled flesh and blood as sacrificed on the Cross that is Commemorated , but his Glorified Body and soul only which are Communicated and Received , I must say , 1. That Christ plainly tells us of his Giving us his Sacrificed Body or flesh it self to eat , as he is the Lamb of God that taketh away the sins of the World : And he saith , Take , Eat , this is my Body which is broken for you , &c. so that the same body is Commemorated and Communicated : But how Communicated ? In the effects of his sacrifice : His Body was given a sacrifice to God for us , and the fruits of that sacrifice given to us . And thus he was given a sacrifice for the life of the world ; And thus we do receive him : By our bodily taking and eating the Bread , we profess that our souls take him to be our Saviour and Cause of our Life , both as Purchasing and Meriting it on Earth , and Interceding and Communicating it in and from Heaven . 2. And this Doctrine will not serve the Papists turn , who tell us that Bread and Wine are ceased , and that Christs very flesh and blood is there , into which all the substance of the bread and wine are turned ; and that his natural Body before his death , was in the same sort given under the forms of Bread and Wine as now ; and will not be beholden to this subterfuge . And indeed it is strange if the Sacrament at the first Institution should be One thing , and ever after another thing ; and that the Bread should ever since be turned into Christs body , upon the Priests Consecration , and not be turned into it , ( because not yet glorified ) upon his own words [ This is my Body . ] Therefore we must let this go , and speak of what they own and hold indeed . And as for any other Bodily presence , influence or communication of Christs Body or Soul , besides that which they call Transubstantiation , we have nothing to do with it in this Controversie . That the substance of the Bread and Wine is not turned into the substance of the flesh and blood of Christ , is proved . I. Because the Glorified Body of Christ is not formally and properly Flesh and Blood : Though it be the s●me Body which was Flesh and Blood. The Apostle Paul saith , 1 Cor. 15.50 , 51. [ Now this I say , brethren , that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God , nor doth corruption inherit incorruption ; Behold , I shew you a mysterie : We shall not all sleep , but we shall all be changed . ] It is not only Dr. Hammond , but other of the best expositors who shew that by Flesh and blood and corruption here is not meant sin , but flesh and blood formally considered ; which is ever corruptible : And the Papists commonly confess this . If therefore it be flesh and blood which the bread and wine are turned into , then either Christ hath two bodies , or two parts of one , which are utterly heterogeneal , one flesh and blood , and the other not ; one corruptible and the other incorruptible . II. And this feigneth Christ to be often Incarnate , even thousands and millions of times ; And to lay down that Incarnate body again as oft as it corrupteth , and to take up a new one as oft as the Priest please ; and yet all but one . Whereas the Church and Scripture have ever told us but of one Incarnation of Jesus Christ . III. And it is expresly contrary to his promise Joh. 6.51 . I am the living bread which came down from heaven : If any man eat of this bread , he shall live for ever : And the bread which I give is my flesh which I will give for the life of the world — v. 34. Who so eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternal life — He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood , dwelleth in me and I in him . As the living Father hath sent me , and I live by the Father , so he that Eateth me , even he shall live by me — He that eateth of this bread shall live for ever — . ] These are the express promises of Christ . But the Papists say that wicked men and unbelievers eat the flesh of Christ , who shall not live for ever , nor have eternal life , nor dwell in Christ , but are more miserable by their hypocrisie . I pass by abundance of other arguments , because commonly used , and these are as many as my ends require ; and I would make the Reader no more work than needs . CHAP. XI . The Conclusion of the first Book : The Causes of Popery . R. I Have now made plain to you , 1. What the Protestants Religion is , ( or at least my own , and all that I perswade you or any other to embrace . ) 2. And also that it is granted to be all true by the generality of the Papists ( as is explained and proved . ) 3. And I have told you , by an enumeration of some particulars , why I am not a Papist , and why I do disswade you from it . 4. And I have made good my first charge , in the point of Transubstantiation , if any thing in the world can be proved . The second I shall leave till another time , viz. To shew you how far their Religion ( as Popish ) is from Infallible Certainty ; and what horrid confusion is among them ; and how they have done much to promote Infidelity in the world , by building Religion upon some notorious untruths , and upon a multitude of utter uncertainties . Though I doubt not but among them there are many true Christians , who practically resolve their faith into the surer evidences of Divine Revelation , yet I shall clearly prove to you , that all those whose practical faith is no surer or better , than the notional opinions of their Divines will allow , have no certain faith or Religion at all : And what impudency is it to make men believe , that there is no certainty of Religion to be had , but in their way , who build their Religion upon such a multitude of uncertainties and certain falshoods , as will amaze you when I come to open them to you , viz. that ever so many Learned men , and persons of all ranks , can be induced so to jest in the matters of their salvation . And if I be not by death or other greater work prevented , I hope in order to make good all the rest of the Charges before mentioned , which are our Reasons against the Popish way of Religion . In the mean time tell me what you think of that which is already said . D. I know not how to confute what you have said : And yet when I hear them on the other side , me thinks their tale seems fair , and I cannot answer them neither : so that between you both , we that are unlearned are in a sad case , who must thus be tost up and down by the disputations of disagreeing Priests , so that we know not what a man may say is certain . R. To this I have several things to say ; 1. Ordination doth not make men wise , holy , humble and self-denying ; but sets such men apart for the sacred office , who seek it , and have tolerable gifts of utterance : And it is too ordinary for worldly minded men , to make a worldly trade of the Priesthood , meerly for ease , and wealth , and honour . In which case , do you not think that the Papists who have multitudes of rich benefices , prelacies , preferments , and Church-power , and worldly honour , are liker to be drawn by worldly interest , than such as I that am exceeding glad and thankful , if I might but preach for nothing ? 2. Do you lay your faith and salvation upon plausible discourses ? and will you be of that mans faith , whom you cannot confute ? Then you must be of every mans faith : or indeed of no mans . There are none of all these sects , so hardly confuted , as a Porphyry , a Julian or such like Infidels who dispute against Christ , and the truth of the Scriptures ? or such Sadducees as dispute against the Immortality of the soul . Alas , the tattle of Papists , Pelagians , Antinomians , Separatists , Quakers , and all such , supposing the truth of the souls Immortality and the Scriptures , is easily resisted and confuted , in comparison of their assaults who deny these our foundations . And will you turn Sadducee ▪ Atheist or Infidel because you cannot confute their Sophistry ? I tell you , if you knew how much harder it is , to deal with one of these than with a Papist or any other Sectary , you would shake the head , to hear one man dispute for an universal Monarch , and another dispute against a form of prayer , and another whether it be lawful to Communicate with dissenters , &c. while so few of them all can defend their foundations , even the souls Immortality and the Scriptures , nor confute a subtle Infidel or Sadducee . 