The svmme of a dispvtation betweene Mr. VValker, pastor of St. Iohn Euanglists [sic] in Watling-street London, and a popish priest calling himselfe Mr. Smith, but indeed Norrice assisted by other priests and papists : held in the presence of some worthy knights, with other gentlemen of both religions. Walker, George, 1581?-1651. 1624 Approx. 70 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 23 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A14657 STC 24960.5 ESTC S2955 29592448 ocm 29592448 28014 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A14657) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 28014) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1475-1640 ; 1860:6) The svmme of a dispvtation betweene Mr. VValker, pastor of St. Iohn Euanglists [sic] in Watling-street London, and a popish priest calling himselfe Mr. Smith, but indeed Norrice assisted by other priests and papists : held in the presence of some worthy knights, with other gentlemen of both religions. Walker, George, 1581?-1651. S. N. (Sylvester Norris), 1572-1630. [44] p. Printed, [London] : 1624. Place of publication from STC (2nd ed.). Signatures: A-E⁴, F². Reproduction of original in: Union Theological Seminary (New York, N.Y.). Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. 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Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Catholic Church -- Controversial literature. 2004-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-11 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-01 Jonathan Blaney Sampled and proofread 2005-01 Jonathan Blaney Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE SVMME OF A DISPVTATION , BETWEENE Mr. VVALKER Pastor of St. Iohn Euanglists in Watling-street London ; and a popish Priest , calling himselfe Mr. Smith , but indeed Norrice , assisted by other Priests and Papists . HELD IN THE PRESENCE OF some worthy Knights ; with other Gentlemen of both Religions . Printed . 1624. The summe of a Disputation bebetweene Mr. Walker , Pastor of St Iohn Euangelists in Watling street in London : And a popish Priest , calling himselfe Mr. Smith , but indeed Norrice , assisted by other Priests and Papists ; May last 1623. held in the presence of some worthy Knights , with other Gentlemen of both Religions . The occasion of the Disputation . SIr William Harington Knight , hauing a Kinsman of the Romish Catholike Religion , by much reasoning with him , and many perswasions had brought him to wauering , so that he stood in doubt which was the true religion , and desired to be satisfied . The forenamed Priest Mr. Smith alias Dr. Norrice for the setling and hardening of him in the popish religion , told him that the Protestant Church of England vnto which he seemed to incline , had no faith , neither indeed was it any Church of Christ at all : and also challenged his kinsman Sir William Harrington to bring any Minister of the English Church whatsoeuer into any conuenient place of meeting , and he would by disputation , and by inuincible arguments proue against him before their faces , and in their hearing , that English Protestants had neither Church nor faith . Sir William Harrington did take his offer , vpon condition that he would answer to such questions as the Diuine which he would bring should propound against the Romish religion ; it was agreed ; the day and place appoynted . Whereupon Sir William requesting a reuerend Doctor of his acquaintance to take the charge vpon him ; hee being to preach in his charge vpon a necessary occasion the very day which was appointed : sent him to Mr. Walker , whom he assured him to be a man ready for such a purpose , And who at the first motion vpon a dayes warning embraced the offer , promised to come the next day to Sir William , and to attend him to the place of meeting , And Sir William requesting him to name before hand some questions opposite to the Romish religion which hee would dispute vpon against the Priests ; he gaue him these three following . 1. That the present Church of Rome is the Whore of Babylon . 2. That the Pope is Antichrist . 3. That the Popish doctrine of Peters being Bishop of Rome is a forged fable contrary to the Scriptures . These positions Sir William Harrington sent to the Priest , that he might arme himselfe for the defence : The next day Mr. Walker came to Sir Williams lodgings to dinner , and accompanied him and Sir Edward Harwood , with some other Gentlemen to a priuate house by the Thames side , where they found some Romish Catholike Gentlemen , and they said Smith with other Priests . Before they entred into disputation , Mr. Smith alias Norrice , called Master Walker a side , and desired that the disputation might be performed louingly and sweetly with all mildenesse , and without bitter words or byting speeches . Mr. Walker answered , that he desired to byte and gall no aduersary but with sound reasons , which do most commonly cut to the quicke , such as defend errors : as for other speeches , he promised for his part to be milde or sharpe , according to the behauiour of his Aduersaries . And thus they proceed to a formall manner of disputation , the one sitting downe at the one end of a Table , the other at the other end , and the auditors sitting along on both sides , and some standing about in a large vpper Parlor , But first Mr. Walker desired a Bible ▪ vnto which they might appeale , and by which testimonies of Scriptures ; which both parties alleaged might bee tried ; whereupon there were two Bibles brought , and agreed vpon ; the one a vulgar Latine , which the Counsell of Trent , and the whole Romish Church holds to be most authenticall ; the other an English Bible , for the standers by to looke vpon . Then Mr. Smith alias Norrice , begins first with an apologie for himselfe , telling the gentlemen that he had of late by reason of some bodily infirmity , beene forced to take Phisicke , and to vse a dyet drinke , and therefore if his memory should faile , or if paine in his head should force him to breake off abruptly , desired them to beare with him , and to haue him excused ; By which he seemed wisely to prouide before hand for a lesse shamefull flight , if he found the fight too hot and sharpe for him to be endured . Mr. Walker on the other side desired , that they might goe to it hand to hand , and but one speake at once for auoiding of confusion ; that the disputation might be in short syllogismes : and desired also that the Arguments & the answers might be writ downe , for preuenting all false relation and misreports afterward , and withall , did put it to the Aduersaries choyce , whether he would oppose or answer first ? Mr. Smith desired , that hee might first dispute vpon his owne questions , and promised that afterwards he would answer Mr. Walker , disputing vpon his questions : It was agreed vpon ; And thereupon he putting off his hat , and crossing his face and breast , began to speake to Mr. Walker as followeth . Mr. Smith , alias Norrice . Sir , I haue here receiued three questions from you , which you haue taken vpon you to proue by Argument , I haue here written downe , and will relate them vnto you : First you say you will proue the Pope to be Antichrist : 2. The Church of Rome to be the whore of Babylon : 3. That St. Peter was not Bishop of Rome as we hold ; These questions are such as are not fit to be named , much lesse to be disputed or answered ; they are deliuered in tearmes very vnseemely and vnmannerly : for what can be more vnfit or vnseemly then this , that you should call the holy Father the Pope Antichrist , and the Church of Rome the whore of Babylon now in these dayes , when it pleaseth the Kings Maiestie to giue the Pope that honour , as to send and sue to his holinesse for a dispensation for the marriage of thr Prince his sonne : I pray you therefore let vs haue no more of these questions , but let vs haue some other , or else propound them in other tearmes , as that the Church of Rome is not the true Church or the like : As you see I haue done , in that I haue vsed milder words in my questions : holding that you protestants in England , haue no Church nor faith . Mr. Walker . Seeing it is your pleasure thus to speake at large in loose speech , and not in strict Syllogisme , I will answer you in your kinde . First , I maruell that you are not ashamed to slaunder the Kings Maiestie with honouring of the Pope , by suing to him for dispensation , which we all know he will neuer doe ; because he hath not onely said , that he is Antichrist , but also publikely in his learned writings proued him so to be , and the Romish Church to be the whore of Babylon . I warrant you our King will marry his Son and aske the Pope no leaue , if the other party will aduenture it as well as he . It is most intollerable , that you should so boldly slaunder his Maiestie . Secondly , for the tearmes of my questions , which you call vnmannerly , they are the same which it pleaseth Gods spirit to vse in the holy Scriptures ; and his holinesse hath in his wisedome been pleased to stile the Pope and Church of Rome by the same titles , as I shall quickly proue , if you will vndertake to answer me . And therefore you are too bold to taxe Gods spirit of vnmannerlinesse : But perhaps this is a shift of yours , to put off our disputation vpon these poynts which pay you home , with a cleanely excuse of vnmannerly tearmes : yet it shall not serue your turne ; for the more vnseemly that the questions are , the more disgrace it will be to me , and the more hard taske to proue them : and to you it will be more credit and ease to defend the contrary , so that this is no excuse for you at all . Thirdly , in that you doe charge vs here at home so manifestly contrary to common sense , that we haue neither Church nor Faith , when as we beleeue and professe all holy truthes taught in the holy Scriptures , which by your selues cannot be denyed to be Gods infallible word . But I pray you let vs leaue all loose and idle discourses , and come to a strict forme of Disputation , writing downe the Arguments and answers which doe passe betweene vs. Your taske which you haue vndertaken is to proue , that we haue no Church nor Faith : let vs heare your arguments briefly . Mr. Smith . Well , that we may come quickly and closely come home to the matter , let me aske you a question , and doe you answer me , that I may ground my Arguments vpon your owne words , and I shall quickly proue against you my assertion , and make the truth of it plainely appeare . First I aske whether the true Catholike Church be visible ? M. Walker . The true Catholike Church is not visible , neither can it be seene with eyes of any mortall man on earth . M. Smith . Marke Gentlemen , he will deny this Canon : he saith the Catholike Church is not visible , which I will proue to be against all reason . Mr. Walker . Indeed if I should say that it were visible , considering it as it now is , I should speake against all reason ; For the greatest part of it being Saints in heauen are without the reach of mans eyes , and cannot be seene . Mr. Smith . You doe but equiuocate of purpose to decline all Disputation ; you know that I meane , not the Church triumphant in heauen , but the Catholike Church militant on earth . Mr. Walker . Nay , rather doe you equiuocate or worse ; for to say that the Catholike Church is militant on earth is as absurd , as to say that all mankinde , euen the whole vniuersall race of Adam are now liuing on earth , when reason and experience teach vs , that the greatest part are dead , and many also yet vnborne : I hope you know that the word Catholike , signifies vniuersall : and therefore the Catholike Church is vniuersall company of the Elect and faithfull , and includes in it euery one whosoeuer hath beene , or is , or shall be hereafter a true beleeuing member of Christ , and a●l they cannot bee seene at once on earth , because they neuer were altogether on earth . The militant number of them on earth , are the least part of them . Mr. Smith . You doe wrangle to auoyde D●sputation ; I therefore tell you ; that by the Catholi●e militant Church , I vnderstand the true Church of Iesus Christ , which all true Christians here on earth ought to heare and obey , as it is the pillar and ground of tru●h : now answer whether you hold that to be visible or inuisible ? M. Walker . I iudge of your meaning by your words , and therefore I cannot conceiue this Church which you doe speake of , to be the Catholike , that is the vniuersall Church : for euery true particular Church , in which euery true Christian doth loue , and whereof he is a member , is that which he ought to heare and to obey , because by reason of the faithfull and elect which are in it , it is the house of God , and the pillar and firmament of truth . Now euery such Church is partly visible , and partly inuisible . M. Smith . How is it visible , and how is it inuisible ? Mr. Walker . Euery such true Church hath in it elect and faithfull men , professing outwardly in word , and practise true Christian religion , who doe belong to the Catholike Church , and are true liuely members of Christ : It hath also some hypocrites and carnall professors , which doe also make an outward show and profession of christianity , but are not truely ingraffed into Christ , by vnion and communion of the Spirit , neither haue the true holy sauing Faith , and by consequent are not members of the true Catholike Church . Now the men who professe religion in the Church , and are the members of it , if we consider them as they are men , and as they practise and performe outward duties of christians , as preaching and hearing of the word , administring and receiuing the Sacraments publike outward worship and such like , they are visible : But as for the election faith , spirituall , and in word graces and deuotion in the one sort , by which they are indeed true christians , & belong to the Catholike Church : and the hipocrisie and carnall corruption lurking inwardly in the other sort , by meanes whereof , they are seperated from communion with Christ in spirit , they are things inuisible , and to be discerned spiritually , not with bodily eyes . Thus euery true Church is partly inuisible , to wit , in respect of the spirituall graces , which make men true Christians indeed ; and partly visible , to wit , in respect of the outward profession , common both to elect and reprobates , to faithfull men and hypocrites . Mr. Smith . No sooner was the answer giuen but Mr. Smith as one full of anger , protested with vehemency of words , that now he saw indeed , there was neither Church nor Faith among Protestants ; they were all so contrary among themselues , neuer agreeing together in any opinion : He affirmed to the standers by , that Doctor Whitakers , Doctor Reignolds , Mr. Perkins , and many other chiefe Protestants did euer grant , that the true Catholike Church was visible . Another Priest sitting by , scornefully repeated the name of Perkins , and spake of him as of a poore silly man , not worthy to be counted among the learned . Mr. Walker . Mr Walker moued with the falshood of the one , and the scorne of the other , first answered the scorner , that none could count Mr. Perkins silly and vnlearned , but either out of ignorance or wilfull mallice : and that he knew it to be the fashion of popish Priests , outwardly to sleight & vilifie before the people , such as do most cut and gall them . To Mr. Smith he answered , that if he would grant that Protestants haue a true Church , and the true faith , as truely as that which he affirmed of Doctor Whitakers and the rest was false , he would desire no more for the victorie : Yea ( saith hee ) if you haue read Doctor Whitakers , you know that he holds as I doe ; and that you wilfully and falsely father on him things vntrue . Mr. Smith . Mr. Smith enraged with this answer , protested what he had said was true , and the more to perswade the standers by , he added more specially , that Doctor Whitakers doth in his writings maintaine , that the whole essence of the true Church , consists onely in the true preaching of the word , and the right administration of the Sacraments which are things visible . Mr. Walker . Sir I doe not loue to contend by oathes and protestations , but by proofes . I will here write downe your wordes ( which he did , and read them in the hearing of all , and asked if hee had not truly written ? and all assented he had : Then hee proceeded thus . ) I doubt not sir , but you haue learned Logick , and doe knowe that the definition of a thing doth expresse the whole essence , and that what a man defines a thing to be , that he holds to be the essence of it : Tell me here doe you not grant this ? Mr. Smith . I doe . Mr. Walker . Well then , it must be granted , that Doctor Whitaker doth hold that to be the essence of the Church which he doth comprehend in the definition of the Church . Now his definition of the Church is Coelus electorum & fid●lum , A company of elect and faithfull men , and he proues against Bellarmine , that none can be seene with the eye to be members of the Catholike Church , because the elect onely faithfull and godly , belong to it , whose graces are inuisible , and not hypocrites and reprobates , as Bellarmine doth hold . Dare you deny this ? Mr. Smith . I am sure he holds as I said before , that the whole essence of the Church consists in true preaching of Gods word , and in administration of the Sacraments . Mr. Walker . Because I will not spend time in contesting with you ; let this be the issue before these Gentlemen : let vs send for Doctor Whitakers workes , and if I doe not shew that he doth proue against Bellarmine , that the Catholike Church is inuisible , and that this is a maine point largely disputed by him , and a maine controuersie betweene him and Bellarmine , let mee be branded with the marke of a wilfull lyer , impostore and false prophet . But if I shew it presently before them all out of his owne writings , then shall you confesse your selfe a forger and falsifier , an impostor , and a priest of Baal ; The Gentlemen all confessed that this was faire play , and desired it might bee so . Whereupon Mr. Smith began to draw backe , and shewed himselfe vnwilling , and much affraid to hazard his credit so quickly , and would gladly haue left this point , and fallen into another , But Mr. Walker proceeded on this wise and said : Gentlemen it is true , that Doctor Whitakers maintaines , that the Word truly preached , and the Sacraments rightly administred , are the certaine and infallible notes and markes , by which euery true particular Church may be discerned to bee Christs true church : and you know that the markes of a thing differ from the essence and substance of it : as the signe hanging at the dore of a Tauerne , and shewing that house to be a Tauerne , differs from the Tauerne it selfe : and the habit and Cowle of a Monke or Frier , which is the marke of his order , differs from the Monke himselfe , and is not any part of his essence . I beseech you therefore take notice of the boldnesse and impudency of popish Priests , how they can snatch here and there a speech out of our learned mens writings , without any vnderstanding of it , and thereby make show , as if they had throughly read those Authors ; yea , and can in common talke , and in titles of their printed pamphlets professe , that they haue confuted Whitakers , Reignolds , Field , Perkins , and many others , whose bookes they neuer durst reade throughly , neither haue the hardinesse to sift any of their maine arguments . I assure you , that as you see this which I say here verefied , so I finde it a common thing among them all . Mr. Smith . Mr. Smith and all his company on his side were very vnwilling to insist any longer vpon this point , & therfore answered nothing ; but presently proceeded to another question , and asked Mr. Walker Whether the whole militant Church on earth may erre ? Mr. Walker . I answer , that this question is captious and ambiguous , and cannot directly in one word negatiue or affirmatiue bee answered : my reasons are these ; First , because the whole militant Church , if such a Church may be acknowledged , is nothing but the whole number of particular Churches militant on earth ; and in diuers points they doe differ among themselues : and it is impossible for any man to finde out the iudgement of them all in euery point , as it is impossible to gather them all at once into one place . Secondly , it may bee said both that it may erre , and also that it cannot erre in diuers respects and considerations , if wee consider it by it selfe alone , as it is militant , and according to the militancy and weaknesse of it ( as I may so speake ) we grant that it may erre , and in euery particular part of it , there may bee found some errors : but if we consider it according vnto the relation and dependance which it hath vpon the Triumphant Church , and the assistance which it hath from Christ , his Prophets and Apostles , vpon whose doctrine and Scriptures it doth wholly cast it selfe , and builds all the doctrines of faith , , so it cannot erre , for in so doing it doth follow infallible guides : euen as the Apostle saith of a man regenerate and borne of God , that he cannot sinne , 1 Ioh. 3. to wit , in the maine , against the maine precepts of the Gospell , Beleeue and Repent , for he cannot fall into impenitency and infidelity , because the seede of God , euen his holy Spirit abides in him : But that he hath sinne , and doth lie if he saith he hath none , to wit , through infirmity and weakenesse of the flesh : So likewise it is truely said of the true Church , and euery part thereof , that as it builds onely on the Scriptures , and doth vrge no doctrine of faith of necessity to be beleeued , but such as the Scriptures teach : So it cannot erre no more then the Scripture , for this is a work of infallible faith . But because all men liuing in the Church ; haue as infirmities of life , so imperfections in iudgement , and some peruersnesse in affections , and therefore may faile in conceiuing some doubtfull and obscure places of Scripture amisse , or in cleauing not so close to the word as they ought , or following their owne affections to much , as we see in all the writings of the Fathers , and in the most part of the generall Councells , in this respect we truly say , that the Church militant may erre . Mr. Smith . You doe what you can to keepe off , and not to come to the point ; but I will bring you to it doe what you can if you will answer me this question . Whether the who●e militant Church of England may erre ? Mr. Walker . I answer to this as before , that it is a captious and ambiguous confused question , and that this militant Church as the rest may erre and not erre , according to the former diuers respects and considerations . Mr. Smith . Whether is the Church of England so tyed to the word of God , and such helps , that it cannot erre nor misinterpret the Scriptures in fundamentall points of Faith ? Mr. Walker . I answer , that as in all other particular Churches so in the particular Churches of England , there is a double voice , one of the Church , as shee is the true Church of Christ , and that is both her voice commending the Scriptures , onely to bee beleeued as necessary for sauing knowledge and true faith , and also the voice of GOD plainely speaking in the Scriptures , in this respect she is so tyed that shee cannot erre . There is another voice which the Church vttereth not immediately from her selfe , by the Commission which Christ gaue vnto her ; but by her fraile members , suppose a Synode and assembly of Pastors taking vpon them to determine things doubtfull out of obscure places of Scripture , and to make them more plaine then the Scriptures doe vpon which they build ; This voyce may erre , and by it the Church may be said after a sort to erre in some part , though not wholly , nor finally , nor obstinately : because if it bee a true Church , it will not absolutely and peremptorily determine that which the Scriptures leaue doubtfull : neither will it persist alwayes in the errors if they be deadly , but either the whole number , or at least some in the number of the Church will renounce it ; and so the whole shall not erre finally . This is my answer ; But because I would giue you some ground whereon to fasten , that we may not spend time in questions , but may come to disputation , which is the intent of our meeting ; I will