Father Cotton a Iesuite, the Kings confessour, his two and thirtie demands, to the ministers of France with the answeres added at the end of euerie demand. Also threescore and foure demands proposed to Father Cotton, by way of counter-change. By Peter Moulin, minister of the word of God in the church of Paris. Printed according to the French copie, printed in Paris. Also a new late chalenge, by a learned diuine, to all Papists, in 24. other Popish articles. Trente-deux demandes proposées par le P. Cotton. English Du Moulin, Pierre, 1568-1658. 1614 Approx. 123 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 33 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2008-09 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A19428 STC 5857 ESTC S116356 99851573 99851573 16853 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A19428) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 16853) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1475-1640 ; 1658:10) Father Cotton a Iesuite, the Kings confessour, his two and thirtie demands, to the ministers of France with the answeres added at the end of euerie demand. Also threescore and foure demands proposed to Father Cotton, by way of counter-change. By Peter Moulin, minister of the word of God in the church of Paris. Printed according to the French copie, printed in Paris. Also a new late chalenge, by a learned diuine, to all Papists, in 24. other Popish articles. Trente-deux demandes proposées par le P. Cotton. English Du Moulin, Pierre, 1568-1658. Coton, Pierre, 1564-1626. Barnes, John, fl. 1600-1621. [6], 58 p. Printed [by Thomas Snodham] for Iohn Barnes, and are to be sould at his shop, ouer against S. Sepulchers Church, without New-gate, London : 1614. Translator's dedication signed: I.B., i.e. John Barnes?. A translation of: Trente-deux demandes proposées par le P. Cotton. Includes a translation of Coton's demands. The second English edition, according to STC. Printer's name from STC. Reproduction of the original in the British Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Coton, Pierre, 1564-1626. Catholic Church -- Controversial literature -- Early works to 1800. 2006-03 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2006-06 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2007-06 Ali Jakobson Sampled and proofread 2007-06 Ali Jakobson Text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion FATHER COTTON A IESVITE , THE KINGS CONFESSOVR , His two and thirtie Demands , to the MINISTERS of France , with the Answeres added at the end of euerie DEMAND . Also threescore and foure Demands proposed to Father COTTON , by way of Counter-change . By PETER MOVLIN , Minister of the word of God in the Church of Paris . Printed according to the French Copie , printed in PARIS . Also a new late Chalenge , by a learned Diuine , to all Papists , in 24. other Popish ARTICLES . MATTH . 22. VERS . 23. & 29. The Saduces came to Iesus , and asked him , &c. But Iesus answered and said vnto them ; yee erre , not knowing the Scriptures . LONDON : Printed for Iohn Barnes , and are to be sould at his shop , ouer against S. Sepulchers Church , without New-gate . 1614. TO THE RIGHT HONOVRABLE , MY VERIE GOOD LORD , SIR THOMAS EDMVNDS , Knight , Embassadour for his Maiestie , Resident with the French KING . IT was the saying of wise Salomon , long since : that there is no end of making Bookes , and much reading is a wearinesse of the flesh , Eccles . 12.12 . which was neuer more verified , then in these dayes of vanitie , when vnlearned as well as learned , will be writing , whereby the Presse is euen oppressed with multiplicitie of such Treatises , ( as being ballanced by the weights of Gods Sanctuarie ) will be found more light then vanitie it selfe . but for such Treatises as this , which afford direction to the Church & Spouse of God , trauailing to heauenly Ierusalem , through the Wildernesse of this world , nothing more necessary ; being fit to resolue her of doubts in matters of Controuersie , when she standeth in biuio , doubtfull which way to take this her iourney , and therefore meeting with this skilfull Guide , in that Nation where your Honor hath long had very Honourable imployment from the State of this Land , where this Stranger is now ariued : I haue attired him in our English habite , and doe present him vnto your Honour , whose fauourable protection hee seemeth silently to craue , and solemnly promiseth his best directions to Gods Church , by this and such like Treatises , which hee hath in his Natiue Country divulged , so deuoting my best endeuours in this kinde , to my Country , and humbly desiring to shelter my selfe vnder your Honourable fauour : I humbly rest at your Honours commaund . I. B. PETER MOVLIN his Aduertisement to the READER . OVR Lord Iesus being tempted by the Scribes and Pharisees with captious questions , satisfied them by the holy Scriptures . We in the like cause and kinde , are questioned , and incombred . But wee easilie come out , and free our selues by the same meanes . For , we cut off with the sword of the Word these knots of intricate Questions , wreathed of purpose to entangle mens mindes . A farre off , they seeme Gardian knots , but at hand no better then Spiders webs , not able to endure the least winde or breath of Truth . They catch nothing but Flies , but light and giddy spirits , carryed away with euery first blast of wordly hopes . Master Cotton , a man full of questions , hath proposed them in diuers fashions to sundry sorts of spirits . We haue had our part : For hee hauing often-times shewed his dexteritie in his subtilly-conceiued , and finely-filed questions , they to whom he hath proposed them , haue brought them vnto me , and desired my answere vnto them . I haue alwaies satisfied them : but he suppressing my Answeres , hath still gone on to make new Questions , pleasing himselfe onely in the Office of an Inquisitor . There is good sufficiencie required in making good and fit Demands , but more in giuing them apt Answeres . To moue difficulties , without adding any Answeres or Solutions , is like the Sunne in March , which drawes humours , but dissolues them not . It may be because hee is pearched in so high a place ( as to be the Kings Confessor ) he thinks he may securely spit on euery Passenger without any returne of such a wrong . Or happily he takes delight to cut out worke for idle joke . But it is easier to tye then vntie a knot . Or it may be that the streame and torrent of his worldly or ciuill affayres do draw his minde some other wayes , and that the interposition of the earth doth ecclipse the clearenesse and brightnesse of his spirit . These are the causes of his silence as farre as I am able to deuine : He then following his questioning course to put impediment to Ministers in their better imployments hath lately put into the hands of some Honourable Personages , 32. Questions , vnanswerable as he accounts them . I haue readily and speedily answered them ; and to returne him double pay , I haue sent him 64. other Demands , to see whether he hath as good dexteritie and facilitie in answering as he hath edge and itch in asking and questioning . He shall much deceiue me , if he make any answere . He should also be the first , that hath vndertaken to doe it . At the least , this profit I shall receiue by it , that if he answere not my Demands , I shall be for euer hereafter freed from answering his : and he shall no longer vaunt ( as hee hath often done ) that we haue nothing to answere him . The Answeres to the 22. and 29. Demands are corrected , and much enlarged . Farewell . TVVO AND THIRTIE DEMANDS , PROPOVNDED BY Father COTTON . 1 FIRST , let those of the pretended Religion shew vs where it is written that there are but two Sacraments , to wit , Baptisme and the Supper , and in what place in the Scripture they be called Sacraments . 2 That Children may be saued by the sole faith of their Parents , without being baptised : and that therefore Baptisme is not of absolute necessitie . 3 That Baptisme must not be administred without a Sermon . 4 That it is not lawfull to make the signe of the Crosse . 5 That we may not hallow water , and being hallowed , that we ought not to vse it . 6 That the Bread of the Supper is onely the figure of the body of Iesus Christ . 7 That the Church may erre . 8 That we must not receiue Traditions . 9 That the Saints in glory cannot heare our prayers . 10 That Priests and religious persons may breake their vow of Obedience , Chastitie , and Pouertie , which they haue made vnto God. 11 That the estate of Marriage is more acceptable to God , then single life . 12 That the Bookes of the Machabees , of Wisdome , of Ecclesiasticus , of Tobias , of Baruch , are Apocriphall . 13 That Iesus Christ descended not into hell for the soules of the Fathers that attended his comming , or rather that before the Ascention of Iesus Christ , the soules of the Saints were receiued into heauen , not into Limbus , or into any other third place . 14 That wee ought not to confesse our sinnes but to God onely . 15 That Faith onely doth Iustifie . 16 That the punishment of sinne is taken away , together with the fault . 17 That God created not all men of like condition ; but that hee created some to saluation , and others to eternall damnation . 18 That euery man in particular hath not his particular Angell to his guardian . 19 That it is not lawfull to salute this Angell , or others , eyther in generall or in particular . 20 That God permitteth not sinne , but willeth it , as Caluin writeth in his Institutions , Lib. 1 cap. 17. § . 8. and cap. 18. § . 1. & 2. 21 That in the Church we ought not to vse lights , or Ecclesiasticall Ornaments distinguished from secular . 22 That the Bishop is inferiour to the Priest , and the Deacon superiour to the Priest ; that is to say , that the Watchman or Superintendent ouer the Church , is no more then an Elder in the Church , and that the Minister is more then the Elder . 23 That the Scripture is easie to be vnderstood , and that the intelligence thereof is graunted vnto all : these be Caluins words in his Institut . lib. 3. cap. 21. § . 5. 24 That all sinnes are mortall . 25 That a man with the grace of God cannot merit any thing . 26 That it is not possible to keepe all Gods commandements , no not with his grace . 27 That God will not recompence good workes , which is as much as to say there be no merits . 28 That there is no distinction of beatitude among the blessed , and that they are all equall in glory . 29 That we ought not to vse that imposition of hands which the Apostles vsed vpon the Samaritanes and , Ephesians , Act. 8. v. 14. & cap. 19. v. 5. and that the said confirmation was not one of the Articles of the Apostles Catechisme mentioned in the Epistle to the Hebrewes , chap. 6. vers . 2. 30 That the precept of the annoynting of the sick with oyle , contayned in S. Iames , cap. 5. v. 14. is not to be put in practise in the Church , although the Apostles vsed it , Mar. 6. v. 12. 31 That Prayer for the dead was not in vse , no not in the time of the Machabees . 32 That S. Peter was not chiefe of the Apostles , notwithstanding S. Mathew cap. 10. v. 2. doth say ; The names of the twelue Apostles are these : The first , Simon , surnamed Peter . THE ANSVVERE . WHosoeuer requireth of any man an account of his faith , must first demand an account of that he doth beleeue , and not of that which he doth not beleeue . If a man should require a Iesuite to proue vnto him , that there be many Gods , either that Iesus Christ neuer suffered death , he would say that such demands were iniurious and that they did wrongfully goe about to make him a defender of impieties & absurdities : and yet such is their demeanour towards vs ; for of these 32. demands onely one quarter doth in truth represent our Beliefe , the other 24. are slanderous : how then shall they make true report to their people of that which we beleeue , sith euen vnto our selues they would adde to our beliefe ? and haue vndertaken to make vs to beleeue that which we beleeue not . These Questions therefore we might reiect , desiring them first to proue vnto vs that we doe beleeue these points , before they binde vs to defend them . But that we make not two labours of it , let vs heare what they demand . I. DEMAND . LEt those of the pretended Religion shew vs where it is written that there are but two Sacraments , that is , Baptisme and the Lords Supper , and in what place of the Scripture they be called Sacraments . THE ANSVVERE . IN the Gospell we find the institution of Baptisme , and of the holy Supper . And reading ouer the whole Testament , we doe not finde that Iesus Christ instituted any other Sacrament . If there be any other , it belongeth to our Aduersaries to shew it vnto vs , for we are not to proue that there is no mention of any other ; for to proue this vnto them , we must read vnto them all the new Testament . As for the word Sacrament , we are not tied vnto it , neither doe we by that word vnderstand any other thing then the same is which by Iesus Christ called a Commemoration or Remembrance . Luk. 22.19 & by S. Paul , a Seale or Signe , Rom. 4.11 . We say not that all the words that may be vsed , but all that the doctine necessary to saluation is contayned in the holy Scripture . And we doe willingly apply and frame our selues to the vsuall words , alwaies prouided that the doctrine doe still remaine pure and vndefiled . II. DEMAND . That Children may be saued by the faith of the Parents onely , without Baptisme , and therefore that Baptisme is not of absolute necessitie . ANSVVERE . HEere begin the slanders , The Author of these questions hath not fully conceiued what we hold in the points . God saith to Abraham that he will be his God and the God of his seed , Gen. 17. And S. Paul. 1 Cor. 7. speaking of Children borne of faithfull Fathers and Mothers , saith , that they be holy . By the strength of this Couenant it commeth to passe that the Children of the faithfull so soone as they be borne doe belong to God. As for this absolute necessitie of Baptisme , we acknowledge that it is absolutely necessary to celebrate Baptisme in the Church , sith God that so commanded : as also according to the saying of Iesus Christ , Iohn 3. That , whosoeuer is not borne of water and the spirit cannot enter into the Kingdome of God : we beleeue that whosoeuer voluntarily doth depriue himselfe of Baptisme and contemneth it , cannot be saued . For it is the contempt , not the want or depriuation of Baptisme that bringeth condemnation . But to say that God cannot , or will not saue a childe without Baptisme , or to beleeue that a childe being carried towards Baptisme and dying by the way , is excluded from eternall saluation . 