3. What if we all agreed to say that there is no Bread in the Sacrament after Consecration ? Were it ever the truer for that ? Will you be deceived as oft as men can but agree to deceive you ? There is a far greater party Agreed against Jesus Christ ( even five parts of the World ) than that which is agreed for him : Will you therefore be against Christ too ? There are more Agreed for Mahomet ( a gross upstart deceiver ) than are agreed for Christ : And doth that make it certain that they are in the right ? 4. Will you deny all your senses , and the senses of all the World , as oft as you cannot answer him that denyeth them ? Upon these terms , what end will there be of any Controversie , or what evidence shall ever satisfie man ? Have Papists any surer and more satisfying evidence for you , than sense ? I pray you tell me ; Did you ever meet with any of them that doubt of another life , or of the Immortality of the soul ? D. Yes , many a one : I would we were all more certain than we are . R. And what is it that such men would have to put them out of doubt ? D. They say that our talk of Prophets and supernatural revelation are all uncertainties ; and if they could see , they would believe . Could they see such Miracles as they read of : Had they seen Lazarus raised , or Christ risen from the dead , &c. Had they seen Angels or Devils or Spirits appearing : Had they seen Heaven or Hell , they would believe . R. And are not you more obstinate than they , if you will not believe that there is any Bread and Wine , when you see , feel , smell , and taste it , and all men that have senses are of the same mind ? What is left to satisfie you , if you give so little credit to the common sense of all the world ? D. But I oft think that the faith of all the Church is much surer than my sense , or my private faith : At least it is safest to venture in the common road , and to speed as the Church speedeth , which Christ died for , and is his Spouse . R. 1. But do you think that the opinion of the Papal faction who are not the third part of the Universal Church , that is , the Christian world , is the faith of all the Church ? Why call you Opinion faith ? and a sect and faction , All the Church ? 2. Indeed if all the Church did set their senses against mine , I would rather believe them than my senses : For I should think , that I were in that point distracted , or my senses by some disease perverted , which I did not perceive : I mean if it were in a case where they had the affirmative : As if all England should witness that they saw it Light at Midnight , I would think my eyes had some impediment which I knew not of , if I saw none . But this is not your case ; The Papists themselves do not set all their senses against yours : much less the senses of all mankind : They do not say , that [ We and all men , except the Protestants , do see , and feel , and taste that There is no Bread and Wine . ] But contrarily , You have the senses of all the world , and the saith of two or three parts of the Christian world , against the Opinion of one Sect , which Schismatically call themselves All the Church . D. But suppose that they err in this one point , they may for all that be in the right in all the rest : Who is it that hath no error ? I must not for this one forsake them . R. 1. I will stand to their own judgements in this , Whether all their foundation and faith be not uncertain , if any one Article of their faith prove false ? They are all ( that ever I knew ) agreed of the affirmative : And will give you no thanks for such a defence . 2. And if we come to that work , I shall prove all the rest of their opinions before mentioned to be also false . D. What then if I find but one point false in the Protestants Religion ? Must I therefore forsake it all as false ? R. 1. Still remember to distinguish between our Objective and our Subjective faith : or if you understand not those words , between Gods Revelation and Mans Belief of it : or the Divine Rule and Matter of our faith , and our faith it self . And about our own Belief you must distinguish between a mans Profession of Belief , and the Reality of his belief . All true Protestants profess to take Gods word alone , or his Revelation in Nature and Scripture , for the whole Matter of their Divine Belief and Religion ▪ But who it is that sincerely believeth little do I know : nor how much of this word any singular person understandeth , and believeth , I can give you no account of . If personal faith were that which we dispute of , I would be accountable for no mans but mine own . In this sense , There are as many Faiths and Religions as men : For every man hath his Own Faith and Religion : And if you know that a man erreth in one point , it followeth not that he erreth in another . They that believed that the Resurrection was past , believed a falshood : and yet truly believed that Christ was the Messiah : They erred that thought it lawful to eat things offered to Idols ; and yet they erred not in believing in Christ . No two men in the world , its like , have the same degree of personal faith and knowledge ; as I oft said before . But if our professed object of faith , that is , Gods word , were false in one thing , we could not be sure that it were true in any thing . Yet here I told you before , 1. That a man may be much surer that one part of Scripture is Gods word , than another ; because some Copies are doubtful in the diverse Readings of some particular words or sentences ; and which of them that so differ is Gods word , we oft know not : But so much as we are sure is the word of God , we are sure is true : So if the Authority of some few books was once doubted of , ( as 2 Pet. Jam. Jud. Heb. &c. ) and yet be by any , it followeth not that they doubt of the truth of any , which they know to be the word of God. 2. Or if any do hold that the Penmen might be left to their natural fallibility in some by historical circumstances or words , it would not follow , that one Article of the Gospel or Christian faith is doubtful , which is plainly as the Kernel of it , delivered in all the Scripture , and also by infallible Universal Tradition , by it self , in the Sacrament , Creed , Lords Prayer and Decalogue . And our case also much differeth from the Papists in this : For We profess that our objective faith , ( Gods word ) is Infallible , and we are Infallible so far as we believe it : But we confess that we are lyable to misunderstand some parts of it ; and so far are fallible , as being imperfect : But the Papists say , that their Pope and Councils and Universal - Practicers are personally Infallible , so as not to be lyable to any misunderstanding of any Article of faith ( say some ) or Article of Catholick faith ( say others ) : And so they make their own Act of Believing to be Commensurate and equally certain with Gods word of faith ; and therefore they allow you to question them in all , if they err in one , as pretending to a gift of never erring in any . D. But is it not a great reason to incline us to them rather than to you , when They only pretend to Infallibility , and You confess that you are all fallible in your Belief ? R. This is to be the subject of our next Conference , and therefore not now to be anticipated ; only I shall tell you , that It is a meer noise of ambiguous words to deceive the heedless that cannot search out the meaning of them . 1. We not only Pretend , but Profess and prove that our Christian Religion is altogether Infallible . For which end I have written divers Treatises my self . 2. And we profess that all the mystical Church of Christ ( that is all sincere Christians ) do truly and Infallibly believe all that is Essential to Christianity , and as much of the Integrals as they can know . 3. And we profess that the Catholick Church-Visible ( that is , All professors of Christianity in the world ) do profess all these Essentials of Christianity , and are Infallible in this profession . But we hold withall , that there is no particular Church , or Bishop , no Synod or Council , that is so Infallible , but that , 1. They that hold to the Essentials may misunderstand and err about some Integrals : 2. And those persons have no Certainty that they shall not err by Heresie or Apostacy from the Essentials themselves : So that the Church is Infallible , because it is essentiated by believing an Infallible Word ; which who ever believeth not , ceaseth to be of the Church : not Gods Word infallible , because the Church or any number of men believe it , or say Its true : For Truth is before Knowledge and Faith : As Aristotle was a Philosopher , because he understood and taught the doctrine of real Philosophy ; and not that doctrine called Physicks or Philosophy , because that Aristotle knew or taught it . But , alas , What work shall I shew you when I come to open their bewildring uncertainties ? D. But to deal freely with you , methinks their way of measuring out the Necessaries in Faith and Religion according to mens various parts and opportunities , seemeth to me more satisfactory than yours , who fix upon certain points ( as the Baptismal Covenant ) as Essentials . For there is great diversity of mens Capacities . R. This cometh from confounding several Questions as if they were all one . 