A Christian dialogue, betweene Theophilus a deformed Catholike in Rome, and Remigius a reformed Catholike in the Church of England Conteining. a plaine and succinct resolution, of sundry very intricate and important points of religion, which doe mightily assaile the weake consciences of the vulgar sort of people; penned ... for the vtter confusion of all seditious Iesuites and Iesuited popelings in England ... Bell, Thomas, fl. 1593-1610. 1609 Approx. 323 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 74 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-12 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A07782 STC 1816 ESTC S101425 99837239 99837239 1554 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . 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Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Catholic Church -- Controversial literature. 2005-03 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2005-04 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-05 Judith Siefring Sampled and proofread 2005-05 Judith Siefring Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A CHRISTIAN DIALOGVE , BETWEENE THEOPHILVS A DEFORMED CATHOLIKE IN ROME , AND Remigius a reformed Catholike in the Church of England . Conteining . A plaine and succinct resolution , of sundry very intricate and important points of religion , which doe mightily assaile the weake consciences of the vulgar sort of people ; penned for the solace of all true hearted English subiects , and for the vtter confusion of all seditious Iesuites and Iesuited Popelings in England or else where , so long as they shall persist inordinately in their nouelties , heresies , errours , and most grosse and palpable superstions . Ecclesiast . Cap. 4. Ver. 28. Striue for the truth vnto death , and defend Iustice for thy life , and the Lord shall fight for thee against thine enemie . Prou. Cap. 12. Ver. 1. He that loueth instruction , loueth knowledge ; but he that hateth correction , is a foole . LONDON , Printed by Nicholas Okes , for VVilliam VVelby , and are to be sold at his Shop in Paules Church-yard , at the signe of the Gray-hound . 1609. TO THE RIHGT VVORSHIPFVLL MY APPROVED GOOD FRIENDS , SIR STEuen Procter , Sir Timothie Whittingham , Sir Vincent Skinner , and Sir Timothie Hutton , Knights ; and his Maiesties most zealous , vp●ight , & painfull Iustices of the Peace . HAuing published many bookes in defence of the truth , against the aduersaries of the truth , ( the Pope , his Cardinals , Iesuites , and Iesuited Popelings I meane ) and perceiuing by many arguments , that sundry of my deare Country men are not yet fully resolued in certain maine points of religion , vpon which all the rest , in some sort , do depend ; I haue deemed it a labour very necessary for the common good , to dispute those most intricate points pro & contra Dialogue-wise ; that so all difficulties therein may bee cleered , all obscurity taken away , and the truth plainly laid open , before the eyes of euery indifferent reader . The Papists most impudently bragge and boast , that they maintaine , keepe and defend that faith and doctrine which S. Peter and S. Paul , deliuered to the Romans , that neither their Pope , nor their Church can erre , that their Church , and none but their Church , is able to shew and truly to proue a perpetuall vninterrupted succession of their Bishops and Priests : that the written word of God containeth not all things necessary to be beleeued vnto saluation , for that it sheweth not the holy Bible to be canonical and that originall sinne remaineth only materially in the bodies of the regenerate , and not formally in their mindes , wils , and hearts . All these points , and euery of them ( though most difficult and intricate ) I haue taken in hand to confute , relying vpon Gods holy assistance , who neuer forsaketh the truth . What I haue performed , let your wisedomes and others iudge . The work such as it is , I dedicate to your worships , not only to giue as a signe of a gratefull minde for your kinde fauours to me-ward ; but much more to intimate to the world , that inward ioy of mine heart , which issueth out of your rare zeale to Gods eternall truth , constant loyalty to your most gracious Soueraigne , and painefull labours for the good of our Church and Common-weale . The almighty giue you many happy yeares vpon earth , and vouchsafe to increase his manifold graces in you , that you may dayly more and more ( and others by your Christian example ) imploy your painefull labours for the aduancement of his glorious Gospell , the cutting downe of sinne , the extirpation of late start-vp ▪ Popery , and the rooting out of all traiterous Iesuites , and Iesuited Popelings , which haue beene , and still are , too much fauoured and winked at , by sundry in authority , especially in these North-parts of noble England . Dixi. March. 21. 1609. Your worships to be commanded , THOMAS BELL. A Table of the Chapters contained in this Booke . CHAP. 1. Of the old Roman and ancient Church of Rome . Pag. 1. CHAP. 2. Of the false and erroneous faith of the late Bishops of Rome . Pag. 11. CHAP. 3. Of sundry important obiections , which seeme to proue the Popes prerogatiue of faith . Pag. 26. CHAP. 4. Of the Succession of Bishops , in the Church of Rome . Pag. 66. CHAP. 5. Of Popish vnwritten Traditions . Pag. 102. CHAP. 6. Of the state of the regenerate , with the particular adiuncts of the same . Pag. 121. CHAP. 1. Of the old Roman and auncient Church of Rome . Theophilus . GOD blesse you Father Remigius , I hope you will this day yeeld great comfort to my distressed heart ; for I haue often heard , that you are both pro●undly learned , and charitably affected to all your Christian neighbours ; so as for your great learning you are very able , and for your rare charitie euer ready , to giue good counsell to such , as stand in neede of you : I therefore for Christs sake beseech you , to shew me the ready way to heauen . Remig. To beleeue rightly and liue christianly , is your very path-way to Heauen : but it is a straight and narrow gate , and few do finde the same . Theoph. Alas , my good father , then shall more be damned then saued , God forbid , it should be so . Remig. That which God hath decreed , man cannot withstand . Many ( saith Christ , ) are called , but few are chosen . Striue to enter in at the straight gate ; for many will séeke to enter in , and shall not be able . Yet our most mercifull and iust God , will condemne none to eternall death ; but for their notorious sinnes , and iust deserts . Theoph. We may exclaime with holy Polycar●e , ô God , to what a world hast thou reserued vs ? &c. Now euery one can giue good words , both in the Pulpit and else where ; but badder life and wickeder dealing , was neuer more frequent in any towne or City . The Catholiques , for good life and meritorious actes , are the mirror of the Christian world . Remig. Whom doe you call Catholikes ? I am a Catholique my selfe . Theoph. The Pope , his Cardinals , his Monkes , his Fryers , his holy Nunnes , and all such as agree in faith and doctrine with the Church of Rome . Remig. If you speake of Pope Formosus , Pope Iohn degraded him , and brought him to laicall state againe , after he had béene the Bishop of Portua . Hée further tooke him sworne , that hée neither should be Bishop again , not euer returne to the Citie of Rome . Howbeit , Pope Martin absolued him from his oath , and after a few yéeres , he did notonely come to Rome , but there was made the Pope . If you speake of Pope Stephanus y● sixt ▪ he persecuted Pope Formosus euen after his death . He called a Councell , and disanulled all the decrées of Pope Formosus his predecessour . He caused his body to be brought into his Cōsistory , the papall induments to be taken away , a laicall habite to be put on she dead corps , two fingers of his right hand to be cut off ; and that done , forsooth , his body to be put againe into the graue . Meane you Pope Sergius the third ? he caused Pope Formosus ( who now had béen dead almost ten whole yéeres ) to be taken out of his tombe , and to be set in a chaire with pontificall attire vpon his backe ; that done , he commanded his head to be cut off , and to be cast into their●iuer Tyber . Meane you Pope Iohn y● twelfth ? his father Albericus being a man of great power and might , enforced the Nobles to take an oath , that after the death of Pope Ag●pitus , they would promote his sonne Octauianus to the Popedome : The oath was accomplished , and he was named Iohn . He was a great hunter , and a man of licencious life : he kept women openly to the notorious scandall of the Church , insomuch , that some of the Cardinals wrote to O●to then King of the Saxons , to come and besiege Rome , and so to afflict him for his sins . Which the Pope perceiuing , commanded the Cardinals nose to be cut off , that gaue that counsell ; and his hand , that wrote the letters Speake you of Pope Boniface the seuenth ? he was made Pope by the Romans after they had thr●t●ed Benedictus the sixt : who afterward not able to tarrie in the City , robbed S. Peters Church of all the ●●asure in it , and fled to Constantinople . Means you Pope Benedict the eight ? he was seene after his death , as it were corporally riding vpon a blacke horse ( the Diuell . ) he confessed that he was in great torment , & therefore desired some money to be giuen to the poore , because all that he had giuen the poore aforetime , was gotten by robbery and extortion . Meane you Pope Iohn the woman ? she belying her sexe , and clad in mans attire , was with great admiration of her sharpe wit and singular learning , chosen to be the Pope of Rome . But shortly after by the familiar helpe of her beloued companion , she brought forth the homely fruits of her Popedome . Meane you Pope Boniface the eight ? he made a constitution , in which he called himselfe both Lord spirituall & Lord temporal of the whole world : whereupon he required Philip the French King , to acknowledg that he held his Kingdom of him : which when the King scorned to doe , he gaue his Kingdome to him thatcouldget it . This Pope entred as a Foxe , reigned as a Wolf , and died as Dog. What shal I say of your Monks or Fryers ? Pope Siluester the second was first a Monke , a Frēchman borne , Gilbe●●us by name : he promised homage to the Diuell , so long as he should accompli●h his desires : who being very ambitious , did so often expresse his desire to the Diuell , as he made homage to him . He was first made Archbishop of Rhemes ; then of Rauennes , at the last Pope of Rome : for the Diuell knowing his ambitious minde , brought him to honour by degrées . All this to be most true , these Popish writers of high estéeme euen in the Church of Rome ( viz. Geniblacensis , Marianus Scotus , Ba●●holemeus Carranza , Martinus Polonus , Philippus , Bergomensis , Bapt. Platina , & Palmerius , ) haue publishes it in printed books to the view of the whole world , which doubtlesse they would neuer haue done , if the truth it selfe had not enforced their pennes thereunte . For the holy life of your Iesuites and Iesuited br●●d , I will say nothing ; their deare bréethren the secular Priests , ha●● related that matter sufficiently , in many bookes late extant in print against them : they charge them with pride , ambition , couetousnesse , cozenage , theft , cruelty , murther , treason , and what not ? yea , of Frier Parsons , they giue this testimony in particular , viz. by Parsons platformes , secular Priests must depend vpon Blacwel , and Blackwel vpon Garnet , and Garnet vpon Parsons , & Parsons the Priests bastard vpon the Diuel . Read the Anatomy of Popish tiranny , and there then shalt find this truth , with great variety of like matter . I let passe , what Polidorus Virgilius , Abbas , Panormitanus . & Pope Pius himselfe , before called Aeneas Syluius , haue written of the filthy life of Popish Priests , Monkes , Friers , and Nunnes . Peruse the suruey of popery , and the triall of the new religion ; and that done , the truth will shew it selfe herein : For , if S. Austin said truly that in his time all was full of humane superstitions , with the seruile burdens whereof men were so pressed , as the Iewes estate vnder their legall ceremonies was more tollerable , then the state of Christians : Truely may we say much more , of the last and worst daies . Theoph. S. Peter & S. Paul deliuered the Catholique saith to the Church of Rome ; and the succession from S. Peter and S. Paul , kept S. Augustine in the vnity of the Church . So writeth S. Austen of himselfe . Remigius . True it is first , that both S. Peter and S. Paul preached at Rome , and for the testimony of Christs Gospell were there put to death , both on one day , not both in one yeare ; the one beheaded , the other crucified : none well studied in the auncient fathers , & histories of the Church , will or can this deny : true it is secondly , that many Bishops of Rome were holy men , who constanly yéelded vp their liues ( as become holy martyrs , ) for the testification of the truth of Christs Gospell : true it is ●●irdly , that S. Austen saith of himselfe , that the succession of Priests from S. Peter , was one thing amongst many that kept him in the Church : true it is fourthly , that the mai●sty of the Roman Empire , together with the great liberality , which the Romans exhibited to the Martyrs in exile and otherwise afflicted , yéelded no small honour to the City and Church of Rome : and hereupon ( I will it not deny ) it came to passe , that the auncient councels had euer great respect to the dignity and excellency of Cities , in the distribution of Episcopall and Patriarchall seates : hereupon it likewise came , that the West and Occidentall Churches ( not so the East-churches ) did greatly reuerence the Church of Rome ; and many times to appease controu●●sies and dissentions , had recourse vnto it , as to the Mother-church and auncient nurse of the faith : which things S. Augustin beholding together with the succession , ( not barely of place or persons , but ) of Bishops , in faith , ●●ctrine , and holy conuersation , was confirmed in the vnity of the Church : for so as then , so now , nothing doth or can yéeld greater comfort or solace to a Christian heart , then to behold the lines of Gods ministers to be agreable to their doctrine , and their doctrine to be consonant to the word of God : for , what man would not rather in any difficulty , haue recourse to that Minister and Preacher , whose life is agréeable to his doctrine , then vnto him , who though he preach pleasantly , yet liueth not accordingly ? None doubtlesse . For this respect said the holy Apostle to the Romans , that through their euill life , the word of God was blasphemed among the Gentiles : and for this respect likewise , are the Bere●ms highly commended in holy writ , in that they examined the Apostles doctrine by the liue and rule of Gods word : yea , for this respect doth the holy vessell of our Lord Iesus , very grauely admonish the Hebrwes , to consider the end of their conuersation who , haue preached Gods word vnto them : but for all this , no auncient councell , no holy father , no history Ecclesiasticall , did euer ascribe this supereminent prerogatiue to the Bishop of Rome , that he could no erre in his iudiciall and definitiue resolutions : neither euer was the Bishop of that Sea acknowledged , for the sole and onely iudge in controuersies of religion : this is to be so , one onely testimony of S. Cyprian will or at least may suffice : for S. Cyprian a very auncient father , a great learned Bishop , and amost blessed martyr , although he highly reuerenced the Church of Rome , for respects now related , and consequently the Bishops thereof , yet was he so farre from acknowledging , the falssy now vsurped prerogatiue of the Bishop of Rome , that his faith could not faile , that he flatly reiected his opinion , contemned his definitiue sentence , and decided his iudiciall decrées , calling him blind buzzard , and arrogāt Prelat . The like I might alledge cut of many famous papists ; Adrianus , Panormit : nus Alphon●us , Gersonus , Ockamus and others : but this ●onu●ceth , that neither S. Austin nor any aunciēt father in their time , nor the Bishop of Rome , did obiect against S. Cyprian , that the said Bishop could not erre . Theoph. This is a wonderment to me , that our Popes , Monkes , and Iesuites , haue beene so licentious and wicked liuers : but seeing so many famous Popish writers and the late secular . Romish Priests , haue in printed bookes published to the whole world , testified so much of and against them , it maketh me to stagger , and to doubt of the Romith religion , although informer times , I haue high reuerenced the same : for if the Bishop of Rome had beene priuiledged not to erre , not onely the Bishop of Rome , but the holy fathers also of that age , would haue obiected the same against S. Cyprian , vndoubtedly it cannot be denied . Remig. You neither are nor euer were , a more earnest & zealous papist , then my selfe haue béene : but I heartily thanke God for it , I now behold as clearely as the noone day , the absurdities and abhominations of late vpstart popery , the case is so cleare , as euery child of God may with all facility perceiue the same . Theoph. Why doe you call it ( late vpstart popery , ) it hath continued from S. Peter , and euery Pope is his successor . Remig. This is one mighty point , which hath not onely seduced and be witched you , but both many others , and myne owne selfe , aswell as you . I truely cald it . ( late vpstart popery , ) because of ten parts it , scarscely retaineth two parts of the old Roman religion , which S. Peter and S Paul by their preaching , deliuered to the Church of Rome : yea since the Iesuites began , ( which was about the yeare 1537. ) popish religion is ten times more absurd , then it was afore . Theoph. The Catholikes hold constantly , that the true faith and religion which S. Peter and S. Paul preached at Rome , hath euer continued at Rome vntill this present day ; and that no other Church in the Christian world , is able to shew a perpetuall and vninterrupted succession of their Bishops and priests , saue onely the Church of Rome . Remig. This is my answere . First , that the word ( Catholike ) is an holy and auncient name , giuen in the beginning to all Christians and faithfull people in the world , and therefore is it this day highly reuerenced , and continually rehearsed in the publicke prayers of our English Church : but there be two sortes of Catholikes , the one deformed , the other reformed , which reformed Catholikes , are all the true members of our English Church , and all such as consesse and embrace the same faith and doctrine with them : Secondly , that the faith and doctrine , which S. Peter and S. Paul preached to the old Romans , remaineth at Rome indéede : but how ? no otherwise , doubtlesse , then an old beggars cloake remaineth still to the beggar , though it haue an hundred clouts of diuerse colours , added and fastened one to another : Thirdly , that our English Church is able to shew a better and sounder perpetuall and vninterrupted succession of her Bishops and Priests , then the late vpstact Church of Rome . Theoph. What , are you English-men Catholikes ? you are ( say we at Rome ) flat heretikes and apostataes , as whom , many late Popes of Rome , haue accursed to the deepe pit of hell . Remig. You know there is a sort of Fryers at Rome , commonly called the Franciscans , ( which sect was hatched and borne in the yéere 1206. ) who haue by little and little swarued from their first institution , and become so licentious and dissolute , that another sect of Fryers commonly called Capuchéenes , ( which thing , you béeing a Citizen of Rome , knowe aswell as my selfe . ) haue accused them to haue depraued and fowly peruerted the rules of their auncient order , sect , and profession , in so much , as they cannot this day with safe consciences embrace the same , and therefore haue they reformed their said sect , and doe terme themselues the reformed true Franciscans indéede : this ( if it be duely considered , ) is doubtlesse this day our case , in our Church of noble England , as also of many other reformed Churches , within the Christian world : for as the Capuchéenes hold fast , kéepe still , and constantly defend , all the auncient rules of the old and true Franciscans , and duely reiect and abandon that , which by little & little crept into their sect , ( supertition abuses , neglect of discipline , and dissolute life , ) euen so is it this day in our Church of England . she holdeth fast , kéepeth still , and most constantly deserd●th , all and euery rite of the old Roman religion , highly reuerencing the same , as Catholike and Apostolike doctrine . Shee onely reiecteth and abandoneth , heresies , errors , superstitions , and intollerable abuses , by little and little brought into the Church , ( the enemy the dinel hauing sowen tares , while the carelesse pastors were a sléepe : ) For neither did most noble Quéene Elizabeth in her time , neither doth our most pious & religious Soueraigne King IAMES , ( who most happily raigneth ouer vs , ) set vp or bringe into the Church any new religion , but he , as Quéene Elizabeth before , onely reformeth & purgeth the Church , after the holy examples of King Dauid , King Salomon , King Iosaphat , King Ezechias , King Iosias , and other godly and zealous Kings in their daies , and carefully reduceth it to the primitiue order , and to the purity of the old Roman religion . This to be so , none can in conscience deny , that will with a single eye this day behold thegodly setled Canons of this Church of England . Theoph. If you were able to proue vnto me , that the Church of Rome did any time swarne or reuolt from the old Roman religion , I would doubtlesse forsake the late romish doctrine ( as you terme it , ) and ioyfully yeelde vnto the truth . Remig. I shall proue it by the power of God , and assistance of his holy spirit , before the end of this our conference , if you like to stay to the end thereof , and be not wearied with my discourse . Theoph. God reward you for your Christian kindnesse and this paineful trauaile for my sake , your talke is so comfortable to myne heart , that I shall not be weary thereof , though I should stay an whole yeare in your company : but I feare me I shall be too chargeable to you , if I tarry long with you . Remig. I liue ( as you sée ) like a scholler , and kéepe but a sparing diet : if you can content your selfe therewith , I shall ioy thereat : For I know assuredly , that our mercifull God , who , fréely without my deserts , sendeth me al things necessary for my bodily sustenance and who hath also fréely promised , not to suffer a cuppe of cold water giuen in his name , to passe at any time without reward , will neuer sée or suffer me to want things necessary to my selfe , for bestowing Christian hospitality , vpon my neighbour for his sake : yéeld therefore your serious attention , and ye shall behold these thrées things as cleare as the noo●e day : viz. the false and erroneous faith of your Bishops of Rome , their most brttish and de●estable liues , and their interrupted and most uncerta●● ▪ succession as which is so mingled and mangled , or rather so defaced and vtterly extinguished , that no man can tell , what indéede to make thereof . Of which thrée points , while I shall distinctly discourse , I would haue you to put forth plainly and at large , all such doubts as any way doe trouble you : for that I hold the best course , for your full satisfaction and confirmation in the truth , of the true , auncient Cathalike , and orthodore faith . CHAP. 2. Of the false and erroneous faith of the late Bishops of Rome . Theophilus . VVE at Rome hold it constantly for an article of the Chatholike faith , that our Popes and Bishops are the successors of S. Peter , and therefore can they not erre in faith or doctrine , no more then S. Peter could ; for whose faith Christ prayed , that it should neuer faile . Remig. How the late Bishops of Rome are S. Peters successors , it shall be shewed ( God willing ) in the chapter of succession . Let vs now vnfold , and sincerely examine , the faith and doctrine of some speciall Popes in particular , for the view and consideration of a few will be a sufficient tryall for all the rest . Theoph. I must needes yeeld thereunto , for we hold it a part of the Catholike faith , that Christs prayer was effectuall for all S. Peters successors alike , so as if any one of them can be conuinced to haue erred , we cannot safely relie and ground our faith vpon the rest . Remig. That the Bishops or Popes of Rome ( as ye call them , ) may become heretikes , yea , that they haue béene heretikes de facto , it is a thing so cleare , as I shall not neede to stand long vpon the same : for , many popish decrées and Papall constitutions tell vs , that Popes may be deposed , when and so often as they swarue from the true faith , and become heretikes indéede : which decrées and constitutions must perforce presuppose , that the Popes may be heretikes indéede : for otherwise , they should be frustrate and to none end at all : one popish Canon and decrée hath these expresse words , the Pope iudgeth all , and must be iudged of none , vnlesse he swarue from the faith , and be an heretike : another Canon hath these words , sheepe which are committed to their pastor , may neither rebuke him , nor in any wise accuse him , vulesse he depart and forsake the faith : these are the words of the Popes owne Canons . I doe alledge them truely , as I meane to do all the reste , whatsoeuer I shall speake of the Popes themselues , or of any popish writer , which I proteste vnto you once for all , as I will answere the saine at the dreadfull day of generall doome . Now we sée by these Canons , that the Popes may be heretikes , and in the case of heresie be censured , controlled , and condemned . Theoph. I heartily thanke you for this your Christian protestation , it fully perswadeth me that I may safely giue credit to all your allegations and asseuerations , whatsoeuer you say of our Popes , Popish writers , and their Faith and Doctrine : But can yee name any Pope indeede , that hath been an Heretique or an Apostate from the Faith ? our honorable and learned Cardinall , the Iesuite Bellarmine , statly denieth it . Remig. Pope Anastasius , Pope Honorius , Pope Iohn , and others haue beene Heretickes . Vignerius . Melchier , Canus , Alphonsus , and Adrianus ▪ all foure famous and learned Papists , and one of them ( Adrianils ) sometime Pope himselfe , doe affirme it and defend it for a constant and vndoubted truth . Nicholaus de Lyra , a famous Popish Frier , so learned a man , that Sir Thomas Moore called him a great Clearke , ( as he was indéede ) preueth euidently that the Church doth not consist in men , by reason of power or dignity either Ecclesiasticall or Secular : and this is the ground and foundation , vpon which hée buildeth his assertion : because ( saith Fryer Lyra ) many Princes and Popes , and others of the inferiour sort , are sound to haue swarued from the faith , and to haue béene flat Apostataes . Yea Iosephus Angles , a famous Popish Bishop , and religious Fryer , in that very booke which hée deliuered to the Pope himselfe , behold the force of truth ) confirmeth this mine assertion in these expressed words ; Papa hereticus aut Apostata , &c. The Pope being an Heretique or Apostata , may bee deposed by a generall Councel , and the reason is , because as none can be a Prelate of any religion , which is not professed in that religion ; so neither can he be Pope that holdeth not the faith o● the Church . Thus you see it ▪ cléere euen by Popish famous Doctors , & the Popes owne decrées ( such 〈…〉 none can be better ) that the Bishope of Rome may forsake the Christian faith , teach false Doctrine , and become flat Apostataes : Yea , that , de facto , the same hath béene verified , of sundry Popes in very déede . Theoph. Our Cardinall Bellarmine , and other learned Catholiques tell vs , that our Pope is a double person ; priuate and publique : that as he is a priuate person , hee may thinke , speake , write and hold erroneous opinions , false doctrine , and whatsoeuer else ; yet this notwithstanding , that the Pope as he is Pope , and a publique person can neuer erre in any matter of faith , nor iudicially define any thing against the truth . This our famous Dominican Fryer Dominicus de Soto , setteth downe in these expresse words ; quamuis Papa vt Papa &c. Albeit the Pope , as Pope , cannot erre , that is to say , cannot set downe any errour as an article of our faith , because the holy Ghost will not that permit ; neuerthelesse , as hee is a priuate person , he may erre euen in faith , as he may do in other sinnes . Remig. This indéede is the ground and foundationo ? all Popish faith and doctrine ; that the Pope may erre as a priuate man , but not as Pope and publique person : for this cause doth M. Watson tell vs , in the name of all the secular Priests , in their conflict against the traiterous Iesuits ; that as the prudent Gréeke appealed from Alexander furious , to Alexander sober ; and Bishop Crostrate from Pope Adrian priuate , to Pope Adrian publique , and as sumus pontifex in cathedra Petri ; so may the secular Priests , the Popes deuoted vassals , notwithstanding any decrée set downe by his Holinesse to the contrary , by wrong information giuen , appeale euen from the Pope ; as Clemens vnto his holines , as Peter for this cause doth , the Iesuite Parsons , or S. R. in his pretended answere to the downe ●all of Popery , proclaime it lustily to the work , that Bishops must not examine the doctrine which the Pope ●●●inereth i●ditially out of S. Peters chaire , as suprethe pastor of Gods Church ; but onely that , wherein he vttereth his owne priuate opinion . For this cause doe the Popes decrées roundly tell vs , that it is sacriledge to dispute of the Popes power . So then ; on the one side , the Pope may be deposed , if he speake , write , or hold hereticall opinions as a priuate man ; but on the other side , whatsoeuer the Pope shall define or decrée , as Pope and publike person , that we must receiue , reuerence , and constantly beléeue ; otherwise , we must be adiudged Heretiques and be burnt with fire and saggot at a stake . What a religion eat yee this ? the Pope may decrée things at his owne good pleasure either as a priuate man , or as a publique person ; the one way he cannot erre , as Papists doe and must beléeue ; but the otherway , hee both may erre and hath de facto erred in very déede : it therefore standeth with all reason , piety and good conscience , that the Papists shall examine his decrées , whether they procéede from the Pope as a publique person or as a priuate man , le●t they receiue errors for faith , falshood for truth , & poyson for wholesome medicine . Howbeit , they must beléeue all things resolutely ; they may doubt or dispute of nothing curiously , lest they be accused of sacriled●● or heresie . For , if the Pope when he spake or wrote sate in S. Peters chaire at Rome , ( an old rotten and worme-eaten thing , which the silly people adore , reuerence , and kisse , as my selfe sometimes haue done , and Saint Peter perhaps neuer saw or knew the same ) then the case is cléere , the Popes decrée is as sound as the holy Gospel , and procéedeth from the holy Ghost . Theoph. All this is very true , and we are taught to beleeue , that Saint Peter sate in that chaire indeede , and that it hath beene reuerently kept from Saint Peters death to this day , insomuch that they are likewise taught to bring girdles to touch the said chaire , which therefore are called Saint Peters girdles for the safe deliuerance of women which are with child , and doe vse them : neither did I euer heare to this day , that any Pope taught false Doctrine , or decreed any vntruth out of Saint Peters chaire . Remig. Whether Saint Peter euer sate in that chaire or not , it is not much materiall ; this one thing is certaine , that it is this day most superstitiously abused and that the real sitting in the material chaire , cannot preserue him that sitteth in it , from false doctrine or erroneous faith , whereof more at large hereafter , as your demandes or difficulties shal minister fit occasion ; that many Popes haue béene Heretiques and flat Apostataes , is already proued out of your owne best approued Doctors . Now will I likewise proue vnto you ( God willing ) euen by the expresse testimonies of most renowned Popish writers ; that sundry Popes haue taught and decréed false doctrine , and that as publique persons sitting in Saint Peters chaire , as they call it , and that done . I will answere to all your obiections against the same . M. Gerson , sometime Chauncellour of the famous Uniuersity of Paris , and a man of high estéeme in the Councel of Constance , writeth plainely , and auoucheth it for a constant knowne truth , that Pope Iohn the 22. of that name , taught publiquely , that the soules of the iust doe not sée God till the day of generall Doome , as also , that his false doctrine was publiquely condemned with the sound of trumpets , euen before Philip , then King of France . Yea Adrianus ( who was Bishop of Rome himselfe ) doth constantly auouch the same truth as testifieth Alphonsus a zealous and learned Popish Writer , in these expresse wordes ; Nouissime fertur de Iohanne 22. quod &c. Last of all , it is reported of Pope Iohn the 22. that hee publiquely taught , declared , and commaunded all to hold the same , that the soules of the iust before the day of iudgement generall , haue not the stole , which is the cleare and faciall vision of God : and he is reported to haue induced the vniuersity of Paris to this , that none should take degrée of Theology in the same , but those that did first sweare to defend this error , and to adhere to it for euer : Thus writeth Adrian , who was himselfe Pope or Bishop of Rome : And Alphonsus a man of good credite with the papists , after he had rekoned vp fiue heresies , setteth downe this for the ●i●th heresie : ( viz that the soules of the iust doe not see God till the day of doome ) ascribing the said heresie to the Armenians as to the authors thereof , and to the Greekes together with Pope Iohn , as the patrons and defenders of the same . So then it is cleare as the noone day , that the Bishops of Rome both may erre , and , de facto , haue erred , not onely as priuate men , but also as Popes and publike persons in their iudiciall sentences and decrées . Bellarmine your romish Iesuits and Cardinal , séeing the force of this testimony , and ma●king well that it doth ouerthrowe the highest point of their late start vp popery , doth bestir●e himselfe more then a little in defence of popish faith : he would gladly perswade his reader , that their Pope Iohn erred onely as a priuate man , and not as a Pope or Bishop of Rome : which is a subtile distinction , but falsly inuented to seduce the silly people therewith , lest they should forsake the Pope & his new religion : I proue it many wayes , first , because Pope Adrian himselfe saith , ( docuit hee taught ) Secondly , because he saith ( Publicé publiquely ) Thirdly , because he saith ( Mandauit , hée commanded all to hold it . ) Fourthly , because none could bee made Graduates in the Uniuersity , which held not this opinion . Fiftly , because euery Graduate was sworne to desend it , and to hold it for euer . So then , the Pope erred de facto , euen in his publike decrée of faith , and that euen by the consent of Adrian , who sometime was Pope himselfe ; yea , who for learning and knowledge , was one of the rarest Popes that euer were at Rome . What say you to this testimony , M. Theophilus ? doe ye not sée it euidently proued , euen by the testimony of approued Popish writers , that the Pope both may erre , and , de facto , hath erred ; and that not onely as a priuate man , but also as a publique person . Theoph. Your reasons are so strong , so pithy , and so plaine indeed , that I know not in the