A Catholicke conference betvveene Syr Tady Mac. Mareall a popish priest of VVaterforde, and Patricke Plaine a young student in Trinity Colledge by Dublin in Ireland VVherein is deliuered the certayne maner of execution that was vsed vpon a popish bishop, and a popish priest, that for seueral matters of treason were executed at Dublin the first of February, now last past. 16ll. Strange to be related, credible to be beleeued, and pleasant to bee perused. By Barnabe Rych, Gent. seruant to the Kinges most excellent Maiestie. Rich, Barnabe, 1540?-1617. 1612 Approx. 143 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 31 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2008-09 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A10699 STC 20981 ESTC S115901 99851118 99851118 16376 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. 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Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng O'Devany, Cornelius, 1533-1612. O'Lochran, Patrick, d. 1612. Catholic Church -- Controversial literature -- Early works to 1800. 2006-03 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2006-03 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2007-03 Ali Jakobson Sampled and proofread 2007-03 Ali Jakobson Text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A CATHOLICKE CONFERENCE BETVVEENE SYR TADY Mac. Mareall a popish priest of VVaterforde , and Patricke Plaine a young student in Trinity Colledge by Dublin in Ireland . Wherein is deliuered the certayne maner of execution that was vsed vpon a popish Bishop , and a popish Priest , that for seueral matters of Treason were executed at Dublin the first of February , now last past . 1611. Strange to be related , credible to be beleeued , and pleasant to bee perused . By Barnabe Rych , Gent. Seruant to the Kinges most excellent Maiestie . Malui me diuitem esse quam vocari . LONDON Printed for Thomas Adams . 1612. TO THE HYGH AND MIGHTY PRINCE HENRIE , THE Most Royall Heyre apparant , to the vnited Kingdomes of great BRITTAYNE , FRANCE , and IRELANDE . &c. MOst worthy and renowned PRINCE , I am in hope it shall seeme no presumption , to offer this my vnlettered dilligence to the sight and view of your Highnesse , the cause especially belonging to the setting forth of Gods glory , and after a certaine maner , doth very nearely concerne the seruice of your royall Father , of whose Christian inclination to plant piety , and to releeue innocency , the world hath had long experience . To none more rather thē to your Highnesse therefore belongeth these mine endeuours , whom nature and rare vertues with liberall minde hath adorned with singular indowments : and education againe furnished with knowledge and exquisite learning belonging to a Prince . May it now please your Grace , my selfe hauing heere ( according to my little skill ) stood in defence of our religiō against the eager assaults of peruerse and malicious papistes : Although I must confesse , with more breuity then the amplenesse of the matter , or the necessity of the cause required : I am therefore most humbly to craue pardon of your Highnesse , for passing of those bounds that custome prescribeth in that case : yet if there were no further cause to presse your Highnesse , for the Patronage of so good a purpose this might suffice : It is meant for the glory of God , but besides this inducement , there is yet one other especiall inforcement to leade me to this on-set namely when in that infortunate Country of Irelande , the Popes Vermine ( your royall Fathers mortall enemies ) haue such scope and liberty , that they drawe the people after them , to runne headlong into that extreame perdition , both of body and soule , and into that horrible downefall of disobedience both to God and their Prince . Nowe where their resteth so much presumption in Priestes to Impugne the sworde of gouerment , there must be courage in Princes to defend their owne . I will wade no deeper , but in all humble and submissiue maner will leaue these lines to your Gratious vewe . And thus layinge my handes vnder your Highnes feete will rest . Your Graces Souldier euer more deuoted to doe your Highnes seruice BARNABE RICH A CATHOLYCKE CONFERENCE BETWEENE SYR TADY MAC. MAREALL A Popish Priest of VVaterforde , And Patricke Playne , a young student of Trinitie Colledge by Dublyne , in Irelande . Tady I Am glad Patricke , wee haue slipped the rest of our company , we may now conferre betweene our selues , and no man to molest vs. Patricke . I thanke God Sir Tady , I haue nothing to say that I care who doth heare , and therefore in companie or out of companie all is one to me . Ta. And I am indifferent too for that , but beecause you asked mee whether I had forsaken my spirituall function or nay , what was your meaning in that demand ? Pa. Nothing but this ruffling sute of apparel , that I see on your backe , with your gylt Rapier and Dagger hanging by your side , methinkes it is more gentleman-like then priest-like , and this makes me to thinke you haue giuen vp your order , and that you are become the same in profession , that you make shew to be by your attyre . Ta. Alas Patricke necessitie hath no lawe , it is not my cause alone that is driuen to this distresse , there bee many hundreds in Ireland besides my selfe , that are glad to disguise themseues from the rygour of those lawes that haue beene lately contryued and pronounced against vs : Pa. I doe not know what lawes they be that you doe terme to be so rigorous , I heare of no lawes that doe exact any blouddy executions or any other tragical tyranies , as burning , massacring murthering , torturing , or any other such vnchristian-like cruelties : Ta. Do you not heare of the Proclamation now lately published through the whole Realme of Ireland , that is set foorth against Catholickes , either to enforce them against their consciences , or to hazard themselues into vnknowne danger : Pa. If your cause of complaint proceeded but from that , I see you can exclaime vppon light occasion , and coulde you but call to remembrance the persecutions , the tortures and torments , that from time to time hath bin prosecuted by poplings , against the true professors of the Gospell , and that you were but handeled , as you handeled them : you had then cause indeede to complaine for somewhat . Ta. And do you thinke our causes to be so light , when we shall be compelled against our consciences ? Pa. And when your Pope takes vppon him to depose Kings , to interdict Realmes , to authorize rebellion , to dispence with subiectes for their obedience to their soueraigne , doe you not thinke it high time for Princes to looke about them ? Ta. And I thinke as high time for vs to looke to our selues , but Catholickes I can tell you , are neyther children nor fooles , they will not be easely dasht out with a Proclamation . Pa. Belike they doe thinke to dash out the Proclamation in this disguised sorte to keepe themselues vnknowne . Ta. You need not doubt but that wee meane to shift for our selues , and not to runne into wilfull danger , so long as wee may preuent it . Pa. But doe you thinke that this disguising of your selues , will serue your turne to preuent it ? Ta. It hath serued our turne for fourtie yeares together , & why should it not doe so still . Pa. Because these matters wil be more narrowly looked vnto , and if you remember your selfe well , there is an edict in the proclamation that euery Iustice of assise shal giue it in charge to the Iury that must both make inquiry and present it . Ta. But from whence will you fetch your Iurates that will present against Catholickes , you may well fetch them from Geneus , but they will be very hardly found in Ireland . Pa. Why doe your Iurates of Ireland make so litle account of an oath that they will forsweare themselues ? Ta What account should they make of an oath that is taken to the preiudice of one Catholick to another , when they haue so many dispensations in a readinesse , and doe know where they may be absolued for more oathes in one houre , then they be able to sweare in seuen yeares . Pa. If dispensations be so ready as you speake of , how comes it to passe , that in euery corporate towne in Ireland , the Mayor and Sheryues hadde sometimes rather to goe to pryson then to take the oath of obedience to the King ? Ta. the Mayor and Sheryues of euery towne corporate , is inioyned for that houre to the seruice of the prince , and how can a man more honestly expresse his zeale to the pope , then flatly to deny his seruice to his prince ▪ I say that Catholicke that will offer himselfe to prison in such a case ( as yearely they doe almost in euery towne ) is worthy to attaine that estimation that he himselfe doth so much desire ? Pa. And what is that to be accounted a reble , a traytor , and a false hearted villayne to his prince . Ta. No syr he doth it out of the loue he beareth to the Pope , & therefore amongest Catholickes to be beloued , honored , esteemed , cherished , and to be reputed for a patron , a protector , and a demy saint so long as he liueth , and after his death to be canonized , numbred and regestred in the Popes Calender . Pa. Why then ●o commit a papist to pryson , is rather a grace then a disgrace vnto him . Ta. I tell you it is a glory vnto him , he doth reioyce in it , hee doth triumph in it , he doth knowe himselfe to bee renowned by it . Pa. But doth your townes-men that bee thus ill affected to their prince , indure anie great penurie during the time of their imprysonment ? Ta. Now God and our blessed Lady defend it , no sir , they liue in pleasure , they lie well , they fare well , they are frequented by their friends , and rather then they should liue in lacke , the whole cittie where they dwell will contribute towardes their charges . Pa. But is not this a gratious clemencie in a soueraigne , that will suffer those corporations to houlde or inioy any liberties or priuiledges , that are thus opposite to himselfe and repugnant to his lawes ? Ta. Speake not of clemency Patricke , where the priestes that shoulde sacrifice for the sinnes of the people are constrayned to liue in a disguised sort , but not in open show : Pa. And by this counterfeit shift of disguising themselues , they march vp and downe the streets of Dublyne , and where they list besides seducing the people , without impeachment . Ta. And from whence is that but by the mighty power of God that is able to protect his seruants although in the Lions denne , and therefore he that hath any wit in his head , will neuer seeke to apprehend , trouble or molest any Catholicke priest . Pa. Whereof should we stand in feare or doubt ? Ta. Of more enemies then friendes bee sure of that . And name mee but any one manne that hath most buisied himselfe in those matters , that hath gotten eyther gaine or grace : and lette it bee that a Catholicke priest bee sometimes apprehended ( as God bee thanked for it , it is seldome seene in Ireland ) doth he not vse his priestly dignitie , in as large and as ample manner as if hee were at libertie , in what pryson can you shutte him vppe , but there he maketh holy water , holy bread , holy falt , holy candell , and for those that haue continuall accesse vnto him , aswell men , women and children , he confirmes them still and reconciles them to the pope . Pa. But doe you reconcile so many to the Pope when you be in prison as you speake of ? Ta. Both in pryson , and out of prison we reconcile as many , as will heare or beleeue vs. Pa. What to be traytors to the prince ? Ta. No syr but to vow themselues to the pope , without any intended treason to the prince . Pa. But this reconciled sort must in the end become traitors to the prince , whether they ment it at the first or nay , for when it pleaseth your holy father to depose the prince , and to excommunicate as many as will acknowledge him for a lawfull magistrate ( as many times he hath done ) what shall your reconciled sort do then ? Ta. If a prince bee a heriticke shoulde wee communicate with him ? Pa. We may then condemne his heresie , but we must pray for his person , as the Apostle hath taught vs : I exhort you therefore , that first of all supplications , prayers and intercessions be made for Kings , and so for all that are in authoritie . Ta. That is meete , so long as they be good christians . Pa. The aduertisement was written from Paul to Tymothy , and at that time when princes were both infidels and Idolators : Ta. I thinke those kings that be pagans , are rather to be prayed for , then those that be heretickes . Pa. The church of Christ hath prayed for those princes that were heretickes , & that in the middest of their impietie and hottest tyrany : Constantius for one that was an Arian , and yet was prayed for by the decree of a common Counsell . Ta. Perhaps they might do this in the beginning of his raigne before his heresie was discouered . Pa. Perhaps there are none but papists that would appose any such doubtes , and what are they but traytors that woulde teach subiectes to rebell ? Ta. It is no treason to say the Pope may depose princes , when he hath receiued that power from Christ . Pa. If you coulde but proue that , we might the better beleeue you in some other matters : Ta. Hath he not the keyes of the kingdome of heauen ? Pa. So hath euery other person that is a minister of the word of God , but what haue they to do with the kingdōes of the earth : our Sauiour beeing demaunded by Pilate what kingdome it was that hee claimed , openly avowed : My kingdome is not of this world but the Pope that takes vppon him but to be his Vicar , woulde dispose of all the kingdomes in the world . Ta. May not the shepheard reclaime the sheepe if he will not be ruled ? Pa. So he may sell the sheepe to the Butcher if he bee fat , but what is that to your Pope , woulde you haue him to doe the like by princes ! I hope you vnderstand Syr Tady , that all similitudes be no sylogismes . Ta. For all this I cannot thinke it any treason to defende that the pope may lawfully depose any prince , for tyrany or heresie . Pa. I cannot let you to thinke what you list , but I can tell you truly it is treason by the lawes of the Realme , to subiect eyther the princes sword or his crowne to the Popes courtes , or in any sort to his vsurped power . Ta. The time hath beene when Princes might in no wise meddle with ecclesiasticall persons , and I warrant you the Pope will neuer giue his consent that any prince of them all shoulde haue lawfull authoritie to punish a priest . Pa. God be thanked of a good amendment , Princes are beecome to be