1. It is a cruell and rash sentence . 2. It is a tying of the grace of God to the water . 3. It is the committing of the saluation of a childe into the power of a man , or of a Midwife : for if they list to baptise the dying childe it shall passe into Paradise ; if not , it shall not come there . 4. It is an accusing of God , that he did prouide but badly for the saluation of Children borne vnder the old Testament , in that they might not be circumcised before the eight day . 4. Euen our aduersaries themselues doe hold that many are saued without Baptisme of water , as sundry Martyrs that were neuer baptised . They are much to blame therefore so to vrge this passage or Text of the third of Iohn , wherein themselues doe say there is no speech but of the Baptisme of water . 6. This Baptisme likewise of bloud is contrary to their Canons , which hold that the Sacrament is none , if he that baptiseth hath not an intent to baptise : for dare they auow that the executioners conferred Baptisme , or that euer they had any entent to baptise ? 7. How many people also died there by Martyrdome without effusion of bloud ? 8. Also sith Baptisme is irreiterable ( that is , not to be twise administred to one and the same person ) what reason haue they , that Martyrdome of a person baptised should not be a Sacrament , but the Martyrdome of a person not baptised should be a Sacrament ? 9. Doe not our aduersaries make themselues , mention of a Baptisme of the Spirit , which they call Baptismum flaminis , which supplieth the default of the Baptisme of water ? and what else doe we say ? 10. But if we craue formall examples out of the holy Scriptures , euery man knoweth that to the Israelites Circumcision was the same which at this day Baptisme is to vs , and that the necessitie was alike : and yet infinite people were saued vnder the old Testament without Circumcision , as all the faithfull women , and such as truly repented among the Niniuites . 11. But what a presumption was it in them to build for children dying without Baptisme , a seuerall Chamber vnder the earth , which they tearme the Childrens Limbe ; whereof we finde not any mention eyther throughout the Scriptures , or in all the antiquity of the Church ? 12. This do they place vnder the earth , yet tell they vs not where it shall be when the earth shall not be : nor whether these infants shall vndergoe the iudgement in the latter day , and what sentence the Iudge shall giue : neyther doe they shew vs the reason wherefore the bodies of these children are throwne headlong into a bottomlesse pit , which is in the Hospitall called Hostel Dieu , at Paris , as vnworthy of Buriall . III. DEMAND . That we ought not to baptise but when there is a Sermon . ANSVVERE . THis doe not we beleeue . A Sermon is seemely , but not of absolute necessity . None of vs doth beleeue that Baptisme administred without a Sermon is no Baptisme ; or that it ought to be reiterated . True it is that we say , that the Scales without writings are vnprofitable , so the Sacraments without the Word are vnfruitfull . But , by the Word , we vnderstand the promises of the Gospell , and the forme of Baptisme , instituted by Iesus Christ , and not a Sermon , as this Inquisitor weeneth . IIII. DEMAND . That it is not lawfull to make the signe of the crosse . ANSVVERE . SO doe not we say : yea , we could willingly be content to be inioyned to make a million of signes of the Crosse , so it might tend no further then to reduce our Aduersaries into the right way . Indeed we doe say , that the making of the signe of the Crosse vpon the Hoste , to expell the force of the wicked Spirits [ as Pope Innocent saith ] is as much as to seeke to succour Iesus Christ without necessitie . Also that the making of the signe of the Crosse vpon a mans mouth when he yawneth , is not the way to stop the Diuels passage , who entereth into mans heart , not by the mouth , but by the eyes & eares , that is to say , by the obiects and speeches whereby God is offended . It were therefore more requisite at the hearing of a filthy word , or of a Iesuites Sermon , to make the signe of the Crosse vpon the eare . We also say , that when that thing which in the Primitiue Church was a marke of Christian profession , grew to be an action of Superstition , it was expedient to take it away for the abuse sake : the same not being in its owne nature necessarie , neither practised by Iesus Christ , neither by his Apostles or Disciples . Especially , the making of the signe of the Crosse vpon the Singing bread , as they call it , or vpon the consecrated Hoast is in all antiquitie without example : for the Liturgies of S. Iames , and of Chrysostome are manifestly false , and forged of late , as making mention of persons that liued not of a long time after , and to all antiquitie were vtterly vnknowne . V. DEMAND . That wee may not hallow or consecrate water , and being hallowed , that we ought not to vse it . ANSVVERE . VVEE say not so : onely wee say that wee doe indeede finde that the Heathen did vse holy or lustrall water ; but that wee finde not that euer the Apostles vsed any . And because we are not so light of beliefe , we demand of our aduersaries whether the word of God doth teach them that water consecrated by either words or signes , be of any force against the Diuels : for the Gospell sheweth vs the meanes whereby the Apostles cast them out ; namely , by Faith , by Prayer , and by Fasting , Mat. 17.21 . but neuer by holy water . VI. DEMAND . That the bread of the Supper is onely the figure of the body of Iesus Christ . ANSVVERE . THis is likewise a slander . Wee doe indeede beleeue that the bread of the Supper is the figure of the body of Christ : by this figure meaning no other then the same which Iesus Christ called Commemoration . But that it is onely a figure we say not , considering that Saint Paul calleth the Sacrament of Circumcision , not onely a signe , but also a seale : thereby teaching vs that the Sacraments doe not onely signifie , but also doe seale Gods promises . We doe also beleeue the saying of Saint Paul , 1. Cor. 10. That the bread which wee breake is the Communion of the body of Christ : For the Sacraments are not onely significatiue of the grace of God , but also exhibitiue , and doe not onely represent them , but also doe present them vnto vs. VII . DEMAND . That the Church may erre . ANSVVERE . THis is likewise slaunderous : for , I beleeue , that by Church hee meaneth the same that is spoken of in the Creede : also , that hee meaneth that wee should say that she may erre in the decision of doubts , or matters of Religion , wherein hee would make vs belieue that we doe not . For we hold that the Church cannot erre in the decision of doubts , because it was neuer assembled to decide them , neyther did euer make any decision at all . For , this Church , being the Communion of Saints , and the assembly of all the elect that are , were , or shall be vpon the earth , as the Apostle to the Hebrewes , cap. 12. vers . 23. doth define it , that it is the assembly and Church of the first borne that are written in heauen , it appeareth that this body of the Elect was neuer assembled for the deciding of any matter . It therefore neuer erred in such decisions . VIII . DEMAND . That we are not to receiue Traditions . ANSVVERE . THis is euen such another , and disguiseth our beliefe . We doe not reiect all manner of Traditions , but onely such as are repugnant to the holy Scriptures , or that men do forgoe at their pleasures without necessity , by them to impose such a yoake vpon consciences , as God neuer imposed . IX . DEMAND . That the Saints in glory cannot heare our Prayers . ASVVERRE . BY Prayers we meane not the sound of words , but the conception of his heart that prayeth . 1 This the Saints doe not know : for the holy Scripture saith , that God onely knoweth the hearts of men , 1 Reg. 8. v. 99 and 2. Chron. 6. v. 30. And this is one propertie of God , whereby the holy Scripture honoureth God , viz. by knowing the hearts , Acts. 1. v. 24.2 . Moreouer there needeth a diuine power to know the thoughts of an hundred thousand persons different in places , that poure out their prayers at one time . 3. That if in seeing God , they did see all things , ( as they would perswade vs ) they should also see things to come , and consequently should know the day of iudgement , which neuerthelesse Iesus Christ saith , the very Angels are ignorant it of , and that none knoweth it , Mar. 13. v. 32.4 . If any man tell vs that God can giue them this vertue or power , we answer that here the question is not what God can doe , but what God will doe . And require our Aduersaries to make proofe of his will herein . 5. We also know that God will not haue the Saints to be Gods , or equall with God , as they should be if they had an infinite knowledge : and if in seeing God they should know all that God knoweth . 6. Furthermore the thing which doth most especially distinguish the Creator from the most excellent Creatures , is this , that God both knoweth and worketh infinite things in one and the same moment , but the continuance and actions of Creatures are successiue , and the one is done after the other . Therfore the Saints neyther know , nor can conceiue infinite things in one instant . 7. This demand doth also make a false report of our Beliefe . For , we doe not say that the Saints eyther can or cannot heare our prayers , but onely that they doe not heare them . X. DEMAND . That Priests and Monkes may breake the vowes of Obedience , Pouertie and Chastitie that they haue made to God. ANSVVERE . THE Inquisitor would perswade vs that wee beleeue this , albeit wee beleeue the contrarie : for wee doe hold that Priests ought to obserue the vowe that they haue made to obey God ; and wee complaine , that they hauing vowed obedience to God , doe obey the Pope more then God. Wee also hold that Priests ought to keepe Chastitie : but if a Priest , burning with incontinencie , haue made a vow that hee will neuer marry , such a vow as being repugnant to the vow of Chastitie , and to the vow of obeying God , ought not to be kept . The commandement of God is laid downe in 1 Cor. 7. vers . 9. If they cannot containe , let them marrie , for it is better to marry , then to burne . Whosoeuer maketh a vow to obey God , he maketh a vow to keepe this commaundement , yea , had hee made no vow , yet is hee bound to keepe it . As for the vow of pouertie , we vnderstand not how this word is meant : for the words haue at this day altered their signification : considering that we finde none so well fed , or liuing so much at ease , or gathering more pence vnder the pretence of Pardons , then those that make profession of pouertie . The pouertie of the Iesuits is more abundant then the riches of others : Pouertie , which in time passed was an affliction , is now a profession . In like manner Ignorance , which in others was a Vice , is in the ignorant Friers a vertue : vvherefore these our Masters must haue a new Calepine . XI . DEMAND . That the state of Marriage is more pleasing to God , then single life . ANSVVERE . THis is one of the greatest slanders : For contrariwise , wee doe acknowledge , that a chaste and continent single life hath aduantages aboue marriage . Onely wee say , that the chaste marriage is more acceptable to God , then incontinent and whorish single life : wee referre men to Rome , and to the Cloysters both of men and women , there to behold the fruits of Romish single life : for we , who obserue the rule of Gods word ; namely , That we must not doe euill , that good may come of it . cannot in any wise approue the cause of Cardinall Bellarmine , who being not able to deny , that at Rome the most holy Father suffereth publike Stewes , for excuse , saith , That it is lawfull for the Magistrate to permit a lesse euill , to hinder a greater : and doth shew , that God may iustly suffer sinne in the world by the example of the Magistrates , who doe graunt harlots a certaine part or quarter of the Citie to dwell in . Was it possible to finde a more honest comparison , for to represent vnto vs the Iustice of God , then the example of Magistrates , establishing the Stewes ? XII . DEMAND . That the Bookes of the Macchabees , of Ecclesiasticus , of Wisedome , of Toby , and of Baruch are Apocriphall . ANSVVERE . AFter tenne slanderous demaunds , hee hath bethought himselfe to propound one that is not so : For indeede such is our beleefe , grounded first vpon this principle of S. Paul , Rom. 3. That God is true : whereof it doth follow , that the Scripture diuinely inspired ought to be free from vntruth : but in these Bookes we finde many vntruths , vvhich our Aduersaries could neuer yet excuse , and whereof there be sundry Bookes written expressely : 2. Againe , these Bookes are not contayned in the originall of the old Testament , which is the Hebrew Bible . 