grant you thus much , that the Church of England may erre for a time , and after some manner in a point fundamentall or necessary to saluation . Ground what you can vpon this , and let vs haue some disputation by way of strict Arguments and Syllogismes . Mr. Smith I haue enough out of your owne confession to proue that you haue neither Church nor Faith. And I pray you Gentlemen to marke and take notice , he grants that the Protestant Church of England may erre in a fundamentall point , if in one , then as well in another , and so from one to another till it erre in all , and so haue no faith at all , and hauing no faith it is no Church . Thus you see I haue proued that Protestants haue neither church nor Faith : and therefore I beseech you all take heede of them , who by their owne confession haue forsaken the Catholicke Church and faith , and doe wilfull runne into all damnable errors and heresies , and lead men into destrustion . You see how plainely they are conuinced ; and I appeale to you all , Iudge whether I haue not plainely proued that which I did vnder take , to wit , that they haue neither Church nor Faith , and so are in a most damnable estate . Mr. Walker . To these words vttered , with great vehemency and action of the hands and whole body , Mr. Walker standing vp , and putting of his Hat made this reply : First ( saith hee ) though it was your motion , and my desire that I might talke mildly without bitter words : yet seeing hee first breakes out so vnreasonably , and goe about by bitter and reproachfull words and gestures to beare downe the truth : I must craue leaue of these Gentlemen to answer you in your kinde , though it be very vnseemly that in my manner of answer , you may behold the vnseemlynesse of your disputing : and then with like words , voice , and gestures , he answered to this effect : First , where as you say that you haue proued , that which you did vndertake ▪ you shew your selfe without wit or reason : for you are not able to bring one word of reason by way of argument , till I doe lay you a ground , as all here doe see ; and therefore if you seeme to proue any thing , you must thanke me for it , who doe yeeld more then you can proue : Secondly , your argument is without all forme , order , or reason ; for it doth not follow , that euery Church which may erre in one point , may erre in all points at once , and fall wholly away , because God hath promised , that the gates of Hell shall not preuaile against his Church so farre as to put it quite from the foundation , though it may Build stubble and straw vpon the foundation , by erring in some points for a time . Thirdly , though it bee not impossible for the true Church to erre yea though it were granted that it might wholly fall away from all faith : yet it doth not there vpon follow that it doth so , and that now presently it hath no faith , neither is a Church at all : Thus Gentlemen you see how I haue proued this man by his owne speech to bee without wit , reason modesty or honesty , roauing without wit or reason , railing without modesty , and falsly charging vs against all shew of honesty : But I feare me that this kind of Frier-like preaching , is odious and distastfull to all iudicious beholders : I pray you let vs dispute orderly , and according to art : And if you be able to dispute Scholler-like , let vs haue one argument framed into a short Syllogisme . Mr. Smith . I warrant you I can make Syllogismes to your small comfort . Mr. Walker And I doubt not but I shall as easily answer them to your small ease . Mr. Smith . Then he with much adoe vttered this Syllogisme , and caused it to be written downe . That Church which hath not the word of God truely preached , and infallibly deliuered vnto it , is not the true Church of Christ : But the Protestant Church is such , Ergo. Mr. Walker . I distinguish vpon the Maior proposition : For if you meane the word truly preached , and infallibly deliuered in euery particular point , so that it can neuer erre any manner of way in any such point . I denie the Maior vpon example and warrant from the Apostles : and doe hold that a true Church may for a time haue the word not truly deliuered , and infallibly in some point , and yet be a true Church : But if you vnderstand a totall erring in all points , and a preaching of the whole word vntruly : then is your Minor most false , for Protestant Churches doe not preach the whole word vntruly at any time . Now proue you which of your propositions you please : For in these senses which I haue named both are false . Mr. Smith . The Maior is so manifest that it needs no proofe , neither can be denyed , for how is it possible for any Church to be a true Church which hath not the word truly preached in all points . Mr. Walker . It is to mee a manifest vntruth , and therefore proue it true if you can ; if you cannot , then yeeld the cause , that is false . Mr. Smith . I proue it thus . That Church which hath not the word of God truly preached , but falsely translated , is no true Church . Such is the Church of England . Ergo. Mr. Walker . This is no proofe of that proposition which I denyed , and which you did vndertake to proue , and therefore you shew your selfe ignorant in disputing and doe commit that fallacy against the rules of Logicke which wee call Ignorationem elenchi . Mr. Smith It is a true Syllogisme , and proues the maine matter in controuersie , to wit , that you haue no true Church . Mr. Walker But the thing which you were to proue , was that the Church which hath not Gods word truly preached , and infallibly deliuered in euery point at all times , is not a true Church . This because you cannot tell how to proue as you did vndertake , therefore you flee to another new Argument , to which also I doe answer , as I did to the former : First , that the Maior proposition is false : For a Church which hath the word of God falsely or erroneously translated in some parts , and so not truely preached in euery part , may be a true Church . Secondly , if you meane falsely translated , and not truely preached of purpose and wilfully , then the Minor is false , for though the translation of the Church of England may faile and misse of the true meaning of diuers places , ( as all the best translations , especially the vulgar Latine approued by the Romish Church doth , ) yet it is not so erroneously translated of purpose , neither doe all the Preachers thereof build , certainly on such erronious and false translations , but many doe discerne them , and preach and teach the true oppositions ; and the Church alloweth them so to doe , when they shew good reasons for their doings , from the circumstances of the Text. Mr. Smith . But I will shew plainly by diuers Examples , that you haue diuers places of Scripture falsly translated in your translation of set purpose , and wilfully contrary to the words of the Hebrew Text , contrary also to the Greeke and Latine , receiued in all ages and Churches heertofore . Mr. Walker . You threaten largely in wordes which are but winde ; but indeede you can neuer performe that which you say . Let vs see if you bee able to shew any part of our translation , wherein one word is falsely translated of purpose : I desire no more but to ioyne a Combat with you hand to hand about the Hebrew text , and about the truth of our translation , and the agreement of it with the Originall . Mr. Smith . I shall quickly proue what I say , and what you require . First , I haue a plaine example , Malachi 2. 