more wise , and I thinke you haue heard of some prety store of your trayterous priestes that haue already hopped as far as from Tyber to Tyburne , and there is some hope that shortly more will follow . Ta. I haue hearde of some that suffered martyrdome , but I know you will say they were executed for treason , when in truth it was but for the testimony of their consciences . Pa. And if it be a matter of conscience for priests and Iesuites to vndermine a princes estate , and to stirre vp their subiectes to rebell , to goe about to plucke the crowne from their heades and to wrest the scepter out of their handes , then you say truth , they suffered for their consciences , but if your priestes and Iesuytes , were sent from Rome as Pioners to make ready the way for the Popes Bull , that should haue disinherited the Prince , and giuen his crowne to another , as was apparantly proued and confessed by thēselues , I wonder with what faces papistes can excuse those iustly condemned traytors , and to intitle them for martyrs . Ta. I cannot tell what was proued against them , but I am sure they were cruelly executed , but what should I neede to speake of matters that were done so many yeares past , when we haue examples here at home , that be yet bleeding new , of two holy martyrs that were executed at Dublyne , but vpon Candlemas eaue nowe last past , the one a reuerend and a learned By shop , inuested many yeares sithens to the Bishopricke of Downe by the Popes holinesse , the other a holy Catholicke priest , that did both together suffer martyrdome in a most constant manner onely for their consciences , and for the testimonie of the Catholicke faith . Pa. Now fye of the diuell , and out vppon popery , is it possible that any papist should be found so foolish to bring this matter into question , vnlesse to shame himselfe , or to make his religion ridiculous ? but doe you call him a reuererid and a learned ●yshop , that was a very blocke , without wit learning or honesty , hee shewed it in the manner of his life , but neuer more manifest then at the houre of his death . It is truth , he had his inuestment by the Pope , for those Balamite Idyotes , be fit instruments to spread the Popes doctrine , especially in Ireland , where the poore people are so infected with this Locust vermine of priests and fryars , that they will sooner be leeue an Asse that comes from Rome with a Popes Bull , then an Angell of heauen , that shoulde bee sent with the light of Gods word . Now for your holy priest that accompanied your learned Bishop , me thinkes our papistes of Ireland should make intercession to our Lady , that his name might neuer more be hadde in remembrance , that at the time of his death , did shewe himselfe to be the very disgrace of popery , and an vtter reproch to the religion he professed . Ta. Why Patricke although the priest did shew himselfe to be in some little astonishment with the terrour of the death hee was to indure , yet he died constantly without revolting from his religion , and the Byshop and hee together indured their martyrdome with patience enough . Pa. I wonder with what shameles faces papists can auow those to be martyrs , and to die for the testimony of their consciences , that were both of them euycted of high treason , and no matter of religion inforced against them : was not your Byshop indited of sixteene seuerall articles of treason , all of them openly confessed by himselfe , and he condemned by his owne confession ? Ta. And yet I hope you will not deny , but that all his articles , which you say were so many treasons , tended all to the aduancement of the holy church of Rome : which euery honest man is bound in conscience to doe . Pa. If all our priestes in Ireland that doe teach that doctrine to the poore silly people of that country , were drawne hanged & quartered as your Byshop was , the kings maiesty would be both better beloued , and more dutifully serued in Ireland then nowe he is . Ta. Then I perceiue you do stil thirst after bloud : is not your insatiate desire yet glutted enough , with the death of those two worthy martyrs , especially of that reuerend Bishop , who was so dearely beloued through all the partes of Ireland , aswell for his learning as for the seueral seruices he had performed to the holy church of Rome . Pa. Sir Tady I protest I do thirst after no mans bloud , neither doe I knowe any one papist in Ireland that I would seeke his life or wish his death , but do rather both pittie him & pray for him , but I wonder you are not ashamed to intitle those for martyrs , that were openly knowne traytors ; And what were those holy seruices that you say your Bishop was so dearely beloued for , were they not his seditious practises , that for many yeares together was still stirring vppe of the people to armes and rebellion ? were not these the articles wherewith he was accused , the which himselfe confessed , and for the which he was iustly condemned ? what other wit learning or honesty was in him , that you so much magnifie ? Ta. I hope you will not deny him to be learned . Pa. I will deny him nothing that was his due , his learning was fit to concurre with that authority the Pope had giuen him , that was to stirre vp the people to treason , and rebellion , for anie other litterature , if ought were in him , it might haue beene begged for a concealment , for he neuer shewed it . Ta. Why doe you slander the dead , he shewed himselfe to be a great scholler at the very houre of his death . Pa. Good sir Tady doe me the fauour to tell me wherein . Ta. Being ready to mount vp the ladder : when he was preased by some standers by to speake , did he not itterate , and reitterate Sine me quaso , Sine me quaso , so distinct and plainely , that euery latinist might well vnderstand him : this was a signe he was learned , and that he could speake Latine . Pa. And here we see the end of this great learned Bishop , that had liue ▪ in conspiracie for many yeares against his prince , and being condemned to the gallowes for his treason as hee was wel worthy , had nothing to say in his owne excuse but Sine me quaso . Ta. What woulde you haue him to say in such a case , but to giue himselfe to prayer and contemplation . Pa. But what bragges be these that are made of his witte and learning , that had liued like a rauening Woolfe , and dyed like a dumbe dogge . Ta. If there were no better worth in him then your words do import , how came it to passe that the multitude of people , both men and women that did follow him to the place of execution , made such doll and lamentation after him , as the heauens them selues resounded the Eccho of their outcries . Pa. Before I answere your demand , I holde it best to make a true relation of the maners and behauiours of the people that so followed him to the place of execution , strange and foolish I confesse to bee rehearsed , but because you haue vrged it , thus it followeth . The 28. day of Ianuary now last past , the Bishop with his cōpanion the priest , being brought to an araignment at the Kings bench barre at Dublyne , were there condemned of treason , and adiudged to be executed the next saturday following , which was the first of February being Candlemas eue : which day being come , in the morning something timely , by a Catholicke consent , a priest or two of the Popes broode , were sent with holy water and other like holy stuffe , to sanctifie and hallow the gallowes where they should be hanged . Loe here the pietie that is in popery , I haue many times heard speaking of hallowed bread , of hallowed water , of hallowed ashes , of hallowed beades , and of such other like hallowed trash , but I neuer heard of a payre of gallowes that were hallowed before , but these gallowes being thus sanctified , and made holy afore hand , about 2. of the clocke in the afternoone , the traytors were deliuered to the Sheryues of Dublyne that were to see execution , who placing them in a small carre , and being assisted with a conuenient guarde , as they passed along through the streetes of Dublyne , diuerse citizens ( whereof some that were of good sort and fashion ) as the Bishop passed by , fell downe vppon their knees in the durt and mire , crauing his fatherly blessing & benediction , but the poore regardles wretch , sitting still like a blocke woulde neither vouchsafe them worde , nor so much as to turne his head aside to looke at them , or once to lift vp his eyes to heauen , or to make shew eyther of deuotion or of anie religion at all , what was in him , so that he might haue bin a Papist a Turke or a Iew , for any thing that could haue bin discerned by him , either by his wordes or by his showe : And now being come to the place of execution , it is truth he was followed with troopes of citizens , both men and women , and not of the inferior sort alone , but of the better , & amongst the women , of the best mens wiues within the cittie of Dublyne : that kept such a scriking , such a howling , and such a hallowing , as if Saint Patricke himselfe had bin going to the gallowes , they could not haue made greater signes and showes of griefe and sorrowe : but when they saw him turned from of the gallowes , they raised the Who bub , with such a maine cry , as if the rebels had beene approched to robbe and rifell their cittie . Now to answere to your question , if I should say that this deploring of a traytor , with such signes and showes of sorrowe , did argue but little loue to his maiestie , perhaps I might offende a great number of papistes , but this I dare bouldly affirme , that those fooleries , that were vsed both before and after the execution , argued but little wit ; and I thinke the recitall of it woulde make the papistes themselues to laugh at the folly of popery , for marke what followed . The executioner had no sooner taken of the Bishops heade , but that the townes men of Dublyne , began to flocke about him : some taking vp the head with pitious aspect , accompanied with sobs and sighes , that of my conscience were breathed out from their verie soule . Some kissed it with as religious an appetite as euer they kissed the Paxe . Some cut away all the haire from the head , which lousie commoditie , they religiously reserued , for a lousie relique . Some others were practising to steale the heade away , the which beeing espyed by the executioner , hee gaue notice of the matter to the Sheryues of Dublyne . Now when he began to quarter the body , the women thronged about him as fast , and happy was shee that coulde gett but her handkercheife dipped in the bloud of the traytor : And the body being once disseuered into foure quarters , they neither left finger nor toe , but they cut them off , and carried them away : And to shew their Catholike zeale , they tare his garments into tatters , and some others that could get no holy monumentes that appertayned ▪ to his person , with their kniues they shaued of chippes from the hallowed gallowes : neyther would they so much as omitt the halter wherewith he was hanged , but it was gathered vp to be reserued for holy vses . I might speake heere of the Bishops breeches that the executioner sould for fiue shillings to a fellow that carrying them into the towne , and tearing them into fitters made as good a market of them amongst the Catholikes of Dublin , as if they hadd beene pardons newe come from Rome : the poore hangman againe who but laying his cloake a little apart whilst hee was doing of his office , it was stolne away from him , and could not be heard on till within two or three dayes , and then it was knowne to be cut into shreadds , and so sold amongst the Papistes for holy reliques at a very deare rate , thinking it had beene some vestment belonging to the Bishop . I am sorry for my country-men that are so blind and blockish but see what followed : the same night after the execution was done , they flocke together afresh both men and women , with holy water , holy candle : and congregating themselues at the holy gallowes , in the place of execution , they spent the fore part of the night in heathenish howling , and performing many popish ceremonies , and after midnight , beeing then Candelmas day in the morning , hauing there priests in a readines they had Masse , and as some say Masse after Masse : day light beeing come they departed to their owne houses , all of them made as holy towardes God , as they had shewed themselues dutifull to the King. Ta. You haue made a long discourse to little purpose , for say you what you can , it will neuer be beleeued amongst the Catholickes in Ireland , but that these men dyed holy Martyrs , & suffered for matters that did concerne the Church ; now for temporall Magistracie to haue foueraigntie in spirituall regiment is very vnnaturall , say you what you can . Pa Who should else mayntaine and vpholde godly lawes but the Prince ? who should banish and displace false religion together with the spreaders and dispersers of the same but the Prince ? who should punish malefactors against God , as heretickes , blasphemers , Idolaters , and such other like which is to be done in euery Christian common wealth , but the Prince . Ta. The Prince must learne at the priestes hand , what is truth , and what is errour , before he set in hand to punish . Pa. But if the priest doth preach errour in stead of truth , may not the Prince both banish the doctrine , and punish the teacher ? Ta. The Pope is the onely decider of those doubts , it is hee that must iudge betweene truth and errour . Pa. But if the Pope doth finde an errour , and doth command the Prince to punish it , may he not then doe it with authority ? Ta. If the Pope doth commaund , there is no question but the Prince must obey . Pa. Then Kings and Princes must doe more for the Pope , then they may do for Christ , but if Princes may not iudge of the truth , what meant Dauid in his second Psalme to say : Bee wise yee Kinges , vnderstand yee Iudges , and serue the Lord. Ta. Well , let be that Princes may commaund , yet I say still the Church must appoynt them what they must commaund . Pa. But what doe you meane by the Church , that you say must thus direct the Prince ? Ta. What should I meane but the Church , that is the Pope , his Cardinals , Bishops , Priestes , and all other persons ecclesiasticall . Pa. But what meant Saint Paul Actes . 