3. Also , Iesus Christ and the Apostles , vvho vpon all occasions doe alleadge the passages of the olde Testament , did neuer name any of these Bookes , or out of them cite any one passage . 4. Particularly the Author of the Macchabees in his second Chapter , vers . 19. doth tell vs , that his intent was to abridge into one volume the fiue Bookes of Iason : how then can the abridgement of a prophane Booke be a Canonicall Booke ? 5. And this , that himselfe toward the end doth doubt whether hee hath spoken vvell , and as it appertaineth to the Historie : also soone after hee excuseth the basenesse of his stile : all vvhich , is farre from the dignitie of the spirit of God , vvho giueth eloquence enough to those vvhom hee inspireth , and reaping no profit by being beleeued of men , neuer excuseth himselfe vnto men . XIII . DEMAND . That Iesus Christ descended not into hell , to deliuer the soules of the Fathers that attended his comming : or at the least , that before the ascention of Iesus Christ , the soules of the Saints were receiued into heauen , not into any Limbus , or any other third place . ANSVVERE . VVE finde this euidently in the Scriptures : for wee finde that the Thiefe dyed fortie three dayes before the ascension of Iesus Christ ; also , that vpon the day of his death , Iesus Christ saide vnto him , This day thou shalt be with me in Paradise : For we are not so subtill , as by this word Paradise to vnderstand hell , or Limbus , as our aduersaries doe : principally considering , that S. Paul , 2 Cor. 12. hauing said in the second verse , that he was rauished into the third Heauen , doth soone after call this third heauen Paradise . 2. Heerevnto how Moses and Elias talked with Iesus Christ vpon the Mountaine , Mat. 17.3 . They were not therefore in some den vnder the ground . 3. Also , if the death of Iesus Christ were of power sufficient to deliuer the Fathers of the old Testament out of hell , why not out of Limbus , which is saide to be a more easie prison ? 4. If Iesus Christ his rising , drew these soules out of Limbus , yet brought them not into heauen before his ascension , what became of them all the fortie daies betweene ? 5. Finally , this so bold a fiction and hidden denne of soules , which is now saide to be vnprofitable , cannot we admit , because wee finde no proofe thereof in the vvord of God. XIIII . DEMAND . That we must not confesse our sinnes to any other , but to God onely , ANSVVERE . HEre begin the slanders againe . We say not so . But that wee must confesse our faults one to another , that is , reciprocally , as saith S. Iames. Whereof it followeth , ( forsooth ) that if a woman prostituting her selfe to her Curate , confesseth her sinne vnto him , her Curate ought reciprocally to confesse his sin to her , and so to obey the commandement of S. Iames ; who in this place speaketh not of the peoples confessing in the eare of the Priest , but of that confession that euery man ought to make to his neighbour , after he hath offended him . And this is euident by that which he hath added . Confesse ( saith he ) your offences one to another , and pray ye one for another . For as we are not to pray for the Priests onely , but for euery one that standeth in neede , so must we not confesse our selues to the Priests onely : but to euery one of the people whom we haue offended . Thus is the commandement of S. Iames equall as well for Prayer as for Confession . XV. DEMAND . That faith onely iustifieth . ANSVVERE . THis demand is fraudulent and doubtfull , or ambiguous . First , he ought to haue expounded , whether he meaneth of iustification before God , or before men : for we doe not denie , but that in the sight of men we are iustified by workes : but before God , hauing but two meanes to be iustified , eyther by our owne righteousnesse [ which is Iustification by the workes of the Law ] or by the righteousnes of another ( namely by the righteousnesse of Iesus Christ , which is by faith ) we finde in the Apostle S. Paul. Ephes . 2. vers . 8. and 9. That we are saued by grace , through faith , not by workes : And Galat. 2. vers . 9. That we are iustified by faith in Iesus Christ , and not by the workes of the Law. Now that by the works of the 1 Law , he also vnderstandeth the works of the morrall Law , the whole course of the Epistle doth shew ? for in the next Chapter he saith , Cursed is he that continueth not in the words of this Law : which is a passage alledged out of the end of the 27. Chapter of Deuteromie , wherein we haue no mention but of the transgressions against the Morrall Law. And in the fift Chapter he saith , that the whole Law is fulfilled in this onely word . Thou shalt loue thy neighbour as thy selfe . Some Iesuites doe say , that faith iustifieth , because it is the beginning of our regeneration : as if I should say , that a mans knowledge consisteth in knowing an A. and a B. because he beginneth by them . But S. Paul. Phil. 3.9 . and in many other places , opposing the righteousnesse by the Law to the righteousnesse by faith , cutteth off this shift : for as the righteousnesse by the Law is the same which consisteth wholly in the obedience to the Law , euen so the righteousnesse by faith is the same which consisteth wholly in faith : otherwise there were no opposition . And in the fourth to the Romanes , he maintaineth , that Abraham and Dauid were not iustified by workes : yet he speaketh of them , not as when they began , or before they began to be regenerate : but when they were well forward in godlinesse : namely , when Abraham offered his Sonne : and when Dauid writ the 32. Psalme : In which Psalme Dauid ( saith S. Paul ) declareth , that mans beatitude consisteth in this , that God imputeth vnto him righteousnesse without workes . Faith therefore cannot be without workes , yet doth it iustifie alone , and without workes : as our eyes are not without our eares , yet doe they onely see , and that without any helpe of the eares . XVI . DEMAND . That when the fault of sinne is taken away , the punishment also is taken away . ANSVVERE . THis is likewise slanderous : for we doe not say , that when God hath pardoned the fault , all punishment is necessarily taken away , but onely that punishment which is satisfactorie to Gods iustice . For there be punishments which serue to amend man , yet not to pay God : to correct our vniustice , yet not to satisfie Gods iustice : and these are Exercises and Trials , not Payments , which cannot be made after the fault is forgiuen : and this do we proue : 1. Because God is no mocker , neither doth he contradict himselfe . But it is a mockery to forgiue a man his sin , and not the punishment of his sinne : to tell him , I forgiue thee thy debt , not the payment of thy debt : our sins are debts , as it is said in the Lords Prayer , the payment whereof is punishment . 2. Againe , because Iesus Christ paid not otherwise for our fault , but by bearing the paine , he therefore payed for the paine , and there was but one payment for both : It is therefore the forging of a new Gospell , to imagine that he paid more for the one then for the other : for if he hath fully paid for the fault , then also for the paine . And if he hath fully paid for our paine , the same was for our acquittall , and to discharge vs. 3. Likewise because God is iust , it were iniustice to punish a man with satisfactory paine , that hath no fault , & so consequently is not faulty . The fault therefore being taken away , the paine is also taken away . XVII . DEMAND . That God created not all men to a like estate , but that he created some to be saued , & some to be perpetually damned . ANSVVERE . THese words thus rawly propounded , may be mistaken , and otherwise vnderstood then we do beleeue . In this sense they be true , That God hath predestinate some to saluation in his sonne : and others he hath preordained to damnation for their sinnes , which he fore-saw : for God damneth none but for their sinnes , neither doth he delight in the destruction of his creature : as also he hath not chosen some rather then other some in regard they are better ; but to the end to make them better : neither doth he fore-see any other goodnesse in that creature , then the same which he will infuse into him . For he is the spring of all the goodnesse that is in the creature . The Apostle S. Paul. is expresly of our minds in the ninth of his Epistle to the Romanes , and in the first to the Ephesians , vers , 4. as also the Iesuites do confesse the same hauing of late herein ranked themselues with vs , as being forced by the truth . For whereas the common opinion of others is , That God elected to saluation these whom he fore-saw should be good men , and that should doe good workes , so to merit saluation , Bellarmine on the other side disputeth tooth & naile against it in the tenth Chapter of the second Booke of Grace and Free-will , saying , God chose not men because they should bring forth the fruits of good workes , and perseuere in good workes : but he chose them to make them doers of good works , and perseuerers in goodnesse : & toward the end of the 12. Chap. he saith thus . If God predestinated men , because he foresaw that they should make good vse of free-will , why did he not predestinate the Tyrians and Sidonians , of whom Iesus Christ spake , Matth. 11. and of whom the truth doth testifie , that they could well haue vsed their free-will , and yet saith he , Out of all question they were neuer predestinate , but with the other vessels of dishonour , left in the corrupted lumpe . Wherein he followeth Thomas and S. Augustine , who were so instructed by the word of God. XVIII . DEMAND . That euery one in his owne particular hath not his Angell-Guardian . ANSVVERE . YEt one slander more . For we affirme not any thing heerein . True it is , that as concerning the faithfull , wee say with Dauid , Psal . 34. The Angell of the Lord taryeth round about them that feare him : And with the Apostle , Heb. 1. The Angels are ministring Spirits , sent for their sakes that shall be heyres of saluation . And Iesus Christ , Matth. 18. saith , that the Angels of little children doe behold the face of the heauenly Father . But that euery one ( that is to say , both the good and the bad ) as the Questionarie saith , hath an Angell-Guardian , wee finde not in the Scripture . Considering withall , that wee see some Iesuites aske counsell of the Diuels concerning things to come , and concerning Questions of Diuinitie , which surely they would neuer doe , if they had any one good Angell Guardian , for they would rather aske counsell of him . XIX . DEMAND . That it is not lawfull to salute or to inuocate or craue ayde of this Angel , or any other eyther in generall or in particular . ANSVVERE . TO salute an Angell or a Saint is a mocking of them : to inuocate a Saint or an Angell is an offence to God. The reasons are euident . To salute one , is to say , God keepe you , or Good-Morrow : also , to salute , is to desire ones health , which is a kinde of prayer that wee make for him . But our Aduersaries doe acknowledge it to be a wrong to a Saint to pray for him . And it is a grosse abuse , euen at this day , to say to the Virgin Mary , Aue Maria , that is to say , God keepe thee Mary : this is no inuocating or calling vpon , but a praying for her . As for inuocating an Angell or Saint , it is repugnant to the rules and examples of Gods word . 1. Saint Paul saith , that wee cannot inuocate any , but him in whom we beleeue : How shall they ( saith hee ) inuocate him on whom they haue not beleeued ? Rom. 10. But we are taught both by the Scripture , and by our Beliefe , to say , I beleeue in God the Father , and in Iesus Christ , and in the holy Ghost : but in no wise , I beleeue in any Creature . 2. It is also requisite , that hee , whom a man doth inuocate , should know his heart that doth inuocate him , and be assured whether hee be an Hypocrite . But Gods word doth testifie , that God onely knoweth the hearts of men . 3. Neither can we haue any better Aduocate then Iesus Christ , who ( saith Saint Paul , 1 Tim. 2. ) is our onely Mediator . 4. Sith also it is God himselfe that inspireth our hearts to pray , and stirreth vp in vs those groning sighes that S. Paul , Rom. 8.25 . speaketh of , what neede we any intercessors to commend vnto God that prayer which God himselfe hath inspired into vs ? or to cause the voyce of the Spirit of God to be acceptable vnto God ? 5. Neyther do we finde any example or commandement to inuocate Creatures , throughout all the holy Scripture : but one expresse example wee haue of an Angell reiecting the adoration of S. Iohn , who did not adore this Angell , as thinking him to be God : for in the Reuelat. cap. 21. v. 9. he saith directly , that it was one of the seauen Angels that had the seauen Vials , who soone after forbad S. Iohn , when he would haue worshipped him , cap. 21. v. 9. 6. To be briefe , our Aduersaries are in this cause so perplexed that they begin openly to teach that inuocation of Saints is not necessarie , and that wee may be saued without it , notwithstanding , Pope Innocent the third affirmeth the contrarie in his third Booke of the Mysteries of the Masse , cap. 9. Necessarium nobis est in via Sanctorum suffragium , &c. And that the Masse is not content with their intercessions onely , but also craueth of God saluation through their merits , euen so farre forth that Bellarmine saith , that they be in some sort our Redeemers . And indeede it is holden , that they pay for vs , sith the Pope doth conuert their supererogatory satisfactions into payments for other men . All this is taken out of the vnwritten word . XX. DEMAND . That God permitteth not sinne , but willeth it , as Caluin saith in his Institutions , lib. 1. cap. 17. §. 8. & cap. 18. §. 1. & . 