1. It is one Question , What is the Christian Religion ? 2. ☞ It is another Question , Whether the Christian Religion be absolutely necessary to the salvation of all those to whom it was never competently revealed ? 3. And it is another Question , Whether more than the Essentials of Christian Religion be not necessary to the salvation of many who have opportunity to know more ? Alas , what work doth Confusion make in the world ! To the first , It is evident that as Mahometanism is a thing which may be defined , so much more may Christianity : Who that writeth of the several Religions of the world , Ethnick , Jewish , Mahometan , and Christian , do not take them to be distinguishable and discernable ? Especially when Christ hath summed up Christianity into a Covenant , and given it us in express words , and affixed a flat promise of salvation to the true Covenanters , and the Church hath ever called our Baptism , our Christening ? Is Christianity Nothing ? If Something , Why may it not be defined , and differenced from all false Religions ? And if so , It hath its Essential Constitutive parts . All this is plain to Children that will see . 2. And then as to the second question , it concerneth not our Controversie at all . It is but Whether any Infidels may be saved ? Or any that are no Christians ? And if it could be proved , that any are saved that are no Christians , do you thereby prove that they are Christians , or members of the Christian Church ? or that Christianity is not a Religion which may be defined ? 3. And as to the third question , We are on all sides agreed in it , That they that have more than the naked Essentials of Christianity revealed to them aptly , are bound to believe more : Yea , it is hardly conceiveable that any one should know and believe the Essentials only , and no more : It is not Essential to the Christian Covenant or Christianity to know that the Name of Christs Mother was Mary ; or that Pontius Pilate was the man that condemned him ; And if an Ignorant man thought that his continuance in the Grave was four dayes , I do not think that this would damn his soul to Hell : ( Much less the not believing that Mary dyed a Virgin. ) And yet it is not like that any man should come to the Essentials of Christianity by any such way , as should acquaint him with no one of these , or any point besides the said Essentials . And yet it is certain for all this , that he that truly receiveth the Essentials , and is true to the Baptismal Covenant , shall be saved , whatsoever else he want : But it is as true , that he that Receiveth the Essentials , will ( from the same principles and obligations ) receive more , when it is aptly notified to him : And he that truly Covenanteth , will honestly keep the Covenant he maketh ; which bindeth him still to learn of Christ . But if any man be saved without the Essentials , he must be saved without Christianity . D. But you know that they distinguish of faith Explicite and Implicite : He may be Implicitely a Christian that believeth not the Essentials Explicitely ; as long as he believeth that which would infer them ; if they were made known to him to be indeed the Word of God. R. Thus do Words abuse and cheat the ignorant : Could you but read their own Dr. Holden before cited in his Analys . fid . you would find this distinction justly rendred by him shameful and ridiculous , according to their common sense and use of it ; and the truer sense delivered and vindicated . An Implicite faith or Knowledge we confess to be true , as it is opposed to 1. A distinct , or 2. To a well-expressed faith or Knowledge . For it is Implicite , ☞ 1. As to the Object , when a man knoweth the whole matter , but not by distinct parts : As a man may know a Cup of water , and not know how many drops or drams it is ; or he may know a sentence , and not know how many letters are in it . 2. Or it is Implicite as to the Act , when it is yet but a crude imperfect conception , and the thing is really known , but not the Logical notions , or Grammatical names , either the verba oris or mentis by which it should be expressed : So that the man cannot notifie his knowledge to another . These two are called Implicite ; the first signifieth Confused and General Knowledge , and the other Imperfect and undigested . But to call that Implicite faith or knowledge , which extendeth only to some Principles , and not to the Conclusions themselves , is 1. To Call No-knowledge and faith , by the name of knowledge and faith . 2. And by their application to confound the World and the Church , and to make all the Infidels and Heathens to be Christians , and every Fool a Philosopher . For , 1. All men of Reason know these two Principles ( who own a God ) , 1. That God is not a lyer , but all his Word is True. 2. That all the Truths in the world are God's , some way or other revealed by him . Therefore , if they knew that the Gospel were Gods word , they would believe it : or if they knew it to be one of those Truths that are in the world , they would take it to be of God. And thus all Infidels , and Turks , and Pagans may ( by such abuse ) be called Implicite Christians . But why then do the Papists burn the Protestants when if their Religion were true , we are all Implicitely Papists . For we believe , 1. That all Divine Revelations are True ; 2. And that all those are Infallible whom God hath promised to make Infallible ; 3. And that all those must be believed and obeyed whom God hath commanded us to believe and obey ; 4. And that we must not forsake that Church which God hath commanded us to adhere to ; 5. And that all our Lawful Pastors must be reverenced and submitted to ; 6. And all their lawful Precepts obeyed . 7. And all Gods Sacraments holily used ; 8. And all Traditions from the Apostles to the Churches received ; with many more such : Only we know not that the Pope is our Pastor , or that his Councils are the Church , or have a promise of Infallibility ; and so of the rest . And yet we must burn for it , if they can procure it . And yet he is a true believer Implicitely who believeth not the Essentials of Christianity . But the Design which is predominant here is too visible , when this Implicite faith cometh to be described : For it is not a Belief in God , or in Christ only that will serve the turn , but it must be a belief in the Church , and their Church , and their Pope too , or else it will not do . The Implicite faith is the explicite belief of these three Articles : 1. All Gods Word is true : 2. All that is Gods Word , which the Church tells us is Gods Word . 