A true report of the priuate colloquy betweene M. Smith, aliâs Norrice, and M. VValker held in the presence of two vvorthy knights, and of a few other gentlemen, some Catholikes, some Protestants : with a briefe confutation of the false, and adulterated summe, which M. Walker, pastour of S. Iohn Euangelist in Watling-streete, hath diuulged of the same. S. N. (Sylvester Norris), 1572-1630. 1624 Approx. 93 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 33 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A08330 STC 18661 ESTC S461 22454861 ocm 22454861 25547 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A08330) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 25547) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1475-1640 ; 1754:18) A true report of the priuate colloquy betweene M. Smith, aliâs Norrice, and M. VValker held in the presence of two vvorthy knights, and of a few other gentlemen, some Catholikes, some Protestants : with a briefe confutation of the false, and adulterated summe, which M. Walker, pastour of S. Iohn Euangelist in Watling-streete, hath diuulged of the same. S. N. (Sylvester Norris), 1572-1630. Walker, George, 1581?-1651. 63, [1] p. English College Press], [St. Omer : M. DC. XXIIII [1624] "Permissu superiorum." Place of publication and publisher suggested by STC (2nd ed.). Signatures: A-H⁴. Marginal notes. Reproduction of original in the British Library. 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Great Britain -- Church history -- 17th century. 2004-11 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-12 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-01 Jonathan Blaney Sampled and proofread 2005-01 Jonathan Blaney Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A TRVE REPORT OF THE Priuate Colloquy betweene M. Smith , aliâs Norrice , and M. VValker . Held in the presence of two VVorthy Knights , and of a few other Gentlemen , some Catholikes , some Protestants . With a briefe Confutation of the false , and adulterated summe , which M. Walker , Pastour of S. Iohn Euangelist in Watling-streete , hath diuulged of the same . Permissu Superiorum . M. DC . XXIIII . TO THE READER . IT IS no Nouelty lately practised by the Protestāts of our age ; it hath alwaies beene the vsual trade , and inueterate guile of Heretikes in former tymes , to corrupt , falsifie , and depraue , not onlie the Bookes , and Writings , but the wordes , sayings , and other Conferences they haue held with the professours of the Catholike Church . Origen complayneth how his bookes were thus abused by the enemies of God , and Sowers of Cockle , euen in his owne dayes . S. Augustine writeth , that the Donatists being conuicted of falshood in a Collation he had with them , did after maliciously calumniate , and traduce the sentence giuen against them , as falslie pronounced . The Arians , Pelagians , and other auncient Sectaries were attainted of the like crime . And now our Puritans , and Protestants are proued guiltie of the same , or far more treacherous dealing , by which they labour to vnderproppe the rotten beames of their ruinous , vnconstant , & declining doctrine . 2. Of this fraud and deceite Hunnius , Hail-bronner , and their companions were guiltie , who being vāquished in the meeting at Ratisbone , diuulged notwithstanding many false reports of their triumph and victorie . Of this was M. Iewell guilty , as D. Harding in manie of his writings , & M. VValsingham in his Search , haue euidētly discouered . Guilty was M. Reynolds in publishing his Conference with M. Hart , wherein he forged diuers things to the credit of his owne , and disaduantage of his Opponents cause , of which he neuer so much as dreamed . Therefore S. Gregorie trulie auerreth of these , and such like heretikes , that , by their labours and disquisitions , they endeauour not so much to attayne the truth , as to seeme victorious : they more eagerlie thirst after the applause of men , then the glory of God : they seeke such things as apertayne to themselues , not such as belong to Iesus Christ. 3. In which kind , most notable now of late , and most fresh in memorie , is the pride and arrogancie of D. Featly , who impudentlie boasted of his supposed Conquest in a meeting which he , & D. VVhite had with M. Fisher , and M. Sweete : from which neuerthelesse he cowardlie fled ; wholie discomfited , and blotted with the ignomonie of a desperate Retraite . No lesse shamefull ( though in a conflict lesse famous ) is the vanitie of M. VValker , in bragging of the Conference betweene him and M. Smith , which himself hath set forth stuffed with such a heapeof false and guilefull relations , as he may seeme ( according to the Prophet ) to haue made lying to be protected . Nothing trembling at that dreadfull sentēce which is prophesied of him ; Thou ( O Lord ) hatest all that work iniquity . thou wilt destroy them all that tell a lye . Howbeit not one , but so manie lies hath he diuulged , as I may say with Ieremie , he hath bent his tongue , or prepared his quill , as a bowe of lying , and not of truth &c. His tongue is a wandering arrow ; it hath spoken guile . For in relating the arguments and answers which passed on both sides , some he changeth , some he corrupteth : heere he leaueth out , there he foisteth in : one while he disioynteth the wordes , otherwhile he dismembreth , & peruerteth the sense : in fine he maketh such a misshapen and confused Chaos of malicious slaunders , of foolish & impertinent additions , as may well become one of his owne deformed and bastardly brood ; which the iudicious Reader may playnlie perceaue by the true narration I shall heer deliuer , without inserting any more then shall be necessarie for the iust reproofe of the aduersaries forgeries , or redargution of other speaches purposelie omitted , and suppressed by him . 4. Yet meruaile not I haue so long delayed this obligation I had , to cleere my self , & satisfie the interest Iowe to truth . For the first Copie of my answere fullie perfected , and addressed to the presse ( though in a forrayne Countrie , because the tyme permitteth not any such commoditie at home ) was , as it often happeneth , intercepted by the way , and the interception concealed from my knowledge for the space of six whole weekes . So powerfull is the aduerse faction in bearing vs downe , and openlie disgracing vs with their calumnious libels ; and so vigilant and watchfull in stopping all possible meanes we should take , to manifest our innocencie . But such violent oppression cannot still continue ; the Widowes teares , the Orphans cryes will at length be heard ; and Christs afflicted flocke , our silenced pennes , may find a tyme to lay open our sinceritie , and the wrong which is done vs , by their false criminations . A TRVE REPORT OF THE Priuate Colloquy , betweene M. Smith , aliâs Norrice , & M. VValker . M. SMITH , aliâs NORRICE . So M. Walker stileth me . FIRST then it is false , that I chalenged any Minister to dispute : I onlie yelded for the satisfaction of Syr William Harington , to giue a meeting to any whom he should bringe . Secondly , it is false , that I was assisted by any more Priests then onlie one , by any more Catholikes then foure ; I for solemnelie conditioned at the beginning , that there should be no more then fiue or six persons at the most on a side : to the end the Conference might be verie secret , and priuate , without concourse of people , or noyse abroad , for feare of affoarding disgust vnto the State , in that our quiet tyme of peace and conniuencie . Which conditions I punctuallie obserued , though the Aduersarie was so bold as to violate and infring them , both by bringing more then the appointed number , as by publishing also the whole discourse , to the open view and sight of the Realme ; yet so fraudulentlie , so corruptlie , as forceth me to this right and vnfaygned replie . Then , although it be true , that I intreated the disputation might be performed sweetlie , and with all mildnes , without bitter wordes , or reproachfull taunts ; yet M. Walker made no such answere as he hath forged in his Pamphlet . True also it is , that I excepted against the vnmannerlie tearmes of calling our Church Whore of Babylon , the Pope Antichrist , & desired no such odious Epithetes might be vsed , now especially whē it pleased the Kings Maiesty to send to his Holines for a dispensation for the mariage of our Noble Prince ; Yet I sayd not , that his Maiestie sued to his Holines , or gaue the Pope that honour : The awe of reuerence I bore to so mightie a Monarch did temper my tongue from vsing any such wordes , as seemed to carry the least shew of distast . At length that we might proceed more solidelie , and not floate vp and downe vpon vncertaynties , I desired we might both agree in some generall positiōs , or irreuocable Tenents , as grounds of our ensuing dispute . Wherevpon being to proue , That the Protestants Church is not the true Church of Iesus Christ , nor , That it hath his true faith , I demanded of M. Walker , whether the true Church be alwayes visible , or no ? M. WALKER . The true Catholike Church is not visible , because it comprehendeth the whole companie of the elect of which the greatest part being Saynts in heauen , are without the ●each of mans eye , and cannot be seene . M. SMITH . My question is not of the Church Triumphant in heauen , but of the true Catholike Church Militant vpon earth . M. WALKER . But thus your wordes and question cohere not togeather : for it is as absurd to say , that the Catholike Church is militant on earth , as it is absurd to affirme , that all mankind , euen the vniuersall race of Adam , are now liuing . M. SMITH . Was S. Cyprian then absurd , who called the militant Church , vnited and conioyned in the vnion and linke of Priests , adhering togeather , The one Catholike Church ? To communicate with Cornelius , the head only of the militant , was to communicate with the Catholike Church ? Was S. Augustine absurd , who tearmeth the militant Church , whose communication we must hold , The Catholike Church ? The militāt Church , dispersed ouer the face of the earth , The Catholik Church ? The militant Church , in which alone one baptisme may be wholesomelie obtayned , The one incorrupt Catholike Church ? The militant Church , in which by imposition of handes , the holy Ghost is giuen ▪ The only Catholike Church ? The Church , in which good and euill be , as chaffe and corne , The Catholike Church ? The Church in which the sacrifice of bread and wine in faith and charity ceaseth not to be offered throughout the vniuersal world , The holie Catholike Church ? But to presse you no further with the testimonies of men ; was the Sonne of God absurd , when he sayd , Other sheep● I haue , that are not of this fold , thē also I must bring ; & they shall heare my voyce , & there shal be made one