2. ANSVVERE . VVEE heare that our Aduersaries haue printed Caluins Institutions , wherein they haue altered whatsoeuer they list : if it be so , it must needes be that the author of these questions hath thereout taken all that he imputeth vnto Caluin . For so farre is Caluin in the eight Section of the seauenteenth Chapter of his first Booke , from saying that God willeth sinne , that euen throughout all that Section there is not one word of sinne ; neyther doth hee there speake of the euill of the fault , but of the euill of the punishment , and afflictions . As concerning the first and second Sect. of the 18. Chapter , the Author taketh this word ( to will ) in a contrarie sence . For it doth not import that God is the author of sinne , but it onely excludeth the naked and idle permission : Because the wicked , doing euill , ( as Iudas and the Iewes , when they betrayed and crucified Iesus Christ ) doe it voluntarily and of their owne motion : and yet neuerthelesse for all this doe no more but what the counsell of God had before determined should be done , as saith S. Peter , Acts 4.8 . Thus you see in one Demand two slanders , here followes the third : that is , that this Demand presupposeth that wee are grounded vpon Caluin , or bound to defend him , whom neuerthelesse wee knew to be a man and subiect to errour , who also doth still referre vs to the Scriptures , to the end wee should not build vpon him . The slaunders of our Aduersaries doe more binde vs to reade him then his owne authoritie . But our Aduersaries doe not rancke the Popes in this degree : for , they hold that the Popes cannot erre in Faith , and therefore they are bound to defend all their sayings : as the saying of Pope Clement , 1. who in Causa 12. Can. Dilectissimis , approueth the opinion of Plato , who saith that Goods and Wiues ought to be common : and calleth him the wisest of all the Greekes . Also , the opinion of Iohn the 24. who taught , that the soules of men doe dye with the soules of beasts : and for the same was condemned in the Councell of Constance , Sess . 11. Also the Canon Christiano , in the 34. Distinction , which saith , that A Christian ought to haue but one Wife , and for want of a Wife a Concubine . Also the Canon a Hacratione , caus . 31. qu. 1. which saith that the Apostle S. Paul spake against both truth and reason . In this Demand there is yet a fourth tricke of bad meaning . Hee requireth a proofe of that which Caluin saith in such and such places , and yet in the same places he might haue found the proofes added by Caluin himselfe : would hee wish vs to copie him out the Chapters ? or can he better reade our writing then the Impression of the Institution ? Let him then seeke the places if he list : and if they content him not , let him refute them . XXI . DEMAND . That we must vse no Lights in the Church , neither any Ecclesiasticall Ornaments , distinguished from the seculers . ANSVVERE . VVHo euer said so ? Doe not wee our selues light vp Candles in our Churches , when we cannot well see ? Haue not the Pastors habits conuenient for the Action or seruice , in the Churches , where they may goe on foot to * serue God without riding on horseback ? But to aske whether we may light vp Candles at high-noone , is a question out of the compasse of Diuinitie , and may be decided by common sense . For , it is as much as to aske whether we must walke through the towne with Lanthorne at high-noone , or whether we shall need a combe to a bald head . We know that the Gentiles vsed Tapers in broad day-light , and lighted them about the Images of their Gods and great Personages : but we are not their Disciples , And vpon this quarrell doth S. Hierome confute the slander of Nigilantius who complained that we light vp Candles in the broad day-light . We light not vp ( saith S. Hierome ) any Tapers in broad day-light , as thou vainely dost slander vs : but onely by this remedie to qualifie the darkenesse of the night . XXII . DEMAND . That a Bishop is inferiour to a Priest , and that a Deacon is aboue a Priest ; that is to say , that the Superintendent is no more then an Elder in the Church , and that the Minister is aboue the Elder . ANSVVERE . A Slander . We say not that the Bishop is inferiour to the Priest : but onely that in the new Testament the same persons are called Priests and Bishops . 1. Saint Paul to the Phil. 1. v. 1. salutes the Bishops and Deacons of Philippi , omitting the Priests , and naming many Bishops in a heathen towne , where the Church was small , it is euident that he tearmeth the Priests , Bishops . 2. In the 20. of the Acts. vers . 17. the same Apostle assembleth the Priests and Elders of the Church of Ephesus : but in the 28. verse he tearmeth the selfe-same persons Bishops . 3. Likewise , in the Epistle to Titus , cap. 2. ver . 5. he saith , I haue left thee in Creete , that thou mightest establish 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Priests or elders from towne to town ; namely , if there be any that is vnreproueable , the Husband of one Wife onely , hauing faithfull Children , not accused of dissolutenesse : For , a Bishop must be vnreproueable , &c. Who perceiueth not , that here he nameth him a Bishop whom a little before he called a Priest ? Now the reason why Presbyters or Priests are called Bishops or ouer-seers , is , because the power of Priestly Order . 1. Of dispensing the Word and the Sacraments ( wherein that ouer-sight of theirs essentially consists ) is equally in Presbyters or Priests , and in those whom now by an excellency wee call Bishops or Ouer-seers : I meane Ouer-seers not onely for their power of dispensing the Word and Sacraments , but also for their power of Iurisdiction and gouernment in their owne Churches . For , the Apostles ordayning many coassistant Presbyters or Priests , for the edification of the newly conuerted Cities , with their neighbouring places ( which they called Churches ) for the auoyding of Schisme and confusion , and preseruation of vnitie , peace and order established a Fatherly preheminence or prioritie ( not a Princely as Bellarmine contends ) of one Presbyter aboue the rest , not in the power of order , wherein I said they were all equall : but in the execution or exercise of diuers particulars that belong to that power ; as Dedicating of Churches , Confirming of the Baptised , but especially ordination of Ministers , which things onely in case of necessitie ( that is , in defect of Orthodoxe Bishops ) were and might be performed by Presbyters , as appeares they were by Saint Ambrose , on the fourth to the Ephesians . Whereas otherwise in the presence of Orthodoxe Bishops , the Presbyters were not to meddle with these things which were reserued onely to the Bishops . Without whose leaue ( say Ignatius and Tertullian ) they may neyther preach , baptise , minister Sacraments , or doe any ministeriall acts . And as one Presbyter euer from the time of the Apostles , had this eminent and Bishoply power aboue the rest , in the execution or exercise of ministeriall acts , least , ( as Ierome speakes ) there should be as many Schismes as there are Priests : so for the auoyding of like Schisme and Confusion , Bishops haue euer had a preeminent power of Iurisdiction and gouernment in their owne Churches , by Ecclesiasticall censures . As for the word Deacon , the Scriptures apply it to euery Ecclesiasticall Function , yea , euen to Iesus Christ , vvho was often called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that is , Deacon , or Minister . The Apostle to the Hebrewes , cap. 8. v. 2. tearmeth him , The Minister of the Santuary . And Rom. 15. v. 8. The Minister of Circumcision . And in the same Chapter , S. t Paul calleth himselfe The Minister of Iesus Christ , Likewise to the Collossians foure times . Thus doth he exhort Timothy to be a good Minister of Iesus Christ , 1 Tim. 4.6 . yet in the Subscription of the second Epistle he is called a Bishop . Thus you see that in the phrase of Scriptures , the same persons are called sometimes Priests or Presbyters , sometimes Bishops or Ouerseers , sometimes Deacons or Ministers . Though wee will not denie , that the vvord Deacon in a more restrained acception , was vsually applied to him that administred the goods or mony of the poore , and the Church-Treasure , euen in the Apostles time , to ease them of that care . But when the Treasurie of the Church increasing , was committed to certaine Stewards , and the poore otherwise prouided for , they were more specially vsed for the assisting of the Bishop and Presbyters in things pertayning to Gods Seruice and worship . Wherupon Tertullian witnesseth , that in some cases they might baptise : Saint Cyprian , that they might reconcile penitents : Saint Gregory , that they might preach : and againe Saint Cyprian , that they assisted the Bishop and Presbyters in ministring the Sacrament of the Lords body and bloud , and ministred the Cup. Out of the societie and companie of Deacons in each Church , there was one anciently chosen , saith Saint Hierome , who was not onely to performe the things pertayning to the Deacons Office , but also to prescribe vnto others what they should doe : and such were called Arch-deacons . These in processe of time ( notwithstanding all Canons to the contrary , and the violent opposition of Saint Hierome and other worthies of those times ) were lifted vp , not onely aboue Presbyters , but Arch-presbiters also , for these reasons . 1 Because the number of Presbyters ( as Hierome notes ) made them lesse esteemed , and the fewnesse of Deacons made them the more honoured . 2 Because they were busied in the Church-Treasure , and in money matters , which are vsually more regarded imployments . 3 Because being Ministers vnto the Bishop , they were vsed by him for the viewing of such parts of his Diocesse , as he could not conueniently come vnto himselfe ; the dispatch of things for him ; and in the end , for reformation of the lesser and smaller faults , which vpon such view they should finde . Whereupon at last , they obtayned a kinde of Iurisdiction , and power of correction by prescription and custome . But this maketh nothing against the Arch-deacons in the Church of England , who vnder that name exercise Iurisdiction . For , by the Canons of our Church they are Presbiters , chosen to assist the Bishop in his gouernment , and not meere Deacons , as sometimes they were . XXIII . DEMAND . That the Scripture is easie to be vnderstood , and that the vnderstanding thereof is granted to all . They be the words of Caluin in the 3. of his Institutions , Cap. 21. §. 5. ANSVVERE . IN this passage of Caluin , wee finde not one word of this matter : neyther doth any man deny , but that in the holy Scripture there be darke places . Onely wee say , that all that is in the Scripture is not obscure , and that , that which is apparant , is sufficient to saluation . The tenne Commandements , and the Articles of faith , contained in the Creed , are there plainely layd downe and expounded . The Fathers in the olde Testament knew not so much , and yet were saued : besides , that there are infinite more matters cleare in the Scriptures : If therefore Caluin in any place haue so sayd , he meaneth that in the holy Scripture euery man may vnderstand enough for his saluation . But hee neuer termed the Scripture Theramenes buskin , A Sword for all hands : a Forrest of Forragers : hee neuer said that it maketh a man an Atheist , and that hee that beleeueth because he hath read the Scripture , is no Christian , as saith a Charron . Neither did he call it , as b Bellarmine doth , a piece of a Rule ; neyther doth hee say : That the holy Scripture ( saying of it selfe that it is Diuine ) cannot herein be certainely beleeued , if we haue no other testimonie : for ( saith he ) Mahumets Alcaron saith as much of Mahomet , in whom we doe not beleeue , lib. 4. De verbo Dei non scripto , cap. 4. § . Quarto necesse . XXIIII . DEMAND . That all sinnes are mortall . ANSVVERE . VVEE doe not simply say so : But our Aduersaries making two sorts of sinne , some mortall , and some veniall , that is to say , pardonable : 1. Wee say , that to the faithfull repenting him of his sinnes , all sinnes are veniall and pardonable : also that the same sinnes which our aduersaries doe hold to be mortall , as Murther and Whoredome , doe grow pardonable in the faithfull that doe amend , as appeareth by the example of Dauid . But as for the wicked and impenitent , in them all sinnes are mortall : that is to say , in that they abide in them to death , and that God punisheth them all by death euerlasting . 2. We also say , that it is rashnesse in our Aduersaries to define that there be but seauen mortall sinnes , and that all other sinnes are not so : for it belongeth to the Iudge , not to the Offender , to iudge what punishment euery sinne doth deserue : but we are all guiltie , and haue neede of remission in the sight of God. 3. But among their mortall sinnes , why haue they not put Herefie , Atheisme , Superstition , Slandering , &c. Be these small sinnes , and pardonable in the iudgement of his Holinesse ? 4. To call a mans brother Foole , or to speake euill of him , are they mortall sinnes in the iudgement of the Church of Rome ? No , say they : yet doth Iesus Christ in the fift of Matthew , say , That whosoeuer doth call his brother Foole , is in danger of hell fire : And S. Paul , 1 Cor. 6. vers . 10. saith , That slanderers shall not enter into the Kingdome of heauen . XXV . DEMAND . That with the grace of God we can merit nothing . ANSVVERE . THis Demand answereth it selfe : For whatsoeuer is of Grace , is not of merit , saith S. Paul , Rom. 11. vers . 6. If it be of grace , it is no more of workes , or else were grace no more grace . To merit by grace , agreeth as well as to be frozen with heat : or to be wet with drougth . 1. For how may we merit by grace , considering that it is grace that keepeth our good workes from being meritorious ? that is to say , that they proceede from the grace of God. 2. Againe : Saluation is a gift , Rom. 6. vers . 