world how in truth to answere them , they make me to stagger in my old Romish faith , and to doubt of that , whereof I neuer doubted all my life before : for , we Catholiques haue euer holden it for an article of our Catholique faith , that the Pope as Pope and publique person cannot erre : and therefore that they are to bee censured for Heretiques , whosoeuer will not receiue and beleeue , as articles of the Christian faith , whatsoeuer the Pope defineth iudicially and publiquely , as sitting in Peters chaire . Remig. This lately coyned diabolicall distinction of the Popes double person , with the circumstances wherewith it is adorned , may fitly be tearmed a trick of Legierdemaine , wherewith many haue béene seduced a long time . For , when the Pope is charged and plainely conuicted to haue decréed false and erroneous doctrine to bée holden for articles of the faith ; then the Pope and his Iesuites , with their Iesuited broode , tell vs peremptorily , and as it were violently enforce vs to beléeue it , that such decrées procéede from the Popes Holinesse , as a priuate man , but not as a publique person . What a thing is this ? if the Pope decrée any thing , how absurd soeuer it be , and affirme the same to be his iudiciall sentence out of Peters chaire , then the same must be holden and be beléeued for an article of faith , and to be as true as the Gospell of Iesus Christ ; and he that will not so hold , and so beléeue , must be burnt for an Heretique : & for all this , no Scripture , no generall Councell , no holy Father , no learned Popish Writer , for y● space of 1400. yeares after Christs sacred incarnation , ( my life and saluation I gage for the tryall ) can be truely produced or alleaged for the confirmation and clearing of such Popish dotage , or rather of such diabolical heresie , and neuer-inough detested villany . Theoph. Your words doe penetrate , and touch the very bottome of my heart : but is it possible , that you can prooue and iustifie this your assertion ? if you can this performe , popery is confounded and striken dead . I therefore pray you for Christs sake , to proue this point so soundly and cleerely as I may be assured of the truth thereof . Remig. M. Doctor Gerson , Chauncellor of the vniuersity of Paris , a famous papist , and one of the principall deuines in the general Councell of Constance , deliuereth the truth to the view of the christian world , in these expresse words : concluditur ex hac radice duplex veritas : prima , quod determinatio solius Papae in his quae sunt fidei , non obligat vt precise est talis ad credendum ; alioquin staret in casu , quod quis obligaretur ad contradictoria , vel ad falsum contra fidem . Out of this roote , is concluded a double truth : first , y● the resolution or determination of the Pope alone in things belonging to faith ) as it is precis●ly such ( not confirmed by a generall councell , doth not tie or bind a man to beléeue it , for otherwise , the case might so fal out , that one should be bound either to beléeue contradictories , or else falshood against his faith . Againe , in another place , the same doctor and great learned man hath these expresse words : in causis fidei , non habetur in terra iudex infallibi is , vel qui non sit deuiabilis a fide de lege communi , praeter ipsam Ecclesiam vniuersalem , vel concilium generale eam sufficienter repraesentans : in causes of faith , there is no infallible iudge vpon earth , or which cannot swar●e from the faith , by the common course of Gods procéeding , sauing the vniuersall Church , or a generall councell . Many like testimonies this learned writer hath , which I let passe in regard of breuity , for that I déeme these twaine so cleare and so sufficient , as they will perswade euery indifferent reader : for first , we sée plainely by M. Gersons resolution , that no Christian is bound to beleue the decrée , definition , determination , or resolution of the Pope , as he is barely and precisely Pope or Bishop of Rome ▪ without y● assistance of a general councell . Secondly that the Pope may erre both priuately and publickely in the resolutions of faith , aswell as their Bishops and ministers of the Church . Thirdly , that there are but two infallible iudges vpon earth concerning matters of faith , that is to say , the whole Congregation of the faithfull , and a generall Councell lawfully and sufficiently representing the same : which resolution of this learned man , I admit with heart and voyce , as most Christian , sound , orthodoxe , and consonant to the holy scriptures , generall Councels , holy fathers , and best learned papists : M. doctor Fisher late Bishop of Rochester , and a popish canonized martyr , deliuereth his opiniō in these expresse words , nec Angustini , nec Hieronymi , necalterius cui●s●●bet auctoris doctrinae sic Ecclesia subscripsit , quin ipsilocis aliquotab ijs liceat dis●entire : nā in nōnullis ipsis locis se plane monstrarunt homines esse , atque nonnun quam aberrasse : the Church hath not se subscribed either to the doctrine of Austen or of Hierome , or of any other author or writer , but that she may sometime dissent from their opinions : for themselues haue plainely shewed themselues to be men and that they wanted not their errors . The Iesuite Bella●mine , so deare to the Pope for his writing , that he gaue him a Cardinals hat , wrote in this manner , sine dubio singuli Episcopi errare pos●unt , & aliquando errant , & inter se quandoque dissentiunt , vt nesciamus quinam eorum sequendus sit : without doubt all Bishops seuerally may erre , & doe sometime erre indéede , & doe also ▪ sometime so dissent one from another , that we cannot tell which of them we may safely follow . By the verdit of these famous & learned papists we sée M. Gersons doctrine plainely confirmed : for albeit they name not the Pope , yet must they confesse , perforce , that he is implyed in their words , or else that he is no Bishop at all , which is a thing not impossible by popish faith , though I affirme it not : Iacobus Almaynus , Gulielmus Ockamus , Thomas Waldensis , Iosephus Angles , with many others I might alledge , but I déeme these sufficient . Two things I will adde for your better satisfaction herein : the one , that this weightie point of doctrine , was most soundly handled , and throughly debated in the councell of Constance , where it was concluded , that a generall councell is aboue the Pope : that a generall counsell may depose the Pope : that the same councell , de facto , deposed Pope Iohn the 23. of that name , and that the Pope as a publike person may both be an heretike , and decrée hereticall doctrine : The other that the councell of Constance was holden and celebrated , in the yéere of our Lord God , 1415. and that M Gerson was a famous diuine of the same councell , both beholding with his eyes , and hearing with his eares , ( him selfe not being mute in the interim , ) thrée Popes Iohn the 23. Gregory the 12. , and Benedict the 13. ) deposed by the same councell , and the constant resolution of the councell against the Popes fasly challenged priuiledges : as namely , that the Pope as Pope and as he is a publike person , neither is nor can be an infallible iudge in matters of faith . Theoph. These things are wonderfull , which you seeme truely and sincerely to relate . I will thinke vpon them ▪ they enforce me to stagger , and to doubt of the Catholike saith . Remig. I deale sincerely with the papists , I protest vpon my saluation , for I hold it a great sinne to bely the diuell of hell : but God forbid that ye should doubt of the Catholike faith . Theoph. I remember well your distinction , of deformed and reformed Catholikes : I meane the deformed Catholike faith , which I now suspect to be the romish faith of our late Popes , I am not able to gainesay or withstand the truth , your reasons are so strong , your testimonies so plaine , your applications so euident , & your grounds so inuincible , that I cannot doe withall , but needes I must giue great credit to the same . Remig. You shall yet heare stranger matters of your Popes , hearken to them attentiuely . Pope Celestine the third of that name ▪ erred as Pope and publike person , in his iudiciall and publike decrée : this to be so , Alphonsus aboue named , that famous and religious papist , is a constant witnesse in these words , Celestinum Papa crasse circa matrimonium fidelium , quorum al●er labitur in haeresim , res est omnibus manifesta : neque hic Celestini error talis fuit , qui soli negligentiae imputari debuit , ita vt illum errasse dicamus velut priuatam personam , & non vt Papam , qui in qualibet re seria definienda consulere debet viros doctos , quoniam hui●smodi Celistini definitio habebatur in antiquis decretalibus , in capite , laudabilem , titulo de conuersione infidelium , quam ego ipse vidi , & legi : That Pope Celestine erred about matrimony of the faithfull , whereof the one is fallen into heresie , it is a thing so manifest , as all men know the same : neither was this error of Pope Celestine such , as may be imputed to sole negligence , so as we may thinke he erred as a priuate man , and not as Pope , who ought in euery serious decrée to aske councell of the learned , for that decrée of Celestine was in the old decretall epistles , in the chapter Laudabilem , which I my selfe haue séene and read , out of these word of Alphonsus , who was a man highly renowned among the papists , I obserue many worthy , and memorable points . First that Pope Celestine erred , and that , not as a priuate man , but euen as Pope and publike person . Secondly , that he erred in a very serious matter , euen in a matter of faith , to wit , that matrimony was so dissolued , by reason of heresie , that the faithfull man or woman might marry again , the hereticall party liuing : which thing saith Alphonsus , ( a great learned man , and a zealous papist , ) was manifest to euery man to be an heresie : and the popish late councell of Trent , hath defined so to be . Thirdly , that this decrée and definition of Pope Celestine , was in those daies enrolled in the Popes decretalls . Fourthly , that Alphonsus both saw and read the same decrée . Fiftly , that the said decrée cannot this day be found among the Popes decretall epistles : so then , the Popes vse to change , not onely their faith , but also their decrées . Theoph. I see well , that simple people are shamfully abused , and that the late Popes haue egregiously seduced them : for this is a case so cleare , as euery child may perceiue the same : that which the Pope and his Iesuits tell vs of his double person , is but atrick of Legerdemarie . For Alphonsus saith plainely and resolutely ( I see it cannot bee denied ) that Pope Celestine erred as Pope and publique person , and not as a priuate man. Remig. Let this testimony neuer bee forgotten : for , it ouerthroweth and beateth flat to the ground , the chiefest bulwarke , and strongest sort of all popish faith . It condenmeth the Pope and his doctrine , both affirmatiuely & negatiuely . Affirmatiuely , because it a●outheth the Pope to haue erred as Pope and publique person . Negatiuely , because it flatly denieth him to haue erred as a priuate person . But there is another point in this testimony , and that of great importance , which may not bée forgotten : I know not if you haue marked the same . Theoph. What is the point , I beseech you ? Remig. It is a kind of Iugling and Legierdemaine , where with the Popes and their denoted vassals , haue seduced the world a long time : they alter and change their Romish faith and doctrine at their owne good will and pleasure , and to hide and couer the nakednesse of their Popes publike errors , & hereticall decrées ; they cashéere and make away such former decrées of former Popes , as they cannot for shame approue , or by any honest meanes defend the same . For ( as Alphonsus here telleth vs ) this hereticall decrée and definition , which Celestine made , as Pope , and not as a priuate person , was in y● old decretall epistles , but this day cannot be found . Theoph. This point indeed I did not obserue , because Alphonsus saith he saw and read the same , but not that it is not this day to be found . Remig. Alphonsus saith he saw the decrée , and read it in the old decretals : and nameth the chapt eit● where it was : whereby he giueth vs to vnderstand , that in the latter decretals he could not finde the same . He further insinuateth to vs , that albeit we cannot finde the same iudiciall sentence in the decretals nowadaies : yet may we assure our selues of the truth thereof , for that himselfe both had séene and read the same in the old decretals : for if hee had found the same in the later printed decretals , he would not haue giuen the reader this cau●at , viz. that it was set downe in the old decretals , in the Chapter Laudabilem , and consequently , that the deniall thereof , would not serue to excuse the Pope . Nay , I will yet shew you a cléerer case , if any cléerer can be . Theoph. I know not doubtlesse , how a cleerer case can be found : yet for the better confirmation of the truth , I pray you withdraw not your paine . Remig. Saint Cyprian was an ancient Father , alearned Writer , and a glorious Martyr of our Lord Iesus : and for all that , he both beléeued , and publiquely declared that the Bishops of Rome might erre as well as other Bishops their brethren , not onely in their priuate opinions , but also in their definitiue sentences , & iudiciall decrées . For first , though Cornelius , then Bishop of Rome , together with the whole national Synode of all the Bishopps of Italy had made a slat decrée touching rebaptization ; and secondly , though Pope Stephanus had confirmed the same decrée , and stricktly commanded it to be obserued : and thirdly , though our Papists too much Iesuited and Italianized , doe of late daies obstinately affirme , ( as appeareth by the notes of the Rhemists vpon the new Testament ) that their Pope cannot erre , when hee defineth iudicially : yet this notwithstanding , S. Cyprian , both practically and iudicially giueth vs to vnderstand , that in his time the Bishop of Rome had no such priuiledge , as he this day arrogantly & Antichristianly taketh vpon him : for we ▪ Cyprian stoutly and resolutely withstood the decrée of ▪ Pope tephanus , who at that time was the Bishop of Rome : yea , he both sharply reproued him , and scornefully condemned his definitiue sentence and decrée . Theoph. I see not , how this proceeding of Saint Cyprian , can proue that the Pope may erre Iudicially in matters of faith : I beseech you take the paines to explicate the same more at large . Remig. Saint Cyprian was euer reputed a learned man , and an holy Bishop in his life time , as also , a most glorious Martyr being dead . Now , in regard of his great learning , he could not haue béene ignorant of the Popes rare priuiledge in noterring in matters of faith ; if either the holy Scriptures had taught it , or the learned Fathers of that age had beléeved or receiued it : and in regard of his piety and rare vertue , he would reuerently haue yéelded to such a singular prerogatiue , and haue giuen the glory to the sonne of God , the author thereof , if any such thing had béene done vnto him . Yea , if the Bishop of Rome had beene Christs Uicar generall , and so priuiledged , as our Iesuites and Iesuited crew beare the world in hand he is , that is to say that hée could not erre , in his iudiciall definitions of faith : then doubtlesse , S. Cyprian must needes haue béen a flat heretique , and so reputed and estéemed in the Church of God : For , if any Christian shall this day do , or affirme as S. Cyprian did , or publickly deny y● Popes sayd falsly pretéded prerogatiue of faith in any place , Country , territories or dominions , where Popery beareth the sway : then without all peraduenture , he must be burnt at a stake with fire and faggot for his paines . Theoph. God reward you for your trauaile : I see it now as cleerely as the noone day : For , S. Cyprian both knew the Scripture right well , and also what was the publike faith of the Church in his time : & so , if either the Scripture had taught it , or the Church had beleeued it ; hee would neuer haue withstood it , but reuerently haue yeelded thereunto . But sir , our Doctors haue much to say for themselues , would God it might please you to heare , and answere the same at large . Remig. I will both willingly heare them , and soundly ( by the power of God ) confute the same : For , I know right well , before I heare them from your mouth , what possibly they are able to say in their owne defence . CHAP. 3. Of sundry important Obiections , which seeme to proue the Popes prerogatiue of faith . Obiection first . Theophilus . CHrist prayed for Peter , that his faith should neuer faile ; ergo , the Bishop of Romes faith cannot faile nor the Pope erre in his iudiciall decrees : for , seeing Christ constituted a Church , which should continue to the worlds end ; he prayed not onely for S. Peters person , but also for all that should succeede him in his Chaire at Rome . Remig. I answere ; first , that many learned Writers doubt greatly , not onely of his supposed Chaire , but euen of his being there . Howbeit , because all the holy Fathers , and learned Writers of the auncient Church , doe with vniforme assent , affirme Saint Peter to haue béene Bishop of Rome , I willingly admit the same as a receiued truth . Secondly , that albeit Christ prayed for S. Peters faith , as also appointed his Church to continue to the worlds end : yet doth it not follow thereupon , that what priuiledge soeuer he obtained by prayer for S. Peter , the same must redound to all those that lineally succéed in his place or chaire : for , no Scripture , no Councell , no Father doth so write , or so expound Christs prayer . Thirdly , that Christ prayed for the faith of the whole Church , or for Peters faith , as he did represent the whole church , which is all one in effect : This I proue by sundry meanes . First , because Christ himselfe doth so expound himselfe in these words ; I pray not for the world , but for them which thou hast giuen mee , for they are thine . I pray not for these alone , but for them also , which shall beléeue in me through their word . Christ prayed aswell for the rest of his Apostles as hée did for Peter ; and a well for all the elect , as for his Apostles : and consequently , séeing Christ directed not his words to Peter as to one priuate man , but as to one representing y● whole Church ; it followeth of necessity , y● whatsoeuer Christ did , or said , concerning Peters faith , the same , perforce , must be vnderstood of the faith of y● whole Church , which faith shall neuer faile indeede Secondly , because Iohannes Gersonus , a famous Popish writer affirmeth constantly , as we haue seene already , that there is no infallible Iudge vpon earth in matters of faith , sauing the vniuersall Church , or a generall Councell lawfully assembled , and sufficiently representing the same , which doctrine , though procéeding from a Popish penne , I willingly embrace and reuerence as an vndoubted truth . Thirdly , because S. Austen applieth Christs prayer generally & indifferently to all the whole Church . Quid ambigitur ? &c what doubt is there ? did hée pray for Peter , and did he not also pray for ●ames & Iohn , to say nothing of the rest ? it is cléere that in Peter all the rest are meant ▪ because he saith in another place , I pray for these O Father , which thou hast giuen me , and desire that they may be with me , where my selfe am . Lo , S. Austen vnderstandeth Christs prayer for Peter , of the whole Congregation of the faithfull : and hée proueth it by Christes owne explication , in an other place of the Holy Gospell . Fourthly , because Origen , a very learned and auncient Father , affirmeth in a large discourse vpon Saint Matthew , that all things spoken of Peter , touching the Church and the keies , are to be vnderstood of all the rest : and the collection or illation of Origen , is euident , euen by naturall reason : for , as that learned father profoundly disputeth , if Christ prayed not aswell for the rest as he did for Peter , of small credite were a great part of the holy scriptures : a reason doubtlesse , insoluble for all Iesuites and Iesuited popelings in the world : for , if they could faile in their faith , they could also faile in their writing , and yet that they could not so faile , was by vertue of Christs prayer . Fiftly because Panormitanus the Popes skilfull Canonist , his religious Abbot , his renowned Arche-bishop , and his Lordly Cardinall ( for he was all foure ) telleth vs plainely and peremptorily , that Christs prayer was for the whole congregation of the faithfull : these are his expresse words ; & pro hac tantum Chrstus in Euangelio ●ruit ad patrem ; ego rogaui pro te : and for this ( he speaketh of the whole faithfull congregation ▪ ) Christ onely prayed to his Father in the Gospell , ( when he said ) I haue prayed for thée ( Peter ) that thy faith faile not . Behold and marke well , and then yéeld your indifferent censure , when Christ ( saith the famous papist Panormitanus ) prayed that Peters faith should not faile , he prayed for the faith of the vniuersall Church , whose faith shall neuer faile indéede : & the same Panormitanus proueth his opinion directly and strongly by many textes of the Popes Canon●aw . Sixtly because al the doctors & learned diuines of the most famous vniuersity of ( Paris marke well for this Argum●t ( striketh dead ; ) doe expoūd Christs words in S. Luke ▪ euen as I haue proued out of Cardinall Panormitanus , that is to say that Christ prayed for the faith of the whole Church , or for Peters faith as he represented y● whole Church which is all one in effect : this , this , is such a deadly wound to the Pope & to all his popelings , as all medicines in the world are neuer able to cure the same : this is it , which M. Gerson Chauncellour of the same vniuersity , and a famous disp●ter in the councell of Constance , published to the world in a printed booke , ( whose words we haue heard already ) that the Bishop of Rome may erre in matters of faith and doctrine , aswell as other Bishops their brethren : and that there is no infallible iudge vpon the earth in matters of faith , saue onely the congregation of the faithfull , and a general councel sufficiently representing the same . Here I would haue you ; M. Theophilus , to obserue seriously these points with mée , which if you shall doe , all partiality set a part , you cannot but abhorre and detest late start-vp popery : these are the obseruations . First , that all which the Pope and his Iesuites can possible say on the Popes behalfe , why he cannot erre iudicially in matters of faith , is euen this and nothing else , that Christ prayed for S. Peters faith and his successors . Secondly , that not one doctor , two ▪ or thrée , but Austen , Origen , Panormitane , together with all the great learned diuines of the vniuersity of Paris , doe with ▪ vniforme consent and swéete harmony , expound Christs prayer to be made for the whole congregation of the faithfull . Thirdly , that all the learned doctors of the said vniuersity are papists , and consequently , that they say or write nothing against the Pope , but what the zeale of truth vrgeth them vnto . Fourthly , that all the learned diuines of Paris , ( an vniuersity for learning and knowledge renowned throughout the Christian world , ) doe this day as euer in former times , hold constantly , and both Christianly and zealously desend the same , viz : That the Bishops of Rome both may erre , and , de facto , haue erred in matters of faith , and that Christs prayer was onely for the whole Congregation of the faithfull . Fiftly , that the said vniuersity was euer so farre from beléeuing this heresie that the Bishop of Rome cannot erre iudicially in matters of faith , as also from interpreting Christs prayer for any prerogatiue of his faith , or of his successors , that it publikely condemned Pope Iohns publike error in faith , and that with the sound of the Trumpets , yea with the Kinges royall assent , and in his presence : their expresse words , and the Popes heresie we haue heard at large already . The first Reply . Theoph. Cardinall Bellarmine ( who is as it were the Popes owne mouth , ) telleth vs constantly , that Christ in his prayer obteyned two priuiledges for Peter : the one , that his faith should never faile , the other , that neither Peter , nor any in Peters seate , should euer teach false doctrine : and consequently he inferreth , that albeit the Bishops of Rome may erre as priuatemen , yet neuer iudicially in matters of faith . Remig. I answere first , y● Bellarmine bringeth nothing for his opinion , but his own bare imagination , and therefore that it is lawfull for vs barely to deny it , till he with reason be able to proue it , which forsooth will be , ad Calendas graecas . Secondly , that the same Bellarmine telleth vs else-where , that the word of God is the rule of faith : and that the written word , because it is the rule , hath this prerogatiue , that whatsoeuer is contained in it , is of necessity true , and must be beléeued : and whatsoeuer is repugnant to it , is of necessity false , and must bee reiected : wherein he vnawares confuteth himselfe , and iustifieth mine assertion : for the Scripture telleth vs euery where , that all Bishops e●re , and both deceiue others and are deceiued thēselues . The Prophet Dauid sheweth it plainely when he affirmeth all men to bee lyars . The Prophet ●eremy cryeth aloud , that the Gentiles in the end of the world , shall come and fréely confesse that their forefathers inherited lyes and vanity . Saint Paul confirmeth the same when he telleth vs , that onely God is true , and euery man a lyar . The Prophet Malachie reproueth th● Priests of the law , for their manifold errors : Yée are gone ( saith he ) out of the way , ye haue caused many to fall by the law , yée haue broken the couenant of Leui. The Priest and the Prophet ( sayth Esay ) haue erred by strong drink : they are swallowed vp with wine : they haue gone astray through strong drinke : they faile in vision : they stumble in iudgement . They shal séeke a vision of the Prophet ( saith Ezechiel ) but the law shall perish from the Priest , and counsell from the Elders . The heads ( saith Micach ) iudge for rewards , and the Priests teach for hire , and the Prophets prophesie for money . Her Prophets ( saith Sopho●e ) are light and wicked persons : her Priests haue polluted the Sanctuary : they haue wrested the law . What ? erred not Terrullian , Montanizing ? Cyprian , Rebaptizing ? Origen , Corporizing ? Nazianzen , Angelizing ? Eusebius , Arrianizing ? Lactantius , Millenizing ? Saith not Iohn Fisher , that famous Popish Bishop , that we may iustly dissent from the Iudgement of Austen , Hierome , & whosoeuer else ? and y● because they ●aue shewed themselues to bée men , and not to haue wanted their errours ? Doth not Cardinal Bellarmine fréely grant , that all Bishops doe so dissent sometime one from another , that we cannot tell which of them we may safely follow ? All these assertions are so true , as no one of them can be gainesayd : and consequently , if the Popes of Rome be men and not women , as Pope Iohn ; if they bée Bishops and not Pilates , they both may erre , and , de facto , haue erred , as we haue séene already . And Cardinall Bellarmine must either bring some scripture , diuine and Canonicall , which assureth vs that the Popes faith cannot faile , or else to giue vs leaue ( howsoeuer he deal● with his Iesuited vassals ) to beléeue him and his Pope at leysure . But indéed , no Scripture , no Councell , no ancient Father , no approued History of the Church , can bée produced by any one , or al Papists in the world , that saith the Bishop of Romes faith cannot faile , or that the faith of him , who succeedeth in the seate of Peter , can neuer faile . The second reply . Theoph. You haue sayd very much against the infallibility of the Popes faith : howbeit , the learned Papists think they haue a reply , which cannot easily be answered . They hold , that Saint Cyprian affirmeth resolutely , that false faith can haue no accesse to Saint Peters chaire , which if it be so , then cannot I perceiue how the Popes can erre in matters of faith : for you freely admit , that the Bishops of Rome are Saint Peters successors there , & sit in his seate or chaire : and I like your dispute a great deale the better , because I see and finde you willing to discouer euery thing truly , & to conceale nothing that seemeth to make for their profession and religion . But I greatly desire a sound answere to this great and mightie reply : for our learned Diuines doe thinke it vnanswerable , and altogether insoluble . Remig. I answere : first , that the Iesuite S. R. or Robert Parsons ( if you will ) citeth this reason or testimony out of S. Cyprian ; but corruptly and falsly , as in the reply to his pretensed answere to the downe-fall of Popery , it doth and may appeare . Secondly , that it is a very childish reply , & vnworthy to be aleaged of any learned writer : for these are S. Cyprians words : ad quos perfidia acces●●m habere non potest : They know not them to bée Romans to whom falshood or deceiptfull dealing can haue no accesse : or with whom falshood and crafty dealing can finde no place ( or comfort . ) Now , this answere is as much to the purpose , for prouing that the Popes faith cannot faile , as if I should demand of M : Fryer Parsons , how farre it is to London : and it should please his grauity to answere a poke full of plums . For first , S. Cyprian speaketh of the Romans indefinite , whom he commendeth to bée so honest , so sincere , and so vpright in all their procéedings , that the false reports , and vniust allegations of disobedient persons , can find no help or comfort in their Tribunals or Consistorie-courts . Now , Robert parsons , ( to make a shew of the Popes falsly pretended prerogatiue in , matters of faith ) doth first of all corruptly set downe these words ( to S. Peters chaire ) for these words in the text ( ad q●os Romanos , to which Romans . ) then he falsly setteth downe ( false faith ) for the word ( perfidia ) in S. Cyprian , which there signifieth not false faith , but ●●lshood and deceiptfull dealing : as if S. Cyprian had sayd ▪ it s●illeth not , for the Romans are so wise , so sincere , and so vpright in all their procéedings , that no false reports , or deceitfull allegations , can haue any place , or finde any refuge in their Courts . Now I pray you heartily , to censure the case and cause indifferently : was this honest dealing of your Iesuite to change the word falshood ) into false faith ? as if forsooth , Saint Cyprian had meant , that the Popes faith cannot faile : when indéede S. Cyprian ( as we haue heard ) doth vtterly renounce that hereticall and damnable position ; viz. that the Popes faith cannot faile : For , if S. Cyprian had beléeued that position , and withall had gainesaid and withstood the Popes definitiue and iudiciall sentence , hee should both in the iudgement of other holy Fathers , and in his owne conscience haue bin a flat Hereticke . But neuer did any holy Father , or y● Church of God so repute him . Pope Stephanus . with a Councel of al the Bishops and Priests of Italy , defined flatly against rebaptization : which decrée of Councel with the Popes assent thereto , Saint Cyprian scorned and contemned , stil defending his former opinion constantly . Yea , he was so farre from acknewledging y● prerogatiue in Popes , which they of latter dayes challenge to themselues , that he would not take Pope Stephanus for his superior , or to haue any iurisdiction ouer him , but termed him proud , ignorant , blinde , and naughty , as is euident to such as read his Epistle to Pompeius . Out of which procéedings , I note these memorable points First , that he knew what the Pope and his Councel had decreed . Secondly , that he iudged a Romish Councell to be of no greater force then a Councell African . Thirdly , that he iudged the councell of Italy to bee of no greater force for the Popes consent , then was the councell of Astricke , for his owne consent . Fourthly , that prouinciall Councels are of no greater authority for the Popes confirmation , then for the confirmation of another Bishop . The third Reply . Theoph. Cardinall Bellarmine telleth vs that the Pope defined the controuersie indeede : but not as a matter of faith : and consequently , Saint Cyprian could not bee an Heretique , albeit hee withstood the decree of the Pope . Remig. What a Religion is Popery ? what a man is Cardinall Bellarmine ? shall we make him another Pope ? shall we admit euery thing hee saith , for and as , Christs holy Gospell ? I knew the man right well before he was Cardinall , and I thinke no Angell hath spoken to him since . I fit so be , let him worke myracles for confirmation thereof . The Pope vtterly disliking Saint Cyprians opinion , and déeming it repugnant to Christs Gospell , did for that end conuocate all the cleargie men of Italy , that the controuersie might be derided , and the truth thereof made manifest to the world . And yet , saith Bellarmine , he defined it not as a matter of faith . The controuersie was about rebaptization , and consequently , either flatly with the Gospell , or flatly against the same . If it were flatly with the Gospell , then erred the Pope and his Councell egregiously : if it were flatly against y● Gospell , and the Pope so decréed it , then decréed he against it , as against a matter of faith , or else opinions and doctrines against the Gospell , are not against the Catholike faith : but the truth of the matter is this , viz. that if the Papists graunt , ( as of necessity they must graunt ) S. Cyprian to haue withstood and contemned the Popes iudicial and definitiue sentence , & for all that , euer to haue béene reputed an holy ▪ man and learned Father : it will fallow of necessity , that the Pope hath no such authority and prerogatiue as he a long time falsly hath vsurped , and still tyrannically pretendeth to haue . And therefore the Iesuited Cardinall ▪ déemed it the best course for the continuance of his Popes falsly pretended prerogatines , to tell vs , that though the Pope defined the controuersie , yet did he not define it as a matter of faith , and so Saint Cyprian could he no hereticke , because hee withstood no decrée of faith , as if forsooth it rested in the Popes power to make matters of faith and herefie at his good will and pleasure . Theoph. This your answer doth yeeld great solace to to my heart : for our great masters beare vs in hand , that whatsoeuer the Pope decreeth , the same must we receiue and beleeue as an vndoubted truth , and their dayly practise is correspondent thereto : for whosoeuer shall denie or gainesay the Popes decree , ( who is with vs as another God ) shall vndoubtedly be burnt as a conuicted Heretike . Bellarmines answere , seemeth indeed to bee nothing else but a plaine tricke of Legerdemaine : as is his like conceite and doctrine , concerning his Popes double person . But good sir , doth not the Euangelist tell vs , that Christ built his church vpon Saint Peter ? and that hell gates shall neuer preuaile against it : the words seeme very plaine . Thou art Peter , and vpon this rocke will I build my church , and Hell gates shall not preuaile against it . Obiection second . Theoph. Christ built his Church vpon Peter , ergo his faith cānot faile : the antecedēt is proued by Christs own words following . For if his faith could faile , then should hel gates indeede preuaile against him . Remig. I answere , that Christ did not build his Church vpon Peter , I proue it . First because the words are changed , both in the Greeke , which is the fountaine ana originall and also in the romish approued Latin translation , which onely must be beleeued and followed , by the decree of their Tridentine Councell : for the alteration of the word , insinuateth significantly an alteration in the sense . If Christ had meant to build his Church vpon Peter , he would haue said , ( vpon this Peter ) and not ( vpon this Rocke : ) And it is not to the purpose to say , that Christ spake in the Hebrew of Sy●●ack tongue : for we haue the originall in Gréek from S. Iohn , who being full of the holy Ghost would neuer , haue changed the words , but to insinuate & expresse a different sense and meaning if as : Christ had said ▪ thou art a Rocke by name , and my selfe a Rocke by nature and indéede so strong , so permanent , & so inuincible , that hell gates cannot preuaile against it : Upon this Rocke therefore of thy consession , will I build my Church : against the faith of which Church , neither hell nor the Diuell shall euer preuaile . Secondly , because the Apostle affrmeth constantly , that no man can lay any other foundation then that which is laid , which is Iesus Christ : Christ therefore speaking in S Mathew of the Rock of the Church , doth by the word ( Rocke ) annotate himselfe , not S Peter : for we see that S Paul doth so expound Christs words , whose interpretation may fitly be gathered out of the circumstances of the text in S Mathew , either is it to the purpose , to cite out of the Re●elation of S. Iohn , that the wall of the City which he behold , had twelue foundations , and in them the names of the twelue Apostles of the Lambe , for the Apostles were but partiall and mutable foundations : but Christ is the totall and permanent foundation of the Church neither can any City ▪ wall , or other thing , haue mo● total foundatios then one : neither yet can the twelue foundations , make for Peters prerogatiue ●●y thing at all : for seeing the foundations were ▪ 〈◊〉 in number precisely assigned by the vision to the twelue Apostles , without distinction o● limitation : it followeth by● necessary 〈…〉 the 〈◊〉 . 