A17047	----	A whip for the back of a backsliding Brovvnist Crouch, Humphrey, fl. 1635-1671. This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription A17047 of text S119530 in the English Short Title Catalog (STC 3920). Textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. The text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with MorphAdorner. The annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). Textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. This text has not been fully proofread Approx. 5 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 1 1-bit group-IV TIFF page image. EarlyPrint Project Evanston,IL, Notre Dame, IN, St. Louis, MO 2017 A17047 STC 3920 Wing W1670 ESTC S119530 99854737 99854737 20179 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A17047) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 20179) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 21241:237, 1196:14) A whip for the back of a backsliding Brovvnist Crouch, Humphrey, fl. 1635-1671. 1 sheet ([1] p.) Printed [by M. Parsons] for Humphrey Chrouch [sic], London : [ca. 1640] By Humphrey Crouch. In verse. Printer's name and estimated publication date from STC. Reproduction of the originals in the British Library. eng Brownists -- Poetry -- Early works to 1800. A17047 S119530 (STC 3920). civilwar no A whip for the back of a backsliding Brovvnist, Crouch, Humphrey 1640 805 26 0 0 0 0 0 323 F The rate of 323 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the F category of texts with 100 or more defects per 10,000 words. 2007-08 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2007-08 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2007-09 Elspeth Healey Sampled and proofread 2007-09 Elspeth Healey Text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A Whip for the back of a backsliding BROVVNIST . HElpe Neighbours helpe , good women come with speed , For of your helpe there never was more neede , Mid-wives make haste and dresse you as you run , Either come quickly or we re all undone , The worlds in labour , her throwes comes so quick , That with her paine shee s growne starke lunatick , For I did aske one of her Bratts of late : Why the Lords Prayer was almost out of date ▪ He told me Christ had new Disciples now , That of set forme of Prayer would not allow ; Alasse said I are they so dainty growne , Such a fantastick Crew was never knowne , These are the Bretheren of the Seperation , The Cancor wormes of this our English Nation , And it is feard if they be let alone , These wormes will knaw the Kingdome to the Bone These with the Papists breed the mischeife here , Whilst Cockle Braines builds Castles in the aire , Who Parrot like they having learnd to prate , Disturbe the Church the Common-wealth and State , Yea Church disturbers learnings Enemyes , Yea seeming Saints , yea painted Butter ▪ flyes , Yea Bug-beares of a Kingdom silly Elues , Whose Zeale transports you quite beyond your selves , Oh know you what you doe , that yea presist , Still day by day in doing what you list ▪ Shame to our Kingdome if this suffered bee , From hombred strife we never shall be free , If that you rule the rost you Moone-Calues all , Why doe you force my M●se to railing fall , That never was accustomed to scould , Had not so good a Cause made me so hold ▪ Gods sperit evermore good sperits makes , Then if your sperits of Gods spetits pertakes , You will be ruld by order , not by will , God is the same , the God of order still : And you cannot be his Disciples right , That end what you begin in hate and 〈◊〉 I judge no man but what their accions ●now Brings me of force to judge of what I know , Good Sister Mag-pye and good Brother Daw ▪ That ●eapes o're hills and stumbells at a ●●raw I pray be patient trouble not the State , Your friends at Amsterdam do for you waite ▪ Mistake me not I speake but this to prove you , I de rather have you stay b●cou e I love you , Yet if you stay ●'de have you know what 's meat , Betwixt an J dol● and an Ornament , Which if you doe ● should be g●ad to heare ▪ That to ●u Church once more you would repare , Which though it be of Stone should not be hated ▪ Cause to GODS service it is consecrated , I know not what your Barnes and Stables were , Where A●●e , bray , pray understand and heare , I speake unfainedly I blush to see , Such men so wise in show such Fooles to bee , What though the good and bad together meet ▪ Within the Church as well as in the Street , Shall we refraine the Church ever the more , Alasse ▪ alasse your Argument is poore : How angry were the Pharisees and why , Because our Saviour Christ kept Company With Publicans and Sinners thinke on this ▪ And rectifie your judgements that s amisse . You being good shall in the Chansell sit , The wicked in the Bellfree as 't is fit , If they be so contented on Condition , You 'le come to Church and not run to perdition , No Drunkard nor no Swearer shall sit neere you , For to anoy or other wise to feare you , Because I know you timerous are by nature , And wounderous fearfull of a wicked Creature , The Booke of Common Prayes refind shall bee , Or you shall pray extempory and be free From all occasion of a thing so common , No not so much as looke upon a woman ▪ They shall sit by themselves , let 〈…〉 . For feare your sperits on a suddaine rise , And leade away your mindes from what is good ▪ Brethren we know you are but flesh and blood . Vpon Condition you to Church will go , I le doe the best I can to have it so , Which if I do I hope I am your Friend , As I desire to be , and so ● end . Finis . LONDON , Printed for Humphery Chrouch , 
A15110	----	A discoverie of Brownisme: or, a brief declaration of some of the errors and abhominations daily practiced and increased among the English company of the seperation remayning for the present at Amsterdam in Holland. By Thomas White White, Thomas, fl. 1605. 1605 Approx. 48 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 18 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A15110 STC 25408 ESTC S101313 99837129 99837129 1439 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A15110) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 1439) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English Books, 1475-1640 ; 980:02) A discoverie of Brownisme: or, a brief declaration of some of the errors and abhominations daily practiced and increased among the English company of the seperation remayning for the present at Amsterdam in Holland. By Thomas White White, Thomas, fl. 1605. [6], 26, [4] p. Printed by E. A[llde] for Nathaniel Fosbroke and are to be solde at his shop at the west end of Paules, London : 1605. Printer's name from STC. Reproduction of the original in the Yale University. Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Brownists -- Early works to 1800. 2004-10 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-11 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-01 Jonathan Blaney Sampled and proofread 2005-01 Jonathan Blaney Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A DISCOVERIE of Brownisme : OR , A briefe declaration of some of the errors and abhominations daily practised and increased among the English company of the seperation remayning for the present at Amsterdam in Holland . A wicked man deceiueth his neighbour , and leadeth him into a way that is not good . Pro. 16. 29. By Thomas White . LONDON Printed by E. A. for Nathaniell Fosbroke and are to be solde at his Shop at the West end of Paules . 1605. To the Reader . TWo extremities ( dangerous ) there are which in these dayes bringe no small detriment or annoyance to the Church of God. The one Atheistical prophanes , which is fearful ; and the other hipocritical contention , which is abhominable . And these howsoeuer they seeme to differ the one from the other , yet the one is strengthned and hardned by the other , and this with a mutuall reciprocation : Against both these , the holy Ghost applies a soueraigne remedie : Heb. 13. 14. Followe after peace and holines , without which no man cā see God. And Luk : 1. . 14. 15. That we being deliuered from our enemies , might serue him in holines and righteousnes ( to auoyde prophanes ) before his face ( to flye hypocrisie ) all our dayes . Of the latter of these , or rather of both , ( for the former oft times proceedeth from the latter , howsoeuer for a while enuy palliateth it selfe vnder the name of zeale as both are signified by one Greeke word ) I haue giuen an instance in this treatise following in that congregatiō , which God hath made as a spectacle for others to beware of rash , heady , and contentious courses . This haue I done ( all other peaceable meanes being before vsed ) for the discharging of mine owne duety both to God and his Churches , the staying of others , who would neuer be so affected to them as they are , if they knew their fearefull estate . If eyther for the breuity or rudenes of the stile it satisfie thee not : for the former I cōfesse that I haue rather endeauoured to point at things briefely , then by dilating to fill vp large volumes , of purpose omitting many the vilest thinges , partly for offending chaste eares , partly for sparing them , vnlesse further occasion be ministred by thēselues . And as for the rudenes of the stile , either by superfluous repetitions , or redundant speeches , let the inconuenience both of time & place something excuse me , being but newly arriued , neyther enioying health , nor help of bookes in the penning therof ; my minde also many waies distracted about other businesses . The time to come may bring foorth some further thing more answerable to thine expectation : In the meane time accept this in the best part . And the Lord giue thee vnderstanding in all thinges . A BRIEFE DISCOVERYE , of some of the errors and abhominations , dailye practised and increased , amongst the English Companye of the seperation , remaining for the present at Amsterdam in Holland . IT may seeme strange , that any , who pretend ( aboue all other ) sinceritie in Religion , and there-vpon forsake their owne natiue Country , should yet notwithstāding , be found to abound aboue others with all kinde of debate , malice , adulteries , cousonages , and such other like enormities : And that so much the more in the dayes of their banishment and extreame pouertie , which outward affliction , doth euen humble the wicked : And yet so farre from repentance , that when they are shewed and admonished of their euill dealinges , they seeke to couer , hide , cloake , reproach and reuile their admonishers of better counsaile ; which for mine owne part I could haue borne in silence , committing it to him that iudgeth iustly the sonnes of men : yet least others be deceaued by thē , as some of vs haue beene , and should be drawn by them through their painted colour of holinesse to partake with their abhominations and vnfruitefull workes of darkenes , & to runne with them to that fearefull extreamitie in cōdemning al other churches & men : I thought it my duetie according as my leasure ( which is small , & my abilitie which is lesse , would permit ) vpō experience to giue warning to others of their leaders euil dealing , wherby their people are deuoured . And , although I knowe I shall object my selfe heerein but to the reproach of virulent and venemous tongues , yet shall I be content to beare it , that others may reape benefit thereby . Neither doe I this , any way to discourage the true vpright hearted , but rather that all that call vpon the name of the Lord , may learne to cast frō them the cloake of hypocrisie , and the leauen of contention and maliciousnes , and so not in showe , but in deed departe from jniquitie , least they reape the fruites thereof as these haue done . I haue already written to their leader M. Fr. Iohnson , of his ( with the rest of their elders ) falshood , shiftings , and other contraryties : as also laying to their charge , partaking in and with their church in these blasphemous doctrines . 1 , That they held it lawfull for a man to liue with her that is not his wife , rather then to reueale himselfe , which first denyes the prophecy of Christ ; secondly destroyes the nature of repentance , and thirdly is a fundamētal error cōtrary to these scriptures . Math. 3. 2. 8. Rom 3. 8. & 6. 1. Heb. 6. 2. That there are qualities in God not essentiall , & that loue in God is not of his being , but that the selfe same loue that is in god , that is also in vs , which ouerturnes the nature of God , and the simplenes of his being , and is a ground of famulisme , and a blasphemous Doctrine contrary to these scriptures . Ex. 3. 14. Es. 43 , 25. 1. Iohn . 4. 8. To this he promised answere and performed it not , though he tooke no small paines by falsifying to discourage the witnesses , but was content to let it lye vpon him vnanswered , so becomming by his own confessiō a dūbe Minister . Now therfore I see no further cause of writing to him , but will turne to the Christian Reader ; giuing him a taste of their dealing , both in writing and practise , profession & conuersation , and yet laying that to their charge wherof due proofe can bee made , as the Reader shall well perceiue by my proofes , & their answers iudging indifferently . They indeede are the men , that accuse others of simplicitie , absurdity , inconstancy in turning their coates , of being hearers and not doers of the word , of retayning open offenders & so becomming cages of euery vncleane bird , of being neither willing nor able to iustifie their estate , and this not alone of their country-men but against those Churches also with whome they liue . 1. But what if themselues haue . 1. betrayed their owne cause in writing . 2 Giuen the blacke letter of condēnation not alone to the churches of Christ that eyther are , or haue beene since the Apostles daies , but also to thēselues , & their practise by their describing of a visible Church ? 3. Doc practise that amongst themselues which they condemne utterly in others , & haue amongst themselues open and notorious cousners , and such other like offendors ? 4. Haue giuen themselues ouer to Sathan , and brought the curse on their owne heads by wicked and vngodly excommunications . Are they then the holy assembly of Saints marching in such a heauenly order after the Lamb , whether soeuer hee goeth , whereunto no vncleane thing entreth , nor remaineth ? whether these accusations bee true or no , let the sequele declare . And first that Master Fr. Ih. hath vtterly disproued the maine drift of all his booke , and so betrayed his owne cause , As Christ alleaged against the Pharises , the example of their owne Children , that they might be their iudges : so may I his owne writings against himselfe , that they may be his iudge , which thus I shew . The drift of His booke is by the description of a true church , to discouer the false . This discription as oft elsewhere , so also he hath , Page 196. last answer to M. Iac : viz. That a true visible Church of Christ , is a company of faithfull people , called out by the word of God , and seperated from the world , and the false waies thereof , gathered and ioyned together in fellowship of the Gospell , by a voluntary profession of the faith and obedience of Christ. And his meaning of this discription doth further appeare by cōparing it with the third false Doctrine alleadged by him , Page 158. of the same booke , as also with the 17. Art : of ther confession , where hee expoundes it , by seperating his Church from vanitye , Idolatrie , dissolute life , and all false workes of darkenes . This discription so propounded and expounded , he thus ouerthroweth , page 47. of the same booke before cited , where he affirmeth , that the Israelites in Egipt were Gods Church , prooues it by Exod. 4. 22. 23. euen then , while they sinned with the Idols of Egipt , alleadging Ezek. 20. If they committed Idolatrie with the Idols of Egipt , how were they then a company of faithfull people seperated from all false wayes ? If he say this their sinne was not their generall estate , as he answers in an other case to M. H. Page 49. The place quoted by himselfe out of Ezek. 20. shewes the contrary , affirming none of them to haue for saken the Idols of Egipt . If he say this their sin was not of obstinacie , the same scripture sheweth that they were admōished , v. 7. yet they rebelled against him . v. 8. And as for the nature of their jdolatry it was heathenish ; will he then say that Idolaters in their generall estate , with heathenish jdolatrie , rebelling after admonition , are such a faithfull people seperate frō all false waies , as he describes a true Church to be ? If not , how were they Gods Church ? To vse Tullies words , testimonium tuum quod in aliena releue est , hoc contrate graue . &c. Thine owne testimony which in an other case is of small weight , this against thy selfe is of much moment . And heere he must remēber that he describeth not a true Church , what it ought to be , but what it is if it bee a true Church as the drift of that place , where this description is set down declares , As that , 1. It is for the clearing the question betwene them . 2. For the discerning of the true church frō the false . 3. Bids M. Iac compare their best asemblies with this description . &c. Otherwise his aduersary might haue answered , that though the Churches of Englād agreed not with that descriptiō , yet might they haue beene true Churches notwithstanding ; and he had writtē nothing to any purpose against him . Moreouer in the answere to the preface of the same booke , Sect. 6. M. Fr. Ih. thus speakes : Any Church though truely constituted , if they will rather abide in error then obey the voice of Christ , are not true churches . And yet the Iewes in Egipt rebelling after admonition , are Gods church by his account : how well these thinges hang together let the Reader judge . In like māner M. Ih. denies not . page 87. of the booke before cited , that the Iewes in Christs time , yea and after his death , were true Churches , which had despised admonition before : Lu. 7. 30. Math. 23. 37. yet this which M. Iohns . acknowledges , M. H. Barrow calles blasphemy : so well they agree together . Is it possible so to ouerthrow the maine drift of his owne writings , and perceiue it not ? Or is it not veryfied which the wise man speaketh ? The euill man is snared by the wickednes of his owne lippes . And yet this booke he saith he did not make alone , but consulted with others heerein , and namely with Maister Ains-worth , a man that hath turned his coate as oft as euer D. B. if not oftner , whome hee tearmes approoued in Christ : and Daniel Studly an elder of ther Church , a man , ( not alone for his filthinesse wlth his wiues Daughter , but also for supporting of manifest & shamefull vncleannes and cousning amongst them in others ) fitter for the stewes thē to be an elder in any christiā society . No better is his dealing in condemning the Dutch & French Churches , for despising their admonition , and yet acknowledge the Iewes in Christ time , to be a true church , dispising more admouition , and that of greater sinnes then euer they admonished the Elders of these Churches of : hée that wauereth in his owne testimony , how shall his witnesse be receiued ? but he is not alone content to confute M. Ih. viz : himselfe , except he doe also by his description cut off from being true churches in their account , all the churches of Christ that euer haue bin since the Apostles daies : 2. now are , yea and 3. thēselues which thus I pooue . If no church that hath beene since the Apostles daies or now is that we reade of , be seperate from al false waies in their accompt , then by his description and in their account must they be no true churches , but the former is true : therefore the latter . The proposition is vndeniable from his owne description . The Assumption is as certaine , as will appeare , in that they account the very using of the Lords Prayer as a Prayer , to be a false way , which was vsed from the Apostles age , as Tertullian saith : Premissa legitima & ordinaria oratione , ius est super struendi extrinsecus petitiones . &c. The lawfull and ordinary prayer ( speaking of the Lordes prayer ) being premised , &c. 2. For the Churches that now are , their dealing with the Dutch and French Churches declare it sufficiently : & howsoeuer they seeme to put difference betweene those churches in the Low Countries whome they haue admonished , and those that they haue not ; yet to put the matter out of doubt , let him tell us if they account it not Apostacy for one of them , so much as once to heare the word preached in any congregation Dutch or French in all the Lowe Countries besides ▪ Or if he can , let him name any one church on the face of the earth now , that holdeth not false wayes , yea euen in their constitution in their account : Neyther shall he shift off the matter with his distinction of faultye and false worshippe , for when hee hath put downe the difference , whereby he distinguisheth the one from the other , which yet he hath not done to my remēbrance , then wil I shew him that there is no church that he can mentiō besides themselues , that holdes not onely faulty , but false waies also in their account , and that in their constitution . Are not they then the blasphemers of the Christians and their churches ? Or is not this to robbe Christ of his honour ? Or may not that saying . Pro. 11. 12. bee veryfied of themselues : Bazleregnehu chasar leb . He that despiseth his neighbour is a foole . 3. But heerein others may pardon them , for they are as fauourable to others as to themselues , for except themselues be agreeable to their owne description , after wounding others , they haue turned the point of their weapon into their owne bowels : that they are not seperate from all open offenders , and all false wayes appeares . 1. In that they retaine amongst them open offendors : to giue instance , one Castle was noted amongst themselues publikely in their meeting for cousnage , and that by one of their elders , and indeede knowne notoriously so to bee , which if M. Ih. doubts of , he may aske his elder Sta : Mercer , their Deacon : Tho. Bishop : W. Knowling , Robert Iackson &c. And yet would M. Ih. with h●s teacher M. A. and the rest of their elders , defend that hee ought not to bee publiquely dealt withall for it , because it was not orderly made publique : and this before many witnesses : neyther did that Castle shew any repentance in like sorte of this sinne . Besides him was not R B. ( after other moste horrible adultery ) publikelye accused in their meeting for creeping in at a windowe to come to bed to an other mans wife in her husbands absence , yet was this man neuer publiquely dealt withall , vntill this day for it , that I can learne . Or if these instances serue not their turne , what will they say to their Elder , Daniel Studley ? ( who together with his filthines afore mentioned , in supporting vncleanes in a woman a member of their church ) did also refuse to pray with his owne wife a member likewise of the same Church , and yet will shew no repentance for thus doing , though he hath beene dealt withall for it ; yea and worse carryage then this , of which his wife hath often and doth continually complaine , which though he be not ashamed to commit , yet I am ashamed to mencyon . I am sure M. Ih. cannot pretend ignorance heerein , for hee hath beene tolde oft of his euill dealing though hee durst not , or would not redresse it . Or if these yet bee not enough , you shall haue more ( if neede be ) as Iudith Holder , Canady , Iaacob Iohnson &c. How are they thē seperate from all open offenders ? or are they not defiled by cōmunicating with such ? Or shall I say fitte members for such a fellowshippe ? If they say this is not in their constitutiō ; I answere yes euen in the constitution they holde false waies , which thus I prooue . 1. In their constitution they holde . First that the Lords prayer is not to be vsed as a Praye , rcontrary to christs expresse cōmaundment , which is neyther against reason nor proportion of faith . Secōdly , contrary to the tenor of the words , hauing the forme of a prayer in all things , as Our Father , giue vs , and amen annexed in the end , which shewes that they arepetitions not positions or rules which are set downe in another forme . Math. 77. 21. 22. 1. Ioh. 5. 14. Thirdly , contrary to the vse of al christians , that wee reade of , as before out of Tertullian and others may be alleadged : 2. They hold also that it is not lawfull for the innocent partyes , to retaine the offēder , as the wife her husbād , or the husband his wife , if either party haue committed adultery , no though the innocēt party vpon the others repentance , forgiuing the others sinne , be desirous still to liue with the other party in the marriage couenant as before , but haue excōmunicated the parties innocent for so doing , as namely H. C. & one Homes his wife , vpon this , diuers of them accused themselues of adulterye , that so they might be ridde of their wiues , as namely one W. Holder and Tho : Canady . 3. They haue altered many thinges which they held in their constitution , as among other , that it was not lawful for Apostates to beare office , then must they confesse that they did hold false waies in their constitution , and so by consequent , then were no , true Churches . 4 But what would it profit them to be free from false waies in their constitution , if their practise bee not according to their profession ? This ( to vse their owne wordes ) makes their sin the more greeuous . And sith their knowledge is but in part aswell as their loue , are not they as well as others subiect to erre in constitution as well as practise ? If M. Fr : Iohnson with his other helpers should yet finde out a further shift , & say that their meaning in their description afore mentioned , is , that A true church must be seperate frō all false waies , which they see , for the preuenting of them therein , I answere : 1. If they had ment onely such false waies , it had beene needefull in the description to haue implyed so much . 2. Though they haue beene already pressed with exceptions against this discription , yet haue they no where as yet taken vp this starting hole that I can perceiue . 3. Yet if now they should , they haue stopped it thēselues , Page . 107. 108. 127. of his last answere to M. Iac. and in other places of their writings . 4. Let them minde , whether enough hath not beene shewed them for the clearing of these errors in their constitution before cited . 5. Whether they giue not their aduersaries aduantage if they should thus answere : Besides that there bee false waies , which though they were held of ignorance , would disanul a company so gathered , from being Gods Church notwithstanding . Thus haue they paued their way with snares , to entrappe themselues . Had not the simple neede to take heede how they take vp wares vpon their credit ? And haue they not abused the world that publish in print , that they neyther receiue nor retaine any such as care not how they borrow and make no conscience to pay againe ? I doubt not but their owne hearts know how false this is , in Io. Nicholas and others . And heere it shall not be amisse to put downe a briefe opposition betweene their true description of a visible Church , and their practise : that so the Reader may the better perceiue the difference between their profession & practise , & this onelye in some few knowne particulars , by this description . First for the Pastor : 1. The Pastor must bee indued with much patience : but their Pastor with much impaciencye , as hath appeared not alone in his dealing with M. Ad : and his Brother G : I. and his threatning to forsake his owne congregation when he was crossed of his minde : all which are discouered alreadye by his brother : Page 126. 143. 144. and knowne to be true by other witnesses , but also in other particulars whereof some shall be after mencioned An angry man stirreth vp strife and a furious man aboundeth intransgression . 2. The Pasto● of the true Church must be louing & cōpassionate , but their Pastor vnnatural & vnmerciful , & that to his own father , yea for the time which his Father was with his Brother G. I. hee would not so much as once see him , or relieue his necessitie , though he were not yet excommunicated frō thē This I heard iustified to his face before many witnesses , and he could not deny it : so true it is , that he that begetteth a foole , begetteth himselfe sorrow , as the wise man speaketh . For the teacher . 1. The teacher of a true Church is sincere : their teacher steined with Hypocrisie , as in his dealing concerning G. I , M. Sl : 2. The teacher of a true Church must bee vnreprooueable : but their teacher is spotted againe and againe with Apostasie in their account as before hath beene noted . 3 , The teacher of the true Church must take diligent care to keepe the Church from errors : their teacher hath beene a meanes to bring in , and defend false Doctrines , as the latter of those two before mencioned and others that may bee alleaged . For the Elders : 1. The Elders of a true Church must bee indued with the spirit of God : their Elder Da : St : with the spirit of vncleanes . 2. The Elders of a true church must see the lawes of God kept : their Elder would defend the transgressing of them in himselfe and others . 3. The Elders of a true church doe gouerne their owne houses orderly : but the Elders mencioned most disorderly as else where is cited . 4. The Elders aforesaid must bee louing : their Elder D : St : cruell and tyranicall , in so much that some of their owne mēbers haue complained , that if they had a matter as cleare as the sunne against him , yet durst they not deale with him for it . 5. The elders of a true church , must be vnreprooueable : but their Elder St : Mer : hath ( as their teacher ) beene noted for Apostasie . For the Deacons : 1. The Deacons of the true Church of Christ , must haue a pure conscience & must not bee giuen to filthy lucre . But their Deacon Christoph : Bow : for his deceiuing of many poore , euē of their owne companye , of halfe that which the Magistrates of Narden had giuen them weekelye , was thereupon ( when it came to light ) through widdow Colgates meanes called Iudas the purse-bearer in Narden for so doing : Not to speake of many such like instances that by him may be giuen . And for the Elders ioyntly : 1. The church of Christ doe priuately admonish a priuate sin of a holy & louing affection : but their Elders could call , R : W : before thē in the first place , for a priuate thing : & threatē her excōmunication for that which after ward for shame they let fall . And for the peoples vncleanes , cousning , disgracing , backe-biting , & vndermining one of another amongst themselues , it is a thing so common and well knowne of them at home and abroad , that I neede not in this place to speake further of it , heauen and earth can beare me witnesse against thē in those things : oh that they would apply vnto themselues and their practise that which the Prophet Ieremie speakes ! Will they steale , murther and commit adulterie &c. And yet crie the temple of the Lord , the temple of the Lord ? Are these then this beautifull ? yea moste wonderful church , rauishing the sences to conceiue of it ? are these the Saints then marching in such a heauenly and gracious aray , where euery stone hath his beauty , his burthen , and his order , where no law is wrongfully wrested , or wilfully neglected , no truth hid or peruerted ? or rather haue they not deluded many poore soules , with such sweete wordes , who when they haue seene their estate , and their expectations so frustrated haue vsed these wordes : They neede neuer seperate themselues , if they liue thus : for any Godly societie will quickely thrust them out from them so practising as they doe Certainely this their description of a visible Church is as cleare a testimony , and as pregnant a sentence of condemnation against themselues and their practise as may be possible . But yet that their hypocrisie may further appeare , let me giue the reader a taste also of their dealing in condemning others , euen in those things that they would and doe practise themselues , & that in these particulers . 1. They condemne others , for communicating with open offenders and yet practise it themselues as is before shewed . 2. For making men to sweare to accuse themselues , yet M. Ih. practised the same to one I. L , and it is moreouer a common practise among them , both publikely and priuately , so to doe , yet would their Elder Dan , Studly neuer so much as denye the matter of incest with his wiues Daughter , for the clearing of himselfe , though hee were requested for the satisfying of weake Btetheren so to doe . 3. They condemne the Dutch churches , for baptising the seede of those that are not members of their church , and yet M. Iohnson with the rest could offer to receiue M. Deuksberies childe to Baptisme , and were offended at G : I : for witstanding it : and yet he neyther was , nor would ioyne himselfe as a member vnto them . 4. In like manner doe they deale with the Dutch churches of Amsterdam , for hauing but one church in the Cittie . And yet M. Iohnson to vrge others to ioyne to them : ( which for diuers disorders amongst them would not so doe ) could alleadge that there was no warrant for two seuerall churches to be in one city in the scriptures . 5. In the place aboue quoted , they giue the like sentence against the Dutch and French Churches , for deciding matters by the elders , without the body of the church , and not suffring in this respect the 18. of Mat rightly to be obserued amōgst them : and yet their Elders , viz : M. Fr : Ih. and his fellowes , could decide one T. Canadyes matter , who had accused himselfe to be rid of his wife , and this without their knowledge or consent : But the said Canady not resting in the Elders determination , brought it to their Church , alleadging that he had iniury done to him , in that W , H could bee seperate frō his wife on his owne accusation of himselfe of adultery , & he could not . And further to iustify the bringing of matters in the third place to their Elders ( for so they practise before the matter bee brought to the whole church ) they could alleadge the very same reasons against M. P. that they had before condemned in the Dutch. And for the 18 , of Mat. how it is made a matter of partialitie and enuie , yea a cloake to couer filthines withal at eueuery pinch amōgst them , would grieue ones heart to consider . 6. They condemne the Dutch & French aforesaid for worshipping God in the Idoll Temples of Antichrist , yet themselues suffer their poore to receiue the almes of the Dutch , which is a Sacrifice , Phil 4. 18. in the same place : and if they giue thāks in receiuing their almes ( as duety both to God & man bindes them to doe ) Then doe they likewise worship God in the Idoll Temples : neyther will it helpe them to say that it is not publique worship , which if they could prooue , yet the commaūdement Deut. 12. if it be moral , as they account it , and must bee executed on these temples , then no ciuill vse of them may be had at all ; much lesse spirituall . 7. They witnesse against the Dutch , for vsing the censure of suspension : And yet themselues , could suspend M. S many moneths together before his excommunication , a man for learning & giftes worthy of his preferment among the dutch , and to good too be of their fellowship . They condemne in others nonresidency , And yet their Deacon D. Br. could neere three quarters of a yere be absent frō their church , saue that twise or thrice , about his Maisters businesse , hee came ouer from London to Amsterdam to buye and sell wares . And this without any leaue of their church at Amsterdam so to doe . How did hee that hath an Office waite on his Office ? 9. Lastly , they passe the like sentence on the Dutch , for becomming one body , with excommunicates , when as they excommunicate their owne members onely for hearing the word so much as preached amongst the Dutch or French , yet are they one body with an excommunicate from the French church themselues . I might heere also note their like dealing with the Dutch , for their obseruation of certaine Holy daies : yet doe these a mē obserue these holy daies as much as the Dutch , as well in shutting their shops , as also hauing their publique meetings for worshippe on these daies : Neyther haue they in so many yeares space had time to debate and discusse this matter among them , as M. Ioh. Answered , Sect. 3. to the Preface , fiue yeares agoe . But it would be long and teadious to bring the manifolde examples that in this kinde may be alleadged , but vntill further ananswere , these may suffice . Now let me aske them , Are these things euill in others and good in them ? or as the Poet speakes iustū non iustum non iustum-iustum quod vobis labet : or wil they say as Medea in Ouid , video meliora proboque deteriora sequor ? But rather wil they heare the Apostle Rom. 2 , 1. 3. What art thou that condemnest another and doest the same ? Or the prophet Ps. 50. 16 , Why takest thou my word in thy mouth & hatest to be reformed ? Or Christ himselfe , hypocrite first cast the beame out of thine owne &c Mat. 7. 5. One would little thinke that knew not their euill dealing that euer they would snatch vp that to serue their owne turne , which they condemne in others . And heere although I might declare their false and impertinent allegation of Scripture , as if it were no sinne to take the name of God in vaine & make the Scripture serue their fancy ; but because this hath beene done already in part by G , I. in his booke page 85 , which yet lyeth on them vnanswered , and vpon further occasion may be further manifested : I will pastle by this , as also their false accusations of whole Chuches , as will appeare by comparing the 7. a accusatiō , with the practice of the Duch Churches , and come to the 4. thing that I proposed , namely , to shewe how they haue drawne the cursse of God on themselues by rash , vniust and wicked excomunication . 1 And heere I may speak of 27 or there abouts euen one halfe of them , at that time , and that of the elder sorte : which all within a very short space were cast out for refusing to come being sent for , to the meeting of the other part , although they answered , that on the suddaine they could not come at so short space and warning , for diuers busines , but would come at any other time which on both sides should bee thought conuenient , And although one of thē H. A. was distracted in minde : but they spared none , & this excommunication was confirmed by the Pastor M. Ih. Howbeit , afterward was this excommunication repealed with fasting and prayer , and acknowledged to be rash and vniust , and all receiued in againe , and they that withstood their receauing in , were on the other side excommunicated . Notwithstanding , after this againe , because their Pastor was vrged to acknowledge his sinne by one of thē , C. S. they were all turned out againe . Such dallying with the Lords ordnances is fearefull . 2. As also how they deliuered diuers to Sathan for hearing the word preached in the Dutch church , though some were encouraged by their pastor and teacher so to doe , and promised to bee borne out in it by themselues , as namely M. S. yet after they brake , promise with him & cast him out . 3. Or what will they say to this ? M. Iohnson with diuers others of their leaders , put downe reasons vnder their hands , that Apostates might : not beare office from the Scriptures , and so practised ; yet after that M. Ainsworthes Apostasie was discouered , to keepe him in office , they altered their judgement and practise , and those that would not be brought to their will , they cast out likewise ; although they would neuer answere their owne reasons in writing , in like sorte as they had set them downe : no nor suffer their owne reasons to be read in their meeting , being requested thereunto . Is not this to play Sathās part to bring men to distruction , and not vse as good meanes to recouer them out againe ? M. Ad. for lesse Apostasie was not suffered to beare an inferior office among them . Besides , they haue cast out W. A. for recalling a former Schisme ; yet the said W. A. did & still doth stand to that acknowledgement which was vnder his hand , wherewith all they were satisfied . Of this I with others haue written to them , but could get no answere ; yet that schisme was for not appealing to the Dutch Churches : and if they doe appeale , then hath M. Ih. with the rest refused vtterly to be tryed by them . 5. Others they haue likewise accursed , that being the parties innocēt desired to liue with the parties offendors , as man and wife together , as before they did in the marriage couenāt , vpon forgiuenes of their sin of adultery as already is mencioned in H C. & one Homes his wife . Another woman they excommunicated , because the brought not her Childe to Baptisme to them , when her husbād had forbid her in any case so to doe , who had likewise reprooued diuers grosse abuses amongst thē , and could receiue neyther answere nor due repentance thereof frō them ; the woman alleaged that Tymothies mother was a faithfull woman , and one that brought vp herson in the feare of God from his Child-hood , yet did she not circumcise him : and no other cause mencioned , but that his Father was a Grecian . 1. Tim. 4. 6. 2. Tim. 1. 5. Act. 16 , 3. whereunto shee could get no answere . Their a Doctor indeede said , that Tymothies mother was dead , and so he might haue said of Moses , and the Prophets too . Their Pastor Maister F. I. made doubt of that Scripture , and staid her excommunication , as saying he would not consent to it : yet after the womā had a little vnfoulded his euill dealing , the same Maister F. Ih. at the same time , could change his note and say , if that none else would , yet would he be the man that should excommunicate her . And indeede asterward they so did , and all that would not yeild to her excōmunicatiō , as namely Mistris S. Widdowe Ch : and R. R. though the chiefe b magistrate of the cittie forbid them so to doe . Diuers other reasons were alleadged about this matter , which we shal haue time to relate , after that we haue seene their answere to this , if they will be at leasure so to doe . Now may I not wish that they had not verified the Orators saying ? He that once passeth the boundes of modesty , becommeth impudent out of measure . Thus doe they abuse the holy ordinance of God to satisfie their owne reuenging stomacks , non it a precipitanter in quenquam torquendum . Is this the long suffering spirit of meekenes in recouering and seeking the lost ? Or doe they not knowe that the curse is not in vaine , if it cleaues not to them to whome it is giuen it lights on the giuer ? Are not then their Bulls of excommunications so many curses on their owne pates ? shall I say to vse their owne allegation out of the Prophet , As he loued cursing so shall it come vnto him , and as he loued not blessing , so shall it be farre from him , and as hee cloathed himselfe with cursing like a rayment , so shall it come into his bowells like water , and like oyle into his bones ? Surelye God that will not holde him guiltles that taketh his name in vaine , will neuer such profanation of his name and ordinance to goe in vaine . And for some of them that are by these accursed I know they haue learned Christ otherwise then so , as to feare the cursse causeles . The Lord promised to Abraham whose children they are , euen manye which they haue cast out , that hee would blesse them that blesse thee , and curse them that cursse thee . &c. And let them say as Dauid of Shimei , It may bee the Lord will doe us good for their cursing this day , yea , let them acknowledge Gods goodnesse towards them in drawing them out of their Tents , as I doe his mercy towards me in keeping me frō ioyning with thē , being yet sometimes addicted too much vnto thē , before I perceiued their fearefull estate . I could cite many other things yet viler , as their Sauadge and cruell dealing to fatherlesse Children : as namely Maister P. and Maister B. his Children , and other such like . But I like not now to saile further in this Ocean , but will content my selfe with the confession of their owne members , W. C. I thought ( said he ) that they had beene all Saints , but I haue found them all deuils , and this before many witnesses : yet is this man still a member amongst them . And for these excommunicators the Lord giue them grace to repent , that they may neuer haue their portion among the cursed , to heare that fearefull sentence , Goe ye cursed : which is the thing I wish them from my heart . Amen . Since then they haue confuted their owne writings , and giuen the black sentence of condemnation to the other Churches of Christ that haue beene , yea and themselues , by their description , and practise that amongst themselues which they condemne in others : let others take heede howe they pertake in their sinnes , least also they taste of their fond excommunications . And for the prophane ( not to speake here of the popish factiō drowned in superstitiō , whole fruites are treachery ) let them not heerby be hardned the more in their sinne , & prophanes , but rather seeing they that ftriue if they striue not lawfully , doe yet misse of the marke they ayme at ; what shall bee the end of those that set not forward at all in the waies of God ? let them remember that the gate is straite and the way narrow that leadeth to life , & the sewnes of those that finde it . And for the Israel of God , The Lord giue them holynesse & peace , without the which , they shall neuer see him to their comfort . Hee that causeth the righteous to goe astray by an euill way , shall fall into his owne pit . Pro. 28. 10. Thine in Christ , Tho : White . Since I had finished this treatise , I heare that Tho : Canady before mencioned , hath liued in Sodometry with his Boy , as the Apostle speakes of the heathen , men with men wrought filthines , &c. and notwithstanding his great wayling , is now cast out , wherin it seemeth they haue forgotten their wonted allegation : If thy brother sinne against thee not alone vntil seuen times , but seuenty times seauen , thou shalt for giue him ; If hee returne againe and say it repenteth me &c. Certaine briefe reasons proouing the vse of the Lords prayer as a Prayer . 1. AN expresse commaundement neyther contrary to nature , nor analogy of Faith , and agreeable also to the drift and tenor of the place , ought litterally to bee vnderstood and obeyed . But this , Mat. 6. 9. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 &c. And Luc. 11. 2. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 say our Father , &c. is such an expresse commaundement &c. ergo It is also so to be vnderstood and vsed . 2. It Christ had taught onely to pray to this effect , then had he taught nothing but that which Iohns Disciples and al the faithful practised before : for the Prayers of the Saints , as of Salomon , Nehemiah , Daniel , were to that effect before . 3. Whatsoeuer Scripture hath in euery respect the forme of Prayer , that is not alone matter of Doctrine , but hath beene vsed also as Prayer . But this Scripture Math. 6. 9. hath in euery respect the forme of Prayer : as , Our Father , giue vs , leade vs , and amen , annexed in the end : ergo . And indeed how can they tell , which were Prayers and which not , if not by their forme of Petition ? wherby they are distinguished from Doctrines , & rules proposed in an other forme , as Mat. 7. 7. & 21. 22 , 1. Ioh. 5. 14. 4. In a duety to bee vsed of all , the holy Ghost is plaine : but if those very words are not to bee vsed as a Prayer , no christian for 1500. yeares & more , did vnderstand our Lords meaning . But they say that the Apostles neuer vsed those very wordes in prayer . I answere : 1. An expresse commaundemēt is warrant sufficient without example . 2. There is no example in the whole booke of Gen : of the obseruation of the Sabaoth for 2369. yeares space after the institution of it . Gen. 2. Neither to come nearer , is their any example of Baptising , in the name of the Father , Sonne and holy Ghost ) yet is the commaundement of Christ sufficient warrant so to doe . Compare Math. 28. 19. with Act. 10. 28. & 19. 5. 3. It is the Anabaptists reasoning against childrens baptisme , asking for an example , whē otherwise there is sufficient warrant so to doe , yet are their Pretences as good or better then M : Iohnsons in refusing obedience to our Lords commaundement for want of an example . 4. The Prayers mencioned in the new Testament , are such as were poured foorth vpon speciall occasion as Act. 4. 24. Ioh. 17. 5. Let them shewe mee an example where euer the Apostles prayed before their Sermons ; if they can . FINIS . Errata . IN the Preface the first line , leaue out ( dangerous ) for Luc. 1. 14. 15. reade Luc. 1. 74. 75. For H. C. read H Cooke . Page . 10-in the margent For latter , ( reade former . ) Page 14 , line 22. Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A15110-e150 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Notes for div A15110-e310 Page . 147. Last answ . to M. Iac. Answere to M. H. Answer to M. Iun. let : As in the True descript : of a visible Ch : Mat. 12. 27 Last answ : to M. la. Last answ : to . M. Iac : Answ : to M. H. page 49. Cic. orat : P. Qu. Last answ : to M. Ia : Page . 196. Last answ : to M. Ia. Refut . of Giff. Pro. 12. 13 Answ : to the pref . Sect. 1. As namely in Iudith Holder and others . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Tertul : lib. de orat : Mr. P. I. L. W. N. and others . Robert Bayly . H. C. Answ : to M H : Page . 202 , last answ : to Ia. Treatise so entituled . Of his booke entituled A discourse of certaine troubles and excom . &c. By M. S. Pro. 17. 21. & 20. 20. 1. Tim , 3. Before M. Powell and others . W. F , & E.H. Page . 157. Page . 63 Iohn Landen . Answ : to Iun. letters page George Ioh. Consisting of so greate a multitude Of adultery . W. Holder . Page . 65. Last answ : to H. I. Rom. 12. M. Ih. &c. a M. Fr : Ih : and the rest . Of the last answ : to M Ia : Plautus . a Neh. 6. 8. Pro. 24. 28. Confess : with Iun : let : page . 54 W. A. W. A. Williā Asplen . Before his departing from them . Hen. Cooke . a And the onely Doctor in the world in their account . b The head skout . Pol. virg : li : 4o. cap. 12 Ps. 109. 17. 18. Ex. 20. 7. Gen. 12. 3. 2. Sam. 16. 12. W. Clerk. Math. 7. 13 Heb. 12. 14 Rom. 1. Mat. 18. 22 Luc. 17. 4. 
A01099	----	A shield of defence against the arrovves of schisme shot abroad by Iean de L'escluse in his advertisment against Mr. Brightman Here vnto is prefixed a declaration touching a booke intituled, The profane schisme of the Brovvnists. By Iohn Fovvler. Clement Saunders. Robert Bulvvarde. Fowler, John, Brownist. 1612 Approx. 129 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 23 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2008-09 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A01099 STC 11212 ESTC S102487 99838270 99838270 2643 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A01099) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 2643) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1475-1640 ; 989:10) A shield of defence against the arrovves of schisme shot abroad by Iean de L'escluse in his advertisment against Mr. Brightman Here vnto is prefixed a declaration touching a booke intituled, The profane schisme of the Brovvnists. By Iohn Fovvler. Clement Saunders. Robert Bulvvarde. Fowler, John, Brownist. Saunders, Clement. aut Bulwarde, Robert. aut 3 leaves, 4-40, [1] p. By Henry Laurenson dvvelling vpon the vvater at the signe of the vvriting booke, Printed at Amsterdam : 1612. A reply to "An advertisement to everie godly reader of Mr. Thomas Brithsman his book" by Jean de L'Écluse, and a clarification of "The prophane schisme of the Brownists" by Christopher Lawne and the authors of the present work. From p. 4 on, even numbers are on the rectos. Reproduction of the original in Cambridge University Library. 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Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng L'Écluse, Jean de. -- Advertisement to everie godly reader of Mr. Thomas Brithsman his book. Prophane schisme of the Brownists. Brownists -- Controversial literature. 2006-12 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2006-12 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2007-06 Elspeth Healey Sampled and proofread 2007-06 Elspeth Healey Text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A SHIELD OF DEFENCE AGAINST THE ARROVVES OF SCHISME Shot abroad by Iean de L'escluse in his advertisment against Mr. BRIGHTMAN . Here vnto is prefixed a declaration touching a booke intituled , The profane schisme of the Brovvnistes . By Iohn Fovvler . Clement Saunders . Robert Bulvvarde . Luk. 12. vers . 2. For there is nothing covered , that shall not be Revealed , neither hid , that shall not be knovvne . Printed at Amsterdam by Henry Laurenson Dvvelling vpon the vvater at the signe of the vvriting booke . 1612. A declaration touching a booke lately printed & entituled , The Profane schesme of the Brovvnistes . CHristian reader , there vvas of late a booke published in London vnder this title , The profane schisme of the Brounistes ; Such a booke indeed vve sent by one of vs to be printed there , but in the publishing thereof great iniury hath bene done vnto vs , & chiefely three vvayes , by addition , by detraction & by alteration of the same : For the first , besides the addition of sundry harsh vvordes & phrases of heresies , blasphemies , diabolus , horrible crimes & c. in such place vvhere they vvere not vsed by vs , vvhich yet according to the doctrine of the Brovvnistes themselves may iustly be applyed vnto them ; besides the addition in the title of the booke vvhich is doubly encreased by the publisher thereof ; beside the addition of the other titles of the severall chapters vvith a nevv table thereof added in stead of that vvhich vve had made ; besides sundry other such additions , there be also added some thinges directly contrary to our meaning & such as never came into our heads , as namely those vvordes in the end of the preface , as also to vvarne all such as haue bene the occasion of those heresies & schismes to conforme themselues to the church of God , that these caterpillars may no more rise out of them . And although vve be & c. By those vvordes the reader might conceive as though vve affirmed those ministers vvhich do refuse subscription & conformity vnto the prelacy & superstitious ceremonies vsed in the church of England , to have bene the occasion of Brovvnisme & guilty of that schisme &c. But the truth is othervvise , there vvere no such vvordes vvritten in the booke vvhich vve sent to be printed , but they are foysted in & obtruded vpon vs by some falsifyer vvithout our knovvledge or consent , Our iudgement is that the tyranny of Lord BBs & their impositions are a stumbling block vnto many that are vveake vvhich do thereby take occasiō to fall from the church & to runne into schisme . VVe assure our selves that if there vvere in the church of England such a reformatiō of the prelacy & ceremonies as is desired by the ministers there & is also obteyned in other reformed churches , there vvould not thē be such a defection vnto Brovvnisme as novv the re is . VVe knovv indeed that the Brounistes do ioyne vvith the prelates in vpbrayding the ministers vvith this thing & vvould seeme to build their separation vpon the testimony of the ministers , as appeareth by this booke of Delescluse , vvhere he labours to conclude their separation from certaine speeches of Mr. Brightman testifying against the corruptions of the church of England , but hovv vniustly & absurdly he hath done the same vve hope it vvil evidently appeare by this refutation follvving . Secondly , there is in summe left out the greatest part of the booke vvhich vve sent to be printed , yea in exact account there is not a fourth part there of that is printed : In speciall there is not a third part of the preface printed vvherein our reasons for the maner of publishing that booke are conteyned ; there is left out a large ansvver vnto a narratiō vvrittē by Mr. Iohnson touching an offer of conference that vvas made vnto him ; likevvise the ansvver vnto the groundes of scripture alledged by M. Iohnson in in defence of separation is left out ; Divers testimonies of Dutch & french ministers against thē be omitted , vvith other vvritinges of Iohn Iohnson & George Iohnson that should have bene printed : The greatest part of the vilest slanders of the Brounistes are left out : The greatest number of the chapters by far is omitted ; that vvhich should have bene the tenth chapter is made the first nine of the first being altogether omitted , besides sundry other in the middes of the booke ; & of those chapters that are there , no one of thē is fully set doune , & in some of thē more thē half the matter omitted : Divers strāge matters are noted in the booke , but the occasiō there of , the profes thereof vvith the ansvver vnto the vaine cavilles & shiftes of the Brounistes about the same are omitted , & in respect of these omissiōs divers thinges so abruptly set dovvne may seeme more harsh & also more incredible vnto the reader ; so that hereby it may easily appeare hovv vve are iniuried by vnreasonable omissions as vvell as by vniust additions . Thirdly , for the method & order of setting dovvne these thinges that are printed , there is great alteratiō therein also : Thinges spokē vpō one occasiō are related vpon an other , & not in their due place ; The speeches of one mā are so set doune as if they had bene spokē by an other ; The speeches of divers men are peeced togather as if they had bene spokē by one & the same person . In these & such like chāges both vve & those vvhose testimonies are alledged by vs have receyved some further iniurye . Besides these thinges there be also as it appeareth many literall faults in the misprinting of sundry vvordes vvhich do much corrupt the sense of sundry thinges in the booke . And though thus many & great iniuries be done vnto vs yet do vvee not hitherto fully vnderstād by vvhō they are done : Onely this vve vnderstād by a letter sēt frō Chr. Lavvne vvho vvas ētrusted vvhich this busines , that the according to the order in such like cases seeking vnto such as vvere appoynted for the allovvāce of bookes to be printed , & leaving it in the hāds of a certaine chaplaine of the Archb to get it read over & vievved ūtill he himself might returne out of the coūtry into vvhich he vvas thē going dovvne before he could come vp to Lōdō againe he foūd the booke already printed cōtrary to his expectatiō , & in the printing thereof so mangled & defaced as is above specifyed . And hovvsoever vve do novv disclayme this booke above mentioned as none of ours being thus corruptly printed vvith such additions , omissions & alterations , yet do vve still acknovvledge that all the particular matters of fact recorded against the the Brvvonistes in that booke are such tiges as vvere takē out of our vvriting ▪ & for proofe thereof vve are able & ready to produce our testimony & vvitnesse as occasion shall requi●e ; The most of thē are testifyed & cōfessed by thēselves & the most heynous thinges evē vnder their ovvne hād vvriting ; & the rest are such thīges as either vve our selves or others vvil vvitnesse . And therfore though vve complaine Brovvnistes insult there vpon ; though vve be vvronged , yet are not they cleared from the matters there noted vvhich are still in force against them . Our desire & our purpose is hereafter as occasion , opportuinty & meanes shal be offred more fully to manifest their Profane schisme by the publishing of those thinges vvhich formerly have bene omitted , & in the meane time vve do here present vnto the reader a fevv observations vpon the advertisement of Iean Delescluse vvhich he hath vvritten against Mr. Brightman & against the communion of saintes ; His perverse collections for separation dravvne from Mr. Brightman his Testimony , vve have here shevved to be vaine & vvicked . The principles of Brovvnisme vvhich he hath briefely alledged are here breefely ansvverd , yet so as that the vanity & errour of their separation may be easily discerned hereby : This labour vve have vndertaken cheefely for the comfort & helpe of those vveake brethren , vvho either do not sufficiently vnderstād the iniquity of this errour of the Brounistes or els do not duely consider the danger of this schisme vvhich as it dayly breakes it self in pieces , so vvould it also break , ruinate & overthrovv all the churches that should admit & receyve the same . vvhen corruptions do encrease & are maynteyned , let the godly vvitnesse against the same , but let them not fret vnto separation , & so shall they vvalke vvith Christe in vvhite , Reu. 3. 4. An ansvver vnto the advertisement of Iean Delescluse concerning Mr. Brightman vpon the Apocalyps . 1. WHereas in his title he pretendes to advertise the godly reader , whom afterward in his Epistle he calles Gentle reader and Christian reader , marke how this man doth mocke his reader ; for by his profession of Brownisme he holdes all the membres of the church of England to be no visible Christians , to be without true faith & without godlines , even eve-ry one as they are publique professours of the gospel in that church & yet here in this flattering title of his English booke he dissembles notably as though he would honour & record their godlines ; And thus in the very forehead of his booke , his hypocrisy beginnes to shew it self . 2. VVHereas in his title he takes on him to advertise every godly reader of Mr. Tho. Brightmā his booke , how absurd & senselesse is it ? There be many godly readers of Mr. Brightmās booke which vnderstād no English at al , seing it is extant in Latine , & yet he writes in English to advertise every one of them . 3. IN the same place he alledgeth against the church of England that saying of the Prophet 1. Kim 18. 21. How long halt ye betweene two opinions ? If the lord be God follow him , but if Baal be he then go after him . This is vniustly applied against them who are assured of their lawfull communion with that church ; but this sentence or the like may much more fitly be alledged against the divided & distracted Brownistes , who halt betweene two opinions , & betweene two communions , some halting after the Franciscane order , sone limping after the Ainsworthian & popular order , some hanging in doubt betwixt both opinions , so that they dare not ioyne to either of them , but walk alone . 4. THe first cause which mooved him to put forth this writing in defence of the separatiō , he sets downe in these wordes : * First the glory of my God etc. what meanes he by this speech of his God , in saying , the glory of my God ? Hath he and his flock a speciall God of his owne more then other churches of Christe ? It is true indeed that David & other faithful servants of God do often with the voyce of faith vse to speak of God in this manner , my king and my God as Ps . 84. 3. but yet if we looke a litle further into the profession of the Brownistes we may easily imagine some other cause of their speaking on this manner : for whereas R. R. in his prophecying among the prophets of Mr. Anisworthes company testifyed against their separation & iustifyed the church of England to be a true church , being for this vniustly excommunicate of that company it was as vniustly defended by Mr. Ainsworth , who layd this groud of his excommunicatiō frō Deu. 13. 1. 2. &c. that he had sought to turne thē away frō the Lord their God & had perswaded them to go after other Gods and to serve thē , & all this onely for perswading that it was lawfull to heare a sermō in the church of Engl. to pray with thē &c : In this proceeding they declare that they hold the church of Engl. to be withovt the true God in that they cōdemne those that ioyne with the same to turne away frō the Lord their God & to go after other God● and therfore no marvel if according to this opinion they speak of their special God , intending an other God whom we know not . This may yet further appeare in the speech of Delecluse who being blamed for his schisme from the french church hath here vpon cōdemned that reformed church as having Christe to be neither their King , priest nor Prophet : And if they be without Christe then are they without true God , Ioh. 2. Epist . vers . 9. and Ioh. 17. 3. According to these speeches it is not strange nor inconsequent that he should meane his speciall God in the forenamed phrase . Iemar the monstro●s Arrian pretending that we erre about the nature of Christe doth blasphemously affirme that our God is no better then the planke vnder his foote , Delescluse the inordinate Brownist pretending that Christe is not our king doth hereby sacrilegiously both deprive Christe , of his people & his people of their God , their saviour & their mediatour : And thus while he pretendes the glory of his God , he treades vnder his feete the glory of that everlasting God , who is the God & king of all the reformed churches round about . 5. AGaine in his declaratiō of this first moving cause that made him to publish this treati●e in defence of Brownisme , he alledgeth divers scriptures which teach that the people of God ought to be holy as the Lord is holy , as namely , Levit. 19. 2. 1. Pet. 1. 5. 16. But what meanes he by this ? Can not the people of God be holy & sanctifyed vnlesse they separate from the churches as the Brownistes doe ? or can they not give glory vnto God without their separation ? we see the contrary throughout the scriptures ; the , * holy Prophets , the holy Apostles , and Iesus Christe that holy one of God did keepe a holy communion among open obstinate sinners and glorified God thereby and this also in a church that was far more corrupt than that reformed church from which this Delescluse hath schismed and runne away ▪ 6. VNto his other allegation , that all those that call vpon the name of Christe should depart from iniquitye , 2. Tim. 2. 19. It may also be answered as the former that the most holy servants of God , most zealous of his glory have kept communion which open sinners as offensiue as 〈…〉 the church of England , & yet departed from iniquity : It is a great 〈◊〉 in schismatiques that cannot distinguish betwixt departing from iniquity and departing from a church where iniquity is tolerated . Christe 〈…〉 iniquity of the Pharisees and Sadducees and and yet departed 〈…〉 fellowship of that church , where in they remayned . 7. THe second reason which he alledges for his writing of this treatise is the fervent desire which ( he sayth ) he hath of the salvation of mens soules and the gayning of them vnto God , If this be so ( as he boasteth ) we do prayse and commend him for it , but yet if he had bene as sober and modest as he is fervent , he would not have bene so forward to prayse his owne fervency , in that we commend him not , nor yet in this , that he seemes to seeke the salvation of mens soules by leading them into his schisme or separation . 8. IN the declaration of this second reason he telles vs that the meanes of saying soules is to shew vnto the their erring from the truth and from going astray out of the way , Iam. 5. 19. 20. : But how vnfit a man is Iean delescluse for such a purpose ? Do not all the Brownistes generally know and consider how prone this man is to runne into errour and to go astray out of the way before many others ? Among all their Prophets is there any which in the exercise of prophecy have so often bene corrected for errour as this man ? His manner is indeed to be fervent and hote , but in his heate so rash and inconsiderate that often he vtters erroneous thinges and often by Mr. Iohnson and Daniel studly hath he bene reproved and convicted of the same . He that hath so often receyved open shame and rebuke for his errour is not so meete a man to become the censurer of so learned and iudicious a writer as Mr. Brightman is generally acknowledged to be . 9. THe third reason which he alledgeth for the publishing of this treatise , is in respect of him self , having had a hand both in the translating and printing of Mr. Britghtman his booke etc. But of this he may speake with shame enough in respect of his vnfaithfull dealing herein : for being appoynted by his maisters that set him on worke to print this booke & that without any leave to comment vpon it or to adde his censures , what doth this coosening companion but goes & causeth his gloses to be printed in the margent of this booke ? He there lets downe in opposition vnto Mr. Brightman , his contradictions of him , his interrogations , his exclamations against him O England etc. O Brightman etc. Yea his citations of him vnto indgement , let God and his angelles and all the world indge etc. And thus without the consent or license of those that employed him in their busines , he defaces & disgraceth the work committed vnto him , offendeth his maisters , wronges the reader , & iniurieth the authour of the books who now sleepeth in peace with the Lord : But when this his deceit was found out , those that were at cost & charges for the printing of this booke did then call him to account for this his bad daaling & in fine compelled him at his owne charges to take the paines to alter and set over againe those sheetes of the booke which he had corrupted & defaced with his marginall gloses & then to leave out those gloses which he had before so boldly & deceitfully inserted in that worke : for the evidence & truth of this matter we have both the testimony of those that set him on worke , as also his owne handy-work to reprove him , viz. the misprinted sheetes , the tokens of his deceit , which we keep by vs for a monument of his falshood . The truth is that Iean Delescluse did fret & chafe when this rebuke was layd vpon him , but howsoever part of his punishment was remitted vnto him , yet was there no remedy , divers sheetes must needes be printed againe & he must endure the paine & labour for the setting of the same : And thus we may see the saying of the wise man to be verifyed in him , The deceitfull man costeth not that which he tooke in hunting , Prov. 12. 27. The wages which he got by setting those sheets deceitfully at first was not so much , but the labour the losse & the shame withall which he had at the reprinting thereof may well be thought to be much more . 10. IN the declaration of this his third reason , he telles vs of his full perswasion that there be errours & abberrations in Mr. Br. his book & therfore addeth further ; If I had held my peace and sayd nothing I could not have cleared my self from partaking with other mens synnes ; and so should have done contrary to that holy commandement of the apostle to Timothy , 1. Tim. 5. 22. According to this profession of conscience , if it be vnfeigned in him , it may be further demanded of him . 1. VVhy did he not also put forth some short writing against the latine editiō of Mr. Br. his booke , seing he the same Iean Delescluse had also a hand in the printing of it heretofore ? That book in latine hath bene out now these divers yeares ; & never till this time hath he cleared himself by any writing against it , so long therfore he may seeme to have partaken with an other mans sinne . 2. VVhereas Mr. Th. hath hath had a hand in the printing of Mr. Robinsons booke against Mr. Bernard , & there being in it divers errours & aberratiōs from the truth of the living God , & this not onely in the iudgement of Mr. Iohnson who hath openly protested against the manifold errours therein , but also in the iudgement of Mr. Ainsworth himself & his company , how comes it now to passe that Mr. Th. hath not the like care & conscience to put forah some short writing against that booke as wel as Delescluse against Mr. Br. his booke ? why doth not I. Delescluse call vpon his fellow in like manner ? why doth he suffer Mr. Th. to partake with Mr. Robinsons errours by printing his booke ? 3. VVhereas this Iean Delescluse was heretofore a cardmaker , seing he hath had a hand in making those cardes that are the bookes of gamesters & idle persons seing many persons might be offended & scandalized by the vse of those play-bookes , why hath he not had the conscience to put forth some short writing against those bookes of vanity ? why is he not afraid of partaking with the sinnes of those gamesters whose handes have handled the cardes that were the worke of his hādes ? VVhy did he never yet cleare himself of this evill ? A good conscience is without * partiality & seekes to prevent one offence as wel as an other . VVhat can he answer to these thinges ? when he hath answered these thinges , we have sundry more such like to demand of him . 11. BEsides his partiality above noted , marke his folly also in this dealing , for if it were no sin to have a hand in the printing of Mr. Brightmans booke , thē what neede he to seek the clearing of himself by writing against the booke : if it were a sin to have a hand in the printing thereof , thē how foolish is he to think he could by an after testification cleare himself from that sinne which he did first willingly commit ? If this were a watrrantable course why might he not still follow his old trade of cardmaking & then afterwardes cleare himself by witnessing & writing against them ? why might he not also make idoles or images & afterwardes cleare himself frō partaking with the sinne of Idolatours by testifying against them ? Behold here the extreme absurdity of the Brownistes who condemne our communiō where we duely testify against the evilles cōmitted by others whiles they think to iustify themselves by testifying against those evilles in the committing whereof they them selves have a hand . 2. In a due testification against evill , the testimony ought to be as large as the evill , the plaister ought to be as large as the soare ; but Delescluse is vncertayne whether his writing ( which he countes a plaister for the errours and sores in Mr. Br. his booke ) shall ever spread so far as Mr. Br. his booke , & therfore it must needes be folly and sin in him that shall voluntarily and wilfully publish such thinges which he accountes as stumbling blockes layd before the blinde , while he is ignorant whether his labour shall ever come so far as to help the removall thereof in many places . 12. IN the subscription of his Epistle he vnder writes thus Thine as thou art the Lordes Iean Delescluse , that is to say , Thine as thou art a Brewnist and a separatist , for al the promises of God and of salvation , they do oft appropriate vnto those that separate : Those onely they declare to be the lords as touching their visible estate : Therfore howsoever he wold seeme to professe friendship , it is but hypocrisy : beware of such f●endes . 13. LEt vs now come from his Epistle to the book it self , where in he takes vpon him to shew how corruptly Mr. Brightman hath taught that the church of England is not to be separated from not withstanding all the sinnes and abhominations that are in the same : This poynt he sets downe both in the title of his booke and in his Epistle againe , as the butte or white at which he meanes to shoote , against this make he bendes his bow and prepares his arrowes vpon the stinge : And for the proofe of this poynt he sets downe ten speciall speeches which Mr. Brightman hath vttred touching the corruptions of the church of England . The first speech he * alledgeth are these wordes of Mr. Brightman , I could not but mourne from the bottome of my heart , when I beheld in her Christe loathing vs , and very greatly provoked against vs. Here vpon Iean Deslescluse inferreth thus : I desire the reader to observe the word which he vseth of Christe lothing them , which word of loathing seemeth to be taken from the 95. Psal . vers . 10. Where the Prophet speaking in the person of the Lord him self , sayth that fourty yeares long he had loathed that generation : saying that they are a people ●rring in their heart and not knowing his wayes , wherfore he sware in his wrath that they should not enter into his rest . So that by Mr. Brightmans owne grant , this church of England is in no better estate then were these rebelles in the wildernes , all which were consumed and entred not into his rest as he had sworne . First , this inference of Delescluse is vtterly false , for though Mr. B. should grant the same phrase to be vsed both of England & Israel , yet doth it not follow by this grant , that England is in no better estate then those rebelles in the wildernes ; for the holy ghost often vseth ore & the same generall worde or phrase touching divers sinners which yet not with standing may not therfore be all alike so condemned , but that some of them may be in better estate then others : for example , it is sayd that the Lord was angry with Israel in the dayes of Iehoahaz , 2. kin , 13. 3. It is also sayd in the like phrase of speech that the wrath of the Lord was kindled against Israel in the dayes of David , 2. Sam. 24. 1. Doth it now follow that Israel in the dayes of David was in no better estate then in the dayes of Iehoahaz ? The contrary is most evident & plaine , Israel being at one time a true church & at th' other a false church by the * confession of the Brownistes themselves : It is sayd in one generall phrase , I hate all false wayes , Ps . 119. 128. Now it is one false way to be hated or loathed that the high places were reteyned in the dayes of Iehoash & others 2. kin . 12. 3. & 14. 4. It was an other false way that the goldē calves & Baal were worshipped by the kinges of Israel : doth it now follow that these people were one of them in no better estate then the other , because the phrase of hating or loathing might be vsed against both of them ? Nothing lesse . To come neerer vnto them ; Mr. Robinson accounting it a false way & a violation of Gods ordinance in Mr. Ainsworthes company that they have no separation of their aimes among them , it followes herevpon that in his account also the word of loathing or hating may be vsed against them , seing every false way reteyned is to be loathed ; And further Mr. Robinson holdes it a false way & order of government that is practised in Mr. Iohnsons church , which is therfore also to be loathed by them : Doth it now follow from hence that by this graunt Mr. Ainsworthes company is in no better estate then Mr. Iohnsons , because of the same word of loathing attributed vnto both of them ? Nothing lesse . The matter being thus made plaine vnto them , the simplest among them may see , what a corrupt & blinde maner of reasoning is here vsed by their elder Delescluse . Secondly , suppose it were granted that the church of Tsrael were in no better estate then Israel in the wildernes , yet what is this to the scope and purpose of his booke ? Doth this prove that the church of England is therfore to be separated from ? Nay , the contrary appeareth hence , seing it is vndeniably true that even Israel in the wildernes notwithstanding all their abhominations which the Lord loathed were yet a true church and communion with them was lawfull , as appeares in the example of Moses , Ioshua , Aaron and other faithfull servants of God remayning among them ; And therfore so might it be with England also though being in no better estate . And thus the same arrow that he shootes at vs returnes vpon himself and pearceth the side of his owne separation . 14. IN the next place he procedes & labours to perswade his reader , that the Lord hath more iust cause to wath the church of England , then that of the Israelites in the wildernes : VVel , suppose now , that this also were granted vnto him , would this prove that we should then separate from England ? In no sort ; for the Lord had more cause to loath the church of Israel in the dayes of Christe , then in the wildernes , And yet even then also there was a lawfull communion with that church when the measure of their iniquity was greater , and when there was a greater then Moses to convince them of that wickednes : And thus we see how that still he comes short of the mark he shootes at , seing greater abhominations then those of Israel in the desert are yet no sufficient ground of separation . 15. FOr the further declaration of this matter , let vs a litle examine his particular instances here alledged by him , first ( sayth he ) that church had a true ministery , and true offices and officers , and so hath not the church of England by Mr. Brightmans owne graunt . First , let it be considered how vnworthy a thing it is , that this man which is himself an vsurper and a false officer should thus take vpon him to dispute about the ministery and the offices in the churches of God : for first , when he was yet with Mr. Iohnson , he was then a false officer , that whole company being in schisme & therfore a false church yeelding no lawfull officers ; 2ly , suppose Mr. Iohnsons company had bene a true church , and he a true officer in it yet seing he hath now schismed from that company , and was also deposed from his office by Mr. Iohnson and his assistants , how can he in this schisme be reputed a true minister ? 3ly , when he was yet a member of the french chuch and did there earnestly seek an office , after tryall of his giftes he was repelled and iudged insufficient and vnmeete to be a minister : Now then shall he that was both Kept out from entring into an office as vnworthy , and againe thrust out of an office as vnworthy after he had entred , and this both by a true reformed church and by the Brownistes themselves , shall this vnworthy person come now and in the middes of his vnworthines pronounce sentence touching the truth or falshood of offices & ministeries in the church ? Secondly , let it be considred , how he abuseth & wrongeth Mr. Brightman in saying that the church of England hath not a true ministery , offices & officers & that by Mr. Brightmans owne graunt : for though Mr. Br. do iustly complaine that the church of England wanteth some offices which it should have , & againe that it hath some officers which it should not have , yet doth he not affirme a true ministery to be altogather wanting , he doth not deny but that there are some true offices & officers therein . Thirdly , though there be that defect in the ministery of the church of Engl. which Mr. Brighman noteth , how doth Delescluse prove from thence , that separation must reedes follow ? for this he bringes not so much as any shew of proofe from the scriptures to iustify such a consequence 16. THat second particular exception which he bringeth touching persecution by the officers in the church of England is againe repeated by him in his tenth speech of Mr. Brightmans which he alledgeth & is there answered , for which see the 38. section following . 17. THe third particular differēce which he affirmeth to have bene betwixt Israel & Eng. is , that their governmēt in Israel was not a mixt governemēt partiy of the Egiptians , partly of the Moabites and Edomites or Cananeans , but simple and and pure according to the true patterne shewed to Moses in the mount ; but that of England is not so , for Mr. Brightman affirmeth it to be partly Romish and partly reformed etc. First , if it be true that Mr. Robinson writeth , viz. that the church officers , the priests & levites in the Iewish church to whō the charge of the whole congregation for the service of the tabernackle did appertayne , had no authority by the order of their office to inflict any censure spiritually vpon the people , but onely to interpret the law ett . Answ . to Mr. Bern. pag. 198. then is all this idle which Delescluse doth here speak of their government : If the ecclesiasticall officers did exercise no government at all , then is it in vayne to dispute of the purity of a thing that was nothing . Secondly , if that excommunication or dissynagogueing noted Ioh. 9. 22. was but a Iewish devise and without warrant of the scriptures , as both * Mr. Robinson doth write , and Mr. Smith also hath written before him , then was the governmēt of the Iewes a devised governemēt , an Impure ād mixt governemēt , partly divine and partly humane ; and yet not with standing this mixt government we see there was then a lawfull communion ; that mixture of devised governemēt was no ground of separation , as this Delescluse would vainely collect against Mr. Britghman and against the church of England . Thirdly , if a mixt governement be a ground of separation , then is Mr. Ainsworthes company to be reiected seing it doth exercise a popular confused and mixt government , consisting partly in the power of the officers , but chiefely in the power of the people : And thus the collection of Delescluse serves to overthrow his owne governement : And the shame of this their mixed governemēt which Mr. Iohnson hath affirmed to be worse then the goverement of the church of England , doth in this respect lye the more heavily on them in that Mr. Iohnson hath also in a printed booke condemned the same , which booke the Ainswort hians have not yet answerd . 18. THe fourth particular instance which he bringeth to prove the difference betwixt Israel & England is this : None of that church ( sayth he ) were admitted vnto any office but onely such as were lawfully called therevnto as Aaron was , but so it is not in England etc. First , it is onely the bare affirmati of Delescluse that sayth of the church of Israel that none were there admitted vnto any office but onely such as were lawfully called as Aaronwas ; where is his proofe from the scriptures where of he boasted in his Epistle . Secondly , it is a false affirmation of Delescluse , for when Annas & Caiaphas did enterchangeably execute the high priestes office , as appeareth Luk. 3. 2. Ioh. 11. 51. it was not possible that both of them could be lawfully admitted vnto the execution of that office which was peculiar vnto one man during his life . Thirdly , seing Mr. Iohnson hath offred to prove vnto Mr. Ainsworth & his company that in their popular governement they are like ▪ vnto Korah & his company ambitiously vsurping an office wherevnto they are not lawfully called & that vpon the Korites ground , Numb . 16. 3. it had bene much fitter that Mr. Ainsworth or Delescluse should have defended & cleared themselves of the evill which they lay vpon others by writing against Mr. iohnson about these thinges while he is yet alive to auswer for himself , rather then to wri●e against Mr. Bright man that is dead & now resteth from his labours in the Lord , especially seing Mr. iohnson hath so often entreated , provoked & vrged Mr. Ainsworth therevnto & that openly in their congregation , before the rent was made : Yea besides respect of the matter it self , are they not specially bound for their old covenant sake to shew the Franciscanes their errour & that by writing rather then to deale with strangers . 19. FRom these instances above mentioned he drawes a terrible conclusion on this manner , Therefore it doth necessarily follow that the estate of the church of England is worse then was the estate of those rebelles in the wildernes , & that there is nothing to be expected from Christe , by any member thereof , but a powring out of his eternal wrath vpon them . In this peremptory sentence which he denounceth against the church of England he takes on him as if he would seeme to be one of those sevē angelles which having their breastes g●●ded with golden girdles do stand with the vialles of Gods wrath in their handes to powre ●ut ●is vengeance on the wicked , but the truth is he is rather in this his doome like one of the angelles of Sathan that accuse the brethren condemning those whom God hath iusti●yed : By this sentence he doth at once extinguish & quench the whole light & comfort of the gospell , which teacheth that there is no condemnation to those that are in Christe & beleeve in his name , Rom 3. 28. and 8. 1. For such beleeves there are many in the church of England holding that doctrine of faith & iustification whereby the faithfull & the saintes in al the reformed churches do hope to ente● into life everlasting , & that whereby the Brownistes themselves must be saved if ever they enter into glory : Now to denounce the aeternall wrath of Christe to those that have true faith , what is it els but to abolish the gospell , to destroy faith & to make it of no effect ? If an angell frō heaven should come & preach vnto vs as Delescluse here hath done , yet ought we not to receive him , Gal. 1. 8. But here the Brownistes obiect that true fayth shewes it self by workes , which ( they say ) are apparantly evill in the church of England . First , their faith sheweth it self by these fruites , by their ioy in the Lord , their cōtinuall study & delight in the word of God their cōtinuall invocatiō of the name of God every day , their delight in the Sabath , their love of the godly for the truth sake , their vnfeigned sorow for their sinnes , their patiēce for the testimony of Christe , & sundry other such like fruites which are the vndoubted & certaine to kens of true saith , Ps . 89. 15. Ps . 1. 2. Ioel. 2. 32. Esa . 56. 4. 5. 6. Mat. 10. 41. 42. Mat. 5. 4. 10. 11. Secondly , suppose other of their workes be evill ▪ suppose also that their refusall of separation were a sin , yet seing it cannot be thought other then a sinne of ignorance & that God had not opened their eyes in this matter , what an absurd & wicked thing is it in this estate to pronounce of them all without exception , that there is nothing to be expected from Christe by any member thereof , but a powring out of his aeternall wrath vpon them , for who can vnderstand his faults and who is it but that he sinnes of ignorance , and why not in the mysterie of the separation as well as in others , especially it being such a poynt as the members of all other true churches can not comprehend the same ? Not with standing such errours the members of the church of England may be vpright with the Lord and accepted of him and made partakers of eternall salvation , Ps . 19. 13. 1. Cor. 13. 9. with 1. Cor. 1. 30. Ps . 32. 1. 2. But to salve or mitigate this their vnchristian and hard sentence , they tell vs that in such maner of sentences and iudgements they speak respectively , viz. that the faithfull in England cannot be accounted true Christians in respect of their ministery , in respect of their constitution , in respect of their estate , being so considered etc. In this exception the Brownistes do shew their vanity in seeking out frivolous pretences to colour their rash iudgements ; for first , when as true and ●ound iudgemēt is to be given touching the estate of a Christian and an heire of salvation , he is then to be considred not by the halfes or by some such and such respects onely , but wholly and entirely with all his respectes togather . And so a faithfull man considered not apart from his errours and ignorances but considered togather with them and with his faith is yet to be iudged and that absolutely a true Christian & an heire of salvation , suppose there besome manifest errours and offences vpon him yet his faith shewing it self in other manifest fruites thereof is a visible cover for all his offences , seing the Lord hath manifested in his word that faith alone doth iustify and lay hold on everlasting righteousnes , Gal. 2. 16. and 3. 7. Eph. 2. 8. and therfore such a one in his outward estate and profession is still a visible Christian notwithstanding any other visible iniquities wherein he ignorantly continueth . Secondly , when Christe at his last comming shall pronounce iudgement , he will not consider men apart frō their constitution , ministery , governement etc. he will not say in such respect I condemne thee and in such respect I do iustify thee and save thee , but he doth absolutely pronounce sentence either of salvation or condemnation , And this iudgement of the Lord is generally manifested in his word & according to his word will he iudge at the last day , Ioh. 12. 48. Mark. 16. 16. and therfore according to this word of the Lord the estate of of mē is absolutely to be declared without such respective cōsiderations and exceptions . If the questiō had bene onely about the reproofe of some particular sin in any persō , or about the comparing of one person with an other thē might they have iudged herein respectively ; for the mā that is a true Christiā may in some respect be worthily reprehended & may in some respect be vnlike vnto others ; but when the question is about the iudgement of a true Christian & about his obteyning of salvation , then are such partiall & respective considerations idle & of no vse : A man is in such case either absolutely to be condemned or absolutely to be iustifyed & acquit . Thirdly , according to that respective iudgement , every church yea every person in the world should be condemned & stand vnder the wrath of God , because every church & every person doth erre & commit sin & in that respect being considered apart from Christe is accursed , And according to this respective iudment of the Brownistes , Delesculse in respect of those eleven corruptions which they lay vpon the reformed churches ( supposing they were iustly imputed vnto them ) might in like manner accordingly have pronounced of them all , that there is nothing to be expected from Christe , by any member thereof , but a powring out of his eternall wrath vpon them , seing no sin is in it self veniall , al sinnes with out f●●th in him do bring eternall wrath , as well one as an other . And in like maner Mr. Iohnson holding the same corruptions in the reformed dutch & french churches , might in this respect say of thē all as he * sayth of England , that they stand all subiect to wrath , God imputing this their sinne vnto them . For any one of the least sinnes do make men subiect to wrath God imputing the same vnto them . Lastly , Mr. Iohnson ( as he telleth vs himself ) whensoever he vttred his hard sentence against the church of England did alwayes speak with caution and added some of these clauses , being so considred , in that estate , in that 〈◊〉 . But here Delescluse without any caution or clause of consideration shuts them vp all vnder eternall wrath , makes his arrowes drun●ken with the blood of soules , & will needes have them all to drinck the cup of indignation from his hand with no lesse sin & drunkennes of errour then when he had drunken that cup of magis whereof Iacob Iohnson is sayd to have admonished him , he doth in this place as vainely condemne the faithfull for no sheepe of Christe , as he did then commend the same Iacob Iohnson to be a fit pastour for his sheepe . 20. THe second speech of Mr. Brightman alledged to shew that he doth corruptly teach against the separation is this , viz. that the most mighty king Henry had expelled the pope , but reteyned the popish superstition . Note here the folly of Delescluse , that would prove a separation in one time by the corruptions & superstitions of an other time : as though he should say : In king Henries time there were many superstitions , therfore in Queene Elizabeths time there ought to be a separation notwithstanding all the reformation that was procured by her meanes : what sober man would so argue ? 21. FVrther , whereas Delescluse sayth that the pope cannot properly be sayd to be expelled when his doctrine and superstition is retepned , it is a vayne Cavill , for first , if he stand so precisely vpon propriety of speech , the pope can not properly be sayd to be expelled , no not then where his doctrine and superstition is expelled ; It is a figurative speech to note the popish doctrine and superstition vnder the name of the pope himself . 2ly , it is yet a true and a fit speech in Mr. Brightman to say that the pope was expelled when the iurisdiction of the pope and the supremacy formerly annexed vnto his person was denyed and reiected , when he was no longer acknowledged to be the head of that church , when that which was vniustly arrogated vnto the person of the pope was translated vnto the person of the king as it was in King Henries dayes : even as the venetians at this day might very fitly be sayd to expell the pope , if they would vtterly deny his supremacy both in civill and Ecclesiastcall causes , howsoever they might reteyne many popish superstitions . 2. THe third speech of Mr. Bright man which he bringes against him to prove a separation from the church of England is this , that there is such a forme of church established as is neither cold nor hote , but set in the middes and made of both , etc. These wordes Mr. B. vttred in comparing the church of Laodicea & England togather , as the type and antitype vnto one an other ; That which he sayth of England he takes frō Laodicea which is also declared to be neither hote nor cold , Rev. 3. 15. 16. so that by this manner of arguing he might as well prove a separation from the church of Laodicea in respect of the lukewarmnes which the holy ghost shewes to have bene found therein . But that it is most erroneous so to reason , Christe plainely teacheth vs while he telles vs that this church was still a golden candlestick , that the angell thereof was a starre in his right hand , & that he himself would still sup & communicate with that church ; And therfore so also may the church of England be reputed not with standing the same or the like luke warmnes . 23. VVIth this third speech he desires that this which he hath set downe for the fift charge may be ioyned , where Mr. B. sayth , that no other cause can be brought of their lukewarmnes , the popish governement mingled with the pure doctrine , then the love of riches and honours . And what can he conclude hence ? VVhat though they were covetous & ambitious given to the love of riches & honors & so became lukewarme ? shall this be a iust cause of separation from the church ? No ; for the scribes & Pharisees were also covetous & ambitious , Mat. 23. 5. etc. Luk. 16. 14. & yet cōmunion with them was lawfull . 24. HE desires further that this complaint of lukewarmnes may be compared with that prayse of reformation which Mr. Br. gives vnto the church of England in the title of his epistle dedicatory : VVel , being compared with the same it may well stand togather with it , for reformed churches may yet have lukewarme ministers & many other greevous corruptions to be complayned of : yea doth not Delescluse condemne himself in this matter ? for doth not he also in the title of his booke & in his epistle written to the English readers entitle thē with the name of godly reader and Christian reader ? And is there any god ●ine● without reformation ? Is there any Christian that is not reformed ? VVhy then may not Mr. B. call those holy & reformed whom Delescluse doth call godly and Christian ? 25. HE demandes still in the same place & sayth ; Is it possible that holynes and vnholynes can raigne togather ? VVe answer ; Yea , in one & the same church in the divers members thereof , as in the church of the iewes , holynes raygned in Christe & his disciples , vnholynes raigned in the scribes and Pharisees &c. 26. HE yet demandes againe & saith , Is there any communion betweene Christe and Anti-christe ? betweene light and darknes ? betweene Idolles and the true God ? Can any kingdome , any church , any family , any man submit vnto the governement of Anti-christe and not be defiled . VVe answer , though Christe & Anti-christe be enimies , yet the servants of Christe may lawfully communicate in that church where many abhominations of Anti-christe are to be seene , sor as francis wingrave a Brownist doth truely acknowledge , Every abhomination of Anti-thriste doth not make a church to become Anti-christian for the best churches are subiect to errour and some abhominations of Anti-christe , were crept into Christian churches whiles the Apostles lived : And yet communion was lawfull therein . Even so the children of light & the children of darknes did communicate togather in Christes time : As for Idolles if they be no other then set formes of read prayer and such like , which the Brownistes call idolles , communion with them is lawfull enough : And for governement though Caiaphas was an Anti-christian vsurper , yet did many persons lawfully submit vnto his power : Thus hath God himself and his Prophets , Christ and his Apostles taught vs both by their word and example and therfore let Delescluse heare the Prophet Esay which he alledgeth , turning vnto him and saying vnto the maynteyners of schisme , wo vnto them that call that communion evill which the Lord hath shewed to be good and lawfull . 27. FRom a fourth speech of Mr. Br. he reasoneth thus : Moreover in his fourth charge where he maketh the state of the poore blinde Papistes far better , then the condition of the angell of the church of England , and that also such as are the angelles such becommeth the church for the most part , I do observe that by his owne doctrine the estate of the church of England is worse then Babylon it self , which Babylon is graunted by all to be that Synagogne and church of Anti-christe devoted vnto destruction etc. First , he falsmes Mr. Br. his speech by adding a degree of comparison which Mr. Bri●ghtm . vsed not in saing that he makes the estate of the poore blinde papistes farr better : It had bene far better for Delescluse to have to have omitted that clause , & to have repeated Mr. Brightmans comparison simply & truely with out such addition ; but it seemes he he favours his owne cause more thē true dealing . Secondely , he corrupts & falsifies Mr. Brightmans speech againe by saying that he makes the estate of the poore blinde papistes far better , then the condition of the angel of the church of England as though Mr. Brightman had spoken generally and without exception touching the whole ministery of the church of England , whereas even by Delescluses owne * former allegation of the wordes , Mr. Br. speakes of those angelles , who bewitched with ambition and covetousnes do refuse holy reformation , where yet also he leaves out the word onely being a word of restraint vsed by † Mr. Brightman of purpose to prevent the cavilles of such honest men as this Delescluse here shewes him self , Mr. Brightman sayth that Christe in this place preferreth the blinde papistes , onely before those angelles , who bewitched with ambition etc. And thus the double falshood of Delescluse appeareth not onely in adding but also in omitting that which was most significant and specially to be considred . Thirdly , suppose Mr B. had spoken generally of the whole ministery in Englād , yet is the observation of Delescluse most false & vaine . It would not follow therevpon , that the estate of the church of England is worse then Babylon it self as he gathereth ; for even touching those angelles bewitched with ambition and covetousnes , refusing holy reformation , Mr B. speakes not simply & absolutely of thē that they are worse then the papistes , but onely in respect of the greater grace & light which they have receyved for their reformation , for so he doth also explane himself in the same place ; Mr B. knew well enough that the angelles or ministers of the church of Roome ( besides other greater evilles ) are also bewitched with ambition & covetousnes & do therfore refuse holy reformation &c. onely he noted them to be something more excusable in respect of their ignorance because they knew not their maisters will so as those in England doe : we may here fitly tell Delescluse in Mr. Ainsworthes wordes ; He may much abuse any mans words if that which is spoken respectively , he will take and alledge as spoken absolutely . VVhat though the Lord do in some respect p●ef●ree Ch●●tim & Kedar before Israel Ier. 2. 10. 11. ? May it be observed hence that the estate of Israel was simply worse then those heathens , or that Israel was to be separated from rather then they ? The papistes are in some respect worse 〈…〉 followes it not hence that they are simply & absolutely worse . 〈…〉 of the Ainsworthians that they are worse then the Fran●●●scanes in respect of their contention , vnquietnes & disorder , doth it follow hence that he accountes the Ainsworthiās to be simply the worse & rather to be separated frō ? Nothing lesse . By these examples let Delescluse learne to see his solly in ga - thering such observations . 28. AFter this false recitall of Mr. Br. his wordes togather with his false observation vpon the same he makes this question in the * same place . 〈◊〉 where are then those great prayses of all manner of blessinges vpō that church rehearsed in the second artickle , but cheefely these spirituall blessinges of the word purely and sincerely taught in it . First , for those earthly blessinges whereof Mr. B. spake , why might they not be found in that church of England , suppose it had bene every way worse then Roome ? How blinde is Delescluse that makes this question so far from the purpose ? Secondly , as for the spirituall blessinges of the word purely taught , seing Mr. Br. doth blame but some of the ministers of that church , why may not the word be purely and sincerely taught by others that are free from the blame there spoken of ? 29. A Seventh speech which Delesc . bringeth from Mr. B. against the church of England is this that naughtines raigneth in it , the hand of God is heavy vpon it ; and againe , that in her the lawes of Christe are not kept . Hence he inferreth ; But what is there then to be done , even this that every soule who hath any care of salvation and of escaping the eternall flames of everlasting damnation be carefull to come out with speed from Babylon etc. This conclusion of separation which Delescluse here gathereth & denounceth vnder paine of eternall flames of everlasting damnation is vayne , for first all that Mr. Br. here sayth of England might also most truely be affirmed of that church of the jewes where in Christe did communicate for there , 1. naughtines raigned & prevayled in the Herods , in the priestes , elders , scribes , Pharisees & Sadducees &c. Mat. 2. 16. and 12. 24. and 14. 9. and 16. 12. 21. 2ly , the hand of God was heavy vpō them in their manifold oppressions & miseries which they endured vnder the government of the Romanes & their substitutes , Mat. 2. 16. and 3. 10. and 17. 24. etc. Luk. 13. 1. and 2. 1. Ioh. 11. 48. 3ly , the lawes of Christ were not kept there Mat. 15. 3. Ioh. 15. 20. 22. And now by the sētēce of Delescluse , eternall flames of evelasting damnatiō must be the portion of Christe & his Disciples that cōmunicated with that church , who will not detest such vile cōclusions , which are like vnto arrowes shot even against the breaste of Christe Iesus himself ? As he that makes himself mad casteth firebrandes , arrowes and mortall thinges prov . 26. 18. so Delescluse in this place casting abroad his firebrandes of eternall damnation , shooting his arrowes against heaven , & throwing mortall thinges even vpon the Lord of life what doth he els herein but declare himself to be a mad man ? & why might not this his booke which he entitles an Ad-vertisement be much more fitly entitled a Mad-vertisement . Secondly , all that Mr. Br. affirmeth in this place touching England hath bene affirmed by the Brownistes themselves touching one an other : so that Delescluse may here see how he hath kindled a fire to burne vp himself & his owne company : For 1. that naughtines raigneth among the Ainsworthians it may appeare by the testimony of Mr. Iohnson who hath oft in publique witnessed of them as of drosse or chaffe which the Lord with his fanne would purge out from them , vnder that name of chaffe the the holy ghost doth declare vuto vs the wicked among whom nanghtines raigneth Ps . 1. 4. Mat. 3. 12. As for the Franciscanes ( besides many other greevous thinges ) some of Mr. Ainsworthes company do testify of them , that probable murder and approved whoredomes are tolerated or maynteyned among them ; Delescluse himself is noted for one of the witnesses . 2ly that the hand of God is heavy vpon them appeareth manifestly by the * notable testimony of Mr. Iohnson himself : 3ly that the lawes of Christe are not kept among thē of Mr. Ainsworthes company Mr. Iohnson testifyeth touching their governement , & Mr. Robinson touching the administration of their deacons in that they have no separation of their almes : Thus Delescluse by his owne maner of reasoning doth enwrap himself and his company in the flames of damnation , yea in eternall flames of everlasting damnation . 30. FVrther Delescluse to prove a separation from that church where naughtines raigneth doth alledge that saying of the Apostle , he which coupleth himself with an harlot , is one body , 1. Cor. 6. 16. But this allegation ( though repeated * againe by hiu as a speciall ground of their separation ) is nothing to the purpose ; the apostle there meaneth that he wich coupleth himself with an harlot by fornication or whoredome , that person defileth himself by his wicked act ; for otherwise it was lawfull for a man to couple himself with an harlot by marying with her , as we see in Salmon and Rahab , Mat. 1. 5. with Iosh . 6. 25. The priestes indeed were forbidden , even by mariage to couple them selves with an harlot , Lev. 21. 7. 14. that others were so forbidden we reade not . But as for ioyning in communion with a church where naughtines raigned , it was not forbidden , no not to the priestes themselves , from Aaron to Zacharie we never read or any godly priestes , that did ever separate vpon such a ground a Delescluse doth here pretend . 31. VVHereas againe Delescluse noteth that as concerning the outward blessinges of peace and prosperity in earthly thinges , by it no church , no man can have any assurance to be in the favour of God etc. This note is idle , neither hath Mr B. alledged outward prosperity as a marke of of a true church and Delescluse doth abuse Mr. B. by insinuating vnto the reader such a matter , for to what end should he els oppose the fame ? In this note Delescluse doth so fight as one that beateth the ayre fighting with his owne shadow and so offendeth against the example of the Apostle , 1. Cor. 9. 26. 32. IN the next place to confort his reader against the tediousnes of his short writing he telles vs , that he will now begin to draw to an end concerning his charges &c. and that he will draw the rest into a short summe : But what needed he to do so , if there had bene any soundnes in this his so short a writing ? hath he not already hasted & posted so fast on that he hath forgot his reckoning ? for whereas in the beginning of his booke he hath numbred out ten charges or testimonies of Mr. Brightman touching the corruptions in the church of England & hath also * promised to declare his minde concerning them , notwithstanding this , forgetting his method propounded at the beginning , forgetting his promise made vnto the reader , as though he could not count ten , so hath he left out one of his number & hath not shewed vs his minde touching the sixt testimony of Mr. B. which he alledged at first : Thus we see he makes more hast then good speede : Could he not runne except he skip with all by leaping quite over the matter which he propounded & promised to handle ? 33. COme we now vnto the eighth allegation which he bringeth from Mr. Br. against the church of England touching some constitutions and ordinances in the same , on this maner ; excellent ordinances indeed ; for which the reformed churches may be ashamed . First of all observe here his ignorance in the mistranslation of these wordes ; for as it is signifyed vnto vs by sundry that have more learning then our selves or this Delescluse , these latter wordes of Mr. B. prae quibus erubescant reformatae Ecclesiae are not to be translated as here they are set downe by Delescluse but in a quite contrary sense ; prae quibus signifying not for whith but in comparison whereof the reformed churches may be ashamed , And as these two speeches are quite contrary , if we should first say thus Delescluse hath written such thinges for which Mr. Ainsworth may be ashamed and then againe on th● other side to say , Delescluse hath written such thinges in comparison whereof Mr. Ainsworth might be ashamed , for the first of cheefe speeches doth declare how ill he hath done to make his fellowes ashamed , the second sheweth how well he hath done to shame his fellowes that they can not imitate him , even such difference is there betwixt the speech of Mr. B. truely translated , and betwixt the ignorant translation thereof by Delescluse in this place . And herewithall is to be noted that as there is an jronie or figurative speech in the fi●st part of Mr. B. his testimony , where he speaketh of excellent ordinances , even so also he speakes by the contrary when he telles vs in the latter part thereof , how the reformed churches may blush thereat , as though they had not the like ordinances , but in the translation of Delescluse this jroine is not to be found . He telles vs in his Epistle how he hath had a hand both in the translating and printing of Mr. B. his booke , that so he might be found guilty of all manner of falsification , 1. false printing and glosing as is noted before . sect . 9. 2ly , false allegation as is shewed before sect . 27. 3ly false translation as in this place , 4ly , false interpretation & collections throughout his booke . Secondly , what if the reformed churches may be ashamed of the corruptions & 〈◊〉 in the church of England ? will this prove the * speciall thinge intended by Delesculse in his writing & in his allegation of Mr. Br. his speeches ? will this prove that Mr. Brightman taught corruptly when he sayd that we ought not to separate frō the church of England ? Nothing lesse , In the time of Christe the jewes had many wicked traditious , ordinances & customes for which the godly might be ashamed , and yet they might not then separate : The churches of Ephesus & Smyrna might well be ashamed of the manifold corruptions in other of their neighbour churches in Asia & yet without separation . VVe our selves have often seene such thinges in the Brownistes for which all that professe the name of Christe might well be ashamed , we have seene their contentions , disorders & conf●sions so great , that even the jewes , the professed enimies of Christe being neighbours vnto the Brownistes and dwelling hard by them & perceyving their bitter dissensions & divisions have laughed them to scorne & poynted at them with the finger : Thus have they bene a scandall and an offence both to th●se with in & without the church : And now therfore according to the reasoning of Delesclnse they are for this to be reiected & separated from . 34. DElescluse in his amplification of this fore sayd speech makes a large complaint against the reformed churches , shewing that they may be ashamed because they have not dealt so sincerely and plainely with the church of England for reproofe of corruptions in the same , &c ▪ In this complaint observe first , how absurdly Delescluse dealeth that being to reprove the dutch & french churches writes against them in English which they can not vnderstand ; why did he not also write against the church of England in french or dutch ? Secondly , note here how he breakes his promise : he promised immediately before to be breefe & to bring that which remayned into a short summe ; & yet he is now more large and ample in laying out this testimony of Mr. B. then in any of the former . In this dealing it seemes he scarse knew or cared what he sayd or did . Thirdly , let the reader know that the reformed churches have plenteonsly testifyed against the corruptions of the church of England contrary to that which Delescluse doth here pretend : for a tast hereof to omit other thinges we desire the reader but to looke vpon these three bookes , viz. Abridgement of the booke delivered to his maiesty by ministers of lincol . etc. The answer to D. Downehams sermon ; the scholasticall discourse against the signe of the crosse , wherein may be seene the pregnant and abundant testimonies of learned men in the reformed churches both against the hierarchy or prelacy and also against the superstitious ceremonies remayning in the church of England , as namely Calvine , Beza , Musculus , Bucer , Martyr , Bullinger , Aretius , Zanchius , Mornaeus , Iunius , Sadeel , Piscator , Polanus , Vrsinus , Virel , Viret , Grinaeus , Bucanus , Goulartius , Danaeus , Olevian , Zepperus , Lubbertus , Bastingius , Snecanus , Keckerman , with a number more , who as they have testifyed against the corruptions maynteyned by the prelates on the one side , so have they testifyed against the separation & schisme maynteyned by the Brownistes and Anabaptistes on th' other side : In so much that both they which plead for the prelacy and they which plead for separation do in like manner esteeme and hold the ministers of the reformed churches as their partyes and adversaries , see D. Down hams defence , lib. 1. pag. 197. and H. Ainsw . counterpoy . pag. 15. 35. A Ninth speech of Mr. Brightman alledged by Delescluse is touching the names of the officers of that church , that they were vnknowne vnto the church of Christe , except the bishops etc. where vpon Delescluse infereth in these wordes : And what is this ? shall then any soule in whom there is but a very small sparkle of the feare of God , be so bold as to dare submit vnder the government and guidance of such vnlawfull ministers and ministery ? Yea verily , we see those soules that had very many and great sparkles of the feare of God have submitted themselves vnder the government and guidance of vnlawfull ministers , neither hath Delescluse here brought any sound reason to shew the contrary : VVe see that in Christes time there were divers officers whose names had not bene heard of in the primitive church of the ●ewes , no● ever were instituted by any example of former times in that church , as namely the names of of lawyers , scribes of the people and according to the writing of of the Brownistes , the names of Archisynagogues , or rulers of the Synagogues . Secondly , it is evident , the godly may lawfully submit themselves vnto the government & guidance of such private brethren , who in respect of their sects , factions & superstitious observations have had ●uch names as were formerly vnknowne vnto the church of God , who also in respect of their wickedn●s deserved to have their names ●lotted o●t of the register of the saintes , This we see in the communion of the godly with the scribes & Pharisees : And therfore if it be lawful for Christians to submit themselves vnto the counsayles , admonitions & rebukes of those which for their sin ought to be cast out of the church of God & yet are vniustly reteyned : If a man may stand vnder the guidance and authority of such admonishers , so long as he testifies against their sinnes , then may he also stand vnder the government & guidance of vnlawfull officers : If a man may submit himself vnto one who is vnlawfully a member of the church , why not also vnto him who is vnlawfully a minister of the church ? If a man may submit himself in private vnto the guidance of an vnlawfull brother , then why not also vnto the publique guidance of an vnlawfull officer ? There is more proportion betwixt a member & a minister then betwixt a member & an excommunicate or an heathen , or one that ought to be excommunicate : For example , Daniel studly & Iean Delesculse being both of them deposed from their offices for sin imputed vnto them by the Franciscane Brownistes , suppose they were still obstinate in the sinnes imputed vnto them deserving excommunication , & yet tolerated vnlawfully , in this estate being not iudged nor cast out by their church their admonitions for sin either in the first or second place were not to be reiected : And if their private admonition might be submitted vnto , why not their publique also if they had not bene deposed ? If in the want of due excommunication the private admonition of an vnlawfull member is of force & to be submitted vnto , then in the want of iust deposition the publique admonition or other workes of governement exercised by vnlawfull ministers is of force & to be submitted vnto : This reason is specially to be considred of those Brownistes that mainteyne the popular governement & submit vnto the same . 36. BVt Delescluse addes his reason why such vnlawfull ministers are not to be submitted vnto : For sayth he : Are they not all thieves and robbers which enter not in by the dore but climbe vp an other way ? And will any man of wisedome commit vnto the protection and and keeping of theeves the least part of his worldly goods ? No , none wilde so vnwise for every one ●ndweth that they will but make a pray of them and spoile and rob them ? And shall any then be so carefull for thinges of so small importance and shall he not care vnto whom he doth commit the guidance of that which is the principall , namely of his soule ? First , we do directly affirme that which Delescluse doth so flatly deny ▪ Many men of wisedome may & will & ought to commit vnto the protection & keeping of theeves not onely the least part but the greatest part of their worldly goods : For all tyrants a wicked rulers that oppresse & spoyle their subiectes are theeves & robbers , Prov. 28. 15. Esa . 1. 23. Hos . 5. 1. Mic. 3. 1. 2. etc. Yea these great thieves are in divers respectes more vile then other outpurses or then th●se that rob by the high way side , Yet vnto the protection & keeping of these tyrantes men both of wisedome & godlines may & ought to commit both their lives & their goods ; Those which teach men not to submit vnto such are guilty of rebellion & treason ; Though Saul was a tyrant & an oppressour 1. Sam. 8. 11. etc. Yet was submission vnto him lawfull & necessary , men of wisedome did lawfully commit themselves & their goods vnto his protection . Thus the ground of Delescluse his argument is taken away . Secondly , men of wisedome may & ought also sometimes to commit the guidance of their soules vnto thieves ; for all false stewardes & vnfaithfull ministers that teach not the flock of God but keep back his counsell are indeed theeves also & steale the word of the Lord from their neighbours , Ier. 23. 30. 1. Cor. 4. 1. 2. And such thieves there were many in Israel , such were many of the scribes & lawyers in Christes time , Mat. 23. 13. etc. Luk. 11. 52. And yet our saviour requires his servants to submit vnto such , to heare their doctrine , though with this caution to beware of their leaven , Mat. 16. 12. Men might lawfully receive their sound doctrine , while they discerned that which was erroneous & tooke heed of the same . The scribes in their corrupt and wicked administration or execution of their office were notorious theeves ; & a theevish administration is as bad as a thievis● entrance , & yet we see the ministery of such might be submitted vnto . Thirdly , if the ministery of thieves and robbers may not be submitted vnto , then may not the ministery of schismatiques be submitted vnto , for schismatitiques that steale away themselves and others from the cōmunion of of the faith full are in this respect no better then theeves : And therfore by this his owne argument the ministery of Delescluse is not to be submitted vnto , because as a schismatique he hath stollen away himself both from the reformed french church of old and againe of late from the Franciscane Brownistes , who being formerly in his account a true church , how could he so renounce and disclayme their communion without schisme ? 37. YEt further he bringes here a ground of scripture oft abused by the Brownistes to prove their separation in these wordes : Let them alone therfore for as our saviour sayth / they are blinde leaders of the blinde : and both of them shall surely fall into the pit . The letting alone here spokē of by Christe is to be vnderstood in respect of the offence which the Pharisees tooke vniustly at the wordes of Christe that the Disciples should not be troubled therewith , as appeareth Mat. 15. 12. 14. Our saviour by his example did there teach vs to testify against corruptions as he himself there did against the traditions of the Pharisees , vers . 3. 7. etc. But as for separation from such guides our saviour sayth nothing , yea that he meant no such thing it appeareth evidently by the communion which he and his Apostles did afterwardes still reteyne in that church not separating from the same . And though they were in many thinges blinde leaders , yet not so far as that simply to heare them was vnlawfull , but to follow them blindely with out examining of that which they sayd by the word of God , such heedlesse and vndiscreete hearing and following is forbidden , to heare them as the Beraeans heard Paul was not vnlawfull . And if blinde guides are to be taken heed of , then we do further appeale vnto the conscience of the indifferent reader whether it were a safer thing to submit vnto the teaching of Mr. Brightman or of Delescluse his censurer , to heare such as M. Perkins , Mr. Greeneham , M. Phillips & such like teachers or to commit their soules to the instruction of Thomas Cocky , Ihon Hales , Francis Iesop and such like blinde guides as do leade both Mr. Ainsworth himself and his whole company , Let those that know these two sorts of guides consider duely of the matter . 38. THe tenth speech of Mr. Brightman he setteth downe on this manner , finally the angell of the Church of England is both a pexsecuter of the brethren and a deceyver of the prince . VVhence he inferreth with an exclamation , Marvelous , and is he still for all this the angell of the Church in Mr. Brightmans iudgement ? In mine doubtlesse he is altogather otherwise , even that angell of the bottomlesse pit , who is a king over those locustes etc. The ministers of the Iewish Church in Christes time were both persecutours of the brethren and deceyvers of the princes and Governours , and yet were still the angell of that Church . They persecuted Christe and sought to murder him , they seduced Pilate and brought him against his owne conscience to condemne Christe , Luk. 23. 23. 24. Yet was not separation required , neither yet did the faithfull reiect their comunion . Secondly is not the angell of the separation both a persequ●tour of the brethren and a deceyver or the prince ? Yes certenly , for the first 〈◊〉 ●hey persequute one an other both in Worde and deede : Their hard speeches of one other are manifold , they scorne one an other and laugh at one an other . They do also mutually Iudge , condemne , and excommunicate one an other : for the second poynt , of deceyving the prince , it is most evident in speciall in their apology dedicated vnto the kings majestie , wherein as much as in them lay , they have sought to draw him vnto errour : This appeareth by Mr. Iohnsons owne confession and recantation wherein he hath recalled sundry of his errours conteyned in that booke : But the Ainsworthians do still persist notwithstanding the admonition given by Mr. Iohnson : So that by this reason the separatists themselves are to be separated from ; we see hereby how the peece of ordinance wherewith they shoote at others doth recoyle vpon themselves & wound their owne communion . 39. NOw remaines the conclusion of this writing to be considred , where after the rehersall of Mr. Brightm . his wordes declaring their wicked and blasphemous errour , who do so fall away from this church as if Christe were banished wholly from hence etc ▪ Delescluse doth then cry out against him ; And so by this what soever sinnes , errours , wickednesses , abhominatiōs he hath shewed before to be both in the angell and in the church it self , all is now cured by this salve : 〈◊〉 most miserable dawbing with vntempered morter . First , note his false dealing and abuse of Mr. Br. as though he had sayd or meant that all the sinnes , errours & corruptions of the church of England had bene cured & salved by this his testimony against the separation ; as though he could not have reproved the schisme of the Brownistes from the church of England , except he had allowed all the corruptions therein ; whereas on the contrary we have shewed how vainely and senselessely Delescluse hath trifeled to prove a separation from the allegations and testimonies of Mr Brightman above noted : Yea even in this very place Mr. Br. telleth vs in expresse wordes that we may neither take ▪ pleasure in them as some mayntainers of those corrup doe , neither may we forsake and fall from the church as the Brownistes doe , he shewes in the same place that he wisheth health of minde vnto both these sorts that are in a contrary extremity : And this his wish shewes that he thought these co●●uptions still to be vncured , & therfore is he most iniuriously charged with the contrary by Delescluse . Secondly , as for his exclamation of most miserable dawbing with vntem●●●ed morter it is a notable instance of the impudency of the Brownistes , who in the middes of their ignorance , do so boldly open a mouth against the learnedest ministers in the churches of God : And much more iustly may it be returned vpon Delescluse his owne head , whose consequences & collections for separatiō from Mr. Br. his speeches are all of them vntempered morter & all his reasoning a most mise●●● dawbing : The iniquity of this his exclamation may easily be seene in this that he doth not refute Mr. Br. his reasons alledged in this place but passes thē over in silence : Mr. Br. shewes of Laodicea that though the angell thereof was miserable and poore and blinde and naked yet communion was lawfull , Christ still supped with the same , he shewes withall that though the like misery be also found in England , as being the Antitype of Laodicea , yet that there is a presence of Christe communicating with them , which he proves further from the experience of the Brownistes themselves compared with the scriptures Rom. 10. 13. etc. Rev. 3. 20. It had bene fitter for del . to have given a sound answer vnto these reasons then with a sound of wordes to have made so lowde an exclamation . Thirdly , by the private and publique confession and testimony of Delescluse there is a miserable dawbing with vntempred morter among the Brownistes themselves , for this Del. hath often avouched and affirmed that there is but one sound warrant and example in the scriptures to stay men from anabaptisme , namely the example of the apostate Israelites that were not recircumcised when they ioyned againe with Iudah in the worship of God , were it not for this example , he sayth that he himself would be rebaptised : If this be true that he sayth , then is both Mr. Clifton and Mr. Iohnson a miserable dawber seing they † both have vsed many other arguments and a multitude of scriptures against rebaptisation : If there be but one sound argument , then all the other are vnsound and false , and consequently vntempered morter : Now these other reasons being vsed by the Franciscanes while he was yet among them , why did he not testify against their vn sound doctrine and convince them of their errour ? how could he endure to see such a number of holy scriptures perverted , falsifyed and abused by Mr. Ioh. and Mr. Clift . and yet hold his peace ? how could he suffer them to give so great advantage vnto Mr. Smith and other anabaptistes by alledging against them so many colourable pretences and shadowes of reason wherein he thought there was no substance ? VVhat sincerity is there in the course of these men that see one an others daubing & yet wink at the same ? VVhy may we not think that Delesc . doth now also discerne ād behold some dawbing in Mr. Ainsw . Tho. Cocky , Ioh. Hales and that he winkes at it as he did before in Mr. Ioh. and Mr. Clifton ? Thus may we here see touching Delescluse the onely governing elder of the Ainsworthians , that as there is but one step betwixt him and anabaptisme by his owne confession , so is there never a step betwixt him and the path of hypocrisye ; he that sees his fellowes dawbing with vntempered morter and lets them alone in their sin , must needes be a miserable dawber himself , he that professeth himself a separatist from all knowne sinners , and yet sees his fellowes sinning openly in print , by abusing the scriptures in great measure and still continuing in this offence and yet tolerates them herein , how can he be esteemed otherwise then as an apparant hypocrite ? 40. ONce more he yet renewes his former reasoning and exclaming & sayth vnto vs : Can any preach in the office of an angell purely and sincerely who is a theefe and a robber ? shall any administer purely who is not lawfully called therevnto as Aaron was ? Can any vnlawfull minister administer lawfully the seales of Gods covenant vnto dogges and swyne purely and sincerely ? O ceasse to do evill , learne to do good ! God who is iealous etc. For the substance of this obiection it is twise answered before , section 18. & 36. yet for the further stopping of his wide mouth that without cause talketh so much of theeves , robbers , vnlawfull ministers , dogges , swine etc. we do here demand of him , can any preach in the office of an angell purely , and sincerely who is an apostata and hath for saken the most holy fayth as H. A. in the account of all the Brownistes hath done ? Can any administer purely who for their schisme have bene deposed from their ministery continuing still in their schisme as H. A. and this Del. have bene ? Can the seales of Gods covenant be administred purely & sincerely vnto such as are reiected as dogges & swine , vnto such as William Clerke , Richard Benet , George Parker etc. who for their sin & wickednes are excommunicated by Mr. Iohnson & his company & consequently esteemed as dogges & swine though yet reteyned in communion by Mr. Ainsworthes company which by this meanes in the iudgement of the Brownists themselves is become a stye of swine & one body with excommunicates ? shall those who by the Franciscanes are accounted vnworthy to gather vp the crummes vnder their table , become stewards of the house to break the bread vnto the children of the Ainsworthians ? shall those that are iudged vnworthy to heare the worde , be allowed for prophets to preach the word ? Yet thus it is in Thomas Cocky and Iohn Hales , who being by Mr. Iohnson & his company delivered vnto satan are yet set vp for prophets by Mr. Ainsworth and his company to draw men from those snares of Satan wherein themselves do ly enwrapped . 41. AFter this he seekes to lay two great sinnes vpon Mr. Brightman for charging them with blasphemous errour &c. And first , he would shew him to be a persecutour of the brethren & that in these wordes ; for what greater persecution could he put vpon those poore soules which have separated thēselves from those evilles by himself set downe , then to accuse or charge them of blasphemy ? Yea it is such a persecution as that it is vnto death , for by the law of God a blasphemer must doe . First , it is no sin of persequution to impute blasphemy vnto those that iustly deserve the same , for Luke and Paul and Iames did charge sundry men with blasphemy and yet were not to be accounted persequutors for the same as may appeare , Act. 18. 6. 1. Tim. 1. 20. Ian. 2. 7. And seing Delescluse hath not proved Mr. Brightmans accusation to be vniust vpon them , he can not iustly charge him with persecution . Secondly , suppose Mr. Br. had bene a persequutor of the Brownistes in this speech , yet is he not a persecutour of the brethren so as Delescluse chargeth him , & so as Mr. Br. noted the angell of the church of England to be in persequuting their brethren that do remaine in communion with them , because the Brownistes neither in their owne account nor in Mr. Br. account are brethren , but such as separate from the fellowship of the faithfull brethren . Thirdly , suppose Mr. B. had bene a persecutour of the brethren , yet not vnto death as Delescluse doth write , for the law of God doth not simply and generally require that every blasphemer should dye as this ignorant and inconsiderate person doth affirme by his false application of the sentence of the law vnto Mr. brightmans speech : The law requireth that he which curseth his God and blasphemeth the name of the Lord shal be put to death Lev. 24. 15. 16. but besides this high degree of blasphemy , there were many kindes of blasphemy not punishable with death by the law : Every reproch , slander & evill speech either of a mans brother , or any part of Gods truth may iustly according to the scriptures be called blasphemy as hath bene signified & shewed ūto vs frō these places , Mat. 15. 19. Eph. 4. 31. Tit. 3. 2. 2. Pet. 2. 12. Iude , 10. And who will say , that all these sinnes were to be punished with death by the magistrate ? Fourthly , suppose Mr. B. had persecuted them to the death , yet might there have bene a greater persecution contrary to that which Delescluse by his question doth here pretend , in saying , what greater persecution could he put vpon those poore foules etc. for there are divers kindes of death , some are more painefull & shamefull then others & some persons are more to be detested in death then others ; And those that do vniustly lay vpon men the vilest death are greater persequutours then some others that yet put men to death also : And in speciall many of the Brownistes are greater persequutours of vs then Delescluse dare yet for shame pretend against Mr. B. for divers of them blush not to say that we have sinned against the holy ghoste , that no place of repentance is left vnto vs and all this for testifying against their schisme : Now blasphemy against the holy ghost being greater then other blasphemy , Matt. 12. 31. Luk. 12. 10. It may hence appeare that they are greater persequutours of vs , then Mr. Br. is of them , seing in their blinde and rash moode they charge vs with greater blasphemy , then Mr. Br. doth them . Lalstly , if imputation of blasphemy be persequution vnto death , then are the Brownistes themselves deadly persequutours of one an other : for to omit manifold other proofes hereof , they do mutually testify of one an other as of false churches : Mr. Iohnson & his company say of Mr. Ainsworth & his company that they are a schisme and no true church : Againe Mr. Ainsw . & his people do reiect Mr. Iohnsons company , yea divers of the Ainsworthians do affirme of the Franciscanes , that they are worse then the worlde : If some other● should thus speake of them , they would account them vncircumcised Ph●●●nes , rayling on the host of the living God , * blaspheming the name of the Lord & his tabernackle &c. And thus to bring the collection of Delescluse vpon his owne pate , we may say vnto him according to his owne reason , who be greater persequutours of the Brownistes then they themselves are mutually vnto one an other ? Do they not seek one an others blood in making one an other blasphemers ? The saying of † Zophar the Naamathite is verifyed vpon them : The bow of steele striketh them through , the arrow is drawen out & cometh forth of the body & shineth of their gall : The Gall of their owne persecution , the arrow of their owne obiection woundeth their owne sides & is coloured with their blood , so that here we may also apply vnto Delesc . that which Mr. Ainsworth once * wrote against Mr. Smith , How Delescluse is snared in the worke of his owne handes & in his owne obiections , is worthy to be noted with † Higgaion Selah , & meditated to the praise of God. 42. THe second sin which he layeth vpon Mr. B. is this to be a deceyver of the prince , which he notes in this particular for writing against them : And how he hath also deceyved the princes , he and others of his minde by causing them to banish and keep in banishment their most loyall and faithfull subiectes . For deceyving the prince which he obiecteth , let him know that though Mr. Brightman had more particularly pleaded against them and for their banishment also , yet had he bene no deceyver therein , let Delescluse prove this his consequence . As touching the causes of their banishment , it is cheefely to be layd vpon those that have bene the * hee goates of the separation : These by their deceitfull reasons & perswasions have mislead & seduced many simple persons and have sought out reasons of banishment and misery vnto many by leading them vnto schisme : Let those that are yet alive bewaile their offence herein . Thirdly , seing the Brownistes themselves do now mutually abandon one an others company why do they blame others for doing such thinges as themselves do practise ? Their reiection of one an other is now more grevous then banishment , whiles they banish one an other from the pledges & seales of Gods covenant ▪ Yea the church of England shewes more favour and kindenes vnto the Brownistes thē the Francis●anes & the Ainsworthians do vnto one an other , whiles they do both reiect those that are present at the worship or ministery of th' other , & do also refuse many of them to eate one with an other : Do they not now by their owne example teach the magistrates & princes vnder which they live to reiect & banish them also ? Fourthly , whereas the Francis●anes do now professe that at May next they purpose to remoove their habitation & to go & dwell at Embden , divers of the Ainsworthians do affirme that they have so behaved themselves in the place where they now dwell that they are ashamed to tary there any longer , & therfore that it is time for them to remove and to be gone thence : If these thinges be so then is it not the deceit of Mr. Br. & others of his minde to procure their banishment as Delescluse obiecteth , but it is the shame of their owne wicked conversation that doth banish the Brownistes & drive them from one place to an other . Fiftly , to make it plaine & evident what minde the Brownistes have to banish one an other , let vs here consider what the Ainsworthians have * written against the Franciscanes & given vnto those arbiters appoynted by the magistrates for the hearing of their strife about their meeting house : A way of peace by these themselves propounded and by the church of Leyden and vs agreed to , these after reversed and stood not vnto vnlesse we would goe dwell out of the city : And although in the treatie of the agreement , it was testifyed by the elders of that church , that vnlesse it were to the apparant vndoing of vs and of our families , we should not be dismissed againe to dwell here : Yet because we would not absolutely promise to leave this citie , they would not stand to the agreement which themselves had made . Besides the accusation of falshood , & covenant-breaking here noted , observe also the cruelty of the Franciscanes in seeking to banish the Ainsworthians & to have them out of the citie ( as they complaine ) though it were to the apparant vndoing of them and their families : Is not this a mercilesse kinde of banishment that is sought by them ? do they not herein take one another by the throate with their vnpitifull handes ? May we not here see the truth of the wise mans saving ; * A poore man if he oppresse the poore is like a raging raine that leaveth no foode ? Yea the raging oppression of the Brownistes tendes to their apparant overthrow & vndoing even by their owne confession . And therfore as Delescluse throughout his advertisement doth draw his collections from Mr. Br. his wordes against the church of England , even so may we 〈◊〉 better reason condemne the Brownistes out of their 〈…〉 Thus may we shoote with the Brownistes in thie● owne bow , & wound them with their owne arrowes . Lastly , besides the degrees & kindes of banishment above noted , we do here demand of the Brownistes both of the Franciscanes & Ainsworthians , what they would doe if they had a magistrate according to their mindes , such an one as they have often wished for ; would they not then banish one an other persisting in those courses which they do now condemne mutually in one an other ? 〈◊〉 them answer vs plainely & sincerly vnto this question & then doubt we not , but even thereby also further to stop the mouth of Delescluse that is here so vn●●●ly opened with complaint against Mr. Brightman . 43. HAving thus set downe the sinnes of Mr. B. he comes in the next place to set downe the vertues of his owne schismaticall flocke , in these wordes ; And indeed although I am but a stranger vnto them and one of an other people , yet the truth caused me to speak thus in their behalf , that I know not any people at this day vnder the sunne more loyall and faithfull vnto their prince and country , and more zelous and religious towards God , then they are : First , being about to sound the trūpet of their praise , for defence of his modesty he telles vs that he is but a stranger vnto them and one of an other people ; but this is not enough to excuse his flattery & boasting , for though he be a stranger vnto thē as he is a french man , yet as he is a Brownist & a schismatique he is one of them , & therfore notwithstanding his different nation may be as partiall in praising of them as any other of thē & above many of them , in that he is an elder , a governour & a prophet among them : It had bene much more for their credit if some other of their neighbours had praised them , but this they want being esteemed both of the magistrates & ministers of the reformed churches to be a contentious sect ; And therfore while Delescluse being incorporate into their schisme doth thus extoll his frendes & brethren , it may iustly be sayd vnto him : * He that praiseth his frendes with a loude voyce rising early in the morning it shal be counted to him as a curse . Secondly , for the length of his comparison , in that he sayth , he knowes no people vnder the sunne more loyall etc. how vaine & foolish is this ? Though he know none in the east or west Indies more loyall then these , this is nothing to their praise because he knowes not those nations at all , nor many other far nearer which are yet all vnder the sunne : And thus this large comparison is nothing els but the lowde noyse of an idle commendation . Thirdly , for their commendable loyalty and faithfulnes vnto their prince and 〈◊〉 , how doth it appeare ? by what good token or argument can be demonstrate the 〈◊〉 ? Yea the contrary rather might be shewed by divers instances of sundry of them who have deceyved and 〈◊〉 both the prince of 〈◊〉 owne country of his right & the governours of these countries wherein they now live of their due also , insomuch that some being taken in their deceit & in their presumptuous transgression of the lawes have smarted for the same : And where then is their singular loyalty & faithfulnes ? Fourthly , for their zeale of religion where is it ? doth it not vanish into the smoke of contention ? Yea is it not confessed by many of them , that they neither feele in themselves nor see in others that zeale & comfort thereof which they felt & saw before their separation ? For this also we could alledge sundry witnesses of themselves besides our owne knowledge . 44. BVt he proceedes yet further to amplify his commendations & prayses of the zeale and religion in the Brownistes which as he sayth are seene in them and among them both privately and publiquely : Yea in such measure as that I am fully perswaded that they are and shal be if they continue faithfull vnto the end , that people by which chiefely Antichriste the man of sin shal be rooted out . Behold here the proude conceit that the Brownistes have of thēselves without all reason , it is much that such fantasies should enter into the head of Delescluse , it is more that they should be rooted therein with such full perswasion as he speakes of , it is yet more that he should not be ashamed to vtter , yea & in print to publish this his arrogant opinion , but most of all that his fellowes & his brethren should allow or tolerate in him this strange dreame or vision of vanitye : for whereas the Lord in his holy word hath noted vnto vs those honourable instruments by whom cheefely Antichriste is to be overthrowne , we desire Delescluse to shew vnto vs where the Brownistes are numbred among them : VVe see in the booke of the revelation that as the Lord in sundry visions hath there declared vnto vs the speciall instruments whereby Antichriste was to be exalted , so hath he also in other visions there described vnto vs those worthies and blessed instrumentes by whom cheefely he is againe to be cast downe : By the consent of the best ād learnedest interpreters there are noted out vnto vs in the Apocalyps divers estates both ecclesiasticall & civill that have wounded Antichriste , but no interpreter that ever yet could finde the Brownistes among them : VVe read of divers angelles fighting against Antichriste , Rev. 14. 6. 7. 8. 9. And these do fitly declare vnto vs such as Iohn Wickleffe , Iohn Husse , Hierome of Prage , Martin Luther & such like , but where be the angelles that may fiftly represent vnto vs Robert Browne , H. Barow , Francis Iohnson etc. VVe reade of divers that have obteyned sundry victories , conquestes and triumphes against Antichriste . Rev. 11. 15. 16. and 14. 14. 17. and 16. 1. and 17. 16. For the further vnderstanding whereof we desire the reader to consider & weigh Mr. Brightmans exposition of those places ; But where is the lot and roome of the Brownistes ? VVere is their atchievement registred among these cheefe instruments of the Lord ? Secondly , whereas he telles vs that this his full perswasion dependes vpon a condition viz. If they continue faithfull vnto the end , whereas also Mr. Iohnson & his followers doe now in the account of Delescluse slide back from their ancient faith & are already proved vnfaithfull , Mr. Robinison also halting betwixt them in some thinges , these thinges duely considred the full perswasiō of Delescluse may quickly turne into a faint perswasion and his vaine confidence into a wan-hope . 45. THe reason of his glorious perswasion touching the Brownistes he setteth downe in these wordes : For by that purity of doctrine which they do teach and by the sincere and publique administration of the glorious kingdome of Christe publiquely and before all the people ; as also by professing that glorious liberty in the gospell , that if any sin be shewed or manifested vnto them by the word of God , is amended whatsoever opposition may be to the contrary , by those thinges I say by them professed practised and taught , it is imposible that where they have place , Antichriste can or have any doore to come in . First , for their purity of doctrine , they have no groundes of pure doctrine which other churches of Christ round about them have not as well as they , VVhy do they exalt themselves in that which others have as well as they and before them ? Other churches have this doctrine also in better and more abundant maner then they ; for H. A. I. Delescluse , Thomas Cocky , Iohn Hales and such like prophets do not teach the pure doctrine with half that purity , grace , power & fruite that the ministers of other churches doe . Besides their ignorance , their doctrine is divers wayes impure & mixt with sundry errours , new doctrines & faithes leading vnto schisme & confusion & is therfore in part recanted by Mr. Iohnson . For their glorious liberty in their publique administration the anabaptists may boast thereof as much as they , seing the anabaptistes are as publique in their administration as the Brownistes and the brownistes are but followers of them therein as they are also in the most or all those thinges , wherein they differ from vs. For their sincere administration thereof against all opposition whatsoever as he boasteth , how vaine is it ? Before the schisme of the Ainsworthians from the Franciscanes , the sinnes and * scandalles of Daniel Studly were shewed and manifested by divers of the Ainsworthians & yet such opposition was made against them as that Da. Studly did neither soundly repent nor loose his office from which he is now deposed : That which the popular governement could not then effect , is now effected since that governement was changed by Mr. Iohnson . VVhereas he sayth that Anti-christe cannot have any doore to come in , where those thinges by them professed and practised have any place , it is also false : for suppose the doctrine and discipline of the Brownistes were both of them pure , even as pure as in the apostles times yet might Antichriste finde a doore to come in by , as well as he did in the time of the apostles , where there were better meanes to keep him out , then the Brownistes now have , see 1. Ioh. 2. 18. 2. Thess . 2. 7. Suppose the Romish Antichriste have no dore to come in by among the Ainsworthians , yet while they open a doore to the Anabaptistes to come in amōg them , what avayleth it ? That such a doore is opened by them see the testimony of the * Franciscanes , who charge Mr. Ainsworth and his company with this evill . 46. MOreover he addeth further in praise of the Brownistes : And for my part I do blesse the day in which I had that grace from my God to know both the people and their faithfull walking in their wayes and religion of God. If a stranger meete with this booke of Delescluse he may be divers wayes deceyved by him in this deceitfull speech : for if he know not that the Brownistes are broken and rent in the middes falling one from an other , then by this false report of Delesc . he may be drawne to think that the Brownistes do faithfully cleave vnto one an other and walke constantly in their wayes without schisming from one an other , which is most vntrue . And further againe if a stranger do know that they are rent a sunder , and yet withall know not of what side Delescluse is , then shall the stranger be left in vncertainty not knowing whether he meane the Franciscanes or Ainsworthians to be that faithfull people , hereafter therfore let Delescluse learne to speak more plainely and to avoyd his deceitfull speeches ; for ought that he hath here written he might be taken for a Franciscane and so his faction might loose that praise of faithfullnes which he intendeth for them . 47. DRawing to an end he seales vp his booke with this prayer for the brownistes ; I beseech the Lord of his grace even with teares that he vouchsafe to open the eyes of their most noble and wise prince that he may see the iustice and equity of their cause and cavse them to see his royall face and presence againe with ioy and gladnes of heart vnder his dominions and iurisdictions , Amen . In this prayer or forme of prayer , observe first how he dishonours the Lord and takes his name in vayne by praying for the manifestation of the iustice and equity of their cause which is so full of iniustice and iniquitye : As Saul took the name of God in vayne by his blessing the Ziphims for their shew of compassion which indeed was cruelty 1. Sam. 23. 21. So doth Delescluse by blessing of the brownistes for the equity of their cause which is indeed a meere iniquity . Secondly , mark here his vaine publishing of his owne devotion & zeale , viz. his praying with teares , yet is it no sound commendation of himself while his teares are spent in such a cause : Delescluse may remember since he was a Papist that many of those idolatours in their superstitious devotion do often times weepe & powre forth their teares before their idolles & images : As those teares can not iustify their devotion , no more can these teares powred forth by Delescluse for the idoll of their separation iustify his devotion . Thirdly , mark his flattery of the king calling him their most noble and wise prince : It is the property of true nobility to try the spirits of men by the scripture , as the beraeans did Act. 17. 11. If therfore he be noble and most noble they will not deny but that he hath examined their spirits & the scriptures alledged by them & presented vnto his maiesty in their petitions ; & then withall if he be most wise how is it that he can not see the mysterie of their separation having their cheefe reasons & proofes layd open before him ? Yea by the sentence of this Delesc . there is nothing to be * expected by him from Christe but the powring out of his aeternall wrath vpon him , nothing as touching his visible estate but aeternall flames of everlasting damnation , If this be his abiect & base estate , how is he most noble or most wise . Fourthly , we do here demand of Delescluse touching this his prayer , whether it be lawfull for any of his flock in the reading of his booke & withall of this his prayer therein to lift vp their hearts vnto the Lord , to desire the same thing & to say Amen with him vnto this his petition : If they may not , then is it a sory prayer which may not be assented vnto by an other , & then is he a sory guide to go before his flock in such desires as it is not lawfull for them to folow him ; but if they may pray the same thing with him & in the reading of his wordes may say Amen vnto his wish , then consider on th' other side how according to the doctrine of the Brownistes , he makes himself guilty of idolatry , for they tell vs that read prayer and set formes of prayer are idolles & the vse of them idolatry , Mr. Ain●worth in speciall hath compared them to the golden calves that Ie●oboam erected , & if this be so then hath Delescluse here in the end of his booke set vp a golden calfe by setting downe this forme of prayer & then all the Brownistes that in the reading thereof do lift vp their hearts in prayer to desire the same thing , all these ( we say ) do then bow downe vnto his calfe & worship the same and so commit idolatry . 48. HAsting to a finall conclusion he sayth ; And so ●do here end though many more thinges might be sayd touching separation from evill , and adioyning or following that which is good : Mark here how he paynts the face of his separation , in calling it a separation from evill etc. whereas indeed it is a separation from that which is good because of some evill mixed therewith ▪ & a reiection of the godly for the wicked sake which is a thing most wicked , Gen. 18. 25. Here he will end but it had bene better for him not to have begun : He telles vs many more thinges might be sayd touching separation , we tell him also that many more thinges may be sayd against the same : The iudicious reader may easily discerne that in all these arrowes which he hath shot he hath still missed the marke , his bow of brasse is broken & all his vaine reasoninges against Mr. Bright ▪ are turned vpon his owne head : If he have more thinges to say hereafter let him see that they be of more weight then these . 49. LAst of all he addeth : And in deed in a word we shall not read from the beginning of the world to this day that there was ever any true church of God truely established but by separation : and therfore this people not to be blasphemers but true worshippers of God. Behold here a heape of falshood couched vp togather in a few wordes for a farewell to his reader : For first , it is false which he sayth of establishing churches by separation from the beginning of the world : Let him shew how the church of God before the flood was established by such a separation as the Brownistes have in their writinges described vnto vs : we have here his bare word onely which is of no credit , his asseveration here vsed by him , viz. in deed in a word is but a word without deed & without truth . Secondly , it is false which he sayth of establishing true churches by separation vnto this day : And this not onely in respect of the church of England which by Mr. Iohnsons confession is a true church though not established by the separation of the B●ownistes , but also in respect of the dutch & french churches which by the Brownistes them selves are acknow●ledged for true churches & yet were not establis●hed by the separation in question : Yea they do reiect & condemne the separation of the Brownistes as schisme : Do these churches then practise and reteyne a separation without their knowledge , against their willes & contrary to their doctrine ? Or if they do thus maintaine a separation not being aware thereof , shall this vnwitting & vnwilling separation be a true ground & foundation of their church ? shall their ignorant practise establish them & iustify their estate ? we would faine know of Delescluse how these thinges can stand sound . Thirdly , suppose this assertion of his touching separation were true , yet his inference therevpon is false , in that he sayth and therfore this people not to be blasphemers : Though a man hold separation yet may he be a blasphemer in many other respectes : For example , Mr. Smith holding the separation of the Brownistes was yet a blasphemer for that which he wrote against the vse of the translated & originall scriptures in the worship of God. And so Mr. Ihonson still holding the separation is yet by the Ainsworthians accounted a blasphemer , one that speakes evill of the way of God , in respect of his new interpretation of Mat. 18. Delescluse reasons here as though there was no blasphemy but against separation , how blindely & partially let the reader iudge . Fourthly , he bringes yet an other false inference from the former assertion , in saying , & therfore this people not to be blasphemers but true worshippers of God : for the former assertion touching separation is mainteyned by Anabaptistes yea & by some of the Arrians , doth it herevpon follow that they are true worshippers of God ? Nothing lesse : Yet such is the fruit of Delescluse his reasoning ▪ further whereas the Brownistes do acknowledge the dutch & french churches to be a separate people & true churches established by separation & yet condemne the read prayer vsed by them as being a false and idolatrous worship , it may hence appeare evidently that his argument for proofe of their true worship is very vaine and false : He may here see that the truth of Gods worship doth not depend vpon separation . Prov. 12. 15. The vvay of a foole is right in his ovvne eyes : But he that heareth counsell is vvise . Errata . PAg. 3. l. 31. reade thinges . pag. 6. l. 18. and to convert them from going 〈◊〉 , p. 7. li. 15. dealing . pag. 11. l. 15. therfore . p. 13. l. 5. affirmation . p. 18. l. 15. for . pag. 19. in the margent read , ●ev . chap. 3. p. 19. l. 39. preferre pag. 25. l. 39. knoweth p. 28. l. 26. corruptions . pag. ●0 . l. 17. for . pag. 35. l. 34. fuly . FINIS . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A01099-e460 * Epist . to Read. pag. 3. * Ps . 43. 1. 2 3. 4. Esa . 1. 10. Ma● . 26. ●7 Act. 3. 1. * Ps . 119. ● 128. 1. Tim. 5. ●1 . * Advertisemēt pag. 5 Pag. 8. 9. Answ . 1. * R. Clift . answ . to Mr. Sm. 154. 155. H. Ains . counterp . pag. 7. 8. 2. ●dvertis . ●ig . 9. ●nsw . 2. 3. Answ . 1. 2. * Answ . to to Mr. Ber. pag. 187. Parallel . pag. 61. 3. Answ . 2. 3. Advertis . ●ag . 9. Answ . Ob. Answ . ● . 2. Except . Ans . to Mr. Iac. pag. 7. 8. Answ . 1. 2. 3. Answ . to Mr. Iac. pag. 7. 8. 4. Advertis . pag. 5. & ● Answ . ●●vertis . ●5 . & 10. ●●sw . ●nsw . Answ . to Mr. Stone , pag. 2. Advert●s . pag. 10. ●●●w . 1 2 * ●dvertis . ●●g . 5. † See lati●●●e edition ●f Mr. B. ●●n kev. cha 〈◊〉 . vers . 15. ●ag . 106. 3. 〈…〉 * Adverti●● pag. 10. Answ . 1. 2. Adver●● . pag. 11. Answ . 1. 2. Expos . of ●●at . 18. ●●pist . ●dvertis . ●ag . 14. Advertis . pag. ●1 . * Advert pag. 3. & ●… Advertis● p. 6. & 1●… Answ . 1● 2. ●dvertis . ●●pist . p. 3. ●dvertis . ●●g . 12. Answ . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 3. Advertis . p. 7. & 12 ▪ 13. Answ . 1. 2. Advertis . pag. 13. Answ . 1. 2. 3 Advertis pag. 13. ●nsw . 1. 2. 3. Advertis . 〈◊〉 . 7. & 13 ●●sw . 1. 2. Advertis . pag. 13. 14 Answ . 1. 2. 3. Plea for ●●fa●ts , p. 〈◊〉 49. etc. ●●rief treat . ●●●gt anaba . 〈◊〉 . 16. etc. Adverti●… . pag. 1● . Answ . Advertis . pag. 14. Answ . 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. See 〈◊〉 of 〈…〉 . Iob. 20. 2● 25. Ans . to M● Sm. pa. 4● Psal . 9. 1● Advertis . pag. 14. Answ . 1. 2. Rob. Bro●ne . H. Barow . Fran. Iohnsō H. Ainsworth Iohn Smith Iohn Robinsō &c. 3. 4. 5. ●ee profa●● eschisme ●f Brown. ●ag . 81. Prov. 28. 3 6. Advertis . pag. 14. Answ . 1. Pro. 27. 1. 2. 3. 4. ●●vertis . 14. ●●sw . 1. 2. Advertis . pag. 15. Answ . 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. ●●nting 〈◊〉 fox , 〈◊〉 . 1. 6. 7. ●rofane ●●hisme of ●●ownist . ●ag . 80. Advertis . 〈◊〉 15. Answ . 1. 2. Advertis . pag. 15. Answ . 1. 2. 3. Advertis . pa. 9. & 11 4. Advertis . pa. 15. Answ . Advertis . pag. 15. Answ . 1. 2. 3. 4. 
A08068	----	The confession of faith of certayn English people living in exile, in the Low countreyes. Together with a brief note of the speciall heads of those things wherin we differ fro[m] the Church of Engla[n]d. True confession of the faith, which wee falsely called Brownists, doo hould Ainsworth, Henry, 1571-1622? 1607 Approx. 88 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 37 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-12 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A08068 STC 18435 ESTC S119852 99855058 99855058 20528 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A08068) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 20528) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1475-1640 ; 1525:06) The confession of faith of certayn English people living in exile, in the Low countreyes. Together with a brief note of the speciall heads of those things wherin we differ fro[m] the Church of Engla[n]d. True confession of the faith, which wee falsely called Brownists, doo hould Ainsworth, Henry, 1571-1622? Johnson, Francis, 1562-1618. 72 p. G. Thorp], [Amsterdam : Reprinted in the yeare. 1607. Place of publication and printer's name from STC. An edition of "A true confession of the faith, which wee falsely called Brownists, doo hould" which is attributed to Henry Ainsworth and Francis Johnson. Reproduction of the original in the Bodleian Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. 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Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Brownists -- Early works to 1800. 2005-02 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2005-03 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-05 Mona Logarbo Sampled and proofread 2005-05 Mona Logarbo Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE CONFESSION of faith of certayn English people , living in exile , in the Low countreyes . Together with a brief note of the special heads of those things wherin we differ frō the Church of Englād . 2 Cor. 4 , 13. We beleev : therefore have we spoken . Harmony of Confess . in the preface set before it , in the Name of the French & Belgick Churches . The Prelates & Priests alway cry out , that we are Hereticks , Schismaticks , and Sectaryes . Howbeit let them know that the crime of Heresy is not to be imputed to them whose faith doth wholly rely vpon most sure grounds of the Scripture ; That they are not Schismaticks , who entierly cleave to the true Church of God , such as the Prophets & Apostles do describe vnto vs ; Nor they to be coūted Sectaryes , who embrace the truth of God which is one and alwayes like it self . Reprinted in the yeare . 1607. To the reverend and learned men , Students of holy Scripture , in the Christian Vniversities , of Leyden in Holland , of Sanctandrewes in Scotland , of Heidelberg , Geneva , and other the like famous schooles of learning in the Low countreys . Scotland , Germany , & France . The English people exiled , in the Low coūtreys , wish grace and peace in Iesus Christ. THis true Confession of our fayth , in our iudgment wholly agreable to the sacred Scripture , we here exhibit vnto al to be discussed : and vnto you ( reverend Sirs ) we dedicate it for two causes . First , for that we know you are able in respect of your singular knowledg in the Scriptures , and hope you are willing in respect of your syncere piety , to convince our errours by the light of Gods word , if any where we erre out of the way . Secondly , that this testimony of Christian faith , if you also fynd it to agree with the word of truth , may by you be approved , eyther in silence or by writing , as you shal think best . It may be , we shal be thought very bold , that being despised of all , yet doubted not to sollicite you so many and so great learned men . But this we did , partly at the request of others to whom we would not deny it ; partly with desire to have the truth through your help more defended & furder spread abroad ; partly constreyned by our exile & other calamities almost infinite ; partly also moved with love of our native countrey , and of these wherein now we live and others else where ; wishing that al may walk with a right foot to the truth of ehe G●sspel , & praying daily vnto God , that the great work of restoring religion & the Church decayed , which he hath happily begun in these latter tymes , by our Gracious Soveraigne and the other Princes of these countreyes & ages ( his servants ) he would fully accomplish , to the glorie of his name & ●ternal salvation in Christ of his elect in al places of the earth . Touching the causes which moved vs to publish this Confession of faith , & to forsake the Church of Eugland as now it standeth , we have truly & as briefly as we could related them , in the Preface to the Reader , hereafter following : & therefore thought here to omit the repetition of them . The Lord Iesus alway preserve you & your Vniversityes to the prayse of his name , the ornament of good learning , th● propagation & maintenance of his pure Religion . From Amsterdam in the low countreyes . The yeare of the last patience of the saints , 1598. ❧ The preface to the Christian Reader . IT may seem strange vnto thee ( Christian Reader ) that any of the Englysh nation should for the truth of the Gospell be forced to forsake their native country , & live in exile , especially in these dayes when the Gospel seemeth to have free passage & florish in that land . And for this cause have our exile ben hardly thought of by many , and evil spoken of by some , who know not ( as it seemeth ) eyther the trew estate of the Church of England , or causes of our forsaking and separation from the same , but hearing this sect ( as they call it ) to be every where spoken against , have ( without all further search ) accounted and divulged vs as heretickes , or Schismatickes at the least . Yea some ( and such as worst might ) have sought the increase of our afflictions , even here also if they could : which thing they have both secretly and openly attempted . This hath Sathan added vnto all our former sorrowes , envying that we should have rest in any part of the inhabited world , and therfore ceaseth not to make warre with the remnant of the womans seed , which keep the comcōmaundements of , God and the testimony of Iesus Christ. But the Lord that brought his former Israel out of Egypt & when they walked about from nation to nation , from one Kingdome to an other people , suffered no man to do them wrong , but reproved Kinges for their sakes : the same Lord yet liveth to mainteyn the right of his afflicted servantes , whō he hath severed , and dayly gathereth out of the world , to be vnto himself a chosen generation , a royal priesthood , a peculiar people & Israell of God : He is our hope and strength and help in troubles ready to be found , he will hyde vs vnder his winges , and vnder his feathers we shall be sure , vntill these miseries be overpast . And though we could for our partes wel have borne this rebuke of Christ in silence , aud left our cause to him who iudgeth iustly al the children of men : yet for the manifestation & clearing of the truth of God from reproches of men , and for the bringing others together with our selves to the same knowledg and fellowship off the Gospel , we have thought it needfull & our duty to make knowen vnto the world , our vnfeyned fayth in God , and loyall obedience towards our Prince and all Governers set over vs in the Lord , together with the reasons of our leaving the Ministery worship and Church of England . Which are not ( as they pretend ) for some few faultes & corcorruptions remayning , such as we acknowledg may be found in the perfectest Church on earth : Neyther count wee it lawfull for any member to forsake the fellowship off the Church for blemishes and imperfections , which every one according to his calling should studiously seek to cure , and to exspect and further it , vntill eyther there follow redresse or the disease be growe incureable , & the candlestick be moved out of the place . But we having through Gods mercy learned to discerne betwixr * the true worship of God & the Antichristiā leitourgy ; the true ministery of Christ & Antichristiā prelacy ; the ordināces of Christs testament & Popish canons : have also learned to leave | the evill & choose the good , to forsake Babell the land of our captivitie , & get vs vnto Sion the mount of the Lordes holynes , and place where his honour dwelleth . But first we desire thee , good Reader , to vnderstand , and mynd that we have not in any dislyke of the Civill estate and politick government in that Common wealth , which we much like and love , separated our selves from that Church : Neyther have we shaken of our alleageance and dutifull obedyence to our Soveraigne PRINCE , the honorable Counsellers , and other Magistrates set over vs , but have alwayes and still do reverēce love and obey them every one in the Lord , opposing our selves against all enemyes forreigne or domestical : against all invasions , insurrections , treasons or conspiracies by whomsoever intended against the Prince and the State , and are ready to adventure our lives in their defence , if need require . Neither have our greatest adversaryes ever ben able to attaint vs of the least disloyalty in this regard . And though now we be exiled , yet do we dayly pray & wil for the preservation peace & prosperity of our Soveraigne Prince & al the dominions of that kingdome . And whereas we have been accused of intrusion into the Magistrates office , as going about our selves to reforme the abuses in that land , it is a mere malicious calumnie , which our adversaries have forged out of their own hart . We have alwayes both by word & practise shewed the contrary , neyther ever attempted or purposed any such thing : but have endevored thus only to reforme our selves and our lives according to the rule of Gods word , by absteyning from al evill & keeping the cōmandements of Iesus : leaving the suppressing and casting out of those remnants of Idolatry , vnto the Magistrates , to whom it belongeth . And further we testify by these presents vnto all men , & desyre them to take knowledg heerof , that we have not forsaken any poynt of the true Ancient Catholicke and Apostolike fayth professed in our land : but hold the same groundes of Christian religion with them stil , agreeing lykewise herein , with the Dutch , Scottish , Germane , French , Helvetian , and al other Christian reformed Churches round about vs , whose Confessions published , we cal to witnes our agreement with them , in matters of greatest moment , being conferred with these Articles of our sayth following . The thinges then onely against which we contend , & which we mislike in the E●glish parish assemblies , are many reliqu●s of that m●n of synne ( whom they pretend to have abandoned ) yet reteyned among them , and with a high hand maynteyned , vpholden , and imposed . The particulers whereof ( being almost infinite ) cannot wel of vs be set down , and would be tedious and yrksome to thee ( good Reader : ) But the principal heads we wil truely relate , and that ●o briefly as in so large and confuse a subject we can . First , in the planting and constituting of their Church ( at the beginning of Queen Elizabets reigne ) they receyved at once into the body of that Church , as mēbers , the whole land , which generally then stood for the most part professed Papists , who had revolted from the profession , which they made in the dayes of King Edward of happy memory , and shed much blood of many Christian Martyrs in Queen Maryes dayes . This people yet standing in this fearful sinful state , in Idolatry , blyndnes , superstition , and all manner wickednes , without any professed repentance , and without the meanes thereof , namely the preaching of the word going before , were by force & authority of Law only compelled , and together received into the bosome and body of the Church , their seed baptised , themselves receved and compelled to the Lords supper , had this ministery and service ( which now they vse ) inioyned & set over thē , and ever synce they and their seed remayne in this estate , being all but one body commonly called the Church of England . Here are none exempted or excluded , be they never so prophane or wretched , no Atheist , adulterer , thief , or murderer , no lyer , perjurer , Witch or conjurer , &c ▪ al are one fellowship , one body , one Church . Now let the law of God be looked into , and there wil be found , that such persons ‡ are not fit stones for the Lords spiritual howse , no meet members for Christs glorious body . None of yeares * may be received into the Church without fr●e professed fayth repentance and submission vnto the Gospel of Christ & his heavenly ordinances . Neyther may | any contynew there longer then they bring forth the fruyts of fayth , walking as becommeth the Gospell of Christ. Christ Iesus † hath called & severed his servants out of and from the world . How then should this confused and mixed people be esteemed the orderly gathered true planted and right constituted Church of God ? Secondly , as they have reteyned the whole ●rout of the popish multitude without any distinctiō , for mēbers of their Church ▪ so have they set over them ( as reason was ) the same popish Clergie & Prelacy , which they receved from the Romish Apostasie , and this day is to be found in the popish Churches : to witt , Archbs , Primates , Bbs. Metropolitanes , Suffraganes , Archdeacōs , Deanes , Chauncellors , Commissaries , and the rest of that rable , which rule and govern these assemblyes according to the Popish Canons , Rites , and Customes . These have the power and aucthoritie in their hands to set forth Injunctions , to make and depose Ministers , to excommunicate both Priests and people , which they do very exquisitly , if they yeeld not vnto them their due homage and obedience . These have both Ecclesiastical and Civil aucthoritie , to reigne as Princes in the Church and live as Lords in the Common wealth , to punish , imprison , and persecute even to death al that dare but once mutter against their vnlawfull proceedings . Of these Prelates tyranny cruelty & vnlawful aucthoritie , the better sort both of preachers and people have cryed out , and long tyme sued vnto the Prince and Parlament to have them removed out of the Church as bei●g the lymmes of Antichrist . But not prevayling . they are now content ( fo● avoyding of the crosse of Christ ) to submit themselves & their soules to this Antichris●tian Hierarchie , and beare the sinful yok● and burthen of their traditions , and to re●ceive and carry about the dreadful and d●●testable marke of the Beast vpon them . Thirdly , the inferiour ministery of tha● Church , consisteth of Priests , Parsons , Vi●cars , Curats , hired preachers or Lecturers , with Clerks and other like Officers , which have received their offices callings and aucthoritie from their forenamed Lords the Prelates to whom they sweare their canonical obedience , and promise to performe it with al● reverence and submission . Their office i● to read over the service book & Bbs Decrees thereby to worship God , to marry , to bu●ry , to church women , to visit the sick , give him the Sacrament , and forgive him al his sinnes : & if their livings or benefices ( as they are called ) amount to a certeine sūme of money in the Princes booke , then must they preach , or get some other to preach for them fower sermons in a yeare in their parish . Where also must be noted that the most part of these Priests are vtterly vnlearned , and cannot preach at all : whereby it commeth to passe that most of the people are as blynd as they were in the dark dayes of popery . These Ministers generally , aswel preachers as other , live in feare & servitude vnder their foresaid Lords the Bbs. For as without their licence written and sealed they cannot preach , so vpon their displeasure and for not obeying their injunctions , they are many tymes suspended , degraded , and if they will not be ruled , put in prison : so that sundry of thē have ben suspended and imprisoned for preaching against the Prelats , not subscribing to their devised Articles and Booke of cōmon prayer , not wearing the sqare cap and surplice , not reading the service booke , & be tyed to the same , not coming to the Bbs courts , visitations , inquisitions , &c. tyll now of late being wearyed with these troubles , they give place to their tyranny , and are content to conforme themselves , and yeeld their canonical obedience according to their oath , ●eeping now silence , yea going back , bearing & bolstering the things which heretofore by word and wryting they stood against , so long as there was any hope that the Prince & Counsel would have hea●kened vnto them , and put these adversary Prelats out of the Church . Fourthly , for administratiō , which is by Law imposed vpon all both Clergie and Laitie , ( for so they distinguish them ) they have gathered their Service book verbatim out of the Masse book , turning out of Latine into English the Suffrages , Prayers , Let any Collects , &c. ( leaving out some of the gross pointes therin ) keping still the old fashio● of Psalmes , Chapters , Pistles , Gospell● versicles , respondes , also T● Deum , Bened●●tus , Magnificat , Nunc dimittis , Our Father Lord have mercy vpon vs , The Lord be wi● you , O Lord open th●w my lyps , Glory to God ● high , Lyft vp your harts , O come let vs reioyc● Glory be to the Father , Quicunque vult , & ● These doe they read dayly morninge an● evening all the yeare long in their priest● vestures , Surplice , cope , &c. some the● saye , and some they sing , having in the Cathedrall Churches , the Organs , Quer●●ters , singing men and boyes , as in tymes pa● in pope●y . Many popish errors yet remayn in that book , which their own preacher have noted , & found fault with . There a● they prescribed what prayers to read ov● the dead , over the co●n & grasse , some time in the yeare . By it are they injoyned ● keep their holy dayes to their Lady ( ● they cal her ) to all Saincts and Angel● to all Christs Apostles , ( except Paul a● Barnabas ) whose eyes they are cōmande● to fast , as also their Lent & Ember day● besides frydayes and saturdayes throug● out the whole year . By this book are t●● Ministers instructed how to marry , wi● the signe of the Ring , &c. to baptise the hallowed Font , with signe of 〈◊〉 crosse , with Godfathers and Godmothers , asking the child whether it wil forsake the devil and all his works , &c. to minister also their other sacrament or communion to the people kneling , as when in popery they received their maker , the words of Christs institution altered , and others in stead of them taken out of the popes portuis , with innumerable such like enormities and fopperies wherewith it swarmeth . And this is all the worship and service which many parishes have vsually , except peradventure some written Homilies which the vnlearned Priests read vnto them . This service must first be read , and hath the preeminence , even on the Lords dayes , before any preaching , yea before the Bible it self . He that can read this book● distinctly , is fit ynough with them to be a Preist , yea many that have ben Artificers , as Shoemakers , Taylers , Weavers , Porters , &c , and without any giftes or knowledg at all , save only to read English , have ben and are admitted , & to this day maynteyned by the Prelats in the Ministerie . To these Churches Ministers & Service must all the people there come every daye , yea though they hav in the next parish a Preacher , and in their own a dumb vnlearned Priest , yet are they all tyed to their owne Church and Minister , and must at the least twise a yeare , receve the Sacramēt at his hāds . If they refuse this , or do not ordinarily come to their parish Church , thē are they sūmoned , excōmunicated , & imprisoned tyl they become obedient ▪ In this bōdage are our countrymen there held vnder their Priests and Prelats : and such as by the word of God witnes against and condemne these abhominations , they hate , punish , put to death , and persecute out of the Land. Who now in whom any spark of true light is . cannot playnly perceive this their Ministery worship and Church to be false & adulterate ? Doth Christs eternall testament ordeyn and approve of such popish Lordes and Prelats to reigne over his Church ? Are these , those Christian Bishops that is * Pastors , Teachers , and Elders , which he hath set in his Church and over his owne people vnto the ende of the world ? Or can those Preachers which are thus created and deposed by , thus sworne and obedient vnto their spirituall Lordes , be deemed true Teachers of the Gospell of Christ lawfully called and ordeyned to that Ministerye ? Is that their English Masse the ‡ trew & spirituall worship of God according to his owne wil ? We are taught in the scriptures † that there can be no agrement made betwixt Christ and Antichrist , betwixt the Lawes of God and mens traditions ; that the servants of Iesus may not submitt vnto or receive the marke of that Beast , neyther drinke of the cup of the whore of Babylons fornications , or buy any of her wares ; but must | contend for the mayntenance of that saith which was once gyven vnto the saincts , keeping their souls and bodyes pure frō Antichristiā pollutions , touching ‡ no vnclean thing , nor having any fellowship with the vnfruteful works of darknes , least * by partaking with their synnes they receve also of their plagues , & drynck of the wyne of the wrath of God , & be tormented in fyre and brimstone , before the holy Angels and before the Lamb for evermore . If Christ be God , let vs follow him : but if the Pope be God , what shall we say ? Why have we left him , his Church and ministery , his worship & jurisdiction , or what halting and mocking with the Lord is this , to put away the Popes person , and reteyne his Prelacy and Ministery , his Lawes , Traditions and Canons , his worship & service : or at the least to frame vnto our selves a worship Ministery and Church after the patterne and mould of the Apostasy of Rome ? which what other thing is it , then to make an Image of that wild beast , and force men to worship it ? Thus seest thow briefely ( good Christian Reader ) the thinges which we mislike in the Church of England , and for which we have separated our selves as God commaundeth . To all these , if we were amongst them , should we be forced to submitt our bodyes & soules , or els suffer violence at the handes of the Prelats , & end our lives by violent death or most miserable imprisonment , as many of our brethren before vs have done . For so great is the malice and power of those Romysh Priests , that they persecute vnto death such as speak against them : and such poor Christians as they cast into their noysome prysons , can seldome or never get out ( except with shipwrack of conscience ) vntil they be caryed forth vpon the Bere . Neyther is there any care taken for their relief in this case : but being cast into pryson , there they are deteyned without any alloweance of meat or money for their mayntenance , be their want and poverty never so great . If they have any thing of their own , there they are driven to spend it vp : if they have nothing , there they are left by the Prelates to feed on the ayre . And that they may more readily be sterved , or weakened in the truth , they are cōmonly shut vp in close pryson , their frends & acquayntance being not suffred to come at them : Nay even their wives & children being kept and debarred from them by the tyranny of these bloody Prelats and their Instruments : whose hard harts and vnnaturall cruelty , if thou diddest vnderstand ( gentle Reader ) as many of vs haue felt and to this day yet feel , it would make thy hart to bleed , considering their vnmercyfull and barbarous dealing . And how many soules haue perished in their prisons through miserable vsage , how many have ben put to death , and how many banished , though we could to their eternall infamy relate to all the world , yet wil we not blaze abroad their acts ( for we take no delight in laying opē their shame ) but mourne for them in secret , cōmitting our cause to God that judgeth justly , knowing that he that maketh inquisition for blood remembreth it , and will not forget the complaint of the poore . And thou ( Christian Reader ) vouch safe to remember vnto God in thy prayers such as yet remayne in bandes and pryson amongest them for the testimony of Iesus , enduring a hard sight of afflictions , and having the sentence of death in them selves , are like ( if the Lord send not vnexspected deliverance ) there to end their dayes . Concerning our selves , who through the mercy of God have found a place of rest in this land , for which benefyt we are alwayes and every where humbly thankfull : we desyre ( Christian Reader ) thy charitable and Christian opinion of and holy prayers vnto God for vs , whose kingdome we seek , whose ordinances we desire to establish and obey : protesting with good consciences , that it is the truth of his Gospel only for which we strive against those cursed reliques of Antichristian apostasie : vnto which we dare in no wise submit our selves , no not for a moment . For if it be not lawfull for Christians at this day to reteyn the ceremonyes of Moses Law together with the Gospel , as the Passeover , Circumcision , the Priesthood , Sacrifices , &c. which yet were once cōmanded by God himself : how can we think it tollerable to observe the odious ceremonies of Antichrist , or submit our selves to his lawes , Priesthood , Hierarchie , & traditions , which the Lord never allowed , & which never entred into his heart : yea which he hath so severely forbidden , with fearfull judgments threatned vnto all that shal so do . But because we have ben very grievously slaundred in our owne nation , and the bruit thereoff hath followed vs vnto this land , whereby we have ben hardly deemed of by many without cause , we have ben forced at length to publysh this brief but true Confession of our fayth , for the clearing of our selves from sclaunder , and satisfying of many who desired to knowe the thinges we hold . Wherein if in any thing we erre ( as who is so perfit that he erreth not ) we crave ( good Reader ) thy Christian brotherly censure and information , promising alwayes ( through the grace of God ) to yeild vnto the truth when it shall be further shewed vs , and leave our errors when by the light of his word they shal be reproved . In lyke manner it shall be thy par● and duty to acknowledge and submytt vnto the truth , by whomsoever it is professed , looking alwayes rather to the preciousnes of the treasure it self then to the basenes of the vessels which conteyne it , or the infirmities of those that witnes the same : in whose mortall bodyes thow shalt see nothing but the markes and dying of our Lord Iesus Christ. But hold not thy fayth in respect of mens persons , neyther be thow moved at the evyl reports which have ben raised of vs. Here hast thow the trew summe of our Christian saith : try al thinges by the true light of Gods word : and if thou shalt reap any profit by these our labours , give God the glory , and remember vs vnto him in thy prayers . Farewell in Christ Iesus . 1596. THE CONFESSION of Fayth of certaine English people , living in the Low countreyes , exiled . VVE beleeve with the heart & confesse with the mouth . I. THat there is but † one God , one Christ , one Spirit , one Church , on● truth , one Faith , one true Religion , | on● rule of godlines & obedience for al Chri●●tians , in all places , at all tymes , to be observed . II. God is a * spirit , whose ‡ being is 〈◊〉 himself , and giveth beeing , moving , & preservation to al other things , being himself † eternal , most holy , every way infinite , in greatnes , wisdome , power , goodnes , justice , truth , &c. In this Godhead there be | three distinct persons , coeternal , coequal , and coessential , being every one of them one and the same God , & therfore not divided but distinguished one from another by their several and peculiar propertie : The Father , of whom are the other persons , but he of none ; the Sonne , begotten of the Father from everlasting ; the holy Ghost , proceeding from the Father and the Sonne before all beginnings . III. God hath * decreed in himself from everlasting touching al things , and the very least circumstances of every thing , effectually to work and dispose them according to the counsel of his own will , to the glory of his name . And touching his chiefest creatures , GOD hath in Christ ‡ before the foundation of the world , according to the good pleasure of his will , foreordeyned some men and Angels , to eternall lyfe , to be accomplished through Iesus Christ , to the prayse of the glorie of his grace . And hath also † of old according to his just purpose foreappointed other both Angels and men , to eternall condēnation , to be accōplished through their own corruption and desert , to the prayse of his justice . IIII. In the | beginning , God made al things of nothing very good : and created man * after his own image and likenes in righteousnes and holynes of truth . But ‡ streightwayes after , by the subtilty of the serpent which Satan vsed as his instrument ( † himself with his Angels having sinned before , & not kept their first estate , but left their owne habitation : ) first | Eva , then Adam being seduced , did wittingly and willingly fall into disobedience and transgression of the cōmaundement of God. For the which , * death came vpon all , and reigneth over al : yea even ‡ over infants also , which have not synned after the like manner of the transgression of Adam , that is , actually : Hence also it is , that all since the fall of Adam , are begotten † in his own likenes after his image , being conceived and formed in iniquity , and so by nature children of wrath and servants of sinne , and subject to death , and all other calamities due vnto sinne , in this world and for ever . V. Al mankind being thus fallen and become altogether dead in sinne , & subject to the eternall wrath of God , both by original and actuall corruption : Yet * the elect , al and onely , are redeemed , quickned , raysed vp and saved again , not of themselves , neyther by works ( least any man should boast himself ) but wholly and only by God , of his free grace and mercy ; through faith in Christ Iesus , † who of God is made vnto vs wisdome , and righteousnes , and sanctification , and redemption , that according as it is written , He that reioyceth should reioyce in the Lord. VI. This therefore is * lyfe eternal , to know the only true God , and whom he hath sent into the world Iesus Christ. And on the contrary , the ‡ Lord will render vengeance in flaming fire vnto them that know not God , and which obey not the Gospel of our Lord Iesus Christ. VII . Now the rule of this knowledg faith and obedience , concerning the worship and service of God and all other christian dutyes , is not mens opinions , devises , lawes , constitutions , or traditions vnwritten whatsoever , but only the written word of God , conteined in the Canonicall books of the old and new Testament . VIII . In this written word , God hath plainely reveled whatsoever he thought needfull for vs to know beleev and acknowledge , touching the persō & Office of Iesus Christ ; in whō all the promises of God are Yea , and in whom they are Amen , to the prayse of God through vs. IX . Touching his Person , the Lord Iesus , of whom ‡ Moses & the Prophets wrote , and whom the Apostles preached , is the ‡ everlasting Sonne of God the father by eternal generation , the brightnes of his glorie , & the engraven forme of his Person , coessential coequal & coeternal God with him and with the holy Ghost : By whom he made the worlds , by whom he vpholdeth and governeth all the works he hath made : Who also , † when the fulnes of tyme was come , was made man of a woman , of the | Tribe of Iudah , of * the seed of David and Abraham , to wyt , of Mary that blessed Virgin , by the holy Ghost comming vpon her , & the power of the most High overshadowing her : and was also † in all things like vnto vs , sinne only excepted . X Touching his Office , Iesus Christ * only is made the Mediator of the new Testamēt , even of the everlasting Covenant of grace between God & Man , to be ‡ perfectly and fully the Prophet , Priest , and King of the Church of God for evermore . XI . Vnto this office , he was from everlasting * by the iust and sufficiēt authority of the Father , & in respect of his Manhood , from the wōb , called & separated ‡ & anoynted also most fully & abundantly with all ne●cessary gifts , as it is writtē , God hath not measured out the Spirit vnto him . XII , This office to be Mediator , that is , Prophet , Priest , and King of the Church of God , is so proper to Christ , as neyther in the whole , not in any part thereof , it can be transferred from him to any other . XIII . Touching his Prophecie , Christ * hath perfectly revealed out of the bosome of his Father , the whole word and will of God , that is needfull for his servants , eyther joyntly or severally to know beleev or obey : He also † hath spoken and doth speak to his Church in his own ordinance , by his own Ministers and instruments onely , and not by | any false Ministerie at any tyme. XIIII . Touching his Priesthood , Christ * being consecrated , hath appeared once to put away sinne , by the offring and sacrificing of himself : and to this end hath fully performed & suffred all those things by which God through the blood of that his crosse , in an acceptable sacrifice , might be reconciled to his elect , and the blessing of Abraham come vpon vs to eternal life wherefore also having † broken down th● partition wal , and therewith finished and removed all those rites , shadowes , and ceremonies , he is now entred within the vayle into the holy of holies , that is t● the very heaven , and presence of God where hee for ever liveth and sitteth a● the right hand of Majestie appearing before the face of his Father , to make intercession for such as come vnto the throne of grace by that new and living way : and not that onely , but maketh | his people aspiritual howse , an holy Priesthood , to offer vp spiritual sacrifices , acceptable to God through him . Neyther doth the Father accept or Christ offer vnto the Father any other worship , or worshippers . XV. Towching his Kingdome , Christ * being ●isen from the dead , ascended into heaven , set at the right hand of God the Father , having al power in heaven and earth given vnto him , he doth spiritually govern his Church : exercising his power ‡ over all Angels and men , good and bad , t● the preservation and salvation of the elect to the overruling and destruction of th● reprobate : | communicating & applying the benefits , vertue , & frute of his prophecy and priesthood vnto his elect , namely to th● remissiō , subduing , & taking away of thei● syns , to their iustificatiō , adoptiō of sōnes regeneration , sanctificatiō , preservation & strengthning in all their conflicts against Sathan , the world , the flesh , & the temptations of them : continually dwelling in governing , and keeping their harts in h●● true faith & fear by his holy spirit : which having ‡ once given it , hee never take● away from them , but by it still begette● and norisheth in them repentance , faith love , obedience , comfort , peace , ioy hope , and all Christian vertues , vnto im●mortalitie ; notwithstanding that it b● somtymes through sinne and tentatio● interrupted , smothered , and as it were o●erwhelmed for the tyme. And on th● contrary , † ruling in the world over 〈◊〉 enemies , Sathan , and all the vessels of wrath , limiting , vsing , restreyning them ●y his mighty power , as seemeth good ●n his divine wisdome and justice , to the execution of his determinate counsell , ●o wit , to their seduction , hardning , and condemnation , delivering them vp to a reprobate mynd , to be kept through their ●wn desert in darcknes , sinne , and sensualitie , vnto judgment . XVI The Kingdome shal be then fully perfected , when he shal the second tyme come in glorie with his mightie Angels , to judg both quick and dead , to abolish a rule authoritie and power , to put all his enemies vnder his feet , to separate and free all his chosen from them for ever● to punish the wicked with everlasting perdition from his presence , to gather ioyne , and carry the godly with himsel● into endles glory , and then to delive● vp the kingdome to God , even the Fa●ther , that so the glorie of the Father ma● be full and perfect in the Sonne , the glo●rie of the Sonne in all his members , & God be all in all . XVII . In the meane tyme , besides his absolute rule in the world , Christ hath her● in earth * a spirituall Kingdome & oeco●nomical regiment in his Church , which he hath purchased and redemed to him●elf , as a peculiar inheritance . And albeit that many hypocrites do for the time ●urke amongst them ‡ whiles the Church 〈◊〉 militant here on earth , yet Christ notwithstanding | by the power of his word gathereth them which be his into the body of his Church , calleth them from out of the world , bringeth them to his ●●ue faith , separating them * frō amongst ●nbeleevers , frō idolatrie , false worship . ●uperstition , vanitie , dissolute life , and 〈◊〉 works of darknes , &c. making them ● royal Priesthood , an holy nation , a peo●le set at libertie , to shew foorth the vir●es of him that hath called them out of ●arknes into his marvelous light ; gathe●ing and vniting them together , as † mem●ers of one body , in his faith , love , and ●oly order , vnto all generall and mutu●l dutyes , through his spirit instructing and governing them by such Officers & ●awes as he hath prescribed in his word , ●y which Officers and Lawes he gover●eth his Church , and by ‡ none other . XVIII . To this Church hee hath made the * pr●●mises , and given the seales of his Cov●nant , presence , love , blessing & protecti● Here are the ‡ holy Oracles , as in t● Arke , surely kept and puerly taught . H● are all the † fountaynes and springs of ● grace continually replenished & flowi● forth . Heer is Christ | lifted vp to all N●●tions , hither * hee inviteth all men to ● supper , his mariage feast : hither ou●● ‡ all men of al estates and degrees , that ● knowledge him their Prophet , Priest a● King to repayre , to be enrolled amongst his houshold servants , to be vnder his heavenly conduct and government , to lead their lives in his walled sheepfold and watered orchard , to have communion heer with the Saincts , that they may be made meet to be partakers of theyr inheritance in the kingdome of God. XIX . And as * all his servants and subjects are called hither , to present their bodies and soules , and to bring the gyfts God hath given them , so being come , they are heer by himself bestowed in their severall order , peculiar place , due vse , being fitly compact and knit together by every joynt of help , according to th● effectuall work in the measure of ever● part , vnto the edification of it self in lov● Wherevnto when he † ascended vp o● high he gave gifts vnto men , and distributed them vnto several publik function in his Church , having instituted and ra●tified to continue vnto the worlds end only this publick ordinarie ministery o● Pastors , Teachers , Elders , Deacons , Helpers , 〈◊〉 the instruction , government , and service of his Church . XX , This Ministerie is exactly * descrbed distinguished , limited concerning their office , their calling to their office their administration of their office , and their maintenance in in their office , by most perfect and plaine lawes in Gods word : which ‡ lawes it is not lawfull for these Ministers , or for the whole Church wittingly to neglect , transgresse , or violate in any part , nor yet to receive any other lawes brought into the Church by any person whatsoever . XXI . None * may vsurp or execute a ministerie , but such as are rightly called by the Church wherof they stand Ministers , vnto such offices , and in such maner , as God hath prescribed in his word . And being so called , they ought to giue all diligence to fulfil their Ministery to be foūd faithfull and vnblameable in all things . † XXII . This Ministerie is alike given to every Christian congregation , with like and equal power and commission to have & enjoy the same , as God offereth fit men and meanes , the same rules given to all for the election and execution thereof in all places . XXIII , As every Christian congregation * hath power and commandement to elect and ordeine their owne Ministerie according to the rules in Gods word prescribed , & whilest they shall faithfully execute their office , to have them † in superabundant love for their worke sake , to provide for them , to honour them & reverence them , according to the dignitie of the office they execute : So have they also | power and commandement , when anie such default , eyther in their life , doctrine , or administration breaketh out , as by the rule of the word debarreth them from , or depriveth them of their Ministerie , by due order to depose them from the Ministerie they exercised : yea if the case so require , and they remain obstinate & impenitent , orderly to cut them off by excommunication . XXIIII . Christ * hath given this power to receive in or to cut of any member , to the whole body together of every Christian congregation , and not to any one member apart , or to more members sequestred from the whole , or to any other Congregation to do it for them : Yet so , as ech Congregation ought to vse the ‡ best help they can heervnto , and the most meet member they have to pronounce the same in their publick assembly . XXV , Every member● of each Christian congregation , how excellent , great , or learned soever , ought to be subiect to this censure & judgment of Christ : Yet ought not the Church without great care and due advise to proced against such publick persons . XXVI , As Christ hath * for the keeping of this Church in holy and orderly communion , placed some speciall men over the Church , who by their office are to governe , oversee , visite , watch &c. So ‡ lykewise for the better keeping thereof in all places , by all the members , hee hath given authority and layd duty vpon them all to watch one over another . XXVII . Finally , whilest the Ministers & people thus remayne together in this holy order & Christian communion , ech one endevoring to do the wil of God in their calling , and thus to walke to the glory of God , in the obedience of faith : Christ hath promised to be present with them , to blesse & defend them against all fraud and force of theyr enemyes , so as the gates of hell shall not prevaile against thē . XXVIII . But when and where this holy order and diligent watch was intermitted , neglected , violated : Antichrist that man of sinne , did together with other points of Christian faith corrupt also and alter the holy ordinances , offices , and administrations of the Church : and in stead thereof brought in , and erected a strange new forged ministerie , Leitourgie , and government . Yea and the nations kingdoms and inhabitants of the earth were made druncken with this cup of fornications and abominations , and al people enforced to receive the Beasts mark and worship his image , and so brought into confusion and Babylonish bondage . XXIX . The present Hierarchie reteyned and vsed in England of Archbs , Primates , Lordbps , Metropolitanes , Suffraganes , Deanes , Prebendaries , Canons , Peticanons , Archdeacōs , Chancellors , Commissaries , Priests , Deacons or Halfpriests , Parsons , Vicars , Curats , Hierling roving Preachers , Church-wardēs , Parish-clerks : Also their Doctors , Proctors , and other Officers of their spiritual Courts ( as they call them ) together with the whole rable of the Prelats , and their Servitours from and vnder them set over these Cathedrall and Parishionall Assemblies in this confusion , are a strange & Antichristian Ministerie and Offices : and are not that Ministerie above named , instituted in Christs Testament , nor placed in or over his Church . XXX , These their Popish Offices , Entrance , Administration , and Maintenance , with their names , titles , privileges , & prerogatives : also the power and rule they vsurp over and in these Ecclesiasticall assemblies , over the whole Ministration and affaires therof , yea one over another , creating Priests , citing , suspēding , silencing , deposing , absolving , excommunicating , &c , Their confounding of Ecclesiasticall & Civill jurisdiction , causes , and procedings in their persons , Courts , Cōmissions , Visitations , the Priests of lesse rule taking their Ministery from & exercising it vnder them by their prescription & limitation , swearing Canonical obedience vnto thē , administring by their devised imposed stinted popish Leitourgie , &c. Finally the dispensations which they vse for Plurality of benefices , licences of Non residency , Licences to mary and eat flesh ( both which with them are on certain dayes & tymes forbidden , &c , ) These , we say , are sufficient proofes of the former assertion , the particulars therin being duly examined by & compared to the rules of Christs Testament . Not to speak here , of their private Baptisme , of the signe of the Crosse vsed in Baptisme , of questions propounded to the infants , of the Priests surplice , prayer over the dead at buriall , kneeling at the Lords supper , and other the like popish corruptions , almost infinite , reteyned and allowed among them . XXXI . These Ecclesiastical Assemblies , remayning thus in confusion & bondage vnder this Antichristian Ministerie , Courts , Canons , worship , Ordinances &c. without freedom and power to redresse any enormitie among them , cannot be said in this confusion and subiection , truly to have Christ their Prophet Priest and King , neither can be in this estate ( whilest we judg them by the rules of Gods word ) estemed the true , visible , orderly gathered or cōstituted Churches of Christ , whereof the faithful may become or stād Members , or have anie spirituall communion with them in their publick worship and Administration . XXXII . Therfore are * al that will be saved , bound by Gods commandement , with speed to come forth of this Antichristian estate , leaving the suppression of it ‡ vnto the Magistrate to whom it belongeth . And all such also as have | received or exercised any of these false Offices or any pretended function or Ministerie in or to this false and Antichristian constitution , are willingly in Gods feare to give over aud leave those vnlawfull Offices , and no longer to minister in this maner to these assemblies in this estate . Neyther may * any of what sort or conditiō soever , give any part of their goods , Lands , Money , or money worth to the maintenance of this false Ministerie and worship , vpon any cōmandement or vnder any colour whatsoever . XXXIII . And being come forth of this Antichristiā-estate vnto the freedom & true profession of Christ , besides the * instructing and well guyding of their owne families , they are willingly to ‡ ioyne together in Christian communion and orderly covenant , and by free confession of the faith & obedience of Christ to vnite themselves into | peculiar & visible Congregations : wherin , as mēbers of one body wherof Christ is the only head , they are to worship and serve God according to his word , remēbring to ‡ keep holy the Lords day . XXXIIII . Then also * such to whom God hath given gifts to interpret the Scriptures , tryed in the exercise of Prophecy , attending to studie and learning may and ought ( by the appointment of the Congregation ) to prophesie , according to the proportion of faith , and so to teach publickly the word of God , for the edification , exhortation and comfort of the Church : Vntill such tyme as the people be meet for and God manifest men with able gifts and fitnes to such Office or Offices as Christ hath appointed to the publick Ministerie of his Church : But ‡ no Sacraments to be administred vntil the Pastors or Teachers be chosen and ordeined into their Office. XXXV . And then wheresoever there shall be a people fit , and men furnished with meet and necessary gifts , they are not onely still to continue the exercise of Prophesy aforesayd , but also ‡ vpon due tryal to proceed vnto choyce and ordination of Officers for the Ministery and service of the Church , according to the rule of Gods word : & so hold on * stil to walk forward in the wayes of Christ for their mutuall edification and comfort , as it shall please God to give knowledg and grace therevnto . And particularly , that such as be † of the seed , or vnder the government of any of the Church , be even in their infancie received to Baptisme and made partakers of the signe of Gods covenant made with the Faithful & their seed throughout all generations . And that al | of the Church that are of yeares , and able to examine themselves , d● communicate also in the Lords supper , both men and women , and in ‡ both kinde● bread and wine . In which * clements as also in the water of baptisme , even after they are consecrate , there is neyther transubstantiation into , nor consubstantiation with the body and blood of Iesus Christ : whom the heavens must conteyn , vntil the time that all things be restored : But they are † in the ordinance of God signes and seales of Gods everlasting covenant with vs , representing & offring | to all the receivers , but exhibiting only to the true beleevers the Lord Iesus Christ & al his benefits vnto righteousnes , sanctification , and eternal lyfe , through faith in his name , to the glorie and prayse of God. XXXVI . Thus being rightly gathered , established , & stil proceeding in Christian cōmunion and obedience of the Gospell of Christ , none is to separate for faults and corruptiōs , which may & so long as the Church consisteth of mortall men will fall out & arise among them , even in true constituted Churches , but by due order to seeke redres●e thereof . XXXVII . Such as yet see not the truth , may not withstanding * heare the publik doctrine and prayers of the church , and with a meeknes are to bee sought by al meanes Yet none who are growen in yeares may be received into their cōmunion as members , ‡ but such as do make confession of their faith , publickly desiring to be received as members , and promising to walk in the obedience of Christ. Neyther any infants , † but such as are the seed of the faithfull by one of the parents , or vnder their education and government . And further | not any from one congregation to be received members in another , without bringing certificate of their former estate & present purpose . XXXVIII . And although the particular Congregations be thus distinct and severall bodies , every one as a compact and knit citie in it self , yet are they al to walke by one and the same rule , and by all meanes convenient to have the counsel and help one of another in all needfull affaires of the Church , as members of one body in the common faith , vnder Christ their onely head . XXXIX . It is the office and duty of Princes & Magistrates ( who by the ordinance of God are * supreme governours vnder him over all persons and causes within their Realmes and dominions ) to † suppresse and root out by their authoritie al false Ministeries , voluntarie religions , & counterfeit worship of God ; to abolish and destroy the Idol Temples , Images , Altars , Vestments , & all other monuments of Idolatry and superstition ; and to take and convert to their own civill vses not only the benefit of all such idolatrous buildings and monuments , but also the Revenues , Demeanes , Lordships , Possessions , Gleabes , and Maintenance of any false Ministeries , and vnlawfull ecclesiasticall functions whatsoever within their dominions . And on the other hand , ‡ to stablish and mainteyn by their lawes every part of Gods word , his Christian Religion , pure worship , and true Ministery described in his word ; to cherish and protect all such as are careful to worship God according to his word , and to lead a godly lyfe in al peace and loyalty ; yea to enforce al their subjects whether Ecclesiasticall or Civil , to do their dutyes to God and men , protecting & mainteining the good , punishing and restreyning the evil , according as God hath commaunded , whose Lieutenants they are here on earth . XL. And thus the protectiō & cōmandement of the Princes and Magistrates maketh it much more * peaceable , though no whit at all ‡ more lawfull , to walke in the wayes and ordinances of Iesus Christ : which he hath commanded his Church to keep without spot and vurebukeable vntill his appearing in the end of the world , And in this behalf , therefore , the brethren thus mynded and proceding as is before said , are both cōtinually to † supplicate to God and as they may , to their Princes & Governors , that thus & vnder thē they may lead a quiet and peaceable lyfe in al godlines and honestie . XLI . And if God encline the Magigstrates hearts to the allowance and protection of the Church therein , it ought to be accoūted a singular & happy blessing of God who grāteth such noursing Fathers & Mothers to his Church . And it behoveth al to be careful to walk worthie so great a mercy of God , in all thankfulnes and obedience . XLII , But if God withold the Magistrates allowance & furtherance herein , yet * must wee notwithstanding proceed together in Christian covenant & cōmunion thus to walke in the obedience of Christ and confession of his faith and Gospel , even through the middest of all tryalls & afflictiōs , not accounting our goods , lands , wives , children , Fathers , Mothers , brethren , sisters , no nor our lives , dear vnto vs , so as wee may finish our course with joy , remembring alwayes that we ought to obey God rather then man : & grounding vpon the ‡ commandement , commission , & promise of our Saviour Christ , who as he hath all power in heaven and in earth , so hath also promised ( if we keep his commandements , which hee hath given without limitation of tyme , place , Magistrates allowance or disallowance ) to be with vs vnto the end of the world : and when we have finished our course and kept the faith , to give vs the crown of righteousnes which is layd vp for all that love his appearing . XLIII . Vnto al men is to be given whatsoever is due vnto them . Tributes , Customes , and all other such lawfull & accustomed dutyes , ought willingly and orderly to be payed and performed : Our lands , goods , and bodyes , to be submitted in the Lord to the Magistrates pleasure . And the Magistrates themselves every way to be acknowledged , reverenced , and obeyed according to godlines , not because of wrath onely but also for conscience sake : And finally , all men so to be estemed and regarded , as is due and meet for their place , age , estate and condition . XLIIII . And thus , we labour to giue vnto God y t which is Gods & vnto Cesar that which is Cesars , and vnto all men , that which belongeth vnto them : Endevoring our selves to have alwayes a cleare conscience towards God and towards men : And having hope in God that the resurrection of the dead shal be of the just vnto life , & of the vnjust vnto condemnation , everlasting . Now if any take this to be heresie , then do we with the Apostle freely confesse that after the way which they call heresie , we worship God the Father of our Lord Iesus Christ , beleeving all things that are written in the Law and in the Prophets and Apostles : and whatsoever is according to this rule of truth published in our owne countrey or holden by any reformed Churches in their Confessions abroad in the world . We do also reiect and detest all straunge and heretical opinions & doctrines of all Hereticks both old and new whatsoever . XLV . Finally , whereas we are much slaundered and traduced as if we denyed or misliked that forme of prayer commonly called the Lords prayer : we thought it needful here also cōcerning it to make known , that we beleev and acknowledg it to be a most absolute and most excellent forme of prayer , such as no men nor Angels can set downe the like . And that it was taught and appointed by our Lord Iesus Christ , not that we should be tyed to the vse of those very words , but that we should according to that rule make all our requests and thankesgiving vnto God , forasmuch as it is a perfect forme & patterne , conteining in it plaine & sufficient directions of prayer , for all occasions & necessities , that have ben , are , or shal be , to the Church of God , or any member therof , to the end of the world . Now vnto him that is able to keep vs that woe fal 〈◊〉 and to present vs faultlesse before the presence of his glory with ioy , that is , to God only wise , our Saviour , be glory and maiestie , and dominion , & power , both now 〈◊〉 for ever , Amen . ¶ The heads of the differences between vs and the Church of England as it standeth at this day , concerning divers corruptions of Antichrist yet remayning among them . I. THat Christ the Lord hath by his last Testament given to his Church , and set therein , sufficient ordinary Offices , with the maner of calling or Entrance , Works , and Maintenance , for the administration of his holy things , and for the sufficient ordinary instruction guydance & service of his Church , to the end of the world . 2. That every particular Church hath like & full interest & power to enioy and practise all the ordinances of Christ given by him to his Church to be observed therein perpetually . 3. That a true visible Church , is a company of people called and separated from the world by the word of God , and ioyned together by voluntarie profession of the faith of Christ , in the fellowship of the Gospell . And that therefore no prophane persons , vnbeleevers or wicked livers , may be received reteyned or c●̄pelled to be members in the Church of Christ , which is his body ; God having in all ages appointed & made a separation of his people from the world , before the Law , vnder the Law , & now in the tyme of the Gospel . 4. That discreet , faithfull , & able men ( though not yet in office of Ministerie ) may preach the Gospell and whole truth of God , that men being first brought to knowledg , & converted to the Lord , may then be ioyned together in holy comunion with Christ our head and one with another . 5. That being thus ioyned , every Church hath power in Christ to chuse and take vnto themselves meet and sufficient persons , into the Offices and functions of Pastors , Teachers , Elders , Deacons and Helpers , as those which Christ hath appointed in his Testament , for the feeding , governing , serving , & building vp of his Church . And that no Antichristian Hierarchie or ministerie , of Popes . Arch-bishops , Lord bishops , Suffraganes , Deanes , Arch-deacons , Chauncellors , Parsons , Vicars , Priests , Dumb-ministers , or any such like , may be set over the Spouse & Church of Christ , nor reteined therein . 6. That the Ministers aforesaid being lawfully called by the Church where they are to administer , ought to continew in their functions according to Gods ordinance , and carefully to f●ed the flock of Christ cōmitted vnto them , being not inioyned or suffred to beare Civil offices withall , neither burthened with the execution of Civil affaires , as the celebration of mariage , bu●ying the dead &c. which things belong aswel to those without as within the Church . 7. That the due maintenance of the Officers aforesayd , should be of the free and voluntarie contribution of the Church , that according to Christs ordinance , they which preach the Gospel may live of the Gospel : and not by Popish Lordships and livings , or Iewish Tithes & Offerings . And that therefore the Lands & other like revenewes of the Prelats & Clergie yet remayning ( being still also baits to allure the Iesuites & Seminaries into the Land , & incitements vnto them to plot & prosecute their woonted evil courses , in hope to enioy them in tyme to come ) may and ought to be taken away , & converted to better vse , as those of the Abbeyes & Nunneries have been heretofore by the Princes power and authority , to the honor of God & great good of the Reālme . 8. That al particular Churches ought to be so constituted , as having their own peculiar Officers , the whole body of every Church may meet together in one place , & ioyntly perform their duties to God & one towards another . And that the censures of admonition and excommunicatiō should in due maner be executed , for sinne , convicted , & obstinatly stood in . This power also to be in the body of the Church whereof the parties so offending & persisting are members . 9. That the Church is not to be governed by Popish Canons , Courts , Classes , Customes , or any humane inventions , but by the Lawes & rules which Christ hath appointed in his Testament . That no Apocrypha writings , but only the Ca●nical scriptures are to be vsed in the Church . And that the Lord is to be worshipped and called vpon in spirit & truth , according to that forme of praier given by the Lord Iesus , Mat. 6. & after the Leitourgie of his own Testament , not by any other framed or imposed by men , much lesse by one translated from the Popish 〈◊〉 , as the Book of common praier &c. 10. That the Sacraments , being seales of Gods covenant , ought to be administred onely to the faithful , & Baptisme to their seed or those vnder their government . And that according to the simplicitie of the Gospel , without any Popish or other abuses , in either Sacrament . 11. That the Church is not to be vrged to the observation of dayes & tymes , Iewish or Popish , save only to sanctify the Lords day : Neyther to be laden in thinges indifferent , with rites & ceremonies , Whatsoever invented by men ; but that christian libertie may be rete●ned : And what God hath left f●ee , none to make bound . 12. That al monuments of Idolatry in garments or any other things , al Temples , Altars , Chappels , & other places dedicated heertofore by the Heathèns or Antichristians to their fa 〈…〉 worship , ought by aucthoritie to be rased & bolished , not suffered to remayne , for nourishing superstition , much lesse imploied to the tr 〈…〉 worship of God. 13. That Popish degrees in Theologie , i 〈…〉 forcement to single life in Colledges , abuse the study of prophane heathen Writers , w 〈…〉 other like corruptions in Schooles & Academi 〈…〉 should be removed & redressed , that so th 〈…〉 may be the welsprings & 〈◊〉 series of true lea●ning & godlines . 14. Finally that all Churches & peop●● ( without exception ) are bound in Religion on 〈…〉 ly to receive & submit vnto that constitution Ministerie , Worship , & order , which Christ Lord & King hath appovnted vnto his Churc● & not to any other devised by Man whatsoeve●● Let him that readeth , consider . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A08068-e260 Act. 28 2 Rev , 〈…〉 ●al . 105. ● , 14. Pet. 2 , 9. Psal. 46 , 1 Rev. 2. 5. * 2 Cor. 6. 1. ● ▪ 15. &c Psa. 94. 20. 2 Thes. 2. 3. | Ps. 37. 2● ▪ Ier. 51. 6. Rev. 18. 4. & 14. 1. Neh. 6. 6. 7. ● . Harmon . of Confes. ‡ 1 Pet. 2. 5. Ier. 51. 26. * Act. 2. 38. 40. 41. and 8. 36. 37. & 15 9. Ioh 10. 3. 4 5. Esa. 35. 8. 9. | Ioh. 15. 2. 5. Mat. 18. 15. 17 Lev. 13. 46. Num. 4. 13. † Iohn . 15. 19. & 17. 14. 16 Mat. 3. 12. Lev. 20. 24. ●6 . 1 Iohn . 4. 5. 6. About forty ecclesiasticall popish offices are at this day in the Church of England , never a one appointed by Christ in his Testament . With what words and rites , in what habit and gesture , these things are to be done , they are taught in their Rubrik . Some of them in certaine English books set forth , have reckned above 100. popish corruptiōs yet reteyned in this Church . * Rom. 12. 1. Cor. 12. Eph. 4. 11. 12 13. ‡ Ioh. 4. 24. Mat. 15. 9. † Deut. 6. 4. 5 Mat. 16. 6. ● Cor. 6. 14. 15. Psal. 106. 34. 35. 36. | Iudo . vers . 3. ‡ 2 Cor. 6. 17. Eph. 5. 11. * Rev. 18. 4. & 14. 10 , 11. Mat. 6. 24. 2 Kin. 16. 10 , 11 , 12. Rev●l . 13. 12. 14. 15. 〈◊〉 . 51. 6. Mi● 2. 10. Rev. 18. 4. 2 Cor. 6. 17. 〈…〉 . 40. Psal. 9. 12. Heb. 13. 3. Gal. 4. 4. 5. 6. & . 5. 1. 2. Heb. 8. & 9. & 10. chap. 2. Cor. 4. ● Iam. 2. ● . Notes for div A08068-e1480 † Deut 6. 4. 1 Tim. 2. 5. Eph. 4. 4. 5. 6. 1 Cor. ● . 6. & 12. 4. 5. 6. 13. Ier. 6. 16. Ioh. 14. 6. | 1 Tim. 6. 3. 13. 14. Mat. 15. 9. & 28. 20. Deut. 4. 2. 6. & 12. 32 1 Cor 4. 17. & 14. 33. 2 Tim. ● 15. 16. 17. Gal ▪ 8. 9. Revel . 2● 18 , 19. * Ioh. 4. 24. ‡ Exod. 3. 14. Rom. 11. 36. Act 17. 28. † 1 Tim. 1. 17. Esa. 6. 3. & 66 1. 2. | 1 Iohn . 5 , 7. Mat. 28. 19. Pro. 8. 22. Heb. 1. 3. & 9. 14. Phil. 2. 6. 1 Cor. 8. 6. Micah . 5. 2 Psal. 2. 7. Gal. 4. 6. Iohn . 1. 1. 2. 18. & 10. 30. 38. & 15. 26. * Esa. 46. 10. Rom. 11. 34. 35. 36. Gen , 45. 5. 6. 7. 8. Mat. 10. 29 30. Eph. 1. 11 ‡ Eph. 1. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 10. 11. Mat. 25. 34. 2 Tim. 1. 9. Act. 13. 48 1 Tim. 5. 21. Col 1 , 14 17 18. 19. 20 & 2. 10. Iob 1. 6. Rev. 19. 10 1 Thes. 5. 9. Rom 8. 29. 30. & 9. 23. † Iud. v. 4. & 6. Rom. 9. 11. 12. 13. 17. 18. 22. with Exod. 9 16. Mal. 1. 3. Mat. 25. 41. Iob 4. 18. 2 Pet. 2. 4. 12. 1 Peter 2. 8. Ioh. 3. 19 Rom. 2. 5. Prov. 16. 4. | Gen. 1. chap. Col. 1. 16. Hebr. 11. 3. Esa. 45. 12 Rev. 4. 11. * Gen. 1. 26. 27. Eph. 4. 24. Col. 3. 10. Eccles. 7. 31. ‡ Gen 3. 1. 4. 5. 2 Cor. 11. 3. † 2 Pet. 2. 4. Iud vers . 6. Iohn . 8. 44. | Gen. 3. 1. 2. 3. 6 1 Tim. 2. 14. Ec. 7. 31. Gal. 3. 22. * Rom. 5. 12. 18 19. & 6. 23. with Gen. 2. 17. ‡ Rom. 5. 14. & 9. 11. † Gen. 5. 3. & 6 5. Psal. 51. 5. Eph. 2. 3. Rom. 5. 12. Deut. 27. 26. & 28. 15. &c. * Gen. 3. 15. Eph 1. 3-7 . & 2-49 1 Thes. 5. 9. 1 Pet 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. Gē . 15. 6. with Rō . 4 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 22. 23. 24. 25. Act. 13. 38. 39. 48. Rom. 3. 24. 25. 26. 2 Tim. 1. 9. Phil. 3. 8. — 11 , † 1 Cor. 1. 30. 31. 2 Cor. 5. 21. Ier. 23. 5. 6. & 9. 23. 24. * Ioh. 17. 3. Heb. 5. 9. Ier. 23. 5. 6. ‡ 2 Thes. 1. 8. Iohn . 3. 36. Zep. 1. 4. 5. 6. Rom. 2. 8. 9. Ioh. 5. 39. 2 Tim 3. 15. 16. 17. Deut. 4. 2. 5. 6. Gen. 6. 22. Exod 20. 4. 5. 6. & 39 42. 43. 1 Chro. 28. 19. Psal. 119 in the whole Psa Esa 8. 19 20. & ●9 . 13. Mat. 15. 9. Col. 2. 8. 18. 23. Luk. 16. 29. 30. 31. Gal. 1. 8. 9. 2 Pet. 1. 16. 19. & 3. 2. Rev. 22. 18. 19. Deut. 18. 18. Act. 3. 22. 23. Heb. 1● . 2. and through the Epistle . Ioh. 1. 1. 14. 18. & 12. 49. 50 & 15 , 15 & 20. 31. Prov. 8. 8. 9. and 30. 5 6. 2 Tim. 3. 15. 16. 17. 2 Cor. 1. 20. ‡ Gen. 3. 15. & 22 , 18. & 49. 10 , Dan 7. 13. & 9. 24. 25. 26. Ier , 23. 5. 6. Psa. 2. 2. 6. 7. 12. & 16. 10. & 110. with Luk. 24. 44 Ioh. 5. 46. Actes . 10. 42. 43. & 13. 33. &c. and 17. 3. ‡ Pro. 8. 22. Mic. 5. 2. Iob. 1. 1. 2 , 3 & 12. 37-41 . with Esa. 6. 1. 1● and with Act. 28 25. Heb. 1. chap. Col. 1. 15. 16. 17 & 2. 9. † Gal. 4. 4. Gen. 3. 15. | Heb. 7. 14. Rev. 5. 5. with Gen. 49. 9. 10. * Rom. 1. 3. & 9. 5. Gen. 22 18. Gal. 3. 16. Mat. 1. 1. &c Luk 3. 23. &c. Esa. 7. 14. Luk. 1 , 26 , &c , Heb , 2 , 16 ▪ † Heb , 4 , 15 , Esa , 53 , 3 , 4 , 9 , Phil , 2 , 7 , 8. * 1 Tim. 2 , 5. Heb 9. ●5 . and 13. 20 Dā , 9. 24. 25. Ioh 14. 6. Act. 4. 12. ‡ Heb. 1. 2. & . 3. 1 , 2. 3. & . 7 , 24. & 12. 24 — 28. Psal. 110. 1. 2. 4 & . 45. Deu. 18. 15. 18. Esa. 9. 6 , 7. Act. 5. 31. Esa 55. 4 Dā . 7. 13. 14. Luk , 1. 32. 3● ▪ * Pro. ● . 23. Esa. 42. 6. & 49. 1 , 5 Heb. 5 , 5 , 6. ‡ Esa. 11. 2. 5 & 61. 1 , 2 , 3. with Luk. 4 , 17. 22. Act. 10. 38. Ioh. 1. 14. 16. & 3. 34. 1 Tim , 2 , 5 , Heb , 7 , 24. Dan. 7 , 14 , Act , 4 , 12 , Esa. 43. 11. Luk , 1 , 33. Iohn . 14. 6 , * Ioh. 1. 18. & 12 49. 50. & 15 , 15 and 17 , 8. Deut. 18. 15. 18 19. Act. 3 , 22 , 23 , 24 Mat. 17 5. Eph. 1 8 , 9. 2 Tim. 3. 15 16. 17. † Prov. 9. 3. Ioh. 13. 20. Luk. 10. 16. Mat. 10. 40 , 41. & 28. 18. 20 Deut. 33. 8. 10. Eph. 4. 7 , 8 , 11 , 12 , 13. | Mat. 7. 15 , 16. & . ●4 . 23 , 24. 2 Pet. 2. chap. Tim. 4 , 3. 4. Ro● 10. 14 , 15. & 1● 17. 1 Tim. 6. 3 , ● 5. Ier. 23 21. 〈◊〉 10 , 1 - 5. Rev. ● 3. &c. * Ioh. 17. 19 Heb ● . 7. 8. 9. and 9. ●6 . Esa. 53 ▪ chap. Rom. 5. 19. 1 Pet ● . 2. 19. Eph. 5. 2. Col. 1 , 20. Gal. 3. ●3 . 14. † Eph. 2. 14. 15. 16. Dan. 9. 24. 27. Heb. 9. & 10 chap. Rom ▪ 8. 34 Heb. 4. 14. 16. & 7. 25. Ph. 2. 8-11 . | 1 Pet. 2. 5. Rev. 1. 5 , 6. and 8 3 4 Rom ▪ 12-1 . 12. Mar. 9. 49-50 . Mal. 1. 14. Ioh. 4 23. 24. Mar. 7. 6 7. 8. Esa. 1. 12. &c. * 1 Cor , 15. 4. &c. 1 Pet. 3. 21. ●2 . Mat. 28. 18. 19 20 , Psal. 2. 6 , Act. 5. 30. 31. Ioh ●9-36 , Rev , 19 , ●6 . Rom , 14 , 17 , ‡ Ios , 5 , 14 , Zac. ● 8 , &c , Mar , 1 , ●7 , Heb. 1. 14 , Iohn , 16 , 7 — 15. | Eph , 5 , ●6 , 27 Rom , 5 , & 6 , & ● & 8 , chap , & 14 , 17 , Gal , 5 , 22 23 , 1 Ioh , 4 , 13 , &c. ‡ Ioh , 13 , 1 , & 10 , 28 , 29 , and 14 , 16 , 17 , & 16 31 , 32 , with Luk , 22 , 31 , 32 , 40. Rom , 11 , 29 , Psa , 51 , 10 , 11 , 12. & 89 , 30-34 , Iob , 33. 29 , 30 , Esa , 54 , 8 , 9 , 10 , 2 Cor 12 , 7 , 8 ▪ 9 , Eph , 6 10. &c. Gal , 5 , 17 , 22. 23. † Iob , 1 , 6 , and 2 , chap , 1 Kin. ● , 19 , Esa , 10 , 5 15 , Rom , 1 , 2 , & 2 , 4. 5 , 6 & 9 , 17 , 18 , Eph , 4 , 17 , 18. 19 , Esa , 57 , 2● , 21 , 2 Peter . 2 , chap , 1 Cor , 15 , 24 , 28 , Dan , 12 , 2 , 3. Ioh , 5 , 22 , 28 , 29 Heb , 9 , 28 , 2 Thes 1 , 9 , 10 , Mat , 13 , 41 , 49 , & 25 , 31. 1 Thes , 4 , 15 16 , 17 , Iohn , 17 , 21 , — 26 1 Cor , 15. 28. * Ioh , 18 , 36 , 1 Tim. 3. 15 , Heb 3 , 6 , 9. & 10. 21 Zach , 4 , 7 , Act , 20 , 28. T it 2 , ●4 , ‡ Mat , 13 , 25 , 47 , & 22 , 12 , Luk , 13 , 25 , 2 Tim , 2 , 20 , | Mar , 16 , 15 , 16 Col , 1 , 21 , 1 Cor , 6 , 11 , Tit , 3 , 3. 4 , 5. * Esa , 52 , 11 , Ezra . 6 , 21 , Act , 2 , 40 , & 17 , 3 , 4. & 19 , 9 , 2 Cor , 6 , 14-18 1 Pet , 2 , 4 , 5 , 9 , 25. † Eph. 4 , 12 , 16 , Esa , 60 , 4 , 8 , Psa , 110 , 3 , Act , 2 , 41 Col , 2. 5 , 6 , Esa , 59 , 21 , & 62 , 6. 1 Iohn . 2. 27 , Ephes. 4 , 7. 8 , 11 , 12 , Ier. 3 , 15 , Ezek , ● chap , Zach , 11 Heb. ●2 . 28. 2 Mat. 28 , 20 1 Tim , 6 , 13 , ● ‡ Mat. 7 , 15. 24 , 23 , 24 , 2● . 4 , 3 , 4. Ier , ● 30 , 31 , and 21 , Deut. 12 ▪ 32. Rev. ● 2 , and 22 , ●9 . * Lev. 26 , 11 , 12. Mat , 28 , 18. 19 , 20. Rom , 9. 4. Esa 59 , 20 , 21 , Ezek. 48. 35 , 2 Cor. 6 , 18. ‡ Esa , 8 , 16 , 1 Tim , 3 , 15 , & 4 , 16 , & 6-3 , 5 , 2 Tim , 2. 15. Tit , 1 , 9 Deu , 31. 26. † Psal , 46 , 4 , 5 Ezek 47 , 1 , &c Ioh , 1 , 16 , and 7 , 38. 39 , Ep 4. 4. 7 | Esa , 11 , 12 , Ioh , 3 , 14 , & 12 , 32 , Esa , 49 , 22 , * Esa 55 , 1 , Mat 6 , 33 , & 22 , 2 , &c , Prov , 9 , 4 , 5 , Ioh 7 ▪ 37 , ‡ Deut , 12 , 5 , 11 , Esa , 2 , 2 , 3 , & 14 1 , & 44 , 5 , zach , 14 , 16 , 17 , 18 , 19 , Act 2 , 41 47 , Heb , 12 , 22 , &c , Psal. 87 , 5 , 6 , Song , 4 , 12. Gal , 6 , 10 , Eph , 2 19 , Col , 1 , 12 , 13. * See Article 18 afore . & Exo. 25 2. & 35. 5. 1 Cor. 12. 4. 5. 6 7. 12. 18. Rom. 12. 4. 5. 6. 1 Pet. 4. 10. Ephes. 4. 16. Col. 2. 5. 6. 19. † Eph. 4. 8. 10. 11. 12. 13. Rom. 12. 7. 8. & 16. 1 1 Cor. 12. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 11. 14. 15. 16. 17. 18. 28. Act. 6. 2. 3. & 14 , 23. & 20. 1● ▪ 28. Phil. 1. 1. 1 Pet. ● . 1. 2. ● 4. 1 Tim. 3. ch● & 5. 3. 9. 17. 〈◊〉 with 6. 13. 1● ▪ Rev 22. 18. 1● ▪ Mat. 28. 20. * Rom , 12 , 7. 8 Eph , 4 , 11. 12 , with the Epis , to Tim , and Tit , A●t , 6 , 3 , 5 , 6 , & 14. 23. & 20 17 , &c. 1 Pet. 5 1 , 2 , 3 , 1 Cor , 5 , 4 , &c , and 9 , 7 9. 14 , and 12 , 4 &c , & Heb. 3. 2 6. & Pro , 8 , 8 , 9 ‡ Heb , 2 , 3 , and 3 , 3 , and , 1● , . 25 , &c. 1 Tim 14-15 . & 6. 13. 14. 2 Tim. 3 , 14 — 17 , Gal , 1 , 8 , 9 , Deut , 4 2 , and 12 , 32. Revel , 22 , 18 , 19 * Heb. 5. 4. Num 16 , 5. 40. & 18. 7. 2 Chron. 26. 18. Iohn . 10. 1. 2. and 3. 27. Act. 6. 3. 5. 6. & 14. 23. Tit. 1. 5. Ier. 23. 21. Num. 8. 9. 10. † Act. 20. 28. 1 Cor. 4. 1. 2. Col. 4. 17. 1 Tim. 1. 18. 19. & 4. 12 ▪ & 5. 21. & 6. 11-14 . 2 Tim. 1 , 13. 14. & 3. 14 ▪ & 4. 5. 1 Pet 5. 1-4 ▪ Ro● 12. 7. 8 Mat. 28. 20. 1 Cor. 4 , 17 , & 12 4-7 ▪ & 14. 33. 36 & 16 , 1 , Eph. 4. 10-13 . Rev. 1. 20 , & 2 & 3. chap. 1 Cor , 3. 21. 22. 23. Mat , 18 , 17. See besides these , the Article 20. before . * Act. 6. 3. 5. 6. & 14. 23 , & 15 2. 〈◊〉 . 23. 2 Cor 8. 19. 1 Tim. 3. 10. and 4. 14. & 5. 22. Num. 8. 9. 10. 1 Cor. 16. 3. † 1 Thes. 5. 12. 13. 1 Tim. 5. 3. 17. 18. Heb. 13 17. 1 Cor. 9. 7. &c. Gal. 6. 6. | 1 Tim. 3. 10. & 5. 22. Rom. 16. 17. Phil. 3. 2 1 Tim. 6. 3. 5. Ezech. 44. 12. 13. Mat. 18. 17. * Psal. 122. 3. Act. 2. 47. Rom. 16. 2. Mat. 18. 17. 1 Cor. 5. 4. 2 Cor. 2. 6. 7. 8. Lev. 20. 4. 5. & 24. 14. Num 5. 2. 3. Deut. 13. 9. ‡ Act. 15. 2. 22 with 1 Cor. 3. 5. 22. & 12. 20. & 14. 33. Lev. 4. chap. 2 Chron. 26. 20. Psal. ● . 10. 11. 12 & 141. 5. and 149. 8. 9. Act 11 2. 4. 1 Tim. 5. 19. 20. 21. * Act. 20. 17. 28. Heb. 13. 17. 24 Sōg . 3. 3. Esa 62. 6. Ezec. 33. 2. Mat. 24. 45. Luk. 12. 42. 1 Thes. 5. 14. ‡ Mar. 13. 34. 37. Luk. 17. 3. Gal. 6. 1. 1 Thes. 5. 11. Iude vers . ● . 20. Heb. 10. 24 25. & 12. 15. Mat. 28. 20. Luk 12. 35. 36. 37. 38. Rom. 16. 19 20. Deut. 28. 1. &c. Zach. 2. 5. & 12. ● . 3. 4. Psal. 125. 2 ▪ and 132. 12. 13. &c. Mat. 16. 18. 2 Thes. 2. 3. 4 8. 9. 10. 11. 12. Rev. 9. & 13. & 17. & 18. ch . 1 Tim. 4. 1. 2. 3. Psal. 74. Esa. 14. 13. 14. Dan. 7. 25. & 8. 10. 11. 12. & 11. 31 ▪ 2 Pet. 2. chapt . 1 Iohn . 2. 18. 22. & 4. 3. and 2 Ioh. verse . 7. 9. Rev. 9. 3. &c & 13. 15. 16. 17 & 18. 15. 17 , 2 Thes. 2. 3. 4. 8. 9. with Rom. 12 7. 8. with Eph. 4. 11. 12. 1 Tim 3. 15. & ● . 17. Let this Article be conferred with the precedent ▪ & 1. 7. 12. 13. 14 19. 20. 21. 22. 23. 24. 28. Confer this Article with the precedent 1. 7. 12. 13. 14. 19. &c. also Revel . 9. 3. &c. & ●3 . 11. 15. 16. 17. & 14. 9. 10 11. & 17. 3 , 4 , ● . & 18. 15. 17 & 22. 18. 19. Io● . 10 , ●1 , Luk. ●2 . 25. 26. Dan 7 , 8. 25. & . 8. 10. 11. 12. 2 Thes 2. 3. 4 , 8 , 9. 1 Pet. 5. 3. with Ioh , 3. 27 , 29. with Rev. 2. 1. 1 King. 12. 27. &c. Zac , 11. 15. 16. Esa. 1. 12. & 29. 13. & 30. 22 Mar. 7. 7. 8. Gal 1. 8. &c. & 2. 4. 5. Col 2. 20. 22. 2● , 1 Tim , 4. 1. 2. 3. Eze , 8. 5. & 13 , 9. &c. Mica . 2. 11. Malach. 1. 8. 13. 14 , 1 Cor. 14. 34 , 35. Exod. 20 , 4. 5. 6. 7. Num. 15. 39. 40. Psal. 119. 22. 113 138. Deut. 1● . 30. 31. 32. Conferre this Article with the precedent : See also Rev , 18. 2. 3. 4. 5. 1 Cor. 14 33. Ier. 15 , 19 Mal , 1. 4 , 6 , 8. Hos. 4. 14. 15. Rom. 6. 16. 2 Pet. 2 , 19. Lev. 17. 1 — 9. 1 Cor. 10 , 14 , 17 , 18. 19. 20. 2 Co● . 6. 14. 15. 16. 17. Song . 1 , 6. 7. * Rev. 18. 4. Esa. 48. 20. & 52. 11. Ier. 50. 8 & 1● . 6. 45. Zach. 2. 6. 2 Cor 6. 17. ‡ Rev. 17. 16. Mat. 22. 21. 2 Chro. 14. 3. 4. 5. & 15. 8. 9. & 17. 6. 2 Kin. 23. 5. &c. Rom 13. 4. | Rev. 18. 4. Zach. 13. 2. 4. 5. 6 & 14. 21. Ier. 51. 26. Psal. 119 59. 60. 128. Prov. 5. 20. Esa. 8. 11. 12. & 35. 8. * Rev. 18. 11. Psal. 16. 3. 4. Prov. 3. 9. 10. with Exod. 20. 4. 5. Iud. 17. 3. 4. 5. Ezec. 16. 17. 18. 19. 1 Cor 10. 19. 20. 21. 22 with Heb. 13. 10 1 Tim. 5. 17. 2 Cor. 8 , 3. 4. 5. * Gen 18 , 19. Exod , 13. 8. 14. Pro. 31. 26. 27. Eph. ●6 . 4. 9 , Deut. 6. 7. Psal. 79. 3. 4. ‡ Luk. 17. 37. Phil. 1. ● . Ier. 50 4. 5. Act. 2. 41. 42. Psal 110. 3. Esa. 14. 1. & 44 5. Neh. 9. 38. 2 Cor. 9. 13. with | 1 Cor. 1 , 2 , & 12 14. 27. & 14. 2● . & 16. 1. Act. 14. 23. 27. & 15. 3. 4. & 16. 5. Rom. 12. 5. Mat. 18. 17. 18. 19. 20. Rev. 1. 20. & 2. 18. 12. 18 & 3. . 17. 14 ▪ Eph. 2. 19. Col. 2. 19 , ‡ Exod. 20 , 8. with Rev. 1. 10 ▪ Act. 20. 7. 1 Cor. 16. 2. * 1 Cor. 14. chap. Rom. 12. 6. 1 Pet. 4. 10. ●1 . 1 Cor. 12. 7. Act. 13. 15. 1 Thes. 5. 20 ‡ Heb. 5. 4. Eph , 4. 11. 12. Num 16. 10. 39. 40. Rom. 12. 7. Iohn . 1. 23. 25. 1 Cor. 1. 14. 15. 16. 17. with chap. 3. 5. 6. ‡ Act. 6. 3. 5. 6. & 14. 21. 22. 23. Tit. 1. 5. &c. Eph. 4. 11. 12. 1 Cor. 12. 7. 8. 14. 15. 28 , 1 Tim. 3. & 5. chap. Lev , 8. chap. * Col , 2. 5. 6. 7 , 2 Thes. 2 , 15 , Iude , ver . 3 , &c , Mat. 28. 20 , † Act , 2. 38. 39. with Rom. 9. 4 , & Gen , 17. 7. 12. 27. Rom , 11 , 16. 1 Cor , 1 , 16 & 7. 14 , & 10 2. Psal , 21 , 30 , Col. 2 , 11. 12 , Exod , 12 , 48 , 49 Act. 16 , 15 , 33. Mar. 10. 13-16 Gal. 3 , 28. 29. | Mat , 26. 26. 27 , 1 Cor. 11 , 28. & 10. 3. 4. 16. 17 & 12. 13 Act , 2 , 42 , with 1 , 14 , & 20. 7. 8. Gal , 3. 28. ‡ Mat. 26 , 26. 17. 1 Cor , 10 , 3. 4. 16 , & 11. 23 24-29 , * 1 Cor. 10 , 16. 17 , & 11. 23 , 24 25. &c. Mat. 26 , 26 , 27. 29. & 15. 17. Iohn . 12. 8. Act. 3 , 21 , & 7. 56. † Gen , 17. 11. Rom , 4. 11. Exo. 12. 13 , with Heb 13 , 20. | 1 Cor. 10 , 3 , 4. 5 , & 11. 26. 27. 28. 29. & 12. 13. Rom. 2. 28. 29 , Col. 2. 11 , 12. 13. Act 8. 13. 36. 37 , 38. & 15. 9. Gal. 3 , 27. Rom. 5. & 6. and 7. and 8 , chap. 1 Cor. 1. 30. 31. Rev. 2 , & 3● Chap. Act , 15 1 , 2 , 1 Cor. 1. 10. Phil. 2. 1-6 . & 3 , 15. 16 , Heb. 10 , 25 , Iude. ver , 19 , Lev. 4 , 13 , &c , 2 Chron , 15. 9 , 17 , & 30. 18 19 , 2 Cor 13 , 1 , 2 , 1 These . 5. 14 ▪ 2 Thes 3. 6. 14 ▪ Mat. 18. 17. 1 Cor. 5 , 4 , 5 , * 1 Cor. 14. 23. 24 , 25. Psal. 18. 49. Rom. 15. ● 10. 1 Tim. 2. 4. 2 Tim. 2. 25. ‡ 2 Cor. 6. 14. 15. 16. Ezr. 4 , 3. Exod 12 , 43. Lev. 22. 25 , Deut , 7 , chap. Exod. 34 , 12 , Esa. 44. 5. Psal. 47. 9 , & ●10 , 3. Act. 1● , 18. 19. † Exod. 20 , 5 , 6. 1 Cor , 7 , 14 , Gen , 17. 7. 12. ●7 , Exod , 12 , 48. 49. Act , 16 15. 33. Eph , 4 , 4. 5. See also Artic. 35 , before . | Act. 9. 26. 27. & 18. 27. Rom. 16 1. 2. 2 Cor , 8. 23. Col. 4. 10. Psal , 122. 3 , Sōg 8 8 , 9. 1 Cor. 4. 17 and 14 , 33. 36 & 16. 1. Col. 4. 16. Mat. 28. 20 ● Tim 13. 15. & 6. 13 , 14. Rev 22 , 18 , 19. Col. 2. 6. 19 & 4 , 16 Act. 15. cap. See besides the Artic. 1. 22. 33. * Rom. 13 , 1 , 2 ▪ 1 Pet , 2. 13 , 14 , 2 Chron , 19 , 4 , &c. & 29 , & 34 , chap , Iudg , 17 , 5 , 6. Mat , 22 21. Tit. 3 , 1 , † 2 King , 23 , 5 , &c , Deut , 12. 2 , 3 , with , 17. 14. 18. 19 , 20. 2 Kin 10. 26. 27. 28. 2 Chron. 17. 6. Psal , 101 , Pro. 16. 12. & 25. 2. 3. 4 , 5 , Act. 19. 27. Rev , 17 ▪ 16 & 18. 11. 12 &c. ‡ Esa. 49. 23. & 60. 3. 10. 11. 12 , Rev. 21 , 24. Deut. 17. 14. 18 19. 20. Psal. 2. 10. 11. 12 , and 72. 1 , &c , & 10● ▪ Ios. 1. 7. 8. 2. Chr. 17. 4 , — 9 , & 19 4 , &c. & 29 , & 30 , chap. Dan 6. 25 , 26 , Esr , 7. 26 Pro. 16 , 10 , 12. 13 , & 20. 28. & 29 , 14. Esa. 10 , 1 2 , 1 Tim. 2. 2 , 1 Pet. 2 , 13 , 14. Rom , 13. 3. 4. * Act , 9 , 31 , Pro 16 , 15. Esra . 5. & 6. ch , 1 Tim , 2 , 2. Dan , 6 , 25 , 26 , Rev , 21 , 24 , ‡ Act , 4. 18 , 19 & 5. 28 , 29 , Dan , 6 , 7. 8. 9 , 10 , Luk. 21 , 12 , 13 , Mat. 28. 20 , 1 Tim , 5 , 21 , & 6. 13. 14. † Psa , 20 , 9 , & 72 , 1 , 1 Tim. 2. 4. 2 Chro , 15. 1 , 2 , Hag. 1. 1 , 4. 14. & 2 , 5. Psal , 126 , 1 , &c , Esa , 49. 23 & 60 , 16. Ps 21 & 72 , Rō . 13. 3 , 1 Tim , 2. 2. 3. 4 , Act , 9. 31. * Act , 2 , 40-42 & 4 , 19 , & 5 , 28 , 29. 41 , & 16. 20 , &c , & 17. 6 , 7. & 20 , 23 , 24 , 1 Thes , 3. 3. Phil. 1. 27 28 , 29 , Dan , 3 , ●6-18 , & 6. 7. 10 , 22 , 23. 24. Luk , 14. 26 , 27. & 21 12-14 . 2 Tim , 2 , 12. & 3. 12 Heb. 10 , 32 &c , 1 Pet. 4 , chap , Rev. 2 , 10. 25. 26. & 6. 9 , & 12. 11 , 17. ‡ Mat. 28. 18 , 19. 20 , 1 Tim , 6 , 13 , 14 ▪ 15. 16 Rom , 12 , 1 , 2 , 3 , 4. 5 , 6. 7. 8 , 1 Cor. 14 , 37 2 Tim , 4 , 7 , 8 , Rev , 2 , 10 , and 14 , 12. 13. & 22 , 16 , 17. 18. 19 , 20. R●m , 13 , 1. 5. 6 , 7 Mat , 22 , 21. ● Chron , 27 , chap. Ezra , 7. 26 , Neh 9. 36. 37. Tit. 3 1 , 1 Pet. 2 , 13 , &c Ex. 18. 12 & 20 , 12. &c. Lev 19. 32. Iob. 29 , 7. &c , with 30 , 1 &c , Eph , 5. 21-33 , & 6. 1-9 . 1 Pet. 5 , 5 , Tit. 2. chap , Mat , 22 , 21. Act 24. 14. 15. 16. Ioh. 5. 28. 29. Dan. 12. 2. 2 Cor 4. 17. 1 Tim. 6. 3 4. 5. & 2. Tim 1. 13. and 3. 14 15. 16. 17. Mat. 6. 9-13 . Luk. 11. 2. 3. 4. with Mat. 14 30. & 26. 39. 42. Act. 1. 24. 25. and 4. 24. 30. & 6. 4. Rom 8. 26. 27. & 15 30. 31. 32. 1 Pet 2. 5. Iam. 1. 5. 6. and 5. 13. 1 Tim. 2. 1. 2. 3. Eph. 6. 18. ●● 1 Thess. 5. 17. 18. Phil. 4. 6. Rev. 3. 4. 
A15866	----	A guide unto Sion. Or certaine positions, concerning a true visible church Wherein the nature of a true church is so plainely described, as all men may easily decerne the same from false assemblies. Written by a learned and judicious divine. Learned and Judicious Divine. 1638 Approx. 49 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 17 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-12 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A15866 STC 26125 ESTC S102219 99838016 99838016 2373 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A15866) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 2373) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1475-1640 ; 1056:19) A guide unto Sion. Or certaine positions, concerning a true visible church Wherein the nature of a true church is so plainely described, as all men may easily decerne the same from false assemblies. Written by a learned and judicious divine. Learned and Judicious Divine. Ainsworth, Henry, 1571-1622?, attributed name. aut 32 p. [By Richt Right Press], Printed in Amstelredam : in the yeare 1638. Sometimes attributed to H. Ainsworth--STC. Press's name from STC. Reproduction of the original in the British Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. 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Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Brownists -- Early works to 1800. 2005-02 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2005-03 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-04 Mona Logarbo Sampled and proofread 2005-04 Mona Logarbo Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A GUIDE UNTO SION . OR Certaine Positions , concerning a true visible Church . Wherein The nature of a true Church is so plainely described , as all men may easily decerne the same from false assemblies . Written by a learned and judicious divine . Jer. 50. 5. They shall aske the way to Sion , with their faces thitherward , saying : come and let us joyne our selves to the Lord , in a perpetuall Covenant , that cannot be forgotten . Printed at Amstelredam , in the yeare 1638. A GUIDE UNTO SION . OR Certaine Positions , concerning a true visible Church . THis our English word Church , through custome of speech is commonly used for the Temple or place where people come together for the worship of God ; but they that are any thing exercised in religion , know , that it also signifieth the People ▪ which gather together for divine service , and this is the first and proper meaning of the word Church , as it is used to expresse the original Scripture termes , Kahal & Ecclesia . 2. This name Church , we Englishmen ( which came of the Saxons ) have received from the Saxon , German , and Dutch names Cyric , Kirch , Kerck ; whereby those nations now , do usually cal their Temples or meeting-places : but the people which come togither in them , they cal the Gemeine , and the Gemeinte , that is to say , the Comunialtie ; and we in our first English Bibles caled it , the Congreation . 3 As all religion is learned out of holy scriptures , so the name and doctrine of the church , is from thence to be deduced ; and there the Church is called in Hebrew a Kahal or b Kehillah , which signifieth a Convocation or Assemblie of people , & c Ghnedah , that is to say a Congregation : in Greek it is named d Ecclesia , that is in like maner , a Convocation , or people called forth to an assembly , and sometime e Synagogue , that is a Congregation : which word is also vsed for the f place wherein the people assembled . 4. The Hebrue word Kahal is diversly used ; sometimes more generally for a great or universal multitude , as g of nations and h of peoples ; sometimes more particularly for an assembly of one nation , as of i the Israelites ; sometimes for a part of them , as k the Elders and Governours ; of some l of the tribes of Israel a part ; or some m of all the tribes , even n men women and children : o and indifferently for any assembly , and this not onely of Gods people , but of p heathens also and infidels . 5. Likewise the Greek word Ecclesia is of as large extent and signification ; used sometime for q the Church generally ; sometime for a r particular church or congregation in a citie ; sometimes more particularly in s a house or familie ; sometimes ( in the Greek version of the old testament ) for an assemblie t of Governours , or company u of Prophets , or congreation x of the people : and finally for y any assembly lawful or unlawful , of good men or of z evil . 6. These words thus general , are in more special sort both by the scriptures , & by use of speach among all religious people , restreyned and appelied to such Assemblies and Congregations as are called and gathered for divine exercises : and so our English name of Church is attributed peculiarly to spiritual or religious assemblies , called ecclesiastical , and not to any other assemblies civil or political . 7. Of religious or ecclesiastical assemblies generally considered , there any many sorts in the world ; all disallowed of God , save one sort onely which he acknowledgeth to be his , & hath separated to him self from all the rest . 8. The many false sorts , may be reduced unto fowr ; 1. The assemblies of Pagans or heathen people , which professe some God , Gods , or Goddesses , whom they do worship , ignorantly , having a changed the truth of God into a lie , and so serving creatures , not ( in deed ) the creator , which is blessed for ever , Amen . 2 The assemblies of Iewes , who professe the true God ( after a sort ) and allow the writings of Moses and the Prophets , but abhorre Christ Iesus our Saviour , and reject the new Testament : 3 The assemblies of Mahometists , as Persians , Turks , Moores , &c. Which professe also after their manner , that b one true God of whom Moses and the Prophets wrote , and acknowledge c Christ to be a Prophet sent of God , yea and the breath or Spirit of God , yet beleeve they not that he is d God , or the e sonne of God , or Saviour of the world , but follow the lies and fabels of their false Prophet Mahomet . 4. Finally the church or assemblies of false Christians , which professe God and his sonne Christ , into whose name they are baptised ; but by their works doe deny him , and by their errours & heresies , doe overthrow the truth of religion . 9. The first three sorts , Pagans , Jewes , and Mahometists , because of their so open and manifest denyall of Christ and salvation by him ; are generally of Christians reputed as no Churches ; the latter are reputed no true but false Churches , and so also do they esteem of true Christians , and one of another . Hereupon is continual controversie between true and false Christians , which is the true Church , and how it may be knowen . 10. To help the weak and doubtfull in this case , I will so truly and plainly as by the grace of God J can , describe the true Church , which in holy Scriptures is called the Congreation and Church f of God , consisting of godly & holy people named g Saints ; opposed to the wicked or h malignant churches , the i Synagogues of Satan . 11. The true Church is a People k called of God by l the Gospel , m from the world , unto the n Communion or followship of his Son Iesus Christ , in whom they are o coupled and built togither , to be the habitation of God by the spirit . 12. The Church is said to be a people , p nation or generation , because it consisteth of many persons , or of a multitude little or great : for though a particular Christian is called , & of the church ; yet no one man is a church or congregation . 13. It is a people called ; q because every concourse or assemblie is not a true Church : none of themselves can come unto this estate , unlesse they be r called or drawen thereunto : and they are sayd to be called of God ; because he s onely calleth and draweth men unto Christ with a t holy calling ; and addeth them u to his Church ; x no humane power or authority is able to doe it . 14. The Gospel z noted to be the meanes of our calling , he maketh knowen unto his people outwardly by his a word b spoken and c written , and inwardly by d his holy spirit : and thus the Church are all e the taught of God. 15. The estate out of which the Church is called , is sayd to be out of or from the f world ; whereby is meant , first Satan the g Prince of this world , from whose power they are h turned unto God ; Secondly , the wicwicked people of the world , called the i Children of the Devil , from whose communion and followship k in their religion , and all other wicked actions , we must be separated ; thirdly the corruption of nature in our selves , the lust of the flesh , the lust of the eyes , and pride of life , l all which are of the world , and which we must m hate and n crucifie , and so turn and become o like litle children , even born agayn , that we may see the kingdome of God. 16. The estate whereunto God calleth his church in this life , p is generally q to the Communion ( or followship ) of his Son Iesus Christ , as being their onely mediator and Saviour , the Prophet Priest and King of the Church ; which they beleeving aud professing , are also made partakers ( in a proportion & in their mesure ) of these three offices with him . 17. Iesus Christ is the r Prophet raised up of God unto his people , to teach them all that God commanded him : which also he did , both by s himselfe , and by the Ministery of his servants t sent of him , And as u all the treasures of wisedome & knowledge are hid in him , so him the Church must x heare ; for all y heavenly wisedome and knowledge is to be learned of him ; and every person which shall not hear this Prophet , z shall be destroyed out of the people . 18. This Propheticall office of Christ , he bath communicated with the church , by giving a to the same his word for their instruction and comfort , and b grafting the same within them , his spirit also as an c Anoynting to reach them all things ; giving d gifts also , or ministers , to open and apply the same unto their sowles , likewise power and freedome by e witnes f profession and g practise , to h hold forth that word of life as lights in the world : therby to i preach unto others the faith of Christ , to k edify and build up one an other dayly therein ; to l provoke unto love and to good works ; to m a admonish and n reprehend for evil and iniquity ; to o forgive and p comfort one another in the bowels of Christ ; whose word therefore all ought to labour that it may q dwel plenteously in them ; that if any man speak , it may be r as the words of God. 19. Iesus the Son of God , is also the s great high priest or Sacrificer of the Church ; by whose obedience , and sacrifice or oblation of t his owne body and blood , the church is clensed u from all syn , and x reconciled to God ; by whose intercession the church , with the holy actions and oblations of the same , are y accepted of God , and made heires of blessing . 20. And this his Priestly office , is so imparted to his church , as they have not onely interest in his z death and suffrings wherby they are reconciled to God , but also are themselves made a a holy priesthood , to offer up spiriutal sacrifices acceptable to God by him : giving up b their own bodies a living sacrifice ; c mortifying their members which are on earth , and d crucifying the flesh with th' affections and lusts ; offring up e contrite & brokē harts , with f sacrifices of confession to his name ; and praying not onely every man for himselfe , but g one for another , h doing and distributing to the necessities of the Saincts ; i suffring affliction for the Gospel ; and finally , if they be called thereunto , powring out their sowles unto k death for the truthes sake . 21. The Lord Iesus Christ , is also the l governour and m king over Sion Gods holy mount , and sitteth at his Fathers right hand and n reigneth til all his enemies be made his foot stool , being o a King judge , and law-giver to his people , p commanding & ruling them by his word and spirit , q judging them in justice and equity , preserving and defending them by his almighty power , r from all their enemies . 22. And this his kingly office he so communicateth with his church , as they are by him preserved and defended from all adversarie power ; freed from the dominion a of syn , and tyranny of b Satan ; from subjection to c the world , and servitude d unto men : and restored to the joyfull libertie of the children of God , e the world and all things in it made theirs : that housoever they have still to combate f with the Divil , to g wrastle against principalities and powers ; to suffer h hatred and affliction of the world ; and to warre with the fleshly lusts i which fight against the sowl : yet neyther k death ; nor life , nor Angels , nor principalities , nor powers , nor things present , nor things to come , nor height nor deepth , nor any other creature , shall be able to separate them from the love of God which is in Christ Iesus our Lord ; who hath l made them Kings & priests unto God even his Father , and they shall m reigne on the earth ; till having served here their tyme , they come to n reign with him in glory , in the heavens for ever . 23. Vnto the participation of these promises and heavenly graces , are o all people provoked by the Gospell preached ; and such as obey the calling of God , and come unto Christ , are united to him their head & mediator , from whom proceedeth the Iustification & sanctfication of the church . 24. Iustification is the partaking of Christs p justice or righteousnes , in his fulfilling & obeying q the law of God , and discharging r all our debts and trespasses by his death ; so freeing us s from the curse , and setting us in full favour t with God and under his u blessing : which righteousnes of Christs , is fully made ours , & imputed to us x by faith for our justification . 25. Sanctfication is the partaking of Christs holynes , by being y grafted with him to the similitude of his death and resurrection ; whereby the corruption of nature or z old man in us , becommeth crucified & a buried with him , and the b new man or image of God is put on and renewed dayly in a holy conversation . 26. Hitherto of the Churches union and communion with Christ her head : now followeth the union of the churches members one with another : which is their c couplin● togither as one body by the communion 〈◊〉 one & the same d spirit , faith , & love . 27. The union of the members one wit● another is to be considered generally o● totally ; and particularly . Generally as the church is called universall or catholik , comprehending the a whol family of God i● heaven and in earth , and the b fraternity o● brotherhood of all Christians which are is the world ; in whom there is but c one faith , in d one and the same God by that one Lord Iesus Christ , through one Spirit . Thu● have they all one Father which is God , one mother , e Ierusalem which is above ; and by the mediation of Christ are all made f one , baptized by one spirit into g one body , and al● made to drink into one spirit . 28. More particularly , they that are called of God , and members of the Church universal , are united and gathered into many g churches or congregation , in h several cities & countries i every of which curche being joyned togither in the profession & practise of the Gospell of Christ , k have his 〈◊〉 power and l presence with them , and is convene or come m togither in one , for the worship of God , & performance of publick duties . 29. Whatsoever promise or blessing of God , is bestowed on the church on earth generally considered : the same may be apprehended and injoyed by every particular Church , ( though not in like measure by all : ) as the q promises generall , and examples particular of the Church r in Corinth , and others mentioned in the Scripture , do confirme . 30. The Testament of Christ sheweth us no Provinciall Nationall , Emperial , or other like Church , having several meetings or assemblies , and speciall Pastors over the same : neyther , synce th' Apostles , Prophets and Evangelists were takē from this world , are there any other lawfull Bishops or church-governours , then Bishops or Overseers s of the particular churches ; neyther ever was ther other lawfull Head , Lord , or Lords spiritual , of the church , then t Iesus Christ alone . 31. Vnto the Church are to be admitted , all unto whom the covenant and promise of God doth apperteyn ; and they are so ma●y a as the Lord our God shall call ; and all those are called ( in the judgements of man , ) which having b heard the word of God , do professe c repentance from dead works and faith in God , by Iesus Christ the alone Saviour of the world , and promise d obedience to the word , through the holy Gost the sanctifier of the elect . Such of e all sorts and estates of people in the world , are with their f leed to be received into , and nourished in the church ; their ignorance being holpen by g instruction , their weaknes h born by lenity , their faults corrected i with love and meeknes ; and their feeble consciences k comforted with the promise of God. 32. Out of the Church are l all such to b● kept , as are profane , wordly and wicked , u●till they be called of God unto repentance and faith in his promise ; for every Churc● rightlie constituted , must consist of faithful● and holy persons . Our reasons are these . 1. The Scriptures m every where so teac● 2. All wicked men are forbidden expres●● by tthe word of God , n from medling wit● his covenant , or ordinances , 3. they have no● Christ for their head o and therefore cannot be of his bodie . 4 , The godly and wicked are contraries , guided and let by different causes : now two contraries are not capable of one and the same forme . 5. Only faithfull men worship God aright , please him , are accepted of him , and have right to the covenant of grace and seales thereof . The ordinarie officers , perpetuallie be longing to all true Churches . Are Pastors Teachers Elders Deacons and Helpers The election and ordination of them must be made by the free chose of the congregation f of which they are members , and wherein they are to administer . And this is cleare . 1. Because the Apostles g who only taught Christs commandements ▪ so established the primitive churches . 2. The people amongst whome they have been conversant can best judge of their fitnes both in ●espect of their persons and families . 3. It ●●rtheretn much the diligence and faithfulness of the minister , that they whose minister ●s have freely chosen him , as unto whome under Christ they commit the most pretious treasure of their soule : as also it bindes the people to greater love and conscience of obedience of him and his ministry whome themselves have made choice of . 4. The Church beeing a most free corporation , spirituall under Christ the Lord , is in all reason and equity to chuse her ministers and servants under him , unto whome also , she is . to giue wages for their service and labour . 34. The Pastor must be apt to teach , a no young scholer , able to divide the word a right ; b he must be a man that loveth goodnes ; c he must be wise righteous , holy , temperate ; he must be of life unreproveable , as God steward ; d he must be generally wel reported of and one that ruleth his owne house hould under obedience with all honestie , he must be modest e humble , meeke , gentle , & loving : he must be a man of great patience , compassion , labour , and diligence : feed the sheep of Christ in green and wholesome pastures of the word : pray for them , seale up to them the promises of God by the Sacraments : He must alwayes be carefull and watchfull over the Flock of Christ , f defend it from ravenous beasts , g and the wolfe , and take the little Foxes : discerne mens deseases , and apply the word according to every disease , and every time and occurrant : And these things he must doe with all willingnes and chearfulnes , not holding his office in respect of persons , but doing his duty to every soule , as he will answer before the chiefe Shepheard , &c. 35. The Doctor * or Teacher must be a man apt to teach , mighty in the Scriptures , able to convince the gainsayers : He must be of life unreproveable , one that can governe his owne househould , he must be of manners sober , temperate , modest , gentle , and loving : Hee must take diligent heed to keepe the Church from errours : preserve knowledge , build upon the rock ( which is Iesus Christ ) gould , silver , and pretious stones , that his worke may endure the triall of the fire , and by the light of the same fire , reveale the timber , hay , and stubble of false Teachers : And further , hee must deliver his doctrine pure , sound , & plaine , not with curiosity or affectation , but so that it may edifie the most simple , approving it to every mans conscience , that the Church may increase with the increasing of God , and grow up unto him which is the head Christ Iesus . 36. That this is an Office different from that of the Pastor , is manifest by these reasons . 1. The Apostle doth so distinguish them one from another . Rom. 12 , 7 , 8. Ephes. 4 , 11. 2. Their gifts appeare to be divers , 1 Cor. 12 , 8. 3. The Pastor is commaunded to take one course in Teaching , the Doctor another , Rom. 12 , 7 , 8. 4. This distinguishing of them makes more for the building of the Church , then to unite and make them one . 37. The third Officers , † are Governours , or Ruling Elders ; These men must be of life likewise unreproveable , sober , gentle , loving , temperate : Governing their owne Families orderly : they must bee men of wisedome , knowledge , and sound judgement , able to discerne betweene cause and cruse , betweene plea and plea , and accordingly to prevent and redresse evils . Their especiall care must be to see the Ordinances of God truly taught and practised , as well by the officers in doing their duties uprightly , as to see the people obey willingly & readily : It is their dutie to see the congregation holily and quietly ordered , and no way disturbed by the contentious and disobedient , froward and obstinate : Not taking away the liberty of the least , but uphoulding the right of all , wisely judging of times and circumstances . They must be readie assistants to the Pastor and Teacher , helping to beare their burden , but not intruding into their office . 38. Jt is necessarie that these Officers bee perpetuallie resident upon their charge . For 1. a Minister is a Shepheard , and his charge a Flock ; now a shepheard hath a flock to feed it continually . 2. Wheresoever God placeth a man , there is daylie need of his labour and care . 3. The people are in daunger of harme if they be not watched over day and night . 4. The Church requireth an Officers residencie with her , as a dutie of him . 5. If they doe otherwise , they cannot give their people a good example , neither will there belove & familiarity between them . 39. Deacons * must be men of honest report , indued with the Holy Ghost , they must be grave , temperate , not given to excesse , nor to filthy lucre : Faithfully ought they to gather and collect by the Ordinance of the Church , the goods and benevolence of the faithfull , and by the same direction diligently and trustily to distribute them according to the necessitie of the Saints . Further , they must inquire and consider of the portion and the wantes both of the Officers and other poore , and accordingly relate to the Church that provision may be made . 40. That the Deacons Office is not to meddle with the Word and Sacraments , but onely to collect the benevolence of the faithfull , and faithfully to distribute the same : is cleare by these reasons . 1. It is an Apostolicall institution , that these should attend upon the provision for the poore , Act. 6 , 4. 2. The Scripture maketh it an ordinarie and distinct Office from others in the Church , and not to be mingled with any other , Rom. 12 , 8. 3. No man can in any tollerable measure discharge the Office of a Minister and a Deacon also , Act. 6 , 2. 4. The Ministeries of the Word are perfect without it . 41. This Office was instituted , 1. That the faithfull might bee the more free from feare , and follow their owne callings diligently . 2. That the Church might be the more enriched with Heavenly and Spirituall blessings , for the receives grace and gifts , for the discharge of each calling . 3. To stirre men up to helpe the poore the more willingly , considering that the Lord hath appointed a speciall office for that purpose . 4. That there should bee no complaints , but that all the poore might be comforted against their povertie & wants . Lastlie , to shew that as God hath created soule and body , so hee takes care for both . 42. The Widowes a or Deaconesses must be Women of 60 , yeares of age at the least . For avoyding of inconveniences : they must be well reported of for good workes , such as have nourished their Children , such as have beene harberous to strangers , diligent and serviceable to the Saints , compassionate and helpefull to them in adversitie , given to every good worke , continuing in supplications and prayer day and night : They must minister to the sicke , lame , weary and defeated such helpefull comforts as they need , by watching , tending and helping them . Further , they must shew good example to the young women , in sober , modest , and godly conversation , avoyding idlenes , vaine talke , and light behaviour . 43. These are the necessarie and onely ordinarie functions , * and offices , which our Saviour hath ordained in his Church , unto the due administration whereof , he hath promised his blessing to the end of the world . And these are perpetuall and to continue for ever , and beside these it is unlawfull for men ( following the devises of their owne braine ) to institute or ordaine any in the Churches of God. 44. These offices though they be divers & severall , yet are they not severed , least there should be a division in the body : a but they are as members of the body , having the same care one of another , joyntly dooing their severall duties to the service of the saints : neither can any of these offices bee wanting without grevious lamenes and apparent deformitie of the body , yea violent iniury to the head Christ Iesus . 45. As every Christian Congregation hath power and commandement to elect & ordaine their owne Ministers according to the rule in Gods word prescribed : So right and power to practice all other ordinances of the Lord , & namely to b cut of any memfrom the body : provided , that holy order of proceeding bee keept , which Christ in his will and Testament hath left us . 46. The rule of Christ for excommunication is thus : If the fault be private , holy and loving admonition and reproof is to be vsed , with an inward desire and earnest care to winne their brother : But if hee will not heare , yet to take two or three other brethrē with him , whome he knoweth most meet for that purpose , that by the mouth of two or three witnesses , every word may be confirmed : And if he refuse to heare them , then to declare the matter to the church , which ought severally and sharpely to reprehend , gravely to admonish , and lovingly to perswade the partie offending : shewing him the heynousnes of his offence , and the danger of his obstinacie , and the fearfull judgments of the Lord. Lev. 19. 17. 18. Mat. 18. 15. Devt . 19. 15. Mat. 18. 16. 47. All this notwithstanding the Church is not to hold him as an enemie , but to admonish him and pray for him as a Brother ; prooving if at any time the Lord will give him repentance . For this power is not given them to the distruction of any , but to the edification of all . 2. Thes. 3. 15. 2. Cor. 10. 8. & 13. 10. 48. If this preveale not to draw him to repentance , then are they in the Name and power of the Lord IESVS with the whole Congregation , reverently in prayer to proceed to excommunication , that is unto the casting him out of their congregation and fellowship , covenant and protection of the Lord , for his disobedience & obstinacie , and committing him to Sathan , for the destruction of the flesh , that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Iesus , if such be his good wil and pleasure , Mat. 18. 17. 1 Cor. 5. 11. 49. If the offence be publike , the partie is publiquely to be reproved , and admonished : if he then repent not , to proceed to excommunication , as aforesaid . 1. Tim. 5 , 20. Gal. 2. 14. Ios. 7. 19. 2 Cor. 7. 9. 50. Further they are to warn the whole congregarion and all other beleevers to hold him as a Heathen and Publican , and to withdraw themselves from him , from all spirituall communion , and civil familiaritie , so farre as may be without the violation of any naturall or civil bond . 51. That obstinate sinners after due conviction and patience , must be censured appeareth 1. By the commandement of Christ a & practice of the Apostolicall b churches . 2. That the worship & service of God may c be kept & preserved from pollution , contempt and prophanation . 3. That the sinner may se his fault , be humbled d for it , and so saved in the day of the Lord. 4. That the honour and good name of the church may be preserved , the which would be lost e if vile persons were suffered therein . 5. To prevent the infection f of others . 6. That by the zeale , e and holynes of the church , they without g may be gained to the Gospell . 7. To glorifie Gods great name which is much impeached h by the unholy walking of those which professe his truth . 8. That others may feare , i for if this course be omitted , it may be a meanes to embolden many to doe the like . 52. The repentance of the partie must be proportionable to the offence , viz. If the offence be publique , publique : If private , private : Humbled , submissive , sorrowfull , unfained , giving glorie to the Lord. Lev. 19 , 17 , 18. Pro. 10. 12. Rom. 12. 19 , and 13 , 10 , and 14. 1. 53. There must great care bee had of admonitions , that they be not captious or curious , finding fault where none is ; neither yet in bitternes or reproach : For that were to destroy and not to save our brother : But they must be carefully done , with prayer going before , they must bee seasoned with truth , gravitie , love and peace . Mat. 18 , 15. and 26 , 8. Gal. 6 , 1 , 2. 2 Tim , 2 , 24. Mark. 9 , 50. Ephes , 4 , 29 , Iam. 5 , 15 , 19 , 20. 54. More over , the Scripture shewes us , that discreet , faithfull and men able to speake unto edification exhortation and comfort , ( though not yet in office of ministery ) may open & apply the Scriptures in the church , for . 1. In the Iewish Church a men out of office had liberty either in the Temple or Synagogue , publiquely to use their gifts . 2. In the time of the Apostles b and primitiue churches men so preached , and the Lord himselfe approved it , and that without any exception or prohibition to the contrarie 3. Christ commanded c this thing : and so did his Apostles afterward . 4. d The prohibiting of woemen e ( not extraordinarie inspired ) to speak in the Church : clearely imports a liberty therein giuen unto men their husbands and others . 5. Otherwise it would follow , either that the people should be untaught f Or that now ( after the generall apostasy of Anti-christ ) g there might be lawfull Pastors and ministers had , before there were a church to chuse them , or a flock for thē to watch over ; or that unlawfull ministeries h might be reteynd & executed , for bringing men to the knowledge & obedience of the Gospell : all which are against the word of God. Lastly much good comes by this meanes , as . 1. the glory of God , in the manifestation i of his manifould graces 2. That the gifts in men be not quenched . 3. For the fitting and trying of men for the ministery . 4. k For the preserving pure of the Doctrine of the Church ; l which is more in danger , if some one or two alone only be heard and speake . 5. For debating and satisfying of doubts if any arise . 6. For the edifying of the Church and conversion of others . 55. As Christ ( our Heavenlie Prophet ) hath set forth unto us in the New Testament the manner and forme of the gathering and Constitution of the visible Church : So hee requires everie faithfull Christian , to make himselfe a member of some particular Congregation , and there to present their bodies and soules , and to bring the gifts which God hath given them . Our reasons are these : 1. Otherwise they are not to be admitted unto the Holy Sacraments , a the seales of Gods Covenant : For these ought not to be administred unto any , except they be added unto some visible Church : unto which the publick ordinances and ministery doth appertaine . 2. Because of the presence of God b & Christ : If we will come to God , we must come to that place where his presence is in a speciall manner , and where he is to be found , of all such as seeke him with their whole heart . 3. c How else have we respect to all the Commaundements . 4. That the Saints may mutually edifie each other , d and this followes upon their joyning together in the fellowship of the Gospell . 5. To consider e , or observe our Brethren as wee ought , watch over them , and seeke to reduce them unto a streight walking when they goe astray . 6. Because of Gods Covenant f and promise : For those which are in the Church , are directly ( as it were ) joyned to his blessings and graces , the which are powred forth there abundantly . 56. Such as joyne themselves unto true visible Churches ought first to goe unto the a Elders , that by them their cause may be propounded to the whole Congreg : afterward they are to come into the publick assemblie , and there make confession b of their faith openly , and promise to walke in the obedience of Christ : and thus beeing found worthy , by the consent of the whole Church they are joyfully to be received into the holy communion of Saints . 57. As every established Church , hath power and liberty to chuse their owne spirituall and Ecclesiasticall Officers : So , be it observed , that these Officers are tyed unto that only Congregation * of which they are members , and by which they were elected into office , and ought not to beare any Ecclesiasticall Office in another , neither can they administer the holy things of God , as Officers and by vertue of a ministeriall calling any where , but in their owne Congregation ; No. More then a Major or Bayliefe can execute civill justice out of the limitts and bounds of their owne priviledged Corporation . 58. It is sure , that Christ Jesus hath not subjected any Church or congregation , of his , to any other superior Ecclesiasticall jurisdiction , then unto that which is within it selfe : a so that if a whole Church or congregation shall erre in any matter of faith or religion , noe other Church , or Church-officers , have ( by any warrant from the word of God ) power to censure , punish or controile the same , but are only to advise them : and so to leave their soules to the immediate judgement of Christ. 58. It is the dutie of every Christian congregation to be carefull , that no infant be admitted unto Baptisme a whose parenn ( one at least ) are not members of some perticular Church . For. 1. If they doe b , by this meanes Gods name is taken in vaine 2. c The holy Sacrament prophaned , d 3. The Church of God de filed : d. 4. The minister a covenant breaker . e 5. There is no precept nor example in the Scripture for it . 6. Such a practice hindereth many parents from embraceing the way and order of the Gospel , and causeth them to live and die libertines . 7. It induceth ignorant people to conceive such an absolute necessity of Baptisme , as that men cannot be saved without it . 58. All Christians are bound to practice Gods ordinances for his visible Church under the Gospell although the Magistrate , * allow not thereof , yea forbid them upon pean of death : For as the opprobation of men and Angels ; makes not the wayes of God , and workes of religion never a whitt the more lawfull , but onely , the more free from bodily danger : so neither can their disallowance make unlawfull such duties of religion as the word of God , approveth , not can they give pispensation to any person , to for beare the practice thereof . There is more of this subject shortly to be Publyshed . FINIS . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A15866-e110 a Deut. 5. 22 b Deut. 33 4 c Exod . 16. 1. Psal. 111. 1. d Math. 16 18. Act. 7 38. e ●am . 2. 2. and in the Greek of the old Test. often Deut. 5. 22. Exod. 16. 3. &c. f Luk. 7. 5 Act. 18. 7. g Gen. 35. 11. ●er 50. ● h Gen. 48 4 Ezek. 〈…〉 . 24 i Exod . 12. 6. k 1. Chrm. 13. 1. 2 4. 5 and 29. 1. 6. 2. Chron. 1. 2. 3. l 2. Chron. 20. 4. 5. m 2. Chron. 30. 10. 13. 25 n Ezra . 10 I. o Gen. 49. 6. p Ezek . 27. 27 and 32. 22. & 38. 4. 7. &c. q Ephe. 5. 23. &c Heb 12. 23. r 1. Cor. 1. 2 s Rom. 16. 5. 1. Cor. 16. 19. Colos . 4 15. t 2 Chron. 1. 3. &c. u 1. Sam. 19. 20. x Psal. 107. 32. y Ezek. 32. 3 Act. 19. 32 39. 41. z Psal. 26. 5. a Rom. 1. 25. b Alkoran ; c Azoar 4. Azor 2. & 4. & 11. d Azoar 12. &c. e Azo . 19. ●0 . f Nehem. 13. 1. 1 Tim. 3. 5. 14. g 1. Cor 1. 2. Psal. 89 5. & 149. 1 h Psal. 26 5 i Rev 2 9 k 1 Pet. 2. 9 l 2 Thes. 2 14. m Iohn 17. 6. 9. 14 & 15. 19 n I Cor. 1. ● o Ephe. 2. 21. 22. p 1 Pet. 2. 9 q Ephe. 4. 1 Heb. 9. 15. r Rom 9. 11 12. 24. Song . 1. 3. s Ioh 6. 44 t 2. Tim. 1. 9. u Act. 2. 47. x 2 Chron 30. 6. 10. 12 Rom. 8. 30. z 2 Thes. 2 2● . a Cor. 5. 19 b Act. 5. 20. c 〈◊〉 20. 31. d Nehem . 9. 20. 1 Cor 2. 10 12 e Ioh. 6 45. f ●●h . 15. 19 & 17. 69 g Ioh. 12. 31. h Act. 26. 18. i 10. k Exo. 34 15. Prov. 15. 8 Psal. 16. 4 Eph. 5. 11. 2. Cor. 6. 17. l Ioh. 2. 16 m Rom. 7. 15. Jude . 23. n Gal. 6. 14. o Mat. 18. 3 p Ioh. 3. 3. q 1. Cor 1 9 r Deut. 1 15. 18. Act. 3. 22. 26. s Mat. 2. 5. &c t Ioh. 13. 20. u Col. 2. 3. x Mat. 17. 5 y Joh. 3. 13 & 6. 68. Rev. 5. 1. 5 z Act. 3. 23. a Psa. 147 19. 20. Jsa . 59. 21 Rom. 15. 4 b Iam. 1. 21. c 1 Joh. 2. 20. 27. d Ephe. 4. 8. 11. 1. Cor. 12. 28. e Jsa . 43. 10. f 2 Cor 4. 13 g Mat. 28 h Phil. 2. 16. i Act. 8. 4. k 1. Thes. 5. 11. l Heb. 10. 24. m Rom 15. 14. n Levit. 19. 17. o Lnk. 17. 3. p 1. Thes. 4. 18. q Col. 3. 16. r 1. Pet. 4. 11. s Heb. 4. 14. 20. Rom. 5. 19. t Heb. 10. 5. 10. u 1 Ioh 1. 7 x Rom. 5. 10. y Heb. 7. 25. and 9. 24. and 13. 15. Rev. 8. 3. 4. z Isa. 53. 5. Rom. 5. 8. 10. a 1. Pet. 2. 5. b Rom. 12. 1 c Col. 3. 5. d Gal 5. 24 e Psal. 51. 17. f Heb. 13. 15. g Ephe. 6. 18 h Heb. 13. 16. i 2 Tim 2. 3. 9. k Heb. 12. 4 2 Tim , 4. 6 l Mat. 2. 6 m John. 12 and 15. n 1 Cor. 15. 25. o Jsa . 33. 22. p Mat. 28 20. q Psal. 72. r Iohn . 10. 28. & 16. 33. Rev 19. 11. 21. a Rom. 6. 14. b 1. Joh 5. 18 Rom. 16. 70. c 1. Ioh. 5. 4. d 1. Cor. 7. 23. e 1 Cor. 3. 22. f 1 Pet 5. 8. 9 g Ephe. 6. 12. h Joh. 15. 19. & 16. 32. i 1. Pet. 2. 11. k Rom. 8. 38. 39. l Rev. 1. 6. m Rev 5. 10 n 2 Tim. ● 12. Ioh. 17 24. 1 Thes. 4. 17. o Mat. 28. 19. Rom. 16. 26. p Phil. 3. 9. q Rom. 5. 19. r Joh. 1. 7. s Gal. 3. 13. t Rom. 5. 10 u Gal. 3. 9 14. x Rom. 3. 25. 30. & 4. 24. 25. y Rom. 6. 5. z verse . 6 a auers . 4. b Ephe. 4. 22. 24. Col. 3. 10. c Ephe. 2. 21. Rom 12. 4 5. d 1. Cor. 12. 4. 8. 9. 11. 12. 13. Ephe. 4. 4. 5. 15. 16. a Ephe. 3. 15. b 1. Pet. 5. 9. c Eph. 4. 5. d 1 Cor 8. 6. & 12. 4. 5. &c. Eph. 2. 18. & 4. 4. 5. 6. e Gal. 4. 26. f Iohn . 17. 21. g 1 Cor , 12. 13 h Reu 1. 11. i Act. 2. 41. 42. 47. & 5. 13. Heb. 10. 25. k 1 Cor. 5. 4. l Mat. 18. 20. m 1 Cor. 11. 20. 33. & 4. 5. q Exod. 20 24. Mat. 18. 20. Jsa . 4. 5. r 1. Cor. 3. 22. 23. & 1. 7. 30. &c. Rev. 2. and 3. s Act. 20. 17. 28. Phil. 1. 1. 1 Pet 5. 1. 2 t Col. 1. 18. I Cor. 8. 6. and 12 ; 5. a Act. 2. b Rom. 10 17. Eph. I 13. c Act. 2. 38. 41. & 8. 37. d Exod. 19. 5. 8. 2. Chron. 34. 31. Luk. 1. 17. Ioh. 2. 26. Rom. 1. 5. Mic. 5. 4. e Gal. 3. 28 f Gen. 17. 7. 1. Cor. 7 14. g Gole . 1. 28. & 3 16. h Rom. 15. 1. &c. i Gal. 6. 1. Lnvit . 19. 2. 17. k 1 Thes 5. 14. l Mat. 3. 7 2. Cor. 6. 14. &c. 27. & 22. 15. Isa. 35. 8. 9. Zach. 14. 21. m Rev. 21. Mat. 18. 17. 1. Cor. 5. 5. 11. 12. Tit. 3. 10. Num. 15. 30. 31. n Iohoa . 17. 20. &c. o 1. Cor. 14. 36. Gal. 5. 17 f Act. 6 , and 14 , 13 and 15 , 2. 3 , 22. 2 Cor. 8 , 19. g Act. 1 , 15. 24 , & chap. 6 , 2 , 3 , 4. 1 Timot. 3 2. 3 , 4 , 5. a 1 Tim. 3. 1. b 2 Tim. 2 , 15. c Tit. 1 , 9. d 2 Tim. 4 , 2 , Tit. 17 , 8. e Numb . 12. 3 , 4. Esa. 50 , 4 , 56 , Ier. 3 , 15 , Eze. 34 , 18. 1 Tim 5. 21. f Ps. 23. Levit. 10 , 10. g loh. 10 , 11 , 12. Song . 2 , 15 * 1 Tim. 3. chap. Tit. 1 , cha . 2 Tim. 2 , 15. 1 Cor. 1 , 17 , and. 2 , 4. 1 Cor. 3 , 11 , 12 , Mal. 2 6 , Ephes. 2 , 20. Heb 6 1. 1 Cor. 1 , 17. 1 Tim. 4. 16 , and 6 , 20. † 1 Tim. 3 & 5. chap. Num. 12. 24 25. 2 Chro. 10 8 , Act. 15 , Numb 11 16 , Deu 1 13 , and 18. Exo. 39 , 42 1 Tim. 3 , 15 , Gal. 2 , 45 , Colos. 4 16 , 17 Rom 12 , 8 1 Cor. 11. 16 & 14 33. Act 20 , 1 Pet. 51 Heb 54 * Act. 6 , 3 1 Tim. 3 , 8 , 9. Rom , 12 , 8 a 1 Tim. 5 9. 10. Rom. 12 , 8 * 1 Cor. 1● 28. Rom. 12 , 8 ▪ 9 Ephes. 4.8 , 11 , 12 13. a Luk 9 , 46 , 47. Ioh. 13. 12 17. 1 Cor. 12. 12. 25 , 28 Ephes. 4 , 11. 12. 13. 16. b Mat. 18 17 18. 1 Cor. 5 , 4. 5. 2 Thes. 3. 5. with Levit. 24 14. 15. 16 ●3 . Mat. 18. 17. 1. Cor. 11. a Mat. 18 b 1. Cor. 5. c Hag. 2. 13. d 1 Cor. 5. 9. 2. Thes. 2. 14. 2. Cor. 6. e Rev. 2. 14. 15. f Heb. 12 15. g Mat. 5. 16. h Eze. 36 20 , 23. i Deut 17. 12. 13. a Luk. 2. 42. 46. 47. & cap. 4. 16. 17. 18 Act. 8. 4. & cap. 11. 19. 20. 21 & cap. 13. 14. 15. & cap. 18. 24. 25. b Act. 19. 18. 24. & cap. 18. 24 25. c Luk. 9. 1 & cap. 10. 1. d d Rom. 12. 9. 1. Pet. 4 10. 11. 1 Cor. 14. 34. 35. e 1 Timot. 2. 11. 12. 1 Cor. 14. 34. 35. f Pro. 29. 18 Rom. 10. 17. 1. Cor. 1. 17. Rom 14 6. 7. g 2 Thes. 2. 4. Rev. 18. 4. & 14. 12 h Pro. 9. 3. 2 Kiug . 23. 5. Ier. 51. 26. Zach. 13. 4. Act. 14. 13. Ezr. 2. 6. 63. i Pet. 4. 10. 1 1. k 1 Thes. 5. 19. l 1 Tim. 3 2. 1 Cor. 14. 35. a Mat. 26. 26 . ●9 and 28. 19. 20. Exo. 12. 43. 48. and 20. 7. Ast. 2. 38 41. and 8. 36. 37. Gen. 17. b Rev. 1. 13. 1 Tim. 3. 5. Psal. 65. 5. c Psal. 119 6. Luk. 1. 5 d Iud. 20. Rom. 1. 12 1 Cor. 11. 27. e 1. Thes. 5. 14. Heb. 3 12 , 13. & 1. 24. 25 f Psal. 133 3. Esa. 60 , 15. Deut. 4. 12 , 13 a 1 Cor. 14 ult . b Act. 19 , 18. Rom. 15. 9. 10. Psal. 18. 49. * Act. 20 , 28. 1 Cor. 7 , 17. a Gal. 5. 1. Mat. 3. 2. Eph. 2. 19 1 Cor. 12. 20. Act. 2. 38. 39. & 16. 15. 33. Mat. 28. 19. 20 Gen. 17. 7 8. 12. Eolos . 2. 12 13. Rom. 9. 41. Cor. 7. 14. b Ex. 20. c Mal. 1. 7 12. Heb. 10. 29. Hag. 2. 14. 5. Ezech. 44 7. e Mal. 28. * Act. 4. 19. 20. Danil . 6. 9. 10. Mat. 10. 28. Rev. 2. 3. Cap. 
A20807	----	Anterōtēmata Thomæ Draks Ten counter-demaunds propounded to those of the separation, (or English Donatists) to be directly, and distinctly answered. Draxe, Thomas, d. 1618. 1617 Approx. 11 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 5 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2003-09 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A20807 STC 7186A ESTC S105375 99841104 99841104 5663 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A20807) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 5663) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1475-1640 ; 1170:24) Anterōtēmata Thomæ Draks Ten counter-demaunds propounded to those of the separation, (or English Donatists) to be directly, and distinctly answered. Draxe, Thomas, d. 1618. [8] p. Printed by W. Jones, [London : 1617?] Caption title, first word in Greek characters. Imprint from STC. Signatures: A⁴. Running title reads: Ten counterdemaunds. Reproduction of the original in the Henry E. Huntington Library and Art Gallery. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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Quality assurance was then carried out by editorial teams in Oxford and Michigan. 5% (or 5 pages, whichever is the greater) of each text was proofread for accuracy and those which did not meet QA standards were returned to the keyers to be redone. After proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. Any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Brownists -- Controversial literature. 2003-01 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2003-04 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2003-06 John Latta Sampled and proofread 2003-06 John Latta Text and markup reviewed and edited 2003-08 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion Αντεροτεματα Thomae Dra●i . TEN COVNTERDEMAVNDS PROpounded to those of the Separation , ( or English Donatists ) to be directly , and distinctly answered . 1. WHether , that their rent , Schisme , and Separation from the Church and Congregations of England , can ( in any probabilitie ) bee pleasing vnto God , seeing , it hath had such vnhappy beginnings , the a first founder of it , comming to Iudas his shamefull and fearfull ende , hanging himselfe : and the b second totally recanting it , and reioyning himselfe to our Church , as diuers of their proselites doe daily : seeing also it hath had so small encreases , and so many dismall and fatall euents , and diuisions : one side excommunicating the other , some of them turning Anabaptists , and c others dying and distracted , by reason of irresolution . 2. Whether , that the quintessenced profession , Religion and discipline of these Nouations and Innouators , as it standeth in opposition to the Church of England , and the rest of the reformed Churches ) can bee of God , or , haue any approbation from God , seeing that it hath no vertue , power and efficacy in it ( as the Gospell preached in our English assemblies by Gods blessing aboundantly hath ) to winne , conuert , and drawe vnto their partie and profession , Atheists , Pap●sts , Heretikes , rude , profane and ignorant people : The Apostles , Euangelists , and ther holy successors , conuerted all sorts vnto God , but these refined reformers , onely seduce the sound , and peruert and estrange from vs , those , that are otherwise well affected , and of some vnderstanding and make them twofold more refractary then themselues . 3. Whether that ( in the very separatists conscience ) our reformed assemblies , ( wherein the Gospell of Christ is sincerely preached and professed , and the Sacraments duly and rightly administred ) are worse then the Iewes Synagogues , in which notwithstanding Christ his Apostles preached ; & our Ministers , worse then the Scribes and Pharisees , that sat in Moses Chaire , when Christ commandeth the people to heare , and obserue and doe , whatsoeuer ( according to Moses Lawe ) they did bid them obserue . Wherefore ( to reason à minore ad maius ) if our Lord Iesus , his Disciples , and the people did not separate from their Synagogues and assemblies , that were in faith and maners farre more defectiue then ours are , much lesse ought they to separate from our Church and assemblies , wherein , all the grounds of Christian Religion are soundly held , and professed . 4. Whether that those great multitudes of people ( though hitherto wanting the pretended Church-constitution of the Separatists ) that euen fasting heard our Lord Iesus preach , and professed themselues his Disciples , ( albeit many of them were drawen , not by doctrine but by miracles , report , & with a desire to be fed ) can with any reason bee denied to bee members of the visible Church , and whither those three thousands which blessed Peter at one Sermon conuerted ( for they were baptized , continued in the Apostles doctrine , fellowship , breaking of bread and praiers . ) were not , before that Presbyters and Deacons were chosen , true members of a visible Church , and this cannot bee refuted , and why are not our Church assemblies in England , ( much more grounded in the truth ) &c. a true visible Church ? and then with what conscience , doe , or can these Separatists sequester and rent themselues from them ? 5. Whether , ( to ascend no higher , and neerer the Apostles to me as I might ) that in Constantines the first Christian Emperours time , and euer since vnto Mr. Iohn Caluins dayes , for the space of some thirteene hundred yeares , there was no Christian Churches in Asia , Africke , Europe , because they had the same outward constitution formal State , Bishops , Arch-bishops , Metropolitans , & Church-gouernment ( for substance and substance of doctrine ) that our English Church hath , and retaineth . And if those were true visible Churches , why are not ours ( also ? ) 6. Whether , that the reformed Churches in the lower , and higher Germany , in France , the Church of Geneua &c. ( that come neerer to their constitution and discipline , then ours doe in England , ) bee true visible Churches , or no ? if they be such , why then doe they not adioyne themselues to some of them , but distast them as much as they doe ours ? And why doe they not in iudgment assent vnto any or all of those reformed Churches , that with a ioynt consent ( as may appeare by the harmonie of Confession ) acknowledge the Church of England to be a true visible Church , and giue vnto it the right-hand of fellowship ? how dare they refuse such a cloude of witnesses ? will these 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 put out all their eyes ? is there no Church in the world but their Platonicall Idea ? 7. How can the Church , or , Church-assemblies of England , bee false , Antichristian , bastardized , wherein the Gospell , is so soundly and solemnly and substantially taught and professed , and the Sacraments , so rightly administred and receiued , whose Bible translations , ( specially the last English translation done by his Maiesty command ) are so pure , that the very Separatists rest in them : wherein are so many thousands , yea hundred thousands of true Converts and orthodoxe Christians , that hath bred and brought forth so many excellent and renowned Martyrs , who haue sealed the trueth of our religion with their bloud , and died members of the protestant Churches ; wherein so many Christian exiles are comfortably harboured , wherein so many sound , religious and learned Pastors , Doctors , Preachers , as ( for proportion ) no Country in the world can afford the like ; and by whose doctrine , writings , disputes , ( not to speake of the Magistrates sword ) the Romish Ierico hath bin more shaken , and the second beast the Antichrist , more fatally wounded , then by any nationall Church whatsoeuer : and which Church , and the members thereof , haue beene so wonderfully blessed and protected , and so strangly deliuered from the rage , tumults , designes , treasons , conspiracies of the Romish Antichrist and all his adherents : and in which Churches ( as one of the princiall Separatists I. R. in his admonition ad lectorem , in his owne name and in the name of his faction , lately prefixed before the third booke of M. Robert Parker , de politia ecclesi . pag. 368. confesseth , that the grace of God by the Gospell , in respect of the cheife heads of true Christian faith , by diuers of the faithfull preached , doth so abound , that there are very many godly and holy men in these assemblies , both of Reformitants and Conformitants , which they acknowledge for brethren in Christ &c. We haue ( by their owne confession ) sound faith , and holinesse , why then doe they or how dare they sunder and rent themselues from such a Church , and why will they for accidents and circumstances , denie and renounce the substance of a Church ? And if they ( vpon bettercōsideration ) estcēc vs brethren , with what warrant cā they seperate from holy brethren in Christ , is it not good and pleasant for to see brethren to dwell together in vnitie ? Did not the conuerts in S. Peters dayes continue dayly with one accord in the Temple &c. And why doe not our Separatists who would be accounted conuerted Saints , imitate them , must wee leaue and forsake a goodly Cittie , for the weaknesse of the walls ? 8. How can the formall state ( as they call it ) of the Prouinciall , Diocesan , Cathedrall & Parishionall Churches of England , and the regiment thereof , be vnlawfull , papall , Antichristian ? And how doe , or , can the Lawes of the land , and Ecclesiasticall Cannons confirme it ? seeing that the name , calling & office of B B : whether we respect ordination of ministers or power of iurisdiction , is ( as hath ben , & will be proued ) for substance expressed in diuers places of the new Testament ; seeing , it hath had a continuall succession from the Apostles time to this day , as all auncient Fathers and Counsells acknowledge : and seeing that ( at least ) this formall estate of Diocesan , Parishionall and Cathedrall Churches , hath bin in vse , long before Antichrist was hatched , for the Pope was not Antichrist before he had gotten the Title of vniuersall Bishop , nor complete vntill he had gotten into his hands both swords , that is , both Ciuill and Ecclesiasticall Dominion : Doth not euery Bishop amongst vs , euery Pastor and ecclesiasticall officer , abiure the Prpes vsurped supremacie ? Doe not our statutes , and Cannons directly make againg papistry and Idolafry ? What will Sathan expell Sathan , and will the members of Antichrist fight against Antichrist ? And admitt all bee , as you pretend , doe we not ( at least ) kill Antichrist with his owne sword and weapons ? 9. Whether , any new lawes can , or ought to be enacted , or any further reformation made without the Christian Princes or Magistrates consent , or euer in a well ordered Church hath bene enacted , or made and whether , they haue done well , to seperate with out the Kings Maiesties leaue and licence , and consent of the state ? 10. Whether , it were not the separatists best course , to returne to Gods true Church and people , from which ( vpon some concealed hard dealing ) they haue made an vnlawfull rent , and therein to confer with the best learned , and if still their consciences be somewhat tender , to supplicate for some fauour and liberty , or if they will not take this course , whether it were not good for them , for the avoiding of scandall , and in expectance of some prosperous successe , by the permission of our noble King , and honourable Counsell to remoue into Virginia , and make a plantation there , in hope to conuert infidels to Christianitie ? FINIS . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A20807-e10 Maister Bolton . Maister Browne . Maister Nowell of Sheldon in Warwicke-shire &c. Mat. 23. v. 2. 3. Mat. 14. 13. 14. 15. 16. 17. Ioh. 6. 5. 10. 11. Ioh. 6. 27. Act. 2. 37. 38. 41. Act , 2. 46. Anno. 1607. 
A29892	----	The Brownists synagogue or A late discovery of their conventicles, assemblies; and places of meeting, where they preach, and the manner of their praying and preaching. With a relation of the names, places; and doctrines of those which doe commonly preach. The chiefe of which are these. Greene, the feltmaker. Marler, the buttonmaker. Spencer, the coachman. Rogers the glover. Which sect is much increased of late within this city. This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription A29892 of text R16519 in the English Short Title Catalog (Wing B5191). Textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. The text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with MorphAdorner. The annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). Textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. This text has not been fully proofread Approx. 13 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 5 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. EarlyPrint Project Evanston,IL, Notre Dame, IN, St. Louis, MO 2017 A29892 Wing B5191 ESTC R16519 99860048 99860048 112155 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A29892) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 112155) Images scanned from microfilm: (Thomason Tracts ; 30:E172[32]) The Brownists synagogue or A late discovery of their conventicles, assemblies; and places of meeting, where they preach, and the manner of their praying and preaching. With a relation of the names, places; and doctrines of those which doe commonly preach. The chiefe of which are these. Greene, the feltmaker. Marler, the buttonmaker. Spencer, the coachman. Rogers the glover. Which sect is much increased of late within this city. Taylor, John, 1580-1653, attributed name. [2], 6 p. s.n.], [London : Printed anno Dom. 1641. Anonymous; attributed to John Taylor. Place of publication from Wing. The words "Greene, .. glover." are enclosed in brackets on title page. Reproduction of the original in the British Library. eng Greene, John, -- Feltmaker. Marler, -- Buttonmaker. Rogers, Richard, -- Glover. Spencer, John, -- Groom. Brownists -- England -- Early works to 1800. A29892 R16519 (Wing B5191). civilwar no The Brownists synagogue or A late discovery of their conventicles, assemblies; and places of meeting, where they preach, and the manner of t Taylor, John 1641 2332 3 0 0 0 0 0 13 C The rate of 13 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the C category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2000-00 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2001-08 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2001-09 TCP Staff (Michigan) Sampled and proofread 2001-09 TCP Staff (Michigan) Text and markup reviewed and edited 2001-11 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE BROWNISTS SYNAGOGVE OR A LATE DISCOVERY Of their Conventicles , Assemblies ; and places of meeting , Where they Preach , and the manner of their praying and preaching , With a Relation of the Names , places , and Doctrines of those which doe commonly Preach . The chiefe of which are these . Greene , the Feltmaker . Marler , the Buttonmaker . Spencer , the Coachman . Rogers the Clover . Which Sect is much increased of late within this City . A Kingdome divided cannot stand . Printed Anno Dom. 1641. The Brownists Synagogues . OR , A Discovery of their Conventicles and Assemblies , THe distractions of these times are not unknowne to be caused by the Copiousnesse of Sects , Religions I cannot terme them least I should disallow of that Axiomaticke of K. Iames of blessed Memory , for he acknowledged but two Religions , the good and the bad , and those were the Protestants and the Papists , the Protestant the true , and the Papists the false , but there are a Company of erroneous Sectarists , and Haeriticall opinions , crept in amongst us , like so many weeds in a pleasant Garden ; what good counsell hath our Saviour given us , and how little use doe wee make of it , he bids us take heed least we be led away with the Doctrine of false Prophets , Matth. 7. 15. yet how apt are we to believe the Traditions of men . How many Sects and Schismes are lately sprung up here in this Kingdome , that they ( like to the Plagues of AEgypt ) have over-run the Land , but namely the Brownists , the Brothers of the Separation , beare the greatest sway , to what an height of impudency have they of late aspired unto , being upheld by too many of that Sect , they like the Philisti●●s bring their Goliah to fight their battels ; But there is no doubt , but there will arise a David of truth to beate down their violent & fantasticall Doctrine , by which so many simple Disciples are seduced , further these our Sectarists will abide no degrees in Schooles , all humane Learning must be layd by , Academies are to them abominable , nay herein they comply with the Papists , whose Doctrine they pretend utterly to abhorre , who hold that ignorance is the mother of Devotion , and of these opinions was How , that notorious Predicant Cobler , whose body was buried in the high-way , and his Funerall Sermon was preached by one of his Sect in a Brewars Cart , such an Anti-Bishop was Eaton the famous Button-maker in St. Martins , but because they are translated from life to death : I leave them . Hence come those violent outrages , and Sacrilegious disorders cōmitted in the Church , even in the time of Divine Service , and hubbubs and strange tumults raised , where reverend silence ought to be used , by laying violent hands upon the Minister , rending his Hood frō his neck , and tearing the Surplice from his back , he hardly escaping in his own person , from being torne in peeces , and even when the Psalme is singing , and the Preacher , ready to goe into the Pulpit , to deliver his Sermon ; as likewise rending the Railes from before the Communion Table , chopping them in peeces , and burning them in the Church Yard , and this to be done without authority , commission , or order , in a riotous manner , taking upon them further power then Iustice requireth , I hope the Parliament will take into their wise and grave considerations and pious care , the peace of the Church , and not suffer it to be clowded or eclipsed by these mists and errors of darknesse and ignorance , my prayer is , & let it be prayer of all good Christians , that these AEgyptian Locusts , that swarme in every corner of this City and Kingdome , may be expelled , that we may enjoy the light of the Gospell . Let me gentle Reader not be prolixious , and I shall here relate unto thee the names , and places where these illiterate preachers live , and make their assemblies , with the unlearned Doctrines and opinions they hold . The first man that I begin with , shall be an Irreverend Glover , whose name is Richard Rogers , living nigh Whitecrosse-street in the Suburbs of London , in Blew-Anchor-Alley , he oftentimes doth call a Congregation as he termes it , and at his own house tels them what they should doe , which is to con●●●● the Church where the Relicks of Religion 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to seperate themselves from it , and gather themselves to those which doe feed the holy flockes , which doe abhorre that Diabolicall function of the Bishops , which are nothing but Altarwise , the spirit he tells them , moves him , and so proceeding hee tells them what first comes into his mind , his Apologie is , that he speakes nothing , but that which the spirit gives him utterance for . Then there is one Ieremy Manwood , whose Doctrine is to be heard in Goate Alley nigh the same street , who doth commend the opinion of those wch being Seperatists , to abhorre the Society of the wicked , once in a forrnight doth he teach . Also there is one Edward Gyles , whose holy Brothers meet together in Checker-Alley nigh the same place , his Doctrine is this , That the guilded Crosse in Cheapside , is an Idolatrous Crosse , for many adore and worship it as an Idoll , and that it is an Eye-sore to their uprightnesse , and ought to be abolished , he teacheth every first day of the moneth . There is also a Buttonmaker in Aldersgate-street , whose name is Marler , which doth seldome misse once in a weeke , and his opinion is , That every man should follow his owne calling , why then doth he robbe Levi of his due ? Why doth he dare to reckon himselfe amongst the Children of the Prophets , his answer to which proposition is , because they prove droanes , wherefore he to show himselfe a laborious Bee , doth supply their places . Also there is one Iohn Tucke , whose Associates have their Convocation in Fleet-lane , and his opinion is , That the Booke of Common Prayer , had its first Originall from the Masse . Humphrey Gosnold doth teach nigh Tower-hill , who doth keep his haire long , because he would not be knowne to be a Precisi●n , he telleth his holy assembly , that those Pipes , or Organs , which are set up in Pauls Church , and other places , makes more noyse with their roaring , then all the Bulls of Basan did , when Ogg their King passed by them in tryumph . Ionas Hawkins a Fisherman is a provoker to seperation , and liveth in Chick-lane . Iohn Brumley in Chancery Lane is another Zelote , which doth exhort his Brethren to follow him , twice in a weeke he teacheth , the women his holy & zealous sisters , well affect him . Roger Kennet , a Yorkeshire man , doth draw a company to him , nigh the Royall Exchange , his opinion is , none can bee saved , but those which are of their Elect. Edward Iohnson a Chandlor , is the teacher to the Society which Assemble together in More-lane , and holdeth these tenents , that the house , field , or Wood wherein their Congregation meets , is the Church of God , and not the Churches we meet in , because the good and bad come both thither , neither is it lawfull to have any Society with the wicked . Iohn Bennet , is he which teacheth nigh Love lane in Westmin . he disalloweth of humane Learning , his reason is this , some of Christs Apostles were Fishermen , when he called them . George Dunny is the man which doth teach in the Minories , he tearmeth his holy Brothers and Sisters the seperated Saints , from the Prophane Church , wherein Idols have bin worshipped , and where Copes and Surplices , the Garments of the Babilonish Whore , is still worne . Charles Thomas a Welchman , doth teach in Warwick-lane , once in a fortnight , as hee holds none lawfull to be amongst the Prophets , but those who were inspired by the Spirit , so no man is fit for their holy service , but devout men , and who is familiar with the Spirit . Alexander Smith , doth teach in the Congregation which gather themselves together in Shorditch , whose opinion is , no man ought to teach but whom the spirit moves , and for this one reason , may we set our selves against those Schollers , as Bishops , Deanes and Deacons , which strive to construe the Scriptures according to the translation of the Hebrew , Greek , and Latine , which last language , stinkes like a peece of Biefe a twelve moneth old , yet new salted . Edmund Nicholson teacheth in an Alley in Seacole-lane , hee sayes they are the Elect and pure in Spirit , chosen vessels of honour , and not of this world . But now I come to the two Arch Separatists , Greene and Spencer , both which are accounted as Demy-Gods , they keep no constant place , but are here , and every where , the one of them is a Feltmaker , which is Greene , the other a Coachman , both which called an Assembly upon Tuesday being the 28. of Septemb. in Houndsditch , the tenor of his Doctrine was this , That the Bishops function is an Antichristian calling , and the Deanes and Prebends , are the Frogs and Locusts mentioned in the Revelation , there is none of these Bishops ( saith he ) but hath a Pope in their bellies , yea they are Papists in grain , they are all of them vnleavened soules , & we have turned them over to be buffetted by Satan , and such like Shismaticall Phrases , as the evill Spirit moves him . But let all judge , was not this an excellent simile of the Reverend Coachman , which having an occasion to make use of a place , which sayes , ye shall be like unto Kings and Queens , which he did apply to those which were gathered together to his Sermon , hee called the men there Kings , the women Queens , saying , that it was an absurd thing for a King to keep company with a slave , or one of the black guard , or for a Queen to keepe company with a Kitchin-stuffe wench , so was it an unseemly part for any of that holy Assembly , to keepe company with a Reprobate , one of the wicked , or one which did accord with the late Innovations raised by the Corporation of Prelacy , which similitude , whether it were Religious , let all good men judge , for the whole needs no Physitian , wherefore it is requisite in some cases , that those which are piously affected , should keepe cōpany with those that are in a wrong way , that by their Admonitions , the wicked might learne to tread the pathes of the Righteous , but I forbeare to speake any more of his Doctrine . But to proceed to show the manner of their assembling , or rather dissembling . In that house where they intend to meet , there is one appointed to keepe the doore , for the intent , to give notice if there should be any insurrection , warning may be given them . They doe not flocke all together , but come 2. or 3. in a company , any man may be admitted thither , and all being gathered together , the man appointed to teach , stands in the midst of the Roome , and his audience gather about him . He prayeth about the space of halfe an houre , and part of his prayer is , that those which come thither to scoffe and laugh , God would be pleased to turne their hearts , by which meanes they thinke to escape vndiscovered . His Sermon is about the space of an houre , and then doth another stand up to make the text more plaine , and at the latter end , he intreates them all to goe home severally , least the next meeting they should be interrupted by those which are of the opinion of the wicked , they seeme very stedfast in their opinions , and say rather then they will turne , they will burne . Now have I discovered their Teachers , their meetings , and the manner of their meetings , I conclude , praying to God , that he would put it into the minds of some well affected Christians , to complaine of them to the higher powers , the Honourable and High Court of Parliament , for unlesse they be prevented and suppressed , it is to be feared , that this Kingdome will never bee free from Divisions , disturbances , and distractions , which , God of his great mercy ever defend . FINIS . 
A33528	----	The coblers end, or his (last) sermon being a true relation of that sermon, which was preached in St. Georges Church in Southwark by a cobler last Sabbath day, being the 12. of December, 1641 : who most impudently and insolently stept up into the pulpit and broached his Brownisticall and erroneous opinions to his auditors. Cobler. This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription A33528 of text R7271 in the English Short Title Catalog (Wing C4783). Textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. The text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with MorphAdorner. The annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). Textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. This text has not been fully proofread Approx. 9 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 5 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. EarlyPrint Project Evanston,IL, Notre Dame, IN, St. Louis, MO 2017 A33528 Wing C4783 ESTC R7271 11799586 ocm 11799586 49356 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A33528) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 49356) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 22:8) The coblers end, or his (last) sermon being a true relation of that sermon, which was preached in St. Georges Church in Southwark by a cobler last Sabbath day, being the 12. of December, 1641 : who most impudently and insolently stept up into the pulpit and broached his Brownisticall and erroneous opinions to his auditors. Cobler. [8] p. Printed for I.H., London : 1641. "His text was taken out of the 30. chapter of Esaiah, and the last verse" Reproduction of original in Union Theological Seminary Library, New York. eng Sermons, English. Brownists. A33528 R7271 (Wing C4783). civilwar no The coblers end, or his (last) sermon, being a true relation of that sermon, which was preached in St. Georges Church in Southwark by a cobl Cobler 1641 1466 6 0 0 0 0 0 41 D The rate of 41 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the D category of texts with between 35 and 100 defects per 10,000 words. 2006-07 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2006-07 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2006-09 Mona Logarbo Sampled and proofread 2006-09 Mona Logarbo Text and markup reviewed and edited 2007-02 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE COBLERS END , Or His ( LAST ) SERMON , Being A true Relation of that SERMON , Which was preached in St. Georges Church in Southwark By a Cobler last Sabbath day , being the 12. of December , 1641. who most impudently , and insolently stept up into the Pulpit , and broached his Brownisticall & Erroneous Opinions to his Auditors . This is none of y 〈…〉 Flashes , But all is most real 〈…〉 ●●uth . His Text was taken out of the 30. Chapter of Esaiah , and the last verse . For the fire of Hell is ordained from the beginning , yea even for the King is is prepared . &c. London , Printed for I. H. 1641. C ◆ R The Coblers End : OR His ( last ) Sermno THe Brownists are acknowledged to be the Caterpillars of Religion , who doe daily strive to contaminate the sincere purity thereof ; for they will not be exhorted by Apostolicall confirmation , and Propheticall Institution of the sacred word of God , but according to the traditions of their owne roving fancies they ordaine no Orthodox , but Hereticall opinions , and ( that I may use their own words ) as the spirit ( of Error ) moves them , they will broach new Doctrine to their long eared Auditors . But lest I should seeme to deviate from my intended subject , I will with out any digressing aberration proceed herein . There have bin a surreptitious Lecture continued in St Georges parish in Southwark , in the succession of about three weeks , and last Friday ( being the appointed day for the aforementioned Lectur ) one Vincent preached there at the same parish , but his Doctrine was so Schismaticall , that there was a great mutiny among the confluxe of the popular vulgar ▪ Yet notwithstanding by the peculiar , & particular suggestions of some of the said parish , being of his owne tribe ▪ hee was appointed to preach on the Sabbath day immediatly succeeding without the generall assent or consent of all the Parishioners , and being supposed by his externall gesture to be some Scholler , he had more admittance , then otherwise shuld have bin granted him . And being confident of his resolute insolencie , he nominated his text , and proceeded according to the Tenour of these words following . HIs text was taken out of the 30. Chapter of Esaiah , and the last verse . For the fire of Hell is ordained from the beginning , yea even for the King is it prepared , &c. Which words he said like the foure rivers , that were divided into foure heads to water the garden . So his Text was divided into three parts . 1. The Damnation ordained . 2. The time when , from the beginning . 3. The disrespect of persons , yea for the King it is prepared . And thus he began with his first point , viz. the Damnation ordained : that all those who would not preach as Coblers , and Tinkers , were damned . Secondly , that those who heard the booke of Common-Prayer ( being in their imaginary supposition Popish ) were damned . Thirdly , that those , who would admit of Bishops , and such Romish priests were damned . Fourthly , that those who preached or prayed otherwise , then the spirit moved him , did offend God , & those that offend God should be damned , therefore by consequence , hee that did not pray ex tempore , or preach according as the spirit shall inable him , shall without doubt be damned . And with that he cryed fire fire , so vehemently , that I wonder some did not spit on his face to quench and extinquish the flaming fire of his lustfull mind , and concupiscence . Then he proceeded to his second particular , viz. the time when from the beginning : and then he affirmed positively that all men were from the beginning predestinated to be damned . But this we know ( as his other ) is a maine point of blasphemy . And moreover that no learning , either morall ▪ or divine , was requisite for the Ministeriall function , but altogether as the spirit moved them . And withall he gave his assertion , and direct astipulation to heare rather a Cobler , Felt-maker , Tinker , Horserubber , as those reverend fathers , Mr Greene , Mr. Marler , Mr. Spencer , &c. then any other Scholler , who shall premeditate his Sermon . Thus he proceeded in his erroneous opinions , and hereticall doctrine , scolding , and rayling at all men , and all professions , that he could recall into his memory , still crying with a deplorable exclamation , fire , fire , but to what effect I know not , unlesse he himselfe did feare Hell fire for his abominable , and scandalous words . But to omit many of his ridiculous proofes , he at length came to his third point of doctrine , viz. The disrespect of persons , it is appointed for the King himselfe : but if I should describe in an apparant declaration each particular Schisme , that he obstinatly produced in this regard , I should be more blamed for expressing it , then hee was for speaking it : yea , I should be more ashamed to demonstrate that , which he was not ashamed to declare . Therefore ( judicious Reader ) I omit the subsequence of his facinorous inference to your better mentall reservation : neither will I rub the Cicatrix of this wound , least it should bleed afresh . Wherefore when the alarme of his obstreperous tongue was ended in this prior division , he proceeded unto some other particulars , which were not lesse dangerous , and hereticall in explication , then the former . First he affirmed that all Bishops were contrary to the word of God , and therefore Diabolicall . Secondly , that the booke of Common-Service was diducted out of the Popish Liturgy , and therefore ought not to be admitted , or have any approbate allowance in our publick Assemblies , and Congregations . Thirdly , that every one might exercise the talent , according as the spirit shall enable them : for first , whatsoever comes from the spirit is truth . Secondly , the spirit cannot suggest a man amisse . Thirdly , that the spirit guides a mans thoughts to the right object of heavenly things . Fourthly , that he which is led by the spirit , is an absolute child of God . Therefore he did assure them to embrace all those good Admonitions , which hee had declared unto them ; for he would warrant them that they did all proceed from the holy spirit . Also , divers other things he did peremptorie affirme in his Pulpit , all which would be too long for me to relate . Therefore least I should trespasse too far on your clement patience , J will consummate all in a word , and conclude ; While my daily prayers shall be , that the Parliament would take these premises into their grave considerations , &c. The Relation of the Combustion in Saint George his Parish in Southwarke , LAst Sabbath Day , being the 12. day of December , Mr. Mason the Curate of the said Parish Church should have preached , and there were divers Brownistically intended , that had presented the name of one Vincent unto him to preach for him who was a Cobler living in Holborne , and the Curate asked him whether he head warrant or no to preach , he answered , that it was nothing to him , and he would preach in spight of his teeth . With that he crawled up into the Pulpit , like a Jackanapes , and preached there according to his wisedome , I should have said according as the spirit moved him . And after Sermon there was a great hurrying over the pewes , and many came to defend him , and flinging a gray Coat over his shoulders , they covered his knavery . But the Church-wardens , the chiefest of the Parishioners , and especially Sir Iohn Lentle , Justice of Peace , commanded that he should be apprehended : who is now to answer at the Common-Counsell for his blasphemous words . FINIS . 
A64170	----	Grand plvtoes remonstrance, or, The devill horn-mad at Roundheads and Brownists wherein His hellish Maiestie, by advice of his great counsell, Eacus, Minos & Radamanthus, with his beloved brethren, agdistis, beliall, incubus & succubus : is pleased to declare 1. how far he differs from round-head, rattle-head or prickeare : 2. his copulation with a Holy Sister : 3. his decre affection to Romish Catholikes and hate to Protestants : 4. his oration to the rebells. This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription A64170 of text R13522 in the English Short Title Catalog (Wing T463). Textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. The text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with MorphAdorner. The annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). Textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. This text has not been fully proofread Approx. 7 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 4 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. EarlyPrint Project Evanston,IL, Notre Dame, IN, St. Louis, MO 2017 A64170 Wing T463 ESTC R13522 12594113 ocm 12594113 64007 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A64170) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 64007) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 250:E138, no 11) Grand plvtoes remonstrance, or, The devill horn-mad at Roundheads and Brownists wherein His hellish Maiestie, by advice of his great counsell, Eacus, Minos & Radamanthus, with his beloved brethren, agdistis, beliall, incubus & succubus : is pleased to declare 1. how far he differs from round-head, rattle-head or prickeare : 2. his copulation with a Holy Sister : 3. his decre affection to Romish Catholikes and hate to Protestants : 4. his oration to the rebells. Taylor, John, 1580-1653. Brathwaite, Richard, 1588?-1673. [7] p. Printed for the Callacuchlania, [London] : 1642. Signed at end: Don Antonio Demanibus, secretary to His Infernall Majesty. Attributed to Richard Braithwaite in the Wrenn catalogue. Attributed to John Taylor by Wing. Illustrated t.p. Reproduction of original in Thomason Collection, British Library. eng Roundheads. Brownists. A64170 R13522 (Wing T463). civilwar no Grand Plutoes remonstrance, or, The Devill horn-mad at Roundheads and Brownists. Wherein his Hellish Maiestie (by advice of his great counse [no entry] 1642 1233 2 0 0 0 0 0 16 C The rate of 16 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the C category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2003-02 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2003-03 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2003-05 Jonathan Blaney Sampled and proofread 2003-05 Jonathan Blaney Text and markup reviewed and edited 2003-06 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion GRAND PLVTOES Remonstrance , OR , The Devill Horn-mad at Roundheads and Brownists . Wherein his Hellish Maiestie ( by advice of his great Counsell , Eacus , Minos & Radamanthus , with his beloved Brethren , Agdistis , Beliall , Incubus & Succubus ) is pleased to declare , 1. How far he differs from Round-head , Rattle-head , or Prick-eare . 2. His Copulation with a Holy Sister . 3. His deere affection to Romish Catholikes , and hate to Protestants . 4. His Oration to the Rebells . Printed for the 〈◊〉 , in the yeere 1643. Plutos Remonstrance , OR , The Devill Horn-mad at Round-heads and Brownists . I Grand PLVTO , Chiefe Metropolitan in my Demoniack Kingdome , have by the advice of my Infernall Counsell , thought fit to publish this my Devilish Declaration , to all my welbeleved children , as well Brownists as Papists . His Professed hate to the Round-Heads . 1. THat whereas his Hellish Maiestie hath by some of his ill-affected and factious Children , been termed Round-head or Brownist , as being converted by the moving spirit of a Regenerate Sister , and begetting of her a numerous issue of Round-heads , Prick-eares , Brownists , &c. We therefore fearing that the said scandall might prove very dangerous to our infernall Government , by the great disheartning of our obedient and well-affected chilldren the Romish Catholikes , in their plots and practises against their lawfull Soveraigne , hath thought fit to declare , that hee never sided with , or tempted any the said Brownists in any designe against his dearest Children the Catholikes , their Church or Ceremonies , but that it hath ever been our greatest care to animate both Brownist as well as Papist against our own and your common enemy the Protestants , their Church , King , and Parliament , which is likely to prove the overthrow of me and my infernall Kingdome . His Copulation with a Holy Sister . 2. That whereas our infernall Maiestie hath been thought to have had carnall copulation with one Ruth Incontinence , a Sister in the Family , be it knowne to our deere children the Romanists , that though we have wished well to the said Sister Incontinence , and have bestowed on her some gifts of our Diabolicall spirit , yet had no intention to violate our vow made to our deer Spouse Superstition dwelling in Blind-devotion , in the parish of Ignorance , in the Kingdome of Popery , of whom We have begotten many obedient Children to effect our great designe for Ireland , and are in further hope , by her yet unperfect issue , to worke some way or plot for the confusion of this present Parliament , to which end wee have presented her with many tokens of our great love and favour , viz. One of the Blessed Virgins slippers , and many Images of her Son , likewise an Agnus Dei , made of Virgins wax , that by vertue of our Diabolicall Coniurations , hath power to preserve from fire water , sicknesse , and the deliverance from numberlesse perills , likewise many bookes of Ave-Maries , Imprecations and prayers to Saints , also one book fairely gilt , with Crucifixes on the lids , wherein is contained the Price that his Holinesse hath set on all sinne whatsoever , murder of Kings , father or mother , Rapes committed on sister , &c. wherunto is annexed a most excellent Epitaph wiritten by a Most Reverend Cardinall , and great Champion for the Romish Church , on his most deerly beloved Bitch , for whose sake , he built a new monument in his garden , on which he writ as followeth , This Tombe for thee Deere Bitch I builded have , That worthier wert of Heaven then of a grave . And for the further good of our Deere Sister Superstition , wee have spared no paines to inspire with our Diabolicall spirit of obstinacie and error , all manner of Brownists , Anabaptists , and many other Sects , which shall the more illustrate your Religion , deere Romanists , and that you all drawing several wayes , may ▪ like Sampsons Foxes , fire the Corn-fields , or Church of our common enemie the Protestants . His affection and care for his best-beloved sonnes the Romish Catholikes . 3. Wherereas wee have expressed our deere affection to our Catholike Children , in tempting the said Round-heads and Rattle-heads to reproach and vilifie the Sacred Person of their Lawfull King , and his Ministers of Iustice , and to speak all manner of Opprobious language against the Prophets of the Highest , nay even to glory in their falls , and pu●t them up with sulphurous Timpanies of preposterous zeale and mallice ; so that one of my dear daughters dwelling in Sobeit , at hearing of the Bishops commitment to the Tower , presently caused a Bonfire to be made , wherein she express'd her great ioy at their fall , and fired the same by her owne hot zeal , and afterward affirmed that her Kitchin was more holy then the Church , because she had a sinke in 't . And is not this deere Romanists worth my labour , in tempting them to what my naturall-born-Son the Turk doth scorn ; to iustifie your own Rebellious plots or Treasons whatsoever , have not I made them make Orthodox Scripture Apocrypha , to make your Apocrypha Orthodox ; say my deere Popelings , do's not all this make for you , and to the furtherance of you and your actions , have not I made their Common - Service almost as odious as your Masse-book , and for their Church , ready to be flung out at the windowes . His Oration to the Rebells in Ireland . 4. Lastly , my deere sonnes of Tumult , have I been unmindfull to bear the Crosse in your victorious Army , under which you have atchieved victory , to the amazemement of your enemies the Protestants , in recompense of which favor , have you not drank healths to my Infernall Maiestie in the blood of your enemies , making their sculls your quaffing-bowls , to the glory of your religion , and the freeing of many souls out of Purgatory ; hath not his Holinesse given you authority so to doe . Then take courage , and think not on those that have miscarried in such glorious Actions , let no reward of Treason trouble you , so long as his Holinesse bids you on , and I your chiefe Captain bid you on ; On then , regard no teares of Infants , nor Rapes of Virgins , Your reward shall be in my infernall Kingdom for your iust Merits in unheard of Cruelties , which shall eternize you and your Religion , and give full content to our infernall Maiestie , who to your aide will send Legions of his Infernall crew to accomplish your desires on your & my enemies the Protestants . VALE , Signed by Don Antonio Demonibus , Secretary to his Infernall Majestie FINIS . 
A13299	----	A Christian reprofe against contention Wherin is declared and manifested a just defence of the Church against such slanderes and reproches which Sabine Staresmore hath layd vpon vs in his two bookes, the first being 16 questions, called a louing tender. The second is his preface and postscript befor and behind Mr. Answorths last sermon, and making a pretence by that to sett it out as a loue token, hee breetheth out his malice against vs: and lastly her is an answer to a letter written by Mr. Robinson, and sent to vs with the consent of his Church, which now Mr. Staresmore hath published to the world. To these things an answer is giuen by A.T. A. T., fl. 1631. 1631 Approx. 109 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 24 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2004-03 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A13299 STC 23605 ESTC S103240 99838997 99838997 3390 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A13299) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 3390) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1475-1640 ; 1222:09) A Christian reprofe against contention Wherin is declared and manifested a just defence of the Church against such slanderes and reproches which Sabine Staresmore hath layd vpon vs in his two bookes, the first being 16 questions, called a louing tender. The second is his preface and postscript befor and behind Mr. Answorths last sermon, and making a pretence by that to sett it out as a loue token, hee breetheth out his malice against vs: and lastly her is an answer to a letter written by Mr. Robinson, and sent to vs with the consent of his Church, which now Mr. Staresmore hath published to the world. To these things an answer is giuen by A.T. A. T., fl. 1631. Thatcher, Anthony, attributed name. [4], 43, [1] p. Successors of G. Thorpe], [Amsterdam : Imprinted in the yeare M.DC.XXXI. [1631] A.T. = Anthony Thatcher?--STC. Place of publication and printer from STC. Reproduction of the original in the British Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. 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Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Staresmore, Sabine -- Early works to 1800. Brownists -- Early works to 1800. 2003-10 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2003-11 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2003-12 Olivia Bottum Sampled and proofread 2003-12 Olivia Bottum Text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-02 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A CHRISTIAN REPROFE AGAINST CONTENTION Wherin is declared and manifested a just defence of the Church against such slanderes and reproches which Sabine Staresmore hath layd vpon vs in his two bookes , the first being 16. Questions , called A louing tender . The second is his Preface and Postscript befor and behind Mr. Answorths last Sermon , and making a pretence by that to sett it out as a loue token , hee breatheth out his malice against vs : and lastly her is an Answer to a Letter written by Mr. Robinson , and sent to vs with the consent of his Church , which now Mr. Staresmore hath published to the world . To these things an Answer is giuen by A. T. 〈◊〉 us the foxes , the little foxes which destroy the vines , for our vines haue smale grapes . Songes 2. 15. How long halt yee betweene two opinions ▪ if the Lord bee God , follow him : but if Baals bee hee , then go after him . 1. Kings 18. 21. He that is first in his owne cause , is just : then commeth his neighbor , and maketh inquirie of him . Prou. 18. 17. Imprinted in the yeare M. DC . XXXI . To the Christian Reader . CHristian Reader , I giue thee to vnderstand : Wee haue not been forward to publish to the world these our co●…trouersies , and this thou maist take knowledge of , because the first of these our opposites books , hath been in print so many yeares , being printed in the yeare 1623 ▪ being 16. Questions of their owne forming , in the which wee haue great wronge done vnto vs ; yet haue wee patiently borne both that , and also that which they have printed the last yeare against vs , vntell such time wee heard by many witnesses , that our long silence hath turned to the hinderance of the trueth , and also our owne discredit : for diners haue been perswaded through our long silence , that wee are most in fault , or else wee would haue answered before this time ▪ therfore for the trueth sake , & our owne defence , we though it need full to sett o●… this Christian Reprofe vnto these our opposites , in the which thou maist see the great injury , they doe vnto the trueth and also vnto vs , by their vnjust imputations and slanderes , which they haue layd vpon vs : and althought for our selues wee could haue born these injuries in silence : yet for the trueth sake , and that none that haue a loue vnto the trueth , should be hindered or stomble thereat , therefore needfull it is that they should bee informed of the trueth of things as they are , in these our troubles , which by this short Answer , thou mayst take knowledge of . And although it consisteth of cōtrouersy , which it not so profitable , as some more heauenly meditations are : yet not withstanding the Lord doth suffer such things to arise , for the approuing of such as are faithfull : 1. Cor. 11. 18. 19 & that the people of God should not ly vpon the b●…d of security : Songes the 5. 5. but keepe their Christian watch , knowing that Satan seeketh too surprise vs by many meanes & wayes ▪ 1. Peter 5. 8. Act. 20. 31. for when he can not retaine vs , in the broad wayes of the world ; then will he send out the s●…oods of his persecutions , to see if hee can swallow vs vp in it , Reu. 12. 15. but when hee is restrained frō his purpose by the Lord , then will hee seek to ouerthrow vs by his ministers whom hee seduceth , euen in the Church of God , & so turne thē into shape , as if they were the ministers of righteousnesse , 2. Cor. 15. Act. 20. 29. 30. And of these things , gentle Reader , haue wee had our portion , diuers of vs hauing been persecuted by inprisonment , and many till death did insue , & others banneshed , & some loosing their right & inheiritāce , and must leaue it and be exsiled : yet these troubles are not so dangerous , nor yet so greuious vnto a sincere conscience , as seducers which a●…se in the true Church : and many that haue gone through persecutions , yet haue been ouertaken by seducers , & drawne away frō the true way of God ; yet this is no new thing as thou mayst see by those Scripturs before alledged : and as it was with the Churches of God of old , so is it at this present time with vs , for wee hauing gone through many persecutions , so haue wee had our part of trialls by decliners & seducers : and these our opposites hath greatly troubled vs with their errour , some they hath corrupted their with , & others they haue so incumbered their mindes , that they dayly trouble vs with Contention : and to bring their porposes about , they came most Lords dayes , diuers years & troubled vs with great desturbance , many haue been the prouocations , which they haue vsed towards vs to prouoke vs : so that wee may truely say , that as Paule had fought with beast at Ephesus , so haue wee at Amsterdam , fought with men of a beast-like conditiō , 1. Cor. 15. 32. & although I could say mor in these things , yet for the present I spare , to see if the Lord will worke vpō their hearts by this Christian Reprofe , which if it take not effect , but that they goe on to striue against the trueth , the Lord can giue a fit opportunity that their deedes may be fully layd open , cōcerning these things in question . And now Christian Reader , take thou heed , that thou stomble not at these things to forsake the trueth , for these things ought not to bee strange vnto thee , seeing the Apostells of Christ hath fortolde of these things , Act. 20. 29. 30. 2. Pet. 2. 1. 2. 3. yea & themselues were troubled with such trialles , whilles they were with the Churches , Actes 15. 2. Gal. 2. 4. 5. and som preaching Christ through enuie & strife , supposing to adde more affliction too the Apostells bandes , Phil. 1. 16. And hath not the Apostell told vs , that in these last dayes shall come perillous times , and that all sortes of sinnes shall abound ? 2. Tim. 3. 1. 2. 3. which should teach vs to bee more watchfull , and to judge wisly of things , and not too bee offended at the trueth , or any part thereof ; for it is the trueth that maketh vs free , Iohn 8. 31. 32. & yet when the Lord of glory was vpon the earth , which taught the trueth more excellent then euer did any , yet his owne Disciples went backe , & walked no more with him , stombling at his heauenly doctrine : seeing it is thus , that our corrupt nature is so soone caried a syde : how should wee desier of God , to haue the spirit of discerning , & of sincerity to walke in the trueth ; & wheras wee haue been euill spoken of , too be cōtentious , and of fierry spirits , with many such like reproches : But what is the cause that wee are thus reproched ? is it not because wee withstand errour and sinne : and suerly , although wee are weake men , yet hearin wee follow the examples of the Prophetes of God. Was not Moyses the meekest man vpon the earth ▪ yet was hee stored vp many times to great anger , because of the sinnes of the people : and who is more redy to carpe at the zeale of Gods people , then louse persons , or lucke warme Christians , which are redy to say as Ahab , 2. Cron. 18. 7. that when the word of God is spoken for their reprofe , they thinke it is neuer well spoken to them , well for mens esteem wee passe not vpon it : but I turn my speech to such as are faithfull : if they haue the loue of the trueth , and if they haue a desier too keepe the Lords watch in his house , then I say to such as Iehu sayd too Iehonadab 2. Kings 10. 15. ●…f their hartes bee vpright to the Lord , & to vs as ours is vnto them , then let them no●… stagger at these troubles : But come and helpe vs in our heauenly iourney : for great are the hinderances by our corrupt flesh and this world , and Satan hee vseth both these to insnare vs. But for such as are corrupt , and vnder a pretence of peace , and lowlines of minde , Col. 2. 18. will either broch errour or plead for sinne ; vnto such I say with Dauid , Psalm 119. 115. which saith : Depart from mee yee eu●…ll doers , for I will keep the commandements of my God. And this I speake not of singularity , but because I find that our corrupt nature hath not need of helpers into sinne : for wee are subject of our selues to run into sinne dayly . And now Christian Reader , for as much as the diuell hath in these our dayes reuiued a new his ancient course , teaching of men to abuse the Name of God , in 〈◊〉 vpon them to make a Couenant in their Antichristian estat , which is contrary to the word of God , and is a meanes , not only to insnar themselues , but also to draye , and insnare the people of God , which are escaped out of their bounds : but concerning this poinc●… , I refer thee to the 16. 17. 18. pages of this booke : And now that which I haue written , I commit it to thy judgment , in the which I pray thee bee not partiall , but read with consideration , and then with Moyses to say to him that doeth the wrong : Why smi●…est thou thy fellow . Exodus 2. 13. A Christian Reprofe against Contention . MR . Staesm : in the beginning of his booke settet downe as a cause of the publishing of Mr. Answorth Sarmon : To be a loue token of remembrance to his Brethren to in kindle theire affections to prayer that scandalles of many yeares continuance may be remoued that are bares to keepe many godly wise & judicious from vs , wherby wee might growe to further perfection againe . ANSWER . THat all the people of God ought to pray both for the prosperitie of the trueth and for the remouing of scandalles , that none may be hindered from the true walking in the trueth , it is their dutye so to doe . But is not Mr. S. the chiefe man which is the cause of the scandell nowe in question between vs , who all though wee did bear with him in his errour , and no doubte would so haue done vntill this day , and allwayes hee resting in peace yet was hee so bussie & vnrestty that hee is the chiefe man that hath brought this scandall or offence , therefore I aduertise him to remembare the saying of our Lord Iesus , woe be to the world because of offences , for it must needes be that offences shall come , but woe to be two the man by whome they come ; and as Mr. S. hath begone the offence : so hee is the these man that may in part by the acknowledging of his sinne heale the breach , and so helpe to take away the offences which if God vouchsafe to give unto him , I shall be glad and I hope all the people of the Lord also : Mr. S. instructeth vs how to remoue scandall , and in thè meane time hee runeth one sweftly two intrease the scandall by publishing of his vnjust writings Hee telleth vs that the setting out of Mr. Answorths Sarmon is his loue taken : But is this so in deed why then hath hee placed such a swet flower betweene such bitter and poysoned earbes , placeing before it his vntrue preface , and be hind it his stoffing postscript wher by hee abuseth the word of the Lord , and belyeth his neybours as afterwards I shall shewe God willing : if this be the euent of Mr. S. loue . what maye wee thinke will the event of his hattred be : But may 〈◊〉 not be justly feared such fruit as this that hee tocke an occasion to set out Mr. Answorths Sarmon , that so with it hee might send abroad his vnproffitable writings , and that hee might get the better sale which alone of them selfe would haue , but littel esteeme ; But let not Mr. S. pretend loue in this : for loue 1. Cor. 13. thinketh not euill : But hee in this hath done euill : loue rejoyceth in the trueth . But hee strifeth in errour and contention , therfore let Mr. S. feare that hee is guiltye of this Scripture , Prou. 26. 18. 19. 21. which saith : As a mad man casteth fire brandes arrowes & death , so is the man that dece●…ueth his neighbour , and saith am not I in sport , so hee speaketh of loue , but hee casteth vntruethes scandalles , and reproches and errour . M. Staes . in the beginning of his Preface showeth from the 1. Sam. 7. 2. how that the people of God lamented after the Lord , and as hee saith , the same affectione mee thinkes I perceive in many of you : to the which I answere , it ought not only to be the affectione of many : But of all : Gods people to lament the want of the Lords holy ordinances , and wheras hee speaketh of divers inconvenices for the want of the ministery , alas who will not grant it , and more then hee speaketh of , but wheras hee saith ; Being divers times hurried & ●…orne . with the loud out cryes and hard handling of furious and vnmercifull spirits . These things will fall vpon the head of Mr. S. himselfe : but first I answer : that wee are but weake mene and do sin in our best actions , how much more in the handling of the matteres of controversie , in the which there is allwayes opposition , yea all though the cause be never so just . And especially such subtill opposeres as Mr. S. and such as are with him be , and not only subtill , b●…t violent and vnresty and labouring daily to corrupte others who should others wayes thinke . But that in these troubles in many things wee have sinned , I speake it to Godes glory and our owne shame ▪ although the chiefe matter in countrouersy must ly vpon the head of Mr. S. wher it is due with all the euill euentes that doth follow hee being the cause of it . But vnto his clamours , I answer , although wee bee weake & subject to fayle , yet it followeth not therfore that his clamours are true : for what be the outcryes by the which hee or any are torn with all , I hope in countrouersy men must be answered , and if sinne be committed it ought to be blamed , but haue wee done as hee hath done , not only with his tong and pene to send letters , but also in print to send abroad his injurious writings by the which hee slandereth his neighbours , and not only once , but the second time as for example his 16. Questions set out the yeare ▪ 1623. would not any man that readeth them thinke that they are our grounds that hee hath sett out by the way of question , whereas in deed they are his owne framing as they may fite his owne turne beste , yea some altogether false as question the 5. and others the like may not one of them are so sett downe as that wee will approue of it : therfore as Mr. S. hath done euill in making such questions , so hath the answerer , or made his answer according as his mind was declined : and as Mr. S. hath done vs Injurie in them , so hath hee now as I shall shewe , if wee had thus done vnto him then hee might have complained of outcryes . But hee is like a quarrelling man which layeth hard strokes vpon his neighbours , & with all crieth out that hee hath the injury : & if hee be so bold as to sett out in print such vntruethes against vs : what may wee thinke hee hath done in secret with his tong and pene wher wee cannot come to know it : a few words is convenient more to be spoken concerning his 16. Questions , hee saith in his Epistle that hee was much prouoked latly to further it by some amongst vs , I am doubtfull of it , although hee saith that diuers can witnesse it because I know how vnresty hee is , and how smale an occasion hee will take to be provoked vnto his end lesse strife , nay was it not rather that hee toke an occasion both then & now to sett his Printery a worke , for in deed if hee goeth one as hee doth begin hee may make great vollomes to idle contention : but I hope a Christian answer may satisfie a descret reader & to keepe to the mayne things that are different betweene vs , but if any did provoke Mr. S. I hope they did not provoke him to sett downe 〈◊〉 nor yet to pervert our reasons by his owne formings . Hee saith these questions & answers were severall times tendered to our sight which wee would not vouchsafe to regard : to the which I answer neither doe wee regard them now , but doe retourne them to the former of them to whome they are due , & desire him as reason requireth that hee will giue his leaue to frame our owne groundes , as wee haue just occasions : and for our not receiving in to publique these questions & answers , by the answer allredye geven wherin is shewed how vntrue they are , are sufficiente , not to receive them , & also wee had experiance of his troublesomnes before : and should such things be read to the congregation moreouer it was signified that if they came with repentance wee were redy to hear it , and to receiue them with gladnes , but to read his forged writings in the Church wee have no warrant in the word of God , nor any example nor costome : And whereas hee saith : In these to our vnderstanding are comprehended the marrowe & substance of the things in difference betweene vs arising , both from that letter writ to London , the cause of our misery and other actions and dealinges occasioned from the same . To the which I answer first hee himselfe granteth . Them to be collected and composed questions in that hee saith : in these to our vnderstanding are comprehended , which as hee saith , did arise both from the letter and other actions and dealinges occasioned : Answer . But doth not our opposites knowne : that the 〈◊〉 placeing of words or the lacking of a word : or the adding of a word may change the sence , & too whome made hee these questiōs , was is not to one that was corrupted with the same errour that he held euen as dipt as himselfe , and should wee not expect a good resolution : neither will the marrowe and substance of the differences betweene vs , appeare by such questions and answers , for som questions which hee gathereth , are amisshapen and wanteth that that should be with it , and some are false and it is no marveile : for hee saith they arise from actiōs and dealings occasioned : and who knoweth not that by such compositions wee may be very much wronged and so wee are in deed . But wher hee calleth our letter the cause of our misery . To the which I answer his errour and his vnrestynes in his errour is the cause of our misery in all these troubles in questions , and for the letter although it is infearme as it is by man composed , yet is it a worke of God by his people against errour & sinne , being the manifesting of our Iudgment confermed by the word of God against that Samaritanest Couenant : being there vnto called : and haue not wee the Scriptures plantyfull for our warrant , having the Prophetes and Apostels for our example , it being appart of our spirituall warfare against since and seed of the serp●…nte to witnesse against such counterfait Couenant as the Prophet saith : Osea . 10. 4. They have spoken words swearing falsly in making a Covenant : and as Iohn saith , Reu. 2. 10. I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Iewes and are not , but are the Synagogue or Satan : and have wee not also an example in a such like cause as this in the Church of Ephesus which was commanded by the Holy Ghost Reu. 2. 2. for examining of them which saith they was Apostells , and are not : and hast found them liares . And should wee be blamed for examining of them as say they are visible Christians , and haue made a true Covenant when in deed they are found to be liares and this man : who is the chiefe cause of this our misery hath bin found falty in this respect long ago in London for hee went to Mr. Lee , and his people and desired of them Communion signifying to them that hee vvas as they ware : being in the same Covenant , & so got into theire Communion : But vvhen they came to heare that Mr. S. had deceiued them : ther vvas a meeting appointed betvvene Mr. Lee and his people , & Mr. Iacobe and his people , at the vvhich Mr. Sta. himselfe vvas presente and three other men vvhich aftervvards 〈◊〉 members of our Church vvhich testified vnto vs , hovv things vvas caried : so being come together , Mr. Iacobe their manifested as the truth vvas that they never intented separation from the Church of England : appearing to Mr. S. I for vvitnesse saying their sittes Mr. S. 〈◊〉 him gainsay it if hee can : to the vvhich speech , hee had not one vvord to gainsay : yet after this hee coming over to vs hee caried himselfe in the like manner tovvards vs , and vvee being ignorante hovv things did stand and hee concealing the truth , hee had almost dravvne our teacher to yeld to lett him communicate . But vvhen these 3. Brethren had given in their testimony hovv things did stand , then our teacher saith : That them it vvas to be considered other vvayes , & no doubt if the Lord had continued his life hee vvould haue discouered that Couenant in question , and yet for all this did this man continue in his vntrue speaking a long time after this saying that they vvere the most part separated , and vvhen hee vvas asked , vvhy hee did not then excepte against Mr. Iacobe vvhen hee appealled to him for vvitnesse : and being observed that your silence vvas a consent as in such causes it is offtentimes : to the vvhich hee ansvvered that it did not follovv , that because hee ansvvered not , that therfore it vvas so : and yet behold besides M. Iacobes testimony vvee sence haue other vvitnesse of 〈◊〉 men , vvhich vvas at the Couenant making , that none of them 〈◊〉 separated , and this is vnder ther ovvne hands ratified : and in one o●… their testimonies vvhich vvas don by their eldere hee is blamed 〈◊〉 as follovveth : vvhosoeuer shall say that they vvere separated , may vvel take shame vnto themselues , yea though it should bee M. S. himselfe , and vnto this vvriting is the hands of . Three more vvhich testifye that all of them vvent to hearing in the Church of England after the Couenant making to ther knovvledge : and novv seing that these things are so in the vvhich this man hath gone beyond himselfe in the speciall ground from vvhence all these our troubles did arise , hovv should hee feare himselfe even in his errour , and to take heed hovv hee goeth one in his procedings least the Lord leaue him vnto hardnes of harte , and to blindnes of eyes , as a just recompence for striuen against the truth : or to lay a snar in Mizpach , to insnare the soules of men , or to doe as Balaam did , which taught Balac to put a stumbling blocke before the Children of Israell , which this man hath done , and doth in the maintaining of that Samaritanesh Couenant , as through the helpe of the Lord , I shall proue in due time : And none to retourne to Mr. S. Preface againe hee calleth vs vnmercyfull spirits , vvho vnder pretence of godly zeale , and hatred against sinne vngodly massacre the true and living members of Christ body . First I answer that if I should follow him in all his clamours and insinuations , & also his taking vp of mens weaknesse let fall in reasoning , and dispute which hee vseth to hide his ovvne faultes and transgressions : then I say vvee might haue vvorke enough to doe , and increase vnprofitable writtings . But let him knovv that all men of vvisdome vvill thinke it apo●…re shifte to helpe himselfe with mens sinnes , or infirmityes to couer his ovvne sinnes , & so to auoide the maine matter in difference therfore fit it is : seing hee would not rest in his errour in peace : that novv hee should . Both justifie his errour and his vnrestynes in his errour , which vvas the cause of his casting out or else to fall vnder it : and to retourne with repentance , but seing hee hath vvritten vntru●… ths I shall make a briefe ansvver vnto them : But first vvher hee saith vvee are furious & vnmercifull , vvith other reprochfull termes before named : hee should haue stayed himselfe in these things vntill such time as hee had made good his cause in question , for vvho is not just in ther ovvne cause in their conceite which be in contention as hee is , and therfore the euill of his reproches , and all the hinderances vnto the truth , which hee speaketh of must lye vpon himselfe , except hee could make his errour truth and his vnrestynes , with seeking to se●… to be good and lavvful , which I knovv is more then hee is abell to doe . And for his quoting of Scriptures hovv largly and fitly might they all be applyed vpon himselfe as 1. Thess. 4. 1. might be applyed to him to show his busines before hee came to vs , and vvhill hee vvas vvith vs : and since hee vvas cast out being a raiser vp of contention so breaking those Scriptures Galat. ●… . 15. and 1. Cor. 11. 16. also for Rom. 16. 17. Hovv euidently doth that Scripture reproue his factious action , for the vvhich hee vvas cast out . But I leaue the manifesting of it vnto his propre place . And for the other whom hee saith are thrust out of the Church : vvhich vvitnesse for them I hope all men of vnderstanding may consider , that men that haue euill causes for the most part they lack not some partaker to assist them : And for them vvere they not as forvvard as any to cast out these tvvo opposites , yea more forvvard then many , and I am suer more forward then my selfe , and vvhat hath chāged theire mindes they say the meeting of the brethren aftervvards to be spoken of vvhich I may say is lese then affige leaue to couer there shame : and therefore may it not bee well feared that respects haue stollen awaye ther affectiō seing theire reason of change is of so little vvaight : and for this I can show reasons , but at this time I spare ; because that some although justly touched : yet vvould bee to much moued , and although I could say more yet I stay here , knovving that such things doth , but tend to vaine ●…anglinge . But this man hath administred the cause to speake this . And wheras hee saith vvee reject the vvord of God & all vvholsome counsell for our amendement countrary to the very letter of the 38. article , and why did hee not shevv vvherin also : was it not because hee might doubt of the truth of his affirmation and suer , if it be layd vpon him for an vntruth , I see 〈◊〉 hovv hee can shifte it for our article speaketh of the communion that all Churches haue for counsell , and helpe in all needfull things in the common faith , and this did wee practise in that our letter to the Church at London , in the vvhich this man did so much oppose vs , and hath made all this troubell , and also vvee practise that article as wee haue just occasion : But doth hee meane wee breake this article because wee doe not at his pleasure his will or the willes of such as h●… stoureth vp to bring other Churches , to bee judges whether hee bee rightly cast out or not , if all that are cast out should haue that righte as I know not why hee should haue more right then others : then t●… Churchs should haue worke enough to doe to looke to others businesses & to neglect their owne . But wee must learne to put a differance betweene that which concearneth the common faith , and the proper power that euery seuerall Church hath in it selfe : as for example in Reu. 2. and 3. chap. euery particular Church hath theire commandation or reprofe as they deserved : and as the Church of Pergamus was reproued for suffering of such as taught the Doctrine of Balaam , so needed they not to aske another church whether they should restraine them that so taught or , vvhether they should cast them out if they vvould not be restrained , or vvhen they had cast out anie to call for other Churches to knovv vvhether they had done vvel or not in so doing , especially to such Churches as vvere corrupted vvith the same errour , and hear obserue : that vvhen vvee did follovv our article in the sending our letter to the Church at London at theire request , then wee did euill as hee accounts , because it was against his errour . But novv vvee must follovv him although against reason , and bring our povver in to bondage or else hee vvill tell vs , vvee reject the vvord of God , and doe contrary to our ovvne article , hee telleth vs of our teachers speech vpon his deathbed concerning Christian moderation , suerly , the best of vs doth , come to shorte of it often times , but vvhy did hee himselfe so soone forget it , seing hee vvas so vnresty in his errour : for hee vvas theire , and heard his vvords . But they vvhom hee aymeth at to my best remembrance vvas not their : vpon vvhom hee taketh this occasion , to speake things not conuenient , and to bring in another mans speech vvhich helpeth not him in his matter to make it good or euill : neither will vvismen think it wisdome in him , to set out mens infirmities to the vvorld thinking therby to couer his owne : And for the causles troubles contrary to the Lavv and Gospell , which hee speaketh of that is to be proued by him , or they that can : vvhen vvee come to the pointe . Hee saith , the Church of Leyden hath plainly proued it too vs. I knovv not that they haue proue any such thing . But one thing I know that they take things for granted that are not so : as for example Mr. S. saith that wee doe contrary to the letter of the 8. position in our Apologie , wher hee would make others beleeve that his sinnes in question are , but matters of suspected euills , and not euills in deed , vvherin hee shall sind himselfe greatly deceiued when hee cometh to the triall therof : and wher hee saith certain discontented brethren made a meeting to change that solemne agreemēt of the church , the elder consenting and acting with them . Answer : How can this man cleare himselfe from a willfull vntrueth in this thing , seing their were diuers Brethren their and all vvitnesse except one man , that they did nothing , but desired the elder that in the writing of the letter that hee should be carefull to keepe to the true meaning and minde of the Church : in that their sentence and the reason why they did so desir him vvas because as they told the elder that some of those fevv contrary minded brethren did pervert the Churches meaning alredy : and that one which indeuoured to seeke and make matter about this meeting , yet in the publique when the thing was in question hee confessed and sayd , that their vvas nothing done or concluded by the brethren . Now this man being one that was present , and also being very willing to condemne the brethren , if he could haue don it , yet hee thus confessing , and all the brethren testifying as before is sayd , and denieth Mr. S. accusation , and Mr. S. hath bin told of these things although hee hath thus written : and doth hee not know , that if a thing bee denyed by on man , in any acte done that hee is accused of that one I say cannot be condemned , but by the mouth of tvvo constant witnesses : how then is this man guiltles which vvould condemne many , and yet not hauing one constant witnesse : & for that which hee saith the elder bringing the letter was blamed for writing contrary to the Churches joint agreement , and his owne promise would not hee make the reader beleeve that the Church blamed the elder ; because their agreement was altered an that therfore the letter was tourned backe again : But vvas it not hee that blamed the elder , and the other three brethren that stod with him , for their vvas no more at that time that I can remember : But for the Church they knew their ovvne minde and excepted of it as their owne minde to condemne the Couenant . But because M. S. and another were produced for witnesse , and hee refused it and sayd the other vvould not do it neither : therfor was it willed the elder to put that thing out : and this was the tourning back of the letter . But hovv collerable doth hee sett it dovvne to make it fayer for his porpose : much like the diuells ancient oracle vvhich might 〈◊〉 tourned tvvo vvayes , for hee telleth the reader , it was blamed , but hee telleth not by whome it was blamed , hee saith it vvas tourned backe : But hee telleth not vvherfore the Church tourned it backe : & wher hee saith , that the elder vvas vvilled to writ the first peacable agreement : it may be hee might so plead or so speake , but that the Church did so , it is not true : But as befor it hath bin signified , and why doth hee thus : is it not because hee would haue the reader to vnderstand it vvas because his errour vvas condemned which in deed vvas not so : and I am persuaded hee dares not say otherwayes although hee hath thus written . But their is one thing more to be spoken of : which is that hee and some with him , would bear vs downe : that the Church did not condemne the Couenant at the first , but left it vnjudged : to this I answer divers things briefly , & first I suppose that hee knoweth , that vpon his clamours and some vvith him that then the sentence of the Church was called , vvhich gaue their sentence : that they condemned the Couenant the first daye : 2. his ovvne friends vvhich as hee sayd witnessed for him : they I say tourning their mindes about towards Mr. S. they made 6. or 7. vveekes contention , saying that the Churches sentence vvas altered , and vvhy , sayd they , because the word false was added in the letter : therefore sayd they the Church condemned the Couenant sufficiently by other words . But the vvord false was auoyded for offence sake : thus it went on 6. or 7. weekes till the letter was looked into , and then it vvas found that the word false was not their . But to the thing in hād this is the testimony of his owne friends , but that which wee say or his ovvne friends haue sayd is nothing with him for hee will goe one needlesly to endlesse contention , 3. needlesse I say , for if it had bin as hee sayeth that the Church had not condemned the Couenant the first day , because they vvould not offend those few brethren : if then those few brethren , made an euill vs of it : I hope the Church had power to condemne it , afterwards for their owne preseruation both of their membres , and of the trueth : and who compelled the Church to consent : vvas it not because it was their ovvne minde to condemne the Couenant . But had the Church don as hee saith in that thing : then I say had hee done as the Prophet saith to lay a snar in Mizpha . 4. lett not him thinke that this Samaritanest Couenant should haue that priviledge which circoncision had which was the Lords seale of old to be laid downe in honnour , yet when it was abused , the Apostell left the vse thereof , and vvould not giue place for one hower : but is it a thing lickly that when the elder brought the letter to reade it , being but a weeke betweene that none of the Church could minde that the sentence vvas altered , but hee & them fevv vvith him for hee knovvs their is freedom of exception to ●…ll , but one thing more is to be obserued concerning the difference betvveene the dealing of this men , and those brethren vvhom hee accuseth in that meeting , for vvhen his matter vvas in the publique hee refused to debat the matter , but vvould haue it tourned to priuate , but those brethren whom hee accuseth , did not only lay dovvn vvhat they did in that their meeting , but offered themselfes to the triall of all that if any could shevv it to be otherwayes they should do it : and not only once , but divers times vvas this in question and allwayes they offering themselfes to triall . And vvhereas hee speaketh of a thing yet worse , for either the elder alone or these priuy counsellers vvith him , stod not to this secōd agreement the Church made , but vvrote another with alteration , addition , and diminishing : besides the Churches knowledge and consent , and sent it for the churchs minde and act . Answer first , vvher hee speaketh of the second agreement , I knovv but one agreement , tvvise spoken of , and the occasion is manifested before , tvvo if the alteration which hee speaketh of , had bin by him sett dovvne : then it may be it would appeare to be , but that vvhich hee had commission from the Church to doe , as he himselfe granteth in some thing , but vvheras hee speaketh of adding and diminishing , these things are yet to proue , for I knovv not of any such thing : neither any man that I knovv of did see the letter or gaue any counsell concerning it , after it cam from the publique , but the elder himselfe . But vvheras hee saith that they were cast out vpon a very suspicion that a fevv of them met to writ to contradict the Churches action . Answer , I can not but marueil at him , that hee should thus ran into this vntruth to say that it vvas but suspicion , did not hee himselfe confesse , yea of himselfe manifest , both to the elder , and also to others before it came to the Church besides some that heard the letter reade , and I hope hee dares not deny . But that hee did grante in the publique in the generall , that his letter was the apposing of the letter of the Church , although hee would not in the particulars debat the matters . And after hee vvas cast out hee sayd , vvhat did hee , but take avvay the erronist grounds vvhich Mr. Delaycluce vvrit in the letter : and therfore he thinking his errour is a trueth , it may be hee thinketh so to deceiue the reader , so likevvise hee calleth the laying dovvne of the matter in the Church the false information of the elder , and that tvvo of them vvere singled out , and selected from the rest . First I ansvver , vvhat doth hee call the false information of the elder , I hope hee knoweth that both himselfe , & to other vvith him did manifeste to the elder themselses that they had vvritten in opposition to the Church , and so consequently contrary to that trueth , vvhich the Church maintained in the letter : vvas it not this that the elder informed the Church of , hee also saith that tvvo vvere singled out from the rest , in vvhich hee vvould giue the reader to vnderstand , as if all that those tvvo had got to their meeting , vvere at the first knowne vvheras in deed it vvas othervvayes : for although it was knovvne that they had a meeting to that porpose , yet euery particular person vvas not then knowne , but those tvvo opposites made knowne themselses to the elder of the Church pretending to him as if they vvould submit it to correction : the elder refused to meddle vvith it himselfe , but told them that it parteined to the Church ; they consented to haue it come to the church , but vvhen it vvas propounded and laid downe their , then they refused to answer or to debat the matter , nor yet to deliuer vp the letter : and the reason that they pretended vvas , because the elder in the laying dovvne of the matter sayd that that vvhich they had done vvas a thing of an euill nott , and vvas this a sufficient reason to refuse to debat the matter : vvhat i●… the elder had done like Moses Numb . 32. ●…4 . or like the messenger of the Church , Iosua 22. 18. or like Ely 1. Sam. 1. 14. all these vvere directly charged vvith heauy charges and they vvere cleare , yet did they Christi●…lik debat their matters , & cleared themselues , but these opposites ●…ere , but touched & presently they kiked , and so fullfilled the common prouerb that agalled horse backe is soon harte : but they ought rather to haue approued themselse or to haue submitted themselues to the meanes to come out of their sinne , as Dauid saith Psalm ▪ 141. 5. Let the righteous smite mee , it shall be a kindnes : and let him reproue mee , it shall be an excellent oyle which shall not breake my head . Wher was their pretended committing it to correction when vpon so little occasion they refused triall in the ●…ght place where it should be tried . And for that speech which hee saith the informer speake that it might be holy , just & good : for ought hee knew , this was a speech spoken to prouoque him to ansvver ●…hilles they were a reasoning together . And the best of vs may escape words some times in reasoning that will not stand : yet is not this man the clearer for all that . But wher hee saith that the matter was follovved by interrogatories to finde out sinne . Answer : sinne was found when his vnrestynes in his errour was found , and this being novv manifested , and layd dovvn to the Church , wee needed not make much cerching to find the sinne , but rather to vse the best meanes wee could to draw them out of their sinne which then did appeare : and hovv could this be done , but their must be questiōs or demandes , or as hee termeth them interrogatories , and a little after hee calleth them intraping demandes , but hee must not shifte the thing so , for did not hee alltogether refuse to debat the matter in the publique , saying they were not according to the rull Matth. 18. dealt with all , therfore they refused to debat the matter in the publique , and hee knoweth vvell , that when any is asked a question , that is not meet or reasonable they may , and doe refuse to ansvver , and so might hee have done if hee could haue shevved vnlawfull questions , but in that hee did refuse alltogether to answer or to debat , the matter therin was their sinne of opposing of gouernment , and hovv contrary vvere they in this to the seruants of God of old : Numb . 32. 14. 15. 16. Iosua 22. 21. Who although they were charged with heauy charges and had not sinned , yet they ansvvered and cleared themselues . But these although they had sinned , yet they refused to debat or to ansvver , and neglected the meanes to come out of their sinne : and for his saying it vvas contrary to Matth. 18. I refer the reader to the ansvver of his postscript . Hee saith that they were cast out without knowledge of sinnes , & also that they protested solemnly they had neither don the thing so suspected nor intended it . Ansvver , I still except against his word suspected , for the thing was plainly layd vpon them : for although at the first it was caried vvith a●…low and safte vvords , saying that it vvas a thing of an euill nott , and that they ought to answer euen to apparences of euill in such publique matters of the Church as this was , and seing they did run vnto such an action , they ought to answer , and to that end vvas Iosua 22. and 1. Thes. 5. 22. brought the one shewing that Christians ought to keepe themselues from apparances of euill : the other Scripture shewing that if a Christian doth any thing that seemeth contrary to the Law of God , they ought to cleare themselues , and to this was added Actes 11. wh●… Petter cleared himselfe , but all this could not persuad them to ansvver and to debat the matter , so when they still refused : their sinne was condemned by Ephes. 4. 3. 4. and 1. Cor. 3. 3. and other Scriptures , and by these Scriptures was their factious or vnlawfull meeting condemned as their refusall too ansvver vvas condemned , as befor is shewed : so then sinne was knowne before they vvere cast out : but what is that vvhich hee protested they had neither done nor intended it befor I haue shewed hovv they opposed the Church in the trueth , in that their vnlavvfull meeting , to the vvhich I ad this : they that maintaine an errour doe sinne Reu. 2. 14. they that seduce to errour doth sinne vers . 20. they that sequester apart of the church against the church , the church maintaining the trueth doth sinne Rom. 1●… . 17. and all this did they in that meeting , therfore when wee knew of their meeting to conferme that letter : vvee knew that all this vvas by them committed : but it may be hee will excepte , and say that the thing vvas not so layd downe to them at the first as now I doe , that is true , but were not they the cause of that that it was not , seing they refused to debat , the matter or to answer as I haue shewed therefore the sinne was condemned in the generalls , as I shewed before . But hovv shall wee vnderstand his protestation concerning his intendement , it may bee hee did not intend any euill , & why because hee minded it to be good , & for the trueth : but wee meddle not with his intendement , but with his action . Petter though hee intended good when hee parsuaded the Lord Iesus not to suffer at Ierusalem . But therin hee was an instrument of Satan to ouerthrow the saluation of all Gods electe , if Satan could haue preuailed by him , and as Petter good intend could not beare him out , seeing his deed was euill , yea although it was his ignorance , so will not his good intend helpe him , seing his deed vvas euill : Hee goeth one vvith many clamours after his manner , to the which I haue giuen some ansvver before . But where hee chargeth vs vvith partiallity for spearing of scandallous euills least our euill combination , should be weakned discouered or broken . Answer , if all that ●…ich this man saith were true , it might make vs appeare euill in the eyes of men : to the which end hee settes it out : that hee might coller his owne euills , but wee must minde it to be the fruites of his loue , and his loue token thus to do , for hee hath told vs in the beginning of his booke that therefore hee hath sett out Mr. Answorths sermon . But would hee haue done Mr. Answorth that injury , but vpon this occasion hee might also power out his malice against vs : but to the thing in hand , I considered in my selfe what hee did meane by those scandalous euills , but I could not minde what hee aimed at , so I asked M. S. vvhat hee did meane by these scandallous sinnes hee speake of in his booke , but hee shifted mee of and would not tell mee ; now what dealing is this that a man vvill sett out to the world such reproches , and refuse to manifest them to one that might vse meanes to helpe them , if their bee any : but let honnest men judge of this his doings . Hee saith further that irregular proceedings haue made our brethren in all places to hange downe their heads , and hee saith wee haue bin plainly certified from sundry churches . Ansvver that wee haue bin so certified from sundry churches , I know no such thing . But it is his manner if on man let a word fall , hee will apply it to all , as see the answer to his Postscript : now true it is , that one Church which receiued him to them by his Samaritanesh Couenant , they in deed do take his part or else they must condemne themselues , but for any more I knovv not any : But if it were so , it would not make him cleare in his matter ; therfore let him leaue these clamours , and stand to the cause in differance , that ●…o hee may either approue himselfe or fall vnder it . And wheras hee saith now for these , and the like offences diuers that were of vs turn the backe vpon vs , and betake themselues to liue at large , as if now the dore of indifferency or libertinisme were sett open , that it matters not whome they heare or wher they walke . THE COVENANT EXAMINED . ANSWER . BUt can hee spy the liuing at large of diuers that haue receiued the ●…rueth which novv haue declined , and can hee finde no other occasion vvhich they take for their stumbling , but those things which hee speaketh of : for those vvhich hee hath set down , I refere the reader to the answer giuen , but I can nam some friend of his , who hath rathe●… opened the dore of indifferances wherby many hath taken occasion to decline . But first I say to him , is not hee the man himselfe , which hath made a pathe way for such libertins in the maintaining of that Coue nant of desemblation in the which hee vvould bring light and darknes in to one habitation , in that hee vvould make vs beleeue that antichristians neuer leauing their antichristian estat , are sit matter for to make a true Couenant with God , and that they can make a true Couenant , and so become visible Christians , & not only so , but also daily practise their pretended Couenant and keepe their communion in their antichristian assemblies vvhose in deed they are , if these be not the right Samaritanes in their practise then let the indifferant judge : But hovv contrary is this vnto the Scriptures , Matth. 3. 6. 2. Cor. 6. 14. 17. 18. Re●… . 18. 4. which showeth vnto vs : that God doth receiue vs into Communion vpon this condition , to come out , and to separat from the false vvayes of the vvorld and least our corrupt flesh should put differant , and so take an occasion to continue in any one false vvay more then another , therefore saith the Holy Ghost , and touch no vncleane thing and I will receiue you , and I vvill be a father vnto you , and yee shall be my sones and daughters , saith the Lord almighty . If the Lord hath made this condition , as it is cleare hee hath , who should not feare to plead the contrary or so to practise : moreouer did not they that were baptized confesse their sinnes . Matth. 3. 6. And vvas not baptisme to them in the true Church are newing of their Couenant in Christ then come , and they that were not in the true Church before did they not enter into a Couenant with God in Christ , vvhen they were baptized , and was it not don vnto all vpon the confession of their sinnes ? how comes it to passe then that these men before named beeing vnseparated , and vvalking in their publique sinnes should be pleaded for to be sufficient Couenant makers , & that they haue made a true Couenant with God , let not any thinke that this distinction will helpe them in this cause to say that they walke in the trueth , so far as they see or vnderstand : suerly this is a very crooked , and a vneuen measur to measure our obedience vnto our creatour . But should the commandements of the blessed God bee limited , and bounded vnto the blind vnderstanding of sinfull man , or as if the spirit of God had not lefte sufficient derection vnto vs , either hovv far or with whome to walke in such publique matters of religion , in the which these antichristian idolaters haue lesse to say for themselues then those their predecessors which were before them Exodus 32. which when they made the calfe they had not the Lords order or direction , for the Lords ●…ublique worship as yet giuen vnto them : and therefor they ran into that greuious sin : Moyses staying long away as verse the 1. showeth : But the Lord hath not only giuen plaine order , and rulles in his vvord to these men : but also hath raised many faithfull witnesses , both by voice , and also by bookes to shovv the wayes of God , and to declare their sinne vvhich they neglect , & also reject : but to come too this man vvho prepareth this pathe way in the maintaining of this Couenant , hovv easie is it for Sattan to preuaile with any being possessed vvith this errour whether they be in the false Church then their to vvalke in this way of dessemblation , and thinke to blesse themselues as Naaman did 2. Kings 5. 17. with two mules load of earth thinking to serue the Lord in the land of Sirian , and that hee needed not to trouble himselfe to go to Ierusalem : but this being contrary to the commandemēt of God , Deut. 12. 13. 14. and the Prophet seeing it : and also his soddan and confused motions vvhich allthough hee professed not to sacrifices to any other God saue only to the Lord. But yet hee proposed and professed to bow down in the house of Rimmon his masters God , and for that hee vvould aske pardon befor hee did it : now I say the Prophet seeing his sodden , and confused motion bid him go in peace , that is so much as say , far yee well : as if the Prophet saw it not fit to resolue his doubtes , nor to direct him to go to Ierusalem where the true place of vvorship vvas : and are not these Couenantmakers much like vnto him , who in their confused motions or considerations , thinke they need not to leaue or forsake their antichristian estat . But their to remaine , & thinke to blesse themselues by a sequestered meeting from their brethren the antichristians on part of the day , and to communicat with them the other part of the day : but do these men thinke that by sequestering themselues from their brethren to change their cōdition . Oh no , for as the Prophet showeth Haggi 2. 14. that if a polluted person touch any hollowed thing , he is so far from making himselfe cleane therby , that hee maketh the holy thing vncleane , and so not acceptable : whervpon it vvill follovv that their priuat gathering together , and taking to themselues the ordinances of God is so far from sanctifying of them , that they polut the holy things of God , whilles they stād in 〈◊〉 antichristian estat : or doe they thinke they are the nearer to the Lord by vsing of vvords to make a Couenant , they remaining in their antichristian estat , no allthough they do it with great zeale and oath , yet it helpeth them not , as the Prophet saith , Hosea 10. 4. They haue spoken vvords swering falsly in making a Couenant : neither lett them thinke , that it is a lowable for them to sett vp a ministery in that estat : for as it was sayd vnto their predecessor Esra . 4. 3. it is not for you , but for vs to build the house vnto our God : and if the Lord did so detest the old Babylon vvhich was , but the tipe of this antichristian Babylon that their should not be a ston taken , Ierem. 51. 26. neither for corner nor for foundation , vvho should not be afeard to mannag the stones of this spirituall Babylone , to bee ●…it matter for the Lords house . But hovv doe these men blesse themselues some thing like vnto Michah Iudges 17. 13. who being in his idolatry sayd , I knovv that the Lord will be good vnto mee , seeing I haue a Leuit to my preist . So these men standing in their antichristian estat , thinke themselues vvell now , seeing they haue imitated the order of the church of God in their priuat meetings . But that it may the better appeare that these are the right successors of the Samaritanes , I vvil compare them together . First the Samaritanes they toke it one them to serue the Lord , 2. Kings 17. 33. But they serued their idoles also . So these Couenantmakers they toke it on or pretended to serue the Lord in their sequestered priuat meetings from their brethren the antichristians , and so pretended to set vp the Lords ordinances , but with all they would not forsake the antichristian estat , but walk in both together , and so continue as the Samaritanes did . 2. The Samaritanes thus abiding in their confusion or mixed religion , yet when the people of God retourned out of captiuitie they presented themselues , vnto them to be in vnion and communion , and profered to build with them , testifying that they did seeke the Lord their God as they did , saying also that they had Esra 4. 2. sacrificed vnto him from their first planting in Samaria : So likewise these men although abiding in their mixed religion and confusion , yet esteeme it to be the true way of God , and would be esteemed : of those that are separated to be their brethren , and professe their way and course to be the building vp of the house of God ; taking vpon them the name of a true Church . 3. Although these Samaritanes were not accepted , but refused , yet did som of them indirectly creept into communion with the people of God : So some of these creept into communion indirectly , pretending that vvhich they were not , in the which this man was the chiefe , first as I haue before showed when hee creept into Mr. Lees people into their communion , and after that cam ouer heare , and vvould haue had communion with vs : but hee seeing himselfe to haue resistance heare , after this hee vvent to Leyden , and creept into that Church , and so made of them a bridge to git in vnto vs. 4. The Samaritanes in their corrupt estat fathered themselues vpon the ancient Patriarches of the Church , Iohn 4. 12. 20. and contended with the true Church as hauing the trueth with them : So likewise these account their mixed estat to be the true vvay of God , and condemne vs for vvholly separating from the false Church : and contend vvith vs for it . 5. Although these Samaritanes vvere thus corrupt in their estat , yet had they attained vnto the chiefe pointes of faith concerning the Messias , as may appeare by the speech of the Woman Iohn 4. 25. vvhich vvas one not stricke in life , vers . 18. & conuersation , I say , if shee vvhich vvas but a Woman , could say so much , what may wee thinke was amongst the other Samaritanes ; and also wee may see how redily they receiued Christ , as vers . 39. & 42. showeth , and yet for all those points of Doctrine which they had receiued , notwithstanding they were condemned by our Sauiour Christ , Iohn 4. 22. as worshipping they knew not what : which teacheth vs how to judge , and esteeme of such mixed religions . And now these Couenantmakers allthough they agree with vs in the chiefe pointes of faith , yet seeing they continue in their corrupt estat , being vnseparated from the false Church , wee are taught of Christ how to esteeme of them , and so leaue them to be the successors of the Samaritanes , and their right heires . Now this is the Couenant which Mr. S. maintaineth , and for the which hee so bestored himselfe when it was condemned : and doth not hee lay afar ground to keepe men in the way of desemblation , and so to remaine in the false Church by the maintaining of this Couenant : yee , & to be a snare to such as haue left them , if once they be possessed , with this errour , and let vs take himselfe for an example , for although hee had left the Church of England , both as it was a nationall Church , and also the Parishes holding , both to be false , and being come so far reason should haue taught him , neuer to haue to doe with such a Samaritanesh people againe in Church communion , seeing they remain●… as they did vnseparated : yet since hee was cast out from vs , hee went and had communion with them , and baptized his child with them also : and vvhy went hee not rather to the assemblies , seeing that that is their most proper Church estat , they being yet vnseparated , and for that their priuat meetings it is , but a schisme in Babell , & in that their doing they make a breach in both estats , both in their antichristian estat , and in their pretended seruing of the Lord , 2. Kings 17. 33. 34. as the Holy Ghost testifieth of their predecessor . And further I say to him concerning ●…is clamours , who of our Church hath tourned their backe vpon vs excepte those which hee is the cause of about these troubles in question , vvhich hee through much labouring , and others with him hath inticed : but if hee meaneth those of the Church of Leyden , which hath declined or apostated , is it not more probabell or rather to plane that they haue taken their ground from Mr. Ro. their Pastour which hath opened so many pathe wayes : for them first in setting out a book for priuat communion vvith the members of the false Church , 2. in the maintining of hearing in the assemblies to be no communion , 3. in the maintaining of this Samaritanesh Couenant : 4. in that booke called Apologie , hee doth not only vvith smoth vvords darken the trueth , vvhich formarly hee * maintained . But also hee saith plainly speaking of the Church of England in the 58. page , * and hee speaketh it in the name of the Church of whom hee is Pastor : that their faith doth not consist in the cōdemning of others , & wiping their names out of the bead roull of Churches . And a little after hee saith : neither requier vvee of any ours in the confession of their faith that they either renounce or in one vvord contest vvith the Church of England : in this it appeareth that hee is ashamed , and runeth from separation , and of this his alteration hath the aduersaries of the trueth taken nottise of , long before this last book came out so as I. P. saith , * speaking of his book , called the justification of separation . Which hee sett out in the defence of the trueth , it being a good vvorke , yet thus hee speaketh of Mr. Rob. concerning it that hee openly pluckes out some of the bowells therof vvith his owne hands , and now seeing this is so , why doth this man indeuour to lay the fault vpon vs : which withstand these errours , and therfore wee are of him , and them euill spoken of : but as it is vsually seen that such as run from their masters do speake euill of them , so such as decline , do speake euill of them that oppose them : & therfore lett none merueill that wee are euill spoken of by Mr. S. and by those that assist him , for it hath bin thus allwayes with the Lords people in former times , yea euen the Apostells of our Lord Jesus hath thus bin dealth withall : and now to these opposites I speak , wheras one of them twoo hertofor hath spoken to this effect , that if the Couenant could be desproued , that then they ought to acknowledge their euill in the things , for the vvhich they were cast out : and although but one of them speake it , yet seing hee speak the trueth , and as it ought to be therfor , I wish them both to consider it , and for vs if the Lord giue repentances vnto them wee shall be glad , and hould our armes open to receiue them : but alas vvhat hope is their of it , seeing this man hath so many times imitated the practise of Absolom vvhich vvent in to his fathers concubins , that so all should haue no hope of reconciliation between them : so the third time hath hee printed his contention to the world , as if hee did meane to continue an adversary , and therfore by these hee bideth battell : but if his cause were better then it is , yet great is the euill hee doth therin in causing the name of the Lord to be scandelled . Another pathe way which hee maketh for libertines is in the maintaining of his refusing , to answer which is before spoken of , by vvhich president of his wee see the euill effect that hath followed , for suerly by his example the lo●…se ones of the Church , and such as are corrupted begin to oppose that diligent watch as ought to be keept in the Lords house , and with his example , and his bussie writing , and printing , and priuate corrupting of mens minds labouring to corrupt all that hee thinketh , hee can worke vpon as by experiance wee haue seene , and in deed not keeping to the things as they are , as I haue showed before . Therefore that his sin in this point may the better appeare , I will briefly declare , and distingest betvveen priuat and publique matters , and then apply his cause vnto that which it appertaineth vnto . First I find in the Scripture that the Lord both vnder the law , also in this time of the Gospell did so prouide , that all his people should bee preserued from giuing themselues liberty to sinne , both sins of priuat nature , and also of publique : the generall of this I find in Leuit. 19. 17. which serueth either for publique or priuat , the words are these : Thou shall not hate they brother in thine hart , but thou shalt plainly rebucke they neighbour ▪ & suffer him not to sinne . 2. Obserue if the sinne be of priuat natur●… and committed priuate to the knowledge , but of one brother , then is that brother bound in priuat to shew the sinner his sin : and if hee hear and repent , their it must stay , and go no further : Matth. 18. 15. and Prou. 25. 9. because hee is wone and a sinner conuerted from going a stray , and a soule saued from death ●…ames 5. 20. Now I purpose not hear to speake of all the degrees of dealing for sin : but only out of the Scripture to show that which siteth the present purpose in hand . Therfore 3. in the next place obserue that some sinnes that are priuatly cōmitted , are not priuatly to be ended by that one that knoweth it , as for example the intiser to idolatry Deut. 13. 6. And also the committer of idolatry Deut. 17. 2. 3. which sinnes the Lord would not haue keept secret , Deut. 13. 8. and which sinnes was , and is the pleasure of the Eternall that they should not be keept secret , because hee would haue his people keept in their obedience vnto him as it is most reason they should aboue all things , and to preserue his trueth : and for the preseruation of his people , and therefor the sinner was to be brought forth that his people should hear and feare , and do no more such wickednes Deut. 13. 11. compared with 1. Timoth. 5. 20. and as in these transgressions the publique Church is to see the end therof . 4. So likewise concerning the breach of the ordinances that God gaue to the Church , that they parteine to the generall to looke vnto as vvee may see in Actes 11. 2. for hauing but heard that Petter had eatten vvith some vncircumcised , they thought hee had broken the ordinances , and therfore not knowing of his vvarrant they looked vnto it , & receiued his answer , yet vvas this done in a priuat house far of them , to wit , in Cesaria . 5. Likewise for doctrine vvhen any is maintained which is against the faith in the generall , or against the ordinances pertaining to the Churches , this also belongeth to the publique assemblie to looke vnto , as wee may see in Actes 21. 22. in the speech of the elders vnto Paule , which although their went a false report of him that hee taught the Iewes that were amongst the Gentills to forsake Moyses , yet wee see vpon that reporte they had right to come together to be satisfied how it should stand , but that it was preuented by Gods prouidence another way . Novv these examples I hope will be sufficient for the thing in hand : And now therefore I will compare his sinne with such of these causes as be of like nature . First therfore his factious meeting agreeth with the inticer to idolatry , Deut. 13. 6. in that hee indeuoured to corrupt the mindes of the brethren to that his errour before proued . 2. How doe these twoo examples reproue his refusing to answer , for neither of them had committed sinne , yet had the publique right to hear the things cleared , yee although they were the Apostells of Christ , but this man maintained an errour in that his factious meeting , and such an errour which being receiued openeth a vvay to libertins , and destroyeth separation : and should not this belong vnto the publique to looke vnto and as a publique thing : if it be sayd their factious meeting vvas gathered in a priuat house , was not Petters action don in a priuat house also , and that far of from them of Ierusalem ? therefore such things as these must not be limited , to a priuat dealing . 3. Obserue : hovv this had relation to the publique naturally , for first it vvas the errour vvhich the Church did beare with him in and therfore hee was to keepe his judgment to himselfe , and not to corrupt other their with , also it being in the Church , and the Church hauing condemned the Couenant : one of them tvvo professed to write : but presently the elder gaue them to vnderstand , that if they did that then they must answer it : and in deed is it a thing reasonable that that vvhich vvas publique , and communicated vnto all the whole body that one or two men should gather apart of the church to possesse their mindes against the Church ; the Church maintaining the trueth : or in common reason should not the Church knovv vvhat they did i●… way of opposing in that their letter , seeing they had seene , and knowne all that the Church had don , suerly hee layeth vpon some to be many masters , but in this they caried themselues as if they were the Churches masters : and I suppose they would haue taken it to be very euill in the Church to haue keept them out of the meeting , and not to let them know what the Church did in that bussines : but they were presente as reason they should , and did disput to the vttermost of their power : but what would these men haue vs to thinke of their doing , vnlesse they would haue vs , thinke that they haue a priuiledge aboue others , if they haue then , let them shew it vnto vs : but I suppose they can show no priuiledge or true reason : for as all things of priuat nature may not be made publique without due order , so likewise that vvhich is of publique natur , and is in the publique , ought not to be opposed , and contredicted in the priuat in vnderhand dealing . But that they ought , and should be redy to shevv vvhat they do in such things , of such nature as this is : and wheras hee thus saith concerning Pastour and teacher : but what hope of euer such vvorthies coming in when their is such an hideous noise in the house by such vnruly masters , which cruelly smit some wound others , and cast their deare brethren out at the windowes . Answer , such worthies as hee speaketh of , I hope through the mercy of God , when the Lord calleth them , will not be stayed , neither by such suttell oppossares as hee is knowing that in the Apostells dayes , and in all ages the Churchs hath bin troubled with such , nor yet with the weaknes or sinnes , which breake forth in the Church : for all ought to know that the Churchs of Christ , are subject to faile as no doubte , but wee doe in our best actions , but are these things true which hee speaketh , of smiting & wounding , and casting our deare brethren out at the vvindowes , I hope hee meaneth himselfe specially for one that is so dealt withall : novv for the matter of his casting out , I haue before shewed , and for the manner of his casting out , hovv can hee tearme it , a cast out at the windowes , seeing it vvas done by the free consent of the Church : yea and those vvhom hee now saith witnesse for them , did not only consente , but some of them hastened the elder to cast them forth , and then their owne alliance had not to speake for them : therfore if his cause had bin good against the Church as it is not , yet might hee not so to haue written : for is not the going in or the casting out at the window , opposit to the going in or casting out at the dor , as wee may see in Iohn 10. 1. and is their any planner manner of proceding then by the free consent of the Church either to receiue in or to cast out : and was not the incestious person so cast out 1. Cor. 5. 4. yea and so was Mr. S. cast out by this Church , and therfore cast out at the dore , and not at the window . And wheras he saith that vvee haue been bold to vent our worst , wee could imagine against him vpon all occasion , how is this true that hee saith when a●… wee let him alone so many yeares , although hee hath don vs great injury , and that in printe as before I haue showed , and much more I could shew , if I were of his disposition . But what shall a man git by such things , but rather deshonner the Lord , and the trueth , and therfore I let many of his clamours alone vnanswered , because I judge it not wisdome to contend in such vaine contention , being greeued that I am occasioned to doe so much as I haue done by him ; further hee saith ●…nd for your presumptuous determining my Eternall estat , the Lord for giue you . Answer , Hee vvould make the reader beleeue that wee judge him a cast away , and that no repentance shall be giuen to him of God : but hovv euilly doth hee deale in this thing , it appeareth thus , Mr. S. after hee vvas cast out yet came hee ordinarily euery Lords day a great whille and troubled vs very much with heauy contention , wher vpon as I to my best remembrance hard a brother say , that it was doubtfull to him whether hee did not sinne against the Holy Ghost in that his doings : novv if the brother had spoken neuer so absolut , yet vvas hee but one man , why doth Mr. S. speake as if it were the generall ; but this is his manner : vvill I do desir that the Lord vvill giue him grace to shovv the contrary by repentance , but what an idle thing is this that hee will print such a thing as this : this vvas but a speech spoken by one man , and hee showing his judgment vpon Mr. S. euill cariages then present and also before ; what may a vvise man thinke of this man , how hee straineth other things for his porpose , seeing in this hee dealeth so euilly : for to sett downe one mans speech in such tearmes as hee that readeth , may thinke it vvas the generall : and novv I haue answered his Preface , wherin I haue lett alone diuers of his clamours , and admonissions , for these reasons follovvings first his clamours and admonissions do return vpon himselfe , his grounds being taken avvay , and so hee being answered in the main differances . 2. I am vnvvilling to follovv a man of his disposition in such idle contention in clamours and reproches , and in laying open of the infirmities of men to the vvorld , for I haue learned of Dauid not to tell of such things in Gath , nor to publish it in the streets of Ashekelon , lest the daughters of the Philistians rejoyce : & I could haue rewarded him the like , but I spare such things , and I am greeued that by him I was prouoked to speake that little I haue done , but I could not vvell auoid it : let the indifferant Reader judge . 3. If I should go one vvith him in such vnprofitable strife , vvho vvould respect to reade it , but to cry the trueth out in the maine things indifferant , may bee profitable to them that haue a loue vnto the trueth ; and novv to ansvver to Mr. S. Postscript to the brethren absent , in the vvhich hee should haue had more care to sett dovvne the trueth of things as they are , seeing hee meant to send abroad his vnprofitable writings . Brethren it may hapely seem strang to you , that the people hear complained of , should be so irregular in their proceedings , and so singular as to reject the helpe of all , but since they had their reasons , I thought it requisite to giue them their due herein , the reason why they proceded not by the rulle Matth. 18. vvas because in this cause they had nothing to doe with it , but vvith Iosua 22. and 1. Thess. 5. 22. Ansvver , I say contrary to him that wee refuse not the helpe of any as their is just occasion , and therefore wee haue & do still professe , that if any Church or Christian can show vs vvherin wee sinne in any thing , vvee are redy to heare them , but for this poinct see the Answer to his Preface , vvher hee chargeth vs for rejecting of our 3●… . Article , but let the Reader obserue , hovv hee doeth skoffe vvith his ovvne abusing of vs , first obserue that hee vvould take away strange conceites out of the mindes of the absent brethren , by the giuen to vs our due in the shovving to them our reasons , which reasons hee mindes to bee very vnsufficient for the bussines in hand . Answer , and so do I minde also as hee settes them downe : therefore I vvill obserue his doings , first where hee saith the reason vvhy vvee proceded not by the rull Matth. 18. vvas because in this cause they had nothing to do vvith it . Answer , but is this all that wee haue sayd , haue wee not showed wherin wee had to do also vvith Matth. 18. in this bussines , for that rull hath three degrees , the first , the second , & the third , & their is no sin handled in the Church , which is not comprehended in this rull , and this wee hold which is contrary to that that hee hath sett downe , wheras hee saith ; but with Iosua 22. and 1. Thess. 5. 22. hear wee are greatly abused also , for although Iosua 22. is effectuall for the bussines in hand , as after I shall show , yet that in the Thesalo . is not of waighte for that hee settes it downe , neither vvas it to that end brought ; those Scriptures was aledged to him in the publique when hee refused to debat the matter , the one prouing that Christians ought to abstaine from all apparences of euill , but seeing he had run into it , this Scripture being compared vvith Iosua 22. they proue that Christians ought to cleare themselues in such like causes as that vvas , and as their example reproueth them that vvould not follovv it , so likewise is the example of the Church of Israell an example and rull for all Churches , to keepe the watch of the Lord , that his publique ordinances should not bee broken also . Wee find the like example in Actes 11. wher Peter submitted himselfe to the brethren at Jerusalem , clearing himselfe and showed his warrant , that hee vvas sent of God : and now to ratifie to the consciences of all these Scripture alledged , looke in the Phil. 3. 17. which sayeth ; Brethren bee followers together of mee : and marke them which walke so as you haue vs for an example . Now the Apostells , I hope , their writings are the commandements of the Lord : Who ought not to bee afraid to practise the contrary : novv I say these Scriptures agree with Matth. 18. concerning all publique matters in the 3. place : therefore when that was spoken by one , that wee had not to doe in this cause with Matth. 18. it was to bee vnderstood concerning priuat sinnes , and of priuate nature : therfore when wee saw how hee peruerted that parties meaning , then there were other answeres giuen to cleare it , as I haue showed : if he hath giuen to vs our due in this , let the Brethren judge : and wher hee saith and the reason why they reject all others helpe , was because they sayd they were contrary to all men . Answer , for rejecting of helpe I haue answered before , but lett it bee obserued how euilly hee dealeth hear vvith vs , first hee saith , they sayd and hee knoweth it vvas but one mans speech , and therfore if it hath bin altogether a mise spoken , yet vvas it not the Churches : for hee knoweth that nothing is the Churches , but that which is taken by voice or consent vvith a space of silence : and that is to be reckoned the Churches acte , and hee hath bin told of this oftentimes , and yet both hear , and in other places hee thus abuseth vs , moreouer although the words were not formable , and therfore not proper , yet hee knew his meaning vvhich vvas that all those vvhich he stod to haue to judge of his cause , were contrary to vs in this bussines : But to show his euill dealing , let it be obserued that hee quoteth the 1. Thess. 2. 15. wher the Apostell saith of the Jevves vvho both killed the Lord Iesus , and their owne Prophetes , and haue persecuted vs away , and God they please not , and are contrary to all men . Now his quoting of this Scripture to his speech , before spoken of , and showing no reason or distinction , should not men vnderstand that that should bee our also ; novv obserue first hee taketh hold of on mans speech , and maketh that the Churches . Secondly hee quoteth a Scripture at his ovvne pleasure , and that must bee our also : is this to giue vs or due , then let the Brethren judge . Hee saith thus , I refer my selfe to the indifferante presente , vvhether I haue not sett downe their offences sparingly . Answer , by the Replie that is giuen now vnto you , let the indifferant reader judge whether you haue not spoken laifeshly and very euill doing wrong vnto your neighbours , & vnto the trueth by causing a scandall by your vnprofitable writing , and now lett the brethren judge between vs , yea and any indifferant also , and as for vs wee do acknowledge our offences and sinnes are many , for the which the Lord may justly chastise vs many wayes , and also it may bee the Lord hath bid Mr. S. to abuse vs vvith his tonge , as hee bad Shimei to curse Dauid , 2. Sam. 16. 11. But as Shimei was not guiltles although Dauid had prouoked the Lord : neither is hee guiltles although vvee haue many offences ; but how do I see Adam in him posting of his sin , nay I would hee did so much as Adam , for although Adam did say the Woman that thou gauest mee , she gaue mee of the tree : yet hee saith this also , and I did eat : wherin hee did acknowledge hee had broken Gods command . If this man did say so much , I should haue hope of him : but what shall I say , I doe desir that hee may do it freely , and that is all the hurt I wish him . Before this former answer vvas finished , this man hath sett out his third engion into the world , in the vvhich hee playeth the rowears part vvhich setteth out other mens colleres , to the end they may the easier surprise the marchants ships ; the penner of this , after letter appeareth to bee Mr. Robinson , who vvas forvvard enought to helpe this man in his corrupt estat , as it appeareth by this letter : yet novv I suppose hee vvrit by his information , but whether hee did or not , if now in the ansvver therof , their bee that spoken which please not his friends , and those which consented vnto this letter : then let them thanke this bussy man , vvhich set it out to the world ; and let them know whosoeuer they be , that the trueth must bee preferred befor the respect of any , be they few or many . The Preface to the letter hath this title , an appeale on trueths behalfe , what hee meaneth by trueth hee giueth to vnderstand at the end of his Preface , and referreth the reader to the letter , vvherby I vnderstand these 2. First his refusing to answer , and his factious meeting which hee calleth lawfull , but of these 2. pointes lett the Reader obserue the ansvver before giuen , and then it vvill appeare that these desearueth no such title , but rather to bee titled a plaeye against the trueth . Here follow the Preface to the Letter . OUr opposites after much and long strugling as vvild creatures taken in a snar , perceiuing neither freind nor forenner , knovv how to yeld them any reliefe , though they creept basely for it : being yet set to hold it out trueth fayling them . Answer . Now this man beginneth to shew himselfe in his kinde , and obserue , I pray , his differant cariage in the beginning of his least booke before this , and also the first hee cometh vvith fare , showes and woud make the vvorld beleeue that that which hee doth is all in loue , and therfore hee calleth vs Brethren , although euen then hee did vs great injury , but vvhat maketh him to change his tune so quickly : it seemes by his ovvne words the very hearing that wee porpose to make ansvver to his clamours : and novv how doth hee bestore himselfe , telling to all to whom his writing shall come , that trueth faileth vs , and that wee are taken in a snare , and that wee can haue no reliefe with the rest of his vanting words , and all this and more hee doth , before such time as wee haue put out any ansvver vnto him : therfore hee is more like ●…nto a vvild createur , or like vnto a man that is vvilde in condition , which hauing heard that his ennimy doth porpose to meete vvith him , presently hee drayweth out his sorde , and their with smiteth round about him , and crieth out to his ennimy that hee can not stand before him : but yet I thinke hee should haue stayed himselfe , till one combat had bin tried , and not this to haue vanted himselfe . Well I will leaue it to consideration whether Gaall Judges 9. 29. or hee bee the greatest boasteres , and if wee be as hee saith taken in a snare : hee wanteth not will to hold vs fast , but I will grant him to be the diuells snare layare , as before I haue showed , and I also grant : that hee and some with him hath in snared and troubled the mindes of some which hath troubled vs , & now that hee being a chiefe instrument in this our troubles , or strugling as he tearmeth it , let him take the shame of it vnto himselfe , and let him and all know , that wee are commanded to striue ernestly for the faith once giuen to the Saincts , Iude 3. and for vs I hope wee shall haue cause to say as the Psalm saith , Our soule as a bird is escaped out of the snare of the fowler , the snar is broken , and wee are escaped , Psalm 124. 7. And for to looke for help at the hands of men , vvee leaue that vnto him which doth so labour for it ; and it shall bee sufficient for vs to haue the vvord of the Lord for our warrant , to satisfie the conscience of all that feareth the Lord. And wheras hee saith that wee creept basely for helpe or reliefe . I know no such thing , yet obserue how contrary hee is vnto himselfe , one whille hee saith wee reject the helpe of all , and hear hee saith that wee creept basely for reliefe , and neither of them are true , as hee would make the Reader to vnderstand , for I haue answered before that wee reject the helpe of none in due order , and as their is just occasion . And vvheras hee saith novv they vnconsciennably inuent slanderes hoping after so long time past , they may now boldly change the causes of our differances , and say vvee were cast out for a tempting to lead them to idolatry , and so all wee haue published is no other then lyes , vvhich they novv threaten to manifest to all the vvorld . ANSWER . Wee vvill leaue the inuenting of slanderes vnto himselfe , vvho hath so laueshly let his tong , and pen run that way as hath bin showed , neither will vvee change the causes of our differances , and therfore I haue layd it downe before that they were cast out , for a factious or vnlawfull meeting . 2. For contempt of gouernment in their refusall to answer or to debat their matter , and 3. for contention in the manner of cariages , these were the heades of their causes of their casting out : But now doth hee thinke by this his clamours to stay vs that wee shall not speake , or lay open his sin in the perticulars as vvee haue just occasion , vvhich is contained in chose generall heads , and seeing hee would not debat his matter before hee vvas cast out , but vvould haue it tourned backe in to priuat : therfore although hee hear of it in the publique , vvee do him no injury , seeing hee administers the occasion , and if vvee should not lay open the perticulars to proue the faction , or vnlavvfull meeting , hee I suppose vvould take the aduantage therof ; therfore let the Reader obserue the ansvver before giuen , but that any hath so spoken as hee settes it dovvne , I knovv none , yet if there did any so speake , they shot some thing nearer the marke , if the perticular bee looked into : And vvhereas hee saith that vvee ▪ euer haue shuned triall to such clamours , I haue ansvvered before : But wheras hee saith that this letter doth manifest it wher also contrary , to our saying is confearmed that they censered vs for not , acknovvledging intraping demandes , for Christ government and a lavvfull peacable meeting for faction ▪ Answer . Hovv this letter doth manifest this vvhich hee saith , it vvill in the ansvvering thereof appeare in the meane time ; to him I ansvver , vvee might vvonder how Mr. Rob. can conferm that vvhich hee speaketh of , seeing hee vvas altogether ignorant hovv things were caried , and then on the other hand considering hovv hee vvas corrupted vvith the same errour , and more errours of like natur , vvhich also receiued him by that Samaritanest Couenant , and also receiued for trueth this mans information , and those that assist him ; considering of these things wee may obserue what caried away his affection : but for answer , I giue this man to vnderstand that Solomon Prouerbes 18. 17. hath told vs the condition of such as hee is , therfore the greatest and first complainers are not allwayes the most clears of euill : and therefore now let such as know the trueth judge and consider what is sayd betvveen vs concerning this matter . Hear follovveth the ansvvering of the Letter of the Church of Leyden . WEe receiued your letter Brethren , but not ansvvering either our expectation , or the vvaightnes of the bussines in hand . ANSWER . THis waightie bussines vvhich hee speaketh of , vvas a reconciling of those persons , vvhich vvas cast out for these things in question , and hovv should vvee answer their expectation , seeing those opposites were so stiffe in their sinfull course as that speech doth manifest , which one of them spake aluding to Paule Actes 24. 14. in vvhich speech hee vvould seem to imitat Paule , but although it vvas good in Paul to vse that speech , and showed his fearmnes in the trueth : yet vvas it euill in Mr. S. to vse that speech in the behalfe of his sinne , and it showed his stifnes in the same , and therefore no hope of reconciliation , they so standing in that minde : And vvheras Mr. Robin . vvould seen to justifie him for his stifnes , saying first touching the person intended by you , I should not seeme strange to any , if hee were most forvvard vvho vvas deeply interested in the bussines , and that so far as his Church estat and membership must necessarily stand , or fall vvith that Couenant impugned by you , as the branch vvith the roote . Answer , I denie that his membership should stand or fall by that Couenant , for wee receiued him to vs one these two grounds , first as a member coming from the Church of Leyden , vvith vvhom wee vvere in communion . 2. As being a man capable , because hee vvas fully separated from the false Church , and this hee had manifested vnto vs before wee receiued him : and although the Church of Leyden vvhich held the Couenant true , did so receiue him by that Couenant , yet wee allwayes rejected that Couenant : and did not receiue him by that Couenant vnto vs , for vvee hauing novv another ground to go vpon . First that hee vvas a man absolutly separated . 2. That hee being novv a member of a true Church , vvhich vvas in communion vvith vs : and allthough Mr. S. vvas contrary to himselfe in that hee vvas novv separated , yet held that Couenant true : yet else how should wee beare vvith him in the differance of his judgment according these Scripturs , Rom. 14. 1. and Phil. 3. 14. 15. alwayes prouided that hee keept his errour to himselfe , and not to corrupt others their vvith , and this vvill stand vvith the Scriptures that so vvee receiued him : yet if any can show vs other vvayes that it will not stand , but that wee ought to haue don more ; then there is a remedy by faith and repentance in Christ to helpe all our a mise doings , and not to run vnto such extreme conclusions as Mr. Robin . would driue it , nay yet further I say , that if the Church of Leyden , vvho first receiued him , and that by the vertue of that Couenant ▪ if they had come to see their errour in so doing , yet vvould it not follovv that hee should bee desmembered , seeing hee vvas separated : but the Church ought to acknovvledge their sinne in so doing , and to see that hee corrupted not other Reu. 2. 20. with his errour : and that reason helpeth him not from Gen. 29. 24. where hee saith , As Zilpah vvas not , nor could bee rightfully Leahs handmaide , except shee had bin Labanes first rightfully : by whose gift shee was transmitted and conueyed vnto her . Answer , I grant that Laban could not rightfully giue her , except shee had bin his rightfully before : but if Laban had stollen her , and Zilpah had run avvay , and come to Leahs into the land of Cannan , then Leahs might haue bought her , or haue hiered her , and yet Laban should haue no injury offered vnto him , vnlesse his stealling her , made her his rightfully vvhich ne●… man ought to say . So likewise , neither the Church of Leyden , nor any true Church , ought not to receiue any from such an vnseparated people , seeing they haue but stollen the ordinances of God , and haue no right vnto them . And whereas hee bringeth these reasons to proue his deepe intrest in the bussines , let all know , that no conceited intrest vvill beare out any to maintaine an errour : and therefore all his reasonings is of little weight . And for that hee saith that the Couenant vvas by the Churches both here and there , also in the time of those vvorthy gouernors , now at rest in the Lord esteemed truely Christian , I pray let vs examme the trueth of this , that the Churches both here and there did so esteeme : for our selues I may say that the Church neuer did receiue it , and therefore not so esteeme it : neither vvas the voice of the Church euer taken concerning that Couenant , but vvhen they showed their minde to bee contrary vnto it , and condemned it : Or doth Mr. Robin . thinke that because our teacher , who was a mise informed , did a little whille esteeme of the Couenant ; that therefore the Church must so esteeme also , and thought that wee must doe as these which consented to this letter , which followed o●… suffered him in all , or the most of his declinings : And for that Church which is present in the place vvhere those Couenantmaker are , as wee are truely informed by themselues , they did neuer receiue it . How is this true then vvhich Mr. Robin . sayd : but if it had bin so , what vveight is there in that reason , to helpe the Couenant , much like vnto the reason of the Pharises Iohn 7. 48. which sayd against Christ , doth any of the Rulers or the Pharises beleeue in him , but this people vvhich know not the law , are cursed . Therefore I conclud , it is not the esteeme of Churches , nor of gouernors which giueth authority to such things , but the word of the Lord : and where hee saith the party intended by you , should by your grounds not haue bin cast out , but left out of the Church . Answer , Our grounds inforce not that conclusion , seeing the person vvas novv become a separated person , and a member of the Church of Leyden , from whence wee receiued him , as before I haue showed , in the next place there is a syd and a halfe of the printed letter spent to excues , and to justify Mr. S. in that speech , in the vvhich hee seemed to imitat Paule Actes 24. 14. but of that I haue spoken before , yet still I answer , that those his speechs did proue his stifnes in that his former course , and therefore of reconciliation wee had no hope while hee so stod and continued , and for Mr. Robinson profering to come and to justifie Mr. S. in that his former proceding : to the which I answer , wee know well that hee vvas redy to that bussines , and that hee was one vvith him in that his errour , and therefore just cause wee had not to bee redy to giue him intertainment to come as a moderator to middle the matter , seeing wee find no such president in the booke of God , yet this wee hold and professe , that if any can show that vvee haue sinned in any thing , vvee ought and are redy to heare them , and this haue vvee signified vnto the Church of Leyden by letter , and therefore the way vvas open for them to come in that manner . In the next place hee saith : And wheras the course well begone and tending to pacification , was as wee vnderstand interrupted and broken of vpon a ground taken from the course of not calling againe into question ciuill judgments , once passed by the judge according to right ; let it not bee greiuious vnto you , if wee a little warne you of that dangerous foundation vpon which it seemes you to much build your manner of procedings in the Church . Answer . To hould that matters being ended according to right , ought not at mens pleasures to bee called into question againe , I see not this proued to bee dangerous , by all that which Mr. Rob. haue sayd : For if matters rightfully ended , should at mens pleasurs bee called into question , vvhen vvould their bee an end of contention , either in the Church or in the common wealthes : and for the distinction which hee puteth between the ending of ciuill judgments , & of the casting forth of the sinner by the Church : namly that repentance should follow to these distinctions . Wee agree and signifie withall , that if wee could see that good worke in these persons in question ▪ there vvould bee quickly are conciliation , but yet further I ansvver , to take away occasion from such as take an occasion to cauill at things equall , that wee hold it lawfull although a matter bee rightly ended : yet vvee may go ouer it againe , as the occasion may bee offered , yea and more then once : and this wee haue practised in this matter in the publique with these men diuers times : but yet it vvill not follow , that at mens pleasurs wee must do this , and bring our liberty into bondage , and so to vphold contention . But wher hee saith that a larger extent of discretion this vvay fevv causes in any age can persuad to : then this in hand , considering both the ground and cariage of the thing , and the number of the persons opposite , and vvith these intrest of all other Church in the bussines . Answer . The comparison of any age is more fit to shovv eloquence , and to set a glose vpon the thing in hand , rather then to proue that for vvhich it is brought , and for the ground and cariage of the thing , I haue before spoken of it , to the which I refere the Reader ; and for the number of the persons opposite , I answer , although I am sory they are so many , yet I am glad they are so few , seeing these men are such suttell opposers & labour so much to corrupt the mindes of the simple : and hauing with them Ioab the captaine , and Abiather the Preist , I meane Mr. Robinson and his people to establish them in their straying , and wee hauing bin to backeward to withstand them in these their doings . These things considered , it is the Lords mercy that wee are preserued , but if these opposers were many more then they bee : it is no argument of weight to cause vs to yelde to any vndirect course , whereby the trueth should bee betrayed , but obserue , I pray you , that one , if not more then one of those persons whom Mr. Robin . would at aime haue respected ; yet a little before hee calleth a light person , and I will not striue with him about it , seeing his or their change was like the Barbarians , Act. 28. 6. and for the intrest of all other Churches in the bussines . I answer , I knovv no proper intrest that any Church had in this bussines , for the which they were cast out , but our owne in which they were members , for vnto vs it did appertaine to looke vnto their faction , in the vvhich faction they indeuoured to corrupte our members vvith that their errour , and hath not euery Church a particular right to vvatch ouer their owne members : therefore I conclude , that this is but a glose to deceiue the minde of them that readeth it . And vvheras hee telleth that satisfaction for the manner of the cariage hath bin tender by the parties censured : Answer , Wee should haue bin glad , if they did tender repentance for the matters themselues , and had they not bin vpholden by these men in these their errours , it may bee before now , long they might haue repented of the matters also : for they were as stiffe at the first , when they vvere cast out for the manner as the matters . And where Mr. Robinson saith , that in a matter of meere counsaile and aduise , more then which neither the Church of London requiered , nor you could afford them , any particular person aduised with , and hauing their reasons of differances from the Church persuasion , may and in causes of weight such as this was ought by speech or vvriting as their is occasion signifie , that their different judgment and aduise to them whom it concernes prouided the same bee done in good manner , and with due respect to the Church . Answer , The trueth ought to bee respected , and also the Church which maintained the trueth , but neither of these was so respected as they ought , as before bin showed , by those men in that their doings : Moreouer I could except against this , that it was not properly counsail , or aduise in this point in question , vvhich that Church desired , but to let this passe . I ansvver , might not any heriticke haue such pretences to broch their errours by such smouth grounds or termes , as these bee vnder the pretence of counsaile or aduise : what if the Church of Smyrna , Reu. 2. 8. being solissited by a seducer to receiue the doctrine of Balaam , and should therefore send to the Church at Pergamos , Reu. 2. 12. for their counsaile to know whether they ought to receiue it or reject it , if then the Church of Pergamos did giue them counsayle not to receiue it , and that by the word of God : might those others vvhich vvere corrupted vvith that errour in that Church , gather themselues apart from the Church , and send their counsaile to receiue that errour , and so oppose the trueth and the Church in their procedings ? M. Robin . saith yea in smouth tear●…es . But I say no : because that if the ( vers . 14 ) Church of Pergamos and Thyatira Reu. 2. 20. were blamed for suffering them before to teach and deceiue the Lords people , then their sinne would bee more , to lett them go on to corrupte the Lords people , although they should plead with Mr. Rob. smouth termes of counsaile or aduise : and therefore the Scripture out of Prou. 11. 14. is by him abused : neither is their any liberty taken away from any , seeing none hath liberty to broach errour : and herein was the Church to vse authority , and also to show reason vvhich vvee haue done and vvhen wee did it , although it was at the request of the Church to vvhome vvee vvrit : then this man toke an occasion thereat to make all this trouble . Further hee saith , That seeing both Moyses in the Law Deut. 19. 15. and Christ in the Gospell Matth. 18. 15. 16. 17. ordains , that euery matter should bee established by two or three witnesses . Answer . There were more then tvvo vvitnesses vvhich knew the facte vvhich they had done from their one mouth , besides some that were their : but what need is here not to presse for vvitnesse , vvhen themselues allwayes confessed the fact ? only here is the difference , they thinke it was well doing : and so Mr. Robinson saith also , but wee say and knovv it to bee euill : why then do they not lay this contention a syd and stand to maintaine their cause to make it good or to acknowledge their euill : and for these Scriptures by him alledged wee acknowledge the force of them , that no man which denieth a fact , can bee condemned vnder two witnesses , but what of this , I hope they should also acknowledge , that if there bee no witnesse , yet if a man do freely confesse a fact worthy of death , that then that man should dye , and yet those Scriptures not in the least broken : for Dauid which put the Amalakit to death , knew these Scriptures alledged , and also hee knew that hee broke them not ; because his owne mouth was as sufficient as many vvitnesses . Now if no more vvere sayd , it were sufficient to gainsay that vvhich Mr. Robin ▪ saith , that wee do herein against Moses and Christ , and the Law of the nature it selfe , where hee bringeth Actes 24. 8. 13. Yet further I answer , Mr. Robin . faileth in his ground , for hee taketh it for granted from Mr. S. information , that vvee went vpon suspected euills , and this Mr. S. runeth vpon also bringing our 8. position as before is showed : seeing then they mise in the ground , all falleth at once : and now you may see how well the Church of Leyden hath made good their charge , and which Mr. S. boasted of before : And therefore Mr. Rob. clamours of that large liberty which hee speaketh of , and saith hee can maintaine will here fall to the ground . But vvhere hee saith : And novv brethren , vvhat shall wee say more vnto you , our and all other Churches aduise you , reject in confidence of your owne vnerring judgment , and proceding in this matter . Answer , For vs wee confesse that wee are subject to erre , yet ought wee not therefore to forsake any part of the trueth for tanting words , which Mr. Robinson herein vseth to reproch vs withall , and also maketh a show of that which is not wherein hee dealeth like Mr. S. vvith vvhom hee is a brother in euill : But vvhat and where are those other Churches hee speaketh of , hee should therefore haue keept himselfe to his ovvne Church vvhich had consented to this euill Letter , vvhich hee hath written , but if hee could shovv other Churches , vvhich did so aduise vs , were it not a vvorthy argument to conuince vs. Therefore I say to the Law , and to the testimonies of the Lord , if they can bee brought to ouersway our reasons , I trust the Lord will giue vs hearts to submit therevnto , and vvhere hee vvisheth that vvee did see our weaknes , and saith then would you not procede vvith that confidence , in a matter and manner before ynheard of in the Churches . Answer : How true this is , it doth appeare by the answer to Mr. S. Preface before : for their I haue layd downe the matter and approued our course by the word of God , and haue the examples of the Churches of God in the like causes , which by the vvord of the Lord is approued : and for our weaknes wee knovv it , and confesse it , yet ought wee not willfully to cast away our obedience from the least of Gods preceptes , or commandes , which hee hath giuen vs to walke in , vpon Mr. Rob ▪ suttle inticements , yet wee are redy to hear what any man can informe vs , by the word of the Lord : and therefore that sentence hee might haue spared , wher hee saith , As if the word of God either came from you , or vnto you alone , and who can not abuse Scripture phrases to effect their willes . Lastly hee endeth his Letter vvith vpbrading of vs , which is as , I suppose , a principall cause that Mr. S. hath set it out to the vvorld , because it agreeth vvith his manner of reproching of vs , as followeth : And for the Church here vvhich is nearliest vnited vnto you , vvhat other vse haue you had of vs since the death of your vvise and modest gouernors in all your differances and troubles ? saue to helpe to bear part of the scandall & opprobry , wherwith specially in the publique cariage of matters , you haue layden the ordinances of God and professors of the same in the eyes of all within and vvithout : but in vaine vvee speake vnto you , vvhose eares prejudice hath stopped . Ansvver , In deed nearlist in dwelling , but fardist of in affection as it may appeare , not only by this bitter Letter , but also to strangers , as occasionally they passe by their dwellings , by vvhome it cometh to our eares , hovv bitterly they inuay against vs ; and what is the cause , because wee wil not receiue their new found vvayes of declining , and because wee deslike that they looke not better to the Lords vvatch in suffering their members to apostat : some declining to the Church of England , & their liuing , other going a great compase to new England to communicat with the Church of England : and some of them that are in this Land professe to hear in the assemblies , as they haue occasion ; and I make no doubte , but they haue don it many times : and this their negligent watch hath effected so , that from a great company they are allmost come to nothing or fewer then those vvhom they despies , and haue sayd concerning vs , that our contentions would break vs to peeces . And further I say that our troubles haue by them bin increased in vnjust , taking part vvith our opposites ; so that the prouerbe is in them fullfilled which saith , Prou. 27. 17. Yron sharpeneth yron : so doth man sharpen the face of his friend ; for Mr. S. informeth Mr. Rob. and his people a mise , and they againe sharpen his face , and harden him in his euill , and others that take his part : and so increase our trouble and also the scandall , and herin they fullfill this prouerbe : Prou. 28. 4. They that forsake the law , praise the vvicked : and therfore lett it not bee though contention , allthough wee faile in the manner of the doing of it : if wee keepe and obserue the other part of the Prouerbe vvhich saith ; But they that keepe the lavv sett themselues against them . And novv my brethren that are absent , I speake to all that are faithfull , if all the Churches of God , Gala. 1. 7. Phili. 3. 18. 2. Peter 2. 1. or the most of them haue bin thus troubled as the Scriptur doeth plentyfully shovv , vvhy should it seeme strang vnto you , as if some strang thing had befallen vs , or as if it vvere other vvayes vvith vs then it hath bin vvith the Churches of God , euen in the dayes of the Apostells and in all ages , yea and hath not the Apostells Act. 20. 30. foretold that such things must bee , saying , For their must bee heresies amongst you , that they vvhich are approued may bee made manifest amongst you : 1. Cor. 11. 19. If therfore vvee striue for the trueth , and to abolish sinne , vvee do herin the will of God : Therefore our Lord teacheth vs to judge with consideration Iohn 7. 24. saying , Iudge not according to the apparence , but judge righteous judgment . Neither let any stomble or bee offended at any weaknesses they see , or espie in vs , for wee are but vveake men compased about vvith the same infirmities euen as other , yet desiring to bee helped by any ; let therfore such as haue a loue vnto the trueth , rather sett their shoulder to the Lords vvorke , and helpe to bear the burden , Gala. 6. 2. which the Lord hath appointed : and let all know that as it is euill to giue justly an offence for any to stomble , so is it dangerous to bee offended in Christ , as our Lord saith , Matth. 11. 6. And blessed is hee that shall not bee offended in mee . And vvher Mr. Rob. saith that our cares are stoped vvith prejudice . Answer , It hath bin time for him to say this , if hee had conuinced vs of errour or sinne , but to run on thus vpon an vnjust ground , may rather bee judged prejudice in him . And wheras hee saith , that they will bewaile our state , which is in deed to bee bevvailed : to this I answer , Allthough hee doth mise the right mark in this his bewayling of vs , for hee bevvayleth vs because wee withstand his errour and declining , yet for our selues I say vvee haue cause to bee sory , or to bewayle our sinnes and vveakness●…s , and also our troubles which our opposites hath made : and the more sory vvee are that hee and his people hath vnjustly helped them as this Letter doeth manifest , and vvhich I haue noted before , yet more I say bevvayle or weepe not for vs only , but for themselues in respect of those euills and declinings before showed : and thus I end vvith the Letter of the Church of Leyden , desiering all to consider of that vvhich is vvritten , in the which their is no eloquence , for I want learning and am but a bab in Christ : yet I pray consider that when a child , pleadeth reason , it ought the more to bee regarded , because it proceed from so simple an vnderstanding : so looke vpon the cause to bee the more just and equale , because I am but weake , and haue not been hertofore so imployed . And novv as Elihu saith Iobe 34. 3. The ear crieth words as the mouth casteth meats ; therefore try the reasons and Scriptures alledged , and as Paule saith 2. Timo. 2. 7. Consider what I say and the Lord giue thee vnderstanding in all things . FIN . COncerning the publique passages of things in the Church which ●…re in this booke , I haue been carefull to keepe to the trueth of things , yet it may bee in some vvord or vvordes vvhich is not materiall , to change any sence may haue escaped , therefore for the more certainty of the trueth thereof , I did first reuise them with diuers brethren : and then I read it in the publique , first because all should take knowledge of the rightstanding of the cause indifferant : secondly because I would not allvvayes striue about words and things which concerneth not the things indifferant : and so to fill the vvorld full of needlesse contention , vvhich is neither to Gods glory , nor yet to the comfort of him that doeth it . Fault escaped . In page 2. line 8. seeing is wanting . p. 4. l. 4. read vs for his . p. 4. l. 21. a mise for inse . pag. 5. l. 2. read sinne for sence . p. 5. l. 9. read were for was . p. 5. lin . 23. read appealing for appearing . p. 5. l. 30. read said for sayth . p. 8. l. 37. read proued for proue . p. 11. l. 2. read circumcision for circoncision . p. 11. l. 23. read second for two . p. 12. l. 11. read the for to . p. 13. l. 6. read prouoke for prouoque . p. 13. l. 12. read scerching for cerching . p. 15. l. 17. our is vvanting . p. 25. l. 33. read try for cry . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A13299-e200 R. B. D. P. S. I. E. H. A. B. * Iustification of separ●…tion . * Obserue this is the 〈◊〉 which Mr St. 〈◊〉 to haue . * An a●…row against the sep●…ration of the B●…un . pag ●…9 . line 25. 