23. Ephes . 2. vers . 8. and 9. Then is it not obtained by merits . 3. And Saluation is an Inheritance belonging to the faithfull , for as much as they be the children of God , as saith Saint Paul , Rom. 8. The spirit of God beareth witnesse with our spirit , that we are the children of God : and if we be children , saith he , then are we heyres : But no man by merits purchaseth that inheritance which belongeth vnto him as a Sonne . Moreouer , Iesus Christ saith , Luke 17.10 . When we haue done all that wee are commanded , yet are we vnprofitable seruants : but what can be the merit of an vnprofitable seruant ? Admit also that our good workes were as perfect , as they be mixed with infirmitie , and that wee were more righteous then the Angels : vvhat goodnesse vvere there in all this , vvhich also were not the gift of God ? and what merit can there be in offering to God that which is alreadie his , and from him ? Wee confesse that GOD rewardeth good workes : but there be rewards that are not deserued . The Father will giue his Sonne a new coat , because he made an A. or a B. yet not in regard of his Sonnes merit , but of his owne promise , or for that he is his Sonne . But by the way we are to note , that this inquirer doth disguise our opinion , and altereth the Controuersie : for our difference is not , whether it be possible to merit with the grace of God ; but whether the holy Scripture doth teach vs that we must merit , or purchase saluation by our merits . XXVI . DEMAND . That it is vnpossible to keepe Gods Commandements , euen with his grace . ANSVVERE . THis must be asked of them that beleeue it . Wee doubt not but God can giue some man grace to keepe his Commandements . XXVII . DEMAND . That God will giue no recompence to good workes , which is all one , as to say , that there be no meritorious workes . ANSVVERE . A Slander . Wee hould that God doth recompence good workes : but that heereof it doth not ensue that good workes are meritorious , and betweene these two there is a great deale of difference . This haue wee shewed in the answere to the 25. demand . XXVIII . DEMAND . That there is no distinction of beatitude betweene the blessed , and that they are all equall in glory . ANSVVERE . THe Inquisitor is much deceiued , if hee thinke vs to be of that beliefe . In these curious things we suffer euery man to thinke what he list . It is the propertie of the Popes and Church of Rome , not onely to place in the ranke of Saints whom they please , after the Imitation of the Pagan Apotheosis , or Deifying of the Roman Senate , but also to ascribe to euery one his office : to one the charge of horses : to another the charge ouer women with childe , to another ouer France , to another ouer Spayne , &c. and ouer them all to appoint the Queene of heauen , with extreame iniurie to the holy and blessed Virgin , who taketh no pleasure in that honour wherein God is dishonoured , whose Coelestiall Royaltie is incommunicable with the creature . Also that men should attribute titles & dignities celestiall vnto Saints , without any testimonie of Gods word , is a matter no lesse ridiculous and rash , then if the Ants or Pismires should hold a counsell to conserue the offices of the Crowne of France , and the charge of the priuie Councell to such men as they list . XXIX . DEMAND . That we must not vse the like Imposition of hands , as the Apostles vsed ouer those of Samaria and of Ephesus . Act. 8. vers . 14. and cap. 19. vers . 5. And that the said Confirmation was not one of the Articles of the Apostles Catechisme , mentioned in the Epistle to the Hebrewes . cap 6. vers . 2. ANSVVERE . HEre is a double slander , and an imposture . For 1. where you say , we denie you may vse the like Imposition of hands , as did the Apostles ; we denie not but you may if you can bestow the like miraculous gifts as did the Apostles vpon the Samaritanes , by laying on of your hands . Secondly , you imply that wee denie all Imposition of hands : whereas we will grant you the like forme ( though not altogether the like effect ) of imposition of hands , as was vsed by the Apostles . For as after Philip had catechised the Samaritanes , and taught them the chiefe points of Christian Doctrine the Apostles came and prayed for them , and laid their hands on them : So after children or youth in their owne persons , haue made publike and particular profession of the summe of their faith , or Christian Catechisme ( which others in their name did summarily professe for them , at their Baptisme ) we denie not but Prayer may be made for them , that strength & increase of the Grace of the holy Ghost may be giuen them , to liue and die in that Christian faith , and newnesse of life , whereof they haue made profession . And that to those prayers may well be added that ancient and Apostolike ceremonie of Imposition of hands , betokening our restrained desires to the parties whom we present to God by our prayers . But herein is a notable Imposture : that you would perswade vs , that the Confirmation or Imposition of hands , vsed by your Popish Bishops , is like that of the Apostles . Did they consecrate Oyle mixed with Balme ? did they crosse it , breath vpon it , salute it , Aue sanctum Chysma . Haile , holy Chrysme ? Did they annoynt the Samaritanes with such Oyle ? Make crosses in their fore-heads , giue them kisses , and claps in their eares , binde their fore-heads with Fillets , and enioyne them not to wash their faces or heads for seauen daies , as the Popish Bishops doe , in their Confirmation ? which being more like a May-game ( as they vse it ) then a Sacrament ( as they make it , though Christ did not institute it ) yet doth the Church of Rome hold it , in greater estimation then Baptisme . The administration whereof they permit to Priests , to Women , yea , euen to the Iewes and Heathen : alwayes reseruing to the Bishops only the power of Confirmation . Pope Melchiades in the second distinction of consecration , comparing Baptisme with Confirmation , saith that the Sacrament or Confirmation ought to be held in greater honour . And Bellarmine in his Booke of Confirmation , and eleauenth Chapter , saith it is great power to strengthen the soule against the Diuell . It would make a man laugh to heare this Inquisitour enquire whether in the Apostles Catechisme there was euer an Article of Confirmation . For it were his part to proue that there was one , not ours to proue there was none . It is his part that affirmeth , to proue . The rather for that , we dare not assuredly auow , that the Apostles had any ordinarie forme of Catechisme . And the sixt Chapter to the Hebrewes , in the iudgement of our learned Diuines , doth proue Confirmation to haue beene vsed by the Apostles , or by their approbation , yet doth it not proue Confirmation was an Article of their Catechisme . XXX . DEMAND . That the precept of annoynting the sicke with Oyle , laid downe in the 5. of Iames. vers . 14. ought not to be put in practise in the Church , albeit it was vsed by the Apostles . Mark. 6. ver . 13. ANSVVERE . THe Inquisitour alledging S. Mark. 6. vers . 13. answereth himselfe , for S. Marke saith , They cast out many Diuels , and annoynted many that were sicke with Oyle , and healed them . The Apostles and Disciples were therefore commanded to annoynt the sicke , to heale them : If any one hath this miraculous gift of healing , we doe very well like that he should annoynt the sicke : But at these dayes they annoynt those whose diseases are desperate , and the miracles are all reduced to one onely kinde , which is the coniuring of Diuels : Thus of a Medicine it is made a Sacrament : and a miraculous Vnction which healed the bodies , is now growne to be an Vnction vnprofitable both to the bodie , and to the soule . After the losse of the vertue , they labour to preserue the Ceremony , and yet so altered , and diuersly changed by an artificiall kinde of trouble that it will aske at the least a good halfe houres worke to conferre extreame Vnction . XXXI . DEMAND . That Prayer for the dead was not in vse , euen in the time of the Machabees . ANSVVERE . VVHether it were then vsed or not vsed , it importeth not much : For we liue not now by the example of the Machabees , but by the rule of the Gospell , we therefore affirme nothing vpon the point . For the Author of the Booke of the Machabees , hauing reported many things contrary to the truth of the Storie , might well doe the like in the 12. Chapter of the second booke thereof . The principall matter is , that he there speaketh of Prayer for the dead , which nothing pertayneth to the controuersie of these dayes : for the Author saith , that Iudas in that prayer remembred the resurrection , and that otherwise it had beene a folly to pray for the dead . Where shall we finde that Masse-Priest , who if you demand of him wherfore he recommendeth the deceased in his memento , will answere , that it is to the end he may rise againe in glory , or that he regardeth the resurrection ? XXXII . DEMAND . That S. Peter was not the first of the Apostles , albeit S. Matth. cap. 10. v. 2. saith , The names of the twelue Apostles are these : The first , Simon , called Peter , &c. ANSVVERE . THis likewise is calumnious as well as the former , and almost all the rest . Wee deny not but Saint Peter was the first among the Apostles ; for it is of no importance . He might be the first in age , in eloquence , in vertues , or miracles , or in knowledge . All this is possible , without hauing power or iurisdiction ouer the rest of the Apostles , which is that kinde of Primacie for the which they plead so hard in these dayes . 1 For had the Apostles knowne that Iesus Christ had giuen the superioritie and command ouer the rest vnto Saint Peter , they would neuer after haue contended among themselues about Primacie , and that euen the day before the death of IESVS CHRIST , Luke 22.24 . 2 And S. Iohn , cap. 1. and S. Paul , Gal. 2. would neuer haue named Saint Peter after Saint Andrew and Saint Iames. 3 Neyther would the Apostles haue vnder-taken to haue sent S. Peter to Samaria , Acts 8.15 . 4 Neyther would S. Paul haue said of himselfe that in nothing hee was inferiour to the most excellent Apostles , 2 Cor. 11. & 12. vvhere hee saith , IN NOTHING , he taketh away all exception . 5 Besides that , say that S. Peter had superioritie of Iurisdiction ouer the other Apostles , doth it therefore ensue that the same ought to be perpetuall in the Church ? allso , that if one man haue commaund ouer a few , that therefore one man must gouerne all the Church throughout the world ? 6 Doth it also follow that the Bishop or Rome should be his Successor in this Primacie ? But , say these Doctors , Saint Peter dyed at Rome . Admit it were so : but Iesus Christ dyed at Hierusalem , shall the death of Saint Peter at Rome be of greater force to deriue the Primacie to the Bishop of Rome , then the death of Iesus Christ in Hierusalem , to deriue the Primacie to the Bishop of Hierusalem ? 7 Againe , admit the Pope were Saint Peters Successor ; doth it follow that hee must succeede him in his Apostleship : for others will say that he is not his Successor but in qualitie of Bishop of Rome : and thereof there is farre greater appearance : for , likewise the Bishop of Hierusalem was Successor to Saint Iames ; and the Bishop of Ephesus succeeded Saint Iohn and Saint Paul , in that these Apostles were Bishops of Hierusalem and Ephesus ; yet were they not their Successors in the function of Apostles . 8 Finally , were the Pope Saint Peters Successor in qualitie of an Apostle , and of the head of the Church ; had he not long since lost this Succession by reuersing the doctrine of Saint Peter , and liuing in the estate of a temporall Monarch , not of a spirituall Pastor ? If then he be Successour to Saint Peter , it is in like manner as sicknesse succeedeth health , and as an vsurper succeedeth in place of him whom he hath expelled . To what purpose are the keyes , which serue onely but to shut vp heauen ? or Simons Barke , which hath no other vse then to trafficke withall ? or his Net , which at this day is imployed onely in fishing for Dukedomes , and to entangle Common-wealths ? THREE SCORE and foure Demands , propounded to the Iesuites of the COVRT . 1. WHether the Doctrine of the Gospell be sufficient to saluation : also whether the Gospell be wholy contayned in the new Testament : or if there be but a part thereof , where we may finde the rest . 2 When the * Prohibition , in these dayes made to the Lay-people , that they shall not reade the holy Scripture without especiall permission , did first beginne . 3 Whether in the holy Scripture there be eyther example or commandement to pray vnto Saints : wee aske not whether they pray for the faithfull that are vpon earth , but whether the faithfull that are vpon earth ought to pray vnto them , and where God commandeth it . 4 Sith wee should offend the King , if at his hands wee should craue any gift through the merits of some other subiect of his : how dare they in the Romish Church speake vnto God in such manner as they dare not speake to man for feare of offending him , in crauing at Gods hand saluation through the merits of Saints , * as the Priest doth in his Masse . 5 What assurance haue wee that the blessed Virgin Mary was in body rapt vp into Heauen , and there crowned Queene of Heauen ? For sith shee is so protrayted in all your Churches , and the people so taught , there ought to be some very assured testimonie of the same . 6 Whether the Saints in Paradise haue their distinct charges . One ouer France , as S. Denise : another ouer Spaine , as S. Iames : another ouer Women with childe , as S. Margaret : another ouer Hunters , as S. Eustace , &c. Who gaue them those offices : also when this opinion first beganne . 