〈…〉 for this ●e●pe●● ▪ doe the holy fathers vsually write , that what 〈…〉 Christ spake or did to Peter concerning the Church , he spake it 〈…〉 〈…〉 th● 〈…〉 in the name of the ●ho● 〈…〉 con●●●-●●th my exposition● T●●s Petrus &c. thou art Peter ( ●uch Christ ) and vpon this Rocke which thou hast confessed , vpon this Rocke which thou hast acknowledged , saying , thou art Christ the Sonne of the liuing God , will I ●uil● 〈…〉 Church● that is , vpon my selfe the Sonne of the liuing God , will I build my Church , vpon my selfe will I build thée , not my selfe vpon thée . Fourthly , because S. Chrysostome iumpeth with S. Austens interpretation , in these words , columnae quidem &c the Apostles are the pillers , because by their vertue they are the strength of the Church : they are the foundation , because the Church is built vpon their confession , when the Lord saith , thou art Peter , and vpon this Rocke will I build my Church . Fiftly , because S. Hylary is consonant to the other holy fathers : these are his words , this faith is the foundation of the Church : by this faith hell gates shal not preuaile against it : this faith hath the Keyes of Heauen . Sixtly , because the receaued Popish glosse vpon this text , vnderstandeth by the Rocke , Peters faith , & the confession which he made . Seuenthly , because Panormitan and Syluester two very famous 〈…〉 are both of the same opinion . Out of this discourse , I obserue these points for your better instruction . First that Christ is the Rocke vpon which Peter is built : that Christ is the Rocke , vpon which the Church is built : that the Sonne of God is the Rocke vpon which the Church is built . Secondly , that the Apostles are called the foundation , because ( as testifieth S. Chrysostome ) the Church is built in their confession , when the Lord saith , thou art Peter , and vpon this Rocke will I build my Church . Thirdly that the confession pronounced for ●●der sake by the mouth of one ( euen Peter by name ) was the ioynt confession of them all ( the Church is built in their confession , ) marke well these words , of the ●●lded mouthed doctor S. Chrysostome , they are words of great importance , they proue the controuersie so sufficiently , as no euasion can take place , they proue effectually , that whatsoeuer was said to Peter touching the Church , was meant of the whole Congregation of the faithfull , for as Peter spake and answered in the name of the whole Church , so Christs demaunds , answeres , and promises , were made and intended for the whole Church : for as S. Chrysostome truely saith , Peters confession was made in the name of all the Apostles , and consequently in the name of the whole Church , when he pronounced Christ the Sonne of the liuing God : and euen so Christs answere and promise was made to Peter ( as appeareth by the circumstances of the text ) in the name of the whole Church , and I may not forget to adde hereunto , the ioynt-testimonis of all the learned diuines of Paris who ( as we haue heard already ) vnderstād al things spoken to Peter in Church matters , to be meant of the whole Church : as when he prayed that Peters faith should not faile , he then prayed for the infallibility and perpetuity of the faith of the whole Church : all both the holy and auncient fathers and , also best approued popish writers ( our Iesuites and Iesuited popelings only excepted , ) doe willingly subscribe hereunto . Obiection 3. Theoph. Christ commanded Peter , and onely Peter , and that three seuerall times to feede his sheepe . Ergo Peter , & onely Peter had the ordinary charge and gouernement of Christs sheepe , and consequently , all Priests , all Bishops , all Arch-bishops , all Patriarkes , receiue their authority and iurisdiction from the Pope , as from Saint Peters successour . Remig. I answere that all Christs shéepe , were committed to all the Apostles , ioyntly and seuerally , aswell to Paul & the rest , as to Peter : yea , rather to Paul , though he were none of the twelue , then to Peter : for hee saith of himselfe that the Gospel of the vncircumcision was committed to him , euen as was the Gospell of Circumcision vnto Peter : and consequently , since all Christians now were Gentiles then : y● Pope if he wil néedes haue a superiority ouer all his brethren y● Bishops , must perforce reduce his succession from S. Paul : & for this policy perhaps it is , that the Pope euer ioyneth Saint Paul and Saint Peter together , whether it be in giuing pardons , or other faculties whatsoeuer . I proue the proposition . First , because Christ committed the charge of all Nations , to all his Apostles alike , without any priuiledge or restriction , more or lesse , to one rather then to another . Secondly , because Christ for edification sake , required a thrée sold confession of Peter , in regard of his thréefold negation , left nouises and weaklings should haue béene scandalized , vnderstanding that such a notorious sinner without publike confession of his faith , should haue any iurisdiction ouer them : but not to giue any speciall prerogatiue to Peter thereby ; The reason hereof is euident , because our Sauiour had before this charge of féeding , giuen a very large commission to all his Apostles of féeding all Nations : and therefore he can now meane and intend no other thing , but onely to moue Peter to walke warily , to be mindfull of his infirmities , & to be carefull of his charge . Thirdly , because Saint Austen , that mighty pillar of Christs Church , confirmeth & defendeth this my present doctrine . These are his expresse words : Ecclesiae Catholicae personam sust●●● Petrus & cum ei dicitur , ad omnes dicitur , a●●● me ? pas●●●ues meat : Peter represented the person of y● Church Catholike & when it is said to him it is said to all , louest thou me ? féed my shéep . Fourthly , because S. Cyprian decideth this controuersie 〈◊〉 plainly , as cānot but satisfie 〈…〉 indifferent reader● these are his expresse words ; loquitur Dominus ad Petrū , ego dico tibi ; quia tu es Petrus , &c. & Paulo post hoc erāt vtique & caeteri Apostoli quod fuit Petrus , pari consortio prediti & honoris & potestatis , sed exord●● abo●ni●ate proficiscitur , vt Ecclesia vna monstretur : Our Lord speaketh vnto Peter . I say vnto thée that thou art Peter , and vpon this Rocke will I build my Church &c. the same were the rest of the Apostles doubtlesse , that Peter was , indued with equall fellowshippe , both of honour and of power , but the beginning procéedeth from vnity , that the Church may be shewed to be one . And the same holy Father confirmeth this his doctrine in another place in these memorable words ; Episcopatus vnus est , 〈…〉 a singulis in solidum pars tenetur , there is but one Bishoprick● , a part whereof euery Bishop possesseth and enioyeth wholly . S. Austen confirmeth S. Cyprians sentence and iudgement , in these words : Claues non vnus homo Petrus , sed vnitas accepit Ecclesiae ; not one onely ma● Peter , receiued the Keies , but the vnity of the Church . Fiftly , because two famous popish writers are iump of tho same opinion , & constantly desend y● same doctrine : Couar●vi●s a profound Canonist , & a popish Archbishop of great estéeme in y● romish Church hath these expresse words ; & enim iuxta Catholicorum virorū auctoritates , & communem omnium traditionem , Apostoli parem ab ipso Domino Iesu eum Petro potestatem ordinis & iuridictionis acceperunt , ita quidem , vt quilibet Apostolorum aequalem cum Petro habuerit potestatem ab ipso Deo , intotum orbem , & in omnes actus quos Petrus agere poterat : for according to the authorities of Catholike writers , and the common tradition of all , the Apostles receiued from our Lord Iesus Christ himselfe , equall power with Peter , both of order and of iuridiction ; in somuch , doubtlesse , as euery Apostle had equall power with Peter from God himselfe , and that both ouer the whole world , and to all actions that Peter could doe . Iosephus Angles a famous Fryer and a very learned popish Bishop , in that selfe same booke which he dedicated to the Pope , hath by the force of Gods spirit testified the same truth , both against the Pope & against himself : these are his owne words : si comparemus B. Petri & aliorum Apostolorum potestatem ad gubernationem omniumcredentium , tantam alij Apostoli habuerunt potestatam , quantam B. Petrus habuit ; ita quod poterant quemlibet Christianum totius orbis , sicut modo Rom. Pont. excommunicare , & in qualibet Ecclesia Episcopos & Sacerdotes creare : ratio est , quia omnis potestas B. Petro promissa & tradita fuit , & caeteris Apostolis collata , & hoc sine personarum , loci , vel fori discrimine : if we compare the power of S. Peter and of the others Apostles , to the gouernment of all the faithfull , other Apostles haue euen asmuch power as S Peter had ; so that they could then excommunicate euery Christian in the whole world , and in euery Church make Bishops and Priests : the reason is , because all power promised and giuen to S. Peter , was also giuen to the rest of the Apostles , and that without difference , of persons , place , or consistory . Thus we haue a full and resolute iudgement , both for answere to the obiection , and for the supposed prerogatiues and priuiledges of S. Peter : which resolution is not onely deduced out of the holy scripture , but plainely contested also by the vniforme consent of the holy fathers , S. ●vprian and S. Austen , and in like maner of the famous and learned papists , Couarruvias and ●osephus Angles , for they teach vs many sound points in diuinity ; First , that all the Apostles had as great authority , and as full and large euery way , as Saint Peter had . Secondly , that euery Apostle , aswell as Peter , could make and constitute Bishops and Priests euery where , throughout the Christian world . Thirdly , that what act soeuer S. Peter could doe , euery Apostle had power and authority to do the same . Fourthly , that the iurisdiction of euery Apostle , was as great and as large euery way , as Saint Peters was . And this , ( saith Couarruvias ) is the common receiued doctrine of all Catholike writers : this is a poynt of Catholike doctrine so important and so memorable , as it well deserueth to be written in golden letters . Fiftly , that Christs spéeches vnto Peter in the singular number , did not argue any superiority of iurisdiction , but only signifie the vnity of the Church . Sixtly , that the authority and iurisdiction of euery Apostle was equal to Peters , and that without all difference of persons , place or consistory . This is another point of great consequence : for séeing , first , all and euery of the Apostles , had equal iurisdiction : séeing secondly , that their iurisdiction was not limited , but ouer the whole world : seeing thirdly , that the whole iurisdiction of euery Apostle , ended and expired with his death : and séeing fourthly , that S. Iohn liued after all the Apostles : it followeth of necessity , that the Ecclesiasticall iurisdiction of the whole world , remained in Saint Iohn , after the death of Peter , and the other Apostles . So then , if the Bishop of Rome , will haue indéede any such prerogatiue , as he falsly pretendeth to haue , he must bring and shew vs his comission from S. Iohn , and not from S. Peter : for S Iohn being the suruiuer , had all iurisdiction in himselfe . And if the late Bishops of Rome , can shew vs such a commission from Saint Iohn , viz that Saint Iohn translated and committed his whole power , authority and iurisdiction to the Bishop of Rome , and his successors , I for my part , will willingly yeeld obedience to the same , not otherwise . For I require the Popes charter from S. Iohn . Theoph. This is wonderfull which you say : and yet you proue the same so pithily , as I must , perforce , yeelde thereunto . I will proceed , by your fauour , to be resolued in other doubts . Remig. Leaue nothing vnsayd , which possibly can bée deuised , or aduised for the supposed prerogatiues of your Pope . Obiection fourth . Theoph. The Apostle telleth vs that the Church cannot erre , and he proues it , because it is the pillar and ground of truth . Remig. It is true , that the Apostle saith so : and my selfe do willingly admit the doctrine , and humbly reuerence the same . I most willingly grant y● Christs church cannot erre in matters of faith , we differ not in the nature of the thing ( markewel my words ) but in the modification and application of the thing : that is to say , wèe all grant on all sides , that the Church cannot erre ; but we differ in the application of our grant , what Church it is that cannot erre : what Church meane you M. Theophilus ? Theoph. I meane , as all Catholikes doe , of the Pope and Church of Rome . Remig. I told you that you are but bastards and deformed Catholikes , as your owne Capuchéenes do tell your deformed Franciscans : and withall I tell you that the Pope or Church of Rome ( which is with Papists , all one ) hath , de facto , erred egregiously as is already proued : Nay , it is vnpossible that the Apostle should meane of your Pope or Church of Rome . I proue it many wayes . First because the famous Popish Doctor , Iohannes Gersonus , hath fréely told vs , ( as we haue heard already related ) the the Bishop of Rome hath , de facto , erred , not onely in his priuate opinion but also in his publike and iudiciall definitions : & that therefore we haue no infallible Iudge vpon earth sauing these two . viz. the whole Congregation of the faithfull , and a generall Councell sufficiently representing the same : where I wish you to marke attentiuely , the word ( Sufficiently ) because it is very emphatical , ● of great moment . Secondly , because the Popish Doctor Syluester Pryeras , a diuine so learned , that he is by them so named ( Absolutus Theologus ) confirmeth the opinion and doctrine of M. Gerson , the famous Chauncelor of Paris , in these expresse words ; Et sic intellige glossam dicentem , quod Ecclesia quae errare non potest , dicitur non papa , sed congregatio fidelium , quae scilicet tenet fidem quam Petrus eum alijs populis docuit : And thus must the glosse be vnderstood , which saith , that y● Church which cannot erre is not the Pope , but the congregation of the faithfull ; that is , such as hold firmely that faith , which Peter with other ( godly ) people taught . Thirdly , because Panormitanus , that famous Popish Canonist , Abbot , Arch-bishop , & Cardinall , for he was all foure , and therefore of high estéeme with the Pope and Church of Rome , iumpeth with the other learned Papists , Gerson and Syluester , and stoutly cōfirmeth their doctrine : These are his expresse words : Nam in concernentibus sidem , &c. For concerning matters of faith , euen the iudgemēt of one that is a méere lay-man ought to be preferred before the sentence of the Pope : if that lay-man could bring Better reasons out of the old and newe Testament , then did the Pope . And it skilleth not , if one say , that a Councell cannot erre , because Christ prayed for his Church , that it should not faile : for I say , that although a generall Councell represent the whole vniuersall Church : yet in truth , there is not truly the vniuersall Church , but representatiuely : For the vniuersall Church ( which is it that cannot erre ) consisteth of the collection of all the faithful : Whereupon all the faithful in the world , make this Church vniuersal , whereof Christ is the head . The Pope is the Uicar of Christ , but not truly the head of y● Church , as noteth the glosse vpon the Clementines , which glosse saith notably , that when the Pope is dead , the Church wanteth not an head , and this is that Church which cannot erre : whereupon it is possible , that the true faith of Christ might remaine in one alone , and so it may be truely said , that the faith faileth not in the Church . Christ before his passion prayed for Peter , that his faith should not faile : therefore the Church is not said to faile , neither to erre so long as the true faith abideth in one onely : thus writeth this famous and learned papist . Fourthly , because the Popes owne deare glosse vpon his owne d●●rées , doth most liuely describe that Church which cannot erre , to be the Congregation of the faithfull : for thus is it there written in expresse termes ; Quaero de qua Ecclesia intelligas , quod hic dicitur , quod non possit errare ? si de ipso Papa , certum est quod Papa errare potest : respondeo , ipsa congregatio fidelium hic dicitur Ecclesia , & talis Ecclesia non potest non esse : I aske thee ( O Pope Leuci , ) of what Church thou vnderstandest that , which thou tellest vs in this place ? to wit , that the Church cannot erre ? for , if thou vnderstand it of the Pope himselfe , it is certaine that the Pope may erre : I therefore answere , that the Church is here taken for the congregation of the faithfull , and such a Church can neuer erre ( indéede . ) Fiftly , because the popish ceremoniall practise in the holy wéeke , while they put out all the candles saue one , doth liuely expresse vnto vs , that the Church of Rome , and Bishop there , may erre indéede : for thereby the romish Church doth giue vs to vnderstand , that the light of faith was extinguished in all generally , saue only in the blessed virgin Mary , ( that most holy mother of true God and true man ) and so their vsuall yéerely practise thrée daies together in the wéeke afore Easter , doth vtterly condemne the faith of the Pope and of the Church of Rome . Sixthly , because S. Austen and S. Anselme doe both of them so expound S. Pauls words , the ground of this obiection : these are S. Austens expresse words ; secundum ergo sabbathi &c. therefore we may not vnderstād the second of the sabbath , to be any other then the Church of Christ , yet the Church of Christ in the saints ; the Church of Christ in those which are not ouercome with the tentations of this wicked world , for they are worthy the name of Firmament , therefore the Church of Christ is called the Firmament , in those that are firme ; which is ( saith he ) the Church of the liuing God , the piller and Firmament of truth . The like saying hath the same holy father in many other places , but especially where he writeth against the Donatists . Anselmus an auncient father , and well approued of the papists , doth follow Saint Austens interpretation : these are his words ; Domus in qua Deus habitat &c. the house in which God dwelleth , is the whole congregation of the faithfull , who are to be taught diuersly : and the same Church is in the perfect a pillar , that is , sublime , straight , inconcussible , supporting & lifting vp the yonger sort : and in the same perfect , it is the firmament of truth , because in words and examples , it confirmeth in the hearts of the weake , the verity of faith , and Gods commandements . Out of this discourse of these holy fathers , & famous Popish writers , I gather these golden obseruations . First that a méere lay-mans iudgment euen in matters of faith , ought to bee receiued before the Popes resolution , if that lay-man bring better reasons out of the scripture then the Pope doth : and M. Gerson , that famous Chauncelour of Paris , stoutly def●deth this poynt with their Cardinall Panormitanus , where I wish by the way , to remember wel , that hence it is proued , that not onely méere lay-men may be heard in councels , aud their iudgements preferred before the Popes ; but also that the scriptures are the rule of our faith ; not partiall , as Bellarmine would haue it ( whose opinion is disproued in the Iesuites Antepast ) but totall and in euery respect . Secondly , that a generall councell may erre , because it is not the Catholike or vniuersall Church indéede . And here I thinke it very fit to reduce to your remembrance , what I told you afore out of M. Gerson , viz. that we haue only two Iudges vpon earth , which are infallible , that is , not the Pope forsooth , or the Church of Rome , but the whole congregation of the faithfull , and a generall councell : but what general councel ? of Trent ? of Lateran ? of Florence ? of Rauenna ? of Ferrara ? of Rome ? No , no , such are prouincial , or at the most , national , not any one of them , or such like truly generall : for ) as M. Doctor Gerson very learnedly told vs ) that Councel which cannot erre , must not onely be general in what sort soeuer , or sworne to defend the Popes Cannon-law , after the manner of late start-vp Popery ; but it must bee such a general Councel as doth sufficiently represent the whole Church or congregation of the faithfull : for the word ( sufficiently ) which I wished you afore to marke , out of M. Gersons doctrine , is very emphatical , and giueth light both to the truth , and to Panormitans doctrine , which word , if it bee not well marked , there will séeme a variance betwéene the two learned Papists , Panormitan and Gerson : for the one of them saith , that a general councel may erre , and it is true : the other sayth that a generall councell cannot erre , but is the second infallible iudge vpon earth , and this is also true , but in a different respect : both the learned men agrée in this , and my selfe with them , that the whole congregation of the faithfull is that Church , which cannot erre in faith : for , though the elect may erre in part , and at some time , yet shall they neuer erre , either all generally , or any one finally : for whom , and in respect of whom , the Church is rightly called the piller of truth : this is onely it , in which they vary ; which is no true variance indéede , but séemeth so in shew of words : for that Councell which sufficiently ( marke the word ) doth represent the whole congregation of the faithfull , ( when and where such a one can be had , ) may truely be called the Catholike Church militant here on earth . Thirdly , that that Church which cannot erre , is not the visible company of Bishops and Priests , Pastors , and Doctors ; but the society of the predestinate , which are effectually called to the knowledge of the truth . Fourtly , that it is the society and congregation of the faithfull , which the Apostle calleth the piller of truth : and neither the Pope , nor his Cardinals , nor yet the Church of Rome , albeit ( M. Theophilus ) yée know it right well , that when the papists speake of the Church , and tell vs it cannot erre , then doe ye meane either your Pope alone , or the Pope with his Cardinals and others of that crew . Fifthly , that the Popes owne deare Doctors haue told his holinesse roundly , that it is not the Pope that cannot erre , but the congregation of the faithfull : If any man should this day tell the Pope this tale , burning with fire and faggot would soone be his reward : howbeit , such their bookes are yet extant in many mens hands : for which benefit , Gods name be blessed , for it is his handy worke : we haue cause to crie a lowd with the Prophets ; Hoc factum est a Domino , & est mirabile in oculis nostris . Oblection . 4. Theoph. Christ promised to be with his Apostles vnto the worlds end : which must needes vnderstoode of the Bishops of Rome , the onely true successors of the Apostles : for seeing the Apostles departed hence long sythence , it must , perforce , be vnderstood of some Bishop , which finally succeed them . Remig. True it is , and more cannot be inferred of the text , that Christ spake not onely of the Apostles , but euen of them also , who should be liuing vnto the worlds end . Howbeit , he meant neither the Bishop of Rome , nor his Cardinals , nor the Church of Rome : what meant he then , ( will you say ) or of whom did he speake of , séeing the Apostles , being mortal , were to goe the way of all flesh , and so could not be here on earth till the worlds end ? Christ therefore promising to be with them to the worlds end , must perforce meane of those who were to succéede after them : but I answere withall facilitie : to this inuincible so supposed Bulwarke , First , with S. Chrysostome in these words : nam cum dicit , ecce ego vobiscum sum omnibus diebus vsque ad consummationem seculi ; non ad eos tantum loquitur , sed per eos ad vniuersum prorsus orbem : for when he saith ; behold , I am with you alwaies vntill the end of the world ; he speaketh not onely to them , but to al , doubtlesse , that are in the whole world . and the like assertions the same golden-mouthed father hath in many other places of his workes . Secondly , with S. Austen in these words ; non itaque sic dictum est Apostolis , eritis mihi testes in Hierusalem , & in tota Iudaea , & Samaria , & vsque ad extremum terrae &c. it is not therefore so said to the Apostles , yée shall be my witnesses in Hierusalem , and in all Iury , and in Samaria , and euen to the vtmost parts of the world , as if they onely to whom he theu spake , should haue accomplished so great a matter , but as he seemeth to haue said onely to them , that which he said in these words : behold , I am with you to the worlds end : which thing neuerthelesse euery one perceineth , that the spake it to the vniuersall Church , which by the death of some , and by the birth of other some , shall continue to the worlds end ; euen as he saith that to them , which doth nothing at all pertaine to them , and yet is it spoken , as if it onely pertained to them , to wit , when yée shall see these things come to passe , know that it is neare in the doores : for , to whom doth this pertaine , but to those who shall then be liuing , when all things shall be accomplished ? Thus writeth Saint Austen , out of whose words with S●int Chrysostoms , I obserue this memorable doctrine : viz , y● this obiection , wherein the papists glorie more then a little , maketh nothing for them : for ( as say those holy fathers ) these words already recited , 〈◊〉 spoken to the whole congregation of the faithfull , which are or shall be to the worlds end : and Saint A●ston proueth it by two reasons . First , because not onely the Apostles , but others together with them , should be his witnesses in Hierusalem and Samaria , albeit Christ spake that of them , touching the being witnesses of him , as he spake this to thē concerning his spiritual presēce , & therfore as he spake the other to all the faithfull , so did he also this , y● is , promised his inuisible presence , not onely to the Apostles or Pastors of the Church , but euen to all the faithfull in the world . Secondly , because Christ spake that to his Apostles , as pertaining onely to them , which for all that did nothing at all concerne them : as if he had said , it is not a good reason , to deny Christs presence to the whole Church , because he vttered the words onely to the Apostles : for , séeing he spake that to the Apostles , which pertained nothing to them , but onely and solely to others , much more might he speake y● to them , which betongeth to them with others . The first reply . Theoph. Christ himselfe saith , that the holy Ghost shall teach the Apostles all truth ; euen many things , whereof they were not capable then : and therefore did he reserue those things , till ▪ the comming of the holy Ghost , who should continue with them for euer for that end . Remig. I answere , that the holy Ghost , after Christs ascension , taught the Apostles all truth indéede , of such things as he had reserued by reason of their ●udity and imperfection in conceiuing heauenly doctrine : but withal ▪ I say ; that those things so reserued , and the truth so taught , was nothing else but a manifest explication of the selfe same verity , which they in briefe before had heard : For , the holy Ghost did coyne no new doctrine , nor reueale any new articles of faith ; but onely taught the Apostles the true sense of Christs words , which afore for their dulnes they were not able to perceiue : which sense , they being directed by the instinct of the holy Ghost , deliuered to the whole world , First by word , and afterward by writing . This mine answere thus explicated , I proue by two euident demonstrations : First , because Christ himselfe doth so expound himselfe , in these words following : ( He shall teach you all things , and bring all things to your remembrance which I haue told you ) , Which assertion must be well noted , because the latter words are a plaine declaration of the former : as if Christ had said , all things which the holy Ghost shall teach the Apostles after my departure , are no new doctrine , but the very same things which they heard afore of me . This onely difference there is , y● the Apostles do more plainly vnderstand them , by the assistance of the holy Ghost . Secondly , because the best learned Popish Doctors , doe constantly de●end the same doctrine , and this mine exposition . For y● famous Schooleman , and great learned Popish Bishop , Melchior Canus , hath these expresse words ; Nec vllas in fide no●as Reuelationes Ecclesia habet : For the Church hath no new reuelations in matters of faith . Thus teacheth Christ himselfe : and thus their ●●i●e learned Bishop affirmeth : and yet will the Papists porfor●e compell vs dayly to admit new doctrines from the Church of Rome . The second reply . Theoph. Christ promiseth the continuance of the holy Ghost , euen after the death of the Apostles . ergo , he meaneth of their successors aswell as of themselues . Remig. I answere that Christ promiseth the presence of the holy Ghost here , as he did afore , his owne presence to the worlds end , and so one and the same answere may fitly serue to both , to wit , that the holy Ghost is promised to the whole congregation of the faithful : the Doctors of Paris are all of the same opinion . The third reply . Theoph. Christ commanded the people to do whatsoeeuer the Scribes and Pharisees willed them to obserue , and this he did for this respect onely , because the Scribes and Pharisees sate in Moses chaire : But doubtlesse , if they sitting in Moses chaire could haue erred , Christ would neuer haue commanded his disciples and the people so strictly to obserue their doctrine : and none will , or can deny , that to sit in Peters chaire , hath as great prerogatiue euery way , as to sit in Moses chaire : ergo , the Pope that now sittes in Peters chaire at Rome , can neuer teach false doctrine . Remig. I answere : first , by the Popes owne decrées in these expresse words : Multi Sacerdotes , & pauci Sacerdotes , multi in nomine , & pauci in opere . Videte ergo fratres , quomodo sedetis super cathedram , quia non cathedra facit Sacerdotem , sed Sacerdos cathedram . Non locus sanctificat hominem , sed homo sanctificat locum . Non omnis Sacerdos sanctus , sed omnis sanctus est Sacerdos , qui bene sederit super cathedrā , honorē accipit cathedrae , qui malè sederit , iniuriam facit cathedrae . Many Priests and few Priests , many in name , & few in worke : therfore my brethren , beware how you sit vpon the chaire : for not the chaire makes the Priest , but the Priest makes the chaire : the place doth not sanctifie the man , but the man sanctifies the place : euery Priest is not a holy man , but euery holy man is a Priest : hee that shall sit well in the chaire , receiues the honor of the chaire : but he that sits euill doth iniury to the chaire . Thus saith the Popes own decrée . I ad nothing , I change nothing : I wil deale sincerely , vpon my saluation . Would to God the Pope and his Iesuited Popelings , did this day put this decrée in practise Christianly . Let not the Popes henceforth , boast of sitting in Peters chaire . Let them remember that they be many in name , but few in worke : they haue not this hundred yeares , preached an hundred Sermons . What say I ? an hundred Sermons ? for so farre as I can learne not one at all : therefore as the Popes owne Canons tell vs , the Popes did honour Saint Peters chaire . Secondly with Saint Austen , in these expresse words : sedendo Cathedram Moysi , legem Dei docent ; ergo per illos Deus docet : sua vero si illi docere velint , nolite audire , nolite facere : sitting in the chaire of Moyses , they teach the law of God ; therefore God teacheth by them : but if they will néedes teach their owne inuentions & fantasies , then heare them not , doe not as they bid you do . Thirdly with Saint Hilary in these words : cum igitur doctrina Pharisaeorum ob id probabi●is esse docetur , quia ipsi in Moysi Cathedra sederunt , doctrina necessatio significatur in Cathedra : séeing therefore , that the doctrine of the Pharises is for that proued probable , because they sate in the chaire of Moyses ; therefore by the chaire , doctrine must of necessity be signified . Thus write these two auncient and most learned fathers : by whose iudgements it is very cléere and euident , that the chaire of Moyses , and the doctrine of Moyses , is all one : and consequently , that not they who occupy the roome of Moyses , or Peter , are to be followed , but they that teach the doctrine of Moyses and Peter are to be heard , and their commaundements must be done : and ce●tes , if euer the Bishops of Rome , ( the late Popes I meane , ) shal be able to proue that they preach no otherwise then Saint Peter did , ( if first they preach at all ) nor decrée or commaund no otherwise then Saint Peter or Saint Paul did , I wil obey them , I will with a beck , doe as they commaund me . Fourthly , I answere with popish Fryer Lyra , ( whom Sir Thomas Moore called a great Clearke , & the Pope so estéemeth his writings , ) in these expresse words : omnia quaecunque dix●rint vobis , facite , q uia Praelatis etiā malis est obediendum , nisi in his quae sunt manifestè contra Deum : doe all things that they shall say vnto you , because we must obey euen those Prelates that be euill , vnlesse they teach plainely against God. Fifthly , with Dionysius Carthusianus , in these very words : hoc est absolutê & vniuersaliter intelligendum , quia Scribae & Pharisaei multa superstitiosa & falsa docuerunt , corrumpentes scripturam , & irritum facientes verbum Dei per suas traditiones : intelligendum est ergo de Predicatoribus eorum , non contrarijs legi Moysimalis : enim Praesidētibus obediendū est , quādi● non docent nec iubent contraria Deo : this must not be vnderstoode absolutely and generally , because the Scribes and Pharisies taught many superstitious and false things , corrupting the Scripture , and making frustrate the word of God with their traditions : we must therefore vnderstand it of their Preachers , which teach nothing contrary to the Law of