20. when hee called the Elders of Ephesus , and willed them to feed the Church of God , what meant he by the Church , the priests , or the people ? Ta. Perhaps hee ment them both , aswell ▪ the people as the priestes . Pa. Canne you finde in any one text of Scripture , where the Church is taken for the priestes without the people ? Ta. But yet the priestes are onely called Churchmen . Pa. Why now you haue answered the matter soundly , hereafter when they tell vs that the Church doth consist in the whole congregation of the faithfull , we may then answer them , that the priestes onely were called churchmen , and therefore they must commande Kinges and Princes , what they must doe , and what religion they must establish . Ta. It is very true , for who should iudge of religion but the Priest . Pa. Why then the priest must iudge of truth , but the Prince you say may commande for truth , and then we are all this while out of our reckoning , for if it bee in the princes power to command for truth , they will say that our gratious king , commaundeth nothing here in Ireland , but what Christ hath already commanded , and what is established by the word of God , and thus we haue brought our hogges to a faire market . Ta. But that princes should haue power to compell mens consciences , I say is a thing most vnreasonable . Pa. And that euery ignorant and obstinate person shoulde make a conscience of euery popish fantazy is a thing most intollerable . Ta. Doe you terme it to bee fantasticall that our progenitors , haue professed , and that we our selues were baptized in ? Pa. This is your common inchantment , wherewith you bewitch a number of seely soules , bearing them beleeue , that in bap tisme , they haue vowed themselues to your Romish religion : but in whose name were you baptized , was itin the popes , or in Peters or in Paules ▪ if in no other then in the nameof Christ alone , then are you made the sonnes of God , and not the slaues and vassels of Rome , and as in baptisme , you receiued no mans marke but his , so you stand bound to regard no mans voyce but his . Ta. Yet I say still that it standes with no reason , that a prince may forcibly compell any man against his conscience . Pa. But I say still that a Prince may forcibly compell his subiectes from Idolatry and heresie , to the sincere seruice of God , & the scriptures doe furnish vs with sundry presidents tending to that purpose , amongst the rest take this one : Iosiah was highly commended for making the people of Ierusalem , & all that were ●ound in Israell to serue the Lorde . Ta. Iosiah compelled the people to serue the Lorde according to the truth , but doth it therefore follow , that euery prince , may inforce a religion , that is but fitting to his owne will and fancie ? Pa. It doth therefore followe , and by the circumstance of the whole chapter , it doth appeare , that euery christian Prince throughout his realmes and dominions , may roote out heresie , Idolatry , superstition , and hauing againe restablished the true and sincere worship of God , may compell and inforce his subiects both to obey and submit themselues vnto it . Ta. But the religion which we professe , is the true auncient & Apostolicke religion , first deliuered by Christ himselfe vnto Peter , and by Peter himselfe to his successors the Bishops of Rome . Pa. Indeede your Pope in his doctrine , dooth as rightly succeede Saint Peter at Rome , as the Turke doth succeed Saint Iames at Ierusalem , and as the Scribes and Pharises did Moses , in whose chayre they sate , when they crucified the Sonne of God. Ta. I hope you make no doubt but that the Pope is Saint Peters successor , and that the chayre wheron he now sitteth at Rome was first Saint Peters seate . Pa. I vnderstand not what you meane by the Popes chayre , & by Saint Peters seate , whether you meane it by any Throne or Tabernacle , or by some other Tribunall , or what manner of stoole it should be , that you call Saint Peters seate . Ta. I beleeue you well , for Protestants ( God knowes ) are not onely ignorant , but they are likewise blind and senfeles in those thinges , that doth appertaine to the misteryes of the Catholicke Church , but for your better satisfaction , and to giue you true weeting of Peters Seate what it is : you that are so full of scripture cannot be ignorant where Christ in the 23. of Mathewe tolde his Disciples that the Scribes and Pharises did sit on Moses chayre , & willed them therefore ( in respect of their place ) both to heare and beleeue them , being as they were successors vnto Moses ▪ then the like of Rome where Peter was sometimes Bishop , and where he constantly preached Christ crucified , must therefore necessarily be the Seate of Peter , and this holy Sea of Rome is it , which Peter hath left to his successors , and we may as truly say that the Pope doth now sit on Peters Seate , as Christ told his Disciples , that the Scribes and Pharises did sit on Moses Chayre . Pa. There haue beene many papistes that haue taken great paynes to proue that Peter was Bishop of Rome , but there was yet neuer any one of them coulde make it so apparant , but that wee might deny & that by good authority , that peter was euer at Rome at all : but let it be granted that Peter were at Rome , doth it therefore follow that the Sea of Rome must be Peters Seate ? Peter preached in many places before hee came to Rome ( if euer hee were there at all ) as it appeareth in the Actes of the Apostles , and by the testimonie of your owne Legende , Peter was a long time at Antioche , and why should not Antioche , or any other place where Peter taught and preached , challenge a superioritie as far foorth as Rome ? Ta. I see I must render you a reason for the matter , will it please you now to vnderstand , that besides Peters being at Rome , Peter likewise dyed at Rome , and suffered vnder Nero , & therfore the place more holy , and worthy of authoritie . Pa. May it please you now to heare me to render you the like reason , our Sauiour Iesus Christ was crucified and dyed at Ierusalem , for the sinnes of the worlde , and therefore in the worke of our redemption , his power is more ●ull and ample at the citie of Ierusalem , then it is in any other place where he hadde formerly taught and preached . You say Protestants are blinded , but if papisteswere not both blind and out of their wits besides , they would neuer gather such conclusions whereby to vpholde the pride of their pope , that be cause Peter was at Rome , therefore the Sea of Rome must be Saint Peters seate : but how hangeth this together , where Christ in the 23. of Mathew , tolde his Disciples that the Scribes and Pharises did sit on Moses Chayre , what was ment by Moses chayre in this place ? it could not be meant by the citie of Ierasalem , as the papistes would haue Rome to be the Seate of Peter , because ( as they surmise ) Peter was at Rome , but Moses was neuer at Ierusalem , neither in the Synagogue , neither in the Temple , nor in any part of the country that was neare about it : why then the Chayre of Moses , which Christ here spake of , was nothing else but the doctrine of Moses , which hee hadde formerly taught and left vnto them , and which Christ in this place willed his Disciples to heare , and likewise to followe what the Scribes and Pharises sayd and taught but not to doe as they did , to followe their sayinges , but not their doinges : euen so likewise , Peters Seate , Peters Keyes , and Peters doctrine , are all one and the selfe same thing : but this doctrine of the preaching of the Gospell , your Pope hath abolished at Rome , and in the place thereof hee hath set vp the preaching of his owne lawes , of his owne decrees , and of his owne traditions : and therefore he sitteth not on the seat of Peter , but in the Seate of Antichrist , in the Chayre of pestilence , and for Peters comming to Rome , it can doe your Pope no good at all , he may well bragge a little of the matter : but it will not serue his turne . Ta. Thus you would conclude that Saint Peters seate , consisted in nothing more then in the preaching of the Gospell . And by this you woulde depriue him not onely of his Patrimony , but also of his Dignity : Saint Peter is little beholding to Protestants , for of him that was called the Prince of the Apostles , they would make him to be but Minimus Apostolorum , but if to preach the Gospell , be to sit in Peters Seate , was it not Peter to whom Christ especially recommended the feeding of his flocke ? And what is meant by the feeding of the sheepe , but the preaching of the word , and ministring of the sacraments , which as it was commended to Peter especially , so it remaineth a precept for euer to the Popes that are his successors ? And was it not to Peter againe to whom Christ sayd I haue prayd for thee Peter that thy faith might not fayle ? what malitious impietie then in Protestantes , to spurne against that Principality , that Christ himselfe hath confirmed , not onely to Peter himselfe , but to the rest that bee his successors in the holy sea of Rome . Pa. First for this prioritie that papistes would so faine ascribe to Peter aboue the rest of the Apostles , I say our Sauiour Christ hath long sithens determined , when in the 10. of Saint Markes Gospell , hee told them that there shoulde bee no precedencie amongst them , nor the one to bee accounted more worthy then the other , and therefore flatly decreed betweene them that hee that would aspire to be greatest , the same should be least : now for Saint Peter , esteeme him as you please , choose how you will account him to be either Maximus or Minimus . But what blockishnes is in papists to thinke that because Christ commanded Peter to feede his flocke , that this precept therefore was giuen but to Peter himselfe , as though that commandement to feede the flocke of Christ did not belong as farre foorth to all the Apostles , as it did to Peter . I will tell you Syr Tady , there is not so simple a minister in the Church of God ( that hath cure of soules , ) but according to his measure , is as straightly tyed to the feeding of Christes flocke , as euer was any Pope of Rome : or as Peter , or as Paul , or as any other of the twelue Apostles . And now for your Popes , that you say are successours vnto Peter , if wee shoulde looke into the foode , what it is they haue distributed , and consider of the diligence they haue vsed in performing this precept thus left vnto Peter , we should find that in feeding the sheepe , they haue poysoned the pasture : they haue infected & corrupted it with the venemous leauen of their owne lawes and traditions , and in stead of giuing foode , they haue fleeced the flocke , they haue made a shambles of the sheepe , & haue murthered and massacred the innocent lambes : such hauocke your Popes haue kept amongst the Saintes of God , and yet they would be accounted to be Peters successors : but what a counterfeit Hypocrite is your Pope , that vnder a shew of humility will professe himselfe to be Seruus seruorum , and yet will take vpon him to controule , and dominere ouer Emperours and Kinges : and because Christ hath sayd , I haue prayd for thee Peter that thy faith shoulde not fayle , therefore ( say the papistes ) the Pope cannot erre , thus they doe wrest and wrythe holy scriptures , to serue their fleshly appetites , and as for Saint Peters Patrimonie , Saint Peters Seate , Saint Peters Keyes , Saint Peters Power , Saint Peters Authoritie , yea and Saint Peter himselfe , they are all made props and supporters to vphold the Popes pride . Ta. Why how now Patricke , what art thou out of thy wittes , wilt thou impugne saint Peters authority , or wilt thou denie that he hath absolute power , both to bind and to loose , either in heauen or in earth , as Christ himselfe hath giuen and warranted vnto him ? Pa. I denie him nothing , but that he had full power and authority by the preaching of the Gospel , both to bind & to loose , to open and to shut , and to doe all thinges in as large and ample maner as eyther Iames , or Iohn , Philip , or Bartholomew , or any other of the Apostles , whom our Sauiour himselfe after his resurrection , armed with equall authority , when in the 20. of Iohn , he sent them into the world , to preach to all nations . Ta. Thus I perceiue you can be contented that Peter shoulde march with the rest of the Apostles in equall ranke , but you will not admit him any supreame authority . Pa. If you can alleadge but any one place of scripture that doth giue vnto Peter , any more then the rest , you shall finde me apt enough to acknowledge it . Ta. Is not this confirmation enough , when Peter is the rocke , whereon Christ , himselfe said , he would build his Church ? Pa. I wonder papistes are not ashamed to vrge that place of scripture so grossely , Peter acknowledging Christ to be the sonne of God , our Sauiour answered ▪ Vppon thisrocke , I will builde my Church : the Pope would haue the rocke to bee Peter himselfe , whereon Christ promised to build his Church : when indeede it was the faith of Peter , confessing Christ to bee the sonne of God , for faith is the rocke whereon Christes Church is built : for who is of Christes Church , but he onely that beleeueth Christ to bee the sonne of God ? this faith is it against which the gates of Hel cannot preuaile . Ta. What malicious despight is this to depriue Saint Peter of his principalitie : giue him some preheminence for shame , if it be but because he was the first amongst the Apostles , that confessed Christ to be the sonne of God. Pa. It is truth , Peter was the first amongst the Apostles , that confessed Christ to be the sonne of God , and so he was the first againe that denyed his master , neither doe wee seeke to depryue that blessed Apostle of any pryoritie that the word of God doth allowe him , but rather to curtall your Idolatrous Pope , who by magnifiyng of Peter woulde thereby exalt himselfe , Peters name is vsed but to vpholde his pride : but if you haue no better proofes then these to confirme Peters greatnesse , heare what I can say in the negatiue , to proue that Peter was no greater then the rest of the Apostles . Ta. I woulde faine see that ( quoth blind Hewe ) for that would seeme strange amongst Catholickes . Pa. Why then to open the eyes of blind popish Catholikes , let them looke first into the Actes of the Apostles , Chap. 8. where the Apostles that were at Ierusalem , vnderstanding that the Samaritans had receiued the Gospell of Christ by the preaching of Philip , they immediately sent both Peter and Iohn , for the better confirmation of the Samaritans : this argueth that Peter had no such iurisdiction ouer the rest of the Apostles as our papistes doe dreame of , for then he could not haue beene sent , but Peter and Iohn were sent , as other priuate persons , to preach and minister to the Samaritans . And in the eleuenth of