7. where your translators read the words thus , The Priests lippes should keepe knowledge , and they should seeke the Law at his mouth . First this translation is false , because it is contrary to the Hebrew text , wherein the words are Iishmeru they shall keepe , and Iebakshu they shall seek : and not , they should keepe , nor , they should seeke . Also it is contrary to the Greeke , wherein the words are , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and to the Latine translation of St. Hierome , which is Custodient , and requirent . Secondly , it teacheth heresie and false doctrine , namely ; that Gods Priests , & they who sit in Moses Chayre , may erre , contrary to the words of Christ who commands his Disciples to heare all such as sit in Moses Chayre , because they shall not erre , but their lips shall preserue knowledge . Thirdly , it is thus corrupted of purpose , to gainsay the infallibility of the Pastors of the Church , who doe succeed in the Chayre of the Apostles , and to blinde the peoples eyes , that they may not see the certainty and infallibility of iudgement in the Priests and Pastors who sit in Moses Chaire , & how they are bound to seek the Law at their mouth : but may follow any vpstart teachers which separate from the Catholicke Church . Thus you see Gentlemen all , how plainely I haue proued that the Church of England hath of purpose corrupted the Scriptures , and therefore is no true Church . Mr. Walker . Indeed if that which you say were true , you did speake something to the purpose ; but great words and protestations cannot make truth to be falshood , nor falshood truth , as for the Example which you cite out of our English translation . Mal. 2. 7. I deny it to be contrary to the Hebrew text : yea I will easily proue both from the Hebrew words , which you haue here shewed in the Hebrew Interlinear Bible , and also from the whole scope , and all circumstances of the place , that the English is the best translation , & more perfect then either the Greek or Latine . First , though the Hebrew words Iishmeru & Iebakshu be of the Futuretense , yet this doth not proue : that they should be translated so in our tongue , because you cannot but know , if you haue any skill in the Hebrew tongue , that the future tense in Hebrewe , sometime simply , and sometime by meanes of Vau conuersiue signifies time , either perfectly or imperfectly past ; somtimes it stands for the Optatiue , Potentiall , and Subiunctiue moode ; therefore our translation is not differēt , nor irregular from the Hebrewe , which is the originall . Secondly , it was neuer the purpose of Gods spirit in that place , or by these words to teach , that the Lawe should alwayes bee taught truly and infallibly by the Priests and Pastors who succeede Moses , or the Apostles locally in the Church by a continued succession : for that is a falshood contrary to the experience of all ages : this very place confutes it most euidently ; For the Priests vnto whome the Prophet here speaks in these places were Leuites , and succeeded Aaron in the Priesthood : and yet they were departed out of the way they caused many to fall in the law by their corrupt glosse , and their abuse of the Couenant of Leui. As it appeares in the next words immediately following : yea some of them had sacrificed to Idolls , as Iosephus shewes in his History of those times , and therfore the Lord threatens to corrupt their seed by cutting off the male progeny , and to cast the dung of their Sacrifice in their faces : so that the Priesthood of Phineas should by a sister married into the Tribe of Iudath to one of Dauids line fall to Christ , who desended of her , and hee should take it away to himselfe for euer as is intimated in the 3. verse of the same Chapter . So then it is no heresie but Gods holy truth , that Priests succeeding in the place and office of Aaron and Moses may erre and haue erred : Moset his Chaire in which the Scribes and Pharisies did sit , was the seat wherein they were wont to read the Law of Moses , and the expositions of the Prophets to the people , and therfore what they there did teach was true , and Christ commanded his Disciples to obey it : But in their owne glosses and traditions they erred damnably , & made void Gods Law , and their Doctrine our Sauiour called soure leauen , and warned his Disciples to beware of it . Thirdly , they who translate the words thus : The Priests lippes shall keepe knowledge , and they shall seeke the Law at his mouch : Did neuer intend to shew thereby , that God did make here a promise , that so it shall bee for euer , but onely to shew that this is the Law and Commandement of God , teaching what the Priests and People should doe and ought to doe , euen as in the Commaudement , Thou shalt haue no other Gods but me . The words doe not promise , that the Israelites should alwaies acknowledge and worship Iehouah the true God alone , ( for the euent shewed the contrary within 40. payes ) but shew what they ought to doe ; but the words are a coms mandement recited , not a promise made , the wordof the 4. verse shew . Therefore our English translation is most perfect of all , shewing not onely the sense and meaning of the Law , but also how it did binde the Priest and People , and how they ought to obey it . Thus you see how your example doth make for vs against your selfe . Mr. Smith . Mr. Smith finding worse successe then hee expected in this example , and perceiuing the standers by to be well satisfied with this answer , flees presently to another , to wit , Dan. 4. 27. where in our English Translation the words run thus . Breake off thy sins by righteousnes , & thine iniquities by shewing mercy to the poore : Here saith he , the word in the Chaldee , which is the Originall , Perok , signifies to Redeeme , and so the Greeke and Latine Translations render it ; but your Translations of purpose , contrary to all the ancient receiued Translators , and to the nature of the word in the originall , do translate it , Breake off , and that of purpose to oppose the true doctrine of satisfaction & merit by good works . Therefore your Church is a false Church . Mr. Walker . Howsoeuer other translations run , I am sure our English is in sense most sound & Orthodoxe . That translation which counsels Nabuchadnezar to redeeme his sins by righteousnesse , is ( as the words doerun ) senslesse and against all reason ; For God neuer appointed that mens sinnes should bee redeemed ; but his will is , that they should bee mortified and destroyed , and he so hates them , that hee cannot leaue them vnpunished , but will haue iust vengeance to be executed for them , eithervpon the sinner himselfe , or on his surety . If you vnderstand the words ( as you seeme to vrge them ) that Nabuchadnezar a wicked Heathen King , should by his own righteousnesse redeeme himselfe from his sins ; you doe make Daniel a teacher of heresie and blasphemie : for it is no lesse then blasphemy , to hold that an Idolatrous Pagan may by his owne righteousnesse redeeme himselfe : it makes void the promise of Christ the Redeemer . But our English translation doth teach excellent truth ; to wit , that a true conuert ought not only to beleeue in Christ , and by faith to put on the Robe of Righteousnesse , that therin he may appeare righteous before God , and comely in his sight ; but also to breake off his sinfull course of life , and neuer to goe on any longer in any knowne sinne , as Papists doe , in hope of absolution by confession and pennance . And therefore I doubt not , but the word in the originall will be more agreeable to our translation , when wee come to see and examine it , if you be pleased to let me see your Hebrew Bible . Mr. Smith . Loe here in the originall the word is in the Caldee Perok , which signifies onely to redeeme , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 as the Greeke translation renders it : and the Latine Redeeme . Mr. Walker . I thought that wee should finde it thus , when we came to the tryall ; dare you here before these Gentlemen put on such an impudent face , as to affirme without feare or shame that this Parak signifies only to redeeme and nothing else ? Mr. Smith . I confesseit signifies also to breake in sunder , but neuer to breake off . Mr. Walker . Yea , it signifies all kinde of breaking , euen breaking asunder , breaking a pieces , and breaking off ; for indeed it is an Hebrew word , and the Caldee borrowes it form the Hebrew , the first and most proper signification of it , is to breake asunder , or to breake off : and it doth signifie to Redeeme only in a trope by a Metominie of the cause for the effect , for men are redeemed out of bondage , by hauing their yoke of bondage broken off from their necke , and their chaines and fetters broken in sunder , and that that breaking is the meanes of their Redemption : That it signifies properly to breake off , appeares by the common vse of it in the Scriptures , as Gen. 27. 