A64152	----	The anatomy of the separatists, alias, Brownists the factious brethren in these times, wherein this seditious sect is fairely dissected, and perspicuously discovered to the view of world : with the strange hub-bub, and formerly unheard of hurly-burly, which those phanatick and fantastick schismatiks made on Sunday ... the 8 of May ... at the sermon of the Right Rev. Father in God, Henry, Bishop of Chichester ... Taylor, John, 1580-1653. This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription A64152 of text R20093 in the English Short Title Catalog (Wing A3060B T427). Textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. The text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with MorphAdorner. The annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). Textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. This text has not been fully proofread Approx. 20 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 5 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. EarlyPrint Project Evanston,IL, Notre Dame, IN, St. Louis, MO 2017 A64152 Wing A3060B Wing T427 ESTC R20093 12291411 ocm 12291411 58900 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A64152) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 58900) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 196:1 or 265:E238, no 14) The anatomy of the separatists, alias, Brownists the factious brethren in these times, wherein this seditious sect is fairely dissected, and perspicuously discovered to the view of world : with the strange hub-bub, and formerly unheard of hurly-burly, which those phanatick and fantastick schismatiks made on Sunday ... the 8 of May ... at the sermon of the Right Rev. Father in God, Henry, Bishop of Chichester ... Taylor, John, 1580-1653. [2], 6 p. [s.n.], London : 1642. Item at reel 196:1 and 265:E238, no. 14 identified as T427 (number cancelled in Wing 2nd ed.). Reproduction of original in Thomason Collection, British Library. eng Brownists. Dissenters, Religious -- England. A64152 R20093 (Wing A3060B T427). civilwar no The anatomy of the separatists, alias, Brownists, the factious brethren in these times. Wherein this seditious sect is fairely dissected, an [no entry] 1642 3654 6 15 0 0 0 0 57 D The rate of 57 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the D category of texts with between 35 and 100 defects per 10,000 words. 2002-05 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2002-06 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2002-08 Judith Siefring Sampled and proofread 2002-08 Judith Siefring Text and markup reviewed and edited 2002-10 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion THE ANATOMY OF THE Separatists , alias , Brownists , the factious Brethren in these Times . WHEREIN This seditious Sect is fairely dissected , and perspicuously discovered to the viewof World . With the strange hub-bub , and formerly unheard of hurly-burly , which those phanatick and fantastick Schismatiks made on Sunday in the after-noone , being the 8 of May , in the Parish of S. Olaves in the Old-Iury , at the Sermon of the Right Rev. Father in God , Henry , Bishop of Chichester , In the presence of the Right Honorable the Lord Major of this renowned Metropolis , and diverse worthy Members of the Honorable House of COMMONS . LONDON , Printed in the yeare , 1642. The Anatomy of the Separatists , Alias , Brownists , the factious Brethren in these Times . SVch is the all-daring and Lewd Licentiousnesse of these last and perillous dayes of the World , that with their Faction , Schisme & confusion of contradicting and dissenting Sectaries , the Church of England ( not long since the Reformed Religion ) is promiscuously shaken , deplorably enervated , miserably torne and distracted . Religion it selfe is now crucified , as Christ was between two thieves , viz , Superstition and Irreverence , which is a spice of Atheisme , and of the two extreames is worse peccant in the defect , than in the excesse . The World is growne into a new confused Chaos , full of new wine lately come from New England , a new Spirit , new Revelations , & new Formes of Prayer . There is such a giddinesse in the profession of Religion , that every one almost is led by his own opinion , and most men in matters of judgement are divided one against another . 'T is too true , that many places in the Kingdom of England , and in this Citty of London are too much Amsterdamnified by brainelesse opinions , and severall senses , which indeed are senselesse senses in Religion . Religion is become common Table-talke , the ordinary discourse at very our Commons and Ordinaries , where a man shall hardly find foure together of one mind . The Papists will have their way ; the Atheists will have their way ; the Brownists their way ; the Anabaptists their way , the Familists their way ; and the Sisters of the Fraternity their way : So that in these various and irregular wayes , they make such an intricate Labyrinth of Religion , that few or none scarce can find out the right way . A man may with more facility reckon up all the species and kinds of Nature , then describe all the Sects , Divisions and Opinions in Religion that are at this time amongst us . Some approve of Popery , because Ignorance is the mother of Devotion ; Others affect nothing but their own silly fancyes , esteeming all things else prophanation and superstition . One at the receiving of the holy Communion will not kneele , another will not stand , a third will sit downe , a fourth will not bow ; One holds reverence to be Popery , another that Rayles before the Communion Table are Romish , and that all decency is Superstitious . Some say it is lawful to kneele at receiving the Elements of the sacred Eucharist , others argue and plead for it , as expedient ; some again do presse it as necessary ; and there are others ( indeed too many of that Sect amongst us ) who abhorre it as Idolatrous . One out of zeale , somewhat inconsiderate , cryes down Episcopacy , as Antichristian : Another very moderate , wishes earnestly Episcopacy were reformed and purged from the Romish and Tyrannicall government , that incumbers it : A third kind of men carryed by a contrary wind , maintaine Episcopacy to be Iure Divino : Thus quot homines , tot Sententiae , So many men , so many minds . From these premisses of Discord and Faction , needs must there proceed much tumult and distraction to the great disgrace and scandall to the true Protestant Religion , to the encouragement of the wicked , who seeing that there are so many Sects and Separatists , will therefore be of no Religion : O Deus bone , in quae tempora reservasti nos● Polycarp . Well may we take up that exclamation of the Roman Orator , O tempora ! O mores ! Bad times , wherein there are worse men , and worst of all manners . Plenitudo hominum , sed solitudo bonorum ; a plenty of men , but a scarcity of good men . There is such a multitude of Sectaries in all places , both in our Cities and Countries , that we may justly feare this little Island will be turned into a great Amsterdam . Hinc illae lacrymae , One would reconcile Popery and our Religion together , another would introduce faction and innovations into the Church : So that between the Papists and Separatists , the Church strangely suffers . This latter sort of late days hath been very impudent and turbulent , both to the Church and Common-wealth . They were never more insolent at any time , then they are now at this time , and never more frequent and resident in any place then in the two famous Cities , Amsterdam , and this of London . They are the Separatists , or Brownists ; the Libertines or Anabaptists ; who are grown to a great head , ( for indeed they are Bellua multorum capitum ) a giddy headed multitude , & are so common amongst us , that they are commonly call'd the Round-heads . The Fraternity at Amsterdam , and the Brownists in Town , are brethren of the same Tribe . They are nominated Brownists from one Browne ; as we usually terme the Lutherans from Luther , the Calvinists from Calvin , and the Arminians from Arminius . These are the late up-start Sectaries of this age , the new crept in Caterpillers of our Kingdome , that do more mischief dayly , than any sect whatsoever . These are the Ionahs that have raised the tempest ; these are the Achaxs that do trouble our Israel . They are so many for their multitude , that like Bees they swarme amongst us . Indeed the time was when they crept in corners , but now they are like the Egyptian Locusts , covering the whol land , ye may know them by their frequent and far fetcht sighes , the continuall elevation of their eyes , their meager physiognomies , solitary countenances , sharp noses , by the cut of their hayre , made even with the top of their prick-eares , ( for their haire is as short as their eye-brows , though their consciences be as vast as the Ocean ) yee may further discerne them by their broad hats and narrow ●ufs , which they usually weare , the putting of their gloves under their girdles , and the folding of their hands one within another . Indeed they are painted sepulchres , whited walls , whose Religion consists in frequent fasting , and long prayers , which devoure widdowes houses , the outside of whose vessels are pure and washed , but within full of filth and corruption , under sheep-skins are ravenous Wolves . They hold that Religion ought to be guided by the motion of the Spirit , not reason ; therefore they will rule Religion , Religion shall not rule them , or else they will go against Religion , as the Iewes did in meeting Christ with swords and staves . They pretend sanctity , but intend impiety ; much they professe , but little good they expresse : Their Piety is altogether dissembled , and what that is , t is sufficiently known ; for simulat a sanctitas est duplex iniquitas . Religion is of it selfe pure , unspotted , immaculate , and undefiled ; but they by their private malice , do endeavour to pollute and contaminate the purity thereof . They say they would have Religion reformed , but their ayme is to have it deformed . These were called in Greeke {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} in Hebrew Paratzim ; viz. Separatists , for other men they accounted profane people of the earth , but themselves the only holy men in the Land ; therefore with others they would not converse for feare of defilement . In a precise manner they looke down with their eyes , when inwardly a whore is not more deceitful . They are double-minded , hollow-hearted , and wil as nimbly swallow up at a bit , another mans estate , as our Dutch will pills of butter , and never purch for it , All is fish that comes to their net . Vnde habeant nemo quaerit , sed oportet habere . They make it no matter how they come by it , so they have it . Their mouths are replenished with yeas , and very lyes , but their tongs and hearts do as much differ as truth and errour : though they do seldome damnably sweare , yet they will most abominably lye . For lying , falsehood , and hypocrisy , these are their familiar experssions . They are much addicted to prayer and fasting ; for they frame a long Babel-like prayer , made up with hums and hawes ; and though they affect fasting well , yet they love their flesh better , They much delight in private conventicles , and secret and obscure places , in which voluptuous wantonnesse has her meeting , where the Spirit enlightens the understanding to see a sister in the darke : though they are superciliously rigid and censorious , yet they seem very charitable , for rather then their sisters shall want food , they will fill their bellies , and rather then they shall be naked , they will cover their bodyes . Brothers they are , but not of the blade ; for they cannot endure our Cavaleers ; yet they are lovers of the sisters of the scaberd . Brethren they are , not of the Corporation , but the separation ; like Simeon and Levi , they are fratres in malo . They are altogether ignorant , therefore they despise all learning : for the tongues and languages , they utterly abhorre and detest them as profane , and for our ordinary Latine , they 〈◊〉 it is the language of the beast . They are resolved still to be as they are , ignorant , for they bold it Idolatry and superstition to learne to re●d because the very first letter begins with a Crosse . The Crosse they account the marke of the beast , and though it be the ancient ensign of Christianity , yet by them it is contemned , All Crosses they dosie as may-poles ; the one they hold profane , and the other they averre to be superstitious . They can endure no Crosse but that on Silver or Gold ; and for the Crosse in Cheapeside , it is the pillar of golden superstition , the abomination of the City , the City Idoll , and a supporter of Idolls , having so many images about it , which is as displeasing to their sight as the Counter in Woodstreet is to an indebted Citizen . All Ceremonies they account Popish , a Surplesse the snock of the whor of Babilon , the sight wherof is as terrible to them in a Church at noone , as the apparition of a Ghost in a Church-yard at midnight , An orthodox and lawfuly called , and allowed Minister is not minded amongst them ; for they hold it as lawfull for Artificers , and Laymen , to preach in publike , and those that are most inferior , as Coblers , Weavers , Leather-sellers , Box-makers , Iron-mongers , Felt-makers , and such mechanick fellowes . These and their holy sisters ( for they may wel be linkt together ) are they , who by their unreverent gestures in the Church disesteeme of Church-Prayers ; These are they who contemn the publike service of God , and cry down the Lyturgie of the Church of England ; that solemne Lyturgie , celebrous by the piety of Bishops , and Martyres , hallowed with the blond of some of them who composed it , established by the Lawes of this Land , by severall Acts of Parliament in this Kingdome , attested and approved by the best of all forraigne Divines , confirmed by the subscription of all the Clergie , accepted of by the most and best of all the Laity , and hath continued since in the raignes of Queene Elizabeth , King Iames , and our gracious King Charles , in the Church of England , for the service of God these 90. yeares ; that this holy exercise of Religion should be by them vilified , interrupted , and depraved , what doth it tend to , but the advancing of Heresie , Schisme , Profanenesse , Libertinisme , Anabaptisme , and Atheisme ? We acknowledge , that some parts of our publike Liturgy , may be very well corrected , ( and thankes be to God the great Counsell of the King , and the Kingdome have consulted and determined about it ) but the clamours now go very high : Impudence or Ignorance is at this time grown so frontlesse , that it is confidently expected by many , that all formes of publike worship should be utterly abrogated , and that our booke of Common-Prayer should bee quite abolished , as they would have Episcopacy everlastingly extirpated . They affirme that that which is called the Liturgy is the same with the Masse , either a Lethargy of worship , or a Masse of Idolatry ; wherein is no purity , but all papistry . In the Service-booke they say there are foppish and foolish Tautologies , as in these words , The Lord be with you and with your Spirit : And in the Letany , there are vaine and ●●ivolous repetitions of words , as Good Lord deliver us , and We bese●●● to heare us good Lord ; which they are not ashamed to say are ridiculous Invocations like magick spels , and no better than conjuring . These moderne Zealots ( forsooth ) are offended at the vestments and habits of the Clergie ; every thing though never so laudable , decent , and necessary , if contrary to their opinion , is by them accounted profane , or superstitious . They make no reckoning of the Church of God , than of a barne , or a stable , either of these is all alike to them . Barnes and Stables are for threshers and hostlers : the Church is the House of God : yet they are so base minded , as to conjecture a barne or stable good enough for him , whom the heaven of heavens cannot containe , the high and lofty one that inhabiteth Eternity . They account their own houses as holy as the Church ; T is strange Divinity , and yet I hold no inherent holinesse in either . I have read of a sort of Hereticks about the yeare of our Lord 1126. who would have all Churches defaced and demolished as needlesse Fabricks , and unnecessary structures ; for God dwels not in temples made with hands . Sure these Separatists are of their minds ; If they were not , they would mind the Church better then they do ; But these love to stand without at the Church doore : I am sure they have no president for it out of the Word of God , that whilst the preacher and people are praying , within , they should stand prating without . That description of S. Paul may be properly predicated of them : they are lovers of their own selves , covetous , boasters , proud , disobedient , unthankfull , unholy , without naturall affection , truce breakers , false accusers , incontinent , fierce , despisers of others , heady , high minded , {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} , magis quam , {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} {non-Roman} lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God , having a forme of godlinesse , but denying the power thereof , 2 Tim. 3. 2 , 3 , 4. Tha likewise of S. Iude may be truly applyed to them , they defile the flesh , despise dominion , and speak evill of dignities , 8 ver. These are they who separate themselves , sensuall , having not the Spirit , 19 ver. And who these persons are , who say they have the Spirit , the subject of this small Tract doth sufficiently declare , the Separatists . They are offensive to God in the contempt of his Ordinance , whose commandement is , that every soule should be subject to the higher powers ; and they are injurious to the King and State , whose power they despise , and government they affront . Their lives are hypocriticall , their positions schismaticall , their thoughts perilous , their words malicious , their Acts mischievous , and their opinions impious . They hold it a matter arbitrary or indifferent , which they dispense with at their own wils & pleasures , to behave themselves irreverently , unmannerly , undecently , and disorderly in Gods House , in his presence , and that under pretence of avoyding superstition , Dum vitant stulti vitia , in contraria currunt : what is this , but to avoyd Scylla , and fall upon Charybdis ? to run from one extreame to a worse , ex fuma●io flammam , out of the smoake into the flame . This is the reason they have made so many uproares , the like in pristine ages unparalleld motions and commotions in our Churches of late dayes , in the Cathedrall of S. Paul , within these few months , and in S. Olaves Church in the old Iewry , on Sunday in the afternoone being the 8. of May , I know not by what unhappy fate , there was at that present congregated a company of rude Rascals , to the number of above 100 , who as soon as the right Rev. pious and learned Bishop came up into the Pulpit in his Lawn sleeves and other vestments suitable to a Prelate , they presently like an unmannerly and ill-bred crue of unruly curres , made such a hideous clamour in the Church of God , crying joyntly , most impudently and with one accord , A Pope , a Pope , a Pope , to the astonishment of the man of God , & to the admiration and amazement of the L. Major , the Parliament Gentlemen , and other noble and worthy auditors that were then present . Some of the varlets ran out of the Church , others by the L. Majors officers were thrust out of the Church , and the doore shut upon them : And I wish this cursed Sect may beever excluded as from our Churches so from our Cities , Assemblies and societies : I am sure , in the purest times of the Primitive Church , there were Ostiarit , Doore-keepers , to debar from ingresse into the Church notorious Hereticks , obstinate Idolaters and profane livers . I would not be accounted uncharitable , therefore my opinion is , that these sons of tumult bare no violent malice to the Right Reverend Bishops person , ( for he is the object of every mans love ) only I imagine their inveterate spleene aymd at his function . A Pope and a Bishop are all one with them , when these turbulent Schismatickes were in the street , they fell to picking of quarrels , and broke many glasse windowes in the Church , in the time of the Sermon , they were so audacious and impudent as to say , that they who were in the Church were at Masse , and that the Lord Major was a Papist , whom God and the world knowes to be a Gentleman of an approved and unblemished integrity and an unfained Protestant of the Church of England . One thing I have more to relate , that on of the rascals was the same day apprehended , & examined by some of the Parliament Gentlemen after Sermon in the Lord Majors house , & was by his Lordship committed , of whom hereafter ye shall heare more ; for the present , I am sorry that such an occasion is offered me to trouble the Readers patience so much , with the relation of this viperous generation , and with such unsanctified sons of mischiefe as these are ; Only give me leave , before I leave them , to leave this wish to them , that these Brothers of Schisme and Sedition , with their Sisters of Faction and insurrection ( for they of that sexe are as bad , being of the same sect ) may in due time ( as I hope shortly they will ) suffer exemplary and condigne punishment according to their demerits . FINIS . 
A64208	----	A tale in a tub, or, A tub lecture as it was delivered by my-heele Mendsoale and inspired Brownist and a most upright translator : in a meeting house neere Bedlam the one and twentieth of December, last 1641 / vvritten by J. T. Taylor, John, 1580-1653. This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription A64208 of text R8979 in the English Short Title Catalog (Wing T515). Textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. The text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with MorphAdorner. The annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). Textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. This text has not been fully proofread Approx. 11 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 5 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. EarlyPrint Project Evanston,IL, Notre Dame, IN, St. Louis, MO 2017 A64208 Wing T515 ESTC R8979 12589759 ocm 12589759 63859 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A64208) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 63859) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 250:E138, no 27) A tale in a tub, or, A tub lecture as it was delivered by my-heele Mendsoale and inspired Brownist and a most upright translator : in a meeting house neere Bedlam the one and twentieth of December, last 1641 / vvritten by J. T. Taylor, John, 1580-1653. [2], 6 p. [s.n.] London : 1641. J. T. is John Taylor. cf. BM. Reproduction of original in Thomason Collection, British Library. eng Brownists. Great Britain -- Church history -- 17th century. A64208 R8979 (Wing T515). civilwar no A tale in a tub or, A tub lecture as it was delivered by my-heele Mendsoale, an inspired Brownist, and a most upright translator. In a meeti Taylor, John 1642 1850 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 A This text has no known defects that were recorded as gap elements at the time of transcription. 2002-01 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2002-01 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2002-03 TCP Staff (Michigan) Sampled and proofread 2002-03 Olivia Bottum Text and markup reviewed and edited 2002-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A TALE In a TUB OR , A TUB LECTURE As it was delivered by My-beele Mendsoale , an Inspired Brownist , and a most upright Translator . In a meeting house neere Bedlam , the one and twentieth of Decembler , Last , 1641. VVritten by J.T. London , Printed 1641. A TVB Lecture BEloved Sisters , and my well infected Brethren , attend this Text , as you shall find it written in the first Chapter of Bell and the Dragon , the third Verse , as it followeth , Now the Babylonians had an Idoll they called Bell , and there were spent upon him every day , 12 gress measures of fine flower , and 40 sheepe , and 6 vessels of wine . I will first of all make a Division in the former part of my Text , I will leave the latter to the Last , and expound that as I shall VVax to an End . Now the Babilonians had an Idoll they called Bell . This sentence I shall divide into 4 parts , because your understandings my Beloved Brethren , consisteth chiefly in the Knowledge of Divisions , the particles are these . 1. The Time . 2. The Nation . 3. The Crime . 4. The Denomination . The Time . Now . The Nation , The Babylonians . The Crime , had an Idoll . The Denomination , called Bell . Now the Babylonians had an Idoll called Bell . First I will begin with the time , you must not conceive that it was 1 , 10. 100. 1000 yeares agoe , but Now , at this present , Now the Babylonians , &c. Beloved there is much evill and abomination to be picked out of these three letters Now , according to the explication of a deare deceased Brother of ours which you cald Anthony Now , Now , and cald he was from us too soone , yet the worst the wicked can say of him is , that hee dyed a dutifull death , and hee did but Come when he was called , but leaving our Brother as he hath left us , I will proceed with this word Now , Now the Babylonians , Now doth , plainely and significantly expound it self in these words , at this time , this present , this instant , and never were people more strangely misled by fals teaching and preaching then Now : you shall heare how many sentences or questions this word Now will answer me : When were golden Crosses , Images & pictures suffered to stand in defiance of the Brethren , nay even in the open streetes ? my Text doth answer Now : When were lying , fcurrilous pamphlets , which abuse the Brethren in prose and Verse , by the Name of Round-head , more in Fashion then Now . There was one who writ a Booke , intituled , A Medicine for the times , where assuredly he doth vindicate that pillar of Golden superstition , Cheap side Crosse , calling us thieves , who bare away the lead , because those limbes should not be agen set up by Idolatrous people , & when was this booke generally sold to draw the hearts of the people from us , but according as it is in my text , Now : but were he in our Conventicle that writ it , and he that printed it , I thinke it were convenient that all of us with one a-cord shold endeavour to hang them to death , and were they here , no fitter time then Now : but sithence they are not present , we will defer their execution till wee can confidently say we have them Now : but because I will not trespasse upon your patience much longer then my limited time , 6 houres , I will Now conclude this part of my Text , and proceed to the next , which is the Nation . This Nation were Babylonians , for so my Text telleth me , Now the Babylonians . Beloved , these Babylonians are a Nation that inhabited Babylon , and derive their names from Nimrods Tower , Babel , a Tower , which according to my Authors description , was 4 hundred thousand times higher then the Tower of London , bearing twice as many hundred thousand piece of Ordnance , for it was the intention of that proud Nimrod , to shoot downe heaven : amongst this Nation lived that grand enemy to our sect , The Whore of Babylon , a most fathomlesse Harlot , and corrupted every man that had any Part in Babel ( the more fooles they ) this Nimrod was the first that ever taught Idolatry , for ( as I have bin told ) you know I cannot read my selfe , before ever the Art of carving or painting was , hee taught the people to adore the fire , which expressed his hot zeale in Idolatry , it was onely their ignorance in arts , that kept them from setting up such a Crosse , as is in Cheap-side : not long after Nimrod succeeded King Astiages : after his decease , Cyrus of Persia received his Kingdome , as you shall read in the first Verse of this Chapter , and according to my Text is living at this present , for , Now the Babylonians had an Idoll , Called Bell. And thus much shall suffice to have bin spoken for the second part of my Text , which is the Nation , Babilonians , now the Babilonians , I will now proceed unto the third , which is their crime , their Idolatry , their Image worship the Divell by this time had instructed them in the Art of making Idols , for so my Text saith , Now the Babylonians had an Idoll . This Idol was made of Brasse without and clay within , a brazen face , and an earthen heart , fil'd with corruption and fraught with abhomination . This word Idoll properly derives it selfe from Idle , which in signification , my attentive Brethren , is sloth , Iazinesse , they wold imploy their times in nothing but making Images . I le warrant you in those dayes a Journeyman Image-Maker might get his halfe crowne a day , doe you but censure then , my deare Assembly , how they flourished in their wickednesse , but , since they had nothing else to doe but to set up Idols , it shall become us to make it the busines of our whole lives to pull them downe : but take this caution with you , when you next attempt the holy destruction of that nest of Idols , Cheap-side Crosse , be not too violent , least you suffer as our Brother did , yet had hee past the Pikes , he had bin living to this day . This Idoll in my Text , was Brasse without , and earth within , a cheape Idoll to those in Cheap-side , for they are Gold without , and lead within . Beloved , Lead was not made to forme Idols with , but for the good of mankind , which is to make Bullets , and Tyle Houses ; your onely way to confound this aforesaid Cheap-side Crosse , is to pull downe to the ground , that old Idoll Charin , and beat downe this with the stones , that wee may have no more cause to say , Now the Babylonians had an I doll called Bell . I am now come to the Denomination of this Idoll , they cald him Bell , for so saith the Text . Now the Babilonians had an Idol . This notorious Babe of Idolatry , who hath to name , Bell , hath his Name derived from that generall enemy to mankind Belze-bub , one whom we all know to bee the Devill ; this Bell was made of brasse , & that is the only reason ( my beloved ) that our Bels be held so much in contempt amongst the Brethren . This Bell according to the text had spent upon him every 10 great Measures of fine Flower , 40 Sheepe , and 6 Vessels of wine : now who devoured this Flower ? Bell , who consumed the 40 Sheepe , but Bell , who dranke the wine , so that there was a generall exaction laid upon each Pint and Quart , but Bell , or A-bell . I have observed that there was never any good in that word where Bell had a share in 't what was Adam Bell , but a hunter , so was Nimrod , who built that ambitious Tower Babel ; I have heard with mine owne eares , those blads which call themselvs Cavaleroes call a Crosse Bard sword Troy Bel. what is a Bel-man but a night walker ( as I apprehend him ) nay doe not your superstitious papists curse the Bretheren with Bell Booke and Candell ; was not that Cardinall an arch Heretick who had to name Bell Armine ; doe not those persecuting papists in Ireland ReBel , yes double and Tre-Bel ; and I hope there will be such an Equall uniformity amongst us who are the select Brethren that no particular man may be sayd to bare the Bel : nor shall any man hereafter be counted a man the sounder for being Bel-Metle , for Bel was Brasse without and Clay within . Now the Babilonians had an Idol called Bell , and there was spent upon him every day 12 measures of fine flower , and 40 sheepe and 6 Vessels of wine , beloved had I been to serve Bell with this banquet I would have made Bels eares ring noone ere he should have had it ; now who doe you conceive should worship this Bell ? noe worse man then Cyrus the King , as you shall find it in the fourth verse ; And Syrus worshipped it and went daily to adore it . And it is thought ( by some Authors ) that this Syrus first made this Bel , if hee did , hee was but a Bel founder ; or at least the first that ever was a Bel-founder . I shall love a Bel-founder the worse for it all dayes of my life ; I could proceed further and would but for feare of the law , who if I should be too zealous , would censure this Lecture to be a Libell , therefore , this shall suffice at this time , next meeting shall perfect the worke begun : repaire to your houses and consider of these sayings , Farewell . FINIS . 
A87141	----	A true relation of a company of Brownists, separatists, and nonconformists, in Monmouthshire in Wales. With the manner of their doctrine, christnings, vveddings, and burialls. Together vvith a relation of the knavery that some of their teachers practised to enrich themselves withall. The truth whereof will be justified by sundry people of good quality inhabiting in the said county. / By Edward Harris. Harris, Edward, 17th cent. This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription A87141 of text R16250 in the English Short Title Catalog (Thomason E172_31). Textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. The text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with MorphAdorner. The annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). Textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. This text has not been fully proofread Approx. 11 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 5 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. EarlyPrint Project Evanston,IL, Notre Dame, IN, St. Louis, MO 2017 A87141 Wing H843 Thomason E172_31 ESTC R16250 99859998 99859998 112103 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A87141) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 112103) Images scanned from microfilm: (Thomason Tracts ; 30:E172[31]) A true relation of a company of Brownists, separatists, and nonconformists, in Monmouthshire in Wales. With the manner of their doctrine, christnings, vveddings, and burialls. Together vvith a relation of the knavery that some of their teachers practised to enrich themselves withall. The truth whereof will be justified by sundry people of good quality inhabiting in the said county. / By Edward Harris. Harris, Edward, 17th cent. [8] p. s.n.], [London : Printed in the yeare 1641. Place of publication from Wing. Reproduction of the original in the British Library. eng Dissenters, Religious -- England -- Early works to 1800. Brownists -- England -- Early works to 1800. Separatists -- England -- Early works to 1800. A87141 R16250 (Thomason E172_31). civilwar no A true relation of a company of Brownists, separatists, and nonconformists, in Monmouthshire in Wales.: With the manner of their doctrine, Harris, Edward 1641 2042 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 A This text has no known defects that were recorded as gap elements at the time of transcription. 2008-05 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2008-06 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2008-08 Paul Schaffner Sampled and proofread 2008-08 Paul Schaffner Text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-09 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A TRVE RELATION OF A Company of Brownists , Separatists , and Non-Conformists , In Monmouthshire in Wales . With the manner of their Doctrine , Christnings , VVeddings , and Burialls . TOGETHER VVith a Relation of the knavery that some of their Teachers practised to enrich themselves withall . The truth whereof will be justified by sundry people of good quality inhabiting in the said County . By Edward Harris . Printed in the yeare 1641. A TRVE RELATION OF A company of Brownists , Separatists , and Non-conformists in Monmouth shire in WALES . IN the County of Monmouth in Wales , in divers parts a number of Non-conformists being assembled together , not regarding in what place they meet , whether in field , garden , orchard , barne , kitchin , or high waies , being ( as they teach ) as available to their devotion as the Church : where by their doctrine they perswade their auditory to contemne the prayers of the Church , and the Preachers of the Gospell ; also avowing their owne zealous prayers to have such power with God , as that they dare chalenge him extempore . By which leud perswasion of theirs they have drawne divers honest mens wives in the night times to frequent their Assemblies , and to become of most loose and wicked conversation , and likewise many chast Virgins to become harlots , and the mothers of bastards ; holding it no sinne for a brother to lye with a brothers wife ; as also a virgin gotten with childe by a brother not to be the worse , but by another , then by the wicked , and so consequently a sinne . And first of Christenings ; Which is that the Father shall bring his child to such of that sect as shall professe himselfe to be a minister , who shall take the child into his hands and wish the Father to name him , and being named , the Minister useth to cut the child in the eare untill it shall bleed , and then after ( delivering the child to the Father ) saith , by such a name thou child shall be called ; in which action they use neither the sprinkling of water , signe of the crosse , God fathers nor God mothers , nor any of the prayers in the Common prayer booke appointed to be used for that purpose ; and they will allow of no churching of women by any meanes . The manner of their Mariages Is , that he that taketh upon him the place of a Minister , shall aske the man that is to be married , if he wil have such a maide or woman to be his wedded wife , who saying that he will , hee also usually asketh the woman that is to bee married if that she will have that man to be her husband , who saying that she will ; then their Minister will usuall say , goe together and multiply ; in which action they never use the plighting of troth , ring , praiers , or ceremonies whatsoever . Of Burialls . They wil allow of no praiers or ceremonies at all at the burying of the dead , but give directions that the body be throwne into a pit , much like a thing nothing worth : And being that these sects in all things are inclined to maintaine contradictions as is before said , touching the points of salvation , so they will in all other things ; And ( inter alia ) command the dead to bee laid in the ground acrosse the Church or Churchyard , or with their heads toward the East , but never with their feete Eastward , as the ancient custome was . Of a Pavier ( being one of the zealous Brothers , seeing one of the Pastors of that sect get 20. l ’ . under colour of cancelling of sins ) that by his owne practice in the like nature got 3. Cheeses and 9. l ’ and by an accident escapt hanging in the earning therof , as followeth . The Pavier or zealous brother , being very intimate with the grand Doctors of that unsanctified discipline , and being privy to most of their waies and secrets , and hearing it taught at one of their Coventicles or meetings , that it was a great sinne for a woman to conceale any mony from her husband ( which exercise being finished ) one of the women of that auditory acquainted the Teacher , that she was guilty of that sinne , in regard that she concealed 20. l ’ . from her husband , & demanded what she should doe to be forgiven of that sinne , who commanded her to bring the mony to him , promising so to dispose thereof amongst the people , that her offence in that behalfe should be pardoned , which the simple woman did , whereby she and the poore were cosened by a knave . How the Pavier taking this president of the holy man of God his practice , cozened three women of their cheeses . Who speedily repaired unto three rich women of his neighbours ( that he knew to be well stored with good cheese which he wanted ) and made them believe that they were such heynous sinners against God , that if speedy meanes should not be made for the remission thereof , they were in the state of damnation ; whereat the poore women being put into a great fright earnestly besought the Pavier ( who they conceived to be a learned man full of sanctitie and a detester of vice ) to find out how Gods wrath might be appeased , and their sinnes remitted ; who ( after much intreatie and promises of rewards ) told the women that first they should confesse their sinnes , and that according to the quantity thereof , meanes should be made for the remission therof : and being demanded how and to whom their transgressions should bee acknowledged whereby the quality therof might be evident , wished each of them to fetch him down a cheese of the biggest they had , and scales to weigh them in , which being weighed and notice taken of the weight thereof ; the Pavier did cut a round circle in the middle of every one of the cheeses , and tooke out the cheese within those circles in lumps unbroken ; insomuch that there was a round hole in the middle of every of the said cheeses almost through ; and thereupon the Pavier delivered every woman her owne cheese againe charging every of them by the next morning to confesse all their sinnes in those holes and that he would then come to them , and in the meane time would goe home and pray for them , and study meanes for the remitting of their iniquities , and did take home with him the lumps taken out of the cheese , and cut off all the cheese thereof neere from the rine , and made round lumps of lead fit for the filling of them holes , which he took in his pocket the next morning , and comming to the women , they brought their cheeses to him , saying that they had confessed all their misdeeds that they could remember that ever they did , whereupon the Pavier wished them to fetch scales thither to weigh the cheeses , and in the meane time cunningly clapt the lead into the holes which he covered with the rine of cheese that he had in his pocket , which ( being weighed ) fame exceeded the weight they were of the day before , whereby the Pavier expressed unto them , that the quality of their sinnes appeared to be so great , that if speedy meanes wore not eftsoones observed for the remitting thereof , doubtlesse they should prese them downe to hell , and therefore the Pavier for to banish the multitude of their confessed sinnes from off the face of the earth , tooke the cheeses and threw them over a great bridge into a great river called Eboy , wherehence the Paviers wife and children by his directions tooke them up and feasted upon them a goodwhiles after . What meanes the Pavier prescribed to have the Womens sinnes forgiven , and how he cozned them of 9. l ’ . by promising to die for their sinnes and how be was like to be hanged by a boy in earning the mony . Vpon a serious conference betwene the Pavier and the women , he made it appeare unto them that every sinne was mortall and that therefore there ought to be a death before those sinnes could be blotted out of the sight of God ; whereat the women being in a perplexity not knowing what to say , desired him to invent some other way whereby they might save their lives , and promised to give any content ; wherupon the Pavier standing stedfast upon his former words , told them that there must be a death had before God would bee satisfied for their transgressions , and that he loved them so well that he for a reasonanable reward would die for them rather then they should remaine in the state of damnation for their misdeeds , whereat the women became very joyfull , giving him many thanks , brought three pound a peece , which he received , and was the only thing he aimed at , and presently thereupon tooke a little stoole and a rope with him into an upper room in one of the womens houses where spying a crosse beame tyed the rope about it , making it ready for to be hanged therein , for to purchase a pardon for the womens transgressions . Whereupon he ( together with the women , having joyned in fervent prayers ) stood upon the stoole , and telling them that the spirit was then strong with him , did put the rope about his necke , and wished the women to goe into the next roome , and pray for his happinesse in so great a taske . And when as they should heare him groane , they should helpe him downe , for that by that time satisfaction would bee made , and their sinnes absolutely forgiven . And so away the women went as he had bid them , leaving him upon the stoole with the rope about his necke ; instantly thereupon a sonne of the woman of the house ( being a pretty big youth , in regard of much whispering that he spied up and downe the house , stealing up staires to see the mystery thereof ) saw the Pavier standing upon the top of a stoole , with his backe towards him , and his necke in a rope , and in a manner playing therewith : at the sight whereof the youth calling to minde that the Pavier had been a meanes to procure him to be whipt at schoole divers times for playing at Tennis and Cat upon the Sunday , intended to be revenged upon him then , and suddenly shifted the stoole from under the Paviers feet , and runne away , leaving him there swinging , in a way indeed to performe what he had undertaken . But the women being near unto him , and hearing him schreech , speedily runne to him , and by much adoe made a shift to save his life . Now for the womens paines in hindring the Pavier to performe what hee had undertaken , I could finde in my heart in a manner to wish them the successe that the Pavier should have , had hee beene left alone , and not by them hindred in his proceedings . FINIS . 
A10834	----	A iust and necessarie apologie of certain Christians, no lesse contumeliously then commonly called Brownists or Barrowists. By Mr. Iohn Robinson, pastor of the English Church at Leyden, first published in Latin in his and the churches name over which he was set, after translated into English by himself, and now republished for the speciall and common good of our own countrimen Apologia justa et necessaria quorundum Christianorum, aeque contumeliose ac communiter, dictorum Brownistarum sive Barrowistarum. English Robinson, John, 1575?-1625. 1625 Approx. 178 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 37 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2004-08 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A10834 STC 21108 ESTC S102955 99838714 99838714 3102 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A10834) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 3102) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1475-1640 ; 1152:09) A iust and necessarie apologie of certain Christians, no lesse contumeliously then commonly called Brownists or Barrowists. By Mr. Iohn Robinson, pastor of the English Church at Leyden, first published in Latin in his and the churches name over which he was set, after translated into English by himself, and now republished for the speciall and common good of our own countrimen Apologia justa et necessaria quorundum Christianorum, aeque contumeliose ac communiter, dictorum Brownistarum sive Barrowistarum. English Robinson, John, 1575?-1625. [72] p. Successors of G. Thorp], [Amsterdam : Printed in the yeere of our Lord M.DC.XXV. [1625] A translation of: Robinson, John. Apologia justa et necessaria quorundum Christianorum, aeque contumeliose ac communiter, dictorum Brownistarum sive Barrowistarum. Place of publication and printer from STC. Reproduction of the original in the British Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). 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After proofreading, the encoding was enhanced and/or corrected and characters marked as illegible were corrected where possible up to a limit of 100 instances per text. Any remaining illegibles were encoded as <gap>s. Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Brownists -- Early works to 1800. Congregationalism -- Early works to 1800. 2004-04 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-05 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2004-06 Judith Siefring Sampled and proofread 2004-06 Judith Siefring Text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-07 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A IVST AND NECESSARIE APOLOGIE OF CERTAIN CHRISTIANS , no lesse contumeliously then commonly called Brownists or Barrowists . By Mr. IOHN ROBINSON , Pastor of the English Church at Leyden , first published in Latin in his and the Churches name over which he was set , after translated into English by himself , and now republished for the speciall and common good of our own Countrimen . Psal. 41. 2. O Blessed is he that prudently attendeth to the poore-weakling . Printed in the yeere of our Lord M.DC.XXV . A Iust and Necessarie APOLOGIE . THE cryme of Heresy none ought patiently to indure , sayd Ierom of ould ; and that not without cause : For whereas in other accusations , eyther a mans goods , or good name , or bodily life , at the most , is indaungered ; in this , the life of the soul ( which fayth is ) commeth in question . But well it is for the servants of Iesus Christ , that they have him ( their gratious Lord , and Saviour ) for their Iudg : by whose alone judgment ( notwithstanding all mens prejudices ) they shall stand , or fall for ever . And , if any others any where , surely I , and they with me , have need to get this divine comfort deeplie printed in our hearts ; whose profession giues occasion to many , as doth our condition liberty unto all , to spare no severitie of censure upon us . Four sorts of heavie freinds we have found , and felt in sorrowfull experience wheresoever we have become . The first whereof is the unhallowed multitude , who living without God in the world ; and walking themselvs perversly , and in the workes of darknes , cannot but hate , as the light it self , so all those , who haue receaved grace of God , to walke therein with good conscience . And as the Apostles in their dayes were everie where most vexed with the hatred of the unbeleeving Iewes , their own countrymen ; so are we by the like of ours like mynded . Of whom whilst the most do want their countrie for causes so unlike unto ours , no marvayl though there be no better concurrance of eyther affection , or action between us . The second is of them , who are enamoured on that Romish Hierarchie , as on a stately , and potent Ladie . Against which , and for the holy presbyteriall government , as Christs institution by his Apostles , whilst we doe in word and deed , give a free , & full testimonie ; alasse , with how many , and how great waves of affliction are we overwhelmed by their ●atred , and power ? Dem●trius of Ephesus , with his Silver-smiths , was of all other men , to the Apostle Paul ( opposing himself to the Majestie of Diana , and the●● profit withall ) the most infestuous . And who will marvayl , if we nothing obsequio●s to the Hierarchicall Diana ( in her self , magnificent enough , & enough advantageable unto hers ) be abhominable unto this kinde of people , aboue all others , even Atheists , Papists and most flagitious persons not excepted , whom they haue devout enough , and over , unto that Goddesse . A third kinde is of those , who so servily inbondage themselues , and their consciences , either to the edicts of Princes , or to the determinations of certaine doctors , or to both these jointly , as that they think nothing well done in case of R●ligion , which eyther these teach not , or they commaund not : and on the other side , almost any thing warrantable , which is commended by the one of them , or commaunded by the other . And as of these some are so transported with wa●pish zeale , as they can scarcely without a fit of an ague , eyther speak to , or think of him , who a litle steps out of their troad ; so others of them are so cunning , and wote so well how to make their market , that though they be indeed almost like mynded with us in all things , yet do they vehemently affect unchristian emnitie with us : not because they themselues judge us so deserving ; but others , whom therein they think it a poynt of their wisdom to gratify . The fourth , and last sorte are they , who through credulitie , and lightnes of beleif haue their ears open to the false , and feigned suggestions of slaunderous tongues . These men whilst they are over good , and easie towards the evill , and injurious , unto whom they give credence ; become injurious themselus to the good , and innocent : though in truth it be hard to say , unto which of three they doe the greatest wrong ▪ whether to their brethren , of whom they causelesly conceaue amisse , whilst either they greedily devour , or easily receave such false reports , & vituperies , as venemous tongues spit out against them : or to their own souls , which they thereby make accessorie to others mallice : or to the calumniators themselus , whom they put in heart to go bouldly on in reproaching the innocent , whilst they know , where to finde receavers for their slaunders , as do theeues for their stoln goods . Now , alasse , what sufficient bulwark of defence haue we ( poore people ) to oppose unto the violence of so many , and mightie adversaries ? First , and most ( as a brazen wall ) 〈◊〉 cons●●ence before God , and men ( so farre as humain frailtie will permit ) pure , and unsteyned . Next , thine equanimitie joyned with wisdom ( godly , and christian Reader ) : for whose cause we haue pe●●ed , and published this our just , and necessarie defence : lest being circumvented by prejudice , thou mayst happen to hate that whereof thou art ignorant : then which nothing in Tertullians judgment , is more uniust , no not though the thing in it self iustly deserue hatred . By this we do earnestly crave , that ( as thou safely mayst , so ) thou wilst ingenuously passe sentence upon us , and our profession and not by the unsavourie reportes eyther in word , or writing , of our adversaries whomsoever : who do most commonly take libertie to suggest against us ( underlings , ) not what in truth & conscience they should ; but what eyther fame reporteth , or ignorance suspecteth , or mallice inventeth , or proud contempt deems suiteing with our meannes and simplicitie . Two opprobries ( amongst others infinite ) haue beene of late by our adversaries cast upon us ; by which we are not onely occasioned , but after a sorte necessitated to the publishing of this our Apologie : lest by not resuting such criminations ( so great , and greivous ) we should seeme to acknowledg a cryme , as Cyprian speaketh . The former , by some of those , who in our owne countrie , are reputed the cheif Masters and Patrons both of Religion & truth : by whom there hath been , not a flying bruit spread amongst the multitude ; but a solemn accusation to them in speciall authoritie , framed against us : First , that we ( lewd Brownists ) do refuse , and reject one of the Sacraments : secondly , that we haue amongst us no ecclesiasticall ministrie , but doe giue libertie to everie mechanicall person to preach publiquely in the church . Thirdly , that we are in errour about the verie Trinitie . Fourthly , and lastly , that being become so odious to the magistrates here , as that we are by violence to be driven the countrie , we are now constreyned to seek some other , and farr parte of the world to settle in . The other contumelie is in a Duch Rhime without name , framed it may be , ( and as commonly it comes to passe ) between the cup and the wall , as sayth the proverb . This balad-maker comparing the receaved religion in the Dutch churches to a tree : the Sectaries in the countrie ( of which he nameth not a few ) to certayn beasts endeavouring this trees ruine , and overthrow , likens the Brownists to a litle worme , gnawing at the root thereof ; and not having lesse will , but lesse power to hurte , then the residue . Wee are indeed wormes and not men , the reproach of men , and despised of the people , whom high and low , and all that will , may without daunger , tread , and trample under foot . But to giue thee satisfaction ( Christian and indifferent Reader ) whosoever thou art , that chusest rather to take knowledg of mens innocencie , then to condemn the same unknown ; and that it may appear unto thee , how alike unhonest our adversaries are in their accusations , though of unlike condition in themselus , We do professe before God and men , that such is our accord in the case of religion , with the Duch reformed churches , as that we are ready to subscribe to all , and everie article of faith in the same church , as they are layd down in the Harmonie of Confessions of fayth , published in their name : one onely particle ( and the same not of the greatest weight ) in the sixth Article , touching the Scriptures , being conveniently interpreted , and conformably to it self , & the generall judgment of the learned amongst them . The scope of the Article is , ( as appears in the margent ) to distinguish between the books Canonicall , and Apocriphall , as they are called . Touching which Apocryphall notwithstanding it is judged , and affirmed , that they may be read in the Church . Which if it be meant of their private reading by the members of the church , we willingly assent : if of publique , pastorall , and ecclesiasticall reading , we are indeed otherwise mynded : neither admit we any other books to that dignitie in the church , then such as were penned by the Holy men of God , moved by the Holy Ghost . 2 Pet. 1 , 21. And as the Apostle Iames testified of the Iewes , that they had Moses read in the Synagogue everie Sabbath day : so we think it sufficient for the Christian assemblyes , that with Moses Christ , that is , the books of the new testament be joyned with the old , and they alone be read . Neither need we seek further , or for other Arguments to confirme our opinion , then the Article it self affoardeth us . The words thereof are these : Moreover , we put a difference between the Holy writings , and those which they call Apocryphal , to wit , so as the Apocryphall may indeed 〈◊〉 read in the church , & that it may be lawfull to take instructions from ●hem , so far sorth , as they agree with the canonicall books : but such 〈…〉 hand is their authoritie , or firmnes , that upon their testimonie any doctrine of faith , and Christian Religion may be founded , much lesse that they haue force to infringe , or weaken the others authoritie . And first , if the Apocriphall books be publiquely read in the Church , as well as the Canonicall , the difference which in word is professed , seems indeed by this so reading them , to be taken away : since the selfe same religious act ( viz. publique reading ) is performed about the one and other , although not altogether to the same end . And if publique reading of the Canonicall Scriptures be commanded of God in his worship , either the reading of these Apocripha books is a parte of Gods worship also , ( which the Belgick Churches do not beleiv ) or els they must be unlawfull to be read publiquely in the Church , especially comming together for that onely end of worshipping God. Publiquely , I say ; for the private reading of them , as of other books , comes not under the respect of worship properly , but of an act , and exercise preparati●● unto worship , as both Law●ers , and Divines speak . Secondly , in this verie Article , the Canonicall bookes , as opposed to the Apocriphall , are called holy writeings . The Apocriphall then are not holy , as not being hallowed to this end , that is not commaunded of God in the holy writeings of the Prophets , and Apostles . Now what haue the holy assemblies to do , especially convening , and meeting together for the solemn worship of God , and exercising themselus in the same , with books not holy , that is , not hallowed , or injoyned of God , for his most holy service● Thirdly , seeing these books are Apocriphall , that is , hidden , and concealed , their verie name may put them in minde of their duetie in concealing themselvs within the vaile of privacie . And surely no small immodestie it is in them , which ought to conteyn themselus in private use , and interteynment , thus bouldly to presse into publique assemblie . They must therefore change either their names , or their manners ; as women by their sex , so they by their name , well expressing their nature , are inhibited all libertie of speaking in the church . I●d , and conclude out of our countrie-man M. Broughton , that those Apocriphall books are so stuffed with trifles , fables , lyes and superstitions of all sorts ; that the midle place between the ould and new Testament , as ill becomes them , as it would do a Turkish slaue , and leaper , between two the noblest Princes of all Europe . But to return whence I dig●essed . Seing that ( as appears in the preface ) the intention of the Belgick Churches was , as in divulging their Confession , to render a reason of the hope , which is in them , and plainly to make known their perswasion in the matter of fayth ; so also in publishing the Harmony of Confessions , to giue all men to understand , and take knowledg of that most near conjunction which they haue with the sacred , and truely Catholique church of God , and all the holy and sound members thereof : by what tight , or rather injurie could we be excluded from the followship of the same churches , who do 〈◊〉 better accorde , and have greater congruitie with them in the matter of fayth & religion , then the greatest part of those , whose confessions they do publi●● to the veiw of all men , as the congnissance , and badges of their Christian consociation ? And with what conscience of a Christian , or rather licentiousnes of a Rhymer , could that adversarie traduce us to the world , as endeavoring the ruine of the reformed churches ? But perhaps , that which may be , is suspected to be by some , ( which also the false accuser doth insinuate in his libell against us ) and that , what in word we professe , we denye in deed ; and what we would seem to build with our tongues , we do , as it were , with our hands pull down . If so it be , and that in deed we be found to be such , I doe freely confesse , that no censure upon us can be too severe , no hatred more greivous then we do deserv . Now the guilt of this evill must cleav unto our fingers , if at all , one of these two wa●es , either in regard of our selvs , or of the reformed Churches . For our selvs , and our course of life , ( for necessitie compelleth , as it were foolishly to bable out that , wherein modestie perswadeth silence ) and how we converse with God , and men , whether publiquely in the Church , or privately in the family , we refuse not , by the grace of God bestowed upon frayl creatures , labouring of the same humain infirmities with other men , the search and censure of our most bitter adversaries , if not destitute of all , both honestie , and wisdom . Touching the reformed Churches , what more shall I say ? We account them the true Churches of Iesus Christ , and both professe , & practise communion with them in the holy things of God , what in us lyeth ; their sermons such of ours frequent , as understand the Dutch tongue ; the sacraments we do administer unto their known members , if by occasion any of them be present with us ; their distractions , and other evils we do seriously bewayl , and do desire from the Lord their holy , and firm peace . But happily , it wil be objected , that we are not like-mynded with them in all things , nor do approve of sundry practises in use amongst them , if not by publique institution ( which it seems they want ) yet by almost universall consent , and uniform custome . I graunt it ; neither doubt I , but that there are many godly , and prudent men in the same churches , who also dislike in effect the things which we doe : and amongst other things , this mal●part , and unbridled bouldnes of unskilfull men , who make it a very May-game to passe most rash censure upon the fayth , and so by consequence , upon the eternall salvation of their brethren , and to impeach their credit , whom they neither do , nor perhaps willingly would know : lest that which they lust to condemn unknown , they should be constreyned to allow , if they once knew it : and withall to disallow that , into which they themselvs haue been led formerly by common errour of the times . Which maladie is also so frequent , and ordinarie , as that it may truely be said of many , that they then think themselus most acceptable unto God , when they can make their brethren ( differing from them in some smaller matters ) most odious unto men . This rageing plague except the Lord God in mercie asswage , and bend the mindes of godly , and modest men ( the Ministers of his word ) to put to their helping hand that way , it wi● without all doubt , come to passe , ( which God forbid ) that the multitude of Christians will come to judg of their estate with the Lo●● not so much by the christian vertues , which themselvs indeed have as which they imagine others want . But that it may appear unto thee ( Christian Reader ) wherein 〈◊〉 do dissent from the Dutch reformed Churches , and upon wha● grounds : and that none may take occasion of suspicion , that the things are either greater , or more absurd , for which those hateful● Brownists are had by many in such detestation , then indeed an● truth they are , I will breifly , as I can , present unto thy christian vei● either all , or the most , & our greatest differences , with the ground● thereof . CHAP. I. Of the largenes of Churches . AND first , it is evident , that the most , especially cittie-churches , are so great and populous , as that two or three dive● temples are not sufficient for one , and the same Church to meet● at once . We on the contrarie , so judg , that no particular churc● under the New Testament , ought to consist of more members , the● can meet together in one place ; because , 1. The Holy Scriptures speaking definitely of the politicall , or ministeriall , commonly called , visible church , instituted by Christ and his Apostles , by his power , understand none other then on● congregation convening , and comming together , ordinarie at least in one place . Math. 18 , 17 , 20. gathered together in my name : wi●● 1 Corinth . 5 , 4. when you are come together . Act. 2 , 44. Al● that beleeved were together : and chap. 5 , 12. They were all with one accord in Salomons porch . Also chap. 6 , 2 , 5. and chap. 13 , 1 , 2. with ●4 , 27. and 14 , 23. with Tit. 1 , 5. Act. 15 , 4 , 22 , 25. and 21 , 22. So 1 Corinth . 11 , 20. when yee therefore come together in one , to wit place , not minde , as some conceipt , for from that the Corinthians were to far : and lastly chap. 14 , 23. If the whole church come together into some place . 2. There is then had the most full , and perfit communion of the body in the holy things of God , which is the next and immediate end of the visible Church , when all the members thereof do convene , and assemble together in some one place . And if nature , as Philosophers teach , ever intend that which is most persit , much more grace . Now that the church ( commonly called visible ) is then most truely visible indeed , when it is assembled in one place ; and the communion thereof then most full , and intire , when all its members inspired , as it were , with the same presence of the holy ghost , do from the same Pastor , rec●av the same provocations of grace , at the same time , and in the same place : when they all by the same voice , ( banding as it were together ) do with one accord pour out their prayers unto God : when they all participate of one , and the same holy bread ; and lastly , when they all together consent unanimously , either in the choice of the same officer , or censuring of the same offender , no man admitting a due thought of things , can make doubt of . 3. We have the Apostle Paul giving it in charge to the Elders of everie particular Church ( as was that of Ephesus ) that they take heed unto al the flock , whereof the holy ghost made them Bishops , or overseers , to feed the church of God , which he hath purchased with his own blood . But surely , as that flock is verie inordinate , if not monstrous , which for the largenes thereof , neither ever doth , nor possibly can feed together ; so that sheepheard of the Lords flock seemeth not aright , and as he ought , to fulfill his charge , which doth not at the least , everie Lords day , minister unto the same , the wholesom food of Gods word . Ad hereunto , that in these huge and vast flocks , the governers cannot take knowledg of the manners of the people private , or publick ; no nor so much , as of their presence at , or absence from the church assemblies : whereby what domage cometh unto true pietie , any man may easily conjecture , and miserable experience makes too too manifest in the reformed Churches . I conclude therefore , since ( as Iunius sayth ) it concerneth the Pastour throughly to know the church committed unto him , the persons , their works and courses , without the knowledg of which things , he shall profit them no more then a tincking cymball , &c. that it were a point of good provision both for the conscience of the officers , and edification of the people , that a division were made of the cittie-churches , which by continuall accession of members , are thus grown out of kinde , into different , and distinct congregations , under their certain , and distinct Pastours , and Elders . If any object , that there is one visible , and catholick Church , comprehending as the parts thereof , all the particular Churches , and severall congregations of divers places ; as there is one Ocean , or Sea , dive●sly called , according to the divers regions by whose shores it passeth ; and that therefore this matter is not worth labour spending about it , I answer , First , that the Catholick church neither is , nor can be called visible : since onely things singular are visible , and discerned by sence : whereas universals , or things catholick , are either onely in the understanding , as some are of minde , or as others think better , are made such , to wit universals , by the understanding , abstracting from them all circumstanstiall accidents , considering that the kindes intelligible have their existence in nature , that is in the Individuals . 2. The Catholick church , with due reverence unto learned ned men be it spoken , is verie unskilfully said to be one , as the sea is one . For , first , it is expressedly said Gen. 1 , 9 , 10. that the waters which were under the heauens , were gathered into one place , or conceptacle , which God called Sea , or seas . But the Catholick church , which is said to comprehend al particular congregations in her bosom , is not gathered together into one place , nor ever shall be , before the glorious coming of Christ. 2. The Ocean is a body so continued , as that all , and everie part thereof is continually fluent , so as the self same waters , which in their flux do make one sea , do in their reflux by contrarie windes , make another , and so contrariewise . But thus to affirm of particular churches , and their materiall constitutive cause , were most absurd . 3. If some one particular sea were drawn drie , or should fail his course , a disturbance of all the rest would necessarily follow ; But and if the sea should in divers places at once happen to be exhausted , or drawn drie , there would then be a fayling of the Ocean : neither were the waters now gathered into one place , neither made they one sea , and body of water , either continued , or conjoyned . But now , on the other side , upon the defection , or dissipation of this or that particular church , no such impediment should come in the way , but that the rest might hould their full course , as before . Yea , I adde moreover , if all , and everie particular assembly in the world should languish , and fall away , ( one onely excepted ) that ( onely ) one did still remain the true , & entire Church of Christ , without any either subordination , or coordination , or dependencie spirituall , save unto Christ alone . The reason is plain , because this singular , and sole assembly may under Christ the head , use , and enjoy everie one of his institutions : the communion of Saints combyned together in solemn , and sacred covenant , the word of God , Sacraments , Censures , and ministrations whatsoever by Christ appointed , and therewith the same Christs most gratious presence . And upon this ground it is , that the Apostle Paul doth intitle the particular congregation , which was at Corinth , and which properly , and immediately he did instruct , and admonish , to the body of Christ , the temple of God , and one virgin espoused to one housband Christ. We may not therefore under pretence of antiquitie , unitie , humain prudence , or any colour whatsoever , remove the auncient bounds of the visible and ministeriall church , which our right fathers , to wit , the Apostles , have set , in compar●son of whom , the most ancient of those , which are so called , are but infants , and beardlesse , as one truely , and wittily sayth . There is indeed one church , and as the Apostle speaketh , one bodie , as one spirit , one hope of our calling , one sayth , one baptism ; that is , of one kinde , and nature ; not one in number , as one Ocean . Neither was the church at Rome in the Apostles dayes , more one with the Church of Corinth , then was the baptism of Peter one with Pauls baptism , or then Peter , and Paul were one . Neither was Peter or Paul more one , whole , intire , and perfit man ( consisting of their parts essentiall , and integrall ) without relation unto other men ; then is a particular congregation ( rightly instituted , and ordered ) a whole , intire , and perfit Church immediately , and independently , in respect of other Churches , under Christ. To conclude , since the Pastor is not a minister of some part of a Church , but of the whole particular Church , Act. 20 , 28. Attend to the whole Flock , or Church , whereof the holy Ghost hath made you Bishops &c. if the ministers office be to be confined within the circle of a particular congregation , then also the ministeriall church it self . Now the Pastors office is either circumscribed within these bounds , or els the Angell of the Church of Ephesus was also the Angell of the Church of S●●rna ; and so the Pastour of this Church is also the Pastour of that ; and by consequence , of all ; that is , everie Pastour is an universall Bishop , or Pope by office , if not for exeq●ution , yet for power ; according to which power , we are to judg of the office . What then ? will some man say . Is it not lawfull for a Pastour to exequute his pastorall office but in the congregation over which he is set ? I answer with the Apostle No man taketh this honour unto himself , but he that● is called of God , as Aaron , Hebr. 5 , 3 , 4. It is not lawfull for thee ( reverend brother ) to do the work of a Pastour where thou art no Pastour , lest thou arrogate to thy self that honour , which apperteyns not unto thee . Thou art called , that is elected , and ordeyned a Pastour of some particular Church , and not of all churches . It is not onely lawfull , but requisite , that the Pastour of one Church ( or ●aither he that is the Pastour ) and so any other member , imparte the gift either spirituall , or bodily , which he hath receaved , to other churches , out of the common bond of charitie , in which he is obliged : not so , to exequute a publique office over them by the prerogative of authoritie , which he hath not but onely over his owne . We will illustrate this by a similitude . Any citizen of Leyd●n may enjoy certain priveledges in the cittie of Delph , by vertue of the politick combination of the united provinces , and cittie , under the supream heads thereof the States generall ; which he is bound also to help and assist with all his power if necessitie require ; but that the ordinarie magistrate of Leyden should presume to exequute his publique office in the cittie of Delph , were an insolent , and unheard of usurpation . The verie same , and not otherwise , is to be said of Pastors , and particular Churches , in respect of that spirituall combination mutuall under their chief , and sole Lord Iesus Christ. CHAP. II. Of the administration of Baptism . THE Dutch Reformed Churches ( as is evident by their practise compared with then profession ) are neither so true unto their own grounds , as they ought , neither do they so well provide for the dignitie of the thing , whilst they administer the Sacrament of Baptism to the infants of such , as are not within the Covenant , nor have either parent a member of any Church , because 1. Baptism now ( as circumcision of ould ) is the seal of the covenant of God with the faythfull , and their seed , I will be thy God and the God of thy seed . Genes . 17 , 9. and the seal of the righteousnes of fayth . Rom. 4 , 11. and is one , as there is one sayth , and one baptism . Ephes. 4 , 4 , 5. and therefore ought not to be administred to others , then those within the compasse of the same covenant : nor but upon fayth coming between , either of the partie to be baptized , or of one parent at the least . If any shall answer , that this gratious promise of God is not to be restreined to the next immediate children , but is extended euen to those , who follow a fa●r off , I grant it , except infidelitie , or other sin come between ; by which the parents with themselvs break off their seed externally & actually from the cōmunion of the church , & holy things thereof . And if we be not to insist in the next , and immediate parent , why in the grand-father , or great-grand-father , and so for the rest , till we climbe up , as high , as to No●h himself ? Whereupon it should follow , that not the Infants of Iewes , nor of Turks , no nor of Gentiles neither , should have baptism denyed them . Surely the grace of Christ must needs be universall , and wherein all have interest , if the seal thereof apperteyn unto all . Neither should the Church ( amongst whose sacred furniture Baptism is ) by this rule be any more the house of God , peculiar to his children and servants ; but more like a common In , whose doore stands wide open to all that passe by the high way . 2. The Apostle 1 Corinth . 7 , 14. upon this ground , that the one parent is a beleever , avoweth the childe holy : which otherwise he pronounceth impure , in respect of the Covenant , and holynes thereof ( leaving unto God his secret judgments ) . Now what have the impure , and unhallowed to do with the holy things of God ? And what hath the Pastour , and sheepheard in holy things to do with them , who are no portion of the Lords flock ? What have I to doe ( sayth the Apostle ) to judg them that are without ? Do not ye judg them that are within ? So ( reverend brethren ) what have you to do , to baptize them that are without ? do you not baptize them that are within , and them alone ? In the number of whom yet you reckon not those infants ( though baptized by you ) nor belonging to your charge . Whence also ( God knoweth ) it cometh to passe , for the most part , that they who are thus by you baptized into the name of the Lord , are by their godlesse parents education made the servants of Sathan . 3. The Baptism of Infants , in all soundnes of judgment , serveth , and that immediately for the comfort of their godly parents ; whose hearts it filleth with no small joy , whilst they behould the gratious promise of God made to them and their seed , ratified and confirmed by this seal : even as of ould the circumcision of Isaak was granted , and injoyned by God unto Abraham his , and our father , first and immediately , for the confirmation of his fayth . Whence I conclude , that the seal of the righteousnes of faith ( which baptism is ) doth no more belong to the seed of godlesse parents , then doth the comfort flowing from the righteousnes of fayth unto the parents themselvs . Whom as it would effectually move to more serious , and sad thoughts of their own estate with God , if they beheld their infants ( so dear unto them ) excluded thorough their default from the comfortable ●eal of Gods Covenant ; so can they not but , by the undue administration of the same , take occasion of hardening themselvs in their accustomed perversnes . I conclude then with Tertullian speaking ( as Iunius interprets him ) of the children of such , as were strangers from the covenant of God , Let them come , when they are grown to year●s ; let them when they have learned , and are taught wherefore they come ; let them then be made Christians , when they can know Christ. CHAP. III. Of written Leyturgies . VVE cannot but mislike that custome in use , by which the Pastour is wont to repeat and read out of a prayer-book certayn formes , for his and the Churches prayers , and that for these reasons , 1. Because this externall mean and manner of worshiping God in prayer is no where found in the written word , ( by the prescript whereof alone he is to be worshipped ) whatsoever either the Iewes fable of the Leyturgie of Ezra ; or the Papists of S. Peters , or S. Iames Leyturgies . Yea , contrariwise , I add for overplusse , that it did not seem good to the Apostles , the last penmen of the 〈◊〉 . ghost , that any such prescript form for such end should come in use , in the churches . And this seemeth unto me verie clear , from the former Epistle of Paul to Timothy , chap. 2 , 1 , 2. The kings of the earth in those dayes , and such as were in authoritie under them , being , as it were , so many sworn enemies of the name of Christ , this conceipt might easily ( and it seems did ) creepe into the mindes of divers Christians , that these kindes of men were raither to be prayed against , then for , by the servants of Christ. And now , what was the medicine prescribed by the Apostle for this malad●e in that Epistle written to Timothy for that verie end , that he might know how to converse in the church of God ? Did he now either send Timothy to any Leyturgie formerly let forth for his own and others da●●tion ? Or did he himself frame any for the purpose , whose b●●ten troad the Churches following afterwards should not erre ? Nothing lesse : although a more ●it , and full occasion for that busines scarce be offered : which without doubt , Paul would ●o more have l●t slip , th●n did the other Apostles , th●t which was more light , for the introduction of Deacons , if ●t had seemed good to th● H. Ghost ( by whose singe● he was guided in the ordering of the Churches ) that any such book-prayer should have come into use . Three things especially are objected , which must here be cleared . The first is , that David , and other Prophets penned the book of Psalmes for the mother Church of Israell . The second , that Christ himself delivered to his disciples a certain form of prayer , commonly called , The Lords prayer . The third , that Moses from the Lord Numb . 6. gave direction to Aa●on , and his sonnes , in what form of words they should blesse the children of Israel . I answer first generally , that the consequence followeth not from the authoritie of Christ , and of Moses , and of the Apostles , in ordeyning these , and these forms of divine worship , for the like authoritie in ordinance Bishops , and Pastours , to ordeyn other , and divers forms , for the same end . What can be spoken more insolently ? Christ the Lord , Moses , the Prophets , and Apostles being immediately , and infallibly guided by the spirit of Christ , have prescribed certain set formes of Gods worship ; therefore others though not immediately and infallibly guided by the same spirit , may also prescribe them . Why may they not by this argumentation , as well frame us a new Canon of holy Scriptures , considering that even th●se verie formes , wherewith also they equalize their own , are parts , and portions of the same Scriptures . More particularly . And first for Psalms . I deny that there is th● same reason of a prayer , and of a Psalm ; or ( whereupon the difference hangeth ) that singing , and praying are all one . For the question is not , which I desire the Reader once for all to bea●●●n minde ) eyther of the internall affection of him which singeth , or prayeth , or of the subject matter of the song or prayer : but of the externall act , and exercise of praying and singing . Now these two exercises both the holy Scriptures , and common sence in everie man , that pleaseth but to open his eyes , and look upon them , do plainly difference . For first , if to sing be to pray , then whosoever singeth prayeth : but how far from truth this is , the Psalmes of David , 1 , 2 , and many others in which not the least parcell of prayer is to be found , do plainly evince . 2. Is any man sad amongst you , ( sayth the Apostle ) let him pray : is he merry let him sing . To pray then , and to sing , are not the same , nor which do agree ( to wit primarily ) with the same constitution of the minde . 3. In prayer the Pastours voyce is onely heard , unto which the people , as the Apostle teacheth , are to add their Ame● but in singing , all the multitude have as well their part for tunable voice , as the pastour himself . Neyther can divers possibly sing together , without confusion , but by a certain , and set form both of words , and syllables : which yet may be done in church prayer , and is everie where . 4. We have the same Apostle els where teaching us thus : Speaking to your selvs in Psalms , Hymnes and spiritual songs , &c. And again , Let the word of Christ dwell in you plenteously , with all wisdom , teaching and admonishing yourselvs mutually in Psalms Hymns , &c. In singing then we doe speak to our selvs , or one to another mutually : but in praying , neither to our selvs , nor to our brethren , but unto God alone . And the reason hereof is evident . When as we read or sing the Psalms of David ( for what other thing is it to sing out of a book , then to read with a loud , and harmonious voice ? of which Harmonie singing is a kinde ) : these self same Psalms in this verie use do still remain , and so are read or sung , as a part of the word of God in the holy Scriptures : and in which God speaketh unto us : whereas on the other side , we do speak unto God , in all our prayers , whether mentall onely , or vocall withall . 5. Even these verie Psalmes , whose matter is prayer , and thanksgiving , were framed , and composed by the prophets into Psalms , and spirituall songs , for this verie end , that the men of God might in them teach us , as in the written word of God , whereof they are parts , both what petitions they in their distresses put up to the Lord , and also what thanksgiving they returned upon their deliverance , that so we in reading & singing them , might instruct and admonish ourselvs both publiquely , & privatly , whether by way of doctrine , or admonition , or consolation , for the promoteing of the glorie of God in our hearts . Lastly , that I may discend unto them , who are onely taught by experience ; If any going out of the temple , wh●lst the Church were singing a Psalm , either before , or after sermon , being asked of one that met him , what the church were then doing , should answer that it were at prayer ; would he not be judged by all men to tell a ly ? But altogether without cause , if to sing be to pray , as many imagine . Touching the Lords prayer . We deny it to be the meaning of Christ , teaching his dise ples , when they pray to say , Our father , &c. to binde them , and the Holy Ghost in them , by which they ought to pray , to a certain form of words , & sillables , which they should repeat by heart , or ( which is our question , ) read out of a book . Because , 1. the two Euangelists Matthew , and Luke of whom both the one and other did aright both understand , and expresse the meaning of Christ , do not precisely keep the same words . 2. By these words , when you pray , is meant , whensoever you pray : whereupon it should follow , that we were tyed to this stint of words alone , and alwaies : and so might lawfully use none other , except it be lawfull for us sometimes to pray raither by the levell of our own dev●se , then of Christs prescript . The words therefore of Cyprian are good in a good sence . To pray otherwise then Christ hath taught , is not onely ignorance , but guilt , seeing he himself hath sayd , you reject the precept of God , that you may observ your own tradition . 3. Amongst the manie , and manifould prayers of the Apostles to be seen in the holy scriptures , this form of words is not found : and yet can it not be denyed , but they alwaies prayed as they were taught in this place by their Master Christ : whose meaning therefore it could not be to tye them necessarily to anie such certain of words . 4. It appears by the context , that the purpose of Christ is to speak of private , or raither secret prayer , and such as everie Christian apart from others , and in his closet , with the doore shut unto him , should pour out unto the Lord. Now that one alone , and by himself should say , Our father , seems not verie congtuous . Lastly , seeing of the like there is the like consideration , If the Apostle Iames in these words , Go to now , ye that say , to day or to morrow we will goe into such a cittie &c. and vers . 15. For that ye ought to say , if the Lord will , we shall live , and doe this or that , do neither simplie fault with the form of words , nor prescribe necessarily anie other , but onely ( to use Calvins words ) wakens them from their dream , who without respect of the divine providence , will make themselvs maysters of a whole yeare , when there is not a moment in their power : so neither are we to conceav that our Saviour Christ Math. 6. and Luke 11 doth injoin unto his anie set words to pray in , but onely shewes whither all our prayers and vowes ought to be referred , as with all other orthodox writers about this matter , the said Author speaketh : howsoever divers uns●kilfull men cease not still to sing unto us , euen to loathsomnes , the song , when you pray say , as the Papists do theirs , This is my bodie : as though the controversie were about the words , and not raither about the meaning of them . But for that we are verie odiously traduced by divers , as abhorring from this form , and that we will not ( as they use to speak ) say the Lords prayer , I will in few , and plain terms set down what our judgment is about it . 1. And seeing that , as the Poet hath it , the names do commonly suit with the things , we may see , and sorrow withall , in the phrases in common use about this most Christian duetie of prayer , what it is with the unhallowed multitude of Christians to pray , namely to say prayer , to read prayer , to hear prayer , and raither any thing then indeed to pray , that is , then to pour out the conceptions of a godly and devout minde unto God , from faith and feeling of our wants , by the holy Ghost . 2. We do affirm , that this form of words is unproperly , how commonly soever , called the Lords prayer : as neither being a prayer as it is the Lords , nor the Lords as it is a prayer . As it is of the Lord Christ , and so the Lords ( whether by himself uttered in words , or committed to writing by his Euangel●sts ) it hath the consideration , and respect of a sermon , and of Euangelicall doctrine , in which Christ taught his disciples ; and not of a prayer put up to his Father : as on the contrarie it neither was , nor could be used prayer wise by Christ , in so manie words ; with whose most persit sanctimonie it did not agree for him to say , forgive us our trespasses . 3. We do firmly beleiv , that all , and everie both Church and person is bound alwayes to pray , as Christ hath there taught : whether we respect the matter there propounded , or the affections there injoyned , or the commodious , and compend●ous simplicitie , which Christ our Saviour , and onely mayster , there opposeth , both to the vain bablings , and oft repetitions of the heathens : and that in these things , and them alone , the commandement of Christ doth consist , we both firmly beleiv , and confidently avow . 4. And lastly , we doubt not but that this verie form of words may be , and is rightly used in prayer unto God , provided there be neither opinion of necessitie , by which superstitious persons think themselvs stinted by the Lord to words , and sillables , nor of perfection , by which many are of minde , that they have then at the last , and not before prayed per●itly , when they have repeated this form of words . And it is well , if some spot of this myre cleav not to the fingers of many ministers ; which make it a matter of great conscience not to conclude their , and the churches prayers applyed specially to the present state of things , with this number , and measure of words . Which custom as it is used verie commonly , so in my judgment , with no great reason , for these two causes . First , it seems to crosse all good order , and method , by which men should d●scend from the more generall unto that which is more speciall : and not go the clean contrarie way , as in this they do . Secondly , Since the rule , according to Phylosophie , and good reason , is alwaies before the thing ruled , and that this form is by Christ inst●tuted , for this purpose , that it might be the rule , and squire of all our prayers , and as Tertullian saith , is premised , as the foundation of all our accessorie d●s●●es , me thinks the same should raither be used in the first place ; upon which as the same author hath it , everie one should build the circumstances of his occasioned requests . It remayneth that in a few words I answer that , which is by some objected touching those solemn blessings , at the first imparted by the Patriarks to their first born , and after by the Preists to Israel the first born of God. And to let passe , 1. that the composers , and imposers of the Leyturg●es now in use have not equall authoritie with Moses the man of God , not are th●● writings any way comparable with his : 2. That Moses did not prescribe unto the Priests a st●nt of words for blessing ( much lesse to be read out of a book ) but the substance of the thing ; which by manie Arguments , save that I studie for brevitie , might be proved . 3. If that were Moses his minde , and the Lords by him , the minister were bound to the same form of blessing upon the Israell of God now , which the church is : since there is nothing in it not morall , and perpetuall , or not concerning the church now , as then . I do answer this one thing , & the same in Calvins words , viz. that these blessings were not ordinarie prayers , but a lawfull author●tie divinely interposed to testifie the grace of election : which 〈◊〉 also confirms by divers reasons . Neither can anie man who considers the words of the text make question , but that the Priests in blessing ( Israel , not God ) do direct their speach unto Israel by way of promise , and not unto God by way of prayer . So blesse you ( saith Moses ) the children of Israel , saying unto them , The Lord blesse thee , &c. The same is to be judged of the salutations of the Apostles in their Epistles , ( whereof they are a part , and so a part of the holy Scriptures ) : albeit yet they in them , as the Preists in their blessings , desired to have their truly loving affection taken knowledg of by them to whom they wrote : and what good things they both desired at the hands of the Lord for them , and also promised them in his name . 2. We dislike all reading of prayer in the act of praying , as inconvenient , yea directly contrarie unto that act ? In prayer we do pour out matter , to wit the holy conceptions of the minde , from within to without ; that is , from the heart to God : on the contrarie , in reading , we do receav and admit matter from without to within ; that is from the book , into the heart . Let him that prayeth do that which he doth , not another thing , not a divers thing . Let the whole man , and all that he is , both in soul and bodie , be b●nt upon God , with whom he converseth . The eyes of the minde are lifted to God in prayer ; and why not the eyes of the bodie also ? both which ●e that prayeth , by intending them upon a book , both depresseth , & averteth from God. The Apostle exhorteth , that the men pray , lifting up pure hands to God in everie place . In like manner , ( besides the reason of the thing , we have the Patriarks , Prophets , Christ himself , with his Apostles , and disciples , for insample of lifting up the eyes to heaven in prayer . Not this gesture of body is simply necessarie but most convenient , ( save in some great temptation , and depression of minde , both to expresse , and further the intention of a godly heart . Let devout and learned men ( if they please , commit to writing their holy meditations , and secret conferences with God , as did Austin , and others amongst the ancients ; and many of later time● which may be read , and that with no small benefit both by Pastour and people ; but privately , and for better preparation unto prayer . Now the preparation unto prayer is verie unseasonable at the self-same time of the solemn performance thereof ; and unreasonable in , and by the self same act . 3. Seeing that publique prayer ( as Bucanus saith ) is a second part of the ministrie ; as also that amongst the gifts of the holie Ghost , wherewith the Pastor is indued from above , that is not small , not to be despised , by which he is able conveniently both for matter , and form , to conceav a prayer according to the churches present occasion ; , and necessities ; by the reading of this prescript form that ( truly excellent ) gift giuen of God for this end is made void , and of none use , and the spirit ( contrarie to that which ought to be ) extinguished . The manifestation of the spirit ( saith the Apostle ) is given to everie one ( especially to everie Pastour ) to profit withall . But he who reads a form of prayer conceaved , and consigned by another , doth not manifest the pastorall gift , ( for of the internall affection our question is not ) of the spirit given to him to profit withall , but to that other by whom the form of prayer was ind●ted . 4. If to read such a form of prayer be to pray aright , and pastour like no probable reason can be rendred , wherefore to read a sermon , or homilie , is not as well to preach aright , and as is required of the Pastour of the Church . Which so being , small reason had the Apostle , treating of the ecclesiasticall ministerie , which principally consists in these two exercises , to crie out , as he did , who is sufficient for these things ? For who is not sufficient even of the vulgar sort ? who can not read a Leiturgie , and an Homilie ? 5. The spirit ( saith the same Apostle , speaking of all Christians ) helpeth our infirmities , for we know not what to pray , as we ought . Yes , Paul , ( with your l●av right well ; for we have in our prayer-book , what we ought to pray , word for word , whether the spirit be present or not . What then is to be done in this busines ? That which Tertullian saith the Christians of his time did . We pray ( saith he ) without any to prompt us , because we pray from the heart . But he who reads his prayers , or rather the prayers of him that p●nned them , and his lesson out of a book , hath one that prompts him , and that diligently , both what , and how much , and after what manner , and with what words and sillables he ought to pray . Lastly , if it would be just matter of shame to any earthly Father , that his childe , who desired of him bread , fish , or an egge , should need to read out of a book , or paper , Father , pray you give me bread , fish , or egge ; how much more contumel●ous is it , to our heauenly father , and his holy spirit , wherewith he furnisheth all his children , specially his ministers according to their place , that an help so unworthie , and more then babe●sh , and indeed the instrument of a foolish sheepheard , namely a bare reader ( with which kinde of vermin Rome , and England are pestered ) should be used by such godly , & learned pastors , as wherewith the reformed churches are furnished CHAP. IIII. Of the Ecclesiasticall Presbyterie . VVE do so acknowledg , and approve of , as divinely instituted , the Presbyte●●es of the particular churches , as with all we judg them sundrie wai●es defective . As first we require : that all receaved into the colledg , and company of Elders , even those which are called governers , should be apt to teach , and able to exhorte with sound doctrine , and convince g●●nsayers , and that not onely privately , or in the consistorie , but in the publick assemblie also , as the nature of their publique office requireth . I am not ignorant , what that learned man Gersom Bucer in his late treatise hath published about this matter , neither do I unwillingly assent thereunto : provided onely , that what he requires in those Elders , that they be able to performe publiquely , and in the church assembly , if not exactly , yet competently . A second defect , which we wish supplyed is , that of annuall , o● tryennuall or temporarie , they might be perpetuall , and for l●fe , ( except by some casualtie , or occurrence they be disabled ) as the pastours themselvs . This terme of years for the Elders administration in the Reformed Churches , the forenamed author in the same place doth not so much defend , as excuse ; but it seemeth raithe● needfull to have it reformed ( which is also the desire of the said learned man ) and that for these reasons . 1. The Apostle Paul calling unto him the Elders of the church of Ephesus to M●letum , doth pronounce of them all , as well the governers , as those that laboured in the word , that they were made Bishops or overseers of the same Church , by the holy Ghost . Now the authoritie of that the appo●nter ought to work in the appointed great conscience , not lightly to relinquish that charge , which by the disposition of the holy Ghost they had taken upon them . 2. The same Apostle doth in the same place admonish , and exhort the same Elders that they should take heed unto themselvs , and to all the fl●●k , lest the same , after his departure should unhappily be damnified , either by wolves entering in among them , or such as should rise up from themselvs speaking perverse things . Now if the date of their Eldership , & charge were shortly to be out , they might well think with themselvs , that the Apostles admonition for after times did not much concern them , whose term of office should so shortly be expired , and were perhaps to follow the Apostles departure at the heeles . 3. It was sacriledg for the Levites being consecrated to the Lord , for the service of the Tabernacle and Temple , to retire from the office undertaken by them , although ( age growing upon them ) they were exempted from some the more labo●●ous works of that ministration : How then is it lawfull for the Elders , or Deacons ( being now no more at their own disposing , but as the Levites of ould , the Lords sacred and consecrated ones ) to withdraw so lightly from his speciall service ? No man under the Law might change a beast , if clean , no not a better for a worse , if once hallowed to the Lord. How much lesse may the church then discharge her officers ( or they themselvs ) ministering faythfully , and as they ought ? Lastly , the Apostle Paul instructing the Church in Timothy to keep the commandement of Christ unrebukeable untill that his glorious appearing , doth not permit , no not to the widowes & D●aconesses to ●elinquish the office once taken upon them : unto whom for that verie cause he forbids mariage it self , otherwise permitted to all , and to some injoyned . How much lesse lawfull is it for the Elders , or Deacons of the church ( whose both condition , and ministerie is far more excellent ) for far lighter causes , to look back , and relinquish their vocation , wherein Christ hath in such sort placed them ? A third thing there is , and that of most moment , viz. that the Elders do not administer their publique office publiquely , as they should , but onely in their private consistorie . And first , the administrat on of everie office doth ●n right follow the nature of the same ; whether domesticall in the familie , or civill in the common wealth , or spirituall in the Church : the Elders office then being publique , requires answerable , and publique administrat on . Not that it is unlawfull for the Elders to convene , and meet apart from the bodie , and to deliberate of such things as concerns the same , and so to do sundrie things by vertue of their office , but because that is not sufficient , neither do they indeed fulfill their publique , and church - office , office , which in the Lord they have receaved , except as privately , and and in their consistorie , so also ( and that specially ) publiquely , and in the face of the congregation they exequute the same . 2. The Apostle beseecheth them of Thessalonica that they would in love highly esteem for their works sake , not onely them which laboured among them , to wit , in doctrine ; but them also , which were over them in the Lord , and admonished them . But of the work of their Elders which govern , the Reformed churches must needs be ignorant ; neither doe , or can they know , whether they be good , or bad . Their pastours they do prosequute with due love , & honour , out of their own certain knowledg of them and their work , but their Elders onely by hearsay . Lastly , the same Apostle warneth the Elders of ●phesus , that they attend & take heed to the whole flock , in which they were made Bishops . But it cannot be , that he should ministerially , as he ought , feed the whole church , whose voice the greatest part thereof never so much as once heareth . To lead , or receav a she●p now and then into the sheepfould , to confirm one that is weak , or correct one that strayeth , and that apart from the flock , is in no wise to feed the whole flock , as the Apostle requireth . And that this point may be made the more plain , let us discend unto some such particulars , as in which the Elders office seemeth specially to consist . And they are , the admitting of members into the church , upon profession of faith made , and the reproving and censuring of obstinate offenders , whether sinning publiquely , or privately with scandall . As we willingly leave the exequut on , and administration of these things to the Elders alone in the setled , and well ordered state of the church , so do we deny plainly , that they are , or can be rightly , and orderly done , but with the peoples privat●e and consent . For the first , Christ the Lord gave in charge to his Apostles to preach in his name remission of sins , and therewith life eternall : and that such Iewes , or Gentiles , as should beleiv , and repent , viz. professe holily faith and repentance , ( for to judg of the heart is Gods prerogative ) they should receav into the fellowship of the Church , and baptize . And that these all , and everie of them were publiquely , and in the face of the congregation to be administred , the Acts of the Apostles do plent●ously make known . And if Baptism , the consequent of the confession of faith , in them baptized , and the badg of our consociation with Christ and his Church , be to be celebrated publiquely , why is not the profession of saith proportionably ( although by the formerly baptized through a kinde of unorderly anticipation ) to be made publiquely also , and therewithall the consociation ecclesiasticall , as the former ? The covenant privately made , and the s●al publiquely annexed are disproportionate . I further add , that since persons admitted into the Church , are by the whole bodie , if not of enemies , at least of strangers become and are to be reputed b●ethren ●n Christ most nearly joyned , and they with whom , they are to call upon one common Father publiquely to participate of one holy bread , and with whom they are to have all things , even bodily goods after a sort common , as everie one hath need , it seemeth most equall , that not onely the Presbyters ( the churches servants under Christ ) but the whole commonaltie also should take knowledg in their persons , both of their holy profession of faith , and voluntarie submission made as unto Christ himself , so to his most holy institutions in his Church . To come to the second head . And 1. those who sin , that is , with publique scandall , rebuke publiquely , sayth the Apostle , that others also may fear . And if the Elders themselvs , of whom he speaketh , for whose credit the greatest care is to be taken much more any other , as Beza rightly observeth . And that not for this cause alone , that when the punishment comes to one , the fear might reach unto many , which yet wise men in all publique exequutions would haue carefully provided for , but also that both he that so sinneth may be the more ashamed , and others both within , and without may withall take knowledg , how litle indulgent the Church is to her own dearest ones in their enormous sins . 2. With this also it well conforteth , that Christ the onely Doctour of his Church would haue not onely sins scandalous committed in publique , publiquely reproved , and before the multitude , but even those which are private , obstinately persisted in , when he saith , Tell the Church , &c. I am not ignorant how diversly divers men do interpret these words : whilst some by the Church do understand the civill come of the Magistrate ; others the Hierarchicall Bishop , with his officials ; others the senate of Elders excluding the people . And thus whilst these strive for the power , and name withall of the church amongst themselvs , the church indeed , and which Christ the Lord meaneth is well nigh stripped both of power , and name . The first of these three interpretations I will not trouble my self with ; as being almost of all , and that worthily expleded , and rejected ; and aboundantly refuted by divers learned men : the two latter are to be aslau●t●d with almost the same weapons . The former of these two , though it be in it self the more different from Christs meaning , yet comes it in this circumstance now in consideration , the nearer the truth in our judgment , considered in its exequution : since neither the Bishops , nor their officials , Chauncelours , Commisaries , or other Court-keepers do exclude the people from their consistories , and courts : but to offer themselvs in their publique judgments , and censures to the ve●w of all , who please to be present thereat . And I think 〈…〉 of either amongst Gentiles or Iewes , or Christians ( be it spoken without offence ) before this last age , that publique judgments and other acts of publique nature , as these are , should be privately exercised , and without the peoples privitie . It was not so in Israel of ould , where by Gods appointment the Elders were to sit , and judg in the gates of the cittie : nor in the synagogues themselvs , from which manie are of minde , how truly I will not say , that the Christian Eldership was derived , after the Roman tyrannie had confined into them the Iewes civill conventions , and judgments ; nor in the primative church , no not in some ages after the Apostles , as might easily be proved out of Tertullian , Cyptian , and others , if I would trie the matter in that court : but it is much more safe , as Austin saith , to walke by the divine Scriptures . And first the word 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 church , originally Greek , answering to the Hebrew 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , doth primarily , and properly signifie a convention of citizens called from their houses by the publ●que c●yer , either to hear some publique sentence or charge given : but translated to religious use , denoteth an assemblie of persons called out of the state of corrupt nature into that of supernaturall grace , by the publishing of the gospell . Now the Elders , or presbyters ( as such ) are , and so are said to be , called , to wit , to their office of Eldership , but called out they are not , being themselvs to call out the church , and unto it to perform the cryers office . Neither do I think that the name Ecclesia , Church , hath been used by any Greek author , before the Apostles times , or in their daies , or in the age after them for the assemblie of sole governers in the act of their government , or indeed before the same governers had seazed into their own , & onely hands the churches both name and power . But you will say , as learned men use to do , that these Elders susteyn the person of the whole multitude , and supplie their room , for the avoiding of confusion ; and so are ●ightly , as commonly called The church representative . I answer . First , no godly , no nor reasonable man will affirm , that this representation is to be extended to all the acts of religion , or indeed to others , then these , which are exercised in the governing of the Church . What is it then ? The Elders in ruling , and governing the Church must represent the people , and ocupie their place . It should seem then , that it appe●teyns unto the people , unto the people primarily , and originally ( under Christ ) to rule and govern the church , that is , themselvs . But who will so say of a government not personall , but publique , and instituted , as the churches is ? 2. If the Elders in their consistorie represent the church , then whatsoever they either decree , or do agreeing to the word of God whether respecting faith or manners , that also the church decreeth and doth , though absent , though ignorant both what the thing is , which is done , and upon what grounds it is done by the Elders : this being the nature of representations , that what the representing doth within the bounds of his commission , that the represented doth primarily , and much more , as but using the other for his instrument . Now how dissonant this is to true faith and pietie , how consonant unto the Papists implicit faith , no man can be ignorant : and I had raither wise men should consider , then I aggravate . 3. The constant , and universall practise of the Apostles & Apostolick churches do quite crosse this consistorian course . The Apostle Paul , well acquainted with the meaning of Christ , doth 1 Cor. 5. so reduce into practise , the rule and prescript of his maister Matth. 18. or to use the words of the Bishop of Chester , There commaunds to bring into practise this power , In the name of Christ , with his spirit , as he seems to leav no place for doubting to him , who with diligence , and without prejudice , will compare together these two places , what the Lord meaneth , when he saith , Tell the Church , This our Apostle doth in that place reprove not the Elders or governers alone , but with them also the whole commonaltie and bodie , for tolerating the incestuous person amongst them . Which therefore accordingly , as his authoritie Apostolicall , and care for all the churches d●d require , he admonisheth , and directeth , that as mindefull both of the sinners repentance , and salvation , and therewith of their own puritie , they would exclude , by due order , that wicked man from their holy fellowship . And that by these words , ( when ye are come together ) the whole church is to be understood , manie , but heavie freinds to the peoples libertie , Iesuites , P●clatists , and others do graunt . But we will annex certain reasons for the further clearing of the thing . 1. They among whom the fornicatour was , who were puffed up , when they should have sorrowed , and out of the middest of whom , he was to be put , who had done that thing ; they were to be gathered together in one , and to judg and excommunicate that incestuous person . But the fornicatour was not amongst the Elders alone , neither were they alone puffed up when they should have sorrowed , neither was that wicked man to be taken out of the midst of them , and still left in the midst of the people ; and therefore not to be judged by them alone , but by the church with them , though governed by them . 2. It did not of ould apperteyn onely to the Levites and Elders in Israel , to purge out of their houses the materiall leven , but to everie father of familie also : so by proportion to the whole church now to purge out the leven spirituall there spoken of : which also could not leven the whole lump , or church , in the Apostles meaning , except it had concerned the whole church to purge it out . 3. The Apostle wrote not to the Elders onely , but with them to the whole bodie , not to be commingled with fornicators , covet●us persons , or the like , called brethren : he therefore admonisheth them , as the other , to cast their stone at the incestuous man , for the taking him away from the Lords people . Manie more Arguments , and the same verie clear , might be drawn to this end , out of the text it self ; but for brevitie sake I will omit them , and annex this onely one which followeth , from the second chapter of the second Epistle . The same Apostle writing to these same Corinthians about the same incestuous person , but now penitent , as before delinquent , seriously exhorts them , that look what severitie they had formerly shewed in censuring him for his sin , the like compassion they would now shew , in ●eceaving him again upon his repentance : therein plainly insinuateing , that this busines was not in the hands of the Elders alone , except we will say , that they alone were made sad by the Apostles reproof , that they alone by their studie , defence , indignation , zeal , &c. testified , that they were pure in the thing , and except it belonged to them alone to pardon , and comfort the repentant sinner , and to confirm their love unto him . And whereas some would inclose this whole power within the Apostles circuit ; as if he alone , Bishop-like , had passed sentence judicia●ie upon the offender , and onely committed the declaration , and publication of it in the church , to some his substitute , I deem it not lost labour breifly to ●hew how erroneous this opinion is of externall monarchicall government , yea power also , which is more , in the church of Christ. And , first , one alone , how great soever , cannot suffice to make the Church , or a congregation , which Christ hath furnished with power of binding , and loosing Math. 18 , 17 , 18. both reason , and scripture teaching , that for an assembly , and congregation at least two or three are required . ver . 19. The Church ( which name signifies a multitude , designeing by a new trope , one alone singular person , as saith D. Whitakers against Stapleton , going about to prove that the name of the church belongs to the Pastours , or Byshops , or Pope alone . 2. It is expresly affirmed 2 Cor. 2 , 6. that the incestuous person was censured by many : which many or more , the Apostle opposeth to himself alone , as appeareth by the context ; and not to all , as some erroneously think . 3. The Apostle plainly , and sharply reproveth the Corinthians for that before his writing they had not voyded that sinfull man , their holy fellowship , and so prevented the reporte by which such a crime , and the same unpunished came to his ears . This their power then the man of God doth not seaze into his own hands as forfeyt by their default in not using it , but vehemently ( and as became a faithfull minister ) exhorts and admonist●es them to use it , as they ought in the judging , purging out , and taking from among themselvs that wicked man , and so any other within , or called a brother , sinning in the like manner . 4. If the Apostle Paul being absent from Corinth had excommunicated this sinner , then had he judicially condemned , and judged a man unaccused , unconvicted , and unreproved ( at least face to face , and before his judg ) : then which what more unjust can be imagined of , or ascribed unto the holy Apostle ? I conclude therefore with Peter Martyr , The Apostle , as great as he was , doth not so far usurp to himself power , as that he one , and alone by himself should excommunicate : which yet the Pope , and ma●y Bishops ( both Romish and English ) dare do : Injudging he goes before others , as it is meet the cheif in the Church should do , that so the lesse skilfull multitude might be directed in judging by their voting before them . Thus much of this place . The next followeth , which is Acts 1 , When another was to succeed in the room of Iudas the traytour , not Peter alone , or the Apostles with him , but ( that the ordination might be just and lawfull , being made with the knowledg of the people assistent , and examined by the verdit , and judgment of all ) the multitude of the disciples together did substitute two , whom they deemed most excellent , that of them the Lord , who knew the hearts of all men , might take unto himself the man , which he knew most fit . That which belonged unto God , namely , to designe an Apostle immediately , was left unto him : the disciples also in this work , rete●●ing what might be their libertie : which Calvin notes upon this place , to have been a kinde of middle temper . The third place followeth , which is Act. 6. handling the choice of Deacons , and that by the same Church in Ierusalem , not now small , as before , but ( which I wish may be marked to stop the passage , which some think lyes open for escape through smaller assemblies ) now become great , and populous . In this busines the Apostles informe the church what kinde of men they ought to chuse : the multitude chuseth whom they judg fit , and meet accordingly ; and the same present to the Apostles : upon whom so chosen by the people , the said Apostles impose hands as a solemn symbole of their consecration , joyning therewith common prayer . Now if the Deacons onely betrusted with the churches monie were not to be made but by the peoples suffrage , and election , much lesse Pastors & Elders , unto whose fidelitie under Christ the same Church doth commit the incomparable treasure of their souls . To the same purpose ( in regarde of the matter in hand ) serveth that , which we read Act. 14 , 23. where Paul and Barnabas do ordeyn Elders in everie Church , by suffrages ( not their own as some fancie , unto whom to lift up , & to lay on hands is all one ) but the peoples ; or by the lifting up of hands , by which signe , the Grecians , as appears in Demosthenes , and others , the peoples vote or voyce-giving in their popular assemblies was wonte to be made . I ad ( which is especially to be observed ) that the Apostles in doing their part in the ordination of Elders , did what they did , as it were , by the way : staying onely , most like , two or three daies in a place : so as they could not possibly by their own experience take sufficient knowledg , what persons in the church were apt to teach or govern : who able to exhort with sound doctrine , & to convince the gainsayers : how unblamable they were , how watchfull , given to hospitalitie , temperate , &c. and with these , how mannered wives , and children they had . These things onely the bretheren which conversed with them publiquely , and privately , could sufficiently take knowledg , and experience of . Vpon their electing them did the ordination conferred by the Apostles , as the hands of the Church , depend . By election the persons elected have right to their offices ; into the actuall possession whereof they are solemnly admitted by ordination . This troup of proofes , that known , and notable place Act. 15. shall shut up : in which we have the peoples libertie in the churches both of Antioch , and Ierusalem plentifully confirmed and commended by Apostolick practise to ensueing churches , and times . And first , it is evident , that in the church of Antioch together with the Elders ( which it appears then it had Act. 14 , 21 , 23. ) the brethren were admitted into the fellowship of the busines , and disquisition made about circumcision : Paul & Barnabas with the rest of the delegates then sent being brought on their journey by the church . ver . 3. the letters also being written back from Ierusalem to the brethren which were at Antioch , ver . 23. and which is specially to be noted , then , and not before , delivered when the multitude were come together . vers . 30. So in the church at Ierusalem the messengers from Antioch were receaved not onely of the Apostles and Elders , but of the Church with them , vers . 4. And as the question was propounded so was it , discussed before the whole church by the Apostles , & Elders comming together to look unto that busines . ver . 6. yet not so as the brethren were wholly bound to silence , seeing that ver . 11. the whole multitude is said to have held their peace , that is , to have yeilded to Peters speach , and reasons . Lastly , as Silas and Iudas were sent with Paul and Barnabas , by the Apostles , and Elders with the whole Church unto Antioch , vers . 22. so were the letters written back in the name of them all to the brethren at Antioch . ver . 23. And although the decrees to be observed by the churches of the Gentiles , ( whereof no one , excepting Antioch , had any delegates present ) which were also part of the word of God , and holy Canon , could come from none other then the Apostles , immediately inspired by the H. Ghost , they notwithstanding in the publishing of the same , did not disdam the consenting suffrage of the brethren of that particular church of Ierusalem , where the assembly was . And surely , if it ever did , or could apperteyn to any church officers or governers whatsoever to represent the church-assemblies , in elections , censures , and other Ecclesiasticall judgments , and occurrences ; then without doubt unto the Apostles in an eminent , and peculiar manner ( especially living in that rude , and childish state of the church ) considering both how superlative their office was , and how admirable their gifts , and endowments of the holy Ghost , together with their incomparable both pietie , & prudence : by which they were both most able , and willing to promote the Christian faith in holynes . And although this constant , and uniform both practise , and institution of the Apostles unto divers ( politick persons , swelling with pride of fleshly reason , dispising Apostolicall simplicitie , and who , as ●●eneus speaks , would be rectifiers of the Apostles , seem worthie of light regard , yet to us , who beleiv with Theodoret , that we ought to rest in the Apostolicall , and propheticall demonstrations , and who with Tertullian do adore the fulnes of the Scriptures , they seem of singular weight , and moment . And whilst I consider with my self in the fear of God , how it was the Apostles duetie to teach the disciples of Christ to observ whatsoever he commanded them ; and how the Apostle Paul testifieth , that even the things , which he wrote touching order , and comlynes to be observed in the church-exercises , were the commandements of the Lord , as also how the same Apostle clearly professeth , that he and his fellow officers were onely to be reputed as ministers and ambassadours of Christ , to whom therefore in the exequution of their office it was not permitted to do , or speak the least thing , which they had not in charge from him , it is unto me a matter of great scruple , and conscience , to depart one hair-breadth ( extraordinarie accidents ever excepted ) from their practise , & institution , in any thing truely ecclesiasticall , though never so small in it self : whatsoever , by whomsoever , and with what colour soever is invented , and imposed , touching the government of the church which is the house and tabernacle of the living God. And a partner in this faith I do hope to live , and die , and to appear before Iesus Christ , with bouldnes in that great and fearfull day of his coming . I add , that seeing the Christian congregation as the spouse of Christ , free , and ingenuous , hath the church officers whosoever , as Christ Iesus her housbands , so also her servants for Iesus sake , whom under Christ she trusteth with her eternall salvation , and unto whom for their labour shee oweth wages for releif and maintenance ; Considering also how much it makes both to whet on the diligence of the ministers , and to inforce the diligence of the people , whilst these on the one side consider with themselvs , how they have them set over them , whom above others themselvs have liked , and made choice of ; and they on the other side , that they are set over those by whom they before others were made choice of , and elected : that which Cyprian hath , seemeth most equall , and of institution morall , and unchangeable , that the commonaltie fearing God & keeping his commaundements , should have the speciall hand either in chusing of worthie Preists , or ministers , or of rejecting the unworthie : which also , saith he , we see to be founded upon divine authoritie . The same is to be held of excommunication . Seeing that it behooveth the Christian multitude to avoide the fellowship of the excommunicated not onely in the course of religion , but even in common , and familiar conversation ( the rights of nature , familie , and common wealth ever kept inviolated ) : and that whom yesterday I was to repute a brother near , and dear in Christ , to morrow I must hould as an Heathen , and Publican , and as , for the destruction of the flesh , delivered to Sathan : who is so unequall a judg , as not to think it a most equall thing , that the multitude should clearly , and undoubtedly take knowledg both of the heynousnes of the crime , and incorrigeable contumacie of the person , after the use of all means , and remedies for reclayming him . This if it be not done , then doth not the church herein live by her own , but by her officers faith ; neither are her governers to be reputed as servants , but Lords unto her ; neither do they exercise their office popular●lie in the church as they ought , but tyrannicallie , as they ought not , by Chrisostoms verdit . His words are these . He who bears himself upon an externall and worldly power , because he rules legally , and that men must of necessitie obey him , doth oft times , and that not without cause , exercise authoritie against the will , and wel-liking of his subiects ? But on the other side , he who will be over those , who voluntarily submit unto him , and can him thank , and yet will presume to do things as himself liketh , & as if he were to give account to none other thereof , that man raither exerciseth his author●tie tyrannically then popularly . The Lord God put it into the hearts of those who bear greatest sway in the reformed churches , to indeavour the furnishing of the same with such Elders , as may both fully , and constantly , and popularly , discharge their place , for the peace of their own consc●ences before God , the edification of the Churches over which they are set , as also for the abateing , if not abolishing , of that contempt in which Prelat●sts , and supercilious persons use to hould these lay-Elders , as they call them . But now lest any should take occasion , either by the things here spoken by us , or els where of us , to conceave , that we either exercise amongst our selvs , or would thrust upon others , any popular , or democraticall Church-government ; may it please the Christian Reader to make estimate of both our judgment , and practise in this point , according to these three declarations following . First , we beleev , that the externall Church-government under Christ the onely mediatour , and monarch thereof is plainly aristocraticall , and to be administred by some certain choice men , although the state , which manie unskilfully confound with the government , be after a sort popular , and democraticall . By this it apperteyns to the people freely to vote in elections and judgments of the church : in respect of the other we make account , it behoves the Elders to govern the people even in their voting in just libertie , given by Christ whatsoever . Let the Elders publiquely propound , and order all things in the church , & so give their sentence on them ; let them reprove them that sin , convince the gain-sayers , comfort the repentant , and so administer all things according to the prescript of Gods word : Let the people of faith , give their assent to their Elders holy and lawfull administration : that so the ecclesiasticall elections , and censures may be ratified , and put into solemn exequution by the Elders , eyther in the ordination of officers after election , or excommunication of offenders after obstinacie in sin . 2. We doubt not but that the Elders both lawfully may , and necessarily ought , and that by vertue of their office , to meet apart at times from the bodie of the Church , to deliberate of such things as concern her welfare , as for the preventing of things unnecessarie , so for the preparing ( according to just order ) of things necessarie , so as publiquely , and before the people , they may be prosequuted with most conveniencie , and least trouble that may be . 3. By the people whose libertie , and right in voteing we thus avow , and stand for ; in matters truly publique and ecclesiasticall , we do not understand ( as it hath pleased some contumeliously to upbraid us ) women , and children ; but onely men , and them grown , and of discretion : making account , that as children by their nonage , so women by their sex are debarred of the use of authoritie in the Church . CHAP. V. Of Holy-dayes . IT seemeth not without all leven of superstition , that the Duch reformed Churches do observ certain dayes consecrated as holy to the Nativity , Resurrection , and Ascention of Christ , and the same also ( as it commonly comes to passe where humain devices are reared up by the side of divine institutions ) much more holy then the Lords day , by him himselfe appoynted . And for this , first we are taught by Moses , thus speaking unto the people of Israel in the name of the Lord. Verily my Sabbaths ye shall keep for it is a signe between me and you thoroughout your generations that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctifie you , that it appertayns unto God alone ( and to no man , or Angel ) as to sanctifie whether person , or thing , so to institute the signes , or means of sanctification , of which number holy dayes are . I ad , if the Lord as lehovah , and the God of his people Is●ael , and supream Lawgiver , do ordeyn the sanctification of a day in the decalogue , how far should Gods servants be , eyther Magistrates from takeing this honour of God unto themselves by commaunding a holy day ; or subjects by observing it to give the same unto any other save God alone ? 2. It was not the least part of Israels defection , first in the wildernes , afterwards under Ieroboam ; that they ordeyned a ●east to Ichovah , whom they represented to themselvs by the goulden calvs which they had made . 3. Seeing that every first day of the weeke ( called by Iohn the Lords day ) is consecrated by Christ himself and his Apostles to the memoriall of Christs resurrection , and Gods solemn worship ; it seems too much for anie mortall man to appoint , or make an anniversarie memoriall ( and the same most solemn and sacred ) of the same resurrection , or so to observe it . Lastly , that you may see it was a man , from whom this device came , and so erred , as one saith ( not to meddle with the uncertaintie either of the day of the month , or month of the yeare in which Christ was born , as it is most certain on the contrarie that , this 25 of December cannot be the time , what good reason ( I would know ) can be rendred , why a day should be consecrated rather to the birth , circumcision , and ascension of Christ , then to his death , seeing that the Scriptures every where do ascribe our redemption and salvation to his death , and passion in speciall manner ? CHAP. VI. Of the celebration of Mariage by the Pastours of the Church . SIxtly , and lastly , we cannot assent to the receaved opinion and practise answerable in the Reformed Churches , by which the Pastours thereof do celebrate marriage publiquely , and by vertue of their office : because 1 The holy S●r●pture divinely inspired , that the man of God , that is the minister , may be perfitly furnished to every good work , doth no where furnish or oblige the minister to this work . 2. Marriage doth properly and imediately appertein to the family , ( which is primarily framed of man , and wife ) and Citties , and other politicall bodies consisting of manie familyes . Secondarily , and mediately to the common wealth , and publique governers of the same : who therefore weighing their office , and what concerneth them doe accordingly , in the low countries , comelily , and in good order●●y that knott of marriage amongst such theire subjects , as require it at their hands . Neither did God as a minister joyn in marriage our first parents ( as some would make him ) but as their common father by right of creation , and the chief maister of the marriage : neither ought the Pastours office to be streched to anie other acts then those of religion , and such as are peculiar to christians : amongst which marriage ( common to Gentiles as well , as to them ) hath no place . Lastly , considering how popish superstitition hath so far prevailed , that marriage in the Romish church hath gott a room amongst the sacraments , truly , and properly so called , and by Christ the Lord instituted ; the celebration , and consecration whereof the patrons , and consorts of that superstition will have so tyed to the priests fingers , that , by the decree of Evaristus the first , they account the marriage no better then incestuous , which the priest consecrates not ; it the more concerns the reverend brethren , and Pastours of the reformed Churches to see unto it , that by their practise they neither doe , nor seem to advantage this popish errour . And these are the points of our difference frō the Belgick churches : which are nei●her so small ; as that they deserv to be neglected , especially of them unto whom nothing seemeth small ; which proceeds from the gracious either mouth or spirit of the Lord Iesus : nor yet so great , as to dissolv the bond of brotherly charitie , and communion . If any now shal object , that there are yet other things beside these , in which we consort not so well with them , nor they with us ; as for example , 1. In the sanctification of the Lords day , in which we seem even superstitiously rigid . 2. In a certain popular exercise of prophesi amongst us : 3. In our dislike of the publique Temples , and sundry other indifferent things , as they are termed ; besides , that we are accused by some for not having in due estimation the magistrates authoritie in matters of religion ; I do answere , and first , that in the two first of these , the same Churches do not differ from us in judgment , but in practise : as appears evidently by the Harmonie of the Belgick Synods lately published by S. R. Of the former of those two , the author of the same book , testifieth in his Preface to the Reader , that the Synod held at Middleborough in Zeland , 1581. did supplicate unto the magistrate , that by his authoritie he would decree the sanctification of the Lords day , abolishing the manifould abuses thereof . That sanctification then of the Lords day which the reformed churches do endeavour unto , and desire to have fortified by the magistrates authoritie , that we ( considering it as immediately imposed by Christ upon his churches ) by the grace of God , labour to perform , being thereunto induced by these , amongst other reasons . CHAP. VII . Of the sanctification of the Lords day . FIrst the sanctification of the Sabboth is a part of the Decalogue , or morall law , written in tables of stone by the finger of God : of which Christ our Lord pronounceth , that no one ●o●e , or title shall passe away . Now if it be unpossible for one title of the law to be dissolved , much more for a whole word , or commandement , and one of ten ; by which it should come to passe , that Christians now were not to count of ten commandements of the moral law , but of nyne onely . If reply be made that the fourth commandement is so ceremoniall , that notwithstanding it hath this morall in it , that some tyme be assigned , and taken for the publique ministerie , and exercises of religion , I answer : 1. That the same may be said in generall , of the Mosaicall ceremonies whatsoever : all , and everie one whereof affoardeth something morall . For instance , The Mosaicall Temple , or Tabernacle had this morall in it , and perteyning to us , as well as to the Israelites , that it was a fit and convenient place for the Church assembly . Is therefore the precept for the tabernacle as well morall , as that for the Sabboth ? Is it alike a part of the decalogue , and morall law ? Is it alike one of the ten Commandements ? 2. If the morall sanctification of the Sabboth stand in this , that sometime be assigned to the publique ministerie , then were the Israelites , especially the preists , and Levites , bound to an everie day sabboth and sanctification morall , being bound everie day to offer in the tabernacle , and temple , two young lambs , the one at morning , the other at evening for a daylie sacrifice . 3. If the second precept of the Decalogue do in the affirmative part injoyn all outward instituted worship of God ; then also by consequence it requi●es some set time ( as a naturall circumstance absolutely necessarie to everie finite action ) in which the same worship is to be performed . In va●n then is the fourth commandement , and to no purpose , if it injoyn nothing at all , but that which was injoyned before , namely in the second . 4. The verie essence of the fourth commaundment consists in this , that a day of seaven be kept holy , that is separated from common use , and consecrated to God , in wh●ch as in a holy day the works of divine worship , and such as serve for the spirituall man ought to be exercised , as appears plainly by the reason taken from Gods example , upon which the commandement is founded . Take this away , and the life of the precept seemeth to suffer violence . The truly godly take some tyme for the exercises of Gods worship not onely publique , and Ecclesiasticall , but private also , and domesticall : yea in their closets , as Christ teacheth . Yet are not these either times , or places , in which such things are done , then others ar● ▪ Eyther therefore a day in it self must be holy , by divine institution , or the Decalogue is may●ed in the fourth commandement . But you will doubtlesse object the change made from the last daie , to the first day of the week . I answer , 1. that change is mee●ly circumstantiall , & in which also the essence of the precept i● not abolished , but established . As for example . God promised unto children duly honouring their parents a long life in that land ( to wit of Canaan , then to be possessed by his people ) which the Lord thy God gave unto them . The same promise by the Apostles testimonie still stands good to obedient children , though out of Canaan , and in another land , so doth the same precept stand in force for the sanctification of the sabboth , though removed to another of the seven dayes by the Lords hand . 2. It is evident that this alteration was made both upon weightie ground , and warrantable authoritie . The ground is Christ our Saviours resurrection from the dead : in wh●ch mans new creation ( at least in respect of Christ working the same in the state of humiliation for that ●nd undertaken ) was perfeited : a new kinde of kingdome of God , after a sort established : and , as the Scriptures speak , all things made new . And why not also a new sabboth after a sort ? in which yet notwithstanding the former ( as ●he creation also by Christ● is not so properly abolished , as perfited . The authoritie upon which this change lea●eth , is no lesse then of Christ himself : who , first , by word of mouth for the fortie dayes after his resurrection , taught the disciples the things , which apperteyned to the kingdom of God , that is , as Calvin saith , whatsoever things they published either by word or writing afterward . 2. By his example , or fact , setting himself in the middest of the same his Apostles , the first day of the week , and as Iunius saith , everie eigth day , till his ascension into heaven : & therein not onely blessing them with his bodily , but much more , with his spirituall , and that speciall presence . 3. By his spirit speaking in his Apostles , whose office it was to teach his disciples to observ what things soever he had commanded them , and to declare unto them the whole counsail of God : who also in their whole ministration were to be reputed none other then the ministers of Christ , and lastly whose both writing ( & preachings accordingly ) even about order and comlines to be kept in the church exercises were the commandements of the Lord Iesus . Agreable hereunto it was , that the Apostle Paul coming to Troa● , and there with his companie abid●ng seven dayes , he did not till the first day of the week ( which yet was the last of the seven ) call together the a●sciples to eat bread , that is to communicate in the Lords supper . Hereupon also it was , that the same Apostle ordeyned , that on everie first day of the week , as on a day sanctified for the holie assemblies , and ●ttest for most effectuall provocations to the supplying of the necessities of the poore Saints , everie one of the richer sort , should lay something apart , as God had blessed him , for the releif of the Churches in Syria , at that tyme oppressed with great penurie , and want . Lastly upon none other ground but this , was this day , by Iohn the Apostle , named expresly the Lords day , as being consecrated to the resurrection and service of the Lord Iesus : for which end also it was kept in the primitive Churches , as appeareth by most ancient and authentick writers . Neyther did Pathmos more distinctly denote a certain and known Iland , and Iohn a certain and known person , then did the Lords day a day certain , and known especially unto Christians , unto whom the Apostle wrote . Whereunto also agreeth that of Austin , This Lords day is therefore so called , because on that day the Lord rose again , or that by the verie name i● might teach us , how it ought to be consecrated to the Lord. The second reason is , because the sanctification of the Sabboth ( the circumstantiall change notwithstanding ) doth as well belong to us in our times , as to the Israelites in theirs ; whether we respect the Reason of the commandement , or the end . The reason is taken from the example of God himself , who rested the seventh day from the works of creation . The ends are , 1 , that we framing our selvs to Gods example , after six daies spent in servile works , or works of acquisition , might rest the seaventh . 2. That we might recount with our selvs , not onely with thankfull , but also composed hearts , as the creation of man , and of all other things for mans good , so also his re-creation , & renovation clearly shineing in the resurrection of Christ from the dead . 3. That sequest●ing our hearts , tongues , and hands from everie servile work ( so far as humain infirmitie will bea● ) we might cons●crate unto God a certain and set time , & day , for the works of pietie towards him , and of charitie towards men . And albeit the state of Israell of ould compared with ours , was childish , and elementa●ie , and so needed the more helps both for restraint , and supportance ; yet have not we atteyned to such manlike perfection , as that we need none at all in this kinde . And ( not to meddle with the table of Christians , whose ave●s●es from the due sanctification of this day gives no obscure testamonie , that the same is sacred , & of God , from which their prophane conversation so much abhorreth ) how behooffull , and necessarie it is for the true worshippers of God , that for some certain , and whole day they should emptie , and disburden their hearts of their earthly cares ( though in themselves lawfull ) that so they might wholy consecrate themselvs to God , publiquely in his house , and privately in their own ; partly by preparing themselvs , and theirs for the publique worship , and ministrie , & partly by calling to minde in themselvs , and instructing , and examining of those which belong unto them , as they ought , touching the things which they have publiquely heard ; as also in m●ditateing of the most glorious works of Gods hands , the verie experience of everie godly , and devout man may teach him . He that sels himself to the holy , and severe observation of this the Lords Sabboth , turning away his foot from the Sabboth , not to do that wherin he delighteth , on the Lords holy day , & calling the Sabboth a delight , the holy of the Lord , & honourable and shall honour him , not doing hi● own wayes , nor performing his own pleasure , or speaking his own words ; then shall he delight himself in the Lord , and he will cause him to ●ide upon the high places of the earth , and feed him with the heritage of Iacob his father , because the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it : Where as on the contrarie , no man doth or can neglect the same without apparent prejudice and wrong to pietie , and goodnes both in himself , and those under him . To let passe other things , how easily doth this thought steal into the heart not thoroughly perswaded of the holynes of this day ? what now ! There is in the day no holynes by Gods appointment , save onely , as in it , the publique sermons of the church with prayer , and thanksgiving are to be frequented , and performed : for me to be present at everie sermon , speciallie made in the cittie , both on the Lords day , and everie other day of the week , my speciall calling , and worldly affairs will not permit : Besides , it were verie commodious for me on this Lords day , to make an end of such or such a work which I have in hand , to deal in such a busines , to undertake such a journey ; And what should hinder me from so doing ? But provided alwaies , upon this condition , that look what this day wants , the morrow , or next day shall plentifully supply : or , if it so fall out , thorough mine importunate bu●sines , that I bee something more behinde this week in these things , I will certainly , and at the furthest , the next week be so much the more frequent in them , and so make God , and my soul amends . And why ( as is the guise of ill debters ) will not men desire , and take longer day , even to months , and years also ? considering how on the one side the heart of man is dayly faster taken & held by the bait of worldly profit , and pleasure ; and on the other , lesse affectioned to Gods holy word , by the lesse frequent hearing of it . And hence , alasse , cometh it to passe , that true pietie languisheth so much in the most , and with it such other christian vertues as use to accompanie it . Hence flow those tears of sorrow , and lamenting , which no true christian casting his eyes upon the reformed churches can forbear . The third Reason is taken from that Apostolicall determination ( wrested by many to a contrarie meaning ) Coloss. 2 , 16 , 17. Let no man therefore judg you in meat , or drink , or in respect of a feast or new moone , or sabbaths ; which are the shadow of good things to come , but the bodie is Christ. Whence it appeareth more then plainly , that onely those sabboths are abolished by Christs comeing in the flesh , which were types and figures of Christ to come , of which sort as there were not a few instituted of God by Moses , so doth this Apostle here , and elswhere sufficiently declare the abrogateing , and abolishing of the same by Christ. But that the Sabboth , of which we now speak comes in that reckoning we plainly deny . For , 1. In its primary institution Gen. 2. there can nothing be found not wholy morall . Let a man haveing many e●es as Argus , search the same with a candle , he seekes ( as we say ) a knot in a bul●ush , if he think to find in it any either shadow of Christ , or shadow of shadow . If any shall except , that God by Moses did enjoyn unto the Israelites the sanctification of this day , that it might be a signe between him , and Israel throughout their generations , that they might know , that he is the Lord that doth sanctifie them , I do answer , first , in the words of Arminius , that the Reason upon which God did afterwards commend unto his people , the sanctification of the sabboth because it was a signe between God and his people , that it was Iehovah that sanctified them , may be applyed to the times of the new testament , & further with them also the sabboths sanctification . 2. Admit that this use were ceremoniall , and typicall in the fourth commandement , yet were there no force in the consequence from one end & use typicall , and ceremoniall , superinduced , and brought in upon the precept , to prove the precept it self ceremoniall , and typicall in the institution . By the same reason it may be affirmed , that both the Covenant of God made with Abraham , I will be thy God , and the God of thy seed , as also the right of the first born , for a double port on , & manie things more of like consideration , were merely ceremoniall , and typicall , seeing that even unto them also , were annexed , and that by Gods appointment , divers typicall , and temporall respects : of which notwithstanding none soundly minded will deny , that the one is euangelicall , and the other naturall . 3. Considering that the observation of this sabboth was either injoyned ( as I perswade my self it was from Gen. 2 , 1 , 2 , 3. & Exod. 16 , 26 , 30. ) to Adam , in innocency and not yet needing Christ ; or at least , that the reason of the institution did fit the state of innocencie as well , as it did the Israelites afterward I doe undoubtedly conclude , that the same Sabboth in the primarie , and essentiall institution thereof is not to come upon their file , which as the shadows of future things had Christ for the body . Fourthly , I argue from that premonition of Christ Math. 24 , 20. Pray that your flight be not in winter nor on the Sabboth . I am not ignorant how the most divines both ancient , and later do understand this sermon ( as Chrisostom saith ) as made of the Iewes ; seeing that , as the same authour hath it , neither the Apostles did observ the Sabboth day , neither yet were they in Iudea when these things were done of the Romans : many of them having departed this life , and the rest ( if anie survived ) having bestowed themselvs in other places . But ( with due reverence to them all be it spoken ) it seemeth by the text to be otherwise . For 1. Christ made not this sermon to the Iewes , as Iewes , but to his disciples , and those alone , and the same comming unto him secretly to be taught by him : whom he forewarned in the same place how that first at the hands of the Iewes in Iudea , and after , of the Gentiles every where , they should be evill intreated for his names sake . v. 3 , 4 , 9. 25 , 26. with Luke 21. 12. Secondly , our Saviour in saying Pray ye , makes it plain , that that he speaks of them , and their associates unto whom he speakes , to wit , Christians . Lastly how could it be that Christ , who by his death ( now drawing so neare as that there was but a step unto it ) was to abrogate , and abolish all Iewish ceremonies , and shadowes , should to carefully provide for the so religious observation of a shadowish , and ceremoniall sabboth : and that not for a day or two , but for so many yeares after the same his death ; Could anie thing more weightie be spoken by Christ , or which could more deeply imprint in the hearts of men a religious regard of the Sabboth , then that it behooved them to obte●n by prayer at Gods hands , that they might not be const●eined unto that thing although permitted them of God in case of urgent necessitie , which might violate and interrupt the publique , and solemn sanctification thereof ; It is true then which Chrisostome saith , that the Apostles did not observ the Sabboth , to wit , Iewish : but the Christian Sabboth , o● Lords day they did undoubtedly celebrate . The fift and last Reason may be fetcht from the verie Gentiles themselvs , who directed by the glimps of the light of nature , how darkly soever shineing in them , had their holy daies , and some of the same such , as in which not so much as the pleading , and determining of suites were admitted . It seemeth naturall , that some day , and morall that some day certain , and distinct , be sacred unto God : and the same ( as Iunius saith ) every seaventh day ) : in which men forbearing all servile works , may consecrate , and give themselvs to God in the duties of pietie , and of charitie to men . Which with what hinderance unto the one , and other is everie where neglected , can scarse either be uttered , or conceaved . For what tra●va●l if upon the overslipping of the most seasonable seed-time , a slender harvest follow ; or that ( the market day being neglected ) penu●ie of provision should be found in the family ; We christ an● have the Lords day by the Lord Christ assigned us for the exercises of pietie , and mercie , in which he offers , and exhibits h●rself in the fruits of his gracious presence in a singular manner to be seen , and injoyed of his , religiously observing the same . Let us at no hand ( as alike unmindfull of Gods ordinance and mans infirmitie suffer ) the fruit of such a benefit to dy in our hands : but let us accordingly acknowledg the same in thought , word , and work , to his honour , and our own good . CHAP. VIII . Of the exercise of Prophecie . THere are they ( whose names I forbear , for their credits sake ) who have not spared , and that in their publique writings , to lay to our charge , that we will needs have all , and everie member of the Church a Prophet , and to prophesie publiquely . With what mindes they let loose their tongues to utter these , and manie mo most false and absurde vituperies against us , we leav it to God to judg , who knoweth : with what conscience , and desert of credit therein , unto thee ( Christian Reader ) into whose hands this our Apologie shall come . We learn from the Apostle Paul 1 Cor. 14 , 3. that he who prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification , exhortation , & comfort : which to perform conveniently , and as becomes the church-assemblie , we make account comes within the compasse but of a few of the multitude ; happily two or three in each of our churches , considering their weak , and depressed estate . Touching prophesie then we think the verie same , that the Synode held at Embden 1571 hath decreed in these words . 1. In all churches , whether but springing up , or grown to s●me ripenes , let the order of prophesie be observed , according to Pauls institution . 2. Into the fellowship of this work are to be admitted not onely the ministers , but the teachers too , as also of the Elders and Deacons , yea even of the multitude , which are willing to confir their gift receaved of God , to the common utilitie of the Church : but so as they first be allowed by the judgment of the ministers , And as the Apostle somet●mes said , We beleev , and therefore we speak , so because we beleev with the Belgick churches , that this exercise is to be observed in all congregations , therefore we also observ it in ours . Of this our both faith & practise , we have these amongst other speciall foundations . The first we fetch from the examples in the Iewish church , where libertie both for teaching and disputing publiquely both in temple and synagogue , was freely given to all gifted accordingly , without respect had to any office . If any object , that the examples of Christ , and the Apostles in this case are incompetent , seeing that Christ was furnished with his own , and the Apostles with his authoritie ; he alledgeth that which is true in it self , but to small purpose ; considering we lay not our foundation in this , that Christ and his Apostles so d●d ; but in that libertie so to do , was alwaies , and in all places graunted , & sometimes offered them . This libertie they obteyned not by the authoritie of Christ , which the Rulers of the Synagogues & Temple no more acknowledged then they did Christ himself : but by the order then receaved , and still continued to this day amongst the Iewes , that they whom with the Scriptures they call wise men , without all regard of publique office , having any word of exhortation to the people , should say on , as we have it written Act. 13 , 23. Whereunto ●ad , that divers of them in whom we instance were furnished with no such authoritie specially from Christ. The second we take from the Apostle Paul 1 Cor. 14 ▪ where to the full , he informeth the church at Corinth of the order of that exercise , which they had formerly violated . Which whole order ( according to Bezaj is apparently taken , from the receaved custom in the Iewish Synagogues . Which custom saith Peter Martyr ) seeing it was of ●uld both good and laudable in the synagogues of the Iewes , the Apostle disdeyns not to transfer it to the church of Christ. of which also he tenders this reason , because it was not a legall ceremonie , but servs to the edification of the Church . If this be so , then must they needs take their marks amisse , who imagine that the Apostle in this place speaks of the extraordinarie gift , and exercise of prophesie . And although it be not like , that the Church of Corinth was , in that so plenteous effusion of the gifts of the spirit , altogether destitute of extraordinarie prophets , yet that the Apostle did not in that place aime at them , may be proved by manie mo , and the same ( as I think ) firm arguments drawn from the self same text . Which that I may do the more commodiously , the prudent reader must call to minde , that upon the foundation of the extraordinarie prophets , as well as of the verie Apostles , the church is built ; and that that mysterie of Christ , by the spirit immediately , and infalliblie inlightining their minde , was in the same manner , though not in all in the same degree , revealed to them , and the other . This so considered , 1. It seems altogether unprobable , that so manie Prophets of this ranke ( although inf●riour in gifts ) should have been found in that one small congregation , as the Apostle insinuates ver . 24 , 29 , 31 , that Corinth had . 2. The Apostles in Corinth not onely behaved themselvs inordinately in the church , but withall ( as by interpreters from ver . 29 , and 32 is generally delivered were subject to errour in the verie doctrine which they propounded ; which to affirm of the extraordinarie Prophets , these skilfull m●ister builders , who together with the Apostles la●d the foundation , together participated the same holy spirit , seemeth not a litle to shake the foundation of Christian religion . And if one of these extraordinarie prophets might 〈◊〉 , why not they all : And 〈◊〉 the Prophets , why not the Apostles . And ●f they might 〈◊〉 , how should it appear , that they have not cried ? And so by consequence , what either then was , o● now is the firmnes and certaintie of the Christian fa●th ? 3. Seeing that the Apostle ver . 34 , 35 , injoyns women deep silence in this church exercise , not permitting them a all to speak ; it seems most plain that he hath no●y , nor respect at all , to these extraordinarie gifts and endowments of prophesie authorising even women furnished with them , to speak publiquely , and in mens presence , as appears in Mirjam , Deborah , Huldah , Anna , as also even in Iezabel her self in regard of order , and others . Lastly , the Apostle ver . 36 , upbraideth those verie Prophets unto whom he directeth his speach , as such , as from whom the word of God came not : but without cause , yea not without notable injurie , if they were extraordinarie Prophets , that is , inspired with the holy Ghost , and his immediate instruments : seeing that from these kinde of Prophets , as well as from Paul the Apostle the word of God came , though in different degree , and measure . The third foundation of this exercise is laid in the manifould , and the same most excellent ends atteynable onely by this means . 1. That God may be glorified , whilst everie one doth administer to another the gift , which he hath receaved , as good dispensers of the ma●●ssuld grace of God. 2. That the spirit be not extinguished , that is the gift of prophesie , or teaching ; in which it may so come to passe , that some in the church , though no ministers , may excell the verie pastours themselvs . 3. That such as are to be taken into the ministerie of the church , may both become , and appear apt to teach . This seeing the Apostle would have done , he would questionlesse have some order for the doing of it : which , excepting this of prophesie , we have none of Apostolicall institution . 4. That the doctrine of the church may be preserved pure , from the insection of errour : which is far more easilie corrupted , when some one or two alone in the church speak all , and all the rest have deep , and perpetuall silence enjoyned them . 5. That things doubtfull arising in teaching may be cleared , things obscure opened , things 〈◊〉 convinced ; and lastly , that as by the beating together of two stones 〈◊〉 appeareth , so may the light of the truth more clearly ●hine by disputations , quest●ons , and answers modestly had , and made , and as becomes the church of Saints , and worke of God. 6. For the edification of the church , and conversion of them that beleiv not : and this the raither because it apperteyneth not properly to the pasteurs , as Pastours , to turn goats or wolves into sheep , but raither to 〈◊〉 the flock and sheep of Christ , in which the H. Ghost hath made them overseers . 7. And lastly , lest by excluding the commonaltie and multitude from Church affairs , the people of God be devided , and charitie lestened , and familiaritie , and good will be extinguished between the order of ministers and people . CHAP. IX . Of Temples . TO speak nothing of the office of the Christian magistrate in demolishing the monuments , and snares of Idolatrie ( which these Temples want not , if themselvs be not such ) I account that the consideration is one of a temple , as a temple , that is , a holy place , as it is counted of the most , consecrated either to God himself , or to some Saint ( made therein a false God , though being a true Saint ) whose name it bears ; and which for its magnificent building , and superstitious form agrees far better to the 〈◊〉 religion pompous , and idolatrous as it is , then to the Reformed , and Apostolicall simplicitie . And another , and the same far divers , of a place , although in the house sometimes consecrated for such a temple , partly naturall , which is simplie necessarie to everie 〈◊〉 action ; partly civill , in which the church may well , and conveniently assemble together . The former use I deem altogether unlawfull ; the latter not so , but lawfull , provided alwaies that the opinion of holines be removed , and withall such blemishes of superstition , as wherewith things lawfull in themselvs are usually stayned . CHAP. X. Of things indifferent . VVE do so repute manie things as indifferent , or mean in themselvs and then own nature ( & as houlding a middle place as it were , between the things simplie commaunded , and the things simplie forbidden of God , as that the same things being once drawn into use , and practise , do necessarily undergoe the respect and consideration of good or evill . This the Apostle teacheth 1 Corinth . 14. in his so diligent warning the Church of Corinth , that all things be done decently , in order , and to edification . The things then thus accounted indifferent , when they once come into use in the church , do either work the exercises of religion the more comely , orderly , and edificative , and are such as without which , the same exercises cannot be performed but confusedly , uncomelily , and un●iuitfully , at least in part , or els they swarve from the Apostolicall Canon . With this commaundement of the Apostle , yea of Christ the Lord , agrees the rule of the phylosophers , The accessorie fell●w●th the nature of the principall . For example . Let the principall , as they speak , be some naturall good thing , the verie least accessorie or circumstance , by which this principall is rightly , and orderly furthered , and promoted undergoes also the consideration of a naturall good . The same rule houlds in actions civill : much more in the things , which appertein to religion , and Gods worship . I therefore conclude , that the least ●ite , or ceremonie serving rightly , and orderly to further the principall act , and exercise of religion , doth worthily obteyn , after a sort , the respect and denomination of a religious , and ecclesiasticall good thing : which principall act if it do not truely , and effectually promote and advance , it is a vain addition at the best , beseeming onely vain purposes , and persons , which worship God in vain , teaching for doctrines mens traditions : seeing whatsoever is to be done in the church , is also , and first to be taught , that so it may be done . 2. Whatsoever hath being in nature , is some certain thing first , and properly , and to be reduced to some certain , and distinct head . Now all things whatsoever in use , either in , or about Gods worship , may and must be referred necessarilie to some one of these three heads . Eyther they are things naturall , and simplie necessarie to the exercise ; of which sort are the naturall circumstances of time , and place , without which no finite action can be performed : also for the administring of Baptism , either a fonte or other vessell to hould water : and so for other adjoints absolutely necessarie for the administring of the holy things of the Church : or secondly , they are things civill , and comely : as for example , A convenient place in which the church may conveniently , and comelily meet together , not a stable , or swynestye , also that habit of the minister , that coveting of the L. Table , those ministring vessels , and other accessories , and appurt●nances whatsoever , without which the holy things of God , cannot be dispensed so ●●villy , and comely , as is meet . Or lastly , they are properly things sacred , and holy , and by consequence , parts of externall divine worship : and the same either commaunded by God , and so lawfull , or of mans devise , & therefore superst●t●ous . Now if any shall further ask me , what power then I ascribe eyther to the civill magistrate , or Church-governors for mak●ng lawes about things indifferent ? I answer touching Church-governers first , being to treat by and by of the Magistrate , that no such power , to speak properly , belongs unto them ; as being not Lords but servants of the church , under Christ the onely Lord thereof : exercising , as saith Austin , from Christ , and the Apostles a m●mb●●● , not a Lordship : and who therefore are to learn , if ther will be c●ment with their 〈◊〉 , Which 〈◊〉 them , that a 〈◊〉 better becomes them , then as●pter , as Bernard speaketh , For to ●●ake lawes , by all mens graunt , belongs to them , and them onely , who do swey ●●●pters , 〈…〉 Lords 〈…〉 . Moreover the holy scriptures everie where teach , that the highest Church-officers , and governers are but ambassadours of God , and interpreters , and proclaymers or cryers of his word . But neither 〈…〉 nor interpreter , nor cryer , no nor the herald , the most honourable of all proclaimers , or publishers of Edicts , can commaund any thing 〈◊〉 of the least matter by his own authoritie , as lunius sayth rightly . It is certain , that the governers of Churches do stand in need of wisdom and discretion for the applying , & determining of the common rules of order and comlynes taken from the Scripture , and common sense , to certain cases , and according to certain circumstances : But what makes this for the power of making lawes in the Church ? which as M. Perkins makes account , is a part of Christs prerogative royall : considering withall , that neyther the Church , not the meanest member thereof is further bound unto these their determinations , then they apper to agree with order , and comlines : neither are the ministers in any thing at all , ( as are the magistrates in manie things to be obeyed for the authoritie of the commaunder , but for the reason of the commaundment , which the ministers are also bound in duetie to manifest , & approve unto the consciences of h●m over whom they are set . CHAP. XI . Of civill Magistrates . VVE beleev the verie same touching the civill Magistrate with the Belgick reformed Churches , and willingly subscribe to their confession : and the more , because , what is by many restreyned to the Christian Magistrate , they extend indefinitely , and absolutely to the Magistrate whomsoever . And that surely upon good ground : seeing the magistracie is one , & the power the same , whether the person be christian or heathen : neither is there wanting in an heathen magistrate ( that he might rule as he ought ) authoritie of order , but will of person : neither is his power increased by the accession of christianitie , but onely sanctified , as is first his person . The Prince rules over his subjects , as he is a Prince , and they subjects simply , not as faithfull or christian , he or they . Onely Christ the Lord of our faith hath the faithfull ( as faithfull ) for his subjects : neither are the subjects of Kings as subjects , ●ame part of the church , but of the kingdom . Besides , there is one and the same christian faith of the Prince and subject , and all things common unto both , which spring from the same ; seeing that in Christ Iesus there is neither servant , nor freeman , I ad neither magistrate , nor subject , but all are one in him . As therefore none , no not the least power of publique administrat on comes to the subjects by their christianitie ; to neither is the Princes , thereby at all increased . And indeed how can it ? The magistrate though●-Heathen hath power , as the minister of God for the good of his subjects to command and procure in and by good , and lawfull manner , and means , whatsoever apperteines either to their naturall , or spirituall life , so the same be not contrarie to Gods word : upon which word of God if it beat , God forbid , that the christian magistrate should take libertie to use or rather abuse his authoritie for the same : which yet if he do eyther the one , or other , whether by commanding what God forbids , or by forbidding what God commaunds , seeing it comes by the fault of the person , not of the office , the subject is not f●●ed from the bond of allegiance , but as still tyed to obedience as active for the doing of the thing commanded if it be lawfull , so passive , if unlawfull , by suffering patiently the punishment though unjustly inflicted . Lastly if anie civill , and coactive power in things whether civill , or ecclesiasticall , come to the magistrate , by his christianity , then if it so fall out that he make defection from the same , whether by idolatrie , or heresie , or profanes , it must follow , that thereupon his kingly power is dim●nished , and abridged : whereby how wide a window , or gate rather would be opened to sed●tions subjects under pretext ( specially catholick ) religion , to taise tumults in kingdoms , no man can be ignorant . CHAP. XII . Of the Church of England . THere remains one , and that a great matter of exception against us , and the same the fountain well nigh of all our calamitie : to wit , that we seem evill-affected towards the church of England , and so averse from the same , as that we do no lesse then make a plain secession , and separation from it . I answer , First , that our fayth is not negative : as Papists use to object to the Euangelicall churches , nor which consists in the condemning of others , and wipeing their names out of the bead-●oul of churches , but in the edifying of our selvs : neither require we of anie of ours in the confession of their fayth , that they either renounce , or in one word contest with the church of England , whatsoever the world clamours of us this way . Our faith is founded upon the writings of the prophets , and Apostles , in which ●o mention of the church of England is made . We deem it our dutie what is found in them to beleev with the heart to righteousnes , and to confesse with the tongue to salvation . Secondly , we accord ( as far as the Belgick , and other Reformed churches ) with the Church of England in the Articles of faith , and heads of Christian religion published in the name of that church , and to be found in the Harmonie of the Confessions of fayth . Thirdly , if by the Church be understood the Catholick Church dispersed upon the face of the whole earth , we do willingly acknowledg , that a singular part thereof , and the same visible , and conspicuous is to be found in the land , and with it , do professe and practise what in us layes , communion in all things in themselvs lawfull , and done in right order . But and if by the word Church be understood a spirituall politick body , such as was in her time , the Church of Israell ; and in hers the church of Rome , Corinth , the seven churches of Asia , and others with them partaking of the same Apostolicall constitution , and as unto which do apperteyn the Oracles of God , Sacraments , Censures , Government , and ministerie ecclesiasticall , with other sacred institutions of Christ ; I cannot but confesse , and professe ( though with great greif ) that it is to us matter of scruple , which we cannot overcome , to give that honour unto it , which is due from the servants of Christ to the Church of Christ , rightly collected , and constituted . And , that there may be place left in the eyes of the prudent Reader for our defence in this case , so far forth as equitie and reason will permit , he must once , and again be intreated by me , seriously to weigh with himself , and in his heart , this one advertizement following . That a man may do a thing truely pleasing , and acceptable to God , it sufficeth not , that both the door in his person be accepted of God , the thing done commaunded by God , and that he do it with good , and holy affection before God , except withall , and first he be possessed of that state , & condition of life , which may affoard him a lawfull calling to that work . That a man , though never so good , with never so good a minde , should exercise the office , or do ( though the best ) works of a Magistrate , father of famillie , housband , steward , citizen , or messenger , except he were first lawfully called , and preferred to the state of a Magistrate , maister of sam●lie , housband , or the like ; so far were he from deserving anie praise for so doing , as on the contrarie he most justly incur●ed the censure of great rashnes , and violation of all order in familie and common wealth ; as taking unto himself that honour , unto which he was not called of God. The same houldeth , and that specially in course of Religion , which is the specially state of mans life : so as if anie either as a Pastour dispence the holy things of the ministeriall Church , without a lawfull pastorall calling going before ; or participate in the same , out of a just , and lawfull Church-state ; neither that dispensation , nor this participation can be warranted , but both the one , and other are usurpations , and in which is seen not the use , but abuse of holy things , and confusion of order . And as it behoveth everie person first to beleev , and know , that he is truly a Christian , and partaker of the grace of Christ , before he can hope to please God in the performance of this or that particular Christian work ; so doth it also concern everie Christian to provide , that he be first possessed of a just , and lawfull Church-order , before he so much as touch with his least finger the holy things of the Church thereunto proper , and peculiar . Proper , I say , & peculiar , amongst which I do not simpl●e reckon the hearing of the word , which both lawfullie may , and necessarily ought to be done , not onely of Christians though members of no particular church , but even of Infidels , prophane persons , excommunicates , and any others : as being that in which no communion spirituall passeth , either ecclesiasticall , or personall , between the teacher , & heater , but according to some union ecclesiasticall or personall going before : seeing that Christian saith comes by hearing the gospell , by faith union , & from union communion . This thus prem sed , I will speak a few things of the Church of England ; not by way of accusation of it , but for our own purgation in the eyes of the godly , and equall Reader , of the imputed c●ime of Schism , so far as truth , and equitie will bear . And first , seeing that the people of God is materially ( as they speak , the church of God , it is required to the constitution of a holy Church of God , that the people be holy , or saints and sanctified i● Christ Iesus : truely , and internally in regard of God , and their own consciences ; externally , and in appearance in respect of others , whom it concerns to discern and judg of them , according to the word of God , and rule of charitie . And considering that our question is about the Church externall , and visible , as it is called , we are not so fond , or raitha● frant●ck , as to require , in respect of others , other holynes in the members thereof , then that which is visible and externall . Now how marvaylous a thing is it , and lamentable withall , that amongst Christians anie should be found so far at ods , with Christian holines , as to think that others then apparently holy at the least , deserved admittance into the fellowship of Christs church , and therewith of Christ ? Do , or can the grat●ous promises of God made to the Church , the heavenly blessings due to the Church , the seales of divine grace given to the Church , apperteyn to others then such ? Are others to be admitted into the familie of God , the kingdom of Christ , and as it were the suburbs of heaven ? The Church of God is by him called , and destinated to advance his glorie in the holynes of their lives , and conversations ; what then have those to do with it , or it with those , who , as Calvin saith , live not but with Gods dishonour ? For they , as the same author both truly and holily affirmeth ) who are called , and accounted the people of God , do bear as it were in their forheads , the name of God , whereupon it cannot but come to passe , that before men even God himself after a sort should be steyned with their filth . And this I deem the raither to be observed , seeing that there are to be found , and these not a few , who would thrust upon the churches of our thrice holy Lord , a verie stage-like holynes : stoutly striveving to make it good , that to constitute a true , and lawfull member of the visible church , no more is required , then that a man with his mouth confesse Christ , although in his works he plainly declare himself to be of the synagogue of Sathan . But what saith the holy spirit of these impure spirits ? They professe they know God , saith the Apostle , but in their works they deny him , being abhominable , and rebellious , and to everie good work reprobate . Are abhominable persons to be brought into the temple of God ? rebellious persons into the kingdom of God ? such as are reprobate unto everie good work into the familie of God , which is as it were the Storehouse of all good works ? If anie one that is called a brother , be a fornicatour , or covetous , or idolatour , or rayler , or drunkard , or extortioner , or anie waie a wicked one , such a one by the Apostles direction , is to be expelled , and driven out of the churches confines . And seeing that , as one truly saith , It is a matter of greater contumelie to thrust out , then to keep out a guest , with what conscience can such plagues be receaved into the church , to the purgeing out wherof the same church , furnished for that end with the power of Christ , stands in conscience bound ? or by what authoritie I pray , can such persons be compelled into the bosom of the spouse of Christ , as for the expelling of whom far from her fellowship , & imbraceing all authoritie ought to conspire ? He that saith he hath fellowship with God , and walks in darknes is a lyer , and doth not truly . Profession of Christ therefore with the mouth , in those that work the works of darknes , and so by consequence , that by which a man is raither branded for a naturall child of the divell , then marked for a true member of the Church . Lastly , David that holy man of God , and tipe of Christ , doth holily professe , that he who works deceipt , shall not continue in his house : And shall the workers of decept , and of all wickednes not onely be admitted , but even constreyned into the house of the living God , which the church is : O Iehovah , holynes becometh thine house to length of dayes . Which notwithstanding ( a sicknes desperate of all remedie ) that so it stands with the Church of England , no man to whom England is known , can be ignorant : seeing that all the natives there , and subjects of the kingdom , although never such strangers from all shew of true pietie , and goodnes , and fraught never so full with manie most heynous impieties , and vices ( of which ranck whether there be not an infinite , and far the greater number , I would to God it could with anie reason be doubted ) are without difference compelled , and inforced by most seveere lawes civill & ecclesiasticall , into the bodie of that church . And of this confused heap ( a few , compared with the rest , godly persons mingled among ) is that nationall church , commonly called the Church of England , collected , and framed . And such is the materiall constitution of that church . But if now you demaund of me , how it is formally constituted ; & whether upon profession of fayth , and repentance ( in word at least ) made by them of years , any combynation , and consociation of the members into particular congregations , ( which consociation doth formally constitute the ministeriall Church , and members thereof , as both the Scriptures and reason manifest ) either is , or hath been made since the universall and Antichristian apostasie and defection in poperie ? Nothing lesse ; but onely by their parrish perambulation , as they call it , and standing of the houses in which they dwell . Everie subject of the kingdom dwelling in this or that parrish , whether in cittie , or countrie , whether in his own or other mans house , is thereby , ipso facto , made legally a member of the same parrish in which that house is situated : and bound , will he , nill he , fit , or unfit , as with iron bonds , and all his with him , to participate in all holy things , & some unholy also in that same parrish church . If any object , that yet the minister of the parish may suspend from the supper of the Lord flagitious persons , and so by complaint made to M. Chancelour , or M. Officiall , procure their excommunication ; to let passe , that this is meerly a matter of form for the most part , and a remedie as ill , as the disease , I do answer , that even by this is proved undeniablie that which I intend : viz. that all these parrishioners before mentioned , are not without , but within , and members of the Church ( and the same , as before constituted ) whom she judgeth . There is besides these a third evill in the way , and the same as predominant , and overtopping all other things in that church , as was Saul higher then all the rest of the people : and with whose Rehoboam-like ●inger we miserable men are pressed , and oppressed : and that is , the Hierarchicall church government in the hands of the Lord Bishops and their substitutes : ( the verie same with that of Rome , the Pope the head onely cut off , upon whose shoulders also many , though not without notable injurie , would place the supreme Magistrate ) and administred by the self same Canon law . Now this vast , and unsatiable Hierarchicall gulfe , swallowing up and devouring the whole order , and use of the presbyterie , and therewith the peoples libertie , and withall , by M. Parkers testimonie ( with whom a Bishop in England is the Pastour of the whole diocesse , and the Priests or ministers , onely his delegates and helpers ) the verie office of the Pastours themselvs , as did the seaven lean , and evill favoured kine the seaven fat , and the seaven wizened ears the seaven full that went before them , and so by consequence , not being of Christ the Lord , but of him rayther , who opposeth and advanceth himself against whatsoever is called God , or is worshiped ; so as he sits in the Temple of God , as God , ( for unto God alone dwelling in his Temple it apperteyns to appoint the offices of the ministers , & to prescribe the peoples bonds ) our hands are bound by that supreme , and sole authoritie of Iesus Christ in his Churches , upon which both the order of Presbyterie , and libertie of people , and office of Pastour are founded , and from whom as the one onely Lord , all ecclesiasticall power floweth , and by whom all ministeries are instituted , from giving any the least honour or obedience to the same hie●archicall exaltation in it self , or its subordinates , which ( as phylosophi● teacheth ) are one with it . Wherein yet I would not so be understood , as if we were at anie defiance with the persons of the Bishops , much lesse with the kings civill authoritie whereof they are possessed , whether in matters civill or ecclesiasticall . Of their persons their own Lords shall judg , to whom they stand or fall . There have been of that ranke who in our Marian da●es have preferred the profession of the truth of the gospell before their lives : I hope there are also of their successours , who , if pressed with the same necessitie ( which God forbid ) would give the same testimonie , though at the same rate , unto the same truth of God revealed unto them . Now as concerning their civill authoritie ; albeit we do not beleev , that the same is at all competent to the true ministers of the gospell , especially in that eminencie , externall glorie , and pompe of this world , in which they far exceed manie worldly princes , and rayther seem to represent the tryumphant , then the militant church ; yet for so much as they both obteyn the same by the gift of the king , and exercise it in his name , we do not unwillingly yeald honour , and obedience unto it , and to his majestie in it . But whereas it seems unto manie plain , and evident , that we may adjoin our selvs to the Church of England without any subjection , or relation unto the spirituall government , and governers thereof ; that is altogether beyond our capacities : neither can we comprehend it , how it may be that he , who subjects , and joyns himself to anie publique , and politique bodie , or communitie , whether spirituall , or civil , becomes not in so doing , ipso facto , subject to the publique government , and governers thereof , and undergoes not a relation , and respect actually unto them . They raither are with all seriousnes to consider , how faythfully , and sincerely they quit themselvs , and their consciences before God , and men , who contending , and proving in and by so manie words , and arguments , that the hierarchicall government is papall , and Antichristian , do neverthelesse submit themselvs thereunto both in the respect , and relation politicall formerly mentioned , and also in acts properly ecclesiasticall , into which the ecclesiasticall government , and spirituall policie of the church doth necessarily diffuse it self . Now I do earnestly entreat thee , whosoever thou art , acquainted with Belgick , or raither Christian libertie , and either free from the mists of prejudice , or if anie way prejudiced , yet not chusing raither to serve a preconceaved opinion , then to follow an apparent truth , that thou wouldest truly & ingenuously tell , whether if the Magistrates here ( from which they are far ) should by publique edict , under severe penaltie constreyn all , and everie the native subjects of the countrie into the bosom of the church , without anie difference made , either in respect of fayth or manners , according to the place of their habitation , and should set over this church so collected and constituted , an Hierarchicall Bishop provinciall or diocesan , in whose hands alone , with his Officials , Chauncellours , Commissaries , Archdeacons , and other Court-keepers , canonicall authoritie should be placed , to constitute and depose ministers , excommunicate , and absolve both ministers , and people , yea whole churches ( yea with the living the dead , that they may obteyn Christian buriall ) : whether now in this confused heap , and under this spirituall Lordship , thou wouldest endure to remain either Pastour or member . I suppose not . You ( brethren ) have not so learned Christ ; whom you acknowledg both for the author of your faith , and instituter of your order ecclesiasticall . Neyther yet we , having learned otherwise by the grace of God. Christ the king doth gather , and form unto himself another kinde of kingdom amongst men , and the same to be administred by other officers , and according to other lawes . And if no place upon the face of the ●ruth should be free for us ( poore creatures ) refusing upon meer conscience of God ( as thou God the judg , and searcher of hearts knowest ) to commingle , and prostitute our selvs in and unto this confusion , and domination hierarchicall , we have most assured hope , that heaven it self is open for us by Christ , who is the way , and whom in this dutie also we do serve , in which we shall at the length be fully free from this , and all other incumbrances . Our adversaries bear in hand not onely others , but even us our selvs also , that we do for certain trifleing matters , & as they speak , circumstantiall corruptions , sequester our selvs from the Church of England . And as nurses use to lisp with children , so they , that they might discend to our capacities , do oft and much instruct us , that unworthie members must be born in the church , especially of private persons ; that some corruptions at least in the discipline and externall rites , are to be tolerated ; that there may be the temple of God , though prophaned ; the holy cittie though without a wall ; the feild of the Lord , though the enemie sowtares amongst the wheat ; also a heap of wheat , though much chaffe commingled therewithall . And that we , dul-bayards as we are ; may at the length conceav those things , they verie seriously inculcate & whet upon us in these & the like considerations : as that the Israelitish church in its time was steyned with almost all enormities , both for manners and fayth : that ●nto the same all Israelites and Iewes whatsoever without difference , were violently compelled by King Iosiah and others ; as also , that in the parable , all were compelled to come to the mariage , good and bad , that the house might be filled . Lastly , that in the Apostolick Churches themselvs , there were not wanting some who practised , and others who taught vile , and evill things : that in one place the discipline was neglected , in another the verie doctrine of fayth corrupted , and manie the like matters , which it were to long to repeat . Surely , foolish were we if we knew not these things , impudent , if we denyed them to be true for the most part ; and lastly , unequall , if we acknowledged not , that manie the same , or like blemishes after a sort , will , and do creep into the Churches of our dayes : which yet to disclaym as unlawfull for the same , stood neither with wisdom , nor charitie . But the prudent Reader may plainly observe by the premises , that they are other matters , and of greater weight , for the most part , wherewith we , and our consciences are pressed . We do not judg it an evill intollerable ( though greatly to be bewayled ) that evill men should be suffered in the church ; but that all of most vile , and desperate condition , that such , and so great a kingdom affoards , should thereinto will they , nill they , be compelled : nor that the discipline ( as they call it ) or ecclesiast call government instituted by Christ , is neglected or violated , but that another plain contrarie unto it is set up by law , and fully , and publiquely everie where exercised : Neither lyes our exception against any personall , or acc●dentarie profanation of the Temple , but against the faultie frame of it , in respect of the causes constitutive , matter and form : Neither strive we about the walles of the cittie , but about the true , and lawfull citizens , the policie and government of the cittie of God , and essentiall administration of the same . But to give more ful satisfaction to the indifferent reader , it seems worth the labour to descend particularly to a few , and the same the cheifest objections made on the contrarie behalf . And of them , that which may and ought to be said touching the Church of Israel , & its condition compared with the christian churches seems to deserve the first place . And touching it ; first , the constitution of the Church of Israel is not to be considered in that whole , much lesse apostaticall , nation , but in holy Abraham , from whom it came , & in whom it was holy , as the lump in the first fruits , & the branches in the holy root : and that by vertue of the gratious covenant , I will be thy God , & the God of thy seed , first contracted with Abraham himself , & after renued with his seed , whole Israell . But now to affirm any such thing of the whole English nation were foolish ; to prove it impossible . 2. God doth not now a daies select , & seve● from others as his peculiar , anie whole nation or people , as sometimes he did the people of Israel , both ecclesiastically , & civilly : but in everie nation they who feare God , & work righteousnes are accepted of him . These , in what natiō soever combyning together in holy covenant , and worshiping God after the prescript of his H. word are that holy nation , the common wealth of Israel , the Israel of God , the temple & tabernacle of the living God , in which he hath promised to dwell : these he would have scattered in all places of the world , & to hould intercourse with the men of the world in the common affairs of this life , for their gaming if it may be unto Christ : God adding dayly unto the church such as should be saved . Whereas on the contrarie , unto the church of England , whereof all natural English are together , & at once made members , it can hardly be , if at all , that anie at anie time should be added . 3. The verie land of Canaan was legally holy , & the land of the Lords inheritance , & whose fruit was to be circumcised , & her sabbaths kept , by the Lords appointment : & in which alone by divine ●●ght 〈◊〉 were to be payed . And as holy things are not to be mingled with , or prost●tuted unto prophane , so neither was anie place in this land to be permitted unto prophane persons to dwell in . The seven prophane nations , which formerly had inhabited it , were altogether to be destroyed by the Israelites being to possesse it for their inheritance , neither was mercie to be shewed them . After , if any , whether born in the land , or strangers , did ought with an high hand , he was to be cut off from among his people . Herewith accords that of David the king , I will betime destroy all the wicked of the land . Lastly , ●e that did not seek the Lord God of Israell with all his heart , was to be put 〈◊〉 death , whether small or great , whether man or woman . Far be it from Godly princes , & other potentates in the world , to think , that it behooveth them in this rigorous manner to deal with their subjects : although there want not , who partly from a preposterous , & Iudaizeing zeal , & partly to serv their own ambition , cease not to inculcate unto the kings of the earth , above that is meet , the examples of the kings of Iudah . 4. It is not true that the kings of Iudah or Israel did const●●yn any into the church by force , or compel them to undergo the condition of members , but only being members , to do their dutie . All the Israel●tes and posteritie of Iakob , had their part in the Lords covenant : unto which also they were bound to stand under perill of cutting off from the Lords people , both spiritually & bodily , according to the dispensation of the ould Testament in the land of Canaan . But of this our question is not for the present : That neither is to be considered , whether king David , Salomon , Iehosaphat & others did force circumcision , & other Mosaicall institutions upon the Edom●tes , Ammonites , and others by them subdued , & held in civill subjection ; or whether they compelled them by coactive lawes , would they , nould they , fit or unfit , into the Church of God. That this was so , cannot be affirmed with modestie : which yet except it so were , hath nothing in it , which e●ther can hurte our cause , or help our adversaries . Lastly , he who well weigheth with himself what legall , and typicall holines was in use of old in Israel , shadowing out the true , & sp●ritual holines ; and withall by how much , both the more clear revelat on of heavenly things , & more plenteous grace of the spirit ●s afforded to the churches since Christ , then was formerly to Israel , he shall see manie things making for the tolerating of much in Israel ; which in us 〈◊〉 plainly intollerable : and that God will not use that patience & long-suffering towards any church now , nor permit , or wink at those things in it , which for the hardnes of their hearts , he bore in that ancient people . The parable of the tares Matth. 13. followeth ; with which as with some thunderboult , men both learned , and unlearned think us beaten all to fitters . But first , these words , Let both grow togither till the harvest , v. 30. ( frō which alone they do dispute ) Christ the Lord doth not expound nor meddle with , in the opening of the parable : from them therefore nothing firm can be concluded . 2. Christ him●elf interprets the feild , not the Churh , but the world v. 38. as also the harvest not the end of the Church , but of the world , v. 39. And if by the world , you understand the Church , you must needs say , that Christ in the expounding of one parable , used another . 3. Both the text it self , & reason of the thing do plainly teach that he doth not speak at all of excommunication , which servs for the bettering of the tares , but of their finall rooting up to perd●tion . Lastly , admit Christ spake of men apparently wicked in the Church , either not to be excommunicated in certain cases ( which with Gellius Snecanus I confidently denie ) or not excommunicated as they ought to be , & therefore to be born of private members ; the former of which is too ordinarie , especially in Churches enjoying peace , & prosperitie : the latter of which ( the Church not being desperately bent on evill ) I easily assent to , yet doth this place affoard no medicine for our grief ; which ariseth not from any corrupt , or negligent administration of the Churches discipline , thorough the car●lesnes or want of wisdom ( it may be too much wisdom such as it is ) of the administers thereof , which are personall things ; but from the verie constitution of the church it self , & subject of ecclesiasticall both government and power . Yea , I ad unto all these things , that we for our parts are willing in the busines , and controversie in hand to appeal unto the tribunall of this verie parable , and that expounded by our adversaries themselvs , & do willingly condiscend , that by it alone judgment be given in this matter . Our Saviour Christ doth plainly teach , that this feild was sown with good seed alone ; & that after , whilst men slept , the enemie , the divel came , & sowed ●ares amongst the wheat . But on the contrarie , in the sowing the English f●●ld , whether we respect the nat●onall or parochiall churches , together with the wheat the tares , & that exceeding the other infinitely , were at first , & yet are sown , & that of purpose , & under most severe penalt●●s . And hence is the first & princ●pall pr●judice to our English harvest , & frō which I conceav all the rest to come . For unto this Ch. thus clapped , & clouted together of all persons of all sorts , & spirits without difference , no man equally & prudently weighing things , can denie , but that the pompous & imperious Hierarchicall government , together with all its accessories doth right well accorde . To the things objected from the parable of the mariage Luke 14. & Mat. 22. I onely answer , that those servants were the Prophets and Apostles ; the son Christ himself ; the compulsion to be made no otherwise , then by the preaching of the word : by which , as Calvin hath it , God doth importunately sollicit our slo●thfulnes , not onely pricking us with exhortations , but cōpelling us with threatnings to come unto him : which word of God as it is by some wholly contemned , so doth it extort from others , onely an externall & hypocritical obedience , but by manie is receaved , through the blessing of God , with al holy & devout affection . Now unto these pa●ables of Christ manie are wont , and that very busily , to annex one of their own . A heap , say they , of wheat although it have much chaf mixed with it , & the 〈◊〉 more in quantitie then the wheat is , 〈◊〉 notwithstanding truly , & is rightly termed a heap of wheat ; according to the Phylo●ophers rule , The den●mination to not of the greater , but better part . I answer ; first , that this axiom is not simply true : for if in the church , or any other convention popular , or in which things passe by voyces , the greater part hap to exceed the better , the denominat on of that passage , or decree , and so the whole processe of the matter , is according to the greater , though the worser part . 2. The chaf in that wheat is either of the same wheat , or of other , & brought from els where : if of that same , then it makes nothing to the present purpose , since wicked men appe●●ein not to the persons of the godly , no● are their chaf : if of other , & from els where , it may easily be added in that quantitie & proportion , as that neither it may deserv the name of an heap of wheat , but of chaf ; nor he that sels it for wheat , of an honest merchant , but of a deceiptfull impostour . 4. The things objected from the Apostolicall Churches are altogether personall , & accidentall ; from which that the churches gathered of men , and by men governed , should be exempted , is ●aither to be desired , then hoped for . But for us , the things which most afflict us in the Ch. of England , & presse us in the respect fore-mentioned to a secession from the same , do concern the verie materiall , & formall constitution of the ministeriall church , together with the essentiall administration of the Church-policie . And how different these things are , who seeth not ? Lastly , it is objected , that in the Ch. of England lively faith , & true pietie are both begotten , and nourished , in the hearts of many , by the preaching of the gospell there . God forbid , that we should not acknowledg that , & withall , that infinite thanks for the same are due to Gods great power & goodnes , both in respect of our selvs and others : Who notwithstanding the great confusion , both of persons , and things there to be found , vouchsafeth to his elect so plentifull grace , covering under the vayl of his superaboundant goodnes & mercy , by their ●●ncere fayth in Christ Iesus , their sins & aberrations , whether of ignorance , or infirmitie . What then must be done ? should we continue in sin , that grace might abound ? or shall we against knowledg go on to walk inordinately , because in our ignorance God hath vouchsafed us of his grace in that disordered state of things ? without the ministerial church ( of which we speak ) the preaching of the gospell both may , & useth to be had , & by it sayth to be ingenerated , except christian churches be to be gathered of infidels & unbeleevers . Besides , what Minos , or Rha●amant will deny , that even in the bosom of the Romish church some fa●thfull persons may be found ? how much more in that of England , in which the main truths of the gospell , the most & greatest errours of poperie being banished , are taught by so manie godly & learned men , with such zeal , and earnestnes ? Now what of these things ? Is it therefore lawfull for a Christian , eyther to content himself with himself , without joyning to any christian congregation ; or to continue still in the bosom of the church of Rome , as a member under the Pope th● head ? I therefore conclude out of M. Brightman , whose words I had raither use then mine own , speaking of the government & ministerie of the Church of England , The fruit , to wit , of the word preached , doth no more exempt from blame our corruptions , then a true child doth adulterie . And here thou hast ( Christian Reader ) the whole order of our conversation in the work of Christian religion , set down both as breifly , and plainly , as I could . If in anie thing we●er , advertise us brotherly , with desire of our information , & not ( as our countrimens manner for the most part is ) with a minde of reproaching us , or grat fying of others : and whom thou findest in errour , thou shalt not leave in obstinacie , nor as having a minde prone to schism . E●re we may ( alasse too easily ) : but heretiques ( by the grace of God ) we will not be ? But & if the things which we do , seem ●ight in thine eyes , ( as to us certainly they do ) I do earnestly , & by the Lord Iesus admonish and exhort thy godly minde , that thou wilst neither withould thy due obedience frō his truth , no● just succour from thy distressed brethren . Neither do thou indure , that either the smalnes of the number , or meannes of the ●ondition of those that professe it , should prejudice with thee the pro●ssion of the truth : but have in minde that of Te●tullian , Do we measure mens faith by their persons , or their persons by their faith ? as also that of Austin , Let matter weigh with matter , and cause with cause , and rea●●● with reason : but especially that of the Apostle , My brethren , have 〈◊〉 the faith of our glorious Lord Iesus Christ in respect of persons . But now , it so come to passe ( which God forbid ) that the most being eyther forestalled by prejudice , or by prosperitie made secure , there be few found especially men of learning , who will so far vouchsafe to stoop , as to look upon so despised creatures , and their cause ; this alone remaineth that we turn our faces & mouths unto thee ( o most powerfull Lord , & gratious father ) humbly imploreing help from God towards those , who are by men left desolate . There is with thee no respect of persons , neither are men lesse regarders of thee , if regarders of thee , so the worlds disregarding them . They who truly fear thee , and wo●● righteousnes , although constreyned to live by leav in a forrain land , exiled from countrie , spoyled of goods , destitute of freinds , few in number , and mean in condition , are for all that unto thee ( O gratious God ) nothing the lesse acceptable : Thou numbrest all their wandrings , and puttest their tears into thy bottels : Are they not written in thy book ? Towards thee , O Lord , are our eyes ; confirm our hearts , & bend thine ear , and suffer not our feet to slip , or our face to be ashamed , O thou both just , and mercifull God. To him through Christ be praise , for ever , in the Church of Saints ; and to thee ( loving and Christian Reader ) grace , peace , and eternall happines . Amen . FINIS . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A10834-e100 Ierom to P●●●mach . Ioh. 3. Tertullian 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 . Cypr. tr●ct . 〈…〉 Psal. 22 , 9. Act. 15. 21. Harmonie of Confess . Of the script . Art. 6 , Conf. Belg. Preface to the ●arm of Confess . Act. 2 , 42. Heb. 10 , 25. Te●tul Apol. ch . 37. 1 Cor. 10. 17 Act. 20 , 17 , 28. Iunius 〈◊〉 . lib. 1 , cap. 2. Object . Answ. See Sadell against Tur. in solut . 2. sylog on Math. 1● . Scalig de subul . ex●● . ●07 . 1 Cor. 12 , 27. 2 Cor. 6 , 10● & 11 , 2. 〈◊〉 . ●n Prov. Eph. 4 , 4 , 5. See I●arm . of C●nfess . Belg. & French , Calvin , Be●a . &c. C●los . 2 , 11 , 12. 1 Cor. 5 , 12. T●●tul of ●ipt . ch . 18. Iu●us annot . in ide● cap. Psay 29 , 13. Mat. 28 , 10. Co●os . 2 , 23. 1 〈◊〉 . 3. 1● . 〈◊〉 6. Iam. 5. 17. 1 Cor. 14 , 16 ● phes 5 , 19. Colos. 3 , 16. Scalig. po●t . li 1. c● . 2. Iude 21. Cyprian . de ●at . domin . Mat. 6 , 6. Iam. 4 , 13. Calv. in Iam. ch . 4. v. 15. Idem in Mat 6 , 9. Vrsiu●s , B●can●s , Piscator , P●●●ins , &c. Tertull lib. de Ora● . Exod. 4 , 22. See M. 〈◊〉 son of written 〈◊〉 . Gal. 6 , 16. Calvin . in Gene● . c. 27 1. 1 Tim. 2 , 8 ▪ Bucanus cōm●n places of prayer . 1 Thes. 5 , 19. 1 Cor. 12 , 7. Act. 6. 2 Cor. 2 , 16. Rom. 8 , 26. T●tul . Apol. against the Gentles . Zac. 12 , 10. Rom. 8 , 26 , Iude ●0 . Zac 11 , 15. 1 Tim. ● 2. Tit. 1 , 5 , 7 , 9 〈…〉 gov . nam . p4 . 32 , 33 , 44. pag. 34. 35 , 36. Act. 20 , 17 , 28. 〈◊〉 . 28 , 29 , 30 , 31. Numb . 8. I●vi . 17 , 9 , 10. 1 Tim. 5 , 21. ●nd 6 , 14. 1 Corm . 14 , 37. 1 Tim. 5 , 11 , ●2 . Colos. 4 , 17. 1 Thes 5 , 12 , 13. 1 Tim. 5 , 17. Act. 20 , 17 , 28. 1 Cor. 10 , 17 Act. 2 , 44 , 45. 1 Tim. 5 , 20. Beza in ann . on the place . Math. 18 , 15 1● , 17. Beza , Zanch●us , Parker , G Bucer , &c. Aug●●●t of Ch●●● . 〈◊〉 lib. 3. Bish of Winch●●● , ans●●● to Tertus pa. 43. 2 Ge●in . 11 , 28. ver . 1 , 2 , 4 , 7 ▪ 13. v. 1. 7. i●s . 9. 11. ch . 7 , 9 , 11. and 2 , 7 , 8. See the Bishop of Church , answer to Tertus p. 41 , 42. Whitakers of the authoritie of the Script . lib. 1. See 〈…〉 chap. 2. Pet. Ma● . 〈◊〉 1 ●or . ch . 5. Act. 1. Cyprian l. 1. Epist. 4. ver . 15. Gal. 1 , 1. Calvin in Act. 1. Act. 6. Act. 14. 1 Tim. 3. Tit. 1. Act 15. See Whit k. of the author . of II. 〈◊〉 lib. 1 , ch . 5. sect . 1. See Iohan. Wolph . in 2 long . c. 23. 〈◊〉 . against Heres . ●ib . 3. Theodor. dial . 1. Tertull. against Hermog . Mat. 28 , 20. ● Cor. 14 , 37 ch . 4. 1. a Cor. 5 , 5. ● Tim. 3. 2 Cor. 4 , 5. 1 Tim. 4 , 16 , ch . 5 , 17 , 18. Cypr. Epist. 4 , li. 4 , 1. Math. 18. 1 Corinth . 5. Chrisost. in Epist. to Tit , See Bodin of Commonu● . book 1. chap. last . 1 Cor. 12. 28 1 Tim. 5 , 17 Heb. 13 , 17. Act. 20 , 18. 1 Cor. 14 , 34 , 35. 1 Tim. 2 , 12. Exod. 31 , 13 Exod. 20. 〈◊〉 . 3 , 16 , ● . K●ch●m . cu●s phyl . d●●p . 28 , c. 6. G●n . 1 , 27. & 2 , 22. Chem. ●xam . part . 2 of mar . Bu●anu● in Commo● places . 〈…〉 pag. 11 , 12. Math. 5 , 18. Exod. 25 , & 26. Exod. 20. Num. 29 , 38 Ex●d . 20. Ephes. 6 , 2. 2 Cor. 8. 17 Luke 7 , 28. Calv. in Act 1 , 3. Ioh. 20 , 19 26. Luke 24. 36 〈◊〉 Gen 2 , 2. Mat. 28 , 18. Act. 20 , 26. 1 Cor. 4 , 1. 1 Cor. 14 , 37 Act. 20 , 66 , 27. 1 Cor. 16 , 1 , 2. Rev 1. 10 ▪ ●gnat ad Magnes . ●ull . Martyr . Apol. 2. Tertull. de Idol Eus●b . l. 4 , 23 de Dionis . August . de verb. Apoll. serm . 15. 1 Pet. 1 , 3. Esay 58 , 13. Gal. 4 , 1. Esay . 58 , 13 , 14. Colos. 2 , 16. 17. Exod. 31 , 13. Armin. in theol . disp . pr●v . p. 186 , 187. Gen. 49 , 3. Gal. 3. 8 , 16 , 17. Mat. 24 , 20 Chrisost ho●● 77. 〈◊〉 Mat. 24. 〈◊〉 . 3. Var 〈…〉 〈…〉 Gen. 2 , 2. Harm Synod 〈◊〉 . pag. 21 22. 2 Cor. 4. 13. Luke 2 , 46 , 47 & 〈◊〉 4 , 15 , 16. Ad. 8 , 4 n●th 11 19 , 20. 21. & ch . 13. 14 15 16 & ch . 18 , 24 , 25 , 26 , & ● In. 18 , 18. Mat. 23. 34. 1 Cor. 1 , 20. 〈…〉 1 Cor 14 〈…〉 P. 1. 〈◊〉 on 1 Cor. 14 , 31. ●ph . 2 , 20. ch . 3 , 4. 5. Fool 15 , 21. Iudg. 5 , 1. ● Kin. 22 , 14 〈◊〉 2 , 36. Apoc. 2 , 20. 1 Pet. 4 , 10 , 11. 1 This. 5 , 9 2● . 1 Tim. 1 , 3. 1 Ioh. 4. 1. Apo. 2 , 2 , 7. with c. 1 , 11. See 〈◊〉 . Acent . ●ra●ag . ●ath . pag. 168 , 169. Iuke 2 , 40. & 4 , 21 , 2● . Act. 17 , 2. & 18 , 24 , 26 , 28. 1 Cor 14 35 〈…〉 l. 6 , c. 12 , 3● 1 Cor. 14 , 4 , 24 , 25. Act. 20 28. 〈◊〉 against Tu●● . S●●h . pa. 67 , 68. 〈◊〉 Mart. in 1 〈◊〉 . 14 , 29. 〈…〉 2 , 15. Pet. Mart 〈◊〉 2 〈◊〉 . 10 , 27. Ioh. Wolph ●n 2 King. 17 , 19 , and 19 , 6. Math. 15 , 9. Izec . 44. 11 Ma● . 20. 2● . 2 Cor. 4 , 5. 1 Pet. 1 , 3. August of the 〈◊〉 of God l. 19. B●r●t . of Caus. 〈◊〉 . 2. 〈◊〉 contr . 3. l. 5 , c. 7 , 〈…〉 c. 18. 〈…〉 on 2 〈◊〉 . of 〈◊〉 . ●p of Ch●● . to ●citus ● . 35. R●n . 13 , 4. Rom. 10 , 10 ▪ He●● . 5. 4. Rom 1 , 7. 1 Cor. 1 , 2. 2 Cor. 1 , 1. Calvin in 1 Conn . c. 5. Idem in Rom. 2 , 24. Revel . 4. 8. Tit. 1 , 16. 1 Cor. 5. 1 Ioh. 1 , 6. Ioh. 8. 40. Psa. 101 , 7. Psal. 93 , 5. 1 Corin. 5 , 11 , 12. Park . eccles . pol 3 , 35. and Hier. generally . Gen. 41. 2 Thes. 2 , 4. 1 Chran . 29 , 11 , 12 , 13 , 19. 1 Cor. 5 , 4. ch , 12 , 5 , 28. Rom. 14 , 14 Theodoret. Dial. 1. Colos. 2 , 5. Rom. 11 , 16. Gen. 17. 7. Exod 10. 6. L●v. ●0 25. Act. 10 , 35. 1 Cor 5 , 10. Act. 2 , 42. 〈…〉 19 , ●● , 25. Gen. 14. 〈…〉 . 〈◊〉 7 , 15 Num. 1● . 13. 〈…〉 15. 12 1● . See Rev. 2 , 5. and 3 , 16. & ●●thall Par●u● on 1 Cor. 7 , 11. vers . 28 , 29 , 30 , 31. Se● S●ee . of ch . di●cip . 2 part m●th . 2. p. 24 , 27 , 25 28. Calvin in Math. 22 , 9. M. Bright on Rev ch vers . 26. Ter●u● pre●er 〈◊〉 Heret . Austin against Maxim. 3 , 14. Iames 2 , 1. 
A04541	----	An inquirie and ansvver of Thomas VVhite his discoverie of Brovvnisme. By Francis Iohnson Pastor of the exiled English Church at Amsterdam in Holland Johnson, Francis, 1562-1618. 1606 Approx. 256 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 55 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-10 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A04541 STC 14662 ESTC S119435 99854642 99854642 20072 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A04541) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 20072) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1475-1640 ; 1314:03) An inquirie and ansvver of Thomas VVhite his discoverie of Brovvnisme. By Francis Iohnson Pastor of the exiled English Church at Amsterdam in Holland Johnson, Francis, 1562-1618. White, Thomas, fl. 1605. Discoverie of Brownisme: or a brief declaration of some of the errors and abhominations daily practiced and increased among the English company of the seperation remayning for the present at Amsterdam in Holland. [16], 92 p. G. Thorp?], [Amsterdam : 1606. Imprint from STC. In response to: White, Thomas. A discoverie of Brownisme: or a brief declaration of some of the errors and abhominations daily practiced and increased among the English company of the seperation remayning for the present at Amsterdam in Holland. Reproduction of the original in the Bodleian Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. 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Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Brownists -- Early works to 1800. 2004-10 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-11 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-01 Judith Siefring Sampled and proofread 2005-01 Judith Siefring Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion AN INQVIRIE AND ANSVVER Of Thomas VVhite his Discoverie of Brovvnisme . By Francis Iohnson Pastor of the exiled English Church at Amsterdam in Holland . Psal. 55.12.13.14 . Suerly myne enemy did not defame me : for I could haue 〈◊〉 it : neither did mine adversarie exalt himself against me : for I would have hid me frō him . But it was thou ▪ O man , even my companiō , my guide , & my 〈…〉 Which delighted in consulting together , and went into the house 〈…〉 companions . 1606. TO THE CHRISTIAN READER , grace and peace from Christ our Lord & Saviour . TWo sorts of adversaries , the Church still hath among men . The one , of such as be without : the other , of such as arise from within the Church it self . Both heavie enemies : but the latter , far the more grievous , many wayes . By both of them haue we ( as others before vs ) ben exercised , a long time , and in straunge maner . Yet in and against them all , hath the Lord by his power and of his mercy hitherto preserved vs , and I trust will so do vnto the end . Of late hath risen vp one Thomas White , despitefully reviling vs , and wickedly blaspheming the Name and tabernacle of the Lord. A man , that was himself heretofore separated from the Church of England , holding the Prelacy Ministery worship and confusion thereof to be antichristian : VVho also was a joyned member of a Church in the VVest parts of England professing the same faith with vs : And afterward coming over to Amsterdam , and desiring to be partaker of the Lords supper with vs , did in our publick meeting before vs all , with his owne mouth , testify his consent with vs in the same faith we professe : From which he is now revolted : and of which he is become a notable adversarie : setting himself tooth and nayle ( what he can ) against vs and our cause : and that both privately & publickly , as now himself hath manifested to the world . So as in himself ( though it may seem straunge ) are found both the extremities , whereof he speaketh in his Preface , which bring no small annoyance to the Church of God , hypocrisie , and prophanenes . His hypocrisie , now layd open , in the particulars aforesaid , and many other knowen vnto vs concerning him . His prophanenes , plainly appearing , both in forsaking the truth of Christ ( as Esau sold his birthright for a messe of pottage ) and in oppugning it in this maner : which sheweth in him a despising , if not a despiting also of the trueth : as Esau contemned the birthright , when he had sold it . And thus the instance , which he would falsely give in others , may fitly be observed in himself , for both the extremities aforesaid : As also that howsoever they seem to differ the one from the other , yet indeed they strengthen & harden each other , with a mutuall reciprocation , and proceed also the one from the other , howsoever for a while envy do cloak it self vnder the name of zeale &c. VVhich that it may yet the better appeare both in and from himself , I will here set down a letter of his , written while he held our cause , to a Minister of the Church of England : And ( to vse his owne wordes ) as Christ alleadged against the Pharisees , the example of their owne children , that they might be their iudges : so will I against himself his own writing & dealing , that they ( as his children ) may be his judges . The letter is this which followeth , taken from his own originall copie . A letter written by Thomas VVhite , to Mr I. A. Minister at M. in VViltshire . Ps. 7.9.59.2.140.5 . Oh let the malice of the wicked come to an end , but guide thou the just . Deliver me from the wicked doers , and save me from the bloudy men . The proud have laid a snare for me , and spred a net with cords in my pathway , and set grennes for me . Selah . Sir , the pillars of the kingdome of darknes haue ben especially three , ignorance , falsehood , and violence . How far your self have waded with others in these , in your late dealing against vs , by sermons conference & letters , let the sequele shew . 1. For the first , you in conference at W.VV. would vndertake to prove the reading Ministery to be a true Ministery , though you refused to iustify your owne , and that by this argument . Whosoever preaches the Gospell is a true Minister , but the reading Minister preach the Gospell , Therefore a true Minister . For answer to your argumēt , I denyed the first propositiō , especially in that sence as you took preaching for any publishing of the Gospel , which you presently left without defence . But if the reading Ministery be a true Ministery , then is it the ordinance of God , and if it be the ordinance of God , then may not the Magistrate remove such a Ministery vnder any pretence without sinne . An ignorant Proctor , for an ignorant Ministery , an vnfit tyme for such a doctrine of desolation , to keep darknes still in the Land , when the Lord hath shaken his sword against it . 2. Your ignorance further appeares in the expounding of the parable you entreated on Math. 13.24.1 . In expounding ( field ) for the Church , whē as , though there by ( kingdome of heaven ) be meant the Church , yet by ( field ) must be meant the world , for the kingdome of heavē is in the ( field ) except the Church should be in the Church , or our Saviours exposition were vntrue , verse 38. where field is expounded to be the world . 2. In that you would vndertake to expoūd a dark parable not by playne places of Scripture , but contrary to the tenour of the Scriptures , and ordinance of God both in Church & common wealth , for if by ( tares ) be meant open offenders , which may not be plucked vp , then may not open offenders be cast out in the Church , nor put to death by the Magistrate . 3. You said in conference that all that preached the Gospel , Act. 8.4 . had extraordinary gifts , which you went about thus to prove . Philip. Act. 8.5 . had extraordinary gifts , therefore all the rest had . Which argument you could not then nor ever will be able to prove , the very recitall of it is sufficient answer vnto it . 4. And your insufficiency was even confessed by * one of your owne fellowes ( as I heard ) who when he heard that you were to preach on that parable , said that he marvelled that you would vndertake it being so vnfit : he would some more sufficient man would vndertake it : with many such words tending to the like effect . Thus have you shewed your self not alone ignorāt , & so acknowledged after a sort by some of your selves , but also are become an vpholder and pleader for darknes in others . But if your dealing had ben alone of ignorance your fault had not ben so great , but you have added falsehood & deceit therevnto , as may appeare : 1. In that you were not ashamed openly in the pulpit ( which you made the chaire of falsehood ) to teach that excōmunicatiō had no ground from the 18. of Math. contrary to the coherence , drift , circumstances , consequence of that scripture , & by cōference also with other Scriptures : as shal be shewed if you will vndertake the defence of your own doctrine . In that scripture is shewed a power which Christ hath given to his Church , ver . 17.20 . for the removing out of their communion , ver . 17. such as remayne vnrepentant and obstinate in their sinnes , ver . 16.17 . and therefore excommunication . To what end should this doctrine tend , if not to bereave the Church of that power which Christ hath left for the sweeping of vncleannes out of the house of God. But this shall be further shewed , from whose breasts you suckt this poisoned milk , which now you give others to drinck : if you will not leave the doctrine to the wide world without defence . 2. In that you trussed vp another false doctrine on the same Scripture , that the party offēder Mat. 18.17 . should be an heathē & publican only to the party first offēded , not to the whole Church : Whē as the whol Church hath as much cause to be offended as the party that was first offended , yea & more cause thē that party had at first to be offended , by reason of the continuance in his sinne , which the offender hath added to his former sinne . If you had vnderstood what had bene meant by ( trespasse , verse 15 ) you would not haue thus abused this Scripture : as may also be further shewed . In this point , one of your Ministers , but of greater wisdome & discretion then your self hath signifyed his contrary iudgment to you thereon ( as I have heard ) as knowing I doubt not the falsehood and vanity of your assertion thereon . Yea I dare vndertake that many of your our owne Ministers of best reformed iudgments , will be ashamed of these black drops which falls from your lipps . 3. In that you published in like sort that though open offenders did communicate with true Christians , yet were they not defiled thereby , traducing Mr Iohns : 〈◊〉 affirming the contrary . And yet when you came to the triall of it in conference between you and my self , you said your meaning was of a true Christian in the sight of God , not of a true Christian in the sight of men , as he is a member of the visible Church , and that such a Christian could not sinne or be defiled with sinne in that he was regenerate or borne of God , which was never the question betweene vs , and so a true Christian did not sinn though he should commit Idolatry , Adultery , or the like , in that sence that you tooke sinning : Yea a true Christian might as much be defiled with sinne in communicating with open offenders , as by committing adultery , for any thing you have said in that conference , which is vnder your hand . This was your miserable shifting , I feare against the light of your conscience . Yet Mr Ies. a few dayes after , in a conference betweene Mr Pow. and himself at Mr Bayl. on the same question took it in an other sense , yea in that sence , as which you said you meant not , neither could I bring you vnto it , as may appeare in that conference . Such confusion of languages doth well become the builders of Babell . 4. For that in your letter to Mr St. S.W.W.N. dated the 20. of Ian : 1603. you would vndertake , though no other would assist you , yet your self , by word , or writing , or howsoever , against whomsoever , to iustify your Ministerie , doctrine , &c. and yet by word in conferring you refused to iustify your Ministery , whē you were provoked therevnto : yea when I offred to prove it false in those particulars you mentioned , and to be separated from . I offred also to prove your doctrine false on the 18. of Mat. and 13. of Mat. but you refused . I desired that I might propose one argument concerning the question between vs , but you would deale no further , except you might put downe some proof further of that which we never doubted of : viz : that a true Christian in the sight of God did not sinne in the regenerate part as he was borne of God. Was this timorous & fearefull dealing answerable to your bombasted boastings , let others iudge . These be the doctrines of desolation which you do scatter : Let others now iudge what cause we haue to account you a false prophet , and they in miserable case that are led by such blind guides . Did you not tremble to wish in the pulpit that the Lord would stop your mouth if you spake not the truth . Your dealing hath confirmed vs , and bene a meanes ( through Gods goodnes ) to gaine others to the trueth we professe , and for your self remember seing you care not what you teach , nor how you take the name of God in vaine , that which is written , Ion. 2.8 . that they that wayt vpon lying vanities forsake their owne mercy . 3. And yet least the measure of your iniquity were not full already , you add violence & persecution to your former evill dealing . When you are not able to stand by the word you try whether you can suppresse vs by the sword . 1 Your self would not suffer Mr Pow. to make answer to you at Slaughtens . fearing least your falsehood should be discovered thereby . 2 Afterward Mr Ies. by letters intreated him not to make you answer publikly , that you might speak what you would without controlement . 3 And seing these meanes would not prevayle , your self to shew whose servant you are , with others went vp againe & againe as if much paynes had bene too little to procure a warrant to attach him , & Will. We. told Mr Pow. that Mr Aw . was the procurer of the warrant . Thus do you by falsehood & violence seek to vphold your ruinated kingdome , when truth & verity hath forsaken her . And you shew yourself in deed to be an Edomite , red with bloud , Ob. 1.10 . like the scarlet coloured beast , who hath a mouth like a Dragon . 4 Your associate Mr At. could tell me , that an other place was fitter for me , meaning the prison ▪ To whō I answered , that if I had the gift of dissembling which he had , to subscribe against my conscience as he did ( I told him then whē & wher ) I might live longe enough , & inioy Achans wedge , as himself doth without abridgement of liberty . You of all others may be ashamed to dissemble thus with the Prelates , knowing how basely you have thought & spoke of them : 5 You Mr Aw . could call vs brethren , & afterward being vrged for your dissembling , you could expound your meaning that it was in respect of creation : and so Cayn , Ismaell ; & Antichrist , be your brethren too , yea & nearer of kin then so , by persecution too . 6 Your self could say not long since , that of all sects on some conditions you could soonest joyne to vs , as being nearest the truth : & yet a little after call vs rebells : but rebellion being a high degree of treason , your self if you conceale it 24. houres will incurr the danger thereof , looke you to it . 7 You promised by writing to put downe reasons to iustify your Ministerie , and doctrine betweene vs conferred of , but we thought before how slack we should find you in performance . At your next comming to Slaughtens . I pray you not to spend an houre and half in confuting vs in proving that we never denyed , as you did before , & not to contradict your self as Mr Ies. did , disproving his owne doctrine the same tyme that he repeated it . The doctrine was that whosoever was reputed to be a Minister & taught the doctrine in the foundation sound he was a true Minister , and yet in the same place at the same time he said that a non Resident was a thief and a robber . Now I hope he will confesse that a non resident is reputed by them to be a Minister and may teach the doctrine in the foundation sound , therefore a thief and a robber may be a true Pastor , ( or els he disproved his own doctrine ) which cannot be . With grief of heart I assure you I write these things , having bene sometimes perswaded that you had more conscience , and true knowledg of God then can be perceived in this dealing . Thus haue I given you a tast of your evill dealing , the Lord give you true remorse at the sight of your sinn , or els remēber that which Mr Fox hath written of the terrible end of persecuters . If you haue any thing to say in answer , do not snatch here and there as your maner is , but directly and orderly iustify these doctrines which are laid to your charge as false . Thus as before , so still committing our cause to the iust iudge , I take my leave : this present the 25. of Mon. 2. 1603. He that desireth your good from his heart . Tho. VVhite . This letter he wrote , as is aforesaid . Since which time , being here discovered and disappointed of his expectation , he hath with Demas embraced this present world , and left the trueth of Christ : & is become a sworne enemy thereof himself , and a pleader for like fruits of darknes in others . Will he now therfore behold himself in his owne glasse , and not forget what maner a one he is , but apply to himself his owne speaches , of the pillars of darkene● , of making the pulpit the chaire of falsehood , of abusing the Scripture , of black drops falling from his lips , of miserable shifting against the light of his cons●ience , of confusion of language and building vp Babel , of bombasted boastings , of doctrines of desolation , of false Prophets & blind guides , of wayting on lying vanities & forsaking his own mercy , of seeking to vphold the Beasts ruinated kingdome , of being an Edomite , of having a mouth like a Dragon , of the gift of dissembling , of enioying Achans wedge , of base thinking & speaking of the Prelates heretofore , of being now neare a kinne to Cain , Ismael , & Antichrist , of the terrible end of persecutors , of committing our cause to the iust Iudge , &c. And how would he reply againe , if Mr A. to whō he wrote this letter , should now answer him by the words of his owne mouth out of his Libell against vs , & aske him , Are these things evill in others & good in him ? Or as the Poet speakes , Iustum non iustum non iustū iustū quod vobis libet : Or will he say as Medea in Ovid , Video meliora proboque , deteriora sequor ? But rather will he heare the Apostle , 2.1.3 . What art thou that cōdēnest another , & doest the same ? Or the Prophet , Psal. 50.16 . Why takest thou my word in thy mouth , and hatest to be reformed ? Or Christ himself , Hypocrite first cast the beame out of thine owne ey , &c. Mat. 7.5 . Or if he will heare none of these , yet let him remember & take to himself his owne allegation of Tullies words , Testimonium tuum quod in aliena re leve est , hoc contra te grave , &c. Thine owne testimony , which in another case is of small weight , this against thy self is of great moment . Now of his hatred & malice against vs & the truth ( since he left it ) what should I need to speak ? Himself hath proclaymed it to the world . And howsoever he would cloak & cover it with pretence of discharging his duty to God & his Churches , of care for others , of omitting many the vilest things , of offending chast eares , of sparing vs , &c. yet doth he therein but the more verify that saying of Salomon , Hatred may be covered by deceit : but the malice thereof shall be discovered in the congregation . Shemei himself , yea and Rabshakeh , could besides other things pretend even the name of God , when they rayled & cursed most bitterly . Wherein also what other thing hath he done in his invective against vs , but as the Iesuites and other Papists have often done against Luther , Calvine , Beza , &c. of whom they shame not to forge and publish notorious lyes & sclanders : and all to obscure the truth professed by them ? VVhose steps how this enemie of ours hath followed , let others iudge . And let himself remember his owne saying heretofore , if he will regard no others , that a man who hath run away from his Maister , wil seldome give him a good report . But thus is he the fitter servant for his Maisters the Prelates , by whose authority he pleaded here before the Magistrates that his book was printed : and vnder them belike hopeth to be sheltered in England , whither he hath now betaken himself : for what cause he knoweth best . But wheresoever and howsoever he bestow himself , let him know , God will find him out : from whom he cannot fly , nor escape his judgement . For as Enoch the seventh from Adam prophecyed , so is it in all ages to be remembred , Behold , the Lord cōmeth with his thousands of Saints , to do iudgement against all men , & to rebuke all the vngodly of them , of all the workes of vngod●ynes which they have vngodly committed , and of all the hard things which vngodly sinners have spoken against him . Iude , ver . 14.15 . For which cuase , we could for our owne parts so have left him , & born in our bosome all his reproach , without giving any answer : had we not considered that by him not onely our selves but even the faith of Christ which we professe is traduced and oppugned ; and many that are weak might thus be kept or turned away from the truth ; and Salomon saith , He that is first in his owne cause , is iust , till his neighbour come and make inquiry of him . Therefore thought we it best at this time to make the answer ensuing . VVherein as now we have followed the counsell & rule of wisdome , which saith , Answer a foole according to his foolishnes , least he be wise in his owne eyes : so for hereafter ( vnles there be great & speciall occasion to the contrarie ) we may the better follow the other counsell and rule which Wisdome in the same place teacheth , saying , Answer not a foole according to his foolishnes , least thou also be like him : And specially for this man , who hath not delite in vnderstanding , but that his heart may be discovered : whom God hath already made a spectacle to others of heady , contentious , and hostile opposition against the faith and witnesses of Iesus . Neither let him or any other of our enemies think their case the better , because of our sinnes or troubles or weak walking in the faith , whereō they do so much insist . Concerning which , my answer shall be with the words of the Prophet , Reioyce not against me , ô myne enemie : though I fall , I shall arise : whē I sit in darknes , the Lord shall be a light vnto me . I will beare the wrath of the Lord , because I have sinned against him , vntill he plead my plea , & execute iudgement for me : he will bring me forth to the light , I shall see his righteousnes . And he will look vpon myne enemie , and cover her with shame , which said vnto me , Where is the Lord thy God ? Myne eyes shall looke vpon her , now shall she be troden downe as the myre in the streetes . And in this will we rest , and wayt vpon the Lord the God of our salvation : trusting in him , that notwithstanding our vnworthines and his chastising which we have deserved , yet he will look vpon vs in mercy , and make all things worke for good vnto vs in Christ : And that thus the vttermost opposition of all our enemies ( howsoever they set them selves against vs , whether against our cause or against our persons , against our faith or our walking in it ) shall turne to our good , & to the furtherance of the truth witnessed by vs : which we have much found that adversaries of all sorts have a long time and many wayes oppugned , as they yet daily do and cease not : though all in vaine . For great is the truth , and will prevaile : and greater is he that is with vs then they all that are against vs. To him be praise and glorie for ever and ever . Amen . Esay 54 , 15.16.17 . Behold , he shall gather together , but without me : whosoever shall gather himself in thee , against thee , shall fall . Behold , I have created the smith that bloweth the coales in the fire , and him that bringeth forth an instrument for his work , and I haue created the stroyer to destroy . But all the weapons that are made against thee , shall not prosper : and every tongue that shall rise against thee in iudgement , thou shalt condemne . This is the heritage of the Lords s●rvants , and their righteousnes is of m● ▪ saith the Lord. AN INQVIRIE AND ANSVVER Of Thomas VVhite his Discovery of Brownisme , or ( as he calleth it also ) his declaration of some of the errors and abhominations daily practised & encreased among the English company of the separation remayning for the present at Amsterdam in Holland . TO any that are exercised in the word of God , or know the nature and power of sinne in themselues , or the doctrine & pledges of remissiō of sinnes by Ch●ist in his Church , or the power & vse of excōmunication for impenitent sinners , or the Churches duty vpon their repentance to receive them againe , etc. To any such ( I say ) it cannot seem strange , that in true Churches and Christians , sinnes & enormities , sundry and great , should fall out & be found . The condition of the Church of the Iewes before Christ , of the Primitive Churches after Christ , yea of the whole Church and people of God from the beginning of the world to this day , shew it plainly and certainly so to haue ben . Which work of God so disposing , and case of his Churches and the members therof so being , howsoever many haue stumbled thereat & abused it to their own destruction & deceiving of others , yet thus would God preach vnto the world and have his own people learne and lay to hart other & better things thereby . As namely , how sinfull & miserable we are in our selves ; how subtilly and continually Sathan seeketh to devoure vs ; how fast we had need alway to hold faith in Christ , and to fight the good fight thereof against all enemies of our salvation and obedience ; how needfull it is to live in the Church of Christ vnder his conduct and governmēt ; how carefull we had need be to make an end of our owne salvation with feare & trembling ; also how exceeding great the mercy of God is vnto vs in Christ his Sōne , by whom not only when we were enemies we were reconciled to God by his death , but being also reconciled are saved by his life ; and finally how infinite his power & wisedome is both in preserving his elect to salvation through the middest of so great corruption , and in bringing the wayes of the wicked vpon their own heads to their iust destruction : and all to the praise & glory of his Name . These and the like good vses may & should we make of the foresaid condition of the Church here on earth . Neyther did we ever think or professe otherwise of our selves , but that we are sinfull & prone to evill in our selues aswell as others , obteyning salvation onely by Iesus Christ. Yet may not our or any weaknes of man praejudice the truth of God. So that admitting it were with vs as this Adversarie Thomas White hath written against vs , yet ought none therefore to be turned away from the truth professed by vs , but to make other vse thereof , for their own good , as we our selues also ought . But now if the things he obiecteth , be many of them notorious lyes , divers of them purposely perverted , few of them truely related , and all of them ( as all may see ) maliciously abused against vs : how iustly shall that returne vpon his own head , which he would in ●his manner bring vpon vs ? according as it is said , He that diggeth a pit shall fall therein , and he that roleth a stone , it shall return vpon him . His mischief shall returne vpon his owne head , and his iniury shall descend vpon his owne pate . Prov. 26.27 . Psal. 7.15.16 . TO come to the Libell it self : he beginneth it with blasphemy , in the very title thereof , calling it A discovery of Brownisme . What our cause and testimony is , we haue long since published in the Confession of our faith : which this man knoweth well , & hath (a) in his book alledged the 17. Article thereof . If then he take our cause ( for which we are reviled vnder the name of Brownists ) to be errour , why did he not confute it ? If it be the truth , why doth he thus blaspheme it ? But so to be reproached , hath ben * the case of the Apostles and Christians of old . And at this day are the Protestants thus dealt with by the Papists , who blaspheme the truth vnder the name of Zuinglianisme , Lutheranisme , Calvinisme , &c. And well it fitteth the Priests of England , that as they partake with the Papists in so many other things , they should also follow their steps in blaspheming the truth and witnesses thereof . That which he annexeth , calling his book also A declaration of some of the erros and abhominations among vs , as it enlargeth the title of his Book , so it increaseth the wicke●nes of his sinne . For may not the Reader hereby gather , that he would perswade , eyther that we hold and haue many other errours & abhominations besides them that here he imputeth vnto vs , or that all our cause and testimony is nothing els but error and abhomination ? As also when he saith , the errors and abhominations be dayly practised & encreased : And that not onely in some particular persons , but even among the company of the separation , ( and as he speaketh in his Preface ) in that congregation wherein he would give his instance of prophanenes and hypocrisie . This congregation he nameth to be the English company of the separation remayning for the present at Amsterdam . Where the Reader is to know , that we who by some are termed Brownists ( of a mans name who heretofore witnessed this cause ) are by others called the company of the separatiō , because we do separate frō the Prelacy , Pri●sthood , worship & Confusion of the Church of England as being Antichristian , & do also practise the ordinance of Christ which he hath given for the government ministery worship and order of his Church . THis for the Title . Like therevnto is his Treatise also . Where for his generall accusations of debate , malice , adulteryes , cousonages , and other enormities , &c. this may serue in generall to be answered : 1. If he meane of some particular persons among vs , falling into such sinnes , it hath ben and is the case of all the Churches of Christ vpon earth , as may be seen in those of Corinth , Galatia , Ephesus , &c. And what need or vse els should there be of the rules & power given by Christ to his Church for casting out obstinate sinners , and receiving the rep●ntant in againe ? But if he meane of the body of the Church , as if we approved or reteyned such being cōvinced & vnrepentant , himself knoweth it is a malicious sclander , and his own objections ( afterward in his book ) of sundry persons whom for their sinnes and obstinacy therein we have cast out from among vs , may shew it also to others so to be . We are carefull ( he hath seen it himself ) that such be not reteyned or allowed among vs. And we find that even our carefulnes herein is abused against vs : because when any of vs are knowen to haue fallen into sinne and are dealt with according as the case requireth , whether they repent & so remayne in the Church , or whether they persist in their evill and so are cut of , it is still objected against vs , and we are published to abound with such sinnes & en●rmities . Thus might the best Churches that ever w●re in the world be traduced : as hereafter there is further occasion to shew in some particulars . 2. For our selues ( as I said before ) we confesse , and professe it also , that we are subiect to sinne and infirmity , as other men : looking for salvation , not by our own righteousnes which is of the Law , but onely by the righteousnes which is of God , through the faith of Christ. Yet , notwithstanding all the sinnes and vnworthynes of vs , let this still be held firme ( at least till vve be soundly confuted ) that our cause is the truth of the Gospell of Christ , witnessed against the errors of the defection of Antichrist . 3. The accusations made against vs , are to be considered with their proofs : which will afterward come to be seen . In the meane time , let it be observed , whether if some would set themselues to collect particular instāces of debate , malice , adulteries , cousonages , & such other like enormities , daily cōmitted by many in the Church wherevnto this man is now revolted , though they wrote no vntrueths ( as he doth many ) but noted onely the truth of things as they are indeed , neyther took the space of thirteen or fourteen yeares ( as he hath done ) but of any one yeare among them , how might they fill , I will not say a few sheeds of paper , but even many volumes of books therewith ? And if T. White were asked according to his own words here , whether he had not himself partaken with their abominatiōs & vnfruitfull works of darknes : and whether he would give warning to others of their leaders evill dealing , whereby their people are devoured : would he not think you verify his own other sayings here , shewing himself to be far from repentance , seeking to cover , hide , cloake , reproach and revile , vsing falsehood , shiftings , contrarieties , etc. All which are knowen to be so true and comon both in himself and the Church whereto he is returned as I need not write thereof at all : their estate & dealing proclayme it to all that h●ue eares to heare and hearts to regard it . Our banishment & poverty ( whereof he speaketh ) encreaseth his & their sinne against vs yet much the more . For are not they the persons that bring these afflictions vpon vs ? and is it not onely because we witnesse the truth of our Lord Iesus Christ , against the falsehood of Antichrist yet remayning among them , in the ministery worship order & government of their Church ? But let them know that he which judgeth iustly the sonnes of men , will remember his banished , and execute justice and judgment to all that are oppressed . For the poore shall not alway be forgotten , nor the hope of the afflicted perish for ever . And in the meane tyme , even in the middest of all our afflictions , are we comforted in the Lord , for whose sake we endure them : & great benefit do we further reap by them , not only for our own good many other wayes , but in this in particular , that these our troubles are a speciall meanes to keep discover and remove from among vs a number of hypocrites , such as this T. White , who ( if it were not for our poverty and banishment ) would flock faster vnto vs and lurk longer among vs , vnder a painted colour of holynes , making show as if they would depart from iniquity & call vpon the Name of the Lord ( and who more then they ? ) when in deed their harts be fraight full of the leaven of hypocrisy contention maliciousnes and all maner of iniquity : which in such case and estate of things doth oftentimes both sooner and more appeare , then otherwise it may be ever would . The calumniation of condemning all other Churches and men , we haue often answered and cleared heretofore , & this also knowen to himself . Yet thus he writeth , that in this as in the rest of his dealing all might see , how it is himself that runneth into fearfull extremities , and reproacheth with a virul●nt and venemous tounge . For our selves , besides our reverend estimation of other Churches and good perswasion of other men , so often published to the world , we haue also shewed it in our walking towards them , and namely in our dealing with the Dutch ●nd French Churches of this citie as with true Churches . Which had we not so esteemed of them , we neither could nor would so haue done and dealt with them , as we haue . THe letter he speaketh of , I haue still with me . His falsehood and other bad dealing therein , I will here omit , save onely about the doctrines by him layd vpon vs. 1. The first is that we held it lawfull for a man to live with her that is not his wife , rather then to reveale himself . This he saith : but how doth he proue it so to be held by vs ? If malice had not possessed him , this error had never ben imputed to vs eyther as held by the Church or partaken in by the Elders . Sometimes in deed we haue had speach among vs of the vnlawfulnes ( as we were perswaded ) for man and wife to live together after adultery cōmitted ; & about the band of wedlock being broken thereby ; & whether that in the case of adultery vnknowen to others , the offenders were to reveale themselves , or not . About which latter points when we shewed our judgment & reasons , this Tho. White ( who then was present ) did much vrge , that a man who knew such a crime by himself must reveale it , or els live in sinne , & with one that was not his lawfull wife . Wherevpon some of vs reasoned with him about it , holding that a man should not so reveale himself . The end was , that we differed in judgem●nt about these things , & having had speach of them but by occasion , so rested for the present . Will he now therefore make collections and frame positions of his owne or others spe●ch●s , and say ( as in his letter ) that they are false doctrines that ly vpon the Church , or ( as here in his Libell ) that they are blasphemous doctrines of the Church ? What good dealing this is , let the Reader judge . And concerning the question aforesaid , whereas some of vs were thus minded about it , that a man having cōmitted adultery ( which is vnknowē to others ) is not bound by the word of God to reveale himself , but vnfeynedly to repent thereof : and that in such case he may notwithstanding lawfully continue with his wife : Although I be not here in particular to handle this point : yet I will now propound these few things to be considered about it . As namely , what Scriptures teach a man so to accuse ●imself ; whether it be not vnnaturall for a man so to do ; whether in Israell the womā spoken of Numb . 5.12.13 . were bound to reveale her adultery ( being vnknowen ) vntill or vnlesse her husband were moved with the spirit of ielousy , as the Law there is given ? And , whe●her ●●w ●en should of themselves reveale such their case to the Magistrates , who haue power to put them to death for it ? By what Law of God they are bound therevnto ? And whether els they cannot haue true rpentance but deny the prophecy of Christ & erre fundamentally , as here he would perswade ? 2. The second is , That there are qualities in God not essentiall , & that love in God is not of his being , but that the self same love that is in God , that is also in vs. Himself knoweth and hath bene here convinced of the notable falsehood hereof , yet shameth not thus to publish it against vs. And that now the Reader may know how the matter arose , I will briefly shew it . We haue in our Church * the vse of the exercise of Prophecy spoken of in 1 Cor. 14. chap. Rom. 12.6 . 1 Thes. 5.20 . In which , some of the brethren such as for gifts are best able ( though not in office of Ministery ) deliver from some portion of Scripture , doctrine , exhortation , comfort ; sometimes two at a tyme , sometymes mo : Then also if there be occasion , vpon the Scripture treated of , are questions propounded and answers made accordingly : And the whole action moderated by some of the officers and Overseers of the Church . In this exercise , the first Epistle of Iohn being treated of , vpon these words , He that loveth not , knoweth not God : for God is love : the poynt aforesaid was by way of qu●stiō spoken of . And about it there was reasoning by two or three of the brethren & this White himself , with obiections and answers diversly . Wherevpon this Doeg , by some of those br●threns reasoning & the * opinion of one of them about this matter , took the occasion thus to reproach vs : which first he did more privately , and now hath done it publikely to the world . Wherein his evill dealing is the more notorious , because himself being then present , knoweth how both at the same tyme b the moderation thereof by one of the Elders was according to t●e truth , disproving the error aforsaid which he would impute vnto vs ; and afterward ( he carying himself verie yll about it & other things ) that the matter was againe heard & examined in the publick congregation , where to his face he was convinced to be a false accuser therein . Besides he knoweth the Confession of our faith long since published , which alone doth so fully cleare vs in it , as very shame of men , if no feare of God , might haue restrayned his lying lippes , and kept him from blaspheming vs with so black a mouth . 3. A third thing there was , ●nd that obiected by him publickly in the Church , and noted also in his letter , as a false doctrine lying vpon the Church : Namely , that vvhen a matter is in the third place to be brought to the Church by the rule of Christ , Mat. 18.15.16.17 . our order being that the ●lders first have knowledg thereof given them by the parties themselues , then that the case being such as is to come to the Church , it be publickly propounded and handled by them , as in respect of their office apperteyneth vnto them , being the governors and overseers of the Church : This he blamed then as an error & false doctrine , contrary to Christs rule , Mat. 18. But here now he concealeth it . And good cause why . For when he was called vpō for his proof hereof in the publick Congregatiō where he had made the accusation : he was glad to answer , that he vvas not provided : And this also after a weeks respite to consider of it . Wherevpon he was rebuked as hasty to accuse and slow to prove , whereas wisedome would haue taught him , first to haue bene provided of proof before he had set himself to accuse as he did . But if now he think it to be no error in vs , and therefore speakes not of it , he might even by this haue learned to set a watch before his mouth , at least not to haue barked rgainst vs in so vile a maner as he hath done . Or if he still think that we erre therein , contrary to Christs rule , Mat. 18. ( as he obiected heretofore ) why hath he not here noted it downe with the other aforesaid ? Is it because that ordinance of Christ overthroweth the Prelacy and government of the Church of England ( whither he is now revolted ) it being such as they neyther do neyther can in their constitution obserue that rule at all ? But how then can he approue them for a true Church in such estate , and how will he answer the reason alledged by vs against thē c heretofore in this respect ? which is this , Every true visible Church of Christ hath Christs power spoken of Mat. 18 ▪ 17.18 . to cast out ●●●unate sinners from among them : But the Ecclesiasticall assemblyes of England haue not the power of Christ there spoken of , to cast out obstinate sinners from among them : Therefore the Ecclesiasticall assemblies of England cannot ( in their constitution ) be accounted true visible Churches of Christ. And hitherto of his false & blasph●mous doctrines objected against vs in his letter . Which in his Libell he saith I promised to ansvver & performed it not . Yet in the letter it self he writeth that * I said , I had spoken vnto him both privately & publickly , & now would not further haue to do vvith him . And concerning his letter , my answer was to this effect ( as I remember ) sent him by I.L. one of his own company , besides my speach vnto himself : That the contents of his letter vvere partly private , partly publick : that for the private , I required proof ; and for the publick , I vvould not deale privaely . Wishing also the said I.L. to deale with him for some reports ( ascribed to him in the letter ) concerning me which he denyed , and to end it between themselves who were of one company together : And as I should heare thereof , so I should consider what to do for the rest . This let him aske of I.L. his own companion : and let himself now look vnto it who it is that falsifyeth . For not ansvvering his letter by vvriting , I had good reason : as may appeare by that which before is alledged . And Wisdome teacheth , there be persons who are not to be answered according to their foolishnes , and times also when to speak and when to be silent : Pro. 26.4 . Eccles. 3.7 . vvith 2 King. 18.36 . The dumbe Ministers spoken of d in the place here cited by him , he hath now consorted himself withall , being returned to his old vomit , and become as dumbe as any of them for defending the truth against the aduersaries thereof : yet opening his mouth above all his fellowes in blaspheming the truth and witnesses of it . Wherein the case of the worst dumbe dog in England is ten thousand fold better then his : And happy it had ben for him , if his toung had cleaved to the roof of his mouth , and his hand never vsed pen , more then theirs : whereas now his sin is vnspeakably greater & his estate infinitely more miserable . But leaving him to the iudgmēt of God , I will proceed to the other particulars of his book : desiring the Reader , for all his pretence of due proof of his charges , to remember that saying of Salomon , He that is first in his ovvn cause is iust : then cometh his neighbour , and maketh inquir● of him . Prov. 18.17 . Of the first head of Th : White his Treatise . THat which followeth in his Treatise , himself reduceth to fower heads . In which order I will also handle them . The first is , that he saith vve haue betrayed our ovvn cause in vvriting . And to prove it , he alledgeth that I erre in the description of a true visible Church , and thereby overthrovv the mayn drift of my vvritings . I answer : 1. His reason followes not . For may not I or any other of vs erre in some thing ▪ & yet our generall cause not be betrayed ? Agayne , did not Nathan the Prophet erre about the building of the Temple , and Peter the Apostle about the Gentiles calling and comunion ? Could now an Edomite or Pharisee have iustly gathered , that they had therefore betrayed the cause of Israel or of the Christians witnessed by them against the adversaries ? To come nearer to our owne times , it is well knowen that Mr. Calvine , Luther , Beza , Fulk , Powell , Sutcliff , &c. writing against the Papists Anabaptists and the like , haue in sundrie things erred , even concerning the very pointes of the difference between them : Shall vve say therefore that they have betrayed the cause handled betvveen them and their aduersaries ? and overthrovven the mayne drift of their ovvn vvritings ? Not to speak of the Martyrs put to death by the Papists , how both many of them , and in many things , have erred , even concerning the causes controverted in their tymes . Should we therefore conclude that they betrayed their own cause ? Or that they did not witnesse the truth notwithstanding faithfully even vnto death ? 2. Our cause towching the Church of England , is , that the estate thereof is such in their Prelacy , Priesthood , worship , confusion , &c. as it is not lawfull by the word of God for any to ioyne or continue with them in such estate : And moreover , that it is the duty of all Christians , to receive and keep the faith and ordinances of Christ , vvherein the Primitive Churches vvere planted by the Apostles . To discusse and make these things more playne , I reduced our whole cause to seaven questions , and so propounded them : viz , 1. Whether the Lord Iesus Christ have by his last testament given vnto and set in his Church sufficient ordinary Offices , with their Callings , Workes , & Maintenance , for the administration of his holy things , and for the sufficient ordinary instruction , guidance , and service of his Church to the end of the world , or no ? 2. Whether the Offices of Pastors , Teachers , Elders , , Deacons , and Helpers , be those Offices appointed by Christ in his Testament , as aforesaid . Or whether the present ecclesiasticall Offices of Archbishops , Lordbishops , Suffragans , Deanes , Prebendaries , Canons , Petticanons , Priests , Deacons , Archdeacons , Doctors of divinitie , Bachelers of divinity , Chapleins or housepriests , Commissaries , Officialls , Proctors , Apparitors , Parsons , Vicars , Curates , Vagrant or Mercenary preachers , Church-wardens , Sidemen , Clerkes , Sextins , and the rest now had in the Cathedrall and Parishionall assemblies , be those Offices appointed by Christ in his Testament as is aforesaid , or no ? 3. Whether the Calling and entrance into these Ecclesiasticall offices aforesaid , their Administration , and Maintenāce now had and reteyned in England , be the manner of calling administration & maintenance which Christ hath appointed for the offices of his Church above named , or no ? 4. Whether every true visible Church of Christ be not a company of people called and separated out from the world & the false worship and wayes thereof by the word of God , & ioyned togeather in fellowship of the Gospell , by voluntary professiō of the faith and obedience of Christ ? And whether the Ecclesiasticall Assemblies of the Land be such , or no ? 5 Whether the Sacraments ( being seales of righteousnes which is by faith ) may be administred to any other but to the faithfull and their seed , or in any other ministery & manner then is appointed by Iesus Christ the Apostle and high Priest of our profession ? And whether they be not otherwise administred in the Cathedrall & parishionall Assemblies of England at this day ? 6. Whether the Book of Common prayer with the Feasts , Fasts , Holy dayes , stinted prayers , and Leiturgy prescribed therein , and vsed in these Assemblies , be the true worship of God commaunded in his word , or the devise and invention of man , for Gods worship and service . 7. Whether all people and Churches ( without exceptiō ) be not bound in Religion , only to receive & submit vnto that Ministery , worship , and order , which Christ as Lord and King hath given and appointed to his Church ? Or whether any may receive or ioyne vnto another devised by man , for the service of God ? And consequently , whether they which ioine to the present ecclesiasticall Ministery , worship , and order of the Cathedrall and parishionall Assemblies , can be assured by the word of God that they ioyne to the former ordeined by Christ , and not to the latter devised by man , even the man of sinne , for the worship and service of God ? Now reducing our cause to these heads , if it were so that I erred in one of them , is therefore our cause betrayed ? Or should my particular error , be imputed to the whole Church , or reputed the betraying of our generall cause ? Is there not difference to be put between erring through ignorance ( if this were an errour ) and betraying with knowledge ? Or if this maner of reasoning which he vseth might be admitted , who can deny but the Protestants of England , and of all sorts , have an hundred and an hundred tymes betrayed their own cause , and overthrovven the very drift of their owne writings ? And if they think it not of weight against them for their multitude of knowen errours , with what face can it be vrged against vs for one supposed errour ? 3. For the description it self which was given of a visible Church , I still hold it to be good . It was thus , A true visible Church of Christ is a company of faithfull people , by the word of God called out from the vvorld and the false vvayes thereof , gathered together in fellovvship of the Gospell , by a voluntary profession of the faith and obedience of Christ. This is the description : which he would proue to be false , partly by gathering my meaning thereof in other places of that & other books , partly and particularly by my judgment concerning the Israelites in Egypt , spoken of in the Ans. to M● Ia. pag. 47. Where before I answer him , let me advertise the Reader that if there be any weight in this exception , it was found out , not by Th. White ( as by his book might be supposed ) but by some of the Ministers in VViltshire , specially by one Mr Io. Ie. and other his fellowes there , who have bestowed much labour in reading our writings , vvhether for love to the truth , or that they might finde somewhat thereby the more to cavill against it , let their walking and dealing shew . VVhose disciple novv this White is become , having heretofore stood as opposite against them , as white is to black . Now therfore to answer them all vnder one , I will write somewhat touching this matter : referring the further handling of it ( if there be need ) till some other adversaries , with whom we ha●● to deale concerning it and the other heads of our cause , give further occasion . Two things ( as I said ) about this description are specially noted and vrged : the first about the meaning ; the other about my vvriting of the Israelites in Egypt . For the first , the meaning is plaine by the words themselues , and by the drift of that and all other of our boo●s , as may appeare not onely by the places here cited by him , but by many other compared together , and particularly by an expresse declaration annexed vnto it in our Apologie against the Oxf : Doct. pag. 36.44.45 . Yet now againe to explane and proue the truth of that description , I will here treat a litle more thereof . To esteem and describe aright a true visible Church , we must look especially to two things , 1. the calling of Christ ; 2. the covenant and cōmunion of the Church : To Christ his calling , like as the Apostles every where describe the Churches according to it : As namely , the Churches of Ephesus , Corinth , Rome &c. For which see these Scriptures , Rom. 1.5.6.7 . 1 Cor. 1.2.9.24 . Gal. 1.6 . & 5.8.13 . Ephe. 1.1 . with 4.1.4 . Col. 3.15 . 1 Thes. 2.12 . & 5.24 . 2 Thes. 1.11 . & 2.14 . Heb. 3.1 . 1 Pet. 1.15 . & 2.9.21 . 2 Pet. 1.1.3 . Iude , ver . 1. Now it cānot be denyed but Christs calling of his Churches & people , is vnto the whole faith of the Gospell & willing obedience thereof , & f●ō all evill & iniquity that is any way repugnant therevnto , & therefore frō the false worship & wayes of the vvorld whatsoever they be or wheresoever . And herevpon did the Apostles reproue the Churches still when they fell into any sinne eyther against the first or second Table , as not walking worthy the holy calling whervnto they were called in Christ ; and required of them also obedience to all the cōmaundements & ordinances of Christ f●ō tyme to tyme. Therefore should White and his teachers have better observed that clause of the description aforesaid , by the vvord of God called out etc. So might they have perceived ( if they had love to the truth ) both that the description is good ; and that the abberrations of true Chu●ches are so far from proving it any way false , as they do in deed approue the truth of it : in asmuch as the verie being of a Church by the calling of Christ requireth of them to walk otherwise . Another thing that we are to look vnto , yet also depending vpon the former , is the Churches covenant and cōmunion . This covenant is to be considered , as made by them vnto the Lord , and one with another , to walk together in the truth of the Gospell , in all the cōmaundements and ordinances of the Lord : And therefore to forsake and avoid whatsoever is there against . As may appeare by these Scriptures , Exod. 19.3 — 8. 2 King. 23.2.3 . Esa. 2.2.3 . & 14.1 . and 44.5 . Ier. 50.4.5 . Act. 2.41.42.47 . and 11.21.24 . Rom. 12.5 . 2 Cor. 9.13 . Ephes. 4.4.5.6 . Phil. 1.1.5 . Therefore also , the description aforesaid is good . And so might the adversaries haue perceived , if they had well observed that other clause therein , of being gathered and ioyned together in fellowship of the Gospell &c. And what els is it that giveth the being to a true visible Church , but the calling of Christ , & the Churches covenant according thervnto ? Wherevpon in a true Church may and ought these things following alway to be observed : 1. That it hath Christ alone for the Mediatour , that is , for the Prophet , Priest , and King thereof . 2. That it is to be accounted the spouse and body of Christ , the househould citie and kingdome of God , the ground and pillar o truth , a Church of Saints , &c. 3. That the promises and pledges of Gods covenant presence & blessing do appertayne vnto them in that estate . 4. That it apperteyneth to Christ , to remove his Candlestick & take away his kingdome from a Church when and as he pleaseth . 5. That every true visible Church hath authority and power frō Christ to receive in members willingly professing the same faith with them , & to cast out obstinate offenders from among them . 6. That the want or transgression of Christs ordinances doth not simply or presently disanull them from being a true Church . For example , When a people are so called and covenanted as aforesaid , though yet they have none in office amōg thē ( eyther Pastors , Teachers , Elders etc. ) they are notwithstanding a true visible Church . And by their calling and covenant they have power in Christ , as he giveth them fit men and meanes , to chuse and enjoy these , as any other of his ordinances . Likewise also , when any of the Church yea or the whole do transgresse , eyther in some thing which yet they have not seen , or whereinto now they are fallen , they are notwithstanding a true visible Church . And by their calling and covenant they have power in Christ to redresse them . Which when vpon knowledg they shall refuse , and ●o continue , then are they to be esteemed according as their case shall require . So then , to judge rightly of a true Church , we must look ( as the Apostles did ) at their calling and cōmunion in the Gospell . Which being observed , it wil be easy to put difference between the errours , and the constitution of true Churches : as Christ and his Apostles did , in the Churches of Asia , Achaia , Galatia , &c. to reprove them for the one , and yet to approue them as true Churches for the other . And this also vntill Christ himself remove his candlestick and take away his kingdome from among them : which is to be left vnto him , to do when & as it pleaseth him . And this also might serue for answer to the exception drawen from my writing , concerning the Israelites in Egypt : who sinned with Idols , and yet were Gods people . But it being so vrged by divers as it is , I will note a few things more concerning it in particular . The objection is made thus , If they cōmitted Idolatry vvith the Idols of Egypt , hovv were they then a company of faithfull people separated from all false vvayes ? I answer , By the Lords former calling of them to the obedience of himself , who was by covenant the Lord their God , and they his people . Gen. 12. & 17. & 46. vvith Exod. 2.23.24.25 . & 3.7 8.15.16 . Numb . 20.16 . Deut. 26.7 . Which also is laid as the ground of the admonition , for calling of them from that Idolatry spoken of , Ezech. 20.7 . And may not a people so separated as aforesaid , fall into this sinne of Idolatry , aswell as into other sinnes ? See the case of Israel afterward againe , Exod. 32. Where Moses in his prayer to God , calleth Israell the Lords people , even then when they had cōmitted such Idolatry , as the Lord would presently have consumed thē for it . Exod. 32.1.10.11 . And of Israell againe , see what is recorded , Iudg. 2. &c. And likewise of the Church of Rome , which at first was a true Church separated from all false wayes , yet fell into this sinne , and cōtinueth therein . Rom. 1.6.7.8 . & 16.19 . vvith Rev. ● . & 13. and 14. & 17. chap. But this was the generall estate of the Israelites at that tyme. What then ? So may it fall out with a true Church : as now hath ben shewed : and so we are taught , Lev. 4.13.14 . Yet here also might be demaunded , whether he meane it to be so generall , as including all of Israel therein , specially considering what is written of some in those tymes , Ex. 1. & 2. & 6 . 20-27 . Numb . 1. vvith Heb. 11.23 . &c. And , whether this Idolatry were publike , or private , like as that spoken of , Ezech. 8 , 12. Zeph. 1.1.4.5 . But howsoever , their sinne vvas also of obstinacy : for they vvere admonished from the Lord , & yet they rebelled against him , as the Scripture sheweth , Ezech. 20.7.8 . And even the same Scripture sheweth also , that for this cause they deserved themselves & God thought to haue powred out his indignation vpon them : but stayed it , in respect of his ovvn Name ( which is called vpō*his Churches & people ) , & not because of their estate , as now it was , Ezec. 20.7.8.9 . And how doth this then overthrow , & not rather cōfirme , the des●ription aforesaid ? Or must we not alway desribe & esteem a Church by the conditiō thereof according to the revealed word of God : & yet leave vnto the Lord to esteem & deale therewith notwithstanding as in any respect seemeth good vnto himself ? Or when God saith , he is the Lord their God , and calleth them his sonne and first borne , whom he might in respect of their own estate cast of , can we not so esteem of them , but we must therevpon conclude , that in the description of a true visible Church , Idolatrie and all false wayes are not to be excluded ? or ( to speak of the questions controverted at this day ) that Rome , in all her Idolatries , is notwithstanding still to be reputed the spouse of Christ , and not to be rejected as an harlot ? and so likewise all the Churches that be her daughters in that estate ? Againe , what if it were ( as * some think ) that Israell first rebelling , and so provoking God to wrath , as is aforesaid , did afterward through the affliction which by Pharaoh was encreased vpon them , turne into their own hart , and crie vnto the Lord God of their fathers ( as we read , Exod. 2. and 3. Numb . 20.16 . Deut. 26.7 . ) ? should we not then put difference between obstinacy still persisted in , & that which is afterward repented of & amended ? Not to speak of the Israelites estate in Egypt , how in their kindred and families the Church consisted and was governed , and how then they had not the word written ; ●eyther of their estate afterward in the wildernes , how God did never so punish thē for any of their transgressions ( though of the same nature ) before his Law given vnto them , as he did after : as may be observed in the history : So teaching all ages succeeding , to take speciall heed to his written word , & according to it to esteem & walk in all things . Wherefore to end this point , thus I think , that for Israel & all other people and Churches , we are bound alwayes so to esteem and walk , as by the word of God we have direction and vvarrant from him , and neyther to judge nor , vvalk othervvise : And as Christ giveth to all true Churches their being , so to leave vnto him to take it away when and as he pleaseth . And for this case of Israel in particular , let me further aske , whether such of the Israelites as should now have left that Idolatry spoken of , ought not also to have left cōmunion therein with the rest so transgressing : and yet to have left them to the Lord to esteem and deale with them as in any respect should seem good vnto himself ? For that which he objecteth next out of the Preface to the last answ . to Mr Ia. sect . 6. it is concerning Churches wilfully persisting in errour and disobedience of the trueth and voice of Christ ; and shewed by the example of the Churches of the Iewes 〈…〉 ●●●son objected about them by D.B. For which I refer the Reader to that Preface & sectiō , together with that which is said in the answer to the 4. section of the same Preface : and more particularly , to that which I haue written about this poynt in the booke it self , pag. 161.195.196 . & in the answer to Mr A.H. pag. 61.62 . Where the Reader shall fynd what I haue written , and what my judgment is , concerning this matter : namely , that all good and lawfull meanes being first vsed towards true Churches fallen into sinne , if they amend not ▪ but wilfully persist therein the Lord hath threatned to remove the candlestick out of his place , and to take his kingdome frō amōg the : requiring also of such as are willing to obey the truth & voice of Christ , now to save themselves from such a froward generation , & to walk in obedience of his faith & commaundements . Rev. 2.5 . Mat. 21.42.43 . Esa. 8.12 — 16. Act. 2.40.41.42 . & 13.46.51 . & 18.5.6 . & 19.8.9 . And according to this would I be vnderstood , wheresoever I speak concerning this argument . For the Iewes in Egypt rebelling after admonition , besides the difference to be put between obstinacy persisted in , and that which is repented of ( which is thought to haue bene their estate ) I have here before shewed how we are to discerne , between their estate in respect of their owne desert , and the Lords mercy vnto them for his Name● sake notwithstanding . Which diversity of respect being now revealed vnto vs in the word of God concerning them , we are therin to rest , and so to speak and esteem of their estate as the Scriptures teach vs. Ezech. 20.7.8.9 . with Exod. 4.22 . and 3.10.18 . & 8 , 22. and 12. chap and 15.16 . Hos. 11.1 . For the Iewes in Christs time and after his death , what I think and my reasons thereof , the Reader may find also in the Treatise aforesaid : both in the Preface , sect . 4. & 5. and in the book it self , pag. 161.195 . For that he objecteth here , about their estate after admonition , two things are to be obserued : the one concerning that people ; the other concerning their admonition . For the first , touching the people , God had chosen that nation out of all the nations of the earth to be his ; he had done great & wonderous things for them ; he had given them his word and statutes ; he had promised that of them and to them he would send the Messiah ; him they expected ; for refusall of him they were to be cut of , and the Gentiles to be graffed in ▪ many were the cities and Synagogues of them ; to to Ierusalem the males came but thrice a yeare , &c. And for the second , towching admonition , God would haue them fully taught admonished and convinced that the Messiah was now come , & that Iesus was he : therefore was Iohn Baptist appointed to shew him vnto them , and to baptise in his name ; therefore did Christ send his disciples into their cities to preach & testifie it vnto them ▪ therfore also did Christ himself every where among them teach & confirme it by his doctrine and miracles : and being the true Passeover shadowed out by all their types , was put to death at their feast of Passeover , & rose againe the third day acco●●ing ●o the sc●iptu●es ; to accomplish the promises made vnto the Fathers , and to leave ●he Iewes without all colour o● 〈…〉 ●●lief and obstinacy they should be cut off . These things and the like noted of them in the Scripture , are to be observed of vs , that we may aright esteem of their estate , and of the Lords account of them and dealing with them . Yea the Scriptures here cited by himself shew this very thing , how the Lord did not at first cut of that people , but after he had vsed sundry meanes vnto them , and that also many tymes . Luk. 7.30.31 , &c. Mat. 23.37.38 . And the same is playnely declared , Mar. 21.33 — 43. and throughout the history of the Evangelists and Actes of the Apostles . Besides for admonition also obserue , how God requireth that a particular man for a private ●●nne be admonished in the 〈◊〉 secōd and third place , before he be cast out , Mat. 18.15.16.17 . And in rejecting an heretick , that it be done after the first and second admonition , Tit. 3.10 . Also in the Lord his owne dealing with the particular Churches of the Gentiles , that he gave them space to repēt , after the admonitions given vnto them , before he would remoue the candlestick out of his place , Rev. 2.4.5.16.21 . & 3.3.16.18.20.22 . And what then should let , that we should not likewise obeserve Gods dealing with the Iewes at that tyme , and accordingly esteem of their estate ? Concerning whom , note also , when now they had despised all the former meanes and crucified Iesus , then the Apostles testifying vnto them that he was the Christ , did first at Ierusalem & after wheresoever they came and found the disobedient , teach all to separate and save themselves from such a froward generation . Act. 2.14 — 40. & 13.14 — 51. & 18.5.6 . & 19.8.9 . & 28.25.26.27 . Thus haue I touching this point shewed my mynd : wherein if I erre , let it be shewed by the word of God. And though in some things I differ in judgment from Mr H Barrow ( that faithfull Martyr of Christ ) yet doth it not prejudice the truth testified by both of vs , against the Antichristian estate of the Church of England . This themselues may ob●erue in thei● owne writers against the Papists : in whom it were endles to recount the differences found amōg thē , & frivolous to pretend thereby approbatiō of the Romish Church in their estate . We all here know but in part : and who is he that erreth in nothing ? If then in this I were mistaken , haue I therfore betrayed our cause , or overthrowen the mayne drift of my writings ? Nay if this be all the errour in my writings that with all his searching he cā fynd , I shall rather think our cause to be so approved and my drift atteyned therein , for the truth of Christ against the present estate of their Church , as they are not able eyther to defend themselues or convince vs by the word of God , and therefore now set themselues to search snatch and cavill at something for objection against vs. Which also if they fynd , and it be graunte● them , albeit our defence therein were the weaker , yet were theyr cause therefore never a whit the better . To conclude this poynt , besides personall abuse of divers ( of which 〈…〉 where he hath it agayne ) he objecteth against me , that I condemne the Dutch and French Churches , for despising our admonition &c. But in what writing of ●●nne hath he found this , or in what words haue I spoken it to any , or in what dealing towards them haue I shewed it ? Where is the due proof of his charges , which ere while he told vs of ? How reverendly we think of these Churches , we haue often shewed and published heretofore ; which I need not here repeat . And what dealing hath passed between vs and the Elders of the Dutch and French Churches of this City , I shall haue occasion hereafter to shew more particularly : To which place I 〈◊〉 it ▪ Now onely let the Reader here consider how truely and fitly his shutting vp of this point may be applyed to himself : who heretofore hath held and witnessed the same testimony with vs against the Church of England , and corruptions of these Churches here : but now wavereth or rather in deed is revolted in both , as the world seeth , and his walking sheweth : He that wavereth in his owne testimony , ●ow shall his witnes ●e received ? But thus is that verifyed in him which the wise man speaketh , The ●vill man is snared by the wickednes of his own lippes . Of the second head of Th● White his Treatise . HItherto of the first ●ead of his 〈…〉 , ●hat he saith we cut of from being true Curches in our account , all the Churches of Christ that ever have ben since the Apostles dayes , or now are , y●● and our selue● also , His proof of all this , he would fetch , partly from the description aforesaid , partly from a 〈◊〉 Treatise entituled , A true description out of the word of God , of the visible Church . His instances are three , 1. of the Chruches that haue ben since the Apostles dayes ; 2. of the Churches that now are ; 3. & of our selues . Touching which ( omitting that I haue answered before to his former exception , which may here agayn be remembred , though I repeat it not ) let the Reader now first obserue and marke it well , how he saith , the Churches that haue ben since the Apostles dayes , and not , the Churches that were in their dayes . Beli●● 〈…〉 that th● 〈…〉 said cutteth not them of : And if not them , then not any other at all . For that which made them to be true visible Churches , doth and must make all other so to be , to the end of the world , namely , the calling of Christ and their mutuall covenant and communion in his Gospell : as we haue shewed before out of the Scriptures . Wherevpon I reason thus : If the description aforesaid cut not of the Primitive Churches planted by the Apostles , from being true visible Churches of Christ ; then doth it not cut of any other which since that tyme haue bene , are , or shal be to the end of the world : But the former is true : Therefore the latter . The Proposition is vndenyable , from the Scriptures and demonstration aforesaid . It is one and the same thing that giveth being to all true visible Churches of Chr●●t . That which gave being to the Churches of Ierusalem , Antioch , Rome &c. gaue also being to the Churches of Galatia , Corinth , Ephesus , &c. notwithstanding the corruptions they fell into . And that which then gave being to them , giveth being to all that haue ben since , or ever shal be . The Church is the body of Christ , and every one members for their part ; He is th● 〈◊〉 ●f the body , & from him doth all the life & power thereof p●oceed : He is not devided . The Assumption is as certa●ne , 〈◊〉 will appear● , in that the Primitive Churches planted by the Apostles , were companies of faithfull people , by the word of God called out and separated from the world and the false vvayes thereof , gathered and ioyned together in fellovvship of the Gospell , by a voluntary profession of the faith and obedience of Christ. This is proved by the Acts of the Apostles and their Epistles throughout . And if this man , or his Maisters of whome he learned to object against this description , do deny it ( as by their exceptions & reasons is implyed ) may not we justly returne vnto them , that which vnjustly they would impute vnto vs , and say , Are not they then the blasphemers of the Christians and their Churches ? Or is not this to robbe Christ of his honour ? Or may not that saying be verifyed of themselues , He that despiseth his neighbour is a foole . Pro. 11.12 . But let vs come to his proof concerning the Churches spoken of by himself . Thus he concludeth it : If no Church that hath bene since the Apostles dayes or novv is that we read of ▪ be separate from all false vvayes in their account ▪ then by this description and in tho● 〈…〉 Churches : But the former is true : Therefore the latter . Answ. The whole Sillogisme fayleth , as he hath propounded it . In the Proposition or first 〈…〉 tha● which in the description is particularly specified and needfull alway to be observed ( namely , to be companies by the word of God called out from the world and false wayes thereof , gathered and ioyned together in fellowship of the Gospell &c. Wherfore his Proposition is not so vndenyable as h● suppos●th from tha● description . And when these particulars which now he hath omitt●d be 〈…〉 to be implyed , yet then also by further following of ●he Assumptiō may there be occasion to obserue more concerning it . And for the Assuption it self or second part of the Reason , it must needs fayle in like maner , because of that omitted in the Proposition aforesaid . His reason therefore ( if he would haue reasoned soundly and to the purpose ) should haue bene framed thus : If no Church that hath bene since the Apostles dayes or now is that we read of , be in their account , by the word of God called out and separated from the world and the false wayes thereof , gathered and ioyned together in fellowship of the Gospell , by voluntarie profession of the faith and obedience of Christ , then by his description and in their account must they be no true Churches : But the former is true : Therefore the latter . Answ. 1. The very propounding of the Reason thus , sheweth the weaknes of it . 2. And what if we would not be drawen to speak of the Churches since , but onely of them that were in the Apostles dayes : keeping onely to the word of God and that which is recorded therein ? If they cannot by it or the example of those Churches disproue our testimony , what would it help them or hurt vs , if we answered them no further ? 3. Yet to answer this Reason notwithstanding , and to omit the Proposition , as is aforesaid : I requier proof of the Assumption , because all that he hath brought for confirmation of it , doth not yet proue it : as will appeare by discussing his allegations , concerning the Churches he speaketh of , 1. that were then ; 2. that now are ; 3. and our selues . For the first , viz , the Churches heretofore since the Apostles dayes , all that he saith is that we account the very saying of the Lords Prayer as a prayer to be a false way , which was vsed from the Apostles age &c. Ans. 1. Is this all he can alledge against vs concerning those Churches & tymes ? Others 〈…〉 would perswade they have it by 〈◊〉 also of those w●ite●s , that Archbishops , Primates , Metropolitans , Archdeacons , stinted formes of prayer , the vse of the signe of the crosse , and a number of such like things haue ben from the Apostles age . Should we therefore believe them herein ? And how cometh it that this Antiquarie hath never a word of all these for those tymes ? Is it that he thinketh we hold them not now for false wayes of governing the Church and worshipping the Lord ? Or is it not in deed because the Hypocrite would not yet be seen to speak for these , and would notwithstanding so diss●mble the matter , as yet may please all sorts that are against vs ? 2. To speake of that he alledgeth , admitting all he saith here to be true , yet is not the Assumption thereby proued . For in all true Churches , the calling of Christ and the Churches covenant to obey the Gospell bindes them from all errour and false wayes : notwithstanding that both the members and the whole body be subject to fall into them from tyme to tyme , while we live here on earth . If then this saying of the Lords prayer as a prayer be a false way of worshipping God , it was excluded by their calling and fellowship in the Gospell : howsoever they fell into the vse of it . If it be not a false way , then were it but our errour so to think , which we were also to corrrect , & the description notwithstanding still should stand good . Now what our judgement is concerning the right vse of that forme of prayer , together with our reasons out of the Scripture thereabout , we haue often shewed and published heretofore , in divers treatises , which till they be answered and refuted , I shall not need here to repeat them , or to insist any further vpon that matter . Onely thus much now , If the vsing of the Lords prayer as a prayer , be a part of the worship of God appointed by Christ , then did the Apostles in the planting of the Primitive Churches teach them so to vse it : For they were inioyned by Christ to teach whatsoever he commaunded them , and so they did : Mat. 28.20 . with Act. 2.42 . and 4.24 — 31. and 20.27 . 1 Cor. 11.23 . But that they taught to vse it thus , none can shew eyther in their Acts , or in their Epistles . And Tertullian saith , ( if they regard his testimony ) * Scriptura negat quod non notat : The Scripture denyeth that which it noteth not . This man therefore and such as do so hold , that the Lords prayer is to be vsed as a prayer , are bound to shew by the Scriptures that the Apostles did teach the first Churches thus to vse it : vnles they would ( with the Papists ) argue the Scripture of imperfection , or the Apostles of vnfaithfulnes . 3. The distinction of faulty and false is here also to be observed . True Churches may be faulty in sundry things ( as those of Asia , Corinth &c. and yet not straightway therefore be false Churches . True Prophets may be faulty in divers things ( as Ieremiah , Ionah , &c. ) and yet they be no false Prophets . True worshippers of God may be faulty in their worship many wayes ( as may be seen in Corinth , Colosse , &c. ) and yet not therefore be false worshippers . By which examples also may appeare , both what difference is between false and faulty , and how needfull it is alwayes in these cases to be duly regarded . 4. His proof , that the Lords prayer was vsed as a Prayer from the Apostles age , is out of Tertullian whose words be these : Quoniam Dominus prospector humanarum necessitatū seorsum post traditam orandi disciplinam , Petite inquit & accipietis , & sunt quae petantur pro circumstantia cuiusque , praemissa legitima & ordinaria oratione quasi fundamento , accidentium ius est desideriorum , ius est superstruendi extriusecus petitiones : Cum memoria tamen praeceptorum , ne quantum a praeceptis , tantum ab auribus Dei longè simus . Because the Lord that seeth mans necessities did apart after the doctrine of prayer delivered say , Ask & ye shall receive , and there be things to be asked according to the circumstance of every one , the lawfull and ordinary prayer being premised as a foundation , we may for the desires that fall out , we may from without it build therevpon our petitions , yet with remēbrance of the things cōmaunded , least we be as far frō the eares of the Lord as from his commaundements . Towching this testimony ( if it were a thing to be stood vpon in this case ) many things might be excepted . 1. Tertullian lived about 200 yeares after the Apostles dayes . 2. Many things were held lawfull & ordinarily vsed in his tyme , which were not at all in the Apostles dayes : As , prayer with cloakes put off , and hands washed ; signing with the crosse , and annoynting with oyle after Baptisme ; Godfathers and Godmothers ; mixing of water with wine in the Lords supper ; oblations for the dead ; Lenten fast ; holy water &c. 3. He also followed & was infected with divers errors , which 〈…〉 judgement , even in his owne tyme reproved and rejected : As , the Iewish errour of the Chiliastes , that the godly shall haue a pleasant life on earth , a thousand yeares before the end of the world : Also , that the Angels fell for lust of women ; That Noah , Abraham , and others of those tymes were righteous by the righteousnes of the Law of nature : Whither also may be referred his errors about Freewill , Satisfaction for sinnes , superstitious Fasts & heresies of Montanus , &c. Not to speak how from his exposition of the Lords Prayer ( even in this book here alledged ) the Papists would gather proof for their heresie of Transubstantiation , and the Lutherans of Consubstantiation . Againe , he disallowed sundry things , which were approued thē by others according to the truth : As , the Baptisme of children , second mariages ; fleing in tyme of persecution &c. 4. But if they think there be such weight in Tertulliās testimony , why do they thē at their preaching vse the Lords prayer after their owne prayers , when as Tertullian saith it vvas first premised as a foundation vvherevpon petitions from out of it might be built ? Which ( admitting the vse of it , yet ) sheweth a quite different vsing of it then , from that which now is had . And let it here be noted by the way , that Tertullian doth often in that book call it a forme & doctrine of prayer , and sheweth that Christ hath not tyed vs to the vse of those words , but thereon to build our petitions as vpon a foundation , according to the need & occasion of euery one , following his precepts . Why also do they not hear●en to Tertullian , when in the same book he saith , * Such things are iustly to be charged with vanity , as are done without authority of any precept eyther of the Lord or of the Apostles : And when other where he saith a The Apostles did faithfully deliver to the nations the discipline they received of Christ : And , b that no continuance of times , or supportation of persons can preiudice the truth ? If they wil belieue Tertulliā , their book of cōmon prayer , their Prelacy , Priesthood , crosse , surplice , and the like reteyned among them , may justly be charged with vanity , as being never appoynted by the Lord or his Apostles . Neither can al their gloses perswade that ever they came from Christ , seing the Apostles did not deliver them to the nations , as appeareth by their writings . Nor is it material , whatsoever continuance of tymes they pretend , or supportation of persons they may have . None can preiudice the truth , as Tertullian sayth . And for the poynt in hand except they can shew that the Apostles did teach to vse the Lords prayer as a prayer , it is neither the continuance of tymes , nor the supportation of any persons , be they Old writers or Churches , that can be admitted for a sufficient warrant , even by Tertullians owne testimonie . For the Churches that now are , we also refer it to our dealing with them . In our writings wee haue often signified our esteeming of them for true Churches : and in our walking towards them wee haue alwaies shewed it . And this more particularly , as we have had more special occasion , in our dealing with the Dutch & French Churches of this City . When some of their members haue left them , because of their corruptions , and come to joyne themselues vnto vs , we haue required such first to deale with them , as with true Churches alway should be done , namely , to advertise the Elders first , and then the whole body of the Church whereof they were ( if they might be suffered ) of the corruptions , for which they thought to leaue them . Which we require not of such as come vnto vs from any false Church . Also , when some of our Church have gone vnto them , and declined from the truth which they professed with vs , vnto their corruptions , we haue had dealing thereabout with the Elders both of the Dutch and French Churches of this towne , that were by the rest of their Elderships deputed therevnto , before we would proceed with the parties for this their revolt and transgression . And when the Dutch Church here received such to be members of them , as our Church excommunicated for their sinnes , we also admonished their Elders hereof , desiring that by themselves or by vs knowledg of these things might be given to the whole body of their Church . Which course of dealing we vse not with any false Church or the Ministers thereof . But to insert here in particular the dealing that hath passed between vs & them of this towne , would be to long : & their corruptions whereabout we have dealt with them , are already published . By which and this that hath here bene said , let the Reader judg , wheth●r we haue not cause to put differēce between them & the other Churches of these countries not so dealt withal . For not hearing of them in other of their Congregations in these countreys , this I answer : That seeing by the mercy of God we haue seen and forsaken the corruptions yet remayning in the publick ministration and condition of these Churches ( if they be al like to them of this city ) we therefore cannot partake with them in such case , without declining and apostasy from the truth which we haue our selues already received and professed . This also I speak of the members of our Church so walking and witnessing as is aforesaid , and not of the members of their owne Churches , whose duty I think it is , before they may leaue them for their corruptions , first to signify them vnto them , and by al good meanes to seek the redresse therof among them , as being members of the same body with them . Which I take also to be the duty of all such , as haue knowledge of their corruptions , and being not of them , yet would cōmunicate with them in their publick administration . And this for true Churches . But as for any false , these are not the duties or rules prescribed for them , but other of a far differing nature , namely , when once we see their abhominations , to separate from them without delay , and to witnesse against them even vnto death . The further declaration whereof with confirmation from the Scriptures , the Reader may have in divers of our Treatises already published about our cause . As in the Refut of Mr. Giff. In the Answ. to Mr. A.H. pag. 61. &c. But he provoketh me yet further , and saith , If he can , let him name any one Church on the face of the earth now , that holdeth not false waies , yea even in their constitution in their account . Although I might answer as before , that the calling of Christ and the Churches covenant to walk in the faith of his Gospell excludeth al false wayes in all true Churches ( whether as yet seen or vnseen ) and therfore in the Reformed Churches so acknowledged by vs : yet because he presseth me so earnestly to name but any one Church , on the face of the earth , I wil giue the instance , of that Church in the west parts of England whereof himself was a joyned member , when he separated from the Church of England , and held the same faith with them and vs , from which he is now apostate . And let him now name any false way holden by them in their constitution in our account . Of the distinction to be observed between faulty & false worship , I haue spoken * here before . As also , of his blaspheming the Christians and their Churches , despising neighbours , and robbing Christ himself of his honour . And now by that which hath ben said , let the Reader obserue how true it is in himself , that after al his earnest endevour not alone to wound but even to kill others ( if he could ) he hath turned the poynt of his weapon into his owne bowels . Which will also yet further appeare in that which followeth , in his particular objection against the Church whereof we are our selues , which he saith is not agreable to our description aforesaid . Against our selues , the proof he bringeth is this that he saith , vve are not separate from al open offenders , and all false vvayes : and to shew this , he produceth many particular persons and matters . I answer : admitting al he saith against vs both the generall and particulars were true , yet notwithstanding the description aforesaid should stand good , and our Church also agreable therevnto . For this yet should be the errour of our practise , not of our covenant or calling in Christ : According to which we are alway to esteem or Churches , as we haue ●hewed before . Otherwise to reason as this man doth against vs , were to condemne those Churches of Asia , Galatia , Corinth , and all that ever haue bene from the beginning to this day . But to come to the particulars , his first allegation is , that he saith we reteyne among vs open offenders : and for instance the first he nameth is one Cast. noted publikly in our meeting for cousonage &c. A man that is of the Church of England , and so was a good while before this book of Whites was published . Sometyme in deed he lived among vs here , but after a while began to be so noted and dealt with , as fynding the Church to be no harbour for him ( but that he must walk better , or be cast out from among vs ) he returned to England , where he knew he might be reteyned in that Church , and where Th. White his fellow will ( no doubt ) brook him well ynough . But further he saith , the Elders here defended that he ought not to be publiklie dealt withall for it , because it was not orderly made publik . Indeed we hold , that private sins should privatly be dealt with , & if any bring in publick without private dealing going before ( according to the rule given by Christ , Math , 18.15.16 . ) we suffer it not , but rebuke them that so walk . Wherevpon this White himself being by one of the brethren reproved for so dealing with the party aforesaid , it seemeth still to stick on his stomack : and the more , because afterward vpon speach thereof my self with the rest of the Elders signifyed our dislike of such disorderly and evill walking . Touching his repentance , such as were then present do testify that he shewed it for such things as could be proved against him , & in other things stood vpon his clearing . But whatsoever this White hath w●itten here against him , now that he is returned to the Church of Englād , whither himself also is revolted , the point of his weapon ( if there be any sharpnes in it ) is turned into his owne ▪ and that Churches bowels . The same falleth out in his next instance about adultery . For that man also is declined to the Church of England , and there now liveth . Thus still is he snared in his owne wordes . But yet further see how he dealeth here in that which followeth . He saith , R.B. was publickly accused in our meeting , for creeping in at a window to come to bed to another mans wife . That this is false , is testified by such as were present at the meeting spoken of , & that he did not creep in at a window so to do , we heare is testifyed even by themselves from whom the speach of these things did first proceed . Which being so , why or how should wee deale vvith him publickly thereabout ? And touching the man spoken of , it is well knowen that as he hath sinned , so he hath also repented : having therein before him the example of David in Israel . VVhere if VVhite had lived , as he hath done among vs , would it not have bene counted horrible ( to vse his own word ) so to have dealt with them , as he hath dealt with vs ? His next instance is of one of our Elders , Mr St. against whom he objecteth in particular three things ; The first , filthynes ; and of this ( to vtter his malice the more ) he speaketh fower tymes in a few leaves together , sometymes vnder the termes of filthynes with his wives daughter , sometymes of vncleannes , sometymes of incest . For which Mr. St. hath called him before the Magistrates here , for a sclaunderer , desiring that proof may be brought , or satisfaction made according to justice . The second is , supporting vncleannes in a woman a member of our Church . The woman he hath named * before to be Iud. Hol. For which also she hath called him before the Magistrates of this ci●● where we live . The third is , refusing to pray vvith his ovvn vvif● a member likevvise of the same Church . Towchi●g which he saith , h● is perswaded such cases may and do sometimes fall out between man and wife , as while ●he things so continew between them , they may lawfully absteyne from prayer the one with the other , vsing all good meanes within their own walles to be reconciled together , and to live so each with other as their prayers may not be interrupted : And that he hath not refused to pray with his wife , but in such case and maner . These are the particulars objected , after which a generall is annexed of vvorse cariage then this , often complayned of by his vvife & committed by him , which the man saith he is ashamed to mētiō . But as he nameth not the thing so neither doth he mention the persons to whome she hath complayned thereof . And if there were not some other cause in it , who can think that he is ashamed to mention any thing , that hath a forehead to write and deale so shamefully as he hath done ? Towching myne ovvn knovvledg and dealing about these things ( to speak of no other now ) this Th. VVhites wife can testify what I did therin a good while since , whereof she hath particular knowledg , and which by this dealing of his I am now constrayned to publish . As I remenber , about some five yeares since , there came vnto me a brother of the Church yet living , and told me with great heavines how he heard that Mr St. had lyen vvith his vvives daughter , and that the matter should be heard publikly in the Church . I told him , this was the first tyme I heard it , & inquired who it was that reported it to him : which he told me : Then I went my self & inquired from one to another of whom they had it , til by degrees it was brought to Rose Ph. ( now the wife of this Th. White ) to whom when I came , she did for some things which she had spoken name her authors of whom she heard them , but for this , could name none at all , but confess●d it vvas her ovvne addition : and then shewed great sorrow and repentance for her so doing . Now how she was rebuked for this her evill dealing at that tyme , I need not here to write : But leaving the Reader to lay this dealing of hers then , and this of her husbands now together , and accordingly to esteem thereof : I wil proceed to the next instances here alledged . They are of Iud. Hol. Tho. Can. Ia. Ioh. &c. whome he mentioneth here by name to be open offenders , but sheweth not how or wherein . Of Iud. Hol. I wrote before , how she hath called him before the Magistrates hereabout . And so hath Iacob Ioh : a man that hath laid downe his life for the Name of Christ , being for his witnesse thereof condemned to death , and brought to the place of execution , & then reprived , & since ●ent away out of the Lād as banished . And touching Tho : Ca. himself that here findeth fault for reteyning him as being an open offender , doth afterward in a postscript at ‡ the end of his book , fynd fault with the casting of him out , as being a man penitent , and therefore not so to be dealt withall , but still to be reteyned , according to Christs rule , Mat. 18.22 . Luc. 17.4 . By his owne confession therefore , such as repent of their sinnes , are to be reteyned in the Church , and not now to be counted for open offenders . VVhat meaneth he then thus to write of any persons repenting of their sinnes , as if while such were reteyned , the Church were not separate from open offenders ; or they vnfit members for the fellowship thereof . But if all these things were as he saith , yet are they not in our constitution , and therefore not of weight against the description aforesaid . VVhich himself perceiving , attempteth therefore otherwise to prove that even in the constitution of our Church we hold false wayes . VVhere note by the way , how himself yeeldeth that the fo●mer evils which he hath objected , are not in our constitution . And as not they , so neyther any other . For ( as we haue said , and are constreyned often to repeat it ) the calling of Christ and our covenant , which is to obey the faith of the Gospell , excludeth all evill & false wayes whatsoever . Yet let vs consider the particulars which here he hath alledged The first is , that he saith we hold the Lords prayer is not to be vsed as a prayer , contrary to Christs expresse cōmaundement , which is neyther against reason nor proportion of faith . I answer , if it be Christs commaundement so to vse it , then did the Apostles to whom it was given , both so vse it themselves , and teach others likewise to do . Neyther of which can be shewed . Then ought we alwayes whensoever we pray , to vse this for our prayer , seing Christs expresse commaundement is , When ye pray , say , Our Father &c. And so the Apostles and Christians in all ages haue sinned , when they prayed and said it not . Yea and these men themselues do aboue all other transgresse herein , who pray many tymes without vsing of it , and yet think it to be Christs expresse commaundement , which is neyther against reason nor proportion of faith . Yet also when they shall haue considered , that it conteyneth all things , whatsoever from the beginning of the world to the end thereof haue bene or can be asked aright by any , it would be knowen with what reason or proportion of faith any particular person or Church can so vse it as they speak , without speciall explication and application of the severall heads to them selues and their present occasions . Secondly , he saith our opinion is contrary to the tenour of the words , having the forme of a prayer in all things , as Our Father , give vs , and Amen annexed in the end , vvhich shevves that they are petitions not positions or rules vvhich are set dovvn in an other forme , Mat. 7.7 . & 21.22 . 1 Ioh. 5.14 . Ansvv. If it be intended by the tenour of the words having the forme of a prayer , that it should be so vsed : then besides the answers already made , I ask , VVhether we should vse it , as it is set downe by Mathevv , or by Luke . For Luke doth not onely vary from Mathevv in divers words , but also omitteth the whole Conclusion , yea and the word Amen , which is here alledged for a proof that it is so to be vsed as is aforesaid . But in deed other vse may be made ( then these men do ) of the propounding it thus by way of petitions rather then of positions or rules , as in other places is done : Namely , that Christ hereby would shew the right maner of praying vnto God , that we may with confidence come and speak vnto him in our prayers , propoūding our requests holily , carefully , reverendly , without babling , according to our severall occasions &c. And so meeteth with the manifold errours that in the vse of prayer haue crept into the world : as may be seen among the Papists , Neutral-Protestants , Anabaptists , Adamians , Euchetians , and other hereticks Idolaters superstitious and ignorant people : some thinking that we should not our selues come directly to God in prayer , but vse the mediation of some Saints or Angels &c. others , that reading on a book is prayer to God , though it be of other mens words prescribed vnto vs ; others , that we should repeat the same things over againe and agayne ; others , that we should vse sighs without words ; others , that we should not pray vnto God at all , seing he knoweth what we need ; and others , that we should ever be praying , giving no place eyther to other exercises of religion , or to any labour of the hands , &c. All which and the like heresies , and abuses of the heavenly and most comfortable vse of prayer , Christ hath prevented and condemned by this his direction for prayer , propounded after the forme and maner aforesaid . 3. Thirdly , he saith our opiniō is contrary to the vse of al Christians , that we read of , as before out of Tertullian and others may be alleadged . Answ. Then is it contrary to the vse of the Apostles and Primitive Churches of whom we read in the Scriptures . Which if any could shew , that alone would end the question : whereas the vse & testimony of any other persons Churches or ages cannot do it : As Tertullian himself sheweth when he saith , That is truest which is first , that is first which is from the beginning , that is from the beginning which is from the Apostles . But now admitting his proofs were good , that the Lords prayer ( as it is called ) were to be vsed as a prayer , yet were it then further needfull to be knowen , whether it be Christs cōmaundement that we should vse it for our prayer alone by it self , or that we should ioyne it with other prayers conceived by our selues withall . If he say , we should vse it alone , his owne testimony out of Tertullian ( besides their own practise ) is against him , who saith , that it being premised as a foundation , other petitions may be built there vpō . And if he say , we should ioyne it with the other prayers conceived by our selues , the practise and testimony of the Apostles is against him . For which see , Mat. 8.25 . Act. 1.24.25 . and 4.24 — 30. Phil. 1.3.4.9.10.11 . & 4.6 . 1 Thess. 5.17.18.19.23 . 2. The second thing is , that he saith we hold it not lawfull for the innocent parties , to reteyne the offender , as the wife her husband , or the husband his wife , if eyther partie haue committed adultery , no though the innocent party vpon the others repentance , forgiving the others sinne , be desirous still to live vvith the other party in the mariage covenant as before , but haue excommunicated the parties innocent for so doing . This in deed we haue held ( the most of vs ) heretofore : and some of vs are ‡ so perswaded still . And while we were generally so mynded , we also held it our duty accordingly to walk , taking the innocent partie that reteyned such offenders , though vpon their repentance , yet to be defiled and to liue in sinne with them , as * coupling themselues with an harlot , But since vpon further consideration of this question , discussing it among our selves , when we could not fynde divorce in the Scriptures any where commaunded , but * permitted onely ; and that such offenders repenting thereof , are not to be reputed in that case of harlots , but to be † washed from their sinne & justifyed in Iesus Christ : we have vpon these and other like reasons altered our former judgement , and now haue thus observed and agreed thus concerning this matter , That where the Magistrates inflict not death vpon such offenders ( as by the law of God they should ) it is in the liberty and power of the innocent party , eyther for that crime to put away the offender , or vpon their repentance to reteyne them : But this with these cautions , 1. So as themselues were no meanes or cause of the others so transgressing . 2. That they be no nourishers of them in the like for tyme to come . 3. That this remission and acceptance of the offender by the innocent party be done before sufficient winesses . 4. That this also ( as the mariage at the first ) be alway in the Lord. And for the Churches & the Ministers dutie therein , that it is onely to teach and require of them repentance , after the example of Christ , Ioh. 8.10.11 . or els to see them cast out of the Church , according to the Apostles doctrine , 1 Cor. 5.11.12.13 . This is that which now the most of vs do think concerning this question : being notwithstanding ready to heare , if any can shew vs better frō the word of God , which is the ground and rule of the constitution of our Church . Touching the case and excommunication of H. C. and E. H. his wife ( of which he speaketh both here and afterward againe ) how will he prove the persons spoken of to be repentant , when as the one of them denyed the fact , which she had before confessed to two of the brethren ; & the other in the iudgment of the Church shewed himself vnrepentant many wayes , which I will not here mention . And if he do not shew them to haue repented , how hath he proved that for which he alledged them ? Besides that there were also other causes for which they were excommunicated . As for that which he saith , divers of vs have accused themselues of adultery that so they might be ridde of their wives : this also he should have proved , and not onely haue said it . For we know that the persons whome he nameth ( W. H. and T. C. ) haue said and avouched earnestly , that they did it not to that end , but being perswaded that they ought not to continue with their wiues , having by their adulterie broken the bond of mariage between them . Besides , if by him or any it could be proved so to be as he saith , he knoweth we would not beare with such wickednes , but deale with them according to their demerit : howsoever without all shame he do thus abuse vs. And here by the way let me a little note this mans crossing of himself , and bad dealing against vs still . Before in the beginning of his book , he imputed vnto vs abounding with adulteries , and that above others , as if it were a sinne common and borne withall among vs , and this also more then among others . Yet here now his objectiō against vs , about the case of adultery , is such , as any may see he thinketh we haue ben too severe therein , and that aboue others . What this our opinion was , is shewed before . Wherein although we have chaunged our iudgment , as is aforesaid : yet even this particular sheweth how greatly we haue alway detested that sinne , and how contrary this White is to himself , that he might by any meanes deale wretchedly against vs. 3. The third thing is , that he saith we haue altered many things which we held in our constitution , as among other , that it was not lawfull for Apostates to beare office . He saith , many things , yet nameth but one . Towching which I might answer , that although many of vs did in deed so take it , yet it was not here so generally received by all as he seemeth to suppose , because that as there was divers times occasiō of question about it , there were of the brethren that shewed themselues to be diversely mynded : but at length the matter being often and much vrged , we did thus agree about it , That we think it not meet to chuse such into office as haue before tyme declyned frō the truth , without good caution first had thereabout : As namely , 1. That there be consideration had both of the nature of the thing done , & of the quality of the person , & of the estate of the Church . 2. That the Church have good and due tryall of such being returned , afore they chuse them into office . 3. That with these cautions , the fittest be taken into office whom God giveth in the present estate of the Church . And all these things so mynded and observed of vs , as if at any time a better way be shewed out of the word of God , we be ready to receive it in the Lord. This is that whereof hitherto we have agreed about this matter : the particulars whereof there will be occasion to set downe more at large hereafter . But now admitting that the whole Church held it not lawfull for such to beare office , & afterward altered it ( as here he saith ) : yet was this alteration but of our judgement and practise , not of the Churches constitution , as I haue shewed before : and therefore his collection herevpon ( that we held false wayes in our constitution , & by consequent , then were no true Churches ) is both false & frivolous . 4. The fourth he propoundeth as a question , saying of vs , What would it profit them to b● free from false wayes in their constitution , ● their practise be not according to their profession ? But the question and point here treated on is , whether the description aforesaid be true , or not ; and whether we our selues be a true Church according vnto it ? If we erre in practise , is it therefore a false description , or we a false Church ? The Churches of Asia and Achaia erred greatly in their practise , were they not therefore true Churches according to the said description ? But yet where the practise is not according to the profession , it makes the sinne the more grievous . True , and therefore Tho : White his sinne is vnspeakably grievous , as all they do know who haue seen what great and earnest profession of the truth he hath made heretofore , from which now he is grievously fallen . But for our selues he asketh further , sith their knowledg is but in part aswell as their love , are not they aswell as others subiect to erre in constitution aswell as practise ? If he meane in judgment aswell as practise , we graunt it : and we haue alwayes professed it : howsoever he write against vs , as if we were such as professed perfection of knowledg and practise in this life : from which errour himself knoweth vs to be as far , as we know him to be from trueth and godlynes . But if he meane by our constitution , the way of God wherein we are set , the calling of Christ with the Churches covenant , which giveth being vnto the Church , then I answer , that difference must be put between the way of God it self , and our weak walking therein ; between the calling of Christ together with the covenant of the Church , & our sinning and transgressing in our owne wayes notwitstanding ; between the Church considered in Christ the head thereof , in whom we are washed from all our sinnes , guyded in in the way of truth , and preserved to eternall life , and between the Church considered in the members thereof , as we are in our selves every one sinfull and subject daily to erre both in judgment and practise : And this not onely in the members severally , but in all of vs ioyntly together . If this distinction be not observed , who can shew that ever there was or can be true Church vpon the earth , or how we can haue true comfort in this life to our selves , or esteem and discerne aright between things that differ , as we ought ? And if it be observed , any may see that all his exceptions against vs are of no moment . It is not our knowledg or practise , but our calling & covenant in Christ that secludeth in our constitution all false and evill wayes , whether as yet seen or not . For which cause also I need not here stand vpon his needles and erroneous discourse about that which he calleth a shift , though in deed it be a point much to be respected , namely , ‡ that a true Church must be separate from all false wayes , which they see . For as I haue shewed alreadie , we ought if we will consider aright of a Church , to look at their calling and covenant in Christ , which is from all false wayes whatsoever , seen or vnseen , to the obedience of faith . Howsoever therefore we haue erred or may erre in judgment or practise ( as we and all men in this life are alway subiect to do ) yet doth it not therefore follow , eyther that the description aforesaid is not good , or that we are not a true Church notwithstanding . Further towching our selues , we acknowledge & professe before all men , that divers things heretofore obserued amōg vs at the first , we have since altered and do from tyme to time alter and amend , as God giveth vs by his word to discerne better therein : Yea and herevnto are we bound and haue power in Christ even by the constitution of our Church . So free from all false wayes is the constitution it self , and yet we that are in it subiect to erre notwithstanding many wayes . So far are we also from the straunge opinion and impietie of them , that having in this latter age of the world disclaymed the Pop●s person and rec●iv●d some truthes of the Gospell , yet reteyning many abhominations of Antichrist withall , would now stand still , and admit of no further proceeding or alteration among them . As if they had at first seen & received the whole truth and all the ordinances of Christ. Or as if Antichrist should not now by degrees be discovered and consumed , as heretofore he rose vp and was exalted . 2 Thes. 2. Rev. 14. and 17. and 18. and 19. chap. with Ier. 51.25.26.45.46 . And now by that which hath bene said let the Reader obserue , whether this fellow haue not entrapped himself and his mother Church , while he thought to haue ensnared vs. Neyther let any be so simple , as to give credit in the cause of religion to any , further or otherwise but as warrant and confirmation is brought out of the word of God , which is the ground and rule of all trueth ; nor to refuse that which is approved by it , for the aberration , opposition , or calumniation of any whosoever they be . His abuse both here and other where in his book , of that which we haue published in print , I leave also to the Reader to observe , and for himself to answer to him that knoweth his heart . As for I. N. whom he nameth in particular more then others whom he would insinuate , for borrowing and making no conscience to pay againe : he hath called him before the Magistrates here , as others before mentioned : affirming & offring to shew how in the very particular alledged by White ( when he was here demaunded his proof ) for thus divulging him , he hath offred his creditour goods sufficient for his debt with overplus : and having had to deale with him for much , hath satisfyed all to a little , yet remayning : having also had hindrance by the sicknes and otherwise . And for the generall , we acknowledg that men ought to be carefull both how they borrow and how they pay againe , and should measure these , as all other affaires , with judgment and conscience , according to godlynes . Psal. 37.21 . and 112.5 . Rom. 13.8 . And we know also , that yet notwithstanding it is the case sometime of men fearing God , not onely to be but even to dy in debt : As we read of one of the sonnes of the Prophets ; 2 King. 4.1 . But all this which hitherto he hath said , being not ynough , eyther for the vent of his owne rancour and malice against vs , or to please our adversaries whose favour he would purchase by traducing of vs : he now further pretendeth to frame an opposition between our practise , & the Treatise entituled , A true description out of the vvord of God , of the visible Church : thus setting himself to seek and abuse against vs whatsoever he can out of any of our writings . To shew his wicked dealing herein as it is , would require to insist vpon the particulars of that description , and to compare therewith the estate and walking of our Church : & that would aske a long treatise , which here I purpose not . It shall suffice , that the Reader , especially such as haue knowledg of our Church which he blameth , and of the Church of England to which he is returned , do compare them both with that description : and accordingly esteem of both as he shall fynd the estate of them to be in deed and in truth . Thereby also will plainely appeare , how this adversarie neither writeth nor walketh in the feare of God : to whom notwithstanding he must giue account of al these things . And for the particulars he mentioneth , that the equitie of our cause and iniquitie of his dealing may better appeare , I will in the treating of them first set down the words of that description from whence he would draw his opposition , and then speak of the particulars themselues . And first , for the body of the Church considered in her parts ( as here he would seem to except against vs from one to another , through the severall parts of this body ) thus it is set downe in that description of a true Church , Pag. 2. Suerly if this Church be considered in her parts , it shall appeare most beautifull , yea most wonderfull , and even ravishing the senses to conceive , much more to behold , what then to enioy so blessed a communion . For behold her King and Lord is the King of peace , and Lord himself of all glorie . She enioyeth most holy and heavenly lawes , most faithfull & vigilant Pastours , most sincere & pure Teachers , most carefull and vpright Governours , most diligent and trustie Deacons , most loving and sober Relievers , and a most humble , meek , obedient , faithfull , & loving people , every stone living elect and precious , every stone hath his beautie , his burden , and his order . All bound to edify one another , exhort , reproue , & comfort one another lovingly as to their owne members , faithfully as in the eyes of God. Thus it standeth in that description . Towching which now I would aske , 1. Whether he hold this description herein to be true and agreable to the word of God. 2. Whether he dare deny Iesus Christ to be the King and Lord of our Church . 3. Whether he acknowledg him onely to be the King & Lord of every true visible Church vpon the earth . 4. Whether these be the Offices and functions which he as Lord and King hath appointed to his Church , namely , Pastors , Teachers , Elders , Deacons , Relievers . 5. Whether these be had in the Church of England to which he is now gone , and in whom they are there to be found . 6. Whether the Church Officers there be so qualified , as here is set downe . 7. Finally , whether if any would compare the estate of that Church , in the body , officers , members , lawes , and walking thereof , with the description of a true visible Church out of the word of God , he might not make another maner treatise and other maner of obiections against them , then this Priest of theirs doth against vs. But to proceed , for the Pastor ( with which office he beginneth first ) thus are his qualities and duties set down in that descriptiō of a true Church , Pag. 3. Their Pastour must be apt to teach , no yong Sch●ler , able to divide the word aright , holding fast that faithfull word according to doctrin● , that he may also be able to exhort , rebuke , improve , with who●some doctrine , & to convince them that say against it : He must be a man that loveth goodnes : he must be wise , righteous , holy , temperate : he must be of life vn●eproveable , as Gods Steward : he must be generally well reported of , and one that ruleth his owne houshold vnder obedience with all honestie : he must be modest , humble , meek , gentle , & loving : he must be a man of great pacience , compassion , labour and diligence : he must alway be careful and watchfull over the flock whereof the Lord hath made him overseer , with all willingnes and chearfulnes , not holding his office in respect of persons , but doing his duty to every soule , as he will answer before the chief Shepheard , &c. And afterward , pag. 4. The Pastours office is , to feed the sheep of Christ in green and wholsome pastures of his word , and lead them to the still waters , even to the pure fountaine and river of life . He must guide and keep those sheep by that heavenly sheephook and pastorall staffe of the vvord , thereby drawing them to him , thereby looking into their soules , even into their most secret thoughts : Thereby discerning their diseases , and thereby curing them : applying to every disease a fit and convenient medicine , & according to the qualitie and danger of the disease , give warning to the Church , that they may orderly proceed to excommunication . Further , he must by this his sheephook watch over and defend his flock from raven●us beasts and the Wolfe , and take the little foxes , &c. Thus far that description . Now among these qualities and duties he excepteth onely about two : the one concerning pacience , the other love and compassion : Which also are such , as it is fitter for the Church & people with whom I have lived , to speak therein then my self . Neither will I set to excuse my self , knowing how subiect I am to fall into infi●mity , and to fayle in duty otherwise then I ought or would . 1. Therefore towching the former , which is of impaciency , I will not stand to speak what I could , about the persons whom he nameth in particular , the dealing then vsed , the Discourse now written , the other witnesses vnmentioned , and the like : Neyther to alledg , how deserved reproof and severity is oftentimes accounted too much sharpnes and impaciencie ; and that anger sometymes is both needfull and lawfull &c. But omitting these things , I will for my self answer this , that I am a man subject to like passions as others be . And if Moses that man of God and * meekest of all men on the earth , yet had this spirit so vexed , as he spake vnadvisedly with his lippes : what am I that I should not much more so think and acknowledg of my self , who am so privie to my owne weaknes , as I am ? 2. And for the second thing , which is concer●ing love and compassion , why should I think otherwise but that I may sometimes fayl therein ? Yet this man for it of all other might haue laid his hand on his mouth , to whom ( when at fi●st he came a straunger & poore into these countreyes ) I gave meat and drink and lodging about nine or ten weekes together , till he returned againe into England . Towching my Father ( of whom he speaketh in particular ) I do and will alway acknowledg that I was so bound to him both by nature and for his care and charge of my bringing vp , as I never did or could do ynough to shew my self sufficiently thankful . And what then should I do speaking of any thing I haue done by any meanes that way ? And in particular for the tyme whē he was here , what I did & offered him to do , at his cōming hither , remayning here , and going from hence , with other particulars that might be noted , I will not here speak neyther , what my self could if it were anothers case , or what divers others know and could testify if it were needfull . Neither wil I stand to shew what I could towching the pretence which he maketh about his being here in necessity . Of M. Sl. his abuse of me and maner of dealing at the time here intended , I will forbeare also to speak what he knoweth I might . If he at that tyme spake hereof ( as here is affirmed ) why might I not passe by it with silence , as I did at the same tyme a multitude of his raylings & contumelies , as White himself & the many witnesses then present did see and can testifie , if they will ? When Shemei rayled on David , and Rabshakeh on Israel , David held his peace , and Hezekiahs people answered not a word . 2 Sam , 16.5 — 13. 2 King. 18.36 . Yet now I thought good to speak and write thus much considering there is a tyme to speak , as there is a tyme to keep silence . Eccles. 3.7 . Pro. 26.4 5. But to leave these men , that which I will here speake further is this only , that it is needfull for all in all things carefully to observe and follow the rules prescribed by Christ , not declining to the right hand or to the left ; not preferring one to another ; not yeelding to our owne affections & desires , but submitting them alway to the will and loue of God. As we read , that Levi was commended of Moses and blessed of God , for not respecting father , mother , brethren , or children , but preferring before them the keeping of the word and covenant of the Lord : Deu. 33.8.9 . And it is noted in the description aforesaid , among the Pastors duties there mentioned , that he hold not his office in respect of persons , but do his duty to every soule , as he will answer before the chief Shepheard . In the performance whereof also the Pastor and other Elders and governou●s of the Church are to be accounted and regarded as Fathers . But I will no further insist herevpon : neyther speak I these things to excuse my self in any thing I have done or omitted otherwise then I should . I acknowledg my sinnes are many and my infirmities great : and my strength and salvation is onely in the Lord Iesus : For whose sake I have ( through his mercie ) suffred much rebuke , and I trust shall patiently beare it to the end . Next he cometh to speak of the Teacher , whose qualities and duties are thus set downe in the description aforesaid , Pag. 3. Their Doctor or Teacher must be a man apt to teach , able to divide the word of God aright , and to deliver sound and wholsome doctrine from the same , still building vpon that sound groundwork , he must be mighty in the Scriptures , able to convince the gainsayers , and carefull to deliver his doctrine pure , sound and plaine , not with curiositie or affectation , but so that he may edifie the most simple , approving it to every mans conscience : he must be of life vnreproveable , one that can governe his owne houshold , he must be of maners sober , temperate , modest , gentle and loving , &c. And afterward , Pag. 5. His speciall care must be to build vpon that only true ground-work , golde , silver , and pretious stones , that his work may endure the triall of the fyer , and by the light of the same fire , reveale the Tymber , Hay , & Stubble of false Teachers : He must take diligent heed to keep the Church from errours . And further he must deliver his doctrine so plainly , simplie , & purely , that the Church may increase with the increasing of God , and grow vp vnto him which is the head , Christ Iesus . Hitherto is that description : wherein the qualities and duties set downe , be many and great . 1. Yet cannot this Adversarie satisfy himself with them all as he would : and therefore coming to make exceptions against the Teacher , he fetcheth his first , out of the generall description of the Church spoken of before , objecting that the Teacher is sleyned with hypocrisie : and to proue it he alledgeth his dealing concerning G. I. M. Sl. Yet sheweth it not so much as in any one particular : thinking belike that some are so simple in themselues or so set against vs , as they will take his word for proof sufficient , who ●eyther knoweth that dealing himself , & in the things which he knoweth can ly so notoriously , as if he had the art of lying and would be a teacher thereof vnto others . 2. The second thing he objecteth , is apostasie : because that many yeares since having received this cause he did sometimes yeeld to heare the Ministery of the Church of England . But synce that tyme hath so approved himself among vs , both in the witnesse of the trueth & in the service of the Church , as hath ben for the great help and comfort of vs all , and my self in particular bound to testify concerning him , as Paul did of Marcus Barnabas sisters sonne , that that he hath ben my workfellow vnto the kingdome of God , which hath ben to my consolation . Col. 4.10.11 . For the question it self and our account of Apostasie , I shall write more particularly hereafter . 3. The third thing is , that he saith he hath ben a meanes to bring in and defend false doctrines . But what be they ? First , The latter of those two before mentioned . Now that latter was about apostasie in the matter aforesaid . So as then himself accounteth them to be apostates , that having held our cause do afterward yeeld to heare the Ministery of the Church of England ; and that it is a false doctrine , that any such may afterward beare office in the Church . And what then is this Whites own case , who being a Minister of the Church of England , left both that Church and Ministery , and received our cause , and witnessed the trueth against them , and yet now hath yeelded not onely to heare but even to execute himself the Ministerie of that Church againe ? But he will say , that among the Errata ( at the end of his book ) he noted this for one , that for the word ( latter ) we should here read , former . I have obserued it : and well in deed might he note it amōg his Errata , who even while he would blame others of errour , doth so straungely erre himself as to put latter for former , one contrarie for another . But this might be an oversight ( as often falleth out in printing ) which therefore I would not haue noted , but that I think there is a worse thing in it : namely , that at first he both wrote and meant it of the latter , which is about apostasie , vntill he had himself apostate from the t●ueth and executed agayne his Ministery received from the Prelates in England : and therevpon now would alter it , measuring the doctrines of religion , not by the word of God , but as may best serue his own turne . And I am perswaded the rather thus to think for these reasons : 1 because when he began to set himself to be an enemie of this Church and could not prevaile as he desired , he then began to make question about apostasie , whether any such might beare office in the Church : 2. If we vnderstand it here of the former , as his Errata now would haue it read , it is nothing to the purpose at all : seing there is in it no speach of any points of doctrine , but of hypocrisie ; and seing an hypocrite may notwithstanding teach true doctrine . For els it would follow , that neither Iudas nor White himself did heretofore teach true doctrine when they preached , because Iudas was and he is an hypocrite , both of them through hypocrisie betraying Christ into the hands of his enemies . His other proof of false doctrines which he pretendeth is set down after his woonted manner , others that may be alledged : yet not naming any , which no doubt he would have done if he could , or if he durst adventure the triall of them with the Teacher of our Church whom he thus envieth and abuseth , who notwithstanding for his learning , wisdome , and godlynes , as also for his faithfull teaching of the Church and vpright walking toward all , is so well knowen & approued , as neither he nor we need regard any adversaries malice & opposition against him . After this he commeth from the teaching to the ruling Elders , whose properties and duties are thus noted in the description abovesaid , Pag. 4. Their Elders must be of wisedome and iudgment , endued with the Spirit of God , able to discerne between cause and cause , between plea and plea , and accordingly to prevent and redresse evils , alwayes vigilant & intending to see the statutes , ordinances , and lawes of God kept in the Church , and that not onely by the people in obedience , but to see the Officers do their duties . These men must be of life likewise vnreproveable , governing their own families orderly , they must be also of maners sober , gentle , modest , loving , temperate , &c. And afterward againe , pag. 5. Their especiall care must be , to see the ordinaunces of God truely taught & practised , aswell by the Officers in doing their dutie vprightly , as to see that the people obey willingly and readily . It is their dutie to see the Congregation holily and quietly ordered , and no way disturbed , by the contentio●s and disobedient , froward and obstinate : not taking away the libertie of the least , but vpholding the right of all , wiselie iudging of times and circumstances . They must be ready assistaunts to the Pastour and Teachers , helping to beare their burden , but not intruding into their office . Thus is the description . Now towching our Elders , he taketh here his exception against two of them . The first is , Mr Da. St. against whom it may be he is the more eagerly caryed , because he discerned so quickly into him , being a notable white hypocrite , and dealt so plainly & roundly with him as he did : And therefore also exc●pteth not a word against him , for his ability to discerne into persons and causes and to deale with them accordingly , nor for sundrie other of the properties and duties here required , though they be many and waighty . Yet some things he speaketh of , which he had twise before , besides that which he hath also hereafter : so as I need not repeat and speak of them , as he doth againe and againe . Yet somewhat more I will note here touching the particulars excepted out of the description . 1. The first is , of being indued with the Spirit of God : Of which we haue seen many and great testimonies in Mr St. from tyme to tyme. He hath bene an auncient disciple of Christ in the faith of the Gospell this many yeares ; He hath given vp his life for the name of the Lord , being adjudged to death , & so remayning many yeares vnder the sentence and dayly expectation thereof , till he was banished ; He now liveth still an exile for the same truth of Christ ; And in the governement of the Church hath had to deale with so many causes , persons , and dispositions ( yea oppositions also of sundry people ) as if he had not bene indued with the spirit of God , & that in great measure , he had never bene able so to have endured & waded through them all , as he hath done . Which also may both strēgthē himself still in the Lord , & stop the mouth of all his adversaries . And for this Th. White himself , let it here be considered : 1. Whether he be fit to beare any office at all , yea or to be so much as a member in the Church of God , if he be tried but by this one particular , of being indued with the Spirit of God. 2 With what spirit he hath written this book of his . 3. Whether he haue not therein many times and sundry wayes blasphemed the holy spirit of God. For which he shall answer to the Lord. 2. The second thing is , that he saith he would defend the transgressing of the lawes of God in himself and others . Note , that he saith not he hath done it , but that he would do it . And how shewes he this ? Not so much as by pretence of any one particular for proof thereof , Yet this is the man that would perswade his Reader he could make due proof of any thing he layeth to our charge . 3. The third thing is , about the governing of his house : for which he referreth to that he hath els where cited , and so do I to that which is there said . Yet let himself take this withall , that if the things be true which are reported and observed concerning his own family , he might have found work ynough at home , and cause ynough to cast a beame out of his owne eye . But I will not follow his course in this maner ( howsoever it might be iust ) to deale with him as he doth with others . 4. The fourth is , of crueltie and tyranny : for proof whereof he allegeth that some of our owne members have complayned , that if they had a matter as cleare as the sunne against him , yet durst they not deale with him for it . But who be these some he speaketh of ? why doth he not name them at all ? Or would he haue vs to think that they be some such as hate the light , knowing that their works are evill , and whome he therfore concealeth : that he might shew himself with his fellowes Mr P● . and the rest to be fit receivers for such reporters ? Or why did he not obserue , that the Elders must be men of wisdome and judgement , able to discerne between cause and cause , plea & plea , & that it is their duty to repress the contentious & disobedient , froward and obstinate ? Which by whomsoever it be done , who can otherwise think but such will be as ready to open theyr mouthes against them , as they are to please themselves in their own eyes ? But howsoever they may for a while lurk & walk in the dark , yet God in his time will bring them to light & discover them , as he hath done this White himself & sundry other the like heretofore . 5. The other of the Elders he speaketh of , is Mr St. Mer. against whom he excepteth for Apostasie . The matter was thus . About thirteen yeares synce , a litle while after he was come to this cause which we professe , being in the countrey with his friends , he was there perswaded that he would heare some of the Ministers of the Church of England preach : Which he did once : And straightway after being affected therewith , did it no more . Which also he made knowen himself , whereas otherwise it was vnknowen to vs. Now after that time living with the Church , and being wel approved among vs , he was about five yeares since chosen to be one of the Elders . Thus is the case : wherein now mark this hypocrites dealing . The qualities and duties required in the Elders being so manie and great , as in the description are noted : was there nothing whereat he could except , but this onely ? And was his malice such , as rather then he would say nothing , he would except evē for that which himself accounteth to be good and lawfull ? Let such dealing then returne into his owne bosome , and be a comfort to such as be thus abused by him . From the Elders , he cometh to the Deacons , whose qualities & office is set down in the aforesaid description of a true Church , pag. 4. Their Deacons must be men of honest report , having the mysterie of the faith in a pure conscience , endued with the holy Ghost : they must be graue , temperate , not given to excesse , nor to filthy lucre . And afterward againe , Pag. 5. The Deacons office is faithfully to gather & collect by the ordinance of the Church , the goods and benevolence of the faithfull , and by the same direction , diligently and trust●lie to distribute them according to the necessitie of the Saincts : Further they must enquire and consider of the proportion of the wants both of the Officers and other poore , and accordinglie relate vnto the Church , that provision may be made . Here he excepteth onely against one of our Deacons , Mr C. Bow. To whom about eleven yeares synce , the Magistrates of Narden did once ( and not weekly , as this man intimateth ) send a litle money to be given to the poore of the Church : which he together with one of the Elders ( Mr. G. Kniston ) did accordingly bestow vpō such as they iudged to stand most in need . Whereof because goodwife Colg . ( the woman of whom he speaketh ) had not a part , therevpō by her meanes it seemeth was this report raised of Mr. Bow. which now this fellow hath published : and for which with his many such like instances , he is by Mr B. called before the Magistrates as a sclanderer . And touching the woman no marvel if shee so abused him , who hath synce in other things caryed her self so vngodlily , as she is cast out of the Church , and so remaineth . And for Mr. Bow : how wel he hath approved himself in his office , I shal not need to relate : neither need he regard any sclanderous tong or pen , knowing his owne integrity , and having the Churches testimony , to which he hath with good approbation ministred in that office now about fourteen yeares . After this dealing with sondry of our officers in particular , the adversarie commeth to speak of the Elders ioyntly . Against whom he obiecteth , that we called R.W. ( that is Rose White his wife ) before vs in the first place , for a private thing . But it was , for that her child was kept vnbaptized ; and for that we heard she had entertayned Ma. Sl. at her table , who is a man excōmunicated by our Church , whereof she was then a member . For these things onely was she called before the Elders : and for the first , together with her apostasie from the truth which before tyme she had professed with vs , she was a while after excōmunicated by ●he whole Church . For the latter whenas she answered that it was her husbands doing , without her liking , and against her will ( though not so signifyed vnto him ) & that her self gaue the excommunicate no countenaunce as approving his estate , we rested therein : instructing her onely how to cary her self in such cases for tyme to come , & exhorting her to be carefull accordingly to walk as by the word of God we have rule and direction . Now for the hypocrite her husband himself , whereas he saith here , the Church of Christ do privately admonish a private sinne of a holy and loving affection : how will he shew this in the Church of Englād , whither he is gone ? or doth he hold it not to be the Church of Christ ? or that it is by some priviledg not bound to the ordinances of Christ ? Not to speak how himself by his owne mouth is condemned , whiles he acknowledgeth that Christiās ought thus to walk , & yet publisheth he careth not what , things private or publick , true or false , and that with a wicked and malicious affection . Lastly , from the officers he cometh to the people : objecting against them vncleannes , cousoning , disgracing , backbiting , and vndermyning one of another amongst themselves . But this onely in generall termes : And so might any vnclean mouth , and backbiting sclanderer , traduce any people in the world . Will he now then apply to himself & to his practise and † consorts in this work , that which the Prophet speakes , With our tounge will we prevaile ; our lippes are our owne ; who is Lord over vs ? Psal. 12.4 . Why boastest thou thy self in malice , ô man of power ? the loving kindnes of God indureth every day . Thy tounge imagineth mischief , it is like a sharpe rasor , ô thou worker of deceit . Thou lovest evill more then good , lyes more then to speak the truth . Selah . Thou lovest all words that may destroy , ô deceitfull tounge . But above all , mark now the wickednes and blasphemie of his conclusion of this point . Which that it may the better appeare , & with lesse praejudice of others be regarded , I will put the case in an instance of Iacobs family , before Christs coming in the flesh , and of the Church of Corinth , synce Christs time : and therein will alledg ( not things forged , perverted , and abused , as this enemy doth against vs ) but true things onely and such as are recorded in the Scriptures themselves . That the family of Iacob was the Church of God , cannot be denied . Now in it we fynd , that Iacob having two wives and two concubines , his wives envied one another ; Rachel stale away her Fathers idols ; Dinah his daughter was deflowred ; his sonnes deceitfully beguiled the Sichemites ; Simeon and Levi slew them in a rage ; Reuben committed incest with Bilhah his fathers concubine ; the other brothers hated envied and sold Ioseph into Egipt ; and coloured it with lving to Iacob their father ; Iudah lay with Thamar his daughter in law , taking her to be an whore , &c , Will now any man of knowledg and fearing God infer therefore herevpon , and say , Were these then the Church ▪ the Saincts , the Israell of God ? Were these the fathers of the tribes of Israell , so greatly renowmed through all posterity ? Were these the stones , the precious stones , embossed in the High priests Brestplate ? Were these the twelve Patriarks for the tyme of the Law , answerable to the twelve Apostles for the tyme of the Gospell ? Yet such you see are the conclusions , but in deed the delusions , of this blasphemous wretch . But see it further in the Church of Corinth vnder the Gospel . In which , were schismes and dissensions , strife & envying , wrath and backbiting ; vncleanes and wantonnes , fornication and incest , hurting and jnjurying one of another , abusing of Christian liberty , sitting in the Idols temple at the Idols feast , declining from the Lords ordinance in the vse of the Sacraments , prayer and prophecy ; denying of the resurrection , &c. If now this white paynted hypocrite had lived in that age and Church , as he did with vs of late , would he nothing haue respected their faith , their order , their constitution , wherein they were set by the Apostle : but reprochfully have concluded and inferred against them , as here he doth , saying , Are these then this beautifull ? yea most vvonderfull Church , ravishing the senses to conceiue of it ? are these the Saincts then marching in such a heavenly & gracious aray , where every stone hath his beauty , his burthen , and his order , where no law is vvrongfully vvrested , or vvilfully neglected , no truth hid or perverted ? Thus indeed he shall shew himself to be one of those Ministers of Sathan ( spoken of in that Epistle ) who can transforme himself as though he were a Minister of righteousnes ; whose e●d ●hal be according to his workes : howsoever f●r a tyme he may d●lude many poore soules and frustrate their expectation , as already he hath done . As for W. Ha. & E. Ha. whose words ( as if they were of waight ) he recordeth , he should haue remembred , that these his companions are such whose mouth is no sclander , two such like as himself , poor soules in deed as touching faith and godlynes , but abundantly rich ( so to speak ) in dissembling , lying , rayling , backbiting &c. and therefore fit witnesses for such an accuser , their owne sayings fit testimonies against themselues , that they never needed to have separated themselues from the Church of England , as they did , being such also as this society would quickly have thrust them out from among vs , so living and practising as they do . No marvell then if when they had seen our estate , they were frustrate of their expectation , & therefore returned agayne to the Church of Englād , knowing it to be a fit cage for such birds . And hitherto of the second head of his Treatise , concerning the ●●scription of a visible Church . According to which , if we would compare the estate of the Church of England , in the members , officers , worship , ministration , &c. as he hath done ours : let the Reader consider , whether it would not in truth be found so cleare a testimony against them and their practise , as neither he nor all his consorts ( the Prelates and their chapleynes ) could ever be able to turn away . Neyther that onely , but even their own description of a visible Church , as it is set downe in their Articles of religion agreed vpon in the yeare 1562. Artic. 19. which is thus , The visible Church of Christ is a congregation of faithfull men , in the which the pure word of God is preached , and the Sacraments be duly ministred according to Christs ordinance , in all those things that of necessity are requisite to the same . Which ( to vse his own words ) is a cleare testimony , & a pregnant sentence of condemnation against themselves and their practise . Of which also I have otherwhere spoken heretofore , which yet re●ayneth vnanswered . Of the third head of Th : White his Treatise . THe third is , that he saith we condemne others , in those things that we would and do practise our selves . Which he pretendeth to shew in divers instances . 1. The first is , For communicating with open offenders . For which he refererth to that which is before shewed : and so do we : Adding this further , that our Church is so far from communicating with such , as it excommunicateth them , when once they are convinced and found obstinate : which himself knoweth to be true . 2. The second is , for making men swear to accuse themselves . A thing which neyther my self practised to I. L. ( as here he falsely objecteth ) neyther is at all practised among vs eyther publikly or privately that I know of . And for the matter of incest so reproachfully divulged against Mr St. this man knoweth himself that Rose White his own wife was the rayser of that opprobrious report , that he had lyen with hi● wives daughter : and that she both confessed it vnto me her self , & could not deny it here before the Magistrates , when she was by Mr St. now of late brought before them about it : as this man himself also is for a sclanderer , as I shewed before . For his not denying it for the clearing of himself , though he were requested for the satisfying of weak brethren so to do , he saith that he remembreth it not . But being thus dealt withal , he hath written this answer himself , which here I will annex out of his owne writing given vnto me hereabout . The malice and envie of this T. W. ( against me Da. Stud. ) hath appeared to be exceding great , both in his often speaking of me in his book as he hath done , and especially in this place , where making an end of mentioning my name , he thought he vvould powre forth his rancour to the full , Therefore thus he saith , Yet would not their Elder Da. Stud. never so much as deny the matter of incest with his wives daughter , for the clearing of himself , though hee were requested for the satisfying of weake bretheren so to do . In these words of his , he would make the vvorld beleive as if some came vnto me in frendly vvise to know vvhether I had committed incest or no , and as if they required my direct answere vnto it for the satisfijng of weak bretheren . To vvhich his vvords I answere : First thus : That there never came any so vnto me as he falsely forgeth , and therefore herein he lyeth egregiously . Secondly I aske vvhy he did not set downe vvhat my answere vvas to such as he insinuateth came vnto me . For if my answer vvere evil , no doubt he vvould not haue spared to sett it dovvn : if it vvere good , they vvould and ought to have rested in it . Further it is to be mynded , that he hath not named them that came vnto me , vvhich if he had done , himself saw that then his wickednes vvould the more appeare . Thirdly this I do affirm , That such as have spoken vnto me ( about this slander and reproch raysed of me ) in any christian and orderly manner , I have answered them to their full satisfaction : and to such as disorderly and reprochfully have spoken to me thereof , I have , ( mynding the persons as I esteemed them ) eyther passed by them with silence , or else vrged them to do the vvorst they could vnto mee , being ready to answere them according to their dealing vvith me , as I have now endevoured to do vvith this T. W. & Rose his vvife ( the first author of this accusation ) vvhom I have called before the Magistrates , for slandring of me . Fourthly being thus provoked by him , my answer now is , That if T.W. vvith his father if he vvere living ( being reputed to have skill in the black art ) had the help of him , and of all the divells in hell ioyned together , yet should he never be able to prove this his vvicked slander vpon me . Moreover I vvould demaund these things of T.W. as followeth : First vvhether he vvill denye that his father spake thus of him , I misse my ayme if ever this my sonn T.W. do proue a good man. Secondly , vvhether he wil deny that he knowes not some that can tell of his evill dealing about Clokes . Thirdly vvhether he vvill deny that he hath not dealt yll vvith some about a Bible . Fourthly : vvhether hee vvill deny that he hath committed the like sinne as T.C. hath , vvhom he mentioneth in his book . Lastly I ask him , vvhether if he do not presently deny these things , or any the like , that by any shal be demaunded of him , he be content to have it taken for granted that then he is gilty of them . If this be his iudgment , let him take it to himself , as vvise as he vvill be othervvise mynded . And thus I leave him & this his dealing and account thereof , to him that iudgeth righteously , and so end vvith this saying , An hypocrite with his mouth hurteth his neighbour , but the righteous shal be delivered by knowledg , Da. St. 3. In the third , he hath againe cowched divers vntruths together . As when he saith we condemne the Dutch Churches , for baptising the seed of those that are not members of their Church . Which is not so : but we dislike in the Dutch Church of this towne , that they baptise the seed of them who are not members of any visible Church , and besides admit not the parents themselves to the Lords supper . Great difference there is between these two , not to be members of their Church , and , not to be members of any visible Church . And this it seemeth himself perceived , and therefore kept not our words , as he had them set downe in the book alledged by himself . But yet more , in that he saith my self with the rest could offer to receive Mr Deuxburies child to baptisme , who neither was neyther would ioyne himself a member vnto vs. For Mr Deuxb . ( who dwelt about fifteen miles from vs ) being desirous that we would baptize his child , we wrote vnto him that we could not admit of it , vnles he would make profession of the same faith with vs , & be careful so to walk , eyther with vs or with some other Church , in the same truth of the Gospel , as God for his dwelling & estate should give him opportunity . Which he not performing we baptized not his child . And of this refusal of ours , himself spake but a day or two before his death , to one of the mēbers of our Church , a soldier who was then with him in the army where he was slayne . Which things being so , how then should it be as he saith further , that we were offended at G : I. for withstanding it , when we our selves so wrote and dealt in it , as is aforesaid . Or how had he any hand in this busines , when Mr Deuxb . writing to one of the Elders , had answer from them all ioyntly , of whome he was none ? 4. In the fourth , his bad dealing doth yet further appeare : it being a matter , wherewith himself is acquainted , and yet propoundeth not the case truely , as he knoweth it to be . VVe have indeed misliked in the Dutch Church ( not Churches , as he speaketh ) of Amsterdā that consisting of so great a multitude , it is but one , and yet meeteth in three severall places : by meanes whereof , the whole Church cannot come together in one ; the ministers can not together with the flock sanctifie the Lords day ; the presence or absence of the mēbers of the Church cannot certainly be knowen ; nor any publick action be rightly performed . Which reasons we signifyed to themselves in our dealing with them heretofore . On the other side , we misliked also that a few people , being straungers together in one towne , of one language , of one profession in religion , & having not before tyme their peculiar officers , should in such case yet divide themselues into severall Churches : For which I required example or warrant out of the Scriptures , and alledged my self divers reasons about this question . And what contrariety now is there in these things , being laid together as they ought , with their true and due circumstances ? Such perhaps as the false teachers would pretend against Paul , when he circumcised Timothee , Act. 16.1.3 . and yet would not circumcise Titus , but withstood the false brethren that vrged it , Gal. 2.3.4.5 . The others he speaketh of , were himself and some other with him , who had left the Church of England , and came to dwell here . Touching whom , seing he pretendeth that they ioyned not to vs for divers disorders amongst vs , I wil here advertise the Reader a few things cōcerning them , and those also specially out of their own letters , which being as their owne children shall also be their Iudges . Whē they had left the Church of England , as having a● Antichristian Ministery , worship , confusion , &c. they first joyned in & to a Church in the West parts of England professing the same faith with vs. A while after , they came over hither , & at first communicated with vs : but afterward ( being about twelve or thirteen ) they ioyned themselues here as a body together , to walk in the same faith and way as we do ; reputing and calling themselves a Church , distinct from vs , and in their letters to the Church of the West countrey thus inscribed them , The Church in Amst. to our bretheren the Church in the West , partakers of the same heavenly vocation , &c. And in the letter wrote thus , For our consultatiō & resolution thus it is , To meet apart by our selves , aswell for the redresse of disorders that may arise , as also for the administration of the word , expecting the blessing of God which hath not chosen vs for our multitude , seeing we were the fewest of all others . And againe in the same letter , for our own estate , though our hope to be a body distinct in our countrey vvere , yet is not our hope to be a distinct body in a straung countrey frustrated , but rather accomplished . And afterward againe speaking of vs , and themselues , they say , For the other Churches estate , though that acknowledgment of them vvere graunted , yet all things considered , vvhether God doth not offer vs occasion to increase the number of the Churches , and our selves to vvalk together in holynes to the Lord , vvho have had better experience one of another then of that Churches estate , that by this meanes the adversaries reproches , of one Church , and flocking therevnto , setting vp one head , may be stopped , is the thing vve pray you to ponder . Thus they wrote in a generall letter together . And in another of theirs written in particular by this T. White & Tho. Pow. We ( say they ) through Gods mercy haue our meetings now apart from our bretheren the Church in Amsterdam , building vp our selves vvith that small ability that God hath inabed vs vvithall &c. as also receiving such members as vve fynd meet and desirous of our fellowship . And afterward in the same letter , W● haue had one meeting already together , vvherein M. W. is ioyned . Consider that vvhich is vvritten , Exo. 7. ● . and pray vvith vs that the Lord vvould s●nd the Northvvynd and the Southvvynd , the one cold the other hote , Luk : 12.55 . that is , the liuely graces of his spirit in the preaching of his Law and Gospell , to blow vp that our garden may be fruitfull , Cant. 4.16 . but not an Eastvvynd vvhich vvithered Ionas gourd , Ion 4. Thus wrote they then of themselves . By which may appear , both what they intended , and for what . They intended to be a severall Church from vs , though they were but a few , and of the same faith , living straungers together , in the same towne , &c. And the cause why they did it , That they might redresse disorders among themselves ; that they might be a distinct body in a straung countrey , as they purposed in our native countrey , before they came over hither ; that they might encrease the number of Churches ; that they might stop the adversaries reproches , of one Church , and flocking therevnto , setting vp one head ; that they might receive such mēbers as were desirous of their fellowship ; and that they might also themselves be a garden , fruitfull , &c. If these things were so as then they wrote , how saith he now in his book , that the cause why they would not ioyne to vs , was for disorders amongst vs ? How do his letters and his Libell agree together ? Specially seing in the same letters , at the same tyme , they write vs to be their brethrē the Church in Amsterdam ; of whose estate they had not that experience &c. Belike he had forgotten the old saying , Mendacem oportet esse memorem , A lyer had need have a good memorie . And further , if it were as he saith now , why did they not then so alledg , that we might haue insisted therevpon ? why shrank they from the handling of the question between vs , which we would have discussed by the Scriptures , had not they refused as they did ? But ( if some be not mistaken ) there was an other cause then any of the aforesaid , which they will not make knowen , namely , that Mr Po. & this White might have bene Officers of that Church , whereof they had little hope among vs to satisfie their desier : Which whether it were so or not , themselves know best . And howsoever , yet with what face can this hypocrite write as he doth , that they would not joyn to vs for divers disorders among vs , when but even a while after , they returned to the Church of England , which they knew certainly to have not onely divers disorders , but even a multitude of the corruptions of Antichrist the sonne of perdition . Well might he write of these things , as he did in another letter of his to Mr S. W. Respice finem , Look to the end . For as they sowed , so have they reaped ▪ not having the wind of Gods grace to blow vpon them that they might be a fruitfull garden , but the worme of Gods judgment to smite them that they might become a withered gourd . And this according to his owne prophecy ( though as Caiaphas speaking more trueth then himself intended ) when to the same Mr S. W. he wrote thus also , Certainly if God doth not worke mightily for vs we shall come to desolation . Balaam even then when he would have cursed Israel , prophecied the truth , though against his will. 5. The fift is a meer calumniation , like the rest . In the place quoted , we blame in the Dutch ( as we do also in the French ) Church of this towne , that the rule and commaundement of Christ , Mat. 18.15.16.17 . they neyther observe , nor suffer rightly to be observed among them . ( If this man-pleaser could approue them herein , why doth he not ? ) For our selves we do carefully observe it , & think all the Churches of Christ are bound so to do . For deciding of matters which are of publick nature , they are made knowen and decided among vs in & by the whole body of the Church , and not by the Elders alone . Yet therein we have this order , that all such matters be first signifyed to the Elders , to whom the oversight of the Church and affaires thereof apperteyneth : by whom likewise they are proprounded advised & treated of also publickly , as the cases do require . Of which points we have spoken sufficient ( at least till we be answered ) in our Apologie against the Oxf. Doct. pag. 63.64 . Notwithstanding if any come to the Elders , eyther for our advise or to have some matters brought to the Church , we shew them what we think to be best as we are perswaded our selves : & yet debar not any from proceeding further , so as they will answer their doing to the Church , as there the case shal be found to be . And this to be our practise and maner of walking , I think this man himself knoweth well . For T. C. his matter , the Elders did not decide it ( as he falsely saith ) but shewed him what we our selves thought to be best according to godlynes , and required of him to do no otherwise in it , then he could answer to God and to the Church . Of the matter it self , as also of W. H. is spoken here before , pag. 33. And for that he saith here , seeing W.H. his wife put him away , who can constreine her or any other in like case to retein such if themselves be not willing . For the bringing of matters in a third place to the Elders , as they have obiected : Mr P. himself & the rest of them have ben answered , that we do not so : but that when in the third place a matter is to come vnto the Church by that rule of Mat. 18. this is the order we keep therein , that first knowledg thereof be given to the Elders , the overseers of the Church , then that they seing the matter to be such and so dealt in as is to come to the Church , it be by them publickly propounded and prosequuted as is meet : whereas otherwise both the Church might be troubled and mens names and private matters be brought in publick without iust cause . And this we do , not adding to that rule of Christ ( as this man and his followers have still objected ) but having that care and keeping that order in the observation thereof , as the Scriptures els where lead vs vnto . For which , see 1 Tim. 5.17.18.19.21.22 . & 4.14 . Heb. 13.17 . Rom. 12.7.8.1 . Thes. 5.12.13.14.27 . Rev. 2.1.7.8.11.12.18.29 & 3.1.6.7.13.14.22 . with Exod. 3.16 . & 4.29.30.31 . & 12.21 . and with 1 Cor. 14.40 . By which also may appeare how frivolous it is , that he saith we alledge the same reasons for our practise , which we approue no● in ●he Dutch. As if we should put no difference between the Eldership alone hearing and deciding the publick matters of the Church , & between the Elders according to their office having knowledg advising and propounding of such matters to be heard and discussed by the body of the Church jo●ntly together ; Or as if the reasons which warrant a lawfull thing , should also beare out that which is vnlawfull ; or that we should not therefore disallow them , when by any they are so applyed ? And for the abuse of that rule of Mat. 18. whether through evill affection in partiality and envie , or to an evill end to cover filthynes withall , if any do so as he saith ( measuring others it may be by the length of his owne foot ) they are to answer it to God , who knoweth the heart and tryeth the reynes to give to every one according to their works . Our duty is , for that which man may see & judge , to have that rule as all other the ordinances of Christ carefully observed among vs : Whereat let him consider if his heart grieve not more then it doth that the Church of England , of which he is , neyther doth nor can in their estate observe that nor many other the ordinances of Christ : by reason whereof they cannot be esteemed a true Church of Christ in such constitution : As I shewed before , pag. 8. 6. For the sixt , which is about the worshipping of God in the Idol Tēples of Antichrist , can he not put difference between the ordinarie publick worship of the Church in such places , and the occasionall receiving of a●mes therein by the poore ? Neither between the benevolence of a Church to the Ministers or Saints of Christ ( which is ●he sacrifice spoken of Phil. 4.18 ) & the relief of a City given to the poore that dwell among them , be they of any religion whatsoever , one or other ? Which I speak not , as discommending the care they have for the poore among them ( which is very great , and much commendable ) but to shew the nature of this action , & how it is performed . Nor will he discerne between the solemne appointed worship of God by the Church so assembled together , and the private duties of thankfulnes , of salutation , or the like ? Or doth he think we hold it not lawfull to walk vp and downe in the Idol Temples , as they vse in Powles at London ; or if we be walking there , to lift vp our hearts to God as occasion may be ; or if we meet some there of whom we have received a benefit , to give thē thankes , Or if their Temples were made prisons ( as in Powles aforesaid there are divers ) and some of vs committed thither ( as heretofore sundry have bene by the Prelates ) that we would not pray there , yea & preach also as there might be occasion ? Or when we did so , would he therevpon inferre ( as now he doth ) that we cōdemne others in those things which we would and do our selues ? A senseles conclusiō : but wel beseming a Baals Priest , that hath a good will ( if he had ability withall ) to plead for Baals altars and houses . As for the poynt it self , and the place of Deut. 12. we haue written already in other Treatises not yet aunswered . Therefore need I not now write more about it here . But let the Reader obserue here how this Idoll Priest himself yeeldeth these places to be Idoll Temples , and the Temples of Antichrist : Yet bringeth no warrant for the reserving and appoynting of them to spirituall vse in the worship of God : but saith playnly , if the cōmandement Deut. 12. be moral ( which he cannot deny , if he hold it morall for the Images and altars ) that then no civill vse of them may be had at all , much lesse spiritual . And yet I suppose he will not deny , but Iehu the King of Israel put the house of Baal to a lawfull vse , 2 King. 10.27 . 7. The seaventh is , that whereas we shewed the Dutch here , that they vse a new censure of Suspension , which Christ hath not appoynted : yet we ourselves suspended M. S. many moneths together before his excōmunication : But this he should have proved so to have ben . The Dutch suspend their members from the Lords supper , and yet admit them to participation of the word and prayer . so did not we . But the case was thus : The said Mat. Sl. having declined from the truth which before he professed with vs to sundry errors of the Dutch here , it required many dayes to deale with him and convince him in them all , which we were carefull to do . Now when some of them being handled , he was admonished by the Church to repent and returne to the truth , and he notwithstanding obstinately persisted against the voyce of Christ so speaking vnto him , there were some of vs who thought it not lawfull to have any more spirituall cōmunion with him when he came to our publik metings . Whereabout there b●ing some question , and all the particulars being not yet finished , it was agreed for the present , when he did so come , to deale with him about the residue of the poynts yet remaining . Which being donne , and divers dayes ( week after week ) being so imployed for the convincing of him in all : the Church did then excōmunicate him , as here is said , and so he remaineth at this day : a man overcome with the love of this world ( here called his preferment ) and never a whit too good , when he was at the best , to be of our fellowship , which is in the Gospell of Iesus Christ. For which , he that thinketh any too good , is himself stark naught . 8. For the eight , about non residency , howsoever he speak of Mr Br. his absence fr●m the Church , and this without any leave thereof , yet himself knoweth that he with some others of vs was vpon speciall occasion sent by the Church into England , and there imployed a long time about that busines : Wherein also what good paynes he took & with what great carefulnes , even this White himself was often a present beholder & witnes . When he stayed there , vpon other occasion , he saith it was not so long as here is deceitfully pretended , ( though longer then he or we would have had it ) and that he could not then possibly do otherwise , as things fell out . But I will not here insist to speake , what may be done in cases of necessitie or speciall occasion ; or to put difference between factours , servants , and men agreing together on mutuall conditions ; nor vpon the difference that is between Ministers of the word and the Deacons ; and specially the difference between one man having two three or fower benefices ( as they call them ) by reason whereof , though he be still with some of those Churches , yet must he needs be a non resident all his life , and between one Church having two three or mo Deacons , by meanes whereof though some be absent vpon occasion , yet there are other vsually present to performe the duties apperteyning to the office notwithstanding . But of these things I will not stand . For that which we desier and approve is , that he which hath an office should waite on his office , Rom. 12.7.8 . 9. Now followeth the last of his instances , but not the least for the lyes and sclanders conteined therein . The first particular here spoken of is about this , that we blamed in the Dutch Church of this towne , that they receive vnrepentant excommunicants , to be members of their Church : which by this meanes becommeth one body with such as be delivered vnto Sathan . But this man had no list to set it downe in our owne words , because he hath no love to speak of things as the truth is . And if there were no other corruption but this onely in the Church aforesaid , let such as are of judgment consider whether we have not just cause to put difference between it , & the other Churches of these countreyes that stand not in like transgression : ( of which we spake before , pag. 25. ) and whether we which know these things and have had dealing with them thereabout , may suffer the members of our Church to joyne with them in this estate , in any part of their worship and Ministration , be it the preaching of the word , or any other whatsoever . Yet notwithstanding it is false that he saith we excommunicated our owne members onely for hearing the word preached amongst the Dutch or French : for those whome yet we haue cast out hereabout , it hath bene partly for their revolting frō the trueth which they have professed with vs , to the corruptions of these Churches ( which declining as they may shew in hearing the word preached among them in such estate , so are we accordingly to esteem thereof ) and partly for other sinnes withall , whereinto they have fallen . And a most shamelesly it is , that he saith we are our selves one body with an excommunicate from the French Church . The party whom he intendeth ( now one of the Elders of our Church ) was not excommunicated by them , but did himself leave them for their corruptions , after he had long & much dealt with them in all good manner to the vttermost of his power thereabout , & they persisted therein notwithstanding . The next particular here spoken of , is about our dislike of them for that they observe daies and times , consecrating certaine dayes in the yeare to the Nativitie , Resurrection , Ascension of Christ &c. Which this adversarie himself knoweth we do not : though his conscience be so seared as he careth not how he bely vs and abuse the Reader , so he may seem to say something against vs. And straunge it is ( if he were not impudent out of measure ) that he is not ashamed to say that we observe their holy dayes as much as they do . A thing which is false , in both the instances which himself giveth hereabout : the one being about the shutting of shops , the other about our publick meetings for worship , on those dayes . For towching the first , such of vs as shut their shops , do it not in respect of religion or with observance of publick worship as they do , but partly thinking it to be a thing civill which may be done at the Magistrats appointment , seing no spirituall observation is vrged vpon vs withall , partly chusing rather so to do then to pay the penalty whereto otherwise they are lyable , it being far more then in compasse of the day they could by their labour obteyn . Others of vs do on those dayes follow their ordinary labour , & some have bene called and have answered it before the Magistrates , alledging divers reasons of their doing , in regard of Gods requiring but one day in seaven for publick worship , and permitting six for labour , & because of the popish and superstitious observance of these tymes still reteyned , and other the like . And what though in these things , being matters of such nature and question , we have differed in judgment ? Is it any other thing then the Christians in the Primitive Churches , & at this day , & in all ages haue ben & may be in divers cases subject vnto ? For the second , it is a notable deceitfull vntruth , that we have our meetings for worship on their holy dayes : For although their Easter and Whitsunday falling alwayes on the Lords day , & the feast of Ascension of the fift day on the week called Ascension Thursday , we haue our publick meetings on those dayes , yet it is not at all in respect of their holy dayes , but because that weekly we have our meetings on those dayes all the yeare thorow . Besides , if we observed their holy dayes as much as they do , we should have a religious regard of them & have our publick metings for worship as they have , on Christmasse day & the morrow after , also on the morrow after Easter and Whitsunday . Which dayes together with the former he knoweth they observe , and we not . Yet shameth he not thus to write as he doth : as if his Lords the Prelates had given him a dispensation to lye and calumniate , no matter how , and that now he is growen so wicked and shameles that he counteth it nothing so to do , if thereby he may please his Lords or pleasure himself : God thus justly punishing his former hyprocrisie and present apostasy : & so matching his writing with his walking , as it should be an evident testimony in the sight of all how vndeniably his owne collections are true in himself , as in his Lords too , which so injuriously he would apply vnto vs ; and how far he is behind the very heathen , even Medea her self which said , Video meliora proboque , Deteriora sequor , I see better things & approve them , but I follow the worse : wheras himself , after the example of his Patrones , though he see better things , yet doth not so much as approve them , but set himself to oppugne them what he can possibly ; and for the worse things , doth not onely follow them , but approve and applaud them most shamefully : yea and therevnto bringeth pretended allegation of Scripture , as if it were no sinne to take the Name of God in vayne , and make the Scriptures serve his owne fancy , yea his lyes & calumnies . For which certainly the Lord will not hold him guiltles . And where he pretendeth against vs as if he could declare false and impertinent allegation of Scripture , and yet passeth by it vndeclared : the Reader observing his purpose and dealing may easily gather , that if he thought himself able to do it , he wanteth no will therevnto . That which he referreth vnto in a book already published , will not prove it so much as in part ; no though himself with all his ayders do joyne withall . The point is about the Scriptures alledged by vs against the yearely chaunge of the Elders in this Dutch Church , and not continewing in their office according to the doctrine of the Apostles and practise of the Primitive Churches : Which Scriptures be these , Rom. 12.4.5.6.7.8 . 1 Cor. 12.11.12 . &c. Act. 20.17.28 . 1 Pet. 5.1.2.3.4 . and Numb . 8.24 . &c. Where there be many reasons expressed and included , plainely disproving the yearely chaunge and dismission aforesaid : As namely , the authority and work of the Lord making them Overseers of his Church , and placing them as members in his body ; the duties of wayting on their office , of feeding the flock cōmitted vnto them , of attendance , care , and watchfulnes therein ; the account to be given thereof vnto the Lord ; and the reward to be hoped for from him according to his promise at that day ; and other the like . Neither can any example , or reason of sound consequence , be shewed frō the Scriptures for warrant of their practise . But I need not speak further of this point , vnles some would vndertake their defence against vs in the particulars wherein we have had to deale with them . Which neyther themselves could performe , nor any other would yet so much as attempt for them , though some great learned men have had just occasion therevnto , if they could have done it . As for that he saith of the book aforesaid lying vnanswered , we have divers reasons for so leaving it . 1. It is but part of a book , printed before the rest was finished : And to see the whole , might be of speciall vse if an answer should be given vnto it . 2. Synce the writing thereof , it pleased God to visite him with sicknes that he died : And seing he is dead , we do so leave him : forbearing now to write what we could : a● is well knowen to many . 3. He did not , like as this man , leave or contrary our generall cause and testimony against the Church of England : but held it so himself , as of late going into England he was there taken and put in prison for this cause , where he died vnder their hands . These reasons among other we have of not answering it : Being notwithstanding alway ready ( as there is just and needfull occasion ) to answer for our selves , & to defend the trueth and equity of our cause & dealing , or wherein we haue erred to acknowledg and amend it , as we have often signifyed heretofore . Now for that wherewith he cōcludeth , even false accusations of whole Churches , & would shew it by comparing the 7. accusation in our letters to Mr Iunius , with the practise of the Dutch Churches : it is to be observed , that the particular corruptions there noted whereof we have advertised the Eldership of this Dutch Church , be ele●ē in all : so as this enemy graunteth himself ten of them to be true : And for the other , that one whereof he speaketh , namely their yearly chaunge of Elders , it also is so true , as the Ministers themselves deputed among them to deale with vs , & knowing best their owne estate & practise , did never so much as once offer to deny it ; and their continuall practise ( if they have not left it of late ) avowcheth it against all gaynsayers . Yet this flatt●rer ( to speak somewhat for them ) shameth not to say that is false which is very true : like as here before against vs he affirmed those things to be true which are very false . A fit servant for his Lords the Prelates , with whom it is cōmō in all their dealing against vs , to account & give out of the truth that it is falsehood , and againe of falsehood that it is trueth : That in himself and his Masters may be seen verifyed that saying of Plautꝰ here alledged , Iustum non iustum , non iustum iustum , quod vobis placet . Let them therfore consider their wayes in their heart , and lay their hands on their mouth : Els let them know that out of their owne mouth they shal be judged , according to those denuntiations & reproofs here spoken of , both by the Apostle , Rom. 2.1 — 9. and by the Prophet , Psal. 50.16 — 22. and by Christ himself , Mat. 7.1 — 5. Luk. 19.22 . Which I leave this hypocrite with his fellowes to ponder and apply to themselves : and will now conclude this third head of his Treatise , and our answer to his false accusations , with that saying of Apuleius , Insimulari quivis innocens a quovis nebulone potest : Or rather with that answer of Nehemiah , It is not done according to thes● words that thou sayest : but thou feynest them of thyne own heart . And with that of Salomon in his Proverbes , Be not a witnes against thy neighbour without cause : for wilt thou deceive with thy lippes ? And hitherto concerning the third head of his Treatise . Of the fourth head of Th : White his Treatise . THe fourth and last is , that he saith we have drawen the curse of God on our selves by rash vniust & wicked excōmunication . Where first in generall observe these things . 1. That we have the power and vse of excommunication : without which no Church can walk aright in obedience of the faith of Christ ▪ nor long continue without manifold errors and corruptions prevayling among them . 2. That even by this appeareth we hold that evill men may creep into and arise in the Church . 3. And that when they are once knowen and will not be reclaymed from their evill , we approue them not , but cast them out from among vs. And so this fourth poynt being well observed , overthroweth the whole tenour and intendement of all his writing against vs. Now to come to the particulars . 1. About thirteen yeares synce , this Church through persecutiō in England , was driven to come into these countreyes . A while after they were come hither , divers of them fell into the heresies of the Anabaptists ( which are too common in these countreys ) and so persisting were excommunicated by the rest . Then a while after that againe , many others ( of whom specially I think he speaketh he●● ) some elder some younger , even too many , though not the ha● ( as I vnderstand ) fell into a schisme from the rest , and so many of them as continewed therein were cast out : divers other of them repenting and returning before excomunication , & divers of them after . As for him in particular of whom he speaketh that he was distracted in mynd , 1. He was not then so knowen to be , neyther so reputed of his fellowes , but onely that he had some trouble of conscience which disquieted him . 2. Yet sithens it hath bene pleaded by some that he was dist●acted , wherevpon to himself it hath ben offred by the Church , that if he would come & affirme as much publikly in the Church as he and others had said more privately to some of vs thereabout , and that the contrary could not by any be shewed against him , then the Church would acknowledg that they offended in casting him out , and he should be received agayne . But this he would never yet do : although it have bene signifyed to him againe and agayne by my self and others , that thus the Church had agreed concerning him . And thus standeth his case . For the excōmunication in generall , it was in deed recalled : wheervpon C.S. one of the schismed here mentioned by him , wrote vnto me thereabout . ( And here the Reader is to know that my self with some others of vs , both of the officers and other brethren , were then prisoners at London , while these things fell out in the Church being in the Low countreyes . ) Now in his letter he wrote , that the brethren had revoked it as rash and vniust , denying also that he and the rest with him had made the separation &c. With this letter I acquainted the other also then in prison : & we thought it best ( considering the case as we had before ben informed and tooke it to be ) to send his letter to the brethren aforesaid , that they might see how he had written thereof , & we might know the truth of things how they stood . Wherevpon the matter being againe and further examined both by them & by vs ( as in such estate and distance of place we could do ) it was in the end agreed vpon by the Church , that the excommunication was iust and not to be recalled , notwithstanding the errors in the maner of proceeding thereabout : which the Church then did and alway is ready to acknowledg , and wherevpon they had before revoked it 〈◊〉 vniust , onely in respect of that cir●umstance , but not at all clearing the schismed of their transgression they stood in ▪ which at that time the schismed themselues agre●d vnto , confessing the cause they stood for , to be evill . And now both for their good whom this matter more specially concerneth , as also for the satisfying of others , and that Th. White his abusing of vs may better appeare , I will here briefly note downe the grounds whervpon the excommunication was esteemed iust & not to be recalled : as I find in some writings reserved about this matter : Which was thus . 1. The excommunicated were found to be abettours of an evill cause , and therevpon to have made the schisme at the first : and so were guilty of the sinne for which they were proceeded against . And this was then agreed on all hands , as we were let to vnderstand . 2. They also were afterward divers tymes and wayes reproved & admonished thereof ; They had sight of the witnesses testimonies about the matter then in question ; they heard the reasons gathered by one of the brethren for their conviction ; the Church sent vnto them of the best able of the brethren to deale with them , besides that we wrote from London concerning this matter , exhorting them to peace &c. And all this before the last message of the Church vnto them , which was that they should ●●me to the Church , & there they should be convicted , or if they came not they should be cast out . 3. They yet remayned impenitent and despised the Churches voyce and authority . Which appeared by their answer to the Churches message aforesaid , being to this effect , That as by cōmaundemēt or as vnto the Church they would not come at any time : And , that whereas some of them were to go out of the towne on the morrow , and all of them were at that time vnprovided to maynteyne their cause , if they might have a hand with them in appointing another day , they would come to conferre with them and mainteyne that they did . In which answer be divers things shewing their impenitency and despising the Churches authority . 1. Their answering resolutely , that by comaundement or as vnto the Church they would not come at any time . 2. That they would have an hand in appointing the day when they would come . Which might have greatly infringed the libertie & power of the Church , to yeeld vnto schismaticks an equall authority in such cases . 3. That their comming should be to conferre and mainteyne their cause , not to shew repentance . Besides that some of them also dispitefully asked the brethren , when they would draw out their woodden dagger , &c. Now whereas it hath bene objected , that they refused not simply to come , that charity would have taken things in the best part , that the Church might have appointed them another day &c. it was also graunted that these and all such things should have bene duly weighed afore the censure had bene executed , and that whatsoever errour was committed therin is alway to be acknowledged : yet for the reasons before alledged , the censure was deemed to be just and not to be recalled . And for those he speaketh of that withstood their receiving in againe , even this sheweth that there were then among themselves which thought the excommunication was not to be revoked . Yet were not they therefore excommunicated , as he saith : but were earnestly exhorted to rest in their difference of judgement , and notwithstanding it peaceably to continew with the Church , if it were but till they could vse the advise and help of others for the better clearing of this conttroversy which had so long & much troubled thē . Yet they would not , but left of all communion with the Church : and so persisting , were for this cause excommunicated : Who also afterward vpon acknowledgement of their e●rour therein were received agayne . Finally for the reversing agayn of the censure aforesaid , who k●oweth not that even the best and wisest men have their second & 〈◊〉 thoughts : and that in some cases this befell the Prophets & Apostles themselves : howsoever here he terme it a dallying : esteeming others belike by himself who hath so chaunged and rechaunged his faith and profession as if he thought he might dally with religion at his pleasure . But the Lord is not mocked : As he hath sowed to the flesh , so let him look of the flesh to reap corruption . For as every man soweth , so shall he reap . Gal. 6.7.8 . 2. Of the second instance , which is about such as have heard the word preached in the Dutch Church , I have spoken before . If he had named the divers he speaketh of , it might have bene shewed that they were cast out for divers causes . As M. Sl. whom onely he nameth in particular was , for receiving and maynteyning these errors , 1. The baptising of the seed of such as are no mēbers of any visible Church of Christ , neyther can be themselves received to the Lords supper in any such Church . 2. Read prayer , or a set forme of prayers prescribed by men for th● worship of God : As also , mainteyning that that onely is not to be vs●d in the worship of God , which God himself hath commaunded . These are other things then onely hearing the word preached , as this Proctor for excommunicates objecteth agayne and agayne in his Libell . And both the Teacher and my self told him aforehand what would follow , if he ioyned with the Dutch in these corruptions aforesaid . Which M. Sl. himself knoweth to be true . As he doth also that the other matter here intimated , was about their Temples ( whither he was to bring the schollers to the publick worship ) : concerning which there being then some diversity of judgement , and himself affirming that he had alwayes held it lawfull to heare in those places , & so had ‡ before practised , after he was come to this cause , I said ( as I remember ) that it should not trouble my self , & for others I would therein perswade them the best I could : † But whereas we heard that the Dutch baptized all that were brought vnto them , & vsed also read prayer in their worship , I told him also that if these things being so he should partake with thē therein , that thē his case would prove such as we could not keep cōmunion together . Yet he went on , & persisted , and so for his receiving and mainteyning of these corruptions among them , about baptisme and read prayer , he was cast out of the Church . By which also , this mans dealing and depraving a●ter his maner , may here be observed . And for the generall , of excommunicating such as being of vs have declined to the corruptiōs of these Churches , the Law of God requireth that all sinne and sinners be censured without respect of persons . And who ever would have blamed ‡ such of the Primitive Churches as were free from the errors found in † others of them at the same tyme , about the resurrection from the dead , fornication spirituall and bodily , iustification by workes of the Law &c. if any of their members declining therevnto they should have excommunicated them for this cause . If the particulars noted in this Dutch Church be not errors & corruptions , why is not that poynt vndertaken to be cleared ? If they be such , why should we not for them accordingly censure our members declining therevnto ? 3. Of the third , which is about the question of Apostasie , ( often spoken of by him who is so notable an Apostate himself ) I have spoken somewhat before , Pag. 34. Now further the Reader is to know , that while my self with some other of vs were prisoners in England , there fell out question about this matter among the brethren here in these countreyes . Whereof knowledge being given vnto vs from hence , we wrote a letter vnto them , setting downe what our judgment then was about this point , & the reasons perswading vs therevnto . And this is that wherof he speaketh here : which we wrote to the Church being absent from it . Whereabout some of the brethrē from hence wrote vnto vs a while after , how they were contrarie mynded , and their reasons thereof . Afterward it pleased God so to dispose as we were discharged out of prison , and came over hither . Being here , there was speach and question againe about this matter : And some of vs did now consider further about it , more being observed out of the Scriptures about this point , then at the first had ben . And so began the alteration of our iudgment to be such as it is . Which was a good while before ever we heard any thing concerning Mr A. So very false it is which here he writeth thereabout . And for those that were cast out , these things are to be observed : 1. Both the poynt in generall , and the case in particular was considered . For the generall , these questions were spoken of , whether the Priests being speciall types of Christ , the exception out of Ezech. 44. where they are spoken of , do yet include all persons , tymes , offices , and conditions , &c. Also , whether even in the tyme of the Law , the Levites ( which were not of the Priests ) falling to Idolatry , and afterward repenting , might not againe have and execute the same office & function as they had before : And in the New Testament , whether Iohn Mark at first refused by Paul for his apostasie , Act. 15.37.38 . was not afterward received by the same Apostle and employed in the Ministerie of the Gospell notwithstanding , Col. 4.10.11 . &c. For the particular , it was also considered , what the exceptiō was about ( which is spokē of before , Pag. 42. ) that thēselves could not deny but he was a man very fit for the office in all other respects ; that he was already in office , and the thing before this tyme not knowen to the Church concerning him ; ( although if it had bene knowen , consideration were to be had of the nature of the thing done , of the condition of the person , of the estate of the Church , and other the like circumstances to be observed thereabout ) that both before and after his being in office he had well approved himself to and with the Church , to the great help & comfort of vs all , &c. 2. Yet notwithstanding they persisted and left of to participate with the Church in all his ministration therin . 3. We entreated them that they would not so walk , but to continew with vs as before , at least till we might eyther among our selves or by others have further help and dealing about this matter : but they would not . Wherevpon they were for this leaving of communion with the Church , together with other causes which he noteth not , cast out : and some of them a good while synce vpon their repentance received in againe . For that which he saith of not answering the reasons in writing , note these things : 1. We were absent from the Church , when we wrote the reasons aforesaid in a letter sent hither : but now were here present with the Church to speak mouth to mouth with any that did or should make question thereabout . 2. We also signified , that if it were so that we were absent , having like occasion as before , we would then write as before we had done : but being now present to speak and reason together , we thought it best so to do . Not to speak any thing now of the persons and their dealing that would have it otherwise . 3. Yet when the matter was still vrged , we further advised & agreed about it , of some particular circūstances or cautions to be observed therin : Which were set down in writing , and given to the ruling Elders , for any that would come to read or reason thereabout : And vpon occasion we gave the same also in writing to the Eldership of the Dutch Church here . These things T. White himself knoweth , and heretofore thought it sufficient to satisfy any that were reasonable : howsoever now he write thereof . And where he saith we would not suffer the reasons to be read in our . meeting , being requested there vnto : sometimes in deed we did not suffer it , wishing the parties that were contrary minded vnto vs to shew their reasons out of the word of God ( whether they were those conteyned in that writing or any other ) and so to reason from that ground , which is the onely rule of our faith : sometimes also for the more satisfying of all , they were both read and reasoned of in our publik meeting . As for playing Sathans part , let him apply it to himself , who hath heretofore both by word and writing out of the Scriptures approved our cause against the Antichristian estate of the Church of England , and having now left and oppugning it , yet hath not , ( nor ever can ) vse as good meanes to disprove it , and to approve the estate of that Church whither he is returned : With whom also it is so common throughout his book , to obiect against vs things very false , & to conceale or deprave the things he knoweth to be good : and all this to calumniate the truth and vs that wi●nesse it before the world . For that which he annexeth of Mr Ad. such as were here present , do neyther remember it , nor think it to be true : howsoever he affirme it : And if it had so bene , yet who knoweth not that alteration of practise doth vsually follow alteration of judgement ? And if in other cases , why not in this also ? Finally we do here know but in part : & are subiect to erre both in our judgment and in our walking : as I deny not but in these things thus much vrged vpon vs we may have done . Yet our desire hath bene and I trust shal be alway to try all things by the word of God , and to keep that which is good . 4. The fourth instance is of W.A. cast out for recalling a former Schisme , spoken of a little before in his first instance . Whatsoever W.A. now say , the Church heard and see what then he spake & did . If he do still repent of that Schisme , standing to the acknowledgemēt he made , that matter is soone ended . To the writing of Th. White and others about this matter , this answer was given by the Elders ( which the messengers can testify ) that it being about excomunicatiō , it was a matter which cōcerned the whole body of the Church , and therefore if they had any thing to say thereabout , they should come to the Church at our publick meeting , and there they should have an answer . But thither came they not . So themselves kept back an answer from themselves . And still Th. VVhite keepeth on his course to write falselie . What the schisme here spoken of was & whereabout , see before , pag. 65. As for appealing , seing it is from an inferior Iudge to a superiour , we hold it Antichristian to enterteyne or admit of such appeales from one Church to another , because Christ the Lord hath given like & equall power & authority to all his Churches on the earth . Yet notwithstanding may and ought one Church to help another , by any good meanes they can , as there is occasion . But what is this to the appealing and tryall whereof he speaketh , when such as be excōmunicated by this Church , would have their matters and the like submitted to the Dutch and French Churches here , or any other els where ? For which themselves could not by the word of God shew any warrant : And against which we had & have these reasons following . 1. That the Iudge which God hath ordeyned in these cases , is to be submitted vnto , and not to any other , Deut. 17.8.9.10.11.12 . 2. That the highest Iudge ordeyned now of the Lord for all sinners by Ecclesiasticall censure , is the Church , even that particular Church whereof the sinner is a member , Mat. 18.17 . with 1 Cor. 5.4.5.12.13 . 3. That all Churches of Christ haue equall power , and are not one over another , but have Christ himself over all , and in middest of all , Rev. 1.13 . & 2.1 . And therefore in vrging our Church to submit to another Church , they sought to draw it into Antichristiā bondage , which we might by no meanes yeeld vnto , Gal. 5.1 . Rev. 14.9.12 . 4. The sinne and sinner being bound in heaven ▪ how may the cause be submitted to men on earth ? Mat. 18.18 . 5. If the censures of the Church , then also other doctrines of the Gospell & our faith in Christ , might aswell by the same ground be brought to like submission . 6. It is contrary also to the Confession of our faith published , Artic. 24.25 . 7. And this way there would be no end of strife : for if the two Churches disagreed , a third & higher must be sought vnto by like reason ; and if yet they agreed not , an higher then that : and thus might the vsurped Supremacy of the Romish Church and Pope grow and be established . 8. Finally if we might & would assent , yet these Dutch & French Churches do not heare any such matters ; but they are heard and handled onely by the Eldership ( by them erroneously put in place of the whol● Church ) as we have had experience vpon other occasions . Now though we might not ( for these and like reasons ) submit as they required , yet we also signifyed that if these Churches or Ministers , or any els whosoever , could shew vs by the word of God to have faulted in any thing , we were willing and ready to heare them . These are our reasons and this is our refusall and walking in such cases . Which this White knoweth full well , and therefore his sinne is the greater , to write and deale notwithstanding as he doth . 5. The fift instance , which is about receiving the penitent offenders in cases of adultery , is spoken of before , pag. 32.33 . To which I refer the Reader : & will now onely aske of him , whether he would have any to reteyne vnrepentant adulterers and adulteresses , and so to partake in their sinne ? It may be some of his Lords the Prelates can quickly take him out as bad lessons as this : specially he being so apt a scholler for such Maisters . Yet may not we reteyne such members in our Church . And if we should , what exclamations would he make against vs , as in deed justly he might ? Here therefore mark the wickednes of this Impe of Sathan , common to him with such enemies of the truth and Church . If any stand from and against the Church , be they never so lewd & wicked , he is ready to favour & partake with them . But if any continue with the Church , though they repent of their sinnes as David , he will not cease to maligne and abuse them , yea & to defame the whole Church therby , as if it were a company of adulterers &c. as before in his book hath appeared . 6. The sixt instance is of his owne wife , Rose White , excommunicated for two things , though he mention but one : 1. First for not bringing her childe to baptisme ; 2. For falling from the truth which she had professed with vs , to the corruptions of the Dutch Church here where she ioyned her self a member . And the man he speaketh of , her husband , is himself , matches one for another . For the abuses which he speaketh of , to give an instance , was not one of them our observing of that rule Mat. 18.15.16.17 . in such maner as we do ? For which when he had reproved the Church , and was after a weeks respi●e called vpon for his proof , he was glad openly in the Church to say he was vnprovided : and came no more to our meetings to prove it at any tyme afterward . Yet such is his face as he will boast of his reproving abuses amongst vs. Towching his wives alleadging of the example of Timothees mother that did not circumcise him , and no other cause mentioned but that his ●ather vvas a Grecian , he saith she could get no answer ; whereas the whole congregation then present knoweth how many things were answered about it , & sundry reasons vsed about this case of not bringing her child to Baptisme , vpon her husbands forbidding : As , That the covenant of grace made with the Church in Christ , was without respect of persons or sexe , there being in him neyther male nor female , Gal. 3.28 . and therefore though the father should refuse or neglect , the mother hath right and ought to present . That she might not deprive her seed of the sacrament of Baptisme vpon her husbands will , any more then her self of the Lords supper if he should forbid her , because that by the believing womā the children are clean , as well as by the believing man. 1 Cor. 7. ●4 . & she now being of our church & her husband not , we were to call vpon her for performance of her duty . That baptisme was a signe of incorporating into Christ , and salvation by his death and resurrection , so as her neglect of baptising her child could not but be iniurious both to Christ and it . When these & the like perswasions were vsed vnto her , and she had nothing to answer but asked why then Timothees mother did not circumcise her child , our Teacher ( as he remembreth ) answered that the cause was not certainly knowen , for it was not expressed in the scripture : If she were living and present we would demaund of her self , but she is now dead and gone , wherefore it were hard for vs to determine of the cause , but this Ro. White was living and present & must give account of her own wayes : That we must not walk by example but by law of God : for even the most righteous may offend , & Moses himself faulted in neglecting the circumcising of his sonne . Exod 4. And if Timothees mother being a Iewesse did mary with a Gentile an infidel , who therefore would not suffer her to circumcise her sonne , & she obeyed him ; that such mariages were forbidden of God and vnlawfull : And then she sinning in marying with him , why might she not also sin in keeping her child vncircumcised for him , if that were the cause as now this woman pretended ? Wherefore she was put in minde rather of the examples of other good women , as Abigail , 1 Sam. 25. the elect Lady . 2 Ioh. Epist. also of some spoken of in the Machabees ( though that book be Apocrypha ) which lost their liues for causing their children to be circum●ised . 1 Mach. 1.63 . 2 Mach. 6.10 . It was also demaunded by some of vs , how it could be shewed otherwise but that Timothe●s mother might be ‡ in the faith of the Gospell before he was born and he in that respect might be vncircumcised ▪ Also , whether the women in Noahs tyme should have refused to enter into the Arke , or the women of Israell in Moses tyme to go themselves with their childen through the red sea , if their husbands had bene against it ? Both which were types and resemblances of our baptisme , as the Scripture sheweth , 1 Cor. 10.1.2 . 1 Pet. 3.20.21 . These and the like reasons being then shewed and spoken of , and now vpon this occasion thus noted downe , let the Reader here consider of this mans dealing and his wives , and accordingly esteem thereof as now he findeth it to be . His scoffing at the Teacher of our Church , not onely for his words then vsed , but even at the office it self which he executeth ( and therein at the † ordinance of Christ ) hurteth not him nor vs , but encreaseth this skorners sinne & judgement vpon his owne head . For that which he saith of myself , I did in deed with hold my consent towching the first cause of her excommunication about the childes baptizing : making some doubt about the case aforesaid , partly in respect of the husbands authority over his family , partly because of the objections arising about the case & Scriptures alledged out of Act. 16.3 . &c. Yet notwithstanding I gave my cōsent as touching the second cause thereof , for her falling from the truth to their corruptions here : And that so , as I said also I was willing for it to pronounce the sentence my self , if the Church should so appoint . By which compared with his writing may appeare , how still he keepeth on his woonted course against vs , & hath himself drawen fourth this vnfolding of his evill dealing and his wives too . For the others of whom he speaketh ( viz , Mrs Sl. Goodw. Ch. & R. M. ) they were excommunicated for other causes then he hath noted downe . And it is not our maner to cast out any for differēce of iudgement in such cases , if they be content notwithstanding to walk peaceably with the Church , and to cary themselves towards the excommunicates as they should by the word ●f God. But if they joyne with them in their evill , as some of these more specially did with his wife , then are they also for so doing justly subiect to the ●ame censure with them , as in this case likewise came to passe . That which he speaketh of the Magistrate is false : he did not forbid , but perswaded vs not to do it . Though if he had or should forbid vs any thing which God requireth at our hands , we have learned to obey God rather then man : As we did then answer him , that what we did , we would alwayes be ready to approue by the word of God. And now by that which hath bene said , let the Reader judge whether this fellowes hard forehead verify not the Oratours saying , He that 〈◊〉 passeth the bounds of modestie , becommeth imp●dent out of measure . Excommunication we vse as the holy ordinaunce of God , to recover the parties that have sinned ( if so it be his will ) and to keep the Church from the leaven of their wickednes . If we did it not , we should dishonour God , and be accessary to their evill . But observing it , we vse the remedie which Christ hath given vs , for their good : and if it work not so in them , then is their destruction the more iust vpon their heads , and we are cleare . Neyther doth the long suffring spirit of meeknes hinder but that due execution of the Lords judgement vpon obstinate sinners be inflicted . And being so done , neyther will this mans cursing vs for good hurt vs , not his blessing of himself & others in evill help them . Therefore to his many curses denounced against vs , I will give no other answer , but say with Salomon , The curse causeles shall not come , but fly away as a birde : and returne vpon him that allegation out of the Prophet , As he loved cursing , so shall it come vnto him , and as he loved not blessing , so shall it ●e farre from him : and as he clothed himself with cursing like a garment , so shall it come into his bowels like water , & like oyle into his bones . And for his blessing of himself and others in evill , I will referre him to that denuntiation of Moses against every such one , as when he heareth the wordes of the curse , yet blesseth himself in his heart , saying , I shall have peace , although I walk according to the stubburnes of mine owne heart , 〈◊〉 adding drunkennes to thirst : The Lord will not be mercifull vnto him , but then the wrath of the Lord and his ielousy shall smoke against that man , & every curse that is written in the book of the Law shall light vpon him , and the Lord shall put out his name from vnder heaven , and the Lord shall separate him vnto evill out of all the tribes of Israell , according vnto all the curse● of the covenaunt , that 〈◊〉 written in the book of the Law. Deut. 29. ●9 . 20.21 . For that which he speak●th of our Tents , it is to be noted that this man himself desiring heretofore to partake with vs in the Lords supper , did in our publick meeting compare our and all true Churches to the Tents of Shem , & the assemblies of the Church of England ( whither now he is returned ) to the Tents of Corah , Dathan , & Abiram . What remayneth therefore but that according to the words of his owne mouth and course of his own walking he be left to the Lord the iealous God that judged Corah & his cōpany ? Who also is the God of Shem , & will performe to the sōnes of Iapheth whō he perswadeth to dwell in Shems tents , according to his promise made of old to Abraham sonne of Shem , & Father of the faithfull of all nations , saying , I will blesse them that blesse thee , and curse them that curse thee . Gen. 12.3 . For that which he annexeth about fatherles children , himself knoweth we approve no such dealing . And some of the persons to whom they were comitted are departed this life . The living belike could not serve his turne : but he will digge into the graves of the dead . who cannot answer for themselves . Or if he meane of any that are alive , why gave he not ( after his maner ) some knowledg who they be ? Would he not that the matter should have ben considered and answer made accordingly ? Or would he that we should speake what we heare concerning a fatherles child . who was long since with that woman who is now this Whites wife , and ran away from her : who knoweth best her self how she vsed her ? For our selues we mislike all hard and evill vsage of any , much more savage and cruell dealing to fatherles children , who ought most of all to be pityed and holpen . If any such have more specially felt their part of our common troubles and poverty , why will he not consider his Lords the Prelates their savage and cruell dealing with vs , who have made many poore orphanes and widowes among vs , besides many other great calamities brought vpon vs by their meanes ? Of which to begin to speak were to enter into an Ocean sea : so many and great they are ▪ and not vnknowen to this White himself : howsoever he can like now to sayle in that sea , where putting away a good conscience , he hath concerning the faith made shipwrack . For that which he saith of W.C. the man himself affirmeth that be spake not these words at all which he hath printed of him : and that he told this Whites wife before the book was published , and spake it synce to his owne face , that it is a lye . Some words he confesseth he spake which were evill : but those also spoken by him about a yeare before he ioyned to the Church , as himself testifyeth . Yet White obiecteth his speach as the confession of our own members , affirming also what he hath printed to be spoken before many witnesses . Which if it were , yet till we should know it , & after knowledg & dealing with him find him obstinate in such evill , how could we but have him still a member among vs ? But if such speaches , yea or publick writings , of the members of the Church of England would content men , as White will with this content himself , how easy were it for his one to to produce a thousand , and none of them perverted neyther ? The conclusion of his Libell , is like the rest . The censures of Christ in his Church , he blasphemously calleth our fond excommunications . which † before in like manner he termed our Buls of excōmunications . Suerly God that will not hold him guiltles that taketh his Name in vaine , will never suffer such prophanation of his Name and ordinance to go in vaine . Such de●iding and despising of the Lord and his ordinances is fearfull . And a fearfull thing it is to fall into the hands of the living God. All his Lords the Prelates authority and authorizing of his book to be published ( as himself alledged here before the Magistrates ) will not help him before the Lord , who is a consuming fier . From whom what can he or any so persisting look for els , but to be cast out from his presence , and to have their portion among the cursed to heare that fearfull sentence , Go ye cursed into everlasting fier , which is prepared for the Divell and his Angels . Mat. 25.41 . And thus hath this Esau shewed himself to be one of those prophane , of whom he speaketh here , hardened in his sinne and prophanenes , and of which also he spake in the Preface at the beginning of his book : That in him might be seen the truth of that which Salomō saith , The lippes of a foole devoure himself : The beginning of the words of his mouth is foolishnes , and the latter end of his mouth is wicked madnes : & that thus also it might appeare , how far he is frō being of the Israel of God , that follow peace and holynes , without which no man shall see the Lord. Heb. 12.14 . TOwching his postscript about T. C. the man himself saith he is falsely traduced by him , as he was likewise accused by some other here to Magistrates for the same thing , who could not prove it against him , when the matter came to be examined . And see here still the bad dealing of this man , who publisheth his name in this manner to the world , onely vpon an hear-say , not knowing whether the thing were true or false , and then also when he heard withall that he had greatly bewayled his sinne , and had not afterward given him any iust or needfull cause so to do . For the casting of him out , it was thought meet and good , considering his former dealing & the present case , so to proceed : yet not without differēce of judgment in some of vs thereabout . But he was shortly after received in againe , being repentant for his sinne . Now here let the Reader observe , how this man which blameth others for not forgiving of penitent sinners , hath not ceased throughout his book to publish and object the sinnes of such against the whole Church and the parties themselves : besides the manifold falsehoods and blasphemies into which also he is ●un . But his madnes is become manifest to men , and his judgement sleepeth not with God : who will remember and reward him according to his workes . Nehem. 6.14 . 2 Tim. 4.14 . A note of the particulars ( spoken of before , pag. 62. ) wherein we differ from the Dutch and French Churches of this city , & wherabout we have had dealing with such of their Ministers as by the rest of their Eldership were deputed therevnto . 1. THat the estate of the Dutch Church of Amst. is such , as being one , yet it meeteth in three severall places : whereby it commeth to passe that the whole Church cannot come together in one : the Ministers cannot together with the flock sanctify the Lords day : the presence of the members of the Church cannot certainly be knowen : and finally , no publick action , whether excommunication or any other , can rightly be performed . Which is contrary to these Scriptures , 1 Cor. 12.27 . & 11.20 , 23. Math. 18 , 17. with 1 Cor. 5 , 4. Act. 6.2 , 5. Numb . 8.9 . Act. 20.28 . 2. They baptize the seed of them who are no members of any visible Church : of whom moreover they haue not care as of mēbers , neyther admit their parēts to the Lords Supper . Gen. 17.7 , 9 , 10 , 11. 1 Cor. 7.14 . Exod. 12.48 . with 2 Chron. 30.6 . &c. Numb . 9.13 . Hos. 2.2.4 . with Rev. 17.1 . Ezech. 16.59 . &c. 3. In the publick worship of God , they have devised & vse an other forme of prayer , besides that which Christ our Lord hath prescribed Mat. 6. reading out of a book certaine prayers invented and imposed by man. Exod. 20.4.5 . and 30.9 . with Psal. 141.2 . and Rev. 8.3 . Lev. 10.1 . Esa. 29.13 . with Math. 15.9 . Rom. 8.26 . Eph. 4.8 . 1 Pet. 2.5 . 4. That rule and commaundement of Christ , 18.15.16.17 . they neither obserue nor suffer rightly to be observed among them . 5. They worship God in the Idol-temples of Antichrist . Exod. 20.4 . with Deut. 12.2.3 . 2 18.11.12 . &c. 6 The Ministers have their set maintenance after an other maner then Christ hath ordeined , 1 Cor. 9.14 . And that also such , as by which any Ministery at all , whether popish or other whatsoever , might be mainteyned . 7. Their Elders chaunge yearely , and do not continew in their office according to the doctrine of the Apostles and practise of the primitive Churches . Rom. 12.4.5.6.7.8 . 1 Cor. 12.11.12 . &c. Act 20.17.28 . 1 5.1.2 . 3.4 . See also Numb . 8.24 . &c. 8. They celebrate Mariage in the Church , as if it were a part of the Ecclesiasticall administration , whereas it is in the nature of it meerly civill . Ruth . 4. chap. Heb. 13.4 . 1 Cor. 7.2 . 9. They vse a new censure of Suspensiō , which Christ hath not appointed . Math. 28.20 . Gal. 3.15 . 2 Tim. 3.16.17 . 10. They observe dayes and tymes , consecrating certyan dayes in the yeare , to the Nativity , Resurrection , Ascension of Christ , &c. Exod. 20. Commaundement , 2. & 4. Rev. 1.10 . 1 Cor. 10.1 . ● . Act. 20.7 . Col. 2.16.17 . Esa . 66.23 . Gal. 4.10.11 . 11. They receive vnrepentant excommunicates , to be members of their Church : which by this meanes becommeth one body with such as be delivered vnto Sathan . 1 Cor. 5.5 . 1 Tim. 1.20 . About this matter we had dealing with them divers tymes heretofore . And we desired that knowledg thereof might by themselves be givē to the whole body of their Church , or that they would take order that it might be done by vs. But they refused both . Whereabout we had afterward some further dealing with them . In which time , divers messages and answers passed between vs. Which we had thought here to have inserted : but now think good for the present to forbeare them : Wishing rather that they might be buried amōg themselves by amendement hereafter , then that we should be constreyned eyther by themselves or others ( as we are already too much provoked ) to publish them to the world , for the further manifestation and clearing of our cause and maner of dealing with them . The cautions ( spoken of before , pag. 34. & 68. ) concerning the question following . Question . Whether such as sometimes have fallen from the truth , may afterward by the Church be taken into office . Answer . We take it not to be meet , without these and the like cautious : viz. FIrst that there be due consideration had both of the nature of the thing , and of the quality of the persons , and also of the estate of the Church . For the nature of the thing , 1. Whether it be from the trueth to the Idolatry of the heathen , or to some false Christian worship : And here further , whether to the Papists , Anabaptists , Lutherans , or other Protestants professing reformation in sundry things , & those of great moment &c. 2. Whether at the first appearing & receiving of the truth , or when the adversaries haue ben soundly & throughly convinced . 3. Whether in dispersion and absence from the Church , or living and remayning with it . 4. Whether drawen , circumvented , & overcome by others ( as Aharon , and some of the Galatians , Exod. 32.1.23.35 . Gal. 1.6 . ) or drawing , intising & seducing of others ( as they of whom we read Ezech. 44.12 . Deut. 13.5.6.12.13 . ) Such as now also be they which publish writings against the trueth , the Church , &c. 5. Whether they did voluntarily yeeld of themselves , or fainted being broken with troubles and persecutions . 6. Whether they joyned themselves as members , or were present onely at their worship . 7 , Whether ( being ioyned as members ) they did partake onely , or did administer also and execute their worship themselves . 8. Whether slipping aside for a tyme through infirmity , or falling away long & resisting the meanes offred for their recovery , or labouring ( what they could ) to chaunge or abolish the true religion & worship of God. 9. Lastly , whether before or after the Church hath discussed and agreed what to do in this matter . For the quality of the persons , 1. Whether they were in office before or not . 2. VVhether they be fit for office , or not . Els what blot should they beare in this behalf who for their sundry defects are altogether vnfit , & therefore never to be taken into office , though they never had fallen from the trueth ? As they of Aharons seed , who had a blemish in their body , might never be Priests , though they did neuer fall to Idolatry . Lev. 21.17 . &c. For the estate of the Church , 1. VVhether it were but newly and weakly entred into the faith and way of Christ , or had ben long and well established therein . 2. VVhether as yet it were vnsetled and tossed hither and thither , to and fro , or were setled and well together . 3. Whether it haue great and present need of some to be taken into office . 4. VVhether it have others in all respects , as fit to be chosen . As Paul when he refused Iohn Mark , had Silas , whome he chose to take with him , Act. 15.25.26.27.32.38.40 . Secondly , that the Church do well know or trie such as have so fallē , afore they do afterward entertayn them into office . As Paul may be noted to haue done with Mark , whom yet Barnabas did sooner receive , as being his sisters sonne , well knowen vnto him before . Col. 4.10 . & 2 Tim. 4.11 . with Act. 15.38.39 . Finally , that none be contentious , but that all of vs duly considering the former cautions and the like , we take the fittest whom God in this estate of the Church doth offer , endeavouring to keep the vnity of the spirit in the bond of peace , that we may with love and comfort proceed in that wherevnto we are come : to the prayse of God , and to the further building & vpholding of the whole Church & of * all the members thereof in the trueth of the Gospell of Iesus Christ. 1 Cor. 11.16 . Ephe. 4.2.3 . Phil. 3.15.16 . Gal. 6.16 . This for the present , so to be mynded & observed , as if others shall at any tyme shew vs better from the word of God , we be alway ready to receive it in the Lord. An Answer to the Reasons alledged to prove the vse of the Lords prayer as a Prayer . Objection . 1. AN expresse commaundement neither contrary to nature , nor analogie of Faith , and agreable also to the drift and tenour of the place , ought litterally to be vnderstood and obeyed . But this Math. 6.9 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 &c. And Luk. 11.2 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , say , Our Father , &c. is such an expresse cōmaundement &c. Ergo It is also so to be vnderstood and vsed . Answer . 1. This reason was alledged before : Where see what is answered vnto it . pag. 30. 2. The Assumption or second part of the reason is but barely affirmed , not proved at all . 3. How is it agreable to the nature of prayer and analogy of faith , that one man or Church at any time should so pray , as asking all things that ever any in the world haue needed or shall need vpon any occasion whatsoever ? Or that we now should offer such prayer and worship vnto God , as we cannot have assurance by the Scriptures , that ever the Apostles or other Christians approved of God did so vse at any time ? Or to keep alwayes a set forme of words for our prayer to God ? 4. How is it agreable to the drift and tenour of the place , that Christ did so commaund it to be vsed as he pretendeth ? 1. For then it should be sinne to pray at any time , and not to say it , seing Christ hath thus given his commaundement concerning it , Luk. 11.2 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . &c. When ye pray , say , Our father &c. 2. And thus also we should be bound to say it twise over together at everie time we vse it : because Mathew and Luke in some words and clauses recorded it diversly : And who can say we ought to vse the words of the one more then of the other ? 3. But both * the cōmaundement it self , and the circumstances about it noted in the Evangelists , shew it to be given for a rule of prayer ; and therefore so to vse it , is that which is agreable to the tenour and drift of the place : As we haue heretofore shewed in ‡ divers Treatises yet vnanswered . 5. By literall vnderstanding of Christs words in the same sermon , do the Anabaptists gather , that it is vnlawfull for Christiās to take an oth , to go to warre , to beare Magistracy &c. pleading the expresse words and commaundement of Christ. Math. 5.34.39 . &c. with many other pretences which they have thereabout . Shall we therefore admit of their errors , or vnderstand those Scriptures , as they would have vs ? Not to speak of other as expresse speaches , or any collections thereabout : As Mat. 6.17 . Ioh. 13.5.12.14.15 . Objection . 2. 2. If Christ had taught onely to pray to this effect , then had he taught nothing but that which Iohns Disciples & all the faithfull practised before : for the Prayers of the Saints , as of Salomon , Nehemiah , Daniel , were to that effect before . Answer . 1. What if all this be graunted ? What would follow therevpon ? Doth not christ in the same sermō of his , teach the very same things that Moses in effect had taught before ? But now by reason of the false gloses of the Pharisees , he explaned them , according to their true meaning . Math. 5.17 . &c. 2. In like maner there being great abuse about prayer , as is particularlie noted by Mathew , Christ sheweth them how to vse it aright . Math. 6.5.6.7 . &c. 3. If he meane , that the prayers of the holy men in former tymes were of such things as here be cōprised , it is true , that they thē prayed to this effect : But if he meane that they prayed with like intendement and in like manner as Christ now taught the Apostles and Christians hereafter to do , he is deceived . For in their prayers they intended and looked at Christ to come , they prayed that God would send him according to his promise , that he might performe the things spoken concerning him , &c. But now Christ directed all hereafter to pray in his Name , as being come and exhibited according to the promises that went before concerning him . Ioh. 14.13.14 . & 16.23.24 . 4. The purpose of Christ in giving this forme of Prayer , was not onely to teach to pray to this effect , but to give direction also concerning all other things that are needfull to be knowen and observed in the right vse of prayer . As in other books already published we have shewed in divers particulars . Objection . 3. Whatsoever Scripture hath in every respect the forme of prayer , that is ●ot alone matter of Doctrine , but hath bene vsed also as Prayer . But this Scripture Math. 6.9 . hath in every respect the forme of prayer : as , Our Father , give vs , leade vs , and amen , annexed in the end : ergo . And in deed how can they tell , which were prayers and which not , if not by their forme of Petition ? whereby they are distinguished from Doctrines , and rules proposed in an other forme , as Mat. 7.7 . & 21.22 . 1 Ioh. 5.14 . Answer . 1. The Proposition or first part of the reason needeth proof : if he speak of the vse of the very words , as they are set downe . But if he speak onely of praying for such things to such end and in such maner as is recorded , then we graunt it : and he speaketh nothing against vs , but fighteth with his owne shadow . 2. For some instances herein , let these Scriptures be considered , Ier. 31.7 . Hos. 14.3.4 . Ioel. 2.17 . which haue in every respect the forme of prayer , and yet were given to be directions of the matter and maner of the prayers which then they should make , and not to prescribe thē the very words which they should vse . As likewise in this particular of Mat. 6.9 — 13. compared with Luk. 11.2.3 , 4. 3. For the Assumption or second part of the reason , that it is propounded in forme of prayer , see the answer before : pag. 31. And let them now at length tell vs , if it were so to be vsed as they say , whether we should follow Mathew or Luke therein , and whether we should at the end thereof vse the conclusion , and say Amen , or not : seing Mathew hath it so , and Luke not . 4. The very propounding of it in forme of Petition conteyneth in it great and needfull Doctrine for the right vse of Prayer . Of which also see before , pag , 31. 5 The Scriptures and rules of Prayer here mentioned by himself ( Mat. 7.7 . and 21.22 . 1 Ioh. 5.14 . ) shew that neither Christ intended , nor the Apostles vnderstood it so , that those very words ( as they are set downe ) should be our prayer vnto God. For which observe these clauses , Aske , seek , knock : As a sonne asketh of h●● father bread , or fish &c. Mat. 7.7 — 11. Whatsoever ye aske , &c. Mat. 21.22 . If we aske any thing according to his will &c. 1 Ioh. 5.14 . Thincketh he , when Christ commended vnto vs the needfull , carefull , and fervent vse of prayer saying , Aske , seek , knock &c. that his meaning was , Get by rote and say over , Our father which art in heaven , &c. Or is the saying of these words , prayer to God , as when a child being hungry commeth to his father and asketh bread , or having bread asketh fish or other food according to his need ? Or why did Christ vse such a generall clause , Whatsoever ye aske : and Iohn , If we aske any thing according to his will &c. if they had meant we should for our prayer vse that forme spoken of , wherein they knew are conteyned all things that can possibly be asked according to the will of God ? Or should we therefore vse these words onely for our prayers , and no other at all ? But of this question we have written other where already : Which may suffice , till we be answered . Objection . 4. 4. In a duty to be vsed of all , the holy Ghost is playne : but if those very words are not to be vsed as Prayer , no Christian for 1500. year●s & more , did ever vnderstand our Lords meaning . Answer . 1 Salomon answereth , relating the words of Christ , that they are all plaine to him that will vnderstand , and streight to them that will find knowleledge . Prov. 8.9 . 2. In the duties ●o be vsed of all , about the Sacraments , &c. the holy Ghost is plaine : yet have Christians swarved from our Lords meaning therabout , as long since as he speaketh of : yea even in the Apostles times they began in divers things to go astray therefrom , as any that is acquainted with the Scriptures may perceive . 3. If erroneous pleading frō former times , without scripture , were proof sufficient , how many and great errors might be pleaded for ? As the Antichristians do , for a multitude of their heresies and abhominations , which I will not stand here to particulate . 4. See also what is answered before , when to like purpose he alledged Tertullians testimonie , pag. 23. &c. Exception . 1. But they say that the Apostles never vsed those very words in prayer . I answer : 1. An expresse commaundement is warrant sufficient without example . Answer . He taketh for graunted that which he should prove , namely , that there is an expresse commaundement so to vse it as he pretendeth . Of which point we haue spoken before . And let the Reader observe , how he cannot shew by any Scripture at all , that the Apostles vsed those words for their prayer at any time . Neyther can he deny , but they vnderstood it aright , and prayed according to the true meaning thereof . Exception . 2. 2. There is no example in the whole book of Gen. of the observation of the Sabaoth for 2369. yeares space after the institution of it . Gen. 2. Neither to come nearer , is there any example of baptising , in the name of the Father , Sonne , and holy Ghost , yet is the commaundement of Christ sufficient warrant so to do . Compare Math. 28.19 . with Act. 10.48 . & 19.5 . Answer . What a reason is this ? As if we thought nothing were observed of old , whereof there is not mention in the history ; or as if no difference were to be put in the vnderstanding of the Scriptures , but that if one be vnderstood litterally , then must all other likewise . He might aswell have told vs , we read not in the Scriptures that Methuselah did ever eat any meat , and yet lived 969 yeares , the longest of any that are mentioned in the storie . And for the Apostles and others at that time administring Baptisme , how plaine is it in the Scriptures cited by himself , that they baptised in the Name of the Lord , as they were appointed ? If he could shew but in generall termes , that the Apostles at any time when they prayed , sayd over the Lords prayer : though it be not written in particular that they said , Our father which art in heaven &c. there were some proportion in his maner of reason , which now is not . Besides , the Apostles and Evangelists themselves recording the institution and vse of the Lords supper , observe not the same words alike , yet all of them agree in the same matter and substance ? Mat. 26.26.27.28 . Mark. 14.22.23.24 . Luk. 22.19.20 . 1 Cor. 11.24.25 . And why should we not think likewise of their administration of Baptism● , that it was according to th● cōmaundement of Christ , though the same particular words be not rehearsed ? Or how can any make question of it , when it is recorded that they baptised ( not in their owne name , but ) in the Name of the Lord : Act. 2 , 38.41 . & 10.48 . Rom. 6 , 3. 1 Cor. 1.13.15 . Gal. 3.27 . with Mat. 28.19 . And so by their example have taught vs how to vnderstand and vs● these things aright ? Exception . 3. 3. It is the Anabaptists reasoning against childrens baptisme , asking for an example , when otherwise there is sufficient warrant so to do : yet are their Pretences as good or better then Mr Iohnsons in refusing obedience to our Lords commaundement for want of an example . Answer . A childish collection frō the Anabaptists errour about children● baptisme . How often shall we speak it , that other sufficient warrant from the Scriptures , is as good as a thousand examples ? And why will he needs shew himself to be like the Anabaptists : who would bring in a worship of God , for which there cannot be shewed sufficient warrant eyther by precept , or by example , or sound collection from the Scriptures ; and so by consequence in tyme deprive the Church of that true worship of God which we are taught both by commaundement and by example and by vnanswerable reasons drawen out of the word of God ? Wherein the very experience of former tymes so extreemly corrupted in this exercise of prayer , might and ought to teach vs to be more carefull . For administring the seale of Gods covenant , and sacrament of i●itiation , & consequently of Baptisme , vnto children being the seed of the faithfull , we have both precept , example , and vndeniable reasons out of the word of God : which I will not here stand to relate . If our reasons towching the vse of the forme of Prayer spoken of , be so weak as he pretendeth , why did he not vndertake to answer them : but chuse rather to insist vpō the Pretences which now he hath purposelie published concerning that Argument ? And why will he never leave begging of that which he should prove , that i● 〈◊〉 our Lords commaundement to say over the very words prescribed , Mat. 6. ● Luk 11. for our prayer vnto God ? Exception . 4. 4. The Prayers mencioned in the new Testament , are such as 〈◊〉 powred forth vpon speciall occasion , as Act. 4.24 . Ioh. 17. Answer . An absurd pretence : and such as wherein he is against himself , yeelding that the Lords prayer is not to be vsed vpon speciall occasion : or els he speaketh nothing to the purpose . And if it teach vs not how to pray vpō speciall occasion , how is it a perfect directiō ? Or if it do , & yet be not in such case to be vsed , how plain is it that Christs meaning & the Apostles vnderstanding of it was such as not to prescribe it for our prayer , but for our instruction and direction therein ? Againe Christ saith , When ye pray , say , Our father &c. therefore also vpon speciall occasion , if that were his meaning , as he would perswade . Not to speak how themselves commonly hold and give out that it is such as is fit to be vsed at all tymes and for all occasions . So well they agree together . But why doth he cite here , Ioh. 17. wherein Christs prayer a little before his death is mentioned ? Is it to shew that though Christ did not then vse it , praying vpon speciall occasion , yet at other times he did ? If this b● his intendement , who will believe him that Christ who had no sinn , could aske forgivenes of sinne , as in that forme of prayer is prescribed ? If this be not his meaning , to what purpose is that Scripture alledged , vnles it be to reason against himself , & to shew still his owne foolishnes ? Exception . 5. 5 Let them shew me an example where ever the Apostles prayed before their Sermons ; if they can . Answer . 1. Have they not read what is written of the Apostles , Act. 6.4 . how they said to the brethren at Ierusalem , Look ye out men whom we may appoint to this busines ( of the Deacons office ) : And we will give our selves continually to prayer and to the ministration of the word ? Nor how the Apostle Paul gave direction concerning publick prayer , when he wrote to the Churches and to Timothee about publik doctrine , whether it were in propheticall or ministeriall vse of the word of God. 1 Cor. 11.4 . and 14. chap. 1 Tim. 1. and 2. chap. Or when Paul taught Timothee that the food of the body is to be sanctified vnto vs by prayer , should he not think likewise of the food of the soule ? 2. And what though the particular circūstance of time ( before , or after ) be not set down ? Or that the Apostles having to deale with severall sorts of persons & occasions , did diversly cary themselves according therevnto ? 3. Or doth it not ly vpon the Ministers in publik , to be aswell the mouth of the Church vnto God in prayer , as to be the mouth of God to the Church in doctrine ? Or should we think that the Apostles did not carefully performe the whole worke of the Ministery committed vnto them ? 4. Finally , let these men shew vs an example in the Apostles or Primitive Churches , where ever they said their prayers over by tote ; or vsed a book of Common prayer among them ; or read any prayers at all for their prayer to God ; or had Archbishops , Lordbishops , Archdeacons , Priests , Parsons , Vicars , &c. eyther for vse of prayer , or for any other service Ministery or government of the Churches of Christ. Finis . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A04541-e100 Gen. 25.33.34 . Heb. 12.16 . Whites Discov . pag. 4. Ignorance . * Mr Sedg . to Mr Pow. Falsehood . Mr ●● . Violence . Whites Discov . pag. 20. Whites Discov . pag. 6. Pro. 26.26 . Prov. 18.17 . Pro. 26.5 . Prov. 26.4 . Prov. 18.2 . Micah . 7.8.9.10 . Notes for div A04541-e1820 (a) Wh. Discovery . pag. 5· * Act. 24.5 . & 28.22 . Mat. 18.15 17.18.22 . Luke 17.4 . 1 Cor. 5.1.4.5.11.12.13 . Esa. 16.4 . Psal. 103.6 Psal. 9.18 . * Besides the Ministery of the vvord . * Since altered , as himself knoweth . b And this also with consent of the Church then signified . c Ansvv. to Mr A. H. pag. 62. * To I.L. in his ovvn hearing . d Ansvv. to Mr H. Ia. p. 17 4. * Tremell . and Iun. on Exod. 2.23 1 Cor. 1● . Pro. 12.13 . * Lib. de Monogam . Tertul. lib. de Orat. * Tertull. Lib. de orat . a Lib. de praescript . aduersus haeret . b Lib. de virgin . veland . Confess . with Mr Iun. letters pag. 54. * pag 23. Mr R. Ia. * Whites disco . p. 7. in the margent . A.P. At Northampton . ‡ Whites discov . pag 26. Contra Marcion . lib. 4. c. 5. Lib. de Orat . ‡ Yet resting with peace in their difference of iudgment therabout . * 1 Cor. 6.16 . * Mat. 19. † 1 Cor. 6.9.11 . ‡ Of this , I think my self haue had speach with this Th. White heretofore howsoever now he write as if he had never heard it of any of vs. A true descript . of a visible Church . * Num. 12.3 . Ps. 106.33 . Deut. 5.32 1 Tim. 5.21 . Mat. 10.37 . † The Prelate of Lond. &c. Gen. 29. & 30. & 31. & 34. Gen. 34. & 35. & 37. & 38. chap. Epist. to he Corinhians . 2 Cor. 11.13.14.15 . Answ. to Mr , H. I. p. 14. &c. Pro. 11 , 9 , Confess . with Mr Iun. letters . pag. 54. And that we might & would , if he did thus . W. Simson . Apologie . Discovery . Refutatiō . Questions . Answer to Mr H. &c. 1 Cor. 10.18 . Act. 15. Rom. 14. Phil. 3.16 . A Discourse of certaine troubles & excom . &c. Confess . with Mr Iun. letters . Pag. 54. Nehem. 6.8 . Prov. 24.28 . ‡ In these countreyes , being from the Church vpon occasion . † But afterward I did speak more to him here about , as he may remēber . ‡ Smyrn● Philadelphia &c. † Corinth . Galat. Pergamu● &c. And these were in deed the causes that made vs think more and otherwise of this matter , thē we had done . Which we also shewed in the Church . ‡ 2 Tim. 1.5 . and 3.14.15 . and 1 Tim. 4.6.12 . with Act. 16. & 17. & 18. & 19. & 20. chap. † Ephe. 4.11 . Rom. 12.7 . A●t . 5.29 . Prov. 26.2 Psal. 109.17.18 . Numb . 16. Gen. 9.29.27 . † Whites Discov . p. 24. Prov. 11.21 . Eccles. 10.12.13 . Notes for div A04541-e14090 * Aswell those that have fallen as the rest . Notes for div A04541-e14510 * Mat. 6.9 . ‡ Apologie . Discovery . Questions . Answ : to Mr H. &c. See also Iob 22.17 . Esa. 44.17 . Ier. 2.27 . Hab. 2.19 . 1 Cor. 11.20 . &c. Gen. 5. 2 Tim. 4.4.5 . 