the Actes , when Peter hadde beene warned by a vision to goe to Cornelius , the rest of the congregation called him to an account , and after a sort rebuked Peter for entring the house of an vncircumcised person , and Peter was driuen in his owne excuse to recapitulate vnto them the whole maner of the vision how it appeared vnto him , and was warranted by the spirit of God : by this it doth appeare that Peter had no superioritie aboue the rest , but rather argueth an inferiority , then any place of principalitie : we reade how Paul againe not onely controled Peter about matters of circumcision , but also withstoode him to his face , in such sort as he that should reade ouer the second to the Galathians , would thinke that if there were any superioritie amongst the Apostles , it rather belongeth to Paul then to Peter : but there was no dominering amongst them , nor one greater then another , but as I haue sayde beefore , they marched all in one equalitie , both in power and authoritie . True it is that Peter did still shew himselfe to be of a more stirring and liuely spirit then the rest , and was more apt and readie both in propounding of questions , & in answering of demandes , which proceeded somtimes of ignorāce , as when he demāded of his master , whether it might not suffice to forgiue his enemie 7. times , thinking that to forgiue eyght had beene too much . Sometimes his readinesse in answering was inspired by the spirit of God , as when Christ demanded of his Disciples , whom they thought him to be , Peter immediately made answere , I say thou art the sonne of the liuing God : sometimes againe ouer much confidence of himselfe , made him to be somewhat too forwarde in his protestations , as in the 26. of Mathew , where Christ expostulating with his Disciples , tolde them that this night they shoulde all be offended by him , but Peter led partly by zeale , and partly by presumption answered , If all the world be offeded with thee , yet wil not I be offended with thee ▪ and yet the very same night he denyed him to a poore maid : and in the 16. chap. before , when Christ revealed to his Disciples that he must goe vp to Ierusalem , there to suffer many things , Peter rashly aduised him to shun the place , & not to goe thether at all . By these and other like places it doth appeare , that as Peter was of a more quicke and liuely spirite then the rest of the Apostles , so he was more foreward then the rest , eyther to speake or to do any thing as time and place did serue , or as he was fitted by occasion : And as the infirmities not onely of Peter , but also of many holy men besides , are registred in the holy scriptures , and left vnto vs for our example , so wee doe not cite these places of any spite or malice whereby to impugne Saint Peters Authoritie , but rather to make knowne the Popes tyrany , that hath a long time iuggled with the scriptures , and hath not onely made Saint Peter a couerture to his pompe and pride : but also many times abuseth the name of the liuing God himselfe , for where hee beginneth with this preamble : In the name of God , then commonly he contriueth some seruice to the Deuill . To winde vpp all therefore I say , that if that blessed Apostle Saint Peter , would arrogate but halfe so much to himselfe as our grosseheaded papistes will attribute to their Pope , hell fire were fitter for him then so great glory in the kingdome of heauen . Ta. I wonder how any presumptuous foole in the world dare auouch these blasphemies against the Vicar of Christ ? Pa. And I wonder as fast in what place of scripture you doe finde that Christ would haue any such Vicar , or howe the Pope should come to that title , that you speake of , to be the Vicar of Christ , but I wonder most of all that so many fooles will beleeue him but vpon his owne report : hauing neyther scrypture , script nor scroule to confirme it ? Ta. You haue forgotten your selfe Patricke : the matter is better warranted then you are aware on , how many notable Authors haue extolled the pope , so far that they make it Sacriledge to dispute of his factes , Heresie to doubt of his power , Paganisme , to disobey him , Blasphemie against the holy Ghost , to speake against his decrees and Canons . Pa. And presumption , not to goe to the Deuill with him for company . Ta. You may iest as you list , but what I haue deliuered is approoued by seuerall speciall authours , as it appeareth testified in their owne workes and writings . Pa. And is not Bonifacius , a holy Martyr of the Popes owne making , as good an authour as any of the rest ? whose wordes be these : If the Pope be found to neglect the saluation of himselfe , and his brethren , vnprofitable or slacke in his office , silent in that which is good , hurtfull to himselfe and to all others : yea , though he lead with him innumerable soules by heapes to the deuill of hell , yet let no mortall man find fault with , or reproue him for his doings . Ta. I will bee with you to the worldes end , sayth Christ : And therfore what soeuer Bonifacius hath written , if the Pope should erre as you haue sayd , this promise could not be kept . Pa. But to whom was that promise made thinke you ? was it to the Pope alone or to the whole Church ? Ta. I thinke the promise was made to all , but to the Pope especially , that is the head of the Church . Pa. Keepe that head still for your Romish Church , for the Church of God , knoweth no other head but Christ . Ta. But our Sauiour hath sayd , it is not possible that theelect should be seduced . Pa. Not possible they shoulde bee seduced to fall from God , but the elect may sinne , yet not vnto death , so they may erre , but not vnto destruction . Ta. I say that the promise of our Sauiour that Peters faith should not fayle , is enough for mee to conclude that the Pope cannot erre . Pa. Then you vnderstand Christes wordes after this sorte , I haue prayd for thee Peter that thy faith should not fayle , that is to say , notwithstanding my prayer for thee , thou thy selfe shalt denie me , and thy successors shall be heretickes , Idolaters , and ●unnagates from me . Ta. Make you what cauels you list in this matter , I doe conclude that the rulers of the Church must needes haue the holy Ghost . Pa. A happy conclusion for him that weares a mytre , and by this we may perceiue , how probable it is that the Pope can not erre . Ta. The Pope is the head of the Church , and Christes Vicar generall , heere vpon earth , and in matters of faith , the Pope can not erre . Pa. It is truely to bee proued , that not onely the Popes but that wholl Councels haue sometimes erred . Ta. That a Councell may erre , I will not gaine say , but for a Pope to be an hereticke were strange to bee told . Pa. No wonder at all , if your owne stories be true : Honorius dyed an hereticke , and was accursed after his death for heresie by a generall Counsell . Ta. Well , if it were so , there is but one , and one swallow ( they say ) maketh no summer . Pa. Why then there was one Pope that was a noted heretick : but if I should speake of many other abhominations that haue beene committed by Popes , sithens your third Bonifacius obteyned from that Paricide Phocas , the title of supremacy , were infinite to bee spoken of , and that the greatest number of your Popes for these 600. yeares last past , haue not entered by Canonicall election , but by violence , sedition , corruption , and bribery . Let your renowmed Abreuiator Apostolicus : Platina , beare witnes who complaineth : The Popedome ( sayth he ) was come to that passe , that he that could doe most with ambition or bribery , he onely obteyned the papall dignitie . Ta. This is but one doctors opinion , trifles of no account , the malicious reportes of heretickes . Pa. Then I perceiue one swallow wil make no summer with you nor one doctors opinion receiued in a matter of truth , but will you accept of good company , what say you to Sigebertus , Marianus , Scotus , Martinus , and your holy Abbot Barnarde , that haue all of them inucied against your Pope , insomuch that Frier Mantuan rayleth at Rome it selfe , giuing this admonishment , you that wish to liue godly , depart from Rome , for all thinges are there suffered , saue godlines . Ta. The Citty of Rome hath beene renowmed both for learning , and religion . Pa , The Citty of Rome is now infamed for all maner of abhomination . Ta. Rome beareth the same name shee did 12. hundred yeares agoe , and why should shee not chalenge the same vertues which then shee had ? Pa. Ierusalem was sometimes the holy citty , but nowe shee is become a shameles strumpet , and Niniuie was spared for her true repentance , but sithens confounded for her disobedience . Ta. You are so full of scripture Patricke , that there is no dealing with you , but if your Colledge doth teach this doctrine , I can tell you it will cracke your credite amongst your friendes heere in Ireland , but that paltry Schoolehouse will doe much harme heere in Ireland , it breedeth vpp heretickes apace , but if good counsayle might be accepted , I could aduise you of such a course that howsoeuer it would be auayleable for your profit , I am sure it would much better your credit . Pa. Good counsayle comes neuer out of season to a wise man , and as he may bee esteemed for a friend that will aduise it , so he is no lesse happy that hath wisedome to follow it . Ta. Then to shew my selfe a friend vnfeined , and to make you happy if you will not front your owne fortune , the matter that I would induce you vnto , is to spende some three or foure yeares study in any one of the Popes Seminaries , where you shoulde find a more readie and exact method & maner of teaching then hitherto you haue beene aquainted with all , and that forme of education , and training vp , as your Colledge at Dubline will neuer be able to afford . Pa. You meane amongst the Iesuites . Ta. I meane amongst the Iesuites , that holy societie , who for their great learning , and godly conuersation , are aboue all others most esteemed and renowmed : there you shall not onely perfect your owne knowledge with diuine wisedome , and vnderstanding , but you shall be further enabled for the good of your country , where at your returne , you shall be receiued and entertained , by the best inhabitants , not onely of the English people but throughout the whole realme of Ireland , who would not only receiue you into their houses , but who soeuer did sit at the table , your place should sure be aboue the salt . Pa. The sum of all is this , you woulde haue mee to leaue my studie heere at the Colledge , and for the bettering of mine vnderstanding I should trauaile to Rome , or to Remes , there to bee instructed amongst the Iesuites . Ta. You shall there both inrich your minde with knowledge , and aduance your credite with a reuerent estimation . Pa. Your Iesuites indeede are so famous for their learning , that they can make themselues blinde by seeing too much , they can set the holy scriptures at a iarre , and they are as curious in searching out the vertue of the wordes , as they be carefull to subuert the wordes of the truth : what is it which they can not vtterly ouerthrow with their fiery blastes of thundering wordes , by their engins of Definitions , Distinctions , Diuisions , Sylogismes , Figures Allegories ? then they haue so many generals and specials , with such glosinges and expoundings , that they will presume to measure Gods word and his workes with their logicall Sophismes . The puritie of religion is inspired from aboue , and not to be comprehended by diuiding , defining , compoūding , nor by any other sophisticall manner of contending . A miserable and a most vngratious study , that doth nothing else but study how to erre . Who are they but your Iesuites that haue brought the cause of Christ to a meere brabble of wordes , whom neyther the weakenes of their owne cause , nor the force of the truth , nor the defence thereof so many times approued against them , by the Authoritie of holy scriptures can content or disswade them to forsake the way of their contentions , but that they are still whetting themselues to trouble the Church of God : and to inuey against the truth . Ta. You were best to take a little breath Patricke , and then you may fall to your rayling againe : was there euer a more malicious invectiue breathed out against that holy societi , that all the world doth admire aswell for their learning as for their integritie of life ? Pa. I doe not maruell ( Sir Tady ) though the night Owle that hath but a scriking voyce her selfe , should sometimes commend the Cuckoe for her sweete and pleasant singing . Ta. And the Cuckoe for a plaine song may compare with your Nightingall . Pa. So might Pan with Apollo , by the iudgement of Midas . Ta. I see you are too confident in your owne conceit , I wisht you well and I would I coulde haue preuailed with you for your owne good . Pa. I am afraid you doe preuaile with too many , that by these alurements , you blindly leade to your Romish captiuitie . Ta. Doe you call them captiues that are drawne to our Catholicke Communitie , whom we chearily feede and foster vp with the milke of our holy mother Church ? Pa. The milke that you feede withall , is but Boyne Clubbo , it is not the sweete milke that is drawne from the Gospell . Ta. Doe you disproue that foode , that is aswell approued by the Pope , as by all the auncient doctors of the Church ? Pa. They must bee your owne doctors that must helpe you , for I am sure the doctors and fathers of the Primitiue Church , had little to doe with your religion . Ta. And who be those that you terme to be our own doctors ? Pa. Who should they be but the pillers of your Church , Bonauentura , Occam , Scotus , Thomas Aquinas with an infinite number such other like that be of your popish rable . Ta. Our religion is not so much propped vp by them as by the holy scriptures . Pa. Prooue but that , and I will promise you to goe to Masse three times a weeke . Ta. Is it not proofe enough that hath beene confirmed by the Pope himselfe many hundred yeares agoe and all those confuted that haue sought to impugne it . Pa. Your Pope confureth more by poysons and by treasons , then he doth by arguments or by any other authoritie either of words or writings , that are drawne from the holy Scriptures . Ta. You may make as many cauels as you list , but I say the successor of Peter cannot erre , and therefore the church is safest when it is ruled by him for whose faith Christ hath prayed , that it might not faile . Pa. Are we come to that againe , I haue already named you a Pope , that hath erred and