Moyses : for we must obey euill Rulers , so long as they neither teach nor commaund against God. Thus write Lyranus and Carthusianus , two famous Popish Fryers , teaching the selfe saine doctrine , with the holy Fathers , Saint Austen and Saint Hylary : viz , y● we must beléeue those Preachers and teachers , that teach the same doctrine which Moyses thaught , & that y● is to fit in the chaire of Moyses , but not barely to occupy the place . The fourth Reply . Theoph. God commaunded to obey the Priests , and not to swarue in any one iote from their doctrine , by turning either to the right hand or to the left : this argument seemeth to me to be vnanswerable . Remig. Marke well my answere , and then you will say it is of no force : I answere thus , that the Priests of Moyses law might e●●e , and did , de facto , erre indéede : which conclusion I haue already proued , out of the doctrine of the Scribes and Pharisees : for , they were not onely wicked men in life and conuersation , but they also seduced the people , taught false doctrine , and corrupted the pure word of God : which point , because it is a thing of great consequence , I will endeuour my selfe by Gods helpe , to make it plaine vnto you . And because nothing is or can be of greater force against the papists then to confute their doctrine by the testimony of their owne approued Doctors , I will after my wonted manner , alledge the expresse words of approued papists , who were very deare vnto your Pope : Nicolaus Lyranus , ( who hath written very learned commentaries vpon the whole Bible , the old and new Testament , ) a zealous popish Fryer , hath these words ; hic dicit glos●a Hebraica , si dixerint tibi , quod dextra sit sinistra , vel sinistra dextra , talis sententia est tenenda ; quod patet manifestè falsum , quia sententia nullius hominis cuiuscunque sit authoritatis , est tenenda , si contineat manifestatè falsitatem , vel errorem . Et hoc patet , period quod permittitur in textu Postea subditur , et docuerint te iuxta legem eius , ex quo patet , quod si dicant falsum , et declinent a lege Dei manifestè , non sunt audiendi . Here saith the Hebrew glosse , if they shall say to thée , that the right hand is the left , or the left hand the right , such sentence is to be holden , which thing appeareth manifestly false : for , no mans sentence , of how great authority soeuer he be , must be holden or obeied if it manifestly conteine falshood , or errour : & this is manifest by that which goeth before in the text , they shall shew to thée the truth of iudgemēt . It followeth in the Author ; and they shall teach thée according to his law . Hereupon it is cléere ; that if they teach falsly , and swarue from the law of God manifestly , then are they not to bée heard or followed . Thus writeth this learned Popish Doctor : out of whose words , well worthy to be engrauen in golden letters , I note these memorable obseruations . First , that our Papists now a dayes are so grosse , and sens●es , as were the old Iewish Rabbins , as who labour this day to enforce vs to beléeue the Pope , though hée erre neuer so grosly ; telling vs that chalke is chéese , and the left hand the right . Secondly , that Nicholaus de Lyra , a great learned Papist , ( whose authority is a mighty argument against the Papists ) doth here expresly condemne the grosse errour of the Hebrew Doctors , and in them the impudent errour of all Iesuites and Romish Paras●tes , who to satisūe the humour of their Pope , and to vphold his Antichristian tyranny , doe wrest the holy scripture from the manifest truth thereof . Thirdly , that we must neither beléeue Bishop nor the Pope of Rome , nor any mortall man of what authority soeuer , if he teach vs contrary to the manifest truth of Gods word . Fourthly , that this learned Popish Doctor , doth gather out of the text it selfe , that the high Priest might erre , preach false doctrine , and consequently , that the Iesuite Bellarmine doth but flatter the Popes holinesse , when he bestirreth himselfe to proue out of this place , that the Bishops ●f Rome cannot erre , because the Iewish Bishops had the like priueledge , and could not teach against the truth . The same Doctor Lyra deliuereth the same doctrine in effect in another place , where he hath these words : Ve vobis Scribae : hic ostendit qualiter corrumpebant veritatem doctrinae , in his quae pertinent ad salutem : Dicebant enim quod obseruare legem erat necessariū omnibus ad salutē , quod falsum est , quia multi gentiles sunt saluati , vt Iob & plures alij : ex suppositione autem huius falsi , discurrebant alioqui doctores Hebraei per diuersas ciuitates & castra , vt possent conuertere aliquos de Gentilitate ad Iudaismum : Wo to you Scribes : here he sheweth how they corrupted the truth of doctrine : euen in those things which pertaine to saluation : for they said , that the kéeping of y● law was necessary for all men vnto saluation , which is false , because many Gentiles are saued , as Iob and sundry others : by reason of this false supposition , some Hebrew doctors wandred through diuers Cities & Townes , that so they might conuert some from Gentility to Iudaisine againe . The same Lyra hath these words : Vae vobis D●ces caeci : hic consequenter ostendit , qualiter corrumpebāt veritatem doctrinae , in his quae pertinent ad actū latr●ae , cuius actus est iurare modo debito , & iuramentum obseruare : Pharisaei enim & Scribae ex cupiditate moti , dicebant , quod illi qui iurabant per templum Dei , nec peccabant , nec erant in aliquo obligati , sed illi qui iurabant per aurum Templi , erant obligati ad soluendum Sacerdotibus certam portionem auri : Wo to you blind guides : here he sheweth consequently , how they corrupted the truth of doctrine , in those things which pertaine to the pure and proper worshippe of God , the act whereof is to sweare after a due manner , and to performe the oath : for the Scribes & Pharisees ●●oued with couetousnesse , said , that they who did sweare by the Temple of God , neither sinned , neither were bound to doe any thing , but they who did sweare by the gold of the Temple , were bound to giue some portion of gold to the Priests : Dyonisius Carthusianus another zealous , famous , and learned papist , defendeth the same doctrine : these are his owne wordes : Non sinitis intrare , quia falsa doctrina & prauis exemplis peruertitis eos : sequitur , qui dicitis , quicunque iurauerit per Templum , nihil est , id est , solucre non tenetur , & fi peieret , non erit criminis reus : You doe not suffer them to come in , for you preuent them with false doctrine , and euill example : you say , whosoeuer sweareth by the Temple , it is nothing , that is to say , he is not bound to kéepe his o●th , and if he be forsworne , he shall not be guilty of any crime : yea , Caietanus y● famous ▪ Cardinall of Rome , teacheth the selfe same doctrine with the other papists : and Melchior Canus a very famous popish Bishop , and profound schoole Doctor hath these words : Fatemur Sacerdotes n● esse audiendos , nisi docuerint iuxta legem Domini : We graunt ( saith the famous and best learned papist of all the rest ) that the Priests ought not to be heard , or obeyed , vnlesse they shall preach and teach according to Gods law : thus we sée or may sée if we hide not our eyes , that by the iudgement of these great papists , the Bishops and Priests of the old lawe , did not onely scandalize the people with their wicked life , but also taught false doctrine , & corrupted the holy scripture : and it is a wonder to sée and consider , the palp●ble blindnesse or else malice of our Iesuited papists : for , the very words of the lawe , ( if we marke them well ) doe plainely expresse and liuely set before our eyes , the true sense and meaning thereof , viz , that we must then obey the Priests , & then hearken to their commaunds , when they teach according to Gods lawe , but not when they wrest and corrupt his holy and sacred word : the words of the text are these : & facies quodcunque dixerint , qui praesunt loco quem elegerit Dominus , & docuerint te iuxta legem eius : And thou shalt do whatsoeuer they shall say , which are ouer that place which the Lord hath chosen , and shall teach thée according to his law . Loe this condition is required , that the Priests doe teach Gods lawe : for these words are taken out of the Latin vulgata editio , which the late Councell of Trent preferreth before the Hebrew and the Gréeke ▪ and strictly tieth all papists to the same . The fifth reply . Theoph. The words do not import any condition , but a meere assertion and flat promise , that they shall not erre : for so teacheth the Prophet Malachie : Labiae Sacerdotis custodient scientiam , & legem requirent ex ore eius , quia Angelus Domini exercitnum est : The Priests lips shall keepe knowledge , and they shall seeke the law at his mouth , for he is the Angell of the Lord of hostes . Remig. I answere : first , that the words in Deuteronomie doe plainely insinuate , or rather emphatically expresse a conditionall precept : for , in the ninth verse , the people are charged to aske councell of the Priests and Iudges , and in the tenth verse , the Priests are charged to teach according to Gods law : as if God had said , in all thy difficult and distressed cases , thou shalt haue re●ourse to my Priests , because I haue giuen them in charge , to teach and instruct thée in the true sense and meaning of my law : if there arise , saith the text , a matter too hard for thée in iudgement , thou shalt come to the Priests , who are appointed to doe iustice , and to tell the true meaning of the lawe . Secondly , that the Prophet Malachie is not repugnant to holy Moyses , but giueth his readers to vnderstand , that the Priests office is to knowe the lawe , and truely to teach the people the same : so as we may cléerely note a condition required at the Priests hand , but can finde no promise made vnto him , that he shall accomplish and performe the same : nay , it is euident many wayes , that the Priests had no promise made , that they should euer teach the lawe truely . First , because the scripture telleth vs euery where , how grossely and shamefully the Priests haue erred : that which we haue heard already of the Scribes and Pharises , may be a sufficient testimomony and triall therof . Secondly , because the next words following in the text , will make mine exposition good : these are the expresse words of the Prophet , but ye are gone out of the way , ye haue caused many to fall by the law , yée haue broken the couenant of Leui , saith the Lord of hostes . Marke these words well : so soone as the Prophet hath tolo vs , that the Priests lips shall kéepe knowledge , by and by he addeth but the Priests are gone out of the way , they haue scandalized many by the lawe , they haue broken the couenant of Leui : as if he had said , the Priests indéede should know the lawe , and teach the people the truth thereof , but they doe nothing lesse , they haue scandalized Gods people , they are gone out of the way , they haue broken the couenant of Leui. Where we must note seriously , these words of the Prophet ( but ye haue broken the couenant of Leui ) for , in that he saith , ye haue broken the couenant , he plainely giueth vs to vnderstand , that the Priests had not performed the condition required at their hands , and implyed in the couenant of Leui. Thirdly , because the text in Deuteronomie , speaketh aswell of the politicall and ciuill Iudge , as of the Priest , which Bellarmine your popish Cardinall cannot deny : and yet , that the ciuill Iudge may erre , all , both Iesuits and other Priests will confesse . Fourtly , because in an other place of the law , the same promise that is here made to the Priests ( which I cal a condition required and implied in the couenant of Leui ) is made generally to all ciuil Iudges and Officers . Thess are y● words : Iudges & Officers shalt thou make thée in all thy Cities , and they shall iudge the people with righteous iudgement . Where I note by the way , the falshood of the Latin vulgata editio : which the late popish Councell of Trent extolleth aboue the Gréeke and Hebrew : for , in the Chapter next afore , the text saith thus : Vt iudicent populum , that they may iudge the people : but in the Chapter , which the papists cite for them , it is thus : and they shall teach the people : and in the Prophet Malachie , thus : and the Priests lips shall kéepe knowledge : and yet in the Hebrew text ( which is the fountaine and originall ) the word ( and ) is in euery place : which the Papists guilefully change into the word ( that ) in the 16. Chapter : so to make their matter good , if it would or could be : but let ( v● ) be made ( et ) as it is in the Hebrew , and the question is at an end . For , as it is sayd of the Priests y● they shall teach the truth , so is it sayd of y● ciuill Iudges & officers , that they shall iudge the people righteously : and yet do their aduersaries grant that it is a condition in the ciuill Iudges , and no promise at all : and that therefore they may fayle in doing iustice , and swar●e from the truth therein : so then this is the truth of the question , that where the Scripture sayth , the Priests shall teach the Law , and the iudges minister iustice : it hath no other sense and meaning , but y● their charge & office requireth so much at their hands : there is a cōdition implied of doing , but no promise made of performing : and the Latin vulgata edit●o , doth plainly insinuate this interpretation . Though the papists conceiue no such thing , these are the expresse words : Iudices & Magistratus constitues , &c. vt iudicent populum iusto iudicio , nec in alteram partem declinent : Thou shalt make Iudges and Magistrates in all thy Cities which the Lord thy God giueth thée , throughout thy Tribes , and they shall Iudge the people with righteous iudgement , saith the Hebrew text : that they may iudge the people with righteous iudgement , and not decline into the other part , saith the popish Latin text : where euery child may discerne a condition implied , but no promise of performing the same . Fiftly , because as the Priests are said to teach the law , so are the people said to require the law of them : and consequently if it be a condition in the one , it is so in the other , and semblably if a promise in the one , a promise also in the other . The 6. reply . Theoph. The Apostle telleth vs , that Christ hath put Pastors & Doctors in his Church , vnto the end , that henceforth we be no more children , wauering and carryed about with euery winde of doctrine , ergo , it seemeth that the Pastors of the Church shall euer teach the truth . Remig. This text ( as the others of Deuteronomie and Malachie ) insinuateth a condition of doing , but no promise at all of performing . The 7. reply . Theoph. God gaue Pastors and Teachers to his Church for this end , that they should not be carryed away with false doctrine . But if all persons haue erred , as you affirme , then in vaine did God giue Pastors to his Church , to preserue his ▪ people in the truth . For they that should haue taught the truth , did euen themselues swarue from the truth ; and so they became vnfit instruments to do the will of God. Remig. I answere : first , that albeit Gods will be one , as himselfe is one , willing , by his owne essence , and by one eternall and immutable act whatsoeuer hee willeth ; yet is his will said to be manifold , aswell of the holy Fathers , as of the Schoole-doctors : and this is done for two speciall considerations . The former is , by reason of the variety of the things which God willeth . The latter , for the variety of the manner by which God séemeth to will things . Here vpon arise many divisions of Gods will , assigned by the learned for explication sake . Some deuide Gods will into antecedent and consequent . Some others deuide it into the will of signe , and will of good pleasure . Others , into the will reuealed , and will secret or not reuealed . Others into the will absolute and will conditionate , and the like . Secondly , that though Gods will consequent , and will of good pleasure , be euer accomplished vndoubtedly ; yet is his will antecedent , and will of signe , oftentimes neglected and left vndone . Of the former will , the Prophet speaketh thus : Whatsoeuer pleased the Lord , that did he in heauen , and in earth , in the Sea and in all the depths . And the Apostle sayth : For who hath resisted his will ? Of the latter we haue many examples in the holy Scriptures : God commanded Pharao to let his people go , but Pharao would not obey . God would haue gathered the Iewes together , euen as the Hen gathereth her Chickens vnder her wings , but they would not haue it so . God would haue all men saued , as the holy Apostle witnesseth ; and yet we know by the holy Gospell , that the greater part shall be damned . Thirdly , that Gods will now obiected , is onely Voluntas signi ( his will of signe ) and not voluntas beneplaciti ( his will of good pleasure ) and therefore it can neuer bee effectually concluded out of this Scripture , that the Pastors of the visible Church doe alwaies teach the truth , and neuer swarue from the same : for the Apostle speaketh indefinitely , and indifferently of all Teachers , and of all hearers , of all shepheards and of all shéepe , neither excepting one nor other ; and yet both you know , and I know , that many Preachers preach false doctrine , and that many hearers embrace the same : whereupon it followeth of necessity , that if the Apostle should meane as you would haue him to meane ; then should Christs intent and purpose bée frustrate in very déed , which for all that , is it that your selues impugne . The Apostle therefore meaneth onely this , viz. that Christ sheweth , voluntate signi , what hee would haue his shepheards and shéepe to do , and what is their duty to do , although his voluntas beneplaciti , doe not euer cause the same to be accomplished . The 8. reply . Theoph. You haue fully satisfied me , and proued very pithyly that the Priests commonly swarue from the truth . But I thinke it impossible for you to proue that the high Priest in the law did erre at any time . Remig. What ? impossible say you ? it is a thing so farre from being impossible , that I am able to effect it with all facility . Aaron was the high Priest in the law , and yet erred he most grosly and egregiously , while he taught the people flat Idolatry , telling them that the molten Calues brought them out of the Land of Egypt . Theoph. Aaron indeed consented to Idolatry , and made the molten Calfe , but the text saith not , that hee taught Idolatry . Remig. This is Cosen-german to y● of the Popes double person . Yée haue heard of a Bishop of Rome , that sayd right learnedly ; that he that can hinder sinne and doth it not , is as much in fault as he that doth it . Tullie that heathen Orator , knew the same euen by the sole light of nature . This being so , which the Apostle confirmeth to bée true ; it followeth by a necessary consequence , that Aaron was guilty of the Idolatry committed : and albeit the text say not that he taught Idolatry vocally : yet doth it plainly insinuate , or rather fully expresse that he did it vertually and effectually . For , first , when the people required him to make them Gods , he did not reproue them , but roundly consented to them , where , and when hee should haue vocally told them the Law , the truth whereof by silence he bewrayed . Againe , the people sayd openly , these be thy Gods , O Israel , which brought thée out of the land of Egypt : and yet Aaron was so farre from preaching against that hereticall assertion , that thereupon he built an Altar before the Calfe , and proclaimed , saying , to morrow shall be the holy day of the Lord : as if he had sayd , your doctrine is my doctrine , your faith , my faith , your opinion mine opinion : I practically shew it in building this Altar before the Calfe , and in proclaiming to morrow to bée holyday . Thirdly , the text saith plainely that Aaron made the people naked , and consequently , that he erred in his doctrine . Fourthly , because not the high Priest onely , but all the Priests of the Consistory at Hierusalem , together with the deuill Iudges , were assigned to declare the Law vnto the people . Lastly , ( and this reason striketh dead ) because Caiphas the high Priest erred perniciously and taught most execrable blasphemy , when he denied Christ to be the sonne of God. A true Messias of the world : for as soone as Christ had sayd ( hereafter shall yée sée the sonne of man sitting on the right hand of the power of God , and come in the cloudes of heauen ) The high Priest rent his cloathes , saying hée hath blasphemed , what haue we any more néed of witnesses ? behold , now yée haue heard his blasphemy . Theoph. I am fully satisfied in this point . God , ( for whose sake ye haue taken this great labour ) giue you reward for the same . Now , if it please you , there is another question or two , which I thinke vnanswerable , I would willingly propound them , if it may stand with your fauour . Remig. I sée you desirous to know the truth , and therefore I am not weary of any paines taken in that behalfe . Let vs heare your supposed vnanswerable questions , in Gods holy name : for whose glory and your good , I will answere sincerely , as before . Theoph. My first question is , of the succession of the Popes of Rome : for no Church is able truly to shewe their succession , ( as the Pope , his Cardinals , and Iesuites tell vs ) saue onely the Church of Rome . Remig. I hope in God ( though indéed it be not a thing easily done ) to make it as plaine to you , as I haue done the other question , or rather God in me , that our English Church can shew a better succession , then can the Church of Rome . CHAP. 4. Of the Succession of Bishops in the Church of Rome . Theophilus . NO Church in the vniuersall world is able to shew a perpetuall succession of her Bishops , without interruption , saue onely the Church of Rome : and therefore , seeing God hath appointed & placed in his visible Church ( as the Apostle teacheth vs ) a cōrinual successiō of Bishops vnto the worlds end : the Church of Rome , and none but the Church of Rome , is or can bee the true Church of God. Remig. This indéed is a reason so strong in the iudgement of Papists , that none liuing can truly answere the same . Howbeit when the difficulty thereof shall bée truly examined to the bottome , it will be found of no force at all , but as light as a feather . Theoph. Will you deny the Apostles doctrine ? wil you not grant ( as S. Paul telleth vs ) that there must be Bishops and Priests in the Church , till the worlds end ? Remig. I am very willing to grant euery truth : neither will I deny that there haue béene , are , and shall bée Bishops and Priests , or Pastors and teachers , in this visible Church militant on earth , vntill Christs second aduent , and generall doome of the world . Theoph. Well , there must be Bishops and Priests , or Pastors and Teachers , ( as the Apostle termeth them ) euen to the consummation of Saints , and end of the world . Now sir , you are not able ( say our Doctors , our Iesuits , our Cardinals , our Popes ) to shew or name any Church in the world , but the Church of Rome , which hath alwaies had in it these Pastors and Doctors from Christs visible departure to this day . Remig. I answere , that succession is of two sorts , to wit , materiall and formall . Materiall is of the persons and the places : formal of the faith and doctrine . Touching the succession formal ( which is the principall , and from whence the denomination must bée deriued ) the Church of Rome cannot chalenge it , as it is already proued : for , ( if yée remember ) I haue proued both soundly and plainly , that many Bishops of Rome , haue taught false doctrine , and that not onely as priuate men , but euen as publike persons in their iudiciall definitions and decrées : and consequently that the true , proper , and formall succession , can no way bée truly verified of the Church of Rome . Theoph. That is very true , which yee now say : it cannot bee denyed , but still it seemeth true that the materiall succession perteineth onely to the Church of Rome . Remig. Marke well what I shall sincerely deliuer in this behalfe . Saint Clement ( whose epistles the Papists magnifie , when they séeme to make for their purpose ) testifieth for himselfe , that Saint Peter appointed him to bée his successor . Irenaeus , Epiphanius , Eusebius , and the canon of the Popish Masse , do all with vniforme consent place Linus and Cletus before the sayd Clement . But for all this , Sophronius , Metaphrastes , and the Popish Pontificall ▪ which cannot lye , affirme stoutly and peremptorily , that Saint Peter was liuing after Lynus . This variety so troubled the learned Papist Nauclerus , that he was enforced to coine this new and vntimely hatched distinction , viz. that Saint Peter did indéed appoint Clement to be his successor ; but the sayd Clement perceiuing that it would bee a thing pernicious to the Church , if one Bishop should choose another to bée his successor ; yéelded vp his right , and so Linus was elected in his roome . The bare recitall of this imaginary solution , is a sufficient confutation thereof : for ( as you sée ) hée taketh vpon him to controll S. Peter . Theoph This variety among Catholicke Writers is strange ; and it is more strange , that Clement should alter and change S. Peters constitution . But it surpasses all the rest , that any thing which S. Peter ordeined , could bee pernicious to the Church . Remig. This is an euident demonstration ( that Romish succession is as a nose of waxe , and as vncertaine as the winde ; but I will shew you greater wonders , and by Gods help so vnfold the truth of Popish mangled materiall succession , that you wil loath and detest the same for euer . The famous Papist Onuphrius Panuinius reckoneth vp thirty Schismes in the Church of Rome . But I , for the present , content my self with two ; whereof their owne déere Fryer Bartholomeus Carranza , can instruct them sufficiently . The former Schisme endured for the space of 64. yeares : during which time their godly Popedome was at a vnion in France , & not one day at Rome , albeit ( as yée know ) your Pope , Cardinals , and Iesuited Popelings beare the world in hand , that God placed their holy , s● supposed , seate at Rome . In the latter Schisme of the twaine , thrée of their holy Bishops were Popes at one and the selfe same time , to wit , Iohn the 24 of that name , Bennet the 13. and Gregory the 12. Out of which discourse ▪ two things of great moment are to bée obserued . First , that it is a méere foolery to chalenge any singular prerogatiue , by Saint Peters death at Rome . Againe , that that succession cannot but bée vncertaine ; which is deriued from thrée Bishops , striuing and grinning for the Popedome , as dogges do for a bone . Theoph. The Popes or Bishops of Rome , chalenge S. Peters priuiledges , because he died at Rome . Remig. What ? must Bishops liuing 64. yeares in France , be priuiledged at Rome , because S. Peter dyed there ? better reason it were , to grant the chéekest prerogatiue to the Bishops of Hierusalem , because Christ our Lord and maister dyed there . Theoph. Although three did striue at once for the Popedome , yet could there be but one Pope at one and the same time . Remig. Two no small absurdities doe perforce arise from hence . The one , that the succession of the Popes of Rome ( whereof they glory somuch ) is very doubtfull and vncertaine . The other , that the Church of Rome , was many yeares without a head ; and so by popish doctrine , without an infalible iudge in matters of their faith . But I will tell you a greater mystery . A woman is not capable of holy orders , ( as Christs Apostle assureth vs , ) nor of any Ecclesiasticall function in the Church ; and consequently the Popish succession which is deriued from our holy mistresse Pope Iohn , cannot possibly bée of force . Here the Church of Rome hath vtterly forsaken her succession , and is not comparable to our Church of England , in that behalfe . Theoph. If it were possible for a woman , to bee inthronized into Peters chaire at Rome : then as you say , popish succession were ouerthrowne indeede , it cannot be gainsaid . But such a thing neither hath beene , neither is , neither euer can be till the worlds end . Remig. What ? doe you thinke it a thing impossible to be done ? an huge number of famous popish writers , doe resolutelie contest it for a constant truth . Theoph. If you be able , this to proue indeede , henceforth popish succession , shall neuer come with in my creed . Remig. Sigebertus Geniblasēsis , Marianus Scotus , Matthaeus Palmerius , Martinus Polonus , Philippus Bergomensis , Baptista Platina , Bartholomaeus Carranza , & Iohānes Nauclerus , are my substantial witnesses in this weighty point of Popery , viz that Pope Iohn was a woman , who by the familiar help of her beloued companion , brought forth publikely the homely fruits of her Popedome . Theoph. These writers which you name , were indeede Papists of high esteeme in the Church of Rome , but they liued long after Pope Iohn , and therefore knew nothing of that matter , but by report of others . Remig. I answere : first , that these eight Historiographers , liued longer one after another , then Sigebertus Geniblasensis and Marianus Scotus liued after Pope Iohn . Secondly , that all Historiographers , write for the most part , by the report of others . Thirdly , that so many writers , otherwise of good credit with your Pope , may well be credited of vs in a matter against your Pope ; especially since sundry of them be your owne holy popish Fryers . Fourthly , that this story of Pope Iohn , is publikely painted , and is this day to bée séene in your Cathedrall Church of Syenna : which painting , our politike newly hatched Iesuites , sought earnestly to haue had it defaced , in the late repairing of that Church ; but the Bishop of the place , ( digitus Dei est hic ) would not suffer them to preuaile . Fifthly , that these eight writers , who were all the Popes owne vassals , and liued long one after another , would neuer for shame haue published one and the selfe same story to the world if any one of them could in his life time haue learned the centrary to be the truth . Theoph. They say onely and barely ( vt ferunt ) as the report and fame goes : and other graue writers that liued before them all , and neerer the time of Pope Iohn , make no mention thereof at all . Remig. I answere : first , that an argument , ab authoritate , negatiué , is not holden good in your Schooles ; and yourselues do roundly condemne in others that manner of dispute . Secondly , that if these famous writers had not béene fully perswaded of the truth of the story , they would neuer haue published it to the world : and hereof this double reason may be yéelded . First , for that the Popes déere friends , were , no doubt , very loathto reueale the shame and turpitude of their holy fathers , saue onely then and so much , when and how much the very force of truth compelled them to do . Againe , because they being very learned , could not be ignorant , that it was a great damnable sinne to defame so great a man. Thirdly , that the sayd Authors write of this matter , euen as they do of other things . Palmerius and Sigibertus , both haue these expresse words : Fama est , hunc Iohannem faeminam fuis●e , & vnisoli familiari tantum cognitam , qui eam complexus est , & grauis facta , peperit Papa , existens : quare , eam inter Pontifices non numerant quidam : The fame goes , that this Iohn was a woman , and not knowne but to her familiar friend ; by whose familiarity she became with child , and was deliuered euen whiles she was Pope : for which respect , some do not reckon her among the Popes . Marianus , Polonus , Bergomensis , Platina , and Carranza , ( whom I haue already named ) teach flatly and plainely the selfe same doctrine , writing vpon the same woman Pope : and here must I put you in minde of this mackeable poynt , viz. that Marianus Scotus , affirmeth the story constantly , flatly , and simply , without all ands or iffs . Yea , Martinus Polonus , the Popes owne Penitentiary , singeth the selfe same song . Fourthly , that some Historiographers , fauouring the Pope more then the truth , haue of purpose ( so to couer the Popes shame ) concealed the truth of the story . To these I may fitly adde that which their famous Abbot saith ; the beast ( saith my L. Abbot Bernardus , y● best Abbot that euer I heard or read of ) mentioned in the Reuelation , to whom was giuen a mouth speaking blasphemies , and to make warres with the Saints , fitteth in Peters chaire . Theoph. This is wonderfull which you say , and I hope I may giue credit to your reports , your protestation hath assured me thereof : howbeit for my further satisfaction , let me tel you that one of your authors Nauclerus , by name , vtterly denieth the story , as I haue heard . Remig. I make a conscience , ( I thanke my Lord God humbly for it ) to deale sincerely in all my writings , and with you in this our Christian conference , wishing heartly , that the papists would doe the like : I haue euer dealt so truely and vprightly against the papists in all my writings , as I now in my old and decrepite age , I am ready to take it vpon my saluation , and to seale the truth thereof with my blood . Concerning your report of Nauclerus , you shall truely heare his owne words and that done , yéeld your censure according to the truth : after that this Nauclerus had told a long tale in the fauour of our Woman-Pope , ( so to couer and hide the nakednesse of his holinesse ) at the length he resolueth with himselfe , and concludeth the controuersie in these expresse words : Sed etsi fuit verum , nulli tamen , ex hoc , salutis eme●sit periculum : quia nec Ecclesia tunc fuit fine capite quod est Christus , ait Antoninus : nec enim vltimi effectus Sacramentorum , quae illa conferebat , deficiebant eis qui debite accipiebant , scilicet gratia , licet mulier non sit susceptibilis Characteris alicuius ordinis , nec conficere Eucharistiam , etiam de facto ordinata , possit , nec absoluere a peccato , vnde ab ea ordinati erant iterum ordinandi : gratiam tamen Sacramentorum Christus supplebat in recipientibus dign● , ignorantia facti inuincibili eos excusante : But although it were true , no man for all that susteined any losse of his saluation : because euen then the Church had still an head which is Christ , as Antoninus witnesseth : neither did they , who deuoutly preached the Sacraments which he ministred , want the l●st effects thereof , which is grace , albeit a woman be neither capable of any Character of order , neither able to celebrate the Eucharist , or to absolue from sinne , whereupon , such as receiued orders of her , were to be ordered againe , neuerthelesse , Christ supplied the grace of the Sacraments in those that receiued them worthily , inuincible ignorance of the fast excusing them : thus you sée the opinion and verdict of your owne deare Doctor Nauclerus that famous papist , who hath said for the credit of your Pope , what possibly he could deuise : now deliuer your censure in Gods name according to the truth . Theoph. I will confesse the truth : I obserue out of this testimony of our reuerend and learned histriographer , these memorable points of doctrine . First that Nauclerus hath emploied his whole industry , and all his wits , to defend the Pope from shame and dishonour , if it possibly could be done . Secondly , that Antoninus their reuerend Archbishop and canonized Saint , is of his opinion . Thirdly , that Christ is the head of the Church , and that therefore the Church wanted not a head in time of the woman Pope , if euer there were such a monster in the world . Fourthly , that popish succession is as vncertaine as the weather-cocke , howsoeuer my selfe and others , haue hitherto beene seduced therewith : and I humbly thank my Lord God , that by your most Christian instruction , ( as by an instrument appointed by