3. The Pope and his Council and Subjects are this Church . And yet this man must be supposed if he know no more , per impossibile , not to know that there is a Christ , or who he is as to his Person or Office , or what he hath done , or will do for us : And yet that he hath a Vicar and a Church . Or else they may know Christ and Christianity before they know that there is any Pope or Church , and then the Pope hath lost the Game . D. But if Popery be so senseless a thing as you make it , how come so great a number of persons of all ranks and qualities , Kings , Nobles , Learned men , and Religiously-disposed persons to embrace it ? Have not they souls to save or lose as well as you ? and do they not lay all their hopes of Heaven upon it ? and can such persons , and so many , be so mad and senseless ? R. Do we need thus to ramble round about , as if we would doubt of the thing till we know the Causes of it ? when we see and they all confess that they deny all our senses ? Will you not believe that there is a Sun , till you know what it is made of ? Or whether the Sea ebb and flow , till you know the Causes of it ? I pray you tell me , Q. 1. Do you think that the Mahometan's is not a very foolish Religion , and their foundation ( the pretended Mission of their Prophet ) without any shew of truth ; and his Alcoran ( if ever you read it ) a heap of Non-sense and Confusion ? D. Yes : I think it deserveth no better thoughts . R. And do you not know that ( though it arose not till about six hundred years after Christ ) much more of the world is Mahometan than Christian ? And are there not far Greater Emperours and Princes Mahometans than any that are Christians ? And have not all these souls to save or lose ? And do they not all venture their souls upon that Religion ? Why then is not your argument here as good for Mahometanism as for Popery ? D. Though the Emperours of Constantinople , the Great Mogul , the Persian , Tartarian Mahometans , &c. be all Great as to their vast Dominions , yet they are barbarous and unlearned in comparison of the Papists . R. 1. It is not because they have not as much wit as we : but because they think that our laborious wordy kind of learning , is an abuse of wit , and against true Policy , ludicrously or contentiously diverting mens minds and time from those employments which they think more manly and profitable to the Common-wealth ; Though no doubt but they do err more unmanly on that extream . But I further ask you , Q. 2. Do you not think that the Common Religion of the Heathens is very unworthy for any wise man to venture his soul upon ? If you have but read how it is described by the Antient Christians , Justin , Athenagoras , Origen , Arnobius , Minutius Foelix , Tertullian , Lactantius , Eusebius , Augustine , &c. you will say that they thought it a ridiculous unmanly Religion . D. I think no better of it than they did . R. And 1. Do you not know that almost all the world was then Heathen and Idolaters ? Alas , what was Judaea ( less than England ) to all the world ? Was not the Roman Empire , and Alexanders before that , far Greater than any Christian Prince hath now ? And to this day , are not four sixth parts of the whole world ( at least ) Heathens and Idolaters ? Brierwoods Calculation is , that if you divide the world into thirty parts , nineteen are Heathen , six Mahometans , and five only Christians of all sorts : besides the vast unknown parts of the world , which are not like to have any Religion of supernatural Revelation . 2. And do you not know , that Athens and Rome-Heathen were no Barbarians , but of most polite literature , and the Fathers of the Learning now in use ; and that when the Christians arose among them , they accounted them Barbarians ? And at this day , and long before us , the Chinenses have been addicted to Arts and Literature : And the Brachmanes and Bonzii are no Barbarians . And have not all these souls to save or lose ? And are all these so mad as to cast away their souls upon a senseless contemptible Religion ? If your reason be good , how much more will it hold for the Heathens , than the Papists ? Alas , what a handful are the Papists in comparison of the present Idolaters ! much more in comparison of the Antient Heathen world , before Christianity and Mahometanism dispossessed them of those parts which they now hold ! With what greater shew of advantage did the Heathens use the Arguments which the Papists do now put their trust in , and lay their Cause upon ! 1. Do they talk of Antiquity ? Why , it was the Novelty of Christianity in comparison of Heathenism through the world , which was it that hardned them to contemn and persecute it . 2. Do they talk of Vniversality and Consent ? Alas , how little a part of the world were the Christians at first , and are the Papists now , in comparison of the Heathens , then and now ? 3. Do they talk of Greatness , Empire , Acts and Learning ? How little are they as to the first , to the Heathen Empires ? And for Learning , they received it of them : And Aristotle still is the Schoolmens Oracle . And yet doubtless all these advantages are not sufficient to disprove the follies of Heanism , nor the badness of their Religion ? And yet will so much less serve to support the credit of senseless Popery ? D. But Christians may well expect greater helps from God , than Heathens or Mahometans : Therefore that so many Great and Learned and Religious Christians should go such a senseless way to another world , methinks seemeth strange . R. And are not Greeks , Armenians , Syrians , Abassines and Protestants , all Christians as well as they ? Their proud schismatical unchristening all but the subjects of the Pope , is a silly proof that we are no Christians , or that they are any better than others ; unless Malignity , uncharitableness and Schism be the true Excellency . 1. And are not other Christians More than the Papists ? Bishop Bramhall reckons the Papists to be about the fifth part of Christians : Suppose they be a third part ? They are still the Minor part . 2. And are not the Protestants as Learned as the Papists ? Why then will not your argument hold against them as well as for them ? Have not all these Christians souls to save or lose ? And do they not take that for the true Religion on which they trust their souls ? D. But though all these set together are more than the Church of Rome , yet no one Sect of them is so great ; and what matter is it how many various Sects are ? R. 1. The Greek Church is judged by wise men , te be yet bigger than the Roman , even in this its broken state : But there is no doubt but it was much bigger long after the first division , before the Turk did win the Eastern Empire . 2. But , if it were not so , your objection is frivolous . The Question is either of Different Churches , or of Different opinions and parties in the same Church . As to the first , There are but two opinions in the Christian world , that I know of , about the Constitution of the Catholick Church . The one is the opinion of the Papists only , ☞ that The Catholick Church is essentially constituted both of Christ , and the Pope as his Vicar and universal Monarch , with all his subjects ; as the pars Imperans and pars subdita . The other is the judgement of all other Christians , ( that I know or hear of , ) that The Catholick Church is essentially constituted only of Christ as the supream Head , or King , or pars Imperans , and his subjects as the pars subdita ; ☞ And that Patriarchs , Archbishops , Bishops , &c. are but Officiales & subditi primarii vel nobiles , constitutive parts indeed of their particular Churches ( some humane , and some Divine ) but no essential parts of the Catholick Church . ☞ This is the Grand difference between the Papists and all other Christians in the World , What the Catholick Church is ? Whether it have any Constitutive Vniversal Head or Monarch besides Christ ? Now seeing that Greeks , Abassines , Armenians and all agree with us in this against the Papists , it is evident to them that are willing to see that we are all of the same Catholick Church , though not of the same particular Churches , nor all for the same Official Ministers ; Because we are all for the same Constitutive Head , and his subjects as such , and agree in all the Essential parts , ☞ So that our differences among all these parties or particular Churches or Countries is but the difference of Opinions and parties in one and the same Church ; and not a difference of Catholick Churches ( which can be but one . ) And if that be the question , I undertake to prove that there is no one Sect of Christians known under Heaven , that hath so many different opinions within it self , ( if half so many , ) nor have written half so much against one another , as the Papists have done . 