7 Whether praying vnto Saints be necessary to saluation : also , whether by praying vnto GOD onely through Iesus Christ , we cannot be saued . 8 Whether God hath commanded to pray in such a tongue , as euen he that prayeth doth not vnderstand : and when this custome beganne . 9 Whether throughout the holy Scripture we haue eyther commaundement or example to haue in Temples the Image of God , or of the Trinitie , represented in stone or in painting . Also whereas God in the 4. of Deuteronomy , vers . 15. & 16. prohibiteth the representing of him in any grauen similitude or Image , be it of male or female : whether hee hath since changed this ordinance : or if hee haue not changed it , wherefore doth the Romish Church dispence therewith . 10 Whether in the holy Scripture there be eyther Commandement or example , that we ought to kneele before the Images of Saints , to kisse , cloathe , light , or sence them , &c. 11 Whether we ought to adore the Crosse with like adoration as God ; as Thomas in his 3. Part. quest . 25. and Cardinall Caietane vpon the same place , and many other Doctors of the Romish Church doe teach . Also , when the Priest speaking to the Wood , saith , Aue lignum triumphale , I salute thee triumphant Wood , whether this Wood vnderstandeth what he saith : if they answere that they doe it in the honour of Iesus Christ , yet ought the Wood whereto they speake in the honour of Iesus Christ , to vnderstand what is said vnto it ; considering also , that to speake to the Wood of the of the Kings Chayre in honour of the King , is rather a mockage then an honour to the King : and indeede where did God euer command it ? 12 Whether Iesus Christ hath not paid enough to exempt soules out of the fire of Purgatorie : and if he hath paid enough , why should any man pay againe that which is alreadie fully paid ? Why should they againe satisfie Gods iustice for that wherein it is alreadie satsfied ? what a presumption is it , to teach that Iesus Christ hath not satisfied for the paine due to sinnes committed after Baptisme , and so to impare the vertue of the death of our Sauiour ? and in a matter of greatest importance to forgoe a new Article of faith , without any testimonie of the holy Scripture ? 13 Sith also , that Iesus Christ is yet an Intercessor and Mediator for those soules which they say are yet in Purgatorie , why doe they not immediately come forth at his Intercession , but doe still abide there , some hundreds or thousands of yeeres , as appeareth by the Pardons for fiue or sixe hundred thousand yeeres granted by the Pope . 14 Againe , inasmuch as other Orders of Fryers are at this time of small esteeme in regard of the Iesuites , how comes it to passe , that in priuiledges of the Iesuites are inferiour to the Carmelites , and to the Fraternitie of Minorites or Franciscans ? For , the Popes haue granted to the Carmelites this priuiledge , That they shall remaine no longer in Purgatory but vntill the next Saturday after their decease . And the Fraternitie of the Franciscans haue also this priuiledge that they may fetch a soule out of Purgatory * by saying fiue Paters ; and as many Auees vpon the Saturday before Palme-Sunday : how , I say commeth it to passe that the Iesuites haue no such priuiledge ? 15 In as much as the Church of Rome doth hold that Purgatorie shall continue no longer but vntill the day of Iudgement , whereof it followeth that none of the faithfull that shall then liue , shall goe into Purgatory : we demand how it commeth , that Gods Iustice requireth of them no satisfaction by Purgatory , and yet it is now said that they goe into Purgatorie to satisfie Gods Iustice ? Is it not an heauie misfortune that a man dying at this day , and going into Purgatorie , there to be tormented certaine hundreds of yeeres , was not borne in that latter age ? for then albeit he had merited tenne times more punishment , yet should he haue beene exempt from the fire of Purgatory . 16 Againe , in as much as in the Romane Church they hold that Infants dying soone after Baptisme doe goe straight into Paradise , what is the reason that Priests doe take money to pray and to say Masses for them ; and what benefit doe these Infants reape by the the same ? 17 Againe , let them tell vs whether in the holy Scripture there be any Commandement that wee shall eate no flesh vpon Fridayes or Saturdayes , considering that euen the ordinarie day wherein Iesus Christ eate the Passeouer , was the Friday , and that Saint Paul willeth vs , 1 Cor. 10. that if wee be inuited to the houses of Infidels , wee should eate of all that is set before vs without enquiring for conscience sake . 18 Let them also shew vs where God forbiddeth Bishops or Priests to marry : also whether when Saint Paul writ to Timothie , saying , Let the Bishop be vnreproueable , the Husband of one onely Wife , the law of single life were already established . 19 VVhere Iesus Christ commanded to sacrifice a propitiatorie Sacrifice for the quicke and for the dead . And because their Priests vocation is , that they are established to sacrifice Iesus Christ , where is their passe or warrant ? or where did God establish them Sacrificers ? considering that Iesus Christ gaue not this qualitie to his Disciples , and that the new Testament doth not in any place tearme the Pastors of the Church Sacrificers ? 20 Whether Iesus Christ or his Apostles did euer minister the Supper without Communicants : also who instituted the first priuate Masses : likewise , the Masses for Corne , for Heards , for finding things lost , &c. 21 How it commeth to passe that the Masses for Obits and anniuersaries are not founded but for those that haue giuen to the Church : and that the foure Orders of begging Fryers are not present at the deaths or Funerals of the needie or poore Artificers . 22 Let them tell vs whether the Priest in his Masse breaketh the same things that Iesus Christ brake in his Supper : for the Euangelists doe testifie that our Lord made his breaking before the words , which they tearme Consecrating , whereof it followeth that he brake but bread , but the Priest at this day breaketh , after the consecration , and which is worse , saith that in breaking he doth sacrifice : which is as much as euidently to say that Iesus Christ sacrificed bread because hee brake it before consecration . 23 Also because euery reproch that befell to Iesus Christ during his infirmitie , befell him for our Saluation : wee demand what this reproch wherein the Doctors , Canons , and Cauteles of the Romish Church doe say , that the bodie of the Lord is sometimes deuoured by Mice and Rats , and sometime by Wormes , euen now that he is in his glory , doth helpe our saluation ? 24 Wherefore , sith the Apostles adored not that which Iesus Christ gaue them in the Eucharist : also , that whereas Iesus spake not of sacrifice , neyther made any eleuation of the Hoast , hauing communicated to all that were present , and spoken in a language that all vnderstood : the Priest at this day doth euery thing contrarie . 25 Also , in as much as the bodie of Iesus Christ , when he celebrated the Eucharist was frayle , passible , and mortall : but that this bodie which the Apostles receiued of him , was impassible , and could suffer nothing , according to the doctrine of our Aduersaries , let them tell vs whether this opinion be receiueable , which giueth to Iesus Christ at one time two bodies of contrary nature , or at the least one bodie contrarie to it selfe . 26 Sith also , that soone after that the Apostles had receiued the Sacrament into their stomackes , Iesus Christ sweate drops of bloud , was apprehended , buffeted , &c. wee demand whether this bodie of Iesus Christ , which was in the Apostles stomackes sweat any droppes of bloud , eyther was by the Souldiers apprehended and buffeted : for , if he sweat , was apprehended and buffeted vnder the formes , and in the stomackes of the Apostles , hee was alreadie passible vnder them ; yea , and wee must also place vnder the same formes , the Souldiers that buffeted him : but if vnder those formes hee sweat not , neyther was apprehended nor buffeted , then was there at the selfe same time one Iesus Christ suffering , and one Iesus Christ not suffering : and consequently which was not our Sauiour . For it was by his sufferings that he was our Sauiour . 27 How doth this saying of the Church of Rome agree : That betweene the Priests hands there is roundnesse , and nothing round : colour , and not coloured : quantity , and nothing that hath quantitie ? And indeede if the Consecrated Host be round , and this Host be the body of Iesus Christ , it followeth in good Sylogisme , that some body of Iesus Christ is round . But if the Conclusion be false , so must also one of the propositions be . Wee therefore demand which of the two it is . 28 Also when Victor the third was poysoned in a Challice : and Henry the seauenth , Emperour , in an Host , we demand what it was that was poysoned : Saying that it was Bread and Wine , you deny the Transubstantiation : Saying , it was the body of Iesus Christ that was poysoned , you doe prophane it : Saying , that it was the accidents , the colour and measures that were impoysoned , it were not onely to mocke at it , but also to make the accidents Subiects of the substance : And all this miracle is onely to kill a Pope and a good Emperour . 29 Sith also the Church of Rome doth hold , that the body of the Lord is fully whole in euery part of the consecrate Host : doth she not by consequent say , that the point of the holy Pen-knife that pricked the Host , where-out sprang drops of bloud , pricked Iesus Christ in all parts of his body ? For , that Iesus Christ glorified can yet receiue wounds , is but a small matter in regard of beleeuing that a Pen-knife could at one onely blow hit in 10. thousand places of one selfe-body . 30 Wee also demand , sith the Church of Rome doth hold that it is no consecration , vnlesse the Priest haue an intent to consecrate , how the people that is there to adore the Host , may know whether the Priest had an intent to consecrate , or to doe as the Church of Rome doth , for feare of Idolatrie in adoring the Bread that is not consecrated ? 31 Also whether the aduice of Pope Adrian , supported by the Councell of Constance , ought heerein to be followed , which willeth not that they should adore the Host simply , but conditionally , in saying to himselfe : I doe adore thee , if thou be Christ , for that is to adore at all aduentures . 32 Againe , if Iesus Christ after the Eucharist had reserued some Hosts ( for hee might , and it is not credible , but that if a loafe broken into so many pieces , there yet remayned some crummes ) vvee demand therefore whether these reserued Hosts were also crucified the next day : or else whether Iesus Christ at one and the same time were suffering vpon the Crosse , and not suffering vnder the formes : on the Crosse in one place , and without the Crosse in another : dead in the Sepulchre , and aliue in the Pixe : for if hee had beene crucified in the Pixe , they must also haue layde in the same Pixe , the Crosse , the Souldiers , the Speare , and the Crowne , &c. Now if this Crosse be not vnder the Host , and yet Iesus Christ is there crucified , it followeth that he shall be there crucified without a Crosse , and smitten without a stroke . 33 Whether in the sixt Chapter of Iohn , in these words , If you drinke not my bloud , you shall haue no life , the Eucharist be spoken of . For if it be not there spoken of , how commeth it that the Doctors of the Romish Church doe alleadge this Chapter and this verse for their realtie and corporall eating ? but if it be there spoken of , why doe they depriue the people of life by taking away the Cup ? It is to no purpose heere to alleadge the concomitance , for he that taketh the bloud in the Host drinketh not : now Iesus Christ saith expresly , that if wee drinke not his bloud , wee shall not haue life . 34 Againe , in as much as it is manifest impietie to oppose our selues against Gods ordinance , vvee demaund how the Councell of Constance can excuse it selfe : which in the 13. Session confesseth , that Iesus Christ instituted and administred the Sacrament vnder both kindes : and that in the Primitue Church the faithfull receiued both kindes : and yet neuerthelesse complayneth , that in some parts of the world some did rashly presume that the Christian people ought to receiue the Sacrament vnder both kindes . That is to say , that it is rashnesse to desire to imitate Iesus Christ . And it saith , that * the custome to deliuer it vnder but one kinde , being by reason brought in , ought to be holden for a Law : It also declareth all such as shall contradict it to be Heretickes , and grieuously punishable , but by the Secular power . Doe they not heere confesse , that the Gospell and the Primitiue Church , are opposite to the Church of Rome at this day ? and presume to be wiser then Iesus Christ , and ranke him among Heretickes and men punishable ? 35 Whether the Popes pretended power to giue and to take away Kingdomes , and to dispence vvith Subiects for their Oath of Alleageance , be by Diuine right , or whether it be but an humane order or pollicie onely . 36 Wee also demand , whether the Pardons that the Pope giueth vpon condition to commit some notable wickednesse , be auaileable : as when in the yeeres 1588. and 1589. he granted seauen yeeres of Pardon to all that would ioyne with the holy Vnion , and band themselues against their Prince , yet hee a Catholicke Romane . 37 Wherefore the people are so forward in going to the Iubile at Rome , to purchase the great Pardons , considering that at all times they may obtayne full pardon , and sixe or seauen hundred thousand yeeres of Indulgences to spare . 