him for that end ) I nowe at the last behold the same . Remig. Non nobis Domine , non nobis , sed nomini tuo da gloriam : it is no small comfort and solace to mine heart , that Gods holy spirit doth so mightily worke in you : you haue obserued well the doctrine of Nauclerus , though some thing may fitly be added thereunte . Two further points of great consequence , are implied in the doctrine of Nauclerus : the one that it is this day doubtfull , which of their romish Cardinals and Bishops be rightly ordered , and whether they be meere Lay-men , or Priests : the other , that the Cardinals , popish Priests , and lay people of Rome , did for many yéeres commit flat idolatry . Theoph. These points could I neuer haue considered in his doctrine , God reward your paines emploied for his sake ▪ but what ? are not the Cardinals and Priests in the Church of Rome , truely and lawfully consecrated in their functions ? Remig. I speake not generally and absolutely , of the consecration of the Cardinals , Bishops , and Priests in the Church of Rome , fit occasion will be offered hereafter , to speake more precisely of that point of doctrine : the question is now , of those particular Cardinals , Bishops and Priests , who were consecrated for such , in the time of the Woman-pope Iohn , for as the Popes owne deare Doctor Nauclerus telleth vs , all such as were ordered by the Woman-pope , were to be ordered again , as being but méere Lay-men . Theoph. I am at my wits end , what to say or thinke of the Church or Pope of Rome . Remig. What ? I am sure you remember the old receiued Maxime ; ( Vbi Papa , ibi Roma ; vbi Roma , ibi Ecclesia Catholica ) where the Pope is , there is Rome ; and where Rome is , there is the Catholike Church . So , as , the Pope is Rome , the Catholike Church , Christ himselfe and all . Theoph. I cannot indeed but remember the same , it is so frequent and vsual in euery learned Papists mouth . But alas alas , the remembrāce thereof , doth this day wound me at the very heart : for hitherto I haue beene taught to hold it for a constant truth , that the Catholike Church , the Church of Rome , and the Popes holinesse , were all as one , that is to say , that the Popes faith , was the faith of the Church of Rome , and the faith of the Church of Rome , the faith of the Catholike Church militant heere on earth . Remig. It is very true which you say , and this approued Romish Maxime confirmeth the same : for when the Pope and his Popelings tell vs , that the Church cannot erre , then do they meane that the Pope cannot erre : and when they speake of the Catholike Church , then they euer meane of y● Church of Rome & of such Churches as iump in faith with the Pope . So then we must iump with the Collier , and say we beléeue as the Church beléeueth , and the Church beléeueth as we beléeue : for , by this learned answere , ( if Cardinall Hosius writ truly ) we may ouercome the diuell ; but when all is said & done , we must beléeue , we cannot indéed tell what : for when y● Pope saith thus and thus you must beléeue , if then he speake as a priuate man , my faith is wan , and no faith indéed : for as a priuate man he may erre , and so both deceiue himselfe and me , as we haue séene already : and yet ( alas for pitty ) these two articles I must hold for an vndoubted truth , which agrée together as Yorke and soule Sutton . First , that the Pope may erre , and become an heretike . Secondly , that I am an Hereticke , vnlesse I beléeue as he teacheth me , if he speake as a publike person . This notwithstanding , I may not , to dye for it , examine the Popes decrées , whether they procéed from him , as hée is a priuate man , or as a publike person : for in so doing , I must incurre the crime of sacriledge . What a thing is this ? silly Papists are brought into greater thraldome & perplexity ▪ then euer was Buridanus himselfe , or the poore beast his Asse . Theoph. I haue bin too long seduced with paltry popery ; I see it is but flat cozenage , and a meere tricke of Legierdemaine . Henceforth I renounce it , and will only obiect my difficulties to be better confirmed in the truth . But sir , I do not yet vnderstand the other point of doctrine , which you obserued out of Nauclerus . Remig. It is cléere out of Nauclerus that the Cardinals , popish Bishops , Priests , and Lay-people of Rome , committed flat Idolatry in the time of their Woman-pope Iohn , who for the honour of S. Peter ( as you haue heard already ) brought forth a child in the altitude of her popedome . Thus you shall vnderstand the same Nauclerus telleth vs plainely , that their woman-pope could neither make Priests , nor yet consecrate their Eucharist . To this doctrine , let vs adde these points . First , that all Papists must adore their Bread-god in euery popish Masse . Secondly that by popish faith , none but popish Priests can turne bread into Christs body . Thirdly , y● all Priests made by their woman-pope were méere Lay-men . This foundation thus firmely layd ▪ we may erect without danger of falling , this high and lofty building , viz that all y● Cardinals , Bishops , Prists , and Lay-people , who euer heard the Masses of their women-pope , or of the Bishops and Priests made by her , did commit flat Idolatry at every one of the sayd Masses : the reason is euident , because such Priests were indéed méere Lay-men , and so could not change the bread and make it God almighty : and consequently the spectators and adorers that were present , adored bakers bread for the euer-liuing God. All this is sound Popish faith and doctrine . Theoph. It is abhomination in Gods sight : but what shall we say to M. Nauclerus ? he seemeth to purge & free the worshippers , by reason of inuincible ignorance . Remig. Our Iesuite S. R. in his pretensed answere to the downefall of Popery , iumpeth in opinion with Nauclerus , he fréely granteth in the place quoted in y● margent , that there is no consecration ( and consequently no God almighty ) when the Priest wanteth both actuall and vertuall intention , or omitteth any essentiall word of their sayd consecration ; but withall hee excuseth the worshippers of bread for God almighty , because of their inuincible ignorance . I returne this answere to them both , viz. that this distinction of ignorance , inuented in Popish Schooles , hath no foundation in Gods word , neither yet , in the pure Cannens of the Popes law . For the former , the Prophet Ezechiel , ( or rather God by the meuth of Ezechiel ) telleth vs plainely and in flat termes , that though the watch-man giue not y● people warning , but suffer them to liue in ignorance , yet shall they be guilty , and perish in their sinues . Yea , Christ himselfe telleth vs , that who knoweth the law and doth it not , shall not be punished alone , but he in like manner shall bée punished for the transgression that knew it not . This mitigation onely is alotted to the ignorant , that his punishment shall be more tollerable , and hee beaten with fewer stripes . For the latter , the Popes owne Canons teach vs , that neither the ignorance of the law of nature , nor of the law diuine can excuse vs , when we offend against the same . Yet true it is , that in humane affaires , and ciuill iudgements , inuincible ignorance will excuse , but Gods iudgements and his waies are not like to mans , they are farre different from them : man can but iudge the externall act , but God searcheth the very heart and veines : man is subiect to Gods lawes , but God is aboue both mans lawes and his owne ; and hath also full power to dispense with the same . There yet remaineth a mortall and vncureable wound in Popish Succession at Rome ; which I hold very necessary for you to know , for your better confirmation in the truth . Theoph. For Christs sake take the paines to vnfold it to me : for nothing is so deare to my soule , as the knowledge of the truth . Remig. The incurable wound , may be reputed the second wonderment of the world : this is it , marke it well . The general Councell of Basil , deposed Pope Eugenius for his contumacie , and chose Amadaeus ( who was named Foelix the first ) and put him in his roome : this , notwithstanding , Eugenius crept againe into the Popedome without any Canonicall election , and continued in the place as Pope . Theoph. I do not well conceiue or vnderstand , what you would inferre hereupon . I therefore humbly craue your larger explication thereof . Remig. The Councell of Basil was holden in Anno , 1439. and summoned Eugenius to appeare before it , then and there to yéeld an account of such matters as the Councell had to obiect against him , but he would not appeare : and therefore for his contuinacie , disobedience , & contempt of the Councels summons , he was by the authority of the sayd Councell deposed , and Amadaeus was made the Pope or Bishop of Rome . The Schisme betwéene Amadaeus and Eugenius continued about nine yeares , vntill Foelix was content to resigne to Nicholas , and then it ended . Now sir , all y● Cardinals , Bishops , Priests , & Deacons , who afterward sprong of Eugenius ( possessing Peters chaire without Canonicall election ) that is , of the Church of Rome , are illegitimate , irregular , schismatikes , vsurpers and not lawfull gouerners of the Church by popish faith and doctrine . Theoph. One refuge the Papists would seeme to haue herein , viz. that the counsell could not depose the Pope : which if it once be proued against them , their backs are at the wall , and their Popish Romish succession . Remig. It is without all question , that a general Councell was and is aboue the Pope : no learned papist euer did , or this day doth deny the same , the Popes themselues , the Iesuits , and Iesuited crew onely excepted . Cardinalis Cameracensis , Abbas Panormitanus , Nicholaus Cusanus , Adrianus Papa , Cardinalis Florentinus , Iohannes Gersonus , Iacobus Almaynus , Abulensis , Alphonsus ▪ the Deuines of Paris and all others , ( except euer before excepted , ) doe resolutely and constantly defend as an vndoubted truth grounded vpon the holy scriptures , that a generall Councell is aboue the Pope : the practicall procéedings of papists euery where , haue yéelded vs an assured argument thereof : for first , the Councell of Basil ( as we haue séene ) deposed Pope Eugemus , and chose Amadaeus in his roome . Secondly , the generall Councell of Constance , ( which was celebrated about 15. yéeres before the Councell of Basill ) did publikely depose thrée Popes ( Iohn , 22. Gregory , 12. and Benedict , 13. ) and those Martin the fifth , and made him Pope : which things doubtlesse , these Councels hauing many very learned men in them , would neuer haue attempted so publikely and so resolutely as they did , if it had not béene a resolued and knowen case and truth , throughout the Christian world . Theoph. The case is cleere and euident to euery indifferent reader : but giue me leaue I pray you , to tell what the papists say to this , the Councell of Basil ( say they ) was not a lawfull Synode , because it had neither the presence of the Pope , nor of his Legats . Remig. This answere is a new inuention of our late strat-vp Iesuits , ( who neuer were heard of or known to y● Church of God , for the space of a thousand , fiue hundred , and forty yéeres after Christs sacred Incarnation , and whose first author was one Ignatius Loyola , a souldier & a Spaniard borne ) hauing neither scripture , Coūcel , father , or good reason , whereupon it may be grounded . For first , the Councel was called by Pope Martin the fifth to be holden at Papias , from whence by reason of the pest it was remoued to Senas , afterward it was translated by Alphonsus the King of Aragon , and continued at Basill , where were present both Sigismundus the Emperour , and Iulianus the Popes owne Legat , and after him Ludouicus the Cardinall of Arles supplied his place . Again , not onely the Councell of Basil , but the Councels also of Constance , of Florence , and of Lateran , did all constantly and vniformely define for an vndoubted truth , that a generall Councell is aboue the Pope , and hath authority to cite him , to controll him , and to depose him : for due proofe and triall whereof , the Councell of Constance deposed , de facto , thrée Popes , viz. Iohn 23. Gregory 12. and Benedict 13. and chose Martin the first , and made him Pope in his place . Another or two like mortall wounds I could vnfolde vnto you , but these séeme to me sufficient . Theoph. For Christs sake , take the paines to relate them , it is a thing well worth the labour . Remig. Pope Sergius the third , caused the corps of Pope Formosus ( who now had béene dead almost tenne yéeres ) to be taken out of his tombe , and to bee set in a chaire , with y● pontificall attire vpon him ( O braue Gallant ? ) and that done , his head to be cut off , and to bée cast into the riuer Tiber. He disanulled the acts and orders giuen by Pope Formosus , insomuch as all were enforced to take orders againe , who had béen made Bishops or Priests by Pope Formosus . Theoph. Marry sir , the Papists may boast indeed of their Romish succession , and be derided of all wise men for their paines . Remig. Amongst the Popes excommunications the 29. is against the Colledge of Cardinals in the Romish Church , who by Symonie or Symoniacall pacts , procure themselues to bee aduanced to the Popedome . By verture of which excommunication , all such as are made Popes by Symony & Symoniacall pacts , doe , ipso facto , incurre the sentence of excommunication , from which they can neuer be absolued , but by one that is Pope indéed , and Canonically elected thereunto . Upon which excommunication , one of the Popes inquisitors , Bartholomaeus Fumus , a very learned Dominican Fryer , hath published this commentary , for the true sense & meaning of that extrauagant , which Pope Iulius the second diuulged in that behalfe : these are his expresse words : Nota hic & bene , Papa Simoniacé electus non est ve●e Papa Note here , and that to good purpose , that the Pope which is elected by Symonie , is not the true Pope indéed . Marke well , and let me sée what you obserue out of this discourse . Theoph. I see euidently by the Popes own constitution , and flat decree , ( as by the law of the Medes and Persians ) which no papist may withstand or gainsay , that whosoeuer is chosen Pope by Simony , is no Pope indeede . Remig. You haue marked the discourse very well , let vs now proceede , and looke circumspectly into the matter , as which is of so great importance , as nothing can be more : Baptista Platina a man very néere and very deare vnto the Popes , ( as who was by office Abbreuiator Apostolicus , and consequently best acquainted with the manners and dealings of Popes ) telleth vs roundly and constantly , that the Popes of latter dayes crept into the Popedome , by gifts bribes , and Simony : these are his expresse words : eò enim tum Pontificatus deuenerat , vt qui plus largitione & ambitione , ( non dico sanctitate vitae & doctrinae valere● ) is tantummodo dignitatis gradum , bonis oppressis & reiectis obtineret , quem morem : vtinam aliquando non retinuissent nostra tempora : For to that passe was the Popedome now brought , that whoseeuer was able to preuaile most in giuing bribes & in ambition , ( I say not in good life and doctrine , ) that many onely should haue the degrée of honour , and good men should be reiected , which custome would to God our d●y●● had neuer knowne . Again , that same Platina in another place hath these words : Adeo enim inuoluerat hic mos , vt i●m cuique ambitioso liceret Petri sedem inuadere : For this custome did so encrease , th●t now euery ambitious fellow might inuade Saint Peters chaire . Gregory the fifth was by sedition thrust out of his throne , and Pope Iohn the 18. by tyrannie occupied the Popedome : so write both Platina and Carranza , who were the Popes good friends , albeit they could not conceale the truth hereof : yea Platina procéedeth further , and saith : qua quidem beatitudine Iohannes carnit , fur certè in Pontificatu & latro . Non enim vt par fuerat , per ostium intraut : which happy life Pope Iohn wanted , as who was a théefe and a robber : for hee entred not in by the doore , as he ought to haue done . To be briefe , Pope Bonifacius the eight , may sound the Trumpet for all the rest : for , of him thus writeth his deare Feyer Carranza : Intrauit vt Vnlpes , regnauit vt Lupus , mortuus est vt Canis : he entred as a Foxe , he reigned as a Woolfe , he died as a Dogge . By this discourse , two things are cleered , which are of so great weight and moment , as they are able to batter downe popery , and to draw it vnder foote . For first , what Bishop soeuer is made Pope , by gifts , bribes , and Simony , that Bishop neither is , nor can be the true Pope indéed . Secondly , the Bishops of Rome haue now ●or a long time béene very wicked men , and haue aspired to the Popedome by bribes and Simony . To which two maine points of popery , this third ( as a golden corollary ) is consectary , and cannot be denied , viz , that the Bishops of Rome for many yeeres , were not true Bishops or Popes in very déede : and consequently , by popish doctrine , there are no true popish Bishops in the world . Theoph. All the Iesuits and Iesuited papists in the world , are neuer able truly to answere these reasons , for doubtles , they are insoluble . Remig The 18. excommunication falleth vpon all those which deny the Church of Rome to be the head of all other Churches , and the Pope to be the commaunder of all people : this excommunication was thundred out , for the establishing of the Popes tyranny throughout the Christian world : the 21. excōmunication is against all such as shall boldly affirme either that the blessed Virgin Mary was conceiued in originall sinne , or not so conceiued : and shall thereupon condemne them of heresie , or of mortall sinne , that hold , preach , or defend the contrary : this excommunication Pope Sixtus the fourth thundred out in his Extrauagant , in the yéere 1474. by which practicall procéedings and doctrine , we may easily espie the vncertainety of the Popes faith and religion , as also his ignorance , in the high mysteries of popish doctrine : for , though he cannot erre iudicially in matters of doctrine , as the papists must beléeue , yet can he not decide this easie question , whether the Virgin Mary was conceiued in originall sinne , or not : but Aquinas the Popes angelicall doctor and canonized Saint , ( whose doctrine two Popes , Vrbanus the fourth , and Innocentius the fifth , haue confirmeth to be sound and true ▪ ) affirmeth resolutely , that she was conceiued in originall sinne : tell me now , what ye thinke of the Popes succession at Rome ? Theoph. I see flatly and euidently , that by popish doctrine , faith , and religion , we cannot this day tell , who are true Bishops of Rome indeed : and consequently , that the succession deriued from them , is of no credit or force at all : but yet by your fauour , I desire your further resolution to such shewes and colours of succession , as they pretend for the Church of Rome . Saint Austen saith , ( say they ) that the succession of Priests euen from Saint Peter to these daies , kept him in the bosome of the Church : so Optatus , Tertullianus , & others , do often alledge , & stand vpon the succession of Bishops , as an argument of the truth . Remig. It is true , that Saint Austen made a great account of the succession of Bishops in the Church of Rome , and my selfe ( also all learned men I thinke , ) doe iumpe with Saint Austen in that his opinion : for the resolution of which obiection , sundry obseruations already Proued are to be well remembred . First , that the Bishops of Rome were in the beginning , many of them holy Martyre , who gaue their liues for the testimony of our Lord Iesus . Secondly , that they ioyned formall succession with materiall , vntill Saint Austens dayes and long after . Thirdly , that the Church of Rome by little and little swarued from the truth , and declined in many points of doctrine from the auncient receiued faith . Fourthly , that the latter Bishops of Rome haue decreed publickely against the knowen faith : in so much , as some of them haue béene condemned with the sound of the Trumpets , other some haue béene conuicted of Arrianisme , others of Nestorianisme others of flat Atheisme , others to haue crept into Peters chaire , ( as they terme it ) by flat Simony , others haue occupied the place by violent intrusion , others by homage done to the diuel of hell . Fifthly , that faith and honest dealing was now decaied in the Church of Rome , and long before the daies of Carranza and Platina brought to that miserable estate , that euery ambitious fellow might inuade Peters seate . Sixthly , that by popish doctrine and vniforme assertions of best approued popish writers , succession in the Church of Rome is so doubtfull , that they cannot proue themselues this day to be true Bishops indeed : I say ( by popish doctrine ) because my selfe doe hold them true Bishops , though very wicked and vngodly men : of which point I shall haue occasion , to speake of more at large by and by : my answere therefore in briefe is this : viz , that the Bishops of Rome in Saint Austens time , ioyned formall succession with materiall , which if the Bishops of Rome would this day performe , all godly Christians would now ioyne with them , as Saint Austen did in his time : for as Saint frene say , we ought to obey those Priests , that with the succession , kéepe the word of truth . Theoph. Saint Paul saith plainely , that there must bee Bishops and Pastors in the church vntill the worlds end : whereupon it followeth ( say the Papists , whom now I haue vpon good grounds renounced ) that you Protestants haue no Church at all : for before Luther departed from them , all Bishops and Priests for many yeares together , embraced their Romish religion . This obiection ( say our Iesuites and Iesuited Popelings ) doth so gall the Protestants , as they cannot tell in the world , what answere to frame thereunto . Remig. I answere : first , that we are the true reformed Catholikes , as is already proued Secondly , that Pastors & Doctors ( as S. Paul saith ) haue euer béene in the Church , are at this present , and shall be to the worlds end . Thirdly , that albeit the visible Church cannot want materiall succession ( the continuance whereof Christ hath promised ) yet cannot that succession without formall , yéeld any sound argument of true faith and religion . For which respect the famous Papist Nicholaus de Lyra , after he hath told vs that many Popes haue swarued from the faith , and become flat Apostataes , concludeth in these expresse words : propter quod Ecclesia consistit in illis personis , in quibus est notitia vera , et confessio fidei & veritatis . By reason whereof , the Church consisteth in those persons , in whom there is true knowledge , and confession of the faith and verity . Thus writeth this learned popish Fryer , telling vs resolutely , y● though there must be euermore a visible Church , with visible Pastors & Doctors in it , yet those visible Pastors & Doctors , both may swarue , & haue de facto , swarued , from the true faith & religion : and that therefore the Church indeed consisteth of the predestinate and elect children of God , whose faith shall neuer faile : this poynt you haue heard so pithely approued , as is able to satisfie euery in different reader . Theoph. The Iesuites say that howsoeuer you wrangle about your formal succession , yet it is cleere that you haue no material succession at all , vnlesse you tearme it material succession , when meere Lay-men occupy the roomes of lawful Bishops : for none may take vpon them , or intrude thēselues into the holy ministery , but such as are lawfully called thereunto , as Aaron was : & yet all the world can tell you , that all your Ministers , Bishops , Priests , and Deacons , in the time of King Edward , and Queene Elizabeth , and now of King IAMES , haue no other orders & consecration at all , but such as they receiued of our Romish Bishops indeede . Remig. Our succession is both materiall and formall , Christian and Apostolicall : as which is consonant to the holy Scriptures , and to the vsuall practise of the primitiue Church . For first , our Bishops can proue their Doctrine by the scriptures , and by the testimonies of best approued popish writers , as we haue séene already . Secondly , our Bishops haue mission and imposition of hands , according to the practise Apostolical ▪ and of all approued antiquity . Thirdly , our Bishops are made in such forme and order , as they haue euer béene accustomed , a few popish , superstious , and beggerly ceremonies omitted , which by little & little ▪ had of late yeares crept into the Church , that is to say , by frée election of the Chapiter , by consecration of the Arch-bishop , and other his associates , and by the admission of the Prince . Theoph. Saint Epiphanius inueigheth bitterly against one Zachaeus , who being but a Lay-man ( as your Puritaines be ) presumed impudently to handle the holy Mysteries . S. Hierome in like manner saith of Hilarius the heretike , that he could neither baptize nor administer the Eucharist , because he was but a Deacon whē he went out of the church , and what are you but Deacons ? nay what are you but meere Lay-men ? for you are neither consecrated after the old manner , nor confirmed by the Pope , as the Iesuits beare the world in hand . Remig. I answere , first , that if méere Lay-men should presume in our Churches , either to preach , teach , or handle the holy mysteries , they could not escape condig●e punishment , according to their demerites Secondly , that the want of your greasing and other begge●ly Ceremonies , ( wherewith the primitiue Church was neuer acquainted , as holy writ teacheth vs , ) cannot make the consecration of our Bishops vnlawfull . Thirdly y● our Bishops are consecrated , & confirmed according to the ancient manner of the primitiue Church : for , three things onely are necessary , all which ( God be thanked for it , ) are this day practised in our Church of England : to wit , election of the whole Congregation , confirmation of the Prince , and consecration with godly praiers , and imposition of hands . Of the last of these thrée , that is , of the imposition of hands , with praier mention is made to Timothie , and else where . For the confirmatiō of the Prince , and not of the Pope ( which is the second point ) this is enough for the tryall , viz. that these thrée Popes , Pelagius the second , Se●erinus , and Benedictus the second , and all other Bishops of Rome till the sayd Benedict , inclusiuè were euer elected and confirmed by the Emperours commandement : which verity is freely confessed in expresse termes ▪ by foure famous Popish writers ; who therefore are and ought to be of more credit and force against the Papists , then any other authors whatsoeuer . The names of the popish Doctors are these : Baptista Platina , Bartholomaeus Carranxa , Anastatius Bibliothecarius , and Onuphrius Panuinius . Piatina hath these words , Ni● enim tum in eligendo Pontifice actū erat ▪ nisi eius electionem Imperator approbasset : for at that time ( which was about the yeere of our Lord God ●●0 . ) nothing was done effectually concerning the election of the Bishop of Rome , vnlesse the Emperour had confirmed the same . Touching the creation of Seuerinus , ( for the other testimony was of Pelagius ) the same Platina writeth in this manner : Vana enim tunc habebatur Cleri ac populi electio nisi Imperatores aut eorum Exarchi confirmassent : For the election of the Clergie and the people was of no force at all in those dayes , vnlesse the Emperours or their Lieutenants had confirmed the same : this was done , about the yéere , 637. Concerning the creation or making of Benedict , Platina hath these words ; ad hunc Constantius Imperator sanctionem misit , vt deinceps quem Clerus , populus , Exercitusque Romanus in Pontificem delegislet , eundem statim verum Christi Vicarium esse omnes crederent , nulla aut Constantinopolitani Principis , aut Italiae Exarchi expectat authoritate , vt antea fieri cōsueuerat id enim ratum erat in creando Pontifice , quod Princeps confirmaslet , vel qui eius vices in Italia gerebat : The Emperour Constantine sent a decrée to this Pope , that whomsoeuer the Clergy , people and Romaine Souldiers should henceforth choose for their Bishop , all people should by and by beléeue him to be the U●car of Christ , ( scilicet ) if they would : This was done in anno 68● . Bartholomaeus Carranza a famous Dominican Frier , hath the very same assertion ad verbum . Anastasius and Onuphrius haue these expresse words . Pontifices qui deinde fuerant , creati & con●ecrati sunt sine Constantinopolitani Imperatoris iussione : The Popes or Bishops of Rome that liued afterward , were made and consecrated without the Emperour of Constantinople his cōmaund : as if they had said , in the old time and auncient Church , no Bishop of Rome could haue bin admitted at any time , vnles he had brought letters patents frō the Emperour though now y● practise be farre otherwise . Now M. Theophilus , tell me what you gather out of this discourse . Theoph. Out of this doctrine of this famous papists , I gather to the confusion of the late Bishops of Rome , their Iesuits , and all Iesuited papists , these three euidents , golden , and most necessary corollaries . First , that the vulgar and common sort of people are grosly deceiued , when they terme popery the old religion , and repute them for the auncient Catholikes : for , we are indeede the true and auncient Catholikes , ( I put my selfe in the number , because God now hath made me a true reformed Catholike , ) and the papists are become flat heretiques , in many points of the true faith , though not apostataes from the whole . For , this Benedict the second could not be made Bishop of Rome , 684. yeeres after Christs sacred aduent , without the Emperours letters Patents : so then ▪ the Emperours had the soueraignty ouer the Bishops of Rome , for the space almost of seuen hundren yeeres after Christ , & so long the Popes acknowledged the Emperours for their soueraigne Lords , as without whose letters Patents they could haue no iurisdiction in the Church . I adde as consectary hereunto , that as in ciuill causes many are debarred from their lawfull inheritance , through the violent dealing of mighty men , euen so we , the true reformed Catholikes , haue beene many yeeres excluded from the free vse of our owne Church and Sacraments , by the force , violence , and tyrannie , of the blood-thirsty Romish Bishops , and partly by remissenes of sundry Emperours , who vpon a blind zeale not grounded vpon Gods word , yeelded vp their soueraigne rights vnto them : and as temporal men are in time restored to their auncient right , by zealous and godly Magistrates : euen so were we and are we ( God make vs thankefull for it ) by the goodnesse of God and most Christian Princes , ( King Henry the eight , King Edward the sixt , Queene Elizabeth , and King IAMES our most gratious soueraigne now happily regnant ouer vs ) restored to the old Christian , Catholike , and Apostolike religion , and with all Christian freedome placed again in our owne Churches , the spirituall birth-right of our selues and our ancestors . Secondly , thath our Bishops in England are made and consecrated , according to the auncient , Christian , Catholike , Apostolike , and old Roman maner , that is to say , by the letters Patents of the Prince . Thirdly , that the Emperours of Constantinople , for the space of 200. yeares and odde after the dissolution of the Empire in the west , had still the soueraignty ouer the Bishop of Rome : for the west Empire was dissolued in Anno 471 , and Benedict the second obteined of the Emperour Constantine in Anno 684 , that the Bishops of Rome might from thenceforth be chosen , confirmed , and enioy their iurisdiction , without the commandement and letters Patents of the Emperour . Remig. You haue marked well the discourse , and for all that , haue not obserued one point of great consequence . Theophilus . What is that I beseech you heartily ? Remig. The late Popes or Bishops of Rome , tel vs , that Constantine the great , at his departure from Rome to Constantinople , gaue the Bishop of Rome and his successors his crowne and all his royall dignitie , both in the Citie of Rome , and in Italie , and in all the west parts : which goodly story inuented for the Popes aduancement , we sée by the constant verdit of these foure learned Papists , to be nothing else indéede but a lying fable : for the the Bishops of Rome were stil subiect to the Emperors , & receiued their authoritie and iurisdiction by their letters patents aboue 340. yeares , euen vntill Benedict the second : to which I adde , that manie of the popish Cannons are of as good credit as Esops fables . Remig. This is a point of great consequence , which I should neuer haue espied , but by your relation . Theoph. I would wish you likewise to obserue , that the Emperours , Constantinus , Iustinianus , and others , yéelding vp their soueraigne rights to the Bishops of Rome vpon a fond zeale without knowledge , opened the window to all antichristian tyrannie : for in short time after , the Romish Bishops became so arrogant and Lordly , that they tooke vpon them to dispose Royall scepters , and to translate them to their pleasures . Theoph. It is a memorable obseruation , I shall keep it in remembrance : but let me still reason for the Papists , as if I were one of them ; for when all difficulties are answered , I shall be the stronger in the truth . The Church of God cannot be without Bishops and Priests , as the Apostle recordeth , and your selfe graunteth : but so it is , that when he first reformed the Church , as you terme it , yee neither had any Bishops , nor any Priests of your owne , neither could ye finde any in any other place , but onely with vs and in our Church , when Martin Luther went out from vs : our Church therefore and none but ours , is the true Church of God ; as which onely hath the true succession Apostolicall . Remig. I answere first , that our succession in the Church of England , is farre better then theirs of Rome : for theirs of Rome , ( as we haue heard and séene ) is most doubtfull and vncertain : but ours of England so constant and so assured , as no deniall can be made thereof : I proue it , because in Anno , 596. Gregory the great sent Augustine the Monke , with Iustus , Melitus , and others ( as our approued Cronicles do relate ) to preach the Gospell to the Saxons , who were kindly receiued of King Ethelbert : and he conuerted to the Christian faith , gaue to the same Austen the City of Canterbury : since which time our Church of England is able to proue her perpetuall succession of Bishops , without schisme or interruption at all , albeit the Church of Rome ( as is already proued ) is not able to performe hal●e so much . Secondly , that though the visible Churches were euery where greatly stained and polluted with many grosse errors , superstitions , and abuses , at such time as M. Luther began a Christian reformation : yet for all that , the Bishops and Priests of the popish Churches were still true Bishops for their calling , albeit otherwise very wicked men , and consequently , that our Bishops and Priests though descended , created , and made of such deformed popish Prelats , are true Bishops and Prists indéede . Theoph. If our Bishops and Priests were made of theirs , then must either theirs bee good , or ours as bad as theirs : and so we shall haue no true Bishops at all . Remig. Marke well what I say , that yée may vnderstand the saint . The Philosopher saith , that one may bée a good Citizen , though a bad man : Euen so say I , that though the Papists were wicked men , and the Popish Bishops , that created our Bishops , foully polluted both in life and doctrine : yet were they still true Christians & true Bishops , and consequently true members of the visible Church : for they still professed , held , and maintained the chiefe fundamentall