3. But I must not here anticipate my further work : when I come to that , I shall shew you how small and how disagreeing a part of the Christian world the Papists are . I have elsewhere recited the words of their Melchior Canus who boasteth that the Papacy yet standeth , though almost all the world , and besides Princes , almost all the Bishops and Churches have fought against it . Was it then the Universal Church ? And the words of Reynerius who saith , that the Churches of the Armenians and the others planted by the Apostles ( without the Empire he meaneth ) were not under the Pope of Rome . I shall , if I live to do that work , yet fullier shew you , that the Pope was but the chief Patriarch in one Empire , as the Archbishop of Canterbury is the chief Bishop in England ; and that his General Councils were but General Assemblies of the Empire ( inconsiderable occasional accidentals excepted ) , even as our Convocations , or the Scots General Assemblies were , though in a far larger Empire . But all this I have done already in other writings , beyond all reasonable contradiction . D. Tell me then , how it cometh to pass that so many Princes , Nobles , Learned men , and Religious can be so marvellously deluded ? R. Alas poor man ; You talk as if you knew not your self nor mankind ! how bad a thing corrupt unsanctified nature is ! Why do you not also ask , How cometh it to pass , that the far greatest part of the World ( even five parts of six ) are Heathens and Mahometanes ! and that most of the World are wilful self-destroyers ; many ruining their very bodies , Eating , and Drinking , and Whoreing , and Idling them into Gowt , Stone , Dropsies and an hundred Maladies : but far more ruining their souls . Why do you not also ask , How reasonable Creatures ( of all Professions ) are so worse than mad , as to sell their souls and everlasting hopes , for a dream and shadow , or for dirt and dung ; even for a few Cups or Morsels , or merry hours , which they know are like the mirth of drunkenness , which is quickly gone , and ends in sickness and in shame ! For a great Name , and a large attendance in their way to the grave ! For the thoughts and breath of mortal man ! And for that which all men first or last , are forced to call meer Vanity and Vexation ! Were not men mad in sin , had they never heard a Preacher , the sight of a dead Carkass and a grave would do more to make them sober and considerate , than is done with most . When most of the World will obstinately follow the Devil their enemy , by known sin to everlasting misery , against all the commands , exhortations , promises , threatnings , mercies and warnings of God himself , and all the perswasions of their truest friends , What wonder if the same men can be Papists or any thing ? But I will tell you some of the particular Causes . I. Abroad in other Countries , there are all these Reasons easily discernible . 1. Who knoweth not how great an advantage Education hath , to form mens judgements to almost any thing , how bad soever ? That which children receive , if it be not disagreeable to their sensible interest , how commonly and tenaciously do they follow ? Whence is it that the whole Empires and Kingdoms of Pagans are all of one mind ; and the Kingdoms of Mahometans of another ? One Kingdom almost all Greek Christians and another Papists , and another Lutherans , and another Reformists , & c ? Hath not education a great hand in this ? 2. And the custome of the Countrey , and the company which they converse with , is of no small power with mens minds . Especially when men live where almost all are of a mind , they think that concord is a sign of truth , and modesty forbiddeth them to be wiser than all the Countrey . 3. And when they know few or none of another mind , how should they know what they are ? And when they hear an hundred lies against them , and never hear them speak for themselves , they think that the Law of modesty , humanity and converse , oblige them to believe , that so Many , so Great , and so Learned and Religious persons will not impudently lie : When as perhaps the lye it self is a Tradition which the lyars received on the same terms in modest credulity from their teachers or fathers . 4. And specially , the Names of Order , Government , Vnity , and Concord , deceive many millions of souls : For Order and Vnity are justly amiable to nature it self . And the purblind know not an Image from a Man. 5. Especially when civil Wars , or Church discords have distracted the World , and made men aweary of all that 's present , and suspicious of all things , which seemed to have a hand in their disappointments ; this maketh men hearken to any thing which pretendeth to certain settlement , Order and peace . Even as a man that by turning round is wheelsick , will lay hold on the next post or fixed thing , to keep him from falling down . 6. And when their Teachers make them believe , that all Christians besides them do live like mad-men , in Sects and Schismes , distractedly tearing out one anothers throats , What wonder if this make men willing of any way which pretends to peace , and glad to run into any Cottage which will keep them from such a storm ? 7. But the great cause is , 1. The Blindness of mens minds , 2. The wickedness of all unrenewed hearts , and 3. The power of carnal Interest . 1. Few men are of great natural parts for wit , and fewer improve them , by any serious study of things spiritual . 2. Almost all men study with the byas of prejudice and partiality , and as men that would have one side to be right , because it is for their worldly ends . 3. Sin Ruleth in most souls , and the enmity against God and his Laws prevaileth in carnal minds , Rom. 8.6 , 7 , 8. And enmity is an ill student and seeker of truth ; and friendship is an incompetent judge of sin . 4. None but a few self-denying persons can bear to be reproached as Hereticks and Schismaticks by all about them . 5. Especially the countenance or discountenance of Great ones , doth more with such than Heaven and Hell. 6. And that 's not all , But he that will not be a Papist , in most of their Countreys must be undone , and in many must be rackt , tormented and burnt : And it is but few that have learnt to go to so high a price for truth , and to be Religious at such a rate . 8. Therefore it is a thing utterly unknown among them , who is heartily a Papist , and who not . For when men must take on them to be Papists or be undone , or burnt , millions will seem to be such that are not . For , 9. Most of the World have no Religion in truth and power , to overcome the world and flesh : and therefore will seem to be of that Religion , which hath the upper hand , and serveth their turns . 10. Yea , the very Belief of the Immortality of the soul , the Resurrection and the life to come , is feeble , if not unsound and lifeless , in the most of men : And so is the Belief of the Christian faith : And a man that doubteth whether there be another life or not , will make as sure as he can of the pleasures of this present life . And I fear that this is the case of no small number of Papists ; to think , [ I know not whether there be any other life of retribution : I rather think that there is none : But lest it should prove true , I will be of some Religion : And where can I be with more ease and safety , than in that which my Rulers and Teachers and the whole Countrey say is right ? If it prove otherwise , I hope God will excuse me , while I obey my Governours , and do as the most do . ] He that much doubteth of the truth of Christianity it self , may easily fall in with any Sect which seemeth for his interest . I fear Melancthon too truly said , that Italians maintain that Christ is in the Sacrament , when they do not believe that he is in Heaven . 11. And many Nicodemites think , that a man needs not expose himself to danger for his faith , but may keep it to himself , and do as his neighbours do : especially where they have no other society to joyn with , they think it better to joyn with the Popish Churches than none . 12. And I have reason to think that it is but few among the multitude , that understand indeed what the Papists hold , while they go with them in the general Name and profession : And in particular about Transubstantiation : When even the subtle Schoolmen are not agreed of its proper sense ; ( as Durandus his instance for one doth prove . ) I do not think that one of an hundred that receiveth their Eucharist , doth in his heart believe , that It is not Bread : But some think that their Church it self meaneth otherwise : And some say , [ It is not for such as I to contradict them and dispute ; but I will leave every one to think as he will ; and so will I. ] 13. And as for Princes and Lords abroad , Those that have once escaped Popery will take heed how they entertain it again , unless lust and folly have sold them for a prey : But they that live where their subjects are Papists , dare not venture to shake so great a fabrick , lest they overthrow themselves : For 1. People are tumultuous ; 2. The Popish Clergie are rich and powerful and exceeding numerous . 3. Religion is a thing that men are tender and tenacious of , who are seriously of any . 