dyed an hereticke , and I tell you yet againe that the diuines of Paris openly confuted the conclusiōs and articles of Iohn the 22. and got the same to bee condemned before Philipe King of France with the sound of Trumpets : but in whose name will not he craftely set forth his errours , which dare falsely set forth himselfe in the place of the Sonne of God. And haue not some other of your Popes both corrupted , and falsified Counsels , Canons , and Decrees , and all to vpholde their pride ? Ta. Shew me but where such a pranke hath beene played , and I will giue you the Bucklers . Pa. Where it was decreed by the Counsell of Chalcedon , that Constantinople should be aduanced in ecclesiasticall matters , as farre forth as Rome , they shamefully forged that Constantinople should not be aduanced so far forth as Rome , a horrible corruption of a Counsell , turning an affirmatiue to a negatiue . Ta. And what can you make of that , but Vitiūscriptoris , an ouersight in the writer , a matter easely ouerslipt . Pa. These be your shamelesse shifts , when matters bee apparantly proued against you , but what haue your Romanistes left vncorrupted , no not the holy Scriptures themselues , and howe many bookes haue beene forged and foy sted in seuerall mens names , some of them calling their owne dreames and fantazyes the Gospell of Thomas , of Barthelmew , and of Barnabe : and what Epistles , Canons and Decretalles , haue beene published vnder the names of Clemens Cletus and Anacletus , and of diuerse others well proued to be but forgeries . And how many Monkes and Fryers , seeking to coloure their fayned holinesse , with the reuerent titles of auncient Fathers , pre fixed the names of Augustine , Ambrose , Hierome , Cyprian , Isydore , and of many others , before diuerse of their owne fantasies , and forgeries , thereby prouiding to strengthen their kingdome of blindnesse and errour , the which if by the wisedome of God , had not beene playnely approued and manyfestly founde out , wee might haue reuerenced a company of lousie Monkes & Fryers vnder the names and titles of auncient and learned fathers . Ta. Lette them answere for themselues that haue done these thinges , and I beleeue if your owne mynisterie were well sifted we might find amongst them some that in their conuersation of life , are not answerable to that semblance that they make when they be in the pulpite . Pa. Haue you no better shiftes then these whereby to excuse your impieties , let the world then iudge of your religion what it is , that is thus propped vp with such counterfeit stuffe , lyes , fables , dreames , visions , vnwritten verities , and impossibilities : Popery is a religion that can content it selfe , with knowing vntruthes , without further search to find out the truth . Ta. They are but heretickes and schismytickes that will thus reporte : our religion is approued by the Pope , and who is fitter to decide of truth , then hee that is the supreame heade of the Church . Pa. And although that supreame authority were alowed , which your Pope coulde yet neuer proue , yet it will bee sayde , that the right directions vnto the truth , must bee discerned by the doctrine and not by the dignitie . Ta. Then who shall bee iudge of this truth which you speake of ? Pa. God is truth , and who shall be iudge of God. Ta. That God is truth it cannot bee denyed but of matters in controuersie who shall be iudge of truth . Pa. Who but he that shall iudge all at the last day , and in the meane time , he onely is the supreame iudge of truth : The Father hath committed all iudgement to the Sonne , and my iudgement is true , saith Christ. Iohn . 5. 8. Ta. But if the scriptures bee mistaken or misinterpreted , who shall then giue censure but the Pope ? Pa. This strife ( sayeth Saint Augustine ) requireth a Iudge , Iudicet ergo Christus . Let Christ be Iudge : and Optatus writing of the same matter sayeth , There can be no Iudgement , we must seeke for a Iudge from heauen , but why knocke we at heauen , when we haue his will here in the Gospell : And we are further taught , in the Gospell it selfe : They haue Moses and the Prophets , let them heare them . Ta. You are loath I perceiue that the Pope shoulde bee your iudge , yet when he speaketh truth , I hope you wil vouchsafe him audience . Pa. No doubt but so long as he speaketh truth , wee will both heare him and beleeue him , and so we would do by Balams Asse . Ta. Then you will beleeue nothing for truth but what you finde testified by the scriptures . Pa. Nothing else but what the scripture doth approue , for your Mongrell Monkes and Fryers haue so corrupted and counterfeyted the auncient fathers , that wee dare trust nothing but what is concordant and agreeing with the scriptures . Ta. But doe you not finde it testified that there were manie things done by Christ that were not written ? Pa. And yet a very foolish presumption to impugne thinges that are written , vppon supposall of those things that are vnwritten : and Basyle giueth vs a caueat in the matter , It is a manifest fall from faith , and a sinne that argueth infinite pride , eyther to leaue that which is written , or to admit of that which is not written . Ta. This common frequent that is had to the scriptures by euery ignorant man , hath opened the gap to all ▪ kind of diuision , of heresies , schismes , sects and disorders . Pa. By the light which we haue receiued from the scriptures , your holy father can neyther merchādize the soules , nor emptie the purses of so many men as he was wont to doe . Ta. I tell you it is not necessary , that the vnlearned and ignorant people , should either looke into the Scriptures , or vnderstande our prayers . Pa. Nor may they not heare them reade , when they come to Church ? Ta. Wherefore should they else come to church but to heare both Matins and Masse ? Pa. Then these words Beati qui audiunt verbum Dei , et custodiunt ipsum ; is thus to be vnderstoode , Blessed are they that heare the word of God , and knowes not what it meaneth . Ta. Our doctrine is very curious not for all to vnderstand . Pa. Pray God it be not as dangerous , for any to followe . Ta. If there be any danger in the seruice of the Church , it must be amongst Protestants , where euery blinde minister ▪ may goe vp into a pulpite and teach what he list . Pa. Indeede the Protestant ministers haue not halfe so manie trickes and turns , whips and slips , mops and moes , as your priest that is at Masse . Ta. Euery vnlearned Catholicke , doth knowe his time , when to stand vp , when to kneele downe , when to adore , when to say Amen , when to come , and when to goe . Pa. Indeede vse doth worke misteries : and long practise hath taught them to keepe their Row , to kneel , when they heare the Sance-bell ring , to adore , when they see the Hoast ouer the priests head , to stand vp when he is walking of his statiōs , from the one ende of the Altar to the other , but may this knowledge serue thinke you for saluation ? Ta. Doe you make doubt of that ? if the people but know this and when to say Amen it is enough . Pa. How vnwise was Saint Paul then not to foresee this method , for as it should seeme by his Epistle to the Corinthians , the people were as good to say Amen , when the Sance-bell ringeth as to the priest when he mumbleth vp his Liturgies , which neyther himselfe nor they vnderstande . Ta. I will not speake of the peoples knowledge but I say hee is but a sory priest that doth not vnderstand asmuch as is contayned in his Portes . Pa. It is an easie matter indeede , for a priest to say Masse out of his owne booke , but to vnderstand what hee readeth it were a goodly matter to finde one amongst tenne that could doe it . Ta. To reade well and distinctly is as much as we require , wee are not so precise as your puritan Protestants . Pa. Yet none more ignorant then your puritan papists , as one of your Catholicke priests approued himselfe at the Christening of a childe . Ta. I neuer heard of the name before , nor I beleeue your selfe did euer know a papist that was a puritan . Pa. Ireland is full of them , where we may find more precise folly amongst the papistes of that country , then is to bee founde in Italy or Spaine . Ta. Your country-men I perceiue are little beholding to you , but out with your ta●e of the christening of a child , wher you say a papist did showe himselfe a puritan . Pa. If you will haue it for a tale , let it passe for a tale , a true tale it is , and thus it followeth , but yet within the compasse of memorie : an honest townsman whose name was Browne , had kept his eldest sonne so long to schooll , that in the beginning of Queene Maries raygne ( being growne vp to mans estate ) for his great learning and clarkeship was thought fitte to be made a massing priest : by the aduise of his friendes , and his owne assent , he tooke orders and where beefore hee was called by the name of Tom Browne : by his priestly dignitie , he had this adition , and was cald by the name of Sir Thomas Tom Browne : It was not long but he was inuested with a benefice , and a childe was brought to him to be baptized : our priest that had neuer christned before , betooke himselfe aforehand to looke ouer his booke , and reading till he came to Abrenuntias Sathanum et omniaopera , at these wordes he began to blesse himselfe , and making the signe of the Crosse on his forehead , he called to his assistance the Clarke that stood fast by , and demanded of him what those wordes might meane , the Clarke that was as ignorant as master parson himselfe , tould him he vnderstoode no latine , and therefore coulde not satisfie him : whereuppon Syr Thomas was strucke into a great amazement , for he vnderstoode neuer a worde but Sathanum , and that he was sure was latine for the deuill : And for the diuelles name to be vsed in the christening of a childe , hee thought was far vnfit for so godly an exercise ; thinking therefore the worde to bee mistaken , would needes seeke out a better to supply the place , & scraping out Sathanum , he put in Christum : And thus where it stood before ▪ wilt thou forsake the diuell and all his workes , Syr Thomas had in this sort mended the matter , Wilt thou forsake Christ and all his workes : to the which the gossips in the childes name must answer Abrenuncio , I forsake them . Ta. I thought your tale would tend to a good purpose , but admit that this were true , yet here was no puritāisme , the worst you can make of it , was but a little mistaking , and that proceeded from a godly zeale , and a religious intent . Pa. If you had ioyned ignorance with your zeale , you hadde shot something neare the marke , but by this you may perceyue how necessarie it is that both priest and people should vnderstād what is reade and taught in the Church . Ta. In our prayers we speake to God , and not to men , & there fore I see no reason , why euery man should looke to vnderstand what we reade or what we say . Pa. But it is the people and not God , that needeth the priests voyce in the Church prayer . Ta. The priest is the mouth of the Church , and therefore hee must speake for the whole congregation . Pa If it be needfull for the priest to speake , it is as necessary for the people to vnderstand . Ta. It is needfull for the priest to speake and to make intercession for the people vnto God , but in such a language as is acceptable vnto God. Pa. God with whom there is no respect of persons , hath lesse respect to tongues . Ta. The Hebrue Greeke and Latine , were all three sanctified in our Sauiours Crosse , and therefore it hath beene long sithens decreede by the holy Church , that God should be honored and serued in one of those three learned languages . Pa. But who set vppe those learned titles , was it Christ or Pylate ? Ta. What though they were set vp by Pylate , those three languages were onely dedicated to the Crosse . Pa. Then Pilates impietie , that deliuered Christ to bee crucified , proclaiming the sonne of God for a traytor , and to aspire the Crowne of Iurie in Hebrue Greeke and Latine , must prescribe a rule to the Church of God against the Apostle Corin. 14. Ta. It is enough to say that the Church hath thus decreede , and a good Catholicke , should admit of nothing else , nor neuer seeke further . Pa. You were best to sticke fast to that ankerholde , for if the authoritie of your Pope be not able to countervaile both Peter and Paul , yea and to waigh vp Christ himselfe , your whole religion is but Idolatry , superstition and hypocrisie . Ta. I tell you for the approbation of our religion , although we had no Scriptures to helpe vs , yet we haue such other circum stances , whereby to confirme it , as I hope the proudest Protestant in all your Colledge , will be ashamed to make any doubt in the matter . Pa. Our Protestants in the Colledge would be ashamed to make doubt of any thing that is apparantly true . Ta. But they must haue scriptures for their confirmation , I am sure they doe looke for that . Pa. If it be for doubts in religion , for matters of faith , or for thinges that doe concerne our saluation , they will beleeuc nothing but what is testified and to be approued by the Scriptures . Ta. Then they stand vppon good securitie ; and so a man may trust a Dogge with a shoulder of mutton : but these are vnbeleeuing Apostles , that will not acknowledge Christ to be risen , vnlesse with Thomas Dydimus , they may feele the print of his woundes with their owne fingers : but blessing light on them , that haue not seene and yet will beleeue , the Reuelations , that haue bin sent , the Visions that haue beene seene , and the Myracles that haue bin wrought , to the comfort of Catholickes , and the confirmation of their religion ▪ & let all the Diuines that be in your Colledge , that doth so much impugne our Catholicke religion , bring foorth but one Myracle that doth make for them , and we will drop ten for one against them , for the approuing of ours . Pa. Indeed we bring no Myracles whereby to fortifie our religion , but such as were performed by Christ and his Apostles , many hundred yeares sithens . Ta. And they be old ande ouer worne , but we haue them euerie day spicke and span newe , Miracles vppon Myracles , one in anothers necke , and those most admirable and strange to be reported . Pa. And I thinke no lesse incredible to be beleeued . Ta. For the certainety of them there is none will doubt but heretickes : and now if I should speake but of halfe the Myracles that are expressed in our Catholicke hystories , I might easely find matter wherewith to begin , but neuer finde time when to make an ende : I will therefore