fold , & one Pastour ? Who were these other sheep , but either Predestinate , or many of them at least ? To what Fold were they brought ? Without doubt to Christs visible , to Christs militāt , to Christs Cath. Church : for to no other would he bring them , no other is his fold , no other his one , and that singular one , of which he is chiefe and supreme Pastour . Therfore not your inuisible , but the visible , and militant is the true Catholike Church of IESVS Christ Neyther are the Predestinate , as you pretend , before they be called , mēbers of his Church , because this is the oracle of Truth , They are not of my fold . So much by the way for this . Now that you may cease your wrangling , and stick no longer in ambiguity of tearmes ; I tell you once agayne , that I speake not of your Catholike , and Inuisible , but of that militant Church , which we are bound to obey , and heare , that , of whose Communion we ought to be ; that , of which Christ sayd , di● Ecclesiae , Tell the Church . What hold you of this ? I● this Church visible , or no ? M. WALKER . I distinguish . That Church may be two wayes considered ; either in regard of her outward men , outward duties of Christianitie , outward preaching of the Word , and administration of the sacraments , and so it is visible : Or in respect of the inward election , inward faith , and spirituall graces , and so it is inuisible . A Catholike Gentleman . Reserue your distinctions , vntill you neede them , and now answere directly to the Question . M. SMITH . Aske me any question , and try whether I will vse any such tergiuersation . What , is your Conscience so horride , or cause so bad , as you dare neuer giue a direct answere ? M. WALKER . I answere , as I belieue . M. SMITH . And doe you not belieue , what your owne men teach concerning this poynt ? Doe they not teach , that the Church which we ought to heare , is visible ? Or may we heare an inuisible ? Doth not D. Whitaker define it by these markes , to wit , by the true preaching o● the word ; and the true administration of the Sacraments ? And although he addeth that the whole Essence of the Church consisteth in them ; yet he sayth , that these markes signifie , and denote a visible Church . Now , doe not you belieue as he doth ? Or are you afrayd to confesse that Church to be visible which he confesseth ? Man consisteth of an inuisible essence , yet is a visible man : so the Church may haue some inuisible dowries , yet be a visible Church . M. WALKER . You wronge D. Whitaker : He neuer taught that the whole Essence of the Church consisted in the true peaching of the word , and administration of Sacraments . M. SMITH . I wrong him not : He teacheth , writeth , and diuulgeth it in print ; though you wrong both your self and vs , in making these digressions , and picking euery occasion to run from the matter . M. WALKER . Dare you stand to this , that M. Whitaker writeth it ? I haue b●th read him , and studied him , I am sure he hath no such matter . M. SMITH . His bookes are extant : you studied thē sleightly , or vnderstood them not . I am sure he hath it . M. WALKER . Because I will not spend tyme in contesting with you , let this be the issue before these Gentlemen : let vs send for D. Whitakers workes , and if I doe not shew that he doth proue against Bellarmine , that the Catholike Church i● inuisible , & that this is a mayne poin● large lie disputed by him , and a mayne controuersie betweene him and Bellarmine , let me branded with the marke of a wilfull liar . M. SMITH . Will you still fly to the ambush of your hidden Church ? Shall I neuer bring you into the open field ? Haue I not sufficiently inculcated vnto you , that my question is of the Church now militant on earth ; of that Church which we ought to heare , and obey ; of that which M. Whitaker describeth by the marks before mentioned ; of that which your selfe distinguished to be partly visible , partly inuisible ? And run you now back againe to your counterfait Catholike , and wholy inuisible Church ? Are you so sodainly distracted of your wi●s , as not only to forget what I had sayd , but what your selfe had written immediatly before ? Yet perhaps I may mistake : It proceeded not so much from the giddines of your braine , as from the guiltines of your cōscience ; which mistrusting the vaine & vnaduised chalenge you made , would now like a cunning Cheater , by foysting in these words guilefullie , diuert it to a quite cōtrary purpose . For I neuer denied that M. Whitaker forgeth an inuisible Catholique Church ; but I so often canuased you frō straying thither , as cōmon sense might haue taught you to keep on your way , & stād to your tackling in mantaining the quarrell , or saucie exception you tooke against me , for saying that M. Whitaker placed the whole essence of the Church in the true preaching of the Word , and true administration of the Sacraments . This was that which then I sayd . Against which you contested as before : your words , to deliuer the contestation truly as it was , I must in part repeate againe , leauing out that counterfait passage which you of meer fraud so treacherously insert . M. WALKER . Well I am content to make this the very issue of our meeting : And if M Whitaker affirme any such thing , let me be branded with the marke of a willfull liar , impostor , and false Prophet . But if I shew the cōtrary out of his owne writings , then shall you cōfesse your selfe a forger , a falsifier , an impostor , & a Priest of Baal . The gentlemen all confessed this was faire play , & desired it might be soc . Wherupon M. Smith ( as M. Walker writeth ▪ began to drawbacke & shewed himselfe vnwilling , & much affraid to hazard his credit so quickly , & would gladly haue left this poynt , & fallen into another . M. SMITH . How little I was affraid to hazard my credit in that matter , the standers by at that tyme can witnesse ; and the euidences I am now to bring out of M. Whitaker shall manifestly declare : for he supposing , that wheresoeuer the Word is trulie preached , there it is heard , there it is belieued , and conserued , and there it fructifieth in the hearts of some ; expresly auerreth of the markes afore mentioned . 1. We ascribe these properties to the Church , which comprise the true nature of the Church , whose presence make the Church , and their absence marre , or destroy the Church . But if they comprehend the true nature of the Church , without which it cannot stand ; they contayne not the accidentall , but the essentiall nature . If the essentiall Nature , the essence : yf the essence , the whole essence , because it is indiuisible ; they must comprehēd it whole , or not at all ; it cannot be comprehended in part , because it hath no parts . 2. He teacheth that the pure preaching of the Word , is the cause of the Church &c. Then , as the cause produceth her effect , so truth doth constitute the Church , and is cause therof ▪ Besides he often affirmeth that , though this cause be more hidden to vs , yet it is more knowne in nature , more knowne in it selfe then the Church : where he vndoubtedly speaketh not of the efficient , but of the formall cause . And who is so meane a student , as not to knowe , that the formall cause of a thing , is the chiefe , principall , and formall essence of that , whose cause it is . 3. D. Whitaker holdeth that to be the essence of the Church which he doth comprehend in the definition of the Church ( as you very impertinently vrge against me ; ) and yet the description he maketh by these markes I now handle , he plainly tearmeth a definition of the Church , in his answere to M. Campian saying : This definition engendred in the natiue , and inward principles of the thing it selfe , which wee define , thou shalt neuer be able to ouerthrow . Againe in another place speaking of the same markes he sayeth ; Those things which define , those denote , and signifie the Church &c. So what a Horse what a Lion , what an Eagle is , by their definition it is knowne : Therfore as the definition of an Horse , of a Lion , of an Eagle contayne their whole essence ; so the aforsayd marks which define the Church , contayne the whole essence and nature of the Church . By these three Arguments so stronge , as M. Walker is not able to answere them , so cleere , as he cannot delude them ; the truth of my assertion is irreproueably confirmed , & he by his owne challeng and engagement , is openly conuinced to be a wilfull liar , a forger , an impostor , a false prophet , and a Priest of Baal : for such he must be chronicled , for such entitled ; and whatsoeuer heerafter he shall say or write , with that note of infamie , must be all discarded . Euen such is that which heere he writeth immediatly after . M. WALKER . Gentlemen it is true , that D. Whitaker maintaines , that the Word trulie preached , and the Sacraments rightly administred are the certaine and infallible notes , and markes , by which euery true particular Church may be discerned to be Christs true Church ; and you know , that the markes of a thinge differ from the essence and substance of it ; as the signe hanging at the dore of a Tauerne , disters from the Tauerne it selfe : and the habit and cowle of a Monke , or Friar , which is the marke of his Order , differs from the Monke himselfe &c. M. SMITH . Where were your wits , where was your iudgment , where the reading of you Cantabrigian Professors , when you wrote this at randome of their doctrine ? For the signe of a Tauerne , the habit of a monke , are ou ward & extrinsecall signes ; those of M. Whitakers ●●c●et & internall : yours only knowne to the eye of sēse , his to the vnderstāding & eye of faith : yours separable his altogeather inseparable : yours may be changed or taken away without hurt or annoiance of the subiects they designe , his cannot be remoued without destruction of the Church : yours are not so much as accidentall qualities , originallie springing from the essence of the things , but voluntary signes instituted ( as the Logitians say ) to signifie , at the will only and pleasure of man ; M. Whitakers are most true , and ( as he calleth them ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , proprietates , essentiall properties , essentiall markes , grafted in the inward principles of the Church it selfe ; so little conuersant are you in the monuments of your Maister ▪ Besides , you do not only write thus opposit vnto him , but most childishly also contradict your self , tearming these notes of M. Whitaker , certaine and infallible , and yet comparing them with mutable and vncertaine signes , which only signifie at mans appoyntment . For an Iuye bush is not alwaies an infallible signe of a Tauerne , nor the habit of a Friar an infallible marke of him ; as the Tragicall murders , which no Friars , but bloudy Homicides haue committed in Friars weedes , and many other Comedies can