points of religion ; of God of the blessed Trinity , of Christ and his two natures , of his death & passion : of his resurrection and assention : of the generall doome ; & of all the rest comprised in the summe of religion , which we call the Apostles Créede : and therefore , though they grieuously wounded , and in a manner killed themselues , by their errours , corruptions , superstitions , and abuses : yet in regard of the truth which they kept cōstantly , there remained in them some life of Christianity . They wanted legges , and armes , and had their bodies and soules corrupted with many pestilent diseases ; but they did still draw breath , and were not wholy dead . We read in the Apostolicall history , that there were some that beléeued , who being of the heresie of the Pharisées , did still hold the ceremonies of the law , and vrged others to be circumcised . The Prophet Dauid was sore wounded with adultery and murther ; but yet he still continued the child of God : and Peter cursed and sware that hée knew not Christ , who for all that , still beleeued in Christ to the end . Theoph. How can they be both good and bad Bishops at once ? it seemeth to me a thing impossible . Remig. I answere : first , that the same persons may aswell be both good and bad at once , as the same man may be both a father and a sonne at once : and yet do all Logicians grant , that this latter may be effected with all facility . For , one and the same man , may at one and the same time , be both a father in respect of his own child , & a sonne in respect of his father , who is Grandfather to the sayd child . Secondly , that there is as great disparity betwéene a true Bishop and a good Bishop , as there is betwéene a true man and a good man : but as he is a true man , that hath the nature of a true man , how bad soeuer he be in faith , life & conuersation , as Turkes , Iewes , Traitors , Heretickes & Apostataes ; euen so are they true Bishops of the visible Church , who haue their calling , places , & iurisdiction allotted them by the same Church , how bad soeuer they be in other respects . Theoph. Those Popish Bishops that made and created our Bishops and Priests , in the beginning of Queene Elizabeths reigne , ordeyned and consecrated them after another manner , then they are this day , and euer haue beene since that time , ergo , either must their Bishops , or else all our Bishops , the first onely excepted ( who were created after the popish manner ) be false , counterfeit , and no true Bishops indeed . Remig. Neither their Bishops , nor ours , are false and conterfeit , but both true and perfect Bishops , in euery essentiall and necessary poynt pertaining to a Bishop . Theoph. Theirs were made by the authority of the Pope , yours by the authority royall of your gracious Princesse of famous memory . Theirs with Oyle and Chrisme , and many other ceremonies , which yours doe not vse at all . Remig. All the things by you named , are méere extrinsecall and not of the essence and nature of a Bishop , or of a Priest. Theoph. Either must they sinne in vsing Oyle , Chrisme , and other ceremonies , or you in reiecting and contemning the same . Remig. I answere : first , that neither of both doth follow of necessity , the reason is euident : because things méerely adiaphora , and indifferent of their owne nature , may be vsed or not vsed , as it séemeth good to the supreme magistrate . For example sake : whether Kings & Quéenes be annointed at their Coronations , or not , it is méere extrin●ecall to their sacred soueraignty , as who are as perfect Kings before it , as after the same : and consequently , though our Church haue reiected such ceremonies , as vnprofitable or not necessary at the least , yet doth shee not condemne other reformed Churches , which vse and still reteine the same , after the simple vse and manner of the first inst tution thereof ; all leuity , superstition , and opinion of necessity set apart . Secondly , that though our Bishops were consecrated in popish maner with oyle and Chrisme , and by the Popes authority : yet neither did , nor could such externall rites , frustrate and euacuate , their ministeriall dignity : for to vse your Schoole-termes ; many things , are done validè , which are not done , licitè : if the Iesuites and Iesuited papists deny this , they must condemne many of their Popes , as it is already proued . Thirdly , that the abolishing of néedles ceremonies , superstitiously abused , can no wayes preiu●ice the lawfull and true calling of our Bishops . Theoph. All Bishops and Priests made by them , are receiued as true Bishops of you ; but Bishops and Priests made by you , are but meere Lay-men with them ; which seemeth an euident argument , that true Bishopes are onely made by the authority of the Pope . Remig. I answere : first , that the authority of the Bishop of Rome , is but like the authority of other Patriarkes ; as it was defined by the first famous generall Councell vnder Constantine the great . Secondly , that the famous generall Councell of Constantinople ( which was celebrated in Anno 681. ) granted the Bishope of Constantinople equall priuiledges with the Bishop of Rome , and to excell in all Ecclesiasticall affaires as the Bishop of Rome ; saue onely that the chief Patriarchall seat was reserued to him for order-sake and peaceable gouernement of the Church . For as Rome was the chiefe seate of the Emperour , and therefore called Caput mundi ; so was the Bishop there for the honor & dignity of the Empire , ( to which all the world paid tribute in the daies of Augustus Caesar ) reputed the chéefest Bishop of the visible Church . Thirdly , that the Bishop of Romes authority , was so farre from being superiour to the Emperours ( who was euer called the Emperour of Rome ) that no Bishop there for the space of 684. yeares , could haue and enioy any iurisdiction , vnlesse the same Bishop were confirmed by the letters pattents of the Emperour . This point of doctrine ( which is of great consequence ) is already proued ; and that , euen by the testimony of many learned and famous Papists . Fourthly , that neither the Popes authority , neither Oyle nor Crisme , nor any other Popish ceremony , either is or can be any essentiall part of the Ecclesiastical ministery , and consequently , that the Papist must néedes be condemned , either of too too grosse ignorance , or else of extreame malice , whilest they reiect our Ministers , and repute them méere Lay-men : and that for the want of a few curious and vnprofitable ceremonies , which are not onely meere extrinsecal to the function , but withall superstitiously abused euery where . Fifthly , that the Papists condemne themselues in their owne practicall proceedings , whiles they admit our Sacrament of Baptisme by our Ministers administred , and withall reiect as méere Lay-men our Ministers of the same . For as they supply the accedentall ceremonies in the one , so may they do also with as great reason in the other . Wherefore I conclude , that as our Church sheweth both charity and wisedome , in admitting their Bishops and Priests , so doth their Church shew both malice and ignorance , in refusing ours . And that is all indéed , that truly can be inferred of their senslles and péeuish refusall ; albeit many silly simply seduced papists , neither doe nor can so conceiue the matter . This my answere is yet confirmed by another Popish practicall vsage . They reiect our Ministers , because they want their popish beggerly ceremonies : and for all that ▪ they grant their owne Ministers to be true Priests still , euen after they haue degraded them , and taken all their ceremonies from them . Marke well , what I shall relate , for it is a wonderment of the new world . The Papists tell vs ( and it is a speciall article of late popish faith ) that if a popish Priest come into a great market place , where there is great store of wheate-bread , though a thousand or moe loaues in number , and then , and there looking on the same bread , shall pronounce these words ( hoc est corpus meum , this is my body ) with intention to consecrate the same : then forthwith euery loafe of the sayd wheat-bread , is made Christs body , and per concomitantiam as their Schooles terme it ) God almighty ; so as the people are bound by popish faith and lawes to adore the same loaues , euery loafe as the sonne of the euerliuing God : trial here of was once made a Rome as my self being in Rome , heard from the mouth of a Iesuite . For , as the Iesuite reported to me ( and I haue reason to credite him in such a case and cause ) a Priest being degraded , and designed to dye for his homely qualities , as he passed in the stréete by a bakers shop , beheld a great quantity of wheat-bread , and recited these words ( hoc est corpus meum ) and then told the people that he had cōsecrated the same bread ; so desiring once to be auenged of the Pope , and his godlesse Popelings : Wherupon consultation was had out of hand among the learned there , and sentence resolutely ●●en by the Pope , that euery loafe was God almighty . After which sentence so clearkely pronounced , the bread was carryed away with great solemnity , and such reuerence and adoration exhibited to the same , as was due to the sonne of the euerliuing God. Now , if Popish Priests can this doe , euen after their annointing and greasing taken from them : yea , after their deare Pope hath degraded , and after his best maner vnpriested them , they haue no reason , doubtlesse to say , that our Bishops cannot performe the function of true Bishops , séeing our Bishoppes are consecrated of popish truly made Bishoppes , though without Popish vnprofitable and superstitiously abused ceremonies . This resolution is soundly deduced out of the very bowels of Popish faith and religion . Theoph. What ? was not that religion popish , which your nation receiued at their first conuersion from Paganisme ? did not Pope Gregory affect their conuersion , by sending Augustine , Melitus ●ustus , and others into England ? how then can yee for shame ( ●ay our Popes , Cardinals and Iesuites ) deny that faith & religion which your natiue country embraced and beleeued , at your first receiuing of the Christian faith ? how can yee contemne and condemne those Popes , who bestowed such inestimable and precious treasures vpon your country ? Would to God I could soundly answere this reason . Remig. Listen well to my discourse , and you shall ( God willing ) be able to confute it with all facility : this is the answere . First that our nation first receiued the faith , i● the time of Vespasian Emperour of Rome , about 70● yeeres after Christs sacred Incarnation , by the preaching of Christs holy Apostle Symon Zelotes . Secondly that if it be true which Freculphus writeth , the Brutans had receiued the faith of Christ about the yéere 6● . by the preaching of those twelue which Philip the Apostle sent into this land whereof Ioseph of Aramath●a was the chiefe . Thirdly that about the yéere 1●9 . Elutherius then Bishop of Rome at the request of King Lucius the sonne of Co●lis , sent Faganus and Deruuianus into Britaine to baptise the said King and his people , and to instruct them in the faith of Christ. Fourthly , that séeing the Brutanes had béene subiects and tributaries to the Romans , aboue 600. yéeres , it is no rare thing , that Gregory the chiefe Bishop of the Romans , should send preachers into England with the good liking of Ethelbert then King of Kent : for it is euery Christians duty , to doe what in him lieth in such a case . Fifthly , that the name Pope is a Gréeke word , which signifieth father , and in the auncient Church was common to other Bishops with the Bishops of Rome , which you may finde proued at large , in a little booke intituled the triall of the new religion Sixthly , that in the time of this Gregory , and long after , the faith and doctrine of the Church of Rome , was in good case , though in some part steined with some corruptions : neither is it blame worthy , either in Bishop Gregory , that sent it , or in King Ethelbert that receiued it , that our nation had then the Church seruice in the Latin tongue , for ( as the prouerbe saith : necessity hath no law ) besides that the Roman language was then in the Latin tongue , ( and so to them their vulgar tongue ) and they altogether ignorant of the language of our nation : for of old time , ( as Nicholaus Lyranus that learned popish Frier telleth vs ) euery Church had diuine seruice in her mother and vulgar tongue : of which subiect I haue written at large , in the suruey of popery : and no maruell , if our Church receiuing the Church seruice in the Latin tongue , ( though vpon necessity , for that the Romans were ignorant of the Saxons language , ) did a long time reteine the same : for , though it were a fault , ( comparatiuely a small one ) would to God our Church had neuer béene steined with greater corruptions : one thousand yéere are fully expired , since Gregory was the Bishop of Rome : since which time , most intollerable abuses , superstitions , errors , and flat heresies haue crept into the Church of Rome , which is all that our Church hath abolished , still constantly reteining as pure and inuiolable the old Roman faith and religion . Theoph. You told me that the visible Church both may erre , and , de facto , hath erred : and the same ( as you haue soundly proued by the testimonies of best approued popish writers ) may fitly and truly be verified in many late Bishops of Rome : but how any Church can be inuisible , ( which is the Church , say you , that cannot erre ) I doe not yet vnderstand ▪ I pray you take some paine , for my better instruction in that behalfe . Remig. True it is that euery particular Chuch is visible in it selfe , for all men , women , and children , ( euery one in his corporall consistence ) are visible , as experience teacheth vs : and for all that , this is a true and most constant position , that that Church which cannot erre , inuisible : for the true a●d exact knowledge whereof , you must distinguish in man two things : his externall corporeity or corporall consistence , and his internall election in Christ Iesus . Man considered the former way is visible indéed , euery child can discypher the case but the latter way he is inuisible , and knowne onely vnto God , or to those to whom he reuealeth it . Theoph. I seeme now to haue a glimmering of the question , though no perfect insight into the same . I pray you vnfold the case distinctly , and declare it by some familiar examples , if it may be . Remig. At such time as the Prophet Elias made his complaint in Santaria , that he onely was left alone an Oracle from heauen answered him in this maner : I haue reserued to my selfe seuen thousand men ; which haue not bowed the knée to Baal . By which diuine Oracle it is euident , y● seuen thousand persons were inuisible to Elias , and all the same visible in themselues , at one and y● same time ▪ Do yée now vnderstand the case ? Theoph. I seeme to conceiue it , by vertue of your former distinction . They were visible as men , but inuisible as the children of God : for that Elias knew not their faith and election in Iesus Christ. Remig. You conceiue it aright , Iudas Iscariot as he was a man , was visible both to the rest of the Apostles , and to others ; who for all that , as he was a traytor , was visible to God alone : for which cause the Apostles were astonished , when they heard that one of them should betray Christ their Lord and Maister . The Apostle confirmeth the same , when he saith , the foundation of God remaineth sure , and hath this seale , the Lord knoweth who are his : the faith and conscience of the elect to God-ward , is vnknowne to men , and so to them they are inuisible , though visible in their owne persons . Theoph. I must needes yeeld to this ▪ as to a manifest truth : but are not all members of the which Church beleeue in Christ , and hold the catholike faith , as we do ? Remig. All that professe externally the Catholike faith , are members of the visible Church , and must be reputed for such , so long as they are not cut off from the Church , by the iust censure of excommunication . But Gods elect onely are the true Church , that is to say , that mysticall body , whereof Christ Iesus is the mysticall head , Gods elect onely are that Church , to which Christ promised his inuisible presence to the worlds end . Gods elect only are that Church , which is the pillar of truth ▪ and cannot erre . But the reprobates neither are nor can bee that mysticall body , whereof Christ is the head : for our Lord Iesus is so farre from being their head , that he hateth all those that worke wickednesse , and wil put them from him with a sharp ve vobis , at the generall doome . Gods elect onely are the bride betrothed to our Lord Iesus the Bride-grome , betwéene whom there is such an inseparable vnion , as no power create vpon earth , or in heauen , is able to dissolue the same . Theoph. God reward you for your great paines , which you haue taken herein for his names sake , and my good , you haue so resolued me in these most intricate difficulties of christian religion , that I stand at vtter defiance with the late start-vp Romish faith and doctrine , highly reuerencing the old Roman religion , and so much of late Romish faith and doctrine , as is consonant and agreeable to the same . But for all this , the Papists seeme to haue strong reasons for their vnwritten traditions , which indeede are so strong as my selfe know not how to answere them . Remig. Doubt nothing in this behalfe : God of his mercy will illustrate your vnderstanding in this difficulty , as he hath done already in the rest : but for this subiect , I haue written so largely thereof in two seuerall bookes , ( viz. the downe fall of Popery , and the Iesuits Antepast ) that I am altogether vnwilling to handle the same a fresh . Theoph. I haue read both those bookes , & they doe content me exceedingly : howbeit , some obiections may yet be made against the doctrine there deliuered , which my selfe am not able to confute : I therefore would humbly intreate your paines , not for a new discourse thereof , ( which I hold needlesse ) but for a fuller and plainer explication of some especiall doubts , wherewith our learned papists troubleme . Remig. Propound them in Gods name , by whose holy and powerfull assistance , I trust to returne them to the Popes vtter shame , to the and euerlasting confusion of al Iesuited papists , that shall obstinately beléeue or defend the same . CHAP. 5. Of Popish vnwritten traditions . Theophilus . I will still by your fauour argue as a papist on the behalfe of the papists , that so I may more cleerely haue a soūd insight into the truth : you Protestants ( for so we vse to terme you , ) beare vs in hand , that the scripture or written word of God conteineth all things necessary for mans saluation : but our learned and religious Cardinall Bellarminus assureth vs , that the truth is farre otherwise , and that many things necessary for mens saluation , are onely knowen and receiued by tradition : and what he writeth , is the Popes ownefaith , and consequently the faith of the whole Church : for he dedicated his bookes to the Popes holynesse , who highly commended and approued them , that he made him Cardinall ( though before but a poore Fryer ) for his paines . Remig. I answere first , that I know your Cardinall right well , and willingly acknowledge him to be learned , as also religious and ●ealous after the manner of his sect , but in such sort as Paul was before his conuersion . Secondly , that your Cardinal doth often acknowledge the truth vnawares against himselfe , as doe your other Iesuits : one onely assertion I will now cite , out of the Iesuite S. R. ( Robert Parsons is the man ) in his pretensed answere to the downefall of popery : these are his expresse words ; where if by diuina eloquia , we vnderstand holy writ , ( as Bell translateth and Saint Austen séemeth to meane ) me thinkes he plainely auoucheth , that God hath procured euery thing to be cléerely written , which to know is necessary to euery mans saluation : the same teaceth Saint Syril , saying , not all things which our Lord did , are written , but what the writers déemed sufficient , as well for manners , as for doctrine , that by right faith and works , we may attaine to the Kingdome of Heauen : and Saint Chrisostome , what things soeuer are necessary , are manifest out of scripture : this is our Iesuites owne tale , in the best manner he can vtter it , whiles he bestirreth himselfe more then a little , to answere my booke ( the downefall of popery ) out of whose confession and frée graunt , ( such is the force of truth ) I obserue these memorable and golden lessons . First , that euery thing necessary for euery mans saluation , is contained in the holy scriptures . Secondly , ( and this is a thing to be admired , comming from a papists mouth ) that euery point necessary for saluation , is plainely and cléerely set downe in holy writ . Thirdly , that God himselfe appointed all necessary things to be cléerely written . Fourthly , that Saint Augustine , Saint Chrisostome , and Saint Cyrill , are of mine opinion . Fiftly , that the Iesuite vnawares iustifieth that doctrine , which he puposely laboureth to ouerthrow : for , as our Lord Iesus said to Saul , it is hard for him to kicke against prickes . Theoph. The Iesuite S. R. ( when you rightly name Parsons , ) graunteth all things to be written which are necessary for saluation but not which are necessary for faith and doctrine : these are his owne and expresse words : for surely , the Prophets and Euangelists writing their doctrine for our better remembrance , would omit no one point which was necessary to be actually knowne of euery one especially , seeing they haue written many things , which are not so necessary : and this conclusion teacheth Saint Austen , when he saith , that those things are written which seemeth sufficient for the saluation of the faithfull : where I note ( saith S. R. ) that he said not , which seemeth sufficient to Christian faith , but which seemed sufficient to saluation : because fewer points suffice to saluation , then the Christian faith containeth , thus writeth the Iesuite in flat termes , freely graunting the scripture to containe all things necessary for saluation , but not all things necessary for faith and doctrine . Remig. I answere : first , that the Iesuite granteth as much as I desire , when he graunteth the holy scripture to containe all things necessary for our saluation : for doubtlesse , if all things necessary for saluation , be written in the scripture , it followeth of necessity , that no vnwritten tradition is necessary for the same . Secondly , that noting is or can be necessary for the Christian faith , but the same is also necessary for saluation : for otherwise it would follow , ( which no Christian may anouch ) that a man may be saued without the Christian faith : but S. Athanasius in that créede or summary of faith , ( which the Church of Rome receiueth and highly reuerenceth , ) affirmeth resolutely , that whosoeuer beleeueth not stédfastly euery iote of the Christian faith , shall perish euerlastingly . Thirdly , that whosoeuer hath the holy scripture , hath all things necessary for his saluation . Fourthly , that séeing the Christian faith by popish doctrine , contaïneth many points not necessary for saluation , it followeth of necessity , that many points of popish , so supposed Christian faith , are néedlesse in very déede , and for that respect with some other , our Church of noble England hath abolished the same with spéede : for we are the true reformed Catholikes , who hold constantly the old Roman religion in euery point : but the late start-vp Romish faith is fully replenished , with curious sophistications , friuolous di●●●●●ns , vain inuentions , counterfeit myracles , grosse errors , palpables her●stes , intollerable superstitions , méere foolishnesse , and flat leasings . Theoph. It is nowhere siad in scripture , ( saith the Iesuite S. R. ) that all the bookes , chapters , verses , and sentences which in the Bible are admitted for Canonicall , are truly Canonicall and Gods pure word , without the mixture of mans word : and yet is this a point of Christian faith , yea , hereupon depend all the articles which we gather out of the scripture : this is that inuincible Bulwarke , ( saith Parsons ) which no Protestant can euer batter downe while the world shall endure . Remig. I answere : first , that by our Iesuits doctrine ( as we haue head ) if may be a point of Christian faith , and yet not necessary to saluation , and consequently , if this point were not knowne by the scriptures , yet might the scripture containe all things néedefull to saluation . Secōdly that y● holy scripture sheweth itself to be Canical , and the pure word of God : for , as holy Dauid saith , it is a Lanterne to our féete and a light to our pathes , as Saint Peter saith , it is a light that shineth in the darke : and S. Paul saith . Gods word is liuely , and mighty in operation , and sharper then any two edged sword : it is not incke and paper , or a bare and dead Letter , but quicke and powerable , and sheweth it selfe as light to the children of light . For , ( as the same Apostle telleth vs ) if Christs Gospell be hid , it is hid in them that perish , in whom the God of this world hath blinded the mindes of them which beleue not , lest the light of Christs glorious Gospell should shine vnto them : yea , the selfe same Apostle saith , that the spirituall man iudgeth all things . Saint Iohn also saith , that the v●ction which Gods children haue receiued , teacheth them all things . And what néede many words ? Christ himselfe assureth vs , that his shéepe heare hi● voy●● ▪ and that they follow him , because they know his voyce ▪ he addeth , that they will not follow a straunger , and he yéeldeth this reason there●● , because they know not the voyce of straungers : this is confirmed by an old receiued Theologicall maxime , viz , that when wee pray , we speake to God , but when we read , or heare the holy scripture redde , then God speaketh to vs : but certes , when God speaketh to vs , if we be his , wee will heare him , if we be his shéepe we will know his voyce and follow him . Thirdly , that euery part of the new Testament , doth affirme it selfe to be the pure word of God : for it saith , the holy Gospel of Iesus Christ , according to Matthew Marke , Luke and Iohn : the Actes of the holy Apostles , written by Luke the Euangelist : the Epistle of the Apostle Paul , to the Romans , Corinthians , Galatians , Ephesians , Philippians , Colossians , Thessaloniti●ns , Timotheus , Titus and Philemon : the Epistle of Peter Iames , Iude , and Iohn , the seruants of Iesus Christ : the reuelation of Iesus Christ , which God gaue vnto Iohn his seruant by his holy Angell . Fourthly , that the new Testament giueth testimony to the old , and the old to the new , in the swéete harmony of diuine truth : for Christ himselfe te●l●th vs , that all must come to passe which are written of him , in the law , in the Prophets , and in the Psalmes : and for this end was it , that Abraham answered the rich glutton in these words ; they haue Moses and the Prophets , let them heare them : as if he had said , now the law is not studied now the Prophets are contemned , and now God is not heard speaking in his holy word : some would haue Angels come downe from heauen , some desire myracles , others the dead to rise againe : howbeit to heare Moses and the Prophetes ( which is to read the scriptured , for Moses and the Prophets were dead many hundred yéeces afore ) is the true and onely way to attaine eternall life : this reason striketh dead , as which proueth the scripture of the old Testament to be Canonicall , and the pure word of God : and this reason is confirmed by Saint Paul , when he telleth vs , that he was put apart to preach the Gospel of God which afore was promised by his Prophets in the holy scriptures : and it is further confirmed , because the same Apostle saith in an other place , that he taught nothing , but which Moses and the Prophets had foretold should come to passe . Fifthly , that these holy writings of Moses and the Prophetes , were common among the Iewes in Christs tune , and yet did Christ neuer once reproue the Iewes for any corruption therein , or charge them with changing , adding , or taking away of any one iote or title either of the law or of y● Prophets : for our mercifull and powerable God , who caused Balaam to blesse when he entred to curse : who , when Saul was a cruell persecuter , blasphemer , and rauening Woolfe , made him with one word as méeke as a Lambe : who shut vp the Sea with doores and staied her proud waues , & appointed her boūds whither she should come , but no further : enforced y● aduersaries of the truth ( the Iewes I meane ) to preserue the holy scriptures of the old Testament inuiolable and pure from all corruption , and not to adde any thing thereto , or take ought therefrom , neither to prophane the same , with the least mixture of mans word : our Lord Iesus assured vs hereof , when he constantly pronounced , that it was more easie for Heauen and Earth to passe away , then that one title of the law should fall : thus you see , or may sée , I wéent , that the popish inuincible bulwarke is battered downe , & made euen with the ground : for none but God alone , can infallibly foretell things to come . Theoph. Your reasons are vnanswerable in my iudgement , and your manner of disputation so forcible , as it is able fully to perswade any indifferent reader . Howbeit , I do not yet see how the holy scripture doth proue it selfe canonical : for if that were possible to be proued , not onely our Iesuite Pars●as , but the Pope , his Cardinals , and all his Iesuited Popelings should be confounded euerlastingly . Remig. I haue proued out of Christs own words , that whatsoeuer is contained in the law of Moses , in the bookes of the Prophets , & in ▪ the Psalmes , that same must néeds be true , and come to passe : and consequently , whatsoeuer scripture must néedes come to passe , and cannot but bee true , that Scripture doubtles is Cannonicall , and y● pure word of God : for onely Gods prediction of future things is infallible . Theoph. Doe not many godly people , especially the zealous Preachers of Gods word , vtter many speeches which must needs come to passe , and cannot but be true ? Remig. I answere with this distinction , that words vttered by men , may be considered two waies . First , as the words of pure man. Secondly , as Gods words pronounced by pure man. The words vttered by man the second way , must néedes come to passe , and cannot but bee true : and therefore do we receiue and reuerence , as the pure word of God , and Canonicall scripture , all the law giuen by Moses , as also all the rest of the old and new testament , this day truly acknowledged for Canonical and holy writ : but words vttered by man the first way , are fallible , and may deceiue both the speaker and the hearer . For as Gods Prophet telleth vs , all men are lyars : another Prophet accurseth him y● putteth his trust in man : another Prophet was deuoured of a Lion , for y● he gane credit , & relyed vpon the feined reuelation of an old Prophet in Bethel : for none can infallibly foretell things to come , except one that is Almighty and all-sufficient of himselfe . Theoph. Men tell vs , that the sunne shall rise at such an houre , and go downe at such an houre : as also , that the Moone shall shine at such a time , be darke at such a time , and so in sundry other things : All which , though foretold by man , cannot but be true and come to passe . Semblably may we say , that though the predictions recounted in the law and the Prophets , must needes come to passe , and cannot but bee true , yet may they be the words of pure man , and not canonicall Scripture . Theoph. You deceiue your selfe in your owne allegations : for neither the rising and setting of the sunne , nor yet the light and darknesse of the moone , must néedes come to passe , as Astronomers do affirme : for God , all sufficient , the author thereof , can stay or change their naturall courses at his holy will and pleasure . Ioshua in the power of God commanded the sunne to stay in Gibeon , & the moone in the valley of A●alon ; and it came to passe accordingly . The sunne , at the request of good King Ezechias , went backward ten degrées . In the time of Christs most bitter and sacred passion , darknesse was ouer all the land of Chanaan , from the sixth houre vntill the ninth , that is to say , by Theological supputation , from twelue a clock till thrée in the afternoone : and yet did Christ suffer when the moone was at the full , and about noone or mid-day . For , he was crucified ( oh cruell Iewes ) euen when they kept their feast of the Passeouer , which was , and must néedes be done in the full moone , according to the prescript of the law . Theoph. Your discourse yeeldeth great solace to mine heart . I see it as cleerly as the noone day , that all creatures are subiect to God their maker , that euery word of man is fallible , and that onely Gods will is Canonicall , and cannot but be true . But Christ addeth a limitation and restrictiō to his words , which troubleth me more then a little . He saith not simply and absolutely , that all things written in the Law , the Prophets , and the Psalmes , must be fulfilled , but that all things which are there written of him , must of necessity come to passe . Remig. Though Christ vse a restriction , by reason of his occasioned particular application , yet is his argument generall , as which is drawne from the excellencie & infallibility of holy writ : as if he had said , whatsoeuer is written in the law of Moses , in the Prophets and in the Psalmes , that same must néedes come to passe , and cannot but be true , and consequently , whatsoeuer is there spoken of me , that must néeds come to passe : neither is this mine , but Christs owne exposition , I assure you . Theoph. If it bee possible to proue this , the Papists may sing this dolefull song , The Pope from their royall Scepters , hath many Kings put downe , but now his necke is broken , and the Romish faith quite ouerthrowne . Remig. It is not onely possible , but a thing very easie . Marke well , and vnderstand my discourse aright . Our Sauiour in the same chapter , reproueth his Disciples as they went to Emmaus , condemning them of folly and infidelity , for that they did not simply and generally beléeue all that the Prophets had spoken . Oh fooles ( saith Christ ) and slow of heart , to beléeue all that the Prophets haue spoken . Againe , another text saith that he began at Moses , and at all the Prophets , & interpreted vnto them in all the Scriptures , the things which were written of him . This is that interpretation which the holy Ghost affoordeth vs. Out of which , I obserue these memorable docoments . First , that Christ spake absolutely and simply without any restriction at all , of all things written in the Law , the Prophets and the Psalmes . Secondly , that Christ interpreted in all the Scriptures the things that were written of him . Thirdly , that all the Scriptures of the Prophets , of Moses , and of the Psalmes , are true , and the Canonicall rule of our faith . Theoph. Christ indeed speaketh simply and generally of the Prophets ; but he neither nameth Moses , nor the booke of Psalmes . Remig. I answere : first , that Christs speech is Synecdochicall , very usual and frequent in the holy Scriptures , it compriseth the whole in the part thereof . Secondly , that Christ nameth both Moses and all the rest of the old Testament : For after he had reproued his Apostles for not beléeuing all things in the Prophets , the text saith plainely in the words following , that Christ began at Moses , and interpreted in all the Scriptures : and a little after , in the selfe same chapter , he maketh mention both of Moses , of the Prophets , and of the Psalmes : and in the verse then immediately following it is sayd , that Christ opened their vnderstanding , that they might vnderstand the Scriptures : so that Christ vndoubtedly meaneth all the scriptures of the old Testament , when synecdochically he meaneth onely the Prophets : which thing I shall yet proue by another scripture more plaine then all the rest . Do not thinke that I will accuse you to my father , there is one that accuseth you , euen Moses in whom yée trust . For had yée beléeued Moses , yée would haue beléeued me , for he wrot of me : but if yée beleeue not his writings , how shall yee beléeue my words ? These are the very words of our Lord and Maister Christ : out of which I gather these comfortable lessons . First , that the writings of Moses accuse the reprobate , and consequently , that they are Canonicall Scripture : for otherwise , neither their condemnation , nor their accusation should be of force . Secondly , that to beléeue Moses ( marke these words ) is to beléeue Christ himselfe . Thirdly , that not to beleeue the writings of Moses , is not to beléeue Christs words , and consequently , that the writings of Moses are Canonicall Scripture , and the pure word of God. Theoph. You resolue me so soundly in euery point , that I can no way in truth withstand your doctrine . Howbeit , me thinke I heare the Iesuite Parsons whispering in the eares of his silly Disciples , that there is no text from the first of Genesis , to the last of the Apocalips , which saith , that all the Bookes , Chapters , Verses , and Sentences , which in the Bible are admitted for Canonical , are truly Canonical , & Gods pure word , without the mixture of mans words : if possibly you be able to confute this obiection , they haue no more to say . Remig. Answere me awhile to my demaundes , and you shall easily finde out the confutation , he that saith generally without restriction at all , that all men are lyars , doth he not affirme old men and yong , rich and poore , learned and vnlearned , and euery man of what state or calling soeuer he be , to be a lyar ? Theoph. He so affirmeth , it cannot be denied . Remig. Doth not he , who saith that all things in S. Paules Epistles , are the pure word of God , affirme euery Chapter , euery verse , and euery sentence therein contained , to be the pure word of God ? Theoph. It is most true , it cannot be gainesaid . Remig. Doth not he affirme euery Booke , euery Chapter , euery verse , and euery sentence of the Propheticall writings , to be y● true & the pure word of God , who saith , that al things which the Prophets haue written are true , and the pure word of God ? an he deny any particular , that granteth all ? Theoph. He cannot doubtles : do it for he that granteth the whole must perforce grāt euery part of the whole euen as he that granteth God to haue made all things , must of necessity grant him to haue made euery particular thing , whatsoeuer hath any essence or beeing in the whole world . Remig. You haue granted enough , ( though no more then the truth ) for the full refutation of our Frier Iesuite . I haue proned ( as ye know ) out of the expresse Scripture of the new Testament , that all things written in the law of Moses , in the bookes of the Prophets , & in the Psalmes ( in which thrée , as also somtime in the law & the Prophets , and other sometime in the law onely , all the old Testament is comprised ) are the pure word of God , and consequently the Canonicall scripture : For if we beléeue not the bookes of Moses , neither will we beléeue Christs owne words , as it is already proued . Theoph. But our sesuite perhaps will say , that there are sundry Canonicall bookes in the old Testament , besides these which you haue named . Remig. What the Iesuiticall Fryer Parsons will say , small account is to be made : for , ( as his deare brethren by popish profession haue written of him ) he is a monster of mankind , a notorious lyar , the wickedest man vpon the earth , begotten of some● Incubus , and depending vpon the Deuill of hell : this and much more of like homely qualities , the secular Priests haue confessed of Parsons that vnfortunate Rector of the English Colledge in Rome : and this they haue done in their printed bookes lately published to the view of the whole world : this honest man Parsons , hath lately published the pretensed answere to the Downefall of Popery : but his backe is so pittifully broken with the said Downefall , ( alas poore Fryer , I am sory for thy heauinesse ) that his neighbours thinke he cannot liue any while : Yet I hope ( which is my smal comfort in such a distressed case ) that the Popish secular Priests will sing a ioyfull dirge ( if not a blacke sanctus ) for his soule . But woe is me , that my natiue countrey-men at Rome , haue such a gouernour set ouer them : now to your obiection out of Parsons , I answere thus . First , that y● scripture saith plainely , that Christ interpreted all the scriptures which spake of him , and consequently all the Canonicall bookes of the old Testament , for no booke Canonicall can be named , which maketh not some mention of our Lord Iesus . Secondly , that both our sauiour , his Apostles , and all the auncient fathers , did euer comprise all the old Testament ▪ in the lawe the Prophetes , and the Psalmes , it cannot be denied . Theoph. The scripture saith not , that Christ interpreted all the scriptures that spake of him , but that he interpreted out of them , those things which they spake of him . Remig. I answer● : first , that Christ interpreted Gods word , but not the word of man. Secondly , that in interpreting that which was of him else , he did in effect interprete the whole . Thirdly , that in interpreting and pe● consequens , approuing those things which were of and concerning himselfe , he did indéede approue , commend , and authorise the whole : for ▪ as Saint Austen and other holy fathers tell vs , and the Iesuite doth yéeld thereto , if any part of the holy scripture should be false , we could haue no certainety of the rest , much lesse could we ground our faith vpon them . Theoph. You haue soundly proued the scripture of the old Testament to be Canonicall , euen by the expresse words of the new Testament : but what text of scripture can proue the new Testament to be Canonicall , and the pure word of God without the mixture of mans word ? is this possible to be done ? Remig. It is not onely possible , but very easie to be done : I proue it . First , because the Gospell ( which is the whole new Testament ) is conteined in the old Testament , for Saint Paul plainely testifieth , that he was set apart to preach the Gospell of God , which he afore had promised by his Prophets in the holy scriptures . Secondly , because the same Apostle constantly auouched to the Elders of Ephesus , that he had shewed to them all the councell of God. Thirdly , because the selfe same Apostle affirmeth in an other place , that he taught nothing but the law of Moses and the Prophets : neuerthelesse ( saith he ) I obtained helpe of God , and continue vnto this day , witnessing both to small and to great , saying none other thing , then those which the Prophets & Moses did say should come to passe . Fourthly , because Saint Paul testifieth to yonge Timothy , that he kn●w the holy scriptures of a childe , which are able to make him wise vnto saluation , through the faith which is in Christ Iesus . By these testimonies and authorities , two things are ●léered : the one , that all the bookes of the old testament deliuered by Moses to the Iewes , are Canonicall and the pure word of God , able to make vs wise vnto saluation : the other , that all Saint Pauls doctrine , and consequently of the other Apostles , ( for he taught all the councell of God , which was all the doctrine of all the rest in substance ) was conteined in Moses and the Prophets : and this is confirmed by the Apostles words to King Agrippa , which are these : O King Agrippa , beléeuest thou the Prophes ? I know that thou beleuest : Lo , Saint Paul knew that Agrippa beléeued the law and the Prophetes , and commendeth him for the same : I therefore conclude , that the holy scripture it selfe doth proue it selfe to be Canonicall , and the pure word of God. Theoph. The Papists say , that we receiued both the old and new Testament from them , and not from the Iewes . Remig. I answere : first , that the primitiue and Apostolicall Church receiued the old Testament from the Iewes , and that the Apostles were onely the publishers of the new Testament , not of the old . Secondly , that we beleue the old Testament to be Canonicall scripture , neither for the testimony of the Iewes , ( though they deliuered it , and were the publishers thereof ▪ ) neither yet for the authority of the Church of Rome , or of any other Church in the Christian world . Thirdly , that we beléeued it to be the pure word of God , and Canonicall scripture , because Christ so pronounced of it , long before the Apostles were confirmed in the truth . Fourthly , that the Pope , his Iesuites , and Iesuited Popelings , doe enforce●●● to a●●●● 〈◊〉 the holy Bible , that which is in very many places the pure word of man. Theoph. How is this possible ? haue not the Papists the holy Bible ? Remig. The old Testament , which is the pure word of God , is in the Hebrew tongue , and the new in Gréek ▪ but the late popish Councell of Trent ( which the Iesuits and all Iesuited Papists haue admitted ) commaundeth ●●raitly to vse onely their Latin vulgata editio , which the Apostles did neuer read or sée , much lesse did they authorise it for Canonicall scripture ▪ and the pure word of God : and consequently , albeit they haue both the Hebrew and the Gréeke locked vp in their studies and Libraries : yet for as much as they preferre their owne vulgar Latin translation , ( commonly called Saint Hieromes ) and cruelly bind and tie all di●●nes to ●s● the same in all schooles and pulpits , and no textes , sentences , or allegations to be admitted , saue onely out of the same : it followeth by an ineuitable consequente , and necessary deduction , that their Canonicall so supposed Bible is not Canonicall , but in very déede the word of man : this is confirmed , because the Papists this day violently obtrude for Canonicall , sundry bookes of the old Testament , which are not in the Cannon of the Hebrewes , neither yet deliuered to the Church by Christ or his Apostles . Theoph. I now remember a straunge saying of the Iesuite Parsons , viz , that many parts of the Bible were doubted of long after the death of the Apostles : which argueth to me , that their vnwritten traditions are fallible , and their doctrine new . Remig. The Popes religion Chaugeth euery day , by reason of new reuelations made vnto his Holinesse : but from whence they came , wheather from Heauen or from hell , that cannot I tell , let the rea●er iudge : this I am assured of , that their owne learned maisters cannot agrée about their reuelations : Melchior Canus a learned Popish Bishop affirmeth constantly , that the Church hath no new re●elations in matters of faith : but the Popes minorite Fryer T●telmannus , otherwise a learned man indéede , telleth vs an othertale , viz. that many mysteries of diuine truth , are daily reuealed to the Church , euery day more and more : and thus by reason of their Popish feined reuelations , the late Romish faith doth daily encrease aboue mans expectation , and is as like the old Roman religion , as Yorke is like soule Sutton : I will now make an end of this question , referring you for the rest to the Iesuites Antepast , where you may find at large , concerning this subiect , whatsoeuer your heart can desire : but before I end the conference , let me aske you a merry question : what will you say , if ( for a parting blow with the Iesuite Parsons ) I proue out of his owne printed booke , as also out of the Iesuiticall Cardinal Bellarmine , euen in that booke which he dedicated to the Popes holinesse , with which booke he so pleased the Pope , that he made him Cardin●ll for the same , that all the bookes , Chapters , verses , and sentences , which are admitted for Canonicall , are actually proued in holy scriptur to be truly Canonical , & Gods pure word without the mixture of mans worde ? which for all that , is that mighty point of faith , which the said two Iesuites and all Iesuited Papists contend with might and many to be an vnwritten tradition of the Church . Theoph. What will I say ? Is that your question ? I will tell you both what I will say and doe : I will say you haue done that , which to this day was euer thought impossible : and this I promise to cause the same to be written in Marble with golden Letters , and to put the stone in Saint Peters Church at Rome , In Perpetuam rei memoriam . Remig. Be attentiue , and marke well what I deliuer , for I trust by Gods helpe , to proue it most substantially : these are the expresse words of S. R. or of Robert Parsons that Trayterous and brasen faced Iesuite . First conclusion is : all such points of Christian faith , as are necessary to be actually beléeued of euery one , that hath vse of reason though he be neuer so simple , are actually cōteined in scripture , either cléerely , or obscurely : these are Parsons words , I neither adde any thing , chaunge any thing , nor take any thing away : the Iesuite Bellarmine hath these expresse words : These obseruations being marked , I answere , that all those things are written by the Apostles , which are necessary for all men , & which the Apostles preached openly to all the vulgar people , but that all other things are not written : These are the Cardinals words : I cite them most sincerely . I hold it a damnable sinne to bely the Diuel . Out of these testimonies , I gather very plainely , that all things which euery one is bound to beléeue , are actually conteined in the holy scripture : and consequently y● all the bookes , chapters , verses & sentences which are admitted for Canonical , are truly Canonicall & Gods pure word without y● mixture of mans word : which conclusion , for all that , is it that both our Iesuites and all their cursed Iesuited broode doe violently impugne . Theoph. The Papists would seeme to frustrate your conclusion , because they onely beleeue it for the testimony of the Pope , and Church of Rome . Remig. They would gladly séeme indéed to doe many things which they are not able to performe . But the truth is as I haue said : & thus both briefly & pithily I proue the same . Whatsoeuer is necessary for euery Christian , the same is contained in the scriptures of the Apostles : but the knowledge of all the Bookes , Chapters , Uerses , and Sentences , admitted for Canonical to be truly Canonicall , and the pure word of God , is necessary for euery Christian , ergo , the same is conteined in the Scriptures of the Apostles . The conclusion of this argument cannot be denyed , because it is a perfect Syllogisme , in the first figure , and in the third made called Darij . The proposition is confessed both by Cardinall Bellarmine , and by the Iesuite Parsons . You haue heard their expresse words truly alledged , as themselues in printed bookes haue set them downe so then the difficulty ( if there be any at all ) resteth in the assumption , viz. if to know the holy Bible to be Canonicall and the pure word of God , be necessary for euery Christian , which being a fundamentall point of religion , is so cleere and so apparant to euery one , as methinkes it is a néedlesse labour to take in hand to proue the same . But I proue it : first , because the knowledge of the holy Gospel & euery part thereof ▪ is necessary to euery on s saluation . Secondly , because the Papists themselues doe euer vrge the same , as a necessary point of faith and saluation , so often as it séemeth any way to make for their vnwritten traditions . Thirdly , because all the articles of faith deduced out of the sciptures , depend thereupon : for these are the Iesuite S. R. his owne words , yet this is a point of the Christian faith , yea , thereupon depend all the articles we gather out of Scripture . Thus disputeth our Iesuite in his pretensed answere to the Downe-fall of Popery , after he hath bitterly many times denyed ▪ that the holy Scripture doth shew it selfe to be Gods word : but the force of truth is so mighty in operation , the while of malice he striueth against it , he vnawares confoundeth himselfe , and pleadeth for the truth in very déed . Fourthly , because the Iesuite S. R. vrged , and as it were deadly wounded with the sharp pikes of his aduersaries arguments , plainely & resolutly confesseth the doctrine which I defend . In one place hee hath these expresse words : me thinkes he plainely auoucheth ( he speaketh of Saint Austen ) that God hath procured euery thing to be cléerely written , which to know , is necessary for euery mans saluation . In another place hee hath these words : what things soeuer are necessary , are manifest out of scripture . Now sir , what man can thinke our Iesuite to bee in his right wits , that thus woundeth himselfe with his owne weapons ? for he doth not onely grant , that euery thing necessary for euery mans saluation , is manifest in the scripture , but withall , that euery necessary thing is cléerely written in the same : and consequently , he granteth vnaware & against himselfe , either that to beléeue the holy Bible to be the pure word of God , is a trifle , a thing of small moment , and not at all necessary to saluation , which if the Papists doe , they must perforce condemne themselues , and vtterly ouerthrow their Romish faith ; or else , that the same is plainely and cleerely set downe in the holy Scripture ; the cause is cléere , I hope I haue said enough . Theoph. All the world knoweth , old and yong , rich and poore , learned and vnlearned , that to know and beleeue the holy Bible to be Gods word , is so necessary to saluation , as none without it can be saued . It now remaineth for my full satisfaction and resolution in all points of Catholike doctrine in controuersie , that if I know how to answere the Papists concerning one point of doctrine , wherwith they neuer cease to charge you & your profession , I would think my selfe able to answere and confound all Papists in the world , and to perswade all indifferently affected persons , to abhorre and detest late start-vp popery world without end . Remig. Let me know , I pray you heartily , what y● point of doctrine is , wherewith our aduersaries so surcharge vs and our profession , conceale nothing from me , that any way troubleth your conscience : for doubtlesse I am most willing to vndergoe any paines for your instruction in the truth . Theoph. They charge you to hold & teach , that the best liuer among you sinneth in the best act he doth , which seemeth a doctrine so strange & irksome to all godly eares , as my selfe cānot but detest the same : for if we can do nothing but sinne , we must perforce condemne all good workes , all preaching , all teaching , and all holy conuersation . Remig. I wonder that any liuing wilcharge our Church with such vnsauory doctrine . Theoph. Your aduersaries affirme with open mouthes , ( so disgracing you and your profession , as much as in them lieth ) that this is a generall receiued axiome with all your Deuines : Iustus in omni opere bono peceat : The iust man sinneth in euery good worke he doeth ; and that all , euen our best workes are sinne . Remig. My selfe , though most vnworthy of that sacred name , am one among the rest . Howbeit , I am so farre from beléeuing or defending that doctrine , that I vtterly renounce the same , in the sense formerly by you auouched . For the exact examination of which proposition , by them te armed our Maxime or Axiome , let vs dispute the question , pro & contra , as we haue done the rest . CHAP. 6. Of the state of the regenerate , with the particular adiuncts of the same . Remigius . THis proposition , which séemeth to trouble you more then a litle ( the iust man sinneth in euery good work ) may admit a double sense and meaning , viz , a rigorous and a fauourable interpretation . I● we interprete it according to the rigour of the words , the sense must be this : the iust man sinneth , euen in the best worke he doth : which sense I willingly graunt ) is not onely straunge , but with all very irkson●● to all Christian eares : howbeit , if it may finde a fauourable interpretation , the sense and meaning will be this : the iust man sinneth , whiles he doth the best worke he can : which sense is most Christian , sound , Catholike , Apostolicall , and consonant to the holy scriptures . But here ye must marke seriously , that it is one thing to sinne , in doing a good worke , an other thing to s●me while the same good worke is a doing . Iheoph . This your distinction : as it is very subtile , so is it also right iovous & comfortable to mine heart : it affordeth me a kind of glimmering though no ful insight into the question . Remig. He that will exactly know the truth of this question , must ap●ly distinguish the quadruple state of man. First , his state before sinne vntill his fall . Secondly , his state after sinne vntill his regeneration . Thirdly , his state after regeneration vntill his glorification . Fourthly , his state after glorification world without end . In the first state , albeit man sinned indéede , and thereby made both himselfe and his posterity subiect to eternal torment : yet was he so created of God his maker , that he might haue liued without sinne for euer and aye . In the second state , man can doe nothing that good is , but sinne continually . In the third state , man by Gods grace and great mercy is enabled to do good , though not wholly to ●schew sinne , saue onely according to the measure of his regeneration . In the fourth state , man is so confirmed in grace , that he cannot sinne world without end . Which distinction being well marked and remembred , we shall easily vnderstand , that albeit man can neuer be without sinne in this life but adde sinne to sinne continually , yet may he by the grace of regeneration , do good workes , euen while he sinneth mortally . Theoph. It seemeth to mee a thing impossible , that man shall be able to do any good worke while he sinneth damnably ? Remig. It is a generell receiued axiome with all skilfull Logicians , that true things must be graunted , fals● things denied , and ambiguous things distingushed : which being true , as it is most true indéede , if we shall distinguish regeneration aright , the truth of this intricate question will soone appeare : viz. that one may aswell both sinne and do good at one and the same time , as he may at the same time be both a father and a sonne . Theoph. Our Papists contend with might and maine , that howsoeuer we distinguish regeneration , yet shall man in his iustification be freed from all sinne , and consequently he cannot sinne mortally in the best act he doth . Remig. The Papists erre grosly about regeneration , whilest they doe not vnderstand the same aright according to the holy scriptures : or they beare the world in hand , that euery iustified person is fréed from all sinne in his soule , and onely subiect to sinne materially in his body : which if it were true , as it is most false , then doubtlesse could not the regenerate man commit mortall sinne while he doth his best workes . Theoph. The Apostle seemeth to stand on their side , when he telleth vs , that the flesh lusteth against the spirit , and the spirit against the flesh : and it is confirmed by the same Apostle , in another place , where he affirmeth himselfe to serue the law of God in his minde , but the law of sinne in his flesh : which doctrine elsewhere he deliuereth in other termes , distinguishing man into the inward and outward man , and in another place into the old and new man. Remig. The Pope , his Cardinals , Iesuits , and Iesuited Popelings , for the maitenance of their false and erronious doctrine of mans iustification , do shamefully abuse and wrest the holy scriptute to a contrary sense and meaning , fraudulently perswading their silly deuoted vassals , that originall concupiscence remaineth onely in the body , and not at all in the soule , where as the truth is farre otherwise , as holy wridtoth euidently co●uince . Theoph. They contend and obstinately affirme , that the inward man doth connotate the soule , and the outward man the body : and the termes of inward and outward , seeme very agreeable to their application . Remig. The spirit , the law of the mind , the inward , and outward inall , are all one with the holy Apostle , and do signifie the whole man as he is regenerate : and semblably , the flesh , the law of the members , the outward , and the old man , are with the same Apostle all one , and do signifie the whole man as he is corrupt by the fall of Adam . Theoph. If it be possible for you ●oo demonstrate this doctrine out of holy writ , you thereby giue the Pope a deadly wound , and turne his religion vpside downe . Remig. Marke well my discourse , that ye may vnderstand the same . Saint Iohn hath these expresse words : which are borne hot of blood nor of the will of the flesh , nor of the will of man , but of God : in which asseueration , the holy Euangelist vnderstandeth by the word ( flesh ) the whole man as he is corrupt and vnregenerate . Theoph. How can it be proued , that Saint Iohn : vnderstandeth the corrupt man by the word ( flesh . ) ? Remig. These foure are distinguished in the Euangelist , blood , the will of the flesh , the wil of the man , and God : by which distinction he giueth vs to vnderstand , that the will of the flesh doth connotate the whole man corrupt : I proue it , because the Euangelist distinguisheth blood , flesh , and man , one from another by a particular dissunctiue , and God from them all , by a particular aduersatiue . Theoph. Your affirmance of the quadruple distinction , is euident , but how should flesh connotate the corrup man , it doth not so well appeare . Remig. I proue it two waies . First , if the word ( flesh ) should signifie the body or fleshly parts of man , the Euangelist should thereby consound himselfe , and fr●strate his distiction : the reason is euident , because in the first word ( blood ) he did formerly inf●●nate so much vnto his reader Secondly , because the Euangelist addeth an adiunct to the word ( flesh ) which can no way agrée to the body . Theoph. What is that adiunct , I pray you . Remig. The will of the flesh : for will is added vnto flesh , not vnto blood , and it is a proper faculty of the soule , but not of the body : for the flesh or body hath no will at all . which for all that the Euangelist attributeth to the flesh : and consequently , he meaneth and speaketh of that flesh which hath a will , and so of the corrupt man , fitly compared to flesh , as who before his regeneration sauoreth onely the things of the flesh : which sense the Apostle plainly vn●oldeth , when he affirmeth the animall , sensuall , and naturall man , not to perceiue the things of thy spirit of God. This reason or explication is confirmed by an other testimony of the same Apostle , where he auoucheth the flesh to lust against the spirit , and the spirit against the flesh , so that the children of God cannot performe the things they will and earnestly desire : for this conflict betwéene the flesh and the spirit , must néeds be vnderstoode of the regenerate and vnregenerate parts of man : for the flesh lusteth not without the soule , as both Saint Austen and reason teaceth vs. Theoph. The Papists expound the words of the Apostle otherwise , affirming the cumbat to be betweene the body signified by the flesh , and the soule signified by the spirit . Remig. The Papists say much , but proue little : they striue for life to obscure the Apostles true sense and meaning , as which turneth their faith & religion vp●idedoune : but I God willing ) will proue what I say , by the expresse words of holy writ , and by euident reason . First therefore , many texts of holy scripture doe conuince the Papists o● grosse errour , while they peruer●ly and , mordicus auerre , that the soule of the regenerate is frée from all mortall sin , and that originall sinne remaineth onely in the body materially : the first text is comprised in these words , create in me a cleane heart , O God , and renew a right spirit within me : cast me not away from thy presence , and take not thine holy spirit from me . In these words the holy Prophet sheweth plainely , that he was regenerate , and yet not frée from sinne : for in that he desireth his heart to be purified , and his spirit to be renued , he giueth vs to vnderstand , that his soule is not frée from sinne , nor himselfe perfectly regenerate . On the other side , in that he prayeth God not to take away his holy spirit from him , nor to cast him away from his presence ; he sheweth euidently to the indifferent reader , that he is regenerate , though not wholly , yet in part . The second text confirmeth the same , in these words : though our outward man perish , yet the inward man is renewed daily . The third text is yet plainer , in these words : be renewed in the spirit of your minde , and put on the new man , which after God is created in righteousnesse and true holines . The fourth text is as plaine , in these words : séeing yée haue put off the old man with his works , and haue put on the new , which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him . The fifth text doth further confirme the same , in these words : night and day praying excéedingly that we might sée your face , and might accomplish that which is lacking in your faith . By al which texts it is very cléere and euident , that the regenerate man is not wholly renewed in his souls : for which respect , Saint Iohn exhoedeth him that is iustified , to be iustified more : Qui iustus est , iustificetur adhuc Yea , S. Paul throughout a whole chapter , doth in effect intend no other thing , but onely to demonstrate by many arguments , that mans regeneration is vnperfect aswell in the soule as in the body : two verses onely will suffice , for the cléering of our question . The former verse is conteined in those words : for we know that the law is spirituall , but I am carnall , fold vnder sinne . The latter verse , in these words : for I know , that in me , that is in my flesh , dwelleth no good thing , for to will is present with me , but I find no meanes to performe that which is good . Out of which verses , I obserue these memorable doctrines . First , that by the word ( flesh ) must néedes be vnderstoode the whole man , as he is corrupt and not regenerate : I proue it , because the Apostle saith , ( in me ) and expoundeth it by his flesh . Secondly , that the word ( flesh ) cannot determine the word ( me ) vnlesse it signifie the corrupt parts both of body and soule : for the words ( I and ( me ) do connotate his person , not barely any one part of his soule or body . Thirdly , that he saith , no good dwelled in him : albeit he confesseth both in this chapter , & in sundry other places , that the grace of God and the holy Ghost dwelleth in him , and consequently , that when he saith , no good dwelleth in him , he meaneth of the parts vnregenerate , which he nameth his flesh , saying , in me , that is , in my flesh dwelleth no good thing . Fourthly , that the holy vessell of our Lord Iesus , affirmeth himselfe to be sold vnder sinne , and to be carnall , and consequently , that sinne is in him formally throughout all his vnregenerate parts , and not onely in his body materially , as our Pope and Iesuits would enforce vs to beéeue : for though the regenerate be spirituall in the greater part , yet are they in part carnal ; as the holy Apostle here auoucheth of himselfe , and S. Iames of himselfe and all the rest : howbeit , Saint Paul & S. Iames were as spirituall as any this day liuing , if not more : yet the best liuers of all haue not so put on the new man , but the reliques of the old man still remaine in them , which they must indeuour by the grace of regeneration , daily more & more to abolish and put away from them . Secondly , the same truth of mans vnperfect regeneration , may be proued by euident reason . For the soule which giueth life , sense , and mouing to the body , and doth informe the same , cannot possibly be an enemy to the body , and haue continuall warres wich it . For ( as the Apostle teacheth vs ) no man euer yet hated his owne fleshe , but nourisheth and cherisheth the same , euen as Christ doth his Church : and it is confirmed , because the flesh coueteth nothing without the soule . These authorities and reasons wel considered , this illation cānot but bee cléere & euident , viz. that the contention , conflict , and rebellion , which is betwéene the flesh and the spirit , cannot possibly be vnderstood of the soule and the body , but of the parts vnregenerate , aswell of the soule as of the body : for the Apostle by the flesh , euery where vnderstandeth the sensuall man , as he is begotten aud borne of his parents : to wit , that old Adam , which is not led by the spirit of God , neither obeieth the law of God , but his wicked affections : so doth our sauiour himselfe call that flesh which is borne of the flesh , and that spirit which is borne of the spirit : for ( as S. Austin saith ) the iustified man is yet mundus & mundandus , cleane , and to be made cleane , cleane in part , and in part vncleane : and therefore is he willed to clense himselfe from all filthinesse of the flesh and spirit , and to grow vp into all holinesse in the feare of God. Theoph. You haue so soundly proued that mans regeneration is vnperfect , and that originall concupiscence still remaineth euen formally in the vnregenerate , not onely in his body but also in his soule , as it is able fully to perswade any indifferent reader , and all such as are carefull of their saluation . Howbeit I still stand doubtful , & am at my wits end what to thinke of this your receiued Maxime ; Iustus in omni opere bono peccat ; the iust man sinneth in euery good acte . Remig. I told you afore , that it is one thing to sinne in doing a good act , another thing , to sinne while the good act is a doing . The former way no man sinneth at any time ; but the latter way , the best liuer on earth , sinneth continually . For of originall vncleannesse there is that yet sticking in the best , for the which God may iustly condemne them to hell fire . Theoph. I remember the distinction very well , but there are many texts of holy Scripture , which seeme to make against the same . Remig. Propound them all one by one , and omit not any that troubleth you : for I hope in God so to answere them , as you shall neuer henceforth stand in doubt thereof . Theoph. God himselfe saith , that the wickednesse of man was great on earth , and that all the imaginations of the thoughts of his heart were only euill continually . Out of which words proceeding from the spirit of God , I obserue these memorable points of doctrine . First , that man is very wicked . Secondly , that not onely some , but euen all the imaginations of his heart , are euill . Thirdly , that they are not only euill for a day , weeke , moneth or a yeere , but euen continually . Fourthly , that they are onely euill , and haue no good at all in them , and consequently , that man can do no good at all , but sinneth in his best acts continually . Remig. I answere : that the text by you alleaged , is vnderstood in the corrupt man before his regeneration , in whom there is no good at any time ; not of the regenerate man , in whom there is much good continually . I proue it many wayes : First , because in the very next chapter , the spirit of God pronounceth Noah righteous in his sight . Secondly , because holy writ affirmeth constantly that Zacharias and Elizabeth , were both iust before God , and walked in all his commandements . Thirdly , because the holy Apostle of our Lord Iesus , telleth vs very plainely , that he which is borne of God sinneth not : yea , S. Iohn procéedeth further , and auoucheth resolutely , that he cannot sinne , because he is borne of God. Fourthly , because by doing of righteousnesse , the children of God are knowne