4. The Popish doctrine of deposing and killing excommunicate Kings , maketh many Princes flatter the Priests , for fear of losing ●heir lives . They think that it is better make some advantage of the Popes friendship , than to have such an enemy , whose Knives and poison have easie access , and whose armies we must watch against in peace , as in a continued War , and we know not when they are in our own houses or near us , nor where nor when we are in safety . 14. And , alas , the Great ones of the World have the greatest Temptations , and not the weakest lusts and passions , and have more of worldly and carnal Interest to carry them away ! 15. And the Papists Religion is notably suited to their lusts and carnal ends : All which , and much more , may tell you that it no wonder , that so many forreign Princes , and States and Nobles can cleave to so sensless a way as Popery . D. II. But how come so many among us in England to turn Papists of late years , where Popery is discountenanced by the King , Parliament and Laws ? R. Many of the same Causes do this , which I need not reherse . And 1. Too many both Noble and ignoble are prepared by their Lusts , and by a vicious life . There are many things in Popery which greatly accommodate a carnal mind and a debauched guilty Conscience , which the Christian Protestant Religion affordeth not . And a profligate flagitious person , is likeliest to be forsaken of God , and to be given up to believe a lye , seeing they received not the truth in the love of it , that they might be saved , 2 Thess . 2.10 , 11 , 12. I fear nothing so much , as lest men turn Heart-Infidels and Tongue-Papists ( as the suitablest Reserve , lest Christian Religion and the life to come , should prove a truth ) . And indeed great sins Cry for great Vengeance : And what Greater than for Mind , Will and Life to be forsaken of God ? 2. And alas , except Lawyers , Physicions and others bred up to Studies and Employments , how few are there of Nobility or Gentry that are hard studying men ! And the great Mysteries of Religion will not be well learned and defended , by a life of eating , drinking , playing , jeasting , gaming , hawking , hunting , visitings of empty company , lustfulness , worldliness , or vain-glorious pomp . No men grow wise or Christians indeed by such a course . 3. And indeed the Popish Priests are more industrious than too many of our Incumbent Ministers ; for which they are Commendable in their way : The Erroneous are oft more zealous than the Orthodox . And they that apprehend themselves between fear and hope , are usually more industrious than they that by possession are secure : which maketh the lower side so oft get up , and the upper side go down . And I would I might not say , that our Ministers are too few of them able to deal with a trained Sophister : Some are unable in this particular cause , because they take it as a baffled pack of notorious Errors , and thought that few sober persons were in danger of it : And so they have ( honestly ) bent their studies and labours to the winning of sensual persons from their sins ; and are unfurnished in the Popish Controversies ; knowing that they can refer them to multitudes of Books , which are unanswerable . But alas , too many also are unable through meer ignorance , lowness of parts , and gross insufficiency or negligence , not only in this , but other parts of their Ministerial work . 4. And we have incurred no small dammage and danger , by ignorant Over-doing against the Papists : Partly with the self-wise Sectaries , calling many laudable or blameless things , by the Name of Popery , Antichristianity and Idolatry , because they are cross to their pre-judging partial conceits : And partly by some unsound doctrines , which some defend as parts of the Protestant Religion : And partly by magnifying verbal differences , and making a noise about them as if they were real , and such as salvation lyeth on : For want of skill to state a controversie , and discern a verbal difference from a real . And when a Papist can but shew their Novices one such palpable error in the Writings of a Protestant ; What sad work will he make with it ? and still harp upon that string , and perswade the people that the rest of our differences are such like . And thus many Overdoing well-meaning ignorant men both Ministers and people , have unwittingly done as much to harden Papists , and increase their numbers , almost as if Satan had hired them as Spies , to betray the Churches and Cause of Christ : Yea , and if one better studied in these points , shall go a sounder and more successful way to work , and take these weapons out of the Papists hands , which some ignorant Protestants have given them , the same mens blind zeal will rage against them , ( as some did against Chillingworth , Anthony Wotton , and divers others our greatest Champions ) as if it were not themselves but these , that were befriending Popery . So that they neither can confute them soundly themselves , nor will suffer others , but zealous Protestants assault Christs ablest servants at their backs , while their faces are towards the adversaries whom they oppose . 5. But nothing among us ( except Ignorance and wickedness ) increaseth them more , than the scandal of our numerous , and some of them abominable Sects . When the people see many zealous professors turn Quakers , or Ranters , or Seekers , or Antinomians , or Socinians , or Familists ; and shall see the more tolerable parties ( Episcopal , Presbyterian , Independant , Erastian , Separatists , and Anabaptists ) condemning , backbiting , reproaching and making odious ( if not persecuteing ) one another , and shunning ( many of them ) the Communion of one another , as they do the Papists . This makes them think , that they must seek some surer soberer way than any of us have yet found : and the Papists set in and tell them , [ All these are branches broken off from the true Vine and withered ; This it is to depart from the Catholick Church ; when they are once gone thence , there is no stop or consistence , till they crumble all to dust and atomes : You must become Roman Catholicks , or go mad : You see to what confusion all others tend : If you once leave our Church , you will never know where to settle ▪ Which Sect will you be of ? If an Independant , why not an Anabaptist ? If an Anabaptist , why not an Antinomian ? How will you ever know which one of all these is in the right ] ? All this is easily answered by a man of understanding ; But to the ignorant Vulgar , it seemeth unanswerable . And alas , how many have given them this scandal ? Wo be to some by whom offence cometh . 6. But the Contentions of our Clergie advantage them more than the divisions of the people : when we are of many interests , and many parties , and proceed to make each other contemptible and odious : especially when we come to hinder each other from the work of our Ministry . A house and Kingdom divided cannot stand : Christ tells us that the Devil himself is not so foolish , as to divide his Kingdom . All our consent and best endeavour is too little to save mens souls from sin and error : And when one part is cast by , and each part by contention hindereth the other : the Papists have the far easier work . When one part are not to come within five miles of Cities or Corporations , where Papists are , and those that may come near them are too few , and many too indisposed , or negligent in resisting them ; so that we are all overdone by their Priests in constant diligence , ( especially with the Greater rank of men , with whom one part of our Ministers , have almost as little inclination as opportunity to converse , ) no wonder if the Roman work go on . 7. And , alas , how great advantage have they made of our late calamitous Civil Wars , and manifold scandalous Rebellions ? Though indeed it was the terrour of their murdering about two hundred thousand in Ireland ( of which see Bishop Jones , Sir John Temple , and the Earl of Orery against Welsh , ) which frightened those that I was acquainted with , out of their peace , and almost out of their wits here in England , yet dead men are not heard on Earth , and their service for the King in England serveth not only for a Cloke for that , but for an advantage against many that stand in their way . In all Civil Wars , if the Clergy be drawn in to own several Causes ( especially if they own an ill Cause ) who ever prevaileth , Religion suffereth by it ; while one part of them are laid by , or hindered by the other . 