tell you . But because you are so ignorant , as not to knowe your selfe , what to say , or what your owne men teach concerning this poynt ; let me examine you about another , touching the Infallibilitie of the Church . What hold you ? May the whole militant Church on earth erre , or noe ? M. WALKER . This is a captious and ambiguous question , & cannot directly in one word , negatiue or affirmatiue , be answered vnto . M. SMITH . No ? D. Reynolds answereth affirmatiuely , that it may erre ; This is one of his Theses publickly defended in the Vniuersitie of Oxford ; but you thinke all things captious , because you are set to cauill , and willing to decline the disputation we haue in hand ▪ M. WALKER . Nay I s●y it is captious and ambiguous , because in some respect it may e●re , in others it cannot . If we consider it according to her Militancie , Weaknes , and Imperfections of men who are lyars ; so wee tr●●e say it may erre . If we consider it according to the direction of Gods holy Spirit , the assistance of Christ , his Prophets and Apostles as it is guyded by their doctrine , cleaueth close to the Scripture , and swarueth not from them ; soe long we teach that it is infallible , and cannot erre . M. SMITH . But thus euerie Hereticall Assemblie is also infallible . Thus the Iewes , Turkes , Infidels , & Diuells themselues are infallible ; for as long as any of these closely adhere to the word of God , are guided by his doctrine ▪ and follow his direction ; so long they cannot erre . And what ? hath your Church no more priuiledge , or freedome from errour , then Iewes , then Turkes , then Diuels ? M. WALKER . Yes , because Iewes , and Turkes adhere not to the word of God , they follow not the truth , we doe . M. SMITH . Doe you , because you say you doe ? Will not they say the same , & haue as good warrant as you ? But how shall we know you follow the truth ? what proofs alleage you ? To chaleng it thus without proofes , seeing it is the matter controuerted between vs , is Petere principium ; that is , miserably to begge the argument we handle , or to giue that for a reason which is only in question : both most ridiculous , and hissed out of all schooles . Therfore M. Walker was so wary , as to conceale in his Sūme this inference of mine , and the foolish reply , or desperate Non-plus of his . Moreouer , to say your Church cannot erre , as it cleaueth close to Gods Word , speaketh and teacheth according to it , or as long as it swarueth not from thence , is nothing els thē to auouch ( though in other wordes ) that it cannot erre ▪ as it cleaueth to truth , speaketh and teacheth according to truth ; or that it cannot erre , as long as it erreth not : which is as idle as the former was foolish ; because to adhere to Gods word , is to adhere to the truth ; to swarue from thence , is to runne into errour . So that this answere is nothing to the purpose , no way able to satisfie my demand : for by asking of you , Whether your Church may erre or no , I demaund , whether it be so assisted by God , and guided by his holy spirit , as it must needs cleaue to his word , it cannot depart from it in deliuering any point of faith ? What answere you to this , is your Church thus inerrable , or no ? M. WALKER . I haue told you alreadie , how it may erre , and how it may not . M. SMITH . And I haue refuted what you sayed . If you haue nothing els to answere to my Interrogatories ; answere me a little to a Syllogisme , or two I shall propose ; by which I meane to proue , euen by this which you haue graunted , that the Protestants Church of England , is not the true Church of IESVS Christ. And thus I frame my argument . That Church which hath not the word of God trulie preached , and infallibly deliuered , is not the true Church of IESVS Christ. But the Protestant Church of England , hath not the word of God trulie preached , and infallibly deliuered . Therfore , it is not the true Church of IESVS Christ. M. WALKER . I denie the Minor. M. SMITH . I proue the Minor. The word of God preached in the Church of England is corrupted with errours , and the men that deliuer it , are subiect to errours . Therfore the Church of England hath not the word of God truly preached , and infallibly deliuered . M. WALKER . I deny the Antecedent . M. SMITH . The Antecedent hath two parts , the first of them I declare by induction . Malachy 2. v. 7. where all true copies haue ; The lippes of the Priest shall keepe knowledge , and the law they shal● require of his mouth ; you corruptly reade ; The lippes of the Priest should keepe knowledge , and they should require the law of his mouth , contrary to the Hebrew text , which insteed of shall keepe , hath Iism●ru , insteed of shall seeke , Iebakkesu ; contrary to the Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , contrary the Latine which is custodient , and requirent , all being of the Future tense , and Indicatiue moode ; which you haue changed into the Preterimperfectense of the Optatiue , or Subiunctiue moode ; altering therin both moode and tense of set purpose , to gainsay the infallibility of Christs visible pastours , who lawfully succeed in the Apostles roome ; and to patronage an errour , or rather Heresy of your owne , That the Priests & Prelats of Gods Church may erre in doctrine ; and so the people not bound to require the law at their mouthes . M. WALKER . We haue not corrupted the Hebrew text , for the true meaning of the Holy Ghost is perfectly deliuered by our Translation . M. SMITH . But answere me directly . Are not the Hebrew , Greeke , and Latin wordes all in the future Tense ? Do they not all import , shall keepe , and shall require ? And haue not you altered both the tense , and moode ? Is it not so ? what say you ? M. WALKER . Though the wordes be in the future tense , yet wee haue kept the true sense , because the future tense in Hebrew by reason of vau conuersiuum , may sometime stand for the preterimperfect tense of the Optatiue , Potentiall , o● Subiunctiue moode , as our translation hath ; therfore it is no● different , nor irregular from the Hebrew , which is the Originall . M. SMITH . But this is a meere collusion , for heere is no Vau conuersiuum in that place , nor can there be , as all that are cunninge in the Hebrew can tell ; so that this shift will not serue your turne ; nor that other of keeping the sense . For I accuse you of corrupting the text : But to alter the tense , to alter the moode , to alter the word of the Holy Ghost , is to corrupt the text , to change the diuine characters written by the finger of God : Therfore your Translation is guilty of this change , and corruption . Otherwise if adulterers of Scripture , may iudge of the sense , where shall you find any adulteration ? what Heretike can be conuinced of corruptiō ? For aske the Arians , aske the Valentinians , aske Marcion , who for paring , or gnawing away many places of Gods word , was called Mus-Ponticus , the mouse of Pontus , aske any of these Corrupters ; they will all answere , they keep the sense , & bring as sound arguments , as you do , for the maintenance therof : for such is your proofe . M. WALKER . It was ●euer the purpose of Gods spirit in that place , or by these wordes to teach , that the law should awayes be taught truly , and infallibly by the Priests , and Pastours , who succe●d Moyses , or the Apostles locally , in the church by a continued succession . M. SMITH . Heere againe you fall to Petere principium ; for we proue , it was his purpose , because his wordes enforce it . And haue you no other meanes to disproue it then by denying it was his purpose , because he did neuer purpose it ? And why did he neuer purpose it ? Because is not agreable to the purpose of your Hereticall phrensie : Though it be consonāt & agreable to Gods sacred doctrine , vttered , & vnfolded in diuers other places , as when he sayeth , that his spirit , his wordes shal not depart out of the mouth of his Prophets , and their seede , and seeds seede for euer . That , he who heareth the Pastours of the Church , heareth him : That , if any controuersy arise amongst inferiours , they shall come to the Priests of the Leuiticall stocke , and do whatsoeuer they shall teach according to the law . It is consonant to these texts , and sundry the like ; to which your translation being dissonant , it must needes be , not only a corruption of the text , but a deprauation also of the sense of the Holy Ghost . M. WALKER . That cannot be the sense , because the Priests , vnto whome the Prophet speaketh there in the 2. of Malachy , were Leuites , and succeded Aaron in the Priesthood , and yet they were departed out of the way ; they caused many to fall in the law by their corrupt glosse ; and their abuse of the couenant of Leui &c. Yea some of them had sacrificed to Idols , as Iosephus sheweth in his history . M. SMITH . As though it were necessary for al Priests that haue lawfull calling to be free from errour ? or such as are fensed from erring in fayth , should neuer be able to stumble in their liues ? It is inough for the infalibility of Christs Spouse , that the high Priest , and his Consistory , that the head of the Church , & her generall Councels be inerrable . It is inough that God doth preserue his truth in the mouthes of vicious , and wicked men ; as in the mouthes of Scribes , and Pharisies , when they sate on Moyses his Chaire ; as the guift of prophesie in Ciaphas , of whom S. Iohn recordeth , that he prophesied , because he was high Priest of that yeare . Seest thou ( sayth S. Chrysostome ) how great the power of Po●t●sic ●ll authority is ? Gr●ce 〈◊〉 touched the mouth ▪ but not the ●ewd , and villanous ●art . And S. 