A02522	----	A common apologie of the Church of England against the vniust challenges of the ouer-iust sect, commonly called Brownists. Wherein the grounds and defences, of the separation are largely discussed: occasioned, by a late pamphlet published vnder the name, of an answer to a censorious epistle, which the reader shall finde in the margent. By I.H. Hall, Joseph, 1574-1656. 1610 Approx. 299 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 80 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2004-08 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A02522 STC 12649 ESTC S103653 99839402 99839402 3818 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A02522) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 3818) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1475-1640 ; 1103:18) A common apologie of the Church of England against the vniust challenges of the ouer-iust sect, commonly called Brownists. Wherein the grounds and defences, of the separation are largely discussed: occasioned, by a late pamphlet published vnder the name, of an answer to a censorious epistle, which the reader shall finde in the margent. By I.H. Hall, Joseph, 1574-1656. Robinson, John, 1575?-1625. Answer to a censorious epistle. [6], 145, [5] p. Printed [by William Stansby] for Samuel Macham, and are to be sold at his shop in Pauls Church-yard, at the signe of the Bull-Head, London : 1610. Dedication signed: Ios. Hall. A reprinting of and reply to: "An answer to a censorious epistle" by John Robinson, the separate printing of which has not survived. Printer's name from STC. With two final contents leaves. Running title reads: An apologie against Brownists. A variant of the 1610 edition with "for Eleazer Edgar" in the imprint. Reproduction of the original in the Yale University. Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. EEBO-TCP is a partnership between the Universities of Michigan and Oxford and the publisher ProQuest to create accurately transcribed and encoded texts based on the image sets published by ProQuest via their Early English Books Online (EEBO) database (http://eebo.chadwyck.com). 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Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Robinson, John, 1575?-1625. -- Answer to a censorious epistle. Church of England -- Controversial literature. Brownists -- Early works to 1800. 2004-04 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-05 Aptara Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2004-06 Emma (Leeson) Huber Sampled and proofread 2004-06 Emma (Leeson) Huber Text and markup reviewed and edited 2004-07 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A COMMON APOLOGIE OF THE CHVRCH OF ENGLAND : Against the vniust Challenges of the ouer-iust Sect , commonly called Brownists . Wherein the grounds and Defences , of the Separation are largely discussed : OCCASIONED , BY A Late Pamphlet published vnder the name , Of an Answer to a Censorious Epistle , Which the Reader shall finde in the Margent . By I. H. LONDON Printed for Samuel Macham , and are to be sold at his Shop in Pauls Church-yard , at the Signe of the Bull-head . 1610. TO OVR GRATIOVS AND BLESsed Mother , the Church of ENGLAND . THE MEANEST OF HER Children Dedicates this her Apology , and wisheth all Peace and Happines . NO lesse then a yeare and a halfe is past ( Reuerend , Deare , and holy Mother ) since I wrote a louing monitory letter to two of thine vnworthy Sons ; which ( I heard ) were fled from thee in person , in affection , and somewhat in opinion : Supposing them yet thine in the maine substance , though in some circumstances their owne . Since which , one of them hath wash't of thy Font-water as vnclean , and hath written desperately both against thee , and his owne fellowes : From the other , I receiued ( not two moneths since ) a stomakful Pamphlet ; besides the priuate iniuries to the monitor , casting vpon thine honourable name blasphemos imputations of Apostasie , Antichristianisme , Whoordome , Rebellion : Mine owne wronges I could haue contemned in silence , but , For Sions sake , I cannot hold my peace : If I remember not thee , O Ierusalem , let my tongue cleaue to the roofe of my mouth . It were a shame , and sinne for me , that myzeale should be lesse hote for thine innocency , then theirs to thy false disgrace . How haue I hastened therefore to let the world see thy sincere truth , and their peruerse slanders . Vnto thy sacred name then ( whereto I haue in all piety deuoted my selfe ) I humbly present this my speedy and dutifull labour : whereby I hope thy weak Sonnes may be confirmed , the strong encouraged , the rebellious shamed : And if any shall still obstinately accurse thee , I referre their reuenge vnto thy Glorious Head , who hath espoused thee to himselfe , in trueth and righteousnesse : Let him whose thou art , right thee : In the meane time , we thy true sonnes , shall not onely defend , but magnifie thee : Thou maiest be blacke , but thou art comely : the Daughters haue seene thee , and counted thee blessed ; euen the Queene , and the Concubines , and they haue praised thee : thou art thy Welbelouedst , and his desire is towards thee : So let it be , and so let thine be towards him for euer ; and mine towards you both , who am the least of all thy little ones , IOS . HALL . A COMMON Apologie against the Brownists . SECTION . I. The entrance into the worke . IF Truth and peace ( Zacharyes two companions ) had met in our loue , this Controuersie had neuer beene ; the seuering of these two hath caused this separation ; for while some vnquiet mindes haue sought Trueth without Peace , they haue at once lost Truth , Peace , Loue , vs and themselues . God knowes how vnwillingly I put my hand to this vnkind quarrell : Nothng so much abates the courage of a Christian , as to call his brother aduersary : We must doe it ; woe to the men by whom this offence commeth : Yet by how much the insultation of a brotherly enemy is more intollerable , and the griefe of our blessed mother greater , for the wrong of her owne ; So much more cause I see to breake this silence : If they will haue the last words , they may not haue all . For our carriage to them : They say , when Fire the God of the Chaldees had deuoured all the other wooden Deities , that Canopis set vpon him a Caldron full of water , whose bottome was deuised with holes stop't with waxe , which no sooner felt the flame , but gaue way to the quenching of that furious Idoll . If the fire of inordinate zeale , conceite , contention haue consumed all other parts in the separation , and cast forth ( more then Nebuchadnezers furnace ) from their Amsterdam hither ; it were well if the waters of our moderation and reason could vanquish , yea abate it : This litle Hin of mine shall be spent that way : wee may trie and wish , but not hope it : The spirits of these men are too-well knowne , to admit any expectation of yeeldance : since yet , both for preuention and necessary defence this taske must be vndertaken , I craue nothing of my Reader but patience and iustice : of God , victory to the truth : as for fauour , I wish no more then an enemy would giue against himselfe : With this confidence I enter into these lifts , and turne my penne to an Aduersary , GOD knowes , whether more proud or weake . SECTION . II. The Answerers Preamble . IT is a hard thing euen for those which would seem sober minded men in cases of controuersie , to vse soberly the frownes and disaduantages of causes and times : whereby whiles men are dei●cted and troden downe , they vse to behold their opposites mounted on high , too repiningly , and not without desperate enuie : & so are oftentimes moued , to shoote vp at them as from below , the bitter arrowes of spightfull and splenish discourses , thinking any hatefull opposition sufficiently charitable , to oppugne those aduersaries , which haue them ( as they feele ) at so great an aduantage : vpon this impotent malitiousnesse , it commeth to passe that this aunswerer vndertaketh thus seuerely and peremptorily , to censure that charitable censure of ignorance , which ( as shall appeare in the sequell ) he either simply , or willingly vnderstood not : and to brand a deare Church of Christ with Apostacy , Rebellion , Antichristianisme : What can bee more easie then to returne accusations ? * Your Preamble ( with a graue bitternes ) charges me with 1. Presumption vpon aduantages , 2. Weake and weightlesse discourse , 3. Ignorance of the cause censured : It had beene madnesse in me to write , if I had not presumed vpon aduantages , but of the cause , of the truth , not of the times : Though ( blessed bee God ) the times fauour the truth , and vs : if you scorn them and their fauours , complaine not to be an vnderling : Thinke that the times are wiser , then to bestow their fauours vpon willfull aduersaries ; but in spight of times , you are not more vnder vs in estate , then in conceipt aboue vs : so wee say the Sunne is vnder a cloud , we know it is aboue it . * Would God ouerlinesse and contempt were not yours , euen to them which are mounted highest vpon best desert ; and now you that haue not learned sobrietie in iust disaduantages , taxe vs , not to vse soberly the aduantages of time : there was no gall in my penne , no insultation , I wrote to you as brethren , and wish't you companions : there was more danger of flattery in my stile , then bitternesse : wherein vsed I not my aduantages soberly ? Not in that I said too much , but not enough ; Not in that I was too sharpe , but not weighty enough ; My opposition was not too vehement , but too sleight and slender : So , strong Champions blame their aduersary , for striking too easily : you might haue forborne this fault , it was my fauour that I did not my worst : you are worthy of more weight , that complaine of ease . The discourse that I rol'd downe vpon you , was weake and weightlesse ; you shall well finde this was my lenitie , not my impotence . The fault hereof is partly in your expectation , not in my letter : I meant but a short Epistle , you look't belike for a volume , or nothing ; I meant onely a generall monition ; you look't for a solide prosecution of particulars : It is not for you to giue taskes to others pennes . By what Lawe must wee write , nothing but large Scholasticall Discourses ? Such Tomes as yours : May we not touch your sore vnlesse wee will launce , and search it ? I was not enough your enemie ; forgiue me this errour , and you shall smart more : But not onely my omissions were of ignorance , but my censures , though seuere and solemne : An easie imputation from so great a Controuler : I pardon you , and take this as the common lot of enemies . I neuer yet could see any Scribler so vnlearned , as that he durst not charge his opposite with ignorance ; If Dr. Whitaker , M. Perkins , M. Gyfford , and that Oracle of our present times , Dr. Andrewes , went away content with this liuerie from yours ; how can I repine ? If I haue censured what cause I knew not , let me bee censured for more then ignorance , impudencie : but if you know not what I censured ( let all my trust lie on this issue ) take both ignorance , boldnesse , and malice to your selfe : Is your cause so mysticall ▪ that you can feare any mans ignorance ? What Cobler or Spinster hath not heard of the maine holds of Brownisme ? Am I only a stranger in Hierusalem ? If I know not all your opinions , pardon me : Your owne haue not receiued this illumination ; I speake boldly , not your selfe ; Euery day brings new conceites , and not one day teaches , but corrects another , you must be more constant to your selues , ere you can vpbraide ignorance or auoide it : But whether I knew your prime fancies , appeares sufficiently by a particular discourse , which aboue a yeare since was in the hands of some of your Clients , and I wonder if not in yours : Shortly ; am I ignorant ? If I were obstinate too , you might hope ( with the next gale ) for me , your more equall aduersarie , at Amsterdam . As I am ; my want of care and skil , shal ( I hope ) loose nothing of the trueth by you , nor suffer any of your foule aspersions vpon the face of Gods Church and ours . But whiles we striue ; who shall be our Iudge ? The Christian Readers : who are those ? Presume not , yee more zealous and forward Countrey men , that you are admitted to this Bench : so farre are wee meere English , from being allowed Iudges of them ; that they haue already iudged vs to be no * Christians : We are Goates and Swine , no Sheepe of God : since then none but your Parlour in the West , and Amsterdam , must bee our Iudges , who ( I beseech you ) shall be our aduersaries ? God be iudge betwixt you and vs , and correct this your vnchristian vncharitablenesse . SECTION . III ▪ The parties written to , and their Crime . I Wrote not to you alone : what is become of your partner , yea , your guide ? Woe is me , he hath renounced our Christendome with our Church : and hath wash't of his former water , with new : and now condemnes you all , for not separating further , no lesse then we condemne you for separating so far . As if you could not be enough out of Babylon , vnlesse you be out of your selues . Alas miserable countrimen , whither runne you ? Religion hath but his height , beyond which is errour and madnesse : Hee telles you true , your station is vnsafe , either you must forward to him , or backe to vs. * I obiected separation to you : yet not so extreame as your answere bewrayes : a late separation , not the first ; my charity hoped you lesse ill , then you will needes deserue : you graunt it odious , because it casts imputation of euil vpon the forsaken : Of euill ? Yea of the worst , an estate incurable and desperate . He is an ill Phisitian that will leaue his patient vpon euery distemper , his departure argues the disease helpelesse ; were wee but faulty , as your Landlord Churches , your owne Rules would not abide your flight : Hence the Church of England iustly matches Separatists with the vilest persons : GOD himselfe doth so : who are more vile then Patrons of evill ? yet no greater woe , is to them that speake good of euill , then those that speake euill of good : So , wise Generalls punish mutinous persons , worse then Robbers or Adulterers : So Corah and his companie ( a Storie cunningly turned vpon vs by your Martyr ) for their opposition to Moses were more fearefully plagued then the Idolatrous Israelites : These sinnes are more directly against common societie , the other more personall : and if both haue like iniquitie : yet the former haue both more offence and more danger : And if not so , yet who cannot rather brooke a lewd● seruant , then an vnduetifull sonne , though pretending faire colours for his disobedience ? At least , you thinke the Church of England thinkes her selfe Gods Church , as wel as your Saints of Amsterdam : You that so accurse Apostacie in others , could yee expect shee should brooke it in you ? But your reasons are iust and well grounded : euery way of a man is right in his owne eyes : Said wee not well , that thou art a Samaritane , and hast a Diuell , say the Iewes ? What Schisme euer did not thinke well of it selfe ? For vs : wee call heauen and earth to record , your cause hath no more iustice then your selues haue charitie . SECTION . IIII. The kinds of separation , and which is iust . YEt there is a commendable and happie separation , from the world , from the Prince , and men of the world , and whatsoeuer is contrarie to God : who doubts it ? There were no heauen for vs without this , no Church ; which hath her name giuen by her father and husband of calling out from other . Out of the Egypt of the world dooth God call his sonnes : But this separation is into the visible Church from the world , not ( as yours ) out of the Church , because of some particular mixtures with the world : or ( if you had rather take it of profession ) out of the world of Pagans and Infidels , into the visible Church , not out of the world of true ( though ●aultie ) Christians into a purer Church . That I may here at once for all giue light to this point of separation : we finde in Scripture a separation either to good , or from euill : To good , so the Leuites were separated from among the children of Israel to beare the Arke , and to minister : so the first borne , first fruites , and Cities of refuge : So Paul was ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) separated , which some would haue allude to his Pharisaisme , but hath plaine reference to Gods owne words ( Act. 13. 2. ) separate me Barnabas and Saul : Though this is rather a destination to some worthy purpose , then a properly called separation . From euill , whither sinne or sinners : From sinne , so euery soule must eschew euill , whether of doctrine or manners , and disclaime all fellowship with the vnfruitfull workes of darknesse , whither in himselfe or others . So S. Paul charges vs to holde that which is good , and abstaine from all appearance of euill : so Ieremie is charged to separate the pretious ( doctrine or practise ) from the vile . From sinners , not onely practised by God himselfe ( to omit his eternall and secret Decree whereby the elect are separated from the Reprobate ) both in his gratious vocation , sequestring them from nature and sinne , as also in his execution of iudgment , whether particular , as of the Israelites from the Tabernacles of Corah , or Vniuersall , and finall , of the Sheepe from the Goates ; But also inioyned from God to men , in respect either of our affection , or of our yoake , and familiar society , whereof Saint Paul : Be not vnequally yoaked with Infidels , Come out from among them , and seperate your selues . In all this we agree : In the latitude of this last onely we differ : I finde you call for a double separation , A first separation in the gathering of the Church : A second , in the managing of it : The first at our entrance into the Church , the second in our continuance : the first of the Church , from Pagans & Worldlings , by an initiatory profession : The second of leud men from the Church by iust censures : You speake confusedly of your own separation , one while of both , another while of either single . For the first , either confesse it done by our Baptisme , or else you shall be forced to hold we must rebaptise : But of this Constitu●ine separation anone . For the second , of sinners , whether in iudgement or life , some are more grosse , haynous , incorrigible : others lesse notorious , and more tractable : those other must be separated by iust censures : not these : Which censures if they be neglected , the Church is foule and ( in your Pastors word ) faultie , and therefore calles for our teares , not for our flight . Now of Churches faulty and corrupted , some race the foundation , others , on the true foundation build Timber , hay , Stubble : Frō those we must separate , from these we may not . Peters is eternall , Whither shall we goe from thee , thou hast the wordes of eternall life : where these wordes are found , wo be to vs if we be not found . Amongst many good separations then , yours cannot be separated from euill , for that we should so farre separate from the euill , that therefore wee should separate from Gods children in the communion of the holy thinges of God , that for some ( after your worst done ) not fundamentall corruptions , wee should separate from that Church , in whose wombe we were conceiued , and from betwixt whose knees wee fell to God : in a word ( as one of yours once said ) to separate not only from visible euill , but from visible good , as all Antichristian : who but yours can thinke lesse then absurd and impious ? Grant we should be cleane separated from the world , yet if we be not , must you be separated from vs ? Doe but stay till God haue separated vs from himselfe : will the wise husbandman cast away his Corne-heape for the chaffe and dust ? Shall the Fisher cast away a good draught because his drag-net hath weedes ? Doth God separate from the faithfull soule , because it hath some corruptions , her Inmates , though not her commaunders ? Certainely , if you could throughly separate the world from you , you would neuer thus separate your selues from vs : Beginne at home , separate all selfe-loue , and selfe-will , and vncharitablenesse from your heart , and you cannot but ioyne with that Church , from which you haue separated : Your Doctor would perswade vs you separate from nothing but our corruptions : you are honester , and graunt it from our Church : it were happie for you , if he lied not : who in the next page confutes himselfe , shewing that you separate from vs , as Christ from the Samaritans , namely from the Church , not the corruptions only ; and not as hee did from the Iewes , namely from their corruptions , not from their Church : His memory saues our labour , and marres his Discourse . SECTION . V. The antiquity and examples of separation . YEt if not equity , it were well you could pleade age : This your separation in the nature and causes of it ( you say ) is no lesse auncient then the first institution of enmity betwixt the two seedes , you might haue gone a little higher , and haue said , then our first parents running from God in the Garden , or their separation from GOD by their sinne : But wee take your time , and easily beleeue that this your late separation was founded vpon that auncient enmity of the seede of the serpent , with the womans . That subtile Diuell when he saw the Church breath from the persecutions of Tyrants , vexed her no lesse with her owne diuisions : seeking that by fraude , which by violence he could not effect . Hence all the fearefull Schismes of the Church , whereof yours is part . This enm●ty hath not onely beene successiuely contiuued , but also too visibly manifested by the actuall ( but wilfull ) separation of heretickes and Sectaries from the Chuch in all ages : But I mistake you , yours is as auncient as the Gospel : What ? that Euangelium aeternum of the Friers ? whose name they accursedly borrowed from Reuel . 14. 6. Or that Euangelium regni of the Familists ? Or that Euangelium aliud , whereof Saint Paul taxeth his Galatians ? None of all these , you say ; but as that Gospell of Peace , of Truth , of Glory ; so auncient , and neuer knowne till Bolton , Barrow , and Browne ? Could it escape all the holy Prophets , Apostles , Doctors of the old , middle , and later world , and light onely vpon these your three Patriarchs ? Perhaps Nouatus or Donatus ( those Saints ) with their Schooles had some little glimpse of it ; but this perfection of knowledge is but late and new : So , many rich mines haue lien long vnknown , and great parts of the world haue been discouered by late Venturers . If this course haue come late to your knowledge and obedience , not so to others : For loe , it was practised successiuely in the constitution and collection of all t●ue Churches , through al times , before the law , vnder the law , after it : Wee haue acknowledged many separations : but as soone shall you finde the time past in the present , as your late separation , in the auncient and approued You quote Scriptures , though ( to your praise ) more dainty indeed then your fellowes . Who cannot doe so ? Who hath not ? Euen Sathan himselfe cytes the word against him which was the word of his Father . Let vs not number , but weigh your texts : The rather , for that I finde these as your Master-proofes , set as Challengers in euery of your defences : In Gen. 4. 13. Caine a bloody Fratricide is excommunicated : In Gen. 6. 1. 2. The sonnes of God married the daughters of men . In Gen. 7. 1. & 7. Noah is approued as righteous , and enters the Arke : In 1. Pet. 3. 20 , 21. The rest in Noahs time were disobedient , and perished : What of all this ? Alas , what mockage is this of the Reader , and Scriptures : Surely , you euen ioyne Scriptures , as you separate your selues : This is right as your Pastor , to proue all members of the visible Church , elect and pretious stones , cytes 1. K. 7. 9. where is speech only of Salomons house in the Forest of Lebanon , his Porch for his Throne , his Hall , his Pallace for Pharachs daughter , and when hee comes to describe the office of his imaginary doctor thwacks fourteene Scriptures into the margent , whereof not any one hath any iust colour of inference to his purpose : and in his discourse of the power of the Church ( that hee might seeme to honour his margent with shew of textes ) hath repeated sixe places twise ouer in the space of sixe lines . For these of yovrs : you might obiect the first to the Cainites not to vs : Cain was cast out worthily . Doe wee either denie , or vtterly forbeare this censure ? Take heed you follow him not in your voluntary exile to the land of Nod. The second you might obiect to those mungrell Christians that match with Turkes and Pagans . There are sonnes of God , that is , members of the visible Church , and daughters of men , which are without the bounds , meere Infidels ; it is sinne for those sonnes to yoake themselues with those daughters . What is this to vs ? Noah was righteous , the multitude disobedient : Who denies it ? yet Noah separated not from that corrupted Church till the flood separated him from the earth , but continued an auncient Preacher of righteousnesse , euen to that peruerse and rebellious generation . But it sufficeth you that Caine and the Giants were separated from the rest : We yeelde it : what will follow hence saue onely that notorious malefactors must be cast out , and professed Heathen not let into the Chruch ? VVe hold , and wish no lesse : your places euince no more . These , before the law : In Leuit. 20. 24. 26. God chose out Israel from other people : This was Gods act , not theirs : a sequestring of his Israelites from the Gentiles , not of Israel from it selfe : yours is your owne , and from men , in all maine points , of your owne profession : But therefore Israel must be holy : If any man denie holinesse to be required of euery Christian , let him feele your Maranatha . In Nehem. 9. 2. The Israelites separated themselues from the strangers , which were Infidels : whether in their marriage , or deuotion : Neither Gods seruice , nor an Israelites bedde was for Heathens . This was not the constituting of a new Church , but reforming of the olde : If therefore you can parallell vs with Pagans , and your selues will bee Iewes , this place fittes you . Lastly , what if there be an hatred betwixt the world & Christs true Disciples , Ioh. 17. 14. 16 ? what if Peter charged his auditors to saue themselues from the errours and practise of that froward generation , whose handes were yet freshly imbrued with the blood of Christ , Act. 2. 40. ? What if the same which Peter taught , Paul practised , in separating his followers from hearing some obstinate and blasphemous Iewes , Act. 19. 9 ? VVhat if the Church of Corinth , were Saints by calling , 1. Cor. 1. 2 ? and therfore must be separated from the yoake of Infidels , 2. Cor. 6. 17 ? Are these your patternes ? Are these fit matches for your brethren , baptized in the same water and name , professing euery point of the same true faith , vsing ( for substance ) the same worshippe with you ? Hee that saith he is in the light , and hateth his brother is in darkenesse , 1. Ioh. 2. 9. SECTION . VI. What separation is to be made by Churches in their planting , or restauration . BVT all these examples perhappes are not so much to warrant what you haue done , as to condemne the Church of England for what shee hath not done : for such a separation she neither hath made nor doth make , but standes actually one with all that part of the world within the kingdome without separation . Loe here the maine ground of this Schisme , which your Proto-Martyr Barrow hammers vpon in euery page ; an ill constitution : Thus he comments vpon your wordes : For where such prophane confuse multitudes without any exception , separation , or choice were all of them from publique idolatrie , at one instant receiued or rather compel'd to be members of the Church , in some parish or other , where they inhabited , without any due calling to the faith by the preaching of the Gospell going before , or orderly ioyning together in the faith , there being no voluntarie or particular confession of their owne faith and dueties made , or required of any , and lastly no holy walking in the faith amongst them : who can say that these Churches consisting of this people were euer rightly gathered or built , according to the rule of Christs Testament . In his words and yours I finde both a mis-collection , and a wronge charge . For the former : the want of noting one poore distinction breedes all this confusion of doctrine , and separation of men : for there is one case of a new Church to be called from Heathenisme to Christianity , another of a former Church to be reformed from errours , to more sincere Christianity ; In the first of these is required indeede a solemne initiation by Baptisme , and before that , a voluntarie and particular confession of faith , and therefore a cleare separation , and exception of the Christian , from the Infidell : In the latter neither is new Baptisme lawfull ( though some of you belike of olde were in hand with a rebaptization : which not then speeding , succeedeth now to your shame ) nor a new voluntary and particular confession of Faith besides that in Baptisme ( though very commendable ) will euer be prooued simply necessary to the being of a Church ; so long as the erring parties doe actually renounce their doctrines , and in open profession imbrace the truth ; and ( as generally in the publique confession ) so particularly vpon good occasion giue iust testimonies of their repentance : This is our case , we did not make a new Church , but mended an old : your Clifton is driuen to this hold by necessity of argument ; Otherwise he sees there is no auoiding of Anabaptisme : Mended , saith your Doctor , and yet admitted the miscelline rabble of the prophane ? Say now that such separation were not made : Let some few be holy , and the more part prophane : Shall the lewdnesse of some disanul Gods couenant with others ? This is your mercy ; Gods is more : who still held Israel for his , when but fewe held his pure seruice : Let that diuine Psalmist teach you how full the Tents of Israel were of mutinous rebels in the desert ; yet the piller by day & night forsooke them not ; and Moses was so farre from reiecting them ; that he would not indure God should reiect them to his owne aduantage : Looke into the blacke censures , and bitter complaints of all the Prophets , & wonder that they separated not : Looke into the increased masse of corruptions in that declined Church : whereof the blessed eyes of our Sauiour were witnesses , and maruell at his silent and sociable incuriousnesse : yea his charge of not separating ; yee knowe not of what spirite you are : Nowe you flye to constitution , as if notorious euils were more to tollerable in the continuance , then in the collection of assembles : Sar di had but a few names that had not defiled their garments ; God praises these , biddes them not separate from the rest ; Thyatir● suffers a false Prophetesse ? the rest that haue not this learning , yet are bidden but to hold their owne ; not to separate from the Angell , which hath not separated Iezebel from the Church . SECTION . VII . What separation the Church of England hath made . YOur charge is no lesse iniurious ; that the Church of England hath made no separation : Concerning which , you haue learned of your Martyr , and Ouerseers so to speake , as if before her late disclamation of Popery , in Queene Elizabeths time , she had not beene . Her Monuments could haue taught you better , and haue ledde you to her auncient Pedigree not much below the Apostolike daies , and in many discents haue shew'd you not a few worthy witnesses and Patrons of Truth ; all which with their holy and constant of-spring it might haue pleased you to haue separated from this imputation of not separating : Will you know therefore how the Church of England hath separated ? In her first conuersion she separated her selfe from Pagans ; in her continuance she separated her selfe from grosse heretiques , and sealed her separation with blood : in her reformation she separated her selfe from wilfull Papists by her publique profession of Truth , and proclaimed hatred of errour ; and she daily doth separate the notoriously euil by suspensions by excommunications , though not so many as yours : Besides the particular separations of many from the acknowledged corruptions , in iudgement , profession , practise . All these will be auowed in spight of all contradiction : with what forehead then can you say ; the whole Church of England hath not at all separated ? After all your shifts and idle tales of constitution , you haue separated from this Church against the Lord , not with the Lord , from it : If there be Christ with vs , if the spirit of God in vs , if Assemblies , if calling by the word : whatsoeuer is , or is not else in the Constitution , there is whatsoeuer is required to the essence of a Church , no corruption eyther in gathering or continuance can destroy the truth of being , but the grace of being well : If Christ haue taken away his word and spirit , you haue iustly subduced ▪ els you haue gone from him in vs. And when you haue al done , the Separatists Idol , visible Constitution , will proue but an appendance of an externall forme , no part of the essence of a true Church : and therefore your separation no lesse vain then the ground , then the Authours . Lastly , if our bounty should ( which it cannot ) grant , that our collection was at first deepely faulty : cannot the Ra●ihabition ( as the Lawyers speake ) bee drawne backe ? In contracts ( your owne similitude ) a following consent iustifies an act done before consent , and why not in the contract betwixt GOD , and his visible Church ? Loe , he hath confirm'd it by his gratious benedictions , and as much as may bee in silence , giuen vs abundant proofes of his acceptation : That after-act , which makes your baptisme lawfull , why can it not make our Church ? SECTION . VIII . Constitution of a Church . BBut for as much as Constitution is the very state of Brownisme , Let vs ( I beseech you ) inquire a little into the Complexion of your Constitution : Whether Physicke , or Lawe , or Architecture haue lent you it : sure I am , it is in this vse , Apocryphall : Neuer man vsed it thus scrupulously till your times : Though , what neede you the helpe of Fathers or Schooles , new words must expresse new Paradoxes . It is no treason to coyne tearmes : What then is Constitution ? Your Doctor can best tell vs : As the Constitution of a Common-wealth , or of a City is a gathering or vniting of people together into a ciuill policy : So ( saith he ) the Constitution of the Common-wealth of Israel , and of the City of God , the new Ierusalem , is a gathering and vniting of people into a Diuine Politie : The forme of which Polity , is Order : which Order is requisite in all actions , and Administrations of the Church , as the Apostle sheweth , and specially in the Constitution thereof : So that next vnto faith in God , it is to be esteemed most necessary for all holy societies . Hence Paul reioyced in the Colossians order and faith : To this Constitution therefore , belong a people as the matter , secondly , a calling or gathering together as the form , wherof the Church consisteth . The Constitution of the Church of England is false in both : VVhy so ? Ha●● we not a people ? Are not those people called together ? To preuent this , you say our Constitution is false , not none : VVhy false ? Because those people haue neither faith , nor order . For faith first : VVho are you , that dare thus boldy breake into the Closets of God , the hearts of men ? and condemne them to want that , which cannot be seene by any but Diuine eies ? how dare you intrude thus into the throne of your Maker ? Consider , and conferre seriously : VVhat faith is it , that is thus necessarily required to each member in this Constitution ? Your owne Doctor shall define it : Faith required to the receiuing in of members , is the knowledge of the doctrine of saluation by Christ 1. Cor. 12. 9. Gal. 3. 2. Now I beseech you in the feare of God , lay by a while all vnchristian preiudice , and peremptory verdicts of those soules , which cost Christ as much blood as your owne : and tell mee ingenuously , whether you dare say , that not onely your Christian brethren with whom you lately conuersed , but euen your forefathers , which liued vnder Queene Elizabeths ? first confused reformation , knew not the doctrine of saluation by Christ : if you say they did not , your 〈◊〉 iudgement shal be punished fearefully , by him whose office you vsurpe . As you looke to answere before him that would not breake the bruised Reede ; nor quench the smoaking Flaxe , presume not thus aboue men and Angels : If they did , then had they sufficient clayme both to true Constitution and Church : But this faith must be testified by obedience , so it was : If you thinke not so , yours is not testified by loue : Both were weake , both were true : Weakenes in any grace or worke , takes not away truth : Their sinnes of ignorance could no more 〈◊〉 Gods couenant with them , them multiplicity of wiues with the Patriarches . SECTION . IX . Secondly ▪ Order . VVHat wanted they then ? Nothing but Order ; and not all Order , but yours : Order , a thing requisite and excellent , but let the world indge whether essentiall : Consider now , I beseech you in the bowels of Christ Iesus , whither this be a matter for which heauen and earth should be mixed : whether for want of your Order , all the world must be put out of all Order , and the Church out of life and being : Nothing ( say we ) can be more disorderly , then the confusion of your Democracy , or popular state ( if not Anarchy● ) Where all ( in a sort ) ordaine and excommunicate ; We condemne you not for no true members of the Church : what can be more order 〈◊〉 ( by your owne confusions ) then the 〈◊〉 ▪ Church at Amsterdam , which yet you graunt but faulty , If there be disproportion and dislocation of some parts , is it no true humane bodie ? will you rise from the feast , vnlesse the dishes be set on in your owne fashion ? Is it no City , if there be mud-walles halfe-broken , low Cottages vnequally built , no state house ? But your order hath more essence , then you can expresse ; and is the same which Politicians in their trade call ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) an incorporating into one common ciuill body ; by a voluntary vnion , and that vnder a lawfull gouernment : Our Church wants both : wherein there is both constraint , and false office . Take your owne resemblance and your owne asking : Say that some tyrant ( as Basilius of Russia ) shall forceably compell a certaine number of subiects into Mosco , and shall hold them in , by an awfull Garison , forcing them to new lawes and Magistrates , perhappes hard and bloody : They yeeld , and making the best of all , liue together in a cheerefull communion , with due commerce , louing conuersation , submissiue execution of the inioyned lawes : In such case , Whether is Mosco a true City , or not ? Since your Doctor cytes Aristotle ; let it not irke him to learne of that Philosopher , who can teach him , that when Clisthenes had driuen out the Tyrants from Athens , and set vp a new Gouernement , and receiued many strangers , and bondmen into the Tribes , it was doubted , not which of them were citizens , but whither they were made Citizens vniustly . If you should finde a company of true Christians in vtmost India , would you stand vpon tearmes , and inquire how they became so ? VVhiles they haue what is necessary for that heauenly profession ; what need your curiosity trouble it selfe with the meanes ? SECTION . X. Constraint requisite . YOu see then what an idle plea constraint is in the Constitution of a City , the ground of all your exception : But it is otherwise in Gods Citie , the Church ; why then doth his Doctor shippe parallell these two ? And why may not euen constraint it selfe haue place in the lawfull constitution or reformation of a Church ? Did not Manisses after his comming home to God , charge and commaund 〈◊〉 to serue the Lord God of Israel ? Did not worthy Iosiah when he had made a couenant before the Lord , cause all that were found in Ierusalem , and Beniamin to stand to it , and compelled all that were found in Israel , to serue the Lord their God ? What haue Queene Elizabeth , or King Iames done more ? or what other ? Did not Asa vpon Obeds prophesie , gather both Iudae and Beniamin , and al the strangers from Ephraim , Manasses , and Simeon , and enact with them , that whosoeuer would not seeke the Lord God should be slaine ? What meanes this perue●snesse ? You that teach we may not stay Princes leasure to reforme , will you not allow Princes to vrge others to reforme ? What crime is this , that men were not suffered to be open Idolaters , that they were forced to yeeld submission to Gods ordinances ? Euen your owne teach that Magistrates may compell infidelles to heare the doctrine of the Church ; and Papists , you say elsewhere ( though too roughly ) are infidells : But you say , not to be members of the Church : Gods people are of the willing sort : True , Neither did they compell them to this : They were before entred into the visible Church by true Baptisme , though miserably corrupted . They were not now initiated , but purged : Your 〈◊〉 Doctor 〈◊〉 vs from Bernard that faith is to be 〈…〉 , to bee compelled yet let him 〈◊〉 that the guests must bee compelled to come in , though not to eat when they are come . Compelled , not by perswasions ; for these were the first inuitation● , therfore by further meanes ; Though this conceit hath no place with vs ; where men were vrged not to receiue a new faith , but to performe the old ; to abandon that wicked Idolatry which had defiled them ; and to entertaine but that truth , which the very power of their Baptisme challenge that their hand ▪ But this was the old song of the Donatists ; Far bee it from our conscience to compell any man to the faith . If God did not draw vs , and by asweat violence bend our wils to his , when should we follow him ? Either you haue not read , or not cared for the practise of the auncient Church , and Augustines resolution concerning the sharpe penalties , imposed vpon the Donatists ( would God none of your kindred ) in his time , with his excellent defences of these proceedings . SECTION . XI . Constitution of the Church of England . BVt tell vs then , what should haue beene done ? The Gospell should haue beene euery where preached ; All conuer●s should haue been singled out , and haue gi●en a voluntary and particular confession of their faith , and repentance : I answere you : The Gospell was long and worthily preached in the dayes of King Edward ; enough to yeeld both Martyres to the stake , and professors to the succeeding times : Were their holy Sermons , their learned writings , and their pretious blood ( which was no lesse vocall ) of no force ? Afterwards , in the beginning of famous Queene Elizabeths reparation , what confluence was there of zealous Confessors returning now from their late exile ? How painefully and Diuinely did they labour in this Vineyard of God ? How did they ( with their many holy Partners , which had shrowded themselues during that storme of persecution , in a dangerous secrecy ) spread themselues ouer this land , and each-where drew flockes of hearers to them , and with them ? Is all this nothing to their ingrateful posterity ? If you murmure that there was no more , take heede least you forget there were so many : for vs , wee doe seriously blesse God for these , and triumph in them . All this premised ; now comes a Christian Edict from the State , that euery man shall yeelde obedience to this truth , wherein they had beene thus instructed : It was performed by the most , whose submission , what was it but an actuall profession of their faith , and repentance ? And since such was their face , who dares iudge of their hearts ? More then this , if euer can bee shewed absolutely necessary in such a state of the Church to the very Constitution , and repaired . Beeing thereof , I do here vow neuer to take the Church of England for my mother . We know , and grieue to see how scornfully your whole Sect , and amongst the rest , your resolute Dr. turnes ouer these gratious entrances and proceedings of these two royall and blessed Reformers ; and whom should he finde to raise his scoffes vpon , but that Saint-like Historian Master Foxe ? Now ( saies Master Foxe ) a new face of things began to appeare , as it were in a Stage , new Players comming in , the olde thrust out : Now ( saieth your Doctors Comment ) new Bishoppes came in , as Players vpon the olde Stage of the Popish Church , as if the Church were no whit altered , but the men : Shall we say this is too much malice , or too little wit , and conscience ? Euen in the Lord Protectors daies , that holy man reports , that after the Scriptures restored , and Masses abolished , greater thinges followed these softer beginnings , in the reformation of the Churches : Learned and godly Diuines were called for from forraine parts , a separation was made ( though not so much willing , as wilfull ) of open and manifest aduersaries from Professors , whether true or dissembled : Commissioners were appointed to visite euery seuerall Diocesse . Euery Bench of them had seuerall godly and learned Preachers to instruct the people in the truth , and to disswade them from Idolatry and Superstition . The Popes Supremacy not thrust , but taught downe : All wil-worshippe whatsoeuer , oppugned by publique Sermons : Images destroyed , Pilgrimages forbidden , the Sacraments inioyned to be reuerently , and holily ministred , Ecclesiastical persons reformed in life , in doctrine : Processions laide downe , Presence and attendance vpon Gods word commanded , the holy expending of Sabboth dayes appointed , due preparation to Gods table called for , set times of teaching inioyened to Bishoppes and other Ministers , all shr●nes and Monuments of Idolatry required to be vtterly taken from publique and priuate houses : All this , before his Parliament : By that , all bloody lawes against Gods trueth were repealed , zealous Preachers encouraged , so as ( saith that worthy Historian ) God was much glorified , and the people in many places greatly edified : What neede I goe further then this first yeare ? Heare this and be ashamed , and assure your selues that no man can euer read those holy Monuments of the Church but must needes spit at your separation . After that sweete and hopefull Prince , what his renowmed sister Queene Elizabeth did , the present times doe speake and the future shall speake , when all these Murmurers shall sleepe in the dust . The publique disputations , zealous Preachings , restaurations of banished religion and men , extirpations of Idolatry , Christian lawes , wise and holy proceedings , and renewed couenants with God , are still fresh in the memories of some , and in the eares of all , so as all the world wil iustly say , you haue lost shame with truth , in denying it : Yea to fetch the matter yet further , If the Reader shall looke backe to the daies of their Puissant Father King Henry the eight , he cannot but acknowledge ( especially during the time of Queene Anne , and before those sixe bloody Articles ) a true face of a Church ( though ouer-spreade with some morphue of corruptions ) and some commendable forwardnesse of Reformation : for both the Popes Supremacy was abrogated , the true doctrine of Iustification commonly taught , confidence in Saints vntaught , the vanity of Pardons declared , worshippe of Images and Pilgrimages forbidden , learned and godly Ministers required , their absences and mis-demeaners inhibited , the Scriptures translated , publickly and priuately inioyned to be read , and receiued , the word of God commaunded to be sincerely and carefully preached : and to all this , holy Master Foxe addeth for my conclusion , such a vigilant care was then in the King and his Councell , how by all wayes and meanes to redresse Religion , to reforme errours , to correct corrupt customes , to helpe ignorance , and to reduce the mis-leadings of Christs Flocke , drowned in blinde Popery , superstitious customes , and Idolatry to some better forme of Reformation , whereunto he prouided not onely these Articles , Precepts , Iniunctions aboue specified , to inform the rude people , but also procured the Bishops to helpe forward the same cause of decayed doctrine , with their diligent preaching , and teaching of the people . Goe now & say , that suddenly in one day , by Queen Elizabeths trumpet , or by the sound of a Bell , in the name of Antichrist , all were called to the Church : Goe , say with your Patriarch that wee erect Religions by Proclamations , and Parliaments . Vpon these premises I dare conclude , and doubt not to maintaine against all Separatists in the world that England ( to goe no higher ) had in the daies of King Henry the eight , a true visible Church of God , and so by consequent their succeeding seede was by true Baptisme iustly admitted into the bosome therof , and therefore that euen of them without any further profession , Gods Church was truly constituted : If you shall say that the following Idolatrie of some of them in Queene Maries daies excluded them : Consider how hard it will be to prooue that Gods couenant with any people , is presently disanulled by the sinnes of the most , whether of ignorance , or weakenesse ; and if they had herein renounced GOD , yet that GOD also mutually renounced them . To shut vppe your Constitution then : There is no remedy : Eyther you must goe forward to Anabaptisme , or come backe to vs : All your Rabbines ca●not aunswere that charge of your rebaptized brother : If wee bee a true Church , you must returne , If wee bee not ( as a false Church is no Church of GOD ) you must rebaptise : If our Baptisme be good , then is our constitution good . Thus your owne Principles teach . The outward parte of the true visible Church is a Vowe , Promise , Oathe or Couenant betwixt GOD and the Saints : Now I aske , Is this made by vs in Baptisme , or noe ? If it be , then we haue ( by your Confession ( for so much as is outwardly required ) a true visible Church : so your separation is vniust : If it be not , then you must rebaptise : for the first Baptisme is a nullity : and ( if ours be not ) you were neuer thereby as yet entred into any visible Church . SECTION . XII . The Aunswerers title . AS for the title of Ring-leader , wherewith I stiled this pamphleter ; if I haue giuen him too much honour in his Sect , I am sory : Perhappes I should haue put him ( pardon an homely , but in this sense , not vnusall word ) in the taile of this Traine : Perhaps I should haue endorsed my Letter to Master Smith , and his shadow ; So I perceiue he was : Whatsoeuer , whither he lead or follow , God meetes with him : If hee lead : Behold I will come against them that prophesie false dreames ( saith the Lorde ) and doe tell them , and cause my people to erre by their lies . If he come behinde ; Thou shalt not follow a multitude in euill ( saith God ) . If either , or both , or neither , If he will goe alone ; Woe vnto the foolish Prophets ( saith the Lord ) which follow their owne spirits , and haue seene nothing . Howsoeuer , your euill shall bee reproued by the light of Gods word : Your coni●●ction I cannot promise , your reproofe I dare , If therupon you shall finde grace to see and heale your errours , we should with all brotherly humblenesse attend on foote vpon your returne on Horse-backe ; but if the sway of your mis-resolued conscience bee heady and vnresistable , and your retyring hopelesse ; these not solide reasons , these pretty pamphlets , these formall flourishes shall one day be fearefull and materiall euidences against you before that awefull Iudge , which hath already sayd , That iudgements are prepared for the scorners , and stripes for the backe of fooles . SECTION . XIII . The Apostacie of the Church of England . I professed to bestow pitie and sorrow vpon you and your wrong : You entertaine both harshly , and with a churlish repulse : What should a man do with such dispositions ? Let him stroke them on the backe , they snarle at him ; and show their teeth : Let him shew them a Cudgell , they flie in his face : You allow not our actions , and returne our wrong ; Ours is both the iniurie and complaint : How can this be ? You are the agents , we sit still , and suffer in this rent : Yet ( since the cause makes the Schisme ) let vs inquire , not whose the action is , but whos 's the desert : Our Church is deepe drencht in Apostacie ; and wee crie Peace , Peace : No lesse then a whole Church at once , & that not sprinkled , or wetshod , but drencht in Apostacie ? What , did we fall off from you , or you from vs ? Tell me , were we euer the true Church of God ? And were we then yours ? We cannot fall vnlesse we once stood : Was your Church before this Apostacie ? Show vs your ancestours in opinion : Name me but one that euer taught as you doe ; and I vow to separate : Was it not ? Then we fell not from you : Euery Apostacie of a Church must needs be from the true Church ; A true Church , and not yours ? And yet can there be but one true ; See now whether in branding vs with Apostasie , you haue not proued yours to be no true Church : Still I am ignorant : Queene Maries dayes ( you say ) had a true Church , which separated from Poperie , chose them Ministers , serued God holily , from thence was our Apostacie : But , were not the same also ( for the most part ) Christians in King EDVVARDS dayes ? Did they then , in that confused allowance of the Gospel , separate ? Or ( I pray you ) were Cranmer , Latimer , Ridley , Hooper and the rest , parts of that Church , or no ? Was there any other ordination of Ministers then from them ? Reiect these , and all the world will hisse at you ; Receiue them , and where is our Apostacie ? What Antichristianisme haue we , whereof these were freed ? But you leape backe ( if I vrge you farre ) from hence to the Apostles times , to fe●ch our once true Church from farre , that it might bee deare : You shall not carue for vs : we like not these bold ouer-leapes of so many Centuries : I speake boldly , you dare not stand to the trial of any Church , since theirs : Now , I heare your Doctor say this Challenge sauors of Rome : Antiquitie is with you , a Popish plea : We haue willingly taken vp our aduersaries , at this ( by pretence , their owne ) weapon : You debarre it in the conscience of your owne nouell singularitie : Yet your Pastor can be content to make vse of Tertullian alone against all Fathers ; That such things are iustly to be charged with vanitie , as are done without any precept either of the Lord or of the Apostles : And , the Apostles did faithfully deliuer to the nations the Discipline they receiued of Christ , which we must beleeue to be the tumultuary Discipline of the refined house-full at Amster dam : What ? all in all ages , and places till now Apostates ? Say if you can , that those famous Churches , wherein Cyprian , Athanasius , Ambrose , Hierome , Austen , Chrysostome , and the rest of those blessed lights liued , were lesse deepe in this Apostacy then ours ? O Apostaticall Fathers , that separated not ! yea , say if you dare , that other reformed Churches are not ouer the Ankles with vs in this Apostacy ? What hard newes is this to vs , when as , your Oracle dare say not much lesse , of the Reformed Churches of Netherlands , with whom you liue ? Thus he writes : For not hearing of them in other Congregations in these countries ; this I answer , That seeing by the mercie of God , we haue seene and forsaken the corruptions yet remayning in the publique Ministration , and condition of these Churches ( if they be all like to these of this Citie ) , we cannot therfore partake with them , in such case , without declining and Apostasie from the truth , which we haue our selues already receiued , and professed . See here , to partake with them in Gods seruice is Apostacy ; If so in the accessoryes , Alas , what crime is in the principall ? It were but Apostasie to heare an English Sermon ; a Dutch is no lesse : Woe is you that you dwell still in Meshech : Good men ; it were not more happy for you then the Church , that you were well in heauen . No lesse then Apostasie ? Let no Reader bee appalled at so fearefull a word , this is one of the tearmes of Arte familiar to this way : Find but any one page of a Duch printed volume without Apostasie , Excommunication , Commingling , Constitution , and suspect it not theirs : Heresie is not more frequent at Rome , then Apostacy at Amsterdam , nor Indulgences more ordinary there , then here Excommunications . Common vse makes terrible thinges easie : Their owne Master Sl. for holding with the Dutch Baptisme , and read-prayers is acknowledged to be cast our for an Apostate : yea their Doctor Mr. A●nsworth is noted with this marke from themselues : there is much latitude ( as happy is ) in their Apostasie : For when Stanshall Mercer and Iacob Iohnson were to be chosen Officers in their Church , and exception was taken by some at their Apostacy , answere was made , It was not such Apostacy as debarred them from office , it was but aslippe . Iohn Marke ( whether , as Isychius and Theophilact think , the blessed Euangelist , or some other holy Minister ) is by the whole Parlour at Amsterdam , branded with this same Apostasie ; who departed indeed , but from Paul in his iourney , not from Christ in his faith , and therefore his ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) is expounded by ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) Act. 15. 38. why do we think much to drinke of an Euangelists cuppe ? Yet let this ignorant Epistler teach his censorious answerer one point of his owne ( that is the Separatists ) skill : and tell him that hee obiects two crimes to one poore Church , which are incompatible ; want of Constitution and Apostasie . Thus writes your Master of vs : If it were admitted ( which can neuer bee proued ) that they sometimes had beene true established Churches . Loe here , we neuer had true Constitution , therefore we are not capable of Apostasie : If we once had it , and so were true Churches , heare , what your Pastor saith : As Christ giueth to all true Churches their being , so wee must leaue it vnto him to take it away , when , and as he pleaseth . And therefore since he hath not remoued his Candlesticke , nor taken away his Kingdome , in spight of all obiected Apostasies , we still continue so : and by consequent your separation vpon this ground is most vniust . An Apostate had wont to bee the fearefull surname of damned Iulian : Tortus was an easie accusar , to whom yet , we may say with Elihu , Num dicis regi , Apostata ? Behold now so many Apostates as men : Holy Cyprian describes him by forsaking Christs colors , & taking vp arms for Gentilisme in life , or herefie in iudgment : And Augustine telles vs , there cannot bee a greater sinne then Apostasie ; making else-where this sinner , worse then the Infidell And the olde vulgar can giue no worse tearme to ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) where he findes it , yea to ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) rebels themselues . What doth this brand to a Church , not Christian onely ( though you denie it ) but famous : Of whom is truely verefied ( after all your splene ) that which the spirit writes to the Angel of Ephesus : Laborasti & non Defecisti : Say if you can , what Article of the Christian , and Apostolike faith haue we renounced ? What heresie maintaine wee ? Wherein haue wee runne from the tents of Christ ? What hold we that may not stand with life in Christ , and saluation ? VVe challenge all men and Diuels in this point , for our innocence : Distinguish , for starke shame of so foule a word ; or ( which is better ) eate it whole ; and let not this blemish be left vpon your soule and name in the Records of God , and the world ; that you once said of a Church too good for yours , Drencht in apostacy . If we crie Peace , whiles you crie Apostasie ; surely we flatter , whiles you rayle : betwixt these two dangerous extremes , wee know an wholsome meane , so to approue that we foster not security : so to censure , that we neither reuile , nor separate : and in one word , to doe that which your Pastor could exhort the separators from your Separation ( for euen this Schisme hath Schismes ) If we should mislike , yet to rest in our differences of iudgement , and notwithstanding peaceably to continue with the Church : Had you taken this course , you should neither haue needed to expect our pitie , nor to complaine of our cruelty . Surely , whether our loue be cruell , or not , your hatred is , whereof , take heede least you heare from old Iacob , Cursed be their wrath for it was fierce , and their rage for it was cruell . How can you expect compassion , when you breath fire , and write gall ? Neuer mention the fury of others indignation , till the venemous and desperate writings of Barrow and Greenwood bee evther worne out with time , or by the Thunder-bolts of your ( not rare ) censures be strucke downe to hell , whence their maliciousnesse came . I forbeare to recapitulate , how much rather had I helpe to burie , then to reuiue such vn-christian exprobrations ? SECTION . XIIII . The Separatists acknowledgements of the graces of the Church of England . INgratitude and vnnaturalnesse to your Mother is obiected , In that you flie from her , yea now ( wo is me ) that you spit in her face , and mark her for an harlot : VVould God the accusation were as farre from being iust , as from being triuiall : Yet perhappes you intend it not in the lightnesse of this charge , but the commonnesse : you haue caused me to smart for my charity , yet I forbeare it not : VVhat is your defence ? That you haue done her no wrong , to your knowledge . Modestly spoken , but doubtfully : we know your wrong , but we know not your knowledge : it is well if your wrong be not wilful : an ignorant wrong is both in more hope of amends , and of mercie : But is not this caution added , rather for that you thinke no hard measure can possibly be a wrong to so vile a Church ? I aske , and would be denied : No , you doe freely , and with all thankefulnesse acknowledge euery good thing she hath : VVhatsoeuer you doe to vs , I will not any more in fauour of you , wilfully wrong my selfe : you haue bidden men now to take you as a complete Separatist : and speake this for your selfe and yours . Let the Reader now iudge , whether the wrong of your Sect be wilful ; and acknowledgment of our good , free and thankfull . Your first false-named Martyr shall giue the first witnes of the titles of our Church : VVho ( saith he ) that were not drunke and intoxicate with the VVhores cuppe ; could affirme this confuse Babell , these cages of vncleane Birds , these prisons of foule and hatefull spirits , to be the Spouse of Christ ? And else-where , he calles the people of our Church Goates and Swine . Is this any wrong to your knowledge ? The same Author : They haue not ( saith he ) in their Churches any one thing in their practise and proceedings , not one pin , naile , or hooke according to the true patterne : Doe you not now freely and thankefully acknowledge our Churches good things ? VVhat is more ordinary with him , and his brother in euill I. Greenewood , then to call our worthie Ministers Baals Priests , Cainites , the marked seruants of Antichrist , sellers of the VVhores wares , worshippers of the Beast . Is this yet any wrong to your knowledge ? Pastor Iohnson sticks not to say , that the Ministerie and worshippe of the Church of England were taken out of the VVhores cuppe : and plainely stiles our Church ( as which of you doe not ? ) daughter of the great Babilon , that mother of whoredomes and abhominations of the earth : yet more ; That Hierarchy , Worshippe , Constitution and Gouernement , which they professe and practise , being directly Antichristian , doe vtterly destroy true Christianity , so as their people and Churches , cannot in that estate be iudged true Christians : Do you not now freely and thankfully acknowledge our good things ? What can any Diuell of hell say worse against vs then this , That we are no Christians ? Or what good can there be in vs , if no true Christianity ? If wee denied euery Article of the Christian Creed : if we were Mahumetans ( as your good Pastor stickes not to compare vs ) , if the most damned Heretiques vnder heauen , what could he say but no Christians ? Your teacher and Pastour ( which is a wonder ) agree : For your Doctor Ainsworth makes this one head of his poysonous Counterpoyson , that Christ is not the head , Mediatour , Prophet , Priest , King of the Church of England : You , their Disciple are not yet promoted to this height of immodestie ; yet what are your good things ? Euen to you , we are Apostates , Traytors , Rebels , Babylonish : This is well for a learner : Hereafter ( if you will heare me ) keepe our good things to your selfe , and report our euill . Yea , that your vncharitablenesse may bee aboue all examples , monstrous ; You doe not onely denie vs any interest in the Church of Christ , but exclude vs ( what you may ) from all hope and possibilitie of attaining the honour of Christendome : For when a godly Minister protested to Master Barrow , the trueth of his ministerie ; vpon the approbation also of his people , hee receiued this answere from him : Though you had such allowance , it could nothing auaile , but rather ouerthrow your Ministerie ; they being as yet vngathered to Christ , and therefore neither may not in this estate chuse them a Minister , nor any exercise a Ministerie vnto them , without hainous sacriledge , O desperate iudgement ; we neither are Christians , nor can be : No Christianitie without faith , no faith without the Ministerie of the word , no word to vs without sacriledge : What are we , that the very offer of bringing vs to God should be criminall ? These are your acknowledgements of our good : Who haue learned of your Pastour to kisse and kill all at once : to blesse and curse with one breath : your mercies are cruell . SECTION . XV. The vnnaturalnesse of some principall Separatists . BVT who can wonder at your vnnaturalnesse to the Church , that heares what measure you mete to your owne ? Errour is commonly ioyned with cruelty : The outragious demeanures of the Circumcelliones in Augustines time ; and more then barbarous tyranny of the Arrians before him are wel knowen by all Histories , and not enough by any : God forbid , that I should compare you to these . Heare rather of Nouatus , the father of a not-vnlike Sect , of whom Cyprian reports , that he would neither bestow bread on his father aliue , nor buriall on him deade , but suffred him both to starue and stinke in the street : and for his wife ( least he should be mercifull to any ) hee spurned her with his heele , and slew his owne childe in her bodie : What need I seeke so far ? I grieue to thinke and report , that your owne Pastor hath paralleled this cruelty : His owne brother ( which is no lesse sauadge ) though one of your Sect , is the publick accuser and condemner of him in this crime to all the world : who after a pittifull relation of his eight yeares quarrels with him , and foure years excommunication , in his Epistle before a large volume to this purpose , writes thus : After all these , hath not our kind , carefull , and old Father come a long iourney to make Peace ? Hath he not laboured with you , the Elders and the Church , to bring you to peace ? Hath hee not vsed the helpe and counsell of the Reformed Churches herein ? Yet will you not be reclaimed , but adding that sinne aboue all , haue also ●●●strously excommunicated your father , the peace-seeker , &c. and straight ; How oft desired he you ( as if he had beene the sonne , and you the father ) euen with teares , that you would repent . In a word , how came he and I to your doore , shewing you that it might bee ( vpon his departing ) you should see his face no more , &c. Yet you forced him by your ill dealing , still to leaue vpon you , his curse , and all the curses writen in Gods booke against vnthankfull and disobedient children . Thus farre a brother concerning a brother , against father and brother ; Other strangely-vnkind vsages of both , I had rather leaue to the discouery of Master White , and this miserable plaintiue , who haue written enough to make an enemy ashamed : But whereupon was all this fearefull broile in a pure Church ? For nothing but a little lace , and whale-bone in his wiues sleeue . The Troian warre could not be slaundered with so weighty a beginning . As for your Elder , Daniel Studly ( whom your Pastor so much extolleth ) if Master Whites Apostasie may be your shift against his relation ; let him speake who should haue beene a fellow-elder with him , banished for your trueth , though erected by your censure : Marke ( saith G. Iohns . of this Studly ) how the Lord hath iudged him with vnnaturalnesse to his owne children , suffering them to lie at other mens feete , and hang on other mens hands , whiles he , his wife , and her daughter fared daintily , and went prankingly in apparell , euen in this place of banishment . It is no ioy to me to blazen these , or your othersins ; would God they were fewer , and lesse in vs all . Onely it was fit the world should know , as how vndutiful you are to your common parent , so that Father , Brother , Children beare part with your mother in these your cruelties . SECTION . XVI . what the Separatists thinke themselues beholden to the Church of England for . IF then such bee the good things of our Church ; What good can you acknowledge to haue receiued from her ? Nothing giues what it hath not : A Baptisme perhaps ; Alas , but no true Sacrament , you say : yea the seale of gracelesnesse and mischiefe ; As little are you beholden to the Church for that , as the Church to you , for your good acceptation : Why are you not rebaptized ? You that cannot abide a false Church , why doe you content your selues with a false Sacrament ? especially , since our Church , being not yet gathered to Christ is no Church , and therefore her baptisme a nullity . What else doe you owe to the liberality of this Step-dame ? You are close ; your Pastor is lauish for you both ; who thus speakes of himselfe , and you , and vs : I confesse that whiles I was Minister in your Church of England , I stood in an Antichristian estate , yet doubt I not , but euen then , being of the Elect of God I was partaker through faith , of the mercy of God in Christ to saluation , but as for you ( Master Iacob and his fellow-Christians ) whiles you thus remaine , you cannot in that estate approue your selues to haue the promise of saluation . Behold here , the Church of England gaue you but an Antichristian estate ; if God giue secret mercy , what is that to her ? Gods superabundant grace dooth neither abate ought of her Antichristianisme , nor moue you to follow him in couering , and passing by the manifold enormities in our Church , wherewith those good things are inseparably commingled : Your owne mouth shall condemne you : Doth God passe ouer our enormites , and doe you stick , yea separate ? Doth his grace couer them , and do you display them ? Haue you learned to be more iust then your Maker ? Or if you be not aboue his iustice , Why are you against his mercie ? God hath not disclaimed vs by your owne confession ; you haue preuented him . If Princes leisures may not be stayed in reforming , yet shall not Gods in reiecting ? Your ignorance inwrapped you in our errours : his infinite wisedome sees them , and yet his infinite mercie forbeares them : so might you at once haue seene , disliked , stayed : If you did not herein goe contrary to the courses of our common God , how happy should both sides haue beene ? yea how should there be no sides ? How should wee be more inseparably commingled , then our good and euill ? But should you haue continued still in sinne that grace might haue abounded ? God forbid : you might haue continued here without sinne ( saue your owne ) and then grace would no lesse haue abounded to you , then now your sinne abounds in not continuing : What neede you to surfet of another mans Trencher ? Others sinnes neede no more to infect you , then your graces can sanctifie them . As for your further light , suspect it not of God : suspect it to be meere darkenesse : and if the light in you be darknesse , how great is that darkenesse ? What ? so true and glorious a light of God , and neuer seene til now ? No worlds , times , Churches , Patriarches , Prophets , Apostles , Martyrs , Fathers , Doctors , Christians euer saw this truth looke foorth besides you , vntill you ? Externall light was Gods first creature , and shall this spirituall light , whereby all Churches should be discerned come thus late ? Mistrust therefore your eyes , and your light : and feare Isayes woe , and the Iewes miserable disappointment : we wait for light , but loe it is darkenesse , for brightnesse , but we walke in obscuritie . SECTION . XVII . The Motherhood of the Church of England , how farre it obligeth vs. THE Church of England is your mother , to her small comfort ; she hath borne you , and repented . Alas , you haue giuen her cause to powre out Iobs curses vpon your birth-day , by your not onely forsaking but cursing her : Stand not vpon her faults , which you shall neuer proue capitall : Note only the best Parent might haue brought forth are bellious sonne to be stoned . What then ? Doe we preferre duetie to piety , and so plead for our holy mother Church , that we neglect our heauenly Father , yea offend him ? See what you say : It must needes be an holy mother that cannot be pleased without the displeasure of God : A good wife , that opposes such an husband : a good sonne that vpbraides this vniustly : Therfore is she a Church , your mother , holy , because she bred you to God , cleaues to him , obeyes his commaundements , and commaunds them . And so farre is shee from this desperate contradiction , that she voweth not to hold you for her sonne , vnlesse you honour God as a father . It is a wilful slaunder , that you could not but heynously transgresse vnder her : I dare take it vpon my soule , that all your transgression which you should necessarily haue incurred by her obedience , is nothing so heynous , as your vnchariblenesse in your censures and disobedience . Conscience is a common plea euen to those you hate : we inquire not how strong it is , but how well informed : not whether it suggest this , but whereuppon . To goe against the conscience is sinne , to follow a mis-informed conscience is sinne also : If you do not the first , we know you are faulty in the second : He that is greater then the conscience will not take this for an excuse : But wherein should haue beene this transgression : so vnauoidable , heynous , against conscience ? First in the want of many Ordinances , to which we are most strictly bound , both by Gods word , and our owne necessities . SECTION . XVIII . The want of pretended Ordinances of God , whether sinfull to vs : and whether they are to be set vp without Princes . CAn you thinke this hangs well together ? You should here want many of Gods ordinances : why should you want them ? Because you are not suffered to inioy them : who hinders it ? Superior powers : Did euer man willfully and heynously offend , . for wanting of that which he could not haue ? What hath conscience to doe with that which is out of our power ? Is necessity with you become a sinne , and that haynous ? Dauid is driuen to lurke in the wildernesse , and forced to want the vse of many diuine Ordinances : It was his sorrow , not his transgression , He complaines of this , but doth he accuse himselfe of sinne ? Not to desire them had beene sinne , no sin to be debat'd them : Well might this be Sauls sin but not his . Haue you not sinnes enow of your owne , that you must needes borrow of others ? But I see your ground : You are bound to haue these Ordinances ; and therefore without Princes , yea against them : so it is your transgression to want them in spight of Magistrates , Gaudentius the Donatist taught you this of old ; And this is one of the Hebrew songs which Master B●rrow sings to vs in Babylon , that we care not to make Christ attend vpon Princes , and to be subiect to their lawes , and gouernment : and his Predecessor ( the roote of your sect ) tels vs in this sense the kingdome of heauen must suffer violence ; and that it comes not with obseruation ; that men may say , Loe the Parliament or loe the Bishops decrees : and in the same treatise . The Lords kingdome must wait on your policy , forsooth ; and his Church must be framed to your ciuill state &c. Iust as that Donatist of old , in Augustine , Quid vobis &c. What haue you to doe with worldly Emperours ? and as that other in Optatus : Quid Imperatori cum Ecclesia ? What hath the Emperour to doe with the Church ? Yea your Martyr feares not to teach vs , that Gods seruants being as yet priuate men , may and must together build his Church , though all the Princes of the world should prohibit the same vpon paine of death : Belike then you should sin haynously , if you should not be rebels : The question is not , whether we shold aske leaue of Princes to be Christians ; but whether of Christian Princes wee should aske leaue to establish circumstances of gouernment : God must be serued , thogh we suffer ; our blood is wel bestowed vpon our maker , but in patience , not in violence . Priuate profession is one thing ; Publique reformation & iniunction is another ; Euery man must doe that in the maine : none may doe this , but they of whom God saies , I haue said , ye are Gods : and of them : There is difference betwixt Christian and Heathen Princes : If ( at least ) al Princes were not to you Heathen : If these should haue beene altogether stayed for , Religion had come late : If the other should not be stayed for : Religion would soone be ouer layd with confusion : Lastly , the body of Religion is one thing , the skyrts of outward gouernment another : that may not depend on men to be imbraced , or ( with loyalty ) prosecuted : these ( vpon those generall rules Christ ) both may , and doe , and must : If you cut off but one lappe of these with Dauid , you shall be touched : To denie this power to Gods Deputies on earth , what is it , but ye take too much vpon you Mo●es and Aaron , all the Congregation is holy : wherefore lift ye your selues aboue the Congregation of the Lord ? See , if herein you come not too neere the walles of that Rome which ye so abhorre and accurse , in ascribing such power to the Church , none to Princes . Let your Doctor tell you , whether the best Israelites in the times of Abijah , Asa , Iehosaphat , Ezekiah , Iosiah , tooke vpon them to reforme without , or before , or against their Princes ? Yea did Nehemiah himselfe without Artahshaht ( though an heathen King ) set vpon the walles of Gods City ? Or what did Zerubbabel , and Ieshua without Cyrus ? In whose time Haggai and Zechariah prophesied indeede , but built not : And when contrary Letters came from aboue , they laid by both Trowels and Swords : They would bee Iewes still , they would not be rebels for God : Had those Letters inioyned Swines flesh , or Idolatry , or forbidden the vse of the law , those which now yeelded , had suffered , and at once testified their obedience to authority , and piety to him that sittes in the assembly of these earthen Gods. I vrge no more : Perhaps you are more wise or lesse mutinous : you might easily therefore purge your conscience from this sinne , of wanting what you might not perforce enioy . Say that your Church should imploy you backe to this our Babylon , for the calling out of more Proselites : you are intercepted , imprisoned : Shall it bee sinne in you not to heare the Prophesies at Amsterdam ? The Clinke is a lawfull excuse : If your feete be bound , your conscience is not bound . In these negatiues , outward force takes away both sinne and blame , and alters them from the patient to the actor : so that now you see your straight bonds ( if they were such ) loosed by obedience , and ouer-ruling power . SECTION . XIX . The bonds of Gods word vniustly pleaded by the Separ . BVT what bonds were these straight ones ? Gods word and your owne necessity : Both strong and indissoluble where God hath bidden , God forbid that we should care for the forbiddance of men : I reuerence from my soule ( so doth our Church their deare Sister ) those worthy forraine Churches which haue chosen and followed those formes of outward gouernment that are euery way fittest for their owne condition . It is enough for your Sect , to censure them : I touch nothing common to them with you : a While the world standeth , where will it euer be shewed out of the sacred booke of God , that hee hath charged . Let there be perpetuall Lay-Elders in euery Congregation : Let euery Assembly haue a Pastor and Doctor , distinct in their charge and offices : Let all decisions , excommunications , ordinations be performed by the whole multitude : Let priuate Christians ( aboue the first turne , in extremity ) agree to set ouer themselues a Pastor , chosen from amongst them and receiue him with prayer , and ( vnlesse that ceremony be turned to pompe and superstition ) by imposition of hands . Let there be Widdowers ( which you call relieuers ) appointed euery where to the Church-seruice Let certaine discreete and able men which are not Ministers be appointed to preach the Gospell and whole truth of God to the people . All the learned Diuines of other Churches are in these left , yea in the most of them censured by you : Hath God spoken these things to you alone ? Pleade not Reuelations , and wee feare you not : Pardon so homely an example : As soone and by the same illumination shal G. Iohns . proue to your Consistory the lace of the Pastors wiues sleeue , or rings , or Whale-bones , or other amongst you ( as your Pastor confesseth ) knit stockings , or Cork-shooes forbidden flatly by Scriptures , as these commanded . We see the letter of the Scriptures with you : you shall fetch blood of them with strayning , ere you shal wring out this sēse : No , no ▪ ( M. R. ) neuer make God your stale : Many of your ordinances came from no ●ier then your own braine : Others of them though God acknowledges yet he imposed not : Pretend what you will : These are but the cords of your owne conceit , not bonds of Christian obedience . SECTION . XX. The necessity of their pretended Ordinances . THE first of these then is easily vntwisted : your second is necessity : Then which , what can bee stronger ? what law , or what remedy is against necessity ? What we must haue , we cannot want : Oppose but the publique necessitie to yours : your necessity of hauing , to the publique necessity of withholding : and let one of these necessities ( like two nailes ) driue out another : So they haue done , and your owne necessity ( as the stronger ) hath preuailed ; for that other necessity might bee eluded by flight : you haue sought and found else-where , what the necessity of our lawes denied , and the necessity of your conscience required . Beware lest vniustly : Sinne is as strong bond to a good heart as impossibility ; Christians can not doe what they ought not : Contrary to the lawes of your Prince and Countrie , you haue fledde not onely from vs , but from our Communion . Either is disobedience no sinne , or might you do this euil that good may come of it ? But what necessity is this ? simple and absolute , or conditional ? Is there no remedy but you must needes haue such Elders , Pastors , Doctors , Relieuers , such Offices , such executions ? Can there be no Church , no Christians without them ? What shall we say of the families of the Patriarkes , of the Iewish Congregations vnder the law , yea of Christ and his Apostles ? Either denie them to haue beene visible Churches , or shew vs your distinct Offices amongst them : But as yet ( you say ) they were not : Therefore God hath had a true Church ( thousands of yeares ) without them : Therefore they are not of the essence of the Church : You call me to the times since Christ : I demand then , was there not a worthy Church of God in Hierusalem from the time of Christs Ascension , till the election of the seauen Deacons . Those hundred and twentie Disciples , Act. 1. 15. and three thousand Conuerts , Act. 2. 41. Those continuall Troupes that flocked to the Apostles , were they no true Church ? Let the Apostles and Euangelists bee Pastors and Doctors : where were their Elders , Deacons , Relieuers ? Afterwards , when Deacons were ordained , yet what news is there of Elders , till Act. 11 ? yet that of Hierusalem was more forward then the rest : We will not ( as you are wont ) argue from scriptures negatiuely : no proofe yet much probability is in Saint Paules silence : Hee writes to Rome , Corinth , and other Churches : those his Diuine letters in a sweet Christian ciuility salute euen Ordinary Christians : And would hee haue vtterly passed by all mention of these Church-Officers amongst his so precise acknowledgment of lesser titles in others , if they had beene ere this ordained ? yet all these more then true Churches , famous some of them , rich , forward , and exemplary . Onely the Philippian Church is stiled with Bishops and Deacons , but no Elders besides them . The Churches of Christ since these , ( if at least you will graunt that Christ had any Church till now ) haue continued in a recorded succession through many hundreds of yeares : Search the Monuments of her Histories : Shew vs where euer in particular Congregations all these your necessary Offices ( as you describe them ) were either found or required . It was therefore a new-no-Necessity that bound you to this course , or ( if you had rather ) a Necessity of Fallibility : If with these God may be well serued , he may be well serued without them . This is not that Vnum necessarium that Christ commends in Mary : you might haue sate still with lesse trouble , and more thanks . SECTION . XXI . The enormities of the Church in common . BVt besides that we ought to haue had somewhat which we want , we haue some what which wee should haue wanted : Some ? yea many Antichristian enormities . To say we are absolute , and neither want nor abound , were the voice of Laodicea or Tyrus in the Prophet : Our Church as shee is true , so humble : and is as farre from arrogating perfection , as acknowledging falshood : If she haue enormities yet not so many : or if many , not Antichristian . Your Cham hath espied ninety one nakednesses in this his Mother , and glories to shewe them , All his malice cannot shew one Fundamentall errour : and when the foule mouth of your false Martyr hath said all , they are but some spottes and blemishes , not the old running issues , and incurable botches of Egypt : The particulars shall plead for themselues . These you eschue as hell : While you goe on thus vncharitably , both alike : Doe you hate these more then Master Smith , and his faction hates yours ? His Character shall be iudge : So doe we value your detestation as you his . It were well for you if you eschued these enormities lesse , and hell more : Your sinfull subiection to these vnchristian humours will proue more fearefull then to our Antichristian enormities . SECTION . XXII . The Church of England , is the Spouse of Christ. SHE may be your Mother ( you say ) and not the Lords Wife . It is a good Mother that hath Children and no husband : Why did you not call her plaine whore ? Your old Embleme is , As is the Mother , so is the Daughter . These are the modest circumlocutions of a good sonne ; who cares not to proue himselfe a bastard , that his mother may bee mark't for an Harlot : Be you a true Lo-ammi , but England shall neuer ( I hope ) proue an Apostate Israel : We haue no Calues in our Dan and Bethel none of Iero●oams Idolatry : VVee haue still called God Ishi , and neuer burnt incense to Baalim : It is your sinagogue that hath fallen away from vs , as Israel from Iuda : But these children were bidden to plead : Gods command shields them from the note of vngracious . Abraham must sacrifice his sonne and this sonne must condemne his Mother ; shew vs either our equall desert , or your equall warrant . VVhere hath God proclamed our Church not his ? By whose hand hath he published her diuorce ? You haue shamed her wombe , not she her bed , not God her demeanure . Your tongues are your owne , who can forbid you ? VVe know you will plead and excuse , and censure , and defend , till all the world be weary : we may pray with Hierome to this sense that of the Psalmist Increpa Domine bestias calami : yet wee see your pens , tongues , and presses , busie and violent . I will not apply to you that which Augustine of his Donatists . Though truth compell you to be dumbe , yet iniquitie will not suffer you to be silent . But if you write whole Marts and worlds of volumes , you shall neuer be able either to iustifie your innocence , or excuse your fault : In the meane time the noyse of your contentions is so great that your truth cannot bee heard : Learned Iunius , and our learnedst Diuines , and neighbour Churches , haue oft heard your clamors , neuer your truth : So little haue you of this and so much of the other , that we are ready to wish ( as he of old ) either our selues deafe or you dumb . SECTION . XXIII . How the Church of England , hath separated from Babylon . THe spirit of your Proto-Martyr would hardly haue digested this Title of Babylon , Mother of Gods people ; a murdering Step-mother , rather : She cannot be a Mother of Chil●ren to God , and no Church of God : Notwithstanding , Gods people ( would he say ) may be in her , not of her . So Babylon bore them not , but Sion in Babylon , But I feare not your excesse of charity : You fly to your Doctors challenge ; and aske what we say against you for vs , which Rome wil not say for her selfe against vs : Will you iustifie this plea of Rome , or not ? If you will ; why doe you reuile her ? If you will not : why doe you obiect it ? Heare then what we say both to you and them , our enemies both : and yet the enemies of our enemies : First we disclaime , and defie your Pedigree and theirs . The Church of Rome was neuer our Mothers Mother : Our Christian faith came not from the seuen-hilles : Neither was deriued either from Augustine the Monke , or Pope Gregory . Britanny had a worthy Church before either of them look't into the world : It is true that the ancient Roman Church was Sister to ours : here was neare kindred , no dependance : And not more consanguinitie , then ( while she continued faithfull ) Christian loue : Now she is gone a whoring , her chast Sister iustly spitteth at her : yet euen still ( if you distinguish , as your learned Antagonist hath taught you , betwixt the Church and Papacy ) Shee acknowledges her Sisterhood , though she refraines her cōuersation : as she hath many slauish and factious abettors of her knowne and grosse errors ( to whom we deny this title ) affirming them the body whereof Antichrist is the head , the great whore , and mother of abhominations ; so againe how many thousands hath shee , which retayning the foundation according to their knowledge , ( as our learned Whitakers had wont to say of Bernard ) follow Absolom with a simple heart : all which to reiect from Gods Church , were no better thē presumptuous cruelty . It were well for you before God & the world , if you could as easiely wash your hands of vn-naturall impiety , and trecherousnesse , as we of bastardy & vniust sequestration . There can be no bastardy , where was neuer any motherhood , wee were nephews to that Church , neuer sons : vnlesse as Rome was the Mother citie of the world , so by humane institution , we suffered our selues to bee ranged vnder her Patriarchall authority , as being the most famous Church of the West : a matter of courtesie , and pretended Order ; no necessity , no spirituall obligation . As for our sequestration , your mouth and theirs may be stopt with this answer : As all corrupted Churches , so some things the Church of Rome still holds aright ; a true God in three persons , true Scriptures , though with addition , a true Christ , though mangled with foule and erroneous consequences ; true Baptisme though shamefully deformed with rotten traditions ; & many other vndenyable truths of God : some other things ( and too many ) her wicked Apostasie hath deuised and maintained abhominably amisse ; the body of her Antichristianisme , grosse errours , and ( by iust sequel ) heresies ; their Popes supremacy , infallibility , illimitation , transubstantiation , idolatrous and superstitious worshippe , and a thousand other of this branne : In regard of all these latter , we professe to the world a iust and auncient separation from this false faith and deuotion of the Romish Church ; which neither you will say , nor they shall euer proue , faulty : yea rather they haue in all these separated from vs , who stil irrefragably professe to hold with the auncient , from whom they are departed . In regard of the other we are stil with them , holding and embracing with them what they holde with Christ : neither will you ( I thinke ) euer prooue that in these we should differ : As for our communion , they haue separated vs by their proude and foolish excommunications : if they had not , wee would iustly haue begunne : from their Tyranny and Antichristianisme , from their miserable Idolatrie : but as for the bodie of their poore seduced Christians , which remaine amongst them vpon the true foundation ( as doubtlesse there are thousands of them which laugh at their Pardons , Miracles , Superstitions and their trust in merites , reposing only vpon Christ ) we adhere to them in loue and pitty , and haue testified our affection by our blood , ready vpon any iust call to doe it more ; neither would feare to ioyne with them in any true seruice of our common God : But the full discourse of this point , that honourable and learned plesses hath so forstalled , that whatsoeuer 〈◊〉 say , would seeme but borrowed . Vnto his rich Treatise I referre my Reader , for full satisfaction : Would God this point were throughly known , and well weighed on all partes . The neglect or ignorance whereof hath both bred and nursed your separation , and driuen the weake and inconsiderate into strange extremities . This say we for our selues in no more charity then truth : But for you ; how dare you make this shamelesse Comparison ? Can your heart suffer your tong to say , that there is no more diffrence betwixt Rome and vs , then there is betwixt vs and you ? How many hundred errours , how many damnable heresies haue we euinced with you , in that ( so compounded ) Church ? shew vs but one mis-opinion in our Church that you can proue within the ken of the foundation ? Let not zeale make you impudent : Your Doctor could say ( ingenuously sure ) that in the doctrines which she professeth , she is farr better and purer then that Whore mother of Rome , and your last Martyr yet better : If you mean ( saith he ) by a Church ( as the most doe ) that publique profession whereby men do professe saluation to be had by the death and righteousnesse of Iesus Christ , I am free from denying any Church of Christ to be in this land : for I know the Doctrine touching the holy Trinity , the natures and Offices of the Lord Iesus , free iustification by him ; both the Sacraments , &c. published by her Maiesties authority , and commanded by her lawes , to be the Lords blessed and vndoubted truthes , without the knowledge and profession whereof no saluation is to be had : Thus he with some honesty , though little sense . If therfore your will do not stand in your light , you may well see , why we should thus forsake their Communion , and yet not you ours . Yet though their corruptions be incomparably more , wee haue not dared to separate so farre from them , as you haue done from vs for lesse : Still wee holde them euen a visible Church , but vnsound , sicke , dying ; sicke not of a consumption onely , but of a leprosie or plague ( so is the Papacy to the Church ) diseases , not more deadly then infectious . If they be not rather in Sardies taking ; of whom the spirit of God saieth , Thou hast a name that thou liuest , but thou art dead ; and yet in the next words bidds them awake , and strengthen the things which are ready to die . And though our iudgement and practise haue forsaken their erroneous doctrines and seruice , yet our charity ( if you take that former distinction ) hath not vtterly forsaken and condemned their persons . This is not our coolenesse , but equality : your reprobation of vs for them , hath not more zeale then headstrong vncharitablenesse . SECTION . XXIIII The Separation made by our holy Martyrs . BVt how could you without blushing once name Cranmer , Latimer , and those other holy-Martyres , which haue beene so oft obiected to the conuiction of your schisme ? Those Saints so forsooke the Romish Church , as wee haue done , died witnesses of Gods truth in that Church , from which you are separated : Liued , Preached , gouerned , shed their blood in the communion of the Church of England which you disclaime and condemne as no Church of God , as merely Antichristian : Either of necessity they were no Martyrs , yea no Christians , or else your separations and censures of vs are wicked . Chuse whether you will ; They were in the same case with vs ; wee are in the same case with them : no difference but in time : eyther their blood will be vpon your heads , or your owne : This Church had then the same constitution , the same confusion , the same worshippe , the same Ministery , the same gouernement ( which you brand with Antichristianisme ) swayed by the holy hands of these men of God ; condemne them , or allow vs. For their separation : They found many main errours of doctrine in the Church of Rome ( in the Papacy nothing but errours ) worth dying for : shew vs one such in ours , and wee will not onely approue your separation , but imitate it . SECTION . XXV . What separation England hath made . THE Church of England dooth not now wash her hands of Babilonish abhominations , but rather shewes they are cleane . Would God they were no more foule with your slander then her owne Antichristianisme . Here will bee found not pretences but proofes of our forsaking Babylon ; of your forsaking vs , not so much as wel-coloured pretences : You beginne to be ingenuous ; while you confesse a reformation in the Church of England : not of some corruptions , but many , and those many not sleight , but maine . The gifts of aduersaries are thankelesse : As Ierom said of his Ruffinus , so may we of you , that you wrong vs with praises : This is no more praise then your next page giues to Antichrist himselfe . Leaue out Many , and though your commendations be more vncertaine , we shall accept it : so your indefinite proposition shall sound to vs as generall ▪ That we haue reformed the maine corruptions of the Romish Church : None therefore remaine vpon vs ; but sleight and superficiall blemishes , so you haue forsaken a Church of a foule skinne , but of a sound heart , for want of beauty , not of truth . But you say many , not All , that if you can picke a quarrell with one , you might reiect all : yet shewe vs that one maine and substantiall error , which we haue not reformed : and you doe not more embrace those truths with vs which we haue receiued , then we will condemne that falshood which you haue reiected : and imbrace the truth of that Separation which you haue practised . The degrees whereby that strumpet of Babylon got on Horse-back you haue learned of vs , who haue both learned and taught , that as Christ came not abruptly into the world , but with many presages and prefigurations ( The day was long dawning ere this Sunne arose ) . so his aduersary ( that Antichrist ) breaks not suddenly vpon the Church , but comes with much preparation , and long expectance : and as his rise , so his fall must be graduall , and leisurely : Why say you then , that the whole Church euery where must at once vtterly fall off from that Church where that man of sinne sitteth ? His fall depends on the fall of others , or rather their rising from vnder him : If neither of these must be sudden , why is your hast ? But this must not be , yet ought : as there must be heresies , yet there ought not : It is one thing what God hath secretly decreede , another what must be desired of vs : If we could pull that Harlot from her seate , and put her to Iezebels death , it were happy : Haue we not endeuoured it ? VVhat speake you of the hyest Towers , and strongest pillers , or tottering remainders of Babylon : we shew you all her roofes bare , her walles raced , her vaults diged vp , her monuments defaced , her altars sacrificed to desolation : Shortly al her buildings demolished , not a stone vpon a stone saue in rude heapes , to tell that here once was Babylon : Your strife goes about to build againe that her tower of confusion . God deuides your languages : It wil be wel , if yet you build not more then we haue reserued . SECTION . XXVI . The maine grounds of separation . YOV will now be free both in your profession and gift , You giue vs to haue renounced many false Doctrins in Popery : and to haue imbraced so many truths : We take it vntill more : You professe where you sticke , what you mislike : In those foure famous heades , which you haue learned by heart from all your predecessors : An hatefull Prelacy , A deuised Ministery , a confused and prophane communion , and lastly the intermixture of grieuous errors . What if this truth were taught vnder an hatefull Prelacy ? Suppose it were so ? Must I not imbrace the truth because I hate the Prelacy ? What if Israel liue vnder the hatefull Egyptians ? What if Ieremy liue vnder hatefull Pashur ? What if the Iewes liue vnder an hateful Priesthood ? What if the disciples liue vnder hatefull Scribes ? What are others persons to my profession . If I may be freely allowed to be a true professed Christian , what care I vnder whose hands ? But why is our Prelacy hatefull ? Actiuely to you , or passiuely from you ? In that it hates you ? Would God you were not more your owne enemies : Or rather because you hate it ? Your hatred is neither any newes , nor paine : Who or what of ours is not hatefull to you ? Our Churches , Belles , Clothes , Sacraments , Preachings , Prayers , Singings , Catechismes , Courts , Meetings , Burialles , Mariages : It is maruell that our aire infects not : and that our heauen and earth ( as Optatus said of the Donatists ) escape your hatred : Not the forwardest of our Preachers ( as you tearme thē ) haue found any other entertainment ; no enemy could be more spightfull , I speake it to your shame . Rome it selfe in diuers controuersary discourses hath bewrayed lesse gall , then Amsterdam : The better they are to others , you professe they are the worse : yea would to God that of Paule were not verified of you : hatefull , and hating one another : But we haue learned , that of wise Christians not the measure of hatred should be respected , but the desert : Dauid is hatred for no cause , : Michaiah for a good cause : Your causes shall be examined in their places : onwards it were happy if you hated your owne sinnes more , and peace lesse : our prelacy would trouble you lesse , and you the Church . SECTION . XXVII . The truth and warrant of the Ministery of England . FOr our deuised office of Ministery , you haue giuen it a true title . It was deuised indeed by our Sauiour when he said , go teach all Nations and Baptise ; and performed in continuance when hee gaue some to be Pastors and Teachers ; and not only the office of Ministery in generall , but ours whom hee hath made both able to teach , and desirous , seperated vs for this cause to the worke , vpon due tryall admitted vs , ordayned vs by imposition of handes of the Eldershippe , and prayer , directed vs in the right diuision of the word , committed a charge to vs ; followed our Ministery with power , and blessed our labours with gratious successe , euen in the hearts of those whose tongues are thus busie to denie the truth of our vocation : Behold here the deuised Office of ●our Ministery : What can you deuise against this ? Your Pastor , who ( as his brother writes ) hopes to worke wonders by his Logicall skill , hath killed vs with seuen Arguments , which hee professeth the quintessence of his owne , and Penryes extractions , whereto your Doctor referres vs as absolute . I would it were not tedious or worth a Readers labour to see them scanned . I protest before , God and the world , I neuer read more grosse stuffe so boldly and peremptorily faced out : so full of Tautologies and beggings of the Question neuer to bee yeelded . Let mee yet mention the maine heads of them , and for the rest be sory that I may not be endlesse . To proue therefore that no communion may be had with the Ministery of the Church of England , he vses these seuen Demonstrations First , Because it is not that Ministery which Christ gaue , and set in his Church : Secondly , Because it is the ministerie of Antichrists Apostasie : Thirdly , Because none can communicate with the ministery of England , but he worshippes the beasts Image , and yeeldeth spirituall subiection to Antichrist : Fourthly , Because this ministery deriueth not their power and functions from Christ : Fiftly , Because they minister the holy things of God by vertue of a false spirituall calling : Sixthly , Because i● is a strange ministery , not appointed by God in his word : Seuenthly , Because it is not from heauen , but from men . Now I beseech thee Christian Reader , iudge whether that which this man was wont so oft to obiect to his brother ( a crack't braine ) appeare not plainely in this goodly equipage of reasons , for what is al this but one , and the same thing tumbled seuen times ouer ? which yet with seuen thousand times babling shall neuer be the more probable . That our ministery was not giuen and set in the Church by Christ , but Antichristian , what is it else to be from men , to bee strange , to be a false spirituall calling , not to bee deriued from Christ , to worship the Image of the beast ? So this great Challenger that hath abridged his nine Arguments to seuen , might aswell haue abridged his seuen to one and a halfe . Here would haue beene as much substance , but lesse glory : As for his maine defence : First , wee may not either haue , or expect now in the Church that ministery which Christ set : Where are our Apostles , prophets , Euangelists ? If we must alwayes looke for the very same administration of the Church which our Sauiour left , why doe wee not challenge these extraordinary functions ? Doe we not rather thinke , since it pleased him to beginne with those Offices which should not continue , that herein he purposely intended to teach vs , that if wee haue the same heauenly busines done we should not be curious in the circumstances of the persons : But for those ordinary callings of Pastors and Doctors ( intended to perpetuity ) with what forehead can hee denie them to bee in our Church ? How many haue we that conscionably teach and feede , or rather feede by teaching ? Call them what you please , Superintendents ( that is ) Bishoppes , Prelates , Priests , Lecturers , Parsons , Vicars , &c. If they preach Christ truly , vpon true inward abilities , vpon a sufficient ( if not perfect ) outward vocation : such a one ( let all Histories witnesse ) for the substance , as hath bin euer in the Church since the Apostles times : they are Pastors and Doctors allowed by Christ : We stand not vpon circumstances and appendances of the fashions of ordination , manner of choyce , attire , titles , maintenance : but if for substance these be not true Pastors and Doctors Christ had neuer any in his Church , since the Apostles left the earth . All the difficulty is in our outward calling : Let the Reader graunt our graue and learned Bishoppes to be but Christians , and this will easily be euinced lawfull , euen by their rules : For , if with them euery plebeian artificer hath power to elect and ordaine by vertue of his Christian profession ( the act of the worthiest standing for all ) how can they deny this right to persons qualified ( besides common graces ) with wisedome , learning , experience , authority ) ? Eyther their Bishoppricke makes them no Christians ( a position which of all the world , besides this Secte , would be hissed at ) or else their handes imposed are thus farr ( by their rules of Separatists ) effectual . Now your best course is ( like to an Hare that runnes backe from whence she was started ) to flye to your first hold : No Church , therefore no Ministery : So now , not the Church hath deuised the Ministery , but the Ministery hath deuised the Church : I follow you not in that idle Circle : Thence you haue beene hunted already : But now , since I haue giuen account of ours : I pray you tell me seriously , Who deuised your Office of Ministery ? I dare say , not Christ , not his Apostles , not their Successors : What Church euer in the world can be produced ( vnlesse in case of extremity for one turn ) whose conspiring multitude made themselues ministers at pleasure ? what rule of Christ prescribes it ? What Reformed Church euer did , or doth practise it ? VVhat example warrants it ? where haue the inferiors laid hands vpon their Superiors ? VVhat Congregation of Christendome in all records affoorded you the necessary patterne of an vnteaching Pastor , or an vnfeeding Teacher ? It is an old policy of the faulty to complaine first : Certainely there was neuer Popish Legend a more errand deuise of man then some parts of this ministery of yours , so much gloried in for sincere correspondence to the first institution . SECTION . XXVIII . Confused Communion of the prophane . YOVR scornefull exception at the confused communion of the prophane multitude sauors strong of a Pharisee , who thought it sinne to conuerse ( cum terrae filijs ) the base vulgar , and whose very Phylacteries did say , Touch me not , for I am cleaner then thou . This multitude is prophane ( you say ) and this communion confused : If some be prophane , yet not all , for then could be no confusion in the mixture : If some be not prophane , why do you not loue them as much as you hate the other ? If all maine truthes be taught amongst some godly , some prophane : why will you more shunn those prophane , then cleaue to those truths , and those godly ? If you haue duely admonished him , and detested and bewailed his sinne ; what is another mans prophanenesse to you ? If prophanenesse be not punished , or confusion be tolerated , it is their sinne , whome it concerneth to redresse them : If the Officers sinne , must we runne from the Church ? It is a famous and pregnant protestation of God by Ezechiell : The righteousnesse of the righteous shall be vpon him , and the wickednesse of the wicked shall be vpon himself . And if the fathers sower Grapes cannot hurt the childrens teeth , how much lesse shall the neighbours ? But whither will you runne from this communion of the prophane ? The same fault you find with the Dutch and French ; yea in your owne . How well you haue auoided it in your separation , let Master White , George Iohnson , Master Smith be sufficient witnesses , whose plentifull reports of your knowne vncleannesses , smothered mischiefes , malitious proceedings , corrupt packings , communicating with knowne offenders , bolstering of sinns , and willing conniuences , as they are shamefull to relate , so might well haue stopt your mouth from excepting at our confused Communion of the prophane . SECTION . XXIX . Our Errours intermingled with Truth . HOw many and grieuous errors are mingled with our Truths shall appeare sufficiently in the sequell ; If any want , let it be the fault of the accuser , it is enough for the Church of Amsterdam to haue no errors . But ours are grieuous : Name them , that our shame may be equall to your griefe : So many they are , and so grieuous that your Martyr , when he was vrged to instance , could find none but our opinion concerning Christs descent into hell ; and except hee had ouer-reached , not that . Call you our Doctrines some generall truthes ? Looke into our Confessions , Apologies , Articles , and compare them with any , with all other Churches , and if you finde a more particular , found , Christian , absolute profession of all fundamētall truths in any Church since Christ ascēded into heauen , renounce vs , as you do , & we wil seperate vnto you : But these truths are not soundly practised : Let your Pastor teach you , that if errours of practise should be stood vpon , there could bee no true Church vpon earth : Pull out your owne beame first : we willingly yeeld this to be one of your truths , that no truth can sanctifie errour : That one heresie makes an Hereticke : but learne withall , that euery error doth not pollute all truthes : That there is hay and stubble which may burne , yet both the foundation stand , and the builder be saued : Such is ours at the worst , why doe you condemne where God will saue ? No Scripture is more worne with your tongus and pennes , then that of the leauen . 1. Cor. 5. 6. If you would compare Christs leauen with Pauls , you should satisfie your selfe . Christ sayes the kingdome of heauen is as leauen ; Paule saies grosse sin is leauen : Both leauens the whole lumpe : neither may be taken precisely , but in resemblance : not of equalitie , ( as he said well ) but of qualitie : For notwithstanding the leauen of the kingdome , some part you grant is vnsanctified ; So notwithstanding the leauen of sinne , some ( which haue striuen against it to their vtmost ) are not sowred : The leauening in both places must extend onely to whom it is intended : the subiects of regeneration in the one ; the partners of sinne in the other : So our Sauiour saith , Yee are the salt of the earth ; Yet too much of the earth is vnseasoned : The trueth of the effect must bee regarded in these speeches not the quantity : It was enough for Saint Paule to shew them by this similitude , that grosse sins where they are tollerated haue a power to infect others : whether it be ( as Hierome interprets it ) by ill example , or by procurement of iudgements : and thereupon the incestuous must be cast out : All this tends to the excōmunicating of the euill , not to the seperating of the good : Did euer Paule say , if the incestuous be not cast out , seperate from the Church . Show vs this , and wee are yours : Else it is a shame for you that you are not ours : If Antichrist holde many truths , and we but many , we must needes bee proud of your prayses : We holde all his truths , and haue showed you , how we hate all his forgeries , no lesse then you hate vs : Yet the mistery of iniquity is still spun in the Church of England ; but with a siner threed : So fine that the very eyes of your malice cannot see it , yet none of our least motes haue escaped you : Thankes bee to our good God , wee haue the great mistery of godlinesse so fairely and happily spunne amongst vs , as all , but you , blesse God with vs , and for vs : As soone shall you finde charity and peace in your English Church , as heresie in our Church of England . SECTION . XXX . Whether our Prelacy be Antichristian . TO the particular instances : I aske where are the proud towers of their Vniuersall Hierarchy : You answere roundly : One in Lambeth , another in Fulham , &c. What Vniuersall ? Did euer any of our Prelates challenge all the world as his Diocesse ? Is this simplicitie , or malice ? If your Pastor tell vs that as well a world as a Prouince , Let me returne it ; If he may be Pastor ouer a Parlour full : Why not of a Citie : And if of a Citie , why not of a Nation ? But these you will proue vnruinated Towers of that Babell : You aske therefore whether the office of Archbishops , Bishops , and the rest of that ranke , were not in Queene Maries daies , partes of that accursed Hierarchy , and members of that man of sin . Doubtlesse they were : Who can deny it ? But now ( say you ) they haue the same Ecclesiasticall iurisdiction continued : This is your miserable Sophistry : Those Popish Arch-bishoppes , and Bishoppes and Clergie were members of Antichrist ; not as Church-Gouernours , but as Popish : While they swore subiection to him , while they defended him , whiles they worshipt him aboue all that is called God , and extorted this homage from others , how could they be other but limmes of that man of sinne : shall others therefore which defie him , resist , trample vpon him , spend their liues and labours in oppugnation of him be necessarily in the same case , because in the same roome ? Let me helpe your Anabaptists with a sound Argument : The Princes , Peeres and Magistrates of the land in Queene Maries dayes were shoulders and armes of Antichrist ; their calling is still the same ; therefore now they are such : Your Master Smith vppon no other ground disclaimeth Infants Baptisme , crying out that this is the maine relique of Antichristianisme . But see how like a wise Master you confute your selfe : They are still members of the bodie , though the head ( the Pope ) bee cutte off : The head is Antichrist , therefore the body without the head is no part of Antichrist : Hee that is without the head Christ , is no member of Christ ; so contrarily : I heare you say , the very Iurisdiction and office is here Antichristian , not the abuse : What ? in them , and not in al Bishops since , and in the Apostles times ? Alas , who are you that you should oppose al Churches & times ? ignorance of Church-story , & not distinguishing betwixt substances and appendances , personall abuses , and callings , hath ledde you to this errour : Yet since you haue reckoned vp so many Popes , let me helpe you with more : Was there not one in Lambeth when Doctor Cranmer was there ? One in Fulham when Ridly was there : One in Worcester when Latimer was there ? One at Winchester when Philpot was there ? We will goe higher ; Was not Hilarius at Arles , Paulinus at Nola. Primasius at Vtica , Eucherius at Lyons , Cyrill at Alexandria , Chrysostome at Constantinople , Augustine at Hippo , Ambrose at Milaine ? What should I be infinite ? Was not Cyprian at Carthage ? Euodius and after him Ignatius in S. Iohns time at Antioch , Polycarpus at Smyrna , Philip at Cesarea , Iames and Simeon and Cleophas at Hierusalem , and ( by much consent of Antiquity ) Titus in Creet , Timothy at Ephesus , Marke at Alexandria : yea to be short , was there not euery where in all ages , an allowed superiority of Church-Gouernours vnder this title ? Looke into the frequent Subscriptions of all Councels , and their Canons ? Looke into the Registers of all times , and finde your selfe aunswered : Let reuerend Caluin be our Aduocate : I would desire no other words to confute you , but his : He shall tell you that euen in the Primitiue Church , the Presbiters chose one out of their number in euery City , whom they titled their Bishop , least dissention should arise from equality . Let Hemingius teach you that this was the practise of the purest Church : Thus it was euer , and if Princes haue pleased to annexe either large maintenances , or stiles of higher dignity , and respect vnto these , doe their additions annihilate them ? Hath their double honour made voide their callings ? Why more then extreme needinesse ? If Aristotle would not allow a Priest to be a tradesman , yet Paul could yeeld to homely Tent-making , if your Elders grow rich or noble , doe they cease to bee , or beginne to be vnlawfull ? But in how many volumes hath this point beene fully discussed ? I list not to gleane after their full Carts . SECTION . XXXI . The iudgement and practise of other Reformed Churches . FRom your owne Verdict you descend to the testimonies of all reformed Churches : I blush to see so wilfull a slaunder fall from the penne of a Christian . That all Reformed Churches renounce our Prelacy as Antichristian , what one hath done it ? Yea , what one forraine Diuine of note , hath not giuen to our Clergy the right hand of fellowshippe ? so farre is it from this , that I. Alasco was the allowed Bishoppe of our first Reformed strangers in this land , so farre that when your Doctor found himselfe vrged ( by M. Spr. ) with a cloud of witnesses for our Church and ministery , as Bucer , Martyr , Fagius , Alasco , Caluin , Beza , Bullinger , Gualter , Simler , Zanchius , Iunius , Rollocus , and others , he had nothing to say for himselfe , but Though you come against vs with Horse-men and Chariots , yet wee will remember the name of the Lord our God , and turnes it off with the accusation of a Popish plea , and reference to the practise of the Reformed : And if therefore they haue so renounced it , because their practise receiues it not : VVhy like a true make-bate doe you not say , that our Churches haue so renounced their Gouernement ? These sisters haue learned to differ , and yet to loue , and reuerence each other : and in these cases to enioy their owne formes , without prescription of necessity , or censure . Let reuerend Beza bee the Trumpet of all the rest ; who tells you that the Reformed English Churches cōtinue , vpheld by the authority of Bishops , & Archbishopps , that they haue had men of that ranke , both famous martyrs , and worthy Pastors and Doctors : and lastly congratulates this blessing to our Church : or let Hemingius tell you the iudgement of the Danish Church : Iudicat caeteros ministros &c. it iudgeth saith he , that other ministers should obey their Bishoppes in all things , which make to the edification of the Church , &c. But what doe I oppose any to his name-lesse , All ? his owne silence confutes him enough in my silence . SECTION . XXXII . Our Synodes determination of things indifferent . THere was neuer a more idle and beggerly cauill then your next : your Christian Reader must needs thinke you hard driuen for quarrels , when you are faine to fetch the Popes infallibility out of our Synode , whose flat decree it was of old : That euen general Councels may erre , & haue erred : But wherin doth our facred Synod assume this infallibility , in her determinations ? VVherefore is a Synode , if not to determine ? But , of thinges reputed indifferent ? VVhat else are subiect to the constitutions of men ? Good and euill are either directly , or by necessarie sequell ordered by God : these are aboue humane power . VVhat haue men to doe , if not with things indifferent ? All necessary thinges are determined by God indifferent by men from God , which are as so many particulars , extracts from the generals of God : These things ( saith learned Caluin ) are indifferent , and in the power of the Church : Either you must allow the Church this , or nothing . But these decrees are absolute , what lawes can be without a commaund ? The law that ties not , is no law : No more then that ( saith Austen ) which tyes vs to euill . But for all men , and all times ? How for all ? For none ( I hope ) but our owne , And why not for them ? but without exception , and limitation : Do not thus wrong our Church : Our late Archbishopp ( if it were not piacular for you to reade ought of his ) could haue taught you in his publique writings , these fiue limitations of inioyned ceremonies : First , that they be not against the word of God : Secondly , that iustification or remission of sinnes be not attributed to them : Thirdly , That the Church bee not troubled with their multitude : Fourthly , that they be not decreede as necessary , and not to be changed : And lastly , that men be not so tyed to them , but that by occasion they may be omitted so it be without offence and contempt , you see our limits : but your feare is in this last , contrary to his . He stands vpon offence in omitting , you in vsing : As if it were a iust offence to displease a beholder , no offence to displease and violate authority : VVhat law could euer be made to offend none ? Wise Cato might haue taught you this , in Liuie , that no lawe can bee commodious to all : Those lippes which preserue knowledge , must impart so much of it to their hearers , as to preuent their offence : Neither must Law-giuers , euer fore-see what constructions will bee of their laws , but what ought to be : Those thin●● which your consistory imposes , may you keepe them if you list ? Is not the willing neglect of your owne Parlor-decrees punished with excommunication ? And now what is all this to infallibilitie ? The sacred Synod determines these indifferent rites for decency and comlinesse to be vsed of those , whom it concernes , therefore it arrogates to it selfe infallibilitie : A conclusion fit for a separatist . You stumble at the title of sacred : euery straw lies in your way ; your Calepine could haue taught you ●hat houses , Castles , religious businesses , olde age it selfe , haue this stile giuen them : And Virgill ( vittasque resoluit , sacrati capitis ) no Epithete is more ordinary to Councelles and Synods : The reason whereof may be fetched from that inscription of the Elibertine Synode ; of those nineteene Bishops is said : VVhen the holy and religious Bishops were set : How fewe Councels haue not had this Title ? To omit the late ; The holy Synod of Carthage , vnder Anastasius : The holy and peaceable Synode at Antioch : The holy Synode of God and Apostolicall , at Rome vnder Iulius . The holy and great Sinode at Nice : And not to be endlesse : The holy Synod of Laodicea ( though but prouinciall ) . VVhat doe these Idle exceptions argue but want of greater ? SECTION . XXXIII . Sinnes sold in our Courts . SOme great men when they haue done ill , outface their shame with enacting Lawes to make their sinnes lawfull . While you thus charge our practise , you bewray your owne : Who hauing seperated from Gods Church , deuise slaunders to colour your sinne : Wee must bee shamefull , that you may bee innocent : You load our Ecclesiasticall consistories with a shameles reproach : Farre bee it from vs to iustifie any mans personall sinnes ; yet it is safer sinning to the better part : Fie on these odious comparisons : sinnes as saleable as at Rome ? who knowes not that , to be the Mart of all the world ? Periuries , murders , treasons are there bought & sold : when euer in ours ? The Popes Cofers can easily confute you alone : What tell you vs of these , let me tell you : Mony is as fit an aduocate in a consistory , as fauour or malice : These , some of yours haue complained of , as bitterly , as you of ours . As if we liked the abuses in Courts : as if corrupt executions of wholesome lawes must be imputed to the Church , whose wrongs they are . No lesse haynous , nor more true is that which followeth . True Elders ( not yours ) should bee indeede 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : This we call for , as vehemently ( not so tumultuously ) as your selues . That they should feede their flockes with word and doctrine , we require more then you : That Patrons present , Bishoppes institute , Arch-deacons induct some , which are vnable , we graunt and bewaile : But that our Church-lawes iustifie them , wee denie , and you slaunder ? For our law ( if you know not ) requires , that euery one to be admitted to the Ministery , should vnderstand the Articles of Religion , not onely as they are compendiously set downe in the Creede , but as they are at large in our booke of Articles ; neither vnderstand them onely , but be able to proue them sufficiently out of the scripture , and that not in English onely , but in Latine also : This competency would proue him ( for knowledge ) 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : If this be not performed , blame the persons , cleare the law . Profound Master Hooker telles you , that both arguments from light of nature , lawes , and statutes of Scripture , the Canons that are taken out of ancient Synodes , the Decrees and constitutions of sincerest times , the sentences of all Antiquity , and in a word , euery mans full consent and conscience , is against ignorance in them that haue charge and cure of soules . And in the same booke ; Did any thing more aggrauate the crime of Ieroboams Apostasie , then that hee chose to haue his Clergie the scumme and refuse of his whole land : Let no man spare to te●l it them , they are not faithfull towards God ; that burden wilfully his Church , with such swarmes of vnworthie creatures : Neither is it long , since a zealous and learned Sermon dedicated to our present Lord Arch-bishoppe by his owne Chaplaine , hath no lesse taxed this abuse , whether of insufficiency , or negligence ( though with more discretion ) then can be expected from your malicious penne : Learne henceforth not to diffuse crimes to the innocent . For the rest : your Baal in our dispensations for pluralities , would thus pleade for himselfe : First hee would bidde you learne of your Doctor to distinguish of sinnes : sinnes ( saith he ) are either controuertible , or manifest : if controuertible or doubtfull , men ought to bear one with anothers different iudgment ; if they doe not , &c. they sinne : such is this : if some be resolued , others doubt : and in whole volumes plead , whether conuenience , or necessity : how could your charity compare these with sinnes euicted ? Secondly , he would tell you that these dispensations are intended and directed , not against the offence of God , but the danger of humane lawes : not securing from sinne , but from losse : But , for both these points of Non-residence and insufficiency , if you sought not rather strife then satisfaction : his Maiesties speech in the Confer . at Hampton Court , might haue staied the course of your quarrelous pen : No reasonable minde , but would rest in that gratious and Royall determination . Lastly , Why looke you not to your owne Elders at home ? euen your handfull hath not auoided this crime of Non-residency : What wonder is it , if our world of men haue not escaped ? SECTION . XXXIIII . Our loyaltie to Princes cleared , theirs questioned . YOV that confesse our wisedome and honesty , must now pleade for your owne : your hope is not more of vs , then our feare of you . To depose Kings and dispose Kingdomes is a proud worke : you want power , but what is your will ? For excommunication it is cleare enough : While you fully holde that euery priuate man hath as much power in this censure , as the Pastor ; and that Princes must bee equally subiect with them to these their censures : Let any man now deuise , if the Brownists could haue a King , how that King could stand one day vnexcommunicated ? Or if this censure meddle onely with his soule , not with his Scepter : How more then credible is it , that some of your assemblies in Queene Elizabeths daies concluded , that shee was not ( euen in our sense ) supreame head of the Church , neither had authority to make lawes Ecclesiasticall in the Church : It is well if you wil disclaime it : But you know your receiued position ; That no one Church is superior to other : No authority therefore can reuerse this Decree ; your will may doe it : yea what better then rebellion appeares in your next clause ? While you accuse our loyaltie to an earthly King , as treasonable to the King of the Church , Christ Iesus : If our loyaltie bee a sinne , where is yours ? If we be traytors in our obedience : what doe you make of him that commands it ? VVhether you would haue vs each man to play the Rex , and erect a new gouernement , or whether you accuse vs as rebels to Christ in obeying the old : God blesse King Iames from such subiects . But whose is that so vnsauorie weede ; No Bishoppe , no King ? Know you whom you accuse ? let me shew you your aduersary ; it is King Iames himselfe in his Hampton Conference : is there not now suspition in the word ? surely you had cause to feare that the King would proue no good subiect : Belike , not to Christ : VVhat doe you else in the next , but proclaime his opposition to the King of KINGS ? or ours in not opposing his ? As if we might say with the Israelites . O Lord our God , other Lords besides thee haue ruled vs : If we would admit each of your Elders to bee so many Kings in the Church , wee should stoope vnder Christs ordinances : Shewe vs your Commission , and let it appeare , whether we be enemies , or you vsurpers ; Alas , you both refuse the rule of his true Deputy , and set vp false ; Let this fearefull doome of Christ light where it is most due : Euen so let thine enemies perish O Lord. SECTION . XXXV . Errours of Free-will , &c. fained vpon the Church of England . GOe on to slaunder : Euen that which you say you will not speake , you doe speake with much spight and no truth : VVhat hath our Church to doe with errours of vniuersall grace or freewill : Errors which her Articles doe flatly oppose : what shamelesnesse is this ? Is shee guilty euen of that which shee condemnes ? if some few priuate iudgements shall conceiue , or bring forth an error , shal the whole Church doe penance ? would God that wicked and heretical Anabaptisme , did not more growe vpon you then those errours vpon vs : you had more neede to defend , then accuse : But see Christian Reader , how this man dragges in crimes vpon vs , as Cacus did his Oxen : VVe doe ( forsooth ) part stakes with God in our conuersion : wherein ? in a deuised Ministery : the meanes of conuersion ; we ll fetch 't about : There may be a Ministery without a conuersion ; and ( êconuerso ) There may be a conuersion without a Ministery : VVhere now are the stakes parted ? yet thus we partstakes ( with the Apostle ) that wee are Gods fellow-labourers in this great worke : Hee hath separated vs to it , & ioyned vs with him in it ; it is he ( as we haue proued ) that hath deuised our Ministery : yea your selfe shall proue it : it is his peculiar to appoint the outward Ministerie , that giues the inward grace . But hath not God giuen inward grace , by our outward Ministery ? Your hearts shall be our witnesses : What will follow therfore , but that our Ministerie is his peculiar appointment ? SECTION . XXXVI . Kneeling at the Sacrament of the Lords Supper . OVR Kneeling you deriue ( like a good Herald ) from the errour of Transubstantiation : but to set downe the descent of this pedigree ; will trouble you : wee doe vtterly denie it , and challenge your proofe : How new a fiction Transubstantiation is , appeares out of Berengaries recantation to Pope Nicholas : The errour was then so young , it had not learned to speake ; shew vs the same noueltie in our kneeling : Till of late men held not the bread to be God ; of old they haue held it sacred : This is the gesture of reuerence in our prayer at the receite , as Master Burgesse well interpreted it , not of Idolatrous adoration of the bread . This was most-what in the eleuation : the abolishing wherof cleares vs of this imputation : you know we hate this conceit , why doe you thus force wrongs vpon the innocent ? Neither are we alone in this vse : The Church of Bohemie allowes , and practises it : and why is this errour lesse palpable in the wafers of Geneua ? If the King should offer vs his hand to kisse , we take it vpon our kneees : how much more when the King of heauen giues vs his sonne in these pledges ? But if there were not something more then iust reuerence , why do we solemnely kneel at the Communion not at Baptisme ? Can you find no difference ? In this ( besides that there is both a more liuely and feeling signification of the thing represented ) we are the parties , but in the other , witnesses : This therefore I dare boldly say ; that if your partner M. Smith should euer ( which God forbid ) perswade you to rebaptise , your fittest gesture ( or any others at full age ) would be to receiue that Sacramentall water , kneeling : How glad you are to take all scraps , that fall from any of ours for your aduantage ? would to God this obseruation of your malitious gatherings would make all our reuerend bretheren w●ary of their censures : Surely , no idolatry can be worse then that Popish 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . The Bread , and the Crucifixe , striue for the hier place ; if we should therefore be so tyed to kneele before the bread , as they are tyed to kneele before the Crucifixe , their sentence were iust : They adore the Crucifixe , not wee the bread ; they pray to the Crucifixe , not we to the bread , they direct their deuotions ( at the best ) by the Crucifixe to their Sauiour , wee doe not so by the bread , wee kneele no more to the bread , then to the Pulpit when we ioyne our prayers with the Ministers : But our quarrell is not with them ; you that can approue their iudgments in dislike , might learne to followe them in approbation , and peaceable Communion with the Church : if there be a galled place you will be sure to light vpon that , Your charitie is good : whatsoeuer your wisedome be . SECTION . XXXVII . Whether our Ordinary and Seruice-Booke , be made Idolles by vs. YET more Idolatry ? And which is more , New , and strange ; such ( I dare say ) as wil neuer be found in the two first Commandements , Behold here two new Idols , Our Ordinary , and our Seruice-booke , a speaking Idoll , and a written Idoll . Calecute hath one strange Deity the diuell , Siberia many , whose people worship euery day what they see first . Rome hath many merry Saints : but Saint Ordinary , and Saint Seruice-booke , were neuer heard of till your Canonization . In earnest , doe you thinke wee make our Ordinary an Idoll ? what else ? You kneele deuoutly to him when you receiue either the Oath or absolution . This must needs be religious adoration : is there no remedie ? You haue twise kneeled to our Vice-Chauncellour , when you were admitted to your degree ; you haue oft kneeled to your parents , and Godfathers to receiue a blessing , did you make Idols of them ? the partie to be ordained kneeles vnder the hand of the presbitery : dooth hee religiously adore them ? Of olde they were wont to kisse the handes of these Bishoppes , so they did to Baal : God and our Superiours haue had euer one and the same outward gesture : Though here , not the Agent is so much regarded ; as the action : if your Ordinary would haue suffered you to haue done this peece of Idolatrie , you had neuer separated . But the true God-Bell and Dragon of England is the humane-Diuine-Seruice-Booke : Let vs see what ashes or lumpes of pitch this Daniel brings : Wee worship God in and by it , as Papists doe by their Images : In deed we worship God in , and by the prayers contayned in it : Why should we not ? Tell mee why is it more idolatry for a man to worship God in , and by a praier read , or got by hart , then by a praier conceiued ? I vtter both , they are both mine , if the heart speake them both , feelingly and deuoutly , where lies the Idoll ? In a conceiued prayer , is it not possible for a mans thought to stray from his tongue ? in a prayer learned by heart , or read , is it not possible for the heart to ioyne with the tongue ? If I pray therfore in spirit , and hartely vtter my desires to God , whether in mine owne wordes , or borrowed ( and so made mine ) what is the offence ? But ( say you ) if the Lord Iesus in his Testament haue not commanded any such Booke , it is accursed , and abhominable : But say I : if the Lord Iesus hath not any where forbidden such a booke , it is not accursed nor abhominable : Shew vs the place where , that we may know it with you : Nay , but I must shew you where the Apostles vsed any such seruice-booke : shew you mee , where the Apostles baptized in a Basen : or where they receiued women to the Lords table : ( for your 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 1. Cor. II. will not serue ) shew me that the Bible was distinguish't into Chapters and verses in the Apostles time : shewe mee that they euer celebrated the Sacrament of the Supper at any other time then euening , as your Anabaptists now doe : shew me that they vsed one prayer before their Sermons alwaies , another after , that they preached euer vpon a Text : where they preached ouer a Table : or lastly , shewe me where the Apostles vsed that prayer which you made before your last prophecy ; and a thousand such circumstances , What an idle plea is this from the Apostolike times ? And if I should tell you that Saint Peter celebrated with the Lords prayer , you will not beleeue it : yet you know the Historie . But let the Reader know that your quarrell is not against the matter , but against the booke , not as they are prayers , but as stinted , or prescribed : Wherein , all the world besides your selues are Idolaters : Behold all Churches that were , or are , are partners with vs in this crime . Oh Idolatrous Geneua , and all French , Scottish , Danish , Dutch Churches : All which both haue their set prayers with vs , and approue them . Quod ad formulam , &c. as concerning a forme of pra●ers and rites Ecclesiastical ( saith reuerend Caluin ) : I do greatly allow that it should bee set and certaine , from which it should not bee lawfull for Pastors in their function to depart . Iudge now of the spirit of these bold controllers , that dare thus condemne all Gods Churches , through the world as Idolatrous : but since you call for Apostolike examples : did not the Apostle Paul vse one set forme of apprecations , of benedictions ? What were these but lesser prayers ? The quantitie varies not the kinde : Will you haue yet auncienter precedents ? The Priest was appointed of olde to vse a set forme vnder the law , Num. 6. 23. so the people , Deut. 26. 3. 4 , 5. &c. 15. Both of them a stinted Psalme for the Sabboth , Ps. 92. What saith your Doctor to these ? Because the Lorde ( saith he ) gaue formes of prayers and Psalmes , therefore the Prelates may : Can we thinke that Ieroboam had so slender a reason for his Calues ? Marke ( good Reader ) the shifts of these men : This aunswerer calles for examples , and will abide no stinting of prayers , because we shew no patternes from Scripture : We do shew patternes from Scripture , and now their Doctor saith , God appointed it to them of olde , must we therefore doe it ? So , whether we bring examples or none , we are condemned : But Mast. Doctor , whom I beseech you should we follow , but God in his own seruices ? If God haue not appointed it , you crie out vpon inuentions : if God haue appointed it , 〈…〉 , we may not follow it : shew then where 〈…〉 inioyned an ordinary seruice to himselfe , that was not ceremoniall ( as this plainly is not ) : which should not be a direction for vs ? But if stinting our prayers be a fault ( for as yet you meddle not with our blasphemous Collects ) it is well that the Lords prayer it selfe beareth vs company , and is no small part of our Idolatrie : VVhich , though it were giuen principally as a rule to our prayers , yet since the matter is so heauenly , a●d most wisely framed to the necessity of all Christian hearts , to denie that it may be vsed intirely in our Sauiours wordes , is no better then a fanaticall curiousnesse : yeelde one and all ; for if the matter be more diuine , yet the stint is no lesse faulty : This is not the lest part of our patcherie : except you vnrip this , the rest you cannot . But might not God be purely and perfectly worshipped without it ? Tell mee , Might not God bee purely and perfectly worshipped without Churches , without houses , without garments , yea without handes or feete ? In a word , could not God bee purely worshipped , if you were not ? Yet would you not seeme a superfluous creature : speake in your selfe : Might not God be intirely worshipped with pure and holy worship , though there were no other bookes in the world , but the Scripture ? If yea , as who can denie it , that knowes what the worshippe of God meaneth ? VVhat then doe the Fathers and Doctors , and learned Interpreters ? To the fire with all those curious artes and volumes , as your Predecessors called them : Yea let me put you in minde , that God was purely and perfectly worshipped by the Apostolicke Church before euer 〈…〉 Testament was written : See therefore the idlenesse of your proofes ; God may be serued without a prescription of prayer , but ( if all Reformed Churches in Christendome erre not ) better with it : The word of God is perfect , and admits no addition : Cursed were we , if we should add ought to it : Cursed were that which should be added : But cursed be they that take ought from it , and dare say , ye shall not pray thus , OVR FATHER , &c. Doe we offer to make our prayers Canonicall , do we obtrude them as parts of Gods word ? VVhy cauill you thus ? VVhy doth the same prayer written adde to the worde , which spoken addeth not ? Because conceiued prayer is commanded , not the other : But first , not your particular prayer : Secondly , without mention either of conception , or memorie , God commaunds vs to pray in spirit , and with the heart : These circumstances onely as they are deduced from his Generals , so are ours : But whence soeuer it please you to fetch our Booke of publique Prayer , from Rome or Hell ; or to what Image soeuer you please to resemble it : Let moderate spirits heare what the pretious Iewell of England saith of it : VVee haue come as neere as we could to the Church of the Apostles , &c. neither onely haue we framed our doctrine , but also our Sacraments , and the forme of publique prayers according to their Rites and Institutions . Let no Iewe now obiect Swines-flesh to vs : Hee is no iudicious man ( that I may omit the mention of Cranmer , Buc●r Ridley , Taylor , &c. some of whose handes were in it , all whose voices were for it ) with whome one Iewell will not ouer-weigh tenne thousand Separatists . SECTION . XXXVIII . Marriage not made a Sacrament by the Church of England . HOw did confirmation escape this number ? how did Ordination ? it was your ouer-sight , I feare , not your charity : some things seeme , and are not : such is this your number of our Sacraments : you wil needes haue vs take in marriage into this ranke : why so ? wee doe not ( you confesse ) call it a Sacrament as the vulgar , mis-interpreting Pauls Mysterium , Ep. 5. why should we not if we so esteemed it ? wherefore serue names , but to denotate the nature of things ? If we were not ashamed of the opinion , wee could not be ashamed of the worde : No more ( say you ) did Christ and his Apostles call Baptisme and the Supper , Sacraments ; but we doe , and you with vs : See now whether this clause doe not confute your last : where hath Christ euer said , There are two Sacraments ? Yet you dare say so : what is this but in your sense an addition to the word : yea , we say flatly , there are but two : yet we doe ( you say ) in truth create it a Sacrament : how oft , and how resolutely hath our Church maintained against Rome , that none but Christ immediatly can create Sacraments ? If they had this aduantage against vs , how could wee stand ? How wrongfull is this force , to fasten an opinion vpon our Church which shee hath condemned ? But wherein stands this our creation ? It is true , the partyes to bee married , and their marriage represent Christ , and his Church , and their spirituall vnion : Beware least you strike God through our sides : what hath Gods spirit said , either lesse , or other then this ? Ephe. 5. 25. 26. 27. & . 32. Doth he not make Christ the husband , the Church his spouse ? Doth he not from that sweet coniunction , and the effects of it : argue the deere respects that should bee in marriage ? Or what doth the Apostle allude elesewhere vnto , when he saies ( as Moses of Eue ) we are flesh of Christs flesh , and bone of his bone ? And how famous amongst the ancient is that resemblance of Eue taken out of Adams side sleeping , to the Church taken out of Christs side sleeping on the Crosse ? Since marriage therefore so clearely represents this mistery : and this vse is holy and sacred : what error is it , to say that mariage is consecrated to this mistery ? But what is the Element : the Ring ; These things agree not ; you had before made the two parties to be the matter of this Sacrament ? What is the matter of the Sacrament , but the Element ? If they be the matter , they are the Element ; and so not the Ring ; both cannot be ; if you will make the two parties to bee but the receiuers ; how doth all the mistery lie in their representation ? Or if the Ring bee the Element , then all the mistery must be in the Ring , not in the parties : Labour to bee more perfect , ere you make any more newe Sacraments : but this Ring is laide vpon the seruice-booke : why not ? For readinesse , not for holinesse : Nay , but it is hallowed ( you say ) by the booke : If it be a Sacramentall Element , it rather hallowes the booke , then the booke it : you are not mindful enough for this trade : But what exorcismes are vsed in this hallowing ? Or who euer held it any other then a ciuill pledge of fidelitie ? Then follow the wordes of consecration : I pray you , what difference is there betwixt hallowing , and consecration ? The Ring was hallowed before by the booke ; now it must be consecrated : How idlely ? by what wordes ? In the name of the Father , &c. These words you know are spoken after the Ring is put on : was it euer heard of , that a Sacramentall Element was consecrated after it was applyed ? see how ill your slaunders are digested by you : The place is the Church , the time the Lords day , the minister is the actor , and is it not thus in all other reformed Churches aswell as ours . Behod , we are not alone : al Churches in the world ( if this wil do it ) are guilty of three Sacraments : Tell me , would you not haue marriage solemnized publiquely ? You cannot mislike : though your founder seemes to require nothing here but notice giuen to witnesses , and then to bed : Well , if publique ; you account it withall , a graue and weighty businesse : therefore such , as must be sanctified by publike prayer : What place is fitter for publicke prayer then the Church ? Who is fitter to offer vp the publike prayer , then the Minister ? who should rather ioyne the parties in marriage , then the publique deputie of that God , who solemnly ioyned the first couple ? who rather then he which in the name of God may best blesse them ? The prayers which accompany this solemnity are parts of Gods worshippe , not the contract it selfe : This is a mixt action , therefore compounded of Ecclesiasticall and ciuill : imposed on the Minister , not vpon necessity but expedience : neither essentiall to him , but accidentally , annexed , for greater conuenience . These two friuolous grounds haue made your cauill eyther very simple , or very wilfull . SECTION . XXXIX . Commutation of Penance in our Church . SEe if this man be not hard driuen for accusations when hee is faine to repeate ouer the very same crime , which hee largely vrged before : All the world will know that you want variety , when you send in these twise-sodde Coleworts : Somewhat yet we finde new , Commutation of Penance ; Our Courts would tell you , that here is nothing dispensed with , but some ceremonie of shame in the confession : which in the greater sort is exchanged ( for a common benefit of the poore ) into a pecuniary mulct ; yet ( say they ) not so , as to abridge the Church of her satisfaction , by the confession of the offender : and if you graunt the ceremony deuised by them , why doe you finde fault that it is altered , or commuted by them ? As for absolution , you haue a spight at it , because you sought it , and were repulsed : If the censures be but their owne ( so you hold ) why blame you the menaging of them in what manne● seemes best to the authors : This power is no more a limme of the Prelacy , then our Prelacy is that beast in the Reuelation : and our Prelacy holdes it selfe no more Saint Iohns beast , then it holds you Saint Pauls beast . Phil. 3. 2 SECTION . XL. Oath ex officio . I Aske of auricular Confession ; you send mee to our High Commission Court : these two are much alike : But here is also very absolute necessity of confession : True ; but as in a case of iustice . not of strife to cleare a truth , not to obtaine absolution : to a bench of Iudges , not to a Priests eare ; Here are too many ghostly Fathers for an auricular Confession : But you wil mistake ; it is enough against vs , that men are constrained in these Courts to confesse against themselues : why name you these Courts onely ? Euen in others also oathes are vrged , not onely ( ex officio merclnario , but nobili ) : The honourablest Court of Starre-Chamber giues an oath in a Criminall case to the Defendant ; So doth the Chancerie , & Court of Requests : Shortly to omit forraine examples how many instāces haue you of this like proceeding in the cōmon laws of this land ? But withal you might learn that no Enquiry Ex officio may be thus made but vpō good grounds , as fame , scandal , vehement presumption , &c. going before , and giuing iust cause of suspition : Secondly , that this proceeding is not allowed in any case of crime , whereby the life , or limmes of the examined partie , may be endangered : nor yet , where there is a iust suspition of future periury vpon such inforcement : Thus is the suspected wife vrged to cleare her honesty by oath : Thus the Master of the house must cleare his truth , Exod. 22. 8. Thus Achan and Ionathan are vrged to bee their owne accusers , though not by Oath : But if perhappes any sinister course be taken by any corrupt Iusticer in their proceedings : must this be imputed to the Church ? Look you to your petty-Courts at home ; which some of your owne haue compared in these courses , not only to the Commission-Court of England , but to the Inquisition of Spaine : See there your Pastor defending himselfe to be both an accuser and Iudge in the same cause : See their proceedings Ex Officio without Commission : and if your prisons cannot witnes it , your excommunications may . SECTION . XLI . Holy-daies how obserued in the Church of England . WE haue not lost , but cast away the Idolatrous shrines of Saints : their daies wee retaine ; theirs , not for worshippe of them , which our Church condemneth , but partly for commemoration of their high deserts , and excellent examples : partly for distinction : indeede therefore Gods daies , not theirs : their praises redound to him : shew vs where we implore them , where wee consecrate daies to their seruice : The maine end of Holy-daies is for the seruice of God , and some , as Socrates sets downe of olde ( quo se a laborum contentione relaxent ) for relaxation from labor : if such daies may be appointed by the Church ( as were the Holy-daies of Purim , of the dedication of the wall of Ierusalem , the dedication of the Temple ) whose names should they rather beare ( though but for mere distinction ) then the blessed Apostles of Christ : But this is a color only : for you equally condemne those daies of Christs birth , Ascension , Circumcision , Resurrection , Annunciation , which the Church hath beyond all memory celebrated : what then is our fault ? We keepe these holy as the Lords daie : in the same manner , though not in the same degree : Indeede , we come to the Church , and worshippe the God of the Martyrs and Saints : is this yet our offence ? No : but wee abstayne from our most lawfull labor in them ; True , yet not in conscience of the day , but in obedience to the Church : If the Church shall indict a solemne fast : do not you hold it contemptuous to spend that day in lawful labour ; notwithstanding that liberty of the sixe daies which God hath giuen ? Why shall that be lawfull in a case of deiection , which may not in praise and exultation ? If you had not loued to cauil , you would rather haue accepted the Apologie , or excuse of our fister Churches in this behalfe , then aggrauated these vncharitable pleas of your owne : yet euen in this your owne Synagogue at Amsterdame ( if we may beleeue your owne ) is not altogether guiltlesse : your handes are still and your shoppes shut vpon festiuall daies ; But we accuse you not : would God this were your worst : The Masters of our Courts would tell you , that they would not care so much for this dispossession , as that it should be done by such coniurers as your selfe . SECTION . XLII . Our approbation of an vnlearned Ministery disproued . YOur want of quarrels makes you still runne ouer the same complaints : which if you redouble a thousand times will not become iust , may become tedious : God knowes how farre we are from approuing an vnleared Ministery : The protestations of our gratious King , our Bishoppes , our greatest Patrons of conformity in their publique writings , might make you ashamed of this bold assertion : we do not allow that it should be , we bewaile that it will be : our number of Parishes compared with our number of Diuines , will soone shew , that either many Parishes must haue none , or some Diuines must haue manie Congregations , or too many Congregations must haue scarce Diuine-incumbents : Our Dread Soueraigne hath promised a medicine for this disease : But withall tels you that Ierusalem was not built all on a day . The violence you speake of is commonly in case of wilful contempt , not of honest and peaceable desire of further instruction , or in supposall of some tolerable ability in the ministery forsaken : wee doe heartily pray for labourers into this haruest : we doe wish that all Israell could prophesie : we publish the Scriptures , we Preach , Catechize , Write , and ( Lorde thou knowest ) how manie of vs ▪ would doe more , if we knew what more could be done , for the information of thy people , and remedy of this ignorance which this aduersary reproues vs to approue . We doubt not but the seruice said in our Parish-Churches , is as good a seruice to God , as the extemporarie deuotions in your Parlors : But it is an vnknowne deuotion , you say : Through whose fault ? The Readers , or the Hearers , or the matter ? Distinct reading you cannot denie to the most Parishes : the matter , is easie Praiers , and English Scriptures : if the hearers be regardlesse , or in some things dull of conceite , lay the fault from the seruice to the men : All yours are free from ignorance , free from wandering conceits : we annoy you not , some knowledge is no better then some ignorance , and carelesnesse is no worse then mis-regard . SECTION . XLIII . Penan●es inioyned in the Church of England . COmming now to the Vaults of Popery , I aske for their Penances and Purgatorie ; those Popish penances , which presumptuous Confessors inioyned as satisfactorie , and meritorious vpon their bold absolutions : You send me to Sheet-penances and Purse-penances , the one , ceremonious corrections of shame , inioyned and adioyned to publique confessions of vncleannes , for the abasing of the offender , and hate of the sinne : such like , as the auncient Church thought good to vse for this purpose . Hence they were appointed ( as Tertullian speaketh ) in sackcloth and ashes , to craue the prayers of the Church , to besmeare their body with filthynesse , to throwe themselues downe before Gods minister , and Altar ; not to mention other more harde , and perhaps , no lesse ancient Rites ; and hence , were those fiue stations of the Penitent , whereby hee was at last receiued into the body of his wonted Communion : The other , a pecuniarie mulct imposed vpon some ( not all , you foulely slaunder vs ) lesse hainous offences ; as a penaltie , not as a penance ; I hope you denie not : Sodomy , Murther , Robberie , and ( which you would not ) theft it selfe , is more deepely auenged : But did euer any of ours vrge either sheet or purse as the remedy of Purgatory , or inioyne them , to auoide those infernall paines ? vnlesse we doe so , our penances are not Popish , and our answerer is idle . SECTION . XLIIII . The practises of the Church of England , concerning the Funerals of the dead . YOur next accusation is more ingeniously malicious ; our Doctrine you graunt contrarie to Purgatorie : but you will fetch it out of our practise , that we may build that which we destroy : Let vs therefore purge our selues from your Purgatorie : Wee absolue men dying Excommunicate ; A rare practise , and which yet I haue not liued to see : but if Law-makers contemne rare occurrents , surely accusers do not : Once is too much of an euill : Marke then , Doe we absolue his Soule after the departure ? No , what hath the body to doe with Purgatorie ? Yet for the body : doe we by any absolution seeke to quit it from sinne ? Nothing lesse , reason it selfe giues vs that it is vncapable either of sinne or pardon ; To lye vnburied or to be buried vnseemely , is so much a punishment , that the Heathens obiected it ( though vpon the hauocke and furie of Warre ) to the Christians : as an argument of Gods neglect . All that authoritie can do to the dead Rebell , is to put his carkasse to shame , and denie him the honour of seemely sepulture : Thus doth the Church to those which will die in wilfull contempt . Those Grecian Virgines that feared not death , were yet restrained with the feare of shame after death : it was a reall not imaginarie curse of Iezabel . The dogges shall eate Iezabel . Now the absolution ( as you call it , by an vnproper , but malicious name ) is nothing else , but a libertie giuen by the Church ( vpon repentance signified of the fault of the late offender ) of all those externall rites of decent Funerall : Death it selfe is capable of inequalitie , and vnseemelinesse : Suppose a iust Excommunication : What reason is it , that he which in his life and death would be as a Pagan , should be as a Christian in his buriall ? What is any , or all this to Purgatorie . The next intimation of our Purgatorie , is our Christian buriall , in the place , in the maner : The place Holy ground , the Church , Church-yard , &c. The manner Ringing , Singing , Praying ouer the Corps . Thus therefore you argue , we burie the body in the Church , or Church-yard , &c. therefore we hold a Purgatorie of the Soule ; a proofe not lesse strange then the opinion : We doe neither scorne the carkasses of our friends , as the old Troglodites : nor with the olde Egyptians respect them more , then when they were informed with a liuing soule : But we keepe a meane course betwixt both , vsing them as the remainders of dead men , yet as dead Christians : and as those which we hope one day to see glorious : Wee haue learned to call no place holy in it selfe ( since the Temple ) but some more holy in their vse , then others . The old ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) of the Christians , wherein their bodies slept in peace , were not lesse esteemed of them , then they are scorned of you . Galienus thought he did them a great fauour ( and so they tooke it ) when he gaue them the liberty not only of their Churches , but of their former burying-places . In the same booke Eusebius commends Astyrius a noble Senatour for his care , and cost of Marinus his buriall . Of all these Rites of Funerall , and choice of place , we professe to hold with Augustine , that they are onely the comforts of the liuing , not helpes of the dead : yet as Origen also teacheth vs , we haue learned to honour a reasonable ( much more a Christian ) soule ; and to commit the instrument or case of it honourably to the graue . All this might haue taught our answerer , that wee make account of an heauen , of a resurrection ; not of a Purgatory : But we ring hallowed belles for the soule : Do not those belles hange in hallowed Steeples too ? and do we not ring them with hallowed ropes ? What fancie is this ? If Papists were so fond of olde : their folly and their belles ( for the most part ) are both out of date ; we call them soule-bels , for that they signifie the departure of the soule , not for that they helpe the passage of the soule . This is mere boyes-play : But wee pray over , or for the dead ; Doe wee not sing to him also ? Pardon me , I must needs tell you , here is much spight , and little wit. To pray for the consummation of the glorie of all Gods elect : What is it , but Thy Kingdome come ? How vainely doe you seeke a knot in a rush , while you cauil at so holy a petition ? Goe and learne how much better it is , to call them our Brothers , which are not , in an harmelesse ouerweening , and ouer-hoping of charity : then to call them no brothers , which are in a proud and censorious vncharitablenesse : you cannot be content to tel an vntruth , but you must face it out : Let any Reader iudge how farre our practise in this , hath dissented from our doctrine ; would to God in nothing more : Yes ( saith this good friend ) in the most other things ; our wordes professe , our deeds denie : at once you make vs hypocrites , and your selues Pharises . Let all the world know , that the English Church at Amsterdam professeth nothing which it practiseth not : we may not be so holy , or so happy . Generality is a notable shelter of vntruth : Manie moe , you say , Popish deuises , yet name none , No , you cannot . Aduanced aboue al that is called God ? surely this is a paradoxe of slaunders : you meant at once to shame vs with falshoode , and to appose vs with Riddles : we say to the highest , whom haue wee in heauen but thee ? and for earth , your selfe haue granted we giue too much to Princes , ( which are earthen Gods ) and may come vnder Pauls ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) . Eyther name our Deity , or craue mercy for your wrong : certainely , though you haue not remorse , yet you shall haue shame . SECTION . XLV . The Churches still retained in England . THe Maiesty of the Romish Petty-gods ( I truely told you ) was long agone with Mythra and Serapis , exposed to the laughter of the vulgar : you straine the comparison too farre ; yet we follow you : Their Priests were expelled : for ( as your Doctor yeeldeth ) other Actors came vpon the same Stage : others in religion , else it had beene no change : Their Ministery and Monuments exposed to vtter scorne : Their Masses , their oblations , their adorations , their inuocations , their anoylings , their exorcizings , their shrift their absolutions , their Images , roode loftes , and whatsoeuer else of this kind : But the Temples of those olde Heathens were demolished and raced : Here is the quarrell : ours stand still in their proude Maiesty : Can you see no difference betwixt our Churches and their Temples ? The very name it selfe ( if at least you haue vnderstood it ) Kirke or Church ( which is nothing but an abbreuiation of ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) the Lords house ) might haue taught you , that ours were dedicated to God , and theirs to the Diuel , in their false gods : Augustine answeres you , as directly , as if he were in my roome : The Gentiles ( saith he ) to their Gods erected Temples , we not Temples vnto our Martyrs , as vnto Gods , but memorials as vnto dead men , whose spirits with God are still liuing : These then if they were abused by Popish Idolatrie , is there no way , but downe with them , downe with them to the ground ? Well fare the Donatists yet , your olde friends ; they but washed the walles that were polluted by the Orthodoxe . By the same token that Optatus askes them , why they did not wash the bookes , which ours touched , and the heauens which they look't vpon : What , are the very stones sinfull ? what can be done with them ? The very earth where they should lie on heapes would be vncleane : But not their pollution angers you more , then their proud Maiesty : What house can be too good for the maker of all Things ? As God is not affected with state , so is he not delighted in basenesse . If the pompe of the Temple were ceremoniall , yet it leaues this morality behinde it , that Gods house should be decent , and what if goodly ? If we did put holines in the stones , as you doe vncleanenesse , it might be sinne to be costly : Let mee tell you , there may bee as much pride in a clay wall as in a carued : Proude Maiestie is better then proud basenesse : The stone or clay will offend in neither , we may in both : If you loue Cottages , the auncient Christians with vs , loued to haue Gods house stately , as appeares by the example of that worthie Bishoppe of Alexandria , and that gratious Constantine , in whose daies these sacred piles began to lift vp their heads vnto this enuyed height : Take you your owne choice , giue vs ours : let vs neither repine , nor scorne at each other . SECTION . XLVI . The Founders and Furnitures of our Churches . ALl this while I feared you had beene in Popish Idolatrie , now I finde you in Heathenish : These our Churches are still possessed by their Flamins , and Arch-Flamins : I had thought none of our Temples had beene so auncient : Certainely I finde but one poore tuinous building , reported to haue worne out this long tyranny of time : For the most , you might haue read their age , and their Founders in open Records : But these were deriued from those : surely , the Churches as much as the men : It is true , the Flamins , and what euer other heathen Priests , were put down , Christian Bishoppes were set vp : Are these therfore deriued from those ? Christianity came in the roome of Iudaisme , was it therefore deriued from it ? Before you tolde vs , that our Prelacy came from that Antichrist of Rome , now from the Flamins of the Heathen : Both no lesse , then either : If you cannot bee true , yet learne to be constant . But what meane you to charge our Churches with carued and painted Images ? It is wel you write to those that know them ; Why did you not say wee bow our knees to them , and offer incense ? perhaps you haue espied , some old dustie statue in an obscure corner , couer'd ouer with Cob-webs , with halfe a face , and that miserably blemished , or perhappes halfe a Crucifixe inuerted in a Church-window , and these you surely noted for English Idols : no lesse dangerous glasse you might haue seene at Geneua , a Church that hates Idolatrie , as much as you doe vs : What more ? Massing copes and Surplices : some copes ( if you will ) more Surplices , no Massing : Search your Bookes againe ; you shall finde Albes in the Masse , no Surplices : As for Organ-musicke , you should not haue fetch 't it from Rome , but from Ierusalem : In the Reformed Church at Middleburgh , you might haue found this skirt of the Harlot : which yet you grant at least crept out of Babylon ; Iudge now ( Christian reader ) of the weight of these grand exceptions : and see whether ten thousand such were able to make vs no Church , and argue vs not only in Babilon , but to be Babilon it selfe : Thus Babilonish we are to you , and thus Sion-like to God : euerie true Church is Gods Sion : euerie Church that holdes the foundation is true , according to that golden rule , Ephes. 2. 21. Euery building that is coupled together in this corner stone , groweth vnto an holy Temple in the Lord : No aduersarie either man or Diuell can confound vs , either in our euidences , or their owne Challenges : wee may be faulty , but we are true : And if the darknes you finde in vs be light , how great is our light ? SECTION . XLVII . On what ground separation or Ceremonies was obiected . HE that leaues the whole Church in a grosse and wilfull error , is an hereticke ; he that leaues a particular Church for appendances is a schismaticke : such are you , both in the action , and cause : The act is yeelded , the cause hath beene in part scanned , shall be more : This I vainely pretended , to be our consorting in ceremonies with the papists : Behold here the groūd of your loude challenge of my ignorance : Ignorance of your iudgement and practise : Here is my abuse of you , of my Reader : and , how durst I ? Good words ( M. R. ) What I haue erred , I will confesse : I haue wronged you indeed : but in my charity : I knew the cause of Brownisme , but I knew not you : For ( to say ingenuously ) I had heard and hoped , that your case had beene lesse desperate ; My intelligence was , that in dislike of these ceremonies obtruded , and an hopelesnes of future libertie , you and your fellowes had made a secession , rather then a separation from our Church ; to a place , where you might haue scope to professe , and opportunity to inioy your owne conceites : whence it was , that I tearmed you Ringleaders of the late separation , not followers of the first , and made your plea against our Church , imperfection , not falshood : I hoped you , as not ours , so not theirs : not ours in place , so not quite theirs in pieuish opinion : I knew it to be no new thing for men inclining to these fancies , to beginne new Churches at Amsterdam , seuerall from the rest : witnesse the letters of some ( sometimes yours ) cited by your owne pastor : I knew the former separation , and hated it ; I hoped better of the latter separation and pittyed it : My knowledge both of * Master Smith whome you followed , and your selfe , would not let mee thinke of you , as you deserued : How durst I charge you with that , which perhaps you might disauow ? It was my charity therefore , that made my accusations easie : it is your vncharitablenes that accuses them of ignorance . I knew why a Brownist is a true schismaticke ; I knew not you were so true a Brownist . But why then did I write ? Taking your seperation at best : I knew how iustly I might take occasion by it to disswade from seperation : to others good , though not to yours : Now I know you better , or worse rather , I thinke you heare more : Forgiue me my charity , and make the worst of my ignorance . I knew that this separation ( which now I know yours ) stands vpon foure grounds : as some beast vpon foure feete . First , God worshipped after a false manner , Secondly , Prophane multitude receiued , Thirdly , Antichristian Ministery imposed , Fourthly , subiection to Antichristian Gouernement : The ceremonies are but as some one paw in euery foote : yet if wee extend the word to the largest vse , diuiding all Religion into ceremonie , and substance : I may yet , and do auerre , that your separation is meerely grounded vppon Ceremonies . SECTION . XLVIII . Estimation of Ceremonies , and subiection to the Prelates . AND touching ceremonies ; you refused them formerly , but not long : and when you did refuse them , you knew not wherefore ; for immediately before your suspension , you acknowledged them to be things indifferent , and for matter of scandall by them you had not informed your selfe ( by your own confession ) of a whole quarter of a yeare after : Why refused you then , but as the Poet made his playes , to please the people , or as Simon Magus was baptized for company ? But refusing them , you submitted to the Prelates spirituall Iurisdiction : there was your crime ; this was your Camell , the other your Gnats : Did euer any Prelate challenge spirituall rule ouer your conscience ? This they all appropriate to the great Bishoppe of our soules : and if other ; graunt them as your malice faineth : what sinne is it to be the subiect of a Tyrant ? now vpon more grace , refusing the Prelacy , you haue branded the ceremonies : So you did before your separation : Tell vs how long was it after your suspension , and before your departure , that you could haue beene content ( vpon condition ) to haue worne this linnen badge of your man of sinne ? Was not this your resolution , when you went from Norwich to Lincoln-shire , after your suspension ? Denie it not ; my witnesses are too strong . But let vs take you as you are : these ceremonies , though too vile for you , yet are good enough for our Ministers of England : As if you said , Lord , I thanke thee , I am not as this Publican : Why , for our Ministers ? Because , those are the Liueries , and these the sworne seruants of the Antichristian Bishoppes : We haue indeede sworne obedience to our Ordinarie , in honest and lawfull commaundements , but seruice to Christ : But dooth all obedience imply seruitude ? This obedience is , as to spirituall Fathers , not to Masters : yet so are wee the seruants of Christ , that we are ready to giue our seruice to the least of his Saints : Thus vile will wee be for God : How much more to those whom God hath made ( as Hierom saies ) Principes Ecclesiae : whiles they command for God : What doe we herein , but that which Epiphanius vrged of olde against Aerius ; What but the same which Ignatius ( that holy and old Martyr ) requires ( not once ) of all Presbyters , and offers the ingagement of his owne soule for vs in this acte . As for our ceremonies , aggrauate them how you can for your aduantage , they are but ceremonies to vs : and such , as wherein we put no holinesse , but order , decency , conuenience : But they are preferred ( you say ) in our Church , before the preaching of the Gospell : A most wrongfull vntruth ; VVee holde preaching an essentiall part of Gods seruice , ceremonies none at all : The Gospell preached we holde the life and soule of the Church , Ceremonies eyther the Garment , or the lace of the Garment : The Gospell preached we hold the Foundation and VVals , Ceremonies hardly so much as Reede , or Tile : But how then ( say you ) haue they ouerturned our best builders ? This is a word of rare fauor : I had thought you had held vs all ruiners , not builders : Or if builders ; of Babel , not of Hierusalem : in which worke , the best builders are the worst . Those whose hand hath beene in this act would tel you , that not so much the Ceremonies are stood vpon , as obedience : If God please to trie Adam but with an Apple , it is enough : VVhat doe we quarrel at the value of the fruit , when we haue a prohibition ? Shimei is slaine : what merely for going out of the Citie ? the act was little , the bond was great : what is commaunded matters not so much , as by whom ; insult not , wee may thanke your outrage for this losse . For your retortion of my Zoar and Sodome : I can giue you leaue to be wittie , you vse it so seldome : but when you haue played with the allusion what you list , I must tell you that hee which will needes vrge a Comparison to goe on foure feete , is not worthy to goe vpon two : Zoar was neere to Sodome , not part of it : Zoar was reserued when Sodome was destroyed : Zoars neerenesse to the place where Sodome stood , needed not haue giuen Lot cause of remoueall . Zoar might safely haue beene the harbour of Lot : his feare was for want of faith : God promised him and the place security : the far-fetcht application therfore of the wickednesse of Zoar to our Ceremonies might wel haue been forborne and kept to your selfe : much lesse needed you ( like some Anti - Lot ) to call for fire and Brimstone from heauen vpon your Zoar. SECTION . XLIX . The state of the Temple , and of our Church in resemblance . HOw you would haue behaued your selfe in the Temple to the mony-changers : you will aunswer when we proue our Church to be Gods Temple , built of that matter , and in that form which God hath prescribed : and here you send vs to 1. K. 5. 17. & 2. Chr. 2. 8. Ignorantly ; as if Salomons Temple had stood till Christs time : when neither the first , nor second ( though called Beth Gnolam ) out lasted more then foure hundred yeares : Or as if the Market had beene vnder the very roofe of that Temple : whether Herods were built of the same matter with Salomons , and in full corespondence to it , I dispute not : it was certainely dedicated to Gods seruice , and that ( which you would hardly digest ) in a solemne anniuersary holy-day ; though not erected vpon the word of any Prophet . But to let passe Allegories : we must proue our selues the true Church of God : Thus we doe it : VVe are true Christians , for we were baptized into the name of Christ ; we truely professe our continuance in the same faith , into which we were baptized : we ioyne together in the publique seruices of God : we maintain euery point of the most ancient Creeds : wee ouerthrowe not the foundation by any consequence , therefore what euer is wanting to vs , what euer is superfluous , in spight of all the gates of Hell , we are the true Church of God. Let me aske you : Were not the people of the Iewes in the Prophets and in Christs time a confused heape of dead and defiled , and ( for I will vse your Tautologies ) polluted stones , and of all rubbish , of Bryers and brambles of the VVildernesse , for the most part fitter for burning then building ? Can we be worse then they ? If wickednesse can defile a Church , they shal iustifie vs : did either those Prophets or our Sauiour , rather shewe their obedience to God in departing from it , then their valour in purging it : you haue well imitated these heauenly patternes , But what ? Can your charity finde nothing but rubbish ? Not one square stone , not one liuing ? You will bee iudging till God iudge you : if you take not heede of these courses , you will so runn with the Hee goates , that you wil stand with the Goates on the left hand : That God , whose place you haue vsurped , giue you more wisedome and loue . SECTION . L. Whether Ministers should endure themselues silenced . THe valour of our most zealous Reformers hath truely shewed it selfe in yeeldance : As in Duels , so here , he is the most valiant that can so master himselfe as not to fight : you according to the common opinion of Swaggerers , blame the peaceable of cowardise , and accuse them of suffering . Behold a newe crime : That they suffer themselues to be driuen out : VVhat should they haue done ? Should they haue taken armes , and crie the sword of God , and Gedion ? You that wil not allow a Prince to compell subiects , VVill you allow subiects to compell Princes ? God forbidde : This were high Treason against Gods annointed : what then ? Should they approue the Ceremonies by subscription , by practise ? This you exclaime vppon as high Treason against the highest : VVhat yet more ? Should they haue preached with their mouthes stop't ? This is it , which you haue learned of your founder , and through not many handes receiued , and required with no lesse violence : Clamour and tumult is that you desire ; still let our sinne be peaceable obedience , yours fury and opposition Your headstrong conceit is , that it is a sinne to be silenced : Men must preach euen when they may not : all times , before you , would haue wondred at this Paradoxe : For how euer the Apostles , which had not their calling from men , would not be silenced by men , yet wee finde that all their successours held that those hands which were layd vpon their heads , might be laid vpon their mouthes : looke into all Histories : Those Constitutions ( which though not Apostolike ( yet were auncient ) in the seuenth Canon punish a Bishop or Presbiter , that vpon pretence of Religion separates from his wife , with deposition : and if any Presbiter shall shift his charge without licence ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) and lastly inflicts the same penalty vpon fornication , adulterie , periury . The great Nicene Councels take the same order with some misliked Bishops , and Presbiters in diuers Canons : Gaudentius in the Councell of Sardi , takes it for graunted , that a Bishop may by Bishops be deposed : so the second Councell of Carthage , Can. 13. so the fourth Councell of Carthage more then once imposes degradation : so Leo the first threats to put some offending persons from the office of their Ministrie : so ( that I may not be endlesse ) blessed Cyprian aduises Rogatianus a good olde Bishop , which was abused by a malapert Deacon , by the authority of his Chaire to right himselfe , and either to depose , or suspend the offender . Leontius in Socrates , is depriued of his Priesthood : yea , what Councell or Father giues not both rules and instances , of this practise ? See how farre the auncient Church was from these tumultuous fancies : No , no , ( M. R. ) we well finde , it is doing that vndoes the Church , not suffering : If your fellowes could haue suffered more , and done lesse , the Church had bin happy : As for our Church officers , you may raile vpon them with a lawlesse safety : there is a great ditch betwixt you and them : else you might pay deare for this sinne of slandering them with their cheape peny-worths : How idly doe you insult ouer those , whom your Mony-changers haue driuen out of their Pulpits : When you confesse ( after all your valour ) that they haue driuen you both out of Church and Country : who can pitty a miserable insulter ? SECTION . LI. Power of reforming abuses giuen to the Church : and the issue of the neglect of it . YOu that can graunt there will be corruptions in all other Churches , will endure none in ours : If England should haue either vnleauened Wafers , or drunken Loue-feasts ( though no other blemishes ) she could not but be Babilon : Wee enuie not your fauours : These , or whatsoeuer like enormities , Christ hath giuen power vnto his Church to reforme : but what if the Church neglect to vse it ? What if those euils , which are brought in , by humane frailty , will not by diuine authority be purged out ? Now the errour ( by your doctrine ) is growne fundamentall ; so Christ is lost , and the foundation raced : if wee shall then assume ( against our friends , to conuince our enemies ) The Church of Geneua hath been seriously dealt with , in this corruption , and disswaded by vehement importunity , yet still persisteth : How can you free them , and charge vs ? see how we loue to be miserable , with cōpany . This power to purge out all corruptions , Christ hath not giuen vs : if he hath giuē it you ; you must first begin to purge out your selues : you haue done it ; but still there remaine some : would God wee had as much execution as power : Our Church should be as cleane as yours is schismaticall : if you should measure faculties by their exercise : Naturall rest should be the greatest enemie to vertue : and the solitarie Christian should be miserable : This power of ours is not dead , but sleepeth : When it awaketh vnto more frequent vse , ( which we earnestly pray for ) looke you for the first handsell of it : None can be more worthy : as it is ; we offend not more in defect then you in excesse : Of whom that your Lazarello of Amsterdam G. I. could say , that you haue excommunications as ready as a Prelate hath a prison : Christ is in many that feele him not ; but wee want not the power onely , but the presence of Christ : How so ? He was with vs while you were here : Did he depart with you ? will the separatists engrosse our Sauiour to themselues , and ( as Cyprian said of Pupianus ) goe to heauen alone ? yea , confine the God of heauen to Amsterdam ? What insolence in this ? we haue him in his Word : wee haue him in his Sacraments : we haue him in our hearts : we haue him in our profession , yet this enemie dare say we want him : Wherein ? I suppose in our censures : VVe haue Peters keyes ( as his true successours both in office , and doctrine ) : our fault is ; that we vse them not , as you would : VVhat Church doth so ? your first Martyr doth as zealously inueigh against the practise of Geneua , and all other reformed Congregations in this point , as against vs : both for the wooden dagger ( as he termes it ) of suspension , and for their Consistoriall excommunications : VVoe were to all the world , if Christ should limit his presence onely to your fashions : Heere you found him , and heere you left him : VVould to God wee did no more grieue him with our sinnes , then you please him in your presumptuous censures : in the rest you raile against our Prelates and vs : Can any man think that Christ hath left peaceable spirits , to goe dwell with railers ? Indeed , yours is free-hold : so you wold haue it : free from subiection , free from obedience : This is loosenesse , more then liberty : You haue broken the bonds , and cast the cordes from you : but you miscall our Tenure : VVe hate villenage no lesse then you hate peace ; and hold ( in capite ) of him , that is the head of his body , the Church : vnder whose easie yoake wee doe willingly stoope in a sweet Christian freedome ; abhorring , and reprouing ( and therefore notwithstanding our personall communion auoiding ) all abhominations : In these two respects therefore of our confusion , and bondage , wee haue well seene in this discourse , how iustly your Sion accounts vs Babylon : since it is apparent for the one , that here is neither confusion , nor Babylonish , nor without separation : For the other , no bondage , no seruility : Our Prelats being our Fathers , not our Masters : and if Lords for their external dignity , yet not Lords of our Faith : and if both these your respects were so , yet so long as we doe inviolably hold the foundation , both directly , and by necessary sequell : any railer may terme vs , but no Seperatist shall proue vs Babylon : you may flye whether you list : would God yet further , vnlesse you had more loue . SECTION . LII . The view of the sinnes and disorders of others , whereupon obiected : and how farre it should affect vs. I Neede no better Analyser then your selfe , saue that you doe not onely resolue my parts , but adde more : whereas euery motion hath a double terme : from whence , and whither : both these could not but fall into our discourse ; hauing therefore formerly expostulated with you for your ( since you will so terme it ) impiety , in forsaking a ceremonious Babylon of your owne making in England : I thought it not vnfit to compare your choice with your refusall : England with Amsterdam , which it pleaseth you to intitle a substantiall Babylon : impiety and madnes are titles of your owne choice , let your guiltinesse be your owne accuser : The truth is , my charity and your vncharitablenes haue caused vs to mistake each other : my charity thus : Hearing both at Middleburgh , and here , that certaine companies from the parts of Nottingham and Lincolne ( whose Harbinger had beene newly in Zeland before me ) meant to retyre themselues to Amsterdam , for their full libertie , not for the full approbation of your Church : not fauouring your maine opinions , but emulating your freedome in too much hate of our ceremonies , and too much accordance to some grounds of your hatred : I hoped you had beene one of their guides ; both because Lincoln-shire was your Country , and Master Smith your Oracle , and Generall : Not daring therefore to charge you with perfect Brownisme , what could I thinke might bee a greater motiue to this your supposed change , then the view of our ( so oft proclaimed ) wickednesse , and the hope of lesse cause of offence in those forraine parts : this I vrged , fearing to goe deeper then I might bee sure to warrant : Now comes my charitable answerer , and imputes this easines of my challenge , to my ignorance ; and therefore will needes perswade his Christian reader , that I knew nothing of the first separation , because I obiected so little to the second . It were strange if I should thinke , you gather Churches there by Town-rowes ( as we in England ) who know that some one prison might hold all your refined flocke : you gathered here by Hedge-rowes ; but there it is easier to tell how you diuide , then how you gather : let your Church be an intire body , inioying her owne spirituall communion , yet if it be not a corrasiue to your heart to conuerse in the same streetes , and to be ranged in the same Towne-rowes with Iewes , Arians , Anabaptists , &c. you are no whit of kinne to him , that vexed his righteous soule with the vncleanenesses of foule Sodom . That good man had nothing but ciuill society with those impure neighbours : he differed from them in Religion , in practise , yet could hee not so carelesly turne off this torment : His house was Gods Church ; wherein they had the spirituall communion of the Saints : yet whiles the Citie was so vncleane , his heart was vnquiet : We may ( you graunt ) haue ciuill society with ill men , spirituall communion onely with Saints : Those must be accounted the world , these onely the Church : your owne allegations shall condemne you . They are not of the world ( saith Christ ) as I am not of the world : Both Christ , and they were partes of the Iewish Church : The Iewish Church was not so sanctified , but the most were extreamely ▪ vncleane : therefore wee may bee partes of a visible vnsanctified Church ; and yet be separate from the world . Saint Paul writes to his Corinthians , sanctified in Christ , Saints by calling : True , but not long after , he can say , ye are yet carnall . In his second Epistle : Come out ( saith he ) from among them : But , from whom ? From Infidels by profession , not corrupted Christians . SECTION . LIII . The nearenesse of the State and Church , and the great errours found by the Separatists in the French and Dutch Churches . THE Church and State , if they be two , yet they are twins , and that so , as eithers euill proues mutuall : The sinnes of the Citie not reformed , blemish the Church ; where the Church hath power and in a sort comprehends the State , she cannot wash her hands of tollerated disorders in the Cōmon-wealth : hence is my comparison of the Church ( if you could haue seene it , not the Kingdome ) of England , with that of Amsterdam : I doubt not , but you could be content to sing the old song of vs , Bona terra , mala gens : Our land you could like well , if you might be Lordes alone , Thankes be to God it likes not you , and iustly thinkes the meanest corner too good for so mutinous a generation : when it is weary of peace it will recall you : you that neither in prison , nor on the Seas , nor in the Coasts of Virginea , nor in your way , nor in Netherland could liue in peace , What shall we hope of your ease at home ? Where ye are , all you thankful Tenants cannot in a powerful Christian state moue God to distinguish betwixt the knowen sinnes of the Citie , and the Church : How oft hath our gratious Soueraigne , and how importunately beene solicited for a tolleration of Religions ? It is pittie that the Papists hyred not your aduocation : who in this pointe are those true Cassanders , which reuerend Caluin long since confuted : Their wishes herein are yours : To our shame and their excuse : his Christian heart held that tolleration vnchristian and intollerable , which you either neglect or magnifie : Good Constantine wink 't at it in his beginning , but as Dauid at the house of Zeruiah : Succeeding times found these Canaanites to be prickes and thornes , and therefore both by mulctes and banishments sought eyther their yeeldance or voydance . If your Magistrates hauing once given their names to the Church , indevour not to purge this Augean stable ; how can you preferre their Communion to ours ? But howsoeuer now , least we should thinke your Land-lords haue too iust cause to pack you away for wranglers , you turne ouer all the blame from the Church to the City ; yet your Pastor and Church haue so found the Citie in the Church , and branded it with so blacke markes , as that all your smooth extenuations cannot make it a lesse Babylon then the Church of England : Beholde now by your owne Confessions either Amsterdam shall be , or England shall not be Babylon : These eleuen crimes you haue found and proclaimed in those Dutch and French Churches : First , That the assembles are so contriued that the whole Church comes not together in one : So that the Ministers cannot together with the flock sanctifie the Lords day ; The presence of the members of the Church cannot be knowne , and finally no publique action , whether excommunication , or any other can rightly be performed . Could you say worse of vs ? Where neither Sabboth can be rightly sanctified ; nor presence or absence knowne , nor any holy action rightly performed , what can there be but mere confusion ? Secondly , That they baptise the seede of them who are no members of any visible Church ; of whom moreouer they haue not care as of members , neither admit their parents to the Lordes Supper : Mere Babylonisme , and sinne in constitution , yea the same that makes vs no Church : for what separation can there be in such admittance ? what other but a sinfull commixture ? How is the Church of Amsterdam now gathered from the world ? Thirdly , That in the publique worshippe of God they haue deuised , and vsed another forme of prayer , besides that which Christ our Lord hath prescribed , Mat. 6. reading out of a booke certain prayers inuented and imposed by man. Beholde here our fellow Idolaters : and ( as followes ) a daily Sacrifice of a set Seruice-booke , which in stead of the sweete incense of spirituall prayers is offered to God , very Swines-flesh , a new Por●uise , and an equal participation with vs of the curse of addition to the word . Fourthly , That rule and commandement of Christ , Matth. 18. 15. they neither obserue , nor suffer rightly to be obserued among them . How oft haue you said that there can bee no sound Church without this course , because no separation ? Beholde the maine blemish of England in the face of Amsterdam ! Fiftly , That they worship God in the Idoll Temples of Antichrist : so the Wine is mar'd with the vessell , their seruice abhomination with ours : neyther doe these Antichristian stones want all glorious ornaments of the Romish harlot , yet more . Sixtly , That their Ministers haue their set maintenance after another manner then Christ hath ordained , 1. Chr. 14. and that also such , as by which any Ministery at all , whether Popish or other might bee maintained : Either tithes , or as ill : Beholde one of the maine Arguments wherby our Ministery is condemned as false and Antichristian , falling heauie vppon our neighbours . Seuenthly , That their Elders change yearely , and do not continue in their office , according to the doctrine of the Apostles and practise of the Primitiue Church : What can our Church haue worse then false Gouernours ? Both annuall and perpetual they cannot be : VVhat is ( if not this ) a wrong in Constitution ? Eightly , that they celebrate mariage in the Church , as if it were a part of the Ecclesiasticall administration : a foule shame and sinne : and what better then our third Sacrament ? Ninthly , That they vse a new censure of suspension which Christ hath not appointed : no lesse then English presumption . Tenthly , That they obserue daies and times , consecrating certaine daies in the yeare to the Natiuity , Resurrection , Ascension of Christ : Beholde their Calender as truely possessed : Two Commaundements solemnely broken at once ; and we not Idolaters alone . Eleuenth , which is last and worst , that they receiue vnrepentant excommunicates to bee members of their Church , which by this meanes becomes one one body with such as be deliuered vnto Sathan ; therefore none of Christs bodie : England can be but a miscelline rabble of prophane men ; The Dutch and French Churches are belike no better , who can be worse then an vnrepentant excommunicate ? Goe now and say , It is the Apostasie of Antichrist to haue communion with the world in the holy things of God , which are the peculiars of the Church , and cannot without great Sacriledge be so prostituted and prophaned ; Goe say , that the plaguy-spirituall-leprosie of sinne rising vp in the foreheads of many in that Church , vnshut vp , vncouered ( yea wilfully let loose ) infects all both persons and things amongst them : Goe now and flie out of this Babylon also , as the Hee-goates before the flocke , or returne to ours : But howeuer these errours bee grosse , perhappes they are tractable ; Not the sinne vndoes the Church , but obstinacy ; here is no euasion : For behold , you do no more accuse those Churches of corruption , then of wilfulnesse : for diuers times haue you dealt with them about these fearefull enormities : yea you haue often de●ired , that knowledge thereof might be by themselues giuen to the whole body of their Church , or that ( at least ) they would take order that it might be done by you : They haue refused both ; What remaines , but they be our fellow-Heathens and Publicanes ? And not they alone , but all reformed Churches besides in Christendome , which doe ioyntly partake in all these ( except one or two personall ) abhominations : will you neuer leaue til you haue wrangled your selues out of the world ? But now I feare I haue drawne you to say , that the hellish impieties both in the Citie , and Church of Amsterdam are but frogges , lyce , flies , moraine and other Egiptian plagues , not preiudicing your Goshen : Say so if you dare ; I feare they would soone make the Ocean your redde Sea , and Virginia your Wildernesse . The Church is Noahs Arke , which gaue safetie to her Guests , whereof ye are part ; but remember that it had vncleane beasts also , and some sauage : If the waues drowne you not , yet ( me thinkes ) you should complaine of noysome society : Sathans throne could not preiudice the Church of Pergamus , but did not the Balaamites ( the Nicolaitanes ? ) Yet their heauenly communion stood , and the Angell is sent away with but threates . SECTION . LIIII . Conuersation with the world . AS it were madnesse to denie that the Church should conuerse with the world in the affaires thereof : So to denie her Communion in Gods holy things , with any of those of the world , which professe Christianity ( as yet vncensured ) is a point of Anabaptisticall Apostasie : such of the world are still of the Church . As my censure cannot eiect them , so their sinne ( after my priuate endeuor of redresse ) cannot defile me : I speake of priuate Communicants : If an vnbidden Guest come with a ragged garment , and vnwashen hands , shall I forbeare Gods heauenly dainties ? The Master of the feast can say , Friend , how cam'st thou in hither : not , Friendes why came you hither with such a Guest ? God biddes me come : he hath imposed this necessity , neuer allowed this excuse : My teeth shall not bee set on edge with the sower grapes of others : If the Church cast not out the knowne vnworthy , the sinne is hers : If a man will come vnworthy , the sinne is his : But if I come not because he comes , the sinne is mine : I shall not answer for that others sinne : I shall answere for mine owne neglect : An other mans fault cannot dispence with my duetie . SECTION . LV. The impure mixtures of the Church of England . AS there is no element which is not through many mixtures departed from the first simplicitie : So no Church euer breathed in so pure an Ayre , as that it might not iustly complaine of some thicke and vnwholsome euaporations of errour and sinne . If you challenge an immunity , you are herein the true broode of the auncient Puritanes : But if too many sinnes in practise haue thickened the Ayre of our Church , yet not one heresie : that smoake of the bottomlesse pit hath neuer corrupted it : and therefore iustly may I auerre , that here you might drawe in the cleare Ayre of the Gospell : No wherevpon earth more freely : And if this be but the opinion of custome , you whom absence hath helped with a more nice and dainty sent , speake your worst : Shew vs our heresies , and shame vs : you haue done it , and behold foure maine infections of our English ayre : The first , the smoake of our Canons : Wittily : I feare the great Ordinances of the Church , haue troubled you more with the blow , then the smoake : For you tell vs of their Plantation against the Kingdome of Christ : What Kingdome ? The Visible Church : Which is that ? Not the Reformedst peece of ours , whole best are but Goats and Swine : Not the close Nicodemians of your owne Sect amongst vs , which would be loath to be visible : Not forrainers , to them they extend not : None therefore in all the world , but the English Parlour-full at Amsterdam : Can there be any truer Donatisme ? Crie you still out of their poysoning the Ayre : We hold it the best clensed by the batteries of your idle fancies , by ridding you from our Ayre , and by making this your Church inuisible to vs ; smart you thus , till we complaine . The second is the plague or Leprosie of sinne vnshut vp and vncouered : Wee knowe that sinne is as ill , as the Diuill can make it , a most loathsome thing in the eies of God , and his Angels , and Saints : and we grant to our griefe that among so many millions of men , there may be found some thousands of Lepers : Good lawes and censures meete with some , others escape : It is not so much our fault , as our griefe : But that this Leprosie infects all persons , and things , is shamefully ouer-reach't : Plague and Leprosie haue their limits , beyond which , is no contagion ; If a man come not neare them , if hee take the winde in an open ayre , they infect not : such is sinne : It can infect none but the guiltie : Those which acte or assent to , or bear with it , or detest it not , are in this pollution : But those which can mourne for it , and cannot redresse it , are free from infection : How many foule Lepers spiritually did our Sauiour see in the publique Ayre of the Iewish Church ? wherewith yet he ioyned , and his , not fearing infection so much , as gracing the remnants of their ruinous Church : Were those seuen thousand Israelites whose knees bowed not to Baal , infected with the Idolatrie of their neighbours ? yet continued they still partes of the same Church . But this yet exceedes : Not onely all persons , but all thinges ? What ? Our Gospell ? Our heauen , earth , Sea ? Our Bookes ; Coyne , Commodities ? Beholde , you see the same heauen with vs , you haue no Bibles but ours : our Ayre in his circular motion comes to bee yours : the water that washeth our Iland , perhappes washeth your handes : Our vncleane Siluer ( I feare ) maintaines you : Our Commodities ( in parte ) inrich your Land-lords : and yet all things amongst vs infected ? you are content to take some euil from your neighbors . The third is our blasting Hierarchie , which suffers no good thing , ( that is no Brownist , no singular fancy ) ( for what good things haue we but yours ? ) to grow , or prosper amongst vs , but withers all both budde and branch , would to God the root also : The last , is the daily sacrifice of a seruice-booke : an incense , how euer vnsauorie to you , yet such as all Churches in Christendome hold sweete , and offer vp as fitte for the nostrils of the Almightie ; we are not alone thus tainted ; al Christian Churches that are , or haue bin , present the same Censers vnto God : But ours smels strong of the Popes Portuise : See whether this be any better then triuiall cauilling : If either an ill man , or a Diuill shall speake that which is good ; may not a good man vse it ? If a good Angell , or man shall speake that which is euill , is it euer the better for the Deliuerer ? If Sathan himselfe shall say of Christ ; Thou art the sonne of the liuing God , shall I feare to repeate it ? Not the Authour but the matter , in these things is worthie of regard : As Ierome speakes of the poysoned workes of Origen , and other dangerous Treatisours , Good things may be receiued from ill handes ; If the matter of any prayer be Popish , fault it for what it containes , not for whence it came : what say you against vs in this , more then Master Smith ( your stout Anabaptist ) saith of our baptizing of Infants : Both of them equally condemned for Antichristian : Still therefore wee boast of the free , and cleare ayre of the Gospell , if it be annoyed with some practicall euils , we may be foule , the Gospel is it selfe , and our profession holy , neither can we complaine of all euils , while we want you . SECTION . LVI . The iudgement of our owne , and our neighbours of our Church . THat which followeth is but wordes , a short answere is too much : That all Christendome magnifies the worthinesse of our Church , in so cleare euidences of their own voyces you cannot denie ; and now when you see such testimonies abroad ( lest you should say nothing ) you fetch cauils from home : Those men which ( you say ) complaine so much of their miserable condition vnder the Prelates impositions , haue notwithstanding with the same pens and tongues not onely iustified our Church but extold it : you haue found no sharper aduersaries in this verie accusation , for which you malitiously cyte them : How freely , how sully haue they euinced the truth ? yea the happinesse of the Church of England against your false challenges : and yet your forehead dare challenge them for Authors : So hath their moderation opposed some appendances , that they haue both acknowledged and defended the substance with equall vehemence to your opposition : neither doe they suffer ( as you traduce them ) for seeking another Church-gouernement : looke into the Millenaries petition ( the common voyce of that part ) I am deceiued , if ought of their complaints sound that way , much lesse of their sufferings : deformitie in practise is obiected to them , not indeuour of innouation ; That quarrell hath beene long silent , your motion cannot reuiue it : would God you could as much follow those men in moderate and charitable carriage , as you haue out-run them in complaint . It pleaseth you to deuise vs , like pictures vpon course Canuasse , which shew fairest at farthest ; attributing forraine approbation ( which you cannot denie ) to distance , more then to desert . How is it then , that ( besides strange witnesses ) we which looke vpon this face without preiudice , commend it ( God knowes ) without flatterie : we can at once acknowledge her infirmities , and blesse God for her graces : Our neighbours , ( yea our selues ) of Scotland , know our Church so well , that they doe with one consent praise her for one of Gods best daughters ; neither doe the most rigorous amongst them , more dislike our Episcopall Gouernement , then embrace our Church : what fraud is this , to flie from the Church in common , to one circumstance ? wee can honour that noble Church in Scotland , may we not dislike their alienations of Church-liuings ? If one thing offend , doe all displease ? Yet euen this Gouernment , which you would haue them resist to bonds and banishment ( who knowes not ? ) begins to find both fauour and place : what choice other Churches would make , as you doubt not , so you care not : If you regarded their sentence : How durst your reuile her as a false harlot , whom they honour as a deere sister ? If you were more theirs then we , you might vpbraide vs : Now you tell vs what perhaps they would doe , we tell you what they doe , and will doe : Euen with one voyce , blesse God for England , as the most famous and flourishing Church in Christendome : your handfull onely makes faces , and enuies this true glorie ; Who yet ( you say ) despise not our graces , no more then we those of Rome : See how you despise vs while you say , you are free from despight : How malicious is this Comparison , as if we were to you , as Rome to vs : and yet you despise vs more : Wee graunt Rome a true Baptisme , true Visibilitie of a Church , though monstrously corrupted : you giue not vs so much : Thankes be to God , wee care lesse for your censure , then you doe for our Church : We haue by Gods mercy the true and right vse of the word , and Sacraments , and all other essentiall giftes and graces of God ; if there might bee some further helpes in execution , to make these more effectual , we resist not : But those your other imaginary ordinances , as wee haue not , so wee want not : Neither the Chaldeans , nor any Idolatrous enemies could make Sion Babylon , nor the holy vessels prophane ; so as they should cease to be fitte for Gods vse : but they were brought backe at the returne of the captiuitie to Ierusalem : Such were our worshippe , ministery , Sacraments , and those manifold subiects of your cauils , which whiles you disgrace for their former abuse , you call our good euill , and willingly despise our graces . SECTION . LVII . The issue of Separation . ALL the sequell of my answerer is meerely sententious : it is fitter for vs to learne , then replie : Where the truth gaines ( say you ) God looseth not ▪ I tell you againe , where God looseth , the truth gaineth not , and where the Church looseth , God ( which indowed her ) cannot but loose : Alas what can the truth either get or saue by such vnkinde quarrels ? Surely suspicion on some handes , on others reiection : for ( as Optatus of his Donatists ) Betwixt our Licet , and your Non licet many poore soules wauer and doubt : neither will settle , because wee agree not : Thankes are not lost , where new fauours are called for , but where olde are denied , while your Posie is : Such as the mother such is the daughter ; where are our olde , our any mercies ? They are vnthankfull , which know what God hath done , and confesse it not : They are vnfaithfull to God and his Deputie , which knowing themselues made to obey , presume to ouer-rule , and vpon their priuate authoritie , obtrude to the Church those ordinances to bee obserued , which neuer had being but in their owne idle speculation . Your Sequestration and our confusion , are both of them beneficial , where they should not : and as you pretend our confusion for the cause of your Separation ; So is your Separation the true cause of too much trouble , and confusion in the Church : Your odious tale of commixture hath cloyed and surfeited your reader already , and receiued aunswere to satietie : This one dish so oft brought foorth , argues your pouertie : The visible Church is Gods drag-net , and field , and floore , and Arke , here will be euer at her best , sedge , tares , chaffe , vncleane Creatures : yet is this no pretence for her neglect : The notoriously euill she casts from her brest , and knee , denying them the vse of her prayers , and ( which your leaders mislike ) of her Sacrament ; If diuers through corruption of vnfaithfull officers , escape censure ; yet let not the transgressions of some , redound to the condemnation of the whole Church : In Gods iudgement it shall not , wee care little , if in yours . Wee tell wicked men , they may goe to hell-with the water of Baptisme in their faces , with the Church in their mouthes , we denounce Gods iudgements vnpartially against their sinnes , and them : Thus we flatter , thus wee deceiue , if yet they will needs run to perdition : Perditio tua ex te Israel . Our Clergie is so Romish as our Baptisme : If therefore Romish , because they came thence , wee haue disproued it : If therefore Romish because they haue beene vsed there , we graunt and iustifie it , That auncient confession of their faith which was famous thorough the world we receiue with them : If they hold one God , one Baptisme , one heauen , one Christ shall we renounce it ? Why should wee not cast off our Christendome and humanitie , because the Romanes had both ? How much Rome can either challenge , or hope to gaine in our Clergie and Ministration is well witnessed by the blood of those Martyrs , eminent in the Prelacie , which in the fresh memories of many was shed for God , against that Harlot : and by the excellent labours of others , both Bishops and Doctors : whose learned pens haue pulled downe more of the wals of Rome , then all the corner-creeping Brownists in the world shall euer be able to doe , while Amsterdam standeth . It is you that furnish these aduersaries with aduantages , through your wilfull diuisions : Take Scilurus his arrowes , single out of the sheafe , the least finger breakes them , while the whole bundle feares no stresse : wee know well where the blame is , our deseruings can be no protection to you : you went from vs , not we from you . Plead not our constraint , you should not haue beene compelled to forsake vs , while Christ is with vs : But who compels you not to call vs brethren ? to denie vs Christians ? your zeale is so farre from iustifying the wicked , that it condemnes the righteous . SECTION . LVIII . The Brownists scornefull opinion of our people . How scornefully doe you turne ouer our poore rude multitude , as if they were beasts not men ; or if men , not rude , but sauage : This contempt needed not : These sonnes of the earth may goe before you to heauen : Indeed as it was of old said , that all Egyptians were Physitions : so may it now of you : All Brownists are diuines , no Separatist cannot prophesie : No sooner can they looke at the skirts of this hill , but they are rapt from the ordinary pitch of men : Either this change is perhaps by some strange illumination , or else your learned paucitie got their skill amongst our rude and prophane multitude : we haue still many in our rude multitude , whom wee dare compare with your teachers : neither is there any so lewd and prophane that cannot pretend a scandall from your separation : Euen these soules must be regarded ( though not by you . ) Such were some of you , but ye are washed , &c. The wise hearted amongst vs doe more then suspect , find out our weakenesses , and bewaile them ; yet doe they not more discouer our imperfections then acknowledge our truth : If they bee truely wise , wee cannot suspect them , they cannot forsake vs : Their charitie will couer , more then their wisdomes can discouer . SECTION . LIX . The conclusion from the fearefull answere of Separation . MY last threat , of the easier aunsweres of whoredomes , & adulteries then Separation , you think to skoffe out of countenance . I feare your conscience will not alwayes allow this mirth ; Our Consistories haue spared you ynough : let those which haue tryed , say , whether your corrupt Eldership be more safe iudges : If ours imprison iustly , yours excommunicate vniustly ; To be in Custodie is lesse grieuous , then out of the Church : at least , if your censures were worth any thing , but contempt : As Hierom said of the like : It is well that malice hath not so great power as will : you shall one day ( I feare ) finde the Consistorie of heauen more rigorous , if you wash not this wrong with your teares ; That tribunall shall find your confidence , presumption ; your zeale , furie : you are bold , surely more then wise : To proclame , we haue no need of such criers : doubtlesse your head hath made Proclamations long , now your hand begins : What proclaime yee ? Separation from the Communion , Gouernment , Ministery and worship of the Church of England : what needed it ? Your act might haue saued your voice : what should our eyes and eares be troubled with one bad obiect ? But why separate you from these ? Because they rise vp rebelliously against the Scepter of Christ : The Scepter of Christ is his word : he holdes it out , we touch and kisse it : What one sentence of it , doe we wilfully oppose ? away with these foolish impieties , you thrust a Reed into your Sauiors hand , & say , Haile King of the Iewes , and will needes perswade vs none but this is his rodde of Iron : Lastly , vpon what warrant ? Of his will and Testament : you may wrong vs ; But how dare you fasten your lies vpon your Redeemer and Iudge ? What clause of his hath bid you separate ? We haue the true Copies . As we hope or desire to be saued , we can find no sentence that soundeth toward the fauour of this your act : Must God be accused of your wilfulnesse ? Before that God and his blessed Angels , and Saints , we feare not to protest that we are vndoubtedly perswaded , that whosoeuer wilfully forsakes the Communion , Gouernement , Ministerie , or worshippe of the Church of England are enemies to the Scepter of Christ , and rebels against his Church and annointed : neither doubt we to say , that the Mastershippe of the Hospitall at Norwich , or a lease from that Citie ( sued for , with repulse ) might haue procured that this separation from the Communion , Gouernement , and worshippe of the Church of England , should not haue beene made by Iohn Robinson . FINIS . A Table of all the Sections contained in this Booke . THE entrance into the worke . fol. 1. The answerers Preamble . fol. 3. The parties written to , and their crime . fol. 6. The kindes of separation and which is iust . fol. 8. The antiquitie and examples of separation . fol. 12. What separation is to be made by Churches in their planting , or restauration . fol. 16. What separation the Church of England hath made . fo . 19 Constitution of a Church . fol. 21 Order 2. Part of Constitution , how farre requisite , and whether hindred by Constraint . fol. 23. Constraint requisite . fol. 24 Constitution of the Church of England . fol. 26. The Answerers title . fol. 31. The Apostasie of the Church of England . fol. 33. The Separatists acknowledgements of the graces of the Church of England . fol. 39. The vnnaturalnes of some principall separatists fol. 42. What the Separatists thinke themselues beholden to the Church of England for . fol. 44. The Motherhood of the Church of England , how farre it obligeth vs. fol. 45. The want of pretended Ordinances of God , whether sinfull to vs : and whether they are to bee set vp without Princes . fol. 48. The bonds of Gods word vniustly pleaded by the Separatists . fol. 51. The necessity of their pretended Ordinances . fol. 52. The enormities of the Church in common . fol. 55. The Church of England is the Spouse of Christ. fol. 56. How the Church of England hath separated from Babylon . fol. 57. The Separation made by our holy Martyrs . fol. 62. What separation England hath made . fol. 63. The maine grounds of Separation . fol. 65. The truth and warrant of the Ministery of England . fol. 66. Confused Communion of the prophane . fol. 70. Our Errours intermingled with Truth . fol. 71. Whether our Prelacie be Antichristian . fol. 74. The iudgement and practise of other Reformed Churches . fol. 77. Our Synodes determination of things indifferent . fol. 78. Sinnes sold in our Courts . fol. 81. Our loyaltie to Princes cleared , theirs questioned . fol. 84. Errours of Free will , &c. fained vpon the Church of England . fol. 86. Kneeling at the Sacrament of the Lords Supper . fol. 87. Whether our Ordinarie and Seruice-Booke , be made Idols by vs. fol. 89. Marriage not made a Sacrament by the Church of England . fol. 95. Commutation of Penance in our Church . fol. 98. Oath ex Officio . fol. 99. Holy-daies how obserued in the Church of England . 100. Our approbation of an vnlearned Ministery disproued . fol. 102. Penances inioyned in the Church of England . fol. 103. The practises of the Church of England , concerning the Funerals of the dead . fol. 104. The Churches still retained in England . fol. 108. The Founders and Furnitures of our Churches . fol. 110. On what ground Separation or Ceremonies was obiected . fol. 112. Estimation of Ceremonies , and subiection to the Prelates . fol. 114. The state of the Temple , and of our Church in resemblance . fol. 117. Whether Ministers should endure themselues silenced . fol. 119. Power of reforming abuses giuen to the Church : and the issue of the neglect of it . fol. 121. The view of the sinnes and disorders of others , wherupon obiected : and how farre it should affect vs. fol. 124. The nearenesse of the State and Church , and the great errours found by the Separatists in the French and Dutch Churches . fol. 127. Conuersation with the world . fol. 132. The impure mixtures of the Church of England . fo . 133. The iudgement of our owne , and our neighbours of our Church . fol. 137. The issue of Separation . fol. 140 The Brownists scornefull opinion of our people . fol. 143. The Conclusion from the fearefull aunswere of Separation . fol. 144. Errata . Read welbeloueds for welbelouedst . Epist pa. vlt. Con●iction for coniunction . pag. 32. line 19. Vncharitablenesse for vnchariblenesse . pag. 47. line 18. Optat. lib. 3. for Opt. lib. 30. marg . pag. 49. Rules of Christ , for rules Christ. pag. 50. line 1. Places ; onwards . for places onwards . pag. 66. line . 18. Our Ministerie for your Ministerie . pag. 67. line 8. That houses for what houses pag. 80. line 16. waryof , for weary of , pag. 88. line 16. shrifte for strife . pa. 99. l. 12 Enuie for annoy , pag. 103. line 13. Ingenuously , for ingeniously , pag. 104. line . 19 which are ; in , for which are in , pag. 107. line 13. Besides , many quotations in the margent , are misplaced ; the matter will leade the Reader to the right place : The words of the aduersarie are onely those , which haue this Note of Sep. set before them . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A02522-e100 Meam iniuriam patiētertuli impietatem contra Spōsam Christi ferre non potui . Hier ad Vigilant . Notes for div A02522-e180 Zach. 8. 19. Matth. 18. 7. Otho Frising . ex Philon. Vr. Chaldaeorum Ruffiin . Eccl●s . hist. l. 2. c. 26. Dan. 3. Vid. Treatis of certain● godly Minist . ag . Barr. Notes for div A02522-e310 1. Retorted . S●p . It is a hard thing euen for sober minded men in cases of controuersie , to vse soberly the aduantages of the times : vpon which whilst men are mounted on high , they vse to behold such as they oppose too ouerlie , and not without contempt ; and so are oft times emboldened to roule vpon them as from aloft very weake and weightlesse discourses , thinking any sleight and slender opposition sufficient to oppresse those vnderlings , whom they haue ( as they suppose ) at so great an aduantage . Vpon this very presumption it commeth to passe , that this Author vndertaketh thus solemnly and seuerely to censure a cause , whereof ( as appeareth in the sequell of the discourse ) hee is vtterly ignorant : which had he beene but halfe so carefull to haue vnderstood , as hee hath beene forward to censure , hee would either haue beene ( I doubt not ) more equall towards it , or more weightie against it . * 2. Confuted . * Hier. Marco . presbyt . De cauernis cellularum damnamus orbem ; in sacco & cinere volutati de Episcopis sententiam ferimus : Quid facit sub tunica paenitentis regius animus ? Cypr. l. 3. Ep. 9. Haec sunt initia haereticorum , vt sibi placean : , vt praepositum superbo tumore contemnant . Harison once theirs , in Psal. 122. of Brown. Antichristian pride and bitternes . Bredw . pref . M Brinsly his pref . to the 2. part of the VVatch. Optat. Mil. de Donat. Collegae non eritis , si●o litis , fratres estis &c. Disclaimed by themselues . Answer against Broughton page . 21. Separat . schism . M. Giff. an ignorant Priest. Barr. p. 64. Confer . of D. And. & M. Huchius . with Barrow . M. Spr. 3. 〈◊〉 . siderat . Iren. l. 1. Per singulos . dies nouum aliquod adsectant . &c. * Bar. Confer . with Hutchins . fo . 1. Browne estat● of true Christians Defence of true Christians against the Doct. of Oxford . Iohnson ( against Iacob . ) passim . Barr. against Gyfford . Sepa . As this Epistle is come to mine hands , so I wish the answere of it may come to the hands of him that occasioned it : Intreating the Christian Reader , in the name of the Lord , vnpartially to behold without either preiudice of cause , or respect of person , what is written on both sides , and so from the Court of a sound conscience to giue iust iudgement . Notes for div A02522-e550 To M. Smith and M. Rob. Ring-leaders of the late separation at Amsterd . Charact. of the Beast , written by M. Smith . Pref. Be it knowne therefore to all the separation , that we account them in respect of their constitution to be as very an Harlot , as either her Mother the Church of England , or her Grandmother Rome is &c. Iterato Baptizatus scienter , it erato Dominum crucifigit . De consecr . dist . 4. Qui vis &c. * The crime of separation , how great . Sep. The crime here obiected is separation , a thing very odious in the eyes of all them from whom it is made : as euermore casting vpon them the imputation of euill , whereof all men are impatient : And hence it commeth to pass● that the Church of England can better brooke the vilest persons continuing communion with it , then any whomsoeuer separating from it , though vpon neuer so ▪ iust and well grounded reasons . Vid. Iohnson Preface to his Inquirie . Esay . 5. 20. M. Penry in his Disc. of this subiect . Num. 16 31. ●xod . 32. 30. Prou. 21. 2. Notes for div A02522-e720 Sepa . And yet separation from the world , and so from the men of the world , and so from the Prince of the world that raigneth in them , and so from whatsoeuer is contrarie to God , is the first steppe to our communion with God , and Angels , and good men , as the first steppe to a Ladder , is to leaue the earth . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Num. 18. 14 : Num. 16. 9. Deut. 10. 1. Exod. 13. 12. Leuit. 15. 21. Deut. 4. 41. Rom. 1. 1. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . 1. Thess. vlt. ad fin . Iere. 15. 19. Vide Tremel ▪ & Iun. Num. 16. Mat. 15. ad fin . 2. Chro. 19 2. 1. Cor. 6. ad fin . Nulla cum malis Conuivia vel colloquia misceantur , simusque ab ijs tam separati , quam sunt illi ab Ecclesia Dei profugi . Cypr. l. 1. Epist. ad Cornel. 2. Char act . of Beast praef . Iohns . Inquir . Ioh. 6. 68. H. Cl. Epistle before Treatis of sinne ag . Holy Gh. Neque propter paleam relinquim are am Domini , neque propter pisces malos rumpimus retia Domini . August . Ep. 48. Answ. Counterpoyson p. 2. Counter p. p. 7 & 8. &c Notes for div A02522-e1110 Sep. The separation we haue made in respect of our knowledge , and obedience , is indeed late , and new yet is it in the nature and causes thereof as auncient as the Gospell , which was first founded in the enmity which God himselfe put betwixt the seede of the woman , and the seede of the serpent , Gen. 3 , 15 ●useb : h●st Eccl : Hen : Steph. Ap●l . Herod . Fo● A●t & monum . H. N. his booke Gal. 1. 6. Eph. 6. 17. Colos. 1 5. 1. Tin. 1. 11. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Sep. Which enmity hath not onely beene successiuely continued , but also visibly manifested by the actuall separation of all true Churches , from the world in their collection and constitution , before the law , vnder the law , and vnder the Gospell , Gen. 4 : 13 , 14 , 16 & 6. 1 , 2 , & 7 : 1 , 7. with 1 Pet : 3 , 20 , 21 & 12. 2 I●● 20 , 24 , 26 Neh : 9 , 2 Ioh : 17 , 14 , 16 , Act. 2 , 40 , & 19 , 9 , 1 : Cor 6 , 17 : Iren. de Valentin . l. 1. Ianumerabil● multitudin●m scripturarum quas ipsi sin●erunt afferunt ad stuporem insensatorum . Vid. Preface to Master Iacobs and Iohnsons Confer . & Barr. pass . Descript , of true visib . Ch : Nihil autem ●irum fi & ex ipsius instrumento a●tentur argumenta , cum oporteat haereses esse , quae esse non possent si non & perperam scripturae intelligi possent . Tertull. de resur . Ibid : So Barrow tearmes Mast. Gyff . Re●ut . p. 102. Si Christianus Iudaicae praeuaricanti carnaliter coniungatur , a commumone Ecclesiaesegregetur . Dist. 28. q. 1 Caue . & cap. si quis Iudaicae , &c. 1. Pet. 3. 19. 2. Pet. 2. 5. Notes for div A02522-e1590 Sep. Which separation the Church of England neither hath made , nor doth make , but stands actually one with althat part of the world within the kingdom , without separation : for which cause amongst others , we haue chosen by the grace of God , rather to separate our selues to the Lord from it , then with it from him , in the visible constitution of it . In his Preface to the Reader , and in his causes of separ defended p. 4 Eiusdem p. 10 Resutat . of M. Gyff . p 22. & 2. Transgress . p 51 , 52. & 55. 66 & 70. 85. & 86. &c. Inconstanc● of Brown p. ●o . Inquiry into M. White , confessed by Fr. Iohnson p. 63. Passag . 'twixt Clifton and Smith : And concerning the constitution of the Churches , &c. But the constituting of Churches now after the defection of Antichrist may more properly be called a repairing then a constituting , &c. p. 60. psal . 106. Matth. 23. Reuel : 34. Reuel . ● . 24. Notes for div A02522-e1800 Bar. p. 22. & 55. Fr. Iohns . ag . M. H. Act. & Mon. passim . Troubl . and excom . pa. 191 M. Spr. p. 1. Fr. Iun. lib. de Eccles. Ratihabitio retroha●● , &c. Subsequens consensus Iacob in Leam fecit cos coniuges , d. 29. q 1. S. sed obijcitur Barr. ag . Gyff Notes for div A02522-e1950 H. Answ. Counter p. p. 17● Colos. 2. 5. Tertull. de Prescript . Tu vt homo extrimsecus vitumquemque nosti , putas quod vides , vides autem quonsque oculos habes , sed oculi Domini sunt alti , Homo in faciem , Deus in praecordiae contemplatur . Principles & inferences concerning the visible Ch. An. 1607 , p : 13 Notes for div A02522-e2080 Part of Constitution , how farr requisite , and whether hindred by Constraint . D. 〈…〉 Brownists . Brow● 〈◊〉 of true Christians Inquir into M. White . Answ. ibid. Arist. Pol. 3 : c : 1. Arist. Pol : 3 : c. 1 : Edesius & Frumentius pueri a Meropio Tyrio-Philosoph● in Indian deportati , postea ibi Christianam religionem plantarunt . Ruffin . l. 1. ● 9. Faemina i●ter Iberos . Notes for div A02522-e2210 2. Chron. 33. 16 2. Chr. 34. 32. 33 2. Chron. ●5 . 13 : Barr. ag . Ciff . Brow. Reform . without . tarry : Greene wood Confer with Cooper . Brow. refor : without tar . Confer . with D. And ▪ M. Hutch ▪ Confer . with D. An. Refor . without tar . Ber. Fides Suadenda non : cogenda . Counterpois . Dixit Paterfamilias seruis Quoscunque inueneritis , cogite intrare &c. Aug. ●p . 48. Pless . de Eccles. c. 10 Augustin . Quod si cogiper legem aliquem vel ad bona licuisset , vos ipsi miseri 〈◊〉 nobis ad fidem purissimam cogi debuistis , sed absit a nostra conscientia , vt ad 〈…〉 . August . Epist. 48. 〈◊〉 . 68. Qui freneticum ligat , & qui 〈…〉 Quod 〈◊〉 umus sanctum est . Notes for div A02522-e2450 Bar. and Greenew . pas●im : H. answ . Counterp . Act & Monum . Edit . 5. p. 1180. Counterp . 226. P. Martyr . P. Fagius . Bucer . &c. Sixe Arti. 1547 Pag. 1182. Col. 2. 60. Act. & . Monum Pag. 999. & 1000. Act & Monum Edit . 5. p. 1002. Bar. ag . Gyff . Conference . with Sperin . & M. Egerton . Greenw . & Bar. Arg. to M. Car. twr . M. Trauers , M. Chark . Browne Reform . without . tarrying . M. Smith ag . R. Clifton . Principl . & I●fer . pag. 11. Notes for div A02522-e2780 Separ . To the Title of Ring-leader , wherewith it pleaseth this Pistler to stile me , I answere that if the thing I haue done be good , it is good and commendable to haue beene forward in it ; if it be euill , let it be reproued by the light of Gods word , and that God to whom I haue done that I haue done , will ( I doubt not ) giue me both to see , and to heale mine errour by speedy repentance : if I haue fledde away on foote , I shall returne on Horse-backe : But as I durst neuer s●t foote into this way , but vpon a most sound and vnresist able conuiction of conscience by the word Ier. 23. 32. Ezech. 13. 2. of God ( as I was perswaded ) so must my retyring be wrought by more solide reasons from the same word then are to be found in a thousand such pretty pamphlets and formall flourishes as this is Pro. 9. 21. Notes for div A02522-e2950 Separ . Your pitying of vs , and sorrowing for vs , especially for the wrong , done by vs , were in you commendable affections , if by vs iustly occasio●ed ; but if your Church bee deepelye drencht in Apostacie , and you crie Peace Peace , when suddaine and certaine desolation is at hand , it is you that do wrong , though you make the complaint : and so being cruell towards your selues , & your owne , whome you flatter : you cannot be truely pitifull towards others whom you bewaile . A Treatise of the Ministery of England , against M. H pag. 125. H. Amsworth in his fore-speech to his Count. Inqu . into VVh . Tertul. l. de Orat Tert. l. de praescript . So de Virginib , Veland . That no contin●ance of time can prejudice T●uth . Sime reprehendas errantem , patere me quae so errare cum talibus , Aug. Hi●r . Fr. Iohnsonin his An●w . to T. VVh p. 26. Aunsw ag . Broughton , p. 17 These Dutch Ch. offend not only in practicall disorders , but in their Constitution , Gouerament w●●sh p , &c. Troubl . and Excom . at Amsterd . p. 10. Brown charged with it by Barr. Letter . to M. Egert . ● . Iohnson ibid. p. 194. Fr. Iohnson Inq. Act. 15. 38. Departing . ● . not going with them Barr. Pres. to the Separation d●fend . In his obseruations p. 251. VVe doe not there condemne the parish Assemblies as separated from Christ , but tr●ue them not as yet gathered to Christ. So Conser . ●●th Sperin . p. 9. Fr. Iohnson . Inquir . pag. 36. H. Bar. Obseruat . 242. No faults disanull the being of a Church , vntill contempt of Gods word be added thereunto after due conuiction ▪ The faults & errors of a Church may be seuerely reproued and conuinced according to the quality thereof , and yet the Church not be condemned . N. B. Iob. ●4 . 19. Vulg. edit . C●pr . Epi ad Cornel. Non est maius pechcaatum quam Apostat are a Deo. Aug. in Ps. 18. Prou. 6. 12. Iob 34. 18. Ezec 2. 3. Apocal. 2. 3 , Thou hast laboured , and not giuen in . Tert●l . de Pat , Si hominibus Pla●●t●r , Dominus offenditur , sivero illud entimur & laboramus vt 〈◊〉 dco piacere , & 〈◊〉 & maledicta debemus humana contemnere . confessed by M. Ioh●s . loc . seq . Inq. of Th. VVhite p. 65. Gen 49. 7. Sep. But I will not discourage you in this affection , least we find few in the same fault : the most in stead of pitty and compassion , affoording vs nothing but fury and indignation . Cypr. de s●●●plic . prael . Quid facit in corde Christiano luporum seritas & canum rabies ? August . Confess . l. 9. c. 9. Qual●a solet eructare turgens indigesta discordia ? Notes for div A02522-e3520 Se● . The first action laid against vs , is of vnnaturalnes and ingratitude towards our mother the Church of England , for our causelesse separation from her : to which vniust accusation , and triuiall querimony , our most iust defence hath beene , and is , that to our knowledge we haue done her no wrong : we do freely , and with all thankfulnesse acknowledge euery good thing she hath and which our selues haue there receiued . H. Barr. Praef. to the separ . defended , Causes of separ . def . p. 12. Confer . with D. Andr. Praef. to separ . def . Gyff . refuted touch Donat. Obseruat . of M. H. Bar. p. 239. Fr. Iohns . Reas. 9 , ag . M. Iac. p. 74. Iohns . ag . M. Iac. Except . 3. Nota Bene. Ibid. Counterpoys . pag. 127. & 131. Barr. Confer . With M. Sperm as Bar hims hath written it . pag. 9 Fr. Iob. 7. Reas. aga . Iac p. 64. G. Iohns . Praef. to the Pastor . Notes for div A02522-e3740 Russin . l. 2. Eccl. hist. c , 3. Aug. Epist. & Possid . in vita Aug. Euseb hist. eccl . Damnis grauissimis & caedibus afficiebant , armati diuersis telis . Socrates l. 2. c. 22. & 30. Cypr. l. 2. Ep. 8. Nouati pater in vico fame mortuns nec postea ab illo sepultus . Sic Optat. l. 1. Purpurus Donatista occidit sororis filios &c. G. Iohns . Discourse of troubles and Excommunications at Amsterdam printed 1603 Ibid. p. 5. Discouery of Brownisme . Vid. G. Iohns . booke . Inq. into Th. VVh . Discou . Same Epist. p. 15 They say Fi●●a ●ponsae . Mihi accusatio etiam vera contra fratrem displ●cet Hieron . aduersus Ruffin . Notes for div A02522-e3980 Bar. exam . before the Archb. and L. Anderson Browne state of Christians d. 39 Qui non habet quod det , quomodo det ? vox Donat. Opta . l. 1 Barrow . supra . Fr. ●●hns . ag . M. I●cob p. 41. 〈◊〉 . 2. Sep. The superabundant grace of God couering and passing by the manifolde enormiti●s in that Church wherewith these good things are inseparably commingled , and wherein we also through ignorance and infirmity were inwrapp ed. Sep. But what thē ? should we still haue continued in sinne , that grace might haue abounded ? If God haue caused a further truth like a light in a darke place , to shine in our hearts , should wee still haue mingled that light with darkenesse , contrary to the Lords owne practise ? Ge. 1. 4. and expresse precept , 2. Cor. 6. 14. Gen. 1. 2. Es. 5. 20. VVoe to them that put darknesse for light . Es. 59. 9. Notes for div A02522-e4170 Deu. 21. 22 ▪ 23. Sep. But the Church of England ( say you ) is our Mother , and so ought not to be auoided ▪ But say I , we must not so cleaue to holy mother Church , as we neglect our heauenly father , and his commandements , which we know in that estate we could not but transgresse , and that heynously , and against our consciences , not onely in the want of many Christian Ordinances , to which we are most straightly bound , both by Gods word and our owne necessities . Mater Ecclesia , mater est etiam matris nostrae . Aug. Ep. 38. Notes for div A02522-e4270 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Nemo per exteriorem violentiam corrumpitur : si interior innocentia custodiatur . c. ● . q. 3. Custodi . &c. Ad docendum populum Israeliticum , omnipotens deus prophetis praeconium dedi ▪ , non regibus imperauit . Aug. l. 2. contr . Gau. c. 11. Barr. causes of scpera , def . p. 6. Brow. Reform : without tarrying . Aug. contr . Petilia n. l. 2. Optatus Mileuit . lib. 3● Barr. 2. Exa●●i● nation before the L. Archb. and L. Chiefe-Iustice . compar . with his reply to M. Gyff . Art. 5. ● Sam. 24. 6. Num. 16. 3. Counter poys . p. 230. 2. Chr. 13. 2. Chr. 14. & 15 ▪ 2. Chr. 29. 2. Chr. 30. 2. Chr. 34. Ezr. 2. & 3. 2. Ezr. 4. 23. 24 ▪ Notes for div A02522-e4680 a August . Ep. 58 ▪ Pastores autem & doctores qu●s maxime vt discernerem voluisti eosdem puto esse sicut & tibi visum est , vt non alios Pastores , alios Doctores intelligeremus , sed ideo cum praedixisset Pastores , subiunxisse Doctores , vt intelligerent Pastores ad officium suum pertinere doctrinam Barr. ag . Gyff . inueighs for this cause against the Consistory of Gene●a . Fr ▪ Iohns . complaints of the Dutch and Fr. Churches . Discription of a visible Church , cannot make a Distinct. in the Definition of their Offices . State of Christians 119. Descript. of vis . Ch. H. Clap. Epist before his treatise of sinne ag : the holy Ghost . Brownists fourth Position . Trouble and ●xcom . at Amsterdam . Fr. Iohns . in a Letter to M. Smith . Notes for div A02522-e4800 Nulla necessitas maior est charitate . H●eron . Apol. ad Ruff. Fr. Iun. de Eccl. Sed accidunt persaepe tempora quibus aut noua Ecclesia generatur , aut altera pars interumpitur ( scilicet 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) et tamen Ecclesia esse non d●sinit , formà nimirum essentiali adhuc permanente . Act 7. beg . Cypr. l. 3. Ep. 9. Meminisse diaconi debent quoniam Apostolos ( id est ) Episcopos & praepositos Dominus elegit , Diaconos autem post ascensum Domini in caelos Apostoli sibi constituerunt Episcopatus su & Ecclesiae ministros . Rom. 1. 8. 1. Cor. 1. 5. 1. Thess. 1. 7. Gal ▪ 4. 15. Phil. 1. 2. Notes for div A02522-e4970 Sep. But also in our most sinfull subiection to many Antichristian enormities , which we are bound to eschue as hell . Fr. Iohns . ag . M. Iacob . Bar. Gyff . refuted , i. Transgress p. 28. Notes for div A02522-e5060 Sep. She is our Mother ▪ o may she be , and yet not the Lords wife , euery mother of children is not a wife . Ammi and Ruhae●ah were bidden to plead with their mother Apostate Israel , & plead that she was not the Lords wife , nor he her husband . Ho. 2. 1. 2. Cypr. de simpli● . Praelator , Adulterari non potest sponsa Christi , incorrupta est & Pudica . 1. Kin. 12. 29. Hos. 2. 16. 2. 13. Sep. And though you forbid vs a thousand times , yet must we plead : not to exccuse our fault , but to iustify our innocency : And that not only nor so much in respect of our selues , as of the truth which without sacriledge we maynot suffer to be condēned vnheard . And if you yet heare her not , rather blame yourselues as deafe , then vs as dumb . Hierom. ad Eustoch . Epitaph Paulae ex Psal 67. August . contr . Epist. Parmen . li. 1. Epistol . Iuni. ad Separ . Notes for div A02522-e5270 Giff. refut . 2. transg . Sep. Is not babylon the mother of Gods people , whom he therefore commandeth to depart out of her , least being partakers of her sinnes , they also partake of her plagues . Reuel . 18. 2. Answ. for● speach to Counter poys . Sep. And to conclude , what say you more against vs , for your mother the Church of England , then the Papists do for their mother and your mothers mother , the Church of Rome , against you , whom they condemn as vn-naturall bastards and impious Patricides in your separations from her , A Simone Zelota Niceph. Alij a Ios. Arimath , cuius hic sepulchrum cernitur . Angli Pascha Graeco more celebrarunt . Iacob Armin. Disp Cant. 8. 8. Fr. Iun. lib ▪ sing . de Eccle. Phil. Morn du Plesses . Lib. de Eccles. cap. 10. Counterp . p. 171. 1. P●nry . Exam. before M. Fanshaw & Iust. Yong. Fr. Iun. l. de Eccles . M. Hooker Eccles. pol. Du Plesses . l. de Eccl Iacob . Armin. disput . D. Reynolds Thes. D. Feild of the Ch. Reuel . 3. & 2. Notes for div A02522-e5530 Sep. And were not Luther , Zuingli● Cranmer , Latimer and the rest begot to the Lord in the wombe of the Romish Church , did they not receiue the knowledge of his truth when they stood actuall members of it ? whō notwithstanding afterwards they forsooke , and that iustly for her fornications . Notes for div A02522-e5620 Sep. But here in the name of the Church of England , you wash your hands of all Babylonish abominations , which you pretend you haue forsaken , and her for , and with them . And in this regard you speake thus : The Reformation you haue made of the many and maine corruptions of the Romish Ch. we do ingenuously acknowledge , and de● withall imbrace with you all the truths which to our knowledge you haue receiued in stead of them ▪ But Rome was not built all in a day . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Hierom. Apol. aduers. Ruffi . 1. l. 1. ●tissa est mihi ●audatio tua , id est accusatio mea . Bonum ex integra natura , malum ex singulari defectu . Sep. The mistery of iniquity did aduance it selfe by degrees , and as the rise was , so must the fall be . That man of sinne , and lawlesse man , must languish and die away of a consumption . 2. Thes. 2 8. And what though manie of the highest Towers of Babel , and of the strongest Pillers also be demolished , & pulled down , yet may the building stand still , though tottering to and fro ( as it doth ) and only vnderpropped and vpheld with the shoulder and arme of flesh , without which in a very moment it would fall flat vpon , and lie leuell with the earth . Notes for div A02522-e5780 Bar. & Gr. ag . Giff. Confer . & Eam . passim , Pe●●y in his exa . Sep. You haue renounced many false Doctrines in Popery , and in theire plac●s embraced the truth . Exod. 1. 2. 3. &c. Ier. 20. 1. Ier. 5. vlt. But what if this truth bee taught vnder the same hatefull Prelacy , in the same deuised office of Ministery : and confused communion of the prophane multitude , and that mingled with many greeuous errors . Iohns . Pres. to his 7. Reas. Iohns . 7. Reas. p. 66. Tit. 3. 4. Psal. 69. 4. Notes for div A02522-e5990 Mat 28. 19. Eph. 4. 11. 2 Tim. 2. 2. 1 , Tim. 3. 1. Act. 13. 1. Tim. 3. 9. 1. Tim. 5. 22. 2 Tim. 2. 15. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Discourse of the Trouble & excem . at Amst. Certaine Arg. ag the Com. with the Minist . of England . Counterpoys . Vbires convenit quis non verba contemnat , ? August . de Ordin . 2. Brow. state of Christians . Notes for div A02522-e6200 Perplexae sunt istae duae ( initates in hoc seculo inuicemque permixtae donec vltimo iudicto dirimantur . Aug. de Ciuit. d. l. 1. 33. Eze. 18. 20. Orig. Vnusquisque propter proprium peccatum morietur , in proprid iusticiâ viuet , &c. Fr. Iohns . Artic. ag . the Dutch & Fr. Answ. ag . Brough ton . Discouer . of Brown. Troubles and excom . at Amst. Charact. pres . Cypr. Ep. 2. Iidem in publico accusatores in occulto rei , in semetipsos censores pariter & nocentes : Damnant foris , quod intus operantur , Notes for div A02522-e6370 ●arr . Conser . with M. Hutchins . &c. & D. ●ndr . Sep. Shall some generall truth●s ( yea though few of them in the particulars may bee foundly practised ) sweeten and sanctifie the other errours ? doth not one heresie make an hereticke , and doth not a little leauen , whether in Doctrine or manners le●uen the whol lumpe ? 1. Cor. 5. 6. Gal. 5 9. Hag. 2 13. If Antichrist held not many truthes , wherewith should he countenance so many forgeries , or how could his work be a mistery of iniquitie ? which in Rome is more grosse , and palpable , but in England spun with a finer threed , and so more hardly discouered . But to wade no further in vniuersalities ; wee will take a little time to examine such particulars , as you your selfe haue picked out for your most aduantage , to see whether you bee so cleare of Babels Towers in your owne euidence , as you beare the world in hand . Inquir . into M. white p. 35. Mat. 13. 33. M. Bredwell . Hierom. In hoc Ignoratis , quia malo exemplo possunt plurimi interire ? Sed & per vnius delictum in omne populum Indaeorum iram dei legimus adue nisse . 1. Tim. 3. 16. Notes for div A02522-e6530 Sep. Where ( say you ) are those proud towers of their Vniuersall Hierarchie ? One in Lambeth , another in Fulham , and wheresoeuer a pontificall : Prelate is , or his Chauncellor , Commissary , or other subordinate , there is a Tower of Babel vnruinated . To this end I desire to know of you whether the office of Arch-bishoppes , Bishoppes , and the rest of that ranke , were not parts of that accursed Hierarchie in queene Maries dayes , and members of that man of sinne ? If they were then as shoulders and armes vnder that head the Pope , and ouer the inferiour members ; and haue now the same Ecclesiasticall Iurisdiction deriued and continued vpon them , wherof they were possessed in the time of Popery ( as it is plaine they haue by the first Parliament of queene Elizabeth ) Why are they not still members of that body , though the head the Pope be cut off ? 7. Arg. 1. Answ. Counterpoys . Character of the beast ag . R. Clifton . Arch-deacon . Beatissimus Papa passi●n in Epist . Ignat. ad Trallian . Euseb. l. 3. Ex Euseb. Hier. Catalog script . Epiph. ●nio , &c. Cal. Instit l. 4. Hieron . Euagrio Heming . Potest . Eccles. clas . 3. c. 10. Hinc Ecclesia purior secuta tempora Apostolorum , fecit alios Patriarchas , quorum erat curare vt Episcupi cuiusque d●ocescos rite eligerentur , vt suum munus Episcopi singuli probe administrarent &c. Arist. Pol. 7. Potentia diuitiarum , & pauper tatis humilitas vel humiliorem vel inferiorem Episcopum non facit . Hieron . Euagr. Notes for div A02522-e7010 Sep. And so do all the Reformed Churches in the world ( of whose testimony you boast so loud ) renounce the Prelacy of England , as part of that Pseudo-Clergie , and Antichristian Hierarchie deriued from Rome . Answ. Counterpoys . 3 Consid. Ps. 10. 7. Bez. de ministr . Euang. c. 18. Cited also by D. Down p. 29. Heming . Iudicat caeteros ministros suis Episcopis obtem perare debere . Potest . Eccles. c. 10. Notes for div A02522-e7160 Article . 21 Sep. Infallibility of iudgement . It seemes the sacred ( so called ) Synode , assumeth little lesse vnto her selfe in her determinations : otherwise , how durst she decree so absolutely as she doth touching things reputed indifferent , viz. that all men in all places must submit vnto them without exception , or limitation . Except she could infallibly determine , that these her ceremonies thus absolutely imposed , should edifie all men at all times , how durst she thus impose them ? To exact obedience in and vnto them , whether they offend or offend not , whether they edifie or destroy , were intollerable presumption . Obligatio fine coercione nalla . Reg. Iur. Non iura dicenda sunt , &c. de Ciuitat . l. 19. Answ. to the Admon . p. 279. cited also by D. Sparkes . p. 14. Aug. Ep. 86. In his enim rebus , de quibus nih●● certi statuit scriptura diuina , mos populi Dei vel instituta maiorum pro lege tenenda sunt . Li●ius Decad. 4. l. 4. Nulla lex satis commoda omnibus est , id ▪ modo quaeritur , si maiori parti & in summa prodest . Cum consedissent sancti & religiosi Episcopi . Bin. Tom. 1. p. 239. Sancta Synod . Carthagi . 4. sub Anastasio . 553. Sancta & Pacifica Synod Antiocben . 1. p. 420. Sancta dei & Apostolica Synodus 413. Peruenit ad sanctam synodum can . Nic. 18. 309. Sancta synod . La●dicena . 288. Notes for div A02522-e7410 Sep. Dispensations with the lawes of God and sins of men . To let passe your Ecclesiasticall consistories wherein sins and absolutions from them , are as venall and saleable as at Rome . Is it not a law of the Eternall God , that the Ministers of the Gospell , the Bishops or Elders should be apt and able to teach ? 1. Tim 3 ▪ 2. Tit. 1. 9. and is it not their greeuous sin to be vnapt hereunto . Esa 56. 10 11. And. yet who know-not that the Patrons amongst you present , that the Bishops institute , the Archdeacons induct , the Churces recei●e and the Lawes both Ciuill and Ecclesiasticall allow and iustify Ministers vnapt and v●able to teach . G. Ioh. Trou . and Exco . at Amste . Insufficiency & 〈◊〉 reside●cy of Ministers . Insufficiency & non residency of Ministers . Sep. Is it not a law of the eternall God that the Elders should feede the flocke ouer which they are set , labouring amongst them in the word and doctrine ? Act. 20. 28. 1. Pet : 5. 1. 2. and is it not sinne to omit this duety ? Can. 34. M. Hooker 5. b. Eccles. Pol. Pag. 26. 3. D. Down . of the office and dignity of the Mi●ist . Dispensations for pluralities . Sep. Plead not for Baall . Your dispensations for Non-residency & pluralities of Benefices , as for two , three , or more ; yea tot quot , as many as a man will hau●e or can get are so many dispensations with the lawes of God , and sinnes of men . These things are too impious to be defended , and too manifest to be denyed . Counterpoys . p. 179. Dist. 34. Can. lector . Papa potest contra Apostolum dispensare . & Caus. 25. q. 1. Can. sunt quidam . Dispensatin Euangelio &c. De concess . praebend . Tit. 8. Can. Proposuit Secundum plenitu● inem potestatis de iure possumus supra ius dispensare . & Glossa paulo insr. Papa contra Apostolum dispensat . &c. Sum. confer . p. 52. M. VVhites discou . Notes for div A02522-e7720 Bar. ag . Gyff . Inconst. of Brow. p. 113 Ibid. Inquir . into Th. VVhite . Sep. Disposition of Kingdomes and Deposition of Princes . You are wiser and I hope honester then thus to attempt , thogh that receiued maxime amongst you No ceremony , no Bishoppe ; no Bishoppe , no King ; sauors too strongly of that weed ▪ but what though you be loyall to earthly Kings and their crownes , and Kingdomes , yet if you be Traytors and rebels against the King of his Church Iesus Christ , and the scepter of his Kingdome , not suffering him y his lawes and officers to reigne ouer you , but in stead of them do stoupe to Antichrist in his offices and ordinances : shall your loyaltie towards men excuse your treasons against the Lord ? though you now crie neuer so lowd we haue no King , but Caesar , Ioh. 19. 15. yet is there an other King , one Iesus , which shall returne , and passe a heauy doome vpon the rebellious , Luc. 19. 27. These enemies which would not haue me reigne ouer them , bring them and slay them before me . P. 36. Es. 36. 13. Notes for div A02522-e7890 Sep. Parting stakes with God in con●ersion . Not to speake of the errour of vniuersall grace , and consequently , of freewil that groweth on apace amongst you , what doe you else but put in for a part with God in conuersion though not through freedome of will , yet in a deuised Ministery , the meanes of conuersion : it being the Lords peculiar as well to appoint the outward Ministery of conuersion , as to giue the inward grace . 1. Cor. 3. 9. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Notes for div A02522-e8000 De Consecr . d. 2. Ego Bereng . Apol. Sep. Where ( say you ) are those rotten heapes of Transubstantiating of bread ? And where , say I , learned you your deuout kneeling to or before the bread , but from that error of Transubstantiatiō ? Yea what lesse can it insinuate , then eyther that , or some other the like Idolatrous conceipt . If there were not something more in the bread and wine then in the water at Baptisme , or in the word read or preached , Why should such solemne kneeling be so seuerely pressed at that time , rather then vpon the other occasions : And well and truely haue your own men affirmed that it were farre lesse sinne , and appeareance of an Idolatry that is nothing so grosse , to tye men in their prayers , to kneele before a Crucifixe then before the bread and wine , and the reason followeth , for that , papists commit an Idolatry farre ▪ more grosse and odious in worshipping the bread , then in worshipping any other of their Images or Idols whatsoeuer . Apol of the Min. of Lincoln . Dioc. part . 1. pag. 66. Notes for div A02522-e8130 Sep. Adoring of Images . To let passe your deuout kneeling vnto your Ordinary when you take the Oath of Canonicall obedience , or receiue absolution at his hands , which ( as the maine actions are religious ) must needes be religious adoration , what is the adoring of your truely humane ( though called Diuine ) seruice-booke in and by which you worship God , as the Papists doe by their Images ? If the Lord Iesus in his testament haue not commanded any such book , it is accursed and abhominable if you thinke he haue , shew vs the place where , that we may know it with you . or manyfest vnto vs that euer the Apostles vsed themselues or commended to the Churches after them any such seruice-booke . Was not the Lord in the Apostles time , and Apostolicke Churches purely and perfectly worshipped , when the Officers of the Church in their ministration manifested the spririt of prayer which they had receiued according to the present necessities and occasions of the Church , before the least parcell of this patchery came into the world . And might not the Lord now be also purely and perfecty worshipped though this printed Image , with the painted and carued Images , were sent backe to Rome , yea or cast to hell from whence both they and it came ? Speake in your selfe , might not the Lord be intirely worshipped with pure & holy worship , thogh none other book but the holy Scriptures were brought into the Church : If yea ( as who can deny it that knowes what the worship of God meaneth ) what then doth your seruice-booke there . The word of God is perfect and admitteth of none addition . Cursed be he that addeth to the word of the Lord , and cursed be that which is added , and so bee your great Idoll the Communion Booke , though like Nabuchadnezzars Image some parte of the matter be gold and siluer , which is also so much the more detestable by how much it is the more highly aduanced amongst you . Paulus . in vitae Ambros. Passag . twixt clifton an● Smith . AEgypti● vbi lautè epulati sunt , post caenam id faciunt . Socr. l. 5. 21. Platia . initio . Caluin . Ep. ad Protect . Angl. Ep. 87. Answ. to the Minist . Counterp 237. Counterp 236. Omnibus aricubus gr●gis ( id est ) Apostolis suis dedit morem orandi , dimitte nob●s &c. Aug. Ep. 89. Apolog. p. 170. Accessimus &c. H Bar. ag . Gyff . Notes for div A02522-e8480 Sep. Multitudes of Sacraments . The number of sacraments seemes greater amongst you by one at the least , then Christ hath left in his Testament , and that is Marriage ; which howsoeuer you doe not in expresse tearmes call a sacrament , ( no more did Christ and the Apostles call Baptisme and the supper sacraments , ) yet do you in truth create it a sacrament , in the administration and vse of it . There are the parties to be married and their marriage , representing Christ and his Church , and their spirituall Vnion : to which mysterie , saith the Oracle of your seruice-Booke expresly , God hath consecrated them : there is the Ring hallowed by the said s●ruice-Booke , ( whereon it must be laid ) for the Element ; there are the wordes of consecration ; In the name of the Father , and of the Sonne , and of the holy Ghost ; there is the place , the Church ; the time vsually , the Lords day ; the Minister , the Parish-Priest . And being made as it is , a part of Gods worship , and of the Ministers office , what is it if it be not a sacrament ? It is no part of prayer , or preaching , and with a sacrament it hath the greatest consimilitude , but an Idoll I am sure it is in the celebration of it , being made a Ministeriall duty and part of Gods worshippe , without warrant , call it by what name you will. Br. state of Christians . 172. Notes for div A02522-e8620 Sep. Power of Iudulgences . Your Court of faculties from whence your dispensations and tolerations for non-residencie , and plurality of Benefices are had ▪ together with your commuting of penances and absoluing one man for another . Take away this power frō the Prelats & you main the beast in a lim . Notes for div A02522-e8710 Sep. Necessity of Confessions . In your high Commission Court very absolute , wher by the Oath Ex Officio men are constrained to accuse themselues of such things as whereof no man will or can accuse thē ; what necessity is laid vpon men in this case , let your prisons witnes D. Cosens his Apol. D. Andr. determ . de Iure iurando 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Num. 5. 12. Iosh. 7. 19. 1. Sam. 14 43. G. Iohns . & M. Crud . Trouble at Amsterd p. 132. Non potest quis in vna causa ●●dem momento duas portare personas , vt in eodem iudicio & accusator sit & i●dex . Optat. Mileuit . l. 7. Notes for div A02522-e8920 Sep. Prosite of Pilgr●mages . Though you haue lost the shrines of saints , yet you reteine their daies and those holy as the Lords day , and that with good profit to your spirituall carnall Courts , from such as prophane them with the least & most lawfull labour , notwithstanding the libertie of the six daies labor , which the Lord hath giuē : & as much would the Masters of these Courts be stirred at the casting of these saints daies out of the Calender , as were the masters of the possessed maid , whē the spirit of diuinatiō was cast out of her , Act. 16. 19. Socr. l. 5. c. 21. Est. 9. 17. Nehem. 12. 27. 1. Mac. 4 29. Ioh. 10 23. August . Ep. 44. Sc●as a Christianis Catholicis n●llum col● mortuorum , nihil demque vt numen adorari quod sit factum & conditum a Deo Quae toto orbe terrarum , &c. sicuti quoque Do●●ini passio & resurrectio & in caelum ascensus & aduentus spiritus sancti an niuersaria solemnitate celebrantur . Aug. Ep. 118. Churches of Fr. & Flanders in Harm . confes . Th. VVhites Discouer . p. 19. Notes for div A02522-e9120 Sep. Constrained and approued ignorance . If an ignorant and vnpreaching Ministery be approued amongst you , and the people constrained by all kinde of violence to submit vnto it , & therewith to rest ( as what is more vsuall throughout the whole Kingdome ) then let no modest man once open his mouth to deny that ignorance is constrained and approued amongst you . Confer . at Hampt . English seruice . Sep. Vnknowne deuotion . If the seruice said or sung in the parish Church may be called deuotion , then sure there is good store of vnknowne deuotion , the greatest part in most parishes , neither knowing nor regarding what is said , nor wherfore . Notes for div A02522-e9250 Sep. What are your sheete-penances for Adulterie , and all your purse-penances for all other sins ? then which though some worse in poperie , yet none more cōmon . Sacco & cineri incubare , corpus fordibus obscurare , presbyteris aduolui , & aris Dei adganiculari . tert . de p●●it . Can on . Greg. Neocaesar . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 &c. Notes for div A02522-e9360 Sep. Touching Purgatory , though you deny the Doctrine of it and teach the contrary , yet how wel your practise sutes with it , let it be considered in these particulars . Your absoluing of men dying excommunicate after they bee dead , and before they may haue Christian buriall . Aug. de Ciuitat . l. 1. Athenienses decreuerunt ne siquis Se intersecisset sepeliretur in agro Attico . &c. Sep. Your Christian Buriall in holy ground ( if the party will bee at the charges ; ) your ringing of hallowed bels for the soule : your singing the Corpes to the graue from the Church style ; your praying ouer or for the dead especially in these words , That God wold hasten his kingdome , that we with this our brother ( though his life were neuer so wretched and death desperate ) and all other departed in the true faith of thy holy name may haue our perfect consummation both in body and soule . Sleeping-places Caemiteria . Euseb. l. 7. c. 12. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Splendid ssimae sepulturae tradidit . Eus. l. 7. c. 15 Curatio funeris , conditio sepulturae , pompa exequiarum , magis sunt viuorum solatia quam subsidia mortuorum . Aug. de Ciuit l. 1. c. 12. Si enim paterna vestis & annulus anto char . est posteris , nullo modo ipsa spernenda sunt corpora . Aug de Ciuit. l. 1. c. 13. Orig. contr . Cels. l. 8. Rationolem animam honorare didicimus , &c. Sep. Your generall doctrines and your particular practises agree in this , as in the most other things , like Harpe and Harrow . In word you professe many truthes , which in deede you denie . These and many mo popish deuises ( by others at large discouered to the world ) both for pompe and profite , are not onely not rased and buried in the dust , but are aduanced amongst you , aboue all that is called God. Notes for div A02522-e9730 Sep. You are farre from doing to the Romish Idols , as was done to the Aegyptian Idols Mythra and Serapis , whole prie●●s were expelled their Ministery and Monuments exposed to vtter scorn and desolation , their Temples demolished and raced to the very foundation . Socrat. Hist. Eccles. l. 5. c. 16. 7. Bed. h●st . Eccl. l. 1. Cit. Gregor . Ep. Aug suoc . 30. & Edilbe●toregi c. 32. Contra sibi &c. Sed & H●r●ticorū templa vastata a Constantino . Euseb. l. 3. c. 63. Aug. de ciuit . l. 8 c. 27. Hocker 5. b. c. 13 Id Aug. contr . Max●min . Arian . Nonne sitemplum &c. Optat. Mileuit●n lib. 6. I. auistis proculdubi● pallas , Iudicate quid de codic● bus secistis : Aut vtr●mque lauate aut , &c. S● quod tangit aspectus lauandum est , vt parietes . &c. Videmus rectum , videmus & coelū &c. haec a vobis lauari non possunt . Athanas. Apol. Euseb. de vita Const. Otho Fri●ing . l. ● . c. 3. Notes for div A02522-e9970 Sep. But your temples especially your Cathedrall and mother Churches stand still in their proude Maiestie possessed by Arch Bishops , and Lordbishops like the Flamins and Archssamins amongst the Gentiles , from whom they were deriued Lumb . lib. 4. d●st . 24. Isid. l. 7. E●imol . cap 12 and furnished with all manner of pompous and superstitious monuments , as ●arued and paynted Images , massing Copes and surplices , chaunting and Organ-musicke , and many other glorious ornaments of the Romish Harlot , by which her Maiesty is commended to , and admired by the vulgar , so farr are you in these respects for being gon , or fl●d , yea or crept either , out of Babylon . Theuphilus Ep●s● . cum ●aeteras s●●tuas deorum confi●ngeret , v●am integram seruari i●●sst . eamque in loco publico e●exit vt Gentiles tempore progrediente non inficiarentur se ●umsm●di D●us col●sse . 〈◊〉 Grammat● us hac dere valded scruciatus Dixit grauem plagam religioni Gr●corum inct●●●m , quod illa vna statcia no● euerteretur . Socrat. l. 5. c. 16. Sep. Now if you be thus ▪ Babylonish where you repute your selues most Syonlike , and thus confounded in your owne euidence , what defence could you make in the things wherof an aduersary would challenge you : If your light be darkenesse , how great is your darknes ? Notes for div A02522-e10080 Sep. But for that not the separation but the cause makes the schismaticke ; and least you should seeme to speak euill of the thing you know not , and to condemne a cause vnheard , you lay downe in the next place the supposed cause of our separation , against which you deale as insufficiently . And that you pretend to bee , none other then your consorting with the Papist in certaine Ceremonies : touching which and our separation in regard of them thus you write . M. H. If you haue taken but the least knowledge of the grounds of our iudgement and practise , how dare you thus abuse both vs and the reader , as if the onely or chiefe groūd of our separatiō were your popish ceremonies ▪ but if you go only by guesse hauing neuer so much as read ouer one treatise published in our defēce , & yet stick not to passe this your censorious doom both vpon vs & it ; I leaue it to the reader to iudge whether you haue beene more lauish of your censure or credit . Most vniust is the censure of a cause vnknowne , though in it selfe neuer so blame-worthy , which neuerthelesse may be prais-worthy , for ought he knowes that censures it . Inq into M. VVhite . * VVhich vpon the Lords prayer hath confuted some positions of that sect . Bar. & . Grecu● , passim . Pen● . Exam. Notes for div A02522-e10200 Sep. And touching the ceremonies here spoken of , howsoeuer we haue formerly refused them , submitting ( as all others did and d●e ) to the Prelates spirituall Iurisdiction , ( herein through ignorance strayning at Gnats and swallowing Camels ) yet are we verily perswaded of them , and so were before we separated , that they are but as leaues of that tree , and as badges of that man of sinne , whereof the Pope is head , and the prelates shoulders . And so we for our parts see no reason why any of the Bishops sworne seruants ( as all the Ministers in the Church of England are Canonically ) should make nice to weare their Lords liueryes . Which ceremonies notwithstanding wee know wel enough , howsoeuer you for aduantage extenuate , and debase them vnto vs , to be aduanced , and preferred in your Church , before the preaching of the Gospell . 1. Cor. 4. 1. Hierom. in Ps. 44. Heming . Class . 3 Potest . Eccles. c. 10. Vtcuique suus clerus & sua plebs in his quae Domini sunt , piè obsequerentur . Ignat. Epi. ad Tarsens . Sep. It is much that they being not so much as Reede nor any part of the building ( as you pretend ) should ouerturne the best builders amongst you as they doe . Sep. The proportion betwixt Zoar & them holdes well : Zoar was a neighbour vnto Sodome both in place and sinne , and obnoxious to the same destruction with it : and it was ●ots errour to desire to haue it spared , Gen. 19. 15 , 18 , 19 , 20 and so he neuer found rest nor peace in it , but forsooke it for feare of the same iust iudgement , which had ouertaken the rest of the Cities , vers . 30. The application of this to your ceremonies I leaue to your selfe , and them to that destruction , to which they are deuoted by the Lord. Fidem Domino habere debuerat quise cam seruaturum propter cumdixerat . Mercer . in Genes . Notes for div A02522-e10490 Sep. How we wold haue behaued our selues in the Temple , where the mony-changers were , and they that solde Doues , we shal answere you , when you proue your Church to be the Temple of God , compiled and built of spiritually-hewen and liuely stones 1. Kin. 5. 17. 18 & 6. 7. 1. pet : 2. 5. and of the Cedars , Firs , and Thyne trees of Lebanon . 2. Chr. 2. 8. framed and set together in that comely order which a greater then Salomon hath prescri●ed : vnto which God hath promised his presence . But whilst we take it to be ( as it is ) a confused heape of dead and defiled , and polluted stones , and of all rubbish , of Bryers and brambles of the wildernesse , for the most part , fitter for burning then building , we take our selues rather bound to shew our obedience in departing from it , then our valour in purging it , and to follow the prophets councel in flying out of Babylon , as the hee goats before the flock , Ie● . 50. 8 Notes for div A02522-e10600 Sep. And what I pray you is the valour which the best hearted and most zealous Reformers amongst you , haue manifested in driuing out the Mony-changers ? doth it not appeare in this , that they suffer ▪ themselues to be driuen out with the two stringed Whippe of . Ceremonies , and subscription , by the Mony-changers , the Chancellers and Officials , which sell. sinnes like Doues ; and by the chiefe priests the Bishoppes which set them on worke ? so farre are the most zealous amongst you from driuing out the Mony-changers , as they themselues are driuen out by them , because they will not change with them to the vtmost farthing . Bar. Refor , without Tar. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . VVee charge him not to serue any more . So Can. 15. Can. 25. Cum compertū fuerit deponatur . Can. 10. De Clericatus honore periclitabitur . Can. 2. E clero deponatur & sit alienus a Canone . Can. 17. et Can. 18. A ministerio cessare debuerit Concil . Sardic . c. 4. Cōcil . Carth. 4. c. 48. & 56. 57. Leo. Ep. 1. Sect. 5. Cypr. l. 3. Ep. 9. S●cr . l. 2. c. 21. Notes for div A02522-e10810 Bar ▪ ag . Gyff p. 27. & 88. Sep. For the Wafers in Geneua , and disorders in Corinth , they were corruptions which may and doe ( or the like vnto them ) creep into the purest Churches in the world : for the reformation wherof Christ hath giuen his power vnto his Church , that such euils as are brought in by humane frailty , may by diuine authority bee purged out . This power and presence of Christ you want , holding all by homage ( or rather by vilenage ) vnder the Prelates , vnto whose sinfull yoake you stoup in more then Babylonish bondage , bearing and approuing by personall communion , infinite abhominations . Troubl . & Excom . at Amsterd . An tu solus Ecclesia es ? Et qui te offenderit a Christo excluditur . Hieron . Eriphan . Cypr. Solus in caelum ascend . Pupianus ? Et ad Acesium Nouatianum Constant. Erigito tibi scalam Acesi , & ad caelum solus ascendito . Socr. l. 1. C. 7. Bar. Gyff . ref . So some of their owne haue termed their excommunication . Confess . by M. Iohns . Inqu . p. 65 Col. 1. 18. Sep. And in these two last respects principally , your Babylonish confusion of all sorts of people in the body of your Church , without separation , and your Babylonish bondage vnder your spirituall Lords the Prelates , we account you Babylon , and flie from you . Amari Parens & Episcopus debet , non timeri . Hier. ad Theophilum . Notes for div A02522-e11000 Sep. M. H hauing formerly expostulated with vs our supposed impietie in forsaking a ceremonious Babylon in England , proceeds in the next place to lay downe our madnesse in chusing a substantiall Babylon in Amsterdam : and if it be so found by due trial , as he suggesteth , it is hard to say , whether our impiety or madnes be the greater . Sep. Belike M. H. thinkes we gather churches here by towne-rowes , as they doe in England , and that all within the parish procession are of the same Church . Wherefore else tels hee vs of Iewes , Arrians , and Anabaptists , with whom we haue nothing common but the streetes and market-place ? It i● the condition of the Church to liue in the world , and to haue ciuill society with the men of this world , 1. Cor. 5. 10. Ioh. 17. 13. But what is this to that spirituall communion of the saints , in the fellowshippe of the Gospell , wherin they are separated , and sanctified from the world vnto the Lord ? Ioh ▪ 17. 16. 1. Cor. 1. 2. Cor. 6. 17. 18. Separation from the world , how required . Ioh. 17. 16. 1. Cor. 1. 2. 1. Cor. 3. 3. Notes for div A02522-e11170 Sep. We indeed haue much wickednes in the Citie where we liue ; you in the Church . ●ut in earnest , doe you imagine we account the Kingdome of England Babylon , or the citie of Amsterdam Syon ▪ It is the Church of England , or state Ecclesiasticall , which we account Babylon , and from which we withdraw in spirituall communion : ●ut for the common-wealth and Kingdome , as we honor it aboue all the states in the world , so wold we thankfully embrace the meanest corner in it , at the extreamest conditions of any people in the Kingdome ▪ Cassand . de Offic boni viri . Bellar. de Laicis Euseb. in vita Const. Fr. Iohns . Articles ag . the Fr● and Dutch Churches . Bar. ag . Gyss . Counrtepoys . Sep. The hellish impieties in the citie of Amsterdam doe no more preiudice our heauenly communion in the Church of Christ , then the frogs , lyce , flyes , moraine , and other plagues ouerspreading Egypt , did the Israelites when Goshen the portion of their inheritance was free Exod 8. 19. nor then the deluge , wherewith the whole world was couered did Noah , when he and his family were safe in the Arke , Gen. 7. nor then sathans throne did the Church of Pergamus being established in the same citie with it , Re● . 2. 12 , 13. Notes for div A02522-e11520 Sep. It is 〈◊〉 will of God and of Christ , that his Church should abide in the world , and conuerse with it in the affaires therof which are common to both : But it is the Apostasie of Antichrist to haue communion with the vvorld in the holy things of God , which are the peculiars of the Church , and cannot without great sacriledge be so prostituted and prophaned . Duobus mod● non te ma●ulat malus , vid●licet si non consentis & si redarg●is d. 23. q. 4. a malis . Notes for div A02522-e11590 Sep. The ayre of the Gospell which you draw in is nothing so free and cleare as you make shevv : it is only because you are vsed to it , that makes you so iudge . 1. Canons . Sep. The thicke smoake of your Canons , especially of such as are planted against the Kingdome of Christ the visible Church , and the administration of it , do both obscure and poyson the ayre , which you all draw in , and wherein you breath . 2. Sinne vncensured . Sep. The plaguy-spirituall-leprosie of sinne rising vp in the foreheads of so many thousands in the Church , vnshut vp , vncouered , infects all both persons and things amongst you . Leu. 13. 45. 46. 47. 2. cor . 6 , 17. Certe nullius crimen maculat nescientem . Aug. Ep. 48. 1. Reg. 19. 18. 3. Heirarchy . Sep. The blasting Hierarchie suffers no good thing to grow , or prosper , but withers all both budde and branch . 4. Seruice-booke . Sep. The daily sacrifice of the seruice-booke which in stead of spirituall prayer sweete as incense , you offer vp morning and euening , smels so strong of the Popes Portuise , as it makes many hundreds amongst your selues stop their noses at it ; and yet you boast of the free and clear ayre of the Gospell wherin you breath . Patres nostri non solum ante Cyprianum vel Agrippinum , sed postea , saluberrimam consuetudinem tenuerunt , vt quicquid diuinum atque legitimum in aliqua haeresi vel schismate integrum reperirent approbarent potius quam negarent . August . Notes for div A02522-e11880 Sep. That all Christendome should so magnifie your happinesse ( as you say ) is much , and yet your selues , and the best amongst you , complain so much both in word , and writing , of your miserable condition , vnder the imperious and superstitious impositions of the Prelates , yea and suffer so much also vnder them , as at this day you do for seeking the same Church-gouernment and Ministery , which is in vse in all other Churches saue your owne . Socrat. l. 1. c. 4. Constant. Alex. & Ario. Ac tamet si vos inter vos vic●ssim de re qu●piam minimi momenti dissent●tis ( siquidem neque omnes de omnibus rebus idem sentimus nihilom●nus tan● fi●ri p●terit , vt eximia concordia sincerè inter vos , integr●que s●ru●tur , & vna inter omnes communio & consociatio custodiatur . Sep. The truth is , you are best liked where you are worst knowen . Your next neighbours of Scotland know your Bishops Gouernment so well , as they rather chuse to vndergoe all the miserie , of bonds and banishment , then to partake with you in your happinesse this way , so highly doe they magnifie and applaud the same Which choice I doubt not other Churches also would make , if the same necessitie were laid vpon them . Sep. And for your graces , we despise them not nor any good thing amongst you , no more then you doe such graces and good things as are to be found in the Church of Rome , from which you separate notwithstanding . We haue by Gods mercie the pure and right vse of the good gifts and graces of God in Christs Ordinance which you want . Neither the Lords people , nor the holy vessels could make Babylon Syon , though both the one and the other were captiued for a time . Lastly , it is thus written , and we thus aduised . M. Smiths . retort vpon M. Cliston . p. 50 , . Notes for div A02522-e12010 Sep. Where the truth is a gayner , the Lord ( which is truth ) cannot be a looser . Neither is the thankes of ancient fauours lost amongst them , which still presse on towards new mercies . Vnthankfull are they vnto the blessed maiestie of God , and vnfaithfull also , which Inter licet vestrum & non licet nostrum , nutant ac remigant animae Christianorum . Optat contr . Parm. Sep. knowing the will of their Master do it not , but go on p●esumptuously in disobedience to many the holy ordinances of the Lord , and of his Christ , which they know , and in word also acknowledge , he hath giuen to his Church to be obserued , and not for idle speculation , and disputation without obedience . It is not by our sequestration , but by your confusion , that Rome and Hell gaines . Sep. Your odious commixture of all sorts of people in the body of your Church , in whose lappe the vilest miscreants are dandled , sucking her brests , as her naturall children , and are be-blest by her ( as hauing right thereunto ) with all her holy things as prayer , sacraments , and other ceremonies , is that which aduantageth hell , in the finall obduration and perdition of the wicked , whom by these meanes you flatter and deceiue . Non enim propter malos boni des●rendi , sed propter bonos mali tolerandi sunt , &c. Sicut tolerau●runt Prophetae &c. Aug. Ep. 48. Bar. ag . Gyff . Sep. The Romish Prelacie and Priesthood amongst you , with the appurtenances for their maintenance and ministrations are Romes aduantage . Which therefore she challengeth as her owne , and by which shee also still holdes possession amongst you , vnder the hope of regayning her full inheritance at one time or other . Sep. And if the Papists take aduantange at our condemnation of you , and separation from you : it concerns you , well to see where the blame is , and there to lay it , least through light , and inconsiderate iudgement , you iustifie the wicked , and condemne the righteous . Notes for div A02522-e12270 Sep. And for the suspition of the rude multitude , you need not much feare it . They will suspect nothing that comes vnder the Kings broad seale : they are ignorant of this fault . Though it were the masse that came with authoritie of the magistrate , they ( for the most part ) would be without suspition of it : so ignorant and prophane are they in the most places . 1 Sam. 10. 10. It is the wise hearted amongst you that suspect your dealings , who will also suspect you yet more , as your vnfound dealing shall be further discouered . Notes for div A02522-e12360 Troub . & excom at Amster . G. Iohns . professes he found better dealing in the B●shops Consistories ; and might haue found better in the Inquisition . Hieron . Cypr. de simplic . praelat . Ad pacis praemium ven●re non polerunt , qui pacem domini discordiae furore ruperunt . Ibid. Inexpiabilis & g●auis culpa discordiae nec passione purgatur . Sep Lastly the terr●ble threat you vtter against vs , that euen whoredomes and murders shall abide an easier answere then separation , would certainly fall heauy vpon vs , if this answere were to bee made in your Consistory Courts ; or before any of your Ecclesiasticall iudges ; but because we know , that not Antichrist , but Christ shal be our iudge , we are hold vpon the warrant of his word and testament , ( which being sealed with his blood may not bee altered ) to proclaim to all the world separation frō whatsoeuer riseth vp rebelliously , against the scepter of his kingdome , as we are vndoubtedly perswaded , the Communion , gouernment , ministery , and worship of the Church of England doe . Iohn Robinson . 
A20920	----	Certayne letters, translated into English, being first written in Latine. Two, by the reverend and learned Mr. Francis Iunius, divinitie reader at Leyden in Holland. The other, by the exiled English Church, abiding for the present at Amsterdam in Holland. Together with the confession of faith prefixed: where vpon the said letters were first written Junius, Franciscus, 1545-1602. 1602 Approx. 192 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 30 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2006-06 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A20920 STC 7298 ESTC S105409 99841137 99841137 5697 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A20920) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 5697) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1475-1640 ; 1234:28, 1525:05) Certayne letters, translated into English, being first written in Latine. Two, by the reverend and learned Mr. Francis Iunius, divinitie reader at Leyden in Holland. The other, by the exiled English Church, abiding for the present at Amsterdam in Holland. Together with the confession of faith prefixed: where vpon the said letters were first written Junius, Franciscus, 1545-1602. R. G., fl. 1602. Junius, Franciscus, 1545-1602. Christian letter. Johnson, Francis, 1562-1618. Ainsworth, Henry, 1571-1622? [2], 57, [1] p. Printed, [Amsterdam] : in the yeare. 1602. Preface signed by the translator of the Junius letters: R.G. A reprint of "A Christian letter", 1602, with additions and answers answers. The replies are signed by Francis Johnson and others. Prior publication in Latin not traced. The confession of faith is attributed to Henry Ainsworth. Place of publication from STC. P. 5-30 identified as STC 18434 on UMI microfilm reel 1525. Reproductions of the originals in the Henry E. Huntington Library and Art Gallery and the Bodleian Library. Appears at reel 1234 (Henry E. Huntington Library and Art Gallery copy) and at reel 1525 (Bodleian Library copy). Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Brownists -- Controversial literature. 2005-05 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2006-01 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2006-03 Judith Siefring Sampled and proofread 2006-03 Judith Siefring Text and markup reviewed and edited 2006-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion Certayne Letters / translated into English / being first written in Latine . Two , by the reverend and learned Mr. Francis Iunius , Divinitie Reader at Leyden in Holland . The other , by the exiled English Church , abiding for the present at Amsterdam in Holland . Together with the Confession of faith prefixed : where vpon the said letters were first written . Esa . 53.1 . Who beleveth our report , and to whom is the arme of the Lord revealed ? Printed in the yeare . 1602. R.G. the translatour of M. Iunius his letters : To the Christian Reader . SVch as of late yeares have rent themselues from the holie service of God , used im the publique congregations and Churches of England , being destitute of any sound warrant from the worde of God , have sought from time to time so much the more earnestly ( as the manner of such is ) to shroude themselves vnder the shadowe of humane authoritie . Hēce it came to passe that Master Francis Iunius , a mā of great learning , and godlinesse , was solicited by some of them ( as may appeare by these letters ensuing ) in the yeare 99. to be a favourer of their erronious opinions and of their vnchristian disordered and vndutifull proceedings : whose answere , being delivered by himselfe to a religious and worshipful knight , and so comming to my handes , I have presumed to communicate with thee , by the motion of some godly and well disposed , hoping that through the blessing of God , and thy prayers it may proove a good meanes to stay such as are wavering , to confirme such as doe stand , and to recover such as are fallen . For although he doe not enter into an exact discussing of the question with arguments , objections , and answeres : yet he vseth a very grave and godly admonition , which is oftentimes of greater fruite , then a long and learned disputation . And whosoever doth diligently studie the booke of God , shal finde , that the holy Prophets & Apostles do in manie places insist upō a plaine & simple asleve●ation of the truth rather then vpon multitude of proof & arguments . Besides , if we observe the story of the holy Martyrs of our own Church & others , we may preceive that by the sound profession of their faith , and suffering for the same , they have glorified God and advanced the kingdome of Iesus Christ aswel as others have done by arguments and reasons . And yet notwithstanding if thou do well obserue these letters of Master Iunius , thou shalt finde in them not vaine and emptie wordes : but waightie and sounde reasons grounded upon the holie Scriptures of God. Thus praying thee to take these first fruites of my poore laboures in this kinde in good part , and beseching god to give a blessing hereunto ; I bid thee heartily farewel in the Lord. Thyne in the Lord , R.G. The Answer to R.G. his Epistle prefixed before Mr. Iunius letters . SUch as have separated themselves / from the corrupt service of God / vsed in the publick congregations and parishes of England being persecuted with af●lictions reproches and slanders both at home and in the land whe● now they live exiles : have ben constreyned to publish to the world / the confession of their Christian faith / and causes of their departure from the foresayd English synagogues for clearing of the truth of God and witnesses of the same / both which were much and many wayes calumniated . More specially they dedicated that litle book to al Christian vniversities neer about to be discussed / approved or reproved by the godly learned in them And sending one in particular to the hands of M.H. Iunius , a man of great learning and godlines / dwelling neer vnto them to be by him and the rest of his brethrē of the vniversitie at Leyden judged of they received from him a letter lately by one R.G. trāslated and printed in English whether with the authors consent or not is yet vnknowne : but the copy ( as the publisher sayth ) was given out by the author himself / who might had done wel to have given a copy of the answer likewise ▪ or if he did / the translator hath not dealt indifferently to publish one and not an other . How ever it were / al men may see how just and necessary occasion those eriled Christians now have / to print their answer also which vpō the receipt of his Letter they sent vnto him / but hitherto have spared to give out any one copy either of his or theirs : whether for doubt of their owne cause or reverend regard rather of that mā / let the sequel declare / and let the discrete reader by it judge / whether party hath most advantage . As for the translators censure that they sought to shrowd themselves vnder the shadow of humane authoritie . this brief narratiō of the cariage of the matter / and the plaine apologie which they make vnto Mr. Iunius of their proceedings / wil shew it ( vnto al godly wyse ) to be but the surmise of a malicious hart . And were it not that the weaknes and badnes of their cause compelleth them thus to doe it might seem strange that any of the church of England would publish such a writing as this in their owne defence / as if it approved their estate / and condēned those foresayd Christian exiles : when any whose eyes ar in his head / may see by Mr Iunius his writing vnto them / as Christian brethren / and refusing at al to vndertake the maintenance of those English parishes or conviction of such as separate from them how far it is frō justifying those synagogues estate . Yea al wiseharted may and will we doubt not easily discerne how naked and helplesse they be which neither by their friends at home / nor the most learned abroad can otherwise be ●elieved then by such things as hitherto they have printed Or howsoever this present generation shall judge of these things / yet the ages to come / ( which wil be lesse partial ) wil easily give sentence . The better to certify thee ▪ good reader of the whole cause / and cariage therof / here is with these Lecters set forth also their Confession of faith / with the Epis●le and preface as it is in Latine . And wheras ther is since that time published also a second epistle of Mr. Iunius ther is now the answer to it set forth likewise : which answer was presently written vpon the receipt of his Letter / but not then sent for causes partly before noted and now more fully signified and sent to Mr. Iunius himself . The things which here are mentioned of corruptions in some other churches and dealings that have passed about thē ar yet spared from being published in print at large til further occasion and provocation be . Onely the general and brief h●●ds of the matter in controversie / at now printed ( as they were sent vnto Mr. Iunius / although we were loth to do it but that their was necessarie occasion given by things which passed in the Letters / as al mē may see . Moreover it is not to be omitted / how in the printed copy of Mr. Iunius Letter / * some things were corrupted / by alteration omission / and c. Otherwise then in the original by himself first sent / they do stand and ar yet to be seen . This it is not likely Mr. Iunius himself would doe but was ( perhaps ) the printers fault / or rather indeed the translators evil mind for his mother churches advantage / whō falshood seeketh to vphold / when syncerity and truth hath forsaken her . It shal therfore rest vpon him / as the first fruits of his evil labours in this kind , til he clear himself . The Apostles and Prophets / and Martyrs by him mentioned / dealt not so . Neither yet did they alwayes insist vpon a plaine and simple asseveration of the truth , but mainteyned it also with proofes and arguments from scripture / and sound reason / against such as oppugned the same . Act. 17.2.3 . and 18.28 . and 28.23 . Rom , 1.17 . and 3.4.10 . and 4.3.7.17 . and 9.7.9.12.13.17.20.25.27.29.33 . and 10.5.11.15.19.21 . and 11.2.9.26 . 1 Cor. 15.3.4.25.27.45.54.55 . Gal. 3.6 8.10.11.13.22 . and 4.21.22.27.30 . Esa . 40.12 . and 41.21.22.23.24 . and 44.6 . and c. Mal. 4.4 . Acts & monuments in the historie of Mr. Brute , Thorp , Lambert , Ridly , Philpot , Bradford , and many others . And though the Apostles and Prophets had / yet no mās asseveratiō now / may be compared with theirs / but must be tried by their writings . And so these Christian exiles / published to that end their faith vnto the world / against which to this day / neither Mr. Iunius nor any els of that or the other vniversities / have to our knowledge vsed any one weighty and sound reason grounded vpon the holy scripture of God , as this translator would bear men in hand he doth / and as the Prophets did in al their asseverations / taking their ground from the law before given . Mat. 22.40 . The Lord rebuke Satan / and make bright the glorie of his name and Gospel / and turne to the profit of every faithful soule / these things now published by his vnworthy and contemned servants / to his owne eternal prayse in Christ . Amen . To the Reader . By the Printers default there are ( good Reader ) a few faults escaped in the printing some whereof are here noted . Which with the rest thou observest thy self / we pray thee amend / thus . Pag. 11. lin . 13. then to make . Pag. 12. l. 8. all that . Pag. 15. l. 20.21.22.32.33.34 . blot out these marcks : * ‡ ( ( * " ‡ . Pag. 16. l. 1. also * of old . And lin . 7. Iob. 1.6 . Pag. 17. l. 3. vnwritten . And blot out / of men . Pag. 18. l. 13. Act. 3.22 . Pag. 24. l. 34. Eph. 4.11 . Pag. 25. l. 20. ●iev . 2.1 . 1. King. 12. Pag. 27. l. 28. Gal. 3.28.29 Pag. 29. l. 1. no whit . L. 18.1 . Tim. 2.2 . L. 49. Exod. 18.12 . and 10 . 1● . Pag. 39. l. 7. Churches of this city / that etc. and then be delivered . L. 27. contend . Pag. 40. l. 26. publish . Pag. 41. l. 1. their private Confessions of faith their apol . L. 7.8 . prevaile . Pag. 42. l. 22. let vs. Pag. 45. l. 13. ingenuously . Pag. 47. in the margent . l. 10. licet vobis . And l. 13. discindere . P. 48. l. 10 / cōsent . P. 50. li. 9. evē to strive earnestly . P. 51. l. 32. taunting . Pag. 53. l. 3. yea so . L. 13. many weak ones / before so many deadly . Pa. 54. l. 1. Amst . is such / as being but one / yet it meeteth in three severall places : wherevpon it is so confus . etc. And li. 32. Gal. 4.10.11 . Note besides / where Mr. Iunius in his second letter ( Pag. 47. ) pretendeth / as if there had ben some fault in the Messenger or vs that he knew not to whom or whither he should have written his first : that in the book it self which was delivered vnto him there was particular mention both of the place and of the partyes from whō it came : as may be seen in the Epistle prefired before it / which is of the dedication to the vniversityes . And els how knew he at the moneths end more then before / to whom and whither to send as he did ? Which poynt is so very playne / as to himself we thought there needed not then so much as any mention of it . Yet thought we here to note it / least some others not observing so much / might thinck the fault wherof he speaketh to ly on vs or the messēger / which ( what soever it were ) is still to rest vpon himself / for ought we know . The Confession of fayth of certayne English people / living in exile / in the Low countreyes . Together vvith the Preface to the Reader Which we wish of all may be read and considered . 2. Cor. 4 / 13. We beleev : therefore have we spoken . Harmony of Confess . in the preface set before it , in the Name of the French and Belgick Churches . The Prelates and Priests do alvvay cry out , that vve are Hereticks , Schismaticks , and Sectaryes . Hovvbeit let thē knovv , that the crime of Heresy is not to be imputed to thē , vvhose faith doth vvholy rely vpon most sure grounds of the Scripture : That they are not Schismaticks , vvho entierly cleave to the true Church of God , such as the Prophets and Apostles do describe vnto vs : Nor they to be counted Sectaryes , vvho embrace the truth of God vvhich is one and alvvayes like it self . To the reverend and learned men , the Students of holy Scripture , in the Christian Vniversities of Leyden in Holland , of Sanctandrewes in Scotland ▪ of Heidelbergh , Geneva , and the other like famous scholes of learning in the Low countreyes , Scotland , Germany , and France . The English exiles in the Low countreys , wish grace and peace in Iesus Christ . THis true confession of our faith , in our judgment wholy agreable to the sacred Scripture , we do here exhibit vnto all to be discussed : and vnto you ( reverend Sirs ) we dedicate it for two causes . First , for that we know you are able in respect of your singular knowledge in the Scriptures , and hope you are willing in respect of your syncere piety , to convince our errours by the light of Gods word , if in any thing we be out of the way . Secondly , that this testimony of Christian faith , if you also fynd it agree with the word of truth , may by you be approved , eyther in silence or by writing , as you shall think best . It may be , we shal be thought very bold , that being despised of all , yet doubted not to sollicite you so many and so great learned men . But this we did , partly at the request of others to whom we would not deny it : partly with desier to have the truth through your help better defended and further spread abroad : partly cōstreyned by our exile and other calamityes almost infinite : partly also moved with love of our native coūtrey , and of these wherein now we live , and others else where : wishing that all may walk with a right foot to the truth of the Gospell , and praying daily vnto God , that the great work of restoring Religion and the Church decayed , which he hath happily begun in these latter tymes , by our Gracious Soveraigne and the other Princes of these countreyes and ages ( his servants ) he would fully accomplish , to the glory of his name and eternall salvation in Christ of his elect in all places of the earth . As for the causes which moved vs to publish this Confession of faith , and to forsake the Church of England as now it stādeth , we have truly and as briefly as we could related them in the Preface to the Reader , hereafter following : and therefore thought here to omit the repetition of them . The Lord Iesus alway preserve you and your Vniversityes to the praise of his name , the ornamēt of good learning , the propagation and maintenance of his pure Religion . From Amsterdam in the low countreyes . The yeare of the last patience of the saints , 1598. The preface to the Christian Reader . IT may seeme strange vnto thee ( Christian Reader ) that any off the Englysh nation should for the truth of the Gospell be forced to forsake their natyve contrye / and lyve in exile / especially in these dayes / when the Gospell seemeth to have free passage / and florish in that land . And for this cause have our exile bene hardly thought of by many / and evil spoken of by some who know not ( as it seemeth ) eyther the trewe estate of the Church of England or causes of our forsaking and separating from the same / but hearing this sect ( as they call it ) to be every where spoken against have ( with out at all further search ) accounted and divulged vs as heretickes / or Schismatickes at the least . Yea some ( and such as worst might ) have sought the increase of our afflictions / even here also yf they could , which thinge they have / both secretly and openly attempted . This hath Sathan added vnto all our former sorrowes / envying that we should have rest in any part of the b inhabyted world / and therfor ceaseth not to make warre with the remnant of the womans seed / which keepe the commaundemēts of God and have the testimony of Iesus Christ . But the Lord that c brought his former Israell out off Egypt / and when they walked aboute from nation to natiō / from one Kingdome to an other people / suffered no man to do them wronge / but reproved kinges for their sakes : the same Lord yet lyveth to maynteyne the right off his afflicted servantes / whome he hath severed / and dayly gathereth out off the world / to d be vnto himselff a chosen generatiō / a royall priesthood a peculiar people and Israell off God : He e is our hope and strength and helpe in trobles ready to be found / he will hyde vs vnder his winges / and vnder his feathers we shall be sure vntyll these myseries be over past . And though we could for our partes well have borne this rebuke off Christ in silence / and left our cause to him who iudgeth iustly all the children off men : yet for the manyfestation and clearing of the truth off God from reproche off men / and for the bringing off others togither with our selves to the same knouwledge and fellowship off the Gospell / we have thought it needfull and our duty to make knowen vnto the world / our vnfeyghned fayth in God / and loyall obedience towardes our Prince / and all Governours set over vs in the Lord / together with the reasons off our leaving the ministery worship and Church off England . Which are not ( as they pretend ) for some fewe faultes and corruptions remayning / such as we acknowledge man be found in the perfectest Church on earth : Neyther count we it lawfull for any member to forsake the fellowship off the Church for blemyshes and imperfections / which every one according to his calling should studeously seeke to cure / and to exspect and further it vntyll eyther there followe redresse or the disease be growen incureable / and the f candlestick be moved out off the place . But we having through Gods mercy learned to discerne betwixt gap the true worship off God / and the Antichristian leitourgie / the true ministerie off Christ and Antichristian priesthood and prelacy / the ordinances off Christes testament and popysh cannons : have also learned to leave h the evill and choose the good to forsake Babell the land off our captyvitie / and get vs vnto Sion the mount of the Lordes holynes / and place where his honour dwelleth . But first we desyre thee / good Reader to vnderstand / and mynde that we have not in any dislyke of the civill estate and politicke goverment in that common wealth / which we much lyke and love seperated our selves from that Churche : Neyther have we shaken of our alleageance and dutyfull obedyence to our Soveraigne Prince Elezabeth her honorable Consellers and other Magistrates set over vs but have alwayes and still do reverence love and obey them every one in the Lord / opposing our selves against al enemyes forreigne or domesticall : against all invasions / insurrections / treasons or conspiracies by whome soever intended against her Majestie and the State / and are ready to advēture our lyves in their defence / iff need require . Neiter have our greatest adversaryes ever bene able to attaint vs of the least disloyalty in this regarde . And though now we be exiled / yet do we dayly pray and will for the preservation peace and prosperity off her Majestie and all her domynions And wheras we have bene accused off intrusion into the Magistrates office / as goeing about our selves to reforme the abuses in that land / it is a mere malicious calumnie / which our adversaries have forged out of their owne hart . We have alwayes both by word and practise shewed the contrary / neyther ever attempted or purposed any such thinge : but have indevored thus onely to reforme our selves and our lyves according to the rule off Gods word / by absteyning from all evyll and keeping the commandements off Iesus : leaving the suppressing and casting out off those remnants of Idolatry / vnto the Magistrates / to whome it belongeth . And further we testifye by these presents vnto all men / and desyre them to take knowledge herof that we have not forsaken any one poynt of the true ancient catholicke and apostolicke fayth professed in our land : but hold the same groundes of Christian religion with them still / agreeing lykewise herein / with the Dutch / Scottysh / Germane / French / Heldetian / and all other Christian reformed Churches round about vs / whose confessions publyshed / we call to witnes our agrement with them in matters of greatest moment / being cōferred with these articles of our fayth following . The thinges then onely against which we contend / and which we mislyke in the Englysh parish assemblyes / are many reliques of that man off Synne ( whome they pretend to have abandoned ) yet reteyned among them / and with a high hand maynteyned / vpholden / and imposed . The partici●ers wherof being almost infinite ) cannot well off vs besett downe / and would be tedious and yrksome to thee ( good Reader : ) But the principall heades we wil truely relate / and that so briefely as in so large and confuse a subject we can . First in the planting and constituting of their Churche ( at the begining of our Queene Elizabets reigne ) they receved at once into the body of that Churche / as members / the whole land / which generally then stood for the most part professed Papistes who had revolted from the profession / which they made in the dayes of king Edward off happy memorye / and shed much blood off many Christian Martyrs in Queene Maryes dayes . This people yet standinge in this fearfull sinfull state / in idolatry / blyndnes superstitiō and all manner wickednes / without any professed repentance / and without the meanes theroff / namely the preaching off the word goeing before / were by force and aucthority of lawe onely compelled / and together receved into the bosome / and body of the Churche / their seed baptised themselves receved and compelled to the Lords supper / had this ministery and servyce ( which now then use ) inioyned and set over them / and eversynce they and their seed remayne in this estate / being all but one body comonly called the Church of England ▪ Here are none exempted or excluded / be they never soo prophane or wretched no athiest / adulterer / thiefe / or murderer / no lyer / periured / witche or coniurer and c. all are one fellowship one body / one Churche . Now let the law off God be looked into / and there wil be found / that such persones i are not fit stones for the lordes spiritual howse / no meete members for Christes glorious body . k None of yeres may be receved into the Churche without free professed fayth repētance and submission vnto the Gospell of Christ and his heavenly ordynances : Neyther may any contynew l there longer then they bring forth the fruytes off fayth walking as becometh the Gospell of Christ . Christ m Iesus hath called and severed his servants out of and from the world . How then should this confused and mixed people be esteemed the orderly gathered true planted and right constituted Church of God. Secondly as they have reteyned the whole rout of the popysh multitude without any distinction / for members of their Churche : so have they set over them ( as reason was ) the same popysh Clergie and Prelacy / which they receved from the Romysh Apostasie and this day is to be found in the popysh Churches : to wit● / Archbs , Primats , Bbs , Metropolitanes , Suffraganes , Archdeacōs , Deanes , Chauncellors , Commissaries , and the rest of that rable / which rule and governe these assemblyes according to the popysh cannons / rites / and customes . These have the power and aucthoritie in their hādes to set forth iniunctions / to make and depose ministers ▪ to excomunicate both priest and people which they do very exquisitly if they yeld not vnto them their due homage and obedience . These have both Ecclesiasticall and civill aucthoritie / to reigne as Princes in the Churche and lyve as Lordes in the common wealth / to punysh imprison / and persecute evē to death all that dare but once mutter against their vnlaufull proceedinges . Of these prelates tyranny cruelty and vnlawfull aurthoritie the better sort both of preachers and people have cryed out / and longe tyme sued vnto the Prince and parliamēt to have them removed out of the Churche / as being the lymmes of Antichrist . But not prevayling they are now content ( for avoyding of the crosse of Christ / to submitt them selves and their soules to this Antichristian Hierarchie / and beare the sinfull yoke and burthen of their traditions / and to receve and carry aboute the dreadfull and detestable marke of the beast vpon them . Thirdly / The inferiour ministery of that Churche / consisteth of Priests / Parsons / Vicars / Curats / hired preachers / or Lecturers , with Clarkes , Sextons , &c. all which have receved their offices callings and aucthoritie from their ●orenamed Lordes the Prelats , to whome they have sworne their canonicall obedience / and promysed to performe it with all reverence and submyssion . Their office is to read over the servyce booke and Bps. Decrees , thereby to worship God / to marry / to bury / to church women / to visit the sicke / give him the Sacrament / and forgyve him all his sinnes : and if their lyvinges or benefices ( as they are called ) amount to a certeyne summe of money in the Queenes booke / then must they preach / or get some other to preach for them fower sermons in a yere in their parish / where also must be noted that the most part of these Priestes are utterlye vnlearned / and cannot preache at all : wherby it cometh to passe that most of the people are as blynde as they were in the darke dayes of popery . These ministers generally / aswel preachers as other / lyve in feare and servitude vnder their foresaid Lords the Bbs. for as without their lycence wrytten and sealed they cannot preach / so vpon their displeasure and for not obeying their injunctions / they are many tymes suspēded degraded / and if they will not be ruled / put in prison : so that sundry of them have bene suspended and imprisoned for preaching against the Prelats , not subscribing to their devised articles and booke of comon prayer not wearing the square capp and surplus / not reading the service booke / and be tyed to the same / not coming to the Bishops courtes / visitations / inquisitions / and c. tyll now of late being wearyed with these trobles / they give place to their tyranny / and are content to conforme themselves / and yelde their canonicall obedience according to their oathe / keeping now silence / yea going back / bearing and bolstering the thinges / which heretofore by word and wryting they stoode against so longe as there was any hope that the Queene and Counsell would have harkened vnto them / and put these adversary Prelats out of the Churche . Fourthly / for the administration / which is by lawe imposed vpon all both Clergie and Laitie , ( for so they distinguish them ) they have gathered their service booke verbatim out of the masse boo●● / turning out of latine into englysh the Suffragies , Prayers , Letany , Collects , &c. ( leaving on● some of the grosse pointes therin ) keeping still the old fashyon of Psalmes Chapters Pistles / Gospells / versicles respondes / also Te Deum , Be●edictus , Magnificat , Nunc dimittis , Our Father , Lord have mercy vpon vs , The Lord be with you , O Lord open t●ow my lyps , Glory to God on high , Lyft vp your harts , O come let vs rejoyce , Glory be to the Father , Quicunque vult , &c. These doe they read dayly morning and evening all the yere longe in their priestly vestures / Surplus / cope / and c. some they saye / and some they singe having in their Cathedrall Churches / the Organs , Queristers , singing men and boyes as in tymes past in popery . Many popysh errors yet remayne in that booke which their owne preachers have noted / and found fault with ▪ There are they prescribed what prayers to read over the dead / over the corne and grasse / some tyme in the yere . By it are they inioyned to keepe their holy dayes to their Lady ( as they call her ) to all Saincts and Angells / to all Christes Apostells / ( except Paul and Barnabas ) whose eves they are commaunded to fast / as also their Lent and Ember dayes / besydes frydayes / and satardayes through out the whole yere . By this booke are the ministers instructed how to marry with the signe of the Ringe / and c. to baptise in the hallowed Font with signe of the crosse / with Godfathers and Godmothers / asking the childe whether it will forsake the devyll and all his workes / and c. to minister also their other sacrament or communion to the people kneeling / as when in popery they receved their maker / the wordes of Christes institution altered and others in stead of them takē out of the popes portuis / with innumerable such lyke enormyties and fopperies wherewith it swarmeth . And this is all the worship and service which many parishes have contynually / except peradventure some wrytten homelyes which the vnlearned priestes read vnto them . This service must first be read / and hath the preeminence even on the Lordes dayes before any preaching yra before the Bible it self : He that can read this booke distinctly is fit ynough with them to be priest / yea many that have ben Artificers / as Shoemakers / Taylers / Weavers / Porters / and c. and with out any giffes or knowledge at all / save only to read Englysh / have bene and are admytted and to this day maynteyned by the prelats in the ministery . To these Churches ministers and servyce must all the people there come every daye / yea though they have in the next parish a preacher / and in their owne a dumbe vnlearned priest / yet are they all tyed to their owne Church / and minister / and must at the least twise a yere receve the Sacrament at his handes . If they refuse this / or do not ordinaryly come to their parish Churche then are they summoned / excommunicated / and imprisoned / tyll they become obedient . In this bōdage are our countrymen there held vnder their Priests and Prelates : and such as by the word of God witnes against and condemne these abhominations / they hate punysh put to death / and persecute out of the land . Who now in whome any sparke of true light is cannot playnly perceive this their ministery worship and Churche to be false and adulterate ? doth Christes eternall testament or deyne and approve of suche popish Lordes and Prelats to reigne over his Churche ? are these those Christian Bishops / that is o Pastors / Teachers and Elders / which he hath set in his Churche and over his owne people vnto the worldes end ? Or can chose preachers which are thus created and deposed by / thus sworne and obediēt vnto / their spirituall lordes / be deemed true teachers of the Gospell of Christ lawfully called and ordeyned to that ministerye ? Is that their Englysh Masse the trewe and p spirituall worship of God according to his owne wil ? we are taught in the scriptures q that there can be no agrement made betwixt Christ and Antichrist / betwixt the Lawes of God and mens traditions : that the servants of Iesus may not submytt unto or receve the marke of that beast / neyther drinke of the cup of the whore of Babylons fornycations / or buy any of her wares : but must s contend for the mayntenāce of that faith / which was once gyven vnto the sainctes / keeping their ▪ soules and bodyes pure from Antichristian pollutions / touching t no vncle anethinge u nor having any fellowship with the vnfruteful workes of darknes / w least by partaking with their sunnes they receve also of their plagues / and dryncke of the wyne of the wrath of God / and be tormented in fyre and brimstone / before the holy Angells and before the lambe for evermore . If Christ be God let vs follow him : but if the pope be God / what shall wee say ? why have we left him / his Church and ministery / his worship and jurisdiction / or what halting and mocking with the Lord is this / to put away the popes person and retayne his prelacy and ministery his Lawes / Traditiōs and Cannons / his worship and service : or at the least to frame vnto our selves a worship ministery and Church after the patterne and mould of the Apostacye of Roome / which what other thing is it / them to make an Image of that first wild beast / and force men to worship it ? x Thus seest thow briefely ( good Christian Reader ) the thinges which we mislike in the Churche of England / and for which we have separated our selves / as God commandeth . y To all these / if we were amongst them / s — uld we be forced to submytt our bodyes and soules / or els suffer violence at the handes of the Prelats / and end our lyves by violent death or most miserable imprisonment / as many of our bretheren before vs have donne . For so great is the malice and power of those romysh priests / that they persecute vnto death such as speake against them : and such poore Christians as they cast into their noysome prysons / can seldome or never get out ( except with shipwracke of cōscience ) vntyll they be caryed forth vpon the Bere . Neyther is there any care taken for their reliefe in this case : but being thus cast into pryson / there they are deteyned without any alloweance of meate or money for their mayntenance / be their want and poverty never so great . If they have any thing of their owne / there they are driven to spend it vp : if they have nothing / there they are left by the Prelats to feede on the ayre . And that they maye more readily be sterved / or weakened in the truth / they are comonly shut vp in close prison / their frends and acquayntance being not suffered to come at them : Nay even their wyves and children being kept and debarred from them by the tyranny of these bloddye Prelats and their instruments : whose hard hartes and vnnaturall cruelty / if thou didest vnderstand ( gentle Reader ) as many of vs have felt / and to this daye yet feele it would make thy hart to bleede / considering their vnmercyfull and barbarous dealing . And how many soules have perished in their prisons through miserable vsage / how many have ben put to death and how many banyshed / though we could to their eternall infamy relate to all the world / yet wil we not blaze abroad their acts ( for we take no delight in laying open their shame ) but mourne for them in secret / commytting our cause to God that judgeth justly / knowing that he z that maketh inquisition for blood remembreth it / and will not forget the complaint of the poore . And thou ( Christian Reader ) voutch safe to remember vnto God in thy prayers such as yet remayne in bandes and pryson amongest them for the testymony of Iesus / enduring a hard fight of afflictions / and having the sentence of death in themselves are lyke ( if the Lord send not vnexspected delyverance ) there to end their dayes . Concerning our selves who through the mercy of God have found a place of rest in this land / for which benefyt we are alwayes and every where humbly thanckfull : we desyre ( Christian Reader ) thy charitable and Christian opinion of / and holy prayers vnto God for vs / whose kingdome we seeke / whose ordinances we desyre to establysh and obey : protesting with good consciences / that it is the truth of his Gospell only for which we stryve against those cursed reliques of Antichristian apostasie : vnto which we dare in no wise submytt our selves / no not for a moment . For if it be not lawfull for Christians at this daye to receyue the ceremonye● of Moses Lawe together with the Gospell as the Passeover / Circumcision / the Priesthood / Sacrifices / and c. which yet were once commaunded by God himself : how can we thincke it tollerable to observe the odious ceremonyes of Antichrist or submytt our selves to his lawes / Priesthood / Hierarchie and traditions / which the Lord never allowed / and which never entred in to his hart : yea which he hath so severely for bydden / with fearefull judgements threatned vnto all hat shall so do . But because we have bene very grievously slādred in our owne nation / and the bruit thereoff hath followed vs vnto this land / wherby we have bene hardly deemed of by many without cause / we have bene forced at length to publysh this briefe but true confession of our fayth / for the cleering of our selves from sclander / and satisfying of many who desyred to knowe the thinges we hold . Wherein if in any thinge we erre ( as who is so perfit that he erreth not ) we reade ( good reader ) thy Christian brotherly censure and information / promysing alwayes ( through the grace of God ) to yeild vnto the truth when it shall be further shewed vs / and leave our errors when by the light of his word they shal be reproved . In lyke manner it shall be thy part and duty to acknowledge and submytt vnto the truth / by whome soever it is professed / looking allwayes rather to the preciousnes of the treasure it self then to the basenes of the vessells which conteyne it / or the infirmities of those that witnes the same / in whose mortall bodyes thow shalt see nothing but the markes and dyeing of our lord Ihesus Christ . But hold not thy fayth in respect of mens persons / neyther be thow moved at the evyl reports wich have bene raised of vs : Here hast thow the trewe summe of our Christian fayth / try all thinges by the true light of Gods word : and if thou shalt reape and profit by these our labours / gyve God the glory / and remember vs vnto him in thy prayers . Farewell in Christ Iesus . 1596. THE CONFESSION OF FAITH OF CERTAINE ENGLISH PEOPLE , IN THE LOW COvNTREYES , EXILED . We● beleeue with the heart , & confes with the mouth : THat there is but * one God , one Christ , one Spirit , one Church , one truth , one Faith , one true Religion ‡ one rule of godlines and obedience for all Christians , in all places , at all tymes , to be observed . 2 God is a * Spirit , whose ‡ beeing is of himself , and giveth beeing , moving , and preservation to all other thing● , beeing himself ☽ eternal , most holy , every way infinit● , in greatnes , wisdome , power , goodnes , iustice , truth etc. In this Godhead there be * three distinct persons coeternall , coequall , and coessentiall , beeing every one of them one and the same God , and therefore not divided but distinguished one from another by theyr severall and peculiar propertie : The * Father of whom are the other persons , but he of none ; the Sonne ‡ begotten of the Father from everlasting , the holy ☽ Ghost proceeding from the Father and the Sonne before all beginnings . 3 God ‡ hath decreed in himself from everlasting touching all things , and the very least circumstances of every thing , effectually to work and dispose them according to the counsell of his owne will , to the glory of his name . And touching his cheefest creatures ▪ GOD hath in Christ ‡ before the foundation of the world according to the good pleasure of his will , * foreordeyned some ●en and Angels , to eternall lyfe to be ‡ accomplished through Iesus Christ , to the ● prayse of the glorie of his grace . 〈◊〉 hath also of al● according to his iust purpose foreappointed other both ●●xes● and ui●● , to eternall condemnation , to be accomplished through their owne corruptiō and desert to the praise of his iustice * In the beginning God made al things of nothing veri good : and ‡ created 〈◊〉 after his owne image and liknes in righteousnes ād holines of truth But * streight ways after by the subtiltrie of the serpēt which Sathan vsed as his instrument ( himself with his Angels having sinned before and not kept their first esstate , but left their owne habitation ) : first * Eva , then Adam being seduced , did wittingly and willingly fall into disobedience and trāsgressiō of the co●mnaund●●●nt of God. For the which , death ‡ came vpon all and reigneth over all ▪ pea euen ‡ over infants also which have not sinned after the like maner of the trangression of Adam , that is , actually : Hence also it is , that † all since the fall of Adam , are begotten in his owne liknes * after his image , being conceyved and formed in iniquitie , and so by nature children of wrath and servants of sinne , and subiect to death , and al other calamities due vnto sinne in this world and for ever . 5 All mankind being thus fallen and become altogether dead in sinne , and subiect to the eternall wrath of God , both by originall and actuall corruption : Yet * the elect all and onely , are redeemed , quickned , raysed vp and saved againe not of themselves , neyther by works ( lest anie man should boast him self but wholly and only by GOD of his free grace and mercy through faith in Christ Iesus ‡ who of God is made vnto vs wisdome , and rights a●s●es , and sanctification , and redemption , that according as it is written Hee that resorceth may reio●ce in the Lord. 6 This therfort is * lyfe eternall to know the only true God , and whom hee hath sent into the world Iesus Christ . And on the contrarie the ‡ Lord will render vengeance in ●laming fire vnto than that know not God , and which over not the Gospell of our Lord Iesus Christ . 7 How the rule of this ●nowledge faith and obediēc● , concerning the worship ād service of God and all other christiā dinityes , is not mens opinions devises , lawes constitutions or traditions w●ritten whatsoeuer , of men , but onely the written word of God , conteyned in the canonicall bookes of the old and new Testament ▪ 8 In this word Iesus Christ hath plainely reveled whatsoever his father thought needfull for vs to know , beleeue and acknowledge as touching his person and Office , in whom all the promises of God are yea , and in whom they are Amen to the prayse of God through vs. 9 Touching his person , the Lord Iesus , of whom , Moses and the Prophets wrote , and whom the Apostl●s , preached , is the ‡ everlasting ▪ Sonne of God the father by eternall generation , the brightnes of his glorie , and the engrauē forthe of his Person , coeffitiall co●qual , and coeternall , God with him and with the holy Ghost : Ioy whō hee made the worlds , vp whō hee vpholdeth and governeth all the works hee hath made : Who also , † whē the fulnes of tyme was come , was made man of a woman , of the Tribe * of Iudah , of * the seed of Dauid and Abraham , to wyt , of Mary that blessed Virgin , by the holy Ghost comming vpon hir , and the power of the most high ouershadowing hir : and was ▪ also † in al things lyke vnto vs , sinne only excepted . 10 Touching his Office , Iesus Christ only i● made the Medi●tor of the new Testamēt , even of the everlasting Couenant of grace betweē God & mā to be per●●c●ly and fully the Prophet , Priest and King of the Church of God for evermore . 11 Vnto this office hee was from everlasting , * by the iust and ●●fficient authoritie of the father , and in respect of his manhood from the wa●●h ●all●d and seperated ād † anoynted also most fully and abōdātly with all necessary gifts , as it is written : God hath not measured out the Spirit vnto him . 12 This office to be Mediator , that is , Prophet , Priest , and King of the Church of God , is so proper to Christ , as neyther in the whole , nor in any part thereof , it can be transferred from him to any other . 13 Touching his † Prophecie , Christ hath perfectly revealed * out of the bozome of his father , the whole word and will of God , that is needfull for his servants , eyther joyntly or severally to know , beleeve or obey : Hee also ‡ hath spoken and doth speake to his Church in his owne * ordinance , by his owne ministers and instruments onely , and not by any false † ministery at any tyme. 14 Towching his Priesthood , Christ * beeing consecrated , hath appeared once to put away sinne , by the offring and sacrificing of himself : and to this end hath fully performed and suffred all those things , by which GOD through the blood of that his crosse , in an acceptable sacrifice , might be reconciled to his elect : and having ′ broken downe the partition wall , and therewith finished and removed all those rites , shadowes , and ceremonies , is now● entred within the vayle into the holy of holiest , that is , to the very heaven , and presence of God , where hee for ever lyveth and sitteth at the right hand of Maiestie● apperring before the face of his Father , to make intercession for such as come vnto the throne of grace by that new and living way : and not that onely ▪ but maketh his people a ‡ spirituall howse , and holy Priesthood , to offer vp spirituall sacrifices , acceptable to God through him . Neyther doth the Father acce●● , or Christ offer vnto the father any other worship , or worshippers * 15 Towching his Kingdome , Christ * being risen frō the dead , ascended into heaven , set at the right hand of GO● the Father ▪ having all power in heaven and earth given vnto him ▪ he doth spiritually governe his Church : exercising his power ‡ over all Angels and men , good and bad , to the preservation and salvation of the elect , to the overruling and destruction of the reprobate : * communicating and applying the benefits , vertue and fruite of his prophecy and Priesthood vnto his elect , namely to the remission , subduing , and taking away of their sinnes , to their iustification , adoption of sonnes , regeneration , sanctification , preservation and strengthning in all their conflicts against Sathan , the world , the flesh , and the temptation of them : continually dwelling in , governing and keeping their harts in his true faith and fear by his holy spirit , which having once given it , hee never taketh away from them , but by it still begetteth and nourisheth in them repentance , faith , love , obedience , comfort , peace , ioy , hope , and all christian vertues , vnto immortalitie , notwithstanding that it be somtymes through sinne and tentation , interrupted , smothered , and as it were overwhelmed for the tyme. Agayne on the contrary , † ruling in the world over his enemies . Sathan , and all the vessels of wrath , limiting , vsing , restrayning them by his mighty power , as seemeth good in his divine wisdome and iustice , to the execution of his determinate counsel , to wit , to their seduction , hardning and condemnation , delivering them vp to a reprobate mynde , to be kept through their owne desert in darcknes , sinne , and sensualitie , vnto iudgement . 16 This Kingdome shall be then fully perfected when he shall the second tyme come in glory with his mightie Angels to iudge both quick and dead , to abolish all rule , authoritie and power to put al his enimies vnder his feet , to separate and free all his chosē from them for ever , to punish the wicked with everlasting perdition from his presence , to gather , ioyne , and carry the godly with hmiself into endlesse glory , and then to deliuer vp the kingdome to God / euen the Father , that so the glorie of the father may bee full and perfect in the Sonne , the glorie of the Sonne in all his members , and God bee all in all . 17 In the meane tyme , bisides his absolute rule in the world , Christ hath here in earth a * spirituall Kingdome and aeconomicall regiment in his Church , which hee hath purchased and redemed to himself , as a peculiar inheritāce ▪ And albeyt that manie hypoc●t●es do for the tyme lurke amongst them ‡ whiles the Church is militant here on earth , yet Christ nothwithstanding ●oy the power of his word gathereth them which be his into the body of his Church , calleth them from out of the world , bringeth them to hid true faith / separating them * from amongst vnbeleevers , frō idolatrie , false ▪ worship , superstitiō , vanitie , dissolute life , and al works of darknes , &c. making thē a royall Priesthod . an holy Natiō a people set at libertie to shew foorth the virtues of him that hath called them out of darknes into his mervelous light , gathering and vniting thē together as * members of one bodi in his faith loue and holy order , vnto all generall and mutuall dutyes , ‡ through his spirit instructing ād governing them by such officers and lawes as hee hath prescribed in his word by which Officers and lawes hee governeth his Church , † and by none other . 18 To this Church hee hath made the * promise● , and giuen the seales of his Covenant , presence , loue , blessing and protectiō : Here are the ‡ holy Oracles as in the A●ke , suerly kept and puerly taught . Heere are all the † fountaynes and springs of his grace continually replenished and slowing forth , Heere is Christ lifted vp to al Nations , hither hee inuiteth all men to his supper , his mariage feast , hither ought ‡ all men of all estates ād degrees that acknowledge him theyr Prophet , Priest and King to re●●yre , to bee enrolled ●mongst his houshold seruants , to bee vnder his heauenly conduct and goverment , to leade theyr liues in his w●lled sheepfold ād watered orchard , to haue communion heer with the Saincts , that they may bee made meet to bee partakers of their inheritāce in the kingdome of God. 19. And as * all his servāts and subiects are called hither , to presse their bodies and soules , and to bring the gyfts God hath given them so beeing come they are heer by himself bestowed in theyr severall order , peculiar place , but vse , beeing fitly compact and knit togeather by every ioynt of help , according to the effectuall worke in the measure of every part , vnto the edification of it self in love : Whervnto when hee ‡ ascended vp on high he gave gifts vnto men , and distributed them vnto several publik fūctions in his Church , having instituted and ratified to continue vnto the worlds end , onely this publick ordinarie ministery of Pastors , Teachers , Elders , Deacons , Helpers , to the instruction , government , and service of his Church . 20 This ministerie is craftely ‡ described , distinguished , limited , concerning these office ▪ their calling to their 〈…〉 administration of their office , and the●● maintenance in their off●●e , by most perfect and ●s●●ne lawes in Gods word : which * lawes it is not lawfull for these Ministers , or for the whole Church wittingly to neglect , trangresse , or violate in anie part nor yet to receive anie other lawes brought into the Church by any person whatsoever . 21. None ‡ may vsurp or execute a ministerie but such as are ri●tly called by the Church whereof they stand ministers , vnto such offices , and in such maner , as God hath prescribed in his word . And being so called , they ought * to give all diligence to fulfill their ministerie , to be found faithfull and vnblameable in all things . 22. This ministerie is alike given to every Christian congregation , with like and equall power and commission to have and enioy the same , a●● God offerith 〈◊〉 men and meanes , the same rules given to all for the election and execution thereof in all places . 23. As every christian congregation ‡ hath power and cōmandement to elect and ordeine their owne ministerie according to the rules in GOds word prescribed , and whilest they shall faithfully execute these office , to have them † In super abundant loue for their worke sake , to provide for them , to honour them and reverence them , according to the dignitie of the office they execute : So have they also * power and commandement when anie such default , eyther in their lyfe , doctrine , or administration breaketh out , as by the rule of the word debarreth them from , or depriveth them of their ministerie , by due order to depose them frō the ministerie they exercised : yea if the case so require , and they remayne obstinate and impenitent , orderly to cut them of by excommunication . 24. Christ * hath given this power to receive in or to cut of anie member , to the whole body together of every Christian congregation , and not to anie one member apart , or to more members sequested from the whole , or to anie other congregation to do it for them : Yet so , as ech Congregation ought to vse the ‡ best help they can heervnto , and the most meet member they have to pronounce the same in their publick assembly . 25 Every member of ech Christian congregation , how excellēt , great , or learned soever , ought to be subiect to this censure and judgment of Christ : Yet ought not the Church without great care and due advise to proceed against such publick persons . 26 As Christ hath for the keeping of this Church in holy and orderly communion , placed some speciall men over the Church , who by their office are to governe , oversee , visite , watch &c. So ‡ lykwise for the better keeping thereof in all places , by all the mēbers , hee hath given authority and layd dutie vpon them all to watch one over another . 27 Finally , whilest the Ministers and people thus remayne together in this holy order and christian communion , ech one endevoring to do the will of God in their calling , and thus to wallie to the glory of God , in the obedience of faith , Christ hath promised to be present with them , to blesse and defend them against all fraud and force of theyr enemyes , so as the gates of hell shall not prevaile against them . 28 But when and where this holy order and diligent watch was intermitted , neglected , violated : Antichrist that m●n of sinne did together with other points of Christian faith corrupt and alter also the holy ordinances , offices , and administrations of the Church : and in stead thereof brought in and erected a strange new forged ministery , Leitourgy and government . Yea and the nations kingdomes and inhabitants of the earth were made drunken with this cup of fornications and abominatiōs and all people enforced to receiue the beasts marke and worship his image and so brought into confusion and babilonish bon●age . 29 The present Hierarchy retayned and vsed in Englād of Arch●b . Primates , Lordbishops , Metropolitanes , Suffraganes , Deanes , Prebendaries , Canons , Pe●icanons Arch-Deacons , Chancellors , Commissaries , Priests , Deacons or Halfpriests , Parsons , Biccars , Curats , Hireling roving Preachers , Church-wardens , Parish-clerkes : Also their Doctors , Proctors , and other officers of there spiritual courts ( as they call them ) together with the whole rable of the Prelates and their Servitou●s from and vnder them ●et over these Cathedrall and Parishionall Assemblies in this confusion are a strange and Antichristian ministerie and offices : and are not that ministerie above named , instituted in Christs Testament , n●● placed in or over his Church . 30 These their Popish offices , Entrance , Administration and maintenance , with their names , titles , privileges , and prerogatives : also the power and rule they usurp over and in these Ecclesiasticall assemblies over the wholl ministerie , wholl ministration and affaires therof , yea one ouer another , creating Priests , citing , suspending , silencing , deposing , absoluing , excommunicating , etc. Their confounding of Ecclisiasticall and civile iurisdiction , causes and proceedings in their persons , courts , commissions , visitations , the Priests of lesse rule , taking their ministery from and exercising it vnder them by their prescription ād limitation , swearing canonical obedience vnto them , administring by their devised imposed , stinted popish Leitourgie , &c. Finally , the dispensations which they vse for plurality of benefices , licences of non residency , licence to mary and eat flesh ( both which with them are on certaine dayes ād tymes forbidden &c. These ( we say ) are sufficient proofs of the former assertion , the perticulars therin being duly examined by and compared to the rules of Christs Testamēt . Not to speake here , of Baptisme administred by midwives , of the Crosse vsed in Baptisme , of questions propounded to the infants , of the Priests surplice , prayer over the dead , at buriall , kneeling at the Lords supper , and other the like popish corruptions , almost infinite , reteyned and allowed among them . 31 These Ecclesiasticall Assemblies , remayning thus in , confusion and bondage vnder this Antichristian Ministerie Cour●● , Canons , worship , Ordināces &c. without freedom and power to redresse anie enormitie among them , cannot be said in this confusion and subiectiō , truly to haue Christ their Prophet Priest and King , neither can be in this estate , ( whilest wee iudge them by the rules of Gods woord ) esteemed the true , visible orderly gathered , or constituted Churches of Christ wherof the faithfull may become or stand Members , or haue anie Spirituall communion with them in their publick worship and Administration . 32 Therfore are * all that will be saved bound by Gods commādement with speed to come forth of this Antichristian estate , leaving the suppressiō of it ‡ vnto the Magistrate to whom it be lōgeth . And all such also as have † receyved or exercised anie of these false offices or anie pretended function or ministery in or to this fals● ād antichristiā constitutiō , are willingly in Gods feare to give over and leave those vnlawfull offices , and no longer to minister in this maner to these assemblies in this estate . Neyther may any of what sort or condition soever , give any part of theirs Goods , Lands , Money , or monry worth to the maintenance of this false ministe●ie and worship vpon any commandement or vnder anie colour whatsoever . 33 And being come forth of this antichristian estate vnto the freedom and true profession of Christ , besides the instructing and well guyding of their owne families , they are willingly to ioyne ‡ together in christian communion and orderly covenant , and by free confession of the faith and obediēce of Christ to vnite themselves into † peculiar and visible congregations : wherin , as members of one body wherof Christ is the only head , they are to worship and serve God according to his word , remembring to * keep holy the Lords day . 34. Then also * such to whom God hath given gifts to interpret the Scriptures , tryed in the exercise of Prophecy attending to studie and learning , may and ought ( by the appointment of the congregation ) to prophecy , according to the proportion of faith , and so to teach publickly the word of God , for the edification , exhort●tion and comfort of the Church : Vntill such tyme as the people do meet for , and God manifest men with able guifts and 〈◊〉 to such Office or Offices as Christ hath appointed to the publick ministerie of his Church ; But ‡ no Sacraments to be administred vntill the Pastors or Teachers be chosen and ordeined into theyr office . 35 And then wheresoever ther shall be a people fit , and men furnished with meet and necessary guifts , they are not onely still to continue the exercise of Prophecy aforsaid , but also vpon due tryall to * proceed vnto choyce and ordination of Officers for the ministery ād service of the Church , according to the rule of Gods word : And so hold on ‡ stil to walke forward in the ways of Christ for theyr mutuall edification and confort , as it shall please God to give knowledge and gra●e therevnto . And particularly , that such as be of the † seed , or vnder the governmēt of anie of the Church , be even in their infancie receyved to Baptisme , and made partakers of the signe of Gods covenant made with the Faithful and their seed throughout all generations . And that all ″ of the Church that are of yeares , and able to examine themselves , doo communicate also in the Lords supper ▪ both men and women , and in * both kindes , bread and wine . In which ‡ elements , as also in the water of baptisme , even after they are consecrate , there is neyther transubstantiation into , nor cōsubstantiatiō with the bodye and blood of Iesus Christ : whom the heavens must conteyne , vntill the tyme that al things be restored . But they are † in the ordinance of God signes and seales of Gods everlasting covenant with vs representing and offring * to all the receyvers , but exhibiting only to the true beleevers the Lord Iesus Christ and all his benefits vnto righteousnes , sanctification , and eternall lyfe , through faith in his name to the glorie and prayse of God. 36 Thus being righly gathered , established , and still proceeding in christian communion and obedience of the Gospell of Christ , none is to separate for falts and corruptions , which may , and so long as the Church consisteth of mortall men , will fall out and arise among them , even in true constituted Churches , but by due order to seeke redresse therof . 37. Such as yet see not the truth , may heare the publik doctine and prayers of the church , and with al meeknes are to bee sought by all meanes : Yet none who are growne in yeares may bee received into their communion as members , ‡ but such as doe make confession of their faith , publickly desiring to be received as members , and promissing to walke in the obedience of Christ . Neyther any infants , † but such as are the seed of the faithfull by one of the parents , or vnder their education and government . And further * not anie from one cōgregation to be received members in another , without bringing certificate of their former estate and present purpose . 38 And although the particular congregations be thus distinct , and severall bodies , every one as a compact and knit citie in it self , yet are they all to walke by one and the same rule , and by all meanes conveniēt to have the cōsell and help one of another in all needfull affaires of the Church , as members of one body in the common faith , vnder Christ their onely head . 39 It is the office and dutie of Princes and Magistrates ( who by the * ordinance of God are supreme governors vnder him over all persons and causes within their Realmes and dominions ) to ‡ suppresse and root out by their authority all false ministeries , voluntarie religions and counterfeit worship of God : to abolish and destroy the Idoll Temples : Images , Altars : Vestments , and all other monuments of idolatry and superstition : and to take and convert to theyr owne ●●vile vses not only the benefit of all such idolatrous buildings and monuments : but also the Revenues / Demeanes / Lordships / Possessions / Glea●es and maintenance of any false ministeryes and vnlawfull ecclesiasticall functions whatsoever within their dominions . And on the other hand † to establish and mainteine by their lawes every par● of Gods word / his Christian Religion / pure worship / and true ministery described in his word : to cherish and protect all such as are carefull ●o worship God according to his word / and to lead a godly lyfe in all peace and loyaltie : yea to enforce all their subiects whoever ecclesiasticall or civile / to do their dutyes to God and men●protecting and mainteining the good punishing and restraining the evill according as God hath commaunded / whose Lieutenants they are here on earth . 40 And thus the protection and cōmandement of the Princes and Magistrates maketh it much more * peaceable / though no wit at all ‡ more lawfull / to walke in the wayes and ordinances of Iesus Christ which he hath commanded his Church to keep without spot and vnrebukeable vntill his appearing in the end of the world . And in this behalfe therefore the brethren thus mynded ād proceeding as is before said / are both continually to † supplicate to God / and as they may to their Princes and Governors that thus and vnder them they may leade a quiet and peaceable lyfe in all godlines and honestie . 41 And if God encline the Magistrates hearts ●o the allowance and Protecction of the Church therin , it ought to be accompted a singular and happy blessing of God who granteth such nourcing Fathers and nourcing Mothers to his Church . And it behoveth all to be carefull to walke worthie so great a mercy of God in all thankfulnes and obedience . 42 But if God withold the Magistrates allowance and furtherāce herein , yet * must wee notwithstanding proceed together in Christiā covenant and communion thus to walke in the obedience of Christ / ād confessiō of his faith and Gospell even through the middest of all tryalls and afflictions / not accompting our goods / lands / wive● / children / Fathers / Mothers / brethren / sisters / no nor our lyves dear vnto vs so as we may finish our course with ioy / remembring always that we ought to obey God rather then man : and grounding vpon the ‡ commandement / commission and promise of our Saviour Christ / who as hee hath all power in heaven and in earth / so hath also promised ( if we keep his commandements which he hath given without limitation of tyme / place / Magistrates allowance or disallowance ) to be with vs vnto the end of the world : and when we have finished our course and kept the faith / to give vs the crowne of righteousnes which is layd vp for all that love his appearing . 43 Vnto all men is to be given whatsoever is due vnto them . Tributes / Customes / and all other such lawfull and accustomed dutyes / ought willingly and orderly to be payed and performed : Our lands / goods / and bodyes / to be submitted in the Lord to the Magistrates pleasure . And the Magistrates themselves every way to be acknowledged / reverenced and obeyed according to godlines / not because of wrath only but also for conscience sake : And finally / all men so to be esteemed and regarded / as is due and meet for their place / age / estate and condition . 44 And thus , wee labour to give vnto God that which is Gods , and vnto Cesar that which is Cesars , and vnto all men , that which be longeth vnto them : Endevoring our selves to have alwayes a cleare conscience towards God and towards men : And having hope in God that the resurrection of the dead shal be of the iust vnto life , and of the vniust vnto condemnation , everlasting . Now if any take this to be heresie : then do wee with the Apostle freely confesse that after the way which they call heresie , wee worship God the Father of our Lord Iesus Christ : beleeving all things that are written in the Law , and in the Prophets and Apostles : And what soever is according to this rule of truth published by this State or holdē by anie reformed Churches in their Confessions abrode in the world . We do also reiect and detest all straunge and hereticall opinions and doctrines of all Hereticks both old and new whatsoever . 45 Finally , wheras wee are much flandered and traduced as if we denyed or misliked that forme of prayer commonly called the Lords prayer : wee thought it needfull here also concerning it to make known that we beleeve ād acknowledg it to be a most absolute and most excellent forme of prayer , such as no men nor Angels can set downe the like . And that it was taught and appointed by our Lord Iesus Christ not that we should be tyed to the vse of those very words , but that we should according to that rule make all our requests and thanksgyuing vnto God , forasmuch as it is a perfect forme and paterne conteining in it plaine and sufficient directions of prayer , for all occasions and necessities , that have ben , are , or shal be , to the Church of God , or any member therof , to the end of the world . Now vnto him that is able to keep vs that wee fall not , and to present vs faltlesse before the presence of his glorie with ioy , that is , to God only wise our Saviour , be glory and maiestie , and dominion , & power , both now & for ever , Amen . MAISTER IVNIVS HIS FIRST LETTER , CONCERNING THE CONFESSION OF FAITH AFORESAID . To his beloved in Christ the Brethren of the English Church , now abiding at Amsterdam . GRace mercie and peace from God the Father and our Saviour Iesus Christ . I have received of late ( belooved Brethren in Christ ) a little booke by one of your companie ; which is intituled , The confession of faith of some English men banished in Belgia , and have knowne your desire partly by the speach of the same messenger , partly by the preface of the writing . But as concerning my selfe , beloved brethren , whom “ for nearnes sake peradventure yee have thought meete to be called vpon a part , I verily see not how much I can doe in this cause , or how I can fit your purpose . For I knowe that now long since euery man doth abound in his owne sense ; and that those that are other wise minded are “ with a brotherly mynd so fare to be borne with , holding the heade and fundation , til the Lord reveale things further vnto them . I know it is my part not to play the busie body , but that I should serve the truth and charitie in my standing and measure which the Lord hath bestowed vpon me , in Christian modestie and simplicitie , as farre as my skil and abilitie wil stretch vnto . Certainely when I considered “ this cause more diligently , I thought nothing more commodious or more safe for the publick and for you and my selfe , in all this matter , thē that we should embrace a holy silēce , if there be any thing , wherein we be offended , and that we commit our cause to the Lord , the author of our faith , and righter of our cause . But because after a sort , you will not suffer mee to be silent , and to cōdole in secret for the woundes of the Church , which is rent more then inough , by actions , especially being thrust forth in publik in this our age ; I wil declare faith fully , and with a good cōscience before God what I thinke : beseeching him who is author of truth and peace that he would leade both you and me alike into all truth according to his promise , & also dispose each of our mindes and affections to interpret brotherly one anothers requestes , answeres , admonitions , and finally all our duties , although ( as it commeth to passe , and is incident to man ) disagreeing from our sense and taste . I obserue therefore that there are three heads or chief poynts in your little booke , wherein you desire our counsell and iudgement . The first head is of doctrine , which you professe in your little booke . The secōd is of fact , whereof yee accuse the English Churches . Lastly the third is , of the conclusion , which you inferre by comparing that your doctrine with that practise of England ; namely that yee cannot with good conscience entertaine a communiō with those Churches , but that yee doe abhorre them with all your heartes . Therefore I will speak briefely of these 3. things , “ what I think , entreating you brotherly to take my answere in good part . I marvell that the point of doctrine , or little booke of your confession , beloved brethrē , is sent ouer to me . I marvell that it was sent ouer to all the students of holy Scriptures in all Christian Vniuersities ; for if there be a certaine consent of doctrine as you pretend it , truely I do not see what need there was , that you should set forth a newe confession in this consent of holy and auncient doctrine . But if there be a dissention peradventure in the doctrine , or rather a differēce , that in deed ought not to bee dissembled , if so be that yee thought it necessarie , that your doctrine should be declared . Besides , in that you send to mee ; yea that you send to publicke viewe , “ your confession , I marvell , brethren , yea I greatly maruell , what your meaning should bee , both in respect of the ende and the fact . For if ye haue set it foorth to that end , that yee might purge your selues , I pray you brethren , wherefore doe yee desire , to purge your selues with so many soules ; who have not knowē you as yet to bee accused ; who can neuer take knowledge of the right or wrong of your accusation ; and who are not called vnto it by any lawfull means ? and ( that which is worse ) wherfore would yee haue this done before so many “ deadly enemies to God and the Church , who thirst after nothing so much as the blood of the Church of God , and doe reioyce that we vndiscreetly make a publishing of these wounds : that they by these very wounds might spoyle the Church , that pretious bodie of Christ , of the blood of veritie , and juyce of charitie ? Finally , why doe yee this before so many weake ones , who not yet knowing , that yee are borne ( as I may so say ) are offēded , rather with a carcasselike stink of schismes in the Church , before they knowe certainely the bodie whereunto they may cleaue ? Alas brethren , is your purgation so much worth vnto you that therfore the publicke good of the Church should bee brought into so greate danger ? A Christian an humble , and godly minde ought to bee otherwise affected , and setting aside the respect of their owne priuate good , constantly thus to determine , let the earth rather first swallowe me vp ( as the Poet saith ) and let mee rather bee accursed for my brethren , then that by me , and for my credit sake even one of these little ones should be offended and kept from comming to Christ , and abiding in Christ my Sauiour . Verily let what will of my estimation goe to wracke , who am a Christian , let me be trampled vnder all mēs feete , so that by my fact , I take nothing from Christ , from his body , no not the lest thing . “ And that you my brethren are thus determined and resolved bending all your counsels to this end ; I am as strōgly perswaded , as he that is most . But the end which you have in common , alas for griefe , in this particular case ( pardon if I speake more freely , for yee would have me to speak ) from it yee seeme to have erred . For herein , if I see anie thing , the contemplation of your cause hath deceyved you , which thing I trust yee your selves without doubt will marke if ye would goe a little from that your particular sense “ from your cause . I have shewed that there is some errour in that end . Let vs come to the fact . In the fact yee frame a purgation of your selues . That thing is denyed to none , if there be cause , if measure , if place , if time . But where fore with mee brethren , who doe neither heare these accusations of yours ; neither if I should heare them , would I receive them rashly ? Wherefore in publick ? where yee knowe that it falleth out for the most part , that they who purge them selues , before they be accused , eyther bewray thēselues , or raise suspiciōs against themselues more easely thē they can afterward wash away . Yee knowe that the publicke voice is neither a iust iudge oftentimes , nor at any time almost a lawfull Iudge ; so greatly doth evil preuaile and beare sway in the publick . Therefor yee appeale to these Iudges , who can neither iudge , not take knowledge : finally , they are not onely no Iudges , but not so much as witnesses : so the private cause is not furthered , and the publique is many waies hindered . Ye will say thē , who shall bee ? What judges , what witnesses shal we call vpon ? Your owne preface shall answere yee for me . For whē , ye pronūce that ye have foūd a place of rest by the mercy of God in these places ( ye doe acknowledge I thinke your owne words ) ye plainely signifie two things . One , that if ye have found a place of rest , ye shall doe wisely , if ye doe not stirre , where ye may be in quiet . The other that where you haue a lodging , and a quiet seate that there in deed you must receiue the iudgement of your doctrine and faith , if ye will have the same lawfully knowne and approoued . Ye are in a Church furnished with the servants of God , whose pietie , learning , and brotherly loue to the members of Christ good men doe know . It is an vnlawfull course verily , to omit those among whom yee are and to call upon an other Church , or the whole publik state , “ or this Vniversity , or me who am a weake member therein , either in part , or in common . This order is godly , iust , lawfull , and tendeth to peace , and edification , which you ought first , modestly to have regarded , and to which I being a weake brother , am bounden by brotherly duetie , to recall my brethren , that goe astray , and not to be caried headlong , and to rush vpon the knowledge of things by this meanes offred ; besides all equitie and good order . Till ye shall doe this , I admonish , exhort , pray , and beseech by the most sacred & holy name of Christ , that ye would not call vpon me , neither any other , neither the publick it self : for by this preposterous course ( as we may so say ) ye do not disburthen your selues , as ye thinke , of enuy and blame ( if there be any ) but ye doe with suspition and praejudice burthen your owne cause , “ which I verily do not preiudice at all , I speak it religiously before the Lord. Let them speake first , with whom yee soiourne , whom yee deny not to be your brethren . But if peraduenture they shall not satisfie you , or yee shall not satisfie them , then let a new course be taken by lawfull order ▪ This no good man will denie , but till this be attempted , it will be vnprofitable to you , and hurt full to the Church , to take another course . But neither I , nor my Colleagues , nor other wise men , will euer be so vnwise as to preuēt or take this thing out of the hands of them , to whom the knowledge thereof doth of right appertaine . And so much of the doctrine . I come to the accusation which yee use against the Church of England , as ye write . In this accusation beloued brethren , I doe louingly entreat you , that yee would not take it in ill part , if I doe admonish yee of a few things which I thinke , I may of right doe . First , what need is there , that yee should accuse them ? Yee haue giuen place , yee haue ( as wee may so speake ) passed ouer into another Court : Wherefore you haue giuen place , no body desireth to know , or doth trouble you . If wrong be done you in England ( that I may grant there was done : it belongeth not to me , to affirme or deny who haue not knowne it ) yet this iniury hath ceased to prosequute you being departed from them . What compelleth you to be mooued , and to take vpon you , the burthen of accusation ? Why are yee not quiet being without the daunger of any hurt ? Why doe yee not rather passe ouer the iniury that is past ? Why doe yee not beare it ( if there be yet any ) in silence and hope , rather then to mooue that which is in rest ? It is plainely a Christian part , if thou beare it , and a prudent part , if thou abstaine from stirring the evill that is well appeased , an impotent thing , if thou doe contrariwise . And to what end I pray you is it ? To the end that you might purge your selues ? But here is no man that doth repeate anew , or lay these accusations against you . Wherefore serueth this purgatiō ? that yee may be euen with them against whom yee cōplaine ? But this is not the part of a Christian . I doe not thinke that this is your meaning . Is it to reforme them ? This indeed is an holy endeuour . But if yee could not doe this when yee were present , cōsider what yee can doe when yee are absent . But first of all consider with your selues , by what meanes yee take this way , namely to accuse to me , to others , to the publike , in the theatre of the Church , in the circle of the world ▪ Ah beloued brethren , was it euer heard of , that any priuate man ( to say nothing of a great communitie ) was euer amended by this course Further consider I pray you before whom yee bring these things . I will speak of my selfe , to whom alone yee would commit this your little booke ; I know not whether in this your little booke yee call upon me , as an intercessor , or examiner , or a Iudge . For if as an intercessor , were it not better that your cōplain●s were kept secret , then layed open ( which tendeth to reproch ) and the Church of Christ , innumerable soules , weake , strangers , to be beaten with the types of your impression . It is most manifest , that they against whom yee deale , wil be more prouoked “ by this grieuous sting If as an examiner , by what right can I doe it ? who haue no lawful authority from God , from the Church , from the Magistrate , or frō both the parties : neither if it should be committed , would I easily accept it ; I am so privie to my selfe , of my owne insufficiencie ; for who am I ? or what am I ? that I should be able , throughly to see euery particular thing , concerning you , and them , which are required to a iust examination . And this the right course of examination doth require , otherwise ( as Seneca wisely saith ) he that judgeth one party being not heard , albeit he iudgeth that which is right , yet he is vniust . Yee are not a little deceiued in this your iudgement beloued brethren : Yee almost do me an iniury , when ye call me to be a busie body , or think that I wil take upon me the part of an examiner , or ( that which is more subject to envie and farre from duetie ) of a Iudge . And brethrē , that which I say of my selfe , thinke that is the answere of the other brethren “ which are any where els in Churches and Vniversities . No wise man will rashly goe downe these steps , or clime vp to this seate of judgement . In deed concerning your faith and doctrine something may be said , if you expound it , and if the thing be done in order . But touching the accusatiō of your coūtreymen and of mattets passed to and fro ; no wise man by my consent , wil , on this condition take vpon him the burthen of iudging . And for Gods sake , consider the event of this fact . For I pray you whom would it profit if that were done which yee desire ? Certainly neither would it profit you nor thē , nor these with whom ye soiourne , nor the Church of God. Contrariwise whom would it not hurt ? This thing would set you more on fire : “ as contentions are woont the more to make hote , the more they are stirred . It would more alienate them whom yee pretend to be to injuriously enstranged from you : For this is not the way of teaching , nor of informing , nor of seeking reconciliation . It would rent asunder the good men whose hospitality yee doe now commodiously vse either frō you , or amongst themselues ( which duetie they have not deserved of you by their hospitalitie , ) It would set a more grievous fier on the whole Church , and spread through all her ioynts , which God turne away . And that “ vnwise mā which should vsurpe this authority , it would make a scorne to ill tōgues , while good men would pittie his vaine labour and your expectation . Lastly ( that I may also adde this , and marke brethren , how sincerely and brotherly I deale with you ) albeit I might and would lawfully give sentence both of your faith which yee declare , and also of the fact of accusatiō which yee bend against your countreymen : Yet yee by this course and maner of dealing have taken from me the authority of doing that which yee require touching your fact ; your selves by this maner of request do hinder your owne desier . Ye will marvalle perhaps at that which I say , and yet it is so . For you doe so require my iudgement as you doe also with all require the iudgement of all Vniversities and Students . If you request this in common ; then you doe not desire that I should doe it alone : but if particularly , doe you thinke that any of vs will be so mad , that when the judgement of so many good men and diligence is desired , some one Palamon should take vpon him the chiefest parts : and should by him selfe speake of that thing , which is required of so many as learned , yea better learned , and better furnished with pi●●ie , judgement , and experience , which requireth a serious consultation , an holy communication , and a ripe inoffensive judgment . But now of the third thing what shal I say ? “ your selves I think , beloved brethren , do mynd that if I cannot on this condition , neyther ought , to give answer concerning the two points a foresaid ▪ it would be vtterly vnjust if I should as yet determine any thing on eyther side towching the cōclusion which you draw frō thence , that is , from those premisses . But I verily suspēd my iudgemēt , brethrē I suspend my iudgemēt in this cause , even as God & nature , & reason , and al lawes command me to do . Ye know I think the causes by these things which ye haue now read , & shal learne besides by other things which God shal minister vnto you ( I hope ) by the spirit of trueth and wisdome . I ought not to iudge with my selfe of matters vnknowne , at least not so evident , neither yet with such forward boldnesse to pronoūce among you or others , the matter being not sufficiently manifest to my selfe . God knoweth and iudgeth , “ to whom stand or fall as many as are his servants . Otherwise I trust yee are not ignorāt that there are three things which euē frō the verie infancie of the Church , the holy fathers would haue to be distinguished by the word of God , among the people of God , namely , faith or doctrine , conversation or manners , and the order of discipline . And all wise men haue taught this with one consent , and delivered it to posteritie , that where the foundation of the truth of doctrine remaineth , which is the piller of saluation , although with most corrupt manners and discipline , there the Church remaineth , & that no man ought rashly to separate himselfe from that Church ( whiles he may tarry in it without ship wracke of faith and conscience ) or take from it the name of a Church , especially seeing euery Church consisteth of Pastors and flocke , which if some Pastors or Prelates trouble , yet it is vnmeete that this name either should be taken away from the other Pastors , which Christ doth witnesse by the doctrine of truth , or from the flocke which Christ hath purchased with his owne bloode , and doth daily sanctifie with the washing of the newe birth by the worde . This ought to be sufficient for you if any thing have offended you at home , “ that now the fatherly & mercifull providence of God hath provided for you elsewhere . Certainely whiles yee inueigh against those Churches , yee shal make that your cause neuer the better , neither more probable with good men : which thing if yee have not yet considered and conceived by my aduise and counsell , and by the admonition of those which wish you wel , experience it selfe at last ( God grant it be not to late , and he informe you in good ) will prooue all th●se things vnto you . For by the trueth of doctrine , holinesse of life , by the worke of faith and patience , and by the dueties of charitie euen towards them of whome yee professe that ye are wronged , yee shal rather approove your selves and your cause , thē by outcryes and publishing of writings , euen as our Sauiour is saide to bring iudgement to victorie not by filling the streetes with shouting and clamours , but by blowing gently into the smoking flax and tender handling the bruised reede . Which thinges seeing they be so , I beseech you most louing brethrē in Christ by that most holi name of Christ which ye profese , by those bowels mercie , wherewith Christ hath embraced vs frō on high , that yee would thinke of another course , that yee would take another way to salvation , to edificatiō , to peace . “ If there be consent , shake not your faith , which is not to be winnowed againe by new reasons . This course is suspitious . But if it must needs be sifted , let it suffice you that it be first approved by those servants of God among whome yee dwell : this is certainnly a lawfull course : Forgiue the former iniuries if any have beene , by Christian charitie to them from whom yee have received the same , & hide them frō others by Christiā wisdome . There is no feare , that by so doing yee should “ be burst : God will enlarge your harts by the spirite of charitie most cōmodiously . Looke to your selues that overcomming al sharpnesse and al bitternesse of minde yee may be acceptable to Christ and profitable to the Church , and that “ the sweet odour of your pietie may be spread in speach , in life , in order to all the godly without the stench of enmitie and schisme . Iudge not that yee be not iudged : But abstaine from those heavie determinations and conclusions ( as they call them ) against othermen , neither labour either to get Abetters or partakers in that your former iudgement ( which would be saide in you to be a spice of faction in them of imprudencie , or else to drawe them to an vnseasonable , vncivill , inconvenient and dangerous deliuerie of opinions . Pitie your selues I beseech you ( most louing brethren ) and the whole flocke which is gathered among you . Haue pittie of them whome thorough error & infirmitie yee cry out be hurt . Pitie your entertainers among whome it were a most i●iurious thing that ye should sowe these tates , especially being admonished . And it would be a greate indignitie by clamours and writings to brede in them suspicions and sinister opinions , eyther of your selves or of those your adversaries ( as you count them ) or els of both . Finally pitie the Church of Christ , which verily it is not comely , nor expedient neither in any case tolerable amōg so many and greeuous wounds which are “ universally given vnto it , to be further galled with this particular wound . So let God almightie loue you and Iesus Christ that most mercifull Lord , and our Sauiour be mercifull vnto you . And if I shall be able to doe any good in the publicke cause and yours , assure your selves that I will spare no diligence , no labour , no paines , that you with vs and all togither may be filled with sāctimony ( without which none shal se God ) with the good things of the Lord in his house , and before his face . And the God of peace which hath raised from the dead our Lord Iesus that great sheepeheard of the sheepe , by the blood of the eternall couenant , make you perfect in euery good worke to doe his will , working in you , that which is acceptable in his sight by Iesus Christ , to whom be glorie for ever and ever , Amen . And I pray you brethren suffer this word of exhortation , which I have briefely writtē vnto you . The grace of God be with you all , Amen . From Leyden this Saturday the 9. of Ianuary . 1599. Yours in the Lord Francis Iunius . The answer to the Letter aforesaid . To the Reverend and learned Mr. Francis Iunius , our beloved brother in Christ , At Leyden in Holland . GRace and peace from God the Father and the Lord Iesus Christ our Saviour . Reverend Sr. and beloved brother in Christ / we have lately received your letter / which you sent vnsealed to the Ministers of the Dutch and frēch Churches / that it might first be read of thē / and them be delyvered to vs. We have also read and weighed it / and thought it meet to wryte agayne / partly to thank you that vouched safe to write vnto vs : partly to satisfy you ( if we can ) in some thinges wherein we see you are mistaken : In the wryting wherof / we humbly request that speaking freely that which the thing it self requireth you would take it in good part / as you are woōt . Many thinges indeed you have wrytten which we do willingly acknowledg and consent therein with you . Those we will not touch at all . The rest we will prosequute in the same order / as by your self ●hey are propounded . Whereas there was a litle booke exhibited vnto you by one of vs / it is not so to be takē / as if you were called vpō alone or apart from others . For the brother which delyvered you the booke certified vs / that this passed betwene you / that by you it should be communicated with your Colleagues the governours of that Vniversity / and that you tooke vpon you to do it . Now if you have so done / how is it that you alone wryte back againe ? why also do you so often repeat and seeme to reprehend that you / you ( we say ) alone / apart / are called vpon ? If you have not done it / mynde then on whome the blame lyeth that it is not communicated with thē in that Vniversity / to whome by vs it was dedicated . And we do now agayne entreat you / that being myndfull of your promyse you would performe it : that so you with the other learned and godly men and brethren there / may eyther convynce our fayth and cause of errour / or els together with vs conted for this sayth once gyven to the Saints . The one of these we take it must needes be donne . And we gather it by comparing together Iam. 5.19.12 . with Iude ver . 3. This also is the very thing which we did desire and still do desire in that Epistle dedicatory . And let these thinges once spoken / suffyce ( we pray you ) for the crimination of calling on you apar● , which in this letter of yours you have so oftē objected and repeated . Next you propound three tinges to be considered in the booke it self / of which you promyse to speake / briefly and brotherly / what you thinke . 1. The first head ( you say ) is of the doctrine , which we professe in our booke . Be it so indeed . Here we expected ( because you purpose to wryte of the doctrine we professe ) that you would have discussed the articles of our fayth / and reproved the errours ( if there be any ) by the light of Gods word . And who would not have expected this ? But behold / there is not a word of the doctrine and fayth it self . What may this meane ? Is it because your self beleeu this faith to be trew-sound groūded on the word of God and agreable thervnto ? If so why thē wryting these thinges / do you not professe it ? Why do you dissemble it ? specially / whē you heare that this fayth is traduced as schisme / as heresy ? but you see perhaps that in the doctrine of faith we erre from the truth . If it be so / why then wryte you / and yet shew not the errours ? why do you not ( as much as in you is ) bring into the way such as do erre ? Do not whē request is made that the errours may be shewed by the light of the holy Scripture ▪ Certainly your godlynes perswadeth otherwise : yea / God himself requireth otherwise . Iam. 5.19.20 . Yet now when you touch not the doctrine it self / what is it that you wryte in this behalf ? Even this only / that you would perswade we have erred herein that we have publyshed the confession of our faith . First of al this concerneth the maner / not the matter it self . But yet let vs weigh your reasons : If ( say you ) there be a certayne consent of doctrine : then there was no need that we should set forth a new Confession in this agreement of holy and ancient doctrine . Doe you indeed speak as you thinke ? How is it then that some while synce / when the Germane and French Churches had before publyshed their Confessions of fayth / yet afterward the Belgick / Scotish / and other Churches set forth theirs also / notwitstanding that they agreed with them in the holy and anncient doctrine ? Yea tell vs ( we pray you ) what you think of that godly and learned Mr. Beza his pryvate Confession of fayth lately publyshed ? Not to speake of many other wrytten and divulged by many of the martyrs also / in their severall ages . Do not all these agree in the holy and anncyent doctrine of Godlynes ? Or should not therfore these Confessions have bene publyshed ? What soever you shall say for them / mynd the same also as spoken for vs. Secondly you say , if there be any dissention in doctrine , that ought not to be dissembled , &c. But what is this to vs / who have playnely shewed and reckned vp the thinges wherein we dissent from the Church of England / with whom we have to do in this behalf ? Neyther that only / but have also in our Confession not obscurely signified / concerning the thinges wherein the other Churches of this city and ours as yet do not agree . After these thinges / you come to discusse the end and fact of our publyshing this Confession . Touching the end , we have shewed it in the epistle and preface set before the booke it self . And we answer further / that we did this to the same end / that all the reformed Churches of late did publysh theirs . For proof wherof / let the preface of the Harmony of Confessions / compared with ours / speak for vs. If you take away the reasons by both alleadged / we yeeld . But if you cannot / then see whether both here and other where often in this letter you do not through our sydes strike at all these Churches lykewise . Our cause and cleering , we commyt to God and to all godly that love the truth . Such as before knewe not our cause they may now by this meanes have knowledg therof . Such as be enemyes of God / of the Church / of the truth / have nothing by this book of ours / wherof to rejoyce . They will rather be grieved when thus they shall see Antichrist that man of synne to be more and more discovered / whom the Lord in the end will wholy consume and abolysh / with the spirit of his mouth in the testimony ( not in the silence ) of his servants . 2. Thes . 2.8 . with Rev. 12.11 . and 14 6 7 8. and 20.4 . Fynally / such as be weak and by reason of the stink of schismes know not the true body of Christ whervnto they should joyne themselves / they may by this meanes be better instructed and induced more certainly to know and imbrace the true Church and fayth of Christ . Thus desyre we that the publyck good of the Church be holye forward / that Christ may have the preeminence over all . And thus have we spoken of the end / in which as yet we see not any mistaking or errour . Touching the fact , we answer in lyke maner as before concerning the end . Yea and the thinges which here you bring / for not doing it in publyck / you may vrge the very same lykewise against all the reformed Churches / against Athanasius , Origen , Augustine , Tertullian , and others of the fathers / against Zuinglius , Luther , Calvine , Beza , and many other of these ages / godly men / and divers of them also Martyrs of Iesus Christ : who have set forth in publyck their Confessions of fayth private their apologies complaynts / disputations / yea and their letters concerning matters in religion publyckly controverted . But these things perhaps came not in your mynd / whiles there was before your eyes only the contemplation of our particular cause : which thing your self ( we trust ) will perceive / if you turne your eyes a lytle from vs vnto others approved by your self . Moreover howsoever the evill ( wherof you wryte ) do prevayte in publyck : yet alwayes and every where wisdome is justified of her children / as Christ hath taught / Mat. 11.16.19 . And this shall suffice vs and all that are godly . Lastly / in a case of such weight and necessity / who should rather be called vpon then the students of the holy Scriptures in Christian vniversityes ? Who ( we pray you ) are esteemed to be of better or sounder judgment ? Whome doth it more concerne to take knowledg / of the truth and errours in religion ? Who should better instruct in the truth / or convince falshoold ? And to conclude / who can or ought to attend more to the discussing of these things ? But you object / that seeing we have here found place of rest , here also we must receive the judgment of our doctrine and fayth , if we will have the same lawfully knowen and approved , &c. Here come many things to be considered . First what if the rest and breathing / which here we enjoye / come vnto vs / not by the Ministers ( of whome you speak ) but by the Magistrats : which we do alwayes and every where acknowledg with thanckes . Secondly what if these ministers ( men indeed learned and wise ) should be of the same mynd with you / that they would not heare or speake any thing concerning our fayth and cause : inasmuch as they would not be eyther intercessours , or examiners , or Iudges ? Furthermore / what if our Confession of fayth have ben exhibited to them above three yeares synce / that by them it might eyther be approved / or the errours ( if there be any ) convinced ? What if some of them have denounced vs as hereticks and schismaticks ? What if they have received certayne articles full of lyes and sclaunders / spread abroad against vs / and yet to this daye have not gyven vs a copy of them / no though they were desyred ? What if vpon occasion offered we have dealt with them touching certaine corruptions yet remayning in their Churches / which notwithstanding they would not so much as acknowledg ? And finally / what if we after the concealing and not regarding of all these thinges / have now agayne this last yeare delyvered them the Confession of our fayth in wryting / before it was put forth in print ? You see what we could answer in this behalf : but we would rather have burned these thinges in forgetfulnes / if you had not so vrged vs as from you they might not now be concealed . Pardon you therfore and let them also ( we intreat ) pardon vs / that we speak freely : for you would have vs speak / yea you constreyne vs against our will to wryte these things / which we would have covered in silence / hoping hereafter for better . Besydes these / we answer also that in the preface before our Confession is signified / that not here only but almost every where we are traduced as heretickes / and schismaticks : and that therfore it concerned vs / to declare our fayth and cause not to these only but vnto all . The very thing which before vs on lyke occasion ( as is aforesaid ) both dyvers of the ffathers have don of old / and in later wines almost all the reformed Churches / and of the Martyrs not a few . And hitherto of your reasons alleadged against the publyshing of our our fayth : Which how weak they are now judg your self . But suppose they were strong / and that therfore herein we had erred / that our Confession came forth in publyck : yet now it is publyshed / the errours ( if any be found in it ) are certeynly to be shewed and convinced by the word of God. Otherwise you may easily gather that we shall be more cōfirmed in this fayth . And seing you ( Learned Sr. ) do purposely wryte cōcerning the Doctrine which we professe / and yet shew not any one errour in the Doctrine : consider wel what you have done . Will you be ready to help them who erre ( as you think ) in the manner and circumstāces ? and will you afford no help at all in the matter and fayth it self ? Far be this from you from your godlynes learning / wisdome / charity . And thus much of the first poynt which you noted concerning doctrine . 2 The second head is of the fact wherof ( as you say ) we accuse the Englysh Churches . Here also we expected / that you would have discussed those fower poynts / which are particularly rehearsed in the preface of this book / and which we shewed to be done and vsed by / them dayly in their divine worship : for which also we testifyed that we are banished and have departed from them . But of these neyther / have you not one word And yet this was the specyall fact / which we noted for to be considered in that Church . That other of the Prelats tyranny and persecution of vs / we touched but by the way and in a few wordes . We marvell therfore / yea and greatly marvell that these thinges which directly concerne the matter and cause it self / should thus every where be let passe by you / who yet pretend to bring into the way such as do erre . But les vs see nevertheles what the thinges are which you do here so much vrge . The first is / that those Churches from which we have departed , should not by vs be accused About the word accusation we will not contend : Onely this we say / we vse it no● ( that we remember ) except whē we treat of our owne cause who by them are accused of heresy schisme sedition etc. Of which for asmuch as we are accused among them / here and every where : what good man will deny vnto vs place of defence : But you say / no man desyreth to know why we came thence , and that the injury also hath left to prosequute vs being departed from them How these things escaped you we marvell . For in both of them you wryte other wise then the thing is . For both many do dayly desier to know why we came thence / and the injury hath prosequuted vs being departed / into this place to this very day Of the former we need cyte no witnesses : for they are almost infinite . Of the latter / besydes the Latine bookes publyshed at home by our owne contreymen / besydes the libels which they have sparsed against vs in this city besydes the sclaunders wherewith then do also pursue vs every where : besydes all these ( we say ) the Ministers them selves of the Churches Dutch and Frēch both here at Amsterdam and at Dordrecht are able to testifye ▪ they have received ( as we said afore ) certeyne articles full of lyes and sclaunders / wrytten against vs / and yet still they have them for ought we know ▪ Moreover / if none of these things had fallē out opēly before the world yet who knoweth not that Antichrists retinew ( such as be the Prelats ) do still resemble the nature and conditions of the Dragon / who out of his mouth cast waters like a flood after the woman / that he might cause her to be caryed away of the flood whom being present he could not devoure . Rev. 12. and 13 chap. As for that you annexe of concealing injuryes , it hath ben observed by vs / as much as we could . For neyther have we in particular related them / neyther can we if we would . We have noted only in generall / that these Prelats have done the very things / which the Scripture foretold should by the Beast and Antichrist be commytted Neyther are we in this kind of writing eyther the first / or alone . Thus heretofore have many of the servants of God wrytten / who in their severall countries have ben many wayes ve●ed by Antichrist . Neyther that only / but they have also noted downe the particuler persons / names / places / tymes / martyrdomes / causes / actions / injuryes . Search ( if you please ) the ecclesiasticall writers almost of everye age : search the Acts and momments of the martyrs / in this countrey in ours / in Scotland / in France / in the other countryes almost all here about : yea search the Acts of the Apostles / and see if such particular historyes be not there also recorded . Yet further / tell vs ( we pray you ) if this course had ben held by all / which you seem to exact of vs : from whence then could you or any other have that knowledg and evidence , as now is had / of the fulfilling ( throughout severall ages / of those prophecyes which are in the Scriptures / of the Beast / of the false Prophet / of Antichrist / of his mystery / exaltation / tyranny / marchants discovery / fall / etc. How should from their owne Acts / the adversaryes mouthes be so stopped / as now we see / heare and read / is dayly done by the martyrs and servants of Christ ? Lastly / how could your self and other learned men have so expounded that divine book of the Revelation ( not to speak of other Scriptures lykewise interpreted ) as you have now already done / which great fruit / and gratulation of all the godly ? Of the end which here againe you vrge / we have spoken both before in this letter / and in the epistles prefixed to the book it self . Adde herevnto / that if the Prelats and other adversaryes of the truth be not by these and the lyke wrytinges amended / they shall yet doubtlesse be made the more vnexcuseable . The visard also by which they have deceyved you ( as it seemeth ) and almost all others / was to be pulled of . But this could not be donne for the knowledg of all ( as was mee● ) otherwise then by publyck wryting . To omytt others / we appeale vnto your conscience ( learned S. ) whether you did think the estate of that Church and of those Prelats to be such in any measure touching their Antichristian constitution / leitourgy / ministery / Hierarchy ( which your self acknowledg to be that other beast / in Rev. 13 , 11.18 . ) as now for certeyne you heare and see it in that book as it were paynted out before your eyes . But of these things ynough is sayd in the book it self Surely these and the lyke their vnfruitfull workes of darknes / were to be reprooved / not dissembled / not allowed : especyally seing they are so stiffely by them retayned / defended / vrged : and that vnder a pretence of the Gospell / with which they have no more agreement then darknes hath with light / Beliall with Christ . Neyther is this to take vp burthens of Accusations , but to take away the visard of Antichristian apostasy / and to witnes the truth of Iesus Christ against Antichrist . which duty our Lord and Saviour Christ requireth of you / of vs / of all the godly : the Lord ( we say ) who in these latter tymes hath begunne to discover that lawles man of sinne / and will at length consume him with the spirit of his mouth / by the word of the testimony of his servants . So far of is it / that they should be accounted busy bodyes , which performe this duty to Christ : or that we herein have don you any iniury . So far of also is it / that we should think what you speak of your self , the same to be answered vs by the rest of the bretheren that are any where els in Churches , in Vniversityes . Not to speak of others / we know that Mr. Beza that worthy servant of God hath in causes not much vnlyke answered otherwise . But of this matter more herafter . In the meane tyme ( that we also may deale syncerely and brotherly with you ) mynd we pray you / whether you have not done your self iniury / whiles you have climed into this seate so confident●● to pronounce that of others ▪ wherof ( as we think ) you cannot any way have certaine knowledg : yea whiles you alone determyne of that matter / which ( to use your owne wordes ) requireth serious consultation and holy communication . Touching the event , we commit it to God / who ( we certeynly hope ) will worck al these things for good both to vs / and to thē by whom we are exiled and to these amonge whom we sojorne / and to the Church of God every where . And to whom ( we pray you ) would it not be good / if that were done / which we des●er ? ffor our selves , if we erre / let the righteous smyte and reprove vs / it shal be a benefyt and precious oyntment vnto vs. For our adversaries , if they be the more estraunged / it shal be their own fault not ours / nor theirs that shall godlyly and freely testifie what they see in this cause : And who knoweth / whether by this meanes they may be brought to consider more then heretofore both of the vnlawfull constitution of that Church / and of their outragious cruelty : and therevpon seriously endevour a godly redressing of the former / and an vtter repressing of the latter ? For the good among whom we sojourne , they shall have better knowledg of our fayth and cause : they may also grow vp together more strongly in the truth of the Gospell / whiles thus they are stirred vp more carefully to endevour that the corruptions wherewith their Churches yet are faulty may be duly abolyshed / and whiles such as are seduced by the errours of the Papists / Anabaptists / and other hereticks troubling these Churches are vpon this occasion drawne from such estate and stirred vp to search / knowe / and embrace the truth of Gospell . Fynally for the whole Church , we hope it shall hence also receive much profyt / if this fayth and cause ( which now a long tyme hath ben condempned for schisme and heresy ) if also that Antichristian Apostasy ( which now a long tyme vnder the visard of godlynes hath deceived the world in the mystery of iniquity ) if these things we say / being of so great moment / be examyned and discussed by the canon of the Scriptures / of so many and so worthy men furnyshed with learning / godlynes judgment / wisdome . And thus much of the second poynt which was concerning the fact . The third ( you say ) is of the conclusion inferred vpon comparing together the doctrine and fact aforesaid . Here first you affirme / you with●●ould your self in suspence in this cause . Be it so . It is God that can reveale this also vnto you / and perswade your conscience by his Spirit and word . Then you annex some things concerning the doctrine and consent of the fathers and all wise men in all ages : but you propound them so doubtfully that ( as touching our cause ) we cannot perceive what your meaning is . Your wordes may so be vnderstood / as we most willingly consent with you in this matter : agayne / they may be so taken / as we dissent from you not a lytle nor without cause . We are perswaded / that separation should not be made from any Church eyther rashly / or at all so long as we may remayne with sound fayth and cōscience . You must therfore speak more playnely / what you think of our separation if you suppose we have erred in this behalf : all those things being discussed by the word of God / which we have menc●oned in the preface and Confession aforesaid . In the meane tyme heare and ponder well ( we pray you ) what Mr. Beza that learned man and well deserving of the Church of Christ hath wrytten and publyshed some while since concerning this question . Thus he hath in his epistles publyshed / in the right epistle sent to Ed : Grir dall heretofore P●elate of London wherein wryting of the state and corruptiōs of the Churche of England he sayeth , If it be trew which is commōly reported , and wherof my self am not yet perswaded , that private Baptisme is there permitted to women , I see not what is to turne back againe from whence men came , if this be not : &c But if those things ●e true , which I thincke are not lykely , to wit , that the Metropolytanes retayne in vse those most fil●hy abuses ( then which the Church of Antichrist hath not any thing more intollerable ) namely , pruralyties of benefyces , lycences of non residency , l●cences to mary and eat flesh , and other the lyke : this were cert●nly ( which I speake with horrour ) not a corruption of Christianity , but a manifest defection from Christ : and therfore they not to be condemned ▪ but commended rather , which oppose them selves to such endevours , &c. These and many other the lyke sayings he hath in his epistles and other bookes publyshed . Now as touching the things which he thought not to be so much as lykely , we know them to be most true : neyther these only but almost an hundreth the lyke / as we have touched in the preface of our Confession . Among which we bes●ec● you consider these three specially ( yet so as you turne not your eyes away frō the rest ) the confirmation of such a● have be●● baptised ( when nowe they are waxen older ) administred by the Prelats themselves vnto this day : Their holy Orders of Clergy : The discipline and sanctions of the Cannō Law ( as they call it ) yet reteyned in that Churche : and tell vs ( we pray you ) freely and syncerely / what now you think of the estate of that Church / and of our separation . ●erily ( if we conceive you right ) your self expound the marke , the name , and the nomber of the name of the Beast , to be vnderstood of these , three last aforesaid abhomynations of Antichrist : In your exposition of Rev. 13. ver , 16.17.18 . And to receive these / you know also well i● forbydden vnto all vnder payne of eternall damnation . Rev. 14.9.10 11. and 18.4.5 . But to returne to M. Beza agayne / in him there are many thinges ( cōcerning our cause ) to be carefully observed : first / that his private epistles he set forth in publyck : secondly / that in t●● he di● not dissemble / but freely and ingeniously declare his iudgment of the estate of the Church of England : thirdly that yet he was n● busibody ▪ or vnwise which would clime into th●● seate / or by provoking that church made his cause the worse with good mē etc. fourthly / if ther were nothing els yet by this we may well think / that what you say of your self / is not the answer of the other brethrē which are in any place in Churches and Vniversityes : lastly that he should not have burst , if he had dissembled these things / nor yet while he wrote the godly and faythfully / was factious vnciuill , or sowed any ●a●es , but ha●e witnes to the truth of the Gospel of Christ and did truly shew that ●e trod in the steps of the Apostle who wryteth and testifyet thus of himself and of all the faithful servāts of Christ / we cānot ●o any thing against the truth , but for the truth . 2 Cor. 13.8 But these things by the way : Yet so as you may well consider with your self ( beloved Brother ) whether the things which here and ther in your letter you seem to insinuate against vs fal not vpō the very head of that most godly mā Mr. Beza by lyke right or rather indeed by lyke wrōg . Of other lyke godly and learned 〈◊〉 we will not now speake : it shall suffice here to have mencioned him / alone . And where you seem to acknowledg for true Pastors the Prelats and Priests by thē created ( such as the English ministery is knowē to be ) mynd how well you have done this and how agreably with the Spirit of God / which calleth such / Locusts , false Prophets , the whores marchants / &c. But touching that which you speak of Christ our Saviour how he brought iudgment to victory , not by crying out and filling the streets with clamours , but by blowing softly vpon the smoking flax and handling tenderly the brused reed . This we do indeed most willingly acknowledg / and pray that we may alwayes followe this his most sacred example . Neverthelesse / this also must be remembred that Christ dealt after one maner with the weack ( of whome here the speach is ) after an other with the * Scribes and Pharisees and other the like sworne enemyes of the truth : such as at this day be the Prelats and their complices : which who is it that doth not know ? who is it that doth not acknowledg . The same also may be seē in the Apostles of Christ and in their dealing with Simon Magus , Elymas , Hymenaeus , Alexander , Philetus , Diotrephes , &c. Which things being so we humbly besech you ( reverend and beloved Sr. by that most holy name of Christ / which you professe / by the mercyes of God wherewith he hath loved vs in Christ / that you would thnik of another course ( then such as yet it seemeth you allow ) that you would take an other way for discovering and destroying the defection of Antichrist for setting forward the salvation edificatiō and peace both of vs and others . Hold on to defend the true fayth ( as now a good while you have done with great praise and fruit of the godly ) and discover errours : maynteyne good causes and forsake evill : Strive for Christ and the truth of his Gospell / and fight against Antichrist and the remnants of his Apostasy . Let it be manifest to all / what your mynd and judgment is / not only concerning the fayth of Christ / but also concerning the mystery / Apostasy / and iniquity of Antichrist : ffinally / as touching our selves in specyall / if you wryte agayne / we do humbly and earnestly entreat / if any where we have erred in our fayth and chuse / that you vouchsafe to shew it vs by the light of Gods word ▪ Otherwise it wil be suspected / seing you bestow so much paynes in discussing these things which concerne the māner and not the matter it self that eyther you do dissemble your iudgment ( what soever it be ) or that in very deed you are of the same mynd with vs : specially seing now you have wrytten / that you do not any preiudice at all to our cause , and have spoken this religiously before the Lord. Pity● ( we pray you ) our Church , here exiled every where reproched / eaten vp in a maner with deep poverty despised and afflicted wel nere of al against which sathan hath now a long tyme attempted all vtmost extremyties . Pity them , from whome we have departed , who vnder pretence of the Gospell contynew still in Antichristian defection / and do so stifley hold and eagerly maynteyne it / as there is scant any among them that dare so much as hisse against it . Pity these Churches ( among whome we sejourne ) in which wheter you look at the publyck prayers / or the Administration of the Sacraments / or the execution of discipline / there be sundry ●a●es , ( if they may be called ●ares ) or rather corruptions / and those also not of small moment : at which as is reported the Anabaptists / and others not a few that lyve here do stumble : of which also we have heretofore conferred frendly with the ministers of these Churches ( men indeed learned and our bretheren beloved ) but hitherto we do not accord therein : yet hope for better consent herafter / by the blessing of God / and throug the help of you and other godly men . Finally / pity the whole Church of Christ , which verily it is not meet nor expedient neyther indeed ought among so many and grievous woundes of hers vniversally inflicted / to be further galled with this particular wound / that you should not take it in good part to have by vs the true faith of Christ publyshed and the remnants of Antichrists Apostasy discovered . And thus have we wrytten freely and boldly vnto you / good Sr whom we do vnfeynedly acknowledg to be godly / learned / and well deserving of the Church of Christ . For we had rather / that men should fynd fault with our boldnes / then that Christ should reprove vs for leaving his cause . Neyther doubt we but your self according to your wonted and commendable humanity / wil pardon vs this fault / whereinto we have ben drawen / not with a mynd to contradict / but with love of verity and affection of charity . And God himself even our father / which hath loved and called vs in Christ / and hath given vs eternall consolation and good hope through grace / fulfill in you all the gratious pleasure of his goodnes and the work of fayth with power / that the name of our Lord Iesus Christ may bee glorified in you / and you in him . The grace of our God and Lord Iesus Christ be with your spirit . Amen . From Amsterdam : the 19 of the second moneth called February / 1599. Yours in the Lord most addicted . Francis Iohson . ●aniel Studley . Stanshall Mercer . Henry Ainsworth . Georg Knyveton . Christopher Bewman . And the rest of the English people exiled for the Gospell sake and at this present remayning at Amsterdam . Mr. Iunius his second Epistle . To his beloved brethren the English people at Amsterdam . Grace and peace from the Lord. YOur Letters ( loving Brethren ) I received yesterday and read . If your messēger had shewed mee before , to whome , or whither I should have written , the matter had beene other wise caried : but I sought and wayted a whole moneth , being vncertaine to whom I might send . If any thing were done otherwise then we would , it was your owne fault . That ye giue no place to false suspition , I did nothing without the knowledge of my brethrē and Colleagues . To you I gave counsell : if it please you not , you may let it alone for me : it becommeth not vs to be contentious : for it is not our custome , nor the custome of the Churches of God. Now that Messenger of yours spake onely to me , without letters , and called not on any of my Colleages : What thē is the blame you lay vpō me ? * none forbad me to give counsel alone . You asked indeed about a matter of faith , but wee thought good rather to deale about giving you cōsell . What ? if a mā answere not according to your prescript , is it by and by an iniurie ? Give vs leave , brethrē , I pray you , to use our own iudgement : we thought it fitter to give you counsell , then to make an answere to your demaundes , and that this wee might doe vnto you in brotherly dutie . If we might not , ″ yet will wee bee more indifferent towards yow : you may for vs abstaine , you may rent the Letters , and we also will concele it . I wrote as touching counsell , because I thought ther was need of it . I wrote not of the question , because I thought the time was not for it . Otherwise I had neuer thought of you , or your matters , no not so much as in my dream : so greatly doe I shunne to bee a medler in other mēs matters . You will say , why w●s not the time for it ? Surely because the matter was not cleere to me , to have beene handled in order , and good maner : Wherunto by giving you counsell , I called you backe . For if you kept good manner and order , yow might hav shewed it : if you kept it not , you might have returned vnto it and observe it . I knewe nothing at all , either by you , or by any other , which I speake , to the ende that you suspect none that is innocent . Our manner is to make answere in order , to them that aske according unto order : if any aske not in order , our manner is to call them backe to order , as is meete : yea if any vrge vs a hundred times besides order : we will call him backe an hundred times vnto order ; or else by silence take order for our owne quietnesse and securitie . Will you therefore take the thing in question for graunted : Pardon me● ( deare brethren : ) this is more thē either y●ririe or charitie doth teach . Hee that speaketh a thing different , speaketh neither this not that “ of the questiō : but he who vppon advice dooth speake a different thing , dooth deferre his iudgement , giving sentence on neither side If you will not permit mee to do this , which euerie man may lawfully doe , “ I will take this one thing as my right , to keepe silence , that I may free my speach from cauillations . Hee that shall say “ I cōfesse the thing , shall wittingly offend against the truth . Others have set forth confessions . I know it , and I commend it : for eyther they seemed and were sayd to stagger in the hands of their persecutors , or else “ moved of consciēce they did it orderly with the consend and approbation of the Church : but he who writeth with a mind to dissent , writeth against order , and sifteth the soares of the Church against the law of charitie . But you professe , that if there be any dissention , you do not dissemble it ▪ Surely in your confession I see no token wherby I may be certainely perswaded of it . Haue me excused : my senses are to dull to smell out things that are so secret . And yet now I thāke you euē for this , that you acknowledge your dissent in some things from the ministers of the Church of Amsterdam : and I thanke God which moued mee to suspend my iudgement . Therefore I did well who beeing altogether ignorant of your matters , did yet so write that I prevented a thing by you dissembled , ( or at least obscurely set down ) by whole some counsel . The end , which is the cleering of your selves ( although I knew nothing of you ) you shall sooner attaine in one day by dealing with the Church wherein you are , then in an hundred yeare ( if you should live so long ) by writing to other Churches “ hither and thither . You do not yet perswade me that you have dealt orderly : if we sticke constantly to order , and you dislike it , at least beare with vs. For whereas you say that you are euery where proclaimed heretickes , &c. I knewe nothing of you , neither should yet have knowne any thing if you had held your peace : so strongly are my eares stopped against al rumors . Of the fact of the English Churches , I have not certaine knowledge : why would you have vs speake ? You might have been silent as I admonished you by my letters , and will you not let vs be so ? “ You may if so be you know the thing so well , have the iudgemēt of it with your selves : but to publish it among the people , to call for abettors of it , and to exact like iudgement of vs you cannot . Keepe your confidence to your selves , and leave vs our modesty , who have resolved not to speake of other mens matters , except we know them thoroughly . You thinke that other good mē will say otherwise , but I think better of them who in my perswasion are furnished with knowledge , skill , and wisedome from heaven , that they would sooner subscribe to our modestie , then to this your iudiciall confidence . To looke to the event , is a point of wisdome : which if you regard not , I pray God the author of all wisedome to give you discretion . Touching the conclusion , ( Bretheren ) what shall I say otherwise then I haue said ? I verily have resolved neither for you , nor for any mortall man to bee headie and inconsiderate in iudging : especially when it neither belongeth to me to do it , neither can it bee done with any fruit . If you can doe it rightly , wee doe not hinder you : but let vs who cannot , professe this one thing to you , that we can be no iudges . Touching others whome we knowe , we have spoken else where : but touching them , because we knowe thē not , “ wee do not yet speak . Cōcerning Beza ( how excellent a man ) that which you often say , take heede Brethren , you bee not deceived . He spake by way of supposition , which you expresse in your letters : we , because we see , and experience doth teach vs , that his wordes being spoken by way of supposition , are vnderstoode of many as spoken simply , dare not so much as answere by way of supposition . Is this such an hainous and capitall fault with you ? bee it farre from you Brethren , bee it farre from you to take that course with good men , which God , reason , and the times haue taught vs to be daungerous . Rash and headie iudgements are not to be required , not to bee endured , not to be heard . That God of truth might iustly punish vs , if casting a side discretion ( which is most needefull in these times ) wee should answere alwayes to all questions according to the lawes prescribed by such as propounde the same . These three things according to God and vnder him are a lawe to vs , veritie , charitie , and discretion . If any one of these bewanting , we are afraid to offend . We crave of you ( brethrē ) that at least , you woulde leave vs this our religious feare , till all thinges bee made more plaine and easie vnto vs : and if you thinke your selves more strōg in iudging , beare with vs as with weake ones , til by godly quietnes and holy studie , we may attaine to more high and certaine thinges . That which wee may doe , truely , godlily , brotherly , wisely , we will neuer be slacke to doe , if wee may profite you and the Church of Christ . The Lorde furnish you ( beloued Brethren ) with his Spirit , and direct you to veritie and charitie in holy wisedome and faith to the glorie of his name , the edification of his bodie , and obtayning of your owne salvation , Amen . Leyden , Wednesday , the 10 of March. 1599. Yours vnfeynedly , Fran Iunius . The answer to Mr. Iunius his second Letter . To the learned and our beloved Brother in Christ Mr. Francis Iunius at Leyden in Holland . GRace and peace from God the Father and our Lord Iesus Christ . Reverēd Sr. your letters were delyvered vs : which when we had read / we thought thus with our selves : If we wryte againe / it wil be thought perhaps ●ontentious if we hold our peace it may prove hurtfull to the truth . What is then to be done ? We must absteyne from contending / yet so as the truth be not forsaken for which the Apostle exhorteth even to ●omesty . Thus then ( worthy Sr. ) receive our answer briefly . In that you did nothing in this matter , without the knowledg of your brethren and Colleagues , we therefore give you thanckes : for now you have had consultatiō together / yet shew you nor any one errour in our fayth and cause . Touching that we rested not in your counsell , we had many and waighty reasons so to move vs which we signifyed to you in our former letters / but you have her● in silence passed by them . Vntyll you take them away / we think it cannot be shewed that in this matter we have done any thing otherwise then in good manner● and order meet and needfull . Publyck infamy requireth publick apology . Others that have set forth their Confessions , are by you acknowledged and commended We belyke only have offended in so doing : a●d that which every Church man lawfully do ( and almost every man vpō iust cause ) yet to vs and our Church you will not permit it . So indifferent are nou towards vs. Neyther when they set forth their Confessions did the whole . Ca●holick Church consent : and if you speak of ●●e consent and approba●●on of a particular Church / so also was our Confession publyshed But they wrote dissenting from the Church of Rome and the like / being moved of conscience . And the very same thing have we lykewise done / dissenting from a daughter of the Romysh Church / touching her Leitourgy / hierarchy / constitution to wit the Church of England . Yet they thus wryting neyther wrote ag●inst order , nor sifted the soares of the Church against the law of charity . No●no● we neythre And touching : he dissention not conceale , what need we wryte otherwise then as before we have done ? It is with the Church of Englād / that we had and still have to deale in this behalf : and that difference we did by name and vnder certayn h●ad●● particularly relate : as both the thing it self and our exile did necessarily require . Now although in some thinges we ▪ differ from the ministers of these Churches / yet were they not before they despise admonition to be dealt with in lyke sorte . Else you might indeed some what rightly vrge order and the lawe of c●●rity , if their names and pe●uliar descriptiō of that differēce had bē by vs particvlarly specifyed in that book . Nevertheles whosoever know and consider the practise of these ●hurches ( and of such only we speak ) they may by that practise and our Confess●on cōpared together pe●ceive there is difference betwene them and vs Yea we know that some have so observed . Otherwyse if it be as you pretend that in our Confession you see not a●y token whereby you may ▪ ●e● certainly perswaded there of ▪ how is it t●at in so great agreement they should by so many be judged as true Churches in the right fayth we as hereticks ? Besydes that even by this you do also grannt that you see not but they consent in one with vs / touching the corruptions of the Church of England , and our separation from them : seing he that hath but half an eye man there see these most playnly propounded . In which behalf we give thancks both to you / and to God that hath brought you to give this judgment and testimony , For this is the very thing wherein we desyred your opinion . And by this appeareth also how needfull it was for vs to set forth the Confession of our fayth / as now we have done in respect of the Church of England with which we have to doe and from which for that we dissent / we are accused as hereticks and schismaticks / yll reported of and dryven into crile . Touchinge the end , fact , and event , they being all in our former letters discussed / we will now speake no more of them agayne : save this only / that in the Preface besydes other thinges we noted this / that we therfore publyshed the Confession of our fayth / to the end the truth of God ( what lay in vs ) might be cleared from reproch of men / and that others might be brought together with our selves to the same knowledg and fellowship of the Gospell . Of the lyke wrytings and acts of others / approved by all the godly we need say nothing . Neyther will we speake more of the many and grievous afflictions which for this fayth now a long tyme we have susteyned . Only we will mention ( because you do thus vrge vs agayne ) a litle booke wrytten by your self of your owne lyfe . In which you relate many troubles and afflictions which heretofore you have suffered for religiō sake / being pursued by the enemyes of Christ and his truth . Now if any should obiect against you / That many godly men knew not these things concerning you ) neyther should yet have knowen them if you ●ad held your peace , that you have given place , and have passed ouer into another Court , that former injuryes , if any have bene , should by your self be borne in silence and hope , be forgiven by Christiā charity , to those from whom you received them , and hid from others by Christian wisdome , that there is no feare , least by so doing you should be burst , that every one should rather approve him self and his cause ▪ by dueryes of piety , and charity , then by outcryes and publyshing of wrytings , that the adversaries are no● by this meanes made better , but more provoked by such a grievous sting : that you might , if so be you knew the thing so well , have the judgment of it with yo●r self , and not publysh it abroade , that you should not take vp burth●ens of accusations , nor have judiciall confidence , that it is a point of wisdome , to look to the event : that rash and heady judgments are not to be required , not to be endured , not to be heard , &c. If any ( we say ) should object these thinges against you which you do against vs : would you not think it were vnjustly done of thē ? Why then do you that to others / which you would not have done to your self ? Why vrge you these thinges so vnjustly against this Church of Christ and all the members of it ▪ which hath suffered mo afflictions of all sortes / mo reproches imprisonments / losses / banishments deathes / then your self and divers other good men ( yea though your troubles were tē tymes doubled ) whose particular storyes notwithstanding are wrytten / publyshed / and approved . But we will let these thinges passe : for neyther do we lyke this course of aunting / disdayning wynding away from the point in hand so often used by you in your letters vnworthely : Neyther do we deny but your aflictions were as you have related / heavy and to be lamented which also / if you contynew fayth full to the end / the Captaine of our faith and beholder of our warfare will abundantly reward in the heavens even Iesus Christ / to whome we commytt and commend this whole cause : The Conclusion also hath ben debated before / And now what others think of our cause we referre to themselues eyther by silence to be insinuated / or other wise ( as they think best ) to be expressed . In the meane tyme we cannot omit M Bezaes modest and yet confident judgment : whose supposition , because it is , knowne to be of things most true and certa●ne / it is all one as if it had b●n simply propounded . And thus to collect we are perswaded is neyther to deale ●ll with good men / neyther hath God , reason or the tymes ever taught it to be daungerous . Nay , this rather do all these teach vs to be full of daunger whē as men are content to wink at the defection and remnants of Antichrist / and do not so much as by way of sup●osition beare witnes to the truth of Christ against them / being called into● question . And here ( if you please ) ponder with your self the first originall of that Antichrist his growth his exaltation ▪ Which Beza considering / judged 〈…〉 daungerous / as in the same epistle he professeth / that it putteth him ingreat ho●rour and feare , as often as he thinketh of these things , and foreseeth the same or indeed more grievous punishments to hang over the heads of many people who at first did gladly re●ive the Go●pell / ●to which now by litle and litle they fall away . As touchinge our selves we are not then who eyther can or will prescribe la●es vnto others . We are of al men the meanest and weakest . And this w● do freely and syncerely professe : and by all meanes we desyre to absteyne from to much confidence and to follow after an holy modesty . And now of you ( learned Sr. ) and of other lyke godly learned / strong / discreet men / we desyre to be instructed and informed yea to be brought agayne into the way / if any where we be found to erre in our fayth and cause . This also do those three things which according to God and vnder him ought to be a law to all men / verity , charity , and discretion instantly call for at your handes . In which respect we exhort / pray / and beseech you by the most sacred name of Christ that you come to help the Lord among the mighty . Religious feare ( which in all and every where is commendable ) will nothing hinder this Day it will further rather : whiles we cōsider that we are so to feare least we offend / as we do still remember withall / that God hath not gyven vs the spirit of fearefulnes / but of strength and love / and soundnes of mynde : that we should not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord / neyther of them that be his prisoners exiles / witnesses . 2 Tim. 1.7.8 . Pardon ( we pray you ) that we wryte thus freely vnto you . The regard of the truth and love of you wringeth it from vs. For we are studious of the truth of God / and also of your name and estimation . If there be any thing wherein we may be serviceable vnto you without hinderance of the truth and love / you shall commaund vs. And we trust you will require nothing of vs otherwise . Farewell in Christ Iesus : to whome we do hartely commend your holy and profitable labours and studyes . Amsterdam : the 18 , of March 1599. Yours with entier affection in the Lord : The brethren of the English Church at Amsterdam / exiles of Iesus Christ . Another letter of the same Church to Mr. Francis Iunius , wherin their second aforesaid was included and sent vnto him . HEre included ( learned Sir ) we send the answer to your second letter ( longe synce delyvered vs ) which we wrote the day after we had received yours : not afterward thought we needed not send it ( vnles some other occasion were offered ) both because your self intimated as if you would be silent / if we wrote agayne / and because in very deed you did in those letters yeeld vs the cause and answered nothing at all to any purpose / eyther touching our Confession of faith which was publyshed / or touching our former letters / which we sent vnto you thereabout . Of all which things / now let the Reader judge . If you aske / why we chaunged our purpose / and have now sent you this letter / which was wrytten so longe synce : ●o here this litle booke included withall / to witt / your letters trāslated into English and set forth in print . Wherevpon we are constreyned / not only to send these wrytten vnto you / but to set them forth in publyck also in the English tounge . Yet let nothing here offend you : for it is we / if any / that are injuried yea and the truth it self : inasmuch as your first letter was publyshed alone / without our answer which you receyved from vs. By whose fault / to what end / with what equitie / mynd you well . Sure that Priest which trāslated yours / wryteth in his preface ( how truly you know ) that your self delyvered the copy of your first letter to a worshipfull knight / of whō he receved it / and turning it into English imprinted it , Yet have we not hitherto gyvē vnto any so much as a copy eyther of yours or our owne : providing ( what we could ) for your credyt / ye so / as we neglected our owne our selves / and were traduced by others / as now by this book publyshed will appeare vnto all . But perhaps in this matter you purposed one thing / he another . Whatsoever it were / now you cannot but see / how the Prelats and Priests of our countrey do so interpret your letters / as if they had bene wrytten against the truth of the Gospell of Christ / which we professe / and for defence of the Antichristian Apostasy and tyranny / wherein they persist . Which thing we leave vnto you / to be weighed seriously before the Lord. Neyther is it to be omitted / that your private letters are set forth in publyck : yours ( we say ) who took it so yll that the Cōfession of fayth of this whole Church should be made publyck : whom these very letters of yours wrote so much of the publyck view , of publishing the woundes of the Church , vndiscreetly , before so many deadly enemyes of God and the Church : of not offending any one of Christs disciples of not provoking Churches : of every one abounding in their owne sence , &c. It is marvell if your translatour turne not your owne wordes vpon your self and tell you / that a Christian an humble and godly mind ought to be otherwise affected , and setting a side the respect of their owne pryvate regard . &c. But this the more vnjustly if he made your letters publyck without your knowledg . Which we indeed at first did suspect : tyll we saw your second Epistle come forth some while after the other . Neyther could we well thinke other wise of the matter / specially seing you wrote vnto vs / that we might rent the letters , and that you also would conceale it . Knowe moreover / that in the edition of your letters / there be certeyne clauses wherin the translation is not answerable to yours in latine sent vnto vs : which we by your originall amend in our edition nowe ready to be published . These ( and many other things which yet we conceale ) seem vnto vs to be of some moment . But we are deceived perhaps in our owne cause : and therfore you and your Translatour would / omytting all cōfutation / that others should have the iudgment therof : you in delyvering / he in publyshing your letters . But why then did you not douchsafe to give vs any knowledg therof ? At least / why did you not so provide as that letter of ours which was in your handes / should also be translated and published ? Did you thinck that * he which is first in his owne cause is iust ? Why then did you not also mynd / that his neighbour comyng after him will make inquiry of him , that so both partyes being heard / judgment may be gyven according to truth and equity ? For which cause / though we have hytherto borne this / yet will we hereafter meet with such dealing by the best and fyttest meanes we can . Neither doubt we / but all these things ( howsoever now they stand ) will at length fall out for good both to vs and to all other / which love Christ with all his ordinances / and hate Antichrist with all his abhominations . And having this hope / we will expect and endure whatsoever it shall please God / who is the Lord and faythfull maynteyner of his servants . Concerning the differences ( wherof you write agayne in your letters ) which are betwene vs and the dutch Church of this city / it needeth not that we wryte vnto non of the particulars otherwise then as before we have donne . If you do yet desyre more we give you to vnderstand that above a yeare synce we delyvered in wryting the true and particular narration of the whole matter / to the ministers and whole eldership of that Church : who ( if yet they have not ) ma● now communicate it with you . By it also will appeare / that we have donne what was our duty and as brotherly as we could . If not / let the errour be shewed and it shal be corrected God willing . In the meane tyme / because we are both pryvatly and publyckly so much vrged by you herevnto / we will briefely note the chief heades / wherin we differ from them / and where about we have had dealing with them / both before and synce you wrote vnto vs. They are these which follow : 1. The estate of the Dutch Church at Amsterdam : is so confused as the whole Church can never come together i● one : the ministers can never together with the flock sanctify the Lords ●a●e the p●esence of the members of the Church cannot certeynly be knowen : and fynally no publyck action whe●her ex●ommunication or any other can rigg●ip be performed . VVhich is cotrary to these Scriptures , 1. Cor. 12.27 . and 11.20 , 23. Math. 18 , ●7 . with 1. Cor. 5 , 4. Act. ● . 2.5 . Numb . 8.9 , Act. 20 , 28. 2. They baptize the seed of them who a●e not members of any visible Church of whom moreover they have not care as of membe●s / neyther admytt their parents to the Lords Supper . Gen. 17 , 7.9.10.11 . 1. Cor. 7 , 14. Exod. 12.48 . with 2. Caron 30 ▪ 6. &c. Numb . 9.13 . Hos . 2 , ● , 4. with Rev. 17.1 . Ezech 16 , 59 , &c. 3. In the publyck worship of God / they have devysed and vse an other forme of prayer besydes that which Christ our lord hath prescribed Mat. 6. reading out of a book certayne prayers invented and imposed by man. Exod. 20 , 4 , 5. and 30 , 9. with Psal . 141.2 . and Rev. 8 , 3. Lev. 10 , 1. Esa . 29 , 14. with Mat. 15.9 . Rom. 8 , 26. Eph. 4.8 . 1. Pet. 2 , 5. 4. That rule and commandement of Christ / Mat. 18 , 15 , 16 , 17. they neyther observe nor suffer rightly to be observed among them . 5. They worship God in the Idol temples of Antichrist . Exod. 20.4 . with Deut. 12 , 2 , 3. 2. King. 10 , 26 ▪ 27 , 28. and 18 , 4. Act. 17 , 23. Rev. 18 , 11 , 12 , &c 6 The Ministers have their set mayntenance after another manner then Christ hath ordeyned / 1. Cor 9 , 14. And that also such / as by which any Ministery at all / whether popish or other whatsoever might be maynteyned . 7. Their elders chaunge yearly / and do not continew in their office according to the doctrine of the Apostles and practise of the Primitive Churches Rom. 12 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8. 1. Cor. 12 , 11 , 12 , &c Act 20.17.28 . 1. Pet. 5.1 . / 2.3 4 See also ▪ Numb . 8.24 . &c. 8. They celebrate Mariage in the Church / as if it were a part of the Ecclesiasticall administration / wheras it is in the nature of it merely civill . Ruth . 4. chap. 9. They vse a new censure of Suspension , which Christ hath not appointed . Mat. 28.20 . Gal. 3.15 . 2. Tim. 3.16 17. 10. They observe dayes and tymes consecrating certeyn dayes in the yeare to the Nativity , Resurrection , Ascension of Christ etc. Exod. 20. commaundement / 2. and 4. Rev. 1.10 . 1 Cor. 1● . 1.4.2 . Act 20.7 . Col. 2 16.17 . Esa . 66 , 23. Gal 10.11 . 11 They recei●e vnrepētant excommunicates to be membres of their Church : which by this meanes becometh one body with such as be delivered vnto Sathā . 1. Cor. 5.5 1. Tim. 1.20 . These ( among other ) are the corruptions of the church aforesaid : which they are neyther able to defend nor willing to forsake . Herein therfore we differ from them as they which knowe this estate of theirs may perceive by our confession compared with their errours noted before : which the Lord give them to see and mynd . And for your self ( good Sir ) take you heed in godlynes ▪ that in this cause you do not in any respect with hold the duty which you ow vnto them / or defence which you ow vnto the truth . So let God almighty also love you / and Christ our Saviour be mercifull vnto you . And this you may do truly / Godlye / brotherly / wisely with great profit to vs and the Church of Christ every where ▪ Therfore we exhort and beseech you in the lord that you be carefull alwayes to help ( no way to hurt / the Church and cause of Christ ) by your studyes endev●urs / labours : which being thus directed the Lord Iesus blesse to the glory of his name / and your owne comfort for ever . Amen . Amsterdam . The first day of the seventh moneth called Iuly . 1602. Yours in Christ by whose grace we witnesse the truth of his Gospell● against the will worship and remnants of Antichrist what soever : Francis ●ohnson . Stanshall Mercer . David Bres●o . Henry Ainsworth . C●ristoph●r Boman . Daniel Studley . Thomas Bishop . With the rest of the brethren of the English Church now living as straungers at Amsterdam . A third letter , written by Mr. Iunius , vpon receipt of the ▪ last aforesaid , and of his tvvo former imprinted before in England , and therevpon by vs sent vnto him included withall . To his beloved brethren in Christ the English people at Amsterdam . Salutations in Christ . AN huge bundell of letters , beloved brethren , I received from you yesterday in the evening . I gave you counsell to rest from questiōs : you commaund me to enter into questions . I continew still in my purpose : for I esteem more of peace in the Church then of the seeds of strife : they that are fedde with these seeds , shall reap the fruit . Where you conclude and pronounce that I do therefore assent vnto you , it is a false conclusion : As towching the matter I have enjoyned my self silence : and although I be an hundred tymes called vpon by letters , I will continew still in the argument of counsell till I see another course taken . If it like you not , let it alone : neyther do I like the handling of questions in this tyme. It is more according to God that I be silent from questions in this estate of things , then that I powre forth my self and you together into them . You move many things in your letters , I wil rest frō those things , and will occupy my self religiously in the work of the Lord. Christian wisdome will never suffer me to speak of questiōs controverted , the one party being vnheard . That my letters vnto you , were translated into English , I have now first knowen it by you : I knew not that it was done . You object that my letters were not shewed by you . I beleev it : for both by letters and reports of many I have ben certifyed that they were not shewed . If it please you , shew them , for me you may . All shall see , how false reports have ben given forth concerning thē . I neyther am ashamed of them , neyther ever will be . But I pitty you ( I speak it vnfeynedly ) who for my letters give forth in publick your conclusions . With good men good dealing should be used . That the copyes of my letters were carryed into England , your selves may easily cōjecture , by what meanes it came to passe . About tē moneths synce , the Soveraign Quenes Ambassadour was there and two of your company dined with him . What hapned at that dinner you can remember . He came hither vnto me : he marveled at the fact of your departure : I told him that I had writtē vnto you , he desired a copy . To you I gave counsell : whosoever gave it forth in publick , hath done it without my knouwledg : I will not answer for an others doing , but for myne owne . In the meane while I will pray God that he frame your mynds vnto the truth , wisdome , love , and peace , and all our mynds vnto his glory . Farewell in the Lord. From Leyden in Holland . The 16. day of Iuly . 1602. Yours vnfeynedly , Fr. Iunius . The Answer to Mr. Iunius his third letter . To the reverend and our beloued brother in Christ Mr. Fr. Iunius at Leyden in Holland . Grace and peace in Iesus Christ . YOur third and very brief letter ( beloved Sir ) we received this last week . They were your letters imprinted and included that made the ●uge bundell , if so it were . It is not well said of you / that terme the Confession of Christian faith and defēce of publishing it to be questiōs and se●ds of strife , nor that you say we cōman● you to enter into questions . For the conclus●on , whether it be true or false / now let others judge which shall see your letters together with ours . Towching the matter , you have enjoyned your self silence . Yea and towching the maner and other things also where you can fynd no answer neyther . Yet for the matter it self if so be that with the Papists Anabaptists or any the like we did erre frō the true faith ▪ we doubt not but you would open your mouth to answer / to refute / to convince . But because in our faith you can shew no errour / and yet in this tyme and estate of things like not ●o stand for vs and this cause it is safest to be silent . Wisely done in deed but not according to God / who denoūcing by the Prophet hath said / Cursed be he that doth the worck of the Lord fraudulētly , and cursed be he that kepeth back his sword from bloo● : On the contrary / Blessed be he that shall reward thee , as thou hast rewarded vs o daughter of Babel to be destroyed : Blessed be he that shall take and scattering dash thy children against the stones . If this against Moab and the materiall Babylō how much more against Antichrist and the spirituall Babylon with al the daughters and abominatiōs thereof ? If this against the shadow and type how much more against the substance and body it self ? Of the argument of co●nsell ynough is said . If you repeat it a thousand tymes / and yet take not away our answer and reasons alledged in our first letters / we will alwayes repeat the same answer againe . Those many things which are conteyned in your letters and ours do now come forth in publick . Neyther doubt we but this is the work of the Lord. See therefore that you be occupied therein religiously . That any should speak of things controverted , we desier not otherwise then the reformed Churches and those godly mē and Martyrs of Iesus who with like purpose have published their confessions of faith and causes of their troubles being so constreyned . That your letters were not shewed by vs , we wrote not but this that we gave not a copy of them to any : for what cause / we wrote in our former . Shewed they were and read in the publick meeting of our Church If your mynd were to have them shewed to others that knew we not . But now that you write this is your mynd / we shall shew them together with ours publickly vnto all And if any have givē forth any false reports con●erning them , let thē now be ashamed . In the meane time your self provided by sending yours at first vnsealed / that they should be shewed to others and be read also of others before vs. Neyther doth it excuse the matter / which you wrote in your second , that ●●e messenger shewed you not to w●ōer whither you should have written , and that therefore you sought and wayted an whole moneth , being vncertayne thereof . For we did signify both these expressely / in the Epistle dedicatory prefixed before that book which by the messenger was delivered vnto you . Els how knew you at the moneths end more thē before whither and to whō to send ? Or when you knew / why did you not seale your letters ? Was it because you would have the shewed ? We beleev it : as also that for the same cause / the copyes of thē were caryed into England . And this too we knew / before they were translated in English : but we held our peace / wayting to see what would follow therevpon . Now your self see they are translated and given forth in publick . For them therefore and with them / we trāslate and publish ours : by which will appeare that we have dealt well with good men . You may call them as you please : it skilleth vs litle : this is the very thing we desier and endevour / that the simplicity of the Gospell of Christ / the iniquity of the defectiō of Antichrist / may more and more be made knowen vnto all . If for this thing you pity vs , we will beare it : praying that God in Christ would pitty you . Where you write / that two of our company dined with that honorable Ambassadour / it is not true / that we know of . Neyther can we cell / what hapned at that dinner . He sent not for vs to come vnto him / neyther did we like to intrude our selves . If by vs he would have ben certifyed of our cause / we would have done it willingly and syncerely . And you also / when he demaunded of you / might have shewed our letters with your owne / and the cōfession of our faith / and given also copyes of both the letters . So might the Translatour have given forth both in publick . So had you provided / that sentence should not be given / the one party being vnheard . Which thing Christian wisdome , your self say , suffreth not ●o be done in questions controverted . In this behalf therfore you have erred / and this by you is to be answered : notwithstāding that for his doing / himself is to answer / that translated and published yours without your knowledg . For our selves / if any where we erre / shew it ( we pray you agayne and agayne ) by the word of God / that is / by the onely rule of truth / and we shal yeeld most willingly . And thus we pray God that he would guyde you together with vs and all his alway vnto Iesus Christ / and that he would keep vs in him / who onely is the way , the truth , and the life . Whose name be blessed for ever . Amen . Amsterdam . Iuly . 21. 1602. Yours in the truth and peace of the Gospell of Christ : F. Io. H. Ains . D. St. S. Mer. C. Bom. T. Bis . D. Bre. Together with the other brethren of the English Church at Amsterdam . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A20920-e130 * For proof herof see Mr. Iunius owne words noted in the margine of his letter herafter folowing , and compare also this edition of it , with the translators before published . Notes for div A20920-e600 Act. 28 , 22 b Rev. 12. c Psal . 105 , 13 , 14. d 1 Pet ▪ 2.9 . e Psal . 46.1 . f Apoc. 2 , 5. gap 2 Cor 6 , 14 , 15 , &c. Psal 9● , 20. 2 Thes . 2 , 3. h Psa . 37 , 27 Ier. 51 , 6. Rev. 18 , 4. & 14 , 1. Neh. 6 , 6.7.8 . Harmon of confess . i 1 Pet. 2 , 5. Ier. 51 , 26 k Act. 2 , 38 40 , 41 & 8 , 36 , 37 & 15 9. Ioh. 10 , 3.4 5. Esa . 35 , 8.9 l Ioh. 15 , 2.5 Mat ●8 , 15 , 17 Lev. 13 , 46. Numb , 4.13 m Ioh 15 , 19. and 17.14 , 16. Mat. 3 , 12 Lev. 20.24 26. 1. Ioh. 4.5.6 About forty ecclesiastical popish offices are at this daye in the Churche of Englād never a one appointed by Christ in his testament . Apoc. 13. vvith what words & rites , in what habit & gesture , these things are to be done , they are taught in their rub●ik Some of them in certaine English books se● forth , have reckned aboue 100. popish corruptions yet reteyned in this church . o Rom. 12 1. Cor. 12. Eph. 4. p Iohn . 4 , 24 Mat 15 , 9 q Deu 6 , 4 , 5 Mat. 16 , 6 2. Cor. 6 , 14 15 Psal 106 , 34 35.36 . s Iude : ver . 3 t 2 Cor. 6 , 17. u Eph. 5 , 11. w Reb. 18 , 4 & 14 , 10 , 11. Mat. 6 , 24. x 2. King. 16 , 10 , 11 , 12. Apoc , 13 , 12 14 , 15. y Ier. 51 , 6. Mich. 2 , 10. Rev. 18 , 4. 2 Cor. 6 , 17. Act. 2 , 40. z Ps . 9.12 ▪ Heb. 13 , 3 ▪ A Gal. 4.4.5 6. & 5.1.2 . Heb. 8. & 9 & 10. chap. 2 Cor. 4 , 7 Iam. 2 , 1 Notes for div A20920-e1370 * Deut. 6.4 . 1. Tim 2.5 . Ephe. 4.4.5.6 . 1 Cor. 8.6 . & 12.4.5.6.13 . Ier. 6.16 . Ioh. 14.6 . ‡ 1 Tim. 6.3.13.14 . Mat. 15.9 . & 28.20 . Deut. 4.2.6 . & 12.32 . 1 cor . 4.17 . & 14.33 . 2 Tim. 3.15.16.17 . Gal. 1.8.9 . Re●el . 22.18.19 . * Ioh. 4.24 . ‡ Exod. 3.14 . Rom. 11.36 . Act. 17.28 . ☽ 1 Tim. 1.17 . Esa . 6.3 & 66.1.2 . 1 Ioh. 5.7 . Mat. 28.19 . Prou. 8.22 . Heb. 1.3 . Phil. 2.6 . 1 Cor. 8.6 . Micah . 5.2 . Psal . 2.7 . Gal. 4.6 . Ioh. 1.1.2.18 . & 10.30.38 . & 15.26 . Heb. ● . 14 . * Ioh. 4.24 . * Ioh. 4.24 . ‡ Exod. 3.14 . Rom. 11.36 . Act. 17.28 . ☽ 1 Tim. 1.17 . Esa . 6.3 & 66.1.2 . 1 Ioh. 5.7 . Mat. 28.19 . Prou. 8.22 . Heb. 1.3 . Phil. 2.6 . 1 Cor. 8.6 . Micah . 5.2 . Psal . 2.7 . Gal 4.6 . Ioh. 1.1.2.18 . & 10.30.38 . & 15.26 . Heb. ● . 14 . ‡ Esa . 46.10 . Rom. 11.34.35.36 . Gen. 45.5.6.7.8 . Mat. 10.29.30 . Eph. 1.11 ‡ Esa . 46.10 . Rom. 11.34.35.36 . Gen. 45.5.6.7.8 . Mat. 10.29.30 . Eph. 1.11 * Ep● . 1.3.4.5.6.7.10.11 . Mat. 25.34 2 Tim. 1.9 . Act. 13.48 . 1 Tim 5.21 . Col. 1.14.17.18.19.20 . & 2.10 . Ioh. 1.6 . Rev. 19.10 . 1 T●es . 5.9 . Rom. 8.29.30 . ●● . 23 . ●ud . ver . 4 & 6. Rom. 9.11.12.13.17 18.22 . with Exod. 9.16 . Mal. 1.3 . Mat. 25 41. Iob. 4.18 . 2 Pet. 2.4.12 . 1 Pet. 2.8 . Ioh. 3.19 . Rom. 2.5 . Prov. 16.4 . ‡ Esa . 46.10 . Rom. 11.34.35.36 . Gen. 45.5.6.7.8 . Mat. 10.29.30 . Eph. 1.11 * Gen. 1. chap. Col. 1.16 . Heb. 11.3 . Esa . 45.12 . Rev. 4 11. ‡ Gen. 1. 26.27 . Eph. 4.24 . Col. 3. to . Eccle. 7.31 . * Gen. 3.1.4.5 . 2 Cor. 11.3 . 2 Pet. 2 , 4. Iud. ver . 6. Ioh. 8.44 . * Gen. 3.1.2.3.6 . 1 Tim. 2.14 Eccle. 7.31 . Gal. 3.22 . ‡ Rom. 5.12.18.19 . & 6.23 . with Gen. 2.17 . ‡ Rom. 5.14 . & 9 11. † Rom. 5.12.18.19 . & 6.23 . with Gen. 2.17 . * Gen. 5.3 . & 6.5 . Psal . 51 , 5. Eph. 2.3 . Rom. 5.12 . Deut. 27.26 . & 28.15 . &c. * Gen. 3.15 . Eph. 1.3 . — 7. & 2.4 . — 9. 1 Thes . 5.9 . 1 Pet. 1.2.3.4.5 . Gen. 15 6. with Rom. 4.2 3.4.5.6.22.23.24.25 . Act. 13.38.39.48 . Rom. 3.24 25.26 . 1 Tim. 1.9 . Phil. 3.8.9.10.11 . ‡ 1 Cor. 1.30.31 2 Cor. 5.21 . Ier. 23.5.6 . & 9.23.24 * Ioh. 17.3 Heb 5.9 ▪ Ier. 23.5.6 . ‡ 2 Thes . 1. ● . Ioh. 3.36 . Zep. 1.6 Ioh. 5. ●9 . 2 Tim. 3.15.16.17 . Deut. 4.2.5.6 . Gen. 6.22 . Exod. 20.45 6 & ●9 . 42.43 . 1 Chro. 28.19 . Psal . 119. in the whole Psal , Esa . 8.19.20 . & 29.13 . Math. 15.9 . Col. 2.8.18.23 . Luc. 16.29.30.31 . Gal. 1.8 9. ● . Petr. 1.16.19 . & 3.2 . Reve. 22 ▪ 18.19 Deu. 18.18 . Act. 3.22.23 . Heb. 1.1.2 . & through the epistle . Ioh. 1 ▪ 1.14 18. & 12 49.50 . & 15.15 , & 20.31 . Pro. 8.8.9 . & 30.5.6.2 . Tim. 3.15.16.17 , 2. Cor. 1.20 . Genes 3.15 . & 22.28 , & 49.10 , Dan. 7.13 , & 9.24.25.26 , Ier , 23 ▪ 5.6 . Psal . 2.2.6.7.12 . & 16.10 . & 110. with luk , 24 44 , Ioh. 5.46 . Act. 10.42.43 . & 13.35 . &c & 17.3 . ‡ Prouer : 8.22 . Mich. 5.2 , Ioh , 1.1.2.3 . & . 12.37 . — 41 , with Esa . 6 . 1● 10 & with ▪ Act. 28.25 . Heb. 1 , cap Col , 1 . 1● , 16 , 17. & 2.9 . † Gal. 4.4 . Gen. 3.15 . * Heb. 7.14 . Reve. 5.5 . with Gen , 49.9 , 10. * Rom. 1.3 . & 9.5 . Gen. 22 18. Gal. 3.16 . Mat , 1.1 . &c. Luk : 3 ▪ 23 : & c : Esa : 7 : 14 : Luk : 1 : 26 : and c : Heb. 2.16 . † Heb. 4 15. Es . 53.3 4.9 . Phil. 2.7.8 . 1 Tim. 2 5. Heb. 9.15 . and. 13.20 . D●n . 9.24.25 . Ioh. 14 6. Act. 4.12 , ● Heb. 1.2 . & 3.1.2 . ● . & 7 , 24 & 12.24 . — 28 , Psal . 110.1.2.4 . & 45 Deu. 18.15 : 18 : Esa : 9 : 6 : 7 : Act : 5.31 : Esa . 55 : 4 : Dan : 7 : 13 14. Luk. 1.32.33 . * Pro. 8.23 . Esa . 42.6 . and 49.1.5 . Heb. 5.5.6 . † Esa . 11.2.3.4 5. and 61.1.2.3 . with . Luk. 4.17.22 . Act. 10.38 . Ioh. 1.14.16 , and 3.34 . 1 tim . 2.5 . Heb. 7.24 . Dan. 7.14 . Act. 4.12 . Esa . 43.11 . Luk. 1 , 33. Ioh. 14.6 . † Mat. 7.15.16 . and 24.23.24 . 2 Pet. 2 chap. 2 tim . 4.3.4 . Rom. 10.14.15 . and 16.17 . 1 tim . 6.3.4.5 . Ier. 23.21 . Ioh. 10.1 — 5. Rev. 9.3 . &c. * Ioh. 1.18 . & 12.49.50 . and 15.15 . and 17.8 . Deut. 18.15.18.19 . Act. 22.23.24 . Mat. 17.5 . Eph. 1.8.9.2 . tim . 3.15.16.17 . ‡ Pro. 9.3 . Ioh. 13.20 . Luk. 10.16 . Mat. 10.40.41 . and 28.18.20 . Deut. 33 8.10 . * Ioh. 1.18 . & 12.49.50 . and 15.15 . and 17.8 . Deut. 18.15.18.19 . Act. 22.23.24 . Mat. 17.5 . Eph. 1.8.9.2 . tim . 3.15.16.17 . † Mat. 7.15.16 . and 24.23.24 . 2 Pet. 2 chap. 2 tim . 4.3.4 . Rom. 10.14.15 . and 16.17 . 1 tim . 6.3.4.5 . Ier. 23.21 . Ioh. 10.1 — 5. Rev. 9.3 . &c. * Ioh. 17.19 . Heb. 5.7.8.9 . and 9.26 . Esa . 53. chap. Rom. 5.19 . 1 Pet. 1.2.19 . Ephe. 5.2 . Col. 1 20. ′ Ephe. 2.14.15.16 . Dan. 9.24.27 , Heb 9. and 10. chap. Rom. 8.34 . Heb. 4 , 14 , 16. and 7.25 . ‡ 1 Pet , 2.5 . * Revel . 1.5.6 . & 8.3 , 4. Rom. 12.1 , 12. Mar , 9.49.50 . Mal , 1.14 . Ioh. 4.23.24 . Mar , 7.6.7.8 . Esa . 1 , 12. &c. * 1 Cor. 15.4 . et c. 1 Pet. 3.21.22 . Mat. 28.18.19.20 . Psal . 2.6 . Act. 5.30.31 . Ioh. 19.36 . Revel . 19.16 . Rom. 14.17 . ‡ Iosh . 5.14 . Zach. 1.8 . &c. Mar. 1.27 . Heb. 1.14 . Ioh. 16.7 . — 15. Eph. 5.26.27 . Rom. 5. & 6. & 7 , & 8 , chap. and 14.17 . Gal. 5.22 , 23. 1 Ioh. 4.13 . & c. * Ioh. 13.1 . and 10 , 28.29 . and 14 ▪ 16.17 . and 16.31.32 . with Luke . 22.31.32.40 ▪ Rom. 11.29 . Psal . 51.10.11.12 . & 89.30 . — 34. Iob. 33.29.30 . Esa . 54.8.9.10 . † 2 Cor. 12 7.8.9 . Ephes . 6.10 . & c. Gal. 5.17.22.23 . Iob. 1.6 . and 2. chap. 1 King. 22.19 ▪ Esa . 10.5.15 Rom. 1 ●1 . & 2 , 4 5.6 . and 9.17.18 . Eph. 4.17.18.19 . Esa . 57.20.21 . 2 Pet. 2 chap. 1 Cor. 15.24.28 . Dan. 12.2.3 . Ioh. 5.22 28.19 . Heb. 9.28 . 2 The. 1 ▪ 9.10 , Mat 13.41.49 . et 25 , 31. 1 Thes . 4.15.16.17 . Ioh. 17.21.26 . 1 Cor. 15.28 . * Ioh. 18.36 . 1 Tim. ● . 15 . Heb. 3.6.9 & 10.21 . Zach. 4.7 . Act. 20. ●8 . T it 2.14 . ‡ Mat. 3.25.47 . & 21 . 1● . Luk. 13.25.2 Tim. 2.20 . ● Mat , 16.15 , 16. Co● , 1 , 11 , 1 Cor , 6.11 , T● . 3 , 3 , 4 , 5. * Psa , 52 , 11 , Ezra , 6 , 21. Act , 2 , 40. & 17 , 3 , 4 , & 19 , 9 , 2 Cor , 6 , 14 , — 18 , 1 Pit. 2 , 4 , 5 , 9 , 25 , * Ephe , 4 . 1● , 16 , Esa , 60 , 4 , 8. Psal , 110 , 3 , Act , 2 , 41 , Col , 2 , 5 , 6 , ‡ Esa , ●9 , ●1 , & 62 , 6. 1 Ioh. 2 , 2● , Ephe , 4.7 , 8 , 11 , 12 , Ier , 3 , 15 , Ezek , ●4 , chap , Zach , 11 , 8 , Heb. 11.28 , 1● , Mat , 23 , 20 , 1 Tim , 6 , 1● , 14 , † Mat , 7 , ●● , & 24.23 , 24. 2 〈◊〉 4 , 3.4 , Ier , ● , 3● , 22 , & 23.21 , D●ut , ●● , 3● , Revel , 2.2 , & 22 , 18 , 19. * Lev 26 , 11 , 12 , Mat , 28 , 18.19 , 20 , Rom , 9 , 4 , Esa , 59 , 20 , 21 , Ezek , 48.35 , 2 Cor , 6 , 18 , ‡ Esa . 8 , 16 , 1 Tim , 3 , ●5 , & 4 , 16 , & 6 , 3 , 5 , 2 Tim , 2 , 15 , Tit , 1.9 , Deut , 31.26 , † Psal . 46 4 , 5. Ezek. 47 , 1. &c , Ioh. 1.16 , & 7. 38 , 39 , Ephe , 4.4 , 7. Esa , 11 , 12 , Ioh , 3.14 , & 12 , 32 , Esa . 49.22 , Esa , 55 , ● . Mat. 6.33 , & 22 , 2. &c. Prov. 9.4 , 5 , Ioh , 7 , 37. ‡ Deut. 12 : 5 : 11 : Esa . 2 : 2 : 3 : & 44.5 : Zach. 14.16.17 , 18.19 . Act. 2 , 41.47 : Heb , 12 : 22 : &c : Psal : 87 : 5.6 . song : 4 : 12 : Gal : 6 : 10 : Col : 1 : 12 : 13. Ephe : 2 : 19. * see Article 18. afore : & Exod. 25 2. & 35.5 . 1 cor . 12.4 , 5.6.7.12.18 , Rom , 12.4 , 5 , 6. 1 Pet , 4.10 . Ephe. 4 , 16 , Col , 2.5 , 6 , 19 , ‡ Ephe , 4.8 , 10 , 11 , 12 , 13. Rom. 12.7.8 . & 16 , 1. 1 Cor 12 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 7 , 8 , 11 , 14 , 15 , 16 , 17 , 18 , 28 , Act. 6 , ● , 3 , & 14.23 , & 20 , 17 , 28 , Phil , 1 , 1 , 1. Pet. 5 , 1 , 2 , ● 4 ▪ 1 Tim , 3 , chap , & 5 , 3 , 9 , 17 , 21 , with 6 , 13.14 , Revel . 22 , 18 , 19 , Mat , 28 , 20. ‡ Rom. 12.7.8 . Ephe. 4.11.12 . with the Epist . to Tim. and Tit. Act. 6.3.5.6 . and 14.23 . and 20 . ●● &c. 1 Pet. 5.1 ▪ 2.3 . 1 cor . 5.4 . et c. and 9.7 , 9.14 . and 1● . 4 . et c. with Heb. 3.2.6 . and prov . 8.8.9 . * Heb. 2.3 . and 3.3 . and 12.25 . et c. 1 Tim. ● . 14.15 . and 6.13.14 . ● Tim. 3.14 . — 17. Gal. 1.8.9 . Deu. 4.2 . and 12.32 . Revel . 22.18.19 . ‡ Heb 5.4 . Num. 16.5 : 40. and 18.7 . 1 chron . ●6 ▪ 8. Ioh. ● . 10.1.2 and 3. ●● . Act. 6.3.5.6 . and ●4 . 23 . Tit. 2.5 . Ier. 2● . 21 . N●m . 8.9.10 . * Act. 20.28 . 1 Cor. 1. ● . Col. 4.17 . 1 Tim. ● . 18.19 . and 4.12 . and 5.21 . and 6.11.12.13.14 . 2. Tim. 1.13.14 and 3.14 . and 4.5 . 1 Pet. 5.1.2.3.4 . Rom. 12.7 , 8 , Mar , 28 , 20 , 1 Cor 4. ●● . and 12 , 4 , 5.6.7 , and 14 , 33 , 36 , and 16.1 , Eph , 4 , 10.11.12 , 13 , Revel . 1.20 . 1 Cor. 3.21 , 22 , 23. Mar , 18 , 17 , see besides these , the Article 20. before . ‡ Act. 6.3.5.6 . & 14.23 . & 15.2.3.22.23 . 2 Cor. 8.19 . 1 Tim. 3.10 . & 4.14 . & 5.22 . Numb . 8.9.10 . 1 Cor. 16.3 . † 1 Tim. 3.10 . & 5.22 . Rom. 16.17 . Phil. 3.2 . 1 Tim. 6.3.5 . Ez● . 44.12.13 . Mat. 18.17 . * 1 The● 12.13 . 1 Tim. 5.3.17.18 . Heb. 13.17 . 1 Cor. 9.7 . &c. Gal. 6.6 . * Psal . 122.3 . Act. 2.47 . Rom. 16.2 . Mat. 18.17 . 1 Cor 5.4 . 2 Cor. 2.6.7.8 . Lev. 20.4.5 . & 24.14 . Num. 5.2.3 . Deu. 13.9 . ‡ Act. 15.2.22 . with 1 Cor. 3.5.22 . & 12.20 . & 14.33 . Lev. 4. chap. 2 Chro. 26.20 . Psal . 2.10.11.12 . & 141.5 . & 149.8.9 . Act. 11. ● 4. 1 Tim. 5.19.20.21 . ‡ Mar. 13.34 . ●● . Luk. 17.3 . Gal. 6.1 . 1 Thes . 5.11 . Iud. ver . 3.20 Heb. 10.24.25 . & 12.15 ●ct 20.17.28 . Heb. 13.17.24 . Song . 3.3 . Esa . 62.6 . Ezek. 33.2 . Mat. 24.45 . Luk. 12.42 . 1 Thes . 5.14 . Mat. 28.20 ▪ Luk. 12.35.36.37.38 . Rom. ●6 . 19.20 . Deut. 28 1. &c. Zach. 2.5 . & 12.2.3.4 . Psal . 25 2 & 132.12.13 . &c. Mat. 16.18 . 2 Thess . 2.3.4.8.9.10.11.12 Apoc. 9. and 13. and 17 and 18. cap 1 Tim 4.1 , 2.3 . Psal 74 Esa . 14.13 14. Dan , 7 , 25. and 8.10.11.12 and 11.31.2 , Pet 2 , Cap , 1 Ioan. 2.18 : 22. and 4.3 . and 2. Ioh. vers● , 7.9 . Apoc. 9.3 . &c. and 13.15.16.17 . and 18.15.17 . 2 Thes . 2.3.4.8.9 . with Rom. 12.7.8 . and with Eph. 11.12 . 1 Tim. 3.15 . and 5.17 . Let this Article be Confered with the preceden . 1.7.12.13.14.19.20.21 , 22 , 23 , 24 , 28 : Confer this article with the precedent 1.7.12.13 14 , 19. &c. also Revel . 9 ▪ 3. &c and 13 : 11.15.16 17 , and 14.9.10 : 11 and 17.3.4.5 . and 18.15 17 , and 22.18.19 , Ioh. 10 , 1. Luk. 22.25 , 26. Dan. 7.8.25 . and 8.10.11.12 . 2 Thes . 2 : 3.4.8.9.1 Pet 5 : 3. with Ioh. 3.27.29 , with Rev. 2 11. Reg , 12 : 27. &c. Zach. 11.15.16 . Esa . 1.12 . and 2● , 13 and 30.22 Mar. 7.7.8 Gal. 1.8 . &c. and 2.4.5 . col . 2.20.22.23 , 1 Tim. 4.1.2 , 3. Ezec. 8 , 5. and 13.9 . &c. Mica . 2 11 Mal. 1 , 8 ▪ 13.14 . 1 cor . 14.34.35 . Exo. 20.4.5 , 6.7 . Num. 15 39.40 Psa , 119.21.113.128 . Deut ▪ 12.30 — 32. confer this Article with the precedent : See also Reu , 18 , 2.3.4 . ● . 1 cor . 14 , ●3 . Ier. 15.19 . Mal , 1 ▪ 4.6.8 . Hos 4.14.15 . Rom , 6.16 2 Pet. 2 19 Lev. ●7 . 1 — 9.1 cor . 10.14.17 , 18.19.20 . 2 cor . 6.14.15.16 , 17 , Song . 1.6 , 7. * Rev. 18.4 . Esa . 48.20 . & 52.11 . Ier. 50.8 . & 51.6 ▪ 45. Zach. 2.6 . 2 Cor. 6.17 . ‡ Rev. 17.16 . Mat. 22.21 . 2 Ch●o . 14.3.4.5 . & 15.8.9 . & 17.6 . 2 King. 23.5 . &c. Rom. 13.4 . † Rev. 18.4 . Zach. 13.2.4.5.6 . & 14.21 . Ier. 51.16 . Psal . 119.59.60.128 . Prov. 5.20 . Esa . 8.11.12 . & 35.8 . Rev. 18.11 Prov. 3.9.10 . Psal . 16.3.4 . with Exod. 20.4.5 . Iudg. 17.3.4.5 . Ezec. 16.17.18.19 . 1 Cor. 10.19.20.21.22 . with Heb. 13.10 . 1 Tim. 5.17 . 2 Cor. 8.3.4.5 . ‡ Luk. 17.37 . Phil. 1.5 . Ier , 50.4.5 , Act. 2 , 41.42 . P●●l . 110 , 3. Esa . 44.5 . N●h . 9 : 38 : 2 Cor. 9 : 13. with † 1 Cor. 1 , 2 , & 12 , 14 . 2● . & 14.23 , & 16 , 1 , Act. 14 , 23 , 27 , & 15.3 , 4 , & 16 , 5 , Rom , 12 , 5 , M●t. 18 , 17 — 20 , Rev , 1 , 20 , & 2 , 1 , 8 , 12 , 18 , & 3 , 1 , 7 ▪ 14 , Eph , 2.19 . C●l . 2 , 19. * Exod , 20 , 8. with Rev , 1.10 . Act. 20.7 , 1 Cor , 16 , 2. Gen. 18.19 . Exod. 13.8.14 . Pro. 31.26.27 . Eph 6 . 4●9 , Deut. 6.7 Psal . 78.3.4 . * 1 Cor. 14 , chap. Rom , 12 , 6 , 1 Pet , 4 , 10 , 11 , 1 Cor , 12.7 . Act. 13. 15 , 1 Thes . 5 ▪ 20 , ‡ Heb. 5.4 . Eph , 4.11 , 12. Num , 16.10.39 , 40. Rom , 12 , 7 , Ioh. 1 , 23.25 , 1 Cor. 1.14 , 15 ▪ 16 , 17. with chap , 3.5 , 6. * Act 6 , 3.5 , 6. & 14.21.22.23 . Tit , 1.5 . &c. Eph. 4.11.12 . 1 Cor. 12.7 , 8.14.15.28 , 1 Tim. 3. & 5 , cap. Lev. 8 cap. ‡ col . 2.5.6.7 . 2. Thes , 2 , 15 , Iud. ver , 3. & Mat. 28.20 , † Act. 2.38 , 39 , with Rom. 9.4 . & Gen , 17.7.12.27 . Rom. 11 , 16. 1 Cor. 1.16 . & 7.14 . & 10.2 . Psal . 22 30. Col 2.11.12 , Exod. 12.48.49 , Act. 16.15.33 , Mar. 10.13.14.15 , 16 , Gal. 3.8.29 . ″ 1 Cor. 10 , 3 , 4 , 5 , & 11 , 26 , 27 , 28 , 29 , & 12.13 , Rom , 2 , 28 , 29 , Col. 2.11 , 12 , 13. Act , 8 , 13 , 36 , 37.38 , & 15 , 9 , Gal , 3 , 27 , Rom. 5 , & 6. & 7 , & 8. cap. 1 Cor. 1.30.31 . * Mat , 26 , 26 , 27 , 1 Cor. 11.28 , & 10.3 , 4 , 16.17 , & 1● , 13. Act , 2.42 with . 1 , 14 , & 20.7.8 , Gal. 3 , 28. ‡ 1 Cor. 10 , 16 , 17. & 11.23 24 , 25 , &c , Mat. 26 , 26.27.29 . & 15 , 17 , Ioh , 12.8 , Act , 3.21 , & 7.56 , † Gen. 17 11 , Ronn , 4 , 11 , Exod. 12 , 13 with Heb , 13.20 , * Mat. 26.26 , 27. 1 Cor. 10 , 3 , 4 , 16 , et 11 , 23 , 24.25.26.27.28.29 . Reu , 2 , & 3 , cap , Act , 15 , 1 , 2 , 1 , Cor. 1 , 10 , Phil , 2 , 1 — 6 & , 3 , 15 , 16 , Heb , 10.25 , Iudae , ver , 19 , Leu , 4 , 13 , &c , 2 Chron. 15.9.17 . & 30 , 18 , 19 , 2 Cor , 13 , 1.2 , 1 Thes . 5 , 14.2 Thes , 3 , 6.14 , Mat , 18 , 17 , 1 Cor , 5.4 , 5 , ‡ 2 cor . 6.14 : 15.16 . Ezra . 4.3 . Exod. 12.43 . Lev. 22.25 . Deut. 7. cap. Exod. 34.12 Esa . 44.5 . Psa . 47.9 and 110.3 . Act 19.18.19 . † Exod. 20 5.6 . 1 Cor. 7 14 : Ge. 17 7.12.27 , Exod. 12 , 48.49 Act. 16.15.33 . Eph , 4.4.5 ▪ See also Arti. 35. before ● Act , 9 ▪ 26.27 and 18.27 . Rom. 16.1.2 . 2 Cor. 8.23 . Col. 4.10 . * 1 cor . 14.23 , 24.25 . psa , 18.49 Rom. 15.9.10 . 1 Tim , 2.4 . 2 Tim. 2.25 . Psal . 122.3 cant . 8.8 9 1 cor . 4.17 . and 16 ▪ 1 Mat , 28.20 . 1 Tim. 3.15 . and 6 13 14 Reu 22.18.19 . col . 2.6.19 ād 4.16 Act , 15 , cap. See besides the Article 1.22 , 33 * Ro● . 13 1 2 ▪ 1 pet ▪ 2.13.14 . 2 chron . 19.4 &c and 29. and 34. cap. Iud. 17 5.6 . Mat ▪ 22 21 , T it 3 ▪ 1. ‡ 2 Reg. 23 , 5. &c Deu. 12.2.3 . with 17 , 14.18.19.20 ▪ 2 R●● . 10 26.27.28 , 2 chron , 17.6 , psa . 101. pro. 16.12 and 25.2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , Act : 19 27 Reu 1● 16 and 18 11 12 , &c. † Esa 49 23 and 60 ● . 10.11.12 . Reu 21.24 Deu. 17.14 18 19 20. psalm 2 10 11 12. and 72 1 &c and 101. Iosh . 1 , 7.8 . 2 Chron 17 4.7 8.9 and 19.4 &c and 29. and 20 capit . Dan 6 25.26 Esra 7.26 pro 16 10 12 13 and 20 28 and 29 14. Esa 10 1.2 1 Tim 2 2. 1 pet . 2 13 14 Rom. 13 3 4. * Act. 9.31 pro 16 15 Ezra 5 & 6. cap. 1 Tim 2 2. Dan. 6 25 26 Reu 21 , 24 ‡ Act 4 , 18 19 & 5 28.29 . Dan. 6.7.8 , 9 , 10.22 . Luck 21 , 12.13 . Mat 28 , 20 1 Tim 5.21 . & 6.13.14 , † psal 20.9 . & 72.1 . 1 Tim. 2 , 2. 2 chro . 15.1 . 2 Hag. 1 , 1 ▪ 4.14 . & 2.5 psa . 126 1. Esa . 49.23 ād 60.16 . psal , 21 & 72. Rom. 13.3 1 Tim 22.3 4 Act. ● . 31 * Act. 2.40.41.42 . & 4.19 & 5.28.29.41 & 16.20 &c & 17.6.7 & 20.23.24 . 1 Thes . 3 3. phil . 1.27.28.29 Dan , 3.16.17.18 . & 6.7.10.22.23.24 Luk. 14.26 : 27 and 21.12 13.14 . 2 Tim. 2.12 and 3.12 . Heb. 10.32 &c 1 pet . 4. cap. Reu. 2.10.25.26 and 6.9 and 12.11.17 . ‡ Mat , 28.18.19.20 . 1 Tim. 6.13.14.15.16 . 2 Tim. 4.7 , 8 ▪ . Rev. 2 10. and 14.12.13 and 22.16 — 20. Rom. 13.1.5.6.7 Mat. 22.21 . 1 chron . 27. cap. Ezra . 7.26 . Neh. 9 , 36 , 37 , tit ▪ ●● . i pe . 2 ▪ 13 , &c. Exo 18 . 1● , 20 , 12 &c Le ▪ ●9 , 32 , Iob , 29 ▪ ● &c with 30 ▪ 1 &c Eph. ●●1 — 33 & 6 , 1 — 9 , 1 pet , 5 ▪ 5 , Tit , 2. cap. Mat , 22.21 , Act. 24.14.15.16 , Ioh , 5 , 28 , 29 , Dan , 12 , 2 , 3. 2 Cor , 4 , 17 , 1 Tim , 6 , 3.4 , 5. & 2 Tim. 1.13 , and 3 , 14.15 , 16 , 17 , Mat. 6 , 9-13 Luk , 1 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , with Mat , 14.30 and 26 , 39.42 , A●● , 1.24 , 25 and 4 , 24 , 30 and 6 , 4 , Rom , 8 , 26 , 27 and 15 , 30 , 31 , 32 , 1 Pet. 2 , 5 , Iam , 1 , 5 , 6 and 5.13 1 Tim. 2 , 1 , 2.3 . Eph , 6.18 , 19. 1 Thess . 5.17 , 18. Phil. 4.6 . Reu. 8.3.4 . Notes for div A20920-e3220 “ M. Iunius his words are , propter vicinitatem which R.G. in his translation hath omitted . “ Fraterno animo . “ Caus●● hau● . “ Vt sentio . “ Confessionem . “ Infestis . “ Atque hoc quidē fratres vobis esse constitutum deliberatūq . huc adlaborare consilia vestra , tā sum persuasus , &c. Sed quem fin●m in communi habetis , ab eo &c. videmini aberrasse . “ A causa vestra . “ Aut Academiam hanc . “ Cui ego quidē nullū praejudiciū facio , religiose dico coram Domino . Vt dem ●irisse factā . Impotens . “ Hoc gravi aculeo . “ Qui vbiuis locorum sunt . Hac lege . “ Res ista vos magis inflamma●●t , prout contentiones magis f●rv● facere solent quò moventur magis . Illos magis abaliena●et , quos iniquius abalienatos à vobis esse ob●enditis , &c. “ Imprude●●m . “ Ipsi opinor , fratres charissimi , animadvertitis , si de antecedentibus illis duobus capitibus nec possum ea lege , nec debeo respōsum dare , id planè iniquū fore si de ea conclusione , &c. “ Cui stant . “ quòd jam . &c. “ Si consensio est . “ Rumpamini . “ Odor suavissimus . “ Vniversè , vniversally , or , every where Notes for div A20920-e3680 Eph. 5.11 . Reb. 18.6 ▪ 7 Ier. 50.14 . Mat. 16.3.4 and 23. cap. Notes for div A20920-e4880 * Nemo vetuit ut solus consilium darem . ″ Si non licuit nobis , at nos aequiores erimus erga vos : licet per nos abstinere , literas licet descindere , etiam nobis dissimulaturis . “ De questione . “ Vnum mili assumam pro jure meo , silentium , &c. “ Qui me confessum dixerit in veritatem impinget sciens . “ Religione adducti . “ Huc illuc . “ Vos 〈◊〉 novistis probe , 〈…〉 vos 〈◊〉 potest●s : Se● in vulga id peo 〈◊〉 &c. non potestis . “ Ne adhue quidem dicimus . Notes for div A20920-e5120 Iude ver ▪ ● There 〈◊〉 one conditi●n of a fa●e church ●●other of a 〈…〉 ( though co●rupted ) ●ven till it despise admonition Vita D.F. Iunij , publyshed in the yeare 1595 Bez. epis . 8. Notes for div A20920-e5510 * Pro. 18 , 1● Consider here also your owne ●llegation out of Seneca before Pag. 35. Notes for div A20920-e6370 ●er . 48.10 . Psa . 137.8 . ● 