40. where Isaac saith to Esau. Thou shalt breake off his yoke from thy necke : Exod. 32. 2. where Aaron said to the people , Breake off the golden eare-rings which are in the eares of your wiues , &c. Thus Gentlemen you see what a bold face this man can set vpon a falshood , and how hee goeth about to beare downe the truth with great words . Sir Edward Harwood . Vpon this Sir Edward Harwood stood vp and said , that Mr. Smith hath failed much in this proofe , seeing the word in the original did beare another sense more proper , then that which he vrged for the only true sense . And that the proper sense which the English translation did follow , being so agreeable to the rule of faith was rather to be embraced . M. Smith . M. Smith thus confounded had no shift but this : That the Hebrew text was by the malice of the Iewes corrupted in many things , and that it was written of old without pricks , vntill the Iewish Massorites did inuent pricks and vowels , by which we doe reade it , diuers hundreds of yeeres after Christ : And therefore he would not build naturall point on the originall Hebrew words . Mr. Walker . Now ( saith Mr. Walker ) you shew you selse what you are in your owne colours , euen one who esteemes no authority or testimony either of God or man , further then they serue your owne turne : while you immagined that the Hebrew Text was against our translation , you did vrge it with great vehemencie , as the authority and testimony of God. Now when it failes you and contrary to your expectation doth make for vs : you vilifie it and reiect it , as a thing corrupted by the Iewes , and formed according to the minde and pleasure of the Iewish Massorites : wherein you shew not onely vanity of mind and inconstancie : but also malice and wickednesse ioined with wilfull ignorance . For how soeuer Elias Leuita a turnecoate Iew of later times , may seeme to affirme such a thing ( perhaps to please his Patron Aegidius ) that the Vowels were inuented by the Massorites of Tiberias : yet it is the iudgement of all the best learned , both Iewish Rabbins and Christians , that the pricks , vowels and accents , were from the beginning . And the Massorites were Iewes gathered both out of the East and West of purpose , to compare their most auncient and authentick Manuscrips together , and when they found them all to agree in Letters and points , they made their Massorah , and noted how many times such a word was written with such pricks in the Scripture ; how many verses , words , yet letters were in the Law , and which was the middle verse , word and letter , so that by their Massorah , if it hab beene kept perfect , a man might finde out , if there were but one word , letter , or prick altered or taken away out of all the old Testament . All the differences which were found between the Bibles of the Easterne and Westerne Iewes , are recorded and kept to this day , the one set down vnder the names of the Sonnes of Ashur , the other vnder the names of the Sonnes of Nephtali , and they are such as do not alter the sense at all , as may bee seene in all our great Rabbinicall Bibles ; The end therefore of the Massarites meeting , and of their worke , was not to inuent vowels and prickes , but onely to note how they did finde the Scriptures pricked and vowelled from the daies of old , and to set downe rules from the knowledge thereof , and for the preseruing them without alteration or corruption to all posterities : Thus much I haue learned out of the Rabbins , though my skill bee but small in their Language , and though I haue had no time to spend in the study of them , but such as I haue stollen from my other necessary studies of Diuinity , which properly concerne my Calling . And if you know not this to be true , I am sure you are but a weak Hebrutian , and slenderly read in Hebrew Rabbins . Mr. Smith . All the Rabbins are of opinion , that the pricks of the Bible were inuented by the Massarites , and vndoubtedly that opinion is the truth . Mr. Walker . I pray you name one Rabbin of note , who is of that opinion , and I will name you ten of the contrary ; I haue ten or twelue of the best Rabbin Comentaries vpon the Law of Moses , which I will shew to you , and if you can finde any of them to be of that opinion , I will yeeld vnto you in this point . Nay , more then that , I will shew out of the Scriptures written by Moses , that the originall Scriptures of Moses his Law , which were kept in the Tabernacle by the Priests , were written , not single without pricks as common coppies were , but double , both with letters and pricks , so that none could doubt of the right reading of them . Mr. Smith . It is easily said ; but impossible to be proued , if you can shew me any such thing out of the Scriptures , you shall do more then any euer yet could doe . Mr. Walker . Looke Deut. 17. 18. and there it is plainly testified , that there was a booke of the Law appointed to be kept before the Priests & Leuites in the Sanctuary ; out of which , the King was commanded to write him a double written Copie of the Law , that is a copie written both with letters and pricks , and so most easie to be read and vnderstood ; for the Hebrew word there vsed is Mishneth , which signifies Double , and so you see here in your interliniall Bible Pagani doth translate it ( Duplum legis ) that is , the Law written in the double forme , both with letters and pricks . Another Priest. Mr. Smith being confounded with this proofe could answer nothing , & therfore another Priest who did sit by to assist him , answered for him , that the Hebrew word Mishneth doth not signifie the originall Scriptures , but the exposition of the Rabbins vpon the text of Scripture . Mr. Walker . It is true that the Rabbins call their Expositions somtimes by this name , as for example Rabbi Moses , Maymonides call his Summe of the Talmid , Mishueth Torah : But you must know that in Moses his dayes , when he wrote this Booke of Deuteronomy , there were no Rabbinical Commentaries , nor for a thousand yeares after ; only the Law it selfe was kept before the Priests , and the King was commanded to write it onely into a Booke ; There Mishueth cannot here signifie any thing but the Text of the Law written in double forme , which double forme of writing was easie to bee read and vnderstood , and was an exposition in respect of the single writing without prickes . Whereupon this word Mishueth came to signifie an Exposition or Commentary which doth largely expresse the meaning of the Law , which is more short and obscure : and the Iewes do call by this name the Book of Deuteronomy , because it is an Exposition of the Lawes written more obscurely in the other bookes : And their Expositions of the Law set down in their Talmud : they also call Mishueth and Mishuai●th . Priest. The word Mishueth doth not signifie properly the Scripture , but the doubled Law : for the Scripture is called Mickra in the Hebrew tongue . Mr. Walker . The Law is the first Scripture which was written , and therefore the word Mishuith by your own confession , signisying the Law doubled , is written in double forme , signifies the Scripture written both with letters and pricks , and so you contradict your selfe in your speech : Whereas you alledge another name , by which the Hebrewes call the Scripture , to wit , Mickra , and from them would inferre , that the Scripture is neuer called Mishueth by them : I answer , that your reason is ridiculous , for one name of the Scripture doth not take away the rest , but it hath diuers names in all languages : we in English call it the Scripture , and the Bible , and the Booke of God , and Gods word : So in Hebrew the Scripture is called by diuers names ; sometimes Torah , that is , the Law , because it is the rule of Life ; sometimes Chethab , The Scripture or writing , because it is written . Sometimes Mickra , because it is read of all Gods people . And as it is written full and plaine in letters and pricks , it is called Mishueh . The Priest hauing nothing to reply to this answer , but holding his peace . Some of the Gentlemen desired , that these