〈◊〉 of naughty pastours auoucheth ; Will they , nill they &c. they shall speake the wordes of God ; by reason of the promise , which heere , and els where he hath made them . M. WALKER . God did not make he●re a promise , but gaue a commandement ▪ teaching what the Priests and people should do , and ought to do ; like that , Thou shalt haue no other Gods but me . M. SMITH . In respect of the people , I grant it is a Commandement of God , that they ought to learne , and require the law from the mouthes of the Priests . And I wonder how you presume to infring this cōmaundement , by sending them from their publick voices , to your secret spirits , or hidden perswasions . Then by your owne cōfession ( because it is the cōmaundement , and Precept of God , which the people , as you write , ought to obey ) it must needes follow , that his Priests haue his infallible promise and assurance of truth ; otherwise the people could not with security repayre vnto them , otherwise they might erre , and be deluded by them in matters of fayth , they might be frustrated of their hope , & forfeite their saluation , euen by following the expresse will , and commaundement of God , which without open blasphe●y cannot be auerred . The same is manifestly declared by the reason the Holy Ghost assigneth , why the lippes of the Priest shall keepe knowledge , because he is the Angell of the Lord of Hostes H● is called ( saith S. Cyrill ) the Angell of the Lord of Hostes , because he deliuereth vnto mē the Oracles of●iod , ●dding nothing , withdrawing nothing , but e●en the same ●e rec●iued of God. S. Chrysostome : The Priest is the Angell of our Lord , he speaketh nothing of him selfe : if thou despise , th●u despisest not him , but God. Moreouer , if this were only a commaundemēt giuen to Priests by way of direction what they should do ; why did not your Translation expresse it according to the Hebrew in the future tēse , as they did other Commaundements ; Thou shalt haue no other Gods but me : Thou shalt not ste●le : Thou shalt not commit adultery & c ? Surely their conscience gaue them , that something more was heere cōprized , or els they would neuer haue altered the moode , and tense ; they would neuer haue bin more affrayde of translating this commaundement truly , agreable to the Originall , then they were of others . This chāge ▪ this alteration , pleadeth them guilty ; for let the sense be what it will ; ( though I haue euidently demonstrated it to be as we teach ; ) Either the Holy Ghost knew better then Protestants , what tense he should vse , to expresse that sense , or they better then he . Did they know better ? O how detestable is their blasphemy , in ascribing more knowledge to men thē to God! Did he know better ? O how diucl●●sh was their arrogancy , in presuming to alter the Tense oracled by the Holy Ghost , which he knew to be best , knew to be most fit , for the explication of his meaning ! This is such a horned argument , or vnauoidable dilemma , as neither M. Walker , nor any other Minister is able to answere . Another corruption though more cunningly conueyed , is discouered in the 4. of Daniel v. 24. or 27. where the English Bible hath , Breake off thy sinnes by righteousnes &c. insteed of Redeeme thou thy sinnes with Almes ; For in the Latine it is Redime , in Greeke 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in Hebrew , in rather in the Chaldeak it is Peruc , of Perac the roote , which also signifieth to Redeeme . M. WALKER . That translation is senseles , and against all reason : for God neuer appoynted that mens sinn●s should be redeemed . M. SMITH . Your proofe indeed is without sense , or reason : it is that idle Petitio principij , of which you haue bin often accused , yet for meere want of wit can neuer auoid . Haue you no better stuffe to alleadge then this ? M. WALKER . Yes , if you vnderstand , that Nabuchod●nozor ● wicked Heathen King should by his owne righteousnes redeeme himselfe from his sinnes , you make Daniel a teacher of Heresie , and blasphemie . M. SMITH . You are spitefully bent stil to wrangle , or els you must needes know I vnderstand it not of his owne righteousnes . For Daniell exhorteth him to frequent almesdeedes , which first by way of congruity might procure Gods fauour , and after deseruedly redeeme , or satisfie for the punishment of his sinnes . Which is a heauenly point of fayth , inculcated againe by the Holy Ghost in the Prouerbs , By mercy , and truth iniquity is redeemed , or purged , as your owne Bible readeth : though that which followeth in your Pamphlet be a most horrible , and monstrous slaunder , that Papists goe on in knowne sinne , in hope of absolution by confession , and pennance ; when we constantly teach , that neither of them can auaile , without detestation of sinne , and full purpose of amendement . To this slaunder is ioyned another of his notable leasinges , reporting me to haue sayd , that Peruc signifies only to redeeme ; wheras I confessed at the beginning , that it signified to destroy , redeeme , breake in peeces , breake asunder , but neuer to cease to doe , or breake off a worke , as their translation runneth . Syr Edward Harwood . Well , if the word doth import , to breake in peeces , and we haue , to breake off , then me thinkes the differēce seemes but small . This was that he spake : but he sayd not , as M. Walker outfacingly belyeth him , that M. Smith had fayled much in his pr●ofe : he was of a more mild , and generous disposition , thē euer to let fall any such speach . M. SMITH . The lesse the difference may seeme , the more pernicious if it iarre , as this doth , frō the harmony of Fayth : for the word in his natiue sēse betokneth such a breaking , as hateth , destroyeth , & quite extinguisheth the thing it crusheth , or breaketh a sunder : So it signifieth in those very places which M Walker alleadgeth , Breake off the golden ear●ngs &c. to wit , with abolishing , with destroying them to that , & changing them to another vse . And much more in Genesis , where it is not , as he most fraudulently corrupteth it , Thou shalt breake off his yoke &c. but as the Protestant Translatiō readeth , Thou shalt breake his yoke from off thy neck . So that Peru● , breake , is referred to the Yoke , as before to the Earings ; ( off ) is added by phrase of speach ▪ Likewise the very tearme of yoke declareth how he was to breake it off as a combersome , and hatefull burden , with dislike and detestation , to be eased of the same . No such manner of speach is vsuall in the place we handle , and the case it selfe is far otherwise . For a ma may breake off , or interrupt a busines for a tyme , which he liketh , approoueth , and meaneth after , when opportunity serueth , to prosecute , and accomplish . Therfore though your English Coppy beareth the sound of a small corruption , yet the treachery is great , and deprauation most viperous ; because it taketh away all reference to the demolition , redemption , and expiation of sinnes , by satisfactory workes of Pennance , and Almes-deedes ; which the true meaning of the word enforceth , and the Holy Ghost therby intended . To conclude , if the Hebrew word had bin doubtfull , as it is not ; then the Originalls of Greeke , and Latine , might haue directed you , without seeking a new sense , and faygned signification of your owne . Syr Edward Harwood , and M. Walker . Not so , for we haue nothing to doe with the Greeke , and Latin text , they are both corrupted . M. SMITH . And is not the Hebrew also corrupted , especially of late , since the addition of the pricks ? This was the true occasion of excepting against the Hebrew text ; no other was the exception , no other my base estimation or reiection of it : Though M. Walker hath so bad a conscience , as to misreport them all , and so virulent a pen , as vpon his owne lying report , to accuse me , of vanity , inconstancy , malice , and wickednes , ioyned with wi●full ignorance . But these are mild , and modest wordes in respect of other most opprobrious speaches , and spitefull tearmes , which elswhere flow from the bitternes of his hart : to which I now answere once for all The disciple is not aboue his Maister , nor the Seruant aboue his Lord : If they haue called the Good man of the howse Beelzebub , how much more them of his houshold ? It is no dishonor for me to be reuiled with the seruants of his house , if it be no ignominie for M. Walker to be one of their Reuilers . Howbeit , as soone as he had disgorged those vnciuil tearmes , he peremptorily writeth . M. WALKER . It is the iudgment of all the best learned , both Iewish Rabbins and Christians , that the pricks , vowells , & accents were from the beginning . M. SMITH . What ? Of all the best learned ? Little is your reading , or great is your forgetfulnes : for the best learned without exception say the contrary ; as not only Helias Leuita , but Rabbi Dauid Kimki , whome Caluin , and Beza much commend ; and diuers other Rabbins are of the same opinion , cited by Galatinus , who euidētly proueth this point out of their owne writings : with whome Genebrard , Lindan , Sixtus Senensis , Arias Montanus , and innumerable others accord : The wordes of Arias Montanus be these : The Grammarians striue about the antiquity , and first inuenters of these vowels , and pricks and the strife as yet remayneth in debate : Some referring this thing to the tyme , and industry of Esdras ; others to the Schoole at Tiberiades famous ●o● the resort and meeting of learned men : Howsoeuer thi●●e , that is constant and certayne amongst all , the inuention o● the vowells , pricks , not to be of equall standing , and antiquity with the Hebrew Consonants . Lo then this is constant , and certayne amongst all . M. WALKER . But looke Deuteronomy c. 17. v. 18. and there it is plainly testifi●d , that there was a booke of the law called Mishne , which signified double , because it was the law written in the double forme , both with letters , and pricks . Another Priest , M. Smiths Companion , You shew your selfe very ignorant , for Mishne doth not signifie in that place the Originall Scriptures , nor holy Scriptures at all : but the deposition or repetition of the Original , and prime law conteyned in Exodus , Leuiticus , and N●meri , which are only part of the Scripture called Deuteronomium , as S. Athanasius , S. Augustine , and Theodoretus witnes . Now to say , that the whole Scripture is called by the name of Mishne , is as absurd , as to mantayne that the whole Scripture is called Deuteronomy . And out of that bare word Mishne to inferre , the Scriptures to haue beene primarily writtē with pricks , is most ridiculous , because euen in the place you cite , it is as much distinguished from the first and primary Scripture , as a coppy from the original , a patterne from the Prototypon , and is expounded ioyned with Thorah , a doubled , or second Law. M. WALKER . You contradict you● selfe , in affirming that Mishne signifieth the doubled law , which is the Scripture , and yet not the originall Scripture . M. Smiths Companion . No good Sir , It is no more a contradiction to deny Mishne Thorah , or Deuteronomy to import the Scripture indeterminately , and yet to graunt it to be a part of the Scripture ; then to deny you to be a true Minister of Christ , and yet to graunt you to be a Minister : for Mickra indeed is the common word , by which the Iewes expresse the Scripture . M. WALKER . I answere , that the Scripture hath diuers names , it is called Thorah , Chethab , Mickra , and Mishne . M. Smiths Companion . Are not you ashamed , after the labour of so many months study to write so impertinently ; for Thorah signifieth only part of the Scripture , or Pentateuch , Chethab any writing ; as Esther . 8. v. 8. the kings letter is called Chethab : & as for Mishne , you alledge no text , or testimony to prooue that it betokeneth the Scripture . But see Pagnine , and you shal find that the word neuer expresseth any Scripture at all , but with the word Thorah , as Mishne Thorah , it betokeneth a repetition , or second law , as Deutero . 