A27068	----	Whether parish congregations be true Christian churches and the capable consenting incumbents, be truly their pastors, or bishops over their flocks ... : written by Richard Baxter as an explication of some passages in his former writings, especially his Treatise of episcopacy, misunderstood and misapplied by some, and answering the strongest objections of some of them, especially a book called, Mr. Baxters judgment and reasons against communicating with the parish assemblies, as by law required, and another called, A theological dialogue, or, Catholick communion once more defended, upon mens necessitating importunity / by Richard Baxter. Baxter, Richard, 1615-1691. 1684 Approx. 237 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 71 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2006-06 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). 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A27068) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 63048) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 305:13) Whether parish congregations be true Christian churches and the capable consenting incumbents, be truly their pastors, or bishops over their flocks ... : written by Richard Baxter as an explication of some passages in his former writings, especially his Treatise of episcopacy, misunderstood and misapplied by some, and answering the strongest objections of some of them, especially a book called, Mr. Baxters judgment and reasons against communicating with the parish assemblies, as by law required, and another called, A theological dialogue, or, Catholick communion once more defended, upon mens necessitating importunity / by Richard Baxter. Baxter, Richard, 1615-1691. 44, 32 p. Printed for Thomas Parkhurst ..., London : 1684. "A short answer to the chief objections in a book entituled A theological dialogue, &c." has separate paging. 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Chauncy, Isaac, 1632-1712. -- Theological dialogue. Brownists. Protestantism. 2005-07 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2006-01 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2006-03 John Latta Sampled and proofread 2006-03 John Latta Text and markup reviewed and edited 2006-04 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion WHET●ER Parish C●●gregations BE TRUE Christian Churches , ●●d the Capable Consenting Incumbents , be truly their Pastors , or Bishops over their Flocks . 〈◊〉 Whether the old Protestants , Conformists , and Noncon●●rmists , or the Brownists , were in the right herein . And how 〈…〉 our present Case is the same . 〈◊〉 by Richard Baxter , as an Explication of some Passages in his For●●● Writings , especially , his Treatise of Episcopacy , misunderstood and misapplied by some ; and answering the strongest Objections of some of them , especially a Book called , R. Baxters Judgment and Reasons against Communicating with the Parish Assemblies , as by Law required . And another called , A Theological Dialogue . CATHOLICK COMMUNION once more Defended , upon ●●ns necessitating importunity . By RICHARD BAXTER LONDON : 〈◊〉 in Parkhurst , at the Bible and Three - 〈◊〉 , near Mercers Chappel . 1684. Communion with Parish Churches vindicated , In Answer to a Book entituled , The Judgment of Mr. Baxter , against Communicating , &c. Mistaking my writings . A Church is not formally , quid Physi●um , but quid morale politicum Relativum , a political Relative being . II. The same name signifieth both the Genus and Species , that are divers by use . III. The same is true of the name [ Pastor . ] IV. Diocesan Churches are of three sorts . 1. Such as have at present but one fixed Assembly , but design to gather more hereafter : Such , Dr. Hammond thought they were in Scripture times . 2. Such as have one Diocesan Governour , or Superintendent over many inferior Churches , and their Pastors . 3. Such as have one only Bishop or Pastor , having no other true Pastor , Elder , Church-Ruler , or Presbyter of Christs Institution under him ; but Chappels which have no such Ruler or Pastor . V. The first sort of Diocesans we have now nothing to do with . The second sort is controverible , some holding it sinful , some lawful , and some ( and very many ) to be of Divine Institution , as Successors of the Apostles , not in the extraordinaries , but in the ordinary parts of their Office : Christ having made an imparity ( or a superiority of some over others ) they think that to say without proof , that he changed that order in one Age , is 1. to charge him with mutability and levity . 2. And to diminish from his Law ( which hath a Curse . ) The third sort of Diocesans , is either 1. of a Diocess ( like a great Parish with Chappels ) so small that one Pastor may possibly oversee it . ( This is tollerable , when more cannot be had ; and when they can , it hurts only ●he well-being of the Church ) : Or 2. it is of a Diocess so great as that one man cannot do what is essential to a Pastor , and so it is undone : This nullifieth that Species of Churches which is of Christs Institution . VI. A particular Church of Christs Institution of the lowest political order , is , [ A competent number of Neighbour-Christians , who by Christs appointment , and their own exprest consent , are associated with one or more Past●● for the right worshipping of God in publick , and the Edification of the Members , by the exercise of the said Pastoral Office , and their mutual Duties to God , to their Pastors , and each others , for the welfare of the Society , and the pleasing and glorifying of God. ] VII . The Pastoral Office as over this first or lowest Church , and as it is in unfixed Ministers , related yet to no one Church more than another , differeth but as the subject matter ( or object ) of their charge doth differ , and not in the fundamental Power or Order . VIII . This Pastoral Office is essentially Ministerial to Christ as the Prophet , Priest , and King of his Church . 1. A Power to Teach . 2. To Lead in Worship . 3. To Guide by the Keys of Reception , Admonition , Exclusion and Restoration . IX . It is not Inconsistent with this Pastoral Office to be Governed by Superiors , whether Magistrates , or Ecclesiasticks ( as others were by Apostles , and by Timothy , Titus , &c. ) Therefore every limitation , restraint , rebuke , or punishment , for Mal-administration , nullifieth not the Office , nor yet allowing an appeal to Superiors . X. To hinder a Pastor from forcible excluding men from Church or Sacrament , and allow him only to do it by Application of Gods word , is agreeable to his Office. XI . It is Power and Obligation to exercise , and not the present actual Exercise , that is essential to the Office in the fundamental Relation : But should the Non-exercise be total and stated , it would not make up a Church in act ; No more than a mere Power to Teach , will make a School in act . XII . He that hath the entire Power , and statedly exerciseth but one part of it , statedly omitting an essential part , may be in Order an empowred Minister ; but his Society is but a half Church : But if it be only an Integral part that he omits , it may be a true Church , tho faulty ; or if it be an essential part , and not statedly , but only by some present impedition . XIII . The name of Church Pastor and Diocesan , being formally Relative in signification , are really divers things , as the Fundamentum , Relate , Correlate , and Terminus , are divers . They are therefore considerable . I. As instituted and described by Christ . II. As understood , described and consented to by sound Orthodox Pastors and People . III. As described by laws and Canons . IV. As esteemed and described by many mistaking Bishops , Clergy and People , some Super-Conformists , and some Misjudging , that the Law saith as they : The word as to these senses is equivocal . XIV . Christs Institution went before mens Corruption ; and is to be held to by all Christians , who own him to be the Maker and Ruler of his own Church : And no man hath Power to null his Institution , nor to warrant 〈◊〉 to make his Church another thing . XV. By Christs Institution every Ministerial Elder and Pastor hath Power . 1. To Teach the People . 2. To Lead them in Worship . 3. To Receive by Baptism , and to Communion , or to refuse on just cause ( tho under Government ) as aforesaid : ( The whole Office I have copiously described in my Universal Concord , 24. years ago . ) XVI . The Parishes that have capable Christians and Ministers consented to by their sumbmission , are such true Churches ; their Neighbourhood and Christianity making them capable matter . Not that a man is of the Church , because he is in the Parish ( Atheists , Infidels , Sadduces , Hereticks and Refusers , may dwell there , ( Its thought that of 60000. that dwell in one London Parish , 10000 Communicate not , and so 40000 or 50000 , are not of that Church ) but those that are capable Consenters , and Communicants . XVII . This sort of Churches we were in Possession of 166● , and till August 24. 1662. And of 9000 Ministers , then 2000 only were put out , the other 7000 continuing in . And of those that were put out , some few gathered part of their old Flock into private Churches , renouncing , and disswading them from the publick : Most gathered no such Churches , but help their old People as they could , not drawing them from the Parish Churches , till the time of the Kings Licences for more open Ministry . Many led them to the Parish Churches , and took themselves for fellow Pastors , with the publick Ministers , and lived in Love and Communion with them . The People were not by the new Law cast out with the Ministers . Most of the people in the 2000 Parishes of the ejected , and almost all in the other 7000 ▪ who before communicated , or were ca●able of it , continuing the Parish Communion . And so are Churches , if they were so before . XVIII . The generality of the former Protestant Bishops , and Clergy , took the Parish Rectors to be true Pastors of the Parish Churche● , as Bishop Usher proved them : The Church of England is confessed to be of this mind , before the Wars . It is not certain that Arch-Bishop Laud thought otherwise : If he did , Hey●n names but five that joyned with him in his main cause , of whom Mountague , if not more , were for the contrary cause in this point . XIX . They then took a Curate to be a Pastor , and to have all that is essential to the Presbyters Office ; And to be a Presbyter and no Pastor , is a Contradi●tion in the sense of Protestants and Papists , except what is said for Lay-E●ders . In France they call all their Parish-Pastors , Curates ; the word sig●ifieth the Curam animarum . XX. No Law since 166● . hath changed any essentials of the Parish-Pastors O●●nce ( and so none hath nulled it ) from what it was in 1640. They that affirm the contrary , must prove it . The Law before , subjected Parish-Pastors to Diocesans : It imposed the Oath of Canonical Obedience , and a promise of the same in Ordination ; It was the same to the Ecclesiastical Courts as now . If any pretend to such singular skill in Law , as to say that there was no Law for the Book of Ordination , which made the ordained to Covenant to obey their Ordinaries , nor any Law for the Canons , I hope he will have more reason than to lay the controversie about Separation on his odd conceit , when all the People in England have in the days of the four last Soveraigns , been forced to submit to these as Legal ; and no such pretender could at any time deliver them . Books have been written , and Pleas used against submitting to the Courts that declared not that they held their Authority from the King ; but the Judges still over-ruled it against them And they that profest to hold it from the King , did many , if not most , mean but the Liberty of publick exercising it , as the Ministry is held under him , or the adjunct Cogent Power , or the Circa sacra . XXI . The Law enableth the Parish-Minister to receive into the Church by Baptism , ( tho under canonical Prescripts , which Dissenters much dislike ) , and to Catechize Youth , and certifie their fi●ness for Confirmation , before they Communicate : It bindeth them to reject all from Communion , who are not confirmed , or at least are not ready and desirous of it ; it tells us who is to be taken for ready , Those that have learnt the Catechism , and solemnly own their Baptismal Covenant . The Pastor hereby hath Power to try all the unconfirmed , whether they are thus ready or not . The Canon requireth him to deny Communion to all that live in any scandalous Sin : The Law and Canon bid him to instruct the Congregation , to lead them in publick Worship , and in the Name of Christ to Reprove , Admonish , Comfort , Administer the Lord Supper , Visit the Sick with Instruction and Prayers . All which , with the aforesaid Power of judging who shall be Communicants , is full as much as is Essential to a Parish-Pastor . Solemnly to pronounce them Excommunicate , beside refusing Communion , is not Essential . If it were , they have Power to do it , after the Bishops Sentence . If it were Essential to do it as ungoverned , or finally , or without appeal , then Apostolick , yea and Magistrates Government would null the Pastors Office. XXII . The altering some words in Ordination , and putting out the name [ Pastors ] from most places in the Litturgy , where they were applied to Parish-Ministers , is no change at all of the Office , much less of its essence . It takes no Power from them , which they had : But it was done by the interest of some men , who thought that Presbyters , who swore the three Kingdoms against Bishops , had taken too much upon them , and in opposition they endeavoured to keep them under , and so would diminish their pretences for Parity . But this changeth not the Species of the Office. And it s known who these men were : And tho some of them are of Opinion , that Diocesan Bishops only may regularly confer Ordination , and exercise Jurisdiction over the Clergy , and that meer Presbyter Ordination with us is null . 1. These same men had a chief hand in debating and wording the Kings Declarations October , 1661. Concerning Ecclesiastical Affairs , and therein the King after debates with Lords and Bishops , distinguisheth the meer Pastoral preswasive Power , from the Episcopal ( which is Cogent ) and alloweth the Rural Deans with the Presbyters of his Deanry , to exercise the said Pastoral perswasive Power , and the other Pastors also to joyn with the Bishops . And the Law still calls them Rectors : The Liturgy yet calls them Past●rs ; the word Pastors , being a Metaphor , they take to be general , Bish●ps and Priests being with them two Orders of Pastors . Therefore because it doth not distinguish them , they usually leave it out , and put sometime Bishops and Curates , and sometime Bishops , Priests and Deacons : The common description of a Bishop by them , is , that he hath the sole Power of presiding and determining in Ordination , and Jurisdiction , s●ne quo non , oft alledging Jeroms , Quid facit Episcopus , quod non facit Presbyter excepta Ordinatione . And yet the Law still binds them , not to ordain without Presbyters Imposition of hands with them . And Arch-Deacons and Presbyters , Surrogates , &c. Excommunicate . And in the Ember-week , they are every day to pray by the Liturgy . [ So guide and govern the minds of thy Servants , the Bishops and Pastors of thy Fl●ck , that they may lay hands suddenly on no man. ] Where Bishops and Pastors cannot be taken for Synonyma , whilst they speak of all that lay on hands . And they distinguish not [ Pastors and Curates ] where they change the words , but [ Bishops and Curates . ] But nothing more proveth what I say , than that the Law yet bindeth all Priests to all that is essential to an Episcopus Gregis , a Pastor of a particular Church ; see the Exhort . in Ord. of Priests , [ We exhort you in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ , that you have in remembrance , into how high a dignity , and to how weighty an office and charge ye are called ; that is to say , to be Messengers , Watchmen , and Stewards of the L●rd , to teach and to premonish , to feed and provide for the Lords Family , to seek for Christs Sheep , that are dispersed abroad , and for his Children , who are in the midst of this naughty world , that they may be saved by Christ for ever ; have always therefore printed in your remembrance , how great a treasure is committed to your charge , for they are the sheep of Christ , which he bought , &c. The Church and Congregation whom you must serve is his Spouse and his Body ; and if it shall happen , the same Church , or any member thereof to take any hurt or hindrance by reason of your negligence , ye know the greatness of the fault , and the h●rrible punishment that will ensue : Wherefore consider with your selves the end of your ministry towards the children of God , towards the Spouse and body of Christ , and see that you never cease your labour , your care and dilig●nce , till you have done all that lieth in you according to your bounden duty , to bring all such as are or shall be committed to your charge , to that agreement in the fai●h and knowledg of God , and that ripeness and perfectness of age in Christ , that there be no place left among you , either for error in Religion , or viciousness of life : Forasmuch then as your office is both of so great excellency , and of so great difficulty , ye see with how great care and study ye ought to a●ply your selves , as well that ye may shew your selves dutiful and thankful to the Lord , who hath placed you in so high a dignity , as also to beware that neither you your selves offend , nor be occasions that others offend . And after their Covenant to preach according to the Scripture , they promise [ to give faithful diligence , to administer the Doctrine , Sacraments , and Discipline of Christ as the Lord hath commanded , and as this Church and Realm hath received the same , according to the Commandments of God : So that you may teach the people committed to your care and charge with all diligence to keep and observe the same . Here Doctrine , Sacraments , and Discipline , are their Office-works : Gods Commandments are their Rule , tho on supposition that this Realm hath received them according to his Commandments . Next they covenant with all faithful diligence to banish all erroneous and strange doctrines contrary to Gods word , and to use both PUBLICK and PRIVATE Monitions and Exhortations , as well to the sick as to the whole , within your cures , as need shall require , and occasion shall be given : And [ to keep quietness , Peace and Love among all Christian people , and especially among them that are or shall be committed to their charge . All this is setled by Law , and all Ministers subscribe to it : And is not this enough to the essence of a Pastors office ? What is the Reason ? The next promise is [ Reverently to obey their Ordinary , and other chief Ministers , to whom is committed the charge and government of them , following with a glad mind and will , their godly admonitions , and submitting themselves to their godly judgments . This shews that , 1. It is not a strict Divine Right that is meant over them ; for all Ordinaries , and other chief Ministers , pretend not to such right . 2. If others superiority null their office , then none is in office but the King : Was Di●trep●es no Minister , because John threatned him as his superior ? It 's liker he had been none for resisting John , of the two : Were all degraded that obeyed the Apostles ? If it should be an error , that a Parochial Bishop is a Governor over his junior-Presbyters , or a Diocesan over both ; that nulleth not the Presbyters office : The Presbyterians give a Classis or Synod as much power over particular Churches , as the Episcopal give to Diocesans ; ( or near ) : And yet few Separatists have thence concluded that they have no particular Churches , or that this nulleth them ; contrarily , ab est tertii adjecti ad est secundi valet argumentum ; Parish Churches are govern'd Churches subject to superiors ; ergo , they are Churches . And the Law calls them Churches , 〈◊〉 , it taketh them for Churches , ( while it taketh no essential from them ) . XXIII . There are some particular Drs. in England indeed , who say that There is no Church without a Bishop of its own , and 〈◊〉 Epi●c●pus , ibi Ecclesia , and that Ecclesia est pl●●s Ep●s●●● adu●ata , and that our Parish Ministers are no Bishops , and that their sole Ordinations are nullities ; and consequently it would follow , that their Parish Churches are truly but parts of a Church infimae specie● : And because these men speak against Reordination , and yet require those to be ordained again , who were here ordained by mere Presbyters , therefore it seemeth plain , that they take the former for no true Ordination : These men I have oft confuted , especially in my Treatise of Episcopacy : And hence some gather , that I charge this error on all the Church of England , and take the Law and Clergy to nullifie the Parish-Ministry and Churches : Therefore I am specially obliged to answer such misconcluders , lest they make my writings a means of deceit against my sence , and against my will : for so unhappy is the controversal world , even of men of Worth and Name , that if I do but say that two is less than three , and that four is more than three , they fear not to say , that I contradict my self , and R. is against B. and sometimes I speak for , and sometimes against the same cause ; and these being ordinary Disputers and Church-guides , What hope have the Christian Flocks of Unity and Peace , but by such mens ceasing their disputes ? Here therefore it must be noted , 1. That the men of this opinion are not to be called , The Church of England . The most of the Bishops and Clergy formerly were against them , Dr. Hammond , and Bishop Gunning , and a few more , were almost the first that seemed to go so far . 2. And yet even these few do usually except the case of necessity , and of the forreign churches , ( as Dr. Sherlock hath lately done at large ) so that then they cannot take their Episcopal ordination received , to be essential to the Priesthood . 3. And these men themselves call our Parish societies , Parish Churches , and deny not the Presbyters to be Episcopi Gregis , and to have a pastoral care of the peoples souls , for they own the Liturgy , Ordination , and other writings of the Church , which assert it . 4. Their opposition to Presbytery hath carried them to appropriate the name Bis●op to the Diocesans , but by it they mean only a Bishop over Presbyters , having the power to ordain and depose them , and to ●● be chief in governing all the flocks ; But the controversie de nomine , and de re are not the same : This denieth not all Pastoral Episcopacy in Presbyters over the flocks under them : That these men by running into extreams do ill , many have written to prove : But maiming the Parish Ministry , or too much limiting it , is not nullifying it . 5. Let it be considered , that even the Separatists say not that the Power of Ordination is essential to Pastors : Some of them take Pastors unordained , only elected and received with prayer : Some take men ordained by n●ighbour Pastors , that have no power over them : Some take men ordained by Bishops , some by Magistrates : And Jurisdiction over n●ighbour Pastors I am sure the Separatists will say belongs neither to the being or well being of a Pastor . If then it be the Power of Ordaining , and of Jurisdiction over other Pastors , which the Diocesans deny the Parish Pastors , the● deny them nothing hereby essential to thei● office . All that can with any colour be said , is , that the Law now seems to be on these mens side , by requiring Reordination . But , 1. The Law-makers profess to establish the Church , and not to change it to another thing . 2. The Law-makers were not all of one mind in the Reasons of their Laws ; nor had all studied these kind of controversies : Many of them , and of the Clergy to this day , say that it is not a proper ordination that they require , but the giving them Authority to exercise their Ministry in England , and the decision of a doubtful case : Part of the Church taketh them for true Ministers that were ordained by Presbyters , and part do not ; and that the Congregations may not divide , they say they require this like Baptizing after a doubtful Baptism [ If thou art not baptized , I baptize thee . ] I am against this : But this proveth not that they take a Presbyter for no Pastor : Yea tho they should take his ordaining others to be a nullity ; Ordaining not being essential to him . XXIV . The Act of Uniformity , or the like Law , cannot make the Church no Church , or of another species , than 1. As it is esteemed by God and his Law. 2. Or as it is esteemed by the greater part of the Christian Clergy and Laity : Tho the Law should speak as the foresaid odd innovators do . For , 1. All Christians profess that Christ is the only just Institutor of the essentials of his own Churches : All Christians profess Communion with them as Churches of Christs making by his Law : The present Church of England professeth this in many books ; it bindeth all Ministers to hold to Scripture sufficiency , and use Discipiine as well as Doctrine and Worship , as Christ commandeth : It openly holdeth all Laws and Canons about Church essentials , yea and integrals , to be void and null that are against the Sacred Scriptures , and Law of God : There is no Power but of God : God hath given no power to nullifie his institutions . 2. All true Christians who consent to a Parish Minister , and attend on his Ministry , and join in the Assemblies , openly profess to own him first as a Minister of Christ , and to join in Worship and Communion of the church as prescibed by Christ , which no man hath power to overthrow . 3. The Parliament and Convocations , and Bishops and Clergy , all confess that they have no power to overthrow the Church essentials or offices of Christs Institution : They have not revoked the Church Writings in which all this is oft professed : They confess that if their Laws mistake and do contrary , they bind us not : They never openly professed a war against God or Jesus Christ : What if one Dr. S. Parker , make Christ subject to the King in his Kingdom ; he is not the Kingdom , nor the Church of England : For all his words they never made any Law to command Christ , or to punish him : They never cited him to appear before them , nor did any penal execution on his Person , which Government implieth . They bow at his name , and profess subjection to him . Therefore if the law had by error said any thing inconsistent with the essence of Churches and Ministry , it had not been obligatory to Pastors or people ▪ but they ought still to take Churches and Pastors to be what Christ hath made them , and described them to be . XXV . Suppose a Law should say , All families shall be so under Diocesans as to have no power but from them , and all shall subscribe to this . This doth not null family-power and society as instituted by God , nor make it a sin to live in Families , nor dissolve them all ; But all must continue in Families as inst●tuted by God : And if any subscribe to this , it will not make it a sin in all Wives , Children and Servants to live in those families . If the Law had said , All Schools in England shall be essentially subject to Diocesans , must we therefore have had no more Schools ? Or if the School-master subscribe to them , is it a sin to be his Scholar ? If the Law should say , All Christians shall choose their own Pastors , and meet and pray and preach as they please , but only in essential subjection to Diocesans , must all therefore give over Church Communion ? If the Law had said , All the Parish-Assemblies in England shall henceforth be essentially subject to the Pope , or a forreign Council , We must not therefore have forborn all such Assembling , but have kept to the state and duty appointed us by Christ . XXVI . Here the mistaking Opponents say , 1. That indeed de jure none can change the Essence of Christs Ministry and Churches , but de facto they may , and have done . Ans . What is meant by [ changing it , de facto ? ] Have they de facto , nulled Christs Power , Law ▪ or Offices and Churches ? What ? Nulled it by a Nullity of pretended Authority , and overcome his Power without Power ? De jure and de facto , to be a true Church or Pastor , is all one Christ made true ones : De facto they cannot unmake them , but by destroying matter or form , because they cannot do it de jure : They have destroyed neither matter or form of such parish churches as I plead for , and which Christ instituted ; for they had not power to do it : Indeed they may de facto make other sort of Churches and Ministers to themselves , ( tho not de jure ) but not to us ▪ who stick to Christs institutions . XXVII . But say they , We confess , if the Law did bid all assemblies in England meet in dependance on Diocesans , private and publick ; this would not alter the species of our separate Churches , because man hath not power , and we consent not . Ans . Very good . And I pray you what alters the case , as to the Parish-Churches ? Is it that they have Steeples and Bells , or that they have Tythes ? It 's the Calamity of Dissenters , that they either cannot consider , or can feel no strength in the plainest truth that is said against them ; but thoughts and sense run all one way , which they think right . XXVIII . Obj. But say they , Constitutive and Declaritive Laws must be distinguished . They can but declare our Meetings to be Diocesan , which is false ▪ 〈…〉 the Parish-Meetings such . Ans . 1. Remember that declaring the Parish-Churches to be such , doth no more constitute them such , than yours : Why then talk you so much of the words of Bishops , and Clergy , and Books , as if their declarations made them such ? 2. But how doth a Law constitute one ( the Parochial ) to be Diocesan , ( or null ) , more than your separate meetings , if by a Law of toleration it should say the same of them ? The truth is , They are such to consenters that judg them such : But they constitute them not such to any that consent not to such a constitution , but hold to Christs . XXIX . But it is said , that our thoughts alter not constitutions , they are our own immanent acts , that nihil ponunt in esse ; and therefore the Pastors and Churches will be what Law maketh them , whatever we think . Ans . Are not Churches formally relative societies ; what maketh them such , but thoughts and wills of men expressed ? Gods mind exprest in his Institutions is his premised consent ; our consequent obedient consent maketh Christians , Pastors , and Churches : If a Law cannot make the Parish consent to null Christs Officers and Churches , it doth not null them to them . If a Law say , All marriages shall be void unless the Bishop remarry them : This maketh them not void to any that consent not , but say , we stand to the valid marriage we had What doth another mans consent do to constitute me a Christian or Church-member ( except Parents for Infants ) ? And if my thoughts and consent put nothng in esse , then the thoughts and consents of the conforming Clergy alters not their Churches ; and what then is that constituting cause you talk of ? Is it only the law ? for shame say not so ; Gods own Law as commanding us to be Christians , Pastors or Churches , maketh us not such , without consent : And can mans Law both null Gods Law , and make us of what species it doth but bid us be , without our consent ? XXX . But here our Disputants think they expose me to derision : What ? Do I intimate that one and the same Congregation , may be two Churches of different species ? Ans . I think to be such by open profession , is disorderly and unusual : But I think he that denieth this , is unfit to deride the ignorance of another . 1. If the people in one Kingdom may be , in specie , two Kingdoms , the people of one Assembly may be two Churches ; but Bishop Bedle in his printed Letter said , that Ireland was then two Kingdoms , the King being Sovereign to some , and the Pope to other : And I think Hungary is so now , between the Emperor and Turks . 2. When Paul ordinarily held his assemblies in the Jewish Synagogues , where half were Infidels , and half Christians , ( before he separated his Christians from them ) I think they were two Churches . 3. If Independents had leave to meet in the Parish churches , where the Parish Minister , and their own Minister should preach by turns , and the Parish only heard theirs as a lay preacher , or none of their Pastor , and so they heard the Parish Preachers ; I doubt not , but they would be distinct church ▪ If one Parish church have two Pastors , and one of them be professedly for an essential subjection to the Pope , and the other against it , and half the people of one mind , and half of the other , I think they are two Churches in one place . If those Anabaptists who take none but the re-baptized for Church-members , should with their Pastors join with Independents in worship , tho esteeming them no churches , I suppose you think they would be distinct churches in one place . But I think none of this is the case of the churches that I join with ; for I suppose they null not Christs species of Ministers to themselves or me . But if they did it to themselves , that would not do it to me . XXXI . Obj. But one and the same Minister cannot be of two species , and therefore relation to him cannot constitute distinct Churches . Ans . 1. One and the same man cannot be a Minister of Christ , and no Minister of Christ ; so much is true , nor of any two inconsistent species : But if you will call any circumstantial difference a distinct species , that will no● hinder the consistence : The same man may be Christs Minister , and the Kings Chaplain , or a Dean , or Pre●endary , or a Diocesan Bishop , or Subject to a Diocesan , such Bishops as Chrysostom , Augustine , Ambrose , 〈◊〉 , Parke● , Grindal , Ush●r , Davenant , &c and their Chaplains did not cease to be Christs Ministers . 2 Relation to one of these men may make two sorts of consistent churche● , if the same man have a Parish and a Diocess , as the German superintendents have , and many other Bishops ; the warrantableness we are not now disputing . 3. Yea , one and the same Parish Minister may be Pastor of two Churches in one Assembly : If he openly profess himself Orthodox , the people that so own him are a church ; and if he secretly to a party of them profess himself an Anabaptist , or a Papist , and they unite with him as such , they are another church , such as it is ; Vespae habent favos , & marcionitae ecclesias : Tertul. XXXII . Obj. But the grand Objection is , No man can be a Pastor of Christ against his will : The Parish Ministers have all by conforming , renounced the essence of the Christian Ministry , and subscribed and sworn this renunciat●● by subjecting themselves to Diocesans , and swearing never to endeavour any alteration of the Diocesan Government , and the Vestries who represent the churches , have sworn the same ; and you have of●en said that the Diocesan form of Government , 1. Deposeth the Parish Bishops , and maimeth the Ministry . 2. Dep●seth the Parish Churches . 3. And maketh Parish Discipline impossible . Ans . It is impossible to write that , which no man can misunderstand , and make an ill use of . I have oft told you , 1. That I am in doubt , whether Arch-Bishops as Successors of the Apostles , only in the ordinary continued part of their Office , be jure divino , or not . 2. That Congrational Bishops over Presbyters , being ejusdem ordinis , are an old venerable and lawful humane Institution . 3. That Congregational Bishops , only over the Laity , are all Presbyters as such , and of Christs Institution . 4. Hereupon I have oft distinguished Diocesans into two sorts . 1. Those that are but the Governors of true particular Churches , that depose them not , but Rule them by the word perswasively : These are called Bishops , being really Arch-Bishops : These I never charged of the Consequents forenamed : And if the King make them Cogent Magistrates also , I will obey them . I take the judgment of the Church of England manifest in Ordination , Liturgy , Articles , &c. to be for such Diocesans only , tho I vastly dissent from many things in the Canons by which , and the Mode in which some exercise their Government . 2. The other sort is the Innovators form of Diocesan Government , which hold that there is no Church without a Bishop , and no Bishop but Diocesans , ( either Bishop of Laity or Presbyters ) and so that the Parish Churches are no Churches , but part of the lowest sort of true Political Churches : These I take to be Super-conformists , yea Nonconformists , and Dissenters from the Church of England , tho they may strive to get the name of the Church to themselves . Now , what I say of these Innovating Nonconformists , and their designs and attempts , our mistaking Separatists say , I speak of the Laegal Church frame , and so of all the Bishops and Parish-Churches . And I see no hope of delivering the Church of God from the trouble of incogitant confident erroneous Dissenters , that are not able to distinguish . XXXIII . I further answer this great Objection ( being concerned in Consc●ence to do it , when men father their mistakes and Separation on me . ) 1. The Parish-Ministers that I joyn with , ( and I think the most that ever I knew ) have not ( that I know of ) renounced any thing essential to a Parish-Pastor : I before said , Ordination and Jurisdiction over Presbyters or other Churches , is no part of its essence . To be obedient to a Diocesan , is no such Renunciation . Therefore it is no such Renunciation to promise to obey them in lawful things , subordinate to obeying Christ . If it prove a mistake in them , and that they owe no such Obedience , every such mistake doth not degrade them . He that said , that ( he that will be greatest , shall be servant of all ) thought not that to obey an equal , did null the Ministry . Nor he that said , Be su●ject one to another . Christ and Peter paid tribute to avoid offence , tho the Children be free . But what if a man be in doubt , whether such Obedience be not his Duty : Is it not the safer side much more if he verily think it his Duty ? 2. To take Diocesans to be Jure Divino , is said by some to be destructive of the Pastoral Office , and Churches , and a change of the English Church-Government . But it 's error . For 1. It is not the Destructive Diocesan Government , which acknowledg no Church and Pastor under them , that those in question consent to ; but the Governing Diocesan , who ruleth subject Pastors and Churches . 2. This Question of Divine right , is threefold . 1. Of that which by D●●ire right is necessary , ad esse . 2. Of that which is by Divine right , best and m●st elegible , or needful , ad melius esse . 3. That which is by right of Divine Concession lawful , but not necessary . The Church of England never determined , which of these was the Diocesans Case : All Conformists judged it Lawful ; multitudes judged it Better than other forms : Many judged it necessary when it might be had . But no Law determined for any of these alone . Unless you will say , the Preface to the Book of Ordination doth it , by saying [ It is evident to all men diligently reading holy Scripture , and Ancient Authors , that from the Apostles time , there have been these Orders of Ministers in Christs Church , Bishops , Priests , and Deacons . Which Offices were evermore had in such Reverend Estimation , &c. ] Here some say , That the Church of England took not these for three distinct Orders before 1640 , but now : Therefore by the word [ these Orders ] is meant only two . Ans . At this rate , he must have the bette● , whom the hearer best trusteth , whatever he say : If [ these Orders of Ministers , Bishops , Priests , and Deacons , ] speak not three Orders , I cannot understand them . Here note partiality ; the same that refuse to subscribe them , because they speak three Orders ; yet say , they speak but two ] when they argue that Church-Government is changed 1662 , from what it was 1640. Indeed Aelfricks Laws in Spelman , make Bishops and Priests the same Order , and so do a great part of Schoolmen and other Papists ; but the English Bishops and Clergy were some of one mind , and some of another about it , and determined it not . Unless this Preface be a Determination , the Name [ Order and Office ] being both used . And ( to instance in no other ) Saravia ( tho no English man , yet of the Church of England ) wrote more strongly almost than any that I ever read , for Diocesan Episcopacy ( against Beza , &c. ) and that upon this ground of Divine right , that they succeeded the Apostles , and such as Timothy , Titus , &c. in the Government of many Churches . ( And the Kings Divines at the Isle of White went all on that Ground ) . To say then , that to plead a Divine right for them , is new , is to contradict large Historical Evidences . And were it true , that this had been never before Imposed or Subscribed ; surely it is not an Opinion of the Divine right of governing of many Churches , that renounceth the being of those Churches ; it asserteth them to be by Divine right . For that which is not , is not governable . Non entis , non sunt accidentia . But where and how hath the Law or Church altered the case since 1640. These words were in the Book of Ordination before , and I know of none plainer that way since . It s destructive Diocesan Government , which renounceth the Government of any subject Churches , but of one only , and of any Pastors that I argue against , and not Governours of such Churches . XXXIV . But it 's objected , That they swear [ not to endeavour any alteration of Church-Government ; therefore they renounce the Pastoral Office , because the present Government excludeth it . Ans . 1. This is to dictate , and not to prove : The Diocesan Government hampered and fettered it by the Canons in the time of Whitgift and Bancroft , but null'd it not : He that reads the Canons , or knows the Church , and thinks that it's Government hath no need of Amendment , is far from my mind : But governing is not nullifying . 2. It is not true ( that ever I heard ) that they swear what this Objection saith : The Ministers do not swear , but subscribe it , and swear Obedience in licitis & honestis : ( And I could never learn what Law commands that Oath ) . And if it should extend to obey all the Canons , it 's that which I would be full loath to swear ; but I know no Canon that utterly nulleth the Parish-Churches and Ministers ▪ And a Justice that sweareth to execute the Laws , is not supposed thereby to justifie every Law , nor to execute any , if it should be against Gods Law , that exception being still supposed . 3. Their Subscription never to endeavour alteration , engageth them never to endeavour to destroy the Parish Churches and Ministry , and so is for them : For that would be a great alteration indeed . 4. If you should think otherwise ; yet if the Subscriber , or Swearer think himself , that it is not destructive , but governing Diocesans , that he subscribeth to ; it is not your Opinion or Exposition , that bindeth him against his own ; No , tho you were in the right , as to the Imposers sense : For , Ignorantis non est consensus . It 's unjust to face them down that they mean what they profess they do not . Ask forty Conformists , whether they think the Government which they promise not to alter , be that Diocesan form which ruleth Parish Churches and Pastors , or that which denieth their being , and I think few will profess the latter sense . 5. And suppose the worst , that any Parish-Priest were of that mind ; yea , and were really no true Pastor , as to his own acceptance with God ; he may yet be a Pastor so far true , as is necessary to the Essence of the Church , if the People know it not : For the Innocent suffer not for the guilties sin . If a man be a secret Atheist , or Heretick , or do counter●eit Ordination and Election , and really had none , and the People be deceived by him , and know it not while he possesseth the place , and doth the work ; his Baptisms and Administrations are valid to the Church , as a Church , tho not to himself and his Ministry . The Jews Church was not null , when the high Priests had no lawful call , but bought the Office of R●man Heathens . XXXV . Obj. But the Vestry swears never to endeavour any alteration . Ans . 1. The Vestry was never empowred to give the sense of the Church herein . 2. I never lived where any such things as Vestries were , but in London ; unless you will call the Ministers and Church-Wardens the Vestry . And what 's London to all England ? 3. If they are so sworn , it is as a new thing since 1661. But then they are sworn , ( whoever is for it ) never to end 〈…〉 in Popery , nor destroying Dioce●ans , but only not to alter 〈…〉 I doubt with m●re Officers than we wish continued ) 4. And whereas those that I now deal with , say , That indeed before 1640. 〈…〉 Churches and Pastors , but now it doth by 〈…〉 ; Let it be considered , that the Lawmakers are so far from professing any 〈◊〉 al●●rat●n , that it is only the Long-Parliament , and the 〈◊〉 Alterati●● , that they complain'd of ; and therefore swea● Corporations , Vestries , Militia , Nonconformists ( by the Oxford Oath ) and engage all Conformists never to endeavour any alteration So that they thought that it was the old Government that they setled . And now all this great part of the whole Kingdom is sworn , as I said , against Popery and foreign Jurisdiction , against Patriarchs , and against putting down parish churches and pastors , that they will never endeavour it ( by consent or execution of any mens commands ) . The alterations made before these oaths , were not essential . XXXI . I add one more argument , That owning subjection to governing Diocesans , as such , nulleth not the su●ject Churches and Pastors ; else by parity of Reason , Subjection● to Arch-Bishops would null the Diocesan Churches and Bishops , which it doth not do ; nor do you think it doth ; yea , tho all Diocesans solemnly promise to obey their Arch-Bishops in their Consecration . XXXII . If you do know of any Minister that is for destructive Diocesans , that will not nullifie the Offices of all the rest , that never were of that mind or consent : Yea , if the Law so meant ( as you say , but prove not ) you know how commonly Conformists say , that the meaning of the Subscription and Oaths , is only against [ Seditious or unlawful sorts of endeavour to alter . ] Be this true or false , it proveth that those men consent not contrary to their sense of the Subscription , and so renounce not their Churches . XXXIII . Indeed the new Laws have made Ministerial Conformity much harder than it was before 164● . And also Lay Conformity with u● the Church-do●rs , by the aforesaid Oaths ; and also Lay Conformity within the Church seemeth very hard in some particular Offices , especially Baptismal Circumstances . But I think the ordinary Communion in the Liturgy , is better than it was before : For 1. The ●pistles and Gospels are used after the new Translation , which were used after the old . 2. Divers Collects have some mistakes changed [ As on this day ] at Easter , Whitsuntide , when it was not on that day . 3. The Minister is newly enabled and required to keep all from the Sacrament , who are not ready to be confirmed , ( that is , that are not Catechized , and ready understandingly , to renew their baptismal Covenant ) which is a very great addition of power : And if any practise it not , that 's his fault , and a neglect of execution of his power ; and when he puts scandalous Sinners from the Sacrament , he may say , [ As a Minister of Christ and Rector of this Church , I judg you unmeet for its Communion , and forbid it you . ] And no more is essential to his Church Discipline in Excommunication . It 's too true , that the Exercise of this it clog'd with further Prosecution by him , in the Chancellors Court , which I think few will undertake . And it 's true , that such Ministers are required to publish the Excommunications of Lay-men , past in the Bishops names , tho it be according to such Canons , as the 6 th , 7 th , 8 th , &c. But a man in Fetters , is a man : It changed not the Pastoral Office , when Heathen Emperors persecuted it , and when such Christian Emperors , as Anastasius , Zeno , Basilicus , Theodosius 2d . Constantius , Valens , &c. vexed or cast out those that were not of their Opinions . It nulleth not the Office in Switzerland to have none but the Magistrates Discipline . XXXIV . The Objectors grant , that , If any Parish-Church shall by Minister and People consenting , be formed according to the Rules of the Gospel , they are true Churches , tho the Law should be against them , or command the contrary . Ans . 1. Much more then , if the Law be for all that is essential . 2. And doth not this say as much as I am pleading for ? Name me , if you can , any thing essential , which all Ministers promise not at Ordination ? If any after renounce it , the crime is personal : Prove it before you say it , and forsake him , and charge not his fault on others . I think you are not of their minds , that say , [ The Law bindeth every Subscriber and Swearer to the sense of the Imposers , when he took it through mistake in another sense , because they refused to explain it ; especially , if he declared his sense : Much less doth it bind him to your sense , against his own . XXXV . But then ( say the Objectors ) such Churches are Dissenters ; as such you joyn with them , and not as setled by Law , and so it is but a Conventicle , and is excommunicated by the Canon , or you excommunicated for saying it is a Church , and joyning with it . Ans . 1. What if all this be true ? Doth it follow , that I must separate from it ? Are not your private Churches more unquestionably Excommunicate , &c. by the Canon , and yet you separate not from them ? Can you see but on one side ? 2. But your Affirmation proveth not that the Law nulleth such Ministers , or Churches , as use the Liturgy , and subscribe in the favourable sence , tho it should prove a mistake . It must first be tryed and judged to be a mistaken sense , and even where they ( strangely ) Excommunicate , ipso facto , the fact must be proved and declared by the Judg , before Priest and people are bound to Execution , ( tho the Law be loco sententiae ; the 〈◊〉 being proved and declared ) , no man is bound to do Execution on himself . 3. I would seriously advise these Brethren to think , Whether all good Christian Men and Women are bound to study the Laws of England , before they may resolve what Church to ●●mmuni●ate with ? yea , whether they must be all so well skill'd in Law , as to decide these Law-controversies , that you and I are not agreed in , and Lawyers themselves do ordinarily differ in ; that is , Whether by Law the Parish-Churches and Pastors be changed and n●lled , and Diocesses be made the only Churches , ●●simae species ? Must all forbear Communion till they are so good Lawyers ? Why may it not suffice to know Christs Law , and to profess to obey it , and to do nothing against it willingly ? He that will promise to Communicate with th● Church , but as it is established by Law , should have more skill in the Law than I have to know , how it is established ; and every Communicant hath not so much more than I. XXXVI . But ( say they ) then you are bound to av●●d s●andal , by professing openly that you Communicate 〈◊〉 a Dissenter , and not with the Church as established by Law. Ans . 1. Then I should falsly say that which I either think is otherwise , or am not resolved in . I tell you , Few can truly say this , if any . 2. What need this , when the open Profession of all Christians is , That it is a Church and Worship of Christs making , which they own and intend , and none that is against them ? And when the Articles of the Church of England , and the Ordination covenant own Scripture-sufficiency , and disclaim all that is against Gods word : Must we be supposed to renounce Religion , when we meet to profess it ? And surely for disowning any thing which the Nonconformists judg unlawful , all the Books written by them , and all the notorious sufferings in twenty two years , Ejection and Prosecution , are no obscure Notification of their Judgments , without speaking it at the Church ●oors , or before the Assemblies : Must I openly protest against Independency , Anabaptistry , or Presbytery , ( if I dissent ) before the face of their Congregations , if I will Communicate with them ? 3. But to stop your demand bef●re I Communicated in the Parish ●hurch , where I now am ; I went to the Incumbent , and told him that I would not draw him into danger , or intrude against his will : I had been ●●iled by the Kings Commission , and after by the Lord Keeper , to debate about Alteration in the Liturgy and Worship , and Discipline ; and I thought that thereby I wa● by 〈◊〉 6 , 7 , 8. ipso facto Excommunicate , but not bound to do Execution on my self ; and therefore if I were separated , it should not be my act ; but I left it to his will : He took time , and upon advice admitted me . Obj. But you must tell them that the Parish Church hath no dependance on the Bishops , but as the Kings Officers ; and that it is Independent , and then you fall not under our opposition . Ans . 1. How many Lawyers and Civilians do openly say ( as Crompton before Cosins Tables ) that all Church Government floweth from the King. And doth that satisfie you ? 2. And why must the Parish Church and Pastor needs be Independent ? Will you have no Communion with Presbyterians ? 3. And what if it be dependent on the Diocesan , as governour ( tho not as destroyer ) ? Is it any more destructive of its Essence , than to be governed by a Classis or Council ? XXXVII . As for your telling us , W●●m the Canons e●c●mmunicate , or 〈◊〉 Lay-chancellors , Officials , Surrogates , Archdeac●ns , &c. exc●mmunicate , what Oaths they imp●se , &c. tell them of it , and not us , who are not responsible for other mens deeds . It no more concerneth our cause of Parochial Lay-communion , than to tell us how bad men some Ministers are , nor so much neither : For I that willingly joyn in the Liturgy , will not willingly , if I know it , so much as seem to own the Ministry of any man that is notoriously Insufficient , Atheistical , Heretical , or so Malignant , or Wicked , as to do more hurt than good ▪ Avoid such , and spare not . XXXVIII . Obj. They want the Peoples c●nsent , and so are no Past●rs . Ans . The People shew their consent by ordinary Submission and Communion . Obj. The People must be supposed to consent to the Law , which maketh them no Pastors , but the Bishops Curates . Ans . Both the Suppositions are before confuted ; both that the People are supposed to consent to any Law against Gods , and that the Law maketh Curates to be no Pastors . XXXIX . To conclude the Objections about the Essence of Parish Churches . 1. The question is not . Whether there be not a sort of Diocesan Prelacy , which nulleth them ? 2. Nor wh●ther there be not some men in England that write and plead for such Diocesan Churches as have no true Episcop●s pregis , much less Episcopus 〈◊〉 under them , but are 〈◊〉 Bishops in that Diocess ? Nor of what number , power , or interest these men are of ( against whom I have oft written ) ? 3. But whether the Law be on their side , or against them ? for the old Diocesan Government of subordinate Pastors and Churches , is to me n●w uncertain : I did once incline most to the fi●●t sense of the Law ; but on sec●nd thoughts hope better of it , and am not Lawyer good enough to be certain 4. But if it should be so , I verily think ●●e main 〈◊〉 , of the 〈…〉 , and therefore 〈◊〉 not to renounce their P●rish ●overnment , ●ut only to use it in subordination to the Bishop . 5. And I am p●st doubt that all the Communicants of England , are neither ●ound to decide this Law-doubt , nor to understand it , nor to believe that the Law hath altered the Government . 6. And if they did believe it , they ought to keep on in Church Assemblies ▪ according to Christs Law , taking all that 's against it , as void , as long as they are put ●n no sin themselves , nor the Church notoriously renounceth its ●ssentials . 7. And if they were stated Members of other Churches ( e.g. the Gre●k , the Dutch , the French ) ; they might ●ccasionally Communicate in our Parishes transiently ( without examining the Pastors call and discipline , but judging by possession and practice ) . 8. And if they should prove no lawfully called Ministers , their Office would be valid to those that blamelesly were deceived and knew it not . 9. And if they were sure that they were no true Ministers , they may joyn with them in all Worship belonging to Lay-Christians . 10. But if they prove able , godly Ministers of Christ ( tho faulty ) setled by Law to the advantage of Religion in a Christian Kingdom , where all are commanded thus to maintain national Concord ; and the upholding those Churches , is the very National possession of the Protestant Religion , and it goeth for publick Disobedience and Scandal to forsake them , and that at a time when many forsake them too for unjust grounds , and by suffering for it , stand to unwarrantable Accusations of them , and sharply Censure those that do not as they , and oppugne Peacemakers , and all this after the old Nonconformists full Confutation of the Separatists unwarrantable way , and the doleful experience of Subversion of all sorts of Government ; by the Prosecution of such mistakes , I say , If all this should be the case , it is deeply to be considered . XL. But the most effectual hindrance , is the opinion of unlawfulness in j●yning in the Liturgy ; yet my last Objectors confess that [ It is lawful to some , and that it is n●t Communion in it , much less in all forms , which they call unlawful t● all : And the sober sort are loth to say t●at the Millions of Christians in England , and Scotland , who live where they can be in no other Churches , should rather like Atheists live without all Church-Worship and local Communion . And in gaining this , I have gained the better half of what I pleaded for . And they confess , and so do I , that publick Communion may be one mens duty , and anot●●rs sin , as circumstances vary . I confess one man may possibly live under so intollerable a Minister , as is not to be owned . And even some of the high adversaries of Nonconformists seem of this mind , and break the Canon ; and having Pastors , who they think do not heartily conf●rm , ●ut plead for Peace and Moderation ; they revile them as Trimmers , and will not Communicate wi●h them , but go out of their own Parishes ( and thousands seldom any where . Other circumstances also may vary mens cases . ●ut some Objectors at last t●ll us , that the great difference which they mean , is differe●t light : T●e ●ld Martyrs , Reformers and Nonconformists , had not so much light as we , and so it w●s not th●●r sin ; but greater light being now m●r● common , it will be a common sin to j●yn in the Liturgy ▪ Ans . 1. It is ordinary and easie for men to magnifie their own understandings ; but Gods Law was then the same as now ; and they were bound to know it ; Their ignorance might make sin less ( and stripes fewer ) but could not make it none . 2. I have many Reasons to think that it is your light that is l●ss , and the old Nonconformists and Conformists ( in this ) that was greater . 1. That is the greater light that most agreeth with Gods Word , and th● universal churches practice accordingly . 2. The writings of the old Nonconformists yet extant , give better reas●ns than the seperatists did , and therefore had clearer light . What vast difference is there in the writings of Ball , Hildersham , Am●sius , ( Manuductions ) Gifford , Paget , Bradshaw , &c. on that part , and Johnsons , Cans , Penrys , &c. on the other ? 3. The Theological writings and labours of the Nonconformists in all other points shewed , that they were men of incomparable more light than the Separatists ; and is it like that God would give men such rare light only in church ▪ communion , that had so little comparatively in the rest of Divinity ; except Ainsworth's skill in Hebrew , ( in other things by Paget laid too naked ) how few old Separatists have left any considerable fruits of great light unto the church ? Read the writings of Cartwright , Dudley Fenner , Hildersham , John Reignolds , Dod , Perkins , Bai● , Parker , Ames , Bradshaw , &c. Besides Scots ▪ and all Foreigners , such as Calvin , Beza , Zanchy , Sadeel , and hundreds more ; and compare these with the Writings of the Separatists , and judg who had greater light . 4. Since 1660. all the London Ministers , and others with them t●at offered the King to set up in the parish churches the old Liturgy with some alterations , were men ( except my self ) who shewed in their Writings and preaching ▪ as much light as the Separatists have shewed , even Brown , or John Goodwin himself , ( that wrote Prelatical Preachers are no Teachers of Christ ) : Where do they now shew greater light than others ? this boast to me deserveth pity more than confutation : Anabaptists , and others say the same , but I find much less light in them both , when I read and hear them ; tho I truly love and honour all that is good in them : If you have so much more light than we and all the Reformed churches , shew it us in other excellencies . XLI . But I must more particularly consider of this Authors Allegation of my own words against me , especially my Treatise of Episcopacy : And I do heartily thank him for calling me to review it . For , 1. I profess to write nothing which may not be amended . And 2. If mens misunderstanding turn my writings to a snare and scandal , it greatly concerneth me to remove it by explication , or by retractation of any thing that needeth it . And 1. I do find that I have incautelously given some occasion to the mistake ; for thol entituled my Book , not against Diocesan episcopacy , but against that sort of Diocesan churches , Prelacy and Government , which casteth out the Primitive church sp●cies of ●piscopacy , Ministry , and Discipline ] ; and tho to avoi● mistake , I said in the Preface , I ●ere give notice to the Reader , that whenever 〈…〉 me speak as against the English Diocesan Prelacy , I mean it as described by Cosins and Dr. Zouch , and as relating to the Et c●tera Oaths and 〈◊〉 ▪ and not in opposition to the laws of the Land ; Yet all this was not enough to avoid misunderstanding ! Indeed I took the church Government to be described and judged of by the churches own sentence , more than by the ●●w ; and I had read the said Et cetera oath and canons with the words that so it ●ught to stand , which I think could mean nothing less , than that so by Gods Law it ought to stand ; and I had read the old canons , 6 th , 7 th , and 8 th . Which ex●ommunicate , ipso facto , all men , with●ut excepting L●rds or Parliament M●n , who affirm that any thing in the church Government , by Arch-Bishops , Bishops , Deans , Arch-Deacons , and THE REST that bear office therein , is repugnant to the Word of God : And I read the canons that forbid Ordained Ministers to preach till they are further licensed by Bishops ; yea , and in the church or elsewhere so much as to expound any Doctrine or Matter , but only to r●ad Scripture and Homilies , &c. with much more like this . 3. And then I took the stated restraint of the Ministry , with Lay-chancellors , and officials decre●ive power of Excommunication , and absolution , and the foresaid Civilians denying all G●venment to Presbyters , to have been quoad exercitium quantum 〈◊〉 ; at least an overthrow of parish churches , Rectors and discipline . 4. And I thought that the Bishops and Chancellors could never have so long done all this , and ruled by these canons , if the Law had not been on their side . 5. And I thought that the Authors of the canons of 1640 being a c●nvo●a●i●n , it was to be called the Church of England : and specially when I found the most highly honoured Doctors pleading , there was no Bishop but D●●cesan , and no church without its proper Bishop . By all these inducements ( with long sad experience ) I oft speak so incautelously calling this , the English d●●●●san frame , that the Reader might easily think that I meant it was that frame that was setled by law ; whereas having read ●ryn , H●ntley , Leigh●●● , and others that deny the law to be for it , and being my self a stranger to that case of Law , I should have more fully separated the Law case from the new convocation case , and much more from the destructive Innovators case , who nullified the foreign churches , with whom it was that I disputed ; and specially considering that the canons and oath of 1640. were a●ter cashier'd by Parliament , and never since restor'd , no not by the Parliament of 1662. Upon all this , 1. I retract all words that seem to determine the case in Law , ( if any such be there ) or that by darkness tend so to the Readers error . 2. And all words that make the writings of superconformists and subver●ers , or chang●rs of the church government , or the canons of the convocation 1640 to be the sense of the Church of England , when it is said , that before its sence was otherwise and alteration is now abjured , or disowned by most of the Land ; and conformists usually profess another sense : Upon this very reason I write this short Debate to avoid the injuring of the Re●ders of my Writings , about the English Diocesan frame . XLII . The Book I animadvert on , is called , Mr. Baxters Judgment and Reasons against c●mmunicating with the Parish Assemblies as by Law r●qu●red . Ans . I am for communicating with them in the essentials of Christianity , and Communion , as the Law requireth , if I understand it , because the Law of Christ requireth it : But in whatever circumstances any law shall ●e against Christs Law , I communicate not according to such a Law. XLIII . All that he citeth out of my writings , p. 2 , 3 ▪ is against his cause , which he thought was for it , as I have proved . What he citeth § ● . the first is unproved , the second I own , and is nothing for him . XLIV . P. 5. And oft throughout , he alledgeth , that I make the Par●shes not compleat particular Churches . Ans . No wonder ; those may be true churches , that are not compleat in integrity or degree ; will you separate from all churches that are not so compleat ? I know not of any strictly compleat on earth : many true churches are incompleat as to integrals , much more as to ornament , order , and strength : And all particular churches are less compleat than the universal ; and that on earth , alas how far from compleat : Believe him not Reader , that R.B. is against your joining with all churches , which he proveth to be not compleat , yea , or to be very faulty and defective in point of ●oliness , Love , or Order of Ministers or people : But they are true churches in essentiality , tho parts of a Diocess , as that is of a Nation ; not meer parts of the lowest single Church . P. 6. § 2. What I say of suspending the power , is not nulling it in the office ; and what I say of practice by canons , and visitation Articles , is not said of Law ; much less of all the Churches and Pastors consent to them ; and what I say of misgoverning in exercise , is not said of a national profession , that so it ought to b● . P. 7. He citeth my words further against restraint of the Ministers power . But 1. That nulleth not Christs Institution of it . 2. More Power is given . As 1. To deny the Sacrament , as is said , to all that are not ready to be confirmed . 2. To deny absolution to all the sick , who do not humbly and earnestly desire it , &c. And the Power of doing it by Ministerial Application of Gods Word , is all that is properly ministerial , though they take all cogent power from us : Mans taking away our power , is but hindring the exercise quantum in se , but the Power is of Christ , which they cannot take away . P. 8. They cannot suspend our commanded act , ( but only our doing it with liberty and advantage ) : I can refuse the Sacrament to the unfit , tho it be to my trouble . P. 9. I say there are many additions to the old conformity ▪ that make the case harder to Clergy and Laity than of old : But I there maintain that none of these additions do make Parochial Communion now pleaded for , unl●wful . XLV . P. 10. He saith , If we might not endeavour to restore the old Prelacy , then not to give strength to it being restored : And ( say others ) , lest we be perjured , having sworn and covenanted against it . Ans . This needeth impartial Consideration : They say , That our covenant engagement maketh that unlawful to us , which was lawful to the old Nonconformists . But 1. Did not Gods Law make it unlawful to them , or to us before ? Then you think we covenanted to do somewhat th●t ●ods law bound us not to ; if so , it was superstition ; and is not adding our self-made vows and duties , as bad as adding Ceremonies ? 2. Yea , they then thought Brownism a sin ; and if they mistook not , we cannot by covenanting turn sin into duty . 3. Ad hominem , the Author professeth Independency : And I suppose he knoweth , that the chief of that way , did some write , to prove that the Covenant bound not ( at last ) , and some likened it to an Almanack out of date ; and some said , it was a League which was dissolved , and so bound not ; and how great a party thought that it bound them not from pulling down both King , and many Parliaments , and conquering Scotland , res ips● loqunta ●st : And even King and Parliament , Lord Spiritual , Temporal and Commons , have declared it their judgment in the Corporation Act and Declaration , which bindeth all the Corporation Officers to declare without exception , that there is no obligation on them , or any other from the Oath , called the solemn League and Covenant : It 's true indeed , that the Presbyterian Ministers , and Soldiers ▪ and People , thought that this Covenant bound them to restore the King ; and said , Let us keep our covenant , and trust God with the issue ; and G. Monks Army Officers in their address to him , glory in it , not doubting but the King would find such his best subjects ; but the Law that bindeth men to declare that there is no obligation on them or any other , tells them they did err when they thought it bound them to restore the King : Whether this be true or not , I meddle not with ; but by this you see , that there are few in the land of any party , save Presbyterians , that can charge us with Covenant breaking ( herein ) for going to the Parish Churches , without contradicting themselves or guides ; but this is but ad Hominem . 4. But what words be they in the Covenant that we violate ? did it mean , If power restore the Liturgy , and Bishops , and will suffer no other Churches , we will rather all give over all worship of God in churches , than we will join with them ? This were a wicked Oath , and could no more oblige us , than to give over all family worship ; I hope few sober men ever so sware . 5. I so little consent to the corporation declaration , that I do believe that I was bound by that vow to do as I have done in going to the Parish Churches . For 1. I am bound by it against Prophaneness , and all that 's c●ntrary to sound Doctrine and Godliness : But to forsake all publick Worship of God without necessity , is prophaneness , and c●ntrary to Godliness . 2. I am bound in my place and calling to oppose Popery ; But to tell all the Protestants in England , that they sin if they forsake not all the Parish Churches , is to pre●are them for the reception of Popery , seeing that will be the National Religion which possesseth those Parish Churches : By deserting our Garisons we shall deliver them up . 3. I am bound by it against Schism ; and I am not able to excuse it from being Schism , if under all the obligations that now lye upon us , I should by my constant avoiding the Parish Churches , even unto sufferings declare , that I take their Communion for absolutely unlawful , and so slander so many Churches of Christ , and seduce others with me into the same error and sin : This would be Schism and Covenant-breaking in me ; whatever it is in others . XLVI . Obj. But you swore against Prelacy and Liturgy , and now you strengthen them . Ans . 1. As the Covenant was made the terms or test of national Church Union , excluding all the Episcopal , who were half the Kingdom and more , I think it was a rash sinful Engine of unavoidable division : But when I took it , it was not so imposed , but offered to them that were of that mind , and I saw not then that snare . 2. I never swore against the Common-Prayer , nor against the Englsh frame of Prelacy , ( much less , all Episcopacy ( any further , than in my place and calling to endeavour Reformation according to the word of God , and the example of the best reformed churches : And this I have endeavoured to the utmost of my power , perhaps more than my accusers . And 3. There is much good in the Liturgy , Parish Order , and Government : I never did covenant against that ; and therefore the Ministers who laboured for Reformation and Concord 1660 and 1661 , thought they kept their covenant by craving some amendments , and not an abolition ; and if we did think any thing to be bad that was good , we must not be obstinate in that error ; forsaking the good which is our duty , is not the way to amend any sin or error ; avoiding Gods publick Worship , and living like Atheists ( save in private ) is not the way to amend the faults of publick Worship or Government : Praying to God for what we want , and owning the Scriptures , and Christian Religion , and communicating with Christians on lawful terms , is not encouraging any sin in church Priests or Prelates , unless men by our duty will be encouraged to sin ; and we must not forsake duty to avoid such mens encouragement : the sons of the Coal are most angry with those that come nearest to them in all things save their sin and error ; and say , those that stand afar off cannot hurt them : I do not just●fie all that is in every Assembly that I join with ; must I needs renounce Local communion with every Independent , Presbyterian , or Anabaptist church , that I dissent from , for fear of strengthning them : I covenanted as much against Schism as faulty Prelacy ; and yet if I must join with no church that is guilty of Schism , alas whither shall I go ? 4. I humbly desire you to examine , whether your way be not a breach of the covenant you plead ; not only as it advantageth Prophaneness , Popery , and Schism , but as it strengtheneth that which you say I strengthen ; he knoweth not England , who knoweth not that perceiving the error of unwarrantable separation , and the unjust accusations of the Liturgy and churches , used by very many ( besides some failings in some private churches ) hath been , and is a grand cause of encouraging too great a number , even to superconformity , and to the fierce opposition of us , and to the utmost confidence in their own way : and as you charge me more than others as drawing more to the communion of Godly Protestant Parish Ministers ( that is , to christian catholick love , peace , and communion ) : So do the Sons of the Coal , the superconformists more fiercely revile me as stopping more , than you have done from their extremities . Gods Word is a sufficient rule , keep to that , and fear not breaking any self-made laws . XLVII . Obj. But by this latitude you may join with Papists , and say , you judg of them according to Christs description . Ans . I answered this in the former book : When I joyn with any church as a church , I join with them as meeting to profess and practice christian faith and worship , their by faults I own not : But if they openly profess Idolatry or Heresie , instead of Worship and Faith , or if they meet to practice any sin which renders the whole church or worship rejected by God , I must not assemble with them , but avoid them ; which I must not do for tolerable failings , lest I avoid all the world : I say again , I will cast away my Wine or Broth for Poyson in it , which I will not do for a fly : If the church renounce Christs description in the essentials , notoriously , I will not call it a church against their own consent : But if they do it only in some Accident or Integrals , I will only disown those faults . XLVIII . Obj. But , say they , ( p. 13.14 . ) It is impossible there should be two national churches , at least in one nation ; therefore by joining with a Parish you can be no part of the national church ; tho we confess that if you join with a Parish Assembly that forms it self into a compleat single church , and the people ●onsent to take the Parish Minister for their Pastor , and the Minister should exercise the whole power of a Pastor in this Parish church , Mr. B. may hold communion with this Parish church , and not own the Diocesan constitution . Ans . Of two churches in one assembly I spake before . 1. Doth this Author think that exercise of power is as essential to a Minister as Power : Yea , that it must be the whole power that is exercised ; and so that no one is a true Pastor among the Presbyterians , when the Classis exerciseth the highest part of the Power ; nor in Helvetia , where Discipline is unexercised ; nor in England from the first Reformation : Were all the Conformists that submitted to Diocesans no Church-Pastors ? nor no Independents , whose Churches having many Pastors and Elders , no one exerciseth ( no nor hath ) more than part of the power ? Integrity and essentiality , office and exercise , are not all one . 2. All good Ministers that I know in the Parish Assemblies , do consent to the Pastoral Office , and the people love them , and shew their consent by ordinary Communion ; and they exercise all essential to the office , tho under the restraints of Government , not owning ( in consent ) destructive , but governing Diocesans , some as de jure divino , lawful ; some as best , some as necessary , many as merely impowered to a cogent Government by the King ; and doth not your concession imply , that these are true Churches ? of intolerable men I speak not . 3. What you confidently deny , is certainly true : There may be two national churches in one nation , if not three ; that is , the word is equivocal , and hath divers sences ; and it is not called national , because all persons in the nation are of it , but because that the diffused parts of the Nation own it formally in a publick national relation . 1. A Christian Kingdom as such , is by many called a national Church ; thus England is such . 2. A coalition of the most , or all the publick Ministers in a Nation in Synodical Agreements for Communion as such , is called a National Church ; such also is England . 3. The subjection of the most of the Clergy in a nation by consent to some Ecclesiastical Primate , Patriarch , or other constitutive , governing Head ( as a Bishop is in his Diocess ) may make a national Church in another sence . The same men may be of divers of these equivocal Churches ; or if part be for one form , and part for another , yet agreeing in the same ordinary , external Communion ; one part may be called national as well as the other . The question is de ●omine , the name equivocal from diversity of relations : I own , 1. A Christian Kingdom . 2. I own a national association of Parish Churches and Pastors . 3. Tho these submit to Diocesan superiority , and be parts of a Diocess , but true single Churches , I do not therefore separate from them . 4 ▪ A national Church , headed by one constitutive , pastoral Head , I disown ; call which you will the national Church . But ( saith he of his approved parish Church ) , P. 14. Such a Church a●●i●meth to it self all that past●ral p●wer that in pursuance of Canon and Statute Law , is fixed in the Bishop . Ans . Incogitantly spoken ; Do all Independents assume the power of Ordination , Jurisdiction over others , Citations , Licencing , Subspendings , Degradings , silencings , instituting , inducting , &c. which are so fixed on the Bishop : If none of this be pastoral power , then the appropriating it is no depriving parish Ministers of pastoral power ; and to be under Magistrates power nulls not the pastors . XLIX . What he saith about unlawful terms of Communion , p 21. &c. in the instances of kneeling , putting off the hat , standing up , &c. I answer , 1. The Author all along seemeth to forget , that I am not accusing him , not telling every man his duty , but only giving the Reasons of my own and such others practice : so they make a long ado , to vindicate him whose Manuscript I answered , and say , His question was only , whether it be lawful to communicate with the churches as setled by Law , and not in other respects ? When I ever told them , I meddle with none of their Questions , but my own , viz , 1. Whether I and such other do well or ill in that communion we hold with the Parish Churches ? 2. Whether all Protestants in England are bound in conscience to renounce and avoid Communion in the Liturgy with all Parish Churches and Chappels , and rather to give over all church worship ? I only gave my Reasons , why that Manuscript ( divulged and boasted of as unanswerable ) changed not my Judgment ; and I answered that in his Arguments , which went further than the question put by them , and assaulted my own assertions ; having before in my Christian Directory , and cure of Church divisions ( without naming him ) fully answered his printed Reasons , to prove it unlawful to use an imposed form or Liturgy , especially because Ministers must use their own gifts . But if any man believe that it is a sin to communicate kneeling , or standing , or sitting , unless he lye down as Christ did ; or at any time , save at a feast or supper ; or any where save in an Inn or an upper room , or with any women , or more than twelve , or if they think it sin to kneel at prayer , or be uncovered , or to sing Psalms in our Metre and Tunes , whether these men should separate from all the Churches that will not receive them in their own way , or how far they do well or ill that will not let every man do what he will , is none of the case that I have before me : It will not follow , that I must separate from a Church that bids me kneel , and be uncovered , &c. because you take it to be sin : put not your measures on all others . And here because same maketh Mr. Faldo the Author of the Vindication , which I answered , that I may so far vindicate him , as to shew , that it 's ●earce likely ; I ask , whether if Mr. Faldo did well as a pastor to keep up a church at Barn●● many years , which would not endure the singing of a psalm of praise to God , but constantly forbore it , tho his Judgment was against them ▪ ( besides that many of them were not only against Infant Baptism , but f●rther differ'd in other things ) ? was this communion more lawful or laudable than with honest parish Ministers in the Liturgy ? Did he the whole office of a pastor : What if the Bishop had forbid him to sing ●salms ? Is not the Church State more concerned in the whole congregation ▪ than in an absent Bishop ? what greater omission or defect is there in many Parish-Churches ? I again say , that I am so far of the Judgment of Hildersham , John Ball , &c. that I had rather joyn ( caeteris paribus ) in a Church that useth the Psalms , Chapters , and all the Lords-day Prayers in the Liturgy , before Sermon , than one that only giveth us one Psalm ( or none ) and a Pulpit-prayer and a Sermon without all the rest of Church Worship . L. I will conclude all with repeating a little of the Explication of my misused writings ▪ I. The pastoral Oversight of the Laity by the Elders , or Bishops of the several Flocks , is of Christs Institution , and belongs to all true Presbyters : And tho in necessity it may be done by divers transient Ministers , pro tempore , most regularly , every Church should have it s stated Pastors . II. Where such Churches are large , the work requireth many Ministers , where each one hath but part of the Charge . III. Reason and Church-consent among these , made one a President over the rest , and called him the Bishop pecularly , ( if it were in Marks days , as Hierom saith , it was in John's ) . And tho this be not essential to a Church , it is lawful , and fit ; and at last it grew to so great a Reputation and Opinion of necessity , that all Churches had such Bishops , and gave them a Negative voice , and ordained not without them , and defined Churches as essentiated by Relation to them , Ecclesia est plebs Episcopo adunata . If now such men as J.O. Mr. Nye , Dr. Goodwin , &c. should have in one Church six or seven young men of their own training up to be their Assistant-presbyters , I do not think an Independent Church would take it for any crime that he should have a Negative voice in acts of Order and Discipline , or that they should ordain Ministers therein without his Consent . IV. By degrees single Congregations increased to as many as our great Parishes that have Chappels , and tho still they communicated in the chief Church at some special times of the year ; they ordinarily met in divers places , and the Presbyters officiated some in one meeting , and some in another ; at first , whosoever the Bishop daily sent ; but after their particular Tyths or Chappels were assigned to each ; yet all together were esteemed but one Church , governed by one Bishop , and his Colledg of Presbyters . V. When they increased yet more and more , fixed Chappels were assigned to fixed Presbyters ; but not as distinct Churches , but parts of the Diocesan Church , tho at last they were larger than one Bishop and Colledg could guide , according to the first Institution . VI. Yet long every Christian City had a Bishop and Church , and every incorporate big Town , like our Corporations or Market-Towns , was called a City ( not because it had a Market , as a reverend Slanderer seigneth me to lay , but because Custom the master of Language , called all Corporations and great Towns by that name● : But at last the Bishops being loath to diminish their Jurisdiction , decreed that very small Cities should have no Bishops , ne vi●c●eat nomen Episc●pi . And in process of time in some Countries , the name 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 or City , was appropriated at the Princes pleasure to some very few Corporations , peculiarly priviledged above the rest : So that a King that would have had but one Bishop in his Kingdom ( as it 's said that all the Aba●●ian Empire hath had but one ) might have done it by calling but one Town a City . VII . Yet the People and Bishops being sensible that there was more work For a Bishop in a City-Diocess , than one could do ; in many Countries they had Rural Bishops set over P●pul●ns country Churches : And tho these were subject to the Diocesans , yet hereby the Churches were multiplied : But the Bishops soon grew jealous and weary of these Rural-Bishops , and most places put them down , and set up instead of them a kind of Itinerant visiting Presbyters , empowring all Arch-Bishops and Ach ▪ Deacons , till at last to save themselves the labour , and yet not diminish their Dominion , they set up the Courts of Lay-Chancellors , Officials , and many such Offices , besides the Arch-Deacons , Surrogates , &c. VIII , ▪ In England ( as is agreed by most Historians ▪ ) at first one Bishop had but one Church or Temple . ( And at Luindisfarne saith Bede , It was so po●● a thing , that it was a house thatcht with reeds . ) The Pastor of this one Church was to convert as many as he could in all the Countrey about him . The Heathen Country might be his Diocess , but not his Church . The converted Christians got into several Monasteries , and not into Parish-Churches . These Monasteries were partly for Society in Religious Exercise , and partly for Studies , like Schools to Educate Youth for the Ministry ▪ So that long a Diocess was only the Bishops Church with divers Monasteries . At last , Gentlemen for their convenience built and endowed Parish-Churches ; the Bishops old single Churches being called the Cathedrals : And finally , by the help of Princes , all the Land was divided into Parishes , subject to the Cathedral-Bishops , to whom Deans and Chapters were added in imitation of the old Bishops Colledg of Presbyters in every single Church . IX . When the Rural-Bishops were put down , the Presbyters power in their several Parishes was somewhat enlarged : And the Diocesses at last became so great , that the Bishops were sain to commit more of the oversight to the Presbyters : Tho they kept them under by severe Canons , Lay-Deputies , and the Cogent Sword. X. It grew then a controversie among the Papists themselves , whether the Parish Incumbents were proper Pastors , and had any Power of Government , and how much . And my Objectors confess , that they were reputed Pastors among the Papists , and that Linwood calleth them Pastors , and the Laity Oves : I have cited in Treat of Epis . ●ilesa●us , and many more that prove it . Ant. de Dom. Spalatensis , is large and full in it . Sp●lman in R. A●l●ricks Law , shews that the Bishop and Presbyter made but one of their seven Orders : A great sort of the Schoolmen say the same . Most Drs. say , That the Presbyters essentially as Sacredetes , have the power of the Keys , inf●ro interi●re ; by which they mean not , a power that must be kept secret , but that which consisteth in the perswas●v● use of Gods word on C●nfer●n●e , privately or publickly , as distinct from Magisterial and C●gent Power . And if they ●e of one Order , then if one be a Past●r , the other is so also . That they are taken , but in partem curae , is nothing against it , but for it . For equal Presbyters in one Church , have each but partem curae . The Reformation finding th●ngs in this case , determined none of the disputes , de nomine , Whether Parish Rectors shall be called ●pis●op●s Gregis , or Pastors , or Rectors , or I●cumb●nts ; but use these names promiscuously . Nor did they dispute whether the Parishes are Political Churches . But the Definition , and not the Name , is the thing now before us in debate . God hath given every such Minister the essence of a Pastoral oversight of his Flock : Men may hinder the Exercise , but can no more alter the Christian Office Power , than they can deprive a Husband of the power over his Wife . And the Diocesans at last have been necessitated to permit the essential Pastoral power ( by the word ) to the Incumbents , having none else to use it by . But Lawyers have taught many to call nothing Government , that is not Cogent on the unwilling ; and so to say , that Government is not in the Presbyters , but the Bishops ; and that all is derived from the King ; which is all true , of Cogent Government by the Sword , in f●ro exteriore ; but not as to Pastoral Government of the Flock by Gods w●rd . As Bishop Bilson of Obedience hath distinguished , and applied well at large . XI . Now to come nearer our Case , Diocesan Bishops have put down the ranks of Bishops which of old was setled as Presidents over the Presbyters in every Church , in Cities , and of the lowest Order ( described by Ignatius , and Cyprian , and others ) : Every lowest Church hath not now a Bishop over the Presbyters , as it had for divers hundred years . And by this they have unchurched all the old sort of Churches in the sense of them that say , There is no Church where there is no Bishop over Pre●byters : And they have set up a Diocesan Church and Bishop , only w●●re should be many Churches and Bishops ; and thus , 〈◊〉 hom●●●m , I argued with them , &c. But indeed this Parochial Episcopacy , or Pr●sid●ncy being wrongfully said to be Essential to the Church ( being at most b●t useful to peace , ad melius esse ) and the Epicopacy or Pastoral care of the Laity without any power over the Clergy ; being it that is essential to single Church Pastors , In truth no man can alter this . In Consent and ●●putati●n , it is altered by those that think Parish Curates no Pastors , and deny any Essential power over their Flocks . But it is not in Consent and Reputation destroyed by them that acknowledg their Essential power , and subject only themselves as Pastors to the oversight of Diocesans and Magistrates . They do but destroy the 〈…〉 of Episcopacy of humane Institution ( which was over Presbyters in 〈◊〉 Ch●rch●● ▪ but not the Episcopacy over the Flock which is of Christs Ins●i●utio● ▪ XII . 〈◊〉 whether most in England are of this Opinion , or of that , for 〈◊〉 or for meer g●verning Episcopacy , and which way the Laws go , and 〈◊〉 may be called the sense of the Church , when Convocations and Bishops seem to differ , and men change their Opinions with the Age and Interest , it is impossible for me to be sure . But I know how they govern , by what Canons , and by what Courts ; and as all their Cogent power is from the King , it is no wonder if they be chosen by him : But the old sort of Bishops that had no forcing power , was so constantly otherwise chosen , that their Canons nulled the Magistrates choice . And our present Canons since 1604 , tho they null not the Parochial Pastorship , do so far restrain it , as I hope my Conscience shall never approve . But yet , for that I will not forsake what is of God , nor make mans failings a pretence against my duty to God and Man , to the Violation of Love , Unity and Peace . Yet I will try by distinct speaking to make both the Case and my meaining plainer , if I can : And thereby to shew , that our case differeth but gradually from the old Nonconformists , as to Lay-mens Parochial Communion , where there are honest Ministers . And that the old Nonconformists had better Evidence , Scripture and Reason on their side , than either those Innovators , who make Parish-Pastors to be but de specie , of humane Institution , made by Bishops , and changeable by them , having just so much power as they please to give them ; or the Brownists , that are so much of the same Principles , as to think that mens Laws or Canons can change the form of the Office , or that judg it nullified by tollerable Imperfections , and Communion made unlawful by such faults , as are found in almost all the Churches on Earth . Qu. Whether according to the description of the Scripture , and the exposition of Dr. Hammond himself , all qualified Parish Ministers be not true Pastors and Bishops of the Flocks , and with their consenting Christian Communicants , true particular Churches ; and de facto all be not in the power given them by God , which is essential hereto , and in the power generally acknowledged by the legal Church ? Ans . I have spoken to this so largely in my Treatise of Episcopacy , ( and there added the testimonies of Writers , old and new , Protestants and Papists ( that I will give but a breviate of it here . The essence of the Church Ministry consisteth in POWER and OBLIGATION FROM CHRIST , to teach , to guide in Worship , and to oversee and guide the Conversation and Communion of the Flocks ; If it were not of Christ , they were but officers of men , de specie , even of an office of mans making . Dr. Hammond saith , that Christ gave the Keys only to the Apostles , and they only to their Successors : That there is no evidence that there were any of a second order of Presbyters in Scripture time ; that this order was after made by Man , Mr. Dodwell sheweth how and why ; and more fully than Dr. Hammond , asserteth , that such Presbyters have no more power than the ordaining Bishops intended to give them : Or saith Dr. H. If they have a first power , it is such as may not be exercised without a second ; so that it is indeed no true power to act : And the Dr. plainly tells the London Ministers p. 80 , 81. There is no manner of incongruity in assigning of one Bishop to one Church , and so one Bishop in the Church of Jerusalem , because it is A. CHURCH , not Churches : being forced to acknowledg that where there were more Churches , there were more Bishops . And he denied our Presbyters , that were not Diocesans , to be Bishops ( both City and Country Presbyters ) : And consequently that our Parishes were no Churches . And on these grounds he and Bishop Gunning , and such others , judged Presbyters Ordination null , because they were no Bishops . And the said Dr. ( tho I thought he had been next Petavius , one of the first that had expounded the new Testament Elders , to be all Bishops of several Diocesses ) yet tells us that he thought most of his brethren were of his mind herein : And when we in Worcestershire formed a Pacificatory Association of the Epicopal , Presbyterians , Indep●ndents , and Peace-makers , agreeing lovingly to practice so much in Doctrine , Worship and Discipline as we were for , according to our several principles , forbearing each other in the rest , and Dr. Warmst●●● , and Dr. Tho. Good , being for Bishops , subscribed to it , Dr. Peter Gunn●●g wro●e largely against so doing to Dr. Warmstrie , and took him off , upon these aforesaid principles ; and they then called their Judgment , the Judgment of the Church of England , and wrote as if the Church had been of their mind , and gone their way . I wrote ●large Answer to Dr Gunning's Paper , ( not printed ) and proved that the old Protestant Bishops and Doctors were of another mind , largely citing their testimonies in my Christian C●nc●rd , and plainly warned English Protest●nts to take heed of these Innovators , and that the name of the Church and Episcopacy deceive them not against the Church and Protestant Cau●e ; many ●ose against me for this with great indign●tion , especially Arch-Bishop Bramhall , and two or three learned Writers , and would make the world believe , that it was the Church of England which I sought to defame and bring under suspition , and which owned Gr●tius and his way of Reconciliation with Rome , when as it was for departing from the professed principles of the reformed Bishops and Doctors , and from the book of Ordination , and other writings of the Church that I blamed them : Yet would they needs claim the name of the Church of England . And it is not here seasonable for me to tell , how many and how great men in 1661 , and 1662 seemed by their w●rds and doings to be full ( at least ) as high as they , nor how they expressed it , nor how many strongly conceited by the Act th●● requireth reordination of men ordained by Presbyters , and by the number rejected who refused it , That the Parliament had been of th●ir mind , and much more the ●●nv●cation called the church-repr●sentative ; especi●lly when they heard men call the old Bishops and Arch-Bishops ( such as ●sher , Downame , 〈◊〉 , &c. in I●eland , and G. Abbot , Rob. A●b●t , Grindal , and many such in England ) Puritans and Presbyterians : And when P●● . H●l●● maketh Arch bishop Abbot . and the Bishops and Clergy in his days to ●e of one mind ( vilified by him ) and Arch-bishop Laud and his Clergy after , of another : In this case I gave the name of the present Diocesans , to those that thus claimed it , and pretended so confidently to the present possession of it ; but I thought not their claim just : And when I sometimes used the name of English Di●cesans , for this sort who nullifie the Parish Churches and Pastorship , it was but to notifie them that so claimed it , supposing I had oft sufficiently opened my sense , and usually added that they nullifie them not effectively , but quantum in se , and by their consequences . But I again now tell the Reader , that I think the Judgment of the church of England , considered as humanely constituted by publick professions , and by Law , ( much less as divinely constituted ) is not to be measured or named from any innovators , or any that most confidently claim it , or think they are uppermost at the present , and thereby have that right ; but ( as Divine ) by Gods word , whose sufficiency we all profess ; and as humane , by the published Church professions ; that is , the Liturgy , the book of Ordination , the 39 Articles of Religion , the Apology of the Church of England , the Defence of that Apology set in all Churches , the book of H●milies , Nowels Catechism , the R●f●rmatio Legum Ec●les ▪ the Canons , and the licenced books of the Protestant Bishops and Doctors , such as Arch-bp . Cranmers , Bp. H●●pers , Arch-bp . ●arkers , Arch-bp . Grin●als , Arch-bp . Abbots , Arch-bp . Edward Sandys , Arch-bp . Whitgift , Bp. Pilk●nton , Bp. Jewel , Bp. Ally , Bp. Babingt●n , Bp. M●rt●n , ●p . Hall , Bp. Davenant , Bp. ●rideaux , Bp. Br●wn●ig , B. ●otter , Bp. Miles Smith , Bp. Carl●on , Bp Bayly , Bp. Parry , Bp. C●wper , and many more such , ( besides those in Ir●land aforesaid ) : And such ●rs as Dr. Wh●taker , Dr Field , Dr. Crakenth●●pe , Dr. Sutlive , Dr. Mas●n , Dr. VVhite , Dr. ●i●y , Dr. Chaloner , Dr. VVard , Dr. VVillet , Dr. Holland ▪ and abundance more ; besides all other old licenced Writers : I think that all these do fitlier notify and denominate the Church of Englands Judgment , than the Writings of one Irish Arch-Bp . and Dr. Hammond , and Dr. Gunning ( since Bp. ) and a few more such in the points wherein they differ from the rest , ( tho Grotius and their Chaplains be added to the number . ) And now I will add this further evidence in the conclusion , ( besides that as I said before ) the present Laws put us to abjure alterations , and therefore sure they never thought that they so altered the Government themselves , that even while they say that the Parishes are no Churches , but parcels of Churches , and the Priests are no Bps. of the Flock , most really acknowledg them the thing , that deny the Name . And the argument from the definition is stronger than from the Name . And here I will but name first , the Scripture descriptions of a Bp. and 2. Dr. Hammonds exposition of those Texts . 3. And the matter of fact among us . The first part of the Bps. office is teaching the flock . Under this teaching part , 1. the Bishops office is to preach to them , 1 Pet. 5.2 , 3. Feed the flock of God which is among you , taking the oversight ( Or Episcopacy ) thereof , &c. Dr. Hammond : The Bps. of your several Churches I exhort . — Take care of your several Churches , and Govern them , &c. Qust . Whom doth the Law require to do more in feeding and guiding the flock ? The Incubment that preacheth daily , or the Bp. that never seeth the most , nor ever preacheth to one Flock of many ? Who are they [ that are among the Flock ] the Incumbent that dwells with them , or the Bp. that is a stranger to them ? 1 Thes . 5.12 . We beseech you brethren to know them that labour among you , and are over you in the Lord , and admonish you , and to esteem them very highly in love for their work sake , and be at peace among your selves . Dr. Hammond . Pay your Bps. as great a respect as is possible , for the pains they have taken among you . Qust . Who Laboureth among them most in the several parishes , publickly and privately ? The Bp. that never saw them , or the Incumbent that layeth out all his Study and Time on them ? Who are most among them ? Who most admonisheth them ? What is meant by [ among themselves ? ] Is it that Lincoln shire , Leicester-shire , Northamton-shire , Buckingham-shire , be at peace among themselves , from Gainsborough to Oxford-shire ? or is it not rather that neighbour Christians that see each other , so live in peace ? 1 Tim. 5.17 . The elders that rule well , are worthy of double honour ; especially they tha● labour in the word and doctrine . Dr. Hammond : Let the Bps. that have discharged that function well , receive for their reward twice as much as others have ; especially those that preach the Gospel , to whom it was news , and continue to instruct congregatons of Christians in setled Churches . Quest . On whom doth the law impose most preaching ? On Bps. or on parish Priests ? And who doth most of that work ? Heb. 13. Remember them who have the rule over you , who have spoken to you the word of God. Dr. Hammond : Set before your eyes the Bps. and governours , who have been in your Church , and preached the Gospel to you . Quest . Ask the parishes who those be ? 2 Tim. 4.2 . I charge thee before God , and the Lord Jesus Christ , who shall judg the qui●k and the dead at his appearing , and his Kingdom , preach the word , be instant in season , out of season , reprove , rebuke , exhort , with all long suffering and d●●●rine . Not only Dr. Hammond , but all that are for Prelacy expound this of a Bps office . Quest . Ask the people who most performs it . 2. The Bps Office is also to watch over all the Flock , personally , by conference , instruction ▪ counsel , admonition , exhortation , reproof , comfort , as every one shall need Saith Bp. Jer. Tayl●r Pref. to Treat of Rep. No man can give account of th●se that he knoweth not . Acts 20.10 , 28 , 31. I taught you publickly , and from house to house . — Take heed t● your selves , and to all the flock over which the Holy Ghost hath made you Bps , to ●eed the Church of God which he hath purchased with his own Blood. — Therefore watch , and remember that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears . Dr. Hammond . Instructing both in the Synagogues , and the private Schools , and in your several houses whither I also came . — Wherefore ye that are Bps. or governors of the several Churches . — Look to your selves , and the Churches committed to your trust , to Rule and order all the faithful under you . Quest . Is this done more by the Diocesans , or by the Incumbents ? Do Diocesans teach from house to house , from Southwark to Christ-Church , from N●wark to Alesbury or Tame ? Who doth the law appoint to warn every one in the Church , from house to house , and night and day , & c. ? Col. 1.28 . Whom we preach , warning every man , and teaching every man in all wisdom , that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus ; Heb. 13.17 . Obey them that have the rule over you , and submit your selves , for they watch for your souls , as those that must give account . Dr. Hamm●nd : Obey those that are set to rule over your several Churches , the Bps. whose whole care is spent among you , as being to give account of your proficiency in the Gospel . Q●st . Is it the Diocesan or the Incumbent that the law requireth to preach to , and warn every man , & c. ? And that watch for their Souls as those that must give account ? Is not the incumbent of this or that parish fitter to watch and give account of each Soul , than the Diocesan for a whole Country , or many Counties , who never saw them ? Can he do as Ignatius's Bishops , that must take notice of all the Church , even Servants and Maids ? 3. The bishops office is to be a visible example to all the flock , of Humility , Meekness , Patience , Holiness , Charity and good Works . Heb. 13.7 . Remember them who have the rule over you , who have spoken to you the word of God , whose faith follow , considering the end of their conversations . Dr. Hammond : Set before your eyes the Bishops — observe their manner of living . Quest . VVho can observe his example whom he never saw nor know ? Or who can make an unknown man his pattern ? Do the fl●cks see more the Incumbents example , or the Diocesans ? It is their example that sak to them thword of God , that the Apostle sets before them : And who be those ? Perhaps it will be said , that Fame may tell the Di●cess of the example of their Diocesan , tho they see him n●t . I answer , 1. But the Text speaketh of those that preach to them . Fame may as well tell us of the good works of any other bishop , as of the Diocesan : Many bishops in London live near us ; it may tell us of any other good mans life . What is this to the Text ? 1 Pet. 5.3 . Neither as being Lords over Gods heritage , but being examples to the flock . Dr. Hammond : VValking Christianly and exemplary before them . Q. VVhat ? Before them that never knew them , nor could do ? Doth the Diocesan or the Incumbent more walk as a known example before the Parish flock , for their imitation ? 4. It is part of a bishops office as a general Minister , not only to teach the Church , but to preach to those that are yet no Members of the Church , Matth 28.19 . Go and disciple me all nations . 1 Tim. 5.17 . They that 〈◊〉 in the word and doctrine . Dr. Hammond : To preach the Gospel to whom it was n●ws . Acts 26.17 , 18. To whom I send thee , to ●p●n their eyes , and turn them from darkness to light , and from the p●wer of Satan unto God , &c. Not that fixed Pastors must wander to do this , as un●ixed Missionaries ; but within their reach . Hence Dr. Hammond noteth out of Clemens R●m . That they are made Bishops over the Infidels that should after believe● : And bishop D●wname saith , that the City and Territories are their Diocesses , when the Christians were but few ; and as Dr. H. saith , But one Congregation , whic● one bishop only with a Deacon or two served : So that either a Diocess was no Church , or it was a Diocesan Church of Heathens save that Congregation . Our great Parishes , that have 70000 , or 60000 , or 40000 , or 20000 souls , have not the sixth part ( that I say not the tenth ) so many Communicants . Who is it that preacheth most for the Conversion of the rest , Atheists , Sadduces , Infidels , Hereticks , Bruitists , and impious ones ? Is it the Diocesan or the Incumbent ? Who doth the Law most require it of ? 5. It is part of the Boshops office to Catechize or Teach the Novices that have need of milk , and are as Children in danger of being tost up and down and carried to and fro with every wind of Doctrine . See Eph 4.14 , 15 , 16 ▪ Heb. 5.11 , 12. With Dr. Hammonds Paraphrase . Quest . Doth the Law and Church lay more of this on Diocesans ▪ or parish Pastors ? 6. It is the Bishops work to defend the truth against gainsayers , and confute adversaries , and stop the mouths of Hereticks , Infidels , and other enemies ; as is confest by Dr. Hammond , on many Texts to Timothy and Titus , as 2 Tim. 2.24 , 25 , &c. Not by force , but by evidence of truth . And doth not the Law and Church lay more of this on the Incumbents , than the Diocesans ( who are not U●iquitaries ) ? II. The Second part of the Bps. office , is Guidance , and officiating before the Church in publick worship ; in subordination to Christs Priesthood . 1. By confessing sin , and to be the subintercessor , or the mouth of the Church in publick prayer , thanksgiving , and praise to God. 2. In Consecrating , and Distributing , and giving in Christs Name , the Sacrament of Communion . 3. To bless the Congregation in the name of the Lord , &c. All these Dr. Hammond maketh the Bps. office , and so doth the Scripture , and so did Justin Martyr , Tertullian , &c. Citations in a confessed case would but be tedious . Quest. And who doth this most in all the Churches ? Who confesseth sin , prayeth for mercy , praiseth God , administreth the Lords Supper , blesseth the people , &c. The Bp ▪ to many hundred Churches , or each Incumbent to each Church ? And on whom doth the Law most impose it ? And what doth the Diocesan in it , more than any one of the rest ? 2. Dr Hanmond , on Acts 2. And Acts 4.33 , 34 , 35. Sheweth that it was the Bps. part , to receive all the offerings of the Communicants , and all the tythes and first fruits , &c. Who doth this most ? The Diocesan in all the Parishes of his Diocesse , or the Incumbents ? 3. Dr Hammond , ( and many old Canons before him ) tells us , that the Bp. was out of the Church flock , to take care of all the poor , orphans , widows , strangers ; Deacons were herein but servants under them ▪ Dr. Hammond , on 1 Cor 12.28 . The supreme trust and charge was reserved to the Apostles and Bps. of the Church . But the poor will starve if the Incumbent with his assistance do not more in this than the Diocesan . 4. It is the Bps. office to visit the sick . Jam ▪ 5. Call for the elders of the Church , and let them pray over him , &c. Dr. Hammond , in v. 14. Because there is no evidence , whereby these may appear to have been so early brought into the Church ( that is Subpresbyters ) and because 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the plural doth as way conclude that th●re were m●re of these elders than one in each particular Church , and because elders of the Church was both in the Scriptures style , and in the first writers the title of Bps. and lastly , because the visiting of the sick is anciently mentioned as one branch of the office of Bps. therefore it may very reasonably be resolved that the Bps. of the Church , one in each particular Church , are here meant . Quest . Is it the Diocesan ( perhaps 50 Miles off ) that the sick must send for , or that the Law and Church impose this on , ( to visit the sick , and pray over them , &c. ) ? or is it the Incumbents ? III. But the great doubt is , who hath the Power of Government , and who actually governs , ( not by the sword ) but with the Ministerial Pastoral Government ? And here it must still be remembred . 1. That this particular power of the Keys or Government , is only by the word of God opened and applied ; as Bp. Bilson hath proved , and is commonly confessed ; some call it Perswasive , some Directive , some Doctrinial ; But it is not such meer direction or perswasion as any man may use to another ; but such as is the part of one commissioned to it as his office ; An Authoritative perswasion , and a Judicial decision , as by an intrusted steward of Christ : but only on Conscience , and on Voluntiers , and not by any power to exercise force on body or purse . 2. That Governing , and unjust restraining this power , is not taking it away from the Pastor ; and laying penalties on men for exercising some part of that which Christ hath given , doth but bind men to bear that penalty when the exercise is necessary . Now let us consider wherein the Governing Power doth consist . 1. It primarily consisteth in judging who is capable of Baptisme and so Baptizing them . This is the first and great exercise of the Keys , and that 〈◊〉 foro exteriore . To judge who shall be taken publ●ckly for a Christian , and in Christs Name to invest him solemnly in the number of the faithful , delivering him a sealed pardon of all his sins , and a grant of right to grace and glory . Can there be a higher exercise of the Keys ? Matth. 28.19 , 20. It is the Apostles work [ Disciple me all nations , baptizing them , &c. ] And Dr. Hamm●nd thinketh that in Scripture-time there were no Baptizing Presbyters , but Bishops ; and indeed it is so great a use of the Keys , that this chiefly condemneth Laymens and womens Baptizing ; at least the trying the Catechized , and judging of their capacities must needs be the prime great act of Church-Power , whatever be said of the execut●●n . Now Papists and Protestants generally place this Power in Parochial Incumbents , yea , and in all other ●resbyters : Even those that convert Countreys of Infidels , and are under no particular Bishop , must baptize and judg of the Catechumens capacity for baptism ; and are Parish Incumbents denied this Office ▪ power of the Keys ? and is it the Diocesan or they that use it by baptizing ? Obj. The Canon requireth them to baptize all Infants brought according to law , and so not to be the Judges . Ans . You should say , and so command● them how to judge . The Magistrate may command men how to do their office-work , and yet neither be the maker nor unmaker of the office , ( tho he mistake : ) If Rulers misgovern , that 's their sin , but the office of Pastors is still the same , and we must not misobey , but suffer , and as B●shop Bilson saith , Go on with our work as long as we can . 2. And to bid them do more than they would , is not to null their power of doing less . And to punish a man for his duty , is not to di●oblige him from it , till it truly disable him . 2. A second great exercise of the Church Keys , is Ministerially as from Christ to declare his Laws ▪ and charge men to obey them , both the Church together , and particular persons singly . As Legislation is the first and great part of Christs Government [ before Judicature ] so the Ministerial declaring Christs commands , and demanding obedience , is the great act of Government . The same word therefore comprehendeth feeding and ruling , 1 Pet 5.2 , 3. &c. Matth. 24.45 , 46. Who then is a faithful and wise servant , whom his Lord hath made ruler over his houshold , to give them meat in due sea●●n ? It is ruling by seasonable feeding . 1 Thes . 5.12 . To be over them , is exercised by labouring amongst them , and admonishing them , 1 Tim. 5.17 . Ruling well , is nothing greater than labouring in the word and d●ctrine , 1 Tim. 3.2 . A Bish●p must be apt to teach : Dr. Hammond , One that is able and ready to communicate to others the knowledg that he him●elf hath . Heb. 13.7 , ●7 , 24. Ruling the fl●ck is by teaching and watching over th●m . To be the greatest is to be most serviceable to all ; to be ruled by them , is to know them , to esteem them highly in love for their works sake , to obey Gods word delivered by them , and their conduct in mutable circumstances , Heb. 13.7 . 1 Thes . 5.12 And to imitate their good examples , 1 Pet. 5.3 . And what law forbids Incumbents to promulgate Christs commands , and charge men to obey them ? Or to go to any negligent person of his Flock with the same charge ? or to go to any Drunkard , Fornicator , Railer , and to tell him from God of h●s sin and danger , and exhort and command him to repent and amend ? And who most doth this work among us ? 3. Another part of Government is to judg professing Christians capable of Sacramental Communi●● , and admit them , and deliver it them as Christs Ministers , b● his com●●●si●● , an● from him ; And therein to renew their publick abso●ution , and the●r Co●enant p●i●●ledg , and their delivered part in Christ , and right to life : No●e dare d●●y that this is a high part of the power of the Keys , and proper Governme●t , to judg who is capable of Church Communion , and receive them , and deliver them from Christ , the pledg of life . And all Papists and Protestants almost , judg this power essential to the Priesthood , and common to all Parochial Incumbents : And the Church of England ( as I said before ) , 1. Delivereth it to them in Ordination . 2. Requireth them to catechize and cert●fie for such as shall be confi●med ; and methinks the Diocesan here useth less of the judicial power than the Incumbent , for he doth but lay his hands on them and say a prayer over such as come to him ; for no man can dream that he can examine all the people in his Diocess so far as to judg whether they are fit for Communion : Therefore he is supposed but to execute the judgment of the certifying Incumbent ( If he take all at a venture , without a certificate , or knowledg , or if the Incumbent be unfaithful , I cannot help or excuse that ) . 3. They are required to keep away all that be not confirmed , or ready , and desirous of it . 4. They may hear any just accusation of the scandalous . 5. They may admonish him , ( if he will speak with them ) . 6. They may refuse him if obstinate and impenitent . 7. They may declare the reason why they do so , as Christs Ministers by his Authority , and tell the Church their duty to avoid the Communion of such . 8. They may bind him over to answer his contumacy at the Bar of God ; and what of this is denied by the Church , to belong to the Incumbents Office ? and who else is capable of doing this in Parishes that have multitudes of ungodly persons ? If all this should be made so difficult by the multitude and badness of delinquents , or by bad Canons , or bad Government of the Church by Diocesans , Officials , &c. and thereby be almost all left undone , I cannot help that , nor excuse it ; but what I have said against such doing is too little : And if Priests be so bad , that they will ( any where ) sooner scorn it than practice it , at the rate that it must cost them , I am as much against such Priests as others are : But I will not therefore make the Office of Christ● Ministers , the creature of man , and mutable at his will ▪ nor will I forsake faithful Ministers for the sake of the perfidious ; no nor for their own tolerable faults or imperfections . And now consider seriously , 1. Whether there be any essential part of the office of a Pastor , denied by that which may justly be called the Church of England , to the Parish Incumbents . 2. And whether incomparably more of it , even of the government of the flocks , by the K●ys of Christs Institution , be not by Law and Canon required , and in fact performed by the said Incumbents , than by the Diocesans . And whether any use it , if they do not . If it be alledged , that I have in my Treatise of Episcopacy , named many instances in which they are deprived of the exercise of the very essentials ; I still answer , that if any shall by misgoverning Canons or practise lay penalties on them that will perform their office , these do their part to destroy it ; but their sin may consist with the true office that is hindred : If we cannot pray without penalty , we are yet bound to pray : And if any such penalties should prevail with any Ministers to cast off so much of Discipline as is indeed their duty , their office is so far destroyed as to its exercise : But it is not every ill Council , Canon , Bishop or Priest of old when they began to be corrupted , that changed and nullified the Pastoral Power and Office as from Christ . I have repeated things over and over here , because I would not be misunderstood , nor leave a snare behind me to mislead men . The sum again is , 1. The Pastoral Office in specie is instituted by Christ and his Spirit , therefore the essence of it is unchangeably fixed by him ; and no Bishops or Churches may change it , by pretending they may give Presbyters as their servants what degree or kind of power they please ; or make the office another thing . II. The said office in mutable accidents or circumstances may be altered by Princes Laws , or the several Churches Agreements , and thus far it is humane . Of the Divine sort was the Apostolick and other extraordinary Prophetick offices : And the ordinary Presbytery , commonly called Priesthood , and Elders setled over particular Churches , were Episc●pi Gregis ; Bishops , over the flock . And of the humane sort is the Presidency of one in every single Church over the rest of the Presbyters , who was the Episcopus Presbyterorum , a Bishop over the Presbyters of one single Church as well as over the people : This was the old Episcopacy of the first three Centuries ; this is it which I say our Diocesans have put down ; and we that would have them restored , and would have such a Bishop and Assistant , Elders in every Church , are by the heighth of impudency , said to be against Bishops , because we would have them restored to each Church ( tho not as essential to it , as hath been thought of old ) yet as a way of peace , to comply with Ant●quity , and avoid singularity ; and they that put down many score or hundred Bishops and instead of them would have but one , call themselves Episcopal . III. Whether Arch-bps . ( Diocesans . ) as successors of the Apostles in the ministerial care of many Churches ( by the word and not the sword ) be of Divine or Human Institution , I am in doubt . IV. The cogent Power by the Sword is only the Magistrates ; and if Diocesans appropriate this only , they are Magistrates ; and thereby take none of our office from us . V. The ●ssence of the Parish ministerial oversight being of God , de specie , and the accidents that are mutable from man , the existence of the office in individual persons , is not without consent of the Pastors ; so that no man can be a Pastor against or without his will ; ( nor yet without a capacity in qualifi●ati●n ; so that if you prove any person to be uncapabl● , or else to have truly disclaimed and renounced the essentials of his office : I am not about to perswade you , that such a man is a true Pastor . VI. But then we must know , that indeed it is such an incapacity , or renunciation , and not a tollerable defect ; nor subscriptions and Oaths , which by unseen consequences may seem to renounce it , when the man took them in a sense which renounced it not : For tho such a man may greatly sin by taking Oaths or subscriptions in a forced sense , which plainly taken would infer worse , yet his sin is not a renunciation of the office , if he declare that he meant it in a better sence , and took it on such mistake ; for we must not for bare words against mens meaning , quibble or dispute our selves into unwarrantable separations out of Christian Communion , especially when it is specially necessary . VII . And if any lay-men , or men unauthorized will usurp the Keys , or any Councils will make hurtful Canons , and hinder men in the work appointed by God , we must be faithful and patient , and God in due time will judg and decide all causes justly . VIII . The office-power is essentially related to the work ; so far as Parochial Incumbents are allowed the work as of Christ , they are acknowledged to be Pastors and Bishops of the flocks , tho the name were denied them ; and so far as the Bishops office may be delegated to Lay-men , or to Clergy-men of another Order ; so far it is Humane , and not proper to them by Gods Institution . They therefore that say , All Diocesans Jurisdiction may be so delegated to them that are no Bishops , but that the Pastoral Rectorship by Word , Sacraments and Keys cannot be delegated to any men that are not of the same office ; do thereby say as much , as that the Diocesan government is of men ( and may be changed by men ) but the Pastoral Incumbency is of Christ , and cannot be changed . The Lord that instituted it , protect it ; and save it from Satans most dangerous assault , which is by getting his own servants into it by error , and malignity , and strife , and cruelty , to do his work as the Ministers of Righteousness , and as by Christs Authority , and in his name . London Aug. 13. 1684. POSTSCRIPT Aug. 25. 1684. HE that gave me notice of this Book which I answer , did withall send me a Manuscript to be privately answered , containing the very same things , but somewhat enlarged : His displeasure against my former mention of his private Writings to me , and the Contents , made me confident that he would not have any thing Published which I should answer to his last : By which I found my self in a notable strait : For if he at once privately sent me his reasons , and also in another Book Printed them , if I should answer his private papers ( which reason forbad me doing in my condition , for his use alone ) I should judg my self forestalled from answering the Printed Book , because the matter being the very same ( and 't is likely by the same man ) I should be supposed to have broken the Laws of Civility , to have answered his private papers . But ( having no Amanuensis , or Scribe to take any Copy of his papers , or my own ) I thought it the best way to return his unanswered ( they being Written for my use , which Reading will as fully serve as answering them ) but supposing the Printed papers must be answered , I inserted also an answer to the strength of all his additionals in the Manuscript . And at last he giveth me some notice of his thoughts of publishing the Manuscript , or a vindication of it . Which falls well for the Readers use , that I have answered that Manuscript before it is Published , without taking notice of it , and s● avoiding wordy altercations . The Author professeth himself my great acquaintance . Who he is , I know not ; but he seemeth to be a very rational sober man. God forbid that I should ever contribute ( unless duty do it accidentally ) to the grievance of such men . I doubt not but he speaketh as he thinketh . And I doubt I have given him occasions by some uncautelous words in my writings . I truly thank God and him , that I am called to review them , and to clear my sence before I die . And I adjure the tearing persecuting sect , to think no more strangely and odiously of our differences in this case , than of the sharp contention of Paul and Barnabas ; or that men should scramble if Gold and Pearls were scattered in the streets , where dogs and swine would never strive about them . Gods servants would please him : we are all of weak understandings : The Wisest best know their weakness : The rest are nearest the state of the Fool , who rageth and is confident . It is impossible but offence must come , Luke 17.1 . But wo , wo , wo , to any who will make canons so extreme hard for men to agree in as terms of their Union and Communion , and excommunicate all that say a word against any word , ceremony , circumstances or office of their train ; and when they have done , cry out against men for not agreeing to every syllable , which a thousand to one are uncapable of understanding , and the better men understand them , the more they dislike them . A Short Answer to the Chief Objections in a Book ENTITULED : A Theological Dialogue , &c. THE chief matter of this Book is already answered by the Holy Ghost , 1 Cor. 1.10 . 1 Cor. 3. Rom. 16.16 , 17. Eph. 4.4 . to the 17. Phil. 2.1 , 2 , 3. 1 Thes . 5.12 , 13. John 17.22 , 23 , 24. And 1 Cor. 12. And Acts 20.30 . The Spirit and Stile of it is answered in the third Chapter of James throughout . I have nothing then to do but to answer the pretended argumentation of it : For the Author shall not draw me from my Defensive part , to play the part of a plaintif against others , or to wast my time in altercations , and spend many sheets to tell the world that another man hath not skill to speak sence , and that he seduceth others by ambiguous words , and by confusions . Obj. 1. To prove us sinful for being members of the Church of England , he saith Pag. 15. [ Is he not by Communion in the Sacarment of Baptisme made a member ? Page 13. Is not Baptisme ( according to the Liturgy ) a symbol of incorporation into the Church of England ? Confirmation another ? receiving the Lords Supper another symbol ? &c. Ans . 1. Baptism as such incorporateth no man into any particular Church , but only into the universal , as it did the Eunuch , Acts 8. 2. The ceremonies or circumstantials of Baptism , only shew what men submit to , rather than to be unbaptized , and not what particular Church they are of . 3. This objection would insinuate that all that are Baptized in the publick manner in England , were thereby incorporated into an unlawful Church , which they must by being rebaptized , or by open renunciation disclaim , And so that it is not Lawful to Communicate with any that were Baptized in the Parish Church , till they have repented it , or are Rebaptized , or Penitent openly . And if you must have all in England renounce their Baptism before you will take their Communion for lawful , the same reason will hold against your Communion with all the rest of the Churches on Earth . And when you cut off your self from all , saving a shred , are you a Member of the undivided Body of Christ ? 4. If our Baptism in England doth incorporate into their Church ( which you suppose is no Church , being a false Church ) , doth not Baptism into your Church incorporate Persons into yours ? And what then , if your Schism prove a Sin ? What if Rebaptizing prove a Sin ? What if the Covenant descri●ed by your Client , ( to obey none but Christ , in matters belonging to Worship ) prove a Sin ? are they all guilty of all these , and such others ? Obj. II. All that are liable to a Church Excommunication when they have offended , are declared Members of the Church . But all Communicants and Native Inhabitants are so . Therefore the Law hath excepted none . — How comes it to pass , that the Church hath power of excommunicating any Person , but by vertue of Incorporation , which she hath by the same Law ? He that is not in the Church , how comes he to be cast out ? — Is he not by Communion in the Sacrament of baptism made a Member ? Ans . 1. Doth their esteeming you a Member , prove that you are so ? 2. You know that they excommunicate Papists , and Atheists , who deride them for it and say , It 's a strange Church that will cast us out , because they cannot compel us to come in . 3. If this be a good ▪ argument , that all are of their Church that are excommunicate , then you are either safe from Excommunication ; or of their Church , whether you will or not : If to make good your argument , you will aver that no Separatist , Independent , Presbyterian , Anabaptist , or Quaker , was ever ▪ excommunicate , or imprisoned as such , you will change the Current of Intelligence , and comfort many that can believe you , and teach them how to escape a Prison for the time to come . But if not , you make your self and all these parties , incorporate Members of the Church of England , as well as me . 4. Do you think a Lay Civilian by Excommunicating , can prove or make a man a member of any Church against his will ? Then mens Argument against Parish Churches , for want of consent , is void . They may be made such against their wills . 5. But tho few men d●sl●ke the Lay-Excommunicators and Absolvers more than I do ( nor grudge more at the Bishops and Deans who use them , and let them put their names to the Excommunications ; especially of the poor Church-Wardens for not swearing , &c. ) yet let us not render them causelesly ridiculou● . I imagine that they excommunicate not known Papists , Anabaptists , and such like , out of their Church ( who they know were never in it ) but out of the Universal Church : If this be not their sense , let them give it you themselves , for I am not bound to be their Interpreter . And yet to moderate our Censures of them , I 'le tell you a wonder : Within this hour I received a Letter of credible Intelligence , of a Chancellor who hearing of a Conventicle not presented by the Church-Wardens , and being told that they met to repeat the publick Sermon , said , God forbid that they should be hindered . Obj. III. Page 8. A Church in a sense is a Christian Kingdom , that is , a Royal Nation under Christ their King. But there is no such Gospel-Church in your sense ; for there was neither Christian Kingdom nor King in the Ap●stl●s days . Ans . The Institution may be in the Gospel before the existence : Christian Kings and Kingdoms are neither unlawful , nor needless , because there were none then . The Prophets not only foretel that Nations shall come in to Christ and serve him , but that all Nations that do it not , shall perish . And Christs Commission to his Apostles was , To go and Disciple all Nations ( as much as in them lay ) baptizing them . Nations as such , were , first to be discipled , and then baptized , ( Infants are part of Nations ) . And Matth. 23. Christ would have gathered Jerusalems Children ( all the Jewish Nation ) into his Church , as a Hen gathereth her Chickens under her Wings . And Rom. 11. Only their own unbelief broke them off from being a National Church , ( including Infants ) . And it is part of the Saints triumph , that the Kingdoms of the World are become the Kingdoms of the Lord , and of his Christ . If you will read Mr. Beverlys Book , called The whole duty of Nations , it will give you full proof of this . Where hath the Gospel extensively much prospered where Princes and Rulers were not Christians ? The Turks give liberty of Religion . And yet the sometime famous Greek Churches , ( Corinth , Philippi , Coloss , Ephesus , Laodicea , Philadelphia , and more than all the West , are Apostatized , or withered to a few ignorant vicious scandalous Christians . Obj. IV. 8. If such a confederation in lawful Circumstantials , as well as Integrals , will make a Church , I know not why we may not have a Catholick Visible Church organized , if this be a due acception of a Church . Ans . This is as much as to say , If the name Church may be used equivocally ( as all words must ) of several sorts , then all those sorts may be the same . I deny it . If you dislike the use of the name , you have your liberty as a Grammarian to forbear it . But sure the Name and the Thing are not all one , nor the Controversies about them . 2. But we have a Catholick Visible Church Organized , as I have oft proved against the Papists , viz. under one , Christ the Head , and his Ministers as his subordinate Officers . Obj. V. Page 3. If you touch a mans finger , you touch the man : we have communion with an integrum perpartes ; and with a Genus by the Species ; and with both by individuals : Nay as every part of the Scripture , one verse or sentence of it makes up sence ; so every part of the Liturgy as in form and manner therein contrived , is Liturgy ; and worship thereafter is according to the Liturgy , tho it be but part of the w●rship . Page 20. As for the falseness in Integrals , it gives the denomination to the whole ; for an Integral part is an essential part of the whole . Much more there is to the same purpose , making him guilty of all that useth a part . Ans . 1. You have the freedom of using words at your pleasure , but not imposing them on mankind ; when necessity hath taught the World to distinguish essential and integral parts , you have no authority to confound their Language , by the quibble of calling Integrals essential causes of the whole : A totum per aggregationem ▪ as a heap of Sand , or a field of Grass , is not constituted of a proper essentiating form , and so homogeneous matter aggregate is all the being it hath . And if you make contiguity an essential cause , or how else you will , you have liberty of speech : But we will not be cheated by it to believe that it causeth any more than Totality or Integrality , and the absence of it is a privation of no more . And all mens Graces , Obedience , and Worship , are defective in point of Integrality and degree , and I hope you will not say that they need no favour , or pardon , or amendment . 2. All human actions have their faults : must we therefore do nothing , or converse with no men ? England is one Kingdom ; If there be one or many faults in its Laws or officers , may we therefore obey none that are faultless ? The Laws are the Rule of National Justice ; may a Judg , Justice , Officer or subject use none of them , because some are faulty ? Doth that make him guilty of all ? Bonum est ex causis integris : The fault of a part may indeed denominate the whole faulty so far . But the whole Law or Liturgy may be called faulty for a part , and yet he that useth either , not be guilty of any of the bad part , for using the good . The Law and Liturgy are one thing , and the use is another : Its faults are no further his , than he owneth them ; your Bread or Meat may be called bad , if part only be bad , and yet if you eat none but the good part , it will not hurt you . 2. But if it must be otherwise , no man may hear you , or joyn with your Churches : And do you think ( as aforesaid ) that Mr. Faldo , and all his Church at Barnet , lived not in a sinful communion very many years , that omitted at least an integral part of publick worship , the singing of Gods praise ? Christ with his Disciples sung a Hymn after the Sacrament . The Jews Church made it the chief part of their Worship . James prescribeth it us in all our Holy Mirth , such as the Lords Day is appointed for , 1 Cor. 14.26 . Every one had a Psalm , and with them no one had a Psalm , tho his Judgment was for it ; the question was , Whether he should forsake them for refusing it : I thought not , because it was better that they had something that was good , than nothing . But your argument would not only unchurch them , but make all sinners that communicated with them : for omissions of great duties are faults , and greater faults than tolerable failings in performance : He that prayeth not at all , doth worse than he that prayeth by a Book ; and he that preacheth or teacheth not at all , doth worse than he that readeth a Sermon ; so that their total stated omission and opposition to singing , by your false rule , denominated them no worshippers of God , if the whole must be denominated from a part . How many private Meetings in London , never sing a Psalm for fear of being discovered ? Yea , how many seldom read a Chapter , but only preach and pray , and sometime administer the Sacrament ? Must we needs say therefore that they omit all Worship ? VI. On such occasions I argued , That if we must not communicate with any Parish Church because of the faults of the Liturgy , it will follow , that we must not communicate with any Church on Earth that hath as great faults ; and that by this we must renounce Communion with all Christs Body on Earth : All the Armenians , Nestorians , Eutychians , Copties , Abassines , Georgians , Greeks , Russians , Papists , yea Lutherans , have a more faulty Liturgie , or manner of worship , than the English . Yea the Churches called Calvinists have their Liturgies and faults : And I instanced in Switzerland , because as God hath of late most preserved their peace , so they are taken to be the honestest sort of Protestants , that in poverty serve God with soundest doctrine , and least scandal of Life , but yet have no proper discipline but the Magistrates ? Is it a sin to have confederacy or Communion with their Churches ? To this he plainly saith Page 11. It is : That is , all that confederate with them , as Churches , are guilty of their error , called Erastian : For subjection t● such discipline is the condition of their Communion . Ans . Subjection is an equivocal word : If it were by profession or subscription of consent it were indeed to be guilty of that error ( tho not by a fau●t of the Part denominating the whole , to make their worship unlawful , or their Churches none ) but if by subjection you mean but joyning in their Churches as Christian and Protestant for doctrine and worship , notwithstanding the defect which they cannot help , yea which they disclaim , bare accusation will not prove this a sin ; but by this we see how much of Christs Church you are for separating from . 2. For my part I have oft published , That it is not the least part of my charge against Popery , that they unchurch almost all the Christian World save themselves : But yet they are about a 4th or 3d part of professed Christians themselves ; and divers of them do not unchurch the Greeks ; But to unchurch or forbid Communion with all that are as faulty , as the Helvetians and all other Protestant Churches that have Liturgies or partial faults , is that which I dare not be guilty of : I think that to say , That a thousand parts to one of Christs Church , are none of his Churches , is next to deposing him from his Kingdom : Much like as it would be to say , no part of London is the Kings but Amen Corner , nor any part of England but Barnet or Brentford . 3. And is it not one of our just accusations of the Papists , That they say all the Protestant Churches are no true Churches , and the Ministers no true Pastors ; and that Communion with them is unlawful ? and shall we now justifie them and say as they ( tho not on the same Reason , but for a far smaller difference ) ? Is this our running from Popery ? 4. Yea , is it not the great thing that we accuse the superconformists for ? That they make us to be no true Ministers or Churches ? and are we indeed of the same mind ? One side saith , We are no true Ministers for want of Bps. Ordination , &c. Another side saith , You are no true Ministers for having Communion with the Bishops and Churches , &c. VII . I mentioned the Judgment and Practise of the old Nonconformists and Presbyterians , not as a rule , but as a comparative example . To this he saith , p. 11. You and they might as well own the Church of England in the form and constitution as it is established as the Parish churches to be particular Gospel churches , &c. — P. 12. To say you join with a quatenus , and own not the very constitution and standing of the church , with which you join in the sense the church asserts it , is the greatest equivocation in practice that is : The old Nonconformists nor you are to be no presidents to us in this case — So far as the old Nonconformists , and the old reforming conformists went forward with Reformation to bring the church out of the wilderness , we honour them ; but when they turn back again , and entice the people so to do , we are afraid to tempt God in that manner — P. 14. Those ●ld Nonconformists that did so , are no presidents to 〈◊〉 ; If they halted and were lame , must we be so ? such communicants are not acceptable to any Church , and I know what Church would never admit them , were it not to punish and expose them and their profession , as ridiculous and inconsistent with its self : And as for FRENCH and DUTCH , what are they to us , &c. — P. 16 ▪ He calls Mr. Fenns joining in the Liturgy with exception of some part [ The sul●en practice of a half-paced doting Nonc●nformist . Ans . First to the Cause , and secondly to the Persons . 1. To call any practice , Equivocation , or by any ill name ▪ is no proof that it is so ; nor is here a word of true proof given us : I ask the Considerate ; Is it in the power of a Law-maker , to make all Worship and Duty to God unlawful by commanding to do it for an unlawful end , or upon false principles ? What if a Law said , All people shall worship God , not because the Scripture commandeth it , but because the State commands it ? Would this make it unlawful to worship God ? I would disown the Principle , and go on . What if the Law should say , The Pastoral Office is not of Divine Right , but humane , must the office therefore be renounced ? And why can such a Law any more bind me to judg of Church-constitutions by the Lawmakers words , rather than by Gods Word ? Suppose that the Anabaptists say , That rebaptizing is the true way of Church-gathering : Is it a sin to communicate with them , if they will receive me when I profess the contrary . I am against the Covenant which you defend , as making an Independent Church : Is it therefore a sin to communicate with them , because it is not as constituted by that Covenant ? What do Parties more differ in of late , than Forms , Orders , Modes and Circumstances of Church Government ; and if they be of many contrary minds , were it twenty , there can be but one of them in the right : And is it unlawful to join with all the rest ? Must we needs be sure which of these is in the right ? Almost all the Churches that I hear of in the world , have their agreed professions published ; the Protestants are gathered in the Corpus confessionum ; the English Church Principles and Orders are expressed in the Book of Canons , the Liturgy , Ordination , the 39 Articles , the Homilies , the Apology , &c. Must every one stay from their Churches , till he hath read and understood all these Books , and be sure that there is no fault or error in them ? What if it be poor men or women that cannot buy all these books ? and what if they cannot read ? whom shall they get to read them all ? and how shall they have time to study them , or capacity to understand them , when we can hardly get them to learn a Catechism and anderstand it ? You will say , That is their crime that make all these Confessions and Books : They will answer , but that 's none of our fault : We made them not , and yet must we not communicate with any Church that maketh such ? The old Separatists , called Brownists , published their confession , and therein owned many Parish Churches in England , and Communion with them : I recited their words in my Reasons , &c. But you are gone beyond them : The New ▪ England churches printed their confession , and all there agreed not to it : The English Independents published their Principles and Confessions : And the Presbyterians and they agreed in the Westminster Synods confession , catechism and Directory : Is every poor Man and Woman bound to stay from all their churches , ( when for 14 years they had no other ) till they understand all these , and know that they are faultless ? Or if there be any fault in any one of all these books , is every one guilty of them that cometh to the churches ? The Anabaptists published their confession : The Dutch have theirs : Many churches agreed with them in the Synod of Dort. The French have theirs ; the Saxons , the Helvetians , Geneva , the Bohemians , the Protestants in general had the Augustane , and many more have theirs . Reader , See with whom these Writers will hold communion , who make it unlawful to join with any church that have any fault in their constitutions , or agreed Doctrines or Orders . Let us rise upward , till we come to the Apostles days : None of all these churches named , dare profess all their agreements and confession to be without fault , that ever I heard of , except the English , who bind Ministers to assent and consent to all things commanded and prescribed in three Books and excommunicate those that say their Books or Ceremonies and Government hath any thing contrary to the Word of God ; but no Lay-man is bound to believe them ; Wickliffe , and John H●s , the Waldenses , and the Bohemians Confessions , are not faultless : Of the Papist , and the S●cinians , we will make no question ; the forenamed churches of Greeks , Russians , Armenians , Abassines , Nestorians , Jacobites , &c. are , alas , past question faulty : the general councils upward from that of Trent , Basil , Constance , &c. to the six first , yea , the four first , which some equal to the four Gospels , are far from ▪ being faultless in the Judgment of these Objectors , and of my self : the Arrian and other heretical councils are past question ; even that of Nice , the first and best , I suppose he and I think did not well in setling church-power as they did , and forbidding all kneeling on the Lords days , in Adoration , and other the like : The Donatists and the Novatians , called the Puritans of those times , had faulty agreements ; were it but for Bps. and Arch-Bps . ●e will think them so : this Writer can name no one church on the face of the Earth Orthodox or heretical ( tho Aerius called Presbyters equal with Bps. ) that was not for Bishops over Presbyters from the year 100 after Christ , t●ll the Reformation , that ever I could read of : Yea , consider whether they were not in the Apostles days , when Jerome , who most depresseth this degree , saith , That there were such at Alexandria chosen by the Presbyters from the days of Mark : and Mark died long before John the Apostle : But Episcopacy is not all : Not only Epiphanius but all Church History that speaketh of such matters , agreeth , that ( besides the croud of latter Ceremonies ) there were certain ceremonies called the customes of the Universal Church , which all the known Churches agreed in , ( even those that differ'd about Easter-day , and other such ) that is , 1. Cloathing the Baptized in white Garments . 2. Giving them milk and hony to tast . 3. Anointing them with Oyl . 4. Not kneeling in adoration on any Lords day , or any other day between Easter and Whitsunday . There is no notice when these began , so ancient were they , nor of any one Church or Christian that refused them ; but they were commonly called the Traditions Apostolical , or customes of the Universal Church . Now I agree with this Author , that these things were indeed a deviation from the Apostles practice , and ought not to have been thus used : But the question is , whether every Christian was guilty of the fault that had communion with any of these churches ? and whether had he then lived , he should have separated from all the Churches on earth ? By this you see , that this opinion must needs make men seekers , who say , that the church was in the wilderness , and lost all true Ministry , ( and , say they , particular churches , and Scripture ) after the first ( or at most the second ) century : and so that for fourteen hundred years Christ had no visible Kingdom on earth : And consequently , that we have no wiser answer to the Papist [ where was your church before Luther ] than to say that it was Invisible ; that is , that we cannot prove that there was any such thing on Earth ; and consequently , that we cannot prove that Christ had any Kingdom on earth , and was its King ; that is , whether there was any Christ in actual church-administration ? And doth separating from the whole visible church-communion agree with the prophecies and precepts of union ? Was this church like a grain of Mustard seed in its growth ? Was all the wonderful works of redemption wrought for no visible society after one or two hundred years , in which a few persecuted ones were visible ? Is not this the next step ( and a temptation ) to utter infidelity ? If Christ have now no visible church on earth , but the people called Brownists or Separatists , doth it answer the Scripture description of him and his church ? And is it not exposing christianity to the scorn of infidels , so to say ? Would not almost all rather turn Papists , than believe this ? And be rather of their church , than of none . 2. But let us next speak of the persons . I may speak my thoughts without imposing on you . I think that the Major vote is no rule to the Minor , nor always is in the right . If a hundred men that understand not Greek or Hebrew , Translate a Text one way , and a good Linguist another way , I will more suspect their judgment than his . And so in the like case . But if I hear a few odd persons condemn the judgment of the generality that are far better acquainted with matters of the same nature , [ as if School-boys that are but in their Accidence , should oppose all the upper Forms in expounding Horace , or Hesiod , or Homer ] , which , think you , should I most suspect ? — I say again to you , compare the writings of Bucer , Peter Martyr , Calvin , Beza , Melancthon , Chami●r , Blondel , Dailee , and a bundance such ; and also Greenhams , Perkins , Dr. J●●n R●ignolds , Cartwrights ▪ Dods , Hildershams , Hieroms Amesius's , Payne● , R●l●e●ks , and many such , yea with such conformists as Jewels , Bp. Downames , John Downames , Davenants , Bp. Halls , Arch-Bp . Ushers , Bp. Rob. Abbots , Dr Field● , Dr. Challoners , Dr. Airys , &c. I say , compare these with the Theological writings , of Mr. Penry , Mr. Can , and all other called separat●sts or Brownists in their times , and tell me whether these later did manifest more Holy Wisdom in Heavenly things , more skill in all other points of Divinity , than the former : If their writings ( giving Mr. Ainsworth his due honour in Hebrew and Piety ) were as far below the other , as the lower forms of School-boys are beneath the highest , which should we most suspect to have had the greater or the lesser light , specially when the lower condemn and cut off themselves from communion with all Christs known Churches on earth for thirteen hundread years . When Mr. Smith ( and lately a very good man here ) thought none fit to Baptize him again , but Baptized himself ; was not that singularity a just cause of suspicion ? Yet I make not the old Nonconformists your rule . VIII . I argued also , from the common frailties of us all , that it will be unlawful to communicate with any Church on earth , even with those of the objectors mind , if we are guilty of the sins in Doctrine , worship and discipline , of all Churches that we communicate with . I will aggravate none , nor render that odious which God accepteth : My work is to confute those that do so . But I say , that 1. we have all many errors ; And men use to put their errors into their prayers and preaching 2. Do not men use to deliberate more , and study what to write , than what to preach ? And have men reason to be confident that our preaching will be more sounder than our writing ? This Author exclaims against me , as Popish , Arminian , for Justification by works , for merit , &c. May it not be expected that I preach as bad as I write ? And is it not then a sin to be my hearer ? Can I think that he will not preach as ill as he writeth in this book ? And are all sinners therefore for hearing him ? I promise him that if I know of any Parish Minister that will usually preach with as much error , reflexion and gall as he here writeth , I will be none of that mans hearers , or usual Communicants . But to this he saith , P. 19. We distinguish between the rule of worship , and the administration and performance : — 1. It is not sins of ordinary infirmity . 2. Nor sins not foreknown , so as to prevent joining with them , but them that worship God by a false rule , &c. Ans . 1. This is the great strength of all his Book , That we sin by a false rule , but they sin only against a true rule ; but I think nothing is sin indeed , but that which is against a true rule , even Gods word ; making and using a false rule , is therefore sin , because it is against the true rule . Most hypocrites are supposed to own a true rule while they are false to it , and sin against it . To sin against knowledge , and an acknowledged rule , is an aggravation of the sin , and such shall be beaten with many stripes : Paul opens it to the Jews , Rom. 2. at large , therefore this will not excuse our communion with such . 2. This Reason crosseth the business of the opponent ; for whereas the greatest reason against Communion with Parish Churches is the badness of the Communicants , and Ministers lives ; these are not the obeying of the Law or Canons , but disobeying them : The Law , called the Rule , bids no man swear rashly , lye , be drunk , unclean , slander , rail , &c. Nay it commandeth the Minister to deny the Sacrament to such : Ignorance , unbelief , hypocrisie , are not commanded , but forbidden by that Rule : Ministers break the rule , i● they preach error , or heresie , or against Love and Peace , and promote not Godliness , and mens salvation , with all holy diligence , by Doctrine and Life ; so that no sins against this is cause of separation , if it be only using a false rule that is , just cause . 3. But what is the false Rule ? The word Rule maketh all this excuse and accusation of his a meer equivocation : In general , a rule is any thing to which we purposely conform our actions , that they may be right : Of this there are divers sorts . 1. The Primary Rule is the absolute Law of God , to which all mens actions should be conformed . 2. Subord●nate humane Rules : These are of divers sorts . 1. The obliging commands of Authority . 1. Of Magistrates . 2. Pastors . 3. Parents and Masters of Families . 4. School-Masters and Tutors of Youth , &c. 2. Contracts or Agreements of men for concord . 1. Gods Law is never a false rule , but an erring Expositor may make the words the matter of a false rule by putting on them a false sense . 2. Just subordinate rules are not false , justly used . 1. Magistrates rule either by common Laws , or temporary and particular Mandates , both being obligatory to duty , and indeed but several sorts of Laws , while they use but that authority which God gave them . Laws or Mandates are just rules . 2. Pastors can make duty by ruling-authority for none but the Flocks committed to them : They may command what God authorizeth them to command ; whether it be by word or writing , is all one : And whether you will call it a Law or not , the name altereth not the case : Tho indeed in the general notion , all is true law , which authoritatively by command maketh a subjects duty . It s a true rule when the Ruler goeth not beyond his authority ▪ Heb. 13.7 , 17 , 24. 1 Thes . 5.12 , 17 , &c. 3. The same must be said of Parents , Masters , Tutors , &c. 4. Agreements or contracts are rules made for Concord by the self-governing power that all men have over themselves : and they are just rules when justly used . 5. Besides all these , most make a mans own reason , judgment or conscience , the immediate subordinate rule of his actions . Indeed it is more fitly called the discerner of his rule and duty , as the eye is to the body : For it maketh not duty , but discerneth it made : But if any will call the Understanding a Rule to the Will , instead of a Guide , we may bear with the impropriety . All this is clear truth . Now the question is , how any of these subordinate rules are just or false ? 1. Two things God hath not only allowed , but commanded them all to do about Religion . 1. To command subjects as Gods officers to obey Gods Laws , and in just cases to punish the breakers of them , in matters within their jurisdiction . And to do this by Laws , Mandates , Judgment and Execution . 2. To make subordinate Mandates or Laws for determining such Circumstances as God hath commanded them to determine , by the General Law of Governing or Ruling , and of doing all to unity concord , edification , peace , order , and decency . These things Christian-Magistrates may do Nationally . Pastors to their Flocks , Masters to their Families and Scholars ; and equals ( Pastors and People ) may make fit agreements where they are free : And these rules may be called false or true , in several degrees . 1. It 's gross falsood and usurpation , to set up an office forbidden of God , and false in its very nature . 2. It 's next in degree false , for men of an office of Gods institution , to command things utterly out of their calling and jurisdiction , in which they have no power from God mediately or immediately . Conscience binds none to formal obedience ( propter authoritatem imperantis ) to either of these ; tho material obedience , and non-resistance , may be duties . The lower degree , is when the office is of God , and the matter is in their power , and not only belonging ad alienum forum ; But they mis-determine it in the manner , not usurping anothers office , but doing their own amiss : Tho herein conscience is not bound to obedience ; gratia materiae sub ratione indebiti modi ; yet if the matter be not forbidden of God , obedience may be a duty herein , sub ratione medii , necessary to several ends ; that is , to concord , to honour the governor , to avoid off●nce , and to avoid greater hurt to the Church , others , or our selves . But if the thing commanded be forbidden of God , no man must do it . But divers things commanded unlawfully in the manner , may become duties by that command , because they be made thereby needful means of Unity , Peace , Honour to Rulers , &c. as aforesaid , which else would have been sin ( as to meet at an inconvenient time or place , to use a Translation , metre , &c. less fit . ) Now all these being subordinate rules , they bind only subordinately by virtue of Gods supreme rule , who made them rulers ( and he is no ruler that can give no rule ) ; even as corporation By Laws bind only by vertue of the Soveraigns higher Law. And tho this Author would be the Ruler of Language so far , as to say that all sinful Worship is not false Worship , they that use words , as greater Masters have long stated the sence , do know , that the falseness is the disconformity to Gods supream Rule , and that may be in all the degrees forementioned : And Rules or Worship are both false so far as they are disconform to the Law of God. And now wherein is our Rule , false and theirs true ? 1. We own no Rule of direct immediate obedience to God , nor of any universal or unchangeable duty to God , but what his Law ( of Nature , or supernatural ) doth make us . We hold that no man hath power to alter Gods word , to command any thing against it , nor any thing which God hath appropriated to himself , as to make new conditions of salvation , new Sacraments , new Laws , as Gods , or new duties for themselves , necessary to Salvation ; no , nor any thing but what Gods own General Law doth command or allow them to determine , being left by him undetermined , to their Power and Rule . We hold that if any Ruler go contrary to , and beyond those Rules of God , it is their sin , and not ours , and we openly disown it : And so do our Rulers in general themselves most expresly in the Books of Articles , Ordination , Homilies , Apology , &c. Binding all Ministers to the Scripture for the Rule of their Preaching and Living , only infallible , sufficient in all things necessary to Salvation ; and that if Councils , or any men err or disagree with Scripture , they are not to be followed . We openly renounce all false Rules , and Canons ; but if for such sin against their own profession of Scripture-sufficiency , we must renounce Communion with all that are guilty , we scarce know the Church on Earth which we must not renounce . And the opponents in Particular . 2. For let us try now whether you have no Rule which you call False , as well as false or sinful practice . But I will first take in his fuller explication , left I mistake him . IX . Page 37. I roundly assert against you , That tho every Church of Christ hath the liberty aad priviledge to act prudentially , or make prudential determinations concerning the present use of indifferent things pro hic & nunc , yet to make any standing or binding determination and Laws for themselves or other , is altogether unlawful , as highly derogatory to the Kingly office of Christ , and robbing themselves or others of their granted priviledge , and so a forfeiture of their Charter : And so all your by-standing laws and subordinate Laws for worship which you talk of , are unwarrantable additions to the word of God. Ans . 1. This indeed is round assreting ; but your word is no proof , and here is no better . Contraily , 1. Those whom Christ maketh Rulers of his Church , and commandeth to do all things , not particularly determined by him , as shall conduce to peace , concord , order , decency , and edification , may Rule accordingly by such determinations . But some such there are whom Christ maketh Rulers of his Church &c. ergo , &c. Maj. Prob. Matth. 24. Who then is a faithful and wise Servant , whom the Lord hath made ruler over his houshold to give them meat in due season , &c. 1 Thes . 5.12 . Know them who are among you , and are over you in the Lord , &c. 1 Cor. 4.12 . Let a man so account of us , as of the Ministers of Christ , and Stewards of the mysteries of God , &c. Heb. 13.7 , 17.24 . Remember them who have the Rule over you , &c. Obey them that have the rule over you , and submit your selves , for they watch for your souls , as they that must give account , &c. Salute all that have the rule over you , &c. 1 Tim. 5.17 . The Elders that rule well are worthy of double honour : 1 Cor. 14.26 . Let all things be done to edifying . 4. Let all things be done decently and in order . 33. God is not the author of confusion , but of peace , as in all the churches of the Saints . By all this , it is evident that Church Rulers there must be ; and such successors of the Apostles in the ordinary parts of their office as Christ will be with to the end of the World , Matth. 28.20 . And also in what their Rule consisteth . Now to the question of Imposing : ( I premise , that tho this usurper of a Magistry in Language will have Imposing taken still in an ill sense ; I leave that to him , it is enough for me to tell him that I take it according to the prime signification [ to put a thing on others ] without respect to well or ill doing it . ) 1. I know not whether by every Church , he intend a meer voting body of People and Pastors by consent , or the Pastors alone as the Rulers of a voluntary People . 2. I know not whether he take [ prudential determinations ] as distinct from Governing Obligations , or not . 3. I know not whether by [ present use ] he mean it only for one present meeting , or for more , and for how many and how long : And [ by standing ] how long he meaneth . I grant to him that no man may make universal or unchangeable Laws , but temporal and mutable , and only for his own subjects . But I maintain , 1. That Pastors may by word or writing make binding commands or determinations to their Flocks of the foresaid modes and circumstances of Religion and Worship . For 1. They are such as are necessary in genere , and the determination to this or that sort disjunctively necessary : Somebody must determine them ( and that for more than the present meeting , even statedly ) : And it belongs to the Rulers office to do it : None else is fit or hath any other power , than by contract . I have oft enough instanced in particulars . It is not meet that every meeting the People be put to Vote where to meet next : And there is no certainty that they will agree ; but some be for one place , and some for another : An ordinary capacious place is necessary : It is the Rulers office to appoint it . It 's no sin against Christ for him to require them to come to the same place , from year to year , while it is fit . 2. The same I say for a commanding determination of the Lecture-days , or times of meeting , which the Pastor may prescribe statedly by his office , without the Peoples votes . Or if all such things were imposed by a Major Vote on the Minor , their Vote would be a Governing Rule to the Minor part . 3. While Praying with the Hatt on , is by the custom of the country a sign of unreverence , the Pastors ( or Elders that Rule well ) may command the Flocks by their authority , ordinarily , and not at the present only , to be uncovered at Prayer and Sacrament in the assembly , without wronging Christs Power , unless obeying it be wronging it . The same I say of usual kneeling at Prayer . 5. If the Congregation be called to confess their Faith , or renew their Covenant with God , the Rulers may command all that consent , to signifie it by such a sign , as standing , or lifting up the hand , or subscribing , &c. And they are bound to obey them . 6. I have oft enough instanced in Translations , Metres , Tunes , Utensils , Ornaments , and many such like . Obj. The Pastors make no Laws . Ans . Dally not with names : Any thing is a Law which ruling authority maketh duty : If Writing it , maketh a Law , they may write it : But a verbal-Mandate is one species of a Law : And imposeth and determineth , and obligeth to obedience ; and it is sin to disobey , because God commandeth them to obey , Heb. 13.17 . And even by the 5th Commandment . It doth as truly limit , and oblige when Pastors command , as when Magistrates do it , tho they force not by the Sword. Obj. But these are but natural circumstances , and belong no more to worship , than to any other things . Ans . It 's a sad thought to me to think how many seem satisfied with such an answer as this . All substances have their accidents , quality , time , place , &c. But yet the accident of one substance is not the accident of another ; The quantity and quality of a man is not the quantity and quality of a Toad , &c. When these accidents are adjoyned to worship , they be not accidents of other things . Is Speaking no part nor accident of worship , because speaking is used in common things ? Kneeling is used in other cases : But kneeling in prayer to express reverence , is not common to other things . Putting off the hat sheweth Reverence to a Prince : But to be uncovered at Prayer or Sacrament is the Accident at least of that Worship , and not of other things : Metre and Tunes belong to Ballads : But the Metre and Tune of Psalms doth not , but is appropriate to those Psalms . Time and Place belong to all natural actions : But the Time and Place separated to Gods Worship is an accident only of that . It is not the natural specification of an act or circumstance , or the generical nature that we speak of ; but the individual accident or circumstance as appropriate to a religious work . Is love to God no worship , because love is a natural act ? Is praying no act of Religion , because we may pray to men ? Is eating and drinking no part of the Sacrament , because we use them as natural acts for our daily sustenance ? Is washing no part of Baptism , because we wash at other times : Thinking is a natural act , but holy thinking is more : Were Davids sorts of Musick no part or accident of Worship , because Musick is natural or artificial ? It magnifieth these acts to be applied to worship , and it is a commendation of Worship-Ordinances that they are suited to nature , and advance and sanctifie it . Now at last I come closer to my question : Have you no Church Rulers among you ? No Elders that rule well ? Is it unlawful to communicate with you , if those Elders by Mandates which are obligatory to the flock do prescribe Days , and Hours , Temples , or publick places for ordinary Worship , and if they command you to use the new Translation rather than the Geneva , publickly , or prescribe the same Metre and Tunes , rather than your Congregation shall sing , some one Psalm , and some another : Or if they command them to be uncovered at Sacrament and Prayer , or to kneel at prayer ? &c. If you take this power from the Pastors , and will separate from them for such obliging Laws or Mandates , you do that very thing which you fiercely talk against ; you destroy or resist Christs Kingly Government by his Officers Oh what is Man ! What are the best of Men ! What doth the Church and World suffer by them ! The same men that cry up Christs Kingdom , call it rebellion against him to obey his Officers : As if we must depose or disobey the King , unless we disobey all his Judges , Justices and Officers . All the obligatory decisions that the Apostles made about their Love Feasts , anointing the sick , the Kiss of Love , long Hair , covering or uncovering , order of prophecying , and of collections , &c. were not standing Laws to us ; nor done by uncommunicable power ; but were temporary Laws , and local , and such as their Successors , when fit , may make . If you have no such Rulers in your Churches , you should queston whether your Churches have the true order of Pastors , as well as you question the Parish Ministers : Do they not want ruling power , as well as theirs ; specially if you deny the very power , and they be but hindred in the exercise . Obj. But some may be forced to say , Our Pastors do nothing , but by the peoples consent . Ans . They are their Pastors by consent , and rule them as voluntary , and not by force : But their rule and precepts are never less obligatory on Conscience by vertue of Gods command to obey them : Must they prescribe none of the things forementioned , till all have voted it , or consented ? They must command them to consent , and they sin if they disobey , tho they can force none to obey . Object . But some may be driven to say , We allow such prescribing power to Pastors , but not to Magistrates . Ans . 1. What Power the Kings of Judah used in Worship , David , Solomon , Asa , Jehosaphet , Hezekiah , Josiah , I need not tell . 2. Christ came not to put down Kings , but to sanctifie their office : All power is given him : By him Kings reign : The Kingdoms of the world are his by right : Rulers are his Ministers for our good : They must punish evil doers , and promote well doing : He commands us to honour and obey them ; They are keepers of both Tables : They may drive Ministers to their duty , and punish them for mal-administration : Tho they may usurp nothing proper to the pastoral office , nor forbid them any such thing , yet such circumstances as belong to the nation , or to many Churches , and not to this or that in peculiar , the Magistrates may determine : It is of great use , that all the approved Churches in a Nation , signifie their consent in the same Confession of Faith ▪ the same anniversary days of Humiliation and Thanksgiving ( as is done about the Powder Plot ) and the same Translation of the Scripture , if not also the same Psalm Books ; God strictly commandeth Concord , and to serve him with one mind and mouth , and to avoid confusion , and division , and discord : What reason can any man give why Christs Officers appointed to rule by the sword , may not thus discharge their trust ? Shall we sin if the Law impose a Translation , Psalm Book , or reverent gesture , unless we separate ? Is commanded obedience become a sin ? And yet not if a Pastor or a ruling Majority of people injoin it , or unless we leave all to confusion ? X. Here therefore I utterly renounce the opinion that shall hold that such things being lawful when uncommanded , become unlawful when commanded by such as in Ministry , Magistracy , or Families , or Schools , are Rulers : Yea , if the Ruler misdo his work , the sin is his ; I must not separate from every Kingdom , Church , or Family that is ill governed : Nor am I discharged from obedience in lawful things by the addition of some unlawful commands that destroy not acceptable Worship , and turn not our food to Poyson : I tell those Ministers that publickly charge this on Nonconformists , that they must not charge any Doctrine of Seekers or Anabaptists , or such separatists , to be the Nonconformists Doctrine : I know not one meer Nonconformist of that mind : What we of this Age thought of Ep●scopacy , Liturgy , and Magistracy , all that would come in and own that cause openly with us , have told the world in our published Proposals of 1660 and 1661 : To which we refer them that would know their minds . XI . But when I oft alledged the example of Christ and the Apostles , this Objector and Answerer saith , p. 19. We make not Christ and his Apostles Hypocrites ; for we have proved , that Christ never joined with false worship , so much as with his presence at the place of it , unless with this intent , to bear witn●ss against it ; nor did he ever advise his disciples so to d● : As for Moses Chair , it was then Christs own Institution , and he had th●n no other Church or Institution on earth . Ans . It was cautelously done to pass by the instances of the Apostles that neither separated , nor commanded one man to separate from all the faulty Churches , Rev. 2.3 . Notwithstanding the Woman Jezab●●s Doctrine , and that of the Nicolaitans , which God hated , and the evil practices ; nor from the Church of Corinth , where were carnal Schisms , Defraudings , Lawsuits before Heathens , incest unlamented , Sacrament disorders , even to excess of drink , disorder in Church Worship , &c. Nor from any other faulty Churches . Meth●n●s th●y that are so strict against any additions in Modes of Worship , should not so much add or alter Scripture , or accuse it of de●●ctiveness , as to suppose the Apostles to have culpably communicated with such Churches , as Co●inth , Coloss , Ephesus , Sardis , Laodicea , Smy●na , &c. yea and with the Jews , who by falsifying the Rules , called it unlawful to eat with the Gentiles , or to eat what Moses Law fo●bad , and not to keep their days : Pauls accomplishing of his Vow in the T●mple , and becoming a Jew to the Jews , was fully contrary to the opponents D●ctrine . And as to Christs practice ; we said before you , that he conformed not to any evil , nor should you But did he not send the Lepers to a false ill-called corrupt sort of Priests , to do by , and with them , what the Law required ? Did he not ord●narily joyn in the Synagogues in their worsh●p ? Could he have leave constantly to teach there , if he had there used to cry down their ordinary worship ? Had the Ceremonious Pharisees no ill forms nor ceremonies in their Worship ? Again , I say , Their long Prayers which were the Cloak of their oppression , were either ●xt●mporate , or forms of Liturgy . If extemporate , then the worst of Hypocrites may constantly use long extemporate Prayers , and it had been no injury to the Spirit in them , to have perswaded them to use Christs form instead of them . If they were Liturgies ▪ then Christ did not separate from such ; no nor reprove them at all , when he reproveth the hypocritical abuse of them : Yea , seemeth to commend them , while he nameth them , as a Cloak to cover evil , which nothing is fit for , that is not good . Obj. He had no oth●r Church ? Ans 1. Then most in England m●y go to the Parish Churches , where they have no other Church to go to . 2. But Christ had twelve Apostles , and 70 , or 72 other Teachers , and many more Disciples ; Were these no Church , nor matter for a Church ? XII . Obj. Page 4. God hath not left it in our power to communicate with any society , when they make that the condition of my Communion , which I am convinced of to be sin to me , that I question whether it be lawful or no , &c. Ans . How oft have I answered this , without any reply ? 1. If they make your consent to any sin , the condition of your Communion , you must avoid it : But if they put no sin on you , to be present when they sin , is a condition to all Church Communion , and to your own praying , who sin in all your self ; you before excepted sins of ordinary infirmity , as not warranting separation : And when did you ever prove that the composing and imposing of the Liturgy , ( much more the Obedient use of the Lords-day part ) is not a sin of infirmity , as much as slandering it and the Churches , and writing such Books as yours ? Accusing is not proving . 2. If your taking it for sin be true , you must forbear it : If you mistake it for sin , which is duty , ( per se or per accidens ) you sin against God , and truth , by your mistake , and by your Omission . God bindeth you to alter your Judgment ; and so he doth , if you take an indifferent thing for sin , tho here it is safest to forbear . An erring Conscience is no Lawmaker ( less then a Magistrate ) , but a misconceiver , and doth , ligare non obligare . XIII . Obj. But none of the things are indeed Worship , which you say men may command ? Ans . That man shall be none of my guide , that makes questions of bare names to seem to the people , as if they were about the matter named . [ They are such accidents of the Worship , which God himself commandeth , as are done in the outward expression of reverence and honour to God , and the more decent and edifying performance of his own Institutions . ] This is the description of them , ( Kneeling , being uncovered , swearing with outward signs , singing in Tunes , Metre , &c. ) . Agree to the thing , and call these Worship or no Worship , as you please . You say , False Worship is no Worship ; If so , it is no bad Worship ; but all faulty Worship is not null . XIV . As for his general talk of me , how much I have promoted Popery , and being for Justification by works , and merit , &c. I give him leave to ease his Stomach without an Answer , and all those to be deceived by him that will take his word , and not read mine ; especially , my Treatise of imputed Righteousness . Page 9. He saith , When the Scripture speaks of justification by faith : Doth any sound Divine or Christians understand it of the act of believing , but that its the obj●ct of faith that justifieth ? Ans . See how strictly these men stick to Scripture , that will have it the sole Law of Circumstances , and yet can deny it , as Expositors , at their pleasure ; when Paul over and over so often saith , That we are justified by faith , and faith is imputed for righteousness ; and Christ saith , Thy faith hath saved thee . It is not faith that they mean , but Christ . It is faith in Christ . There is no faith , but the act or habit of believing , Rom. 3.21 . The righteousness of God , which is by faith of Jesus Christ , on all that believe . 25. Through faith in his blood . 26. The justifier of him which believeth in Jesus : Many ways such will be odiously perverted , if you put Christ instead of Faith ; we are justified by no meritorious cause , but Christs righteousness : but that righteousness justifieth not Infidels , nor any but qualified Receivers ; and Faith is that qualification . Is not this true ? And is it not enough ? If you would preach or write censurious disputes , whether it be the Physitian , or the Medicine , or the Patients taking it , that cureth him ; or the Meat , or the Giver , or the eating it , that feedeth men , take your course : I had rather answer that , and most of your Books w●th groans and tears , than with disputing . XV. As for his threatning to open my faults as fast as I discover them . I may save him the labour , and lament them my self . Two I will confess now , besides all heretofore . 1. I fear I did sometime by connivence , and by too oft preaching against the faults of the Bishops about 1640 , encourage some that were set upon accusing and separating , over much . Tho I ever disliked and opposed that Spirit , and fore●●w what Divisions and Sins attended . 2. Tho , when I took the League and Cov●nant , it was not imposed , but offered to Volunteers , ( and I never gave i● but to one , and kept the Countrie from taking it ) ; yet seeing now , what I saw not then , I repent that I took it . ( Tho being taken , I dare not say that it bindeth not as a secondary Self-Obligation to that which God bound me to before . ) My reasons are ; 1. Because , as after imposed , no knowing man can believe that the thousands of ignorant people that took it , who never understood the controversies of Prelacy , could take it in Truth , Judgment , and Righteousness , and so must sin . 2. Because it cut the Nation in two parts , on pretence of Union , and engaged us against such excellent Persons , as Vsher , Davenant , and against the greatest half of the Land , when we should have united on the terms of the B●ptismal Covenant . 3. Because , being before by God and our Allegiance sufficiently ●lliged to the King , by a further Vow of mens own making against his will , they entangled the consciences of the people about the meaning and the obligation of it ; some thinking it bound them not to him ; and other , that it bound them to fight for him , and yet to oppose the Prelacy that he was for . And now the Law for Corporations binds men to declare that there is no ob●igation at all from that O●th ( either for the King , or against any sin ) . XVI . There are also more than one of my Opponents , who tell me , That because I live in prosperity my self , and suffer not , therefore I am insensible of the case of suffer●rs , and add affliction to the afflicted , and have not due compassion on them . Ans . If this be true , it is a great sin . But 1. why do the same men accuse me for perswading men to avoid sufferings , as they think , by ill means ? It is indeed to save men from suffering by mistake for that which was their duty , to the injury of others , and to reserve their patience for better uses , being like enough to have need of it all . 2. I thank God I am so far from being insensible of the sufferings of the church of Christ throughout the world , that I may say with Paul , Rom. 9.1 . I have continual sorrow in my heart for the wars , blood , c●uelties exercised on them , and much more for their own sin . And sure all the wrath that is agai●st me for labouring to save this Land from division , self-destroying and suffering , 1661. and since , might have been avoided , had I been so self-saving as the accusers feign me . 3. I thank God my suff●rings have been far less than I expected or deserved of God , and not worthy to be called sufferings in comparison of thousands in foreign Lands . And I humbly thank the King that they have been no greater ; but if they had , all had been now almost at an end . I am not willing to name them , lest it seem to savour of impatience , but remembring Pauls example to such accusers ( to the Corinthians ) I will briefly say , 1. From 1639. to 1660. I suffered more assaults and oppositi●n than some of them , by divers penalties for divers duties against iniquity . 2. I think I was the first silenced since the bishops return . And the hot displeasure against me for my pac●ficatory labour 1660. and 1661. is not unknown . 3. Enquire whether there be more virulent and voluminous accusations printed against me , or any one of them . 4 I have had no P●storal maintenance these 23 years , and no Church to maintain me , nor any stipendary Lecture ; and for about 15. years I received no gift of money from any , but one man , which I could not without incivility refuse . 5. When I went twice a day to their Church at Acton , I was sent to the common Gaol ( accused for a Sermon for meekness and obedience , and submission to Government ) and when I built a Chappel , it cost me about 20 l. to get a Minister out of the prison ( that had formerly been imprisoned for the Kings service ) for preaching but one Sermon there , when I was twenty miles off . 6. All that I had , was distrained on , and taken from me , all my books , and the very bed I lay on , for preaching after ( though , bona fide , they had been on just considerations given , or made over to another , and were not mine , but the present use of them only reserved to me ) and this by many warrants , as convict by the oaths of I know not whom , nor when , nor could ever know my accuser or witness , nor was ever summoned to speak for my self , much less to examine the witnesses . 7. I have been put in city and countrey to remove my habitation about twelve times , and my person twenty , in the midst of my pains , to my great cost and trouble . 8. How many thousand pounds my conscience hath cost me in the loss of a bishoprick ( by the Lord Chancellor offered ) since 1661. besides all other losses and charges , I leave you to compute , and ask you which of you hath lost more ? tho I acknowledg with thankfulness to God that I never wanted food or raiment . 9. And while I am now writing for Parochial churches and communion , and know no Law of the land that I break , I am hated ; and while I keep my bed in pain , or my couch , there are new assaults which I think not fit to publish . 10. And all this is but as a flea-biting in comparison of the sufferings which I carry about me by continual pain or langour through age and many uncurable diseases : And under the expectations of death , how small a matter is it to me , whether I dye in a Gaol for my duty to God , or in my hired house , out of which I have very few times gone these two years , but it hath been a prison to me . What difference but conceit and consent ? If our Rulers think it for the interest of any cause or party that I dye in prison , I shall acknowledg Gods will in the effect of theirs , and it shall not be in their power to make me suffer for any thing but my duty to God ( besides faults long ago pardoned , and common humane infirmities ) . And it is not mens calling duty by the name of the most odious sins , that depriveth Martyrs of their reward with God. The false imputation of sin by men , was not the least part of the sufferings of Christ and his Apostles , and the Martyrs in all ages . XVII . And because others as well as I , have need of such admonition , I will tell my Brethren , that our chief work is ( the same with J●bs ) to frustrate the Tempter , and see that in all this we sin not , nor charge God foolishly : And he that only triumpheth in suffering in conscience of his innocency , and doth not know that suffering hath its proper temptations , and studyeth not wisely how to escape them , will suffer more by himself than by all his enemies . I will therefore tell you what are the temptations here which I fear and watch against . 1. Lest the injuries of men should destroy my due charity to them : Tho its true that the setled Study and labour of some , for factious or carnal ends , be to destroy Christian Love , and serious Godliness , and the Souls , Bodies , and estates of the most innocent who they think stand in their way , ( and falsehood , hatred and destruction are the Devils work and image ) and no man must extenuate such crimes , John 8.41 , 42. Yet Diabolisme is not to be imputed to all that men suffer by ; much less to our Govornours , whom we must honour : Paul himself persecuted in ignorance ; and Christ said , they know not what they do ? Much less must we blame others , if truly the cause be only in our selves . 2. Much more must we watch against desires of revenge , or call for fire from Heaven , or imitate any that injure us , by requiring evil with evil , but see that we forgive as we would be forgiven . If they be impenitent , and God forgive them not , their suffering will be heavy enough . 3. We must watch against blinding passions , that it carry us not into contrary extremes , that we may be far enough from sin ; and so lest we fall into sin on the other side . Too few can keep to the line of truth ; most reel like drunkards from side to side . 4. We are much in danger of biassed study ; never studying impartially what may be said against us , and for our opposers , but only all that may be said for us against them . 5. Men that have a good cause are too apt to betray and spoil it by an ill manner of defending it , by mixt errors , ill arguments or passions , to the hardening of the adversaries and afflictors . 6. We must take heed that we fear not suffering wrong , more than doing wrong . He that doth the wro●g is a far greater sufferer or loser , than he that is wronged . Our study must be , that we neither think , wish , speak , or do any wrong to our adversaries and afflictors . 7. We must watch lest the great wickedness of any adversaries should be so much in our eye , as to tempt us to make light of our own sin , because it is not so great as theirs . 8. And we must watch lest the conscience of our good cause or innocency to man , should make us foget our many sins against God , for which he may permit men by injury to afflict us . 9. We must watch lest we judge of the Cause by the Person , and should take truth to be falshood , and good to be evil , because bad men or adversaries own it ; or lest we take falshood to be truth , and evil to be good , because good men hold it ; and lest in Love or Pity we justifie the s●n of any sufferers . 10 But we must specially take heed lest fleshly interest and love of r●ches , liberty or life , should bias and blind our judgments , to take any thing to be Lawful which we think is necessary to our quietness and safety , and to use sinful means to avoid danger and sufferings . These are my Studies , and I think them necessary to all . And the rather when ( it grieveth my heart to see , so ) many carryed by suffering so far from unity , charity , and moderation , that they even joyn with those whom they sharpliest accuse , ( tho by other reasons ) to do their very work , and to destroy that which they think they are promoting . For instance , 1. They blame the Papists and such conformists for saying that the Ministers of the Reformed Churches are no true Ministers : And they say the same . 2. They blame them for saying their Churches are no true Churches . And they say the same . 3. They blame them for recusancy , and saying it is unlawful to communicate with them ; and they say the same . 4. They blame them that silence Ministers , and forbid and hinder them from worshipping God. And they themselves disswade all the land from all publick Church-worship , where none but with those that use the Liturgy can be had . 5. They justly blame Love-killing reproachful Sermons . And they write Love-killing reproachful Books . 6. They justly blame false accusers of particular persons , and they ●●lsely accuse almost all the Churches on Earth , as no true Churches . 7. They are justly for mutual forbearance , and against cruelty ; and they unjustly aggravate the faults of almost all Church-worshippers on earth , as so odious that it must be separated from ; and in a sort excommunicate them 8. They fear Popery is ready to take possession of the Land and Church , and they exhort all Protestants to forsake all the publick churches , which are the Garison of the Protestant cause , that so the gates may be set open , and the Adversaries may find the houses ready swept and garnished , or the Garison emptied for their coming . 9. They are against the ejecting of the Ministers 1662. and yet crying down a Comprehension , they would not have them restored , unless it were on terms that will take in them also ( and who knoweth whom ? ) 10. Yea , the very top of Popery is to appropriate all power of church-government and worship to the Clergy , and to make Magistrates therein but the Clergies Executioners , saying they are only for civil government , for the body , but the Pope and Clergy only for Religious government of the church , and for the souls . And some called by dividing names among us , say , That Christ only and his Ministers have power in such matter● , and that Princes sin if they command but a Translation , a reverent gesture , a church-ornament , and such circumstances ; and that it 's a sin to obey them . When I see that exasperation by afflicters hath cast some sufferers into such self-contradicting ways , I will set on my heart and judgment a double watch in sufferings and abuse . And now Reader I again say , That tho I was dragg'd to this sort of work as against my will , I thank God ( and my sober sort of Opponents ) for calling me to it , that before I dye I might explain my Writings , and not by writing only against one extreme , leave them behind me as snares to tempt men to the other extreme . And I here leave my testimony again against all malignity that would charge these errors on the innocent for a cloak of hatred , and cruelty , and oppression , that I know not one meer Nonconformist that holdeth any of these errors ; and I verily believe that the Independents that I am acquainted with , are true servants of Christ ; and many called Anabaptists , sober , godly Christians ; and that some called Separatists retain Christian charity , and meerly for fear of sinning , flye too far from others . And as for all the rest , it is not mens calling them all Dissenters , nor their suffering together , that can make the innocent responsible for the faulty , who perhaps do more against their mistakes , than ever such Accusers did ( to cure them ) . And I must tell the Abaddons , that the opposition that hath been raised against them among those that I was acquainted with before 1641 , and 1642 , was caused chiefly by the badness of those that made it their trade to preach against strict and serious obedience to God , as Puritanism , and Hypocrisie , and made it the Ladder of their aspiring Ambition to make such odious , and to hunt with jealous severity those that used for mutual help in the ways of Salvation , to pray together ( especially if they fasted ) or consulted how to obey Gods Law : Justacting over the part of the Bps that Martin separated from , described by Sulpitius Severus , rendering all suspected of Priscillianism that were more than others in reading the Scripture , Fasting and Praying ) and clapping on the back with encouragement the Drunkards and prophane ignorant rabble , who in every Town were the haters of the godly Conformists and Nonconformists ; and making these the instruments of their malice , and praising them , and the multitude of ignorant , reading Priests , as more worthy Subjects , than men fearing God. Ri. Hooker in his Preface describeth these ; and he that readeth his Europae Speculum , may know that it was no better Conformists that his most beloved Pup●l , Sir Edwin Sandys was against , while he was one of the zealous Parliamentarians . It 's true that many were very hot against Bishop Laud and the Arminians , and against Dr. Heylin , and Dr. Pockington , for proving Sunday no Sabbath , and calling the Table an Altar , and the Ministers , Priests , and the Sacrament a Sacrifice . Blame not men that had read of their principles and practice , how Rome is a Leech that must live on blood , and cannot stand without it , if they were afraid of coming thither again , or drawing too near it . Upon my knowledg , the debauchery and malignity of many that hunted them , and would not let them stay at home in peace , and the terror of two hundred thousand murdered in Ireland , was it that drove most that ever I knew into the Parliaments Army : And fear doth often drive men to seek for self-defence to that which seemeth next at hand . Had those whom they feared been such as their functions obliged them to be , men of Holiness , Love and Peace , they would have been less prejudiced against the rest ; they bore easily with Dr. Chappel , Mr. May●en , and some other godly charitable men that were reputed Arminians . I here adjoin it to my confessions : 1. That I thought worse of that called Arminianism than I should have done : ( and have proved in my Catholick Theology , ( not yet writ against by any that I know of ) that the difference is not in any great and intolerable error on either side ) . 2. That the practice of them that prophaned the Lords day , and the malignity of their abettors , made me too much offended at the books that called the Lords day no Sabbath , and the Ministers , Priests , and the Table , an Altar , and the Sacrament , a Sacrifice : For I now know that these allegorical Names were usual with the best of the ancient Churches without contradiction : And that the Lords Day is indeed never called the Sabbath in the New Testament ; and that the word Sabbath in the Bible signifieth a day of ceremonial Rest , which was a Jewish Ceremony ; and that all such are by Paul said to be put down , and that the Lords Day is a day of holy Assemblies and rejoicing in spiritual , Evangelical Worship . Ignorance and prejudice in these controversies prevailed , not from argument , but from the experience of the quality of too many that opposed them : They thought it a most improbable thing , that God should illuminate vicious , worldly haters of Godliness , and desert those that most desired to please him . And of late times , what abundance have been driven from the publick Churches , by those that rail at them when they come there , and would get the Birds into their Net by throwing stones and bawling at them ; and would get the fish to take the bait , by beating the Waters . The Bishop of Worcesters silencing me , and preaching as he did , and the imprisonment of many of the people after , affected my old hearers with so much distast of that sort of men , that all the Writings and perswasions I could use , would not reconcile them , nor scarce keep them from falling out with me for my perswasions : And now they have a Worthy , Pious , preaching Bishop , a Man of Love and Peace , and a good Minister , they all crowd the Church , and are like to fall in love with such Bishops . And I must testifie , that with the generality of the Nonconforming Laity , I never found , but it was good preaching and good living that won their Love : And they will honour and follow such men , whether Bishops , Conformists , or Nonconformists . XV. Since the writing of this , I understand that some timerous persons have been afraid to communicate in publick , or joyn with the Liturgy , by hearing that some that have done it , have been so troubled in Conscience , that they have fallen into despair , and a doleful state of trouble . To this I answer , 1. You shall never prove that I have perswaded any Minister , to give Christs body and blood as a Drench to the unwilling , or to make the Sacrament of Love , the Instrument of Malice or Cruelty , or a snare to strangle Souls . It must be that Offence must come , but wo to them by whom it cometh . The old Church made men beg for Church-Communion ; if any withdraw from it , and excommunicate themselves , they did not send them to Goal for their Conversion , to force them to say , that they repent , and to force them to Communion . 2. But I must say , that these Ministers or people that have so ill taught these troubled Souls ( by Doctrine or Example ) as to tempt them to take their Duty ( or a lawful thing ) for so deadly a sin , are far from being guiltless of their Trouble , Distraction or Destruction . If any should make them believe that it were such a dangerous thing to pray by a Book , to sing Davids Psalms , to Communicatie with Presbyterians , not to be rebaptized , not to keep the Saturday Sabbath , &c. And then , when he hath affrighted one to make away himself in melancholy despair , should use this instance as an argument to affright away others also from their duty ; I should think that he were too blame : This were not by good words and fair speeches , but by bad words and deeds , to deceive the hearts of the simple , in causing divisions and offences . 3. I believe I have had with me in my time many scores that have had such melancholly terrors , without any such cause ; and must the matter of their trouble therefore be proved faulty ? I have known those that for many years could have no peace of mind , while they continued Orthodox and Religious ; and at last hearing Irreligious Sadduces , turned ●ilthy , and ranters , and were never under trouble more ( that could be perceived ) but boasted of their peace . Who knoweth not that Melancholly maketh many of the most sound and blameless persons , like Spira , a weary of their lives , thorough desparation . 4. I can tell these Objectors of eminent ancient godly men , that long forbore publick Communion , and at last used it , and have had more comfort and edification , than ever they had before ; and the more for breaking through all the sharp Censures of their former company , in obedience to their Consciences herein : And when they have seen a scandalous person with them at the Sacrament , have gone with Humility , Love , and Tears , and told him of his sin and danger , and had such success as hath comforted them more than avoiding that Communion ever did : yea , I know those that being threatned by violent Pastors , that use Dissenters with rigor , have humbly and submissively so pleaded with them from Scripture and experience , against that Spirit and Way , as hath overcome them , and melted them into a more tender and peaceable mind and course . A Postscript on a Book of Mr. J. F's . SINCE the Writing of all foregoing , I have received another Book sent me by J.F. Whether he will be angry if I expound this J. Faldo , I cannot tell ; I read it over to see if there were any thing in it that should change my Judgment : But I will not promise to do so by any more such . Nor will I so much as tell the Reader what my Judgment said of it in the reading ; much less write down the Answers which readily offered themselves to my understanding as I went on ; for it would but more provoke him , I see , and do the Reader little good , unless by helping him to lament the churches case through the infirmities of such as I and he are ; And the more patiently to bear all our present sufferings , by considering how unable we are to agree what to chuse for our selves , if we had our wills , and how far we should be from desired concord . I will not write a Book to contend on the question , Whether Mr. Faldo or I be the wiser or better man : I am conscious of so much ignorance and badness , that if it may edifie the Reader , let him think of me as ill , as Mr. Faldo and all such men would have him : If he have a good cause , I wish the Reader may be of his mind : If not , I find not my self obliged to talk on against such Writers any further , for his rescue ; nor do I think I can say any thing herein , which at his rate Mr. Faldo cannot answer . I only say , that he and such other have satisfied me , That the Liturgy-VVorship in the common Lords Day office is comparatively purer than the VVorship of many is like to be , who oppose it . His Counsel is good , to know what the VVorship is before I consent to it : I have tried what is in the Liturgy ; I concurred with many better men , 1661 in telling the VVorld , how far we could approve or use it . I find in it much good , and in the ordinary Lords Day common service , no fault that should alienate me from conjunction with the Church therein . To talk of faults in Baptizing , Burial , Marrying , &c ▪ is to say nothing to this point ; I never saw any of these used since I joined with the Church in the Lords-Day VVorship : But how to try Mr. F. his VVorship before-hand , I know not He saith , that if we will be at the cost of it , we may have better worship . And tho he seem displeased for being called a consenter to my catholick communion , either he consented that the Parish-Church-Worship should rather be used than none , or else ( which I suspect ▪ ) when I have read his Book , I cannot understand so much as what he is for or against ; what he meaneth by a Meeting of four , whether he take it for a Church , I know not : I take it not for a Church , that hath no Minister or Sacrament : And if he know of so many score , or hundred thousand Nonconformable Ministers as may guide all the People in England , as such Churches of four , I do not : And if Communion in the Liturgy be simply unlawful , it is so to all the Land. I think there are millions in the Kings Dominions , that can have no other Church-Worship than with the Liturgy , at what rate soever they would purchase it . If his conceits of my self contradictions were as true as they are false , I will tell him other reasons of what he counteth unaccountable , than that I wrote one Book in 1659 , and another in 1684. I am now 25 years elder than I was then ; and it s a shame to learn nothing in so many years : I am more above all worldly hopes than he is : I am past all capacity of them . I have less cause of fear than he : They will hardly confine me to a Prison narrower than my Bed and Couch . My glass is almost run : If I be not more apprehensive of my speedy account , and it awe me not to own nothing but the truth , without dawbing with one extream or other , I am much to blame . And I have seen some more of the experience of both extremes ( tho alas I saw too much before ) . And after all , comparing all together , I leave posterity my thoughts . 1. That I had rather the Church had a Liturgy ( to make all foreknow what Worship they meet for ) with free prayer also in its place , than to have either alone . 2. If they must be separated when the Minister is of tryed soundness and ability ; I had rather have his free prayer alone . But for many others , I had rather have the Liturgy alone . And for instance , Mr. Faldo hath oft told me , that his Church at Barnet ( as I twice said before ) not only omitted , but renounced or opposed all singing of Psalms for many years ; that many of them were of such ill opinions , that he was put to much work to save them from being Quakers ( and at what cost they can now have Church-Meetings when he hath left them , I know not ) . For Mr. Faldo to hold up such a Church even to suffering , and to write against Communion with the Liturgy , where there are able godly Ministers , is either erroneous partiality in him , or I am blind in my unwilling ignorance . To which I further add again , that I cannot expect that men Preach sounder Doctrine than they studiously Write ; nor that they pray more soundly than they preach ; and if Mr. Faldo , and all such Writers , so pray , and so preach , and so live , ( much more if also their Churches have such Maimed Worship as aforesaid , and some of them unordained Ministers , and many Churches men of many contrary doctrines ) I take the Common-prayer Book Worship and Communion , to be much purer than theirs . The Lord make our successors wiser , better , and more peaceable than we are . FINIS Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A27068-e15820 § 1. 
A69195	----	Certaine demandes with their grounds, drawne out of holy writ, and propounded in foro conscientiæ by some religious gentl. vnto the reverend fathers, Richard archbishop of Canterbury, Richard bishop of London, William bishop of Lincolne, Garvase bishop of Worcester, William bishop of Exeter, & Thomas bishop of Peterbourough wherevnto the said gentl. require that it would please their lordships to make a true, plaine, direct, honest and resolute aunswere. 1605 Approx. 182 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 35 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2009-03 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A69195 STC 6572.5 ESTC S112734 23368998 ocm 23368998 13051 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A69195) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 13051) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1475-1640 ; 922:14 or 1812:10) Certaine demandes with their grounds, drawne out of holy writ, and propounded in foro conscientiæ by some religious gentl. vnto the reverend fathers, Richard archbishop of Canterbury, Richard bishop of London, William bishop of Lincolne, Garvase bishop of Worcester, William bishop of Exeter, & Thomas bishop of Peterbourough wherevnto the said gentl. require that it would please their lordships to make a true, plaine, direct, honest and resolute aunswere. Bancroft, Richard, 1544-1610. 68 p. R. Schilders], [Middelburg : 1605. Place of imprint and name of publisher suggested by STC (2nd ed.). Signatures: A-H⁴ I². Title in ornamental border. Errata: p. 68. 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Liturgical objects -- England. 2007-03 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2007-04 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2008-07 John Latta Sampled and proofread 2008-07 John Latta Text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-09 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion CERTAINE DEMANDES WITH their grounds , drawne out of holy Writ , and propounded in foro conscientiae by some religious Gen̄tl . vnto the reverend Fathers , Richard Archbishop of Canterbury , Richard Bishop of London , William Bishop of Lincolne , Garvase Bishop of Worcester , William Bishop of Exeter , & Thomas Bishop of Peterbourough , wherevnto the said Gentl. require that it would please their Lordships to make a true , plaine , direct , honest and resolute aunswere . Isai . 66. 5. Heare the word of the Lord , all ye that tremble at his word , your brethren that hated you , & cast you out for my Names sake , said , let the Lord be glorified : but he shall appeare to your ioy , and they shal be ashamed . Ier. 23. 27 Thinke they to cause my people to forget my Name by their dreames , which they tell every man to his neighbour , as their forefathers have forgotten my Name , for Baall ? Isai . 8. 16. Bind vp the Testimony : seale vp the Law among my disciples . Isai . 8. 20. To the Law and to the Testimony , if they speake not according to this word : it is because there is no light in them . 1605. To the Reverend Fathers , &c. RIght Reverend Fathers , your Lordships having bene a long tyme Divinitie Readers in the schole of Christ , and some of vs also , a long tyme scholers brought vp in the same schole at your feete , give vs leave , we pray you , by way of Question , and not of Definition , to propound these Demaundes following . And as we brieflie and plainly have opposed , so let your Lordships be wel pleased simply and honestly to make vs answere . For we having ( as the men of Beraea did ) searched the scriptures , for our satisfaction in the doubtes propounded , and out of them , not being able to resolve our selves , our desire is , to be resolved , by men of greater skill , and not to rest our selves vpon our owne iudgements . Now then we thus propound , and we thus demaund : FIRST , whether every supreme Christian Magistrate , for every commaund to be given by vertue of his Christian Magistracie , touching the worship of God , ought not to have the word of faith , for the ground and warrant of his commaund ; that so his commaund being of faith , may not be of sinne ? Secondly , whether any supreme Christian Magistrate , by Authoritie of holy Writ , be inabled to devise , ordayne and appropriate a Ministeriall garment for the Ministerie of the Gospell , without putting on of which garment , he may commaund the Ministers of the Gospell , neither publikely to pray , to preach the Worde , nor administer the Sacramentes ? Thirdly , if it be lawfull for a soveraigne Christian Magistrate , by authoritie of holy Writ , to ordayne and appropriate a Ministeriall garment , for the Ministers of the Gospell , then we demaunde , whether by Authoritie of holy Writt , he may ordayne and appropriate such a Ministeriall garment , as in matter and forme , differeth not from that proper and necessarie Priestlie garment , which the Prince , & chief Priest of Idolatrie hath appropriated to be worne by his Jdolatrous Priestes in their Idoll service ? The reason moving vs to make the first demaund , respecteth some others , rather then our selves . For we doubt not , but that every supreme Christian Magistrate , will agnize , that every his mandatorie action concerning the outward worship of God , of what nature , or qualitie soever it be ( if it be not sinne ) must be of faith . And that no such action of his , can be of faith , vnles the same have the word of faith for the ground and warrant thereof . Concerning the second Demaund , For our partes we never yet read of any commaundement , of any word of faith , or of any godly example in holy Writt , whereby the supreme Christian Magistrate , is either directly , or by consequence inabled to ordayne and appropriate a Ministeriall garment , for the Ministers of the Gospell . For howsoever by imitation of the Priestly garmentes , ordayned for the Leviticall Priesthood , vnder the Law , your Lordships may thinke that a ministeriall garment may lawfully be commaunded for the Ministers of the Gospel : neverthelesse , there being an expresse commaundement given vnto Moses , vnder the law , for the one , and no generall or particular rule delivered vnto a Christian Magistrate , in the Gospell , for the other , we desire to be satisfied by your Lordships , whether such an imitation of Leviticall garments , be lawfull , yea or no ? If your Lordships answere , that the institution of a Ministeriall garment , vnder the Gospel , is not by imitatiō from the Leviticall law , then we demaund , from whence the originall and ofspring of that Ministeriall garment came ? If your Lordships answere , that it sprange originally from Mans invention , then you directly charge the Christian Magistrate , to have no rule of faith for the guidance of his conscience in the institution of a ministeriall garment . For your Lordships very well know , and according to this your owne knowledge , have a longe tyme taught vs , that no devise or invention of man , can be a divine rule , for a Christian Magistrates conscience to be guyded by . But aswell for the better clearing of the proper and right vse of the Priestlie garmentes vnder the law , as also of the cleare opening of this poynt , namely , that no reason can bee yeelded , from the vse of the priestly garmentes vnder the law , for the vse of ministeriall garmentes vnder the Gospell , we demaund : Whether your Lordships did ever read in any parte of holy Writ , that the Priestes were commaunded to eate the Passeover in any other garmentes , then in their ordinary garments ? Whether your Lordships did ever read in any parte of holy Writ , that any holy Ministeriall garment was commaunded to bee worne , by him , that cut of the foreskinne of the fleshe vpon the eight day ? Whether your Lordships have read in any place of holy Writt , that the Prophetes had any proper or speciall attire , enioyned vnto them , as a proper and necessarie habite , wherein they should exercise , and without which they might not exercise their propheticall office ? For wee finde it written ; When the Prophet hasted , and tooke the ashes away from his face , that the King of Israll knew him , that he was of the Prophetes . Whereby it seemeth vnto vs , that , that Prophet , rather by his face , then by his proper Propheticall garment , was discerned from other men to bee a Prophet , especially in the execution of that his propheticall function : And this agayne is made more manifest , by those wordes which Saule vsed , when meeting with Samuell in the middest of the gate of one of the Cities of Zuph , he questioned with him after this maner : Tell me , I pray thee , where the Seers house is ? For had the Prophets bene known in those dayes by their proper propheticall garmentes , then needed not Saul in the middest of the gate , and at so solemne a feast , to have enquired of Samuell , for the Seers house . But it is written , that Saule knew that it was Samuell , when an ould man came vp , lapped in a mantell , And Isayah was commanded to loose his sackcloth from his loynes , and to put off his shoe from his foote . And againe it is written : And in that day shall the Prophetes bee ashamed every one of his vision , when he hath prophecied , neither shall they weare a rough garment to deceyve : And lastly , that Iohn the Baptist had his garment of Camels hayre , and that a girdle of a skinne was about his loynes : By all which places it is apparant , that in ould tyme the Prophetes vsed a speciall attyre , or habite , and were accustomed to put vpon them a distinct kinde of garment from other men . We confesse plainly and simply , that your Lordships herein speake the trueth , neither doe we denie , that it is both lawfull and convenient for the Minister of the Gospell , dayly & ordinarily , to weare such a speciall kinde of civile apparell , as whereby he may be knowne from being a Marchant , a Lawier , a Gentleman , or an Husbandman : But what for that ? For to the poynt in question , what resolution is that ? For how followeth is , that the prophet Isayah , the other old prophets , and Iohn Baptist ▪ by their every dayes rough and hayrie apparell , whersoever in the streetes , in the fields , in the Markets , in the schooles , in the gates , in the Court , or in the countrey , they were seene , how ( we say ) doeth it follwe ( they being knowne by their speciall garments to be of the number of the prophetes ) that therefore whensoever in the Temple , in the Synagogue , or in any other place , wherin they prophesied , that they put vpon that their ordinary and vsuall garment , some other garment , necessarily and properly to be worne in their propheticall office ? and without which necessary and propheticall garment , it was not lawfull for them to prophesie ? If your Lordships could make good your obiection by the holy scriptures , you should then have some colour from the example of the old prophets , to affirme that extraordinary prophets , ( if there were any in our times ) might weare some rough and haytie garments ; But to alleadge these examples , as sufficient authorities for ordinary Pastours & Teachers , that they may or ought to weare proper ministeriall garments , whensoever they pray , preache the word or administer the Sacraments , is to alleadge quidlibet pro quolibet ? insteed of a kernell , to give a nutshale , and to imagine as Saul imagined , that he saw Samuell when he saw Satan , who to blind Sauls eyes , had put vpon him the forme of an old man lapped in a Mantell . And yet nevertheles we grant that from the place of Samuell , we may learne thus much : viz. If any person in our age were so sottish , as to seek vnto a Witche , to have the body of an Archbishop raysed vp ; that Satan in this case , by lapping him selfe in an Archbishops Pall , Rochet and square Cap , might transforme him selfe to the shape and likenes of Thomas Beckett , though he be long since dead . As for that which is alleadged out of the prophesie of Isaiah , it proveth directly that his garment of Sackcloth , was not any proper propheticall garment , but only such an ordinary garment , as whereby in his common and daily attire , his condition of being a Prophet , was distinguished from the apparrell of other men , who were no Prophetes . For if by the commandment of loosing the sackcloth from his loynes , the Lord had meant a proper propheticall Mantell or garment , which was only vsuall in the execution of his propheticall function , then might the same well-inough have bene put of , and yet Jsaiah not have bene naked , and his buttocks vncovered . Besides , if by Isaiahs garment , a proper propheticall garment in the exercise of Prophesie , and not a speciall ordinary garment , common with other Prophets in their daily vse , had bene noted ; then by Isaiahs shoes likewise , why should not a proper & propheticall kind of shoes be vnderstood ? And if so , why then by this place might not Ministers be appointed , ( whensoever they pray , preache or minister the Sacramentes ) to have proper ministeriall shoes or pantofles vpon their feete , aswell as proper ministeriall Surplices or Copes vpon their backes ? The place out of Zacharie , and that argument from Iohn Baptists apparell , be of like interpretation with that of Esai . And that out of Zachary , what ells proveth it , but that the false Prophets ordinarily did weare some such maner of speciall rough garments , as were after the forme of ordinary garments , worne by the true Prophets ? and that those false Prophets , for deceiving of the people , by colour of their garments , should have those garments , ( as it were ) plucked over their eares , and no more be suffered by their garmentes , to make their doctrine seeme more holy : seeing they were never sent from God , to bee Prophets for the good of his people , but might still have continewed husbandmen or heards men , as not having any true propheticall doctrine , but only making a shew their of by their outward rough garments , as if their garments had bene sufficient to have approved their prophesies ? In like maner as at this day a number of idole ministers , have naught ▪ ells to approve them to be ministers , but only that they weare a large whit Surplice with two wide sleeves , and a litle blacke Cappe with foure narrowe corners . Nay , againe we demand , whether your Lordships have read in holy Writt , that King David deviding Offices to the sonnes of Levie , & separating some to be Singers , some to be Porters , and some to be over the Treasures of the House of God , according to the commandement of the Lord , by the hands of the Prophets Samuell , Gad and Nathan , did appoint any other songsterlike , porterlike or other ministerlike garments , to be worne by these Officers in the service of the House of God , then such only as were appointed by the Law. And if your Lordships can produce no place out of holy Writt for the proofe of these questions ; then from the example of celebrating the Passover , ministring Circumcision , Prophesying by the Prophets , and from services done by the Singers , Porters and Treasures , without other ministeriall garments then were appointed to be vnder the Lawe : We demand what good proofe your Lordships can make out of holy Writt , that ministers of the Gospell may be commanded , not to pray , not to preach , and not to administer the Sacraments without ministeriall garments , not appointed by God , but by man in the time of the Gospell ? And yet touching certaine holy garments , vsed by the Priestes and Levites vnder the Law , your Lordships have not read ( as we suppose ) that either Moyses or Aaron , did appoint any other holy garments for the Priests or Levits in their priestly or Leviticall Offices , then such only as the Lord him selfe commanded to be made and worne ; which holy & Priestly garments also , you reade that they might not be worne by the Priests or Levites in the vtter Court , but only in the holy place , when they came to minister in the Priestes and Levites Office before the Lord. And so from the proportion of the Ministery of the Priesthood vnder the Law , vnto the ministerie of faith vnder the Gospell , we question thus : If God the only author of the Priesthood vnder the Law , were the only author of the Priests holy and ministeriall garments , vnder the Law , why should not the same God , being the holy author of the ministerie of the Gospell , be likewise the only author of ministeriall garments vnder the Gospell ? For otherwise how should the Ministers perfectly vnderstand , that the wearing of ministeriall garments in the time of the Gospell , bee aswell pleasing to the Lorde , as were the Priests holy garments in the time of the Law ? Besides , for so much as the Priests when they came out of the inner Court even to the vtter Court to the people , and approched to those things which were for the people , were then commaunded to put of their holy and Lynen garments , and to put on their other garments , namely , their Wollen garments which they had put of when they entered into the inner Court. From whence we againe demande , what reason your Lordships can yeald out of holy Writt , that the Ministers of the Gospell when they approche to pray , to preach the Word & to administer the Sacramēts , which are things for the people vnder the Gospell , should put vpon them ministeriall Lynen garments ? And not rather from the identitie of reason and equitie of that order , which was given to the Priestes vnder the Law , challendge a free and liberall vse of their ministerie in their ordinarie garmentes ? We meane such comly and cleanly wollen garmentes , as by the law , vse , or custome of the countrie , wherein they live , may lawfully be worne . Where it is written that David had on him a lynen garmēt , as all the Levites that bare the Arke , & the singers : If your Lordships from this place shal vrge , that lynen garments were ordinarily worne by the Levites , among the people , when they approched to the services , which were for the people , you shall in this case but wrest the holy scriptures , to an other sense then rightly can be gathered from the same , because the same your sense directly repugneth the aforesaid testimonie of the Prophet Ezekiell : neither indeed doeth this place any more prove , the ordinarie wearing of lynen garmentes , by the Levites among the people , in the vtter courte , then it doeth prove the ordinarie wearing of an Ephod by King David , whensoever he came into the Temple to worship . The reason then of the Levites wearing of lynen garmentes at this tyme , being in the presence of the Arke of the covenant of the Lord which was now to be remooved from the house of Obed Edom , and to be caried vpon the shoulders of the sonnes of Koath , and to bee attended vpon by other of the Levites their brethren , in holy garments , it seemeth playne that this wearing of holy garmentes , in this peculiar service thus performed to the Lord , in the presence of the Arke , excludeth the wearing of the same garmentes in common services done among the people . Besides , that the Singers and Levites did not at any time minister in their lynen garmentes , among the people , is apparant . For that the proper place of their ministration was before the Arke in the inner court ; And this is evident by the scriptures : For it is written , that a Heman and Asaph and Ethan were singers , and that the King left b before the Arke of the Lords covenant , Asaph the chiefe and his brethren to minister continually before the Arke , that which was to be done every day , to singe with c instrumentes , and to lift vp their voyce with ioye , and to d prayse the Lord , because his mercy endureth for ever : yea and this manner of singing and ministring before the Arke in the Tabernacle of the congregation did not only continew vntill e Salomon had built the house of the Lord in Ierusalem , but then also , the singers continewed their office according to their custome for it is written thus . And the f Levites the singers of all sortes , as of Asaph , of Heman , and Ieduthun , and of their sonns , and of their brethren being clad in fyne Lynen , stood with Cymbales and with Vyolles , and Harpes , at the East end of the Altar , and with them an hundred and twentye priestes , blowinge which Trumpettes , vnles then your Lordships be able to proue by holy wrytt , that the inner courte , or holy place , wherein the Altar stood , was not a place separated for the preistes , & Levites alone , but that the people as well , as the Priestes and Levites , came into the same place , to worshipp before the Arke , wee may bouldly ( as wee thinke ) affirme that you shall never be able to prove , that the Priestes or Levites vnder the law , did at any tyme weare any Ministerial garments , when they approched into their vtter court , to the people , to doe services for the people . Among the reasons ( why the Priestes vnder the law were commanded to put on their lynen garmentes when they ministred in the sanctuarie and at the table ) one reason among other is rendered to bee this : namely , for that the garmentes were holy garmentes , as having from the God of holynes an holy institution . The reason also why the priestes were commaunded to put of their lynen garmentes , and to put on other wollen garmentes , when they approched to those thinges which were for the people , is this : viz. for that they should not sanctifie the people with their garmentes : From which two reasons , we question thus : First , seeing vnder the Ministerie of the Gospell , the Ministers therof , have neither holy place , nor inner court , separated from the people ; neither any garmentes , by any holy institution , appointed by the name of holy garmentes to minister in ; we demaund , what authoritie your Lordships can alleadge out of holy Writt , that it should not bee as comely and as decent a thinge , for the Ministers of the Gospell , to approche vnto prayer , preaching the worde , and administring the Sacramentes ( which are things for the people vnder the Gospell ) without any Ministeriall garmentes devised , and instituted only by man : as it was for the Priestes to approch vnto the like things , which were for the people vnder the Law , without those holy garmentes , which were ordayned by God ? Secondly , the reason of the prohibition of the Priestes putting on their holy and priestly garmentes , when they approched into the vtter court to those things which were for the people : being this : Namelie , that they should not sanctifie the people with their garmentes ; wee demaunde with what reason deduced from holy Writt , you can impugne this position , viz. That our Saviour Christ ( to preserve the equitie and integritie of that prohibition , aswell in the tyme of the Gospell , as in the tyme of the Law , did not institute any proper ministeriall garmentes , for the Apostles , Evangelistes , Prophetes , Doers of Myracles , or Teachers , to exercise anie their ministeriall function in , least the people putting an opinion of holynes in their garmentes , might thinke the doing of myracles , preaching the worde , prophecying , or ministring the Sacramentes , to be sanctified by their garmentes ? And therefore from the manner of preaching the worde , administring Baptisme , celebrating the Lordes Supper , doing Myracles , and praying by the Apostles , Evangelistes , Prophetes , &c. without any proper ministeriall garmentes : we question thus : In asmuch as Iohn Baptist did both crye in the wildernes , and baptise in Iorden , having vpon him none other proper ministeriall garmentes , but onely his ordinarie garment , of Camells hayre , with a girdle of a skinne about his loynes : And seeing the Apostles did neither preache the worde , nor administer the Sacramentes , nor doe myracles , amonge the people , in any other garmentes , then in their vsuall and ordinarie garmentes . And besides , seeing the Apostles , did not institute or commaunde any proper ministeriall garmentes for their successors , namely for Bishoppes , Pastours and Teachers to minister in : seeing ( we say ) these things can not be prooved out of holy writt to be otherwise , our desire is to be satisfied from your Lordships , by some holy rule of faith , why Bishops , Pastors , and Teachers , so long after the Apostles tymes , should be commaunded , to weare any other forme or manner of garmentes in their holy ministrations , then such their ordinarie and vsuall garmentes , ( being comelie and cleanly garmentes ) as by custome , or law of the Countrey , they vsually weare . For if all ordinarie garmentes be sanctified a like , to minister , and people , by the worde of God and prayer , as all ordinarie meates and drinkes be , we demand , what reason your Lordships can alleadge out of holy writt , that the publike service , accomplished by the Minister , in his ordinarie apparell , should not be as acceptable to the Lord , as is the publique service performed by the people , in their ordinarie garmentes . And if your Lordships can affoord vs no reason out of holy Writt , why offering vp of prayers , preaching the Worde , or administring the Sacramentes , should be lesse acceptable to the Lord , when the same are performed in an ordinarie garment , and not in a proper ministeriall garment : we then demaunde , whether your Lordships by any rule of holy Writ , can prove vnto vs , that the worde preached , Sacraments administred , and prayers offered vp in a proper ministerial , rather then in an ordinary garment , can be of more efficacie , profit or edification vnto men ? For as the manifestation of the spirit is given to every man to profit withall , so must all things which are done in the Church , bee done to the vse , benefite and profite of the Church : Vnto these two latter questions , if your Lordships shall answere , that the ministration of the Worde and Sacramentes , can not be proved by holy Writ , to bee in it owne nature , either more acceptable to the Lord , or of more efficacie , profite and edification vnto men , when the same is accomplished by a Minister , wearing only his ordinarie garment : And yet notwithstanding shall tell vs , that the not wearinge of a proper ministeriall garment in the service of prayer , preaching the Worde , and ministring the Sacraments , may be both displeasing to God , & hurtful to the people , vpon circumstance & contempt of the Churches , or Magistrates commaund : Then we replie and affirme , that you begge the thing in question , driving vs ▪ backe agayne , to seeke your resolution of that doubt , which we moved above , in the second principall demand : For vnlesse the Church and sovereigne Christian Magistrate , be inabled by holy Writt to commaund a proper ministerial garment vnder the Gospell , the not wearing of such a proper ministeriall garment , commaunded by the Magistrate , or by the Church , can be neither an offence to God , nor hurtfull to the people . Besides if neither the Church nor Magistrate , have any certaine rule out of holy Writt , for the resolution of faith , in commanding a proper ministeriall garment ; Then lyeth the same Ministeriall garment vnder a iust suspition of abomination , as being a thing invented by man : And then also how should a Minister beeing bound to take for his marke the only will of God , as it is manifested & opened vnto him in the word , be excusable in foro conscientiae , if in the execution of his ministerie , he may fashion him selfe to the invention of man ? But the preaching of the worde of God , is of greater moment and importance , then that the same should be left of for the not vsing of a proper ministeriall garment . That is true indeed ( say wee ) if a Minister by the vse of such a garment should not sinne ? But that a Minister not fully perswaded in his minde of the lawfull vse of a proper ministeriall garment , may weare it doubtingly , and so sinne , to the end he may preache the Worde : we doubte greatly whether your Lordships bee able to prove this out of holy Writt & of this we pray your resolutions ? For how should a man doe evill that good may come thereby , when as the Scripture teacheth vs , that his damnation is iust , that so doeth ? The not preaching of the word then , being no sinne in a Minister , when for the keeping of a good cōscience , in not vsing a proper ministeriall garment , he is commanded by a superiour power not to preach the word ; we demand herevpon , whether your Lordships sinne not rather in pressing , then the Minister in refusing this kinde of Ministeriall garment . And seeing wee are fallen by occasion vpon this comparison of preaching the worde , and wearing a proper ministeriall garment , we pray your Lordships patiently to heare , and quietly to answere our demandes ? Our demand then , is whether in your iudgements , the preaching of the word be not in it owne nature more precious , more needfull and more profitable for the people , then can bee the wearing of a proper ministeriall garment ? If your Lordships should preferre the wearing of such a ministeriall garment to the preaching of the worde , in this case , if we should hould our peace , the very stones might cry out shame vpon our faces ; for we are taught out of holy Writt , that Marie was commended before Martha , for that shee sitting at the feete of Iesus to heare him preach the word , had chosen the better parte , even one thing that was necessary , and which might not be taken from her . If your Lordships answere ( as the trueth is ) that the preaching of the word , is more precious , needfull and profitable for the Church , then is the wearing of a proper ministeriall garment ; Then wee demand why grave , learned and Godly Preachers , whom the King him selfe confesseth to love and to honor , have bene put to the worse , commanded to silence , suspended & excommunicated for the not wearing of such a Ministeriall garment , when as notwithstanding light , lascivious , and vnlearned Ministers no-preachers , ( if so be they have worne a proper ministeriall garment ) have bene suffered quietly to enioy their functions , and their benefices ? But all Preachers were never silenced , only certaine Preachers not submitting them selves to the wearing of a ministeriall garment according to the orders and lawes of the Church are displaced . Well bee it so ? what other thing doeth this argue , but that the not wearing of a ministerall garment , is reputed to bee a sinne more haynous then is the not preaching of the word ? But there are a multitude of Ministers who be not able to preach the worde ; whereas there is not one preacher but he is able to put on a ministeriall garment : What then ? did ever any Preacher ( we praye you ) when hee was made a Minister , bind him selfe by a solemne vowe to weare a ministeriall garment ? No. And did not every Minister when he was made a Minister , binde him selfe by a solemne vowe to preache the worde ? Yea : And how then cometh it to passe , ( vnlesse the wearing of a ministeriall garment , bee reputed more precious then is the preaching of the Worde ) that the not wearing of the one by a Preacher , and the not preaching of the other by a Minister , should bee offences , in degree of peyne vnmatchable ? especially when as the not preaching is a breache of the ordinance of God , and the not wearing of a Ministeriall garment , but a transgression of the lawe of man ? When any husbandman shall have sowen cleane and pure wheate in his field , if the envious man shall sowe tares , in this case , if the husbandman plucke vp the wheate , and let the tares growe , would you commend his husbandrie ? But your Lordships will sow the fieldes with purer Wheate , and provide men of softer Spirits , lesse Novelous , better affected to the state , and of more discretion and maturitie of iudgement . Indeed if it may please your Lordships , this is soone saide ; but by your leaves , the thing is not so sone done ; yea and besides we demand what good securitie your Lordships can give vnto the King and State in this case ? For in a matter of so great danger , as is the perill of the soules of the Kinges subiectes , it were no good saftie ( in our opinion , ) to trust your bare wordes for the time to come ; when as in time past vpon pretence of the wante of able & preaching Ministers , ye have thought it fitt , rather then to have none at all , to reteyne a number of vnpreaching ministers , knowne to bee no better then idle beastes and flow bellies . And if your Lordships already have such a sufficient number of learned , sober , wise and softe spirited Preachers , to bee disposed vpon vacant benefices at your commaunde , as that you bee able to furnishe the Churches of all those ministers , whom you intend to deprive , for not conformitie vpon an instant : wee praye your Lordshippes to resolve the Kinge what charitie you have carryed towarde his people in time past , when you have collated ( for a great parte ) the benifices of your owne giftes , either vpon no Preachers , or at leastwise vpon strawberie preachers ; but if your Lordshippes intende hereafter to sende foorth Preachers , that shall yeeld beryes , not once in the yeare onely , but at the least strawe once every moneth ; then wee demande ? what thankes you would con̄ your Stewardes , in case they should provide no better Cookes for the dressing of your dyners , then such onely , as vnder one whole monethes space , could not dispatch the roasting of an egge , or frying of a smelt ? If your Lordships thinke that the preaching Ministers , not yealding to the Christian Magistrates authoritie , in the not vsing of this ministeriall ( falsly by you so called indifferent ) apparell , by such their disobedience , may bee an example vnto the people , of like disobedience in other matters : Then wee demande , whether your Lordshippes carry not a testimonie in your owne consciences , that their abstayning from the vse of Ministeriall apparrell , proceede not rather from an honest and good hearte , to the obedience of GOD , then of any evill affection conceyved against the authoritie of the Magistrate ? for before the Kingdome of England was lawfully invested in the Royal person of our Soveraine Lord King IAMES , did not sundry of them abide many sharpe reproches and bitter tauntes , for their Scotizing , and defending the single forme of church policie , vpheld by the Kings authoritie in the Realme of Scotland ? yea and doe not the same Ministers now at this day hartily and devoutly pray , for the life and prosperitie of the King , the Queene , the noble yong Prince , and all other the Kings Royall progenie ? yea and excepting this one point of their not conformitie vnto the ceremonies ( wherein they alleadge for them selves , the conscience of the vnlawfulnes and inconvenience of the said ceremonies ) are they not knowne to be men worthy to be respected as the Ministers of Christ ? men of good reputation for learning ? of honest conversation ? and peaceable among their neighbours ? and men very obedient ( this one thing excepted ) to all authoritie ? by whose good doctrine also , and example of life , the Magistrates in every Countie have found it more easie to continew the common people in the dewties of their subiection , and loyaltie to the supreme power ? Nay , which is more at this very instant , doe not they extraordinarily declare and testifie their love , their loyaltie and their fidelitie vnto the King , when by their loanes they supply the Kings want , though in the meane time they them selves want , and be driven to borrow to supply their owne necessities ? if then in these great and waightie things , appertaining to the dignitie of the Kings Crowne , they carefully and holily approve thē selves to be both teachers & followers of the Apostles doctrine , would they not aswell ( trow you ) by the wearing of a ministeriall garment , subiect their neckes to the Kings authoritie , if by a greater band of faith & obedience to the most high and mightie God , they were not drawne to the not wearing thereof ? Touching the reason yealded by some , that ministeriall apparell , is to distinguish the minister from other men : it seemeth vnto vs to be a reason altogether without reason : for albeit the outward forme of a Ministers ordinary apparell may lawfully and expediently differ from the outward fashion of apparell common to other men , and so the Ministers person by his apparell may be knowne vnto all such as know him not by face : Neverthelesse it is void of all sense , that his ministeriall apparell , in the publike service of that Church , whereof he is a Minister , should bee an inseparable note , to distinguish his person , from the persons of every of his people : For sithence by name , by face , by office , by place , by voice , yea by ordinary apparrell also , every minister is , or ought to be known vnto his people , what a kind of foundnesse is it , to imagine that a minister can better be knowne by wearing of a ministeriall garment , then by the dewe execution of his ministeriall function . Concerning the reason of decencie and comlines vrged by some , for the vse of a white ministeriall garment , in the ministerie of the Gospell , because the same cometh more aptly to bee discussed in the question following , we will not trouble your Lordships at this time with any other matter , about the two first demandes : And therefore we will proceede to the thirde ; which for your Lordships better remembrance , we hold it not amisse to repeate againe . If it bee lawfull for a soveraine Magistrate , by authoritie of holy writt , to ordeine and appropriate a ministeriall garment , for the ministers of the Gospell , then we demand , whether by authoritie of holy Writt , he may ordayne and appropriate such a ministeriall garment ▪ as in matter , forme and specie differeth not from that ministeriall garment , which by the high Priest & chiefe Prince of idolatry , hath bene , and still is ordeyned and appropriated to be a necessary priestly garment , for his idolatrous Priests , in their idoll service ? And to the end your Lordships may perceave our demands to bee made cōscionably & not humorously , or novelously , we have thought necessary to lay downe and annex certaine principles or canons out of holy Writ , whervpon our Demands and reasons are grounded , which grounds and reasons also , we extend against crossing in Baptisme , and Kneeling in the acte of receving the Communion . The first ground . The graven images of their Gods , shall ye burne with fire , and covet not the silver and gold that is on them , nor take it to thee , least thou be snared therewith , for it is an abhomination . Bring not therefore abhomination into thine house , least thou bee accursed like it , but vtterly abhorre it , and counte it most abhominable , for it is accursed . There shall cleave nothing of the damned thing to thine hands ; All they that make any image are vanitie , and their delectable things shall nothing profite . And shall polute the covering of the images of silver , and the riche ornaments of gold , and cast them away , as a menstruous cloth , and thou shalt say vnto it , get thee hence . Neither be ye idolaters , as some of them were . Babes keepe your selves from idoles . From these grounds of the Law , the Prophets , and the Gospell , wee demand whether your Lordships against these , can oppose any other rules of holy Writt , to prove that any Christian Magistrate , Christian Minister , or Christian people may be blamelesse and without fault , in foro conscientiae , if in the publike and outward worship of God , either he shall command , or they shall vse , any the relickes , monuments or memorialls , any the delectable , vaine , and vnprofitable things , some times , or now apperteyning to the idolatrous sacrifice of that great and knowne idole , the Popish Masse . For if every commandement of the first Table of the Law , be a way , and bee a path out of the which no Christian ought to turne a side , either to the right hand , or to the left ; but in the which every Christian is bound aswell in the time of the Gospell , as every Israelite was bound in the time of the Lawe to walke ; then not onely that great Idoll of the Popish Masse it selfe , sett vp and worshipped in the time of the Gospell ; but then also , all relickes , monuments , memorialls and delectable things with their accessaries , appendices , and appurtinances , as a menstrous cloth , ought to be cast away , and to bee bidden get ye hence ; especially we say in the publike service and worship of the true God. For by how much more , the glorie of the Sonne , who spake from heaven , doeth farre excell the honour of a servant , which spake on earth , by so much the more ought that Idoll & that Idolatrie , which is set vp and committed in the time of the Gospell , be esteemed more vile and detestable , then was that Idoll and that Idolatrie set vp and committed in the time of the law . The reasons of the prohibition of coveting , and of taking any the images , their coverings , their ornaments ▪ their golde and their silver , vnder the Law were in number foure : Namely : First they were an abhomination to the Lord. Then : A feare of the peoples being snared . Thirdly , a threat of being accursed : And lastly , for that they were vaine , and could nothing profite . If then that great Idoll of the Popish Masse , with all the Copes , Vestiments , Surplices , Crosses , Kneelings , Candles and other memorialls and delectable things , invented for the adorning and pompe thereof , be abhominable and accursed in the sight of God , bee also vaine and can nothing profit men : If also the Magistrate , the Ministers and people beleeving the Gospel , may be snared , and shal be accursed after the maner of the Israelites , if so be without warrant from holy Writt , they shall vse these things in the worship of God ; we demand , whether from the doctrine of the Law , the Prophets , and the Gospell , we may not conclude thus : With whatsoever things , either Magistrate , Minister , or people may be snared , and for the vse of whatsoever things they may be accursed , those things may not lawfully be commanded or vsed in the publike worship of God. But aswell the Magistrate as the Ministers and people may then be snared , and shal be accursed with , and for the command and vse of Copes , Surplices , Crosses , &c. when in the publike worship of God , they be commanded and vsed without warrant of his word : Therefore Copes , Surplices , Crosses , &c. may not be commanded nor vsed in the publike worship of God , without warrant of his word . If your Lordships denie the assumpt ; and answere , that Copes , Surplices , Crosses , &c. commanded and vsed for the adorning , and bewtifying of that great Idoll the Masse , bee in their owne nature thinges indifferent , and none other otherwise can be accursed or be a snare to any Christian Magistrate , Minister or people , then as they bee imployed to the vse and service of that Idoll ; and in this regarde , their free and liberall vse is no more now forbidden , then is the eating of meates sacrificed vnto Idolls , and that therefore all feare of being snared and accursed , doeth cease , because wee have free libertie by the word for the eating of meates sacrificed vnto Idolls ; then herevnto wee replie , that your answere is very vnsufficient and vncertaine , and without any strength of reason , drawne from holie Writt . For though wee grant that nothing is vncleane of it selfe , and that we ought not to accompt that polluted , which God hath purified : neverthelesse we pray your Lordships to resolve vs by holy Writt , that God hath by his worde aswell purified Copes , Surplices , Crosses , &c. for the outward vse of his publike worship , as by his word hee hath purified meates sacrificed vnto idols , for the private vse of mans life . When Peter had fastened his eyes vpon the sheete , let downe from heaven by the foure corners , he cōsidered and saw foure footed beasts of the earth , and wilde beasts , and creeping things , and foules of the heaven , which were all the good creatures of God , and which also in the beginning were created for the foode of man : only for a time while Israell was vnder the Schoolmaistership of the Lawe , certayne of these creatures were forbidden to be eaten , not because they were in their owne nature evill , or vncleane , but only because they were made vncleane for a time , by prohibition : And therefore when the fulnesse of time was come , and that Christ the ende of the Lawe , was rysen from the dead , the law of not eating meates forbidden ceased : And by letting downe the sheete , and commandement given to Peter , to slay and to eate , Peter was assured that all those meates were restored to their primarie vse , integritie , and puritie . And therefore these creatures being in their owne originall nature good ; and in the beginning sanctified by the Lord , to the vse of mans life , howsoever the idolaters prophanely & abusively did sacrifice them vnto their idoles , yet could those idoles never so pullute them by their abuse , as that they might vtterly take away the good and profitable vse , for the which they were first created . But that Copes , Surplices , Crosses , Candles , and other memorialls and delectable things , authorised by that man of sinne , for the pompous service of his great idoll , the Masse , bee of the nature of meates , or of the nature of gold and silver , ( howsoever sacrificed vnto idolls ) we deny . For first : meates , gold and silver in their owne nature , were by creation ( as earst was saide ) good , and to the ende wherevnto they were created ever blessed of God , and never accursed ; whereas on the other side , no reliques , monuments , or memorials of any idolatrie , were ever blessed , but ever accursed . Secondly , they were never in their first originall good or profitable , no not for that vse wherevpon they were imployed : for as the Idole it selfe , is vayne , vnprofitable , polluted and abhominable , yea nothing in respect of that thing which it representeth , even so also bee all the accessories and appurtenances thereof , damned and execrable . Thirdly , these reliques , monumentes and memorialls of Idolatrie , being not the workes of God , created in the beginning for the vse of man , but the workes of mens handes , applied to the service of an Idol , are not by the prohibition of God , vncleane , and polluted only for a tyme , as certeyne meates were , but are evermore by a perpetuall decree , things damned and accursed for the vse of any service vnto God : And therefore howsoever ( as meates are vsually solde in the shambles ) they may be sold in a spinsters , or in an Embrotherers shopp , and may be vsed by man , to some benefite of this life : yet that they may be translated from the service of an Idol , to the worship of the trew God , without warrant of being sanctified to that vse , by the worde of God , or that the Ministers and people professing the gospell , may as intyrely & freely vse and receive them in the outward worship of the trewe God , as the popish priestes and people did in the service of their great Idoll the Masse ; we deny : And whether you be able to prooue the contrarie out of holy Writ , we demaund your resolutions ? And thus much for confirmation of the assumption of our former request : it followeth that we demaund , whether your Lordships by anie rule out of holy Writ , be able to repugne these conclusions following . First . All Idolls with all their ornamentes , and all their appurtenances , by the doctrine of holy Scriptures , as a menstruous cloth , are to be cast away and to be bidden get you hence : But the Popish Masse is an Idoll , and all the Copes , Surplices , Crosses , Candles , &c. have bene , and yet be , ornamentes and appurtenances vnto that Idole of the popish Masse : Therefore the popish Masse , and all Copes , Surplices , Crosses , Candles , &c. as a menstruous cloth are to be cast away , and to be bidden gett you hence . Secōdly . Whatsoever hath bene first invented by man , and afterward appropried by authoritie of the great whore , to be a note , token , badge or ensigne vnto all her lovers , in the acte of her fornication , the same ought not to be any note , token , badge , or ensigne vnto the spouse of Christ , or any her lovers , in the acte of the outward worship of the true God. But all Copes , Surplices , Crossings have bene first invēted by man , & appropried by authoritie of the great whore , to be notes , tokens , badges , and ensignes vnto all her lovers in the acte of her fornication : Therefore no Copes , Surplices , Crosses , &c. ought to be any badge , token or ensigne , to the Spouse of Christ , or any her lovers , in the acte of the worship of the true God. If your Lordships deny the truth of the first propositiō of the first argument to be proved by those places before quoted out of the law , the Prophetes and Apostles , then we pray your Lordships to yeeld vs some reason , from other places of holy Writt , for the confirmation of such your negation ? For vnto vs the letter of the scriptures , seeme to be very direct & plaine to the purpose , for the which we have alleadged them : If your Lordships deny the consequence of the first proposition , of the second argument , and affirme that the spouse of Christ , and her lovers may lawfully weare in the outward acte of the worship of the true God , the notes , tokens , badges and ensignes , commanded by the great whore to be worne in the acte of her fornication ; then we demand , by what places of holy Writ your Lordships be able to prove this your affirmation ? in the meane time give vs leave , according to the measure of our skill , to discharge the assum●t : of the first argument , from such error , as happily at the first view may seeme in your opinions , to bee conteyned therein . If then your Lordships shall challenge the assumpt : of the first argument , either of particularitie , or ambiguitie of the wordes ( Copes , Surplices , Crosses , &c. ) for that all Copes , Surplices , Crosses , &c. have not bene , ●e now be ornamentes , and appurtenances vnto that great Idoll of the Masse , because some Copes , Surplices , Crosses , &c. be ornamentes and solemnites for the administration of Baptisme , celebration of the Lords Supper , and other divine services ; then for the adnulling aswell of your Lordships distinction , as for the overthrow of all , both new and ould Copes , Surplices , Crosses , &c. to be vsed by the Spouse , and her lovers , in the acte of the worship of the true God , wee propound vnto your Lordships these groundes of holy Writt following , wherevnto also we demaund your resolutions ? Beware least thou be taken in a snare after them after that they bee destroyed before thee , & least thou aske after their gods , saying , how did these nations serve their gods , that I may do so likewise , thou shalt not do so vnto the Lord thy God. Ye are the children of the Lord your God , you shall not cut your selves nor make you any baldnes betweene your eyes for the dead : for thou art an holy people , vnto the Lord thy God , and the Lord hath chosen thee to be a precious people vnto him selfe , above all the people that are vpon the earth . What fellowship hath righteousnes with vnrighteousnes ? what communion hath light with darknes ? what concord hath Christ with Beliall , or what parte hath the beleever with the infidell ? and what agreement hath the temple of God , with Idolls ? Come I will shewe thee the damnation of the great whore , that fitteth vpon many Waters ; with whom have committed fornication the Kings of the earth , and the inhabitants of the earth are drunken with the wine of her fornication . And I sawe seates , and I sawe the soules of them that were dead for the witnes of Iesus , and for the word of God , and which did not worship the beast , neither his image , neither had taken his marke vpon their forheads , or on their handes . From these grounds of holy Writ , taken out of the law , we demand , whether the worship of every Idoll , and false god , or not , rather every superstitious , and false worship of the true God bee forbidden ? And whether this superstitious and false worship of the trew God , bee not intended to be that maner , forme and fashion of worship , both wholy and in parte , which the Gentiles vsed in the worship of their Idolles ? For there being a commaundement given before vnto the children of Israell , for the burning of the Images , and of the vtter destruction of all the Idolles of the Cananites : it is by these Scriptures commaunded ( after these Idoles were destroyed , and the Images burnt ) that the children of Israell should not so much as once hearken after , or inquire ; how those nations served their gods , least they should be taken in a snare , to doe so , and likewise vnto the Lord their God , as the nations did vnto their Idoles : And thus much also doth that argument , drawen from the doctrine of the gospell enforce , of not having felowship , concord , parte , or agreement with beliall ; or with an Idoll : of the not taking of the marke of the beast in their handes , or in their foreheads ; And therefore we again demand , whether the Church ( falsly so called ) of Rome , be not this great whore , with whom the kings of the earth have cōmitted fornication ? And whether shee also be not from the earth , and of this world ? Whether the beautie of this great whore stand not in outwarde pompe of apparell , and outward shewes , after the manner of a strumpett ? Whether this outward pompe of apparell and shewes of impudency consist not partly in Copes , Surplices , Crosses , and such like trashe ? And whether these Copes , Surplices , Crosses , &c. be not designed by that whore , to be the proper and peculiar cognizances , tokens , badges and ensignes of her lovers , cōmitting fornication with her great Idoll the breaden God ? If your Lordships can iustly deny our demaunds , in the affirmative to be true : we then agayne demaund ; If the bryde of the lambe , being a pure virgine , shall at any tyme be apparelled , in the acte of the service of her beloved , like to the minnions wayting vppon the great Whore , in the acte of her fornications : wee demaunde ( wee saye ) whether the Bryde ( in this case ) can be precious and amiable in the eyes of the Bridegrome ? can be said to have no concord with beliall ? no parte with an infidell ? no agreement with an Idoll ? can bee saide , not to take vpon her hande , vpon her forehead , or vpon her backe , the marke of the beast ? Can be sayd , not to doe so , and lykwise to the brydgrome , as the mynions of the whore , doe to their Idole ? or not to doe so , and lykewise , to God , as the papists doe to the devill ? Nay , if the Church of England herself alone ; bee not the bryde , but one of the maydes of the Bride , and if also shee professe hir self , to be the first of the three , rather then the last , of the the thirty worthyes and honorable Virgins ; we demand what holy reason should move this maide of England , still to fashion her Necklaces , her Bracelets , hir Frontlets , hir Cheynes , hir Iewels , hir lynen Apornes , hir gaudie Kirtles , like to those which the most famous strumpett , that ever was , ( for pompous ostentation and braverie ) daily vseth and putteth on , especially sithence all hir other fellow maides , in other Countries attending vpon the Bride with most solemne vowes and obtestations , and with a most holy disdayne and indignation have abandoned and cast away , as a menstruous cloth , what attire soever hath bene , or yet is proper , to the minions of that great Whore ? If your Lordships answere that the Maide of Englande , being perfectly instructed from the Bridegroms voice , ( that no Cope , Surplice or Crosse is vncleane of it selfe , ) may command hir Damsels , to attyre and fashion their liveries , colours and badges , like to those which the minions & louers of the great whore , cōmonly deck them selves withall : if so be hir commandement tend not , that hir Damsells should be defiled or bee druncken with the Wine of the fornication of the great whore , but only that they should be humbled at the feete of the Christian Magistrate , whom the Bridgrome hath armed with power , to be a protector and a nursing father of all the liberties and franchises of the Bride , and of hir Maides : if your Lordships ( we say ) to dischardge the Maide of England , in foro conscientiae , shall answere thus and thus : then because the Christian Magistrate is him selfe not the Bridgrome ; but one of the children of the Bride chamber , & a friend of the Bridegromes ; and for this cause , & in this respect , can not rightly command the Maide of Englande to be appareled otherwise in the service of the Bridegrome , then as the Bridegrome hath lycensed the Magistrate to command ; wee then demand , by what rule of holy Writt , your Lordships can prove , that the Christian Magistrate hath commission from the Bridegrome , to command the Maide of England at all seasons , and in all the courts of his aboade , to waite and to attend , to present , and to put vp hir requests , hir prayers , and hir services , in such suite and change of rayment , as is common with that of the minions of the great whore ? For vnlesse the Christian Magistrate be armed with power from the Bridegrome , to chardge the maide of England to be thus attired , your Lordships can not be ignorant , but that aswell the nursing Father in commanding , as the nurse Child in obeying , shall sinne against the Bridgrome . For howsoever it may bee lawfull for the Christian Magistrate to command or forbidde the vse , or not vse of every kinde of creature , which in it owne nature , by vertue of creation , is good , and therefore only called indifferent , because indifferently at the moderate pleasure of every man , the same with prayer and thanksgiving , may be vsed , or refused , for the vse of this life without offence to God ; nevertheles we greatly stand in doubt , whether the Christian Magistrates authoritie reach so farr as to command that the worke of mans hands be vsed in the outward worship of the true God , which for the pollution and prophanation thereof in the service of an Idoll , is become for the service of the true God , abhominable and damned . Nay ; if Hezekiah King of Iudah , be commended in holy Writt , for doing vprightly in the sight of the Lord , when he brake in pieces the brasen Serpēt , & called it a piece of brasse , when the children of Israell , by burning incense to it , abused it to Idolatrie , notwitstanding the same were first set vp by Moyses , at the commandement of God : How much more ought Christian Magistrates to destroy and to breake in pieces all maner workes of mens handes , never commanded in holy writt , either for the service of God , or for the profite of his people ? But Hezekiah might have done well and vprightly also , if so be he had still reserved the Serpent , as a memoriall of the miracles wrought by the looking vpon it , though for the abuse of burning incense before it , he had not broken the same in pieces . But wee beseech your Lordships to informe vs rightly out of holy Writt , whether this your answere in the sight of the Lord , be vpright , yea or no ? First , after the peoples heartes were once turned aside , by burning incense to the Serpent , it was not in the power of Hezekiah to knowe , whether the peoples hearts would have bene againe vpright in the memoriall of the miracles , yea or no ? And as for the restitution of the Serpent , to that integritie of doing miracles , after the peoples departure out of the wildernesse , when they were no more stunge by Serpents , that to doe , was much lesse in the power of Hezekiah : Besides , because by the doctrine of holy Writt , we be taught , not only that the forbidding of one thing , includeth a commandement of the contrary , and that the commandement of one thing inforceth a forbidding of the contrary ; but also that aswell the omission of a dewtie required , as the commission of a thing prohibited , is an offence to God : We pray your Lordships to resolve vs out of holy writ ; whether the holy Ghost , commending the vprightnes of Hezekiah , aswel for breaking to pieces the brasen Serpent , as in taking away the high places , and breaking the Images and cutting down the groves , doe not instruct vs that he was to have bene discommended , in case he had let the Serpent stood vnbroken down , though he had cut downe the Groves , broken the Images , and taken away the high places ? For in our iudgments by the doctrine aforesaid , founded vpon holy Writt , the breaking of the Serpent , being reckoned as a part of his vprightnes , and for the which he is commended , the not breaking thereof , must needes have bene as an vnvpright and as discommendable a thing , as the not cutting downe of the Groves , the not breaking the Images , and the not taking away the High places . But such Copes , Surplices , Crosses , &c. as heretofore have bene worne , and vsed at , & for Idols service , are not eadem numero with ours : For all the old Popish Copes , Surplices , &c. be long since out of date , and we will have all spicke and span new . Yea be it so , yet if the fashion and workmanship of their old , be the true paterns of our new , how shall not ours be like vnto theirs ? King Ahaz though hee sent not the very same Altar which hee saw at Damascus , but the paterne and the fashion of it , and all the workemanshippe thereof to Vriah the Priest , yet doeth the holy Storie witnesse , that hee trespassed , and did evill , and commendeth Hezekiah , that in the first yeare and first moneth of his reigne , hee commanded the Levites to cary forth the filthinesse out of the Temple , and all the vncleanenes that they found in the Temple of the Lorde , brought in by their Fathers . In the second booke of the Kings , the holy Ghost testifying what evill Hoshea the sonne of Elah King of Israell & his Fathers had done , in the sight of the Lord , sheweth vs , that they followed vanitie , and became vaine , and followed the Heathen , that were round about them ; concerning whom the Lord hath charged them , that they should not doe like them . And againe that they walked according to the fashion of the Heathen ; And againe that they burned incense in the High places as did the Heathen . And againe , that they would not obey , but hardened their neckes , like to the neckes of their Fathers : and againe , that they obeyed not , but did after their old custome ? yea and the Lorde by the mouth of Abijah King of Iudah reproved Ieroboam to his face , not for that he had made Priests of other countries , but that he had made him Priests , like the people of other countries . But by your patience , Sirs , these cases be not alike , For there was an expresse commandement in the Law , that there should be but one Altar , the paterne also whereof , was given to Moyses in the holy Mount , whereas we be not expresly forbidden in the Gospell to weare Copes , Surplices , or to make Crosses . But by your Lordships favour ( say we ) the cases ( notwithstanding this your exception ) be a like : for the Bride ( say we ) of the Lambe ; by the doctrine of the Gospell , is aswell expresly taught and bound as the Israelites were , to observe and keepe the second commandment of the Law ; yea shee is commanded not to fashion hir self like to this world ; not to weare the liverye of the great whore : not to marke hir selfe in the hand or in the forehead , with the marke of the Beast : not to have any fellowship , concord , part or agreement with Beliall , with an infidell , or with an Idoll . If then the great whore doe still raigne , though not over vs ; if the beast doe still rage , though his hornes push not at vs ; if Beliall be still worshipped , though not by vs : And if also this Beliall , and this Beast , vaunt him selfe , and this great Whore glory and decke hir selfe in , and with this kind of apparelling , and this maner of Crossing , we humbly pray your Lordships to resolve vs out of holy Writ , whether amōg our Priests , whosoever shall come to praye , to preach , or to administer the Sacraments , with a Cope , with a Surplice , with a Taper , with a Crosse , or with a shaven Crowne , like to the Copes , Surplices , Tapers , Crosses and shaven Crownes , of those Priestes which are Priestes to them which are no gods , whether such our Priestes ( wee saye ) borrowing this attyre from the great whore , and vsing the same in the service of the true God ; doe not follow vanitie and become vaine , and follow the Popish Idolaters about vs , concerning whom , the Lord hath forbidden we should not doe like them , neither walke according to their fashion , and after their old custome , niether to have any part , fellowship , communion , concord , or agreement with them ? What Sirs ? would you then have vs , to have no manner of agreement , concord , or communion , with the Papistes with the Beast , or with the great whore ? what , no thing at all ? why then Sirs , you would belike have vs pull downe our Churches , our Oratories and our Chappell 's ? Though our desire be to keepe our selves from all the defilements and pollutions of that Romish strumpett , yet doe wee dislike the pullinge downe of Churches , &c. For we knowe and are fully perswaded , by rules of holy Writt , that wee may lawfullie vse , not onlie Churches , Oratories and Chappell 's : but also that we may have seates in Churches ; Pulpits in Churches ; Fonts in Churches ; Tables together with faire lynen table clothes , to cover these Tables in Churches ; Bells , and Ropes for Bells ▪ in Churches ; yea and besides that , Reading , Praying , Preaching , administring of Sacraments , Singing , yea and Ringing too : are thinges which lawfully may bee performed by vs in Churches , because all these and every of these thinges being of some holy , naturall , necessarie , profitable , comely or good , orderly vse for the people , in , for , and toward the service of God , by some generall rule of holy Writt , be approved , and therefore by the same commanded , and sanctified for our vse . But as for Copes , Surplices , Crosses , Candles at noone dayes , and such like superstitious ornaments , rites and ceremonies , because there is neither holynes , neither nature , neither necessitie , neither vtilitie , neither decencie , neither any good order that require the same ; Nay , because what soever good order , decencie , vtilitie , necessitie , nature , or holines can require , may without those ornaments , rites , and ceremonies , be fully accomplished ; we affirme that they ought as a menstruous cloth be cast away , and to be bidden , get ye hence . Why , Sirs ? do you approve of a white lynen table-cloth to cover the communion table , and do you disallow a white lynen Surplice ? What ? is it not as comely a thing , and as good an order , we pray you , for the Minister at the communion table , to stand in a fyne , large , and cleane lynen Surplice , as it is a thing decent and orderly , for the communion table , to be overspread with a fine and cleane lynen table-cloth ? Vntill your Lordships shall be able to prove vnto vs , either out of holy Writt , or by some good reason , that it is , as vndecent a thing for your pages , to wayte and to attend vpon your trēchers and vpon your cuppes , without wearing whit lynen Surplices , as it is a slovenly manner , for any kinde of persons to sit downe , to eate , and to drinke , at the table , without having layd before them a whit lynen table-cloth , or napkin ; we are bould to affirme , that there is great oddes , betweene the decent vse of a white lynen table-cloth , for the communion table , and betweene the vse of a white Surplice , for the back of a minister . Indeed , if it were as comely and as orderly a thing , for all sortes of people , aswell woemen , as men , to weare Surplices vpon their vpper garmentes , when they come to the Lords table , as it is a decent and orderly manner for all men and woemen , whensoever they sit downe to eate , and to drink , to have their tables covered , with fayre lynen table-clothes ; we would not then much stand with your Lordships , that the wearing of a Surplice , by a Minister , at the communion table , might be as decent , and as orderly a thing , as is the covering of the communion table , with a fayre lynen table-cloth : but the first being a thinge vndecent , we denye the second to be decent : And yet were the latter graunted to be decent , what advantage , we pray your Lordships , doth this argument of comparison ( from a white lynen table-cloth , to a whit lynen Surplice ) bring for the vse of a silken , Embrodered , & yellow glittering Cope ? Are the heartes of the Priestes in Cathedrall and Collegiat churches , so golden , as they must signifie their goldē hearts , by their golden garmentes ? Hic tacuere phriges , auro sua somnia caelant : Well , by your patience ( Sirs ) though wee have not much to saye for maintenance and defence of our Copes , which are to be vsed onely in our Cathedrall and great churches , and not in your Parochiall churches , yet we pray you to carry a better estimation of the wearing of Surplices , by your Ministers , then you doe of the wearing of Surplices , by the popish Priests : Because the fountayne from whence ours sprange , and the end wherevnto ours tende and are applyed , bee much every way different from theirs . Why then give vs leave ▪ by your Lordships favour , to demand what were the fountaynes from whence , and what are the endes wherevnto both theirs and ours sprang , and do tend ? Your Lordships can not denye but as theirs were first worne , without any cōmandement of God , so be ours , and that therfore , as the wearing of theirs was but by devise and authoritie of man , so is ours : As theirs were commaunded for order , comelines and decencie , vnto the minions of the great whore , so be ours commended to be decent , comely and orderly garments , for the maydes of the bryde . As theirs were for a conformitie amonge the lovers of her that committed fornication , so bee ours for an vniformitie among the lovers of a pure and chast virgin : As theirs were for notes and distinctions betweene the people and the priestes , so be ours held to be markes betweene the shepheardes and the sheepe : As theirs might not be worne but vpon the vpper peltes of their priestes , so must not ours be vsed , but vpon the vpper garmentes of our ministers : As their Priestes might not sacrifice , nor make holy water without them , even so is it not lawfull for our Ministers without them , to pray or to administer the Sacramentes . As theirs were significant , and yet notwithstanding , were altogether idle , vayne , fruitlesse , and without edification : so be ours mainteyned to bee neither darke nor dumme ceremonies , to serve as a decent order , and discipline , and such as be apt to stirre vp the dull mynd of man , to the remembrance of his dutie to God , by some speciall signification , whereby he might bee edified , to have respect how to please God and profit the church . Whereas neverthelesse they be in trueth without edificatiō , without profit , nay rather hurtfull to the church , without pleasing God , without vse , idle , vayne , and needles ; As theirs might not be vsed at any other time , or in any other place , but only in the place & at the time of their service of their false god ; so may not ours be vsed in any other place , or at any other time , but only at the time , and in the place of the worship of the true God. And lastly , whosoever amonge the Priestes , refused to weare their Surplices , were adiudged Scismatickes and to bee excommunicated ; even so what soever minister , among our Ministers , denieth to receive and to put on one of our Surplices , he is at the pleasure of his ordinarie , for such refusall , to be suspended , excommunicated , and deprived . In so much as there is not any one least circumstance to be found , wherein their , and our Surplices , differ in matter , forme , vse , ende , or application . And thus much of our Demaundes , grounded vpon holy Writt , whether the Christian Magistrate , may commaunde and appropriate a Ministeriall garment for the Ministers of the Gospell , and especially such a Ministeriall garment , as hath bene a priestly garment , for the Priestes of that great Idoll the Masse . Now it followeth that wee demaunde , vpon what rules of holy Writt the making of a Crosse , and signing of the child in the forehead in the administration of Baptisme is grounded ; against which we propound these grounds of holie Writt . Grounds out of holy writt against the vse of the Crosse in Baptisme . Thou shalt not make to thy selfe any graven Image . All they that make an Image are vanitie , & their delectable things nothing profite . Every man is a beast by his owne knowledge . This people have removed their hearte farr from me , and their feare toward me , was taught by the precept of man. In vaine they worship mee , teaching for doctrines the precepts of men . From which grounds we demand : Whether your Lordships can prove out of holy Writt , that there can be a service yealded vnto God , where God hath not given a commandement ? Whether the more a man thinketh to doe any thinge by his owne wisedome , and not as God instructeth him , the more he doe not prove him selfe to be a vile beast ? Whether any thing can be acceptable in the sight of God , which he never required at our handes ? Whether God wil be honored , according to mans fantasie , or rather doth not detest , whatsoever is not grounded vpon his worde ? If your Lordships for the avoyding of these demandes , shall deny the feigned making of a crosse , and feigned signing of the childe in the forehead with a crosse , in the administration of Baptisme , to be any service , or to be any worship vnto God , and therefore neither voluntarie service , neither will-worship vnto God : then we demaunde for what intent , or to what end , the making of a Crosse , and signinge the forehead of the childe with a crosse , is commaunded as a necessarie service , to be performed by the Minister , in that publique acte of Gods worship ? for if the forme and manner of Gods worship ( as you say ) be established , prescribed , & conteyned in the booke of common prayer , if also the ministration of the Sacrament commaunded in that booke , be ( as you say ) no corrupt , superstitious , or vnlawfull worship , neither conteyning any thing in it that is repugnant to the scriptures : how should not the making of a Crosse , and signing of the childe in the forehead with a crosse , but be a pure , a religious , & a lawfull worship vnto God ? Besides , if making a crosse vpon the childes forehead , and signing the forehead of the childe with a crosse , be no act of gods worship in the administration of Baptisme ; Then we demaund , how the Minister in foro cōscientiae , can be guiltles of taking the holy name of God in vaine , when as in the act of Gods service and worship , hee doth neither worship , nor serve God ? But , Sirs , by your patience , the Minister in obeying the authoritie of the Church , when shee commaundeth him , to make a Crosse , herein obeyeth God. Why then , by your Lordships favour , wee demaund , whether the church doe serve God , or doe but please her selfe , in that her cōmandment ? For ( say we ) where no commaundement of God , there no service vnto God : And therefore if the Church , by such her commaundement , doe but please hir selfe ; and not serve and please God. Then we demaund , whether the Church in thus pleasing her selfe , and not serving ●od , doe not offend God , asmuch , nay rather more , then if shee had commaunded a voluntarie service , and a will-worship vnto God ? But , Sirs , the acte of making a Crosse , and signing the childe in the forehead with a crosse , is no parte of baptisme , for we graunt , that baptisme is perfect and absolute without it . But yet by your Lordships favour , the question is not , whether making of a crosse , or signing with a crosse , be any parte of baptisme , but whether making of a crosse , and signing with a crosse , be any parte of the continued acte of the outward and divine worship given vnto God in the publick administration of baptisme ? For if it be a meere traditionall , and no divine or religious action ▪ or if it be partly traditional , and partly divine , we still vrge your Lordships to prove vnto vs , by the holy scriptures , whether it were ever lawfull in any act of Gods worship , to act a thing meerely traditionall , or partly traditionall , and partly divine . As for the action of sitting , standing , kneeling , going , reading , praying , preaching , and if there be any other Divine , naturall , or necessarie actions , powers or faculties of the body or minde , without which no outward service can be yealded vnto God. We confesse , that the Church with the Magistrates consent , may determine of the comely and orderly acting of these things : because Aliquo per Deum mandato , omnia ea mandantur , ne quibus illud mandatum commodè & religiosè adimpleri non potest : And therefore those divine , necessarie , and naturall actions before remembred , depending vpon , or proceeding from the powers and faculties of the bodie or mind , being such as without which the outward service of God can not ▪ commodiously , decently , and orderly be accomplished , we affirme , that they be confirmed vnto vs from generall rules of holy writ . And this also may serve for an answere , for the having of water , & a vessell to conteyne water ; because , as water of necessitie is required to the administration of baptisme , so must also water ( we having no waters running through our churches ) of necessitie be cōteyned in some vessell ▪ but as for making a crosse , or signing the forehead of the child with a crosse in baptisme , because the same by your confession , is no part of Baptisme ; And because also the same is not properly and simply any necessary , naturall or divine actiō , as without which Baptisme can not be administred ; Nay , because it is such an action , as without which Baptisme very decently and orderly may be administred : wee pray your Lordships to resolve vs out of holy Writt , how the Minister may acte the signe in the outward acte of Gods worship : And yet not breake ( as earst hath bene said ) either the second commandement , by outwardly serving God otherwise then hee hath commanded in his worde , or not violate the thirde commandement , by taking his holy Name in vaine ? But by your patience , Sirs , this making a crosse vpon the childes forehead , and this signing him with a signe of the crosse , in token , &c. though the same be no part of Baptisme , nor any parte of the outward worship of God , nor any naturall , nor necessarie action of the body or mind , without which Baptisme can not be administred , yet is the same a solemnitie , & an ornament apperteyning vnto Baptisme , by the order of the church ▪ which ought not to be omitted and left vndone . But by your Lordships favour , this your Apologie is of no fresher hue , nor of any deeper dye , then wherewith the great Papistes and fond Canonistes have alwayes bepainted and becouloured their signing , their salting , their spitteling , their oyling , their chrismating , and their other such like solemnities , according to these verses : Sal , oleum , chrisma , cereus , chrismate , saliua , Flatus , virtutem Baptismatis ista figurant ; Haec cum patrinis , non mutant esse , sed ornant . And therefore we pray your Lordships to resolve vs by some place of holy Writt , whether the Papists and you , or either of you , be inabled to invent , or ordeyne such solemnities , ornaments , signes & figures of crosses to be vsed in the publique administration of Baptisme , as never once came in the mind of God to have devised or vsed ? And so much the rather doe wee desire your Lordships resolutions herein , because there is no maner of solemnitie , signe , figure or ornament of a crosse , required by the book of cōmon prayer , to be vsed in that administration of Baptisme , which in the same book , is intituled private Baptisme . For if Baptisme without any reall solemnitie , or actuall ornament of a crosse , or of the signe of a crosse , may bee administred privately , how much more without these humane solemnities and ornamentes might baptisme be administred publiquelie ? There being then in the Church of England , two formes & maners of the administration of Baptisme , the one private , the other publike ; the one with a crosse , the other without a crosse , and both of these concluded by your late Canons , not to be corrupt , superstitious , or vnlawfull , by meanes also whereof there is to be seene no cōformitie , or vniformitie betwene having solemnities & ornaments of crosses , & signes of crosses in publike baptisme , & betwene the not having solemnities and ornaments of crosses , and signes of crosses in private baptisme : we pray your Ll. to resolve vs out of holy writ ; whether these ornaments & solemnities of crosses , & signes of crosses , for the stability of publike peace & quiet in the church , & the not enforcing of any mans conscience with the vse of the crosse , might not aswell be left out in the administratiō of publike , as it is in the administratiō of private baptisme ? For whether respect be had to the brethren offended , or made weake by the vse therof , or whether we regard the not cōfirming & strenghtening of the superstitious in their error , there is farr much more danger like to ensue , both to the one sorte & to the other , by the vse of it , in publike , then in private Baptisme , by reason that the assembly generally is evermore great in the one , and never but small in the other . But to let passe this deformitie of crossing & not crossing , in publik & private baptisme , we will prosecute some few demands , not yet moved , concerning the feigned imaginarie and ayrie crossing , vsed in publike Baptisme . And first , we pray your Lordships to resolve vs out of holy writ , how a Minister , in foro conscientiae , can be cleare & without sinne , when as in the same publike & continewed act of Gods worship , imaginarily & feignedly he shal affirme the doing of a thing , w ch indeed & in trueth he doth not , ne possibly can do ? if the Minister then without some instrumēt , chalk , rudle or such like , can make no crosse vpon the childs forehead , and yet shall say ( as the booke prescribeth ) that he signeth him with the signe of the crosse , what a grosse fitten call ye that ? To affirme that the passing of the Ministers hand , thūme or finger , croswise in the ayre over the childs forehead , is to make a crosse vpon the childs forehead , & that the same passing in the ayre , is also the signe of a crosse , this ( we say ) to affirme , is as if a man should assevere , that the flying of a bird in the ayre , & the slyding of a serpent vpon a stone , leaveth a bird , and the signe of a bird in the ayre ; a serpent , and the signe of a serpent , vpon a stone : And to say that there is an invisible crosse , or a signe of an invisible signe of a crosse , remaining in the ayre over the childes forehead , how absurd , and without all reason that saying is , we leave to your Lordships considerations . For if it be vnpossible to make a crosse , or the signe of a crosse , vpon the running water , much more vnpossible is it to make a crosse , or the signe of a crosse , in the subtile and replenishing ayre : wherefore vnlesse your Lordships can prove by some rule of holy Writt , that every Minister is indowed with power from above , to make crosses , and signes of crosses , which be invisible , and that these invisible signes and crosses be also invisible tokens in the childes forehead , of his being not ashamed of Christ crucified , of his manfull fighting , &c. we demand , what good plea in foro conscientiae , your Lordships can frame to dischardge the Minister from being guilty of a thrice feigned , imaginary & lying crosse ? we say , thrice faigned at the least . First , we receive and doe signe thee : secondly , with the signe ; and thirdly , of the Crosse . And what , if we saide fourthly , in token ? for what token can the child , or his witnesse , in his name receive & keepe , when as neither he , nor they , have any crosse , any signe , or any token of a crosse given or delivered vnto them at all ? which maner of crossing , signing and tokening , may well bee compared to our atturnies proceeding by signes and profers , signes and profers ; when indeed by such their pleadings they hasten not , but delay their clyents causes , only making signes and profers , signes and profers , as though by this meanes they hastened to an end , when as indeed they mind nothing lesse . But to speake no more of the Ministers feigned signes and profers of making crosses & signes of crosses in the ayre , vpon or over the childs forehead ; Wee demand ? whether not to be ashamed to confesse the faith of Christ crucified ; whether not to be ashamed manfully to fight vnder his banner , against sinne , the world and the divell ; whether not to be ashamed to continewe Christes faithfull souldier and servant to his lifes end ? We demand ( we say ) whether these three graces , be not all , & every of them , inward , invisible and spirituall graces , yea or no ? If your Lordships answere , ( as the trueth is ) that these graces be all spiritual , invisible & inward graces , then because by the book of common prayer ( so the Minister make a crosse ) it is not materiall of what forme the crosse be made : we demand , by what rules of holy writ , your Lordships can prove , that the signe of the crosse of saint Iohns of Ierusalem , the signe of saint Andrews crosse , the signe of saint Peters crosse , the signe of the crosse made after the Greeke T. or like the Hebrew χ. or like the Greeke X. or the signe of any other crosse , ( for there be divers other formes of crosses ) can be a token of these spirituall and invisible graces , if so be they were engraven with a Diamond vpon the childes forehead . If your Lordships answere affirmatively , that the signe of saint Andrewes crosse , of saint Iohns crosse , of saint Peters crosse , or the signe of any other crosse , made by the Minister vpon the childes forehead , is a token of these inward , spiritual and invisible graces ; then we demand , whether your Lordships ascribe not like power to every minister , for the trāsubstantiation of every invisible crosse , feinedly made in the administration of Baptisme , to the forme of a true & visible crosse , as the Pope attributeth to every Prieste , for the transubstantiation of every piece of bread , wherevpon he bloweth at the Altar , into the Body of Christ ? or if your Lordships answere ( because there is no crosse sensibly to be seene , but intelligiblie to be vnderstood ) that the imaginary feigned & ayrie crosse is a token of these invisible & spirituall graces ; then againe we pray your Lordships to resolve vs out of holy Writt , whether God did ever ordeine any invisible signes , to bee invisible tokens , of invisible graces , yea or no ? And if God did never ordeine such signes ; then we demand , what authoritie man hath to ordeine such signes ? But if your Lordships shall answere negatively , viz : that the invisible signe of the crosse , imaginarily pretended to bee made by the Minister , is not a token of these inward and spirituall graces ; then wee demande , whether your Lordships with your owne mouthes pronounce not that thing to be false , which the booke of common prayer commandeth every Minister , with his lips to proclaime to be true ? But Sirs , by your leave , the Church hath power from Christ to ordeyne rites and ceremonies , and the Magistrate may command that all things be done decently and according to order , in the time of prayer and administration of Sacraments . Yea , and so say we too : Nay wee say more , that the Christian Magistrate knowing any thing to be done vndecently and vnorderly , shall sinne against God , if by his authority , he take not order , for reformation of such disorder ; but by your Lordships favour , the question is not whether the Church may ordeine Rites and Ceremonies , or whether the Christian Magistrate may command such things , as by the Apostles doctrine are to be done , that the same be done decently and orderly : but the question is , whether all rites and ceremonies indefinitlie , and without limitation approved by the Church and commaunded by the Magistrate to bee decent , and to be in order , be in deed and without contradiction absolutely decent , and absolutely in order ? And for this cause and in this regarde only , both by ministers and people , without any search or inquisitiō of their agreeablenes with holy writt , absolutely to be receyved , as if the same by some holy oracle , were immediatly sent vnto them from God ? For be it supposed , that some rites and ceremonies ordeyned by the Church and commaunded by the Christian Magistrate , be of the nature of things either vnlawfull , or inexpedient , or that they be vaine , idle , vnnecessarie and vnprofitable things : in these cases , we pray your Lordships to resolve vs out of holy Writt , whether the Apostles rule of having all things to be done decently and according to order in the Church cease not ? For how should those things be done decently and orderly in the Church for the which the Church hath no warrant , that the same should be done at all ? The Apostle then having taught the Corinthians , that the thinges which he wrote , were the commaundements of the Lord , and concluding that all things treated of by him in the former partes of that chapter , touching the right vse of spirituall giftes , are to bee done decently and in order , we demaund , whether your Lordships from this apostolicall rule can religiouslie conclude any otherwise then thus ? All the commaundements and all the spirituall giftes of the Lord , are to be done and vsed in the Church decently and orderly . But the wearing of a Surplice , in tyme of prayer and administration of Sacramentes , the making of a Crosse vpon the childes forehead , &c. And kneeling in the act of receyving bread and wine at the Lordes Table , bee spirituall giftes , or at leastwise be the commaundements of the Lord : Therefore these things are to be done decently and in order . But now if your Lordships beeing not able to strengthen your minor proposition by any place of holy Writt , shall make the same answere which the Romanistes frame in all like cases , for the Authoritie of their church , namely : that the Ministers , and people , ought preciselie to observe and doe these thinges , if not propter Authoritatem Apostolicam , yet propter authoritatem Ecclesiae , seu Christiani Magistratus sic statuentis : Then doe your Lordships but as they doe , even runne from the Rock , and buyld vpon the Sand ; yea and besides , flee from the poynte in question : making the Church , and Christian Magistrate not only to be preservers , but commanders of all Evangelicall decencie and order , And then might not this consequution , and conclusion infallibly be true ? What soever thinges by the Church , with consent of the Christian Magistrate , be , or shal be appointed , for Evangelicall decencie and order in the Church : the same without all exception , and challendge of any vndecencie , or disorder , must and ought to be receyved of every member of the Church , for decent and orderlie thinges : But all such and such things by the Church , with consent of the Christian Magistrate be appointed , &c. Therefore all such and such things , must & ought , without all exception , be receyved , &c. Yea , Sirs : and is not this a good consequution , and doeth not this conclusion necessarilie followe ? For who shall be Iudge of Evangelicall decencie and order , if not the Church and Christian Magistrate alone ? Before we answere vnto this question , wee denie your proposition , because the same seemeth vnto vs to be rather an inversion , then a true conversion of the Apostles rule , viz. Let all things be done decently and in order . The meaning whereof , according to the Analogie of the place , we take to be this , namely : that all thinges , or what soever thinges are to be done in the Church , that the same thinges ought to bee done decently and in order : But what agreement , we pray you , hath this rule with your proposition ? or what coherence hath your proposition with this rule ? for by what arte can you frame this your proposition vpon the Apostles foundation ? This your proposition ( wee saye ) namely all things , or whatsoever things the Church with consent of the Christian Magistrate shall authorize for decencie and order , the same are all decent and orderly things . Indeed , if this your propositiō could be proved true by any doctrine drawne from any other place of holy Writt , we would easilie graunt , the church with consent of the christian Magistrate having commanded Copes , Surplices , Crosses , kneelings , &c. to be vsed in the church , that this the Apostles rule did binde all those to kneele , to make crosses , and to weare Copes , and Surplices , not vngaynely , disorderly or slovenly , but comely , hansomely , and netely ; but seeing your proposition is false , and can not by any other place of holy scripture be proved true , you have drawne in the Apostles rule , as it were by the hayre , and pluckt it in , as it were by the heeles , to a wrong purpose , and forced it to a wronge sense . Furthermore , because these wordes decencie and order , mencioned in your proposition , carrie a double sense , we pray your Lordships to resolve vs , whether by these wordes decencie & order , you meane simplie such a decencie , and such an order , as for the allowance whereof , playne and evident testimonies may be founde in holy Writt , that the same decencie and order is pleasing vnto God ? or whether you meane such a decencie and order only , as for the which ( we having no other warrant , then tradition or commaundment of man ) is only pleasinge vnto man ? touching which latter kinde of decencie and order , the same being but humane , we demaund , if either Ministers or people bee not fully perswaded in minde , that this humane decencie and order , is by some generall rule of holy Writt , aswell pleasing vnto God ; as the same by some law of man , is knowne to be well pleasing vnto man : we demaund ( we say ) in this case whether Minister or people , in foro conscientiae , be obliged to vse this so called and commaunded decencie or order , yea or no ? For albeit every soule be subiect to the higher powers ; neverthelesse , for the avoyding of error , and that the conscience of every soule may be vpright with God , in her subiection , to the ordinance of man : the conscience must take direction , not from the onely will and authoritie of man , but from the only Writt and authoritie of God. And therefore as every Magistrate , ought to be fully perswaded in his conscience of his commaund , before he conscionably may require , that to be obeyed which he commaundeth : even so it be hoveth every soule , before he obey , to be perswaded fully in his minde , that the thing cōmanded , ought for conscience sake , to be obeyed , because the same is approved by the holy word of God : For otherwise howsoever outwardly he may serve , and please the Magistrate , yet inwardly & in the spirite , he can never be assured that in this case , he shal serve God : because the Magistrates commandement simply considered in it self , is not any true spirituall guide , for the conscience of any soule , to be ledd and conducted by . Now then to your Lordships former question , whether the Church and supreme christian Magistrate , ought not to sitt , as soveraigne Iudge , vpon the conscience of every soule , about the determination of all decencie and order to be kept by that soule , your Lordships by this our discourse , easily may perceave , that we may well answere your demand , if we propound but one question to another . And therefore we demaund , who shal be sovereigne Iudge over that soule and cōscience , that commandeth decencie & order in the church , if not only the holy word of God alone ? And if the christian Magistrate must for the safetie of his soule , have some rule of holy writt , to be his soveraigne Iudge , for the thing that he cōmandeth ; how should not the christiā subiect in like sorte for the safetie of his soule , have some word of faith , to be his sovereigne Iudge , for his subiectiō in the thing which he obeyeth ? for so shall not the conscience of him that commandeth , be any more a sovereigne Iudge over him that obeyeth , then shall the conscience of him that obeyeth , bee sovereigne Iudge over him that commandeth . But , Sirs , if this be so , what soverainitie doe ye yeeld vnto the Christian Magistrate , above the subiect , or what shall his authority avayle , when every soule commanded to be subiect to his power , shall examine the validitie of the lawfulnesse of his command ? shall not every rule of holy writ , wherevpon the christian Magistrate doeth ground his conscience , for the thing commanded , be a good and sufficient ground for the conscience of every one , in the thing that is obeyed ? Vnto this we answer ; that the Christian Magistrates conscience can not be any sufficient discharge for the conscience of him that obeyeth , vnlesse your Lordships bee able to prove vnto vs by some place of holy Writ , that the Magistrate touching the lawfulnes of the thing commanded , can not erre . For every soule , aswell of the subiect , must answere & give an accompt for him selfe vnto God , for the thing wherein he obeyeth , as the Magistrate must for the thing which he cōmandeth ; for the good and rightfull obedience , and command whereof , he hath appointed his holy word alone , to be the only Iudge aswell vnto the subiect , as vnto the Magistrate : or ells what soverainitie should the word of God beare over the cōscience of a subiect , if so be the Magistrates conscience & command should be the soveraigne Iudge over the subiects soule , & sway the subiects conscience ? And yet by this meanes doe we not take away the due preeminence and authoritie , which by the holy Worde of God is given to the civill Magistrate , over the subiect : For in that , that every soule is commanded to be subiect , for conscience sake , to the higher powers , this scripture by your Lordships patience ( as we take it ) is to be vnderstood , not for the conscience of him that cōmandeth , but for the conscience of him that obeyeth : because the subiect , without the breach of his conscience , can not contemne the civill governement , which God hath appointed , not to be over the soule , but to be over the body . And indeed to establish the command or conscience of the civill Magistrate , to be the squire & plūmet of every subiects conscience , were to wrest the holy Scriptures , & to establish ( as the Antichristianites do ) a tyranny over the consciences of subiects : Thus much touching that later kind of humane decencie and order before spoken of . And as concerning that kind of decency & order for the which there may be testimonies found in holy Writ , that they be pleasing vnto God : we affirme that the church and Christian Magistrate ought not only to be commanders and preservers of the same , but that both Ministers and people also ought to be followers and embracers thereof . Nay , we say more , yea we affirme , that every humane decencie & order whatsoever ought to stoupe and give place vnto that order and decencie for the which testimonies are to be found in holy writ , that the same be pleasing vnto God , And therfore we demand , by what rule of holy writ , your Lordships can prove your late convocationall canons , to have allowance from the spirit of Christ , when as by the same ye have cōmanded a decencie & order , meerly humane precisely to be observed in the church , insteed of that decencie & order which at the beginning was in the church & which being pleasing vnto God could not be but divine ? It had bene ( in our iudgments ) a fact not simply cōmendable , if your Lordships had but invented and added an humane decencie and order vnto that which hath warrant from holy writt , to be divine : but wholy to disseyse the Church of that decencie and order , which by testimony of holy Writt , is witnessed to bee pleasing vnto God ; and to give your owne devises , decencies and orders , liverie and seysin this to doe , we demand , whether , in foro conscientiae , it be not a double sinne , and in curiae Christianitatis , deserve not a double censure ? But , Sirs , by your patience , what is that Divine order , and what is that Divine decencie , whereof we have disseysed the Churches , and what decencie and order , of our owne , have we put in seysin thereof ? By your Lordships favour , before we make full answer vnto this your question ; we demand , whether your Lordships bee able to prove out of holy Writt , that the outward forme and maner of acting any service vnto God , by our Saviour Christ or his Apostles in prayer , preaching the word & administring the Sacraments , was an vnorderly , or an vndecent forme or maner of acting that service before God , yea or no ? If your Lordships answere , as the trueth is , that the outward maner of acting every kind of service by our Saviour Christ & his Apostles , was so decently & orderly done , and so acceptable vnto God , as nothing in the outward acting thereof could be more , wee then pray your Lordships to resolve vs first , what warrant you have out of holy writt , to disseyse all the Ministers of the outward acting of the whole worship of God in prayer and administring the Sacraments , without a Surplice ? Secondly , what warrant you have from the spirit of Christ , to disseyse all the Ministers of the acting of some part of Gods worship , in the administration of publike Baptisme , without making a crosse vpon the childes forehead , and signing him with the signe of the crosse ? Lastly , what approbation you have from the spirit of Christ , wholy to disseyse all the sonnes and daughters of God , of the acte of sitting in the acte of receiving the Sacrament of the Lordes Supper ? For in that you have commanded that no Minister , when he celebrateth the communiō , shall wittingly administer the same to any but to such as kneel , you haue , by consequence , inhibited every one that sitteth , to receive the same . And thus to establish your owne humane decencie and order of kneeling , in the acte of receiving the communion , you have disseysed vs of that Euangelicall decencie and order of sitting , warranted vnto the Ministers and vnto vs by the example of our Saviour Christ and his Apostles , whē as at his last Supper , he him self delivered both the Bread and the Wine vnto his Apostles , as they sate , and not as they kneeled at the Table ; whereby it appeareth that you looked not vnto the holy one of Israell , nor sought vnto the Lord ; and he yet is wisest . But , Sirs , by your patience , it is not required as a thing of meere necessitie , as though without kneeling the Sacrament might not lawfully be ministred and received at all , but for reverence and conformities sake only , it is commanded that the people should kneele . Why then , by your Lordships favour , we demand , vnto whom this reverence is yealded , and vnto what thing this conformitie is proportioned ? for that this forme of kneeling is not conformed to the Apostles maner of sitting at the table , is evident , nether can it be denyed , but that this kinde of reverence is fashioned like to that maner of reverence , which every catholicke fornicatour , by the ordinance of his love the great whore , doeth yealde vnto his Idoll , when he received his breaden god : wherefore we pray your Lordships to resolve vs out of holy Writt , whether your conformitie , and your reverence of kneeling ( in the acte of receiving the Sacrament of the Lordes Supper ) may not rightly be condemned , as things not having any due reverence , conformitie or proportion with the written Law of God , or example of our Saviour Christ and his Apostles before mencioned ? Besides , we demand , whether your Lordships had not worthely deserved to have bene much praised and commended by all the churches , for that thanks might have bene given by many vnto God , for you , if so be for reverence vnto the example of our Saviour Christ , who did all things well , and conformitie to his Apostles , ye had commanded the people not to have kneeled in the acte of receiving after the fashion of the catholicke fornicatours , who doe all things ill , but rather to have sitten after the maner of the Apostles ? especially sithence betwene this maner prescribed of receiving the Sacrament of the Lordes Supper kneeling , & the maner of the receiving the Sacrament of Baptisme , yea and the word it selfe , sitting or standing , and not kneeling , there can be found no maner of conformitie at all ; And yet as we deny not ( when we come to the Font , or to the Sermon , both before , & after the Word preached and Baptisme administred ) but that we ought reverently and vniformely to kneele in prayer & thankesgiving prescribed by the booke . Even so also , we acknowledge , when we come to the Lords Table , that before and after the deliverie and receiving of the Sacrament , we ought to confesse our sinnes , to pray and to give thankes , reverently and vniformely kneeling vpon our knees : But that we should more kneele in the very acte of receiving Bread and Wine , at the Ministers hand , at the Lords Table , then in the name of our children , in the very acte of our childrens receiving Water vpon their faces , or being dipt in Water , wee should kneele at the Font , in the time of Baptisme ; we for our partes must confesse , that as yet this mysterie of conformitie and reverence , to kneele in the acte of receiving the communion , is hidden from vs : because we see no more needfulnesse of reverence and conformitie for kneeling , to be in the acte of receiving the one Sacrament , then to be in the act of receiving the other : nor that there is any greater reverence , or conformitie of kneeling to bee vsed , when the Minister breaketh bread for our bodyes , which perisheth at the communion Table , then when he breaketh the bread of life for our soules , which perisheth not in the Pulpit . Nay , furthermore what conformitie is there prescribed in the booke of common prayer ; when in one & the same church , and in one & the same act of receiving the Lords Supper , it permitteth the Minister to receive standing , and prescribeth the people to receive kneeling ? or what greater reverence is there required by the sheepe , then is to be performed by the sheepheard , who should be an example to the flocke ? The words of the book for the Ministers standing , when he receiveth the communion , seeme vnto vs to bee so perspicuous and without all maner of ambiguitie , as without an absurditie they can not bee construed to command a Minister to kneele ▪ for the maner how the Minister of the place , or how other Ministers , if any be present to helpe him , should receive , is not prescribed at all , vnlesse it be prescribed , that he and they , should receive standing . Nay , howsoever in the same book it be said , that the Minister shall deliver the communion in both kindes to the people in their hands kneeling , neverthelesse it followeth not herevpon , ( the law being not in the negative , but in the affirmative ) that the Minister may not deliver the communion to the people standing or sitting , or that the people be exactly bound not to stand or to sitt , but to kneele . Besides , because by the booke of common prayer of the seconde of Edw. 6. wherevnto only ( as we take it ) touching ornaments ▪ rites , and ceremonies our booke hath reference ( which booke also of Edw. the 6. by the repeale made of the statute of primo of Queene Mary , in the first session of this last Parliament is revived ) because ( we say ) by this booke of common prayer of the second of Edw. 6. kneeling , crossing , holding vp of handes , knocking vpon the breaste , and other gestures are to bee vsed , at least , as every mans devotion serveth , without blame : We pray your Lordships to suffer vs without blame , and danger of your late canons , peaceably , and quietly to enioy and possesse our libertie ; That so we may receyve the communion , sitting , standing , or kneeling , as everie mans devotion serveth . And thus much for our full and perfect answere vnto your questions of disseysing the church of her evangelicall decencie and order , and of reverence and conformitie , in kneeling in the act of receyving the cōmunion ; wherevpon we most instantly pray your Lordships , that you would be well pleased vpon your second thoughtes , to heale your former errours ; And withall to be content , not only to suppresse the vse of your Copes , Surplices , making of Crosses , signing with Crosses , tokening with Crosses ▪ kneeling , &c. But also to restore our possession , and to give vs livery and seysin of all those decencies , conformities , and reverend maner of prayer , preaching the word , receiving and administring the Sacramentes ( without Copes , Surplices , Crosses , and kneelings ) whereof the Churches were seysed in the Apostles tymes : And which being moderated by the wisdome and authoritie of our Saviour Christ , we are most assured , can not be but well-pleasing vnto God. But , Sirs , by your patience , our Christian Magistrate imposeth them , as matters of order , according to that forme , wherein he found the church at his coming , and this his pleasure must commaund , & may satisfie vs ; if it should please the King not to commaund them , wee , for our partes ▪ could be well content not to vrge them . See , see , what a dalliance is this in a matter of so high a qualitie , and touching the dignitie , & preheminence of so excellent a person ? what ? was your melody yesterday , and that in the presence of the King , and assemblie of his Nobles ; was your melody but yesterday ( we say ) viz. No ceremonie , no Bishop : no Bishop , no King ? and can your Lordships to day , sitting Iudicially in your Consistory ( to censure the Ministers for not conformitie ) thus sudenly change your note , and cry openly ; No commaundement of ceremonies by the King ; no imposition of ceremonies by the Bishop ? For is it not ? as if you should have layde the whole blame vpon the King , and have spoken thus : No ceremonious King , no ceremonious Bishop ? And yet for all this , do not all men know , that your Lordships were too too ceremonious , and too too great masters of ceremonies , before ever the King saw your faces ? And how then cometh it to passe ( ceremonies having hitherto ben vpheld by your Lordlines ) that your Lordlines should not now stande but by ceremonies ? or how cometh it to passe ( your Lordlines heretofore being propped vp by the crowne and scepter of our late Queene ) that your Lordlines should now vphold the scepter & crowne of our Christian King ? This your Lordships gradation therefore , made vpon the first day from the not being of a Ceremonie , to the not being of a Bishop , to the not being of a King : And this your protestation made vpon the next day , of the being of a Kinge , to the being of a ceremonie , what ells doeth the one and the other argue and importe , but a feare and a suspition ( if the King should once commande downe your lawes of Ceremonies ) that the Lawes of your Lordlinesse likewise would of them selves , sone after fall to the ground . And therefore whether the King did conceive , that you might but glose and flatter with your gradation , or whether poore , simple and playne meaning men might be seduced by your protestation , we know not , neither is it our purpose to enquire . Only we can not but much marveile , that each of you professing him selfe to be a Gad , and to be a Nathan : to be a Seer , and to be a Prophet vnto our christian Magistrate , should thus protest , & thus chardge the King , to be the only spirit , by whom your selves doe speake , and the only prophet from whom your selves doe learne . Nay , what a thinge is this ? your Lordships prophesying vnto the King , in the name of the Lord ; That your rites and ceremonies , are no way contrariant , or repugnant , but every way agreeable and consonant to the holy word of God , and meete to be reteyned , aswell for the manner and forme of Gods worship , as for edification of the church , should notwithstanding openly avow the Kings pleasure , and the Kings command , to be the fountayne and welspring of your prophesies ? Nay , which is more , your selves , making for your selves Ceremonious hornes of Iron , & assuring the king , that with the same he should be able to overthrowe and push downe al such as by your Lordships be falsely called puritanes , What a thing is this , that you should notwithstanding , proclayme the kings minde , to be , as it were , the only mould wherein your ceremonies were cast ? Nay , which is more , What a thing is this ? your Lordships assuring to your selves , to bee the chiefest of the Lordes Priestes and Levites , should notwithstanding put the holy Censores into his Maiesties hand , and laye the holy Arcke of the Covenaunt , vpon the kinges shoulders , to burne incense , and to beare it , and to carrye it him selfe alone ? Nay , which is more , What a thing is this ( your Lordships by a definitive sentence , publickly given , read and divulged in your sacred ( so called ) Synod , having not only iudicially decreed , the lawfulnes of ornaments , rites and ceremonies , but also humbly and professedly desired the same to be cōfirmed by the Kings royal authoritie vnder the broad Seale of England ) that you should notwithstanding , for the execution of your said Decree , call to witnes the Kings commaund , and the Kings pleasure ? As though the Kings pleasure and commaund were the only cause , and not the effect of your decree ; and not rather your decree the only cause and not the effect of his Highnes commaund ? Your second canon , by which the same power is iustly ( as we cōfesse ) given to our Sovereigne Lord the King in causes ecclesiasticall , that the godly Kings had among the Iewes , will not serve to excuse you , in the making of your canons , if any of them be blame worthie ; for the godly Kings of Iudah , never had any authoritie to command what ceremonies should be ordeyned among the lewes : Neither did King David , neither any other of the godly kings of Iudah , doe any thing in building of the Temple , in distribution of offices among the Levites , or in any manner services performed to the Lord , but the same was sent vnto them in writing from the hand of the Lord , or by the mouth of the Prophetes , or by casting of Lott . What soever authoritie then the godly Kings of Iudah had , to command ceremonies once made , to be observed , the same authoritie , and none other in matter of ceremonies , doeth your canon yeald vnto the King : And therfore we beseech your Lordships hereafter to carry such a loyall and conscionable reverence , and estimation , to the honor and dignitie of our Christian King , and the noblenes of his kingly charitie declared by his proclamation , as that hereafter in your consistories and publique seates of Iudgement , you would vse conferences , arguments , and perswasions , wayes of love , and gentlenes , workings by clemencie , and weight of reason , to reclayme all that be in the ministerie , to the obedience of the church lawes , according as by the Kings proclamation you are required ; rather thē by rigour of law , shaking the kings sword , and pressing the kings commandement , to enforce the trembling consciences of your weake brethren , contrarie to the Kings most noble & christian intention plainly vttered by his proclamation . There be sundrie other poyntes in his Maiesties proclamation , which by your Lordships worthily deserved consideration , before you had begun those violēt courses , which some of you have pursued in this case : The peremptory day assigned to the Ministers for their conformitie by the King , being of more authoritie then 1000. of your canonicall admonitious , would have bene fully expired , before you had troubled the Ministers about this matter , otherwise then by conferences , argumentes , perswasions , &c. All Ministers who had incurred no censures of the church or penalties of the law in the Queenes tyme , or since the Kings raigne , before the sixth of Iuly 1604. be exempted out of the proclamation ; though before the day appointed , they have not conformed them selves , to the orders of the Church . And yet many such have you disquieted ? The Lawes and orders of the Church remayne very vncerteyne , so as it is not certeyne , to what lawes and orders established the ministers should conforme them selves , And yet before the day expired , you have vrged some Ministers to cōforme them selves to Canons divulged since the Proclamation . The Canon law , is vtterly voyd within the Realme , and therefore your oath of Canonicall obedience is of no force , and all your Canonicall admonitions not worth a rush . The old provinciall constitutions , intreat of no such oath , besides they litle or nothing respect any orders , or ceremonies of our Church . To which booke of common prayer the Ministers should subscribe , in that maner and forme , as by the Canon is required , is not decided . If they subscribe to the booke published since the Kings raigne , they may then be called into question , at every sessions & assises , for vsing an other forme , then is prescribed in the Queenes booke , the same remayning still in force & vnrepealed : if subscription be vrged to the Queenes booke , then may not the Ministers yeeld therevnto , because the Kinge and Bishops have concluded to reforme some things conteyned in the same , as being repugnant to the holy word of God. Besides , the booke of common prayer of the second of Edward 6. touching ornamentes , rites and ceremonies , and wherevnto for the same respect both the Queenes and the Kings booke hath reference , revived this last Parliament , by disannulling the statute of repeale made the first of Queene Mary . This book , we say of the 2. of Edw. 6 ▪ establishing other ornaments , rites and ceremonies , then the former bookes doe , some of those ceremonies also to be vsed , or at least at every mans devotion , and the ornaments after another maner thē ours , make vs greatly to stand in doubt , whether all ceremonies , conteyned in every of these bookes , or but some , or which of them , are to be vsed , yea or no. Touching the late Canons , of what authoritie many of them be , may iustly be questioned : because some of them seeme vnto vs , to be contrariant or repugnant to the lawes , statutes , & customes of the realme , som to be derogatorie to the Kings prerogative royall , and other some to be repugnant to the holy word of God , and therefore in all these three respects to be voyd canons , by the common law , & statutes of the realme . Lastly , howsoever some ministers might be within the cōpasse of the proclamation , not conforming them selves , before the last of Novēb . to the lawes established before the 16. of Iuly , neverthelesse the Bishops after the day expired , ought to have attēded the Kings pleasure , by what wayes and meanes , he had determined to take from among the people ; all occasions of sectes , divisions and vnquietnes , much lesse before the day , should they have attempted any thing , vnlesse , as the proclamation requireth them , they had provided meete persons , to bee substitutes , in the places of those , who wilfully had abandoned their charges . These things being thus most providently , nobly , and Royally , for the quietnes of the church , set forth by the Kings proclamation , it had bene a parte of very great wisedome and moderation for your Lordships ( in our opinions ) paciently to have expected the Kings further direction , before by your vntimely pressing the kinges commandement , authoritie and rigour of his lawes , ye had indevoured the inforcing of their consciences , without perswasions by weight of reason ; And so much the rather should your Lordships have done this , that hereby ye might have satisfied , all civill Magistrates , Gentlemen and others of vnderstandinge , that they seeing by your conferences , argumentes , perswasions , love , gentlenes , clemencie , and weight of reason , that the cause which you maintayne , & not that which they impugne , is good , might not in any sorte have supported , favoured , or countenanced any factious ministers , in their obstinacie , as by the proclamation they are required . And yet by your Lordships favour , not to conceale any thing , which hetherto we have ( as we thinke ) rightly conceaved of the Kinges proclamation , we can not but informe your Lordships , that by the same the King hath more tēdered the good estate of the ministers , & of their controversie in hand , then ever was tēdred , by any former Prince , since poperie was banished . For when was there in England , before this time , by any kingly proclamation , any conference , argument , perswasion , love , gentlenes , clemencie ▪ & weight of reason , commanded , & rigor of the law forbidden to be vsed by the Archbishops & Bishops , for the reclayming of the ministers to the lawes of the church ? When were any ministers by publike authoritie , called , as it were , into open field , to stand vpon arguments and weight of reason ? Whē was it appointed by publike authoritie , that any ministers should answere , and that Archbishops & Bishops should oppose ? that the ministers should be defendants , and the Bishops plaintifes ? When was it proclaymed , by any Princes authoritie , that the Archbishops and Bishops , to their vttermost indevours , by argumentes , and weight of reason , should prove vnto the ministers , that the book of cōmon prayer , bookes of homilies , booke of cōsecrating Bishops , Priests , and Deacons , book of Articles , and other lawes , & orders of the church conteyne nothing , in the whole , or in any parte , disagreeable either in doctrine , or governement to the word of God ? All which things by the proclamation , are intended should be done , which things also if the Archbishops & Bishops have done , thē indeed we confesse , the ministers ( that have not yeelded to conforme thēselves ) to be wilfull , & the King to be righteous , for the abandoning of sectes , divisions and vnquietnes , among his people , if he shall allow no factious ministers in their obstinacie . But if the Archbishops and Bishops have not endevoured , much lesse not indevoured to the vttermost of their powers ( as by the king they are required ) by conferences , arguments , perswasions , love , gentlenes , clemencie , and weight of reason , to reclayme al ministers , to the obedience of the church lawes ; then wee can not see , how any civill Magistrates , Gentlemen , or others of vnderstanding , can be intended by the proclamation to be favourers , supporters , or contenancers , of factiousnes , or obstinacie in the ministers , which are not conformable . As for those two and twentie thousande Ministers , if possible there could have bene so many , who , without any conferences , argumentes , perswasions , or weight of reason vsed by the Archbishops , or Bishops , have turned their heeles , and as Gedeons tymerous and fearfull soldiours , have returned and departed early from mount Gilead , before the appointed tyme came , we leave them to the Lord , vnto whom in this case they have stood , or fallen . And who is able , to rayse thē vp though for a tyme they be downe ? Nay , if of the tenne thousande ( if possible there were so many ) which bee left , there should nine thousande seven-hundered , bowe downe their knees , to drinke water at the Bishops poole , and but 300. only should stand vp , to lapp water with their tongues , as a dogge lappeth , in that well of water , which springeth to eternal life , yet by these 300. only , is the Lord able to save Israell , and to deliver the Medianites into Gedeons hand . Nay , if of these 300. but two only shall stand vp , clothed in sackcloth , to be witnesses , yet in the end , shall these two witnesses , bee two Olyve trees , and two Candlestickes standing before God , who governeth the earth , out of whose mouth , if any will hurt them , shall fire proceed and devoure their enemies . And thus much have we thought necessarie to be spoken , touching our vnderstanding of the Kings pleasure and commaund , declared by his Highnes proclamation ; yea this also have we done , not onely in regard of our loyaltie vnto our christian King , but also in regard of the clearing of ourselves from every vniust imputation of being favourers , supporters , or countenancers of factious ministers in their obstinacie , praying your Lordships to cary a favourable construction of these our Demaundes ; Because our desire is to be fully satisfied by holy Writt , and not rest our iudgementes vpon humane authoritie , especially sithence both your Lordships and our selves , by the experience of full fiftie yeares , have both heard and seene how vnprofitably , and to no good purpose this salve of humane power hath bene applied vnto the church surfeted with drinkings , and eatings , of that romish strumpet : yea and for our parts , we can not but be hartily sory , that after so long a time of triall , your Lordships should still remayne so vnperswasible , as not once to make experiment of the powring in of some more sweete and medicinable oyle , to this so deadly and desperate a wound : Especiallie , the sore being at this day as deepe , as noysome , and as full of dead flesh , as the same was the very first moment , that your predecessors began to stoppe the issue thereof , with this kinde of humane tente . And so wee will proceed to our last ground drawne out of holy Writt , for the resolutenes of our iudgementes wherevpon , and wherein we yet stand . The third ground . If thy brother be grieved for the meate , now walkest thou not charitably , destroy not him with thy meate , for whom Christ dyed . It is evill for the man , which eateth with offence . It is good neither to eate flesh , nor to drink wine , nor any other thing , whereby thy brother stumbleth , or is offended , or made weake . Let vs not therefore iudge one an other any more , but vse your iudgment rather in this , that no man put an occasion to fall , or a stumbling block before his brother . From which grounds we demand . First , whether your Lordships iudge not all godly Ministers & true beleevers within your iurisdictions , to be your Christian brethren . And whetherye , and they bee not all sonnes vnto one Father , and servants vnto one Lord ? Whether your Lordships be not of opinion , that the putting , and not putting on of a Surplice , the making & the not making of a crosse vpō the childs forehead in Baptisme , the wearing & not wearing of a square Cap ; and kneeling and not kneeling , in the acte of receiving bread and wine at the Lords Table , be not things in their owne nature of like indifferencie , as were the eating , and not eating of meates , drinking and not drinking of wine , or any thing in the Apostles time ? Whether your Lordships can prove by any place of holy writt , that these rules and precepts given by the Apostles of not greeving a brother for meate ; of not walking charitably by eating meate : of not destroying him , for whom Christ died with meate ; of not doing evill by eating meate , of not eating or drinking , whereby a brother stumbleth , is offended , or made weake , and of not putting an occasion , to fall before a brother by eating meate . We demand , ( we say ) whether these the Apostles commandements , in the not doing of all things of like indifferencie , with that of not eating meate , and not drinking wine , do not aswell bind your Lordships at this day , as they did the Bishops , Pastours , Elders and Brethren of that time ? And therefore we demand : If any of your Ll. had bene Archbishop of Ephesus , or of Creete , had bene Bishop of Ierusalem , Rome or Colosse , in the Apostles time : whether vnder the title of order & vniformitie , or by right of superioritie & power , ( you might without breach or cōtradiction of the Apostles doctrine ) have cōmanded any brethren , within your charge , being weak in faith , to have eaten meats , forbiddē by the law , or sacrificed vnto Idols ? Againe , if any of your Lordships in the Apostles time , had bene an Archbishop or a Bishop , and by your Archiepiscopall , or Episcopall authoritie , had commaunded the Pastours , Elders and Brethren vnder your chardge , being weake in faith , by example of the strong in faith , and for conformities sake , to have eaten meates sacrificed vnto Idols , or forbidden by the law ; we demand , whether such your commandement had bene a charitable commandement , yea or no ? Yea , and we demand , whether the same your commandement ( vnder what pretence of canonicall obedience , vnitie or conformitie , soever ) might have excused the weake in faith , from sinning against Christ , if at your commandment they being not fully perswaded in their minds , had eaten of these meates doubtingly ? And if the Apostles charitie were so great , as that he would never have eaten flesh , while the world stādeth , rather then he would greeve or offend his weak brother , or give him an occasion to sinne ; we demād how small charitie the men of our age may seeme to have , who be so far frō not greeving & not offending a weak brother , & of not giving him an occasion to sinne , as that not only they content not thē selves , by eating flesh themselves , to grieve & to offend a weak brother , & to give him an occasion to sinne , but also cōmand a weake brother to eate that meate , by eating wherof , he can not but fal , but stumble , but grieve , but offend , but sinne , and but destroy him selfe ? This kind of charitie may deserve vnhappely the name of some Synodal or Provincial charitie , but certes it can neverworthely deserve to be called an Apostolicall charitie . But , Sirs , you mistake the matter very much , you deceive your selves , & draw not the cases rightly : The vse of Crosses , Copes , Surplices , Cappes , & kneelings are cōmanded by the christiā Magistrates soveraigne authority , only as things indifferēt for orders sake , & not that men should be grieved and offended , or that they should fall , stumble , sinne , & destroy them selves : Touching the christian Magistrates authoritie about ordering rites & ceremonies in the church , we have somewhat at large argued before , which we had thought might have fully satisfied your Lordships , but because it pleaseth you still to presse vs with the same , we must once againe plainly signifie vnto you ; that we beleeve , that your selves do not attribute any more spirituall authoritie vnto the King , to make , constitute and ordeine canons , constitutions , rites or ceremonies , then you give vnto him spirituall power to preach the word , administer the Sacraments , and excommunicate : For we beleeve , that your selves with the residue of the clergie , assembled by the Kings writt , in your convocation , doe chalendge all spirituall power vnto your selves , to make , ordeine and decree all maner of canons , constitutions , ordinances , ornaments , rites and ceremonies in the Church . Yea , and this spirituall power we beleeve , that you pretend to be derived vnto your selves , and the rest of the clergie in the convocation , not from any spirituall power invested in the person of our soveraigne Lord the King , but onely from the spirituall power of our Saviour Christ alone . And this is manifest by your Cxxxix . canon , for so are your words : Whosoever shall hereafter affirme that the Sacred Synode of this nation in the name of Christ , and by the Kings authoritie assembled , is not the church of England by representation , let him be excommunicated , &c. These wordes ( wee say ) of your canon , viz. Sacred Synod is assembled in the name of Christ , and by authoritie of the King , plainely testifie , that you hold your Synode not to be assembled by authoritie of the King , in the name of the King , or in the name of Christ and the King , but only in the name of Christ : And therefore by your owne wordes , wee are inforced to beleeve that you attribute vnto the King none other authoritie , then such as you attribute to the godly Kinges of Judah : namely an authoritie to assemble and command your persons , as they assembled and commanded the persons of the Priestes . What ? to execute the rites and ceremonies of the Kinges of Iudah ? No : but to execute the rites and ceremonies of God. And so we beleeve your persons being assembled by authoritie and commandement of the King , that your selves by your owne authoritie , and that in the name and by the power of Christ , and not in the name and power of the King , doe ordeine , decree and make canons , constitutions , rites and ceremonies , as if they were sent vnto vs , by your handes , from God. And thus much doe the very first words of your first canon , and some words in your 140. 141. canons clearly prove : For howsoever in the title of your book , you vse these words : Constitutions and Canons treated and agreed vpon , by the Bishop of London , &c. Yet both in the proheme & body of your first canō , you affirme as followeth . In your proheme or title you say thus : the Kings supremacy over the church of Englād in causes ecclesiastical , you say not over the church & causes , but over the church in causes ▪ and in the body of the same canō you say , we first decree & ordeine , that the Archb. of Canterbury , &c. and in the Cxl. canon your words are these : Whosoever shall affime , that no maner of person , &c. are to be subiect to the decrees therof ( speaking of the Synod eccllesiasticall ) made & ratified by the kings Maiesties supreame authority , &c. let him be , &c. your words also in your last canō , are these , whosoever shal hereafter affirm , &c. that the sacred Sinod assembled , &c. was a company of persons , &c. in making canons & cōstitutions in causes ecclesiasticall , &c. ought to be despised , &c. the same being ratified , confirmed and inioyned by the regall power , supremacie and authoritie , lett them be excommunicated ; Now by all these your owne words and sentences , we decree & ordeine : decrees of the Synod , making canons by the sacred Synod ; ratified , confirmed , inioyned by the regall power , &c. by all these words ( we say ) we can not but beleeve , that you chalendge your ecclesiasticall power of ordeining , decreeing , & making decrees , canons , constitutions , rites and ceremonies , to be invested in your owne persons assembled by authoritie of the King , from the authoritie and power of Christ ; and not from any spirituall or ecclesiasticall power , invested in the person of the King , and derived , and conveighed vnto your persons assembled by his regall writt , For then how should we not beleeve also , but that you iudged the Kings writt , to be no civil , but an ecclesiasticall and spirituall writt . But howsoever ( as yet ) wee beleeve not this latter , yet still we beleeve , that you appropriate vnto your owne persons assembled by the Kings writt , a sole power , and that from our Saviour Christ , to give vnto your decrees , canons , constitutions , rites and ceremonies , their first being and their first birthright : and that you assigne vnto the King none other power , but a power of their after birth , & of ratifying and confirming of that life , & being , which your persons have first put into them : So that the King is in this , but as it were an executioner of your canons , and not you the executioners of the Kings decrees . Yea & thus much M. Doctor Bilson , in his Book intituled , True difference , betweene Christian subiection , & vnchristian rebellion , Pag. 243. avoweth & testifieth , whose words are these ; We never said that Princes had any spirituall power , it is a false collection of yours , it is no part of our cōfession , & the sword which they bear , we never called but external & tēporall . Againe to devise new rites and ceremonies for the Church , is not the Princes vocation , but to receive and allow such as the Scriptures and canons commend , and such as the Bishops & Pastours of the place shall advise , not infringing the Scriptures or canons , & so for all other ecclesiasticall things & causes , Princes be neither the devisors nor directors of them , but the confirmers and establishers of that which is good , and displacers , and revengers of that which is evill , which power we say they have in all things , be they spirituall , ecclesiasticall or temporall . ibid. pag. 252. Yea , and moreover we beleeve , if any should impugne or gaine-say , this your power of making spirituall and ecclesiasticall decrees , in your convocatiō , not to belong properly to your ministeriall power which you have by your divine offices in the church , that you would then fly for the interpretation of the statute : 1. Elizab. to our late Queenes iniunctions ; wherby it is declared that nothing was , is , or shal be meant , or intēded by the oath required , to have any other duety allegeance , or band , then was acknowledged to be due to the most noble Kinges , of famous memorie K. H. the eight hir Maiesties Father , or to K. Ed. 6. hir Maiesties brother : And that the Kings and Queenes of this Realme , may not challendge authoririe and power of any ministery of divine offices in the Churches . But vnder God to have soveraintie & rule of all maner of persons borne within hir Realmes , so as no other foreigne power , shal or ought to have any superioritie over them ; vpon this iniunction ( we say ) we build our former credence , that your Lordships iudge your only persons , and the persons of the rest of the Clergie , & not the ministerie of your divine offices , or any parte thereof , to be vnder the obedience of the Kings power ; vnto which ministerie also of divine offices , you attribute right of ordeyning and making canons , rites and ceremonies in the Church , as a right properly incident and appertaining to that ministery , not of doctrine , but of divine governement , which you challendge to be due vnto you , as vnto Ministers and Officers appointed to rule and governe the Church vnder Christ , by the holy Scriptures ; And therefore we pray your Lordships henceforwards to put vs vnto no more paine , to answere this your argument , of Kingly and supreame authoritie . For we beleeve assuredly , if Archbishops , Bishops , Deanes , Archdeacons and the rest of the clergie , assembled by the Kings writt , by their deliberate counsaile , voluntary and vnconstrayned will , had not in their Synod decreed the vse of Copes , Surplices , Crosses , square Cappes , Tippets , and such trash , or if they had not by the president of their assembly , most instantly supplicated the King to command the vse of these things , thus ordeined by them selves : we perswade our selves assuredly , that the King by his absolute , regall and supreame power , would never have constrayned , Archbishops , Bishops , Deanes , Archdeacons , &c. to have vndergone the yoke of these ceremonies ; for the King right well knoweth , that in so doing , he should not have walked in the wayes of the Godly kings of Iudah , then whose holy example to followe , his Highnes hath protested , to desire nothing more . Neither for any other purpose , as it seemeth vnto vs , by your late speaches in the eares of the King ( no ceremony , no Bishop ) doe your selves presse these ceremonies , then that they should be in your owne hands , as crosier staves , to stay vp from falling the tottering walles of your Lordly Iurisdictions . And yet because we never read in holy Writt , that any ceremony was ever planted by our heavenly Father , to bee a leanetoo , for any Bishops of Gods planting , or that the vnplanting of an humane ceremony , would be the vnplanting of any of Gods Bishops , what should we gather from hence , but that your Lordships bee no Bishops of Gods planting ; for Bishops planted by the hande of God , in the Vineyard of Christ , be so fast sett , and so deeply rooted , that by no blast or storme of humane ceremonies , they can be blowne vp . And thus much touching your argument of the Kings cōmandement , for orders sake ; As for the indifferencie of the things commanded , the same hath already bene handled in an other place ; but touching the last part of your exception , that the vse of these things is not commanded , to the end , that men should be grieved , offended , fall , stumble , sinne , & destroy them selves ; we reiect this , as an impertinent & insufficient answere to our demand ; for our demand tendeth not to insinuate , that we think , that these things be commanded to the end , that every man by the vse of them , should sinne , but our demand concerneth the vncharitable commandement , of the vse of these things imposed vpon a weake brother , which weake brother , by the vse of these things ( notwithstanding the commandement ) can not but full , but stumble , but give an offence , but sinne . What ? because of the commandement ? No : but by reason of his weaknes , which the commandement hath not power to ridd , and take from him . And therefore vnles your Lordships by some learning taught you in holy Writt , can informe your selves , & our Christian Magistrate , that your Synode in the Apostles absence , is placed in the Apostolike chaire , and being so placed , hath also received by the Apostles doctrine , an Apostolike authoritie , to commande those thinges in his absence , which he expresly forbade in his presence , wee doubt greatly whether your convocationall assembly , can charitably by Gods Law command the weake in faith , to eate meate sacrificed vnto Idols , and so by consequence to weare a Surplice , a Cope , a square Cap , a shaven Crowne , a Fryers Coule , or a Monckes Hood , yea or no ? Nay , sithence the Apostle hath directly , and in plaine termes forbidden the strong in faith , the eating of meate sacrificed vnto Idolls ; because of him that shewed it , and for the conscience , not of thine , but of that other which sayeth , this is sacrificed vnto Idols ; and if withall , hee have taught , that it is evill , for a man to eate with offence : we demand , by what rule of holy Writt , your Lordships can assure the conscience of our Christian Magistrate , and the soules of your assembly in convocation , that his Highnes and they shall doe charitably , vprightly , and not sinne , in the sight of the Lord , in case by a commandement , ye impose a necessitie of eating meates , or vsing things of like indifferencie , vpon the weake , which the weake , by the Apostles doctrine have free libertie , nay rather which by the Apostles doctrine they be taught , so longe as they be weake , not to vse . Besides , if eating , drinking , appareling , crossing or kneeling , doubtingly & without faith , or with offence , be sinnes against the soule & defilements of the soule , we then pray your Ll. to deale plainly with vs , & divinely to teach vs , whether it be an Apostolike charitie , to cōmand the doing of a thing which can not be done , either by the weak in faith , but doubtingly ; or by the strong in faith without offence , giving an occasion to fall , or putting a stumbling block before his brother ? But , Sirs , by your patience , the Christian Magistrate doeth not inioyne , neither doeth the Clergie in their convocation decree , that the Ministers or people , should weare a Surplice , make a Crosse , or kneele doubtingly and without faith , only his commandement is , that they kneele , that they make a crosse , and that they weare a Surplice . Yea , by your Lordships favour , we demand , whether such their doubting , & such their being without faith , can either be purged by any glister or be dispensed with , by any facultie of humane authoritie ? Yea , and whether any humane dispensation , or purgative receipt , may be of such validitie and operation , in foro conscientiae , that it may exempt the patient , or the dispencer in foro conscientiae from sinne , in case hee iudge his apparell , crossings and kneelings , to be vncleane ? For though the Christian Magistrate , be perswaded through the Lord Iesus , that there is nothing vncleane of it selfe , yet to him that iudgeth it vncleane , to him it is vncleane . And therefore albeit the christian Magistrate may not sinne in his commandement , yet may neither Minister nor people , be without sinne , in their obedience . For the conscience only of the cōmander ( be he never so Christian ) can not be any warrant for the conscience of him that obeyeth doubtingly . But , Sirs , it is their folly , & their wilfull peevishnes , that ( having bene so long a time instructed ) they have no better profited , in the knowledg of their christian libertie , & of the cleanes of the things : ( by my faith ) if they continew weake longe , it were not amisse to bring some of them to the stake . Oh! my Lords , bona verba quaesumus , soft fire maketh sweet malt , preach faith we beseech your Lordships , but swear not by your faith : For by your Lordships favour , if the Apostle ( having aswel by doctrine as by example taught the weak brethren , among the Romans and Corinthians , of their Christian libertie , did neither reprove them of peevishnes , wilfulnes , or folly , neither yet condemne their ignorance of Christian libertie to be a sinne against Christ , albeit the same their ignorance , consisted only about the vse of meates , created for the benefit of mans life ; wee desire your Lordships to resolve vs out of holy Writt , whether ignorance of Christian libertie , in the weake of our time , which consisteth about the vse of things dedicated to the service of an Idoll , may be a sinne against Christ , for not vsing the same , in the worship of the true God ? Besides , we demand , by what rule of holy wtitt your Lordships in these things may condemne an other mans servant , or iudge his errour of christian libertie in this case , to bee worthy of punishment ? For seeing ye be not able to make him stand , whom God hath left weak , & not inabled to stand : And seeing the Apostle did not prescribe vnto the weake brethren of his time , any time for the amendement of their errour , of the not vse of things indifferent , but did rather bind him self & all other , for all ages to come , by his example , never to eate flesh , while the world standeth , that he might not offend his brother , or cause him to fall , or to stumble : The Apostle , we say , having appointed no time , no not while the world stādeth in this case , & all others of the same nature , we demand , by what rule of holy Writt , your Lordships may limite a certaine time , as by the eight , tenth or twelfe moneth for the reformation of iudgment , in this but supposed errour , of not vsing Popish apparell , crossings and kneelings ? Nay if by the decree & canons of the Apostle , both Ministers & people , be infranchised , to vse , and not to vse , these things freely & frankly without lett ; we then demand , by what rule of holy Writ , it may be lawfull for your Synode , by a provinciall ordinance and constitution , to change and to turne this their Christian freedome and libertie , into a meere slavish servitude and necessitie ? And therefore we protest from your Synod , and avow , that your Synode in this case , was not guided by the spirite of Christ , and that therevpon it followeth your decrees , ( so many of them ) as abate the edge of charitie , whetted vpon the brethren , by the Apostles rule , or bringing into bondage againe , servants manumissed by the authoritie of Christ , that the same your decrees are both erroneous in them selves , and iniurious to the church of God. For vnlesse the world have bene dissolved since the Apostles tyme , and that the same world , stand not now , which stood then ; or vnles the same be not charitie now , and the same freedome now , which the Apostle cōmended for charitie , and left for freedome : or vnles you would have vs , winke with our eyes , least we should see , and stoppe our eares , least wee should heare , and harden our heartes least we should vnderstand , & consequently have no faith , except it be a Synodall , a Provinciall , or a Canturbury-church faith : we must needes speake both what wee have seene , what we have heard , and what we have vnderstood , out of holy scriptures ; Namely that some of your Synodall decrees be opposite & repugnant to the Apostles both christian charitie and christian libertie . For if it be sinne for one brother , to do any acte , by doing whereof an other brothers conscience , is wounded and made weak ; if also whosoever shall wound the weake conscience , of a brother , and sinne against a brother , doth sinne against Christ : then of necessitie be your canons of popish rites & ceremonies , both vncharitable canons against your brethren , & sinfull canons against Christ . For though it were free for christians to vse Copes , Surplices , square Cappes , Crosses , &c. civilly vpon their backes , heads or foreheads ; yet if some remayne ignorant of this libertie , and thinking them to be vncleane , as having bene things offered to the service of an Idoll , should by the example of others , with wavering consciences , enterprise to vse them , when inwardly they thinke the vse of them to displease God : if in this case ( we saye ) men shall sinne against Christ : how much more shall they sinne against Christ , when they shall vse them in the worship of God ? against which vse , they have many testimonies out of holy Writt , seated in their consciences by the finger of God , that their vse is altogether vnlawfull in the worship of God. On the other side , if it be no sinne against Christ , for weake brethren not to vse either these or any other relickes , monumentes and memorialls of Idolatrie ; in the service and worship of the true God : If also the weake in faith can not vse thē waveringly , without sinne against Christ , If lastly they have libertie and freedome , by the Apostles doctrine , not to vse them at all ; we desire your Lordships to resolve vs out of holy Writt , how it may be lawfull , in foro conscientiae , to bring weake brethren , before the seates of Magistrates , to excommunicate them , to revile them , & to speak all maner of evill against them , for vsing their Apostolicall freedome , for being charitable , and for not committing sinne . But , Sirs , by your patience , they be not handled after any such maner , simply , and only for not vsing the Surplice , not making a crosse , not kneeling in the act of receyving the communion , but for contempt of not vsing and making the same , and not kneeling at the comandement of the christian Magistrate , whom not to obey in things indifferent , is to sinne against Christ ; and for this sinne they ought to be excommunicated , &c. Though this be a Maxime in some learning , non solent quae superabundant vitiare scripturas ; yet by your Lordships favour , your &c. swelleth to high , and gulleth the passages of a softe spirit overmuch : your argument also of christian Magistracy ; at the least three times already vrged , is in this place more then superabundant , as amounting above the third , vnto a fourth degree of comparison . But to the poyntes . And first , because ( as earst hath bene said ) it was the decree , and supplication of your Synod that begate this commandement , and not this commandement , that travayled , and brought your Synodall decree and supplication to the birth : touching which your Synodall decree , for the vse of these ornaments , rites & ceremonies , by the weak , what els is there to be added , then that we deny againe , what in effect , more then once , & twice , we have in this behalfe denied before : namely granting these thinges in their owne nature to be indifferent , and that they may be vsed in the service of God , by them that be strong in faith , & have knowledge of their indifferencie : neverthelesse we deny that by any Decree of the Church , they may be appointed to be vsed , by the weake , and them that have no knowledge of their indifferencie : For this we have learned of the nature of things indifferent , if the cōscience be strong , that the things be good ; if the conscience be weake , that they bee evill : not in regarde of their owne nature , but in regarde of the conscience of him that iudgeth them to be evill . For as it is not meate it selfe , but the vse of meate , wherevnto the Apostle would have men sticke , so is it not apparell , a Crosse , or a Ceremonie , wherevpon the servantes of Christ are to cast their eyes , that they may not be reprehended , by their consciences rightly guyded , for the vse of that thing which they vse ; And how should a conscience bee rightly guyded in the thing which he vseth , vnles he have grounde out of Gods worde for the thinge which he vseth ? But he hath ( you will say ) a commaundement of God , to obey the higher powers , in the vse of thinges indifferent . This is true in deed ( saye we ) if they ( having for the guyde of their consciences , the holy worde of God ) shall iudge the thinges , and the vse of the things , for the service wherevnto they bee commaunded , to be indifferent ; but they being not fully perswaded in their myndes , both of the indifferencie of the thinges , and of the vse of the things , in that service wherevnto they bee commaunded , how can your Lordships proove , that in this case the Church may decree , and the Magistrate command them to do an act , in the doing whereof , they shall commit sinne , yea and which they can by no meanes avoyde , if in doing the thing commanded , they stand in doubt . For he that doubteth is condemned , in that he doth , because he doeth it not of faith . And what soever is not of faith , is sinne . Wherefore , because no canon , nor decree of the Church , can cleanse a mans conscience of the weaknes of faith , or poure strength into the same that he sinne not ; we affirme , that every decree , and canon of your Synod , which giveth an occasion of offence , and emboldeneth the weak in faith to sinne , by the vse of these rites and ceremonies , in the worship of God , is a Canon and is a Decree conteyninge matter in the substance of it , contrary and repugnant to the doctrine of the Apostle : And that therefore it is no sinne , for any brother weake in fayth , not to obey the same , though at the request of your Synod , it hath pleased our Christian Magistrate to inioyne him therevnto : because the ground-worke of your Decree being sandy , the buylding of the Magistrate , can not surely and firmely stande : This your Lordships argument therefore of the lawfull vse of indifferent things , by commandement of the christian Magistrate , for orders sake , is but a begging of the point in question : For wee hold , that no church , nor christian Magistrate , can decree or impose any rites and ceremonies ( being relickes , monuments , or memorialls of idolatrie ) to be vsed , no not for orders sake , in the worship of the true God ; because the vse of all relickes , monumentes , and memorialles of idolatrie , in divine worship , is not a thing , not only not indifferēt , but a thing in all respectes , meerely and absolutely vnlawfull . And therefore it importeth your Lordships to proove vnto vs , by some holy Writt , the contrary of that which we affirme : namely , that the vse of all Relickes , Monumentes , and Memorialles of Idolatrie , ( as thinges indifferent for orders sake ) may be decreed by the Church , and inioyned by the Christian Magistrate , in the worship of God ; what we have alleadged out of holy Writt , for the proofe of our generall negative , your Lordships have seene and read , And now we wayte and exspect that you would produce your stronge reasons , for the proofe of your generall affirmative . Our generall negative is this . No Reliques , Monumentes , or Memorialls of Idolatrie may lawfully be decreed by the Church , or inioyned by the Christian Magistrate to be vsed by the ministers and servants of Christ , as indifferent rites and ceremonies , for orders sake , in the worship of God : And if none , Then not your Copes , Surplices , Crosses , &c. Your Lordships affirmation . All Reliques , Monumentes , and Memorialls of Idolatrie , may lawfullie be decreed by the Church and inioyned by the Christian Magistrate to be vsed by the Ministers & servants of Christ , as indifferēt rites & ceremonies , for orders sake in the worship of God : And if all , why not then a Friers coule , for an Archbishop : a Monkes hood , for a Bishop : a shaven crowne , for a Deane ? and a shaven chinne for an Archdeacon ? But now alas , alas , to adde and to speake but one worde touching the vse of these rites , &c. appointed by your Synod for orders sake , may not we , and all the Churches take vp a complaynt , and lamentably cry , saying : Alas , alas , what ? Was it not possible for your sacred Synod assembled ( as you say ) in the name of Christ , but that the same must decree popish and Idolatrous rites and ceremonies , to be still continued in the church for orders sake ? Or was it not possible , for your sacred Synod , assembled ( as you say ) in the name of Christ , but that the same must needes devise and decree such rites , and ceremonies , for orders sake , as by the vse whereof your weake brethren , the servantes of Christ , can not be but tempted , and captiously insnared ? Or was it not possible for your Synod , to have vsed their iudgement , but to the perill of the soules of their brethren ? but to put occasions of falling and of stumbling , before their brethren ? But by your patience , Sirs , we abhorre the popish pollutions of the Surplice , of the Crosse , and of the Idolatrous kneeling to a piece of bread . And as we take not our garmentes , rites , and ceremonies from the papistes , but from their betters , so we professe the detestation of their superstitious abuses , and restore them to their ancient integrity . But by your Lordships favour , all men have not knowledge of the Idoll , as you have , All mens knowledge among vs doth not edifie , but by their knowledge many men be puffed vp : All men among vs professe not a detestation of their pollutions : All men doe not knowe those betters from whom ( as you say ) they were taken . Neither lastly doe all men vnderstande , what that ancient integritie is whereof you speake . The Papistes you know , as they daily commit fornication with that great whore , so doe they greatly delite , and much solace them selves , to see their minionly Priestes attired in the vnchast colours of their wanton paramoure . Nay , with great insolencie and ostentation they vaunt , that Crosses , Surplices , &c. are to be received and vsed , not as things indifferent , but as necessarie parts of Gods divine worship . The Atheistes , as they neither embrace the doctrine , nor reverence the person of the Minister of Christ , much lesse doe they regard from whence ministeriall apparell originally came . Only if they live vnder an ordinary , who glorieth to be a ceremonie master , they can then find witt , and opportunitie , and agilitie , and nimblenes ynough , to make vse of these ceremonies , as by them to worke mischief against their Godly Minister , if at any time them selves be reproved for their drunkennes , whoredome , vsurie , swearing , poperie and such like : But if any of them being of the age of 60. 70. or 80. yeares , shal be willed by their honest ordinarie , to returne home , and to learne of their Minister the Catechisme , before they prosecute their presentment , for the not wearing of a Surplice in this case , rather then they wil be religiously taught the principles of godlines , at their Ministers hand , they force not for xxv . yeares space together , to bee wholy silent : Liking in the meane while the not wearing of a Surplice well ynough . And as for our partes , and others of the Religion , we doubt very much whether your Lordships be able to prove , that the Surplice , the crosse in Baptisme , or kneeling in the act of receiving the Communion , were by their first originall of any integritie , for an orderly or comely vse of outward divine service or worship , as now they be vsed , yea or no ; For though now they bee vrged as decent and comely signes and ornaments , to the forme of Gods worship ; yet if at the beginning they were not for this end and purpose , drawne directly or by consequence , from some expresse commandement of God , but were meerely the devises & inventions of men : then can we not assure our selves , that they be restored , to their ancient integritie . For how should their originall bee of ancient integritie , when they had beginning , not from the will of God , but from the witt of man ? not from the Well of life , but from the pitt of death ? when they were not pure , but corrupt , & therefore without integritie ? For which cause we are to beware least we be taken in a snare by them , provoking the Lord to anger through the workes of our owne hands . And howsoever these ceremonies be taken from men , better affected to the Gospell , then be the Papistes : neverthelesse seeing servants ( be they never so young ) are not to be guided by their fellow servants ( be they never so old ) without knowledge of their Lord & Masters pleasure , first declared vnto them by his Prophets or Apostles , we pray your Lordships to prove vnto vs , out of holy Writt , that these ceremonies hold their originall from God. For , if they be not according to the old way , which is the good way , and wherein we are bidd to stand , and to behold , and to aske after it , namely , the Testimonie which is bound vp , and the Law which is sealed vp among Gods Disciples , then shall the Pastours offend for running about so much , to change their wayes , going after things that doe not profit ; yea ( if they doe not according to this word ) they may iustly be reproved , because their is no light in them . The ancienty then of your ceremonies , let the same be as ancient as possibly ye can devise , yet in respect of the ancient of dayes , and of him that inhabiteth the eternitie , they shal be but novelties , and the Author of them but a novelist . For as this saying in the Schoole of reason , is true , omne magnum tum est paruum , cum sit aliquid maius ; so is this saying also in the same Schoole true , omne vetus tum est novum , cum sit aliquid vetustius . Yea and the holy Scriptures teach vs , to call those things new , whatsoever man inventeth , be the errour never so old . They have ( saith the holy Ghost ) offered vnto Devills , not vnto God , but to gods whom they knew not : new gods , that came newly vp , whom their Fathers feared not ; And in an other place , they are pronounced to be accursed when they turne after other gods , which they have not known , whereby also is reproved the vanitie and fondnes of those men , which leave that which is certeine , to follow that which is vncerteine . If the Apostle then , the first and most ancient father of all the children whom he begate with the word of the Gospell , and the planter of all the Churches among the Gentils , never knew those or any the like rites , ornaments , or ceremonies , much lesse never knew them to be for any decent and orderly forme of Gods worship , in any of the churches which he begate , and which he planted ; it must needes follow ( as wee conceave ) that the children of the Church , ( who devised and appointed these rites and ceremonies , for an orderly and decent forme of Gods worship , in the ages succeeding the Apostles ) left the ancient integritie together with the certaine and single forme of Gods worship , setled in the Apostolicall churches , without any ministeriall apparrell , crossings or kneelings in the act of receiving the communion : And so following their owne hearts , became Novelistes vnto the Apostles , in these vncerteine and new found ceremonies . Neither for the poynt in question is it materiall , whether they were children , next and immediatly succeeding the Apostles , yea or no : For so soone as they declined from that integritie , & simple maner of Gods worship , and from that certeyntie , wherein the Apostle left the Churches , even so soone was their vncerteyne and newly start vp forme of Gods worship corrupt and impure : For when the Lord hath once spoken wordes , and doeth add no more , thereby we are taught , by his example , to lay our handes vpon our mouthes , to bee content with his word , and to add nothing of our owne . Yea and we bee warned to beware , least our heartes deceyve vs , and least we turne aside by devisinge foolish inventions , according to our owne fantasies . Wherefore your Lordships argument , of such ancientie , and of such integritie of these ceremonies , as declineth from that ancient , and in al poyntes and qualities certeyne and vpright forme of Gods worshippe practised without Copes , Surplices , Crosses , and kneelings in the acte of receyving the communion , by the Apostle in all the Churches planted by his Ministerie , argueth rather corruption and noveltie , then eyther any ancientie or integritie . And therefore we pray your Lordships , that hereafter you would be advised by vs , not to license your Scribes and prolocutors , to cast an imputation of Noveltie vpon the Ministers of Christ : or to vpbrayde them with that odious and reprochfull name of Novelistes : least for their safegard , and iust defence in this behalfe , they be constreyned to pray for remedy , protection , & ayde from our Sovereigne Lord King Iames : That by a writ of errour , out of the Recordes of the High Court of Parliament , to be graunted vnto them , they may procure the reversing , and adnihilating of your worthie orators , their vniust and Novelous accusatiō : For vnlesse it should seeme a small matter , in your Lordships sight , to vpbrayd our Sovereigne Lord the King , his Nobles and Commons of both Realmes , with a blemish of being Novelistes , and to be complotters of Novelties , for that his Highnes , and they , by al good counselles , endevour , that the English , and Scottish nations , should bee vnited into one people , and be restored to their first and ancient name of Brittans : And that the two Realmes , England and Scotland , as in most Ancient time should be called by the name of Great Brittany , vnles ( we say ) it should seeme a small matter , in your eyes , to traduce the King , his Nobles and Commons , in this case , of being Novelistes , wee pray your Lordships to beare with vs ; if we tell you playne , that for our partes we can not throughly discerne , with what honestie your Scribes be indowed , when as in their pamphlettes , they blaze the Ministers of Christ to be Novelistes . Which Ministers notwithstanding hate nothing more then Noveltie , and crave nothing so much as that the most certeyne and most single forme of Gods worship , left to the Churches , by the Apostle , without your many , and vncerteyne rites and ceremonies , might be restored , to her primative , and Apostolicall ancientie , and integritie . God save King IAMES . Faults eschaped in the Print . Pag. 6. lin . 6. is for it . Pag 6. li. 10. followe , for followe . Pag. 17. li. à fine 8. oovet , for covet . Pag. 18. li. à fine 7. prohibition , for prohibition . Pag 24. li. 4. outward , for outward . Pag. 26. ad marg . li. 2. Numb . 21. 8. 9. Pag. 27. marg Kin 10. 10 , for 16 10. Pag. 42. li. 12. comn : and , for command . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A69195-e250 The like demande wee make concerning the command of the Church . The like demande wee make of the abilitie of the Church . 1. Ki. 20. 41. 1. Sam. 9. 1● Obiection . 1. Sā . 28. 14 Isa . 20. 1. Zech. 13. 4. Math. 3. 4. Answers . 1 Chro. 23. 6 1 Chro. 25. 1. 1 Chro. 26. 20. 1 Chro. 9. ●2 . 2 Chro. 19. 25. Exo. 28. 12 29. 30. 35. 41. 43. Eze. 42 , 13. 14. Eze. 44. 15. 17. 18. 19. Ezek. 42. Eze. 44. 15. 17. 18. 19. 1 Chro. 15. Num. 4. 15. a 1. Chr. 15 17. 19. b 1. Chro. 16 37. c 1. Chro. 45. 16. d 1. Chro. 16. 41. e 1. Chr. 6. 32. f 2. Chro 5. 12. Obiection . Answere . Bishops . Gentl. Bishops . Gentl. ●ishops . Gentl. Deut. 7. 25. Deut , 7. 26. Deut. 13. 17 Isa . 44. 9. Esa . 30. 22. 1 Cor. 10. 7 ● Iohn . 5. 2● Act. 11. Deu. 12. 30 31 Deu. 14. ● . 2 1. Cor. 6. 14 15. 16 Rev. 17 1. 2 Revel . 20. 4 Deut. 12. 30. 31. 2 Ki. 1● . 3. 4 Bishops . Gentl. 2. K● . 18. 4. Bb. Gentl. 2. Ki. 10. 10 2. Ki. 29. 5● 15. 16. 17 2. Ki. 17. 15 8. 11. 12. 40. Bb. Gentl. Bishops . Gentl. Bishops . Gentl. Bb. Gentl. Treat : of ceremon : sect . 3. Exod. 20 Isa . 44. 9. Ierem. 10 ▪ 14. 15. 17 Isa . 29 , 13 Math. 15. 8. Constitut . & ca. published 1604. com . 4. 10. Bishops . Gentl. Bishops . Gentl. Bishops . Gentl. Bb. Gentl. ● Cor. 14. 40. Bb. Gentl. 1 Cor. 14. 4● Bb. Gentl. ●om . 13. Bishops . Gentl. Const . 27 Mar. 14. 18. Isa . 21. 1. 2 Bb. Gentl. Levi. 18. 3. 19. 27. 2. Cor. 6. 14 15. 16. Bb. Gentl. Lord Bishop of Lincolae ● 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 25. H. 8. c. 19. Iudg. 7. 3. Reve. 11. 3. 4. 5. Rom. 14. 15. Rom. 14. 20. 21. Rom. 14. 13. 1. Cor. 8. 13. Bishops . Gentl. 1. Chron. 13. 2. Title , admonition to simple men . 1. Cor. 10 28. Bishops . Gentl. Rō . 14. 14 Bb. Gentl. Rom. 14. 1. Cor. 8. Cor. 10. 28. Bb. Gentl. Rō . 14. 23 Bb. Genel . In a libell cast out in London against one of the Sherifes and certaine Ministers . Bishop Horne . Deut. 31. 28 Ierem. 16 Isai . 8. 16 Iere. 2. 8. 36 Isa . 16. 20 Deu. 32. 17 Deut. 27. 5. Deut. 9. 12. Deut. 5. 22. Deu. 11. 16 
A13202	----	A defence of the Holy Scriptures, worship, and ministerie, used in the Christian Churches separated from Antichrist Against the challenges, cavils and contradiction of M. Smyth: in his book intituled The differences of the Churches of the Separation. Hereunto are annexed a few observations upon some of M. Smythes censures; in his answer made to M. Bernard. By Henry Ainsworth, teacher of the English exiled Church in Amsterdam. Ainsworth, Henry, 1571-1622? 1609 Approx. 363 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 70 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-12 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A13202 STC 235 ESTC S117973 99853182 99853182 18551 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A13202) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 18551) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1475-1640 ; 906:09) A defence of the Holy Scriptures, worship, and ministerie, used in the Christian Churches separated from Antichrist Against the challenges, cavils and contradiction of M. Smyth: in his book intituled The differences of the Churches of the Separation. Hereunto are annexed a few observations upon some of M. Smythes censures; in his answer made to M. Bernard. By Henry Ainsworth, teacher of the English exiled Church in Amsterdam. Ainsworth, Henry, 1571-1622? [4], 121 [i.e. 132] p. By Giles Thorp, Imprinted at Amsterdam : in the yere 1609. Page 132 missing in number only. Answers John Smyth's "The differences of the churches of the seperation" (STC 22876). 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Brownists -- Early works to 1800. 2005-02 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2005-03 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-04 Emma (Leeson) Huber Sampled and proofread 2005-04 Emma (Leeson) Huber Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A DEFENCE OF THE HOLY SCRIPTURES , WORSHIP , AND MINISTERIE , used in the Christian Churches separated from Antichrist : Against the challenges , cavils and contradiction of M. Smyth : in his book intituled The differences of the Churches of the Separation . Hereunto are annexed a few observations upon some of M. Smythes Censures ; in his answer made to M. Bernard . By Henry Ainsworth , teacher of the English exiled Church in AMSTERDAM . Imprinted at Amsterdam by Giles Thorp in the yere 1609. The chief things handled in this treatise . OF worship . pag. 5. &c. The Iewes worship scanned . pag. 11. &c. Prophesying or preaching ; whither it be worship . pag. 16. &c. Singing of Psalmes , pag. 21. Of scripture , or books in general . pag. 22. Of the original scriptures . pag. 24. &c. The hand-writing of ordinances , Coloss. 2. pag. 28. Whither Christ , Luk. 4. ended the law of reading . p. 31. Whither reading be the ministratiō of the letter . 2 Cor. 3. pag. 32. Of the law and gospel given in books & tongues . p. 37. Of the cōmandements to read the scriptures . p. 39. 41. &c. Of translations of holy scripture . pag. 45. &c. Of the 72. Interpreters in Israel ; and whether they synned in translating the Bible . pag. 51. &c. Argumēts against the use of translations in Gods worship , answered . pag. 57. &c. Arguments for the use of translations ▪ &c. mainteyned . p. 69. &c. Of the Hellenists , or Iewes that ●pake Greek . p. 73. &c. Of the Ministerie and Eldership . pag. 88. &c. Reasons against 3. sorts of Elders , refuted . pag. 89. &c. Reasons for 3. sorts of Elders , defended . pag. 97. &c. Of the Treasurie pag. 114. Observations upon M. Smythes censures , against Church ▪ government by the Eldership , pag. 118. &c. IT is true of an haeretik which Solomon sayth in parable , * a foolish woman is troublesome : experience hereof wee have in this adversary whom I deal against . For he not content to manifest with mouth , nor to write with pen , nor to print in publik once , his owne follyand shame , with calling vpon us to † justific our proceedings or repent of them ; dooth in an other book the second time “ require an answer , and fretting in himself that we passed over his vanitie with silence , he biddeth us battel with the third alarme in his book The character of the beast , lately published . Wherin , ( to shew how near he is allyed to those which say , * who is like unto the Beast , who is able to warr with him ? ) he † requireth , nay chargeth , yea challengeth us ( as he saith ) to the defense of our errors vawnting moreover against us , that we are guiltie in our consciences of our disabilitie to defend them , and therefore subtilly draw back and pretend excuses ; triumphing also over vs , as they that hitherto in craftines have withdrawn from the combat , in the matter of the translation , worship and presbyterie . Thus hath he lifted up * his horne on high , and spoken with a stif neck ; as if even the mightie were “ afraid of his majestie , and for fear fainted in themselves . In regard of which insolencie ; all men I think may see , it is now time , if ever , to take up sheild and sword against him , and hew his hornes that so have pushed the flock of Christ , wherof not long since he professed himself to be a member with us : though now having left the truth to folow leasing , he maketh open warr with the saincts . And wheras among other * swelling words of vanitie , he sayth , † Loe we protest against them to have a false worship of reading books : we protest against them to have a false government of a triformed Presbyterie ; we protest against them to have a false Ministerie of Doctors or Teachers , &c. I have taken in hand to set forth our iust defense , in these particulars , and to shew the frawd and malignitie of this boaster : leaving the other point about the constitution of our Church in baptising of infants , to others that have already begun to convince his heresie therin . And this which I have undertaken is rather for others ( who may be troubled with his writings ) then for his own sake , who yeeldeth smal hope of good , seing he procedeth so fast in evil ; and out of a “ proud hart hath stirred up strife . Wherin also such hath been his ficklenes , as † no constancis is in his mouth . For ( not to speak of * three sundry books wherin he hath shewed himselfe of 3. several religions , ) in this one book which J deal against , he sayeth and unsayeth and contrarieth his own grounds for to shift and hide his blasphemies , that litle needed him so earnestly to have caled for an other mans sword to peirce the bowels of his errour ; when his own hand fighteth against himself , and the spear which he tosseth , turneth into his hart . I had much rather have folowed more cōfortable meditations , in the peaceable practise of the truth ; thē thus to cōtēd with those that seek strife , & that fight against the faith which themsevles once professed ; having found such by experience , to be above others , most malignant enemies : but truth oppugned , may not be for saken ; and † wolves that would ravin , must be beaten from the fold , least the sheep be devoured or scattered . Now therefore I being to encounter this false Prophet , doe humble my self under the good hand of God whose power is made perfect in mans infirmitie ; whose mercie susteyneth in violence of the enemie ; whose truth is a sheild and buckler . He blesse these my labours unto his people ; that * the righteous may see and reioyce , and all iniquitie may stop her mouth . Amen . A DEFENCE OF THE HOLY SCRIPTVRES AND WORSHIP OF God , used in the Christian Churches of the Separation : against the calumnies of M. Smyth . THe book intituled The differences of the Churches of the separation , which we are chalenged by the Author to answer : carieth in the very name therof , a delusion of the Reader . For if he look for plaine differences , what they affirme and we deny ; he shal not find them expressed : if he take the differences to be implied , as that whatsoever Mast. Smyth affirmeth we deney , and what he deneyeth we affirme ; then is the Reader much abused , & we injured ; who hold in that book , truth & error to be unequally mixed . Seing then neyther expresly nor implicitly the Reader can see the Differences : what are they but delusions ? The many questions which he asketh in the end , conteyning the summe of al his book , manifest the Authors frawd : for if he know & dare say wherin we differ , what need he desire our direct answer ? It became him to refute , & not for to fish with hooks of demands , wherin we would differ from him . Ther was one onely difference between M. Smyth and us , when first he began to quarrel ; though synce he have increast them , and increaseth dayly , with deadly feud and open opposition , as al men may see . That difference was this . He with his followers breaking off cōmunion with us , charged us with synn for using our English Bibles in the worship of God ; & he thought that the teachers should bring the originals the Hebrew and Greek , and out of them translate by voice . His principal reason against our translated scripture was this . No Apocrypha writing , but onely the Canonical scriptures , are to be used in the Church , in time of Gods worship . Every written translation is an Apocrypha writing , & is not canonical scripture . Therfore every written translation is unlawful in the Church in time of Gods worship . Why he counted every translation apocrypha , and what he meant therby , appeareth by these words of his ‡ a written translation ( sayth he ) or interpretation is as wel & as much an human writing , as an homilie or prayer , written & read . The like impietie he hath also printed in his book , saying A translation being the work of a mens wit & learning , is as much and as truly an humane writing , as the Apocrypha ( so commonly called ) writings are , and seeing it hath not the allowance of holy men inspired , but is of an hidden authoritie , it may be iustly called Apocrypha &c. And therfore not to be brought into the worship of God to be read . That this point of the translation was the onely difference , as it is known to al that then heard his publik protestatiō ; so his words in writing shew it . ‡ Translations written ( sayth he ) are not refreyned in the case of scandal , for we desired that they might be refreined for our sakes , that we might keep communion , & it would not be yeilded . So if we would have layd aside our translated Bibles , communion ( they say ) should have been kept with us . Now for the true differences on our part , at that time and stil , they are thus . We agree with M. Smyth herein , that Onely canonical scripture is to be used in Gods worship ; & that no apocryphal writing is to be used in Gods worship . But we disagree & deney , that every written translation is an Apocryphal writing ; affirming that the Scriptures in English and other languages , rightly translated out of the Originals , are Canonical ; & so to be read in the Church in the worship of God. After much time spent about this controversie , he manifested other differences , touching the ministerie and treasurie ; and soon after published this book of Differences : wherin , having his latter thoughts ( as he thought ) better then his former , he † retracted a former book of Principles &c , and al other his writings , so farr forth as they were overthwarted by this his last book . He also acknowledged the * ancient brethren of the separation ( as he calleth us ) are to be honoured , that they have reduced the Church , to the true primitive and Apostolik constitution , which consisteth in these three things , 1 The true matter , which are Saincts onely , 2 The true forme , which is the uniting of them togither in the covenant . 3 The true propertie , which is a communion in al the holy things , and the power of our Lord Iesus Christ , for the mainteyning of that communion . To this blessed work of the Lord wherin those ancient brethren have laboured , I know not ( sayth he ) what may more be added , I think rather there can nothing be added . And was he now setled in his course ? nothing lesse , for the strange womans * pathes are moveable , they cannot be known . Soon after this God stroke him with blindnes , that he could no longer find the door of the Church , out of which he was gone by schisme , and which he had assaulted with error . Our entring in by the covenant of God with † Abraham to the faithful and their seed , hath been as a brazen wal , whereagainst he hath runn himself , to his utter ruine , if God in mercie raise him not up . And now as a man benummed in mynd , he cryeth out against us , contrary to his former fayth and confession ; * Loe , we protest against them ( sayth he ) to bee a false Church , falsly constituted in the baptising of infants , and their own unbaptised estate . And agayn , We protest against them , that seeing their constitution is false ; therfore there is no one ordinance of the Lord true among them . Thus † wine sheweth it self in M. Smyth to be a mocker , & strong drink to be raging : whiles he having drunk † the wine of violence proclaymeth open warr , against Gods everlasting covenant . The defense of which grace , being already in the hands of two worthy soldiers of Christ , Mr Clifton whom he hath printed against , and Mr Robinson , whom he next threatneth : I leave vnto them ; not doubting but God their strength , will * teach their hands , to fight , and their fingers to battel , in so good a cause against this enemie . But because he still vrgeth his former quarrels of the scriptures and Ministerie : I purpose with Gods grace to set against him in these ; desiring the Lord my Rock , to † gird me with strength , and to make my way entyre . Touching the first , namely , the vse of translated scriptures in the worship of God : M. Smyth thus summeth vp the difference , in the forefront of his book . 1. We hold ( saith he ) that the worship of the new testament properly so called , is spirituall , proceeding originally from the hart : and that ▪ reading out of a book ( though a lawful ecclesiasticall action , ) is no part of spiritual worship : but rather the invention of the man of syn , it being substituted for a part of spiritual worship . 2. We hold that seing prophesying is a part of spirituall worship : therefore in time of prophesying it is vnlawfull to have the book as a help before the eye . 3. We hold that seing singing a Psalm is a part of spirituall worship ; therefore it is vnlawful , to have the book before the ey , in time of singing a Psalm . Here first let the reader observe , that the mayn and true difference which was between M. Smyth and us , about the translation , is not mentioned : but is brought in after , as by the way , in hādling these matters ; and other points never controverted between vs , are made heads of the differences . In which doing , M. Smyth hath graced the very portch of his building , with imposture and frawd . 2. In saying , of himself and his brethrē , We hold &c. he giveth the reader to vnderstand , ( vnlesse he meant to delude him , ) that they whom he dealeth against , hold the cōtrary : wheras he neither dooth , nor is able to produce any proof hereof against us ; neyther ( I dare say ) can he tel what we hold , of these points . Thus secondeth he his fraud with injurie ; and maketh these two , as Iachin & Boaz , the pillars for to bewtifie the temple of his book . Now because his whol battel against the translated Scriptures , is cheefly out of this bulwark of spiritual worship , wherin he hath intrenched himself , and flyeth therto at al assayes , when other shifts fayle him : I wil begin with it , as himself also dooth , and come to Translations anon . OF WORSHIP . Wheras the word Worship is diversly used , somtime more largely , somtime more straightly ; by reason wherof it hath not at al tymes a like proper signification : M. Smyth spying this , ( as by his limitation of properly so called may appear ; ) takes advantage to himself for to bolster out his former blasphemies , & to deal against us for Idolaters , & the holy Bible for an idol ; under the aequivocatiō or double meaning of this word worship ; restreyning it wher he should not , & inlarging it where he ought not . And though he treateth of this thing at large , handling the fountaine , the helps , the essence or nature , with the parts and kinds of worship : yet the divers use of the word which was needful first to be shewed , ( if he meant not to deceiv , ) he hath quite omitted ; that , therfore I wil first manifest . Worship , in our English tongue , and as it is used to expresse the original scriptures , is diversly taken . Somtime largely , as when it expresseth the Greek word latreuo ; as Philip. 3 , 3. we ar the circumcision which † worship God in the spirit : & Act. 24 , 14. so ” worship I the God of my fathers . And thus both the English & Greek answereth to the Hebrew ghnabad , which properly signifieth to serve , Exod. 3 , 12. Deut. 10 , 12 , 2 Sam. 15 , 8. Also when it expresseth the Greek word sebomai ; as Act. 18 , 13. to * worship God contrary to the law ; & Act. 18 , 7 , Iustus a ‡ worshipper of God. And so both it & the Greek answer to the Hebrew jaré ; which properly signifieth to fear or reverence , as Mat. 15 , 9. in vaine they ” worship me ; for that which in Hebrue is , their fear towards me Isa 29 , 13. So * Iob. and Ionas , as the Hebrew sayth , feared , as the Greek translateth , Worshipped God. Also when it interpreteth the Greek word threskeuo , as Col. 2 , 18. the Worshipping of Angels ; and vers . 23. in wil-worship ; or voluntary religion . Thus worship is largely used , for the feare and service of God , or any religious action . More strictly and properly , worship is vsed to English the Greeke word proskuneo ; as Mat. 2. 2. We are come to † worship him ; and Rev. 11. 16. they ” worshipped God ; Rev. 13. 4. they ” worshipped the Dragon , &c. And so both it and the Greek word , doe expresse the Hebrue hishtachavah , which properly signifieth to bow downe or prostrate ones self . Exod. 20. 5. Thus the worship of God generally , comprehendeth the performing of all duties required in the first * table of the Law : specially and properly , to worship is to bow downe & supplicate vnto God. The meaning of the word being thus distinguished ; let vs now see how M. Smyth dooth deal in the point . He , where he † professeth to handle the nature or essence of spiritual worship , and the essentiall causes and kindes thereof , sheweth these things in two particulars ; first in the essentiall causes ; 2. in the proper kindes or parts of the worship of the N. testament . The essential causes are matter and forme . The matter of Gods worship ( sayth he ) is the holy scriptures , which conteyneth the word of God or the Gospell , the subiect whereof is Christ Iesus : The forme or sowl that quickeneth it , is the spirit Col. 3. 16. with Ephe. 5. 18. 19. 20. Then he illustrateth this , by the ceremoniall worship of the old testament . And the matter of that he maketh to be beasts , incense , oil , fat , corn , wine , and the like creatures whereof the sacrifices &c. wer made , with all the actions thereto perteyning . The forme he sayth appeared in 4. things ; 1. honey , and 2. leven which must be absent for the most part ; and 3. fyre and 4. salt which must allwayes be present . Then for the kindes of spirituall worship , he sayth they are praying , prophefying , and singing Psalmes . Psal. 50. 14 — 17. 1 Cor. 11. 4. and 14. 15. 17. 26. Iam. 5. 13. Rev. 19. 10. I wil not here stand to scan the good order which M. Smyth hath used in handling the nature and essence of worship , whiles omitting the efficient causes , obiects and ends , which properly perteyne to the discourse of actions : he insisteth vpon matter and forme which he calleth essentiall causes : so taking that which is more vnproper , & difficult . But seing he hath chosen this way , I will follow him therein . And first I observe , how he intending to shut out the reading of the scriptures from spirituall worship ; yet maketh the scriptures to be the matter of worship : now how the matter of a thing , should be shut out and vnlawfull to be there , it requireth some skill to know . Secondly , the scriptures being ( as he sayth ) the matter , and the spirit the form of this action of worship ; ( though properly the spirit is the † efficient cause ; ) it would be knowne why M. Smyth in an other place sayth that * actions of administring the Church or kingdom of Christ , are not actions of spirituall worship properly so called , making those actions to be admonition , examination , excommunication , pacification , absolution &c. are not these to have the matter of the scriptures , and form of the spirit , as well as prophesie which th' Apostle sayth , is a speaking † to edifying to exhortation and to comfort ? Are we not aswell bound to the scriptures in admonishing , as in exhorting and must not the same spirit give life vnto both ? Let Paul himself be our example : he teacheth that * the whole scripture is profitable , as for doctrine so for † rebuke or conviction , and for correction ; and he in practise , rebuking and opposing against Elymas , saying , * O ful of all subtilty and of all mischief , child of the Divil &c. did this by the holy spirit , wherof he is noted then to be † ful . In preaching to the men of Antiochia , he admonished them * by the word of the prophet Abakuk : in preaching to the Iewes in Rome , he rebuked them ” by the word of the prophet Esaias ; And Peter in his Sermon at Ierusalem pacified their pricked consciences , by the promise of God , to them and to their children ; Actes 2. 37. 39. So the word and spirit were matter and form of their rebukes , admonitions , pacifications , &c. even as of their other doctrines & exhortations , and therfore by Mr Sm. owne grounds , were spirituall worship ; and so his first plot where he made * actions of opposition , difference , plea & strife , not to be actions of spiritual worship ; is a wagmire wherinto this his conceipt of prophesie or preaching to be spirituall worship , is sunk , and by it overthrown . And sure the Prophets and Apostles and Christ himself never observed this new coyned difference , for † they in their prophesying or preaching of the word , did intermixe rebukes with comforts , admonitions with exhortations , and opposed against syn and synners vsually in their sermons , as the whole historie of the Bible sheweth . Now by Mr Smyths divinitie they worshipped not God , when they spake by way of opposition , difference , plea or strife , in their doctrine ; but when they spake to edifying exhortation or comfort ; this was the worship of God properly so called . If this distinction be not true , then M. Sm. is a deceiver , properly so called ; who to make things serve his hereticall humour and hide his blasphemies against our reading of the holy scriptures in the Church , hath digged thus deep to find a pit whereinto to fell the righteous ; though himself by Gods iudgement be fallen into the same . And here , by the way I will briefly note M. Smyths methode in contriving of his book for the advantage of his cause . The three offices of Christ , in prophesie preisthood and Kingdome ; he reduceth vnto two , 1. kingdome and 2. preisthood ; ‡ comprehending prophesie vnder the preisthood as a branch of it . Deut. 33. 10. Rev. 1. 6. with 1 Cor. 14. 31. Act. 2. 17. 18. Whereas by the same ground of Deut. 33. 10. he mought have made the kingdome also a branch of the preisthood ; for the Preists were to teach Iaakob Gods judgements and Israel his law , as well in cases of * controversie plea and strife , ( which M. Smyth maketh actions of administring the Kingdome ; ) as in other doctrines of exhortation and comfort . But I find in the scripture that Moses ( not Aaron the Preist , ) is made a figure of Christ † as a Prophet ; and Prophets there were many in Israel of other tribes then Levi : seing then Moses & the Prophets caried types of Christs prophesie ; Aaron and the Priests , of his priesthood ; David and the kings , of his kingdom ; I would not now confound the priesthood & prophesie in Christ , any otherwise then the priesthood and kingdome ; but keep a like distinction in them al ; & as in Christ the head , so in the Church his body . Againe as in heavenly order the 1. manifestatiō of mans syn and miserie by the law , of his justice & happines by the gospel ; also the 2. work of mans redemption by sacrifice ; & 3 the conservation of this grace wrought for the Church , against al enemies ; are three distinct things , one following another : so Christ in his administratiō observed this order & distinction ; first , † teaching the Church as a Prophet , above three yeares ; then * offring up himself as a Preist & sacrifice to his father for his Church ; and lastly rising & “ ascending into heaven to the right hand of God , there to † reign as king until al his enemies be made his footstool . Now M. Smyth maketh prophesie one with the Priesthood , because he would have these two to be Gods worship : & the kingdome he speaketh of first ; and excludeth al the actions of it from Gods worship . Whereas the Gospell is called * the word of the kingdome ; and Christ when he preached ( or prophesied ) is sayd to † preach the kingdome of God ; and the doctrines which he taught , were the * secrets of the kingdom ; and the Apostles in their sermons † preached , expounded and testified the kingdom of God. Wherefore they be deep waters which M. Sm. hath found ; that the actions of administring the kingdome should not be worship : and yet the preaching of the gospell , or prophesying , shal be worship , and that in the highest degree , properly so called . If he followed not fansy in these things , rather then sound judgement ; let the prudent iudge . Like vanity he sheweth in this , that having made the scriptures to be the matter of our worship now , he makethnot them to be the matter also of Gods worship in Israel , but beasts , incense , oil , fat , &c. and the form of our worship to be the spirit , but the forme of theirs to appear in honey , leven , fyre & salt . What , had not they the † written word of God , for a ground of their religious actions , as well as we have the “ written word ? had not they * the good spirit of God to instruct them , as we have ? had they not † praying prophesying , singing &c. by the spirit , as we ? How is it then , that this man maketh the matter and form of Gods worship in Israel , to consist in such carnall things ? There is a depth of abomination herein , which is the ground of his anabaptising heresie . For wheras th'Apostle magnifieth the * Iewish Church , above the Gentiles in many respects : this proud Gentile disgraceth them extremely , saying † that their Ministerie worship & government was carnal ; that faith and repentance was not required to the matter , that is , the people of that Church , but onely a carnall holynes ; with many such like vituperies , which out of his carnal hart he uttereth against them . But for their worship which we have in hand , let him shew if he can , what one thing we have which they had not before vs. He maketh the parts of our worship to be three , praying , prophesying , singing ; all these they had , and vttered them by the spirit , as the scriptures every where manifest : and though they had many carnal rites with these , as sacrifices , incense , &c. yet was not their worship carnal : for we have also some carnall rites , as washing with water in baptisme , the eating of bread & wine in the Lords supper ; have we therefore a carnall baptisme , a carnall supper ? if not , neyther had they a carnal worship , though carnall rites were adjoyned unto their worship . But as God whom they worshipped was a spirit , so worshipped they him in spirit , and with faith , exspecting that promise which God made vnto them of salvation by Christ ; as Paul testifyed of the whol body of that Church ; that * the twelve tribes instantly serving ( or worshiping ) day and night , hoped to come vnto it : shewing further , that the gentiles are of the same , or † one joynt body with them ; fellow-heyres , and partakers of the promise in Christ. M. S. having shewed ( as he thought ) the matter and form of the Iewes worship , inferreth vpon it thus . * Hence it followeth ( sayth he ) that the worship that beginneth in the book or translation commeth not originally from the spirit , but from the letter or ceremony , and so is not properly of the new Testament , but of the old , 2 Cor. 3. 6. If this followeth , upon the former description of their worship and ours , I think it comes a great way behind , that few wil be able to see it . For , did the matter of their worship , the beasts , incense , oil , &c. proceed out of the book ? or did the form seen in fyre and salt , come from the book , any otherweise then our praying , preaching , and ministring of the sacraments dooth or must doe . Did they look on a book when they kindled fyre on the altar , or cast salt on the sacrifice ? if not , how followeth this halting inference ? That the worship performed in reading the scriptures proceedeth originally from the spirit , even from God , whose spirit is in his word , and who hath commanded it to be read : and that such reading is not the ministerie of the letter spoken of , 2 Cor. 3 , 6. shall through Gods grace , anon be proved ; in handling the second point , of the scriptures . Here next followeth to be considered Mr Smythes allegories & opening the worship of the new testament , by the type in the old . Their * Church , Ministery , worship , government , &c. as he sayth , were all literall and ceremonial . Their litterall or typicall worship , was performed in two places , 1. the holy place , 2. or the court . The worship in the holy place , typed ( sayth he ) most properly the worship of the new Testament , which was typed by the holy place , Rev. 11. 1. 2. 2 Cor. 6. 16. Heb. 8. 2. and 9. 11. 1 Pet. 2. 5. The worship of the tabernacle or holy place , consisted of 3. parts , 1. that which perteyned to the brazen altar , 2. that which was performed at the golden altar , 3. that which concerned the table of shew bread , Exod. 37. & 38. with Exod. 29 , 38. & 30. 7. 8. 34 — 38. Levit. 24. 1. — 9. At the brazen altar were offred sacrifices propitiatorie and eucharisticall , signifying , prayer , thanksgiving , prophesie . At the golden altar was perfume , signifying prayer , thanksgiving , preaching the gospel . Upon the table of shew bread was the candlestik , and 12. loves with incense . The candlestik signifyed the Church ; shining by doctrine , &c. The shew bread , signified the 12. tribes or Church , present before the Lord , fed with Christ &c. As the holy place with the altar and Preists , did properly signify ( saith he ) the Church , Worship , and Saints , Rev. 11. 1 , 1 Pet. 2. 5. under the new testament : so the court without the holy place whither all the people came , & the typical service performed there , did signifie the confused assemblies of antichristian persecutors , & their ceremonial worship , Rev. 11. 2. which the spirit in that place caleth gentiles or hethen in these respects . The parts of typical service performed in the court , were reading and musik , wherein the Levites were cheif agents ; though the preists also and any of the people might read and sing . The scriptures read and tunea musically , are prophesies , prayers , thanksgivings . In this discourse God would let the Reader see , how M. Smyth is given over to blindnes of hart , in judging spiritual things : by that blyndnes which is in him in discerning carnal things , & which are set before al mens eyes . For , to make the legal shadowes serve his fansie , he placeth the brazen altar in the holy place or tabernacle with the golden altar , table and candlestik : wheras the scripture sheweth it was set in the court-yard of the tabernacle † before the doore , and that a good distance off , having the Laver * between the tabernacle and it , in which the preists did wash when they went into the tabernacle . And to this place at the dore of the tabernacle , did “ the people assemble , & it was † holy . If M. Sm. saw not this in the scripture , yet reason mought have taught him not to make a chimney of the Lords tabernacle covered & hāged with imbroidered curtayns . The boards of the tabernacle were but * ten cubits high , ( the brazen altar being “ three cubits ; the † tent and coverings were spread over them on hie , and a vayl * hanged at the door . Vpon the altar was a fyre “ always kept burning , & here whole sheep and oxen were burned to ashes , many at once , sometime † a thowsand . Can any reasonable man now think , that this was within the tabernacle , which was so low & little a place ? would the Lord have the curtayns to be ” embrodered with cherubims , the boards to be covered with gold , that al mought be dight with smoke and swoot ; & continually in danger to be set on fyre ? yet M. Smyth wil needs have it there , because he thought it would fit his turne wel . With like discretion he placeth the candlestik upon the table , though Moses plainly telleth , that it ( being very great , of a * talent of gold , about 160 pound weight , ) was † set on the south side of the tabernacle , & the table with shew bread on the north . But his eye sight fayled not so much in the shadow , as his hart was blinded in the shadowed thing . For he maketh the 1 tabernacle , 2 altar , & 3 Preists , to signifie the 1 Church , 2 worship , & 3 saincts under the new testament : the 1. court of the tabernacle , he wil have to signifie the assemblies of Antichrist ; the 2 Israelites there assembling , to signifie the antichristian persecutors : 3 the typical service in the court , as reading the scriptures , & singing them with musik ; to signifie the ceremonial worship of antichristians . For none but antichristians ( as he thinketh ) do read the scriptures in their worship . Behold unto what great impietie he abuseth the word of God. The body of the Church of Israel , the † son and first born of the Lord , his * chosen and cheif treasure , “ precious unto him above al peoples of the earth , on whom he set his love , † riding upon the heavens for their help , & on the clowds in his glorie ; a people * blessed and saved by the Lord , the sheild of their help and sword of their glorie : this people he maketh to signifie the antichristian persecutors , hated of God , children of the Divil , for whose overthrow and confusion Christ “ rideth on the heavens in his glorie with a garment dipt in blood , and a sword for to slay them , and fil al the fowles of the aier with their flesh . The worship and service commanded by God unto his people , and his good word to instruct them , by which he caled them † from the service of Divils : this false prophet maketh to signifie the service of antichristian idolaters , which * worship Divils . Thd Lords “ holy courts , wherein they that dwelt were † blessed , for which the sowles of the Saincts * longed and fainted , counting one day there better then a thowsand otherwhere : is now made to signifie the Synagogue of Satan , and place where the Divil dwelleth . So then the Israel of God which according to his wil worshiped and served him “ with song and sacrifice ; the prophets , preists , Levites , yea Christ himself and his Apostles , which often went thither to worship God and teach the people ; these al were figures and significatiōs of antichristian persecutors ; excepting the preists onely whom M , Smyth of his courtesie , maketh figures of Christians , when they did their service in the holy place . By this interpretation , when Zacharie the priest was † in the temple burning incense , and the whole multitude of the people were without in prayer , wayting for his coming out to * blesse them : he & his service , signified Christians and their worship of God ; they with their prayers , signified antichristians and their worship of the Divil . Yea God himself is highly blasphemed by this wretched exposition : for seeing by types & figures he taught his people how for to serue him , & led thē by earthly signes to heavenly things signified ; how can it be sayd or thought without blasphemie , that the publik worship of the whol congregation appointed by God himself , did signifie hellish things , and antichristian idolatries ? But what may we think induced M. Sm. to this impietie ? Even Satan deceived him by one place of scripture which he † citeth in his book ; viz. Rev. 11. 2. where Iohn was willed in a vision , to castout the court which is without the temple , and not measure it , for it is given to the gentiles . Hence doth M. Smyth gather that the Israelites which were wont to worship in the courts of the Lord , did signifie the gentiles , that is the Antichristians , and consequently the court must betokē Antichrists Church , and the worship Antichrists worship . Thus one dark scripture is alleged to overthrow the cleare doctrine that shineth throughout al the prophets . Yet even this place it self mought have taught him better . For first the commandment to * measure the temple , altar , and worshipers , signified the restoring or repayring of Gods Church and people , after some destruction & desolation ; as the like visions shewed “ to Ezekiel and Zacharie , after the destruction of Solomons temple , do manifest . Secondly , wheras the court and the holy citie was not mesured here by Iohn ; as before by † the other prophets , they were , and as afterwards * Iohn did see : it may teach us , that as yet there was not a ful restauration of Gods Church and worship , from the defection of Antichrist . Thirdly in that the court is here sayd to “ be given to the gentiles , & the holy citie should be troden under foot of them , & a time limited how long , two & fourtie moneths : this argueth that the court was not made , nor the citie builded for them : but by Gods permission , for the chastisement of men , was given unto them for a season , during which tyme his two witnesses should prophesie against them . And thus it is said of the figure the first temple and city , † I have given the dearly beloved of my sowl , into the hands of her enemies . So al Iudah * was given into the hand of the king of Babel : and “ Esaias complayneth how the adversaries had troden down Gods sanctuarie , as here † they tread down the holie citie . And if the court of the temple must needs signifie Antichrists court , because it was given to the gentiles ; then must the holy citie , ( by which name * Ierusalem is often alled ) : signify also Antichrists citie & Church , because it was troden downe of the same gentiles ; but all the Prophets † shew that it signified the Church of God. Fynally , if M. S. would have interpreted scripture by scripture & not by his own fansie , he mought have seen a figure of those gentiles , Rev. 11. set forth by the Psalmist , “ O God the Gentiles are come into thy inheritance , thine holy temple have they defiled , and made Ierusalem heapes . Where by Gentiles are not meant the Israelites , but Babylonians or other hethen persecutors : and the very name Gentiles Rev. 11. whereby Antichristians are called , should have taught him to look for their type , not in the Church of Israel , but in their adversaries ; as Antichrists Church is called * Babylon , and Christs † Ierusalem . And as the gentiles of old , exposed “ the dead bodies of Gods saints , unburied , to the beasts and birds : so these gentils † here , having killed the Lords witnesses , would not suffer their carkesses to be put in graves . But M. Smythes base account of Israel to be but a carnal people , brought him to this dotage ; to make them in their assemblies and worship , to be figures of Antichristian persecutors . This being thus cleared ; the reader may tast , how unsavoury and bitter M. Smythes wormwood is , who to abolish the reading of Gods word out of his worship and service ; would make the reading of it in the Church of Israel , to signify it should be read in the Churches of Antichrist , but not of Christ. Having handled thus the essential causes , of Gods worship , with the types in Israel ; next folow the parts and kinds of the same , which M. Sm. sayth are 1. praying , 2. prophesying , 3 & singing psalmes . Psal. 50. 14. 17. 1 Cor. 11. 4. and 14. 15 — 17. 26. Iam. 5. 13. Rev. 19. 10. Worship , properly so called , whereof he would seem to intreat : is not so large as here he makes it : and if he mean worship in generall , it is more large then these three particulars do expresse . Worship strictly taken , for that which in Greek is proskunesis , betokeneth a prostrating or supplicating vnto God : & is in scripture applied and annexed vnto prayer , Exod. 34. 8. 9. vnto thanksgiving , Gen. 24. 26. 27. vnto offrings & sacrifices , ( after whichit was performed , ) 1 Chron. 16. 29. with 2 Chro. 29. 29. unto the bringing of first fruits , with acknowledgement of Gods goodnes , Deut. 26. 2 — 10. vnto confession praysing and blessing of God ; Nehem. 9. 3. 2 Chron. 7. 3. 1 Chron. 29. 20. Iob. 1. 20. 21. and sometimes it is set downe absolutely , where these or some of them , are to be understood . Act. 8. 27. Exod. 4. 31. Wherefore it is truely and properly applyed vnto all manner supplication or calling on the name of God. But that it may fitly be applyed unto prophesying , no scriptures that I know of , manifest ; neyther will the nature of the action bear it . Prophesying ( to speak properly of it , as is meet in such controversies , ) is one of the extraordinary gifts of God vnto his Church by his spirit ; as we have example in Israell , Num. 11. 25. 26. as was foretold by Ioel to be at Christs coming , Ioel 2. 28. 29. and as was fulfilled vpon the Apostles & members of the primitive Churches . Act. 2. 4. — 17. and 19. 2. — 6. 1 Cor. 14. Now why M. Sm. should choose out this one gift , and neglect all others ( except singing a Psalme : ) and make it above the rest , properly worship , I cannot tel . If he vse it for that which generally is called the preaching of the word , it is not fit in this place , where propriety is by himself pleaded for , and should in deed be vsed . He mought have seen in the same 14. to the Corinthes , fowr wayes of teaching noted by the Apostle , vers . 6. eyther by revelation , or by knowledge , or by prophesie , or by doctrine ; and examples of these fowr , in the Christians practise : For Paul spake of revelations to the Church of Corinth , 2 Cor. 12. 1. 2. &c. and Iohn by revelation , to the Churches in Asia . Rev. 1. 1. 2. 4. 9. 10. &c. and by knowledge the same man spake to the Church in generall , when he reported that which they had seen , heard , handled and knowne to be true ; Ioh. 19. 35. 1 Ioh. 1. 1. 3. and Peter dooth the like ; 2. Pet. 1. 17. 18. by prophesie , when by secret instinct of the spirit , they wer moved to speak somthing which tended to the edifying exhortation & comfort of the Church , 1. Cor. 14. 3. 29. 30. 31. Act. 19. 6. by doctrine , when they scanned the scriptures and gathered doctrines , and exhortations from them , Heb. 4. 3. 4. 7. & 7. 1. 2. &c. Rom. 4. 3. 4. &c. Luk. 4. 17. 18 — 21. And this latter is the surest way and safest now for the Church , when by the scriptures they are taught the wil of God : the other extraordinarie and miraculous gifts being ceased . Therfore the Evangelists and ordinarie ministers of churches are not exhorted to prophesie , but to feed , preach , read , teach , exhort comfort &c. Act. 20 , 28. &c. 1 Pet. 5 , 1 , 2 , &c. 1 Tim. 4 , 13 — 16. 2 Tim : 4 , 2. 1 Tim. 3. 2. Tit. 1 , 9. though prophesie was not to be despised , 1 Thes. 5 , 20. Even as the Preists and Levites in the Law , were not appointed ordinarily to prophesie but to † teach , which they did by * reading & expounding the scriptures : and prophesie was “ extraordinary to them or any other of what tribe so ever . Although therfore the preaching of the word now among us , may be called prophesying , for the like use and effects in the church : yet have we not that proper gift or exercise , any more then of tongues : which we attayn by ordinary labour and stvdie , they had without studie . Act. 2 , 4. and 19 , 6. But however M. Sm. taketh the word , I deney prophesying to be worship properly so called : and wil consider his reasons , vvhich are tvvo , 1. praying & prophesying are ioyned togither ( † sayth he ) as parts of worship , 1 Cor. 11 , 4. and men must be uncovered at both of them . Agayn , 2. Prophesying and Psalmes are coupled togither for the same purpose . 1. Cor. 14. 26. The first reason is insufficient , for in 1 Cor , 11 , 4 , praying & prophesying are joyned indeed togither , but not as parts of worship properly so caled , that is of the glosse , not of the text . The thing there spoken of concerneth al ecclesiastical actions : & tvvo differing ech from other are named , to imply al the rest . For Paul speaketh of the habit of men and women , vvhich became them to have in al publik meetings : vvhich vvas , that vvomen should be veiled , men unveiled on their heads : and this not onely because of the vvorship of God : but also † because of the Angels , which are not to be worshiped ; and because of the man , * whose glorie the woman is : yea because of “ nature it self , which by giving women long hayr , teacheth them therby , that their heads should be covered . And by the man † having on ( or over ) the head , is not meant the having of a hat , cap , or bonnet upon his head , for that was lawful even in Gods worship , the Preists having † bonnets upon their heads , by Gods appointment ; and to this day , the Eastern countries put not off their bonnets or tucks when they pray or worship . But it was the having of a covering or veil ( called by the Apostle peribólaion & catacálumma , ) which was a signe of * dishonour and subjection , unmeet for men which were principal in the assemblie , & caried Gods “ image and glorie upon them ; but meet for women , which were inferior to men , both by † creation and otherweise , and therfore were to have * power upon their head , that is , a veil , signifying the power & authoritie which men had above them , as in al places , so cheifly in the church assemblies , wher women mought “ not speak , for the same cause . And that it was a shame and dishonour for men to have their heads covered , appeareth by other scriptures ; as Ier. 14. 4. the ploughmen were ashamed they covered their heads . So David & his men in their sorow and affliction † had their heads covered ; and Haman * in his mourning covered his head ; where the Greek hath the very phrase ( kata kephales ) which th'Apostle “ here useth . And that among the Greeks also , ( such as the Corinthians were ) the like custome was for men to cover their heads in dishonour , reproch , and grief ; † humane histories do record . But bonnets or miters on the head , were a sign * of honour : even as with us , the masters wear hats , when servants stand bareheaded . Whereas therfore the Apostle willeth women to be veiled or covered , it is not onely for the worship of God properly so caled , but because of Gods worship in general , yea because of reverence and submission to men and Angels . So it followeth not , because men must be unveiled at prayer and at prophesie , therefore these two actions are of one and the same nature : for they mought not be veiled in the Church at al ; unlesse perhaps in extraordinary time of mourning and sorrow , they covered their heads , as I have shewed examples in Israel . The other reason from 1 Cor. 14 , 26. where prophesying & psalms are coupled togither ( as M , Smyth sayth ) for the same purpose ; is more weak and lesse to the purpose . For prophesie is not named there ; but if it had been named , it would not have proved it worship properly , any more then tongues , revelations , interpretation , doctrine , which there are named , be parts or kinds of worship . And if because things are named togither we must therefore count them of the same nature , then † fayth , hope , and love coupled togither , and many other things in other scriptures , must be esteemed the same : which is vanitie to affirme . Yea in this * very chapter , Mr. Smyth mought have learned the contrarie ; for it is sayd “ if al prophesie , and one that beleeveth not come in , he is rebuked of al &c. and so he wil fal down on his face and worship God , and say plainly that God is in you indeed . wher Paul sheweth a difference between prophesie & worship , as in name so in gesture , by faling down , whereas at prophesie they † sate . And if men should kneel or prostrate themselves at the ministerie of the word and sacraments , it were liker idolatrie then seemly behaviour in the church : but at worship properly so caled , kneeling , bowing , falling down &c , are the most fit gestures : so as one is put sometime for another , as when Mathew sayth the leper ” worshiped Christ , Luke recording the same sayth , * he fel on his face and besought him . And how often throughout the scriptures is bowing and falling down joyned with worship ? So in Israel , at the ministerie of the word , the people “ stood up ; but at the worship of the Lord they bowed down . Moreover worship being directed unto God himself , ( for he that boweth , kneeleth , prayeth &c. doth these things unto God , as by the Angel it is commanded † worship God : ) and prophesie being directed unto men , ( as Paul sayth * he that prophesyeth speaketh unto men ; ) also the next end of worship , being the glory of God ( Ex. 23 , 14 — 17. with Ioh. 12 , 20. Act. 8 , 27. ) but the next end of prophesie being the edifying exhortation & comfort “ of the church , these things may teach us that prophesie is not worship properly so caled , that is proskunesis : but onely in a general sense , as latreia or sebasis , even as reading the scriptures ( which is for mens edifying , exhortation and comfort as prophesie is ) and al other like ecclesiastical actions . And this word latreuo , Paul † applieth to himself , in his preaching of the gospel ; of vvhom we may learn vvhat manner of vvorship prophesie is . Whereas therfore M. Smyth hath accused us of idolatrie , for reading the scriptures in the church ( vvherein vvee doe but that God commanded , in that manner and to that end ) and the man himselfe calleth and esteemeth prophesie to be worship in the proper sense : he is taken in the snare which he set for the righteous ; and if any be idolaters for such things , himself is one and principall . Or , how ever it be for that , all men may see how he hath sought to abuse vs by his aequivocation , & to shrowd himself in a conceited fansie . Yet one thing more I will observe touching the sacraments , which M. Sm. speaketh not of in this place ; but elswhere in that book sayth thus ; * The publishing of the covenant of grace , and the putting to of the seales : is onely one concrete action or part of worship : for the publishing of the covenant giveth being to the seales : otherweise , breaking bread and baptising are but putting of seales to a blank . Here first I note by the way , how M. S. acknowledgeth the Lords supper and baptisme to be seales of the covenant of grace ; ( as in † another place also he calleth them ; ) yet now being put to his shifts for defense of his anabaptisme , he is driven thus to say , * I deney that baptisme is the seal of the covenant of the new testament . Thus the windie clowd carieth himself to and fro , and rather then he will forgoe his error , he wil contradict that which before he had well written ; though it may be also confirmed by the testimony of the holy ghost , who calleth cir cumcision ( the figure † of our baptisme , ) a seale of the righteousnes of faith . Rom. 4 , 11. But , to the point in hand , if the publishing of the covenant , and the putting to of the seal as baptising with water ; breaking , giving , taking , eating of bread &c. be one concrete , that is , one joynt action or part of worship ( as I grant it is , taking worship generally : ) why is not the reading and expounding or preaching of the word , also one conjoyned action and part of worship : especially seing they were joyned together in Israel , as Nehem. 8. 8. They read in the book of the law of God distinctly , and gave the sense &c. If the Preists and Levits then whose office was to † teach Iaakob Gods judgements and Israel his law ; did thus teach with reading : and if it be true that th'Apostle sayth , * Moses of old time hath in every citie them that preach him , he being read in the synagogues every Sabbath : and if Christ himself first † read the text of scripture and after that preached from it : have wee not as good ground to say that reading and preaching is one joynt action and part of worship , as preaching and baptising ? But it was Satans policie to disgrace the reading of Gods book , and seek to thrust it quite out of the worship of God ; that men mought prophesie ( as now they use to speak , ) out of their harts ; and honour that as Gods proper worship ; and so the serpents word if it were mixed with the Lords , mought the more easily be unespied , the scriptures being absent . But God hath joyned his “ word together with his spirit : that his people should not be deceived by such as † walk in the spirit , and ly falsly . Singing of Psalmes . M. Sm. wil have to be the third part of worship ; because praying and singing Psalms are put together ( † sayth he ) in the same sense , ( that is , as parts of worship . ) 1 Cor. 14. 15 17. Iam. 5. 13. Act. 16. 25. And prophesying and psalmes are coupled together for the same purpose . 1 Cor. 14. 26. Here agayne M. S. omitteth the needful distinction of Psalmes and singing of them . For some Psalmes are written in the Bible , as canonical scripture , given to the Church for to be read , expounded , and sung : which M. S. himself granteth , even of the translation , saying , * It may be read in the Church and sung in tunes . And this singing is with harmonie of voices . An other kind of Psalm there is , which one man vttereth in the Church , and others hear him : of which sort the Apostle speaketh , 1 Cor. 14. 26. when ye come togither , as every one of you hath a Psalm , or hath doctrine , or hath a tongue , or hath a revelation , or hath interpretation , let all things be done to edifying . This kind is far inferiour to the other , as being uttered by men subject to err as wel in singing as in teaching , and it is to be tried by the psalms in scripture , and other authentik books . This was an extraordinary gift as strange tongues and the like . Yet M. S. loving to handle things confusedly , that his error might lesse appeare , speaketh here of singing Psalms as of one sort , and nature . Again , that he might make all serve his own fansie , he describeth singing of Psalms to be † the shewing of our thanksgiving to God , by the manifestation of the spirit , Philip. 4. 6. 1 Cor. 14 , 15 — 17. Wheras we find in the scripture many Psalms directly penned for * doctrine and instruction to the Church , as othersome are for thanksgiving to God : yea matter of all sorts , historie of things past , prophesie of things to come , rebuke , threatning , comfort , lamentation , and what not , is mixed in songs of the scripture , and why such Psalms might not by the spirit be suggested to Christians in Pauls time , ( as wel as thanksgivings , ) I know not any reason at all . So that his reasons of prayer & song mentioned togither , are insufficient to prove them both of one nature properly ; as before is noted of prophesie : rather we are to distinguish praying , singing , prophesying , as three severall gifts and works of the spirit : and all of them Gods worship and service in the Church according to their severall kinds and nature . But it seemeth strange vnto me , that M. Sm. should now both allow of the scriptures to be sung in tunes in the Church ; and also make the singing by gift of the spirit , a part of Gods proper worship in the new testament ; and yet he & his disciples to use neither of these in their assemblies . If it be an ordinary part of worship , why perform they it not , but quarrel with vs , who accounting it an extraordinary gift now ceased , do content our selves with joint harmonious singing of the Psalmes of holy scripture , to the instruction and comfort of our harts , and praise of our God. Separating our selves ( as the holy Ghost * willeth vs ) from such as dote about questions and strife of words , whereof cōmeth envie , contention , and many other euils . OF THE SCRIPTVRES . HAving ended the point of worship , with the nature & parts of it : it remayneth now to see , how this thing is applied by M. S. against reading of the scriptures . And first in the generall touching all manner writings , he sayth that † books or writings are in the nature of pictures or images , and therfore in the nature of ceremonies , and so by consequēt reading in a book is ceremonial . If M. Sm. can prove books & images to be both of a nature , & both alike ceremonies : he may be a Proctour for the Pope , who hath brought images into the Church , for laie mens books . And if the book be to him that readeth , of the nature that an image is to him that gazeth : who would not plead for them both alike , to be used or rejected ? But what if an other would come and say , that words or speaches are in the nature of trumpets or bells ; and therefore in the nature of ceremonies ; and so by consequent as the * silver trumpets ; & † golden bells in the Law were ceremonies , & ended by Christ : so speaking or preaching of the word is likeweise ceremonial & men now must ▪ be all taught by the spirit . Hath not this as good a colour against the audible voice , as the other against the visible writing ? For as the sound of the voice affecteth the eare and understanding of the hearer ; so the sight of the letter affecteth the eye & understanding of the reader : and as far dooth a book differ from an image , in this respect , as a man from a bell . A bell when it soundeth in the eare , yeeldeth no distinct articulate voice , for the edifying of the hearer ; but a man when he speaketh , is vnderstood of the hearers , & his reanable voice dooth edify : so an image when it is looked vpō , affoardeth a man no edification ( no not if it were an image sent frō heaven , unlesse it had a † voice withall : ) but a book when it is read , informeth the mind , and feedeth not the eye onely , as dooth a picture . An image & picture hath a “ mouth & speaks not ; no spirit or breath of life is in thē : but the book of God , is * theopneustos , inspired of God , his spirit & life is in it ; it is not a dumb teacher , but † speaketh & “ testifyeth the mind of God ; and by that which is there written the spirit * speaketh to the Churches . Wherfore a mayn difference is to be put between livelesse pictures & Gods lively oracles in his book ; & so in all writings . And if M. S. continue in this mind that a book and an image are both of a nature , I could with he would set out no more books , but images in their sted : so should lesse harm come unto mens soules , then now dooth by reading his hereticall writings . But if books and writings be in nature of ceremonies , & reading ( as he sayth ) ceremonial ; wherof he giveth this reason , for as the beast in the sacrifices of the old testament was ceremonial , so was the killing of the beast ceremoniall : ) how is it , that he sayd before of reading , that it is a lawful ecclesiastical action ; dooth not the * lying tongue vary incōtinently ? For shall we have legall ceremonies , ( the † shadow of things to come , whose body is in Christ , ) to be used as lawful ecclesiasticall actions ? may we not then have pictures & images of “ cherubims &c. for ecclesiastical use ; as we have the holy scriptures , which by M. S. religion , are in the nature of images & ceremonies . In another † place he sayth , As musicall instruments and playing vpon them was typicall , because it was artificial : so reading of a book was typicall also , because it is meerartificial . So then the playing on the organs , and the reading of the scriptures are both of a nature , both types and ceremonies , & so abolished . How near these reasons & groūds do reach to Iudaism & Familism , I leave unto the wise to judge ; and future things wil shew more : for as yet the † wandring starrs have not run al their course . Of the Original scriptures . AFter his censure of books in general , to be of the nature of images : M. Sm. cometh to fight against the use of Gods scriptures in his worship ; beginning even with the Originals , the Hebrue and Greek as they were written by the prophets & Apostles . Wherin he is fallen into a higher degree of error , or of frawd ; then when we had controversie with him : for then * his plea was , no translation ( for it is apocrypha ) but onely the canonical scriptures are to used in the church in tyme of Gods worship . Now he wil out with canonical scripture also , for the reading of it , he thinketh was a ceremonie ended by Christ : thus see we fulfilled the saying of the Prophet , “ they proceed from evil to worse . And first to prove them ceremonies , he layeth these grounds . † The holy Originals ( sayth he ) signifie and represent to our eyes , heavēly things : therfore the book of the law is called the similitude of an heavenly thing . Heb. 9. 19 — 23. Holy scriptures or writings began with Moses , Exo. 24 , 4. and 31. 18. Ioh. 1. 17. 2 Cor. 3 , 7. Before Moses , holy men prophesied out of their harts , and received and kept the truth of doctrine by tradition from hand to hand . 2 Pet. 2 , 5. Jude ver . 14 , 15. Deut. 31 , 24. When Moses had written the law , he caused it to be put by the ark in the most holy place , as a witnesse against the people , Deut. 31 , 26. therefore the Apostle caleth it the handwriting in ordinances which was contrary to us , which Christ nayled to his crosse . Col. 2 , 14 , Eph. 2 , 15. Hence it followeth that the holy Originals , the Hebrue scripture of the old testament , are ceremonies , 2 Cor. 3 , 3 , 7 Num. 5 , 23. 24. & by necessarie consequent . The book or tables of stone , typed unto the Jewes their hard hart , void of the true understāding of the law . 2 Cor 3 , 3. Hebr. 8. 10. Ezek. 36 , 26 , 27. 2 Cor. 3 , 14 , 15. The ynk wherwith the letters were written , signified the spirit of God. 2 Cor. 3 ; 3 , Heb. 8 , 10. with Exod. 31 , 18. The letters written or characters ingraven signifieth the work of the spirit , who alone doth write the law in our harts . by proportion . also Deut. 9 , 10. with Heb. 8 , 10. Reading the words of the law out of the book , signifieth the vttering of the word of God out of the hart , by proportion . See also 2 Cor. 3. 2. 3. 6. 1 Cor. 12 , 7. The writings of the old testament being ceremonial , are therefore abolished by Christ onely so far forth as they are ceremonial , Col. 2. 14. 20. Gal. 4. 9. The thing signifyed by the book , viz the law of God & the new testament remayneth , 2 Cor. 3. 11. 7. Heb. 8. 6. 7. 13. Here first may be observed , how M. Sm. professing to treat of the originall scriptures , in which both old and new testament , both law and gospel are written unto vs : taketh one part onely , to weet , the law or old testament , and from it will conclude against the whole body of the scriptures ; and this fallacie he often useth in his writings . But if all he here sayth were graunted , that the writings of Moses were abolished by Christ : Yet will it not therevpon follow that the writings of the other Prophets and of the Apostles also , are typicall , ceremoniall and abolished . Nay rather the contrary would follow thus ; that as circumcision , and the passeover &c. were figurative shadowes ended by Christ , no more to be used ; but baptisme and the Lords supper instituted by Christ in sted of the former , are continually to be practised : so the writings of the old testament , if they were shadowes & ended by Christ , yet the writings of the new testament , given insted of the other , are never to be abolished . Secondly , let it be considered what M. Sm. hath here left unto vs , not ceremoniall and unabolished ; the thing signifyed ( sayth he ) by the book , viz , the law of God and the new testament : but where is this to be had ? not in letters written with ynk , on paper , or parchmēt , for all these he sayth are ceremoniall and so abolished ; but written in mens harts as in books , with the spirit as with inck , and so to be uttered by men , out of their harts . If Satan can but perswade this point , he will bring out of mens harts , as out of the bottomlesse pit , a smoke of heresies , insted of the fyrie law of God , & who shall control him . For mens harts now , are the same which Gods book was of old ; and as Israell fetched their lawes , doctrines , worship , and services from the scriptures written with inck : so Christians now must fetch their lawes , doctrines , worship . &c. from the harts of men , as from the tables of the lavv , and vvhat is from thence uttered , is to be counted , as written with inck of Gods spirit . For the hevenly things themselves are as much yea more to be honoured , esteemed , credited ; then the book which was but a type and similitude of heavenly things . H. N. the enemie of Gods scriptures , can shew no stronger ground for his familisme , wherein he reprocheth scripture learning : then this which is here layd by M. Smyth . But the scriptures and reasons which he hath brought , be farr from proving so deadly an error . For the book of God as alwayes , so stil , signifieth and representeth to our eyes heavenly things ; ( although * some figurative extraordinary vse thereof be abolished : ) for it signifieth and teacheth vnto vs the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven . And as the book of the lavv was a witnesse † against Israel , when they ¶ walked rebelliously and with a stiffe neck : so is it a witnesse to this day “ against all Christians that walk in like sort . But such in Israel as had the word * neer vnto them in their mouth and in their hart for to do it ; the book of the Law was a witnesse for them ; a † sure testimony giving wisdom to the simple , a perfect law , converting the sowl ; and the statutes of the Lord therein , were right unto them , and rejoyced the hart , the commaundement of the Lord was pure and gave light unto the eyes : even so to all faithful Christians now , the writings of the Prophets & Apostles is a “ sure word , to which they do wel to take heed , as to a light shining in a dark place ; by it they ¶ beleeve , and so come to life ; and by it * their joy is made full . Agayn M. Sm. erroneously substituteth one extraordinary use of some part of the scripture , for the ordinary uses of the whole . Moses wrote in a book the old testament or covenant of works , ( summed vp in Exod. 20. 21. 22. and 23. chapters : ) which book was read in the peoples eares , and sprinkled with blood , as the people also was ; for a sanction or confirmation of the Testament : in which action there was an extraordinary and figurative vse of the book for that time , which now is abolished by Christs blood which hath confirmed the new testament , and abrogated the old . The holy histories , prophesies , psalmes , parables &c. were never thus sprinkled with blood ; but onely that book wherein the conditions of the covenant were written . Wherefore there were besides this , other ordinarie permanent & perpetual uses of the scriptures , by † reading them privatly and publikly , for the teaching exhorting comforting reproving of the people , according to their daily need & occasion , that every child of God might have knowledge * of the certainty of the word of truth , for to answer words of truth to them that sent unto him ; as Solomon sayth . And therfore as at the publik solemn assemblie of al Israel in the sabbath year , the law was “ read unto them al , that they mought learn , & fear God , and keep al his words , they & their children : so at their particular assemblies in their synagogues throughout every citie , both Moses and ⸫ the Prophets that wrote after him , were read every Sabbath day : and this from old time , even unto Christs dayes on earth , who himself † in his own person and action allowed and sanctified this holy custome ; and commended by his Apostles * al the scriptures fore written , unto his disciples ; and gave them also other scriptures , for like end and use ; & warned them that no man should “ presume above that which is written . Wherefore it is a deceit of Satan for mans ruine , to seek to make the scriptures generally & wholly ceremonial and abolished ; because of that extraordinarie use of them at the sanction of the law , at mount Sinai . But the counsel of God unto his people is , ⸫ seek in the book of the Lord , and read ; & † search the scriptures , for in them ye think to have eternal life . As for the law of God to be written in mens harts by the spirit , this taketh not away the use of the law written in books with ynk ; for in Israel when the bible was read every Sabbath , David had the law of God within * his bowels , whereby he declared righteousnes in the great congregation ; and as he , so every other righteous mans mouth , spake of wisdom , & his tongue talked of judgment , * the law of his God being in his hart , as Moses “ commanded : yet ceased not the reading of the law out of the book . So at this day , true Christians in wose harts Gods law is written , are not ( no though they be † ministers extraordinarily furnished with grace ) to leave the reading of the law written in books any more then they did in Israel ; and Christs Apostles have written the word even ⸫ with paper and ynk , as they spake it with voyce ; to meet with their dotage that dream ynk and paper to be meerly ceremoniall . As for al hypocrites , they are now as heretofore stony harted , and the outward letter written with ynk , resembleth their hypocrisie . But whereas M , S. having cited Deut. 31. 26. inferreth , therfore the Apostle caleth it the handwriting in ordinances which was contrary to us , which Christ nayled to his crosse Col. 2. 14. Eph. 2 , 15. he mismatcheth the places : for Paul speaketh of † worldly rudiments , the outward services of the Law , ( which elswhere he caleth also * beggerly rudiments ) such as was “ circumcisió ; the observing † of dayes & moneths &c. which ordinances were as an handwriting or obligation against the Iewes , witnessing that they were debters unto God , synners , miserable , & under the curse : unlesse they saw and learned Christ in them : by whom the obligation is cancelled , and curse done away . For by circumcising thēselves , they acknowledged ( as by a bil of their hand ) that they were born in syn , and impure by nature : even as we by baptising our selves , doe the like . By offring sacrifices for syns , they acknowledged themselves actual transgressors of the law , and the killing of beasts , argued themselves were vvorthy of death . Novv it vvas not possible * for the blood of buls and goats to take avvay synns , and the lavv “ taught them so much : therfore it vvas a † schoolmaster to lead them to Christ , that they mought be made righteous by faith . This handwriting vvhich stood thus in decrees against the Ievves , and vvhich rose up as an adversarie and contrary unto them : Christ blotted or vviped out by his death on the crosse , vvhere he spoiled also the * principalities and powers , the Divils vvhich vvere readie to plead against Israel , & urge this hādvvriting , these ordinances vvhich they practised , against them ; if they used them not vvith fayth in Christ , but vvith expectation of justice by works of the law . Now this word handwriting figuratively used and applied to the legal ordinances , M. Smyth taketh properly , for the written law and prophets : as if Christ had blotted out them : and taken them from his Church , even as he took circumcision , altars , sacrifices , &c. which how far it is from truth , I leave unto every conscience 〈◊〉 judge . But were it as he thinketh , the writtten word of God , yet must it then be limited , so farr forth onely as men do abuse it , and learn not Christ by it ; for to such onely it is a handwriting , contrary to them : and so is at this day . But this is not the proper use or end of the law or scripture in it self , for it preacheth to men the † word of fayth , and righteousnes therby in Christ , as wel as righteousnes by works of the law : and the gospel hath * witnesse of the law and prophets , and they “ testifie of Christ , & are a † sure word unto Christians . Wherefore it were woe vvith us , if these vvere blotted out , and taken avvay as ceremonies and shadovves abolished : the reading vvhereof both publik and private , is a continual light and comfort to our harts , and confirmation of our holy fayth . And to substitute mens harts ( vvhich are , by testimonie of the prophet , “ deceitful and wicked above al things , ) in sted of the holy bible , vvhose vvords † are al true and faithful : is a miserable exchang ; for eyther men must be as vvere the prophets , * moved and caried by the holy ghost ; and so all their vvords taken for heavenly oracles : or else vve shal be fed vvith chaffe in sted of vvheat , and drink deadly poyson in sted of vvholesome liquor . The serpent is subtile † more then any beast of the field : he savv this ground of making the scriptures of God , ceremonies , and abolished by Christ , vvould be distasted of many , yea of any that feareth God : therefore he laboureth to svveeten this vvormvvood , vvith an after receipt : vvhich yet is so tempered , as it may serve to help forward his purpose , in taking the book of God out of the church . M. Smyth in the † next place granteth , that the holy scriptures are the fountain of al truth : the ground and foundation of our fayth : that by them al doctrines , and every spirit is to be iudged : that they are to be read in the church and to be interpreted : neverthelesse , not reteyned as helps before the eye , in tyme of spiritual worship . There is no such battel , as when a man is at warr with himself : & it is a special judgment wher with God smiteth his enemies . Would any man think that such bitter & sweet waters could come out of one fountain , as have flowed here ? Standeth this eyther with religion or with reason ; that that which as an adversary , is blotted out , nayled to Christs crosse , & abolished as being ceremonial and a worldly rudiment ; should yet be the fountayne of all truth , the ground of faith , &c. If these will stand togither , what wil not ? Then also may circumcision , altars , sacrifices , and other Iewish services , although they were shadowes and abolished by Christ ; yet be reteyned and used of Christians , with a little qualification , and distinction of worship properly so called : and this will like the Iewes very well . But we that have learned Christ , cannot brook such contrary potions . For if the book , writing & reading of it be Iewish shadowes ended and abolished by Christ ; and the hart and speaking out of it , be the shadowed thing , the heavenly truth , figured by , and substituted for the other : we would keep the substance , & leave the ceremony for such as follow shadowes . But if the book of God , the written scriptures , be the fountaine of all truth , and foundation of our faith ; as it is in deed , and we so esteem it : then can we not but detest , that former plot , as a groundwork of Satan , that hung vp the scriptures as our enemy vpon the crosse , so blotting them out as a cancelled bond , and abolishing them for ever . Wherefore the reading and expounding of the scriptures , continueth , now as of old in Israel , where the lavv and prophets were read in the synagogues every sabbath , for to teach & inform Gods people in his vvayes : so read vve them still for like end and vse , and shall by Gods grace ( maugre Satans slights ) so do vnto the end . And as for the snare , the distinction I mean , of spiritual worship properly so called . Which vvas set to take the simple : it is broken * before ; and the adversary himself , if any man be , is caught vvith the same . Yet ceaseth he not , but proceedeth vvith reasons , † that the originall scriptures are not given as helpes before the ey in worship . But the foundations being already overthrovvn ; vve shall vvith lesse difficultie and more brevitie , discover and do away the errors . His reasons are . Because Christ used the book to fulfil all righteousnes , Mat. 3. 