disputations about the Hebrew text , which they could not vnderstand might cease , and that Mr. Smith would dispute in plaine English by way of Syllogismes ; To which motion both parties agreed . And so Mr. Smith proceeded to another Argument , which was written downe first , and then answered . Mr. Smith . That Church which may erre for a time in a fundamentall point necessary to saluation , is no true Church . Yours is such . Mr. VValker . I deny your proposition ; for a true Church may so erre for a time . Mr. Smith . That Church which may erre for a time in a fundamentall point necessary to saluation , hath no certainty for that time , yours is such , Ergo , it is no true Church . Mr. Walker . Your Argument is Sophisticall and faultie diuers wayes : First , it doth not proue the proposition which I denyed , and so it is a fallacy , which we call 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Ignorationem Elanchi . Secondly , it is no true Syllogisme , because it hath foure tearmes . For the premisses tend to proue that our Church hath no certaintie , and you conclude otherwise : to wit , that it is no true Church . Thirdly , the proposition is false , for actuall erring in one point , doth not take away certainty in all the rest , much lesse possibilitie of erring for a time . Mr. Smith . I proue it thus . That Church which may erre for a time in a fundamentall point necessary to saluation , hath not sufficient meanes of saluation for that time : yours is such , Ergo , it is no true Church . Mr. Walker . Here are the same three faults , which were in your former Argument . First , no proofe of the proposition denyed . Secondly , foure tearmes . Thirdly , the manner is still false : for possibilitie of erring doth not take away sufficiency of meanes for the time . Mr. Smith . I proue it thus . That Church which may erre for a time in a fundamentall point necessary to saluation , for that time hath not the whole infallible truth requisite to salvation . But your Church may so erre : Ergo. It hath not the whole infallible faith requisite for salvation . Mr. Walker . I see you cannot bring one argument to proue that which I denyed ; but still you doe begin a new Argument to proue new things . Notwithstanding I will follow you wheresoever you goe ; and therefore I deny the maior , and doe require you to proue that possibility of erring , takes away the whole infallible faith from such as are subiect to it . Mr. Smith . I proue it thus . The beliefe of the whole infallible faith , is a meanes necessary to salvation . The English Church hath not the whole infallible faith : Ergo. That Church which may erre for a time in a fundamentall point , for that time hath not meanes sufficient . Mr. Walker . Now sir I see you haue lost the question , and your reason , and your selfe , and all your speech is a Chaos without forme or figure , and proueth nothing at all : If you be not able to make a Syllogisme ; I pray you confesse your weakenesse : and let mee dispute one of my questions against you , and let vs trie what facultie you haue in defending your cause ; I am sure you haue none to any purpose in opposing it . Mr. Smith . Stay a little , and I will bring it into a Syllogisme presently . The whole intire , infallible faith in all fundamentall points , is onely a meanes sufficient to salvation : That Church which may erre for a time in a fundamentall point , hath not the whole infallible faith : Ergo : it hath not sufficient meanes , &c. Mr. Walker . You cloy me with crasie Syllogismes which haue neither mood nor figure , and which tend to proue nothing but onely to repeat what hath beene before denyed ; to wit , That possibility of erring for a time in a fundamentall point , doth depriue a Church of the whole infallible faith . Thus you bring in againe as your minor , though it hath before beene denyed : and therefore I will still put you to proue it . But I pray you let your assistant write downe your Syllogismes , for I am weary of writing , and of wasting paper , with false fallacies and confused speeches , which hath neither mood nor figure . Mr. Smith . I am sure I shall quickly bring my Argument into forme , if you stand so strictly on artificiall Syllogismes : Hauing thus sayd , he arose from the table , as if hee would breath himselfe ; and after much scratching of his head , and other gestures , he turnes to the Priest his assistant and bids him write : and did dictate vnto him another false Syllogisme of some tearmes : which Mr. Walker reiected and derided ; And after that another , which was so reiected : And after that a third , and so on till he had spent a side of a leafe in folio in writing downe fallacies , and a large halfe houre and more of time . So that Mr. Walker began to intreat him that he would giue him leaue to make his Syllogisme for him , for he perceiued what he intended Whereat Mr. Smith chafed , and sayd to the Gentlemen , he confounds me , or else I could haue long agoe brought it into a Syllogisme . Mr. Walker answered : you doe me wrong to attribute to mee the honour which belongs to God and his truth , for they confound you and not I. Then one of the Roman Catholikes began to sweare by God , that Mr. Smith did make a true Syllogisme , which Mr. Walker had without cause reiected . Mr. VValker desired him to repeat it , and to shew it to be regular , according to moode and figure . The Roman Catholike swore againe divers great oathes , and sayd that he would take the Sacrament vpon it , and renounce his salvation if hee did not heare Mr. Smith make a true Syllogisme , and that one of them which Mr. Walker reiected was it . Mr. VValker answered , that oathes could not proue false Syllogismes to be true , neither could the Sacrament turne a fallacy into a sound Argument . And told him that if he were so prodigall of his saluation , he might sooner lose his soule , then make a Syllogisme out of Mr. Smiths confused speeches and fallacies . At length after much adoe Mr. Smith hammered out this Syllogisme . Mr. Smith . That Church which hath not the whole intire infallible faith , hath not meanes sufficient to salvation , That Church which may erre for a time , hath not the whole intire infallible faith , Ergo , it hath not meanes sufficient . Mr. Walker . I deny your minor , and doe put you to proue , that the Church which may erre , hath not the whole infallible faith . Mr. Smith . I proue it thus : That Church which is subiect to error , hath not the whole infallible faith . That Church which may erre is subiect to error . Ergo. Mr. Walker . Now sir I thanke you , that you haue bestowed a Syllogisme vpon me , to proue the proposition denied . But I must tell you , that your maior proposition is false . For a Church may be so far subiect to error , that it may haue a possibility to erre , and yet not be voide of the whole infallible faith : It is one thing to be subiect to error , and another thing to erre actually : we hold that our Church or any other particular Protestant Church may erre ; but doe not thinke that our Church doth erre in any fundamentall point . Mr. Smith . You doe but cavill ; for if it may erre , it is as bad as if it did erre , and therefore I haue sufficiently convinced you by my argument . Mr. Walker . I hope you doe not speake as you thinke , nor thinke as you speake : For you know that by our Law euery Seminary Priest is subiect to hanging and quartering , and there is no impossibility of executing the Law vpon them ; And yet you hope that all or the most part of them in England shall not be actually executed ; and you know that they are not all in the same case , as if they were hanging actually : For an Argument doth not follow a posse ad esse , as we Schollers speake . But now seeing your argument is hanged vp , and wee haue spent foure houres and more in hearing you dispute to no purpose , I pray you let mee prosecute one of my questions against you for the time which remaineth , and I hope to make more Syllogismes in an houre , then you haue done in foure , if you will answer me directly . Here some of the Roman Catholikes said that it was full sixe a clocke , and now there was little time left . But some