17. 18. Iosue 8. 20. But where Thorah is left out , it signifieth only the second . Looke Esther 10. 3. 4. Reg. 22. v. 14. ibid. c. 23. v. 4. and so M. Walker bewrayeth his little skill in Rabbins , who though he flourisheth in his writing with the muster of some of theyr names , and Commentaries ; yet he could not remember at the meeting , to cite any one of their authorities . M. SMITH . Thus you see M. Walker , how you wil be alwayes flinching from the matter , though you be still beaten backe to your owne shame and confusion . To returne therfore from whence we are digressed . If the Greek , and Latin be adulterated in the former place of Daniel , the Hebrew is alike corrupted ; because Peruc properly signifieth to redeeme , as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Greeke , Redime doth in Latin ( hence Peric signifieth a Redeemer , Purkan Redemption ) and so Theodotio , so Vatablus , so S. Ierome , and so all others expresse the word : wherfore either all texts are falsified , or all are true . If all be false , the Hebrew is tainted with corruption , as wel as the Greeke and Latin ; if all true , your translation is inexcusable , in discording frō the truth of all originalls , from the version of all the Auncients . Syr Edward Harwood , with others . These Disputations about the Hebrew text , are aboue our capacity , an● filter for the Schooles . I pray you descend to some more profitable matter , and easier for our vnderstanding . M. SMITH . Vpon this motion only , I ceased to rip vp the residue of Protestant corruptions , but not because neyther I , nor my Companion had any more to say , as M. Walker according to his fashion peruersly relateth , for infinite other deprauations of theirs are obuious , and apparent ; as the fraudulency they vse in translating one , and the same Greeke word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Traditio : For in such textes as mention good and holsome Traditions , they in lieu of Traditions , read Ordinances : where the Scripture speaketh of such as be naughty , or friuolous , they in hatred of our Apostolicall Traditions , carefully set downe the right word Traditions . The same deceit they practise in expressing the Hebrew word Sheol , Hell ; For where it may import a third place besides Heauen , & Hell , they warily turne it into Graue , Gen. 37. v. 35. Osee 13. v. 14. but where it cannot be meant of any other then of the dungeon of the damned , there they rightly translate it ; as in the 15. of the Prouerbes v. 24. Hel beneath . I might haue vrged how they iuggle with the word worthy , or make worthy , against the merit of workes ; how they change Iustifications into Statutes , Iustice into Righteousnes , against inherent Iustice ; how they sometyme forsake the Hebrew and retire to the Greeke , as in the 9 of Prouerbes v. 2. Wisdome hath mingled her wine : because the Hebrew word Masecha wholy fauoureth the ancient mingling of water and wine in the Chalice , which the Fathers vrge as necessary , and Protestants vtterly neglect , they fly to the ambiguity of the Greeke word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , which may signify to powre out , as well as to mingle : & so did they alwayes read before his Maiesties Correction . Otherwhiles they leaue the Greeke , and haue recourse to the Latin , as Act. 13. though the Greeke be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , they sacrificing to our Lord , as Erasmus translateth it , yet your translation still runneth according to the Latine they ministring vnto our Lord , because you cannot abide that word , although written by God , which doth any way relish of the Sacrifice of the Masse . These and a thousand such of your guilefull sleights I might haue alleadged ; howbeit to condescend to the reasonable motion of Syr Edward Harwood and the rest , I willingly omitted them , and returned to prooue the second part of my first Antecedent which you denied . The Antecedent was this . The Word of God preached in the Church of England is corrupted with errours , and the men that deliuer , it are subiect to errours . The former part is already prooued by the manifest adulterations of your Bible before mentioned . The second Part. That your men also are subiect to errour , I conuince by the confessiō of M. Reynoldes , M. Whitaker , and the most learned Protestantes of our tyme ; who expresly write , that the true Church , which they suppose theirs to be , may erre , and all her Pastours in some points of fayth , euen necessary to saluation . Therfore your men , your Preachers , and Pastours are subiect to errour . M. WALKER . I graunt , that the true Church may erre for a tyme insome one fundamentall point necessary to saluation ; & this I affirme of the Protestant Church , of our Church of England : Ground what you can vpon this . M. SMITH . Though some of the Catholikes heerevpon cryed out , We haue inough , inough , let vs leaue of our dispute , yet to giue more full satisfaction to the Protestāt Gentlemen , who perceaued not so soone the absurdity of this Paradoxe , or folly of M. VValker , in granting that very part of my Antecedent which before he denyed , I proceeded a little further , and argued thus against him . If your Church may erre in one point necessary to saluation , it may as well erre in another , and so cā propose nothing vndoubtedly to be belieued , as an article of fayth . Which inference though M. VValker denyed , and with many cauillations laboured to diuert , yet it euidently followeth , as I thus declare . That Church which hath not sufficient authority to persuade all the mysteries of fayth she proposeth , to be infallibly true , can propose nothing vndoubtedly to be belieued as an article of fayth . But your Church which may erre now in one point , now in another , at least for a tyme , hath not sufficient authority to persuade all the mysteries of fayth she proposeth to be infallibly true . Therefore , your Church can propose nothing vndoubtedly to be belieued , as an article of fayth . For seeing the Articles in which your Church may erre , are not specified by God , nor knowne to your followers ; they may iustly feare , and suspect least those she now proposeth , be some of them , in which she may erre : But with feare and suspition no fayth can stand , nothing can she propose which ought vndoubtedly to be belieued , as S. Augustine in the like case most excellently discourseth , saying : How can he be belieued who thinketh he may sometyme tell a lye ; for perchance he then lyeth , when he c●mmaūdeth vs to beleeue him . So you that hold , your Church may sometyme erre , haue cause to doubt , least then perchance she erreth , when she commaundeth you to follow her doctrine . If cause to doubt , no cause to obey , no cause to credit her . Nay it implyeth cōtradictiō we should with diuine fayth giue credit vnto her : For by fayth we are assured , that the thing she teacheth cannot possibly be otherwise , then we belieue : By doubtfulnes , or suspicion we mistrust they may be otherwise : Els why do we doubt ? Why do we suspect ? Therfore it is a manifest implicancy , and irreconciliable cōtradiction , that fayth and doubtfulnes should cōsist togeather ; that we should be vndoubtedly persuaded of the truth proposed , yet stagger and misdoubt of the truth therof ; as you haue iust cause to do , as long as you maintayne , that your Church may deceaue you . Besides , to prooue out of the former Paradoxe , that your Church is not the true Church , I framed these Syllogismes . That Church which may erre for a tyme , in a fūdamentall point , necessary to saluation , hath no certainty for that tyme. Yours is such . Ergo , it is no true Church . Againe . That Church which may erre for a tyme , in a fūdamentall point , necessary to saluation , hath not sufficient meanes of saluation , for that tyme. Yours is such . Ergo , it is no true Church . M. WALKER . These arguments are sophisticall , and faulty , because they haue foure termes . With the same Censure he discarded other Syllogismes as crazy & imperfect , he denied to answere any Enthymeme : and such was his feare of hazarding both cause and credit , as he reiected also a true , and perfect Syllogisme in moode , in figure , as the Roman Catholike , whome he mentioned , maintayned against him . Though he did not renounce his saluatiō if it were not true , which M. Walker after his wonted fashion most iniuriously reporteth of him . M. SMITH . Your cause lyeth a bleeding , whē you thus begin to wrangle about Syllogismes ; yet these two which I haue heere repeated , with the third which immediatly followeth in your Summe , are such as no Scholler would reprehend . For the conclusion which seems to make the Syllogisme , & consists of foure termes , supposeth another Syllogisme vertually inuolued , which to auoid tediousnes I did not expresse : After which manner all Enthymenes are iustified , and allowed , notwithstanding one of the premisses be suppressed , and the conclusion be immediatly inferred . A thing very vsuall amōg the learned in all Vniuersities , especially when the Disputant is either straitned with shortnes of tyme , or the Auditory ouer-wearied , as now it was , with the combersome delay of 4. long houres , by reason of your manifold digressiōs , idle repetitiōs , impertinent discourses , ouer-tedious writings &c. But you who neuer appeared in any such schooles , neuer peeped out of Aristotles Parua's , no meruaile though you could not apprehend that kind of arguing . I pardon your ignorance , I beare with your dulnes , & passe to those Syllogismes in moode and figure , which you could not gainsay . That Church which hath not the whole , entire , and infallible fayth , hath not meanes sufficient to saluation . But that Church which may erre for a tyme , in a fundamētall point , hath not the whole , entire , and infallible fayth . Therfore , it hath not meanes sufficient to saluation . M. WALKER . I deny your Minor , and do put you to prooue , that the Church which may erre , hath not the whole and infallible fayth . M. SMITH . If it do erre , it hath not whole & entire fayth ; if it may erre it hath not infallible fayth : as thus I prooue . That Church which is subiect to errour , in a fūdamentall point , hath not the whole and infallible fayth . But that Church , which may erre in such a point , is subiect to errour . Therfore , it hath not whole , and infallible fayth . M. WALKER . I must tell you ▪ that your Minor proposition is false . For a Church may be so farre subiect to errour , that it may haue a possibility to erre , yet not be void of the whole and infallible fayth . It is one thing to be subiect to errour , and another to erre actually : We hold , that our Church may erre , but doe not thinke that it doth erre in any fundamentall point . M. SMITH . If it may erre , if it hath a possibility