15. & having by the use of the book fulfilled the law of reading , he shut the book in the synagogue , to signifie that the ceremonie of book worship , or the Ministerie of the letter , was now expired and finished . Luk. 4. 20. Ioh. 19. 30. First here is the law of reading brought to an end , according to that first ground of ceremonies ; & contrary to the second grant that the scriptures are to be read in the Church and to be interpreted : which reading and interpreting if it be not Gods worship and service , it is the worship of the Divil . Thus M. Sm. wavereth as a reed shaken with the wind . Secondly , in the other side of the leaf , † M. Sm , forgetting himself as a drunken man , sayth , all the worship that was appointed by Moses for the Preists , was limitted to the holy place , whether the people were not admitted ; and therefore reading was of an other nature performed in the utter court or synagogue or elsewhere , eyther by the Levites or any other learned men ; ( quoting againe Luke 4. 16. ) and so no part of worship properly so called , but onely a ceremonial ground or foundation , of inward or outward spirituall worship , common to the Churches of all ages . If this be so , how ended Christ the ceremonie of book-worship , where none was to end ? If there were no proper worship in the synagogues but exercises of an other nature ; then Christ reading in the synagogue , read not worship ; and shutting the book there , shut not up book worship , nor caused it to exspire ; and so M. Sm. hath lost his dream . Agayn , if Christ by shutting the book there , signified an end of reading ; and the reading that there was , ( as M. S. even now sayd , ) was such as is common to the Churches of all ages : then Christ hath ended all manner reading whatsoever in the Church , even that which is common to all ages ; or else the allegorie will turn to a fansie ; & so all reading must be abolished out of the Church ; & that would the Divil faine bring to passe . But the reason of ending reading , is slight ; that because Christ shut the book and gave it to the Minister , therfore he ended the work of reading . He used not to do such weighty matters , by dumb signes , without * word of signification . And if the closing of the book were such a mysterie : what was the taking and opening of the book , nothing ? proportion will cary it to be the beginning , as well as shutting should be the end . But they be vain speculations , to gather from mute actions , an otherthrow of morall lawes , permanent and needful for the the Church in all ages . Neyther was this the first or the last time of Christs reading thus ; for as his custome was ( sayth † the scripture ) he went into the synagogue and stood vp to read : neyther was it a decent thing , that he having received the book shut , should redeliver it open ; their books being long rolls or volumes , not bound vp like ours . Finally this argument against reading , hath like weight of truth , as the Papists have for their vanities , who “ allege for prayer in a strange tongue , that Christ prayed Eli Eli lama sabachthani , which the people that heard him , vnderstood not : and * that he preached out of S. Peters bote , to signify how in S. Peters chaire , his doctrine should alwayes be stedfastly professed . Such trifles must be brought wher sound proofs are wanting . 2. Because reading words out of a book , is the ministration of the letter . 2 Cor. 3. 6. namely a part of the Ministerie of the old testament which is abolished , Heb. 8. 13. 2 Cor. 3. 11. 13. and the ministerie of the new testament , is the ministerie of the spirit . 2 Cor. 3. 6. This scripture of the 2. Cor. 3. M. Sm. often allegeth for his purpose ; pag. 1. & 7. & 13. & 19. and 20. he thought belike it would sound well in simple folks eares , that the reading of scriptures should be the ministerie of the letter . But the ignorance & evil of the allegation is great ; and fitted for Satans policie , to draw men from reading the book of God. For if reading be the Ministration of the Letter there spoken of ; then is it the ministration of death & damnation , as the Apostle there calleth it , vers . 7. 9. and then the Papists have doon best of al , forbidding the people to read the scriptures , least they should gather out of them errors , and so death and damnation . And who can comfortably read the scriptures , if that be the ministerie of the letter , and so death ? But out vpon such a slanderous interpretation ; it is farr from the Apostles meaning . He calleth the Law the letter , figuratively , because it was written with letters , & graved on stones : he intendeth not the books of the Prophets , wherin both law and gospel was written , & alwayes to be read for instruction , comfort & salvation to the people . The law vvas first spoken , and aftervvards vvritten by Moses : the gospel of Christ vvas also first spoken , and aftervvards vvritten by his Apostles . If vvriting and reading made the other the letter , then maketh it this the letter also ; and so the vvord of life , shal be the ministration of death . The lavv if it had never been vvritten , but onely spoken , yet had it been the ministration of death : for all Israel hearing it , † vvere afrayd , and death seised vpon their consciences : and this by hearing Gods lively voice from heaven , not by hearing the stony tables read , for it is not manifest that ever they vvere read unto them , but onely put and kept in the ark for a testimony . Deut. 10. 1 — 5. and when the 10. cōmandements were read * out of the book , there was no such feare : and the glorie of Moses face terrified the people when he † spake and talked with them , for which he put a veil vpon him : but of reading out of a book at that time ( wherto the Apostle here hath reference , ) there is not a word . So it was not reading onely but speaking also without book , which was the ministration of the letter to the Iewes ; and as Paul here calleth the law the letter , so elswhere he calleth it , “ the voice of words . It is not therefore the writing , but the thing written which he intendeth . And if M. Sm. should fall to the heresie of iustification by the works of the law , and teach this in prophesie out of his hart , though he never read line in the holy Bible , yet should he be a minister of the letter and of damnation to his disciples . Of this letter Paul sayth , * it is the ministration of death : but of the scriptures Christ saith ¶ serch them , for in them ye think to have eternal life . Of this letter Paul sayth , it is † the ministerie of condēnation ; but of the holy letters in Gods book , he sayth , * they are able to make one wise unto salvation through the faith vvhich is in Christ Iesus . The law is called the letter ( not letters as the “ scripture is called ) by a similitude : for a letter is an outward visible thing appearing to the eye of an other that looketh on ; whereas the thing whereon it is written , whither paper or stone , is not moved or changed therby . Such is the doctrine of the law to the professor of it . It maketh him seem a fayre hypocrite before men : they look and see the commandments of God written on his forehead , on the fringes of his garments , and on his dore posts : but his hart and mynd are stony stil. For the law renueth no man , but syn that is in us , † taketh occasion by the law , and worketh in us al manner transgression of the law , and so death . But the Gospel is the spirit that renueth & quickneth by faith in Christ : and changeth * the stony hart into flesh , and writeth there the lawes of the most high . Thus by the letter is not meant the holy scriptures , which are Gods instrument for our renovation : but the external work of the law upon a man : in which sense Paul also mentioneth circumcision in the letter Rom. 2. 29. meaning outward circumcision of the flesh to be seen and read of men : where to take it as this man doth 2 Cor. 3. of reading the scriptures , were to follow the “ devouring words of the deceitful tongue . 3. Because upon the day of pentecost and many yeares after the churches of the new testament did use no bookes in time of spiritual worship , but prayed , prophesied and sang psalmes merely out of their harts Act. 2 , 4. 42. and 10. 44. 48. and 19 , 6. 1 Cor. 14 , 15 , 17 , 26 , 37. 4. Because no example of the scripture can be shewed of any man ordinarie or extraordinarie , that at or after the day of pentecost used a book , in praying , prophesying , and singing psalmes : if yea , let it be don and wee yeeld . Nay , it is not in mens power to yeeld to the truth though it be shewed them : or though their own writings convince them : it is in † God that shevveth mercy . First M. Smyth holdeth that such reading as vvas in the Ievves synagogues * was common to the churches of all ages . Secondly he sayth “ the scriptures are to be read in the church , and to be interpreted , Col. 4. 16. compared with Luk. 24 , 27 , & 1 Cor : 14 , 27. and 12. 10 by proportion . 2 Pet. 3. 16. If these assertions and these places alleged , ( let the reader look and examine them ) prove that the scriptures are to be read in churches ; as in deed some of them doe : we need fight no longer : the enemie unawares hath yeilded the feild . His florish that he maketh , how the churches of the new testament used no books , because no example can be shewed : is a deceitful argument . For when there is a ground from God to doe the thing : we are to suppose men did it , although it be not expressly “ written . And this adversary granteth the scriptures were to be read ; and we are sure that the churches were to be taught by the men of God : and Paul sayth that al the scripture † is profitable to teach , to improve , to correct , to instruct in righteousnes : that the man of God , that is the * minister of the new testament as wel as of the old , may be absolute , & made perfect unto al good works . Wherfore as the Preists and Levits which were to “ teach Israel , taught them by † reading & expounding the scriptures ; so doubtlesse did the ministers in the Apostles dayes , upon the same ground and proportion ; though their particular form of administration be not expressed . That cavil of spiritual worship which as a leprosie overspreadeth al M. Smyths book , is before taken away . Praying never was by reading out of a book ; prophesying & singing psalmes , being extraordinary gifts of the spirit , were also uttered by the spirit , without a book . Al this notwithstanding , the scriptures were read and expounded to the people , & so must be stil ; and this though it be not proskunesis adoration supplicatiō or worshiping of God , in the strict sense ; yet is it latreia his worship or service in general . 5 Because none of the bookes of the newe Testament were written many yeres after the day of penticost , at the least 7. yeares : and the Churches al that time , could not use the books of the new Testament which they had not . But they could use the books of the prophets , which they had : wherin both old & newe Testament were conteyned . And Peter cōmended the Churches for * taking heed vnto them , as to a light that shined in a dark place . 6. Because the Churches of the Greeks had no books to use , that they might use lawfully ; for they understood not hebrue , and the septuagints translation ought not to be used or made ; & the Apostles made no Greeke translatiō . &c. If they had no books to use , they were blamelesse if they used none . But they had the Greek translation , which was lawful to be made and used in the Iewes synagogues ; as anon shall be shewed , when the Septuagints work cometh to be scanned . 7 Because as in prayer , the spirit onely is our help ; and ther is no outward help given of God , for that kind of worship ; so also in prophesying and singing 1. Cor. 11. 4. and 14. 16. God never gave books to read for prayers unto him : but * pre , pared mens harts and bended his ear . And as every man † knew the plague , ( and consequently the benefit ) in his owne hart , so was he to pray & supplicate unto God , who heard in heaven , and was mercifull , and did , as he knew every mans wayes and hart . But as in praying men speak their minds to God : so in preaching God speaketh his mind to us ; and this he doth by his scriptures and by gifts unto men for teaching and applying them ordinarily to his Church . Prophesying and singing , hath often been performed by the spirit without book , “ both in the old Testament and in the new * . If any now have such gifts , it were folly to say they must read them out of a book . Reading the scriptures is for ordinary teaching ; which by extraordinary gifts , was never destroyed ; and things coordinate , ar not contraries . 8 Because it is against the nature of spirituall worship : for when we read , we receive matter from the book into the hart : when we pray , prophesy , or sing , we utter matter out of the hart , unto the ear of the Church Ezek , 2. 8. — 19 and 3. 1. — 4. Rev. 10. 8. — 11. If Ezekiel a Preist under the law , prophesyed without a book ; and yet reading the book of the lawe and expounding it , was their ordinary service every sabbath , as before is manifested : all men may see , that these two may stand together in Gods worship , and not one throw out an other , as M. Sm. would have it . Neyther is it against the nature of spiritual worship , to read Gods book in the eares of the Church : for if it be worship in them to heare the spirit speak out of the Ministers hart ; it is worship also in them to hear the spirit speak , out of the holy book . And it cannot be deneyed but Gods spirit * speaketh there ; and that which commeth out of the hart of man , must be tried by that book ; and accordingly , accepted or refused . As for the Minister himself when he readeth out of Gods book , and when he speaketh by gift of the spirit the meaning of the scripture , to the people ; he serveth God in them both : having Christ himself for an example . Luk. 4. 17. — 21. 9. Because upon the day of Pentecost , fyerie cloven tongues did appear , not fyerie cloven books . Act. 2. 3. and alwayes there must be a proportion betwixt the type and the thing typed . Upon the day of Pentecost the fyerie law was given in books , Deut. 33. 2. Exod. 24. 4. 12. upon the day of Pentecost the fyerie gospel was given in tongues , Act. 2. 3. Mat 3. 11. Act. 1. 5. the book therfore was proper for them , the tongue for vs. In deed if any fyerie bookes had appeared at the giving of the law , M. Smyths allegorie would have had some light : but when as no such thing was seen , but onely † a voice of words was heard , as Moses telleth vs ; we should beware of such clowdy collections . The fyerie law mentioned Deut. 33. 2. hath plain reference to Gods promulgating of the law , by voice out of the midds of fyre , Exod. 19. 18. 19. & 20. 1 — 18. Deut. 4. 11. 12. Afterwards those & other lawes were written by Moses in a book , Exod. 24. 4 and God himself vvrote the ten words on tables of stone : not then at Pentecost , but 40. dayes after , Deut. 9. 9. 10. Even so the fyery doctrine of the gospel was first uttered by voice , and afterwards written in books , Luk 1. 1. 3. Act. 1. 1. &c. Ioh. 20. 30. 31. The book then was not proper to them , ( as M. S. feighneth , ) but common also with vs. God by Moses “ first spake , then wrote to his Church : Christ by his Apostles , first spake , then wrote also , to the same Church : and though the * son of thonder wanted no gift of utterance by voice , yet Christ † bad him write : when if he had pleased he could have sent him to speak . And * blessed is he that readeth , and they that heare the words of that prophesie , and keep those things vvhich are vvritten therin : but cursed is he that despiseth reading of the Lords book , and dissvvadeth the Church from that use thereof ; by colourable reasons causing the † blind to goe out of the vvay : and all people should say , Amen . 10. Because as all the worship which Moses taught began in the letter outwardly , and so proceeded inwardly to the spirit of the faithful : so contraryweise all the worship of the N. Testament signified by that typicall worship of Moses , must begin at the spirit , and not at the letter originally . 2 Cor. 3. 6. 8. 1 Cor. 12. 7. or els the heavenly thing is not answerable to the similitude therof . The true and proper worship which Moses taught Israel was the worship of God in spirit and truth , Deut. 5. 7. 8. and 6. 4. 5. 6. though he led them herevnto , under veiles and shadowes , and by the covenāt of works brought them to Christ , who doeth both that covenant and shadowes away as the wise did vnderstand ; Psal. 32. 1. 2. with Rom. 4. 4. 5. 6. 7. Psalm . 40. 6. and 51. 6. — 16. &c. vvith Heb. 10. 8. 9. Their spiritual vvorship , proceeded from the spirit and hart unto God , 1 King. 8. 22. 23. 33. 35. 38. &c. Ezra , 9. 5. 6. &c. Nehem. 9. 5. 6. &c. Of the legal worship , & M. Smythes inept allegorizing therof , is spoken * before ; also his abuse of that scripture , 2 Cor. 3. 6. is already ¶ manifested ; vvith his aequivocation about this vvord worship : that the reader may be vvearied , to have the same things oft repeated . Onely novv the falshood and snare of these reasons against reading Gods vvord , being discovered : let him learne to bevvare of Satans deceipt . For the mouth of an heretik is a deep pit , like the * strange vvomans : he with whom the Lord is angrie shal fall therin . After this M. Sm. feighneth 4. obiections for bookworship , as he termeth it ; and then frameth ansvvers as he seeth good ; but ever and anon retyring to his old skonce of spiritual worship , thinking therby to vvard off all blovves . Though it be a vvearynes to follovv such an empty clovvd ; yet for help to the vveak , I vvil briefly shew his vanity . Reading in the old testament was commanded by Moses , Deut. 31. 9-13 . was amplified by David , 1 Chron. 16. & 25. was practised by Josiah 2 Chrō . 34. 30. by Ezra and Nehemiah , Neh. 8. 8. and 9. 3. allowed by our Saviour Christ , Luk. 4. 16. & by the Apostles , Act. 13. 14. 15. and reported as a thing of ancient approved continuance . Act. 15. 21. To this hs answereth ; First , the reading commanded by Moses was onely once every 7. yere , Deut. 31. 10. 11. and therefore it was no part of ordinary worship , and there is no commandement in Moses , given eyther to the Preists or Levites , for ordinary reading of the law in the tabernacle . Secondly , hence it foloweth , that reading in the old testament , was no part of the worship of the tabernacle or temple , or of the service performed by the preists therin , &c. Thirdly , therfore reading was of another nature performed in the utter court or synagogue or elswhere , eyther by the Levites or any other learned men of what tribe soever : Math. 23. 2. Luk. 4. 16. Act. 13. 14. and 15 , 21. Deut. 31. 9 . -11 . 1 Chron. 16. 4. 7. 37. 39. & 15. 1. 8. & 28. 13. 2 Chron. 34. 14. 30. 31. Neh. 8. & 9. and so no part of worship properly so called , but onely a ceremonial ground or foundation of inward or outward spiritual worship common to the Churches of all ages . Lastly it is not deneyed but that reading now is to be used in the Church : onely we say it is not a part of spiritual worship , or a lawful meanes in time of spiritual worship . M. Smyth cannot see any commandement in Moses for ordinary reading of the law in the tabernacle : and no marvel , for neyther could all the Sadducees see any doctrine in Moses that taught the resurrection of the dead ; but Christ could † find it by necessary consequence : Moses commanded “ the feast of boothes to be kept seven dayes to ●he Lord , mentioning but holy convocations & sacrifices : M. Sm. ( I dare say ) will not gather reading , out of this commandement . But Ezra the Preist and all Israel with him , saw it here implyed and practised it , * by reading the book of the law of God , every day , from the first day unto the last : when they kept this feast . If every seventh day was to be sanctified in Israel , & all things be sanctified by the word and prayer ; and in the synagogues they sanctified the Sabbathes by “ reading the scriptures : reason mought teach us , that the tabernacle was not behind the synagogues in holynes . And where findeth M. Sm. a commaundement to read the law in the synagogues ? yet was it commanded , or els it was will worship and vanitie . The ordinance for Levi to ¶ teach Israel Gods law ; was commandment ynough both to read and preach it , as they did dayly : and they were not so dul or carnal , but they could wel perceive this to belong to their charge and ministerie . But here M. Sm. sayth , that the reading in Israel was no part of worship properly so called : forgetting himself ( it seemeth ) when elswhere he sayth , that the * worship that beginneth in the book , is from the letter or ceremonie and so is not properly of the new testament but of the old ; and againe that , † book-worship is Iudaisme and so Antichristian ; and idolatrie now vnder the New testament ; and againe , that “ Christ shut the book in the synagogue to signifie that that ceremonie of bookworship , or Ministerie of the letter was now exspired . Thus fighteth he against himself ; one while they had book worship ; an other while it was no part of worship ; & if properly so called help not here at a need , M. Sm. wil be found a calumniator both of vs , and of Israel , and of Christ himself . For he would have his reader think that we whom he opposeth , made arguments for bookworship , which here he answereth , wheras we never spake or thought of reading to be worship in such a sense , as he would draw it vnto , nor othervveise worship then reading vvas in the synagogues , by Christ himself , neyther vvas there controversie about worship at all , but onely whether it were Gods word or mans , that we read in the Church , in the worship of God. But now to cloak his blasphemous error , he hath dived into his wit , to bring out a distinction of properly so called : so cogging the reader with the * die of deceit , and calumniating vs. And hath he not also injuried Israel in charging them vvith book worship , and belyed Christ himself , that he should use and finish a ceremonie of book worship ? when yet here he granteth it vvas of another nature , it vvas no part of worship properly so called : it vvas that vvhich is cōmon to the Churches of all ages . As one tossed in the sea of error , so reedeth this adversary to and fro , and staggereth like a drunken man. The second objection he forgeth thus . Reading is commanded in the new testament , Col. 7. 16. 1 Thes. 5. 27. and a blessing promised therto , Rev. 1●5 . and the cōmandement is that it be practised in the church : therfore it is a part or meanes of the worship of the new testament . The summe of his answer hereunto is . Not everie thing performed in the Church , is a part of spiritual worship : for al the parts of publik administration of the kingdom ar done in the Church , and yet cannot be said to be parts of spiritual worship properly so caled chap. 1 , and 2. Properly so called , is a common vizar of deceit , puld off before as here it shal be agayn . For M. Smyth divided the whole leiturgie of the church , into actions of the kingdom and of the Preisthood of the saincts . chap. 1. and 2. The actions of administring the preisthood , he made to be actions of concord and union : and of these generally he sayth , they be actions of spiritual worship properly so called . The actions of administring the kingdom , he made to be actions of opposition , difference plea and strife : and of them generally he sayth , they are not actions of spiritual worship properly so caled . Now here and often he deneyeth reading of the scriptures to be such spiritual worship , therfore it is no action of the preisthood ; therfore no action of concord or union . So when the Preists and Levites read the law in the synagogues , and at their † solemn feasts ; we may not say , they did any action of the preisthood ; and when Christ read the prophet Esaias , Luk. 4. we may not say he did an action of concord or union ; & when * Paul would have his Epistle read in the churches of Colosse & Laodicea ; and Christ would have the “ Revelation read of al , we must not understand them to meane reading as an action of concord or union in the church ; for then it must be an action of the preisthood , and consequently worship properly so called : which M. Sm. wil by no meanes admit of : for he hath limited their bounds : and if any read the scriptures in the church as an action of concord and union , he wil draw it as by the haire of the head , along these grounds , to be † antichristian & idolatrous ; so setteth he his * mouth against heaven . Yet reading he granteth , but it must be of an other nature : and what is that trow we ? He is loth to speak : of the preisthood it is no part ; and in handling the actions of the kingdom , he specifieth it not ; onely there he sayth , that bookes of al sorts may be produced for finding out of the truth : and he quoteth among other Act. 7. 22. and 17. 28. 1 Cor. 15. 33 , Tit. 1. 12. Where the learning of the Aegyptians , and testimonies of the hethen poets are alleged : and further he nameth particularly translations , dictionaries , histories , chronicles , commentaries . &c. Behold here what place this man alloweth the reading of the scriptures , yea even of the Originals : they must not be read but by way of opposition , difference , plea and strife ; they must not be read but where when and as histories , chronicles , commentaries , books of hethen poets and al other like , may be read and produced : so they are tollerable , otherweise there is no place allowed them : though elswhere he † esteemeth better of them then of other writings . But in the actions of the preisthood , in the actions of concord or union , to read them is idolatrie . What haeretik professing Christ could more have sought the disgrace of Gods holy book ; then thus to shut it quite out of Gods worship , allowing it no other place , by these his wicked grounds , then Iulian the Apostata Christs deadly enemy , would and did allow it ( though he esteemed worse of it ) in his blasphemous writings . For eyen he in cases of opposition , plea and strife , * alleged the testimonies of holy scriptures , among other writings ; but in his worship of his Gods he would none of them . No marvel though God have stroken this man like Elymas with the blindnes of Anabaptisme ; it is a just recompence of his former error : that as he would have deprived the church of the use of the scriptures , the instrument of Gods covenant : so himself now should be deprived of the covenant with Abraham and his seed , and become an alien from “ the common wealth of Israel . But let us proceed with his answer . Moreover ( sayth he ) when he commandeth his Epistles to be read in the churches , his meaning is not strictly literal : that is that the very words which he wrote should be repeated verbatim out of the book : but his meaning is that the sense of the words or meaning of the Apostle should be related , whither by reading the very words , by expounding the meaning by interpreting or translating . &c. Loe here the shifts of haeretiks . Paul willeth the church † to read his Epistles , yea * chargeth them in the Lord , to read them to al the brethren ; and writeth to them again , to “ keep the instructions , taught by his Epistle : M. Smyth sayth the meaning is not strictly literal , that the words which he wrote should be repeated : but the sense ralated . As if Paul wāted fit words to set down his meaning , & they that should read , could tel it better . He that readeth , must read words as they ar written , specially in Gods book , & Epistles from the holy Ghost , wherein † no one word is vaine idle or unprofitable , no word misplaced or out of order : and he that shal presume to add or diminish or change the order in reading Gods writings , doth wickedly , and * is neer unto the curse . If things in reading be difficult , God hath given gifts unto men to open and expound them , to the understanding of al : but this expounding is not reading . Reading is first , exactly to the letter ; exposition cometh after with such words as God putteth in the expositors hart ; as by “ Daniels practise , we may learn. Neyther are the words of the expositor comparable to the words of the writer ; these being divine , are al as silver † fined seven times , no drosse mixed with them . The other being humane , ( I speak of ordinary men as we are ) and shewing the mans judgmēt that expoundeth them , are mixed with humane infirmities , mistakings , and sometime deadly errors . Wherfore reading of the Original scriptures wherof here we treat , must be strictly literal , as is in the book . Translations are after to be spoken of ; and is here vainly inserted , for Paul wrote in Greek , which al in Colosse , Laodicea , Thessalonica , and the whol country over , used as their vulgar tongue , that they needed none to translate for them . Further M. S. answereth , that the Apostle wrote upon particular occasions , for particular ends , and the commandment of reading was special in these respects to them &c. yet acknowledgeth he at last , an absolute necessity of reading ; onely he denyeth it to be a lawful help or part of spiritual worship . &c. As the Apostles , so the prophets wrote upon particular occasions ; yet is there a general use , for † whatsoever is fore written , is fore written for our learning , as Paul himself teacheth . Wherefore this cavil is frivolous . An absolute necessitie of reading the scriptures now , as they were read in Israel , and in the Christian churches , and to the same end : is al that we hold , and stand for . Which how it is worship is before shewed . The Apostle 1 Tim. 4. 13. 16. commanded Timothee and so al Elders to attend to reading : wher reading is ioyned with exhortation and doctrine ; & so importeth , that it is to be understood of the ioyning of reading in the time of spiritual worship . This obiection ( as the rest ) is made of M. Smyths own fashion ; and was never thus framed by us . And here he excepteth , that it is not spoken of the execution of his office , but of preparing himself to the execution of it . &c. That reading in the publik church is necessary , he is forced to acknowledge : and in that we rest . If he think this place is not meant of publik , but of private reading : he may keep his iudgment . My self see no cause why it may not also be meant of the publik execution of his office ; for Paul departing from Ephesus , “ besought Timothee to abide there and look unto the Church ; and after † wrote this letter for his direction how to behave himself in Gods howse , whiles he taried away , and in it sayth , * til I come attend to reading , to exhortation , to doctrine . where seing al these are publik ecclesiastical actions , ( as M. Sm. himself granteth , ) seing they are joyned thus togither , & with this limitatiō til J come ; what letteth but these al should be executed by him in publik ? Private reading for his own preparation , was to be alwaies , and not onely til Pauls coming . And as for such preparation , it is mentioned after , in vers . 15 , and both again jointly vers . 16. for the salvation of himself and others . Let it be granted that the Apostles and Evangelists used no books being extraordinay men , and having the extraordinary direction of the spirit , for they needed no such helps of books as we doe : yet wee being ordinarie men have need of books . &c. This last objection , I reject as frivolous , and falsly intimated to be ours . The Apostles I am sure had no greater measure of the spirit then Christ : yet he † read publikly in the book : and so did holy men of God before * him : & publik reading is grāted yet necessary : therfore we are to use it . Though we have more need of the book then the Apostles , ( our memories and judgements not being sanctified like theirs , ) yet had they their infirmities , and “ used books . But it is Gods ordinance of reading , that we stād for : which how M S. hath sought to undermine , and how he is snared in the work of his own hands ; is worthy to be noted with † Higgajon Selah , and meditated to the praise of God. OF TRANSLATIONS . THe first and onely controversie between M. Sm. and us being about the scriptures translated or overset into other tongues , which he affirmed to be apocrypha and humane writings : how ever he hath sought to excuse and hide his error , yet hath he no wil to forsake it , as appeareth by this , that having spoken of writings 1. by men inspired of God , as the prophets and Apostles , and 2. by ordinarie men of al sorts ; he shuffleth the translations of the holy scriptures among these latter ; and affirmeth that * there is no better warrant to bring translations of scripture written into the church , and to read them as parts or helps of worship , then to bring in expositions , resolutions , paraphrasts and sermons upon the scripture , seing al these are equally humane in respect of the work equal ly divine in respect of the matter they handle . Very impious is this comparison which thus matcheth a mans comment or written sermon , with Gods written word set over into an other tongue : for it debaseth the majestie of Gods law , and advanceth too high , the basenes of men . Translation is that in writing , which interpretation is in speaking : namely the expressing of an others mind : but commenting or expounding , is the expressing of ones own mind or understanding . The scriptures first written in Hebrue , and secondarily written in English : do set forth one and the same word & mind of God unto us , though which different letters & sownds : as Emmanuel is interpreted and translated God with us , Mat. 1 23. Messias is interpreted CHRJST in Greek ; ANOJNTED in English. Iohn . 1. 41. Here the Hebrue , Greeke and English differ onely in outward letter & sound ; the meaning substance or essential form being one in them al , & the word of God , so caled by relation , because the mind of God is made knowne hereby to the mind or understanding of man. The different letter or character changeth not the nature of the thing : for if it did , then Emmanuel written by † Matthew in Greek letters 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and by * Esaias in Hebrew letters 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , should not be one and the same name of Christ ; and so the Apostle should be made a falser , & our gospel betrayed to faithlesse Iewes . The different sound or pronūciation changeth not the nature of the thing : for then Messias and Christ shoul not be one and the same ; and so the gospel and new testament , and our faith were overthrown ; and more then Iewish superstition should prevail . But God who hath sanctified by his * spirit , all sounds and languages to the ear : hath also sanctified by the same spirit all † letters and characters to the eye ; as th'Apostles practise sheweth , writing with Greek letters , words and phrases ; which had beene profaned by lying histories and lascivious poets , unto all manner idolatry and wickednes . Herevpon it followeth , that the word of God , in whatsoever letter or language it be written or spoken vnto vs ; is the word of God stil ; so to be reverenced and regarded : and not to be basely and profanely counted among humane and apocryphal writings . A comment or exposition of scripture , as for example , vpon this word Emmanuel , sheweth the mans iudgement mind or understanding that commenteth ; telleth the reason of this name why it was given to Christ , discourseth of his godhed , of his manhood , of the uniting of these two in one person , of the end and use of these , and many such like things . This being done by ordinary men , is properly an humane writing , ( though it may be , agreeable to the word of God , ) shewing by letters as by signes , what is the mind or understanding of such a man in this mysterie of Christs incarnation : even as Paul sayth of his owne divine writing ; when ye read ye may know myne understanding in the mysterie of Christ. Ephes. 3. 4. Now God hath by his Prophets and Apostles written to his Church a short summ of his mind and will ; guiding and * carying them , and † inspiring their writings with his good spirit ; that there should be nothing but “ words of truth , faithfulnes , equitie and perfection in them ; that men mought have a sure ground for their faith and actions , throughout all generations . And minding mans weaknes , the holy Ghost hath omitted to write * many things , ( though otherweise in their nature very good : ) penning such onely as were needful and profitable for our faith and salvation : giving vs warning also to take heed of other things , because there is no end of making many books , and much reading is a wearynes to the flesh . Ecclesiast . 12. 12. But because in these scriptures , somethings are † hard to be vnderstood , and all men know not how to use and apply Gods word unto their times , estates , actions , &c. therefore hath Christ given * gifts unto men , to open and apply the scriptures for the edification of the Church vnto the worlds end : alwayes binding them both teachers and hearers , to the foundation layd † by the Prophets and Apostles , whose writings are sufficient to make men wise “ unto salvation through the faith which is in Christ Iesns . For this cause the holy scriptures are necessarie for al Churches , to be read & expounded unto the people : & as every nation differeth in language , so to have the word spoken and written in their vulgar tongue , which change of the tongue or letter , changeth not the nature of the word spoken or written , but it is stil divine and heavenly . Onely because in this changing or translating , imperfections , wants , errors may fal in : therfore the first writings as the Prophets & Apostles penned them , are to be made the absolute canon , rule , touchstone , whereby al translations are to be tried : by which being tried & found faithful , it is the same word of God , in what language or letter soever , & differeth as much frō humane cōmentaries or expositions , as heaven dooth from earth . But Mr. Sm. avoucheth mens written sermons or cōments upon the scripture , & the scripture it self written in English , to be equally humane in respect of the work equally divine in respect of the matter they handle . Of this his bold and false assertion he maketh no proof at al , it is a speculation of his own hart . Two carnal reasons he setteth down , which are these . To translate the originals into any mother tongue is as wel and asmuch the worke of a mans wit and learning , as to analyse the scriptures rhetorically or logically , to collect doctrines and uses theologically , to give expositions and interpretations of places doubtful . Where first if M. S. mean the action of translating simply , without reference to the mater and thing translated , he doth but dally and seek to deceiv : for writing , printing , translating are al alike humane actions , but the things written printed translated , are differēt , some good some evil , some of God , some of men and of the divil . The books of Moses written printed or translated , are Gods law ; the book of Mahomet written printed or translated , is the divils law : the actions of writing , printing , translating , are mere humane actions in all of these . Now if because translating is an humane action , therefore the thing translated must also be humane , & the work of mans wit and learning : then also because writing and printing are humane actions , therefore the bible written or printed in Hebreue Greek & al languages , must likewise be humane , and the work of mens wit and learning : and then there can be no divine scriptures but the very first copies which the Prophets & Apostles wrote with their owne hands : And if Satan could perswade this ; he would be glad . Secondly if Mr. Sm. meaneth the thing translated , as Moses law , Davids psalmes or other like in English : that these are as wel and as much the work of a mans wit and learning ; as an exposition of doubtful places in them or doctrines and uses collected from them ; he teacheth wicked error , which al of judgment & cōscience wil abhorr . The holy scriptures faithfully expressed in English or any language , is the work of Gods wisdome & unserchable knowledge : and cannot without injury to his majestie , be said to be the work of mans wit & learning ; though man have used his skil in writing or translating it according to the original copie given of God. This plea of Mr. Sm. is like as if Ieroboam should have sayd ; the * cherubims and † the brazen bulls in Solomons temple , are as wel and as much the work of mans wit & skil as my * golden calves ; & if they may be admitted into the house and worship of God , then why not these ? If M. Sm. should answer that the cherubims and bulls which Solomon made , were commanded of God , and from the divine pattern , though humane art did make them ; but Ieroboams calves were from his own hart : so answer I in this case ; the translation is from the divine pattern of Gods original book , and commanded to be made and used ; but to write comments or homilies to read in the Church , is frō a mans own hart , and hath no commandement or warrant from God so to be used ; but are forbidden . Eccles. 12. 12. Secondly he sayth The translator cannot conceive nor expresse in writing the whol mind of the holy spirit conteyned in the originals , but onely some good part of it : the expositor , paraphrast , commentator may expresse as much as the translator , yea and in respect of some particulars , as Hebraisms , Grecismes and the like considerations much more . If a translator cannot expresse the whol mind of the spirit in al the bible , by his interpretation litteral or grammatical : then much lesse can the expositor expresse the whol mind of the spirit in the bible , by his exposition theological . For it is a thowsand times easier for a translator to do his duty to the ful , then for the expositor : yea this latter is utterly unpossible , I say not onely for one man , but for all the men in the vvorld . Though the translator cannot expresse to the full every vvord and sentence in the Bible , yet the most part he may ; vvheras the expositor cannot do any at all , but is still to seek all dayes of his life , and they that come after him also . Hebraismes cannot alwayes be expressed , through defect of the language : yet translation is needful , and the translator is blamelesse . For example , this name God called in Hebrue Aelohim , Gen. 1. 1. is in Greek translated Theos , and that by the Apostles often in the new Testament . Here is a vvant in the language , for Aelohim is in form the plural number , signifying the Trinitie ; yet joyned with a word of the singular number bara , he created : signifying the vnitie of the persons in the Godhed . Such a phrase the Geek tongue vvanted : therefore the Apostles admit of the Greek propriety , doing the ful dutie of translators & the defect resteth in the language , of which they were not Lords . And that the Lord respecteth not so much the words and phrases , as the matter meant by them ; infinite examples in the scriptures do manifest . But whereunto leadeth this cavil ? what if all cannot be expressed in the translation , shall we therefore have none in the Church ? then neyther may we have any preaching by the voice of man ; for none can fully expresse in his sermon , all things that God intendeth by a place of scripture , or any ground of religion . And if preaching must be vsed , though many humane infirmities be mixed with it ; then also reading the scriptures ( and consequently the translations to them that know not the originals , ) must be used , though fewer humane infirmities be mixed therewithall ; seing these both are the ordinances of God , as before hath bene proved . But then M. Sm. wil draw commentaries and homilies into the Church also . But that is denyed to be Gods ordinance . He hath * appointed the lively voice of his graces in the mouthes of his servants to be heard in the Church , for the opening and applying of the word vnto them : but not their writings to be read . And because of some infirmities in translations , to disgrace them , as this man dooth , and match them with commentaries ; it is capele●●in ( as the † Apostle speaketh , ) to play the false vintner with the wine of Gods word . For as such a falser to make sale of his mixture , wherein some wine , much water , yea perhaps some puddle water is brewed togither , mought say , you can have no wine but such as is turned out of the first vessel ; and it cannot be in the turning of it out , but some of the spirit and strength of the wine vvill vapour avvay , some tast it wil have of the nevv cask ; therefore you may as well drink of this liquor , for in respect of the vessell they are both alike changed , in respect of the matter they are both alike wine . Let M. Sm. therefore cease his odious comparisons of the translation with the comment : or else let him shew us some comment or sermon written upon any text , wherin at the least there is not water and wine , and perhaps death in the pot . OF THE LXXII . INTERPRETERS . HEre † M. Smyth before he proceed further , takes up an accusation against the Church of Israel , who in the dayes of Ptolomee Philadelphus King of Egypt , and at his request sent 72. learned Iewes to translate the Hebrue Bible into Greek before the Apostles time almost 300. yeares . This their translation ( sayth M. Smyth , ) was a grevous syn . 1. For that the covenant of grace ought not to have been preached vnto the gentiles til the fulnes of time Mat. 10. 5. 6. 1 Tim. 3. 16. Rom. 16. 25. 26. with Mat. 10. 5. 6. & 28. 19. and therefore that the Lxx. by their translation did communicate it to the Graecians , before the fulnes of the time , was their greevous syn . I answer in the behalf of Israel ; First , by M. Smythes divinity , the Church of Israel * was a carnal people , had a carnal covenant or promise of carnal things , &c. how is it then that he chargeth them here with profaning , the covenant of grace ? and how wil this agree with his grounds of Anabaptisme ? Secondly , by his divinity also , the scriptures and reading of them , is the mimistration of the letter 2 Cor. 3. 6. that is of death & damnation ; as * before hath been handled . How then could the litteral translation & reading therof , be the ministerie or covenant of grace ? the ministration of death , was fit ynough for the Gentiles that were to die . Or , did it kil them before the tyme ? Thirdly I deny his collection from those scriptures against this action : for although the fulnes of time was not yet come , that God would send preachers with the power of his spirit , to convert all nations : yet followeth it not herevpon , that no gentile , no nation , ( no not though they desired it , as King Ptolomee desired the Bible ; ) mought have the truth imparted unto them . There is no such law made of God ; nay the cōtrarie is playne . For , 1. ther were many strangers , Aegyptians & others that went out with Israel to the Land of Canaan , not forbidden nor debarred of grace with Israel , Exod. 12. 38. nay the law admitted any stranger to circumcision & the passeover , & so to the covenant of grace , Exod. 12. 48. 49. 1 Cor. 5. 7. 2. The Gibeonites which were of the worst sort of hethens , devote to destruction , yet obteyned mercie with God , to be in the covenant of his grace . Josh. 9. 27. 2 Sam. 21. 1. 2. 5. &c. 3. There were also in Solomons time 153. thowsand and 600. strangers , none exempted from partaking with Israels mercy . 4. God gave his law to be read even unto strangers also , Deut. 31. 12. so far vvas he from vvithholding grace , if any sought it . 5. And solomōd dicating the tēple prayed even * for strāgers , that dvvelt in far countries , ( vvho mought vvhen they heard of Gods name , come thither and pray in that house ) that they even all people of the earth mought know Gods name , & fear him as did his people Israel . All vvhich do shevv the untruth of M. Sm. collection , that it vvas a syn for Israel to impart the scriptures and covenant of grace to the gentiles . Because all the Gentiles ought to have been Proselytes of the Iewes Church , and to have come to Ierusalem to worship , Exod. 12. 43. 49. Mat. 23. 15. Act , 2. . 10. and ought to have learned their tongue and worship , which was prevented by the Lxx. translation . First , this reason enterfeireth vvith the former ; for , if all ought to have beene proselytes : hovv might not the covenant of grace be preached vnto them ? Could they be converted vvithout the vvord of the covenant ? Here the accuser of the Saincts hath † rolled a stone , which is returned unto himself . Secondly , their conversion vvas not hindered but furthered by the Greek translation ; for many novv might read and hear of Gods name , enquire after his truth and finding it , come to Ierusalem , and learn that tongue , if they could . So yet the seventie are not found in syn , vvhich helped men to righteousnes . Because the Hebrue characters and writings were ceremonies , and so ought not to have been prophaned among the Grecians by their wr●ings &c. Whether the characters were ceremonies or no , the LXX . are innocent of this blame ; for they wrote the bible to the gentils in the Greek characters , syllables , words , sounds &c. and not in Hebrue . If M. Smyth make the substance of the scripture a ceremonie , that is a shadow to be ended and abolished at Christs coming , it is † a wicked error . Or if he make the characters ceremonies in that sense , it is erroneous : for the Hebrues converted to Christ may & ought to read the Hebrue scriptures in the Church , as they were wont in their synagogues . The profaning and abusing of the translated scripture was in deed a syn , in al that so did : so was it if any Israelite or stranger profaned the Hebrue . Yet Hebrue copies might goe abroad , notwithstanding the danger of profanation , how much more the Greek ? The personal synns of some , may not hinder the publik good . Otherweise , at this day bibles should not be printed and commonly sold , because atheists and profane people may buy and abuse them . The scriptures are as much to be reverenced now , as ever they were ; although M. Sm. hath laboured their disgrace . If it were unlawful to sing one of Davids Psalmes in a strange nation as Babylon , Psal. 137. 4. then much more unlawful was it to translate the scriptures into a strange tongue : for the ceremonial law was bounded within the holy land . If at this day Turks captiving Christians should ask in scorn and mockage to sing some spiritual song for them to laugh at , I doubt not but we should answer them as the Iewes did the Babylonians ; & not expose Gods word to derision . But if any would hereupon infer , it were syn to translate the scriptures into vulgar tongues , M. S. himself * would condemn him : like mesure must be meted to himself , for these frivolous reasons . The scriptures were not ceremonies , ( though there was some figurative use “ of the book of the law , ) but if they had been , yet this is an error in M. Smyth . to bound them within the holy land . For circumcision was a shadow , ( or as he calleth it , a ceremonie ) yet did they it in Babylon , and many shadowes moe . And for the scriptures , who doubteth but the Iewes had and used them in Babel , which was out of the holy land : Yea some of the scripture was written and sent to Babylon , as Ier. 29. 1. &c. some written in Babylon , as the prophesies of Ezekiel and Daniel , Ezek. 1. 1. &c. and some written in the Babylonian language , and not in Hebrue , as Ezra . 4. 7. 8. &c. Dan. 2. 4. 5. &c. Wherfore if any Babylonian would have sought for God , the scriptures should not have been deneyed him . The translation &c. is contradictorie to the Lords mercy to the Iewes Church , and their special privileges . Psal. 147. 19. 20. Rom. 3. 1. 2. Act. 10. 28. and 22. 1. 2. 3. 4 — 18. Eph. 2. 11. 12. 13. 14. 15. Act. 13. 46. 47. 48. Rom. 16. 25. 26. This reason is in a manner the same with the first , and so before answered . The Iewes privileges even then appeared , that the Gentiles must have the instrument of mercy , the scriptures from them . And that God gave them this not for themselves onely , but also for the Gentiles occasionally , is before proved . Generall mercy I know there was not , as is now under Christ. Peters fact was caled in question , about conversing and eating with them , being uncircumcised , Act. 11 , 2. 3. not for letting them partake of the privilege of Gods word : for it was permitted the Gentiles to hear the word read and preached in the synagogues , as appeareth Acts. 13. 42. 44. 46. 48. And how was it contradictorie to Gods mercy to the Iewes , when his prophets wrote some of the scriptures in the hethens language : as did Daniel and Ezra , which are mentioned before . Because that seeing the Hebrue writings were ceremonies , it was unlawful for the Septuagint to change them from their proper kind , and to picture them out by the Greek writings for the Greeks use . Here agayn is a repetition of the third reason , refuted before : and if he wil he may make it twentie ; by a little change of the words . But the weight of the argument is shewed to be too leight : and Greek writings for Greeks use , was no more unlawful , then Chaldee writing for the Chaldeans use ; which the LXX . had learned by Daniels example , if no way els . Because the LXX did of purpose concele many things , as iudging the Gentils unworthy to know them fearing also least they should profane such holy mysteries , wherein their consciences told them plainly that their translation was syn . Also they did pervert many things of purpose , add somthing , and infinitely corrupt their translation , which was their greevous synn . This last reason seemes to come from M. Smyths gealous head , or surmising hart : and it is overthrown by himself . For a little after he † sayth , it is manifest by histories that the LXX . translation is lost ; and this that goeth under the name of the LXX . is a patcherie made out of ancient writings . If this be so , how knowes this accuser , that they infinitely corrupted their translation ? seeing he never saw their work , which long synce is lost ? Belike he thought it might be so ; and therfore he wrote it was so . If he make not better proof of this his heighnous charge ; al men may see whose sonne he is , that so calumniateth the saincts : & readeth without book not onely their infinite errors , but what their consciences told them also . His inference hereupon , that the Apostles would never account so synful a translation to be holy scripture coming from the holy Ghost , nor approve the use of it in the Greek churches ; This faleth with his weak reasons : there being no such greevous syn proved against the Greek translation : but rather we may judge it a blessed work of God , that hereby brought many Gentiles to be proselytes , and prepared them for the receiving of the gospel . Albeit I deney not but errors were in the translation , some of which as occasion was , the Apostles in their writings did amend . And whereas he further sayth , there could be no use of the LXX translation for reading in the latine church of the Romans . I answer , First if there was use of it , in the Greek churches onely : it is ynough to warrant like use of translations in al churches , in what tongue soever . Secondly , there could be use of it even in the church of Rome , where the Greek tongue was commonly known before the Apostles time , as † Tullie testifyeth , and the poets * taxed the people for it . And if they understood not Greek , is it likely that Paul would have written his Epistle to the Romans in Greek , as he did ? seeing he misliked speaking ( and consequently writing , ) in an unknown tongue . 1 Cor. 14. 6. 18. 19. M. Sm. having spent his strength , ( though in vain ) to heap syn upon Israel for translating the bible : “ procedeth unto arguments against reading translations in time of worship . Where first I wil give the reader advertisement , how contrary this enemie is to himself : and then I wil come to his frawd against the truth . Of the scriptures set over into other languages , commonly caled translations ; he thus affirmeth † A translation is as much and as truly an humane writing , as the apocrypha ( so commonly caled ) writings are . Againe he sayth , Translations are not the pure word of God , and so contrary to Eccles. 12. 10. Mat. 15 , 9. Agayn , * that translations of scripture , and written sermons upon the scripture , are equally humane in respect of the work , equally divine in respect of the matter they handle . These and the like blasphemous opinions he sought to infect our church withal , for which he was resisted : these laboured he by word and writing to confirm , with sophistical reasons , the pillars of al heresie . Yet even in this same book , he pulleth down this his former uncouth building ; it being the nature of error , as the “ foolish woman , to destroy her howse with her own hands . For afterwards he writeth thus , † The translation agreable to the originals , is a secondary scripture , yet much inferiour to the originals . So then it is not apocryphal , unlesse he use a fallacie in this word scripture : for we understand hereby ( as Christ * himself did ) holy scripture , inspired of God : as 2 Tim. 3. 15. 16. It may be read ( sayth he ) in the church , and sung in tunes . Then ( say I ) it is not as the apocryphal ( so commonly called ) writings are : for their very name signifying hidden , teacheth that they are not to be read in the publik church . Jt may ( sayth he ) be expounded in the church . But so ( say I ) may not homilies be , nor apocryphal writings . And if M. S. in his synagogue doe read and expound such scriptures to his people , he maketh thē with himself notorious idolaters . Exod. 20. 4. 5. 2 Tim. 3. 16. 17. Eccle. 12. 10. The matter of it ( sayth he ) agreable to the originals , is inspired to weet , of God. But the matter ( say I ) of the Apocryphal books , as Iudith , Tobie &c. though exactly translated , is not inspired vnlesse of the Divil ; for lyes and fables are in them both , the translations I mean , and the original Greek copies . Jt may be made a ground of our faith ( sayth he ) and an instrument to try doctrine by . Then is it ( say I ) not apocryphal but Canonical : for it is made a † canon , that is , a rule of our faith and walking . But far be it that humane apocryphal writings should have such vse in the Church of God ▪ Wil M. Sm. ground his faith upon this , that ther are * seven holy Angels , which present the prayers of the Saincts ; and that lying Raphael , ( of the kinred of “ Azarias , ) is one of them ? wil he ground his faith upon this , that † the smel of the hart and liver of a fish perfumed on the coles , wil so drive away the Divil , that he shal never come againe any more ? or wil he have his disciples to try their religion by such crooked instruments ? no marvell though they be led with him into the ditch , when they try his doctrine by that which they professe to be as much and as truly an humane writing , as the Apocrypha ( comonly so called ) writings are . For it argueth that eyther they use the Bible but for a shew and colour , ( seing they esteme so vily of it : ) or else that they honour the base borne apocrypha , as inspired of God. Which is the very syn & snare , that they have sought to bring upon us . Now let vs examine his arguments . 1 Thes. 5. 21. Try all things , keep that good thing . But no man ignorant of the tongues can trie whither the translation be fit or good : & therfore no man ignorant of the tongues , can strictly keep or read a translation in time of worship . Here first M. Sm. striking at the translation , mysseth that , and hitteth onely the ignorant reader of it : for if one have skil of the tongues , & know it to be truely translated ; this reason maketh nothing against his reading , but for it . So M. Sm. playes the sophister , to argue against a holy thing , because of the ignorances & infirmities of some men . He mought thus have cavilled against reading the law in Israel ; that no man blind of sight ( as was “ Ahijah the prophet ) could trie whither the original scriptures were truly written or not . Secondly , if he proceed further as he hath begun , hereafter he may come with like reason thus : Try al things , keep the good thing : but no man ignorant of the tongues , can trie whither the interpretation of scriptures which the minister giveth in preaching the word , or any text that he allegeth in his doctrine be fitt or good ; then mind what conclusion the Divil wil make hereupon , in a simple mans conscience : to draw him to doubt of , and consequently to forsake and despise , not onely al reading , but also preaching of the word , because he being ignorant of the tongues , cannot judge or trie whither that which is read or taught be true ; according to the original scriptures . And thus he falleth into the snare of Satan , which Mr. Sm. here hath set in secret . Thirdly , this reason overthwarteth that which elsewhere the man granteth ; that the † translation may be made the ground of our faith and an instrument to try doctrine by . This being so , how dooth Pauls counsel ( Trie al things &c. ) make against translations ? Rom. 14 23. 1. Tim. 1. 4. - 7. Heb. 11. 6. whatsoever cōmeth not from faith is syn . but no man ignorant of the tongues can of faith use the translation , seing he cannot examin it whither it be good or bad ; and so beleve or refuse it . Therefore it is not of faith in him , and so it is syn for him , to use it before the eye in time of worship . Like sophistrie and impietie is in this argument as in the former ; for it concludes not the thing unlawful in it selfe , but onely in him that is ignorant of the tongues ; and his faith , it seeks to shake . For ther is no faith without * Gods word , and where to have this word he cannot tell . If it be set over from the originals to his mother tongue in writing , he cannot trie whither it be good or bad : if the Minister translate or interpret it by voice , the poor man is as much uncertain , or more , whither the teacher speak true or false . Thus can he neyther read nor hear of sayth , if M. Smyths engine once take him : But eyther he must look for enthusiasmes , or revelations from heaven ; ( vvhich some Anabaptists have dreamed of ; ) or els , he faleth to profanenes or desperation . And it is not M. Sm. distinction of worship properly so called , that here vvil comfort the troubled sovvl ; for he must doe † al , especially his ecclesiastical & religious actions of fayth , and not his proper vvorship onely . Yea the serpent wil build more on this rotten foundation , and assault him also that hath skil in the tongues and trouble him , saying ; though thou hast knowledge of Hebrue and Greek , yet hovv canst thou tel vvhither this that thou readest , be the pure vvord of God ? There be many * Ievvish fables and humane “ traditions , that have been vvritten in Hebrue , and in Greek also : and vvhither God spake or vvrote these things , as novv thou readest them , thou knovvest not : and therfore canst not of faith make this book a ground of thy religion and vvorship . And if thou vvilt credit M. Smyth , loe he telleth thee , that † as Antichrist hath polluted al Gods ordinances , so hath he violated the original scriptures . Do not thou therfore build thy fayth upon the scriptures any longer ; but beleev that which M. Smyth and his like , shal prophesie out of their harts , for so he * sayth , holy men prophesied before Moses time : ( and indeed so some prophesyed “ in Ezekiels time , though they vvere blamed for it : ) & † books are in the nature of pictures and images , and therfore ceremonies , and reading a book is ceremonial ; and † reading Prophesies in the time of the law , was a type of prophesying : and * reading the words of the law out of the book , signified the lettering of the words of God out of the hart : and “ Christ fulfilled the law of reading , and shut the book in the synagogue , to signifie that the ceremonie of book-worship or ministerie of the letter was now exspired and finished : and now † the worship of the new testament must proceed originally from the hart and spirit . Wherfore lay aside the scriptures , and hear what men shal prophesy out of their harts ; orif that like thee not , exspect thou revelations and visions from heaven . Thus M. Sm. as a * snare on Mispah , & a net spred upon Tabor , hath layd in his book such a groundwork against the script ▪ as fitteth the Divils purpose to intāgle mens sovvls ; although to deceive the birds withall , he hath strewed some wheat at the mouth of the pit , as , that translations may be made the ground of our faith , & an instrument to trie doctrine by : &c. so breathing out of one mouth , both hot and cold . A translation made verbatim from the originals is absurd by reason of the difference of the dialects , & therfore unlawful seing it edifieth not , 1 Cor. 14. 26. a translation paraphrastical or a paraphrast if it be lawful in time of worship to be read then why not a written sermon . These are but blocks , to make the blind stumble . Gods word may be set over into English , for the most part word for word without absurditie : and where our language wilnot bear the strict proprietie of the original phrases ; we are warranted by the Apostles allegations of scriptures in an other tongue , to use such words as the language wil affoard , to expresse the other withall . Though tongues differ one from another in proprietie of speeches : yet God hath sanctified them all , for instruments to convey his word and law unto us ; and this in writing as well as in speaking . Dan. 2. 4. &c. Act. 1. 4. 8. 9. — 11. & 15. 23. Rev. 1. 11. 19. Written sermons are the works of men : Gods book set over into English , though with some diversitie of phrase , is Gods book and word stil ; for ( as hath been shewed ) it is not the letter or sound , but the thing signified & meant by them , which properly is Gods word , and which we are so to reverence . But M. Sm. having granted that the translation may be read in the Church , made a ground of our faith &c. and now asking why a written sermon is not also lawful in Gods worship : eyther alloweth humane writings to be read in the Church , as wel as Gods writings translated , which is a notable error ; or els he cavilleth against the truth , contrary to his cōscience : And in his reasoning , dealeth like a false coyner ; who because the gold of the common wealth is not so fine perhaps , as the gold of * Ophir or † Vphaz : sayth to the merchant , if such course metal may be taken for mony ; then why not brasse or copper ? A paraphrast , commentarie or exposition upon a chapter which conteyneth more of the contents of the originals and the holy Ghosts meaning is vnlawful to be read in time of worship : therefore a translation of a chapter which conteyneth lesse , is unlawful also to be read in time of worship . First by Mr. Sm. grownd layd in the “ beginning ; a paraphrase , comment or any humane writing , may be used in the administration of Christs kingdome , in like sorte as the scriptures ; which is erroneous . Secondly he addeth more to his error , in teaching here that a cōmentary hath more of the contents of the holy Ghosts meaning then the text it self in English or othertrāslatiōs . His cōclusiō therfore bringeth forth vanitie , and ¶ his belly hath prepared deceit . No cōmentary in the world made by an ordinarie man , conteyneth the meaning of God , so as the text it self in a faithful translation of the book or chapter dooth . Thirdly , Mr. Sm. confesseth that † the matter of the translation agreable to the originals is inspired : but not the writing or character . If the thing written be inspired of God , then is it canonical scripture , 2. Tim. 3. 16. then not apocryphal nor an humane work , as a commentarie : then conteyneth it more of the contents of the originals , then any mans exposition . As for his exception of the writing or character , it is but vanitie : for the Apostles had the matter of their writings by inspiration , frō God : as for the writing or character , that was not inspired ▪ but Gods word was written in such characters , words , phrases , as the hethen Greeks , philosophers and Poets , had used long before . Lev. 22. 22. Mal. 1. 8. 13. 14. Mat. 22. 37. Rō . 12. 1. 2. Ps. 119. 45. & 103. 1. God wil be served with the best we have . But ther is no one translation the best we hav , seing the Lord may in time of worship , minister better to him that administreth , if he understand the originals ; if he understand not the originals he hath it not at all , for it is an other mans work ; and therefore no one translation written may be read in time of worship . M. Sm. is like one of them that † hunteth the sowles of Gods people ; setting reasons as hayes to intangle . No one translation ( sayth he ) is the best we have seing the Lord may in time of worship minister a better : as good a reason against reading the translated scriptures ▪ tures , as if he should have sayd unto an Israelite , no one sheep of thy pasture is the best thou hast : seeing the Lord may in time of worship minister a better , ( as he did the ram * to Abraham : ) therfore no one sheep of thym may be offred for sacrifice Mal. 1. 8. Nay his reason against translations hath not so good a colour as this : for it is certaine that God once ministred a ram to Abraham for sacrifice ; but it was never heard that God so ministred an other translated book to read , then that which was brought to be read . The gift of interpreting or expounding by voyce , is of an other kind , and not properly reading , wherof we intreat . But let us follow M. Sm. in his circle , & see whither he wil lead us . No translated bible may be read in Gods worship , for God may minister a better : what then ? shal I bring the original bible & look on that , exspecting what interpretation God wil give me to speak : seeing I may not read ? Not so neyther ( sayth M. S. ) “ the holy original scriptures are not to be reteyned as helps before the eye in time of spiritual worship : So then neyther is that the best sacrifice yet , but I must exspect the Lord to minister a better . If neither the translated bible nor the original be the best : where then is the word that is best to be read or uttered to the people ? In a mans owne hart : that must be the book out of which M. Sm. wil have Gods lavv to be read in his vvorship : al other books are as images and ceremonies , abolished , & ended by Christ. Though he plead here against translations , colourably ; yet he aimeth at Gods book generally , even as his holy Prophets and Apostles vvrote it . But the vvickednes of this engine is before discovered . Also for translations this further I say ; the scriptures in English are the best for to read unto English eares ; better then eyther Hebrue or Greek , which they cannot hear . And seeing it is needful the scriptures should be read ; the translation is best . Yet so , as no Christian is tied to the words of the book , but if he know any error in print or tralation , or any better words to expresse Gods mind ; he is to do all things for the best unto the church ; giving the sense togither with his reading , as the practise was in Israel , Nehem. 8. 8. But he that withdraweth corn , the people shal curse him , † sayth Solomon : how much more deserveth this mā the curse of Gods people , that hath sought to withdraw from them in al their publik worship , the whol scriptures and book of God , whereby the true corn and bread of their sovvles , is broken unto them . Deut. 16. 16. 1 Chro. 21. 24. Eph. 4. 8. Rom. 12. 3. we must worship God with our own , not with another mans : with that which cost us somthing , not with that which cost us nothing . But for one ignorant of the tongues to read the translation and offer it to God , is to offer to God an other mans labour not his own , that which cost him nothing , but is an other mans cost , therfore it is unlawful . Al vvisdoms vvords † are playn and straight ; but M. Smyths are rough and crooked . Who ever said before , that men read translations and offred them to God ? He mought as vvel have sayd , vve minister the sacraments unto God. For if he mean , the last end is the glory of God : so is it of al a Christian mans actions . Did Paul vvhen he * charged that his Epistle should be read unto al the brethren the saints , mean they should read and offer it unto God ? Or had it been for them to except ( as this man here cavilleth ) we must worship God with our own , not with an other mans , with that which cost us something , not with that which cost us nothing : but this Epistle cost us nothing , it is another mans cost and paynes : therfore it is unlawful to read it , and offer it to God. If this reason had been ridiculous in them , vvhy they vvould not read Pauls Epistle : even so is it here in M. Smyth , for vve read the bible ( vvhich is Gods Epistle “ unto us , ) in no other manner , nor to no other end then they read Pauls letter vvhich vvas part of † holy scripture ) in the church , and the book costeth us as much , as that cost them . And David vvhich vvould not * offer burnt offrings wtihout cost : vvould he not read , or be at the reading of the book of the lavv in the church , because it cost him nothing , “ but had been vvritten by Moses , and freely given unto Israel ? Never vvas ther heard more childish sophismes . But vvhat if a man translate a book or chapter or text himself and vvriteth it : this is his ovvn cost , I think : & then he may read and offer it to God , or els M. S. cavilling is litle vvorth . Reading a translatiō is not cōmanded , nor was ever practised by Christ , the Apostles , or primitive churches in time of worship , & so being devised by mā , is the account of vain worship Mat. 15. 9. and wil-worship Col. 2. 23. and so a kind of idolatrie , and therfore the translation is self before the eye in time of worship an idol , and so hath a curse denounced against the use of it in time of worship . Rev. 22. 18. Exod. 20. 4. 5. Though they curse , yet thou wilt blesse , sayth * David to God against his enemies : and so say I against this adversary , who curseth the reading of the scriptures , as a wil-worship ; which God “ hath blessed : so maketh he himself by his blasphemie , a † child of the curse . And by his own mouth let him be judged : for thus he writeth in his book . * Mat. 28. Christ commandeth to goe teach al nations , and therefore al nations may have the holy scriptures translated into their own vernacular tongue , that thereby they may learn the truth . Then further he addeth . The translation agreable to the originals , may be read in the church and sung in tunes , may be expounded in the church , may be made a ground of our faith &c. From whence I reason , if Christ commanding the Apostles to teach Mat. 28. did therby intimate a commandement ( or permission ) of translations to learn the truth by ; and such translations may be read & expounded in the church , & made a ground of our faith : then we & al other Christian churches that have made and used translations to this end , are not idolaters , neyther have used wil-worship , nor incurred the curse : but it hangeth over M. S. own head , if he prevent it not by repentance . Writing and reading the law is a part of preaching the law , Act. 15. 21. Deut. 33. 10. with Nehem. 8 , 7 , 8 , Mat. 28. 19. with 1 Thes. 5 , 27 , Eph. 3 , 4 , Col. 4 , 16 , Rev. 10 , 10 , 11. with Rev. 1 , 19 , and 22. 18. Preaching must be in al languages , therefore writing and reading must be in al lāguages : & being a part of preaching of the word and one joynt action with it , ( so as one and the * same word is used in the holy tongue both for to read and to preach , ) it is a part of the vvorship or service of God in spirit , in the gospel of his son , as Paul speaketh ; Rom. 1. 9. But “ woe unto them that speak good of evil , and evil of good ; and vvith feighned vvords make merchandise of mens sovvls : † their judgment long agon is not farr off , and their damnation sleepeth not . A translation being the work of a mans wit and learning , is asmuch and as truly an humane writing as the Apocrypha ( so commonly called ) writings are ; and seeing it hath not the allowance of holy men inspired but is of an hidden authoritie , it may be iustly caled Apocryphon , for the signification of the word importeth so much , and therfore not to be brought into the worship of God to be read . The Apocryphal vvritings are humane both in matter and form , in language , letter , vvords , sentences , method and order : the book of God set over into English , notwithstanding the difference of the letters and sounds , is yet for the substance divine , the words , sentences and methode heavenly . He that translateth faythfully , altereth not the nature of the work translated , neyther maketh he it his own . Luke translating into Greek Esaias prophesie from the Hebrue , ( Luk. 4. 17. 18. ) and we translating it into English , have not changed the prophesie it self , from divine to humane , from Gods work to mans : it was no fruit of our wit or learning to find out such a prophesie of Christ ; but we understanding the originals , expresse the same thing in English which Esaias wrote , and it is his prophesie not ours . And the visions of Iohn in the Revelation now Englished ; are not as much and as truely an humane writing , as if M. Smyth should make a book of visions or dreames , out of his own witt and learning , and set it forth in English. Wherefore his hart is striken with * the darknes of Aegypt , that can see no difference betwixt the Prophets and Apostles set over into our tongue , and other mens apocryphal writings ; but maketh these alike asmuch and as truly humane . Agayn this enemy of Gods book is herein condemned by his own mouth , for the apocrypha commonly so called , are holden and described thus ; “ These books &c. are called apocrypha , that is books which were not received by a common consent to be read and expounded publikly in the church , neyther yet served to prove any poynt of Christian religion , save inasmuch as they had the consent of the other scriptures called canonical to confirm the same , or rather whereon they were grounded . These things are spoken of the Apocrypha , not as touching the outward letter or language , but for the substance or things in them conteyned . But M. Smyth alloweth translations to be read and expounded publikly in in the Church , and made a ground of our fayth : which agreeth as wel with this his argument , as did the evil servāts plea with his practise . Luk 19. 20. 22. &c. Al the arguments used against the reading of homilies and prayers , may be applied against the reading of translations in time of worship , as , 1. they do stint or quench the spirit , which is contrary to 1 Thes. 5. 19. 20. 2 Cor. 3. 17. 2. They are not the pure word of God : and so contrary to Eccles. 12. 10. Mat. 15. 9. 3. They are the private works of men : contrary to 1 Cor. 12. 7. 8. 2 Pet. 1. 20. 4. They are the private openings or interpretations of the prophesies of scripture , contrary to 2 Pet. 1. 20. 5. They contradict the gifts bestowed by Christ upon the church for the work of the ministerie : contrary to Eph. 4. 8. 11. 12. Act. 2. 4. Joh. 16. 7. 6. They derogate from the vertue of Christs ascention , and dignity of his kingdom : contrary to Ephe. 4. 8. 7. They blemish Christs bountie to and care of his church , contrarie to Ioh. 14. 16. 18. 26. 8. They disgrace the spirit of God , setting him to schole : contrarie to 1 Ioh. 2. 27. 9. They bring into the church a strange ministration , contrarie to 1 Cor. 12. 5. and so a new part of the Gospel or covenant , contrarie to Gal. 3. 15. 10. They do not manifest the spirit which cometh from within , but the letter which cometh from without 2 Cor. 3. 6. Therfore they are not spiritual worship , Joh. 4 , 24. with 2 Cor. 3. 17. Gal. 5. 1. and 4. 31. Indeed if lyes may goe for arguments , here is a heap . What Lucian could have written more reprochfully & slanderously of the holy scriptures ? Cannot the written word and spirit of God , his scriptures and his gifts to open them , stand togither : but one must contradict , stint , quench , and disgrace another ? Did Christ when * he took the book , read the text , and after spake from the same to the people : did he herein contradict his own gifts , blemish his own boūtie , stint or quench the spirit in him ? or did the church of Israel contradict Gods gifts or quench his spirit , when they preached & read the law “ every sabbath : Or did the churches of Colosse , Thessalonica &c. run into any of these evils , by † reading the scriptures in the publik assemblies ? Nay rather this adversary would quench the spirit , by abolishing the scriptures out of Gods worship : seeing Gods spirit is in his scriptures , and he having commanded them to be written , commandeth also him that hath an ear , to hear what in them * the spirit speaketh to the churches . Let him not here cavil that he meaneth these things of translations onely ; for vve have heard before , hovv even the original scriptures are also by him shut out of Gods vvorship ; and the reading of them so , condemned for ministration of the letter , Iudaisme & Antichristian . But some special things here are , vvhich he seemeth to bend at translations onely : as that they are not the pure word of God , and so cōtrary to Eccles. 12. 10. Math. 15. 9. So then belike , vvhen vve read the lavves of God , * thou shalt not kil ; thou shalt not steal ; honour thy father and thy mother : or any other scriptures hovv faythfully soever translated into English ; vve read not the pure word of God ; nor as Solomon sayth , † an upright writing , the words of truth : but we do that which Christ blamed the Pharisees for , Matth. 15. 9. worship God in vain , teaching doctrines the precepts of men . Loe here some part of the deepnes of Satan , who would perswade that the pure word of God , the upright writing , the words of truth , cannot be written in English ; no nor spoken ; for if they may be spoken , they may be written : but vvhatsoevet is written , ( & by consequent spoken ) of us in our mother tongue , is a doctrine and precept of men . For thus farr reacheth this impious argument . Againe wher he calleth them private works of men , private openings or interpretations of prophesies , contrarie to 1 Corin. 12. 7. 8. 2 Pet 1. 20. hee injureth the holy scriptures : for the work or thing it self is Gods , whosoever hath written , printed or translated it . The decree of King Ahashverosh , when it was translated and published * into al the provinces after every peoples language , was it a private decree of him that translated or wrote it ? If M. Smyth should translate Paules Epistles , or Iohns Revelation ; should we esteeme them M. Smyths epistles or visions ? These be but delusions to make the work his , or of the nature of him , that is but the interpreter or oversetter of the same . Neyther do the scriptures by him alleaged , speak ought against trāslations ; for God having given to his church , the “ scriptures for a a ground of their fayth ; and * gracious gifts unto men for opening and applying the scriptures : the one of these destroyeth not the other , but they confirm ech other . And Peter “ speaketh not of translation or grammatical interpretation of a tongue , caled † hermencia : which even an infidel that wanteth Gods spirit , yet having skil in the tongues , can do : but he speaketh of a theological resolution , opening and applying of the prophesies , called of him epilusis , which may be done without any translating at al , as Christ * unlosed or expounded his owne parables , Mark. 4. 34. and as Ioseph “ opened or expounded the dreames told unto him . Thus see we the weaknes of these reasons ; and how M. Smyth quoteth many scriptures to prove things that we al hold : as that it is syn to quench the spirit , to contradict Gods gifts &c. but for that which we deney , namely , that in reading the scriptures we commit these evils ; this be wil have taken for granted : thinking belike his readers wil be so simple , that if any one propositiō of an argument be proved , the whol shal be yealded unto . How then dooth he reason against us in vain , seing in his arguments there † remayns but leasing ? The last of his reasons followeth . Children may read a translation perfectly wel : but children cannot perform any part of spiritual worship : therfore reading a translation is no part of spiritual worship . The second proposition is untrue , and injurious to al the children of God ; and the Divil it seemeth put in his hart to write this , as a ground of his anabaptisme , wherunto soon after he drew him ; and now hath moved him to write further , that † an infant is no more capable of baptisme then is any unreasonable or unsensible creature ; thus evil men and deceyvers waxe worse and worse , * deceiving and being deceived . Is not the praysing of God , a part of his worship ? & Christ when the children cryed Hosanna in the temple , defended their fact against cavilling Iewes , by this , that out of the mouth of babes and fuklings , God had made perfit the prayse . Mat. 21. 15. 16. Wherfore this one testimonie is ynough to confute and “ stil this enemie and avenger , whom Satan useth to wreak his teen upon the children and infants of the Lord. But I wil turne his owne weapon against him thus . Mr. Sm. anabaptised himself with water : but a child could have done the like unto himself , who cannot performe any part of spirituall worship : therefore Mr. Sm. anabaptising himself with water , did no part of spirituall worship : and consequently it was carnal worship , and service of the Divil . If he answer , that a child though he could cast water on himself , & utter such words as he heard Mr. Sm. speak withal ; yet could he not preach or open the covenant as Mr. Sm. did : I answer in like manner , though children may read the scriptures perfectly wel ; yet can they not preach nor open the covenant as did the Preists and Levits , Nehem. 8. 8. and as Christ himself did when he read in the synagogue , Luk. 4. Wherefore reading and preaching being joyned togither , as baptising with water & preaching : he that condemns the one outward action because a child can doe it , condemneth also the other by the like reason . And Mr. Sm. having thus written of children , and doon to himself ; the babes and sucklings whose soules he would murder by depriving them of the covenant promise and visible seal of salvation in the Church ; shal rise up in judgment & shall condemn him in the day of Christ. Objections for translations answered and mainteyned . After this Mr. Sm. “ professeth to answer objections for translations : where he taketh his libertie to make the objectiōs , as liked him best to answer , thus . Rom. 4. 3. What saith the scripture , and then followeth the Septuagints translation . Heb. 3. 7. The holy Ghost sayth ; and then folow the words of the Lxx. translation : and it is observed that the Apostles quote the words of the seventies translation not onely where they expound the meaning of the holy Ghost , as Heb. 10. 5. Rom. 4. 3. where the Apostles follow the Lxx. not the Hebrue , but also in their devises besides the original ; as in the second Cainan , Luk. 3. 36. 37. and in the 75. persons of Iaakobs familie , Act. 7. 14. whereas there is but one Cainan and 70. persons in the Hebrue . If the originals themselves are not to be vsed as helps in time of spiritual worship , as hath been proved ; then this obiection is of no force for translations . But the original scriptures are to be used in Gods publike worship , by such as understand them ; as hath ben proved : therfore this answer is of no force against translations . Secondly , if it were of force to bring translations to be read in time of worship , it were available thus far even to bring in to the time of worship , the errors of the translations . &c. Whatsoever the Scripture & holy Ghost sayth , may be read & heard in Gods publik worship ordinarily ; as before hath been manifested : Errors by Gods special extraordinary dispensatiō admitted because of mens infirmities ; as Cainan in Lukes genealogie , &c. are not of vs ordinarily to be followed ; that we should put new persons into genealogies , no more then we may dispense ordinarily with Gods commaundements , because himself dispensed with the Iewes for * putting away their wives , for having many wives , and the like ; which he suffred † for the hardnes of their harts . The holy Ghost needeth not the lies of men to work his work , nor the seventies errors to support the faith of Theophilus and the Graecians . &c. And it is one thing by connivencie to passe by syn , as was the tolleration of polygamie , divorce and usurie , see Act. 17. 30. another thing to translate errors from a translation into the original , which is to approve them , and this whosoever affirmeth , speaketh litle lesse then blasphemie . Thirdly , therfore as Antichrist hath polluted al Gods ordinances , so hath he violated the original scriptures ; and therfore one Cainan must be put out , for some ancient copies have it not : and for 75. there must be seventy al : pente for pantes : as Rom. 12. 11. kairo kurio , and it is possible easily to mistake so smal a matter , in copying out any thing , as experience teacheth . Thus Mr. Sm. is slipt aside from translations , to quarrel with the original scriptures and correct them : where ( though I would not folow his wanderings ) I observ breefly these things . 1. He restreyneth , the holy Ghost from using the seventies errors ( bearing with mens weaknes : ) because he needeth them not : why doth he not also restreyne God from suffering divorce & many wives to one man in Israel , seing he needed not thus to have done then , more then now ? Shal man limit the holy Ghost , to doe no more then he needeth ? 2. He mismatcheth Gods passing by the syn of hethens idolatrie , Act. 17. 30. with Gods † permission of divorce and * polygamie in his law , and putting in Cainan in Luk. 3. The first was horrible syn in al that did it , though God overlooked it upon their repentance : the latter not so , but tolerable ; and Lukes naming of Cainan , holy . 3 He injurieth Luke , intimating as if he put errors from a translation into the original ; indeed he had so done , if from the Lxx. he had put it into Moses Hebrue ; which was farr from him . But he onely sets it downe out of a common known & received record , into the genealogie which he wrote ; which al would allow of , & by which they would trie Lukes writing : where the leaving of it out , mought have caused much strife . And if God so bare with the Iewes hardnes of old : what mouth can blame him for bearing with the weaknes both of Iewes and Gentiles here ? Nay rather his mercy is to be magnified for writing his word so : as the weak mought not stumble or fal away , the froward mought not cavil . For had the Apostles written in Hebrue , the Grekes ( & of liklihood many Iewes ) ▪ could not have vnderstood : and if they should have ordinarily left the common translatiō , not onely the Gentiles mought have made doubt , but the Iewes would have taken occasion to speak evil . For they reverenced the labours of the 70 ▪ greatly , and would suffer no other translatiō . God therefore who turneth al things to his glorie turned this his indulgence , to the praise of his grace . 4 Mr. Sm. hazardeth the credit of the original scriptures , and of al mens faith ; in saying Antichrist hath violated them , as he hath polluted al Gods ordinances . It is not good , they say , to bely the Divil : & Antichrist hath evil ynough upon him though he be not charged with violating the originals , which this accuser wil not easily prove . No doubt but copiers , and writers might fail , and did mistake ; and some thinking to mend the new testament by the old , or Luke by Matthew , might make it worse ; which by true copies may be amended . So faults are in translations through ignorance or oversight . But this point if it were true , helpeth translatiōs and hurteth them not . For if the originals be violated , and yet are not for the faults to be rejected : so translations may be violated , & the errors in the part , are no cause to reject the whole . 5 He presumeth to put Cainan out , because it is not in some ancient copies : these some I take it wil prove but one , which Beza mentioneth : and if the credit of it wil countervayl al others in Cainan , it must do the like also in a great part of the genealogie beside ; † varying al the names from Ioseph up to David , according to Matthewes narration : which is to overthrow Lukes purpose quite . For he deduceth Christ from Nathan his father in the flesh ; and not from the brother Solomon , his father but in the kingdom , as Matthew dooth . But to change pente five , into pantes all , Act. 7 , 14. without warrant of any Greek copie at al , is too much boldnes ; & cannot be be born out by kurio & kairo , where many copies are for a ground . If men that perceive not the counsel of God in penning his word , shal presumptuously change it according to their owne conceipt : we shal have nothing left sound or uncorrupt . Rather , if men be ignorant , let them † lay their hand on their mouth . Lastly ( sayth he ) fully to answer the obiection whatsoever is good in the LXX translation , was taken out of the new testament , and ancient fathers of the Greek church . For it is manifest by histories that the LXX translation is lost , and this that goeth under the name of the LXX is a patcherie made out of ancient writings : & therfore the holy Ghost doth not aim at the LXX . translation at al , as is imported in the obiection . This is not fully but foolishly to answer : for though the LXX . trans . were now lost , yet was it not lost in the Apostles dayes , nay ther was no other but that known in the world ; & to reason because we have it not now , therfore they then aimed not at it at al , is without reason or colour of truth . Neyther doth M. Smyth manifest by histories that the Seventies translation is now lost : rather the translations of Aquila , Symmachus , Theodotio , & others that synce the Apostles time set over the bible in Greek , these al are lost , save some peeces of them ; and that which we have , is for the body of it the Seventies , though much corrupted with words and sentences of the other . And this Hieroms translation of the prophets from the Septuagint , and his commentarie citing the divers versions of Aquila , Symmachus &c. sheweth : and the best Greek bibles now extant , that have varias lectiones do confirm the same . Neyther if al were granted which he would , is the objection fully answered : for the Apostles * cite the scriptures in Greek , which the prophets wrote in Hebrue ; eyther therfore they aymed at the Septuagint or translated it themselves . Whereupon it followeth that the Hebrue text set over into Greek , is the scripture of God stil , and speech of the holy ghost . Or ( if M. Smyths divinitie had then been known , ) the unbeleeving Iewes mought have alleged , that Paul proved not his doctrine by canonical scripture , but by apocryphal writings , that were equally humane with the Rabbines commentaries in respect of the matter : and in respect of the letter & language , worse . There were Greeks and Graecians , Hellenes and Hellenistai , Rom. 1. 16. Act. 6. 1. The Greeks were so by progenie and blood , the Graecians or Hellenists were Iewes by progenie , borne in Grecia . Therfore Paul calleth himself an Hebrue of the Hebrues . Phil. 3 , 5. These Graecians had forgotten their language , and spake Greek onely ; and in their synagogues had the Greek translation read unto them : and the Apostles coming into their synagogues approved that act : and so it followeth , that reading translations is lawful in worship . The distinction of Greeks and Grecians , is vain ( sayth M. Sm. ) as appeareth by these places compared , Act. 21. 39. & 18. 2. 24. with Act. 6. 1. Phil. 3. 5. For Paul was born at Tarsus in Cilicia , and Aquila at Pontus , and Apollos at Alexandria : and yet are al called Jewes , not Hellenists or Graecians . And Act. 6. 1. The Hellenists murmured against the Hebrues : the Hellenists did understand their own tongue , and had not forgotten their own language . This reason of Greeks and Grecians , was propounded not as certain , but as probable : because humane writers testifyed it , and in the scriptures , some footsteps onely mought be seen . That there is a distinction in scripture of Hellenes Greeks , & Hellenists Greekists or Graecians ; al that have eyes to see , and judgment in the tongue , may read : though in our English this difference is not alwayes manifested . For ordinarily they of that nation are called Hellenes Greeks . Ioh. 12. 20. Act. 16. 1. & 18. 17. and 21. 28. Rom. 1. 14. and often in that and his other Epistles . Hellenists or Grecians are mentioned Act. 6 , 1. and 9. 29 , & 11. 20. The Hellenes or Greeks are usually set against Iewes ; as Act. 14. 1. & 18. 4. and 19. 10. and 20. 21. Rom. 1. 16. and 2. 9. 10. and 3. 9. and 10. 12. 1 Cor. 1. 24. and 10. 32. and so in other places ▪ The Hellenists or Grecians , are set against Hebrues , Act. 6. 1. The Hellenists were such as spake Greek ; for Hellenisti is the Greek tongue , Act. 21. 37. as Ebraisti is the Ebrue tongue , Iohn . 19. 20. Al Hellenes or Greeks could their own language ; but many of other nations could speak it also , it being spread over al ; and such were called not Hellenes but Hellenists ; as a Latine is he that is born in Latium , or of that blood ; but a Latinist is he that can speak Latine , what country man soever . That the Iewes were dispersed in the Greek nations , we may read al over the historie : for there were synagogues of Iewes at Salamis , Act. 13. 5. at Antioch of Pisidia : Act 13. 14 : at Iconium , Act. 14. 1. at Thessalonica , Act. 17. 1. at Beraea , Act. 17. 10. at Athens , Act. 17. 16. 17. at Corinth , Act. 18. 14. at Ephesus , Act. 18. 19. and other places . Their dispersion among the gentiles , had been about 300 yeres : for Ptolomee Lagi King of Aegypt , surprising Ierusalem unawares , caryed many thowsands of them captives , and made them freemen of Alexandria upon their oath of fealtie ; and after them many Iewes went thither of their own accord , as † Iosephus witnesseth . And his son Ptolomee Philadelphus who procured the bible to be turned into Greek ; willing to gratifie the Iewes , made free six skore thowsand of their captives : who remayning in those parts , not onely learned Greek , but forgat Hebrue , as may evidētly be gathered by Ben Sirachs words in his prologue before his fathers book , among our Apocrypha , caled Ecclesiasticus . For * he in the dayes of Ptolomee Euergetes , ( who reigned next to Philadelphus ) turned his Fathers Hebrue work into Greek , that they which remayned in banishment ( as he sayth ) and were desirous to learn , might apply themselves to good manners , and live according to the law . This paynes he might hav spared if his people al , could hav understood Hebrue . Also under the tyran Antiochus , the Iewes troubles & dispersiō cōtinued & increased , as the book of Machabees witnesseth : and so th'Apostles in their dayes found synagogues of the Ievves , almost in al cities of the Gentiles , as before is shevved . Novv vvho knovveth not , that farr fevver yeres then three hūdred in a strange land , vvil make a people , specially in bondage and affliction , forget their native speech : vvherfore as it is most probable , that many Ievves had forgot Hebrue , so is it almost incredible , that al should keep it , in such estate ; vvhen also they maried vvith the gentiles , as Timothees mother is a president . Acts. 16. 1. Moreover in Ierusalem it self it may be probably gathered they knevv & spake Greek . For when Paul spake once in Hebrue to them , it it is noted how the people kept the more silence . See Act. 22. 1. 2. and 21. 37. 38. 39. 40. And very learned Iewes , as Philo of Alexandria , who lived in the Apostles dayes , and Josephus , wrote eloquently their works in Greek , having smal skill in Hebrue , as by their writings may be gathered . Now for M. Smyths exception , that Paul , Aquila , & Apollos , are called Iewes not Hellenists : it is nothing to the matter : for I grant , al were called Iewes but not al Hebrues : and in Act. 6 , 1. not Iewes , but Ebrues ar murmured against by the Hellenists , that is , by such as spake Greek . Wherfore , he needed not have caled the distinction vain , when himself can make but such an emptie ansvver . Neyther sheweth he any reason at al , why Paul reckoning up his privileges ( Phil. 3 , 5. ) caleth himself an Ebrue of the Ebrues : & unlesse it be for the language I can shew none sufficient . For thus I mind his speech ; by kindred or stock in general , he was of Israel by tribe in particular he was of Beniamin ; by language an Ebrue ; by profession of law or religion , a Pharisee ; for zele , a persecutor of the contrary ; and for legal righteousnes , unrebukeable . Herein the Gr. Scholiast agreeth with me , saying that the name Ebrue is added pros ●●desin tés Ebraidos glosses , for his skil in the Ebrue tongue . The like he speaketh of himself 2 Cor. 11. 22 , They are Ebrues , so am J , they are Israelites , so am J , they are Abrahams seed , so am J. It is wel known this people had much to boast of for their stock of Israel , famous throughout al the bible ; likeweise of Abraham † they boasted because of Gods * covenant with him , and of his fatherhood . But of Heber they had nothing to rejoyce more then of other patriarchs , save for the language onely , which was derived from him to Abraham the “ Hebrue , and so to his posteritie , til in dispersion it was lost of some , by others reteyned . And if it be excepted that Paul was born at Tarsus in Cilicia , and therfore an Hellenist as others there : I answer , though there he was born , yet his bringing up was in † Ierusalem at the feet of Doctor Gamaleel , where he learned both the language and law of the Pharisees ; and therfore boasted to be an Ebrue as wel as any other . And for those whom the scripture calleth Hellenists or Greekists they seem to be no other but Iewes . For they that were Proselytes or converts among the Hethen , are called Hellenes Greeks ; as Iohn . 12. 20. ther were * Greeks among them , that came up to worship at the feast . Neyther know I why a Greek converted to Iudaisme should hav the name of a Greekist , seeing by his conversion , he doth more degenerate from Greekisme ; so that the name were unfit . Besides , in Act. 2. 10. & 13. 43. such converted strangers , are called Prosclytes not Hellenists . Likevveise vvhen Paul nevvly converted , disputed in Ierusalem vvith the Hellenists , and they vvent about to slay him , Act. 9. 29. this their cariage argueth that they vvere Ievves , for it is not like that strangers vvould have been so busie in that place . Also the Hellenists in Antiochia Act. 11. 20. seem to be Ievves there , to vvhom the Gospel vvas first preached ; as in the vvords immediatly “ before is noted , they preached to no man , but to the Iewes onely : after that , † many moe vvere converted there dayly : & vvhen the gentiles of the city had received the fayth , they vvere troubled * concerning circumcision , ( this fel out about 7. yeares after the conversion of the Hellenists , Act. 11 ) and then the church at Ierusalem vvriting therof , directed their letters † to the brethren of the Gentiles in Antiochia : al vvhich do persvvade that the Hellenists first spoken of vvere Ievves . Hereuppon I conclude , that the testimonie of learned men , “ recording hovv the Hellenists vvere dispersed Ievves , that used the Greek bibles in their synagogues ; hath more probabilitie , if not certainty to be true , even by the scripture ; then M. Smyths sleight ansvver can turn avvay . But he hath yet more to speak . A. Secondly ( sayth he ) it cannot be proved by scriptures , that the Hellenists had the Gr. transl . read in the synagogues : it is manifestly otherweise by the reasons used before against the translation of the LXX . R. Those reasons were rather calumnies ; & I have before refuted thē , shewing that no such syn can be proved upō the Sep. fortheir trāsl . That the Greek bible was read among the Hellenists , the point before handled giveth light ; & I leave it to the judgment of the wise Further I answer , that seing by scripture we learne that not Iewes onely but † Greeks were present in the synagogues ; it cannot be thought that the Lectures there were in Hebrue ; which the Iewes themselves in liklihood , the Greeks of certainety , could not understand . Thirdly ( sayth M. S. ) the worship of God properly so called of the whol Church of the Iewes was performed in the holy place at Ierusalem , and so that which was performed in the synagogue was not properly the worship of the whol Church of the Iewes : but was of that nature that passed between Christ and the Doctors in the temple Luk. 2. 46. with Act. 17. 2. Neyther is that which we performe in our assemblies , the worship of the whol church of the Christians , but of our own particular Church : neyther is our reading the scriptures , the worship of God properly so called : as before I have manifested . So in the mans answer , lodgeth guile and deceit . Though all the Iewes worshiped at the temple thrise in the year , yet followeth it not thereupon they had no proper worship in their synagogues . For Mr. Smyth himselfe counteth prophesie or preaching , proper worship ; and this was in their synagogues . Againe Prayer & thanksgiving is worship properly ; & this they did other where then in the temple as appeareth Act. 16. 13. Neyther can we think of our godly forefathers ( howsoever Mr. Sm. counteth them a carnal Church , ) that they would read and preach the word , and not pray in their synagogues ; yea their synagogues were caled Oratories or prayer howses ; as witnesseth Philo a Iew in the Apostles age , who complayning of the outrage offred in Alexandria ( the city wher he lived ) by throwing downe the synagogues * caleth them Proseuchas Oratories ; and mentioneth also the synagogues of Rome , by the same name . Fourthly ( sayth M. Sm. ) if the Hellenists read the seventies translation as a part of their proper worship having forgotten their own language , therin were committed these synns : 1. Forgetting their tongue , one part of the ceremoniall law . Nehem. 13. 24. 2. Instituting worship in a common tongue , which was as unlawful as sacrificing a dog . 3. Therefore it was false worship ; as it was to sacrifice an unclean beast Proper worship is an vnproper term wherwith Mr. S. would cloke his error , before discovered . But had it been proper worship , yet this mans charge of them were both unproper and untrue . For , although the willing neglect and forgetting of their Hebrue , was syn : yet the constreyned losse of it was not syn . The scripture alleged mought have taught him this ; for † they that of lust maried strange wives , which taught their children Azotik or Ashdod speech , are justly blamed by the holy Ghost : but were any blamed for speaking Babels tongue , where they had been prisoners neer 70. yeares ? nay Ezra and Daniel wrote a great parte of their books in Babylons language , and not in Hebrue . And if it had been such a breach of the ceremonial law as is intimated ; Daniel and his brethren who refused the * King of Babels diet , would also have refused his language , which they did not at al. The comparison of sacrificing a dog is odious : for mought not converted strangers pray and praise God in their mother tongues ; did God abhorr their languages , as doggs in sacrifice ? Daniel was skilful both in Sions tongue and Babels : and he writing his book , recordeth his own prayer and thanksgiving in Babylons language ; Dan. 2. 20. — 23. He that should have condemned this for false worship : the godly Iewes would have counted him a dog . The Prophets warned Israel of the Idols of Babel , but never of their tongue : nay Ieremie in Canaan , teacheth the people in the Chaldee tongue , how they should answer and confute Idolaters . Ier. 10. 11. And what wil this calumniator of the saints , say of Christ himselfe , who prayed on the crosse , “ Eloi Eloi lamma sabachthani , which was Syriak not ▪ Hebrue , though the scripture which he had reference unto , Psal. 22. 1 , was Hebrue . And ordinarily he spake Syriak , as by † Ephphatha , Talitha coumi and other like words recorded by the Evangelists , may be probably gathered . Lastly ( sayth M. Sm. ) if they read the seventies translation , and the Apostles came in & heard : it followeth not they did allow it , as a part of the worship of the new testament , any more then circumcision &c. First this followeth , that the bible translated , is the bible stil ; and Moses turned into Greek , is Moses stil : for it is not sayd that apocryphal humane writings were read in the Synagogues , but the † law and the prophets . So it proveth the question , that the scriptures in our mother tongue , are divine writings , not humane , as M. Sm. avoucheth . Hereuppon it wil folow undenyablie , that they are to be read in al Christian churches now , as then in Israel : and not as profane & apocryphal , to be quite thrust out of Gods worship . The Apostles shewed an end * of circumcision , and like legal shadowes : but never any end or ceasing or reading the scriptures : nay they shew plainly the contrary . 2 Pet , 1 , 19 , 2 Tim. 3 , 15 , 16 , 17. 1 Thes. 5 , 27. Deut. 31. 12. The reasons that are alleged for reading the law are perpetual , and therfore the law of reading is perpetual : the moral reasons are , hearing , learning , fearing God , and keeping his lawes . Hereunto M. Smyth answereth : First the law of reading is not moral in the particular act , but in the equitie , for it was commanded to be doon but once in seven yeare , at the feast of tabernacles , Deut. 31. 10. and if it had been moral in the particular act , it should have been from the beginning , which was not so , seing it began with Moses , and it should continue after the end of the world , for moralities indure for ever : but books and so reading of books shal perish . Men should “ kisse the lips of him that answereth upright words : but our adversary answereth with a froward mouth . He sayth the law was commanded to be read but once in seven year : these words , but once , are not of the law , but of his own false comment . There was a special charge to read the book then , in the eares of al togither ; not intending to read it but then . For every sabbath , was to be † sanctified , and al things are sanctified by the word and prayer ; and Israel knew this wel , and therfore from old tyme read the word in the synagogues * every sabbath ; and our Lord Christ “ accompanied thē in this holy work ; so that he is more then Sadducean blind , which sayth it was commanded to be doon but once in seven year . No better is the next plea , that because writing & reading began with Moses & was not frō the beginning of the world , therfore the law of reading is not perpetual , neither bindeth us now : a Familist or Atheist may likewise say , baptisme or the Lords supper in the particular outward act , is not to cōtinue til the worlds end , because it was not from the beginning , but began with Christ. A practise commanded of God , at what time soever ; is to continue til by him it be repeled , which reading the scriptures never was , but repeted and augmented , by the Apostles writings . Like vanitie is in the reason following : books and reading of books shal perish , when the world is at an end : therefore now whiles the world continueth , we are not bound to read Gods book . Mought he not have made these reasons against preaching the word , and other ordinances of God , as wel as against reading ; seeing these shal cease also at the end of the world . But a * seduced hart hath deceived this man , that he cannot deliver his sowl , nor say , Js there not a lye in my right hand ? Secondly ( sayth he ) it is moral in the equity , that is , that al meanes must be used to attayn the knowledge of the truth , wherof reading is a principal : and yet hence it followeth not , that reading is eyther part or meanes of spiritual worship : For books are things meerly artificial , as are pictures and images , Gen. 4. 22. Here again the enemie is caught in the snare of his own tongue : for if reading Gods law be a principal mean to attayn the knowledge of the truth now , as it was in Israel , Deut. 31. 12. and so moral & perpetual : then his former cavils against the objection , may be cast as dung upon his own face . Then do we wel to read Gods word in our church , for that end : and M. Sm. hath doon wickedly for it to blame us , and charge us with idolatrie . To hide this his shame , he runs into his old borough , that it is no part or meanes of spirituall worship ; but out of this he hath been often hunted before : and wee are sure that observing it according to Gods wil , we worship & serv God in spirit and truth , as wel in this as in other like ordinances of the gospel . His matching of books with Tubal-cains craft ( Gen. 4. 22. ) & images , sheweth how his idol error hath † shut his eyes that he cannot see , his hart that he cannot understand . For in holy scriptures ( wherof we speak ) the mynd of God is made known unto us , and his spirit † is in them , so as when we read in the book of Moses , we read that which is spoken to us of God ; as the Evangelists * in playn words teach us : whereas in handicrafts we see or enjoy but the fruit of mans wit and skil ; and an image without life , is the “ teacher of lyes . Such impious comparisons seem rather to come from Tubal-cains forge , then from any possessed with the spirit of God. Reading the law was performed in the Synagogue , and not tyed to the temple : an argument that reading is not ceremonial but moral , for no part of ceremonial worship was performed from the tabernacle or temple . This objection with the reason , ( I think ) was never so made of any , but by M. Smyth himself . It is true that reading was not tyed to the temple ; it is true also ( though this argument thus framed , hardly proveth it ) that reading is not ceremonial . The last branch is untrue , for some ceremonies or figurative services were performed out of the temple . His answers to this obiection , are for the most part true , being wel understood : but in part false , when by the way he denyeth reading the law to be a moral action ; wherof he giveth no reason at al : and the thing is handled before . Luk 4. 16. Christ stood up to read and redd his text , and then preached out of it . Now his actions are our instructions : and therefore we are to read words out of a book , in time of preaching or prophesying . This objection M. Smyth hath falsified : it was never thus pressed by us for translations , whereof now we treat : but thus . Luke reporteth that Christ “ read where it was written The spirit of the Lord is upon me &c. This text Luke setteth down in Greek , which Esaias wrote in Hebrue ; whereupon it followeth , that the scripture translated into an other language , is the same scripture stil for the substance of it , though the letter and language differ , and is not an apocryphal humane vvriting , and so an idol in Gods vvorship , as Mr. Smyth blasphemed . Els , Luke and the new testament cannot be defended against Ievves that should cavil , hovv humane apocryphal vvritings , are cited for divine and canonical . Thvs serveth it to prove the reading of translated scriptures , by necessary consequence : and that vve are not bound to bring the book of the law and prophets in Hebrue when we vvould read to the people , and so interpret or read mentally out of it , as M. Smyth then dreamed : though since he is fallen to forbid the Original Hebrue also , in Gods vvorship , as vve have heard before . But M. S. finding ( as seemeth ) this objection too heavie for him , hath sought to change it , as he could best make ansvver : vvhich is thus . First in that it was doon in the synagogue by Christ which was neither Priest nor Levite , it is an argument that it was no proper part of the worship of the old Testament , but of that nature as was the exercise performed by Christ and the doctors in the temple , so that reading most properly is searching the scripture , which is not worship . Christ as his custome was , ( sayth * the scripture ) went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day , and stood up to read : and after speaking from the scripture which he had read , “ al bare him witnesse , and wōdred at the gracious words , which proceeded out of his mouth . He † sate dayly teaching in the temple and in the synagogues among the people . But al this reading and teaching : vvas no proper part of the worship of the old testament , ( vvith M. Smyth ) because he was neither Preist nor Levite . Hovvbeit , * before he vvould needs persvvade us by a mystical interpretation , that Christ having by the use of the book fulfilled the law of reading , he shut the book , to signifie that the ceremonie of book-worship was now exspired . So svveet an accord & harmonie is in his vvriting . Wel , Christs action here is excluded from being a part of Gods vvorship . But M. Smyth though he vvere neyther Priest nor Levite of the old testament , nor Apostle , Prophet , Evangelist , Pastor nor teacher , no nor member of the church of the nevv testament , ( he and his followers having dischurched themselves and dissolved their communion ; ) yet he in that estate , preached , and anabaptised himself , and then anabaptised others : and this in him was the worship of God , or els of the divil , properly so caled . And hath not this man behaved himself like a proud Korah , that without al office would presume to do these things which he counteth proper worship ; and yet censureth Christs action in reading & preaching of the word to be no proper part of worship , because he was neyther Preist nor Levite ? Shal the word out of Christs mouth , read and applied with al grace of the spirit ( which he had without measure ) be no proper part of Gods worship ; and shal the word which Mr. Smyth uttereth out of his hart , be proper worship ? And of what nature may we think , was that exercise performed by Christ and the Doctors in the temple ? was it none of Gods worship ? He was I am sure “ in his fathers busines , among the teachers of the word , whom he heard , whom he asked , whom he answered with such understanding as astonied al that heard him . If M. Smyth esteme his own teaching or prophesying used in his synagogue to be the worship of God ; and this of Christ and the teachers of Israel in the temple , to be not his worship : he is worthy of al true Christians , to be holden Anathema . But reading ( sayth he ) is serching the scriptures , which is not worship . But reading ( say I ) as Christ now did , is proclayming the word of God unto the people : and if preaching be worship , reading in this sort is worship : not proskunesis , supplication or prostrating unto God : but latreia † a worship or service of God in the spirit , in the gospel ; as before hath been manifested . Secondly ( sayth M. Smyth ) Christ had the Originals the Hebrue text of Esay the Prophet , and read or interpreted out of it : for it is doubtful whither he uttered the Hebrue words , or spake the sense of the Hebrue in the Syriak dialect , and therefore from hence reading a translation cannot be concluded , but eyther reading or interpreting the Originals . How it maketh for translations , I shewed before against M. Smyths frawd : and to that we have no answer , but by-matters brought as clowds to darken the light . And if we had alleged this for the Originals , yet Mr. Smyth would not have allowed it , as before hath been shewed . He doubteth whither Christ spake in Syriak or not : but if he so did , & preached or prophesied in that common language , ( as before I have shewed it most likely , ) and preaching or prophesying be properly worship ; and instituting worship in a common tongue , Be as unlawful as sacrificing a dog , as M. Smyth before † affirmed : wil not he be found a blasphemer of Christ , as one that speaks not by the spirit of God , * calling Iesus execrable ? Thirdly ( sayth he ) hence cannot be concluded that manner of preaching now used , that a man shal take his text , and then divide it into parts , analysing it rhetorically and logically , collecting doctrines and uses from every member , &c. of his text , al this while he hauing his book before his eye , to help him at al assayes : a thing whereof I am assured the holy scripture yeeldeth no warrant that it may be counted a part of spiritual worship . For though the scripture may be so handled , and that for very profitable use ; yet that is rather a scholastical lecture , then an Ecclesiastical worship , it is rather an inquisition and serching of the holy spirits intent and purpose then prophesying If the scriptures may be so handled , and that for very profitable use : surely Mr. Smyths schisme , and charge of idolatrie layd upon us , had very unprofitable use , and wicked end . For his owne conscience can testifie for us , if it be not feared ; that we never pleaded for other use of the scriptures , then was in Israel , where Christ † read the text , and after taught from and applyed it ; where the * law was read , the sense given , and the people caused to understand the reading ; where “ lectures were of the law & prophets in their synagogues every sabbath ; and other such like exercises . But because we did thus out of our translated English bibles ( of him called apocrypha , ) he accused us of idol-latrie , that is the worship or service of idols ; we mainteyned it to be theo-latrie , that is , the worship or service of God , because it was Gods word , not mans , though written in English. This point is now sought to be shifted off , and a nue question made , whither reading the scriptures in the Church may be caled worship : which I have cleared before . His sophistical distinction of scholastical lecture , and ecclesiastical worship ; we heard not of til now ; and it serveth him in no stead : for every such lecture in the Church to Christs scholars , is the latreia or service of God , not of Idols ; and is a manifestation of the holy spirits intent , as of old was in prophesying . The teacher most properly doth then inquire & serch , when he prepareth himselfe privatly by reading , studie and meditation , to expound the scriptures in publik . Were not the voices of the Prophets in Israel , a manifestation of the spirits intent ? But when they were read in the synagogues , their * voices were heard , as the scripture teacheth ; Act. 13. 27. Lastly ( sayth M. S. ) if we must needs be tied to this example of Christ , ( which J see no reason for , seeing reading was of the old testament , ) then the example of Christ shall bind also thus farr , as that the book shal be layd aside , so soon as the text is read , and the book that is used , shal be the originals , which is nothing for vocal but for mental reading , or for interpreting , which I never have thought to contradict . &c. No man that I know , tieth to follow this particular example . We doubt not but men may teach , without any book . But that it is lawful by Christs example here , to read , open and apply the scriptures ; as by other examples of him also , to preach without reading . The mayn thing is left , and new questions set on foot . We know wel , he at first contradicted not mental reading ( as he calleth it ) or interpreting out of the originals though now he writeth against the use of the originals also , as before we have seen : so fast he runns on in error . His cōceipt of mental reading , as it hath no groūd frō Christ here , nor any prophet or Apostle , to be the ordinary way of reading or interpreting scripture : so mind we it to be a far more vncertayn and erroneous course ; let the man make as many Querees after it , as he will. Having answered these few objections , as we see ; he * afterwards questioneth whither the hearers may have their translations or the originals to read or search in time of prophesie . Which he deneyeth . Of this point , though it was not controverted between us , yet I wil speak what I mind about it . Not condemning it , as dooth he ; nor iustifying it , as it is abused by some ; but shewing the mean , which I take to be best . His first reason is ; that the Prophets and Apostles wrote books , but never divided them into chapters or verses , Henry Stephen first made the verses of the N. Testament : whereupon he concludeth that the hearers could not serch their bookes in time of hearing . I deney the consequence ; for in reading the law & expounding it , comparing words with that which went before and after ; the hearers mought serch and see ; though it were with more difficultie . Secondly the Hebrue bibles that we have , are all divided into chapters and verses ; as also into other sections , noting where the lecture of the law began and ended , and the lecture of the Prophets answerable to it . Whither the first writers did this , or the Church after them , I wil not dispute ; but that thus they might doe , I make no doubt : For God hath left to the discretiō of the Church and Ministers , what quantitie of scripture to read and teach of . And this was the practise in th' Apostles dayes ; for it was not possible that every sabbathall the law and prophets should be read over : & the Hebrue letters and marginall notes , are sufficient records of the antiquitie of them . The Churches practise in the books of the Prophets , sheweth us our libertie in the Apostles writings ; which cannot be read over at once . And long before Henry Stephens time the Greek copies of the new Testament had chapters and sections though otherweise then we now have . And Matthewes gospel parted into 68. chapters or titles , and 355. sections , was in a manner as easie for the readers to serch , as it is now with us ; and so the rest . His second reason is , that th' Apostles in citing scriptures , quote not chapter and verse , but onely say it is written by Zacharie , by Jeremie ; the scripture sayth , &c. This reason dependeth on the former , and is there answered , in part . Further I observe , the Apostles speak diversly , sometime naming † no book at all ; sometime naming the book , as * the Psalmes ; sometime a part of the book ; as “ the second psalme , and how they particulated matters in their doctrine , is not set down ; the summonely of things is recorded . The argument therfore concluding , thus , it is not written that they quoted chapters , therefore they did it not ; is not of force , negatively . But if if be true which Hilarie an ancient writer † recordeth that the seventie Greek interpreters did number and order the Psalmes ; and we find that sometimes the Apostles quoted what Psalm in nōber they alleged ; it may warrant us such like use of humane labours , for help of our memorie . His third reason is of like nature , that no mention is made of any hearer that had his book &c. yet mought it be , say I , though it were not mentioned , they used to dispute in their synagogues ( after the lecture was ended ) ; and that † by the scriptures : and the hearers serched * the scriptures dayly for trial of doctrine . Who now can say that the hearers had or used no books in the synagogues ? His 4. reason is , that serching quotations hindreth attention , for the mind and affections are distracted from hearing by seeking the places &c. This I grant to be amysse , in all that so use their books ; for diligent eare shoud be given to all that is spoken . Howbeit this abuse , may not abolish the lawful use : for as by turning of leaves many hinder thēselves in time of hearing ; so many againe attentively hearkning , and comparing things spoken with the matters before and after in the chapter , are not hindred at all , but greatly furthered by looking on their books . And for this matter , I rest with that rule given by th' Apostle , for all things to be doon unto edification , seemlily , and with order . 1 Cor. 14. 12. 40. His last reason is , that manuscripts being few , and very dear , ( there being yet no printing found out ) all could not have or bring their bookes ; but there is onely one kind of true aad profitable hearing : eyther all to have bookes and serch or none . If God have left it to the wisdom and discretion of his people when and how to use the scriptures , so it be not to confound actions or hinder their good : I wil not bring their libertie into bondage , nor prescribe a law , where God hath given none . Though written copies were dear , yet were they many ; & many had them ; not all : for all now have not . That such as have not books , or cannot read , should prejudice other that have & can , there is no reason . It is not therefore for us to walk by example in this case , but by general ground and equitie from Gods law : who permitteth us free use of the scriptures for our edification , according to which if men use them in private or publik , they do well . Thus am I at an end about the mayn cōtroversie of the scriptures , which for the readers good I have beaten out and explaned , shewing the true differences which he handled covertly for his best advantage . Wherein the judicious may discern , how Mr. Sm. hath been up and down , wavering like a reed shaken of the wind ; sometimes seming to allow translations , sometime bitterly writing against them : that as easie it is to know * the way of a serpent upon the rock ; as the way of a man with his mineon error . A DEFENCE OF CHRISTS MINISTERIE in the church : against the contradiction of M. Smyth . VNto the former battel against the scriptures , M. Sm. addeth strife about the ministerie : affirming that the triformed presbyterie ( as he calleth it ) consisting of three kind of Elders , viz. Pastors , Teachers , Rulers , is none of Gods ordinance , but mans devise ; and that lay elders ( so called ) are antichristian . That other point , being an idol of his own invention , which he would have had worshiped in our church , I have more largely dealt against : this latter being a thing oft discussed heretofore , and no new thing by him alleged ; I wil the more briefly answer . M. Smyth a while before , both agreed in judgment with us ; and wrote † in defence of this ministerie which now he oppugneth : but that his first fayth and labours , he retracteth in this book : and sithence is fallen into further error about the covenant between God and his people . So by degrees he is come to undermine the word , the ministerie , and the covenant of grace , three mayn grounds of Christian religion : to manifest himself one of those which * privily should bring in damnable heresies , even denying the Lord that hath bought them , and bring upon themselves swift damnation . Touching the Eldership , his assertion is ; “ The presbyterie is uniform consisting of Officers of one sort . Esa. 66. 28. compared with Exod. 28. 1. and Num. 11. 24. 25. 1 Tim. 3. 1 — 8. Act. 14. 23. Phil. 1. 1. Ier. 23. 1 — 4. Ezek. 34. 1 — 6. If this opposite would have avouched the contrarie , he mought with farr more reason have alleged these scriptures . For Isa. 66. 21. speaketh of Preists & Levites . , which had charge of the sacrifices & sanctuarie : and Num. 11. 24. mentioneth the LXX . elders of Israel , joyned with Moses to ayd him in the government : and which mought not meddle with the sacrifices . And are these fit scriptures to prove Officers of one sort ? If he mean no other Uniformitie in the presbyterie , then was between those Elders and the Preists , he fighteth with his own shadow , not with us : who hold a more strict agreement in the Eldership of the church now , then was in that Eldership and preisthood of the law ; where one tended to civil causes , the other to ecclesiastical . But I wil come to his † reasons , proving the Elders to be of one sort , viz. al Pastors . First in the old testament ( sayth he ) there was but one kind of Priests , who had equal authority to administer al the holy things : excepting the high Priest , who typed forth Christ : so proportionably in the new Testament , there is but one sort of Elders , who succede the Preists in the dispensation of holy things . Esa. 66. 21. Behold here at first , the falshood of this adversarie : even now he quoted scriptures that spake of Preists , Levites and other Elders ; al which were different : and here he taketh one sort onely , Preists , to conclude about the Eldership of the church of Christ. But thus to reason from part of the figure ; to the whol thing figured , is mere deceit . Again , he misseth in his proportion , making al the Elders now , to succeed the Preists then , who had equal authoritie to administer al the holy things . For the prophet speaketh both of Preists and Levites Isa 66 ▪ 21. which had not equal authoritie in al the holy things , as the law plainly sheweth , Numb . 16. 8. 9. 10. 40. and 18. 2. 3. If now al the Elders be of one sort , & equally administer al the holy things , proportion is not kept with the Priests and Levites of the law as Esaias prophesied . M. Sm. saw this inconvenience , and therfore * afterwards seeketh thus to shift it off . The Deacons ( sayth he ) in the new testament are answerable to the Levites in the old ; as the Elders ar answerable to their Preists Esa. 66. 21. compared with 1 Chron. 26. 20. Here agayn he useth his former fallacie , concluding from part of the Levites , unto the whole . And taking one peece of scripture he neglecteth many other vvhich make against him . For as 1 Chron. 26. 20. shevveth that some Levites had charge of the treasures ; so 1 Chron. 23. 27. 28. &c. and 25. 1 , 2. &c. and 26. 1 , 2. &c. & Num. 18 ▪ & other scriptures many , shevv that othersome vvere assistants to the Preists in the service of the Lords hovvse in al businesses , stāding “ every morning and evening to give thanks and to prayse the Lord : and togither vvith the Preists † did teach & instruct the people , according to the blessing which Moses pronounced upon the whole tribe , Deut. 33. 9. 10. So that the Levites were Ministers also of the word & prayer , which is directly differing from the Deacons office in the Church now , as appeareth Act. 6. 2. 3. 4. As in the old Testament there was the sanhedrim which consisted of 70. ancients for the administration of the kingdom , which was a type of the visible Church , all which elders in their first institution * did prophesie and were of one kind under Moses : so in the new testament under Christ Jesus which is the King of the Church ther is asu●●drion or eldership consisting of ancients of one kind , who administer for the good of the Church . Rev. 4. 4. & 5. 6. First here is the same fallacie that we had before , concluding frō a part to the whol . For in the former , Esaias was cited for Preists and Levites to be figures of our Ministers , and now the Ancients of Israel are alleged for figures also ; & because these Anciēts were of one sort , therefore all the Presbyterie figured both by Preists of Levi , and by Ancients of other tribes , must be all of one sort . The conclusion is vanitie . Rather the reason should be framed thus , as the teaching Preists were of one sort and the governing Elders of an other ; so the teaching Ministers , and the governing elders differ at this day . Or , taking those Elders politik , to be figures of our Elders ecclesiastik , as M. Sm. maketh them , the true proportion is but this , as governing elders then , so governing elders now , are all of one sort ; and this is that which we hold . Neyther wil his other places Rev. 4. 4. and 5. 6. help him any better . For he seemeth to understand by that vision , the church ; and by the 24. elders about the throne , ( all which were of one kind ) the eldership of the Church : but he should with all have considered , that besides those Elders , there were 4. other † winged creatures ful of eyes , which incessantly praysed God , and went * before the Elders in this action of worship : and these were of the number “ of the redeemed by Christ blood , and of the Kings and Preists that reigned on earth ; and being as meet to signifie the Teachers of the Church , as the 24. are to signifie the ruling elders ; wil rather shew a difference between the teachers and governours of the Church ; then that they should be of one sort . How beit I rest not in his exposition of those Elders : but that is another point . Againe ( sayth he ) if Pastor , Teacher , Elder , had been 3. offices formally differing , the Apostle intending to teach the several officers of the church , would have mentioned them , 1 Tim. 3. but there he onely mentioneth Bishops and Deacons , according as Philip. 1. 1. go : Bishops are onely of one sort or kind . How M. Sm. understandeth this phrase of formally differing , I cannot tel ; his logik is not like every mans : the speach being well taken , I admit of ; and doe deney the consequence of his argument , that if they differ formally they should have been mentioned 1 Tim. 3. for it is as if he should have sayd , if Preists & Levites differ formally , Moses would so have mentioned them , Deut. 33. 8 . -10 . Nay Moses having mentioned the difference * other where ; thought it not needful to set it down here ; and so dooth th' Apostle . It is a weak ground to conclude against a thing , because it is not written in such or such a chapter . But the Apostle ( sayth he ) intendeth to teach the several offices of the Church . Not so ; but rather he intendeth to shew , how officers in generall should be qualified ; and setting downe things common to all , it had been needlesse repetition to speak of the Pastor first , and the same things of the teacher , and againe the third time , the same of the Elder : he useth no such tautologies . And Timothee needed not to be taught what offices belonged to the Church , though he mought have need to be put in mind of their qualifications . Yet even in the same Epistle , upon other occasions , he mentioneth † the difference of the office , some being to rule wel , some to labour in the word and doctrine . Of which we shall speak anon . And in his other Epistles , the like differences ar playn . Rom. 12. 7. 8. 1 Cor. 12. 4. 5. 28. Moreover , ( sayth he ) if th' Apostles had ordeyned three kind of ELDRS Actes . 14. 23. they would have mentioned them with their several kinds of ordinations : but that is not doon : for in one phrase their election and ordination is mentioned : go ; their ordination being one , their office is one , and not three . A reason much like the former , & of like vanitie ; for to say , such a thing is not mentioned in such a place , therfore it was not doon ; is inconsequent . And here the minding of his owne words , mought have stayed him from so concluding : for if Luke writing the action , doth in one phrase yea even in one word summ up both the election & the ordination , which yet ar different , and doon with many circumstances : may he not also under the general name Elders , imply differēt sorts . Agayn where the holy Ghost expresseth not any one kind of ordination , nor any one word spoken to the officers , concerning their charge and office layd upon them ; which yet no doubt was doon : Who would look for a severall kind of ordination , to be mentioned in such a place ? Further if ther had been 3 kind of Elders at Ephesus , then the Apostle at Miletum would haue given them severall charges as having several duties lying upon them : hut th' Apostle Act. 20. 28. giveth them one general charge common to them al , namely the dutie of feeding , the work of the Pastor . go , they are all Pastors . These reasons be al of a sute : and the prayer of David seemeth to have prevailed against this man , for † when he shooteth arrowes , they ar as broken : or like unto strawes . First , we cannot say what several charges Paul gaue those Elders ; seing all his words in particular are hot recorded . For there is no doubt , but he spake many moe words , then are set downe : and it is usuall in the scriptures , to summ up mens speeches . Secondly suppose he gave no several charges , but one general common to them all , which was † Poimainein to feed and govern the flock : yet wil not this prove that they had all one undistinct office : any more then that Peter had no other then a common Pastours office , because Christ gave him but a general charge common to al Pastors * poimaine , feed my sheep . The Preists and Levites had distinct offices , as before is manifested : yet Hezekiah speaking to them al generally , ( as Paul dooth here to the Elders , ) gives them not several charges , according to their severall duties , but useth one common exhortation to them al : which if one would pervert , ( as this man dooth Pauls speech , ) he mought plead that all the Levits then were properly to burn incense , as that al the Elders now should properly do the Pastors dutie . See 2 Chro. 29. 4. 5. — 11. The conclusion which he maketh that therefore al are Pastors , if he mean it in the strict sense , is deneyed , as inconsequent . If in the large sense , it is from the question , and deceiveth by ambiguitie : for Christ is a * Pastor , the Apostles-were † Pastors , and so are all Bishops & governours generally : yet no man I think doubteth but these do differ . Besides . Eph. 4. 11. Pastors and Teachers are all one office . For wheras the Apostle had spoken distributively before of Apostles Prophets , Evangelists as intending them several offices : he speaketh copulatively of Pastors and Teachers , exegetically teaching that they are both one office . First , let it be observed , how himselfe doth say , Apostles , Prophets Evengelists were several offices ; yet can he not deny , but generally they were to poimaeinein , that is doe the dutie of Pastors , feeding and governing the Church of Christ : & so his former exception against Act. 20. is found of no weight . Also his reasons from Isa . 66. 21. & Numbers 11. 25. for one sort of officers to be figured in the law , are of as little valew ; unlesse we should think that the principal officers of the Christian Church , were not figured or prophesied of at all . Secondly the exposition which he giveth of Ephes. 4. 11. is against the Apostles purpose , who distinctly and distributively setteth down the divers gifts and offices of the church : and therfore cānot be thought to expresse one & the same office by two names . For though he speak copulatively , pastors and teachers , yet is ther no reason why these should be taken for one , seeing this word and , coupleth divers things & divers officers ; as Apostles and Prophets , Eph. 2. 20 , and 3 , 5. Apostles and Elders Act. 15 , 2. Prophets & Teachers , Act 13 , 1. and a thowsand the like . Neither needed he teach exegetically , by way of exposition what the pastors office is ; seeing it was as wel , if not better known , then the Prophets office or Evangelists : neyther is it an exposition , when the latter is as dark and more then the former ; and the first more proper then the second . For the proper name of the office , as M. Sm. takes it , is Pastor : now to say Pastors that is teachers , were to explayn the proper by the unproper , or commune name , which neither Paul nor any wise writer useth to doe . But is ignorance or a worse thing that causeth M. Sm. to pervert so plain a place . The Apostle particulating the several offices some Apostles , some Prophets &c. doth in the last branch according to the elegancie both of the Hebrue and Greek tongues , omitt the word some , putting and in the sted , in the very same meaning . An example of the Bebrue may be seen Hos. 3. 4. where the Prophet telleth how Israel should remayn without King , and without Prince , and without offring , and without statue , and without Ephod , and Teraphim : meaning and without Teraphim . Here in the last place the word without , is omitted , and to be understood of the reader , as our English translation dooth expresse ; for it were trifling to say as Mr. Smyth , that the two last are one , because and coupleth them , or that exegetically one expoundeth an other , when as it is but an elegancie in the language : as al that have skil in it can tel . The like is in the Greek tongue , and in Pauls own writing ▪ Gal. 3. 28. There is neither Jew ( sayth he ) nor Greek ; there is neither bond nor free : there is neither male and female : that is nor female ▪ where and coupleth in the last place , male and female , not as of one kind but divers ; and meaneth the same that nor did before . The very like phrase and elegancie useth he here , Eph. 4. 11. as any that favoureth the language and purpose of the Apostle , may perceive . and this is plainly confirmed by the Syriak , which speaketh of the two last as of the former , saying , and some Pastors and some Teachers . It is also manifested by Paul himself elswher distinguishing these two offices , as 1 Cor. 12 , 8. to one is given the word of wisdom , and to another the word of knowledge : and Rom. 12. 7. 8. or he that teacheth on teaching , or he that exhorteth on exhortation . And if in one place he putteth a difference ; we should not think that in another he takes it away . And there is no playn doctrine set down in scripture , but may be corrupted by such violent expositions as Mr. Smyth maketh of this place . Lastly ( sayth he ) if al the Elders have the pastors gifts , and the works of the pastor , and the pastors ordination , then they have al the pastors office . But al the Elders have the pastors gifts viz. the word of wisdome or the gift of exhortation , Tit. 1. 9. and therefore the pastors work , as Act. 20. 28. 1 Pet. 5. 2. which is feeding or exhorting : and so the same ordination . Act. 14. 23. Therfore al the Elders have the same office of the Pastor , and so are al of one sort . The second part of this reason is deceitful ; for though in some sort and common mesure al the Elders have the pastors gifts , & ordination , and doe the pastors work ; being al Bishops , that is , careful lookers to , and feeders of the flock : yet in special manner & measure they differ in al. Otherweise , we may also confound other offices : as Apostles and Evangelists , the Evangelists and the Pastors . For Paul an Apostle sayth of Timothee an Evangelist , * he worketh the work of the Lord , even as I. Had these two therfore one office ? Agayn , Timothee and Titus Evangelists , and the other pastors of the churches , had the same gifts , namely the word of wisdom to exhort , 1 Tim. 6 , 2. Tit. 2 , 15. with Rom. 12 , 8. and therefore the same work , ( as these scriptures alleged shew ; ) and the same ordination by imposition of hands of the Apostle and Eldership 2 Tim. 1. 6. 1 Tim. 4. 14. with Act. 14. 23. Wil M. Sm. hereupon conclude , therfore al pastors have the same office with the Evangelists ? If he acknovvledge an error in that , so may he doe in this . For it is the special excellencie of the gifts of exhorting , teaching , ruling , which causeth the pastors , teachers , rulers , to be designed unto several works and offices . For it were vanitie to suppose , that the teachers mought be without the word of wisdom at all , or Pastors without the word of knowledge , or rulers without both . Everie Levites lips were to preserve knovvledge , for the people to seek the lavv at his mouth , as at the preists ; Deut. 33. 8. 10. Mal. 2. 7. yet vvas ther difference in the office So in Christs Church vvhere gifts are bestovved in varietie , he that excelleth in the vvord of vvisdome and exhortation more then doctrine , is ( being lavvfully caled thereto , a pastor ; and he that excelleth in doctrine more then in exhortation , is a teacher : and they that excel other brethren in discretion gravitie &c. though they have not meet gifts for pastors or teachers , are ( being caled thereunto ) Elders or governours , to assist the other in guiding the vvayes of the church . And needful are they unto the same , for one man may vvel teach an hundred , but tvvo men vvil scarse govern half so many in peace and order : so great a difference there is , betvveen the knovvledge of the truth , and the due vvalking and practise of the same . Whereas therfore M. S. gives al the Elders , the word of wisdome , and so the pastors office ; meaning strictly and properly : he contraryeth the Apostle vvho sayth , † there are diversities of gifts ; and to one is given the word of wisdom , and to another the word of knowledge ; and agayn speaking of office , he mentioneth * distinctly teaching , & exhorting , & ruling , not in one person but in sundry . Although sometime speaking of the Eldership in general , he ascribeth the same vvork in general thereto , as in Tit. 1. Act. 20. and other like places . Of the ordination Act. 14. vve spake before . Novv after al these reasons , M. Sm. thus concludeth . Hence this con●ectorie ( sayth he ) ariseth : that the Eldership consisting of three sorts of Elders , is the invention of man , having both an antichristian ministerie and goverment in it . And therfore when the popish prelacie was supprest , and the triformed presbyterie substituted , one antichrist was put down , and another was set up in his place . &c. vvith other like contumelies . But the falshood and vanitie of his reasons having been manifested , al these reproches do turn into his ovvn bosome , and in him is fulfilled the word of the Prophet , * whiles like the raging sea , he thus casteth up mire and dirt . For God having given to his church “ diversities of giftes , diversities of administratiōs ( or offices , ) and diversities of operations , some for to † teach , some to exhort , some for to rule ; and having evidently distinguished between “ Teachers , and Governours ; between those Elders that * rule wel , and those that labour in the word & doctrine : it must needs be the spirit of Antichrist and of Satan , that thus despiteth Christs holy ordinances , which this adversarie himself sometime acknowledged and walked in ; and now hath forsaken , without ground of truth . But he hath more yet to say , in answering the obiections for 3. sorts of Elders : which he thus * layeth down . The first objection . 1 Tim. 5. 17. In this place the Apostle maketh two sorts of Elders , 1. those that rule onely , 2. and those that teach and rule . And Ephe. 4. 11. he maketh 2. kindes of those that teach , Pastors and Doctors . Therefore there are 3. kindes of Elders formally differing each from other . Mr Smythes answer . The Apostle to Timothee teacheth that Elders are to be honoured for 2. workes , wel ruling and laborious or painful teaching : and the place dooth not import a distribution of Officers , but a commendation of several workes of one office : and the specialty consisteth not in the workes of ruling & teaching which are common to all Elders ; but in the qualitie of the works , viz. wel ruling , and painful teaching , as if th' Apostle should say . Elders are to be had in double honour for wise government , but much more are they to be honoured for their laborious and painful teaching . Replie . If emptie words mought cary away matters , it were woe with the truth of religion , for ech spirit of error would bear it down . A doctrin most playn , set forth in evident words ; is here turned aside , with a deceitful glosse , contrary to the tenour of the text . Two several works he acknowledgeth ruling and teaching : yet two several men for these workes he wil not admit of . But had he learned the Apostles word , † who is sufficient for these things ? he mought have seen a reason of the counsel of God , in adding helps to the teachers of the word . For if the Apostles those excellent master builders , had need of supply , for want of sufficiencie ; how much more need have wee weaklings ? It is Gods usual administration in his church , for several works to appoint several persons : so to Moses he committed * the goverment political , to “ Aaron the ecclesiastical . To Moses he adjoyned † 70. ancients of Israel ; besides the * ordinarie inferiour governours : to Aaron he “ gave for a gift the whole tribe of Levi. The Levites had also their special distributions , † some helping the Preists in sacrificing &c. some tending to song and musik , some warding the Tabernacle , some looking to the treasures : al joyntly the Ministers and teachers of the church . Deut. 10 , 8. & 33. 10. Christ also providing for the good of his church , as he hath * diversities of operations or effects to work in the same , so hath he given “ diversities of gifts , and these to † diverse persons , and also with * diversities of ministeries or offices , “ some to teach , some to exhort , some to distribute , some to rvle ; that that gift which is dimm in one man , may shine clear in an other , and the church have the use and benefit of al. Now comes M. Sm. and he not being able to deney the diversities of works and operations required in the church : yet dareth deney the diversities of offices , and wil have one man in one limited office of the Pastor , to do al that perteyneth to exhorting , teaching , and governing of the church : though the scriptures doe so plainly distinguish . And if men excelling in the gift of exhortation , be chosen to attend unto that ministration or office of exhorting ; and others excelling in the gift of teaching , others in governing , be chosen to execute their gifts in the teachers and governours offices ; this he exclaymeth to be Antichristian : for one office he thinks must doe al. To this end wresteth he these words of Paul * The Elders that rule wel , are worthy double honour : specially they that labour in the word & doctrine . The specialtie sayth M. S. consisteth not in the works of ruling & teaching , but in the qualitie of the works , viz , wel ruling & fupainll teaching . I deney this violent construction : and affirm the specially here added of Paul , to respect a special distinct person in and for his work : as may thus be manifested . The Apostle treateth of honour , and unto whom it belongeth . * Honour widowes ( sayth he ) which are widowes in deed . Give “ double honour to the Elders that rule wel : speciallie to them that labour in the word . As honour & double honour , respecteth several persons in their several estates and imployments ; so double honour and special double honour , respecteth several persons in and for their several works and imployments ; some ruling wel , othersome labouring in the word . Thus the scripture is plain . But M. S. will have the specialtie to consist in the qualitie of the work , viz , wel ruling and painful teaching , As if Paul would have double honour given to them that rule and teach , but specially if they rule wel & teach painfully . But thus he neither speaketh nor meaneth . For al rule is either wel or yll : but ill rule deserves no honour , therfore it were unmeet to appoint double honour in this respect , where * open rebuke rather is due , and where losse and dammage followeth , because the work must burn . 1 Cor. 3. 14. 15. But take it as the Apostle speaks and intends , widowes indeed are to have honour : the wel ruling Elders are to have double honour , thus it is meet , and the meaning evident . Now the specialtie cometh after wel ruling , and respecteth an other work , labouring in the word : where the former word wel is again to be understood . For false teachers laboured in the word , to seduce and deceiv : such were to have no special double honour , but their “ mouths stopped , and to be † turned away from , though they creep into howses , though they use * fair speech and flattering , though they take such pains , as they “ compasse sea and land to make one of their profession . Again , the word labouring makes not the specialtie : as M. Smyth interpreteth it , painful teaching ; for labour is a common dutie lying upon al church officers , whose office is not in idlenes . None can rule wel but with labour : none can teach well but with labour : and therefore PAVL useth this word of all the officers , 1 Cor. 16. 16. So the specialty here is not for labour simply , but for labour in the word & doctrine , which some Elders did ; differing from labour in government , which othersome did , as is evidēt both by this & other scriptures , as 1 Cor. 12. 28. thirdly teachers ; after that governours : and Rom. 12. 7. 8. he that teacheth on teaching : he that ruleth with diligence . Thus several men were imployed in these several labours or works , and in respect of the persons imployed , is the word specially added , and purposly put between rulers & teachers , as if the Apostle should say , they that labour in ruling are worthy of double honor , specially they that labour in teaching . And that this is Pauls mind his plain words shew , when he sayth , they that rule , and they that labour : where this word , they , leadeth to diverse persons ; as in other scriptures , * they that have doon good , and they that have doon evil ; “ they that weep and they that rejoyce ; and innumerable such speeches . Agayn the word specially being put between them that rule , and them that labour , confirmeth this yet more : for it increaseth the distinction : as when Paul in the same Epistle sayth , God is † the saviour of al men , specially of the faithful : the word specially distinguisheth the faythful from other common men of the world , who have not fayth in God , and yet are saved or preserved by him , that is the preserver of al his creatures , and saveth * man and beast . So to Titus he sayth , “ there are many deceivers of minds , specially they of the circumcision ; where the word specially distinguisheth those of the circumcision from other deceivers ; and meaneth not the same , but different persons . And if here we take it not so for several persons ( where wel ruling is first set down , and specially comes after , for such as labour in the word and doctrine : ) we overthrow the force and grace of Pauls gradation , or stepping to his specialty . And if he had meant as M. S. takes it , for the qualitie of the works , doon by the same persons : it should be as otherwhere Paul writeth , they that ▪ labour † much or labour * more then the rest : but he speaks not so here . M. S. expounding the place of the same persons to be honoured for wise government , but much more for their painful teaching : confirmeth not his doctrine by any circumstances of this scripture , but citeth others saying , Answer . That this is so see Tit. 1. 9. and 1 Thes. 5. 2. 1 3. with 1 Tim. 3. 1. 4. In Timothee the Apostle sayth every Bishop must be didacticos , and proistamenos : and therefore that some Elders are onely didacticoi , and not proistamenoi , is contrarie to the Apostles intent . Further in Titus , the Apostle expoundeth didacticos to be able to exhort with wholsom doctrine , and to convince the gainsayers : how then shal some of the Elders be rulers onely ? Replie . That al Bishops must be didacticoi , that is , apt and ready for to teach , reprove &c. I grant : yet that they must therfore hav al one office Ideney . For Apost . prophets , Evangelists , &c. were al didacticoi , yet differed in office . But how then shal some of the Elders be rulers onely ? I answer , even Ruling Elders are to be didacticoi , and yet have the office of ruling onely . For every one set over others to teach or inform them in faith or māners , must have aptnes to teach the things perteyning to their office , and convince the contrarie : or els they are unfit for the place . But have they not then the teachers office ? No , for this aptnes to teach is common to al offices of government , but in several sorts , according to every mans function . For example , an Apostle must be apt to teach as an Apostle : and though a man have aptnes to teach as a pastor , yet hath he not therefore aptnes as an Apostle . For the office is greater , and requireth greater gifts . So a ruling Elder must be apt to teach as a ruler : yet hath he not therfore aptnes to teach as a pastor , in whom greater skil is required . Let us see this in Israel ▪ Aptnes to teach was to be in al the Governours : in the whole tribe of Levi generally , Deut. 33. 10. in the preists of Levi more specially , Mal. 2. 7. Deut. 24. 8. in the judges of Israel also according to their office , Deut. 1 , 13 , 16. with Exod. 18. 15 , 16 , 21 , 22. For this cause God gave the 70. Elders , the spirit of prophesie , Num. 11. 17. 25. And in the reformation by K. Iehoshaphat , we find not onely preists and Levites , but other Princes of the king , sent for to teach the people , 2 Chr. 17 , 7 , 8. 9. These al were didacticoi , apt to teach , but in several respects , and measures , and in several offices . Otherweise if one wil understand aptnes to teach , strictly as in the pastors office : then are Pauls words to be taken figuratively † the whol for a part , or general for a particular : as a Bishop , that is a teac●hing Bishop , must be didacticos . And thus the scripture som●●me speaketh ; as Deut. 33. 8. 10. of the whol tribe of Levi , it is sayd they shal teach ; they shall put incense &c. when as , though al were to teach , yet all were not to burn incense but the * Preists onely ; Also in Deut. 10. 8. of the Tribe of Levi in general , it is sayd , God separated them , to bear the ark , to stand before the Lord to minister unto him , and to blesse in his name . Yet were there special things about † blessing , “ bearing the ark , and other ministration , which belonged to the Preists of the Levits in particular . Even so Paul writing to Timothee and Titus , of the Eldership in general , may note some things , which more specially perteyn to some onely in particular . Touching the word Proistamenos ; Provost or Ruler ; although I wil not deney but every Elder may be so called in a large sense : yet specially it is the title of Ruling Elders onely . And it is an oversight in M. Smyth to write that th'Apostle sayth , Every Bishop must be proistamenos : for that word hath relation to the † ruling of his owne howse , which every Bishop must be able wel to do ; but in relation to the Church , the governing elders onely * are called proistamenoi ; and it is their “ peculiar titie , even as Pastors and Teachers are peculiar titles to others , and the name BISHOP and ELDER , † common to them all . In the last place M. Sm. repeateth his former reason from Ephes. 4. how the Apostle sayth not some Pastors , some Teachers , but Pastors & Teachers copulatively . But that is before answered , and the playne meaning of Paul manifested , to be , some Pastors and some Teachers , as the ancient Syriak speaketh , and other reasons from that and the like scriptures do confirm . The 2 , obiection . 1 Cor. 12. 5. 8. 28. The Apostle sayth , ther are diversities of ministeries namely one that hath the word of wisdom , another that hath the word of knowledge , another that hath government , vers . 28. Therefore the Eldership consisteth of three sort of Elders . &c. Mr Smythes answer . First it is granted that there are diversities of ministeries , as Ephe. 4. 11. 1 Tim. 3. 1. 8. Phil. 1. 1. namely Apostles , Prophets , Evangelists , Pastors , Deacons . Yet it foloweth not hereupon , that elders are of divers sorts , as is pleaded . see vers . 28. Agayn the word diaconia , signifyeth sometime any spiritual work proceeding from any member or officer of the Church , as 2 Cor. 8. 4. almes is caled diaconia , 1 Pet. 4. 10. diaconein signifieth any work that proceedeth from any gift . So it may signify here : and all the works that follow almost : may be referred thither . Onely there are certaine energemata mentioned in vers . 10. Replie . I perceive though the light shineth in darknes , yet * the darknes comprehendeth it not : especially when men doe “ wink with their eyes , least they should see . The sun shineth not clearer at noon , then the truth shineth out of this scripture , with M. S. seeks to darken with a clowd of deceit . The Apostle teacheth , first that * one and the same spirit of God , bestoweth on the Church diversities of gifts ; to † one the word of wisdome , to another the word of knowledge , &c. Secondly , that “ one and the same Lord , ( Iesus ¶ Christ ) giveth to his Church , diversities of ministeries or offices , that so the divers gifts may be ministred to the people , * doctrine by the teacher ; exhortation by the exhorter or pastor ; government by the ruler &c. Thirdly that one and the same God ( the † father of whom are all things ) “ worketh or effecteth diversities of effects or operations in the Church , by those divers gifts , and divers ministeries . For example ; as Christ is given for ¶ Prophet * Preist and † King of the Church ; a Prophet to work upon the knowledge of men , that they may discern syn and righteousnes : a Preist to work upon the will and affections , killing them as sacrifices , “ that a new and reasonable creature may be given up to GOD ; asking , that the things taught by prophesie ; and applied by preisthood , may be orderly practised in life , preserved from † all adverse power , and in the end perfected : even so in his Church ( besides extraordinarie miraculous Ministeries of Apostles , Prophets , Evangelists , Tongues , giftes of healing and the like , which were but for a time , ) he hath set ordinarie permanent Ministeries to the worlds end ; of † teachers that by the “ word of knowledge should teach & inform the minds of men ; of ¶ Pastors , that by the * word of wisdome should exhort and apply the truth vnto the conscience and hart of men ; and of † Governours , that by “ diligent rule , should look unto the practise and walking of men , & conserve the church in order and peace . Thus God effecteth divers effects by the divers Ministeries in his Church , as the Apostle teacheth . Now though in the enumeration of the Ministeries , Teachers & Governours * are evidently distinguished , as thirdly teachers , after that , governours ; and elswhere as plainly distinct in their administrations , as † the Elders that rule well , & they that labour in the word and doctrine : and againe , * he that teacheth on teaching : he that ruleth , with diligence : yet Mr Sm. would darken all this light , with this dimm answer , it folowes not hereupon that elders are of divers sorts : see verse 28. as if he should say , though th'Apostle plainly speaks it , yet do not you beleeve him . So though Paul expresseth the office of Teachers , 1 Cor. 12. 28. which M. S. wil hav to be the exegesis that is the expositiō of the word Pastors Ephe. 4. 11. and so must needs be the proper and plaine name of the office : yet in his book where he pleads for the abomination of Anabaptisme , he thus proclaimeth , among other challenges , * Loe. we protest against them , to have a false Ministerie of Doctors or Teachers : as if he would have the world to take notice , that he meaneth to warr against heaven . With like grace striveth he against the word Diaconia , Ministerie , ( which the Apostle useth , 1 Cor. 12. 5. ) saying that it signifyeth sometime any spirituall work &c. and , so it may signifie here . But if such shifting & winding may be admitted , we shal have no truth so plain , but may be oppugned : yea Iudaisme and Atheisme may be mainteyned . For we allege against Iewes to prove the death of Christ how the Angel prophesied Messiah shal be slayn Dan. 9. 26. I , sayth the Iew , but Messiah somtime signifieth any one that is anoynted ; Preist or King ; & so may it here be meant of any anointed governor , & not of him that is properly the Messiah . Tel an Atheist that “ God made heaven and earth ; and he may answer that Aelohim God is somtime vsed to signify Angels , Psal. 8. 5. with Heb. 2. 7. sometime to signify Magistrates , Psal. 82. 1. 6. and therfore he beleevs not any such God properly , as we professe . Thus every truth , upon a diverse use of the word , may be turnd away . But sheweth Mr. Sm. any reason , why diaconia should so signifie here ? none at all : but sayth , so it may be , and telleth of certayn energemata mentioned vers . 10. which is as much to the edifying of the reader , as if he had told him there are certayn giants † of the sons of Anak , with whom it is not safe to meddle . He should not thus trouble the reader with clowds ; the truth is cleare and playn . For diaconia is the most proper fit word that the Apostle could possibly use ; it being the ordinarie word used for ministerie of every kind ; as the ministerie or office of the Apostleship , Rom. 11. 13. 1 Tim. 1. 12 , the ministerie of the Evangelists , 2 Tim. 4. 5. the ministerie of Pastors or Teachers , Col. 4. 17. the Ministerie of Rulers , and ministerie of Deacons , Rom. 12. 7. 8. Act. 6. 1 Tim. 3. 12. 13. So Diaconos is everie minister , and Diaconia everie ministerie or administration of what sort soever . Now Paul here spake † before of divers gifts to be administred ; and * after of divers effects or operations of the gifts being administred ; & between “ booth mentioneth diversities ( diaconioon ) of ministeries or offices wherby those gifts should be administred and manifested in the Church , that they might be effectual : which what can they be , but the offices or ministeries committed to men and executed by them for this end ? Even as immediately foloweth * the manifestation of the spirit is given to every man to profit withall . And after by a similitude of † the body , and members , applied “ to the Church and officers , he confirmeth the same . But though the wisdom of God * powreth out her mind unto us , and maketh us to understand her words : yet some men † wil none of her counsel , they dispise all her correction . The 3 Objection . The Apostle Rom. 12. 6. 8. maketh an opposition between prophesie and an office and maketh five kinds of officers , Pastors , Teachers , Rulers , Deacons , Widowes . M. S. Answer . That is denyed to be the true resolution of the place &c. for although there be five several actions repeted , yet doth it not follow that there are five several officers to perform those actions : for one person may perform them al , and yet be no officer , viz. teach , exhort , rule , distribute , shew mercy . 1 Cor. 14. 3. 26. 31. Rom. 12 , 13. 1 Cor. 5. 5. Replie . Behemoth is so big that he “ trusteth to draw up Iarden into his mouth ; but no beast ( I trow ) weeneth that he can drink up all the waters of the sea . Korah thought so wel of his † holynes and abilitie , that though he were but an ordinarie Levite , he could doe the Preists office also : but I never heard of man til now , that could perform al the actions that are to be doon in a church . The Apostles could not * tend to two offices therein at once , but got others to doe one ; & notwithstanding complayned of their inabilitie in that , saying “ who is sufficient for these things ? And may one person now perform al actions ? needs must the works become much more easie ; or the person that dooth them , much more mightie , then any that lived in the Apostles time . How ever it may be in distresse and extremitie , that one man may do som things one after another , about al these actions , yet perform them he cannot . And who but one striken † with madnes and blindnes and astonying of hart , ( as Moses did prophesie ) to grope at noon day , as the blind gropeth in darknes , could read this scripture Rom. 12. and the other places cited , & gather such a doctrine from them ? The Apostles purpose in Rom. 12. is to perswade unto vertue , among vertues specially to * sobrietie or modestie , which bewtifieth al good actions . Hereunto he perswadeth by this , that every man hath but his part and mesure from God , & one hath not al. This he confirmeth by the similitude of the “ body , whose members have not al one office or action , but many : † so is it with the church ; for God hath given * divers gifts unto the many members or persons of the same ; some have simplie the gift of prophesie , which they may use to the edifying of the church , some have an † office or ministerie also whereunto they are appointed and must attend . Some are Teachers , * some Exhorters , some Distributers , some Rulers , some shewers of mercy . Every one of these must look to the administration and dispensation of his gift , in sobrietie , according to the measure and vocation that he hath from God , for the good of the whole body of the church . The like doctrine is taught again , 1 Cor. 12. 4. 5. 8 — 12. &c. Now let him that readeth consider , whither M. Sm , doctrine that one person may perform al these , be not as directly opposite to the Apostles meaning and scope , as darknes to light ? But he hath yet more to answer . Answer . Agayn the distributive particle Eite fowre times repeted , in prophesie , diaconia , exhorting , and teaching , importeth thus much : that the Apostles intention is not to subordinate teaching and exhorting to diaconia , but to oppose ech of these 4. particulars to other , as thus : Prophesie is the manifestation of a gift , 1 Cor. 14. 3. Diaconia is the office , & there are divers kinds therof 1 Cor. 12. 5. Teaching is one action or work of the prophets or officers 1 Cor. 14. 26. Exhorting is another action or work of them . 1 Cor. 14. 3. Hence it foloweth that teaching & exhorting are aswel subordinate to prophesie as to diaconia . Replie . Thorns and snares ( sayth “ Solomon ) are in the way of the froward : that find we here . For to trouble and intangle the simple reader , al shifts are sought out , least truth should prevaile . First the objection was of M. Smyths own contriveing , as he liked best to answer : otherweise he could not ( I suppose ) be ignorant , that most learned men of these times , ( so far as I have seen ) though they detest his error , do grant his conclusion . But he concludes not the question , namely that 1. Teaching , 2. Exhorting , 3. distributing , 4. ruling , 5. shewing mercy , are al to be performed in the church by one person : or that Paul intends any such thing here . I have before shewed the contrarie . But I wil labour to break his snare , that the simple fal not therin . diaconia he rightly interpreteth Office , and sayth , there are diverse kinds thereof : citing 1 Cor. 12. 5. Let this be compared compared with his answer before to the second objection : where he pleaded that diaconia in 1 Cor. 12. 5. mought signifie a work . There he set himself to cavil against the truth , here unawares he granteth it . Wel , seing diaconia here is an office ; and there be offices divers : let us proceed . Teaching ( sayth he ) is one work of the prophets or Officers ; exhorting is an other work of them . Of them , I grant ; for they are divers : but is it of him , that is of one and the same officer ? is ther any word or title that intimateth this ? none at al , but the contrarie : for as the Apostle mentioneth divers works , teaching exhorting &c. so mentioneth he divers persons , the teacher , the exhorter , the distributer , the ruler . Neyther doth he say , let him that teacheth , teach , & exhort , & distribute , and rule , as if one man should do al : but , let him that teacheth teach , let him that exhorteth exhort . As if he should speak of the members of the body ( which similitude he used ) let that which seeth , see circumspectiv : let that which heareth , hear attentively ; let that which speaketh , speak warily &c. Would any reasonable man think , that one member must doe al these actions , that the eye because it seeth , it also must hear , and speak : and not understand this of the three several members , the eye , ear , and tongue ? Even so unreasonable is the collection , that Paul should mean one person to do those several actions . But M. S. striving about the particle eite , which signifieth whither & or , & applying it to the 4. particulars ; maketh the two last to be teaching & exhorting : wherein he useth deceit for advantage . For he putteth the action for the actor that doth it . The Apostle sayth , or he that teacheth , or he that exhorteth , so noting two persons : M. Sm. sayth or teaching , or exhorting , so noting two actions . Thus he intending to have many actions doon by one person , wresteth the scripture , and maketh it speak after his own fansie . This being observed , his pleading about Eite wil be little worth , for the Apostle by it , dis joyneth things thus . * Gifts ye have divers , which gifts ye use and manifest , either by prophesie ( which “ any private person in the church may doe , even as al other like gifts , of † tongues , interpretations , Psalmes and the like : ) or by ministerie that is by office and charge layd upon you , which as it * is divers , so every one must “ attend unto , and look that he † fulfil the same Thus is here a ful and perfect distribution of al the gifts that are in the church , by the two general sorts of persons , or subjects that have them : 1. private brethren , or 2. publik officers . This first division being perfect : that which followeth is an under division , or an other division , not of the gifts , but of the persons that have the gifts : which are five , 1. Teachers , 2. Exhorters , 3. Distributers , 4. Rulers , 5. Shewers of mercie . The two first whereof have the signe of disjunction or before thē , in the other it is to be understood : for such defect is cōmon . Now al these persons are to be referred , eyther to the former 1. prophesie , or 2. ministerie , that is office : or both . But seing no scripture , that I know of , speaketh of distribution , or Ruling , or Shewing mercie , under the name of prophesie : therefore I refer them to the latter word Office or Ministerie , to which they al agree . Teaching and exhorting I grant are doon in † prophesie , by private brethren : but that they are more specially doon in * ministerie by publik officers , none I think wil deney . And that here Paul referrs them to ministerie , seemeth to me most evident : for prophesie was limited by him , “ according to the proportion of fayth : so that if any brother in prophesying , kept unto the proportion of fayth he did yenough : but an officer must not onely do this , but must also attend vnto the continual doing of it , † in season , out of season , * privatly , publikly , and therfore must “ give himself hereunto ; whereas a private brother followeth other vocation , and speaketh but † when he seeth occasion . For this cause , Paul sayth here , * an office should be in the office , or ministerie in the ministration : meaning that it should be waited upon , and executed in sobrietie . And then comming to the Teacher and Exhorter , he useth like speech , in doctrine & in exhortation , meaning that they should give themselves to these works , and execute them with modestie . So the officers , rather then the private brethren ( upon whom no such burden is layd ) seem here to be intended by teacher & exhorter , and so consequently diverse officers , as there be divers actions for them to perform , and have diverse gifts of God for the same end . But M. S. continueth his answer thus . Further if Diaconia be the genus to these 5. species folowing , then I say that Diaconia signifieth not an office , but a work : and of workes there are those 5. kindes . That diaconia doth sometime signify a work is plaine . 2 Cor. 8. 4. 1 Pet. 4. 10. Lastly , the Apostle that knew how to speak would never have made teaching and exhortation members distributive with prophesie and diaconia , if he had intended to make them species subordinate to diaconia : therfore questionlesse that is not his intention . Rather then he wil yeeld to the truth , he seeks every corner of error : and now the diverse use of the word diaconia must agayne be urged , against the proper meaning of the same , against the evident light of this scripture , & against the mans own former interpretation . And sure he is used to rough wayes and words , that sayth it is playne , diaconia signifies a work : the scriptures that he quoteth shew it not . The word signifieth ministerie or office , and ministration or service doon unto any other : but work is an unproper interpretation . Let linguists judge . Nay let M. S. himself judge , if he wil be tried by himself ; for in his book against M. Bernard ( written after this ) he hath this proposition ; † The true ministerie hath a true office , in execution wherof it is exercised ; Rom. 12. 7. 1. Cor. 12. 5. 28 Eph. 4. 11. I would gladly know how M. Sm. wil prove his aslertion from these scriptures , if diaconia do not signify an office in this place . But it is Gods special judgement against haeretiks , that they should be * autocatacrit●i , condemned of themselves . Yet were it translated work , what would it help him ? Of workes there are 5. kindes sayth he . Who denyes it ? but are there not also as many kind of workers ? let this be disproved : otherweise to strive for the former , is to fight with his shadow . The Apostle ( we doubt not ) knew wel how to speak ; and therefore spake not as M. S. feighneth , of teaching & exhortation as distributive members ; but of the teacher and exhorter . And all men know that an office and officer have fit reference each to other ; so ministerie being mentioned in generall , the several ministers ar fitly next named . But of this point I spake before . The 4. objection The Apostle by the commandement of Christ ; writeth to the Angels of the ● ▪ Churches of Asia Rev. 1. & 2. & 3. That is to the Pastors which ar but one in every particular Church . For so the wordes are , to the Angel of the Church , &c. Mr Smythes answer . First it can never be proved by scriptures , that there was but one Pastor in a Church , it is playn , Act. 20. 28. that ther were many in the Church of Ephesus , ( that was one of those 7. Churches ) that did perform the work of the Pastor , which is poimainein to feed ; even all the elders vers . 17. with verf. 28. And therefore ther were many Pastors in that Church in Pauls time . Againe , al churches had officers of one sort , & one kind of Presbyterie ; &c. Replie . This is the last objection which M. Sm. maketh and answereth . Other reasons many there are , more pregnant : this alone without conference with other scriptures , I know will not prove many sorts of officers But it may serve to confirm the point thus : seing in Ephesus the were * many Elders ; & Christ here directeth his Epistle to the † Angel or Messenger of that Church ; this seemeth to be one that had the principal charge of the whol , that is the Pastor . But it can not be proved ( sayth M. S. ) that there was but one Pastor in a church . Neyther can it be proved ( say I ) that there were many . Yes sayth he , al the Elders in Ephesus were * poimainein to feed , or doe the Pastors work therfore there were many Pastors . I answer , it followeth not ; for the reasō deceiveth by aequivocatiō or double meaning of the word . Pastor , generally taken is any governour ; paricularly and strictly ( wherof now we speak ) it is the “ Exhorter , or he that hath * the word of wisdome . In the general meaning Christ is † the Pastor , the Apostles “ Pastors , * all the Elders of a particular Church ar Pastors . Wil he conclude hereupon , that an Apostle and a Pastor properly so called , is all one office ? The Apostle sheweth the contrarie , Ephes. 4. 11. As then an Apostle and a Pastor be diverse officers , though both doe poimainein , feed : so Pastors , Teachers , Rulers , may be different officers , though all do poimainein , that is feed & rule the flock . The Pastors in Israel , in the scriptures which he before alleged , Ier. 23. 1. Ezek. 34. 2 , had they al one particular office ? Farr otherwise . For Preists and Levites were distinct in office , and other Elders distinct from them both , as before I have manifested . yea not onely the Sacrificers , but the civil governors were Pastors . K. Dauid was a Pastor “ taken to feed Iaakob and Israel . Accordingly in Act. 20. & 1. Pet. 5. al the Elders may feed , & yet not al be in one & the same , but in distinct office . Answer Further , ( sayth Mr. Sm. ) the Angel of every one of those Churches , dooth not signfy one Pastor onely in every Church , but eyther the college of Pastors if they were many , or the company of the most sincere and holy men , that most opposed the corruptions of the Church , or were most holy and zelous in life & doctrine . That an Angel signifieth a company of men , is plaine , Rev. 14. 6. 8. 9. & 18 , 4. Replie . It is not playn , but very obscure and figurative , if an Angel signifies at any time , a company of men ; the scriptures alleged shew it not . For though there is no Angel or messenger mentioned , but there is a people also implied , to whom he is a messenger ; as there is no Pastor , but implieth a flock ; yet is not the Pastor the flock , nor the Angel the people . Special persons are rather noted by the Angels in my judgement . To take the Angel for a company of the most syncere and holy men ; is further from the mark : seing some are written to , in whom little zele or sinceritie can be gathered , Rev. 3. 1. 15. and to passe by the officers , and direct the Letters to private persons , and such especially ; is not according to order ; encommended by Christ to the Church , 1 Cor. 14. 40. Answer . Lastly ( sayth M. S. ) in all likelyhood there were some extraordinary men yet living in the Churches , eyther Prophets or Evangelists , that had extraordinarie gifts , whose zele and holynes might win them special estimation in the Churches : in regard whereof it might be the holy Ghost intending his Epistles to the whole Church , cheefly directeth them to these Persons so qualified , as men best able to prevayl with the Church , and caleth them Angels , whether one or more : as Iohn the Baptist is caled an Angel. Mark. 1. 2. Replie Any thing hath more likelihood with Mr. Sm. then that which is most likely to be true . Can this have all likelihood , that the Evangelists or Prophets extraordinarie , on whose * foundation Christs Church is builded , should come to that corrupt estate , which some of these Angels were come into ? Rev. 3. 1. 15. Hath it al likelihood that such as were officers of all the Churches in generall , should be intitled Angels of particular Churches ? But it seemeth M. Sm. thinketh the name Angel must needs import some zelous or godly person : wherin he is mistaken . For the Angels are the † starrs in the firmament of the Church , and of these starrs or Angels , many are “ cast by the Dragons tayl , from heaven to earth , and some have * the key of the bottomlesse pit ; & some Angels † hold the wind of Gods spirit from blowing on the earth . So that the Angels or starrs in the book of Revelation , usually signify the ministers of the Churches , whither good or evil . Who rather in likelihood haue the title of angels or messengers given unto them , both from the like title given by God himself to the Preists of Israel , Mal. 2. 7. and by the Iewes common phrase , who called him that was cheif ruler in their Synagogues , Sheliach tsibbur , that is the Legate or Messenger of the congregation ; which name Sheliach the Rabbines * use for Maleach an Angel ; and the Chaldee paraphrast putteth Meshammesh that is , a Minister , in the sted . Now Christ used to speak familiarly and to the understanding of the people , & so I doubt not but he dooth here . And although it be questionable whither there may be moe pastors then one in a Church ; yet see I no likelihood of moe then one here ; though many Elders . For the Pastor both by his name ¶ gift & “ imployment , hath special charge of the flock in such things as Christ writeth of to these Churches . And as Archippus in the Church at Colosse is in special charged to † take heed to his Ministerie to fulfil it , ( though it is to be thought there were moe Elders with him , as * in al other Churches : ) so mought Polycarpus ( the Pastor in Iohns time of the Church in Smyrna , as ‘“ writers record ; ) be * written to in special , to look to his Ministerie , and so the other Pastors , the Angels , in their severall Churches ; that by them Christs mind , mought be signified to the congregations . This course God taketh usually ; his messengers the watchmen are to hear the word at his mouth , and give the people warning from him Ezek. 3. 17. Things that concerned the whole Church of Israel , were first spoken from God to Moses , from Moses to the Elders , from them to the people : Exod. 19. 3. 7. and Exod. 12 , 1 , 3 , 21. God doth nothing but he reveleth his secret to his servants the prophets , Amos. 3. 7. So in this Revelation , God † gave it to Christ , Christ to an Angel , ( properly so called ; ) the Angel to Iohn : and Iohn writeth to the Angel of the church , the Minister : that by him it may come to al the Congregation . Thus have we heard the reasons and arguments whereby M. Sm. laboureth to manifest that the triformed presbyterie ( as he calleth it ) consisting of three kinds of Elders , Pastors , Teachers , Rulers , is none of Gods ordinance , but mans device : and Antichristian . wherein what weaknes or vanity rather , hath appeared , the judicious reader , may discern ; & how litle cause this chalenger had , to cry out the second time for an answer , with , * loe , we protest against them to have a false government of a triformed presbyterie , But Christ who hath set these for officers in his church , and holdeth al the starrs in his right hand ; wil rescue & deliver them from the hand of aliants , “ whose mouth talketh vanitie , and their right hand is a right hand of falshood . OF THE TREASVRIE . THe last point of difference from us Mr. Smyth setteth down thus † We hold that in contributing to the church treasurie , there ought to be both a separation from them that ar without , and a sanctification of the whole action by prayer and thanksgiving . Of these & other points about the Deacons office , he speaketh * after in his book . Wherein , if he would have his readers think we differ in al , he notably abuseth both them and us . But of the two points mentioned in his article , I will breifly intreat . First , for the separatiō frō thē vvithout , thus he writeth “ There ought to be a separation in almes and contribution to the treasurie , as wel as in other parts of our spiritual cō●union . Act. 4. 32. & 5. 13. 2 Cor. 6. 17. Act. 2. 42. Heb. 13. 16. 2 Cor. 8. 7. therf●●e they that are without , if they give any thing , must lay it a part severally from the treasurie , & it must be imployed to common use . Mat. 27. 6. 7. How M. S. gathereth his proposition frō those scriptures , & how farr he wil stretch them , I cannot tel : the first place ( Act , 4 , 32. ) mentioneth cōmunitie of al goods among the saincts : the second place Act. 5. 13. sheweth how no other man durst joyn unto thē : the third place 2 Cor. 6. 17. requireth Gods people to come out and separate from unbeleevers , and touch no unclean thing . If he match these things thus togither , as if the goods of unbeleevers ar uncleā , & not to be touched or received of the Saincts , he misseth of Pauls intent : for upon this ground , that † the earth is the Lords , and the plentie of it : the Apostle proveth it lawful for Christians to partake with unbeleevers at their table in * whatsoever things is set before them : so that meat drink , clothing , or money may be received from them : neither are these or any like outward things , the unclean things that he forbids to touch , 2 Cor. 6. 17. Consequently , if we may goe to their table , we may hav them at ours : if in our povertie we may receiv releef of thē : in their povertie , we may and should releev them : wherfore there is that cōmunion in these carnal things permitted : which in spiritual things , as prayer , sacraments &c. is unlawful : & though it be sayd Act 2. 42. they continued in the Apost . doctrine , fellowship , breaking of bread , & prayer : yet he that shal gather we may have no more communion with an unbeleever in eating & drinking , then in prayer ; mistaketh quite . We know that to the defiled & unbeleeving no thing is pure , “ as Paul sayth , but unto the pure al things are pure : and if an idol cānot defile Gods creature so , but a Christian may † use it , ( so it be not with offence ) neither can the idolater . In some outward things , I observe difference between the Iewes state and ours . They went not in to , nor ate with men uncircūcised , Act. 10. 28. & 11 , 3. we go in to men unbaptised , & eat with them , 1 Cor. 10 , 27. They did not eat of al meats set before thē by infidels , Dan. 1. 8. we do eat of al that is set before us by such , 1 Cor. 10. 25. 26 , 27. They admitted not an uncircumcised into the temple Eze. 44 9. Act. 21 , 28 , 29. we forbid not any unbaptised to come into our assemblies . 1 Cor. 14. 23 — 25 , Notwithstanding his I find amōg them , that Solomon asked & received outward things as timber for the temple , * of Huram King of Tyre : & king Darius gave “ of his owne revenues towards the tēple & worship of God , & it was not refused . In Israel I find not that any admitted into the publik place of the word and prayers , was forbidden there if he would to contribute : neither any such law made by Christ. Rather the ground layd by the Apostle sheweth the contrarie : if the Gentiles ( sayth he ) be made partakers of their spiritual thinges , their duetie is also to minister unto them in carnal things . Rom. 15. 27. Vnbeleevers are admitted to the ministerie of the word in Christian assemblies , & so made partakers of our spiritual things ; if then & there they wil give of their carnal things , upon what ground may we refuse them ? It is alleged , how 2 Cor. 8. 7. the communion of almose is called a grace , and in Heb. 13. 16. a sacrifice . I acknowledge it thus to be in the saincts , whither they give it in publik or private . For when he sayth , † to do good and to communicate forget not , for with such sacrifices God is wel pleased ; he meaneth it not onely of publik contribution in the church , but of private distribution to any at any time . Paul brought almose and offrings to his nation Act. 24. 17. and himself received such a sacrifice from the Philippians , Philip. 4. 18. And if any one Christian in private had sent him the like , had it not been a sacrifice also ? Wherfore the Almose of the Saincts are sacrifices , though one give to another * in secret : yea if a Christian releev “ an unbeleever in povertie and distresse , it is a sacrifice and sweet odour to God. If therfore upon this ground we may not receiv it of unbeleevers in the publik Church , because it is in the saincts a communion of grace and sacrifice : how may we receiv it of such in private ? But ( sayth M. Sm. ) they that are without if they give any thing , must lay it apart , several from the treasurie , & it must be imployed to common use . Mat. 27. 6. 7. This position I wil not absolutely condemn : neyther can I yet grant it , for the proof is insufficient . For wheras the Iewes ( Mat. 27 ) would not put Iudas wages into their treasurie , it was not because he was one without ; for Iudas was a Iew , no strāger unto them : but because it was the price of blood , therfore they mought not put it into the treasurie . This teacheth us , that goods gotten by violence , extorsion , murder , theft or other like evil way : may not be put into the treasurie , though the members of the Church do offer them . But this is no more for those without , then for those within . And for common use of al unbeleevers gifts ; I suppose this example wil not bear it out . For if in the povertie and distresse of Christs church , they which are not of the same , minister releif thereunto , ( which if they doe not , it shal be one reason of their * condemnation at the day of judgment : ) hath not the church libertie to use & injoy these benefits for themselves , seing † the earth is the Lords and the plentie thereof ? must they needs bestow it for the behoof of strangers , as was Iudas hire ? I am otherwise minded , for the reasons before rendred . Howbeit concerning these things if any shall better inform us , by the word of God , we shal be willing to receiv it . For the latter branch , that it should be sanctified with blessing or thanks giving to God , we do wel approve ; upō that general ground of thanks unto God for al his benefits : and as any do give or send more special releef , so more special thanks to be rendred therfore , as we are directed , 2 Cor. 9. 12 — 15. Albeit for the manner of performing this thing , as whither a special prayer is to be made before the contributiō , & a special thanksgiving after : or whither in the general prayers of the Church , it is to be sanctified among other the publik actions ; there may be some question , and I wil not contend : let every one use herein , the wisedom that God giveth them . Onely I do observ , how M. Sm. himself makes * a quere , at what time of the Lords day , and after what manner the treasurie is to be collected : which sheweth in him no certaintie for the form of this busines . & I doubt not but as he , so we al may be to seek , for the most covenient māner & order of doing many things : wherein if any lust to be contentious , I say with the Apostle , “ we have no such custome , neither the churches of God. A FEW OBSERVATIONS UPON SOME OF M. SMYTHES Censures , in his answer to M. Bernard . Mr Smyth in his “ late book , caled Parallels , censures &c. seeks occasion to censure some things which I had written in answer to Mr. Bern. but cheifly insisteth upon the question of ecclesiastical goverment , wherabout he chargeth me with antichristianisme . If it were not for others that may stumble at this reproch , I would bear it in silence ; minding my adversarie so fickle and unconstant , as he holdeth almost to nothing that himself hath written ; and I would restin Gods work , who as already he hath made this man † like unto a wheel , so , if he repent not , in due time will make him † like stubble before the wind . For from the faith which he defended in that his book he presently after , in great mesure fel away himself . The constitutiō of our Church , ( in which estate himself then professed to be with us , ) he writeth of it thus “ I am bould to pronounce &c. our true constitution to be the most honorable and bewtiful ornament of our Church ; more glorious then our true Ministerie , worship , and goverment . Contrary to this , a few dayes after , he setts out The character of the Beast , wherin ( having dissolved & forsaking his former true and glorious constitution , ) he exclaimeth against us , ( as before * I haue shewed , ) as having a false Church falsly constituted , and therfore no one ordinance of the Lord true among us . Thus † Wormwood fell from heaven . Agayn in this answer to Mr. Bernard he acknowledgeth , “ the apostate Church of the 10. tribes in the old Testament to be a Church falsly constituted ; and so the Churches of Antichrist in the N. Testament : contraryweise in his Character of the Beast , seking shifts for his anabaptisme , he sayth † Israels apostasie did not destroy the true constitution of the Church , but Antichrists doeth , &c. I leave these and other like flowers of contradiction , for others to gather that deal in that controversie . Onely because his answer to Mr. Bern. seemeth to be written in defence of our cause , and so may be taken of posteritie : I would have the reader take notice , that the silver there is mixt with drosse and the wine , with the * gal of aspes . As where Mr. Sm. sayth , that “ to the constitution of the typical Church , ( meaning the church of Israel ) there was not required true holynes but ceremonial cleannes . This is a false and blasphemous assertiō , injurious to Gods holy majestie , as making him to constitutea Church of hypocrites : & it is evidently overthrown by the covenants made between God and them ; Gen. 17. Exod. 19. 5. 6. 8. Exod. 20. and 21. &c. and 24. 3. 4. 7. 8. Levit. 19. 2. with 1. pet . 1. 15 16. Deut. 5. 1. 2. 3. and 26. 17. 18. 19. and 29. 10. 11. 12. 13. &c. So when he sayth , the Israelites * did worship to repentance , we doo worship from repentance : therfore they might and did worship , therby to reconcile themselves to God , we being reconciled to God and accepted in Christ , doe proceed to offer to the Lord the calves of our lips , the best grace we have with us , first men declare their repentance ▪ and then we receive them into our cōmuniō to worship with us : with thē first men were received into typical cōmuniō , and then they were trayned up to repentance and faith in Christ &c. These & the like distinctions Mr. Sm. hath fetched out of his own hart , not from the word of God : for although ther be differences many between them and us , as touching outward rites and services , ended & abolished by Christ , ( as the Epistle to the Ebrues sheweth ; ) yet as touching the substance of their religion , worship , constitution &c. as touching repentance , faith , reconciliation to God &c. ther was no such differences as Mr. Sm. feighneth . They had the law to shew them their fyn , and to bring them to Christ : so have we . Mat. 5. 17. Rom. 3 30. 31 and 7. 7. — 12. 21. &c. Iam. 2. 8. 9. 10. 11. We have the gospel , to shew us our righteousnes by Christ , without works of the law : so had they , Heb. 4. 2. Levit. 26 42 — 45. with Luk. 1. 54. 55 ▪ 72. 73. Deut. 30. 1. — 12. 13. 14. with Rom. 10. 5. 6. — 8. Gen. 15. 6. Psal. 32. 1. 2. with Rom. 4. 6. &c. 1 Cor. 10. 1. 2. 3. 4. Hebr. 11. Onely in the manner of administration the Law & gospel , ther be differences manifested . Also when he * sayth , that the Iewes moral uncleannes did not pollute their ceremonial communion ; that their real wickednes did not pollute their ceremonial or typical CHURCH , worship and communion ; but lawfully they might have typical communion in typical worship , that were typically clean , though they were wicked in deed : these assertions , manifest M. S. to be not onely a typical but a real seducer and deceiver of minds in deed ; who would make us beleeve that if a man in Israel had but touched his own wife lying † in her child-bed , or put aapart for her disease ; if he came to worship in ●●e tabernacle , and had not washed and clensed himself according to the law , he polluted the Church and communion of the Saincts : but though he had committed adulterie with his neighours wife , and came into the tabernacle in his syn to worship , without repentance ; yet he polluted not the Church , but lawfully mought have communion in the word , prayer , sacrifices &c. which unclean doctrine is evidently condemned , by these and many other like scriptures . Levit. 4. 2. 3. 13. 14. 22. 23. 27. 28. 35. Levit. 6. 2 — 7. Num. 15. 22. 23. 24. 27. 29. 30. 31. Levit. 19. 17. Levit. 18. 29. 30. Iosh. 22. 16. 17. 18. 20. But upon these and like rotten grounds , M. S. hath now sought to build his towr of Anabaptisme , which the breath of the Lord , wil throw down upon his head . Although therfore the cause which M. S. then had in hand was good , and many good things are in that book ; yet the * dead flyes have caused to stink , and putrified the ointment of the apothecarie : as in these so in other points , which the wise must observe . Leaving therefore those things , I come to the matter which he maketh against me , and in his foresayd book of Parallels , pag. 67. hath thus inveighed . But Mr Ains . steppeth up with a new kind of Antichristianisme , never heard of before : and he teacheth us , if we wil beleeve him , that Christs ruling power is in the Eldership ; and that the Pope and Prelates , ar * not Antichrists , for taking into their hands the power of the multitude , but the power of Christ. Here first Mr S. maketh his owne collection , to be my assertion . I sayd not , neyther would say thus absolutely , Christs ruling power is in the Eldership , my words are these ( Counterp . pa. 176 ) We acknowledge Christ to have ordeyned a * Presbyterie or Eldership , and that in † every Church : for to “ teach and rule them by his owne word and lawes . That which I wrote , I plainely confirmed by scriptures in the margine , which the reader may serch and judge of : neyther hath this adversarie taken them away ; or sayd ought against them ; or yet set them downe in his book ( where he * printed my words ) for his reader to take notice of . That which I have written , is further confirmed , for the substance of it , by Mr Sm. himself , in the very same book of Parallels , the last page but one , where he hath set down this argument . The goverment of the primitive Apostolik institution , was by a college of Pastors , or presbyterie . The goverment of the English assemblies , is by an antichristian Prelate and his officers . Therfore , The goverment of the English assemblies is not the primitivs Apostolik goverment . The maior is evident ; &c. Agayn , in this very passage , where he treateth of popular goverment , he is driven into such straits , as force him to say : † We dispute not whither the Elders must rule or not : but we dispute who hav the negative voice , &c. and a little after : yet we say the Elders are to lead and govern al persons and causes of the Church . Who now wil not wonder , at this mans malice , to charge me with Antichristianisme for my writing : and himself in the same book , to write as he hath doon . And were i● in deed Antichristianisme , as he sayth , which I have stepped up with : yet he overlasheth with his tongue , in calling it a new kind , & neverheard of before ; considering what he had heard before of M. Bernard , ( if not of others ) as the opinion of those that he caleth Puritans . But let us turn the edge of his own argument against himself , thus : The goverment of the primitive Apostolik institution , was by a college of of pastors or presbyterie . ( This M. S. himself defendeth , ) But popular goverment by the multitude , is not the goverment by a college of Pastors or presbyterie . Therfore , popular goverment by the multitude ( which yet M. Sm. would also plead for , ) is not the goverment of the primitive Apostolik institution . Agayn his argument helpeth me thus , The goverment of the primitive apostolik institution is not Antichristianisme . The goverment which J plead for , in answer to M. Bern. is the goverment of the primitive Apostolik institution ; ( for it is the goverment by the Presbyterie , ) Therfore the goverment which I plead for is not Antichristianisme . Thus mought M. Sm. have been better advised what he censured in me : if he had duly weighed , what he wrote himself . In his confutation of my writing , he first would * have it remembred , that the power of Christ which they speak of , is a ministeriall delegated power , given to man &c. I answer , that I had to deal with M. Bernards book , and knew nothing at all , of 〈◊〉 which had passed between M. S. and him : but finding him to have set down things so badly , as that he mought make his reader beleev , there was no other difference , between Papist , protestant , puritan , and Brownist , ( as he caleth them , ) concerning church goverment ; then onely who should administer the same : whither the Pope , or a Prelate , or the presbyterie , or the multitude : I thought it needful in my answer , to shew the reader a furder difference , even in the power and jurisdiction it self , which whosoever do administer , they make themselves Antichrists : seeing the Pope & al Papal prelates , challenge such ruling power , as incrocheth upon Christs own right : besides their usurping of the power of the church . And where I say that the Pope is Antichrist , not for taking into his hands the power of the multitude , but of Christ , to rule and govern the church as head of the same : my meaning was not altogither to free the Pope of Antichristianitie , for taking the power of the multitude , which I acknowledge to be a heighnous syn in him : but for to shew by way of comparison , that the other syn is much greater , to usurp the power of Christ. And thus I write , not onely from the general equitie of the law , which † maketh a syn against God , to be much more then a syn against man : but also from the like speeches in the scriptures . For when Ieremie sayd in the Lords name to Israel , * J spake not to your fathers , nor commanded them when J brought them out of the land of Aegypt , concerning burnt-offrings and sacrifices : but this thing I commanded them , obey my voyce &c & when Paul “ sayd Christ sent me not to baptise but to preach , &c. neyther of them denyed simply , the things which God had plainly † spoken , & * Paul practised ; but onely by way of comparison : even so doe I. And yet if I should stand upon fit and proper termes , I would not cal the Pope Antichrist , for doing that which the people in Christian libertie should do : but for doing that which Christ onely is to do , who is L. and head of the church . Even as the Apostle Iohn maketh such to be Antichrists in his dayes , as denyed Iesus “ to be the Christ , or come in the flesh : so al that in these dayes , deney or oppugn Christ , are properly Antichrists : and they that bereave the brethren of their libertie , are tyrans & oppressors of the church . But as things ar some time taken largely , he that synneth against his neighbour , may be sayd to syn against † God & * Christ. Anabaptists , Arrians , and al other heretiks , ar Antichrists : & so I acknowledge the Pope for robbing the church of her power , may be called Antichrist . But M. Sm. to help the Pope , if therby he may think to hurt me , pleadeth “ that the Pope doth not assume that power which Christ as king hath in his own hands reserved to himself . This is catholikly spokē of him and very favourably on the Popes part : but how truly , let the sequel shew . The The pope assumeth this power , to be Rector of the universal church ; director of the Lords universal flock : ( P. Bonifac. 8. Sexto . decretal . cap. vbi . ) To be Cephas , that is ( by his interpretatiō ) Caput , the head of the Apostolik church . ( Anaclet . dist . 22. cap. sacrosācta . ) To be Lex animata in terris , a living law in earth ; whose sentence & judgment must stand , as given out of heaven by the mouth of Peter himself . Sext. decret . c. Ab arbitris . glosa . P. Agatho . dist , 19. c. sic omnes . which sentence no man must break nor retract , no mā must dispute or doubt of . ( P. Nicol. 9. q. 3. c. patet . P. Jnnoc . 2. Art. 17. q. 4. Si quis . ) The Pope assumeth this power , to be-set of God over nations and kingdoms , to pluck up , and to root out &c. even to judge the princes of the earth ; to be one and the same head with Christ of the visible church : and therfore every earthly creature if he wil be saved , must of necessitie be subject to the Pope . ( Bonifac. 8. Extrav . c. unam sanctam . De maior . & obed . ) He by Romish religion , is that one † Pastor , over the one fold : God himself and he his vicar , have but one consistorie . ( Hosti ens . in cap. Quant . de trans . praeb . ) under his feet are al things subdued , * sheep and oxen & beasts of the field , fowls of heaven , and fishes of the sea , that is to say , ( in catholik interpretation ) Iewes , heretiks , pagans , Christen men of al sorts , Angels in heaven , and sowles in purgatorie Antonin . sum . maior . 3. part . dist . 22. As for emperours and kings , ( whom God himself honoureth “ vvith his ovvn title of Gods , ) they may serv to hold the Popes stirrop , or kisse his foot : for they be more inferior to him , then lead is inferiour to gold . P. Gelasius . Dist. 96. cap. duo . Wherfore his doctors have kept decorum , in giving him the titles of the highest God ; as Optimus , Maximus , most good and most great , & Supremum in terris numen , ( Staplet . in princ . fid . doct . praef . ad Greg. 13 ) Yea Dom. Deus nosterpapa , our Lord God the Pope , Can. Extravag . Iohan. 22. c. cum inter . In glosa . These and many moe like testimonies vvhich might be alleged , vvil tel every wise hart , whither the pope assumes not the power which Chr. hath reserved to himself : and whither M. S. had not a greater splen against me , then against the Pope : when to contradict what I had written , he sets down , * that properly the Pope is not antichrist , for chalenging Christs kingly power proper to himself : & in another place also sayth , † The pope is not Antichrist , for that he usurpeth that regal power which is proper to Christ : but is antichristian for usurping the delegated power . &c. As for his freindly qualifications , * that the Pope claimeth to be a ministerial head ▪ vnder Christ , & in that he dooth many actions proper to Christ himself , it is but the misinterpretation of his ministerial headship , not understanding how far it extendeth , &c. these are but colours to hide the filthines of that skarlet whore , who surmounting in arrogancie all the children of pride , yet wil needs be called servant of the servants of God. But I sett downe , not what the Pope and papal Prelates say they be ; ( for the Divil wil say he is an Angel of light , ) nor what they plainly professe to doe : but what they be & do in deed ; though yet they professe so much , as any forehead might blush to say , the Pope claims not the power proper to Christ alone . And what if I would presse Mr Smythes words as much for the Pope on the other hand , namely that he claimeth to be ministerial Bishop under Christ , & in that he dooth many actions propre to the Church , it is but the misinterpretation of his ministerial office , not understanding how farr it extends , &c. and hereupon conclude , that properly the Pope is not Antichrist for challenging the Churches ruling power propre to it self ; would not this plea be as good as Mr Smythes ? And thus the Pope mought be freed from being Antichrist properly at all ; or els Mr. S. pleading is but litle worth . Agayn , for Papal Bishops among the Protestants , however they utter not such speeches of their power , ( being curbed through fear of the civil magistrate : ) yet their Lordly jurisdiction , which they challenge and usurp over many parishes and provinces , togither with the names of blasphemie upō their foreheads as Lords-spiritual , Archbishops &c. do prove them toincroch upō Christs kingly power , and usurp the same ; though neyther they , nor the Pope , nor Belial himself , wil say so much . Next for the goverment by Elders which I proved by scriptures ; Mr Smyth , neyther answering , nor once mentioning the scriptures quoted , seeketh to blind his reader with a * Wee say , and a general disclayming of myne error , ( as he calleth it , ) without conviction . And let the reader observe his manner of disputing against me . At the first , he sayd to me , † This of you deney M. Ains . ( which I think you doe not ) I say you are therein departed from the faith . Behold how his own hart checked him , when he began his invective against me ; it told him , that I denyed not the truth . But he proceeds ; and after he had shewed his own faith , he comes vpon me with an other Jf , and conceles his owne thought , saying , “ If you hold any other faith , it is not the faith of Christ. After drawing to an end , he concludeth a gainst me thus * I doe therfore vtterly disclaim this your error Mr. Ains . as one part of Antichristianisme in your Church . First let us see what mine error is , and then how it is convinced . Is it mine error to hold that Christ hath ordeyned a Presbyterie in everie Church ? why the scriptures which I cited proue it to be truth ; and mine adversary hath nothing to say against it , but yeeldeth it himselfe in the last leaf of his book as before I shewed . Or is it mine error to hold , that this Presbyterie is to teach and rule the Church by Christs owne words & lawes ? This seemeth in deed to be the scandal , which Mr. Sm. stumbleth at , & would thus spurn away . The power ministerial of the Elders ( sayth he ) is rather a leading power , then a ruling power : neyther ar the Elders in al the new Testament ( to my knowledg ) caled rulers Archontes , but overseers leaders , elders , prohistamenoi : wherby the holy ghost would teach , that their power is not to rule but to lead and direct . I doe therfore vtterly disclaim this your error &c. I answer that Mr. Sm. dooth sophisticate & dally with the word Rule , whiles he maketh it to answer onely to the greek word Archein ; which signifieth to rule and reign as Princes ; Mark. 10. 42. Rom. 15 12. wheras he knoweth or may know that other vvords also are fitly translated Rule ; as poimainein , Rev. 2. 7. and proistasthai , Rom. 12 8. and he savv before his eyes , hovv I alleged for teaching and ruling 1. Tim. 5. 17. vvhere this later vvord is used . Which he not knovving , as it seemeth , hovv to translate better , and yet not vvilling to brook the vvord Rule , sayth they are not caled Rulers archontes , but prohistamenoi . He might as vvel have sayd , neyther ar they caled Overseers but Episcopoi , nor Leaders , but hegoumenoi , nor Elders but Presbyteroi ; and so have bleared the simple readers eyes , vvith al Greek vvords , to spoil Christs Ministers of their authoritie , and to make men beleeve they stand but for ciphers . If he be so ignorant of the Greek tongue as he pretendeth , that he vvil neither allovv Prohistamenoi to be translated Rulers , ( vvhich so many Greek authors vvil allovv , ) nor give us an other English vvord for it , I vvil leav him to his ignorance or frowardnes rather , and referr the reader to 1 Tim. 3. 4. 5. 12. where this same Greek word is applied to the ruling or governing of a howse , and of children , which the Apostle after in 1. Tim. 5. 17. and other places , applieth to the ruling of the Church by Elders . So that Mr Sm. may as well teach househoulders , they must not rule their howses or children : as that Elders must not rule the Church , because they be not called Archontes princely-rulers , but prohistamenoi , rulers standing before or over them . Again if this reason of Mr S. be good it hath broke the neck of his popular government ; for it is this ; If Elders be not called Archontes ( Princes or Princely-rulers ; ) then are they not to rule the Church of God. But Elders are not called Archontes . Therefore &c. Which I return upon himself thus , If the multitude of brethren be not called Archontes ; then are they not to rule the Church of God : but the multitude of brethren are not called Archontes ; if they be , let M. S. shew where . yea I might add , that they are not called Overseers , nor Leaders , nor Elders , nor prohistamenoi ; Therfore neyther are they to rule the Church ; and so it is to be without rule or government of man at all ; which if M. Sm. doe hold , it wil be found that himself deneyes the faith . For however it be true , that onely Christ himself ( who is the * Archon or Prince of the kings of the earth , ) is properly the Archon or princely-ruler of the Church , and imperiall power perteyns to him alone : yet he hath given ministerial power and authority to his servants , † poimainein & “ proistasthai , to feed , rule , govern , go before and direct his Church : and who so refuseth them whom he hath sent and set , * refuseth him . Wheras I further added of the Elders set to teach and rule , that vnto them all the multitude , the members , the saincts , ought to obey and submit themselves , as the scriptures teach ; Heb. 13. 17. 1. Pet. 5. 5. this wholsom doctrine Mr. Sm. before misliked and kicked against , in answering Mr. Bern. & seeks to turne it away , with this peremptorie and perverse answer “ To the place Heb. 13. 17. J say the Apostle doth not intend to teach that the whol body of the Church must yeeld to the voice of the Elders , in every thing that they lyst . O notable cavil ! who sayth they must yeeld to every thing the Elders lyst ? Is this a fit answer to casshier the government of the Elders ? Then away also with his popular goverment : for I say , no scripture intendeth to teach that eyther minister or member , must yeeld to the voice of the multitude , in every thing they lyst . If so ; then Aaron had been blamelesse for making the golden calf ; because it was the peoples lyst , and they importuned him thereto Exod. 32. 1. 22. 23. But M. S. proceedeth , saying ; nor that the Eldership hath in their hands the power of Christ to rule contrarie to their liking . I answer , the Elders are to teach and rule the Church by Christs own word and lawes , as I have “ expressed . And herein I presuppose that both the Elders wil teach and rule according unto godlynes , & the people wil obey the godly doctrines & directions of their Elders , without mislike or discontentment . For Christs sheep wil hear his voice ; his kingdom is peaceable ; his subjects loyal and obedient . Now whiles I speak of the ordinary power that the Elders have to teach and rule the Church , as Christ hath constituted it in peace ; it is but from a contentious humour , to obiect , that they have not power to rule contrary to the peoples liking , as if there could be no rule , but when the Elders and brethren are at warr one with another . Of the Church it is written , † the multitude of them that beleeved were of one hart and of one sowl ; yet none ( I think ) doubteth , but ther was rule & goverment amōg them . And of such quiet rule spake I , though M. Sm. would disturb it with his exception ; which he mought also have alledged against the Presbyteries authoritie to pray preach and administer the sacraments ; seing these ar no more to be done contrary to the peoples liking , then rule and goverment : for God hath caled us in peace . So for ought that is yet sayd ; the government by Elders standeth fast . The last battry foloweth . But ( sayth M. S. ) the intent of the Apostle is to show , that all the particular members in all their affaires , must submit themselves to the instruction and guidance of the Elders . For although Christ hath placed the Elders as stewards over the servants yet he hath not appointed them as Lords over his spowse & wife . Your argument therfore ( sayth he ) is a fallacian a coniunctione & divisione thus ; Al the particular members must obey the elders in their lawful instructions and their wholsome admonitions severally ; Ergo the whole body must ioyntly obey the voyce of the Elders . Here M. Sm. running himself into a fallacie , by dividing those that are joyned togither of the Lord , would bear himself out in his evil , by blaming an other first , but without al equitie , as the judicious reader may easily perceiv . For his reason is to this effect , Jf Elders be stewards over the servants , and not Lords over the wife ( the church ) : then is not the church to obey or submit unto them . Where learned the man this logik ? Is there no obedience or submission , thinks he , but unto Lords ? Then is there no obedience ecclesiastical , which the church may yeeld to any save unto Christ , for he is the † onely Lord. But this man is blinded with his erroneous conceipt . For as in civil goverment we are to obey and submit , not onely to the King as unto the superior , but * also to the governours that are sent of him : so in goverment ecclesiastical we are to obey and submit , not onely to the King Christ , but to “ the Elders his ministers sent of him : to the one we submit as to the Lord and King : to the other as to servants and ministers , set over us by the Lord. Agayn , I would fayn know , whither Mr. Sm. thinketh the Elders to be Lords over the particular members ? If he say , yea , I abhor his pride , for it is injurious to Christ the sole Lord of al & every one in the church : if nay , then I detest his sophistrie ; for by the same reason that he disswadeth the whol flock from obedience , he mought also disswade each particular member : which yet he dooth not , but yeeldeth the contrary . Now that the Apostle intendeth not onely the particular mēbers , but the general flock also , is apparant ; First , by his reason which he annexeth , † for they watch for your soules as they that must give accounts . Al good Elders , I ween , do watch as well for the publik church , as for the private members , and shal give account for the whol . If then the Apostles reason be of weight ; the vvhol flock , as vvel as the particular sheep , must obey and submit to such as vvatch over them . Secondly the Apostle sayth elsvvhere , to the Elders of an other church , * take heed to al the flock , wherof the holy ghost hath made you overseers : poimainein , ( that is to feed , rule , govern , guid , direct and doe al other duties of good shepheards unto ) the church of God. Novv these vvords flock & church , mean not particular members , but the general company under charge & guidance . And if the holy Ghost have set Elders and shepherds over the whole flock : can any man doubt , but they must teach rule and direct the whol ? & if they must doe this by authoritie from God : is not the whol flock bound to be taught ruled & directed by them in the Lord ? What perverting of the scripture then is this , that when the Apostle writing to a whol church , to obey and submit unto their guides : it should be restreyned unto particular members for to obey ? Such doctrines fitt rather the confusion of Babylon , then the holy order & goverment of Sion . But it seemeth the stinch of this restreynt , went up into the nose of the man himself as he wrote it : for presently he seeketh to sweeten the yll savor with these flowers : that * Al the saincts shal yeeld obedience to the Elders in things commanded by God : and the Elders shal al of them obey the voyce of the church in things commanded of God. He might also have added that both Elders and people should obey the voyce of any particular person , in things commanded by God. For if the whol church doe syn , and “ any one make it known unto them , and shew them the law of God : they are bound to obey him , & submit to his good coūsel in the Lord. But what is this to the purpose ? The question is into whose hands Christ hath committed the ordinarie teaching guiding governing and ruling of his saincts here on earth . The scriptures * teach , and we accordingly have long since “ professed , that it is into the hands of the Bishops or Elders . This is that which I defend in my answer to M. Bernard : for this , if for any thing , M. S. also inveigheth against me : being indeed against himself also herein . For besides the testimonies fore alleged out of his book , he hath further in the same book written thus , † Christ is not their king , seing he onely ruleth by his own lawes and officers , and not by Antichristian Lords and lawes &c. And agayn , * You refuse Christs testament and his kingdome , and will not have him to reign over you in his own offices and lawes , which is contrarie to these places , Luk. 19. 27. Apoc. 14. 9. 10. 11. Loe here the truth which I defend , confirmed by my adversaries owne penn ; for this is the onely thing which I plead , that Christ ruleth his people , onely by his own lawes and officers , as mine opposite himself granteth : & yet see , what an outcrie he maketh against me , as teaching such Antichristianisme , as was never heard of before . But by his former dispute against the Presbyterie , himselfe is found to be one of those enimies , that wil not have Christ to reign over them , by his own offices and lawes . Wheras he putteth † the question thus , how farr the sheep must obey the Elders which ar shepheards : that is not the point between Mr. Bern. and me , neyther medle I with it : yet if any be desirous to know my mind in general , it is . So farr as the shepheards doe teach rule and direct the sheep in the wayes of Christ , by his owne word and lawes ; so farr at they al jointly and every one severally , bound to obey and submit to their shephards , and no further . For although this be the ordinary way of teaching and governing the Church ; yet if extraordinarily it fal out , that the shepheards walk and lead awry , and the sheep go aright ; then is neyther the whol flock , nor any one sheep to follow or obey them , unlesse they wil fall togither into the ditch . Neyther wil that reason , which M. Sm. so laboureth about , namely that the Ministery is not by succession but by election of the church ; make ought against me : unlesse the man thinketh this consequence good , If Elders be chosen by the Church , then are they not to teach and rule the Church by Christs word and lawes . The contrary rather is true . For if the Church be authorized and commanded of Christ to chose and set Elders over them , for to teach and rule them by his own word and lawes ; and are also commanded to obey and submit themselves unto their Elders : then are the Elders to teach & rule them by Christs word and lawes , and the Church is therin to obey . But the first is true , as the scriptures and reasons forealleged prove ; Therefore alsothe latter . No more wil that similitude of a body , ( which as all parables will easily be perverted , being streyned beyond the purpose of the holy spirit ) help ought against the truth I defend . For as God * hath disposed the members every one of them in the body at his own pleasure , & given them severall faculties , so as all the members have † not one work ; and as the eye for seing , the ear for hearing , the mouth for speaking , &c. doo administer , not for particular mebers onely , but for the whol body : even so the Church hath many members with “ diversities of gifts , and diversities of offices or ministeries ; which they † are to attend unto and execute for the whol body : & the whol , ( not the particular members onely , as this man fansieth ) are to obey and submit unto these distributions & administrations , being al of the Lord , as the Apostle teacheth . And as al the members of the body have not the gift of speaking , seeing , smelling &c. but these are bestowed on special members for the use of al : so in the church , al * are not prophets , or al teachers , or al governours &c. but “ to one is given the word of wisdome , to another the word of knowledge &c. unto the administration of which gifts , by the due offices or members ; al the body is to submit , and obey in the Lord. So that a wonder it is any man should have the face to blame me with Antichristianisme , for disclayming that position which M. Bernard imputed unto us ; namely , that the power of Christ , that is , avthoritie to preach , to administer the sacraments , and to execute the censures of the church , belongeth to the whole church , yea to overy one of them : or for affirming , some special authoritie to be committed to the Elders for reaching and ruling the church by Christs own word and lawes , unto whom the other brethren are to obey , alwayes in the Lord. What would it be but a mere confusion and abuse of the holy ordinances of the gospel , if every one in the church should administer & perform the works of al Christs ministers : which they may , if the power and authoritie perteyneth unto them : for who may abridge the saincts of these things ? And most strange it is , that M. S. ( if any thing may be strange in him , ) would thus inveigh against me : when in handling this very poynt against M. Bern. he writeth thus * Wherefore I say unto you , that the gifts of preaching , administration of the sacraments , and governing are given unto some men , but the offices and officers indued with these gifts are given unto the church &c. If but some men in the church , have the gifts of preaching , administration of sacraments & governing : wil M. S. blame me for deneying this position of M. Bernard , that Christs power and authoritie to preach , administer the sacraments &c. belongeth to every one in the church . Have they authoritie to preach or govern , which have not the gifts of preaching or government ? I leave the judgment of this controversie , to every wise hart . And this I hope may suffice for clearing my self of Antichristianisme , in that which I wrote about church goverment : being the mayn thing which M. Sm. hath wrested against me . Other things there are which he girdeth at breifly : and which I omit to strive with him about , whom I see to be set upon debate . And how adversarylike he dealeth with me , in mangling , corrupting and depraving my answers , for his advantage : they that compare them with his book may see . Let this one be an instance . To an objected error against us , I thus answered : † Neither is this position set down in our words , ( to my knowledge ) neither doth Mr. Bernard take away , but confirm rather the thing that we hold : for he granteth that they offend God , which may and doe not ordinardie ( having meanes offred ) live in a church rightly constituted : & we grant , that many of Christs subiects for want of meanes , doe not live in a true constituted church . If therfore he were not a caviller , he would not have reckned this among our errors . This my answer M. S. of his liberalitie hath set down in * his book thus . M. Ains . answering M. Bern. pag. 173. vseth these words . Neither is this position set down in our words , ( to my knowledge : ) if therfore M. Bern. were not a caviller , he would not have reckned this among our errors . Thus having dealt more injuriously with my words , then the unjust steward “ did with his Masters reckning , in abating more then half of my writing , without so much as any note or mark to intimate of further matter in my answer , ( which he maketh almost senselesse ) : he procedeth to charge me with forsaking the defence of the truth and then runns on to justifie that he had written to Mr. Bernard which I knew not of . But for his injurious dealing with me , and persecuting this poor church ( which deserved better of him ) with his pen in publik , as the world now may see he hath don in high measure : I leave him unto God for mercy or judgment . Whose hand as it is heavie upon him already , in giving him over from error to error , & now at last to the abomination of Anabaptisme : so wil the same hand stil follow him unto furder judgement if he do not repent . But I vvish he may find grace in the eyes of the Lord. FINIS . Faults escaped ▪ Pag. 12. line 2. for tunea read tuned . pag. 15. line 2. for alled , read called pag. 98. in . the last line , read wel ruling , and painful . Other faults may easily by discerned and pardoned . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A13202-e330 * Prov. 9. 13. † Differen . Preface . “ Parall . p. 105. * Rev. 13. 4 ▪ † Charact. in the epist. * Psal. 75. 5 “ Iob. 41. 16. * 2 Pet. 2. 18. † Charact. epistle . “ Prov. 28. 25. † Psal. 5. 9. * Princip . &c. Differ . &c. Charact of the Beast . † Mat. 7. 15. * Psal. 107. 42. Notes for div A13202-e730 * This is the third of his fower general arguments , which he offred to our Church in writing , at the secōd dayes publik cōferēce ‡ In the reason annexed to his second general Arg. Differēce &c. pag. 12. ‡ In a reason annexed to the 1. general argument . † Differēce &c. in the preface . * in the same preface . * Prou. 5. 6 ▪ † Gen. 17. * Charact. of the beast in the Epist. † Pro. 20. 1. † Pro. 4. 17. * Ps. 144. 1 † Psal. 18. ●2 . The homonymie cleared † latreuontes . ” latreuo . * sebesthai . ‡ sebomeno●● . ” sebontai . * Iob. 1. 9. Ion. 1. 9. † proskunesai . ” prosekunesan . ” prosekunesan . * Deut. 5. 6 — 15. † Differēc . pag. 18. Mark 9. 49. with Levit. 2. 11 13. & 9. 24 1 Cor. 5. 6 ▪ 8. † Act. 2. 4 & 11. 28. * Differēc . pag. 1. † 1 Cor. 14. 3. * 2 Tim. 3. 16. 17. † elenchon . * Act. 13. 10. † vers . 9. * Act. 13. 40. 41. ” Act. 28. 25. — 28. * pag. 1. † Isa. 1. &c. Jer. 2. &c. Mat. 5. & 6. & 7. &c. Act. 7 & 13. &c. ‡ Differenc . p , 27. * Deut. 17. 8. 9. 11. 12. † Act. 3. 22 — 26. † Mat. 5. &c. vnto Mat. 26. * Mat. 26. and 27. “ Luk. 24. 51. † Psal. 110. 1. with 1 Cor. 15. 24. 25. * Mat. 13. 19. † Luk. 4. 43 * Luk 8. 10 † Act. 20. 25. & 28. 23. † Deut 31. 9 “ Joh. 20. 31 * Nehem. 9 20. † Nehem. 9. 3. 4. 5. &c ▪ 1 Sam ▪ 10. 5. 6. * Rom. 3. 1. 2. 3. & 9 , 4 , 5. & 11. 1 , 17. 18. &c. † Charact. of the beast p. 16. * Act. 26. 7. † Sussoma Ephe. 3. 6. * Differēc . pag 19 * Differ . pag , 20 , 21 † Exod. 40. 6. 28. 29. * ver . 30. 32 “ Exod. 29 42. 43. Lev 1 , 3. & 8. 3. 4. † Lev. 6. 16 26. * Exo. 26. 15. 16. “ Exo. 27. 1 † & 40. 19. * ver . 28. “ Lev. 6. 12 13. † 2 Chro. 1. 3. 5. 6. ” Exod. 26. 1. 29. * Exo. 25. 39. † Exo. 40. 22 — 24. † Exo. 4. 22 * Ps. 135. 4 “ Deut. 7. 6. 7. † Deut. 33. 26. * vers .. 29. “ Revel . 19. 11 — 21. † Lev. 17. 2 4 — 7. * Rev. 9 , 20 “ Lev. 6. 16. † Ps. 65. 4. * Psal. 84. 2. 10. “ 2 Chro. 29. 27 — 29 † Luk. 1. 9. 10. &c. * Num. 6. 23. Lev. 9. 22. † pag. 21. * Rev. 11. 1. “ Ezek. 40. 3. 5. Zach. 2. 1. 2. † Ezek. 40. 47. & 48. 30. Zach. 2 , 2. * Rev. 21. 15. “ Rev. 11. 2 † Jer. 12. 7. * Ier. 20. 4. “ Isa. 63. 18 † Rev. 11. 2 * Neh●m . 11. 1. Isa , 48 , 2. & 52 1 , Mat. 4. 5. † Psal : 51. 18. & 87. & 122. Isa : 60 , Revel : 21. “ Psal. 79 1. * Rev. 17 † Rev. 21 “ Psal. 79. 2. † Rev. 11. 9 † Deut. 3● . 10. * Neh. 8. 7. 8. “ Eze. 1. 3. Ier. 1. 1. 2. † pag. 19. † 1 Cor. 11. 10. * ver . 7. “ ver . 14. 15. † vers . 4. † Exod. 28. 40. Ezek. 44. 18. * vers . 4. 8. “ vers . 7. † vers . 9. * vers . 10. “ 1 Cor. 14. 34. 1 Tim. 2. 11. 12. † 2 Sam. 15 30. * Est. 6. 12 “ 1 Cor. 11. 4. † Plutar. in vita Demosthenis . * Exo. 28. 40. Zach. 3. 5. † 1 Cor. 13. 13. * 1 Cor , 14 “ v. 24 , 25. † ver . 30. ” Mat. 8 , 2. * Luk. 5 , 12. “ Neh. 8. 5 , 6 , & 9 , 3 † Rev. 19 , 10. * 1 Cor. 14 3. “ 1 Cor. 14 3. † Rom. 1 , 9. * Differ . p. ● . † Pag. 23. * Charact. of the beast pag. 26. † Col. 2. 11. 12. † Deut. 33. 10. * Act. 15. 21. † Luk. 4. 16 17 — 21. “ Isa. 59. 21 † Mic. 2. 11 1 King. 22. 24. † Pag. 19. * Pag. 17. † Pag. 20. * Psal. 1. & 49. & 78. & 91. &c. * 1 Tim. 6. 4. 5. † Differen . pag. 4. * Num. 10 2. † Exod. 28. 33-35 . † Iob. 4. 16 “ Ps. 1●5 . 5 * 2 Tim. 3. 16. † Rom. 4. 3. & 9. 17. “ Joh. 5. 39 * Rev. 2. 7. 11. 17. 29. * Prov. 12 19. † Col. 2. 17 “ Exod. 25 † pag. 22. † Iude. 13. * See before pag. 2. “ Jer. 9. 3. † Differēce . pag. 5. * As that mentioned Heb. 9. 19. † Deut. 31. 26. ¶ vers . 27. “ Ioh. 12. 48. * Deut. 30. 14. † Psal. 19. 7 8. “ 2 Pet. 1. 19. ¶ Ioh. 20. 31. * 1 Ioh. 1. 4 † Deut , 19. 19. Psal. 1. 2. Pro. 1. 1 2. * Pro. 22. 20 , 21. “ Deut. 31. 10 — 13. ⸪ Act. 13 15. & 15. 21. † Luk. 4. 16. 17. * 2 Tim. 3. 15. 16. 2 Pet. 1. 19 “ 1 Cor. 4. 6. ⸫ Jsa . 34. 16. † Joh. 5 , 39 , * Psal. 40. 8 , 9. * Psal. 37. 30. 31. “ Deu. 6. 6 † 1 Tim. 4. 13. 2 Tim. 3 , 15 — 17. & 4. 13. ⸫ 2 Ioh. 11 3 Joh. 13. with 1 Ioh. 1 , 3 , 4. & 2 12. &c. † Col. 2. 8. * Gal. 4 , 3. 9. “ Col. 2. 11. Gal. 5 , 2 , 3. † Col. 2. 16. Gal. 4. 10. * Heb. 10. 4. “ Psal. 40. 6. 7. † Gal. 3 , 24 * Col. 2. 15. † Deut. 30. 6. 11 — 14. with Rom. 10. 4. 5 — 8. * Rō . 3. 21. “ Ioh , 5 , 39 † 2 Pet. 1. 19 “ Ier. 17. 9. † Ps. 19. 7. 8. 9. * 2 Pet. 1. 21. † Gen , 3 , 1. † Differen . pag. 6. * pag. 5. &c. † Differen . pag. 6. 1. Reason . Answer . † Differ●n . pag. 7. * Joh. 13. 12. 13. &c. † Luk 4. 16 “ Sanders Rock Pref. * ibidē ch . 9. 2 Reason . Answer . † Exod. 20. 18. 19. * Ex. 24. 7. † Exod. 34. 30. 31. &c. “ Heb. 12. 19. 20. * 2 Cor. 3. 7 ¶ Ioh. 5. 39 † vers . 9. * 2 Tim. 3. 15. “ 2 Tim. 3. 15. † Rom. 7 , 8. * Eze. 36. 26 , 27. Heb. 8. 10. “ Ps. 52. 4. 3. Reason . 4. Reason . Answer . † Rom. 9 , 16 * Diff. p. 7. “ pag. 6. “ Ioh. 21. 25. † 2 Tim. 3. 16. 17. * 1 Tim. 6. 11. “ Deut. 33 10. † Neh. 8. 8. Act. 15. 21 2 Chron. 17 9. 5. Reason . Answer . * 2 Pet. 1. 19. 6. Reason . Answer . 7. Reason . * Psal. 10. 17. Answ. † 1 King. 8. 38. 39. “ Num. 11 25. 26. 1 Sam. 10. 5. 6. * 1 Cor. 14. Act. 19. 6 8. Reason . Answer . * Rev. 2. 1. 7. 9. Reason . Answer . † Deut. 4. 12. “ Exod. 24. 3. 4. * Mark. 3. 17. † Rev. 1. 19. & 2. 1. * Rev. 1. 3. † Deut. 27. 18. 10. Reason . Answ. * pag. 12. ¶ pag. 33. * Pro. 22. 14. 1. Obiectiō . Answ. Replie . † Mat. 22. 31. 32. “ Levit. 23. 34. 36. * Nehe. 8. 14. — 18. “ Act. 13. & 15. ¶ Deut. 33 10. * pag. 19. † pag. 20. “ pag. 6. * Eph. 4. 14 2. Obiect . Answer . Reply . † Nehē . 8. 13 — 18. * Col. 4. 16. “ Rev. 1. 3. † Diff. p. 20. * Psa. 73. 9. pag. 1. † pag. 6. * Cyril . con . Julian . lib. 2. & 3. &c “ Eph. 2. 12 Answer . † Col , 4 , 16. Replie . * 1 Thes. 5. 27. “ 2 Thes. 2 15. † Pro , 30. 5 ▪ 6. * Rev. 22. 18. 19. “ Dan. 5. 25 — 28. † Psa , 12. 6 Answer . Rep. † Rom. 15. 4. & 4. 23. 24. 3. Obiect . Answer . Rep. “ 1 Tim. 1. 3. † 1 Tim. 3. 14. 15. * 1 Tim. 4. 13. 4. Obiect . † Luk. 4 , 16 * Neh. 8. 13 , 14. “ 2 Tim. 4. 13. † Ps. 9. 16. † Diff. p. 10. † Mat. 1. 23. * Isa. 7. 14. * Act. 2. 4. † Rev. 1. 8. * 2 Pet. 1. 21. † 2 Tim. 3. 16. “ Eccles. 12. 10. Psal. 19. & 119. Prov. 8. * Iohn . 20. 30. 31. & 21. 25. † 2 Pet. 3. 16. * Eph. 4. 11 12. 13. 14 1 Cor. 12. † 2 Pet. 1. 19. Ephe. 2 20. “ 2 Tim. 3. 15. * 1. King. 6 23. † 1. King. 7. 25. * 1 King. 12 28. * 1 Cor. 12. & 14. † 2 Cor. 2. 17. † Differene pag. 10. The 1. reason . Answer . * Charact. of the B. pag. 16. * pag. 32. * 1 King. 8. 41. 43. The 2. reason . Ansvver . † Prov. 26. 27. The 3. reason . Answer . † Rō . 15. 4. 2 Pet. 1. 19 4. Reason . Answer . * pag. 17. “ Heb. 9. 19 5. Reason . Answer . 6. Reason . Answer . 7. Reason . Answer . † pag. 14. † Orat. pro Archia . * Omnia Graece . Iuvenal . Sat. 6 “ Diff. pag. 11. † pag. 12. * pag. 10. “ Pro. 14. 1. † Dif . p. 17. * Joh. 5. 39 † Gal. 6. 16. * Tob. 12 : 15. “ Tob. 5. 12 † Tob. 6. 16 , 17. 1. Argument . Answer . “ 1. King. 14. 4 † pag. 17. The 2. argument Answer * Rom. 10. ●● † Rom. 14. ▪ 23. Heb. 1● * Tit. 1. 14 “ Mar. 7. 8. 9 — 11. † Dif . p. 14. * Dif . p. 5. “ Eze , 13. 2 † Diff. p. 4. † pag. 22. * pag. 5. “ pag. 6. † pag. 18. * Hos. 5. 1. Argument . 3. Answer . * Job . 28. 16. † Dan. 10. 5. Argument . 4. “ pag. 1. Answer . ¶ Iob. 15. 35. † pag. 17. Argument 5. † Ezek. 13. 18. Answer . * Gē . 22. 13 “ Diff. p. 6. † Pro. 11. 26 Argum. 6 † Pro. 8. 9. Answer . * 1 Thes. 5. 27. “ Rō . 15. 4. † 2 Pet. 3. 16. * 1 Chro. 21 24. “ Deut. 31. 9 — 13. Argum. 7. * Psa. 109. 28. Answer . “ Rev. 1. 3. † 2 Pet. 2. 14 * Diff. p , 17 * kara . Isa. 29. 12. and 61 , 1 , 2. Zac 7 , 7. “ Jsa . 5 , 20. † 2 Pet. 2. 3 Argum. 8. Answer . * Exo. 10. 21. “ Arg. set before the apocryphal books , in many English bibles . Arg. 9. Answer . * Luk. 4. 16-21 . “ Act. 15. 21. † Col. 4. 16. 1 Thes. 5. 27. * Rev. 2. 1. 6 , 7. 13. * Exod. 20 † Ecc. 12. 10 * Est. 1. 20 22. “ Joh. 20 , 31 1 Cor. 14. 37. * 1 Cor. 12. “ 2 Pet. 1. 20. † 1 Cor. 14. 26 — 28. Mar. 15. 35. * epelue . “ Heb. pathar Gr. epelusen . † Joh. 21. 34 Arg. 10. Answer . † Coar . of the B. in the Epistle . * 2 Tim. 3. 13. “ Psa. 8. 2. “ Diff. pag. 13. 1. Objection M. Sm. answer Replie . Answer . Repl. * Deut. 24 1 &c. & 21 15. &c. † Mat. 19. 8. Answer Replie . † Mat. 19. 8 * 2 Sam. 12 8. If by the original M. S. mean Lukes own writing : he iniurieth him otherweise , as if he approved an error which only he bare with by direction of Gods spirit : & which if M. S. blame in him , let him self beware of blasphemie . † Beza annot . in Luk ● . 23. † Job . 39. 37 Answer . Replie . * Rom. 4. 3. Heb. 3. 7 The 2 ▪ Obiection M. S. Ans. Replie . † de antiq . Iud. lib , 12. cap. 1. * Prologue of Iesus son of Syrach : or Ecclesiasticus . † Ioh. 8. 39. * Gen , 17. “ Gen. 14. 13. † Act. 22. 3 * Hellenes . “ vers . 19. † ve . 24. 26 * Act. 15. 1. † Act. 15. 23. “ Ios. Scaliger . de emēd . temp . lib. 5. De pr. anno . Chal. Et lib 2. De Ci●l . Iudae . Karraim . † Act. 18. 4. & 13. 42. 44. & 14. 1. & Answ. Repl. * Philo de legat . ad Caium . Answ. Repl. † Neh. 13. 24 * Dan. 1. ● . &c. “ Mark. 15 † Mark. 7. 34. & 5. 41. Answer . Repl. † Act. 13. 15. & 15. 21. * Act. 15. 24. &c. Col 2 , 16. 17. 3. Obiectiō . Answer . “ Pr. 24. 26 Replie . † Exod. 20. * Act. 15. 21. “ Luk. 4. 16. * Isai. 44. 20. Answer . Replie . † Isa. 44. 1● † Rev. 3. 1 ▪ 6. * Mar. 12. 26 , compared with Mat. 22. 31 “ Hab. 2. 18 4 Obiection 5. Obiect . “ Luk. 4. 17. &c. M. Sm. answer . * Luk. 4. 16 Replie . “ ver . 22. † Mat. 26. 25. Joh. 18. 20. * Dif . p. 6. “ Luk. 2. 49 46. 47. † Rom. 1. 9. Answer . Replie . † Dif . p. 15. * 1 Cor. 12. 3. Answer . Replie . † Luk. 4. * Neh. 8. 8 “ Act. 13. 15. & 15. 21. * phonas . Answer . Repl. * Differ . pag. 18. † Act. 13. 47. * Act. 1. 20 “ Act. 13. 33. † Prolog . 〈◊〉 Psal. expla . † Act. 17. 2 * vers . 11. * Pro. 30. 18. 19. † Principles &c. * 2 Pet. 2. 1 “ Dif . p. 22. † Dif . p. 23. 1. Reason . Answer . * pag. 28. “ 1 Chr. 23 30. † Neh. 8. 7. 9. 2 Reason . * Num. 11 25. Answer . † Rev. 4. 6. 8. * vers . 9. 10 “ Rev. 5. 8. 9. 10. 3. Reason . Answer . * Num. 18 † 1 Tim. 5. 17. 4. Reason . Answer . 5. Reason . † Psal. 58. 7 Answer . † vers . 28. * Ioh. 21. 16. * Ioh. 10. † Joh. 21. 6. Reason . Answer . 7. Reason . Answer . * 1 Cor. 16. 10. † 1 Cor. 12. 4. 8. * Rom. 12. 7. 8. * Jsa . 57. 12 ▪ “ 1 Cor. 12. 4. 5. 6. † Rom. 12. 6 ▪ 7. 8. “ 1 Cor. 12. 28. * 1 Tim. 5. 17 * pag. 24. † 2 Cor. 2. 16. * Ex. 18. 16 &c. “ Exo. 28. 1 † Num. 11. 14. 16. * Ex. 18. 25 “ Num. 18. 2. 6 , † 1 Chr. 23. & 25. & 26. chap , * 1 Cor. 12. 6. “ ver . 4. † v. 8. 9. 10. * ver . 5. “ Rom. 12. 7 8. 1 Cor. 12. 28. 29. * 1 Tim. 5. 17. * 2 Tim. 5. 3 “ ver . 17. * ver . 20. “ Tit , 1. 11. † 2 Tim. 3. 5. 6. * Rō . 16. 18 “ Mat , 23 , 18. * Ioh. s. 29. “ 1 Cor. 7. 30. † 1 Tim. 4. 10. * Psa. 36. 6. “ Tit. 1. 10. † Rom. 16. 6. 12. * 1 Cor. 15. 10. † Synechdoche . * Luk. 1. 9. Nū . 16. 40 † Nū . 6. 23 “ Deut. 31. ● . † 1 Tim. 3. 4. * 1 Tim. 5. 17. “ Rom. 12. 8. † Philip. 1. 1 Act , 20. * Ioh. 1. 5. “ Mat. 13. 15. * 1 Cor. 12. 4. † vers . 8. “ vers . 5. ¶ 1 Cor. 8. 6 * Rom. 12. 7 ▪ 8. † 1 Cor. 8. 6 “ 1 Cor. 12. 6. ¶ Act. 3. 22. * Heb. 9. 11 † Rev. 19. 16. “ Rō . 12. 1. 2. † 1 Cor. 15. 25. † Eph. 4. 11 “ 1 Cor. 12. 8. Rom. 12 7. ¶ Eph. 4. 11 * 1 Cor. 12. 8. Rom. 12 8. † 1 Cor. 12. 28. “ Rom. 12. 8 1 Tim. 5. 17 * 1 Cor. 12. 28. † 1 Tim. 5. 17. * Rom. 12. 7. 8. * Charact. of the beast . in the epist. “ Gen. 1. 1. † Num. 13. 29. † 1 Cor. 12. 4. * vers . 6. “ vers . 5. * vers . 7. † vers . 12. &c. “ vers . 27. 28. * Prov. 1. 23. † vers . 30. “ Iob. 40. 10. 18. † Num , 16. 1. 3. 10. * Act. 6. 2 3 , 4. “ 2 Cor. 2. 16. † Deut. 28. 28. 29. * ver . 3. “ ver . 4. † ver . 5. * ver . 6. † ver , 7. * ver . 8. “ Pro. 22. ● * Rō . 12. 6. “ 1 Cor. 14. 1. 31 , † vers . 26. * 1 Cor. 12. 5. “ Act. 6. 3. 4. † Col. 4. 17. † 1 Cor. 14. 3 * 1 Tim. 5. 17. “ Rō , 12. 6. † 2 Tim. 4. 2 * Act. 20. 20. “ 1 Tim. 4. 15 , 16. † 1 Cor. 14. 30. * Rom. 12. 7 Answer . Replie . † Parallel . pag. 93. * Titus 3. 11. * Act. 20. 17. † Rev. 2. 1. * Act. 20. 28. “ Rom. 12. * 1 Cor. 12. † Joh. 10. “ Ioh. 21. 16 * 1 Pet. 5. 2 “ Psal. 78. 70. 71. 72. 1 Chron. 11. 2. * Ephe. 2. 20. † Rev. 1. 20 “ Reu. 12. 4 * Rev. 9. 1. † Rev. 7. 1. Song . 4. 16. * R. D. Kimchi , Commēt . in Mal. 2. 7. & Hag. 1. 13. ¶ 1 Cor. 12. 8. “ Rō . 12. 8. † Colos. 4. 17 * Act. 14. 23. ‘“ Jrenaeus l. 3. c. 3. Euseb . l. 4. c. 15. * Rev. 2. 8. † Rev. 1. 1. * Char. of the B. Epis. “ Ps. 144. 11. † Dif . after the preface . * pag. 28 “ pag. 30. † Psa. 24. 1. * 1 Cor. 10. 26. 27. “ Tit. 1. 15. † 1 Cor. 8. & 10 , 25. &c. * 2 Chr. 2. 3. 8. “ Ezr. 6. 8. &c. † Heb. 13. 16. * Mat. 6. 4. “ Gal 6. 10 * Mat. 25. 41 — 45. † 1 Cor. 10 26. * pag ▪ 30. “ 1 Cor , 11 16. Notes for div A13202-e27860 “ printed 1609. † Psal. 83. 13. “ Parall . pag , 15. * pag. 3. † Rev. 8. 10. 11 ▪ “ Parall . p. 14. & 23. † Char. pag. 48. * Deut. 32. 33. “ Parall . p. 30. * Parall . p. 30. * Parall . p 30. † Levit. 12. 2. 5. & 15. 19. &c. * Eccles. 10. 1. * I sayd ; ar antichrists , not for taking . &c. * 1 Tim. 4. 14. † Tit. 1. 5. 1 Cor. 12. 28. Act. 14. 23. “ 1 Tim. 5. 17. * pag. 68. M. S. Argument . † pag. 55. * pag. 67. † Mat. 22. 37 — 39. 1 Sam. 2. 25 * Ier. 7. 22. “ 1 Cor. 1. 17 † Num. 15. Lev. 1. &c. * 1 Cor. 1. 16 “ 1 Joh. 2. 22. 2 Joh. 7. † Gen. 39. 9 * 1 Cor. 8. 12 “ pag. 68. † Ioh. 10. * Psa. 8. “ Psa. 82. * Paral. pa. 68. † pag. 41. * pag. 68. * pag. 69. † pag. 67. “ pag. 68. * pag. 69. * Rev. 1. 5. † Act. 20. 28. “ 1 Thes. 5. 22. * Ioh. 13. 20. Luk. 10. 16 “ Parall . p. 65. “ Counter . p , 176. † Act. 4. 32. † 1 Cor. 8. 6. Mat. 23. 8. 10. * 1 Pet. 2. 13. 14. “ 1 Pet. 5. 5 Heb. 13. 17 † Heb. 13. 17. * Act. 20. 28. * pag. 66. “ Lev. 4. 13 &c. * Act. 20. 28. 1 Tim. 5. 17. 1 Thes 5. 12. 1 Cor. 16. 16. Heb 13. 17. “ Confess : art . 17. & 19. † paral . p. 86 * pag. 107. † pag. 66. * 1 Cor. 12. 18. † Rom. 12. 4. “ 1 Cor. 12. 4. 5. 6. † Rom. 12. 6 7. 8. * vers . 29. “ ver . 8. * Para● ▪ p. 61. † C●●n . p. ●73 . * Parall . p. 16. “ Luk. 16. 6. 7. 
A19569	----	A triall of our church-forsakers. Or A meditation tending to still the passions of unquiet Brownists, upon Heb.10.25 Wherein is iustified, against them, that the blessed Church of England 1 Is a true Church. 2 Hath a true ministry. 3 Hath a true worship. By Robert Abbot ... Abbot, Robert, 1588?-1662? 1639 Approx. 450 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 143 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2008-09 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A19569 STC 60 ESTC S100380 99836222 99836222 480 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A19569) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 480) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English Books, 1475-1640 ; 947:03) A triall of our church-forsakers. Or A meditation tending to still the passions of unquiet Brownists, upon Heb.10.25 Wherein is iustified, against them, that the blessed Church of England 1 Is a true Church. 2 Hath a true ministry. 3 Hath a true worship. By Robert Abbot ... Abbot, Robert, 1588?-1662? [32], 223, 222-249, [5] p. Printed by Thomas Payne for Philemon Stephens and Christopher Meredith, and are to be sould at their shoppe at the signe of the Golden Lyon in Saint Pauls Church-yard, London : 1639. With a final imprimatur leaf. The first leaf and last leaf are blank. Reproduction of the original in the British Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. 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Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Brownists. 2006-01 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2006-07 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2007-06 Ali Jakobson Sampled and proofread 2007-06 Ali Jakobson Text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A TRIALL OF OVR CHVRCH-FORSAKERS . OR A MEDITATION TENDING TO STILL THE passions of unquiet Brownists , upon Heb. 10.25 . Wherein is Iustified , against them , that the blessed Church of England 1 Is a true Church . 2 Hath a true Ministry . 3 Hath a true Worship . By ROBERT ABBOT , Vicar of Cranbrooke in Kent . Mat. 11.19 . Wisedome is Justified of her Children . Hosea 2.1 . Say to your brethren Ammi ; and to your sisters , Ruhamah . LONDON , Printed by Thomas Payne for Philemon Stephens and Christopher Meredith , and are to be sould at their shoppe at the signe of the Golden Lyon in Saint Pauls Church-yard . 1639. REverendo in Christo Patri ac Domino , Domino Gualtero Episcopo Wintoniensi , serenissimae Majestati ab Eleemosynis , Aureae Periscelidis Praesuli Clarissimo , Domino suo intimè observando , Robertus Abbott librum hunc , quo Celebritas Anglicanae Ecclesiae , ministerij , & cultus , asseritur , & qui Ecclesiae matri , ut pacifici amoris pignus dicatur , ad perpetuam observantiae Justae memoriam , ut magno in eadem Ecclesia Patri , ejusdemque causae Patrono , humiliter dat , & consecrat . TO MY DEARE MOTHER THE MVCH HONORED , HOLY , AND BLESSED CHVRCH of ENGLAND . DEare and blessed Mother ) thou hast been long pestered with undutifull , yea unnaturall sons . Sometimes they have beene superstitious , sometimes prophane , and for some yeares , some that have professed themselves best to God , have beene undutifull to thee . It is an ill signe , if children acknowledge a father , and deny a mother , that all hath not beene well Doest thou live in perpetuall adulteries and rebellions that thy children renounce thee ? Surely thy love is to thy husband alone . Though when thy husband knowes of it , and hee doth not mislike it , nay , gives thee generall allowance , thou takest some ornaments and Iewels from blessed and good men ▪ yet is thy heart to Christ continually , yea and all thy carriages are according to his will. Many of thy worthy sonnes have vindicated this truth both against Rhemes , and Amsterdame . They could not indure that their mother should be called whore , much lesse prooved so . Amongst the rest , I thy unworthy sonne have appeared in thy cause , renouncing all the bloud in my heart that riseth against Christ , and thee his spouse . If I appeare of too mild a temper , thou hast not begotten me of murthering mettle , but of that word which makes us turne speares , and swords into mattocks and sythes . How soever I look , I am sure I am thy child . And if I have done thee any honour in this poore service , I am glad : if not , yet I have done the best that I thought fit for these opposers ; and so with my humble prayers for the flourishing , and increase of thy peace and truth , I kisse thy hand , and rest Thy obedient sonne to his utmost power , ROBERT ABBOT . TO THE COVRTEOVS AND CHRISTIAN READERS , ESPECIALLY TO HIS OWNE Parishioners , grace , and truth , and peace , with the Churches of God in CHRIST . DEarely beloved ) I have lived now by Gods gratious dispensation , above fifty yeares ; and in the place of my allotment two and twenty full . How unprofitably so ever in the dayes of my vanity , when the world , the flesh , and the Devill , bore sway ; yet , through undeserved grace , painefully , ever since the weight of a peoples care was noticed to my conscience . I have had great labours , some watchings , many strifes , and contentions , with my selfe , and others , about truth , and godlinesse . And though I have earnestly contended that the mouth of the oxe might not be muzled , that treadeth out the corne , but that J , and others of Gods labourers , ●ight live honorable of the gospell , and at the Altar , at which we serve , as Christ hath ordained : yet ( with a good conscience ) I can say as the Apostle , I have coveted no mans gold , or silver , or apparrell : I have loved , and desired to spend , and to be spent , though the more I love , the lesse I am loved of some few I know that J must lay downe this tabernacle , and the time of my dissolution is not farre off . Therefore doe I more seriously beginne to thinke of my state : and doe set upon it to examine how I am like to be presented before the tribunall seate of God. Whē I thinke of my sinnes , and manifold infirmities I feare & quake , through the sight of the maiesty purity and iustice of God : but when I think of Christ the mediator of the new testament , and of the infinite value of his bloud offered in the dearenesse of Gods love , and applyed & rested on by faith , which the holy Ghost in a saving measure hath given me ; I approach with confidence and the lifting up of my head . But , till that time come I lie under the expectation of flouds of sorrowes , streames of temptations , and other humane infirmities . I pray that J may doe nothing that may dishonour Christ my master , and that I may suffer nothing that may drive me from him and his service . J know that the wasters of grace are strong , and many , and that no goodnesse is entayled to us without great care and vigilancy . I know that sinnes and afflictions are the two great enemies of perseverance . And though sinne be the most powerfull , which yet ( through grace ) I have learned to trample upon with the constant acts of piety and charity , according to my measure , yet afflictions are my next care , which if they bee slighted , will make secret inrodes to hind●r peace with God My afflictions have not beene so weighty as millions of Gods deare saints have felt . In this Gods grace hath beene marvellous , because hee knowes my weakenesse to beare , and my unworthinesse to bee a souldier in that warfare : yet have they not beene so little , as that they have not made me work enough . It is grievous to bee slighted of them whom a man dearely loves and to have contempt powred upon that which comes in fulnesse of strength , and tendernesse of affection to doe good . Jt is hard not once scarce to be thanked , for constant travels to edifie and save soules . It is something to see respects fly abroad in full measure to strangers , when nearer relations are forgotten . But to bee persecuted by the tongues of those a man deserves well of , and to be privily smitten of those from whom best incouragements are due , will wound the heart of a David though he be after Gods owne heart . J have of long suffered words of diminution and disparagement . They have beene my meate , drinke , and cloathing . Though when I have beene downe the wind of weakenes , feeblenesse of spirit ha●● given advantage for a deepe impression , yet ( blessed be God ) as strength hath appeared I have kicked at them with chearefulnesse , though pride and folly hath sometimes misinterpreted this also . I have often looked into the cause . Lord , what have I done ? Have I not lived like thy servant , though with much sensible weakenesse ? have I not laboured in thy vineyard with all my strength ? have J not taught thy truth by taking heede to reading and doctrine ? yes surely , saith my conscience I have kept back none of thy counsell , I have not strengthened the hands of wickednesse . I have loved the godly , as such , though I have hated their indiscretions , as well as my owne . J have been kinde and courteous to those that have ill rewarded me . Onely , this is the truth , J have loved the Church of God amongst us , and the whole governement ecclesiasticall , and temporall If any thing have appeared harsh , I have excused it a● I was bound . I have not indured to heare publike scandalls to bee layed upon them . I have opposed gainesayers with earnestnesse of spirit , others will say , like a man , but J will say , and J am sure , like a minister . This hath fallen upon darke melancholick , high lookt , and sowre natures , and so hath suffered a disgust . Some have beene sowred , but sweetned againe with the trade of the good word of God , and the practise of affability . Some have beene estranged till this contracted folly hath beene digested . Some have complayned of chiding , when my nature can chide nothing but sinne and disorder : and some have hardned themselves in error , and schisme . To crosse me ( I feare ) and my tenets for the Church , they have revenged upon themselves . What these few will gaine in the issue I doe not know . This ( I doubt ) that they will repent , if greatnesse of stomack will let them looke backe againe , when it is too late . But for you ( my good people ) in whose hearts God hath writ mee by the preaching of Christ , and his truth , ye have not so runne in vaine . Ye will not be deluded with their pretences and sweet words . Yee have heard formerly from me all these grounds , and oppositions of Brownisme , which here J present unto you : and here have J thus addressed them for you , that they may keepe you from that snare of simple ones , and that they may ever lie by you , when J am dead , and with my Christ , to keepe you upright in the waies of our blessed Church . I know that some of you beare a deare and tender affection to these few seduced ones , though now they will not heare you . Ye have lived in the same Church together like friends : ye have delighted in the same word of God , prayer , and sacraments : yee have sweetly comforted one another in the private communion of Saints : and ye see that still they seeme to live unblameable lives towards men , and that they pretend to delight still in the word of Christ , which is the onely rule of salvation . These things will give great advantage to them to worke upon you , and to you to keepe intimate familiarity with them . But ( in the feare of God I beseech you ) take heede : weigh well what in this discourse J say , and God give you understanding in all things . Jt is no small charge to unchurch a church , to unminister a ministery , and to unworship a worship . They must be sure of their hands , that they can , and will answer it to Christ with confidence when they have done it . To doe it with a trembling heart , is to doe it against conscience . To doe it with full assurance of understanding , is to doe it with sure warrants , and precepts of Christ . If they have such against our Church , I am sure we shall finde them : if not let them goe , if they will , but follow not them in the breach . To keepe you out of it , I have done as J doe : and to gaine them too , if they will not bee resolved without grounds . J am sure they shall have no iust cause to except against my dealing with them . They may except against me , as an English Priest , and Bishops creature , as I heare , but shall never against my course with them . I have dealt with them with matter more then with words : and because they pretend to two things , to the scriptures , and to conscience , and I know a third thing in them , weakenesse . Therefore have J dealt with them accordingly . J have compared scripture with scripture , to finde out the truth , but cannot finde theirs . I have dealt conscionably with them in fighting with that onely weapon against them , of their owne choosing , the word of Christ . And because they are weake , I have not shewed my selfe a man in giving them any bitter language , or exasperating termes . As the barking of one dogge begets the barking of another , though it bee against the Moone : so is it with high words , and therefore it were glorious , and above a man , if it were layed downe on all sides , and partakings . But as the waves of the sea , when they meete not with a rocke , but with the sands , they returne backe-againe with a watery flash : so have J done by them , that all our matters may be done in love . Indeede I have taken their affected name out of their mouthes , separatists ; and given their right one unto them , Brownists ; and this J have done out of conscience . I finde by experience that the word , Separation , doth winne to their cause : For , when people of strong affections , and weaker Iudgements , doe reade of the necessity of separation in the scriptures ; and can not discerne how we have made separation from heathenisme , and when we have beene thrust out of Rome ( because wee were unwilling to bee so bad as shee ) have maintayned our just standing from her in a divided way ; they have beene willing to hearken to a separating plott . Therefore Browne being the leader amongst us , to this breach , ( if now time hath not made it worse then he intended it ) J can not nickname , but inconscience call the childe after the fathers name . Jt was Christs course , ye are of your father the Devill , his children ye are , and so must I. Jt is true also , that afterwards , yee may finde some opinions gone against , that are held by some that keepe Communion with our Church , as of a true Church . But I am sure they are the Brownists opinions also , to whom I speake . All that I can say therefore for that , is this . Jt may bee , that some of you know , or have heard of that Noble Moralizers fable of Amphiolus , who when hee was in all his military accoutraments to give combate ( as hee thought ) to Argalus a Knight of the Sunne . This mans wife dressed her selfe in her husbands armour , and gave her husbands enemy meeting . Amphiolus encounters valiantly , gave a wound in the necke , closeth , overthrowes , and gives a mortall wound in the body . But when hee opened the armour , viewes his Conquest , and saw it was faire Parthenia , Argalus his wife , he could have no comfort of the day , it became not a man so to ruine a woman . Such is my case heere . J say as a father of old , I dare not write against a Bishop of my communion ; the love of brotherly peace is glorious in the Church , even among men that otherwise differ in opinion . But if they put on the armes of an enemy , ( because they will bee so ) with whom I fight for truth , I cannot helpe it , if they meete with a blow , though I glory not in it , yea am sorry that there should be any such cause . I have now done , and commend you all to the word of Gods grace which is able to save your soules , though no Bownist , nor Anabaptist had ever beene hatched . Live in peace , and the God of peace shall bee with you . Give not way to any opinion whereby the unity of spirit , and the bond of love may be broken . Play the men , be strong and of a good courage . Have prepared hearts to dye for Christs cause : but , to bee sticklers in such poore quarrels , as can neither bring peace to the Church , nor comfort to you at last , abhorre . Wee must all appeare before the Iudgement seate of God , where colours shall doe us no good , because we shall be iudged naked : where pretences shall doe us no good , because the bookes shall bee opened : and where no authors or favourers of Sects , or Schismes shall shelter us , because we must stand before the man Christ Iesus : to whom I ever leave you , and in whose name ye shall have the prayers of Yours to be used in the service of the Gospel ROBERT ABBOT . The Contents of this Meditation is thus summed up . In Section 1. The state of Christians and their care to keepe it . Section 2. The way to keepe a Christian state is publick communion in assemblies . Section 3. The vice of those that forsake publick communion : and first of the prophane . Section 4. The forsakers of our assemblies that would be accounted holy ; and first of their name of Iustice , Brownists , which is due to them . Section 5. Of that name they would have , Separatists , and how unjustly it is expected and assumed by them . Section 6. Of the Brownists opinions upon which they forsake our Church : and first whether we be a true Church . Section 7. Of their first exception against us , about the nature of a visible Church . Section 8. Of their second exception against us , about our enterance into a true Church , where of their covenant . Section 9. A question by the way ( because some of them question it ) about baptizing of Bastards of impenitent Christians . Section 10. Of their third exception against us , about the head of our Church , Christ , and the King under him . Section 11. Of their fourth exception against us about the members of our Church ; where is debated of wicked professors comming to the Lords table . Section 12. Of their last exception against our Church about the government of it : and first of the power of Governement , whether in the whole assembly . Section 13. Of their exceptions against the persons governing , Bishops , and the exercise of their goverment , in ordination , excommunication , imposing oathes . Section 14. Of their second opinion upon which they separate from us : because wee have not a true ministery , where of ordeyners , titles , callings , infirmities , and maintenance . Section 15. Of their last opinion upon which they separate from us ; because wee have not a true worship : where of Ceremonies of order , and significant , and of stinted prayers . Section 16. Of their maine exception in their former argument , to witt , our common prayer booke : where of the order of divine service , and their exceptions against kneeling , Crosse , and responses or answers in Baptisme . Section 17. Of the use that is to bee made of all good assemblies : to learne consideration , and exhortation , because the day is approaching , which is applied to our foasakers . A Postscript . GOod Reader , there are two texts of scripture whereupon the Brownists do build their frame , besides many other in particular questions . These thou shalt finde cleared ( as I judge in conscience ) in most Sections , as thou goest along . These are 1 Cor. 6.17 . whereupon they ground their separation ; and Mat. 18.15 , 16 , 17 , 18. 1 Cor. 5. whereupon they ground the new Parish discipline . Thou shalt finde these cleared Section 5. and 12. But before thou readest , I would intreate thee to correct the errours of the presse , printed at the latter end of the booke : and then learne with me , or learne me . A TRIALL OF OVR CHVRCH FORSAKERS OR A meditation to still the passions of unquiet Brownists , upon Heb. 10.25 . Not forsaking the assembling of our selves together , as the manner of some is , but exhorting one another : and so much the more as yee see the day approaching . SECTION I. The estate of Christians and their care to keepe it , THe better our estate is , the more wee must labour to keepe it . A poore man takes no great thought for iron bolts and barres : a wooden latch , a pin serves his turne , and yet hee sleepes securely . A rich man , whose treasure is great , and whose heart is nailed to it , hath lockes , bolts , and barres of strongest assurance . Thus must it be with a Christian He is not now in a beggerly estate he is crowned with loving kindnesses and tender mercies unspeakable . He hath liberty to enter into heaven : hee hath a way made to leade him thither : and he hath an able guide for his conduct . The holiest is set before him . His liberty to enter is purchased by the bloud of Iesus . His way thither is Christs flesh , consecrated by the fulnesse of the God-head dwelling in him bodily . His guide is the high-priest over the house of God , Christ the Lord , Christ alone purchased this liberty he alone is this way , by the marriage of our flesh : hee alone is this guide who hath authority over the house of God , and cannot bee defeated . His liberty is of the surest tenure , by purchase with the bloud of the sonne of God. His way is of the firmest sooting , surest foundation , and best making , by Christ himself . And his guide is truth it selfe , one that cannot deceive , even our Iesus Christ who is all and in all . What therefore should hee now doe ▪ Let them get an estate in meanes offered which may present to God this coate o● armes . A field of heavenly truth , and sincerity ( the royallest in Gods eies ) , charged with a cleane washed body , opened , for all the world to looke upon . In the midst , an heart sprinckled from an ill conscience , breathing out by degrees , a full assurance of faith . And because he is a souldier , and many enemies will assault his colours , to win them , that he may never give them againe ; let him not only have such christian armes , but hold fast the profession of his faith , without wavering , that he doe not loose his crowne , and honour with Christ . But , Lord , how hard is this ? The Christian is weak , and his enemies many & mighty . It is true therefore let him be strong in the Lord , and run to such meanes as God hath appointed , who knowes best how to give , and how to guard all his graces given . And what meanes are they ? The publike and private communion of Saints , mentioned in these words . The publicke is , not to forsake the assembling of our selves together . The private is , upon due consideration of our selves to exhort one another . These will make the christian keepe his ground , not loose his colours , not quit the field , but overcome in living , and bee more then Conquerours in dying . The words ( without curiosity ) present these three parts unto you . First , the vertue of some Christians , or rather the act of it . Secondly , the vice of others , or rather the act of many vices : and thirdly , the use to be made of eschewing the one , and following the other . The act of vertue in all Christians , who would keep what they have , is , m●n to forsake the assembling of our selves together : to keep publick communion of saints in the acts of religion and worship . The act of vices in some Christians , who have no care to keepe what they have , or a vicious care to get something worse ; is , to forsake the assemblies , though the division of Reuben make great thoughts of heart . The use that is to be made of flying the vices of these , and following the vertue of the others , is , to gaine ability from sound judgment , and due consideration , to exhort one another ; which hee sets on with a motive ; because the day is approaching , in which all must give accounts according to receits . Thus have yee seene in a word , that a christian hath a rich and precious estate : that God is willing he should keep it to bring him to heaven : that it is possible for him to doe so in Gods way : that this way is here set downe ; and therefore further follow it with me to Gods glory , and your good . SECT . 2. The way to keepe a Christian state is publick communion . TO speake first of the act of vertue of all good christians . If they would draw neere to heaven , and stand fast there , they must not forsake the assemblings of our selves together : they must love church assemblies , and the publicke fellowship of the saints : in a word , they that are good , and would be better , must choose to bee where Gods people are in publicke service for the common faith , and our common salvation . All the best saints and people of God have been ever for this . They have loved , and delighted to pray , reade , meditate , and conferre in private : but were most glad when others would say unto them , let us go into the house of the Lord. They mourned when they could not go with the throng of them , that went to the house of God , with the voice of joy and praise to keepe holy day . Yea , they accounted a day in his courts better then a thousand , and had rather bee doorekeepers in the house of God , then to dwel in the tents of ungodlinesse . Not onely they under the law were for it ( when yet Gods blessings were in drops to ours in pouring showres ) : but as it was prophecied , that , in the daies of Christ , christians should say , come let us goe up to the mountaine of the Lord , to the house of the God of Iacob ; so was it fulfilled by the first converted Jewes and Gentiles , as wee see in the history of the Acts. Yea , in the hardest times , and dayes of persecution , when goods , liberties , and lives , lay at the stake , how readily did they deprive themselves of naturall comforts for spiritual ? To the caves and holes of the earth , to stinking mines , and pits , to woods and dens would they flock ( when they had no places authorised for assemblings ) to perform their devotions , and publick worships . This hath beene ever the glorious practise of Gods people : and we cannot wonder at it , when wee consider , the presence in our assemblies , and the benefit that ariseth from them . First in our assemblies are Gods people , Gods Angels , Gods ordinances , and God himselfe . There are Gods people , who have respect due unto them from the greatest Princes in the world . Paul speaking to all sorts of Christians , saith , submit your selves one unto another in the feare of the Lord : and there is a double submission , of Reverence , of Service . By the first , all inferiours must submit themselves to their elders , and to every ordinance of man for the Lords sake . By the second , even the highest must submit to the lowest for good . Thus Peter hath it , bee subject one to another : and that ye may not be hindered , hee cloathed with humility . Thus Esay prophecied , Kings and Queenes shall bow down to the church , with their faces to the earth , and shal lick up the dust of her feete . Not by a subjection of reverence , as if they must be underlings to the censures of that particular congregation whereof they are ( as Brownists would have it , whereof hereafter ) : but by a subjection of service , when they use their crownes and dignities for the honour and advancement of religion , as every good king doth . For they must not despise one of Christs little ones : but with many people and strong nations seek the Lord , and take hold of the skirt of him that is a Iew ( that is a religious person ) saying , we will go with you , for we have heard the Lord is with you ; there are the Angels also . This was figured in the curtaines of the Tabernacle , where Cherubims were wrought of cunning worke : and in the walls of the temple , where were carved the carvings of Cherubims : yea , this also hath been taught by the Apostle ; who would have women to have power on their heads , ( that is , a vaile , as a significant ceremony of subjection to the man , among the Corinthians ) because of the Angels , who are their guardians , and there more especially , present with them . There are with Gods people , and angels Gods ordinances also , both the word , prayer , and sacraments . The word to bee a seed of immortality , and a word of life : praier to powre out our soules , that God and all grace may have roome enough to dwell in them : and the sacraments , to be the seales of the righteousnesse of faith , and so , the buckets of heaven to convey grace by Gods assistance , and covenant , to the worthy receivers . Lastly , there is with Gods people , angels , and ordinances , God himselfe . For though wee cannot limit him to temples made with hands : yet Christ having promised to be with his Apostles alwaies to the end of the world ( which therefore must be enlarged to their successours when they were dead : ) and he having presented himselfe in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks : and lastly , having covenanted for his word and spirits going together : therefore certainely hee is ( by way of special favour ) in the assemblings of his people . If to the Jewes , much more to us : because the ministration of the spirit is much more glorious . Lay now this together , that in our assemblings there are Gods people , Gods Angels , Gods ordinances , and God himselfe and yee cannot wonder that the good have chosen to dwel in publick assemblies , if it might be , for ever . Secondly , in our assemblies all things are for benefit : every thing is edifiable . And if our hearts were in tune , and our heads full of the expectation of Gods spirituall blessings in heavenly things in Christ , how might the kingdome of sinne and Satan fall downe like lightning , as the walls of Iericho at the sound of those rams-hornes of old , when we are in publicke worship . There yee have not onely the spirit promised , which will lead you into all saving truth , convince , convert , and comfort you , till yee are of full stature in Christ : but yee have many hands to help you in confession , supplication , deprecation , intercession , and giving of thankes . There ye have many encouragements to hold on in the way of Christ . There is the word to promise , sacraments to confirme , prayer to procure , and many of Gods people to give you the right hand of fellowship till you come to your journeyes end . The first step to apostacy is the neglect of publick assemblies . As a man that hath an inclination to take wicked courses , withdrawes himselfe from good company ( as Iudas when he went out from Christ and his disciples , and yoaked with the high-priest and elders ) so , if a man encline to warp , hee declines the assemblies of Gods people , as one wearie of such a course . But if hee stick unto them , his hands are strengthened to hold God fast , by the word of precept , promise , and correction ; by the sacraments , wherein a bargaine is strook betweene God and us , by the prayers of our selves and others , which bring God neere to helpe ; and by the examples of others , which have a compelling vertue to good , as well as ill . When therefore yee consider this bundle of profit , yee cannot wonder that Gods people have so constantly tyed themselves to watch at the gate , and wait at the postes of the doores , where publicke worship hath beene prepared . Oh that all Gods people that ate good and would be better , would lay these things to heart , and not forsake our assembling together ! God workes by these meanes , and if wee forsake them , wee forsake the hands of the God of strength , which are in them stirred up to come and help us . Forsake church assemblies and yee turne your backes upon Gods face , angels , saints , and comforting acts of worship . Forsake church assemblies and ye sad the hearts of Gods people , strengthen the hands of wickednesse , and shew no reverence to worship . Forsake church-assemblies , and yee let loose thousand of temptations upon you against faith and manners : the Devill will take you upon his owne ground . You wil say ( happily ) that great presence ▪ and profit is talked of , but ye see none , nor feele any upon you . It maybe so , yet without the fault of our assemblies , and with the fault of none but your unworthy selves . Take therfore this advice in Gods feare , and speed better hereafter . First , come with prepared hearts , that is , hearts unloaded of the guilt of wilfull sins : hearts standing in awe of Gods presence , and worshipping in feare : and hearts sincerely purposing to bee better . Yee know Gods advice , lay apart all filthinesse and superfluity of naughtinesse , and receive with meeknesse the ingraffed word which is able to save your souls . Ye know Peters proposition , now are we all here present before God , to heare all things that are commanded thee of God : and Daevids practise . In thy feare wil I worship towards thy holy temple . Ye know the prophecy that went of you of old , and Davids resolution , to keepe the law , yea , to observe it with his whole heart , according to grace given . Do but you thus , and yee shall find presence and profit . Secondly , bring an humble soule along with you to God house . If God doe meete with you in our assemblies , hee acknowledgeth a Publican , before a Pharisee : hee calls no man Benjamin , the sonne of his right hand , but those whom their owne hearts call Benoni , in their humility : hee salutes them not Naomi , beautifull , who doe not humbly feele themselves Marah , bitter . The humble God wil teach , and the humbled God will lift up : for he fills the hungry with good things . Bring but such senses , and yee shall see presence and profit . But if yee bee swift to heare , and not slow to speak , slow to wrath , God sends such rich ones emptie away , and casts such mighty ones from their thrones . Thirdly , carry your hearts along thorough the whole service . Loose your hearts , and loose your comforts in any thing ye do . It was sweetly sung of old , rejoyce the soule of thy servant , for unto thee doe I lift up my soule . Let that plummet runne downe to the ground , and the wheeles of your actions will not runne to your content . Therefore , do but you come with prepared hearts , humbled soules , and binde your hearts for hearty service in the whole , and then the presence in our assemblies shall bee for you , and the profit for you too , as well as for others , who are thus vertuous , as not to forsake our assemblings together . SECT . 3. The vice of those that forsake publick Communion . 1 ▪ of the prophane . ALl that can be said , will not prevaile with all . There are so many vices to overwhelm that , as it was of old , so is it stil , it is the manner of some to forsake our assemblings together . The Apostle saw it of old , and laboured against it as an enemy to perseverance in the unity of faith and manners , we see it stil and must labour against this act of many vices . I le speake ( thorough Gods helpe ) but of two sorts of persons , too neere unto us , who give themselves unto this fault : the first are prophane , the second would be accounted truely religious . The prophane shew themselves by foure degrees of forsaking our assemblies . The first , is coming to our assemmblies like those that are unwilling . These that doe so are not altogether withdrawn in body , but in heart are too farre from us . The godly say , let us go speedily and pray before the Lord : they are like the Isles that wait for the law ; because they are willing people . But they come as if they were in fetters , and bolts , like Zachariahs women pressed into an Epha with a talent of lead . Lord , how slow is their pace , as if it were to the jaile , or Bridewel . The second is , loving to be any where , rather then in the assembly . Surely , when any act this , though sometimes they come , yet they forsake apace . Gods people cannot rejoyce in such commers , when God told Ezekiel that hee should goe to a rebellious people that were unwilling to submit , hee went in bitternesse and indignation of spirit . Such needes must be the movings of the heart of the assembly about such commers . These thinke not that they should come to doe homage to God , as David presseth , give , give , unto the Lord , glory strength , worship due unto his name . They thinke not , that hee that despiseth the ministery done in assemblies , despiseth not man , but Christ : therefore they love any meetings rather then them . They account church-assemblies rather matters of complement , then necessitie . They need no soule reparations , so their bodies bee fat , and well-liking . Wee read of one Victorinus of old , who would bee a Christian , but frequented not christian assemblies . But godly Simplicianus met him , and thus saluted him , I will not reckon thee among Christians , unlesse I see thee in the church among them . Let these men take home this judgement , and see how they can digest it . The third degree , is preferring private before publicke worship . If they can say they read , & pray at home ( though they reade but their owne indictment , and pray for their owne punishment in the neglect of Gods rule in assembling ) they think all is well , and conscience is wel enough satisfied . But these are enemies to the honor of God , to their owne good , and to the good of others . God is most honoured in the service of assemblies : therefore David vowed to give thanks to God in a great congregation ▪ He knew that this advanced Gods honour most . Our owne good surely shall be greater in assemblies : the Lord loves the gates of Sion ( where publick worship was ) more then all the dwellings of Iudah ; and certainely where his love is , there are best meanes for our good . Besides , wee come to seek that which is lost , or ready to dye : and when many seeke there is more hope of finding . Therfore when God was turned away from favour , the people were appointed to blow the trumpet in Sion , to gather together , that they might be more successeful . Lastly , the profit of others by our examples will be more conspicuous in assemblies : our light will there best shine before men . For this end was Solamons brazen scaffold in the midst of the court : and Ioash stood by the pillar as the manner was . It is true , that others examples in doing worse must not weaken us in doing better . Though Israel play the harlot , yet let not Iudah sin : we must not follow a multitude to do evill , much lesse must ye follow some . Examples are not the rule which we should follow If they be good , they cleare a law they doe not make it . Following of others cannot help us in the day of account . I have done as others , will be a poore plea. The three and twenty thousand were not helped by the thousand Princes , who were their leaders to their destruction . But yet if our examples be good in acts of assembling and worship according to Gods rule , then will others profit bee helped , as by the contrary it will bee much hindered . The last degree whereby prophane persons withdraw from our assemblies is , not coming with the first , and not staying with the last . David would not bee guilty : he desired to bee a doorekeeper , who was first in , and last out . Hee knew not how better to professe himselfe to be a seeker of God early , and to stand in neede of all the acts of worship , from the first humbling for a blesssing , and craving of it , to the last giving of it : and thus should it bee with us . Wee must come with the first . Cornelius and his friends , and servants , waited for Peter . They prevented him that nothing might fall from his ministery untaken up . The cripple waited for the moving of the waters at the descending of the angel : so must all Gods willing people at the places of assembling . Wee must also stay with the last . Even the Prince shall bee in the midst of the people in the temple , he shal go in , when they go in , and when they go forth , they shall go forth together . The Jewes and Gentiles at Antiochia continued in publicke service till the congregation was dissolved . And though Zachary stayed long in the middle temple , yet the people would not depart without the blessing which the Priest must give . If any doe otherwise ( without necessity ) they withdraw from our assemblings , and are in a way of forsaking . SECT . 4. 2 The forsakers of our assemblies that would be accounted godly ; and first of their name . THere are others , who would bee accounted truely religious , who forsake the assembling of our selves together ▪ and these have a name of pride , and a name of justice . The name of pride , which they take to themselves , is separatists . They read sometimes in the scriptures of separation , especially when Paul ( saith according to the prophet ) come out from among them and be ye separate . And when they doe not wisely observe our state , which is not to be separated from , but see with full contentment their owne vaine separation , they will needs glory in the name of Separatists , as others doe of catholickes . The name of Justice is Brownists ; which though they love not to heare of , because Browne , after his platforme of a new way of advancing Christs kingdome , upon wiser thoughts , returned from them , yet how justly they must retaine that name may appeare in that which followes . Wee reade of five introductions to this schisme , before it was raised to the height it now hath : height I say , in mold , and opinion , not in members , which have beene so few this sixteene hundred yeares and more , that we may demonstratively say , it is a brat of mans braine , not a child of Christ , that so long growes not at all . First , about two hundred fifty three yeares after Christ , wee reade of one Novatus , wo first lived under Cyprian , next at Rome . Hee being willing to get himselfe a name , denied repentance to them that had denied Christ , thorough heat of persecution , though out of feare . Yea , he denied repentance to believers who after baptisme fell into any grosse sinne . After by a strong ambition hee had indeavoured to bee a Bishop , and was disappointed , he led many poore soules into his sect : who because they thought themselves better then other christians ( upon the former conceits ) called themselves Cathari , or Puritanes . These suffered their ebbe , and flow , for a time as pride and humility tooke turnes . I am sure that your forsakers will not childe it from such a father . Here was a separation from the unitie of the church , but they will not have it theirs . Secondly , about three hundred thirty and one yeares after Christ , or ( as some write ) something lower , wee read of one Donatus , who , not being able to make his party good against Cecilianus his Bishop , took stomach , and drew a strong party after him for a time . They had this pretense for their separation , that the wicked did defile the good in the communion of the sacraments . They accounted the church to bee no where , but in Africk amongst themselves . They judged their time to bee the harvest of the church , they being a choise remnant , like a little wheat in much chaffe . If they were pressed to conformity by the authority of the Emperour , they cried out , what hath the Emperour to doe with the church ? Being asked , how they could prove that they onely were the church ? They replied , from the wonders of Donatus : from their prayers heard at the sepulchers of the Donatists : and from the visions , and dreames of the members of their church , They accounted sacraments holy onely , when administred by holy persons . They account no true baptisme , but in their church : and therefore they rebaptized all that came into their communion . They would runne into invited and unnecessary dangers . This they called martyrdom , whether they suffered from themselves , or others . I am sure also that our forsakers will not owne these for their setters up in all points , if for nothing else , yet for this they had Bishops . Heere was a separation long and irkesom , yet surely , they will not be of such an episcopall separation . Thirdly , besides the separatiō of Lucifer : who falling at odds with Eusebius Vercellensis about the ordination of honest Paulinus , departed in choler from the peace of the church , and made a proud breach , wee reade about the yeare after Christ three hundred seventy one , of one Audeus a Syrian , who raised up by the cōmon opinion of his zeal , and integrity , a company of followers , who would not pray with other Christians , and Bishops , crying these downe as being too rich : who also gave this reason of their separation , that in the bosome of the church , were suffered usurers , and impure livers . These sometimes dwelt in solitary places by themselves , and sometimes in the suburbs of cities . They fained also great holinesse and chastity , and dreamed God to have mans forme , and humane parts . But their sect outlived not their persons : and I am sure also , that our forsakers wil not acknowledge themselves to bee of this condemned breed . Fourthly , when the thoughts of the best christians were taken up with more weighty matters , and the necessity of times had invited them to faith and doctrine , or the vaile of darkenesse had covered too many hearts , these pettie sidings beganne to vanish , and were at last utterly extinct , till the light of the Gospel shined upon the church with fuller glorie againe . Then , as the enemy troubled the wheat with blasted corne , our forsakers say they had a church againe . In king Henry the eights , and Luthers dayes they finde ( say they ) some congregations upon their bottome . And indeed wee finde in stories , that some of their vaine opinions crept into the heads of some right godly persons , in other points who were ready to suffer for Christ , and did so : for it is hard not to fall from one extreamity to another , if sound judgement ( according to the rule given ) doe not poise the lightnesse of affections . But these in Germany , were crowned with the name of Anabaptists , whose doctrine , and practise , to overthrow the Church , and state , are well knowne , and as well confuted and condemned , by Luther , Calvine , Zanchius , and an whole army of others . But our forsakers ( I am sure ) will not own these in all points , neither will they owne them , because they forsake them also in some . Fiftly therefore , wee must goe lower yet : and if wee come to the daies of blessed Queene Elizabeth , after divers strugglings for excesses ( which surely is no friend to the Gospel among variety of judgements , which know but in part ) , wee meete with one Browne , who first raiseth a new platforme of all the tenets of our forsakers ( if yet , by time , and age , they have not made them worse ) . This man , after hee had infected some by preaching , found meanes to poison others by writing of his Estate of true Christians , and other pamphlets . His conceits , within this last age , have lived and died by turnes , as they have been the objects of discontēted , or quiet spirits . If humble soules have met with them , they have seene in them the poison of peace , the renting of the seamelesse coate of Christs church , the building upon a covenant of workes , and the hindering of the progresse of the Gospell in faith , and love . But if they have beene cast upon a raging sea of an unquiet , and disjointed heart , they have bred Barrowes , Greenwoods , Penries , Robinsons , Iohnsons , Aynsworths , and Smiths , the onely men ( so farre as I know ) of that full straine , who have tasted of more or lesse learning ill placed , from Christs time downward . Seeing therfore , Browne is the first full-father of our forsakers , who raised up their building to that height they would faine maintaine it at : surely , they can have no other name of justice then Brownists , which they must hold , except they can prove that theirs is a newer way . Indeed Browne did afterward fall away from them , and his owne tenets , for the most part . But seeing the first authour justly gives the name ( as that carpenter that builds an house for the building of it , though afterward hee burne it down ) therefore I cannot bee so unjust , as to suffer them , by mee , to bee called by any other , then that they received from him in his new christianity . If now , you aske the issue of this discourse ; it is to draw to this conclusion , that this church of theirs was never heard of till Brownes time ; and so I argue thus . That which never was a true church from Christs time to the daies of Queene Elizabeth , was not a true church then , nor is a true church now : for the gates of hell must not prevaile against it . But the Brownists church was never a true church from Christs time to the dayes of Queene Elizabeth : Therefore it was not a true church then , nor is now as they would have it , If they say , that some of their opinions were of old : I confesse it is true . But let them shew but one church , which either positively in all points which make their church ( to them ) a church ; or negatively , in denying contrary tenets held by the true church , and then they shall bee the true church for mee . But it may bee they will say , that the church of Rome thus disputes against us ▪ It is true : and so doe wee against them about their church built up by the late councell of Trent : affirming confidently that there was never one church but was under the curse of that councel , if it had beene of force before . But when they plead so against us , wee goe to that which made true visible churches in the Apostles dayes , and ever since , that is professed submission to the rule of faith in the scriptures , and a profession of faith in the trinity , especially in Jesus Christ our Lord , that rocke whereupon the church is built : and so long as we have this , wee feare not their plea. If they say , that they doe thus much to make them a true church also . It is true , they doe it , as wee doe ; and yet they denie us ( so doing ) to be a true church except wee be of their new covenant . If therefore , they cannot finde a church of that covenant till Brownes daies , how can they bee a true church which hath never failed , nor ever shall ? Let them duely consider this issue , and God give them understanding in all things . SECT . 5. Of that name they would have ( Separatists ) and how unjustly assumed as a title of honour . IT is most true , that they are loath to acknowledge the name of Browne their father , not sticking to brand him with the livery of a turne-coate , if not Apostate ( and surely deserves to bee soundly lashed who would rashly father it to such a breach ) : yea , and they tell us , that they will have their name from scriptures , not from men , and will be called , they of the separation . In this I am yet glad , that they love the scriptures more then men : and I humbly pray , that all that would be accounted good men , would not tell us what this good man , and that , held , and said ; but what Jesus Christ hath left to be held in the sure word of God , that their faith may not stand in the wisedome of men . But yet before we believe them , we must know in what scripture their name of separation stands . We reade indeed that God saith to Israel , I am the Lord thy God which separate you from other people , which Salomon thus expounds , thou didst separate them from among all the people of the earth . But are not all christians separated thus as well as they , from Iewes , Turkes , Heathens ? Israel was not separate from raigning sinne , and sinners , but for profession and service of the true God. For even then God said of them , yee have tempted me these tenne times , and have not harkened unto my voyce : this evill congregation are gathered together against mee : thou art a stiffenecked people : thou hast provoked me to wrath , and I was angry with thee to destroy thee : and I hope , all christians are of no worse separation then this . We reade againe that Paul at Ephesus , departed from the wicked , and separated the disciples . It is well it was an Apostle , who had an universall Jurisdiction by immediate Call , and not private persons , who may not doe as hee . It was well , it was Paul , who went to Jewish synagogues , to have spirituall communion , and preached none other thing , but that which Moses and the Prophets did say should come to passe , and not his owne dreames . But for his separating the disciples , we reade , he separated them from divers , not from all ; and that from those that were hardened , and believed not , and spake evill of faith in Christ before the multitude , as the text saith . What is this to our church ? wherein they cannot find one member that believes not in Christ ( at least doctrinally ) , nor one that speakes evill of the way of believing in Christ , though thousands justly speak evill of their way , which is the thing in question . Wee reade also againe that renowned place , come out from among them , and be yee separate , and touch no uncleane thing , and I will receive you saith the Lord. For what fellowship hath righteousnesse with unrighteousnesse , and what agreement hath light with darknesse ? But this will not affoord them the name of separatists neither . Looke to the persons that must be separated from . They are heathenish Infidels , unbelievers , Idolaters , in utter darkenesse , and so , not acknowledging the true God. And are wee in the church of England such ? Doe wee not pr●fesse saving truth ? Doe we not look , from the first , to the last , to bee saved onely by Christ ? If any professe they know God , and by workes deny him , yet shall not all things be pure to them that are pure ? Looke next to the persons that are charged to separate . They are the christian Corinthians , to whom the Apostle gives sweete words , The church of God ; called to be saints ; a gracious people by Iesus Christ ; called to the fellowship of Gods son ; in Christ , Christs owne ; begotten in Christ Iesus thorough the Gospell ; the seale of mine Apostleship in the Lord ; whom I praise because yee keepe the ordinances ; and who are full of godly sorrow , with the signes of it : yet will these Corinthians justifie the church of England by their wicked vices , both in publicke , and in their private meetings , as I shall ( if God please ) sh●w hereafter . Consider now , that this christian church , which was commanded to separate from heathens in their Idol-feasts , and abominable atheisme , was yet in something worse then the heathens themselves yet doth hee not teach them to separate one from another in christian duties of piety and charity ; but to redresse each other as they could , and onely to separate from the heathens , that they may be all knowne to be professed , and not dissembled christians . Looke lastly , to the matter the Apostle treateth of . It is to warne christians from having fellowship with the unfruitfull workes of darkenesse , and to reprove them ( in their places ) in word , judgement , affection and conversation . That , with which they must have no fellowship , Paul termeth unrighteousnesse , darknesse , Belial , Idols . The way whereby they may have fellowship with them ▪ he termes , yoaking , concord , partaking , and agreement . And it plainely appeares that it is as murh as if he had said , yee that are christians must not be with the unrighteous men of darkenesse , sonnes of Belial , and Idolaters , as if ye were yoaked in their society , living at one , partaking , and agreeing with them in their wicked course . How I pray , can they raise a name of separation to themselves from hence , except they can prove that all of us live in unrighteousnesse , and darknesse , in league with Satan , and in idolatrie , and that we as paires , and couples are linked together , and partake of these evils ? or how can we justly give them that name of Separatists except wee will grant our selves to bee such ? let them bee , from their first father , Brownists : and because they will be of the number and manner of those , some that forsake the assembling of our selves together ; therefore let us with a good conscience , and as quiet a spirit as their cause will permit examine their grounds by the word of God. SECT . 6. Of the Brownists opinions upon which they forsake our church , 1. Because we are not a true church . These grounds of Brownisme they referre to three heads , to wit , our church , our ministery , and our worship . 1 They deny us to have a true church . 2 They deny us to have a true ministery . 3 They deny us to have a true worship . If this charge were true , surely , they might say as David to Eliab , Is there not a cause ? But whether it bee not most false let a good conscience , guided by the word of God , Judge , First , they deny that wee have a true church . And though wee being in possession , and they labouring to cast us out , we might put them to the proofe , yet shall I ( by Gods helpe ) tender them this one reason , among many , to prove that we have a true church . Where there is the true matter and form of a true church , there is a true church . For this cannot be denied , that the matter and forme of a true man make a true man , that is , the body and soule united : so must it be in the church . But our church hath the true matter and forme of a true church : and therefore is a true church . It is denied by the Brownists that wee have such matter and forme ; and it is proved thus , first for the matter . The true matter of a true church is such as professe saving truth taught in the Scriptures , and is proved thus . That which makes a man a true member of a true churh , that doth make a true church ( for members doe constitute the whole ) : but profession of saving truth makes a true member of a true church ; for Symon Magus , upon his profession was admitted a member , till he fell away : and the Eunuch upon the same profession was admitted too by baptisme , and for ought wee know continued for ever . Now , that we in the church of England do professe saving truth , according to the scriptures cannot be denied . If the Brownists say , that wee overthrow all by thousands of wicked lives in persons , in , and of our church . I am sure that the church of Corinth was worse then ours can be ( in some things ) , it was too bad with envyings , carnall men , uncharitable wretches , that went to law before infidels , scandalizing the weake , partaking with Idols , heresies , abuse of the Lords supper by drunkennesse , and contempt of the poore , and with detestable incest : yet when Paul writes unto them ( even before the incestuous person was cast out ) he salutes them all , as those that are the church of God , Saints by calling , and sanctified in Christ Iesus , at least , by a sanctification of consecration in baptisme , and their profession . But say the Brownists , doth profession make a church of the body of Christ ? will nothing but the body of Christ serve for a true church ? Then let them know that Christs body may be taken two wayes : for a body of all those that shall be saved ; and this is the catholicke church , which are in communion of saints for life : and for a body of those that are in the way of salvation if they be not enemies to themselves ; as every branch in Christ that beareth not fruit . Thus the whole church of Corinth was Christ as well as any other part of the church , and in Christ Iesus , though too many members of it professed without power . For profession brings a church into outward fellowship with Christs body ( as bad servants with a good master ) and so into the way of being savingly of the body of Christ if they resist not , grieve not , quench not , or despise not the spirit of grace . Secondly , for the forme of a true church , that is Christ united unto the persons professing his saving truth . For as the forme of a man is his soule united to his body ; so the forme of a church , which is the body of Christ , is Christ united unto it . Now , that Christ is united unto our church , is proved thus : because hee gives the law of union to us as to the body , and makes it effectuall for conviction , or conversion , to serve the living and true God. As a king is united to his subjects by his lawes , and executions of them for rewards and punishments : so is Jesus Christ to our church . As the head united gives lawes to the body for safety : so doth Christ give lawes to us for our salvation in his word . He hath not dealt so with every nation , yet ( blessed bee his name ) he hath so dealt with us to the joy of our soules . True ( say the Brownists ) wee have his lawes , but doe not answer them in our lives . This doth not cut us off ( being but true in part ) till Christ hath sued out his bill of divorce , no more then the disobedience of a wife makes her no wife ; the disobedience of a sonne no sonne ; and the disobedience of a servant no servant . Againe Christ is united to us , because hee makes his law effectuall for the convincing of all , and for the converting of many soules to cleave unto him faithfully . VVe are baptized , and so put on Christ , and are graffed into the similitude of his death and resurrection . But as we grow in age , many grow in gracelesnesse , and forget the covenant of their God. Then comes the word of Christ convincing , and calls many backe , kills sinne , quickens grace , and converts the hearts of the fathers to the children , and the disobedient to the wisedome of the just . This the Brownists will not deny . They confesse that God hath many gracious people amongst us by the word , and sacraments . VVhence , I pray , doth this proceed , but from the influence and power of Christ united to us ? I am sure that Christ is the way to heaven ; and one soule cannot bee converted from the kingdome of sinne to grace , but it is by the power and influence of Christs three offices . As he is a Prophet , hee must be his wisedome , to teach him repentance from dead works , and faith in Christ . As hee is a Priest , he must make his attonement betwixt God and him for righteousnesse . And as he is a King , hee must over-master the gates of hell , and maintaine him to himselfe in the way of salvation , for sanctification , and full redemption . Conclude therefore , that if wee have the matter and forme of a true church , wee must bee a true church against all exception , if good conscience judge by the word of God. SECT . 7. Brownists first exceptions against us , about the nature of a visible Church . BUt because the Brownists make a great noise in maintaining against us , that ours is not a true church : therefore take particular view of their pleas against it , that wee may see the unjustnesse of their forsaking it . I shall by Gods helpe referre them to five heads . 1 What they meane by a true church . 2 The entrance into a true church . 3 The head of a true church . 4 The members of a true church . 5 The governement of a true church , They meane by a true church , a set congregation of more or fewer , separated from all false waies , and having sufficient authority within it selfe for governement in all causes ecclesiasticall , and assembling ( at times convenient ) for exercise of governement and solemne worship . This is the full summe of what I can conceive them to say of a true church : in which they would make it up of these foure ingredients . First , it must be a set congregation ( which we call a parish , and they mislike ) . Every one of these they would have an absolute church , depending upon none but Christ : and so they deny kings over countries , and Bishops over diocesses to bee members of the church , except they can shew those particular congregations whereof they are but equall members to be ruled by the joint consent of the whole number , or ( it may bee ) the greatest part . Secondly , it must bee separated from all false wayes , not onely of Iewes , Turkes , and Pagans , but from all grosse sinnes and sinners , which doe pollute the worship of the sincerest service of God. Yet surely , they would have them better taught , and made good , that , by the consent of the members , they might be jointed in at last . Thirdly , it must have sufficient authority within it selfe for governement in all causes ecclesiasticall , that is , a plenary power , by consent of members , to ordaine ministers , call , or cast them out , ( as the necessity of the church requires ) to excommunicate , and receive in , and to order all things in their assemblies for the advancement of Christs kingdome , without the leave or restraint of any . Fourthly , it must assemble for acts of governement , and solemne worship , ( without which it is but a shadow ) that is , it must meete in their meeting places to pray , preach , prophecy , baptize , and communicate , as the spirit gives wisedome and utterance . Now , because they finde not our churches thus made up , according to their owne fansies ; therefore doe they forsake them as false , or ( at the least ) no true churches . This is their new way of churching and unchurching of assemblies ( so farre as I can gather by their conferences and writings ) : and they judge of our assemblies after this mould . I hope they will not deny us to have assemblies ; or to be separate from Iewes , Turkes , Pagans , Idolaters , and wicked Belialists , in communion for spirituall life by Christ ; that wee have authority , and power for ordination , excommunication , absolution , and order ; or that wee have assemblies for governement , and solemne worship : and for the rest of the frame it is but the issue of their owne braine , and not of the law and rule of Christ . For first , whereas they would have no nationall churches , but particular in dependent congregations : they must confesse that the whole nation of Israel was but one church . And though then they had but one Tabernacle , yet when after they were divided into severall Synagogues , did they not continue the only church of God ? were they not still reputed of God as one man , though some were better , and more worse ? It is true , say they , because they had but one high-priest , a figure of Christ which was to vanish . Nay rather , because they were but one people and common-wealth , professing the same religion , and ruled by the same lawes , both before they had one high-priest , and after , when ( by corruption ) they had two . Neither was the high-priest in respect of governement a type of Christ ( for so was Melchizedech , of whose order Christ was , and not after the order of Aaron ) : but in respect of his sacrifice , and intercession for the whole people , and his enterance alone into the holy of holies , bearing the names of the twelve tribes : and Christs governement belongs to his kingdome , not to his priest-hood . Besides , must they not confesse that that one church of the nation of Jewes was governed : by one law , and one king ? one law for the substance of governement , and one king to order both priests , and people : and that not as a type of Christ , but as a king by royall authority , as head of the tribes , as I shal cleare hereafter . Yea , doe wee not reade of the church of Ephesus which was one house of God ; over which Timothy was the first angell and Bishop ( as it comes to us from oldest records ) to rule all Presbyters , Deacons , Widowes , and people in their severall assemblies ? For how fond were it to thinke that all the Elders , Deacons , and believers that Paul gives him Jurisdiction over there , should be of one assembly ? Especially seeing Titus his fellow-Bishop was left in Creta to ordeine elders , and oversee them in every city , according to the necessity of severall assemblies . Secondly , whereas they urge that a true church must be separate from all false waies : it is true ; it must be thus in profession , when they are plainely discovered by undoubted scriptures : but that it must be actually thus , or be unchurched , is utterly false . Israel was Gods people , when the sonnes of Eli ( in communion with them ) were sonnes of Belial and knew not the Lord. Moses calls them Gods people , even when they were not separated from Idolatry : because he had no authority to cast them off , before God himselfe had given a bill of divorce . God by Esay , calls the Jewes his children and people , when they were so farre from being separated from rulers of Sodome , rebellious Princes , companions of theeves : that they had such teachers as caused them to erre , such women as were full of hellish pride , such rich men as were cruell oppressours , such inhabitants as the earth was defiled under them ; and such a face of the church as the faithfull city was become an harlot , with their oakes , and gardens of idolatrie , ready to bring confusion . Paul calls the Corinthians a church of God , saints by calling , when at that instant many in communion with them had debates , envyings , whisperings , wraths , strifes , backbitings , swellings , tumults , and had not repented of the uncleannesse , fornication , and lasciviousnesse , which they had committed . Read the epistles of Christ to the seven churches in Asia , and yee shall finde much abominable wickednesse , and yet they were crowned by Christ himselfe with the name of churches . If the Brownists plead that these churches should have beene separated . Indeed they should have better then they were , and because they were not , they after felt the heavie hand of God : but that the good should have fallen out with God for the sinne of man , and beene separated from the good things of God , for the wickednesse of those that were in outward communion of christianity , that we no where , nor ever , I am sure shall read . Thirdly , whereas they plead , that every particular congregation hath sufficient power , by generall vote of members , in all causes ecclesiasticall , I must wonder , before answere , what ? have the people , all the members , power of jurisdiction over all ? What new scripture hath ever Christ made for this confusion ? Surely , we finde it not before the law : for then power of governement lay upon Adam , Noah , Abraham , Isaack , Iacob , Ioseph , and their peeres . Surely it was not under the law : for then power of governement lay upon Moses , and his assistants , ( even by the advice of Iethro ) and upon Aaron , to whom the people must assent . The law was delivered to the priests and elders , and they were charged to looke to the rest . It is as sure also that it is not under the Gospel . The people attempted nothing but by the liking leave , and approbation of the Apostles . The Apostles ordeined elders in every city for the people without them , and conferred with the elders of the church for the good of their assemblies without the people : yea , and upon consultation did decre● a matter for the peace of the church without them when their gifts were at the height . It is true , that sometimes the people were acquainted with some great matter in counsell : not because they had authority without which the Apostles and elders could doe nothing : but to acqu●int them with reasons , and to incourage them in their graces . Thus Bishop Cyprian sometimes did , and sometimes superiours do require the assent of inferiours for better peace and love . And that the people had no authority in governing the church appeares by the commission of Christ to his Apostles , and those that should succeed them , goe yee ( saith Christ ) and teach and baptise , teaching them to observe what ever I have commanded , and I am with you alwaies to the end of the world . The promise is as the charge , to the Apostles and their successours , and not to the people in businesse that concernes them not . Againe , I will give thee the keyes of the kingdome of heaven , ( saith Christ to Peter in the name of the rest ) : and therefore , makes good his word to them all ; he sent them , inspired them , and then said , whose sinnes ye remit or retaine , shall be remitted or retained . It would be strange after this commission , to heare of a power of governing in the people ; especially seeing for the executing of it , Christ gave officers to his church , and not to his church power to make them : hee gave them to his church , to bee in Christs stead to direct and rule by his word , and not to bee directed and ruled by it . Therefore if any thing be out of order he blameth them , not the people . I contended with the Rulers and nobles , saith Nehemiah : and to the Angels of churches speakes Christ sharpely for things amisse . And for the people , Christ would not have them rule , but to be subject to magistrates , and spirituall overseers . This I am confident of , that there cannot one precept , or practise be given that the people should , or did rule in the church , but under their guides and teachers , except Corah and his accomplices who were swallowed up in wrath . As for that text , tell the church , and that other of the incestuous person , we shall meete with them in their proper places . In the meane time know , that the sonne of man hath left his house , and given authority to his servants ( for edification , not for destruction ) and not to his house , which is the church . The people are still called sheep , brethren , houshold of faith , spouse , and children : but their teachers are knowne by the name of Elders , Overseers , and Fathers , on whom the governement lies . But ( say the Brownists ) the saints are answereable to the kings of old , who are to have power ecclesiasticall in their hands . Indeed they are so called , but not in respect of any outward power over others more then before , but of inward power to rule , by the annointing of Christ , over their own pride and corruption . This they will not doe , and so speake evill of them in authority , and advance themselves above the pitch which God hath given there . It is a brave thing to rule , and who would not doe so ? But if they were Davids weaned childe , they would rather bee subject by doing and suffering , then lift up themselves to high places of governement , from whence they may fall to their shame and sorrow . Lastly , whereas they put into the end of their assembling , not onely the exercise of governement , whereof they have none , and preaching , prayer , sacraments , which are good indeed , if done by right persons , and in right manner ; but prophecying too : surely herein they walke not with a right foote according to the truth of the scriptures . They make prophecying an act of some private persons , whereby , as the spirit moves them , they put in , in publicke , their verdicts with their Pastours and Doctours , about the sence , doctrine , and application of the scriptures propounded : but how Christs word makes this good to them I cannot see , nor ever shall . Indeed the Apostle speakes of prophecying , but as of an office of some persons then , not of an ordinary gift now . He saith , let the prophets speake two or three : and I am sure , that prophets have an office to prophecy . Hee saith also , prophecying is a speaking to men to exhortation , edification , and comfort : and I pray , what can the highest gift of preaching doe more ? If they may preach , why may they not administer the sacraments , seeing both goe together ? They cannot say , that to preach is an act of office , and to prophecy , is an act out of office . For where the Apostle speakes expressely of prophecying according to the proportion of faith , hee doth speak as plainly of offices as of gifts . If therefore they will prophecy , let them shew their calling to that office , and then vent their gifts . Doe they doe it by vertue of their generall , or speciall calling ? They deny any speciall calling , and wee denie that they doe it by vertue of the generall calling of a christian , because that gives not the office . How much better were it for them to follow the word of Christ , no man taketh this honour to himselfe , but he that is called of God as Aaron , then by jumbling ordinary , and extraordinary gifts and offices together , to utter things , for want of knowledge , wisedome reading , and doctrine , unworthy of the great God of assemblies . Thus have I considered the foure parcels of which the Brownists make up a true visible . None of which singly , nor all jointly can make our blessed church not to be so : because they are made up of divers falshoods already discovered . Let us now take better view out of Gods word , what a true visible church is , that in it we may see our owne . A true visible churth is , men called , and united in the profession of the truth according to the scriptures . This is alwaies where there is a true visible church , either planted , or continued , or restored . If it be nationall , it is a company of people professing truth in an whole land , as the churches of Iudea , Samaria , and Galile , with those of Asia . If it be Parochial , it is a company of people professing the truth in a towne , or parish : as in those where the Apostles ordained elders in every church . If it be domesticall , it is a company professing the truth in a family : as in Philemons house , and others . It is true , that the truth may bee more purely professed in one church then in another : more purely in Smyrna , and Philadelphia , which were praised , and lesse purely in Ephesus , Sardis , and Laodicea , which were dispraised . It is true also that some churches may be in infancy , and so lesse perfect , as that in Creta , where Titus was left to redresse things amisse , and those churches of the Gentiles , which must not bee troubled for feare of a rent : and some of riper age , as that at Ierusalem , where Iames was Bishop , and the Apostles held a councel , and so had a more setled forme of governement : and that of Philippi , which had their Bishops and Deacons . But if they joine to professe the truth of Christ they are true visible churches . First , they ramble ( as sheep without a shepheard ) without God , without Christ . Christ makes himselfe knowne unto them by the preaching of the word . They assemble as those that professe to seeke salvation that way , some more closely , some more loosely . They publickely submit to the word of God and Sacraments , and calling on the name of the Lord. These persons thus professing make up a true visible church , either in a kingdome , city , town , or house , though they bee worse then Peter in his worse part ( not walking with a right foote ) : yea though too many of them bee as bad as Simon Magus who joyned to Philip and was baptized . When God sent forth his servants to invite guests , there was the calling of a church , When good and bad that were invited , came to the wedding feast , there was their profession . This made up a visible church , though many were called and few chosen , but left in their chosen wayes to their ruine . When wise and foolish virgines came of duty to attend their Lord , though five only had lasting oile , and five had but lampes only , there was a true visible church . When the sower went out to sowe the word of God , though some fell in the high-wayes , and some among the stones , some among thornes , and but some in good grounds ; yet all these professing hearers made up a true visible church . When a man sowed good seed , and his enemie sowed tares , or blasted corne , which sprang up as from the same roote , which must grow together till the harvest , there is a true visible church . When a net was cast into the sea and gathered together fish , both good and bad ; good to bee reserved in vessels , and bad to be cast away , there also is a true visible church , the kingdome of heaven upon earth . The word comes , and when it is received , it makes the church by profession a candlesticke , a citie set on an hill which cannot be hid , especially when those that receive it are baptized , which is the seale of profession . As open profession of men , who say they are willing to fight under the colours of a captaine ( and therefore take their military sacrament ) are a true visible army , though many runne away in the day of battell : so is it in the visible church , which is as acompany of two armies . Cains , Chams , Iudasses , Simon the sorcerers , and Demas , their profession made them all members of the visible church , with Abel , Noah , Peter , Philip , and Paul. It is true , that afterwards they either went backe , or were throwne out by justice ; but the question is , what made them members of the visible church ? and that was joyning in profession of the truth , as the profession of the same trade , art , craft , science , or mystery , makes men of such a society , though some are more worthy , and some lesse . This therefore being Gods truth concerning the nature of the visible church ; and the Brownists visible church being coupled of many falshoods , whatsoever they say , cannot helpe their new church , nor hurt our old church , which is built upon the rocke , the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles , Jesus Christ himselfe being the chiefe corner stone . SECT . 8. Brownists second exception against us : about the entrance into a true church . NExt they object against us the entrance into a true church . Wee should ( say they ) have entred into the state of a visible church , by voluntary covenant upon knowledge , to advance the kingdome of Christ ▪ and so to have a right to the name of a true church , and to the priviledges of it for us , and our children : but wee were forced in our first planting by edicts , lawes , and proclamations , and yet admitted members , and our posteritie after us by baptisme , even of such of us as are not members indeed . Put case this great plea were true at first , yet may not an after mending of what was first amisse , rectifie and confirme all ? Things may bee ill done at first , which being once done , may bee of force , and being well carried may end with a blessing . A child marries without consent of parents , and it is wickedly done , yet when it is done , and sealed with the bed by free consent , shall it not bee of force ? Nay , doe not parents looke upon their courses , and , if they see a good carriage , and good successe , doe they not like it well , and follow it with their blessings ? Shall wee make God an harder master ? will hee not love Iacob though hee got the blessing by deceit ? God purposed him the blessing : and though hee got not the possession the right way , shall his purpose faile ? God forbid : yea let God be true and every man a lyar ; Iacobs unbeliefe makes not the faith of God of none effect . So might God deale with us . Hee purposed to us the covenant of the Gospell , and wee came not to it the right way , yet when we are in it , in the place where it was said unto us , ye are not my people , wee shall bee called the children of the living God. Put case a childe bee cut out of the mothers belly , and come not the ordinary way , shal the father when hee sees it live , and thrive , deny it to be his childe , and conclude it to be a bastard ? So will our God deale with us . But why should wee grant them this ? wee failed not in our entrance : they can never prove it by the word of Christ . A true visible church may bee considered two waies ; in the planting , and in the reforming of it . How wee entred into a true church in our first planting , God knowes , we know not from his word . The sound of the Apostles went into all the earth , and their words into the end of the world . The Gospel is come unto you ( saith Paul to the Colossians ) and to all the world , and bringeth forth fruit : and surely it entred to us ( as it should ) by some Apostle , or Apostolicke men , to make our ancient predecessours a true church . Before , we were without Christ : now wee know him . Before , wee were without the covenant ; now wee are in by baptisme . Before , wee were no professours ; now we are , and God shewes mercy to thousands among them that love him , and keepe his commandements , and is their God , and the God of their seede . But this is not the state of the question now . Therefore for the reforming of a church God would have this course . As it was with Iob , hee was first of Gods making , and next ( by Gods permission ) of the Devils marring , when he was full of botches and sores , scarce knowne to his friends , and loathsome to his wife . All this while Iob was a true man , as he was before , though clouded with some fearefull fits of impatience . But when God would lift up Iob againe , hee did not make a new Iob , but reformed the old , he cured , and cleansed him , that hee might appeare like himselfe , and his end was happy . So God dealt with the church . After it had covenanted with God at first , it wanted no botches , it was fearefully overspread with diseases . But when God would have it raised againe , hee doth not build a new church , but reformeth the old . Hee shewes our forefathers where they were at a losse : that they had the faith of Christ in the articles , and the profession of it in publicke festivities : but with fearefull superstitions and vanities . Therefore hee puts into their hands , and the hands of his ministers , the word of his covenant , and the sacraments of his covenant rightly administred : and thus ( by degrees ) wee fall to publicke profession of Christs truth , by union of lawes , consents , and practises . What then , is the want in our entrance , which doth make us no true church ? The Brownists heere , plead foure things . 1 All our members entred not upon knowledge . 2 They made not a covenant for Christ . 3 They were not voluntary professours . 4 They were baptized when they were the seede of those that were not members of the visible church by actuall profession . That all our members entred not upon knowledge , is false ; were they in planting from no church , or in reforming from a corrupt church ? Surely , the knowledge of the doctrine of salvation by the blessed trinitie , is sufficient for the receiving in of members . For Christ saith , Goe teach all nations and baptize them . And wh●t must they bee taught ? That which they must bee baptized into , their faith in the father , son , and holy Ghost , which was Christs first creede that made churches . Had not the members of our reforming church this knowledge ? where was the seede of our many hundreds of Martyrs ? and where is these mens charities ? Even the darkest times that our church hath suffered hath preserved this knowledge , and the profession of looking to bee saved by Iesus Christ the sonne of the living God , which is that Rocke against which the gates of hell shall not prevaile . Yea but ( they say secondly ) , put case they had this knowledge , yet they entred not into our visible church by covenant . Indeed it is lawfull for christians , that have beene disjointed in the service of God , to make covenants betwixt themselves to serve him better . So Asa and his people entred into a covenant to seeke the Lord God of their fathers , yea , and they sware unto the Lord. So wee reade of the Princes , Levites , and Priests , that made a sure covenant , writ it , and sealed it . Surely , this was a good way to tye up the unruly colts that were among them to Gods service , if they had but naturall conscience , and the Prophets did not condemn it . From whence I conclude , that it is lawfull to helpe our selves in the service of God by any meanes not forbidden , though it bee not precisely commanded in the word : yet is their practise a binding law to us so far , as to unchurch us if wee doe it not ? How many glorious visible churches doe wee reade of in the scriptures , which never tooke this course , nor were bound unto it , and yet entred covenant with Christ too when they were admitted members ? They were made Christs disciples by teaching , and receiving the word , which is the word of reconciliation . And this word given to his people , is , Gods covenanting with them , and his avouching them to bee his peculiar people : and their receiving it , is their covenanting with him , and taking God to bee their God. Then doe they goe to the seales of the covenant ( the sacraments ) , according to Christs rule , which doe knit us rogether in an holy league , for the service of Christ , to our eternall good , if wee doe not deale falsly with God concerning his covenant . If therefore , they denie not ( as they cannot ) that our first members had the true word of God , and sacraments , neither can they deny that they have entred into the church by covenant . Hee that is baptized , putteth on Christ : and baptisme is Christs seale of the covenant upon them that are baptized , as those that were circumcised , were said to bee borne to God by covenant : which if we breake , we renew againe so oft as we come to the supper of the Lord. Yea but ( they say thirdly ) , put case that they entred covenant with God by baptisme , yet were they forced to keepe his covenant , in a better way then they had done , by the edicts , lawes , and proclamations of princes . They were not voluntary servers of Christ , as the members of a true visible church should be . Put this case to them also , yee are the sonnes of your mother , who was forced by the authority of her father , or guardian , to marrie your father : will yee say , that yee are bastards , not lawfull heires , or not true members of the family , because your mother was not married to your father freely , and willingly ? with what will soever shee was married , shee afterward lived in love , faithfulnesse , and obedience , and brought forth much fruit unto him . Such may bee the case of a true visible church . Shee may come to Christ her husband , as a Beare to the stake , being forced by conviction , and the power of naturall conscience ; she may bee drawne before shee runne after him ; yet afterward , shee remembring his love more then wine , may live in obedient love , and bring forth fruit unto God. Though this bee a sufficient plea , yet let them know , that the first members of our church , in planting , were a willing people , for ought they know , and for our first members in reforming , I answere foure things . First , that the free acts of the leaders of the people are accounted by God as the acts of all ; when Moses was bid tell the children of Israel ; and hee did but tell the elders of Israel , and they answered , all the people are said to answer together in them . So Ioshuah called twelve choise men , out of every tribe a man , to carry twelve stones , and the children of Israel , whom they represented , are said to do it . So Asa tooke away the altars of the strange Gods , and brake the idols , and cut downe the groves willingly ; and though hee commanded his people , and ruled by power , yet they obeying , are said , to seeke the Lord ▪ and to prosper . Thus far then , our first reformers were willing members ; they were willing in their guides and leaders , who willingly put themselves on to advance the kingdome of Christ . Secondly , not onely the governours , but the people were willing covenanters in generall body . It was done by the free proceedings of the house of parliament , where Knights , and Burgesses , were chosen by the free vote of the commons : and they ( being knowne to be able men ) doe refer themselves to their determination in the Lord. What though some submitted out of feare of power ? Thus , many in Mardocai's time became Iewes for feare , yet were so accounted . And many in Hezekiahs time were brought by postes , as it were , by the sound of the trumpet , to the passeover , and yet their service was accepted . Thirdly , put case the lawes , and proclamations of our Princes forced some to bee members , who were willing to doe worse . It was not in the first planting of a church , where faith is not to be forced ( the kingdome of heaven suffers violence , but faith suffers not compulsion ) : but it was in the reforming of a church ; and in such a case God did blesse the compulsion of Hezekiah , and the people were not rejected , as no members , though they were not purified according to the purification of the sanctuary . Did not Manasseh , after hee was come home to God , command Iudah to serve the God of Israel ? Did not Iosiah cause and make his people to stand to his covenant to serve , even to serve the Lord our God ? Is it not lawfull for good Princes in reforming to follow these examples ? may not they binde their people some way , by oath , bond , subscription , or taking , and giving hands for better performance of duties of religion ? why may not our good Princes follow those old patternes in reforming ? They say , because it is not found in the new testament . Bee it so : yet it is found in the old testament , and not condemned in the new , nor any other order prescribed in such a case . Surely , seeing in this new devised way , they will bee tried by none but the new testament , they shall be cast at this bar in their own courses . Let them give but one text to prove any man called , or ordained to a Pastours office in the church , by a company of private men alone , and I shall give them another text to prove any thing they please , I can yet reade of none but Apostles , Evangelists , and the eldership that made ministers there . If they can shew no text , I am sure they have no such Pastours as they ought : but I am sure we have true kings , who have power in reforming , to compell wicked people to be better then they are , because they beare not the sword for nought . Yea , but ( say they lastly ) put case they entred upon necessarie knowledge ; that they made a covenant in receiving the word , and sacraments ; that they were voluntarily , or forced , yet lawfull professours , when they stated a visible church : yet they were ( many of them ) baptized , when they were the seed of them that were not members of the visible church . Conceive it thus . If a man be a member of the visible church , then his children have a right to baptisme , before they actually professe the faith , by vertue of that promise , I will be thy God , and the God of thy seede . But if hee bee not a member of a visible church , ( as a Iew , Turke , or Pagan ) then have they no right to it , before they actually confesse , as the Eunuch did . Now the Brownists ( keeping a great coile about the jointing of members into a church , as if it were all one to be jointed into the body of Christ , coapted , and fitted to our head Christ , for life and salvation , and to bee a member of the visible church , in outward communion and fellowship of Christ , for the outward priviledges of the church ) they have ( I say ) espied , among many others , this one crime , in the Dutch , and French churches , that they baptize the seede of them that are no members of the visible church : much more , when they looke upon us , whom they account not members of a true visible church , must they quarrell ( if all bee of his mind ) , if our first reformers be not members of a true visible church , and yet their children are baptized before they are of yeares to professe their owne faith . SECT . 9. A question by the way , about baptizing Bastards of impenitent Christians . I Confesse , I never yet talked with any Brownist about this particular ; yet because I finde too many conscious people , hanging after forraigne novelties , and gazing upon ( with admiration ) the membring , and dismembring in visible churches : who when they heare of Christians lawfully begotten children denied baptisme , beginne to wonder that christians bastards should be admitted . Therefore to cleare both ( as God shall in able ) I shall labour to satisfie others ( as I have done some ) in this question . whether bastards are baptizable while their mothers are in their sinnes of adultery , or fornication , and whether men ought not to stay their baptisme , untill they be reconciled to God , in open church , which is publickely scandalized by her fact , and from which she hath dismembred her selfe by her misdeed ? In this I finde two questions inwrapt in one : whether bastards are baptizable ? and whether men ought not to stay such baptisme , till the harlot bee reconciled to God , and this be done in the open church scandalized , from which by her fact she hath cut herselfe off by her sinne ? I shall first labour to state these questions , and then the cases will more easily appeare . The estate of the first may be thus set . By bastards , such children are meant , as come not into the world by lawfull acts of marriage : and by baptizable is meant , such as have a right to the sacrament of baptisme in the church . And the question is not , whether bastards in generall are baptizable ? for so it is certaine that all are not , as the bastards of Iewes , Turkes , and Pagans , who have no right to baptisme but by personall confession . But the question is , whether the bastards of the professours at large , in a christian church , which is in covenant with God ( for the outward priviledge of the church at least ) have right to baptisme ? of these the inquiry is , because in the second part of this question , is spoken of the mothers reconciling to God , in the open church offended . The state of the second question must be laid by considering two things : 1 The persons enquired of· 2 The duty of these persons . The persons enquired of , are Men : and it is too generall a terme . For it cannot meane , any men of that assembly , where such a bastard is presented : for they have no authority ( knowne to mee from scriptures ) to meddle in any censure ecclesiasticall . These onely are to meddle heere , who are sent , and inspired with delegated service and mininistery from Christ , either immediately , or mediately . Neither can it meane the Pastors , and deputed teachers of that assembly : for they have but a dependent authority according to the lawes of Eutaxy , and good order in the church . Presbiters under Bishops , Bishops under Synods , Synods under Councels , and Councels under the word of Christ in plaine scriptures . Our highest appeale is to our head Christ Iesus . For if ordinary Pastours had such independent power in such cases , thinke whether it would not set up a Pope in every parish , especially considering that wee have neither precept , nor president , in all the new testament , of such power given to any assembly , or Presbiter , that ever I could yet finde . By men ther●fore , wee must understand the publick governours of that church , that is , the King , Prince , state , Bishop , and convocation , by their lawes ecclesiasticall for the good of the church . The question enquires of those , in respect of order , decree , and command : and of these in respect of Canons , and executions accordingly . Thus I take up the minde of the question , or else I know not what it would have . Next , consider in the question , the duty of these persons , whether they ought to stay bastards from baptisme ? By this , two things may bee meant : denying baptisme ; but no man would utterly exclude such : and suspending baptisme ; and of this is the question : for it makes a double limitation ; first , till the harlot be reconciled to God. In this , the question meddles not with the judgement of God , who by his sure omniscience , knowes who are reconciled to him , and who not : nor with the judgement of the conscitnce of any reconciled persons , who by the assurance of faith or hope , may believe , or hope , that they are reconciled ; for this is Gods tribunall : but with the judgement of the church , which under the sacrament of charity ( as it was termed of old ) by the harlots words , and actions may judge the best : and so this parr of the question is utterly void . For I never yet knew harlot but would confesse , and lament her sinne , and promise amendement before her bastard was baptized , and so give a ground for charitable hope . The second limitation is , till shee bee publickely reconciled to the church scandalized , from which by her fact shee hath cu● her selfe off . In which foure things are to bee pondered . First , the manner of her reconciling , which is required by the question ; in the open church . But what if she be ready to be swallowed up of sorrow ? Shall wee not have the church to apply her power of mitigating indulgence ? shall we have nothing but extreamitie ? Did God allow in the time of the law , that if an oxe did kill a man by the masters negligence , there might bee a commutation of punishment , from death to a ransome of mony , and will wee in no case have a mitigation of rigour from the open church , when yet Justice may bee done , and that , with more good sometimes , both upon the partie , and others by charitable and indulgent acts ? Secondly , the persons offended , are the Church scandalized : by which the question meanes not the Catholik , or nationall Church ; for with both these the harlot may be friends still ; because they cannot take notice of every such fact , to bee offended by it : But the particular Church and assembly united by God , and the lawes for the professing of saving truth . Thirdly , consider then the danger of the harlot offending ; shee hath cut her selfe off , as the question implyes : but consider how she hath cut her selfe off ? and how farre ? shee hath not cut her selfe off by excommunication ecclesiasticall : for that is not in her power , and the Church hath not yet proceeded against her : but by excommunication morall , by the wickednesse of her fact , which makes her censurable both heere and hereafter , in an high degree , if she repent not heartily . But how farre hath she cut her selfe off ? Not from the visible Church ; for she still professeth saving faith ; and would not but have the benefit of it for much : yea , shee still hath the character of Baptisme , which is the outward marke of a Christian : for otherwise upon her reconciliation she should be baptized againe , which surely the question intends not : but from two things in the visible Church : first , from the inward comforts of christianity , till shee repent unto life : For ( I thinke ) it will not bee denyed , but that shee may doe this , before ecclesiasticall indulgence bee applyed unto her upon outward submission . And secondly , from publike communion with the visible Church in some holy things , when she is proceeded against , till shee hath outwardly , in the congregation confessed her fault ( if neede require ) and promised amendment . In some holy things ( I say ) for I answer , none will deny her a right to reade the word of God , or to heare it read , to heare good exhortations and instructions , or to pray in private , which yet are the acts of a true Christian . Fourthly , consider the remedy of this danger , ( her reconciling to the Church : ) by which we must not vnderstand , her returning into favour , by communion with the Church in repentance unto life , and the faith of the elect ; for no man , or men , can judge certainely of these : but onely returning into favour by communion with the Church in profession to have them . The question being thus stated , wee may the more easily conceive and give satisfying answers . To the first , whether Bastards are baptizable ? I answer , the bastards ( as other children ) of Iewes , Turkes , and Infidels are not : but the bastards of professors of Christianity are , for these two reasons . First , because that which gives right unto the parents , gives right unto the children in the parents right ( for when the parents professed the faith of Christ , the Apostles did baptize them and their children , if any such were in the houshold : ) But profession of Christianity gives right to the Parents : for if men doe but professe their faith in the Trinity , they are baptizeable : and therefore the bastards of Christans are baptizeable . Secondly , because the children of Christians are baptizeable : but bastards of Christians , are the children of Christians ; for otherwise such parents should be rebaptized : therefore they are baptizeable . To the second question , whether men ought to stay their baptisme , till the harlot be reconciled unto God in the open church ▪ which is justly scandalized by her fact , and from which shee hath dismembred herselfe by her misdeed ? I answere , first to the grounds of the question in limitations : and next to the question it selfe . To the grounds of the question , I answer two things . First , that her fact hath not so dismembred her as to make her no christian . For let me aske , doth a vaste sinne so cut off from Christ , that it doth unchristian a man or woman ? I doe not aske this to move any man or woman to flatter themselves in such a case . For such have just cause to doubt whether they are univocall members of saving Christ : neither can they know by assurance of faith , whether ever they shall rise againe : because God saies to no man , sinne , and my grace shall helpe thee up . But I aske it , to shew the hope and charity of the church , about such wicked professours of christianity . Besides , if her fact had made her no christian , shee should be rebaptized : but shee hath still the character of baptisme , and hath right to the inward comforts of it , if she repent : and so , in her state , and right , her bastard hath a right also . Secondly , I answer , that her scandalizing of the church , where shee lives , doth not deprive her selfe , or her childe , of the right of christianity . As for her childe , the scandall was given by the mother , not that , who is a sufferer in the shame of the sinne , not a doer in the worke of it . As for her selfe , though her scandall deprive her of the best comforts of christianity , till she repent : yet not of a right to some of the outward priviledges of Christianity , whereof the baptisme of her childe is one . And this the rather , because an harlot amongst christians , having a bastard and not professing her selfe sorrowfull , and that shee doth believe in Christ , is not ( for ought I know , or have heard ) to bee found what ever her heart be . Now , secondly , to the question it selfe , I answer , that no man either in that church , or over that church , ought lawfully to stay bastards from baptisme . Because they that are in the covenant of Christianity ( as those that are to be regenerated , though not yet actually regenerate ) are not to be stayed from baptisme : but the bastards of christian harlots are in such a covenant of christianity : therefore they ought not to bee staied from it . That it is thus with christian harlots appeares thus : because if a christian church be in the covenant of christianity , then all the members , and matter of it are : therefore the church of Corinth is called the body of Christ , in respect of the covenant of christianity , though fearfull wickednesse was acted in that church about word , sacraments , and conversation . But such bastards are some of the members of a christian church , therefore they ought not to bee staied from baptisme . That they are mēbers of a a christian church , appeareth thus , Because all that are within the Jurisdiction and judgement of a christian church , are the members and matter of it , for ( saith Paul ) What have I to do to judge them that are without ? but bastards of Christians are within the judgement and jurisdiction of the Church : for else , why were they circumcised of old , and some way censured to certaine generations ? and why in the Christian Church have susceptors ( or God-fathers ) beene appointed for them , to undertake for their education ? Therefore are they members of a Christian Church . Secondly , the proceeding of Abrah●m ( the father of the faithfull ) in his house when he was called into the covenant of circumcision , ought to bee a president to christian Churches in the covenant of Baptisme . But Ishmael was circumcised as wel as Isaack , though Agar bro●ght h●m forth unto bondage , If then no men ought lawfully so to doe , surely such Bastards are not to be denyed baptisme finally , or to be suspended from it in due time , understanding it as is before said . Thus have I answered these questions . But I know , others have answered otherwise : let it therefore bee heard and examined . Some have answered negatively , that Bastards ought not to be baptized untill their mothers be reconciled to God openly in the Church , in the which her child is to be baptized ; let us therefore . 1 Heare their reasons for their opinions . 2 How they maintaine it again● ob●ections made . Their reasons are two . First , because all they , and onely they may be baptized , which either doe actually beleeve , or are of beleeving parents : but bastards in infancy , doe not beleeve actually , nor are of beleeving parents : therefore they are not baptizable . But I answer to the argument , and application of it . The argument is imperfect : for what if bastards bee such as whose parents are unknowne ? in such a case the learned say well , if they shall be borne among christians , the law of charity is to repute thē for the children of christians , if there be not a just cause to presume otherwise . Therefore the argument should runne thus . All they , and onely they should bee baptized , which either doe actually beleeve , or which are of beleeving parents , or in charity may bee presumed so to bee . To the application of it to bastards , I say ; none will resolutely affirme , that Christian bastards while they are infants , are neither actuall beleevers , nor of beleeving parents , nor may bee presumed so to bee : will they hold , that in the act of adultery there is an utter falling from the covenant of christianity ? Have they not read of taking the members of Christ , and making them the members of an harlot ? or will they hold that the act of whoredome doth utterly extinguish baptismall grace in the parents ? I thinke they will not ; I know they cannot . No corporation doth cast off their members from their enfranchisements before triall , convictions , and judgement : much lesse will Christ . Yet they say two things in their owne defence . First , that bastards beleeve not actually . Indeede it were too lofty to say that they beleeve as men of yeares who are wrought upon by the word , and prayer . But were it not very harsh to say they are infidels ? Are they not members of a Church in the outward covenant of christianity as well as others ? Have they not read of the seedes of faith , in such ? or that Christ speaking of little ones , saith , they beleeve in his name ? It may be , he speakes of such as were admitted already into the covenant of circumcision : but may not they judge charitably of Bastards , in such a case , seeing ye see , or may see ( in the issue ) bastards to live graciously in the bosome of the Church ? If they know none such , yet I doe ; blessed be God. Secondly , they say that the fathers and mothers of bastards are unbeleevers : because they are unjust , they worke from the flesh , they are shut out of the Kingdome of heaven , and they provide not for their owne : and thus they reason . They that are unjust , bring forth the fruits of the flesh , shut themselves out of the kingdome of heaven , and provide not for their owne as they ought , are unbeleevers . But fathers and mothers of bastard are such : therefore they are unbeleevers . To this I answer two waies . First in generall , by using their own reason layed otherwise thus . They that are unjust , live in the flesh , shut themselves out of heaven & proprovide not for their own are unbeleevers . But many christian parents of children lawfully begotten are such : therefore they are unbeleevers I confesse there is some difference to be put here betwixt parents of lawfully begotten children , & parents of bastards , because those doe it in an act of justice and goodnesse , and that by Gods ordinance if they doe it as they ought ; and these doe it in an act of impudence and injustice . But if an act of injustice and uncharitablenesse doth of it selfe , make them unbeleevers , as they are such , then it reacheth to the one as well as to the other . But there is no good religion bids us to thinke that an act of injustice in the parents should put a child both into the state of sinne ( in the neglect of a sacrament , ) and into the state of punishment ( in being deprived of it ) when yet the child hath not followed , nor countenanced the parents wickednesse . Secondly , I answer in particular to the argument , and first to the ground of it , that such wicked christians are not so unbelievers as to bee quite unchristianed , and so to be deprived , in themselves , and their bastards of the sign and seale of the covenant . There are two sorts of unbelievers ; unbelievers in part , rnd unbelievers in whole : unbelievers in part , and in some particulars , when the word of God is not so received of them , as the rule of faith and obedience in some particular parts of it as it ought . Of these there are to many amongst us , and all christian churches . From hence proceedes that , they not believing the word of chastity , are unchaste , the word of justice , are unjust , and the word of care for children , are carelesse , and the like , Vnbelievers in whole , when christianity is dead in them at the roote ; as when the whole saving word is rejected . This is that unbeliefe which doth unchristian a man and woman , and if it be finall , is a state of Paganisme . Though ( it may be ) there be such parents in the eyes of God ; ( yet I thinke ) few or none are such among Christians in the eies of the church . They will all professe to believe in Christ , and when they are convincingly moved , will lament their sins , and promise to doe so no more . To the application of the argument to fathers and mothers of bastards in a christian church , that they are such , is an unsufficient plea. And whether they bee so , to the cutting of them off from Christianity in generall , and making their bastards unbaptizable , judge by what is said , and what followeth . Secondly , they give another reason thus . They that have no grace already conferred , are not to bee made partakers of the signe and seale of grace . But bastards have not grace conferred , they neither actually believing , nor being borne of christian parents : and therefore they are not to bee baptized , I answer , they meane not ( I thinke ) the inward grace of actuall faith , such as Abraham had ; for then , why was Ishmael circumcised ? But they meane the outward grace of having right to the signe and seale of the covenant ; and thus their application to bastards is false : understand their argument thus . They that have not the outward grace of right to the signe and seale of the covenant , are not baptizable . What though Abraham had true actuall faith when hee submitted to circumcision , doth it follow that all that succeed him in circumcision should have so also ? Prove that and turne Anabaptists : take away circumcision and baptisme from all infants . Therefore I deny the application , that bastards of wicked christians have not the grace of right to baptisme . They have a right to receive that right whereto their parents have a right to convey : and certainely these have a right to convey the right of baptisme to their children ; both as they are believers of the word of salvation by Christ , and as they professe to stand in such a way , though they are wicked and ungodly in particular acts . They have a right also to the offers of grace in a christian church , and so have a right to baptisme : for heerein God offereth grace by way of signe , and seale of Gods covenant . To understand this , conceive these two points . First , the difference of the offer of grace to them within , and to them without the church . They without have a right to it in the word : for I may preach the word to a Iew , Turke , Heathen , if hee come within my limit , and will heare . But they within have a right unto it in the word , and sacraments , according to Christs commission . Secondly , the priviledge they have by it , is , not to bee graffed into the body of Christ , according to the election of grace , but according to the profession of the Gospel , and the state of the church visible heere . Thus their reasons are voide from proving that bastards are not baptizable . Now marke what reasons they make , and finde against them , and what they answer . First , some of the bastards predecessours Objection . 1 have beene believers , and this is sufficient to admit them to baptisme , according to the promise made to believers , and to their posterity . This is a poore objection , thus propounded . For what Iew , Turke , or Pagan is there , who may not pretend that some of their predecessours have beene believers , if the Gospell have beene preached thorough the world . They must be predecessours in a christian church , in outward covenant with God. But let us see their answer . They give a text to prove the contrary , and require a text to oppose them . Their text is Saint Paules , who speaking of immediate parents , saith , except one of them are believers , their children are uncleane , but now ( by the faith of one ) they are holy . They will not prove ( I hope ) that believers children are holy by an infused , or derived holinesse from them : for from them they are the children of wrath , but onely that they have a foederall holinesse , by which they have a right to bapti●me . Neither will they prove that it is necessary to a childs baptisme , to have immediate predecessours such believers , as doe in all things contrary to such sinnes as doe wound or waste a good conscience . It is enough i● one be a believet , that is , a doctrinall christian , though like the worst in the church of Corinth . If hee bee a Iew , the Apostle calls him circumcision , and if hee professe faith in Christ , hee is a christian for his owne , and his childes baptisme . What though the Apostle speakes of immediate parents there , where hee speakes of a church newly converted to the faith from heathenisme , and so to be a church that wanted predecessours before times ? may wee not therefore make use of other texts more comfortable for us ▪ who have had the Gospel a long time , and that , sealed with such christian bloud ? If now they require a text to oppose them ; let them take that , The promise is to you , and to your children . But they answer , that the unbeliever , and his children , are not the posterity of the believer ; I say , yes , if they be members of a visible church . Those wicked kings of Iudah , that were idolaters , were the posterity of Abraham , and David , and had right to the promi●es made to them , yea , and to the ever blessed Messias , who descended from them . If they repented not , they had no inward comfort from him , yet had they outward right unto him , by vertue of the promises made to Abraham and David . But they say , can uncleane bastards be the seed of the believing ? I answer , that I approve that in these termes they expresse hatred to the sinne : but in that they forget a foederall cleannesse in uncleane christians children , by vertue of Gods promise to believers foregoing them , they goe the right way , not onely to fill he I with bastards , but with true begotten children , whose immediate parents are ( too often ) guilty of greater sinnes then whoredome , though that bee damnable enough . Secondly , they finde another objection ; Objection . 2 God hath promised to shew mercy unto a thousand generations , to them that love him and keepe his commandements . Therefore bastards of wicked Christians are baptizable . The reason should have been put thus : God hath promised to shew mercy to a thousand generations of Israelites in outward communion with him : for otherwise it followes not , that the bastards of christians are baptizable . But what answer they ? They say Solution . 1 three things ; first they say , it followes not : because bastards are not the generation of them that love God , and keepe his commandements . Take heed : was not Davids child got of the wife of Vrijah the generation of them that loved God at all , though in that act David loved him not ? nor was Ishmael the generation of Abraham that loved God , though in that act ( out of ignorāce not wholy excusing ) Abraham loved him not ? yes , as Iosiah was the generation of them that loved God , though Manasseh his father had long and fearefull fits of cruell Idolatry : so in this case , bastards may bee the generation of them that love God , though their immediate Solution . 2 parents in those accursed acts , loved him not . Secondly , they say , that it is one thing to say , that God will shew grace and favour to one , and another thing to say , that he is already in grace , as hee must bee that is baptized . I have answered before , that the bastards of Christians have the grace of right to Baptisme , and that is sufficient in this case : for otherwise , Ishmaels right to Solution . 3 circumcision cannot bee found . Thirdly , they say , that that promise of God in the second commandement may have a double sence , first , that God will extend his mercy to many ages on them that love him , when they are come to age , and capeable of his love by practise . But thus they make them that love God to bee the posterity , when it is plaine , the promise was made to them that received the law then , and were to continue in the profession of saving truth , and so to all others in such a case . Secondly , that God will shew little children favour for their fathers and mothers sake to a thousand generations . But this they thinke , cannot bee meant , neither in deede is , as I conceive Yet then adde a third sence , which they forget , that God will shew the posterity , that continues in the profession of his name , favour ; not for their parents sake , but for his owne sake , for his promise sake , which he makes to them that love him , and that , for many generations ; and then I reason thus . That which keepes the generations to come , who live as professors in the visible Church in covenant with God , that gives infants of such parents right to the seale of the covenant , of which they are capable . But Gods promise to faithfull parents in the visible Church , keepes such generations to come in covenant with God : and therefore have they right to the scale of the covenant , whereof they are capable . Now whereas they aske , whether all children , or some have right ? I answer , all , to the grace of right to Baptisme . Thirdly , they bring forth another objection , Objection . 3 that if bastards bee withheld from Baptisme , there will be no difference put betwixt Bastards and their parents . They answer here what if there be no difference put ? And whatsoever the objection bee , ( for I know not who ownes it ) they runne here a strange course . Out of a desire to honour the seventh commandement , they dishonour the first , and third . Let adultery bee abominable ( because whoremongers and adulterers God will Iudge ) yet let God have his honour in hating infidelity above whoredome . Let not the Scripture bee wronged ; but thoroughly weigh their words . They say first , that Bastards and their parents are all infidels : what ? though their parents bee Christians ? yes surely , say they ; because Saint Paul saith they are worse then infidels . Let them consider , because they are worse then carefull infidels , in not caring for their children ( which is against the fift and eight commandements ) are they worse then infidels in infidelity ? They are christians , yet worse , and better , worse in disgracing their posterity : yet better in beleeving still the doctrine of christianity , and so giving a right to baptisme . But they say further , that parents of bastards are worse in state then Turkes , and they would prove it from a Text of finall Apostacy : but what proofe this can be against an act of whoredome ( in the passion of lust , clowding reason in an heate ) I cannot tell ? Let a Turk be a Turk , but no worse ; and let a damnable Harlot be an harlot , but no worse . Her state is bad enough to bring her to hell without Objection . 4 repentance , but not to exclude her child from baptisme , if she be a Christian at large . Fourthly , they meete with another objection , that Bastards are borne , & the Church is their Mother ; therefore baptisme ought not to be denyed them . It should have beene put thus ; they are borne of Christian parents , who by profession are members of the Church , and so the Church is their Mother , and the mother of their seede ; and therefore to bee baptized . But in their answer , they fall into two errors . First , that the Church is a company of true beleevers whō God bath chosen to eternall life ; which Church I pray ? Not that whereof new borne bastards of Christian parents are by profession members . The holy Catholike Church , and proper body of Christ , may be defined by beleevers in that sence of it : but that the visible Church , in the outward face of it , is thus defined , wants warrant in the word of Christ . Thus the Church is a number of persons united according to the word . in the profession of saving truth , whether they are elect , or no. Their second error is , that Bastards are infidels ; for this can not bee conceived of bastards of Christian parents , as is before proved . Objection . 5 Fiftly , they yet finde more arguments to oppose them : Bastards may belong to Gods election , and therefore are not to be denyed Baptisme : It should have beene thus set : They may belong to Gods election as members of the visible Church : for otherwise election may belong to Jewes and Turkes , who yet are not Baptizable without personable profession . But they answer thus , it must not be said , they may belong , but they doe belong to Gods election : for otherwise the signe is not to bee administred unto them . Doe they consider how thus they take away Baptisme from all men , women , and children ? The Lord knowes who are his and the Church reaches but to the judgement of charity . A judgement of certainety , to warrant us in these acts is no where granted , though baptisme bee deferred to the last gaspe for any thing knowne to me of faith . Objection . 6 Sixtly , they further finde another argument against them ▪ that if bastards were denied baptisme , this were to make the children to beare the iniquity of their Parents . But may they not rather thus dispute ? The children whose parents have a right to baptisme , have also a right to baptisme themselves , notwithstanding their parents personal faults ; for otherwise they shall be punished for parents faults : But the christian parents of bastar●s have a right to baptisme themselves : and therefore so have their children . They have a right of possession to the baptisme they have : and a right of expectation to the comfort of it , upon their faith and repentance . But take their answer , and they say foure things . First , that they do not meane to deny baptisme , but to defer it . Indeed heere is some charity , but not enough , upon former grounds , Againe they say , to defer baptisme is not to punish them for their parents sinnes ; yes that it is , if it bee meerely inflicted for parents sinnes . Though the baptisme of children of believers is not to remunerate them for their parents righreousnesse , but a blessing upon them for Gods promise sake to believers ; yet to deprive infants of it meerely for parents sake , is a punishment for parents sinnes . Thirdly they say , that the Prophet Ezekiel speaks of actuall sinnes of great ones , and not of little childrens sinnes : and when they have sayd thus , they confesse it is not to the purpose heere . Yet consider this point : Can any man be guilty of the personal sinne of another , with whom onely there is communion of suffering , and not of sinning ? God forbid , and yet such is the case of infants from us . Lastly they aske , what danger is it if bastards should bee unbaptized till they are of yeares ? I answer , there are dangers more then one . The danger of injustice at large , in withholding a right from them : yea , may I not call it sacriledge ? The danger of the neglect of this ordinance , which is the ordinary way of God for entrance into the visible church . And the danger of elevating baptisme above the mind of Christ , who will have grace offered to all entring christians in it , yea , and given by way of promise and covenant which shall not faile to the receivers . Lastly , they yet finde another reason against Objection . 7 them : that though the parents of bastards have greatly sinned , yet we ought to judge charitably of them , and of their children . I lay it downe otherwise , thus : They who ( at least ) in the judgement of charity are christians , ought not to have their children kept from baptisme : but the parents of bastards in a christian church , are ( at least ) in the judgement of charity christians , ( for otherwise they were rebaptizable ) therefore their children ought not to be kept from baptisme . Now take their answer . They say , the judgement of charity ought alwaies to be according to truth . This is true , of truth probably presumed . But what doe they assume ? that whoremongers and harlots cannot bee judged such while they are in their sinnes , which make them unbelievers . But say , I pray : Is their sin properly against faith or manners ? Is the bad working , or idlenesse of faith , in this sinne against manners , of such power , as utterly to roote out their doctrinall faith , which yet is sufficient to intitle their children to baptisme ? If they answer but these demands well , they shall see their owne errours . Thus have I taken in by the way , a view of th●s question , which ●s not an every day doubt , and is usefull ●or the quieting of many godly persons in this particular ▪ and my conclusion is this . That in the reforming of our visible church , which consisted of visible christians before ( though much out of order ) wee , their seed , in their right , and so in a right of our owne were more purely baptized , and so made true members of our true visible church , whatsoever Brownists plead to the contrary . For as bastards of christian parents have a right to bee baptized into their parents christianity : so much more had wee into ours . Our predecessours had a state whereof they repented ; and so have these of which they should . If neither of them repented as they should , yet were both of them true christians : and so both their posterities were rightly baptized , and made true members of a true visible church : i● not for such governement as Brownists dreame of , yet to be governed as members of Gods house , for conviction , or conversion to life . SECT . 10. Brownists third exception against us about the head of our Church . WEe having now done what the Brownists do mean by a true church and the falsitie of it ; and with the entrance into it : wee are now come unto their third exception , taken from the head of a true visible church . They finde from time to time our kings to interpose their authority over every particular assembly in our church , for the keeping of them in pious , and peaceable wayes , according to the lawes of God and our church , and common-wealth : and because they fansie no visible churches , but particular congregations , which must bee fully furnished from Christ , with power of governing themselves : and they doe perceive withall that the supreame authority of a king over churches , doth ( according to kingly duty ) hinder their erecting of new waies , and tie them up to observe the laudable customes of the church : therefore ( as if they willingly subscribed to the speech of Gallio , that wicked deputy of Achaia , If it were a matter of wrong , or wicked lewdnesse , O yee Iewes , reason would that I should beare with you , but if it be a question of words , and names , and of your law , looke yee to it , for I will be no judge of such matters ) , they cry out , wee have no head but Christ : he shall rule over us : we will wait upon him onely : but you have another head , and that is the king , whose lawes you follow for government of the church , and upon whom ye do depend for building , or pulling downe whatsoever Christs law saith . Now , to pricke and open this blister , consider , 1 That Christ is the head of the catholicke Church , 2 That Christ is the head of particular Churches . 3 That Christ is the head of our church . 4 That the headship of the king , doth not hinder but helpe this , and that according to Christs word . That Christ is the head of the catholicke church , no christian will deny , or if hee doe , he will bee convinced by scriptures , which teach him to bee the head of the body , even his church . He hath in him most perfectly , whatsoever may be for the life and salvation of his church . He hath all things subjected to him for the behoofe of his church . He takes up all debates , suites , quarrels , and controversies betwixt God and his church , as a counsellour , advocate , yea , husband for his wife . Hee is the Prince of our salvation , the proper fountaine of all spiriruall life and governement . No head is such an head as hee is : Politicall heads give the influence of civill favour ; Oeconomicall heads of houshold , and wedlocke favours : but this all-sufficient spirituall head , of saying favours , spiritual blessings in heavenly things . This therefore is certaine , that thousands in this catholicke church doe runne into folly , rebellion , and blasphemy . Into folly ; because they doe things without the generall , or particular direction of Christ : Christ is not in all their counsels . Into rebellion , because they doe things against the direction of Christ : let Christ say what he will , they will do what they list . Into blasphemy , because they think not Christs counsel worth the while , s● long as they can shift without it : it is good when they are sicke , but if well , it is but as Elias to Ahab , a troubler of Israel . These may be in the catholicke church , they are not of it , because Christ is not their head by infusion of grace . Secondly , it is true also , that he is the head of particular churches , and visible assemblies . Therefore the church of Corinth is called the body of Christ , and members in particular . This church ( as any other particular church ) may be considered two wayes : In it selfe , and so it was a body : with reference to other churches , and so it was a member of the catholick church . But consider it both , or either of these wayes ; if it bee the body of Christ , if a member of his body , or if both , Christ is the head of it : hee is in the midst of the seven golden candlestickes . Therefore also the church of Ephesus , is called the house of God : and as in an house there is an head , the husband is the wifes head ; so , but more transcendently , is Christ the head of every particular house or church . For God hath set his sonne over his own house , and our high-priest is over the house of God. This is t●ue . But thirdly , say the Brownists , what is that to us ? Christ is not our head . Yes , Christ is the head of our church of England . For doe but consider 1 Wherein Christs headship stands ? 2 How hee useth and exerciseth it ? Christs headship doth stand in providing fit meanes for the gathering and enlarging of his visible church , or churches , and making them effectuall . There is a foundation to bee layd , which properly is Christ , and for , and from him the Prophets , and Apostles . There are builders , yea master builders , as well as others , to bee provided . There are materials to be at hand , saints by calling some of which grow up to be lively stones , a spirituall house , that they may be Gods building . These faithfull ones must be laied and coupled together , as by joints , till they grow into an holy temple , for the habitation of the Lord , by the spirit . Now , that this may be done , Christ is the principal agent , he adds unto his church , that they may come to the father by him . And withall hee provides his word , that they might believe , and ministers , by whom they may doe it : and the sacraments , that they may bee baptized into his death , and have the communion of the bloud of Christ . Hee rests not heere , but to make them effectual , in the use of these means , hee comes amongst these citizens with the saints , and grants to those that by grace receive the spirit which is of God , repentance unto life , and faith to purifie their hearts : and so hee addeth to the church from day to day , a great number that believe and turne unto the Lord. But for those that come in to the voyce of the word , and supper of the gospel in word and sacraments , and have Simon Magus , Iudas , Hymeneus , Alexander , and Demas his heart , if the conviction of themselves , and the conversion of others , and their perseverance doe them no good , he shewes sometimes what they deserve , by fearefull judgements , and the censures of the church , but hee will shew it in full power when the great day of separation comes . Now looke , ( in the feare of God ) whether our ever blessed Iesus Christ bee not thus our head . Have wee not ( thorough grace ) the word of God , gifts , ministery , and sacraments from Christs rule ? Say the Brownists , ye have not all Christs ordinances , yee want his discipline . To that I shall speake in due place : in the meane time , put case it were true ; yet were it a true visible church , though not a perfect one . That is an ordinance for the comely and well being , not for the being of the church . But it lies upon them to prove that , what they say we want , are Christs ordinances , and branches or his kingdome . This they never can doe by the undoubted word of Christ . Besides , hath not Christ our head , in the use and exercise of these blessings manifested his effectuall power ? How many iniquities are subdued , and sinnes cast into the depthes of the sea ? what place is there , where we shall not find the serpents head broken ? Some have beene in their ordinary businesses , as the woman of Samaria , and have come off with the bells of the horses , pots in Ierusalem , and Iudah ? as well as pots in the Lords house , engraved with holinesse unto the Lord. Some have been disciplined with the misery of the h●sks of swine , and have beene translated out of the kingdome of darkenesse , into the kingdome of Gods deare sonne . Some have heard and read good things to scoffe and cavill at them , but have been suddenly changed from glory , to glory , as by the spirit of the Lord. Some have breathed out the stinking breath of sinne , as Saul , and others have seene the heates of persecutions , and they have returned home to call upon the name of the Lord Iesus , both theirs and ours . Yea , and some have seene others fall away from the faith of Christ , and by the preaching of Christ , have met with graffing in , the riches of the Gentiles , reconciling , and salvation . And though with Christ they have had a sword sent , yet bonds in Christ have beene famous , and the brethren in the Lord have waxed confident , and bold to speake the word without feare . Thus hath it beene with our blessed church : the kingdome of heaven hath suffered violence , and the violent have taken it by force . But the ministery of the Brownists hath had no such communion , and influence , with , and from Christ our head ; one of a city , two of a tribe , heere a little , and there a little , doth not answer , in a continuall course from Christ hither , the power of Christs intercession , for the heathen for his inheritance , and the uttermost part of the earth for his possession . But ( say the Brownists ) wee have other heads besides Christ . I say we have no other mysticall head beside Christ ; but onely politicall heads to keepe peace , and to see that every person , within their compasse , doe his duty religiously . Thus the husband is the wives head ; the honorable man the head ; Saul , the head of the Tribes ; and Moses chose men of courage , and made them heads over the people . But ( say they ) our King is our head , so as to rule in matters of religion . This is true : yet ( fourthly ) co●sider that this headship of the King doth not hinder ●ut helpe the advancement of Christs headship , and that according to the word of Christ . To cleare this , follow mee in two particulars . 1 That God hath given a power of governement to the Church for the well ordering of it selfe . 2 That Christ hath made Kings prime officers to advance it in their places . As a man cannot well be without cloathes & good nourture : so neither can the Church well be without the walles of government . She must also bee able to hold up her head against her enemies that shall say , by what authority dost thou these things , and who made thee a man of authority ? Therefore hath Christ given the particular , or generall rules of the word , to give a commission to the Church to governe it selfe both in matters of substance , and in matters of circumstance . In matters of substance it hath power to governe it selfe , by ordering concerning the Word , Sacraments and Prayer , so as to make them most comfortable : concerning Church Offices from time to time , and duties of charity : concerning the Churches censures , publike assemblies , and oversight that all these bee done to the honour of Christ , and advancement of religion . In matters of Circumstances , it hath power to ordaine some outward rites and ceremonies for the outward carriage of Gods worship . In the Church of Antioch there was a question a-about Circumcision ( an uselesse , because dying ceremony then . ) The Apostles , Elders , and brethren at Ierusalem ( by their consent and to encourage them in grace ) consulted about it , and delivered their judgement as a rule for the Church to follow . They disanulled the ceremony of Circumcision in those Churches troubled : and establish others for a time , as abstaining from meate offered to Idoles and bloud : which yet in themselves were but things indifferent . For meate commendeth us not to God : for neither if we eate , are we the better ; neither if we eate not , are wee the worse . Againe in the Church of Corinth , there was a custome which grew to a publicke order in the Church , of covering and uncovering , to signifie the headship and soveraignty of the man , and the subjection of the woman . This was countenanced by the Apostle for the peace of the Church , and other otders established . Yea when he purposely treateth of acts of ordinary and extraordinary worship , hee gives them rules for the government and outward carriage of them , let all things bee done to edyfyng , and let all things be done decently and in order . Thus in matters of substance hath Christ made his Church able to governe it selfe by particular rules , and in matters of circumstance by generall rules of edification , order , and decency . Secondly , he hath also made Kings prime officers to advance this governement in their places . That hee hath made them Church-officers must be thus taken up . Not strictly , as Ministers , who have the highest hand under Christ in the Word , Sacraments , and keyes of censures Ecclesiasticall ▪ but largely , as those that are to care for good order about them . The offices of ruling and governing which Paul speakes of , cannot be proved not to belong to them . They are Ministers for our good : and our good is not chiefely civil ( I hope ) but spirituall . The Apostle would have us pray for them , that we may not onely live in civill honesty , but in Godlinesse , to bee countenanced , and established by them ? Surely being members of Church , they cannot but be chiefe ones too , as being Christs Lieftenants , who according to his promise are to bee nursing fathers , and their queenes nurcing mothers , who have their authority , breasts and duggs to reach the neede of all under them , to cherish and feede the Church of Christ according to his rules . It is true , they are servants to the Church , and all good Kings doe so acknowledge themselves : but not to be equals , or subjects to the members of the Church ; but to make their prime authority serviceable to the advancement of the Gospel for the salvation of Christs people . Hence is it that God hath given them a sword , that when they oversee the waies of the Church within their reach , they may maintaine the rights of it , and by a coactive and coercive power suppresse the opposites : for without this they cannot be the ministers of God for our good . But ( say the Brownists ) wherein stands this office of Kings in the Church , and over the members of it ? I answer , first , in calling of assemblies both civill and sacred . The two silver Trumpets wer given to Moses the magistrate : and least we should looke upon him as some extraordinary person , we see that right maintained by Ioshua , David , Solomon , Iehoshaphat , Hezekiah , and Iosiah . Secondly , in abolishing false worship , and establishing true , as we see in Asa , Iosiah , Hezikiah . Thirdly , in looking to the ministry , both that it bee sound and good ( as Solomon , who thereupon deposed Abiathar , and put Sadock in his roome , as hee performed other acts of justice by royall authority , and Iehosaphat who sent his princes to see that the Priests and Levites did teach the law of God in their cities : ) and that the ministery bee maintained according to the honours that God hath bestowed upon them , as Solomon , Hezekiah , Iosiah , and Nehemiah . Fourthly , in causing the people to serve the Lord , as Hezekiah , and compelling all that were round in Israel ( formerly professing Gods religion ) to seeke the Lord as Iosiah and Asa : Their people were in the house of God committed to their charge , and they will see them to live according to the order set by God. Lastly , in appointing consistories for the well ordering of the people ; as Iehoshaphat , who set over the Levites and Priests , and chiefe of the families of Israel , for the judgement and cause of the Lord at Ierusalem . All this is true ( say they ) of the Jewish kings , who were types of Christ : but wee reade of no such officers in the new testament . These men are liberall in making types of Christs kingdome ; but I wonder whence they will prove it , what word of Christ will they bring for it ? It is true , that in some things , some of the kings of Iudah were types of Christ ( as Salomon in his name and building the the temple , and David in his troubles , and victories , and as hee was a king , and a prophet ) : but that all the kings of Iudah were types in their governements over the church and state , even Saul himselfe , when God made him head of the tribes , cannot bee proved for Gods truth . And whereas they talke of no such officers in the new testament . Say it bee so : there were no christian Magistrates while those scriptures were in writing : and Christ knew them to be sufficiently instructed in the old . This is a sure rule , that what is warranted in the old testament , and not contradicted in the old or new , may ( as the warrant goes , either by precept for things necessary , or paterne for things lawfull ) goe for currant still . But seeing the new testament saith , that wee must pray for kings , that by their authority wee may live in godlinesse , as by those that are over us for our good , spirituall and temporall , surely , they have warrant enough to use their power , over all their people to advance godlinesse , and the good of religion as well as justice . But ( say they ) it is for Christ , not for kings , to appoint orders about his worship . This is true for substantiall orders ; for these thas are in the will of Christ may not be altered : but for matters of circumstance , which concerne time , place , and outward forme , not determined , kings are bound , as supreame members of the church , over which they are , to use christian consistories to order them , so as may agree to the condition of his church , as well as the master of a family may command his steward to order his whole family , that the private worship in his family be not dishonoured . This ads both to the glory and strength of a church : to the glory of it , when kings are nourcing fathers ; and to the strength of it , when the power of a king is the churches , for the suppressing of vice , and maintenance of vertue . But then ( say they ) they may enjoine their owne inventions in stead of Gods will. I answer , that the inventions of men are of two sorts : of things contrary to the word of Christ , as worshipping of images , invocation of saints , forbidding marriage and meats , as these things which directly pollute persons , or times , or the like . These are impious : and it these are enjoined , christians must patiently suffer , and lovingly mourne , till in the day of Judgment God fanne away the chaffe . But there are others , which in their owne nature are indifferent , neither commanded nor forbidden by God ; and of which Christ saith , hee that is not against us , is with us . In these the christian magistrate hath a power for order , and uniformity . For if Godly persons may bring up customes in the times of Gods worship , as the Jewes did their Purim : and if Christians may order what garments women may weare when they come to church ( which Paul after allowed ) why ▪ may not the christian magistrate for the peace of his whole body ? But then ( say they ) this makes things arbitrary , and indifferent to become necessary . This is true : but you must conceive that a thing may bee said to bee necessary two waies ; necessary in it selfe , and necessary in the outward submission to the use of it . In it selfe , a thing indifferent cannot bee made necessary . It is alwaies as it is by nature , and conscience informed must so judge it , yet in the outward use , for the peace of the Church , it may upon command , become necessary . After the death of Christ , till the destruction of the temple , abstaining from things strangled , and bloud , circumcision , legall vowes , and purifyings were indifferent in themselves , ( for else the Apostles would not have used them so ) : yet for the peace of some churches they were judged necessary to be yeelded in love ; and so may it bee in other things : yet the indifferent nature of things is not taken away , but the necessary use prescribed , for the peace of the church , upon better grounds then that wee should suffer our selves to be unsetled from royall power . But againe ( say they ) then kings may require such things as swarve from some holy patternes wee have in the scriptures ; and so by granting this governement , wee shall bee ill to helpe , I say , howsoever they use it , wee must grant what God hath given , as they are all the keepers of both the tables . If they use it well , thou must obey in the Lord If ill , thy prayers and teares must be thy weapons , and thy body must suffer his penalties , and it is praise worthy for thee to suffer , not in a supposed good cause , but in a good cause without controversie ( which is not the case of sufferers in these dayes of peace and the Gospel so farre as I know ) but for in●oynements , swar●ing from patternes . I finde this in scriptures , that Godly men have swarved from patternes , not seconded by a perpetuall law , which might seeme to bind stron●ly . The Jewes sate at the passover in Christs t●me ( or rather lay leaning ) though the first gesture was standing or walking : and godly men and women communicate in the morning , and in a Church , though the first patterne was otherwise : yea th●s is plaine , that Gods ceremonies might in some cases be dispensed withall without sinne , much more may men bee unlosed from patternes which are not the examples of a law binding so . I know it will be said that the examples of Gods people ( commended by the holy Ghost ) are every whit of as great ●orce as a command . It is true , if they be examples of a rule : otherwise they shew things lawfull , but not things necessary . Solomon indeede sayes , walke in the way of good men , and keepe the waies of the righteous . But good men , and righteous men are so with respect to Gods law after which they walke ; otherwise they are not so , though b●ng so good , they may give a patterne of that which is lawfull , but not necessary . My conclusion is this , that the Chur●h hath power to governe it se● ; by particular lawes in matters of substance , and by g●neral in the outward carriage of order , comlinesse , and edification . And when a king , as head of governement under Christ , puts in ●his authority and power for seeing things carried within the churches of his kingdome according to these rules , hee is a prime officer under Christ by Christs owne promise , and appointment , whatsoever Brownists can say against it . If they wil stil stand against it ( for few of them are found so humble as to search , and yeeld ) they cannot but know this , that in breaking the lawes of men that are not against Christ , they sinne against conscience . And as magistrates are incouraged to bee great helps to religion by obedience , so , by the contrary , they are provoked to trouble . This therefore is a sure rule , that a Christian that will not study to be quiet , in respect of the laws of men , what possible he can , is a singular burthen to the Church in which he lives . SECT . 11. Brownists fourth exception against us , about the members of our Church . WEe are now come from the Brownists meaning by a true Church , and their entrance into , and head of a true church , to the members of a true church . Heere they take on amaine , that the true members of a true Church ought to be saints by calling ; whereas ours are a mixture of good and bad , penitent , and impenitent , to the pollution of the whole body : and that , therefore we are not a true church . But this still discovers strange weaknesse . For put case a man had never a good finger , nor hand , never a good toe , nor foote , never a haire on head , or beard ; or if he have all his members , yet he hath the palsie in one , the goute in another , blindenesse in another , deafenesse in another , botches in another , numnesse and deadnesse in another , is hee therefore no true man ? Surely hee is a true man still , though a miserable one . So is it in a visible church ; many members may bee weake , and many wicked , as well as some truely gracious ; and yet , in the whole body a true church still . Peter and Iohn met with a beggar , at the gate of the temple called Beautifull , who was faine to be carried , because he was lame from his mothers wombe , and yet the holy Ghost calls him , a certaine man : and Paul met with an Apostolicall Church in Corinth , which was worse in many members then that poore cripple was , and yet hee called it a true church of God : for the God of truth admits of no falshood . But to cleare this more fully , I shall by ( Gods assistance ) consider three things : 1 What they say true , of their owne members and ours . 2 What they say false , of the members of a true visible church . 3 That their dreame of pollution , is from their owne braines , not from Christs ordinance . This they say truely , that the members of a true church are saints by calling . Profession of saving truth ( as I have shewed ) makes such true members ; and all that so professe themselves ( though there be much chaffe among the wheate ) are such saints by calling . He that professeth so much knowledge , either actually , or foederally , as admits him to baptisme , hath put on Christ . And he that hath put on Christ , though as an elect vessell as Paul , or as one in Christ bearing no fruit , and therefore justly to be cut off , is certainely a saint by calling . There are two sorts of saints by calling : such as are sanctified by habituall infusions , and actual expressements ; and such as are so by baptismal profession , and many gifts of the spirit , and so by consecration to God. This may fall upon those that are justly rejected for their hypocrisie and wickednesse These two sorts , have ever and ever shall ( to the end of the world ) make up the true members of a true visible church . This secondly , they say falsely , that the members of a true visible church , are onely such saints as are so regenerated , as they have actual communion with Christ in all the acts of saving grace . If they would sp●ake of the Catholick Church . It is the number of all faithfull people , which are united to Christ by the union of the body , head , spirit , and faith of truth . By the first , all members are knit together with the head in one body : and so receive grace from the head according to the measure of everie member . By the second , it hath but one head : As the body is but one , so the head is but one , from whence it receiveth the grace of life . By the third , the whole Church is directed and governed by one spirit , which is the spirit of sanctification . And by the fourth , the whole church receiveth the doctrine once given to the saints , which it cleaves unto for ever , that in this foundation , and love of union it may receive from Christ all saving doctrine , with the comfortable fruits of it . If they would speake of this catholick church , let them draw up the members to that sanctitie which the word , and world , will affoord . Nay , if they would speake of such members of the visible church , who shall from Christ receive al spiritual blessings in heavenly things , and be jointed into the body of Christ , till they come to a perfect man , unto the measure of the stature of the fulnesse of Christ ; let them speake of all holinesse too , so far as our knowledge in part can reach unto in this kingdome of heaven upon earth . If further they would speak of such members as are fittest to beare rule in the visible church : surely though Iudas be in as well as Peter by Christs his call , and yong Timothy , can worke the worke of the Lord as Paul doth : yet surely they that are best , and of ablest gifts are fittest for highest places in the visible church . Which because the Brownists perceive , therefore they having set up to themselves a governement of all the members ( which they cannot make good ) they thinke not onely the holiest persons to bee the fittest , but the onely members of their visible churches . If lastly , they would speake of those that are the greatest comforts , and ornaments of a visible church : then surely , holy persons are . For Davids eies runne over with water , when members in the church , as well as others kept not Gods law : yea , and it is a fearfull reproach , and tending to corruption to them that favour it . But when they speake of such members onely in the visible church , who are so holy as they imagine , to whom if others joyne themselves in spirituall communion , they are unchurched ; this surely hath no ground , but in their owne braine . This is an undoubted rule , that it is Gods will that a mixed company be invited to the wedding of Christ , the feast of the gospell , which makes up a visible church . The wedding of Christ is either compleate in heaven , or begunne in the church . To that in heaven , a mixed company is not invited , but conditionally , for no uncleane thing shall enter into the kingdome of heaven . To this in the church , a mixed company is invited , and thorough the power of the sweet word of grace , comes both to the word and sacraments ; as Symon Magus to baptisme , and the drunken and factious Corinthians to the supper of the Lord. And that it is Gods will to invite a mixed company appeares by texts , examples , and reasons . The text is cleare in Gods commission , Goe ye into the high-wayes , and as many as ye finde , invite to the marriage : and also in his servants execution , they went , and gathered together all ▪ as many as they found , both good and bad . All these were members of this feast , till God came and made the separation : and when he did come , hee blamed not his servants for inviting , and guests for being in communion with the unworthy , but friend , how camest thou in hither ? But ( say they ) what is this kingdome of heaven ? Is it not the world ? Doth not Christ himselfe so expound it in opening the parable of the tares ? The Field is the world . It is true , hee saith the field is the world , but hee saith not the kingdome of heaven is the world . Surely , the whole world lies in wickednesse , and is farre different from the kingdom of heaven in the church· Therfore doth not Christ say , the kingdome of heaven is like to the world , but it is like unto a man , this man is the son of man , who raiseth to himselfe a visible church heere . This he raiseth not in Jury onely , but ( now the separation wall is broken downe ) in the world . Here by vertue of his Gospel , he doth sow the children of the Kingdome , according to that promise of old , I will sowe her to mee in the earth . But the Devill , that envies Christs Kingdome ( not the world ) sowes the Tares which are the children of that wicked one . These Tares grow up in the Kingdome of Heaven , which is in the field of the world , with the good seed , and so long as the Divell is the Divell , and envies , it will be so . And it is Christs Judgement concerning them , Let them alone , till the harvest , least while ye pluck up the Tares , yee pull up the Wheate . Surely they were other than the weeds of the world out of the Church . These might have been plucked up without dangering the Church . They were blasted Corne upon one stalke , which from the power of the Gospel were called into the Church , but degenerated by the supersowing of Satan , into wickednesse in life and doctrine ; and so became as these Tares , which grow up together with this good seed till the Harvest . Thus the Text is cleare . Next for examples , looke to all the visible Churches that ever were , and they stand for a mixed company . In Adams house there was a Cain , in Noahs a Cham , and in Christs a Judas . But ( say they ) these were cast out . It is true , some way or other , but while they were in , they were true members of the visible Church , as those that could plead , Wee have eate and drunke in thy presence , and thou hast taught in our streets . Have we not by thy Name prophecied , and by thy Name cast out Devils ? Yet , in the Harvest , because they were onely outward , not inward members , they shall heare depart from mee , I know you not , to wit , to save you and bring you to life . As the Temple in Christs dayes was the house of God , and yet , by the mixture , a denne of theeves : so may the visible Church now be Gods Temple , and the habitation of Devils . In the Church of Corinth there were carnall people , an incestuous beast , denyers of the Resurrection , and drunken , and uncharitable partakers of the Sacrament of the Lords Body and Bloud , yet a true visible church of God then ; yea and after , when of all these wicked ones , none was cast out , but that one incestuous person . So in the Church of Galatia , there were false brethren that crept in , revolters from the Faith of Christ , who bewitched others with false doctrine against the foundation , yet was it saluted , and was , a true Church of God. If it seeme strange to men ( who would ingrosse all religion to themselves ) yet it doth not to Christ , who would have done otherwise , but did not for these causes . First , in respect of the Gospel , it is the sweet message of salvation , which cannot but allure all sorts . Who doth not desire salvation ? so long as they like the termes and conditions , they come , heare and receive ; and though they had rather have it upon their owne conditions , yet they desire salvation by Christ , and so all sorts are mixt . Besides the Gospel hath a double use ; to be a savour of life unto life , out of Gods intention : and to be a savour of death unto death , out of mans abuse . So long as God intendeth his grace that bringeth salvation , and appeares unto all men , and man abuseth it to sin that grace may abound , there cannot but bee a mixt company . Secondly , in respect of God : He is willing to manifest his divine goodnesse to all , both Iewes and Gentiles , in tendring the meanes of grace . He would have a ground of his mercy to spare wicked hypocrites for the godlies sake : and it is fit that he have arguments of justice within the Church , that the godly may feare and not sinne . So long as this goodnesse of God holds , and the reason of Gods state and government , there will be a mixed company . Thirdly , in respect of the godly . They must be tryed , and exercised in faith , wisedome , and patience . Heresies must bee amongst thē , that they that are approved might be knowne . As the Canaanites were left among the Israelites to prove them : so are wicked professors among those that are good : yea the goodnesse of the godly , by this meanes , is made more perspicuous . As it is a more grievous fault not to bee good among the good , so it is an high and excellent praise to bee good among those that are wicked ; as Zachary , Elizabeth , Ioseph , the blessed Virgin , Symeon , and Hannah , in bad times , and in a corrupt Church . Fourthly , in respect of Satan and ungodly men . God will not banish Satans malice , no not out of the Church here : therefore as of old , so still he permits him to sowe his tares . And hee would have the wicked to have many cords to draw them to Christ to bee more justly confounded . If the Word , Sacraments , Prayer , and the Examples of good men in the communion of goodnesse , prevaile not with them , their sentence will be manifested to be more just , when it shall be said , binde them hand and foot , cast them into utter darknesse , where shall be wayling , weeping , and gnashing of teeth . So long as God hath godly men in the Church to be tryed , and to be glorified : so long as Satan hath malice , and the wicked are under arguments of just conviction , there will bee a mixed company . Lastly , in respect of the Church , and the use of the Supper , whereunto it is invited , Christ hath committed unto his Church the exercise of censures according to the severall carriages of members . If there were to be none but good , loosing would be enough ; but seeing there are to bee good and bad , binding is necessary also . And that this is provided for members , is certaine ; For ( saith Paul ) what have I to doe to judge those that are without ? And for the use of Christs supper , whereto wee are invited , it is to give both the unions with Christ . The union of profession , and outward covenant ; when men professe themselves to be Christs , and therefore come to the coven●nt , in the word , and seales of it in the sacraments ; from which yet ( alas ) men for their sinnes , are daily cut off : and the union by power , and inward covenant ; when men in Christs wayes are Christs indeed , and therefore come to the covenant and seales , with an humble purpose to abide with him for ever . So long as the church hath censures to exercise upon her unruly members ; and both these unions with Christ hold true , there will be a mixture in the visible Church . But ( say the Brownists ) it is true , there may bee a mixture admitted to the hearing of the word , but not as members of the Church yet . And why so ? Surely , if they heare and consent unto it ( though in hypocrisie ) God accounts them in covenant , and then who shall deny them to be members ? Moses l●id before the face of Israel all the words which the Lord commanded him ; and the people answered , all that the Lord commands we will heare , and doe . This many of them did in hypocrisie , and therefore God complaines , O that there were such an heart in them ! yet marke what the Lord said to Moses , and Moses to the people . To Moses God said , write these words , for after the tenour of these words , I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel : and to the people Moses said , thou hast avouched this day , the Lord to be thy God , and to walke in his wayes , and the Lord hath avouched thee to be his peculiar people . Say I pray ; which of our members doe not thus readily professe ? who will say that he will not heare God , and do his will ? If they doe it in hypocrisie , woe unto them : if they doe it in profession , they are in outward covenant , as Gods people : if they are in covenant , who can denie them to bee members before they are cast out ? But they dreame of other members who must bee chosen into their congregations for governement , as those that have a full right from Christ to give voices for ordinations , elections , excommunications , absolutions , and the like , ( as if all the members of a common-wealth must bee counsellours , if not kings ) but where will they finde in Christs word , that none are members of a visible church , but those that are admitted members for government , I cannot tell , except they have a new testament not knowne to us . It is true , that Peter calleth Gods people , a chosen generation , a royal priest-hood , an holy nation . But I hope , he doth not write to any particular visible church , but to the dispersed saints in divers churches , that were elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father , None will deny these to be true members of the churches where they live : and if they doe deny others , who have not such high graces as these had , to be members of a visible church as well as they , ( though notwithstanding their profession to bee servants of Christ , they flatter with their mouth , and lie with their tongues , because their heart is not right with God , neither are they stedfast in his covenant ) they must denie the whole course of scripture , which must judge them at the latter day . But ( say they ) how can the wicked bee members of the church of Christ , seeing Christ is not their head ? Christ hath told no man thus . For though he be not their head by infusion of saving and sanctifying graces of the spirit unto eternall life : yet is he their head : ( as they are his members ) by professed governement . A good husband is the head of a wicked wife : and a good king is the head of wicked subjects : so Christ is the head of wicked members , to draw them to better courses , or to have them brought forth to bee slaine before him , because they will not that hee rule over them as he should . But ( say they ) the visible church is the kingdome of heaven : and wicked men are not the members of that . The kingdome of heaven stands in righteousnesse , peace , and joy in the holy Ghost : of this kingdome they are not members . But the kingdome of heaven is like unto a net , that gathered of every kinde ; of this kingdome they are members , till Christ cast away the bad in the end of the world . They are not in this kingdome by the power of godlinesse : they are in this kingdome by profession , and presence among and with the meanes of salvation , till the kingdome be removed from them . But ( say they ) wicked men are dead : and how can dead members bee members of a living body ? Iust as an unfruitfull , or rotten branch , is a branch , till it be cut off ; that bough is dead , ( say wee ) yet is a bough . That member is gangrenated , yet is a member till the Chirurgions knife comes and hath done its office . Sardis was a true visible church , yet had but a name to live , but was dead : so may wicked men be in the church , as members for outward communion , but not for inward comfort . Well ( say they ) : put case that wicked Christians are members of the visible church till they are cut off ; yet they should bee cut off in a true church , whereas they continue in yours , and are not cut off . Put case this charge were true ; yet Christ learnes not to argue from thence , that ours is no true church . This may make us a corrupt church , but not a false one . How many wicked members were in the only church of God in Christs time ; yet he separates not from it as a false church ? For as a tree , or man , or beast , may have corrupt members , yet not be false creatures in their kindes : so may it bee in a Church . And rashly to separate from such members , will not prove the correction of them , but their hinderance in good , when they see themselves contemned without conviction and judgement . Thus are they put further from the Kingdome of Heaven , and made seven-fold the child of hell more , to the hazard of all . But this is false that ungodly men are not cut off from our true Church . They are cut off two wayes , by acts of the state , and acts of the Church . The State , when they are judiciously tryed , cuts off many of them by the Gallowes : and in the Church they are cut off three wayes ; Ministerially , when by declaring Christs pleasure what they should be , and denouncing his wrath against them for what they are , the vile are separated from the precious , as those that have no actuall right to the salvation of Christ : professionally , when Gods good people pray against their wickednesse , reprove it , complaine against it , and practise otherwise in wills , affections , and whole courses , and are payed for it with their reproaches and persecutions : and lastly , Ecclesiastically , when by processe and publike tryall , they are cast out of our Synagogues and assemblies . If all tast not the bitternesse of this censure ( when Church-officers remember not the Oath of God , and so through feare , favour , and affection , bring them not before the Churches tribunall ) yet many doe to be examples to all , as in the Church of Corinth , whereof many wicked persons one incestuous beast was cast out . But ( say they ) you should separate from them all , at least in the Sacrament of the Lords Supper . The Apostle Paul saw all the disorders in the Church of Corinth , yet taught not a separation in this Sacrament , but gave this rule of remedy , Let a man examine himselfe : and to the Galatians he saith , Every man shall beare his owne burthen . Though in duties of charity we must beare one anothers burthens , yet in rendring of accounts , we must beare our owne : Which , were it well observed , it would make them more carefull to reforme themselves , then curiously to pry into , and censure others . Againe , put case wicked persons come to our Communions of the Body and Bloud of Christ , wee should not separate from them , but they should separate from us : It is but theirs by their profession , but it is ours by our power of grace . When things are naught wee must separate , but when they are good wee must stay in our owne right . It was sinne in Israel to separate from the sacrifices , for the mixture of Elies wicked sonnes whom God would destroy . But because this doth sticke so much with them , and their partners , that wicked men come to our Sacrament of the Lords Supper , I shall therefore ( by Gods helpe ) cleare these three particulars : 1 What right a wicked man hath by vertue of the gospel to this sacramēt ? 2 What benefit he can have from it ? 3 VVhat separation Gods word will warrant from such receivers ? For the first the sacrament hath a double office : to offer grace to them that will receive it according to their profession ; and to exhibit this grace offered to the worthy receiver . It doth the first , as a signe , the bread , and wine of the Lord ; these proclaime to all comers , that Christ is to bee had in the use of them , if they bee so disposed as they should , to take him . It doth the second as a seale , the bread and wine , which is the communion of the Lord. These proclaime to the faithfull , that they shall not onely have bread and wine , but Christ the Lord , as that Mannah that came downe from heaven to feede them to eternall life . The wicked Christian hath a right unto it as it offers grace , which he hath truely offered to him , on Gods part , in his invitation if hee will take it on Gods condition . The same right that Simon Magus had to baptisme , have wicked Christians to the supper of the Lord. He professed himselfe to believe in Christ , upon Philips preaching , and he had a right to baptisme , and was baptized . It is true that baptisme is a sacrament of our ingraffing into Christ , and the Lords supper of our growing into Christ . But he that is a baptized Christian , and hath understanding to examine and judge himselfe , cannot be denyed his right to this sacrament , as wel as to that . Both are but the seales of one covenant : and whosoever receiveth the word of Christ , and professeth to accept it by faith , hath a right to the offers of the grace of Christ in both the sacraments : but not to the exhibiting of it , if the barre of impure unbeliefe lyes betwixt God and his soule . If secondly , you aske what benefit this wicked man can have by this sacrament ? I answer , hee hath the benefit of profession ; he doth receive Christs liverie of servants , and doth submit himselfe to his ordinance , and acknowledge his publick authority for the benefit of his church . And this is a glorious benefit , in it selfe , for a christian to weare Christs badge . But hee doth not receive the benefit of the body and bloud of Christ , with the benefits of them to life : For if he did thus eate his flesh , and drinke his bloud , hee had eternall life . He brings his soule to the sacrament without the conditions of the covenant written upon it , and so , though he accept of the offer of grace in the signe , yet hee carries not away the seale of it , no more then Iudas did from the passeover . His right , and benefit therefore will bring little comfort to him at the last , when his reckoning comes . Thirdly , this wicked man having a right to it , and a benefit too , ( such as it is to him ) , you aske , what separation Gods word will warrant from such communicants ? I answer , that I cannot finde in the word of God , that any separation was made in the sacrament by the godly , from the wicked not cast out for their unworthinesse . All the ●ewes that were circumcised ( and not cast out of their synagogues ) were to eate the passeover , or dye : the children that could eat , as a sacrifice of thanksgiving , and growne persons , as a sacrament & seale of Gods covenant So all christians ( that are not infants , mad-men , fooles , and excommunicates , who cannot examine , and judge themselves , or are after conviction , notorious offenders , and so cast out ) are not repellable ( if they come ) from the sacrament of the Lords supper . It is true , wee reade much in the writings of men of suspensions from this sacrament , even of those , that were neither children , fooles , mad-men , demoniacks , nor excommunicate persons by private , ministers : but I would see this ( for the right of it ) soundly proved by the undoubted rule of Christ . I have read also , that the blessed Fathers , in the wary discipline fit for their times , did not onely proclaime before the sacrament by their Deacons , depart ye that are novices , possessed , and under your penance for your crimes ; but would not also admit any , but the believers , and the baptized , so much as to see the sacrament . I have reade also of the cautelousnesse of those holy men , in admitting penitents to the Lords table . As they first admitted them into the limits of the church : next to lye down as humble suiters , to forget scandall , at the church porch : next to heare , but not stay prayers : next to heare , and stay prayers too : next to see the sacrament of the Lords supper , but not to receive it : and lastly , when they were sufficiently humbled , and edged to those high mysteries , they were admitted to the Lords table . These courses had high and excellent use in those times , when they were to lift up the honour of the sacrament in the sight of infidels , and hold close such christians as played fast and loose with Christ , as peace , or persecution came . And though they had not particular warrant from God , yet it being done decently , in order , and for edification of the body , had warrant sufficient from that generall rule . As I have reade these things of times past , and admire them , so I know , for the present , that it were a glorious and comfortable thing , if none but holy persons would draw neere unto this holy table , as wee deale withall our communicants by way of exhortation , and perswasion from the danger of Iudas . This certainely is fullest of joy , when Christ meetes with none but his faithfull servants , and not one unworthy to trouble the day . But if wicked Christians that are not lawfully convicted , and are not notorious in law ( though they bee notorious in fact ) whether these , ( when they will offer themselves to the sacrament as Christs servants professing his name , to their owne hurt ) be to bee separated from , by the word of Christ , this is the question . I know we may by way of admonition , before hand , tell them of the danger , and by way of perswasion presse them better to prepare themselves : but wee may not for their sakes discommon our selves from the table of the Lord. If it were the table of devils , away we must goe : but being the table of Christ , if others abuse themselves at it without our fault , wee must accept of Christs love , and leave it to Christ to punish him , or them , that doe dishonour them . You know many theeves in this christian common-wealth ; will you therefore separate your selves from the common-wealth , because these theeves are in common body with you ? No : you will leave them to the lawes of it to bee punished , and as it lies in your lot , doe your best to further it , but you will not forsake the common-wealth : So must you doe to the table of Jesus Christ . The blessed Apostle saith , we have received power to edifie , not to destroy . And if wee should fall out with Christs supper for wicked mens sake , and separate from Christs ordinance , because wicked men will not use it as they should , and breake off from many godly persons , because more wicked persons are not excommunicate , for any thing I know , we may more destroy then edifie . But ( say the Brownists ) holy things must not bee cast to dogs and swine , the childrens bread must not be given to whelps . This is true , if we can helpe it . But every wicked christian is not a swine or dog , nor any alien from the cōmon-wealth of Israel , as the Canaanitish woman , till her new faith made her a prosilite . Not one of ten thousand of thē ( whom they so highly judge ) wil dare to trample the sacrament under their feet , and all to rent the giver of it unto them . But put case , that some such miscreant might bee found , because these reputed dogges and swine abuse it to themselves , will you abuse it too in separating from it which exhibits so much good . But ( they say perhaps ) the ministers might keep them away from it , but do not . By what authority might they ? Put case they had the authority of a judge ( which is false heere ) may a judge hang a thiefe before his trial ? So , nor may hee discommon any from the Lords table till trial and sentence bee past . If any wicked christian should say I am not excommunicate , I will receive , shall they disturbe Christs sonnes for the unmannerlinesse of such a servant ? Noe : God is not the God of confusion , but order . Let them come at their own perill , to our misery , not to our sinne when wee have warned . But ( say the Brownists ) we shall partake in other mens sins , and so be polluted with such communions . To make this vanish , it is the third and last point propounded , that remaines in this section to bee considered . That their dreamed of pollution is from their owne braines , not from the ordinance of Christ . They account all then polluted , that are in spiritual communion in the worship of God with wicked and ungodly men . But the Prophets reproved many abuses , and never taught any pollution , neither did God appoint any sacrifice to expiate such pollution . There was a sacrifice for the whole congregation , to satisfy for their sinnes of ignorance , but not to take off the guilt of pollution by a mixture in the service of God. God tyed them all to the kingdome , priesthood , and temple , and hee doth not tye men necessarily to sinne . The godly people in the time of the law , were never reprooved for the worship of God , though wicked men were present . Indeed the priests were blamed highly , as violaters of the law , because they put no difference betwixt the holy , and the profane , nor have shewed difference betwixt the uncleane and cleane ; and that justly too : because God had made them teachers of the people , and they neglected the sabbaths : and because he had made them ordinary Iudges in these , & other cases , according to his word . But they never judged the godly polluted , for not separating from the wicked in Gods service . Againe , Christ and his Apostles , reproved many corruptions in churches , yet never taught or practised separation upon a conceit of pollution . Yea , Christ commendeth the church of Thyatyra , for living wel , where corruption was . Iezabel was suffered there : yet as many as have not this doctrine , nor knowne the depthes of satan , hold fast till I come ; and he that overcommeth , shal have power over the nations . Surely the best were not polluted by the worst , nor taught separation , but constancy in good , and reward at last . But not to bee too large , consider thoroughly but these three conclusions . First , God doth acquit the godly from the sinnes of the wicked , though they bee mixed in the ordinances of God. They that walke in my statutes and ordinances , shall bee my people , but they whose heart walketh after detestable things , I will recompence their way upon their owne head . The soule that sinnes , shall dye , not he that is guiltlesse . The wicked shall die in his iniquity , but warne him , and thou shalt deliver thy soule . I am confident ( saith Paul ) that you will bee no otherwise minded , but hee that troubleth you shall beare his judgmēt , whosoever he be . To the pure , all things are pure , but to the impure nothing is pure . All there were in spirituall communion together , yet God doth not cast the sinnes of the guilty upon the innocent , but doth acquit the one , and accuse the other , Yea but , ( say the Brownists ) God doth not acquit them that consent to the wickednesse of others . This is most true : we must neither sinne , nor have fellowship with sinne , nor consent to sinners : If we doe , we make other mens sinnes our owne . Now we may be said to consent to sinne , both in things lawfull , and in things unlawfull . In things unlawfull when wee have fellowship with wicked doers , and are accessary to their offences : and this may bee divers wayes , whereof some are proper to superiours , and some common to all . Superiours may bee guilty of other mens sinnes two wayes , by command , and by connivence . By the first , if they injoyne that which is evill , all the evill that is done upon their injunction is theirs , whether it bee publike or private . Nebuchadnezzar by law and edict , was guilty of all the Idolatry and cruelty which did insue upon it . Therefore woe to them that decree wicked decrees , and write grievous things . Saul was guilty of that murther done upon the Lords Priests : and David of the death of Vriah , because they commanded them . By the second , if they wincke at faults which are in their power to redresse . Iehoas● tooke not away the high places , and so was guilty of his peoples incense . Ahab wincked at B●nhadad , and let him go , when God had given him into his hands for death , and was guilty . Pilate wincked at the cruelty of the Jewes , and notwithstanding all his washing was guilty . David displeased not Adonjah from his youth , nor said ▪ Why dost thou thus ? and so was guilty of his riot and rebellion . All may be guilty of the sinnes of others , both before the offence be committed , and in , and after it . Before the offence , by provocation , counsell , approbation , and silence when called to speak . By provocation , either when men rage the heart , and fire the passions by thwarting and daring words or actions , as Iezabel , who provoked her husband Ahab : or when they allure and entise with sweet words , as that Harlot , Come let us fill our selves with love until the morning ; or with infecting and evill words . By Counsel , when men advise to any sinne : Thus Ionadab was guilty of the incest of Amnon ; Herodias of the bloud of Iohn Baptist ; Demetrius of the uprore against Paul ; and Balaam of Israels Baal-peor . By Approbation , when men doe not onely doe such things as are worthy of death , but favour them that doe them . This may be done directly , either by word of deed , as when Saul consented to the death of Stephen , and kept the garments of them that stoned him , or by interpretation , when a man is bound to withstand another mans sinne , and doth not either by word or deed . Moses hath given us a precept to speake in our places , and told us the danger of silence . To speake ill doth draw men into sinne , and to hold our peace ill doth leave a man in sinne . By example , when we live wickedly in the sight of others . For though , haply , the sinnes that wee practise bee not imitated of all : yet because wee have done what in us lies to set others a copy , which some will too greedily follow , therfore are we guilty ; we may be guilty againe of the sins of others , in and after the sin is committed , when men doe excuse , or defend the sinnes , or flatter men in them . Woe to them that speake good of evil , and evil of good . He that saith to the wicked , thou art righteous , him shall the people curse , as him that is guilty . Lastly , wee may bee said to consent to sinne , in things lawfull by scandall , when men use their liberty which God hath given them , in things indifferent ( left in their owne power to doe or not to doe ) to the wilfull offence , and snare of others that are weake . Of this Paul speakes doctrinally , it is good neither to eate flesh , nor drink-wine , nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth , and in his owne example , if meate offend my brother , I will eate no flesh while the world lasteth : so carefull was hee not to have communion in the sinnes of others . Now let us see whether we are polluted by the sinnes of the wicked by consent . Because they consent with us in doing of our good , doe wee therefore consent with them in doing their evill ? Their courses are daily reproved , both publickely , and privately : they are judged as such , whose examples wee would not follow for a world . They are neither commanded to doe as they doe , nor winked at when lawfully tried ; wee doe not provoke , counsel , or approve their cursed hypocrisies . They have no such examples from us : and have beene so long instructed , both by publicke instruments and preachings , and private conferences , that their scandals are taken , and not given , in those things ( free in themselves , but not to us by the command of lawfull authority ) whereat they will still take offence . How are we yet guilty of the sinnes of others to our pollution ? O say they , every congregation hath power in its owne hand to redresse things amisse , to repell wicked livers from our communions , whereas wee wait upon our king , when wee should doe it without him : and so are guilty of al the wickednesse of our assemblies . The vanity of this I have shewed in part before ; and shall doe it more in the next section : yet in the meane time , first wee confesse , that wee have power to redresse disorders : not in every particular church ; for then no man under the Gospel could perish in the gainesaying of Corah , as Saint Iude saith they may . Superiority was the cause of his mutiny , because he might not be equal to Aaron : but in every diocesse , where wee are governed not by the lawes of one man , but of Synods of Bishops and Presbyters : and if persons ( that should be as the house of Cloe , to informe , and that upon oath , of things amisse ) were not more to be blamed then offices , we might be as happy as any church under heaven . The impetuous carriage of some , who despise dominions , and speake evill of dignities , and that , without feare , and thinke it as easie to governe multitudes , as an handfull , makes them think otherwise : but if things bee weighed by the rule of the word , wisedome , and charity , it will bee found , I am sure , that wee have power indeed . But secondly , whereas they make us guilty of the wickednesse of our assemblies , by waiting upon the pleasure of our king , and not reforming without him , herein wee joy , yea , and will rejoyce againe : wee waite not upon kings and princes to bee Christians , and to serve God faithfully by the acts of true Faith , Hope , and Charity . If all the kings and Emperors in the world say against it , wee must , and ( by grace ) will doe it . Yea , if all the stormes in the world bee raised , we must strive unto bloud , but with teares , prayers , patience in suffering , not with armes , and violence . This we doe by private profession : but when it comes to a publicke reformation of Christian Churches already planted , it is our glory to waite upon Christian kings , whose subjects we are , that wee will not governe , but under him , nor build walls for the citizens of the saints , but under the defence of their swords ; especially considering that wee know , wee cannot without them mend our hands . When wee looke to the daies of Asa , Iehoshaphat , Hezekiah , and Iosiah , wee finde that no Israelite ever took upon him to reforme either without , before , or against them . When the Temple of Ierusalem lay waste , Zorababel and Ioshuah did nothing without Cyrus : nor did Nehemiah any thing without Artashashte . Indeed in their times , God knowing the time was come , when according to prophecie , he was to looke upon the desolations of Ierusalem , and restore it , prepared and whetted the hearts of the people of the Iewes , by Haggai and Zechariah , but they built nothing but by the leave of their Kings , and when countermands came , they laid downe their tooles , and the worke of the house of God ceased ; so good subjects they would bee notwithstanding the height of their Religion . But ( say they ) they should have done otherwise : For Haggai reproves them for letting the house of God lye waste , and God sends a famine upon them . This is true , they were too blame when they minded their owne houses more , and took not their seasons allowed them for this great worke . But that either the Prophet threatned , or God punished them , for not building when they were under the Interdict , that let them prove , and they shall have more said . How unhappy are they we now see , while they make our assemblies polluted for not doing that ( if we wanted it , as we doe not ) which is unlawfull for us to doe without lawfull authority ? The Apostles indeed planted Churches without waiting upon Heathen Kings ; but they had Apostolicall authoritie , & were to do according to Christs commission to them , which was out of date in their death : but we cannot reforme without or against Christian Kings ( if we could yet make a better reformation ) except they can shew a new Commission under Christs owne hand . If therefor wee have faults we cannot help ( and provided we consent not ) we are not polluted . The second conclusion is this , That God declares it to be a sinne for the godly to leave the worship of God for the wickednesse of those that come unto it . We know that the sinne of the sonnes of Ely was so great , that men abhorred the offerings of the Lord : but in so doing it is said , that the Lords people did transgresse , even unto a cry . Surely , this truth will not easily bee outfaced : yet some of them to avoid it say , that no marvell if morall wickednesse did not pollute the Iewish worship , because God required onely ceremoniall cleannesse then . But how false this is , appeares by Gods Covenant with Abraham , where God required sincerity : by the morall law which was Gods covenant : by Gods requiring , then , truth in the inward part : by his injoyning sacrifices for morall transgressions as well as ceremoniall : by his signifying of pollution by morall uncleannesses : and by threatning of morall sinnes , and abhorring all ceremoniall service ; when men sinned morally against God. Surely , their morall pollutions went beyond their typicall , and wrought their utter ruine at last , notwithstanding The Temple of the Lord , the Temple of the Lord : and yet Christ himselfe would not separate from such worshippers as were polluted , so long as the worship was Gods. It was fit for a Pharise ; it was not fit for Christ , who knew that to the pure all things are pure . The last conclusion is this , That the Scripture admits godly Christians to the holy things of God , though open wicked men be there . Divers good people goe to the Altar with their gifts : Some are in charity , and some wickedly uncharitable , their brethren have something against them . Now , Christ doth not bid them all goe away , because of that malicious man , but bids him that is malicious ( if he would have Gods blessing ) goe and be reconciled and come againe . Againe , when Paul saw fearefull wickednesse in Corinthian Communions , hee doth not bid them all abstaine for feare of pollution , but ( according as hee had received of the Lord ) he bids them examine themselves , and so let them eate of this bread , and drinke of this Cup , whatsoever others be . Certainely , the Apostle was not acquainted with the doctrine of the Brownists , which teacheth , that because another doth sinne , I may not doe my duty to God : because a wicked man will come to the Sacrament , I may not : because another man offendeth God , in serving him , I may not serve him then for feare of pollution . No king shall have subjects , nor master have servant , nor shall God have worshippers upon these termes . But ( say they ) the worship of God is polluted by such uncleane worshippers . This is true , but to whom ? to them that serve him aright , or to them that serve him amisse ? The Apostle saith , that the unworthy communicant eateth and drinketh judgement to himselfe , not to them that are better . It is true , that hee that touched a dead body , and purified not himselfe , defiled the tabernacle , but it was unto himselfe , who therefore was to bee cut off , and not others that were innocent . It is true too , that the judgement of the priests was right , that if an uncleane person touch bread , pottage , wine , oyle or meate , it shall be uncleane , to himselfe that is uncleane , but not to him that toucheth it that is cleane , and so a prophane christian that comes to the Lords supper , pollutes not what the minister performes , and good people receive , but what himselfe toucheth . It is true also , that a seditious multitude charged Paul falsely , that he polluted the holy place by bringing Greekes into the Temple . For , though God forbade the Israelites to admit the Moabites , and Ammonites , for a long time into the common-wealth of Israel , what is this to prose●ites , by profession , comming into the temple ? All this is true I say : yet this typical pollution ( which did not foreshadow the pollution of visible assemblies , but the holinesse and impurity and sincere Christians , and hypo , crites ) doth not prove the pollution of all worship to the good , for the naughtinesse of the bad , Christ is not so hard a master ; neither doth hee blame the worthy guests for being polluted by the unworthy , or suffering him to come in , but saith to him onely , friend , how camest thou in hither , not having on a wedding garment ? SECT . 12. Brownists last exception against our Church , about the governement of it , for Power . FRom the Brownists meaning , by a true Church , and their entrance into , head and members of a true church , we are at last come to the governement of a true church : and because they finde ours not to bee governed according to their fansies , therefore they except against it , as Antichristian , and therefore , not a true Church . It is true that governement is an excellent blessing , it is as the bridle to the horse , the rudder to the ship , yea , the lawes and judgement seate of a kingdome . A right to this cannot be separated from a true church . For if it bee a church , it hath right to Christs lawes , judgements , and executions to governe it as his kingdome upon earth . Yea , the use of this right cannot bee taken away , without the great sinne of them that doe it , and injury to the church from whom it is taken ; yea , the Church that is robbed of it , ought not to rest in this wrong , when they are so oppressed : but ought of dutie to pray to God for it , and humbly to supplicate unto men in authority , who are able , as Christs prime officers for the welfare of the Church , to helpe them at such a lift . But no Church ought to call for such a governement as Christ never commanded ; yea , no church ought when they have a governement sutable to the Apostles , and primitive times of the Church , and not contrary to any law of Christ , but sutable to his generall rules in the scriptures , for some pretended , or true defects in governement , to make a schism and separation from publick communion . Yes ( say the Brownists ) where government is so base , that foule corruptions rule , from such a Church wee must separate . But who laid this ( must ) upon you ? I am sure not Christ , who taught us otherwise in his blessed life . There were fearefull corruptions in the Church of the Jewes , both in the priests , in the people , and in the worship of God. In the priests , there was ignorance ; for they were blinde guides . There was ungodlines , for they said , and did not There was corrupt entrance into their calling ; for Caiphas was high-priest for that yeare : hee was Annuary ( be like ) though by Gods law the high-priest should continue during life . In the people there was obstinate wickednesse . They would have broke Christs necke downe a steepe hill . They rejected him , and chose Barabbas . They were in worse state then Tyrus , Sidon , and Sodome . They drew , and wisht the guilt of Christs bloud to bee upon them and their children . In the worshippe of God they used many superstitions precisely ; the temple was made a denne of theeves : the Censures were abused for the casting out of innocents : the doctrine of God was corrupted by glosses : and the blessed sacraments were abused : for they observed not the Passeover on the time appointed , and therefore Christs was before theirs . Notwithstanding all these corruptions , by slack governement , yet did Christ hold publicke cōmunion with them . Hee was circumcised the eight day : he was presented to the Lord as well as others : he heard , & was baptized : he eat the Passeover with them , and allowed his disciples to heare the very Pharisees . Can they therfore justly say , that they must separate from a Church corrupted for want of I governement ? Yes ( say they ) that they must : when governement is naught , practise is answerable , and better of either cannot be had . I wonder what they would have done , if they had lived in the times of the Judges , when every man did what hee listed ? or in our blessed Saviours time , when so many schismaticks , and sectaries had rule and governement ? or in the Apostles time , when Diotrephes used such tyrannical pride , and usurped such authority , that hee would not receive the very Apostles ▪ would they have separated ? I am sure , that neither Israel , nor Christ , nor his Apostles did so ? Iohn did onely write to the Church about it : And are these wiser then they ? No ( say they ) wee doe it not out of an opinion of our owne wisedome , but out of conscience , and for the glory of God , and for Sions sake . But take they heed : every one that pretends to make the word of Christ his rule , hath not these ends before him as he ought . Gentilis , that impious blasphemer of the Trinity , when he was called to answer , said , that hee was drawne to maintaine his cause from touch of conscience : and when hee was to dye , that hee did suffer for the glory of the most high God. And Paul when he was yet a Pharisee , lived in all good conscience , when naturall wisedome was his interpreter of Gods word . Even so , may it be with them . O no : they are sure of their hand : they are taught of God , and they must separate from such a wicked governmēt as ours is for conscience sake . Why , what is the matter ? let us ( in the feare of God ) heare the worst , that wee may mend , or bee obstinate . I never heard but three things pleaded against our governement by them . 1 The power of true government . 2 The persons of our governours . 