ouerpasse our Golden Legend , a whole volume of Miracles extant in Folio , besides many other that are contained in one holy booke of Conformities , where mention is made aswell of birdes as beastes , that came flocking together about Saint Francis , to heare him preach , and howe the Nighting gales , and other singing birdes , woulde come helpe him to sing Masse ▪ but these are of an old date , I will therefore come to new matter : what Myracles haue beene lately performed by our Lady of Hall , set downe by Iustus Lypsius , a most learned Iesuite , who now but within these very few yeares , write two learned Bookes full of Catholicke doctrine , in the prayse of two Images , the one of them called our Lady of Hall , the other by the name of our Lady of Sichem , both of them the Images of our blessed Lady the Virgine Mary : the which two Images ( as Lypsius affirmeth ) haue performed greater myracles , then the scriptures do testifie were done by Christ himselfe . There is mention made of ten seuerall persons that were deliuered in a great extremitie , from the danger of death , but by thinking of our Lady of Hall. Seuen others that were already dead , were restored agayne to life , being but layed before her Image : now for curing of all maner of diseases , as to make the dumbe to speake , the deafe to heare , the blind to see , the lame to goe , they are common things matters of small account , shee dooth them with ease and great dexterity . But amongst a number of other Myracles , I will deliuer one for the comfort of Falconers . Lypsius confidently reporteth in this foresaide booke , that an angry disposed Lord , would haue hanged his Falconer for loosing of his hawke , and when the rope was about his necke , and hee ready to bee executed , hee did but call to his mind our Lady of Hall , and at the very instant of his thought , the hawke came flying , and lighted on his shoulders : and so saued his life . I thinke I might weary the wisest man in Ireland , if I shoulde set downe all what Lypsius hath reported of these two Ladies . Pa. Doth your Lady of Hall vse to take no money for these cures you speake of , doth she all these thinges gratis , without any further consideration ? Ta. What miserable wretch would be so vngratefull as not to bestowe an offering of the mother of mercy . Pa. Then I see it is not out of kinde for Ladies to take offerings , but doe you call your Lady of Hall , the mother of mercy ? Ta. Patricke be not an enemy to thine owne destruction , doe but consider of this that followeth and vse thine owne iudgement . This booke thus published by Lypsius of the Myracles that were performed by our Lady of Hall , was contradicted by a Protestant minister of the lowe countries ▪ whereuppon Clarus Bonarscius , a famous and a most learned Iesuite , that was abiding in Antiwarpe , but within these three or foure yeares , which worthie champion of the Church of Rome , incountered this deprauing Protestant , this lowe countrey minister , writing a booke agaynst him , which he intituled . The great Theater of the Iesuites honour : in which booke amongst a great deale of other Catholicke matter in a most eloquent and learned manner , he inveyeth and bitterly rageth against Protestants in generall , forbearing to disgrace neither prince nor pesant that are not deuoted to the Catholicke Church of Rome , and was not ashamed to detect and reprooue some Protestant princes particularly without any respect either to their estate or dignitie : & hauing thus clarkly rayled and raged against them : he spendeth a little time to speake of his friend Lip sius , whom when he had highly extolled for his Catholick zeale in writing of those 2. bookes : he composeth an excellent poeme in the honour of our Lady of Hall , the which he dedicateth to her selfe and to her young sonne . In this Poeme , amongst other Catholicke matters he confidently affirmeth , the milke of our Lady to bee equall in comparison with the bloud of Christ , and that our sinnes are cured aswell by her milke as by his bloud . That God hath diuided his king dome with our Lady , reseruing iustice to himselfe and yeelding mercy to her . That a man may appeale from God to our Lady , and that sins are sooner forgiuen by her intercession , then by the mediation of Iesus Christ. Pa. But is it possible ( Syr Tady ) that any such booke shoulde be extant as you report , wherein should bee published so horrible blasphemy ? Ta. Are you not ashamed to vse any such tearmes , or to aske any such question ? I tell you there were two bookes first written by Iustus Lypsius wherin he deliuered the Myracles that were performed by our Lady of Hall , and by our Lady of Sichem , and for this booke intituled The great I heater of the Iesuites honour , written by Bonarscius , in the defence of Lypsius , it hath beene thrice printed within these foure or fiue yeares , now last past , twice at Antiwarpe , and once at Paris , with alowance and authoritie in both places : and for the better approbation of the matter , one other learned father Possiuine a thirde Iesuite , who in his Apparatus sacer , hath giuen notice to the world , that Lypsius did publish such awo●ke , and giues him speciall commendations for his paynes taking in the Catholicke cause ▪ who would thinke now that these bookes could be thus published without controlment , but that they are warranted by our holy father himselfe , and by the whol Church of Rome , for vndoubted truthes . But what need I trauell to fetch home myracles from beyond the seas , when Ireland it selfe doth so plentifully afforde them , & that in euery quarter of the Realme . What Myracles are continually wrought at Saint Patrickes purgatory : at the Holy Crosse at Saint Sondayes well : and doth not all the north of Ireland admire the Myracles that haue bin wrought by Saint Colume Kell ? But let me drawe somewhat neare to your Colledge it selfe , are you not eye witnesses howe euery 17. of March , what flocking there is of men women and children , to that same holy sanctified poole , Saynt Patrickes well , I hope you doe not thinke the wholl multitude , that doe so yearely frequent the place to bee starke mad , to come running thither so thicke , if they did not finde somesanctitie in the water ? I warrant you they are not so arrant fooles , as a nūber of those that do vse to take Tabacco , that wil be stil stuffing thēselues with smoak but vpō a vaine conceit . But is not this a miracle especially to be admired , to see so many women Tauerne keepers , that for conscience sake , wil eate no flesh on Frydaies , that some of them do not ride in a Cart on Saturdayes . Pa. Syr Tady , if these myracles bee any confirmation to your Romish religion , I could furnish your store , with such like , as for the reuerence of the Reader I shame , and for the honour of God I feare to speake of . But this is a myracle in our eyes , to see that the papistes should affye themselues in a religion , that is but propped vp with such stuffe as this , & we do asmuch wōder to see their blindnes , that wil be drawne from the truth of Gods word to beleeue such grosse and palpable follyes , lyes fables , and fantazies of their owne deuising but that the Apostle hath giuen vs this caueat : And therefore God shall send them strong delusions , that they should beleeue Lyes , that all they might be damned , which beteeued not the truth , but had pleasure in vnrighteousnes . 2. Thes . 2. Ta. Do you callthese fables , lyes fantasies , & I cannot tell what , that are thus fortified and confirmed , vnder these authorities ? Pa. I say , we may boldly pronounce your Romish religion to bee accursed , that would bring that blessed Virgin in comparison with God and Iesus Christ , thereby eclipsing the glory of Gods mercy , and the worthines of Christes satisfaction . Ta. If you fall a cursing of those that doe giue honour to the Queene of heauen her selfe , what will you pronounce against those that doe both honour and worshippe to the Image of our Lady ? Pa. Doe not you thinke that the worshipping of Images is flat Idolatry ? Ta. Yes if you meane the worshipping of the Idoles of the heathen . Pa. I meane the Images of the virgin Mary , of Peter , of Paul , or of Christ himselfe . Ta. Doe you call the Image of Christ an Idoll ? Pa. If it be worshipped , it is an Idoll , and the burning of Incense vnto it , is flat Idolatry . Ta. Dare any damned hereticke auouch this ? Pa. It is approued by the second commandement , Thou shalt not make to thy selfe any grauen Image , nor the likenes of any thing , that is in heauen aboue , or in the earth beneath . Ta. But doth this precept touch the Image of Christ , or our blessed Lady ? Pa. It toucheth any thing that is made with handes , that is worshipped , bowed , or kneeled vnto . Ta. This can not bee vnderstoode of the Image of the true God , for if the Images of Princes may be reuerenced , and no Idolatry committed , much more the Image of God. Pa. Earthly similitudes of mans owne making , must not controle the heauenly preceptes of Gods owne giuing : the Images of Princes , of those meaner personages , may well bee tollerated , and yet to bowe the knee , to lift vp the hand , or to doe worshipp to such an Image , there is no doubt , but it were Idolatry . God hath commaunded and that directly that no grauen Image should be made , now if any grauen Image of God might be worshipped , why might it not bee made , since it cannot bee worshipped before it bee made ? Ta. O monstrous abhomination , what an heresie is this , that the Image of the true God should be accounted for an Idoll . Pa. The Image of the true God , being made with handes , is a false God , and no likenes of his , but a lewde and a foolish imagination of those that would so imagine it , for what resemblance hath a dead stocke , or a stone , fashioned like a man , and painted or gilded ouer , to the glorious , inuisible , and infinite maiesty of the euer liuing God : and how dare any man defend the worshipper of such an Image , when God himselfe hath accursed the maker . Ta. Idolatries be those when they be done to the Images thēselues , but our worshippings are not such , for wee worshippe not the earthly matter or shape , but rather the things that are represented by them . Pa. So did the Israelites , when they set vpp the golden Calfe , to testifie their thankfullnes for their deliuerance out of Egypt , they erected an Image vnto God their deliuerer , and proclaymed a holy day ( not to the Calfe ) but to the Lord. Ta. May we not giue some reuerence to the Image of Christ though he be in heauen , aswell as you do to the Thrones and Letters of Princes , when themselues be not present ? Pa. What grosser Idolatry may be committed , if wee may not worship the creatures thēselues , that are the workes of Gods handes : and yet will adore and worship those Images and Idols , that are but the workes of mens handes . Ta. Is is not acceptable vnto GOD to haue the shape of his Sonne alwayes before our eyes , that we may the rather honour him in our hearts ? Pa. And sith without Images we must remember the Father that made vs ( which cannot be resembled to any similitude ) why should we forget the Sonne that hath redeemed vs , but wee must haue an Image at our elbowe , to put vs in remembrance . Ta. It is testified that the Apostles themselues did both make and worshippe Images . Pa. It had neede be a stronge testimonye that should confirme that for a certayne truth . Ta. You will hardly beleeue that Christ himselfe made the likenesse of his owne face and sent it to king Abaragus . Pa. I could sooner beleeue hee sent it to the Queene rather then to the king himselfe ; Ta. And why more to the Queene then to the king himselfe . Pa. Perhaps he might send it to the Queene for a loue token Ta. Patricke where haue you learned to speake of these nippinge iestes that you haue in such a readynes . Pa. Sir Tady where haue you learned to shake of these shameles lyes which you haue in such abundance . Ta. I tell ye it is testified for certayne that hee sent it to king Abaragus himselfe . Pa. I tell ye I cannot beleeue any of these obscure fooleryes . Ta. You will say it is but a fable , that the Image of our Lady was drawne by Saint Luke . Pa. But do you find this to be set downe for a wrytten verity ? Ta. What else : it is testified and confidently deliuered by Simion Metaphrastes an auncient wryter . Pa. Doth not your auncyent author make mention who it was that made our Ladyes Coach ? Ta. As though our Lady that bare Christ did euer ride in a Coache . Pa. Why not ryde in a Coach aswell as haue her Picture drawne , where it is common amongst Ladyes in this age : and me thinkes Simion Metaphrastes should aswel haue made mention of the one as he did of the other . Ta. I see you are too full of scoffes , and I could wish you to leaue them . Pa. I do but tosse you backe your owne balles such as you your selfe first serued to the house , and myne answers I am sure are not so ridiculous as the matters you appose . Ta. I appose you with nothing , but what hath beene testified by the fathers of the church , whose wrytinges , although many of them be perished yet being left vnto vs by tradition they must be beleeu●d . Pa. And vnder the names and tytles of these Catholik fathers , no small store of monkishe Impietyes haue bine forged , but the wisdome of God hath so prouided for his church that they are well enough discouered . Ta. I perceiue you are very vehement against the worshipping of Images , what say you then to the Inuocation of the holy Saints themselues , may we call vppon them in the time of necessitye ? Pa. Come vnto me ( sayth our sauiour ) all you that are laden and I will ease you . if he himselfe hath so louingly called vs if we refuse him and seeke toanother , it is of some distrust that wee haue of him , and what is that but to make God a lyer and not to think him true in the promise he hath made vnto vs. Ta. Well I perceiue there will nothing disgest with you but Scriptures , looke into the 5. of Iob , how like you of those words call now if any will answer thee , and turne thee to some of the Saints : Pa. The wordes of Elyphaze one of Iobs friends who speaketh not of the Saints departed , but wisheth Iob to consider , whither any of the godly then liuing did so rage and murmure , against God as he did . Ta. But that God will accept of other mens prayers for vs , looke into the 4 ▪ 2 of Iob , when his wrath being kindled against Elyphaze and his friends , hee would not heare themselues , but accepted Iobs prayers for them . Pa. Elyphaze and his two friends , because they contemned Iob , and preferred their owne ryghteousnes : God therefore to pull downe their pride , and to giue a testimony of Iobs Innocency faith and patience , sendeth Elyphaze and his felowes to Iob promising to accept his prayers for them : but papystes are neare driven when they must fetch confirmation out of the old testament for the Inuocation of Saints when their owne Iesuites doe confesse that before Christs ascention , praying to Saints were not in vse especially of those that were dead and deseased , which by the opinion of the papistes were in Limbo , till Christs ascention : Ta. The fathers of the old testament did often alledge and appose against godes wrath the names and merytes of the holy Patryarches remember thy seruant Abraham , Isack and Iacob , for thy seruante Dauides sake refuse not thine annoynted , and why may we not then stand vpon Saints merites . Pa. But these Inuocations thus made , doe not depend vpon the merytes of those holy Patryarches but vppon the couenant and promise which God had made vnto them , and to their posterity : so sayth Moses , remember Abraham , Isack , and Iacob , thy seruantes to whom thou hast sworne by thine owne selfe that thou wilt multiply their seede , and such other places there be sundry in the old testament . Ta. It should stand with reason and common sence that like as we are first brought into the presence of earthly kinges by fauourites , and such as are in grace and lykinge about him euen so doe Saints , by their holy prayers , bring vs to the presence and fauour of the kinge of heauen . Pa. Call vppon me in the day of trouble saith God by his Prophet , and I will heare thee : if any man sinne ( saith Saint Iohn ) we haue an aduocate with the father Iesus Christ . No man cometh to the father but by the sonne , and whatsoeuer we shall aske in Christes name we shall obtayne the same vndoubtedly . These and many otherlike places we haue in the Scriptures that sende vs to Christ , now if you can shew vs but one text , that doth commaund vs to pray vnto Saintes , it shall suffice , I will neuer contend further . Ta. If we haue no text , of Scripture that doth command it , yet being ( as it is ) approued by the Romish Church , is asmuch as we care for . Pa. Your Romish church indeede doth avouch what she● list , without care , without cause , without shame , or without sence . Ta. That the Saintes are not onely medyators and intercessors for vs , & that they haue sometimes a hand in our redemptyon , doth playnely appeare by this prayer that the church of Rome readeth publyquely vppon Saint Thomas Beckets day that was sometynes Bishope of Canturbury , which followeth in these wordes , Dens , pro ouius Eclesia &c. O God , for whose Church the glorious Bishop Thomas , was put to death , by the swordes of the wicked , grant we beseech thee , that all that desire his helpe may atteyne the effect of their petition to saluation : By this it doth appeare , how that gloryous Bishop Thomas , did shed his bloud for the church of God : And that the mistery might the more playnely appeare , marke yet agayne this second prayer conteined in these wordes . Tu , per Tho : sanguinem &c. Thou O Chryst , cause vs to come thither where Thomas is euen for the bloud which he shed for thy sake . By this it apeareth that this holy Martyr is not only a medyatour but a redeemer , for here we make intercessiō vnto Christ that by the bloud which Thomas shed , wee may come where Thomas is , the wordes are playne . Pa. And that is to the infernal pit of Hell , O doctryne of diueles that doth teach the silly people to flie from the blod of Christ , to seeke there saluation in the bloude of a Traytor , a seditious wretch that was onely canonyzed by the Pope for his Trayterous demeanure and disobedience to his lawfull prynce : I tell you sir Tady you could not hauesought out a fitter fragment whereby to make manyfest the adultrous religion of your whorish church of Rome , then this that you haue brought of that traitor Thomas Becket . Ta. I thought asmuch before that you would take exceptions to him , because he with stood the prynce , for the Catholike cause but I hope you wil take no exceptyons to those inuocations that haue beene dedicated to our blessed Lady , whereof ther are no small store , one amongst the rest O Mariagloriosa &c. O Mary glorious , in dainties delitious , prepare thou glorye for vs. Againe , Mariamater Domini &c. O Mary the Mother of our Lord , the sonne of the eternall God , helpe vs all that flie for helpe vnto thee : Againe , Maria gratia &c. O Mary the mother of grace , the mother of mercy , defend thou vs from our ghostly enemies , & receiue vs at the houre of death . Yet againe , Veni Regina gentium &c. come Queene of the Gentiles , extinguish the fiery heate of our sinnes , blot out whatsoeuer is a misse , and cause vs to leade an innocent life . These and many other that might be named all of them prouing that the inuocation of Saints hath beene both approued and had in vse in the church of Rome , and I hope you haue heard of our Ladies Psalter , that was printed at Paris almost 100. yeares since , where the whole number of the 150 Psalmes are turned from Dominus to Domina , quite topsie turuie from our Lord to our Lady . Pa. I doe not so much wonder at that ( Syr Tady ) when now in the hottest Sunne shine of the Gospell , wee see almost euery day whole Lordships to be sould , and but to vphold Ladishippes : but to speake reuerently of that blessed Virgin , for the fruite of whose wombe , all generations doe call her blessed , her glorie doth not so much consist in the bearing of Christ , as in her stedfast faith , and beleeuing in Christ ▪ which caused her ioyfully to sing : My soule doth magnifie the Lord , and my spirit hath reioyced in God my Sauiour : And therefore what Papistes doe attribute for honour , is plaine blasphemie to that blessed Virgin , for Christ being our hope ( and not our Lady ) they ascribing to her what shee is not , doe thereby dishonour God , and doe her no worship at all . Howe wicked a thing is it then to thinke that the Saintes doe sometimes plague and punishe vs because wee doe them not that superstitious honour , which is their dishonour , and not onely our shame , but also our sinne . Ta. I see the repugnancy of our religion to bee such , as there is no hope of reconcilement ; for what wee acknowledge to bee holy , that you say is prophane , and those rites and ceremonies , which wee doe most indeuoure for deuotions sake , in the exercise whereof we do seeke our greatest pietie , those you condemne to bee superstitious , Idolatrous , and blasphemous , and that our whole religion is nothing else , but sacriledge , and a dishonouring of God , I will therefore reason no further in these matters , that I see will not be holpen , but tell mee now in the way of goodfellowship , did you euer see a priest say Masse ? Pa. I will neuer deny it Syr Tady , I confesse I haue seene a Masse . Ta. Then you haue not liued altogether so irreligiously , but that you haue once seene a Masse , but tell mee truely , howe did you like it ? Pa. O passing well , I neuer sawe a thing that better pleased me , but once : Ta. And what was that one thing , that you say pleased you better ? Pa. It was a Puppet play , that was playd at Dubline , but nowe this last summer . Ta. Then the sight of a Puppet play , was better pleasing to you then the sight of a Masse . Pa. When your priest hath put on his masking apparell , and hath gotten all his trinkets about him , if there were an Irish Bag-piper by , that had a deepe Drone , to play and entertayne the time whilst the priest were in his Memento , and had made an ende of all his dumbe showes : what with the musicke of the one , and the gestures of the other , it woulde passe all the Puppet playes in the world . Ta. Nowe I am of the like conceipt of your holy communion , that is but a prophanation of the blessed Sacrament , and no wayes concordable with Christes institution , where you neyther receiue the flesh of Christ , nor vse adoration . Pa. The flesh of Christ is both eaten in the spirit , and adored in the spirit , yea the very eating of it , is adoring of it , sith it is not eaten but by beleeuing for hee that beleeueth not eateth not the flesh of Christ. Ta. As though the flesh of Christ were not inclosed in the forme of bread , and corporally eaten with the mouth of man. Pa. But doth the infidell or vnbeleeuing man receiue Christ so really as you say , if he receiue your sacrament ? Ta. The denyall of it is the high way to all those heresies that are helde by the Protestants , and till they beleeue that , what doe they but blaspheme the doctrine of the Catholicke Church . Pa. And the misconstruction of Christes words is it that leadeth the papistes to their Idolatry . Ta. For our misconstruction take you no thought , for we are past all feare of that . Pa. And those that are past all feare are commonly past all recouery , and he is in most danger of death , that in an extreamitie of sicknesse feeleth it least . Ta. Our intent is to worship Christ , wee haue no meaning to worship the elements , of bread and wine ( as you vntruly report ) but the blessed body of Christ , that is conteyned in those accydents of bread and wine . Pa. But speake truly ( Syr Tady ) doe you adore the bodie of Christ in the misteries by a spirituall vnderstanding , or doe you adore the mysteries themselues ? Ta. Finding him really and corporally in the sacrament , there we worship him , where we find him . Pa. If your zeale bee such , to worship Christ in euery place where you find him , why doe you not worship the Priest when he hath beene at masse , or any other man , that is a member of the Church . Ta. Doe you thinke that Christ is no otherwise in the Sacrament , then he is in a mortall man. Pa. I tell thee , he is more truly , really , and naturally in those men that be his members , then he is in the elements that be vsed at his table . Ta. O blasphemy , blasphemy , O horrible and shamelesse heresie , is any mortall man , transubstantiated into Christ as the elimentes are by power of consecration . Pa. The wordes of Saint Paul. 2. Corin. 13. Know yee not your selues , that Christ is in you , except ye be reprobate persons . Away now with your transubstantiating the elimentes into Christ : the sacrament is no part of the mistycall body of Christ as we are , for we are knit vnto him , euen by the truth of his and our nature , flesh and substance , as members of the same body to their head : the sacrament is but onely annexed as a signe to the heauenly grace , and therefore your imagination of this real presence is odible heresie , and your worshipping the elimentes of bread and wine , abhominable Idolatry . Ta. But tell me Patricke , is this the doctrine of your Colledge ? Pa. No Syr Tady , it is the doctrine of Christ , that is reade and taught in the Colledge . It was pitie that Academe of heresie , was euer founded , for sith the erection of that paultry school house , the Catholicke religion is dispised , God is dishonored , and our blessed Lady , is out of all request , throughout the whole Realme of Ireland . Pa. O good Syr Tady be not deceiued , Ladies were neuer in better request then they be at this day in Dublyne . Ta. You are contemners of the Catholicke religion , & in your not adoring the blessed sacrament you dishonor God. Pa. I wonder from whence you doe fetch your adoration , we haue warrant in the scriptures , to take and eate , but not to kneele downe and worship . Ta. Did not Christ say this is my body ? Pa He did so , but is that all that you haue to say for your worshipping . Ta. Doth not your Colledge teach , that Christ is alwayes present with vs here on earth ? Pa. Our Sauiour himselfe hath spoke it : Loe I am alwayes present with you , till the end of the world . Ta. That 's well yet , that you are conformable to some thing . Pa. His diuinitie no doubt is alwayes present with vs , but in his humanitie , neyther really , locally , nor corporally , as the papist doth grosly imagine . Ta. Are you there againe with your Beares , I say if he be present with vs , it must needes be corporally , and locally comprised in the formes of bread and wine , in the blessed sacrament . Pa. You make your reall and corporall presence to be a shelter for your errours , but that being false , as long since hath bin proued , what are you then but most odible Idolators . Ta. I say that after the wordes of consecration are once spokē by the priest , the eliments of bread and wine are presently transubstantiated into the blessed body of Christ really and substantially , as he was borne of the virgin Mary , and what thinke you now , is not the sonne of God worthy to be worshipped ? Pa. No doubt of it ( Syr Tady ) but the sonne of God is worthie of all honor , but doe you thinke him to be there indeed , in these formes as you haue spoke of ? Ta. It hath beene so receiued amongst the Catholickes for an vndoubted article for these many hundred yeares . Pa. I do aske you Syr Tady in the more ceremonious maner , because I haue heard of a madde conceited knight , that was an Essex man called by the name of Syr Iohn Raynsforde : who in Queene Maries dayes , being in the company of Edmond Bonner , then Bishop of London , who suspecting the knight to be aduerse to their religion , would needs vrge him to make manifest to the world , what hee did beleeue of the blessed sacrament of the Altar : thereby to shew himselfe to be an obedient childe truly legitimate to the Catholicke Church . The Knight would giue no other answer , but that he beleeued as the Bishop himselfe beleeued , and prayed the Bishop to speak truly what he himselfe did thinke in the matter . To whom the Bishop answered , that he shamed not to make free confession of his faith , at all times , and in all places : And to satisfie your demande ( sayd the Bishop ) my beleife is that in the sacrifice of the Masse , after the priest hath spoken the wordes of consecration , there remayneth no more breade nor wine , but the blessed body of Iesus Christ , is there really conteined vnder the formes of bread and wine . Very well ( said the knight ) it is an easie matter for a man to be leeue all this : but what else what else , what doe you thinke more of that blessed sacrament ? why ( quoth ) the Bishop , what should I thinke more then I haue already sayd : I thinke that after the words of consecration being spoken by the priest , that there remaineth the blessed body of Iesus Christ , flesh bloud and bone , as he was borne of the