8. And though God hath greatly obliged this Nation to thankfulness , by preserving our Superiours so much from Popery as he hath done , yet some of their names are injuriously abused , to entice men to the Popish way , as if it had so much countenance and patronage , that Interest might invite them to it . 9. And the World is lyable to changes , and weary of holding long in one way : The name of Antiquity especially in Religion is venerable with all ; but yet it is Novelty that pleaseth in the Matter . And when Popery is to us a New way honoured with the name of The old Religion , it is a taking bait . 10. But the grand cause of all , is , the common peoples Ignorance , as being ungrounded in their own Religion ; and their badness , who measure all by carnal Interests , and all our great and manifold sins , by which we have forfeited Gods presence and his grace , and provoked him to leave us to the shame and ruine of our own lusts and delusions to undoe our selves . Great sins bring great plagues . And most men are of their Religion who have the greatest interest in their estimation and affections , or that have greatest advantage on them by constant nearness , familiarity , kindred , kindness or power to do them good or hurt in the World. And therefore to your question Why so many of late turn Papists , I shall but now concludingly answer you , as I begun with you , concerning the Cause of your own doubts ; They that have long lived under the light of the holy Gospel , and among the mercies which have blest this Land , and yet have been sincerely no true Christians , but loved their fleshly lusts and pleasures , and their wealth and worldly honour , more than God , or holiness , or Heaven , it is no wonder that they easily change their party , and can be , in siding , of any Religion who are in sincerity of none ; and if God forsake their understandings , and give them up to senseless and unreasonable opinions , who would not live according to the knowledge which they had , nor obey the truth which was clearly opened to them . And such hypocrites and perfidious rebels against Christ , all Protestants do confess themselves to have been , who turn Papists , and know what they do : Because they profess to go from a state of damnation , into a Church out of which there is no salvation ; if the Popes judgement be as powerful in Heaven , as it is at Rome . D. But is there no hope of ending these lamentable differences , and removing the scandal of Infidels hereby ? or at least of living together like Neighbours without seeking each others blood or ruine ? R. 1. Yes ; when God shall by his Providence take down the worldly Greatness and Advantages of the Papacy , and level the King of Rome with the true Pastors of his Church , and turn the usurping Monarch of all the World into a true Bishop ; that so worldly Power , honour and wealth , may not be stronger arguments with their party than Heaven and Hell , and Gods commands . Till then their Great twisted Interest is like to rule them , and keep them in the errours into which it hath involved them . Especially while their pretended Infallibility ( against all sense and reason ) is their strength , which maketh them uncurable in any errour which they once embrace . 2. But yet I did in the second Part of my Key for Catholicks , long ago shew the terms on which we may live like neighbours , if not like Christians , if their principles would allow their minds , to be but peaceable , and give dissenters leave to live . And I still profess that might we but secure our selves and our posterity , I am none of those that would have the least injury , much less cruelty exercised upon any man for being a Papist : If they will live peaceably with me , or but give me leave , I will live peaceably with them . And I doubt not but as there are some among them truly fearing God ( though corrupt with the errours of their education ) so there are more that are of kind and civil natures , which their ill opinions cannot make fierce and sanguinary nor overcome . And none of them , I think , shall be more loving , kind and peaceable to me , than I will be to him . And I confess I have a greater respect and honour for those whose Ancestors have transmitted Popery to them under the name of the True Catholick faith , and who live according to what they know ( though perhaps in blind zeal they hate me and such others for the Interest of their way , ) than I have for those that seemed once Protestants , and by filthy debauched lives have made it seem needful or convenient for them to turn Papists , that they may have a seeming Religion and Priests pardons to quiet or deceive their Consciences ; or than I have for those Papists who live in drunkenness , lust and common lying and prophane swearing , while yet they seem to be Religious and regardful of God and their souls ; or than I have for those Priests who befriend such mens wickedness for the increase and interest of their Church . Yea , I truly profess that if I know a truly Godly conscionable charitable Papist , I must , I will love and honour him far more than an ungodly , unconscionable , uncharitable Protestant . And as far as I can discern , both Ministers and private Christians ( but especially Ministers ) whom I most converse with , are of the same mind . D. But is there no way possible to bring them fairly off , in this gross business of Transubstantiation , without putting them upon the disclaiming of the Popes and General Councils Infallibility ? R. I am not bound to devise accommodations to strengthen them in their other errours , if I could . But yet I would cure any errour in any , though they intend their own cure to an evil end . I cannot be perswaded but their understanding men are sorry at the heart that the Laterane Council hath drawn them into such a snare , by making Transubstantiation an Article of their faith ; and that they are very angry at them , and wish that it had never been done : but being done they must take on them to believe it , lest they pull down with their foundation all their fabrick . I doubt not but they are troubled and ashamed to read the Schoolmens disputes of Transubstantiation , exposing Christianity to the Infidels scorn , which this Council hath most occasioned . I know not how to bring them off , unless they will hearken to what Dr. Taylor in his Disswasive from Popery , and Dr. Heylin , and Dr. Pierson and Dr. Gunning in the Dispute , have said against the Validity of that Laterane Council ( could they but spare the Canon for deposing Temporal Lords , and dispossessing them of their Dominions , and absolving all their Papists subjects from their Oaths of Allegiance and exterminating the rest ; Yea it would be more serviceable to them at last with Princes , to retract that also , than to keep it . ) Their best way is to take the help of these pretences , and condemn the contrary Reasons of Mr. Terret and his fellow Disputant against the foresaid Doctors , and expunge that Council out of Binnius , Surius and the rest who number it with the approved Councils ; and because Matth. Paris and others say that some at the Council thought the Canons burdensom , and they were brought in by the Pope , and hastily read , &c. therefore say , that They were not passed at least Conciliariter , which you know is a word that serveth their turn against another Council which they dislike . D. But what shall they do with following Councils , especially that at Trent , which say the same ? R. The best shifts that I know are , 1. To do as they do about the condemning of Pope Honoririus as a Heretick . They say that a General Council and Pope too may err in a matter of fact ; and so they did in judging of Honorius his meaning : So they may say , that the Council of Trent did decree this as an Article of faith , only because they thought that the Church so held it : which was because they thought that the General approved Council of Laterane had so decreed it ▪ But now finding that it was not so decreed there , the error in matter of fact ceasing , which was the supposition , the doctrinal error proveth to be no Article of faith , or Conciliariter decretum . 