3 And their exercise of our government . We wil heare them in all , to the last word , and our good God give us understanding in all things for peace and salvation . The power of true Church government ( say the Brownists ) is in the whole Church and in every particular member in body , and not onely in the prime members onely . In this they doe not onely fight against us , but against al the Presbyteries in the world : and so they pull more adversaries upon them , then they will be able to withstand : In this they beate downe at one blow that which hath exercised the wits of thousands , without satisfaction to millions of consciences . Yea in this they joyne hands with Corah , Dathan , and Abiram , who loved not the governement of the best , because all the congregation is holy , every one of them . But against whomsoever they fight , and with whomsoever they joyne , surely ( say they ) true Church government is in the whole congregation . It is true , that if wee consider the Church as a compleat body under Christ the head , then the power of Church government is in the whole Church : As the animal body is said to see , to goe , to worke , to speake originally , though subjectively and formally , it is the eye sees , the foot goes , the hand works , and the tongue speaks . But that the whole body of Christ ( the Church catholike , or particular for her part ) should have this power , so as to have power to exercise it formally , cannot bee made good from the word of Christ . Before the Law , Church government lay upon Adam , Noah , Abraham , and the rest of the Patriarchs . Vnder the Law , it lay upon Moses and Aaron ( though to Moses was added by Iethroes advise seventy Elders , not by Gods immediate direction , though after they were approved by him . ) Vnder the Gospel the gifts of power and government was bestowed upon some , not upon all : and the people never attempted any thing without the Apostles leave , assistance , and direction . The Apostles ordained Elders , and not the people without them . The Apostles called for the Elders and conferred with them without the people . The Elders did consult with Iames and Paul , without asking the votes of the people , and did a matter of weight for the peace of the Church from their owne judgements : Yea and when the whole Church was with the Apostles and Elders in counsell these are preferred before them as their superiours , who had their consent of love and charity , but not of authority . Therefore the people were not reproved for the disorders of the Church and Common-wealth , but the Princes and the Priests : according to which generall course we must understand those few particulars wherein blame seemes to bee layed upon the body of the people also . For the people are still commanded subjection and submission to governours ecclesiasticall and temporall : and are still called by the names of sheepe , brethren , saints , houshold , spouse , children , and the like ; whereas their governours are called Bishops , Overseers , Elders , Presbyters , Angels , Fathers , as termes of superiority . It is true , they are also called a royall Priesthood , and Kings : but not in regard of externall power of government in the Church , but of internall power of saving grace to rule over their own corruptions , that sin may not raigne in their mortall bodies ; which if they would exercise as they ought these quarrels might soone cease . Noe ( say the Brownists ) these quarrels must not cease , so long as we find in Scriptures , the peoples power of government in the Church , maintained . For they instance in two high parts of government , excommunication and absolution , and they find the peoples power in both . For Christ saith , If thy brother trespasse against thee , and he will not heare thee , or more with thee , Goe tell the church , that is say they , the whole congregation , and as hee doth heare or neglect that , let him be to thee either bound or loosed by excommunication or absolution . Hence they argue thus : Church is taken for every particular congregation where Christians live : before this in body , the delinquent that is obstinate must bee convented , bee it lesse or greater : and it hath a power in governement , even in these things of highest nature : therefore the power of government is in the people , as well , as deeply , as in others . Heere is their impregnable hold ( as they thinke ) and therefore they come upon us thus roundly : Christ hath charged his Apostles , and their true successours : that they should teach all nations to observe all things whatsoever hee hath commanded them : but you that are the ministers of the Church of England , doe not teach us to observe all things : for Christ hath commanded a forme of governement , wherein all members should have publicke cognizance of offences for the advancement of the kingdome of Christ , and you suffer him to be dishonoured , and us to bee robbed of our rights ; and therfore ye are not the ministers of Christ , neither is your Church a true Church of Christ . Thus ( so farre as I can gather from them , and conceive ) I have given them the full advantage of their plea. But if all this were true , it doth not follow that wee are not the true ministers of Christ , nor that our Church is not his true Church . Not the first , because that exposition of Christs words is their owne , and not Christs . If Christ had said unto us , that hee would have such a governement erected in every parish , then wee should dishonour our master , and rob Gods people , not to preach it . Others have with prayer , care , and conscience looked upon those words of Christ , as well as they : and yet some finde in that Church mentioned by Christ , onely the Iewish Sanhedrim : some the Pope and his conclave : some the presbytery of mixt elders : some the consistory of preaching elders : and some Bishops and superintendents , who have the highest oversight to punish Church scandals under the Magistrates , under whom they live . But these men ( as if they would exclude other mens discourses , and binde up their consciences to their interpretations ) will have their meaning to be the true sence , and no other . Neither doth it follow , that our Church is not the true Church of Christ . What though-something that Christ hath commanded to be observed be not taught , nor observed , doth it therefore follow that such a Church is not his ? What Christian is there that hath all Christs observations taught in every congregation where hee comes , or , if hee have them all , doth observe and doe them as he ought ? And yet , I hope , he may be a true Christian , and saved in the day of Christ . As in a Christian , wee must observe what gives him saving fellowship with Christ , to wit , Repentance from dead workes , and Faith unfained : and how he walketh worthy of this fellowship in the way of life , to wit , by deniall of himselfe , taking up of the crosse , and following Christ , so farre , that no wilfull nor deliberate sinne raigne in him : and then though he do not observe every outward forme and rule , yet ( I hope ) Christ may be his Christ , and he Christs member to life . So in a church must we observe what gives it true ecclesiasticall fellowship with Christ , to wit , the Apostles doctrine , and fellowship , breaking of bread , and praier : and then , if it professe to know these , and to continue in them , so far as it is come , though it observe not every thing that other men thinke it should , yet I hope it is a true church of Christ . But ( say they ) we have not the Apostles doctrine and fellowship for want of this popular governement . Let them prove once , that this is any part of the Apostles doctrine and fellowship . Indeed they tell us ( as before ) that Christ said , goe tell the Church , and so forth : but how this Last serves their feet , comes next to bee discussed . If this church were every congregation , and if one man may bind , and loose , it is certaine the whole congregation may doe so also , and so have the greatest power of church governement in their owne hand : but whether the text will conclude for such power is the thing in question . Learned men of most ages have much looked upon that text , and have applied it either by way of allusion , or properly to church discipline , some way or other . Some churches in this last age have looked upon it fully , and ( as they thinke ) have squared an exact discipline according to it ; though I cannot finde that they cut their course fully according to their owne sence . Some particular persons finding this to bee the strongest hold for that new discipline , have sought to overthrow it so , as utterly to roote out excommunication from the church ; and others ( finding the good use of that censure for the well being of the church ) have beene as eagar to maintaine this hold . But discipline , and that censure , hath hold strong enough from other texts , though that of Christ bee set in its proper sence . For when wee looke to that promise of Christ to his disciples in the name of Peter , and how he made it good to his Apostles , & lay together the rules & practises of the apostles , especially in the epistles to the Corinthians , and to Timothy ( which last are spent in rules , for the well ordering of the governing , and the governed ) we shall find ground sufficient for church governement , either in patterne , or precept , generall or speciall , though we suffer this text to appear in its own colors . Let me tell them then , that as Paul saith : Forbeare one another , and forgive one another , if any man have a quarrel , or complaint against any : so Christ in that chapter gives a remedy against private contentions . This is plaine to everie eye , that is not wilfully blinded , that Christ in that chapter tells of the danger of scandals ; and thereupon he gives a double direction : first to live so , as not to give scandal to others , and secondly , to carry themselves aright to others that give scandal to them ; and that all this is to bee referred to private offences , the unbroken course of the chapter shewes , as Saint Basil hath observed many hundred yeares agoe . That which moved Christ to this discourse , was the present state of the Iewish disciples under the Romane Empire . The Romanes had no governement over them , and the authority of their edlers was much diminished . For many of the Iewes became servants to the Romanes , as their Publicanes , to gather in their tribute : such were Zacheus , yea , and Matthew . These were freed from the authority of the Iewes ; as all other Iewes were that were freemen of Rome , which made Paul when hee saw oppression before him , to appeale to Caesar , and to plead that he was free borne . This was a great vexation to the Iew in recovering of right , and defending himselfe from wrong . Therefore Christ to moderate the Iewes passions arising one against another , directs them what course to take ; you must not deale ( saith hee ) one with another presently , as with Publicanes , & Heathens , who are out of Iewish power , and cannot bee impleaded any where , but before a Romane barre : but to cut off al differences betwixt you and your brethren , yee must proceed in a gentle way . Why ? what must they doe ? If thy brother ( a Iew ) shall trespasse against thee ( a Iew ) , right thy selfe by degrees . First , deale with him fraternally , according to the rule of charity , tel him his fault betweene thee and him alone . If that will doe no good to gaine him , then secondly , deale with him legally , take with the one or two more , that may heare the difference , convince him of errour , and perswade him to peace : for this is Moses law , that in the mouth of two or three witnesses , every word bee established . If that will not yet bring him home , then thirdly , deale with him Iewishly , tell it unto the Church , complaine to the Sanhedrim , tell the seventy elders who sit yet , by Gods approbation , to heare harder causes , and to decide greater doubts against peace , and charity . If yet hee bee so gracel●sse as to neglect thee , and them too , then lastly , deale with him heathenishly by Romane soveraignety to which now you are subject , but thinke him to bee as an Heathen and Publican , & deale with him accordingly : The law is good if it bee used lawfully ; let Caesars justice end the difference betwixt you . It is true , the Apostle saith , that Brother must not dare to goe to law with brother , and that before unbelievers : yet I hope even then , when the Iewes , Pauls brethren wronged him , and the saints could not right him , hee appealed unto Caesar . Therefore ye must put a difference betwixt the christian Corinthians , after the death of Christ , and the christian Iewes before the death of Christ . These had no Church government setled , but that of the Iewes , which by Romane authority was neglected and slighted : but the Corinthians had . For Christ never medled to settle any other Church government during life , but the Iewish , which was to bee of force til after his death : but then he sent his Spirit to direct his Apostles in all necessaries . The Iewes were Christians but in working : for the best of them ( even the Apostles ) were dreggish in faith and life : In faith about the death and resurrection of Christ , and about a temporall Kingdome doted upon . In life , when they too full of revenge in drawing the sword as Peter , or for calling down fire frō heaven upon the Samaritans . But the Corinthians were more perfectly instructed in the mysteries of faith and charity , and therefore their brawles would bee more scandalous , having such wise Saints among them who shall judge the world . Lastly , the Apostle findes not fault with the Corinthians for going to law absolutely one with another before infidels ; for even Heathen Kings , and all that are in authority are to be prayed for , that Christians may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godlinesse and honesty : And this they cannot doe except their Thrones minister justice in mine and thine . It is lawfull therefore when raking and politicke Christians doe bite and devoure one another , doe serve their owne bellies , and by good words and faire speaches doe deceive the hearts of the simple , and defraud one another in bargaining , to appeale to the minister of justice . For all power is of God , and the very Heathen Magistrate doth not beare the sword in vaine . But he findes fault with them , that they set too great a price upon the things of this life ; that they were too contentious about them ; that they went to law before Heathens to the scandall of Christianity ; and that they appealed to forraigne judgement , when they might have remedy by wise Saints neerer hand , which the Jewes could not have , when their Elders by Romane liberty were contemned . Now , if they doubt whether this sense may bee admitted , I shall ( by Gods helpe ) cleare it from the Text , and maintaine it from exceptions that may arise thence . First , therefore consider that Peter understood this discourse of private offences onely : therefore when Christ hath done , hee saith , Lord , how oft shall my brother sin against me ? Against me , saith Peter , intimating a private trespasse . Secondly , consider Christs answer to Peter in a Parable , where he concludes thus , So shall my heavenly Father doe to you , if yee from your hearts forgive not every one his brother his trespasses : where hee still speakes of private trespasses . Thirdly , consider the propriety of speech in the words of Christ . If thy brother , saith Christ , that is , a Jew : for no Jew nor Disciple then called any other man brother but a Iew. If thy brother sin against thee , therefore the offence is still private and personall . Lastly , consider that Christ sends the offender from the Church neglected to the plaintiffes censure and punishment to be sought . He doth not say , let him be to the Church as an heathen and Publican , that is , excommunicate : ( for Heathens were not excommunicated ; for what have we to doe to judge those that are without ? no nor Publicans neither ; for we reade onely that Christ wrought Zacheus to restore where he wronged , but we read not that he left his office . And when the Publicans came to Iohn Baptist , hee did not bid them leave their places , but exact no more than that which is appointed you : ) but saith Christ , let him bee to thee : because hee hath despised the Church , which is the highest tribunall under Caesar , hee is in thy hand to take Caesars course with him . But ( say they then ) how will you maintaine this sense from just exceptiōs . We had need indeed : for we are persecuted from this Text by two sorts of persons . The Papists say that here Christ refers us to the Christian Church ( the Pope out of his chaire ) to end all controversies . But what have Christians to doe here , if it was the comfort or a Iew against a Iew in private offences ? The Brownists say , that here is a Rule for every private Congregation like themselves to claime a sufficisufficient power by , to advance Christs kingdome . And it can be no other ( say they ) for the word ( church ) cannot bee taken for the Iewish Sanhedrim ; it is a christian word proper to congregations of saints . Nay , that word in Gods language is used for any assembly . The assembly was confused ; it shall hee determined in a lawfull assembly ; yee cannot give an account of this concourse , therefore hee dissolued the assembly , saith the holy Ghost of a wicked uproare ; and in all three places the word church is used . Why then may not the grave assembly of the seventy elders be called a church ? Yea but ( they say ) heere is mention made of binding and loosing , which are proper to church censures . It is true , that for their affinity in sound , they have beene often applyed so , at least by way of allusion . But we read of a threefold binding in the new testament ▪ Divine , Ministeriall , and Fraternal , Divine ▪ when God at last doth justly give over to everlasting obduration , and restraint , those that are cast into hell : so the devils a●e reserved in everlasting chaines : and God saith of final contemners of grace , binde him hand and foot , cast him into utter darkenesse . Ministerial , when the preachers of the Gospell binde over obstinate sinners to wrath , either morally , by way of denunciation only , or Ecclesiastically , by way of processe . This Christ promised to the disciples in the name of Peter , and performed to all his disciples : yea and this is most fearefull , when the bond is laid right , because they doe it by commission from God as Gods Ambassadours ; yet is it soluble to true penitents . Fraternall and brotherly binding ; when one man bindes another for private offences obstinately stood in : and of that doth Christ speake in this place . If ye have won him by a loving conviction , ye loose him of his guilt to you : If hee will live in his uncharitablenesse , ye binde him by your seeking peace : for hee that will not be reconciled from the heart , God will not be reconciled unto him , hee shall into the prison till he hath paid the utmost farthing . But ( it may be said ) how shall I be assured that upon my brothers submission , and mine and my witnesses acceptance , that his bond of guilt shall be loosed by God ? From Christs promise , that if two shall agree on earth , as touching any thing that they shall aske , it shall b● done for them ( to their brethren ) of my Father which is in Heaven . Thus Saint Basil of old : If two shall aske by consent it shall be done : what this meaneth the processe of the place shewes ( saith he : ) for immediately before Christ speaketh of him that reproveth his brother , and him that is reproved ; and If he that be reproved be grieved for his fault , and be joyned with the reprover in the same minde , the pardon which is asked shall be granted from our most gracious God. This I alledge ( as I could in this cause many other ) not because they like it : but because they may know that this sense is not a new one of my owne . I know that they runne a new and uncharitable way , for when they reade that Christ promiseth not doing for them that aske , except they agree on earth : they peremptorily conclude , that they ought not to pray with them that doe not consent with them in their opinions . Therefore would they neither pray with me , nor suffer me to pray with them to our good God to lead us us into the way of truth : nor will they pray with their owne wives and children , though never so pious , if they doe not meet in the same center of conceits . Yea but ( say they ) all the Text before must be understood of publike Church scandals because of Christs promise , Where two or three be gathered together in my name , there am I in the midst of them : which is ever applyed to publike meetings . It is true : it is so applyed , and so may and must . For it holds strongly , that i● Christ be present with private persons , who agree in building up one another in charity much more is he present in publike conventions where faith climbes , hope rootes , charity flames , and zeale burnes up corruption , when they are well used . But yet this proves not , but that here Christ may treate of private scandals , as the whole context shewes , and may incourage brotherly prayers one for another in peace , because Christ is present with them . But all this is but a flash to them yet : for this text must needes bee a rule of their perfect discipline in the body of their members : because the Apostle blames the whole church of Corinth , for not casting out of the incestuous person . That this is no perfect rule of discipline , may appeare to any man that will consider , that heere is no direction to proceed against sins against God , or others , but onely against thee , & thee . Heere is no excommunication ordained : for it is not said , put him out from among you , but let him bee to thee for seeking further remedy . Lastly , heere is no determining power given to the church ; for the party offended is principall to admonish , tell , fine . The church is not to excommunicate , but to turne the offender over to the offended party , let him be to thee , not to us : yea the church is not to call him by summons , but to expect the plaintiffes comming : and moreover , if heere were a perfect rule , it might fall out that two or three men , yea women , pretending to bee gathered in Christs name , might cast out whole congregations for not consenting unto them . And for that place to the Corinths , where Saint Paul is charged to countenance this their new parish discipline ; because hee blamed the Corinthians that the incestuous person was not cast out : I answer , hee might have had just cause to blame them , if hee had committed any such thing to their trust , by devolving his authority to them : but that hee did not yet put over his authority to them in body , appeares divers waies . First , though the power of governement , in respect of use , belong to the whole church for benefit , that where the fact is notorious , the law might be notorious too , so as the whole church may bee witnesse of the doome , when they are gathered together : yet in regard of the possession for managing of it , it belongs onely to the Pastors , and chiefe Bishops . For when Christ made that promise of binding and loosing to his disciples , hee did not make it to them as Apostles properly : for it is no such personall priviledge as not to descend : It is needefull for the church in all ages , therefore not tyed to any . Neither did he make it unto them as the body of christians : for when hee made good his promise , hee tells us that hee sent and inspired them , and after both these , gave this commission of binding and loosing : but hee sent not all , nor inspired all , as he signified by breathing upon the Apostles . But he did it to them , as pastors , and chiefe Bishops , and so to men of office for the use and comfort of the church for ever , And terrour of ungodly men . Secondly , the persons to whom this authority of perpetuall governement of the church ( in ecclesiasticall way ) was committed , were the chief Pastours ( as Bishops were anciently called ) therefore if Paul had fixed the blame in that particular upon any , it would have been upon the Angel , and chiefe overseer of that church . For Paul and Christ are not of a severall spirit and judgement in church-discipline . Thirdly , if therefore Paul blame any for this , it is under the whole church , those that by office were to redresse these outrages , and to see to the holinesse , charity , and comelinesse of that church . But lastly , if wee looke into the words more narrowly , wee shall finde the true fault that hee blamed the church of Corinth for . They had a common fame of such a wickednesse committed amongst them , that the Gentiles by the light of nature did abhorre . Paul ( having as yet supreame power ecclesiasticall under Christ in his owne hand , and ( for ought we know ) not having setled a Bishop in highest church governement , as in Ephesus , Creta , Asia , ) did expect from them woefull complaints of this disorder , that hee might have directed thē accordingly , for the taking of it away from among them , with the author of it . But they were so farre from this , that they were puffed up with their owne gifts , and lamented not that wickednesse that raigned among them , that by d●e course it might bee removed . This therefore is that , which the Apostle blameth in the Corinthians . Therefore that hee may shew them , that they are not so much to admire themselves , as to take off their eyes from the great faults committed against them , and that they are to lament , and doe their best , that such wicked persons might be taken away from among them , and not thrust out in a crowd : the Apostle doth three things by authority i● the face of the Church , who of conscience ought to consent and beare witnesse to the doome . First , the act of an Apostle , Deliver such an one unto Satan ( it may be ) that he might have power over his body to torment him , as appeares in the Stories of Ananias , Sapphira , Elimas , Alexander . Secondly , the act of a Bishop , put away from amongst you that wicked person , that being suspended from the preservatives of his soule in the visible communion of Saints , he might have a way to bring him to godly sorrow . And thirdly , the act of every godly Pastour , to mourne that if any be called a brother , and bee a fornicator , or covetous , or an Idolater , or a rayler , or a drunkard , or an extortioner , with such an one eate not : that is , be so farre from countenancing of him in his sinne , that yee take him not into unnecessary familiarity . Now , how from hence can be picked a popular government of the Church , God knoweth , I cannot yet reach . But yet ( say the Brownists ) you may reach thus much to confound you , that if Paul would not have you eate with such wicked brothers , much lesse would he have you to receive the Sacrament with them : for he hath more care of his owne supper than of ours . This is certaine that God hath a greater care of his own Supper than of ours : and therefore though he be willing that all should come both good and bad , yet if they come , and stay bad , and hee come to try them , they shall bee bound hand and foot and cast into hell . It is certaine also that wee must have a great care of the Supper of the Lord as we can in our places ; private persons , by private communion of Saints ; Presbyters , by publike preaching by Word and Doctrine , and by private exhortations as they can ; and Church-Officers by presentments , and punishments fit . But it doth not therefore follow , because wee may not eate with them ( that is , converse familiarly and unnecessarily with them ) that therefor we may not eate the Lords Supper with the Saints , because wicked persons are there . Their wickednesse we countenance , when we keepe company with them : our goodnes they countenance , when they come into publike communion with us : we have no need of their eating with us , they shew their need of their eating with us in the Sacrament , when we have no power to keepe them backe . Yet ( say they still ) wee have power to keepe them backe : for Paul speaking of the incestuous person saith , sufficient to such a man is this punishment which was inflicted of many ; therefore the whole Church had power and used it against him . It is true , it was inflicted by many assessors and consēters to his doom , but not as prime executors of that doome . The Apostle saith , that the Saints shall judge the world , by way of life , witnesse , consent , and approbation ▪ yet is it not Christ that is the Judge of wicked and good ? So though this punishment was inflicted upon him by many , by way of consent , and approbation yet was it primely inflicted by Paul , and his authority in those that declared it . Thus have I satisfied my selfe ( if not others ) in this point concerning the power of governement , which lies not in all the congregation for execution and prime officiating , but in the chiefe governours who beare the place of Paul and the other Apostles . SECT . 13. Brownists exceptions against the persons governing in our Church , and against the exercise of their governement . PVt case that the power of governement were not in every particular congregation , yet our governours are not to bee allowed , yea to be banished the church , say they . They are farre from the sweete moderate spirit of Melancthon , one of the blessed reformers , who , so the Pope of Rome himselfe would have admitted of the Gospel of Christ in truth , would have permitted his superiority over Bishops , by humane right , for the peace and common tranquility of christians under him . But nothing will serve these people but the damnation of the Pope , and the shame and confusion of all Bishops , one , and the other . And there are three things principally in them , at which they except , and against which they stumble : 1 Their name . 2 Their degree . 3 Their jurisdiction . Why ( say they ) should they appropriate to themselvs this name of Bishops , which belongs to all other Pastours as well as to them ? There is good cause ; for there are two sorts of Bishops : first ordinary Bishops , such as were all the Elders of Ephesus . These must not bee blinde watch-men : for if they see not , they cannot oversee . They must not sleepe and bee secure : they must have a great care to keepe safe those that are committed to them , that the enemy come not and sowe tares . Secondly , there are extraordinary Bishops , such as have precedence , & jurisdiction , not onely over the flock , but over the elders and presbyters , which are called Angels ; such were Timothy , and Titus the first ordained Bishops of the churches of Ephesus and Creta , as appeares in the postscript of those epistles . Which though haply they are no part of the canonicall scriptures , yet are they authenticall records of matters of fact to help our understandings in the needfull stories of th●se times , without which we may think amisse . From these , they justly assume those names which have beene given to men of their order , ever since the Apostles dayes . But put case they could not make such aclaime , if there be the office , shall we quarrell about the names ? The first man that ever found fault with the name , would fame have been a Bishop himselfe ; but when he found himselfe crossed , he comforted himself with this , that yet , as he was a Presbyter , he was equall with them . But let no good Christians be unquiet for names , if there may bee an agreement in things named . The Apostles were called Deacons in Gods language , yea , and Christ himselfe , who came to that end . Christ is called the Arch-bishop , and the Apostle of our soules . The Apostles are called Elders , and Elders were called Apostles , and Bishops are called Angels . What matters it then for names , if wee can agree in other things ? But ( say they ) wee doe not agree in other things : for these Bishops are in a degree above Presbyters , and so there is an unequall ministery in the Church of Christ which should not bee . Now surely they have had this from the Apostles dayes : yea the scripture mentioneth a superiority in the ministery of the Church ▪ first Apostles , secondarily prophets , thirdly teachers . And this is a sure rule , that such a ministery as is most like the ministerie ordained by Christ ( it not being denyed unto us expressely , or by consequent , and another commanded ) may be lawfully maintained by us as Christs ministery . But such is an unequall ministery in degree , as Prophets , Apostles , Evangelists , Pastours , and Doctours , one above another in larger authority , & gifts : for those that were called immediately did excell those that were called by men . And among those that were called by men , where might bee a rising to an higher degree according as they profited in faith and godlinesse . Therefore Paul saith , that they that use the office of a Deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree . Therefore may wee lawfully maintaine a superiority in the ministery of Christ now . But ( it may be ) they would not stand so much upon this , because ( for ought I can finde ) there is some inequality betwixt their pretended Pastors and Doctors ) ; but that there is a Iurisdiction in our Bishops , not onely over the flock , but over the compresbyters their brethren . It is true , there is so , and that justly ; without which , wee should have as many religions as parishes : and for that I say this . Such jurisdiction as is patterned or prescribed in the epistles to Timothy , and Titus , is worthily exercised in our church of Christ . If it bee said , that that jurisdiction was personal in them ; this takes away the comfort of doctrine in all the othe● epistles : for it may be as well said , that the rules of faith and doctrine in them are personall , and belong to that age . But as this cannot be said , so nor that : for those rules tended to the government of the house of God , and were to be kept to the appearing of our Lord Iesus Christ . Now that , that jurisdiction patterned or prescribed in those epistles was episcopal , appeareth thus . Set aside matters matrimonial , and testamentary , which are the wise donation of princes for the conscionable ordering of such affaires , and the jurisdiction of Bishops doth stand in two things principally , First in ordination , for the ordaining of ministers . Titus was left in Crete to ordeine elders : and the Apostle would have Timothy lay hands rashly on none , that is , ordaine . But ( say they ) these ordeined not as Bishops , but as Evangelists . But this they must prove that they were Evangelists strictly so called . Evangelists were immediately called , so wa● not Timothy : for according to his good report , and the prophesies , that went of him for his great use of the church , hee was ordained by the laying on of the hands of the Presbytery . Yea , but ( say they ) that Paul bids him doe the worke of an Evangelist . True : but may they not as well prove Timothy to be an Apostle , because hee did the worke of the Lord as Paul did ? know therefore that Evangelist may be taken three wayes : for a penner of the Gospel by divine instinct ; so the Apostles were Evangelists . For a preacher of the Gospel by divine instinct ; so they are accounted so properly . And for a preacher of the Gospell by ordinary diligence and assistance : and thus Timothy an Evangelist may be a Bishop to ordaine , though not properly as a preacher , yet as made a great overseer for that use . But ( say the Brownists ) Bishops claime ordination to themselves alone : so did not Timothy and Titus who did it with the eldership . Whether these did it alwaies with the assistant presbyters is not yet proved , there being no set law knowne to us then , nor I doubt ever will. Indeed , for our Bishops , they ordaine Deacons alone , and so they may according to ancient custome , and neither I , nor they , know any thing against it . But for the ordination of Presbyters , as it was in the primitive Church , so our Lawes require that the Bishop should have his assistants , the power of ordaining being in him , and the liberty of approbation in these . Secondly , the jurisdiction of Bishops stands in redressing things amisse . Titus was left in Creta to redresse things amisse , not onely in the people , but Presbyters . Over Presbyters I say , they had a power to command , as Paul saith to Timothy , I left thee at Ephesus that thou mightst charge some that they preach no other doctrine : to judge , therefore he saith , against an Elder receive not an accusation under two or three witnesses , which was a juridicall proceeding : and to silence , as occasion is offered ; for whose mouthes must be stopped , saith Paul to Titus . Which power , if it be onely by verball conviction , as every Minister of the New Testament is bound to doe as he is able , and not by reall suspension , as hee is over Presbyters , the precept is altogether in vaine and idle . For words doe but breed words , and contentious spirits will never have an end . But ( say they ) the Apostles would not suffer themselves to be silenced , no more should wee . If we cannot doe our office in publike , we should doe it private . This is true of the Apostles , and they did well in it , but there are two sorts of Preachers : such as were immediately called , who had their gifts , and matter , and calling , immediately from Christ ; these none but Christ can silence , they are his elect vessels as Paul , to carry his Name : And such as are immediately called , who have their matter and gifts by reading and industry , and their calling by , and from the testimony of man. Now , because some mens sinnes goe before , and some mens follow after , they that gave power , and testimony according to appearance , may , according to after appearance , take testimony away from the unworthy , except they could prove themselves Apostles . But yet ( say they ) grant all this true , yet are there divers exceptions against our Bishops ? what ? such as may justifie a separation ? Let us heare them . Put case Timothy and Titus were Bishops , yet were they not such as ours , that is Diocesan Bishops , what then ? were they parish Bishops ? I wish them read in Church stories of the best times , without which they can never understand some passages of scriptures of the practise of the Church . I am sure this they should finde , that Timothy and Titus had some compasse of jurisdiction allotted , wherein there were Churches at least according to cities , wherein there were many presbyters to be overseene , and ordered : and what was this but a Diocesse , which as the Church increased , increased with it . But these ( say they ) for all that , had no princely authority , and Lordly command over their brethren . That is true : neither is this absolutely necessary to the calling , or of the essence of it ; yet doth it not overthrow it , but adorne and strengthen it when it is well used . If a Bishop were called a beggar , it doth not overthrow his calling ; so neither , if he be called a pallace , who knowes not , that that proceeded from the favour of our Princes , that they might be Barons of the parliament to direct the conscience in deepe matters of state ? But ( say they ) this is against the word of God. Be not Lords over Gods heritage , saith Peter , and saith Christ , the Lords of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them , and they that are great exercise authority over them : but it shall not be so among you : but whosoever wil be great among you , let him be your minister , and whosoever would be chiefe among you , let him bee your servant : therefore neither the Apostles , nor their successors , must as Lords rule over the flocke of Christ , or over one another . Stay heere : Christ affoords no such conclusion . Hee is pleased to oppose , not Kings and Bishops which are in excellent subordination either to other , but Gentiles and Christians : and he doth not abolish magistracy from Christianity ; for then his Apostles were ill schollars , who taught that higher powers are ordained of God , and that they must be obeyed by all under them : neither would he abolish an inequality of ministery in the Church ; for hee himselfe ( I hope ) had superiority over his disciples ; ye cal me master , and Lord , and ye say well ; for so I am : yea , and hee himselfe made first Apostles , secondly Prophets , thirdly teachers , which implies an order , degree , and subordination either to other : neither doth hee heere forbid that his disciples should bee utterly excluded from dealing in any matter of right in the Common wealth ; for then they could easily have replied , Lord wee desire not to meddle in secular affaires , but to have superiority over one another in the Church . But hee labours to prevent the wicked customes of heathen kings in Christian Common-wealthes and Churches , that is , their ruling by their owne lusts and wills , and their ruling for their owne ends without respect to the peoples goods . This is to play the Lords , to domineere over the people , as if they were their vassals , and themselves had all Lordship paramount that could bee imagined . Now , can any man not soaked in malice or prejudice say , that our Bishops rule thus like heathens with force and crueltie . when they governe according to the lawes , and Canons of Church and Common-wealth ? Is not this to rule with the consent of the people in the lawes of the Common-wealth , and with the consent of the presbyterie in the Canons of the Church ? Yea , but now for the exercise of this governement of the Church , it is ( say the Brownists ) fearefully abused by the Bishops in three particulars : 1 In shouldering out such officers in the Church as Christ hath ordained . 2 In imposing oathes upon good men to accuse themselves . 3 And in base usage of the high censure of excommunication . Put case all these were true : were this a sufficient cause of separation ? was Christ no master when his purse-bearer betrayed him , and the rest of his servants runne away from him ? Is his ●eamelesse coate to bee rent in sunder because some of those about him have cast some spots upon it ? Because they may ( if they will ) accuse themselves , will they therefore accuse Christ as if his bounty in our Church were not worth the injoyment ? Because one thing is not well used in the punishment of vice , shall all things be neglected , and spu●ned at that are amongst us for the maintenance of vertue ? yea shall the holy spirit of God assistant in the meanes of salvation amongst us , be belyed , as if all the grace they have gotten amongst us , were no grace till they had discarded us , as some of them doe ? But let us take a viewe of the particulars , and see whether it be so or no , and how far ? First ( they say ) that Bishops justle out Christs officers out of the Church . And who are these ? They tell us first of Elders , lay governing Elders who should have power in the censures of the church and all matters of order . Indeed they had wont to tell us of these much . But since Master Smith ( once of their Church ) hath pulled downe that tottering wall , by proving that there can bee but one sort of Elders proved from the scripture , that is , Pastours , whose governing duty is to feede the flocke of God : and that the Apostle to Timothy , doth not import a distribution of officers , but commendation of severall workes in one office ; teaching that Elders are to be honoured for two workes , well-ruling , and laborious teaching , as he proves by severall texts compared . And since they weigh that a true Church may stand without them ; because otherwise the first Church of Christians from the death of Christ till these supposed Elders are ordained , were not a true Church . And especially since they have brought in their new parish discipline , whereby all power of governement is in the whole congregation ; they are not backeward to confesse that a true Church may be without them , and that they doe not much stand upon that exception against us ( as once a Pastour of that Church confessed to mee ) . Therefore neede not I use more words about that . But yet they claime their Doctours , and Deacons , which ( they say ) the Bishops have banished out of the Church . Indeed wee reade of Doctors to teach the word of God : and if in every congregation ( if maintenance were answerable ) there were one in whom were the word of knowledge , and another in whom were the word of wisdome ( if these gifts meete not in one man ) wee would not mislike it . But that this must be so , as a distinct office and officer in the church , this we deny . For teaching and preaching may meete in the same officer ( whether Pastour of charge , or Doctour of the chaire ) . Christ went about teaching , and preaching the Gospel . Paul and Barnabas continued teaching , and preaching ; Timothy must teach , and preach . And these the Apostle doth not make severall offices : he disjoines them not , but couples them together , Pastors and teachers ; to signifie , that though they bee divers gifts , yet they may be , and are often coupled in one man. And for Deacons ( which is a name given to ministers , and to Christ himselfe ) wee reade indeed of certaine men ( not called Deacons there ) whose worke was to minister to the necessity of the saints , that the Apostles be not driven to leave the word of God , and serve tables : but have not we such , who take care for the poore , that the worke of the Lord by us be not hindred ? Are not our Church-wardens , and overseers the same for substance of office , if they would be also alwaies the same for conscience ? But ( say they ) wee have not the Deacons of Christ . I am sure we have Deacons for the assistance of the worke of the ministery , who serve it for a better degree if they perofrme it wisely . But that Deacons should be such brethren , who doe alwaies attend the businesse of the poore , and not belong to ministeriall order , is without ground : mark their qualification , which needed not for such a worke , men full of the holy Ghost : mark their ordination , which was with imposition of hands , a ceremony ministerial : marke their practise , Stephen preached , and Philip preached , and baptized too : marke their description , they must be proved , and found fit , and if they performe their office well , they shall purchase to themselves a good degree , to ascend higher to be Presbyters , yea and to be Bishops also . And are not our Deacons such ? were they not , yet can wee not bee denied to be a true Church , seeing after the ascension , Christ had a true Church before Deacons were thought of . Put case Bishops did no hurt this way , yet they impose oathes upon good men to accuse themselves , ( say they ) which is against the law of nature , justice , and religion . Certainely nature is for the preservation of the whole body , and head , and so is justice , and religion too . If therefore such oathes are for the maintenance of the head , and body in publicke peace and tranquility , why they may not stand with nature , justice , and religion , I cannot see . If one man bee intrusted with another mans goods which perish , and he pretend that it be dead or stolne , then saith the law , an oath of the Lord shall bee betweene them , and the loser shal accept it , or the wronger shal make restitution . What is heere but an imposing an oath upon a man to accuse , or excuse himselfe ? If a man trespassed against his neighbour , an oath was to be layed upon him to cause him to sweare before the altar , in Gods house : yea , and if any person were concealed from the King , he tooke an oath of the kingdome and nation that they found him not as Obadiah saith to Elijah : what is heere againe but an oath imposed to excuse , or to accuse a mans selfe ? And what doe our Bishops more then thus ? If Iacob bound Esau by an oath to secure that which he had bought of him . If Salomon bound Shime● by an oath to his confinement in Ierusalem , because hee knew hee had a wicked heart against governement , from his grievous curse against David , to secure his peace , why may not our Bishops ( having law in their hand ) secure the rights of the Church , and peace of the state , by the like oath also ? How is it possible that the Church and state can ever live securely , when false brethren come in privily to bring us into bondage ; when they creep into houses and lead captive simple women ; when certaine men creep in unawares , whose words eate as doth a canker , being closely conveyed , and having secret operations upon weake spirits , I say , how is it possible to bee safe from th●se , but by the oath of God to make them manifest ? A● when treason is detected , suspected , presumed , or fained , I hope no man thinke it unfit that the king , who is worth tenne thousand of us , should be secured by an oath , though it bee to the losse of thousands of lives : so ( nor I thinke ) can they judge it unfit that the Church , the spouse of Christ should be secured of her rights , and peace , by an oath ▪ though thousands doe suffer in goods , and liberty by it . But ( say they ) if Bishops may be excused in former things , yet can they not in the base usage of the censure of excommunication , I am yet glad that they doe so highly account of it : for it is a fearefull censure indeed , when men by it are separated from publike Communion , and fellowship with Christ in his ordinances of salvation , and so bound and held under the guilt of sinne . Too many doe too highly esteeme it ; and because some zealous men in former times have called the Excommunication of the Pope and his clergy ( when it was whetted against grace and the true worship of God ) a woodden dagger ; therefore they think that they may doe the like against ours . Why not ( say the Brownists ? ) seeing the Bishops doe ingrosse it to themselves , when it is a common power to the whole Church . They doe use it no otherwise than Paul , who while hee kept that key in his owne hands , by his owne spirit and authority , cast out the incestuous person , as I have said before . Nay , they doe not ingrosse it to themselves ; for they doe denounce it according to Canons and rules which are made in Synods and convocations of Bishops and Presbyters , gathered by the authority of their Princes . But ( say they ) they are decreed by Chancellors , Commissaries , and Officials . By them indeed as servants to the Lawes and Canons of the Church under their jurisdiction , for execution . For the censures are not referred to them , or any , but according to Lawes and Constitutions , which they are sworn to execute justly and impartially . I thinke that they cannot blame this service of theirs , if they consider the originall . First Bishops judged ecclesiasticall causes in person , under which burthen they groaned , and the Church was deprived of other comforts . Then , when causes increased by the increase of the Church , and all ordinary cases were ruled by the canons of Counsels , there was lesse need of Bishops presence . And when matters of Tythes , Testamentary , and Matrimoniall ( by the favour of Princes ) were referred to Ecclesiasticall cognisance , then such assistants were ordained , as by such study and industry were usefull to serve the Church under Bishops : and what hurt is here ? Sweet servants indeed ( say they ) who having this spirituall Sword in their hands doe thus abuse it . Doe we not see indulgences , and pardons , by their absolutions , and suspensions of processes , flye abroad for money in their commutations , and purse penances ? As for Indulgences , they are of two sorts , Papall , and Evangelicall ; the Pope grants them out of Papall authority , by way of mitigation of these satisfactions we owe to God : these we abhorre and disclaime as impious . But in our Church they are granted , upon repentance and promise of amendment , by way of mitigation of that satisfaction wee owe to men offended by us . Of these Paul doth speake , sufficient to such a man is this punishment : yee ought to ▪ forgive him , lest he be swallowed up with too much sorrow . And if this be not regulated aright , the fault is in persons , not in this good order . It is true that this is granted when offenders doe but say to them , I am sorry , I repent , I will doe it no more : which though it be not enough to take off the merit of sinne before God , yet is it enough to take off the censure of excommunication . For this is a sure rule , that that which is enough to constitute an outward member of the visible Church , is enough to admit a wounded member into the outward priviledges of it . And for purse penances and commutations , of which you speake , let it be considered that it hath some ground in the Word of God. For if there may bee a commutation by the purse for murther ( as ye may see in the law of the owners Oxe killing a man , as I have said ) why not for lesse matters when it is well regulated ? Yea but ( say they ) doe we not see more abominations yet ? Is not power , by their dispensing of Excommunications , taken from Churches , to remove scandals , and purge out wicked livers , to the annoyance of the Kingdome of Christ ? Put case wee had not power to remove scandals , must they therefore separate ? If they abstained from the approbation of sinne , and labored to supply the defect of this power by holinesse of life , might they not thus judge the world , and continue in our fellowship with glorious comfort ? Put case we had no power to purge wicked livers , must they presently say , Depart from me , I am holier than thou ? They should beare onely their owne burthens in sinne , and one anothers burthen by compassion , toleration , charity , and meeknesse . By rash separation the correction of the wicked is not furthered , but hindred : for when they see themselves contemned , they are put further from the Kingdome of Heaven , and made sevenfold the child of Hell more , to the hazzard of all . But the truth is we have excellent power for both these workes . Though not in all the members of every particular congregation , as they meane ; for then no man could perish in the gaine-saying of Core , whose mutiny was because he could not be equall to Aaron , whom God appointed his superiour : yet have wee it in every Diocesse , where lawes are made not by one but many , for the ruling of all under them . And if persons were not sometimes in fault more then offices ( who yet seeme worse through the impetuous carriages of those that speake evill of governement , and thinke it as easie to rule multitudes , as a few in a Parlour ) wee might be easily as happy in our power as all the Churches under Heaven . Then , I pray , tell me ( say they ) the reason of two things ; why ungodly men are not cast out ? and why your excommunication is thundred against good men , meaning Solution . 1 themselves ? The reason of the first is because good Canons are not observed . Were Bishops never so good , and their officers never so carefull under them , yet if Church-wardens , that should , upon the oath of God , present scandals , thinke thus ; I shall be accounted a troubler of my neighbours , our presentments come to nothing , but to make the court rich , to present the poore , brings but charge to the parish , meaning his owne purse , no man can observe all the Canons , or it is better , to punish them before the civill magistrate out of prejudice to courts of spirituall judicature ; then is it impossible , be the governement never so good that wicked men should bee cast out . But if Church-wardens be as the house of Cloe to Paul to give true information and to open the eyes of the not-seeing judge , they shall soone heere , as of that incestuous person , Cast them out . But the truth is , this question neede not be moved by them , seeing they see more cast out in our Churches , then in the Churches of Corinth , whereof choise of wicked members we heare onely of excommunicating onely one beast . To the second quaere I answere , because it Solution . 2 may fall out so in all the societies in the world , that a good man may not be a good citizen , nor a good member of a visible Church . If then they are cast out it is not for goodnesse , but because they are not good enough . There is a double goodnesse , a certaine goodnesse , and a controversal goodnesse , which is so judged of some good men , but not so of others as good as they . No good man is cast out by us for certaine goodnesse , but for controversal , which ends in stirres and tumults , and then , I would they were cut off that trouble you saith Paul. Againe there is a double goodnesse , in the thing it selfe , and in the carriage of it : as Iobs cause was good , yet he carried it badly , and therefore before God received him to his favour , he was driven to abhorre himselfe and repent in dust and ashes . No man by us is cast out for any good thing , but for his undiscreet and bad carriage of it . A man doth not onely love the meate , but the dressing of it , so doth God the manner , as well as the matter , and so doth the Church . If therefore the carriage of goodnesse end in faction , and turbulency , the actours , happly , may bee justly cast out for a time to make them more humbly wise . Yea but ( say they ) such good men as were persecuted for our consciences by the Bishops and their instruments , with their curses , and prisons , when wicked men are spared . It may fall out so justly in three cases : when wicked men confesse their faults , and they deny them , when there is publicke cognisance by a cleare and open law against their faults , and not against the other . And thirdly , when one disturbs the publike peace of the church more then the other . For ( as it is well said ) in a Common-wealth some smaller offence hath heavier punishment , as breaking open a poore Cottage where no goods are lost , or person hurt , then the stealing of some cattell , which haply are more worth , because the publike tranquility and peace of subjects is more hurt : so also is it justly in the Church when publike peace is in hazard . But is the sinne of separation so great , that it should be punished more then blasphemy , perjury , whoring , drunkennesse , say they ? All these and other sinnes are detestable , and by all lawes fall under great censures , and finde not the spirit of meeknesse but the rod , when the sleepy consciences of Officers will present them in due course of Law. Yet the sinne of separation is very great . It makes men throw durt in their mothers face , and defile their fathers and brethren . It stands and pleads it own justification in despight of government , whereas the other are selfe condemned wretches . It sowreth many quickly under shew of holinesse , whereas the other are abhorred by a naturall conscience . It begets divisions which breed thoughts of heart , and proud contentions , whereas none will contend in defence of the other ; yea , it shakes the hearts of men in Religion , making them to doubt whether any Religion be good . For while they see these that are reputed good men to be so divided , the adversary triumphs , the scoffer mockes , but the serious Christian , that knowes he must have a Religion to bring him to heaven , knowes not which way to take . His body is in one Church , his soule in another , his opinion in neither , but as the wind of affection , and the tide of well pleasing persons carry him ▪ whereas the other move him not one foo● in Religion . For Religion gives holy and good principles . If they be not sucked into make men better , it is not because Religion is naught , but because those that professe it are too bad , as they will know in the day of our Lord Iesus . Weigh but this throughly , and you will not blame Bishops for the punishment of the vaine sinne of separation . But put case ( say they ) that they did well in all their former use of excommunication , yet when they make it base and vile in excommunicating for triviall and unworthy causes , as fees , and small portions of money to be paid by them that are not able to pay , in this they sinne against the Kingdome of Christ . Indeed if it be so through Bishops faults , now verily there is a fault . I know no Bishop in our Church but would willingly redresse it . If there be a defect any where it is in Law , not in Bishops Courts . If there were any common Law for the poore Minister to recover his Offerings , and other petty dues ▪ for the officers of courts to procure their fees , whereof both must live or sterve , would they ever run to the dreadfull sentence of excommunication ? It proceeds not from any order or sentence of our Bishops , but from a meere want of other law , for which I hope they will not separate from the common-wealth ; get some law to recover their rights other wayes , and then excommunication shall shine in its glory . Yet , in the meane time , thus much ( I am sure ) may be said , to quiet a tender conscience . A man askes his dues , and it is denied : so hee that denies it , is an unrighteous person . He askes it againe , and it is denied in choller : so , he that denies , is a contentious person ; hee askes it againe , and hee is reviled : so hee that doth so is a reviler . Now , the holy Ghost saith , that contentious persons shall have indignation , and wrath , tribulation , and anguish : that unrighteous persons , theeves and revilers , shall not inherit the Kingdome of God. Therefore they are bound in heaven while they are so . Is not this reciprocall then , those that are bound in heaven , should upon due conviction , bee bound on earth , and those that are so bound on earth , shall bee bound in heaven ? But these that will not pay just fees , dues , if they bee able , upon conviction , and contumacy , are bound in heaven : therefore upon their contumacy th●y may lawfully bee excommunicate . Yea but ( say they ) the Bishops officers should have no fees at all in spirituall cases . Should they not live ? so it may bee , some would , that would doe what they list . But when they spend their time and strength in rectifying disorders as they can by law , shall they have no reward ? Indeed it were a gracious thing , if there were a common treasury to maintaine them that they might heare no more of , they eate up the sinnes of the people : yet because they must bee maintained one of these two wayes ; either out of the common purse of the innocent , or out of the purses of the guilty . Iudge whether it be more equal that one man should spend for another mans sinne , or that a man that will sinne should be driven to spend for his owne ; that if he feare not sinne , yet at the least he may feare the weakning of his purse . And thus ( at the last , by Gods blessing ) have I done with the first general plea of the Brownists against us , that we are no true Church . We have all their pleas , about the nature of a true Church , the enterance into a true Church , the head of a true Church , the members of a true Church , and the government of a true Church . In al which , thorough Christs assistance , I have so cleared our Church , and shewed the vaine singularity of theirs , that , if they will not come to us , yet wee shall keepe where we are , and not forsake the fellowship in our assemblies . SECT . 14. The Brownists second opinion upon ▪ which they forsake our Church , because we have not a true ministery . WE are now ( by Gods favour ) come unto their second opinion , upon which they ground their separation from us to be just , and necessary ; that we have not a true ministery , and therefore ( alasse ) they pitty me and others of my brethren . They doe , or should know , that the best ministery , now , is the opening and applying the word by them that are sent , that which Paul saith of prophecying , that it is a speaking unto men for exhortation , edification , and comfort , is this same with the best ministery . And if they that doe it be sent , then surely it is right as it should bee . Now , to the sending of this ministery there must bee three acts : the act of Christ ; the act of the Church ; and the act of the parties sent . To Christ all authority and power is given , and he useth a double act : an immediate act when he doth , in calling , extraordinarily fit men with knowledge , and power to do his work , so he fitted the Prophets , Apostles , and Evangelists . A mediate act , when he doth it the ordinary way , by meanes , and degrees . Men ( by his grace ) take heede to doctrine , and to themselves , give attendance upon reading ; and attaine to these foure things : integrity of life , by which they get a good report even of those that are without : Soundnesse in christian Doctrine ; by which they are able to teach , exhort , reprove , correct , and instruct those committed to them . Dexterity in teaching , by which they are apt to teach , and communicate their knowledge to others . And lastly , willingnesse , by which they feed the flocke of God willingly and of a ready minde , out of love and zeale to Christ . Of all these no ordinary man can judge : but hee that findes them in himselfe may say , I thank God , I find this act of Christ in sending me which opens the doore . The act of the Church is the Porter that doth let us in : and stands in foure things , presentation , probation , ordination , and election . Presentation is when those that are to be called are presented . Thus the Disciples presented or set before the Apostles Ioseph , Barsabas , and Matthias ; as after they set before them the Deacons that were to be called . Probation is a triall of their gifts and life : as Paul saith , Let them first bee proved , and then let them minister if they be found worthy . Ordination is when they are consecrated and set apart with imposition of hands , and prayer . Thus Paul and Barnabas ordained the Elders in every Church , and Titus was left in Creta for this end . Election and calling is when they are assigned for execution of their Office to their particular titles and allotments , as Matthias to his Apostolicall jurisdiction , and Timothy , and Titus to Episcopall in Ephesus and Creta ; which Election though it may bee conceived to goe before Ordination in respect of the office to which they are elected , yet not in respect of the execution of it in their particular places . The Act of the party sent , is a desire of the Office for the glory of God , and a purpose to spend and to be spent upon that service . They must have ( ordinarily ) a desire of their office , and to addict themselves to the Ministery of the Saints as the house of Stephanas . If it seeme to be unlawfull for a man to desire it , because Moses and Ieremy were unwilling to undertake such high service ; and all the Apostles were called without their owne seeking , and above their desires ; yea and some ancient worthies have been found to hang backe when such offices have beene tendred ? yet when wee consider the willingnesse of Esay , here am I send me , we must learn to judge aright . If any desire it when they are not meet and qualified , it is a wickednesse against justice and charity : against justice in taking the hire when hee is no labourer ; and against charity in not feeding the soules committed his trust . If any qualified man desire it in a wicked way , as ambitions suit , slavish flattery , or the like , it is stained to them who make gaine their godlinesse . But if they desire it out of notice and testimony of sufficiencie to bee Christs instruments ( as they are able ) to further the worke of the Lord , and the salvation of souls , as Esay , it is both just and charitable . It is a worthy worke , and full of charity , and to bee desired : Yea God moves the heart of some to it , and he never doth that to what is unlawfull . As for Moses , Ieremy , and some others , it proceeded out of a too backward modesty , upon conscience of their owne unworthinesse : and as for the Apostles their case was different ; they knew of no such service to be done , and therefore they could not desire it . Againe , the partie sent hath a purpose to spend , and to be spent in the service of Christ . They know it to bee a worke ; yea , and to bee a worthy worke too ; because hee never laboureth without Christ his Lord and master : hee laboureth for the saving of soules , in whose hearts they have honour , as well as with God in Christ : and therefore hee resolves to say as Paul , I will very gladly spend , and bee spent for you , though the more abundantly I love you , the lesse I bee loved . This they doe or should know to make up the best Ministery of Christ . But ( say they ) where is this to be found ? Certainly in our Church , in those that are sent according to the true meaning of our Lawes and Canons both ecclesiasticall and temporall . It is their true intent and meaning , that none should enter ( when they can be had ) but such as are such and thus qualified . If it bee otherwise , it falls out as betwixt Ahimaaz and Cushi : Ahimaaz was forward and would goe carry newes to the King : Ioab denyes him , and sends Cushi ; yet Ahimaaz presseth , and would goe , and went with much a doe , and came to the king first . But when hee came there , hee could onely say , I saw a tumult , but I know not what . It was Cushi that did the message to purpose , who was the messenger intended . So in the intention of our lawes and governours , the best able , instructed , and worthy should still be sent : but when they are deluded with unworthy presentations ; false testimonies , seeming appearances of learning and gravity , ( for some mens sinnes goe before , some follow after ) and with popular importunities , which seldom proves to the best , the least worthy runne fast●st , to the scandal of good lawes , and blessed orders . But for all this , why should wee not have a true ministery ? O no ( say the Brownists ) , excuse what you can , you have not the true ministery of Christ . Indeed we have not Prophets , Apostles , and proper Evangelists : but have we not Past●rs and teachers ? Look upon Christs formal markes of true shepheards . First , they are not the ministers of the Pope of Rome that spiritual Babilonian ; no more are wee . They are proper sacrificing priests for the quicke and the dead , so are not wee . They are his by doctrine , oath , obedience , which ●s the true marke of a servant : so are not wee . They are imbraced by him as his sonnes , we are disclaimed , and persecuted by him with fire and fagot . If wee were of him he would love us , for the wor●d love her owne . Secondly , they publish sound doctrine , which is the trial of a true minister . Such as stand not in his counsel , and declare not his word , are not sent of God as they should : but if they bee nourished up in the words of faith , and of good doctrine , to which they have attained , of which they put the brethren in remembrance , I hope they are true pastours . It is true that all truth is not sit at once ; there must be first milke , then stronger meate : and ordinary pastours have not all truths so revealed as they cannot erre in sōething : yet if they walk according to the same rule , minding the same thing , and humbly expect , though they bee otherwise minded then some other of their brethren , in some things , till God reveale even that unto them , by the scriptures , and publicke discussions , and lawfull definitions of the Church , I hope they are the true ministers of Christ . Thirdly , they have the true properties of a good shepheard given by Christ . They goe in by the doore , that is , Jesus Christ who calleth them by his Church . The porter openeth to them , that is , not the wh●le house , multitude , and congregation ; this cannot but bee a vaine dreame : but partly the holy Ghost who openeth to them by gifts , and partly the governours of the Church , who are delegated under Christ for their admittance . They call their sheep by their names , labouring to know the state of their flocks , that they may draw out of their treasury things , both new , and old , and minister to them according to their need . They lead them forth , from pasture to pasture , from milk to strong meate , that they may be sat and wel-liking before Christ . For though many of their people are ignorant and wicked ( because they will not come to Christ that they may be saved ) yet as the Shepheard leades his cattell to greene pastures and waters , though they will not eat or drink of them : so our good Ezekiels are leaders of their people , though the wicked , that follow not , perish . And lastly , they goe before their flockes , in sound Doctrine and good life , both according to the intention of our Church in sending them , and very often in plaine examples . And are not these true Ministers that doe thus ? Fourthly , they have an ordinary and daily assistance of Christ for the converting of soules . For though it cannot be said of every particular true Minister : for I have laboured in vaine and spent my strength for nothing , said Esay ; The bellowes are burnt , the lead is consumed , the Founder melteth in vaine , for the wicked are not plucked away : yet is it true , of a true Ministery of a Church , in generall ; for if they stand in Gods counsell , and declare his Word to Gods people they shall turne them . And is it not thus with our Ministery ? Hath not the Gospel beene the power of God by it to many that have beleeved it ? Can they not truly say , In Christ Iesus wee have begotten thousands through the Gospel ? Let it be said , that our Ministery hath converted none from Heathenisme and Judaisme to Christianity , as the Apostles did ; yet hath it beene by Christs blessing , powerfully sealed by plucking away thousands from lewd courses , by no compulsion , but by the feare of God wrought by the preaching of the hammer and fire of the Law and Gospel , by us ; and by converting them to holinesse of life . If it be said that none can be converted but Infidels , such as the Apostles converted in the first planting of the Churches of the Gentiles : It is certaine that it is as true a conversion from any sinne to sanctification , as from infidelity to faith . For Iohn Baptist was sent to turne the disobedient Iewes : and Peter after his fall was to be converted : and Ephraim was to say , turne thou me and I shall be turned : and the remnant of Iacob was to returne to the mighty God. But ( say they ) this may be done by private persons , as by the woman of Samaria , and by the good wife , who winnes her husband by her conversation . Who doth doubt that as the base carriage of Christians doth make religion blasphemed : so the faire carriage of thē doth win aliens to like it ? Who doubts but the perswasions of others may draw men to Christ or his followers to bee informed in good wayes ? Who doubts of Aquilas and Priscillas taking Apollos ( a man mighty in the Scriptures ) and making him understand the wayes of Christ better ? Yea and Christ ( if hee please ) may use them as meanes for thorow conversion . But what is Christs ordinary way ? hee hath now given Pastors and Doctors , not onely for the setting of the Saints in joynt , and edifying of the body of Christ , but for the worke of the Ministery : and what is that ? It is to open mens eyes , and to turne them from darknesse to light , that they may receive forgivenesse of sinnes and inheritance among them that are sanctif●ed by Faith in Christ . Therefore our Ministery having done thus , are not these true Ministers ? No ( say the Brownists ) and therefore doe they make exceptions against us . They like not our ordainers , our titles , our callings , our infirmities , nor our maintenances : therefore we are not true Ministers . Let us follow them with Christs light . It is as if they should have said , though we cannot overthrow the substance of your Ministery , yet we reject you because of the circumstances of it , as the children of Israel who could not out-face Elishaes calling from God , yet could in scorne say come up thou bald-pate , thou art not without thy blemish , till the Beares stopt their mouthes . Let them take heede . If a King have all the substance of right and Kingshippe , yet if in his inauguration hee have not a pleasing ●nnointer , title , acclamation , maintenance , or have some infirmities , is hee not a right King ? I doubt , if these spirits had power in their hand , neither true King , nor true Priest , nor true people , should scarcely be found to stand before them . But to the particulars . They say , wee are ordained by Bishops , who are ( as they are such ) the very limbes of Antichrist . That they are the blessed governors of our Church , according to the patterne , and rules Apo●tolicall , of Timothy and Titus , I have shewed before . And by whom should wee be ordained but by such ? Can a good man dreame that the body of a people of men , and women , have a power to ordaine and consecrate presbyters , when if he runne thorough the whole new testament , he can never find but bresbyters ordained by presbyters ? If ours bee Bishops , yet they are presbyters and more . They have an order , and jurisdiction , by right above us , as Titus in Creta , yet I hope , that doth not exclude presbytership from them . The inferiour orders may stand alone , but the superiour comprehends all . A Bishop may reade , administer sacraments , and doe other offices of the inferiour orders , and often doth : whereas the other inferiour offices have no jurisdiction over their brethren , where the blessing of Bishops may by the favour of times , and Princes bee setled according to the word of God. That which is their weapon heere , I suffer to runne unto my heart , not to wound it , but to comfort it : that I have not beene brought up in other Churches , to receive my ordination from the presbytery ( which yet is good in case of necessity , when our way cannot be had ) : but that I have received it by the hand of a Bishop , as well as presbyters , which makes the practises and rules of scriptures about ordinations the lesse defective , the more compleat . But these Bishops of ours ( say they ) doe ordaine us Priests , which is not a ministery of the new testament . And what if we be so called in our ordination ? Is it so contemptible a name which is put upon all Christians , both kings and beggars ? may not we be called so as ministers , as well as we , and they too as Christians ? Indeed , popish Priests had an ill name , when they ruled our people , which made it a name of disgrace : and proud and scornefull people will cast it upon us , with disgrace , who doe deserve better : but by Christs helpe , I shall never bee ashamed of that name which I must labour to answer in my office , if I will bee found faithfull . Christ as a Priest maketh intercession ; and I as a Priest must pray for my people , as Paul did often . Christ as a Priest did offer a sacrifice ; & I as a Priest must minister the Gospel of God , that the sacrificing of my people may be acceptable , as Paul of the Gentiles . And why should any bee offended at that name by which the holy Ghost calls us ? for when Esay speaketh of the ministers of the new testament , hee saith , of them will I take for Priests , and Levites ; saith the Lord. What matters it what wee are called , so long as wee offer no idolatrous sacrifice , but onely in our office commemorate the sacrifice of Christ , and doe other services for his honour ? Put case wee may bee Priests in name , and Presbyters indeed , yet ( say they ) wee are not called by the people , whose souls we feed , but are put upon them by lawes and Canons . This is in part true , but not fully : for while Presbyters are put into parishes by law , they come unto them by their owne consent . For have not the people chosen knights , and Burgesses to draw up , and to consent to lawes for them ? And have not Presbyters chosen clarkes , synodically to meete , to make rul●s and Canons for them ? And doe not both these settle Presbyters in every parish . Therefore they are inducted by all ministers and peoples consent . But put case it were fully true , were wee not therefore true ministers ? Did we never heare of a man and woman that were married together against the will of one party ( by the power of parents ) who yet , being married , were true man and wife , and by an after combining , lived lovingly together ? so may it bee in this case : a free consent of minister and people after , in the true worship of God may supply and make up that defect . But is it certaine that the people have such a right in calling their Presbyters ? Let us looke into the sure word of God. I see the right of Christian Magistrates in choosing them unto their places . Take thou unto thee Aaron for the Priests office , saith God : and thus did Moses . See also how David did sort , and divide the Priests and Levites for their severall workes . Did not Solomon by soveraignety deprive Abiathar , and induct Zadoch , yea and appoint the Priests and Levites to their severall service , as David ? Did not Hezekiah the same , and that not by instinct , as a type of I know not whom , but still after the example of David , who was not checked for it ? Why then should our Christian kings lose their rights , which they partly execute by themselves , and partly according to the lawes by their delegates , and officers , both in Church , and Common-wealth ? It is true , we may reade of the people to have some hand about Church officers in the scriptures , as when Matthias was chosen , and when the Deacons ( as they call them there ) were : yea and in after times too , till uproares , tumults , and seditions followed for want of those graces , which the people in the Apostles times had : but let them duely weigh , that Christ hath left no precept for that , no nor established practise in all Churches . Yea , such elections never were but when the Apostles were present with them , yea the people must be confessed then to have extraordinary gifts ( they were baptized , and the Holy Ghost came upon them ) and so to bee able to be assistant in choyce . Yet these people did never assume it as a right in themselves , but come to it upon the Apostles exhortations for the time being . How slender therefore are such grounds , which fell out in unimitable cases , and when there was no Christian Magistrate , to carry with them a continued right , let good consciences guided by the Word of God , judge ▪ I know not what the Brownists will say to this ; but I am sure they loade us with fresh burthens which presse us downe from being a true Ministery , at least in the guilty . They finde in many of our congregations wicked and ignorant Priests , who pollute the whole worship of Christ ; and are these the true Ministers of Christ ? They are true Ministers of Christ , if they minister the things of Christ truely : true Word , true Sacraments , true Prayers according to the measure of the gift of Christ. There is a difference betwixt a good man and a true man : so betwixt a good Minister and a true Minister . I wish from my soule that this distinction need not : and that all Presbyters and Bishops were both unreproveable in life , and able to teach ; that so neither Brownists nor Atheists may have occasion to stumble at them . But so long as Satan and hypocrisie are in the Church , there will bee such annoyances : Yet Gods people must not abhorre the sacrifices for the wickednesses of Elyes sonnes ; if they doe they sinne as God hath said . Put case they be wicked Priests , yet may they performe the true service of Christ . Iesus Disciples baptized sufficiently ( I hope ) and Iudas was one of them , yet himselfe was a Divell . The Priests and Levites of old offered sacrifices , celebrated Sacraments whereby the faithfull had their faith confirmed , yet too many of them were too wicked . Christs ordinances have their efficiencie from him , not from them that serve about them . The garden may bee watered and made fruitfull by water that runs thorow a woodden gutter , yet that not a whit the better , but the worse for it . The Sunne may give us comfortable light thorow a sluttish and noysome window , yet that never the better by it . The field may bring forth a goodly crop though sowed with a durty hand . The Bell may call us to the Church though it never enter it selfe but by the sound . The Well may yeeld excellent water though it have much mud . Therefore though such Preachers are odious , yet how can the people refuse the holy things of God which come truely from them . They will if they deserve hanging , receive the Kings pardon whosoever writes or brings it to them . They have deserved worse , Hell , will they refuse the seale of a pardon from a wicked Priest ? Put case they be ignorant Priests ( though , blessed be God , that cloud was never better blowne over ) I hope they know how to preach the Word and administer the Sacraments truely . The Disciples were not such excellent Clearkes when they baptized . Though they were initiated in Christs Schoole , examine whether they did not doe it before they were sent to preach : They baptized before Iohn was cast into prison : and Christ did not begin to preach himselfe publikely before Iohn was imprisoned , and after that he sent his Disciples to preach : what they were that went with Peter to Cornelius let them certainly tell me . The Text calls them certaine brethren ; yet when Peter had preached to Cornelius and those about him , hee commanded them to be baptized : who baptized them ? As yet there was no communion betwixt the faithfull and the Gentiles , and onely certaine brethren went with Peter , and no Deacons chosen but them at Ierusalem . I doubt they will not find such clearkship in them . Thus I answer them , not to uphold an ignorant ministery , I abhorre it from my soule : or to beare with private persons medling with the holy things of God ; for our Church government is against it . But partly because the Word saith , that God hath set in the Church helps or helpers to be assistant in reading and in ministring of the Sacraments to teachers , and partly because none should thinke no Sacraments true Sacraments , except administred by learned Clearkes fully able to teach . But now , to let all things passe which are gone for this time , the Brownists will have about with our Ministery if it be but for our maintenance . Our maintenance is a Jewish and ceremoniall maintenance ; namely , Tythes , which are fitter for the ministers of Antichrist , whose Religion hath a mixture of Judaisme in it , then for the Ministery of Christ . They will not deny that they that preach the Gospel , should live of the Gospel : this Christ hath ordained , and not man. Nor will they deny that the Apostle proves by the Law and Leviticall practice , that the Ministers of the Gospel must have maintenance from the Church . Neither will they deny that he that laboureth in the Word and doctrine is worthy of double honor , & must be communicated unto by him that he teacheth in all good things : But yet they doe not love to heare of these Iewish Tythes . I would aske them this one question : They say they must doe nothing about the worship of God , or for the support and maintenance of it , but what they must have a particular warrant from the Word of God for . Well then , seeing God doth require that Pastours should bee maintained honourably by a communicating in every good thing , let them tell me , how they will satisfie their consciences in the particular quantity they must bestow upon them : Some men will say one thing , some another , but how will conscience be satisfied , that it may dye in the peace of justice and charity ? The Scripture speakes not of any other particular quantity but the tenth part , what therfore else can satisfie conscience that it erre not ? But ( they will say ) that ●thes are Jewish ceremonies which are abo●ished . It is easie to say so , but not so easie to prove . For Jewish ceremonies are shadowes of things to come , the body whereof is Christ . Let them shew from Gods word that tythes are so accounted . I am sure than God blames the faulty performance and resting in ceremonies : but hee never blameth the neglect of ceremonies , as of tythes , when hee saith , ye are cursed with a curse , for yee have robbed me , even this whole nation , in not paying tythes . Yea we never read that ever Christ said so much of any Jewish ceremony as of tythes , these things ought ye not to leave undone . If it be said , that this maintenance cannot be proved out of the new testament . I say , that this wil trouble any man to prove : for when Paul proves out of the law , that the ministery of the new testament hath maintenance due , doth he not say , ( so ) hath the Lord ordained , that hee that preacheth the Gospel should live of the Gospel ? and how is that ? As they of old lived at the altar by tythes , so we now . Againe , doth not the Apostle say , that tythes are due to the ministery of Christ that lives , because they were due to Melchizedech , to whom Abraham payed them as a Priest , and tythe-taker , and type of Christ ? who therefore should receive them , but those that are in his stead to beseech you to be reconciled unto God ? The same reason that God gives why Levi should have Gods portion , ( because God is his portion ) is it not true , of ministers whom alone hee hath taken to bee ministers of the new testament ? It is true , they are not Priests after the order of Melchizedech , as Christ was , yet the High-priest of our profession , hath ordained us to live out of his portion , which must bee his tythes due to him , or else our consciences can never bee setled what it is . Let them duely weigh this , and when they can salve it up well , as in the sight of God , then may they heare of much more ; we hate Judaisme as much as they , but we cannot beare that title , except it be inflicted by Christ himselfe . And thus ( by the helpe of God ) I have cleared their second exception , upon which they separate , because wee are not a true ministery . SECT . 15. The Brownists last opinion upon which they forsake our Church , because wee have not a true worship . WE are now come ( thorough Christs helpe ) unto their last exception against us ; which concernes the worship of God amongst us , as if wee had not a true , but an idolatrous worship of the true God. This they doe so much detest ( and so do we too , if they can prove it ) that they cannot with any good conscience have communion with us in it . Doe not wee cleave to the onely true God , by knowledge , repentance , faith , feare , love , confidence , joy , thankfulnesse , patience , and adoration ? Doe wee not know God to bee the onely true God , and therefore give him his true worship in spirit and truth , according to his word ? Doe we not pray to him knowingly , faithfully , zealously , penitently , and obediently desiring to be made better ? Doe we not preach and heare his word carefully , and reverently , desiring to know , and doe ? Doe wee not administer the sacraments of Christ , and receive them with a desire and purpose to enter covenant with God to bee his people , and keepe it unto our lives end ? Doe we not in all these lament our defects , and others , labouring to helpe what we can , and what we cannot patiently suffer ; and lovingly mourne till Christ in the day of judgement fanne away the chaffe ? Doe we not publickely solemnize the Lords day , that in the publicke use of Gods ordinances wee may learne to bee better , and doe better till wee come to the full age in Christ Jesus ? How then can it be imagined that wee should not have a true worship ? Yes ( say the Brownists ) your worship is Ceremonial , typical , and stinted , contrary to Christs will , who would have you worship him in spirit and truth . First they say it is a ceremonial worship ; will no worshippe please them , but a slovenly one , unbecomming the person of that God whom wee worship ? If our ceremonies were part of the worship , as they of the Jewes , or proper worship , as many are reputed in the Church of Rome , then they might talke aloud : but when they are but outward accidents for the well and orderly carriage of the worship of God , what hurt is in them ? Will it grieve any man to see Christians to worship their God in an humble , comely , and reverend way ? Nay would it not vexe any good soule to see them to doe otherwise . They say , that Christ was more faithfull in the house of God then Moses . If therefore Moses prescribed Gods worship onely according to the patterne given , much more doth Christ , to which it is wickednesse to us to adde . Indeed Christ is more faithfull then Moses : for the law was given by Moses , but grace and truth by Iesus Christ : Moses gave a perfect shadow of our reconciliation under types , but Christ gives a perfect body which hath nothing but truth in him , and not a shadow of things , as the things of Moses . But what is this to decent ceremonies , which are not types and shadowes of Christ , and his but onely documents , and signes of our humble and reverend respects to God ? As faithfull as Moses was , yet even then had the Jewes ceremonies of order , and comlinesse , which were not disallowed by God , or reprooved by his Prophets . There are two sorts of ceremonies : such as corrupt the worship of God , and such as doe preserve by advancing the worship of God. If they had made any types of Christ which God had not made , they had corrupted the worship of God , as the Brownists doe ; who when we tell them of the acts of the kings of Iudah ▪ about the worship of God , they presently ( without the warrant of God ) tell us that they were types of Christ . They may 〈◊〉 well say that the kings of other nations were types of Christ too : because the Jewes were to have Kings according to other nations . But when the devout Jewes did by their owne ceremonies , labour to carry the worship of God in the most becomming way , in this they did preserve the worship of God by advancing it . Thus Salomons peace-offering was commanded , but his advancement of that service was permitted to himself , when he offered two & twenty thousand oxen , and an hundred and twenty thousand sheep . Did he now goe against the faithfulnesse of Moses , when he commanded it not ? Did hre not likewise honour God with the solemnity of seven dayes , and seven daies without particular warrant ? He was commanded to pray , but when hee added this ceremony of his owne ( fit for that time of jubilation ) to stand before the Altar , and spread forth his hands toward heaven , did hee corrupt the worship of God because Moses commanded it not ? If Princes hold their people faithfully to them , to serve God and the King , this is commanded them , as the Law is committed to them : but if Ioshuah doe it by setting up a stone in Shechem ; if Asa doe it by an oath , and if Nehemiah doe it by subscription , who hath required it ? Is Moses unfaithfull ? Are not these things permitted to them and us ? To remember Gods benefits is commanded : but for Mordecai and the Iewes to doe it by the Feast of Purim , who hath required it ? was it not onely permitted ? So it is with us : wee have precepts and permissions under generall rules . In conscience to the precepts wee preach and heare the word , wee administer and receive the Sacrament , wee pray both publikely and privately : But in conscience to the permission , we heare and preach from the Pulpit , or from none , with one in a gowne , or cloake , in white , or in blacke : wee receive standing , sitting , or kneeling ▪ we pray standing , lying , or sitting , as necessity and order is put upon us by God and our superiours , and as the worship of God may bee best advanced : And what hurt is heere ? But ( say they ) these permissions are put upon us by peremptory Lawes contrary to our Christian liberty . By a Law indeed they are bound to them with us , but not contrary to Christian liberty : for then Titus was in vaine left in Creta to set in order things that are wanting , if Christians in the outward carriage of things might doe what they list . Therefore I wish them brotherly to consider something concerning ceremonies , and something concerning Christian liberty . Ceremonies may be considered two wayes : Before a Law hath bound this or that way ; and After the bond of a Law. Before , they may have not onely variety , but contrariety , and yet not displease God. One eateth , another eateth not , yet God receiveth both : one esteemeth one day above another , another esteemeth every day alike , yet if they bee charitable , and fully perswaded in their own hearts , God is not displeased . But when a Law hath passed upon them , those things that are permissions in themselves are precepts in their use : as when the Church decreed the abstaining from stranguled and bloud , so long as was convenient for the Churches of the Iewes . As God loves that we should keepe the unity of the spirit in the bond of peace , in one faith : so Paul joyes when hee beholds the order among the Colossians , that all their things were done in love . So long as wee are free , wee are like the daughters of Zelophehad , who , so they kept within their owne tribe , might marry whom they pleased : so wee may looke which way we please , and settle according to our pleasure . But when the law of expediency is put upon us , wee must say , all things are lawfull , but all things are not expedient . When the law of Charity is put upon us , wee must say , if meate make my brother to offend , I will eate no flesh while the world standeth . And when the law of loyalty is put upon us , we must say , thou ( O Christian king ) art worth ten thousand of us , the scandall of thee swallowes up the scandall of ten thousand persons ; therefore wee must doe as Ioab , number the people , no sinne in it selfe , though we see inconveniences that may fall upon it . Next , concerning Christian liberty , it doth not make us lawlesse : for then were it vaine for any Church whatsoever , to determine what is fit for ceremonies to bee done by them : for then every one might flye to Christian liberty , and say , I will doe what I list , my Christian liberty shall beare me out . And how unfit this were ▪ every religious soule c●n judge : but it is a liberty that frees our consciences from inward bondage , that we be not brought under the dominion of any thing . I eate fish or flesh as is appointed , but I am brought under the dominion of neither . I weare white or blacke , I stand , or sit , or kneele , but I am brought under the dominion of none of them . In my conscience , my Christian liberty hath set me free , but in my practise , I am bound in these things to expediency , charity , or loyalty for the establishing of good order in the Church , or in the cōmon-weale . If they would but duely consider these two things , they would never talk of permissions turned into lawes to prejudice Christian liberty . Yea , Christian wisedome would learne them too , that religious worship is called by the name of outward ceremonies used in them : as God calls praying , b●wing of the knees , and swearing , lifting up our hands ; not because these are commanded duties in such acts of worship , but because God permits , and loves our well carriage in his worship according to generall rules , though we have no particular precepts . Yea , but ( say they ) our ceremonies are typicall and Iewish ceremonies , which hurt our worship . They meane ( as I conceive ) they are teaching ceremonies , not ceremonies of meere order , but significant , to put us in minde of duty . I am sorry that this should be accounted a fault . If they did not signifie , how could they edifie ? Were they types and shadowes of the mysteries of the Gospell invented by men , indeed Christ were ill advised not to ordaine them . But being onely mo●al documents and monitors of some duties , I wonder where their guilt lies . If I had an hundred boxes in my house for my uses , and some few of them had a marke upon them , to direct me where my mony lay , that I might be carefull of that , doth this savour of want of naturall wisedome ? So neither doth it taste of want of spirituall wisedome , to set a marke upon some few ceremonies , to put me in minde of my duty to Christ . What are these ( say they ) but images set up to our selves for religious use . What ? to worship ? to adore God in , or by ? No , but to reminde us of what we ought to doe . And this was the practise of the Church in all ages ; Abraham put his servants hand under his thigh in swearing , surely to signifie his subjection to him in that businesse about the promised seede . Moses set up an Altar when Amaleck was overthrowne , and called it Iehovah Nissi , to signifie , that the Lord was their banner . The two tribes and a halfe built an altar , not to distinguish their borders , but to signifie , that they were Gods people , and that they had all one God , to whom they , and their posterity must sacrifice upon his owne altar : Samuel set up a stone when the Philistims were discomforted , and called it Eben-Ezer , to signifie that the Lord helped them . When Christ the truth was come , hee used humane significant ceremonies , as the feast of dedication , sitting at the Passeover , a signe of rest , the water pots of the jewish purifications , the custome of embalming , beside other formalities of the synagogue . The Corinthians had the womens vaile in the congregation , to signifie subjection , and the kisse of peace ▪ to signifie love . Other Christians had Agapae at the sacrament , in the roome whereof the Christians offertory was brought in for pious uses , to signifie that love they should have one to another . So wee have standing at the beliefe ▪ to signifie that it is not a prayer , and that wee are ready to confesse our faith ; kneeling at the commandements , to signifie the honour we have to that God that gave it , and that wee must be ready to dart up prayer for our obedience ; and kneeling at the sacrament , to signifie an humble acknowledgement of Gods love for so great a benefit . And doe wee and all these saints before us set up images to our selves in these ceremonies , for religious u●e ? God forbid . The practise of these saints when the lawes of God were purely taught and kept , teach us , that though we my not set up an image to worship God by , or in , yet may we set up some edifying signes to put us in minde of those duties wee owe to God. The Patriarchs may build altars , give their children proper names , to be admonishing signes of their duties to God : and we may set all our sences on work that way . We may set up a poste in a darke and dangerous passage , that when I goe that way and touch it , it may signifie my danger , and I may avoide it ▪ I may set a watch-man in a towre to give a sound when the enemy comes , that he may signifie my enemies approach , and I may avoid him . I may set up a Sea marke to signifie a Rocke neere , that I split not upon it , And may not we be as wise for our soules as for our bodies ? God forbid . I am sure he hath no where forbidden it : therefore it is not against Christ . If it be not against him , it is for him , saith our Saviour . Why then ( say they ) have we cast out all the significant ceremonies of Popery . Not for their significancy barely , but for their weight and measure . They are not to them onely , as outward garnishments of worship , but as proper worship , efficacious and meritorious : their number stifles devotion , and fills it with shewes without substance . A cup of water refreshes , but an whole Well of water choakes . Yea an hundred Sermons weekly would not edifie , they would eate out our conscience in our particular callings : much more would an hundred ceremonies eate out the substance of our generall callings , when a few may much refresh and profit , if judgement over-power fancie and affection . Yea but ( say they ) our significant ceremonies were taken from Idolaters and limbs of Antichrist who have abused them . Were this true , yet take the drosse from the silver and make a vessel for the finer : but it is false . Though they have had such as ours , and have still , yet ours are our owne , and were never theirs in speciall . Fire and water are contrary , yet they agree in their kind , they are both elements : so ours are ceremonies , and so are theirs , but otherwise they differ as fire and water ; they scorne therefore ours , and we deride theirs . We read of sacrifices offered to Devils , yet some of this was sold in shambles , and some the Heathens made feasts of . It was all the same flesh in kind , but not in use . The christians did damnably if they went to it when it was sacrificed , yea and if they went to their Idol feasts when they blessed an idol , it was idolatry : but if they bought part of that flesh in the Shambles , and eate it , or went to their private feasts when they eate of it ( for ought they knew ) without reference to the Idol , then saith Paul , Eate making no question for conscience sake . So say we of our crosse , Surplice , kneeling , they were ordinances before Idolators abused them . If they take them and blesse an Idol with them , be it upon their own pates ▪ but if we be invited to them in a better use ( and not know , nor have just cause to suspect any lurking Idolatry ) why should wee make so many needlesse questions about the use of them ? Put case such as they are , pertained to Idolaters . So did Goliahs sword , yet David laid it up in an holy place for better use . So did bowing belong to Baal , prostrating the whole body to Idols , kissing to the Calves , kissing the hand to the hoste of heaven , lifting up the eies , stretching forth both hands , showting for joy , sitting or lying along upon the ground , or on a carpet , to idols : yet all these we may use in the worship of the true God. So for our ceremonies , such as they are pertained to idolaters , but were not idolatrous of themselves . The crosse was used as a signe of profession before idolatrie prevailed . The white garment was ordained as a cover-sloven in the poverty of the Church ; kneeling was used as an act of reverence before the breaden God was hatcht . And may not we lawfully use them now , to shew that we are in communion and fellowship with that blessed and persecuted Church , without such noises and schismes . Yea , but in our worship there is ( say they ) as bad as all behinde ; wee have a stinted worship by that foule idol the common prayer booke , and so we worship not in spirit , and truth . Doe we not worship in spirit , when the spirit moves towards heaven as well as the flesh ? Doe wee not worship in truth , when our petitions are true petitions , uttered with a true tongue according to the truth of our hearts ? Doe wee not worship in spirit and truth , when with such petitions , heart , and tongue ; we seek to God in all places , not trusting in any ? Certainely wee doe , and should doe farre better , were it not for them who disgrace our common-prayer booke , and draw the hearts of Gods people from it . Yet those that know the vanity of their words , and trust them not , know also , that they , even when they use that booke to send their prayers t● heaven by , doe pray in spirit and truth , God bearing them witnesse by the holy Ghost . How can they pray in spirit ( say they ) when they use him not ? what ? Is there no spirit but our owne ? Surely there is a publicke spirit , and a private spirit . The first , hath wrought in the holy saints , and army of martyrs , who have laied up stocks of praier for us generations that follow them : and by the blessed providence of God , they are come into our hands . There wee see how they prayed for us before we were . There we learne to pray of them , of whom the world was not worthy . This spirit we use as well as our owne : and it is pitty that any Christian that can pray to God by his owne dexterity of spirit , should yet contemne the workings , and helpings of the publicke spirit , without whom the world had never had such a benefit . But alasse ( say they ) our spirits are quite stinted when they are fettered with words appointed . Surely , the freedome of spirit stands not so much in freedome of words , and in intention of zeale . As a servant that delivers his masters message in his masters words may doe it with a free spirit : So may a man pray when he takes to himselfe words , and not coines them himself . The best prayers are those that are delivered in Gods words : and are our spirits stinted because we tye our selves to Gods words ? As Gods Spirit is not stinted when it speakes unto us by the Scriptures read : so nor our spirits when wee speake feelingly to God by read Prayers . Put case one man pray with a thousand that have large spirits , will they say that their spirits are stinted because they are tyed up , for the time being , to his spirit ? so nor when wee pray with others Prayers . Have wee a spirit better than the Disciples of Christ ? and doe wee know what will stint them better than Christ ? yet Christ gave them the Lords Prayer not onely to say after that manner , when hee taught the Doctrine of Prayer , but also to say , when hee taught them the practice of Prayer . But ( say they ) hath not God given every good Christian a spirit of supplication , by which they have a faculty and power to pray ? The Disciples ( I hope ) were good Christians , yet they say to Christ , teach us to pray . Yet know that there is a double power to pray : An inward power , by which the heart moves , and goes out of it selfe after God , Christ , grace , and salvation . This power all good Christians have , by the spirit of adoption , whereby they cry Abba , Father . An outward power , whereby they are able distinctly and judiciously to expresse the motions and desires of their hearts . This power all have not , and therefore have neede still to have further helpe and direction , as our Saviour did helpe his Disciples . But surely ( they may say ) the Lords Prayer is not a forme of Prayer taught his Disciples , or us . It is short and imperfect , it hath no such glory in it as some other ; I may think● it , though Christs word be say ▪ and none are tyed to this forme of Prayer alone . Let all this stand till it be removed . It is true it is short , and in that is seene the glorious wisdome of Christ ; but it is most perfect . We must pray all manner of Prayers , Supplications , intercessions , and giving of thankes : yet all these are comprehended in it . Againe , there is infinitely more glory in it then in all Prayers made by men . If all Prayers be made they have their graynes of weight from hence . It briefly comprehends them all , and hath the best authority in the world . The wisdome of God the son of God , the beloved of God made it and expressed it with his tongue , in such blessed order as men & Angels cannot devise the like . It is true that Christ saith , say it : but there is a saying with the mind and heart , as well as with the tongue . For there are two parts of Prayer ; the soule of Prayer , when it is presented with understanding , heart , and spirit : and the body of Prayer to helpe our fervencie ; as when we bowe our knees , lift up our hearts with our hands , and our eyes are lift up to God , and our bones say , Lord who is like unto thee , and our tongues are the pennes of ready writers . Yet hath not Christ tyed us unto this prayer only . Christ himselfe hath other prayers beside this , and the Apostles many , together with the Church , and godly particulars . Yet by reason of the perfection of it both in matter , order , and words : by reason of the sufficiency of it to supply all wants : and by reason of our forgetfulnesse to aske all , or halfe ; it is a sure and comforting way ( what ever wee pray ) to use it alwaies with judgement and understanding . But ( say some of them ) it is of so large extent that wee cannot comprehend it . It is true , that it is of large extent and therefore we must labor for strength of judgmēt , and memory to put it up from the heart , that we may not tumble it over ( as the manner of some is ) as if it burnt their tongues . But Christs lookes not that we should conceive of every thing in it ▪ every time wee use it . As there are few prayers wee can make ▪ but are of larger extent then wee presently conceive , as when we say , the Lord san●tifie your sickenesse unto you , the Lord blesse you , the Lord give you grace , there are more things comprehended then presently meant● so in the Lords prayer ; and therefore wee must have docible hearts to understād it better , & better , and we must have wisedom according to our apprehension , to apply it to severall occasions . But ( say they ) this or any other stinted prayer , are the very cut-throates of devotion , and coolers of affections . Indeed they are so to wicked hearts . Children must bee pleased with novelties , and wicked men loath Gods continued favours , though it bee Mannah from heaven : but if set prayers wrought so of themselves , would Christ ever have given a set forme to his disciples ? Certainely they will be no enemies to devotion , if Christians bee zealous and carefull in using them . For the constant practise of the saints in scriptures commends them unto us in prescribed Psalmes , and formes of blessing . And such is the inequalitie of gifts dispensed by Christ unto his people , that to some a prescribed forme is necessary , when he hath not given them gifts of knowledge , and utterance to expresse their desires in any comely way ; To others necessary too , who are able fitly , and fully to doe it in private , yet are not so faced , and tongued , that they can doe it with confidence in publicke ; to all it is excellently usefull , that they may not onely have helpe of their owne spirits , but of the publick spirit of God working in his church , to advance them forward to heaven . It is a world of pittie , that men that have some great gifts ( as they thinke ) should contemn them that have them not , though haply they have others better then they . To have a gift of expressing our desires in fit order , matter , and words , is a comely ornament , yet may it , and doth often fall upon an hypocrite , it is not of the essence of a saveable Christian● but to say , wee know not what to pray for as we ought , but the spirit helpes me ( publickly and privately ) with groanes and sighes that cannot be expressed , to say thus , I say , and to feele the truth of it too , is a note of a good Christian , and can fall upon none but a childe of the kingdome of heaven . But ( say they ) put case that others may be helped by set formes of prayer , yet is there no reason that a Minister or Presbyter that hath gifts , should bee tied to a forme of words . Neither is he alwaies , but that he should bee tied to common solemne praier , as with us , there is excellent reason for it , as well as in all other reformed Churches , except theirs . First , for uniformity , that all Gods people in our Church might meete at the same time , and put up the same petitions with earnest desires , in the same manner . And is not this a comforting thought , that we have an opener way to heavē made us , by the joint suites of all good English or hearts . Secondly , for memory , that he may not forget the generall necessities of all the Church , and so sticke upon those particulars onely , which are according to his owne feeling . Thirdly , for honour to the blessed saints and martyres whose prayers they were . That as we have had benefit by them , when they were put up to God before , so wee may bring benefit to our selves and others by them , when wee pray them now . Fourthly , for his calling sake . Hee is not immediatly called by God , 〈…〉 & the Church . Therefore as he is called by God , he useth those gifts which hee hath received from God ; as he is called by the Church , he is to use and honour the publicke gifts of the Church , in interpretation , prayer , and the like . What more need bee said to justifie our worship by set formes of prayer , for the present I see not : when I shall , by Gods assistance I shall say more . SECT . 16. The Brownists maine exceptions in their former argument , against our common-prayer booke more specially . THough set formes of publicke pray●r may be lawfull , usefull , commendable , and glorious , yet they say , that our common prayers are not so fit a way to worship God by : nay they say more , that that worship is plainely idolatrous . I am sure that that assertion is weakely superstitious . I would wish them that they be piously carefull , that they speake not evill of that they know not , because they are not careful or willing to know , we ordinarily know unwise young men , when their whose soules live in their affections , to make many objections against many good orders , and lawes , who , when ripenesse , and experience , hath made them see the reasons , have beene ashamed of what they have done : and may it not be so with these men and women ? Howsoever I would intreate them to consider what they may reade in the historie of our Church , that when a godly martyr was reading in a primar of our Church , and came to Lord have mercy upon us , Christ have mercy upon us , an ungodly serving-man , who was set to attend him , blasphemously mocked at it , but hee was strooke madde that night , and dyed miserably . Let them duely consider this , and feare to open their mouthes against any comforts of the godly , and advancement of godlinesse . As for my part , I have reade some liturgies beside our owne , and have heard of others : but ( blessed be God ) I never saw , or heard of any more fully accomplished for the worke in hand . But am I not deceived ? Let us ( in the feare of God ) take a view how it proceeds in all publicke service , and call in along their exception ( which I know ) as we goe along . There is in it first , a preparation to publicke service , and then the service , and worship it selfe . The preparation is by meditation , exhortation , and prayers . The Presbyter , or Deacon , doth in the beginning propound some texts of scripture to be thought upon , that we by their meditation , may draw our selves into the presence of our God to heare and doe . Yea indeed ( say they ) they doe corrupt the text . For though they say , At what time soever a sinner doth repent from the bottome of his heart , God will blot them out of his remembrance , which is not the speech of Ezekiel . I pray is not this the full sense of the Prophet ; made speake to ordinary capacity , if not his words ? Doth he not say , if the wicked will turne ? Is not this equivalent to at what time soever , whether to day , to morrow , or whensoever ? I hope when conditions are performed , God will be as good as his word whensoever . Doth he not say , If they turne from all their iniquities , and keepe all my Statutes ? What is this but repent from the bottome of the heart , and leave no root of bitternesse behind ? Doth he not say , Hee shall live , his sinnes shall not be mentioned unto him ? what is this but I will put them or blot them out of my remembrance ? This is not corruption , I hope , when the Text is plainly expressed in the true sense of it . Secondly , he doth exhort the people according to the Scriptures to confesse their sinnes with a lowly , penitent , and obedient heart , saying after him . By this hee puts them in minde what to doe , namely to confesse their sinnes aright , that their poyson being vomited up , they may the better set themselves to seeke God in the other acts of worship . But ( say they ) what need this , saying after me , seeing the Presbyters Prayer and the peoples Amen is enough . Indeed it is enough to a Prayer , the petitions whereof are not knowne to the people before , such as that of Ezra , and when men exercised their owne gifts for the edification of many . But is it therefore unlawfull for the people to say after their leader when hee prompteth them , or they are taught by the Church ? Doe not all the people , as well as the Presbyter pray to God , and praise God in singing Psalmes ? And I am sure the Word of Christ , which warranteth what is commanded , and what it goeth not against is not against it . It is true , it is uncomely for many mouthes to put up a petition to the King at once : It would confound him whose apprehension and understanding is limited . But it is not so to God who is understanding it selfe , wisdome it selfe , to whom millions sing Psalmes at once , and thousand millions pray to him at once over all the world . Thirdly , he doth pray for and with them , that they may doe as hee exhorted them For first there is the joynt confession of all their unworthinesse , and Prayer to GOD that they may live better in after times . Confession without a purpose to amend does no good : therefore are both united in our good confession . Then doth he ( for their encouragement ) declare and pronounce the absolution and forgivenesse of sinnes to true penitent beleevers according to the Gospel ; and applying it to the people prayes , that upon their repentance , their sinnes being done away , they may doe worthily that service which now they are about . A●d then to supply all defects in all , all pray with one heart , as one man , the Lords Prayer , which is the King of Prayers : and so rise with short and earnest prayers , that they may praise God , and that God would help them ; and with a profession of their faith in the Trinitie , and desire that all glory may bee given unto that blessed three in one . Thus , I am sure , if wee have pious and humble soules , may we be prepared , for the publike worship of God , publikely . Now for the service and worship it selfe , in this good Booke it hath three degrees , the Beginning , Middle , and End of it . In the beginning of it there is reading of Psalmes ▪ principally to raise up our affections , and of other Scriptures both of the Old and New Testament , to confirme our judgements in the truth , and to helpe us to search whether things heard are so or no. There is confession of our faith , that wee may professe it as a briefe rule from Scriptures , to try whether we stand in the faith , whereto we may referre the truths of faith in the Scriptures . And we have Prayers wherein wee are not long at once , or with a breath ; but have distinct and divided salutations , praises and Petitions , for our selves : chiefe members , and the Church , that we may the better hold out unto the end without distractions . All this ( I am sure ) none , if they understand , can justly blame . Onely there is one thing ( worth notice ) which doth hardly relish to some fewe , and can by no meanes be indured by the Brownists , and that is the Litany . This stickes most , because they are more carefull to make objections against it , then answers for it , that they may have comfort and peace with us . Therefore ( with Christs helpe ) I shall indeavour two things ; to shew the reason of the name , and how they may satisfie themselves against such scruples as may arise . It is called a Litany , which is an humble prayer , whose use is most for adversity . It comes of a word that signifies to supplicate , from whence comes suppliant prayers . The ancient Churches were full of them , as I could shew , which usually beganne with Lord have mercy upon us , Christ have mercy upon us ; and why should ours be empty , seeing wee would be accounted as good Christians as they ? There are divers exceptions against ours , therefore let us see next , how they may satisfie themselvs against them . There is no Church that I know , but must have a favourable construction of some things , and so must ou●s ▪ yet in this I see not , but that all excepters may be fully satisfied . The exceptions that I have yet met with , are against the manner of this prayer , and against the matter of it . Against the manner ( they say ) that it is with repetitions of the people , and interlocutary passages . As for that , I finde that in the scriptures God hath commanded publicke prayers , that is , that Presbyter and people should pray : but he hath not commanded any forme , or manner , to carry their prayers in , but onely that it bee done to edification . Therfore he hath left that free to the wisdome and judgement of the governours . And this we have often experience of , that if a continued prayer be but halfe so long , some will bee nodding before it bee done ; whereas if they be kept busie , by the matter in hand , they are more vigilant . But ( say they ) he hath given us the Lords prayer all in one length , and set Amen in the latter end . This is true : yet marke , he said to his disciples , when yee pray , say , Our Father , and Amen too : and hee hath not told them in what manner they should say it when they pray together : whether one should say the Petitions , and the rest , Amen , or whether all should say the Petitions , and Amen too : In this he hath left them to edif●cation , and us also . But ( it is said ) that some parts of the Litany are so said , that the reader shewes onely what they must pray for , and the people make the suite , as when they say from such , and such a thing , good Lord deliver us : and this seemes to bee absurd . That the people should make it without the minister is not injoyned : that the minister doth not intend and make the suite , is false , except hee bee carelesse , and wicked . As the people say Amen aloude ; and the minister saith it too , though happly not so loude : so the minister intends , and saith , Good Lord deliver us , though the people in turnes , exceede in voice . Against the matter of this prayer , many things are objected , few things weighed , and nothing proved , but evident quarrels . There are exceptions against words and phrases ; and against suites conveyed in them . The wordes and phrases are , by thy crosse , and passion , by thy pretious death , &c. Which some of them , out of the le●ity of minde , call conjuring ; some , out of worse , cal swearing , as if none could out sweare the Litany . Let them take heede how they blaspheme the piety of Gods servants . It was none of Elies goodnesse , when hee reproached the prayers of Hannah ; as if shee were drunke when shee made them . Let them apply this to themselves . It will not be denied but that Christ brought us a great benefit by all these . For what hee did as a publicke person , hee did for us and our salvation , in one degree or other . Now , what is this , but a praying that all these acts , and passions of Christ , in their vertue and merit bee applyed to us by Gods love , that wee may finde the profit of them ? But now the suites that wee convey in the words of that good Prayer are troublesome to them , both when we sue for things , and Persons , As for things , wee pray against two things which they doe not like , against sudden death , and against the sinnes of our forefathers . As for the first , there is a double sudden death : sudden in time , and sudden for want of preparation . God hath said , that hee will come before that wee are aware , like a thiefe in the night . His will bee done : wee pray not against that . But wee pray that his comming may not be so sudden , but that through wisdome given , we may set our houses in order , and bee as the wise virgines having our lampes and oyle in a readinesse : and from such sudden death good Lord deliver us . As for the sinnes of our forefathers ( which being dead are now out of the state of forgivenesse ) wee pray not that their sinnes bee forgiven them , but that they bee not remembred to be punished in us . God punisheth to the third and fourth generation : and the Psalmist saith , Let the iniquitie of his fathers be remembred before the Lord , and let not the sinne of his mother be blotted out , that their posterity bee cut off , and in the generations following their names bee blotted out . And because these comminations have conditions of Repentance annexed to them , doe not wee well to repent , and cry to God , remember not the iniquity of forefathers , for feare of those sinnes that have gone before us . But yet they like not the Persons that we pray for , when wee say , that God would have mercy upon all men . For Christ saith , he prayed not for the world : but our Church cares not whom they pray for . Indeed , because wee finde that wee have a Precept , pray for all men , and an holy practise , Let the People praise thee O God , let all the People praise thee , therefore wee doe as wee are bound in praying for all men . Yet doe not wee pray for the world , but against it that we may follow Christ . Christ prayed for the Jewes and Gentiles that persecuted him to death , father forgive them , for they know not what they doe : yet he prayes not for the world that lies in wickednesse , but that it come out , and serve God : so wee pray once more against their wickednesse , but wee pray for their Persons . As farre as our charity tends , so farre our Prayers extend ; and I am sure wee must doe good to all . But if God shall reveale any speciall Persons that have sinned unto death , wee will not pray for them . In the meane time , give us leave ( if you have so much charity ) to pray that there may bee none such . Yea , but ( say they ) wee pray in that Litany , for all that travaile by land , or by water , and so for thieves , and pyrats too , yea , and I know not for what , Devills in mens braines , who compasse the earth too and fro . Where is their charity ? The pious Church provideth a Prayer for Men and not for Devils , who are out of hope , and out of all Communion with her : and for all men that are within a saveable condition in that word , Our Father . So shee prayes for theeves and pyrats to make them better , or else against them , to maintaine Gods just providence in their future punishments . If these bee all their exceptions against our good Litany , as they are all I have heard , I hope they will give me leave to use it as I doe , and use it with me in peace . The second degree of our Church worship is the middle of it , when wee reade the commandements of our great God with Prayer , when we read the Epistles and Gospels , more fully to strengthen our faith , and pray for the whole Church . In the first , they doe except that we kneele when the commandements are reade , as if it were a Prayer . Noe : wee doe it not to make it a Prayer : it is none . But yet wee doe it , partly to testifie our subjection to the God that gave it , as the People on mount Sinai fell downe at the publication of it , and as wee kneele before the King : and partly , because it is joyned with that submissive Prayer , Lord have mercy upon us , and incline our hearts to keepe this law . Next come the Epistles ( as indeede the whole word is an Epistle written to our soules ) : wherein wee have sometimes prayers , but mostly fit rules of holinesse of life : and after the Gospels , that wee may know the benefits of which we must live worthy . These strengthen our faith in all the articles , and further our thankfulnesse for all Gods mercies by Christ and his Apostles . I know nothing worth notice that is heere excepted against . If they call them shreads of scripture , yet they are scriptures , and fit texts applyed to every season . And if Christ would not onely preach truths , but fit truths for the people : and if they themselves ( I hope ) will choose fit texts for feasts , and fasts , times of solemnity , and times of mourning , I hope also that the Church cannot bee denyed this liberty . If they say , they are applyed to divers holidayes which are not of Christs appointment . Yet are they not without Christs leave and permission . If Christ have permitted them ( though God saith , six daies thou shalt labour ) yet to use their liberty according to discretion , upon any of the six to refresh themselves , or spend in holy exercises ; is he an harder master , yea husband unto his Church ? Surely , as occasion is offered , they may choose any fit dayes either to feast , or to fast . But alasse ( say they ) all this , in that common-prayer booke is but an English masse , taken out of the masse-booke of Rome . Belike then wee had it out of the Temple of God , where that man of sinne sitteth , well : bee it so . A thiefe hath got a true mans purse , may not Justice deliver it to him againe , and leave the thiefe to his Judge and punishment ? Such is our case . The Pope could not have hid himselfe so long , but under the banner of Christ , and the service of God with the Saints . Therefore hee gets the Leitourgy , or common-prayer booke of the blessed Fathers , and adds to it of his owne rubbish , as Masses for quicke and dead , Dirges , Requiems , Praying to Saints and ANGELS , blessing of Bells and Candles , to give power to drive away Devils . When this was espyed , by the breaking out of the beames of the glorious Gospel , the blessed Martyres challenge their owne , and leave the wicked trash to the founder . And is not this Justice ? If these men had gold and silver mingled with durt , and poyson , would they cry out , all durt , all poyson , and worke for more ? No : they would wash , cleanse , purifie , and keepe the gold and silver for their uses . So have we done , and noe more . Wee have taken off the spots , and keepe the garments , We have washed away the filth , from the gold of the first great Saints and Martyres . If this bee a fault , wee rejoyce in it , and commend to others , as Doctour Rowland Taylour when hee was going to be burned , next unto the Bible , the Service-booke , to bring up our children in the feare of God. And so I passe that . The last degree is the end of our common-prayer worship , which is the administration of Sacraments . The wit of Men and Angels cannot devise a better way of GODS worship in them . Such grave exhortations , effectuall Prayers , propounding of warrants , laying downe of promises , confident expectations of their making good by Christ , to Children , Parents , and all penitent and believing Christians , are there upon record , that a modest man would wonder how any exceptions could be found out . Yet three things are there that much trouble them , and us by them . 1 Kneeling at the Communion . 2 Crosse in Baptisme , and 3 The responses , or answeres in Baptisme . As for kneeling , I shall indeavour ( with Gods helpe ) to doe two things : shew that they may lawfully worship God in the use to this Sacrament , kneeling ; and take away their maine rubs in the way . That which is for Christ they may lawfully doe : but kneeling at the Sacrament is for Christ : for what is not against him , is for him . If it bee against him , let them shew where hee hath forbidden it . If they cannot , they may lawfully kneele . Againe , that which is neither commanded nor forbidden by God , they may lawfully doe ( for the Apostle saith of such things , all things are lawfull ) yea they must necessarily doe it now , not out of conscience to the gesture , but out of conscience to the command of our Christian King and Church : But kneeling at the Communion is neither commanded nor forbidden by God , but commanded by the King and Church : therefore they may , they must kneele . Againe , if they kneele not , but sit , as an act of Religion , they make it essentiall to the supper , and the Apostle Paul an unfaithfull servant to so good a Master . For hee saith that what he received of the Lord he delivered unto them : but he doth not speake one word of the gesture . Therefore sitting is no act of Religion , the gesture is left to the Church , they may kneele , or Paul is unfaithfull . Lastly , if they kneele not , they bring juster censures upon themselves then they can give to us that kneele , which they are bound to avoid . As they be justly charged first to worship God by the will of man , and so in vaine ▪ For to place a worship of God in sitting or standing rather then in kneeling , is a worship of God by the will of man , because they have no such warrant from God. Secondly , they be justly charged to adde to , or take from the Word , and so to corrupt it : For all impositions upon the conscience , which God hath not warranted are such additions . But such are these new traditions , as kneele not , but stand or sit , touch not , taste not , which things perish with the using . Thirdly , they are justly charged to have communion with the worst hereticks . For Arrians doe directly deny the Divinity of Christ , and to professe themselves to doe it , they will not kneele at the Communion of the blessed Body and Bloud of Christ , but sit . These charges they lay upon us , but more justly they lye upon themselves : because we make not kneeling an act of worship from men , or an addition to the Word , but onely an act of good order , to witnesse our reverence to God , who is pl●ased to give us such a pledge of his love . How they will answer these things to God , I know not . They either cannot , or will not answer them to me , onely they put in their plea against kneeling in the act of receiving , which I shall now labour to remove . They mainly urge the example of Christ , that he and his Disciples sat at the supper . But all the world is not able to prove that they sat at the delivering and receiving of the Bread and Cup. Hee sate down indeed with them , but then hee tooke , he blessed , hee brake , he gave : what gesture hee used in blessing they cannot tell . Certainely if according to Scripture examples , hee either kneeled or stood : then whether after his blessing they sate downe againe , let them tell me . Never let them dreame that hee sate as a shadow of rest in heaven : for let them shew that Christs pleasure was to ordaine shadowes in the New Testament when the body was come , and Canaan , that old shadow was to be cursed ; or if hee did , I le tell them that Paul was an unfaithfull servant , that would not teach that shadow to the Corinthians , to whom he professeth to deliver what he received . But grant that Christ did sit ; what hee occasionally did , is no example to binde us to doe the like : but as by occasion hee administred at night , after supper , with unlevined bread ; so hee might occasionally sit according to the ceremony of the Jewish Church at the Passeover . Besides if they would sit because Christ sate , they must sit as hee did , or else they doe not imitate Christ : but Christ might sit a sacrifice way , or lying along , and leaning , which they doe not observe . But put case they sit not in every point like Christ , yet they tell us of the fitnesse of this gesture , to signifie our fellowship with Christ on earth and in heaven . Th● they will ordaine a significant ceremony against us , but not for us . And in truth , they dreame so much of fellowship with Christ , that they forget him to be their Soveraigne King and Lord , and so are too sawcie with him . But for the Table gesture , will they have all other formalities , at a Table , fit for the Table of the Lord ? I● not , why must this alone be fit , when Christ hath no said so ? Besides , if Table gesture be urged , Christs example doth not binde . For his was not a common Table gesture , but onely used at sacrifices and sacred Feasts , when they did discumbe or lye along . Had Christ told us that this was the fittest gesture we should have rested in his pleasure : but he having left it at liberty , and even common understanding judging of it fittest to receive a seale of a pardon upon the knee , as the greatest signe of thankfulnesse used for such a favour why wee should not take it up , wee cannot yet see . Yea but ( say they ) we doe not only looke to the fitnesse of sitting , but to the beginning of kneeling : It was begun by a wicked Pope in honour of the breaden God : and therefore not to be continued by us . Put case this plea were true , yet that which was misapplied to the honour of a creature , may ( I hope ) be rightly applied to the honour of our God ; for else no man may sit : because the accursed Arrians have brought in this sitting at the Sacrament to dishonour Christ : And the Pope seconds them , who sits then in state to advance himselfe above all Gods people , both Kings and beggars . But the truth is , that no Pope brought in kneeling in the act of receiving . It was brought in by him indeed at the Elevation , and when the Sacrament was carried in procession , but not as we doe use it . They have no Law ( that I could ever yet read of ) save onely for the Pope himselfe to receive it sitting , but onely the Law of Custome and Convenience to receive it kneeling . Put case all this bee true ; yet ( say they ) the use of kneeling stickes with them They doe not know why they should kneele now , seeing kneeling is a part of GODS worship , or a signe of it . It is no part of Gods worship , or signe of it in it selfe : for then wee might not use it in civill , or ordinary things . Indeede wee are exhorted to it ) which shewes the lawfulnesse of it , as wee are , to praise GOD in the dance , and to clap our hands : but there is no Precept which bindes it to GOD alone . The Servants of GOD have sometimes stood , and sometimes sate reverendly before the LORD , and sometimes laine along , that GOD might have his worship in all gestures left free to the users . But why should they speake of worship heere , when wee neither require kneeling , to worship the consecrated Bread by , no nor him that doth administer the Sacrament , but to testifye our humble thankefulnesse to GOD for our pardon sealed . There remaines now nothing of worth under this head , but their readie obedience , when GOD shall humble their mindes , and quiet their hearts , that they may live in peace , and worship with us . The second and third things that trouble them , are in our Baptisme : and are the Crosse in Baptisme , and the Respon●es , or Answeres of the Godfathers and Godmothers in the childes name . As for the Crosse , I wondred alwayes that private persons should once name it , seeing it concernes the consciences of us that administer , not of infants that receive it , who by it are made neither better , nor worse . They are but seers , and sufferers in it , not doers of it . If therefore wee can satisfie our selves in the doing of it , that wee may preach IESUS CHRIST unto them in the Churches peace , they have cause to thanke us , and to thanke GOD for pacifying our consciences for their good , and not cry out against us , and runne away from us . O but they cannot abide to see that idolatrous and abominable Crosse to passe over poore Childrens faces , without either reason , or religion . There is reason for it ; because it depends upon the commands of superiours , and reason wills that they bee obeyed in lawfull and possible things . There is Religion for it ; because it is but a ceremony testifying our communion with the primitive CHVRCH which gloryed in , and was persecuted for the Crosse of CHRIST : and good Religion hath never beene against such things . As to testifie Communion with believing Iewes , even the Gentiles abstained from stranguled and bloud : so to testifie our Communion with the believing Gentiles of old , wee retayne that signe still , which they used in the face of their Persecutours , to signifie that they were ready to confesse that LORD who dyed for them on the Crosse . What though the Church of ROME did afterwards fearefully abuse it , yet it is ( certainely ) to us neither abominable , not idolatrous . Wee use it not as a signe from GOD to men , as the Sacraments are : nor as a signe from Men to GOD , as bowing in Prayer● is : but as a signe from Men to Men , as that old kisse of love . For as that did signifie Christian concord and agreement : so this , our hope if the Childe lives , that it will fight under the banner of CHRIST ; therefore if the Childe bee ready to dye , this signe ( by good order ) is omitted ? The Church of ROME useth it , both for Consecration , Benediction , and Operation effective of I know not what feates : but wee use it to none of these purposes . If it bee sayd that the Child by that badge is dedicated to GODS service in our use of it , as the CANON runnes : yet the sence must not bee contrary to the commanded use . Therefore as wee are sayd to wed with a ring , which is nothing but a declaring of a marriage knot , by giving and receiving of a ring , and by joyning of hands : and as the Priest was said to cleanse the leaper by the appointed meanes , when hee did onely declare and pronounce him to bee cleane : so the Crosse is no dedicating signe , for that is done in Baptisme , which receives it into the Congregation of CHRISTS flocke , but onely declares , to the hope of the CHURCH , that it shall so live to CHRIST . I see not but this may satisfie the soule of any good Christian ( knowing what I said before of ceremonies ) concerning the use of the Crosse in our good Church . As for the Godfathers and Godmothers answering in the name of the childe , though it seeme unreasonable to them , yet is there excellent reasons for it . They know there were questions and answeres in Philips baptizing of the Eunuch , which hath ever beene continued in the Church because of the covenant in Baptisme . And though infants cannot answer , yet are there three reasons why their sureties should . The first is ecclesiasticall , the second civill , and the third divine . The Church reason is , because it might put the whole congregation in minde of what was done by them : when they were baptized , they entered covenant with God. As the Prophet spake to the dead altar to admonish living Ieroboam , O Altar , Altar , heare the word of the Lord : so doe wee to infants to admonish all that heare ●t . The Civill reason is , because by the 〈◊〉 of Guardianship , the Guardian answeres for the Pupil under their charge ; and by this , takes upon him an obligation of dut● his power , and promise of faithfulnesse ▪ as hee can : and what he doth , stands in law as his pupils act . Now , because our sureties in Baptisme are such , therefore they answere for children , and what they doe professe to doe , is accounted the infants act , to which hee is bound , as wee see in the civill covenant betwixt David and Ionathan , and their seedes for ever . The Divine reason is , because in the very substance of Baptisme , which is a signe and seale of the covenant of grace , there is an interrogation on GODS part for repentance , and beliefe of the GOSPEL , and on our parts a repromission or answere of a good conscience , which is opened and expounded by these questions and answeres . If notwithstanding these reasons they seeme yet to bee unreasonable ; it is enough they know them , and they must stand , till they can from sound grounds overthrow them from the word of Christ . Thus ( by GODS blessing ) I have finished the three grounds upon which our forsakers leave us : and ( I hope ) I shall satisfie them in this , that wee have a true CHURCH , a true MINISTERY , a true WORSHIP , and that they ( for any thing I know ) have no just cause to say otherwise . If yet they persevere and multiply scandal , and schisme , they must once againe remember the blessed wordes wee beganne with , Not forsaking the assembling of our selves together , as the manner of some is , but exhorting one another : and so much the more as yee see the day approaching . SECT . 17. The use to bee made of the constancy of some , and forsakings of o●her : consideration , exhortation , because the day is approaching . IT is the course of too many to cleave to the assemblies , but they are never the better . They onely stand to outward profession , but grow not in grace and the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Iesus Christ . Hence is it , that if never so many of them stand , they cannot incourage them : nor if never so many fall away , they cannot wisely consider them , and exhort unto faithfulnesse . Therefore the Apostle would have us such knowing , and wise Christians , by the helpe of publicke assemblies , that wee may wisely consider one another , and weightily exhort one another , that wee may keepe one another in sound knowledge and pious practise . There are three things which wee shoud consider in our selves ; our aptnesse to fall , the difficulty of our standing , and our love to that way which is most dangerous . Though God set us not justly in slipperie places , yet are apt to slide away continually . Wee carry about with us the foolish and unwise flesh , which makes us unwarie , and so we are soone caught in a deceitfull net . There are questing snares of gaine , and questioning snares or frivolous and idle things which end in noyse and tumult without profit : and thus wee are apt to fall . We as hardly keepe our standings , we are children , and doe not play the men . We are a mixture of weakenesse , and must have Gods good spirit lead us , or downe wee goe . Satan is principality and power , by whom the winde rises , and the rayne falls , and the flouds come , and then our house , if it bee not strongly founded goes to wrack . That little strength wee have is apt to false us , by faith wee stand , and still there is something lacking to our faith . And thus it comes that wee hardly keepe our feete steady . Wee are also too much in love with that way that hath most danger in it . The spirit is willing , but the flesh is weake , and is ready to eate poyson for wholesome foode ; sometimes out of custome , sometimes out of curiositie , and sometimes out of an ill appetite wee have got to unwholesome things . But if wee doe wisely consider these things in one another , wee will bee full of compassion . And as they that consider not are full of fierce and fiery censure , as Iudah to Tamar , bring her forth and let her be burnt , not considering his owne guilt : so they that doe it , are led by the contrary spirit . As when wee consider a man aloft , who totters , is apt to fall , and unable to keepe his feete in a setled posture , our bowels yearne , our flesh drops feare , and wee are out of our selves with sudden apprehension : so is it with a man that considers his brother ; hee puts him on by fellow feeling . Yea then wee will prudently deale one with another to keep up . As wee see dispositions , gifts , vertues or faults , wee wisely fore-thinke , how to maintaine the best , and prevent the worst . Besides , this considering brings us to Pauls rule , If a brother fall by infirmity , ( not by pride and selfe conceit ) restore him with the spirit of meekenesse ; with a tender heart and hand , set him in joynt againe . For want of this consideration too many Christians are ready to faile . The frailety of the flesh , the opposition of grace is little considered , and so there is neither wisedome , compassion , or meeknesse to heale . Men difference not stubborne faylers , for whom there is a rod of iron ; and weake failers , for whom there is a Spirit of meekenesse . Men discerne not sinners of custome , who are as blacke-moores and sinners overtaken , who with stripes must not bee driven quite away , and so doe more hurt than good . But bee more wise to consider hereafter than before . This moved Paul to say , Hee that stands , let him take heed lest hee fall . This moved Iohn to say , little children , keepe your selves from Idols . Yea this mooved CHRIST to say , When thou art converted , strengthen thy brethren . Out of such consideration , I have laboured to give this revalsion and Antidote . And if our forsakers had had it too , it might have saved mee a labour , and they might with it have had more wisdome , meeknesse , and compassion , and lesse heart-dividing censures . The Apostle would have us also make such use of publike assemblies that wee may exhort one another . Hee knowes that it is a great worke to continue in love to God , his truth , and Saints , and in good workes . Pride is one of the last sinnes that dye . It is like a man of a strong heart which hardly yeelds ; his heart is more in compasse than another mans . It will worke it selfe out of lesse sinne and more grace : and where pride is , there is contention : and so lesse truth and love . Againe , superfluity of maliciousnesse drownes the whole nature of man. Even when the head floates with Christ , the heart is too much drencht in this . It is crossed , and will crosse againe , like the devils cocke , to spurre all opposites : and hence also comes losse of truth and love . Againe , the spirit of a man lusteth after envy . This makes the eye evill because God is good . It desires to bee in the uppermost forme , like the two sonnes of Zebedeus . Therefore Ioseph , the reformed Prodigall , and the last workers in the Vineyard are grumbled at : and hence also is lesse truth and love . Lastly , truth and love enter at a narrow passage , and Christ comes not with all his mighty power at first . As the Sea is not sifted thorow the narrow crevises of the earth at once : so is it with truth and love . And as a Conquerour , that leaves most of his Armie behinde him , subdues not presently : so it is with Christ and us . Wee are not able to receive his truth and love together , neither stands it with his dispensation , wee being not extraordinary , but ordinary servants , who must attaine by industry . Hence therefore men dreaming that they have attained , when there is much behind , doe ill use what truth and love they have , and so faile foulely . Neither is it lesse difficult to continue in good workes . The fountaine is apt to be dry , that is , a good heart . If out of the belly doe not flow rivers of waters of life , no waters will runne to the living . How soon is this streame dryed up , because men live not with Christ the spring-head ? Besides , men are not altogether for gathering this worlds goods to spend it upon their lusts . They forget that there is a time to scatter , and then they cast not their bread upon the waters , they beleeve not that they shall finde it so . Lastly , men have three bad thoughts that keepe them from good workes . They thinke that no man is more worthy to have then themselves . Some are wicked and not worthy : some are good , yet themselves are better : some are idle and will live upon the spoile : and some are painefull , and therefore the better able to provide for themselves : still selfe is thought to be the onely man to have . They thinke themselves againe the absolute owners of what they have . It is their owne , as Nabal said , why should they give it to others ? This they willingly thinke not , that they are stewards , and so are kept backe . Lastly , they thinke this worlds goods the onely commanders of men and things : and therefore they will not put themselves out of them that they may rule all . Now , because it is so difficult a work , not only to continue in good works , but in truth and love which must make them excellent : therefore the Apostle would have us so improve our selves by the fellowship of publike assemblies that we may be able to exhort one another . Such is the inconstancie of nature in all good courses , that it is easily apt to change from good to worse . Moses was but a while gone , and Israel fell to idolatry . Paul wondred that the Galathians were so soone turned to another Gospel . Yea such is our slownesse in good , that we had need be spurred continually . Ephesus forsakes her first love : Yea and when Christs hearers heard , they must be exhorted to heare : and when the Thessalonians did edifie one another they must bee exhorted to doe it . Men are in a dead sleepe , and they are loth to be awaked as the sluggard : they thinke themselves able to exhort themselves , they love not many masters , they see not how frozen they are , till their owne hearts smite them , as Davids , till God raise up some adversary to reproach them , or till God take them in hand himselfe by some heavie visitation . Therefore saith Paul , exhort one another . Oh that wee could alwayes walk in the presence of this duty , and suffer the words of exhortation too . The wicked will call one upon another to goe to hell , why should not we to get one another towards heaven . But how our forsakers will answer it to God I know not , who cast themselves out of our assemblies in folly , before they are cast out in justice , and forgoe this whetstone of exhortation , for a blunt sticke of their owne devising . This I am sure , they might be exhorted with us , and learne to exhort others better from us then they doe , to leade poore soules into the wayes of discord , distraction , and strife . I have but one thing to thinke upon this text more , and that is Pauls motive and inforcement ( so much the more because ye see the day approaching ) men complaine much of dayes , and times ▪ but I am sure , the worse they are the more had they neede to keepe the communion of Saints both publicke , and private . Evill dayes will come fast enough , no man had neede to pull them upon himselfe . If hee doe , there is ( the day ) comming which will pay to the purpose ( without a pardon ) for all his sinnes and indiscretions . All other dayes are our dayes , in which wee eate , drinke , marrie , give in marriage , work , play , pray , and heare , and the like : but this is the day , with GODS marke upon it , when all shall bee awaked and gathered before their JUDGE . The thought of this day should sharpen us to love assemblies , and call others to them , because they are the ordinances of CHRIST the JUDGE ▪ On this day there will bee fulnesse of feares and terrours . Fearefull sights of an universall fire , throne , and JUDGE : fearefull yellings and cryings of desperate men : fearefull accusations from heaven , earth , and consciences ; and the fearefullest sentence that ever yet passed , Goe yee cursed . Therefore had wee neede all our lives to get something to comfort us against that time , for it is an evill time to the wicked . On that day will there bee an expectation of comfort , or discomfort , for ever , and ever , upon all that wee have done , either in our assemblies , or out of them . On that day wee shall heare such accounts as wee have never heard , as how wee have willfully sinned in every secret . In the secret of our understanding , will , affections , judgements , consciences , corners , woods , and denns ? How many assemblies wee have neglected ? How many wee have prophaned , in being no better ? How many in our power wee have not exhorted ? How many have exhorted us , and wee have not answered and followed ? On that day shall I bee judged if I have taught you to acknowledge our CHURCH a true CHURCH , our MINISTERY a true MINISTERY , and our WORSHIP a true WORSHIP , against my judgement and conscience according to the rule of CHRIST so farre as I am come , yea , and I shall bee cast also . And on that day , shall our forsakers escape scotfree ? shall they not passe a strickt triall and examination ? Have yee had a care to keepe a Christian state to CHRISTS honour ? Have yee loved publicke assemblies to that end and use ? Have yee not forsaken the assemblies of CHRISTS people for no just cause ? Is not that a true church which professeth the name of Christ according to his word , whereto it submits as the rule of the religion it hath ? Is not that a true Church which enters covenant with mee , as all the Christians in the World by entring into my schoole by Baptisme ? Is not that a true Church which acknowledgeth mee onely head for supreame rule , and under mee my liefetenants and chiefe officers , to governe according to my lawes general , and speciall ? Is not that a true Church which rejoyceth in good members , yet dare not forbid wicked hypocrites from the outward priviledges of my feast , because I have commanded her that good and bad should bee called ? Is not that a true Church which hath the power of governement in best and wisest , when I never commanded that whole assemblies should ever have an independent power to doe according to voyces , which cannot but bee the authour of schisme ? Is not that a true Church which doth exercise governement according to my patternes and rules , ins●rting things in order , ordaining teachers , and casting out unworthy beasts , as information , and conviction could bee justly had ? Have you forsaken such a Church , to set up a Church of your owne devising , which hath never beene from my time downeward ; to ordaine Pastours and Doctours that are not able to divide the word of God aright ; to cast out , or keepe in according to the voyces of two , or three men or women , which may out of selfe-conceit , and pretence of my word , presume to bee a Church contrary to my will ? What Ministery have you forsaken ? A ministery that hath beene honoured by the bloud of blessed martyrs : that are no wooden Priests , but whose breath hath blowne away Romish tyranny , idolatrie , superstitions , and falsities , which dishonoured mee and my offices ; a ministery that hath gained soules from heathenisme , and prophanenesse in their turnes , and moved ( by my blessing ) effectually to serve the living and true God , even to thousands , and millions ? What worship have you forsaken ? a worship of praying and receiving of Sacraments with my word , with petitions , supplications , intercessions , and giving of thankes to my father in my name ? Have yee forsaken such a worship , and all because every one that goe before in worship have not their tongues at liberty to say what they list , but are helped by the publicke spirit of my Church , so as they may with one heart and mouth at one time , when I have no where commanded the contrary ? Oh let this Terrour of the Lord perswade men . A thousand yeares with Christ are but as one day ; for the Iudge standeth at the doore : and when hee doth come , thinke what praise and honour ye shall get by disturbing a Church where is a true Ministery , and worship , by disheartning of Gods tender people from his service , under pretence of his word , when for none of your fancies you can produce one precept of Christ . The most you pretend are obscure places ( which by the diligentest searchers of scriptures have beene and are diversly expounded , and therefore no sure footing ) or some obscure examples without lawes ; which yet , if they were never so pregnant , prove but the lawfulnesse , not the necessitie of such practises . And will you hazard the peace of a Christian Church , the comfort of your consciences , the liberty of your goods , and bodies , upon so sandy a foundation . Oh thinke upon that day , and take wiser mens advice then your selves that have not beene carried with rashnesse , puffed with pride , in love with a conceit of selfe-government , or pricked with envies , emulations , jealousies , just punishments , and see whether such men will warrant your courses upon the price of their soules in that day . And if all candor bee not banished , if hatred to an English Priest , a Bishops creature ( as some body is termed ) have not put out the eies of wisedome and charity , doe but reade what heere in all humble love , and without bitternesse of language is presented unto you . Read it as in the sight and presence of God. See that my hearts desire is that you may have comfort with us , and that heereafter you may bee saved without needing repentance for this your unwise and unwarranted way . If it doe not ( except you outface light ) satisfie you ; in the maine it will burne like stubble , chaffe , and straw , in the day of Christ . But if it doe , and yet ( out of a thought of what a brave thing it is to cast downe the governement of others , that you may governe your selves , and then call it Christs ) and yet ( I say ) will not follow it , then That day approacheth , and I send you over to him , to doe with you according to his pleasure , yet with hearty and humble prayers for the saving of your misse-led Soules . FINIS . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A19569-e1570 Mat. 6.21 Psal . 103.4 Heb. 10.19 20. Col. 2.9 . Heb. 10.21 Act. 20.28 Ioh. 14. Col. 3.11 . Heb. 10.22 Heb. 10.23 Apoc. 3.11 Eph. 6. ● Pet. 1.5 Heb. 10.24 Rom. 8. Iud. 5.15 Iam. 2.5 . 2 Pet. 1.1 1 Tim. 2.4 Tit. 1.4 . Iude 3. Ps . 122.1 . Psal . 42.4 Ps . 84.10 Ioel 2.28 Act. 2.17 Es . 2.3 . Mic. 4. Eph. 5 . 2● . 2 Pet. 5 5 1 Pet. 2.13 1 Pet. 5.5 Es . 49.23 Mat. 18.10 Zach. 8.22.23 . Ex. 26 1 1 Kin. 6.29 1 Cor. 11.10 1 Pet. 1.23 Phil. 2.13 Lam. 2.19 Rom. 4.11 Acts 7. Apoc. 1.13 Es . 59.21 2 Cor. 3.8 9. Psal . 23 ▪ 6 Psal . 57.7 Eph. 1.3 Luk. 10.18 Iosh . 6. Es 59.21 Ioh. 16.13 Eph 4 13 Gal. 2. Gal. 2.14 Pro. 8.34 Psal 80.2 Psal . 42.2 Ezech. 13 22 ▪ Ier , 23 , 14. Object . Sol. Iam. 1.21 Act. 10.33 Psal . 5.7 Es . 2 , 3. Ps . 119 , 34. Luke 18 , Psal . 25 9. Luke 1 , Iam , 1. Luke 1 , Psal ▪ 86 , 4. Zach. 8 ▪ 21 Es . 42.8 Ps . 110.3 Zach. 5.7 Ezech. 2.3 5. Ezech. 3.14 . Ps . 29.1 , 2 Luk. 10 ▪ 16 August . Ego te non deputabo inter Christianos , nisi in ecclesia te videro . Ps . 35.18 Psal . 87.2 Apoc. 3.2 . Ioel. 2 , 15 16. Matth. 5 2 Chto . 6 13 , 2 King 11 ▪ 14. Hos . 4.15 Ex. 23.2 1 Cor , 10 8. Num. 25 9. Psal . 84 Pro 8.17 Act , 10.33 Ioh. 5 Psal . 110.3 Pro. 8.33 Ezech. 4 10. Act. 13.43 Luk. 1.21 Numb . 6.24 , 25 , 26 ▪ Es . 52.11 . ● Cor. 6.17 Novatus rerum novarum sēper cupidus , arrogantiâ inflatus , episcopis male cognitus , &c. C●ipri . In cōmunione sacramentorum mali maculant bonos . Quid Imperatori cū ecclesia ? Sacramēta sancta & efficacia quando per sanctos homines . Circumcelliones . Lucifer stomachabundus discessit ab Eusebio : et qui se illi conjunxerūt ab ecclesia ipsi se segregarunt Vituperabant episcopos , divites , ipsos appelantes . Quòd in ecclesia ferrentur faeneratores & impuri . Anthropomorphi●ae . Matth. 13 ▪ Gal. 6. 1 Cor. 13. The issue of this discourse . Matth. ●6 . Object . Sol. Object . Sol. Act. 2. Act. 10. Matth. 16 Object . Sol. Object . Sol. 2 Pet 1.19 1 Cor. 2.5 Levit. 20.24 . 1 Kin. 8.53 Numb . 14 2● . 35 . Deut ▪ 9.6 , 7 , 8. Act 19.9 . Act. 26.22 23. 2 Cor. 6.17 ver . 14 , 15 ▪ 16 Tit. 1 , 15 , 16. 1 Cor. 1 ▪ 2 4.9 , 30 ▪ 1 Cor , 3.23 1 Cor. 4 , 15 1 Cor. 9.2 1 Cor. 11.2 2 Cor. 7.11 12 , 13. 1 Cor. 5.1 Eph. 5 . 1● 2 Cor. 6 ▪ 14 , 15 , 16. Act. 8.13.37 , 38. 1 Cor. 3.3 1 Cor. 6. 1 Cor. 8. 1 Cor. 10. 1 Cor. 11. & 15. 1 Cor. 5. 1 Cor. 1.2 Heb. 10.29 Object . Sol. Eph ▪ 1.23 . Ioh. 15.2 1 Cor. 12 12 ▪ 1 Cor. 1.30 Act. 7.51 Eph. 4 30 1 Thes ▪ 5.19 . Heb. 10 , 29 Psal . 147. Object . Sol. Gal. 3.17 Rom. 6. Psal . 78.10 37. Luk. 1.17 Ioh. 14. 1 Cor. 1.30 What Browne meane by a true church . Act. 7.38 Object . Sol. Luk. 3.2 . Heb , 7. 1 Sam. 15. 1 Tim. 3.15 Tit. 1.5 1 Sam. 2.29.12 . Ex. 32.11 . Ex. 22.16 Es . 1.2 , 3 Es . 1.10 ▪ 23 Es . 3.12.16 Es . 5.8 Es . 24 ● Es . 1.21 22 29. 1 Cor. 1.2 2 Cor. 12 20.21 . Apoc. 2 & 3. Object . Sol. Ex. 18.19 Deut. 31.9 28. Act , 14.23 Act. 2● ▪ 17 Act. 21.18 23. Ob●ect . Sol. Act. ●5 . ●● 23. Sub conscientia plebis . Matth. 18 19 , 20. Mat. 16.19 Io● . 20 , 21 22 , 23. Eph. 4 ▪ 11 12. 2 Cor. 5.20 . Neh. 13.11 17. Apoc. 2 ▪ & 3. Ro 13.1 2 3. 1 Pet. 2.13 14. Tit. 2.1 Heb. 13.8 17. 1 Tim. 5 17. Numb . 16 Matth. 18 1 Cor. 5 Mar. 13.34 2 Cor. 10.8 1 Tim. 3.15 Object . Apoc. 1.6 Sol. 1 Ioh. 2 2 Pet. 2 Psal . 130.3 Gal. 2.14 1 Cor. 14.1 ver . 29. ver . 3. Mat. 28.18 Mar. 16.15.6 . Object . Sol. Ro. 12.4 , 6 Heb. 5.4 2 Tim. 2 13. 1 Tim. 4.13 . What a true visible church is . Act. 9.31 Ap. 2 , & 3 ▪ Act. 14.23 . Rom. 16.5 1 Cor. 16.19 . Tit. 1.5 . Act. 15.19 Act. 15. Phil. 1.1 . Mat. 9 36. Eph. 2. Rom 10. Act. 8. Act 13. Act. 20 1 Cor. 1. ● Gal. 2 Act. 8 Matth. 22 Matth. 25 Mat. 13.2 3. &c. Mat. 13.24 25. &c. Deus nobis imperavit congregatioonem , sibi servavit separationem . August . Mat. 13.47 48. &c. Act. 2.41 Apoc. 2.1 . Matth. 5 Cant. 6.13 Object . Sol. Eph. 2.20 . Ro , 3.3 , 4 Rom. 9.26 Ro. 10.18 Col. 1 6. Ex. 20. Gen. 9.9 . Gen. 17.7 . Mat. 28. Matth. 16 2 Chro. 15.12.14 . Neh. 9.38 Mat. 28.19 Act. 2.41 . 2 Cor. 5.19 Levit. 2.13 Deut. 29 12. Deut. 26 18. Deut. 33.3 . & 26.17 Act 2.41 Act. 8.12 37.38 . Mat. 28.19 1 Cor. 10.16 Psal . 44.17 Gal. 3.27 Rom. 4.11 . Ezech. 16.20 . Psal . 110.3 . Acts 2 41 Cant. 1.4 . Rom. 7.4 . Ex. 19.3.7.8 . Iosh 4. ● , 8 2 Chro. 24 2.4 7. Hest . 8.17 . 2 Chro. 30 Violentiū non coactorum est regnum caelorum . 2 Chro. 30 19.20 . 2 Chro. ●3 16 2 Chro. 34 32.33 . 2 Chro. 15 12 Neh. 9.38 & 10.29 . Ez. 10.3 , 19 Object . Sol. Rom. 13. Gen. 17.7 Act 8. Fran. Iohns Artic against Fr and Dutch Churches . Ioh. 20 , 21 22 , 23 ▪ 1 Cor. 14. Ensem stringēdo , decreta publicādo 2 Cor. 2 : 7. Exod. 21.28 , 29 , 30. 1 Why the bastards of christians are baptizable ? 1 Cor. 1.16 . Act. 12. Act. 8. Mat. 28. 2 An harlots fact doth not make her no Christian . 3 An harlots fact doth not deprive her or her child of the right of christianity . 4 No man ought lawfully to stay bastards frō Baptisme . Vt regenerandi etsi nondum regenerati 1 Cor. 12 , 27. 1 Cor. ● . 12 Deut. 23.2 Gal. 4. Gen. 21. Object . Sol. Exposititij . Si inter Christianos nati fuerint , ex Charitate habendi profilijs Christianorum si non sit justa causa contrariū praesumendi . 1 Cor. 6. In sensu composito . Mat. 18.6 . 1 Cor. 6 : 9.10 Gal. 5.9.22 . 1 Cor. 6. 1 Tim. 5.8 Eze. 18. Two sorts of unbel●evers . ● In part . 2 In whole . Object . Rom. 4.11 . Sol. Mat. 28.19 . Censure . Rom. 11. Col. 1. Sol. 1 Cor. 7.14 Censure . Eph. 2 , Sanctitatem foederalem , ut qui sunt regenerandi non regenerati Rom. 2. Act. 2.39 . Object . Sol. Obiect . Sol. Exod. 20. Censure . Censure . Censure . Censure . Gen. ●7 . Sol. Heb. 13. Censure . 1 Tim. 5.8 . 2 Pet. 2.19 , 20. Censure . Sol. Act. 2. 42. 1 Cor. 1 , 2. Censure . Sol. Censure . 2 Tim. 2.19 Eze. 18. Censure . Sol. Act. 8. & 9 Mat. 28. Censure . Sol. Act 18.12 , 13 , 14 , 15. 1 Christ is the head of the catholike Church , Eph. 1.22 . Col. 1.18 . Iohn 1 16. Col. 1 19 Eph 1.22 . Eph. 9.6 . 1 Iohn 2. Eph. 5.23 . Eph 1.3 . 1 King. 1.18 . 2. Christ is the head of particular Churches ▪ 1 Cor. 12.27 . Apoc. 1. 1 Tim. 3.15 . 1 Cor. 11. Heb. 3 6. Heb. 10. 3. Christ is the head of our Church . 1 Cor 3.10 , 11. Eph. 2.20 . 1 Pet. 2.7 . 1 Cor. 3.10 1 Cor. 1.2 . 1 Pet. 2.5 1 Cor. 3 9. Eph. 4.11.12 . Acts 2.47 . Iohn 14.6 . Ioh. 10.31 1 Cor 3 5. Rom 6.4 . 1 Cor. 10.16 Eph. 2.19 1 Cor. 2.12 . Acts 11.18 . Acts 15.11 Acts 2.47 Acts 11.20 . to 26. Acts 5. Mat. 16. Iohn 20. Mat. 13. Obiect . Sol. Mic 7.19 . Gen. 3.15 Iohn 4 7. Zac. 14 20 2● . Luk. 15.57 . Col. 1.13 2 Cor. 3 1● Acts 9. 1 Cor. 1.2 . Rom. 11. ●● 12.15.19 . Mat. 10.34 Phil. 11.13 14 Mat. 11.22 Psal . 2. Obiect . Sol. 4 The headship of the King doth not hinder the headship of Christ . 1 Cor. 11. Esa . 9.15 . 1 Sam. 15 17. Exod. 18.25 1 The Church hath a power to governe it selfe under Christ . Mat. 22.23 . Exod. 2.14 Acts 2.41.42 . Acts 14.23 . Tit. 1.5 . Iam. 5.14.6.8 . 1 Cor. 16.1 , 2. Gal 6.6 . 2 Thes . 3.6 . 1 Cor. 11.20 . Acts 15 1. 2 Ver. 10.24 28 verse 29. 1 Cor. 8.8 . 1 Cor 11 ▪ 4.5 , &c. ver . 33 34 1 Cor. 14.26.46 . 2 Kings are prime officers to advance government in Churches . Mat. 28. Mat. 16. Mat● 6 Rom. ●2 . 8 1 Cor , 11.28 . Rom. 13.5 1 Tim. 2.2 . Esa . 49.23 Object . Sol. Rom. ●3 . Object . Sol. Num. 10.1 , 2. Iosh 24. ● ▪ 18. 1 Chro. 15. 2 Chro. 15.14 . 2 Chro. 22.3 . 2 Chro 20 2 Chro. 34 29 30 1 King. 15 12 , 14 , 14. 2 King. 23.2 , 3. 2 Chro. 29.3 , 4 , 5. 2 Chro. ● ▪ 14 , ●5 2 Chro. 29 4 , & 31.4.16 , 17. 2 Chro. 35 2. Neh. 13.11.12 . 2 Chro. 30 2 Chro. 34 2 Chro. 15 2 Chro. 19 18. Object . Sol. 1 Sam. 15.17 . 1 Tim. 2.2 . 3. Rom 13.5 . Obiect . Sol. Obiect . Sol. Mar. 9.40 Hest . 9. 1 Cor. 11. Object . Sol. Acts 15.28 . Acts 16.3 . Acts 21.81 22 , 23 , 24 ▪ 25. Obiect . Sol. Deut. 17. Exod. 12. Mat. 26. Iosh 5.5.6 7.9 . Math. 12.3 5. 2 Chro. 7.7 . 1 King. 8.64 . 2 Chro. 30 2 , 3 , 17.18 ▪ &c. Object . Sol. Object . Pro. 2.20 . Sol. Mar. 9.40 . Rom 13.5 . Act. 3.2 . 1 Cor. 1.2 . 1. Saints by calling . 1 Cor. 1.2 . Gal 3. Act. 1. Ioh. 15.2 . Heb. 10. ●9 2 Renewed Saints not onely matter of a visible Church . 1 Cor. 12. 2 Cor. 12.11 . Eph. 4.3 . Iude 3. Eph 2.20 . Rom. 14.5 . 2 Tim. 3.16 . Eph 1.3 . Eph. 4.12 , 13. 1 Cor. 13 9 1 Cor. 16.10 . Psal . 119. A mixed company in the visible Church Ioh. 3.16 1 Cor. 15· Act 8. 1 Cor. 11. Mat. 22.9 . 10. 12. Object . Mat. ●3 . 38 Sol. 1 Ioh. 5. Mat. 13.24 ver . 38. Hos . 2.23 . Luk. 13.26 , 27. Mat. 7 22. Mat. 24.13 . 2 Thes 2.4 . Apo. 18.1 , 2. 1 Cor 3.3 . 1 Cor. 15.12 . 1 Cor. 5.1 . 1 Cor. 11.21 . 1 Cor. 1 12 1 Cor. 5. Gal. 1. Gal 3. Object . Sol. 2 Cor. 2 , 16. Tit. 2.11 . Ro. 6.1 . 1 Tim. 2.4 Gen. 18.22 . Mat. 22.13 1 Cor. 1● . 29 Iud. 2 . 2● . Mat. 13.28 Mat. 22. Mat. 16. Iohn 20. 1 Cor. 5.12 Ro. 11.20 . Gal. 5.24 . Ioh. 15.4 . Object . Sol. Deut. 5.27 vers . ●9 . Ex. 34 27 Deut. 26.17.18 Object . Sol. Obiect . Sol. 1 Pet. 2.9 . 1 Pet. 1.1 , 2. Ps . 78.36 , 37. 2 Tim. 2 ▪ 20 ▪ 21. Object . Sol. 1 Cor 11. Luk. 19.27 . Object . Sol. Rom. 14. Ma● . 13.47 , 48 , 49 Object . Sol. Apo. 3.1 . Obiect . Sol. How wicked members are cut off from us . Ier. 15.19 . Psal . 109. Eph. 5. Psal . 120. Eccles . 8.2 Object . Sol. 1 Cor. 11.28 . Gal. 6.5 . vers . 3. 1 Sam 2.17.24 . 1 Cor. 10. Ioh. 6. Mat. 22.9.10 . Act. 8. 1 Cor. 11. Mat. 22.12 friend , Ioh. 6.54 . Ier 31. Heb. 8. Ex. 12. 1 Cor. 14. 2 Cor. 6. 2 Cor. 10.8 Obiect . Matth. 7 Matth. 15. Sol. Obiect . Sol. Object . Sol. 3 Of pollution of communion by wicked members . Levit. 4.13.14 . &c. Ezek. 22.26 . Deut. 17.8 9. Apoc. 2. & 3. 1 Cor. 11. 2 Cor. 12. Apoc. 2.20 24.25.26 . Ezek. 11.20.21 . Ezek. 18.14.17.20 Ezek. 33● Gal. 5.10 . Tit. 1 15. Object . Sol. 1 Tim. 5.22 . Eph 5.11 . Pro. 1.10 . Dan. 3.4 , 5 , 6. Es . 10.1 . 1 Sam. 22.18.19 . 2 Sam 11.15 , 17. 2 K● 12.3 . Mar ●5 . 1 Kin ● 1 Kin. 21.7.25 . Prov. 1.11 , 12 , 13. Pro. 7.18 . 1 Cor. 15.33 . 2 Sa. 13.5 . Mar. 6. ●4 . Act. 19.25 . Nu. 25.3 . & 31.16 . Ro. 1.32 . Act ▪ 8.1 . Act. 7.58 . Lev. 19.17 . & 20.45 . 2 Sam. 12.14 Es . 5.20 . Pro. 24.24 Ro. 14.21 1 Cor. 8.13 Eph 5 11 1 Cor. 6. ● Obiect . Sol. Iud. 11. Num. 16.10 . Iud. 8. ● . 2 Pet 2.10 . Heb. 12.4 . 2 Chro. 14. & 15. 2 Chro. 29 & 30. & 34. Ezr. 2. & 3. Neh. 2. Hag. 1. Zech. 4. Ez. 4.23.23 . Object . Hag. 1.4 , 6 Sol. 1 Sam. 2.17 , 24. Object . Sol. Gen. 17.1 . Ex. 34. ●8 . Deu. 10 12. Levit. 6. Num. 35 33. Levit. 18.21.24 , 25. Es . 1.9.15 . & 38.2.10 Ier. 7. Es . 65.5 . Luk. 18.14 Tit. 1. Matth. 5.23.24 . 1 Cor. 11.23.28 . Object . Sol. 1 Cor. 1● 29. Numb . 19 13.20 . Hag. 2.12 13. Act 21.28 Deut. 23.3 Matth. 22 Object . Sol. Mat. 23.16 Mat. 24.3 . Ioh. 11.49 Luk. 4 28 , 29. Lu. 23.18 Mat. 11.20 21.22 . &c Mat. 27.25 Mar 7.9 . Matth. 21.12 ▪ 13. Ioh. 9.22 . Matth. 5. Ioh. 19.14 Luk. 2 21 Luk. 2.22 . Luk. 2.46 Luk. 3.21 Ioh. 2.13 . Matth ▪ 23 1 , 2 , 3 ▪ Object . Sol. Iudg. 18. 3 Ioh ▪ ● . 9 Obiect . Es ▪ 62 ● Sol. Se sti●lis conscientiae adactum , ● fecisse Se pro gloria altissimi de● pati ▪ Act 23 , 1● Object . Sol. Object . Sol. Nu. 16.3 . Object . Sol. Eph. 1. 1 Cor. 12 ▪ Ex. 1. ●8 . Ro. 12.6 , 8. 1 Tim. 4.14 . & 5 ●● Act ▪ 14.23 Act. 20.17 . Act. 21 ▪ ●8 23. Act. 15 . 2● , 23. Ne. 13.11 Apoc. 2 ▪ 1. & 12.18 ▪ Apoc. 3.1 . Ro. 13 , 21. Tit. 3.1 . Act. 20 28 Heb. 13 ▪ 17 1 Pet. 2. Apoc. 1.6 . Ro. 6.12 . Object . Math. 18.15 , 16 , 17 , 18 , 19. Mat. 28.20 . Matth. 18. Sol. Heb. 6 1. 1 Tim , 1.5 . Eph. 4.1 . Mat. 16.24 Rom. 6.12 Act. 2.42 . Phil. 3. Obiect . Sol. Matth. 18. Matth. 18 expoūded . Mat. 16.19 Ioh. 20.23 1 Cor. 5. 1 Tim. 2 Tim. Col. 3.13 . Mat. 18.7 . Ma. 18. av . 8 ad v. 15. Mat. 18.15 ad finem . Luk. 19.2 . Mat. 9 9. Act. 25.11 Act. 22 28 Mat. 18.15 . ver . 16. Deu. 19. ●5 Heb. 10.28 Mat. 18.17 . 1 Tim 1.8 Allusive . 1 Cor. 6.1.6 . Ro. 9.13 . Ioh. 16. 1 Cor. 6 ▪ 2. 1 Tim. ● . 1 , 2. Gal. 5 15. Ro. 16.18 . 1 Thes . 4. Ro. 13.1 , 4. Why the former sense is true . Mat. 18.21 vers . 35. vers . 15. vers . 17. 1 Cor. 5.11 . Luk. 19. Luk. 3.12.13 . Obiect . Sol. Object . Sol. Act ▪ 19.32.39.41 . Object . Sol. 2 Pet. 2.4 . Jude 6. Matth. 22. Mat. 16 19 Joh. 20.23 Matth. 5.25 , 26. Obiect . Sol. Matth. ●8 . 19 . Quid hoc si●● velit series ipsa loci declarat . Siqui correptus est animo indoluerit & in idem propositum venerit cum eo ● quo corripiaetur dabitur ei de clementissimo Deo ven●a &c. Object . Mat. 18 20 Sol. Object . 1 Cor. 1.5 Sol. 1 Cor 5. Object ▪ 1 Cor. ● ▪ Sol. 1 Cor. 5.4 . Ioh. 20. Apoc. 2 ▪ & 3. 1 Cor. 5.1 . Ver ▪ 2. that he might be 〈◊〉 away from them , no● cast out 〈◊〉 themselv● . vers . 4. vers ▪ 13 : vers . 11. Object . Sol. Matth. 22. Object . 1 Cor ▪ ● . 6 . 1 Cor. 6.2 . 1 Cor. 5.3 , 4. 1 Their name . Object . Sol. Act. 20.28 Es . 56.10 . Matth. 13. Apoc ▪ 2 ▪ & ● 2 Tim. & Tit. post sc . Aernis . 1 Cor. 6.4 . Ro 15.8 . Matth. 20.28 . 1 Pet. 2.25 . Heb. 3.1 . 1 Pet. 5.1 . 3 Ioh. 1. 2 Cor. 8.23 . Phil. 2.25 Apoc. 1. & 2. & 3. Object . 2 Their degree . Sol. 1 Cor ▪ 12 . 2● . Ephes ▪ ● 1 Tim 3 . 1● . 3. Their jurisdiction Ob ▪ Sol. 1 Tim. 3.15 . 1 Tim. 6.14 . 1. Ordination . T it 1.5 . 1 Tim. 5.22 Object . Sol. Act. 16.2.3 . 1 Tim. 4.14 . Object . 2 Tim 4.5 . Sol. 1 Cor. 16.10 . Object . Sol. 2. Redressing things amisse ▪ Tit. 1.5 . 1 Tim. 1.3 1 Tim. 5.19 . Tit. 1.11 . Obiect . Act. 4.17.18 , 19 , 20. Sol. Act 9. 1 Tim. 5.24 . Object . Sol. Tit. 1.5 . Object Sol. Object . 1 Pet. 5. ● ▪ Mat. 20.25 , 26 , 27. Sol. Ro. 13.1 . &c. 1 Pet 2.13 14 , 17 , &c. Ioh. 13.13 1 Cor 12.28 . Ezek. 34.4 . Object . Sol. Object . Sol. 1 Tim. 5.17 . Tit. 1.9 1 Thes . 5.11 , 13. 1 Tim. 3.1 4. Act ▪ 14 Object . Sol. Eph. ● . 11 . 1 Cor. 12. ● Mat 9 ●● Act 1● . ●● 1 Tim. 6 ● Eph. 4.11 . 2 Cor. 6.4 Ro. 15.8 . Act. 6. Object . 1 Tim. 3.13 Act. 6.3 . Act. 6.6 . Act. 7. Act. 8.35 , 38. 1 Tim. 3.13 Object . Sol. Ex. 22.10.11 , 12. 1 King. 8.31 . 1 King. ●8 . 10 . Gen. 25.33 . 1 Kin. 2.8.43 , 44. Gal. 2.4 . 2 T●m ▪ 3.6 Iude 4. ● Tim. 2 . 1● . Object . Sol. 1 Cor. 5. Object . Sol. Object . Sol. Indulgences . 2 Cor. 2.6 , 7 , 8 , 10 Object . Sol. Purse penances . Ex. 21 ▪ 29 , 30. Obiect . Sol. 1 Cor. 6.2 . Gal. 6. Jude . Nu. 16.10 . 2 Pet. 2. Object . Gal. 5. Iob. 42. Object . Sol. Object . Sol. 1 Cor. 4. ●1 . The greatnesse of the sin of separation Jud. 5. Obiect . Sol. Ro. 2.8 , 9. 1 Cor. 6.9 , 10. Ob. Sol. Hos . 4. ● Cor. 14.3 . Rom. 10. Matth. 28. 1 Tim. 4.16.13 . 1 Tim. 3 7. 1 Tim. 2.2 . 1 Tim. 3.2 . 2 Tim. 3.16 . 1 Tim. 3.2 1 Pet. 5.2 . Joh. 21.15 , 16 , 17. Joh. 10. Act. 1.23 . Act. 6.6 . 1 Tim 3.10 . 1 Tim. 4.14 . Act 6.6 . Act. 13.3 . Tit. 1.5 . 1 Tim. 3. ● . 1 Cor. 1● . ●● Exod. 4. Jer. 1.6 . Es . 6. How the M●nistery may be desired . 1 Tim. 6. 1 Tim. 4.16 . 1 Tim. 3.1 . Joh. 21.15 . Act. 20.28 1 Pet. 5.1 , 2. 2 Tim 4.2 Matt. 28.20 . 2 Tim 4.7 , 8. Dan 12.3 2 Cor. 12.15 . Object . Sol. 2 Sam , 18.19 . ad finē . 1 Tim ● . 2● Object . Sol. Eph. 4. Marks o● true teachers . Ro. 6.16 Ioh. 8.34 Ioh. 15.19 Ier. 23.22 . 1 Tim. 4.6 Ioh ▪ 16.22 1 Cor. 3. 1 Cor. 13. Phil. 3.15 , 16. Ioh. 10.2.7 vers . 3. Vers . 3. Pro. 27.23 Mat. 13.52 Vers . 3. Psa . 92.14 J●hn 5. Jo● . 10 4. Es . 4● . 4 . Jer. 6.29 . Jer. 23. ●2 . Ro. 1 ▪ 16. 1 Cor. 4 : 15. Object . Sol. Jer. 23.29 . Object . Sol. Luk. ● . 17 . Luk. 22.32 . Jer. 31.18 . Es . 10.21 . Object . Joh. 4. 1 Pet. 3.1 . Act. 18. Ephes . 4.11.12 . Act. 26.18 . Object . Sol. 2 King. ● . 23 Object . Sol. Tit. 1.5 . Object . Sol. Apoc. 1 ▪ ● Ep● . 1. Phil. ● . Col. 1 ▪ Ro. 15.16 . Es . 66.21 . Object . Sol. Ex 28 . 1● Ex. 40.16 1 Chro. 23.1 , 2 , 3 , &c. 1 Kin 2.27 2 Chro ▪ 8.14 . 2 Chro , ●9 24. Act. ● , 15. &c. Act. 6.2 . Act. 2.38 . Act. 10.44 Obiect . Sol. Eph. 47. 1 Tim. 3. 1 Sa. 2.24 . Joh. 3.22 . Joh. 4.2 . Joh. 6.70 . Joh. 3.22.24 . Mat. 4.12.17 . Act. 10.23 . vers . 48. 1 Cor. 12.28 . Object . Sol. 1 Cor ● . ● ▪ vers . 8 , 9.10 ▪ 1● . 1 Tim. ● . 17 ▪ 18. Gal. 6.6 . Object . Sol. Col. 2.17 Es . 1. Mal 3.9 Matth. 23 Object . Sol. 1 Cor. 9.14 Heb. 7.6 , 7 , 8 ▪ 9. 2 Cor 5 20 2 Cor. 3. Object . Ioh. 4. Sol. Ob●ect . Heb. 3● ▪ Sol. Ioh. 14. Heb. 10. Two sorts of ceremonies . Deut. 4.2 . 1 Sam. 8.5 Deu. 17.14 1 Kin. 8.63 ver ▪ 65. ver . 22. Deut. 17. Josh . 24 ▪ 26. 2 Ch. 15.14 Nehe. 9. ult . & 10 ▪ 11. Hest . 9. 1 Cor. 14 26.40 . Object . Sol. Tit. 1.5 . Rom. 14.3.5 , Act. 15. Eph 4 3 ▪ 5 Col. 2.5 . Num. 36 1 Cor. 10 ▪ 23. 1 Cor. 8.13 2 Sam. ●4 . 1 Cor. 6. ● ▪ Eph. 3.14 Gen. 14.22 . Object . Sol. 1 Cor. 14.26 . Object . Sol. Gen. 24. Ex. 17.15 Iosh . ●2 . 24 , to 35. 1 Sam. Joh. 2. Luk. 4.17 , 20. 1 Cor , 11. 1 Cor. 16.20 . 2 Pet. 2.11 Jude . 1 Cor. 14. Mar. 9 40. Object . Sol. Object ▪ Sol. Pro. 25 ▪ 4 1 Cor. 8. & 10. 1 Kin. 19. Ex. 23.24 . Ezek. 18.6 Ps 44.20 . Ex. 32.6.19 . Am. 2.8 . Obiect . Ioh. 4. Sol. Object . Sol. Object . Sol. H●s . 14.2 . Matth. 6. Luk. 11 ▪ 2. Object . Zach. 12. ●0 . Luk. 11. ● . A double power of prayer . Rom. 8. Object . Sol. Eph. 6. 1 Tim. 2. Psal . 14. Psal . 47. 1 Cor. 14. Lu. 22.41 Lom 3. Ps . 123 1. Ps . 35.10 . Psal . 45. Object . Sol. Object . Sol. Num. 21.5 Ro. 8.26 , 27. Object . Sol. Why se● formes are prescribed ministers ? Ob. 2 Pet. 2. Object . Ezek. 18.21 , 22. Sol. Object . Sol. Neh. 8 , 6. 1 Cor. 14.16 . Object . Sol. Prov. 28. Matth. 16. Joh. 20 ▪ Act. 17. Of the Lit●y . Ob. Sol. Ob. Sol. Luk. 11. Object . Sol. Object . Sol. 1 Sam. 1. Object . Sol. Es . 38.1 . Matth. 25 〈◊〉 ▪ 20. Psal . 109.13 , 14. Ob ▪ Joh. 17. Sol. 1 Tim. 2 1 Ps . 67.3 . Luk. 23. 1 Joh. 5. Psal 141. As some translate . Gal. 6.2 . 1 Joh 5 , 16 Object . Sol. Object . Sol. Ex. 19. Eph. 4 1. Object . Sol. Object . Sol. Ex. 20. Ob. Sol. 2 Thes . 2.4 . Mar 9.4 . 1 Cor , 6. Rom. 13.5 1 Cor. 11. Es . 29.13 . Mat. 15.9 . D●ut . 4 2 : & 12.32 . Col. 2 ▪ Object . Sol. Deu. 27.12 1 King. 8.14.55 . Neh. 8.5 . Object . Sol. Object . Sol. 1 Cor. 10. Object . Sol. Ob. Sol. Psal . 95.5 . Ps 149.3 . Ps . 150.4 . Psal . 47.1 . 2. Sam. 17. 1 King. 1.47 . The crosse in Baptisme . Object . Sol. Act. 1● . How wee use the signe of the crosse ? 1 Cor. 16.20 . 1 Pet. 5.14 Object . Sol. Levit. 14. Obiect . Responses Sol. Act. 8. 1 Sam. 20.42 . Rom. 4.11 ● Pet. 3.21 . Heb. 10.25 2 Pet. 3. 1 Consider one another . Eccles . 9. 1 Cor. 16. Psal . 143· Eph. 6. Matth. 7. Rom. 11. 2 Thes . 3.10 , Matth. 26. Gen 38. Gal. 6.1 . 1 Cor. 4. ult . Ier. 23. Rom. 11. 1 John 5.21 . Luke 22. 2 Exhort one another . Pro. 13.10 . Iam. 1.21 Jam. 3. Mat. 20. Eph. 1. John 7. Eccles . 3. Eccles . 11. 1 Sam. 25. Luk. 19. Ex. 32. Gal. 1 ▪ 6. Apo. 2.4 . Mat. 13.9 . 1 Thes . ● . 11 . Prov. 6. Jam , 4. 2 Sam. 24.10 . 2 Sam. 16.7 , 8. Heb. 1● . Ex. ● . Prov. ● . 3 The day approacheth . Luk 19.42 Eccles 12. 2 Cor. 5.11 . 2 Pet. 3. 
A26579	----	Covnterpoyson considerations touching the poynts in difference between the godly ministers and people of the Church of England, and the seduced brethren of the separation : argvments that the best assemblies of the present church of England are true visible churches : that the preachers in the best assemblies of Engl. are true ministers of Christ : Mr. Bernards book intituled The Separatists Schisme : Mr Crashawes questions propounded in his sermon preached at the crosse / examined and answered by Henry Ainsworth. Ainsworth, Henry, 1571-1622? 1642 Approx. 543 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 80 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-12 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A26579 Wing A809 ESTC R19104 12397849 ocm 12397849 61209 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. 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Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Bernard, Richard, 1568-1641. -- Christian advertisements and counsels of peace. Crashaw, William, 1572-1626. -- Sermon preached at the crosse Feb. 14, 1607. Sprint, John, d. 1623. Brownists. Great Britain -- Church history -- 17th century. 2005-02 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2005-07 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-09 Andrew Kuster Sampled and proofread 2005-09 Andrew Kuster Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion COVNTERPOYSON CONSIDERATIONS touching the poynts in difference between the godly ministers and people of the Church of England , and the seduced brethen of the Separation . ARGVMENTS That the best assemblies of the present Church of England , are true visible Churches . That the Preachers in the best assemblies of Engl. are true ministers of Christ. Mr BERNARDS book intituled The SEPARATISTS SCHISME Mr CRASHAWES Questions propounded in his Sermon preached at the Crosse. Examined and Answered by HENRY AINSWORTH Lord God the strength of my saluation ; couer thou my head , in the Day of battel , Psal. 140.7 . RIGHT RIGHT Printed in the yeare 1642. A fore-speech to the Christian reader . THE truth and church of God , by multitude of enemies , hath euer been d●sgraced and troden down in the world that many which haue seemed to loue and seek after it , haue stumbled at the reproch & oppotision of the same . Yet the godly wise haue vnderstood & discerned things that differ . It is a great help vnto the weak and simple , when the deceits and snares wherewith the adversarie seeketh to destroy the sowl , are o●enly discouered , by the light of Gods word and for this cause haue I endeauoured according to the measure of knowledge and grace giuen vnto me , to make answer vnto such reasons cauils and calumniations , as are giuen out against that part of the truth , which this church witnesseth vnto the world , touching our separation from the Church of Engl. the Considerations & Arguments first answered , were written by Mr Spr a Minister of Glocestershire ; & in them ( as I suppose ) the summ and weight of that which may be sayd for that church , is comprised . Mr Bernards booke hath rather shew then weight of reason , as the iudicious reader may perceiue ; and seemeth to be penned by him , rather for disgrace of others then defence of themselues . But no better fruit can be exspected from such as rebel against the light which themselues once seemed to regard . Mr Crashawes questions are rather to stumble at , then to direct the ignorant as hauing neyther weight of argument against vs nor for themselues . Yet as by al these meanes the truth is oppugned , so by all contrary good meanes it should be defended ; that wisdome may be iustified of all her children , and others left without excuse . How weak and insufficient the aduersaries reasons are in partiular , the answers vnto them more par●icularly will shew . Here I will briefly obserue , some generall things whereby falshood endeavoureth to vphold it selfe ; and how it may by the prudente be discried . Vntruth hat● sought to preuayl . 1. By perse●uting such as haue spoken against , or forsaken her iniquitie . iniquitie . This the blood of Gods martyrs shed in all ages proclaimeth vnto all men . And thus haue the chief Pastors of the Church of England dealt with Christs lambs , in these our dayes . For hauing gotten into their hands the sword of the Magistrate , they there with haue smitten such as with the word , ( the sword of the spirit ) they could not conuince . In which they fulfill the measure of their Fathers ; for so haue the Papall Prelates vsed to feed their flocks 2. By blaspheming and preaching against the faith & witnesses therof . For they that hold forth the truth are exposed to the reproch & venim of the tongue , and many vniust calumniations come forth against their persons , especially the principall of them , whom evill minded men doe most maligne . Also the cause it selfe is often wronged , whiles the truth thereof , and reasons that vphold it , are sv●pressed ; arguments feighned and confuted which wer neuer made , or otherwise made then the aduersaries pretend ; and sometimes such articles and errors imputed , as from which it is altogether free . How others heretofore haue caried themselues this way , all records shew : how men at this day haue dealt with vs and the truth which we imbrace ; many pulpits in Engl. can witnesse . besides priuate calumnies innumerable , and some publicke pamphletes . The stinch of their reprochfull mouthes , hath caused many to distast the sweet sauour of the Gospell , and caused also for a while a dislike in sundry of vs , till God in mercy visited and saued vs from the deceitfull tongue . 3. Yet is not this yenough , but men seek to bear down the truth by writing against and to the defamation of the same , with all exquisite cunning and frawd to disgrace it , and by plausible reasons to perswade vnto error . If any would see this , let the generall arguments vsed at this day against vs , consonant and agreable to the reasons of Papists & other ancient adversaries of the Gospel , be obserued . 1. The Papists haue continually exclaimed against them for leauing their mother the ch : of Rome that bare them ; crying out the Church the Church , the Catholike church ; and saying that a Luther and all the pack of their first fathers , were children of their mother the Catholike Church and are gone out from them . And when the Protestants obiected her sinns , for which they left her , it was pleaded againe , b will ye forsake your mother because shee wanteth perfect bewty , or because there is some deformity in her & c ? Moreouer they would allege ( to proue them schismatiks ) how in that ch : c th●y had been regenerated and made h●r citezens and members by baptisme . &c that from her they had their first faith and knowledge , yea euen d the Bible it selfe , which treasure their church euer had the custody of ; and many such like . These are the mayn reasons obiected to vs at this day , they tel vs the Church of England is the e mother of the faithfull , that the ministery thereof f hath begotten vs , if euer we were truely begotten in the spirit ; asking us a where els we were regenerate , ●f not in the womb of that their church &c. And if we tell them of their transgressions , for which we forsake them , they answer , b though there were in our church these wounds you speake of , yet doe they not come neare the hart , they be not deadly , they may blemish the bewty but endanger not the life of our church . &c. c therefor● your separation from vs , is scismaticall and vniust . and many such like pleas they pretend . 2 , For the ch●rch of Rome , it hath by her Mediators been alleged , that d in her is reteyned the p●ofession of Christ authorety of scriptures and Apostolike doctrine , as touching all the chief or capitall articles of religion ; and that the church is to be esteemed by the foundation thereof which is Chrst , on which foundation though they that came after , builded wood and hay and stubble instead of siluer and gold and precious stones ; yet haue they not by and by departed from the foundation &c. Now who knoweth not , that this is the bulwarke of the church of Eng. now , against all batteries , and one of the chiefest rea●ons whereby they reteyn many simple and wel affected people among them ? and that may be also seen in this book following pag. 43.105 119. & 123. and in many other of their writings . 3. Vniuersall consent agreement and applause of Churches in al nations , of Synodes and Councels , of Fathers and learned men haue been the continuall boast of Papists in all their books against the Protestants : now they in En●l to beare out their estate , vrge agayn and agayn the like against vs ; that when Gods word will not vphold them , yet mans word at least may honour them before the people . See after in this treatise . pag 9. & 22. & 44 , & 5. & 89 , 91.92.128 . 4. Whereas the truth hath brought for her defense the evident scriptures . e papists haue been wont to carp at the allegations and interpretations of them , and chalenge their aduersaries for corrupting them ; the formall protestants in Engl. haue done the like f against the Reformists , and they now use the like colour against vs ; but how truely . let the particulars shew after in this book , pag. 90.91.97 . 5. To reuile and calumniate such as forsooke them hath been the cōmon practise of Papists , calling them heretiks , schismatikes , Lutherens , Calumists &c. and matching them with wicked heretiks heretofore , & now liuing : The same way doe our aduersaries now walke in proclayming vs to be Schismatiks , Seduced , Brownists , Donatists &c. and to make vs the more odious vnto the people , they enroll vs sometime with the most vile blasphemers that they can mention . For he was esteemed a g forward ●reacher am●ng them , who to grace his own cause by disgracing the truth , would needs h ioyn vs with the blasphemer Hacket , ( sometimes a brother of the reformists , and hot mainteyner of their cause , ) & to make his malice the more remarkable , he puts in the margine of his book , The brownest and Hacket of an euill spirit ; and that which he writeth besides , is so fraudulently set down , that the simple reader who know●th not our cause , may thinke that this Hacket was one of vs. This abuse we su●fer , because ( forsooth ) we were thought to hinder their coūterfeyt reformation , which Hacket would haue set vp by force for which they beare their reproch at his hands that wrote English Scottizing for discipline ; but this man most iniuriously would turn it vpon vs. These and the like arguments doe euill men continually vse against the truth which presseth them ; and which they seek to suppresse , but all in uayne : for it will preuayl , mangre their opposition ; and that which they thinke to hinder the Gospell b● , God will turne to the furtherance of the same , and confusion of his aduersaries . Against these and all other like colours wherewith false churches a● adorned , two meanes haue been vsed for to discouer the falshood ; th● one manifesting the fact or estate of a person or people ; the other ▪ the lawfulnesse of the same . The commandement of God is a lantern ; and the law a light to declare what is good or euill : and evidences there are of euery publick estate and action . For in al ages God hath moued some to obserue and speake against the abuses reigning ; and some haue recorded things for their glory , which turne vnto their shame . ●y this mean● the skirts of the whore of Rome haue been discouered , whiles some that loued , and othersome that loathed her , haue painted out her filthinesse : which being compared with the chastitie of Christs spowse set forth in holy writ , hath caused righteous men , ( as was a foretold to iudge her children after the manner of harlots and of murtherers ; and the very hornes of that beast , to hate the b whore and burne her with fire . And we at this day that witnesse the truth against the remainders of that whores cup , are driuen to breake silence & to plead for Christ in publik , because the aduersaries so importune vs , by continuall preaching and writing against vs , and seeking to bear out all with the cloke ●f the gospel , and to hide the iniquities vnder a vaile of professing truthes fundamentall , they will hardly be a known of the manifold euils and grosse corruptions , that preuayl in their assemblies . Therefore also are we forced to produce their own writers for to witnes with vs ; who both heretofore and to this day , complayn of the sinns that reign among them And worthy it is to be obserued how the ministers of England are come to contradict and depart from their own grounds , for to mainteyn their corrupt estate . For now they vtterly deney the visible church to be a company of faithfull people that truely worship Christ and readily obey him ; co●tra●y both to all the scriptures and to their own Articles d of religio● . A●d Mr Bernarde in the name of all the diuines in their church , yea ( if we ●ay bele●ue him ) of all the reformed Churches in Christendome , e telleth vs with a marginall note also to haue it wel obserued , that the true word of God preached . and true sacraments of Christ administred , are infallible toke●s of a true church . I say not ( saith he ) the word truely preach●d , nor the sacr●m●nts rightly administred : but thus ; the true word preached , the true sacr●m●n●● administred . Now lay these things together and see what a holy communion they will make the church of God to be : namely , if not a ro●t of miscreants , yet at least a mesceline multitude of beleeuers and infidel● , holy and profane . Among whome it the true word be preached , though neuer so curruptly falsly peruersly , by any Popeling , Baalist . or Balaamite ; if the true sacraments be administred , though neuer so superstitiausly profanely and disorderly , to the open wicked &c. yet there must needs be a true church . Such heauenly doctrine , or rather such hellish error is now taught by the transformed ministers , for to make mē keep communion with Belial . Against these and other like impostures , haue I endeauoured to bring out the truth , ( though naked and destitute of all wordly ornaments , ; and by it to manifest the present aberations of my country from the primitiue faith of Christ ; I haue also produced their own testimonies a-against them , that the Saincts on eart may say , a their rock is not as our Rock , euen our enemies being iudges . And if they will yet resist , the world may see , they are condemned by themselues , But my harts desire and prayer for my brethren is , that they may be saued ; turning from darknes to light , and from the power of Satan vnto God that they may receiue forgiuenes of sinns , and inheretance among them which are sanctified by faith in Christ. H●n●y Ainsworth , A Direction to some principall things conteyned in this book . Administration of the Ministers of Engl , scanned ; with the effects pag , 14. &c. 58. &c. 60. &c. 62. &c. 109. &c. 110. &c. Antichrists kingdome not ouerthrowne by the ministers of Engl. pag. 61. &c. Begetting of faith , how it is pag. 5 , 6 : It is no essentiall note of a true church , p , 6. It should be before the planting of a church p. 40 , 41 146. Building of the church , and how it is performed in England p. 33 34 : &c Christ , not the head , Mediator , Prophet , Priest , or King , of the church of England p , 74. &c. not the spowse of the same , pag , 42. &c Compulsion to the faith and church , vsed in Engl. but vnwarrantable . pag 120.78.131 . & c.. p 133 , Constitution of a church . pag , 98.99 . K. Edwards reformation of religion , and how it was accepted . pag. 120.133 Foundation Christ ; and Fundamentall truth . pretended and discused , pag 34.123 , &c. 126.117 . &c Gifts , proue not a true ministery . pag , 13 : &c. Matter of the church of Engl. pag , 106. Ministery of the church of Engl. pag , 108 &c. A Papist argument against the church of Engl. pag. 111. Pattern of planting a church . pag. 44. Popular ▪ gouernment , obie●ted and answered . pag. 101 , &c. Popes authors of many ordinances now in Engl pag. 137 , &c. Positions concerneng a true church . pag. 65 &c. Profession in Engl. contrary to their estate and pra●tise . pag , 124 , &c Reformation by the Kings of Iudah . p. 134. &c Reformed churches , alleged for approbation of the church of Engl. and answered , pag. 9 , 10.22 &c. 48 , 51 , ●2 , &c. 128 , 129. Repentance not truely preached or practised in the church of Engl. pag. 45. &c. 56. &c. Separation proued necessary : p , 5 , 22 , granted by our aduersaries , pag. 1 : Synns suffred , how they defile the church . pag. 101. &c. Spirits of the Prophets subiect to the Prophets scanned pag. 28.29 . Testimonies of the ministers of Engl. against the estate of that church , concerning The people pag. 2.107.108.59 , 60 , 62.122.125 , 126.127 . The ministery and ministers pag. 3.11.112.81 , 114.119 , 136 , 142 , 143. The worship , pag , 3 , The church gouernours . pag , 4 , Worship of God in the church of England , polluted pleaded for & against , pag. 137. &c , CONSIDERATIONS , Touching the poynts in difference , betvveen the godly 〈…〉 people of the Church of England ; and the seduced brethren , of the separation . A Separation we deny not , from the corruptions of the Church wherein we liue ; 1 in iudgment , 2 profession , 3 practise : 1 of teaching eu●ry part of truth and righteousnes ; 2 of performing the things we teach ; 3 of reprouing every part of sin and error ; 4 and absteyning from all corruptions of life and d●ctrine : for which particulars , so many of both parts haue suffred and doe suffer so many things . But the difference is , we suffer for separating in the Church : you , out of the Church . And this to be true , you know : vnlesse you will cauill , against your own conscience and knowledge . Answer . WHO so examineth these your Considerations , and weigheth them in the ballance of equitie : may finde them wanting in many poynts , touching the differences between your Church , and vs that separate frō the same ; and insufficient in the poynts that are handled to perswade any wise hart to returne vnto you . You ouerpasse 1 the hierarchie of your spirituall Lords the prelates with their vnder officers which reign ouer you ; 1 and the forme of Gods worship by your Leitourgie or seruice booke set vp and vsed in all your parishes . These are two mayn exceptions that we make against you , though you dissemble them in this your writing , and insist vpon other two , 1 the people , and 2 inferior ministerie ( as I conceiue you ; ) as if these onely were the poynts of difference between vs and you . Which whether you haue done of ignorance , or of fraud rather , to deceiue your reader ; I leaue it vpon your conscience to consider of . Againe , the two things that you take vpon you to handle , you for down in these termes , the godly Ministers and people of the Church of England ; whereas our separation is from your Church in generall . wherein many vngodly ministers and people are to be found , standing in commixture , or confusion rather , as one body with those which are estemed more godly and religeous : and therefore you deale not syncerely , to make our separation to seem but from apart and those the godly . Agayn , whereas there is a scisme in your Church , by two contrary factions at warr with your selues , Conformitans and Puritans , ( as you stile one another . ) you deale not plainely , to tell vs whither party you meane to defend , but lead your reader into clowdes and m●st , speaking of godly mi●isters and people ; not naming who or where they are . That tho●gh one may gue●se whome you mean , yet you write so gener●lly & covertly that if danger or in conuenience come by any thing you ha●e sayd , yo● may s●if● it of to eyther side for your best aduantage . A 〈◊〉 you deny not from the corruptions of the Ch●rch wh●rein 〈◊〉 liue ; yet 〈…〉 not what those corruptions are , which behooued you to ha●e done , if you woul● haue effe●ted o●r ret●rne vnto you . For we are uerily perswaded , that they are nothing b●t your corru●t●ons 〈◊〉 we haue separated fro● ; and therefore cannot reioyne our selues vnto you till they be remoued . And seeing you may minde some things to be corru●tions in your Ch●rch , and we othersome : it cannot be we should well accord , till particulars be related ; which therefore ( if you write agayn , ) we pray you in your next to set downe Yet for the present , it is well that the truth hath wrung out such a testimony from yovr own mouth and pen ; whiles you grant and deny not such a separation in generall , as you mention : to the branches whereof if you will stand , and abide also by wh●ch you haue heretofore wr●tten ; I doubt not but the discreet reader will see , your bat ell is ●ot so much against vs as against your selues ; & the sword which you haue dra● 〈◊〉 slay svch as be vpright of way , doth enter into the verie hart of your own Church ; & the b●wes which you haue bent at us , are broken . For ●e forsake your Church for this mayn corruption , that all , sorts of profane and wicked men haue been and are , both they and their seed , receiued into and nourished with●n the b●some of your Church contrary to the first couenant of our redemption , wherein God with his owne mouth proclaymed & perpetvall emnity and warr against the Serpent and his seed , which the women and her seed should wage ; though with the brusing of the heel thereof . Gen. 3. Contrary also to the example of all Gods Churches since the world begann , who alwayes were seperated from the vngodly , as the scriptures shew . Now that this is a corruption a●ong you , your selues haue taught saying and complayning that in the Church a are swarmes of Atheists , jdolaters , Papists erroneus and hereticall s●ctaries , wit●hes , charmers , sorcerers , murtherers , theeues , adulter●rs , liers , &c Also that b among you the holy Saccraments are communicated with the Papists , the holy misteris of God profaned , the Gentiles enter into the Temple of God , the holy things are indifferently communicated with clean and vnclean , circumcised and vncircumcised . Againe that c there be th●wsands which be men and women growne , which if a man ask them how th●y ●halbe saued they cannot tell . As for wickedness in pride envy ha●red and all sinns that can be n●med almost . it deth ouerflow ; and yet you are not ashamed to say are th●y not Christians ? This Test●mony being tr●e , I hope your selues now wil be ashamed to plead that such a people ar Chritians & to be communicated w●th ; or deny that we may separate from them in th●ngs concerning God. An other weighty cause of our separation is , that you haue a popish ministerie ouer this profane multitude ; touching which , your selues also haue thus writen ; a eyther we ●vst haue a right ministerie of God , and a right gouerment of the Church according to the scriptures set vp , both which we lack ; or els there can be no right relig●●n &c. Now for the present ministery that is among you , as Parsons , Vicars . parish priests , Stipendaries , with the rest , you sayd , b that c●me from the pope , as out of the Troian horses belly , to the destr●ction of Gods kingdome . An other cause why we refuse communion with you , is for that you serue God not as himselfe commandeth , but after your own deuising , or by imitation rather of the Romane Antichrist : wh●ch your selues haue proclaymed though we should hold our peace ; for of your seruice booke you say , it was c culled and picked out of the Popish dunhil the portuis and masse ●●●kfull of all abominations : & that in the order of your seruice , d ther i●●o edification but confusion . Now this seemeth vnto vs no small corruption , that yov should offer vnto God that filth which you haue picked out of the Popes dunghil . May we not say vnto you , with the prophet , e Off●r such things vnto your Prince ; will he be content with you , or except your person , saith the Lord of hosts ? You know that Christ hath said f their , offrings of blood I will not offer ; and yet will you take your drinke offrings out of the g great wheres cup , which the holy Ghost saith is h full of abominations , and of the filthines of her fernication ? What mor● loathsome thing could you haue fou●d vnder the sun ? Agayn we haue forsakē your Church because the ecclesiastical gouernment and gouernours , the Lords spirituall , are not according to the ordinance of that Lord who is i the Spirit , but after the institution of his enemy Antichrist . And that this is a fowle corruption , we have also learned from your selues , which say , k The gouerment now used by Archbishops and Rps. &c , is both Antichristian and diuilish . That it l is that which giueth leaue to a man , to be any thing sauing , a sound Christian. Item that m that Vgly and ilfauoured hierarchie , or Church princelines , which instituted at the first by antichrists deuise did afterward villy serue the Pope of Rome to accomplish the ●isterie of iniquity , and to destroy the Church of Christ and doth yet stil at this day serue him : must be abolished , that no remnāts , ne yet any shew therof remayn , if so be we will have Christ to reigne over us . Item that n that profane jurisdiction of Lordly Lord Archbishobs , Bps , Archdeacons , Chansellors , Officialls &c. as contrary to Gods gouerment , and wholy vnderpropt by the canon & Popish law , and with all ioyned with hypocrisie vaynglorie lordlinesse and tyranny . euen for these respects , ( if there were no moe , ) are to be vtterly rooted out of the Church ; except possibly we mean by reconciliation to make Christ and Antichrist fr●inds : Thus haue we been taught by your selues , what corruptions there are in the Church , euen so many and so great , that you complayned thus , o as our lacks are , there can be no right religeon : and now you haue added vnto all the former to teach vs a separation from your corruptions and this not onely in 1 iudgment , or 2 profession , but also in 3 practise and that we should not onely reproue ( as you heretofore haue done . ) euery part of sinne and error , but abstaine also from a●l corruptions of life and doctrine . And now we would pray you tell vs , seeing corruption hath so seased vpon , and possessed ( by your owne confe●sion ( both Preist and people , both worship , and ecclesiasticall gouer●ent ; that as your lacks are , there can be no right religion : and seeing from all corruption we mus● separate : What then rema●neth for vs to commun●cate with you in ? For take away these corruptions out of your church , and you shall se● an vtter d●ssolution and abolishing of the same . Though now it spread it selfe like agreene bay tree : yet will it p●●se away and be gone , and though one seek●●t , it cannot be found . And is it not strange , that when your selues haue taught vs how esteeme of your people , ministerie , divine service and church goverment ; how also to walke and cary our selues , where such corrupt●ons ar , and we haue but departed from these corruptions , ( for , any truth that is among you , we haue not forsaken : ) that yet you will say we are seduced ? Are not you then the seducers ? We doe but practise that which you haue taught vs , If you would haue vs to returne vnto you , first iustify by the word of God , that people , ministerie , and worship , that you haue condemned : refute your owne writings ; and build againe the things which you haue destroyed . So when you haue made your selues trespassers , if we be not able by Gods word to proue that the things we refreyn from , are as bad as you haue writen ; we will , by his grace , come agayn vnto you . Til then , let the discreet reader m●nde , whither you deal not with us as did the horsmen of Aegipt with the Isra●lite● ; that after you hau● giuen us leav to depart , you thus persue vs with your writings , to bring vs back again to our ācient bondage . Again , whether you that pretend a separating in the church , & condemn our separating out of it though your Church be so throughly corru●t , as before is shewed and now call vs seduced : deserue not rather to be called your selues The seducing brethren of the separation . But let vs hear what it is you now say for your selues . On our part , consider , 1. THis separation that we make , is grounded . 1. On Gods comm●ndements , Matt. 15.14 . Rom. 16.17 . Eph. 5.7.11 . 2. Thes. 3. ● . 14.15 . Tim 6.5 . Tit. 3.10 . 1. Pet 4.4 . 2. On the examples of all the prophets , Apostles , & Christ himself who separated in the Church & not out of th' Ch● . albeit in most corrupt estat , & yet communicated in th●t which was good ; reprouing refusing & suffring for abst●yning from euill . Luk. 2 . 2● . 2 24 & 22.7.8.9 . Mat. 22 3. & . , 20 , & 6 , 1 2 5.16 & 11.16.17 18.9.20 . & . 12 31.34 39. & 23 totum . And ( note ) those Churches were Antanosaicall as you say ours are Antichristian : yet for as much 〈…〉 th● 〈◊〉 Christ , as ●ur Church doth at least , Luk 1 , 9 10 , Iob. 1 2●●1 . & 7 23.17 31 4● 42. & 10 , 24. Rom. 3 2.3 . & 9.4 . w●th Gen 49.10 A.t. 2 39. th●y separated not from them . Answer . IF by the C●mm●ndements of God , by the examples of Christ , his 〈◊〉 and A●●stles , we may & m●st separate from all corruptions mayn te●●ed in a tr●e Church : then ought we much more to separate from the● being maynteyned in a false ; vnle●se ; a false Church haue more priv●lige , t●en ● cr●e And we consider that our separation is from the corr●●ptiō : of ● false Church ; 2. The scr●ptures also are playn , that we must separate and forsake all false Churches , as well as corru●tions in a true , 2. Cor. 6 17. Come out from among them , and separate your s●lues saith the Lord , and touch no unclean th●ng , and I will receiue you . Reuelation . 18 4 Goe out of her my people , that ye receive not of her plagues . Hosea . 4.15 . Come not ye vnto Gilgal , neither give vp to Beth●ven ; and many the like How rightly then doe you allege scriptures , as if they taught vs separation in a Church onely , and not out of it also ; when it is false , and Idolatro●s ? 3. Yo●r selues are a president to vs of like practise , in separating not in but out of the Church of Rome : as yo● haue dealt with the mother , so doe we with the daughter ; because like mother like daughter , according to the prouerb ; Eze. 16.44 . 4. You allege th● examples of all the proph●ts ; yet shew you not any that ●al●ed by your r●le , to se●arate in the Church and not out of it . Wee are sure they called the people out of the Church of Israel when it was idolatrous , a●d forbad them to come at their a●semblies . Hos , 2.2.3.4 . & 4 15.17 Amos. 5.5 . And how they co●ld themselues joyn with that Church from which they separated others is strange ūto us ; especially cōsi●erin● that Israel in that estate , is noted by the pro●het Azariah to be with●ut the true God , without P●●ist to teach , ●nd wiht●ut law ; 1 , Chro. 15.3 and may we thinke , he separated not from that Church ; The Israelites th●n , sacr●●iced to Divils , not to G●● , Deut. 3● 17. Chron. 11.15 and wil yo● s●y the prophets separated not from them ? 5. The like I Answer to the examples of Christ and his Apostles ; who as t●ey absteyned from corruptio●s in the Ie●ish Church ; so were they q●●re sep●r●te● from all false Churches as the Sam●ritans and other like Mat 10 5. Ioh. 4.22 . Act. 2.40 . & 199 so the●r examples also , doe approue our practise . 6. W●ere as you would haue noted that those Churches ( which Christ and h●s Ap●stles co●●unicated with ) were Antianosaicall as yours we ●ay ar● 〈◊〉 : I 〈◊〉 t●e compar●son , For ● the Iewish Church consist●d it all , 〈…〉 the same , Leuit , 20 , 21.16 . ) of a people separated not onely from heathens , but also from f●lse professors , heretiks , and idolaters ; and were children of the prophets a●d couenant of God ; Iohn . 4.9 Act 3.25 . But your Church c●ns●steth ●f an vnseparated people , children of Idolatrous Priests , & strangers from the couenant of God. 2. The Iewes then , had their sacrifices , seruices and solemne feasts , according to Moses Law ; Mat 8.4 . Mar , 14.12 . Luk 9. ●O . & 2.21 , 24 and Chr●st himselfe j●st●f●ed the●r worship Ioh. 4.22 . but your seruice , worship , and f●stival● , are after Antichrists law , translated out of his masse-booke . 3. The●r Priests were according to Moses inst●tution , of Aarons line Luk , 1 , 5. with 1 Chro. 2.1 , 10 their Scribes and Pharisees , sate in Moses cha●re ; Mat 23.2 , your Priests after the Popes institution your prelates fit in Antichrist chair . So they wer not so much against Moses ; as you are aga●nst Christ : and that your Church reteyneth not the foundation Christ , shal through his grace anone be proued . The 2. Consideration . 2. OVR Church hath the essentiall notes of a true church , able to beget a true sauing faith , to worke the fruites of the spirit , to make a man a true and perfect Christian , and last of all to saue him . To the which also Christ hath tied his gracious promise and blessing to the end of the world Rom , 10 , 13 , 17 , Mat , 28 19.20 . Act , 20.32 . 2 Tim. 3.15.16 . 1. Tim. 4.16 Iam. 1.21 . Isa 55 , 11. Answer . THese notes which you propound , 1 are not the essentiall notes of a true Church : a neyther ( if they were , ) are they ordinariely found in your Church 1. These are not essentiall notes , because ; 1 One man may haue al this you speake of ; and no one man , is or can be a Church , for that consisteth of a multitude or nūber of persons it is an assembly or convocation ; joyntly together it is a body , and euery one severally is but a member . 1. Cor 12 , 20.27 , That one man may haue all your es●entiall notes , may appear in Pavls exa●ple , who was able to b●get a true sauing faith , to worke the fruites of the spirit , and so the rest . 1. Cor. 4 ●5 . Gal. 3 , 2 5. 2. An Angel may haue all the notes you mention ; and no Angel is a Church . For example , the Angel Gabriel , who was sent to giue Daniel knowledge and understanding , and preached liuly of Christs death , & the benifits thereof . Dan. 9.21.22 , &c 3. A wicked man may doe al that you speake of ; but no wicked man is a true church . Iudas sent forth with the other Apostles to preach and work miracles , might bring others to saluation by his doctrine , though h●mselfe were a re●robate Mat. 10.5 , 6. &c , 4. A true Church is the spowse & hous of Christ , & bringeth him forth a s●irituall seed . But , as God gaue the blessing of multi●lying childrē , onely a to lawfull maried estate , yet often it commeth to passe , through h●s almighty power and goodne●●e that harlots also are partakers of this ble●sing : and doe bring forth children : so the blessing of spirituall propagation , is peculiar to the true Church ; yet God , which brought light out of darknes , causeth some children to be borne and brought vp vnto him in false Churches For example ; the Church of Rome , ( the mother b of whordoms and abominations of the earth ) hath doubtles , since she was wedded to Antichrist , borne and brought vp , by the generall true grounds of Chrstian rel●geon taught in her , many children of God , and heyres of saluation , This I s●ppose your selues will not deny , neyther yet w●ll you say , that Rome is Christ true Church . Your reason then is , as if Thamer should haue pleaded , I am able to bear c●ildren , to nourse and br●ng them vp to mans estate , &c. therefore I am my Father Iudah● true and lawfull wife , Gen. 38 , 15.18 . &c. 2. Now if these were essent●all notes , which you haue set down : yet helpe they you nothing , for I deny that they ar ordinarily found in your Ch●rch . For , though I doubt not but the doctrine of your Church hath saued many : yet that is Gods extraordinary blessing , not the ordinarie effects of your Church . This is the thin● you should haue proued , by comparing yo●r Church and min●sterie with the Lawes and promises in Gods word : which because you haue not done , but onely quoted some scriptures generally ; which men of all religions may doe likeweise ; ) I will by one or two of the script●res that your selfe here ci●e , shew how vnlike you are to a true Church and Ministery . In Rom. 10.3.17 . th' Apostle treateth of two things , 1 of calling on the name of the Lord , and 2 of faith , by hearing his word . 1. Whosoeuer call th upon the name of the Lord shal be saued . This we are to understand according to Dauids exposition , whosoeuer calleth vpon him in truth . Psa. 145 18. for God is a spirit , and must be worshiped in spirit and tr●th , Ioh. 4.24 . but the worship and calling vpon God which your Church vseth , in reading the prayers letanie collects , and other like things of your Leiturgie , translated out of AntiChr●st masse-booke , is carnall false Idolatrous ; for such a manner of diuine service you haue no commandement or warrant in the scriptures . And this popish worship , begetteth not , but destroyeth faith and the true caling on God● name , and deceiueth mens sowles ; for in vayn they worship me ( sayth Christ , ) teaching f●r doctrine the precepts of men ; Mat. 15.9 , and , they that wayt vp●n ly●ng van●ties , forsake their own mercy . Ionah , 1 , 8 2. For the other poynt , Fa●th is by bearing ( or by c report ) saith the Apostle ; and proueth it by Isa. 53.1 . Lord who hath beleeued our be●ring ; that is , our report , Now no man can truly and faithfully report ●nlesse God hath first spoken vnto ●●m ; ne●ther can a●y man fru●tfully hear other report or doctrine then the Lords ; and so hearing is by the word of God , i● the mouthes of such as are sent , as he sheweth in the 15 verse . But you● Ministers are not truly and lawfully sent , ( for they cannot shew eyther calling , ordination , or office , according to Chr●sts Testament ; ) therefore they cannot truly and lawfully preach his word and consequently , cannot beget ( ordinarily ) a true sauing faith . The next scripture also Mat , 28 19 , 20 , playnly condemneth the state of your Church and minister●e : for , 1. There , is a lawfull calling , authorizing and sending ; of minister● from him that hath all power in heauen and in earth , saying Goe therfore and teach : but such a sending your ministers haue not ; for ( as your selues haue a sayd , ) they enter not in by Chrict but by a Popish and vnlawfull v●cation . 2. There , is a commandement to teach ( or make disciples , ) before they be receiued into th' Church by baptisme , for o● them that ar taught , such onely as gladly receiue and beleeue the word , are to be baptised and admitted into the Church . as the practise of th' Apostle sheweth , Act. ● , 40 41. but your Church was not thu● gathered or plāted by th' preaching of the Gospell : but by the commandement of the Magistrate : neither we● onely the willing beleevers receiued , and others refused ; but the whole profane multitudes wer admitted , or rather compelled into your church wher they and their seed are still ret●yned , 3. There , Gods Ministers are willed to teach Chr●stians so baptised to obserue all things whatsoeuer Christ commanded his Apostles verse . 20 , & so they haue his gracious promise and blessing to the end of the world : but in your church , many things are obserued which Christ neuer comma●ded . Yea the Ministerie and go●erment appoynted in his Testamēt , are held and confirmed by practise among you , not to be perpetual , not necessary , nor fitting for your state : but an other pompous min●stery , and Lordly ecclesiastical gouerment ; after the manner of the court of Rome . And as for power and liber●y to obserue Christ commandements , that is farr from your people , which al are in bondage to the Bishops and their courts ; hauing not chr●stian freedom to censure sinne or sinners or practise the ordinances of the Gospel , as the Apostles did vnlesse Princes and Parliaments will permit or command them . The like may be sayd , and returned vpon you , from the other scriptures by you alleged ; all which do● concerne the true church and ministerie , as your selues will not deny : and so will helpe you nothing vntill you proue your church and ministerie such , Boast not therefore of a true sauing faith and fruites of the spirit ; when such bitter fruites and works of the flesh , doe reign among you : for faith without works 〈◊〉 d●ad . Iam. 2.26 . Now then , if you will giue us leaue to consider the state of your Church aright , we would mind it thus . your Church hath the essentiall notes of a false Church . namly a confuse prophane worldly people , with an Antichr●stian Prelacie , and preisthood over them ; able to beget ordinarily , but a vayne and dead faith , through want of the true ministery of the word in Christs ordinance , and by meanes of the false worship and false doct●nes that are in your Church ; to worke the fruits of the flesh , as the idolatries and other sinful actions abounding in your Church doe shew ; to make a man a very Antichristian , by resisting persecuting and blaspheming , the true way of Christ and practise of his Gospel ; ( which alas , too many doe , ) and last of all to destroy him . if he repent not of his sinne●●nd find mercie with the Lord. which we desire you all may finde , for the saluation of your soules . The 3. Consideration . OVr Church and ministerie , are approved of and rejoyced for , of all the pure reformed Churches in the world . Our confession by them placed in the Harmonie of Confessions ; gi●ing vs the right hand of fellowship : as also by all the godly learned , and most sound and excellent fathers & lights of the chur●h , that euer liued in or meddle with our church ; Bucer Mar●yr , Fagius , Alasio , Knoxe , who liued ●n our church ; Caluin , Beza , Bullinger , Gualt●r , ●yml●r , Zanchius , Iunius , Rolocus &c. with others verie many , who haue giuen their testimony and approbation to our church and ministerie . Wherin if our errors were fundamentall , damnable and Antichristian , ( as you terme them , ) these churches and persons had vndoubtedly the spirit of discerning . and could not be deceiued all at once . 1. Cor. 11 , 16. & 14.33 . & ● . 15 . & . 10.15 & 14.32 , 37 , 2. Thes. 1.4 . Answer . THough you come against vs with horsemen and charrets , yet we a will ●emember the name of the Lord our God ; by whose word alone all doctrines must be tried all persons must ●udge and be iudged . It is incident to the best men and purest churches , to erre and be deceiued wherefore their sentences and approbations , must be examined by Gods word . If you say otherweise you teach corrupt and popish doctrine . With such weapons as these , haue the Papists long fo●ght against you , and where you can bring one , they can bring many to witnesse for them and their Romish superstitions . b Antiquity , vniversality , and s●ch l●ke popular reasons . they seek to vphold their kingdome withall : 2. The word of God condemning your church and ministerie , ( as we haue often proued ; and our proofes ly vpon you yet unanswered ; ) though all churches in the world , should a●proue of you , your case wer ●o whit the better ; for all men are vanity . 3. The Iewes obie●ted as weighty a● arg●m●n● aga●●●t C●ri●t him selfe , whe● they sayd , d●th any of the rulers or of the Pharise●s 〈◊〉 in him , but this people which know not the Law , are ●ursed . I●h 7 , 1● . 19 . 4. If the reformed Church's ap●roue so well of you● Church and minister●e , they are n●● onely against vs but against themselues : for theyr own C●●rches consist of ● separated and voluntary people , wheras yo●rs are co●fused and compelled ; they condemn and haue re●e●ted the hierarchie and ministerie of Archbishop● , Lord bisho●s &c. Pr●ests , Parso●s , Vicars &c. which are yet among you and ha●e amon● them an●ther ministerie . Now how they can ap●roue of two sorts of Churches & m●n●ster●es , so contrary one to another , let them look to ●t . 5. It seemeth to me , you are verie lau●sh in your praise , which now vaunt so of the a●probation and reioycing of al the ●ure refor●ed Churches in the world : whereas heretofore you complayned that you had a all the b●st ref●rmed Ch●r●hes through●ut Ch●istendom ag●inst you . Agayn the Harmony that you mention , was set forth but by the French and Belgick churches ; the things that they approue among you , are certayn general heads of religeon which a B●shop wrote in an Apologie of your Church : most of all which heads , we our selues also approue and reioyce for But the controuersies between you and vs , touching the gathering and constituting of a Church ; the manner of divine seru●ce ; the form of Church government , and the like ; are eyther not at all , or in very generall termes set down in that bo●ke : and so uerie slenderly , if ought at all , by them a●proued or reioyced for . To giue an instance or two ; in the tenth section of that H●rmony , treating of the Ch●rch , your English confession is so shor● and in generall words , I doubt not b●t the Pope himselfe will subscribe vnto it , letting him haue his own interpretation . In the 15 section of Eccl●sias●icall me●tings ; you speake of prayer , in the tongue which all yo●r people vnderstand . Now because the Reformed churches approue of thi● , we must take it belike , that they approue of your Leiturgie and service book also , and al your publick worship , though it be not set downe f●r any to judge of . In the 16. section , of Holy day's , fasts &c. there yo● wri●e ag●inst purgatory ; which being put into the Harmonie , i● ynough ( as seemeth ) to proue that other ch●rches approue of al your Pope holy-dayes and festiuals . The l●ke may be minded for other poynts , as in the 17. section for ceremonies & things indifferent ; which being approued of and reioyced for by all the Reformed churches in the world ; the Prelat●s w●l haue a shrewd hand against you that are called Puritans , for standing so much against the ceremonies of your Church , as you do· And for your min●stery , I marveil you say not that , it is approued of and r●i●yced for of the Pope also , for in the 11. section of that Harmony , you beleeue these orders and degrees of ministers in the Church , 1 Deacons . 2 Priests , and 3 Bishops ; which orders , wehther the Reformed Churches appro●e of or no , I am sure the Counsel of Trent doth , and hath decreed , If any shall say , that in the Catholik Church there is not a Hirarchie instituted by diuine ordination , which consisteth of Bishops . and Priests and a ministers , let him be ●ccurs●d . Concil . Trident. Sess 23. Can. 6. But now seeing not onely the Fathers of the Counsel of Trent , but all reformed Churches in the world , ( as you sayd , doe approue of and reioyce for this your ministerie ; I hope the Bishops and hirarchie of your Church shall no more be preached & writen against by your inferior Priests , ( as many a day they haue been , ) as being Antichr●st●an . Thus may you see what a weak foundation , you bring for your church and ministerie ; and if we lyfted to fight against you with your own weapons ; we could allege many things from the persons whome you cite ; against your present church and ministery : but the word of God yeeldeth vs armour ynough for this battell against you , as in due t●me through his grace shall be seen . 6. In the meā while , it shal not be amisse to put the reader in mind , how your selues heretofore haue iudged and written of your ministerie , which you say it is approued of and rei●yced for , of all the pure reformed churches in the world . your ministers being ( as before is noted , Deacons , Priests and Bishops ; Of the Deacenship you haue written , that b it is a meer humane institution , a degree to the Priesthood , and nothing like to the ordinance of God. Of Priests &c. that c they cam from the Pope . as out of the Troian horses belly to the destruction of Gods kingdom . Of the Bishops &c. that d you account them no natural members of the body of Christ church becauase they are of humane addition , not borne with her , nor grown up with her from the cradle , Agayne e that they be rather members of the strumpet of Rome , then of the spouse of the Lamb &c. And haue not you & the reformed Churches great cause now to reioyce for this ministery . 7. Moreouer consider you also , how we may allege , that now 10. yeares sithence , we have published our Confession of faith , and causes of our separation from your Church and ministery , to the learned Vniversities of the Reformed churches ; with desire if in our faith or practise we erred , that they would shew it vs : but to this day , we know not any that haue vndertaken so to doe : wherefore we also may suppose by their silence , that they approue our case or at least suspend their iudgments and condemne , vs not . 8. Finally , it is written in one of the scriptures that you quote , the spirituall man iudgeth all things , but he himselfe is iudged of no man ; 1 Cor. ● , 15. Now every true Christian is a spirituall man Gal. 6. 1. 1 Pet 2.5 . therfore he may judge and discerne by Gods word and spirit , faith from here sie , and the true church from the false ; he may see with his eyes & liue by his own faith , and not depend vpon other men , to liue & walk in sin till other churches condemne it . Let every man therfore retayn his liberty , and take heed how he iudgeth . 4. THe onely wicked Pa●ists , Ath●ist , and most ungodly ones : are aduersaries to our godly ministers and people . The godly in all plac●s and times among vs , by them alone an● ordinarily ha●e been conuerted vnto Christ , and by them appro●ed , reu●renced , and obeyed alwayes in the Lord. Answer . 1. IF the onely wicked be adversaries , to your Godly ministers and people ; it perteyneth not to us , who hate none of you , b●t wish well and pray for you al ; euen for our persecutors we are aduersaries onely to the sinns , & corruption● that are among you ; & whiles we repro●e you for ●inne , you should ●ud●e that we loue , and hate you not , as the a law te●cheth . We say therefore with the Apostle ; are we become your enemies because we ●ell ●ou the truth ? Gal. 4 16. 2 , The Atheists and wicked one● that so hate your godly ministers and people ; are the● not also m●●bers of yo●r owne Church ? So then your church is diuided against it selfe , and you are aduers one to another . And why tel you vs of this , as a consideratiō to reduce us to your church , when we because such Atheists & wicked ar ( cōtrary to Gods wil ) suffred among you , doe separate from your Church ? 3. Agayn , who be those godly ministers and people you mean ? If such as are called Puritans ; they haue ( I suppose ) moe adversaries the● freinds in your church ; yea the publick state , alwes and canons of your church are against them , and all that know the truth of God , and the●r estate aright , haue just cause to blame them for the●r long halting and dissembling . If the Prelates be those godly min●sters , they haue in regard of their vnlawfull places and proceedings ; many good people for their aduersaries , both within and without the land , and your selues also which suffer for s●paration in your church . By neither of these two contrary factions among you , ar men ordinarily conuerted unto Christ , both sorts setting your selues against the true way of Chr●st for gathering and gouernmen● of the Church , and worship of God ; and so do hinder mens saluation , and deser●e to be not approued , but reproued in the name of the Lord. The 5. Consideration . 5. GOD hath giuen witn●● for the truth of our ministerie , by the vndoubted t●stimony of his gracious presence and approbation of the same ; by his gifts of 1. sanctifi●ation . 2 knowledge . 3 spirit of discerning . 4. of vtterance . 5 of power and authority in teaching , 6 effectuall and ordinarie ●alling and begetting to the fai●h of God , and bringing them from darkn●s to light , from the old man to the n●w , from the fl●sh vnto the spirit ; which ministery of ours ; begat you ●lso , if ever you were tru●y b●gotten in the spirit , & by Gods m●rcie hath begotten me , & other h●s vnworthy seruants . Answer 1. THe Papists will say as much as all this and more too , ( if words will ser●e● for the ministery of their church ; they boast of the●r Friers , & Iesu●ts holines , knowledge , utterance & authority in teaching and their maruelous effects in conuerting to Christianity , the Indians & other ●e●thens all ouer the world Yea what religeon , glorieth not in t●e sanctitie , gifts and effects of their ministerie ? But Gods word must try all . 2. The ministerie of ●our Church being Archbishops , L. Bishops , Deanes , Archdeacons , &c Priests , and Deacons , as is to be seen in the books statutes , and canons of your church : you br●ng not here any one word of God , or text of scriptures ( which are his testimonies , ) to witnes for the truth of your ministery : and this is indeed worthy to be considered of vs & of al that shall read your Considerations 3. Your own brethren heretofore confessed and complayned to the Parliament , that you a lack in England a right ministery of God ; that the ministers are neith●r proued , elected , called , nor ordeyned , according to Gods word . This testimonie being true , how then doth God giue witnes for the truth of your ministery . 4. The witnes●es that you bring , if they be examined , wil say little ar nothing to this purpose . For , 1. The gift of santification , is a common note of Christianity , 1. Thes. 4.3 . 1 Pet. 2.9 . and therefore no speciall note of a ministery . This was Korahs argument when he would haue vsurped the Priesthood . All the congregation is holy euery one of them : why may they not therefore be Pr●ests ? Num. 16.3.10 . But what saith the scripture ? No man taketh th●● honour to himselfe but he that is called of God , as Aaron was . Heb. 5.4 . 2.3 . The second and third 2 knowledge , 3 of the spirit of discerning , are also generall for the whole church , and not speciall for the ministerie ; Rom. 15.14 . Phil. 1.10 . Yea some in the flock , may have a greater measure both of sanctification and of knowledge ; then the Pastor or teacher or any Officer It cannot be denied but Barsabas had knowledge as wel as Matthias ; yet was he not therefore an Apostle , Act. 1.23.26 . and they whose genealogies could not be found , had knowledge as wel as the other Pr●ests yet were they not ther●fore kept in the Priesthood , Ezra 2.62 . Boast not you therefore of your knowledge , but shew vs yo●r genealogies in the script●res There be a great many in your ministerie called dumb Priest● wh●ch are but bare readers , by whose meanes many people perish for want of knowledge : these testimon●es will be dumb for them ; yet your ●●urch proclaymeth them to , be ●rue ministers . Your best minister● , of whose knowledge you boast , shew themselu●● ignorant ; ( or worse , ) in the 〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉 ●lanting of a church wh●les ; they will haue it ( as their ●ractise proueth ) with commix●●re of al form without separation : wherea● they cannot shew any true church since the beginning of the world , but was of a separa●ed people . Gen. 61.2 . & 12 1. L●v , 20.23.24 . Ezr. 6 21. Act. 2 , 40.41 . & . 19 : 9. &c. 4. 5. The fowrth and fift , 4. vtt●rance , with 5 power & authority in teaching , are needfull in such as are ministers , but no nece●sarie proof of a true ministerie . For had not the false Apostles and Prophets . utterance and power ; that preached w●th eloquence and wisdom of words d●sgracing the Apostles and Prophets of the Lord ? 2 Cor. 10.10 . & . 11.13.15 . 1. Kin. 22. ●4 . Ier. 23.31 . & . 28.1.2.10 , 11. 2 Tim. 3.8 . Your ministers , many preach not at al many preach to mayntain the pompous prelacie , & laudable ceremonies of your Church : and they that pr●ach best , shew little power or authority For how many yeers haue they been preaching for Discipline , and against some corruption● of your church ? yet nothing preuailed , but are further now at last then they were at the first . Who knoweth not that the prelates haue closed vp the mouthes of many Ministers , that the prophesie of Esaias is verified vpon them ; Isa. 56.10 . and yet you boast of the●r utterance & au●hority in teaching . But lamentable ministers are they ●ll ; and the best of them may be seen to be but briers ; and to haue betrayed the authority of Christ ; For when they took the Order of Priesthood as they call it , they solemnly promised euen before the Lord , and by his help , that a they would giue their faithfull diligence alwayes so to minister the doctrine and sacraments and the discipline of Christ as the Lord hath commanded , & as this realm hath receiued the same . according to the commandements of God so that they mought teach the people committed to their care and charge w●th all diligence to keep & obseru● the same . They promised also , b reuerently to obey their ordinary & other chief ministers is to whom the gouernmēt & charg is commited ou●r them , following with a glad mind and will their godly admoni●ion , and submitting thēselu●● to their godly ju●gement . Yet your forward preachers ( as they are esteemed , ) doe not minister the doctrine sacraments and discipline of Christ as th● Lord hath commanded ; but sue and wait for authority from the Mag●strate , to haue that wh●ch they count the true discipline of Christ erected in the●r parishes ; which because the ciuill Magistrate doeth not they practise not the discipline , nor teach their people to keep and obserue the same yea they blame us for pract●sing Christs lawes withou● the Magistrates leaue , as if Christ wer not head of the church , & Prince of all the Kings of the earth . Again they administer not their doctrine sacraments and discipline , as this realm hath receiued , neither reuerently obey their Ordinaries , but resist , preach and write against the Bishops , their canons , rites and ceremonies . as much as they dare Thus halt they between two opinions , and practise neither the discipline of Chr●st nor of the prel●tes whiles ; yet they would seem to pract●se both : being in this poynt like to the Sa●aritans , which whiles they would both a fear the Lord and serue the●r images also , they b neither feared God , nor did after their or●inances , as the scriptures sayth . What then may we esteem of your ministers p●wer and authority in teaching A●aine , c●nsider you if some Absolom , Adonia● , or other vsurper , should say ; I haue 1 sanctification , 2 knowledge , 3 spirit of d●scerning , 4 of ●ttera●ce , 5 of power and authoritie in iudging , 6 effectual & ordin●rie decidind & ending of controuersies &c therefore I am a lawfull King , Iudge or Magistrate ; and God hath giuen witnesse by these vnd●●bted test●monies , of the truth of my Magistracie : whether this ●lea wo●ld serue him , or these testimonies approue his office ? yet are these most ●regnant proofs of your Min●stery . 6. The 6. and last testimonies is , their effectual & ordinary calling and b●getting to the faith of God , &c. This I haue before touched and shewed that ordinarily they beget not , but hinder the true faith : they keep the people in bl●ndenes and idolatrie , wh●ch is a worke of darknes and of c the flesh ; and if by their preaching any be brought to the true faith , I account it Gods extraordinary work , which I doubt not but is also a●ōg the Papist . Againe , if this were granted them , I would know what office they would claym i● the church hereby ; whether Apostleship of some other function . For in the Church of Corinth were many teachers and instructours yet begat they not their ●eople to the fa●th , for the Apostle Paul challengeth to be their father only , and to ha●e begotten them in Christ through the gospel . 1. Cor , ● . 15 . So there may be a lawfull Pastor or Teacher in a church , which neuer begat any of them to the faith , but onely nourisheth and increaseth faith in them , that were begotten afore He is chosen to feed the flock . 1. Pet. 5. ● . not to begett the same ; the flock is a company of faithfull people , begotten before they haue a Past●r . The begetting of faith , was first and chiefly by the Apostles and Evang●l●sts , that went about preach●ng the word , to them that had not heard it . Rom. 15 , 20.21 . It ●s also by the ministers of churches , or prophets ; ( though not in office of ministerie , ) wh●n vnbeleeuers come into their ass●mblies , 1 Cor. 14.24.25 . It is also by all Christians priuately me● and women which preaching and witnessing the truth of the Gospell , reading talking , conferring of the script●res , doe conuert many unto God informe their children and families in the faith , and saue their soules , Act 8.4 : & . 18 ●6 1 Cor. 7.16 . Eph. 6 4. Deut. 6.7 . S● the begetting of fa●th , is no certaine testimony of a true Min●sterie . Whereas therefore you conclude , that your Ministery begat us also , if ever we wer● tr●ly begotten in th● spirit : we may answer yov with Moses d ●e take to mu●h vpon you . y● sons of Levi. For know you not the wind bloweth where it li●teth , and you hear the sound thereof , but cannot t●l whence it commeth or whether it goeth ; and a so is euery man that is bor● of the spirit ? It seemeth you count nothing preaching but that which is in the pulpit ; nothing the word of God , but that which commeth out of your Ministers lips : but thanks be unto God that hath giuen vs better to discerne the worke of his grace , and hath breathed vpon vs with his holie spirit ; whiles your Ministers stood lik the 4. Angels in the corners of the earth , holding the windes that they should not blow . The 6 Consideration . 6. ALso our godly people haue all the marks and tokens of Gods people and elect , 1 which the scriptures set downe , 2 which the people in the tim● of Christ and his Apostles had , 3 which the professors of any church that is now in the world haue , 4 yea which your selues in your supposed perfection can boa●● of : which is sealed vnto them , 1 by the care , peace , and testimony of a good conscience in all things . 2 by suffring for sundrie parts both of righteousnes and 〈◊〉 3 by effectual comforts in such suf●rings , 4 ass●rance of faith , of hope , of remission of sinns ; Gods dear loue vnto them ; 5 by spiritual loue and th● fruits thereof , 6. by the progresse and daylie growth in knowledge strength and godliness● &c. Answer . THAT many of your people are Gods elect , I vndoubtedly acknowledge : and I would to God such were the estate of you euery one . Yet the constitution of your people in your church , is not a Communion of Saincts with which we may participate : but a confuse mixture of all sorts of men from which the godly must separate , as touching the worship of God. In this your defence of them , you begin thus , Our Godly people , Bu● who ar they , can we tel ? are not al your people godly ? of the true church it is written , b thy people shal be al righteous if your people be not such ? why make you not a separation from the vngodly , that will not be reclaymed ; or why cast you them not out from among you ? Thus ought you to doe by the Testament of Christ. 2. Cor. 6.14.17 . 1. Cor. 5.13 , If you doe it not , you profane Gods everlasting couenant . I deny not but many hypocrites and reprobates wil creep into the true church ; and much vngodlinesse will their break out , as in any assembli● in the world : but when it is seen , the sinner is presently to be reproued ; and eyther must purge himselfe by repentance , or be excommunicate . Luk. 17.3 . Mat , 18.15.16 17. Thus still the church continueth a com●union of Saincts , an vnleauened lump , a holy nation . 1 Cor. 1 , & . 5. ● . 1 Pet. 2 9. Now for your works and t●k●ns ; you say they have all 1 which the scriptures set ●r●w . This is denied , and had you searched the scriptures ▪ you might easilie haue seen it otherweise . For ; They are not a separate● people called out from the world : which is o●e pr●ncipal ●ark , ( as before I haue shewed , ) vrged often in the scriptures . 1. King. 8 53. Isa. 52 . 1● . Ier , 15.19 . Ioh. 17.14.16 , Reu'18 . 4 . They are not the Lords free people , injoy●ng the libertie of the gospell : but in thraldom to strange Lord a●d lawes ecclesiastical . Contrary to L●uit . ●5 . 42.55 . 1 Cor. 7. ●3 . Ioh , 8 , 32 36 Gal. 5 1. They walk not in the truth of the gospel ; but in many things ar corrupted with the remainders of po●ish s●perst●ons and idolatrie . Contrarie , to Psal. 26.3 . 3 Ioh 3 , 4. Rom. 6 , 4. Ephe , 2 , 10. 1 Cor , 10 , 14 . 2● . Reu. 14 , 9.12 . In these and many other particulars , your , people are contrary to the scriptures : so the pr●ncipall marks are wanting . 2 Next you compare th●m with the profess●rs of any church new in the world This is more bol●lie then wiselie spoken of you : shew if you can any reformed church , whose people are like yours , for ●●rr mixt●re of al sorts or in l●ke bondage to Antichr●stian ●relates ; or that use like superstions and idolatries in the worship of God , and dailie conversation . Remember also what some of your selues haue written heretofore ; how that a Of all the nations that , haue rencunced that whore of Rome th●re ïs none in the world so farre out of square , as England , in reteyning the Popish hierarchie . Your last comprison is with ourselues , whome you twite with supposed perfection : wherein you iniurie vs , and yet help not your selues . For we suppose no perfection at al to be in vs , eyther in knowledge or practise but are priuie to our selues of our infirmities ; ; and are sure we haue more also then b we can discerne . Yet by the grace of God we are that we are and his grace is not in vaine in us , but as it hath brought vs out of confusion bo●dage and Idolatrie , wh●rein your people still remayn , so we trust it will keep vs in the truth of the gos●el , vntil we come to perfection in the kingdome of our father which is in heauen . 3. Next you speak of the sealing hereof vnto your people , 1. By the care , peace and testi●●ny of a good conscience in al things . what care can be seen in such confused carelesse walking of your people , commixt in one bodie , with the profane and serpents seed ? what peace of conscience can there be , when men doe walke in open transgression of Gods law except such as whereby a man falsely bles●eth himselfe , saying I shal haue peace , although I walke according to the stubbornes of my own hart ? Deut. 29 , 19 , There is no peace sayth the Lord , vnto the wicked , Isa. 48.22 . The waies of your people being wicked , their spirituall actions idolatrous it must needs be a blind or corrupt conscience that testifieth for thē in this estate . 2.3 . Their 2 suffrings , and 3 effectual comforts in them ; we will beleeu when we see them . For the present , we behold many of your peopl● for auoyding the crosse of Christ to subm●t to the Idolatries of your Church against their owne conscience and confe●sion , Very few that will suffer for any part of the truth but none at al that suffer for all , except such as forsake your confused assemblies . And if one or two in a shire , doe suffer a litle trouble , for not being buxome enough to the Prelates and their co●rts : what is that to j●stify the prophane multitudes and generall state of your people , which are readier to p●rsecute , then to suffer persec●tion for r●ghteousnes sake ; as we haue had l●●entable experience these m●ny yeires . W●●refore , as their suffrings , so I think their Comforts are . 4 , Their assur●nce of faith , of hope , of remission of sinns ▪ and of Gods dear loue unto th●● ; may wel be boaste● of , but not soundlie felt . For where so many evil works doe abound and reigne , there is not true faith , and consequently no ●●re hope of remi●sion of sinns . Shew vs therefore your faith by your works for we c●nnot see your harts . Bnt this we find in the scriptures , that yo●r for●fathers ; when the Prophets re●ro●ed the● for their sinns , wo●ld vaunt as you do an● lean vpo● the L●rd a●d ●ay , is not the Lord a●ong vs ; no euill can come up●n vs. Mic. 3 11. This gl●rying of inward graces when outward transgre●sions doe prevaile : is meer delusion ; common with all sorts and sects of religion . Even the h●rlot can boast of her peace offrings , Pro 7.14 . and the Ph●risee thanketh God , that he is not as other men Luk. 18 11. 5 Their spritual loue and fr●ites thereof , let them record th●t haue tasted of . It is wel known in the land , how many of Gods children hau● been empouerished , afflicted , tormented , by long and lamentable imprisonment vexation and spoile of goods , exile and other like meanes women left widowes , and children fatherlesse . How your godlie people haue visited comforted and releiued them ▪ is not so wel knowne : it may be their charitie hath been in secret , and their left hand knoweth not what their right hath done . Wherefore you needed not haue offred this to our consideration , who are so ūaquainted with their loue : let them selus rather cōsider how they shal answer whē they com to that howr mētioned , Mat. 25.34 35.41 , 42. &c. If you think they haue shewed loue to their freinds and fauourites ; that will procure them but little thank , euen sinners and publicans doe the same . Luk. 6.32.33 . &c. 6 , Their progresse and dayly growth in knowledge strength ▪ & godlinesse , is ill seen in the estate they stand ; there being at this day rather moe gross abominations vrged and observed in your publick assemblies , then haue been heretofore ; and your ch●rch further from reformation now in the end , thē was at the begin●●●● : that vnlesse you come to walke as your brethren of th● separation , and quite abandon the hope of reforming Babel ; it wil shortly a●pear t●at all your labours be but s●iders webs ; and your expectation vanitie and vexation of spirit The 7. Consideration Consider how God hath witnessed his loue and approbation to our church , 1 by many victories and deliuerances from the enimies of Christ , 2 long continuance of the g●spel among us 3 strang iudgments on the enimies & persec●t●rs of the gospel . 4 the power and blessing in casting out Diuils . 5 prayer heard both in spirituall and earthly things , 6 by throwing down the Chur●● of 〈◊〉 , and building of the Church of God , by preaching , disputing and printing of many excellent works and volumes puplished of all sorts ▪ which non● of you in anything haue ever yet atteyned , but onely to threw down Gods church to raise ●●ssention among brethren , to rent the church , to distract the ignorant , to af●ord the weak ▪ to hinder the cause of ref●rmation , to bear false witnesse against your brethren , and belye the holy ordinances of God. Answer . 1. IF many victories and deliuerances , be an vndoubted testimony of Gods loue and approbation of a people and their religeon ; then 〈◊〉 might wel haue boasted of his religion , who conquered seventy Kings and made thē gather bread vnder his table . Iudg. 1.7 . Then Raisak hs reason was good , which he alledgeth against the Israel t● , f●r that he had conquered so many nations 2 Kin 18 , 33·34 , 35· If on the Turks at this day , may triumph ouer Christian religeon , becaus they haue warraye● a great part of the world‘ & takē from Christiās ●any k●ngd●mes and ●rouinces . Yea this verie reason did heathen men her●tof●re allege for d●fence of pagan ●me , as that a by it Rome had been kept agai●st 〈◊〉 , and ●ther ●ne●ies : and , that b therefore Rome had got the Emp●r● of all provinces and parts of the world ; because , it worshiped and served . 〈◊〉 ●o●s that were in the w●rld , even the vnknown Gods also . I would wish you therefore to minde better ground for the truth of religion : and reme●ber what is written of the ancient Babylonians : after their victories ; Th●n shall they take courage , & transgresse and doe wickedly imputing this their power vnto their Gods ▪ Habak . 1.11 . 2. The long continuance of the g●spel among you , will make the more aga●nst you at the day of your accounts because you yeld no better obedience to the gospell as your present idolatrous estate sheweth . The gospell was among the men of the c old world ; 120 , yeares taught by Noah , a preacher of righteousnes ; yet at last they perished by the stood for their disobedience : therefore though it hath been with you , about halfe that time , you also ●ay perish , if you repent not . But ( note ) you take it for granted which is yet to be proued , that the gospel is among you : whereas the true peach●ng and practise thereof , you cannot endure . The sound of the Gos●el , by th● f●et of them that puplish peace , is this Thy God o Sion reignet● ; ● Iudah keep thy solemne feasts perforrme thy vowes , for the wicked shall no more passe through thee ( he is utterly out off . Isa. 52 , 7 , Nahum . 1.15 . with Rom. 10 15. but Christ reigneth not yet among you by his own officers and law●s , ( as hath been confe●sed by the best of your Ministers ; ) you keep the sol●mn feasts of Ant●christ , as your Christmas . C●n●elinas , H●llo●●as Ea●●●r , and many the like ; and the wicked at still in the midds of you , and w●lk on e●ery side ; yea are exalted ; which Da●id saith is a forme for the sons of m●n . Psal. 12.8 . 3. The strange iudg●●nts on ●nimies and persecutors , are good warnings for you that you persecute your b●ethren no longer : we haue seen & minded some , vpon no mean men ●mong you ; but wish not to see more we rather desire the conuersion of our enim●es . 4. The power and blessing in casting out Diuils , ( though it may be questioned whether it be so or no in your Church , ) is a thing that the Papists can boast of more then you . See their late supplication 37. reason of religion . Secondly , such Diuils as are said to dwel in Babylon , Reu. 18 , 2. we playnly see you haue no power to cast out . 3 I would wish you to remember the words of Christ , Many will say to me in that day ; Lord Lord , haue we not by thy name pro●hesied . and by thy name cast out diuils &c. and then will I professe to them I neuer knew you depart from me . ye that work iniquity . Mat. 7.22.23 . 5 For your prayer heard both in spiritual and earthly things take heed you deceiu not your selues ; many years haue you prayed & fasted for your discipline and pretended reformation ; but how you haue bene heard , your present state sheweth . As for earthly things , if God giue them vnto you , it is no sound proof that he approueth your praiers , much lesse your church . Some evil mens eyes a stand out for fatnes , they haue more then the hart desireth ; but b their wealth is not in their hand , there for● the councel of the wicked be farr from me . God heard the praier of the King of the Philistims ; Gen 20.4.6 , he answered at the sacrifices of the sooth sayer Balaam ; Num , 23 , 3 , 4 , 15 , 16. &c , shal we think God therefore allowed of their religion ? Againe , what people in the world is not perswaded and will not say that God heareth their praiers ? Euē the hethens would boast thus of their false Gods ; as Iulian protested that c Aes●ulapius had often healed him being sick : and d Ovid , that he had often seen Iupiters anger appeased with incense . &c. See you not then , that as the Saincts when they walk vpright before the Lord , haue assurance , and sound comfort thereby that be e heareth their praiers which they make according to his will : so hipocrites and ethniks haue also their false perswasions that their praiers are heard and vaine comforts according ? Vaunt not therefore of your praiers being ●eard , so long as you doe works which are to be abhorred but remember how it ●s written , whoso●uer we ask , we receiue . ( of God , because w● ke●p his 〈◊〉 , and doe those things that are pleasing in his sight . Heb. 3.21 . 6. Your throwing down the church of Antichrist , and building the church of God , by ●reaching , &c. is according to the prouerb , a Clowdes and wind without 〈◊〉 . Let your brethren be witnesses ; Of the first they say , b Antichrist raigneth amongst you : Of the latter , that c as yet you are scarse come to 〈…〉 a church rightly reformed , and againe ; that d the wals of Sion he euen with the ground . Yet now you vaunt of throwing down Antich●●●●s ●hur●h and building Gods. The Martyrs in Q Maries daies did indeed by their faithfull testimonies and patient suffrings , throw downe a great part of Antichrist church but sithence that time , what haue you doen , unlesse it hath been to repayr Iericho ? For many grosse abuses which those Martyrs abhorred , are now st●fly mainteyned and practised in your church : but farther thē they went , haue you not stepped a foot & if some of your inferiour ministerie , haue spokē or writtē against a few foolish ceremonies ; yet others of your chiefest ministers haue written as much for them , that what superstition your church pulleth downe with the left hand , it setteth vp with the right . The Prelates and their side haue written against you that seek reformation of Babel : and they both haue set against vs that make separation from Babel : and yet you heer offer to our consideration , how you haue builded Sion . But the Lord wil visit both you & your building ; then shall your reword be according to your works . In the end you ease yo●r stomach against vs , as they that throw downe Gods church , raise dissention , with many moe greeuous calumniations , which in your distempered affection you throw forth . More wisdome , and much more modestie had it been , if you had spared these reproches til you had convinced vs of such things . But I see how your zele did carie you Ezekiah threw downe the idolatrous places in Israel ; and reduced the people vnto Gods true worship 2 Chro 31.1.2 , &c. & 30.1.2 &c. Rabsaketh reproched him for this , as hauing done sacrilege against his own God. Isa. 36.7 We , by the word of our testimonie , throw downe your idolatrous high places , superstitions , ceremonies , false worship and m●nister●e you charge vs w●th throwing downe God●s church , and lode vs with many criminations . But it is your selues that trouble Israel ; for doe we ●eproue you for any good thing in doctrine or practise ; or haue we left any truth that is among you ; And if by our testimonie of the gospel , diss●ntion be raysed and your church rent , the ignorant distracted & weak offended : blame not vs which testifie the truth , but your selues and such as re●ist it . Thinke you that Chr●st came to giue peace on the earth ? he hath told you may but rather debate . For fiue in one howse shal be , di●ided , three against two and two against three , father against sonn mother against d●ughter : and e ble●sed is he that shall not be offended in Christ When the Temple of God is opened in heauen , & the ark of his couen●●t seen therein there are lightnings , and voyces , and thundrings , & earthquak● , and much bayl . Thinke it not strange then , if troubles doe follow follow the preaching of the Gospell ; neither impute your own faults vnto vs : but submit your necks vnto the yoke of Christ , least he * send out his arrowes and scatter you . and increase lightnings and destroy you . How your churches ●state hat● been iustified by you , the reader may se by that you haue brought ? and how far we are from your vnchristian calumnies shall further app●a● , by the help of God , in the answer to your other Considerations , that now next follow . On your part , consider , 1 , YOur Separation is very strange , vnboard of in any age of the Church , hauing no shew of warrant from Gods word , eyther by commandement or example . Answer . YOV would not call our separation strange , if your selfe were not a stranger from the common wealth of Israel . What age was there euer in the world , since light was separated from darknes ; that heard not of separation from the false Ch●rch , the fast man Adam saw it . in the separation † of Seths poster●ty from Caines . Noah did the like ” in Sems posteritie from Chams . Abraham was * called out of Chaldee : ‡ Lot out of Sodom : Israel , out of † Aegipt and ” Babel ; faithfull Iudah † from rebellious Israel ; Christs disciples , * from faithle●●e Iewes and Gentiles ; and all the Lords people . † from your confused Babylon Yea God him selfe did first teach it when he made a separation between the w●mans seed and the Serpents , Gen. 3. ●5 . And yet you say , it hath no shew of warrant from Gods word Hereafter I supp●se you will say so no more , but wil see if you can proue your selues a tr●e Church , meet to be communicated withal : which when you doe , we by Gods grace will returne vnto you . The 2. Consideration . 2 , THE poynts in difference between vs and you did arise at first from persons , in whome God t●stified against your present causes , 1 Mr. Bolton hanged himselfe ; ● Mr. Brown revolted and came back from you ; 3 Mr. Pe●ry , Barrow , and Greenwood were hanged ; 4 Mr. I●hnsons and the rest banished : and ( note ) not by heathen and Ant●christian tyrants , as were true Martyrs of Christ , but by Christian Magistrat's prof●ssing and maynt●yning the Gospell of Christ. Besides your principal pillars of greatest reckning gifts and iudgement , haue returned from you unto the Church of England ; as Harrison , Smith , Crud , Slad , and sundry other mi●●sters and men of learning and account , who also liued holily , and died most comfortably in the Lord notwithstanding . Answer . IT is a wonder , if you be a teacher in your church that your salt is so vasauory . Shal mens persons now be brought against the case of Christ haue you no better learned him ? Mought not a Can●anite or Philistian have reasoned thus against Israel ? The wares against us and you did arise at first from persons in whome God testified against your present cause . Some were * brunt with fire , som ‡ sunk into the earth aliue , some were destroyed by ” serpents . some by † pestilence , some by the * enimies sword . some by the sword of ‡ their own brethren . euen Moses and A●ron your ●rincipall pillers of greatest reckning , dyed in the desert ” for their sinne , and of † six hundred thousand men that came out of Aegipt to fight against vs onely * two men are left aliue : and ( note ) these things have come vpon you b● the hand of your God , whom you say , that he hath sent you to warr agaynst vs Thus might a Pagā haue pleaded against Gods church then ; with as much truth and more colour then you that are called a Christian , can do against vs. But let us see your particulars . 1. M● , Bolton ( yo● say ) h●nged himselfe . And so did Iudas , one of the ●irst and principall publisher● of Christs Gospell . Will you therefore call Christ●a●ity into question for it ? Besides this Bolton . ( one of the Elders of that separated Church whereof Mr. Fits. was Pastour in the beginning of Q. Eliz. reigne , ) first revolted at Pauls Crosse , was reproued and excom●unicate for this by the church : and aft●r not hauing grace to returne or ●epent , hanged himselfe . This is testified to me by one yet liuing among vs , who tho● was member of that church & well acquainted with the affairs th●reof : and with this matter , and saw the man dead . Which being so Boltons Martyrdom is little for the credit of your cause and church where of he died a member 2 Mr. Brown reuolted &c. And to did ‡ Demas , and divers others in al ages , who loued this present world , more then God. But consider you here the Apostles words : what though some haue been vnfaithful , shal their vnfaithfulnes make the faith of God without effect ? Farr be it . Rom. 3.3 4. besides , how wel Mr. Brown approueth of your church , though he liue in it ; if you ask him I suppose , will tel yov . 3. Mr. Penry Barrow , and Greenwood were hanged . And so was Christ himselfe ; and ( note ) not by heathen tyranns , ( for Pilate ” washed his hands of his blood ; ) but by Priests , Scribes , and Pharisees , professing and mainteyning the religion of God , as your church now dooth . And you that allege the hanging of these men to reproach our faith : it is probable that if you had then liued , you would haue reproached Christ him selfe ; in the fellowship of whose afflictions and reproaches , we now rejoyce and are not ashamed . But fulfill you the measure of your forefathers . 4. Mr. Iohnsens and the rest 〈◊〉 . And so was * I●hn , the ‡ sonn of● thunder ; and many other of Gods people many t●mes You and your church shall haue small cause to boast of your persecuting Christs witnesses , when the day of your 〈◊〉 shall come . Your captions note that these ●unishments are ne●ly heathen tyran●● but by profes●ed Christians ▪ is indeed worthy to be noted and lamented : yet is it of no note or force , to disproue the truth of our cause . For who ●ersecuted Chr●st and his Apostles more then the Israelites Gods peculiar and profes●ed people ? who m●re then the ” builders , refused him the chief corner-stone ? whe●e were the Prophets killed , but † in Ierusalem ? Yea not onely false Chr●st●ans and hypocrites , but Gods elect-seruants may so be ouertaken , as to persecute and kill the Lords people . Did not the * Patriarche● sel Ioseph into Aegipt , when some of them would haue k●lled him ? was not Sol●m●n a good King ? Yet sought he ‡ to kill Ierob●am without cause ; whom God had appoynted to be King after him . Was not Aja ” a godly King , and good reformer of the church ( yet was he wroth with Hanani the Seer , and † put him into prison , onely for speaking vnto him the word of the Lord. What weight is there then in thi● your cavil , that our affliction are by Christian magistrates , therefore out cause is evill ? Good princes may be ouer caried eyther by their own affections ; or by the suggestions and prouocations of other men . And if you will not yet see your folly , mind this for your selues ; that you which 〈◊〉 called Puritans , are molested , imprisoned , persecuted : and ( note ) not by hethen and Antichristian tyranns ; but by your own Christian magistrates and Bishops , professing and maynteyning the gospel of Christ. Ergo , eyther your cause or your argument is naught . Your last poynt is partly false , and partly friuolous : for Mr. Harrison ▪ returned not vnto your church of England ; but died at Middleburgh in this faith that we professe . Mr. Smith , Crud , and some others , ( which never were officers . much lesse pillars , in our Church , ) did indeed forsake their first faith , and died soone after ; with what comfort , themselues now know . But what if many more had forsaken vs , yet the truth of the gospell which we professe , shall stand . Christian religion was at a low ebb , when so many went back , that Iesus sayd to the twelue * will you also gee away ? Yet Christianitie still flourisheth , and shall , so long as the moone endureth . And we with comfort doe behold ; that though many bad ones haue gone away ▪ yet God bringeth better in their place dayly . The 3. Consideration 3. NOte your dissentions between 1 Brown and Harrison , 2 Brown 〈◊〉 Barron , 3 Barro● and Francis Iohnson ; 4 Francis and George Iohnson ; 5 ●r . Iohnson and Mr. Slade ( that great scholler ) 6 Chaph●n and others a●out Anahaptisme , nay none of your great Rab●ines but haue grosly disagr●●d disagreed among themselues . It pi●ieth vs to see your poor congregation , how lamentably it hath been rent with mutuall dissentions bitings , and deuouring of ech●ethers ▪ wh●ch doubtlesse is no 〈◊〉 ●f the spirit of God. These are not lies but matters known ; and they are matters horrible and strange . Answer . IF you were an Atheist or Pagan ▪ as you professe to be a Christian : you mought in this ma●●r repr●ch the church of God ●uer since the world began ; saying . Note the dissentions , ●etween (a) Kain and Abel ; b Cham and Noah ; c Esaw and Iaacob , d Ioseph and the Patriarches , e Moses and the Isralites ; f Moses and the Leuites , g Moses and his ●wn sister and brother , h Gedeen and the men of Ephraim , of Succ●th . and of Pennel , i Ab●melech and his brethren k I●phteh and his brethren , l Beniamin and the other tri●es of Israel , m Saul and Dauid , n Dauid and Absalom , o the ten tribes and the two , from Ieroboams times and after , p the Pharisees & Sadducees in the Iewish Church , q the Apostles of Christ , the diss●ntions r in Corenth and the other Apostolike Chur●hes : These are not lies , but matters knowne , and r●corded in the scriptures : and they are matters horrible and s●rangem . So then , if your proposed C●nsideration be of weight to turne vs from our present faith , because of the dissentions that haue been among vs : the like consideration ●nought turne vs also ( which God forbid ) from all faith and religion , & make vs as very Athe●sts , as a many of your church already are . And indeed wher unto leadeth this manner reasoning which you vse , b●t vnto Atheism● ? For if an Infidel ●hould mind religion , mought he not be kept back , by consid●r●ng the dissentions , in fa●th , between Painims , Iewes , Mahometists , and Chr●stians , and a Iew or Turke be kept from Christianitie , because of the dis●entions between Protestants , Papists , Arians , Anabaptists and other sects many ? Yea are not the Papists at this day hindred from true religeon , by s noting ( as you doe ) the dissentions between Luther , Zwinglius , Calv●n & c ? But it seemeth all these were farr from your cons●deration , or if you minded them yet were they but motes in your ey : they be our dissentions , ours onely that trouble you It pittieth you to see our poor congregation . how lamentably it hath been rent &c. but you are hard-harted , and take no pity belike on your own Church . which you so highly commend vnto us , though dissentions for discipline , ( that I speake not of other matters ) haue been so great , that you ha●e not onelie preached & printed on against an other now many a year and that in verie bitter and hostile manner , but also , persecu●ede imprisoned & fought the blood on of an other . Wel , howsoeuer we haue indeed just cause to lament , that by our dissentions , you and others haue taken occasion to blaspheme the truth of God : yet herin haue we comfort that such things must be amongst us ( as the Holy Ghost saith , ) t that they which are approuued may be known . And you , if by no meanes you will learne the estate of a Church here on earth , where it is in continuall warr with the Serpent and his seed ; but stil you think these things horrible and strange : take heed you stumble not at the stone Christ to your distruction & haue your abiding in that house , which the strongman armed keepeth and the things that he possesseth are in peace . Luk 11.21 . The 4. Consideration . 4. YOur chiefest teachers cannot as yet determine , what the discipline i● that they would haue as what the difference is between a Pastor & a Doctour , whether Apostates ought to be admitted to office in the church &c. Answer . 1 , THere is no such dissention among vs touching these matters as you would here insinuate : though if there wer , yet our imperfection and difference in iudgment sheweth that we are weak men ; but no whit pre●ud●ceth the truth we professe . 2 , The heathen Philosophers , in the Ni●oean Synod . obiected the like against Christians , that they agreed not in opinion among themselus S●zomen . lib. 1 , cap. 18. 3. Your selfe heathen-like , may obiect against Paul and Barnaba● ( twoo of the chiefest teachers of Christian religion , ) one of the two things wherewith you here doe reproach vs ; because they not onely could not determine whether Iohn Mark , ( who had before departed frō them ) should accompanie them in the work of the Gospel ; but were so stirred , that they departed asunder one from the other , Act. 15.37.38.39.40 . 4. You might much better blame your owne Church and chiefest teachers , that cannot as yet determine what the discipline is that they would haue ; witnesse your long continued controuersies in print ; wherein what adoe you make about discipline , all the world knoweth . If your selues would walke better , in the truth , peace and concord of the gospel , you might wi●h more equitie find fault with us : pul therefore the beam first out of your own eye . The 5 Consideration . 5 THE Lord hath also testified against you , by giuing over very many people , 1 to Atheisme . 2 carnall life , 3 Papisme , 4 Anabaptisme , 5 Ari●nijme , 6 Familisme , which are not slanders but matters known to all that are acquainted with the course and state of your Church . Answer . ALl this being true , it sheweth the badnes of some men , not any badnes in the faith we professe . An infidel might haue obiected vnto Israel . as you doe here : The Lord hath testified against you , by giuing ouer ouer very many of your people , to Carnall life , Sed●mitrie . Peorisme , Bautisme , & many other idolatries with strange Gods. The Papists may and doe obiect the like things to your selues at this day . much more iustly then you do to vs. For when any such haue appeared among vs , we presently cast them out if they repented not : whereas with you , such are stil reteyned in the bosome of your Church ; yea such hereticks and vicious persons , as we haue excommunicate ; you doe entertayn , as is knowen to all that ar acquainted with your estate . Wherefore the Lord hath testified for vs , not against vs , whiles by the light of his word , such hypocrites haue been discouered and avoyded : but you are condemned by your own doctrine , whiles such miscreants , and flagitioius persons are kept in your communion . The 6. Consideration 6. THE churches and godly learned persons that euer heard of your separation , did not approue of it , which was the quarrel that Fr Iohnson had with Mr Iunius , and he sharply replyeth on him . Nay Mr Barrow plainely rayseth at Caluin and the Geneua church , and euen at al churches in Christendom . in his Discouerie : and counsels not with other reformed churches about their separation . but Answers ( as Mr Iohnson doth ) the word is neer vs , we need not go ouer the seas to seek it as if the Spirit of the Prophets were not subiect to the Prophets , and himselfe ( as the Pope ) had infallible rule of in●erpretation of the scriptures in his brest . Answer , THE strength of this reason , is quelled before , in the answer to the third of your first Considerations : thither I refer the reader . Further I answer , here that you teach such doctrine , as standeth not with Christian freedom or truth , whiles you would forbid vs the profession and practise of the Gospel , til we haue consulted with , and be approued of other persons and Churches . For though I grant ther is a good use of aduising with other Churches , ( if conueniently we can , ) eyther when cases are difficult . or when in any respect it doe concerne them : yet that in all matters of religiō Christiās should be boūd thus to walke when the finne to them is euident , which to other Churches ( not wel acquainted with their estate , ) is not so perspicuous ; this were to abridge Christian liberty , and to bring our consciences in bondage vnto men ; that though God forbid vs * al communion with idolatrie , yet we may not separate vnlesse they approue it . It is contrary to the word of God , which teacheth vs that Gods commandement is ‡ not hid from his people neyther is far off , not alost in heauen , nor beyond the sea , but in our mouthes & ●●rts to doe it . But you to deceiue your reader , allege this , as if it were Mr. B●rrows or Mr Iohnsons reason , and not the doctrine of Moses and of the Apostl● . The col●●r that you bring for your selfe , is that saying of the Apostle the spirites of the proph●ts are s●biect to the proph●ts 1 Cor. 14.32 which scripture considered by the words and circumstances of it , will in no we●se proue your purpose . F●r . first it may be q●estioned . whether the meanin● be , that the spirits of the prophets are subiect to other prophets or to th●mselves . For the Prophets among the gentiles , ( such as the Corinthians naturally a were , ( were s●bject unto , & caried and ruled by their spirits , and not their spirits subject to them : so that they could not choose but s●e●ke , ( as b S●bylla w●tne●seth of her selfe . ) neither could they lin or cease speaking , when they would themselues yea and in holy scripture we see how c Balaam prophesied good to Israel , and ble●sed , when he would haue cursed th●m ▪ Saul also and his messengers , † prophesied ( as it were ) by constreynt , being ouermastered by the spirit , soo as he could not co●teyn himselfe , bu● stripping off his clothes , prophe●●e● all that day and all that night , when he had no pur●ose thus to doe . Now therfor , where as the Apostle here had ordeyned , that if any thing were e re●eled to another that fare by the first prophet should hold his peace , because f almight prophesie one by one : if any should allege , that they could not hould their peace , but must speak , so long as their spirit moued thē he telleth them , that g the spirits of th● prophets are su●i●ct to the prophets ; so intimating that they may , if they will giue others le●ue to speak shewing also a reason hereof because h God is not ( the author ) q of confusion but of peace . And if thus wee understand the Apostle , his words make nothing for that you say . Vnto this also may be added , that he speaketh this affirmat●uely , they are subject , and not by way of ordinance , let them be subject , as i els where he vseth : and as other things in this place are spoken ; as k Let the prophets speak ; l Let the first hold his peace ; Let women be silent . But be it granted ( which I will not deny ) that he meaneth their spirits wer subject to other Prophets ; because when they had spoken m others were to iudge : yet those o●her , were the Prophets of ●he same church and there present not in other churches . For Paul meant not , that the spirits of the Prophets in Corinth , were subiect to the prophets in Rome or Iudoea and so must send to them for approbation ; but appoynteth like order in this , as was in n all ( other ) the Churches of the Saincts . And if they were bound ( as you would haue us ) to send and submit to other churches , and others likeweise to them ; then no Church hath no power in i● selfe , to apr●●e of her prophets , or Ministers or of their doctrine , without the good lik●ng of others , . Which how farr it is from the Apostles mind I leaue it for the d●screet reader to judge : neither thinke I but your owne brethren will dista●t y●●r so collecting from this place Howsoe●er they doe , it is verie like if you had liued in Ahabs dayes and should haue heard 400 prophets at once prophesying good vnto the King , and Micaiah onely b prophesying evill : you would with c Zidkijah haue smittē him on the cheek , ( as now you do vs in reproch , ) & told him that his spirit must be subiect to the prophets , especially they being so many , and he but alone . But if it were further granted vnto you , that we must be subiect to the prophets of other churches : yet I suppose you wil not deny but al prophets and churches must trie and iudge euery thing by the d word of God according to which if any man speak not , his iudgment is not to be regarded . And we , haue offred and doe still offer our doctrine and practise to the triall of al men by that word : if men eyther will not trie nor giue sentence at all , or doe judge amisse ; we are not bound to wayt vpon them ; but must liue by e our own faith . The reformed churches haue been wr●●ten to by vs ; ( for we know and acknowledge them to be true churche● and our brethren in the Lord : ) they giue vs no Answer . Shall wee cōtinew still ●n bōdage to Antichr●st , til they bid vs com out ? What scripture teacheth vs so ? If they or any , convince vs of error or evill , and we yeeld not ; le● vs be esteemed accordingly : otherwise if we walke in the truth , and they will not approue it , be it vpon them , as they shal answer bef●re the Lord. Mr. Iunius , whom you mention to reply so sharply , neyther approueth your Church , nor condemneth our practice . no not though he were instantly vrged : the writings between him and us are extant to the world , let the reader judge what both sides haue sayd . Your censure of Mr , Barrow , ( or scoffing rather at him , ) neyther hurteth him or vs , nor helpeth you . His playn dealing in reprouing the corruptions of these times . you call rayling ; it is marvel you say not also the prophets f rayled on the people of Israel , when they vsed sharp rebukes ; for I suppose you can hardly shew any hard speech that Mr. Barrow ther writeth ; which the Prophets and Apostles haue not vsed before . But if he were overcaried with some seuere speeches in a good cause‘ neyther we not himselfe euer iustified that infirmitie , we know that we are frayl men let the sharpnesse therefore be his but the trueth ( which he sharply teacheth ) Gods : And why carp you at the manner of his writing . and meddle not with the matter ? That book with others haue discouered the idolatries of your church ; which neyther by you nor any , haue euer yet been answered & refuted by the scriptures . For your self , let the reader iudge what you ●aue sayd . The 7 Consideration . 7. THe great and grosse disorder and partiallity in administring of your disciplin● , which George Iohnson sheweth cheerly ; besides the wants of sunctimony and common duties of godlynes , which ( he sayth ) are to be found in farr greater measure in the c●mm●n profess●rs of the church of England : and saith further , that the Dutch churches take you for a most vnquiet , con●entious , and disorderly people . Answer . THis article you obiect vnto vs , vpon one mans report that was for lying , and slandering , false accusation , and contention . himselfe cast out of our Church . By what rule or word of God , can you admit of the testimony of an excommunicate against a whole congregation ? Reason also might teach you , that no man standing against a church to excommunication , will ever speake wel of that church , in the cause wherein he standeth . But grant that this all were true which he reporteth what would you vrge vpon it ? that therefore Christianitie which we professe , is evill ? so perhaps a Turk or Iew would doe with as much reason as you can conclude , that our separation from you is euill ▪ Was there ever any truth , ( think you , ) that men did walke in it as they ought ? or any Church in the world , wherein the discipline ( as you call it ) was administred as it should Iulian the Apostata , ( that wrote so much against Christ , ) reading the testimonies of Moses , the Prophets and Apostles , Deut. 9.7.22.24 , Isa. 59 3 , 4 , 5 , &c. Mic. 3.9.11 . 1. Cor. 5.1.2 , & . 11.21.22 , &c. 3 Iohn . 9.10 . had as good ground to blame the Israelites and Christians for their manners & discipline , and consequently to disswade them from their faith as you do vs : yea he might allege faithfull and vndeniable witnesses : whereas you rely vpon a slanderer . Finally , what ayme you at , in all this , but to draw vs back vnto your church ; and there it is like . we shall find discipline without disorder or partiallity to weet , in your Bishops courts , for there the discipline of your church is to be seen . Of which , we need say nothing ; the voyce almost of al the land crieth out of their abominations . Onely we obserue how pregnant your perswasions are , to make vs beleeu , that because there ar sinns in Sion , there be none in Babylon . The 8 Consideration 8. GOD neuer witnessed for you , nor gaue testimony of his approuing your separation whether we consider your ministerie or people . For hardly can you shew any one person conuerted by your ministery from papistry or atheisme , or other open wickednes ; as by Gods blessing multitudes haue been by ours : but onely haue you seduced and wrought vpon the tender consciences of such as by our ministery were first begotten vnto Christ , But ( which is specially to be obserued ) from your distracted and devided congregations , multitudes haue fallen away , to euery kind of impiety & herisie reigning in the world . Answer . IF God approue our seperation and our ministerie by his word , ( as we are sur● he dooth ) it is yeno●gh , though our ministery haue not conuerted any . Your reason is as if a C●inite should ha●e sayd vnto N●ah God neuer witne●sed for thee nor gaue testimony of his approuing thy building of the Ark : for hardly canst thou shew any one person converted by thy precahing or Ark building , these 120. yeares . Our ministery belongeth to our church ; the assemblies whereof Papists , Ath●ists & such like wicked ones vse not to frequent : and how is it po●sible ●ur ministery should conuert such as come not to heare it . If we w●●ld obiect vnto you , that few Turks and Saracens haue been converred by y●ur m●●isterie : what would you answer ? Yet where you say ●e can har●ly sh●w my &c. we can ( if need wer ) shew you many that wer sometime prof●in & irreligious whiles they were of your church but cōm●ng and he●r●ng by Gods providence the doctrine of our church , haue been recl●ymed from their lewd life & doe walk holily in the faith with vs. It is true in ●eed that our cause hath wrought most vpō such as being somtimes vn●er yo●r ministery , had tender consciences & pliable to the truth others , of more corrupt consciences haue set against & blasphemed it ▪ T●e ●●●●ideratio● of this in any wise mans iudgment wil rather lead vnto , ●hen ●rom our cause ; when the better sort ( by your own confession ) do come vnto vs ; the worser and refuse remayn stil with you . Your last poynt which you would haue specially to be obserued that multitudes ha●e fallen from vs , to every kind of heresie and impietie , is indeed worthy to be obserued . For first the scripture is fulfilled , which sayth , m●ny sh●ll ●leaue vnto them faynedly , Dan. 11.34 , Secondly being fallen if they had com to a more holy faith & better walking whē they were gone out from vs , it might haue importe● ours to be evil : but now that they haue fallen to grosse heresie & impietie ; it argueth Gods hand so be heavy vp on them because they continued not in the truth with vs. And this the scripture confirmeth saying of such as † receiue not the loue of the truth , that they might be saued ; that therefore God wil send them strong delusion , that they shall belee● lies ; and of such as ‡ depart from the faith ; that they shall giue heed vnto spirits of errors and doctrines of Diuils . It is also to be obserued that al such impious & hereticall persons as haue departed from vs ; are interteyned with you in your communion , ( vnlesse themselues refuse to commun●cate with you ; ) your church is the receptacle of al s●ch Apostataes , & there they are suffred in herisie & impietie so as they w●l fr●q●ēt your assemblies . Better reasons therfore & more weithty c●nsid●rations ▪ ha●e you need to allege ; before you can perswade vs to retur●e vnto your church ; for these hitherto propounded & examined are found too too l●ght . But it may be , better follow . ARGVMENTS . That the best assemblies of the present church of ENGLAND , are true visible CHVRCHES . 1. IN what churches soeuer are found in publick practise , the things that essentially constitute a true visible church ; they are true visible churches of Christ. But in the best of our assemblies are found in publick practise the things that essentially constitute a true visible church : Therefore the best of our assemblies , are true visible Churches . Proof of the assumption A visible church is the house of God , 1 Tim. 3.15 . Now the meanes or things that constitute it , are 1 Foundation Iesus Christ to build vpon ; 1 Cor 3.11 Mat 16.18 . 2 Builders ; that is , such preaching ministers of the word , as doe build in godlynes , convert and confirme . 1 Cor 3 10. 3 Instrument of building the word of God. Eph. 2.20 . 4 Matter to be built ; people ioyned togither in the profesion of the Gospel . 1 Cor 3.9 Eph. 2 , 20. But all these are found in publick practise in the best of our assemblies . Therfore in the best of our assemblies , are found in publick practise , the things that constitute a true visible church . Answer . THE title of your arguments conteyneth 1 an error or absurditie ; 2 & argueth some check in your own consciences for defence of your Church . 1 The error is , that you divide the church of England into many Churches ; making the first ( as I conjecture ) a national Church ; the other , parishionall . This is an error , because it is an a humane inuention and differeth from the scripture , which sheweth many churches to be in a nation or country ; as in Iudea , Asia , Galatia &c , Gal , 1 , 2 , 21. Reu. 1.4 . but sheweth not any natiōal church . Now that yours is a national church not onely the name and title , but also the constitution sheweth ; for it hath a Pastor over it , the Archbishop of Canterbury Primate and Metropolitan , your most reverend father in God ; who maketh and consecrateth the Diocesan Bishops . ( wherevpon there are Diocesan churches or Sees ; ( and they agayn make the Parish Priests . To him and b to his successors , the inferior Bishops haue sworn ( so help them god through Iesus Christ. ) all due reverence and obedience . If the mould of this Church were not fetched from Rome ; shew where you learned it . 2. The check which the title argueth to be in your conscience , app●areth ap●eareth it that you plead but for the best assemblies of the present church of England ; for doe you not hereby intimate , that there is a worser sort which you will not plead for ? yet both b●st , and worst are all one body , one church and communion : If your Church of England be Christs why maynteyn you not the whole ? is not every ●art and parcell of Christs church to be defended ? Thinke you that the priests and people of Israell , would haue mainteyned the Most holy place of their Temple onely , & haue suffred the rest of the howse to be ruinate and troden vnder foot . or if they did thus , should they haue done well ? How persidiously then doe you deal with your church , ( if it be the true church of Christ , ) that you seek to vphold your Sanctum sanct●rum , your best assemblies ; and neglect the rest ▪ Or , if you would make one peece of your church Christ and another peece Antichrists , where both be in brotherhood and vnitie togither : it is as absurd as if you would make one part of your bodie humane , an other bestiall one peece Gods another Diuils . It is contrarie also to the playn scriptures which say ; a what communion hath light with darknese ●hat concerd hath Christ with belial meaning . none at all . Eyther therefore you must iustify your whol Church ; or you must with vs make a separation . How long will you halt between two opinions . To your Argument I answer ; the proofs of your assumption fayl you . A visible church ( you say ) is b the house of God. True ; but your Bethell , will be found Betha●en . the hou●e of Idolatrie . You make the things constituting your howse to be fowr 1 Foundation 2 Builders , 3 Instruments , 4 Matter , But the forme or fashion of the building , you leaue quite out : perhaps you saw that it would not endure the trial ▪ when it should be compared with the patterne that God shewed in the Mount. The Prophet Haggai c reproued the Iewes for that Gods house was not builded amōg them . If you had beē ther. you would have disproued the Prophet by this sophistrie . We haue the 1 Foundation laid . Hag. 2.9 , 2 Builders we haue many both priests and people 3 Instruments also for to hew and square the timber and stone as axes &c. 4 and matter wherewith to build , as wood from the mountain , and stone from the qarrie . Therefore ( though the stones be neither laid nor squared . nor the timber hewen , fitted or framed : because with vs are found the things that essentially constitute a visible house , ) we haue the true house of God , But if your own material houses were no otherwise builded , then your church is , by this your argument . you would haue but an vncouth dwelling . If you read Gen. 11. you shall find the towr of Babel , to be as wel builded as your church ; for there was the 1 Foundation laid ; 2 Builders many , 3 instruments also ; & 4 matter both brick and slime . Now let vs examine the things which you say you haue ; and doe bu● barelie say for you proue it not . 1. The Foundation is Iesus Christ to build vpon . 1 Cor. 3.11 Mat. 16.18 . But this Foundation is not yet rightlie laid in your assemblies you haue it onelie in name and shew : Christ is neer in your mouthes , but farr from your actions . If you had shewed by the scriptures how Christ is laid for the foundation of the church : it would soon haue bene seen that your house is set vpon the sands . For you haue not him for the mediator , prophet , priest , or king of your church , as it is now established . Many truthes I acknowledge are taught among you but many vntruthes are also mixed with them , and the power of godlines is denied ; for the truthes that are taught cannot be practised . Your church hath also other spirituall Lords and lawes then Christ and his testament ; as your Prelates , with their cannons , articles , and decrees imposed vpon you to be obserued on paine of excommunication and , further penalties So Christ alone , is not your foundation , but his seruants also a you ar to whom you obey . 2. Your builders are your preaching ministers , but I deny them to be Gods builders , let them shew when God designed them as he did b Bezaleel & Aholia'● , to make his sanctuary . let them shew by the word their office and calling as the Apostle Paul , of whome mention is made in the place you allege , 1 Cor 3 : 10. ) did ●n all his Epistles . Otherwise , not all that offer themselues to build may be admitted ; for you know how it is written ; It is not for you , and for vs , to build the howse vnto our God. Ezra . 4.3 . In most of your parish assemblies , you haue but one preaching minister ; and so but one builder , and he will be a good while in building the house ; and if he be taken away ( as many are ) then your church wanteth one of the 4 essent all things In many parishes there be vnpreaching ministers ; your church maketh them builders also , ( though you doe not , ) and vnto such if we were among you , should we be constreyned to submit our soules . The Bishops are master builders in all your churches , they command and control you their inferior Priests : if you build not by their line they throw down quicklie all your building , and thrust the builders out of dores . These are like the hornes that Zacharie saw c which scattered Iudah , so that a man darst not lift vp his head ; but your preaching ministers are not like the carpenters that came to fray them away . How great a jarr there is between your builders . we all doe know ; and long it wil be ere they agree togither to build Gods house ; or the work be finished for Christ to dwel in , when the master workmen work all awry and when ( as you d complained to the Parliament ) the walls of Sion , lie euen with the ground . 3. The instrument of building is the word of God. ( as you allege Eph. 2.20 . deliuered by the Prophets and Apostles and Christ himselfe . But your builders vse not this instrument aright , in doctrine or practise , they new not here with the rough stone , and knotty timber they reform not the profain & rebellious people , neither haue they power in their armes to cut off any one wicked man ; for the axe of excommunication is in the Bishops hand alone , and his commissaries ; he hath the keyes to open & shut the dores of your Church ; the parish priest hath perhaps a weeding hook , and may suspend from the sacrament a while , by vertue of his service-book : but the greatest wound that he can make herewith , the Bishop or his substitute will quickly heal . Again you haue besides the Bible , Apocripha bookes , commanded by law to be read in your church : also that other instrument called the seruice book : and with this tool your best min●sters build vp your church , and the reading hereof doth now much edifie , in al your parishes : though the dayes hauee been when you could say , that a in all the order of your seruice , there was no edification but confusion . And who put this instrument into your ministers hands ? Christ in his testament appoynted none such . Your church hath also Homily books to build withall , and many edifying canons and ceremonies , such tools the Prel●es haue allowed for your building . even the instruments of the foolish she●heard , Za. 11 , 15.16 . & if you will not beleeu me beleeu your selus which heretofore haue complayned and written thus , b No preacher may without great danger of the law vtter all the truth comprised in the book of God It is so circumscribed and wrapt within the compasse of such statutes , such penalties , such iniunctions , such advertisements , such articles , such canons , such sober caueats and such manifold pamphlets that in manner it doth but peep out from behind the skreen . The lawes of the land . the book of common prayer , the Queens iniunctions , the Commissioners aduertisements , the Bishops canons , Linwoods provincials , euery Bishops articles in his dioces , my Lord of Canterburies sober ●aueats , his licences to preachers , and his high court of prerogatiue or graue fatherly faculties . these to-gither or the worst of them , ( as some of them be too bad ) may not be broken or offended against , but with more danger then to offend against the bible . To the subscribing & subscribing agayn , & th● third subscribing are requ●red : for these preachers & others are indited ▪ are fined , ar prisoned , are excommunicated , are banished , and haue worse things threatned them . And the Bible that must haue no further scope , then by these it is assigned . Is this to professe Gods word Is this a reformation ? &c. Thus haue we your own confessiō what manner of instruments your church is builded with , and all men may , see , what small cause you haue to boast of the word of God , amongst you . The matter of the building , is people ioyned togither in the profession of the Gospell . And what manner of people are ioyned togither in your church ? are there not all sorts of profane , wicked and irreligious persons , as wel as religious and men of better life ? and where find you in the scriptures such matter for Gods howse ? The texts c by you alleged teach farr otherweise : for the Church of Corinth , were saincts by calling , even called of God unto the fellowship of his sonne Iesus Christ. 1 Cor 1 , 2 , 9 , and the Apostle neuer sayd to any profane or confused people ye are Gods husbandry . Gods building , So for the other text if you had minded eyther that which is before or after , it might haue stayed you from applying it to your church . For the Apostle writing to the a Saincts , ( not to the profane ) which were at Ephesus , sayth , Now y● are no more strangers and forreners . but citizens with the saincts and of the how should of God ; b and after , he sheweth how in Christ c all the bulding coupled togither , groweth vnto an holy temple in the Lord. But neyther are your people saints by calling . neyther can you say of your church of England , that all the bulding ( of all the parishes ) coupled togither , groweth to an holy Temple in the Lord ; for your self here defend not all , but the best on●ly . And we know well , that the m●ltitudes of profane wicked persons and miscreants , meer strangers and forreners , are of the matter of your church ; and are bu●lded in and with the same ( if the word and sacraments doe bu●ld among you ) even the vilest of the● when they goe to the gibbet , as pleasantly as d Agag did to his death Now mind with your sel●es , if God haue commanded to build his house with the fine Ceder and e Sittim trees : & you take the thornes and briars of the wildernes , or wild figtrees of the playn : whether Christ ( who f is faithfull to him that hath appoynted him , even as Moses was in all his house , ) when he shall take a view of all your work , will allow of your labours , and blesse you for them , as Moses blessed the builders of the tabernacle . Exod. 39.43 . Your first argument therefore is to weak to vphold your church or best assemblies , and the assumption of your profyllogisme is denyed . The 2 argument , 2. THose Churches whose true members are onely espowsed to Christ , a true visible Churches ; Ephe. 5.30.32 2. Cor. 11.2 . But the true members of our best assemblies . are espowsed onely to Christ. Therefore &c. Proof of the assumption , They are espowsed onely to Chrisi . which are indued with true sauing faith . Eph. 5 30.31.32 . with Iohn . 15.3 4.5.7 . & . 17 , 20.21 . But the true members of our best assemblies , are indued with a true sauing faith confessed by Mr. Iohnson in Iakob . pag. 7· Look also in the confirmation of the 5. argument folowing here . Therefore &c. Answer . HEre agayn you haue gott an other starting hole , whiles you plead but for the true members of your best assemblies ; yet neither tel you vs which are your best assemblies , nor who be the true members of them ; that how to follow or where to finde you we cannot tel . As is a the way of an eagle in the aire , such is the way of an adultrous woman , it is hid and cannot be known . But I will see if I can discouer your falsehood though I cannot find your footing . First I deny that the true members of your best assemblies are espowsed onely to Christ. for ( as the prophet sayd of Israel , ) b lift vp your eyes ūto the high placs & behold wher you haue not plaied the harlot . Now whils a church doth play the harlot , Christ willeth vs to plead with her , c that she is not his wife , ney●her is he her husband . Idolatrie is spirituall whordome , as the Prophets testifie , Psa. 106 39. Ier. 3.9 . Deut. 31.16 . but the true members of your best assemblies , commit idolatrie in their daylie worship according to their Romish leiturgy or book of commō prayer , an idol of your own inuentiō . How are they thē espowsed to Christ alone ? Yes they are ( say you , ) because they ar indued with true sauing faith I answer ; Faith is in the hart , as it is writen , with the hart man beleeueth , Rom. 10.10 . The hart no man knoweth but God alone ; as agayn it is written , thou ( Lord ) onely knowest the harts of all the children of men 1 King , 8 , 39 , So then I ask you how you know that your members haue true faith ; your answer must needs be , ( vnlesse you w●ll make your selfe a God , ) you know it not but by their words and works . Wel thē let vs bring these to th' trial ; their confession and the●r practise ; leauing their faith to God that knowes it The conf●ssion of the●r faith is set downe in their service book , the 12. articles of the Creed . But this Creed the Papists also confesse and read in their church ; and if it will proue your people to haue true faith it will proue theirs to haue likewise ; & you say no more for England , then for Rome . Agayn the Apostle sayth , there are some which d professe that they know God but in works doe deny him , and are abominable and disobedient and to euery good work reprobate . So then words are not yenough , to proue true faith But we must come to the Apostle Iames his triall , shew me thy fayth out of thy works ; for faith without works is dead . Now the works of your people are apparant to be evil ; they standing in communion or confusion rather with the vnclean , profane and , wicked whereby al Gods holy things are defiled ; as it is written , Num. 19.22 . Hag. 2.14 . submitting their soules to Antichristian prelates and priests , and hearing their voyce , contrari● to Iohn , ) 10 , 5. worshiping God in vayn , after their own invented seruice book , which is a high transgression of the second commandement ; Exo 20 And these things are general and publick ; the particular and more priuate in●q●ities , will not easily be numbred . Whereas therefore you would perswade vs your church is espowsed onely to Christ , ( although her fornicat●ons are so manifest between her brests , because she sayth . she beleeveth only in Christ ; it is with no more colour , then as if e Bilhah ( whē she was known to lie with Reuben , ) should haue pleaded ; yet am I an honest woman , and espowsed to Iaacob onely , for my loue and harty affection is towards him alone . But the wise man teacheth vs , these be but the tricks of an adultrous woman , she eateth and wipeth her mouth & sayth I haue done no iniquity . Pro , 30 , 20. The scriptures which your selfe allege ; doe also make against your chvrch . Eph 5 30. We are members of ( Christs ) body . of his flesh and of his bones . F●rst your church can shew no covenant that was made between Christ and her , at any time : the gathering and planting of your church having been by the Magistrates authority : not by the word of Christ , winning mens soules unto his faith , separating them from the vnbeleevers , and taking them to communion with himselfe . Secondly , in saying his body , the Apostle excludeth al other bodies ; as more plainlie appeareth in the other scripture , 2 Cor. 11.2 . where he prepared the church as a pure virgin for Christ , which cannot be whiles she defileth her self with others ; as doth your church with the abominations of the Papists ; compāying also in the bed of loue , with the Prelates , ( whom the better son of you haue confessed to be Antichristian ) and their infer●our priests , who work vpon mens consciences by their jurisdiction , ministery , doctrines , canons &c. being as the bridegrooms of your church , not a the friends of the bridegroom which stand and heare and reioyce for the bridegrooms voyce ; for , that Christ should speak and rule , vnlesse it be according to their own canons ; they cannot endure . The other places in Iohn . 15. & 17. will confirme also that the true members of your best assemblies are not espowsed onely to Christ For Christ sheweth , b that his Father is the husbandman , who caleth and bringeth vnto and planteth in him the true vine ; all the branches , that is the particular persons of the Church . But the true members of your best assemblies : are as yet the branches of that false Antichristian vine . your confused church of England : not separated from , but liuing and growing in one stock , body and communion with the idolatrous and profain . So that you cannot say , as did the Israel of God. c Thou hast brought a vine out of Aegypt , thou hast cast out the heathens & plāted it . Christ sheweth that his branches were d purged of the Father , by the word spoken vnto thē ; your members ar not yet purged or clensed by the word of Christ , from their idolatries , and profane communion with the ympes of Satan , . The word of life the word of separatiō from the serpēt & his seed ; hath not yet sounded in the eares , or at least , not sunk into the harts of your people . Christ branches e bring forth much fruit , through their abiding in him , being able without him to doe nothing : your branches bear little fruit but vnto themselues ; and ( as Moses foretold ) f their grapes are grapes of gal their clusters bitter , for the publick idolatries vsed in your assemblies , after the maner of the mother of Rome . shew that your vine is of the vine of g Sodom . Christ prayed onely h for them that should beleeu in him through the word , that they all might be one in the Father and the Son , as the Father in him , and he in the Father ; but the true members of your best assemblies , are one with the world , for whome Christ would i not pray ; being on spiritual body , & ioyned in communiō with the whol multitude of profane and wicked of the land ; That strange it is you should read the scriptures and not discerne , how farr you are from being vnited with Christ , who as himselfe was not of the world , a so neyther are his people , but chosen and separated out of the same . Whereas you bring no proof that your people haue true faith , but by Mr , Iohnsons confession ; it sheweth how distressed and helplesse your estate is . Yet doe you great wrong to Mr. Io , ( as the reader may see in the place that you cite ; ) For although considering them apart from the constitution of your Church he thinketh by the appearance of the knowledge faith and fruits of diuers . that they may well be thought in regard of Gods election in Christ , to be heirs of saluation , and in that respect true Christians : yet in respect of the constitution of your Church , he sayth , they can not be iudged true Christian. Now we deal against your church in regard of the constitution thereof ; not doubting but God hath many elect heyres of sal●ation among you , which we leaue vnto him that knowes them . Your argument then from Mr Iohnsons confession , is faultie , and agreeth not with the rules of right reasoning ; for whereas he limiteth his iudgment of them , shewing in what respect it is & plainelie excepteth their church-constitution : you bear your reader in hand as if he granted it without l●mitation ? and that too , according to the Scriptures in your first proposition , which evidently do concern the churches constitution . You may much abuse any mans words , if what he speaketh respectively you will take and allege as spoken absol●telie . So your proofe fayleth you . In the end you referr vs , to the confirmation of your 5 , Argument following to the Answer wh●reof I also refer the reader Now though I haue answered first to the assumption or second part of your argument on proof whereof you doe insist : yet the first part also shal be better examined , ere I let it passe : Those churches ( you say ) whose true members are onely espowsed to Christ. are true visible churches . By true members I conceiue you doe meane . ( not as the truth is , all baptised and so reteyned in your church , but ) some few choise persons , or forward professors , among whom there is an imaginary brotherhood , and separation from the other profane in your parishes ; though invery deed they stand all one bodie . If thus you intend ( as the proof of your assumption plainelie intimateth you do , ) then offer you violence to the similitud of mariage or espowsall which al mē know is not with some few members of a womans body , as her fingers , or hands &c , but with the whole woman , who giueth her selfe by covenant vnto her spowse or husband . And as in civill mariage so it is in spirituall ; for Israel of old . when the Lord became a b husband vnto them , did not some of them , but c all the multitude generally make covenant with their God : the scriptures also which you alleg , Eph , 5.2 Cor 11 speak of the whole body of the church , not of a few select members of the same . For though it be true of every visible church , that some onely are elect howsoeuer all be called ; yet the discerning of this belongeth to God alone , and not to vs ; who esteem of persons according to their outward covenant profession , and walking . Your reason then seemes to be like this ; That womans ●hose true members , ) as namely . her eye , and eare . and some of her fingers ) are espowsed on●ly to such a man. She is his true and lawfull wife . But the true members of N , ( howsoeuer her whole bodie in generall is coupled with an adulterer ; and the most of her members ar affected and wholly giuen ouer to that adulterer , and her pretended husband they hate , & never made couenāt with , ) ar espowsed only to such a man Threfore . &c. If this reason be not absurd . let him that readeth iudge ; and if such absurdity be not implyed in your argument , shew if you can in your next writing ; for if you striue to avoyd this , you will fall into another evill as shall then be manifested . The 3. argument IN what churches soever , is such an ordinance of God in publick vse and for● by which there is ordinarily made an vndoubted resurrection or quickning frō the death of sinne vnto the life of grace , and a new birth : they are true visible churches of Christ. Iam , 1 , 18 , 1 Pet , 1 23. But in the best of our assemblies is such an ordinance of God &c. Theref●●e &c. The assumption is manifest . because by that ordinance of preaching which is in publick vse and force . there is ordinarily made an vndoubted new birth ; seing there doe ordinarily appear in many . the vndoubted fruites and testimonies of Gods spirit , after the publick and ordinary preaching of the word . in our best assemblies . Answer . THE first part of this your argument seemeth to imply an error ; as that a church is first gathered & constituted of an vnregenerate profane and worldly people ; over which are set Pastors and Teachers , who by preaching the Gospel doe beget them or some of them vnto th● faith and quicken them from the death of sinn &c which quickning or new birth , is a proof that they are a true visible church . This course I finde to be contrary vnto the scriptures ; which I would thus manifest . When the Lord Iesus would shew mercy to the world , and call his elect out of the same , he sent a Apostles Prophets and Evangelists to preach his saluation to all peoples . The people to whom they preached , wer● not ( for the most part ) churches of God. but assemblies of heathens and idolaters ; as for example , the men b of Lystra of c Corinth ; of Athens where Paul preached d in Mars street ; and other like places . By meane● of this manner preaching many ●eople were regenerate or be●ne a new quickned from the death of s●●●e . a●d tu●●ed from idols to the liuing God. And being thus begotten vnto God , they were a separated from others that bel●eued not . and ioyned togither into a holy com●union , not hauing other officers over them for a while till men were fitted for such a worke . Therefore oft times the Apostles departed to other places and left the Evangel●sts to b redresse things that remayned , and to ordein them Elders in every citie , as the Apostles appoynted them These Elders , called generally c Bishops or Ouerseers , had charge d of their particular flocks , and might not goe from them as did the Apostles . but attend and feed them : These now could not properly be sayd to beget their peo●le to the faith , ( as the Apostle noteth e to the Corinthians ) but to feed and instruct them ; and therefore are not called Fathers , but f Feeders , or Pasters . and Pedagogues . Child-leaders or Instructeurs . From which I gather , that people must regenerate and borne again , before they may be admitted into any particular church , or haue officers ouer them ; and that ordinary ministers , which feed their flocks , cannot be sayd to beget them , as is the common vawnt of you Ministers in England . which me thinks even reason it selfe might shew you : For you that are now over your parishes , how found you your people at first , a church or no church ? If you say a church then you begat them not , but entred vpon other mens labours that were before you if you say they were not a church , then you condemn the state of your parishes as they were planted , before you were their Ministers . Now then to come to your ●roposition ; In whats●ever churches ( that is assemblies . for so I vnderstand you to vse the werd generallie , h as the g Scripture sometime vseth Ecclesia , ( is such an ordinance of God in publick vse and force , by which there is ordinarily made an vndoubted new birth &c. they are true visible churches of Christ : This I denie ; for in the assemblies of the heathens in the Apostles daies ( as before is proued ) there was such an ordinance of God sometimes in publick vse and force , as by it ordinarilie there was made an vndoubted new birth ; as th' fruit of th' Apostles preaching sheweth· yet were not those assemblies of heathens , true visible churches of Christ. but such onelie as were converted to God and separated from the rest that beleeved not ; and joyned in a holy communion togither were true visible churches . Whereas you assume , that in the best of your assemblies is such an ordinanc● of God &c this also I denie for your ministers are not Gods ordinance , he hath not called or sent them , they execute no lawfull office in your assemblies . But your assumption ( you say ) is manifest , because by that ordinance ●f preaching which is in publick vse and force . there is ordinarily made an vndoubted new birth . I answer , first in verie many of your assemblies there is no such ordinance of preaching in publick use , as you here b●ast of ; but bare reading onely : yet those assemblies are by the Constitutions of your church , to be reputed as true visible churches as the other . Secōdly in those other other where preaching is , I deny that there is ordinarily mad● an vndoubed new birth ; Your proof is , because th●re do ordinarily appear in many , the undoubted fruites and testimonis of Gods spirit &c. I answer , first if this be so , yet what will these many , help the mo●t and greatest ●umber , in whom such fruits appear not ? When many of the hethens beleeued the Apostles word , did their beleef bring the other that beleeued not , into the church did not the Apostles separate the beleeuers from the rest . and a teach them to come from among them ? Yet you for the faith of some , will vnite all the assemblie vnto Christ and his church , contrary to the Apostles practise , and to all the scriptures . Secondly , I deny that there doth ordinarily appear in many such vndoubted fruits of Gods spirit after your ordinary preaching as for which we may esteem them true visible churches . Some fruites I kn●w there doe appear ; so doe there among the Papists : yea they take occasion for such things to b reproch you . that there follow not so many good works after your preaching as after their doctrine ; but among neyther of you : are those fruits seen , wh●ch by the testimonie of scriptures will proue you true visible churches . So we haue here but your bare affirmation to rest vpon : and though I might thus end with as bare a deniall : t●l you bring further proof , yet for to help the reader . I wil shew that ordinarily there appeareth not a new birth after your preaching . Because of your publick idolatrous estate , where●n you stand subiect to Antichristian Prelat●s and canons whiles you haue your publick worship after the Romish idolatrous manner , and are stil comming led in one bodie with the profane , and ser●ents seed , with many other evils among you : which plainly shew you want the new birth and are stil in your old mothers womb . This the scriptures which you allege in your proposition will confirme ; for the Apostles shew , Iam , 1 , 18 1 Pet 1 , 23. that Christs church is a people begotten of God with the word of truth ; that is the c Gospell : but your church was first begotten . gathered , constituted , ordered , and is still continued , by the Magistrates word and authority ; which if it did not inforce the people . the estate wherein you now stand , would soon be changed ; your church dissolved , and eyther be better or Worse . And where you learned so to inforce f●●th , and constrein men to be members of your church I can not tel ; vnlesse you follow Mahomets doctrine who d taught that men should be compelled to the faith , by warr and sword . Againe , the Apostle addeth this for a testimony and end of our new birth , that we should be as the first fruit● of Gods creatures This men are not , till they be as was Israel , hallowed to the Lord ; Ier , 2 , 3 , which was by separation from the world Levit , 20.26 , and a willing covenant with the Lord Exod. 19.5 , 6.8 ; D●ut , 26 , 17 , 18 , 19 , And that the like must be of vs Christians , an other scr●pture confirmeth , saying , e These are they w●i●h are not defil●d with women , for th●y are virgins ; ( this implyeth a se●ar●t●on from the world ; ●h●s● f●llow the Lamb whith●rsoeuer he goeth , ( this argueth a couenant and communion with Chri●t : and in the next words . both poynts are repeted . ) these are 1 bought from men . being the first fruits 2 ●nto G●d and to the Lamb : after this followeth the fruit , * and in their mouth 〈◊〉 found no guile , for they are without spot before the throne of God. Whereas therefore you haue stood so long against vs for separation and would mainteyn a meer confusion of all sorts of people in a C●●rch , vpon an imaginary separation made in the clowdes of your own fansies whiles outwardly and indeed , you are one body with the wicked : you are vndoubtedly ●ot yet borne a new ; your Church hath not strength to bring forth : your ministers are vnskilfull midwiues ; and the saying of the Prophet cōcerning the people of Ephraim , is verified also v●ō your people be is an vnwise son . els would be not stand still such a time . even in the breaking forth of the child●en . Hos 13 , 13. The 4. Argument . IN what churches soeuer all things needfull to saluation by publick authory●y and g●n●rall approbation , are ordinarily and publickly taught they are true visible Churches . But in the best of our assemblies are &c. Therefore true visible churches . Proof of the assumption , In what churches soeuer ar ordinarily and publickly taught . the doctrines wh●●by the people of God were conuerted and saued in the time of Christ and his Apostles . in those churches are all things needfull to saluation taught . But in th● b●st of our assemblies are &c , Ergo &c. Proof of this assumtion appeareth out of Luk. 1.77 , 78. with Mar. 1 , 4.15 . Luk. 24 , 47. Act. 2.37 , 38 , 41. Act , 11 , 17 18. Act 16.30.31 , and 20.21 . If it be o●i●cted that the poynts in question betwen vs. be needfull to saluation : it is thus disproued . Al things needfull to saluation are cleerly set downe in the scriptures to the vnderstanding of the spiritual 1 Cor 2.15 . Dan 12.10 . Pro. 8 9. ●nd the things that are not open to the spirituall , are not needfull to saluation . But the p●ynts in question between us , are not cleerly s●t down in scripture to the vnderstanding of the spirituall ; as appeareth both by thowsands of ●inist●rs and peo●le of the church of England and o●her forr●yn churches among ●h●me are the cheefest lights of this age as Caluin , Beza , Iunius , Fiscat●r . Gualter . Zanchius with others , which were vndoubtedly spirituall ; are of c●ntrary iudgement to the Separatists as also in that it is not agreed vp●n among themselues . what is the discipline and order required by the word in ●ue●y p●ynt , nor in ●any other poynts of difference among them . namely touching the diff●rences of the office of Doctor and Past●r &c. Answer . FIrst wishing the reader to remember what is answered to the fi●st part of your former Syllogisme ; I wil with out further re●etition , proceed p●oceed in answer of this ; where the gro●nd and proposition of your first argument is vnperfect , so that which you build thereon is vnsound . For whereas you speake of all things n●●●full to s●lauation &c. to be publickly taught : you should haue added also , are obser●ed or done ; according to Christs saying ye are my freinds if ye doe whatsoever I commaund you . If men hear truth taught and obey it not , it avayles them nothing Ther●fore as the Apostle saith , ‡ be ye doers of the word , and not hearers onely . d●ceiuing your selues . Your assumption also is denyed : for in your best assemblies all things needfull to saluation be not taught , much lesse done or practised . To giue an instance ; to be separated from the vnbeleevers , and to be ioyned togither vnto a holy com●union and church ; is needfull to sal●ation ; 2 Cor , 6 , 17.18 . Act , 1 47 , Isa 65.9 , Reu 21 , 24. This is neither taught not practised in your a●semblies but oppugned by all the cauils you can . Your proof of the a●s●m●tion is , a comp●rison of your church with those in Christs time and th' Apostles . I answer you agayne , your church is not like those in d●●trine or in practise of things needfull to saluation . Then you say , the proof of this assumption appeareth out of Luk. 1.77 . &c. This is a strange proof of your assumption , which is this , But in the best of our ass●mblies are taught &c. Doth Luk 1 , 77. shew what is taught in your a●semblies ? and why doth not Mat , 15 , 9. and 23 , 16 17 , &c. shew what is taught there also ? The places that you allege shew what doctrine was taught in the Iewish and Apostolick churche● ; not what is taught in yours . It must be therefore your own writings , sermons , doctrine , practise and estate . that must proue your a●sumption . But you will say ( perha●s ) your doctrines and practises . agree with those mentioned in these scriptures . That I deny ; and would therfore that you should haue made application of the particulars : Which because you haue not done , I will doe for you . You allege Luk , 1 , 77.78 . with Mar , 1.4.15 where knowledge of saluation is giu●n unto ( Gods ) people . by remission of their sinns , through the tender mercy of our God &c. & this was done , by preaching the baptisime of amendement of life , for r●mission of sinns . and beleef in the Gospel . So in Luk. 24 , 47 repentance and remission of sinns should be preached in Christs name among all nations . The same things are also taught in all the other places which you cite , as the reader may see in the texts . Now these things ( you will say ) are taught and obserued among you . I shew the contrary thus . First you giue knowledge of saluation , ( though faslly ) vnto other then to his , that is to Gods people ; in as much as you giue the sacraments , which are the seales of our saluation vnto the profane and wicked and their seed thus prostituting the most holy things . even Christ h●mselfe , vnto hat●rs a●d bl●sphemers of God , ( a● you cann ●r deny but a number of yo●r church are ) and such as make a mock of religion ; and herein you ar●u●ty of high sacrilege agai●st God. Secondly , the doctrine of repentance . is not truly taught nor obeyed in y●ur Ch●rch . For vnto true repentance is required , 1 a knowledge or notice giuen and taken of sinns ; Isa 58 , 1 , Lam , 2 , 14 & 3 39 , 40. 2 an acknowledgment or confession made of sinns , ( as a testimony of true sorrow of hart , ) with asking mercy Leu 4 , 13 , 14. &c , & 5 , 5.6 , Psal. 32 , 3 , 5 , 3 and a for●aking of sinns , or amendement of life . Prou. 28 , 13 , Psal , 28.21.2 Cor. 7 , 11. Eze. 18 , 21. N●w the sinns of your church haue not by your Ministers been signifie● to yo●r people ; as namely their confuse estate and commixture with the wicked ; though it be a sinne every where reproued in the scriptures . as before is shewed . The great transgressions which your people dayly commit in Gods publ●ck worship , whiles , you haue your own wilworship , and stinted prayers with●●t warrant from Chr●sts testament , read in place of Gods true spirituall service ; these are not preached against , reproued or cast out by your ministers doctrine ; but contrariwise , they haue by word & writing so●ght to m●inteyn the same . The seru●le subiection that both ministers and people , are in , vnder your Lords the Bishops and their courts ; is not disco●ere● by your min●sters to be a sinne and bondage which you must depart from , if you wil be subiect to that onely Lord & maister Chr●st though secretly they haue sought to vndermine that jurisdict●on of B●shops wh●ch how ca● they doe , if it be of Christ ; or how may a●y sta●d vnder it , if it be of Antichrist ? This being the sinfull state of your church , as we wel know . ( and you ar neuer able to iust●fy your selues ; ) your ministers not teaching repentāc for these things , nor being suffred by your Church to speak against them , teach not repentance truely . For , It is not yenough to cry out of Idolatry , or to preach repentance from sinns in generall ; for so they doe among the Papists , but the perticuler sinns of euery people and pers●n mu●t be reproued ; yea every sinne that is seen and discerned , or els your preachers doe not their dutie . Gods word teacheth u● t●at ●f a man walke in any one sinne though he doe not all he shal n●t liue . but die the de●th Ezek. 18 , 11 , 13. W●en Gibeah was giuen ove● * to the Sinne of Sodom , if the Priests and prophets should haue preached against idolatrie , swearing , breaking of the Sabbath , and such like evils . and not against that particular filthynes which the people followed should they haue preached repentance truly ? When Israel followed ‡ Iereboams calues at Dan and Bethel , if the ministers then had preached against Sodo●ie , whordome , drunkennes , and the like , and not cried out a●ainst that present idol worship , but pleaded rather for it : sh●uld they haue t●u●ht repenatnce truly ? Even thus it is with your best min●ster● , they will th●●de● out in their pulpits , against Popery , and idol●try in ●e●er●ll a●ainst theft , whordome , pr●de , coueteousnes , and m●●y o●her i●q●●●ie● , but the sinne which cleaueth so fast to the bones of ●o●r Church , t●e heynous enormities in Gods worship amongst you ▪ these they meddle not with , neither vpon payn of excommunicati●● draw the people to repentance for them ; as after I will further shew . Perhaps now and then they will glance at the Bps. or some other corruptions , but bring the people from vnder these iniquities , they doe not , nay they plead for them rather , and cry o●t vpon vs , which haue forsaken so grosse ab●minations . Now there being no notice giuen by the ministers , or taken by the people of the si●ns wherein they liue : the other two parts of true re●entance doe also fail among you : for farr you be from confessing your sins , which though you offer the sacrifice of fools , yet will you not know that you doe evill , and most farr from amending them , when with so high a hand you doe maintain them : although the testimonie and s●ffrings of vs your dis●ised and persecuted brethren , against them , haue sounded in your eares now man●e a day . Thus teach they not repentance aright . As for faith it cannot be sound , and true , where it hath not ground o● the couenant and promise of God : Gods couenant and ●romise of saluation , you haue not without repentance , as Christ sayd , * Except ye repent . you shall all likewise p●rish for surely God will wound the ‡ hairie ●ate of him that walketh in his sinnes . To preach faith therefore . and a●ply iustification by faith , to an vnrepentant people , is to ●rofane that holy doctrine , and turne the grace of God into licent●ousnes . But to giue the seales of the righteousnes of faith , ( baptisme , and the Lords supper ) to the wicked blasphemers , irreligious , and to their seed , it is a sinne of sin● for which your ministers shall giue an heauy account to Christ at his appearing . as haue counted the ●recious blood of his testament an vnholi● thing . and washed and fed therewith e●en doggs and swine , as the scripture ” calleth such vngodly ●ersons . And thus you haue not truly taught among you eyther rep●ntance from dead works or faith towards God , which are the doctrine of the beginning of Christ and the very foundation , as the † Apostle saith . I will now also compare the practise of the Apostles ( in the plac● which you cite ) with yours , that the reader may see how your right eye is blinded , to bring scripture so playn against your selues . In Act. 2 , 37 , &c , the manner of gathering and planting that church‘ is thus described . There was first the word preached . by the Apostles , verse 14 &c which being heard , pricked the harts of the ●eople , verse , 37. there was repentance taught ( not for adultery , theft , worshiping of Idols o● the like , whereof it may be that people was not knowen to be guilty . but ) for their particular trespasse in * refusing of Iesus Christ , into whose name they must be baptised , if they would be saued , verse 38 , then followed a playn separation from such as frowardly resisted the truth . vers . 40 , and none were baptised or ioyned to the church but such as gladly receiued the word verse· 41. After this followed a cont●newing ( notwithstanding the imminent peril of trouble and persecution for the truth sake , ) in the Apostles doctr●ne , and fellowship , and breaking of bread , and prayer● ; verse 42 , If you had walked in this primitiue churches steps you should before the constituting of your Church , haue preached vnto the poor ignorant and idolatrous Papists , ( which was the generall face of the land at Q Maries death , ) repentance for their sinns in all their idolatries . w●ll worships , and superstitions , subiection to Antichrist , his prelacie , priesthood , and gouernment . &c. To such as had their harts pricked with your doctrine , you should haue shewed the true way of the Gospel faith , and holy walking therein You should haue taugh● them a separation from the profane and obstinate ; and haue gathered into the Church , such onely as gladly receiued the word ; and with them you should haue walked in a holy communion and practise of Christs ordinances , th●ugh Princes and Parl●aments , tho●gh men and Angels , should haue forbidden , & threatned you for it . Thus had your church beē the daughter of th●t mother church in Ier●salem , whereas now by neglecting this patterne , and reteyning the Popish confuse multitude , and a great part of their ministery and worship ; you haue imitated B●bylon ●e mother of fornications , a●d ●re as vnlike Sion , as you are like your selues . The objection which you feared , and therefore would prevent with answer . : is yet of more weight then will be eased by your syllogisme ; the a●sumption whereof I deny For the true constituting of a Church by the word perached , call●ng men to a willing holy covenant with God sep●ratin● them from the wayes of Satan & Antichrist . his false & idoatr●●s worship , priesthood and government . vniting them togither in the com●union of the true faith , and bond of loue and peace , ( which ar the controuersies between you and vs , ) these poynts are cleerly set down in scriptures to the vnderstand●ng of the spirituall , as the history of all the Bible , and the pract●se of the Apostles , and primitiue churhes already alleged doe plainely shew and I am sure you will not deny , but they were spirituall . Whereas you would ●roue , they are not clearely set downe to the vnderstand of the spirituall , because thowsands of ministers and people of the chur●h of Engl●nd , are of contrary iudgment to vs : first we haue many testimonies of your own min●sters for the things that we defend against you as in * this and other books we haue manifested . Secondly , if we had no such testimony , yet what doe you but make your selues iudges in your own cause , that though we bring never so playn evidence against you from the word , yet if you see it not , or wil not see . it must not be needful for saluation . More vnsound and popish doctrine hath seldome been taught But I leaue vpō you the saying of Christ vnto the Pharisees , If you ●ere blinde ye should not haue sinne . but now ye say , WE SEE therefore your sin remayneth , Iohn , 9 , 11. And whereas you further bring aginst vs , forreyn churches , and speciall persons the chiefest lights of this age , first mind whither this be not ●lso ● ground of Popery , so to presse humane authority : and whether the Papists cannot for many of the●r heresies , allege the ancient fathers , ( the chiefests lights of their ages ) whome your selues I suppose will not deny but to be spirituall , seing their test●monies are often alleged by your church in pulpits and in print . Secondly , this your dealing is such , as both the better sort of the late Fathers ( as Augustine for example , * who was of m●nde that counsels , Bishops &c. ought not to be obiected , for triall of controuersies , but the holy scriptures onely , ) and the very superstitious Popelings themselues haue condemned : saying that ‡ we are rather to beleeu ●ne priuat● faithfull man then a whol Councel . and the Pope ( himselfe ) if a man haue better a●thorety & reason on his side . Thirdly your obiection and pleading against vs , is much like as if the Iewes should haue obiected against Christianity . thus : It is not needfull to saluation to beleeu that Iesus who was cruc●fied is the Christ : for then it would be cleerly set down in scripture to the vnderstanding of the spirituall Dan 12 , 10 , Prou , 8 , 9 , but that it is not for the thousands of priests and people of Israel , Gods own people , among whom are the chiefest lights of this age , the Rabbines , expounders of the law &c. which are vndoubtedly spiritu●ll ; are of contrary judgment to you his disciples , Iob 7 47 , 48 , 49.52 . Fourthly , ( as I haue before answered ) forreyn churches , and the lights in them , haue cleerly seen the things we stand for , and doe asse●t with vs , touching separation from Antichristianisme , gathering into and walking in a holy communion of Saincts , and other poynts of greatest moment between you and vs. as their Harmony of Confessions , besides other particular books many . doe testify . If you obiect their particular judgment of your churches estate , I answer , that is not needfull to saluation therefore they may misse in it ; and yet be spirituall : for if men i● their own churches profes●e and walke in the truth so farr as God giues them to see ; and thinke better of other churches then they doe deserue , such errors even the most spirituall are subiect vnto . It was cleerly revealed in scriptures that the Gentiles should be called vnder the Gospell , Deut 32.43 Gen. 12 , 3 Psal. 67. & , 117 Isa. 11.10 Chr●st ●imself plainly confirmed and commanded it , Mat , 28.19 , Iohn , 10 , 16 , Act 1 , 8. Yet the Apostle Peter himselfe and many other spirituall men , perceiued it not till in more speciall and particular weise it was to them reuealed Act. 10.14 , 28 , 34 , 3● , & , 11 , 2 , ● , 18. As Peter and many other godly then , fayled in esteeming worse of the Gentiles then they should : so learned and godly men now may fayl , in esteeming better of your est●t● then it doth deseru● . The 5. Argument . WHatsoeuer church is the mother of the faithfull , is a true visible church , but the best of our assemblies are &c. Ergo true visible churches . The preposition is true . because that regeneration and new birth , is onely ordirarily wrought by the word preached , Rom , 10.8.17 . Iam. 1.18 . 1 , Pet. 1 , 23. which is onely and ordinarily found in the visible Church . Gal , 5 , 26. 1 Iohn . ● . 5. The assumption is true , because many are ordinarily new borne in our best assemblies , by the ordinance of preaching in publick vse and force ; as appeareth by Mr Iohnsons foresayd confession , as also by the meanes of the causes and meanes ordeyned by God to beget faith in the hearers , and efficacie , thereof , Esa. 55 , 11 , Rom. 10.17 , and lastly , ●y the infallible effects of faith , and fruits of the spirit , appearing in the true members of our best assemblies , Gal. 5 , 6 , 22. Answer . HEre you seem to bring a new argument , though it be but the old in a new coat : for take away this mantel wherewith your Major is clothed , The mother of the faithfull ; and all the rest wil be but regeneration and new birth . wrought as ( you say ) by the preaching in your best assemblies . Which things we heard in your third argument , and there refuted . As you here vrge them agayn , I further answer , first to your proposition . Whatsoever church ( say you ) is the mother of the faithfull , is a true visible church But Israel ( say I ) in her idolatrous estate , was the mother of the faithfull ; yet was she not in that estate a true visible church : therfore your proposition is not true That Israel then was the mother of the faithfull , appeareth by the words of the Lord Plead with your mother Hos , 2 , 2 , That they which were willed thus to plead , * were the faithfull appereth by the●r names Ammi & Ruhamah , that is , My people and she that hath obteyned mercy . That yet notwithstanding this mother was not a true visible church , appeareth by the Plea to be made against her , ‡ She is not my wife , neyther am I her husbād : her estate being ( as elsewhere is sayd ) ” without the true God ; and her children that continewed in her idolatrie , should † obteyn no mercy , Thus you see a church may be sayd to be the mother of the faithfull , and yet not be a true Church of God. You would confirme the proposition to be true . because regeneration and new birth is ordinarily wrought by the word preached , which is one lie and ordinarily , found in the visible church . I answer , the word preached is to be found also in the false church ; as among Papists , Anabaptists , Anabaptists &c. as ordinarie if not more ordinarie then ●n many of you● assemblies : and although there be not such or so many truthes ●aught among them as are among you , yet the word that is taught , hath effect for sanct●fication of life , in as great measure , as ordinar●ly appeareth in your Church of Engl. ; where so much profannes reigneth , as all men see and know . The church of Rome . is as your selues pr●fe●●e , a fal●e church : yet doubt I not , neyther doe I thinke you doubt but sundrie children haue been borne vnto God by that harlot . The church of En●land , it as we professe ; a false church , your Ministery also fal●e : yet God which brought light out of darknesse , hath brought forth , ( I do●bt not , ) and saued many of his dear ch●ldren among you . But let not thi● embolden the rest to continew with you in your false est●te : least they finde no mercy with the Lord , because they be children of fornications . To your assumption then I answer , as you first set it down . I graunt it ; yet will not your conclusion follow for it may be a mother of the faithfull and yet no true visible church ; for the reason foreshewed , But as you afterward explain your selfe saying ; the assumption is true because many a●e ordinarily new borne , &c. I deny it thus to be true , because neyther is a new birth ordinarily to be had among you neither haue you Gods ordinance of preaching in publick vse and force . If your people were truel●e regenerate they would not sinne ; m●stike me not , I know the remainders of sinne dwell in the best men , and draw them to that they neyther * would not ought , but as th● Apostle sayth , ‡ He that is borne of God sinneth not . And seing so many and great sinns reign in your best assemblies . how can you say you are regenerate ? for I haue before manifested , that ordinarilie people are kept and continued among you , in an vnholy communion with the wicked and irreligious , and nourished with s●perstition and idolatr● : these and the like things are no tokens of true regeneration . Mr Iohnsons confession , is ” before treated of : and will not import that which you would infer . The causes and meanes ordeyned by God to beget faith , are not by Esa , 55 11 , R●m , 10.17 . proued to be among you For there is spoken of the word going out of the Lords mouth : but your min●sters are not the Lords mouth , because they ha●e not from him their calling ; † sending and authoritie to preach , b●t haue it from his enemie Antichrist , and ( as the Apostle saith ) how shal th●y preach except they be sent ? Neither are they as the Lords mouth : because they separate not the precious from the vile . Ier. 15 19. Neyther are the infallible effects of faith &c. proued by G●l . 5 , 6 , ●2 . to be in the true members of y●ur best assemblies : For seing faith is there * sayd to work by loue , and there is no loue of Christ , vnlesse men ‡ keep his commandements , and his command●ments are not kept in your idolatrou● assemblies : it cannot be affirmed that you loue the Lord , if so you contine● continew in sinne : or that you haue true faith . But rather , seing the contrary works of the flesh ; which the Apostle there mentioneth . * adultery . fornication , &c , idolatrie , witchcraft , hatred &c. contentions . seditions heresies , &c. are found in the true members of your church , ( for all among you are baptised , and all baptised are true members ; ) you are more rightly to be reputed vnregenerate and vnsanct●fied , in that your sinnfull and confused estate . Neyther haue you Christs ‡ power in your best assemblies to cast out the wicked from among you : but they are fostered . f●d , and blessed . with your word , prayers , sacraments , &c. and such as absteyn from your idolatrie and from communion with the wicked ; you hate , reproach , excommunicate and persecute : that your church , is indeed , a mother to the profane . But a stepmother to the faithfull . The 6 , argument , THose Churches for whome the Churches of God rei●yce . are true Churche● 2. Thes. 1.4 . But our best assemblies are such , for whome the churches of God reioyce . Ergo. The reason of the proposition is , because the churches of God haue the spirit of discerning ; a true church and ministery from a false ; as Ioh 10.27 , 5. Ma● 24 , 24 1 Cor. 14 32. and 10 . 15· 1 Ioh. 4 1· The assumption is true ; because all the churches of God , reioyce , in our best assemblies ; and haue giuen vs the right hand of fellowship and testimony of a tru●●hurch ; hauing ioyned our publick confession with their Harmony . Answer . THIS argument is one and the same , with the third of your first Constlerations , saue that it hath gotten the fashion of a syllogisme . The in s●fficiencie of this reason , I haue there shewed , and thether doe referr the reader . Further here I answer , that you turne the testimony of the reformed churches , to your best advantage , yet neyther with equitie , nor good successe For they joy not for your best assemblies , more then for your worst . but for your Church in generall , and the confe●sion of the same . They rejoyce for every Bishop , Priest and Deacon , and for every Parish that maketh such confession . as Bishop Iewel in his Apologie hath set down : Part of which Apologie they haue vnited with their Harm●nie . And why bring you them as approuing your best assemblies onely . Your Lords the Prelates may truely say you doe them wrong : to apply vnto your selues the applause which other churches giue to their Apologie . They wil tel you in your own words , the churches of God haue the spirit of discerning a true church and Ministery from a false . But the reformed ●hurches haue discerned the nationall church of England , ( whereof the Archb●shop of Cant· is Pastor● to be a true church ; they haue discerned the Di●cesan Bish●ps in England as well as the Parish Priests , to be true Ministers ; and reioyce as well for their Sees , as for yo●r Parishes , hauing joyned these all alike in their Harmony And what will you ( that suff●r s● many things for sep●rating in y●ur ch●rch . as yo● s●yd ) answer to your right reverend Fathers , against whome like vnnaturall children , yo● hau● striven so long , and would have them with their j●risd●ct●on ●ut out of your church th●t the P●r●sh priest or Deacon m●ght Lord it alone . More particularly I answer : yo●r first propostion is vnsound , & cannot be pro●ed from the scripture you allege 2 Th●s . 1.4 . from which text yo● must conclude on this fa●h●on . P●ul and Siluanus and Timotheu● reioyced of the Thesalonians in other churches of G●d , because of their pacience and faith in all persecutions &c. Therefore the reformed churche● reioycing for the church of England . it must needs be a true church . The conseq●ence is denied . True churches may err in their judgment of an other church , especialy if the● be not rightly informed of the stat● thereof ? as the reformed churches are not by that your Apologie . Moreover he that mindeth the things recorded of that church , 1 Thes. 1 , 3 , 6 , 7 , 9 &c. and the different estate to be seen in your church : may soon percei●e their is no l●ke cause of joy for you ●s for them ; that if there be a l●ke effe●t , it is in error . The reason of the proposition , is no better confirmed by the scriptures you allege : For when Chr●●t sayth Iohn . 10 , 27 , 5. M● sheep h●ar my voyce and they will not follow a stranger ; doeth he send his sheep to other flocks , to try their shepheards by ; or if I see my shepheard to be a th●ef , a hireling , a wolf ? m●st I commit my sowl vnto h●m , because other shepherds w●ll giue him the right hand o● fellowship ? In the other scriptures , say n●t the Apostles to the particular churches . and persons , * iudge ye what I sa● ? ‡ try ye th● sp●rit and beleeue not euery spirit ; But you would not haue our selues to iud●e or try , but to send over sea , and hear what other churches iudge ; if they ap●roue we must not disalow . You may as wel bid vs. put out our own eyes . that other men may lead vs ; and as soon will we foll●w you in that , as in this your popish counsell . We have learned to liue by ” our own faith . and know that † every man shall beare h●s own b●rden , and answer for himself to God. But you will tell vs , if we can iudge and discerne the true church : others can doe it also and better . I answer , I may err iudgment , & so may others , even whole churches , therefore let euery man look how he iudgeth , and how he de●endeth on other men : and let evey mans ●udgment be tried by the scriptures . For this cause we say vnto you ; seing we haue fought for the judgement of other churches , but can get no answer . procure you some reasons from them , in defence of your church , ministerie , worship , and ecclesiasticall gouer●ment : and if by Gods word they can just●fy those things , and evince that we haue done evil to depart from you : we will returne vnto you . Otherwise if they reioyce neu●r so m●ch for your estate : we are ver●ly perswaded , that both they and you haue more caus● to mourne , for the many abominations that are am●ng 〈◊〉 To conclude , consider in an example , the weight of your argument ; for by the like re●son the envious ministers in Pauls time , mought thus ha●e just●fied themselues That m●nisterie and ministration for which the Apostles of Christ reioyce , is true to be obeyed , and continued in . But our ministery and min●stration is such as for it the Apostle Paul reioyceth , yea and will r●ioyce Philip ● 16.18 . If you Answer the Apostle reioyced for the preaching of Christ , not forthe envious affection of the preachers , who might be damned themselues , notwithstanding their true doctrine : it is true . And so minde I for the reformed churches . They reioyce for the many truthes you profes●e against Popery , ( as we also doe the like , ) yet may you neverthelesse perish for your false constitution , idolatrous worship , popish hierarchie and other transgressions that are among you . Amend your liues therefore , and turne your feet into the wayes of peace , for if you rely vpon man , an● make ●lesh yo●r arme ; and will not he●r the word of the Lord that condemneth your iniquities . you sh●ll perish in your sinns , & other ch●rches shall not be able to excuse of s●ue you ARGVMENTS That the PREACHERS of the best assemblies of the church of ENGLAND , are true ministers of Christ. I TH● pr●achers after whose publick & powerfull doctrine , of the word do ordinarily follow repē●ance , conuersion to God , sauing fayth in Christ , loue to the brethr●n , and o●he● fruits of the spi●it Gal. 5 , 6 , 22. in the hearers , are true ministers of God and of the visible ch●rc● : But ●fter ●he d●ctrine of Gods word taught by the preachers of our best asse●bli●s , doe ord●narily appear the fruites of the spirit in the hearers . Th●refore th● preachers of our best assemblies , are true ministers of Christ. The ●roposition is proued , because onely the word that God doth send in the 〈◊〉 o● his ministers , is ordinarily effectu●ll for these things Ier. 23 , 22 , Esa. 55 11. Mat , 7 , 20 , Luk 1 , 76 Ioh. 10.1 , 2. 1 Cor , 9 1. ● , & 4 , 15. Th● assumption is proued by the answer to the assumption of the 4 argume●● 〈◊〉 th● churche● . Answer . OVR separation is from your Church consisting of many assemblie● all compact into ore bod●e , and from all your Ministerie both prelacie and priesthood . We cannot tel which assemblies or ministers be best ; for they that seem best may proue worst , because they most deceiue the simple : the wolf that comes in a sheeps coat , is no whit better than he that commeth in his natiue hiew : but he may doe more harm , in that he is disguised . Reason would perswade vs , that the Bishops are the preachers of your best assemblies , for they haue greatest dignity , fatherhood and authority in your church : they preach in the highest and most honorable assemblies of the land ; they are most carefull to obserue their oath of due obedience , to keep the canon● orders lawes and ceremonies of your church and set themselues against such as secretly vndermine the state of the church and ministerie of England , yet openlie stand members and professed friends of the same . They and their assemblies , are best ordered after the constitution and lawes of your church . So that to speak as I think , I know not which assemblies be best , where the Leven hath sow red the whole lump ; though I can guesse which you doe mean : but plain dealing about your ministers and as●emblies would haue beseemed you best . Tel vs therefore ( when you next write ) what ministers you mean ; whether the Bishops , Deanes , Doctors &c. that are in the cathedrall churches ; or the Doctors and Diuines that are in your vniuersities ; or th● Parsons , Vicars , Lecturers that are in your Parishes ? Again what Ministers they be whither Apostles or Prophets or Evangelists or Pastors or Teachers ; for all these are ministers , Eph. 4. and meet it is to know your meaning : for though Apostles and Pastors be both ministers ordeined of Christ , yet if one will say everie Pastor is an Apostle , he is but a liar . So you see it is needfull that we ransack these your ambiguous and generall termes . Now for your argument ; first I answer to the proposition , that though these fruites you mention , doe many times follow the doctrine of Christs ministers , yet not theirs onely , nor alwaies Not onelie because other men that are not in office of Ministerie may by excercise of their gifts work such fruites , as appeareth 1 Cor. 14.1.31.3.24 , 25. &c. I appeal also to your selues , whether you thinke not that your best ministers , though silenced , or degraded , from all ministeriall office : may not ▪ when they teach , work repentance , fath and other fruites of the spirit . Neither doe these fruites alwayes follow the doctrine of true ministers ; for Noah preached 120· yeares yet followed there not faith , and repentance in the old world : Christ himselfe preached to Chorazin and Bethsaida ; yet left a the woe vpon them ; and complaineth ( in Esaias that he had b laboured in vayn among the Iewes : and of Israel it is said , c All the day long haue I stretched out my hand a disobedient and g●ynsaying people . To reason therefore from the effects , this man wrought faith by his teaching therefore he is a true min●ster ; or this man wrought not faith by his teaching , therefore no true minister ; is vnsound , and vnconcludable by the scriptures The ●roofs of your proposition being examined , wil be found to light for your purpose ; if you mean that the officers doctrine , onely , or alwayes , is effectuall for these thin●s , to weet , repentance , faith &c often I know it is ; and alwayes it hath effect , eyther to life or death in the hearers . Your scriptures are , Ier , 23 , 22. which sheweth what true prophets should labour to doe , namely to turne sinners from their evill way &c , ( whereas the false prophets did otherwise , Eze , 13 , 22 : ) but proueth not , that the prophets onely did this ; for the Priests and Levites did it also Mal , 2 , 6 , yea priuate men may often turne their neighbours from evill , Leu 4 , 27.8 . & 19.17 . Prou. 31.26 , Mal. 3 , 16 , Mat. 18.15 . Iam. 5.19 , 20. neyther proveth it , that the prophets alwayes did this ; for Esaias crieth , Lord who hath beleeued our report ? Isa. 53.1 and it is written , that the Lord testified to Israel by all the Prophets and by all the Seers , saying , turne from your evill wayes &c. neverthelesse they would not obey but hardened th●ir necks &c. 2 Ki● , 17 , 13 , 14 The next place Isa 55.11 . sheweth the nature of Gods word , which is effect●●ll to make better or worse as he will that sendeth it : not alwayes t● conuert , for a Pharaoh was hardned by it : not onelie by the officers , f●r ●●is hono●r is to all the Saincts , to haue the high acts of God in their m●●thes , and a two edged sword in their hands , to execute vengeance in the heathens , and corrections among the people &c. Psal , 149 6 , 7.9 . The fruites whereby false prophets are knowne from true ; Mat. 7 . ●0 , are not the effects of their doctrine by converting men onely ; for so many b true prophets heretofore should haue been iudged false : but the doctrine it selfe , and the works of life and conuersation , are the prophets fruites ; which also may both be good , in them that haue no office at all . The next place Luk. 1.76 . speaketh in part●cular of Iohns extraordinary office , and work wherein God imployed him ; and proueth your purpose no more then the other . Iohn , 1● , 1 , 2. speaketh of lawfull enterers into the sheepfold by the door , and of theeues that clime vp an other way . What this will say for your ministers I know not vnlesse , to proue them theeues ; for their entrance into the ministerie by the d●ore , that is , by Christs ordinance i● his church they cannot shew ; no lawfull office or calling haue they to witn●sse for them Yea they are ashamed of their office , calling , and entrance by the Bishops , and secretly doe disclaym that to their people , & pretend their gifts , graces and effects , for proof of their ministerie , 〈◊〉 many of vs that haue dealt with them ; doe know : But what say I , secr●●ly ? nay openly and in print they haue yeelded , that th●y enter not in by Christ , but by a popish and vnlawfull vocati●n . The like seemeth ●o be closelie implied in these your arguments , where you neither name what office your preachers haue , nor how lawfullie they come by it , as the reader may obserue . The words of the Apostle , 1 Cor. 9.1 , 2 , & 4.15 . shew two things , 1 ● lawfull office of Apostleship , 2 and Gods blessing vpon his labors in that office : neither of Which can be shewed by your ministers ; neither proueth it yo●r proposition more then the other places . For I hold with you that Gods lawfull ministers , are the principall , and most excellent ordinarie outward meanes , for to work repentance , faith , &c. but not the onely , as you would haue it . The Assumption , namelie , that such effects doe follow your preachers doctrine is denied . You refer vs for the proof thereof , to that which you wrote before : and I also refer the reader to that which is before answered And here I wil add a further demonstration , that true repentance can not follow your preachers doctrine , in as much as they teach not true repentance , neyther can teach it because their mouthes are mouzled by your church that they may not speake For thus ‡ it hath enacted . * Whosoeuer shall hereafter affi●me that the forme of Gods worship in the Church of England established by law , and conteyned in the book of Common prayer &c. is a corrupt , superstitious or vnlawfull worship of God , or conteyneth any thing in it , that is repugnant to the scriptures , let him be excommunicated ipso facto ; and not restored but by the Bishop of the place , or Archbishop after his repentance and publick revocation of such his wicked errors . Whosoeuer shall hereafter affirm that the rites and ceremonies of the church of England by law established , are wicked , Antichristian or superstitious , or such as being commanded by lawfull authority , men who are zealously and godly affected , may not with any good conscience approue them , vse them or as occasion requireth subscribe vnto them ; let him be excommunicated , ipso facto , and not restored vntill he repent , and publickly revoke such his wicked errors . Whosoeuer shall hereafter aff●rm that the gouerment of the Church of Eng. vnder his Maiestie by Archbishops , Bishops Deanes , Archdeacons and the rest that doe bear office in the same , is Antichristian or repugnant to the word of God , let him be excommunicated ipso facto , and so continew vntil he repent and publickly reuoke such his wicked errors . Whosoeuer shall hereafter affirm or teach that the forme and manner of making and consecrating Bishops , Priests , and Deacons , conteyneth any thing in it that is repugnant to the word of God let him be excommunicated ipso facto ; not to be restored vntil he repent and publicly revoke such his wicked errors . These and the like constitutions , hath your representatiue church of England made for maintenance of their worship , ministerie , ecclesiasticall gouernment , rites ceremonies . &c , against which your forward preachers heretofore so earnestly inveighed , as being corrupt vnlawfull and antichristian : but now behold their mouthes are shut , they may not preach repentance for the many abominations that are among you ; if they doe , they are excommunicated ipso facto , and then are they neither officers nor members of your church . Wherfore your ministers are eyther fain to hold their peace , and be such as the Prophet a complaineth of , that rise not vp in the breaches , nor make vp the hedge for the howse of Israel , to stand in the battel in the day of the Lord ; or els they preach for defence of your own inuented worship , pompous clergie , and laudable ceremonies ; and are such as the prophet blameth for b hauing seen a vayne vision , and spoken a lying divination , saying , the Lord sayth it , albeit he hath not spoken . What reward then can they exspect for their preaching but as the Lord there threatneth , that c his hand shal be vpon them , they shall not be in th' assembly of his people , nor written in the writing of the howse of Israel . Wherefore if there be any weight or soundnes in this your argument , it may be returned vpon you thus . The preachers after whose publick doctrine doe ordinarilie follow impenitency , and continuance in an evill ●nd idolatrous estate of life in the hearers , ar not the true ministers of God. But after the doctrine of the preachers of your best assemblies , doe ordinarily follow and appear impenitency , idolatry and other fruites of the flesh in the hearers : ( as is proued by the answer to this and to the assumption of your 4 argument for the churches . ) Therfore the preachers of your best assemblies , are not the true Ministers of God. The 2 Argument SVch Ministers as haue promise of salvation in their present standing , ar true Ministers of Christ. But so haue the ministers of our best assemblies ; Ergo. &c. Proof of the assumption , Because the promise of saluation is giuen to such Ministers as 1 , are faithfull and wise stewards , giuing the household meat in due season Mat , 24 , 45.46 . 2. build gold siluer or stubble on the foundation 1 Cor 3 , 12 , 15. 3. continew in taking heed to themselues and vnto learning 1 Tim. 4 , 16. 4 , feed the flock willingly , of a ready mind , as ensamples , 1 Pet. 5.4 . 5. turne many soules to righteousnes . Dan. 12 , 3.6 . Ez● 1 , 3. Thou shalt saue thine owne soule . But these things doe the ministers of our best assemblies : Ergo. Answer . THe assumption of this argument I deny ; and will consider the 6. reasons that you bring to proue it . 1. Are faithf●l ●nd wise stewards &c. ] but your ministers are your Lord Bishops st●wards or bayliffes , not the Lord Chr●sts : by them the●r m●uthe ; are ●●ened and shut a 〈◊〉 . For let them shew when , wher● & how God gaue the st●war●shi● and key of the howse to them , as he did to a E●akin , Th●s should be first cleared , before they presume to administer as stewards . Did not the Bishop ( after they had ●romised their reverend obedience vnto him ) say vnto ech of them , b Rec●ive the holy Ghost wh●se sinns thou doost forgiue th●y ar forgiuen &c , & be thou a faithfull dispensour of the word of God , & c ? Thus haue they their stewardship or ●ffice of dispens●tion , fr●m their spirituall Lord , and reverend Father the ●relate ; who by his presuming to giue the Holy Gh●st , should seem to be c Christ , or rather , as I think d Antichrist : but say you whether he be , when you next write . As is their calling , such is their administration : for , they feed not Gods houshold , but confuse assemblie● , wherein are many ●rofane , ●uch as Christ caleth e dogs & swine , vnworthy to be at his table ; tho your stewards admit them to the table of your church , to your most holy actions . Neyther giue they them meat in due season ; for such diet as is meet for them , to rebuke them for their idolatrous estate , they giue them not ; false doctr●nes f many they giue them to feed on and such meats Christ never left for his houshold . Finally , if the Bishops silence them , & set vnpreaching priests in their places , they feed their flocks no longer but leaue them to the wolf . And are these your faithfull stewards ? They are such as was the steward Shebna , to whome the Lord sayd what hast thou to do● h●r● ? I will driue the from thy station . Isa , 22 , 15 , 19. 2 , Build gol● si●uer or stuble on th'foūda●●ō First ther is not yet a good foundation layd of your ch●rch ; what then is your building ? There is no good foundat●on , because your church neuer yet stroke a holy and orderly couenant with Christ , according to the rules of his testament . S●condly they ha●e not been called or sent of God to build , but eyther have intruded themselues , or els by the Bishops , the Lords of your haruest , haue these y●ur laborers been thrist forth . Thirdly they bu●ld much stubble indeed , little gold or siluer that will endure the s●re ; let the frame and constitution of your church , the worship , ministery and gouerment thereof , be brought to the triall of Gods word , and it w●ll burne these thin●s to ashes . Yet if your min●sters will be content their works shall burne ; and will vpon the true foundation build better ▪ they ●ay through the mercy of God be saued , which I hartely wish vnto them al Otherwise , thus sayth the Lord ; g Because th●y hau● deceiued my people , saying PEACE and there was no peace ; and one built vp a wall , and behold the others daubed it with vptempered morter , say vnto them which daub it with vntempered morter , that it shall fall a I will destroy the wall that ye haue daubed with vntempered morter , and bring it downe to the ground , so that the foundation thereof shal be discouered , and it shall fall , and ye shall be consumed in the midds thereof ; and ye shall know that I am the Lord. 3. Continew in taking heed to themselues and vnto learn●ng . ] First , these words were spoken to one , that had a lawful office , calling and entrance and so serueth nothing for your ministers , that want all these . Secondly by b learning is meant teaching of the people , ( as the words following also shew ; ) which he willeth Timothee to continew in : but this your ministers doe not ; for the doctrine that is most needful for the present state of the people , they teach not ; besides , if their Lords the Bishops forbid them , they continew not with their flocks , nor their flocks with them ; but another hirel●ng comes in their place . 4. Feed the flock willingly ) First Christs flock is of c sheep , not of carnall worldlings , atheists , blasphemers , and other l●ke wild beasts of the forrest : Christ would not haue his childrens bread to be cast vnto dogs ; as your ministers apply their word and sacraments , to the most profane and their seed . Secondly to d feed importeth also , to e rule & gouern ; but that your ministers doe not , both they and their flocks are subiect to other Lords & gouerno●rs , the Prelates , which loue preeminence , and haue authority ouer your church to suspend , silence , and excommunicate priests and people . If the flocks of your Min●sters wer● Christs sheep , they would not hear the voyce of strangers , Iohn , 10 . 5· But the people of your parishes , if the Bishop depose their shepheard and set a wolf or a blinde guide over them they submit vnto him , and take him for their priest ; and their former sheepheard feeds no more , but giues place to the stranger . O idol shepheard , that leaueth the flock Zach , 11 , 17. 5. Turn many soules to righteousnes . ) The contrary is true : they hinder many sowles from righteousnes , by preaching against the truth and witnesses thereof , by pleading for Baal , and toleration of the evils that are among you 6. Eze 3. Thou shalt saue thine own soul. ) This was conditionall , if he warned the wicked of the evill way wherein he walked ; vers . 18.19 . &c. which your ministers doe not , ( as before is shewed , ) but strenthen the people in an evill way . How then shal they saue their soules ? Agayn this was spoken to Ezekiel who had a lawfull office , calling & sending from God , vers . 1.4.11 . &c. and you should first haue proued that your Ministers haue these and then you might haue spoken of their administration . But seing they haue neyther true office , lawfull calling , nor good administration : your conclusion is amysse , for the premisses doe not proue it . The 3. Argument . THose ministers by whome the Saints are gathered , which doe the work of the ministery , which edify the body of Christ , are the ministers of Christ. But such are the minist●rs of our best assemblies : Ergo The prop●sition is made manifest by Eph. 4.11 , 12 , where it approues that these works are proper effects of the publick ministery giuen by Christ : also none can ordinarily build vp Gods church , but such as God giueth to this end 1 Cor. 3.5 , 6 , 9 , 10. The assumption is proued , because the ministers of our best assemblies , doe gather the Saints from the reprobates , making a manifest separation , and being gathered , doe build the body of Christ in godlynes , by their ordinary preaching in these assemblies . Anwser . THe assumption or 2 , part of your argument that such are the Ministers of your best assembli●s , is denyed ; for these reasons . 1 In Ephes 4. it is sayd , He , ( that is Christ , ) gaue but your ministers are giuen by the Bishops : and for disobed●ence to them , are taken away agayn from your parishes : Christ never gaue such hirelings 2. The ministers mentioned in Eph. 4 , are Apostl●s Propets Evangelists Pastors and Teachers . Your min●sters are none of these , but Priests , Parsons Vicars , &c. whose very names , besides their offices , calling &c. ) shew them to be from Antichr●st . 3. Your ministers gather not the Saints , but persecute and scatter them as we know by experiēce : they gather ( or keep being gathered ) a cōfused idolatrous multitude , svch as is in their parishes : the right way of gathering a church by separation from the world , they know not , or will not acknowledge . 4. They doe not the work of Christs ministery , which is aright to dispense the word , seales , censures &c according to the scriptures : but the work of Antichrists ministery , in reading the service book , marying , burying , churching of women , & the like ; as in your Leiturgie & other church books are set down . 5. They edify not the body of Christ , but build and fortify the tower of Babel their confused assemblies ; which were constituted of ignorant idolatrous papists , and other profane , the very body of Antichrist : but the way of truth and such as walke therein , are evill spoken of by your Ministers , as their books , sermons , conferences &c , dayly shew . For all which reasons , the right conclusion of your argument should be this , that the ministers of your best assemblies . are the ministers of Antichrist . To proue , your assumption , you giue vs your bare word , saying they do gather the Saints from the reprobats ; making a manifest separatiō &c. This is to proue the same by the same : they doe so because they do so ; wheras all the world may may see , they doe not so . For the church of Eng. , and parish assemblies thereof , from which we haue departed , consist of all sorts of persons ; the ministers stand priests by law to the whole parishes , whereof all are partakers of the holy things of God , every one baptized &c. and can you say , they are not then builded in and with your church ? And for separation , we know your priests , nor the whole parish , cannot excommunicate any , be they never so blasphemous , wicked or licentious : that power is in the Bishops courts And how few are excommunicated for their heresies , blasphemies , atheisme or wicked life , who knoweth not : but for wel doing , you haue excommunicated many . And further , if any of your ministers should goe about to make a separation or gather any other churches or assemblies , then are already by the lawes of the land established and allowed they are ipso facto excommunicated , by force of the Canons of your church ; made in Anno 1603. Can. 9 , 11 , 1● . So still the open wicked remayn edified with the rest in your church , & there is no such separation , as you against all mens knowledge doe pretend . Your argument therefore is no better , then as if Ieroboams priests should thus haue pleaded . Those priests that teach Iacob . Gods iudgements , and Israel his law , that put incense before the face of God , and and b●rnt offrings vpon his alter , are the true priests of God : Deut , 33.10 But these things doe we : therefore we are true priests . If you say their assum●tion is false ; the like is sayd of yours ; and your works plainly proue your assumption most vntrue . The 4. Argument THose ministers by whose ministery and preaching , the overthrow of the kingdome of Antichrist is effected , are the ministers of Christ. But such are the ministers of our best assemblies : Ergo the true ministers of Christ The proposition is proued , 2 Cor , 10 , 4 5.2 Thes 2.8 . Reu , 14.6.7.8 . & 18 12. & 11 , 3 , 11. The assumption is manifest ; for that the ministers of our best assemblies haue weakned and thrown down and doe still f●ght and prevayl against the kingdom of Antichrist , by the power of Christ ; 2. Thes , 2 , 8 , and Satan cannot cast out Satan . Mark. 3.23 . Answer THere is no cause or person so bad , but many haue store of such arguments as you bring for your ministers wherein you assume & take for granted that which is most needful to be proued : & if we wil not beleeu your bold affirmation , contrary to our knowledge and the truth of your estate , your ministery hath nothing to justify or confirme it . The assumption of this argument I deny ; for your ministers haue not throwen down Antichrists kingdo●e , but sought rather to hold it vp . Here in sted of due proof , you tel vs it is manifest , for that the ministers of your best assemblies haue weakned &c , the kingdome of Antichrist . Thus again you prou the sa●e by the sain ; & say that is manifest which is most obscur & vnknown ūto vs : & to discouer your falsehood , I wil briefly shew , how the scriptures that you bring for your propositiō ; do disprou your assumptiō . The weapons of our warfare ( sayth the Apostle . 2 Cor , 10 , 4 , 5. ) are not carnall but mighty through God , to cast down holds , casting down the imaginations and every high thing that is exalted against the knowledge of God. &c. But the weapons of your ministers warfare , haue been carnal , not mightie through God. For against the remaynders of Antichrists kingdome among you , they haue sued to Parliaments , that the arm of fle●h might throw down the prelates , their courts , and corruptions but when the state hath not hearkned to them , what haue your ministers done but submitted themselues to their spirituall Lords ; or at least weise ceased their warfare against them ; and in their sermons and writings , haue turned the edge of the●r sword against vs that haue departed from Babylon And what haue they throwen down by their preaching these half hundred yeares ? Is there any of their Romish abuses , that they haue got reformed ? any one of the rabble of Antichristian officers , courts , canons &c. cast out of the Church ? Nay themselues now are ca●t out , if they speak or write any more against them , as they did in times past . Doe not all their people stand still in subiection vnder that Leitourgie , prelacie , priesthood and popish ecclesiasticall gouernment which were set ouer them at the first ? They haue warred with the Antichristians , as did Israel with the Canaanites ; when they were a mixed among them , and learned their works , and serued their idols , which were their ruine . Therefore are these enemies , become thornes to the sides , and pricks to the eyes of your best ministers and people , vexing them in the land wherin they dwel ; as God did threaten Num. 33 , 55. So when th' Apostle sayth 2 Thes , 2.8 . that the Lord shall consume ( Antichrist with the spirit of his mouth , and abolish him with the brightnes of his comming ; may we not hereby learne , that Gods spirit is not in your ministers mouthes , seing they haue not consumed or abolished , the Antichristian prelacie , and other abominations of that man of sinne ? nay it is evident they maynten Antichrist , for haue they not al , receiued their ministery from the prelates & promised obediēce to their ordinaris , yet your preachers wer wōt to say the prelats ar Antichristiā . Agayn if your ministers had in them the spirit of the Lords mouth , they would ere this time , haue made a separatiō from the wicked , popish , & sinful generation , for God sayd vnto Ieremie , b if thou take away the precious from the vile , thou shal be as my mouth . But this doctrine of separation , your ministers wil neyther teach , nor suffer to be taught ; but lock vp the kingdome of heauen as much as they can , that men may not enter : they blame vs for nothing so much , as for separation , when nothing is more needfull to be done , if we will keep the couenant of our God , and maynteyn that war which his own Maiestie first proclaymed , between the womans seed , and the ser●ents , Gen. 3 , 15. so vnlike your ministers be to the mouth of God. As vnlike they are also to those Angels and witnesses Reu. 18. & 14. & 11. wh●ch cried the downfall of Antichrists pompous church and ministerie , and called al Gods children out of it , saying a Goe cut of her my people ; but your ministers cry that men should tarry within , as the b potters , that contrary to c Gods commaundement dwelt with the king ( of Babel ) for h●s work : and such as are gone out , they labour to bring back agayne , saying that with them is the true doctrine of saluation ; their errors ar not fundamentall their corruptions abolish not from Christ , all reformed churches ap●roue of the●r church and ministery : and many such Babilonian songs , haue we heard among them And whereas in Re● , 14 there followed an Angel , that with a lowd voyce threatned all those d that worshipped the beast and his image and receiued his mark in forehead or in hand ; your ministers themselues stand vnder that wrath , whiles the mark of the beast is so open in the●r foreheads , by that false ministery of priesthood which they haue receiued from e the Bishops whose vnlawfull authority and iurisdiction they submit vnto and teach men to doe the like in wh●ch respect they cannot excuse themselues from worshipping the Beast , seing that hierarchie and prelacy‘ is by the light of Gods word and by the a●te●tation of the Christian reformed churches , and by your own confession heretofore , found to be Antichr●stian ; if the Pope be Anti●hris● , & R●me be the throne of the Beast . Thus men may see that your ministers are far from overthrowing Antichrist kingdome & your selfe haue shewed a good reason why : Satan cannot cast out Satan . The 5. argument . THose ministers which are the sauiour of death to the wicked , and life to the godly , are the true ministers of Christ , 1 Cor. 2.16 . Such are the ministers of our best ass●mblies . Ergo true ministers of Christ. Answer . THis naked argument , hath not a ragg to help to couer the falsehood of the a●●umption ; wherefore ●t may soon be stript and let goe . I dispr●ue that which you haue as●umed th●s . Your min●sters are not the saviour of death to the wicked , because they suffer them in the bosome of the●r church ; by their sacraments and blessin●s , confirme them in their sinns , doe not excommunicate the profane or vicious liver , but let them remayn in mixture with the rest , and plead for such a people , to be the true church of God. They are not the sauour of life to the godly because they preach not the way of l●fe tr●ely , by separating from idolaters and idolatry , and gathering to a h●ly communi●n in the faith and obedience of the gospel . B●t while● they persecute , preach , and write against Gods children , which pr●ctise the or●inances of his couenant , and by fayr pretexts and tolorable reasons , seek to draw them back to their confused assembli●s they are l●ke those whome the Lord reproued thus ; And will ye pollute me among my people , for hand●uls of barly , and f●r peeces of bread . and to stay the soules of them that should not die , and to giue life to the soule● that should not liue , in lying to my people , that heare your lyes ? Ezek 13.19 . The 6. Argument . THese ministers that are hated of all men for the sake of Christ , are the true ministers of Christ ; 1 Cor. 4 , 9 , 10.11..12.13 .. 2. Cor. 6.4.5 , 6.8 .. Mat. 10 : ●2 . Such are the ministers of our best assemblie● , Therefore true ministers of Christ. The MINOR is proued , for that th●y are hated of the most part , and of the most evil of all sorts , as were the Apostles and desciples of Christ. Consider what I say , ●nd the Lord giue thee understanding in all things , 2 Tim , 2.7 . Answer . THis your last reason comes al too late , and wil help your ministery nothing , For by the discussing of your former arguments We haue seen that your ministers c●nnot proue their office , calling or entrance into the sheepfold , by Christ neyther administer they according to his testament , but after their owne invented leit●rgie lawes , and Cannons , So that if they be hated of all men in respect of their ministery , they are not hated for Christs sake ; seeing they haue none of his ministery , hated it may be they ar of many ; so , are Fr●ars and Monks , and the rest of Anti-christs clergie , so it is written that the ‡ whore shall be hated , made desolate and naked , her flesh eaten and shee burned with fyer ; but it is the cause , not the suffering which makes the martyr , Whereas therfore your minor is proued by a bare affirmation onely , that so it is ; ( as is your manner of disputing ; you must take a better course , and proue things otherwise , ere we , will yield : for the Arrian , and Anabaptists , and all sorts of religion , wil Plead that both they and their ministers are hated for Christs sake : but every tree is knowne by its fruits . Yet haue yea no such cause to complayn of hatred ; for the ministry of your Church ; is aproued and reioyced for , ( as your selfe while are sayd , ( of all the , forreyn reformed Churches in the world ; and at home wee know , how it is reuerenced , honoured and obeyed . Your cheifest ministers being acknowledged for spiritual Lords , and right reverend Fathers ; the inferiour priests , as sound and excelent Divines , followed and flockked after by the people . And how they are provided for by rich Bishoppricks . & fat benefices , al ouer the Land ; besides their dayly intertainment , at great and rich mens tables ; who is there among you that knoweth not , These are not signes of hatred . Therefore let him that readeth consider indeed what you haue sayd ; and the Lord giue him vnderstanding in all things . O England ISRAEL thy Prophets are like the foxes in the wast places , Ezek. 13.4 . Positions concerning a true Church INtending to set down some arguments against the corrupt estate of the present church of England ; I thought it profitable to prefix some few positions , as a ground , whereby thou maist ( good reader ; ) iudge the better of that which shal be sayd . Yet mean I not to handle this poynt at large , which in so many other writings thou moyst profitably read : but onely to obserue such principall things as may giue light vnto the simple , who many of them mistake this doctrine of the Chur●h , and erring once , are ●y seducers further led astray The Lord reduce all hi● that erre , and stablish his seruants in the truth for euer . THis our English word Church , through custome of speech is commonly vsed for the Temple or place where people come togither for the worship of God : but they that are any th●ng excercised in religion , know , that it also signifieth the People , which gather togither for diuine service ; and this is the ●irst and proper meaning of the word Chur●h , as it is vsed to expresse the originall scripture termes , Kahal and Ecclesia . 2. This name Church , we English men ( which c●me of the Saxons ) haue receiued from the Saxon , German , and Duitch cames Cyri● , Kirch , Kerck ; whereby those nations now , doe vsually call their Temples or meeting-places : but the people which come togither in them , they call the Gemeine , and the Gemeinte , that is to say , the Communialtie ; & we in our first English Bibles called it , the Congregation . 3. As all religion is learned out of holy scriptures , so the name and doctrine of the church , is from thence to be deduced ; and there the Church is called in Hebrew a Kahal or b Kehillab , which signifieth a Convocation or Assemblie of people , and c Ghnedah , that is to say a Congregation : in Greek it is named d Ecclesia , that is in like manner , a Conuocation or people called forth to an assembly , and sometime e Synag●gee , that is a Congregation : which word is also vsed for the f place where●n the people assembled . 4 The Hebrew word Kahal is diversly vsed ; sometimes more generally for a great or vniuersall multitude , as g of nations and (h) of pe●●les sometymes more particularly for an a●●embly of one nation : as of i the Israelites ; somtimes for apart of them , as k the Elders and Gouernours ; or some l of the tribes of Israel apart ; or some m of all the tr●bes , euen n men , women and children : and indifferently for o any assemblie , and this not only of Gods people , but of p heathens also & infidels . 5. Likeweise the Greek word Ecclesia is of as large extent and signification ; vsed sometime for q the church ●enerally , sometime for a (r) particular church or congregation in a citie : someti●es more ●articula●ly in s a house or family , sometimes ( in the Greek version of the old test●ment ) for an as●embly t of Governours , or company of u Prophets , or congre●at●on x of the people : and finally for y any as●embly lawfull or vnlawfull , of good men or of z evill . 6. These words thus genreall , are in more speciall sort both by the scriptures , and by vse of speach among all religious peo●le restreyned and applied to such Assemblies and congregations as are called and gathered for diuine excercises : and so our English name of church is attributed peculiarly to spirituall or religious assemblies , called ecclesiastica●● and not to any other assemblies ciuill or pol●t●call . 7. Of religious or ecclesiasticall assemblies generally considered , there ar many s●rts in the world , all disalowed of god , saue one sort onely which he acknowledgeth to be his , and hath separated to himself from all the rest . 8. The many false sorts , may be reduced vnto fowr ; 1 The as●emblies of Pagans or heathen people , which profes●e some God , Gods , or , Goddesses , whome they doe worship , ignorantly , hauing a cha●ged the truth of God into a lie , and so seruing creatures , not ( indeed ) the creator , which is blessed for ever . Amen . 2 The assemblies of Iewes who professe the true God ( after a s●rt ) and allow the writings of Moses a●d the prophets , b●t abhorre Christ Iesus our Sauiour , and reiect the new testament , 3 The a●●emblies of Mahomis●s , as Persians , Turks , Moores , &c. wh●ch professe also after their manner , that b one true God of whom Moses and the prophets wrote , and acknowledge c Chr●st to be a Pro●het sent of God , yea and the breath or s●irit of God yet beleeu ●hey not that he is d God , or the e sonne of God , or sauiour of the world , but follow the lies and fablies of their false prophet Mahomet . 4. Finally the churches or assemblies of false Christans , which professe God and ●i● Sonne Christ , into whose name they are baptised ; but by the●r works doe deny him , and by their erro●rs and heresies , doe overthrow the truth of rel●●ion . 9. The 1 thr●e sorts , P●gans , Iewes , and Mahometists , beca●se of thei● so open and manifest d●ny all of Christ and saluation by him , are generally generally of Christians reputed as no Churches , the la●ter are re●uted no true but false church●s , and so also doe they esteem of true Christians , and one of another Herevpon is continuall controuersie be●ween true ●nd and false chr●stians , which is the true church , and how it ●ay be knowen . 10. To help the weak and doubtfull in this case , I will so truely and plainly as by the grace of God I can , describe the tr●e Church , which in the holy scr●●tures is called the Congregation and chur●h f of God , consisting of godly and holy peo●le named g Saints ; opposed to the wicked or (h) malignant church●s , the i Synagoues of Satan . 11. The true church is a people k called of God by l the Gospell , m from the world , vnto the n communion or fellowshi● of his sonne Iesus Chr●st , in whome they are o coupled and built togither . to be the habitation of God by the spirit 12 The church is said to be a people , p nation or generation , because it consisteth of many persons , or of a m●ltitude little or great : for though a particular Christian is called , and of the church ; yet no man is a church or congr●gation , 13. It is a people called ; q because every concourse or assemblie is not a true church : none of themselues can come vnto this estate , vnlesse they be r called or drawen therevnto : and they are sayd to be called of God , because he s onely calleth and draweth men vnto Christ with a (t) holy calling ; and addeth them (u) to his church , x no humane power or authority ●s able to doe it , 14. The Gospel z noted to be the the meanes of our calling , he maketh knowen vnto his people outwardly by his a word (b) spoken and (c) written , and inwardly by d his holy spirit : and thus the Church are all e the taught of God. 15. The state out of which the Church is caled , is sayd to be out of or from the f world , whereby is meant , first Satan the g Prince of this world , from whose power they are h turned vnto God ; secondly , the wicked people of the world , called the i children of the Diuill , from whose communion and fellowsh●p k in their religion , and all other wicked actions , we must be separated , thirdly , the corruption of nature in our selues , the lust of the flesh , the lust of the eyes , and the pride of life , l all which are of the world . and wh●ch we must m hate and n crucifie , & so turne and become o like little children , euen borne agayn , that we may see the kingdome of God p 16. The estate wherevnto God called his church in this life , is generally q to the communion ( or fellowhsip ) of his sonne Iesus Christ , as being their onely mediator and Sauiour , the Prophet Priest and King of the church ; which they beleeu●ng and professing , are al●o made partakers ( in a proportion and in their measure ) of these three offices with him 17. Iesus Christ is the r Prophet ra●sed vp of God vnto his people to teach them all that God commanded him which also he did , both by s himselfe , and by the M●nistery of his seruants t sent of him . And as [u] all the treasures of wisdome and knowledge are hid in him , so him the church m●st x hear ; for all y heauenly wisdome and knowledge is to be learned of him ; and every person which shall not hear this Prophet , z shall be destroyed out of the people . 18 , This Prophet call office of Christ , he hath communicated with the church , by giuing a to the same his word for their instruction and comfort , and b graffing the same within them , his spirit also as an c Anoynting to teach them all things giuing d gifts also , or ministers , to open and apply the same vnto their sowles , likewise power and freedome by e witnes f profession and g practise , to h hold forth that word of life as lights in the world : thereby to i preach vnto others the fa●th of Christ , to k ed●fy and build vp one another dayly therein , to l prouoke vnto loue and to good works . to m admonish and n reprehend for evill and iniquity ; to o forgiue and p comfort one another in the bowels of Christ , whose word therefore all ought to labour that it may dwel plenteously in them , that if any man speak , it may be r as the words of G●d . q 19. Iesus the son of God , is also the s great high priest or Sacrificer of the Church ▪ by whose ‡ obedience , and sacrifice or oblation of t h●s own body and blood , the church is clensed u from all sinn , and x reconciled to God : by whose intercession the church , with the holy actions & oblations of the same , are y accepted of God , and made heires of blessing . 20. And this his Pr●estly office , is 〈◊〉 imparted to his church , as they haue not onely interest in his z death and suffrings whereby they are reconciled to God , but also are themselues made a a holy priesthood , to offer vp spirituall sacri●ices acceptable to God by him : giuing vp b their own bodies a liuing sacrifice ; c mortifying their members wh●ch are on earth and d crucify●ng the flesh with th● affections and l●sts ; offring vp e contrite and broken h●rts , with f sacrifices of praise confe●sing to his name ; and praying not o●●ly every man for himself , but g, one for another , h doing good and d●stributing to the nece●sities of the Saincts , i suffring affl●ction for the Gospell and fynally if they be called therevnto , powring out the r soules vnto k death f●r the truthes sake . 21. The Lord Iesus Christ , is also the l gouernour and m king ouer Sion Gods h●ly mount , and sitteth at his Fathers right hand and n reigneth till all his enimies be made his footstool , being o a King , iudge , and lawgiu●r , to h●s people , p commanding and ruling them by his word and spirit , q j●dging them in iustice and equ●ty , preseruing and defend●ng them by his almighty power , r from all their enimies . 22. And this his kingly office he so communicateth with h●s church ; as they are by him preser●ed and defended from all aduersarie P●wer , freed from the dominion a of sinne and tyrannie of b Satan from subiection to c the world , and seruitude d vnto men : and restored to the ioyfull lib●rty of the Ch●ldren of God , e the world and all things in it made theirs : that howsoeuer they haue still to f combate with the Diuill to g wra●tel against principallities & powers : to suffer h hatred & affliction of the world ; an● to warr with the fleshly lusts , i which fight against the so●l : yet neither k dea●h , nor life , nor Angels , nor principallities , nor power● , nor , things present nor things to come nor , heigth nor depth , nor any other creat●re , shal be able to separate them from the loue of God which is in Christ Iesus our Lord ; who hath l made them K●ngs and Pri●s●s vnto God even his father , and they shall m reign on the earth , till h●uin● ser●ed here the●r time , they come to n reign with him in glor● , in ●he heauens for euer 2● . Vnto the participation of these promises and heauenly graces , are o, all peo●les ●r●uoked by the Gospell ●reached ; and such as obey the c●l●●ng of G●d , an● come vnto Chr●st , are vnited vnto him the●r head and ●ed●at●r , from whom● proceedeth the Iustification and sanctificatio● of t●e Churc● . 24. Iustification is the partaking of Christs p just●ce or righteousnes , ●n his fulfilling and obeyin● q the law of God , and d●scharg●ng r all ou● depts and trespasses by his death ; so freeing vs s from the curse , and set●ing vs in full fauour t with God and vnder his u bles●●ng : which righteousnesse of Christs , is fully made ours , and imp●ted to vs x by faith for our justification , 25. Sanctification is the partak●ng of Christs holynes by being y graffed with him to the simill●tude of his death and resurrection ; whereby the corruption of nature or z old man in vs , becometh crucified and a buried with him ; and the b new man or image of God is put on and renewed dayly in a holy conuersation . 26. H●th●rto of the Churches union and communion with Christ her head : now followeth the union of the churches member● , one with another : which is their● c cou●ling togither as one body by the communion of one and the same d spirit , faith , and loue , 27. The vnion of the members one with another is to be considered generally or totally ; and particularly . Generally as the ch●rch is called vniuersall or ca●holik , comprehending the a whole family of God in heauen and in earth , and the b, fraternity or brotherhood of all Christians which are ●n the world : in whome there is but c, one faith , in d, one and the same God by that one Lord Ies●s Christ , throu●h one Sp●rit . Thus haue they all one Father which is God ; one e, mother , Ierusalem which is aboue , and by the mediation of Chr●st are all made f, one , baptised by one spirit into g, one body , and al made to drink into one spirit . 28 More Particularly , they that are called of God , and members o●●he Church vniversall , are vnited and gathered into many g, churches or congregatiōs , in h, several cities & countr●es : every of which churches being i, joyned togither in the profession and practise of the Gospel of Christ , haue his k, power and l presence with them , and is to conuene or come m, togither in one for the worsh●p of God , and performance of publick duties 29. Whatsoeuer promise or blessing of God , is bestowed on the church on earth generally considered : the same may be apprehended & injoyed by every particular church , ( though not in like measure by all : as the q promises generall , and examples particular of the church , r in Corinth , and others mentioned in the scr●pture , doe confirme . 30. The Testament of Christ sheweth vs no Prouintiall , Nationall , Em●erial , or other l●ke Church , hauing seuerall meetings or a●●emblies , and special Pastors ouer the same : neither , since th● Apostles Prophets & ●vangelists were taken from this world , are there any other lawful Bishops or Church-gouernours , then the Bishops or Overseers s of the particular churches ; neyther euer was ther other lawful Head , Lord , or Lords spirituall , of the Church , then t Iesus Chr●st alone . 31 Vnto the ch●rch are to be admitted , all vnto whome the couenant and promise of God doth apperteyn ; and they are so many a as the Lord our God shall call ; and all those are called ( in the iudgment of man , ) which hauing b heard the word of God , doe professe c repentance from dead works , and faith in God , by Iesus Christ the alone Sauiour of ●he world , and promise d obedience to the word , through the holy Ghost the sanctifier of the elect . Such of e all sorts and estates of people in the world , are with their f seed to be receiued into , and nourished ●n the church ; their ignorance being holpen by g instruction , their weaknes h borne by lenity , their faults corrected i with loue and meeknes ; and their feeble consciences k comforted with the promises of God. 3● . Out of the Ch●rch are l all s●ch to be kept , as are profane , worldly and wicked , vntill they be called of God vnto repentance & faith in his promise : and out of it are to be cast all such as m sinne against the law of Go● , by errour or corruption , in doctrine or conuersation ; and will not by pr●uate or publick admonistion , be reclaymed and amended 33 ; Every particular church or congregation throughout the world hau●ng equall interest n in Christ , and in his o word or couenant : consequently ha●e equall power . and ought to haue a l●ke care ; to practise p all the commandements and ordinances of the Lord , standing fast in the l●berty where with q Christ hath made them free . 34 , Every one that would be saued , ought to joyne himself vnto some particular r church , where Gods name is se● , and knowen , and called vpon : that in and with the same , he may grow vp in the fa●th , and loue of Christ vnto saluation . 35. Although the church consisteth onely of s●ch as are called , yet these are of two sorts , some outwardly onely and for a tyme , which though they be in the church yet are they not indeed s of the Church ; othersome called also inwardly effectually and for ever . So that the churches on earth , haue t many hypocrites and reprobates for members of them : whose secret sinns , defile u themselues alone . Howbeit the x Lord knoweth them that are his ; & a true Christian may by the word 〈◊〉 spirit of the Lord , and fruites of his faith , haue y assurance that himself is the Lords ; of others , he is for their outward good profession and conversation which he seeth , to hope and judge a as of himself , leauin● the finall doom and iudgment , vntill the Lord come , b who will l●●hten things that are hid in darknes and make the counsels of the harts manifest ; and will reward every man c, according as his works shal be 36 , The best churches on eart are alwayes subiect d to haue open & greeuous sinas of all sorts , break out in them : all which ●niquitie● m●st speedily be redressed , and euery church purged by e repentance or f casting out of the impenitent ; least g wrath doe come on all the congregation , 37. For churches by sinning and impenitencie therein , may forfeyt their h couenant , and be i forsaken of God ; and for their adulteries by k d●uorced from Christ , and so l left of his people , the m candlestick being remoued out of the place . 38 , By this which hath been sayd , may appear , that euery people called of God into couenant and communion , with Christ , and one with another , and , so walking , though with much weaknes , ignorance and dayly syn ; is to be esteemed a true church of God : but they that are not so called and come into couenant with the Lord , howsoeuer they may professe many excellent truthes , yet want they the mayne essentiall thing which , makes a true church . 39 , A church thus hauing the essence or being : by ref●rence vnto or coniunction with Christ , which is n a secret and spirituall thing ; cannot now as it is a church , properly be seen with carnall eye Whereas then the church is sayd to be visible , it is figuratiuely spoken , and after a sort ; to weet so farr as by a peoples profession and conuersation seen or heard , men may discerne and iudge , by the rules of Gods word 40. As Christ the head and sauiour of his body , cannot be found or knowen by the wit or wisdom of man , o but by the revelation of God : so the Church which is his body kingdome and spowse , ca●●ot be discerned by naturall or humane skill , p but by the manifestation of God alone through his word and spirit . 41 , Hence it is that the true churches of God , are both contemned and condemned of the world as r heretiks , schismatiks , sedetious , &c. when the false antichr●stian assemblies are highly honoured and regarded . For they wh●ch vnderstand not the word of God , ( wh●ch natural men s doe not , ) nor haue the spirit of God , ( which naturall men haue not ) how should they rightly judge of , or discerne the Church of God ? t 42. And Satan to deceiue the simple , doth a deck his synagogues with many ornaments of the church of Christ , as b the preaching of the word , prayers , sacraments discipline he procureth them also honour amplitude and prosperity : when from the true church oftimes he taketh not onely outward peace and glory ; but bereaueth the same of Christs c publicke ministery of the word and sacraments ; by , persecuting , imprisoning , banishing and killing d the officers of the Church , and e scatteting the members . 43. Yet is not Satans synagogue for all the pomp thereof , a church of God ; because it inioyeth and useth not his word and holy things aright according to his f heauenly ordinance , Neyther can the true churches be spoiled or depriued g of the word of God , which is h, graffed in them , and able to saue their sowles , is i, seed immortall and endureth for ever : but in the mids of their many afflictions , they both k, hold forth that word of life , as lights vnto the world ; and by the same doe l edify and comfort one another , in the faith and feare of God ; whose power and m presence they haue with them in all estates and places . 44 So to conclude , a true church is a sacred communiallty , consociate and knit togither into a mistical body , whose head m is Christ ; whose members , christians n of any nation or condition ; whose soul is the o word and whose spirit is p the spirit of the liuing God : who gathereth togither q dry desolate bones , layeth synewes on them , makes flesh to grow , and couereth them with skin , and putteth breath in them that they may liue , and stand vpon their feet an exceeding great army Vnto him for all his blessings , be praise in his churches throughout all generations ; Amen & Amen . ARGVMENTS Disprouing the present estate and constitution of the CHVRCH of ENGLAND EVery true Church , is the body of Christ , and hath him for the head thereof : For ●t is wr●tten , ( God ) hath appoynted him ouer all ●h●ngs the head of the church which is his body Eph , 1 , 22 , 23 and agayn , to the church of Corinth it is sayd , y● are the b●dy of Christ 1 Cor , 12 , 27. But the church of England , is not the body of Christ , neyther hath him for the h●ad thereof . Because , it wa● first constituted as now it standeth , of the members of Antichrist ; namely the idolatrous Pap●sts , which openly professed Antichristian sme in Q. Maries dayes , ha●ing a Abadden the Pope for their head ; and spilled much christian blood , that they might mainteyn their Romish abominations . Who all ( except some few that of themselues refused , ) were at the beginning of Q. Elisabeths reign , rece●ued into the body of the church , and so haue continued , they and their seed euer since . Yet did they not then , enter in by repentance and faith in Christ , ( which two things b are the beginning and foundation of the kingdome of God , ) but by the commandement of the Magistrate , were compelled vnto the Church , sacraments , ministery &c. which then were by law establ●shed and euer since continewed . Now the Magistrates law , cannot work faith in any ; seing faith is the c gift of God , and by d his word onely is wrought in mans hart So that the Magistrate though he ou●th to abolish idolatr●e , and set vp Gods true worship , to suppresse all errours , and cause the truth to be taught , yet cannot he constreyn men to ioyne vnto the church , but they must doe it e willi●gly and gladly , the Lord perswading them herevnto . And these , ( of whome we speak ) not being perswaded by the Lord and his word , but ( ●s the worldly multitude alway is , ) be●ng ready to receiue any religion the prince wo●ld establish , rather then they would suffer persecution , wherein that their popish estate , the body of Antichrist , yet then compelled and vn●ted vnto this church . Agayn , not onely those that were popishly 〈◊〉 and superstitious ; but such also as were profane and irrelig●ous , atheists , blasphemers , whoremongers , theeues , drunkards , witches , and all other vngodly persons , of which then were and still are too too many in the land these al , though by reason of their wicked and miserable estate , ●hey w●rlimmes of Satan , and ( as the scripture calleth such , ) children f of the Diuill , were yet receiued , into the Church likeweise , they and ●heir seed & so continew ; as the state of that Church plainely sheweth . For e●en to this day , profane people , mockers and contemners of religion , tha● blasphem God and his holy name even in the streets as they walk ; such as cal themselues the donned crew , Familists , Athe●sts , and all other sorts of miscreants and wicked liuers , are members of the Church of En●land , vnited with the body and partakers of the sacraments , and other holy act●ons of the same . Now these children of wrath , this sinnfull generation , cannot possibly be members of the body of Christ , nor haue him for their head , seing they are not partakers of his life and spirit , nor called to his faith , neither admitteth he any such vnto him vntil they repent ; he hath no cōcord a with Belial , therefore not with the children of Belial : the members of his glorious body must not be the dead , st●nking , and abominable members of Satan Light and darknes , heauen and hel , will as soon be vnited togither . Neyther will it be yenough to say that some are affected to reli●ion , are of better life , and conuersation &c. and that for their sakes , the residew are sanct●fied , and may be ioyned vnto , and reputed Christs body and Church : for they that professe more sincerity , yet are not come to a true ●rofe●sion of the Gospell , or reno●ncing of Idolatrie ; but after the●r false and popish manner , worship God with the rest , remayning one body one Church with them . Now we are taught of God that the religious are so farr from sanctifying the wicked , as contrariweise the wicked doe pollute them , whatsoeuer the vnclean person toucheth sayth the Lord , ) b shal be vnclean , and the person which toucheth him shal be vncleane : ● wherefore come out from among them , and separate your selues , and touch no vncl●ane thing , and I will receiue you , and I will be a Father vnto you and ye shal be my sonns and daughters , sayth the Lord almighty . So then the religious and well affected people must separate from the rest , if they would be acknowledged of God for his and not think by their holynes , to sanctify the profane . Agayn , it is as easy to make peace & agreement between Christ & the Diuil , as between Christ and such open obstinate synners , the d children of the Diuill ; yea it ouerturneth at once the first promise of saluation made by God , and so the uery ground of Christian religion . For when God first promised redemption to mankind ; it was by Christ the e seed of the woman that should crush the serpents head , who in due time appeared for this purpose , that he might f loose the works of the Diuill ; & destroy and abolish him And as then the Lord put enmity between Christ and the serpent so did he also between him and the serpents g seed that is w●cked men , which being h. children of the Diuill would take the Diu●ls part to hate and kill Christ , and root out his ch●ldren and reli●ion : acc●rding to wh●ch decree and word of his Father , o●r Lord Iesus set himselfe not onely aga●nst the Serpent . but against s●ch wicked men also , as would not be turned from their impietie ; therefore he sayth by his pro●hets i D●e not I hate them that hate thee ô Lor● ? &c , I hate th●m with an vnfeighned hatred , as they were myn● vtter enemies . I hate the assembly of e●il doers , and company not with the wicked ; k Betim●s wil I destroy all the wicked of th● land , that I may cut off all the workers of iniquity from the city of the Lord ; l Three shepheards I cut of in one moneth , and my sowl loathed loathed them , and their sowl abhorred me : with many such like speeches , throughout the scriptures ; whereby Christ shewed how farr he was and would be , from being head vnto such wretches , or any way admitting them vnto his body , or the communion of h●s Church . And for his arch-enemy the Romane Antichrist and his adherents , the Lord Iesus Faithfull and true that iudgeth and warreth righteously , a he with his heauenly warriours after him , fighteth with that Beast , and with the kings of the earth that make battel against him ; and is so farr from peace with them , as he giueth vnto all the fowles of heauen for to eat , b the flesh of the Kings & hie captayns , the flesh of mighty men , and of horses and those that sit on them , the flesh of all freemen and bondmen , of small and great ; and casteth c the beast into the lake of fyre . By this may appear that Christ is no head of such Antichristians , nor of any other profane wicked worldlings ; seing his spirith giues them not life and motion , but they are caried by the spirit of Satan that possesseth them ; and warred against with the sword that commeth out of Christs mouth neyther can they be knit vnto him by ioynts or bands ; as d al his body and members thereof ar : & consequently that the Popish and profane multitude of the Realme of England , which at Q. Maries death , were made and esteemed a Church ; and they and their seed euer since without separation so continewing ; and at this day al the notorious wicked st●ll commingled with the rest ; that this Church cannot be sayd to haue Christ for the head , neyther is it his body . Therefore the Church of England , is not the true Church of God. EVery true Church of God , hath Christ for the mediator and Aduocate of the same . For it is written f there is one God , & on mediator between God & man , which is the man Christ Iesus ; and g if any man sinne , we haue an Aduocate with the Father , Iesus Christ the iust . Neyther is there saluation in any other ; for among men there is giuen no other name vnder heaven , whereby we must be saued , Act. 4.12 . But the Church of England hath not Christ for the mediator and Advocate of the same , Because , Christ is not Mediator of any other couenant or testament , then that which God promised by his prophits to make with the house of Israel , nor of any other people , then of such as are vnder that couenant promised , which was g that he would put his law in their inward parts ( or mind ) and write it in their harts , and be would be their God , and they should be his people , and that h he would forgiue their iniquity , and remember their sinns no more . Of this new testament or couenant , established vpon i better promises then was the old , is Christ the Mediator , ( as the Apostle k teacheth ) and not of any other humane or profane couenant , l made by or among the sonns of Adam . Now that the Church of England , ( as it is publickly and generally constituted , ) is not as yet come vnder this covenant , may appear by the ●articular conditions of the same . First , let the exceeding profanenes and irreligion irreligion that is among them , the open contempt of God , blaspheming of h●s name , despising of his word , and innumerable wicked acts , without fear or shame committed , besides the idolatrous false worship performed by all in their publick assemblies , according to their stinted popish leitoargie , learned and receiued from the Romane Antichrist : let these ( I say ) and the like , speake to euery christian conscience , whither Gods law be written in the mind or inward parts of such , which is one a part of the co●enant , whereof Christ is Mediator ; and which grace he promised by his b Prophets to bestow vpon his Church and people , when he sho●ld be their God : and when the grace of God , that bringeth saluation vnto all men , did appear ; it c taught so much . Secondly , that th●s church of England , hath no promise that their sins and iniq●ities are forgiuen , which is d an other part of the couenant , appeareth by their impenitency in this euill estate . For the profane , scoff at repentance , and scorne all admonition , they despise wisdomes counsel , and such as reproue , they turne agayne and rent them . And for the idolatries and false worship of the whole ; the great iniquities in the hierarchie ministery , orders , rites , ceremonies &c , they are farr from repentāce wh●ch wil here no reproof , nor suffer any to speak against their corruptions , but haue generally agreed and decreed such e to be excommunicated , as shall affirme any of these things to be wicked or id●latrous ; and they that would call them to repentance for their sinns , or refuse to communicate with them in these euils , are persecuted , imprisoned , banished , and haue long suffred at their hands many calamities . And all people are forced by fayr and colourable pretenses or by threatning and punishments , to walk still in these sinns . Thus want they the foundation of f repentance from dead works , and consequently of faith towards God for without repentance there is no promise of pardon ; & without promise , ther can be no faith ; and without faith ; no couenant or test●ment confirme● with them or their seed , as all the scriptures shew ; & if no Couenan● , then also no Mediator . Thirdly , that the summe of the Couenant , ( namely g I will be their God and th●y shall be my people ; ) is wantin● also vnto these , may be seen by the●r estate compared with th' Apostles doctrine , who vpon h this prom●se , ●resently inferreth a comm●ng out , and separation of themselues , from the world , if they would haue the Lord to receiue them . Which separation from the vngodly , as it was not at the k first constituting of this Church obserued , so vnto this day it is resisted , and pleaded against , and the holy scriptures vnsufferable abused to mayteyn a confuse mixed multitude of all sorts of people to be a true church . But , Christ is no Mediator for such a mixture , as himself sayd to his Father l I pray not for the world , but for them which thou hast giuen me for th●y are thin● ; and they are not of the world , as I am not of the world . Fourthly the Church of England is not vnder this co●enan● , because every euery couenant is made vpon conditions wllingly agreed and assented vnto on both parties , as was in that couenant a made between God and the Israel●tes of old . For God being a s●irit , must be couenanted w●th & worshipped in b spirit , he requireth the hart and minde , which if it be not freely giuen him , all rel●gion is in vayn . But this harty and willing submission c foretold to be , and d seen in Gods people heretofore , was not seen in this Church , which was by law of man compelled , not by loue of Christ constreyned to enter into this communion and religion , at the beginning of Q Elis reign , as in the former argument is shewed . Such complusion vnto religion , where God perswadeth not the hart , maketh men hypocrites , not true christians : which not onely Gods word , but even l●ght of reason teacheth , as Themistius a Philoso●her acknowledged , when he sayd of state professors , that follow the Emperours religions , that e they worship not God , but the purple robe , that is the authority and persons of Pr●nces . Moreouer the church of England hath not Christ for their Mediator , because they cannot come vnto God by him , nor haue assurance by faith that he maketh intercession for them ; for that they offer vnto God , a worship or seruice which themselues haue made and taken by im●tation out of Ant●christs Massebook ; which Leit●rgie or Diuine seru●ce , hauing in it also many erroneous , superstitious and idolatrous ordi●ances , rites , and ceremonies , ) being not required of God , nor warrantable by Christs testament ; they read out of their book dayly in the●r a●semblies , and offer or obtrude ●t vpon God. By meanes whereof they also extinguish the true way of calling vpon God , by the help of his sp●rit , ( as the Apostle f teacheth ; and bring in a fleshly and dead kind of seruice , reading other mens words instead of their own praying and calling on the name of the Lord. Which humane devise , is contrary to the second commandement , that forbiddeth vs to make or submit vnto any similitude or likenes of any thing in heauen , earth or vnder the earth , in matters concerning the worsh●p of God. And it , being against the old couenant or testament , which Christ hath confirmed vnto g euery ●od and 〈◊〉 ; against the new testament also , which calleth vs vnto a worship of God , h in spirit and truth : hath no promise to be sanctified by Christs Med●ation , who sanctifieth no idols , nor idol seruice or false worshi● , but contrariweise hath testified , i their offrings of blood , will I not offer , nor by make mention of their names with my lipps . For asmuch then , as the people which worshippeth , is not the called , iustified , sanct●fied pe●ple of G●d ; but an vnlawfull c●mmixture 〈◊〉 fall sorts of ●ers●ns , and forasmuch as the worship it self which they read with and before ●he holy bible , and thrust vpon God whither he like it or not , is a false dead and vayne inuented worship of their own , not commanded of God not iustifiable by his word : it cannot be by the doctrine of the scripture or a any prom●ses therein , that Christ should be Mediator for such worship or worshipp●rs , or put any a odours vnto such prayers . Ther●fore the church of England is not the true church of God. EVery true church of God , hath Christ for the Prophet of the same For of 〈◊〉 it is written , I will raise them vp a Prophet from among th●ir brethren &c. and every person which shal not hear that Prophet shal be desered 〈◊〉 the people . D●ut , 18.18 . Act , 3 23. But th●●hurch of England hath not Christ for the Prophet of the same . Because it hath neyther himself in his own person , to teach them , ( for he is now in hea●en , and there must be b vntill the time that all things be restored ; ) neyther hath it his appoynted ordinan●e of teaching by c prophesie or office ; which if it had , Christ were the Prophet of the same , as himself sayd d if I send any , he that receiueth him receiueth me . The church of England h●th not Christs ordinance of prophesie without office ; for it is vnknowen , vnpractised , and vnsufferable among them , for priuate men to preach in their a●●emblies , they must be ministers allowed by the Ordinary , els it is punishable by the law of their church , though by the law of Christ , all men may prophesie in his church , which is to speake to edifying , to exhortation and to comfort , and all men are exhorted to couet this m●re then other spirituall gifts . 1. Cor. 14 vers . 31.3.1.39 , Neyther hath the ch●rch of England Christs appoynted officers to teach , which are set down in scripture to be these , Apostles , Prophets , Euangelists Pastors , and Teachers , Ephe 4.11 . ( Of which the first three serued for the first publishing of the g●spel throughout the world ; the latter two continue st●ll vnto the worlds end , ) but in stead of these it hath the hierarchie and ministery of Antichrist to teach the same ; namely Metropolitan Archbishops , Lord Bish●ps , Deanes &c. Priests ; and Deacons ; which is none of Christs Ministery , eyther in name , office , calling , administration or mayntenance , but the very ministery of the man of sinne as he left it in the land , and as is to be seen at this day in Rome and other his dominions , and in the lawes and canons of the popish church , wher ar all the offices that now be in England . Thus hauing not the ministery giuen of Christ , but a different ministery giuen of Antichrist , it followeth also by proportion from Christs words , saying he that receiueth him ( that I send ) c receiueth me , and he that receiueth me , receiueth him that sent me : that the church of England receiuing such as Antichrist the Pope did send hath receiued Antichrist himselfe , and so hath intertayned him for their Prophet and not Christ. Now where it is obiected , that there are many excellent truthes publikly taught in this church and by this ministery of England ; it is answered that is not yenough vnlesse it were taught in and according to the ordinance of God. For false Prophets teach much truth , as is to be seen among Papists , Anabaptists , Arians , and other like heretiks . And as the morall good works which heathens doe , in honouring their parents and Magistrates , giuing almose , absteyning from and punishing murder , adultery , theft , &c. are not inded good works , according to christian religion , because they are not done in obedience to Gods word , by persons that are called iustified and sanctified by that word , and so not done in faith , and consequently a cannot please God : even so the theologicall works which Antichristians doe , in preaching the truth , praying , ministring the sacraments , &c. are not indeed , works pleasing vnto God , because they are not done by persons that please him , ( for alwayes the b man must be accepted before his work can be ; ) and such persons please him not , as without his c calling and d sending presume to administer his holy things . It is not therefore the work , but the word of God that sanctifieth the work , which we must look vnto ; for as by this the vertuous heroik and religious acts of the Patr●archs and other holy men , differ from the like acts of Pagans , and infidels : so also by this , the difference i● to be put between the works and administrations of tr●e and false Christians . And seing the ministers of England are not by Christ called and sent , ( as the better sort of themselues heretofore haue confessed , ) & so haue not his word to warrant their administration : whatsoeuer good doctrine they teach , it proues them no more to be true ministers , then the excellent doctrines and prophesies of the soothsayer e Balaam , will proue him to be a true minister of God , or that the Moabites or Madianites hauing him to sacrifice , prophesie and teach among them , had an ordinance or prophet of God. See Deut. 18 , 10.11.14.15 . &c. Agayn Christ is not the Prophet of this church , because a great part of his word and scriptures , and of the graces of his spirit , are here neuer spoken nor heard nor suffred to be vttered : and contrariweise much of mans word and writing is brought in ; as Aprocrypha books made of old the Seruice and homily books made of late , in which also there be manifest f errour● , l●es contradictions to the holy scriptures , idolatrous and and superst●tious doctrines , rites , ceremonses &c. taught vnto and obserued , by th' priests & people , an idle & soul-murthering ministry maynteyned , Chr●sts spirituall graces giuen for teaching and building vp his church , quenched , with other like evils . The proof of this may be seen in their communiō book , whose Kalender alotteth what is to be read dayly and yerely in all their Assemblies : where many chapters of the Bible are wholly and perpetually excluded , many Apocrypha chapters read as holy scriptures . And by the written homilies , the graces and vtterance of Gods spirit are extinguished that mans erroneus writing may come in place . Besides this all preaching Ministers so g, limitted and restreyned in their doctrine that they may not preach against any sinn by publick authority establ●shed , and if they doe , they are silenced h excommunicated &c. this indignity and dishonour Christ will not suffer at mans hands , to haue his word and mans word matched together , his spirit spirit & truth restreyned : he wil be Prophet alōe or not at al. as they that with the tr●e God and his true worship , had other Gods also , & other worships , are sayd in scripture to a forsake the true God , and to b● b without him : so they that with the true Prophet and doctor Christ and his doctrine , haue other also ; may rightly be sayd to haue forsaken him and to be w●thout him . For when men set their thresholds by the Lords and their posts by his ; they c defile his holy name with their abominations , and in d vayne they worship him , that teach such doctrines as be precepts of men Moreover thi● Church wanteth part and communion with Christ in that propheticall office , which he hath imparted to his peo●le , namely power and freedom e to witnes , f professe , g, practise , and h hold forth the word of life , and all that Christ hath commanded ; to i, admonish & k reproue one another for sinne and transgression , and eyther if they repent to l forgiue them , or if they repent not , to follow them further m vnto the church and even to excommunication for their obstinate violating Gods law . That they haue not power or freedome to professe and practise the truth of the Gospel in these things , appeareth by their seruile subiection to the hierarchie , lawes and canons which are amongst them , whereby they are restreyned from professing and practising any further truth then is by law establ●shed among them , but must obey & follow all that their spirituall Lords the Bishops doe inioyne them , and may not speake against or reproue any of the abominatiōs that ar in their church worship , Ministery , ceremonies &c. neyther haue power to deal according to that rule of Christ Mat. 18 15. &c , for any sinne , be it never so horrible and manifest , but must leaue it to the censure of the Prelate or hi● Commissarie , who at his pleasure buyeth and selleth the sins and soules of men . This bondage the people should not be in if they had and inioyned the word of God , which is the truth ; for that truth would make them free , that they should not in this sort be o, seruants of men . But now not ha●ing power to professe , much lesse to practise the truth : nor to reproue the euils that reign among them ; not hauing the free vse of Gods word in priuate , nor the right and lawfull Ministery or vse therof in publick ; they cannot be sayd to haue Christ for their Prophet , and Therefore the Church of England , is not the true Church of God. EVery true Church of God hath Christ for the Priest and Sacrificer of the s●me , for he onely is the high Priest of our profession , and to him it was sworne , thou art a Priest for euer , after the order of Melchisedek . Heb , 3 , 1 , & , 5.5 , 6 , 10 , & , 9 , 11. &c. But the Church of England hath not Christ for the Priest or sacrificer of the s●me . Because the gifts and sacrifices which it offreth vnto God , are not presented and offred vnto him by Christ ; neyther is this church reconciled reconciled vnto God by him . And first the worship and seruice which they performe vnto God , their prayers , prayses and confe●sions , ( which now are Christ●an mens a sacrifices , ) are not offred and sanctified by Christ , because they are false and id●l●trous , wherewith Christ hath no communion . For ●nstead of true spir●tuall prayer and prayses the fruits of Gods spirit in his ●eo●le ; they read a written leiturgie translated out of the Masse book : and accord●ng as they are stinted in the same , they speak ; obser●ing also the many Popish ordinances , r●tes , and ceremonies commanded in the same , as their holy and festivall dayes , holy eues and fasting d●yes , absolutiō of sinns by their priests , confirmatiō of Baptisme by the●r Prelates , profanation of the Sacraments by pri●ate administration and howsling with them , by gossips , by idolatrous signes and gestures of cro●●e , kneeling &c. also marying by the Priest with signe of the ring , churching of womē , burial of the dead , read●ng curses or comminations in stead of discipline , besides the sundry errours and vntruthes in that book , vayn repet●tions in their prayers , and the like . All which being commanded and vsed dayly by law of their church , without ground from Gods word , which approueth none of these idolatries but condemneth them ; are not sanctified by Christ nor presented vnto God hi● Father ; For he will b not offer the idol sacrifices , neyther will God accept such things as by his c law he teacheth all men to abhorr . Secondly ; whereas the bodyes and sowles of men are also spiritual d and li●ing sacrifices , and the persons offred in the Church by the Ministe●y of the Gospel , should be as the e holy fl●ck , as the flock of Ierusalem in their solemne feasts , that so the oblation of them might be acceptable f being sanctified by the holy Ghost : the people offred in this church are a confuse vnsanctified m●ltitude , not separated from the world , ( as before in the first argument is shewed , ) and many of them so wicked , ( even by the confe●sion of their g own ministers , and in every honest mans conscience , h as they neyther deseru to be layd on Gods alter , nor to be touched of any true Israelite in such respect . Yet ar they by the Priests of this church offred dayly vnto God , in their administration , and blessed in his name . Yea the precious sacrifice of the body and blood of Christ ( remembred and re●resented by i bread and wine at his supper , ) is prostitut●● as if it were an vnholy thing ) to the prophane and wicked in this church , which being vnworthy receiuers , are k guilty of the body and blood of Chr●st as were the wretche● that crucified h●m . Also Baptisme which should be an ingraffing into Christ l his death buriall and resurrection , and a s●gne m of washing away mens sinns in his blood ; is giuen to the seed of the vngodly , blasphemers , and enemies of Christ , vnto whom by no right it doth apperteyn . Which sacrilegious prophanation of the holy misteries , sheweth a manifest contempt of Christ represented in them : who as he communicateth not himselfe with such wicked persons so neyther the signes and seales of himselfe and the redemption that he wrought for his elect . For by his suffring he consecrated them onely that are a sanctified , that by b faith doe eat his flesh and drinke his ●lood , & the wicked which haue no portion in his death and oblation , when they participate in these seales of grace , doe but eat and drink iudgment to themselues ; the ministers which so prostitute Christ vnto the teeth of his enemies , and tread vnder foot the sonne of God , if they repent not shall not escape his hand wh●ch sayd , c Vengeance is myne , I will repay : & the people which by an imaginary separation are or seem to be sundred from those profane , and yet communicate together in such things , doe even by that action shew that they are one body with them ; for so it is written , we that are many , are one bread and one body , because we all are partakers of one bread . 1 Cor 10 , 17. This bringing of Satans seed into the church , unto the alter of God , may further be minded as a high degree of violating the second commandement , whereby all images idols and simillitudes whatsoeuer , of the Diuils or mens inuention or forming , are seuerely forbidden to bee brought into Gods howse , or vsed in his worship . Now such images or Idols , are these wicked persons . For as children are the d images of their parents ; and all fa●thfull people called the e children of God , are Gods liuely images in Christ , whose f image and simillitude they carry , himselfe being truely and properly the sole g image of the invisible God his Father , and they all being borne a new of him , are changed h into the same image from glory to glory , as by the spirit of the Lord , being renewed in knowledge after i the image of him that created them so Satans children , ( as wicked worldlings be called in scripture , ) are his liuely images , hauing lost the first image of God , k wherein they were created ; and into the image of the Serpent are changed dayly by his spirit that ruleth in them ; and him they represent in his malycious nature and actions . As it is sinne , and so esteemed , to haue images and representations , of beasts , of fowles , of fishes , &c. brought into the church and worship of God : so would and wel might it be esteemed more horrible if in any Christian congregation , there should be brought in pictures of the Diuill or other like helish representations . Yet men will not see the horror of this sinne , that the liuing images and pictures of the Serpent , even wicked and profane people , his seed and children , should be brought into the Church and worship of God , to haue part and interest in Christ and his couenant , whether he will or not ; to be offred vnto God & layd vpon his alter for spiriritual sacrifices : though they be much more abominable then vnclean beasts were vnder the law , as the l substance or figured thing , is more then the figure and shadow . But doubtlesse God , who abhorreth all idols and religious images of humane devise ; and Christ , who would not m offer the bloody sacrifices of idolaters ; abhorreth this confusion of Satans images within his church neyther will the high-priest after the order of Melchisedek , offer such to his Father , or be priest vnto them . Otherwise he should not be so faithfull in the house of God , as w●s Aaron , nor the sacrifice ; of the Gospel , be so holy as the shadowes of the law , which a were vnblemished . Finally , all that haue Christ for their Pr●est , are by him to bring their sacrifices for their sinns vnto God , that so attōemēt may be made through his intercession . For every high Pr●est is b ordeyned for men in things perteyning to God , that he may offer gifts and sacrifices for sinnes ; and every man is appoynted of God to present his sacrifice c by the Priest , who is to d make attonement for him concerning his sinne , that it may be forgiuen him . But the church of England , ( in asmuch as it persisteth in sinne , and will not repent of the many transgressions dayly committed in their publick worship and a●ministration of holy things , refuseth reconciliation by him who is the e high Pr●est of good things to come ; and f able perfectly to saue them that come vnto God by him . This their impenitency appeareth not onely by their perseverance in evill doin● , notwithstanding all the a●monitions and reproofs that haue sounded in theyr eares these many yeares , ) but aboue al , by their vngodly Canons & constitutions made by the whole representatiue chuch of Engl : and submitted vnto by the rest of the people . Whereby they publish vnto all the world , how they are hardned in their evils , that excommunicate p●nish and persecute all that s●eak against or refuse to communicate with their people , prelacie , priesthood , worship , ceremonies , &c. wherein are so many sinns and idolatries . For asmuch then as the publick seruice and sacrifice of this church is idolatrous , the holy mysteries , of Christ profaned , the people vnsanctified , and their sinns vnrepented of ; there is no word or promise in scripture that Christ is the Priest or sacrificer of such worship or worshippers Therefore the Church of England is not the true Church of God. EVery true church of God , hath Christ for the King thereof ; For of him the Father sayth g I haue set my King vpon Zion my holy , mountayn ; and he must r●ign , till he hath put all his enemies vnder his feet , and shall sit vpō the throne of Dauid & vpon his kingdome , h to order it and to establish it with judgement and with justice , from henceforth even for ever , Isa. 9.7 . But the church of England hath not Christ for the King thereof . first , because it hath not these officers which he hath appoynted to gouerne his , church vnder him , namely , i Pastors , Teachers , and Elders : but in stead of them it hath the hierarchie or Prelacye of Antichrist , Archbishops , Lord Bishops , Chane●llors , Archdeacons , Commissaries , &c. who reign or tyrannize ouer the sowles of men by their vnlawfull jurisdiction , ruling ouer many Churches making them constitutions and canons prescribing them words , both for prayer and doctrine ; summoning , censuring censuring , excommunicating , absoluing , both priests and people , making and deposing ministers , giuing the holy Ghost excercising also civill offices in the common wealth , and carying the titles both of Christ , and of the Gods , a the Magistrates , into whose places they intrude‘ hauing no warrant for their spirituall Lordships in the Testament of Christ. Secondly , because this church hath not the Lawes and statutes of Christ for to gouerne the same ; for although they haue the holy Bible among them , yet are not the ordinances therein written , practised or suffred to be practised in these assemblyes . As for an instance , the way and meanes which Christ hath appoynted for repressing of sin ( that enemy which his scepter alway b beateth down ) namely first c priuate admon●tion . Secondly with witnesses , Thirdly by telling the Church , and then if the sinner be not reclaymed , casting him out or deliuering d him to Satan by the power of our Lord Iesus Christ , giuen to euery congregation ; this holy and orderly walking , is vnknowen , this power is wanting in all these Parishes , who cannot excommunicate any person be he neuer so profane wicked or blasphemous . But contrariweise ●ll must repayr to the Bishops Chancellors or Commissaries courts , where things are handled and judged according to their own lawes and canons , and not by the rules of Christ. Thirdly , because the people of this church were and are ( euen by the confession of our aduersari●s ) of all sorts of people , as well wicked as Godly , and sins of al sorts doe abound and reign among them that if the good lawes of the common wealth did not repre●se them , there would be no liuing in peace among them . Such profane worldly people . are not the subiects of Christ , his kingdome is e not of the world , neyther is it f for the open wicked , but for the g repentant and beleeuing , for the h poor in spirit , the meek , the merciful , the persecuted for rightiousne● ; sake not for persecuters haters & cōtemners of the truth . If thus it should be then were Christs kingdome diuided in & against it selfe , and so could i not endure & be perpetuall , as the scripture sayth k it shal be . For both by the oracle of God , Gen 3 , and by experience we learne and see there is continuall warr between the womans seed and the serpents , Christians and the Antichristians , the children of God and the children of Belial or impiety so that the hauing of such sinfull in the church , is the bane and ruine of Christs kingdome and religion . The couenant made with the howse of Dauid ( on whose throne l Christ sitteth for euer ) is an euerlasting couenāt m perfit in all poynts & sure , but the wicked shal be every one n as thornes thrust away , because they cannot be taken with hands , but the man that shall touch them must be defended with yron and with the shaft of a spear : and they shall be burnt with fyre in the same place . Finally , this Church wanteth Christs power agaynst Syn , Satan , and ●ntichrist ; if any would deal against sinne and synners , he hath no w●y , but by complaint to the Antichristian spirituall courts . ( for the ciuill magistrate punisheth civilly , and not with ecclesiasticall censure , which is the power and scepter whereof we speak , ) and if those courts refuse to censure the sinner ( as they seldome cast out any except it be for wel doing , or not appearing at their Summons , ) there is no redresse of any evil among them As for ecclesiasticall matters , and the many abuses and abominations that are in the church , ministery , worship , ceremonies &c. the Priests and people of the parishes are in bondage to the Prelates , in seruile subjection to theyr vngodly decrees , censures and cursing Canons ; no spirituall Christian power haue they against this tyranny , but are fayn to seek to the arme of flesh , the Prince and Parliament , for redresse ; who if they refuse or neglect to help them ; then remayn they vnder the Prelates Antichristian yoke still , as hath now appeared by their practise these many yeares . But if they had Christ for their King , his a truth , his word , would make them free , he would make them also b Kings and Priests vnto God his Father ; that howsoeuer the supressing & abolishing of this vnruly hierarchie with their many abominations , is to be left vnto the Magistrate who onely hath power from God c to execute this vengeance , yet every man should deliuer d his own sowl , absteyning e from errour , false worship , superstition , popish thraldome & all other evill whatsoeuer , though with f affliction , bonds , banishment &c. and stand fast in the liberty g wherewith Christ hath made him free , without yoke of thraldome . For he will reign in the midds h of his enemies ; Satan and sinne he hath subdued , as for himselfe so for all his people and subiects , whome he hath redeemed out of all Satanean and Balylonian bondage , that sinne should reign h no more over them . But if they forsak this fredom , & take vpō them th' yoke of Antichrist , his seruāts they ar i to whom they obey , Which this church doing to the Antichristian Prelates whome they acknowledge for their spirituall Lords , receiuing and obeying their hests and canons , reteyning and nourishing such as be enemyes and rebells against Christ , k and remayning in spirituall bondage : cannot be sayd to haue Christ for theyr King and Lawgiuer , Therefore the Church of England is not the true Church of God. THE summe of all that which hath beene sayd , is this , That Church which hath not Christ for th' Head , Mediator , Prophet Priest & King of the same ; hath not God his Father for God of the same : because the Father and the sonne are one . Ioh. 10 . ●0 , and whosoeuer hath not the Sonne hath not the Father , 1 Ioh. 2 23.3 Ioh , 9. But the Church of England hath not Christ for the head , Mediator , Prophet , Priest or King of th' same as by the former Arguments hath ben proued . Wherefore it hath not God the Father for God of the same , and consequently is not his Church . THat church which is not the true church of Christ and of God ; ought not by any true Christian to be continued or communicated with : but must be forsaken & separated from ; & a true church of God sought and ioyned vnto , wher Christ and saluation by him , may vndoubtedly be had . Because we are willed to absteyn and separate from the false church , 2 , Cor 6 1● , 17 ; Reu. 18 , 4 Hos 4.15 . Isa. 48 , 20. Ier 51.45 , Zach. 2.6 , 7 , 1 Cor 10.20 , 1 , &c. We are willed also to seek and ioyne vnto a true church , Deut. 12 , 5 Song . 1.6 . Ier 50 4 , 5. Isa , 65 , 9. Psal. 26 , 5.6 , & 87 , 2 , 5 6 , Act , 2 , 47. But the church of Engl. is before proued not to be the true church of Christ and of God. Therefore it ought to be separated from ; & a true church sought for , and ioyned to , of such as would be saued . THose Ministers which haue and execute the ministery of a fals church are not the true ministers of Christ , & consequently not to be heard or obeyed as shepheards of our sowles . Because the ministery of a false church , must needs be false also , seing the church hauing no interest in Christ , can haue no interest in a Christian ministery . Besides Christ hath giuen his ministery to his own church onely , Eph 4.11.12 , 14.15 , 16. 1 Cor. 12 , 27 , 28. See also Ioh , 10.1 , 4.5 , Act , 20 , 28. Ioh. 21 , 15 , 16. But all the ministers of the church of England , haue and execute the ministery of a fals church ; for so by the former argumēts that church is proued . Therefore they are not the true ministers of Christ , and consequently not to be heard or obeyed as shepheards of our soules . For the further descrying of the false ministery of this church , I referr the ( good reader ) to a treatise lately published intituled , Reasons and Arguments prouing that it is not lawfull to hear the Ministerie of Engl. And to an other heretofore published , called A treatise of the Ministerie of the Church of England . I will put enimitie between thee ( ô Serpent ) and the woman , and between thy seed and her seed : He , shall crush thy head ; and thou , shalt crush his heel . Gen. 3.15 . Forasmuch as the children are partakers of flesh and blood , he also ( Christ ) himselfe likew●ise took part of the same : that through death he might abolish him that had the power of death , that is , the Diuil ; and that he might deliuer them all which fo● fear of death all their life time were subiect to bondage . Heb. 2.14 : 15. And there was warr in heauen : Michael and his Angels warred against the Dragon ; the Dragon also warred , & his Angels ; but preuailed not , neither was their place found any more in heauen And cast was the great Dragon , that old Serpent , called Diuill and Satan , that deceaueth the whole world : cast was he into the earth , and his Angels were cast with him Reu , 12.7.8 , 9. A BRIEF ANSWER TO Mr BERNARDS BOOK ; INTI●VLED , The Separati●ts Sc●isme . WHen the former treatise was almost finished ; among other aduersaries Mr Bernard commeth forth to fight against the truth , which but a while since he would needs seem to fauour : but things not succeeding to his exspe●tation , he hath changed his loue into hatred , And in the bitternes of his zele , he ha●h sent out a treatise conteyning Disswasions from the practise of the Gospel , which he pleaseth to call The separatists schisme , or Brownisme . Though in his book ther be little weight of reason or truth to be seen , nor any thing which may grealy trouble a discreet reader , who is but meanely acquainted without cause : yet both for the stopping of the mans mouth , if it may be , who maketh huy and crie after some of vs , as in his Prooeme to the reader he proclaymeth ; and for help of the simple who may be offended at the truth , not discerning his frawd . I thought it needful to obserue and answer briefly , the principall things by him obiected ; many of which are before in this treatise , and in other books more largely refuted ; and all of ●hem may , if need require , hereafter by some other , be particularly refelled . Herein now the Lord giue me wisdom , to discouer this adversaries falsehood ; and thee ( good reader ) vnderstanding to discerne it . Of his PROBABILITIES , THE first meanes whereby Mr BERNARD would disswade from the truth , which he calleth Brownisme , are Probabilities or lik●lihoods that the way is not good : and they are in number ( as himselfe hath cast them , ) seuen . 1. The Novelty of it . 2. The agreement thereof with ancient schismatiks . 3. The ill meanes by which it is mayteyned , namely , by abuse of scripture & deceauable reasonning . 4. The want of approbation of the reformed Churches . 5. The conde●nation thereof by all their Diuines , ( vidz of the church of England . ) 6. Gods iudgment against it 7. The ●ll success● it hath had . Such l●kelihoods as these , the Papists heretofore with as much colour and truth , haue alleged against the church of England ; heathens and enemies haue in former ages obiected the l●ke things to the church of Christ , and Mr Ber. speaketh but that which hath been spoken before him , fulfill●ng the meas●re of his forefathers . But to the particulars . The Nov●lty he maketh to be in differing from all the best reformed churches in Christendome But if a Papist had to deal with him , a he would bring those reformed churches also within the c●mpasse of Novel●y : and then Mr Bern. would flee , ( as his brethren before him haue done ) to the scriptures for antiquity : as he would answer a Papist , so w●ll I answer him ; let the scriptures speak for the differences between other churches and vs. But here Mr Bern. is mute ; and medleth not with th●s controversie he thought belike the very name of Noveltie and of the reformed churches would fray the simple If it be Nouelty to differ from the reformed churches , then may he blame his own church ●f Engl. more then vs , seing it differeth from those churches in m●e and weightier poynts then we doe : yea it hateth persecuteth silēceth & excommunicateth those ministers & people , that stand vp & plead for such things as the reformed churches haue and practise . Agayn these churches haue reiected and writen against many of the Antichr●stian enormities that are now in England . So if it be likely , we are not in the truth because we d●ffer from the churches in few things ; it is more likely Mr Bern. and his brethren , are not in the truth , because they differ from them in many Wherefore let him first pull the beam out of his own eye . Agayn where he standeth vpon the hard words which some of vs haue vttered of the Presbytery &c. if he had not an evill and partial eye he mought haue seen many moe hard & reproachful words vsed by his right reverend Fathers , and fellow priests against the Presbytery and discipline which the reformed churches haue , and the reforming ministers of Engl. would haue . That still his weapon entreth into his own bowels . His 2 likelihood he maketh to be our agreement with ancient schismatiks : yet any poynts wherein we agree with them in evill , he nameth not much le●●e proueth ; but referreth us to Mr Giffords paynes herein , who had long since his answer by Mr Greenwood to every particular of that his pretended consimillitude between the Donatists and vs ; to which answer I r●ferr the reader . Agayn , this obiection is such as the Papists make against the church of England for so b N. D. compareth Protes●●nts with Donatists ; and let vs see what answer the Priests of England can make for themselues that will not as well , if not better , clear vs And to come a little neare to this o●r aduersary , we could p●t Mr Ber. in mind of his own wayes , wherein he might see himselfe more like a schismatik then any of vs : for we openly professe our departure fr●m the ch●rch of England , as from a false church , so proued by evident gro●nds out of G●ds word ; whereas Mr Bernard holding it to be a true ch●rch & ab●ding in it , yet he and a hundred with him , made not long since a pretended co●enant tog●ther ; whereby they separated from the vnpreaching ministers , and all that hate to be reformed Yet are those rea●ing priests of as ●ood authority by the Lawes and Canons of that Church as himself , and the Conformists of farr greater esteem in this church , then the Reformists . Whether this be not a playne schisme , and Mr Bern a factious person thus to carry h●mselfe in a church , let himselfe say : as also whether he be not f●r this , ipso ●acto excomm●nicated , by force of the●r own Canon which sayth , Whosoeuer shall hereafter separate themselues from the Communion of Saincts as it is approued by the Apostles rules in the Church of England , and combine themselues together in a new brotherhood , accounting the Christi●ns who are conformable to the doctrine , gouernments , rites and ceremonies of the church of England to be profane and vnmeet for them to ioyne with in Christian profession : let them be excommunicated ipso facto , and not restored but by the Archbishop after their repentance and publick reuocation of such their wicked errors . Into like danger doth he come by Canon . 11 , and 12. The il meanes , by which our cause is mainteyned , he make●h to be strange expositi●n of scripture , &c. First Mr Bern. here walketh still in the Papists steps , who obiect the like vnto the Protestants . Let an indifferent reader ( a say they ) peruse the learnedst book of these reformers , and he shall see in them false allegations of Fathers , corruptions of scriptures , fathers , and councels &c. Sec●●dly I answer our expositions may seeme strange to such as are themselues strangers from God : but the Godly wise can discerne , to whom ( if they haue read our books , ) I leane the iudging of this probability . Now th●s old calumniatiō which Satā layd vpō the Sainct , how truly Mr B●rn . hath layd vpon vs , let his proofs shew , which are in these two particulars . First , that one of us sayth , All the truth is not taught in the Church of E●gland , and to proue this , Act. 20 21. is cited . Which one of vs thus citeth Act. 20 and where ; Mr Bern. nameth not . Good cause we haue to suspect his faithfulnes ; for in his book he chargeth vs with some errors , which we hold not , as after shall appear . And he that would so iniury the whole , what may we think he w●ll doe for a part . I suppose therefore the party cited that scripture to proue the whole truth ought to be taught which because it may be questioned whether it be needfull at all times , therefore the Apostles example is brought . As for the Priests of England , 〈◊〉 they preach not the whole truth , is proued by their dayly practise , who balk many truthes , touching the church , ministery worship , governmen● &c. as all that obserue their doctrines know very well . It is proued ●lso by the lawes and canons of their church , which excommunicate ●ll such as shall by the truth reproue the falsehoods and abominations that are among them , as before in a this treatise is shewed . And Mr Bern. is very silly , if he exspect any scriptures to proue what is now taught in his church . Furthermore if it be granted him , that Act. 20. were by some one of vs alleged for the purpose he pretend●th : yet it is no more l●kelihood that our cause is evill , then that his brethrens cause and plea against vs is evill , for they without all doubt doe allege scriptures for to proue things done in Engl : which it is not posible by the scripturs for to shew , See before in this book pag. 43. &c 44. But what speak I of others Mr Bern , himsefe is fayn to vse such colours , els would the glory of his church soon fade : for in the 48 , page of his book he allegeth God for witnes that they are his people , 1 by giuing them his word , Psa , 147.19 20. 2 by his effectuall working thereby , Ier , 22 , 22 , therefore there is the voyce of the sonne of God , Ioh. 5.25 , &c. If these be found and sufficient proofs , that England hath Gods word , because Israel had it , and so in the rest ; then why may not men allege like Scriptures and proofs against them , saying , They are stayned with their own works , and goe a whoring with their own inuentions ; Psal. 106 , 39. from the Prophets of Ierusalem , is hyprocrisie gone forth into all the Land , Ier. 23.15 , I haue not sent these Prophets sayth the Lord : yet they ran &c. Ier. 23.21 . and the like . So then Mr Bern. must eyther bring better reasons for himselfe , or els he may blush to blame others for that wherein himself is more faulty then they ; if they be faulty at all . The other particular which he specifieth is , that places setting forth the inuisible church &c. we bring to set forth the visible church by ; as namely ; 1. Pet. 2.9 , 10. But Mr Bern. shewes his reader no reason at all , why that Scripture must be vnderstood of the inuisible church , as he Sayth ; and it is an easie matter for him to find faults without reasō , in any mās writing . That place of Peter , ( as the wise reader may perceiue , ) Speaketh of and to the visible or Sensible church : for th' Apostle wrote to the visible christians , the b strangers that then dwelt in Pontus Galatia , &c. and this which he speaketh to them in Chap· 2 , 9.10 . is as Moses of old spake to the visible church of Israel , Exod. 19 : 6. Againe , he mentioneth the end of their calling to this dignity , vidz . to shew forth the vertues of him that had called them out of darknes into his maruelous light ; which whether it appertaynes not to the visible church , I leaue it for euery true member thereof to iudge . And such as these , are the exceptions that D. Allison ( to whome he referreth us , ) tooke heretofore : which because they are vnworthy a Dr. of Diuinity , we haue though best to passe by , as vnworthy of reply , till further occasion . The 4. likelihood is , that we haue not the approbation of any reformed churches Churches for our cause . This is much like his first probability , before answered , and seemeth to be a mayn propp to vphold the church of England , which loue to make flesh their arme . The reader may see this poynt thrise vrged before in this book , and thrise answered . I referr him also to our Letters vnto Mr Iunius whome Mr Bern. mentioneth : & finally to the Apologie of the church of England , where themselues say , vnto the like obiections of the Papists , th● truth of the Gospel of Iesus Christ dependeth not upon councels , ( add also , nor vpon Churches ; ) nor as S. Paul sayth , vpon the iudgements of mortall creatures . The 5. is , the condemnation of this way by the Diuines ( of England ) both liuing and dead , &c. But this is no other likelihood then it is like Mr Bern. ( if he had then liued ) would haue alleged against Christ himselfe , when the learned Priests , Rabbines , and Diuines of Israel , condemned his way and doctrine Ioh. 7.48.49 . & 19 , 7. &c. If these learned English Di●ines haue confuted vs , let Mr Bern. or any shew the scriptures and reasons by which they haue done it : if they were our aduersaries without reason , ( as some of them he mentioneth , shew little or none at all , ) wise men will esteem them accordingly But if such a Diuine as Bredwel doe but call our curse a by-path , this sentence is authentik yenough , for Mr Bern to put in d his book . The 6. is , the Lords iudgement giuing sentence with them ( of England ) & against vs. These things as they are before more prudently urged , both for the good successe of the English ministers , and bad ys●ue of many of vs , so I leaue the reader vnto the answers before made pag , 13. &c , 23. &c. Onely I would advise Mr Bern. to look better to his words , when he next write , and not to set down such positions , as may tend to Atheisme or Iudaisme ; as wherein his brother Boltons case that hanged himself he Sayth , which end the Lord letteth not his speciall instruments to come vnto , &c. A Iew vpon this graunt , would trouble Mr Bernard to defend Christianity ; seeing Iudas hanged himself , who was a farr more speciall instrument of the Lord , being an Apostle ; then Bolton that was but a ruling Elder ; and not the first brocher of this way , as Mr Bern. very vntruely ( vpon Mr Giffords report , if he so reported ) doth allege . Besides that Iudas after a sort repented and acknowledged his sinne , and was not ( that we know of ) excommunicate , yet came to that woefull end ; wheras Bolton for revolting from his faith at Paules crosse , was dealt with , excommunicated , and so died ( for ought that is knowen ) without repentance , a member of Mr Bernards church . See before , pag. 23. The 7. is , the ill successe it hath had , these very many yeares , being no more increased . The naturall man perceiueth not the things of God ; but iudging by the outward appearance , giues vnrighteous iudgement . If M. Bernard had liued in Noahs dayes , and seen his 120. yeares labours and preaching spent in vayn , how would he haue stumbled at the work of God , that gaue his word no other effect in the world ? And loe it is written a as it was in the dayes of Noe , so shall it be in the Dayes of the Son of man. But had Mr Bern. bene in the dayes following , when Israel very few in number b walked from nation to nation , from one kingdome to an other people , and notwithstanding the c promise of multiplication , yet in 200. yeares and mo● , had increased but vnto d 70. sowles , and as many moe yeares were in Aegyptian bondage : and had he in the mean while seen the e Princes of Israel , and f Dukes of Esau with the g Kings that raigned in his land , before any King in Israel . how would this man ( may we think ) haue gathered likelihoods , or rather haue concluded out of doubt against the poor afflicted church of God ? But it is no new thing to hear this pleading from such carnall gospellers . Wel , not totell him of Gods gracious work in bringing many to this truth and causing moe to listen after it dayly , let Mr Bern. look to himselfe and his fellow Reformists , and if his right eye be not blent , let him acknowledge Gods hand a●ainst themsel●es , who heretofore had so many fautors , and that not of the meanest in the land : yet now are repressed as troublers of the church , and their counterfeyt reformation further from all likelihood of effecting then was at the first . And this much of his vnlikely likelihoods . Of his REASONS . HIS reasons now follow , of more force ( as he h pretends ) then his bare probabilities . These are three fold , taken 1 from the evill of the entrāce , in to this way ; 2 from our persons so greueously sinning in this way ; 3 from our opinions which are altogether erroneous and false . The first sort of reasons , haue this foundation . The entrance is very sinful and cursed . Because of these 2 great evils . 