to erre , it is as bad as if it did erre , in respect of the certainty which fayth requireth : for thus I argue . That Church which is fallible in a fundamental point of fayth , is not also infallible in the whole and entire fayth . But your Church which is subiect to errour , which hath a possibility to erre , in a fundamentall point of fayth , is fallible . Therfore , it is not also infallible in the whole & entire fayth : Vnlesse it may be in one and the same thing both fallible , and infallible , subiect to errour , and not subiect , which is impossible . M●●revpon I concluded , that sith the Protestāt Church is fallible in fayth , it hath not any true , & supernaturall fayth : if it hath no true fayth , it cānot be a true Church , which were the two things I was engaged to prooue : and so I haue fully discharged my taske , to the satisfaction I hope of all that be present . For M. Walker being caught in this net of contradiction , had no meanes to escape , vnles , as S. Augustine writeth of Maximin●s the Arrian Bishop , By talking much , and nothing to the purpose , he might seeme at lest to answere , who was not able to hold his peace . Therfore some of his companions intreated he might argue a while , to see whether he could haue better fortune in impugning our Church , thē he had in defending theirs . But before I relate the disputation he begā , I think it expedient for the instruction of such as are better conuersant in Diuinity , to vnfold certayne Theologicall Principles , or Articles of fayth , whereby the force of my former argument , the truth of our doctrine , the folly of protestancy , and the enormity of M. Walkers answere , may more apparently be discouered . The first Principle is , that Fidei non potest subess● falsum , fayth cannot be subiect to any falsity : Faith is infallible , sith it hath for its former obiect the prime Verity , or authority of God ; it relieth vpon his infinite Knowledge , which cannot be deceiued in vnderstanding any thing , and vpon his infinite Veracity which will not beguile vs in testifying an vntruth : It is impossible for God to lye , we haue a most strong comfort . But as it is impossible for God to lye , impossible for him to witnes that which may be false : So it is impossible for the habit of Fayth to incline , or for the act of Fayth to assent to that which is lyable to any falshood : As S. Thomas singularly well prooueth by these 3. Reasons . First , because nothing can belong to the habit or act of fayth , except that which appertaineth to theyr formall obiect , and in such sort as it is instilled , conueyed , and drawne from thence : Euen as no colour can be seene , vnlesse it be garnished with the beames of light . But to prime Verity no falsity can belong , not only any actuall falshood , but not so much as any thing that hath a possibility to be fals ; no more then any pronesse to euill can appertayne to soueraigne goodnes , or the least shadow of darknes to light inaccessable . Therfore Fayth , which hath prime Verity for her obiect , must not only be free from actuall errour , but from all lyablenes therunto , or possibility of erring . Secondly , euery act , euery habit , is necessarily lincked with equall proportion of certainty , or assurance , with the certainty of the obiect , of which it borroweth its dignity , nature , and forme : Wherfore as the prime Verity , and testimony of God ; so the habit , and act of Fayth , are both infallible . Thirdly , Fayth is an intellectuall Vertue which doth perfect , & enoble the faculty of our Vnderstanding , which cannot receaue the dye of perfection from any other thing then that which is true , because that only , as all Philosophers teach , is her proper , & peculiar obiect . Hence it is , that S. Paul describeth Fayth not only to be the substāce , that is , the setled ground , the constant , and stabl● foundation ( according to S. Dionysius ) of our hope , but also , an argument of things not appearing ; that is , a firme assent , a demonstratiō or Conuiction , as S. Augustine sayth , of our vnderstanding , which cannot be obnoxious to any danger of falsity . The second Principle presupposeth , that Faith must not only be infallible , but whole also , and entire : Witnes S. Athanasius in the beginning of his Creed , Whosoeuer doth not beleiue the Catholike faith wholy & i●uiolably , he shall vndoubtedly perish : And S. Leo : A great safeguard is faith entire , true faith , in which nothing can be added by any , nothing de●racted ; because vnlesse fayth be one , it is no fayth , the Apostle auerring , One Lord , One fayth . To which purpose our Sauiour himself auoucheth : He that beleiueth not , shall be condemned : that is ; he that beleiueth not euery Article , expresly or implicitely , he that beleiueth not the whole summe of Christian doctrine , shall incurre the forfaiture of his saluation . For as all thinges are to be obserued whatsoeuer Christ commanded ; so all thinges to be beleiued whatsoeuer he taught : and in such manner , that albeit the mysteries in themselues are some of lesse , some of greater moment , some necessary , some contingent ; yet as they are testified , & reuealed by God , they ought all with equall certaintie , with the same suretie to be credited & imbraced ; because God in all things little or great , necessarie or contingent , is equally great , & of infallible credit : Wherby euery Article is so fast riuetted , and conioyned one with the other , in such vniforme & due proportion , as they make , sayth S. Gregory Nazianzen , A Chayne truly golden , and soueraigne . From which , if your withdraw but one , you withdraw your saluation , as S. Ambrose writeth . The third principle is , that the ordinary meanes of atteyning the whole and infallible fayth , is from the mouth of the Church , from the lipps of her Priests , because fayth is by hearing , and hearing by the word of Christ : to wit , by the word expounded and preached vnto vs , by his lawfull Pastours : for it goeth immediatly before , How shall they heare without à Preacher , and how shall they preach vnlesse they be sent ? Whervpon it necessarily ensueth , that if they be sent from God to teach his heauenly doctrine , if we be bound to beleiue vpon their testification and preaching , their preaching must be certaine , their testification vndeceiuable , that we may securely receyue the word they deliuer ; not as the word of men , but as it is indeed the word of God , who by their mouthes speaketh , by their testimony sealeth , and witnesseth it vnto vs ; especially seeing he commandeth vs to heare them as himself , to obey them as his Vicegerents , to beleiue them vnder penaltie of damnation ; seing he giueth them the Holy Ghost , to teach them all truth , to sanctifie them in veritie , that we be not carryed about with any winde of doctrine . Therefore as God cannot immediatly by himself , or mediatly by any other , deliuer that which may be doubtfull or vncertaine ; so much lesse by the mouth of those his witnesses , his iudges , his interpreters , by whome he vttereth the Oracles of truth : as I might more fullie demonstrate , if I had not already elswhere vncontrollably euicted and proued the same Yea the very nature and condition of fayth , perforce requireth it ; for that being an assent of our vnderstanding to thinges not appearing , that is , not appearing true through the euidence of truth in themselues , or through the light of humane reason , but only by this Authority of God , who testifieth them not immediatly , but by the meanes of his Church , by the true Pastors , and expounders of his word ; if they might vary , or fluctuate in the rules they follow of expounding Scripture , their expositions were wauering , their preaching vncōstant , they could neither assuredly teach , nor we vndoubtedly giue credit to that which they propose , as to constant , stable , and immoueable truth . For it is a warrantable position of M. Whitakers ; Such as the meanes be , such of necessitie must be the interpretation it selfe : But the meanes of interpreting obscur● places are vncertaine ▪ doubtfull , and ambiguous : Then it cannot possibly be , but that the interpretation it self is vncertaine ; if vncertaine , then may it be false . But if it may be false , as M. Walker acknowledgeth the interpretation of the Protestants Church may be , it ouerthroweth the ground of fayth , the foundation of Religion . For what els can be , or any of his fellowes assig●e , on which they stay o● an●ker the certaintie of diuine beleife ? Their particuler pastor ? Their priuate spirit ? But if their Pastours in generall may trip and slumble ; how much more , their particular ? If the publicke spirit of their Church be errable , how deceiuable is their priuate ? Againe , the priuate spirit is hidden , it cannot be discouered and opened to others , and yet it is open it self to a thousand illusions . Therefore it must be tryed by some more known , and certaine spirit : What then , do you build vpō the voice of God that speaketh in the Scripture ? but that voyce is no other then the bare word or out ward letter of Holy writ ; of that ariseth our strife and debate . That also speaketh most errably to you , as your owne contentions and infinite hersies sprung from thence , beare euident witnes . If your reply , that it speaketh inerrably to such a read , and heare it with faith , and humilitie as they ought ; you send me still a rouing in the wildernes of vncertaintie ; for how shall I know who they be , that obserue those conditions as they ought ? And what is this , as they ought , after your Puritanicall , or Caluinian manner ? Lastly let it be ( for this wil be ) your last , and poorest refuge , that the true Church of IESVS Christ hath alwayes such well known to him ; what is this to you , if you know them not ? What if we disproue , as we plainly doe , your Church to be his ? Where are your humble Readers ? your faithfull interpreters ? Or to yield you the vttermost your can aske , though most impudently begged at our hands ; let there be such Readers , such Interpreters among you ; eyther they alwayes infallibly obserue the conditions specified , interpreting still a right , and then your Church by their direction , contrarie to your Tenent , can neuer erre : Or they fallibly obserue them , and so your Church may run astray , it cannot be the pillar of faith , the storehouse of truth , the voyce , or trumpet of supernaturall beleife ; as my last two Syllogismes printed by M. Walker vndeniably conclude : which as long as they shall remaine registred in his Pamphlet , so long shall it beare the record of his owne disgrace ; so long shall it proclayme the victorie of our Catholike cause ; so long shall the Protestant Church lie panting in the dust , without life , without strength , without vitall breath ? Now let vs behold what new