of the Protestants desired to heare Mr. Walker dispute vpon his questions . Which when Mr. Smith seemed loath to yeeld vnto , as being weary already . Mr. Walker desired , that he might but turne one Argument against Mr. Smiths question , and proue the contrary to be true . To this all assented , and the Gentleman who began to distrust his former professed Popery comming to Mr. Walker , and standing at his backe desired him to presse one Argument against Mr. Smiths question . Whereupon Mr. Walker thus began to proue , That a true Christian Church might erre for a time in some fundamentall point , and yet be a true Church . Mr. Walker . That which the auncient Apostolicall Church might doe , other succeeding Churches may doe with the same successe . The Apostolicall Church might erre and did erre in a maine point , and yet haue a true faith , and was a true Church , Ergo , other Churches also . Mr. Smith . I deny the minor , the Apostolicall Church did not erre in any maine point . Mr. Walker . The resurrection of Christ from the dead taught in the Scriptures , is a fundamentall point of Faith. The Apostolike Church did erre in it , Ergo : Mr. Smith denyed the minor . Mr. VValker proued it thus . That which the Gospell teacheth in expresse words is true . This the Gospell teacheth , that the Apostles erred in Christs resurrection , Ergo. Mr. Smith . If you say that they erred in the resurrection de facto , that is concerning the act of it , I grant the minor : But if you speake of the resurrection as it is a point of Faith , I deny your minor . Mr. VValker . You distinguish strangely betweene a thing and it selfe ; for the very act of Christs resurrection is a point of Faith , without which our faith is vaine as the Apostle sayth , 1 Cor. 15. 17. Mr. Smith . It is now a point of faith , but it was not then , because the Scriptures had not expressely revealed , that Christ should rise from death . Mr. Walker . That which Christ had expresly taught by word of mouth , was thereby made a point of Faith , and they were bound to beleeue . But he had told them , that he must suffer and rise againe the third day : and that in plaine words , as the Gospell testifies , Ergo. Here some of the Gentlemen said , that the point was sufficiently proued . Mr. Smith . But I deny that the Apostles erred in the Resurrection : shew me that out of the Gospell . Mr. Walker . It is testified Ioh. 20. 9. That they knew not the Scripture that he must rise from the dead . Loe thus it is testified in your owne vulgar Latine Bible . Mr. Smith . I say still , that the Scriptures had not reuealed it sufficiently , and therefore it was no point of faith . Mr. Walker . The text shewes that the Scripture had reuealed , for else how could it truely say , that they knew not the Scripture ; if the Scripture had not taught it ? It is no ignorance of Scripture , not to know what the Scripture neuer taught . Sir William Harrington . O well sayd , I protest I neuer heard any point so plainely proued ; and then turning himselfe to the wauering Gentleman said : Now cousen , if euer thou wilt be conuerted , be conuerted with these proofes . Mr. Walker . But yet I will proue it more fully , Luk. 24. 44. 45. Our Sauiour there saith , that he had told them before , that he must die and rise againe , and that it was written in the Law of Moses , and in the Prophets , and in the Psalmes , and it is said there , that he opened their vnderstanding , that they might vnderstand the Scriptures . Mr. Smith . This was an error of ignorance or forgetfulnesse , for want of instruction and exercise in the Word , which succeeding Churches haue more aboundantly . Mr. Walker . You cauill against common sense , for I dispute not whence this error proceeded , but whether they erred in that maine point of the resurrection or not ; and that you cannot deny , so that the point is fully proued which I vndertooke . Againe , I can shew you yet further , that Christ having instructed them in the Scriptures , and from his owne mouth , it could not be for want of instruction that they erred , but this error proceeded from incredulity and hardnes of heart in them , so it appeares , Mark. 16. 14. where it is said that our Sauiour appeared to the eleven Apostles , and vpbraided them with their incredulitie and hardnesse of heart , because they beleeued not them which had seene him after he was risen . Another Priest. Mr. Smith being put to silence with those proofes , the other Priest to make vp this breach , fled to another shift , and denyed the Apostles to haue beene a Church at that time , because the holy Ghost was not yet come downe , nor the Euangelicall Law reuealed . Mr. Walker . Vpon this , Mr. Walker first spake to the wauering Gentleman , and asked him , whether he thought it not well for him to be of such a Church as St. Peter was , when Christ said . Math. 16. Happy art thou Simon , &c. And , vpon this rocke I will build my Church . Who answered , that he desired to be of no better Church . Secondly , he proceeded thus ; The Kingdome of God which comes by the Preaching of the Gospell is the true Church . But that was come alreadie , as our Sauiour himselfe testified , Matth. 11. 28. and Luk. 11. 20. It is a base shift , to say that the comming downe of the holy Ghost made them a Church : For his extraordinary gifts came not to make them Christians , and members of the Church of Christ , but to make them fit messengers to Preach to all Nations , and to euery people , in their proper tongue . But if all this will not conuince you , let vs know who were the Church in those dayes , if the Apostles were not . Peter had receiued that commission and promise long before , vpon which you build the Church of Rome , if it was not then able to make him of the Church , how can it now vphold your Church against all the gates of hell ? Now then to conclude , I beseech you as you loue your soules , take heed of sinning against your owne Conscience , and of rebelling against the light : you know that the Apostles were elected from all eternitie ; they were effectually called by Christ himselfe , not onely to beleeue , and to be Christians and open professors , but also to be Apostles and Preachers , and by the Gospell Preached and Miracles wrought , they had conuerted many to the faith , as the Gospell testifieth ; And therefore nothing being wanting in them , which is required to the essence of a Christian Church : vndoubtedly they were a true Church , and to deny this , is to resist the manifest truth of the Gospell . Thus the disputation ended ; for the Priests did not giue any answer , but were very willing to make an end . The Protestant Gentlemen seemed well satisfied , and made them readie to depart . And one of the Roman Catholikes calling Mr. VValker aside , began to collogue and flatter with him ; telling him , that he was a good Logician , a good Linguist , and well read , and that God had giuen him a sharpe wit and ready tongue : And therefore no maruell though he preuailed and made a good cause seeme bad , when he opposed it , and a bad seeme good when he defended it : But saith he , take heed that you do not trust to your wit and learning too much , least they deceiue you , and make you triumph ouer the truth . To him Mr. Walker answered , that he knew himselfe inferiour to many hundreds in the Church of England ; that it was not any power in himselfe , but the power of the true cause which made him to preuaile . For , Magnus est veritas & praeualebit , Great is truth and will preuaile . A Gentleman ouer-hearing , laughed and sayd , I am glad that you finde some of our Ministers more learned then your Priests ; contrary to your common bragging and boasting , that all learning is among your Priests and Iesuites . And so they parted . Mr. Smith alias Norrice embracing Mr. Walker , and saying ; I pray God we may meet in heauen ; and Mr. Walker replying and saying , I desire so also , and hope we shall so doe , if you will forsake your errours and embrace the truth , which is professed in the reformed Churches of CHRIST . Soli Deo gloria . FINIS . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A14657-e110 Math. 13. 4. 16. 12.