2. Or if this will not do , they are best yet stretch the words of Rome and Trent , to a more tolerable signification , and say , That it is not the ceasing of the substance of Bread and Wine which is meant ; but the changing it into a Relative new form : And so , as the Whole substance of a man is changed from being a meer Common man , into a King , a Bishop , a Doctor , without any cessation of his Humanity ; but only quia forma ultima denominat , he is not any more to be called meerly A Man , but A King , A Bishop , &c. Or , as the whole substance of a piece of Gold is changed into Currant Coin by the Kings Stamp , &c. So the whole substance of Bread is turned into the ( Representative ) Body of Christ , and the whole substance of Wine into his ( Representative ) blood ; which change they call Transubstantiation . But why should I give counsel to men that will not thank me for it , and that obstinately refuse much better ? D. But why speak you nothing of their denying the people the Cup ? I thought you would principally have fastned on that . R. Because it is no part of this present Controversie , which I was first to handle , though it concern the same Sacrament : But it is such an instance , as serveth to tell those of the world that will understand , what horrid unreasonable , audacious arrogance and Vsurpation and Treason against God and the true Head of the Church , this pretended Monarch of the world , and his pretended Catholick Church ( the Popish Sect ) are guilty of : considering , 1. That it is as essential a part of the Sacracrament as the Bread is : For Christ hath made no difference . 2. It hath the same Institution and express Command : He that said , [ Take , Eat ] said also [ Drink ye all of this : ] He hath said , [ Do this in remembrance of me ] of One as well as of the Other . 3. Therefore to take away an Essential part , is to take away the Sacrament , and make it another thing . As it is not a humane body that hath not both Head and Heart : So here . 4. Therefore by the same authority they might have continued the Cup , and taken away the Bread ; or have taken away both . 5. And on the same reason they might have taken away Baptism , and all Christs positive Institutions . And for ought I know the Ministry it self as instituted . 6. But then Gersons question , de auferabilitate Papae would be next to be debated : For were he of Christs own Institution ( as he is not ) it is no more than the Cup in the Lords Supper . Could he but prove an Institution of his Papacy as evidently , who would not be his Subject ? If you say , But who should take him down , if it might be done ? I answer , Kings in their own Kingdoms , and his own General Councils . The Kings of France , Spain , &c. may easily prove , that they have more power to cast out the Pope , than he hath to cast out half Christs Sacrament : And they may better forbid their own Subjects to obey a forreign Usurper , than he can forbid all the world to obey Christ . 7. And for all this , the wit of man can hardly devise What Reason they have to do it ? What point of their Religion ? What Interest of their own did engage them to it ? Unless it be their Interest to shew that they are Above Christ and the Scripture , I do not yet discern their reason . 8. And yet they have , with Resolution and obstinacy , persisted herein divers hundreds of years , and denyed the requests of Emperours , Nobles , and great part of several Kingdoms in this point . This and the leaving out the second Commandment , seem to be of purpose to shew that they are above the Maker of the Ten Commandments and of the Gospel . How long Lord shall Tyranny oppress the Nations of the Earth , and the Honour and Domination and Wills of Rebels , prevail to tread down Truth and Godliness , and keep the notice of thy salvation from the sinful miserable world ; whilest yet we daily pray by thy Command , that Thy Name may be Hallowed , Thy Kingdome come , and Thy Will be done , on Earth as it is done in Heaven ? Whether the Pope be the Antichrist meant in the Scripture ( by that name ) or not , you see that my passing it by doth shew my cautelousness in resolving ( as Zanchy and others before me have done ) , because I am confessedly so far unstudyed or ignorant of the sense of the Revelations and some other Scripture Prophecies , as that I must leave such cases to such as Bishop Downame and others that have deeper insight into them : Every man should be best at that which he hath most studyed . But I must needs say , that though I take it to be indispensible duty , to keep up all due charity to all professed Christians ; such instances as these which I have here opened do utterly disable me from confuting that man , who shall assert that this pretended Vicar of Christ , and King or Monarch of the world , ( and so King of Kings , and Lord of Lords ) is an abominable Usurper , and insolent Traytor , against God , and the true King and Head of the Universal Church . How long will Princes and Prelates , Learned and Unlearned be deluded by him , or fear Power ? And when shall he be restrained from hindering Christs Gospel , and the Peace and Concord of the Christian world ? FINIS . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A26931-e4170 Johns . Nov. Repr . p. 426. Protestants formally such , have not enough to be brought to the unfeigned Love of God above all things , and special Love to his servants , and unfeigned willingness to obey him : I deny you have any certain knowledge or feeling that you love God or his servants , or willingness to obey , &c. Knot against Chillingworth Ch. 2. p. 122. [ In no one doctrine Protestants would seem more unanimously to agree , than in this , That all things necessary to salvation are contained evidently in Scripture — which they hold as the only foundation of the whole structure of their Faith and Religion . ] Note this Confession . See Dr. Holden Analys . fidei Li. 1. c. 3. Lett. 1. He that would know what stress we lay on Tradition as the Medium may see it fully in my Reasons of Christ . Relig. And Dr. Holden is more for us than for the Papists , Cap. 3. Q. Was it from the Church that the first Church received it ? Or was it not the same Divine Religion which the first Church ( whether Council or Practicers ) received without the Tradition of Council or Practicers ? If so , this cannot be essential to Religion . If the Apostles words were to be believed , their proved Writings are to be believed . And their Writings were proved theirs before a General Council or Universal Practice witnessed it : Even by each Church and person that received any Epistle from any one of them . So that if the Doctors will but differ in their Expositions , the Scripture is no more the sure Word of God , or to be believed by Catholick faith . Of the Pope without a General Council . Mark then , that it may be de fide divina , though not of Catholick necessity without the proposal of Council or universal practice . Johns . Nov. Rep. p. 19. of the explication of Terms : Know you not , that Divines are divided , what are the points necessary to be believed explicitely necessitate medii : Some , and those the more antient hold , that the explicite belief of God , of the whole Trinity , of Christ , his Passion , Resurrection , &c. are necessary necessitate medii : Others among the recentiors , that no more than the belief of the Deity , and that he is the rewarder of our works , is absesolutely necessary with that necessary , to be explicitely believed . He doth better interpret the distinction of Explicite and Implicite on another occasion , in another sense . Holden . l. 1. c. 9. p. 169. Queret an teneatur quispiam a● internum Divinae fidei actum , quem nec semper fortasse in eius potestate situm novimus ? Quamdiu sane arbitretur quispiam hujusmodi fidei actum lumini naturali & rationi oppositum & contrarium esse , nequaquam poterit ad illum eliciendum astringi . Notes for div A26931-e26910 Aquin. p. 3. q. 75. a. 5. ad 3. Fides non est contra sensum , sed est d● eo ad quod sensus non attingit . But doth not sense say , Here is Bread and Wine ? Vid. Aquin. 3. q. 82. a. 7. c. Vid. Aquin. 3. q. 69. a. 9. Vid. Aquin. 3. q. 82. a. 8. 2 Cor. 12.12 . Rom. 15.19 . Act. 14.3 . & 15.12 . Matth. 21.15 . So they do by forbidding to eat Flesh in Lent : And yet say they eat Christs flesh in Lent : When Irenaeus cited by Occumenius Com. in 1 Pe● . c. 3. bringeth in Blandina proving to the Heathens that Christians did not eat flesh and drink blood in the Eucharist , because that they use even to abstain for exercise sake , from Lawful flesh . See my More Reasons for the Christian Religion , and the Lord Herbert de Veritate . Apply this to Mr. Johnsons Rejoynder on this Point , and you will see his Vanity .