and discerned from the children of the Diuel . Fifthly , because y● Apostle comparing the works of Caine and of Abel together , affirmeth the workes of the one to be euill , and the others to be good . Sixthly , because S. Iohn telleth vs of Uirgins which are not defiled with women , but follow the Lambe whithersoeuer he goeth . Seuenthly , because the holy scripture commendeth Cornelius for a deuout man , and one that feared God , and affirmeth his prayers and almes to haue come vp into remembrance before God. Eighthly , because Peter did a good act when he confessed Christ to be the sonne of the liuing GOD : for Christ answering , pronounced him blessed , affirming , not flesh and bloud , but God aboue to haue reuealed it to him . Ninthly , because they are happy that suffer persecution for righteousnesse . Tenthly , because the whole Scripture ( especially the Epistle to the Hebrewes ) maketh frequent mention of the good workes which the children of God haue done . Theoph. The Scripture saith plainely , that wee all are conceiued and borne in sinne , that no flesh can be iustified in Gods fight , that if he straitly marke our iniquities , none is able to abide it , that the holy Apostles offend in many things , that all haue sinned and are depriued of the glory of God : ergo , it seemeth that the best liuer sinneth , in the best worke he doth . Remig. True it is , that the best liuers on earth are great sinners , and that they may iustly be damned to hell for the same . For as S. Austen saith grauely : Woe to the best liuer on earth , if God iudge him , his mercy set apart . But hereupon can it neuer be concluded that the iust man sinneth in euery worke he doth . Theoph. The best workes of the regenerate are vnperfect , and consequently the regenerate man sinneth in the best worke he doth ? Remig. Your consequence doth not hold , the reason is at hand , viz. because euery imperfection , neither doth nor can make a good act euill : for although imperfection be so linked and chained with sinne in y● regenerate , that whersoeuer it be found , there is sinne also in the same subiect ; yet is not that sin in the act well done , but either in some other act euill done , or else in the omission of that which ought to be done . Let vs take an example for the illustration of the truth and question now in hand ; and let vs suppose , that S. R hath lent 40. pounds vnto T. B. to be repaid vpon May-day next , at which day y● said T. B. bringeth onely 30. pounds , being all y● he possibly can prouide . In this ease , the debtour tendereth an vnperfect paiment to the Creditour . Howbeit , he doth not wrong the creditour in bringing him 30. pounds , but the iniury is done in not bringing more . Theoph. He wrongeth his creditor by his vnthankefulnesse , in that he doth not bring him the iust summe which he borrowed . Remig. The Creditor is wronged indéed , yet not in y● paiment of the 30. pounds , but in the non paiment of other ten pounds . Imperfection is euer cheyned with sin , as is already sayd , yet the sinne or wrong done in this case to the Creditor , is not in the 30. pounds truly paid , but in the ten pounds remaining vnpaid . For example sake . A seruant receiuing of his maister ten shillings to be distributed to the poore , giueth onely eight shillings thereof to them , and reserueth two shillings to himselfe . In this case the seruant trespasseth generally : yet not in distributing eight shillings , a part of his charge , but in kéeping back two shillings which he should haue giuen : For when a seruant is commanded to do althing , which hée doth onely in part , but not wholly , the offence is not in that which he doth , but in that which he leaueth vndone . Euen so is it in the question now in hand . For the lowly Publican sinned not in smiting his breast , and in asking mercy for his sinnes . The Mid-wiues , Shiphrah & Puah sinned not in that they feared God , and disobeyed y● kings wicked commandement . Moses sinned not , in s●aying y● Idolaters at Gods appointment . Hanna sinned not in powring out her soule before the Lord. Rahab sinned not in receiuing the spies peaceably . Dauid sinned not in cōfessing his sinnes when Nathan the Prophet reproued him for the same . Peter sinned not in wéeping bitterly for his sinnes . Cornelius sinned not in fearing God & praying continually . King Asa sinned not in doing right in the eyes of the Lord. King Ezechias sinned not in cleaning to the Lord , and in not departing from him . Iosias sinned not in turning to y● Lord with al his heart , with all his soule , and with all his might . Paul full of the holy Ghost , sinned not in reprouing Elimas the sorcerer , for peruerting the right waies of the Lord : neither yet in hating the sinne which he could not auoide . Abel sinned not in offering a greater sacrifice then Caine , by which he obtained Gods owne testimony that he was righteous . Abraham sinned not in obeying God when he was called , neither in offering vp his onely sonne when God commanded him so to do . Iob sinned not in being vpright and iust , in fearing God , and eschewing euill . Zacharias and Elizabeth sinned not in walking in all the commandements of the Lord , without reproch . S. Stephen full of the holy Ghost , and ready to giue his life for the truths sake , sinned not in calling on God and saying , Lord Iesus receiue my spirit . Dutifull subiects sinne not in praying dayly for their Soueraignes : for holy writ pronounceth it to be good and acceptable in the sight of God. All which , and many other like testimonies ( which in regard of breuity , I now omit ) do proue and euidently conuince , that though the regenerate sinne while they do their good workes , yet do they not sinne in doing the same : for it is one thing to sin in doing the worke , another thing to sin while the worke is a doing . Theoph. Your discourse hath fully satisfied me in this intricate and difficult question : I perceiue your distinction to be as true , as it is subtile : the ignorance whereof , hath brought no small ruine to the Church of God : howbeit , sundry mighty obiections , may be made against the same : which by your fauour I shall propound as they come to my mind . Obiection first . Theoph. It seemeth to many a thing impossible , that a man while he sinneth , should do good . Remig. It is no more impossible , then it is for the same man to be a father while he is a sonne . Theoph. The same man cannot be both a father and a sonne , at one and the same time in one and the same respect , but in diuerse respects , though at the same time . Remig. True that is , and I desire no more : the holy Apostle decideth the controuersie , in these golden words : I my selfe in my mind serue the law of God , but in my flesh the law of sinne : here the chosen vessell of God doth plainely expresse , and liuely lay open before our eyes , that himselfe both did good workes , and also sinned while he did the same , though not in the same respect : for , to serue the law of God , is a right good worke , but to serue the law of sinne , is a great offence : yet both these the Apostle did at the same time , though not in the same respect : for , as he was regenerate , he serued God truly ; but in the vnregenerate parts both of body & soule , or flesh and mind , ( which with the Apostle are all one ) he sinned damnably . Theoph. How can the Apostles act be vnperfect , and yet without sinne ? Remig. I haue so plainely vnfolded this difficulty already , that I greatly admire , how you can bee ignorant thereof : imperfection , though it bee euer chained with sinne in the regenerate , doth not for all that connotate his act well donebu ; teither some other act euill done , or else the ●mission of the act that should be done : For example , Saint Paul , when he serued the law of God in his mind , did a good act , though vnperfectly , and sinned not in doing the same : howbeit at the same time he sinned perfectly , in seruing the law of sin neuerthelesse his imperfection consisted not in seruing y● law of God , which was an act pleasing God , who neuer is or can be pleased with sinne : but it consisted in seruing the law of sinne , which was perfectly an act , no way pleasing God : The imperfection ariseth not of that which is well done , but of that which is either ill done , or left vndone . Theoph. How can the seruing of the law of sinne , be be perfectly an euill act , seeing the seruing of the law of God is not perfectly a good act . Remig. The holy and auncient father Dionysius Ariopagita , vnfoldeth this difficulty , whiles he affirmeth more to be required to good , then to euill : for perfect good , requireth a perfect and intire cause , but perfect euill , issueth out of euery defect : Bonum exintegra causa , malum exquolibet defectu ? Theoph. The Apostle telleth vs , that al mē are sinners , that there is none that doth good , no not one : how then can the regenerate be without sinne , in the best act he doth ? Remig. True it is , that the bestliuers on earth are great sinners , and for their sinnes may iustly be damned to hell-fire : true it is likewise , that none , no not one , doth any good perfectly : yet this notwithstanding , true it is thirdly , that the regenerate doth much good imperfectly , and sinneth not in doing the same : for doubtlesse Saint Paul sinned not in seruing the law of God vnperfectly ; albeit he sinned grieuously at the same time , in seruing the law of sinne : for , ( as the holy and auncient father Saint Austen writeth learnedly ) Multum boni facit , qui facit quod scriptum est , post concupiscentias tuas non eas ; sed non perficit , quod non implet quod scriptum est ; non concupisces : He doth great good , who doth that which is written , follow not thy ●u●tes : but he doth not perfect his well doing , because he doth not fulfill that which is written , thou shalt not lust . The same father in another place , hath these expresse words , Ecce , quemadmodum qui ambulant in vijs Domini non operantur peccatum , & tamen non sunt ●ine peccata ▪ quia iam , non ipsi operantur iniquitatem , sed quod habitat in e●s peccatum : Behold , how they that walke in the wayes of the Lord , do not sinne , and yet are they not without sinne , because now , not they worke iniquity , but the sinne that dwelleth in them : in which words Saint Austen sheweth plainely , that though the regenerate do not fulfill the law exactly , yet do they good and sinne not , so long as they striue against sinne , and suffer it not to raigne in them : for which cause saith Saint Iohn , that he which is borne of God , sinneth not , neither can sinne , because he is borne of God : and in the next verse , he affirmeth the children of God to be discerned from the children of the diuell : for their good workes and righteousness● : alittle after , he telleth vs plainely , that Cain slew his brother Abel , because his owne workes were euill , and his brothers good : again in the same chapter , he auoucheth constantly , that he that committeth sinne , is of the deuill : I therefore conclude , that the regenerate , as regenerate ( marke well the reduplication ) do good and sinne not : howbeit , as they commit sinne , so are they of the diuell and vnregenerate : they kéepe Gods commandments in part and som● degrée , but not in all . Theoph. If the regenerate , as such be , without sinne , then may they merite their owne saluation , as the Papists hold and beleeue . Remig. You are greatly deceiued in this déepe point of diuinity : for , though the regenerate , as they are regenerate ( this reduplication is very emphaticall ) neither do nor can sin , as y● holy Apostle teacheth vs , yet do they sin continually in their vnregenerat parts , which is enogh for their ●u●● condēnation : for , as in the regenerate parts they serue the law of God , so in the vnregenerate they serue the law of sinne : and consequently séeing ( as Saint Iames saith ) whosoeuer kéepeth y● whole law , and faileth in one point , is guilty of all : and séeing also as ( Saint Paul saith ) that euery one is accursed which performeth not the law : it followeth that the regenerate 〈◊〉 farre from meriting their saluation by their best workes , that they might iustly be damned for the same , if God should deale with them in iustice and iudgement , his mercy set a part . Theoph. I cannot yet see , how ●e that sinneth whiles he doth a good worke , doth not sinne in doing the same : may it please you to illustrate it , by some familiar example . Remig. You must either marke the distinction well , or else you can neuer vnderstand the same a right . I will giue you a very plain example by which you may easily sée the truth thereof . Take one penne full of blacke incke in your right hand , an other full of red incke in your left hand ; this done , draw with the said pennes two long lines at one and the same time : in this case ▪ it is very cléere and euident , that in making a blacke line you doe not make a red , neither yet in making a red line , doe you make a blacke : howbeit , while you make the blacke line , you make also the red , and semblably , while yée make the red , you make also the blacke : but doublesse , in making blacke you do not make red , neither yet in making red do you make blacke : euen so may you sinne ( it cannot with reason be denied ) while you doe a good worke , and yet not sinne in doing the same . Theoph. Your example doth giue me a perfect insight into the question now in hand : but our sauiour telleth vs , that no man can serue two maisters : how then can a man both doe well and sinne at once ? for to doe well ▪ is to serue the best maister , and to sinne , is to serue the worst of all : that is , euen God and the diuell . Remig. I answere : first , that one may truly and honestly serue two maisters , when the one is subordinate and subiect to the other : for so doth Saint Paul teach vs in these expresse words , seruants , obey your maisters according to the flesh , with feare and trembling , in singlenesse of your hearts , as vnto Christ : loe , a seruant may obey his carnall master , and in so doing Christ himselfe : so did holy Ioseph serue God , and the King of Egypt : so did Daniel serue God , and the King of Babel . Secondly , that though the regenerate sinne daily , and be continually assaulted with the cumbat of the flesh against the spirit , yet doe they not suffer sinne to reigne in them , neither doe they consent to the vnlawfull desires thereof , but vtterly hate and detest the same : and consequently , they serue not two maisters , but one onely , euen our Lord Iesus Christ : for , to hate sinne , to fight courageously against sinne , and to be at continuall destance with it , as the Iewes were with the Cananites , is not to serue sinne , but to be a mortall enemy to sinne , and rather the master then the seruant thereof : which sense our Sauiour himselfe doth plainely insinuate , in these words immediatly following : for either he shall hata the one , and loue the other , or else he shall leane to the one , and despise the other : as if he had said , no man can truly and dutifully serue two masters , as a seruant ought to doe : for it is not the part of a seruant to hate his master , to withstand his commaundes , and euery houre to fight with him , as the regenerate children of God do continually with sin : yea , the Apostle confirmeth the same sense , when he plainely confesseth of himselfe , that he did not that good which he would , but that euill which he would not : and thereupon concludeth , that he himselfe did it not , but the sinne that dwelled in him : for albeit sinne , against his will remained still in him , and had daily conflicts and continuall cumbats with him , yet had he the victory and vpper hand ouer sinne , in that he stood constantly at defiance with it , and would neuer yéelde consent vnto it . Thirdly , that one may serue two contrary maisters secundum quid , though not simpliciter ; in part , but not simply , wholly , or totally : and this sense doth the holy Apostle affoord vs , while he confesseth resolutely , that he himselfe serued the law of God in his mind , but in his flesh the law of sinne : for , by reason of the reliques of the flesh , and grace of the spirit , he was deuided in himselfe . Theoph. This seemeth to smell of Popery : for they teach , that the regenerate sinne onely in the body materially , and not at all in the soule . Remig. I haue proued formerly , if you wel remember , y● the Apostle vnderstandeth by y● word ( flesh ) whatsoeuer is in man not yet renued by y● holy Ghost to wit ▪ not only the sensitiue appetite , but euen 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 will ●●●●nerate : For as the same Apostle ●ai●h else where 〈◊〉 They that are in the flesh cannot please God , which is all one , as if he had said they that haue not the spirit of regeneration , which abolisheth sin in them , though not all at once , but by degrées , cannot possibly please God : neither can y● Popish sense by any meanes be true , séeing by it none liuing , no Pope , no Cardinall , no Iesuite , can possibly please God : The reason is euident , because none can liue on earth , but which haue their soules in their bodyes . This sense the Apostle doth plainly deliuer in these words immediatly following : now ye are not in the flesh , but in the spirit , because the spirit of God dwelleth in you : but if any man haue not the spirit of Christ , the same is not his : here it is cléere , that the word ( flesh ) doth connotate whatsoeuer is in man vnregenerate , but not the body which the soule informeth . This sense is more plainely confirmed in another place , where it is written ; for we know , that the law is spirituall , but I am carnall sould vnder sinne : where we sée euidently , that the Apostle by ( flesh ) meaneth neither the body onely , nor the soule onely , but both body and soule , so farre forth as they are vngenerate : for the word ( carnall ) doth not barely connotate any one part , either of body or of soule , but the whole person of man , not yet purified with the grace of regeneration . The words are very emphaticall , ( for I am carnall ) S. Paul speaketh of himselfe , being the regenerate child of God , and for all that fréely acknowledgeth himselfe to be carnall , and sold vnder sinne . Which acknowledgement he maketh in respect of his vnperfect renouation , as well of soule as of body giuing vs thereby to vnderstand ▪ that the best 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 are sanctified but in part , not wholly and perfectly . For doubtlesse , if the sanctification of Gods Children were perfect in this life ▪ S. Paules should haue found no defect : but he that is iustified and sanctified , must continually endeuour to bee more and more iust and holy . Which precept is giuen in vaine , if sanctification in this life be perfect . Theoph. I see it most euidently , that S. Paul and the rest of the Apostles , were not sanctified wholly , but onely in part : and that therefore they both sinned , and did good workes at once ▪ albeit they sinned onely while they did their good workes , but neuer in doing the same . Gods holy name be blessed for that insight into the Catholike truth , which in great mercy , he hath by this conference ; bestowed on me : And I most humbly thanke you ( Father R●●igi●● ) for your most Christian paines on my behalfe ; faithfully promising to rest yours during life , in what I possibly may or can , as one that oweth euer himselfe vnto you . Laus Deo vni & trino . FINIS . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A07782-e450 Ma● . v 14● . Luc 13. v. 24. Mat. 20. ● ▪ 17. Luc. 〈◊〉 . v. 24. Pope Stephanus a cruell Ty●●nt . Pope Iohn a notorious who ▪ ● ▪ munger . Pope Bonifacea Church rob●● . Pope Ben●● an extortione● . Pope Iohn with child . Pope Boniface entred as a Fox , li●ed as a Wolfe , and died as a Dogge . Pope ●ylu●ster promised ●omag● to the Deuil . Robert parsons an holy Fryer . If th●● shalt read ●hi● Anatomy ▪ thou canst not but abho●●e ●a●e ●p●●a●● Popery . Aug. Epist. 119. A●●st ▪ contra Epist ●●●dam . S. Aus●●● respected ●uccession , w●●ch was ●oy●●● with holy ●●f● and pure ●oct●i●● , the euill life of Ministe●s doth much hurt to the truth . Rom. 2 v. 14. Act. 27 v. 10 11 〈◊〉 . Hebr. 31. v. 7. Note that the Bishop of Rome did neuer aledge for himselfe that he could not erre because hee kn●we no such prerogatiue in very deede . Cyp●● Epist ad Pompeum . The Iesuites are a now & young ●ecte of Fiyers . The papists are the de●●med Catholique , we the reformed . Rom ▪ 1. v. 8 The sect of Franciscans . Theophilus a Citisen of Rome . Let this be well remembred . our Church reuerenceth antiquity & onely reiecteth nouelties . The late romish ●aith is the new religion . Ma● . 13. ver . 25. we are the true reformed Catholikes . ● . reg . 2. ver 27. 35. ● . par . 1● . 4. reg . 8. 2. 2. pat . 29. par . 2● . 30. 31. 34. Mat. 10. ● . 12 Notes for div A07782-e2520 Luc. 12. ● . 3● . Grat dist . 4● . chap. 〈◊〉 Pap● . Ans. 2. q. 7. Cap. ●u●● . The Author takes it vpon his saluation , th●● hee dealeth truely . 〈◊〉 dela●i● vigner d● ver● . fides . ●●ra , in 16. cap. Mat. ●ose A●●● ▪ ● . s. p. 2. q. de exco● . ar . 4. d●●f . 1. The Popes double person . Soto . in 4 s d. 2. 4. 2. 〈◊〉 . ● . Qu●dl . ● . ● . 10. S. R. pag. 417. Lib. 6. de ha●●t . cap qui conque caus 17 ● . 4. cap. si ●u● . Popery is a most meserarable religion ▪ Gers ▪ in Serp● . de Pasck . ● . pa●t . The Pope ●rr●d . as a publique person , ie cannot be denied . Alphon. ● Castrolib . ● . ad vers . h●re ses , ●rop● 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Bellarm. de ●um Pontifice lib 4. c. 14 ●●te pope●y i● not the old but the new religion . Di●it Adrianus , A. D. 1171. A tricke of Legierdemaine . A most blasphemous doctrine . Marke this well . Gers. prim . art . de e●am . doct . consid . 2. Gers in pripart de appellat . a Papa , in prop●sit . This my selfe admit and beleeue . Beliarm ▪ de concil , libri . 2. Cap. 2. The councell of Cōstance deposed Pope Iohn . Alphons . lib 1. Cap. 4. aduers. haeres . Celestine erred as Pope and publike person . This fact of S. Cypriā , confoundeth the Pope . Other Bishops were of Cyprians opinion . Notes for div A07782-e5110 Luk. 22. v. 32. S. Peter suffred at Rome . Ioh. 17. v. 9. 20. Gers. vbi . sup . cap. 2. ●ug . in quaest mixtis , q. 5. t●m . 4. Orig. Hom●● in Mat. ●a●or . apud Syl● . defido ▪ §. 9. & de conc §. 5. Panorm . de elect . cap significati . Ap●d . Bel. lib. 4 cap. 3. de rom . pontif . G●rs . 〈…〉 Coram Philip . ●●ge Franc●● , supra cap. 2. Bellarm. de verb. de●on script . lib. 4. cap. 12. Ps. 116. v. 11. Iere. 16. v. 19. Rom. 3. v. 4 Mal. 1. v. 8. Esa. 28. v. 7 Eze. 7 v. 〈◊〉 . Micach . 3. v. 1● . Soph. 3 v. 4 Offē●is . adu . Luth. art . 32. Lege . Ca●eta● . in prefat , in libr. M●●is , & Aug. ep . 11. 19. Eze. 20. 10. Cyprian . lib. 1. epist. 3. Cyprian vbi . super . He speaketh of one Felicissimus & his bad companions . S. R. pag. 31● . See the ●esuits antepast . pag. 13● . The Romans being faithfull men ▪ would not giue eare to faithles lyars . Bell knoweth Bellarmine right well . Marke this point well . Mat 16. ver . 18. As in all assemblies of gouernment , one for order sake and peace must bed ssigned to end , and to moderate the actions , so was a preminence giuen to Peter among the Apostles that all things might be done in peace & order , a primacy , not of powers as ouer inferio●rs , but of order , as amongst equals . 1. Cor. 3. 11. Mat. 16. 18 Apo● . 21 ▪ 14. Aug. de . verb. Dom. serm . 13. Chrys. serm . de pent . 10. 3. Apoc. 21. v. 14. Hilarius de trinit lib. ● . p 103. Pan●rmit . & S●luester . marke this point well for it is wonderfull and killeth the papists . Mat. 16. ver . 13. 15. Luke 22. ver . 32. Mat. 18. ver . 15. 18. 19. 20 The whole vniuersity of Paris teacheth this my doctrine . Gal. 2. 7. Marke this poynt againe and againe . To auoyde ●sme , di Per hathe primacy of order but not of power . Mat. 28. v. 19. Mark 16. v. 14. 15. ioh . 21. v. 14. 15. Aug. de ogonae Christi cap. 30. Rom. 3. Cypr. de simplicit . Prelaetorum p. 113. Cypr. de vnitate Ecclesiae , p. 29● . Couarr to 1. part 2 , 9. p. 242. col . 4. prope finem . Angl. in 4. q de clau , di● fic . 2. Concl. 1. pag. 6. Lo , Peter had the primacy of order , as amongst equals , not of power , as ouer inferious , for he was the first both in order and calling . Ioh. 1 42. Mat. 10. 2. 〈◊〉 tollend● schismata . Marke wel that all Writers teach this doctrine . Marke this well , for it striketh dead . Mortuus est Ioannes . A. D. 99. Let this be well marked . 1 Tim. 3. v. 15. wee differ not in the thing , but in the modification thereof . Syluest . de Eccles. §. 4. Lo , not the Pope , but the congregation of the faithfull is 3. the church that cannot erre . Panorm . de elect cap. significasti . Cers idem . docet . p. 1. de exam . doctrin . Seo the antepast . pag. 173. 175 ▪ 177. Oh that this learned man durst haue spoken out . ● Caus. 24. quaest 1. arecta , 〈◊〉 glosia . ● Vide Dur. in ration● . ● Tim. 3. v. 15. Aug. in Ps. 47. in pref . Vide Aug. lib. 7. de bapt . c. 51. tom . ● . Ansel. in . 1. tim . 3. v 15. ● Gerson part . 1. de examin doctrin . Iesuites Antepast . pag. 134. Marke this point well . See the antepast . 172. Marke wel this point . The body of Christ , which the wicked are not . Ephe. 2. v. 22 23. 1. Tim 3. 15 Ps. 118. v. 23 Mat 28. v. 20. Esa. 59. 2● . Iere. 33. v , 20. Chrysost. in cap 5. M●● . hom 15. Tom. 1. Aug. in ep . 90. 4. 23 8. Maike wel these vnanswerable testimonies Mat. 24. v. 33. Ioh. 16. v. 13. Ioh. 14. v. 16. The holy Ghost taught no new doctrine , but onely reucaled the true sense of such things as the Apostles did not vnderstand . Ioh. 14. v. 16. It is the selfe same doctrine , but more plainely declared . Canus de lec●s . lib. 3. c. 4. pag. 101. 〈◊〉 ▪ 14. vet . 16. Mat. 28. ver . ●0 . Mat. 23. ver . 2. 3. dist . 42. cap. multi Sacerdotes . The faithful dealing of the Author . Aug. tract . 46. in Ioh , an ▪ in medi● Rom 9. Hylar . in Psal. 118. Pag. 698. Marke this doctrine , and forget it not . Lyr. in cap. 23. Mat. Carth in cap 23. Mat. Deut. 17. ● 9. 10. 11. Popery is plainely confuted by her owne doctors . Lyr. in cap. 17 deuter . Lo , papistry is confuted by Papists even of the best sort . Lyra. in cap. 23. Mat. The Iewish Church erred in matters of faith Lyra vbi super . Carthus . 23. cap. Mat. Ca lt in cap. 17. deut . Canus lib. 3. c●p vlt. pag. 106. Deut. 17. v. 10. Mal. 2. v. 7. Deut. 17. v. 9. v. 10. Deut. 17. v. 8. 9. 10. Mal. 2. v. 8. Note this well . Mal. 2. v. 8. Deut. 17. v. 9. 10. Deut. 10. 12. Exod. 28. 4 Leu. 26. 3. 25. Deut. 28. 1. Deut. 16. v. 18. Deut. chap 16 , v 18. Deut. 17. v , 10 , 11. Mal. 2. v , 7. Deut. 16. 18 This point must be remembred . Deut. 16. 18. Deut , 17 , 9 Mal. 2. 8. Ephes 4. v. 11 13 14. Ephes. 4. v. 14. Gods will is his essence . Psa. 46 80. Ps. 155. 6. Rom. 9. 19. Exo. 4. 22. 23 Mat. 23 v. 37. 1 Tim. 2. v. 4. Mat. 20. v. 16. Genuinu● loci sensus . Exod. 32. v 4. 5. 6 ▪ Rom. 132 Vertually , though not vocally , Exod. 32 , v 1 , 2. 3. 4. 5. 6 , ●5 . Deut. 17. ● . 10. 11. Mat. 26. v ▪ 64. 65. The high Priest , erred most grosly . Notes for div A07782-e12670 Ephes. 4. v. ●2 . Ephes. 4. v. ●2 . The Church of Rome wan ▪ teth formal succession . Clem ▪ ep , 1. Iren. lib. 3. cap. 3. Epi●h her . 27. ●is seb . lib 3. c. 13. 14. 15. Naucler . pa●● 3● histor . S. Peters doing is controlled Carranz . in ●pit . concil . p. 370. & p. 373. The cheefest Bishop dyed at Hierusalem . 1 Tim. 2. 1● 〈◊〉 . Pope Iohn was a woman . Exod 8 , 19. Digitus Dei est hic . The truth must preuaile in time . Palmer . & Sigeber . in Chron. Obraue succession of women Popes . The Popes of Rome 4. can beare children but not preach . Bernard . a● Ganfrid . ep . 12. 5. Apoc. 13. v. 5. 7. The Authors protestation for his sincere dealing . Naucler . pag 713. histor . Ps. 115 v. 2 Mark this . The Church cannot erre , that is the Pope cannot erre . 1489. Victor . de potest Pap● , p●o●os . 16. caus . 17. q ▪ 4 ▪ cap. qui● . Flat Idolatry , euen by Popish ●a●h . This woman-pope , liued A. D. 18. S. ● . pag. 142. Ezec. 3. 18. & cap. 33. v. 8. Psal. 79. v. 6 Luk. 12. 48. Caus. 17. q. 4 cap. siquis . Esa. 55. v. 8. 9. 3. Reg. 8 39 Rom. 8. 17. 1 Par. 28. 9. ● . Sam. 16 ● Psa. 7. v. 10. Mar. 2. 27. A. D. 1439. Loe , the Councell deposed the Pope for his disobedience . A Spaniard being but a Souldier , was the author of the sect of the Iesuites , A. D. 1540. A generall Councell is aboue the Pope , by the verdict of best learned papists . Carranz● , ●ol . 354. & 355. Barth fumus A. D 1503. Plat ▪ in ●ita Sylues● . 3 Platin ▪ in vita Da●● ▪ Platin in vita Iohn . 18. Carranz . fol. 355. The Pope both a theefe and a robber . Carranz . fol. 369. O holy Pope , who would not ●●sl● thy foote ' A. D. 1474. Aug. contr . ep . fund . Mark● well for Christs sake . The old Bishops of Rome , ioined formal succession with materiall . Irenaeus . lib. ● . cap. 43. Ephe ● . 2. 〈…〉 . Lyran in cap. 16. Mat. Ephes. 4. ver . 11. Ioh. 10. v. 4. 1● . 16 26. 27. 8 〈…〉 ● . ●5 . ●uc . 〈◊〉 . ● . 2. 〈◊〉 2 〈◊〉 . 1 Ioh. ● . 〈◊〉 . Hebr. 5. 4. Epiph. lib. 3. pag ▪ 3 ● 5. Hier ▪ cont . Luciser . Act. ● ▪ 24. Act. 6. 6. Act. 4 ▪ 23. 1 ●●Soan●● ▪ 2. 2 ●●m ▪ 1. 6 l●● . 1 5. 1 T●m . 5 22 2 T● 1. 6. Tit. 1. 5. Act 6 6. Act. 14 ● 3. Pela● 〈◊〉 ▪ Seu●●● ▪ Benediciu● . Platin. in vita ● e●●● . 2. A. D. 579 ▪ Platin. in vita Seueri . A. D. 637. Platin in vita Bened. A. D. 685. Caaranz . pag ▪ 301. apud Onuph . in Chron. Corollari● . 1. A. D. 684. Lo , Popery is the new religion . Corollary . 2. Corollary . 3 Dist. 96. Canon . Constantinus . Popes were subiects to Emperors , aboue 340. yeeres after the departure of Constantine from Rome . Ephe. 4. 11. A. D. 596. Marke this well , that our church receiued their Bishops from Rome , whē that church was in good case . 596. Ariost in lit . Politic. The Popish church is stil a true Church , though not a godly Church . Act. 15 5. Ioh. 12. v. 42. 2 Sam. 11. & cap. 12. Mat. 26. v. 74. Relatiua a● ctu sese ponunt & an● f●runt . Iudas was a true Apostle , & yet array●or too . Annointing is not an essentiall part of a King. Valide non ●ice●è . Commune Nice● c●n . ● dist 3 ▪ cap. ●os ●ntiquus ● 〈…〉 . Co●sta●ti● n●p . 6. ●an . ●6 . Luke . 2. 1. A. D. 684. Marke this well . Silly ignorāt papists are grosly deceiued . This cannot be denied by popish doctrine . Behold here a great Mystery of popish foolery . Marke well gentle reader . A. D. 596. A. D. 179. Note , that Elutherius called king Lucinus the Vi●ar of God in his kingdome . Euery child knoweth romanum eloquium is the Lattin tongue Lyr. in 1 , cor . 14. The true member● of the Church are sayd to be invisible , not because the men bee not seene , but for that their faith and conscience to God-ward is not perfectly knowne to vs ▪ Mal. 1. 2. Ephes ▪ 1. 4. Rom. 10. 12 1 Tim. 2. v. 19. Ioh. 10. 36. Rom. 8. 27. ●ere . 17. 9. Apoc. 2. 23. 3 Reg. 18. 22 Rom. 11. 4. They are visible in themselues , but their faith and conscience is not known vnto men . Mat. 10. 4. and 26. 47. & 22. Mat. 26. v. 22. 2 Tim. 2. 19. Mat. ●8 ▪ 17. 1 Cor. 5. 5. 2 Cor. 2. v. ● . 10. 1 Cor. 10. 17. Ephes. 5. 23. 25 , 26. Col 1. 18. 24 Ioh. 10. v. 16 , 27. 1. Ioh. 2 , 19. Mat. 28. ●0 . 1. Tim 3. 15. Psal. 5. 7. Mat. 25. ver . 14. 2. Tim 2. 19 , Our Church doth still retaine all the old Roman religion . Notes for div A07782-e19980 Act. 9. v. 1 , 2 Act. 26. v. 4 5. S. R. pag. 286. S. Cyril lib. 11. in Ioan. cap. 68. Chrys●st . 2. Thes. hom . 3. The Iesuits confession . Marke well for Christs sake . Act. 9 5 S. R. p. 285. 〈◊〉 , 49. in Ioan , 10 , 9 , Lo , the Christian faith is superfluous . This is all I desire , Lo , no vnwritten tradition is necessary for saluation , Athanasius in symbol , S. R. p. 292. The Papists inuincible Bulwarke . Marke this point well Ps. 11. v. 105. 2. Pet. 1. 19. Hebr. 4. ver 12. He is a reprobate whole heart Gods word doth not touch . 2. Cor. 44. 1. Cor. 2. 15. 1. Ioh. 2. ver . 27. 1. Ioh. 10. ver . 27. Ioh. 10. v. 3. 4. 5. Ioh. 3. 18. Luke . 24 ▪ ver . 29. To heare Moses and the Prophets , is to reade their bookes . Rom. 1. v. 1. Act. 26. ver . 22. Christ confirmed the old Testament to be Canonical . Nomb. 23. ver 5. 7. 8. Act. 9. ver . 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 1. Tim. 1. 13. Mat. 7 15. 16. Iob. 2. v. 8. 10 11. Exod. 8. 19 Deut , 4. 2 , Deut 12. 32 Luke , 2● , 35 Luke , 16 , ver , 17 , Mat , 5 , 10. Mat , 24 , 34 , Luke 21 , ver , 33. Luk. 24. v. 44 ▪ Luk. 16. v. 26. Esa. 41. ver . 23. Exod. 8. 19. Psa. 116. ●1 . Psa. 62. 10. Exod. 8. 19 Ier. 17. 5. 1. Reg 13. v. 18. 24. Esa. 41. v. ●2 . 23. Mans pure word must not needes come to passe . Ios. 10. v. 12 13. 2 Reg. 20. v. 11. Mat. 27. v. 45. Luk. 23. v. 44. Mark. 15 v. 33. Ioh. 18. v. 20. Exod ▪ 12. 18. ● Exo. 8 ▪ 19. Psa. 135. 6. Rom. 9. 19. Luk. 24 : v. 44. O dolefull Placebo . Luk. 24. v. 25. Luk. 24. v. 27. The figure Synecdoche . Luk. 24. v. 27. v. 44. v. 45. Ioh. 5. v. 45 46. 47. Ioh. 7. 38. Ioh. ● 2. 48. S. R. Pag. 292. Boasteth of this his obiection . Ps , 62 , 10 , Ps , 116. 11 , Psa. 35 19 Mat. 5. 17. Mat. 22. 40 Mat. 19. 17. Rom. 4. v. 13 , 14. 15. 16 Gal 3. v. 24 Heb. 7. 19. Heb. 8 v , 7 9. ●0 . 13. Heb. 9. 22. Psa. 35. 19. See the Anatomy of Popish tyraany . Ioh. 5. v. 46 ▪ 47. S. R. Pag. 29 2. Ioh. 5. v. 47. Rom. 1. v. 2. 17. Act. ●0 . v. 〈◊〉 . 27. Act. 26. v. 23. 1. Tim. 4. 12. 2. Tim. 3. 15. Act. 20. v. 27. Act. 26. v. 2● ▪ v. 27. S ▪ R. p. 369. Luke , 24. ve● . 27 ▪ 4● . Ioh. 16 ▪ 13. 4. The Popish Bible is the word of man. S. R. p. 387. Canus de locis , lib. 3. cap 4. p. 10● . T●telm de locis d●alect ▪ cap. 33. S. R. pag. 284. Bellarm. lib. 4. de verb. scripto , c. 11. col . ● 91 ▪ to 1. Marke well this my probation . Glogismus in prima figura & modo Daril . Loe , late Popery is flat heresie Ioh. 10. 22. Rom. 16. Rom 14. 23 Hebr ● . 7. Rom 10. 17 Ioh. 3 18. Note this point well ▪ S. R. pag ▪ 292. The Iesuite plainely confoundeth himself ▪ Pag. 287. The Iesuite vnawares ▪ killeth the Pope & his religion . S. R. p. 220. Notes for div A07782-e23760 Mark well , the iust man sineth whiles he doth good workes , but not in doing ▪ them . Gal. 5. 17. Rom. 7. 25. 2. Cor. 4. 16 Ephes. ● . 2● 24. Ioh. 13 The body doth not cou●t without the soule . 1. Cor. ● . ver . 14. Gal. 5. v. 14. ●ug . de perf . iust . r● tioc . 17. S. R. p. 160. P● . 51. 10. 11 2 Cor. 4. v. 16. Ephes. 4. 23 Col. 3. 9. 1 Thes. 3. v. 10. 1 Cor. 13 v 12. Apoc. 22. v. 11. Rom. 7. v. 14. v. 18. 1 Cor. 15. 10. 1 Cor. 6 v. 19. Rom. 8. 9. 1 Cor. 13. 12 ●ac . 3. 2. Secundè princip . ter . anima est forma corporis . Ephes. 5. v. 29. Aug. de perf . iust . rat . ●6 . 17 Ioh. 3. 6. Aug. in Iohan . ●r●ctat 80. 2 Cor. 7. 1. Apoc. 22. 11. Gen. 6. 50 Gen. 7. 1. Luk. 1. 5. 6. 1 Ioh. 3. 9. 1 Ioh. 3. 10. 1 Ioh. 3. 12. Apo● . 14. 4. Mat. 16. v. 16. 17. Mat. 5. v. 10 Hebr. 11. Psal. 51. 5. Ps. 1 43. v. 2. Psa 1 30. 3. Iac. 3. 2. Prou. 20. 9. Aug. lib. 9. confes . c , 13. Luk. 18. v. 13. 14. Exod. 1. 17. Exod. 32. v. 27. 1 Sam. 1. 15. Heb. 11. 31 , 2 Sam. 12. v 7. 13. Mat. 26. 75. Act. 10. 2. 1 Reg. 15. 11. 2 Reg. 18. 6 2 Reg. 23. 25. Act. 13. 9. Rom. 7. v. 15. 25. Hebr. 11. Hebr. 11. v. 8. 17. Gen. 22. v. 2. 3. 9. 10. Iob. 1. v. 1. 22. Luk. 1. 5 , 6. Act. 7. 59. 1 Tim. 2. 7. 2. 3. The regenerate sin not in walking after the spirit . Rom. 8 , 4. Rom. 7. 25. Rom. 7 , 25. Psal. 5. 4. Psal. 6. 8. Are●pag . de d●●●nis . nominib . cap. 4. Rom. 3. v. 10. 11. 12. 3 There are degrees in keeping Gods commandements . Aug. de nup ▪ & concup . lib. 1 ▪ cap. 29 Aug. in psa . 118. conc . ●●fine . Rom. 6. 12. 1 Ioh. 3. v. 9. 10. Ibidem . v. 12. Gen. 4. 8. 1 Ioh. 3. 8. ● Ioh. 3. 9. Iac. 2. 10. Gal. 3. 10. Deut. 27. ●6 . Psa. 143. 2. Ps. 130. 3. Esa. 64. v. 6. Mat. 6. ver . 24 Luk. 3. 16 1. Ioh. 3. v. 8. 9. Ioh. 8 v. 34. Rom 6. v. 20 2. Pe● 2 v. 19 ▪ Ephes. 6. 5. Gen. ●5 . ver . 8. 21 Dan. 2. v. 48. 49. Gal. 5. 17. Cor. 6. v. 11. 1. Ioh 5 v. 4. 1. Ioh. 3 ▪ v. 6 ver . 6. 7. 9. Mat. 6. v. 24 Rom. 7. v. 19. 20. 1 Ioh. 5. v. 4 Rom. 7. 25. Rom. 8. ver . 8. The old man with al his powers , minde , will , and heart . Rom. 8. v. 9 Rom. 7. 14. Gods precepts are kept in some degrees , but not perfectly . Apoc. 22. 〈◊〉 .