life M. Walker can breath into it , to reuiue it againe ? Marry , that a true Christian Church may erre for a tyme , in some one fundamentall poynt , necessarie to saluation , he disputeth thus . M. WALKER . That which the auncient Apostolicall Church might doe , other succeeding Churches may doe , with the same successe . But the Apostolicall Church might erre , and did erre in a maine poynt , and yet haue a true faith , and was a true Church . Ergo , Other Churches also . M. SMITH . I deny the Minor. The Apostolical Church did not erre in a maine point of Fayth . M. WALKER . The act of Christs Resurrection from the dead taught in Scripture , is a fundamentall point of Fayth . The Apostolicall church did erre in it . Ergo &c. M. SMITH . I distinguish the Minor. The Apostles erred , or rather were ignorant of the act of Christes Resurrection , as a matter of fact , I graunt the Minor ; as an Article of faith , I deny it : for it was indeed a diuine verity , a true matter of fact at that tyme , yet no article of faith . M. WALKER . Behold Gentlemen he denyeth the Resurrection to be an Article of faith . M. Smiths Companion . You wilfully abuse him ; he denyeth it not absolutly , but only for that tyme , because it was not then sufficiently promulgated . M. WALKER . Reach me the Bible , I will shew the contrary in expresse words of Scripture . So opening the booke he read , how some of the Apostles knew not the Scriptures , that he must rise from the dead : how our Sauiour appeared to the eleauen Apostles , and vpbrayded their incredulity and hardnes of hart ▪ because they belieued not them who had seene him after he was risen . At this Syr William Harington houlding vp his handes , sayd : Oh , I protest I neuer heard any poynt so playnely prooued ! M. SMITH . Proued ? he hath proued nothing . For I graunt the Apostles were slow in belieuing , dull in vnderstanding the resurrection of Christ ; but I say , it was not then an article of fayth , which they were obliged expressely to belieue , because it was not so clearely promulgated , and proued vnto them , as to bynd them vnder the payne of Heresy , or note of Infidelity , at that tyme to imbrace . A Protestant Gentleman . Say you soe ? Was it not expressely reuealed in Scripture ? sufficiently promulgated by Christ himself ? M. SMITH . I acknowledge the reuelation of scripture , the promulgation of Christ sufficient in themselues ; yet not in respect of the Apostles capacity ; for they were yet rude and weake of vnderstanding , they had not as yet that inward illustration and light of the holy Ghost , those outward motiues , and arguments of credibility , which did binde them to giue infallible assent to so deep a mystery . They assented and belieued , that all was true which Christ sayd , all true which the Scriptures reuealed concerning his Resurrection ; yet they knew not whether the sense and meaning of those passages were to be taken truely or enigmatically , properly or figuratiuely . Of this only were they ignorant ; and this ignorance proceeded from their imbecillity and weakenesse , and not from the insufficiency of holy Scripture . The Gentleman satisfied with this , & M. Walker grauelled with the former answere , his reasoning was at an end : howbeit his brawling would haue no end , for the foresayd distinction held him at such a bay , as notwithstanding he bragged much of his dexterity in disputing , yet with all his cunning Sophistry he could not so much as frame one argument , one Syllogisme , or Enthimeme against it . But being in a monstrous rage , because his pryde could not brooke such a fowle ouerthrowe , I thought good to giue way to his chafing fit , and so departed with these very wordes : VVell , well ; I perceiue my distinction hath choked your argument , you are not able to proceed . Now , after that I arose and walked hard by , the other Priest that assisted me explicating the answere that I had giuen , sayd . M. Smiths Companion . It is not much to be meruailed , that the Apostles at the first conceaued not aright the Resurrection of Christ : for the Apostolicall Church was then in her infancy ; it was newly raysed , not wholy finished ; begun , but not perfected ; The Euangelicall law was deliuered , yet not fully established . And can this vndergoe the censure of any other doctrine , then sound and orthodoxall ? Or could M. Walker iustly vaunt of any allegation he brought against M. Smith ? Then read and detest the arrogant style of an hereticall Impostor , who blusheth not to print , after his confusion , these flourishing wordes . M. WALKER . M. Smith being put to silence with those proofes , the other Priest to make vs this breach , fled to another shift , and denyed the Apostles to haue byn a Church at that tyme , because the Holy Ghost was not yet come downe , nor the Euangelicall law reuealed . M. SMITH . If you were not already returned in open Court for a willfull lyar , forger , false Prophet , and Priest of Baal , your wordes might beare some shew of credit : but in so much as you are notoriously defamed for such an one , I onely intreat the Reader to iudge , whether I were silenced , or you ; whether my Companion fled to another shift , or defended the answere which I gaue : Whether you haue not writhed his wordes to a faulty strayne , of purpose to reprooue them . For he denyed not the Apostles to haue byn at that tyme a Church , nor that the Euangelicall law was reuealed ; but that it was not promulgated ; that the Church was not yet perfect , or law cōplete . For how could it be then fully cōplete , when it wanted diuers guiftes and endowments , necessary to the entyre complement and perfection therof ? When it wanted the spirituall comfort , and inward Vnction of the Holy Ghost ? When it wanted her outward promulgation essentially required to the establishmēt of a law ? When it wanted the guift of tongues , most requisit for the conuersion of all Nations ? When it wāted that vigour , or strength of verity , of which our Sauiour sayd : Tarry in the Citty till you be endued with power from high ? How then M. Walker , how could your conscience serue you to carpe , or reprehend that saying of his , strengthned and supported by such warrantable proofes ? To peruert and disorder the whole frame and methode of your owne disputation ? How could it serue you , 1. To charge me with tearming the Apostles ignorance or hardnesse of hart , an errour of forgetfulnesse ? 2. To faygne me to say , that the Scriptures had not expressely reuealed , how Christ should rise from the dead ? 3. To faygne , that I intreated you to shew it me out of the Ghospell ? 4. That I persisted still , how the Scriptures had not sufficiently reuealed it ? All most iniurious and hideous lyes . Notwithstāding these leasinges of his , or selfe-deuised fancyes , he mustreth a band of three seuerall probations , and graceth the last with the admiratiō or solemne acclamation of one of his Assistantes , howbeit it was vsed vpon another occasion . Such is euery where the iugling of that vain-glorious Sycophant : yet he dischargeth me from the labour of refuting his arguments , sith they are nothing else but engines raysed to batter the forts of his owne conceits : which neuertheles he suffereth not to fall to the ground without the sound of his fellowes applause , praysing himselfe for ouercomming himselfe , in such a skirmish , in which he is both the assayler , and the assayled , he the Maister , and he the maystered , idely conquering , and basely conquered both at once . Moreouer he reprooueth me for making a strange distinction between a thing , as he tearmeth it , and it selfe : because I sayd , that the act of Christs Resurrection was a true matter of fact , a diuine Verity , yet no article of fayth , which the Apostles then were bound expresly to belieue . But is this so strange ? I will giue you an instance of the like strange distinction . The validity of baptisme ministred by Heretiks was alwayes a diuine Verity , alwayes a truth sufficiently reuealed in holy Scriptures , in the first of S. Iohn , and the third of S. Luke , where it is written : It is he that baptizeth : Christ is the principall agent , whose action cannot be frustrated by the faultes of his instrument ; yet this was not alwayes an article of fayth , vntill it was publickly defined by the Consistory of Gods Church ; which caused Vincentius Lirynensis to free them from heresy who defended the contrary before ; to condemne such as persisted in vpholding it after the definition ; his wordes are these : O wonderfull change and alteration of thinges ! The Fathers of one and selfe same opinions are adiudged Catholiques , the followers Heretiques ; the maysters are acquitted , the disciples condēned ; the wryters of bookes shall be Sonnes of the kyngdome , the maintainers of the same shall be cast into hell ▪ Finally M. Walker for his vpshot , relateth the commendation a Catholike gaue him of his noble conquest after he was thus discomfited . I reprint his words , which he for very shame disguiseth vnder the cloke of a third person . M. WALKER . When the Priestes were very willing to make an end , and the Protestant Gentlemen seemed well satisfied , and made them ready to depart ; One of the Roman Catholiques calling M. Walker aside , began to collogue and flatter with him , telling him , that he was a good Logician , a good Linguist , and well read , and that God had giuen him a sharp wit and ready tongue , and therfore no meruaile though he preuayled , and made a good cause seeme bad when he opposed it , and a bad cause seem good , when he defended it . M. SMITH . Fye , fie , M. Walker ! Are you so greedy of a little vayn-glory as thus to blazon with your owne pen ( for you penned the whole summe though you maske it vnder another vizard ) the false lustre of your supposed talents ? Of such as neuer were acknowledged by any of your Pew-fellowes in Cābridge , much lesse extolled by the mouth of a Catholike ? For I enquired of the Gētlemā who cōferred with you , & he solemnly protesteth before God and man , and is ready , if need require , to confirme it with his Oath , yea and iuridically to diuulge it to all the word : First , that he neuer gaue you those high titles of commendation , which you set downe ; Secondly , that the Courtly complements he cast vpon you were meerely in iest by the figure of Ironia , as the Wisedome of God iested at Adam after his fall , saying : Loe Adam is become as it were one of vs , knowing good and euill : yet such was your quick and subtile wit so worthy of admiration , as it conceiued that to be spoken in good earnest , which was vttered in derision , to laugh you to scorne . By which , and by all the former passages , euery indifferēt man may easily perceiue , 1. How poore a Religion Protestancy is , and how weake a Patrone heere she had , who could bring no better propps to sustaine it , then knauery , fraudulency , lyes , and falsifications . 