1 That we doe not onely condemn corruptions and the notorius wicked , but also forsake i all former Christian profession amongst them . A man must cast off that word there with them which made them aliue ; also the faithfull messengers of God , the Fathers which begat him : yea he must renounce all fellowship of the godly there &c. But we may with the Prophet truely complayn of this man , that his mouth is l full of cursing and deceit and frawd ; for how often haue we in our publick writings protested our consent in all the holy doctrines that themselues professe : onely because we cannot enioy them without Antichristian abominations ; which the Prelates impose , and the Priests and people practise we haue separated from those assemblies , where idolatry is publickly set vp and maynteined from those blinde guides that would seem to make concord between light and darknes , Christ and Beliall , and vnder shew of many truthes , seduce mens sowles vnto destruction . Did the church of England forsake all former christian profession among the Papists , when they left the Pope and some of his Prelates , Masse , images &c. If not ; then neyther doe we that haue left but the remnants of Popery yet reteyned ; and doe walke in the truth to our knowledge and utmost power as God inableth vs ; not casting off any jote of his word , nor any faithfull messenger of his , or other godly person , as this adversary calumniateth . His hart knowes better , though it sendeth forth such bitter waters . 2. Next this he sayth a with such a renunciation of truth , must be reteyned , much vntruth : the particulars are 1 that men must beleeu our way to be the truth of God ; 2 and then condemn their church as a false church . Whether our way be not the truth of God , let the Godly iudge by his word ; by it also let them try the estate of the church of England . But Mr Bern. begging the question , will haue things to be taken for untruthes , before triall or due conviction . To help himselfe he seekes advantage by that we haue published as he sayth vnder our hand , that the differrences between vs and them , are onely such corruptions as are by vs set downe . Though the word onely be not ours , but Mr Bern. own ; yet to let this passe as ordinary with him , what gathers he from it ? Corruptions saith he , doe not mak● a false church , but a corrupt church , ( make the worst of it that can be ; ) as corruptions in a man , maketh but a corrupt man , and not a false man. First let the reader obserue that he speaks not a word of those corruptions which we set down ; neyther indeed is he able with our corruption to plead for them . Secondly it is very corrupt and grosse that he would perswade , no corruptions can make a church to be false : for then rebellious Israel , though they b corrupted al their works , was a true chuch still ; but Moses foretold that for c corrupting themselues , they should be none of Gods children but a froward and crooked generation . Now let Mr Bern make the best of it he can . His simillitude of a man is not fit in this case . A man is a substance , but a church consisteth in relation or reference to Christ , as a wife to her husband . But if a mans wife play the whore neuer so often and openly , she may be , by Mr Bern. doctrine esteemed a corrupt but not a false wife . Such distinctiō he may cary to the stewes . Corruptions there may grow in churches and they yet be true churches as at Pergamus , f Thyatira , &c. corruptions also there may be that will make true churches false ; as in Israel and Rome , where first wre assemblies of Saincts ; afterward they became g whores and habitations of Diuils . And there may be such corruptions in the constituting of a church that embraceth much truth , as will make it from the first a false church , as in Samaria , 2. Kin. 1● , 27.28 . &c HIs second sort of reasons , is from the greeuous sinns that are among v● , by reason whereof ( from our own ground ) we may not ( sayth he ) be ioyned with . The sinns he reckneth 6. First , that woefull entrance before named . I answer , that Mr Bern. entred into this reason with vntruth , and continued in it with begging the question , as before is shewed . So that this his obiection is very wofull a●d the man deser●eth rather to be pitied then answered in his i●le 〈◊〉 made without proof . THe second is a hie degree of vnthankfulnes both to God that begat vs●ly , ●is word , and to our mother the church of Engl. that bar● vs. I answer , 〈◊〉 thank God for that knowledge of him wh●ch we atteyned vnto in the Church of England , and are thankfull also ( as is meet ) to all the instruments which God hath vsed to bring vs vnto knowledge : but now when God hath shewed vs a further truth , ( as what ch●l●e of his , seeth not more dayly , ) we should shew great vnthankf●lnes if we would not walk in it , much more if we should blaspheme and persecute it , as Mr. Bern. and many of his fellow Priests doe , strugling against the light that shineth vpon them ; A papist may haue occasion of thankfulnes vnto G●d a●d men , for the knowledge of God and Christ which he hath get in th● Ro●ish church , farr abo●e that which he could haue had among Pagans : yet if vpon sight of the errors in Popery , he forsake that false church and ioyne to some other true , no man can without vngodlynes , condemne him of vnthankfulnes . The Papists heretofore haue vsed such reasons as these aga●nst the Protestants ; now they , for want of better apply them a●●inst vs. T●e third sinne imputed to vs is , that we are full of spirituall vnchariblenes First toward th●m that will not goe our way , nor be inclinable to vs whome ( he sayth ) we deeply censure and deadly condemn . First , this also is an old popish cauill , vsed often against the Protesta●ts . One a telleth them , they deserue the punishments of Parricides , for scoffing , taunting , contemning and reviling their forefathers . 2. Our vncharitablenes , ( if such it be ) is this , that we pray for and wish vnto all , as to our own sowles , even life and peace we seek to couer a multitude of sinns which then is done , when sinners b are converted from going astray . And for this cause we speak that which we beleeue and know , though the world therfore hate vs. 3 C●nsu●● or condemn those that go not our way we doe not , we know every man shall stand or fall to his own master . It is the sinne onely which we condemn , the sinner we seek to saue , leauing him to the Lord who shall iudge both him and vs at the last day . 4. But how charitable the ministers of England are vnto vs let thei● continuall reproches and vituperies in pulpit and in print shew : and how they censure and condemn vs and all that will not goe their way ; let Mr. Bernards own book speake where by the sentence of his godly ministers , every one is damned , as c cutting himselfe off from Christ , whosoeuer wittingly and continually separateth from the church of Englād , where yet so innumerable abominations and idolatries doe abound . 2. Secondly our vncharitablenes ( as d he sayth ) is a most vngodly desire as ever was heard of , to haue the w●rd vtterly extinguished among them , Aegyptian darknes to come over them , rather then that it should be preachedly such as doe not fauour our course &c. Our desire is , that the Aegyptian darknes which now couereth the land by meanes of the false Prophets that are therein , were done away ; and that the true light of the Gos●ell were risen vnto them . We are sory to see the prophets ( which haue night for a vision and darknes for a divination , as a was threatned of God , ) ●o to deceiue the people , by preaching lyes in the name of the Lord , when he neuer sent them Christ hath no need of such falsers to help up h●s k●ngdome he hath wayes and meanes yenough , by his own ordināce & min●stery to build vp his ●hurch , though Antichrists clergie be sent back to the bottomles pit from whence b they came . We know men gather not c grapes of thornes nor figs of thistles . Lamentable experience these many yeres , sheweth what hurt and misery commeth by this false hierarchy and priesthood , which vpholds idolatry , profanenes , and humane traditions ; pleads for sinne , and against the truth ; to the destruction of mens sowles . We wish people therfore to beware of false prophets , though they come in sheeps clothing ; and to seek the Lord by his own ministery , not by Ant christs : for the theefe commeth not d but to steal , to kill and to d●stroy . Let them see by the lamps of God in his own Sanctuary and Candlestick , and walke in the light of Ierusalem his church , which e hath the glory of God arisen vpon it leauing Vr of the Chaldees , and walking no long●r in the light of the fire and sparks that men haue kindled to themselues least f they lie down in sorow . 3. The last poynt of our vncharital lenes , wh●ch M. Bern. g sayth is the highest degree of all , is that we are sorry and en●ious that the good things of God doe prosper with them . &c. That the good things of God doe prosper with them , and the truth preuail manger all opposition ; we haue cause to reioyce for , and doe reioyce , Yea and we doubt not , but the enuious writings and dealings of Mr. Bern and his fellowes , against the gospell , God will turne to the furtherance of the same ; and the generation h of the righteous shal be blessed which the wicked i shal see and fret and gnash their teeth and pine away ; when their desire shall perish . But what are the good things Mr. Bern. meaneth ? Not the truth of God indeed , for that he blasphemeth and writeth against as Schisme and Brownisme . Nor the reformists cause , called Puritanisme ; for that prospereth not , as all men see , but decreaseth dayly . The Prelates are the men that prevayl , for a wh●le ; their canons are confirmed , their ceremonies flourish , and their hornes are exalted . Whether M , Bern , himselfe ( who wrote not l●ng since a book against them , which also he was willing a gentleman should haue printed in his own name , that M , Bern. might haue slept in a wh●le 〈◊〉 whither himselfe I say , and his fellow Reformists who are disa●oynt●d of their hope , be not sorry for this prosperitie , let themselues say . As for vt we haue learned * not to fret or en●y when we see the wicked flourish ; for they shall so●n be cut down as grasse , and wither as the green herb . Sory we are indeed for their lamentable estate and desire that they may find mercy , at the hands of the Lord. Our fo●rth kind of sinne , he sayth is , our abusing of the werd , misaleging and 〈◊〉 it , &c. This was the third of his probabilities before ‡ answered , and is here for a shew mustred agayn among our sinns ; but nakedly and without all proof : I leaue it therefo●e to the reproof of God ; and to the godly iudgements of all that shall read our writings and allegations of the scriptures . The 5. sinne is our wilfull persisting in our schisme . This is agayn to beg the question , first let it appear to be schisme that we are in , let the reasons a●d grounds of our separation be orderly dealt in , and soundly convinced by Gods word : then if we yeild not , let vs be holden wilfull . Otherweise , to persist in wel doing is good And as easily do the Papists cal Protestants schismaticks , as they vs. Whether M Bernard with all the helps that he hath had from other men , hath conuinced vs of schisme , let the godly judge . If reproching of vs , and idle excursions into by matters , be a conuiction ; doubtle●●e he hath done it better then any before him . The 6. syn , is our rayling and s●●ffing , and ( as he sayth ) Henry Barrowes blasphemies , who hath ●gr●giously abused all their holyest exercises of religion , &c. I answer , if such sinne be in any of vs , it is even by our selues condemned ; and ●f by humane infirmity any haue been ouertaken with vnseasoned speeches , we desire the Christian reader to bear with and pardon it in vs , as himselfe would haue pardon of God The like hath Mr. Barr●● earnestly intreated in his Preface to his Discouery , as the reader may see ; so farr was he from delighting in such wayes . Secondly I answer ( howsoeuer I will not justify all the words of another man , nor yet mine own , for in many things we sinne all ; ) that many of the th●ngs which this man counteth raylings , scoffs and blasphemies , are no other speaches them the hol● Ghost hath vsed before vs in the scriptures , and appl●ed to like persons ; and seemed as harsh to men of those times , as these doe to men now . Thirdly it is l●kely that some be rather the printers fault ( vnlesse Mr. Bernard hath forged them himselfe ) , then Mr Barrowes . Fourthly the Reformists themselus , amongst whome Mr Bern. sometimes seemed one , haue uttered as hard speeches against the Prelate● & other corruptions of their own church ; though now like time seruers they gloze with their reuerend Fathers ; as this man maketh the first of Mr Barrowes raylings scoffs and blasphemies to be his caling the Bishops ” Antichristian . But how many volum●s haue themselues heretofore written of this argument ? And who amongst vs hath euer dealt as did Mar●in Marprelate among themselues ? Finally Mr. Barrow did sharply in 〈…〉 against the reforming preachers , as being the greatest deceiuers of the people , vnder shew of holines . This maketh them a●ayn so e●er agai●st him ; but whither he spake not right of them , may in part be seen already , & time will shew more ; they can no longer halt as hitherto they haue ; but eyther they must rec●ncile them to th●ir Fath●rs , or quite forsake them : and a ble●sed work of God it is , that the most dangerous seducers should thus first be discou●●●d . THe third and last sort of reasons which M. Bern. * vseth against vs , is , Our errors , and ( as he sayth ) the matter of our s●hisme . The errors which he reckneth vp , and vndertaketh to confute ar● ten . The first of them is that we hold the constitution of their church to be a false constitution . To this he sayth , 1. That we cannot proue this simply by any playn doc●rine of scripture &c. 2. That it is against the euidence of the scriptures , which maketh the word , ( Mat. 28.19 . Mar 16 15. 2 Cor. 5.19 . & . 11 2. Iob , 23.23.24 . Act. 2.14.37.38 . & 16.32.33 . ) the externall profe●sion Act. 8.12.37.38 . ) and Sacraments ( Mat. 28 , 19. 1 Cor. 10.16 . ) the visible and true constitution of a company so gathered and kn●t together ; and so was theirs constituted : as that book of ( Mr. Ber. ) sheweth ; and as in another ere long shal be plainly manifested &c. First Mr Ber. setteth down barely this as our position and doctrine , not name●ng place or bo●k where it is written , nor the proofs that we make of it , but perem●torily sayth we cannot proue it . Whereas it hath in ‡ many books by many playn doctrines of scripture been euidently proued , so as Mr Bern. and all his fellow priests could neuer yet , make a playn and direct answer And if when book is writen after booke , no refutation be made , but a bare deneyall , as here M. Bern. sayth we cannot proue it , I say the ministers of Engl. may so turne away any thing ; but with what credit or conscience , the wise will judge . Secondly , for M. Bernards reason , it selfe wanteth a good constitution , being to confu●edly set down , as a man knowes not what he makes the constitution of a church ; or how he would conclude that their church is constituted aright . He pretends the word to be the Constitution of a church ; whereas the scriptures that he quoteth , and reason it selfe might teach him , that the word is the instrument or meanes of Constituting , & conseruing the church constituted ; so also be the sacraments . But as the constitution of a common wealth or of a city is a gathering and vniting of people togither into a ciuill polity : so the Constitution of the common wealth of Israel , ( as the church is ” called ) and of the city of God the new Ierusalem , is a gathering and vniting of people into a diuiue politie : the form of which polity is Order , as the heathens acknowledged , calling polity , † an order of a city : which Order is requisite in all actions and administrations of the church as the Apostle * sheweth , and specially specially in the constitution thereof : so that next vnto faith in God , it ●s to be esteemed most necessary for all holy societies Wherefore Pa●l rejoyced for these two things in the Church at Col●ss● , * euen their order , & their stedfast faith in Christ. Now whereas to the constit●tiō of a ch●rch there belong ● a people , as the matt●r whereof , and 2 a calling , gathering and vniting togither , as the form whereof the church consisteth . in both these the Constitution of the Church of Engl. hath ( in sundry treatises ) been ●roued false . For with them all sorts of profane worldly and wicked ●ersons , are receiued as the matter whereof the church is builded , contrary to the ●layn and manifest doctrine of the scriptures . Leu. 20.24 1 Kin 8 53. Act. 2.40 , and 19.8 ● Iohn . 17.16 . 2 Cor. 6.14 , ●7 , 18. The form and order of their v●iting is als● strange ; for these profane people , euen all persons in a fam●ly , an● all families in a parish , are vnited into one parish church , as it is called ; not voluntarily , ●as ought to be ‡ in the true ch●rch , but by constreynt , not by any due profe●sion of repentance from ●ead work● and faith in God ; but by the priests readin● a Confession absolution , and such like popish st●ff as is to be seen in their seruice book , not vnder the guidance of Chr●sts officers , but of a Parson , Vicar , Curate or other like creature of the Bishops , who in many places can but read English vnto them . And this with the other Par●shes of the Dioce●●e so gathered also , are vnited into one See or D●oces●●● church vnder a Lord Bishop and his Co●rtiers , and all the Dioces into two Pro●inciall churches , the Prouinciall , into one nationall church , called the Church of England , ouer all which there is a most reuerend Father and spirituall Lord , Archbushop , Primate , and Metropolitan : vnder whome al Bishops and Priests of the land are subiect ; and all people and parishes in the land bound to obey the dead canons and decrees , which he the Ach Lord with his brethren of the gouerning clergie , agree of in their repre●atiue church in the Conuocation howse , if once the Ciuill Magistrate giue life vnto them . This forme and order of a church is not to be found in Chr●sts Testament ; but receiued it is from the church of Rome by heritage or succession ; as the Papists boast of ( to the dishonour of Protestants ) when they say ; ” A religion &c. that distinguished the multitude into , p●rishes ●roportiōed ●he tithes , ann●xed th● Glebeland , fon̄ded the Bishopricks , ●mitted the Dioceses &c , So , as the mother is the daughter is , false in her c●stitutiō ; though in the doctrin which she profeseth she is far better & purer thē that whoremother of Rome . The discussing of thes things . as Mr Bern. refereth to other places & books , so also do I ; seing in thi● place ●e hath brought nothing of weight to proue his cōstitutiō . For the script●re that he alegeth , & the 3. things that he colecteth from thē ; do make against his pur●ose . The word is not by Christs m●nistery ri●htly ; reached & applyed to the people , but vnsufferabley abused to the maintenance or the confusion and idolatries that are among them : the sacraments are highly profa●ed and prostituted to the most vngodly and thir seed , and popishly administred , and the externall profession which the people , make is by constreynt , and therefore nought worth : besides it is corrupt and idolatrous , being a mixed profession , partly of the truth of God , & partly of their own inuentions , as appeareth by their Communion book Canons , and the like . Our second error should be , that we hold their Constitution a real idol , and so them idolaters . To confute this , Mr Ber. sayth that he h●th perused in any scriptures , and can see none that take an idol or idolaters in any such s●nse ; aga●n , that Marlorat mentioneth 47. idols , and not one of them in ●he s●nse . Whether this article be of Mr Bernards own forgin● , or where he hath had it , I cannot tell ; his reader must take all of his cred● , for he lets not down his author . As for his confutation hereof , it is very slender , that beca●se he seeth it not , or Ma●lorat nameth it not , therefore it is no idol . For it is no sure position that Mr Bernard seeth all that ●he scriptures ; teach ; and both he and Marlorat may as soon number the hayres of their heads , a● all the idols that are in the world . Wel therefore yet may ●t be a real idol , for o●ght that this man hath sayd to saue it . And if it be a false constit●tion ( as before is pro●ed ) set vp in stead of a true , what is it better then a very idol . In the end he t●rneth and renteth vs for making o●r own constitution ( as he sayth ) an idol or goddesse ; and feighneth that we may say , Great is the Goddesse Constitution ; great is Diana of the B●●●nists B●t seing this is but a re●roch of a scorner , and the reproch reacheth vnto Christ himselfe who hath appoynted the frame order and constitution of h●s own ch●rch , which we haue laboured for I leaue him for this calumniation , vnto his rebuke , who will teach him one day no more to blaspheme . And whether ( may we think ) tendeth the inuectiue of this vayn man , who thus skoffeth at the Constitution of Christs church , but to bring in a mere ataxie or conf●sion , worse then was at Babels tower-building : for take away the orderly framing and constituting of a church , and there will be but a Tohu , ( as the scripture * speaketh , ) a rude indigest heap or confute Chaos , more beseeming the wild beasts of the wood , then any humane , much les●e diuine pol●ty . That such as are not of a particular constituted church , ( to weet such a one as ours is , ) are no subiects of Christs kingdome . Neyther is this position set downe in our words ; ( to my knowledge ; ) neyther doth Mr B●rnard take away , but confirme rather the thing that we hold ; for he ‡ granteth that they offend God , which may and doe not ordinarily , ( hauing 〈◊〉 canes offred ) liue in a church rightly constituted ; and we grant that many of Christs subiects , for want of meanes , doe not liue in a true constituted church , If therefore he were not a caviller , he would not haue reckned this among our errors . That all nor in our way , are without : and we apply against them ( in Engl. ) 1 Cor. 5 , 12 , Eph. 2 , 12. The first part of this position , you must impu●e to Mr Bernards charity , who w●ll needs frame our assertions for vs , because he thinkes we cannot speake for our selues ; we might leaue it vnto him to frame an answer also . But if he would let vs tel , what we hold , it is , that all not in the way ●f Ch●ist , are without : and if this be an error , let him make the most of it . The applying of those scriptures against them , he must be content to bear , til he or his brethren can proue thēselues a true church ; for though there b● great differences of peoples professing religion , some with more truth , ●ome with lesse ; yet all not w●thin Christs church , are without , as th● A●ostle speaketh . Mr Bernards exception , that those places are meant of s●ch as neuer professed Christ at all ; is childish : why doth he not except a●a●n●t the holy Ghost himselfe , who * ap●lieth against the false Christ●ans of the R●mish Church , words and s●eaches meant first of heathen Babylon , that profe●●ed not God or Christ at all . His boasting of the word , sacraments , effects and deliuerances ; are before in this traatise taken away . And Mr Bernards proofs , are but a begging of the question , which he blameth in other● , as before is obs●rued . That onely Sayncts , that is , a people forsaking all known sinne , of which they m●y be conuinced , doing all the known will of God , increasing and abiding euer thr●● , are the onely matter of a visi●le church . Th●s Position I de●ey , and disclaym also the errors which he gathereth from ●t : and therefore will spend no time in answering it ; but refer Mr Ben to them that haue so spoken or writen , if any be . This we hold ( 〈◊〉 let vs se what Mr Bernard can say against it , ) that ‡ Saincts by calling are the onely mater of a true visible church . Yet withall we hold , that ●any be calle● , † but few chosen . That ●he power of Christ , that is , authority to preach , to administer the sacram●●●s , and to exercise the censures of the Church , belongeth to the whole Ch●rch , yea to euery one of them . And not the principall members thereof . This opinion , he calleth the A , b , c , of Brownisme : but he may put it if he please in the Criss-crosse rew of Bernardisme ; he himselfe being the first that I euer heard to vtter such a position . This point he much vrgeth and ●relleth vs with ; he mentoned it in his For●speech to the Reader , thus , Th● Pa●ist sayth , Christs ruling power is in the Pope ; nay , sayth the Protestant . i● is in the ecclestasticall gouernours , Bishops , may sayth the Puritan , it is in the Presbyterte ; nay , sayth the Brownist , it is in the body of the Congregation , the multitude , called the Church . And in this beginneth Brown●sme . &c. Here first I require of Mr Bern. that he produce his autors , and shew the book , or writing , where we haue auouched such things . He tells his reader of all the errors that he ch●rgeth vs with , that ” we hold & cannot deny them , being already auouched vnder our hands : and that he will not wrong vs in setting them down , &c. Yet durst he not ( as every honest writer writer in su●h controuersies vse to doe ; an● if he doe not in his next , the reader may est●em of his truth and honesty as it is . Next , for the poynt it selfe , I answer , Christs ruling power , which the Papists say is in the Pope ; we say not ( as this man calumniateth vs ) that it is in the body of the Congregation , the multitude , but in Christ himselfe ; and that the Pope is Antichrist , not for taking into his hands the power of the mul●itude , but of Chr●st , to rule and gouern the church as Head of the same . Agayn , Christs ruling power , which the Protestants say is in the Bishops the Prelates , we doe not say it is in the multitude ; but in Christ himselfe : for he onely is * Lord of the Church , he onely is ‡ Archbishop or Chief pastor ; he only walketh among the seuen gol●en Candlesticks , as Ouerseer of the seuen ch●rches ; ruling them by his lawes can●ns and decrees . Whereas the Bishops of England are s●irituall Lords , and one is Arch●ishop and Primate over all : they rule many ch●rches and min●sters , mak● new canons and decrees in their Conuocati●n howse ; prescr●be formes and words of prayer , and of preaching , by their leiturgie and homilies , and other like spirituall jurisdiction , apperteyn●ng to Chr●st alone , thus are they very Antichr●sts ; and to ●ther with their exorbitant usurped . power , ought vtterly to be abolished out of all Chri●t●an churches . Neyther , that ruling power of Christ , which the P●ritans ( whereby I supp●se , Mr Bern. meaneth the Christian reforme● churches in other coūtries , ) say is in the Presbitery ; doe we say , is in the multitude for we acknowledge Christ to haue ordeyned a * Presbit●ry ; or Eldership , and that in ‡ every church , for ” to teach and rule them by his own word and lawes , vnto whome all the multitude , the members . the Sain●ts ought to † obey and submit themsel●es , as the scriptures teach And for the particular branches of this 6. Error that Mr Bernard chargeth vs with , That the power of Christ , that is , authority to pr●ach , belongeth to the whole church , ye● to every one of them , &c. we deny it , a● he setts it do●n , and for the help of t●e reader whome he abuseth , will distinctly set down our opinion . The word of God , is giuen to all and every member of the Church to read , and exercise priuately : but publickly in the Church there is a double vse , 1 in prophesie , and 2 in office , as the Apostle * distinguisheth . The office of teaching is layd vpon some few chosen & ordeyned therevnto Into this office may no man intrude , or vsurp it , without a lawfull calling . This we haue long since published , as a pa●t of our faith Confess , Art. 19.20.21 . Teaching in way of prophesie , ( which the Apostle treateth of 1 Cor , 14 ) is absolutely vs lawfull ‡ for all women in th● church , but men , so many as haue the gift and ability from God , may all pro●hesie one by one , of which poynt see our Con●●ss Art 34. And this is that we hold concerning preaching , which whether it be an error and Mr Bern. hath so proued it , let the indifferent reader judge . For the second poynt , authority to administer the sacraments , that it sho●ld belong to euery one of th● church ; we vtterly deney ; and maruell at Mr Bernards vnconscionable dealing with vs , for in o●r Confession he co●ld not but see , ( vnlesse he winked , ) this plainely expressed , * no sacraments to be administred vntill the Pastors or Teachers be chosen and ordeyned int●●heir office . The third and last , that euery one hath authority to execute the censures of the church we also deny ; but hold , that euery member hath authority to ‡ reb●ke h●s brother for sinne , and if he repent to forgiue him , if not , to take w●tne●●es ; if yet he repent not , to tel it ” to the church , which church hath Christs † power to iudge all within the same , and cast out from among them all wicked men : Now that every one hath not this power , nor yet any member or members apart , we haue plainly signified in our Con●●ssi●n , Art. 24. If this be an error in Mr Bernards account , let him by the scriptures confute it , not onely in vs but in a principall minister of his own ch●rch D , F●lk , who hath written * that the keyes of the kingdome of h●auen whatsoeuer they are ; be committed to the whol church , and not to one p●●sō only , as C●●rian , Augustine , Chrysostome , Ierome , and al the ancient Doctors agrea●ly o●ly to the scriptures doe confesse . So then for popular gouernment , ( which Mr Bern. would traduce vs by , ) we hold it not , we approue it not , for if the multitude gouern , then who shal be gouerned ? Christian liberty ( which ‡ all haue ) is one thing , the raynes of gouernment ( which ” some haue ) is another thing . Now how farr t●e peoples right and liberty and benefit thereby eytendeth , would require a larged scourse to shew , which is not my purpose here . It is ye no●gh to mainfest the iniquity of this aduersary who would father such err●rs on vs , dealing like his predecessors the Papists , who in this weise re●roched the Protestants , as labouring † to bring all things vnder the rule of the rash vnconstant people and vnlearned multitude ; and to make the church * democraticall and popular , because every one of the people by his priuate spirit , is supreme iudge and head in matters of religion . Our different judgement and practise from the church of Engl. wher all ●y men as they call them , are forbidden all speaking or expounding of the word in the publik assemblies , and where a Bishop , Chancellor , or Commissary , hath power to excommunicate by a Latin writ &c. Our difference also and dislike of the Presbyteries practise , whereby people are excluded , and depriued of a great part of their Christian liberty and benefit thereby , is in other books ‡ largely treated of , with scriptures & reasons many , which M , Bern. neyther orderly handleth , nor soundly confuteth , as the wise reader may see ; but ignorantly and confusedly shuffleth them ouer ; running into by matters , and vniust calumniations . I will end therefore with the words of one of his fellow ministers , who touching this poynt of Church gouernment writeth much more soundly then by Mr. Bern. in his blindenes , hath done , Mr Iacob I mean , which sayth , a It is childish , and without all wit , to cry out aganst vs ●us our adue●saries doe ▪ Popularity , Anarchie &c. for our so ▪ wel grounded and so approued an assertion . That the sinne of one man publ●ckly and obstinately stood in , b●ing not reformed nor the offender cast out , ●oth s● p●llute the whole congregation , that none may commu●●cate with h● same in any of the holy ●hings of God , ( though it be a church r●ghtly con●●ituted , till the party be excommun●cated . I deney agayn this to be eyther our iudgement or practise Mr. Bern. sayth the form●r position is the ground of this ; and so it seemeth , he c●lumniating vs in the for●er , thou●ht he might doe likeweise in this . We professe and haue long since publ●shed , that b none is to separate for f●●lts & corru●tiōs , which may & so long as the Church cōsist●th of m●rtall men will fall out and aris● among them ; but by due order to s●●k r●dresse th●reof Now that euery Chr●stian not onely may b● tought to rebuke his neighbour for sinne , we ha●e playn lawes both ●n the old Testament and the new Leuit. 19.17 . Luk. 17.3 . That sinners not repenting , are after the second admonition to be signified vnto the church , is also Christs ordinance , Mat. 18 , 15.17 . But what ●f ●he church will not cast him out ? I answer ; Synns are eyther con●rouertible or manifest . If controuertible and d●ubtf●ll ; men ought c to bear one with anothers different judgement ; if they doe not , but , any for this make a breach or separation , d they syn . But if the sinne be manifest , as for example a man is conuict of adultery , blasphemy , theft or the like : and the church will not rebuke him nor cast him out , but suffer him obstinate and impenitent in his wickednes ; and plead for him aga●nst such us call vpon them for iudgem●nt : then are all such abettors of the wicked , sinners themselues ; and that in a high degree , as th' Apostle noteth Rom. 1 31 the whole lump is leuened , 1 Cor. 5 , 1 , 6. &c. and now not that one mans sinne , but the sinne of them all , is that which polluteth them : for they fauour and iustify a wicked man more then God ; therefore e woe is vnto them , and Solomon sayth , He that sayth to the wicked , thou art righteous him shall the people curse , and the multitude shall abhorr him . Prou , 24 24 If M , Bern think the sinne is the lesse , because a church maynteyns it ; he is much deceiued ; evill , the more common it is ▪ the worse ●t is ; because God is more dishonoured , and mens sowles more endangered . If he think men should regard and reuerence the church in this case ▪ the law teacheth every man not to follow f the many ( or , the mighty ) to doe euill , nor agree in a controuersie to decline after many , and ouerthrow ( the right . ) The ●round of all this is playn in Gods law , if any one of the people sinned against any of the commandements of the Lord , g and one shewed him his sinne which he had committed , he was to bring his sacrifice , a testification of his repentance . If a ruler sinned , or the high i priest himselfe , they were to doe likewise . If the whole k Congregation sinned , the like law was for them : God respected no persons ; but if they that sinned were greater or moe in number , they were so farr from being sauoured , as they had the greater sacrifice inioyned them , a priuate man offred a a shee-goat , a ruler a b hee-goat , the high Priest , and the Congregation , a c yong b●llock . These lawes were giuen to all sorts of persons , for all manner sinns‘ and the law was agayn repeated and stablished from that day forward throughout their generations , Num. 15.22.23 . &c. But if any man despised this law , and sinned with a high hand , the same blasphemed the Lord , and was to be cut off from among his peo●le . Num. 15.30.31 Now further , that the whol congregation taking Part with wicked men in syn , after due admonition , are all defiled and subiect to like iudgement , we haue a playn example in the whole Tribe of Beniamin , d where in Gibe●h one of their towns filthines was committed , the Tribe was called vpon to deliuer e th●se wicked men to death , that evill might be put away from Israel , ●●t when they would not deliuer them , all the other tribes warred against that tr●be , and almost rooted out every man of the same . Likeweise the tr●bes of Israel in an other case , sayd to some of their brethren , f seeing ye rebel to day against the Lord ; euen tomorrow he wil be wroth with all the Congregation of Israel . Did not Achan sinne , &c. and wrath fell on all the congregation of Israel and this man alone perished not in his wickednes . What Mr Bern. seeth or how he readeth the scriptures I cannot tel ; but if he knew the contagion of sinne or guilt of the same , he would neuer haue writien as he hath done Now where he pleadeth that men should not for the offender , refreyn the holy things of God , abh●rr the sacrifices &c. We grant it . The holy things are alwayes to be reuerenced , Gods house and sacrifices frequented , when we may without sinne But we deny such an assembly to be Gods church , as with a high hand sinneth , and blasphemeth the Lord. The sacrifice of the wicked is g an abomination . And it cannot be said that any holy thing is lawfully administred in such a society where all agree together to mayntein open iniquity , and doe despise the word of the Lord , calling them to repentance If they doe not thus , we hold it not lawfull to separate from them , nor in any weise at any time , till all holy and orderly meanes be vsed for their reclayming . That euery of their assemblies are false churches . This we hold indeed , being vnderstood of the ordinary cathedrall & parish assemblies of England , which all are by one line . For defense of these churches Mr Bern. refers the reader to an other treatise after , and so doe I to the answer of the same , following . Yet least he should seem ●o say nothing , Mr Ber excepteth 1 That they haue no false head , for , they hold Iesus Christ. I answer , so might Ieroboam haue pleaded for himself & his people , that they had no false head , but h the true God which brought them out of the Land of Aegypt . Yet were they a false church The Papists Papists and Anabaptists at this day , hold and professe Iesus Christ : yet such errors are among them , as Christ in deed is deneyed : the parishes of England professe him also , but such is their estate otherweise , that they haue him not truly for a head , prophet , priest , or king vnto them ; as befor a is proued . But it is yenough for Mr Bernard to affirme without proofe : and correction with him is a b needfuller argument in this case t●ē i●struction For when the Priests li●s preserue not knowledge how should men be answered but by the gaole or gallowes ? 2. The matter ( sayth he ) is not false : and to shew this he noteth a difference between No matter , true matter , and false matter . No matter are th●y which make no profession of Christ at all ; as Iewes , Turks , and Pagans , True ( visible ) matter are all such as openly professe this mayn truth , that Iesus the sonne of Mary is the sonne of God ▪ Christ the Lord , by whome onely & alone they shal be saued . And c false matter is contrary to this true matter . I answer ; this false matter is very rawly set down , for being contrary to the former true , it may imply Iewes , and Turks , whome he made no matter : and then it confoundeth his own distinction . But if he mean that they which professe not Christ rightly and truely , as he setteth downe , are a false matter , then , say I ; ●t will euince the matter of their Churches to be false , seing there is not aright and true profession of Chr●st , made by their parishes ▪ But Mr Ber. leauing out this word rightly & truly , tels vs d they all professe this fayth , as is apparent 1 by the doctrine of their church ( vidz . that in the Harmony of Confessions , ) 2 by the same publickly preached 3 by the same mainteyned by their lawes , writings and blood of holy martyrs . I answer , if all this were granted ▪ yet will it not proue Mr Bernards purpose , for some may write and preach the truth , the Magistrate may establish it by law , and some may seal it with their blood ; and yet not al the nation be a true matter for Christs church , except they also make l●ke profession Which that the parishes of England doe not , the profanenes of the multitudes shew . But least I be thought to speake of envy , let vs hear the testimony of their own ministers and such as were no fauourers of vs at all ▪ as their malicious writings of vs sheweth Mr Nichols esteemed a forward preacher among them ▪ sayth , e We finde by great experience , ( and I haue now fiue and twenty yeres obserued it , ) that in those places where there is not preaching and priuate conferring of the Minister and the people ; the most part haue as litle knowledge of God and of Christ , as Turks and Pagans . To confirme this , he giues vs an example in his own flock For I haue been in a parish sayth he ) of fowr hundred communicants , and maruelling that my preaching was so little regarded , I tooke vpon me to conferre with euery man and woman , before they receiued the communion . & I asked them of Christ , what he was in his person ; what his office ; how firme came into the world ; what punishment for sinne ; what becomes of our bodies being rotten in the graue and lastly whither it were possible for a man to liue so vprightly , that by wel doing he might winn heauen . In all the former questions , I scarse found ten in the hundred to haue any knowledge , but in the last question , scarse one , but did affirme , that a man might be saued ▪ by his own wel doing , and that he trus●ed he did so liue , that by Gods grace he should obt●yn euerlasting life by ser●ing of God and god prayers &c. Now then , this being so , tell me I pr●y y●u ( sayth Mr Ni●hols ▪ first for Ath●isme , whether these be any bettor then A●h●is●s , whi●h know not Christ ? And tell me I pray you Mr Bernard whether th●●● be a ●rue matter , such as Christs church consisteth of ? But you would ●a●● vs beleeue the Bishops and Priests of Engl. are wondrous men ; for i●●hey write books , or preach sermons to the people , their whole Dioceses and Parishes must needs be estemed conuerts and profelytes . Such effect & grace was neuer heard of before , since the world began . More absurd it is to say , that the good lawes of the Magistrate , doe make a profane idolatrous multitude , true professors : but most of all , that because some few were martyrs , therefore they that killed the martyrs , professe Christ truly . If these be not pregnant reasons , then M. Bernards book is little worth . 3. But he proceedeth and sayth , The visible form is not false ; which is the vniting of vs unto God , and one to another uisibly . This he would proue by 3 , reasons 1 because the word is preached and offred to the people ; 2 Because of the peoples open profession of their fayth , vnto the doctrine , God working in them a will to receiue it . 3 because the Lords supper is in vse among them . Sundry scriptures are alleged to shew that thus the primitiue churches were planted and constituted ; all which we grant ; but when he comes to apply b these to themselues ; he barely assumes , that thus is their case ; neyther answering any reason of ours to the contrary , nor shewing any reason of his own , to confirme that which he sayth . And what cause in the world , what church is so bad ; but may thus be pleaded for ? He knowes wel , that we except , ( and the visible estate of that church , their own monuments , records , complaints , &c. doe bear witnes with us , ) that they were planted in this religion and profession by force of the Magistrates law ; that multitudes are profane ; that many thowsands want the preaching of the word ; that they ar al compelled to come to church , be baptised , receiue the communion , and the like ; and what profession the poor ignorant people make , is before manifested . If he would heare more of their profession , and subiection to the word and ministery , Mr. Nichols shewes it thus ; c How little haue they esteemed the godly and learned ministers ! How content they be with simple and ignorant men ! How hardly are they drawn to pay duties which law hath appoynted ! How many quarrels they pick against painfull ministers ! And how little reuerence they giue to any that are faithfull ! How they follow their couetousnes and pleasures ! How they fil al sorts of courts with brawles , foolish and wilfull strifes , and sutes , and demurres in law with murthers , whordomes ▪ dronkennes , and all disorder . Loe this is the commendations of the professant people of the Church of Engl , whome Mr Bernard pleadeth for . As for their constitution and vniting together into parishes ▪ dioceses , pro●inces , and at last in to one nationall church with an Archbishop & his high court ouer all it is a before shewed to be a R●mis●●●t●o● , and antichristian , n●t iustifiable by the law or testament of Christ. 4. Lastly , the visi●le properties are ( he sayth ) not false ●ut true , namely th●se , 1 Con●inuance in heari●g of the d●ct●ine of Christ receiued , and vsing of th● sacraments and prayer . 2 The hol●ing out of this truth an● 〈◊〉 sacra●ents as 〈◊〉 displ●●ed , against the ene●y ▪ 3 A care for the welfare of all , and euery one for 〈◊〉 and ech for o●her . But all this build●ng is on a s●ndy ground : for their esta●e ( as before is m●nif●sted ▪ be●ng euill : the long●r they continew in it , the worse it is f●r them Cont●nuance to read ●he seruice book , and homilies , to ●rostitute t●e Sacra●ents to the profane , to administer them after a ●opish m●nn●r , by a false m●n●ster● ; these are the banners and ensignes of Antichrist ▪ dis●layed ●n al his a●●emblies ; that poor sowles haue cause to complayn a● in the Psalm , b they haue s●t vp th●i● banners for signes . As for the care of the wel●are of all , &c. which Mr. B●rn . boasteth of : let Mr. Nichols foresayd complaynt of the people on the one hand ▪ and the Bishops , & Preists open neglect & contempt of the people on the other hand , shew what care they haue one of another . For how many sowles are miserably famished by dum , negligent , and non resident priests evill beasts and slow bellies . How many preachers are put out for not subscrib●ng and using the ceremonies , &c. These , that I g●ue no other instances , shew what care there is of mens sowless am●●● them ; which he that commendeth , shewes himselfe carelesse what he speakes or writes . OVr 9. error is , that we say , Al th●●r minist●rs are false ministers . Against this Mr Bernard allegeth for the truth of their ministery , that they are sent of Christ according to his ordinance in his church , as is manifested by th● , th●t th●y are quall●fi●d with good gifts , they are called by the church , & such also as d●e diligently , and faithfully preach , and so preach Christ as many th●reby doeth ar and bel●eue , euen confirming their calling by the blessed successe and eff●ct of th●i● lab●urs . Rom. 10.14.15 . 1 Cor. 9.2 . First , if Mr Bernard would indeed haue refuted our error , if such it be he shoul● haue answered the reasons which in many writings we haue br●ught a●●inst the●r min●stery B●t he found that , all too heauie . The● for the reasons that ●●ms●lfe alleg●th , they are naked and without all co●firm●ti●n ; such as Pa●ist● , Anabaptists or any other Antichristians might ●llege for the●sel●es F●r , a Papist wil ●oast as wel as he , that their Priests are qu●lifi●● wi●h go●d gifts , called , by the church , doe deligently an● faithfully pre●ch , so as 〈…〉 h●●r an● beleeue . B●t I will answer ech of ●is part●c●l●r● Their q●alificatiō is wi●h Good g●fts , is no proffe of a lawful minist●ry ; seing ● many priuate men ha●e as good gifts as they ; ●vsurpers and intr●der● may al●o haue as excellent gifts , as lawfull officers : ● Iesuites , S●mm●ries and ther instuments of Satan , are knowen to be as learned and well furnished with gifts , as Mr Bern. and his brethren . 4 Moreouer I deny that the principall ministers of England are qualified or able to execute their office ; the Archbishops , Bishops Arch dea●ons , &c. that haue whole Dioceses and Prouinces vnder their charge cannot possibly performe the duty ▪ of true ministers vnto them . 5 And fi●●lly a number of ignorant Sir Iohns can read their Leiturgie vnto their paris●es ; and haue no other good ministeriall quallity . The second thing , their calling by the church ; which afterward he expl●yneth th●s ; a bei●g examined , found fi● , and so are elect and ordeyned ; this 〈…〉 vpon the sands ; for the church of England not being a true ch●rch of G●d , as is before manifested , hath no power from God to call and ●rdeyn mi●isters ▪ But besi●es this , I would fayn learne of Mr Bern. what Ch●●ch it is that examined , elected , and ordeyned his Lords grace of Canterb●●y , for Ar●hb●shop● then whether the same or some other ch●rch examined elected and ordeyned the Diocesan Bishops , the Deans the Archdeacons , and the rest of that Lordly priesthood , then what church ordeyned the parish Priests , and Deacons . These things if he dare vndertake to deal in , and bring to the triall : will be found more agreable to the Canons of the Pope , then to the testament of Christ. Their office it selfe , Mr Bern. balketh quite , and tels vs not what functions this pompous clergie haue to execute , yet is it most needfull to be known , for how els shall men discerne their administration ? To begin● therefore with his Arch Lord of Cant. the Angel of the church of Engl. what office ●ath ●e to execute , of a Pastor ; or of a Pope ? If he be Pastor of this ●●●rch , what be the inferior Bishops ; pety Pastors , or Pety popes ? what offices 〈◊〉 the Suffragans , Chancell●rs , deanes , Archdeacons Commiss●●●s , ●ffi●ials , D●ctors Proctors , and the residew of that army ? what offices haue the Preb●ndaries , Canons , P●ti●anons , Chanters , Subchanters , and other like b●rds of the cloister ? what offices haue the Bishops bay lifts the Priests , the half priests or Deacons , the Parsons , and Vicars , the Churchwardens , Clerks , & Sextius ? Mr Bern. affirmeth that b the Lord onely ordeyneth offi●●s in his church 1 Cor. 12. and that the church it selfe cannot doe this , but Iesus Christ both Lord and King. Now seing he hath ouerskipped in this book , al the stately offices that are in his church : let him in his next shew ( if he can ) the offices that Christ in his testament hath appoynted this troup of horsemen and charrets vnto . Now for their administration , he telleth c vs , they preach the true doctrine or Christ , administer the sacraments , performe their office faithfully , and liue c●ns●i●nably , and Christ doth assist such graciously in conuerting soules , and ●h● pe●ple doe approue of them . Fayr words , and such as it seemeth Mr Bern. useth to feeed his flock with : but if one deny that thus it is , he must tary for proof , till an other treatise come forth ; it was yenough in this , to affirme it so to be ; and for his Lords grace to confirme it . Wel , to let passe the multitude of compl●ints and testimonies to the contrary in their own books , let him shew how it is possible for the Archbishop of the church of Engl. or the inferior Bishops , to preach and performe their office faithfully , vnto so many hundreds of parishes , & thowsands of people , as are vnder their charge . Let the infinite number of soules that are famished vnder them speake , how often their Chief-shepheard of Cant haue fed them with the word and sacraments , ( vnlesse perhaps he hath blessed some of their youthes with the Sacrament of Confirmation ; ) how many of their soules he hath conuerted , yea let them say whether euer he saw their face● ? As for the Bishops Deputies the paris●h priests , many of them are dumb by nature , and cannot preach ; many are made dumb by their spirituall Lords power , and silenced for disobed●ence ; so preaching wexeth geazon , and people perish for want of Instruction . In the mean tyme , this painful Clergie feedeth the Lay weekly , with their mattings , Euensong , and Homilies ; and sometimes in a year with sermon , and reading the Bishops canons . They discipline their notorious sinners , with reading curses and Comminations out of the pulpit , till the Lent penance ( which is much to be wished ) be restored agayn : they solemnize the holy dayes of Angels and of Saincts ; they giue ech man the sacrament at Easter deuoutly vpon his knees , they baptise with water , and a signe of the crosse in the a●er ; they wed their parishioners with a ring , & teach the man to worship his wife , in the name of the Father and of the Son & of the holy Ghost : they church the women after childbirth : they visi● the sick , and absolue him from all his sinns , and howsel him with a Communion : and last of all , they bury the dead , in sure and certayn hope of resurrection to eternall life . And this is yenough for priests to doe in the country parishes ; but in the Cathedrall churches , where Bishops , Deanes ; and other great Doctors do reside ; there the Queriste●s and Organ-pipes , make sweeter melody . Mr. Bern. confesseth a that the Lord onely prescribes the duties to be done in euery distinct ●ffice : now he that knowes not these dutiess to belong to Christs ministers , or these works to be a faythfull performance of ministeriall office , let him read Mr Bernards book , for there b he hath quoted many scriptures , the end of all which is to raise c an euident proof of the truth of their ministery and administration ; as if one should cite the second commandement , for to vphold idolatrie . The effects of their administration , in conuerting sowles , is but a vayne boast , as their idolatrous estate , with the lamentable ignorance and profanenes of the people every where sheweth The reasons brought by others ( for Mr Bern bringeth none , ) to perswade such effects , are before in this d treatise answered .. It maketh also against the estate of this church and ministery ; for if these preachers haue conuerted and wrought faith in some of their hearers , then it followeth that before that conuersion they were infidels , yet were they of the church and had this ministery set ouer them , as all men know . Which how it can stand with the r●les of Gods word , hath neuer yet bene shewed . The example which Mr Bern. allegeth of th' Apostle 1 Cor , 9.1.2 . helpeth him nothing : For Apostles were sent to conuert heathens , but Pastors are set for to b feed conuerted Christians . And the Priests of England challenge to be Pastors , I ween , and not Apostles . Agayn the work and seal of Pauls Apostleship was seen in Corinth , by c separating the beleeuers from infidels ; and g●ther●ng the d Saints onely into the communion of the church , vnder the officers e gi●en of Christ but in England the vnb●leeuers and wicked , were receiued and are reteyned in the church . So that Mr. Bern. is but a ●alse Apostle ( as his work shewes ) if he be any at all . But in the end he tels vs f we forget to iustifie the lawfulnes of our own ministers , who are made ●i●ist●rs ●y s●ch as are no ministers , contrary to the constant practise of the church of God , from the dayes of Adam hitherto . &c. In which dispute , Mr. Bern. teacheth playn apostasie from the Gospell unto Poperie , from wh●ch he deriueth the min●stery of his church of Engl. For seing all the examples that he allegeth from scriptures , are of Diuine persons and approued ministers of the true church ; and comming g to his church of England , he fetcheth her ministery out of the Popish church and from the Prelates thereof , it cannot be ( if his last words agree with his first ) but the po●ish church is a true church , and their prelates true ministers . Otherweise h●s reasoning is absurd , to say , God ordeyned Adam , Moses odeyned Aaron ; Christ ordeyned the Apostles ; the Apostles ordeyned orther m●nisters in churches : therefore Antichrist of Rome , his synago●ue of Satan , & h●s eldest son●es the Prelates , must or may ordeyn mini●ters in the church of Christ. If this be a good consequence let al men iudge : if ●●●s it be not , then Mr. Bern. holdeth the popish church , and the ●opish ministers true ministers ; and so himselfe and his church of England must needs be schismatiks for leauing that church of Rome . When he hath cleared himselfe of this his absurd doctrine , then ( if he cannot see that the church of Christ hath power to ordeyn her own ministers ) it shal be shewed h●m by the scriptures , T●ll then , what should we do folowing of a wauering reed , whome we cannot tell by his writing , whether he be Papist or Protestant . And that the reader may see into what an intricate Labyr●nth the ministers of England haue brought themselues , about this matter of their ministery , by writing as they haue do● both of the Papists and of us : I will set down a Papist argument against them : from which how handsomely they can defend themselues , I would fayn see . There came out , in anno 1602 a book called A detection of diuers notable vntruthes &c. wherein the author hauing to deal wit Mr S●●cliff , who as ( he sayth ) had reasoned thus , h The true church is a societie of faithfull people vnder lawfull Pastors &c But the Church of Rome hath long wanted true Pastors and Bishops ; for the Romish Bishops haue no authority ●r missiō but frō the Pope , to whome also they swear feally : but he hath no authority to send them or ordeyn them , ●eing himselfe no Bishop , &c. This argumēt of Mr Sutcliffs the Papist i retorteth v●ō thē thus . The true church of Christ hath alwayes true Pastors and Bishops : but the English Congregation wanteth true Priests and Bishops : Therefore the English congreagation 〈◊〉 not the true church of Christ. The fi●st proposition ( sayth the Papist ) he must not deny , being of his own making , &c. The 2 , proposition is apparant according to Mr Sutcliffs diuinity . For most certaine it is , that their first Bishops receiued their orders and consecration from our catholik Bishops , as his brother Bel confesseth , Suruey . pag. 201. And the thing it selfe speaketh : seing when L●ther begun , there was not any protestant Bishop or Priest &c. And if Mr Sut●liffe dare deny that their Bishops were c●ns●cratedl● ours , then let him name who they were that did lay hands vpon Mr Parker the first of Cant. that deriued not their mission authority and consecration from the Bishop of Rome . Certayn it is , th●t ●yther none at all can be named , or els none b●sides : therefore if our Bishops be no Bishops , then doth it follow most euidently , that all the English Bishops , be no Bishops at al , as hauing no other cōsecratiō then from them : And if our English Prelates be no true Bishops , then surely n●yther be they Pri●sts or Minis●ers or Deacons , that be ordeyned by them , and so consequently the congregation of E●g● , by Mr Sutcliffs argumēt , not th● tru church of Christ. This is the Catholi●s argument and plea : which how Mr Bern. or his brethren will wel answer , and stand also to that which they haue written against vs ; I cannot tel . Finally , against that often boasting of the work and effect of the ministery of Engl , I will oppose a testimony of one of their chief mi●isters , yet our professed aduersary , that it cannot be thought he was partial for vs at all . Mr Gifford is the man that thus hath a written . Som● d●e wonder how it should come to passe ; that among vs there should be so many which being borne since the gospell was restored in this land are so zealously addicted unto Popery , which th●y neuer did know . and so utter enemies to the Gospel which they hear . But if they weigh the causes of this deadly mischeef , they will cease wondring at that , and rather wonder that there be no more . For how can it b● so long as there be so many abuses in the ministery , but that many shall stumble and loath the Gospell . For from thence as it is manifest , the cheife cause of this euill doth spring . True it is that our ministery doth fight against them but yet in such sort , that it doth greatly increase them . Seeming and pretending to tread vpon those cockatrise eggs , for to breake them , and so ●o destroy utterly th● viperous generation : when as indeed they sit vpon them , and so hatch the bro●ds of this euill kinde , and bring them forth in great plenty . For behold a number cry out against popery , and proclaym vtter defiance in speach : but their doings are such , that for euery one which they conuert to the g●spel , they cause an hundred to reuolt , to be hardned in their errors , or to fall into flat Atheisme . While many cōtrary to the professiō w●ich they made when they entred , setting aside the care of sowles , not esteeming nor regarding what become of them , studie most how to clime high , and to satisfy their ambitious desire of honour : taking togither liuings couetously and greedily : not caring who feed the flock , so they may ●●me by the fleese , Moreouer the door hath been opened also ●o let into the church 〈…〉 and swarme of such , as are more like the priests of Ieroboam , then minister● of the gospell : not onely unlearned idols , which haue mouthes and speake n●t ; which being weary of their occupations , and couet to liue easily , and to that end are entred ; but also riotous , dicers , gamesters , quaffers , quarrellers , adulterers and such like . If the matter were secret I should doe amisse to make it manifest ; but when it is open in the sight and view of all men , who can complayn iustlie when it is spoken of ? Let this record of Mr G●ffords , for the effect of their administration and their good quallities besides , togither with Mr Bernards former doctrine for their first calling and ordination by the popish prelates ; shew whether it be not like , that this ministery will ere long make accord with the mother church of Rome that hatched it , and for whom it againe hatcheth cockatrices eggs . The tenth error that we should hold is , that their worship ( in Engl. ) is a false worship . To proue this to be an error , Mr Bern. bringeth these reasons . 1. That they worship no false God. I answer . Neyther did Ieroboam the son of Neba● who made Israel to syn : yet vsed he a false worship 1 King. 12. 2. That they worship the true God with no false worship ; for they haue the true word preached , the true sacraments , and their prayers are such as ma● be warranted by the word . &c. I answer , this is but taking for granted , that which he should proue ; for he knowes well that we deney th●se things , and by many reasons in sundry bookes ( none of which Mr Bern. answereth ) haue disproued their preaching , ministring of Sacraments , booke prayer &c. Seing he will answer nothing before written by vs , let him in his next booke , prooue that the Apocrypha scriptures and homily bookes , which they read in Gods worship are his true word ; that the sacraments which the vnpreaching priests minister to their profane parishioners by their popish leitourgie , are true sacraments ; let him approue by Gods word the obseruation of all their holy dayes , fasting dayes , with their prescript peculiar seruice ; briefly , let him shew warrant for his seruice book , the making and vse thereof with all the popish contents therein . These are strange incense , new forgeries of their own , neuer appoynted by Christ or his Apostles : wherefore we doubt not to affirme their worship to be false , euen an humane inuention . With these things Mr Bern. medle●h not , but bringeth proof for other matters , which we neuer denyed ; and referreth vs to an after treatise . which now next followeth to be answered . Yet ere he leaueth us , he will utter all his hart , and from his inner store powreth out against vs 12. errors moe , wh●ch he will not spend time ( he saith ) in con●ut●tion of , they are so absurd and false ; being also ( as he thinketh ) con●ured by the former . Though nothing need be answered where no shew of proof is made : yet to satisfy the reader and shew him the vanity of this aduersary , I will briefly touch them all ; and they be these . 1 That their congregations , as they stand , are all and euery of them vncapable before God to chuse them ministers , though they desire the meanes of saluation . Al such as desire the means of saluation in what congregations soeuer , haue , ower and liberty from God to separate from all euill , and ioyne togither in good , and so to enioy Gods blessings in his ministery , or any other part of the Gos●el But , we hold that no false church , hath power from God to chuse ministers : which he hath ordeyned onely for true churches . 1 Cor. 12.28 . E●h . 4 , 12 R●m . 12.4 , 5 &c. & we wonder with what face any Christian can say otherweise . If Mr Bern. make the error to be in holding them false churches ; then is it the same with the 8. error before answered , and is here b●t idly of him repeated . 2. That God in their best assembli●s , is worshipped after a false manner . An other idle repetition of that which before he made our Tenth error , which there was answered . 3. That baptisme is not administred into the fayth of Christ simply , but into the fayth of Bishops , and Church of Engl. This I think is Mr Bernards vncharitable collection , not our Position . Though we hold baptisme among them to be administred neyther by a true minister nor after a lawfull manner , but according to their own prescript Leitourgie and to the seed of the w●cked , with great dishonour of the precious blood of Christ ; and therefore to be no true seal of Gods couenant vnto them . 4. That their faith and repentance is a false faith , and a false repentance . Faithfulnes and repentance is desired in Mr Bernard himselfe , who careth not to calumniate us We professe to iudge no secret things such as true faith and repentance are . We are perswaded many in true churches may haue a false fayth and a false repentance , because there are many hypocrite● also that many in false churches may haue true faith and repentance , for there are Gods elect But who these are on both sides , we leaue vnto God that knowes them . Of Mr Bernards church this is that we say , they walke not in the true fayth , they bring not forth fruites of tr●e repentance , in the publick estate wherein they stand . 5. That th●ir Ministers conuerting men to God there , doe it not as Pastors but as Teachers . This distinction which Mr Bern. skoffeth at ▪ must rest , skoff and all , in his own bosome , till he bring out another father . I know not who begat it . 6. That their church standeth in an adultrous estate . A strange assertion ( sayth Mr Bern. ) what idol worship we ? False worship is spirituall adultery Ier. 3. If Mr Bern. were not a stranger in Christ fold , he would so acknowledge it , and not count it our errour . If he say the error is in holding their worship to be false ; then say I , he repeteth now the third time , that which before he made our 10. & agayn our second Errors , and if he goe forward thus , he may multiply it to a thowsand , and teach us new Arithmetik . If he would know what idol he worships ! let him take his Ordinary for one among many , who standeth for a spirituall Lord ouer many churches , vsur●ing Christs place : to him doth Mr Bern. with his flock , bow and stoup . An other idol he may ●●nde in his pue . 7. That we cannot say certaynly by any warrant of Gods word , that any of them hath eyther faith or fear of God. A hard speech , If that man whome he mentioneth in the margine , so sayd ; let not one mans word be imputed to our common cause He may see it otherwise minded by others of us , before in this treatise pag. 39 and our Apolog. pag. 91.92 . 8. That n●ne of their ministers may be heard . Not heard in the execution of their ministery , for it is of Antichrist . Christs sheep hear his voyce , not a strangers Ioh , 10 All Antichrists ministers are strangers . So are all ministers of euery false Church . Such their church and ministery hath bene proued to be in many treatises . 9 , That it is not lawfull to ioyne in prayer with any of them , As a false church generally , so the members thereof particularly , may not be communicated with in spirituall actions . Such we hold , & haue proued their church to be . Til Mr Bern. take away this foundation , he fighte●h but with shadowes ; and sheweth his ignorance in the communion of the Saincts . 10. That ministers may not celebrate mariage nor bury the dead . There wanteth a third thing to make vp the error , Churching of women These and the l●ke ministerial functions , we know the Romish Antichrist layeth on his priests , and the Prelates of England on theirs : But in Christs testament we finde no such duties imposed vpon his ministery Let Mr. Ber therefore bury his dead still ; for he will quicken but a few by his popish doctrine . 11 , That ministers should onely liue of voluntary contribution , and not eyther of set stipends or tithes . Against this Mr Bern. allegeth Gods wisdome who allowed a setled maintenance under the law : and there is nothing against it in the Gospel , God in wisdome appoynted tithes , first fruites & other particulars for his Prirsts liuelihod ūder the law : Christ in wisdom appoynt●th nōe such for his ministers under the gospell ; but Pope Paschalis about 827 yeares after Christ a decreed that tithes should be giuen to the priests . This Popes wisdome Mr Ber. preferreth before Christs . It cannot be deneyed but tithes were a part of the Law , and that Chris● abolished the legal Priesthood ; whervpon it followeth by the playn doctrine of the Gospel , if the priesthood be changed , then of necessity must there be a change of the law . Heb. 7.12 . But Mr Bern , had rather any shadow should be done away then this of Tithes , for it hath much substance with it . and there be moe siluersmithes of Demetrius minde which sayd , a Siroye know , that by this craft we haue our goods . But what sayth one of their own ancient Martyrs against Mr Bernards predecessors . b This Priesthood is blown so high and borne vp in pride and vayne glory of their estate and dignity , and so blinded with worldly couetousnes , that th●y disdayne to follow Christ in uery meeknes and wilfull pouerty , liuing holily , and preaching Gods word truely freely and continually , taking th●ir liuelihood at the freewil of the People ; of their pure almose , wher and when they suffice not for their true and busy preaching to get their sustenance with their hands To this true sentence grounded on Christs own l●uing , and teaching of his Apostles , these foresayd worldly and fleshly priests , wil not consent effect ally , &c. If this martyr were now aliue , the Clerg●e of England would sooner condemn him for a Brownist then appro●e of his doctrine ; albeit now that he is dead , they garnish his toomb . 12. That their churches ought to be raced down , and not to be jmployed to the true worship of God. To repayr this ruine , M. Bernard telleth us ; there is great difference between Antichristianisme and Paganisme . He might tel us also there is great difference between Paganisme & Paganisme , some Pagans worshipp●ng the true c God ignorantly ; some the Sun and Moon and host of heauen , some the Diuil himselfe . But what were this to the purpose ? The thing he should shew is that God more estemeth fauoureth aloweth or tolerateth antichrists idol howses , then of the Pagans . Till he doe this , we know that by Gods word and in his account , as Pagans d worship Diuils , so Antichristians e worship diu●ls Let men feign to themselues what difference they l●st . But it must be proued ( sayth Mr Bern. ) that our churches were built by Antichrist . First God in his law required no such proof , when he commanded utterly to destroy al the places wherein the nations which Israel should possesse serued their Gods ; f whether it were in the groue which Abraham himselfe had g planted , or on the altars which he had h builded ; the law of God made no inquiry Secondly , If M , Bern. will seek the records of his temples , he may find many to haue been builded by Papists , if he will grant that they be Antichristians : or if he will goe f●rther , he may finde some of them builded by heathens , and dedicated to Diuils . But though the Records sayd nothing , yet the form and shape of these masse howses , proclayme them to be the uery shrines of idols , and lyable to the Curse . Thus are we come to an end with M , Bernard ; passing by his impertinent discourses , which in his rouing he ran into : leauing him also for his unchristian reproches , and iniurious calumniations , to the mercy or iudgment of the Lord , who i behold commeth with ten thows●nds of his Saincts to giue iudgment against all men , and to rebuke all the vngodly among them , of all their wicked deeds which they haue wickedly committed , and of all their cru●l speakings , which wicked sinners haue spoke● against him . THE MINISTERS POSITIONS SHAKEN . THere is added to Mr Bernards book , an other work intituled ; CERTAIN POSITIONS held and maynteined by some godly ministers of the gospel , against those of the separation , and namely against Barrow & Greenwood . The groundwork whereof is thus layd ; That the Church of England is a true Church of Christ and such a one as from which whosoeuer wittingly and continually separateth himselfe , cutteth himselfe ●ff from Christ I will not stand vpon the consequences that may be made of this position , whereby all that abhorr●ng the abominations in that church , and so separating from it , are quite cut off from Christ , whatsoeuer truth they profe●●e and walke in , or whats●euer other church they ioyne vnto : but I will insist in a brie● answer to that which these Ministers bring to proue this their peremtory sentence , and they be 4. reasons . 1 , For that they enioy and ioyne togither in the use of those outward meanes which God in his word hath ord●yned for the gathering of an inuisible Church : that is , preaching of the gospel , and administration of the sacraments . 2. For that their whole church maketh profession of the true faith . 3. For that th●y hold and teach &c. all truthes fundamental . 4. For that all known churches in the world acknowledge that church for the●r sister , and giue vnto her the right hand of fellowship . These things haue been before handled in this treatise , and the weakne●●e of them discouered : yet because it may be thought new men will make new arguments , and many heads together bring forth deep counsels , let us weigh what these godly ministers haue here sayd . For proof of the first poynt , they doe allege that the meanes which they vse and enioy haue been effectuall to the vnfained conuersion of many : as may appear both by the other fruites of faith that may be found amongst them , and by the martyrdome which sundry haue endu●ed &c : yea euen we our selues are able to witnes with them , that if there be any true faith and sanctification in us , it was begun and bred in th●ir assemblies , Secondly , that if Mat. ●8 . 18.20 Eph. 4 , 11.12.14 be well examined , it wil●e found that the meanes which Christ ordeyned for the gathering of an inuisible church are the very same which they enioy euen the preaching of the word and administration of the sacraments . I answer ; All this that they say will not proue their , Position , namely that the church of England which consisteth of the whole nation , diuided in to many dioceses and parishes , vnder one or two Archbishops &c. is a true church of Christ. For the Papists boast of all these things , as colourable and as truely as these ministers Their priests haue conuerted many from Pagenisme , Iudaisme , and profanenes of life ; their church hath had many martyrs ; Luther and others that first left them , had their faith begun in their assemblies ; &c. and whatsoeuer Ministery is in England , from the Archprelate to the halfe priest , the Papists , haue amongst them yea Engl. had it from them . And it is to be admired that these godly ministers can allege nothing for their church , but such old popish stales . How vainely they assume these things vnto themselues , hath been shewed befo●e : a fruits of faith appear no● in their confuse assemblies wh●re God is publ●ckly dishonoured by false worship ; his enemies ( profane & wicked people ) fostered and ble●sed with his most holy things , and Antichristian prelates , and Canons obeyed : Were it as they say , that many haue been conuerted , is that ●enough to make all the church ? We haue testimonies from their b own mouthes that there be swarmes and thowsands of profane , irreligeous , atheists , blasphemers and open wicked liuers Mr Gifford a champion of their own hath confessed and printed it that c through want and absence of ● sincere ministery , there is a flood of ignorance and darknesse ouerflowing the most part of the land : the fear of God is banished from the greatest part : the wonderfull heaps and piles of sinne , which should be washed and clensed away by the word , doe undoubtedly with one voyce cry alowd in the eares of the Lord for ve●geance vpon the whole realm &c Shal now a few supposed conuerts , mak● all this rowt a Christian church ? It is impiety , and an ouerthrow of the Gospell . Gen. 3.15 . 2 Cor. 6.14 , 18 , Mat , 15.13 . Reu. 21..2 : 3.27 . and 28.15 . What meane these Ministers to boast so much of their martyrs whose blood cries against them , in the eares of the Lord of hosts . For did not their church kill them ? Let one of themselues speake in this case , least we be thought partiall . d Who knoweth not ( sayth Mr Nichols , ) how much blood of Gods Saincts . was spilt in former ages , and how many howses were guilty of blood ? And when did this land serio●sly and sincerely humble it selfe . & by ●pen repentance make reconciliation for the same ? Nay rather how many thowsands repined at the happy reign of her maiesty , for the casting out of the idolatrous and superstitious worship of God , and for the establishing of his holy nam● and the liberty in preaching of the G●spell ? This testimony is known to b● true ; the greater is their sinne that now plead for such a people to be a true Church of God. Shall the Cainites be honoured for Abels martyrdom ; or the Iewes for crucifying Christ ? then also may the bloody gen●tion of Papists be canonized for Saincts , and made members without r●pentance ) of a christian church . And for these ministers , let them heart and make vse of Christs words to their predecessors . e Woe unto you , for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets , and your fathers killed them Truly y● bear witnes and allow the deeds of your fathers , for they killed them , and y● build their sepulchres . f Fulfil ye also the measure of your Fathers . It is a slight and simple kinde of reasoning , to tel us if those scripture● Mat. 28. Eph. 4. be well examined ; it will be found that the meanes which Christ ordeyned for the gathering of an inuisible church , ar the uery same which they inioy . First , what doting Friar will not say this much , for his popish Synagogue ? Then , why doe not these ministers bring the meanes they boast of to the examination by these scriptures : is it yenough ( think they to the examination by these scriptures : is it yenough ( thinke they ) to cite a text or two , and then ran away ; The scriptures they allege haue been a before examined and the ministers of Engl. being put into the other ballance , are found all too leight . But if it were true that they had the mean● ; yet their argument is false if they conclude of the effect . Israel had farr better meanes ; then England I am sure : for the Prophets , and Apostles and Christ himselfe preached among them Yet loe he complayneth b that he had laboured in vayne ; for Ierusalem c killed the Prophets , and stoned those that were sent vnto them , and the Lord by his Apostles d stretched forth his hand to a disobedient and gainsaying people . And shall we thinke that the Pr●ests of Engl. haue such power and grace tied to their lips , that because they haue ●reached , therefore the whole nation is a true church ? Or dot● there such vertue proceed from these ministers , as can make the multitu●e of swaggering professors , atheists , blasphemers , and all sorts of profane which swarme in the land , to be turned Christians . worthy to be washed and fed with the body and blood of , Christ. and yet continue atheists and profane as before ? what wondrous effect shall we next hear of , but that their preaching hath conuerted the Diuils also . But let us hear what testimony M. Gifford hath left beh●nde him , of the gra● & learned pr●achers of the church of Engl : among whom himselfe was one , ) and of the people in their parishes , The Diull ( e sayth he ) is content those preachers should ride vpon his back because he is sure they will not spurg all him : they be very gentle riders . Doe ye not thinke , that if they should set forth Gods word as they ought , and spread the light : that all wicked , ( of which their parish is full , ) would storme and fret against them ? the Diuill himselfe would fi●k about , if they should spur him but a little . But they can tell a smooth tale in the pulpit garnished with some merry story , for to make the people merry or els some old rotten allegory ; or some far fetched matter out of some great writers , that their people may be at their wits end and e admit them . A man would thinke to see the people come out of the church blowing , that they were fed as ful as tikes : when they goe home with emty bellies . This I dare warrant , if it be not so let me loose both mine eares , that g●e through the parishes of these gra●e and learned Diuines and except such as run to fetch their victuals otherwhere , ye shall not finde fi●e among fiue skore , which are able to vnderstand the necessary grounds and principles of religion : and yet the People will say , they be excellent deep men . But I loue not those welles which are so deep , that a man can draw no water out of them . Loe here the means which the , parishes of England doe enioy , and worthy effects that follow . If Mr Barrow . or any of vs , should I haue written this , it would haue been counted s●●ffing , r●yling , & blasphemy : but now that Mr Gifford , ( so worthy a patron of the church ) hath thus recorded , I hope the witnes wil be thought irrefragable And now let these godly ministers examine Mat 28. & Eph. 4 and see if there they can finde these meanes which they enioy , iustified . But they proceed and tel vs in their second reason that f their whole church maketh profession of the true faith . For the Confessiō of their church tegither togither with the Apologie thereof , and those articles of religion agreed vpon in the Conuocation howse , anno 1562 , doe proue this euidently . But herein they would deceiue the simple euidently : for first profession of the true sayth , when men in practise doe deny it , maketh them not a true church , but they are as the Apostle sayth , a abominable . Then for profession it selfe , if it be by constreynt , for fear of punishment , by m●n that otherweise are profan● , lewd , and dissolute and enemies to the gospell this is no true profession , such as will make men a true church , for they ought to receiue and professe the truth willingly and gladly Psal , 110.3 . Act. 2 41. Now we know that with them , men were and are forced to the profession they make , and if it were at their own choise , many thowsands would professe otherwise . Their own acts and Monuments , ( besides manifest experience ) doe witnes this . For Mr Fox reporteth , that when K. Edward had established this church and religion many people b in Cornwal . Deuenshire and other places , not onely misliked it , but openly rebelled for their old idolatrie . The Preists , though some allowed , yet others c dissembled , and many carelessly con●emned all , and still excercised their old mon●ed Popery . The Iustices &c were not onely d slack in furthering of religion , but hindred so much as lay in them the Kings proceedings &c. So that ciuill force , not Christian zelo made men Protestants in that Kings dayes : wherefore at his death , hauing gotten Q. Mary , they so● vp agayn their Romish superstition , and persecuted the other vnto the death . Til Q. Elisah came , and inforced them the second tyme to put away the●r Latin Masse and images , and receiue that English seruice and ceremonies , wh●ch since haue preuayled to this day , Wh●ch how willingly the people ye●lded vnto , Mr Nichols testimony ( to omit all others ) before alleged , sheweth . And How wel this religion is liked of now after so many yeres ▪ let the multitude of church papists in England shew : together with the whole row● of rebels in Ireland , all which are of the communion of the church of Engl , hauing the same Bishops , Priests , service & ● the English and Irish that dwel in the country , being ioyned togither in one body and brotherhood : Then adde to these papists , the profane time-seruers , such as M. Gifford deseribeth thus , I know there be many which care not for the Pope , but yet beleeue much of his doctrine : they be those which we call Atheists of no religion : but look whatsoeuer any prince doth set forth that they will profess and add vnto them those other firarmes in the church of England that Mr Chaderton complayneth of ; eronius and hereticall sectaries , witches , charmers sorcerers , murtherers , theeues , adulterers , liars , &c and all these togither being compelled by law into one church and brotherhood , can any man doubt now of that which these ministers , f say , that their whole church maketh profession of the true faith ? The Confession , Apologie . and Conuocation-howse articles , are strange proofs of the peoples profession . If a few men in their Studies or Consistories , write books or articles of religion . and send them a broad ; must all people that see or hear them , wil they nil they , needs be counted professors of that religion ? yea such also as neuer heard of them in their liues nor cānot tel what they meāe ? Surly these ministers ar eyther very ignorant , or carelesse what they say , when they call this an euident proof . The churches in France and Belgia haue published Confessions and Articles also , better then those in England : yet are there thowsands and ten thowsands dwelling among them , that neyther so professe , nor are members of their churches . But if it were granted that the publicke writings , articles canons &c. are to be esteemed the faith & profession of all Engl. yet we deny them to make profession of the true faith ; for their Seruice book , homilies . book of Ordination , with the impious canons confirming all the Romish idolatries , Antichristian clergie and ceremonies that are among them , excommunicating , a ipso facto , all that speake against them ; this is no true Christian profession , whatsoeuer other truthes are mixed with them . For as the Papists holding many good grounds of religion in generall , yet by other additions and contradictions , do ouerthrow the truth : so is it in England , as before in this treatise , and in many others , hath been proued and after shall further appear . Whereas these Ministers confidently deny that their church accounteth any one for her childe or member , that doth not professe the faith of Christ in some measure : it is nothing but a vayn flourish . For was there euer such grossnes in the deepest gulfe of Popery as to deney Christ utterly , and not to professe him in some measure ? Nay it could not be the throne of Antichrist vnlesse he did professe Christ. It is wel known , none are baptised among the Papists , but they professe the very same faith that is now professed at the baptisme in Engl. namely that which they call th' Apostles Creed So then what haue these godly ministers sayd more then the simplest papist in the world could haue sayd for his church ? Now in that they make this a colour , as if the profane and wicked were not accounted children of the church : they shew themselues to be b the snare of a fowler in al their wayes : yet set they a snare so slight , that euery man may breake it . For who knowes not that there be multitudes of profane and wicked persons in the land ? Who knowes not that the whole land generally is baptised ? Yea the baptisiing of the seed of the most wicked , is not onely practised but befended in print , by their late Archbishop D. Whitg . who pleaded c what if it be the child of a dronkard , or of an harl●t ? what if the Parents be papists ? what if they be heretiks ? &c. shall not their children be baptised ? Yes , he will haue it to be a common passage for all uile persons , Good and euil ( sayth c he ) clean and vnclean , holy and profane , must needs passe by it . And at baptisme their seruice book teacheth the priest to say of euery one , we receiue this child into the congregation of Christs flock . Being thus receiued , not one of a thowsand wicked persons , are euer excommunicated : but are fostered in the church vntill their death ; and then the priest is taught agayn to say that e it hath pleased God to take vnto himselfe the sowle of their dear brother there departed , and so he committeth his body to the ground in sure and certayn hope of resurrection to eternal life . This being the generall state of the land , as all men know ; what dissemblers are these Ministers to intimate . as if their church acknowledged not the open wicked for her children and members ? Mr Gifford , when tyme was , yeilded farr otherweise . I confesse a ( sayth he ) that our church , if ye vnderstand the whole assembly , is ful of al wicked vices . There are a number among vs which are of your brood , speaking to a ●apist , ) wh●se euill life is seen wel yenough , there ar● a very great number of meer worldlings which doe not greatly esteem any religion although they seem now because of lawes , to allow and fauour our side . &c. Now hauing sayd somewhat for themselues , such as it is , they cauil b at our description of a church , when we say , that it is a company of faithfull people that truely worship Christ and rea●●ly obey him . This say these Ministers , is vtterly vntrue if it be understood of the visible church . This is strange . What would they haue vs describe the Church to be a company of infidels ; or a company of faithfull and of infidels togither : when Paul teacheth that there is no communion between such , 2 Cor 6.14.15 or should we say , a people that falsely worship Christ ? Indeed if so we held , we might wel returne to their Church of England ; for there is false worship more then yenough . The Apostle writing to the visible church of Ephesus , calleth them c Saincts , and th● faithfull in Christ Iesus . Wil they say that this also was utterly untrue ? Their own Articles of religion in England d say thus ; the visible church of Christ , is a congregation of faithfull people &c. and is this also vtt●rly vntrue ? But let vs hear their reason why this should be vntruth . For ( say they ) if euery one that the church may account a visible member , be truely faithfull , how is our Sauiour to be vnderstood when he compareth the chur●h or ministery thereof to a draw net gathering aswel that which must be cast away as good fish &c. Me thinks these godly ministers f should be ashamed so to depraue not onely our meaning , but our very words , that when we say of faithfull people , that truely worship , they wil turne and trans● lace them to truely faithfull , and then gather ( as afterwards they doe , ) as if men may not account any to be members of the church , by their outward profession , vnl●sse they know them to haue true faith , which the Lord onely is able to dis●●rne . Could any reasonable man thus construe our words , or gather from them , vnlesse he purposely would depraue ? especially knowing ( as these men know wel ) our constant witnesse otherweise , who esteeme of all men , by their outward profession and walking ; and haue long since published in our Confussion , e that many hypocrites will lurke in the church whiles it is on earth . But thus it pleased these men to abuse vs , before the simple reader . Their third reason for their church is , that f they hold teach and maynteyn every part and article of Gods holy truth which is fundamentall . The proof of this , they would haue to be seen in their Confessions , Catechisnes and Articles of religion published and approued of in their church . This reason is like ( if not the very same with ) the former , which s●ake also of professing the true faith , as was to be seen in their Conf●s●●●n , Apologie , & Articles . What meane these ministers to cloy their reader so oftē with one dish of meat , a little diuertly dressed ? It is doubtlesse for want of better store . Yet this wh●ch they bring is very vnsauoury , for it is not seasoned with the salt of Gods couenant . First for that poynt of f●ndamentall truth , which they so long haue stood vpon , and co●ld neu●r be gotten distinctly to shew what truth is fundamental , and what not : we haue now these ministers resolute judgement of it thus , a The onely fundamental truth in religion is this ; That Iesus Christ the Son of God , who took our nature of the Virgin Mary , is our onely and alsufficient Sauiour For proof of this , they first allege , that th●y receiue this truth are the people of God , and in the state of saluation : they that receiue it not cannot possibly be saued . Mat. 16.18 Mark. 16.16 1 I●h . 4.2 . Col 2.7 . But first , none of these scriptures doe say , that this one article , which these ministers haue set downe in this forme of words , is the onely fundamentall truth in religion . Neyther doth any other scripture , that I know of , so speake ; for though Christ b onely is the foundation of the Christian church ; and though ( as they secondly allege ) no other point of religion is necessary otherwise then as it tendeth necessarily to teach or confirme this one truth : yet foloweth it not , but other points also are fundamental truthes the denyall of which will abolish from Christ. Secondly they haue altered , added to , and omitted some of the words of these scriptures , for their own aduantage : For fearing that we would ( as indeed we mean to doe ) presse them with the profession of the Anabaptists Papists and other heretiks ; they thinke to preuent vs. And first against the Anabaptists which deny that Christ took our flesh , these men haue added , who took our nature of the Virgin Mary . Then against the papists which hold merit of works , they adioyne these words , our onely and alsufficient Sauiour . And this because the church of England mainteyneth the truth in these points , against those fore sayd heretiks . On the other hand to help themselues in their corrupt Antichristian walking , and false constitution ; they omit and mention not th' Apostles words Col. 2. wher he sayth , c As ye haue receiued Christ Iesus the Lord , so walke in him , rooted and built in him , and stablished in the faith , as ye haue been taught &c The discreet reader may soon espy their purpose in this cunning cariage . d For let the position be set downe in the scripture termes , and we shall see , how weake their plea will be . The onely fundamentall truth in religion is this : That Iesus is e the Christ , the sonne of the liuing God , f comen in the flesh in whom we must g beleeue and h walke , being rooted and build in him , and stablished in the faith as we are taught in the new testament . If now these ministers will insist vpon the three first scriptures onely , and generall terms that are in them ; it is apparant that the Papists , Anabaptists and many other miscreants , doe hold and professe them absolutely : absolutely : But if they joyne with them , Colos. 2. and compare the walking rooting , building , and stablishing in the faith taught by th' Apostles , with the Popish church , or with their own ; it wil be found that neyther of them hold the fo●ndation Christ aright . Themselues w●ll grant it of the Pap●sts and other heretiks . and for their own church , it is before in this a treatise proued ▪ So then to come agayn vnto their reason , that they hold , ●e●ch and mainteyn euery part of Gods holy truth which is fundam●ntall ; whereby they woul● concl●de themselues to be a true chr●ch the ar●ument is deneyed . F●r first if ●t were granted that th●y h●ld , ●aught and mai●teyn●d every part of fund●●ental truth , which yet with them is but one article onely as we haue heard , ) it w●ll not follow necessaryly that therefore they are a true ch●rch , or that they truely professe the Christ an faith . There wan● two things ; 1 obedience to the truth professed ; ( witho●t which men b shal be damned , whatsoeuer they professe , ) 2 and a right profession of the true faith onely , without err●urs adioyned that ouerthrow the same faith , and obedience thereto For if a people profe●sing that onely fundamentall truth which these ministers c speake of ; should withall professe Mahomet the prophet of the Turks ; or H. N. the God of the Familists ; or any other like abomination : were this misceline profession of Christ and Belial togither . a true and sound profe●sion ? I trow not . So then these ministers must alter their plea thus ; that they hold teach mainteyn and obey every part of the fundamentall truth , and nothing els with it , that ouerthrowes the same . If now they say this they doe , I haue before in this treatise d disproued it ; and here agayn will briefly disproue it , thus . They professe to beleeu e the Communion of Saincts ; and that the visible church is f a congregation of faithfull people . Yet contrariweise they hold teach and mainteyne , that their own church is a true church of Christ ; though it consists as wel of vnholy as holy , infidels as beleeuers and innumerable wicked persons openly seen and known . That this they hold & mainteyn , is pro●ed by their continual clamors and reprochful writings against vs , that call vpon them for a separation of light from darknesse . It is proued by Dr W●itgifts plea before mentioned , that the children of Papists , heretiks , and other wicked persons are and ought to be baptised amōg the● It is further proued by the visible estate of their church knowne vnto all among them , and test●fied by her dearest freinds & fauourers . M● Gifford speaking to his brethren ●f the Communion of Saincts in Engl. sayth , g Yee would euen powr out your stin●ing and r●t●en p●yson , like blaspemous and venemous beasts : ye would speake after this manner , you that are so full of the spirit ; you that are Saincts , and su●h like . What are you Di●ils ; are ye of the flesh ? No do●ut ye are , vntill God convert ye . But we may se how diui●ishly men ar become wicked : when a man cannot make any appearance to be godly and holy , but it is reproched as though it were a shamefull thing to be lead by the spirit &c. These and the like records , with the continuance continuance in this confused estate , plainely proue an ouerthrow of that article of the true church ; which is the body of Christ : and the body being disanulled , Christ the head cannot soundly be reteyned . Agayn , they professe in Engl. that a the pu●e word of God is to be preached , the sacraments duely administred &c. also , that b in our doings , that will of God is to be followed which we haue expresly decleared vnto vs in the word of God. Yet withall , they professe and practise in that church , to c read the Apocrypha ●criptures ( in which are found vntruthes and errors , when many parts of the authentik scripture , are neuer read among them . ) they haue also written d homilies , in sted of preaching ; a written Le●tourg●e , Letany , collects &c. in sted of praying ; which e Leitoargie with all the popish contents therein . must be approued and vsed by all the Priests and people , and God serued by it euery day . They haue also an antichristian clergie , ca●led and ordeyned according to their pontifical , or book of ordination , which ●n their beleef , f hath not any thing that of it selfe is s●perstitious and vngodly &c. Finally all the Romish reliques yet in England to be seen in the hierarch●e , worship , ceremonies , ordinances church constitution &c. ( which things can neuer be approued by the word of God , ) are yet g held and vpheld , taught and mainteyned in the church to the excommunicating and persecuting of all such , as speake against them , or refuse to communicate with them . This sinfull mixture , and maintenance of so much ant●christian error , with the christian truthes that they profe●●e ; is no true Christian profession and practise of our obedience vnto the fundamentall truth of the gospell : neyther can the ministers proue , that these contraries will stand together , when account shal be giuen before the iudgment seat of Christ. Secondly I answer ( as to their former reason that although some Bishops and Priests haue written Articles , Catechismes &c. yet are not these approu●d , much lesse walked in , by the church of Engl. neyther are the people rooted , b●ilded , and stablished in the faith according to Colos. 2. but are di●●olute and profane in their conuersation , rooted in uices , and stablished in iniquitis as lamētable experience teacheth all men ; as the test●mon●es of their own ministers before alleged proue , and many other we might allege , and must ; if these men still continue to vrge that , which is knowne to be farr otherweise . For how well their people doe walke in the faith of the foundation Christ , and approue of all fundamentall truthes in the scriptures ; let these testimonies of their own freinds shew . The most part of your honest men ( saith Mr Gifford h to and of his brethren ) now a dayes , delight so much in the word of God , and meditate so much in it , that they care not a button though they neuer heare it . they loue it : and set as much by it as they doe by an old s●●e . Euery man ( sayth i an other ) followeth the pride couetousnes , whordome , dronkennes , of his owne hart , and no man remembreth Ioseph . The barrs are filled with pleadings , & the streets are full of cries of the poor , fulnes of meat , and contempt is among vs , and who considereth ! Yet if this our sinne were onely against men , and not against God there ●ight be some hope . But when the mouth of the bl●spemous swearer is not ti●d vp , and the hands of the idolatrous generation of Atheists and profane persons be not chained , when the most holy and precious word of God is manifestly contemned , the ioyfull and heauenly tidings of saluation so negligently and vngratefully troden vnder foot , the true and faithfull messengers pursued , arraygnned and diuers wayes ●fflicted : then if the old world for malicious imaginations Sodome and Gomora for pride fulnes of meat and vnmercifulnes : if Ierusalem for abusing Gods Prophets and wilfulnesse were woefully destroyed : what may we poor carelesse People look for it we doe not repent , but ( as it is almost vniuersally feared sp●edy ruine and vtter desolation , The exceptions which these Godly ministers take against Mr Barrowes writings , and yet professe a not to answer them ; need not now to be stood vpon , till the particulars whereby he hath discouered their errors and euill dealings , be by them taken away . They further taxe & note it in him as b a strange opinion and an error full grosse , mainteyned in pag. 156.157 . of his Discouery , vidz that euery truth conteyned in the scripture is fundamentall . But the grossnes or crossnes wil be found in themselus for that which Mr Barrow there inueigheth against , was this , c that though transgressions and errors be obstinately continued in , and openly taught . after they be reproued and conuinced by the word of God , yea and the parties dye in that estate without repentance of these transgressions or errors : yet may they hold the foundation and be vadoubtedly saued . Of this minde were , and still continue ( sayth he ) fiue of the very principal and best esteemed ministers of Engl. both for learning and conscience : although there were alleged against the same these expresse scriptures , Num. 15.30 31. Exod. 23.21 . 1 Sam. 15.22.23 . Ezek. 18.26 Mat. 5 , 18 , 19 Iam. 2 10. &c. This was the thing that M , Bar. there bet down , shewing further , that if the whole scripture was giuen by inspiration of God , and is profitable to teach , to conuince , to correct , to instruct in righteousnes ; if it be the groundwork and foundatiō of the church , of our fayth : if it be the law and rule of our life , the light of our eyes &c. If euery word of God be holy , pure , perpetuall ; then is this deep learning of theyrs , diuilish and blasphemous , that thus to colour and couer their wickedness . make some part of gods word fundamentall . substantiall , necessary , other accidentall , superficiall , needlesse , especially where it sheweth reproueth and condemneth their doings &c Now what say these ministers against this plea ? they plainly yeild in effect to th'truth , which they could with no coulour gainsay ; we beleeu ( say d they ) and teach , that there is no Part of holy scripture , which euery Christian is not necessarily bound to seek , & desire knowledge of so far sorth as in him lyeth . Very wel sayd & ; had they added also this word obeyed , ( which I suppose they would be thought to intimate , ) there would be no difference between M , Barrow and them , though thus they would traduce him . But least they should seeme to condemne themselues , they except . yet dare a we not cal euery truth fundamentall ; that is , such as if it be not knowne and obeyed , the whole religion and fayth of the church must needs fall to the ground ; and agayne ; b we doubt not that some parts are of more vse , and more necessary for men to know , then othersome . In these things ( excepting the word fundamentall which seemeth to be but strife about a word , ) We agree with them ; neyther doth Mr Barrow , that I can perceiue disagree for it is one thing not to know and obey euery truth , as they speake , and another thing to know , as hau●ng reproofe and conuiction by the word of God , and yet to disobey and rebel against the truth , and continue obstinately in transgre●sion ▪ which was the poynt in hand . And for the world fundamentall , seing all Gods testimonies are true ; and Dauid sayth that the Lord hath c founded them for euer ; I see no cause why we need be afraid to call euery tr●th fundamentall that is such as is firme and stable . and on which we shovld ground and builde our faith and actions vp on alwayes . Yet seing now what these ministers vnderstand by the word , I will not striue . Also M , Barrow himselfe in his Obseruations vpon Mr Giff●rds last reply telleth him that he d denyeth not in vse of speech such distinction , so much as withstand such eronius abuse of that distinction , which M. Gifford and other deuines of these tymes would infer thereof . And in deed the simple are much beguiled by this subtile distinction . For when the sinns and idolatr●es of these Priests are blamed : answer is made , though they be sinns , yet are they not fundamentall , they cut vs not off from Christ we hold him the foundation , and beleeue to be saued by him alone and by this colour , men continue in transgression and idolatrie stil. which is as if a theef , dronkard , whormaister , blasphemer , or other vicious , liuer , being blamed by the lawes of God which condemne these sinnes , should say ; These are petty faults I confesse , but they are not fundamental : for the onely fundamentall truth and ground of all Gods law is Loue , and that is the fulfilling of the law . Rom. 13.8 9.10 . Gal. 5.14 . 1 Tim. 1.5 . Now this foundatio● I hold , for I professe to loue God aboue al , and my neighbour as my s●lfe , on which ground as Christ sayth e the law and prophets doe depend ; and this I doe , howsoeuer I cannot keep my tongue from swearing , lying and ●i●auldrie , nor my hands from picking and stealing , nor my body chast , &c. yet my hart is good , I loue God and my neighbour , and hope to he saued as well as the precis●st puritan of them all , And now what will these ministers say to the●r profane parishioners , if thus they pleaded ? for doe not themselues thus plead for the trans●reossins of the first table , and violating of the testament of Christ , in their own false ministery , idolatrous rites , ceremonies , and forged worship . But as euery true Christian hart knoweth that such profane ruffians , howsoeuer they say they loue god , yet in deed they hate him , and howsoeuer the s●mme and end of all the Law is Loue onely , yet that loue implyeth obedience to every particular precept , and he which breaketh the least commandement and teacheth men so , shal be called the least in the kingdome of heauen ; as Christ f sayth : so know they likeweise , or should know , that such superstitious idolaters , false and Antichristian Prelates and priests , howsoeuer they boast of true fayth , yet by theyr works they deney it ; and although Fayth in Christ be the foundation of Christian religion , yet in im●lieth necessarily obedience vnto the ordinances of his Testament , euen b whatsoeuer is commanded them therein ; and as the curse is denounced against all the transgressors of Moses law in any part thereof ; so they shall not escape vengeance d that wilfully despise the law of Christ or any part of his testament , confirmed with his precious blood . And if thus we vnderstand not and interpret those scriptures which sum vp al christianity in Christ ; we must needs confesse that many false churches , euen Rome it selfe is a true church ; seeing they doe professe such generall grounds of Christ , as by playn evidence of scripture seem sufficient vnto saluation , as appeareth by Council Trident. Se●s , 3. compared with Rom. 10.9 . Act. 8.37 , 38. 1 Ioh. 4.2 . Mark. 16.16 . also Rhemes testam annot . on 1 Tim. 2.5 . wher they professe , Christ by nature to be truely both God and man , to be that on eternall priest and redeemer , which by his sacrifice and death vpon the crosse , hath reconciled us to God , and payed his blood as a full and sufficient ransome for all our sinns , &c. How beit , that these ministers stumble no more at that we professe , let them know , we hold euery generall head and ground of doctrine more necessary to be known , then ech particular branch of the same ? & an error ouerthrowing a whole ground of religion , to be much more wicked then that which ouerturneth but a part thereof . Also that many of Gods church , are ignorant of sundry particular doctrines of the Gospell yea all of vs in some , for none is perfect ; yet that in some generall grounds , ignorance is damnable ; and further that the wilfull and obstinate refusall or contempt of the least evident truth of the Gospel , is f deadly and damnable of it own nature . Neyther see we , how we should beleeue otherweise , vnlesse with the Papists we think some sinns veniall some mortall As for Mr Barrowes words from Ioh. 16.13 . which also , these ministers mistaking doe g mislike ; it is evident by his own writings h to the contrary otherwhere , that he meant not so erroniously as they collect . But that promise made to the Apostles , he applieth vnto all the members of Christ by proportion , though not in like measure . Which that it may be done , we learne of the Apostles themselues in other like cases . 2 Cor. 4.13 . from Psalm . 116. Heb. 13.5.6 . from Ios. 1 & Psal. 118. &c. Their last reason is from the approbation of all the known churches in the world , which acknowledge this church ( of Engl. ) for their sister , and give vnto them the right hand of fellowship . This poynt is handled before in this treatise , pag. 9. &c. & 48 & 51. &c. vnto which places I refer the reader . Many scriptures and reasons these ministers allege from the primitiue churches examples , that reioyced for . and saluted one another ; & of and of the comfort that a church may haue in the communion and approbation of other churches . All which we grant ; and d●e obserue , how fast ●hey can cite scriptures for things that we deny not . But they say nothing for the controuersie between them and vs. which consisteth of these 3. poynts ; 1 whither a people may not separate from euill and professe and walke in the truth vnlesse or vntill other churches allow them 2. whether it be a necessary and vndenyable argument , that whomsoeuer other churches approue , they are true churches , and so must be esteemed of all men ; 3 and whither the reformed churches at this day , doe approue of the church of England , in all or any of the differences for which we s●parate from them . The first of these is proved by all Gods commandements , which require euery man particularly to refrayn all evill , and doe that which is good : Exod. 20. The second is disproued by themselues in their writings against the Papists ; who pressed them with such reasons . Let councels ( sayth a Mr Whitaker ) be esteemed as they deserue : let their decrees be examined by Gods word ; and if they agree let them be receiued for that agreement : if not , let them be reiected for the contrary . To this agreeth their own Bishops Articles , ano 1562. Art. 21. and also their Apoligie ; before alleged in b this trea●ise ; and finally Mr Bernards own counsel . ( though perhaps he knew no more then Caiaphas what he sayd . ) saying ; c See into the glasse of the word by thine own sight , without other mens spectacles &c. For the latter poynt , we know the reformed churches ( as their constitution and writings shew ) are for vs and against them ; of which see before pag 10 , &c. and it shall hereafter be further confirmed , if these ministers will deny it . Hitherto of the reasons alleged by the godly ministers wherein how they haue proued and setled their first position ; let the godly wise judge . Next follow their answers to the obiections made by vs. And these they make two . First , that their church of Engl. was not gathered by such meanes as God in his word hath ordeyned and sanctified for the gathering of his Church . d Secondly , e that they communicate together in a false and idolatrous outward worship of God , which is polluted with the writings of men , vidz . with read slinted prayers , homilies , catechismes , &c. Here let it first be obserued , that whereas Mr Barrow ( whose books they would seem to answer , ) hath f giuen 4. causes of our separation , namely the 1. false worship , 2. profane people , 3 false ministery , and 4. Antichristian hierarchie ; these godly ministers like the vniust steward g that set down fifty for fiue skore , haue contracted the 4. causes into 2. for what cause let him that readeth consider . Secondly in the two which they professe to answer , they keep not the words by Mr Barrow there set downe ; as to begin with the first ; he sayth For that the profane vngodly multitudes without exception of any one person are with them receiued into and reteyned in the bosome of the church These ministers set down the poynt to be about the not gathering by due meanes . Whereas if it were granted that they had due meanes of gathering , yet the exception made is of force against them , rather more then lesse for they that haue the true meanes of gathering a church , and yet gather it amisse ; the greater is their sinne . Now to the particulars , whereas Mr Barrow had first a shewed by many scriptures and reasons what manner persons were to be the matter of Gods church ; and then compared here with the people of the church of Engl. where all sorts of wicked persons are admitted & kept in communion : to this the ministers answer , b First that they might lawfully be accounted a true church , though it could not appear that they were at the first rightly gathered . For euen as the Disciples might be wel assured of Christs bodily presence amongst them when they saw and felt him , though they could not haue discerned which way or how he could possibly come in . so may we esteem them a true church , of whose present profession and faith we are wel assured , though we cannot see by what meanes they were first gathered . This answer of theirs is full of errour and frawd ; for , ( not to speake how they corrupt Mr Barrowes words in the places which they quote ; by leauing out things of speciall importance , ) first they blamed because all profane & wicked persōs ar of the mater their church ; they tel us , they may esteem them a true church of whose present profession and fayth , they are wel assured . If this answer be direct and to the purpose then we must beleeue that the godly ministers are wel assured of the present profession and faith of all the lewd , profane . irreligious and wicked persons in the realm , which are members of the church of Engl. Against these was the exception made ; for these the answer is giuen , vnlesse they answer their own fansies . and now what assurance the ministers have of such mens faith , let the faithfull iudge . Secondly the similitude which they bring , is a great abuse of the reader , whome they would blinde with a false comparison ; which if it were duely made , would make against them thus . As the disciples might be wel a●●ured of Christs bodily presence when they saw and felt him &c. so men may he wel assured of the wickeds bodily presence in the church of Engl : when they see and feel them , as who doe not ? But now as these men haue made the parable , what likelihood of truth is there in it , for iustifying the vngodly ? If a man seeing a Priest in bed with one of the Popes courtizans , should blame him for this fornication , and an other to defend him should plead thus ; As we are sure that Sarah was Abrahams wife , though we cannot tell when or how they were married . so may wee esteeme these two ( of whose present chascity we are wel assured , ) to be lawfull man and wife , though we cannot tel how they came together ; would this be a sufficient defence ? Yet loe when Mr Barrow blamed the Priests of England for linking themselues in the bed of spirituall loue , with the idolatrous Papists and all other wicked of the land , at the beginning of Q. Eliz. and continuing in like sinful commixtur vnto this day : these Ministers now , to saue their credit , tel vs an example of Christ presence , &c. as before is seen . Yea the indignity of it stayeth not here ; for as the Apostle by the Ministery of the gospell prepared the church of Corinth , as a pure virgin for her husband Christ , so these men pretending to be true Ministers , will haue Papists , Atheists , profane and wicked persons , to be Hephzi-bah a people in whome God delighteth ; they will bring this sinfull and adulterous generation , even all the vngodly in the land , vnto the bed of Christ in his church , whether he will or no Which high transgression , is the ouerthrow of the mayn ground of the gospell ; which euer since it began to be sounded in the world , hath proclamed a separation of the children of God from the children of Belial , as before hath bene proued . This being thus obserued , how these ministers haue missed at first o● the question ; the further they goe , the further they stray , and run themselues out of breath in vayn . For neyther the examples of Melchisedek , Iob , Cornelius &c. nor their reasons following of 2 other meanes of gathering the church then by the preaching of the Gospel ; 3 of the preaching of Mr. Wickliff . &c 4 & 5 of the course that Q Elizab. took for bringing the Gospell in agayne &c. none of these ( I say ) will proue eyther that open profane and wicked persons , may be receiued and kept in the bozome of the church ; or that there be not multitudes of open profane and wicked , members of the church of England . Their present lamentable estate proclaymeth this latter to all men that haue conscience ; their own writings also heretofore doe strongly confirme it : and all the scriptures cry out against the former & teach a separation as before in this treatise , and in sundry other books is manifested . As these ministers have thus passed by the mayn controuersie ; so haue they in their pretended answers , inserted some things corruptly and fraudulently : which I will briefly touch First , for to bolster out the constreyned profession of faith , and ioyning to the church which their people are compelled vnto , they plead ; b that Synce Kings became noursing fathers &c. to the church ; their lawes haue been means to bring men to the outward society of the church ; and the parable proueth , that men may be compelled to come ; Luk. 14 , 23. This doctrine openeth a dore in the church to all the profane in the world , contrary to the scriptures ; Isa 25.2 & 35.8 , 9.2 Chron. 23.19 . Reu. 21.27 . Leuit. 10.14 . Zac. 14.21 , 2 Cor. 6.14 , 17. Act. 2.41 . & 19.9 . For if a prince may compel some of his subiects to be members of the church , he may compel al ; and if one prince may doe it , all may . So if there were such an Emperor as Augustus that commanded c all the world to be taxed , he might also command and compell all the world to be ioyned vnto the church . And thus the world and the church , between whom there hath been perpetuall warr , mought soon be reconciled . If this be a lawfull and orderly course , it is strange that Christ sent forth poor fishermen to conuert sowles by preaching , and set not the princes , ( which he could as easily have done , seing he had a al power in heauen , & in earth ) to make disciples by compulsion and penalty . Now for the parable they allege , it is apparant , that the same seruant was sent to b compell , that was before sent to call the inuited : and if this be meant of the Magistrate then , kings must leaue gouerning and goe to preaching . We finde in the scripture , that compulsion is not alwayes by the ciuill sword , but sometime by instant and earnest vrging of the word and doctrine ; as they that c compelled the Galatians to be circumcised ; and he that d compelled the Gentiles to Iudaize . And from this word compell , to vrge or gather a ciuill forced compulsion , is with no more reason or colour , then as if some factious rebells should take vp armes for to stablish religion ; and allege how it is written e the kingdome of heauen suffreth violence , and the violent take it by force For as force and violence here , is not ciuill but spiritual ; so is compulsion to be taken in the parable . But a throne ( sayth Solomon ) gets vp in a dronkards hand ; and a parable in the mouth of fools . Prou. 26.9 . They allege f that the first conuersion of our land to the faith of Christ , was by preaching of the gospell . Whether this were so or not , remayneth for them to proue in their next book for in this they doe it not . They must ( I suppose ) take the preaching of the gospel in a large sense , if they will proue it . For as it is vncertayn what was the fayth of the ancient Brittaines , or how they were converted ; so for the English Saxons which were conuerred from Paganisme , Mr Bale one of their own writers ) saith g that Austen the Roman was sent as an Apostle from Gregory 1. to conuert them to a popish fayth . And by an other Chronicler we learne h that Pope Gregorie 1. sent this Austen the monk into Engl. with fourty monks moe , which entred the ile of Thennet on the east side of Kent , with a crosse & with banners displayed , hauing a crucifix painted vpō every one of them singing the Letany , with Orate pro nobis . to al Angels , Archangels , Patriarches , Prophets , Priests , Apostles , Martyrs , Confessors , Virgins , Monks Nunns , Heremites , and finally to all hee Saincts and shee Saincts , that they might haue good luck , and wel to fare , in setting forth their Romish religion . But howsoeuer the conuersion of English men was then ( which is not now to be stood vpon till we hear the testimony of the best approued histories , which these men i say they haue for their assertion ) it is sure by the scripures , that the churches in Rome . Corinth , and many other places were conuerted by the gospell : yet remayn they not true churches still . But ( say these ministers ) since that time many haue from age to age been called by the same means , And so say I , hath there been in Rome : yet is she a k harlot and not Christs spowse . Great numbers ( say they ) were effuectally called in K. Edwards dayes . I answer , the whole land was compelled by ciuill force to change their forme of seruice in part ; and sundry true doctrines were taught in some places , which some beleued : but many disobeyed and rebelled . as before l is shewed . Neyther was that confuse popish multitude with a few conuers therein , a true visible church . Mr Fox describeth the estate thereof by a similitude ; a a a new face of things began now ( sayth he ) to appear , as it were in a stage , new players comming in , and the old being thrust out . Thus vpon that old stage of the popish church , came new players , to weet , new Bishops & Priests ; and the b masse was then ( at first ) still by law reteyned , but the gospel and Epistle read in English ; yet were not all new players for ( as is ther noted ) the preists and clergie that yeilded to the kings lawes , were suffred to keep th●ir places , liuings &c. After this the king appoynted the c Archbishop of Cant , with other Bishops &c. to make one conuenient and meet order , rite and fashion of common prayer and administration of Sacraments &c. who did so . Then in the Parliament following , it was agreed that all ministers in the realm should be bound to say and vse the mattins , euensong celebrating of the Lords supper &c. in such order and form as was mentioned in the sayd book and none other or otherweise . But the players , it seemeth , played not their parts well . for after complaint is made , how by the cloked contempt , wil full winking , and stubborne disobedience of Bishops and old Popish curates ; the book of common prayer was long after the publishing thereof eyther not knowne at all , or els very irreverently vsed through many places of the realm . Yet was there no great cause why the people should so despise it ; for ( as the K. answered to the rebels of Deuonsh . ) if the seruice in the church was good in Latin , it remayneth good in English ; for nothing is altered , but to speak with knowledge , that which was spoken in ignorance . Now let the reader minde what was the estate of the church in those dayes ; and see if the word of God will approve it . But there were say f these men ) great numbers by preaching so effectually called , that in Q Maries reign , many sealed the truth with their blood : I acknowledge it ; and say also that as there haue many martyrs died heretofore in the Popish church , so I doubt not , but great numbers at this day are by preaching so effectually called , in Rome , Spayn &c. that if Turks or Pagans should preuayl ouer them , they would mainteyn & seal Christian religion with their blood , rather then submit to Mahomet . For ( as one of your best ministers hath truely sayd ) God of his infinite goodnesse who c●lleth thyngs that are not as though they were , even in that ministery , hath giuen grace vnto his Saincts ; & , it was impossible that the man of sinne should so much adulterat the word of God , but that it should be to the faithfull a gospel of salvation . It is further alleged , h there were sundry secret congregations all Q Maries dayes which gladly receiued the gospell offred by Q. Eliz. & ( say thes ministers ) if it be sayd that they ceased to be the tru churchs of Christ , becaus they ioyned & became one body , with such as were newly come ( and that not of conscience but for fear onely ) from idolatrie : we answer , that they rather that-had fallen from the Gospel in Q. Maries dayes were moued by Q Eliz : proclamation , to ioyne themselues vnto them , that had stood faithfully all that while , Here is still building vpon the sands , for the profane & popish multitude had not receiued the gospel before , but ( as hath been shewed ) wer● constreyned by K. Edw. against their wills to hear English Mattins in their churches , where they were wont to hear Lati● Latin masse ; and were glad with all their hearts when their old blind devotion did agayn take place , and they might suck the blood of such as spake against it . So they cannot rightly be sayd to fall from the gospel , which they neuer receiued . And what secret congregations there were in Q. Maries dayes , I know not : but if they were so secret , as onely they met now and then in priuate , and ordinarily went to church openly with Papists , they were not a true church of Christ. And that constreyned , vnion of Papists and of Protestants at the beginning of Q Eliz reign , vnder Archbishops , Bishops , Priests &c. with most of the same mattins , even-songs , rites , ceremonies &c. that before had been imposed ; this order can neuer be warranted by the testament of Christ , nor such a commixture proued to be a true church . And whereas it is noted for a an other vntruth that Mr. Barrow and Greenu● . should say , that in one day by the blast of her Maiesties , trompet at the Beginning of her reign , all sorts of men were drawne to a prof●ssion of the gospell , without any further means vsed : these ministers may be seen to be mere cauillers , and bent to depraue . For the words euen as themselues haue set b them down , ( whereby the reader may espy their falshoode ) were these , where such profane multitudes were all immediately from publicke idolatry at one instant receiued or rather compelled to be members of this church , in some parish or other , without any due calling to the fayth , by the preaching of the Gospell going before , or orderly ioyning together in the faith , there being no voluntary or particular confession of their own faith &c. Now these men to reign an vntruth , yea an other vntruth when non● was afore , haue among other things , changed without any due calling to the faith into without any further meanes vsed ; and then to conuince this their own fictiō , they tell vs of sundry preachers sent betweē Nouember & Midsommer that called many . But his neyther cleareth them of corrupt dealing , nor proueth that the whole realme which at Midsommer was compelled to this church , worsh●p , ministery , &c. was duely called vnto the fayth : much lesse that they orderly ioyned together in the same . So that the vntruth must rest in their own bosome . This being proued ( say these ministers ) that there was a true Church in thi● land , before her Maiesties reign ; the question must not be whether the meanes she vsed were the right meanes for the first calling and conuerting a people in the faith ; but wether she took not a lawfull course for the recalling and reuniting of her subiects vnto those true professors , whose fellowship they had forsaken . Loe how these men run on , as if they had proued that , whereof we haue yet heard scarce any shew of proof . And altering closely the question , they say there was a true church in the land ; whereas they must prou● a true church of the land , as now it is and long hath been esteemed the Church of England , hauing an Archbishop and other officers ouer it , which ●re in their Conuocation house , the Representative Church of England . So it no● not being a true church the examples , they allege of reformation by the Kings of Iudah , fit not their turnes ; for Iudah was a true church , though some corruptions had crept in , as will easily doe into the best . ) Abijah the predecessor of Asa , mainteyned Gods true religion , and worship against idolatrous Israel both a by word and sword . So Asa found not his kingdome a false church , as K. Edw : & Q Elizab. found England : yet vsed he that great care for reformation , mentioned , 2 Chro. 14. & 15. and his son Iehoshaphat after him greater care both to reforme and teach the peo●le . 2 Chron. 17. Afterwards when abominations had ouerspread the land , H●zekiah laboured a godly reformation , and opening the dores of the Lords house , he b brought in the Priests and Leuites , not the Chemarins or Baals Priests , as the popish clergie ( which their own notes on Reu. 9.3 . acknowledge to be the Locusts of the bottomlesse pit ) were brought in or rather reteyned still in this church , as Mr Fox sheweth , Hezekiah sent c ouer all the land to conuert the people from idolatry ; who d laughed the messengers to scorne and mocked them howbeit e divers submitted themselues and came to Ierusalem ; and it was God that gaue e Iudah a hart to obey the King and rulers according to his word Neyther were any admitted to the Passeouer but such as had voluntarily yeilded , repented , and eyther sanctified themselues , or els ( being preuented through want of time ) were f healed ( or clensed ) of the Lord , at the Kings prayer . The other disobedient . Israelites God punished g by the sword and slauery of Asshur , because they would not obey the voyce of the Lord their God. Finally Iosijah h purged the land of idols & false worship , reduced his people vnto the true seruice of God ; which they with himselfe had i couenanted to walke in . These examples we acknowledge al Christian princes should folow , hauing equall power with these Kings of Iudah , to abolish all idolatry within their dominions ; yea and to punish obstinate idolaters , and not suffer any superstitious worship among their . subjects , but to procure their conuersion by the word , yet not to compell them to be members of the church , because they cannot giue them faith and repentance , which is the onely dore into k Christs kingdome , and cannot be opened to any but by l God alone . Which doctrine and practise these ministers ( if they would not learne out of holy writ ) mought haue seen set forth in their own book of Martyrs ; where when Ethelbert King of Kent was conuerted and Christened , and after him innumerable other daylie came and were adioyned to the church yet the King ( m sayth Mr Fox ) compelled none ; for he had learned that the faith and seruice of Christ , ought to be voluntary and not coacted . I acknowledge the Godly and gratious disposition and care of K. Ed. & Q Eliz. at the first for restoring of the Gospel ; to be worthy of purpetuall praise and memory : and the error that was , in reteyning the popish profane multitudes , the Antichristian clergie , the Romish worship worship turned into English , ( some few grosse things left out ; ) and th● other euils yet to be seen in the ecclesiasticall estate ; these I iudge are rather to be im●uted vnto the false clergie men , which were trusted too much in thes matters & dealt not according to the trust reposed in them but sought to inrich themselves with the spoyles of Bable and of Iericho the Bishopricks benefices , and other like Romish reuenues , rather the● for the build the howse of God , vpon the foundations of Sion . And this sin cleaueth fast vnto these priests , euen to this day ; who cannot endure to haue their portion spoken against , but thinke all a too little that they inioy ; when as for discharge of their functions in teaching the people , the most conscionable among themselues haue complayned to the Parliament b that the word of God is negligently , fantastically , profanely and ●●thenishly preached ; and all the land knoweth , that many ministers preach not at all . Whereas these ministers tel vs c of diuers congregations , that haue publikly professed their repentance for their former idolatry ; it is well if so it be ; & God giue them grace to goe forward in wel doing . But they tell vs not of any congregation that professeth repentance for their present idolatrie , or that renounceth the communion of the other impenitent and profane parishes : which they should also doe if they would be d the sonns and daughters of the Lord almighty . Nay we know that if any among them doe this , they ar excommunicated ipso facto out of the church of England , by force of their canons , anno 160● . Finally , whereas these Ministers doubt not to affirme , that the whole land in the parliament held in the first year of her Maiesties reigne , did enter into a solemn couenant with the Lord for renouncing of Popery , and receiuing the Gospel . First they set not downe what couenant the Parliament then made nor how they renounced Popery ; and therefore that is to be iudged of , when it shall more particularly be produced Secondly if then the Parliament house so did it is commendable in them but that the whole communialtie of the realm can be sayd to doe it with them , I vtterly deny . For howsoeuer all subiects are and ought to submit to the good ciuill lawes there enacted : and obedience may be inforced by e the sword , if any man resist : yet in cases of conscience euery man must liue by f his own faith ; men must g gladly receiue the word out of which all religion must be gathered all Kings and kingdomes h submitting vnto the lawes and ordinances in Chr●sts Testament if they would haue blessing and saluation by him . And as the honourable in the Parliament , could not be baptised for the commons ; so neyther could they repent or couenant with God for them : but the people must yeild their own willing consent , which they neuer did ; but were and still are compelled by law and penalty to be of the church and religion established . Which how well they haue brooked , let the testimonies of the ministers before alleged , and the irreligious walking of many thowsands euer since manifest . For now our land is a reprouch to the idolatrous Papists a for the multitude of Atheists and Machevillians that are therein . The second thing ( which these Ministers say ) we obiect against the whole body of their assemblies is , That they communicate together in a false and idolatrous outward worship of God , which is polluted with the writings of men , vid. with read stinted prayers , homilies , Catechismes and such like . To which they giue this answer . First it is euident by the word , that the church hath vsed and might lawfully vse in prayer , and Gods worship , a stinted and set forme , of words . And here ●hey allege Num. 6 23.24 . Deut 26.3.15 . Psal. 22. & 92.1 Chro. 16.8.36 . Luk. 11.2 . Very strange it is , that after so much time and consideration ; men that professe to be ministers of the Gospell , should giue such an answer . The thing obiected against their worship made of the inuention of the man of sinne , was in the first answer to Mr Gifford ( who shut his eyes , and would not see th' abominations of the same ) . b shewed in sundry particulars ; as the Romish fasts ; feasts and holy dayes , Comminations , Rogations , Purifications , &c. blasphemous & hereticall collects &c. which c after were more plainely refuted These and the like evils conteyned in their Leitourgie translated out of the Massebook , and imposed vpon their parishesr being by Mr Barrow blamed : now come these ministers and tel vs of Psalmes that Dauid made , of formes of blessing and prayer , that God and our Lord Christ prescribeth to his church ; and these must countenance and bear our all the popish trash that is in their seruice booke . But it would farr better haue fitted their estate and worship , c if they had cited the Popes in sted of the Patriarches , Prophets and Apostles , who were altogether vnacquainted with this Rom●sh seruice . For howsoeuer Dauid made many Psalmes , yet not he but Pope Damasus ( as writers say ) d ordeyned Glory be to the Father &c. to be added vnto them , and they to be sung by tournes , ( as the church of Engl. yet vseth ; ) and Pope Vitalian e to make vp the musick , brought in the Organs , Yea the foresayd Damasus f inioyned Hierom to make an order of seruice for churches , and appoynt what prayers should be sayd on euery day , and how many Psalmes &c. which being done , the Pope commanded al churches should vse that order and none other And a much like exploit was performed by the Archbishop of Cant. and his brethren in K. Edwards days ( as Mr Fox g reporteth ) for the seruice now vsed still in Engl. Agayne , for the particulars , who framed the Anthemes , Responds , Collects , h and Kyries , that are sayd at mattins ? neyther Prophet nor Apostle , but as i some say pope Gregorie I. and Pope Gelasius . And the same Pope Gregory put k the Pater noster into the masse . and commanded it to be sung ; and Pope Mar●us I would haue the Nicene Creed sung after ; the Gospell . Pope Anacletus thought it fit the priest and people should salute one another another in seruice time , and therefore appoynted the one to say . T●● Lord hear●th 〈◊〉 , and the other to answer , And with thy spirit . Pope 〈◊〉 put i● at the Sacrament O lamb of God that takest away the sinns of the w●rl● , h●u● mercy on vs ; Pope Symmachus●d added the hymme Glory be to G●d on high ; and the other Popes b●ought in their parts , and patched together the●r Letani● , & Leitourgie out of which the English seruicebook is taken , Likewise for the fasting dayes and holy festiu●ties , though the Apostles appoynted them not , yet the Popes did : Telesohorus d woulde haue the Lent to be fasted ; and Pope Calistus the fowr times in the year , or Imbring dayes . Pope Syluester 1. e added the Wednesdayes , Frydaye● and Satur●ayes weekly ; and Pope Innocen● 3. f put vnto the former almost all the Apostles eues . The Saincts and Angels were also beholding to these Reuerend fathers for hallowing their dayes . For generally all the Saincts found such fauour with Pope Boniface , g that they had not only a catholik holy day giuen them , called All-hallomes , but a famous Temple in Rome once ded●cated to all the D●uils and called Pantheon , was turned by this holy Father into the name of Maria rotunda . and consecrated to the hono●r of the B Virgin‘ and all martyrs Pope Felix 3 , i mad holy the day of the archangel Michael , h Boniface the 8. k shewed like honour to the 4 , Euangelists , and many other memorable gests are recorded of the Fathers of the See of Rome , whereof there is not a word in the Testament of Christ , that he or his disciples did euer the like . For they appoynted not priests apparall , long gownes , tippers 4. horned capps , as did Pope Zacharie ; nor a white linen surplice at seruice time , as did Pope Syluester 1. They hallowed no Temples or Churches as did P. Hyginus , nor Churchyards , as did P. Calistus 1 , Neyther ordeyned ringing of bells to call the people to diuine seruice , as did P. Sabinian . They appointed no Rood-loft to part the Chancel from the church , as did P. B●niface 2 , nor hallowed Font to Christen in ; or Godfathers and Godmothers at baptisme , as did P , Pius 1. and Hyginus . They commanded not the people to goe procession as did Pope Agapetus 1. nor appoynted any Bishoping or Confirmation of children , as did P , Clement . 1. with a great number more of like pranks vsed in the Romish seruice . which Christs Apostles knew not , as their writings shew . But the church of Engl. ( as next heir of Romes constitutions , ) reteyneth these reliques , obserueth these rites and a many moe ; for which the Papists doe insult and say that from their treasure house , the religion now established hath learned the forme of christening , Marrying , Churching of women , Visiting the sick , Burying : and sundry other lik● as the books translated out of theirs , doe declare . And now what sayth Gods law for all such things vnto his people ? I am ( sayth he ) l the Lord your God. After the doing of the land of Aegypt wherein ye dwel , shall ye not doe : and after the doing of the land of Canaan whether I will bring you ; shall ye not doe ; neyther walke in their ordinances . My iudgments shall ye doe ; and my ordinances shall ye keep , to walke in them : I am the Lord your God , Thus he forbad them not onely the worship of false Gods : but euen the imitation of idolatrous worship rites and ordinances in his seruice : wherfore he charged them againe , that they should not so much as inquire or a ask how the nations serued their Gods , that they might doe so to the Lord their God. But whatsoever he commanded them , b they should make heed to doe it ; putting nothing thereto , nor taking ought therfrom . Yet the Bishops and Priests of Engl. haue almost all things in their Lei●ourgie , according to the doings of that spiritual c Aegypt the Romish church wherein they dwelt , and haue imitated her worships‘ orders , ceremonies &c. reteyned her ministery , prelacy , courts , and canons : th● Latine being turned into English , and some grosse superfluities left ou● . And in defense of this worship , haue these godly ministers written , & Mr Bernard published their work : wherein if the reader see not a so●nd proof of the things that Mr Barrow ( whose errors they pretend to confute ) reproued ; he must impute it to the badnes of their cause , which wil scars admit of any colour from the booke of God. For ( besides the abuse of holy scriptures alleged to iustify these popish stratagems , ) how sound & diuine , ( or rather how fond and corrupt ) is the reasoning of these men , from Gods example and authority , vnto their own practise and power that because the Lord God gaue formes of blessing , prayer and psalmes to his people , ( as the scriptures which they cite doe shew ) therefore their Lords the Prelates may giue them also prescript words for blessing , prayer , and Psalmes &c. as is to be seen in their seruice book . Can we thinke that Ieroboam had so slender a reason for his goldē calues ? Why doe not these men also plead , that God gaue a law by Moses ? therefore ther may a law be giuen likewise by the Bishops : or , th' Apostles wrote a new Testament , therefore the Conuocation house may also write a Testament or Gospel ; & bring it into the church ? If the Prophets practise will bear them ovt in the one : I see no cause why it may not vphold them in the other . Wel , seing neyther Mr Gifford heretofore , nor these ministers now , can bring better defense for the work of their own hands wherewith they worship or rather prouoke the Lords I leaue them to consider of those lawes that euery where cry d ovt against and shew the punishment of idolatrie . Neyther is it needfull to keep the Reader with longer answer , seing Mr Barrow in the fornamed books , and Mr Greenwood in a peculiar treatise against these stinted prayers , and se● worship haue proued the vnlawfulnes of them by many reasons , which neyther these ministers nor any other haue yet taken away . And when they write agayn , let them not bring proofs for things that we deney not ; as that Daunds Psalmes may be sung in the church ; and that in our prayers we may vse or apply , the words that other holy men before vsed in their prayers , vpon like occasions ; both these we grant and practise : but let them proue , ( if they be able and their right hand can help them , that their own writetnn prayers , psalmes &c. may be read and sung in churches , church●● , as Gods true worship and then also they may command the clowdes to rayn no more , and may cause to cease the bottels of heauen . Like to their former plea , and maintenance of their seruice booke , is also their answer for Catechismes ; as for Homilies it seemes they leaue the the defense of them to the simple priests that read them , but Catechismes are vsed euen by the learned preachers , therefore somewhat they say for them , as a that the principles of religion were taught in the churches of old , Rō 2.20 , & 6 17.2 Tim , 1 13 , Heb. 5.12.13 , 14 and 6 , 1.2 . But these ministers are eyther simple or very deceitfull , so to turne away from the question For we neuer deneyed that the grounds and heads of Christian religion should be taught to the people ; far be it from vs : but this we say , the Prophets and Apostles are not found to prescribe set words for the minister to teach , or the people to answer being examined . And that therefore these Bishops and Priests are very presumptuous , that wil take vpon them to doe that which Christs Apostles neuer did in the churches . Agayn , that if those men of God had to done ; yet seing the writings of Prophets and Apostles are canonicall scriptures , and so are no mens writings now : it will by no meanes follow , that if they wrote catechismes to be vsed in the Church , therefore men may writ some for like vse now . Yea rather why are they not content with that which is already written in the scriptures , but run to erroneous catechismes of humane writers , such as is that authorized catechisme in the book of common prayer , commanded to be vsed in the church of England ? Hauing heard what these godly ministers say for their people , and seruice book ; I exspected somewhat also , for defense of their own minister , and the ecclesiasticall gouernment of their Lords the Prelates ; which were the other two ●eads of error excepted against , in the forenamed books . But in both these they are silent ; and reason there may be for it : for the inferior ministery hangs vpon the superior , the hierarchie , and now the godly ministers are in a great strayt , for eyther they must loose their ministery , and then what boots it to plead for the same , or els they must , ( though they be loth ) be buxome and submit to their Fathers the Bishops ; and when this is done , it may be we shall see some such defense of two later , as we haue already of the former . Mr Bernard himself hath begun fayrly ; for whereas a while since he was hot against the Bishops . he now cannot endure they should be b called Antichristian proud prelates or the like ; and thinks c it can neuer be proued , that the entrance into the ministery by the Prelates , is a false entrance . So it is not to be thought but his Ordinary and he will agree wel yenough . Wel howsoeuer it be , God ( I doubt not ) wil turne all things to his own glory and furtherance of his truth ; yea euen the writings of these aduersaries , shal be a meanes to stir men up vnto a consideration of their wayes , which God giue them grace for to doe , and to turne their feet into the pathes of life and peace that they may finde rest vnto their sowles . AN ANSWER TO Mr. Crashawes 4. questions propounded in his sermon preached at the Crosse Febr : 14 , 1607 , and printed 1608. Mr. Crashawe preaching vpon Ier. 51 , 11. We would haue cured Babel but she would not be healed &c. took occasion a to inueigh against such as haue separated from the Church of Engl. as from Babel , in to a couenant and communion ( as he sayth ) of their own deuising . To conuince this bitter ( as he calleth it ) and schismaticall separation , he asketh but 4. questions ; wherevnto if they can giue him satisfaction , he promiseth he wil be one of them . Now though this promise be not in his own power to performe , ( for b it is not in him that willeth , nor in him that runneth , but in God that sheweth mercy ; ) yet shall it not be amysse to labour for his satisfaction herein ; for who can tel , but there may be giuen him an vnderstanding ear , and tender hart , for to conuert that God may heal him if not , that his own writing may be a witnes , himselfe is one of those whome we would haue cured in Babel , but he would not be healed . I will not stand vpon his interpretation of the scripture treated of whether it be the direct and proper meaning of that place : but will come vnto the demands by him propounded . HIs first question consisting of many branches is summed vp by himselfe in this one : Wherein are we deadly and incurably wounded ? Your demaund being , as the particulars shew of the wounds of sin and corruption . I answer . First we deny not , but all your sins are curable , as we trust in the mercy of God , if you repent of them , and beleeu his promises : neyther haue we euer thought your wounds in this sense , to be c deadly or incurable . Secondly , the sinns that your church lieth in , & which if they be not repented of , and pardoned in the mercy of Christ , are d deadly and will destroy the sowl for euer ; haue heretofore by such as would haue cured you , been set before your eyes , in e large and ample treatises , shewing these capitall transgressions , 1 Your confuse people , 2 false worship , 3 antichristian hierarchie or church-gouernment , 4 and false ministery therefrom deriued : that strange it is , you should yet ask what deadly wounds you haue ; and it makes vs fear , your state is like his that sleepeth in the midds of the sea , in the top of the mast , & f sayth , they haue stricken me , but I was not sick , they haue beaten me but I knew it not . You haue also here a in this treatise arguments to proue that Christ is not the head , Mediator , Prophet , Priest & King of your church : which if it be so , no Christian can doubt , but your wounds in then selues are b deadly . Though this were yenough for Answer to your question in generall ; yet because the particulars which you further demaund , are stembling blocks vnto the weak ; I also wil labour to remoue them away . Q. What fundamentall wound is in our doctrine . A. This among others , that you teach and mainteyn both by word and practise , that all sorts of people , though profane and wicked are to be receiued into and reteyned in the church ; which is contrary to the foundation of the Gospel layd by God himselfe Gen. 3 15. That such is your doctrine , both your sermoris and printed books , and the estate of your church since the planting thereof , to this time : doe confirm . Q. What deadly corruption is in our discipline , such as e●●s out the hart , and life and being of a church . A. First , they which execute it , as the Prelates Commissaries , &c. are antichristian ; so iudged & proued long since by the reformed churchs by th● better son of your own ministers hertofore & now liuing & by others . Seconly ; in the executiō of it , the good ar consured & excommunicated : the wicked fauoured and tolerated . That the good are censured , appeareth by the late Canons of your church : for in them it is enacted c against such , as blame or resist any of your vngodly ceremonies , ordinances , wil worship , &c. in your Communion book ; book of ordering , Bishops Priests and Deacons , &c. that they shall be excommunicated ipso facto , and not be restored , vntill they repent and publickly reuoke such ( as you call them ) their wicked errors That the wicked are fauoured , and tolerated ; though experience may teach euery man , yet your own testimonies wil be most pregnant . Mr Bradshawe one of your fellow Ministers in his 11. Argument against the ceremonies of your church complayneth that the 〈◊〉 missions of your ceremonies make a minister by your law more subject to depriuatio● and suspension , then the commission of the sowlest crimes , euen dr●nke●●●s , blasphemie , grosse ignorance , and vncleannes . Which he proueth . by 〈◊〉 such ●i●e persons ( as he sayth that are ministery . Some that haue been 〈◊〉 to be carryed home in a wheel barrow . Some that comming home drunkē from the market town , haue been found sleeping under a hedge in their own filth . Some that knowing and consenting to their wiues filthines , that he might swear he knew no such matter by her since he maried her , maried her agayne the morning before he was to answer it vpon his oath . Deliuering the sacrament to a filthy woman , instead of Take , eat , sayd Turne thee , turne thee &c. To another that would take it in her hand , he put it in her mouth , and sayd Cob , Cob , or Daw , Daw , he knowes not whether . Dr Henry Parry , tels vs d of a 〈◊〉 of ●aterpillars , the very trash and riff raff of our nation &c. that haue like 〈◊〉 of idle and dissolute quallity , onely moued , thereto in a lazy speculation , layd wicked & sacrilegious hands on the Lords ark , taken his vndefiled testimonies in their defiled mouthes , disgraced , defaced and defamed the glory and Maiesty of di●ine rites and mysteries &c. they run like hungry companions with an eye onely to the flesh pots ; & so sel both themselues and their people for a morsel of bread and messe of pottage to the Diuill . He mentioneth also accursed and simonical patrons who haue sodered & simoned the walls of their houses with the very blood of sowl●s . some others among you speaking of that a miserable vulgus that wo●ful● crew that racked regiment of dunsticall and vnlettered Sir Iohns , which haue euen couered the land like the froggs of Aegypt , leading many thow sands with themselues into the ditch ; and ●he same not still graced & countenanced by the Prelat●s as being their creatures . And others complayn that b whol swarms of idle . scandalous , popish & , non-resident Ministers are tolerated euery where amongst you . Your selfe ( Mr Crashawe ) in this very sermon tel in of c little petty Babylons , namely incurable sinns among you 1. That great sacrilege and church robbing as you call it committed by Impropriations , in which case ( you affirme ) at this day almost halfe of the kingdome is , wherby it comes to passe that an ignorant and vnpreaching ministery is set ouer a great part of your people which is the sourse and fountayn of all other euils in your church . 2. The vngodly players enterludes . so rise in the nations ; which you call a bellish deuise , the Diuils own recreation to mock at holy things , by him deliuered to the heathen , from them to the Papists , and from them to you , And these ( you say ) bring religion and holy things vpon the stage And hypocrisie a child of hel must bear the names of two churches of God Nicholas S. Antlings , Simon , S. Mary●veries : which churches by these miscrean●s are thus dishonoured ( you say ) not on the stage onely , but euen in print . To this you add , ●heir continuall profannesse on their phrases , and sometime Atheisme and blasphemy ; their continuall profanening of the Sabbath , which generally in the country is their play day , and oftentimes Gods diuine seruice hindred , or cut shorter , to make room and giue time for the Diuils seruice . Many other like testimonies might I allege frō your own mouthes of exceeding impiety openly practised , not by the people onely , but by the Priests and Clergie and how doth your discipline heal these corruptions ; when by your own grant , such caitiffs are graced and countenanced by the prelates , when your law punisheth the conscionable ministers , more then such ; as your selfe d say of your petty Babilon of Impropriations . this deep wound was once curable yenough &c. but now ( alas ) how incurable it is , he obserues but little that sees not . And vnlesse the K. Maiesty vouchsafe to take the matter into his hands , otherweise it is incurable . Agayn you say e of that horible abuse of the Sabbath &c. that est is hath been complayned of , and some haue endeuoured to heal it , but it is 〈◊〉 of Babylon that will not be healed , but rather it creps 〈◊〉 a 〈◊〉 though the whole state from the foot to the head . and if you would yet haue more add herevnto Mr Iacobs testimony , ( who hath so manfully stood for your church , ) The right and true discipline ecclesiasticall ( sayth he ) in ●ch proper visible church , is one mayn part of the ordinary meanes of saluation appoynted by God for euery sowl , and this we in England vtterly want . Now let the reader iudge , whether there be not deadly corruption in your discipline , which euen in a true church , would soon eat out ( if it wer not healed ) the hart and life and being of a church , according to your demaund . But you proceed and ask vs. Q. What book of Canonicall scripture receiue we not ? what hold ▪ we for Canonicall : that is not . A. What book of Canonicall scripture receiued not the idolatrous Is●elites ? what held they for Canonicall that was not ? The like I ask for the Arians , Anabaptists and sundry other heretikes of these times and shall these , or any of them be therfore true churches ? Agayn in your own church , there is read for holy scripture , erroneous books and lying stories , as Tobie , Iudith and other Apocrypha . Your Homilies a citing th●̄ , call them holy scripture , and say the holy Ghost speaketh so in the scriptures : & the chiefest ministers of your church , sometimes preach and take texts out of them . If this be not to hold them canonicall , I know not what you count canonicall . Q. What sacrament that Christ ordeyned doe we want ? and what haue we more then Christ ordeyned ? A. What sacrament wanted Ieroboam the son of Nebat ? what had he more then God ordeyned ? Or the Anabaptists at this day ? Yet if one would stand with you he might by your Communion book proue Confirmation to be a sacrament : but who ordeyned it , I cannot tel , vnlesse Pope Clement . Agayn , Mr Bradshaw a man of your own church and profession , b hath proued against you in print that your Crosse in baptisme , ring in mariage , surplice &c. are sacraments in your church , and not of diuine institution . Q. What article of faith deny we ? or what hold we for an article of faith this is not ? A. Suppose that the Papists , should ask you such a question , what would you answer ? For all the Creeds that are in your communion book ; are they not with euery article , neyther more nor lesse in the masse book and other popish pamphlets ? The Papists and you both confesse Christ in words , both deny him in practise Q. What fundamentall heresie doth our doctrine maintayn ? A. The vnlawfull commixture of the children of God and children of the Diuell , in one church and communion , is a fundamentall heresie being stifly mainteyned . All the scritures condemne it ; all wel reformed churches avoyd it , nature it selfe teacheth to abhorr it : yet in such profane communion your church abiderh ; and you wil not endure to b●●r of a separation . Q. What haue we in our church that ouerthrowes the being of a church ? A. A popish ▪ Clergie , and Laitie . Q. What is necessarily required to make a church that wee doe want ? A. You want both matter and forme of a true church , namely a people called of God , separated from the world , and vnited with Christ and one with another , according to the rules of his eternall Testament . Q. I will end as I began , wherein are we deadly and incurably wounded ? A. The sinns before mentioned , are deadly wounds of Satan ; the onely cure is by repentance and faith in Christ Iesus . ●ut as yet you be farr from cure , for loe you make questions of your diseases ; and will not beleeue that you are sick , Herevpon you refus● all salues and medicines ; and will neither haue physician nor chirurgian to meddle with your sores . If any Leech come with a curing a tong●e . and words that be leaues of the tree of life , which serue b to heal the nations with , if he offer to touch the Egyptian vlcers that appeare in your worship , church-government , ministerie , ceremonies , &c. he is presently thrust out of dores ; and if he dare but affirme these or any of these to be disceases and botches in your body , sinns against God , or repugnant to his word ; he is c excommunicated ipso facto , by the decrees of the whole representatiue church of England . And are you willing now to be healed ? Nay if any among you , not medling with the publike estate of your church , but feeling or fearing his own particular sowl sicknes , doe resort to a physician ( whose receipts are not after the common sort , ) for aduise about his health , or of friendship and acquaintance to see him : he is subiect to the censure and thunderbolt of your church . Witnesse the late practise in Norwich ; where certayn citizens were excommunicated for resorting vnto and praying with Mr Robinson a man worthily reverenced of all the city for the graces of God in him as your selfe also I suppose will acknowledge , ) and to whome the cure and charge of their sowles , was ere while committed . Would any vnmercifull man haue dealt so with his bondslaue in a case of bodily sicknes ? But hereby all may see what small hope there is of Curing the Kanker of your church . THe second question is , Are they ( themselues ) healed ? then where were they healed ? where were they called ? where were they regenerate and begotten to Christ ? was it not in the womb of this our church , and by means of the immortall seed of Gods word that is dayly sown in our church , a holy church , a church of God , where in ordinarily men are called and brought to God. The winde bloweth where it will , and we heare the sound thereof but know not whence it cometh and whether it goeth : c so is every one that is b●rne of the spirit . To your demaund then I answer ; we wer● c●ll●● being in B●●ylon , your Church I meane , which restreyneth the 〈◊〉 by vnri●hteousnes ; there was our regeneration begun Where we fa● in darknes and in the shadow of death ; the light of God appeared ▪ and 〈◊〉 vs l●fe . If you yet inquire how this was , I refer you to 〈…〉 brou●ht light out of darknes , and daylie a bringeth forth the 〈…〉 treas●re ; and his wayes are past finding out : for as I b kn●w 〈◊〉 t●e way of the winde , nor how the bones doe grow in the womb of her that is with childe , so know I not the work of God , that worketh all . If you dema●nd of the means ; it was doubtlesse the word and spirit of the Lord , without which there is no calling , no regeneration . Now where you ask , how then we can deny that to be a true church , wher●in 〈◊〉 men are called and brough to God ? I answer ; first , you take vp more th●n we lay down when you say ●rdinarily : for the ordinary and common fruit of the word among you , is through your own corrupt handling and hearing of it , euell and not good , the many walke the broad way , and Gods calling is like , to that which the Prophet sayth c one of a city and two of a tribe , in res●ect of the worldly multitudes . Secondly , all the Saincts are not begotten vnto Christ in the wombe of a true particular church for when the Apostle preached among d Pagans & conuerted many , I would know in the womb of what church they were begotten ? they were first conuerted vnto Christ , before euer they were in any other church , then that Ierusalem which is aboue , & e the mother of all the elect . Let vs come to later times ; your selues when you began to be a church of protestants , in what particular womb were your people begotten ? I suppose if in any , it was in the womb of your mother church of Rome , where they had both receiued Baptisme the seal of regeneration , and been catechised in Christian religion : and then look how your selues can deny that to be a true church , or be free of vnthankfulnes towards her that bare you . But you prosecute your cause against vs , and would driue vs eyther to say , there is indeed a true ministery of the word among you . but it is not powrfull to any but our selues ; or els that we were not called in your church , but since we left you . To the first I answer ; there is no necessity that we must grant a true ministery ; for first we hold that the true word may be put in f Balaamites mouthes , and a false ministery may through Gods wondrous grace , beget faith in his elect : if you say otherweise you will shake the foundation of your English church , layd by Aust●● the monk Pope Gregories Apostle ; and damn all your late fathers vnder the Roman Clergie . Secondly , we ●ie not the grace of God in the true church to the ministers lips : knowing that men by other meanes are often conuerted to the Lord. And if your ministers in England hold that men cannot be begotten to Christ among them , but by their preaching ; you may take vp your Letanie ( which causlesse you vse for vs ) and say from this horible and bellish pride , good Lord deliuer them . As they cannot restreyn the winde from blowing : so much lesse the spirit of God from breathing , out of other places then ministers mouthes . To the second also I answer ; that it is one thing to be called in your church , as you speake ; and another thing to be called by your church or ministery , as I thinke you mean. It is written Reu. 18.4 . Goe out of her my people . you see here Gods people were in Babylon , and are called ovt of the same , not by Babel it selfe , or any minister of it , buy by a voyce from heauen . So we might be called in your church . though not by the same . And thus we haue not bard our selues from pleading against you , as you would bear men in hand : neyther yet shew you of whom or wher you had that which you say we all stoutly answer and stifly stand to it , namely that we leau your church meerly & only out of conscience &c. We haue a better ground if you would receiue it , euen the Law of the Lord that so commandeth both vs and our consciences . Conscience is the blinde Papists common plea : but we know that mans conscience is as much a defiled as any other part or power of his sowl or body ; and therefore it may be no rule of our actions , but the law of God onely , which is b pure , perfect , and vndefiled . Yet you wil needs proceed and say , then we had conscience before we left you . I answer yea , or els we would not haue left you . Thinke you that your predecessors had no conscience when they left the Popish church ? Then where ( say you of us , and minde whether the Papists will not say as much of you where ) came they to that conscience and care of their saluation but in our church ? You are answered before , we had it in your church , as Gods people had in Babylon . But that ( I suppose ) will not satisfie you , but it was you will say , by your church and ministerie . Therefore I distinguish and consider of conscience in generall and in particular General lie , when men so farr as they are taught and see , doe walke carefullie : & this I confesse we had through Gods grace & by means of your church : this also I acknowledge many among you haue , walking conscionably so farr as they see and know . The same I am perswaded also of many Papists and other misbeleeuers . But as a conscionable Papist or Anabaptist , when a further light of the Gospel ariseth vnto him , must leaue that church , wherein his conscience was so farr informed , because it is not the true church of God : so must a conscionable Protestant doe with your church , when God giueth him to see the false estate wherein you stand although you worke many good effects in a mans hart and conscience . Particularly a good conscience is to be considered in this or that particular action , as for example in this particular of our separation ; and so we had not this good conscience from or by your church or ministenistery ; for you thought to corrupt our consciences , and keep vs still in Babylon ; we had not , I say , this good conscien●e by your meanes , vnles●e it be by accident and against your wils , and so no thanke vnto you , as he that would haue kild his enemie , and vnawares cured him of an impostume : thus indeed many of vs haue been brought to this good co●science of separation . For whereas heretofore many of your ministers vnawares haue discouered the vnlawfulnes of the prelacie , priesthood , leitourgie and other enormities of your church : wee haue herevpon thought , how it could be the church of Christ , which thus lay vnder Antichrist . and pressing you with your own doctrines we haue found that you cannot but eyther goe from that wh●ch before you taught : or el● yeeld vs our separation , which you so earnestly condemn . Of which thing there is a before spoken in this treatise . THe third question is ; How haue th●y sought and sufficiently endeauoured our healing ? and til they haue done all that possible can be done for our healing , how dare they forsake vs ? I answer , we haue sought your healing , euen as by your own doctrin the faithfull Iewes sought the cure of Babel ; and as you selues haue so●ght the healing of R●me . The meanes which the Iewes and your selues haue vsed to cure Babel , you shew in b your sermon to be three Instruction , example , pr●yer . By instruction , you say , laying op●n their errors , discouering their impieties , and l●ying before them the excellency of true religion . Thus ( say I , ) haue we done with you witnesse ( besides our speeches and conferences ) the many books of this argument , which are publised in print . 2 By example ( you say ) practising their own religion ●uen before their very faces , nor fearing their scornes and rebukes &c. And to ( say I ) haue we practised our religion amongst you and before your faces not fearing your scornes and rebukes . And for proof hereof , not one man ( as Daniel in Babel ) hath been taken in prayer , but very many ●f vs haue been apprehended sundry times , when we were praying and excercising in the word of God ; and from our publick meetings haue been caried to your loathsome gaoles and prisons , and there deteyned many a day , till some were car●ed out vpon the Bere vnto their graues , some caried to the tree and executed . Which ( to vse your own words ) had been sufficient to haue driuen you into deeper and better considerations , had you not been incurable ; and it is to be hoped that the sight hereof , hath done good on some of you . 3. Thirdly they endeauoured ( you , say ) to heal them by their prayers , praying continually and desiring God to heal them . Thus also haue we endeauoured to heal you alwayes mentioning you in our prayers , that God would vouchsafe yo● mercy : and this we professe and promise to doe for you still , ( howsoeuer you reward vs for it , ) so long as we liue on earth . Thus haue we dealt with you , according to all the duties that your selfe haue shewed both from the Iewes practise . and from your own . For whereas you allege a a fourth thing that your selues haue done , namely , by devising and enacting good and wholsom lawes against their errors , superstitions , impieties &c. seing this cannot be done by subiects or priuate men , but onely where a common weal and magistracie is established ; and so neyther was nor could be done by the Iewes in Babel , nor by vs in Engl : I suppose you will not impute this as want to Duty vnto vs , which if we had attempted to doe , mought iustly haue been esteemed rebellion in vs , and so our suffrings should haue been as malefactors . Whereas then we haue vsed all lawfull meanes to cure you that we could , as your selfe haue layd them down before vs - I hope you will be satisfyed , or if not , yet any indifferent reader will thinke you are sufficiently answered . THe 4. and last demand is , If they Will needs leaue our church whether will they goe ? To leaue one thing for another no better , is seely : but for a ●orse ●s folly and madnes . &c. I answer , We haue left Babylon , for to come vnto Sion : we forsooke your confused assemblies which consist of all sorts of people and an vnlawfull mixture with the profane and wicked that we might haue communion with the people of the Lord , that willingly and gladly professe to beleeue the gospel and walke in it . Now where you vrge vs to ioyne to some other church in other countries . first you passe the bounds of your text , from whence you can gath●r no such doctrine ; for the Iewes forsaking Babel , ioyned not to any other nation or church then their own . Secondly , it is also contrary to your own practise , who when you first left Poperie in K. Edwards daie● and Q. Eliz. ioyned not your selues to any forreyn church ; but one to another among your selves . And where you tel vs of the approbation of other churches , and b quote their Harmony of Confessions ; I answer , that book was set out long after your separation from Rome , and communion among your selues : besides also how farr they approue of you , is before in this treatise considered of Pag. 10. Thirdly we could not ioyne to any of those forreyn churches , becaus● We vnderstood not their languages nor they ours , and therefore vnlesse we would haue builded a new Babel , with strange tongues , we must ioyne into communion among our selues . Thus haue I answered your 4. demaunds : and for your further satisfaction , if it may be , will yet giue you a view of your own dealings with vs , and the Babylonians dealing with the Iewes of old , as they are collected by your selfe in you sermoon . They of Babel obiected ( as you a say ) that their own religion was general and vniuersall ouer the world , and the Iewes , but in a corner : and agayn b they say Look into the world at this day , and see if any nation of all that came from all the ● sonns of N●ah be of your religion : all that came of Cham are of ours : all that came of Iaphet are of ours , and all that came of Sem , but onely your selues . Your selfe c say vnto vs , in these like words , Look ouer all Christendome , and you shall not finde a Church that condemneth ours , or any that is not of our religion &c. the churches of the Low countries , are of o●r confession , the Ch : of France , the church of Geneua , the church of Scotland , the Cantons of Switzerland . the stats and Princes of Germany , they are all of our confession . Whither then will you goe but vnto your corners and conventicles &c. The like things are obiected to vs also by other of your ministers , as before in this trea●ise may be seen pag. 9. The Babylonians d are by you feigned to ha●e sayd vnto Israel , Doth not our religion prosper and flourish , and is not yours condemned by the consent of all the world ? Your ministerse say for England against vs , d God hath witnessed his loue and approbation to our church by many vectories and deliuerances , long continuance of the Gospell , prayers , heard &c. And the Churches and godly learned persons that euer heard of your separation did not approue of it . e See also Mr Bernards book pag. 33. You ( f. sayd the babylonians to Israel ) for holding your religion are iustly ouerthrown and conqu●red by u● ' Mr Penry , Barrow and Greenwood g say your ministers to vs ) were hanged , Mr Iohnsons and the rest banished , by Christian magistrats professing and mainteyning the Gospel of Christ. Alas poor men ( sayd the Babylonians ) for one learned Rabbine that your haue , haue not we twentie ? are not the Caldeans the famoust learned men in the world ? Of vs your ministers say , h setting aside one or two at most , there is neuer a minister amongst th●m th●t vnderstandeth the summe of religion and grounds of the Catechisme : and further they vnderstand not any tongue saue only English & wher thē is their knowledg . againe an i other vp braydeth vs by the preaching disputing and printing of many excellent works and volumes published of all sorts ( by the ministers of England ) : which none of vs is any thing haue euer yet atteyned . The Babylonians k sayd to Israel , During the time that you haue had your Kings and Priests , shew one nation by you conuerted , or one that came and ioyned with you of all that time . Hardly ( say your ministers to vs ) can you shew any one person conuerted by your ministery , from papistry athisme or other opē wickednes ; as by Gods blessing multitudes haue been by ours . Thus we see how you and your ministers imitate Bab●l , as if they had been set to scool by Nebuchadnezar , n to get l the learning and tongue of the Chaldeans ; o wherein how they haue profited , let the reader iudge ; as also whither we may not apply against you , your own words , that you please your selues in such like carnall arguments and fleshly conceyts , a● papist in their popery , and other p●●fane men in their carnallity , did heretofore , and doe at this day . Of these things as I haue laboured to giue you notice ; so I desire God to giue you repentance , and to heal all your deadly wounds : least that come vpon you which is foretold by the Prophet , a I will render vnto Babel , and to all the inhabitants of the Chaldeans , all their euill that they haue done in Sion ; in your sight , saith the Lord. My people goe out of the midds of her ; and deliuer ye every man his sowl from the feirce wrath of the Lord. Ier. 51.45 . Goe out of her my people , that ye be not partakers in her sinns , and that ye receiue not of her plagues , Reu. 18.4 . FINIS . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A26579-e160 a Kellisons Suruey . 2. book 1. chapt· b Mr Giffords dialogue bteweē a pap . & a pro● , f , 19. b , c Calui●● opusc . Response . ad ve●s . quend Mediator . d K●llisons Sur. 1 book 2. chap. e See after in this treatise . pag. 49 f pag. 13. a pag. 135. b Mr Crashawes ser. pag. 27. c ibid. p. 28 d Caluin . Respons . ad versiple . e Gregory Martin Campion· Kellisō . &c f D. Whi●g defen . of ans to admon : in the gen . tab : S. g Mr Ios. Nichols h plea of the innocēt pag , 33.34 . a Ezek. 23.45 . b Rev , 17 , 16. See after in this book p 122. anno 1562 e In the 123 pag of his book . a Deut , 3● . 31 , Notes for div A26579-e2310 a Sermon on Rom. 12.6 . pag 65 66. b Playn deccla of eccles desc , pag , 72. c Di●l of the stryfe of your ▪ Church page . 99 a 1 adm●●o the Par. in the preface . b in the sam admonitiō . c 1 admon . pag. 16. d ibid. 14. e Mal. 1 8 f Psa 16.4 . g Reu 17 . ● h verse . 4. i 2 Cor. 3.17 k 1. admon . page . 15. l Demonst. in the pref . m T●ble of Artic , by diuin . Reader in Cam. n ibedem , o 1. admon . page . 2. Exo. 14.5.9 . a Gen 1 & 2 b Reu 17. ● c one & th● same word is by figure of speech . 〈◊〉 for hearing & r●porting . Rom 10. a 2 admon . to the Parl , f. 16. a Psa. 20.7 b Bellarmin de notu eccl Psa. 62.9 . a 1 Admon ●o the Parl. a Deccōs by interpr●tation ar ministers 1 〈◊〉 3.5 . b Defēnc of eclesiastical disci , p. 102. c 1 admo to the Parlia . d defence of godly minis : against bridges . p. 12 3. e Sermon . on Rom. 12 p 34. a Leu. 19 , 17. a 1 admo 2.3.4 . a form & manner of consecrating Bishops , priests and Deacons . b ibidem , a 2 Kin. 1● 33.41 . b ver . 34. c Gal. 5 , 19 20. d Num 16.7 a Ioh. 3.8 . Reu. 7.1 . b If●· 60 . 2● a Epistle before the De monst . b Psa. 19.12 . a Symma●●● in Epist. pr● sacr . patrū b Caeciliu ; Ar●eb lib 8 c Gen 6. 1 Pe 3.19.20 . 2 Pet , 2.5 . a Psal. 73.7 b Iob 21.16 c Cyril . cōtra Iul. lib. 7 s. d Fast 5 aepe Iouē vids quum iam sua mittere vellet fulins 〈…〉 susti●●isse 〈…〉 e Psa 66.18 19 116.1 2.1 . Iob 5 . 1● . a Pro 25 , 14 b 1 admon , to Parl , pag 33 c ibid. p 4. d Supplication to the Parl. p , 67. e Luk 12.51 : 52 , Mat. 12.6 Ren 11.19 * Psa 18.14 . † Gen 4.16 & 6.2 . ” Gen 9.25 26. & . cha , 11. * Gen 19 ‡ Gen. 12. † Ex , 4 &c ” Isa 48.20 † Hos. ● . 15 * Act 2 40 41. 2 Cor , 6 14.17 . † Reu. 18 : 4 * Num 11.1 ‡ Num. 16 32 33. ” Num 21.6 † Nū 25.9 * Num. 14.45 . ‡ Ex 32 , 27 ” Nū 20.12 † Ex 12 , 37 * Num. 26 64 , 65 , ‡ 2 Tim. 4 10. ” Mat. 27.24 . * Reu. 1.9 . ‡ Mar 3 17 ” Act 4.11 . † Luk ●3 . 33 * Gen. 37. ‡ 1 Kin. 11 30.31 37.40 . ” 2 Chro. 14 23 &c. † 2 , Chro 16 7.10 . * Ioh. 6.66.67 . (a) Gen. 4. b Gen. 9. c Ge 27. etc d Ge 37 &c , e Exo , 32. Num , 20. f Num , 6 g Num 12 h Iudg. 8. i Iudg , 9. k Iudg. 11 l Iud. 20 &c. m 1 Sam 18 &c. n 2 Sam , 15 &c. o 1 Kin 12 &c. p Act 23.7 &c. q Luk , 22.24 . r 1 Cor 1 & ● Galat. Philip . 3 Iohn . &c. s Bellarm , de not , eccles●● 10. t 1 Cor. 11.18 , 19. Num. 2● . 1 3. Iudg 19 22. & . Psa. 106.14 28 36. Iudg. 2 13. * 1 Cor 10.14 1 Ioh 4 , 21. ‡ Deu 30 , 11 12.13.14 . Rom. 10 , 8 a 1. Cor 12 , 2 b Ora● , Sibil l. 2 in princip . c Num , 23 & . 24. † 1 Sam 19 20 ●4 . e 1 Cori ● , 30 f ver . 32. g ver . 34. h Rom 14.1 i ver . 22 k ver . 30 , l ver . 34. m ver . 29 n ver , 30. 1 Kin 22.6 b ver 17.18 c uerse . 24. d 1 Pet 4.11 Act 18·11 . e Hab. 2. f Isa 1.4.10.21.23 . & . 26.10.11 . Mic , 3 : 9.10 , 11 & ● . Gen. ● . † 2 Thes , 2 10.11.12 . ‡ 1 Tim 4.1.2 . Notes for div A26579-e11690 a Ex , 20 , b form of cōsecrat . Bishops and Priests &c a 2 Cor. 6.14.15 , b 1 Tim ● . 15 . Heb. 8.5 . c Hag. 1.4 &c. a Rō 6.16 b Exod. 31 c Zac 1.20 21. d Supplication . pag 67 a 1 admo . p. 24. b 2 admon to the. Parl pag. 6.7 . c 1 Cor , 3 , 9 Eph. 2.20 . a Eph 1.1 . b Eph 2.19 c verse , 21. d 1 Sam 15.32 . e Ex. 26 15 f Heb. 3.2 . a Prov. 30.18 , 19 , 20. b Ie , 3.2 , c Hos 2.2 . d Tit. 1.16 Iam. 2.18.26 . e Gē 35.29 a Iohn 3.29 b Iohn 15 , 1 c Psa , 80 , 8. d ver 2.3 . e ver . 5 , f Deu 32·23 g Reu , 11 , 8 h Ioh 17 , 20 21. i ver , 9 , a ve 14 , 16 , b Ier 31.32 c Exo , 19. Deut , 5.3.22 . & . 29.10.11.12 , a Mar 16.25 Ep 4 , 11 b Act. 14 8 11.14 . &c c Act. 18 , 6 10 . 1● i 1 Co 12.2 . d Act. 17 . 2●.32.34 a A●t , 19.9 b Tit , 1 , 5 , c Phil. 1.1 d Act. 20.17.28 1 Pe ● , 1.2 . e 1 Cor 4.15 f 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 h Act. 19.32.39 g 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a 2 Cor. 6 , 14.7 . b Pap. supto the K. reason of relig . 22.20 . c Col , 1 , 5 , d Alcoran , ●hap 18 & 19. e Rui● ● * uer , 5. Iob. 15 , 14 ‡ 〈◊〉 ● . 22 * Iudg. 19 ●2 , & ▪ ‡ 1 Kin : 12 28 , 29.30 . Eccl. 4 , 17 , * Luk. 13 , 3 5 , ‡ Psa , 68 , 21 , ” Ma● , 7.6 † Heb. 6 , 1 * so after more plainly Act 1 , 13 14.19 , 26 , * pag. 2.3 . answer , to Mr Hild Mr , Iak . * August cētra Maxim l. 3 c. 14 Nec ego nicenā Sinodū tibi , nec tu mihi Arimi nemsē debes ●bijcere scriptuarum authoritatibus res &c. ‡ Panormitā de electio et elect Potest . ● . signis : * ver 1 ‡ ver , 2. ” 2 Chr , 15 3 , † Hos. 2 , 4. * Rom 7 15 ‡ 1 Ioh 3.9 . ” pag. 39 , † Rom. 10.15 . * ver , 6. ‡ Ioh 14 . 1●· & 15.10 * Ga , 5 , ●9 20. ●1 . ‡ 1 Cor. 5 , * 1 Cor , 10 , 15. ‡ 1 Ioh 4 1. ” Hab , 2.5 † Gal. 6.5 . Notes for div A26579-e17600 a Ma 11.20 21 , b Isa , 49 , 4. c Rom 10.21 a Exo. 5 , &c. b 2 Kin , 1.7 13 , 14 2 adm●n to the Parliā , ● 16. ‡ Constitut & Canons eccl●siast . 1603. * Canon . 4 , Can. 6. Can. 7. Can. 8 , a Eze 13 4 b Eze 13.7 c vers 8. a Is , 22 , 20 2● 22 , b Book of orders . c Ioh 20.22 23 , d 2 Th● , 2.4 , e Mat. 7 : f See a catalogue of thē in answ . to Mr Iac. pa 158 , &c : g E●e 13.10 &c : a ver· 14. b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 c Ioh. 18 , d 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 e Mat. 2 , 6 Reu , 2.7 . a Psal 106.35.36 , b Isa 15.19 a Reu 18.4 b 1 Chr , 4.23 . c Ier. 51 , 6 , d ver ▪ 9 , 10 e there is a character imprinted by the Bishops ordination concil trident Ses , 23 Can , 4. a D●ut . 5.22 . b Deut. 33.4 . c Exod. 16.1 . Psal. 111.1 . d Ma● 16 , 18 , Act. 7 38. e Iam , 2 , 2 , and in th● greek of the old Test. often , Deut. 5.22 , Exod , 16 3 , &c. f Luk. 7.5 . Act , 18 , 7. g Gen. 35.11 , Ier. 50.9 . (h) Gen 48 , 4 , Ezek , 23 , 24. i Exod. 12.6 . k 1 Chro. 13.1 , 2 , ● ; 5. and 29.1.6 . 1 : Chro , 1.2 3. l 2. Chron 20.4.5 . m 2. Chron. 30.10.13.25 . n Ezra . 10.1 . o Gen. 49.6 . p Ezek. 27.27 . and 32.22 . and 38 4.7 . &c. q Eph. 5.23 , &c. Heb 12.23 , (r) 1. Cor. 1 , 2. s Rom. 16 , 5 , 1 Cor. 16.19 , Colos , 4 , 15 , t 2 Chron , 1 , 3 , &c , u 1 , Sam , 19 , 20 , x Psal , 107.32 , y Eze. 32 , 3. Act. 19 , 32 , 39 , 41 , z Psal. 26 5. a Rom. 1.25 b Alkoran ; Azoar . 4. c Azoar . 2. & . 4 & , 11. d Az●ar , 12. &c , e Azoar . 19 : 20. f N●he , 13.1 1 Tim. 3.5 , 14 , g 1 Cor , 1 2. Psal , 89 , 5. & 149.1 , (h) Psal. 26.5 i Re● , 2 , 9. k 1 Pet , 2 , 9 , l 2 Th●s , ● , 14 , m Ioh , 17 , 6 , 9 , 14. and. 15 , 19 , n 1 Cor. 1 , 9 , o Eph , ● . 21.22 . p 1 Pet , 2 9. q Eph , 4●1 Heb. 9.15 , r Rom : 9.11 , 12 , 24. S●ng . 1.3 , s Iob. 6 : 44 : (t) 2 Tim. 1 : 9 (u) Act. 2.47 . x 2 Chro. 30.6 10.12 . Rom. 8 30. z 2 Thes. 2 14. a 2 Cor. 5.19 . (b) Act. 5.20 (c) Iob. 20.31 . d Nehem. 9.20 . 1 Cor. 2 10 . 1● . e Iob. 6 45. f Iob ●5 . 1 . ● , & 17 , 6 , 9. g I●h . 12.31 , h Act. 26 : 18 , i 1 Ioh. 3.10 . k Exod. 34 15 , Prou. 15.8 . Psal 16.4 . E●h . 5 , 11 , 2 Cor. 6.17 . l 1 Ioh 2.16 . m Rom 7.15 . Iude. 23. n Gal. 6 , 14. o Mat. 18 , 3. p Ioh 3.3 , q 1. Cor. 1.9 . r Deut , 18.15 , 18. s Act. 3.22.26 . Mat. 5 , 2 , & ● , t Ioh , 13 , 20. [u] Col , 2.3 . x Mat. 17 , 5. y Iohn 3.13 . & . 6.68 Reu 5.1 , 5 z Act , 3 23. a Psal , 147 19 , 20 Isa. 59 , 21. Rom 15.4 . b Iam. 1.21 . c 1 Ioh , 2.20.27 . d Ep 4.8.11 . 1 Cor. 12 , 28. e Isa. 43 10. f 2 Cor. 4 , 13. g Mat , 28 , 20 h Phil , 3.16 , i Act. 8.4 , k 1 Thes. 5 , 11. l Heb. 10.24 . m Rom. 15 , 14 , n Leu. 19 , 17. o Luk. 17 , 3. p 1 Thes 4.18 r 1. Pet , 4.11 . q Col. 3.16 s Heb , 4 , 14 , 20 , ‡ Rom. ● , 19 , t Heb , 10.5 , 10 , u 1 Ioh , 1 , 7. x Rom , 5.10 , y Heb. ● , 25 , ●nd 9.24 . 〈◊〉 13.15 , Reu , 8.3 4. z Isa 53 5. Rom. 5.8.10 a 1 Pet. 2.5 . b Rom. 12.1 . c Col 3.5 . d Gal 5.24 , e Psal. 51 , 17 , f Heb. 13.15 . g, Eph. 6.18 . h Heb. 13.16 . i 2. Tim. 2.3.9 , k Heb. 12.4 , 2. Tim 4.6 . l Mat. 2 , 6. m Ioh 12 15. n 1 Cor. 15 , 2. o Isa 33 , 22. p Mat. 28 , 20 , q Psal. 72. r Ioh. 10 , 28 & 1● . 33 , Reu. 19 11.21 . a Rom 6 14 , b 1 Ioh , 5 , 18. Rom. 16 , 20. c 1 , I●h 5 , 4 d 1. Cor. 7 23 , e 1 , Cor. 3 2● . f 1 Pet. 5 , 8.9 . g Eph 6 12. h Iob. 11 19 & 16.33 . i 1 Pet , 2.11 . k Rom. 8 , 38 , 39 , l Reu. 1 6. m Reu 5 , 10 , n 2. Ti● . 2 12. I●h . 17.24 1 , Th●s . 4.17 o, ●lat . 28.19 . Rom , 16 , 26. p Phil , 3 9 , q Rom , 5.19 , r 1 I●h . 1 , 7 , s Gal , 3 , 13 , t Rom. 5 , 10 , u Gal. 3 , 9.14 , x Rom , 3.25 , 30. and 4.4 , 25. y Rom. 6 , 5. z vers , 6 , a vers , 4. b Eph. 4.22 , 24. Col. 3.10 . c Eph. 2 , 21. Rom , 12 , 4 , 5. d 1 Cor. 12.4 , 8 , 9 , 11 , 12.13 . Eph. 4.4 5 , 15.16 . a Eph , 3 , 15 , b, 1 Pet. 5 , 9 , c, Eph , 4 , 5. d, 1 Cor. 8 , 6 , & , 12.4 , 5 , &c. Eph , 2 , ●8 , & , 4.4 , 5 , 6 , e, Gal. 4 , 26 , f, Ioh , 17 , 21. g, Cor , 11 , 13. g, 1 Cor. 14 33 , h, Reu : 1.11 i, Act. 2 41 4● : 47. and. 5.13 . Heb , 10.25 , k, 1 , Cor , 5 , 4 , l Mat. 18 , 20 , m, 1 Cor. 11 , 2● , 33 & . 54 q Exo. 20 , 24. Mat , 18 , 20 , Isa , 4.5 , r 1 , Cor , 3.22 , 23 , & ● . 7 , 30. &c , Reu , 2. & . 3. s Act , 20 , 17.28 , Phil , 1 , , , P●t . 5 , 1 , 3. t Col. ● , ●8 . 1 Cor , 8 , 6 , & , 12 , 5. a Act , 2 , 3● b Rom , 10 , 17. Eph. 1 , 13 , c A●t , 2 , 38.41 , & , 8 , 37 , d Exod , 19 , 5 , 8. 2 , Chron , 34 , 1 , 12 , Luk. ● , 17 , Ioh , 1 , 26. Rom , 1 , 5. Mic 4 , 5. e Gal. 3 , 2● , f Gen , 17 , 7 , 1 Cor , 7 , 14 , g Colos. 1 , 28. & , 3 , 16 , h Rom , 15. ● , &c. 1 Gal , 6 , 1 , Leuit , 19 , 17 , k ● , Thes , 5 , 14. l Mar , ● , 7 , 2 Cor , 6 , 14 &c Reu , 2 , 27. & 22 , 15 , Isa. 31 , 8 , 9 Zach , 14 , 21 , m Mat. 18.17 , 1 , Cor , 5 , 5 12.13 , Tit , 3 10 , Num , 15 , 30 , 31. n Ioh. 17 . ●0 , &c. o 1 , Cor , 14 , 36 , p Mat , 28.19.20 , q Gal , 5 , r Song , 1 , 6 , Act , 2 , 41 , 47 Deut , ●● , 5 , &c. Exod , 20.24 . s 〈…〉 , 19.1 Mat. ●2 . 14 . t Cor , 10.5 , &c Act. 20.30 . u Gal. 6.3 4.5 x ● : Tim. ● . 19 . y Rom. 8.16 . 2 Cor. 13.5 1. Ioh. 3 14.19 . &c. a Ma● . 22.39.1 . Cor. 13 , 5.7 . b 1. Cor. 4 , 5 , c, R●u , 22 , 12. d Act , 20 , 30 , 2 Pet , 2 , ● , 2 , 1 Cor , 11 , 19 , e Reu , 2 , 16 , 22 , f 1 Cor , 5 , 1 , 2 , 13. g Iosh , 22 , 18. h Isa , 24.5 , 6 i Eze , 23.18 . k Ier. 3 8 , l Reu. 18 , 4 , m Reu 2 , 5. n Eph. ●● 32. 1 Cor 6 , 17 , o Mat , 11 , 25.27 , Gal. 1 , 15 , 16 , 1 Cor , 2.7 , 8 , p S●ng , 1.6 , 1 Cor 2 , 10 , 11. r Act , 24 , 5 , 14 , & 28.22 . s 1 Cor 2 , 14 , t Iude , vers . 19. a Reu , 17 , 4 & , 18. Prou 7.14.16 . b Ier. 18.18 , 1. King. 22 , 24 , 2 King 12 , 28 , 33 , c Dan. 11 , 31 , Lam. 1.4 &c. d Act : 12 : 2 , 3 : e Act : 8 : 1 : Heb : ●1 : 37 : 38. f Iohn , 3 , 27 , Heb , 5 4. g 2 , Tim , 2 : 9 , h, Iam , 1 : 21 : i, 1 Pet , 1 : 23 : 25. k, Phi. 2.16 . l 1 The , 5.11 : m Mat 18.20 . m Colos , 1.18 . n Gal. 3.28 : o Deut. 32 , 47. Ioh , 5.25 , p Gal. 4.6.1 . Cor , 2 , 12 , q Eze , 37 , 1 , 2 , 6.10 , &c. Notes for div A26579-e27440 a Reu 9 , 11 b Heb , 6 , 1 , Mar. 1.15 , c Eph. 2.8 , d Rom. 10 , 17. e Psa 110 , 3 Act , 2 , 41 , Gen. 9 , 27. f 1 Ioh 3 , 10 Ioh. 8 , 44 , a 2 Cor , 6 15. b Num. 19.22 . 2 Cor 6.17.18 . d 1 Ioh 3.10 e Gen 3.15 f 1 I●h . 3 , 8. Heb 2 , 14. g Gen. 3 , 15 h. Ioh , 8 , 44 i Psa , 139 ; 21 , 22. k Psa 26 , 5 l Psa. 101 8 Zach , 11 , 8. a Reu 19.11.14 . b ver . 18. c ver , 20. d Col 2 , 19. f 1 Tim 2 , 5 g 1 Ioh. 2 , 1 h Ier 31 , ●3 Heb. 8 , 10. i ver , 34. k Heb , 8 , 6. l Heb 9 , 15. a Ier 31 , 33 b Eze. 36 , 25 , 26 , 27 , 28 , c Tit , 2 , 11 12 , d Ier. 31 , 3● e eanons in anno . 1603 See also before pag. 56 f Heb , 6 , 1. g Heb , 8 , 10 h 2 Cor , 6 16. vers . 17. k As in the former argument is shewed l Ioh. 17 , 9 16. a Exo● . 19. Deut. 26 , 1● , 18. b 1 Cor 6 , 17 Ioh. 4.24 , c Psa 110.3 d Acts , 41 , e Non Deum sed , our puram coluisse Socrat hist. eccles l 3. c 1. f Rom , 8 , 26. Exod. 20 , g Mat , 5.17.18 19 h Ioh. 4.24 Phil. 1.3 , i Psal 16.4 a Rev. 8.3 , b Act 3 , 21. c Rom 12.6 7 d Ioh 13.20 See for this point of the ministery of Englād , an other treatise purposely handling this argument : intiled Reasōs &c. shewing that it is not lawful to hear the Ministery of England . c Ioh 13 , 20 a Heb 11.6 b Gen 4 , 4 , 5 Heb , 11.4 . c Heb , 5 , 4. d Rom , 10 , 15 , e Num. 23 f Th●se things are more particularly manifested in other treatises as Di●c●u , of the false Ch. Refut of Mr Gifford . And by the Ministers thēselues See among other The Abridgement of the book which the Ministers of Lincolnsh deliuered to his Maiesty , printed . 1605 g, See their own confes . before pag , 35 , h See befor pag , 56 , a Is● 1 , ●● , 1 , 1● , ● ▪ 13 , &c. b 2 Chro. 15 3 , c Eze 43.8 d Mat 15.9 e Isa. 43 , 10 f 2 Cor 4.13 g, Mat. 28.20 . h Phil 2 , 16 i, Rom , 15 , 14. k Leuit , 19 17. Luk , 7.3 l Mat , 18 , 16.17 . m Ioh 17 , 17 Ioh 8 , 32 o, 1 , Cor , 7 23 , a Heb 13.5 Psal. 69 , 30.31 . b Psa , 16.4 c Exo. 20 , 4 5. Lev. 18.3.4 . d Rom 12 , 1 e Ezek 36 38. f Rom , 15.16 . Isa 66 , 20. g pag , 74. h See bef●re pag , 2. i 1 Cor : 11 , 24.26 . k verse , 27 , l Rom 6 , 3.4.5 , m Act 22 , 16 , 1 Ioh , 1.7 . a H●b 10 , 14 b Ioh 6 , 53.35 , c Heb 10.29 30. d Gen , 5 , 3. e Deut 14.1 f Rō 8.29 , g Col , 1.15 . h 2 Cor 3.18 i Col. 3.10 k Gen , 1 , 27 l Act 10.11 12.28 , Leuit. 11 , m Esa 16 , 4 a Leu. 22.19 , 20. b Heb. 5.1 . c Leu 17 , 5 d Leu 4 , 26 e Heb , 9 , 11 f Heb 7.25 g Psal , 2.6 . h 1 Cor , 15 24. i Eph. 4 , 11 , 1● . 1 Tim. 5.17 . a Psa , 82.6 b Rom. 6 , 6 &c. c Mat 18.15 16 , &c. d 1 Cor 5.4 , 5.12.13 e Ioh 18.36 f Reu. 21.27 . g Mar , 1 , 15 h Mat , 5 , 3 &c. i Luk 11 , 17 k Dan 7 , 14 l Luk 1 , 32 33. m 2 Sam , 23 , 5 , n verse , 6 , ● a Ioh. 8.32 b Reu. 1 , 6. c Rom. 13.3 , &c d Ier. 51.6 . e Deut. 5 , 7 8.9 , &c f 2 Tim 3 , 12 g Gal. 5 , 1. h Psa 110.1 h Psa 110.1 i Rom 6.14 22. k Rom 6.16 Notes for div A26579-e32390 1 Liklihood a See Kelli sons Survey of the new r●ligi●n 1 b●ok chap , 1 5 , & 2 , book c. 2. Likeliehood . b The three cōu●rsiōs of Engl. par● 2 c. 12 s. 19 &c. Constit , & Can. eccles . 1603. Can 9. ● Likeliehood . a Kellis , Suruey , 1. book chap , 5 a pag , 55. b 1 Pet , 1.1 4 Likelihod . Pag. 9. & ●7 , & , 51. pag. 10 & 27 , &c 〈◊〉 7 , & , 51. &c Apol part 6 ● . 18. 〈◊〉 . 1. ● , Lik●lyhood d 〈◊〉 1. Likelie●ood . pag. 34. Act. 1.17 , ● . ● ●ikelie●●●d . a Luk , 17.26 . b Psa , 105 , 12.13 . c Ge● , 15. d Deut , 10.22 . e Gen , 17.20 . f Gen 36 , 15. &c. g ver 3 c 1 & h pag. 44. 1. The evil of the entrance . i pag , 44 , Answer . l Psa. 10 . 7● a pag , 46. Answer . b Zeph. 3.7 c Deut 32 , 5 Reu 2.14 15. f ver . 20. &c. g Eze 23 , ● Chro. 11.15 . Reu 17 1 , & , 18 , 2 2 The persons greeuously sinning &c. 1 Syn. 2. Syn. 3. Syn. Answer . a Kellison , Suru●y 1 book 4 chap b Iam 5 , 20 c pag , 263. d pag ; 52 , Answer . a Mic. 3.6 , b Rev. 9. c Mat 7 , 16 d Ioh 10 , 10 e Isa. 60.1 , 2.3 , Reu. 21 , 24 , f Isa 50 11 g pag. 56. Answer . h Psa 112.2 i vers . 10 , * ●sal . 37. The 4 syn . ‡ pag. 90. The 5. syn The 6 syn ” It would be knowne what Mr B●rn , counted & caled them in his book that of late he wrote against them . * ●ag . , 78 &c. 1. Error . Answer . ‡ Discouery Resut of Giff. Confessiō Apology . Answer to Mr. Iacob &c. ” Eph. 2 , 12 † 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Arist , 3. Polit , c. 1. * C●lo . 2.5 ‡ Act 2 . 4● ” Supplic to the king anno 1604. Reason of r●ligion . 6. 2. Error Answer . * 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Ier. 4.23 Gen , 1.2.3 . Error Answer . ‡ pag. 81 , 4 Error 〈…〉 * Reu 18 , & oftē in that book . 5 Error . Answer . ‡ 1 Cor 1.2 . Rom. 1 , 7. Eph 1.1 , † Mat. 20.16 . & 22 , 14. 6 Error . Answe .. ” pag. 78. * 1 Cor 8 , 6. & 12.5 . ‡ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . 1 Pet , 5 , 4 , Reu 1.13 & 2.1 . * 1 Tim 4 , 14 ‡ Tit. 1.5 . 2 Co , 12 , 28. Act , 14 23. ” 1 Tim 5 , 17 † Heb 13 , 17 1 Pet. 5.5 * Rom 12 , 6 7· ‡ 1 Cor. 14 34. 〈◊〉 31 , 24 * Art. 34. ‡ Luk 17.3 ” Mat. 18.15.16.17 . † 1 Cors. 4 12 , 13. * Treatise of Popes pard . part . 2. c 3 , ‡ 1 Cor. 7.23 Gal 5.1 ” 1 Cor. 12 28. † Apolog of the church of Engl. 1. part c , 2 divis . 7. * Suruey of the new relig , 1 book , 3 chap. ‡ See mōng other . the Discouery of the false church ; pag 165. & forward . Apology against the Oxford DD. pag. 60 &c. a Necess . of re●orm , pag 28. 7 Error . Answer . b Confess . 〈◊〉 , 3● , c Rom 15 , 1 Phil , 3 15 , 16. Eph , 4 , 2 , 3 d Heb 10 , 25 e Isa. 5 , 20 23 , f Exo. 2● , 2 g Leu 4 ( 27 28. &c , ver 2● . 23 &c , i verse . 3. k uerse . 13. &c. a vers . 28. b vers 24 , c ve 3 & 14 d Iudg , 19 , e Iudg. 20.13 . &c. f Iosh. 22.18.20 . g Prou. 21.27 . 8 Error . Answer . h 1 Kin. 12 28. a pag. 74. b pag. 111. c pag 116. d pag 113. e Plea of the inn●●ēt . p. 218. &c. A sayer prof●ssion . a pag. ●20 . b pag. 121. c Plea of the innocēt pag , 246· a pag. 99 , b Ps. 4.4 . 9 Error . Answer , a pag. 141. b pag. 131 ▪ c pag. 142. a pag , 121. b pag , 139.140 . c pag , 141 , d pag 54. &c. Ma● 28.19 , b 1 P●t ● , 1 Act. ●0 . 28 c 2 Cor , 6 , 4 &c. d 1 Cor 1.2 e ● Cor. 12 f pag. 144. g pag. 145. h In his chalenge , p : 85. i detestion , &c. p. 100. a Dialogue between a Papist & a protestāt : in the Epistle dedicatory : 10 Error Answer . Aswner . Answer . Answer . Answer . Answer . Answer . Answ. Answ. Answ. Answ. Answ. a Qu 19. ca. 1. Decima● a populo . a Act 19.15 b Acts and Monumēts , Wiliā Thor in his testament . Answ. c Act 17.23 d 1 Cor , 10 20. e Reu 9 20 , & 16 , 14. and 18.2 . f Deut. 12.2.3 . g Gen , 21 , 33 , h Gen 12 , 7 8. & , 13 , 4 &c , i Iude vers . 14.15 . 1 Reason , Answ. a See before p. 37.42.43 . b See before p. 2.107 . c Coūtry divinity : in th● Epis● de dic . d Ios , Nich. Plea. of the innocent . p. 236. e Luk. 11.47.48 . f Mat. 23 . 3● , a Pag , 13 & 102 , 103. b Isa. 49 , 4. c Mat. 23.37 . d Rom , 10.31 . e Coūtry diuinity fol. 48. e admire , f pag. 116. 2. Reason . a Tit. 1 . 16· b Act & monu . edi . 5. pag 11●7 , 1190 c ibidem pa 1184. d pag 1185 Coūtry diuinity . fol. 2● f Serm. on Rom. 12. p. 65.66 . a See before p. 56. b Hos. 9.8 c Answer to the admon . pag. 111. c Defense of the answer to the adm , pag. 621. e Seruice a● burîall . a Dialog , betweē a Pap & a protes . fol 38. b pag. 167. c Eph , 1 , 1. d Ano 1562 art . 19. e Art , 17· f pag , 168 3. Reason , Answer , a pag. 174. b 1 Cor. 3.11 . c vers . 6.7 . d Mat 16.16 . e 1 Ioh 4.2 . f Mark. 16 16. g Col. 2.6.7 . a pag , 74. &c. b Ioh. 3 , 36 Mat , 7.21 23 Rom. 2 , 6.8 . c pag. 174. d pag , 74. &c. e In the Creed , f Art. 19 , anno . 1562 g Coūtry , diuinity , fol. 19. a Art. 19. anno 1562 b ibid , art . 17 , c Book of cōmon prayer d Art. 35. anno , 1562 e Consti . & canōs , 1603 f Art. 36 , ano . 1562 g Canōs , anno 1603. & their practise according . h Country Devinity fol. 73 i Preface to Mr , D. Fenners Coūterpoys a pag , 169. b pag. 173. c Discouer . Pag. 156. 2 Tim 3 , 16 Prov. 30.5 Psal. 19.8 . & 12.6 . Psa. 119 entyre . Eph , 2 20. d Pag. 174 a ibid●m . b pag , 173 , c Psal. 119 152. d Answe to Artic 5 e Mat. 22.40 . f Mat 5.12 Ioh 3.36 . Rom. 1.5 . b Ioh 13.14 Mat 28.20 Gal 3.10 d Heb 2.2.3 & 3.7.8 & 10.26 &c. & . 12 , 25. Psa● 9.12 f Ian. 3.2 . g Rom 6.23 1. Ioh 2.4.6 & 3.6.8.9 ● pag. 171 , h See cōfer . in th' Fleet with Mr. Hutch and D'Andrews 4 Reason , a In the answer to Mr Raynolds preface . b pag. 92. c pag. 8. d pag. 18● e pag. 191. f Refut . of Giff pag , 1. g Luk 16 , 6 Refut pag 1 a Dis , p , 8. b pag. 182.183 , Ioh 20.19 . Dis. p. 10. 2 Cor 11.24 a I●a . 62 , 4. b pag. 185. c Luk. 2.1 , a Ma 28 , 18 b vers 17.21.22 , 23. c Gal 6 , 12 d Gal 2 , 14 e Ma 11 , 12 f pag. 185. g Iohn Bale Cent. 1. scri Brit , fol. 35 h Chr. Ranulph , Ci●●er . i pag , 186. Rom , 1. 1 Cor 1 &c. k Reu , 17 , l pag , 120. a Act. and monū , edit , 5 , p. 1180. b ibid. pag. 1181. ibidem . pag 1186. ibidem , pag 1189. f pag , 186 , M Dering 23 , Lectur on Epistle to the Hebrewes , pag , 186.187 a pag. 187. b pag. 182. pag. 188. a 2 Cro 14.8 9.10 . &c. b 2 Chr. 13 2.3 . c 2 Chr. 30 6. d vers . 10 e vers . 11. e vers . 11. f vers . 12. g vers . 18 19.20 . h 2 Kin. 18 10.11.12 : 2 Chr. 34. i vers . 30.31.32 . Fides suadēda est non imperanda . Bern. in Cantic . k vers . 30.31.32 . l Mar 1.15 & 16.15 . ●6 Act , 2.37.38 & 8.36.377 . Act 11.18 . E●h . 2.8 m Act and monum . edi 5 pag. 105. a As appeareth by D Downams . Serm. on 1. Tim. 3.1 . 2 pag. 80.81.86.87 . b 2 Admon fol. 43. c pag. 190 , d 2 Cor , 6 , 1● , 18. e Rom. 13 f Hab. 2.4 g Act 2.4 . h Psal. 2. a Ke● . Sur 8 , book in the preface 2 Obi●●tio● Answer . Reply . b Refut . p. 8. c Refut . pag 29. &c. Discouer , p. 62. &c. c Platima ● vitis pootie Damasus 1 f d Blat . Vtalimus . 1. i e Guil Durammus . f Act. and monū . edi , 5 pag , 1184. g Guil Durandus Ifidorus . h Ioan. Laziasdus , i Platiua de vit . Marcus 1 , 〈…〉 〈…〉 〈…〉 d Pla●ina . Tel●sphorus & Celistus 1. e Bergomen sis . f Lyb 3 decretal . Grego . g Volator , Platina . Bonif. 4. i Fasci , tem h Lib Con k Pap , suppl anno 1604 Reasō of religion , 13. l Leu 18 , 2 3 , &c , a Deut , 12 , 30 , 31 , b vers . 32 , c Reuelatiō 11 , 8 , d Deu 5 , 8 , 9 , 32 , 33 & 6 14 , 15 , 25 & 7 , 25 26 , & 12 , 2 3.30 &c Isa 1.12.13 & 29 , 13.14 . Ier , 1 , 16. Reu. 17.2 . & 18.3 , 11 12 , 20 , a pag. 196. b pag. 71 , c pag , 142. Notes for div A26579-e53860 a pag , 26. &c. b Rō . 9.16 1 Questions . Answer . c 1 Iohn . 5 , 16. d Rō 6 , 23. e Refut , of Gifford . Discovery Apolog. &c f Prou. 22 , 34 , 33. a supra , pag. 74. &c. b Ioh. 8 , 24 Act 4.12 c Canōs ano 1603 Can 4 , 6 , 7.8 . &c. d In his pre befor Vrsinus Catechisme . a ibidem b Remoual of imput layd on the ministers of Deuo. and Corn. p. 27 c pag , 169 d pag , 169 : e pag , 172· a 〈…〉 , 2 pag. 325. b 9 Argum against the ceremonies . a Pro 15 , 4 b Rev 22.2 c Canons . 1603. 2 Question Answer c Iob. 3.8 . a 〈◊〉 5● , 16 b 〈◊〉 , 11 5 c Ier , 3 , 14 , d Act. 17.22.33.34 . e Gal. 4 , 26 f Num , 23 5 , 26. &c. a T it 1 , 15 , b Psal. 19. a pag. 2.3 &c. 3 Q●estion Answer . b pag. 12 & 42. a pag. 44. 4. Questions Answer . b pag. 3● , a in you sermon , p. 17. b pag. 18. c pag , 32 , d Sermon , p 17. d supra . p. 19. Consider . 7. e supra . pag 19. Consid. 6. f. Your Ser. pag. 17 , g Supra , p. 23 Consid. 2. h Yovr ser. p. 18. i Mr Sions . sermon on Psa. 120. Supra , pag. 19. Consid. 7. n Dan. 1.4 l Your ser. pag. 19. Supra . pag. 30. Consid. 8. o pag. 20. a Ier 51 : 2● 
A29432	----	A dissuasive from the errours of the time wherein the tenets of the principall sects, especially of the Independents, are drawn together in one map, for the most part in the words of their own authours, and their maine principles are examined by the touch-stone of the Holy Scriptures / by Robert Baylie ... Baillie, Robert, 1599-1662. 1645 Approx. 747 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 138 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2008-09 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A29432 Wing B456 ESTC R200539 11906393 ocm 11906393 50687 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A29432) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 50687) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 51:9) A dissuasive from the errours of the time wherein the tenets of the principall sects, especially of the Independents, are drawn together in one map, for the most part in the words of their own authours, and their maine principles are examined by the touch-stone of the Holy Scriptures / by Robert Baylie ... Baillie, Robert, 1599-1662. [24], 252 p. Printed for Samuel Gellibrand ..., London : 1645. "Published by authority" Reproduction of original in Huntington Library. Marginal notes. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. 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Congregational churches -- Controversial literature. 2006-03 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2006-10 SPi Global Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2007-05 Jonathan Blaney Sampled and proofread 2007-05 Jonathan Blaney Text and markup reviewed and edited 2008-02 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A DISSVASIVE FROM THE ERROURS Of the TIME : Wherein the Tenets of the principall Sects , especially of the Independents , are drawn together in one Map , for the most part , in the words of their own Authours , and their maine principles are examined by the Touch-stone of the Holy Scriptures . By ROBERT BAYLIE Minister at Glasgow . JER . 9.3 . They are not valiant for the Truth upon the earth . JUDE ver . 3. It was needfull for me to write unto you and exhort you , that you should earnestly contend for the faith , which was once delivered unto the Saints ; for there are certaine men crept in unawares , &c. Published by Authority . LONDON , Printed for SAMUEL GELLIBRAND at the Brasen Serpent in Pauls Church-yard , 1645. FOR The Right Honourable the Earle of Lauderdaile Lord Metellane . YOur Lordship , I trust , will not bee displeased that your name is set before these Truths which your heart does love , and whereunto in the best companies of the whole Isle you have given at many occasions your chearfull countenance and zealous patrociny ; in the study whereof I have been oft both encouraged and assisted by your Lordships pious , wise , and learned informations . It has been of a long time the wish of my heart to have had nothing to do with Polemick writings ; the bodies of sojours are no more subject to wounds and manifold hardships , then the minds and names of disputant Divines do lie open to various vexations . The weary , starved , bleeding sould●er longs no more for a safe peace , then a spirit harassed in the toylsome labyrinth of thorny debates , pants for that quietnesse which only the finall overthrow and full subjugation of errour can produce . How pleasant will that day be to the sonnes of peace , when the Lord shall make good that word which by the mouth of two of his ancient witnesses he has established , when according to the Testimony of Isaiah , syllabically repeated by Michah , we shall beat our swords into plow-sheares , and our speares into pruning hooks , that we may walk together in the light of the Lord ? But so long as Divine Dispensation besets our habitations both spirituall and temporall , the Church no lesse then the State , with great numbers of daring and dangerous adversaries , we must be content , according to the call of the Prophet Ioel in another case , to prepare warre , to beat our plow shears into swords , and our pruning hooks into speares ; in this juncture of time the faint must take courage , and the weak say I am strong . It seems that yet for some time the servants of God must earnestly contend for many pretious truths , which erroneous spirits do mightily impugne : for the help and encouragement of others in that warfare , I , though among the weakest of Christs souldiers , doe offer these my endeavours . It was my purpose to have made a farther progresse , and to have handled all I mention in my Preface ; but being cald away from my present station by these who set me therein , upon the occasion your Lordship knowes , my studies in this kinde are broken off ; so that this essay in Brownisme and Independency must go forth alone , or nothing at all . My ay● in these two is , and was in all the rest ; First , in an historick way to set down the originall and progresse of the errour ; next its compleat parts together in one table , that at one view the whole face of the way may be represented ; for I conceived it many wayes advantageous and very satisfactory in debating either a truth or an error , to be brought to see the fountain and originall whence it hath sprung , the streams and issues whither the Tenet tends of it selfe , or is drawn by its followers ; to behold a way not in its pieces , but the whole together from the head to the feet , the begining , midst , and end without any concealment or disguise . Thirdly , my purpose was to have examined the principall parts of every errour in a short , cleare , and popular method , considering the maine Scriptures that use to be alledged in the point either pro or contra . I beleeve this my method will not be displeasing to any . I know it was acceptable enough to many of the Congregationall way when lately I did use it against the Canterburian Faction ; but possibly some of the matter of my historick part may fall out to be fashions to the followers of the Tenets which I labour to lay open ; for it is inavoydable to make a true and a full narration of any erroneous way , but such things must be told which will be displeasing to some ; yet I hope I have given as little offence in this kinde , as any other could have done in such a way of ●reatising ; for all the passages that may be pungent of the tenderest skin , are such , as not only I conceive to bee very true , but such also which I ever make presently good by sufficient Testimonies set downe fully at the end of every Chapter in the expresse words of the Authors . Secondly , the opinions or practises I alledge , are such as the parties themselves to this day do openly avow , or else have beene objected to them by very honest men long ago in print , and to this day , so farre as I know , are not taken off by any tolerable answer ; in all that is over and above , I will undertake to give ample satisfaction wherein soever I give the least offence to any . I date appeale to your Lordships knowledge , and to many others who have beene acquainted with all my by-gone walking , how averse I have ever been from causing griefe to any , especially good men : so farre as I am conscious to my most secret intentions , it is my hearts desire that all our present controversies might quickly either be ended or composed by calme , meek , and peaceable meanes , and these alone . That lately renewed Committee for Accommodation , Oh if it might please the Lord to shine upon it , however I may not stay to see its successe ; yet wherever I am , my best wishes shall be poured upon it , especially when I shall heare , as I have great reason to beleeve is only intended , that it abides circumscribed within the bounds of that prudent Order whereby it is renewed . For first , that Order is so farre from holding out an Accommodation for all the sects of the Land , that it speaks only of the differences that are among the members of the Assembly . Liberty of Conscience , and Toleration of all or any Religion is so prodigious an impiety , that this religious Parliament cannot but abhorre the very nameing of it . Whatever may be the opinion of Io. Goodwin , of Mr Williams and some of their stamp , yet Mr Burrowes in his late Irenicon upon many unanswerable arguments explodes that abomination . Likewise our Brethren who seek to be accommodate , will be willing I hope to professe their going along with us , without any considerable d●ssent , as in the Directory for all the parts of divine worship , so in the confession of Faith and Catechism . Secondly , the Order expresses only the differences in Church-government ; what other opinions wee have mentioned in the following Treatise , I hope our Brethren will either disavow and passe from them , or else be content to bury them in their owne breasts , till time and better information make them die and vanish without more moyse . Thirdly , the intent of the Order is to bring up the dissenting Brethren ●o approve of the Government agreed upon in the Assembly and allowed by both Houses of Parliament ; or if that cannot be , to see how in some practises they may be forborn . This doth suppose that our Brethren shall not be permitted to print , preach , or publish any thing against the Goverment established by Parliament ; also that in the practice of this Government they shall be obliged to joyne so farre with their Brethren as their principles may suffer . This being , I doubt not but in many things they sha●l be much forborn ; for whatever be the unadvised rashnesse of some in their way , yet if they may be pleased , according to their frequent offers ( as I remember ) to be constant members of our Presbyteries and Synods , and there to give were it but their consultative voyce , I beleeve that few of them shall ever be pressed to much more ; for if they agree among themselves , and governe well their owne Congregations , no controversie that concerns them will ever come before any superiour Assembly ; and if any complaint of their male administration , or any matter of ordination or excommunication should come from them to be cognosced in a Presbytery or Synod , the result might ever be to them as a matter of advice to be executed in their owne Congregations by their owne Pastors , if they did finde it right : or if it appeared wrong , the Generall Assembly , or at least the Parliament , would give them so much satisfaction , as on earth can be expected . Albeit I am in opinion , that no case meerly Ecclesiasticall shall ever need to goe from a Generall Assembly to a Parliament ; these two bodies are so friendly and neare of kin , that none who knowes their nature and constitution will ever feare their discord . I dare say , that all the jealousies which are presented to the Parliament of England of a Nationall Assembly , are meere Bugbeares and childish frightments , arising alone out of mis-information and unacquaintance ; for both reason and experience will demonstrate that the Parliament of England cannot have on earth so strong pillars and pregnant supporters of all their Priviledges , as free Protestant Assemblies established by Law , and kept in their full freedom from the lowest to the highest , from the Congregationall Eldership to the Generall Synod of the Nation . No such Barres as these are imaginable either against Tyranny or Anarchy ; they are the mightiest impediments both to the exorbitancy of Monarchs , which has been and is our misery ; and to the extravagancy of the common multitude , attempting to correct and subject all Parliaments to their owne foolish desires , which is like to be the matter of our next exercise and trouble . Protestant Assemblies examined to the bottom , will be found reall and cordiall friends to all the Iust , Legall and reasonable Prerogatives of a Monarch , to all the equitable and profitable Liberties of the meanest subject ; but above all to every due priviledge of a Christian Parliament . Sometimes we laugh , sometimes we grieve to see men afraid out of meere ignorance with that which we know is their great good . I am perswaded that after a little experience , Congregationall Sessions , Cl●ssicall Presbyteries , Provinciall Synods , and Nationall Assemblies will be embraced and sluck to by the Parliament of England as the greatest and most usefull priviledges of their great Charter . My fourth remarke upon the Order in hand is , that it speakes alone of the questions of Government , whereby the Assemblie was retarded , but nothing of the constitution of Congregations which never came to any considerable debate , much lesse did ever retard the Assemblies proceedings : and albeit the words of the Order might be extended beyond the Government to the constitution , yet wee may not thinke that the House doth intend to tolerate the gathering of separate Congregations ; in this point we hope that the desired accommodation shall satisfie our Brethren , and all tolerations shall be needlesse . Themselves are witnesses of our most earnest Desires , of our very reall indeavours , ( and we wish , they had been much more our helper● and reall Assistants ) for purging of all Congregations , so far as ever they have been in any time , in any place , for making them so void of ignorance and all scandalls as Scripture or any reason can require : In these our earnest requests we trust the Parliament at last will shew us favour . But when the Assembly and Parliament have done their uttermost , to have the Churches purified so farre as is possible , if notwithstanding of all that can be done , our Brethren will yet separate , and peremptorily refuse to communicate as Members , in the best ruled Congregations , either of England , or of any other reformed Church ; wee confesse , that by such a Declaration , our Brethren would put us to a great deale of perplexity ; for such a separation as this , were as we conceive , the most palpable and unreasonable Schisme that ever yet was heard of in the Christian World , much contrary to the word of God , and evidently destructive of the necessary peace of all these Churches wherein it should bee tolerated ; beside its cleare contradiction in termes , not onely to the Order of the House , but to the solemn League and Covenant of the three Kingdomes . Notwiihstanding wee trust that the grace and mercy of God , shall be so richly powred out upon this revived Committee , as shall enable them to expedit both us and our Brethren from these otherwise unextricable Labirynths . Would to God that our Controversies with them were brought to a happy period , that both they and we , with all our power might concurre to reduce the rest of our poore Brethren , who this day are pitifully intangled in manifold heresies and Errours ▪ that so all the childr●n of God being delivered from the snares and chaines of darknesse , might make it their great taske and only contention , who should honour most the name of their Father , by the fragrancy of their godly , charitable , humble , chaste , and sober conversation . Your Lordship is conscious to the first designes of the Noble Patriots of that your Nation , it was never their mind to have trifled so much time in jangling with their Brethren of this Isle , about new and needlesse questions , but expecting a facility of setling truth and Peace within these S●as , their hearts were farther abroad , their thoughts were large for the propagation not of ther owne but of Christs Kingdome , and that not so much in the Light as in the heate and life thereof . They have the more to answer who here and elsewhere have been the unhappy instruments , not only to frustrate these great and gracious enterprises for the Weale-publick of Christendome , but also to bring the undertakers to so low a condition , that they be obliged this day to God alone for any tollerable subsistence and their very being : albeit we are hopefull the Lord is reserving good things for them , who had so much Faith , charity , and Courage , as to venture all for the cause of God , and their Brethren , the more unkind men have proved unto them ; The Lord who hath been witnesse to all their intentions , actions and sufferings , will in his owne time accordingly reward them , and will not let them be ashamed of their first hopes and constant desires , upon the which himselfe for a long time did shine so evidently from the Heaven , as ever upon any enterprise on the Earth . Though now that brightnesse be much ecclipsed , and overclouded , yet we are expecting with passionate desires , and confident hopes , the dissolution of these clouds , and the dispelling of the present darkenesse by the strength of the Beames of his ancient and undeserved kindnesse , towards that now suffering and much distressed Nation . But insensibly my pen hath runne beyond the bounds of a short Epistle , albeit my experience of your Lordships readinesse to dispence with your friends indiscretion , makes me secure of my pardon . I will detaine your Lordship no longer , I lay downe my Booke at your Lordships feet , to be given to the world by your Lordships hand . If it be received with so much candor and charity by every Reader , as I know it is offered , it may possibly prove serviceable . Thus wishing to your Lordship in these dayes of deepe and dangerous tryalls , and too great defection of many , constancy , and daily increase of affection to all truth , Piety , Iustice , and every Vertue , I remaine , Your Lordships in all Christian duty to be commanded . R. Baylie ▪ London , Novemb. 19. 1645. The Principall Authors , whose Testimonies are cited in the case of the Brownists . 1 THe Brownists confession of Faith printed by themselves . 160● 2 The Brownists Apo●ogy printed . 1604 3 Robert Brownes Life , and manners of true Christians printed . 1582 4 Henry Barrow his briefe discovery of the false Church . 1590 5 Henry Barrow his plaine refutation of Mr Gifford , 1590. 6 Francis Iohnsons enquiry and answer to Thomas Whites Discovery of Brownism , 1606 7 Francis Iohnsons Christian plea , 1617. 8 Iohn Cann his guide to Sion , 1638 9 Iohn Cann his necessity of Separation . 1638. 10 Apologia Iusta quorundam Christianorum , &c. per Iohannem Robinsorum . 1619 11 Robinsons justification against Bernard reprinted at London , 1640 12 Syons royall prerogative , 1641. 13 A Light for the Ignorant . 1638. The Principall Authors whose Testimonies are cited in the case of the Independents . 1. An Apologeticall Narration by Thomas Goodwin , &c. 1643 2 Iohn Cottons Keyes published by Thom : Goodwin , and Philip Nye . 1644. 3 Iohn Cottons way of the Churches in New-England . 1645. 4 Iohn Cottons Sermons upon the seven Vialls . 1642. 5 Iohn Cottons Catechisme , or the Doctrine of the Church . 1644. 6 An Answer to thirty two Questions , by the Elders of the Churches in New-England , published by Mr. Peters . 1643. 7 An Apology of the Churches in New-England for Church-Covenant , or a discourse touching Church-Covenant . 1643. 8 A glimpse of Syons glory in a Sermon at a generall Fast-day in Holland , by T. G. printed at London . 1641. 9 Ieremy Burrowes Sermons upon Hosea . 1644. 10 The personall raigne of Christ by Io : Archer , Pastor of the Church at Arnheim . 164● 11 Io : Archers comfort for Beleevers . 1645. 12 Mr. Burtons vindication of the Independent Churches . 1645. 13 Iohn Goodwins Theo-machia . 1644. 14 A short story of the rise , reigne and ruine , &c. published with Mr. Welds large Preface . 1644. 15 Mr Welds answer to Rathbans narration . 1644. 16 Mr Cottons Letter to Mr. Williams . 1643. 17 The Anatomist anatomised by Mr Simson . 1644. We cite also for some matters of fact , to which no satisfactory Answer hath been made hitherto by the Parties . 1 Mr Edwards Antapologie . 1644. 2 Mr Williams examination of Cottons Letter . 1644. 3 Mr Williams bloody Tenet . 1644. 4 Plaine-dealing , or Newes from New-England by Thomas Lechford . 1642. 5 The Anatomy of Independency , by a Learned Minister of Holland . 1644. 6 Doctor Bastwicks Postscript . 1645. 7 Mr. Prinns fresh discovery . 1645. The CONTENTS of the following Treatise . The Preface THe chiefe and first meane to extinguish the flames of our warre , is , the waters of our heart poured out in prayers to God , pag. 1 Reformation after mourning , is the second step to a solid peace , p. 2 The corruption of the Church , is the fountaine of our present misery , ibid. The State cannot be setled till the Church be first reformed , 3 Every man would help what hee can to recover the languishing Church from her desperate disease , ibid. The offer of a strange and easie remedy of a Looking-glasse , 4 The malignity of Errour , ibid. The Authors intention is to set down in a Table for the cleare view of all , the errours which trouble us , ibid. And that with Iustice and Love toward all persons , 5 The partition of the ensuing Treatise , 6 Episcopacy was the mother of all our present Sects , ibid. Presbytery will be their grave , 7 The Presbyteriall way of proceeding , ibid. What England rationally may expect from Presbyteries and Synods , 8 Chap. 1. The originall and progresse of the Brownists . Satan is the great enemy of the Churches Reformation , 9 His chiefe instruments alwayes have been professed friends to Religion , ibid. Reformation at the begining did run with one impetuous current , ibid. What was its first stop , 10 The fountaine of Protestant discord , ibid. The unhappy principle of the Lutherans , ibid. And the more unhappy principle of the Anabaptists , 11 Somewhat of both these wayes was entertained in England , ibid. The originall of the English Bishops and Ceremonies , ibid. The originall of the Separatists , 12 Brownism is a daughter of Anabaptism , 13 Bolton the first known Separatist in England hanged himselfe , ibid. Brown the second leader of that way , recanted his schism , and to his death was a very scandalous person , ibid. The humour of Barrow the third master of this Sect , 14 The strange carriage of Iohnson and Ainsworth , the next two leaders of the Brownists , ibid. The horrible wayes of Smith their sixth master , 15 The fearfull end of Smith his wandrings , 16 Robinson the last grave and learned Doctor of the Brownists , did in the end undermine his party , 17 Robinson the authour of Independency , ibid. Chap. 2. The Doctrine of the Brownists . They hold that all Churches in the world , but their own , are so polluted , that they must be separate from , 20 Their injurious slanders of the Church of England , ibid. Yet sometimes they say , that communion maybe kept with her both in preaching and prayer , ibid. Their like dealing with all the other Reformed , 21 Their flattering of forraign Churches is not to be regarded , ibid. The matter of a Church they make to be reall Saints only , 22 Their unreasonable strictnesse in this one point , is the great cause of their Schism , ibid. They place the forme of their Church in an expresse Covenant , 23 Seven may make a perfect Church , yea two or three , ibid. The erecting of a Church , requires neither the Magistrates nor Ministers assistance , ibid. They put all Church power in a handfull of people , without any Pastor , 24 The election , ordination , deposition and excommunication of the Minister , belongs to his flock , and to it alone , ibid. Every man of the Congragation may preach , and publikely rebuke , not only the Pastor , but the whole flock , yea and separate from it , 25 Some of them give the celebration of the Sacraments also to private persons , ibid. The solemnizing of marriage they give to Parents , but Divorces they commit to the parties themselves , 26 They make every Congregation independent , and of Soveraigne Authority , ibid. Their judgement of Synods , 27 Their high conceit of their own way , and injurious depressing of all others , ibid. Churches , Bels , Tythes , Glebes , Manses , and all set maintenance of Ministers , are unlawfull ; not so much as a Church , yard must be kept up for buriall , but all must bury in the fields , ibid. The dayes of the week , the months , the yeare of God , they will not name , 28 No Pulpits , no Sand-glasses in Churches , no Gowns , ibid. All set prayer , even the Lords prayer , and all Psalms in meeter , yea in prose , if used as praises , are unlawfull , 29 Their opinion of preaching and Sacraments , ibid. Their strange way of celebrating the Lords Supper , ibid. They reject Catechismes , the Apostles Creed , and all reading of Scripture without exposition , 30 After preaching they prophecy , ibid. Then come their Questions , ibid. After all , they attend a very tedious discipline , ibid. Brown is for liberty of Conscience , ibid. His followers are against it , 31 Their carriage towards the Magistrate , ibid. They spoyle Kings and Parliaments of their Legislative power , ibid. They oblige the Magistrate to kill all Idolaters , ibid. But to spare all theeves , 32 They will have the Vniversities destroyed , ibid. Secular Authors and Learning must be abolished , ibid. Preachers must study no other books but the Bible , ibid. Chap. 3. The originall and progresse of the Independents , and of their carriage in New-England . Independency is the smallest of all the Sects of the time for number , but greatest for worth of its followers , 53 Independents are the Separatists off-spring , ibid. When the spark of Brownism was dying out in Holland , a little of its ashes carried to New-England , broke out there into a lasting flame , 54 By what meanes these ashes were kindled , ibid. Mr Cotton at first a great Opposite to that way , 55 Mr Cotton with little adoe , became the great Patron of that Errour , ibid : Mr Cotton was the mis-leader of Mr Goodwin and others , 56 Mr Cotton often deceived , hath given his patrociny to divers grosse errours , ibid. Why God permits great men to fall in evident errours , ibid. His Prelaticall , Arminian , and Montanistick tenets , 57 His Antinomy and Familism , ibid. Independency full as unhappy as Brownisme , 58 Wherefore so much of the Independent way lies yet in darknesse , 59 The fruits of Independency in New-England , ibid. First , it hath put thousands of Christians in the condition of Pagans , ibid. Secondly , it hath marred the conversion of Pagans to Christian Religion , 60 Thirdly , it did bring forth the foulest heresies that ever yet were heard of in any Protestant Church , ibid. A few examples of the many abominable heresies of the New-English Independents , 61 The greatest part of their Churches were infected with these errours , ibid. The piety of these Hereticks seemed to be singular , ibid. Their malice against all who opposed them , was singular , especially against all their orthodox Ministers and Magistrates , 62 Their errours in opinion did draw on such seditious practises , as did well neare overturne both their Church and State , ibid. Their proud obstinacy against all admonitions , was marvelous , p. 63 In the midst of their profession of eminent Piety , the profanenesse of many of them was great , p. 64 Notwithstanding of all this we desire from our heart to honour , and imitate all and every degree of truth and Piety , which did ever appeare in any New-English Christian , p. 65 Chap. 4. The carriage of the Independents in Holland at Rot●rdam and Arnheim , p. 75. Independency was no fruitfull tree in Holland , p. 75 Mr Peters the first planter thereof at Roterdam , ibid. Their Ministers , Mr. Bridge , Mr Simpson , and Mr Ward , renounced their English Ordination , and as meere private men tooke new Ordination from the people , ibid. They did quickly fall into shamefull divisions and subdivisions , p. 76 The people without any just cause deposed their Minister , ibid. The Schismes at Roterdam were more irreconcileable then those at Amsterdam , p. 77 Anabaptisme is like to spoile that Church , p. 78 These of Arnheim , admire and praise themselves above all measure . ibid. The easinesse of their banishment and afflictions . p. 79 The new Light at Arnheim , brok out in a number of strange errors . ib. First , grosse Chiliasme . ibid. Secondly , the grossest blasphemy of the Libertines , that God is the Author of the very sinfulnesse of sinne . p. 80 Thirdly , the fancy of the Euthusiasts , in contemplating God as God abstracted from Scripture , from Christ , from grace , and from all his attributes . ibid. Fourthly , the old Popish Ceremonies of extreme Unction , and the holy Kisse of peace . p. 81 Fifthly , the discharging of the Psalmes , and the apointing of a singing Prophet , to chant the Songs made by himselfe , in the silence of all others . ibid. Sixthly , the mortality of the soule . ibid. Seventhly , the conveniency for Ministers to preach covered , and celebrate the Sacraments uncovered : but for the people to heare uncovered , and to participate the Sacraments covered . p. 82. Their publick contentions were shamefull . ibid. Cap. 5. The Carriage of the Independents at London . p. 90 The worke of the prime Independents of New-England , Arnheim , and Roterdam , these five yeares at London . p. 90 They did hinder with all their power so long as they were able , the calling of the Assembly , ibid. When it was called , they retarded its proceedings , p. 91 That the Churches of England and Ireland lye so long in confusion , neither Papists , nor Prelates nor Malignants have been the cause , ibid. But the Independents working according to their Principles , p. 92 The great mischiefe of that Anarchy wherein they have kept the Churches of England , and Ireland , for so long a time , ibid. Independency is the mother of more Heresies and Schismes at London , then Amsterdam ever knew , ibid. Independency at London doth not only bring forth , but nourish and patronize Heresies and Schismes , contrary to its custome either in New-England or Amsterdam , p. 93 How hazardous it may prove to the State of England , p. 94 Chap. 6. An Enumeration of the Common Tenets of the Independents . p. 101 Why it is hard to set downe the Independents Positions , p. 101 They have declined to declare their Tenets , more then hath ever been the custome of any Orthodox Divines , ibid. When they shall be pleased to declare themselves to the full , their principle of change will hinder them to assure us that any thing is their setled and firme Tenet wherein they will be constant , ibid. The chiefe Tenets which hitherto they have given out , and not yet recalled , p. 102 They reject the name of Independents unreasonably , and for their owne disadvantage : ibid. When it is laid aside , the more infamous name of Brownists and Separatists will inevitably fall upon them . ibid. They avow a Semi-Separation , but a Sesqui-Separation will bee proven upon them . p. 103 The Independents doe separate from all the reformed Churches , upon far worse grounds then the Brownists were wont , to separate of old , ibid. Their acknowledgement of the reformed for true Churches , doth not diminish but increase their Schisme , ibid. They refuse all Church Communion , and Membership in all the reformed Churches , ibid. They preach and pray in them as they would doe among Pagans ; only as gifted men to gather materials for their new Churches . p. 104. About the matter of the Church , and qualification of Members , they are large as strict ▪ as the Brownists , admitting none but who convinces the whole Congregation of their reall regeneration . p. 105 Beside true grace , they require in the person to be admitted , a sutablenesse of Spirit with every other Member , p. 106 But in this they are laxer then the Brownists , that they can take in without scruple , Anabaptists , Antinomians and others , who both in life and Doctrine have evident blots , if so they be zealous and serviceable for their way . ibid. About the forme of the Church ( a Church-Covenant ) they are more punctuall then the Brownists . ibid. They take the power of gathering and erecting of Churches , both from Magistrates and Ministers , placing it onely in the hands of a few private Christians who are willing to make among themselves a Church-Covenant . p. 107 This power of erecting themselves into a compleat and perfit Church , they give to any seven persons , yea to any three ; neither admitt they more into a Church then can altogether in one place commodiously administer the Sacraments and Discipline . ibid. The Independents will have all the standing Churches in England except them of the Sectaries dissolved , and all their Ministers to become meerely private men , and any three persons of their way to be a full Church . p. 108 Vnto this Church of seven persons , they give all and the whole Church power , and that independently . ibid. Vnto this Congregationall Church alone , they give the full power of Election and Ordination , of Deposition and Excommunication , even of all their Officers , and of the finall determination of all Ecclesiasticall causes , p. 109 The difference of Iohnson and Ainsworth , about the power of the people and Presbyterie distinct one from the other , is not yet composed among the Independents , ibid. The common Doctrine of New-England is Ainsworths Tenet , that the people alone have all the power , and may excommunicate when there is cause , all their Officers , ibid. Mr. Cotton the other yeare did fall much from them and himselfe towards Iohnson , teaching that the whole power of Authority is onely in the Officers , and the people have nothing but the power of Liberty to concurre ; That the Officers can doe nothing without the people , nor the people any thing but by the Officers . p. 110 Yet that both Officers and people or any of them , have power to separate themselves from all the rest when they finde cause , ibid. The London Independants give more power of Ecclesiasticall Iurisdiction then the Brownists , unto woemen , p. 111 Some of them permit private men to celebrate the Sacraments , ibid ▪ Brownists and Independents doe perfectly agree i● the point of Independency , ibid : If a corrupt or negligent Congregation doe not censure the● owne Members , all the Assemblies in the world may not attempt to censure any of them , though most apparently they did corrupt a whole Nation with the grosseth Heresies , or most scandalous vices , p. 112 The point of Independency is either the root , or the fruit of many Errours , ibid. To temper the crudity thereof , they adde to it three moderating Positions , but for little purpose , ibid. They grant the being of Synods , but not of Classicall Presbyteries . p. 113 Their Synods are meerely Brownisticall without all Iurisdiction , wherein every one of the people may voyce ; also they are meerely Elective and only occasionall , ibid. The Sentence of non-Communion is Mr. Cottons invention , to supply that defect which themselves make in the Ordinances of God , ibid. It puts in the hand of every man a power to sentence all the Churches of the World , p. 114 It carries to the highest degree of Separation , ibid. Their supply of the defects of Independency , by the power of the Magistrate , was a remedy which they learned from the Brownists ; but now they have cast it aside , denying to the Magistrate all power in matter● of Religion , p. 115 The Independents doe advance their fancies , to as high a pitch of glory as the Brownists , ibid. They are the Brownists Schollers in many more things , beside the constitution and government of the Church , ibid. They give to the Magistrate the celebration of Marriage , ibid. Mr. Milton permits any man to put away his wife upon his meere pleasure without any fault , and without the cognisance of any Iudge , p. 116 Mr Gorting teaches the wife to put away her Husband , if he will not follow her in any new Church-way which she is pleased to embrace , ibid. They are against all determinations of the circumstances of Worship , and therefore all Church Directories are against their stomacks , ibid. The common names of the dayes of the week , of the Months of the yeare , of the yeare of God , of many Churches and Cities of the Land , are as unlawfull to them as to the Brownists , ibid. All Tythes and set-mayntenance of Ministers they cry downe , but a voluntary contribution for the maintenance of all their Officers they presse to a high proportion , with the evident prejudice of the poore , p. 117 In their solemne Worship , oft times they make one to pray , another to preach , a third to Prophesie , a fourth to direct the Psalme , and another to blesse the people . ibid. They make it a divine Institution without any word of preface , to begin the publick Worship with solemn prayer for the King and Church , p. 118 After the Pastors Prayer , the Doctor reads and expounds , ibid. In preaching , they will be free to take a Text or not , as they find it expedient , ibid. After the Sermon , any of the people whom they thinke able , are permitted to prophesie , ibid. All are permitted to propound in the face of the Congregation , what questions upon the Sermon they thinke meet , ibid. About the Psalmes they have divers strange conceits , but the speciall is their new Ordinance of a singing Prophet , who is place of the Psalmes singeth Hymmes of his owne making in the midst of the silent Congregation , ibid. They grant the lawfulnesse of read Prayers in diverse cases , p. 119 They will have none to be baptised but the children of their owne Members ; so at one dash they put all England except a very few of their way , into the state of Pagans , turning them all out of the Christian Church , denying to them Sacraments , Discipline , Church-Officers and all that they would deny to the Pagans of America , ibid. They open a doore to Anabaptisme by three farther Positions . First , they require in all to be baptised a reall holinesse above a foederall , which in no Infant with any certainty can be found , ibid. Secondly , they esteeme none for their Baptisme and Christian education a Member of their Church , till they have entred themselves in their Church Covenant , p. 120 Thirdly , they call none of their Members to any accompt before their Presbytery for obstinate rejecting of Paedo-baptisme , although the Brownists doe excommunicate for that sinne , ibid. They participate with none of the reformed Churches in the Lords Supper , yet they scruple not to communicate with Brownists and Anabaptists , ibid. Their way of celebrating the Lords Supper , is more dead and comfortlesse then anywhere else , p. 121 They have no catechising , no preparation , nor thanks-giving-Sermons ; ordinarily they speake no word of the Sacrament in their Sermons and prayers , either before or after , ibid. They have onely a little discourse , and short prayer in the consecration of both the Elements ; thereafter , in the action nothing but dumb silence , no exhortation , no reading , no Psalme , ibid. They require none of their Members to come out of their Pewes to the Table , and they acknowledge no more use of a Table then the Brownists at Amsterdam , which have none at all , ibid. They teach the expediency of covering the head at the Lords Table . p. 122 They are as much for the popular Government as the Brownists , ibid. All Discipline must be executed in the presence and with the consent of the whole people , and all must passe by the expresse suffrage of every one , p. 123 Dissenters not onely loose their right of Suffrage for the time , but are subjected to censure if they continue in their dissent , ibid. They are much for private meetings ; for it is in them that they usually frame the Members of other mens Congregations into their new mould ; but the Brownists , and they of New-England having felt the bitter fruits of such meetings , have relinquished if not discarged them , ibid. They flatter the Magistrate , and slander the reformed Churches without cause , p. 124 Some of them are for the abolishing of all Magistracy , ibid. All of them are for the casting out , and keeping out of the Christian Church all Princes ; all Members of Parliament , all Magistrates of the Counties and Burrowes that now are , and that ever have been , and are ever like to be hereafter , except a very few . p. 125 These few Magistrates which they would admit , have no security but by the errour or malice of a few , to be quickly cast out of the Church without any possibility of remedy , ibid. When they have put all who are not of their mind out of the places of Magistracy , yea out of all Civill Courts ; the greatest Magistrates they admitt of , be they Kings or Parliaments , they subject them all to the free will of the promiscuous multitude , ibid. When Magistrates will not follow their new errours , they have been very ready to make Insurrections to the great hazard of the whole State , p. 126 Many of them deny to the Magistrate any power at all in the matters of Religion , ibid. Their principles doe spoile Princes and Parliaments of their whole Legislative power ; they abolish all humane Lawes that are made , and hinder any more to be made , p. 127 The Civill Lawes which Mr Cotton permits men to make , binde no man any further then his owne mind is led by the reason of the Law to Obedience . p. 128 They put the yoke of the Iudiciall Law of Moses on the neck of the Magistrate , ibid. They give to their Ministers a power to sit in Civill Courts , and to voyce in the election of the Magistrates , and to draw from Scripture civill Lawes for the Government of the State , ibid. They offer to perswade the Magistrate contradictory Principles according to their owne interest ; in New-England they perswade the Magistrate to kill Idolaters and Hereticks ; even whole Cities , men , women and children . p. 129 But here they deny the Magistrate all power to lay the lost restraint upon the grossest Idolaters , Apostates , blasphemers , Seducers , or the greatest Enemies of Religion , ibid. No great appearance of their respect to secular Learning and Scholes , ibid. Independency much more dangerous then Brownisme , ibid. Chap. 7. It is unjust scrupulosity to require satisfaction of the true grace of every Church Member . The Independents prime Principles , p. 154 It s unjust scrupulosity to require satisfactorie assurance of the true grace of every Church-Member , p. 154 Their Tenet about the qualification of Members , is the great cause of their separating from all the reformed Churches , though they doe dissemble it , p. 155 In this they goe beyond the Brownists , p. 156 The true state of the question , is , whether it be necessary to separate from a Church wherein we get no satisfaction of the true grace of every Member at their first admission ? ibid. For the negative , we reason first from the practice of Moses and the Prophets , who did never offer to separate for any such reason , p. 157 The causes of a just separation were smaller under the Law nor under the Gospell , ibid. Our second reason is from the example of Christ and his Apostles , who did not separate for any such causes , p. 158 The third reason , It is impossible to finde true grace in every member of any visible Church that ever was , or shall be in the world , p. 159 The fourth . This satisfaction in the true grace of all to be admitted , is builded on foure errours , p. 160 The fifth Argument . Their Tenet is followed with diverse absurdities , p. 161 Cottons reasons to the contrary answered , p. 163 The first reason put in forme , ibid. All the parts of it are vitious , ibid His second Argument , p. 168 His third Argument , p. 169 His fourth Argument , p. 170 His fifth , p. 171 His sixth , p. 172 His seventh , ibid. His eigth , p. 173 His ninth ; all his nine or twelve Reasons put in one , will be too weak to beare up the weight of his most heavy conclusion . Chap. 8. Concerning the right of Prophesying . The state of the Question . 174 The first Authors of this Question . ib. The Independents difference among themselves hereabout . ib. That none but Ministers may ordinarily prophesye , we prove it first , by Christs joyning together the power of Baptisme and the power of preaching . 175 Secondly , These that preach , must be sent to that worke . ib. Thirdly , every ordinary Preacher labours in the word and Doctrine . 176 Fourthly , none out of Office , have the gift of preaching ; for all that have that gift , are either Apostles , Evangelists , Prophets , Pastors , or Doctors ; and all these are Officers . ib. Fifthly , no man out of Office might sacrifice . ib. Sixthly , all who have from God the gift of preaching , are obliged to lay aside all other occupations , and attend that work alone , 177 Seventhly , the Apostles appointed none to preach but ●ders . ibid. Eigthly , the preaching of men out of office , is a meanes of confusion and errour . ibid. The contrary arguments which Mr Cotton in his Catechism and Answer to the 32 Questions borrowes from Robinson , answered . 178 Chap. 9. Whether the power of Ecclesiastick Iurisdiction belongs to the people , or to the Presbytery ? What is meant by Ecclesiastick Iurisdiction , 181 The state of the Question , ibid. For the Negative , that the people have no power of Iurisdiction , we reason , First , The Officers alone are Governours , and the people are to be governed , p. 183 Secondly , the people have not the Keyes of heaven to binde and loose , p. 184 Thirdly , the people are not the eyes and eares in Christs body , for so all the body should be eyes and eares , ibid. Fourthly , the people have not any promise of gifts sufficient for government , ibid. Fifthly , the popular government brings in confusion , making the feet above the head , p. 185 Sixthly , the people have not the power of Ordination , p. 186 Seventhly , this power in the people , would disable them in their Callings , p. 187 Eigthly , this power of the people would bring in Morellius Democracy and Anarchy in the Church , ibid. Ninthly , this power of the people will draw upon them the power of the Word and Sacraments , p. 188 Mr Cottons ten contrary arguments answered , p. 189 Chap. 10. Independency is contrary to Gods Word . God is the Authour of the union and dependency of particular Churches , p. 196 Separation and Independency were the Anabaptists inventions , ibid. From them Morellius and Grotius learned the Tenet , p. 197 The state of the Question cleared , ibid. That single Congregations are not independent , is proved , First , from 1 Tim. 4.14 . p. 199 The second argument from the Apostolick Churches , which exercised full Iurisdiction ; the chiefe whereof , if not all , were Presbyteriall and not Parochiall , p. 202 Our third argument from the subordination of the Church of Antioch to the Synod at Ierusalem , Acts 15. p. 205 Our fourth argument from the subordination of fewer to more , appointed by Christ , Matth. 8. p. 209 Our fifth argument from the evill consequents which reason and experience demonstrate to follow Independency necessarily and naturally , p. 212 Our last argument , Independency is contrary to all the Discipline that ever was knowne in Christendome before the Anabaptists , p. 215 The first objection or argument for Independency from Matth. 18. p. 216 The second objection is taken from the practise of the Corinthians excommunicating the incestuous man , p. 218 The third objection from the example of the seven Churches of Asia , p. 220 Their fourth objection from the practise of the Church●s Thessalonica and Colosse , ibid. The fifth , sixth , seventh , and eigth objection , p. 223 Chap. 11. The thousand yeares of Christ his visible Raigne upon Earth , is against Scripture . The Originall and progresse of Chiliasme , ibid. The mind of the Indep●ndent Chiliasts , ibid. Our first reason against the Chiliasts , is , that Christ from his Ascention to the last Iudgement abides in Heaven , p. 225 Our second reason is built on Christs sitting at the right hand of God till the day of Iudgement . p. 227 Our third reason is grounded on the Resurrection of the dead ; the Godly and ungodly doe all rise together at the last day , p. 228 Our fourth reason is builded on Christs Kingdome , which is spirituall and not earthly , p. 229 Our fifth reason is taken from the nature of the Church , p. 230 A sixth reason from the secrecy of the time of Christs comming , p. 231 A seventh reason from the Heavenly and eternall reward of the Martyrs , p. 232 An eigth reason , the restoration of an Earthly Ierusalem brings backe the abolished figures of the Law , p. 233 A ninth , Antichrist is not abolisht till the day of Iudgement , ibid. The Chiliasts first reason is from Revel : 20. 4. p. 234 Our new Chi●iasts are Inventors of a new Heaven and of a new Hell , p. 236 Twelve other reasons of the Chiliasts answered , p. 237 The PREFACE . WHile the fire of War continues to scorch every one of these miserable Dominions , it is the duty of all compassionate Countrey-men to contribute the uttermost of their best endeavours for the extinguishing of these unhappie Flames , before the remainder of all our Churches and States be burnt down to ashes . Too much Oil already hath dropped from many unhallowed Pens ; the times now do passionately call for Waters ; and them , the more cold and clear , the better , for quenching the thirst of this devouring Beast . Vinegar and Gall , though in the largest measures , whole rivers of Blood will not allay , but augment the heat of a Civil War ; The most hopeful Peace-makers , from whose intermedling the greatest successe is to be expected , are they whose vessels are filled most plentifully with tears , to be poured out before the Throne of God. The fire which this day prevails against us , which burns up not the flesh onely , but the very bones of our Kingdoms , is from above : it is the Lord who burns against Iacob like a flaming fire which devours round about . When the scorching heat of the Sun dries up the moisture from the grasse and corn , there is no remedy for the languishing fields , till the vapours ascend from below , and thicken in a cloud ; then incontinent the burning beams are intercepted , the showres descend from above to refresh and renew the withered face of the parched ground . The most seasonable exercise of al who love the peace of Ierusalem , is to fill the air with the exhalations of their Spirits , with the perfumes arising from the kindled Incense of their Prayers ; much of these holy vapours will hardly make up one cloud ; wherefore many hearts would daily be breathing up together some store of that heavenly smoke . However for a time all our endeavours may seem to be quite evanished , and when we have gone out to behold much ofter then seven times , there may appear to our eye not so much as the smallest beginning of the least cloud ; yet when the period of Gods appointed season is come , when the three yeers and six moneths are past over and gone , there will certainly arise a cloud which , however at first very small , and no broader then a hand , yet will quickly become so big as to fill the heavens with voices , and send down to the wearied earth such plenty of rain as could be wished . But to the end the waters of our Prayers may be the more acceptable in the sight of our Prince of Peace , who alone dispenses at his pleasure to persons and Nations that very desirable and much longed-for blessing of quietnesse , we must cleanse our hands of those crimes which have drawn down from the Throne of Justice that plague of War which so much this day doth vex and well-neer undo us : If once our ways did please the Lord , he would quickly make our enemies to be at peace with us . If Israel did walk in his ways , their enemies should soon be subdued , and the hand of God so far turned against their adversaries , that they should submit themselves without further opposition . But what peace can be expected , so long as the Whoredom and Witchcraft , the Idolatry and Oppression of Iezebel , the crying Crimes of many in the Land , yet unrepented for , doth offend the holy eye of the great Dispenser of Peace and War ? A Reformation after mourning , is the second step to a solid Pacification . Long may we petition both God and men for peace in vain ; long may we article and treat for that end without any successe , unlesse a reall Reformation remove from the sight of God the personal abominations , the State-transgressions , and the Church-impieties of our Lands . The Crimes of persons are grievous , but those of a State are more . The corruption of a member is not so grievous as of the whole Body ; and the deformity of the Body Political , is not so unpleasant to the eye of God as of the Church : this is the Body , this is the Bride of Christ ; nothing so much provokes the passion of a loving Husband , as the polluting of his Spouse . Church-grievances were the first and main causes of our present Troubles ; the righting of these , will open the door of our first hope of deliverance . Whoso will observe either the spring or progresse of our present Woes in all the three Kingdoms , will finde that the open Oppression and secret Undermining of the Common-wealth , by the craft and tyranny of the malignant Faction , did highly provoke the wrath of God , and was a great occasion of all this D●scord which hath broke out among men : Yet it is evident , that the p●incipal cause which hath kindled the Jealousie of God , and enflamed the spirits of men to shake off and break in pieces those Yokes of Civil Slavery , which ingenuous necks were no more able to bear , was the constuprating of the Church , the bringing in upon her by violence , and daily multiplying of Errours , Superstitions , Idolatries , and other Spiritual Burdens . The Method of our Cure , if ever it prove solid , must lead our Physitians to the fountain of our Disease . All Treaties for accommodating State-differences , will be lost , if in the first place Religion be not provided for , according to the minde of God. If once the Temple were builded , and filled with the cloud , the Difficulties would be small in making up the breaches in the house of the Kingdom , and filling it with Peace and Prosperity . So long as the Temple lies desolate , it is not possible to rear up the walls of the City . It were the wisedom of our great Builders , when they finde themselves over-toiled in the Fifth yeer of their Work , as they desire not to have all their by-past labours vain and fruitlesse , at last in good earnest to set upon the building of the Church . Interests of private persons and particular Factions , laid over with the colour of pretended State-reasons , may procrastinate days without number , setling of Religion : yet if we trust either ancient or late experience , these States-men provide best for the welfare of their Countrey , who give to the God of heauen , to his Worship and House , the first and most high place in all their studies and cares . If we behold either the former , or the later Reformers of the State of Israel ; if we consider the practice of Moses , of David , of Hezekiah , of Zerubbabel , and others , it is evident the Tabernacle , the Ark , the Temple , did first and most lie at all their hearts . Our Neighbours and Brethren of Scotland , when this our Disease was upon them , and did presse them well-neer to death and ruine , by this method of Physick did in a short time regain their full health and strength , in the which they had great appearence to have continued , without any Recidive , unlesse their pious compassion and brotherly attendance upon us in our languishing , had made them partakers of these evils in our Company which they had clean escaped , The lamentable neglect for so long a time of the Churches disease , makes now the Cure , if not desperate , yet much more difficult then once it was : so much the more had every good man need to bring forth the best of his wits , at least of his wishes , for the encouragement and assistance of our great Physitians , who now , blessed be God , with all their care , are busied , above all things else , about the recovery of that languishing Patient . The voices of some of her more faithful servants crying aloud in the ear of all the world of their Mistris extreme danger , of her approach to the doors of death ; this noise hath a wakened and given an Alarm to many , that now they run with speed to recover the exparing breath of their dying Mother , not without some disdain and ●nd●gnation against them by whose subtil artifices , and more then ordinary industry , they have been kept off all this while from so much as approaching the sick bed of the dangerously-diseased Spouse of Christ . And now while so many gracious hands are about this noble Patient , every one out of their rich shops bringing the choicest Medicaments they can fall upon ; I also , out of my poor store , rather from a desire to testifie affection then confidence of any skill in this Art , do offer unto her , as one mean of help , a Looking-glasse , wherein if she will be pleased but to behold the Symptomes of her Disease , by this inspection alone , and clear sight of her face in this Glasse , without any further trouble whether of Potions within , or Applications without , I am hopeful , through the blessing of the great Master of all lawful Arts , she shall be able to shake off the principal of those evils which now do most afflict her . That by the eye alone very noisome Diseases may be conveyed to the body , it is the ancient credulity of some . However , dayly experience puts it out of all doubt , that thorow the glasse of the eye the soul may be infected with the desperate Diseases of most pestilent passions . But that which here is offered , is much more rare and singular , by looking in a Glasse to cure the worst Diseases , and to remove from the soul the most dangerous passions by meer contemplation . To leave Metaphors , my meaning is , that the greatest hazard of our Church this day , comes from the evil of Errour . This , if the Apostle Paul may be trusted , doth eat up the soul no lesse then a Gangrene the body . This , if we will believe the Apostle Peter ▪ is a pernicious and damnable evil which brings on sudden destruction . It is a sin before God no lesse abominable then those which brought fire on Sodom , the flood on the first world , the chains of darknesse upon the evil Angels . At this instant , when the evil of Errour hath spred it self over the whole Body of this distracted Church , it seems it may prove a remedy not unprofitable to draw together the chief heads of those errours which now are flying abroad ; their faces being cleerly described in one short Table in their true lineaments and native colours , will appear so deformed , that many who now are bewitched with them , upon this sight , may be brought out of all further aff●ction towards them . This is the end of my present work , without the least intention , so far as I can understand my own meaning , to create any just offence or reall hurt to any mans person . For , truely , I know not the creature breathing , to whom heartily I do not wish Grace , Mercy , and Peace ; onely the opinions which for a long time , with all licence , are blown by the Spirit of errour over all the Land , to the dishonour of God and the indangering of many a mans salvation , I wish were set out in their clear and lively shap●s , that they may be seen , as truely they are , without any disguise , by the eyes of all , I am much deceived if their bare and unmasked face shall be found very pleasant to solid and intelligent minds . And because it is a matter full of difficulty to set down the tenents , especially erroneous , of any men , according to their own contentment ; that herein I may do wrong to none , it shall be my care in every thing I conceive material and controverted , to speak nothing without Book , but alwayes to bring along my Warrant , to alleadge nothing doubtfull of any man , but what himself or some other , whose Faith is above just exception , hath published before me to the world . If for all this , my Testimony be refused , I can but declare , that knowingly I do not misreport either the words or the sence of any man ; for , I esteem Truth so honourable and so beautifull a creature , but falsehood so deformed and base , that no consideration ( I know ) would so far overballance my mind as wittingly , to make me entertain the one , with the prejudice of the other . Notwithstanding , if so it should fall out , which is very casuall to men , much my betters , that through inadvertence I should misapprehend , and accordingly misreport any mans judgement , upon the smallest conviction I purpose not onely to retract my misconceptions , but , for further satisfaction , I promise to make my retractation no lesse publike then was my errour . It is not my purpose to take notice of every extravagancy which hath dropped from all the distempered brains of the time ; the profit of such a task would not co●ntervaile the Labour : onely I will put down , as it were in one table , so many of th●se irregular conceits , which now are abroad , as may demonstrate to any common eye the undeniable footsteps of the Spirit of Errour and Schism walking among us , and bringing forth in great plenty the births of his darknesse , to the end that such a multitude of Satans Brats , appearing openly in the arms and bosoms of otherwise ( I suppose ) well-meaning people , the beholders may tremble , and with all carefulnesse avoid the deep deceipt of that Angel of Light ; and the deceived themselves seeing with their eyes what they hugg and dandle , to carry in the face the cleer lineaments of a mishant Parent , for grief and shame that they have been so long Nursing-Fathers to Satans brood , may become the first to dash the brains of these cursed Brats against the stones ; or if they needs must obstinately continue fond of that bastard Generation , they may enjoy what they love , themselves alone ; all well-advised men standing aloose from the danger of so misordered and irrationall affection . The principall by-paths , wherein the most among us this day do tread , who divert from the high , open , and straight way of the Reformed Churches , may be reduced to ten generall Heads : The Brownists , or rigid Separatists , are the first who break off at a side : The Independents , their Children , go on with them for a time ; but , wearied with the widenesse of their Parents wandring , professe to come in again towards the rode way , yet not so closely , but still they keep a path of their own . How much neerer these men professe to draw towards us then their Fathers , so much the farther their other Brethren run from us ; for , the Anabaptists go beyond the Brownists in wandring ; the Antinomians are beyond the Anabaptists , and the Seekers beyond them all . These five lead aside on our right hand : towards the left there be no fewer crooked Lanes ; The Prelatical Faction ; the down-right Papists ; the Arminians ; the Socinians ; and , who now make as much trouble as any , the Erastian-Civilians . Of all these we will thus far consider , as first , in a brief historick narration , to set down their original and present condition ; Secondly , to name their tenents in particular ; Thirdly , to refute from Scripture some of their most prevalent errours : Onely in the entry , one stumbling block would be put by . It is marvailed by many whence these new Monsters of Sects have arisen : Some spare not , from this ground , liberally to blasphem the Reformation in hand , and to magnifie the Bishops as if they had kept down , and this did set up , the Sects which now praedomin . But , these murmurers would do well in their calm and sober times , to remember that none of the named Sects are births of one day ; but all of them were bred and born under the wings of no other Dame then Episcopacy : the tyranny and superstition of this Step-mother , was the seed and spawn of Brownisme , the great root of the most of our Sects ; all which were many yeers ago brought forth , however kept within doors so long as any Church-Disciplin was on foot : Now , indeed , every Monster walks in the street without controlement , while all Ecclesiastick Government is cast asleep ; this too too long inter-reign and meer Anarchy hath invited every unclean creature to creep out of its cave , and shew in publike its mishapen face to all , who like to behold . But , if once the Government of Christ were set up amongst us , as it is in the rest of the Reformed Churches , we know not what would impede it , by the Sword of God alone , without any secular violence , to banish out of the Land these Spirits of Errour : in all meeknesse , humility , and love , by the force of Truth convincing and satisfying the minds of the seduced . Episcopal Courts were never fitted for the reclaiming of minds ; their prisons , their fines , their pillories , their nose-slittings , their ear-cuttings , their check-burnings , did but hold down the flame to break out in season with the greater rage . But , the Reformed Presbytery doth proceed in a spiritual Method evidently fitted for the gaining of hearts ; they go on with the offending party with all respect , and at so much leasure as can be wished , appointing first the fittest Pastors and Elders in the bounds , to confer and instruct him in private : if this diligence do not prevaile , then they convent him before the Consistory of his Congregation ; there by admonitions , instructions , r●proofs , and all the means appointed in the Gospel , they deal with him in all gentlenesse , from weeks to moneths , from moneths oftentimes to yeers , before they come neer to any censure , and if so it fall out that his insuperable obstinacy ●orce them to draw out the terrible Sword , their proceeding here also is so exceeding leasurely , and full of sensible grief and love to the party , of fear and Religion towards God , that it is a singular ra●●ty among them to see any heart so hard as not to be mollified , and yeeld before that stroke be given . Excommunications are so strange in all the Reformed Churches , that in a whole Province , a man in all his life will scarce●e witnesse to one , and among them who are cut off by that dreadful Sword , very few do fall in the States hand to be troubled with any civil inconvenience . By this kinde of Government , other Reformed Churches with ease have kept themselves pure and clean of all our Heresies and Schisms , not onely Scotland , Switzerland , and divers parts of Germany , but France it self , which to this day was never blessed with any assistance from the secular Arm ; by this spiritual and divine adminicle alone , have kept themselves safe from the irruption of all erroneous Spirits . I confesse that Holland hath been a cage to these unclean birds ; but the reason is evident , the civil State there walking in the corrupt principles of carnal Policy , which cannot be blessed with final successe , doth imped the exercise of Church-Discipline in its most principal parts ; these last fourty yeers that Land hath not been permitted to enjoy more General Assemblies then one , and how great Service that one did towards the purging of the much corrupted Church , and calming the greatly disturbed State , all their Friends in Europe did see and congratulate while their foes did grieve and envy it . It is not prophecy , but a rational prediction bottomed upon reasons and multiplied experience ; Let England once be countenanced by her superior powers , to enjoy the just and necessary Liberty of Consistories for Congregations , of Presbyteries for Counties , of Synods for larger Shires , and National Assemblies for the whole Land , as Scotland hath long possessed these by the unanimous consent of King and Parliament , without the least prejudice to the civil State , but to the evident and confessed benefit thereof ; or as the very Protestants in France , by the concession of a Popish State , and King , have enjoyed all these four spiritual Courts the last fourscore yeers and above ; Put these holy and divine Instruments in the hand of the Church of England , by the blessing of God thereupon , the sore and great evil of so many Heresies and Schisms , shall quicly be cured , which now not onely troubles the Peace and welfare , but hazards the very subsistance both of Church and Kingdom : without this mean , the State will toile it self in vain about the cure of such spiritual diseases . CHAP. I. The Original and Progresse of the BROWNISTS . THe greatest without comparison , and most admirable work which the hand of God hath brought to passe upon earth in these later Ages , is , the Reformation of Religion from Antichristian pollution and tyranny : No other could have been expected from the Prince of Darknesse , but extreme opposition to this so high a prejudice to his Kingdom : Incredible is the help which this unclean spirit hath made to Antichrist his chief servant , for the upholding of his tottering Throne . How many Princes and States hath he stirred up to persecute with Fire and Sword , to the cruellest deaths , the innocent Witnesses of the Truth ? How many learned Divines hath he bewitched with his Enchantments , to spend their spirits and time in maintaining by Word and Writings the grossest abominations of that Romish Idol ? But the chief Artifice whereby this crafty Serpent hath most impeded the progresse of the Gospel , and kept the Triple-Crown upon the Popes head , is his powerful working in the midst of the Children of Light : So cunningly hath he insinuated himself into the counsels and actions not onely of the Children of this World , but of the Sons of Sion themselves , that by their hands , more then any other , he hath laid in the way of Christs running Chariot scandals insuperable , impediments irremovable , by any humane might , till the Lord from heaven put them out of the way . The Light of the Gospel broke out so clear , the heat of Zeal , the truely heroick and more then humane wisdom and courage of the first Reformers , were so irresistable , that all the power of Papal Princes , and all the learning of their Clergie , were not sufficient obstacles unto the Torrent of their spirit ; all these humane Bulwarks were overflowed with the Flood of the Gifts of Gods Spirit in his Servants . The whole Kingdoms of England and Scotland , Denmark and Sweden , Ireland and Navar , were subdued to the Scepter of Christ ; much of France and Pole , the most of Germany both above and below , the most of Hungary and Switze were pulled out of the Popes mouth ; Italy and Spain were entred , and fair beginnings of a gracious day did appear to both . But behold , in the midst of our Conquests and Triumphs , while all our enemies without were upon the point of fainting and despair , the Dragon and his angels got entresse in the heads of our friends , and by their hands drew us back from the pursuing of our foes , who were ready to have given over and submitted ; but remarking our unexpected halt , and turning from them one upon another , they got a time to breathe , and to gather such strength , that ever since they have been the pursuers ; and as long ago they have regained much of their losse , so doubtlesse , had it not been for the invincible strength of our Captain , before this day they had totally ruined us . To passe a number of stratagems whereby Satan hath diverted Protestants from carrying on their work against the Popish party , I touch but upon two , a double erroneous Principle , whereby he hath infatuated many a thousand of men ( otherwise not irrational nor ungracious ) and brought divers whole Churches to such perplexities and confusions , that they lie to this day entangled , unable to disengage themselves of those snares and fetters , that ( as all piety and reason do command ) they may joyn cordially their whole strength with their Brethren against the common enemy . In our flight from Rome , he got some perswaded to stand too soon , before they had past the Territories of the Whore , and the Line of her Communication : Others he wrought to the contrary perswasion , he made them run on too long , not onely to the utmost Line of Errour , but also far beyond all the bounds both of Charity and Truth : Hence our greatest Woes , all our Discords and mutual Wounds have sprung from these two Fountains : This is the true original of our diversion from following the enemy , to attend the worst of Wars , our Civil and Domestike Combats . By a very evil advice , Luther and his followers stuck at the later parts of Reformation ; they could not down with the whole Body ; and in this their sensible infirmity , they became utterly impatient of all contradiction : That Calvin and his Brethren should go beyond them to cry down a corporal presence of Christ in the bread of the Sacrament , to remove Images from Churches , to put out of the Worship a world of idle Ceremonies , it was to them a matter of high disdain , and a Quarrel , which yet is not dead , but continueth transmitted from the fathers to their children of this our Generation . Who would not have thought that the rivers and seas of Germane blood which this last Age have run in a good part out of this spring , might have been more then sufficient to have drowned all such Quarrels in a much more implacable Nation ? On the other hand , Nicholas Stock and Thomas Muncer , with their intemperate zeal , ran themselves so far out of breath , that their followers to this day could never be content to be circumscribed within the bounds of any moderation : They and their posterity the Anabaptists , under the colour of extreme promoting even to praecipitation , have been the greatest retarders of the work of Reformation ; for beside their own falling off , and separating from all the reformed Party ; yea , their cruel invading by Fire and Sword , without any mercy , all their dissenting neighbours ; their frantick extravagancies became so terrible scandals to the remnant of Papists , that no one thing did so much tie their heart to Rome , and avert them from entertaining any good thoughts of that Religion which to them appeared the root whence so cursed branches had sprung up . Both those bitter roots were quickly transplanted from Germany to England , where hitherto they have brought forth exceeding ill fruits , albeit not altogether so pernicious and plentiful as in that ground where the hand of the envious man at first did sow them . Cranmer , Ridley , and some others of the prime Confessors and Martyrs of England , receiving their first light from Wittenberg , and keeping still more correspondence with their acquaintance in higher Germany , then with Calvin , or any of the French Divines , did follow the Lutherane Principle , howbeit not in the Doctrine wherein M●lancthon , Bucer , Martyr , and the rest of Luthers best disciples did at that time leave their Master ; yet so much in the Discipline , Worship and Ceremonies , as that their great incogitancy hath cost England very dear to this day ; for this was the chief spring of all the wofull Divisions which since have rent our bowels of all the grievous persecutions which have undone many , and vexed more of the godly , and banished far from their Countrey some thousands of very precious souls ; and at last , by the craft of some Sinons , this became the Trojane horse , to carry in its belly , and let down in the midst of our Citie and Temple , the whole Popery of Rome , and Tyranny of Constantinople , in a way of so deep policy and mighty strength , that onely the wisedom of God was able to discover , and when discovered , his Arm alone was strong enough to break that snare . Whosoever is unwilling to give to God this glory , we must say he is unacquainted with the counsels , and unattentive to the actions both of God and men , which these by-past yeers in this Isle , upon a high Stage , have been acted , albeit sometimes within , and sometimes without the Curtain . The other Root of Anabaptism hath always been sending up to us ungracious fruits , and at this hour is very instrumental to our Woes . When Cartwright , Hildersham , Travers , and many other gracious Divines , by the blessing of God upon their great diligence , had undermined and well-neer overthrown the Episcopal Seas , and all the Cathedral Ceremonies ; incontinent the Generation of the Separatists did start up , and put such retardances in the way of that gracious Reformation , as yet remain , and , except by the hand of God , will not be gotten removed . It is true , the malignancy of the Episcopal party , and emulation of the Separatists themselves , would make Cartwright and his friends the old Unconformists , to be the Fathers of that Sect ; notwithstanding whoever is acquainted with the Times , or will be at the pains , with any consideration , to confer the Tenents of both Parties , or who will advert the issue and sequele of both ways , cannot but pronounce Cartwright and all his followers the Unconformists , very free from the unhappinesse of procreating this Bastard : That ill-fac'd childe will father it self ; the Lineaments of Anabaptism are clear and distinct in the face of Brownism . The Doctrine of the Anabaptists , who in great number fled over to England , when for their abomina●le and horrible Crimes , by Fire , and Water , and Sword , they were chased out of both the Germanies , is so like , and in many things so much the same with the Doctrine of the Brownists , that the derivation of the one from the other , seems to be very rational . Nothing more like then that as Morellius did learn from the disciples of Muncer his Ecclesiastike Anarchy , whereby he troubled the Church of France , till by Beza and Sadael , in the General Assemblies of that Kingdom , he was confounded , and his Anabaptistike follies exploded ; so that Brown and Bolton did learn in the same School , that very ravery of Morellius , and many other the like , by the which , about the same time , and ever since , they have pitifully vexed the Church of England . That Brownism is a native branch of Anabaptism , is also evidenced by the frequent Transition of many from the one to the other . The dissolution of Ice , Snow , or any other vapour into water , argues strongly for their original from that Element . The ordinary running over of Separatists to the Anabaptists , demonstrates clearly enough who were their fathers of old , and who their best beloved Brethren this day . But passing the Kinred and Pedigree , let us consider the Family it self , and the persons of greatest note that yet have appeared therein . The first Separatist I read of , was one Bolton , a man by whom his followers can have small credit ; for the finger of Gods Justice stirring in his conscience , made the sense of his Errours so grievous to his soul , that not onely he did publikely at Pauls Crosse recant them , but thereafter was so dogged with a desperate Remorse , that he rested not , till by hanging of himself he had ended his miserable days . The truth of the Story is confessed by themselves : That Bolton was a Minister of an old separate Congregation before Browne : That he did recant his Separation , and hang himself , Robinson ▪ the best Advocate for that party , doth liberally acknowledge in his Justification , p. 50 ( A ) The horrour of this remarkable Vengeance did not deter Robert Browne , first a Schoolmaster in Southwark , and then a Preacher at Islington ●eer London , to take up that banner of Separation , which ●od ▪ as with a Bolt from heaven , had wrung out of the hands of miserable Bolton ; albeit that cause did thrive no better with him then with his predecessor . When this rash young man ; for old he could not be in the 1580 yeer of God , when he was the prime Leader of that Sect , having but lately died : when he , I say , had gathered a separate Congregation , and drawn up for the defence of his Way these Writings , whence ever since the best Arguments for that Schism are drawn ; ( B ) they went over to enjoy their liberty to Middleburgh of Zeland : But behold the wrath of God following them at the heels ; when there was no disturbance from without , they fell to such jarring among themselves , that soon they broke all to pieces ; the most turned Anabaptists , Brown himself returned to England , recanted his Brownism , received a Parsonage at the hand of a Bishop : The course of his life , to his deep old age , was so extremely scandalous , that more then ordinary charity is needfull to perswade that ever he was led with a good spirit . I have heard it from reverend Ministers , that he was a common beater of his poor old wife , and would not stick to defend publikely this his wicked practice ; also , that he was an open profaner of the Sabbath ; and that his injustice , in not paying the small pittance he was indebted to him whom lazinesse in his Calling made him to keep for the supply of the cure of his Parsonage , did bring him to prison , in the which , for that very cause , he continued till death . When the wickednesse of this man is objected to Robinson his Scholar , he is so far from denial , that under his hand he testifieth it abundantly . ( C ) The third Master of this Sect was Barrow , the most bitter and clamorous Censurer of all the Reformed Churches of any that yet hath put Pen to Paper , chuse whom you will of the most despiteful Jesuites : let their Books which are most besprinkled with Gall , be compared with Barrows Discovery , this to my taste is nothing sweeter then the bitterest of them all : And yet there is small reason why with so great arrogance he should have taken in his hand the Censors rod , if all be true of him which his opposites object . However , before he could gather any formed Congregation , his invectives against the Faith , Baptism and Laws of England were so excessive , that Queen Elizabeth , impatient of his Contumelies , by the evil advice of the cruel Prelates about her , caused him in a morning to be hanged on the Tower-hill . The fourth Leader of this Way was Master Johnson , who , affraid at Barrows execution , got over , with the Church he had gathered , to Amsterdam , and there for many yeers was Pastor to the first setled Congregation of Brownists we read of . This man , with Ainsworth his Doctor , sent out to all the reformed Churches the Confession of their Faith , in the yeer 1602. But long it was not till it appeared to the world that no better spirit did reign in that company then in the former Societies of this way . For incontinent three shamefull Schisms one upon the neck of another , broke out among them : First , many of them turned Anabaptists , and were excommunicated . Secondly , Master Johnson fell to so great oddes , first with his brother Master George , for small matters , and afterward with his father , that he excommunicated them both , and was cursed by both , when he had rejected peremptorily the mediation of the Presbytery of Amsterdam for reconciliation . Thirdly , the remnant of the company , a little after , rent in two , upon needlesle Questions : Master Ainsworth the Doctor with his half , did excommunicate Johnson and his half , who were not long behinde , for they also did quickly excommunicate Ainsworth and all his followers . Hereupon , the War betwixt these two handfuls of people became so sharp , that Amsterdam could not keep them both ; for Johnson , with his side of the house , got away to Emden , where , after his death , that little company , as I suppose , dissolved and vanished . Ainsworths's company , after his death , remained long without all Officers , very like to have dissolved : yet at last , after much strife , they did chuse one Master Cann for their Pastor , but could not agree , til very lately , upon any other Officer , and even yet they live without an Eldership , as they did before without a Pastor . The most of these things are the confessions of the party , ( D ) the rest are notorious , and will not be denied . The weight and evidence of Gods hand against Johnson and Ainsworth had so far disgraced that Sect , that in the opinion of the most no man would ever more look after it : Yet two other Divines of very good parts , did set under their shoulders to support it for some longer time ; but so , that in the end they did undermine and undo it , though in a contrary way . Master Smith ( a man as I have heard of right eminent parts ) falling to that side , and writing against the use of the Lords Prayer , was convinced in a publike meeting by Master Hildersham , and others , ( for the Unconformists alwayes had the one eye no lesse intent upon the Separatists , then the other upon Episcopacy ) notwithstanding Master Smith ( for all his conviction , and open profession upon his knees of his full satisfaction ) did relapse , and by his perswasion , moved a great company to follow him out of England to Ley in Holland . There he persevered not long in concord with his Elder Brethren of the Separation , but quickly accused them all of Idolatry in their worship , for looking upon their Bibles in the time of Preaching , and on their Psalters in the time of singing ; ( E ) and of Antichristianism in their Government , because in their Presbytery they joyned to Pastors , other two Officers , Doctours and ruling Elders , which to him were humane inventions . Neither here did the spirit of errour permit him long to stand : But as in the Preface of his Book of difference from the old Separatists , he professeth a resolution of inconstancy : ( F ) So accordingly he did practise , falling from Brownism to Anabaptism . And as ordinary Brownism , when he was a Brownist , did not please his taste , without his own refinings ; so turning Anabaptist , the common sorts of that way did not please him ; ( though of the Anabaptists there be more kindes then of any other Sect this day extant ) yet by none of them all , would his conscience permit him to be Rebaptised ; but he needs must Rebaptise himself , and so draw on the just infamy of a Sebaptist ( G ) . For a recompence of this wantonnesse in erring , behold how the just Lord permitted Satan to lead him , yet one step further : It is not onely a common report , but I have heard it from the gravest and most approved Divines of the Kingdom , That upon his death-bed he became a Preacher of his own perfect righteousnesse , if not a professed Arrian . An example full of horrour which God hath set forth , if men will be so wise as to be disciplined in the persons of others , to bridle the petulant wits of this age , who make it , if not their pastime , yet their exercise and glory to impugn , by their Sophisms , the setled Tenents and practices of all Christians before them . Master Smiths progresse and end ought to circumscribe their luxuriant spirits within the circle of some moderation , lest all the glory of their new inventions be crown'd with some shameful conclusion . When the infamous practices of Master Smith are objected to his party , they have no leaf of excuse wherwith to cover them . ( H ) The other supporter of languishing Brownisme , in its dying dayes , was Master Robinson , the most learned , polished , and modest spirit that ever that Sect enjoyed : it had been truely a marvel if such a man had gone on to the end a rigid Separatist . This man having gone over from England to Leyden , with a separate Congregation , did write for a time very handsome Apologies and justifications of that evil way ; but , Doctor Ames and Master Parker compassionating the man , and pitying that so excellent parts should be so ill employed , laboured him so by Conferences and Letters , that there was great appearance , if his days had continued , he might have proved a happie instrument for the extinguishing and total abolition of that Schism : but God in his wisedom intending some farther use of that great evil , was pleased to take him away in the beginning of his good Work. He came back indeed the one half of the way ; he ruined the rigid Separation , and was the Author of a Semi-separatism , printing in his later times against his former Books , the lawfulnesse of communicating with the Church of England in the Word and Prayer , albeit not in the Sacraments and Discipline : This was a fair Bridge , at least a fair Arch of a Bridge for union ; but the man being removed by death before he could perfect what he had begun , his new Doctrine , though it was destructive to his old Sect , yet it became an occasion of a new one not very good . It was the womb and seed of that lamentable Independency which in Old and New-England hath been the fountain of many evils already , though no more should ensue , as anon shall be declared : Onely here we observe , that the last two best-gifted Leaders of the Brownists , have been the reall Overthrowers of that Way : for ever since the time of their conduct , these of England whose humour carried them out of the bosome of their Mother-Church , have turned either to Smiths Anabaptism , or to Robinsons Semi-separating Independency . These kindes are multiplied exceedingly ; but for the old Brownists , their number either at London or Amsterdam , is but very small ; and their way is become contemptible not onely to all the rest of the world , but to their own children also ; even they begin to heap coles of contumelies upon their parents heads , as may be seen in the Elogies which both Master Cotton ( I ) and the five Apologists are pleased to give them in Print : ( K ) Yea , so much are these children ashamed of their fathers , that they usually take it for a contumely to be called after their name . No Independent will take it well at any mans hand , to be called a Brownist either in whole , or in the smallest part . The Testimonies . ( A ) Robinsons Justification , p. 50. It is true that Bolton was ( though not the first in this way ) an Elder of a separate Church in the beginning of Queen Elizabeths days ; and falling away from his holy profession , recanted the same at Pauls Crosse , and afterwards hanged himself , as Judas did . ( B ) Giffard against the Donatists , about the beginning . Whosoever shall read Brown his Books , and peruse all his Scholars writings , shall see that they have no sharp arrow but which is drawn out of his Quiver . ( C ) Robinsons Justif . p. 50. Now touching Brown , it is true , as he forsook the Lord , so the Lord forsook him , else he had never so returned back into Egypt , as he did : And for the wicked things which Master B. affirmeth he did in this way , it may well be as he saith ; and the more wicked things he committed in this course , the lesse like he was to continue long in it . ( D ) Johnsons Enquiry , p. 63. About Thirteen yeers since , this Church , through persecution in England , was driven to come into these Countreys : A while after , divers of them fell into the Heresies of the Anabaptists ; and so persisting , were excommunicated by the rest : Then a while after , many others , yea too many , though not the half , fell into a Schism from the rest ; and so many as continued therein , were cast out . Also , Robinsons Justification , p. 51. True it is , that George Johnson , together with his father , taking his part , were excommunicated by the Church for contention arising at the first upon no great occasion ; whereupon many bitter and reproachfull terms were uttered both in word and writing . It is to us a just cause of Humiliation all the days of our lives , that we have given , and do give , by our differences , such advantages . ( E ) Smiths Differences , p. 4. The reading out of a Book , is no part of Spiritual Worship , but the invention of the Man of Sin. Books and Writings are in the nature of Pictures or Images , and therefore in the nature of Ceremonies , and so by consequent the reading of a Book is Ceremonial : The holy Scriptures are not to be retained as helps before the eyes in the time of Spiritual Worship : It is unlawful to have the Book before the eyes in singing of Psalms . The Presbytery of the Church is uniform : the treeformed Presbytery consisting of three kindes , Pastors , Teachers , and Elders , is not Gods Ordinance , but Antichristian , and the image of the Beast . ( F ) Bernards plain Evidences , p. 19. Smith in his Epistle before his Differences , because he is found so unconstant , to wipe away the shame thereof , and to cut off offence for afterward ; he without shame professeth to be unconstant , and desireth that ever his last writing should be taken as his present judgement . ( G ) Ibid. He hath founded a new Church ; he hath , if ye will believe him , recovered the true Baptism , and the true matter and form of a true Church , which now onely is to be found pure among a company of Sebaptists . Master Smith will hold ever this word Se to himself , for going into Brownism ; he was a Separatist , he held differing opinions from them ; and now that he is in Anabaptism , he is a Sebaptist , he wholly goeth not with that heretical Sect. ( H ) Robinsons Justif . p. 53. Master Smith his instability , and wantonnesse of wit , is his sin , and our crosse . ( I ) Vide caput tertium O. ( K ) Ibidem . CHAP. II. The Doctrine of the BROWNISTS . THe peculiar Tenents of the Brownists wherein they differ from other Protestants , are many : Those that occur to my minde from some slight and cursory reading of some of their Books , shall briefly and plainly be set down ; but with this premonition , That every thing mentioned , be not taken for an Article of Brownism ; for it is needful at some times to interlace Tenents which are common to them with others , for the clearing of those which they have peculiar . Their differences run most upon the Constitution and Government of the Church : They have also divers Singularities about the Circumstances and Parts of the Service of God ; also concerning the Magistrate , and Schools , and divers other things . Without affectation , or curious search of Method , we shall propound matters as they come to hand . Concerning the Constitution of the Church , consider their judgement , first , what they think of others , then what of themselves . All other Churches they condemn , so far , as to professe and practise a Separation from them . The edge of their Arguments , is usually directed against the Church of England alone ; but when their Doctrine or Practise is looked upon a little more neer , it appears they shoot their Bolts at all other Churches in the world which refuse their Way . For the Church of England , they say it ought not to be called a Church ; or at best , that it is a false and Antichristian Church , out of the which every one ( though not persecuted ) must flee , as they would avoid damnation . ( A ) Sometimes , in their calm mood , they will give better words , and acknowledge it to be a true Church , That the Doctrine and Sacraments thereof are true , That many thousands of its members are gracious and elect people . ( B ) But their ordinary language is of another strain , to wit , That the Church of England is a meer Harlot , divorced from Christ , ( C ) That the Worship thereof is grosse Idolatry , and the Service of the devil , ( D ) That all the members thereof are unclean beasts , and the limbs of Antichrist , ( E ) That her best Preachers that preach most for Reformation , are but Pharisees and Deceivers , ( F ) That the Faith , Grace and Comfort which by their Ministery they seem to bring to the hearts of the hearers , is but meer delusion , ( G ) That their Sacraments are Seals , not of Grace , but of the wrath of God , ( H ) That all Communion with her , even in the Word and Prayer , is to be forsaken . ( I ) The Unconformists did always zealously plead against the Corruptions of that Church , but never against the truth of her being , or the comfort of her Communion : When by the force of persecution they were driven out , then they did flee : Of their own accord they did never separate , but were ever most glad to live and die in her bosome , willing to partake of her Worship and Sacraments , whenever they were permitted to dissent in Doctrine , and to abstain in practice , from those things which they conceived to be corruptions . ( K ) Concerning other Reformed Churches , though free both of Liturgies and Bishops , and many other of the English stumbling-blocks , notwithstanding all their Reformation , yet they pronounce their Worship to be idolatrous , ( L ) their Government tyrannous and Antichristian , ( M ) yea , their very Constitution both in matter and form to be so vitious , ( N ) that with a good conscience they cannot communicate with any of them , ( O ) that the reformed Presbyteries and Synods are no better then the English Episcopacy ; ( P ) yea , to Episcopacy they are so favourable , that they professe their willingnesse to acknowledge all their Civil Power , and much of their Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction ; ( Q 1. ) that the Presbyterian Divines have ever been as evil as Episcopal ; ( Q 2. ) that the vitious constitution and government of the most reformed Churches in Europe , hath flowed from the ignorance and obstinacy of unhappie Calvin . ( R 1. ) We must not be deceived with their pleasant words , when they make fair professions of their hearty agreement in so many things with the other Reformed Churches , and of their willingnesse to communicate with them both in Word and Sacraments . ( R 2. ) These flatteries are contradictory both to their Doctrine and Practice ; for when they had left England , they were so far from joyning with any of the Reformed , that they ever erected new Churches after their own way , and made it an open and avowed cause of Excommunication for any of their Members to communicate with the Churches of Holland , among whom they did live ; ( R 3 ) also the crimes of the Church of Holland , which they cry out upon , are such which none of the Reformed Divines do condemn . ( S ) On the other side , the Nonconformists whom the Episcopal persecution did banish out of England , were ever well content without erecting of a new Church , to joyn themselves as Members to any of the forrain Churches , Scottish , Dutch , or French , according as they understood their Language , or had occasion of abode among them . Thus they do judge of others . As for the form of that Tabernacle which they professe to build for themselves , thus we may conceive it : The matter or members of that Church , they avow to be Saints ; but the Members of other Churches , they pronounce them for the most part to be wicked and flagitious . ( T ) The Nonconformists with all the reformed , are willing to admit of no others to the Lords Table but these who are Saints by calling , in whom they require three qualifications : First , That they have a good measure of knowledge , and professe to beleeve the truth . Secondly , That in their life and conversation , they be without scandal . Thirdly , That they be submissive to the Discipline of the Church : But the Brownists presse a fourth qualification ; Were a mans profession never so fair , and his knowledge never so great : In all parts of Doctrine , let him be most Orthodox , and in his Conversation most harmlesse , and inoffensive ; were he never so willing to joyn in all the Ordinances of God , and to be governed according to the strictest Discipline of Christ ; notwithstanding all this , they count him not qualified to be a Church Member , except he declare publikely in the face of the Congregation , such clear and certain signes of his real Sanctification , and true Regeneration , as gives full satisfaction , not onely to the Minister and Elders , and many of the people , but to all and every one , or at least the major part of the Church . ( V ) If any prophane person should be admitted , he should quickly so far pollute the whole Church , that every Member thereof must needs become partaker of his sins ; ( X ) And if upon admonition they did not excommunicate him , they themselves ought to be separated from , as an infected and leprous Society . ( Y ) They tell us yet more , that not onely the profanenesse of one person doth pollute the whole Church , but any one sin or errour of any one Member , though godly and regenerate , if after admonition he continue therein , and be not excommunicate , doth so defile the whole , that it must be separated from . ( Z ) To distinguish here betwixt sins greater and lesser , to make some errours Fundamental , and some preter-Fundamental , it is to them a following of the Papists in their absurd distinction of mortal and venial sins ; the least Errour joyned with obstinacie , to them is an Heresie , and a just cause of Separation . ( AA ) They acknowledge it is the fancy of the Anabaptists to separate for every fault and errour ; but that which alone displeaseth them in this fancy , is a fault whereof the Anabaptists seem not to be guilty , the not advertising of the Church of the fault and errour of the Member they complain of before they separate ; If this neglect be helped , the rest of the fancy they seem to approve . ( BB ) Thus much for the matter of their Church ; the form of it , not Accidental , but Essential and Constitutive , they place in an explicite Covenant , ( CC ) wherein , all and every one of the Members , by a voluntary Association , without the Authority of either Magistrate , or Minister , do binde themselves under a solemn Oath to walk in the wayes of the Gospel . ( DD. ) When two or three , or some very few , ( for they require no more then seven to a full and perfect Congregation ; ( EE ) and they professe it unlawful to admit any more then can commodiously at one time in one place , partake of all the Ordinances . ) ( FF ) If when these few , I say , have departed not onely from the English , and the rest of the Reformed , but also from every Church of their own way , wherein they finde the least errour or sin of any of the Members , whereof they have complained , not to be amended , either by the Repentance or the Excommunication of the party : ( GG ) The Association of these men , thus separate into a Covenant , is the essential form of their Church . But the association must be so voluntary and free , as not to wait for the countenance of any Authority , either Ecclesiastick , or Civil ; to supplicate the Magistrate for his favour in the gathering of a new Church , is to them a sin ; ( HH ) and to erect a Church by the help of any Minister , to them is a contradiction : For the Church newly erected , makes the Minister ; but no Minister can gather or erect a Church . ( II ) If a person , who elsewhere hath been a Minister , become the Author or Instrument of erecting a Church , he is not then a Minister , but a meer private man ▪ till the Church so erected by a new call and ordination by themselves , doth make him again a Minister . Unto their Church so constituted in matter and form , were their number never so small , before it attain to any Officer , either Pastor , or Doctor , or Elder , they ascribe great power and fair priviledges ; not onely the power of Doctrine , but of Ordination , and all Jurisdiction ; even a full right to all the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven , and every priviledge of any visible Church , how perfect so ever . ( KK ) This their new Church , they will have to elect the Pastor , and all other Officers ; if a Pastor should come to them by the presentation of a Patron , or nomination of a Presbytery , however they did not oppose , yea , did consent to his admission , yet if they were not the Electors , and first Nominators , the man should be an intruder and a Woolf , whom they might not lawfully hear . ( LL ) The Pastor being chosen , and that out of their own number , usually some Artificer , or Tradesman ( for they do not require Letters in their Pastors : ) and so far in their Elections , they tie themselves to their own Members , that if any other were found meet and willing to be an Officer among them , he must first enter into their Covenant , and become a Member before he were capable of any Office. ( MM ) When I say they have elected him a Pastor , the same , and no other then who did elect , do give him Ordination ; for the right and exercise of Ordination , ( NN ) they ascribe to the people , that is , according to Ainsworth , and others , ( if we beleeve Johnson ) every Member of the flock , even Women and Children . ( OO ) But according to Johnsons minde , onely the men of the flock , excluding Women and Children ; yet including the meanest and most ignorant of all the men who are Communicants : To these they ascribe the power of Ordination , who in the exercise of it , appoint some of their number , whom they think fittest to ordain the Pastor , that is , to examine him in all the needful qualifications of his life and doctrine , to exhort him to all the parts of his duty , publikely to pray for him , and at last to lay hands upon his head . ( PP ) The Pastor so elected and ordained , becomes a servant , not onely of Christ , but of that flock from whom he hath ( as they speak ) originally ( QQ ) all his power to Preach , or celebrate the Sacraments , or to do any other part of his Office : wherein if he fail , any one of the people hath power to admonish and reprove him publikely ; ( RR ) and the greater part of the people in any Congregation agreeing ( suppose they were four , when the whole makes seven ) have full power to depose and Excommunicate him ( SS ) ; much more have they power to cognosce , and definitively to determine upon the nature of Heresie , Superstition , Errour , or of any crime which procures these censures . When the major part of the people have cast out the Minister , and all the Officers , and so many of the flock as adhere to them , no part of their power by this ejection is lost , still they keep their full right to all the Ordinances of Christ ; any of them who is thought able , may prophecy , that is , publikely expound the Word , and apply it for instruction , reproof , comfort , and all other uses : ( TT ) Any of them may pray in the Congregation , any may Ordain , any may Excommunicate ; they give expressely a full power to every one of admonition and rebu●e , yea , of censuring so far the whole , that if they refuse to follow the just admonition of any one , he ought to denounce the judgements of God publikely against them all , and separate from them as from an obstinate and cursed society . ( VV ) The onely question remains about the Sacraments ; all of them agree , that the smallest and weakest Congregation may choose and ordain one of their own number when ever they will , to be Pastor , and so to celebrate the Sacraments to the rest ; ( XX ) ●ut the most of them say , that unlesse they have appointed a Pastor for that end , none of the rest can lawfully celebrate a Sacrament : ( YY ) Yet others of them make a Quaere hereof ; ( ZZ ) for say they , since the Church without Officers hath the free exercise of all other power , in Preaching , Prayer , and Censures ; why may not the like be said of the Sacraments ? These men after their scrupling for some time , as their custome is , come up at last to conclude and practise celebrating Sacraments without any Pastorall charge , of Baptism it is certain ; for Master Smith professing himself a meer private man , having renounced his former Ministry and Baptism also , took upon him to baptise himself ; and who lawfully may celebrate the one Sacrament , may as lawfully celebrate the other . When all the power is ascribed by them to their Church , yet peremptorily they deny to it the power to solemnize marriage ; ( AAA ) for marriage to them is not onely a contract meerly civil , but such a one as concerns the Church nothing at all ; so they remit it wholly to the Magistrate , or else to the Parents , ( BBB ) to be solemnized in private Families ; and as their marriage is private , so likewise must their Divorces , without the cognizance either of Magistrate or Minister . ( CCC ) They were wont to teach that adultery , did so far annul marriage , that it was a sin , and the cause of excommunication for the innocent party to forgive , and cohabit any longer with the party nocent ; albeit , they professe their retractation hereof , making it now fr●e for the innocent party , either to depart or abide with the nocent , as they finde it expedient , and all this without any legal processe . ( DDD ) The power which they grant to their smallest Congregations , is very great ; but they adde one circumstance to it that makes it high above measure ; All the power of their smallest Congregations must be Independent and Soveraign , that is , absolutely Supreme upon Earth , depending immediately upon Christ ; and none else ; for they deny all Ecclesiastick Authority above a particular Congregation , which goes beyond a meer advice and councell . ( EEE ) So that if the most part of a people in a Congregation should turn Heretical , and extremely wicked , excommunicating their Pastor , their Doctor , their Elders , and whole Consistory , onely for truth and righteousnesse : For all this , no persons on Earth , not an Oecumenick Synod shall have any more power to controle them , then the meanest of their own servants ; for to the meanest servant they give power to admonish , reprove , rebuke , and to separate from the whole Church , when it is obstinate in any evil , and more power then this they will not give to the greatest , and best Synods , over a Congregation of a very few , sometimes very ignorant and weak persons . ( FFF ) They do not deny that Presbyteries and Synods are the Ordinances of God , which have many profitable uses ; ( G G G ) but the Synods they allow of , must have these conditions . First , They will have them onely occasional and elective , not set or ordinary , but as any Church shall have need to call together whom they think meet for their help and advice , in what matters they think good to propound . ( H H H ) Secondly , The Members of their Synod must not be onely Ministers and Elders , and men cloathed with Commissions ; but all who please to come without exclusion of any . ( III ) Thirdly , All who come , as well People as Officers , must have free liberty , both of debate and voting decisively . ( KKK ) Fourthly , Nothing must go by number , or pluralitie of voices . ( LLL ) Fifthly , In their Synods there must be no Moderator , no Prolocutor for the ordering of the Action . ( MMM ) Sixthly , They will not be content that any Synod should have the least power of jurisdiction to censure the wickedest Heretike who is infecting all about him far and neer with the vilest Errors . ( NNN ) In these their fancies they please themselves so well , that they avow the very Crown , Scepter , and Throne of Christs Kingdom to consist in them : ( OOO ) That the Churches so constituted and governed , are nothing lesse then the new Jerusalem coming down from Heaven : ( PPP ) That all the Reformed Churches for their aberration from this Constitution and Government , are either no Churches at all , or but Babylonish and Adulterous Churches , or at best , but corrupt Societies from which a Separation is necessary . In things concerning the Worship , they have crotchets not a few upon the Maxime that all Monuments of Idolatry must be abolished precisely , according to the Laws of the old Testament ; they will have all Churches that were builded in the time of Popery , made level with the ground , ( QQQ ) their Bells to be broken , yea , all Bells to be unlawfull , being Humane and Popish inventions . ( RRR ) Not so much as a Church-yard must be kept up for Burial , but all must bury in the fields . ( SSS ) What ever of old was dedicated to the maintenance of the Worship of God , they will have it all rejected as an Instrument of Idolatry : But herein they seem to deal scarce fairly with the Law ; for howsoever they presse the casting down of the Churches , the breaking of the Bells , the abolishing of the Idols , and all that belonged thereunto ; ( TTT ) yet they do leave to the Magistrate , or to any , who in this are serviceable to their humour , the rich rewards of the Gold , Silver , Brasse , Vestments , Timber , Stone , Lands and Rents , which belonged to these Churches , to be possessed by them with a very good Conscience , and without the least scruple of any Sacriledge . ( VVV ) However they do maintain , that all the Officers of their Church , not onely Pastors , and Doctors , but every one of their other four sorts of Ministers , Elders , Deacons , Helpers , Widows , ( XXX ) ought in Conscience , and by Divine right to be ( by the Congregations , which they serve ) ( YYY ) provided for ; yet they are so far from permitting any of them to enjoy the least portion of the old Rents of the Church , that they avow Parsonages and Viccarages , Glebes , and Manses , to be altogether unlawfull . ( ZZZ ) That for a Minister to crave any Tithes , or for any man for all that either Laws or Magistrates can command , to pay any Tithes , is a sin which abolishes from Christ . ( AAAA ) They adde further , That all set-maintenance to Church Officers , is against the Gospel ; that it is the Will of Christ , that Ministers now be provided for in that same way as himself and his Apostles were of old , onely by the voluntary Contributions and meer alms of the people : They d●ive on this point so far , as to come up in termes to the Anabaptist● Tenent of making all goods common . ( BBBB ) Their hatred of Idolatry is so great , that they professe it unlawfull , so much as to mention in any civil way , the names of places or times that carry any footstep of any ancient Idoll , Saint Andrew , Saint John , Peter or Pauls Church : Munday , Tuesday , Wednesday , Sunday ; January , February , March ; those and the like words to them are profane and unlawful ( CCCC ) : The very yeer of God displeaseth them ; they will have it called , The yeer of the Saints last patience ( DDDD ) . They will have no Circumstance in the Worship determined , not so much as by custom , much lesse by Law ; there must be no limitation of Preaching either to time or place . Pulpits they scorn , they call them Priviledged Tubs ( EEEE ) . They laugh at preaching to an Hour-glasse ( FFFF ) . To preach in a Gown , is to them little better then a Surplice , or a Fryars Coul. That Penitents in their publike confession should stand in a peculiar place , or in any habit diverse from ordinary , is to them a matter of mockery ( GGGG ) . As for the parts of the Worship , in all of them they have some one singularity or other : They make all set-prayer , the very Lords Prayer it self used Prayer-wise , not onely to be inconvenient and unlawful , but to be Idolatry , and the worship of the devil HHHH ; howbeit Master Robinson here corrects his companions , and professeth that set-prayer , in some cases , is very lawful worship IIII. The singing of Psalms in meeter , not being formal Scripture , but a Paraphrase , to them is unlawful ( KKKK ) ; much more the singing of any other songs in the Church , which are not expresse Scripture . They permit to sing Psalms in Prose , not as an act of immediate praise LLLL ; for set-Praise would be as idolatrous as set-Prayer ; but as a matter of instruction and comfort , whereby God is glorified , as by all other actions , whether natural , moral , or spiritual , which are done in faith . But herein Master Smith is wiser then his fellows , telling us , That all Songs in the Church out of a Book , whether in Verse or Prose , are Idolatry ( MMMM ) ; yet he admits of singing such Psalms as the Spirit dictates to any person immediately without Book ( NNNN ) . It seems the Brownists at Amsterdam have recanted their error in this point ; for all of them sing now in strange tunes the Psalms in meeter , of Ainsworths exceeding harsh Paraphrase . Preaching of the Word , to them is no Pastoral act , but is common , not onely to all the Officers , but to every gifted Brother of the Flock ( OOOO ) . The word Sacrament to them is traditional , corrupt , and not to be used ( PPPP ) . The Baptism of the English Church they make to be vain , and nul , the seal of no grace , but onely of wrath and condemnation ( QQQQ ) ; yet they will not have it repeated . They teach , that the Lords Supper should be celebrated every Lords day ( RRRR ) : So preparation-Sermons before , and Sermons for Thanksgiving after the Lords Table , to them are needlesse . They will have all to sit at the Lords Table with their Hats on : uncovering of the head in the act of receiving , to them is Idolatry ( SSSS ) . In this the present practice at Amsterdam contradicts their Doctrine ; for however they sit covered in time of all the reading and discourse ; yet when it comes to the participation of the elements , every man , during the time of his eating and drinking , sits uncovered . They count it lawful to joyn with the Lords Table Love-feasts ( TTTT ) . They reject all Catechisms , being set , and so unlawful forms of instruction ( VVVV ) . After a member is once received amongst them , they enquire no more for his knowledge , having once gotten satisfaction , at his admission to Membership , of his sufficient knowledge . The Apostles Creed they detest , as an old Patchery of evil stuff ( XXXX ) : Christs descent into hell , they count a blasphemous Article ( YYYY ) . They reject all publike reading of the Word which is not backed with present Exposition ( ZZZZ ) : They do not any way scruple the Office of Readers and Expounders ; for they give full liberty of publike and ordinary Preaching to any gifted man of the Flock , though he have no Office. When the exercise of Reading , Expounding , Singing of Psalms , Praying and Preaching by the Pastor , is ended , they will have one , two , three , or four , to prophesie in order AAAAA ; and all to have a free liberty of continuing so long as they think meet . After all this is done , they have yet another exercise , wherein , by way of conference , questioning and dispu●ation , every one of the Congregation may propound publikely , and presse their Scruples , Doubts and Objections against any thing which that day they have heard BBBBB . And , as if all these Exercises were not enough to tire out a spirit of Iron , the most of them being repeated again in the afternoon , for a conclusion of all , they bring in the laborious and long work of their Discipline , for which the whole Flock must stay till they have heard , debated and discerned every cause that concerns either the Officers , or any of the people , whether in Doctrine or Manners CCCCC . Concerning the Magistrate , Master Brown teacheth , that he hath no right to meddle at all with any matter of Religion , but to permit the liberty and free choice of Religion to the conscience of every one of his Subjects DDDDD . The most of Browns followers do leave in this their Master , making it a great part of the Christian Magistrates Office to suppresse , within their own Bounds , Idolatry and False doctrine EEEEE ; To compel all their Subjects , if they will not be perswaded , to hear the Word preached , albeit no way to enter themselves members of any Church , or to hinder any to enter in any Church they will , or to erect new Churches of their own framing FFFFF . Further , if the Magistrate be a member of any Church , they will have him , were he the King himself , to be so far subject to their Church-Censures , that a little small Congregation shall have power , upon his obstinacy in any sin or errour , to excommunicate him , and that without all delay , without any respect to his Crown , more then if he were the poorest servant of the whole Flock GGGGG ; and , which is worst of all , the Prince his Excommunication by the hands of so small & weak a company , must be without all possible relief ; for he hath no liberty of appeal to any upon earth HHHHH ; an oecumenike Councel may not assay to loose the knot of that Censure which the hand of the Congregation hath tied . But their great Tenent about the Magistracie , is this , That no Prince nor State on the earth hath any Legislative power ; That neither King nor Parliament can make any Law in any thing that concerns either Church or State ; That God alone is the Law-giver ; That the greatest Magistrate hath no other power , but to execute the Laws of God set down in Scripture IIIII ; That the Judicial Law of Moses bindes at this day all the Nations of the world , as well as ever it did the Jews KKKKK : They tell us that whatever God in Scripture hath left free , it may not be bound by any humane Law , whether Civil or Ecclesiastike ; and what God hath bound by any Law in Scripture , they will not have it loosed by the hand of any man. They lay it upon the Magistrate to punish by death , without any dispensation , every Adulterer , every Blasphemer , every Sabbath-breaker , and above all , every Idolater LLLLL. And here is the great danger , that by Idolaters they will have understood , not onely Pagans and Papists , but the far greatest part of all Protestants , all absolutely who are not of their way ; for , the using of a set Prayer , were it the Lords own Prayer , to them is clear Idolatry MMMMM 1. For all this , they will not permit any Magistrate to hang any th●ef at all MMMMM 2. Against the learning of the Times , they make large Invectives ; the Universities , and all the Colledges in them , they will have razed to the ground ; they professe them to be worse then the Monasteries that justly were abolished NNNNN : whatever Arts and Sciences are taught in the Christian Schools , they count them idle and vain : Grammar , Rhetorick , Logick , Philosophy , are all unlawful Arts OOOOO . The Heathen Writers which are used in any Faculty , such as Aristotle , Plato , Cicero , and the like , they would have them all burnt , as the Authors of unlawful Arts. They reject all School-Degrees , such as Batchelors , Masters of Art , Doctors of any faculty PPPPP . They wil have no Students of Divinity QQQQQ . They tell us that youths mis-spend their time , and exceedingly abuse themselves , by studying of those things which usually are recommended unto them as preparations for the Ministery , whether Common places , Commentaries upon Scripture , or Protestant writers of Controversies ; all such Books they will have laid aside RRRRR ; yea , it is their advice to reject all Books but the Bible alone SSSSS . As for Divinity-Disputations , they make large Invectives against them , as Paganish and very sinful Exercises TTTTT ; notwithstanding all this , they proclaim themselves great Patrons of all true Learning VVVVV ; albeit , as yet they have not been pleased to let the world know what kinde of Letters and Books they will be pleased with , when all that hitherto have been known , are laid aside by their perswasion . The Testimonies . A. Barrows Discovery , p. 26. In this estate , what communion is to be held with the Church of England ? What fellowship may the children of God have with such Rebels and Apostates ? Can the name of a Church , without blasphemy unto Christ , be given unto them in these sins ? They then not being under Christs , protection , nor in the state of Grace , while they continue in their sin , I have often wondred how any man of sound judgement could give them the name of a Church . Ibidem , in the Preface . Let the rest no longer tempt God , or be held under the dint of this dreadful Milstone , by any perswasion ; but let them save their souls out of this accursed false Church , and joyn themselves to the faithful servants of Christ with all speed . The Confession , Art. 31. These Assemblies standing thus in confusion , cannot be said truely to have Christ their King , Priest and Prophet , neither in this estate can be esteemed the true , visible , orderly , constitute Church of Christ , whereof the faithful may become or stand members , or have any spiritual Communion with them in their spiritual Worship and Administrations : Therefore are all that would be saved bound by Gods Commandment with speed to come forth out of this Antichristian estate , leaving the suppression of it to the Magistrate , to whom it belongs . A light for the ignorant , p. 8 , 9. This Whorish Citie hath a Body of false Prophets ; whosoever heareth these , or any of these , breaks the first Commandment ; for in hearing and obeying these , they hear and obey the Dragon , Beast and Whore that sent them , and gave them their Authority and Office ; they use some Divine Truths , to help to set a glosse on their Inventions ; but both divine and invented are consecrated and dedicated by the Beast , and administred by his Office. ( B ) Robinsons Apologie , pag. 78. Convenit nobis quatenus reformatis Ecclesiis Belgicis & aliis cum Ecclesia Anglicana in Articulis fidei hujus Ecclesiae nomine scriptis ; idem in his Book of the lawfulnesse of the hearing of the Ministers of the Church of England . Barrows Refutation of Giffard , p. 21. We never doubted but the foundation of God stood firm , the Lord having many thousands of his elect among you known to himself . Idem , in his Discovery , p. 119. The errours and fauls of Baptism being purged by Repentance , it pleases God , in pardoning the faults , to reserve , and not to have repeated the outward action . Their Apologie , p. 93. We gladly embrace the common faith professed in this Land , as most holy and sound : We have a reverend estimation of sundry , and good hope of many hundred thousands in the Land. Their Confession , p. 8. We testifie by these presents to all men , That we have not forsaken any one point of the true , ancient , Apostolike Faith professed in our Land , but hold the same grounds of Christian Religion with them . ( C ) Barrows Discovery , p. 26 There is no cause to doubt but any of Gods servants may avoid that Congregation which rejecteth Gods Word presumptuously , as a wicked Assembly , and an adulterous Church ▪ Ibid. p. 29. I deny these assemblies to be true Churches of Christ , seeing they have broken the Covenant , and cast off the Yoke of Christ . ( D ) Barrows Refutation , p 33. We further conclude from the second Commandment , That whatsoever Worship is devised by man , and whatsoever device of man is put in the Worship of God , it is Idolatry : But a great part , if not the whole Worship of God in your Church , is devised by man. If God be not worshipped with this kinde of Worship : Then , to speak as the Prophets and Apostles do , the devil is worshipped thereby . ( E ) Apologie , p. 54. None can submit unto , or have any spiritual Communion with the Hierarchie aforesaid , but they worship the Beast and his Image , and so make themselves subject to the wrath of God. Barrows Discovery , p. 180. Here would not be forgotten the sweet Psalmodical harmony of the Vultures , Cranes , Owls , Geese ; of the Leopards , Boars , Wolves , Dogs , Swine , Foxes , Goats . Pordon me ; for thus the holy Ghost termeth the profane confused multitudes in false Churches . ( F ) Barrows Discovery , p. 52. Disguised Hypocrites , ravening Wolves , that come to us in sheeps clothing , under the glorious titles of Pastors and Teachers , Ministers of the Gospel , men of great Learning , holy Life , sighers for Reformation ; these Pharisees , these Sectaries are they that mislead the people in their crooked paths of death . Ibid. p 112. No middle course can here be taken ; we must either make the Tree good or evil ; These Ministers of the Church of England are true or false : if false , then deliver they no true Sacraments ; then is all their Administration , Sacraments and Sermons accursed , how holy soever or neer the Truth in outward shew ; then are they the Ministers of Satan , of Antichrist , sent by God in his wrath to deceive and destroy such as are ordained to death ; then ought not the Prince to repair to their Sermons for comfort ; then is all the comfort she taketh there , but delusion , even the deceit of Satan ; then are they seducers who perswade her to go to them , as whereby they draw her to the wrath of God , and imminent danger and inevitable destruction , except she forsake them . ( G ) Vide f. also Barrows Discovery , p. 154. The comfort received from their Preaching , their whole Ministery being accursed , is a fearful signe of the effectual working of their delusions : From their Ministery in this estate , no comfort is to be looked for , but assured destruction ; they being of God in his wrath sent to deceive the children of death , the Reprobates . ( H ) Barrows Discovery , p. 29. I deny their Sacraments to be the Ordinances of God , seeing to them , in this estate , belong not the Sacraments and Ministery of Christ , but the curse and judgement of God. Ibid. p. 31. Such Sacraments can no ways be called the Ordinances of Christ , but rather sure Seals of his wrath to as many as profane his holy Ordinances , and joyn together in that ungodly and accursed action , until they repent . ( I ) Vide f. also Barrows Dis . p. 43. There can be no greater allowance of joyning to them , then to make them our mouth or Ministers unto God , or together with such to joyn in any action concerning the Worship of God. ( K ) See Master Balls Confutation of the Brownists . ( L ) Barr. Dis . p. 66. This Book being a publike prescript Liturgie , were it the best that ever was devised by mortal man ; yet being brought into the Church , yea into any private house , would be an abominable sacrifice in the sight of God , even as a dead dog . Truely I am ashamed to write of so grosse and filthy abominations so generally received , even of all States of these parts of the world , who of a Popish Custom and Tradition have received it one of another , without any warrant from the Word . Ibid. p. 75. Other more smoothe hypocrites , yet as grosse idolaters , use the Lords Prayer as a close of their own . ( M ) Canns Necessity of Separation , p. 66. It is all one , whether turning on the left hand we embrace the Idolatry of Bishops , or turning on the other hand we follow the new devices of mens foolish brains ; for utter destruction certainly follows both . ( N ) Robinsons Apologie , p. 89. Quae nos ad Separationem solicitant , ipsam Ecclesiae materialem & formalem constitutionem ejusdemque politeiae administrationem essentialem spectant . ( O ) Johns . Enquiry , p. 25. Seeing by the mercy of God we have seen and forsaken the corruptions which remain in the French and Dutch Churches , we cannot partake with them in such case , without apostacie from the Truth . ( P ) Johns . Plea , p. 231. Every particular Church , with their Pastors , stand immediately under Christ the Arch-Pastor , without any other strange Ecclesiastical power intervening , whether it be of Prelates , or other unlawful usurping Synods , or of any such like , invented by man , and brought into the Church . Barrows Dis . p. 261. If we would but lightly examine these secret Classes , these ordinary set Synods which the Reformists would openly set up , they shall , no doubt , be found as new , strange , Antichristian , and prejudicial to the Rights of the Church , as contrary to the Gospel of Christ as the other , what shew soever of former antiquity or present necessity they can pretend . Idem Refut . of Giff●rd , p. 137. These are the antient Sects of the Pharisees and Sadduces , the one in precisenesse , outward shew of holinesse , hypocrisie , vain-glory , and covetousnesse , resembling , or rather exceeding the Pharisees ; the other , in their whole Religion , and dissolute conversation , like to the Sadduces , looking for no Resurrection , Judgement , or life to come ; the one removing from place to place for their advantage and best entertainment , in the errour of Ba'aam , for wages , seduce and distract the people of the Lord from their own Churches and Pastors . Sions Royal Prerogative , in the Preface . Whereas the Papists place the power of Christ given to the Church , in the Pope , the Protestants in the Bishops , the Reformed Churches , as they are called , in the Presbytery : Neither of them hath right in this thing , but contrarywise Christ hath given the said power of his to all his Saints , and placed it in the Body of every particular Congregation . ( Q 1. ) Robinsons Apol. p 83. Personas Episcoporum vel autoritatem qua potiuntur civilem in rebus vel civilibus vel etiam Ecclesiasticis non aversamur . ( Q 2. ) Vide supra F. ( R 1. ) Bar. Dis . p. 33. Such like detestable stuff hath Master Calvin in his ignorance brought to defend his own rash and disorderly proceedings at Geneva , whiles he at the first dash made no scruple to receive the whole State into the bosome of the Church : yea , that which is worse , and more to be lamented , it became a miserable precedent and pernicious example to all Europe , to fall in the like transgression , as in the confused estate of all those Regions where the Gospel is thus orderly taught , is more then plain . ( R 2. ) Robins . Apol. p. 7. Profitemur coram Deo & hominibus adeo nobis convenire cum Ecclesus reformatis Belgicis in re Religionis , ut omnibus & singulis earundem Ecclesiarum fidei Articulis prout habentur in harmonia Confessionum fidei , paratisimus subscribere . Ibid. p. 11. Ecclesias reformatas pro veris & genuinis habemus , cum iisdem in sacris Dei Communionem profitemur , & quantum in nobis est colimus ; conciones publicas ab illarum pastoribus habitas ex nostris qui norunt Linguam Belgicam frequentant ; Sacram coenam earum membris si qua forte nostris coetibus intersint nobis cognita , participamus : Malis illarum serio ingemiscimus . Apol. for the Brownists , pag. 35. We are willing and ready to subscribe those Grounds of Religion published in the Confession of Faith made by the Church of Scotland , hoping in the unity of the same Faith to be saved by Jesus Christ , being also like minded in points of greatest moment with all other Reformed Churches ; and on the contrary , for Anabaptists , Familists , and all other Heretikes , new , and old , we utterly reject them , and all their Errours and Heresies . Johns . plea. p. 245. I acknowledge the Reformed Churches to be the true Churches of Christ , with whom I agree , both in the Faith of Christ , and in many things concerning the Order and Government of the Church . ( R 3. ) Johns . Inquiry , p. 57. Having declined to divers Errors of the Dutch , the Church did excommunicate him , and so still he remains . Ibid. p. 59. Yet it is false that we have excommunicate any for the hearing onely the Word preached among the Dutch or French ; for these that yet we have cast out here , it hath been partly for revolting from the truth which they professed with us , to the corruptions of those Churches , and partly for other sins . ( S ) The Confession , p. 26. The state of the Dutch Church at Amsterdam is so confused , that the whole Church can never come together in one ; they read out of a Book certain Prayers invented and imposed by man ; the command of Christ Matth. 18. they neither observe , nor suffer to be observed rightly ; they worship God in the Idoll-Temples of Antichrist , their Ministers have their set maintenance , their Elders change yeerly , they celebrate marriage in the Church , they use a new censure of Suspension . ( T ) Robins . apol . p. 81. Ecclesiae Anglicanae constitutio materialis est ex hominum flagitiosorum colluvie , paucis si cum reliquis piis admistis conferantur . ( V ) Canns necessity , p. 167. He is to come himself into the publike Assembly , all looking on him with love and joy , as one that comes to be married , and there he is to make publike Confession of his Faith , to answer divers questions ; being found worthy by the consent of the whole , he is to be taken into the Communion . ( X ) Bar. dis . p. 34. I have shewed , that the known and suffered sin of any Member , is contagious to all that communicate with them in that estate , and maketh them which communicate in Prayers or Sacraments with such an obstinate offender , as guilty in Gods sight as he himself is . ( Y ) Bar. dis . p. 34. I have shewed that the whole Church hath no power to dispence with the breach of the least Commandment , and that such obstinate sin in the whole Church breaketh the Covenant with God , and maketh it cease to be a Church , or in Gods favour , till it repent . ( Z ) Vide supra . X , Y. ( AA ) Bar. dis . p. 157. They make this part of Gods Word substantial , that of Form ; this Fundamental , that Accidental ; this necessary to Salvation , that needlesse ; but if the whole Word of God be holy ▪ pure , and true , then is this deep learning of theirs , devillish and blasphemous . Ibid. They thus to colour their wickednesse , make some part of Gods Word Fundamental , Substantial , necessary ; other Accidental , Superficial , needlesse , which makes some sins openly and manifestly convinced , yet obstinately persisted in without any repentance in this life , not to be mortal as the Papists do . Barrows refut . p. 24. We have learned to put difference betwixt Errour and Heresie . Obstinacy joyned to Errour after it is duely convinced , maketh Heresie : And further we say , that any Errour being obstinately holden and taught , after it is duely convinced and reproved , maketh an Heretike ; and Heresie in that party , and in that Congregation that so holdeth and teacheth , doth separate from the Faith and Communion of Christ . Ibid. p. 27. It is his Scholastical , or rather Sophistical distinction of Errours Fundamental , &c. They who obstinately hold any Errour or Transgression , and will not by repentance be purged , there from lose Christ , and so hold not the Foundation . ( BB ) Bar. dis . p. 33. Such like detestable stuff hath Master Calvin in his ignorance , partly to confute that damnable sect of Anabaptists , which fantastically dream to themselves of a Church in this life without spot , and for every Transgression that ariseth , are ready to forsake the fellowship of the Church , without due and orderly reproof . ( CC ) Rob. Apol. p. 81. Formalis ecclesiae constitutio est ex fidei & resipiscentiae confessione orali per adultos facta consociatio in particulares coetus . ( DD ) Confession of faith , p. 34. Being come forth of this Antichristian estate , to the true profession of Christ , beside the instructing of their own Families , they are willingly to come together in Christian communion , and orderly to Covenant and unite themselves in visible Congregations . A light for the ignorant . p. 12. This voluntary uniting , is the form and being of the politick and visible Vnion and Communion . ( EE ) Robins . Just . p. 107. This we hold and affirm , that a company consisting , though but of two or three gathered by a covenant made to walk in all the ways of God , known unto them , is a Church , and so hath the whole power of Christ . Ibid. p. 111. Two or three thus gathered together , have the same right with two or three thousand ; neither the smallnesse of the number , nor meanesse of the persons can prejudice their rights . ( FF ) Johns . plea. p. 250. The constitution of every particular Church should be such that each of them may ordinarily come together in one place for the worship of God and all other duties belonging to them , by the Word of God. Rob. Apol. p. 12. Statu●mus non debere ecclesias particulares ambitu suo plura membra complecti quam quae in unum locum simul coire possunt . ( GG ) Vide supra . X , Y. ( HH ) Bar. dis . p. 190. They suite to bring Christ in by the Arm of Flesh , by suiting and supplicating to his vassals and servants ▪ If so be they can imagine them Christians , that will not suffer Christ to reign over them by his Laws and Ordinances . If they judge them no Christians , then they suite and stay on his enemies , till they will suffer Christ to reign and rule over his own Church . ( II ) Confession . p. 34. Beside the instruction of their Families , they are willingly to come together , and unite themselves in visible Congregations : Then such to whom God hath given gifts to interpret the Scriptures , may , and ought by the appointment of the Congregation , to prophecy , and so to teach publikely the Word of God , untill such time as God manifest men with able gifts to such Offices as Christ hath appointed for the publike Ministery of the Church , but no Sacrament to be administred untill the Pastors or Teachers be chosen , and ordained to their Office. ( KK ) Barr. dis . pag. 34. Which people thus gathered are to be esteemed an holy Church , and hath power to receive into and cast out of their fellowship , although they have attained to have yet among them neither a Ministery nor Sacraments , providing it be not by any default in them that they be wanting . Ibid. It is manifest , that all the Members of the Church have alike interest in Christ , in his Word , in the Faith ; That all the affairs of the Church belong to the Body together ; That all the actions of the Church , Prayers , Sacraments , Censures , Faith , be the action of them all joyntly , and of every one severally , although the Body to divers actions uses divers Members which it knows most fit for the same ; all the charged to watch , admonish , reprove , and hereunto have the power of the Lord , the Keyes of the Kingdom , even the Word of the most High , whereby to binde the Rulers in chains , and their Nobles in fetters , to admonish the greatest , even Archippus , to look to his Ministery , and if need be , to plead with their Mother . ( LL ) Canns Necessity of Sep p. 29. None may hear , or joyn in spiritual Communion with that Ministery which hath not a true Vocation and Calling , by Election , Approbation , and Ordination of that faithful People whereto he is a Minister . Ibid. p. 46. So necessary is a right election , and calling , to every Ecclesiastike Office ; that without the same , it cannot possibly be true or lawful . Barr. Refut . p. 30. The Minister must not onely be called to a true Office , but must have a lawful calling to that Office ; otherwise he is but an intruder , a theef , and a murderer : Every particular Congregation ought to make choice of their own Pastors . ( MM ) A Light for , p. 17. In the false Church , the particular Congregations have no Authority to produce or raise Officers out of themselves ; for the Clergy is a distinct Body , and sent by their Ecclesiastical Heads , and bring their Office and Authority with them . ( NN ) Bar. Refut . p. 19. This power of Ordination is not as the unruly Clergy of these dayes suppose , derived from the Apostles and Evangelists , under the permanent ministery of Pastors and Elders . Ibid. p. 130. Ordination is but a publishing of that former contract and agreement , betwixt the whole Church and these elected Officers , the Church giving , and the Elect receiving their Offices , as by the Commandment of God , with mutual vow to each other in all duties . Canns Necessity of Separ . p. 29. None may joyn with that Ministery which hath not a true calling , by Election and Ordination of that faithful people to whom he is to administer . ( OO ) Johns . Plea. p. 316. It is to be understood according to Ainsworth , Robinson , and Smith , of men , women , and children , in their own persons , who are bo●●d in their own persons to be present , to hear and judge controversies . ( PP ) Rob. Justifi . p. 9. also p. 111. ( QQ ) Light for the ignorant , p. 17. These Officers have not onely their Authority from particular Congregations , but do arise originally and naturally out of the same . ( RR ) Vide supra . KK . Also Bar. Dis ▪ p. 125. The least of the Church hath as much power by the Word of God , to binde the Sin of the Pastor ; and upon his Repentance , to pronounce comfort and peace to him , as he hath to binde or loose the sins of the least . ( SS ) Confess . p. 23. As every Congregation hath power to elect and ordain their own Ministery , so also have they power , when any such default in Life , Doctrine , or Administration breaks out , as by the rule of the Word deprives them of their Ministery , by due order to depose them ; yea , if the case so require , if they remain obstinate , orderly to cut them off by Excommunication . Canns Necessity , p. 155. If they shall sin scandalously , the Congregation that chose them freely , hath free power to depose them , and put another in their room . ( TT ) Johns . Inquir . p. 7. We have in our Church the use of the exercise of Prophecy spoken of , 1 Cor. 14. In which , some of the Brethren , such as for Gifts are best able , though not in Office of the Ministery , deliver from some portion of Scripture , Doctrine , Exhortation , Comfort ; sometimes two at a time , sometimes more . ( VV ) Bar. Disc . p. 26. Their is no cause to doubt but any of Gods servants may censure , judge , and avoid that Congregation which rejecteth Gods Word , breaketh Gods Law , despiseth his Reproof and Mercy , as a wicked Assembly , and an Adulterous Church . Ibid. p. 38. Who can deny but that every particular Member hath power , yea and ought to examine the manner of administrating the Sacraments ; as also , the Estate , Disorder , and Transgressions of the whole Church , and to call them all to Repentance ; and if he finde them obstinate in their Sin , rather to leave their Fellowship , then to partake with them in wickednesse ? ( XX ) Vide supra . MM. ( YY ) Vide supra . ll . ( ZZ ) Smiths Differences , p. 56. It may be a question whether the Church may not administer the Sacraments before there be any Officers among them . ( AAA ) Bar. Disc . p. 121. I have alwayes found it the Parents office to provide marriage for their children ; and that the parties themselves should affiance and betroath one another in the fear of God , and in the presence of such witnesses as are present ; and that in their Parents or other private houses , without turning to the Church or to the Priest . Confess . pag. 45. The Dutch Church at Amsterdam celebrates marriage in the Church , as if it were a part of the Ecclesiastick Administration , while as it is in the nature of it meerly Civil . ( BBB ) Vide supra AAA . ( CCC ) Vide supra AAA . ( DDD ) Johns . Inqui. p. 33. These of our Members that you censure , they avow that they accused themselves of adultery , not for that end to be quit of their wives , but being perswaded in their minde that they ought not to continue with their wives , having by their adultery broken the bond of marriage . Ibid. This indeed we held the most of us heretofore , and some of us are so perswaded still ; and while we were generally so minded , we thought it our duty to walk accordingly ( he means to excommunicate even the innocent party who was pleased to dwel with her Husband after he had sinned ) taking the innocent party that retained such offenders , though upon repentance , yet to be defiled and live in sin . ( EEE ) Johns . Plea , p. 231. Every particular Church with the Pastor , doth stand immediately under Jesus Christ the Arch-Pastor , without any other strange Ecclesiastical power intervening , &c. Vide supra P. Also Robinsons Apol. p. 17. Non magis erat Petrus & Paulus homo integer & perfectus ex partibus suis essentialibus & integralibus constans , sine relatione ad alios homines , quàm est ●oetus particularis recte institutus & ordinatus tota integra & perfecta ecclesia , ex suis partibus constans immediate & independenter quòad alias ecclesias sub solo Christo ; non itaque movendi sub humanae prudentiae , antiquitatis , unitatis , aut alio ullo colore ecclesiae visibilis seu Ministerialis termini antiqui quos posuerunt Apostoli . ( FFF ) Canns guide to Sion , about the midst . It is sure that Christ hath not subjected any Congregation of his to any superiour Ecclesiastical Jurisdiction then to that which is within it self ; So that if the whole Church shall erre in a matter of Faith or Religion , no other Church or Church-Officer hath any warrant from the Word of God , or power to censure , punish , or controle the same , but are onely to advise them , and so to leave their souls to the immediate judgement of Christ . Robins . Apol. p. 18. Licet imò incumbit Pastori unjus ecclesiae ut & reliquis membris quod donum accepit sive spirituale sive temporale prout datur occasio , id aliis ecclesiis & earum membris impertiri , ex charitatis vinculo quo illis adunatur , non autem exequi in iis munus publicum ex authoritatis prerogativa quam in suos solos habet . ( GGG ) Johns . Plea , pag. 251. To this end , and in this manner may be had a profitable use of Synods , Classes , and Assemblies for mutual help and advice in cases of question , controversie , and difficulty about Religion , so that they do not challenge or usurpe any unlawful jurisdiction or power over the particular Churches , and their Governours . ( HHH ) Bar. Disc . p. 261. These secret Classes , these ordinary set Synods which the Reformists would set up . ( III ) Bar. Refut . p. 81. In a Christian Synod no Christian ought to be shut out , but all have equal power to speak , assent or dissent , without disturbing the Order of the Holy Church , by presuming to speak before the Ancients , or against any thing said by them without just cause ; who so doth , is reproved of all , judged of all as a disturber . ( KKK ) Vide supra . III. ( LLL ) Bar. Disc . p. 261. In their Synods the matters being debated , the greatest part prevaileth , and carrieth the judgement . Ibid. p. 78. This balloting by suffrage or pluralty of voices , might well be a custom among the Heathen in their popular Government , but it is unheard of , and unsufferable in the Church of Christ . ( MMM ) Ibid. p. 261. The order and manner of these Counsel● ▪ is , first to chuse a Prolocutor , Moderator , or Judge to govern , and order the action , who , and when they shall speak , and when cease . Ibid. p. 191. Not here to speak of their solemn Order observed in these Counsels and Synods , as their choice by suffrages among themselves of their Archisynagogos or Rectorchori , their President as they call him . ( NNN ) Vide supra . FFF . ( OOO ) Bar. Disc . p. 38. Every Member of his Church is to pronounce upon them the judgements that are written , and to throw upon them the Stone of his judgement and consent : Therefore hath the Lord raised up the Thrones of David in his Church , and set his Saints in seats round about his Throne . A Light for the Ignorant , pag. 10. The true power which Christ our King hath received of the Father , and communicated to his Saints ; and these onely is that dominion which the Ancient of days hath given to his Saints , Dan. 7.19 . ( PPP ) Johns . Plea. p. 321. The Lord hath promised to raise up his Church again to the former integrity , and to set up the new and heavenly Jerusalem in the Ancient beauty thereof . ( QQQ ) Bar. Disc . p. 139. Their Churches stand in their old Idolatrous shapes , and can never be purged till they be laid on heaps as their youngest Sisters , the Abbacies were . Confess . p. 39. It is the Office of the Magistrate to destroy all Idol-Temples : The Dutch Church of Amsterdam worships God in the Idol-Temples of Antichrist . ( RRR ) Bar. Dis . p. 133. Some of their old Relicts are yet in use , as their Bells , Surplices , &c. We may resolutely detest all such as abominable Idols , such as by the Law of God are devoted to utter destruction ; the very Gold of them , Deut. 7. is to be destroyed ; in such detestation ought Idolatry to be . God hath such Idol places , and all their furniture in detestation , so that he hath commanded the Magistrate to raze and deface them ; so that , neither they can be used to the worship of God , nor we have any civil use of them , seeing they are execrable and devoted to destruction ; if the most precious matters be forbidden , how much more the baser Iron , Brasse , &c. Canns Necessity , p. 122. He that ordained first Bells , was Sabinian the Pope , in the yeer 603. Whatsoever cometh from Antichrist , cometh from the devil and out of the bottomlesse Pit. ( SSS ) Bar. Refut . p. 38. Where learned you to buried in hallowed Churches and Church-yards , as though ye had no Fields to bury in . Idem . Disc . p. 126. Me thinks the Church-yards of all other places should be not the convenientest for burial ; it was a thing never used till Popery began : It is neither comely , convenient , nor wholesom● . ( TTT ) Confess . p. 39. It is the Office of the Magistrate to destroy all Idol-Temples , and to convert to their civil Vses not onely the benefit of all such Idolatrous buildings and monuments , but also all the Revenues , Possessions , Glebes and Maintenance of any false Ministry within their own Dominions . ( VVV ) Vide supra , TTT , also Bar. Disc . p. 61. Being given to the maintenance of a Popish Ministry , they ought to be put to civil Vses , and not to the maintenance of Christs Ministry . ( XXX ) Confess . p. 19. Christ having instituted and ratified to continue to the worlds end , the Ministery of Pastors , Teachers , Elders , Deacons , Helpers for Instruction and Government of his Church . YYY . Johns . Plea , 316. Whether it be not the duty of all Churches , and of the members thereof , every one according to their ability , to give maintenance unto their Ministers , and as there is occasion , to the Elders also that rule the Church , and to the Deacons and Deaconesses that serve and minister therein . ZZZ . Bar. Disc . p. 5. Parsonages and Vicarages , in Name and Office , are Popish and Antichristian . Ibid. p. 61. Here also by the way , the unlawfulnesse of their Glebes is well noted . AAAA . Those men , whether Priest or People , which either pay or receive the Tythes , still keep the Levitical Laws for the maintenance of the Ministery , and thereby abolish the Gospel , and are abolished from Christ , whom we deny to be dead , risen , or ascended , while we maintain the shadow or any part of the Ceremonial Law to be revived . Ibid. p. 91. The Prince demandeth my goods ; I am ready and willing to depart with all to him , without all enquiry : But if he command me to give my goods to such an Idol , or after such a wicked manner as by way of Tythes to a Minister , or by way of Pension to an Antichristian Minister ; I may not obey , but rather suffer his indignation , yea death . BBBB . Bar. Disc . p. 53. This Shepherd is not limited , nor the sheep constrained to a tent or any stinted portion , but according to the present want of the one , and the state of the other , they together relieving him , and he together bearing the burden of their common poverty ; every one that is taught , freely imparting of all his goods to the competent maintenance of such as instruct them , not unto excesse , but sufficiency : Which contribution , as it is the duty of the Saints , so the manner of it , it is a free offering of their benevolence , an holy Alms unto the Lord ; by contribution and alms , our Saviour Christ , and his Apostles , and all the Officers of the Church , were and are to be maintained . Ibid. p. 61. They are not by rated proportions , as Tenths or Third , but in love to make him partaker of that little or much the Lord sendeth , according to his present wants and necessary uses ; who , if he have but food and raiment , ought to be therewith content . Confess . p. 45. At Amsterdam their Ministers have their set-maintenance in another manner then Christ hath ordained . BBBB 2. Rob. Ap. p. 36. Omnia etiam bona corporalia suo modo communia habenda , prout cuíque opus aequissimum videtur . ( CCCC ) Bar. Disc . p. 132. The dayes of their week still are devoted to the gods of the Heathen , having utterly lost the name and order of their Creator : As the first , second , third day of such a week ; the first , second , third moneth of such a yeer . Idem . Refut . p. 34. If Luke should call it Mars-street , speaking in his own name , and for himself , he should commit idolatry by naming the creature of God after an Idol . David said he would not take the names of their Idols in his lips , but Luke recordeth onely the story , and the vulgar name of the place . ( DDDD ) See the Preface of the Confession . ( EEEE ) Bar. Disc . p. 180. They have a prescript place like a Tub , called the Pulpit . Ibid. p. 138. In that his priviledged Tub be may Preach what he list . ( FFFF ) Ibid. p. 180. They are prescribed the time when they begin , they dispute to the Hour-Glasse . Ibid. p. 54. He must Preach a Sermon an hour long . ( GGGG ) Bar. Disc . p. 232. He may peradventure do his pennance before all the Sodomites of the Parish in white sheets . ( HHHH ) Johns . Plea , p. 245. Book-Prayer being mens invention , in the worship of God , is a breach of the second command . These Books and stinted Prayers , become indeed to be Idols , supplying the place of the Word and Spirit of God ; in which respect such manner of worship becometh Idolatrous and Superstitious , and not to be communicate with ; for what agreement hath the Temple of God with Idols ? Vide supra . D. L. ( IIII ) Rob. Apol. p. 20. Non dubito quin rite & pie usurpari possit haec ipsa forma in precando Deum , modo absit opinio necessitatis & perfectionis . ( KKKK ) Bar. Disc . p. 180. Here would not be forgotten the sweet Psalmodical harmony of the Vulturs , Cranes , &c. All these t●gether with one accord sing some pleasant Ballad , or else to Davids melodious Harp some Psalm in rythme , well concinnate to the ear , though never a whit to the sense , purpose , or true use of the Psalm . Idem . Refut . p. 254. I have not spoken against that most comfortable and heavenly harmony of singing Psalms , but against rhyming and paraphrasing the Psalms as in your Church , and against Apocrypha and Erroneous Ballads in rythme , sung commonly in your Church instead of the Psalms , and other Songs of holy Scripture . ( LLLL ) Rob. Apo● . p. 20. Nego eandem esse rationem precationis & cantionis ; ipsi Psalmi quorum materia precatione aut gratulatione constat , in hunc finem proprie & primo formantur a prophetis in cantiones & Psalmos spirituales , ut nos edoceant , & quae vota illi in angustiis constituti ad Deum fuderint , quasque liberati eidem Deo gratias retulerint , ut nos eosdem Psalmos sive psallentes sive legentes , institueremus nos ipsos sive publice sive privatim sive docendo sive commone faciendo sive consolando ad Dei gloriam in cordibus nostris promovendam . ( MMMM ) Smiths Diff. p. 4. That the reading out of a Book is no part of spiritual worship , but the invention of the man of sin ; that Books and writings are in the nature of Pictures and Images ; that it is unlawful to have the Book before the eyes in singing of a Psalm . ( NNNN ) Smiths differences . Vide supra , cap. 1. E. ( OOOO ) Confess . p. 34. Such to whom God hath given gifts to interpret the Scriptures , ought by the appointment of the Congregation to prophecy , and so to teach publikely the Word of God , until such time as God manifests men with able gifts to such Offices as Christ hath appointed to the publike Ministry . ( PPPP ) Bar. Disc . p. 116. Shall I speak according to the times and say , Be no true Sacrament ? or rather leave that traditional word which ingendreth strife rather then godly edifying , and say , Be no true Seal of the Covenant ? ( QQQQ ) Vide supra . F. ( RRRR ) Johns . Plea , p. 291. Whether it be not best to celebrate the Lords Supper where it can be every Lords day ; this the Apostles used to do ; by so doing we shall return to the intire practise of the Churches in former ages . ( SSSS ) How corrupt is the signe of the Crosse , kneeling and uncovering of the head at the Lords Supper , and such things which Scripture prescribes not , but men have taken upon themselves , thus breaking the second command , and joyning their Posts and Thresholds with the Lords . Men are thus drawn away from the simplicity of the practise used by Christ and his Apostles , who sat when they ate and drank and did no more discover then before . ( TTTT ) Johns . Plea , p. 294. To have love feasts on the dayes of the Lords Supper , it is a thing indifferent to keep or leave them , as they shall be used or abused , or as every Church shall finde them to be most expedient for their estate . ( VVVV ) Bar. Refut . p. 43. Not here to mention the binding of the Faith of the Church to an Apocrypha Catechism . Idem . Disc . p. 142. They are not ashamed to Preach and publikely Expound in their Church , their fond Apocrypha Catechisms . XXXX . Bar. Disc . p. 76. Their forged patchery , commonly called The Apostles Creed . YYYY . His Refut . p. 48. What Scripture can you bring for the blasphemous Article of Christs descent into hell ? ZZZZ . Cans Necessity , p. 44. Bare reading of the Word , and single Service-saying , is an English Popery ; and far be it from the Lords people to hear it ; for if they would do so , they would offer to the Lord a corrupt thing , and so incur that curse of Malachi . AAAAA . Johns . Enquiry , p. 7. We have in our Church the use of the exercise of Prophecie , spoken of , 1 Cor. 14. in which some of the Brethren which are for gifts best able , though not in Office of the Ministery , deliver from some portion of Scripture , Doctrine , Exhortation , Comfort ; sometimes Two at a time , sometimes more . BBBBB . Johns . Enquiry , p. 7. Then , if there be occasion , upon the Scriptures treated , or questions propounded and answers made . Bar. Disc . p. 139. In that his priviledged Tub , he may speak of what be list ; none of his auditory have power to call in question , correct , or refuse the same presently or publikely . CCCCC . Rob. Apol. p. 38. Prorsus inauditum ante haec nostra saecula sive inter gentes , sive inter Judaeos , sive inter Christianos ut Judicia publica aliive actus naturae publicae privatim aut seclusa plebe exercerentur . Ibid. p. 51. Per plebem cujus Libertatem & Jus suffragandi in negotiis vere publicis asserimus , non intelligimus pueros & mulieres , sed solos viros eosque adultos . DDDDD . Browns Life and manners of all true Christians , in the Preface , or Treatise of Reformation without tarrying for any ; and of the wickednesse of those Preachers which will not reform till the Magistrate command or compel them , p. 8. Know ye not that they which have their full and sufficient authority and calling , are not to care for a further authority ? And hath not every lawful Pastor his full authority ? Ibid. p. 8. The Lord did not onely shew them the Tabernacle , but bade them make it : But these men will not make it at all , because they will tarry for the Magistrate . Ibid. p. 10. They could not force Religion , as you would have the Magistrate to do : And it was forbidden to the Apostles to preach to the unworthy , or to force a planting or government in the Church . The Lords Kingdom is not by force , neither durst Moses nor any of the Kings of Judah force the people , by Law or by power , to receive the Church-Government : But after they received it , if then they fell away , and sought not the Lord , they might put them to death . They do cry Discipline , Discipline , that is , for a civil forcing to imprison the people , or otherwise , by violence to handle and beat them , if they would not obey them . Ibid. p. 11. The Lords people is of the willing sort , they shall come unto Sion , and inquire the way unto Jerusalem , not by force nor compulsion , but with their faces thitherward : And p. 12. Because the Church is in a Common-wealth , it is of the Magistrates charge , that is , concerning the outward Provision and outward Justice they are to look ; but to compel Religion , to plant Churches by power , and to force a submission to Ecclesiastical Government , by Laws and Penalties , belongeth not to them , neither yet to the Church . EEEEE . Confess . p. 32. Leaving the suppression of this Antichristian estate to the Magistrate , to whom it belongeth . FFFFF . Bar. Refut . In the Preface . We acknowledge the Prince ought to compel all his Subjects to the hearing of Gods Word , in the publike exercises of the Church ; yet cannot the Prince command any to be a member of the Church , or the Church to receive any without assurance by their publike Profession of their own Faith , or to retain any longer then they continue to walk orderly in the Faith. GGGGG . Bar. Disc . p. 245. When Princes depart from the Faith , and will not be reduced by admonition or reproof , they are no longer to be held in the Faith of the Church , but are to receive the censure of Christ , as any other , and to be cut off as withred branches : The Church cannot , neither hath in her power to defer the sentence of Excommunication any longer , on hope of further tryal , because they have had already that tryal which God alloweth ; it is a Leaden rule to proceed to the sentence of Excommunication with a Leaden-heel , when the sin is ripe . Ibid. p. 15. Which censures , if the Prince contemn , he contemneth them against his own soul ; and is thereupon , by the power of the Church disfranchised out of the Church , and to be delivered over to Satan , as well as any other offender . HHHHH . Johns . Inqui. p. 70. We hold it Antichristian to entertain or admit any appeal from one Church to another ; the highest ordained by the Lord for all sinners , is that Church whereof the sinner is a member . And therefore , in urging our Church to submit to another Church , they sought to draw it to Antichristian bondage . IIIII . Bar. Dis . p. 84. I am perswaded , that the Magistrate ought not to make permanent Laws of that the Lord hath left in our Liberty . Ibid. p. 255. We approve all the Laws of God , to be most holy and inviolable , and all-sufficient both for Church and Common-wealth , and the perfit instruction of every Member and Officer of the same , in their several duties , so that nothing is now left to any mortal man of what high dignitie and calling so ever , but to execute the Will of God according to his Word . KKKKK . Bar. Disc . p. 108. God will have his Laws and Statutes kept , and not altered according to the State and Policy of times ; for these Laws were made , not for the Jews estate , as Master Calvin teaches ; but for all mankinde , especially for all the Israel of God , from which Laws it is not lawful in judgement to decline to the right hand , or to the left . By the neglect of these Laws , the whole world overflows with sin . Ibid. p. 212. In the Common-wealth they have abrogated all Gods Judicial Laws , and cut them off at one blow , as made for the Common-wealth of the Jews onely , as if God had no regard of the conversation of other Christians , or had left the Gentiles in greater liberty to make Laws and Customes to themselves . LLLLL. Ibid. Hereby it cometh to passe that so many ungodly Laws are decreed , and the whole course of Justice perverted , that so many capital mischiefs as God punisheth by death , such as blaspheme the Name of the Lord , open Idolatry , Disobedience to Parents , are not by Law punished at all : Incest and Adultery , are either past over , or punished by some light or triffling punishment . Ibid. p. 155. The High-Commission punishes the most execrable Idolatries but with prisons or forfeitures , making it a pecuniary matter , contrary to Gods Word . MMMMM . 1. Vide HHHH . MMMMM . 2. Bar. Dis . p. 211. Theft , if above thirteen pence , is punished by death . NNNNN . Bar. Dis . p. 55. The Vniversity of Oxford and Cambridge have the same Popish and Idolatrous beginning with the Colledges of Monks , Fryers and Nuns ; and these Vermin had , and still do retain the same insufferable and incurable abuses ; therefore Queen Elizabeth ought by good right to abolish them as her Progenitors did the Abbeys . OOOOO . Ibid. p. 177. They repair to the Vniversities to be instructed in Heathen and vain Arts : The Churches of Christ have not such Heathenish and Idolatrous customes ; they have no such prophane Arts , vain Education and Literature . Ibid. p. 56. We finde them all generally the Seed of Vnbeleevers , nourished in all manner of Prophanenesse , Heathenism , vain and ungodly Sciences ; their Education from their cradle is ungodly in the common Schools , where they must learn their Greek and Latin from lascivious Poets or Heathenish Philosophers : With this Liquor are their Pitchers at first seasoned ; there are they trained up in Logick , Rhetorick and Philosophy ; which Learning they draw from Aristotle , Cicero , and such like ; there they learn to speak by Art Syllogisms and Tropes . Idem . Refut . p. 89. This I dare affirm , that from the Book of God , they never derived these their Colledges , Schools , Halls , Orders , and Degrees ; that I may not say Arts , Authors , Exercise , use of Learning , Disputations , Commencements . They fight with their School-Learning , vain Arts , Philosophy , Rhetorick , Logick , against the Truth and Servants of God. PPPPP . Vide supra . N , O. QQQQQ . Vide RRRRR 2. RRRRR 1. Bar. Dis . p. 179. In the Church of Christ , the name and offices of Chancelor , Vice-Chancelor , Dean of Faculty , Masters of Colledges , Fellows , Beadels , Bursours , and all their several Statutes and Customes are strange ; as also , their manner of Degrees , Disputing for their Degrees , and Order of Teaching : Neither have any such Vniversities , Colledges , Society of Schollers , any ground of the Word of God. I see not why they should have any more toleration then their elder Brethren , the Monks , who every way had as great colour of Holinesse , and shew of Vtility to the Church , as they : They have all one and the same Hellish Original they had ; and these still retain the same blasphemous incurable abuses , which can no ways be reformed but by their utter dissolution . RRRRR 2. Bar. Dis . p. 177. The English of Christian Religion , and Profession of the Gospel , I can well away with ; but this English Romish abstract of Divinity , I am assured , came forth of this same Forge that the Title of the supreme Head of the Church ; and cannot by all the glosses they can devise , be made other then most high blasphemy against the person of Christ , who is the onely Vniversal Doctor of all his Disciples . Ibid. p. 56. If they continue still , and give their minde to the study of Divinity as they call it , which is as much as to say , The reading of mens writings ; with these Feathers they flee , with these eyes they see ; which Books being taken from them , they are as mute as fish , as blinde as moles . Ibid. Their Divinity is traditional , wholly derived from other mens Books and Writings , both for the understanding , dividing , and interpretation of all Scripture ; as also for all Questions , Doctrines , and Doubts that arise ; and not springing from the Fountain of Gods Spirit in themselves , according to the measure of Knowledge , Faith and Grace given unto them . SSSSS . Bar. Disc . p. 146. It were much better for the whole Church , that for Prophecy and Doctrine , Preachers would lay aside all Authors , and be take themselves wholly to the Book of God : So should that Book be more soundly understood , so should they see with their own eyes , and not other mens . TTTTT . Bar. Disc . p. 56. These Questions , as also the whole Scripture , must in these their Schools and Disputations , be insufferably corrupted , wrested , blasphemed , according to the lusts of these Philosophical and Heathen Disputers , which here must handle , divide , discusse according to their vain affected Arts of Logick and Rhetorick : All these prizes must be played in Latin , that the Learning may the more , and the Folly the lesse be perceived , least even the common people should hisse them off the Stage if they spoke in English . Ibid. p. 52. They give liberty to their wits in their learning to deface , strive , and dispute against the holy known Truth of God , tossing it as a Tenice Ball amongst them , both publikely in their Schools , and privately in their Colledges amongst them . VVVVV . Bar. Refut . p. 124. I would not here that any should think we condemn any lawful Art , or any necessary Science , or any Holy Exercise , or Schools of Institution . Let their Arts and Sciences be necessary and Godly , not vain , curious , unlawful : Let them be taught , not in a vain-glorious or superstitious manner , but in all sobriety , and the fear of God ; If their Vniversities were framed to these Rules , it were good . CHAP. III. The Original and Progresse of the Independents , and of their Carriage in New-England . THe Sect ( if so without offence it may be called ) which this day is the subject of the most discourse , and the object of the greatest passions ; some pouring out upon it more of their love and hope , others of their anger and fear , then were convenient , is that of Independency . Of all the by-paths wherein the wanderers of our time are pleased to walk , this is the most considerable ; not for the number , but for the quality of the erring persons therein . There be few of the noted Sects which are not a great deal more numerous ; but this Way , what it wants in number , supplies by the weight of its followers . After five yeers endeavours and great industry within the Lines of the Cities Communication , they are said as yet to consist much within One thousand persons ; men , women , and all who to this day have put themselves in any known Congregation of that way , being reckoned . But setting aside number , for other respects they are of so eminent a condition , that not any nor all the rest of the Sects are comparable to them ; for they have been so wise as to engage to their party some of chief note , in both Houses of Parliament , in the Assembly of Divines , in the Army , in the City and Countrey-Committees ; all whom they daily manage with such dexterity and diligence , for the benefit of their Cause , that the eyes of the world begin to fall upon them more then upon all their fellows : It will be requisite therefore that with the greater care we give an account of them . Of this our Account there shall be three parts . The first , An History of their Original and Progresse ▪ to that height wherein now they stand . The second , A Narrative of their Tenents . The third , A Con●tion of some of their prime Principles . Concerning , ●eir Original ; the Separatists were their Fathers . This is demonstrable , not onely by the Consanguinity of their Tenents , the one having borrowed all their chief Doctrines and Practices from the other , but also by deduction of their Pedigree in this clear line . Master Robinson did derive his way to his separate Congregation at Leyden ; a part of them did carry it over to Plymouth in New-England ; here Master Cotton did take it up , and transmit it from thence to Master Goodwin , who did help to propagate it to sundry others in Old-England first , and after , to more in Holland , till now by many hands it is sown thick in divers parts of this Kingdom . But the manner how this seed did grow , is not unworthy consideration . When the Separatists for whole Fifty yeers had over-toil'd themselves for little purpose , their horrible Divisions , wheresoever they set up , marring their encrease ; behold ▪ at the very point of time when their Spunk was dying , and their little smoke , both at Amsterdam and Leyden , was well-neer vanished , God in his secret providence permitted the tyranny of Bishops , which first had begotten them , to put new life in their ashes , and bring them back from their grave , to that vigour wherein now they appear . After the death of Ainsworth , the Brownists at Amsterdam came to a small unconsiderable handful , and so yet they remain . No other at that time in the whole world were known of that Religion , but a small company at Leyden , under Master Robinsons Ministery ; which , partly by Divisions among themselves , and partly by their Pastors deserting many of their Principles , was well-neer brought to nought : Onely about the Twenty eighth , as I take it , or the Thirtieth yeer of this Age , some of them going over , for a more commodious habitation , to New-England , did perswade their neighbours who sate down with them there at New-Plymouth , to erect with them a Congregation after their separate way ( A ) . This Congregation did incontinent leaven all the vicinity . The Planters in New-England , so far as their own informations give notice , not minding Religion for many yeers after their first enterprise ( B ) , were ready to receive , without great question , any pious form which might be presented by their neighbours , whose minde served them to be active in such ●ers . Also that way of new Plymouth , beside the more then ordinary shew of devotion , did hold out so much liberty and honour to the people , that made it very suitable and lovely to a multitude who had lately stepped out of the Episcopal thraldom in England , to the free air of a new world . However it was , without any noise in a few yeers , the most who settled their habitations in that Land , did agree to model themselves in Churches after Robinsons patern . This for a time , was either not known , or not regarded in England . The first who appeared in any displeasure at it , was Mr. Cotton ; for this reverend man , howsoever he had faln off from the practise of som , & but of som of the Ceremonies , & was distasted with Episcopal Government , yet so long as he abode in England , minded no more then the old non-conformity : In all his opposition to the Episcopal corruptions , he went not beyond Cartwright , and the Presbyterians . With the way of the Separatists he was then well acquainted , but declared himself against it in print , as in his Preface to Master Hildershams Sermons upon John , may be seen to this day ( C ) . Neither thus alone , but a very little before his voyage to New-England , so soon as he understood of the prevailing of Robinsons way there , such was his zeal against it , he wrote over to the Ministers who had been the chief instruments of bringing these Churches under that yoke , admonishing them freely of their falling from their former judgement , and that their new Reformation was no other but the old way wherein the Separatists had walked , to the grief and offence of the Anti-Episcopal party in England , and of the whole Protestant Churches ( D ) . Notwithstanding this admonition , the Brethren there went on in their way , yet without any hazard to others , till the 1634. as I take it , or 1635. yeer of our Lord God , when the yoke of Episcopal persecution in England became so heavy on the necks of the most of the godly , that many thousands of them did flee away , and Master Cotton among the rest , to joyn themselves to these American Churches . Here it was when that new way began first to be dangerous to the rest of the world . For Master Cotton , a man of very excellent parts , contrary much to his former judgement , having faln into a liking of it , and by his great with and learning , having refined it , without the impediment of any opposition , became the great instrument of drawing to it , not onely the thousands of those who left England , but also by his Letters to his friends who abode in their Countrey , made it become lovely to many who never before had appeared in the least degree of affection toward it . Before his departure from England , by conferences in London , he had brought off Master Davenport and Master Goodwin , from some of the English Ceremonies ( E ) ; but neither of these two , nor himself at that time , did minde the least degree of Separation ( F ) ; yet so soon as he did taste of the New-English air , he fell into so passionate an affection with the Religion he found there , that incontinent he began to perswade it , with a great deal more zeal and successe then before he had opposed it ( G ) : His convert Master Goodwin , a most fine and dainty Spirit , with very little ado , was brought by his Letters from New-England , to follow him unto this step also of his progresse , and that with so high an estimation of his new Light , that he was bold to boast of it in termes a little beyond the lines of moderation ( H ) . It had been happy for England , that Master Cotton had taken longer time for deliberation , before that change of his minde : He might have remembred his too precipitant rashnesse in former times , both to receive , and to send abroad to the world such Tenents whereof after he had cause to repent . God in wisedom permits his dearest children to set black marks on their own faces , not onely to keep themselves in humility and suspition of their own hearts , but to divert others from idolizing their gifts , and setting up their persons as a patern for their too sudden imitation . I would not willingly detract from any mans reputation ; I am oft ready enough , both to hear with contentment , and liberally to speak to the praises of men much inferiour in my thoughts to Master Cotton : Yet when his gifts are turned into snares , when they become occasions of stumbling , and , contrary to the minde of the giver , are made inducements to follow him in his wanderings ; I am of opinion , that neither Piety nor Charity will hinder to remark his evident and known failings : That as his eminent endowments are strong invitations to run after him ; so the mixture of cleer weaknesse may be a retractive to every prudent man , and a caveat from God , to beware of his wayes , as well as of any other mans . I take it for a great mercy of God to simple ones , that the most , if not all , who have offred themselves to be Ringleaders in any Heresie or Schism , or other by-way , have ever bin permitted to fall into some evident folly ; to the end , that they whose simplicity made them too prone to be misled by the strength of pregnant wits , and the luster of excellent gifts , which in the most of Sectaries to this day , have ever been apparent , might be held in the love of the truth , and made cautious of being led aside by them in whose footsteps a very blunt eye might perceive the print of an evil spirit . Not to speak of Master Cottons long continuance in the Errours of his education , sundry whereof stuck to him as he confesseth all the time of his abode in England ( I ) : Nor of his more dangerous fall into the gulf of Pelagianism , some of the Arminian Errours , from which the writings of Dr. Twisse are said to have reclaimed him ( K ) ; However , the Doctor doth say , that he hath no assurance of his recantation to this day , and therefore was willing that his Treatise against Master Cottons erroneous writings should be published to the world . To passe by also that which I have heard of some gracious Ministers of his old Montanism , wherein some think he remaineth to this day . That which I point at , is , another more dangerous fall , which as already it hath much humbled his spirit , and opened his ear to instruction , and I trust it will not leave working till it have brought him yet neerer to his Brethren : So to the worlds end , it cannot but be a matter of fear and trembling , to all who shall know it , and of aboundant caution to be very wary of receiving any singularity from his hand without due tryal . That which I speak of , is , his wandring into the horrible Errours of the Antinomians and Familists , with his dear friend Mistresse Hutchinson ; so far , that he came to a resolution to side with her , and separate from all the Churches in New-England , as legal Synagogues . The truth of this horrible fall , if ye will not take it from the parties themselves , the followers of Mistresse Hutchinson , who ofttimes were wont to brag of Master Cotton for their Master and Patron ( L ) ; nor from the Testimony of Master Williams ( M ) , who had as much occasion to know it , as any man else ; and if I mistake not the humor of the man , is very unwilling to report a lie of his greatest enemy . Yet we may not reject the witnesse of Master Winthrop , the wisest of all the New-English Governours hitherto , and of Master Wells , a gracious Minister of that Land , in their Printed Relations of the Schisms there , both those , albeit , with all care and study they endeavour to save Master Cottons credit , yet let the truth of Master Cottons seduction fall from their Pens in so clear termes as cannot be avoided ; for however , what they speak of the erring of the most eminent in place , might be applyed to the Governour for the time ( N 1. ) : Yet when they tell us , that the most of the Seducers lived in the Church of Boston , and that the whole Church of Boston , except a few , were infected with that Leprosie , and that none of them were ever-called to an account by the Presbytery of that Church till after the Assembly , though the Pastor of that Church , Master Wilson , was alwayes exceedingly zealous against them ; also that in face of the General Court , Mistresse Hutchinson did avow Master Cotton alone , and Master Wheelwright , to Preach the truth according to her minde ; and that Master Cotton himself , before that same Court , did openly dissent , even after the Assembly , from all his Brethren about Wheelwrights Doctrine . These , and other the like informations , are so clear , that no art will get Master Cotton freed ( N 2. ) I have been also informed by a gracious Preacher , who was present at the Synod of New-England ; that all the Brethren there , being exceedingly scandalized with Master Cottons carriage , in Mistresse Hutchinsons processe , did so far discountenance , and so severely admonish him , that he was thereby brought to the greatest shame , confusion , and grief of minde that ever in all his life he had indured . But leaving the person of Master Cotton , if not the Author , yet the greatest promoter and patron of Independency , we will go on with the way it self . What Master Cotton , and the Apologists , his followers , have testified of Gods displeasure and judgements upon the way of the Brownists ( O ) , is as evidently true of the way of the Independents ; not onely because , as it will appear hereafter , both wayes really are one and the same : But also , because in the comparison of the events which have befaln to both wayes , it will be seen that the miscarriages and ( because of them ) the marks of Gods anger have been more manifest upon this latter way then upon the former . Independency brought to the utmost pitch of perfection which the wit and industry of its best patrons were able to attain , having the advantage of the Brownists fatal miscarriages , to be exemplary documents of wisedom , being also assisted and fenced with all the security that Civil Laws of its friends own framing , and gracious Magistrates at their absolute devotion , could afford ; notwithstanding in a very few , lesse then one week of yeers , hath flown out in more shameful absurdities then the Brownists to this day , in all the fifty yeers of their trial , have stumbled upon . The verity of this broad assertion shall be palpable to any who will be at the pains a little to consider their proceedings in any of the places wherever yet they had any setled abode : for however much of their way be yet in the dark , and in this also their advantage above the Brownists is great ; that in their Discords none of themselves have proclaimed their own shame ; none that have fallen from them , have of purpose put pen to paper , to inform the world of their ways ; neither have any of them been willing to reply to any of the Books written against them , that did put a necessity upon them to speak out the truth of many heavie imputations which with a loud voice by many a tongue are laid on them ; chusing rather to lie under the hazard of all the reproach which their unfriendly reports could bring upon them , then to make an Apologie , wherein their denial might bring upon them the infamy of lying , or their grant the fastening , by their own testimony , upon the back of their party the Crimes alleadged against them : Notwithstanding so much is broken out from under all their coverings , as will make good what hath been said . Hitherto they have had but three places of abode , New-England , Holland , London . That any where else they have erected Congregations , I do not know . Of their adventures in these three places , we will speak a little . In New-England , when Master Cotton had gotten the assistance of Master Hooker , Master Davenport , and sundry other very worthy Ministers , beside many thousands of people whom God in his mercy did send over to that new world , to be freed from suffering and danger , in the day of their Countreys most grievous calamities ; being there alone , without the disturbance of any enemy either within or without , What were the fruits of their Church-way ? First , it forced them to hold out of all Churches and Christian Congregations , many thousands of people who in former times had been reputed in Old-England very good Christians . I have heard sundry esteem the number of the English in that Plantation to exceed Fourty thousand men and women : when Master Cotton is put to it , he dares hardly avow the one half of these to be members of any Church ( P ) : But if we do beleeve others who were eye-witnesses also , they do avow , That of all who are there , Three parts of Four will not be in any Church ( Q 1. ) . To us it seemeth a grievous absurdity , a great dishonour to God , and cruelty against men , to spoil so many thousand Christians , whom they dare not deny to be truely religious , of all the priviledges of the Church , of all the benefits of Discipline , of all the comfort of any Sacrament , either to themselves , or to their children ; to put them in the condition of Pagans , such as some of them professe all Protestants to be who are not of their way ( Q 2. ) . A second evil of their Way , is , That it hath exceedingly hindred the conversion of the poor Pagans ; God in great mercy having opened a door in these last times to a new world of reasonable creatures for that end , above all , that the Gospel might be preached to them , for the enlargement of the Kingdom of Christ . The principles and practice of Independents , doth crosse this blessed hope . What have they to do with those that are without ? Their Pastors preach not for conversion , their relation is to their Flock , who are Church-members , converted already to their hand by the labours of other men , before they can be admitted into their Church . Of all that ever crossed the American Seas , they are noted as most neglectful of the work of Conversion . I have read of none of them that seem to have minded this matter ( Q 3. ) : onely Master Williams in the time of his banishment from among them , did assay what could be done with those desolate souls , and by a little experience quickly did finde a wonderful great facility to gain thousands of them to so much and more Christianity , both in profession and practice , then in the most of our people doth appear ( R ) . But the unhappinesse of these principles whereof we speak , did keep him , as he professeth , from making use of that great opportunity and large door which the Lord there hath opened to all who will be zealous for propagating of the Gospel ( S ) . Thirdly , the fruits of Independency may be seen in the profession and practices of the most who have been admitted , as very fit , if not the fittest members of their Churches . These have much exceeded any of the Brownists that yet we have heard of ; first , in the vilenesse of their Errours ; secondly , in the multitude of the erring persons ; thirdly , in the hypocrisie joyned with their errours ; fourthly , in malice against their neighbours , and contempt of their Superiours , Magistrates and Ministers for their opposition to them in their evil ways ; and lastly , in their singular obstinacie , stiffly sticking unto their errours , in defiance of all that any upon earth could do for their reclaiming , or that God from heaven , almost miraculously , had declared against them . All this I will make good , by the unquestionable Testimonies of their loving friends . For the vilenesse of their Errours : They did avow openly the personal inhabitation of the Spirit in all the godly , his immediate revelations without the Word ; and these as infallible as Scripture it self ( T ) : This is the vilest Montanism . They avowed further , with the grossest Antinomians , That no sin must trouble any childe of God : That all trouble of conscience for any sin , demonstrates a man subject to the Covenant of Works , but a stranger to the Covenant of Grace ( V ) : That no Christian is bound to look upon the Law as a rule of his conversation ( X ) : That no Christian should be prest to any duty of holinesse ( Y ) . Neither here did they stand , but went on to aver the death of the soul with the body ( Z ) : That all the Saints upon earth have two bodies ( AA ) : That Christ is not united to our fleshly body ; but they would have him to be united to our new body ( BB ) , with the same union where with his humanity is united with his Godhead : That Christs Manhood was not now in the heavens ( CC ) , but that his body was his Church . These abominable errours , and many more of this kinde , to the number of Fourscore and eleven ( DD ) , the New-English Independency did produce to the world in a very short time . For the second , The number of the erring persons ; this is said to have been incredible ; not onely multitudes of men and women every where were infected ( EE ) , but almost no Society , no Family of that Land was free of that Pest ( BB ) : Boston , the best and most famous of their Churches , was so far corrupted , that few there were untainted ( GG ) . Concerning the Hypocrisie of these Hereticks , it was exceeding great : None appeared so humble , so holy , so spiritual , and full of Christ , as they ( HH ) : In their speech , nought but self-denial ( II ) : In their prayers , ravishing affections , and heavenly expressions ( KK ) : All their singular opinions , were for the advancing of Free-grace ( LL ) ; For the glorious light of the Gospel ; for the setting up of naked Christ on his Throne ( MM ) . Their malice towards all that dissented from them , was so extreme , that they made the life of many , the most religious of their Neighbours , to be bitter and a wearisome burden to them ( NN ) . For their Ministers , some of them they adored : Master Cotton and Master Wheelwright , they set up as the onely true Preachers of the Covenant of Grace ; they extolled them to the skies , avowing , that since the Apostles dayes , none had received so much Gospel-Light , as they ( OO ) : But the rest of the Preachers , not onely all in Old England ( PP ) , but also all in New-England , except a very few , and most of all the best , the most zealous and Orthodox , even the instruments of their own conversion , were to them Baals Priests , Legal Preachers , Popish Factors , Scribes and Pharisees , Enemies to the Gospel , voide of the Spirit of Grace ( QQ ) . Their contempt of the Magistrates was as great as of the Ministers : Their late Governour they professed was a true friend to Christ , and Free-grace ( RR ) ; but Master Winthrop their present Governour , and the most of the Magistrates , they proclaimed enemies of Grace , Persecutors , Antichrists , Ahabs , Herods , Pilates , whom God would destroy ( SS ) . Their Preacher , Master Wheelwright , would exhort the people in his Sermon , to deal with the Magistrates as such , remembring them how Moses had killed the Egyptian ( TT ) . Their Heresies did bring on so dangerous seditions , as in a short time did put their Common-wealth in a clear hazard of utter ruine ( VV ) ; for the Heretikes had drawn to their side , not onely multitudes of the people , but many of the ablest men for parts , in all Trades , especially the Souldiers ( XX ) . They kept such intimate familiarity , and open correspondence with the most eminent men of the Land ; Mistresse Hutchinson , and the late Governour , kept almost every day so private and long discourse with Master Cotton , that made them conclude all was their own ( YY ) , and forced the wise Governour , Master Winthrop , to prevent their designes , to put the former Governour , and all that followed him , from their places in the general Court , and to desire him and them to be gone , which was counted a real , though a civil banishment out of their Land ( ZZ ) : Also to disarm the most of that faction expresly upon fear , least the Tragedy of Munster should be acted over again in New-England ( AAA ) . Master Williams told me , that he was imployed to buy from the Savages , for the late Governour , and Master Cotton , with their followers , a proportion of Land without the English Plantation , whither they might retire and live according to their own minde , exempt from the Jurisdiction , Civil , and Ecclesiastick , of all others . Master Williams was in so great friendship with that late Governour , when he told me so much , That I beleeve he would have been loth to have spoken any untruth of him . Their obstinacy in all these things was truely marvellous ; for after all the pains which their godly Pastors took upon them , in Preaching , in Conference , in Publike Disputations : After the Magistrate had executed the Law , and inflicted civil punishments upon some of their prime Seducers ; yea , when God visibly from the Heavens had declared his anger against some of their cheif Leaders , punishing Mistresse Hutchinson with a monstruous birth of more then thirty mis-shapen Creatures at one time ( BBB ) , and Mistresse Dyer her principal assistant , with another monstrous birth ( CCC ) of one Creature , mixed of a Beast , of a Fish , and a Foul : Notwithstanding all these admonitions , their obstinacy was so great , that many of them continued pertinacious without any repentance ( DDD ) . For some of them separating of their own accord , others being banished by the Magistrate , retired into those Lands which Master Williams had bought for them ; and in that their new Habitation , they continued not long ; till beside all the named Errours , they fell into many more , both Errours and Schisms ( EEE ) . And Mistresse Hutchinson did make a new Separation , retiring to a new dwelling ( FFF ) , where after her long contempt of divine and humane patience , at last God did let loose his hand , and destroyed her , sending in upon her a company of the Savages , who burnt her self , her house , and all that she had ( GGG ) . Notwithstanding all that God and man at that time and since hath done to discover the evil spirit that raged in that way , yet such is the stoutnesse of many , especially of the late Governour , whose hand in all that businesse was cheif , that to this day if you will confer with them , they will assure , That Mistresse Hutchinson was much mistaken and wronged ; that she was a most pious woman , and that her Tenents if well understood , were all true , at least very tolerable . We have oft marvelled , that the Eldership of Boston did never so much as call her before them to be rebuked for any of her Errours ; though their general Assembly had confuted and condemned them , yet still she was permitted to go on , till the zeal of the new Governour , and the general Court did condemn her to perpetual banishment ; then , and not till then , so far as we can perceive by the story , did the Church of Boston begin a processe against her ; and when the processe was brought to an end , Master Cotton by no means would put it in execution ; that burden was laid on the back of Master Wilson his Colleague , how ever not the fittest instrument , being the person to whom Mistresse Hutchinson from the beginning had professed her greatest opposition ; and when the sentence was pronounced against her , they tell us , That the great cause of it was none of her Heresies or Errours , but her other practises especially , her grosse lying ( HHH ) . The prophanenesse also of these persons is considerable , their profession of piety being so fair , that they avow their standing aloof from all the Reformed Churches as unclean , because of their mixture with the prophane multitude . Beside all that is said of their Heresies , Schisms , Contentions , Contempt of Magistrates and Ministers , all which are the prophane works of the flesh : We read of further pollution , breaking out among them , as both Master Cotton , and Master Wells do testifie ( III ) . Out of the Governour , Master Winthrops Narration , I remark one abomination , which to me seems strange , That the Midwives , to their most zealous women , should not onely have familiarity with the divel ; but also in that very service , should commit divellish Malefices , which , so far as they tell us , were not onely past over without punishment , but never so much as inquired after ( KKK ) . All this and more , we read of the Independents in New-England , in one short Narration of two or three yeers accidents among them ; what if we had their full History from any faithful hand ? it seems that many more mysteries would be brought to light , which now are hid in darknesse . It is not our intention to bring any man to a prejudice , or the least distast of the Grace and Gifts which God hath bestowed on Master Cotton or any other in New-England would to God , that all our Questions with them , were come to that issue ; they should finde us here as willing as their greatest admirers , to prize , to embrace , and as our weaknesse will permit , to imitate what ever good did shine in any of them : But we have made these Observations from what themselves have written , to bring if it be possible , their own hearts ; or if this be desperate , yet the mindes of others , to a suspition of that their new and singular way , which the Lord hath so manifestly cursed with bader fruits , and greater store of them then ever yet did appear upon the Tree of Brownism , which they do so much disgrace as an unlucky Plant : notwithstanding , all the Gifts and Graces wherewith Ainsworth , Robinson , and some others of its Branches , have been adorned by God in as rich a measure as have been seen in any , who to this day have ingrafted themselves into their new and bitter root of Independency . The Testimonies . ( A ) Master Cottons Letter to Skelton , p. 3. Your other Errour that our Congregations in England , are none of them particular Reformed Churches , requireth rather a Book then a Letter to answer it . You went hence of another judgement , and I am afraid , your change hath sprung from New-Plymouth men , whom though I much esteem as godly loving Christians ; yet their Grounds , which for this Tenent they received from Master Robinson , do not satisfie me , though the man I reverence as godly and learned . Rathbones Narration , p. 1. The Church at New-Plymouth was as I am informed , one of the first Churches that was settled in New-England , having been a part of Master Robinsons Church in Holland , that famous Brownist , from whence they brought with their Church Opinions and Practises ; and which they there still hold without any alteration , so far as ever I could learn. Master W. an eminent man of the Church at Plimouth , told W. R. that the rest of the Churches of New-England came at first to them at Plimouth , to crave their direction in Church courses , and made them their patern . ( B ) Vide Purchase Pilgrims in his discourses of America , in divers Letters from New-England . ( C ) Cottons Letter to the Reader before Hildershams Commentary upon John , 1632. That one Letter of his to a Gentlewoman against the Separation , which without his consent a Separatist Printed , and Refuted , hath so strongly and cleerly convinced the Iniquity of that way , that I could not but acknowledge in it , both the wisedom of God , and the weaknesse of the Separatists : His wisedom in bringing to light such a beam of his Truth by the hand of an adversary , against the minde of the Author ; and the weaknesse of the other , to advance the hand of this Adversary , to give himself and his cause such a deadly wound in open view , as neither himself nor all his associates can be able to heal ; in which respect , I conceive it was that the industrious Doctor Willet stileth this our Author , Schismaticorum qui vulgo Brownistae vocantur Malleus : The Hammer of Schismaticks whom they commonly call Brownists . ( D ) Vide supra . A. ( E ) Edwards Antapology , p. 17. Knowing something of the story of Master Goodwins first coming to fall off from the Ceremonies , having seen and perused the Arguments that past betwixt him and Master Cotton , and some others : Master Goodwin assured me some moneths after his going off , that he had nothing to say , but against the Ceremonies the Liturgy offended him not , much lesse dreamed he of this Church-way he since fell into . ( F ) Cottons Letter from New-England to his friends at Boston , October 5. 1635. Some other things there be , which were I again with you , I durst not take that liberty which some times I have taken : I durst not joyn in your Book-Prayers . ( G ) Ibidem . I durst not now partake in the Sacraments with you , though the Ceremonies were removed . I know not how you can be excused from Fellowship of their sins , if you continue in your place . While you and some of my other friends continue with them , I fear the rest will settle upon their Lees with more security . The wise-hearted that left their Stations in Israel , I doubt not , were some of them , if not all , useful and serviceable men in their places ; yet they did themselves and their Brethren more good service in going before their Brethren , as the Goats before the Flocks , Jere. 50.8 . then if they had tarried with them to the corrupting of their own wayes . 2 Chro. 11.14 , 16. Antap. p. 32. After his going into New-England , and falling into the Church-way there , and sending over Letters into England about the new way , presently after these Letters began the falling off and questioning Communion in our Churches . ( H ) Antap. p. 32. One of you , to wit , Master Goodwin was so ingaged in his thoughts of one of the Ministers of New-England , to wit , Master Cotton , by whom I am sure , he was first taken off , that he hath said , there was not such another man in the world again . Ibidem , p. 22. One of you told some friends , that he had found out a Form of Church-Government , as far beyond Master Cartwrights , as his was beyond that of the Bishops . Master Williams Examination of Master Cottons Letter , p. 47. Some of the most eminent amongst them have affirmed , that even the Apostles Churches were not so pure , as the new English Churches . ( I ) Vide supra . F. ( K ) Antap. p. 40. He hath had his Errours , and I refer you for proof to his discourse about cleering the Doctrine of Reprobation . See the Preface of Doctor Twisse his Answer . ( L ) The short Story in the Preface , par . 10. What men they saw Eminent in the Countrey , and of most esteem in the hearts of the people , they would be sure still to father their opinions upon them , and say , I hold nothing but what I had from such and such a man. Ibid. p. 65. She pretended she was of Master Cottons judgement in all things . ( M ) Williams Examination , p. 12. Some few yeers since he was upon the point to separate from the Churches there , as legal . Ibidem , p. 33. How could I possibly be ignorant as he seems to charge me , of their estate , when being from first to last in Fellowship with them , an Officer amongst them , had private and publike agitations concerning their estate with all or most of their Ministers . ( N ) Short story , Preface , p. 7. By this time they had to patronise them , some of the Magistrates , and some men eminent for Religion , Parts , and Wit. Ibidem , p. 25. Master Wheelwright had taught them , that the former Governour and some of the Magistrates then were friends of Christ and Free-grace , but the present were enemies . The former Governour never stirred out but attended by the Serjeants with Halberts or Carrabines , but the present Governour was neglected . Ibid. p. 35. After that she had drawn some of eminent place , and parts , to her party , whereof some profited so well as in a few moneths they out-went their Teacher . Ibidem , p. 33. Vpon the countenance which it took from some eminent persons , her opinions began to hold up their heads in the Court of Justice . ( N 2. ) Ibidem , p. 32. It was a wonder , upon what a sudden the whole Church of Boston , some few excepted were become her new converts , and infected with her opinions . Ibid. Preface , p. 7. In the Church of Boston most of these Seducers lived . Ibid. p. 36. The Court laid to her charge , the reproach she had cast upon the Ministery in this Countrey , saying That none of them did preach the Covenant of Free-grace but Master Cotton . She told them that there was a wide difference between Master Cottons Ministery and theirs ; and that they could not hold forth a Covenant of Free-grace , because they had not the Seal of the Spirit . Ibidem . p. 50. All the Ministers consented to this , except their Brother the Teacher of Boston . Ibid. p. 52. Master Wheelwright being present , spoke nothing , though he well discerned that the judgement of the most of the Magistrates , and near all the Ministers closed with the affirmative . Ibidem , p. 21. Albeit , the Assembly of the Churches had confuted and condemned most of these new opinions , and Master Cotton had in publike view consented with the rest ; yet the Leaders in these Erroneous wayes , stood still to maintain their new Light ; Master Wheelwright also continued his preaching after his former manner ; and Mistresse Hutchinson her wonted meetings and exercises ; and much offence was still given by her , and others , in going out of the ordinary Assemblies . When ( Mr. Wilson ) the Pastor of Boston began any exercise , it was conceived by the Magistrate that the case was now desperate , and it was determined to suppresse them by Civil Authority . ( O ) Apologetical Narration , p. 5. We had likewise the fatal miscarriages and shipwracks of the Separation , whom you call Brownists , as Land-marks to forewarn us of these Rocks and Shelves they run upon . Cottons Letter to Williams , pag. 12. I said that God had not prospered the way of Separation , because he hath not blessed it either with peace among themselves or with growth of grace . The Lord Jesus never delivered that way of Separation to which they bear witnesse , nor any of his Apostles after him , nor of his Prophets before him . We do not come forth to help them against Jehovah ; this were not to help Jehovah , but Satan against him . We cannot pray in Faith for a blessing upon their Separation , which we see not to be of God , nor to lead to him : It is little comfort to the true Servants of Christ that such inventions of men are multiplied . ( P ) Answer to the thirty two Questions , p. 7. Whether is the greater number , these that are admitted to Church-Communion , or these that are not , we cannot certainly tell . ( Q 1. ) Plain dealing , p. 73. Here such confessions and professions are required , both in private and publike , both by men and women , before they be admitted , that three parts of the people of the Countrey remain out of the Church , so that in short time , most of the people will remain unbaptised . ( Q 2. Williams of the name Heathen , p. 6. Nations protesting against the Beast , no Papists , but Protestants , may we say of them that they or any of them may be called in true Scripture sence , Heathens , that is , the Nations or Gentiles , in opposition to the people of God , which is the onely Holy Nation ? Such a departure from the Beast in a false constitution of National Churches , if the bodies of Protestant Nations remain in an unregenerate estate , Christ hath said they are but as Heathens and Publicans . ( Q 3. ) Plain dealing , p. 21. There hath not been any sent forth by any Church , to learn the Natives language , or to instruct them in our Religion first , because they say they have not to do with them being without , except they come to hear , and learn English . ( R ) Williams of the name Heathen , p. 10. For our New-England parts , I can speak it confidently , I know it to have been easie for my self , long ere this , to have brought many thousands of these Natives , yea , the whole Countrey to a far greater Antichristian conversion , then ever was heard of in America . I could have brought the whole Countrey to have observed one day in seven : I adde , to have received Baptism , to have come to a stated Church meeting , to have maintained Priests , and Forms of Prayer , and a whole form of Antichristian worship in life and death . ( S ) Ibid. p. 11. Wo be to me , if I call that conversion to God , which is indeed the subversion of the souls of millons in Christendom , from one false worship to another . Williams Key unto the language of America , p. 9. To which I could easily have brought the Countrey , but that I was perswaded , and am , that Gods way is first to turn a soul from its idols , both of heart , worship , and conversation , before it is capable of worship to the true God. ( T ) Short story , p. 32. Many good souls were brought to waite for this immediate revelation ; then sprung up also that opinion of the indwelling of the person of the Holy Ghost . Ibidem , Preface , p. 13. That their own revelations of particular events , were as infallible as the Scripture . ( V ) Short story , Preface , pag. 2. Sin in a childe of God must never trouble him . Trouble in conscience for sins of Commission , or for neglect of duties , sheweth a man to be under a Covenant of Works . ( X ) Short story Preface , p. 2. A Christian is not bound to the Law as the rule of his conversation . ( Y ) Ibid. p. 3. No Christian must be pressed to duties of Holinesse . ( Z ) Short story Preface , p. 13. Their Leaders fell into more hideous delusions , as that the souls of men are mortal like the Beasts . ( AA ) Short story , p. 59. These who are united to Christ , have in this life new bodies , and two bodies . ( BB ) Ibid. She knoweth not how Jesus Christ should be united to this our fleshly body ; these who have union with Christ , shall not rise with the same fleshly body ; and that the Resurrection mentioned in 1 Cor. 15.44 . is not meant of the Resurrection of the body , but of our union here in this life . ( CC ) Ibid. p. 60. We are united to Christ with the same union that his humanity on earth was with his Deity . That she had no Scripture to warrant that Christs manhood is now is Heaven ; but the body of Christ is his Church . ( DD ) Ibid. Preface , p. 1. You shall see a Litter of ninty one of their brats hung up against the Sun , besides many new ones of Mistresse Hutchinsons . ( EE ) Ibid. Multitudes of men and women were infected before they were aware . ( FF ) Ibid. Preface , p. 7. They had some of all sorts and qualities in all places , to defend and patronise them : Almost in every family , some were ready to defend them as the Apple of their own eye . ( GG ) Vide supra . N 2. ( HH ) Short story Preface , pag. 4. They would appear very humble , holy , and spiritual Christians , and full of Christ . ( II ) Ibid. They would deny themselves far , and speak excellently . ( KK ) Ibid. They would pray with such soul ravishing affections and expressions , that a stranger could not but love and admire them . ( LL ) Ibid. They lifted up their opinions by guilding them over with the specious termes of Free-grace , Glorious-Light , Gospel-Truths , holding out naked Christ . ( MM ) Vide supra . LL. ( NN ) Preface , p. 7. O their boldnesse , pride , insolency , the disturbances , divisions , contentions they raised among us , both in Church and State , and Families , setting division betwixt Husband and Wife ! Ibid. p. 9. And seeing a spirit of pride , subtilty , malice and contempt of all men that were not of their minde breathing in them , our hearts were sadded , and our spirits tyred . ( OO ) Ibid. p. 4. Their followers in admiration of them , would tell others , that since the Apostles times , they were perswaded none ever received so much light from God , as such and such had done , naming their Leaders . See also before H. ( PP ) Short story , pag. 39. She said it was revealed to her long since in England , That all the pack of the Ministers there were Antichristian , so that she durst hear none of them , after Master Cotton and Master Wheelwright were once gone ; for they could not preach Christ , and the new Covenant . ( QQ ) Preface , pag. 8. The faithful Ministers of Christ must have dung cast in their faces , and be no better then legal Preachers , Baals Priests , Popish Factors , Scribes , Pharisees , and Opposers of Christ himself . ( RR ) Vide supra . N 1. ( SS ) Preface , p. 9. The Magistrates were Achabs , Amazia's , enemies to Christ , led by Satan . ( TT ) Ibid. These were enemies to Christ ; Herods , Pilates , Scribes and Pharisees , yea , Antichrists ; and advised all under a Covenant of Grace , to look upon them as such : And with great zeal did stimulate them to deal with them as such , and alleadged the story of Moses that killed the Egyptian , and left it barely so . ( VV ) Ibid. It was a wonder of mercy , that they had not set our Common-wealth and Churches on a fire , and consumed us all therein . ( XX ) Preface , pag. 7. They had some of all quality to defend them , some of the Magistrates , some Gentlemen , some Schollers , some of our Captains and Souldiers , some in Military Trainings . ( YY ) Short story , p. 33. They made full accompt the day had been theirs . ( ZZ ) Master Williams in his Discourse to me , assured me hereof . ( AAA ) Short story , p. 43. Vnder their conduct , the old Serpent had prepared such an Ambushment , as in all reason would soon have driven Christ and the Gospel out of New-England , ( though to the ruine of the instruments themselves , as well as of others ) and to the repossessing of Satan in his ancient Kingdom . ( BBB ) Preface , p. 12. Mistresse Hutchinson being big with childe , and growing towards the time of her Labour , brought out not one , but thirty monstrous births or thereabouts at once , none at all of them of humane shape . ( CCC ) Ibid. Mistresse Dyer brought forth her birth of a Woman childe , a Beast , a Fish , and a Foul , all woven together in one , and without an head . ( DDD ) Ibid. Though he that runs may read their sin in these judgements , yet , behold the desperate hardnesse of heart in these persons , and all their followers ; they turned all from themselves upon the faithful servants of God that laboured to reclaim them , saying , This is for you ye Legalists , that your eyes might be further blinded by Gods hand upon us in your legal wayes , that you may stumble and fall , and in the end break your necks in Hell , if ye imbrace not the Truth . ( EEE ) Ibid. p. 5. These persons with many others infected by them , went altogether out of our Jurisdiction into an Iland , and there they live to this day most of them , hatching and multiplying new opinions , and cannot agree , but are miserably divided into sundry Sects and Factions . ( FFF ) Mistresse Hutchinson being weary of the Iland , went from thence with all her family , to live under the Dutch , neer a place in the Map called Hell-gate . ( GGG ) There the Indians set upon them , and slew her and all her family ; her daughter , and her daughters husband ; and all their children , save one that escaped . Some write that the Indians did burn her to death , withall that belonged to her . I never heard that the Indians in these parts did commit the like outrage upon any other . ( HHH ) Vide KKK 1. ( III ) Ibid. p. 13. They grew also many of them very loose in their practises ; for these opinions will certainly produce a filthy life by degrees : As no Prayer in their Familes , no Sabbath , insufferable pride , frequent and hideous lying ; and some of them became guilty of fouler sins then all these , which I here name not . Cottons third Sermon , 6. Vial , pag. 9. The calamities of the Countrey are from God ; he takes away all ; whether by our pride , that we must have every new fashion , and be like the men of the world , in houses , apparel , and the like ; or daintinesse , that we must have our varieties , though it cost never so much , and no matter what followeth , though it eat up our estates . The Lord hath made use of our folly , and pride , and daintinesse , our idlenesse , and covetousnesse . Idem . 2. Vial , pag. 26. We know that in England there is no such unfaithful dealing , and hollow heartednesse ? no such bitternesse between Christians . What will befal your posterity , they will degenerate out of measure , by the unfaithfulnesse of your lives , and the unrighteousnesse of your promises . ( KKK 1. ) Short story , p. 44. The Midwife , one Hawkins , was notorious for familiarity with the divel , and now a prime Familist : The most of the Women who were present at Mistresse Dyers travel , were suddenly taken with such a violent vomiting , and purging , without eating or drinking of any thing , as they were forced to go home ; others had their children taken with Convulsions , which they had not before , nor since , and so were sent for home : So that none were left at the birth , but the Midwife and two other ; whereof one fell asleep at such time as the childe died , which was about two hours before the birth : The Bed wherein the mother lay , shook so violently , that all who were in the Room perceived it . ( KKK 2. ) Ibid. p. 63 , 64. Then Master Cotton told the Assembly , That whereas she had been formerly dealt with for matter of Doctrine , he had according to the duty of his place , being the Teacher of the Church , proceeded against her unto admonition : But now the case bring altered , and she being questioned for maintaining of untruth , which is matter of Manners , he must leave the businesse to the Pastor Master Wilson to go on with her ; but withal declared his judgement in the case from that in the Revelation , ch . 22. That such as make and maintain a lie , ought to be cast out of the Church ; and whereas two or three pleaded that she might first have a second Admonition , according to that in Titus 3.10 . He answered , That that was onely for such as erred in point of Doctrine ; but such as shall notoriously offend in matter of conversation , ought to be presently cast out , as he proved by Ananias and Saphira , and the incestuous Corinthian . Ibid. p. 65. It was observed that she should now come under Admonition for many foul and fundamental Errours , and after he cast out for notorious lying . CHAP. IV. The Carriage of the Independents in Holland , at Roterdam , and Arnhem . THe fruits of this way in Holland , are not much sweeter then these we have tasted in New-England . All the time of their abode there , they were not able to conquer to their party more then two Congregations ; and these but very small ones , of the English onely : For to this day , I have not heard of any one man of the Dutch , French , Scottish , or any other Reformed Church , who have become a Member of any Independent Congregation . Their first Church in Holland was that of Roterdam , which Master Peters ( A ) ( not the most settled head in the World ) did draw from its ancient Presbyterial Constitution , to that new frame which it seemeth he also learned by Master Cottons Letters from New-England . This Church became no sooner Independent , then it run into the way of such shameful Divisions as their Mother at Amsterdam had gone before them . Their Pastor Master Peters , was soon weary of them , or they of him ; for what causes themselves best know ; but sure it is , he quickly left them , and went for New-England . The Church was not long destitute of Pastors ; for about that time Master Ward and Master Bridge came over to them from Norwich , where they ever had lived fully conform , without any contradiction either to Episcopacy or Ceremonies , onely they withstood Bishop Wrens last Innovations ( B ) . So soon as they came to Roterdam , without any long time of adveisement , they conformed themselves to the Discipline which Master Peters had planted ( C ) ; They renounced their English Ordination and Ministerial Office , joyning themselves as meer private men to that Congregation , which afterward did choose and ordain both of them to be their Ministers ( D ) . It was not long before Master Simpson also came hither from London , and renouncing also his Ordination ( E ) , joyned himself as a private member with them . Then did the Spirit of Division begin to work among them , and so far to prevail , that Master Simpson malecontent with Master Bridge , for hindering the private members of the flock to prophesie after the Brownists way , did separate himself and erect a new Congregation of his own ( F ) : Betwixt these two Churches , the contentions and slanders became no lesse grievous then those of Amsterdam betwixt Ainsworth and Johnsons followers ; and in this much worse , that they of Roterdam abode not at one Schism ; but after Master Simpsons separation , broke out again into another subdivision . Master Bridges Congregation was so filled with strife , so shameful slanders were laid upon his own back , that displeasure did hasten the death of his wife ( G ) , and did well neer kill himself , making him oft professe his repentance that ever he entred into that society ( H ) . As for Master Ward , his Ministery became so unsavoury to that people , that they did never rest till judicially by their own Authority alone ( for Presbytery they had none , and Master Bridge did dissent from that act of unjust oppression ) they had deposed Master Ward from his pastoral charge ( I ) . This act was much stumbled at by divers who were fully perswaded of Master Wards integrity , and at last by the intercession of some from the Church of Arnhem he was restored to his place ; but the ground of the controversie was no wayes touched : For when the four Commissioners from Arnhem , Master Goodwin , Master Nye , Master Laurence , and another , had met in a Chamber of a private house in Roterdam , with some Members of that faulty Congregation ( K ) , and so made up their famous Assembly , which the Apologists are pleased to equal , if not to prefer to all the Assemblies they ever had seen ( L ) : Whether that National Synod , wherein Master Nye had seen the flowre of the Scottish Nation enter into the Covenant with very great devotion : Or this great Assembly at Westminster , where he and his Brethren oft have seen sitting the Prince Elector , the most Noble Members of both Houses of Parliament , the prime Divines of all England , the Commissioners of the Church of Scotland . That Assembly , I say of Roterdam , did not so much as touch the main question ; they drew a thin skin over the wound , but durst not assay to lance it to the bottom . For did they ever rebuke , or so much as once speak to the people of that Congregation , for usurping a Tyrannicall Authority to depose their Pastor . Did they tell Master Ward of his siding with Master Simpson , against Master Bridge , in the matter of Prophesie ? did they ever attempt to cognosce on the great scandal , the ground of all the rest , Master Simpsons Separation ? did they make any hearty and solid reconciliation betwixt Master Ward and the Church ? It seems the Assembly was wiser then to meddle with evils , which they found much above their strength to remedy . Master Ward found himself after his restitution in so pittiful a condition with his new friends , that he left their Company ( M ) . The two Churches were irreconcileable , till both Master Bridge , and Mr. Simpson had removed their Stations to England ; and even then the concord could not be obtained , till the Dutch Magistrate had interposed his authority ( N ) : Neither by this means could Master Simpsons Church be perswaded to return to Master Bridges , till for their meer pleasure they got that Congregation to remove one of their prime members , without the alleadging of any cause but their own peremptory will and satisfaction ( O ) . When by so much a do these two divided Churches are brought together , it may be much doubted , if their Union shall long continue . Certainly , it seems not to be so cordial , as that of the two lately divided , and now reunited Churches a● Amsterdam . For among these of Roterdam , not onely the grounds of the old division do evidently remain , but also the Seeds of a new breach do appear above the ground . The liberty of Prophecying , which Master Simpsons ( now Master Simons ) Congregation did require , is not obtained in the way they desired it ; for they are not permitted to Prophecy in the Congregation , nor upon the Sabbath day , nor in the place of publike meeting : Onely in a private place , on a week day , where some of the Church who please do meet ; they have liberty to exercise their gifts . On the other part , what Master Bridges ( now Mr. Parks ) Church did require , I mean a Presbytery for Government in the Congregation , cannot be obtained . For however , they professe the lawfulnesse and conveniency of Ruling Elders , and of a Consistory for Discipline ; yet it hath so faln out that for many yeers they have had none , neither are like in haste to have , unlesse the grumbling of Master Parks and his friends threatning a new breach , do force them at last to the use of that Ordinance . But that which threatneth not a Schisme alone , but a total dissolution of that Congregation , is the Pest of Anabaptism , which begins of late much to infect them ( P ) . It is true , the Pastors do their best to reclaim all their members from that Errour ; and when they finde themselves not able to prevail , give good words and assurances of a full and Brotherly Toleration ; for as they scruple not to give the hand of Fellowship to the Brownists of Amsterdam ( Q ) ; so will they not cast out any from their Church for denying of Pedobaptism , if the dissenting and erring party be pleased to remain peaceably amongst them : But here is the pitty , when the Independents have declared their greatest readinesse to tolerate and entertain in their Churches , both the rigid Separatists , and the Anabaptists ( R ) ; yet the most of those are unwilling to stay , but are peremptory to separate from the Independent Churches as more corrupt then that they with a good conscience can abide in them , though never so much tolerated and cherished . As for their Church at Arnhem , howsoever their small intercourse with others , during their abode in that remote corner , and their taciturnity of their own affairs , makes their proceedings to lie under a Cover ; yet so much of their wayes is come to light upon divers occasions , as will not be very inductive and alluring of indifferent spirits , to tred in their footsteps . First , We finde them greater admirers of themselves and proclaimers of their own excellency then is the custome of modest and wise , though the best and greatest men . They think it not enough to anoint their Masters and Friends of New-England with excessive praises , as men who have not been matched by any of the Saints since the dayes of Abraham ( S ) ; but they are also bold to sound out to themselves in Print in the ears of both Houses of Parliament , a commendation much above the possible merit of any so small a number of men in the whole world . The Synod of Roterdam they equal to the most solemn National Assemblies of either or both Kingdoms ( T ) . This exceeding great worth upon whose head must it fall , but either alone or far most principally upon the Members of the Church of Arnhem ? For that Synod did consist of no other but the two Doctors of that Church , and the two Elders thereof , together with Master Bridge , and the Members of his Church . These last were present in that Synod as persons challenged , and guilty of a grievous scandal ; so to them in that action , but a small praise can be due : Wherefore , the supereminent Excellency of that meeting , must fall upon the Commissioners of Arnhem , the onely persons which in that meeting were void of offence , and free from challenges . To themselves therefore it is alone , or at least above all others , that they ascribe the superlative praises of that Synod . In that same place they stick not to take to themselves the honour of so great sincerity as any flesh in the world not onely hath at this present , but possibly can attain in any following Age ( V ) . We wonder the lesse to hear them canonize their Colleague Master Archer after his death , among the most precious persons who ever trod upon the earth ( X ) . This self-overvaluing seems to be the ground why they cry out of their very moderate afflictions as of great calamities ; they ingeminate to the Parliament , over and over , their persecution , their poverty , their miserable exile ( Y ) ; when they who understand the case , give assurance , that not one of Ten of the most prosperous Ministers of the whole world , in the time of their greatest Sunshine , do live in more wealth , ease , honour , and all worldly accommodations , then these poor miserable exiles did enjoy all the time of that which they call their banishment ( Z ) . My next observation upon that Church , is , that an humour of innovating at least , if not a spirit of errour , did much predomine among them . To passe by that wantonnesse of wit , which in their Books , and Discourses doth much appear , whereby they attribute without fear , to a number of Scriptures , such new and strange senses as before them were never heard of : We finde them pleasing themselves in divers Doctrines , which no Reformed Church doth assert for truth , yea , their own Brethren , both of New-England , and of Roterdam , and of Amsterdam , do reject as Errours . They are not content with some few little touches of Chiliasm , which yet Master Cotton tells us are but fleshly imaginations ( AA ) : But they run themselves over head and ears in the deepest gulph of that old Heresie . The glimpse of Sions glory Preached at a Fast in Holland by T. G. ( which common report without any contradiction that I have heard declares to be Thomas Goodwin ) averrs , That Independency is a beginning , or at least a neer antecedent of Christs Kingdom upon Earth ( BB ) : That within five yeers Christ is to come in the flesh ( CC ) ; and by a Sword of Iron , to kill with his own hand the most of his enemies ( DD ) ; and thereafter to passe over a thousand yeers ( EE ) as a worldly Monarch ( FF ) with his Saints : Who shall live with him all that time in all sorts of fleshly delights ( GG ) . Master Archer the onely Pastor that ever they had , whose praises they sound forth so loud in their Apologetick , would perswade us of the same , and more grosse stories ( HH ) . Master Burrows in his late Sermons upon Hosea , runs in the same way ( II. ) Neither is this all the new Light that did shine forth in the Candlestick of Arnhem ; but there also Master Archer giveth forth , for the comfort of his hearers , without the reproof so far as yet we have heard of any of his Colleagues , That God is not onely the Author of sin ( KK ) , but also of the sinfulnesse , the very Formality , the Anomy , the Ataxy , the Pravity of sin ( LL ) . A doctrine which all Protestants ever did abhor as high Blasphemy ; and which , the Assembly of Divines , with both the Houses of Parliament , did condemn as such ; appointing Master Archers Book for that worst Heresie of the Libertines , and grossest Blasphemy of the Antinomians , to be solemnly burnt by the hand of the Hangman ( MM ) . There was also another sparkle of new Light brake up in that Church , wherein one of their Doctors doth so much delight to this day ; That not being content to have holden it out in Holland , he is said to have Preached it over and over in the most solemn Assemblies both of Scotland and England ; That it is a duty incumbent to all who would be perfit , to know God as God , without Christ , without the Scripture , in notions abstracted , not onely from all Grace , but from all Scripture , and from Christ ( NN ) . I dare not affix unto this , the late Doctrine of some Seraphick Jesuites and Monks , wherein they have extravagated in their Lent Sermons , so many absurd and Heretical senses , as some very learned and good men have done in Print without any answer ( OO ) ; yet I must professe , if it be a truth , it is a very metaphysical one and much transcending my shallow understanding . In that Church also the Doctrine of extreme Unction was so far brought back , That they began to annoint their sick with oyl ( PP ) ; taking it as an Ordinance of Christ , and a kinde of a Sacrament for the people , at least a holy Ceremony , no lesse of divine ▪ Institution then Ordination and imposition of hands were for Officers ( QQ . ) Also , they set on Foot another Religious ceremony in their Congregation , the holy Apostolick kisse ( RR ) . And as if all these innovations had not been sufficient , they begun to put down all singing of Psalms , and to set up in their place Their singing Prophets , making one man alone to sing in the midst of the silent Congregation , the hymns which he out of his own gift had composed ( SS 1 ) . And this as I am informed by some who have been present , is now the settled practice of the remainder of the Church of Arnhem . Master Edwards layes to their charge , not onely that their principles lead to that horrible Errour which 〈◊〉 of their followers maintain , The mortality of the sou● 〈◊〉 but also , that their cheif Doctors had Preached , both is 〈◊〉 and England , without the rebuke of any of their fr● 〈…〉 of the Saints go not after death to the Heavens ( SS● ) . 〈…〉 same place , the Pastor of Arnhem , without the reproof o● any of his party to this day , so far as ever I heard , doth take away , and deny , that Heaven and that Hell which all Christians before him did ever beleeve ; and in the place thereof , gives us new Heavens and new Hells of his own invention : He tells us confidently , That no soul before Christs Ascension , did ever enter into that place which we commonly call Heaven , neither ever shall enter there , if you except Christ alone , unto the last day : That all the souls of the godly remain in a place of the higher Region of the Air , or at highest in the Element of the Fire ; That Enoch and Elias , that the soul of Christ , before the Resurrection , and the soul of the good Theif , went no higher ( SS 4. ) He tells us , That the place of the damned before the last judgement , is not any infernal fire , but some prison in the low Region of the Air , or at lowest , in some place of the Sea. After the day of judgement , he makes Hell a very large place ; the whole Elements , the Heavens of the Planets and of the fixed Stars , yea , the whole Heavens , except that wherein God and the Angels do dwell , being all turned to their first matter , to him is Hell : With such fine new speculations do the Independent Pastors feed their Flocks ( SS 5 ) . I have heard also one of their Doctors deliver it as his opinion , That it was expedient for the Minister in Preaching to have his head covered ; and the people in time of Preaching to sit uncovered : But in the holy Communion , that it was expedient the Minister should celebrate that Sacrament uncovered unto the people covered . I do not deny my suspition of the Spirit of these men , who are not affraid in so short a time , to vent such a multitude of strange novelties . But the clearest memento which God hath given us to beware of the wayes of that Church , is , Their bitter and shameful contentions among themselves , which , if not stopped by the Churches dissolution , might long before this day have produced as foul effects as any of the former . A part of this story , and but a part of it , you may read in that unanswerable Book of Master Edwards , where at length , you will see how their new fancies brought them to so bitter publike contention , and irreconcileable strife , as made their people confesse their doubting of the truth of their way ( TT ) ; and their principal Doctor , Master Goodwin , to avow his inclination to desert their society , and leave their Church ( VV ) . The Testimonies . ( A ) Anatomy of Independency , pag. 24. That Independent Church at Roterdam , was formerly under Presbyterial Government , and conformable to the Dutch Churches , and had onely begun to decline in Master Peters his time . ( B ) Antap. p. 17. Master Bridge and Master Burrows were men judged conformable , till the yeer of Bishop Wrens visitation , and the sending down of his Injunctions to Norwich . ( C ) Ibid. Master Bridge fell suddenly into the Church-way , as the short space between his Suspension at Norwich and his being received into a Church at Roterdam , and thereupon , his first Letter to some of his old friends in Norwich will fully shew . ( D ) Anatom . pag. 23. They , all renounced their Ordination in England , and ordained one another in Holland ; first Master Bridges ordained Master Ward , and then immediately Master Ward ordained Master Bridges . ( E ) Antap. pag. 142. Master Simpson after some time of beholding the order and way of the Church at Roterdam , desired to be admitted a Member , and was upon his Confession received in . ( F ) Ibid. Master Simpson stood for the Ordinance of prophecying , and that the people on the Lords day should have liberty after the Sermon to put doubts and questions to the Ministers . Mr. Bridge opposed : Yet he yeelded so far , that the Church should meet on a week day , and then they should have that liberty ; but this would not satisfie Master Simpson ; whereupon the difference increased , and Master Simpson would abide no longer , but quitted that Church : and with the help of a woman , whom Master Bridge called the Foundresse of Master Simpsons Church , set up a Church against a Church . ( G ) Mistresse Bridge laid these bitter differences and reports so to heart , that they were a great means of her death . ( H ) Ibid. Whether Master Bridges weaknesse and distempers were not occasioned by the divisions and wicked scandals raised upon him , as well as by the Air of Roterdam , himself knows best . Ibid. p. 143. Vpon Master Simpsons renting from the Church , and setting up a Church against a Church , under Mr. Bridges nose ; and upon wicked reports raised about Master Bridges , there grew that bitternesse , evil speakings , and deep censurings , deadly feuds amongst these Ministers and their Churches , as never was more betwixt the Jews and the Samaritans . Master Bridge confessed to me , there were not such sharp tongues , nor bitter divisions as these . Anatom . p. 6. Of these reproachings Master Bridges hath found notable experience at Roterdam , to the tyring out of his spirit amongst them there , in so much as he hath been often heard to affirm , That if he had known at first what he met with afterward , he would never have come amongst them , nor being amongst them , have given them such liberty as he had . ( I ) Antap. p. 35. Master Ward , Master Bridges colleague and old friend at Norwich , was deposed from his Ministery , and Office by Master Bridges Church , for frivolous matters . ( K ) Antap. p. 184. I much wonder how you can call the meeting of Master Goodwin and Master Nye , with two Gentlemen more , calling Master Bridge with the rest of that Church supposed to be Delinquents , such a solemn Assembly . ( L ) Apol. Naration , p. 20. The Ministers of the Church offended , with other two Gentlemen of much worth , Members thereof , were sent as Messengers from that Church , and at the introduction , and entrance of that solemn Assembly ; the solemnity of which , hath left as deep an impression upon our hearts of Christs dreadful presence , as ever any we have been present at . ( M ) Antap. p. 141. I desire to know whether Master Ward after he was restored , did , as formerly , officiate in that Church , and how long ; and whether Master Bridge and he continued as fellow●Ministers ; and whether between them two , and between the Church and Master Ward , there was that mutual carriage that ought to be between fellow-Ministers , and Ministers and People . ( N ) Anatom . pag. 49. The way of Vnion of th●se Churches could never be found till the Magistrates Authority and Command found it . ( O ) Anato . p. 6. These two Churches being of late commanded by the Magistrates of Roterdam to unite again in one , and that Church whereof Master Simpson was Minister , being unwilling to joyn to the other , unlesse some Members thereof should be cut off first , especially one ; and the Church whereof that party was a Member , being willing to gratifie the other in this , and yet professing and attesting as an act of the whole Church by writing , That all the time he had been a Member , his conversation had been without offence : Yet their Teacher was forced as himself confessed with grief of heart , having nothing to except against the person , to urge him to take his dismission from the Church . ( P ) Ibid. Adde hereunto the defection of some of their Members to Anabaptism ▪ and how apt others of them are to be made a prey therein , more then the Members of other Reformed Churches , as late instance hath manifested , some having professed Master Simpsons principles have made them Anabaptists . ( Q ) Anatom . p. 24. They cannot shew us such a fraternity between them and any Reformed Church , as I am ( and I beleeve truely ) informed , Master Simpsons Church ( whether by him or after his time by Master ●imons , I have not enquired ) entered into with th●se of the ●eparation at Amsterdam , by a mutual covenant and agreement to own each other . I beleeve it to be by vertue of that Covenant , that some of their Members , not Officers of the Church , do publikely Preach in Master Canns Pulpit at Amsterdam . ( R ) Antap. p. 51. I can tell you how some of you who have not Churches here in London , go to separate Churches to partake of the Lords Supper . Ibid. p. 56. Instance hath been given me particularly by a great friend of yours now in London ; that when some of you have come to Amsterdam , you never would go to Master Herrings , a good old Nonconformist , but you have gone to Master Cann the Separatist , and to his Church . Ibid. For their going to the Brownists , and conversing with Master Cann more then us , that is undeniable . ( S ) Apol. Narration , p. 5. Whose sincerity in their way hath been testified before the world , and will be unto Generations to come , by the greatest undertaking but that of our Father Abraham out of his own Countrey , and his Seed after him . ( T ) Vide supra . L. ( V ) Apol. Nar. p. 3. In this inquiry we looked upon the Word of Christ as impartially and unprejudicedly , as men made of flesh and blood are like to do in any juncture of time that may fall out . ( X ) Ibid. p. 22. We lost some friends and companions , our fellow-Labourers in the Gospel , as precious men as this Earth bears any . ( Y ) Apol. Nar. p. 22. When it pleased God to bring us his poor exiles back again . Ibid. p. 23. Which was as great an affliction to us as our former troubles and banishment . Ibid. p. 31. Consider us as these who for many yeers suffered even to exile . ( Z ) Antapol . p. 26. How dare you affirm that for your consciences you were deprived at once of what ever was deer to you ? were not your Wives , Children , Estates , Friends , and Lives dear to you ? had you not all these with you , and did you not in the Netherlands live in the best places , in much plenty , ease , and pomp ? what great deprivation is this of what ever is dear , for men to take their own times , and to go in Summer , with Knights , Ladies , and Gentlewomen , with all necessaries , into Holland , and there to take choice of all the Land , and with Wives , Children , Friends , and Acquaintance , free from the fears and possibilities of vexation from the Spiritual Courts and Prisons , to enjoy all plenty and freedom as you did ? many would have been glad , and still would be , to be so exiled into Holland , and to be able to spend there two or three hundred pounds per annum . ( AA ) Cottons 6. Vial , pag. 9. I dare not take up such carnal imaginations , as that Christ shall come bodily , and reign here upon Earth . ( BB ) Glimpse of Sions glory , p. 33. If God have such an intention to glorifie his Church , and that in this world , what manner of persons ought yee to be , because ye are beginning this despised work , gathering a Church together , which way God will honour ? certainly , the Communion of Saints , and Independency of Congregations , God will honour . ( CC ) Daniel 12.11 . From the time that the daily Sacrifice shall be taken away , there shall be 1290. dayes ; what is the meaning of this ? A day is usually taken for a yeer . This abomination of desolation was in Julians time in the 360. yeer ; now reckon so many yeers according to the number of the dayes , it comes to 1650. and it is like to be it , as any that can be named . But it is said , Blessed is he that comes to the 1335. dayes , that is , fourty five yeers more added ; it shall begin in the 1650. but it comes not to full head till fourty five yeers more . ( DD ) Ibid. In the Epistle , take this rule , That all Texts of Scripture are to be understood literally , except they make against other Scriptures , or except the very coherence of the Scripture shew it otherwise . Ibid. p. 17. Indeed , if we be put upon allegorical senses , we may put off any Scripture ; but if we take them literally , why should we not ? Ibid. p. 21. Christ is described in the 19. of the Revelation , with his Garments dyed in blood , when he doth appear to come and to take the Kingdom ; when he appears with many Crowns upon his head , that notes his many victories . Ibid. p. 17. The promise that is made Revel . 