38 If a man , needing but tenne thousand yeeres of Pardon , purchaseth an hundred thousand , what shall become of the fourescore and tenne thousand that remaine ? for this cause there are at * Rome some Churches , where a man may in one day purchase full pardon for all sinne , and eighteene or twentie thousand yeeres of Pardons ouer-plus : what shall become of this surplussage and ouer-plus of Indulgences , besides the full remission ? Doth the Pope pardon the payne of future sinnes , and giue Indulgences of prouision ? 39 Aboue all the rest , sith the Pope vaunteth himselfe to haue in the Treasurie of the Church all the sufferings and super-aboundant labours of the Saints , Monkes and Martyrs which hee conuerteth into payment , for the punishment due to others , distributing them by his Indulgences ; wee demand : 1. Who laid vp these sufferings of the Saints in the Popes Treasurie ? 2. When began this distribution ? 3. How shall wee be assured that God will receiue them in payment for vs ? 4. And wherefore receiue other payments , considering that the death of Christ Iesus is a payment sufficient ? 5. Doth Iesus Christ giue to any man power to pay a debt alreadie fully acquitted ? 6. Hath the Pope also in the Treasurie of the Church , the paines and labours of Noah , of Abraham , of Iacob , &c. 7. And vpon what consideration did not the high Priests vnder the Law distribute them to the faithfull in their dayes ? or why neither Iesus Christ , nor his Apostles , neyther their Disciples in all the first ages after Iesus Christ neuer distributed any Indulgences to the dead ? 9. Neyther celebrated any Iubile . 10. Neyther established any priuiledged Altars , where-vpon whosoeuer can procure the saying of certayne Masses , shall fetch one soule which so euer he will out of Purgatorie . 11. Neyther granted Bulls to free any soules out of purgatorie ? 12. Neyther tyed Remission of sinnes to a certaine place , where the Pardons are laid vp . 13. Neyther gaue out hallowed graines , or Agnus Dei , seruing for the remission of sinnes . Is all this now done , because the Popes are more full of Inuentions then the Apostles ? or that God is now more liberall then heretofore ? 40 Whether the Pope hath power to giue to some a higher degree of glory in heauen then to other some ? If he haue this power wee demand where , or when God gaue it him ? If he haue it not , why doth he attribute it to himselfe , as Innocent the third in his Bull Ad liberandam , which is in the end of the Counsell of Lateran , where he pomiseth an augmentation or encrease of glory to those that will goe to the holy warre : but to such as will not goe in person , but send a man at their owne charge , he giueth them no more but Remission of all their sinnes . As likewise the last Councell of Lateran , in the ninth and tenth Sessions , attributeth to Leo the tenth , that he hath all power in heauen and in earth : as also doth the Booke of sacred Ceremonies , lib. 1. Sect. 7. cap. 6. 41 Whether the Pope and Church of Rome can at this day make any Articles of faith : If they can , where is the authoritie that God hath giuen them ? If they cannot , wherefore did Leo the tenth in the Bull Exurge Domine , ioyned to the last Councell of Lateran , insert this among the Heresies of Luther , That he said , that the Pope and Church of Rome can make no Articles of faith ? 42 Whether the second Councell of Nice spake well in saying , that Images were equiualent with the Gospell , and that we must worship them . Also that we may paint Angels , because they be corporall : that a Temple without Images is nought worth : and that of all Heresies it is the greatest to be an enemie to Images . 43 Whether the sixe and seauen Councels , condemning Pope Honorius of Heresie , and the Councell of Constance condemning Pope Iohn , the 23. for denying heauen and Hel , and teaching that the soules are mortall ; did beleeue that the Pope cannot erre in faith : It skilleth not whether these Councels were well or ill enformed : onely wee demaund whether they did beleeue that the Pope cannot erre in faith , as they teach at this day . 44 1. When the Pope began to weare three Crownes . 2. To preach no more . 3. To be called God vpon earth , and the Diuine Maiestie . 4. And King and Prince of all the earth . 5. To dispence with oathes and vowes made vnto God. 6. To permit marriages within the degrees prohibited by the word of God , as of the first with the second degree . 7. Not to drinke the Wine out of the Challice , but to sucke it out with a Reed . 8. To be adored . 9. To put whom hee list into the ranke of Saints , appointing them their feasts , &c. 45 Whether the Popes Excommunications , cast out against a whole estate for pecuniary matters , and ciuill pretensions , are of any force : and whether they that die in such estate , during their Excommunication , be for euer damned . Also what is the meaning of those words spoken to Saint Peter , kill and eate : and whether the same be also spoken to the Pope . 46 For how much were the voyces of the Cardinals bought in the election of a new Pope , in the first age after Iesus Christ ? Also whether a Prince that hath spent three or foure hundred thousand Crownes to procure a fauourable Pope , may presume that all this corruption and these mercenary suffrages , were guided by the Spirit of God : or whether a Pope thus purchased cannot erre in faith ? 47 To what a rate are the taxes of absolutions and dispensations of the Chancerie and Penitentiarie of Rome now raised . For we haue the Taxe printed at Paris , by authority of the Court , in the yeere 1520. when all this Marchandise was farre better cheape : for hee that had laine with his Mother , or with his Gossip , paid for his Letters of Absolution fiue grosses . He that had slaine his Father or Mother seauen grosses : and he that had falsified the Apostolical Letters eighteene grosses . And a Priest that had cut off his owne priuities seauenteene grosses : But now they pay all in Duccats of the Chamber . And the dispensations for the neerest degrees in marriage are not granted but to people of calling , and such as are of abilitie : as the same Taxe doth set it downe , fol. 23. 48 Whether is it greater offence in a Priest to be married , or to commit whoredome secretly , and which of the two should we most mislike ? 49 Vpon what sinnes doth the Priest impose greatest penance , vpon the blaspheamer of God , or vpon him that miscalleth the Pope ? vpon the Adulterer or vpon him that eateth flesh vpon Good-Friday ? And what is the reason that euery Bishop may absolue sinnes committed against the Law of God : but trespasses committed against the Papall Sea , as hindering such as goe to Rome for Pardons ; or intrusion into a benefice , are matters past the Bishops reach , and reserued to his Holinesse . Hath the Popes authoritie now gotten the vpper hand of the Law of God ? 50 VVhereof grew the Custome , practised euen to this time , vpon the day of the Popes Coronation , to make him sit on a hollow Chayre [ called the Chayre of Easement ] and vvhen ceased the custome of handling his Holinesse priuities vpon that day ? 51 Whether the Pope did well in establishing the publicke Stewes at Rome , whereinto the Prelates repayre openly and with all liberty ? 52 Where remayned the soules of the Fathers of the old Testament from Christs Resurrection vntill his Ascension ? 53 And sith the Church of Rome placeth the Infants Limbe vnder the earth , where shall it be when the earth shall haue no more being ? 54 VVhether wee must keepe faith giuen to Heretikes ? 55 Whether it be well done to say , Our Father which art in Heauen , before the Image of a Saint , as now adayes they doe : and the Catechisme of the Tridentine Councell , doth allow it . 56 Againe , in that there were diuers Popes at one time , and that the strongest bare it away : how can they proue that the strongest was the most lawfull ? for if he were not so , then their succession must haue beene often interrupted : and those that followed were the Successors of vsurping Popes , being chosen by Cardinals , created by the Pope that went before , vvho being no lawfull Pope , had no iust authoritie to create Cardinals . 57 Sith Iesus Christ speaking of the time that shall goe before the Iudgements saith that then there shall be no Faith vpon earth : we demand whether then the Church of Rome shall be pure in the Faith , and shall not erre in any point , but shall yeeld a visible lustre . 57 Againe , sith the Pope may , whether by Iurisdiction ( as some doe hold ) or in manner of suffrage , fetch soules out of Purgatorie , why doth he not fetch them all out ? wherefore doth hee permit Infants to linger many hundred yeeres in a burning fire , though hee be able to pull them out ? 58 Whether it be to be found in the Word of God that the Bishop may absolue some certaine sinnes which the Priest cannot absolue : and whether there be any sinnes which the Pope onely may absolue , and are tearmed Cases reserued : also when this custome began . 59 Wee also demaund , vpon what authoritie the Church of Rome is founded : and how we may be assured that there is one Church in the world , and that the Church of Rome is this true Church . For the proofe hereof , the Doctors of the Romish Church cannot produce any testimonie out of the holy Scripture . For , in as much as they say that it is the Church that giueth authoritie to the Scripture , it appeareth , that this Church cannot be founded vpon the Scripture , and that the Scripture cannot conferre any authoritie vnto it . The foundation and support of a house cannot be founded vpon the house . 60 Whether it standeth with the Holinesse of him that tearmeth himselfe the Vicar of Iesus Christ , to suffer the Iewes at Rome , which beleeue that Iesus Christ was a seducer and deceiuer , and there to permit them the free exercise of their Religion ; and yet to condemne to the fire those that say there is no other Mediator but Iesus Christ , neyther any other propitiatorie Sacrifice but his death . 61 Also , sith in the Church of Rome there are many reliques euidently false and ridiculous : As at Saint Iohn Lateran in Rome , the fore-skinne of Iesus Christ . At Court-Chiuernie neere Bloys , the breath of Ioseph . At Burgos in Spaine , the hayre and nayles of a wodden Crucifixe , &c. Wee demand what marke they can giue vs , whereby to discerne the true from the false , and what mooued these our Masters thus to abuse the poore people . 62 Whether wee may beleeue the Monkes which make their vaunts to doe more then God commaundeth : considering that God will be serued with all our heart and all our strength : is there any man that can do more then that which he doth with all his strength ? 63 Againe , in as much as the Pope permitteth no man to preach , without his vocation from him , eyther mediately or immediately : Wee would gladly know , whether for the reprouing of the Popes abuses , it be requisite to be authorized by the Pope himselfe : also whether we may hope that euer the Pope will giue any man charge to reproue him . 64 How doth this opinion of the Church of Rome , that Infidels and Heathen doe worke meritorie deeds , which they tearme merits of Congruitie , agree with this of Saint Paul , Rom. 24. v. 23. That all that is not of faith is sinne : Be there , in the iudgement of the Church of Rome , meritory sinnes ? Can people , destitute of the Spirit of God , doe any good worke , considering that the Apostle Saint Paul witnesseth , that our selues cannot so much as thinke a good thought : and that it is God that worketh within vs both the will and the deede at his good pleasure , 2 Cor. 3. Phil. 2.13 . FINIS . A NEW CHALLENGE to all Papists , in foure and twentie Popish Articles , by a learned Diuine now liuing , and ready to iustifie the same , if any Papist shall accept the Condition . 1 IF any Papist can shew mee any approued Father or Councell before Saint Augustines dayes , which testifieth , that the Bookes of Tobith , Iudith , Wisdome , Ecclesiasticus ; the first and second of Maccabees are Canonicall Scripture , I yeeld to Poperie : If on the contrarie he will promise to become Protestant , if I can shew him an approued Father or Councell , before S. Augustines dayes , which testifieth that they are not Canonicall . 2 If any Papish can shew mee any approued Father or Councell within 1000. yeeres after Christ , which testifieth , that any Latine translation is to be preferred before , or equalled with the Hebrew and the Greeke , I yeeld to Poperie : if on the contrarie he will promise to become Protestant , if I can shew him any approued Father or Councell , within that time , which teacheth , that the Hebrew and the Greeke are to be preferred before whatsoeuer Latine translation . 3 If any Papist can shew me any approued Father , or Councell , within 1000. yeeres after Christ , vvhich taught ; that it was vnlawfull to translate the Bible into the knowne languages of the common people , I yeeld to Poperie : if on the contrarie hee will promise to become Protestant , if I can shew him by approued Fathers or Councels , that in the best ages of the Church it was thought profitable and commendable to haue the Scripture so translated . 4 If any Papist can shew me any approued Father or Councell , within 1000. yeeres after Christ , which held it vnlawfull for the people of God to reade the Scriptures in their Mother tongue , I yeeld to Poperie : If on the contrarie he will promise to become Protestant , if I can shew him out of approued Fathers or Councels , that in the best ages of the Church they might lawfully haue read them . 5 If any Papist can shew mee any approued Father or Councell , within 600. yeeres after Christ , vvhich teacheth ; that common prayers ought to be made in a language vnknowne to the common people , I yeeld to Popery : if on the contrary , he will become Protestant , if I can shew him by approued Fathers or councels , that common prayer should be made in a knowne language . 