2. How Thraso-lyke M. Walker boasteth of the Victory , and endeth the scene of his fabulous discourse with that triumphātsentence , Magna est veritas & praeualet ; Great is ▪ truth and it doth preuaile . For vnlesse salshood may be inthroned in the chaire of Truth , and Vanity possesse the seat of Verity ; farre , too-too farre is he from preuayling , who hath ben conuicted , and notably disgraced with so many tergiuersations , digressions , forgeryes , and grosse absurdityes ; who hath byn driuen to such shamefull begging of the principall question ; to grant that after , which before he had denyed ; to deny that now , which he formerly granted ; yea to a flat ●ntrariety and playne contradiction ▪ the greatest ●yles a Scholler can take : He I say , who hath byn ●ot only vanquished and defeated , but chased out ●f the field at euery encounter . In which neuertheesse if he had stood , and vpheld his quarrell ( as God forbid he should ; ) seeth he not what horrible crimes he had layd to the Apostles charge ? What ●famies on their flock ? Seeth he not what a breach ●e had made in Syon ? What ruines in his owne Ierusalē ? For by attaching the Apostolicall Church of erring in a fundamentall point , manifestly reuealed in holy Scripture , and often intimated by the Sonne of God , he attacheth it of Infidelity , he enditeth it of Heresie , and wholy depriueth it of the happy meanes of saluation . For the entire profession of sauing truth ( as Caluin , Field , and other prime Protestants confesse with vs ) is necessary to the state of saluatiō , which the Apostolical Church wanted , when it erred , according to him , in that essentiall article of Christs Resurrection ; it wanted then the soueraigne meanes of attayning eternall blisse ; and so could not be the spouse of Christ , the gate of life , the temple of God , or Church of his beloued sonne ; without all-sauing truth , it is impossible to be his sauing Church . The same is more strongly confirmed by the dotage it selfe . M. Walker very dotingly laboured to proue ( or else proued nothing for his purpose , ) That the Apostolike Church erred in a fundamentall point necessary to saluation ; For if it was necessary , the Church could not be saued without it ; if it might be saued without it , it was not an article at that tyme necessary to be belieued . Neyther doth he only bereaue that pure and primitiue flocke of the riches of blisse , of the integrity of fayth in that one he specified , but by the same argument , in all other points of belief . For as by one mortall sinne the Vertue of charity is wholy expelled , according to S. Iames , He that offendeth in one , is made guilty of all : so by one only Heresy , or act of Infidelity the habit of fayth is vtterly lost , which S. Paul teacheth , affirming , that Hymenaus and Alexander made ship wrack of their fayth , albeit they only denied one sole article , to wit , the future Resurrection of our flesh . Which the Fathers witnesse , when they auouch , that such as fall into Heresy , are degraded of the dignity and right of Christianity . Which D. Whitaker also approueth , saying : If any one fundamentall point of doctrine be remoued , the Church presently falleth . Wherupon it followeth , that the Apostolicall Church was presently buried in her owne ruines ; that the Apostles made ship wrack of their fayth ; that they were no Chistians when they beleeued not the Resurrection of Christ , if then they were bound to receiue it as a fundamentall article of their beliefe . Nay it followeth hereon , that the whole fould of Christ ( for it was wholy no doubt inwrapped in the Apostles errour ) became ( ô monstrous impiety and most hellish consequence ! ) became I say , a heard of Miscreants , a band of Infidells , a den of Apostataes . The chast and vndefiled spouse of Christ ( I dread to think it ) fell to be an Adulteresse ; his pure Virhin , the harlot of Sathan . And because that which befell the Apostolicke Church may by M. Walkers owne Logick , befall in lyke manner vnto all other Churches ; the Protestants Church , not only by meere possibility , but actually also may be stayned with Heresies , tainted with Apostasie , blinded with Infidelity , wholy reuolt and fall from Christ. And if once it may doe so , we cā at no tyme ( as I haue already declared ) be infallibly certain , that thē it doth not so ; we may alwayes doubt , or feare at least , that now it doth so . On the other side , because our Sauiour testifieth of his Church , that it cannot possibly be diuorced from him , that it is an euerlasting Kingdome , not possible to be ouercome , not by the gates of hell , that it is guarded by the Holy Ghost , neuer able to be misguided ; that it is a pure Virgin , not able to be spotted with any disloyalty : The spouse of Christ cannot play the adulteresse , sayth S. Cyprian : Therfore the Protestantes Church , which may really be naught , may actually fall , and prostitute her selfe to some filthy or distoyall errour , can by no means be the true Spouse , the true Church , the true Kingdome , or Campe of Christ ; nor enioy the dowryes , possesse the treasures of his inerrable Truth . FINIS . Laus Deo , Deique genitrici Mariae . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A08330-e130 Ruffin in Apol. pro Orig. Aug. in breui . Collat . Tanner . in relat . comp●nd . de collat . Ratisb . Idem apparet ex protocollo . Isa. 〈◊〉 . v. 15. Psal. 5. v. 7. Hier. ● . v. ● . The first Copie which miscaried , was carried in all likelihood to M● . Walker , that he may be furnished before hand with his Replie . Notes for div A08330-e570 Yet M. Rogers among his articles to which this minister did , or ought to haue sworne hath : The visible Church is a Catholike Church . art . 1● . Cyp. l. 4. ep . 9. Idem ep . 52. Aug. de ver a relig . cap. 7. Idem ep . 170. contra Crescon . l. 1. ca. 29. de baptis contra Donatist . l. 3. ca. 16. Tract . 6. in Iohan ▪ de fi●e ad Petrum cap. 19. Ioan. 10. v. 16. Math. 18. v. 17. VVhitaker ●cntro 2. q. 5. ca. 17. & 18. See how cunningly he diuerteth from his owne exception , and from D. Whitakers expresse wordes , who sayeth : Quaestio non est de notis inuisibilis Ecclesiae &c. The Question is not of the marks of ●●e inuisible Church . Contro . 2. q ● ca. 18. fol 494. & cap. ●1 . Nos non inuisibilis Ecclesiae , sed veras certasque n●tas visibilis Ecclesiae quaerimus . VVhitak in respon . ad 3. rat . Camp. VVhitak . ●ontro . 2. q. 5. cap. 17. 13. Vt causae effection prof●● &c. ita veritas Ecclesi●● constitute ●●●sque caus● est . VVitak . in resp . ad 3. rat . Cāp . Hanc tu definitionem in natiuis ipfius rei quam definimus &c. Controu . 2. q. 5. ca. 17. Quae definiunt , ea denotant Ecclesiam &c. Sic quid sit Equus , Leo , Aquila ex definitione e●icitur . Contro . ● ▪ q. ● . c. 18. In resp . ad 3. rat . Cāp . ●stas nos Ecclesiae verissimas atque 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 proprietates esse defendimus . It is the second of his ● Conclusions printed at the end of his Confedance . Protestāts can chalenge no more certaynty , then all other heretikes haue done . Their ridiculous answere that they cannot erre , as long as they speake true &c. The first Corruption of the Protestants Bible argued and euinced . In which they haue altered both the mood & tense written by God. Isa. 5● . v. 〈◊〉 . Luc. 10. v. 16. Deut. 17. v. 8. & 9. These & diuers other passages , which I heer omit , I haue more largely discussed in the 3. part . of my Antid . chap. 1. 2. & ● . Ioan. 11. v. 51. Chrysost. hom . 4. in ●oan . Aug ▪ ● . de Pasto. cap. 10. Velint , nolint pastoresverba Dei dicturi sunt . Exod. 20. Malae . ● . v. 7. Cyril . in hun● lo●ū . Chrys. in ● . ad T●moth . Exod. 20. A dilemma vnanswerable . The second corruption examined , and proued to be such . Prouerb . c. 16. v. 6 ▪ M. Walker in his printed summe pag. 25 ▪ Ibidem . Exod. 3● . v. 2. Genes . 27. v. 40. VValk . in his printed Summe . pag. 27. Matth. ●0 . v. 24. 25. Helias Leuita in Praefat. Massorethi Rabbi Dauid Kimki in Psal. 60. Galat. l. 1. c. 8. & vltimo . Genebrar . in suo Chronol . ad an 476 Lindan . de opt . gen . l. 1. cap. 6. Senensis l. 8. haer . 13. Arias Montanus in Praefa . ad Biblia . Viv● hoe habeat , illud omnibus in constanti , certeue est , vocalium , notarum inuentionem consonantibus Haebraicis minimè esse coequam . This was his saying , though M. Walker setteth a false glosse vpon it . Athanas ▪ in synop . Aug. q. 49. Theod. in Deutrono . q. 1. Cornesius de Lapid● sup . Deut. in pro●m . Some other corruptions brieflie vrged . 1. Cor. 2. I pray you brethren keepe my Ordinances . The like ● . Thessa. 2. Math. 15. VVhy do you transgresse the Commaūdements of God , by your Traditions ? 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Luc. 20. & 〈◊〉 . but 2. Thessal . 1. they translate it truely . Psal. 118. v. 112. ad Rom. 5. v. 17. 18. 21. Act. 13. v. 2. Reynolds in his 2. Conclus . VVhitaker . contro , ● . Aug. lib. de mendacio cap. 8. Fayth & doubtfulnes cānot comply togeather of one & the same thing . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ▪ ● . parua . M. Walker was affrayd this last argumēt of mine , should come to light , therefore he purposely suppresseth it in his Sūme Aug. cōt . Maxim. lib. 2. Three remarkable principles ● . Ad Heb. ● . v. 18. 8. Thom ▪ 1. 2. q. 1. art . 3. & Scholast . 3. dist ▪ 24. 25. Ad Heb. 11. v. 1. Dionys ▪ de diui . nom . cap. 7. Aug. lib. 13. de Tri●i● . cap. 1. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . The 2 ▪ Principle . Leo. ser. 4. in solem . Natiu . Ephes. 4. Mar. 16. v. 16. Math. 28. v. 20. Greg. ora . 37. Amb. ad ● . 9. Lucae l. 6 : The 3. principle . Rom. 5. v. 17. Ibid. v. 14. 1. Thes. 2. v. 2● Luc. 10. Ioh. 16 & 17. Ephes. 4. In the 3. Part of my An ▪ tid . chap. ● . and 6. VVhit . cont . 2. q. 4. pag. 221. This argument crosseth it selfe in termes , for if the Church erred in a fundamentall poynt , it was not true ; if true , it erred not . Io. 20. v. 9. Mar. 16. v. 14. M. Walker silenced with the first distinctiō made against him . Loe the vanitie of a vanquished minister . 8. Thom. ● . ● . q. 90. art . 4. Luc. cap. 14. v. 48. Are not these Ministera wicked children ? a lying seed ▪ Ioan. 1. v. 33. Luc. 3. v. 10. Vincent contra Propha . cap. 11. Oh the pride ! Oh the folly of this man ! Gen. 3. v. 22. Esdr. 3. c. 4. v. 41. Caluin . ● . 4. Instit. c. 2. §. 1. Feild in 2. booke of the Church c. 3. & 4. Ia● . 2. v. 10. 1. Tim. 1. v. 20. Aug. l. de har . ●eron . ●du . Lucif . c. ● . VVhitak . cont . 2. q. ● . c. 1● . Note the blasphemles , which ensue of M. Walkers argumēt : and the misery of Protestās who cannot make their false Church true , vnlesse they make the true Church false . Osee 2. Dan. 2. v. 44. Luc. 1. Matth. 16. 2. Corinth . 11. Cypr. tom . ● . epist. 73.