virgin Mary . The Knight began in a ceremonious manner to protest how his beleife was , that after the priest had spoken the words of consecration : Hoc est Corpus meum , that vnder the formes of bread and wine , Christ was there remaining , in a suite of Russet Satine , a velvit Cap , and a feather on his heade : a Spanishe Coape on his backe , a payre of silke stockinges , and a gylt Rapyer & Dagger by his side . How thinke you now Syr Tady , by the knights opinion , I promise you for my parte , I beleeue the Bishop and him both alike . Ta. Haue I all this while listened for such a conclusion : but tel me Patricke what became of that knight , was he not burned for his heresie . Pa. It is more heresie for a man to beleeue that Christ is in the sacrament gentleman-like , then for our massing priestes of Ireland , to sute themselues in that generous manner euery day when they list ? Ta. Well Patricke I doe see you are so blinded with presumption and rebellion against the Catholicke Church , that you will beleeue nothing , but what is pleasing to your owne fantasie . Pa. Nay , what an absurditie is in you to thinke that Christ is eaten and deuoured by the wicked : Christ entereth the soule , but not the mouth of man : Eate you , this is my body , Drinke you , this is my bloud : these speeches cannot be religious , except they bee figuratiue , for this grosse conceipt of a carnall eating , was it that offended the Caperniates in the sixt of Iohn . Yet that great fauourer of Popery of England Syr Thomas Moore that Bellarmine so much extolles for his wit and learning , doth litterally presse those wordes of Christ against Iohn Fryth in this manner following : The very circumstance of the place in the Gospell in which our Sauiour speaketh of that sacrament , may well make open the difference of his speeches in this matter and of all the other : and that as he spake all those but in an Allegory , so spake hee this playnely , meaning that he spake of his very body and his very bloud , besides all Allegories : For when our Lord sayde he was a very Vine , and when he sayd he was a doore , there was none that hearde him , that any thing marueyled thereat : And why , for because they perceiued wel that he ment not that he was a materiall Vine or doore indeed , but when he sayde that his flesh was very meate , and his bloud very drinke , and that they shoulde not be saued , but if they did eate his flesh , and drinke his bloud , then were they all in such a wonder thereof , that they could not abide . And wherefore , but because they perceiued well by his words , and his manner of circumstances , that Christ spake of his very flesh and his very bloud . Nowe if maister Mores opinion be true , that the Capernaites , lighted on the same manner of eating that Christ proposed vnto them , then they deserued rather prayse then blame : but they mistooke the wordes of Christ , who went about to teach them the spirituall eating of his flesh , and drinking of his bloud , for so doth he himselfe expound his owne words afterwards to his Disciples , teaching them how they should be both faithful partakers of his flesh , and rightfull interpreters of his speeches : And as many fathers as haue written of that place , haue so vnderstood it , the which our Iesuites knowing well enough , and are driuen to confesse that those wordes were spiritually meant , they are therefore inforced to flie from that place which Moore so cōfidently auoweth for that carnall eating and drinking , and will in no wise admit those wordes in the 6. of Iohn to appertaine to any thing that was spoken by Christ at his last supper , but doe only stick as close to their Hoc est corpus meum , as the Cuckoe to her songe . Pope Innocent , vnderstanding that place of the sixt of Iohn , as that great clarke spoken of before Moore had done : caused yong children and infants to receiue the sacrament ; And of this carnall minde were many other Bishops a long time , yet afterwards looking more spiritually vppon the matter , they confessed their errour . Saint Augustine , giuing a certaine rule how wee should knowe the tropes , figures , allegories , and phrases of the scriptures , putteth this place of the 6. of Iohn , out of all doubt and question : his wordes be these : When soeuer the Scripture , or Christ seemeth to commaund any foule or wicked thing , then must that text be taken figuratiuely : that is as it is a phrase , allegory , and maner of speaking , and must be vnderstood spiritually , and not after the letter . Except ( sayth Christ ) you eate the flesh of the sonne of man , and drinke his blood , yee shall haue no life in you : hee seemeth ( sayth Saint Augustine ) to commaund a foule and wicked thing , it is therefore a figure , commaunding vs to be partakers of his passion , and sweetely and profitably , to print in our mind , that his flesh was crucified , and wounded for vs. Ta. But tell me Patricke , bee these Saint Augustins owne wordes that you haue thus repeated ? Pa. You shall finde them in his third booke De doctrina Christiana : Cap. 16. Ta. In despite of all you can alledge out of Augustine , Ambrose , Peter , Paul , or Christ himselfe , I will beleeue nothing , but what the holy Catholike church of Rome doth teach and ratifie . Pa. Hold you still there Syr Tady , for that is the iust rewarde of errour , to bee euery day more peruerse , more obstinate , and more malitious , toward the truth then other . Ta. Do you denie that the body of Christ is not really conteyned in the blessed sacrament ? Pa. Flatly . Ta. O dangerous impiety , O impious blasphemie , O most detestable and damnable heresie . Pa. O now I see your chiding vaine is come vpon you sir Tady . Ta. Is it possible for a Catholicke priest to be patient , when euery schoole boy , will be inueying & itterating of matter against the faith of the Catholike church ? Pa. For your better satisfaction Syr Tady , that the fleshe of Christ is spiritually eaten by faith and beleife : what better proofe then the Patriarkes and Prophets of the old law , who before the incarnation of Christ , did eate his fleshe , and drinke his bloode , but in beleeuing the promise that Christ should come , as wee doe now in beleeuing that he is come . Ta. But they that doe beleeue that the body and bloode of Christ is in the sacrament indeede , haue the plaine words of our Sauiour himselfe , for the ground and foundation of their faith . Pa. So haue they the very wordes of God : which say that a broken potshard is Ierusalem . Ta. The Iesuites ( you say ) in the 6. of Iohn , do acknowledge and confesse a spirituall vnderstanding , but in the deliuering of the sacrament , wee be sure hee spake of a corporall , and not of a spirituall eating of his body , for when our Lord sayd , Take eate this is my body , did hee not meane they should take it with their hands , and eate it with their mouthes , and therefore eyther the one place doth but serue to expounde the other , or else in both places is prescribed a reall and a corporall eating of the fleshe of Christ . Pa. In those wordes Take eate , spoke at the last supper , no doubt , hee ment the corporall eating of that creature which he then gaue them . And when he added , This is my body : he recalled to their mindes the doctryne he had formerly taught them of eatyng of the flesh & drinkinge of his bloud , in which because they were instructed by the Capernaits errour , & their maysters declaration of himselfe : That the wordes that he had spoke were spirit and life , they neither started nor wondered at the matter , because they knewe his speaches to be allegorycall : Ta. But with what confidence is it avowed by our sauiour when he sayde , Verily verily I say vnto you , Except yee eate the flesh of the sonne of man , and drinke his bloud , you haue no life in you : Pa. And with what vehemency in the very same place doth he affirme when he sayth , verily verily I say vnto you , hee that beleeueth in me hath euerlasting life : thus you see , he that beleueth onely eateth the flesh and drinketh the bloude of Christ , for if eating and drinking in this place , were referred to the mouth and teeth , Iudas , or any other infidell that were partakers at the Lordes Table , could not perish : or els it must follow , that to beleeue in Christ were better then Christ himselfe , which were a great absurdity , for any man to thinke : And Christ himselfe hath sayd , he that eateth my flesh and drinketh my bloud dwelleth in me & I in him : now we knowe that sometimes the wicked do eate the sacrament and yet they neither dwell in Christ , nor Christ in them . Ta. Well Patryck , I must not giue you ouer thus , I haue yet some other nuttes for you to crack before I leaue you . Pa. Le ts see what maner of nuttes they be , you shall see I will make a shift to cracke them , and if they be oughts worth , I may happ to keepe the kernels to my selfe , & leaue the shelles to you . Ta. To proue the reall presence in the sacrament , I will avouch those writers , that all the Protestants in Ireland , are not able to contradict . Pa. Out with them in Gods name , letvs heare what they be Ta. I will first begin with that great and learned Clarke Durandus , who did confidently affirme , that Christ is present in the sacrament to the mouth and teeth of the receiuer , but hee consenteth with Hugo That we must seeke no longer for a corporal presence then whilst wee are achamming of him in our mouth . So long as he doth remaine , In visu , & sapore , so long we haue him , but these two will in no wise permit , that hee should be swallowed in the stomacke : but this is enough , they both of them ac , knowledge a reall presence to the mouth and teeth : but nowe comes Bonauenture , & he affirmeth flatly , that he is no lesse present in the stomacke , then he is in the mouth : marry whether he goes downe to the belly or noe , he stands in doubt , because of the diuersitie of opinions that are holden : and yet he liketh not , That the body of Christ should go into the belly of a mouse , or be cast forth by the drought . And heere hee sheweth a Catholicke reason why : Because the eares of well disposed persons would abhorre that : and heretickes , and Infidels would iest at it , and laugh vs to scorne that would defend it : But Alexander de Hales , in despight of heretickes and infidels both , doth confidently affirme that : if a dogg or a hogg should eate the wholl consecrated Host , is no cause ( sayth he ) but the Lordes body should goe there withall into the belly of that dogg or hogg . But now amongst the rest blessed Thomas Aquinas that holy Saint , doth sharpely reproue those that thinke contrary : Some haue sayd ( sayth he ) that as soone as the sacrament is taken of a mouse , or a dog , straight way the body & blood of Christ doth cease to be there , but this is a derogation to the truth of this Sacrament . Pa. But tell mee truth Syr Tady haue you not wronged those Authors , that you haue heere named , haue you cited their words no other wise then they themselues haue set them downe ? Ta. Now God and our blessed Lady defend that I shoulde so iniurie them , it were a shame for mee to belie them , their owne workes are extant and to bee seene , and there are a huge swarme of others , a wholl sect of Thomistes that doe vphold all these positions , enough to make all the protestants that be in Ireland to blush , but that they are past shame . But amongst the rest , and for the better credit to the cause : Antonius , Arch-Bishop of Florence , and Petrus de ṗludo , ioyned both together affirming that the body of Christ , may not onely bee eaten of a mouse , but also it may be vomited vp by the mouth , and purged downe to the draught , these bee their owne wordes . Therefore the body and bloud of Christ remayne in the belly , or stomacke , or vomit , or in whatsoeuer course of nature : so long as the shews of bread and wine remaine , & if they be vomitted , or purged before they be altered ( as sometimes with those that are troubled with the flux ) euen there is the body of Christ . Pa. O peace Syr Tady no more for the shame of your selfe , & of all the papistes in the worlde , bee these the nuttes you haue to cracke ? O loathsome stuffe vnfitte to be spoken of : mine cares doe glow to heare these grosse and barbarous repetitions : is this the reall presence that you so much striue for ? are these the learned authorities , which you so highly extoll , call you these Saintes that doe teach such filthy and loathsome diuinitie ? no maruel though you account traytors for martyrs when your Pope hath such cunning to make Saints of blasphemers . Ta. I tell thee true , that some of these that I haue named are Saints Canonized by the Church of Rome , and for the diuinitie they haue taught and spread , if it were not sound , religious and holy , doe you thinke it could passe as it doth , ratified confirmed and approued by the mother Church , so many yeares vncorrected or vncontrould ? But I cannot blame ye though you blush , you may well bee ashamed to see our holy Masse , that so many heretickes doe seeke to impugne , howe it is established vpholden and fortified , by no meane nor simple authoritie I warrant yee . Pa. I see indeed that those that haue no regard of their cōsciēces before God , haue lesse care of their credites before men , but it is time to giue ouer reasoning with papistes , when they seeke out such nuttes as these be for protestants to cracke , and some other busines calling me away , I will therefore leaue you . Ta. Well Patricke then for a parting blowe , let me aduise thee yet a little for thine owne good , be not obstinate , but be ruld by me it shall be for thy benefit . Pa. What is it sir Tady , to forsake my religion , & to turn papist Ta. A papist as you cal it , but in truth a true christian , & a●●●cōciled childe to the Catholicke Church , thou shalt thereby shewe thy selfe to be a naturall Hibernian , where now thou remainest a steine to thy country : what an Irishman a protestant ? it is Rara auis in terris . I will tell thee Patricke , and I will tell thee truely , thou wert better to be reputed a traitor to the King , then to be accounted as thou art , thus open mouthed against the Pope , the one perhaps may find some fewe enemies to prosecute him , but the other shall find euery man readie to persecute him . Pa. Syr Tady when I meane to turne traytor to the King I will followe your counsayle , I will turne papist . Ta. And vntill thou dost show thy selfe to be a professed papist indeede , thou shalt find little friendshippe in Ireland . And so farewell . FINIS .