6 If any Papist can shew me any approued Father or Councell , within 1000. yeeres after Christ , ( except Saint Augustine onely ) which teacheth ; that there are but three commandements in the former Table , seauen in the latter , I yeeld to Poperie : If on the contrary he will promise to become Protestant , if I can shew him by Fathers or Councels , that there are foure Commaundements in the former Table , and sixe in the latter . 7 If any Papist can shew mee any approued Father or Councell , within 1000. yeeres after Christ , that it was lawfull to picture God the Father , I yeeld to Popery : if on the contrary hee will promise to become Protestant , if I can shew him approued Fathers or Councels which thought it vnlawfull to picture him . 8 If any Papist can shew me any approued Father or Councell , within 1000. yeeres after Christ , which taught that Latria might be giuen to Images , I yeeld to Popery : If on the contrary he will promise to become Protestant , if I can shew him an approued Father or Councell , within that time , which taught that Latria should not be giuen to Images . 9 If any Papist can shew me any approued Father or Councell , within 1000. yeeres after Christ , which speaking of Sacraments , named seauen onely , and neyther moe or fewer , I yeeld to Popery : if on the contrarie , he will promise to become Protestant , if I can shew him an approued Father or Councell , within that time , who names no moe but two , to wit , Baptisme and the Lords Supper . 10 If any Papist can shew me any approued Father or Councell , within 1000. yeeres after Christ , vvhich teacheth that women may baptise , I yeeld to Poperie , if on the contrary he will promise to become Protestant , if I can shew him an approued Father or Councell , which absolutely forbad women to baptise . 11 If any Papist can shew me any approued Father , or Councell , within 1000. yeeres after Christ , which teacheth ; that it is vnlawfull for any , saue the Minister or Priest , who consecrates , to drinke of the Sacramentall Cup , I yeeld to Popery : If on the contrary he will promise to become Protestant , if I can shew him an approued Father or Councell , within that time , which held it sacriledge not to drinke of the Cup , hauing eaten before of the Bread. 12 If any Papist can shew me any approued Father , or Councell , within 1000. yeeres after Christ , which forbad Communicants to receiue with their hands the Sacrament of the Lords Supper , I yeeld to Popery : If on the contrary he will promise to become Protestant , if I can shew him out of approued Fathers or Councels , that within that time , it was vsually deliuered into their hands . 13 If any Papist can shew me any approued Father or Councell , within 600. yeeres after Christ , which called the Sacrament , their Lord and their God , I yeeld to Popery : If on the contrary , he will promise to become Protestant , if I can shew him an approued Father or Councell , which speaking hereof , cals it panem Domini , not panem Dominum , the bread of the Lord , not , Bread , his Lord. 14 If any Papist can shew me any approued Father or Councell , within 600. yeeres after Christ , which held it lawfull for a Christian at Communion time to stand by , and looke on , though he partaked not thereof , I yeeld to Popery : If on the contrary he will promise to become Protestant , if I can shew him out of approued Fathers or Councels , within that time , that slanders by were required to depart , or else , to draw neare and communicate . 15 If any Papist can shew me any approued Father or Councell , within 1000. yeeres after Christ , which taught , that a man may dine of a fasting day , I yeeld to popery : If on the contrary he will promise to become Protestant , if I can shew him out of approued Fathers Councels , that the constant practise of the Church was , to fast till night . 16 If any Papist can shew me any approued Father or Councell , within 1000. yeeres after Christ , vvhich taught , that a Minister , or Priest ( as they call him ) sinnes more grieuously if he marry , then if he play the fornicator abroad , or if he keep a whore at home , I yeeld to Popery : If on the contrary he will promise to become Protestant , if I can shew him out of an approued Father , or Councell within that time , that it was held much worse for a Minister or Priest , to play the whoremaster , then to marry . 17 If any Papist can shew me any approued Father or Councell , within 1000. yeeres after Christ , vvhich was of opinion , that a man who had vowed chastitie , was not guiltie of breaking his vow by whoring , but onely by marrying , I yeeld to popery . If on the contrarie he will promise to become Protestant , if I can shew him out of an approued Father or Councell , that by whoring , Votaries were guiltie of breaking their vow of chastitie , as well as if they marryed . 18 If any Papist can shew me any approued Father or Councell , within 1000. yeers after Christ , which taught that a notorious offender might be absolued from his fault before some penance was inioyned and performed by him , I yeeld to Popery : If on the contrary he will promise to become Protestant , if I can shew him out of approued Fathers or Councels , within that time , that before absolution they alwaies inioyned some penance , and ordinarily saw it performed . 19 If any Papist can shew me any approued Father or Councell , within 1000. yeeres after Christ , which held it vnseemely for men and women to sing Psalmes together in their publike assemblies , I yeeld to popery : If on the contrary he will promise to become Protestant , if I can shew him an approued Father or Councell , vvithin that compasse of time , which approued of such singing . 20 If any Papist can shew me any approued Father or Councell , within 100. yerees after Christ , vvhich ●aught , that men might vow to goe on pilgrimage , especially to Ierusalem , vvithout their Wiues consent , and goe according to their vow , I yeeld to Popery : If on the contrary , he vvill promise to become Protestant if I can shevv him , that such vowes are flat contrarie to the Scripture . 21 If any Papist can shew me any approued Father or Councell , within 500. yeeres after Christ , which writeth , that the Pope by his command called all , or any of the first foure generall Councels , I yeeld to Popery : If on the contrary , he will promise to turne Protestant , if I can shew him out of approued Fathers or Councels , within that time , that the Emperours called all those foure , by vertue of their authoritie . 22 If any Papist can shew me any approued Father or Councell , within 500. yeeres after Christ , which writes , that the Bishop of Rome was president in all those foure generall Councels , eyther in his owne person , or by his deputies , I yeeld to Popery : If on the contrary , he will promise to become Protestant , if I can shew him out of approued Fathers or Councels within that time , that other Bishops sate as presidents , in some of those foure , and in other generall Councels following , and that in their owne right . 23 If any Papist can shew me out of any approued Father or Councell , within 600. yeeres after Christ , that the Pope was not subiect vnto the Emperour , I yeeld to Popery : If on the contrary he will promise to become Protestant , if I can shew him out of approued Fathers or Councels , within that time , that the Pope was subiect vnto the Emperour , and that the Christians acknowledged none but God himselfe to be aboue the Emperour . 24 If any Papist can shew me any approued Father or Councell , within 1000. yeeres after Christ , which appropriated the name Pope to the Bishop of Rome onely , I yeeld to Popery : If on the contrary , he will promise to become Protestant , if I can shew him out of approued Fathers or Councels , that all Bishops generally , and some Elders in ancient time , were called Popes . FINIS . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A19428-e250 Mounsieur de la Forse . Notes for div A19428-e380 Concil . Trid. Sess . 7. c. 11. Innocent . 3. lib. 2. de Mist . Missae cap. 58. Efficit super ea Crueis signaculum vt per crucis virtutem omnes conatus Diabolica malignitatis effugiat , ne contra Sacerdotem vel Sacrificium aliquo modo praeualeat . Rom. 4. Rom. 4. Rom. 3. Bellarmin , lib 2 De Amiss . Gratia , cap. 18. §. dicet . Non peccat Magistratus si meretricibus certam locum vrbis incolendum attribuat , quamnis certo sciat eo loco ipsas non bene vsuras . Potest enim permittere minus malum vt maiora impediantur . Bellarmine in his fourth Booke of Christ , Cap. 11. Also the Catechisme of the last Councell of Trent , in the Article of the descention into Hell. Pag. 63. Iames 5.16 . Non elegit Deus homines quia vidit se eligendum ab eis , ipsoque boni operis fructum allaturos , & in bono perseueraturos , sed elegit vt faciat bene operantes & in bono perseuerantes . 2 Chron. 6.30 . Quorum meritis precibusque rogamus . Lib. 1. Indulgen . cap. 4. in the end of the Chapter . a Hac ratione , &c. Apostoli praeceperant secundas adire nuptias propter incontinentiam hominum . Nam secundam quidem accipere , secundum praeceptum Apostoli licitum est , secundum autem rationem veritatis verè fornicatio est , &c. * For the places oft-times appointed to the Protestants for exercise of their religion are some miles distant from their habitation . Cir. Offic. 3. Omnibus viris statuae & ad eas Thus & Cerei . Ouid. Ep. Medeae . Ardet vt ad magnos pinaea taeda deos . Cereos non clara luce accendimus , vt tu frustra calumniaris sed vt tenebras noctis hoc solatio temperemus . V. Hier. ad Euag . Cyprian . lib. 1. Epist . 3. Hier. aduersus Lucifer . Ignat. ad Magnesia . Epist . 3. Tert. de Baptismo . Aduersus Luciferianos . Tert. lib. de Baptismo . Cyp. l. 3. ep . 17. Greg. Epist . lib. 4. cap. 88. Cyp. serm . 6. de Lapsis . Ad Rusticum Nouachum . Concil . Carth. 4. Can. 37.39 . Ad Euagrium . Ad Euagrium . a Charron in his 3. truth , cap. 4. Thou beleeuest that thou readest , then art thou not a Christian , read the 3. and 4. Chapter . b Bellarmin . lib. de verba Dei non scripto . cap. 12. §. Dico secundo Scripturam , & si non est facta precipue vt sit Regula fidei esse tamen Regulam fidei , non totalem sed partialem . Here vpon let vs heare Bellarmines Confession , lib. 2 de Gratia , cap. 14. Deus constituit in predestinatione regnum dare certis hominibus quos absque vlla operum praeuisione dilexit : tamen simul constituit vt quo ad executionem via perueniendi ad Regnum essent bona opera . Bell. lib de Confirmatione cap. 8 & 13. See the Rhemists on Act. 8 Sect. 6. Nichol. Papa . Dist . 4. de Consecrat . Can. A quodam Indao . Can. de his . Caluin , Beza , Piscator . Notes for div A19428-e6430 * The Prohibition is to be seene in the Index of Bookes prohibited by the Councell of Trent , printed at Cologne by Gosuin Cholin , by authoritie from Pius the 4 and Clement the 8. * Quorum meritis precibusque regamus . Innoc. 3. lib. 3. de mist . Missae , cap. 9. Necessarium nobis est in via Sanctorum suffragium . The Carmelites haue published certaine Theses containing this priuiledge : and Caheir in his Booke entituled The furnace of the Reuerberate , maintayneth this priuiledge . Also , the Carmelite Doctors haue to the end of the Booke set and subsigned their approbation . * Pope Sextus the 5. in the yeere 1586. the 7. of May granted to the Fraternitie of the Cordelies this Priuiledge inserted into the Booke of Indulgences , conferred to that Fraternitie , printed at Paris by Iohn le Bouc . vpon Mount S. Hillary , at the signe of Diligence , in the yeere 1597. 1 Tim. 3 v. 2. Can. Poenitentialis 39 in calce Decreti . Quando mus comedit vel corredit corpus Christi &c. 2. de consecrat Si quis . Vide ibidem Glossam . Tum Cautelas Missae & Thomam . 3. quest . 8 Art. 3. Pope Innocent . 3. lib. 4. de Mister . Missae . cap. 11. Est enim hic color & sapor : quantitas & qualitas , cum nihil altervtro sit coloratum & sapidum , quantum aut quale . Stella . Fascicuius . Tempor . Na●●ler , Genebrard . 4. Auenturus , lib. 7. Pag. 598 Platinam Clem. 5. This is represented at Paris in the fore-front of the Church of Billettes . Quod libetica , questio supposito secundo Concilium Constantiense excusat simplices adorantes hostiam non consecratā si sic adorent . Ad●●●te si tu es 〈◊〉 Quod licet Christus post coenam instituerit & suis discipulis administrauerit sub vtraque specie panis & vini hoc venerabile Sacramentum , tamen hoc non obstante &c. * Ca●● in nonnullis mundi partibus quidam temerarie praesumant populum Christianum debere Sacramentum Eucharistiae sub vtraque specie suscipere , consuetudo rationabiliter introducta habenda est pro lege pertinanter asserentes , oppositum tanquam heretici arcendi sunt & grauiter puniendi , Inuocato etiam auxilio brachij secularis . * This is to be seene in the Booke of Romane Indulgences , printed at Rome , Anno. 1570. by Giulio Ac●●lto nelia Chie ● di Pietro in Vaticano la prima Dominica della quinquagesima vie Indulgentia plenaria & ottodieci milla anni & tante quarentene . In retributione iustorum salutis aeternae pollicemur augmentum . Certum est non esse in manu Ecclesiae aut Papa statuere articulos fidei . Sess 4 & 6. Dist . 6. Can. Satis est . In the Glosse of the Clementin . Cum inter Dominus Deus noster , &c. 1. Booke of sacred Ceremonies . Sect. 7 c. 6 Councell of Lateran Sess . 1. & 3. & 9. & 10. As lately against the Venitian Common-wealth . Absolutio pro eo qui matrem , sororem , &c iut commatrem carnaliter cognouit , gros 5. Sed hic tantum pro qualificatis & huiusmodi gratiae non conceduntur pauperibus . Sac. Cerem . lib. 1. Sect. 2. cap. 3. Dicitur ad Marmoream sedem quae Stercorata appellatur . And soone after , Sunt duae sedes P●rphyretice perforatae & ibi sedet Pontife● . Sect. de oratione p. 483.