12. He shall rule them with a Rod of Iron , and as the Vessels of a Potter they shall be broken to shivers : What shall we make of this ? ( EE ) Ibid. p. 14 , 15. The raigning with Christ 1000. yeers , is not meant of raigning with him in Heaven , but it must be meant of Jesus Christs coming and raigning here gloriously for 1000 ▪ yeers . ( FF ) Ibid. p. 17. What shall we make of this , except there be a glorious raign of Christ with the Saints ? Christ is said to make them Kings , so as to have power and dominion in the world . ( GG ) Ibid. p. 13. There is no reason why that of the 26. of Matth. v. 29 . I will drink it new with you in my Fathers Kingdom , may not be taken litterally . ( HH ) Archers personal raign , p. 5. I call this last state of his , Monarchical , because he will govern as earthly Monarchs have done , that is , universally over the world in these dayes , known , and esteemed ; and in a worldly , visible , earthly glory , not by tyranny , oppression , and sensually , but with honour , peace , riches , and whatsoever in and of the world , is not sinful , having all Nations and Kingdoms doing homage to him , as the great Monarchs of the World had . ( II ) Burrows upon Hosea , p. 145. These are the new Heavens and the new Earth that are to be created ; and this is meant of the Church plainly : For the Text , Verse 12. speaks of building houses , and inhabiting them , and of planting Vineyards , and eating the fruit of them upon these new Heavens , and this new Earths Creation . Ibid. p. 191. And literally we are to understand many Scriptures that tend this way concerning the fruitfulnesse of the Earth , and the outward external glory , that then shall be in the Creatures . ( KK ) Archers comfort for beleevers , p. 41. God may as truely and easily , have a will and hand in , and be the Author of sins , as of afflictions . Ibid. We may safely say , that God is , and hath an hand in , and is the Author of the sinfulnesse of his people . ( LL ) Ibid. p. 36. The fear of some of these inconveniences , hath made Divines not to acknowledge so much of God in sin , as is in sin : They have erred on the other hand , and made sin more of the Creature and it self and lesse from God then it is : They grant that God is willing sin should be , and that he permits it , and orders circumstances about its production , and hath an hand in , and is the Author of the Physical or Moral act , in , and with which sin is ; but the essence of sin , that is , the Pravity and Ataxy , the Anomy and Irregularity of the act , which is the sinfulnesse of it , God hath no hand , neither is he any Author at all thereof . This opinion goes wrong another way , and gives not to God enough in sin . Let us imbrace and professe the truth , and not fear to say that of God , which he in his holy Book saith of himself , namely , That of him and from his hand , is not onely the thing that is sinful , but the pravity and sinfulnesse of it . ( MM ) A short Declaration of the Assembly , by way of Detestation of the abominable and blasphemous opinion . The Order of the House of Lords runs thus , Complaint being this day made to the Lords in Parliament , by the Assembly of Divines , that a certain blasphemous and heretical Book , intituled , Comfort for Beleevers , is printed and published , being written by John Archer ; their Lordships much abhorring the said blasphemies , do award and adjudge , that the said Book shall be burnt by the hand of the common Hangman . ( NN ) Doctor Stewarts Duply to M. S. second part , pag. 128. Not long since I heard one of the Ringleaders of the Independents Sect deliver this doctrine in a Sermon at the Abbey of Westminster . viz. That to a saving knowledge of God , it sufficeth not to know him in the Book of nature ; or secondly , as revealed in the holy Scriptures ; but that we must also know him as abstract from his mercy and all his attributes . ( OO ) Ibid. If I know God abstracted from his mercy , I know him out of Christ , and out of the Gospel ; for God in Christ and in the Gospel , is not abstract , but concrete with mercy . If God be considered as abstract from all his attributes , it is no more a knowledge of God , but some idol of the Independent brains . ( PP ) Antap. p. 36. Master Good win did anoint a Gentlewoman ( whose name I conceal ) when she was sick , and she recovered after it , say they . ( QQ ) Ibid. Anointing the sick with Oyl , was held in that Church of Arnhem as a standing Ordinance for Church-Members , as laying on of hands was a standing Ordinance for Church-Officers . ( RR ) Ibid. p. 60. I propound it to you , whether a little before your coming over into England , some Members of the Church of Arnhem , did not propone the Holy Kisse , or the Kisse of Love to be practised by Church-Members ? Nay , Whether by some persons in that Church was it not begun to be practised ? ( SS 1. ) Ibid. p. 36. A Gentleman of note in that Church did propone in the Church , that singing of Hymns was an Ordinance ; which is , that any person of the Congregation exercising their own gifts , should bring an Hymn and sing it to the Congregation , all the rest being silent , and giving audience . ( SS 2. ) Antap. p. 262. Some of Arnhem hold strange conceits : Daily the Independent Churches like Affrica , do breed and bring forth the Monsters of Anabaptism , Antinomianism , Familism , nay , That huge Monster and old fleeing Serpent of the Mortality of the soul of man. ( SS 3. ) Ibid. p. 261. I have been told of some odde things preached by one of you five , both in England and Holland , and of some points Preached in the Church of Arnhem , never questioned there and since Printed not very Orthodox ; as for instance among others , That the souls of the Saints do not go to Heaven to be with Christ . ( SS 4. ) Archers personal raign , p. 23. This Objection supposes the souls of the dead Saints to be in the highest Heavens , which is not so : It is likely the souls of the dead Saints are not in the highest Heavens , but in a middle place , which is meant in the New Testament by paradise ; into this paradise went Christs soul , and the theifs , which was not Heaven . It s most probable that Christs soul never went into the highest Heavens , till his Body went also . Ibid. None but Christ , and so none before Christ , ever entered the highest Heavens . The way to Heaven was never opened till Christ the high Priest entered Body and Soul into it . The highest Heavens never had but one man into them , namely Christ , nor shall have till the worlds end . Ibid. p. 25. If you ask where this place of Paradise is : I answer , It must be below the highest Heavens ; therefore , surely it is in the Region or Element of fire , where the Sun and Stars are , or in the highest Region of the Ayr. ( SS 5. ) Archers personal raign , p. 35. At the day of judgement the wicked shall be sent with the Devil unto Hell , which Hell shall not be that which is now called Hell , but another ; for the Hell that now is , is but a prison , and not the place of execution : At the last day this Hell that now is , shall cease . This Hell which is at present , to be sure is in some of the places of the Air , or the Waters , and not in the Earth : But the Hell which shall be the everlasting torment of all the damned , shall be all this lower and visible World. All the places of the Earth , Water , Air , Sun , Moon , Stars , and the Fire , called the Heavens , and the Earth . The things which God immediately made out of nothing , shall never change : As the highest Heavens , and the Angels in them , and the souls of men , and this Chaos called the Earth ; but all other things being made out of something , even out of this Earth or Chaos , they shall after a time change ; and so all this World shall come to an Earth or Chaos again . God in time did make two places , Heaven and Earth , immediately out of nothing , to be eternal places , the one of Joy , the other of Torment . Thus you see when Hell was made but it was quickly covered , and shall not be uncovered ; till Christ do it at the last day . ( TT ) Antap. p. 36. The Gentleman censured , brings an accusation against Master Nye , charging him with Pride , want of Charity , &c. And this being brought before the Church , continued in debate about half a yeer , three or four days in a week , and sometimes more , before all the Congregation ; divers of the Members having callings to follow , they desired leave to be absent . Master Goodwin oft professed publikely upon these differences , If this were their Church-fellowship , he would lay down his Eldership ; and nothing was more commonly spoke among the Members , then that certainly for matter of Discipline , they were not in the right way , for that there was no way to bring things to an end . ( VV ) Vide supra . TT . CHAP. V. The Carriage of the Independents at London . YOu have gotten a taste of the Fruits of this Tree , as it grows in New-England and Holland : When it is transplanted to Old-England , consider if the Grapes of it be any thing sweeter . These Five last yeers , the chief of that party , both from Arnhem , Roterdam and New-England , have kept their residence at London , to advance , by common counsels and industry , their Way , in these days of their hopes . A full account of their courses in that place cannot be expected , so long as many passages concerning them lie in the dark , and the end is not yet come . But three things seem to be clear , which make their Way at London no more lovely then in the places mentioned . First , they have been here exceeding unhappie in retarding , and to their power crossing the blessed Reformation in hand . Secondly , they have pregnantly occasioned the multiplication of Heresies and Schisms , above all that ever was heard of in any one place in any former Age. Thirdly , they have occasioned such Divisions in the State , that , had it not been for the extraordinary mercies of God , the Parliament and all that follow them , had long ago been laid under the feet of their enraged enemies , and the whole Isle , long before this , totally ruined . As for the first , The Reformation of Religion , so much wished for by all the godly for so many yeers , all know it could never have been attained without the help of an Assembly of Divines : Who opposeth the necessary Mean , cannot be taken for a friend of the End. The Assembly , the necessary means of Reformation , was for a very long time hindred , by the diligence of the Independent party , to be called ( A ) : and when , to their evident grief and discontent , the Parliament had voted its calling , they may remember their extraordinary industry to get ▪ it modelled according to their Principles , both in its members and power ( B ) ; to have it an elective Synod onely for advice , to consist of so many of themselves and of their favourers as was possible , not any known Divine of any parts in all England of their opinion , being omitted . How cautious they were by great slight of hand to keep off so many of the old Puritan Unconformists , and how much more enclinable towards men of Episcopal and Liturgick principles , themselves do know . This their underhand-working before the sitting of the Assembly , was seen but by few : but so soon as the Synod did sit , it did then appear to the whole Company who were the men who made it their work and greatest studie to keep off , by their endlesse Janglings , the Assembly from concluding any thing that might settle the distracted Church ( C ) ; so that to this day , after two yeers time and above , in more frequent and learned Sessions then every we read of in any Assembly since the world began ( D ) , There is nothing at all set up for the comfort of the afflicted Kingdom . Their aversenesse to the Assembly doth appear , not onely in their opposition to its calling , in their retarding of its proceedings , but in their pressing of its dissolution . I do not speak of the huge Contumelies which some of their party have poured out upon the face of that most Reverend Meeting , in a number of very wicked Pamphlets , which to this day were never so much as censured , though the Authors , by name and sirname , are complained of in Print . But that which I speak of , is the expresse Article of the Independent Petition , desiring the Parliament in formal terms , according to Master Peters dictates , to dissolve the Assembly ( D 2. ) . Had either the Popish faction , or the Episcopal party , or the malignant Courtiers procured the continuance of our woful Anarchie , our anger would have been greater then our grief or shame . But when the mercies of God now for some yeers have removed the Papists , Prelats and Courtiers so far from us , that by word or deed they have not hindred us in the least measure to heal the diseases of our Church at our pleasure ; that her wounds to this day should be multiplied , and all kept open to drop out her best blood , alone through the obstinacy of our Brethren , though we compresse our indignation , yet we cannot but be oppressed with a great measure of grief , nor can we chuse but to be covered with confusion and shame , when we are forced to taste the most bitter fruits of our Brethrens principles , though denied by them in words , yet ingenuously avowed by their friends in Amsterdam , and constantly practised in New-England ; to the uttermost of their power ( E 1. ) , they must oppose the building of a Church any where in the world , if it be not after their patern : That as in New-England no Presbyterial Church on any condition may be tolerated , so in Old-England no Presbyterial Church must ever be erected , if all their skill and industry can hinder it . Such a Reformation , though expresly according to the National Covenant , to them is a deformation which they cannot wish , much lesse pray for or endeavour , but with all their strength must crosse it , as a corruption unsufferable , where they have power . It s plain and demonstrable , that their Principles and Way have forced them to oppose the Reformation in hand , and will ever force them so to do , till they lay new grounds , and be changed in the sence of their erroneous minde . However , the actions of our Brethren did proclame loud enough their intentions to delay so long as they were able , the setting up of any Government ; yet when this evil is become so grosse and palpable , that all in words do disclaim it , and they who most do procure it , do most in shew abominate it , it seems a little strange that some of their Divines are now begun in Print expresly to own it , and in Print to perswade the delay of this work ( E 2. ) . It must be a heavie guiltinesse to be a powerful instrument of keeping two so great Kingdoms as England and Ireland without the Fold and Hedge of all Ecclesiastike Discipline for divers yeers together , especially in the time of a devouring War. How many thousand souls have perished by this means in their ignorance and profanesse , who in a wel-governed Church might have been reclaimed ? Unto this great misery , another great unhappinesse addeth much weight . Beside their marring of the begun-Reformation , they have occasioned the perishing of some millions of poor souls , by the unheard-of multiplication of Heresies and Schisms ( F ) . I believe no place in the world , for this mischief , is now parallel to London . Amsterdam long ago is justified ; that City hath transmitted hither the infamy of her various Sects . Now upon whom shall this blame be fastne● 〈◊〉 ? It is well known that the Sects , at the time of the Independents return hither , were inconsiderable , in regard of that which now they are by their means . It was their work to bring people into distaste with the way of all the Reformed Churches : this by their labours was made vile in the eyes of the multitude ; and people once having leaped over that wall within the which all the Protestant Churches have dwelt in safety , by all the skill of their first misleaders could not be holden from running farther away ; as in New-England Independency was a mother to Anabaptism , Antinomianism , Familism , and many more Heresies , We need not wonder to see it any where bring forth the like Brood : But hereof indeed do we wonder , that in so short a time this Way should change as it were its nature so farre to the worse . In Holland and New-England , Independency , so soon as it had found and discerned the young brats of Anabaptists , Antinomians or Familists in her bosom , it was her custom incontinently to fling them away as Bastards : But Independency at London hath learned not onely to beget , but to cherish such children when they are brought forth . Not onely the Churches of New-England , but the very Amsterdam-Brownists have ever been zealous to cast out of their Society the Heretikes and Schismatickes we speak of : but here in London it is far otherwise . We have heard that many of the Independents here , so soon as they have fallen into Anabaptism or other Errours of the time , have quickly of their own accord run away and separated from the Independent Congregations , as polluted , as false , as no Churches : But that ever any of the London-Independents did cast out of their Churches any man or woman for Anabaptism , Antinomianism or any other Errour , we never heard . By the contrary , Independency here is become an uniting Principle ; it hath kept our Brethren in the midst of all their bitter Jarrs with the Reformed Churches abroad , and the Presbyterians at home , in a great entirenesse and familiarity with all the Sectaries that pleased to draw neer them . They have by their debates and dissents laboured to hinder the Assembly from giving the least advice to the Parliament to take any order with the most absurd of the Sectaries , when complained upon for their greatest Enormities ; yea , they have preached and printed divers Tractates for a full liberty to all Sects ( G ) . That so soon they should have run thus far out , we could never have believed , if our own eyes and ears had not been our perswaders . As for the third Apple we observed on their Tree , The endangering of the State , it is no lesse visible then any of the former . If there were no more but the keeping of the Church-wounds so long open , the health , yea the life of the State might justly be feared , from this ground alone , by all who know the sympathy of these Twins , and the inseparable interest of these two much-united Companions . But beside the keeping of the Church unsetled , the growth of Schisms , how pregnant a cause it is of a States ruine , we need no other witnesse then the declaration of their Brethren in New-England ( H ) . We are made here to believe , that the Anabaptists and the Antinomians are so tame and harmlesse creatures , that there is no danger of any violence from their innocent hands . If it be so , the General Court at New-Boston hath been extremely unjust , who professed their wel-grounded apprehension of a total subversion not onely of all their Churches , but of their Civil State also , from a far lesse number of these Sectaries then are here among us ; and avowed to the world their necessity to banish out of that Countrey the leaders of that dangerous Faction , whether men or women , whether Church or States-men , and to disarm many of their followers , upon much much smaller provocations and lighter grounds of suspition then by the words and deeds of their kinsfolks have been offered lately unto this State. ( I ) What more might be said of the London-Independents practices upon the State , readily may come to the world ere long by a much better Pen. I for causes at this time abstain totally from writing on this subject . The Testimonies . ( A ) Antap. p. 51. I believe upon good grounds , and so do many more , you never took any great content or joy in the thoughts of the Assembly , but have done your utmost to delay it and to put it by . God knows your hearts , and men some of your speeches about the meeting of this Assembly : But seeing it could not be helped , and that you could not keep it off by all your friends , &c. ( B ) Antap. p. 255 When an Assembly was first agreed upon , there were not many more Ministers and Scholars of your way in the Kingdom who were capable of such a Service , then you got in to be Members of the Assembly ; so that you had as much advantage as your condition was capable of , yea , and favour too . See the Orders of the Assembly , which give no power at all of Jurisdiction to the few selected Divines , but alone a power of advice . ( C ) Antap. p. 269. I am confident had it not been for you five , and a few more , the Reformation intended had been in a far fairer way then now it is . Brethren , there are many complaints , and that by your dear friends , of the retarding the Work of Reformation by your means . You are the Remora to the Ship under Sails , you are the Spoaks in the Wheels of the Chariot of Reformation . Parliament complains , Assembly , City , Countrey , all complain of the Work retarded , and all is resolved into you five principally . I could tell you many particular passages , but you know what I mean. In a word , all the Prelates and the Papists cannot , nor do not hinder so much the Work of Reformation , as you five Members of the Assembly . ( D 1. ) The Scribes Books carry already above 500. Sessions . ( D 2. ) Prynnes fresh Discovery , p. 17. They lately conspired together to exhibite a Petition to the Parliament for present dissolving the Assembly , and sending them home to Countrey cures , to prevent the setling of any Church Government , to which end they met at the Winde-Mill Tavern , where John Lillburn sat in the Chair , and Master Hugh Peters suggested the advice , which was accordingly inserted in the Petition . ( E 1. ) Answer to 32. Quest . p. 83. If that Discipline which we here practise , be the same which Christ hath appointed , and therefore unalterable : We see not how another can be lawful . So if a company of people shall come hither , and set up another , we cannot promise to approve of them in so doing . ( E 2. ) Burtons Vindication , p. 2. If the better heed be not taken , there may be more haste to a Reformation then good speed ; A Reformation therefore will necessarily require longer time yet , that we may not go blindfold about it . See also Saltmarsh his Queres . ( F ) Bastwicks second part of Independency ▪ Postscript , p 37. Before the Independents Apparition in our Horison , there were but three or four Sects known among us , and they were few in number , and well conditioned ; but out of the Independents Lungs are sprung above fourty several sorts of stra●lers , which before their coming over were never heard of among us . John Lillburn related it unto me , and that in the presence of others , that returning from the wars to London , he met fourty new Sects , and many of them dangerous ones , and some so pernicious , that howsoever , as he said , he was in his judgement for Toleration of all Religions , yet he professed he could scarce keep his hands off them , so blasphemous they were in their opinions ; So that he gathered that these were now the last days , wherein so many Heresies abounded : There are innumerable diabolical Sects , and so prodigiously impious , that it is not for a Christian to name their opinions ; and most of them , if not all , were first Independents , and such as separated from our Congregations as unholy , and were of their new gathered Churches , and followers of their Ministery . ( G ) A short Answer to Adam Stewarts second part , supposed to be written by John Goodwin , p. 32. and 36. Is it not an ungodly thing to suffer men to be of any Religion ? Answer . No , For both our Saviour and the Apostles , and the primitive Christians did the same : Ought we not at least to keep our different Opinions , and Religion unto our selves , in obedience to the Civil Magistrate that commands it ▪ Answer . No , Because its better to obey God then man ; but if Jesuited Papists , and other subtill Hereticks be suffered ; will they not seduce many unto their erroneous By-paths ? Answer . Though a Toleration of erroneous Opinions may gain some to Satan , yet Truth being therewith to be published and approved , will in all probability , not onely gain so many more to God ; but any one thus wonn to the Truth , is worth thousands of these that fall from it . ( H ) Cottons Model of Church and Civil power related in the Bloody Tenent , p. 120. The falls of Common-wealths are known to arise from their diminishing the power of the Church , and the flourishing of Common-wealths is observed to arise from the vigilant administration of the holy Discipline of the Church . ( I ) Master Prynnes fresh discovery in the Epistle . Their Libels , actions , speeches , proclaim a plotted , avowed confederacy among some furious Ringleaders of these Independent Sectaries ▪ against the Parliament , Assembly , and all their resolves in matters of Religion . That which confirms me in this opinion , is , first the new seditious Covenants which the Members of some Independent Congregations enter into , to adhere , defend , maintain , to the uttermost of their power , and contend for even to blood , the establishment of that Independent Form of Church Government which themselves have set up , and to oppose the Presbyterian . Bastwicks second part , p. 28. This that I now say , I speak upon very good ground ; among these they think they may confide in , they affirm they will not be beholding to the Parliament , nor any body else for their liberty ; for they will have it , and ask them no leave . They have the Sword now in their hand , and they think their party strong enough to encounter any adverse party : And they professe they care not how soon they come to cutting of throats , and speak of nothing but the slaughtering and butchering of the Presbyterians : And therefore there is just cause given us to think we may expect better quarters from the very enemies , then from the Independents , who call us in their Pulpits Brethren , but in their hearts hate us . Ibid. Postscript , p 6. The Presbyterian Government not suiting with their humour , they abhor it , and all such as endeavour to establish it ; and wish rather that all the old Trumpery were brought in again ; and professe , they had rather have the Government of the Prelates : Yea , some of them have not been ashamed to protest unto Prelatical Priests , That before the Presbyters shall rule over them , they will cut all their throats , and joyn with them for the reestablishing of the Hierarchy . Ibid. p. 30. Professing , that all such Preachers who Preach and write the least thing in opposition to their Opinions , ought to be hanged : And had they the power in their hands , they would trusse them up , as many can testifie . Ibid. p. 45. They boast of such a party in the Kingdom , if their own words may be credited , as they now think by the Sword to be able to make their own Laws ; and have been frequently heard say , That they had many Abbettours in the Assembly and both Houses of Parliament , and in many parts through the Kingdom , besides in all the Armies : And they were all resolved to have the Liberty of their Consciences , or else they would make use of their Swords , which they have already in their hands . Ibid. p. 68. I know not any Independent in England , except one man and his wife , that do not as maliciously and implacably hate the Presbyterians as the mortallest enemy they have in the world . CHAP. VI. An Enumeration of the common Tenets of the Independents . IT is not easie to set down with assurance the Independents positions , both because they have to this day declined to declare positively their minds ; as also because of their principle of mutability whereby they professe their readinesse to change any of their present Tenets . How unwilling they are to declare their mind , may appeare by their obstinate silence , and refusing to answer any of these Books that put them most to it ; also , by hiding of their opinions from their brethren , who most earnestly have prest their Declaration . These divers yeares the Ministers of London have been dealing with them for satisfaction herein , and once by importunity obtained a promise under their hand of a full and free Declaration , but these foure yeares they have eluded that promise ( a ) . Mr. Apollonius in name of all the Churches of Zealand with all earnestnesse did intreat this duty of them ( b ) , but all in vaine . When upon any occasion they have been moved to make any kind of Narration of their way , it was ever with an expresse proviso of their resolution to keep up as yet from the World their positive Tenets ; so they conclude their Apologetick ( c ) , so they begin their Keyes ( d ) . And now when the indignation both of the Assembly and Parliament , and of many more , was likely to break out upon them for this , that after so long time no plaine dealing hath been seen in them , at last they have engaged themselves to declare their minds ; and yet since that their publike engagement there are six Months past , and the Worlds expectation of understanding at last their mind , is still suspended . And though that their Declaration should come out to morrow , yet with what assurance can we take any thing therein for their constant and settled Tenet , so long as they professe it to be one of their cheife principles to be so loose and irresolute in any thing they maintaine for the time , that they are ready to leave it , and upon occasion to embrace the contrary ( e ) ? So long as this skeptick irresolution is avowed , there is no hope , there is no possibility of any fixed constancy . These things considered no man is able to set down their full mind , nor any one of their positions whereto any dare assure they will firmely stand ; only the chiefe of their singularities which they have been pleased to let come abroad , and have not to our knowledge as yet revoked , we shall set down as they come to our thoughts . It hath been hitherto their earnest desire to decline the infamy of Brownisme , and it was the charity of their Brethren to distinguish them from that Sect , under the new name of Independents : importing their chiefe difference from us to stand not in the point of separation , which is our proper quarrell with the Brownists , but alone in the point of Church-Government , which against all the Reformed Churches they ma●ntaine to be Independent , that is , not subject to the Authority and Jurisdiction of any Superiour Synod . This was thought to be their proper distinctive and characteristicall Tenet , till of late we finde them passionately reject the name of Independents , and tell us , that the dependency or independency of their Congregations will bee found one of their least differences and smallest controversies . In this our long mistake , we are content to be rectified ; albeit our charity should not be reproved ▪ who being ignorant of their willingnesse to differ from us in any thing higher or deeper then the Dependency of Congregations upon the Authority of Superiour Assemblies , did put upon them no other name then that which implyed this difference alone . It seemes that this Title is not only the most reasonable , but the most innocent and inoffensive note of distinction , which themselves could have chosen : The terme not being invented by any of their ill-willers , but by their own cheife Leaders ( f ) , who did think that word most proper to notifie their Tenet of Government ; and since some name must be given to every eminently differing party , it seemes none lesse irritative could bee fallen upon , then that which most properly did signifie the chiefe matter in Controversie . But now finding they avow their chiefe differences to lie elsewhere , for my part I could yeeld to them to have the name of Independents buried , did I not feare it behoved to be changed with another Title , which would much more displease : For since they are gone beyond the question of Independent Government , and now doe question the constitution of our Churches so farre as puts them on a necessity of Separation , and in this doe place the chiefe of their Controversies with us : If a Sect may be denominated either from the Author or principall matter , as they make no bones to Print us Calvinians ( g ) and Presbyterians ( h ) : I cannot conceive why they ought not to take it in good part , if when the name of Independents is laid by , they have in place of it , the Title of Brownists and Separatists fastned upon them . Of their owne accord they take upon them openly the halfe of the thing we alledge professing themselves to lie halfeway off us , towards Brownisme ( i ) avowing the truth to consist in this their middle way : But whosoever considers better of the matter , will find , that however in some things they incline to a middle way ; yet in the chiefe and most , they come up close to the outmost line of Brownisme , and in many things doe expatiate so much beyond it ▪ that in place of the Semi-Separation they mention , they may be justly argued to have drawn upon themselves the blot of Se●qui-Separation and more also : how true this is , it will appeare to any , who will be pleased to make a paralell of the forementioned Tenets of the Brownists with these of the Independents , which here are subjoyned . First , the worst and uttermost Tenet of the Brownists for which they cook to themselves , and had bestowed upon them by others the stile of Separatists , was their doctrine and practise accordingly , to Separate from the Churches of England : In this the Independents goe beyond them . For beside that the practice of both is the same , both actually Separating from all the Congregations of England ; the grounds of the Brownists Separation were a great deale more reasonable , then that of the Independents , albeit neither of them be good and sufficient : For the Brownists did build their Separation on the Tyranny of Bishops , on the Superstition of the Ceremonies and Service-Book ; on the grosse , avowed , and neglected profanenesse of the most in every Congregation : if these corruptions had been removed , so farre as I have read in any of their writings , they would no more have Separated . But the Independents having no such stumbling blocks in their way , Bishops and Books being abolished , and a barre set up in every Congregation to keep off from the Sacrament , every scandalous and ignorant person , notwithstanding they will yet Separate . The more unjust and lesse cause they have so to doe , their separation must bee so much the worse , the grosser and more inexcusable Schisme . What they say for the avoyding of this challenge , will not hold water ; while they tell us that they are not Separatists , because they avow the Church of England to be a true and gracious Church , That the Ministry of it , is true and saving . They should consider that the Brownists , when the fit of charity commeth upon them , say large as much as all this , as before from their own words we have shown ( k ) : also that some of the Independent Party have gone as farre as that which they confesse makes the Brownists to be justly called Schismaticks ( l ) ; but however , suppose their allegation were true , it doth not excuse and diminish , but much encrease the fault of their separation : For it is a greater sinne to depart from a Church which I professe to bee true , and whose Ministry I acknowledge to be saving , then from a Church which I conceive to be false , and whose Ministers I take to have no calling from God , nor any blessing from his hand . Neither are they cleared from the blot of Schisme by their countenancing the English Assemblies , by their preaching and praying therein : for beside that they doe no more in this then Mr Robinson hath taught them ( m ) ; They should remember they teach their Schollars , that Preaching , Prayer , Psalmes , and all things they doe in the English Congregation , are no acts of Church Fellowship ( n ) : that none of them doth import any Church Membership , nor any Ecclesiastick Communion : but are such which without scruple they can dispence to very Pagans . But we would intreat them to declare if they would be willing to receive any Sacrament in the English Congregations , or if they will be content to bee under any part of their Discipline , if they will be either Members or Officers in any of our Churches . I see indeed the Apologists professe their participation of Baptisme in our Congregations , but besides that , the Brownists will professe so much of themselves ( o ) ; yet how this is consistent with the constant practice and Doctrine of the Independents , I confesse my understanding is too blunt to conceive . For however in New-England , they give the right hand of Fellowship to the Brownists Congregations ( p ) ; and at London they are said to goe to the Brownists Sacraments ( q ) : and we did never heare that either in England or Holland , they refused any to be a Member for their beliefe of rigid separation , or Anabaptisme ; nor censured any of their Members for falling into these errours : yet in formall termes , they doe deny the most gracious of their Brethren to live beside them in New-England in the Presbyteriall way of the old Non-conformists ( r ) : yea , in Print they avow that whoever refuseth their Tenet of Independency , were they otherwise never so Orthodox and pious , they ought not to be admitted to the Sacraments , nor enjoy any Church Priviledge ( s ) : as people who cannot be wholly , but at most are in part only converted : Yea , as such who must be taken for Anti-christian spirits , for enemies to Christ and his Kingdome ( t ) : Neither have I heard that any of them now for many yeares ▪ have either celebrated to others or received themselves the Sacraments in any English Church . And when it was propounded that they might take charge in some of the best Reformed Congregations of England ; with a full assurance of a personall dispensation to them for their whole life , if they would leave but that one intollerable Tenet of Separation ; to this day they have disregarded that kind and brotherly Accommodation ; shewing expresly that in this point of separate Congregations they would be tolerated , or nothing else would satisfie their consciences ; beyond this their best friends were not able by their long and earnest endeavours for divers weeks together to draw them one haires-breadth ( w ) : if this be not a more cleare and a more inexcusable Separation then was ever yet laid to the charge of any Brownists , I professe my utter mistake of the nature of Schisme , and desire to be rectified . The next singularity of the Brownists , their Doctrine of the constitution of the Church in matter and forme , the Independents have borrowed to the full : and not only enlarged it , but when all other grounds faile , upon this alone they build the necessity of their separation . Concerning the matter of the Church , the Independents have learned all their unjust scrupulosity from the other ; as the Brownists require every Church member to be a Saint , really regenerate and justified , who at their admission have publikely satisfied the whole Congregation by convincing signes of their true holinesse : the other requires the same ( x. ) What ever indulgence here the Independents professe to give , either to weak ones in whom they finde the least of Christ , or to women whom they remit from the Congregation to speak more privately in the Eldership ( y ● , this is no other then the present practise of the Brownists at Amsterdam . Only we observe , that the Independents here go farther from the Reformed Churches , both in the strictnesse , and in the loosnesse of their satisfactions . The Brownists are satisfied with the signes of personall grace , but the Independents require more ; they proceed to a triall by a long conversation of the sociable and complying disposition of the person to be admitted , with the spirits of the whole Church whereof he is to be a member ( z ) ; without this sutablenesse of spirit they will reject them whom otherwise they finde to be Saints ( aa ) . But their chiefe excesse here is in loosnesse . The Brownists will not dispence with known errours and sinnes in the members ; they will not admit of Anabaptists , of proud , luxurious , contentious people . If they finde any such to have crept in among them , they professe their judgement is for their casting out by censures But the Independents will here be more wise for the encrease of their party : and however they will have nothing to do with Presbyterians ( bb ) , nor with such people who can live in their confused Congregations ; yet they make it their rule to hold out none for any errour that is not fundamentall , nor for any sinne that is not continued in against conscience ( cc ) ; walking according to this rule , they swallow down without trouble the small gnats of Anabaptism , and all other Sects , who erre not fundamentally , and obstinately , and against conscience : how many Sectaries are thus farre guilty , who can determine ? The little spot of luxury in apparell , in diet , and many fleshly delights , of strife , of disdainfull railing , and such other faults ( as are too common in their members ) are of easy disgestion ( dd ) . Concerning the other part of the Church essence , its forme , their Covenant : in this the Disciples go much above their Master . Mr Cotton hath perfected by an expresse Treatise , this part of Brownism ( ee ) , as many others . The Covenants of New ●ngland are much straiter then any that ever we heard of at Amsterdam . It is true that of late both in Old and New England the Independents seem much to modify the rigour of their Covenant ( ff ) ; but whatever may be said of their profession , I never could learne of their practice , to admit any into their society who gave not full assurance of embracing their whole way , and all their differences from the Reformed Churches . Sure I am , they did never admit any upon easier tearms then lately I my self did hear Mr Can admit a member into his Church at Amsterdam ; yet if Mr Prynnes information be well grounded , they are become at London more rigid in their Covenant then ever ; he tells us that now it is their custome to make it a part of their Oath to oppugne the Government of the Reformed Churches , and to defend Independency with armes and violence , ff . 2. Unto the constitution we may referre the efficient of a Church , and the number of its members ; in both the Schollars follow punctually their Masters . As for the efficient , it is not only the Brownists , but the Independents also who put the power of gathering Churches , and joyning together by Covenant in a Church way , in the hand of private Christians alone , without any Officer , or the authority of any Magistrate . It is presumption in any Minister , if he assay to make up a Church , only people must associate themselves into a Church , and then create their Ministers and other Officers ( gg . ) In New England at the erection of a new Church , they are content with the presence both of the Magistrate and Ministers of the neighbour Churches ; but they declare that neither is necessary , and that the presence of either gives no authority to the action , and the absence of both detracts no authority from it ( hh . ) That the whole power to gather a Congregation and to erect a Church is alone in the covenanting persons ( ii . ) As for the number of the members , the Independents go as low as the Brownists , avowing that seven persons make a full ministeriall and compleatly organized Church ( kk ) : nor do they extend the number any farther then the Brownists , avowing that no Church , except the universall , may have any more members then conveniently can meet and be accommodated in one place for the exercise of all holy duties ( ll ) , not only preaching of the Word , whereat thousands may be present , but celebration of the Sacraments , and administring all parts of Discipline ; to which acts a few hundreds cannot commodiously meet . The Independents minde about the gathering and erecting of Congregations , may be clearly perceived by their late practice in the Sommer Islands , wherein they are applauded by the Churches of New England , and defended by Master White against Master Prynnes Fresh Discovery , with a great deale of confidence and high language : there hee justifies the necessity of the dissolution of all the Churches in the Barmudaes ( which yet he professes were among the best of all the English Plantations ; ) there were above 3000 people in the Isle , who had lived without all controversie with any of their Ministers from their first planting till the yeare 1641 , when their Ministers perswaded by some writs of the Brethren of New England , found it necessary to lay down their charges , and become meere private men , denying to administer to their old flocks any Ordinance , till three of them entring in a Covenant , and thereby becomming a new Church , did perswade of the 3000 Islanders some thirty or forty at most to joyn with them in their new Church Covenant ; these covenanted persons did chuse one of their old Ministers for their Pastor , and two others of them for Ruling Elders , who as gifted men were content to joyne with the Pastor in preaching , not only to the Church members , but to the whole Isle , to fit them to be Church members ; but all the three refused absolutely to celebrate any Sacrament , or administer any Discipline , or do any act of a Pastor to any but to the forty named only . All this Mr White maintains as just and necessary , and petitions the Parliament in print for their countenance and approbation , whereby it seems it is the Independents avowed and cleare intention when they have power to dissolve and annull all the Churches of England , yea of the world , to spoile all Ministers living of their pastorall charge , and all people of all Church priviledges , and to erect new Churches of their own framing , into which they are to admit at most not one of an hundred of those who now do count themselves Christians : all this you may see at length in Mr Whites very peremptory Reply to Mr Prynnes Fresh Discovery . Leaving the constitution , their chiefe Tenets concerne the power of the Congregation , so constitute as is said : in this they come up fully to their Masters side ; for they give unto their Church , that is , their seven covenanted persons , the whole Ecclesiastick power , and that independently upon any person under heaven . First , they put it in their hands to create all the Officers ; they not only give them suffrages in their election , ( mm ) but the whole power of Ordination also ( nn ) , the examination of their Pastor in all the abilities requisite for his charge ( oo ) , the laying all the parts of his Office upon him , publique prayer , imposition of hands , and what other acts are requisite for a regular Ordination , are all performed by one of the people whom the rest have appointed for that end ( pp ) . As they have power to make all their Officers , so they have power to unmake them , to depose , and excommunicate all their Ministers ( qq ) , to cognosce and finally to determine , without any appeal , in all cases , both in life and doctrine , of all Heresies and Scismes , of all Truths and Errours , to order all things belonging to the worship of God , and to do all things else ( rr ) , which other Churches ascribe to the most Generall Assemblies of the most learned Divines . Upon this passage of Power come in the differences which divided the Brownists among themselves : whilst Iohnson would give all these acts of power to the Eldership , and Ainsworth would keep them for the Congregation ; these same questions vex the Independents to this day , and are likely to divide the Children as they did the Fathers . The most of the New English Divines , with Ainsworth , attribute the whole Ecclesiastick power to the body of the people : unto the Eldership they give the preparation of affaires ( ss ) , but the judgement and determination of all doth passe by the plurality of the peoples voices ( tt ) : the power of the keyes they put in the hand not of the Presbytery , but of the fraternity ( ww ) , as they speak . And in some places upon the peoples sense of the Presbyteries encroaching and feare of their farther usurpation , they have thought it expedient to have no Eldership at all , as in Amsterdam the Brownists , so in Rotterdam the Independents , for these many yeares have had no ruling Elders , and so no Presbytery ( xx ) ; but have governed all their affaires by the voices of the people : and why might they not as well live without ruling Elders , as their Brethren at Arnem for divers yeares did live without a Pastor ( yy ) the more necessary Officer . Mr Cotton and some others feeling to their small contentment the great and intolerable power of the people over the Eldership have begun to fall from Ainsworth to Iohnson , and to plead the Authority of the Eldership above the Brotherhood , and the necessity of their subjection by divine right to the Elders as to their Superiours ( zz ) ; yet to salve all , and to please both parties , he maketh the concurrence of the Eldership and Brotherhood to be both necessary , to be both sine quo non ( aaa ) : whatever Authority he gives to the Eldership , he maketh it all vaine and frustaneous without the consent of the people ( bbb ) : and notwithstanding all the obedience and subjection he putteth upon the people , yet he giveth to them such a power of Liberty , that their concurrence with the Eldership in every act of power is not only necessary but authoritative ( ccc ) . He goeth yet one step further in case of the obstinate and incorrigible aberration of the Presbytery ; he gives power to the people , albeit not to execute any act of power , yet to separate from the obstinate Eldership ( ddd ) , and out of their own number to make new Elders , who will be willing to administer cen●ures , and do all else that they conceive to be right . For all this , so farre as we can learne , there is yet no full agreement among them , either in New or Old England , in setting the merch-stones of power betwixt the Eldership and Brotherhood : many Schoole distinctions they use , yet by them all they cannot come to concord . The Independents here confesse their agreement with Mr Cotton in the chiefe things wherein he differs from his Brethren in New England , and from his owne selfe in his late Book of the way of the Churches : they applaud much his new invented distinction of the power of Authority , and the power of Liberty ( eee ) . Yet in other things they avow their dissent from him ( fff ) : what these other things may be , they yet have not had leisure to informe us . I hope it be not the extent of Church power unto women , and the giving of a power to celebrate Sacraments unto private men , which yet are said to be the Tenets of some of their friends . It is true , the Synod of New England maketh not only the fraternity , but as they speak , the sorority also to be the subject of the private power of the Keyes of the Kingdom of heaven ( ggg ) ; also we have shewen how they have permitted women to be Leaders to their whole Churches , and chiefe Pastors in Church actions of the highest nature : we have good witnesses that a woman was the founder of Mr Simpsons Church at Rotterdam ( hhh ) ; that a woman , and that none of the best led away Mr Cotton , and with him great numbers of the best note in New England , towards the vilest errours , and to the brink of a new separation from all the Churches there ( iii ) . Notwithstanding all this , none of the Independents , either in New England or Holland , neither the Brownists of Amsterdam , did ever give unto any women any publike Ecclesiastick power . In this , our London Independents exceed all their Brethren , who of late begin to give unto women power of debating in the face of the Congregation , and of determining Ecclesiastick causes by their suffrages , if Doctor Bastwick be rightly informed ( kkk ) . Concerning the power of the Sacraments , Mistris Chidley is permitted to print in defence of the Independent cause , without the reproofe of any of that party , so farre as I have heard , that not only Pastors but private men out of all office , may lawfully celebrate both the Sacraments ( lll ) . However , in these and other things there may be great difference among them in the point of Church power , yet that which is the principall point in this head of power , the matter of Independency , in it there is a full and perfect agreement among them all . Whatever power , whether of Liberty or Authority , be in the Congregation , organicall , or homogeneous ▪ radically or habitually , in the Brothehood or Eldership , conjunctly or severally ; whatever power it be , or wheresover it be , all of them place it in the Congregation , without any subjection to any other Superiour ( mmm ) . The word of Independency , some of them do much abominate , and yet but some ; for there are of their chiefe Leaders this day , who do not mislike it ( nnn ) : but what ever wee speak of the word , the matter which every man did understand by it , is stifly maintayned by them all . In nothing there is greater concord among them then that in the smallest Congregations , even of seven persons , the whole Ecclesiastick power doth reside absolutely without any dependence upon or subjection to any or all the creatures on earth ( ooo ) . Whatever may be sayd of a charitable advice or friendly counsell , or brotherly rebuke , yet if you speak of any authoritative power to censure , all of them avow that the offer of this from all assemblies of a nation , or of the world , is Antichristian Tyranny ( ppp ) : and for any person in the smallest Congregation to receive , or submit themselves to any such censure , were to betray and cast away the liberty wherewith Christ hath made them free ( qqq ) . So that it is utterly unlawfull for all the Churches of the World to inflict the least censure , or to give the smallest admonition in order to any censure , not only to any Congregation , but to any one man therein , suppose he were never so erroneous , never so scandalous ; although he did infect and destroy , not only all the soules of that Congregation , but as a common pest did corrupt the Churches of a whole Nation , or if it were possible , of the whole World ( rrr ) . This strange Tenet seemeth to be either the root or the fruit , either the mother or the daughter of all the rest of their errors : the mother and root , because a few persons having locked themselves up within the narrow walls of one Congregation , with an Independent power , having made themselves uncontroulable by any or all upon earth ; they open a wide doore to any erroneous spirit , to mislead them towards what ever fancy can enter into any cracked braine , without all possibility of any effectuall remedy ; the daughter and fruit , because men who are conscious to themselves of singularities , which they feare will not be liked nor tolerated by others , upon their fond love towards these errours , doe affect such a liberty which may exempt them from all danger to bee ordained by any censure to relinquish these darlings , which they have resolved to keep still in their bosome . The fatuity of this Tenet they use to season with the graines of three more sapid positions : First , they grant the being of Classicall Psesbyteries and Synods ( sss ) . Secondly , they ascribe to them the censure of Non-Communion ( ttt ) . Thirdly , they allow the Magistrate to correct Hereticall and Shismaticall persons ( www ) . But if they will consider , they shall finde that in none of those positions , they goe beyond the Brownists and by them all they doe not any whit cure the disease of Independency . For the first , they admit not of any Classicall Presbytery differing from a Synod ; for what ever they speak of their granting gladly unto us all the degrees and Subordinations of Assemblies which we could wish : yet betwixt a Congregationall Eldership and a Synod , they grant not any interposition of a Classis ; or compounded Presbytery over more Congregations then one ( xxx ) , which kinde of Presbytery the Reformed Churches make the first and ordinary subject of Ordination , and of sundry acts of Jurisdiction : esteeming it a Iudicatory specifically different both from the inferiour Eldership of a single Congregation and the Superiour Synod , whither of a Shire or a Province , or a Nation , or of more , or of all Nations . Besides ▪ that Synod whereof they approve , is only a Brownisticall one , such as needeth not to be moderated by any Preacher ( yyy ) ; at the which any man who pleaseth may be present to debate , and vote decisively ( zzz ) . Yea , they goe here much beyond the Brownists and their Brethren of New-England also ; for they deny that the 15 of the Acts , is either a pattern or ground for any Synod ( aaaa ) , expresly contrary to Mr Cottons latest Doctrine ; neither will they have any ordinary or set Synods , but only occasionall , and when the occasion of a Synod commeth , they will have it to be meerely elective ( bbbb 1. ) : consisting of such persons alone as themselves please to chuse , not only of the Churches of their own Independent way alone , but also of such only among these as themselves think meet to pitch upon ( bbbb 2 ) : if a Classis or Synod bee of any other temper , they count it so corrupt and so tyrannicall a Court , that they could not countenance it with their presence ; yea , not so much as they would doe an Episcopall Sea ( cccc ) : the one being much worse then the other : that the Brownists Independency went ever thus farre I doe not know . As for their sentence of Non-Communion , it is one of Mr Cottons new additions to old Brownisme ( dddd ) ; which it seemes rather to embitter then sweeten ; for it is a meer humane invention to supply the ordinances of God , which men injuriously have cast away : when they have denied to Synods the power of these censures which God hath appointed , and finde themselves straightned by the absolute necessity of the matter , to take up againe either them or their equivalent : they will not be so changeable as to resume the censures whereof God is the Author , having once cast them away : but in their place they are forced to finde out some of their own , these their new declarations and abstentions from fellowship and such like new censures of their owne . But which is worst of all , these their new censures if there be any force in them , advance their Independency to the highest degree of power : or rather lift it up highly in the aire , and by a repugnancy and contradiction , make it evaporate to nothing ; for this Non-Communion giveth power to every one , even the smallest Congregation , over all the Churches in the World it pleaseth to deale with , so farre as to admonish , rebuke , declare against them all , and cast them all out of her Communion ( eeee ) . The Reformed Churches contend only for a power to a great Assembly , for censuring a faulty member of a small Congregation ; but this Non-Communion gives to the smallest Congregation of any seven persons , the power of sentencing the whole Churches and all the Assemblies in the World. Howbeit , this Non-Communion , seemes to be contradictory and destructive of that Independency which it was invented to salve : For if every Congregation bee Independent , how shall all Congregations be so dependent upon every one , that any the least may inflict this high censure upon the greatest , yea upon all . Beside , this Non-Communion is nothing but the highest straine of separation that ever any Brownist aimed at ; it giveth a power for any Church to deny Communion to all Churches , and to live separate without all Communion with any Church for ever . This produceth an other power of a farther separation , to wit , a power to every member of that separate Church upon any grievance not satisfied to separate himselfe , and either live there alone as many do , or to gather a new Church , of any whom they finde willing to associate with them : these things are brought not so much for reasons to evert the positions in hand ; as to shew how unfit limitations they are of the extravagancy which appeareth in Independency , and how much they runne out beyond the bounds which they pretend to hem in . As for their third Tenet of the Magistrates concurrence , to second their sentence of Non-Cummunion , besides that the Brownists goe as farre as ever any of them did in this ( ffff ) : we see now that the chiefe of them have recalled the Tenet : though all the Protestant Churches , and none more then they of New-England , doe maintaine the Mag●strates power to suppresse errours ; yet this unhappy love towards liberty , whereinto the Independent party here among us have lately fallen , makes them to entreat the Magistrate to let alone the affaires of Religion , though they runne into all the confusion whither Satan and his Instruments are able to carry them ( gggg ) . If the Magistrates feare of God doth stop his eare to such impious petitions , then they flee up very high even to the deniall and decrying of all the Magistrates power in matters of Religion ( hhhh ) ; which yet the Papists in England and the Arminians in Holland , who have been the greatest pleaders hitherto for liberty , were never bold to impugne ; but of this more hereafter . I hope I have demonstrated that in the point of Separation and of the constitution and government of the Church , the great and only intended Articles of the Brownists , our brethren the Independents come nothing behind them : Sure , in these their conceits they applaud themselves no lesse then the former ; they put in these things the very Kingdome of Christ : all their opposites , in these fancies , they make them enemies to Christs Kingdome ( iiii ) : they avow Independency to be a beginning , and a part of that glorious Kingdome which Christ for a thousand yeares is to enjoy upon earth ( kkkk ) . Concerning the worship of God and other heads of Divinity , whatever crotchets the Brownists have fallen into , the Independents punctually doe follow the most and worst of them : and if in any they come short , they are sure to exceed in other things more dangerous . First , for the marriage blessing , they applaud the Brownists Doctrine , they send it from the Church to the Town-house , making its solemnization the duty of the Magistrate ( llll ● ; this is the constant practice of all in New-England : the prime of the Independent Ministers now at London , have been married by the Magistrate , and all that can bee obtained of any of them , is to be content that a Minister in the name of the Magistrate and as his Commissioner may solemnize that holy band . Concerning Divorces , some of them goe farre beyond any of the Brownists , not to speak of Mr Milton , who in a large Treatise hath pleaded for a full liberty for any man to put away his wife , when ever hee pleaseth , without any fault in her at all , but for any dislike or dyspathy of humour ( mmmm ) ; for I doe not know certainely whither this man professeth Independency ( albeit all the Hereticks here , whereof ever I heard , avow themselves Independents ) ; what ever therefore may be said of Mr Milton , yet Mr Gorting and his Company were men of renown among the New-English Independents , before Mistrisse Hutchinsons disgrace : and all of them do maintaine , that it is lawfull for every woman to desert her husband , when he is not willing to follow her in her Church way , and to take her selfe for a widow , loosed from the bond of obedience to him , only because he lives without that Church whereof she is become a member ( nnnn ) . Concerning the circumstances of the worship of God , they will have nothing determined , but all which Scripture hath not determined , to be left so free , that all Directories are much against their stomacks . How much they did crosse that gracious and excellent work of the Directory for the three Kingdoms , and when it was begunne , how long they did retard it ; and after it was brought to an end , through all the mountaines of impediments which they did cast up in its way ; how earnest they were by slight of hand to have put in its Preface such phrases as might have altogether made frustrate the use of it , is well known to many : yea , when a Directory for the three Nations is established by the Assemblies and Parliaments of both Kingdoms , they are bold so farre to slight it , as to write unto the very Parliament , that uniformity is but a matter of forme , in the which for peace sake men will come up so farre as conscience can permit , intimating that all our covenanted uniformity must be resolved into the free-will or erroneous conscience of every private man. In the abolishing of the monuments of Idolatry , they agree so farre with the Brownists , that they will not name the dayes of the week , the months of the yeare , the places of meeting after the ordinary manner ( oooo ) ; yet they make no scruple to use the Churches builded in the time of Popery , nor of Bels though invented by a Pope , and baptized with all the Popish Superstitions ▪ how this doth stand with their principles , I doe not well know , especially with their practice about another circumstance , the Church-maintenance . For , the ancient way of maintenance by Tythes , or Lands , or set Stipends , they do refuse , ( pppp ) and require here the reduction of the Apostolique practice . They count it necessary that all the Church Officers should live upon the charge of the Congregation , the Ruling Elders and Deacons as well as the Pastors and Doctors ( qqqq ) ; but all they will have them to receive , is a meer Almes , a voluntary Contribution , layd down as an offring at the Deacons feet every Lords Day , and by him distributed to all the Officers and the poore of the Congregation according as they have need ( rrrr ) . This is their Doctrin , but it seemes they are weary long ago of its practice . The Brownists ( as I heare ) are yet constant to practise what they teach , allowing their Ministers for their better supply , and that they may not be too burthensom to the Congregation , the use of handy Trades . but the Independents of New-England have a better provision , not only a proportion of Land , but a certayn Tax of money layd on by the Magistrate , both upon the members of the Congregation , and upon all the neighbours , though not received members of any Church . ( ssss ) These also of London , Arnheim , and Roterdam , have been famous for a sufficient care of a set provision , above the ordinary , to the rate of two or three hundred pounds a year ( tttt . ) And lest their Income should decrease with too large deduction for the supply of the poore , it hath been their providence to admit none or few poore members of their Congregations ( wwww . ) Concerning other circumstances , the form of their Church , and Pulpit , and such like , I have not observed any difference in the Meeting-houses of the one at Roterdam , and the other at Amsterdam . For the parts of the worship , as I take it , there is little difference ; only the Independents seem in their administration more to vary the persons ; sometimes they make one to pray , and another to preach , a third to prophesie , and a fourth to dismisse with a blessing ( xxxx ) . In the ordering of the parts of their worship after Mr Cottons invention , they take it for an Apostolick injunction , to begin first of all with a large solemne Prayer for the King and the Church , applying the words of the Apostle against the cleare scope of the Text , and all the writers which I have consulted upon it , to this very method of the ordinances , and to this matter of the first Prayer ( yyyy ) . After the Prayer the Doctor proceeds to read and expound : their ordinary practice here agrees with the other , but their Doctrine differeth ; for the Independents at London grant , that reading by it selfe without exposition , is a divine Ordinance , however in their practice they conjoyne both . In preaching they differ from the Brownists and us , and joyn with the Popish Monks ; they will not be tyed to a Text of Scripture , for the ground of their discourse , but will be at liberty to run out on whatsoever matter they think most fit and expedient for their hearers ( zzzz ) . About prophesying after Sermon , they are at a full agreement , permitting to any private man of the flock , or to any stranger whom they take to be gifted , publikly to expound and apply the Scripture , to pray and to blesse the people . They permit two or three of these after the end of the Sermon to exercise their gifts ( aaaaa ) . When the exercise of the Prophets is ended , they use another Ordinance of questioning the Preachers and Prophets by any member of the Congregation , about any point of the Doctrine ( bbbbb ) ; but this exercise , as also the former , hath proved so unhappy in New England , that gladly there they would be quit of both ( ccccc ) . In the Psalms the Independents wander wider then their Teachers ; some of them will have no songs in the time of publike Iudgements ( ddddd ) : others will not permit women to sing in the Church ( eeeee ) : but the greatest difference is , that the Independents of Arnheim did stop the mouthes of all but one , who did sing the Hymne which himselfe had composed , in the midst of the Congregation for their edification ( fffff ) . In Prayer they fall short of their masters ; for however they use no set Prayer , yet they are so farre from esteeming of it Idolatry , that they professe both set and read Prayer to be lawfull ( ggggg ) : The Lords Prayer they commend to be said even in publike , and they permit private men to read prayer in their families ( hhhhh ) ; in this they have Mr Robinson for their guide ; yet at London their pactice is constantly to forget the Lords Prayer . In the Sacrament of Baptism the Independents lay a path-way to Anabaptism ; for first they come close up to the most rigid Brownists , denying Baptism to the most part of Christian Infants ; yea they will grant it to a very few ; to these alone whose immediate parents are members of their Congregation ( iiiii ) , who are a wonderfull poor handfull : all other Infants they will have unbaptized till they come to the yeares of understanding , and declare not only their actuall faith and holinesse , but their subjection to the Kingdom of Christ , that is to their Independency : they will have no stipulation made for the Infants education ; they dispute much for dipping , though they deny not the lawfulnesse of sprinkling ( kkkkk ) . But that which maketh men most afraid for their Anabaptism , is their open deserting all the Reformed Churches , and the Brownists themselves , in three grounds . First , they deny the federall holinesse of Christian children ; against this Tho. Goodwin did preach , and deny openly that common distinction of Protestants of reall and federall holinesse , requiring in every Infant to be baptized a reall and inherent sanctity . If this ground be maintained , I see not how Anabaptism , or else Arminianism , will be avoyded ; for if this reall holinesse above foederall , be the great ground of Baptism , and this cannot be asserted in the judgement of verity of any Infant ; for whatever we say of the judgement of charity , yet in the judgement of truth , and with the certainty of faith wherewith we must assent to every Scripture , who can say that any particular Infant is holy , and so that any Infant should be baptized ? or if we can say in the judgement of truth , that every baptized Infant is really sanctified , as it seems Mr Robinson hath taught Mr Goodwin , if Mr Rathband understand right the 309 p. of Rob. justification ( kkkkk 2 ) , the Arminians have wonne the field ; for no man doubts but many baptized Infants , even in their way , do fall away totally and finally from whatsoever holinesse can be supposed to be in them . If these inextricable difficulties did move Mr Goodwin to stop the Presse that it went not on with his Sermons against the Anabaptists , himselfe doth know . Secondly , they esteem not baptized Infants to be members of their Church before they have entred into their Covenant ; till then they hold them from the Lords Table and all the acts of Discipline , as people without the Church and not members of it ( lllll ) : If it be so , their Baptism was of so small use that well they might have wanted it to the time of their admission to be members . Thirdly , they account Anabaptism a very tolerable errour ; so farre as ever we heard to this day , they did never so much as rebuke any of their members for it , much contrary to the practice of the Brownists , and of their Brethren in New England , who ever have removed the Anabaptists from their Churches , as Sectaries of a speciall evill note . We have long observed the great affection of Independents here towards them who professed opposition to Paedo-Baptism , but did never expect to have heard them declare any thing towards the Arminian errours of the Anabaptists . The Lords Supper they desire to celebrate at night after all other Ordinances are ended ( mmmmm ) ; albeit the Brownists now take it in the forenoon . In the persons who do communicate , they are as strict as any of the Brownists ; for notwithstanding all that their Brethren of New England , and themselves also , and their Apology do professe , of their communicating of the Sacrament with the rest of the Reformed Churches , which sometimes also is the Brownists profession ; yet it is told them without reply to this day , that in London , however they have admitted Brownists and Anabaptists to their Sacrament , and they have communicated in the Brownists Congregations ( nnnnn ) ; yet that none of them have ever offered to participate of the holy Communion in any other Congregation , nor have admitted any to communicate with them who were not of their owne way ( ooooo ) . For the manner of their celebration , they who have seen it , professe it to be in a very dead and comfortlesse way : it is not as in New England , once in the month , but as at Amsterdam , once every Lords day ( ppppp ) , which makes the action much lesse solemn then in any other of the Reformed Churches , and in this too much like the daily Masses of the Church of Rome . They have no preparation of their flock before : they are so happy as to have all their members prepared alwayes sufficiently for the Lords Table , from their first entrance into their Church to their dying day ; for all this time there is no catechising among them , this exercise is below their condition , & altogether needlesse in any of their Congregations . They will have no Sermon in the week before , nor so much as any warning of the Communion . This practice of New England , to give warning the Sabbath before , is disliked now at London : nor must there be any Sermon of Thanksgiving after that Sacrament : They use not so much as a little application of the Doctrine in the Sermon before it to that occasion ( qqqqq ) . When they come to the action , there is no more but one little discourse , and one short prayer of the Minister ; all the time of the participation , there is nothing in the Congregation but a dumb silence : no reading , no exhortation , no Psalmes , their people need no such meanes to furnish them in their Sacramentall meditations ; they have also learned from the Brownists , a double and distinct consecration , one for every element apart . They have another difference from all the Reformed , and in a part also from their Brethren of New-England . That their Conformity with the Brownists may bee full , the New-English doe count sitting at a Table , not only to bee necessary , but to be a part of our imitation of Christ , and a Rite significant of divers heavenly Priviledges and Comforts ( rrrrr ) ; but as the Brownists at Amsterdam this day have no Table at all , as they send the Elements from the Pulpit ( the place where the Minister preacheth , and celebrateth the Sacrament ) by the hand of the Deacon to all the Congregation , where in their meeting house they sit up and down in their severall places : So the Independents at London , doe vehemently contend for the needlesnesse of any to come to the Table , what ever be the practice of all the rest of the Reformed Churches : But they will have the holy Seales carried from the place where the Minister preaches to the people in their Pews , or where ever else they have their ordinary places for hearing of the Word ; although most easily in their small Congregations without any disturbance all might bee brought to the Table ( sssss ) . But their maine difference from all the Reformed , and greatest consonancy with the Brownists , is in this , that as they teach all outward signes of Worship in the time of the Celebration to be Idolatry , and hereupon declare the necessity of all men who will follow the example of the first Communicants , to keep on their Hats , all the time of this holy action ; so likewise the Independents begin to teach their disciples ; for however at Amsterdam this day the named Doctrine bee not fully practised , the men there covering their heads in the time of the Celebration ; but every one uncovering , during the time of their own personall participation of the Elements ; yet we are now taught at London that covering is most requisite at the time of participation . That this act is a Rite significant to the Communicants of their Table-honor , and fellowship with Christ , also that the Minister in all his Celebration must be uncovered , and that in sign of his service to the Communicants , as the Lords much honoured children , sitting covered when they eat of their Fathers meat ( ttttt ) . After all the Worship is ended , the Congregation may not yet be dismissed , but one ordinance more in the end of the day must be attended , the exercise of Discipline ; in this the Independents come up fully to their masters ; the whole people must be present to heare , judge , and voyce at every act of Discipline ( wwwww ) . In any Congregation the acts of discipline , when best managed , are very tedious and long , but with them more then anywhere else ; for their contentions are more and more tough , as we may see in the best ruled Congregations that ever they had ; That of Arnheim and Roterdam : if the praise given by the Apologists to them be just ; there the exercise of discipline hath bin very tedious : the whole Congregation to their extreme wearinesse and fretting , have been forced to lay aside the works of their ordinary calling for many dayes of the week , to attend the Iudging of these causes which on the Sabbath dayes could not be ended ( xxxxx ) . In the Cognition of these causes , every member of the Congregation must be satisfied in his own minde concerning every passage of every action ; for they doe not proceed by the plurality of numbred voyces , but with the harmonious consent of all who have right to voyce ( yyyyy ) . And if it fall out that any doe dissent from the most , they appoint in that case paines to be taken for the information of the dissenters that they may consent ; but if these paines prove fruitlesse , and the Dissenters refuse to joyn with their brethren , they are declared obstinate , and to have lost the right of voycing for that time ( zzzzz ) . Yea , which is worst of all , and which puts these Congregations upon the smallest occasions upon unavoydable and remedilesse divisions , they appoint all who continue in their dissent in any matter of weight , to be farther proceeded with for their contumacy ( aaaaaa ) . The publike meetings of the Brownists are so long and tedious , that we doe not heare of their stomack for any private ; but the Independents are yet for private meetings ; how long they will be in love with them , we cannot say ; for in New-England where they were most in request , their fruits have been very bitter ; these meetings of a middle sort betwixt Congregationall and Domestick , were the occasion very neere to ruine both that Church and State ; for in these it was where under the pretence of religious conference , and re-petition of Sermons , false doctrine and wicked calumnies against the most Orthodox of the Ministers and Magistrates , were spread for the renting and ( had not God prevented it ) the destroying of the State both Civill and Ecclesiastick ( bbbbbb ) . For the present , where they are in gathering of their Congregations , these meetings in private houses ( of all who will ) are a very pregnant meanes to steale away men and women from their own Pastors ; but if once their gathering of Churches were at an end , and their greatest care were for the keeping and edifying of what they had gotten , it is like that then they would be as cautious as now all other Churches are , even the Brownists and these of New-England , of such meetings which except well moderated and limited , under faire pretences , are exceeding fit to make new divisions , and ever to frame new Societies of some , as it were , more select and eminent Christians out of the common Congregation . Concerning the Magistrate , the Tenets of the Independents would bee well considered , because of their open proclamation of their loyalty beyond and above all which the principles of any Reformed Church will permit them ( cccccc ) . Had they magnified never so much their own vertues , without the expresse disparagement of others ; had they put in the ballance with themselves an equall or a double number of the greatest men in any of the Reformed Churches , who yet would be very ponderous when they lie in the Scales against five particular men the Authors of that comparison , had they preferred themselves before all the Reformed Churches , in a casuall & contingent action , not in a maine duty , which their very principles are alledged to diminish ; had they whispered all this in the eares of their friends , and not made a Proclamation of it to both the Houses of Parliament , and that in print to be trumpeted out in the eares of all the world ; it might have been past over with the lesse either observation or offence : But since in so publike a manner they have required the Magistrate to believe their great deferences to him and the smaller respect he can expect from any out of their way : it seemeth very necessary to produce , not these particular respects which the Reformed Churches professe , according to their principles to give unto the Magistrate & continually have given according to their professions ( for these are well known to the world long before any of our new Censors were in being ) but what these singular duties may be , which the Independents above all other men by their principles are forced to performe to Magistrates , while they may be at leisure to publish them to the world , I will here present unto them the materialls of some few short observations for that purpose . First , that divers of their party , and those of very eminent note , though miscarrying in other things , yet keeping fast to the way of Independency , have denyed to the Magistrate all power over any of the Godly ( dddddd ) . And others of them with the grossest Anabaptists have denyed the lawfulnesse of any Magistrate at all ( eeeeee ) . Secondly , doe not their principles hold out of the Church , and deprive of all Christian consolation which flowes from any Church priviledge , the farre greater part , if not absolutely all Kings , and Princes that are this day in the Christian world , and have been since the dayes of the Gospel , or ever are likely to be upon earth to the worlds end ? how exceeding few of all that are , or have been Members of Parliament of either House , of all that have been or are Magistrates in England , if their principles might be put in practice , would be admitted to the Lords Table , or yet their children be baptised , or themselves be reputed Christians and Members of any lawfull Church ? Thirdly , of these exceeding few Kings , Princes , Peeres , Commoners and Magistrates of the Land , which they could take into their Congregations ; how many could have assurance to live any long time in a Christian condition as Members of a Church according to their principles ? Since they tell us that they are to Excommunicate without any delay , the greatest Kings for any fault either in beliefe or life , which doth subject the poorest servants to censure ; how many and frequent these faults may be , it is hard to judge ; but the worst is , when the greatest Kings and the chiefe Members of Parliament without any respect to their dignity , are cast out of the Church for themselves and their children , by the peevishnesse or errour , or malice of a few in a small Congregation , they have no meanes under heaven to redresse themselves of their injury ; they and theirs must live as Pagans out of the Church , till they who did cast them out , be perswaded and become willing to take them in ; should all the Divines all the Assemblies , all the Churches of their Dominions , see cleerly as the light their notorious wrong ; yet there were no possibility to helpe it by any mortall hand till the injurious Congregation it selfe , of its own accord , should be pleased to repaire it . Fourthly , they permit none to be Magistrates where they have power , not so much as to be a member of their smallest civill Courts , except they be fully for their way , and be admitted members of their Church , as it hath ever been their practice in New-England to this day ; but the Magistrates they admit of , who are of their minde , they debase their power so low as to suspend it all on the will and pleasure of the promiscuous multitude , not only to limit the Soveraignty of Princes within the bounds of their just Lawes , and to confine them unto the Counsell of their Parliaments , but to bring both them and Parliaments and all Magistrates to their first originall and Makers , to the free will of these whom they use to stile the prophane multitude ( ffffff ) . Fifthly , have any of the Reformed Churches now for an h●ndred yeares and above , given to Magistrates such occasion to feare an unjust insurrection , as they in the few yeares of their being have already furnished ? To passe by all their threatnings in this time of confusion ( gggggg ) ( while their strength is yet inconsiderable ) and their mighty endeavours to get Armes into their hand to enable themselves with the evident hazard of the whole Isle , to doe what they please by force ( hhhhhh ) . Let men only look over to the fruits of their principles in New-England , not many yeares agoe there , upon a very small , and so farre as I know very groundlesse suspition , to have somewhat of their Government altered by the King contrary to their Patent , they did quickly purchase and distribute Armes among all their people , and exact of every one an Oath for the defence of their Patent against all impugners whosoever ; Mr Williams opposition to this Oath as he alledgeth , was the cheife cause of his banishment ( iiiiii ) . What principles could these be , that moved the same people a little after to doe and say such things for which their Magistrates did disarme so many of their Church members , not only elsewhere , but even at Boston , upon fear of an apparent insurrection for the killing of the principall Magistrates , and overturning the whole state of that Countrey ( kkkkkk 1. ) Few Magistrates will hereafter confide in these principles which saved not the Governour and generall Court of New-England , from extreme danger by the members of Mr Cottons Congregation at New Boston . Sixthly , doe the Independents principles give to the Magistrate any Ecclesiastick power at all ? will they submit to his civill power in any Ecclesiastick affaires ? will they be hindered by the Magistrates sentence , unlesse it be executed with violence to erect Congregations within his Dominions at their own pleasure ? will their principles permit them upon the command of King and Parliament , to refuse to take into their Congregations the members of other Parish Churches without a dismision , or take and admit upon the Magistrates command within their number , any whom they account unfit for membership , or to recall for the Magistrates pleasure any of their Church censures ? have they not very lately declared to the Parliament , that they esteem all matters of Religion free and exempt from their sword and power ? That all matters both of worship and doctrine , that all things of the mind as they speak , or matters of opinion , and all matters of outward forme wherein uniformity is required according to our Covenant , are so farre to be ruled by every mans own conscience his own light and reason ▪ that the Parliament is not in any such matters to interpo●e their power ? whither this bee the true sence of their openly avowed and repeated letters to the Parliament it selfe , let every intelligent man consider who reads the words ( kkkkkk 2 ) . Seventhly , are any of the Reformed Churches or any Churches or persons of the whole world so injurious to Magistrates as their principles force them to be , who ●poyl Christian Kings and Parliaments of their whole Legislative power ? they will have us to beleeve , as good Divinity , that it is not only unlawfull for Church-assemblies to make Ecclesiastick Canons , but that it is alike unlawfull for any Prince or State to make a Civill Law , ( llllll ) That the placing of a Legislative power in Kings or Parliaments , is to usurp the property and prerogative of God. ( mmmmmm 1 ) These Principles cannot be very favourable to the State , which at one stroke annihilate all the Acts of Parliament that now are in force , either in this or any other Kingdom , and make it impossible ( if they were beleeved ) to have any more in any place of the earth , to the worlds end . Look back upon what I have cited from the chiefe of the Brownists writings . I grant the New English polishers of Brownism doe not expresse their Tenets in tearms so hugely grosse ; yet see how neare they come to them in substance , when they tell us that no Magistrate may make any Lawes about the Bodies , Lands , Goods , Liberties of the Subject , which are not according to the Lawes and Rules of Scripture , Scripture being given to men for a perfect rule , as well in matters of Civill Iustice , as of devotion and holinesse ( mmmmmm 2 ) ; and if so , then they must make it as unlawfull and contrary to the Scriptures perfection , for any man to make Lawes in matters of Righteousnesse and of the State , as in matters of Holinesse and of the Church . That beside things in themselves good or evill , which Scripture determines by its Lawes expresly , things of an indifferent nature , whereupon the most of civill Laws are made , must be regulated according to the Scripture rules of Piety , Charity , and Conscience , so farre that the expediency and reason of the Law must ever carry and convince the conscience of the Subject : that no man is obliged to the obedience of a civill Law in a thing never so indifferent by the authority of the Law-giver , but every man whose conscience is not convinced of the piety and charity of that Law , is free from all obedience and subjection thereto : Thus farre Mr Cotton ( mmmmmm 3. ) Eightly , what men besides them have made so bold with Kings and Parliaments , as not only to break in pieces their old Lawes , and to divest them of all power to make new ones ; but also under the pretext of a divine right , to put upon their necks that unsupportable yoak of the Iudiciall Law of the ●ewes , for peace and for warre , without any power to dispence either in addition or substraction ( nnnnnn 1 ) ? I grant this principle of Barrow is limited by Mr Cotton to such Iudicials as do containe in them a morall equity ( nnnnnn 2 ) ; but this morall equity is extended by him to so many particulars , as Williams confesses the whole Iudiciall Law to be brought back again thereby , no lesse then by the plaine simple and unlimited Tenet of the rigidest Brownists ( nnnnnn 3. ) Ninthly , doth any Reformed Church appoint their Ministers to be members of the highest civill Courts , with power of voiceing in the election of the supream Magistrate ? ( oooooo . ) Do any Divines but theirs , since the Bishops were abolished , joyne themselves as companions with the Magistrates , to draw out of Scripture a body of civill Lawes for the Government of the State ? ( pppppp . ) Tenthly , did ever any Divines but theirs , so evidently mock the Magistrate , by instructing him according to their own interest , as it were from heaven , to contradictory practises , in New-England where the Magistrate is in their way , to perswade him the necessity under paine of sinne and judgement , to kill all Idolaters , and false Prophets , to destroy whole Cities ; men , women , and children , who are seduced by a false Prophet ( qqqqqq ) ? Making a path-way by this meanes to the slaughter , not only of all Papists and Hereticall Sects , but also of many good Protestants , who to the Brownists are Idolaters for the reading of Prayer , and obstinate enemies of the Kingdom of Christ for their mislike of Independency , according to the open profession of the prime Independents ( rrrrrr . ) Their Doctrine in Old England , where the Magistrate is out of their way , is diametrally opposite to this : for here they make it a Theomachy ( ssssss ) , a fighting with God to deny a free liberty to Papists , to the worst Heresies and Schisms , to Iudaism , Turcism , Paganism , or if any errour can be imagined to bee more pernicious . I beleeve that few prudent Magistrates , when they have well ruminated these and the like principles of the Independents , will esteem them much more conducible for their ends , then the principles of the Reformed Churches . In the point of Schools and Learning , how farre they will follow the Brownists , I cannot say : divers of them have as good a share in learning as their neighbours ; yet whatever they have of that kinde , they got it all before they entred into their new way , and whatever learning all of them do possesse , it is no more then what was among the Brownists , when they did most cry down learning . The most of their erudition this day dwels in New-England , that any reall course hath ever there been taken for its entertainment and propagation , I have not heard much ; though the Magistrate and the whole Land have beene and are at their Devotion ; and till of late they had no apparant hope of supplying their way from the Schools of other parts of the world . Were we not weary , we might go on yet farther in the paralell , especially in the doctrinall Tenets of the Independents , wherein already they have gone farre beyond the Brownists : you had a touch of the Arminianism of some in the reall Sanctification of all baptised Infants ; of the enthusiasms of others in their contemplations of God without Scripture ; of the Libertinism of a third , blaspheming God as the Authour of the sinfulnesse of sin : of the Arminian reprobation , the Antinomian , Montanist●ck and Familistick Tenets of a fourth ; for which I doubt if to this day they have given any satisfaction . The whole City hath been filled these many yeares with the noise of the Socinianism of the fifth ; many of them are passionate for a full liberty of all Religions in every State. The Apologists declare , that they will have none cast out of the Church for any errours which are not fundamentall ; and how farre they will extend this principle who can know ? only it would seem that all the named errours which do lodge or have lodged , as is alledged , in their prime Leaders , without any censure to this day , must be taken within the compasse of errours tolerable , not only in the State , but in the purest Churches . And if Arminian , Socinian , Anabaptistick , Antinomian , Familistick , Enthusiastick errours be declared not fundamentall , and tolerable in a Church , what shall we say of Prelaticall , Cassandrian and the most of the Popish Tenets that are no wayes so grosse ? Spalato and others have been at great paines to prove that none of all the Popish errours are fundamentall . The Remonstrant Apologists labour to free the greatest Heresies that ever were in the Church , such as Arrianism of old , and Vorstianism of late ▪ from that infamy . Certainly , though our Brethren had kept in their principle of change , and not declared their full resolution to go on farther then themselves or others have yet thought : what already they have positively delivered , giveth to the world just reason of doubt whither they may go , and where at last they will stop their very swift and volant progresse . The Testimonies of the sixth Chapter . ( a ) ANtap . p. 243. It was agreed upon , that they out of hand should bring in a Narrative of their opinions wherein they differed from us , and then should joyne with us in preaching against the Brownists and Anabaptists ; they never brought in their Narrative untill this day , and though at full meetings of the Ministers , they have been spoken unto , and some Ministers have been sent from the Company to some of them , and the Narrative was promised at such a time , and then at such a time yet it was never performed ; and whereas the agreement in writing for our side , was left in Mr Calamies hand , Mr Nye comes after some time to Mr Calamy , and pretends some reasons to borrow it for awhile ; but after he had it , he carries it away into Yorkshire , that so upon occasion of complaints of the breach of the agreement , when we would have consulted with that paper , it was gone , and Mr Nye keeps it to this day , and having been moved to restore it , His answer is , it is at Hull amongst other papers . ( b ) Apollonius Letter to the 5 Apologists , the 3 of May 1644. Hasce quaestiones ad vos reverendi viri transmitto de iisdem sententias vestras quaerens & ob mutuam nostram fidem & charitatem serio vos oro ut non detrectetis sincere dilucide & accurate absque Rhetorici apparatus diverticulis declarare , quid vos & fratres illi quibuscum societatem vestram Ecclesiasticam colitis de hisce sentiant , quoniam meae fidei ab Ecclesiis Christi id commissum est . Spero vos ex timore dei & charitate erga nos fratres vestros absque ullo pretextu sententias vestras hac de re declaraturos , idque quam cito fieri potest , urgent enim Ecclesiae nostrae ut opus hoc maturem ; This zealous adjuration hath not to this day drawn from any of them any declaration . ( c ) Apol. Nar. p 30. A relation of our judgments in the points of difference about Church-Government , we reserve unto the more proper season . ( d ) Keyes Preface , p. 6. Only we crave leave of the reverend Author to declare that we assent not to all expressions scattered up and down , or to all and every assertion interwoven in it ; yea , nor to all the grounds or allegations of Scriptures , nor should we in all things perhaps have used the same termes , to expresse the same materialls by . ( e ) Apol. Nar. p. 10. A second principle we carried along with us in all : our resolution was not to make our present judgement and practice a binding law unto our selves for the future ; and therefore in a jealousie of our selves , wee kept this rese●ve to al●er and retract , though not lightly what ever should be discovered to be taken up out of a misunderstanding of the rule , which principle we wish were next to that most supreame , enacted as the most sacred Law of all others . ( f ) Cottons Keyes published by Goodwin and Nye , p. 49. In what sence the Church of a particular Congregation is the first subject of the power of the Keyes , in the same sence it is Independent and none other , we taking the first subject and the Independent subject to be all one . Answer to the 32 questions . p. 46. For the matter of Independency , we confesse the Church is not so Independent , but it ought to depend upon ●hrist ; But for Dependency upon men or other Churches , or other Subordination unto them in regard of Church-Government and power , we know not of any such appointed by Christ and his Word . The Churches were not Dependent and Subordinate to others , but all of them absolutely free and Independent . Burtons Vindication ▪ p. 42. We are not so ashamed of the Title of Independency ▪ as utterly to disclame it , and that for two reasons ; first , for distinction sake , between us and that which you call Presbyteriall Government ; The second is , because this word Independent is to signifie that wee hold all particular Churches of Christ to be of equall authority , and none to have Iurisdiction over another , but each Church is under Christs Goverments as the sole head , King , Lord , Law-Giver thereof . ( g ) Apol. Nar. p. 22. We doe professedly judge the Calvinian Reformed Churches of the first Reformation from out of Popery to stand in need of a further Reformation themselves . ( h ) Ibid. p. 19. Wee think we give more to the Magistrate then the principles of the Presbyteriall Government will suffer them to yeeld . ( i ) Ibid. p. 24. Wee doe here publikely professe we believe the truth to lie and consist in a middle way , betwixt that which is falsely charged on us , Brownisme , and that which is the contention of these times , the Authoritative Presbyteriall Government . Preface to the Keyes , p. 5. We are yet neither afraid , nor ashamed to make profession that the substance of this briefe extract , is that very middle way betwixt that which is called Brownisme , and the Presbyteriall Government . ( k ) Vide supra , Chap. 2. ( B ) and ( R 2. ) ( l ) Prynnes Discovery , p. 29. Iohn Lilbourn in his Answer to 9 Arguments , p. 4. writes the Church of England is a true whoorish mother , and you are one of her base begotten and bastardly children . I say , the Church of England neither is , nor never was truly married to Christ in that espousall band which his true Churches are and ought to be , but is one of Anti-christs Nationall wh●orish Churches : your Church is false and Anti-christian , the Ministers of the Church of England , are not true Ministers of Christ , but false Ministers of Anti-christ , ibid. p. 31. This language and opinion of his concerning our English Church and Ministry , is seconded by most Independents in their late Pamphl●ts . ( m ) Mr Robinson hath written a whole Treatise upon this subject . ( n ) Answer to the 32 questions , p. 27. If we were in England , we should willingly joyne in some parts of Gods true worship , and namely , in hearing the Word where it is truly preached ; yea , though wee doe not know them to be true Churches . For some worship , as prayer , and preaching , and hearing the Word , is not peculiar to Church-Assemblies , but may bee performed in other meetings . Cottons letter examined , p. 43. The second thing which Mr Cotton himselfe hath professed concerning English Preachers , is , that although the Word , yet not the Seales may be received from them , because ( saith he ) there is no Communion in hearing , and the Word is to be preached to all but the Seales , &c. ( o ) Vide supra . Chap. 3. ( G. ) ( p ) Cottons Letter examined , p. 37. Cotton here confesseth these two things ; first , if any reproach the Church of Salem for Separation , it is a sin meet to be censured : secondly , the Churches themselves may be separated from , who tolerate their members in such causlesse reproachings , which I leave to himselfe to reconcile with his former profession against Separation . ( q ) Vide supra . Chap. 4. ( R ) ( r ) Vide supra , Chap. 5. ( E 1 ) . ( s ) Burtons Vindication , p. 45. We esteeme the Government of Christs Church so holy , as we cannot think them fit to be admitted , be they never so good , that think so slightly of the way , and of them that walk in it , that they refuse to agree to walk in this way with the people of God. Ibid. p. 62. Doe you not know that no Infants have any title to Baptisme , but by vertue of their Parents faith outwardly professed , and what outward profession of faith in the Parents that refuse Christ for their only King ? If therefore the Parents refuse thus to be in visible Covenant , can the children be said to be in visible Covenant , and so to have a right to baptisme ? If then the Parents by refusing Christ as their King , doe hereby cut themselves off from the Covenant , they doe therewith cut off their children to . ( z ) Ibid. p. 63. We dare not baptise the children of these Parents that refuse to professe the faith of Christ as their onely King as well as their only Priest and Prophet ; for Christ divided , becomes no Christ to the divider ; this is to dissolve Christ , that is , to receive him onely in part and not in whole , which is the spirit of Antichrist , ibid. p. 55. Such a conversion as you speak of , comes not home to whole Christ , and such with their Converters doe deny Christs Kingly Government ; what kind of Converters call you these ? at best they are converted but in part , and that maine thing is wanting , to wit , Christs Kingly Office which they come not up to by the preaching thereof . ( w ) Paper of Accommodation after the ninth proposition : We having weighed our Brethrens principles , doe find no probability of an Accommodation for them ordinarily to enjoy Congregations , unlesse it shall happen in a Parish that the Minister cannot administer the Sacraments to all of the Parish , whom possibly the neighbour Ministers or the Classis may judge fit to be admitted , such persons shall have power to procure to themselves the Sacraments by the help of a neighbour Minister , ibid. Whereunto our brethren adde as followeth , or otherwise if in a Parish it happen that there be a considerable number of such as cannot partake in the Ordinances with the Minister and people , there they shall have liberty to dispose of themselves as a distinct Church , and to choose a Minister or Ministers , at their own charge to be maintained to be their Pastor . ( x ) Thomas Goodwin to I. G. p. 1. Indeed we that are to admit doe it upon a conviction and perswasion of the parties true grace some way made forth visible to us . Welds answer , to chap. 3. Hee tells us that they must be reall Saints and syncere Believers , and that the Church in admitting of them , doth make exact tryall by examination of their knowledge , and the work of grace , first in private , then in publike , and that they be such as can cleave together in opinion and affection , and that they be such as know what belongs to Church-Covenant , approve it and seek it ; is there any thing in all this that you can blame ? ( y ) Ibid. In the Churches where we have lived many years , we have seen such a tender respect had to the weaker sex , that we commit their tryall to the Elders , and some few others in private , who upon their Testimony are admitted into the Church without any more adoe . ( z ) Rathbones Narration , p. 11. Beside true and reall Saintship , they require that the members to be admitted , be such as can cleave together , both in opinion and in affection , and that there be sutablenesse and sweetnesse of spirit in them , apt to close one with another . ( aa ) Vide supra , ( Z ) also Cotons Way , p. 7. ( bb ) Vide supra , fifth Chap. ( E 1. ) ( cc ) Apol. Nar. p. 9. Excommunication should be put in execution for no other kind of sinnes then may be evidently presumed to be perpetrated against the parties known light , as whether it be a sinne in manners and conversation , such as is committed against the light of nature , or the common received practises of Christianity professed in all the Churches of Christ ; or if in opinion , then such as are likewise contrary to the received principles of Christianity , and the power of godlinesse professed by the party himselfe , and universally acknowledged in all the rest of the Churches , and no other sinnes to be the subject of that dreadfull sentence . ( dd ) Bastwicks Postscript , p. 58. also his Iust defence . p. 39. ( ee ) An Apologie of the Churches in New-England , for a Church-Covenant ( ff ) T.G. to I.G. p. First , it is no more with us then this , an assent and resolution professed by them that are to be admitted by us , with promise to walk in all these wayes pertaining to this Fellowship , so farre as they shall be revealed to them in the Gospel ; thus briefly , indefinitly and implicitly , in such like words and no more or otherwise , do we apply our answers to mens consciences . Church-covenant , p. 36. We deny not , but the Covenant in many of the English Congregations is more implicite , and not so plaine as were to bee desired ; yet there wants not that reall and substantiall comming together or agreeing in Covenant , and that substantiall profession of faith , which thanks be to God , hath preserved the essence of visible Churches in England unto this day . ( gg ) Plaine dealing , p. 2. A Church is gathered after this manner ; a competent number of Christians come together in some fit place in a publike manner , and there confesse their sins , and professe their faith , and enter into Church-covenant ; after this , they doe at this same time or some other all being together , elect their own Officers , as Pastor , Teacher , Elders , Deacons , if they have fit men enough to supply these places ; else as many of them as they can bee provided of ; then they set another day for the Ordination of their said Officers . ( hh ) Answer to the 32 questions , p. 36. If Church-communion and the exercise of such Ordinances , as Christ hath appointed for his Church , was lawfull and needfull , when Magistrates were enemies to the Gospel , and be not so when Magistrates professe the Gospel , we doe not see but Christians may sometime be losers by having Christian Magistrates , and in worse condition then if they had none but professed enemies , ibid. p. 41. It is our practise in Ordination of Ministers , as also in removing of them , to have the assistance of Ministers of other Churches ; but for authority and power , we know none , that Ministers have , properly so called , in any Congregation save that one over which the holy Ghost hath made them Over-seers , and therefore we think it not lawfull when a Church is to Ordaine Officers , to call in by way of authority or power the Ministers of other Churches . ( ii ) Cottons Way , p. 1. The Church to which Christ hath committed the censures , is a combination of faithfull godly men , meeting by common consent into one Congregation , ibid. 7. Then such whose hearts God teacheth often meet together about the things of God and performe some duties of prayer and spirituall conference together , till a sufficient company of them be well satisfied in the spirituall good estate one of another , and so have approved themselves to one anothers consciences in the sight of God , as living stones fit to be laid in the Lords spiritull Temple , ibid. p. 10. The Church being thus gathered as hath beene described : Our next care is , that it may be supplyed with all these Officers which Christ hath ordained . ( kk ) Answer to the 32 Questions , p. 43. We doe not finde that God doth anywhere say they must be above forty or else they cannot be a Church : nay rather that speech of Christs , of two or three gathered together in his name , doth plainly imply , that if there be a greater number then two or three , whom they being not satisfied in the answer of an offender , may appeale unto , and in so doing tell the Church , such a small number may be a Church , and may have the blessing of his presence to be among them . ( ll ) Ibid. p. 8 , 9. When a visible Church is to be erected , it is necessary that in respect of quantity it be no more in number in the dayes of the New Testament , but so many as may meet in one Congregation . ( mm ) Ibid. p. 15. The Church is before the Ministers , seeing the power of chusing Ministers is given to the Church by Christ . ( nn ) Ibid. p. 68. The Church that hath no Officers , may elect Officers unto themselves ; therefore it may also ordaine them : if it hath power from Christ for the one , and that the greater , it hath also for the other which is the lesser : now , Ordination is lesse then Election . ( oo ) Ibid. p. 42. Vnto the 13 question , whether you think it convenient , that a company of private and illiterate persons should ordinarily examine , elect , ordaine , and depose their Ministers : a part of the answer to this question is , if there were none among them who had humane learning , we doe not see how this could hinder them of their Liberty to chuse Ministers , purchased to them by Christs precious blood ; for they that are fit matter to be combined into a Church body , have learned the Doctrine of the holy Scriptures in the fundamentall points thereof ; they have learned to know the Lord in their owne hearts ; therefore they may not bee reproached as illiterate or unworthy to chuse their owne Ministers ; nay they have the best learning , without which all other learning is but madnesse and folly . ( pp ) Plaine Dealing , p. 3. They set a day for the Ordination of their Officers , and appoint some of themselves to impose hands upon them : where there are Ministers or Elders before , they impose their hands upon the new Officers ; but where there is none , there some of their chiefest men two or three of good report amongst them , though not of the Ministry , doe by appointment of the same Church lay hands upon them . Cottons way , p. 40 , 41. Towards the end of the day , one of the Elders of the Church , if they have any , if not , one of the graver Brethren of the Church , appointed by themselves to order the work of the day , standeth up and enquireth in the Church &c. he advertiseth him who is chosen , what duties the Lord requireth of him in that place towards the Church ; then with the Presbytery of that Church , if they have any , or if not , with two or three others of the gravest Christians among the Brethren of that Church , being deputed by the body , he doth in the name of the Lord Jesus ordaine him to that Office , with imposition of hands , calling upon the Lord ; and so turning the speech to the person on whom their hands are imposed , he as the mouth of the Presbytery , expresses their Ordination of him , and puts a solemne charge upon him to look well to himselfe and the flock . After this the Elders of other Churches present , observing the presence of God in the orderly proceeding of the Church to the Officers Election and Ordination , one of them in the name of all the rest , doth give unto him the right hand of Fellowship in the sight of all the Assembly . ( qq ) Answer to the 32 questions , p. 48. If the Church hath power by election to chuse a Minister , and so power of instituting him , then of destituting also ; Instituere & destituere ejusdem est potestatis . ( rr ) Ibid. p. 44. We conceive that every Church properly so called , though they bee not above ten persons , or the least number that you mention , have right and power from Christ to transact all their owne Ecclesiasticall businesse , if so be they be able , and carry matters justly ; for the power of the Keyes Matth. 16.19 . is committed by Christ unto the Church . ( ss ) Cottons Catechism , p. 10. It is committed to the Presbytery to prepare matters for the Churches hearing . ( tt ) Answer to the 32 quest . p. 60. In this sense matters with us are carried according to the vote of the major part , that is , with the joynt consent of the whole Church , but yet because it is the mind of Christ . ( ww ) The propositions to which almost all our Elders did agree when they were assembled together : the first , the Fraternity is the first subject of all Presbyteriall power , radicaliter , id est causatim per modum collationis , non habitualiter , non actualiter , non formaliter . ( xx ) Anatom . p. 26. I heare of no ruling Elders that ever Mr Simpson had in his Church . Anatomist anatomised , p. 12. It is true de facto wee had none , but were resolved to have them . Notwithstanding this answer of Mr Simpsons , that Church of Rotterdam to this day hath never had a Presbytery , after more then seven yeares delay . ( yy ) Antap. p. 52. Pastors are necessary Officers in your Churches , and yet according to your practises your Churches are many yeares without them . ( zz ) Keyes p. 10. Authority is a morall power , and a superiour Order or State , binding or releasing an inferiour in point of subjection . Christ hath given no Iurisdiction but to whom he hath given office . The Key of power in a large sense , or Liberty , is in the Church ; but the Key of authority or rule , in a more strict sense , is in the Elders of the Church . ( aaa ) Excommunication is one of the highest acts of Rule ; and therfore cannot bee performed but by some Rulers ▪ now where all the Elders are culpable , there be no Rulers left in that Church to censure them : as therefore the Presbytery cannot excommunicate the whole Church , though apostate , for they must tell the Church , and joyne with the Church in that censure ; so neither can the Church excommunicate the whole Presbytery , because they have not received from Christ an Office of Rule without their Officers . Ib. preface p. 4. He gives unto the Elders or Presbytery a binding power of Rule and Authority peculiar unto them , and to the Brethren distinct and apart an interest of power and priviledge to concurre with them , and that such affaires should not be transacted but with the joynt agreement of both , though out of a different Right : so that as a Church of Brethren only could not proceed to any publike censures , without they have Elders over them ; so neither in the Church have the Elders power to censure , without the concurrence of the people : so as each alone have not power of excommunicating the whole of either , though together they have power over any particular person or persons in each . ( bbb ) Ibid. also Keyes p. 13. Else the Brethren have a power of order , and the priviledge to expostulate with their brethren in case of private scandals : so in case of publike scandall , the whole Church of brethren have power and priviledge to joyne with the Elders in inquiring , hearing , judging of publike scandals , so as to bind notorius offenders and impenitents under censure , and to forgive the repentant . ( ccc ) The propositions , 3. prop. The fraternity having authoritative concurrence with the Presbytery in Iudiciall acts . ( ddd ) Keyes , p. 16. Though the Church want authority to Excommunicate their Presbytery , yet they want not liberty to withdraw from them . ( eee ) Keyes Preface , p. 5. When we first read this of this learned Author , knowing what hath been the more generall current both of the practice and judgement of our brethren for the Congregationall way ; wee confesse we were filled with wonderment at that Divine hand that had thus led the judgements without the least mutuall interchange or intimation of thoughts or notions in these particticular of our brethren there and our selves here . ( fff ) Ibid. Onely wee crave leave of the reverend Author to declare that wee assent not to all expressions , &c. Vide supra . ( ggg ) Tabula . Potestas charitativa merè est primo frat●um & Presbyterorum charitativè non politicè ambulantium , secundo sororum . ( hhh ) Vide supra , Chap. 4. ( F ) . ( iii ) Vide supra , Chap. 3. ( M ) . ( kkk ) Bastwicks Independency , p. 99. The fifth Quaere is whether the women and people as well as the Ministers have the Keyes ? and whether the women have all their votes in the Church , both for election and reprobation of Members and Officers as well as the men ? and whether the consent of all the women , and the greatest part of them be requisite for the making of any one a member , or officer , so that if they gain-say it , being the greater number , or allow of it , the most voyces carry the businesse ? the practice of this the brethren in some of their Congregations hold for Orthodox . Mr Prynnes Fresh Discovery , in his Dedicatory Epistle to the Parliament , p. 5. And to interest the femall Sex and draw them to their party , they allow them not only decisive votes but liberty of preaching , prophesying , speaking in their Congregatitions . ( lll ) Keyes p. 6. We be farre from allowing that sacrilegious usurpation of the Ministers Office , which we heare of to our griefe to be practised in some places , that private Christians ordinarily take upon them to preach the Gospel publikely , and to Minister the Sacraments . Katharine Chidleys Iustification of the Independent Churches , p. 28. Yet that the Church must want the Word preached , or the Sacraments administred , till they have Pastors and Teachers in Office , is yet to be proved ; but that which hath been alledged , is sufficient to prove that the family must not be unprovided for , either for the absence or the negligence of a Steward . ( mmm ) Keyes , p. 53. A particular Congregation being the first subject of the Church power , is unavoidably Independent upon any other Church or body for the exercise thereof ; for the first subject of any accident or adjunct , is Independent upon any other , either for the enjoying or for the imploying , the having or using of the same . ( nnn ) Vide supra ( mmm ) . ( ooo ) Answer to the 32 Questions , p. 36. For Dependency upon men or other Churches , or other Subordination unto them in regard of Church-Government or power , we know not of any such appointed by Christ in his Word . ( ppp ) Welds Answer to Rathband , 14. chap. Our Churches are tender to perswade men to act without light , much more to command or to compell ; both which very words though the thing required were lawfull , are odious in the Churches of Christ most fitly becomming the Synagogues of Anti-christ . ( qqq ) Vide Cottons Keyes , p. 8. & infra ( zzz ) . ( rrr ) Cottons Catechisme , p. 13. All the Churches thereabout may meet together , and by the Word of God may confute and condemn such errours in doctrine or practice as are offensive , to prevent the spreading either of the gangrene of heresie or of the leprosie of sin ; and if the Church offending , shall not yet hearken unto their brethren , though the rest of the Churches have not power to deliver them to Satan ; yet they have power to draw from them the right hand of Fellowship . Vide infra , ( sss ) . ( sss ) Keyes , p. 57. In the Election and Ordination of Officers and censure of offenders , let it suffice the Churches consociate to assist one another with their counsel , but let them not put forth the power of their Community to take such Church Censures out of their hands ; let Synods have their just authority in all Churches how pure so ever , in determining such diataxeis as are requisite for the edification of all Churches . Keyes Preface , p. 4. Hee acknowledgeth that Synods or Classes are an Ordinance of Christ , unto whom Christ hath committed a due and just measure of power , furnishing them not onely with ability to give counsell , but also a Ministeriall power and Authority , to determine , declare and enjoyne such things as may tend to the reducing of Congregations to right order and peace ; but not arming them with power of Excommunicating either Congregations or their members ; they are to leave the former act of this censure to that Authority which can only execute it , placed by Christ in these Churches themselves ; which if they deny to doe or persist in their miscarriage then the Synod may determine to withdraw communion from them . ( ttt ) Ibid. ( www ) Keyes , p. 50.51 . The Magistates addresse themselves to the establishment of Religion , and Reformation of corruptions by civill punishments upon the wilfull opposers ; Iosiah put to death Idolatrous Priests ; nor was that a peculiar duty of the Kings of Iuda ; for of the times of the New-Testament it is Prophesied , that in some cases capitall punishment shall proceed against false prophets . ( xxx ) Keyes Preface , p. 4. Hee asserteth an association of Churches , sending their Elders and Messengers into a Synod ; so hee purposely chuseth to stile these Assemblies of Elders , which the Reformed Churches doe call Classes or Presbyteries . ( yyy ) Cottons Catechisme , p. 3. The office or work of the ruling Elders , is to moderate the carriage of all matters of the Church Assembled , as to propound matters to the Church , and to order the season of speech and silence in the Church . ( zzz ) Keyes p. 48. The pattern of Synods is set before us , Acts 15. There the Apostles assembled together with the Elders , and a multitude of brethren together with them , the whole Synod being satisfied , determine of a Iudiciall sentence , and of a way to publish it by Letters and Messengers ; so the matter is at last judged in a Congregation of Churches in a Church of Churches ; for what is a Synod else but a Church of Churches ? ibid. p 57. All the liberties of Churches were purchased to them by the precius blood of the Lord Iesus , and therefore neither may the Churches give them away , nor many Churches take them out of the hands of one . ( aaaa ) Keyes Preface , p. 6. In all humility wee yet see not that assembly of Apostles , Elders and brethren Acts 15 to have been a formall Synod . ( bbbb 1 ) Ibid. 4. He a●knowledgeth a Synod to be an Ordinance of God , in relation to the rectifying of male administrations and healing dissentions in particular Congregations and the like cases ; in such cases they declare and judge the nature of the offence . ( bbbb 2 ) Antap. p. 146. I was desired by Mr Ward to be present at that meeting ; but when the time came , neither I , nor any English Ministers , but them of Arnheim were called ; whether were the other Churches of our Nation or any of them , who could not but be offended , as them of Amsterdam , Hague , Vt●ick , Leyden , Delph , called in by Arnheim , or by the Church at Roterdam to joyn in the hearing and trying of that businesse ? or did they send Messengers , or was it onely agitate by two Ministers , and two Messengers of the Church of Arnheim , one Church only , Arnheim to Roterdam ● one to one , both equall . The Sub-Committee for Accommodation Prop. 8. Some of them doe desire , that the effect of that which hereafter followeth , may be for explanations sake inserted , viz. That the Elders and Brethren of such Congregations in case they finde any thing too hard for themselves , or have any controversie among themselves , may have liberty to advise with any of these select Elders and others in the Province joyntly or apart , or with the Elders of any other Churches , for the determining and composing the controversie , or resolving that difficulty . ( cccc ) Bastwicks Independency second part . Postscript , p. 6.7 . They professed that they had rather have the Government of the Prelates then the Presbyteriall , and protest that before Presbyters shall rule over them , they will joyn with Prelaticall Priests , for the re-establishing of the Hierarchy . ( dddd ) Vide supra ( rrr ) . ( eeee ) Apol. Nar. p. 17. What farther Authority there is of one or many sister Churches towards another whole Church or Churches offending , we doe not yet see ; and likewise we doe yet suppose that this principle of submission of Churches that miscarry unto other Churches offended , together with this other , that it is a command from Christ injoyned to Churches that are finally offended , to denounce such a sentence of Non-Communion , and withdrawing from them whilst impenitent , as unworthy to hold forth the name of Christ ; these principles are mutuall duties as strictly injoynd them by Christ as any other . ( ffff ) Vide supra , Chap. 2. ( EEEEE ) . ( gggg ) Theomachia , p. 37. Concerning other civill meanes for the suppression and restraint of these spirituall evills , errours , heresies , &c. as Imprisonment , Banishment , Interdictions , Finings , &c. Both reason and experience concurre in this demonstration , that such fetters as these put upon the feet of errours and heresies to secure and keep them under , still have proved wings whereby they raise themselves the higher in the thoughts and minds of men , and gaine an opportunity of further propagation . ( hhhh ) Ibid. p. 49.50 . To hold that the persons so elected ( the members of the House of Commons , chosen by men unworthy , and strangers to the power of godlinesse ) have a power by vertue of such nomination or election , to enact Lawes and Statutes in matters of Religion , and to Order under mulcts and penalties , how men shall worship and serve God , as it is a meanes to awaken the eye of jealousie upon them , and so is seven times more destructive unto and undermining , not only of their power , but of their honour peace , and safty also , then any thing that is found in the way so ill intreated ; so is it the settling upon the electors of such persons , I meane upon the promiscuous multitude of the Land , a greater power then ever Iesus Christ himselfe had , at least then ever he exercised . ( iiii ) Vide supra , ( s ) . ( kkkk ) Vide supra , Chap. 4. ( BB ) . ( llll ) Plaine-dealing , p. 39. Marriages are solemnized and done by the Magistrates and not by the Ministers . ( mmmm ) Miltons Doctrine of divorce , p. 6. That indisposition , unfitnesse or contrariety of mind arising from a cause in nature , unchangeable , hindring and ever likely to hinder the maine benefits of conjugall society which are solace and peace , is a greater cause of divorce then naturall frigidity , especially if there be no children , and that there be mutuall consent . Ibid. p. 15. God himselfe commands in his Law more then once , and by his Prophet Malachy , as the best Translations read . That he who hates , let him divorce , that is , he who cannot love , Ibid. p. 16. He who can receive nothing of the most important helps in marriage , being thereby disabled to return that duty which is his , with a cleare and hearty countenance , and thus continues to grieve whom hee would not , and is no lesse grieved , that man ought even for loves sake and peace to move divorce ; it is a lesse breach of wedlock to part with wise and quiet consent betimes , then still to profane that mystery of joy and union , with a polluting sadnesse and perpetuall distemper , Ibid. p. 63. Only these persons are joyned by God , whose minds are fitly disposed and enabled to mantaine a cheerfull conversation to the solace and love of each other ; the rest whom either disproportion or deadnesse of spirit or something distastfull and averse in the immutable bent of nature renders unconjugall , errour may have joyned , but God never joyned against the meaning of his own Ordinance ; and if he joyned them not , then there is no power above their own consent to hinder them from unjoyning when they cannot reap the soberest ends of being together in any tolerable sort , Ibid. p. 76. The freedome and eminence of mans creation , gives him to be a Law in this matter to himselfe , being the head of the other sex which was made for him ; whom therefore though he ought not to injure , yet neither should he be forced to retaine in society to his own overthrow , nor to heare any judge therein above himselfe , it being also an unseemly affront to the modesty of that sex , to have her unpleasingnesse and other concealements bandied up and down , and aggravated in open Court by these hired masters of tongue-fence . ( nnnn ) Williams Paper . I thought good to let you see some particulars wherein I could not close , nor goe along with them . First , that it is lawfull for a woman who sees into the mystery of Christ , in case her husband will not goe with her , to leave her husband and follow the Lords House ; for the Church of God is a Christians home where shee must dwell ; and where the Saints are , there is the Lords house ; and in so doing , she leaves not her husband , but her husband forsakes her : The odiousnesse of this point was further manifested unto me by the speech of Ezekiel Hollimers wife saying that she counted her selfe but a widow . ( oooo ) Plaine-dealing , p. 21. They call the dayes of the weeke , the first , second , third , fourth , fifth , sixth , and seventh which is Saturday ; also the Moneths beginning at March , by the names of the first , second , and so forth to the twelfth , which is February ; because they would avoid all memory of Heathenish and Idols names . ( pppp ) Ans . to the 32. quest . p. 77. For settled and stinted maintenance , there is nothing done that way among us except from year to year , because the conditions of Ministers may vary , and of the Church to which they do belong ; neither do we know any such thing to be appointed by Christ our Lord for the maintenance of the Ministry in these dayes ; the bringing in of settled endowments and eminent Preferments into the Church , hath been the corruption , and to some the destruction of such as lived by them , both Church-Officers and Church-members . ( qqqq ) Cottons Way , p. 38. The Deacons were elected , and ordained for the serving at Tables , to wit , the serving of all these Tables which pertained to the Church to provide for , which are the Lords Table ; the Tables of the Ministers or Elders of the Church , and the Tables of the poore Brethren , whither of their own body , or strangers , for the maintaining whereof we doe not appoint them to goe up and down to collect the benevolences of abler brethren ; but as the Apostles received the oblations of the brethren brought and laid down at their feet , and thereby made distribution as the use of the Church required , so the Deacons receive the oblations of the brethren every Lords day , brought unto them and laid down before them , and distribute the same as the need of the Church doth require . ( rrrr ) Ibid. ( ssss ) Plaine-dealing , p. 19. At some other places they make a rate upon every man as well within as not of the Church , residing with them , towards the Churches occasions ; and others are beholding now and then to the generall Court to study wayes to enforce the mantenance of the Ministry . ( tttt ) Antap. p. 276. Have you not carried a greater port then most of the godly Ministers in the City or Countrey ? have not some of you the prime Lectures of the City and other good places of advantage and profit ? besides , what some of you have from your own Churches . Vide supra Chap. 4. ( wwww ) Bastwicks Independency , p. 142.143 . It is well known and can sufficiently be proved that godly Christians of holy conversation , against whom they had no exception either for doctrine or manners , and who offered themselves to be admitted members upon their own conditions , and yet were not suffered to be joyned members , onely because they were poore ; and this very reason was given them for their not-admission , that they would not have their Church over-burdened with poore , Ibid. It was replyed , that the Congregation of which he was Pastor ▪ consisted of great Personages , Knights , Ladies , and rich Merchants and such people , as they being but poore , could not walk so sutably with them ; wherefore he perswaded them to joyn themselves with some other Congregation among poore people , where they might better walk , and more confortably , in fellowship with them . ( xxxx ) Plaine-dealing , p. 16. The Pastor begins with solemn prayer continu●ing about a quarter of an houre , the Teacher then readeth and expoundeth a Chapter , then a Psalme is sung which ever one of the ruling Elders dictates ; after that the Pastor preacheth a Sermon , and sometimes ex tempore exhortes , then the Teacher concludes with prayer and a blessing . ( yyyy ) Cottons Way , p. 66. First , then when we come into the Church according to the Apostles direction , 1 Tim. 1. We make prayers and intercessions , and thanksgivings for our selves and all men . ( zzzz ) I have heard the chiefe of our Brethren maintaine this publikely , and I understand it is the practice of some of them in the City . ( aaaaa ) Cottons Catechisme , p. 6. Where there bee more Prophets besides the Elders , they may Prophesie two or three if the time permit , the Elders calling to them , whither in the same Church or others , if they have any word of exhortation to the people to say on . ( bbbbb ) Ibid. And for the bettering of a mans selfe or others , it may be lawfull for either young or old , save only for women , to aske questions from the mouth of the Prophets . ( ccccc ) Answer to the 32 quest . p. 78. Some think the people have a liberty to aske their questions publikely for their better satisfaction upon very urgent and weighty cause , though even this is doubted of by others , and all judge the ordinary practice of it not necessary ; but if it be not meekly and wisely carried , to be inconvenient if not utterly unlawfull ; and therfore such asking of questions is seldom used in any Church among us , and in most Churches never . ( ddddd ) Anatom . p. 26. In the matter of singing of Psalms they differ not only from us , but are also at variance among themselves , some thinking it unlawfull for any to sing but he who preacheth ; and this hath been the late practice at Arnheim : others thinking it unlawfull for women to sing in the Congregation ; hence some women at Rotterdam doe not sing ; I heare also they think it unfit for any at all in such times of the Churches trouble as this . ( eeeee ) Ibid. ( fffff ) Vide supra Chap. 4. ( SS 1. ) ( ggggg ) If the question be of joyning in some few selected prayers read by an able and faithfull Minister out of the book , as of the one side we are tender of imputing sinnes to these that so joyne . Vide infra ( hhhhh ) . ( hhhhh ) To that part of the Directory which recommends the use of the Lords Prayer they did enter no dissent : an Answer to the 32 Questions p. 55. By a Liturgie and forme of prayer , we suppose you meane not a forme of private prayer , composed for the help of the weaker : as for a forme of prayer in generall , we conceive your meaning cannot be of that ; for it is evident that many Preachers constantly use a set forme of prayer of their owne making before their Sermons , with whom the people refuse not to joyne , ibid. p. 59. Wee acknowledge the Lords Prayer , and other formes set downe in Scripture , may be lawfully used as prayers , due cautions being observed . Cottons pouring out of the spirit p. 10. Not that I would discourage any poore soule from praying on a Book , for I think as we may sing Psalms on a Book , so we may in some cases pray on a Book . ( iiiii ) Vide supra ( s ) . Also see the Petition of the Inhabitants of the Colony of the Sommer Islands p. 2. Our children die unbaptized , our selves are deprived of the Lords Supper , our daughters cannot be given in marriage . ( kkkkk ) Plain Dealing p. 40. At New Plymouth Mr Chancey stands for dipping in Baptism only necessary . ( lllll ) Cottons Catechism p. 4. What manner of men hath God appointed to be received as members of his Church ? Answ . Such as doe willingly offer themselves first to the Lord , and then to the Church , by confessing of their sins , &c. ( mmmmm ) This wee heare is their ordinary practice at London . ( nnnnn ) Vide supra Chap. 4. ( Q ) . ( R ) . ( ooooo ) Vide supra ibid. ( ppppp ) This is the Apologists common profession . ( qqqqq ) This also they professe as a cleare consequent of the former . ( rrrrr ) Cottons way p. 68. The Lords Supper we administer for the gesture to the people sitting , according as Christ administred it to his Disciples sitting Matth. 20.26 . who also made a symbolicall use of it to teach the Church their majority over their Ministers in some cases , and their Iudiciall authority , as Cosessors with him at the last Iudgement , Luk. 22.27 . to 30. ( sssss ) For this the Apologists did plead as much and as sharply as any . ( ttttt ) I have heard some of their chiefe men discourse publikely enough to this purpose . ( wwwww ) Cottons Catechism p. 10. The body of the Church hath power from Christ to enquire , and heare , and assist in the judgement of all publike scandals . ( xxxxx ) Vide supra Chap. 4. ( TT ) . ( yyyyy ) Vide supra Chap. 6. ( tt ) . ( zzzzz ) Answer to the 32 Quest . p. 61. If it appeare , they who dissent from the major part , are factiously or partially carried , the rest labour to convince them of their errour by the rule ; if they yeeld , the consent of all comfortably concurreth in the matter ; if they still continue obstinate , they are admonished , and so standing under censure , their vote is nullified . ( aaaaaa ) Ibid. If the difference still continue , the sentence is still demurred even till other Churches have beene consulted with ; if the Church or the Elders should refuse the Testim●ny of other Churches according to God , they will deny them the right hand of Fellowship &c. ( bbbbbb ) Short story p. 32. Then M●stris Hutchinson kept open house for all commers , and set up two Lecture dayes in the week ; when they usually met at her house three or fourscore persons , the pretence was to repeat Sermons ; but when that was done , she would comment upon the Doctrines , and interpret all passages at her pleasure ; she did lay all that opposed her , being neare all the Elders and most of the faithfull Christians in this Countrey , under a Covenant of works to advance her Master-piece of immediate revelations ; wherin she had not failed of her aime to the utter subversion both of Churches and civill State , if the Lord had not prevented it . Ibid. p. 34. What say you to your weekly publike meetings ? Answ . There were such meetings in use before I came ; we began it with five or six , and though it grew to more in future time , yet being tolerated at the first , I knew not why it might not continue . The Courts reply , There were private meetings indeed , and are still in many places , of some few ne●ghbours ; we allow you to teach younger women privately , and upon occasion ; but that gives no warrant for such set meetings for that purpose , neither do yee teach them that which the Apostle commands , to keep at home . ( cccccc ) Apologet. Nar. p. 19. To the Magistrate we give as much and , a● we think , more then the principles of the Presbyteriall Government will suffer them to yeeld . ( dddddd ) Williams paper , Prop. 2. That the Saints are not to submit to the powers of the world or worldly powers , and that the powers and governments of the world have nothing to doe with them for civill misdemeanors ; these Governours must keep in their owne spheare , as Whales , not to govern Whales , but other fishes ; Lions not to governe Lions , but the beasts of the forrest ; Eagles , not to governe Eagles , but the other foules of the ayre . ( eeeeee ) Mr Williams related to me , that Mistris Hutchinson ( with whom he was familiarly acquainted , and of whom he spake much good ) after she had come to Rid Island , and her husband had beene made Governour there , she perswaded him to lay downe his Office upon the opinion which newly she had taken up of the unlawfulnesse of Magistracy . ( ffffff ) Bloody Tenet p. 135. Williams sets down these words of Cottons modell , The proper meanes whereby the civill power may and should attaine its end , are only politicall , and principally these five : First , the erecting and establishing what forme of civill Government may seem in wisedome most meet according to the generall rules of the Word and state of the people : upon these words Williams comments thus ; from this grant I inferre that the Soveraign originall and foundation of civill power lies in the people , whom they must needs meane by the civill power distinct from the Government set up : and if so that a people may erect and establish what forme of Government seems to them most meet for their civill condition , it is evident that such Governments as are by them erected and established , have no more power , nor for no longer time , then the civill power or people consenting and agreeing shall betrust them with . This is cleare , not only in reason , but in the experience of all Common-weals where the people are not deprived of their naturall freedome by the power of Tyrants . How right this Commentary is , Mr Cottons own words will declare , set downe p. 140. In a free State no Magistrate hath power over the Bodies , Goods , Lands , Liberties of a free people , but by their free consent ; and because free men are not free Lords of their owne estates , but are only stewards under God ; therefore they may not give their free consents to any Magistrate to dispose upon their Bodies , Lands and Liberties at large as themselves please , but as God the Soveraigne Lord of all pleases ; and because the Word is a perfect rule , as well of righteousnesse as of holinesse , it will be therefore necessary that neither the people give consent , nor that the Magistrate take power , but according to the lawes of the Word . ( gggggg ) Vide supra Chap. 5. E. ( hhhhhh ) Bastwicks Independency second part . Postscript p. 65. It may evidently appeare , that all the projects of the Independents in getting prime places by Sea and Land , and in the Armies , and in the Townes , Cities , Forts , and Castles , and all other places , and in all Committees , is only for the advancement and fomenting of their Faction : and this I conceive to be the only cause of all the linsie-woolsie Committees through the Kingdom . ( iiiiii ) Williams Examination pag. 4. After my publike triall , one of the most eminent Magistrates stood up and spoke ; Mr Williams , said he , holds forth that it is not lawfull to call a wicked person to sweare , to pray , as being actions of Gods worship . ( kkkkkk ) Vide supra Chap. 3. TT . WW . AAA . ( kkkkkk 2 ) Lieutenant Generall Cromwells Letter to the Parliament from Bristoll ; As for being united in formes commonly called uniformity , every Christian for peace sake would study and doe as farre as Conscience would permit ; and from Brethren , in things of the minde , we look for no compulsion but that of Light and Reason ; in other things God has put the sword into the Parliaments hands for the terrour of evill doers , and the praise of them that doe well ; if any plead exemption from it , he knowes not the Gospell . ( llllll ) Vide supra Chap. 2. ( HHHHH ) , ( IIIII ) ( KKKKK . ) ( mmmmmm 1 ) Vide supra ibid. ( mmmmmm 2 ) Vide infra ( mmmmmm 3. ) ( mmmmmm 3 ) Cottons Modell of power in the Bloody Tenet p. 140. The Magistrate in making Lawes about civill and indifferent things in the Common-wealth ; First , he hath no power given him of God to make what Lawes he pleases , either in restraining from or constraining to the use of indifferent things ; because that which is indifferent in its nature , may sometimes be inexpedient in its use , and consequently unlawfull : it is a prerogative proper to God to require obedience of the sons of men , because of his Authority and Will. It is an evill speech in some , that in some things the will of the Law , not the reason of it , must be the rule of Conscience to walk by : and that Princes may forbid men to seek any other reason but their authority , yea when they command men frivola & dura ; and therefore it is the duty of the Magistrate in all Lawes about indifferent things , to shew the reasons , not only the will ; to shew the expediency as well as the indifferency of things of that nature ; and because the judgement of expedient and inexpedient things , is often difficult and diverse , it is meet that such Lawes should not proceed without due consideration of the rules of expediency set downe in the Word , which are these three ; First , the rule of Piety , that they may make for the glory of God , 1 Cor. 10.31 . Secondly , the rule of charity , that no scandall come thereby to any weak Brother . 1 Cor. 8.13 . Thirdly , the rule of Charity , that no man be forced to submit against his Conscience , Rom. 14 ▪ 14 , 23. ( nnnnnn 1 ) Vide supra Chap. 2. ( KKKKK . ) ( nnnnnn 2 ) Cottons Modell in the Bloody Tenet p. 140. The Magistrate hath power to publish and apply such civill Lawes in a State as either are exprest in the Word of God , in Moses Judicials ; to wit , so farre as they are of generall and morall equity , and so binding all Nations in all ages ; or else to be deducted by way of generall consequence and proportion from the Word of God. ( nnnnnn 3 ) Ibid. p. 118. A strange modell of a Church and Common-wealth after the Mosaicall and Jewish patterne , framed by many able , learned and Godly hands , which wakens Moses from his unknown grave , and denies Iesus yet to have seen the earth . ( oooooo ) Plaine Dealing p. 23. The Ministers give their votes in all elections of Magistrates . ( pppppp ) Ibid. p. 25. The Ministers advise in making of Laws , especially Ecclesiastick , and are present in Courts , and advise in some cases criminall , and in framing of fundamentall Lawes . Ibid. p. 27. A draught of a body of fundamentall Lawes , according to the Iudiciall lawes of the Iewes , hath been contrived by the Ministers and Magistrates , and offered to the Generall Court to be established and published to the people . ( qqqqqq ) Cottons third viall p. 8. In old time , if a man playd the false Prophet , the Lord judged him to death ; and so in the New Testament , as in the Old he condemnes all such to death ; it is a Law Deut. 13. That false Prophets who did fundamentally pervert Religion , should not live ; if high Treason against Princes on earth justly be punished by death , verily this is as dishonourable to the Prince of all Princes ; that whole 13 of Deut. is spent about the seducing of false Prophets , and he puts a threefold gradation ; if he be a Prophet ; Therfore never so seemingly holy by his place and gifts , he shall surely be put to death : if there be never so many that shall joyne , if a whole City shall joyne together in such a course , thou shalt rise against it and destroy the City , and burne it with fire , and leave not a stone upon a stone . Ibid. p. 12. The third reason is taken from the just desert of soule-murther ; there is none of all these Priests , or Iesuites , or Hereticks , but they worry and devoure the soules of Gods people ; and this murther of souls is justly a capitall crime , as Moses said before : if they thrust thee from thy God , let not thine eye spare such kind of corrupters . Ibid. p. 16. Are not Moses morall Lawes of perpetuall equity , and therfore to be observed in all ages ? Is not murther of soules as damnable now as then ? a wonder that such f●ivolous interpretations should come in the hearts of men , to hinder the free passage of the Justice of God on such notorious offenders . Cottons third viall p. 8. on the 22 of Joshua , when the two Tribes and an half set up an Altar by Iordan , although they thought not to bring in an other object of worship ▪ but another manner of worship ; yet the other Tribes would have cut them off if they had found another Altar for worship : he is the same God , and h●s zeale is as deeply provoked against the like kinde of vitiousnesse now as ever he was then , Ibid. p. 17. A soule that sinneth of ignorance , may be pardoned ; but if he shall continue obstinate , were it a City or a Tribe , they shall not suffer such in a Countrey ; but you will say that the tares and wheat may grow together ; grant ; but it is not said that briers and thornes should grow up with them , Ibid. p. 19. You see the first use is to justifie the equity of such capitall punishments upon Priests and Iesuites , and consequently on such who bring in other Gods , or another way of worshiping the true God then that wherein we may enjoy fellowship with the true God. Cottons third Viall , p. 19.20 . For a second use , it may serve to reprove the carnall and sinfull foolish pity that is found in any estate that shall bee sparing to spill such blood of the Priests and Iesuites ; the Lord loatheth this kind of lenity and indulgency ; cursed is he that doth the work of the Lord negligently ; and cursed is he that keepeth back his sword from blood , when the Lord calls us to sheath the sword of Authority on such kinde of Delinquents , a State shall be separate from God for these tolerations . ( rrrrrr ) Vide supra , Chap. 6. ( s ) . ( ssssss ) Goodwins Theomachy ; also Chap. 5 ( G ) . ( H ) . and Chap. 6. ( kkkkkk 2 ) . also Chap. 6. ( bbbb ) . ( hhhh ) . CHAP. VII . It is unjust scrupulosity to require satisfaction of the true grace of every Church-Member . HAving set down the Proceedings and Tenets of the Brownists and Independents , so farre as my slender reading of some of their writings and observation of their wayes have brought to my memory at this time : Before I leave them , it will not bee unfit to examine the truth of their chiefe principles whereby they have disturb'd the Church , and will continue so to doe untill they have changed their minde . For shortnesse , I will pitch but upon foure grounds which the Independents have learned in the Brownists schoole : The first , concerning the members of a Congregation ; The next three concerning their power . We will first consider whither the members of every particular Church bee obliged at their first admission to shew to the whole Congregation convincing signs of their Regeneration and true grace . Secondly , whether the people of a Congregation have a power of voycing in every Ecclesiastick affaire . Thirdly , whether the power of the Congregation be absolute and Independent ? Fourthly , whither every man who hath a gift though not an office , hath power to preach and prophesie publickly . The first question is of the grearest importance : The Independents would gladly dissemble their minde therein ; to this day they have declined all solemn debate upon it , they speak as if they were either fully or very neere accorded with us , professing their utter dislike of the Brownists unreasonablenesse herein ; but I professe this hath alwayes seemed to me their capitall and fundamentall difference , the only cause of their separation from us , and wherein if wee could either agree or accommodate , there would be a faire possibility of accord in all things else , at least so farre as to be united in one and the same Church ; but this difference is the great partition wall , which so long as it stands , will force them to continue their intolerable practice of separating from all the Reformed Churches in the world , and that for fewer and more unjust causes then any who ever did carry the name of a Separatist , to this day did pretend . This seemes to bee the reason why both Apollonius and Spanheim very excellent Divines , have begun their dispute with this question . For the stating of the controversie , consider how it stands betwixt us and the Independents at this time ; the Brownists for their separation were wont to alledge the impurity of our worship , the corruption of our Government , the open prophanesse of the most in our Congregations . By the mercy of God , the first is fully Reformed , at least so farre according to the minde of our brethren , that they have entred no dissenting vote to any one passage of the Directory for worship : The Government also is so farre cleared in the Assemblie , that they have entered their dissent from no part of it , except that alone which concerns the Iurisdiction of Presbyteries and Synods ; and their dissent herein , might and still may well be so carried as not to occasion any breach . But the third is the great cause of division , wherein they much out-runne the Brownists ; for they did never offer to separate upon this ground alone ; and the matter whereupon here they stumbled , was only open profanenesse and that incorrigible , either through want of power or want of care to remedy it . If the profanenesse was not open and visible , or if the Church had her full power to execute discipline , and according to her power made conscience really to censure scandalls : These things as I conceive , would have abundantly satisfied the Brownists , and cured their separation . But the Independents now doe draw them up much higher then they were wont to stand ; They teach them to stumble not only at open profanenesse , but at the want of true grace ; yea , at the want of convincing signes of Regeneration : They teach them to require not only a power and care in the Church to censure such profanenesse , but also a power in every member of the Church to keep out all others with whom they are not satisfied in the truth of their grace ; So the question is not as usually it is made , of the quality of the members of the Church , but of the necessity to separate from that Church wherein we are not satisfied by convincing signs of the true faith and grace of every member at their first admission . Wee grant it is earnestly to be wished , and all lawfull meanes would diligently bee used both by Pastors and people , to have all the members of a Church most holy and gratious , and what ever lawfull overture our Brethren can invent for this end , we with all our heart will embrace it , or else be content to beare much blame ; We grant also , that it is the duty of Church-Governours to keep off every scandalous person from profaning to their own damnation the holy things of the Lord ; and that it is the duty of these Governours not only to suspend from the holy Table all scandalous persons but farther to cast all such out of the Church without respect of persons in the case of obstinacy , when by no meanes they can bee brought to satisfactory repentance ; we grant also , that Church-Governours deficient in these duties , ought themselves to be disciplined by the rod of Church-Censures ; these things were never controverted . But the question is , whether because of the admission of some to Church-membership who have not given satisfaction to every member of the Church in the point of their reall Regeneration , a Church may lawfully be separated from , as vitiously constitute , for that essentiall defect in its very matter ? Our Brethrens constant and resolute practice albeit gilded over with many faire words , maketh this to be the cleare state of the question , against which I reason thus : First , What to Moses and the Prophets was not a sufficient cause of separation from the Churches of their time , is not a sufficent cause for us to separate from the Churches in our times . But , want of satisfaction by convincing signes of the true grace of many members of the Church , was not a sufficient cause for Moses and the Prophets to separate in their times . Ergo : The minor is cleare and uncontroverted ; for Moses and the Prophets were so farre from separating from the Churches of their dayes for want of assurance of the true grace of every person in these Churches that they remained still to their dying day in the bosome of these Churches , comumnicating with them in the Word , Prayer , Sacraments and Sacrifices , though they were assured of the evident wickednesse of the most of their fellow-members . Moses knew the Body of Israel to bee a crooked and perverse generation : Isaiah tells the Iewes that they were another Sodom ; Ieremy sheweth that Israel in his dayes was uncircumcised in heart , no better then Moab , Ammon , or Edom ; Micah , that the godly in his time were very rare as the summer fruits , as the grapes after the Vintage ; of this truth all the Prophets are full ; yet for all this , none of the Prophets did ever think of a separation . All the difficulty then is in the major , which thus we prove : The Church in the dayes of Moses and the Prophets , was one and the same with the Church of our dayes : The House of God , the body of Christ , the Elect and redeemed people , the holy Nation , the peculiar treasure and spouse of the Lamb : The difference of the true Church in any age is at most but in accidentall circumstances , and not in any essentials : so what ever morall evill doth defile the Church now , and is a just cause of ejection or separation , that must be so at all times , especially , under the old Testament , where all the Ceremoniall differences that are alledged betwixt the Church then and now , make for the strengthning of the Argument ; for then the causes of separation were stricter and smaller ; a little Ceremoniall pollution would then have kept out of the sanctuary ; much more a morall uncleannesse would have made the sacrifice abominable . If therefore at that time the matter in hand was no cause of separating from the Church , much lesse can it be so now , when God hath given a greater liberty to the Church in her majority , and when Christians are not so easily infected by their neighbours sinnes as of old in the dayes of the Churches infancy they were ; Idolatry , false doctrine , open profanenesse , were then most abominable , and more terribly punished then now , by the totall destruction of whole Cities and Countries wherein they were entertained ; also the duty of mutuall inspection and admonition , the contempt whereof is made the grand cause of separation , was most clearly enjoyned in the Old Testament . What here is replyed , that all separation from the Iewish Church was simply impossible , because then there was no other Church in the whole earth to goe to : We answer , that the Replyers themselves will say that a separation must be where there is just cause , and where a person cannot abide without pollution and sin , although there be no other Church for him to go to ; for they make it better for men to live alone separate from all , then to abide in any Church where they cannot live without the participation of their neighbours sinnes . We answer further , That it was easie for the godly under the Law to have joyned together in the service of God , and to have excluded the wicked thence ; and whereas it is said that this could not bee done , because the Censure of Excommunication was not then in being ; We answer , the Gospel makes it cleare ; That casting out of the Synagogue which was reall Excommunication , was frequent in the Old Testament ; as also the keeping off from the service with a great deale of circumspection all who were unfit by any legall pollution , much more by any known morall uncleannesse ; Kings themselves when polluted , were removed from the Altar and put out of the Sanctuary . Again , I reason thus ; That which moved not Christ and his Apostles to separate from the Church of their time , is no cause to us of separation ; but , want of satisfaction by convincing signes of the true grace of every member of the Church , was to them no cause of separation from the Churches of their times , Ergo. The major is cleare , except we desire a better pattern for our practices then Christ and his Apostles ; what ever carrieth us beyond their line , must be high presumption and deep hypocrisie . The minor is cleare , by many Scriptures ; the Scribes and Pharisees were a generation of vipers ; Ierusalem worse then Sodom and Gomorrah ; Corasin and Bethsaida was worse then Tyrus and Sidon , and to be cast lower in Hell then these : yet the Lord did not give over to preach , to pray , to go to the Temple with them . Iudas when a declared Traytor , did not scarre him , nor any of his company from the Sacrament . After he went from the Table , when his wickednesse was revealed that a Devill was in him ; yet none of the Apostles offered to cast themselves out of the body because this wicked member was not cut off . Many members of the Apostolick Churches were so farre from convincing signes of true grace , that the works of the flesh were most evident in their life . In the Corinthians , fundamentall errours , open Idolaty , grievous scandall , bitter contentions , profanation of the Lords Table . In the Galatians , such errours as destroyed grace , and made Christ of none effect . In the Church of Ephesus , of Laodicea , and the other golden Candlesticks , divers members were so evidently faulty , that the Candlestick is threatned to be removed ; yet from none of these Churches did any of the Apostles ever separate , nor gave they the least warrant to any of their Disciples to make a separation from any of them . A third Argument . The want of that which never was to bee found in any Church , is no just cause of separation : But satisfaction by convincing Arguments of the true grace of every member , was never to be found in any Church . The major is unquestionable for what is not , cannot have any operation ; non entis nulla sunt accidentia . The minor is demonstrable ; from the nature of a visible Church , it is such a body whose members are never all gracious , if we believe Scripture ; It is not like the Church invisible , the Church of the Elect. It is an heterogeneous body , the parts of it are very dissimilar , some chaffe , some corne , some wheat , some tares ; a net of fishes good and bad ; a house wherein are vessels of honour and dishonour , a fold of sheep and goats , a tree of green and withered branches , a table of guests , some with , some without a wedding garment ; in a word , every visible Church is a society wherein many are called , few chosen ; except therefore we will alter the nature of all visible Churches whereof Scripture speaks , we must grant that in every Church there are some members which have no true grace ; and if so , how can they give convincing and satisfactory signes of that which is not to be found . Hypocrites may make a shew without , of that which is not within ; but shall we lay an obligation upon every hypocriticall member of a Church to be so eminently skilfull in the art of counterfeiting as to produce in the midst of his gracelesnesse , so cleare , so evident and satisfactory signes of his true grace , as may convince the hearts of every one of the Church that the thing is within the mans breast which certainly is not there ? The fourth Argument , The want of that which cannot reasonably be supposed of every member of a Congregation , is no just cause of separation from any Church ; but satisfaction &c. Ergo. The major is cleare ; for if the want of such satisfaction be a just cause of separation from the Church ; Then the presence of such a satisfaction is very requisite to be in every member , as a necessary meane to keep it in union with that Church . The minor , that such a satisfaction may not justly be supposed in every member of a Congregation ; for this would import these foure things , all which are unreasonable . First , that every member of a Congregation is to have power to try all its fellow-members , to let them in or hold them out , according as in this triall he is satisfied : This is a large limb of the Brownistick Anarchy , putting the key of Authority and Iurisdiction into the hand of every Church-member ; if all the Independents will defend this , let them speak it out plainly . Secondly , it requires a great deale of more ability in every member of every Church , then can be found in any mortall man : for not to speak of the impossibility of a grounded and certaine perswasion of true grace in the heart of an Hypocrite , who hath no grace at all : how is it possible to attaine unto any grounded certainty of true grace in the heart of any other man ? for the hid man of the heart , and the new name , are not certainly known to any but to such as have them . The grounds of a mans own certain perswasion , the act of his faith either direct or reflex , the witnesse of his conscience , or the seale of the spirit , cannot go without his own breast : all the demonstrations which can be made to another , are so oft found false , that in understanding men they can breed at most but a fallible opinion or a charitable hope , which is farre from any certainty either of sense or science , much more of faith or immediate revelation . Thirdly , it layeth a burthen unsupportable to the strongest , upon the conscience of every weak one ; they must ever be in perplexity and doubt what to do , whether to stay in the Church , or under the pain of sin to separate from it till they have accurately examined , and after all needfull triall attained to a full satisfaction and assurance of minde of the regeneration of every member , were they never so many of that Church whereunto he belongeth : The burden of such a task might break the back of the strongest Pastor , much more of a silly Lamb. Fourthly , this presupposeth that all Congregations must of new be gathered , and all their members admitted of new , which none may grant who minds not for the Independents pleasure at once to dissolve all the Reformed Churches , and to avow that every person though born in the true Church , within the Covenant of grace sealed in Baptism with the seale of God , religiously educated in the feare and knowledge of God , is notwithstanding without the Church , and no member of the body of Christ , till he be admitted to the Lords Supper . Ordinarily in all Chistendom persons are actuall members of the Church wherein they were borne of faithfull parents , baptised and Christianly educated , before they be admitted to the holy Table . The case and question of admitting members by a Congregation after all are convinced of the true grace of him who craveth membership among them , is but a new , rash , unjust case of the Independents , which will inferre the gathering of new Churches , the dissolution of all our old ones , and lay a high royall street for Anabaptism , excluding all our baptised children from Church-membership till they give personall satisfaction of their true grace , and enter into a formall expresse Covenant . I adde but one other reason ; No reall absurdity doth follow upon any divine truth ▪ but divers reall absurdities follow necessarily upon the ground of Separation in hand . Ergo , the ground of Separation in hand is no divine truth , but an evill errour . The major no man controverts ; for every true consequent is a stream that flowes out of the antecedent as its fountaine ; as the fountain is bitter or sweet , so are the streams ; from a true antecedent a false consequent by no force can be extorted ; if the consequent be rotten , it is a sure sign the antecedent is not sound . The absurd consequents I name for the proofe of the minor , are , First , That then it shall be necessary to separate from all the Churches that are this day in the world , except alone from these of the Independent way ; for no other Church doth so much as intend or assay to give assurance to every one of their members of the true grace of all the rest ; but on the contrary they teach such an endeavour to be both impossible and unreasonable . The absurdity of the consequent is so cleare , that I pursue it no farther then to this Dilemma ; If it be necessary to separate from all the Churches of the world but the Independents ; Then , all other Churches but theirs are false , or else it is lawfull to separate from Churches that are true ; but , neither of these will sound well in a Protestant eare . The second absurd consequent , That then it was necessary to separate from all other Churches that have been in any former time ; for not one of them ever , no not the greatest Schismaticks , the Novatians , the Donatists themselves did ever minde that every one of their members should so narrowly examine all their fellows , as to come to a certain perswasion of their reall regeneration . The third consequent , That then to the worlds end no Church anywhere can have any solid foundation ; for this principle is a mountain of quick-silver that rests not till all the Churches builded upon it be quite overthrown . The conviction of every members conscience of the true faith and grace of all their fellow-members , is so sandy a foundation , that nothing builded upon it can stand . What else hath broken in halfes , and quarters , and demi-quarters these separate Societies ? What made them of Amsterdam first break off from England , then from Holland , and all the Reformed , then among themselves once and the second time ? What made Smith at Leyden , after he had fallen off from England , next to leave the Brownists , and after the Anabaptists , till at last he broke off from all Christians to the Arrian heresie ? What else doth drive many of Old and of New-England , when they have run about the whole circle of the Sects , at last to break out into the newest way of the Seekers , and once for all to leap out of all Churches , betaking themselves to their devotions apart : here indeed it is , and no where else , where they come to a possibility of satisfaction of the inward estate of these in their way , that is of themselves alone . This is the reward of presumptuous errour ; it cannot rest when it hath led the seduced soule about the whole round of the fancies of the time , till at last it throw it out of all that is called or so much as pretended to be a Church . The reasons alledged for the opposite Tenet , may be seen in the Brownists Apology , also in Robinsons Iustification , in Cans necessity of Separation , in Barrows Discovery ; but for shortnesse we will only consider what is brought by Mr Cotton in his Way of the Churches ; for there , the best of the Brownists arguments are brought in the greatest lustre and strength which Mr Cotton thought meet to put upon them . Also what there is brought by Mr Cotton , is acknowledged by our Brethren as their judgement , without the haesitation of any marginall asterisk , which when they dissent or doubt , they professe to affix to some other passages of that book . The best form I can set on his first argument , is this ; If every member of each Church is not only in profession , but in sincerity and truth to be a Saint and faithfull ; then , the Officers and body of each Church must take triall , and be satisfied of the true faith and sanctification of every person before they receive him into the Church ; but , every member of each Church is not only in profession , but in sincerity and truth to be a Saint and faithfull ; Ergo , the Officers and body of each Church must take triall , and be satisfied of the true faith and sanctification of every person before they receive him into the Church . All the proofe is bestowed upon the minor from these Scriptures which make all the members of the Church to bee Saints by calling , and faithfull Brethren : the Church it selfe to be the body of Christ , the Temple of the holy Ghost , the spouse of Christ , the sons and daughters and children of God. We answer that no part of this argument is sound . The major , minor , and conclusion are vitious . First , the conclusion commeth not neare the question ; for were it granted , it concludes no more but a duty of the Church-officers and members to try and be satisfied about the state of these who are to bee received into the Church , but it hath no word of an other duty which is the point in question : It speaks nothing of a necessity to separate from a Church upon the neglect of the former duty ; this alone is the state of the present controversie , which neither is expressed nor by any consequence doth follow from any thing that is expressed in this conclusion : for suppose it were a duty laid by God upon every Church-Officer and member , to enquire accurately after the Faith and Sanctification of all to be received among them , and to expect satisfaction in their tryall ; yet I hope that every neglect of duty in the Church-Officers , much lesse in every Church-member , and least of all the want of successe of a duty truly performed , will not be found a just and necessary cause for every one to separate from a Church ; if all this be not expersly concluded , this arrow misseth the marke . Secondly , That which is expressed in the conclusion , pitcheth only upon one particular case , which the Reformed Churches neither do nor may acknowledge ; for it speaks only of admission of members upon their confession of sins . This fits well the practice of the Brownists , who suppose a necessity to dissolve the Reformed Churches that now are as vitiously constituted from their first beginning . They may seeme to have reason in their gathering of new Churches , to put their members to tryall before admission ; but the Reformed Churches who take themselves to be so farre true , that they need no dissolution or new erection , are not concerned in this case of admission ; for their members were borne in the Church , and had the Covenant sealed to them in Baptisme ; what tryall they take of their children when they admit them to the Lords Table , is no wayes for their admission to be members ; for this practice is a maine pillar of Anabaptisme ; and our brethrens engagement therein , is the ground of all their sympathy and symbolising with that Sect : So then the conclusion commeth short of the question , and toucheth not the Reformed Churches , but is builded on the pillars of rigid Separation and Anabaptisme , taking that for granted which no Reformed Church may admit , but upon hard termes ; no milder then the nullity and dissolution of all their Churches : that out of the rubbish , a new building may bee erected after the Separatists patterne . The major also is vitious ; for suppose the antecedent of it were true , yet there is no force therein to inferre the consequent ; be it so , that every Church-member ought to be so holy as you will ; yet , can this inferre the peoples power to try that holinesse which is the one halfe of the consequent ? Such a power in the people would make every one of them a Church-Governour , which none of the Reformed Churches , nor the halfe of the Separatists themselves will admit ; and they who doe plead for it , set it upon other pillars but no man I know deduceth it from any thing in the antecedent now in hand . For the rest of the consequent , the Officers satisfaction in the true and sincere grace of the members at their first admission , if it have any truth , yet it commeth too short of reason , and runnes also farre beyond the most rigid Separatists . If a tryall must be made of Church-members , why at their first admission alone and never after ? Is it not an ordinary case in all Churches , and as much among the Brownists and Independents as any other , that many who at first have been taken for truly regenerate , have thereafter fallen to such errours in judgement and such practices in life , as have given just ground to conclude the irregeneration of some , and to doubt the regeneration of others ? Now , if the uncertainty of regeneration , be a just cause to hold a man out of all Churches , is it not as just a cause to cast a man out of a Church , when by doctrine or life , this uncertainty appears , which at first was covered ? yet none of our Brethren affirm that the uncertainty of regeneration , nor the certainty of irregeneration is a just ground to cast any man out of the Church who once is come in . The consequent also runs wide of the rigid Separatists ; for the holinesse they require , is expresly externall , which may stand with the internall wickednesse of hypocrites ; but the consequent speaks of inward sincerity contradistinguished from all outward professions . The Minor is the part of the Argument which they labour to fortifie , knowing the greatest weight to lie upon it : We do deny it as a very dangerous errour ; every member of a visible Church is not in truth and sincerity a Believer and Saint : This is against Scripture and all experience in every visible Church ; all who are called are not chosen : In the field of God there are tares among the wheat , in his fold goats amongst the sheep , in his net bad fishes among the good , in his house vessels for dishonour , not for honour only . In the best Churches of the Scripture , we have too many bad members , Iudas , Ananias and Saphira , Simon Magus , Hymeneus and Philetus , Demas and the like ; They dare not deny but some gracelesse hypocrites are in their best Congregations ; and if they should deny it , the frequent out-breaking of their enormities to the eyes of the world would extort their confession . The proofes they bring , come not up to the Question ; that in the first of the Corinthians , first and second , sanctified in Christ , and called to bee Saints ; if yee understand it of an outward calling alone , it is not pertinent ; if of an inward efficacious call , it is true not of every member , but of some onely , and is attributed to the whole Church of Corinth indefinitely , because of these some , who truly were elected , justified , and sanctified ; but that this was not true of all and every one of that Church , is cleare by the Apostles complaint of many among them ; of some for Incest , of others for injurious defrauding of their neighbours , of some for carnall Schismes , of others for prophane drunkennesse at the Lords Table it selfe , of others for fundamentall errours . The first of the Gal. 2 . v . hath nothing sounding toward the present question ; but the fourth verse is brought by the Brownists to something neare it ; that Christ had dyed for the Galatians sinnes and separated them from this present evill world ; if this import any true grace , yet it may not bee applyed to every member of that Church ; for in the words following , the Apostle beareth witnesse that sundry of them were removed to another Gospel ; that they were foolish and bewitched to rebell against the truth . The relation of the Church to the persons of the Trinity , that it is the body and Spouse of Christ , the Temple of the holy Ghost , the sonnes and daughters of the Father , must be understood as many such priviledges , of the universall and invisible Church ; or when any of them are to be applyed to a particular visible Church , they must be understood of that Church not according to every one , but only the living and gracious members thereof . That such priviledges of the Catholicke invisible Church when they are applyed to a particular visible Congregation , are to be understood according to this distinction of members , Robinson him selfe while yet in his rigid separation , grants it expresly . The places thus expounded , prove not the point ; for grant to every Congregation so high priviledges as you will , yet if they must be verified of that Congregation only according to some members , and not according to all ; if they be to be understood only of the Elect in that Congregation who have the sanctifying Spirit of Christ , not of many others who are dead in nature , and yet are such members who have right from God according to our Brethrens own Tenet , to perform Church acts , such as are the preaching of the Gospel , the celebration of the Sacraments , the admission of members , the execution of censures , with such authority from Christ , as makes all these acts truly valid for the comfort and salvation of the Elect ; they prove not the true grace of every person whom we must acknowledge to be a true member of a Church . If you will extend these places to every singular member of particular visible Churches , as indeed the Argument if it have any strength , doth import , the absurdity will be great ; for so it will carry to the Pelagianisme of Arminius in the extent of the true grace of God beyond the Elect , to all the members of a visible Church ; also to the totall and finall Apostacy of many who are the Temples of the holy Ghost , the members of Christ , the faithfull and sanctified children of God : For the Argument maketh every member of any visible Church to be such , & daily experience proves that many members of every visible Church are castawayes . Yea , the Argument drives further then any of the Arminians will follow ; for however , they extend the true and saving grace of God beyond the Elect members of a Church , yet none of them ever said that this sanctifying and saving grace must be in every person before they can bee admitted members of any Church ; For this is that grosse errour which the Independents have learned not so much from Arminius as Socinus , to put all men unconverted without the Church , that in this condition they may be converted by the preaching of private men , and if by Pastors , yet by their Preaching , not as Pastors , but as private men dealing with these who are none of their Flock , but without the Church . Neither doe the Socinians , so farre as I know , extend their Tenet thus farre , as to require all before they be members of the Church , to be truly regenerate , as if the only instrument of regeneration and conversion , were the preaching of private men without the Church : and the preaching of Pastors within the Church , did serve only for the continuing of the sence of justification and the encrease of sanctification , as being performed of purpose only unto these persons who at their first entrance into the Church while yet they were without and but comming in , have demonstrate the certainty of their enjoying these graces . The second Argument . God receives none to be members of the visible Church , but those who shall be saved : but the Stewards of Gods house may receive none but whom God doth receive : Ergo , the Stewards of Gods house may receive none to bee members of a visible Church but those who shall be saved . Answer . The Conclusion is subject to the most of the faults observed upon the conclusion of the former Argument , which I doe not repeat ; only consider that this conclusion beareth expresly that none may be members of a visible Church but these who shall be saved , and so who are truly Elect. We would not be deceived with their distinctions of inward and outward holinesse , of seeming and reall grace , of charitable and veritable discerning ; for this and the other Argument inferres flatly that no other must be received as members in a visible Church but such as first are tryed and found to bee really holy , and who shall be saved . We Answer therefore to the Minor , That it is evidently false for the Reasons which we brought upon the Minor of the former Argument . The place of the Acts brought for the proofe of it is detorted ; such as were to be saved were added to the Church ; is this indefinite proposition to be understood universally , that all who were to be saved were added to the Church ? the former Argument maketh this no necessary truth ; for if men must be justified , sanctified , and put in the way of salvation before they be added to the Church , then though they were never added to the Church , they may well bee saved . They would doe well here to remember their own ordinary practice , contrary to that which here they professe to be the way of God. Why doe they not adde to their Church all that are to be saved ? why exclude they many whom they grant to be truly gracious and Elect , upon this ground alone that they cannot approve of their Independency or Covenant ? Or suppose the proposition to be universall ; yet , must it be reciprocall and convertible ? Be it so , that all who were to be saved , were added to the Church : yet , must all who are added to the Church be saved ? This is an evident untruth . Will they that all the members of their Church must be saved ? or doe they think that all the persons of their Churches who shall not be saved , were never true members of their visible Church ? Iudas was made a member of the Apostolick society by Christ , and many men were brought into the visible Church by the Prophets and Apostles , who shall not be saved . Shall damnation and want of true grace cast them all out of the true Church , and take from them their power and right , to do the actions of a Church-member ? The third Argument . If it be put in any forme , will readily fall under the exceptions of the first ; but since the Author puts no forme upon it , I shall only consider its matter . It consists of the misapplication of three Scriptures , first of Peters Confession , Mat●h . 8. they alledge that such a profession of Faith as the Father reveales to particular persons , is the ground of a visible Church , and so who ever is a member of that Church , must both professe Faith , and have the Spirit to indite that profession . Answer , This is a strange Argument . For first , we may not admit that the Church founded upon the Rock is every particular visible Church : The priviledges of the Catholike and visible Church , which the Iesuites by all their wrestlings have never been able to extort from us for their Idoll of Rome , shall we throw them away upon every Independent Congregation ? how unstable Rocks these Congregations are , and how easily by small tentations shaken in pieces , themselves may remember . Secondly , the Rock whereupon the Church is builded , is Christ , whom Peter did confesse ; we may not make any mans profession , were it never so cleere and never so zealous , the foundation of the Church in such a fashion , that the ignorance or hypocrisie of any man may remove the foundation of any Church . Thirdly , shall no man be a member of a Church , till the holy Ghost dictate unto him such a confession of Faith as he did unto Peter ? if none but the Elect and those who are filled with the holy Ghost , may be members of Churches , the Anabaptists have won the field . However , what here is alledged , is not true of Peter himselfe who long before that confession was a member of the Church . The second place mis-applied , is the reproofe of the guest for his comming to the Lords Feast without the wedding-garment ; whereupon is inferrd the duty of the Church to hold out all who want the wedding-garment of true grace . Answ . This conclusion is not only beside , but against the Text , vers . 9.10 . the servants are commanded to invite as many as they could finde both good and bad ; they had no commission to hold out any for want of the wedding-garment , for that garment was within upon the soule unperceptible by any but his eye who searches the heart and the reynes . The Apostles in their search went not beyond a blamelesse profession ; and experience may teach our Brethren , that themselves are able to reach no farther , finding after all their triall so many in their purest Congregations whom time declares to want that garment . The third place mis-applyed , is the parable of the Tares , as if the Tares came into the Church by the sleepinesse of the servants . Answ . This also is a bold addition to Scripture : it is not said , while the servants sleeped , but while men sleeped , noting no negligence in men who did sleep when it was seasonable and necessary for them to sleep ; but only the secret and dark time of the night , or the secret , dark , and imperceptible way of Satan his working in hypocrites , and corrupting the Church . However , this part of the parable is no wayes argumentative ; for Christ in his full application toucheth not at all upon this circumstance ; but the maine scope of the parable declareth to us the nature of the visible Church upon earth , contrary to the argument in hand , That Christ doth not intend to have upon earth any Church wherein the Tares shall not be mixed with the wheat ; for if he did not finde in his wisedome the expediency of this administration , hee could in his power easily alter or prevent it . Their fourth argument is drawn from the second to Timothy , 3.5 . who have a form of Godlinesse , but deny the power of it , from such we must turne away . Ergo , who are not found to have positive and satisfactory signes of regeneration , ought not to be admitted members of any Church . Answ . The consequent is naught ; for the strength of it will lie in this proposition , Every professor who bringeth not demonstrative signes of his regeneration and true grace , is a man who hath the forme of godlinesse and denyeth the power thereof . How false this is , both the Text and our Brethrens practice will evidence . The Text puts it out of doubt , that the men whom the Apostle calls the denyers of the power of godlinesse , are persons openly scandalous and flagitious , as the verses both before and after doe demonstrate ; even such whom the Apostle describes , Tit. 1. abominable , disobedient , and to every good work reprobate . Now it is cleare that many professors who are not able to bring out any convincing signes of their regeneration , are notwithstanding free from all scandall ; and however many hypocrites can goe beyond them in making faire and satisfactory shewes to men : yet sundry of them may be the elect children of God , and really most gracious in his eyes , how unable or unwilling soever they be to make this much appeare to the world . Secondly , the men whom the Apostle speaks of , are to be cast out of the Church after their admission ; but our Brethren will not cast out all of whose regeneration they are not convinced , after once they are admitted ; for if so , Excommunication in every Church would become too frequent . Their fifth argument is this ; No hypocrite , none who at last will leave their first Love , are to be admitted in the Church ; for all such will ruine the Church , and procure the removing of the Candlestick : but all that cannot prove their regeneration convincingly , are such . Answ . This is a bold and rash argument , laying a necessity to exclude all hypocrites from the Church , and all such as may fall away from any degree of their first love . We answer then that the minor is very false ; for many gracious persons farre from hypocrisie , and free from all decay of their first love , may be unable to satisfie themselves or others in the certaine truth of their regeneration . But the major is more false , against the practise of Christ and the Apostles , who did alwayes receive divers hypocrites ; and our Brethren dare not deny that they do so also ; for their Churches consist not all of reall Saints . However the very Text alledged proveth our Tenet ; for Ephesus to Christ , there is a most true Church , notwithstanding their fall from their first Love , and his threatning of them with the removall of their Candlestick if they did not repent . Unto this fifth they subjoyne as appendices , two other arguments taken from the ancient types under the Law. The first , The stones in Solomons Temple were not laid rough in the building ; Ergo ▪ men irregenerate must not bee admitted members of a Christian Church . Answ . This is a wanton argument ; though the Temple might be a type of every Congregation : and the stones of Temple , of the members of a particular visible Church ; yet that the roughnesse of the stones should be a type of irregeneration , and above all , that the place of hewing these stones should be a type , and that argumentative , to inferre that the place of our vocation , regeneration , justification and sanctification must be without the Church ; and that it is necessary we be like a stone perfectly hewen before wee be laid in the Church building : this is a kinde of Ratiocination which solid divinity will not admit . The other typicall argument is this ; The porters excluded uncleane persons from the Temple ; therefore , the Officers ought to keep the irregenerate from the Church . Answ . There is no argumenting from symbolick types , except where the spirit of God in Scripture applies a type to such a signification and use . Where did our Brethren learne to make the porters of the Temple types of the Church-officers . Their people will not bee content to be cheated of the Keyes by such symbolizing . If they will make the Temple a type , not only of Christs body and the Church universall , but of every Congregation ; yet by what Scripture will they make legall uncleannesse typifie the estate of irregeneration ? And above all , how will they make the exclusion from the Temple for legall uncleanesse , a type of rejection from Church-membership for irregeneration ? Nothing more common then legall cleanesse in a person irregenerate , and legall uncleanesse in a person regenerate . Legall uncleanesse did never hinder any from Church-membership under the old Testament , albeit for a time it might impede their fellowship in some services ; but irregeneration did never hinder communion in any service . It is a question whether very scandalous sins did keep men ceremonially clean from the Temple and Sacrifices ; but out of all doubt irregeneration alone was never a bar to keep any from the most holy and most solemn services , whether of the Tabernacle or Temple . There are two other arguments couched in the conclusion of the debate . First , from the 3 of Matth. Iohn the Baptist excluded the Scribes and Pharisees and the profane people from his Baptism ; Ergo , the officers and body of the people should not admit irregenerate people to be members of the Church . Ans . The consequence is not good from Iohn the Baptist to all the officers and body of the people , nor from Baptism or any Sacrament to Church-membership , nor from the Scribes , Pharisees and profane people , to every irregenerate person : what loosnesse is in such reasoning ? But the worst is that the antecedent is clearly against the places of Scripture alledged . Iohn the Baptist did not exclude either the Scribes or the Pharisees or the common people from his baptism , but received all that came , both the Scribes and Pharisees , and Ierusalem , and all Iudea , and all the region about Iordan , requiring no other condition for their admission to his Sacrament then the confession of sinne and promising of new obedience , acts very feasable to irregenerate people . His last argument is from Acts 8. Philip admitted none to his baptism but upon profession of Faith. Ergo none should be admitted members of a Church without an evidence of their regeneration . For shortnesse I mark but one fault in the consequence , yet a very grosse one , That profession of faith is made a certain argument of true grace and sanctification . Will any of our Brethren be content to admit their members upon so slender tearms as Philip or any of the Apostles did require of their new converts ? Will the profession that Iesus is the Christ , or such a confession of faith as Simon Magus and all the people of Samaria men and women , after a little labour of Philip among them , could make , be an evident and convincing signe of regeneration ? Thus we have considered all Mr Cottons arguments : let any man according to his conscience , pronounce what strength he findes in any of them ; whether or not in them all together there be such firmnesse as to sustaine the unspeakable weight that is in the conclusion builded upon them ; I mean a necessity of separation from all the Reformed Churches except these of the Indepent way : I may adde , from them also and all else that ever have been in the world from the beginning to this houre ; for in none of them these hard conditions of satisfactory evidences of regeneration before persons can be admitted members , were ever so much as required ; and among the Independents where these conditions have been required , they were never found , nor possibly can be found as they doe require them . CHAP. VIII . Concerning the right of Prophecying . THe second question I propounded , concerneth the dogmatick power , so to call it , of their Church-members . They teach that the power of prophesie or publike preaching both within and without the Congregation , belongeth to every man in their Church who hath ability to speak in publike to edification . The Reformed Churches give this power only to Pastors and Doctors who are called by God and the Church to labour in the Word . They do not deny to every Christian all true liberty in private as God gives them occasion , in an orderly way to edifie one another , nor do they deny to the sons of the Prophets who are fitting themselves for the pastorall charge , to exercise their gifts in publike for their preparation and triall ; but publike preaching they do not permit to any who are not either actually in the Ministry or in the way unto it . The Socinians and Arminians , the better to advance their design of everting the publike Ministry , do put it in the hand of any able man to preach the Word and celebrate the Sacraments . The Brownists upon the mistake of some Scriptures , give liberty to any of their members whom their Church thinks able to preach . Mr Cotton and his Brethren in New-England , did follow for a long time the Brownists in this practise ; yet of late feeling as it would seem , the great inconveniency of this liberty of prophecying , they are either gone or going from it ; for in their two last books , The way of their Churches , and the Keyes , they not only passe this popular Prophesying in silence , but also do evert the chiefe grounds whereupon before they did build it ; our Brethren here of Holland and London , seem not yet to be accorded about it ; these of Arnhem did to the last day of their Churches standing maintaine it ; their gentlemen preaching ordinarily in the absence of their Ministers ; but at Roterdam , Mr Bridge would never permit it ; yet Mr Simpson thought it so necessary an ordinance , that the neglect of it was the cheife cause of his secession from Mr Bridge , and erecting a new Church ; neither ever could these two Churches be united till after both Mr Bridges and Mr Simpsons removall ; their Successor did find a temper in this question , permitting the exercise of prophesie , not in the meeting place of the Congregation , but in a private place on a week day ; our Brethren at London are for this exercise , not only upon the former grounds , but especially to hold a doore open for themselves to preach in the Parish-Churches where they neither are nor ever intend to be Pastors , only they preach as gifted men and Prophets , for the conversion of these who are to be made members of their new Congregations . The reasons we bring for our tenet , are these . First , Who ever have power to preach the word ordinarily , have also power to baptise . But only Ministers have power to baptise : Ergo , only Ministers have power to preach the Word ordinarily . The Minor how ever the Arminians and some few of the late Brownists deny , yet all the Independents grant it ; but they deny the Major , which we prove by two Scripturall reasons ; first , Christ conjoyns the power of baptism with the power of preaching ; Ergo , who have the power of preaching have also the power of baptising , which Christ hath anexed to it , Matth. 28.19 . Go and teach all Nations , baptising them . Their Reply that Christ speaks here of Apostles and not of ordinary Ministers , is not satisfactory ; for he speaks both of Apostles and ordinary Ministers because of such officers who were to remain in the Church unto the end of the world , and with whose Ministry he was alwayes and ever to be present as it followeth in verse 20. But the Church from that time to the worlds end , was not to be served by Apostles only , who soon after were removed , but by ordinary Pastors also , the Apostles Successors . Moreover , there is no reason for the connexion of baptism and Preaching in the person of the Apostles that will not hold as well if not better in the person of ordinary Ministers . Our other proofe of the major , is this . The power of preaching is more then the power of baptisme ; Ergo , who have the first , have the second also . The antecedent is manifest from 1 Cor. 1.17 . Christ sent me not to baptise but to preach ; to intimate the excellency of the one above the other ; the Apostle declares not only his seldome practice of the one , but denyeth his commission for it in comparison of the other . The second Argument ; Who ever have power to preach are sent of God to preach . But , these who have no office in the Church are not sent of God to preach , Ergo : They that have no office in the Church have no power to preach . The major is grounded on Rom. 10.15 . How shall they preach except they be sent ? The minor may bee proved , not only from the nature of the thing , the calling of God to preach , and a mans ordinary preaching on Gods call importing an office and charge to do such a work : but also from the place in hand compared with its fountaine , whence it is derived Isay 52.8 . Thy watchmen shall lift up the voyce , where it is cleare that these whom the Lord sends to preach are watchmen , from whose hand the blood of them , that die without warning will be required , Ezeck . 33.6 . Who watch for the peoples soules as they who must give an account , Heb. 12.17 . which is not true of any man who hath no charge . Every ordinary preacher labours in the word and doctrine ; no man out of office labours in the word and doctrine ; for labouring in the word and doctrine , is the character and specifick difference of the Pastor and Doctor , whereby they are distinguished from the ruling Elder , 1 Tim. 5.17 . This character and form of the prime Officers cannot be given to men out of all office . The major is proved from the very terms of the proposition , for no man can acquire an ability to preach ordinarily the Word in the Congregation and to exercise that gift for the Churches edification without great and constant labouring in that Word . Fourthly , Every Preacher of the Word hath gotten a gift from Christ for the perfecting of the Saints , for the work of the Ministry , for the edifying of the body of Christ ; but , no man out of office hath gotten such a gift ; Ergo. The major they do not deny , for they make the ground of their Prophets preaching to be their gift to edifie the Church . The minor thus we prove , Apostles , Evangelists , Prophets , Pastors and Doctors , are not out of office . But , all who have received such gifts , are Apostles , &c. Ergo , none who have received such gifts are out of office . The major none will deny ; the minor is grounded on Ephes . 4.8 . & 11. where there is a perfect enumeration of all the teaching gifts which Christ gave to the Church for edification ; of these are reckoned up only five , Apostles , &c. and to Gods perfect numbers men may not adde . Fifthly , It was unlawfull for men out of office to sacrifice ; Ergo , it is unlawfull for men out of office to preach . The consequence lieth in the parity of preaching to sacrificing , the one being as great an honour if not a greater then the other ; for I suppose it will be granted that the Sacraments of the New Testament are in many respects more excellent then the Sacrifices of the old . Now preaching as we have proved before , is more excellent then baptism , a Sacrament of the New Testament . The antecedent is proved from Heb. chap. 5. v 3.4 , 5. No man taketh this honour to himselfe , viz. to offer up Sacrifices , but he that is called of God as was Aaron ; so also Christ glorified not himselfe to be made an High Priest ; Here it is made unlawfull both for Aaron and Christ to offer up Sacrifices before they had a calling to be Priests . Sixthly , Whoever have gotten of God a calling or a gift to preach the Gospel , they are obliged to keep & encrease their gift , & to improve that calling by giving themselves wholy to reading , by laying aside all worldly occupations , & not intangling themselves with the things of this life ; but , no man out of office is thus obliged . Ergo. The minor they grant , for they will not have their Prophets to be so much in reading as may distract them from their worldly Trade and civill occupation : The major is proved from 1 Tim. cha . 4. ver . 13.14 , 15. where Timothy is commanded to keep his gift of preaching by the meanes named . The reason is alike to all that have that gift , whether they have it by Prophesie , & laying on of the hands of the Presbytery as Timothy had it , or any otherwayes : for the gifts of God however gotten , must not bee neglected , and the meanes prescribed of God for the entertaining of these gifts may not bee slighted , least of all by them in whom the gift is but mean and small ; they of all others have most need of the strongest meanes to make their smoking flax to burn : beside , publick preaching is a faculty of that nature , that all the reading and attendance which any man can bestow upon it , will have enough ado to support and entertaine it in any usefull and edifying condition . Seventhly , None may lawfully preach but such as the Apostles appointed to preach . But , the Apostles appointed no man out of office to preach . The minor alone is questionable ; which thus we prove . The Apostles appointed no others to preach but Elders ; Ergo , none out of office . The antecedent we have from Titus 1.5 . That thou shouldest ordaine Elders in every City as I had appointed thee . Eightly , the permitting of private men out of office to preach , is a great meanes of confusion in the Church and breeding of errors and strife ; Ergo , it s not of God. The antecedent is made too cleare by daily experience ; the consequence is builded upon the nature of God who is a God and Author of truth and order ; what is from him , is conduceable to these ends , not to the contrary . The opposite Arguments are many . Robinson while yet he was , as I suppose , in the height of his Separation , did fill a whole book with them ; the best of these Arguments whereupon our Brethren are pleased to pitch , be these following . First , in the Church of Corinth , men out of office did ordinarily preach in the Congregation ; Ergo , it is lawfull to doe so still . Answ . We may either deny , or distinguish the antecedent : They that preached in the place alledged , were Prophets , and so not out of off●ce . Secondly , they who preached there , were men endued with extraordinary gifts , whose practice can be no pattern to the Churches now a dayes , where these gifts are ceased . That it is so , vers . 30. makes cleare , where the Prophets doe preach extemporary Revelations . Also Mr Cotton himselfe in his last book of the Keyes , p. 20. doth grant this , and expresly recals what himselfe in his Catechism , and both he and his Brethren in their Answer to the 32 Articles , had delivered about prophesying . This ingenuity is amiable , and if it might please God to bring our Brethren off the other points of Brownisme as fairely , there might be hope quickly of an happy Accommodation . Their second Argument . Iehoshaphat and his Princes did preach the word . But , Iehoshaphat & his Princes were not Church-officers ; Ergo , some who are no Church-officers , may preach the Word . Ans . We deny the major ; for that which is recorded of Iehoshaphat , Chro. 2.19 . was nothing but the Kings exhortation to his subjects , to stirre up the Levites and Iudges to a faithfull discharge of their office ; this was no exposition of the Law , nor any dispensing of that knowledge which the Priests lips were appointed by God to preserve ; What is spoken of his Princes preaching , Chron. 2.17 , 6. beside that it was but once in the time of an extraordinary Reformation , the way of that teaching is expounded in the following words , not to have been by themselves , but by the Levites who carried the Book of the Law , they only did preach ; the Princes accompanied them , and by their Civill authority countenanced and assisted them in their preaching . That thus it was , Mr Cotton confesseth in the above-mentioned place of his Keys , avowing that in the Church of Israel none did preach either in the Synagogue or Temple , but Priests and Levites , except they had an extraordinary call to Prophesy . Thirdly . What we are commanded to regard is lawfull . But , the preaching of men out of office we are commanded to regard 1 Thes . 5. Despise not prophecying . Answ . We deny the proofe of the minor ; for the prophecying spoken of by the Apostle is not the preaching of men out of office , but either of such extraordinary Prophets as were in the Church of the Corinthians and other Churches in those primitive times , or else of ordinary pastors who oft in Scripture are called prophets , Mat. 11.9 . He that receiveth a Prophet in the name of a Prophet , shall receive a Prophets reward ; a Prophet is not without honour but in his owne Countrey . A Pagan poet by the Apostle is called a Prophet . Rev. 18.24 . In her was found the blood of the Prophets and Saints ; and 22.9 . I am thy fellow-servant , and of thy brethren the Prophets . Fourthly , our Brethren of New-England bring no more arguments . The rest of Robinsons stuffe is not so considerable : he reasoneth thus ; The sons of the Prophets did preach , 1 Sam. 15.5 . 2 Kings 2.7 . also 4.1 . But , the sons of the Prophets were men out of office . Answ . The major is not proved by the places alledged ; for the first speaks of the Prophets , but not of their sons ; the other two speak of the sons of the Prophets , but nothing of their preaching : yet we do not deny the major ; for we think it may be proved from other Scriptures ; but we deny the minor , That the sons of the Prophets were men altogether out of office ; for their call from God , and appointment by the Prophets to wait on that service , did give them such a begining and entrance into the office of a Prophet that made them capable of an initiall exercise of their begun gifts : so we deny not in the New Testament , to men who are destinate to the Ministry and in their preparations for it , a power to preach for attaining an habit of that gift wherunto initiall Sermons are a necessary means , without which neither the gift nor the calling can be obtained without a miracle . Fifthly , Robinson reasons thus ; All these whom we ought to wish to be Prophets , may lawfully preach . But , we ought to wish all the people of God to be Prophets , Num. 11.20 . Would God that all the people of the Lord were Prophets , and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them . Ans . We deny the major , because our desire for the enlargement of Gods honour and the propagation of his truth , that many more then are , were sent out to preach and baptize giveth not to any man either a gift , or a power , or a calling to preach and baptize , till God and man give the calling . Moses wish was , not that all the people should prophecy , but that all might have the office of Prophets and the spirit of God to enable them for prophecying . Sixthly , the Apostles before Christs resurrection did preach . But , the Apostles before Christs resurrection were not in the office of Apostleship . Answ . The minor must carry that they were men out of all Church office , which is eviden●ly false ; for beside that Mat. 10.1 . they are called expresly Apostles at their first mission ; and Iudas , Acts 1.25 . is said to have had the ministry and the Apostleship : they did celebrate the Sacrament of Baptism , which the adversary will grant could not lawfully be done by men out of office . Seventhly , Paul and Barnabas were invited to preach where they were in no office , and by those who did not know them to be in office anywhere , Acts 13.15 . Men and Brethren if yee have any word of exhortation for the Brethren , say on ; Ergo , men out of office may lawfully preach . Answ . The antecedent is false , for Paul and Barnabas were men in office , true Prophets and Apostles ; their bounds were as large as all Nations . Beside , a Pastor in one Church , for the relation he hath to the Church universall , upon a lawfull call may preach in any Church . Also that the rulers of the Synagogue did not take Paul and Barnabas for Preachers , is as easily deny'd as affirmd : the same both of their preaching & miracles might easily have come before or with them from Cyprus into Pysidia . Lastly , the Scribes and Pharisees did expound and preach the law ; but , the Scribes and Pharisees were in no Church office ; for all the offices of the Church under the old Testament , were in the hands of Levites alone : now the Scribes and Pharisees were not Levites but of other tribes . Ans . The minor is false ; for the Lord tels us that the Scribes and Pharisees were in Church office , that they sate in Moses chaire , and were doctors of the Law. The confirmation is not good ; for how will they prove that in these times of great confusion , the Levites alone had all Ecclesiastick offices , not only in the Temple about the sacrifices , but in the Synagogue about the doctrine and discipline ? Also though this were yeelded , yet how will they prove that the Scribes and Pharisees were of any other Tribe then of Levi ? CHAP. IX . Whether the power of Ecclesiastick Iurisdiction belongs to the People or to the Presbyterie . THe next Question concernes the power of Ecclesiastick Jurisdiction to whom it may be due : by Ecclesiastick Jurisdiction is understood the admission of Members into a Church , their casting out againe by Excomunication , their reconciliation after repentance , the Ordination of Officers , their deposition from their charge , the Determining of Questions , the deciding of Controversies and such other acts of Ecclesiastick authority . Till of late the state of the Question here was very cleare and plaine : the Reformed Churches doe put both the power and the exercise of Jurisdiction into the hand of the Presbytery , that is , the company of Elders , and Colledge of Church Governours . The Brownists , and after them the Independents did ascribe all these acts to the Church , as well without , as with a Presbytery : but of late Master Cotton in his Booke of the Keyes and his Brethren in their Synodick meetings of New-England have so subtilized , and as to me it seemes , involved the Question with a multitude of new distinctions , that it is very hard to apprehend with any certaintie and clearenesse their meaning , and more hard to reconcile any one with himselfe , much lesse one with another . They would seeme to differ much from the Brownists , they stand not to put them in the Category of Morellius , the first Patron of Democracie and popular government in the Church : they professe a midway of government , well ballanced with a prudent mixture of the Officers power with the peoples , giving a part to both , and all to neither : They bring a multitude of distinctions rather to eschew the dint of our former arguments in the darkenesse of these Thickets , then to give any light to this very great Question . They insist most on two distinctions , whereby they thinke to answer all we bring against them . First , they distinguish betwixt a Church Organized or Presbyterated , as they speake , and a Church inorganized and unpresbyterated : the one is a body Heterogeneous , a covenanted people with their Officers framed in a Presbitery ; the other a body Homogeneous a people in a Church Covenant without Officers , at least without a Presbytery . They would seeme to plead , or else the distinction is for no purpose , for the power onely of an Organized and a Presbyterated Church . If they would stand to this in earnest , and firmely , we should be glad ; for so they should openly desert , not onely the whole race of the Brownists , but all their owne former Writings , practises , and enervate the best of these very arguments they still adhere unto : for if ye will consider what is written by Mr. Cotton either in his Catechisme , or way , or answer to the thirty two Questions , or the Arguments that still he insists upon in the Keyes , or their generall practise in Holland and New-England to this day , you will see that they maintaine the Jurisdiction of a Church , as well unpresbyterated , without a Presbytery , without Officers , as of a Church Presbiterated ; for the power of Ordination of Officers , and of their deposition , the power of admitting and casting out of Members , which are the highest acts of Jurisdiction , they ascribe expressely to every Church , whether it have , or want Officers , as its proper and undeniable priviledge . Their other new distinction , wherein openly they applaud so much one another , as it were contending who should have the glory of its invention , is of a double power , one of Authority , and another of Liberty : ascribing unto a Presbyterated Church the whole power of Jurisdiction and every part of it , both to the Officers of their Presbytery , and to the people in their fraternity or brotherhood ; but , so that the interest of the Officers in every act , is a power of authority which makes that their action only is valid and binding ; but the interest of the people is a power of liberty to concurre in these acts of Jurisdiction by an obedientiall , yet a necessary and authoritative concurrence . This new distinction will not serve their turne , for first , it s not applicable to the chiefe acts of Jurisdiction in question : their Ordination of Officers , their admission of Members , are done ordinarily by their people alone , without the concurrence of any Officers , who then are not in being . Secondly , their arguments for the peoples interest in Excommunication , Absolution , and other acts of Jurisdiction , inferre either nothing at all , or much more then that which they call a power of Liberty , or of an authoritative concurrence . Thirdly , this distinction involves the Authors in new unextricable difficulties , it makes the Keyes & Sword of Christ altogether inserviceable in common and ordinary cases , wherein they have most neede and occasion to be set on worke . Not onely according to their former principles , they make every Congregation uncensurable for any possible crime : But by this new Doctrine they confesse , that every Presbytery in a Congregation becomes uncensurable , and that every people of a Congregation becometh uncapable of any censure . Yea farther , if the most part of the Presbytery , suppose two ruling Elders joyne together in the greatest heresies and crimes , the whole people with the rest of the Presbitery , suppose the Pastor cannot censure these two Elders ; also if the greatest part of the people should joyne in the greatest wickednesse , yet the whole Presbytery , with the rest of the people that remaine sincere and gracious , cannot censure the wicked . In all these , and divers such ordinary cases , they have no remedy but Separation , and alwayes Separation upon Separation , till their Church be dissolved into so small portions that it cannot by more Separations be farther divided . But let us consider the Arguments upon both sides . First , we reason thus , The people are not the Governors of the Church , But the acts of Ecclesiastick Jurisdiction belong to the Governors of the Church ; Ergo , The acts of Ecclesiastick Jurisdiction belong not to the people . The Minor is cleare from the nature of the very termes ; for Jurisdiction is either all one with Government , or a chiefe part of it : now Government is essentially relative to Governors . The Major is proved by many Scriptures , which make the people so farre from being Governors , that they are obliged to be subject and obedient to their Officers , as to them by whom God will have them governed , Heb. 13.17 . Obey them that have the rule over you , for they watch for your soules as they who must give an account . 1 Tim. 5.17 . Let the Elders who rule well , be counted worthy of double honour . 1 Thes . 5.12 . Know them which are over you in the Lord , and esteeme them very highly in love for their workes sake . God hath made them Pastors , and the people their flocke ; them Builders , the people the stones laid by them in the building ; them Fathers , the people children begotten by their Ministry ; them Stewards , the people domesticks under their conduct . Secondly , whosoever hath the power of Ecclesiasticke Jurisdiction , to them the Lord hath given the Keys of Heaven for the remitting and retaining of sinnes . But to none of the people the Lord hath given these Keys . Ergo. The Major is not controverted . The Minor is thus proved . To whom Christ hath given the Keys of the Kingdome of Heaven to retaine and remitt sinnes , they are in some Ecclesiasticke Office , They are sent out by Christ , as Christ was by his Father , they have some part of the Apostles ordinary charge ; but these things are not true of the people . Ergo. The Major is proved , John. 20.21 . As my Father hath sent me , so send I you ; and when he had said this , he breathed upon them , and said receive yee the Holy Ghost ; whose sinnes yee remitte they are remitted , and whose sinnes yee retaine they are retained . What was promised to Peter , Mat. 16.19 is here performed to him and the rest of the Apostles , and to their Successours in their ordinary Office of Elders : for this was a power necessary for the Church to the end of the world . The Minor also is cleare ; for these things were not given to all the Disciples , but to the twelve , and to their Successours . What was promised to Peter , was not promised to every faithfull person , and to every Orthodoxe Confessour ; for so , all and every one should be bearers of the Keys , and Ecclesiasticke Officers , which is against the Scriptures of the first Argument . Thirdly , to whom these acts of Jurisdiction doe belong , they are the eyes , eares , hands , and principall Members of the Body of Christ : for the eminent persons and Officers of a Church , are compared to these Members , because of these actions . But the people are not the eyes , eares , hands ; are not the principall Members of the Body of Christ : for if so , there should be none left in the Church to be the feete , or lesse principall Members : all should become eyes , and hands , and the Church should be made a Body Homogeneous , contrary to the doctrine of the Apostle , 1. Cor. 12 19. If they were all one Member , where were the Body ? but now are they many Members , and the eye cannot say to the hand I have no neede of thee , nor the head to the feete I have no neede of you . Fourthly , Who have a right from God to the acts of Jurisdiction , they have a promise of gifts needfull for the performance of these acts . For a divine right and calling to any worke is backed with a promise of Gods presence , gifts and assistance in doing of that worke ; but , the people have no promise of any such gifts . For besides that daily experience declares numbers among the people to be altogether destitute of such knowledge , wisedome and other gifts which are necessary for the performance of these acts of Jurisdiction : The Apostle himselfe teaches that such gifts are not given to all , but to some onely . Fifthly , That is not to be given to the people that brings confusion into the Church , for the Lord is the God of Order . But the putting of the power of Jurisdiction in the peoples hand , brings confusion into the Church , for it makes the feete above the head , it puts the greatest power into the hand of the meanest , it gives power to the Flocke to depose and excommunicate their Pastour . Our Brethren were lately wont to digest with the Brownists these absurdities : but now they begin to dislike them , and rather then to stand to their Prior Tenets , they will limit the Minor , asserting that the power of Jurisdiction belongs to the people not severally , but joyntly with their Officers : so that neither they can excommunicate their Officers , nor their Officers can excommunicate them . But it seemes this new Subtilty will not long please the Inventors of it , for as we have saide it makes the Keys of Heaven much more inserviceable for opening and closing then needs must ; when it hath taken the keys out of the hand of all others , and put them in the little weake fist of a particular Congregation ; it will not permitt them to open or to close the doore , neither to the people , nor yet to the Eldershippe . The Eldershippe cannot remitt , nor retaine the sinnes of the Brotherhood , nor the Brotherhood , of the Eldershippe : yea none of the Eldershippe can be censured by all the people , without the consentient vote of the Presbytery , nor any of the people can either be bound or loosed without the consentient vote of the people . In these cases which may be very frequent , The Keys of Christ must be layde aside , and a new key of the Independents owne invention , their sentence of Non-Communion , or that much beloved and a little elder key of separation , forged by the Brownists , must come in the place thereof , to be used against any or all other Churches , against their owne Church or its Eldershippe , or its Brotherhood , or any Member of either . Our sixth argument concernes Ordination , a speciall act of Jurisdiction , which all the Independents to this day put in the hands of the people alone , when ever a new Congregation is to be erected : which to them is no extraordinary nor rare case : or when in a Congregation already erected , there is no Presbytery , which among them is frequent . For a Presbytery must consist of more Governours then one , and usually their Presbiteryes exceede not the number of three or foure . At the death of their Minister , suppose one of their two ruling Elders be sicke , or absent , or the two differ betweene themselves : in this case they make no difficulty to cause some of the people out of all office to ordaine a new chosen Pastour ; Against this very ordinary practice we reason . Vnto whom the power of Ordination doth belong , they have a Commission from God authoritatively to send Pastours for preaching and celebration of the Sacraments , also to lay hands upon them for that effect ; But people have no such Commission . Ergo. The Major , is the nature of Ordination ; for the essence and inward forme of it is the authoritative sending named : the outward Forme and Signe used in Scripture , is imposition of hands . The Minor is proved from three grounds ; first , that the people however they elect , yet they doe not send ; for so they should send to themselves . The Senders and they to whom the Preachers are sent , should be one and the same . Secondly , an authoritative mission imports a Superiority in the Sender above the Sent ; But , the Pastours are over the people not under them . Thirdly , the examples of the New Testament make it evident , that the authoritative sending , and imposition of hands , the signe thereof , were never used by any of the people , but by the Elders onely . 1 Tim. 4.14 . With the laying on of the hands of the Presbytery : 1 Tim. 5.22 . Lay hands suddenly upon no man. 2 Tim. 1.6 . Stirre up the gift of God that is in thee by the putting on of my hands . So it was not onely at the first sending of men to preach , but in posterior missions to any particular Service of the Ministery . Acts. 13.1 . There was in the Church certaine Prophets and Teachers , and the Holy Ghost sayd , Separate me Barnabas and Saul to the worke whereunto I have called them ; and when they had fasted and prayed , and layd their hands on them , they sent them away . Fourthly , None of the people ordinarily have the gifts requisite for this action , as skill to examine the Minister in all things he must be tried in , a gift of publicke prayer , a faculty to instruct and exhort the Pastour and people to mutuall duties . Seventhly , That power belongeth not to the people which disableth them both in their Christian and Civill duties . But , the power of Ecclesiastick Jurisdiction doth so . The Major is grounded on the nature of all power and all gifts which God doth give ; for all are for edification , and none for the hurt of these to whom they are given . The Minor may be demonstrated by this ▪ That it layes a necessity upon all the people to attend in the Sabbath day upon the exercise of discipline , which by the very length will make the Sabbath-Service insupportably burdensome ; and also will fill the mindes of the people with these purposes which naturally occurre in the agitation of Ecclesiasticke causes , and cannot but cast out of common weake mindes much of the fruite of the preceding worship . Further , the peoples necessary attendance on all Ecclesiasticke causes , will make the processe in the most causes so prolix , as cannot but robbe the people of that time which they ought to imploy in their secular callings for getting of bread . For every one of the people being a Judge , must be so satisfyed in every circumstance of every action , as to give their Suffrage upon certaine knowledge and with a good conscience : now before this can be done in a few causes of the smallest , and best ordered Congregations much time will be spent : as the Church of Arneim found it in one cause alone , though but a light one ; and betwixt two onely , even of their cheife and best Members . Eighthly , That power is not to be given to the people , which brings in the popular government of Morellius into the Church : but , the power in question doth so . The Major is the common assertion of all the Brethren , that they are farre from democracy , and further from Morellius anarchy , and that they are ready to forsake their Tenet , if it can be demonstrated to import any such thing . The Minor thus we prove , That which puts the highest acts of Government in the hands of the multitude , brings in the popular government : for in the greatest democracies that are or ever have beene , there were divers acts of great power in the hand of sundry Magistrates ; but the highest acts of power being in the hands of the people alone : such as the making of Lawes , the creation of Magistrates , the censure of the greatest Offendors , these were the sure signes of Supremacy , that gave the denomination to the government . Now we assure that the Tenet in hand puts the highest acts of Ecclesiastick Authority in the hands of the people . For the Ordination and Deposition of Officers , the binding and loosing of Offendours , are incomparably the highest acts of Ecclesiasticke Jurisdiction : These they put in the hand of the people . That they doe conjoyne with the people the Officers to expound the Law , and declare what is right , and to give out the sentence makes nothing against the peoples Supremacy : for in Rome and Athens at their most democraticke times , and this day in the States of Holland , in all the Provinces and every City , where the people are undoubted Soveraignes , they have their Magistrates and Officers in all their proceedings to goe before them , to declare the case , to take the Suffrages , and to pronounce the Sentence . As for them who of late have begun to put the whole Authority in the Officers alone , and to give the people onely a liberty of consenting to what the Officers doe decree of their owne Authority , wee say they are but few that doe so , and these contradictory to themselves . Also these same men give absolute Authority to the people in divers cases : further , that liberty of consent they come to call an authoritative concurrence . Lastly , the most of the arguments even of these men , doe conclude not onely a liberty to consent , and to concurre , but an authoritative agency in the highest acts of Jurisdiction . Ninthly , They who have the power of Jurisdiction , have also the power of preaching the word , and celebrating the Sacraments , unlesse God in his word have given them a particular and expresse exemption from that imployment . But none of the people have power to preach the word , and celebrate the Sacraments . Ergo. The Major is built on these Scriptures which conjoyne the administration of the Word , Sacrament and Discipline in one and the same termes : and upon these Scriptures which lay a part of these administrations upon some men , with an expresse exception of another part of them . Math. 16.19 . under the name of the Keys of the Kingdome of Heaven , is comprehended the whole Ecclesiasticke power of the Word , Sacraments , and Discipline ; what there is promised . Joh. 20. it is performed in these termes , as the Father hath sent me , so I send you . But , 1 Tim. 5.17 . where this power is separated and distinguished , the one part of Jurisdiction is ascribed to the ruling Elders , with an expresse intimation of their freedome from preaching the Word , and by consequence from celebration of the Sacraments . The Minor was that none of the people have power of the word and Sacraments . For the power of the Sacraments , it is confessed not to belong to the people . That the power of preaching the Word , belongeth no more to them , was proved in the former Chapter . None of our Brethren doe ascribe the power of preaching to all the People , but onely to a few of them who are able to prophesie : so the power of Jurisdiction according to the ground in hand , could be ascribed to none of the people but these few Prophets alone . For the other side , the Separatists and Master Parker , in this point as farre wrong as the other , bring many arguments : but I will meddle onely with these which Master Cotton doth borrow from them in his way of the Churches , and answer to the 32. Questions . First , from Math. 16.19 he reasons thus . The Power of the Keys is given unto Peter upon the confession of his faith . Ergo , every Beleever hath the Power of the Keys . Answer . I deny the consequence , for however upon the occasion of his confession the Keys are promised to him : yet they are not promised to him because of his confessing , nor under the relation of a beleever ; for if so , then all and onely beleevers should have the full Power of the Keys ; but our Brethren will be loth to avow this direct Assertion of Smith the Sebaptist ; for they doe not ascribe the Power of the Sacraments to any beleever out of Office , nor any power of the Keys to every beleever : for some beleevers are not Members of any Church , and the Keys are onely for Domesticks . Neither doe they put the Keys into the hands of beleevers alone ; for so , Judas and many Pastours for want of true fayth could not validly either preach or baptize . The Keys therefore are not promised to Peter under the notion of a beleever , but in the quality of an Apostle and Elder of the Church , as is cleared in the paralled places of Math & John , where the gift here promised is actually conferred upon all the Apostles , who all were Elders , and whose Office of opening and closing the doores of Heaven , was to remaine in the Church to the worlds end , not in the hand of every beleever , but of the Governours of the Church joyned in that Presbytery which other Scriptures doe mention . Secondly , they reason from Ma● . 18. who ever is the Church to whom scandalls must be told , and which must be heard under the pain of Excommunication , they have the power of Church Censures ; But the people are that Church . Ergo. Ans , we deny the Minor , with the good leave of our Brethren : for albeit they are wont to make the people alone without their Officers the Church in this place , proving hence the peoples power of Jurisdiction before they have any Officers , also their power to cast out all their Officers when they have gotten them ; yet now they have gone from the Separatists thus farre , as to say , that the people alone cannot be the Church here mentioned : but the Church must be the people with their Officers , whom now they will be loth as sometimes to make meere accidents and adjuncts of this Church : for now they hold them for integrall Members , so necessary , that without them no censure at all can be performed upon any . They goe here a little further , telling us that the Church in this place cannot be the people , though with their Officers ; but must be taken for the Officers with the people : because both the Power and the Execution of censures belongs to the Officers alone , though in the presence of the people , and with their consent , and concurrence . They tell us that the Right and Authority of censures is given onely to the Presbytery of governours , in such a manner that the Presbytery can be censured by no others , neither can any other be censured not onely without their consent , but not without their action . We adde a third steppe , whether our former arguments must draw them , that the Church here meant , must be the Governours alone without the peoples concurrence : for if Excommunication the great act of government , did belong to the people , either by themselves alone , or joyntly by way of concurrence with their Officers , it would follow that the people were either sole governours above their Officers , or joynt governours with their Officers : which albeit our Brethren did hold lately with the Separatists , yet now they will not assert , so much the more as they declare it to be their judgement and practice that the Elders alone without the People , doe meete apart in their Presbytery to heare all offences and to prepare them for publicke Judgement , whence I thus argue . They to whom offences are to be told immediatly after the two or three witnesses are not heard , They are the Church to whom in this place the power of excommunication is given ; but , the Elders alone without the People , being set apart in their Presbytery , are they to whom offences are to be told , &c. Ergo , The Major is cleare from the Text , for it speaks but of one Church which must be told , and heard under the paine of censure . The Minor is their own confession , and practice : and if that meeting of the Elders to whom they tell the offence , for preparation of the processe to their peoples voice , be not the Church here mentioned , Then their ordinary practice of bringing scandalls first to the Presbytery , before they be heard in the Congregation , shall be found not onely groundlesse beside the Scripture , but altogether contrary to the Scripture in hand : for the method here prescribed is that the Church be told when the witnesses are not heard : if therefore that company which is told after the witnesses are contemned , be not the Church : Christs order is not kept , and the Church gets wrong . Thirdly , they reason from 1 Cor. chap. 5. ver . 4.5.7.12.13 . They who are gathered together with the Apostles Spirit , and the Power of Christ to deliver the incestuous man to Sathan ; Who were to purge out the old Leaven , and to judge them that are within , and put away the wicked Person : they have power to excommunicate ; but , the People doe all these things . Ergo. Answer , the Minor is denyed . First , that gathering together might well be of the Presbytery alone , which our Brethren grant most meete in divers preparatory acts to censure . Secondly , if it were of the whole people which can not be supposed in Corinth , where the People and Officers were so many , that the Congregations , as in Jerusalem , and else where , were more then one : yet , suppose that all the people did meete to the excommunication of that wicked man , this proves not that every one who did meete unto that censure , had either the power or the execution of it , more then of the Word and Sacraments to which they did more frequently meete . Thirdly , the purging out of the old Leaven , and the putting away the man , is commended indefinitely to these unto whom the Apostle wrote , which our Brethren grant cannot be expounded without sundry exceptions . First , none doubt of women and children ; againe in the next chapter , it is written indefinitely , you are sanctifyed , you are justifyed , your Bodyes are the Temples of the Holy Ghost ; this must be restricted to the elect and regenerate , except we will turne Arminians . Everywhere in Scripture indefinite propositions must be expounded according as other Scriptures declare the nature of the matter in hand ; so here , the act of purging and putting away , ascribed indefinitely to the Church , must be expounded not of all the Members , but only of the Officers of the Church . For the Brownists themselves make not every Member to be a ruler : nor doe our Brethren give the formall authority and power of censures to any other but Officers , ascribing to the rest of the Members onely a Liberty of concurrence , so that the next word of Judging is expounded by them of a Judgement of discretion , not of any judiciall and authoritative Judgement , which alone is in question . Fourthly , from Coll. 4.17 . they reason : the people of Colosse had power to admonish their Minister Archippus to fullfill his Ministery . Therefore the People of any Church have power if neede be to excommunicate their Minister . Answer . First , That however our Brethren pretend to have come off from the extremity of the Brownists , halfe way towards us : yet their arguments drive at the utmost of their old extremities , at no lesse then a power for the people to excommunicate their Ministers . Thus farre the most of their reasons doe carry , if they have any force at all . Secondly , the Antecedent may well be denyed , all that the Apostle speaks to the Collossians indefinitely , must not be expounded of every one of the people : This precept of speaking to Archippus , could not be better performed then by the Presbytery , whereof Archippus was a Member . Thirdly , the consequence is invalid , They might admonish , therefore excommunicate . Every admonition is not in order to censure ; it is a morall duty incumbent to every one to admonish lovingly and zealously his Brother , when there is cause : it is a sinne and disobedience to God if we let sinne lye upon any whom we by our counsell and admonition can helpe ; but to conclude that we have power to Excommunicate every man , whom in duty wee ought to admonish , is an absurdity which none of the Separatists will well digest . Fifthly , From Revel . 2.14.20 . The whole Churches of Pergamus and T●yatira , are rebuked for suffering wicked Hereticks to live among them uncensured . Ergo , it was the duty of all the Church to censure them . Answer . First , the conclusion is for a power to the people to censure , which our Brethren now deny . Secondly , The Antecedent may be denied ; for the fault of that impious Toleration is not laid upon the whole Church , but expresly upon the Angell . Thirdly , the consequence is not good . The whole Church might be reproved for a neglect of their duty , in not inciting and incouraging their Officers to censure these Hereticks ; but a reproofe for this neglect , inferreth not that it was the peoples duty to execute these censures : Thus much our Brethren will not avow . Sixthly , They reason from Revel . 4.4 . The foure and twenty Elders sate on Thrones in white Robes with Crownes on their heads . Ergo , Every one of the Church hath a power of judging , as Kings with Crownes sitting on their Thrones . Answer , First , the conclusion ever inferres the full Tenet of the Separatists . Secondly , the consequence is very weake , except many things be supposed which will not be granted without strong proofes : first , that this Type is argumentative for the matter in hand : secondly , that this place is relative to the Church on earth , rather then to that in heaven : thirdly , that these Elders doe typifie the people rather then the Officers : fourthly , that the Thrones and Crownes import a Kingly Office in every Christian to be exercised in Church censures upon their brethren , more then the white robes doe inferre the Priestly Office of every Christian to be exercised in Preaching the Word and celebrating the Sacraments . Seventhly , They reason from Galatian 5.1.13 . the Galatians were called unto Liberty , whereto they behoved to stand fast , as to a priviledge purchased by Christ his blood ; Ergo , Every one of them had a power to cut off their Officers . Answer . This is the Scripture whereupon our Brethren have lately fallen , and make more of it then of any other . I confesse , their reasoning from it seemes to me the most unreasonable throwing of the holy Scripture that I have readily seene in any Disputant . The whole scope of the place carrying evidentty a liberty from the burthen and servitude of the Law. Their fathering upon it a new and unheard of sense , to wit , a priviledge of Church censures , without any authority or proper power therein , is very strange : they cannot produce any Scripture where the word Liberty hath any such sense , and though they could , yet to give the word that sense in this place where so clearely it is referred to a quite diverse matter , it seemeth extremely unreasonable . Eightly , Thus they reason , The whole Congregation of Israel had power to punish Malefactors , as in the case of Gibea ▪ & in the message of Israel to the two Tribes & halfe ; also the people had power to rescue from the hands of the Magistrates , as in the case of Jonathan from Saul . Answer . The consequence is null ; for the practise of the Israelites in their civill state , is no sufficient rule for the proceedings of the Church of the New Testament . Our Brethren would beware of such Arguments , least by them they entertaine the jealousie which some professe they have of their way , fearing it be builded upon such principles as will set up the common people , not onely above their Officers in the Church , but also above their Magistrate in the State : That it draw in a popular government and Ochlocracie both in Church and State alike . Ninthly , They thus reason . Who ever doe elect the Officers , they have power to ordaine them , and upon just cause to depose and excommunicate them . But the people do elect their Officers ; Ergo. Answer . The major is denied ; for first , election is no act of power ; suppose it to be a priviledge , yet there is no Jurisdiction in it at all ▪ but Ordination is an act of Jurisdiction , it is an authoritative mission , and putting of a man into a spirituall Office. The people , though they have the right and possession by Scripturall practise of the one , yet they never had either the right or the possession of the other . Secondly , suppose the Maxime were true , whereof yet I much doubt , unlesse it be well limited , Ejus est destituere cuius instituere , that they who give authority , have power to take it backe againe ; yet we deny that the people who elect , give any authority or office at all , their election is at most but an Antecedent , Sine quo non ; it is the Presbytery onely who by their Ordination doe conferre the Office upon the elect person . Finally , They argue , No act of Jurisdiction is v●lid without the peoples consent ; Ergo , to every act of Jurisdiction the peoples presence and concurrence is necessary : Answer . The antecedent in many cases is false ; a gracious Orthodoxe Minister may be ordained a Pastor to a Hereticall people against their consent : an Hereticall Pastor , who hath seduced all his flocke , may be removed from them against their passionate desires to keepe him : but the Consequent is more vitious ; where ever consent is requisite , their presence , much lesse authoritative concurrence , is not necessary : all the souldiers are not present at the Counsell of War , and yet the decrees of that Counsell of War can not be executed without the consent and action of the Souldiers : every member of the Church of Antioch was not present at the Synod of Jerusalem : diverse members of the Independent Congregations are absent from many Church determinations , to the which upon their first knowledge they doe agree . CHAP. X. Independencie is contrary to the Word of God. THe Divine Wisedome which found it expedient for man before the Fall , not to live alone , hath made it much more needfull for man to live in Society after his weakning by sinne ; Woe to him that is alone , for if he fall who shall raise him up ? The best wits of themselves are prone to errors and miscarriages , and left alone , are inclined to run on in any evill way they have once begunne : But engagement in fellowshippe , especially with the Saints , is a preservative against the beginnings of evill , and a retractive therefrom when begunne . Every gratious neighbour is a Counsellour and Pedagogue , the greater the incorporation is of such , the better is every Member directed and the more strengthened . Hence the goodnesse of God hath ordained not onely the planting of particular men into a small body of one single Congregation , but for the greater security both of Persons and Congregations , the Lord hath increased that Communion of Churches by binding neighbour Congregations in a larger and stronger Body of a Presbytery , or Classis ; yea a number of Presbyteryes by the same hand of God are combined in a Synode ; neither this onely , but for the strengthening of every stone and of the whole building , the Lord hath appointed the largest societies that are possible , the very Church universall and the representation thereof , an Oecumenick Assembly . This congregative way is divine ; the dissolution of humane societies , especially of Ecclesiasticke Assemblyes , must be from another Spirit . The first we know to have opposed the holy Societyes we speake of , were Anabaptists , who liking a Catholicke anarchy in all things , and pressing an universall liberty , did strive to cut in peeces all the bands , as of Politicke and Oeconomick union whereby Kingdomes and States , Cities and Familyes did stand , so also of the Ecclesiasticke conjunction , making every person at last fully free from all servitude , and simply independent , or uncontrolable in any of his owne opinions or desires , by any mortall man. Their first follower among the reformed , was one John Moreau a Parisian , who in the French Churches did vent the Independency of Congregations from Synods , and the popular government of these Independent Congregations : But his scismatick pamphlet came no sooner abroad then the French Divines did most unanimously trample upon it . In their generall Assembly at Rochell , most Reverend Beza Moderator for the time , and in their next Assembly , Learned Sadeell with others , did so fully confute these Anabaptistick follies , that thereafter in France this evill Spirit did never so much as whisper ; only in Holland , in the Arminian times , it began to speake by the tongue of Grotius , and others of his fellowes , who being conscious to themselves of Tenets whereunto they despared the assent of any Synode , yea fearing to be prejudged in the propagation of their errours by a crosse Sentence of a Nationall Assembly , did set themselves to call in question , and at last to deny the Authority and Jurisdiction of all Church meetings . But when the goodnesse of God in that happy Synode of Dort , did crush the other errours of that Party , this their fansie did evanish , and since in these bounds hath beene buried in Oblivion . By what meanes this Anabaptistick roote which neither France nor Holland could beare , when Grotius and Morellius did assay to plant it , doth thrive so well in England , after Browne and Barrow with their followers did become its dressers , I have declared at length before . However the Novelty of the Tenet , the Infamie of its Authours , the evill successe it hath had whereever yet it hath set up the head , doth burden it with so just contempt , that all further audience might be denyed thereto ; yet in this impudent and malapertage , where the greatest absurdityes will importunately ingyre themselves , and require beleefe as unanswerable and most covincing truths , unlesse in a full hearing their naughtinesse be demonstrate , we are content without all prejudices to reason the matter it selfe from the ground , and to require no man to hate this errour for its Authours , or any externall consideration , unlesse it be cleerely showne to be contrary to the revealed will of God. The state of the Question hath no perplexitie , if its termes were cleared . The Brownists affirme that every Parish Church , that every single Congregation , is Independent from any Presbytery , any Synod , any Assembly : This we deny , affirming the true dependence and subordination of Parochiall Congregations to Presbyteries , and of these to Synods : to which we ascribe power , authority , and Jurisdisdiction . Before wee fall to reasoning , let us understand the words , which in this debate doe frequently occurre . First , what is a Parochiall Church , or single Congregation . Secondly , What is its independence . Thirdly , What is a Presbytery , and a Presbyteriall Church . Fourthly , What is a Synod . Fifthly . What is Authoritie and Jurisdiction Ecclesiasticall . We intend no definitions , but such popular descriptions as may make cleare what the parties use to understand by these words . A particular Church , a Parish or Congregation in this Question , is taken for a company of faithfull people , every one whereof in the face of the whole Congregation , hath given so cleare tokens of their true grace and regeneration , as hath satisfied the minde of all : A company , I say , incorporate by a particular Covenant and Oath to exercise all the parts of Christian Religion , in one place under one Pastor : Our Opposits affirme , that in one Church there must be but one Pastor , assisted indeede with a Doctor , and three or foure Elders , yet no more Pastors but one . They will admit into a Church no more people then commodiously , and at their ease , may convene in one house ; how few they be they care not ; ten families , or forty persons to them are a faire Church : you have heard that some of their Churches have beene within the number of foure persons . Independencie is the full liberty of such a Church to discharge all the parts of Religion , Doctrine , Sacraments , Discipline , and all within it selfe without all dependence , all subordination to any other on earth , more or fewer , so that the smallest Congregation , suppose of three persons , though it fall into the grossest heresies , may not be controlled by any Orthodoxe Synod , were it Oecumenicke of all the Churches on earth . A Presbytery , as it is called in Scotland , or a Classis , as in Holland , or a Collogue , as in France , is an ordinary meeting of the Pastors of the Churches neerly neighbouring , & of the ruling Elders deputed therefrom , for the exercise chiefely of discipline , so farre as concernes these neighbouring Churches in common . A Presbyteriall Church , is a company of Professors governed by one Prysbytery , who for the exercise of Religion meete in diverse places , or who have moe Pastors then one . A Synod , is a convention of Pastors and Elders sent and deputed from diverse Presbyteries , meeting either ordinarily or upon occasion for the affaires that are common to those that sent them . Ecclesiasticke Jurisdiction , is a right and power , not onely by advice to counsell and direct , but by authority given of God , to injoyne and to performe according to the rule of Scriptures these things which concern the Ordination of Ministers , the deciding of Ecclesiasticall Causes , the determination of Doctrines , the inflicting of Censures , &c. The signification of these words being presupposed , the state of the Question , or minde of the parties , can not be obscure . The first Argumen for the truth I cast into this Forme . Every Independent Church hath alwayes , and ordinarily , the right of Ordination , and power to lay hands on Pastors . But , no single Congregation , or Parochiall Church huth that right and power . Ergo ▪ No single Congregation is an Independent Church . The Major is not questioned by the adverse party , for they place the nature of their Independencie in a right and power intrinsecall and essentiall to every the least Congregation of Ordaining , Deposing , Excommunicating , and exercising all acts of Jurisdiction upon all their own Members , as well Pastors as others . I said alwayes , and ordinarily , for we question not now what at some times in some extraordinary cases may fall out to be lawfull and necessary , not onely to single Congregations , but even to single persons : Also the power which our adverse party disputeth for , is not Hypotheticke , which sometimes on supposition of such and such cases belongeth to a Church , but absolute , which is inherent to every Congregation at all times . The Minor we prove thus : What is proper to a Presbytery the right thereof belongs not to any single Congregation : But Ordination , and imposition of hands is proper to a Presbytery , as appeareth from 1 Tim. 4 , 14. Neglect not the gift that is in thee , which was given thee by Prophesie with the laying on of the hands of the Presbytery . The Apostle maketh that right proper to the Presbytery , which he will have to remaine in it , and not to be removed therefrom , notwithstanding sundry extraordinary cases which might have excused the removeall of it . For Timothy was a Pastor not altogether ordinary , and inferior , but an Evangelist ; he had for the ground of his Office the extraordinary call of some Prophets when he was sent out to Preach , Paul himself laid hands upon him ; notwithstanding all this , that the due and just right of the Presbytery migh be proclamed , the Apostle marketh that the gift , office , and grace of Preaching the Gospell was conferred on Timothy by the laying on of the Presbyteries hands . For the proof of the last Maior , we neede not much descant on the Word Presbytery , and the sense of it in the fore-named place , nor to refute the misinterpretations which some make of it , especially they , who under the mis-alledged authority of Calvin , would understand not the convention of any men , but the Office of a Presbyter , as if an Office or any accident could have had hands which might have beene laid on Timothies head . Passing therefore such digressions , we prove the Maior in hand , thus : No single Congregation is a Presbytery , nor any wayes necessarily hath a Presbytery within it selfe ; yea if our adverse party may be beleeved , no Congregation can have , at least should have in it selfe such a Presbytery whereof Paul speaketh . Ergo. What is proper to a Presbytery , the right thereof may not be usurped by any single Congregation . Of the consequence there is no doubt : the Antecedent hath three parts : onely the first is needefull to be proved ; but for more abundant satisfaction , we shall assay to prove them all . The first , thus ; A Presbytery is a member and part of a Congregation , according to our adverse party ( we love not to strive for words , be it so that the meeting of a Minister and Elders governing single Congregations , which we call a Session , as over-Sea it is called a Consistory , may goe under the name of a Presbytery ) Ergo. No Congregation is a Presbytery . The Consequence is clear , for no member may be affirmed in the Nominative of its owne whole , especially Heterogeneous : The body is not the head , the finger is not the hand ; he doore , or the Window is not the house . Concerning the second part of the Antecedent , that no Congregation hath a Presbytery any wayes necessarily within it selfe , this is cleare from the common practise of our adverse party : very oft their Churches have neither Session , nor Pastor , nor Doctor , nor Elder at all ; they make not any of the Officers necessary parts of the Church either essentiall or integrall , without the which the Church may not subsist ; yea , as the most learned , and most acute Mr. Rutherfoord hath well observed , pag. 272. their grounds take away the necessitie of any Ministry at all . Mr. Paget tells us that their chiefe and Mother-Church at Amsterdame , through the mis-government of their Pastor , Mr. Can , hath wanted now for some yeares both a Doctor and Elders and a Session , or Congregationall Presbytery . But the pith of the Argument is in the third part of the Antecedent , that no single Congregation can have , or ( which is all one when we speake of right and wrong ) ought to have within it selfe Pauls Presbytery . This we prove . No single Congregation may , or ought to have moe Pastors than one . Ergo. Neither Pauls Presbytery . The Antecedent is the Doctrine of our adverse party . The Consequence leaneth on this Proposition . In Pauls Presbytery are more Pastors , which thus is proved : Where there are many layers on of hands on Pastors , there are many Pastors : But , in Pauls Presbytery are many layers on of hands on Pastors ; for in the alledged place , not one , but many lay on their hands with Paul on Timothy . The last Maior leaneth on this ground , that onely Pastors lay hands on Pastors , so that many laying hands on Pastors , must be many Pastors , and by Consequence , in one Congregation , where there are not many , but one onely Pastor , ( yea none at all whensoever by imposition of hands a new Pastor is to be ordained to that Congregation , ) the act of Ordination can not be lawfully performed by the proper members of that Congregation . That which alone remaineth to be proved , that onely Pastors lay hands upon Pastors , is cleared by an Induction , against which no instance can be brought . 1 Tim. 5.22 . Lay hands suddenly on no man. 2 Tim. 1.6 . Stirre up the gift of God that is in thee , by the putting on of my hands . Tit. 1.5 . I left thee in Crete that thou shouldest ordayne Elders . Acts. 13.1.3 . Certaine Prophets and Teachers laide their hands upon them , and sent them away . Acts. 14.23 . They ordained them Elders in every Church . In all these places both the first Ordination , and posterior Mission to preach the Gospell , is the Act onely of those who were Pastors , neither else-where reade we that it was otherwise . The second argument : Every Independent Church , exerciseth ordinarily within it selfe , by its owne members all acts of Ecclesiasticke Jurisdiction . But , this no single Congregation doth ordinarily . Ergo , no single Congregation is an Independent Church . Onely the Minor is dubious , which we prove thus ; Every Church ordinarily exercising all acts of Ecclesiastick Jurisdiction is Presbyteriall : But , no single Congregation is a Presbyteriall Church . Ergo. No single Congregation exerciseth ordinarily all acts of Ecclesiastick Jurisdiction . The Minor is cleare from the nature of a single Congregation and Presbyteriall Church , as in the stateing of the Question both were described . The Major is proved by a full Induction of all the Churches which in the New Testament we reade to have had the full exercise of all Ecclesiastick Jurisdiction ▪ that all such were Presbyteriall and not Congregationall ; We prove it thus : A Church which cannot all convene in one house for the publicke Service of God , a Church which hath more Pastours then one , is Presbyteriall , not Congregationall , according to the grounds of our Adversaryes . But all the Churches we reade of in the New Testament to have had the full exercise of all Ecclesiastick Jurisdiction , did meete in more places for divine worshippe , and had more Pastors then one . This we demonstrate of the cheife , the Church at Jerusalem , Samaria , Rome , Corinth , Ephesus , Antioch , neither can a reason be given why the rest of the Scripturall Churches should not be of the same kind . Beginne with the Mother-Church of Jerusalem . A company consisting of many thousand persons , and wanting a publicke house of meeting , could not convene into one place for worshippe : for this very day when Christians have gotten most stately and spacious Palaces for Churches , hardly one thousand can commodiously be together for solemne worshippe ; and if we looke to the practise of the Adversaries , a few scores of men will be a large Church . As for the State of the Church at Jerusalem . First , It is granted that for many yeares after the Apostles , neither it nor any other company of Christians in any part of the world had a publicke place of meeting . Secondly , That this Church did consist of many thousand people , the following places prove Acts. 2.41 . The same day were added unto them about three thousand . Also chap. 4.5 . The number of the men were five thousand . And where there were so many men , if yee looke to the ordinary proportion , there were of women and children twice or thrice so many . Neither did that Church stand at the named thousands , for Acts. 5.14 . more multitudes both of men and women were added to the Church , and the number of the Disciples was yet more multiplyed , chap 6.1 Also that which we reade chap. 2.47 . The Lord added to the Church daily , seemeth to have continued for a long time . To that which is replyed by some , that a great part of the named multitudes were strangers , and not Inhabitants at Jerusalem , and so no Members of that Church ; We answer , that this is said without warrant . That of the three thousand mentioned in the third chapter , some part were strangers , we will not deny to be likely ; but that the most part were so , or that of all the thousands named in the fourth , fifth , and sixt , any one was a stranger , it cannot be proved from the Text. As for that which they bring from the 2 chap. 44. All who beleeved were together : as if the whole Church had alwayes come to one place for the publicke worshippe . We say that it was simply impossible for three thousand people , not to speake of twenty thousand and above , to meete in one private house , for they had none publicke , neither did they in the streetes celebrate their Sacraments . So we are necessitated to take the Churches being together , one of three wayes : either for the conjunction of their minds , as the following words doe import ( they continued with one accordin the Temple ) or else their meeting together must be understood distributively in divers places , not collectively in one , as the words in hand will also beare where the celebration of the Lords Supper , and breaking of bread is said to be not in any one house onely but from house to house . The Church meete thin a third way together when not all the members but the Officers with a part of the people convene in a Presbytery as appeareth from the 15 and 21 chapters . The case is no lesse cleare of the Church of Samaria Acts 8.6.10.12.14 . verses the People of that City with one accord from the least to the greatest both men and women did beleeve , in such a number that the cheife of the Apostles Peter and John , were sent from Jerusalem to assist Philip in their instruction . Could this whole City which was amongst the greatest of Canaan convene all to Gods worshippe in one private roome , or be served with one Pastor , who required for a time the attendance not onely of Philip but further of two prime Apostles ? Come to the rest . The Roman Church was one Body . Rom. 12.6 . yet so great that it could not meet in one private roome . For in the 16. chap. beside the Church which met in the house of Aquila v. 5. there are a number of houses set downe , in which , besides divers Saints named , there were many others also unnamed which worshipped with them , v. 14 , 15. So great were the multitudes of Christians then at Rome that their fame was spread over all the world . chap. 1.8 . and chap. 16.19 . In the City of Rome were many hundred thousand men , the halfe of which according to Tertullian , were Christians the age after the Apostles ; and a little after Cornelius recordeth that more then forty preachers did attend the instruction of that people who yet had no publick place of meeting . The same was the case of the Church at Corinth at its very beginning , Acts. 18.8 . It did consist of a multitude both Iewes and Gentiles ; beside all which , God had much people in that City , v. 10. which by the continuall labours of Paul for 18 monthes were converted , v. 11 , for whose instruction beside Paul , Apollos , Timotheus , a great number of other Doctors attended , 1 Cor 4.15 . not to speake of a multitude of false Teachers ; they had also a number of idle and vaine Teachers who kept the foundation , but builded upon it hay , stubble and timber . Could all these meete together in one private place ? unlesse yee would understand their meetings distributively , or for the convention of their Officers with a part of the people for discipline . Also at Ephesus was but one Church . For Acts. 20.17 . Paul called to him the Elders of that Church , in the singular ; yet that in Ephesus there was so great a number of Christians as could not commodiously serve God in one private roome , it seemes most cleare ; for in that most noble Mart Town Paul did preach whole two yeares . Acts 19.10 . yea he ceased not day nor night for full three yeares , cha . 20.31 . The feare of God fell on all that people both Jews and Gentiles , and the name of Jesus was magnified , cha . 19.19 . So great a multitude even of Scholars was converted that the Professors of curious arts alone did make a fire of Bookes to the value of 50000 peeces of silver ; so mightily grew the word of God there , v. 20. Further , in the Church of Ephesus were many Pastors ; for Acts. 20.17 . Paul called for the Elders , not one onely . That divers of these if not all , were Pastors and Doctors , it appeareth from v. 28. where they are appointed by the Holy Ghost , to be feeders of the flocke and get a Commission to oppose false Doctors , about the which they went faithfully , as the Lord beareth them witnesse , Revel . 2.2 . Now the charge of the Doctrine to try and examine false Teachers , lieth principally on preachers . This is alike true of the Church of Antioch : The hand of the Lord was in the City , and a great number beleeved , Acts 11.21 . Thereafter by Barnabas labour there was much people added , v. 24. yea , by the joyned paines of Barnabas and Paul for a yeare together , there was such a multitude converted , that the name of Christians was first imposed upon them . Here , as in the Metropolitane City , not onely of Syria , but all Asia , beside Barnabas , Paul and other Prophets , v. 27. Peter also , and many other Doctors had their residence , Gal. 2.11 . It were too long to speake of the rest of the Apostolicke Churches , whose condition was not unlike the former . Our third Argument : No Synod hath authority to impose Decrees upon an Independent Church : But some Synods have authority to impose Decrees upon particular Churches , whether Presbyteriall or Congregationall . Ergo , Particular Churches , whether Presbyteriall or Congregationall are not Independent . The Maior is not controverted ; our adverse party acknowledgeth the lawfull use and manifold fruits of Synods : They grant it is the duty of every good man , and much more of every Church , and most of all of a Synod consisting of the Messengers of many Churches , to admonish , counsell , perswade , and request particular Curches to doe their duty : But , that any company on earth , even an Oecumenicke Synod , should presume to injoyne with authority the smallest Congregation , to leave the grossest heresies under the paine of any censure , they count it absurd . Upon this ground , that every Congregation , how small soever , how corrupt soever , is an Independent body , and not subordinate to any society on earth , how great , how pure , how holy soever . The Minor thus is proved : The Synod of Jerusalem imposed with Authority , her Decrees upon the Church of Antioch . Ergo , Some Synod ; and if you please to make it universall , every lawfull Synod may impose its Decrees upon particular Churches . The Antecedent is to be seene , Acte 15.20 . It seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us , to lay no further burden on you then these things necessary . The Consequence is good , for Antioch was among the chiefe of the Apostolicke Churches ; in it Barnabas , Paul , and other Prophets inspired of God were Preachers : If this Church was subject to the Authority of Synods , what Church may plead a freedome from the like subjection ? Many things are here replied , as usually it hapneth when no solid answer can be brought : The chiefe heads of the Reply are three ; First , that the meeting at Jerusalem was no Synod . Secondly , What ever it was that it did injoyne nothing , authoritatively to any other Churches . Thirdly , That other Synods may not pretend to the priviledges of that meeting since its Decrees were indited by the Holy Ghost , and stand now in the holy Canon as a part of Scripture . To the first , we say , that the meeting at Jerusalem is either a true Synod , or else there is no paterne in all Scripture for Synods , even for counsell , or advice , or any other use . But , this were inconvenient ; for they acknowledge that Synods are lawfull meanes for many gracious ends in the Church : Now , to affirme that any Ecclesiasticke meeting is lawfull , necessary , or convenient for gracious ends , whereof no patterne , no example can be found in Scripture , were dangerous . But beside this argument , towards our adverse party , we reason from the nature of the thing it selfe . A meeting consisting of the Deputies of many Presbyteriall Churches , is a true Synod ; but , the convention at Jerusalem , Acts 15. was such a meeting . The Maior is the essence of a Synod ; there are many accidentall differences of Synods ; for according to the quantity and number of the Churches who send their Commissioners , the Synod is smaller or greater , is Provinciall , Nationall , or Oecumenicke : according to occasion , the Churches sending Commissioners , are sometime moe , sometime fewer , sometime neerer , sometime further off : also according to the commodity of place , and necessity of affaires , they come from one Church moe , and from others fewer : all these are but accidentalls , which change not the nature of the thing . Unto the essence of a Synod ; no more useth to be required then a meeting of Commissioners from moe Presbyteriall Churches . The Minor is cleare ; That the Church of Antioch and Jerusalem were moe Churches , no man doubts ; that both were Presbyteriall , it was proved before , that from both these Presbyteriall Churches , Commissioners did sit at that meeting , it is apparent from that oft cited , Acts 15. Yea , that from the other Churches of Syria and Cilicia , besides Antioch , Commissioners did come to Jerusalem , may appeare by conference of the 2. vers . of the 15. chap. with vers . 23. for that with Paul and Barnabas Commissioners for the time from the Antiochians , others also did come , it is certaine : that those others , at least some of them , were Deputed from the Churches of Syria and Cilicia , it is like , because the Synodick Epistle is directed expresly no lesse to those than to this of Antioch ; also those , no lesse than this , are said to be troubled with the Questions which occasioned that meeting . But to passe this consideration , it is cleare that in the Convention at Jerusalem were present , not onely the Commissioners of some few Presbyteriall Churches , but also they whom God had made constant Commissioners to all the Churches of the world , to wit , the Apostles ; their presence made all the Churches legally subject to the Decrees of that Synod , though they had no other but their grand and constant Commissioners to Voyce for them in that meeting . The second Answer is clearely refuted from the 28. vers . where the Decrees are not proposed by way of meere advice , but are injoyned and imposed as necessary burdens , with Authority , not onely of the Synod but of the holy Ghost . Concerning the third , we say that the meerely Divine , and more than Ecclesiastick Authority of these Decrees in their first Formation , is not made good from this , that now they stand in holy Scripture , and are become a part of the Bible ; for a world of Acts meerely indifferent , and which without doubt in their Originall had no more then Ecclesiasticke Authority , are Registred in Scripture . Was the Presbytery of Lystraes laying on of hands on Timothy any other then an act of Ecclesiastick Ordination ? The Decree of the Church of Corinth for the incestuous mans Excommunication , or relaxation after Repentance , was it any more then an act of Jurisdiction meerely Ecclesiasticke ? Pauls circumcision of Timothy , his Uow at Cenchrea , the cutting off his haire at Jerusalem , were free and indifferent actions : The nature of these things , and many moe of that kinde , is not changed by their Registring in the Booke of God. Neither also is the meerly Divine Authority of the Decrees at Jerusalem proved by this , that in their first framing they were grounded on cleare Scripture , and after proclamed in the name of the holy Ghost ; for that is the condition of the lawfull Decrees of all gracious Synods . Did not of old the Fathers of Nice , and of late the Fathers of Dort , through the inspiration of the holy Ghost , who remaineth with the Church , especially with gracious Synods to the worlds end , pronounce from the holy Sctipture their Decrees of the Godhead of Christ against Arrius , and of the grace of God against Arminius : Shall we for this cause ascribe to the Canons of Nice or Dort any greater authority then Ecclesiastick and Humane ? Howsoever , that the Apostles in framing the Canons at Jerusalem did proceede in a way meerely Ecclesiastick , and farre different from that they used in dictating of Scripture , and publishing truths meerely Divine , appeareth from this ; first , that these Canons were brought forth by much Disputation and long discourse , But , Divine Oracles without the proces of humane Ratiocinations are published from the immediate inditing of the Spirit , 2 Pet. 1.21 . The Prophesie in old time came not by the will of man , but the holy men of God spake as they were moved by the holy Ghost . Secondly , Oracles meerely Divine are published onely in the name of God , Thus saith the Lord ; but , these Canons are proclamed , not onely in the name of God , but also in the name of man , It seemeth good to the holy Ghost , and to us . Thirdly , The Oracles of God are dictated to the Church by the Ministry only of the Prophets and Apostles , and men inspired with an infallible Spirit , Ephes . 2 , 20. Being built upon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles . But , the Canons of that Synod , Acts 15. are declared to be the worke , not onely of the holy Ghost , ●d the Apostles , but also of the Elders , and of all who Voyced to them . So it is cleare , that in the making of these Canons , the Apostles , as else-where oft , did come downe from the eminent . Chaire of their Apostolike , and extraordinary authority to the lower place of Ordinary Pastors , that in their owne persons they might give an example to ordinary Pastors in what manner holy Synods might be rightly celebrated to the worlds end . Had not this been their end , how easie had it beene either for Paul or Barnabas at Antioch , without the toylesome voyage of a long journey to Jerusalem , or for Peter or John , or James , or any one of the Apostles at Jerusalem , without the superfluous paines of any convention or disputation , as infallible Apostles to have pronounced Divine and irrefragable Decrees of all the matters in question . Our fourth argument . A Church subordinate is not Independent ; but , a Parochial Church is subordinate to a Presbyteriall : For a lesser Church is subordinate to a greater , as a part to its whole wherein it is contained . Now a Parochiall Church is lesser and the least of all Churches ; a Presbyteriall Church is greater . Of the quantity , that the one is lesser , the other greater there is no doubt ; but of the matter it selfe there is question whether there be any such thing as a Presbyteriall Church . Now this was proved before and hereafter also will be more cleare ; the cheife plea here is against the second major which we prove thus : A smaller number of the faithfull is subordinate by Christ to a greater number of the faithfull . But , a lesser Church is a smaller number of the faithfull , and a greater Church is a greater number of the faithfull . The Major is proved from the 18 of Math. v. 15.16.17.18 . If thy Brother trespasse against thee , &c. Here the Lord in admonitions and Church censures institutes a subordination , a gradation , a processe from one to two or three , from two or three to moe . Understand those moe not absolutely and at randoun but in a society bound togeather by the orderly ligaments of divine policy , such as we suppose the Churches to be from the smallest to the greatest till you come to the very Church universall . Here they distinguish the Major , granting that in this place a subordination is appointed by Christ of fewer to moe within the same Church but not without it . We might oppugne the application of the distinction to the Minor , and prove that a Presbyteriall Church is a greater number of the faithfull within not without the same Church ; for a Congregationall Church may not unfitly be compared with a Presbyteriall as a part with its whole ; especially if you compare the meeting of the Officers which rule the Parish with the Presbytery , these two are not extrinsecall the one to the other ; for the Sessions , or Consistories , or Classis , are in the Presbytery which is composed of the Commissioners from Sessions as of its owne and intrinsecall Members . But leaving this , we oppugne the ground of the distinction as it lyeth in the Major , breaking the one halfe of it upon the other . The subordination of fewer to moe in the forenamed place is established say they within the same Church . Ergo , say we , without the same Church , we meane with them without the same Parochiall Church : the consequence we prove by three arguments . First , there is a like reason for the subordination of fewer to moe without the same Church as within the same ; for the cheife reason why the Lord ordaines us in admonitions to proceed from one to two or three , from two or three to a number sitting as Judges in the Session of one Congregation , is , because in the admonitions of two or three , more authority , gravity and wisedome are presupposed to be than in the admonitions of one alone : and that a Delinquent is striken with more feare , shame , and reverence by the faces and mouthes of many who sit as Judges in the name of the whole Congregation , than he would be by the mouth of two or three onely . Doeth not this power , virtue and weight of admonition increase with the number of admonishers , as well without as within the same Congregation ? For as the admonition and censure of tenne sitting in the name of one Congregation , hath greater weight then the admonition of two or three of that same Flocke who represent none but themselves ; so the admonition of thirty Ministers and Elders representing in a Presbytery fifteene Congregations , whose commissioners they are , shall have more weight then the admonition of ten which represent but one flocke : for it is according to reason , that those thirty Members of the Presbytery should exceede in wisedome , zeale , gravity , and other qualities which adde weight to an admonition , these ten which in a Session represent one Congregation , so farre as those ten goe beyond the two or three severall persons of that Congregation . Secondly , unlesse in this place be established a subordination of fewer to moe , as well without as within the same Congregation , the remedy brought by Christ will be unable to cure the ill for which it was brought . The Lords meanes will be disproportionable and unequall to its end ; but this were absurd to say of the wisest of all Physicians . The reason of the Major is this , Christ is prescribing an helpe and cure for brotherly offences ; now one may be offended by a brother as well without as within the same Congregation : and as well by many brethren as by one ; yea , as well may we be offended by a whole Church as by one member thereof : Now , if after the minde of our adverse party , the subordination of fewer to moe might not be extended without the bounds of one Congregation , the Lords medecine were not meete to cure very many ordinary and daily scandals ; for what if a man be scandalized by the neighbour Church ? To whom shall he complaine ? When the Church offending is both the Judge and party , it is likely she will misregard the complaints that are made to her of her selfe . What if a man be scandalized by his owne Church or by the most , or by the strongest part of it ? What if that Church to whom he complaineth , take part against Justice and reason with him upon whom he complaines ? It will be impossible to remedy innumerable offences which daily fall out among brethren , unlesse appeales be granted , and the subordination established by Christ be extended , not onely without the bounds of one Parish , but as farre and wide as the utmost limits of the Church universall : for upon this place is rightly grounded by the Ancients , the Authority of Synods even Oecumenick of all the Churches . Thirdly , the subordination established by Christ , Matth. 18. is so farre to be extended in the Christian Church as it was extended in the Church of the Jewes ; for Christ there alludeth to the Jewish practise . But so it is , that in the Iewish Church there was ever a subordination of fewer to moe , not onely within the same Synagogue , but within the whole Nation , and so within the whole Church Universall : for all Synagogues everywhere in the world were under the great Councell at Ierusalem . No doubt of the Minor ; the Major is builded upon this ground , that what ever Christ hath translated from the Synagogue to the Church , especially if it be of naturall equity , hath as great force now amongst Christians , as of old among the Iewes . Now , that the subordination of Synagogues to the great Councell is of naturall equity , it appeareth thus : A Synagogue was the lowest Ecclesiasticke Court , the Councell was the highest ; but the subordination of the lowest Court to the highest , is of naturall right ; for Nature hath ever dictated to all Nations , as well in things civill as religious , a subordination of the lowest to the highest . Our fifth Argument : That which taketh away all possibility of any effectuall remedy against Heresie , Idolatry , Schisme , Tyranny , or any other mischiefe that wracks either one or moe Churches ; is not of God : for God is the Author and conserver of truth , purity , union , order , liberty , and of all vertue ; God of his goodnesse and wisedome hath provided for all and every one of his Churches meanes and remedies , which if carefully made use of , are sufficient to hinder the first arising of Heresie , Schisme , or any other evill : and when they are risen to beate them downe ▪ and abolish them : so that what ever cherisheth these mischiefes , and is a powerfull instrument to preserve them safe , that none with any power , with any authority , for any purpose , may get them touched , that must be much opposite to the Spirit of God , and good of the Church : But , such is Independencie , as both reason and experience will prove . Behold first severall Churches ; Suppose , which too oft hath falne out , that the Pastor become a pernicious Hereticke ; let him beginne with the venome of his Doctrine to poyson the hearts of his people , what shall be the remedie ? Independency bindes the hands of Presbyteries and Synods . Pastors of Neighbouring Congregations , have no power to binde , or expell that ravenous wolfe : in the destroyed flock there is no Pastor , but the wolfe himselfe . Be it so that the people in their judgement of discretion perceive well enough the wickednesse of the false doctrin whereby they are corrupted ; yet the office , charge , and authority to cure their Pastors disease , lyeth not on them . The Spirits of the Prophets are subject to the Prophets : the Pastor is not to be proceeded against with censure by the people of his flocke ; for so the order which God hath established in his Church , should be inverted , if they whom hee hath commanded to obey should rule : and they whom he hath set above and over the flocke , should be under it . Further , Suppose the Pastor to be most gracious , what if the flocke , or the greater part of the flocke become so wicked as to abuse their Pastor , or to abuse the most godly of the Congregation ? What if a wicked spirit of Heresie , Schisme , or Tyranny , set the most part of the flocke against God , against their gracious Pastor , and the godly of the flocke , what shall be done in this pitifull , and very possible , yea , oft contingent case ? Ind●pendency closeth the doore of the troubled Congregation , that no man may goe out to cry for any powerfull helpe to neighbours , though their kindled house should burne them all to death ; within there is no remedy ; for all most goe there by the number of voyces , and the most part oppresseth the best , the most wicked go on against the Councells , the intreaties , the prayers of the rest , and cease not till they have either corrupted or cast out their Pastor , Elders , and all of their fellow-members who are constant in goodnesse , that so their wickednesse without controle may domineere in the whole subdued Congregation . So long as Independency standeth , no effectuall authoratative or powerfull helpe can possibly be found for the preservation of any single Congregation against ruine and totall subversion . Further , Independency hazards the being of all Churches as well as of every one . For who shall hinder any member of a corrupted Congregation to infect all the neighbour Churches with the poyson of his doctrine and manners ? If a ramping Lyon , a viperous Serpent , a crafty Fox should goe and devour all the Lambs of the neighbour flocks ; Independency doth hinder any order to be taken with that limbe of Sathan , no sword of censure can be drawne against him , he must be referred absolutely to his owne Congregation ; other Churches may intreate , advise , and pray him not to make havoke of them : but should he trouble , infect , and destroy twenty , an hundred , a thousand neighbour Congregations , no Ecclesiastick censure may passe upon him but by his owne Church : and when complaints of him come to his owne Church , his misdeedes there are excused , defended , commended ; his Heresies are proclamed sound doctrine his devouring of soules is declared to be zeale and painfulnesse to win soules to CHRIST . Our Argument is backed by experience , as well as by reason ; The first Independent Church we reade of , was that company which Mr. Browne brought over from England to Middleborough ; how long did it stand before it was destroyed by Independency ? when once Anabaptistick novelties , and other mischiefes fell among them , there was no remedy to prevent the companies dissolution . When Mr. Barrow and his fellowes , assaied at London to erect their Congregation , the successe was no better ; their Ship scarce well set out was quickly splitupon the Rocks , was soone dissipate and vanished . When Johnstoun & Ainsworth would make the third assay , and try if that tree which neither in England nor Zealand could take roote , might thrive in Holland at Amsterdam , where plants of all sorts are so cherished , that few of the most maligne qualite doe miscarry ; yet so singular a malignity is innate in that seede of Independency , that in that very ground , where all weedes grow ranke , it did wither : within a few yeares new Schismes burst that small Church asunder : Johnstoun with his halfe , and Ainsworth with his made severall Congregations , neither whereof did long continnue without further ruptures ; Behold who please , with an observant Eye these Congregations which have embraced Independency , they shall finde that never any Churches in so short a time have beene disgraced with so many , so unreasonable , and so irreconcileable Schismes . Against these inconveniences they tell us of two remedies , the duties of charity , and the authority of the Magistrate ; but the one is unsufficient , and the other improper The duties of charitie are but mocked by obstinate Hereticks and heady Schismaticks ; to what purpose are counsells , rebukes , intreaties imployed towards him who is blowne up with the certaine perswasion that all his errors are divine truthes , that all who deale with him to the contrary are in a cleare error , that all the advices given to him are but the words of Satan from the mouthes of men tempting him to sinne against God ? As for the Magistrate , oft he is not a Christian , oft though a Christian , he is not Orthodoxe , and though both a Christian and Orthodoxe , yet oft either ignorant or carelesse of Ecclesiasticke affaires ; and however , his helpe is never so proper and intrinsecall to the Church , that absolutely and necessarily she must depend thereupon . Now all our Question is about the ordinary , the internall , the necessary remedies which Scripture ascribes to the Church within it selfe , as it is a Church even when the outward hand of the Magistrate is deficient or opposite . Our sixth and last Argument : That which everteth from the very foundation the most essentiall parts of discipline , not only of all the reformed , but of all the Churches knowne at any time in any part of the world , till the birth of Anabaptisme , it can not be very gracious . But , this doth Independency : The Minor is cleare by induction : That the Government of the Scottish Church by Synods , Presbyteries and Sessions sworne and subscribed of old , and late by that Nation in their solemne Covenant ; that the same discipline of the Churches of France , Holland , Swiiz , Geneva , as also the Politie of the High Dutch and English , and all the rest who are called Reformed , is turned upside downe by Independency , no man doubts ; for this is our Adversaries gloriation that they will be tied by no Oathes , Covenants , Subscriptions : they will be hindred by no authority of any man , no reverence of any Churches on earth , to seperate from all the reformed , that so alone they may injoy their divine and beloved Independency . If you speake of more ancient times , either the purer which followed the Apostles at the backe , or the posterior impurer ages ; that the Politie of these times in all Churches , Greeke and Latine , is trodden under foote by Independency , all likewise doe grant : and how well that new conceit agreeth with the discipline practised in the dayes of Christ and his Apostles , or in the dayes of Moses and the Prophets , the preceding arguments will shew . I confesse such is the boldnesse of the men , against whom we now dispute , that although they glory in their contempt of the authoritie of all men , dead and living : yet they offer to overwhelme us with testimonies of a number , as well ancient as late Divines : But who desire to see all that dust blowne back in their own eyes who raised it , and the detorted words against the knowne mind and constant practise of the Authors , clearely vindicated and retorted , let them be pleased to take a view of Mr. Pagets Posthume Apologie , where they will finde abundant satisfaction in this kinde . For the other side , a great bundle of arguments are also brought ; we shall consider the principall . First : To whom Christ hath given the right of excommunication the greatest of all censures , they in all other acts of Jurisdiction , and in all acts of Ecclesiastick discipline , are Independent : But Christ hath given the right of excommunication to every Congregation , and to these alone . Ergo , &c. They prove the Minor. Unto the Church Christ hath given the right of excommunication Mat. 18. Goe tell the Church , if he heare not the Church , let him be to thee as an Ethnicke : But every Congregation , and it onely ▪ is the Church , because in the whole Scripture the word Church where ever it is not taken for the Church universall , or invisible , is ever understood of a single Congregation , which in one place with one Pastor serveth God. Answer . Passing the Majors , we deny the Minors , and affirme that no where in Scripture the word Church may be expounded of their Independent Congregation , and least of all in the alledged place ; If we will advise either with the old or late Interpreters , or with the best and most learned of the Adversaryes themselves , who affirme with us that by the Church Math. 18. no Congregation can be understood , unlesse we would bring in among Christians most grosse anarchy , except we would set down on the Judgment seates of the Church every member of the Congregation , men , women , young , old , the meanest and weakest part of the people to decide by the number , not the weight of their voyces the greatest causes of the Church , to determine finally of the excommunication of Pastors , of the nature of haeresie and all doctrine , and that with a decree irrevocable from which there may be no appeal , no not to an Oecumenicke Synod . Wherfore beside the rest of the Interpreters a great part of the Adversaries by the Church in this place understand no whole Congregation , nor the most part of any Congregation , but a select number thereof , the Senate or Officers who cognose and discerne according to the Scriptures . This is enough for answer to the argument : but if further it be inquired , the Senate of which Church is pointed at in this place , whether of a Parochiall Church , or Presbyteriall , or Nationall , or Oecumenicke , or of all these . Ans . It seemeth that the Senate of all the Churches must here be understood , and especially of a Presbyteriall Church , at least not of a Parochiall onely and independently as our Adversaries would have it . By no meanes will we have the Session of a Parish prejudged , and are well content that the authority of Parochiall Sessions to handle their own proper affaires should be grounded upon this place ; onely we deny that from this place a Church-Session hath any warrant to take the cognition of things common to it selfe with the Neighbouring Congregations , or yet to governe her proper affaires absolutely and independently so that none may attempt to correct her when she erreth , or by censure to put her in order when she beginneth by heresie schisme and tyranny to corrupt her selfe and others . That in this place principally the Senate of a Presbyteriall Church is understood , is cleare ; for of such a Church Christ here speaketh , as were the Churches at Jerusalem , Antioch , Corinth , and others in the new Testament which we proved before to have bin presbyteriall . The Senate of such Churches attending on government , and discipline , is here called the Church , as elsewhere , Act. 5.20 . It seemed good to the Apostles , Elders and whole Church : The Church met to cognosce on the questions from Antioch , cannot be understood of all the thousand Christians at Jerusalem ; it must then be taken of the Presbytery to which the cognition of such questions doth belong . In the fourth verse of the same chapter , Paul is said to be received of the Church , the word may well be expounded not of the whole Body , but of a select number thereof ; even the Presbytery ; as in the 21 he is said to be received of the Apostles and Elders , before the multitude had met together . Only observe that however we affirme the Senate of a Presbyteriall Church cheifely here to be established , yet we understand not this in a way independent from provinciall , Nationall , or Oecumenick Synods ; for all these meetings in their owne place and order are also grounded on this passage , as before hath beene declared . Their second Objection : The practise of the Church of Corinth , approved by the Apostles is the due right of every Parochiall Church and single Congregation : But , the censure of Excommunication was the practise of the Church of Corinth approved by the Apostle , 1 Cor. 5.12 , 13. Do we not judge them that are within ? therefore put away from you that wicked person . This judgement is authoritative , and this putting away is the censure of Excommunication , cutting off from the body of Christ , which censure is here committed unto the Corinthians , being gathered together in one , vers . 4. and so to them all , and every one of them : for to them all the Epistle is written , and not to the Presbytery onely . Answ . The Maior must be denied for two causes ; First , The practise of the Corinthians was grounded not onely upon the expresse command of the Apostle , but also on the singular presence of the Apostles Spirit and authority with them in pronouncing the sentence of Excommunication against that incestuous person , v. 3. I as present in Spirit have judged already . This singular priviledge of the Corinthians is not a ground of common right to every Church who wants the authority of the Apostles expresse command , and singular presence . Secondly , we may not argue from the Church of Corinth to every Congregation ; for it is proved before , that the Church of Corinth was not Congregationall , but Presbyteriall , consisting of so many as could not meete commodiously in one private roome ; also it had within it selfe a Colledge or Senate of many Pastors , Elders , and Prophets ; to such a Church we grant willingly the exercise of all acts , both of Ordination and Jurisdiction . The Minor also cannot be admitted but with a double distinction ; the act of Excommunication is given to the Church of Corinth , not according to its whole , but acording to the select part , to wit the Presbytery thereof . It maketh nothing against this , that the Epistle is written to the whole Church ; for what is written to the whole Church indefinitely , must be applied according to the matter and purpose , sometime onely to the Pastors excluding the people : sometime onely to the people , excluding the Pastors : sometimes to both together , to Pastors , and Flock . The first Epistle , Chap. 1. vers . 12. Every one of you saith , I am of Paul , I am of Apollos , and I of Cephas ; this cannot be taken of the Pastors , but of the people following Schismatically some one , some another of the Pastors . Likewise , Chap. 4. vers . 1. Let a man so count of us as of the Ministers of Christ , must be taken of the people , as Chap. 3. vers . 12. ( Now if any man build on this foundation gold , silver , precious stones ) is to be understood of the Pastors , as Chap. 4. vers . 2. Also it is required in Stewards that a man be found faithfull ; but the most of the other places are to be expounded of both . Now that the preceding passages concerning the Church-censures , are not true of the whole Congregation , it appeares ; for beside the absurdity of confusion & Anarchy , it would follow that very women have right judicially to Depose , and Excommunicate by their voyces their Pastors , which the very Adversaries professe to reject as absurd , albeit not congruously to their Tenets ; for it is not reasonable that the right which from these places they ascribe to every member of the Church , should be taken away from women , upon this onely reason that in 1 Tim. 2.11 . a commandement is given to the women not to teach , but in silence to learne ; for as the brethren of our Adversaries , the Anabaptists have marked , that place taketh away from women the publicke charge of Preaching , but not of speaking in judgement or giving their voyce in Church-judicatories . Surely , nowhere absolute silence in Church-judicatories is injoyned to women , we truly give the power of witnessing , and of selfe-defence as well to women as to men in all Church-judicatories . However that the censure of the incestuous man was not inflicted by the whole Church , it appeares from the 2 Epist . Chap 2. vers . 6. Sufficient to such a man was the punishment which was inflicted of many . Who were these many but the Officers who were set over the Church in the Lord ? Another distinction also would be marked , that whatsoever right we ascribe to the Church of Corinth , whether according to its whole , or according to any of its parts , whether we take it for a Presbyteriall or a Parochiall Church , all that right is to be understood not absolutely , nor independently , which here is the onely question . For the Church at Corinth had no greater priviledges then the Church of Antioch . Now that in a dubious and controverted case , and in a common cause the Church of Antioch was subordinate unto a Synod , it was before proved . Their third objection . That which the Holy Ghost gives unto the seven Churches of Asia , must be the right of every single Congregation . But , the Holy Ghost gives unto the seven Churches of Asia all Ecclesiasticke Jurisdiction within themselves . Revel . 2.2 . Thou canst not beare with them which are evill , and thou hast tryed them which say they are Apostles , and hast found them lyars . And ver . 14. I have a few things against thee , because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam . And ver . 20. I have a few things against thee , because thou sufferest the woman Jezabell to teach . Here the Churches of Ephesus , Pergamus , and Thyatira , are praysed , when they proceeded with censure against those who deserved it : and are dispraysed when they held in the sword of excommunication , and did not cast out Hereticks and prophane Persons . Answ . Both the Propositions are vitious : The Major because the Churches in Asia were Presbyteriall , not Congregationall . This we proved of Ephesus , and we know no reason why the rest should not be of that same condition . Secondly , Albeit the Churches of Asia at that time in the first preaching of the Gospell , and so in the great paucity of Churches should have had no Neighbours with whom commodiously and ordinarily they could keepe society : what is that unto the Churches of our dayes who live in the midst of many Sisters ? The Minor also may not be granted ; for that which the Text ascribeth to the Angell , may not by and by be applyed to every Member of the Church . We grant that great reason and many authorities doe prove and evince that the Angells in those places cannot be expounded of the single persons of Bishops , but of the whole Body of the Presbytery in the which there was one man chosen by the Suffrages of the rest President for a time ; but that by the name of Angell should be understood every Member of the Church , no reason will carry it . Beside , there is no consequence from one act of reproofe to the whole right of Ecclesiasticke government even in every case ; for a common cause and an appearance of errour and many other things , will inforce a necessity of subordination . Their fourth argument : The right of the Church of Thessalonica and Colosse belongs to every Church : But , the Church of Thessalonica and Colosse had right to exercise every part of Ecclesiasticke discipline within their owne bounds . Of the first , see 2 Thessalonians 3.6 . Withdraw your selves from every Brother which walketh disorderly , and ver . 24. Note that man , and have no company with him that he may be ashamed . Of the second , see Col. 2.5 . Joying and beholding your Order . Ans . Let the Maior be true of all the Churches of the same Species and Nature with these of Thessalonica and Colosse , that is , of all Presbyteriall . That the Church of Thessalonica was such , that it had moe Pastors , it is proved from the 1 to the Thessalonians 5.12 . Know them which labour among you , and are over you in the Lord and admonish you : that these were Pastors , it is the minde of the best Interpreters . Also that in Colosse , beside others , Epaphras and Archippus did labour in the word and doctrine , is manifest from chap. 1. ver . 7. and chap. 4.17 . Further , let the Maior be true of all Churches of that same state and condition with those named , to wit , when it falls out that few or no Neighbour Churches can be had with which such a society may be kept . Concerning the Minor , suppose that both the right and the exercise of all Ecclesiasticke acts were granted to the foresaid Churches , yet the question is not touched except you adde independently and in every cause and case even of aberration , and that without all remedy of appeale to any Synode ; Vpon this hinge the Question depends , and of this the argument hath nothing . Their fifth argument : That which abolishes our liberty purchased by Christs blood , and puts upon out necke a yoke equall to the Antichristian tyranny of Bishops , is intolerable : But , the dependence of Congregations upon Presbyteries and Synods doth so . Ans . The Minor is false ; for the subordination of Churches imports no slavery & taketh away no liberty which God hath granted ; it is Gods Discipline and Order , it is the easie yoake of Christ not to be compared with the cruell bands of Bishops , since the one is humane , the other divine : by the meanes of the one , one man commandeth , either according to his free will , or according to the Canon-Law of the Pope ; but by the meanes of the other , moe men advise in common according to the acts of the Reformed Churches grounded upon the Word of God : The judgement seates of Bishops are meerely externall to the Church which they governe : But , Presbyteries and Synods are Courts internall , for the onely members whereof they consist , are the Comissioners of the Churches which they govern ; these Churches they represent , the minde and desire of these Churches they doe propose , unto these Churches they give account of all their administration , they confirme and establish the rights of Congregations , they doe not abolish nor labefactate any of them . Sixthly , These who have power to chuse the Pastor , have also the right of the whole Ecclesiastick Discipline . But every Parish hath that power . Answ . The Major is not necessary ; for there is a great difference betwixt the Election of Ministers , and Ministers Ordination , Deposition , Excommunication , and many other acts of Discipline : Election is no act of Authority or Jurisdiction . The Minor also is not true , if you understand it of all the members of the Congregation ; for it is not needfull that Ministers should be chosen by the expresse voyce of every man , muchlesse of every woman of the flocke : Yea , that Election doth not alwayes belong to the whole flocke , except yee take election as many seeme to doe , for a consent with reason , to the which is opposed , not every , but a rationall dissent grounded upon cleare equity and justice : certainely it is needfull at sometimes to misregard the peoples consent in chusing of a Pastor , for why should not a flocke infected with heresie be set under an wholesome and Orthodox Shepheard whether it will or not , and be rent from under the Ministrie of an hereticall Shepheard , how much soever against its owne minde ? Their seventh argument : That is not of God which maketh Pastors Bishops of other mens Diocesses , and layes upon them the care of other Congregations then those to which the holy Ghost hath made them Overseers : But , the subordination of Parishes to Presbyteries and Synods doth this . Answ . The Minor is false , for neither doth every member of a Presbytery become a Pastor to every Congregation subordinate to that Presbytery , neither are Congregations consociated and conjoyned in a Presbytery altogether , without the reach of the care and inspection of neighbour Pastors . This is cleare , not onely by the arguments formerly deduced from Scripture , but by the daily practice of the Adversaries ; for themselves professe their care to oversee , and admonish , and rebuke , and to use many other gracious actions as they have occasion , towards neighbouring Churches , without any blame of busie Bishops , There is almost no difference at all of their acts and ours toward neighbouring Churches , so farre as concernes the matter ; the onely question is concerning the fountaines and grounds of these acts , they ascribing their actions onely to charity , we not to charity alone , but to authority grounded upon the former reasons : This difference belongs not to the present plea. Their eight argument . Onely Christ hath authority over the Kingdome of God , the House of God , the holy Jerusalem , his owne Spouse , his owne Body . But , every single Congregation is the Kingdome of God , &c. Answ . Passing by the Minor. The Major is false and Anabaptisticke : for by the same reason the Anabaptists exempt from all authority both Ecclesiasticke and Civill , not onely every Congregation , but every single person who are the members of Christ and his Spouse , and in whom the Kingdome of God doth dwell . The high and excellent stiles of honour which the Scripture gives not onely to whole Churches but to every particular Saint , exempts neither the one nor the other because of their immediate subjection to God and Christ , from the bonds and yoake of any authority , either Ecclesiasticke or Civill , which the Lord hath appointed in holy Scripture . Christs internall government of soules by his Spirit albeit never so immediate , taketh not away the externall administration of men either in the Church or Common wealth . Who please to see much more upon this Question , let them consult with Mr. Rutherfoord his Peaceable Plea , with Appolonius and Spanheim , with the Author of Vindiciae Clavium , especially with the Divines of the Assembly , their Answers to the Reasons of the dissenting brethren ; of purpose I have abstained from making use of any of these Writings at this time , waiting for the Independents last Reply for their Reasons , and the Modell of their positive Doctrin which they have made the world to waite for too too long a time . CHAP. XI . The thousand yeares of Christ his visible Raigne upon earth , is against Scripture . AMong all the Sparckles of new light wherewith our Brethren doe intertaine their owne and the peoples fancie , there is none more pleasant then that of the thousand yeares ; a conceit of the most Ancient and grosse Hereticke Cerinthus , a little purged by Papias , and by him transmitted to some of the Greeke and Latine Fathers , but quickly declared , both by the Greek and Latine Church to be a great error , if not an heresie . Since the dayes of Augustine unto our time , it went under no other notion , and was imbraced by no Christian we heare of , till some of the Anabaptists did draw it out of its grave : for a long time after its resurrection , it was by all Protestants contemned ; onely Alstedius , after his long abode in Transilvania , began in his last times to fall into likeing with some parts thereof , pretending some passages of Piscator for his incouragement . Alstedius Heterodox Writings were not long abroad when Mr. Meade at Cambridge was gained to follow him : yet both these Divines were farre from dreaming of any personall raigne of Christ upon earth : onely Mr. Archer , and his Colleague , T. G. at Arnheim , were bold to set up the whole Fabricke of Chiliasme , which Mr. Burrowes in his London Lectures upon Hosea doth presse as a necessary and most comfortabe ground of Christian Religion , to be infused into the hearts of all children by the care of every parent at the Catechising of their family . Our Brethrens mind in this point , as I conceive , they have Printed ; is this , That in the yeare 1650. or at furthest , 1695. Christ in his humane nature and present glory is to come from heaven unto Jerusalem where he was crucified ; at that time the heaven and earth , and all the workes therein , are to be burnt and purged by that fire of conflagration , mentioned by Peter , 2 Epist . Chap. 3. At the same time all the Martys , and many of the Saints both of the Old and New Testament are to rise in their bodies ; The Jewes from all the places where now they are scattered shall returne to Canaan and build Jerusalem : in that City Christ is to raigne for a full thousand yeares ; from thence he is to goe out in person to subdue with great bloodshed by his owne hand all the disobedient Nations ; when all are conquered , except some few lurking in corners , then the Church of Jewes and Gentiles shall live without any disturbance from any enemy , either without or within ; all Christians then shall live without sinne , without the Word and Sacraments or any Ordinance : they shall passe these thousand yeares in great worldly delights , begetting many children , eating and drinking and injoying all the lawfull pleasures which all the creatures then redeemed from their ancient slavery can afford . In this Earthly happinesse shall the Church continue till the end of the thousand yeares when the relicks of the Turkish and Heathenish Nations shall besiege the new Jerusalem , and Christ with fire from heaven shall destroy them : afterwards followeth the second resurrection of all the dead good and bad for the last judgement . Thus farre the Independent Preach and Print : further Cerinthus himselfe went not , if you will except the Polygamy and sacrifices of the old Israelits . What truth may be in these things , let the arguments which are usually brought ▪ either pro or contra , declare . Against the mentioned Tenet I reason , first , He that remaines in the heaven unto the last Judgement comes not downe to the earth a thousand yeare before the last Judgement . But , Christ remaines in the heaven unto the last Judgement . Ergo. The Maior is unquestionable ; the Minor is proved from the Article of our Creede . From that place he shall come to judge the quicke and the dead , importing that Christ from the time of his ascention doth abide in the heaven at the right hand of the Father , and commeth not downe from that place to the earth till he descend in the last day to judge the quicke and the dead . I know they are not moved with the authority of any humane Creed , yet they would doe well to speake out their minde of this Article , as they doe of some others . Surely to say that Christ shall come from heaven in his humane nature , to abide a thousand yeares on the earth , and then to returne againe to the heaven , that he may discend the third time from the heaven in the last day to judge the quicke and the dead , is so evident a perverting of that Article that Mr. Mead their great Doctor and leader in this Tenet , to eschew it , falleth into a very strange and singular conceit , wherein I doubt whether any of the Independents will be pleased to follow him ; with all other Orthodox Divines he makes but two commings of Christ from the heaven to the earth ; the first at the Incarnation , the second at the day of Judgement : but this day of Judgement he extends to a round thousand yeares , and this day to him is the onely time of the Millenary raigne . We neede not refute this fancie ; for the best arguments which are brought for it , are some testimonies from the Talmudicke Rabbins , and these , as I conceive , understood against the true sence of the Authors . The streame of Scripture and Reason runne more against this conceit then any other part of Chiliasme , as the most of the Chiliasts themselves will confesse . However , what I brought from the Apostolick Creed of Christ his aboade in the heaven till the last day , I prove it from Scripture , Acts. 3 21. Whom the heavens must receive till the time of the restitution of all things which God hath spoken by the mouth of all the holy Prophets since the world began . This place proveth clearely the aboade of Christs body in the heaven till the time of the restitution of all things . So much our Brethren grant , but they deny our assumption that the time of the restitution of all things is the last day ; this therefore we prove not by the Testimony of all the reformed , who unanimously bring this place as a maine ground against the Papists and Lutherans in the questions of Transubstantiation and Ubiquity , but by three reasons from the Text it selfe . First , that time here is understood when all things that are spoken of by all the Prophets , are performed : But , all things spoken of by all the Prophets , are not performed till the last day . Master Burrowes alleadgeance that all the Prophets are frequent and large upon the Raigne of the 1000 yeares , but rare and sparing upon the doctrine of the last Judgement and life eternall , might well have beene spared for the one halfe of it , and left to the Socino-Remonstrants ; but suppose it were all true , yet if any of the Prophets have spoken any thing at all of the last Judgement , as the Apostle Jude puts it out of question even of Enoch it is cleare that the time of the performing of all things , which any of the Prophets have spoken , cannot possibly exist before the last Judgement , as we may see Rom. 8. ver . 21. compared ver . 18.23 . where the restitution of the creatures to their desired liberty comes not before the redemption of our bodyes , and the glory to be revealed upon the whole Church at the last day . Secondly , the time here spoken of is when the Jewes to whom Peter did speake , were to be refreshed , by the Lords presence ; but this shall not be before the Generall resurrection ; for the Chiliasts doe maintaine that all the Jewes shall not rise , neither that any of them to whom the Apostle did then speake , shall be partakers of the first resurrection , unlesse some of them who were Martyres ; for the honour and Glory of this first resurrection , the most of them make it so rare and singular a priviledge , that Daniel himselfe does not obtaine it but by a speciall promise . Thirdly , The time when God doth solemly before Men and Angels declare the absolution and blotting out of the sinnes of all his people , is not before the last day . But this is the time whereof the Apostle Peter speakes in the present place , as appeares by the 19 verse ; That your sinnes may be blotted out , when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. Take but one other place for Christs aboade in the heaven till the last day . John 14.2.3 . I goe to prepare a place for you , I will come againe and receive you to my selfe , that where I am there you may be . Behold Christ goes to the heaven and comes backe againe but once , for this very end , to take his Disciples with him , not to abide with them upon the earth , but to place them in the Mansions of his Fathers House in the Heavens , which he went to prepare for them , wherein all the time of his absence he himselfe was to remaine . A Second argument we take from Christs sitting at the right hand of God. This errour how innocent soever it seeme to some , yet it perverts the true sence of sundry articles of our Creed , and forceth its followers to coyne new and false senses to a great many Scriptures whereupon these articles were builded . This was the reason why neither Piscator nor Alstedius nor Mead when they laide too fast hold upon some of the branches of Chiliasme , yet the bulke and roote of that Tree , Christs comming downe to the earth in his humane nature a thousand yeares before the last day , they durst never touch : but our Brethren have more venturous Spirits , they see much further then their Masters , they scruple nothing to make all these things popular and Catecheticke doctrine . The reason I spoke of , is this , Christ sits at the right hand of God till the last day . Ergo , he comes not to reigne on earth a thousand yeares before the last day . The consequence is builded upon this Proposition , Christs sitting at the right hand of the Father is not in earth but in heaven , which many Scriptures prove . Ephes . 1.20 . He set him at his own right hand in heavenly places . Heb. 1.3 . He sat downe at the right hand of the Majesty on high . Heb. 8.1 . He is set on the right hand of the Throne of the Maiesty in the heavens . The antecedent I prove thus , He sits at the right hand of God till all his enemies be made his footstoole . So speakes the Psalmist , Psal . 110.1 . But all his enemies are not made his footstoole till the last day : for till then , Satan , Sinne , Death , and all wicked men are not fully destroyed . Our third argument we take from the resurrection of the dead . All the Godly at Christs comming from heaven doe rise immediately to a Heavenly Glory . Ergo , none of them doe arise to a Temporall glory of a thousand yeares upon earth . The antecedent see in Heb. 9.28 . Vnto them that looke for him shall he appeare the second time without sin unto salvation . Christ hath but two times of comming to the earth , first in weakenes to die upon the Crosse ; The second time in glory to give eternall Salvation without distinction to all beleevers who looke for his comming . Also 1 Thes . 4.14 . Them which sleepe in Jesus , will he bring with him . The Lord himselfe shall discend from heaven with a shout , and the dead in Christ shall rise first ; then we which are alive shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meete the Lord in the ayre , and so shall we be ever with the Lord. The ground of comfort which the Apostle propounds to the Thessalonians for all their dead , as well Martyrs as others , was their resurrection , not before the Lords comming with the voice of the Archangell , but at that time when all the dead in Christ without exception do arise , and non of them abide on the earth , but all are caught up in the ayre to meete the Lord , and all remaine with him eternally thereafter without any separation . See also , 1 Cor. 15.22 . In Christ shall all be made alive , but every man in his owne order ; Christ the first fruits , afterward they that are Christs at his comming ; then commeth the end when he shall have delivered up the Kingdome to God. The Apostle here speakes of the Resurrection of all , and particularly of the Martyrs such as with the Apostle dyed daily and every houre were in jepoardy and fought with Beasts ; although he professes to distinguish the diversity of order that might be in this great worke of the Resurrection : yet he affirmes that these who are Christs , do not arise till his comming ; and his comming he makes not to be till the last day when Christ renders up his Oeconomicke Kingdome , having destroyed all his enemies , especially death , & fully perfected the work of his mediation . This Resurrection is after the sound of the last Trumpet , when all the godly rise , and are changed , and put on incorruption and immortallity , when death is swallowed up into victory , and the godly inherit the Kingdome of God ; these things are done at the last day , not a thousand yeares before it , as John 6. Christ avoweth thrice , in the end , ver . 39.40.44 . I will raise him up at the last day . At that time the judgement is universall , both of the godly and wicked ; and the execution of both their sentences is immediately by the present glorification of the one and the destruction , of the other as we have it Math. 25.31 . When the Son of man shall come in his glory , before him shall be gathered all Nations ; and he shall separate them one from another , as a shepheard divideth his sheepe from the Goats . Fourthly , we reason from the nature of Christs Kingdome . The conceit of the thousand yeares makes Christs Kingdome to be earthly , and most observeable for all worldly glory ; but the Scripture makes it to be Spirituall without all wordly pompe ; neither doth the Word of God make the Kingdome of the Mediator of two kindes , and of a different nature , but one , uniforme from the beginning to the end , Luke 1.32 . The Lord shall give him the throne of his Father David , and he shall raigne over the house of Jacob for ever . 1 Cor. 15.25 . He must raigne till he have put all things under his feete ; here there is but one Kingdome , and one way of ruling , a Kingdome meerely Spirituall , and nowise worldly . Luke 17.20 . The Kingdome of God commeth not with observation , neither shall they say loe here , or loe there , but the Kingdome of God is within you . John 18.36 . My Kingdome is not of this world ; if my Kingdome were of this world , then would my servants fight ; but now is my Kingdome not from hence . Rom. 14 17. The Kingdome of God is not meate and drinke , but righteousnesse , peace , and joy of the holy Ghost . Ephes . 1.20 . He raised him from the dead and set him at his right hand in heavenly places , and hath put all things under his feete , and gave him to be head over all to the Church . The Millenaries make his Kingdome to appeare in Armies and Battells , in feasts and pleasures , in worldly pompe and power , and will not have his Kingdome to stand in any of that spirituall power which since his ascention he hath executed on principalities and powers , or shall performe upon the soules of men , till these thousand yeares of worldly power and earthly glory visible to the eyes of men shall begin . We take our fifth argument from the nature of the Church ; Scripture makes the Church of God so long as it is upon the earth to be a mixed multitude , of Elect and Reprobate , good and bad , a company of people under the crosse and subject to various temptations , a company that hath neede of the Word and Sacraments , of Prayer and Ordinances , that hath Christ a High Priest within the vaile of heaven interceding for them . But , the Doctrine in hand changes the nature of the Church , and makes it for a thousand yeares together to consist onely of good and gracious persons , without all trouble , without all Ordinances , without any neede of Christs intercession . For the first , That Scripture makes the Church alwayes to be a mixed company , See Matth. 13.40 . As the tares are gathered and burnt in the fire , so shall it be in the end of the world . The Sonne of man shall send forth his Angels , and they shall gather out of his Kingdome all things that offend and that doe iniquity : and vers . 49. So shall it be in the end of the world , the Angels shall come forth and sever the wicked from among the just . Also , Chap. 24.11 . Many false Prophets shall arise and deceive many , & because iniquity shall abound , the love of many shall waxe cold . Luke 18.8 . When the Sonne of man commeth , shall he finde faith upon the earth ? These places declare the mixture of the wicked with the godly in the Church to the worlds end , and most about the end . As for Crosses , See Psal . 34.20 . Many are the afflictions of the righteous . Mat 5 4. Blessed are they that mourne and that are persecuted for righteousnesse . Acts 14.23 . By many tribulations we must enter into the Kingdome of heaven . Rom. 8.17 . If so we suffer with him , that we may be glorified together . 2 Tim. 3.12 . All that will live godly in Christ Jesus , must suffer persecution . Heb. 12.6 . Whom the Lord loves , he correcteth , and he scourgeth every child that he receives . Many such places shew the condition of the Church in this life that she is ever subject to tribulation . Concerning Ordinances , that they must continue to the last day , See Ephes . 4.11 . He gave some Pastors and Teachers for the perfecting of the Saints for the worke of the Ministry , for the edifying of the body of Christ till we all come to a perfect man. And for the continuance of the Sacraments , 1 Cor. 11.26 . As often as you eate this bread and drinke this cup , yee doe shew the Lords death till hee come . That in the most godly while they live on earth , sinne doth remaine , and that alwayes we have neede of Christs intercession in the heaven with the Father , it is cleare from 1 John 1.8 . If wee say we have no sinne , the truth of God is not in us . And Chap. 2. ver . 1. But if any man sinne , we have an Advocate with the Father . Heb. 9.24 . Christ is entred into the heaven it selfe now to appeare in the presence of God for us . Thus the Scripture describes the condition of the Church on earth ; but the Doctrine in hand alters much the nature of it for a great part of its time here : for of the 2650 yeares which they give to the Church from the comming of Christ to the last judgement , they make her to consist for a whole thousand yeares only of godly persons , without the mixture of any one wicked ; and all the millions who are borne in the Church in that large time , they are free from their birth to their death of all crosses , of all sorrowes , of all temptations , and as it seemes of all sinne also ; for that is the time of the restitution of all things when old things are past and all things become new : They make them to have neede neither of Word nor Sacraments , or any Church-Ordinance , neither of Christs Intercession in the heavens with the Father ; for they have him among them in the earth , and they are freed from all sinne ; and all misery . A sixth Argument . Scripture makes the time of Christs second comming to be secret and hid , not onely to men , but to the very Angels , and to Christ himselfe as he is man , Marke 13.32 . But of that day and that houre knoweth no man , no not the Angels which are in heaven , neither the Sonne , but the Father . But this Doctrine makes that day open , and tells the time of it punctually ; for they make the thousand yeares to begin with the 1650 yeare , or else with the 1695. and the day of Judgement to be at the end of the thousand yeares ; so if their count doe hold , every child in the Church might tell us that Christ will come to Judgement in the beginning of the 2651 yeare , or at farthest in the beginning of the 2696. A seventh Argument . The reward of the Martyrs is eternall life in the heavens , promised to them at Christs comming to judge the just and the unjust . Ergo , It is not temporall in an earthly Kingdome of a thousand yeares . The Antecedent is proved from Matth. 5.10 . Blessed are they that are persecuted for righteousnesse , for theirs is the Kingdome of heaven . 2 Tim 4.6 . I am now ready to be offered , and the time of my departure is neare ; I have fought a good fight ; I have finished my course ; henceforth is laid up for me a crowne of righteousnesse , which the Lord the righteous Judge shall give at that day , &c. The reward that Paul expects after his Martyrdome , is the Crowne which Christ at the last day gives to all that waite for his comming at that time when he takes ven-geance on the wicked , as we have it 2 Thes . 1.6 , 7 , 8 , 9.10 . where the rest and retribution of the Martyrs , of Paul himselfe and those who at that time were troubled for the Gospell , is said to be at Christs coming to take vengeance in flaming fire on all the wicked , and to be glorified in all the Saints , and admired in all them that beleeve which without all doubt is not before the last Judgement ; and if it were otherwise , the Martyres would be at a losse ; for instead of a reward , a punishment should be put upon them , their condition should be made worse then that of the common Saints , who during the time of the thousand yeares remaine in the heavens among the Angels , beholding and injoying the Trinity , while the soules of the Martyrs are brought downe to the earth , and returne to a body , not like to the glorious body of Christ , nor unto these incorruptible , immortall , Spirituall bodies , which yet are promised to the least of the faithfull at their resurrection , 1 Cor. 15. but unto such a body that eates , drinkes , sleepes , fights , delights in fleshly pleasures , and converses with beasts and earthly creatures , in such a Paradise whereof the Turkish Alcorane and the Jewish Talmud doth speake much ; but to a godly soule is very tasteles , and to a soule that hath beene in heaven , or to one that injoyes the presence of Christ , is exceeding burthensome and bitter . An eight reason . The opinion of the Millenaries supposeth the restauration of Jerusalem and of the Jewish Kingdome after their destruction by the Romans . But , Scripture denies this , Ezek. 16.53 , 55. When I shall bring againe the captivity of Sodome and her daughters , and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters , then will I bring againe the captivity of thy daughters in the midst of them . When thy Sister Sodome and her daughters shall returne to their former estates , and Samaria and her daughters shall returne to their former estate , then thou and thy daughters shall returne to your former estate . The Jewes are never to be restored to their ancient outward estate , much lesse to a greater and more glorious Kingdome . Ierusalem was to be rebuilded , and the spirituall glory of the second Temple was to be greater then the first ; and in the end of this same chapter , the restitution of the Iewes after the Babylonish captivity , by the vertue of the new covenant is promised ; but the outward estate of that people was never to be restored to its ancient lustre more then Samaria , or Sodome , as Amos speakes of Samaria , chap. 5.2 . The Virgine of Israel is fallen , she shall no more rise . And Isaiah of Jerusalem , The transgression thereof shall be heavy , and it shall fall and not rise againe , according to the Prophesie of Iacob , Gen. 49.10 . The Scepter shall not depart from Iudah till Shiloh come . Importing that the Tribe of Iudah should ever have some outward visible rule till the comming of Christ in the flesh ; but thereafter the Scepter and power of the Church should be onely spirituall in the hand of Shiloh the Messias ; he was the substance and the body of all these Types , the restauration of Ierusalem and the erecting of a new Monarchy in Iudah , for the Iewes , were to bring backe the old evanished shadowes contrary to the doctrine and nature of the Gospell . One other reason . The Millenaries lay it for a ground , that Antichrist shall be destroyed and fully abolished before their thousand yeares beginne ; but Scripture makes Antichrist to continue to the day of Judgement . 2 Thes . 2.8 . Then shall that wicked man be revealed whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of his mouth , and shall destroy with the brightnesse of his comming . The brightnesse of Christs comming is not before the last day , as before is proved . See also , Revel . 19.20 . The beast was taken , and with him the false Prophet ; these both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with Brimstone . Compare it with vers . 7. Let us be glad and rejoyce , for the Marriage of the Lambe is come . Antichrist is cast alive into the lake at the Marriage of the Lambe ; no living men are cast into hell before the last day ; and Christs Marriage with his Church is not solemnized with a part of the Elect , but with the whole bodie at the generall resurrection . For the opposite Tenet divers Scriptures are brought ; above all , Rev. 29 4 , 5 , 6. And I saw the soules of them that were beheaded for the witnesse of Jesus , and they lived and raigned with Christ a thousand yeares ; but the rest of the dead lived not againe till the thousand yeares were finished ; this is the first resurrection . Hence they do infer Christs personall reigne upon earth for a thousand yeares ; also the resurrection of the Martyrs , and of some others a thousand yeares before the generall resurrection : Divers such conclusions doe they draw from this place . We Answer , First , that the resurrection here is mentioned onely occasionally ; also this place , as the most of this Booke , is Mysticall and Allegoricall ; besides , it is without all controversie , the words cited are among the most obscure and difficult places of the whole Scripture ; the most of the places alleadged in the former arguments did speake of the resurrection purposely and at large ; also in proper termes , without any Tropes or Figures , and were all cleare without obscurity ; it is not reasonable to bring an Argument from one place where a point is handled onely by the way and that in Mysticall and exceeding obscure termes , against a multitude of places wherein the matter is handled of purpose largely and clearely . Secondly , they who from this place reason against the common Tenet , doe differ all of them among themselves in sundry materiall conclusions , the old Chiliasts from the late , and the late one from another Alstedius , Mead , Archer , Goodwin , Burrowes , Matton ; every one of them have their proper conceits wherein they differ from the rest , as will be found by any who compare their Writings . Thirdly , In all this Chapter there is not one syllable to prove Christs being upon the earth , but that one word of the Saints reigning with Christ . Suppose the Text had expressed that they who did reigne with Christ , had beene upon earth themselves ; this would not prove that Christ ( because they are said to raigne with him ) was upon earth with them ; for Rom. 8.17 . If children , then joynt-heires with Christ , if so be● that we suffer with him that we may be also glorified together . There is here in one verse three paralell phrases with that in hand , Heires with Christ , Suffering with Christ , Glorified with Christ ; and a fourth , Ephes . 1.3 . Who hath blessed us with all Spirituall blessings in heavenly places in Christ ; Will it hence follow that Christs humane nature was then upon earth with them who suffered with him , were heires with him , were blessed in him in heavenly places with all spirituall graces , and were to be glorified with him ? if none of these foure phrases imply a personall presence of Christ upon earth with men , much lesse will the place controverted doe it ; for they speak expresly of men living upon the earth , but it speakes as expresly of the soules of men that were in the heaven ; the same that are mentioned , Revel . 6.9 . I saw under the Altar the soules of them that were slaine for the Word of God. This place then is so farre from proving Christs personall presence upon earth , that it imports the contrary , both because they that are said to reigne with him , were not upon the earth , but under the Altar in heaven ; and also because in vers . 11. Christs Throne whereupon he judges the quicke and the dead , is mentioned after the raigne of these thousand yeares . Now we have proved from many Scriptures that Christ remaines in the heavens till he come downe in the last day to sit upon that Throne . Fourthly , We deny that there is any thing in this place which imports a bodily resurrection . They can produce no scripture where the first resurrection is ever applyed to the body ; there be sundry places to prove a spirituall resurrection of the soule , from the death and grave of sinne , of errors and corruptions , before the last resurrection of the body , Coll. 2.12 . You are risen with him through fayth : also 3.1 . If then ye be risen with Christ &c. But a first resurrection of the body no scripture intimates ; for so there should be not onely a first and second , but a third resurrection , as they tell us of a first , second , and third comming of Christ to the earth . Further , the resurrection here spoken of is attributed to the Soules of them that were beheaded ; these are not capable of a bodily resurrection , in propriety of speech ; and if to these soules , men at their owne pleasure without any warrant from scripture , will ascribe a body , they fall into a great inconvenience : for their love to this imagined first resurrection of the body , they overthrow both the heaven and the hell which hitherto have beene beleeved ; and make no scruple to create a new heaven and a new hell of their owne invention , to the dangerous scandall of all Christians . Master Archer seeing well the absurdity to bring a soule from heaven backe again to an earthly condition , tells us plainely That no soule at all went ever to that which we call heaven ; That the Soule of Christ at his death , and of the good theife went onely to an Elementary Paradise , a place below the Moone , in the region of the ayre , or at highest in the Element of the fire ; That Enoch and Elias are gone no higher ; That no soule of any of the Saints goes to the third heavens where Christ is , unto the last day . As for hell , he tells us that all Christians but the Independent his followers , have beene in an error about it ; he teaches that the hell whether the wicked now goes , is not that fire prepared for the Divell and his Angells , whether at the last Judgement they shall be sent ; but onely a place of prison in the Low region of the aire , or in some part of the Sea , where the soules of the wicked are kept till the day of Judgement ; but at the day of Judgement , he tells us of a second hell , very large , and farre higher then the present heaven of the Saints , the whole body of the foure Elements , all the heavens of the Planets and fixed Starres , and what ever else is below the third heavens the habitation of God ; he turnes it all into the first Chaos , and makes all that confused body without any distinction , to be hell . In all this , the man is so confident , as if there were nothing in these strange novelties to be called in question . Fifthly , We deny that in this place there is one syllable for any earthly Kingdome . They shall reigne with Christ , therefore they shall reigne with him upon earth : this is an addition to the Text. For , suppose the words did import a reigning upon earth , yet this would not inferre an earthly reigne , for the Kingdome of Christ is spirituall ; like his Preisthood , and these two are here conjoyned , ver . 6. They shall be Preists of God and of Christ , and shall reigne with him . Christians on earth are Preists , but not to offer bodily sacrifice ; and while they are upon earth they are Kings , but not to rule mens outward estates : for if so , then there should be all these thousand yeares many more Kings then Subjects . Master Archer tells us confidently without any scruple , that not the Martyres alone , and some few priviledged Saints , as his Colleague T. G. would have it , but that all the godly without any exception , shall rise and be Kings to rule and judge the Saints , who shall be borne in the thousand yeares , Suppose it should be no disparagement for all these who then shall be borne , to be excluded , while they live from all places of authority and power : yet would it not be some piece of disorder to have more Kings to command then Subjects to obey , for I suppose that the godly of all by-gone ages arising together will be many more then the Saints in any one age of these thousand yeares . Sixthly , we deny that a thousand yeares in any propriety of speech , can be applyed to Christs Personall reigne ; for if we speak of his reigne either in his nature or Person , it is eternall , and not to be measured by any yeares or time ; and if we speake of his regall office as Mediatour , it must be much longer then a thousand yeares ; for although we should cut off from his Monarchy all the yeares that are past since his birth to this day , which were much against the currant of scripture , since all this while he hath beene sitting upon the Throne of his Father David , and ruling his Church as King and Monarch thereof ; yet it were uncomely to confine the time of his reigne to come to a thousand yeares ; this were too small an endurance for his Monarchy . Many humane Principalities , sundry States and Empires which have beene and this day are in the world , might contend for a longer continuance , for this cause it seemes to be that Master Archer the most resolute Doctor in this question that I have met with , makes the thousand yeares we debate of , to be onely the evening of Christs Personall reigne ; but to the morning therof wherein at leisure all the processes of the Last Judgement are gone through , he ascribes a great many more yeares , readily another thousand ; and why not two or three or more thousands ? It is good to be wise to sobriety ; arrogant curiosity and presumptuous wantonnesse of wit ●s detestable , though in the best men . Seventhly , the place makes Satan to be bound up onely from seducing the Nations , that he should not be able as before the comming of Christ he was , to misleade the Nations of the whole world to Idolatry , a free doore then being opened to the Gospell in every Nation , for their conversion to the truth ; but our new Doctors extend the place much further ; they will have Satan bound up for a 1000 yeares , not onely from seducing Nations to Idolatry , but from tempting any person to any sin ; this is contrary to these Scriptures which makes every Saint in all ages , to fight not onely with flesh and bloud , but with Principalities and Powers : which makes Satan always to goe about like a roaring Lion seeking whom he may devoure ; and that so boldly that in the very presence of Christ , he doth seeke to winnow the best of his Disciples : yea , the place in hand gives to Satan in the very time of the thousand yeares , so great power upon multitudes of men who never were sanctified , but ever his vassalls , led by him at his will , that he makes them compasse the holy City , and the Campe of the Saints to fight against God , till fire from heaven did destroy them . Beside this famous place , Master Archer , Master Mattoun and T. G. in his glimps , bring a number of other scriptures for their Tenet , wherewith we neede not meddle : for Master Petree , and Master Hayne in peculiar treatises have answered them all ; onely the cheife of them , which Master Burrows in his treatise upon Hos . 1. is pleased to chuse out , we will consider . He builds much upon Daniel . 12. as if it did prove the resurrection of some of the godly to an earthly glory a thousand yeares before the last Judgement ; he borroweth from the glimpse foure arguments , word by word ; there is a fifth also in the glimpse , which the most of that party doe much insist upon ; the first is taken from the second verse of that 12 chap. At the last Judgement say they , all shall rise ; but , in that place , many doe rise , not all . Answer . We prove that the Prophet speakes here of the last resurrection , by two grounds which our Brethren will not deny . First , the resurrection unto life eternall is onely at the last day ; but the resurrection whereof Daniel speakes , is expresly to life eternall ; not that prior resurrection which out Brethren aime at , to a temporall Kingdome of a thousand yeares . Secondly , the resurrection of the wicked to eternall shame , is onely at the last day ; for according to our Brethrens Doctrine , the wicked have no part of the first resurrection , and rise not till the thousand yeares be ended ; now , the resurrection whereof Daniel speakes in verse 2. is expressely of the wicked to shame and death , as well as of the godly to life and glory . As for their Argument from the word Many , it proves not that all did not rise , but onely that these that did rise , were many and a great multitude . Therefore Deodate Translates the words well according to the sence of the Originall , The multitude of these that sleepe in the dust . The Collectives , omnes & multi , are sometimes Synonemy's , according to the matter in hand ; as omnes must sometimes be taken for multi ; so multi must sometimes be taken for omnes . Secondly , They reason from the third verse , that in the last resurrection the bodies of all the Saints shall shine as the Sunne : But , in the resurrection whereof the Prophet speakes , no body shines as the Sunne , but some as the Starres , others as the Firmament . Answ . The preceding verse evinces unanswerably , that the Prophet here is speaking of the last resurrection to life everlasting ; as for the argument , it doth not follow that they who here are said to have so much glory , may not elsewhere be said to have more ; for that which here the Prophet intends to expresse is not the absolute but the comparative glory of the Saints ; however the least disciple should shine as the Sunne , yet if ye compare his glory with the greater light of an other , you may expresse the glory of both in the similitude of lightsome bodies lesse glorious then the Sunne , if so these bodies differ one from another in degrees of glory ; for all that the Prophet here aimes at , is onely this difference of glory . Christ in the Gospell makes all the Saints to shine as the Sunne , yet the Apostle 1 Cor. 15.45 . distinguishing the different degrees of glory that is among the Saints , scruples not to expresse the glory of the most of them in the similitude of bodies lesse glorious then the Sunne ; There is one glory of the Sunne , another glory of the Moone , another of the Starres ; for one Starre differeth from another Starre in glory ; so also is the resurrection from the dead . Further , will our Brethren affirme that the bodies of the Saints on earth during the time of those thousand yeares , shall be so farre changed , as to shine like the Starres , and yet to eate , drinke , and sleepe ? so much glory can hardly stand with so much basenesse . Thirdly , They reason from the fourth verse ; The last resurrection is no mystery nor any secret to be sealed up to the end of the vision . But , the resurrection here spoken of , is such a mystery as must be sealed up . Answer , First , according to Mr. Burrowes expresse profession in the same place , the Argument may be inverted ; for the first resurrection to the thousand yeares of glory , he makes a Doctrine very well knowne and much insisted upon by all the Prophets before Christ ; but the Generall resurrection and life everlasting he makes to be a hid and secret Doctrine which the Prophets in the old Testament doe scarcely touch . Secondly , Life eternall and death eternall , heaven and hell , are to this day very great Mysteries to the most of the world ; and Scriptures concerning these , are hid and closed above any other . Thirdly , The words speake not onely of the resurrection , but of the whole preceding Prophecie , especially of the peoples deliverance by Michael the Prince from the oppression of Antiochus , which was not much to be understood till it came to passe . Fourthly , They reason from the last verse ; Life eternall is common to all the Saints , and no singular priviledge of Daniels . But , the resurrection here spoken of , is promised to Daniel as a singular favour . Answer , Mr. Archer who is deepest learned in these Mysteries , affirmes . That all the goldly as well as Daniel , had their part in the first resurrection ; and indeede , if once you begin to distinguish , it will be hard to finde satisfactory grounds to give this glory to Daniel , and to deny it to David , to Moses , to Abraham and many others . Secondly , We may well say that life eternall albeit common to all the Saints , yet is so divine , so rare and singular a mercy to every one that gets it , that it may be propounded to Daniel and every Saint as a soveraigne comfort against the bitternesse of all their troubles . Thirdly , The place according to the best Interpreters , speakes nothing at all of any resurrection ; onely it imports a promise to Daniel to live in peace all his dayes , that notwithstanding all the troubles , of the Church which he saw in these visions ( as Diodate Translates it ) yet so farre as concerned himself he should goe on to his end , and rest , stand , or continue in his present honours and prosperous condition to his death , and 〈…〉 of his dayes . Fifthly , from the 11. and 12. verse they conclude peremptorily the beginning of these thousand yeares to be in the yeare 1650 ; or at furthest 1695 for they make the 1290 dayes to be so many yeares , and the 1335 dayes to be 45 yeares more ; these they make to beginne in the raigne of Julian the Apostate who after Constantine's death , did re-establish Paganisme in the Empire , and encouraged the Jewes to build the Temple of Jerusalem , till God hindred them by an Earthquake which did cast up the foundation-stones of the old Temple . Beginning their account at this time , the end of their first number falls on the yeere 1650 , and of the second on the yeare 1695. This is Archers calculation , which T. G. and others follow precisely . Answer , We marvell at the rashnesse of men who by the example of many before them , will not learne greater wisedome ; if they needes must determine peremptorily of times and seasons , That they doe not extend their period beyond their owne dayes , That they be not , as some before them , laughed at before their owne Eyes , when they have lived to set the vanity of their too confident Predictions ; however , in this calculation , there seemes nothing to be sound ; neither the beginning , nor the middle , nor the later end . If the thousand yeares begin in the 1650 yeare , if Christ then come in person to the earth , what will keepe him from perfecting his Kingdome to the 1695 yeare thereafter ; will he spend whole 45 yeares in warres against the Nations , before they be subdued to his Scepter ? Secondly , What warrant have they to begin their account with the Empire of Julian ? Did he set up any abomination at all in the Church of God ? He opened againe in the Territories of his Empire the Pagan Temples , which by Constantine had been closed ; by counsell and example he allured men to idolatry ; but he troubled not any Christians in the liberty of their profession , he did not set up idolatry in any Christian Congregation ; The Lord did quickly kill him and so prevented his intended persecution of Christians . But although it could be verified of him , that he did set up the abomination of desolation in the Temple ; yet how made he the daily Sacrifice to cease ? he was so far from this , that to t● uttermost of his power he laboured to set up againe the daily Sacrifice which some hundred yeares ceased . Scripture speakes onely of two times wherein the solemne sacrifice was made to cease , and the abomination of desolation was set up . First , by Antiochus Epiphanes , and then by Titus Vespasian ; but of Julian his making the sacrifice to cease , Scripture speakes nothing . That Story of the Earthquake whereupon Mr Archer builds , albeit reported by some of the Ancients , seemes to be a great fable ; Certainely , the application of it to Christs Prophesie of the Gospel , A stone shall not be left upon a stone , as if this had not been fulfilled till that Earthquake had cast up all the foundation-stones of the ancient Temple , is very temerarious . As The beginning and end of their calculation is groundlesse , so also the midst and the whole body of it is frivolous . What necessity is there to expound dayes by yeares especially in that place , where yeares are divided into dayes ? In the very preceding words , vers . 7. the dayes here mentioned , are expressed by a time , times , and halfe a time : can they shew in any place of Scripture that ever a day is put for a yeare , where yeares , and dayes are conjoyned , and a few yeares are extended in the enumeration of all the dayes that are in these yeares ? The words of the Prophet Daniel are cleare , if they be taken as they lie ; but if they be strained to a Mysticall sense , they become inexplicable . The Lord is comforting the Prophet and the whole Church by the short indurance of the desolations which Antiochus was to bring upon them ; for from the time of his scattering of the Jewes , and discharging of the solemne sacrifice , unto the breaking of the yoake of his Tyranny , it should be but three yeares and a halfe with a few more dayes : yea , unto that happy time when the plague of God should fall on his person , it should be but 45 dayes more . The History of Josephus and the Maccabees , makes the event accord with this prediction . Why then should we straine the Text any further to a new sence which neither agrees with the event nor with the words ? Another place alleadged by Mr. Burrowes , is Psalme 102.16 . When the Lord shall build up Sion , he shall appeare in his glory ; As if this did import both the building againe of Sion and also Christs glorious appearance upon the earth . Answer . This place speaks of no such things ; the ordinary Exposition of late and old Interpreters , agrees so well with the contexture of the whole Psalme , that to drive it farther , were needlesse , the place speakes of the Babylonish Captivity , and of the earnest desire of the godly at that time to have Jerusalem and Sion then in the dust , againe restored . This desire of the Saints is granted , and a promise is made to them that Sion should be againe builded , and that the Lord by this act of mercy should get great glory . But for any third building of Sion after the dayes of the Messias , or for any personall raigne of Christ upon earth , no syllable in this place doth appeare . His next place is Rom. 11.12 . If the fall of them be the riches of the world , and the diminishing of them be the riches of the Gentiles ; how much more their fullnesse ? Ans . There is nothing here for the point in hand : we grant willingly that the Nation of the Jewes shall be converted to the fayth of Christ ; and that the fullnesse of the Gentiles is to come in with them to the Christian Church ; also that the quickning of that dead and rotten member , shall be a matter of exceeding joy to the whole Church . But That the converted Jewes shall returne to Canaan to build Jerusalem ; That Christ shall come from the heaven to reigne among them for a thousand yeares , there is no such thing intimated in the scriptures in hand . Master Burrous fifth place , is Acts 3.20 , 21. He shall send Iesus Christ whom the heavens must receive unto the times of the restitution of all things . Ans . That these words are to be understood of Christs comming to the last Judgement , and not of his comming to any Temporall Kingdome on earth , we did before prove . His sixth place , is 2 Pet. 3.10.13 . But the day of the Lord will come as a Theife in the night , in the which the heavens shall passe away with a great noyse , and the Elements shall melt with fervent heate ; the earth also and the works that are therein , shall be burnt up : neverthelesse we according to his promise , looke for new heavens and a new earth wherein dwelleth righteousnesse . Ans . First it would be remembred that our Brethren do adde among many other things , this also unto the Tenet of the old Chiliasts , That before their golden age the earth and all things therein must be destroyed ; That the earth wherein they are to reigne , that the Beasts , Foules , Fishes , Trees and all other creatures they are to make use of in their thousand yeares , are to be of new created , all the old creatures in their whole kindes being burnt to ashes , and destroyed . We say secondly , That this place is miserably misinterpreted ; for all that the Apostle is saying , is in answer to the scoffers cavill verse 4. requiring in scorne the performance of the promise of Christs comming , not unto this thousand yeares raigne , but to the day of Judgement and perdition of ungodly men , as the Apostle speaks expressely vers . 7. Now , all the Chiliasts confesse that this Judgement and that perdition , is not till after the thousand yeares ; so the burning of necessity according to their owne grounds , cannot precede , but must follow them . Thirdly , the time whereof the Apostle speakes , is called the day of the Lord , the usuall discription of Christs comming to Judgement ; also the day that comes on the world as a theefe in the night , which phrase oftentimes in scripture is attributed unto Christs comming unto Judgement , but is not true of his comming to the Millenary reigne : for the calculation of that time is so well knowne , that it is preached and printed to be at such a yeare , if not such a mounth or day . Also , this dissolving of the heavens and Elements with fire , is a concomitant of Christ his comming to the last Judgement , as is expressely intimated . 2 Thes . 1.8.9 . As for the words whereupon alone they ground their argument , the new Earth wherein dwells righteousnesse . As if these words could not be true after the last Judgement : no righteous man then dwelling upon the earth . If they had looked upon the originall , they would have seene the weakenesse of their collection ; for the words runne thus , We in whom righteousnesse dwells , looke for new Heavens and a new Earth ; The habitation of righteousnesse referring neither to the heavens not to the earth , but to the godly and righteous persons who did waite for the performance of the promise of new heavens and a new earth , as our late annotations doe observe ; And though you would reade them according to our English Translation , yet that inhabitation needes not referre to the earth , but to the heavens onely , as Junius well observes . For it is not in qua terra , but in quibus coelis ; and our Brethren if they beleeve Mr. Archer , must referre the Pronoune not to both the Substantives , but onely to the one ; for he teaches That during the thousand yeares no righteous soule inhabites the heaven : and thereafter , that no righteous soule does inhabit either the earth or the heavens wherein now the soules of the godly are , all these being turned into hell , the habitation of unrighteous men and divells . Mr. Burrows seventh place , Isa . 65.21 . And they shall build houses and inhabit them , and they shall plant Vinyeards and eate the fruit of them . and ver . 17. Behold , I create new heavens and a new earth , &c. Hence concluding not onely a new heaven and a new earth for the Millenary reigne , but a planting of Vinyeards , a building of houses ; which cannot be after the day of Judgement . Ans . First , Master Burrowes referres this place to the former passage of Peter ; if therefore Peters new heavens and new earth must be understood of the life to come ; Isaiahs new heavens and new earth must be understood of the same . Secondly , It s very new and harsh divinity to say that after the heavens have passed away with a noyse , and the earth with all the workes thereof are burnt up , that men shall plant Vineyards , and build houses upon the new earth ; Therefore Master Burrows notwithstanding his argument and reference of Isaiah to Peter , seemes in that same place to retract and acknowledge that the new heavens and the new earth must be expounded by a Metaphor , and import no more then the doing of so glorious things by God for the Church , in the latter days , as shall manifest his glorious and creating power , as if he did make new heavens and a new earth . This is farre from the burning of the heavens and earth that now are . It is no more then what the Apostle Peter brings from the Prophet Joel : Acts. 2.19 . And I will shew wonders in heaven above , and signes in the earth beneath , bloud and fi●● , and vapour of smoake ; the Sunne shall be turned into darknesse and the Moone into bloud . All which Peter makes to be performed upon the day of the Pentecost . It is no more then that of Haggay 2.6 . Yet once it is a little while and I will shake the heavens and the earth , and the sea , and all the dry land ; which the Apostle Heb. 12.26 , 27. makes to be performed at the first comming of Christ . Thirdly , That the matter of this 65. chap. of Isai . v. 16. is to be referred to Christs first comming , and the Apostles first pr●●ching unto the Gentiles , is cleare by comparing the first verse of this chap. I am found of them that sought me not , with the 20 verse of the tenth to the Romanes ; But Isaiah was very bold , and sayth , I was found &c. Fourthly , to expound the Prophets in this fashion ▪ were to stumble the Jewes , and to give them too great an excuse for their long misbeliefe , and too pregnant arguments for to delay their fayth while the Messias come to performe these promises upon earth , till their Ierusalem were againe builded , and they put in possession of the holy land , to build their houses and plant their Uineyeards therein ; till they saw themselves put in possession of their present carnall & legall hopes . Yea , T. G. his literall exposition of this and the like places goes beyond the most of the Iewish apprehensions . For that any of the Talmudists do dreame that at the comming of the Messias , the Lyon shall eate straw , that the Leoparde and the Lambe , the Serpent and the sucking childe shall be brought to such a sympathy of natures , as not to have the least disposition to doe harme the one to the other ; That the life of men shall be so much at that time prolonged , as one of an hundred yeares must be taken but for an Infant and a childe ; that the most fabulous of the Rabbins have gone thus farre in a litterall beleefe , I doe not know . His eight place , is Heb. 2.5 , 8. For unto the Angells he hath not put in subjection the world to come ; but now we see not yet all things put under him ; whence he inferres that Christ in the world to come , is to reigne and to have all things put under his feet , which is not now performed , the Apostle saying expressely that now all things are not put under him ; neither is this true in the life to come ; for then the Kingdome of Christ is rendred up to the Father . Ans . The world to come is not that imaginary world of the 1000 yeares , whereof the Scripture speaks no thing ; but the dayes of the Gospell of which the Apostle is there speaking , and shewing that the Gospell was administred not by Angells as the Law had beene upon Mount Sinai , but by the Sonne of God himselfe : This new world under the Gospell did differ more from the old world under the Law , then the earth in the dayes of Noah and the Patriarchs after the floud , from the earth in the dayes of Noah before the floud . This new world of the Gospell began with Christs first comming in the flesh ; it was demonstrated in his Resurrection , When all power in heaven and in earth was given to him . Math. 28.18 . When all the Angells of God did worshippe him . Heb. 1 , 6. When he was set farre above all Principalities and Powers . Ephes . 1.21 . The accomplishment of this world is not till the Last day , when Death , Hell , and Satan , which yet are not made Christs footstoole , shall fully be conquered . These things cannot be verified of the thousand yeares . For according to Mr. Burrowes grounds , before they begin , many things are annihilated , and so not made subject ; The heavens and elements are melted with fervent heate ; The earth and the workes thereof are burnt up with fire ; Also , during these thousand yeares , Christs chiefe enemies are not fully subdued ; death still hath dominion over men ; the devill is onely bound , but yet alive , and not cast into the lake . His ninth place , is Ier. 3.16.17 . They shall say no more the Arke of the Covenant of the Lord , neither shall it come to minde , neither shall they remember it ; at that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the Lord , and all the Nations shall be gathered unto it , neither shall they walke any more after the imagination of their evill heart . Hence , he inferres , A state of the Church in the Last dayes so glorious , that all things by-past shall be forgot ; That Judah and Israel shall returne from their captivity to Jerusalem ; That all Nations shall joyne with them ; That they shall no more walke after their old sinnes ; That Jerusalem which before times was at best but the footstoole of God , shall then become a throne of glory . Answer . There is no word here of Christs abode upon earth for a thousand yeares . Secondly , the old things that are to be forgotten , are expressed to be the Ceremonies of the Law , but no Ordinance of the Gospell . The Prophet names the Arke and the Temple which by Christs first comming were removed . Thirdly , The walking of Iudah and Israel together , and the Nations joyning with them , Imports no more but the calling of Iewes and Gentiles by the Gospell to the Christian Church the heavenly Ierusalem : The same which the Prophet Esay hath in his second Chap. vers . 5. The establishing ( in the Last dayes ) of the House of God on the top of the mountaines ; the flowing of all Nations thereto ; for out of Sion shall goe forth a Law , and the Word of the Lord from Ierusalem ; These Last dayes , were the dayes of the Apostles , when they from Sion and Ierusalem did blow the Trumpet of the Gospell to all the Nations ▪ These were the times whereof Ieremy in the 15 verse of the Chapter in hand doth speake . I will give you Pastors according to my heart , which shall feede you with knowledge and understanding . The Pastors there promised , were Christ and his Apostles ; better Pastors then these God never sent , neither ever shall send to his Church . Fourthly , Walking after Gods owne heart , doth not import a freedome from all sinne ; but onely a state of grace , wherein according to the new Covenant , God gives his people a newheart , and writes his Lawes upon the same . Fifthly , That whereupon the greatest weight of the argument is laid , seemes to be a very groundlesse conceit , That Ierusalem , when it is a throne of glory , must be the old Ierusalem builded againe ; as if Ierusalem under the Law , and Ierusalem in the dayes of the Gospell ( the Church in the new Testament , the mother of us all ) were but the footestoole of God. This is a doctrine expresly against Scripture ; for in divers places , Ierusalem , Sion , and the Arke , even in the old Testament , are called not onely the footstoole , but the throne of God Ier. 14.21 . Doe not abhorre us for thy names sake ; doe not disgrace the throne of thy glory . Also Chap. 17.12 . A glorious high throne from the beginning is the place of our Sanctuary . The Lord did as it were sit upon the Mercy Seate as upon a chaire of State , under the Canopy of the wings of the Cherubins within the Sanctuary the chamber of his most Majestuous presence . Ierusalem under the new Testament , is called not onely the throne of God , but his footstoole , Esay 40.13 . To beautifie the place of my Sanctuary , and I will make the place of my feete glorious . This place our Brethren expound of the Sanctuary during the time of the thousand yeares . However , it is cleare it must be expounded of the Church in the same times whereof Ieremiah speakes in his third Chapter whence the Argument in hand is brought . The tenth place is Dan. 2 44. And in the dayes of these Kings shall the God of heaven set up a Kingdome which shall never be destroyed , and it shall stand for ever . Whence , is inferred an everlasting Kingdome of Christ , & a joy of Ierusalem unchangeable to any sorrow . Answer . Christs Everlasting Kingdome , is meerely spirituall and heavenly . That dominion which the Father gave to the Son at his Incarnation , Luke . 1.32 , 33. The Lord shall give unto him the throne of his Father David , and he shall raigne over the House of Iacob for ever . This Kingdome for the matter of it , is truely everlasting , being the glory which Christ and his Saints injoy for ever in the heavens ; albeit for the manner of the administration thereof it be rendred up by the Sonne to the Father , when the worke of mediation is perfected , and all enemies are fully destroyed . To deny the beginning of Christs Kingdome over his Church , unto the thousand yeares , is many wayes absurd ; And , because of the eternall indurance of his dominion and glory in the heavens , to make the Church on earth in which he raignes , to be voide of all tribulation , of all changes , to have a perpetuall day without any darkenesse , is contrary to the Scriptures alleadged in the former arguments . In the eleventh place , he alledgeth Revel . 19.13 . And he was cloathed with a vesture dipped in blood . And Ezek. 21 28. And there shall be no more a pricking brier unto the house of Israel , nor any grieving them of all that are round about them . Whence , they inferre That in the beginning of the thousand yeares , Christ with his owne hands shall kill so many of the wicked , that his garments shall be dipped in blood , and not one of them left to trouble the Church . Answer . It is a very strange conception to make the Lord Jesus embrue his holy hands in the blood of so many men . That these battells are not fought with the hands of Christ , in a literall way , will appeare by a paralell place , Isay 63.1 . Who is this that commeth from Edom , with died garments from Bozra ? Unto Christ here are ascribed garments died in blood , because of the slaughter of the Edomites , a little after the Babylonish captivity , at which time Christ had neither a body nor a garment in propriety of speech . As these battells were fought by Christ , not in his owne person nor upon the earth ; so neither these battells of the Revel-which so much the lesse can be literally expounded , as in the 14 and 15 verses of that 19 Chapter , the instrument whereby Christ is said to fight these battells , is not any Sword in his hand , but the two-edged Sword of his mouth ; and the Souldiers whom he leads out to these battells are not armed with Sword and Speare , but ride upon white Horses , cloathed in fine linnen white and cleane . As for that of Ezechiel , if you consult either with the originall , or the best Interpreters , it must be expounded first and principally , if not solely of the Towne of Sidon which the Lord was to destroy , that it might no more be a thorne in the side of Israel . From this , to inferre the purging of the Christian Church of all other enemies in this life , and that by killing of them all as cursed Canaanites : were a dangerous conclusion , farre from the justice and innocence of Christians in all by-gone times , the beleefe whereof would quickly renew unto us the horrible tragedies of the Anabaptists . In the twelfth place , he cites Rev. 21.23 , 24. And the City had no need of the Sun , neither of the Moone to shine in it ; and the Kings of the earth doe bring their glory and honour unto it . also chap. 22. ver . 1 , 2 , 3. and he shewed me a pure river of the water of life , &c. Ans . The Divines who apply these two chapters to the condition of the Church upon earth after the calling of the Jewes , take the most of the passages in a figurative and allegoricall sence . To expound them literally and properly , of any Church on earth , the Text will not permit . Shall ever the Church on earth be so free of sorrow and death , as not to sorrow for sinne , or to have none of its members mortall ? Shall they so immediately see the face of God , as the use of Temples , Tabernacles , or any ordinance , shall be needelesse ? shall ever man upon earth , be without the Sunne and the Moone ? These things are true in a proper sence , onely of the Saints of heaven . What is here alleadged to the contrary , That the Kings of the earth bring not their riches and honours to the Heavens ; we say , it is but a part of the Allegorie , to expresse under that similitude the glory & wealth of the life to come ; as in the same place , the Spirit of God expresses the happinesse of heaven by the Metaphors of gold and pretious stones , of rivers and fountaines , of trees and fruits . To expound all these in a literall sence , of any Church either in earth or heaven , were incommodious ; except our Brethren would put us upon more fancies then any of them yet have spoke of . In the last place , they cite for the gifts of the Saints , Zach. 12.8 . He that is feeble among them , in that day , shall be like David ; and the house of David shall be as God : and for the honour of the Saints that in the thousand yeares they shall be taken into private familiarity by Princes and great men , Rev. 11.12 . And they heard a great voyce from heaven saying unto them , come up hither ; and they ascended up to heaven in a cloud , and their enemies beheld them . Ans . The gifts meant by Zachary , are such as are powred upon all the Saints of the New Testament with the spirit of grace and supplication , which makes the least of the Kingdome of Heaven to be like unto David , to Elijah , and greater then John the Baptist , as Christ speakes . But what is this unto the imaginary glory of the Chiliasticke Kingdome ? The honour they speake of , cannot be fetched out of that eleventh of the Revel . For who but themselves will expound heaven in that place , of the Thrones of Kings , of the Privie Chambers of Princes and great men ? The calling up of the two witnesses to heaven , by none else but them , will be taken for the Saints familiarity with great States-men : And according to their own Tenets , in the Chiliasticke Kingdome there is no such degrees of honour , as in this world . For there Christ in his owne Person is King , and all the Saints doe shine at least as the firmament ; and the glory of these Saints is greatest whose grace is most eminent . Familiarity with Princes and worldly States-men , is then for no purpose . Beside , the ascention of the two witnesses to the heavens , is before the fall of the tenth part of Rome , and so before the thousand yeares beginne . There be yet some more places cited by Master Burrowes and others for their Tenet ; but these which we have answered , are the principall : and if they be cleared , there is no difficulty in the rest . Besides Scriptures , Master Burrowes takes from the Glimpse of T. G. sundry testimonies of antiquity ; all which , T. G. does borrow from Alstedius . To the which I answer , That no Protestants build their fayth upon humane testimonies ; and , no men in the world make so small account of antiquity as our Brethren . It is marvellous if in earnest they should encourage themselves in their Tenet by such testimonies of the Fathers , as by the Catholick consent of all posterior antiquity and the unanimous profession both of Protestants and Papists this day , are censured of error . Who pleases to know the minde of antiquity in this subject , Let him consult especially with Augustin de civitate dei . Booke 20. almost through the whole ; and the Commentaries of Vives , and Coqueus thereupon . If humane authorities either ancient or moderne , could give our Brethren any satisfaction in this question , it were easie to present them with great store thereof . Thus farre had I proceeded when by my Superiours I was called away from these Studies to an other imployment , so what I intended to have spoken to the Anabaptists , the Antinomians , the Erastians , and especially to the remainder of the Popish and Prelaticall Malignants I must remit it to another Season . FINIS . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A29432-e190 Isa . 2. ● Mic. 4.3 . Ioel 3. ● ▪ Notes for div A29432-e8890 The first and chief Mean to extinguish the flames of our War , is the waters of the heart poured out in prayers to God. Lam. 2.3 . Reformation after mourning , is the second step to a solid peace . Prov. 16.7 . Psal . 81.15 2 King. 9.22 . The corruption of the Church is the fountain of our present Misery . The State cannot be 〈◊〉 til the Church be s●●● reformed . Every man must help what he can to recover the languishing Church from her desperate Disease . The offer of a strange and easie remedy of a ●ooking-glass The malignity of Errour . 2 Tim. 2.17 . ● Pet. 2.1 , 2 , 3 , 4 The Authors intention is to set down in a Table for the clear view of all ▪ the Errors which trouble us . And that with justice & lo●● towards all persons . Onely forth is r●ga●n●ng to the Truth . The partition of the ensuing ●reatise . Episcopacy was the Mother of all our present Sects . Presbytery will be their Grave . The Presbyteriall way of proceeding . What England 〈◊〉 may expect from Presbyteries and Synods . Notes for div A29432-e9960 Satan is the great enemy of the Churches Reformation . His chief instruments always have been professed friends to Religion . Reformation at the beginning did run with an impetuous current . What was its first stop . The fountain of Protestant D●scord . The unhappy Principle of the Lut●eranes . And the more unhappy Principle of the Anabaptists . Somewhat of both these ways was entertained in England . The original of the English Ceremonies and Episcopacy . The original of the Separatists . Brownism is a daughter of Anabaptism . Bolton , the first known Separatist in England , hanged himself . Brown , the second L●ader of that way , ●ecanted his Schism , and to his death was a very scandalous person . The humour of Barrow the third Master of this Sect. The strange carriage of Johnson and Ainsworth , the next two Leaders of the Brownists . The horrible ways of Smi●● their sixth Master . The fearful end of Smith his wandrings . A remarkable vengeance upon an erring spirit . Robinson the last grave and learned Doctor of the Brownists , did in the end undermine his Party . Robinson the author of Independency . Notes for div A29432-e12760 They hold that all Churches in the world but their own , are so polluted , that they must be separate from . Their injurious slanders of the Church of England . Yet sometimes they say that communion may be kept therewith both in preaching and prayer . Their like dealing with all the other reformed . Their st●ing of 〈◊〉 Chu● 〈…〉 The matter of a Church they make to be real Saints onely . Their unreasonable stricknesse in this one point , is the great cause of their Schism . The least sin of any Member of a Church defended , is a just cause of Separation . They place the Form of their Church in an expresse Covenant . Seven may make a perfect Church , yea , two or three . The erecting of a Church requireth , neither the Magistrates , nor Ministers assistance . They put all Church power in a handful of people , without any Pastor . The Election , Ordination , Deposition , and Excommunication of the Minister , belongs to the flock , and to it alone . Every man of the Congregation may Preach and publikely rebuke , not onely the Pastor , but the whole flock , yea and s●parate from it . Some of them give the power of the Sacraments also to pri●ate persons . The solemnizing of marriage they give to parents , but divorces they commit to the parties themselves . They make every Congregation Independent , and of soveraign Authority . Their Judgement of Synods . Their high conceit of their own way , and injurious , depressing of all others . Churches , Bells , Pulpits , Tithes , Glebes , Manses , and all set maintenance of Ministers , are unlawful . Not so much as a Church-yard must be kept up for burial , but all must bury in the fields . They drive the abolishing of Church-rents , so high as to make all goods common . The days of the we●k , the moneths , the yeer of God , they will not name . No pulpits , no hour-gl●sses , no Churches , no Gowns . All set prayer , even the Lords prayer , and all Psalms in meeter , yea in prose , if used as praises , are unlawful . Their opinion of preaching & Sacraments . Their stra●ge way of celebrating the Lords Supper . They reject catechisms , the Apostles Creed , and all reading of Scripture without exposition . After preaching , they prophesie . Then comes the conference . Brown for liberty of conscience . His followers against it Their carriage towards the Magistrate . They spoil Kings and Parliaments of their Legislative power . They obliege the Magistrate to kill all Idolaters . But to sp●re all theeves . They wil have the Universities destroyed . Secular authors and learning must be abolished . Preachers must studie no book but the Scriptures . Notes for div A29432-e19200 Independency the smallest of all the Sects of the time for number , but greatest for worth of its followers . The division of the following matter . Independents , the Separatist● off-spring . When the fire of Brownism was dying out in Holland , a little of its ashes carried to New England , broke out there into a lasting flame . By what means these ashes were kindled . Master Cotton at first a great opposite to that way . Master Cotton with little ado , became the great patron of that Errour . Master Cotton the misleader of Master Goodwin and others . Master Cotton often deceived , hath given his patrociny to divers grosse Errours . Why God permits great men to fall in evident Errours . His Prelatical Arminian and Montanistick Tenents . His Antinomy and Familism . Independency large , as unhappy as Brownism . Wherefore so much of the Independent way lies yet in darknesse . The fruits of Independency in New England . 1. It put thousands of Christians in the condition of Pagans . 2. It marrs the conversion of Pagans to the Christian Religion . 3. It did bring forth the foulest Heresies that ever yet were heard of in any Protestant Church . A few examples of the many abominable Heresies of the New-English Independents . The greatest part of th●ir chief Churches were infected with these errours . Th● pi●●ty of these Hereticks seem●d to be singular . Their malice against all who opposed them , was singular , especially against all their Orthodox Ministers , and Magistrates . Their Errours in opinion did draw on such seditious practises , as did well neer overturn both their Church and State. Their proud obstinacy against all admonitions was marvellous . In the midst of their profession of eminent piety , the profanity of many of them was great . Notwithstanding all this , we desire from our heart , to honour and imitate all and every degree of Truth or Piety , which did ever appear in any New-English Christian . Notes for div A29432-e24660 Independency no fruitful Tree in Holland . Master Peter● the first Planter of that Weed at Roterdam . Their Ministers , Master Bridge , Master Simpson and Master Ward , renounced their English Ordination , and as meer private men took new Ordination from the people . Incontinent they did fall into shameful divisions and subdivisions . The people without any just cause deposed their Minister . The Commissioners from Arnhem durst not come neer the bottom of the businesse . The Schisms at Roterdam were more irreconcileable then those at Amsterdam . Anabaptism is like to spoil that Church . They of the Church of Arnhem admire and praise themselves above all measure . The easinesse of their banishment and afflictions . The new light at Arnhem broke out into a number of strange Errours . First , Grosse Chiliasm ▪ Secondly , The grossest blasphemy of the Libertines that God is the Author of the very sinfulnesse of sin . Thirdly , the fancy of the Enthusiasts in knowing God as God , abstracted from Scripture , from Christ , from Grace , and from all his attributes . Fourthly , The old Popish Ceremonies of extreme Unction , and the holy kisse of Peace . Fifthly , The discharging of the Psalms , the appointing of a singing Prophet to chant the Songs made by himself , in the silence of all others . Sixthly , The mortality of the soul . Seventhly , the conveniency for Ministers to Preach covered , and celebrate the Sacraments discovered : but for the people to hear discovered , and to participate the Sacraments covered . Their publike contentions were shameful . Notes for div A29432-e28960 The work of the prime Independents of New England , Arnheim , and Roterdam , these five yeers at London . They did hinder with all their power , so long as they were able , the calling of the Assembly . When it was called , they retarded its proceedings ▪ That the Churches of England and Ireland lie so long in confuon , neither Papists , nor Prelates , nor Malignants have been the cause . But the Independents working according to their principles . The great mischief of that Anarchy wherin they have kept the Churches of England and Ireland for so long a time . Independency is the mother of more Hereresies and Schisms at London , then Amsterdam ever knew . Independency at London doth not onely bring forth , but nourish and patronize Heresies and Schisms , contrary to its custom either in New-England or Amsterdam . How hazardous it may prove to the State of England . Notes for div A29432-e30230 Why it is hard to set downe the Independents positions . They have declined to declare their Tenets , more then has ever been the custome of any Orthodox Divines . When they shal bee pleased to declare themselves to the full , their principle of change will hinder thē to assure us that any thing is their settled , and firm Tenet wherein they will bee constant . The chief Tenets which hitherto they have given out , and not yet recal●ed , are these following . They reject the name of Independents unreasonably , and for their own disadvantage . When it is laid aside , the more infamous name of Brownists and Separatists wil justly fall upon them . They avow a Semi-Separation , but a Sesqui-Separation will bee proved upon them . The Independents doe separate from all the Reformed Churches upon farre worse grounds then the Brownists were wont to separate . Their acknowledgment of the Reformed for true Churches doth not diminish , but encrease their Shisme . They refuse all Church communion and membership in all the Reformed Churches , they preach and pray in them as they would doe among P●gans , only as g●ft●d men to gather new Churches . About the matter of the Church and qualification of members , they are large , as strict as the Brownists , admitting none but who convinces the whole Congregation of their reall regeneration . Besides true grace they require a sutablenesse of spirit . But in this they are laxer then the Brownists , that they can take in without scruple Anabaptists , Antinomians , & others , who both in life & doctrine have evident blots , if so they bee zealous and serviceable for their way . About the forme of the Church , a Church Covenant they are more punctuall then the Brownists . They take the power of gathering and erecting of Churches both from Magistrates and Ministers placing it only in the hands of a few private Christians , who are willing to make among themselves a Church covenant . This power of erecting themselves into a compleat and perfect church they give to any seven persons , neither admit they more into a Church then can altogether in one place commodiously administer the Sacraments & Discipline . The Independents will have all the standing Churches in England dissolved , and all their Ministers to become meerly private men , and any three persons of their way to bee a full Church . Vnto this Church of seven persons they give all and the whole Church power and that independently . Vnto this congregationall Church alone they give the full power of election and ordination , of deposition and excommunication even of all their officers , and of the finall determination of all Ecclesiastick causes . The difference of Iohnson and Ainsworth about the power of the people and presbytery distinct one from the other , is not yet composed among the Independents . The common Doctrine of New England is Ainsworths Tenet , that the people a●one have all the power , & may excommunicate when there is cause all their officers . Mr Cotton the other year did fall much from them and himselfe towards Iohnson , that the whole power of authority is only in the Officers , and the people have no●hing but the power of liberty to concurre ; that the Officers can doe nothing without the people , nor the people any thing but by the Officers . Yet that both officers & people or any one of them have power to separate themselvs from all the rest when they find cause . The London Independents give more power of Ecclesiastick Iurisdiction then the Brownists unto women . Some of them permit private men to celebrate the Sacraments . Brownists and Independents do perfectly agree in the point of Independency . If a corrupt or negligent Presbytery doe not censure their own members , all the Assemblies in the world may not attempt to censure any of them , though most apparently they did corrupt a whole Nation with the grossest Heresies or most scandalous vices . The point of Independency is either the root or the fruit of many errors . To temper the crudity of this Tenet , they adde to it three moderating positions , but for little purpose . They grant the being of Synods , but not of Classicall Presbyteries . Their Synods are meerely Brownisticall without all Iurisdiction , wherein every one of the people may vote ; also meerely elective and only occasionall . The sentence of Non-Communion , is Mr Cottons invention to supply that defect which themselves make in the Ordinances of God. It puts in the hand of every man a power to sentence all the Churches of the world . It carries to the highest degree of Separation . Their supply of the defects of Independency by the power o● the Magistrate , was a remedy which they learned from the Brownists , but now they have cast it aside , denying to the Magistrate all power in matters of Religion . The Independents doe advance their fancies to as high a pitch of glory as the Brownists . They are the Brownists scholars in many more things beside the Constitution and Government of the Church . They give to the Magistrate the Celebration of marriage . Mr Milton permits any man to put away his wife upon his meer pleasure , without fault and without the cognisance of any Iudge . Mr Gorting teaches the wife to put away her husband , if he will not follow her in any new Church way which she is pleased to embrace . They are against all determinations of the circumstances of worship , and therfore all church Directories are against their stomacks . The common names of the dayes of the week , the months of the year , of many Churches and Cities of the Land , are as unlawfull to them as to the Brownists . All tithes and set maintenance of Ministers they cry down ; but a voluntary contribution for the maintenance of all their Officers , they presse to a high proportion , with the evident prejudice of the poore . In their solemn worship oft times they make one to pray , another to preach , a third to prophesie , a fourth to direct the Psalm , and another to bless the people . They make it a divine institution , without any word of preface , to begin the publike worship with solemne prayer for the King and Church . After the Pastors prayer the Doctor reads and expounds . In preaching they will bee free to take a Text or not , as they find it expedient . After Sermon any of the people whom they think able , are permitted to prophesie . All are permitted to propound in the face of the Congregation what questions upon the Sermon they think meet . About the Psalms they have divers strange conceits ; but the speciall is their new Ordinance of a singing Prophet , who in place of the Psalms singeth Hymnes of his own making in the midst of the silent Congregation . They grant the lawfulnesse of read prayer in divers cases . They will have none to be baptized , but the children of their owne members ; so at one dash they put all England except a very few of their way , into the state of Pagans turning them all out of the Christian Church , denying to them Sacraments , Discipline , Church-Officers , and all that they would deny to the Pagans of America . They open a door to Anabaptism by 3 farther positions . 1. They require in all to bee baptised a real holiness above a foederall , which in no Infant with any certainty can be found . 2. They esteem none for their Baptism and Christian education a member of their Church , till they have entred themselvs in their church covenant . 3. They call none of their members to any account before their Presbytery for obstinate rejecting of Paedo-baptism , although the Brownists doe excommunicate for that sinne . They participate with none of the Reformed Churches in the Lords Supper , yet they scruple not to communicate with Brownists and Anabaptists . Their way of celebrating the Lords Supper is more dead and comfortlesse then any where else . They have no Catechising , no preparation , nor thanksgiving sermōs , ordinarily they speak no word of the Sacrament in their Sermons and prayers either before or after . They have only a little discourse & short prayer in the consecration of both the Elements ; there after in the action nothing but dumb silence ▪ no exhortation , no reading , no Psalme . They require none of their members . to come out of their Pewes to the Table . And they acknowledge no more use of a Table then the Brownists at Amsterdam who have none at all . They teach the expediency of covering the head at the Lords Table . They are as much for the popular Government as the Brownists . All Discipline must be executed in the presence and with the consent of the whole people , & all must passe by the expresse suffrage of every one . Dissenters not only lose their right of suffrage for the time , but are subjected to censure if they continue in their dissent . They are much for private meetings , for it is in them that they usually frame the members of other mens Congregations into their new mould , but the Brownists and they of New-England having felt the bitter fruits of such meetings , have relinquished , if not discharged them . They flatter the Magistrate and slander the Reformed Churches without cause . Some of them are for the abolition of all Magistracy . All of them are for casting out and keeping out of the Christian Church all Princes , all Members of Parliament , all Magistrates of the Counties & Burroughes that now are , and that ever have been and are ever like to be hereafter , except a very few . These few Magistrates whom they would admit , have no security , but by the errour or malice of a few , to be quickly cast out of the Church without any possibility of remedy . When they have put all out of the places of Magistracy , yea out of all civill courts who are not of their mind , the greatest Magistrates they admit of , bee they Kings or Parliaments , they subject them all to the free-wil of the promiscuous multitude . When Magistrates wil not follow their new erro●●s they have bin very ready to make insurrections to the great hazard of the whole State. Many of them deny to the Magistrate any power at all in the matters of Religion . Their principles do spoile Princes and Parliaments of their whole ●egislative power ; they abolish all humane Lawes that are made , and hinder any more to be made . The Civill Lawes which Mr Cotton permits men to make , bind , no man any further then his own minde is led by the reason of the Law to obedience . They put the yoak of the judiciall Law of Moses on the neck of the Magistrate . They give to their Ministers a power to sit in civill Courts & to voyce in the Election of the Magistrats , and to draw from Scripture Civill Lawes for the government of the State. They offer ●o perswade the Magistrate contradictory principles , according to their own interest . In New England they perswade the Magistrats to kill all Idolaters and Hereticks , even whole Cities , men , women , and children . But here they deny the Magistrate all power to lay the least restraint upon the g●ossest Idolaters , Apostats , Blasphemers , Seducers or the greatest enemies of Religion . No great appearance of their respect to secular learning and Schools . Independency much more dangerous then Browni● Notes for div A29432-e41490 The Independents prime principles . Their Tenet about the qualification of members , is the great cause of their separating from all the Reformed Churches though they doe dessemble it . In this they goe beyond the Brownists . The true state of the question is whether it be necessary to separate from a Church , wherein wee get no satisfaction of the true grace of every Member at their first admission . For the Negative , we reason first from the practice of Moses & the Prophets , who did never offer to separate for any such reason . The causes of a just separation were smaller under the Law , nor under the Gospel . The weaknesse of their Reply . Our second reason , is from the example of Christ and his Apostles , who did not separate for any such causes . The third reason ; it is impossible to find true grace in every member of any visible Church that ever was or shall be in the world . The fourth , this satisfaction in the true grace of all to be admitted , is builded on foure errours , first that the power of Ecclesiastick Iurisdiction is in the hand of every one of the people . Secondly , that one man may attaine to the certain knowledge of the true grace in the heart of another . Thirdly , that it is a duty of every member of a Church to seek and finde satisfaction in the true grace of all his fellow-members . Fourthly , that all the Reformed Churches must once bee dissolved and unchurched , that they may bee reformed according to the new mould of the Independents . The fifth argument . Their Tenet is followed with divers absurdities . As first , it is necessary to separate from all Churches that are this day in the world , except it be from these of the Independents . Secondly , it was necessary to separate from all Churches that ever have been . Thirdly , there can be no rest for any till they turne seekers , and leave all societies that are called Churches . Cottons reasons to the contrary are answered . His first reason put in form . All the parts of it are vitious ▪ the conclusion proves not the question . It stands upon a chief ground of Anabaptism , and presupposes the nullity of all the Reformed Churches . The major is many wayes vitious . But the minor is the most faulty part of the Argument . The proofes of the minor are answered . The first . The second . The third and maine proof of the minor . This driveth to universall grace and Apostacy of the Saints . Yea , to Socinianisme and further . His second Argument . The Conclusion is faulty . The minor is false . It s proofe is unsufficient . His third Argument . P●eters Confession much mis-applyed . The guest without the wedding-garment more mis-appl●ed . The parable of the Tares is thrown against its principall scope . His fourth argument , that all who cannot demonstrate the truth of their regeneration , deny the power of godlinesse , is not true . His fifth , that no hypocrite is to be admitted a member of a Church , is a very rash argument . His sixth , from the roughnesse of the stones of Solomons Temple , is a wanton reason His seventh , from the porters exclusion of uncleane persons from the Temple , has no strength . His eight , that Iohn the Bapt●st excluded the Pharisees and people from his Baptism , is expresly against the Text. His ninth , that Philip required the Eunuchs confession before baptisme , infers not the conclusion . All his nine or twelve reasons p●t in one will be too weak to beare up the weight of his most heavy conclusion . Notes for div A29432-e43930 The state of the question . The first authors of this question . The Independents difference among themselves here anent . That none but Ministers may ordinarily prophecy , wee prove , it first by Christs joyning together the power of baptism and the power of preaching . Secondly , these that preach , must be sent to that work . Thirdly , every ordinary preacher labo●rs in the Word and Doctrine . Fourthly , none out of office have the gift of preaching ▪ for all who have that gi●t are either Apostl●s , Evangel●sts , Prophets , Pastors , or Doctors , and all these are officers . Fifthly , no man out of office might sacrifice . Sixthly , all who have from God the gift of preaching are obliged to lay aside all other occupations and attend that work alone . Seventhly , the Apostles appointed none to preach but Elders . Eighthly , the preaching of men out of office is a means of confusion and errour . The contrary Arguments which Mr Cotton in his Catechism and Answer to the 32 Questions , borrows from Robinson , are ; First , in the Church of Corinth men out of office did Prophecie . Ans . these men were officers or their preaching was extraordinary . Secondly , Iehoshaphat and his Princes did preach ; Answ . The Kings exhorting of the Levites to doe their duty and the Princes c●untenancing of them therein was not properly preaching . Thirdly , w●e must not despise prophecy . Ans . The Apostle speaks of the preaching of men in office . Fourthly , the sons of the Prophets did preach . Answ . Their designation to be Prophets gave them right to initiall and preparatory exercises towards that office . Fifthly , Moses wished all the people to bee Prophets . Ans . But not without Gods calling to that offi●e . Sixthly , the Apostles before the Resurrection did preach . Ans . At that time they were true Apostles and did baptise . Seventhly , Paul and Barnabas were invited to exhort . Ans . they were men in office . Eighthly , the Scribes and Pharisees did preach . Answ . They were officers and sate in Moses chaire Notes for div A29432-e45520 What is meant by Ecclesiastick Jurisdiction . The state of the Question wont to be cleare , the Reformed Churches putting the power and exercise of Jurisdiction in the hand of the Presbytery alone ; the Brownists , & Independents in the hand of the people onely ; but Mr. Cotton & his followers the other yeare have perplexed the Question with their many Schole distinctions . If they put the power of Jurisdiction onely in a Church organized and Presbyterated , they fall from much of the Brownists , and their own , both doctrine and practise . Their last and best beloved invention of the power of Authority , and power of Liberty , is for no purpose but to involve the Authors in new difficulties . As they wont to make their smallest Congregations Independent & uncensurable for any crime , so now by this distinction they divide all their Congregations in two parts , and make every one of these parts Independent also , and uncensurable for any imaginable sinne . For the negative , that the people have no power of Jurisdiction , we reason : First , the Officers alone are Governors , and the people are to be governed . 2. The people have not the Keys of Heaven to bind and loose . 3. The people are not the eyes , & eares in in Christs Body ; for so , all the body should be eyes and eares . 4. The people have not any promise of gifts sufficient for government . 5. The popular government bringeth in confusion making the feete above the head . 6. The people have not the power of Ordination . They have no Commission to send Pastours to themselves , to impose hands to examine their Pastours , to pray publickly and exhort . 7. This power in the people would disable them in their callings . 8. This power of the people would bring in Morellius democracy and anarchy in the Church . 9. This power of the people will draw upon them the power of the word and Sacrament . Mr Cottons contrary arguments answered . First , Christ gave to Peter the Keys of H●aven as to a beleever : Ans . not so , but as to an Apostle and Elder of the Church . 2. Till the Church replies that the people have power of Excommunication . Anser , The Church here to be told is the Presbytery , and not the people , according to our Brethrens own grounds . 3. The people of Corinth did Judge and Excommunicate the incestuous man ▪ Answer , Tbe Text will prove no such matter . 4. The people of Colosse might censure Archippus their Minister . Answer . there is no Word in this Text of the peoples censure . 5. The whole Church of Pergamus is rebuked for not censuring the Hereticks . Answer , The power of Censure was in the Angells , but the whole Church might be faulty in not incouraging the Angels to doe their duty . 6. The twenty foure Elders sit on Thrones with Crownes on their heads . Answer , This will not prove a regall power of judging in every one of the people . 7. The Galatians must stand fast to their Liberty . Anser , By Liberty hereinothing lesse is understood then a power of presence and concurrence in judgement without all power of Authority . 8. The whole Congregation of Israel had power to punish malefactors . Answer . What the people under the Law did in the State , is not a warrant for the people under the Gospell to doe the same in the Church . 9. The people elects their Officers . Ergo. they may depose and Excommunicate them . Answer . Election is no act of power , or of Jurisdiction . 10. The people must be present and consent to every act of Judgement . Answer , It is not so , and if it were , yet it inferres not their power of Jurisdiction . Notes for div A29432-e47540 God is the Author of the union and dependencie of particular Churches . From them Morellius and Grotius learned the Tenet . Laying aside all prejudice we will reason the matter . The state of the Question cleared . That single Congregations are not Independent is proved ; first , from the 1 Tim 4.14 . because they have not the right of Ordination . Ordination belongs to the Presbytery . No Congregation is a Presbytery . No Congretion hath within it selfe necessarily a Presbytery . No single Congregation ought to have within it selfe Pauls Presbytery . Onely Pastors lay hands on Pastors . The second Argument from the Apostolicke Churches which exercised full jurisdiction , the chiefe whereof , if not all , were Presbyteriall and not Parochiall . Such was the Church at Jerusalem . How the Church commeth together . The Church of Samaria also was Presbyteriall . So that of Rome . And of Corinth . And of Ephesus . Also of Antioch and the rest . Our third argument from the subordination of the Church of Antioch to the Synod at Jerusalem , Act. 15. Answer to the Replies . The meeting of Jerusalem was a true Synod . It doth not onely advise but command . The Decrees of that Synod at their first making had onely Ecclesiastick authority . Our fourth argument from the subordination of fewer to moe , appointed by Christ , Matth. 18. Christs subordination is to be extended to the utmost bounds of the Church universall . Our fifth argument from the evill consequents , which reason and experience demonstrate to follow Independency necessarily and naturally . Neither the duties of charity , nor the authority of the Magistrate can remedy these evills . Our last Argument , Independency is contrary to all the discipline that ever was knowne in Christendome before the Anabap●ists . The first Objection or Argument for Independency from Matth. 18. The second Objection is taken from the practise of the Corinthians , excommunicating the incestuous man. The third Objection from the example of the seven Churches of Asia . Their fourth Objection from the practise of the Church of Thessalonica and Colosse . Their fifth objection from the Episcopall tyranny of the Presbyterie . Their sixt Objection from the Congregations right to elect their Pastor . Their seventh Objection from pluralitie of cures cast upon one Pastor . Their eight Objection from Christs immediate government of his Church . Notes for div A29432-e52240 The Originall and progresse of Chiliasme . The minde of the Independent Chiliasts . Our first reason against the Chiliasts is , that Christ from his ascention to the last judgement abides in the heaven . Our second reason is builded on Christs sitting at the right hand of God till the day of judgement . Our third reason is grounded on the resurrection of the dead ; the godly and ungodly doe all rise together at the last day . Our fourth reason is builded on Christs Kingdome which is Spirituall and not earthly . Our fift reason is taken from the nature of the Church . Which ever on earth is mixt of good and evill . And subject to crosses . Having neede of Ordinances Because of her sinfull infirmities . A Sixt reason from the secresie of the time of Christs comming . A Seventh , from the heavenly and eternall reward of the Martyrs . An eight reason , the restoration of an earthly Jerusalem brings backe the abolisht figures of the Lgw. A ninth , Antichrist is not abolisht till the day of Judgement . The Chiliasts first reason is from Re●●l . 20.4 Answer Our new Chiliasts are inventors of a new heaven and of a new h●ll . Their second reason from Daniel 12. We Answer Their third argument . Answer . Their fourth place . Answer . Their fifth place . Answer . Their sixth place . Answer . Their seventh place . Answer . Their eight place . Answer . The ninth place . Answer . Their tenth place . Answer . Their eleventh place . Answer . The twelfth place . Answer . Their last place . Answer . 
A10835	----	A iustification of separation from the Church of England Against Mr Richard Bernard his invective, intituled; The separatists schisme. By Iohn Robinson. Robinson, John, 1575?-1625. 1610 Approx. 1226 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 263 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2005-03 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A10835 STC 21109 ESTC S100924 99836751 99836751 1037 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A10835) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 1037) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1475-1640 ; 1186:04) A iustification of separation from the Church of England Against Mr Richard Bernard his invective, intituled; The separatists schisme. By Iohn Robinson. Robinson, John, 1575?-1625. 95, 98-479 [i.e. 483], [1] p. G. Thorp], [Amsterdam : Anno D. 1610. Place of publication and printer's name from STC. A reply to: Bernard, Richard. Christian advertisements and counsels of peace. Pages 96, 97 missing in number only; page 483 misnumbered 479. Some pages cropped at head; many pages from 216-297 have print faded or show-through; 35-38 missing. Beginning-page 40 from Yale University Library copy spliced at end. Reproduction of the original in the British Library. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. 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Understanding these processes should make clear that, while the overall quality of TCP data is very good, some errors will remain and some readable characters will be marked as illegible. Users should bear in mind that in all likelihood such instances will never have been looked at by a TCP editor. The texts were encoded and linked to page images in accordance with level 4 of the TEI in Libraries guidelines. Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Bernard, Richard, 1568-1641. -- Christian advertisements and counsels of peace -- Controversial literature -- Early works to 1800. Church of England -- Controversial literature. Brownists -- Early works to 1800. Congregationalism -- Early works to 1800. 2004-04 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2004-04 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2004-11 Andrew Kuster Sampled and proofread 2004-11 Andrew Kuster Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-01 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion A IVSTIFICATION OF SEPARATION from the Church of England . Against Mr Richard Bernard his invective , INTITVLED ; The Separatists schisme . By ▪ Iohn Robinson . And God saw that the light was good , and God separated between the light , and between the darknes . Gen. 1. 4. What communion hath light with darknes ? 2 Cor. 6. 14. Anno D. 1610. To the Christian reader . TWo severall treatises ( good reader ) have been formerly published by several men in answer to Mr Bernards book , yet have I thought it meet to adde a third , not as able to speak more then they , but intending something further : namely , an examination of the particulars one by one , that so in all points the salve might be answerable vnto the soare ; applying my self therein to such a familiar and popular kinde of defence , as Mr B. hath chosen for his accusations , where the former answers onely intended a summary discovery of the insufficiency of his probabilities to disswade from , & reasons to disprove the things he opposeth . The zeal Mr. B. manifesteth here and every where both in word and writing is exceeding great , as all men know . And surely fervent zeale in Gods cause is a temper wel befitting Gods servants : neyther is there any more bastardly disposition to be found in a Christian , then indifferency in religion . It makes no matter of what religion the man is that is indifferent in it : for Christ vvill spue out of his mouth ( as loathsome ) the lukevvarm , whether wine , or water . Yet as the case of religion is most weighty , so is the affection of zeale in it most dangerous , if it be eyther pretended onely , & not in truth ; or preposterous and not according to knowledge . And therefore as there is singular vse of this fyery zeal for these frozen times of ours , so are we to take great heed that our fyre be kindled at the † fyre of the altar vvhich came from heavē . For as Luke . Act. 2. 23. speakes of fyery tongues vvhich came from heaven , so doth Iames , 3. 6. speak of a tongue vvhich is set on fyre of hell . And this we are the more carefully to mynd , not onely because almost all men have taught theyr tongues in the generall to speak goodly words , and that zealously also for advantage , but more specially and with respect to the busines in hand , for that many of the weaker sort have theyr tender harts rather affrighted from the truth of the Lord by the deep protestations and obtestations of their guids , then any way stablished in those perplexed pathes ( wherein they walk ) with them , by sound reasons . Now as the Lord is to be intreated for those people , that he would vouchsafe them wise and stable harts , that they may † try all things and hold that vvhich is good , and neyther suffer themselves to be withheld nor withdrawn from the truth by any such semblances of zeale , or other passion , though never so solemn and seeming never so sincere , so for theyr better direction herein I have thought it not amisse to commend vnto their godly harts two or three considerations , by way of caution , in this case . First therefore it must be considered that there are some of that hoysterous and tempestuous disposition that they can doo nothing calmly or a litle , theyr vnruly affections which should follow after leysurely do force on so violently theyr vnderstanding will , and whol man , as there is no stay with them , but in all their motions they are like vnto those beasts , which for the vnequall length of theyr hinder leggs cannot possibly goe but by leapes . Such a stormy nature , with a very litle zeal amongst , may make a great stir in the world , but is iustly to be suspected . And that especially ( which is the 2. caution ) in such men , as are suddaynly caryed , and as it were transformed from one contrary to another without eyther competent tyme or means . A suspitious course ; for all thing ordinarily whither in grace , or nature , are wrought by degrees , and the passage from one extreme to another without due means , as it can hardly be sound , so can it not possibly be vnsuspected . Now ther are many men to be found which are violent in all things but constant in none . And though all things be with thē as the figs in Ieremyes * tvvo baskets , the good very good and the evill very evill , yet are they ever shifting hands out of the one basket into the other . Today they will lift vp and advance a cause and person to heaven , and to morrow they will throw downe both it and him to the lowest hell . It is good to have such men in a godly iealousy , and there zeale with them . And that chiefly ( which I desyre may be observed in the third place ) when this theyr zeale rises and falls as the tymes serve . Almost all men will at tymes manifest zeal , but the most have this gift withall , that they wil be sure to take the strongest syde , or that part at least , which hath some hope of prevayling . And so whylst there remaynes hope of bearing things over at the breast , they are very forward and fervent in there courses ; but when that hope shaketh , theyr edg is of , and they turne theyr backs shamefully vpon the truth , yea and oft tymes theyr faces agaynst it . And herevpon it comes to passe that many ( formerly great advauncers of the cause of reformation ) have of late tymes not onely fouly forsaken , but violently opposed the same both in us and them also amongst themselves , which doe in any measure desyer it , publishing theyr books vnto the world so filled with empty words and swelling vanityes , as they not onely bewray the weaknes of theyr cause , but the evill and corrupt disposition of theyr hearts , as rather striving to manifest theyr servil● affections for insinuations into the favours of the myghty ; then to bring any thing of weight for the conviction of the adversary . The application of this I leave to the godly and wise reader , as he shall see iust cause . And so leaving those things which are more generall , I desyre in particular , and for the present purpose that the christian reader take knowledg of this one thing , that as the pretence of zeale in the forward Ministers against all corruptions is as a thick mist , holding the eyes of many wel mynded from seing the truth ; so the person with whom I now particularly deal , trusts to this insinuation above all others , conveyghing himself vnder this colour into the harts of the simple , and hereby making way most effectually , not onely for his sage-seeming counsels & advertisements , for the quenching of their affections towards the truth : but also for his idle guesses and likelyhoods , with such personall comparisons , and imputations , as wherewith his book is stored , to alienate mens harts from it . But the godly reader is to consider that † to accept the person in judgement is not good , especially in the cause of the Lord , and that * the faith of our glorious Lord Iesus is not to be held in respect of persons : but that the naked and simple truth is to be inquired after , with an vnpartiall affection . And then the Lord which gives a single heart to seek after it , will give a wise hart to find it out . Math. 7. 7. Onely let men take heed they be not as Pilate , asking vvhat is truth ? and turning their backs vpon it when they have done : nor having found it as Orpah did to Naomi , forsaking her weeping . And for my self as I could much rather have desired to have built vp my self and that poore stock over which the holy Ghost hath set me in holy peace , ( as becōmeth the house of God , wherein † no sound of axe or hammer or other toole of iron is to be heard , ) then thus to enter the lists of contention , so being iustly called to contend for the defence of that truth vpon which this man amongst others layes violent hands , I will endeavour in all good conscience ( as before God ) so to free the same , as I wil be nothing-lesse then contentious in contention , but wil count it a victorie to be overcome in odious provocations , and reproches both by him and others . And so desiring as earnestly the Christian reader into whose hands this my defence shal come , to manifest vnto me such errours in the same ( if by the word of God they may so be found ) as to receive from me such truthes , as are therin cōt●yned , I leave the due trial to that alone touchstone , & cōmit the blessing to the Lord who alone giveth wisdom , & is able to make wise to salvatiō . CERTAYN OBSERVATIONS vpon the Epistle dedicatory : & Preface to the Reader . FIrst I desire it may be observed by the reader how Mr Bern●●ileth the worshipful personages , vnder the wing of whose protection he shrowdeth his papers Christian Professors . A title peculiar to some few in the land , which favour the forward preachers , frequent their sermons & advance the cause of reformatiō . Such persons are cōmonly called amongst themselves professors , vertuous and religious , & thereby distinguished fro the body of the land , which make no such profession , and are therefore accounted ( and iustly ) prophane , and without religion , and that as roundly by Mr. B. as by any other in the Land. But it seemeth he had forgot both his Epistle & whom both he in it , and others every where , call Professors for distinction sake , when he wrote his book ; for in it † he makes all the kingdome professors at a venture , and Christian professours I hope he meaneth . Thus those whom he severeth in the Epistle , he confounds in the book . And let him wel consider how he can quit himself eyther from flatterie in the one , or from vntruth in the other . And where ( Mr Ber. ) in the body of the Epistle , you seat your self in the middest between the schismatical Brownist ( as you charitably term him ) & the Antichristiā Papist , the one snatching on the right hād , and the other on the left , it is something which you say , and more belike then you are aware of . Fitly may you be seated in the middest betwixt both , being indeed a minglement & compound of both , and wel may both snatch at you , and yet neither do you wrong , if neyther require more then their owne . Iustly may the Papists challenge from you that stinted service book , devised Ministerie , Antichristian Hierarchie , and Babylonish confusion which you have stollen away from them , as “ Rahel did her Fathers idols though she covered them never so close . And iustly also may we chalenge from you such godly people as you fraudulently deteyn , and such truthes of doctrine as you teach , as being the peculiars of the true Church : as the holy vessels were of the temple * though violently with the people caried to Babylon and there kept . But if you will still hault betwixt both , as † Israell did betwixt God and Baal , and carry in your right hand many Evangelicall truthes with vs , & in your left many Antichristian devises with the Papists , no marvell though both partyes remayne vnsatisfyed ; neyther must you be offended , though the Papists for the truthes you hold with vs account you hereticks , nor though we for the devises you reteyn with them call you Antichristian . And so you see your midle standing betwixt them and vs more wayes then one . And thus much of the Epistle dedicatory . In the next place I come to the preface : where amongst other iust complaynts of the iniquityes of the tymes , you reckon ( and that worthily ) as the most daungerous Atheisticall security & carnall living vnder a generall profession , to which purpose you alledg 2 Tim. 3. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. and so instance in your English people : This place of Timothy alone had you well weyed , and throughly improved especially the fifth verse , where separation from such persons ( as having a shew of godlines do deny the power thereof , as you confesse the English people do ) is expresly commaunded , it would eyther have stopped your mouth from reproching vs as you do for separation , or els have opened the mouth of the most simple reader to reproue your vanity , as God did the mouth of the asse to reprove Balaam . The next thing I observe is how vauntingly you bring as chalengers into the lists Mr. Gyshop , Mr Bradshaw , D. Allison and other vn-named Ministers , all which you say are vnanswered by vs. And no marveil , for sundry of their writings never came to our hands , and besides it were a more equall and compendious way for these men to take vp the defence of their Churches cause , where their fellowes have forsaken it , and left it desolate , then thus to make new chalenges , though in truth with the same weapons ( it may be new frubbished over ) wherewith the other have lost the field . Yet are theyr books and ( by the grace of God assisting ) shal be answered in particular as they come to our hands , and are thought worthy answering : though in truth it were no hard thing for our adversaries to oppresse us with the multitude of books considering both how few and how feeble we are in comparison ( besides other outward difficultyes ) if the truth we hold which is stronger then all , did not support it selfe . The difference you lay down in the next place touching the proper subject of the power of Christ is true in it selfe being rightly vnderstood , and onely yours wherein it is corruptly related , and specially in the particular concerning vs , as , that where the Papists plant the ruling power of Christ in the Pope ; the Protestāts in the Byshops ; the Puritants , as you terme the reformed Churches & those of theyr mynde in the Presbytery ; we ( whome you name Brownists ) put it in the body of the Cōgregatiō , the multitude called the Church : odiously insinuating against us that we do exclude the Elders in the case of goverment , where on the contrary we professe the Byshops or Elders , to be the onely ordinary governours in the Church , as in all other actions of the Churches communion , so also in the censures . Onely we may not acknowledge them for † Lords over Gods heritage , as you would make them , * controuling all , but to be controuled by none ; much lesse essentiall vnto the Church , as though it could not be without them ; least of all the Church it self , as you and others expound Math. 18 : But we hold the Eldership , as other ordinances given vnto the Church for her service , and so the Elders or officers “ the servants and ministers of the Church the wife , vnder Christ her husband , a● the scriptures expresly affirm . Of which more hereafter . And where further you advise the reader to take from the Iay other birds feathers , that is , as you expound your self , to set vs before him as we differ from all other Churches . Therein you make a most inconsiderate and vnreasonable motion . If a man should set the Church of England before his eyes , as it differeth but from the reformed Churches , it would be no very beautiful bird . Yea what could it in that colour afforde , but Egyptian bondage ; Babylonish confusion ; carnal pomp ; and a company of Iewish ; Heathenish , and Popish ceremonies ? Whatsoever truth is in the world it is from God , and from him we have it , by what hand soever it be reached vnto vs † Came the word of God unto you onely ? & vnto it we have good right as the Israel of God , unto whom he hath committed his oracles . Rom. 3. 2. Towards the end of the Preface you do render two reasons vpon which you do adventure to deal against vs as you do , the one cōfidence in your cause , the other the spirituall injury which some of late have done you , in taking away part of the seale of the Ministery . Touching the first : as it is to vs that know you wel , no new thing to see you confident in all enterprises ; so doth it much behoove you to consider , how long and by what meanes you have been possessed of this your confident perswasion . I could name the person of good credite and note , to whom vpon occasion you confessed ( and that since you spake the same things , which here you write as confidently as now you write them ) that you had much a doe to keep a good conscience in dealing against this cause , as you did . But a speach of your own vttered to my self ( ever to be remēbred with fear and trembling ) can not I forget , when after the conference passing betwixt Mr H. and me , you vttered these wordes , Wel , I wil returne home , & preach as I have done , and I must say as Naaman did , the Lord be merciful unto me in this thing : and therevpon you further promised with out any provocation by me or any other , that you would never deale against this cause , nor with-hold any frōit : though the very next Lords day , or next but one , you taught publikli● against it , and so broke your v●w , the Lord graunt , not you conscience . And for the seale of your Ministerie , deceive not yourself and others ; if you had not a more authentick seal in your black box to shew for your Ministery at your Bishops visitation , then the converting of men to God , ( which is the seal you meane , ) this seale would stand you in as little stead , as it doth many others which can shew as ●●●re this way as you , and yet are put from their Ministerie notwithstanding . And wil you charge your Bishops & Church representative to deale so trecherously with the Lord , as to put downe his Ministers and Officers which have his broad seal to shew for their Office and Ministerie ? What greater contumely do these vipers , these schismaticall Brownists lay vpon your Church then you doe herein . The Church of England acknowledgeth no such seale as this is . The Bishops ordination and license , conformitie vnto their ceremonies , subscription to their articles , devout singing and saying their service-book is that which will beare a man out though he be far enough eyther from converting , or from preaching conversion vnto any . And here I desire the reader to observe this one thing with me . When the ministers are called in quaestion by the Bishops , they alledge vnto them their former subscription conformity in some measure , at least their peaceable cariage in their places , but when they would iustify their ministerie against vs , then their vsuall plea is , they haue converted men to God , herein acknowledging ( to let passe their vnsound dealing ) that we respect the work of Gods grace in any , at which they know the Bishops and their substitutes , if they should plead the same with them , would make a mock for the most part . I do most freely acknowledge the singular blessing of God vpon many truthes taught by many in the Land , and do and alwayes shal so far honour those persons as the Lord hath honoured them herein . But that the simple conversion of sinners , ( yea though the most perfect that ever was wrought ) should argue a true office of Ministerie ; the scriptures no where teach ; neyther shall I ever beleeve without them . This scripture 1 Cor. 9. 1. 2. is most frequently alledged for this purpose . But as vnsoundly as commonly . For if simple conversion should argue an Apostleship , then should a common effect argue a proper cause , an ordinarie work , an extraordinarie office : for the conversion of men is a work common to extraordinarie and to ordinarie officers , yea to true and false officers , yea to such as are in no office at all , as hereafter shall appeare . And what could be more weakly alledged by Paul to prove himself no ordinarie but an extraordinary officer , an Apostle , ( which was the thing he intended ) then that which is common to ordinary officers with him ? Might not the Corinthians easily have replyed ! Nay Paul it followes not that you are an Apostle immediately called and sent by Christ , because you haue begotten vs to the Lord , & have been the instrument of our cōversiō , for ordinary Ministers Pastors & Teachers called by men , do beget to the Lord as wel as you . The bare conversion of the Corinthians then is not the seal Paul speakes of , but together with it their establishment into a true visible Church , and that with such power and authority Apostolicall , as wherewith Paul was furnished by the Lord. Of which more hereafter . But the father of these childrē ( you say ) you are which thus vnnaturally fly from you , and whereof we so injuriously have deprived you , in which respect also you make this your hue & cry after vs and them , for through the gospel you have begotten them . And have you begotten them vnto the faith , as Paul did the Corinthians ? and are you their father , as Paul was the father of the Corinthians ? then it must needs follow that before you preached the gospel vnto them , and thereby begot them to the Lord , they were in the same estate wherein the Corinthians were before Paul preached vnto them , that is unbeleevers , and without faith , and so were to be reputed . And how then true matter of the Church , for which you so much contend ? Besides , these your begotten children were baptised long before you saw their faces , some twenty , some thirtie , some fourtie yeares . Now this their baptisme was true baptisme , and so the true seale of their forgivenes of sinnes , and new birth as you affirm & prove , page 119. & this their seal of the new birth hath stood good vpō them all this while visibly and externally , and yet after all this you preach vnto them & beget thē a new visibly & externally ( for onely God knoweth that which is true within . ) You have begot them through the Gospel . Behold a minstrous generation , a man begetting children twentie , or thirtie , or fourtie yeares after they be borne . If Nichodemus had heard of this , he might wel have sayd , how can th●se things be . Lastly , if you be by your office the fa●her of these children , as Paul was of the Corinthians by his , where is then that your rod of correction which Paul shakes at his children † ? doth any law eyther divine or humane deny a father liberty to correct his own childrē ? Or are you one of these simple fathers of whō your self speak † that can beget children but not bring them vp ? This ●od is seems apperteynes to both their and your reverend fathers the Bishops , who onely know how to vse it . To conclude the preface . In acknowledging ( as you doe in the end of it ) that some things in the book may seeme to the Christian reader to be written in the gall of bitternes , and yet suffering them so to passe , with an excuse of your intent , as herein you manifest no good conscience , chusing rather to excuse so great an evill then to reforme it : so neyther take you any likely course for the good of them with whome you deale , whose recovery ( if they be faln ) you should rather have attempted in the bowels of mercy the● in the gall of bitternes . A●d so I c●me to the partes of your book as they ly in order . Of the Authours Advertisements , called by him Christian , & counsels of peace . THe subiect whereof Mr Bern. treats in this place ( being peace ) is very plausible , the name amiable , the thing both pleasant and profitable . And as † God is the God of peace , so are not they Gods children , nor borne of him , which desire it not ; yea even in the middest of their contentions . But as all vices vse to cloth themselves with the habites of vertues , that vnder those liveries they may get countenance and finde the more free passage in the world , so especially in the Church all tyranny and confusion do present themselves vnder this colour , taking vp the politick pretence of peace , as a weapon of mere advantage wherewith the stronger , and greater party vseth to beat the weaker . The Papists presse the protestants with the peace of the Church and for the rent which they have made in it , condemn them beyond the heathenish souldiours , which forbare to devide Christs garment ; as deeply do the Bishops charge the Ministers refusing conformity and subscription , and both of them vs. But the godly wise must not be affrighted eyther from seeking or embracing the truth with such buggs as these are , but seeing † the wisdome which is from above , is first pure , then peaceable , he must make it a great part of his Christian wisdome to discerne betwixt godly and gratious peace , and that which is eyther pretended for advantage , or mistaken by error , & so to labor to hold peace in purity . Let it then be manifested vnto vs that the Communion which the Church of Englād hath with all the wicked in the Land , without separation , is a pure communion , that theyr service book devised and prescribed in so many words and letters to be read over and over with all the appurtenances , is a pure worship , that their goverment by Nationall Provinciall and diocesan Bishops according to their Canōs , is a pure govermēt , & then let vs be blamed if we hold not peace with them in word & deed ; otherwise though they spake vnto vs never so oft both by messengers and mouth of peace , and agayn of peace , * as Iehoram did to Iehu , yet must we answer them in effect , as Iehu did Iehoram , what peace whilest the whoredoms of the mother of fornicatiōs the Iezebel of Rome do remayn in so great number amongst them ? And I doubt not but Mr Bern. and 1000 more Ministers in the land , ( were they secure of the Magistrates sword , and might they go on with his good licence ) would wholly shake of their canonicall obedience to their Ordinaries , and neglect their citations and censures and refuse to sue in their Courts , for all the peace of the Church which they commend to vs for so sacred a thing . Could they but obteyn license frō the Magistrate to vse the libertie which they are perswaded Christ hath given them , they would soon shake off the Prelates yoke , and draw no longer vnder the same in spirituall cōmunion with all the profane in the land , but would break those bonds of iniquitie , as easily as Sampson did the cordes wherwith Dalilah tyed him , and give good reasons also from the word of God for their so doing . And yet the approbation of men and angels , makes the wayes of God & workes of religion never a whit the more lawfull , but onely the more free from bodily daunger . Wherevpon we ( the weakest of all others ) have been perswaded to embrace this truth of our Lord Iesus Christ , though in great and manifold afflictions , & to hold out his testimony as we do , though without approbation of our Sovereigne , knowing that as his approbation in such points of Gods worship , as his word warranteth not , cannot make them lawful ; so neyther can his disallowance make unlawful such duties of religion , as the word of God approveth , nor can he give dispensation to any person to forbeare the fame , Dan ▪ 3. 18. Act. 5. 29. These things I thought good to commend to the reader that he may be the more cautelous of this and the like colourable pretences , wishing him also wel to remember , that peace in disobedience is that old theam of the false Prophets , whereby they flattered the mighty , and deceaved the simple , Ier. 6. 14. & 8. 11. Let us now come to consideration of the counsels themselves so fr●ndly given , and so sagely set downe . And therein to approve what is good and wholsome , to interpret in the best sense what is doubtful , and to passe by unrequited such contumelies as wherewith Mr B. reprocheth vs , as in all places , so here in his rhyming Rhetorick , wherein he labours to rowl ●s even as may be , betwixt the Atheisticall Securitant , and Anabaptisticall Puritant , the carelesse Conformitant , and th● preposterous Reformitant , and so forth , as the rhyme runneth , I wil come to those ten Rules or Canons praescribed by him , pag. 3. 4. 5. for the praeservation of peace in the Church or state ecclesiasticall , for that alone we oppose , humbling our selves vnder the hand of the Magistrate as much , and more truely then himself . 1. Uphold the manifest good therein . A man vpholds that which is good most naturally , by his personal practise of it , and actual communion in it : & thus we ought to mainteyn every good thing in our places , if sinn ly not in the way betwixt vs and it . But since by the confusion which is vpon the face of the earth , good & evil are ought times so intermingled , as that men cannot touch that which is good , but some evil wil cleave unto their fingers , when this so falls out , then have we a dispensation from the Lord to forbeare even that good which without syn can not be practised . Rom. 3. 8. And yet then also wee must acknowledge that good thing to be as it is , in what person or estate soever , and so vphold it . And lastly so far as possibly we can we must sever and select the good from the evil , & so even in our practise also vphold & mainteyn that good being so severed , whereof whilest it was commingled with the evil , we could have no lawful vse . And all these wayes we vphold whatsoever manifest good we know in the Church of England : whether doctrine , ordinance , or personall grace , to our vtmost . We do acknowledge in it many excellent truthes of doctrine , which we also teach without commixture of error , many Christian ordinances which we also practise being purged from the pollution of Antichrist , and for the godly persons in it ( could we possibly separate them from the prophane ) we would gladly embrace them with both armes . But being taught by the Apostle speaking but of one wicked person , and of one Iewish ordinance † that a little leven leveneth the whol lump , we cannot be ignorant how sour the English Assemblies must needs be : neither may we justly be blamed though we dare not dip in their meal , least we be soured by their leven . The second and third Rules follow , which for order-sake I will invert , setting the latter in the former place . 2. Beare with lighter faultes for a time , til fit occasion be offred to have them amended . 1. No sinn is light in it selfe , but being continued in , and countenanced destroyeth the sinner . Matth. 5. 19. 2. It is the property of a prophane and hardened heart evermore to extenuate and lessen sinns . 3. Though the bearing and forbearing not onely of smal but even of great sinns also must be for at tyme , yet it must be but for a tyme , and that is whilest reformation be orderly sought , and procured , Lev. 19. 17. But what tyme hath wrought in the Church of England all men see , growing dayly by the iust iudgment of God , from evill to worse , and being never afore tyme so impatient eyther of reformation , or other good , as at this day . 4. A man must so bear an evill , as he be no way accessary vnto it , by forbearing any means appoynted by Christ for the amending it . 3. The manifest evil , labour in thy place by the best ●●anes to have them amended peaceably . This is not sufficient , nor enough , except our places be such and we in such Churches , as wherein we may vse the ordinary meanes Christ hath left for the amendemēt of things : otherwise our places and standing themselves are vnwarrantable , and must be forsaken . And this I desire may be well considered by all such whether Ministers or people , as know and acknowledge that Christ requireth of them further duties for the amendement of evils , then their very places will give them libertie to performe . The fourth & fifth and sixth Canon may be receaved with out daunger , the seventh not so . 7. Let the corruption of the person , and his lawfull place be distinguished : and where person and places are not so lawfull , and in the proposed end not agaynst thee , wisely labour to make them for thee : and make that good of the● thou canst , and wholly condemn not that Ministery which a godly man may make for good . We may not communicate at all in that Ministery which is excercised by an vnlawfull person or in an vnlawfull place , though God may bring good out of it , least we do evil that good may come thereof , which is damnable . Rom. 3. 8. And if that be true vvhich the most forvvard professe & do hold , that the approbation and acceptation of the people gives being to the Ministery , it concerns the people carefully to see vnto it , that they accept not of , nor cōmunicate with any vnlawfull person in an vnlawfull place , least thereby they set vp , or give being vnto his Ministery , and so be deep in his transgression . The eight and ninth rule , I passe over as being without exception . Onely I see not vpon what occasion the authour should thus disorderly shuffle into this controversy ( which is merely ecclesiasticall ) such considerations as in the former of these two rules and in many other places he doth concerning the frame and alteration of civill states , except he would eyther insinuate agaynst vs that we went about to alter the civill state of the kingdom ; or at least , that the alteration of the state ecclesiastical , must needs drawe with it , the alteratiō of the civil state ; with which ●●te the Prelates have a long tyme bleared the eyes of the Magistrates . But how deceiptfully , hath been sufficiently manifested , and offer made further to manifest the same by solemn disputation . And the truth is , that all states and pollicies which are of God , whether Monarchycall , Aristocraticall or Democraticall , or how mixt soever , are capable of Christs goverment . Neyther doth the nature of the state , but the corruption of the persons hinder the same in one or other . 10. Refuse not to obey authority in any thing wherein there is not t● thee manifestly known a sinn to be cōmitted agaynst God : let fantasyes passe : be more loath to offend a lawfull Magistrate , then many private persons . Where thou canst not yeeld , there humbly crave pardon ; where thou canst not be tolerated , be content with correction for safety of conscience . Authority indeed is to be obeyed in all things ; if they be good , actively , and by doing them , if evill and vnlawfull , passively and by suffering with meeknes for righteousnes sake : if pardon cannot be obteyned , as is well advised . But where counsell is given to ob●y in any thing whrein a manifest known sinne is not cōmitted agaynst God , this morsell must not be swallowed downe till it be well chewed . For a man may commit a sinne agaynst God , in doing a thing wherein there is no sinne . The sinne may be in the person doing , & not in the thing done : as when a man doth a good thing against his conscience or doubtingly , and without fayth . 1 Iohn . 3. 20. Rom. 14. 23. And where Mr. Bern. further adviseth rather to offend many private persons then one lawful Magistrate , I doubt not he gives no worse counsayle then he himself followes , who ( except I be much deceaved in him ) had rather offend half the private persons in the diocesse , then one Arch-bishop though he be an vnlawfull Magistrate . But of the case of offence hereafter . In the meane whyle , let vs remember our care be not to offend the Lord , and if with the offence of a private person ( though never so base ) be joyned the offence of the Lord , better offend all the both lawfull and vnlawfull Magistrates in the world , then such a little one . Mat. 18. 6. Lastly where Mr. Ber. concludes this decade of counsayl with that which is written Rom. 14. 17. 18. he misinterprets the Apostles words if he put them down ( as it seems he doth ) for a reason of that which goes before . For the Apostles in that place hath no reference at all to the authority of the Magistrate , whose kingdome indeed doth stand in meate and drinke and the like bodily things , wherin he may command civilly , & is to be obeyed in the Lord : but the Apostles purpose is to admonish the strong in fayth to take heed of abusing theyr Christiā liberty in the vnseasōable vse of meats & drinks & the like ( to the offence of the weak brethren ) as though the kingdom of God stood in the perēptory vse of those things , & that they were therein to shew the libertie of the gospel . Furthermore howsoever the kingdome of God be not meat & drink , yet is the kingdom of God much advanced or hindred both in a mans self and in others , in the seasonable or vnseasonable vse of them . A man in vsing them ( or rather abusing them ) with offence to a weak brother , may destroy both him , and himself also in breaking the law of charity . Rom. 14. 15. 20. It remaynes now we come to the second rank of counsayls , as they are devided by the authour , for what cause I know not , neyther wil I curiously enquire . but wil take them as I find them . 1. Omit no evident and certayn commandement imposed of God. If there be nothing but probabilitie of sinning in obeying the precepts of men , s●t not opinion before iudgement . Wofull counsel , God knoweth , and in deed such as directs a course to harden the heart of him that followes it in all impiety . For he that wil at the first do that by mans precept , which is like or which he thinks to be sinne ; wil in time do that vpon the like regard which he knowes to be sinne : and so fall into all presumption against God. Men are rather to be admonished ( especially in the case of religion about which wee deale ) that if the Lord shall touch their tender harts with fear and iealousy of the things they do , they rather suspend in doubtful things , ( except they can in some measure overcome their doubting by faith , ) till in the use of all good meanes , the God of wisdome and father of lights give to discern more plainly of things that differ , least being head-strong & hard-mouthed against the check of conscience , which the Lord like a bit puts into their mouthes , they provoke the Highest to withdraw his hand , & to lay the reyn on their necks , & so they even run head long vpō those evils without fear , upō which at the first they have adventured with feareful & troubled cōsciences , which is oft times the iust recompence of such errours frō the Lord. Rom. 1. 27. 28. 2. Let ancient probabilitie of truth be praeferred before new conjectures of errour against it . As this rule shewes by what tenure Mr B. holds his religion , namely , by probabilities & likelihoods of truth ; so if he mean that this way ( wherein we by Gods mercy walk ) is any new way , or our rules conjectures , I do hope ( by the good hand of God herein assisting me ) to make it manifest , that this way is † that old and good way , after which all men ought to ask and to walk therein , that so they may find rest vnto their souls . And that we are not guided in it by conjectures neyther goe by guesses , but by the infallible rule of Christs Testament . 3. Mark and hold a difference betweene these things ; the equity of law and exequution : between established truths generally , and personall errors of some : between soundnes of doctrine , and erronious application : between substance , & circūstance : the maner , & the matter : between the very being of a thing , and the wel being thereof : between worship , and conveniency : between a commaundement , and a commaundement to thee : between lawfulnes , and expediency : and between that which is given absolutely , or in some respect . The sixt and 7. rule in the former rank ( being the same in substance ) might well have been bound vp in the same bundle with this , had not the authour labored to supply that in the number of his counsayls , which is wanting in their weight . But to the point . There is a difference indeed to be held betwixt the lawes of the Church of England , with the ordinances and doctrines by law established , and the personall exequutions , excercises , & applicatiōs of thē ; & the difference is betwixt evil , & worse : & the worse of the twayne by far I deem the lawes & ordinances with sundry of the doctrines . For though the whole cariage of the courts miscalled-spirituall , be most corrupt , & abhominable , and though the pulpits be made by very many ( especially in the greatest places ( the stages of vanity , falsehood , and slaunder , so that as the Prophet sayd , * what is the wickednes of Iacob ? Is not Samaria ? And what ar the high places of Iuda ? Is not Ierusalē ? so may we say what is the sink of all brybery , and extortion ? Is not the Consistory ? What is the theater of carnall vanity ? Is not the pulpit ? Yet in truth the the lawes are worse then those which exequute them , and the ordinances by them established then those which minister them . Let but the last Canons ( which are as well the lawes and doctrine of the Church of England , as the Canons of the counsel of Trent are the lawes and doctrine of the Church of Rome ) be severely and sincerely exequuted as becomes the lawes of the kingdom of Christ , the Church all in the land having any feare of God , would fynd and complayne that their bondage were increased , as was the bondage of the Israelites vnder the Egyptians . Exo. 5. But what though there were neyther Statute nor Canon law enacted , for the confusion in the assemblyes collected and consisting of all the parish inhabitants , be they Atheists , adulterers , blasphemers and how evill not ? what though no law ecclesiasticall or civil did cōfirm the transcendent power of the Bishops & Archbishops for the placing and displacing of Ministers , for the thrusting out and receiving in , both of Ministers and people , and so f●r innumerable other corruptions ? Yet these things being vniversally practised in the land , the Church were nothing at all the more pure , onely it had the more liberty of reformation , which now by the lawes and cannons , as by iron barres , is shut out . What Statute or Canon was there that the Corinthians should suffer amongst them the incestuous person vnreformed ? And yet for so doing this † litle leven levens the whole lump . What Parliament or Convocation-house amongst the Galathians had decreed the mingling of circumcision with the gospell ? And yet for so doing they are charged by the Apostle to be * removed or turned away to another gospell . By what law w●s the mistery of iniquity confirmed ? Or Antichrists cōming into the world agreed vpō in the Apostles tyme ? And yet “ the mistery of iniquity then wrought ; and many Antichrists were then † come into the world . And yet these mischeifs being found in the Churches in the Apostles tymes , were as wel imputed vnto thē , as if a thousand Parliaments & Convocations had ratified them . To proceed . It is also true which is further counsayled , that a difference must be held betwixt substance & circumstance ; betwixt the manner and the matter ; betwixt the being and well being of a thing ; and so of the rest : but withall it must be observed that the Lord hath in his word , as wel appoynted the manner how he wil have things done , as the things themselves , and that even circumstances prescribed and determined by the Lord , are of that force , not only to deface the welbeing , but to overturn the true being of Gods worship . The Lord commaunded the Israelites by Moses to bring they● sacrifices and oblations to the place which for that purpose he would chuse and there to offer them , Deut. 12. 5. 6. And did not all offerings brought to any other place ( without speciall dispensation ) stink in his nostrels ? And yet this was but a circumstance of place . And wherein stands the breach of the fourth commaundemēt but in a circumstance of tyme ? Lastly , what was the transgression of Vzziah the King , for which God stroke him with leprosy , but a personall aberratiō , a sinne in the circumstance of person , for that he being no Preist , would adventure to offer incense at the Altar . 2. Chr. 26. 16. 17. 18. 19. Of the same nature was the sinne of Corah Dathan & Abiram , merely circumstantiall : Dathan and Abiram being of a wrong tribe , and Corah of a wrong family and yet for that theyr rebellion , the earth by Gods judgment opened her mouth , and swallowed vp both them and theyrs . Numb . 16. 1. 2. 32. And for the well being and right ordering of good things , the Lord as well requireth it , as the things themselves . He hath not left in the hands of the Church a rude matter to frame after her owne fashion , but with the matter he hath also appoynted the manner and form wherein all things must be done . When Moses vnder the law was to make the Tabernacle , the Lord did not set him out the matter and stuffe whereon to make it , and so left the manner and form● to his pleasure and discretion , but appoynted the one as well as the other ; and if he had framed it , or any thing about it after any other fashion then according to the pattern shewed him in the mount , he had done abhominably in the sight of the Lord. Exo. 25. 3-40 . &c. and 26. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. &c. Hebr. 8. 5. When the Ark of God was to be removed vpon occasion , the Preists were to cover it , that no hand might touch it , and so to carry it vpon their shoulders to the place of rest . Numb . 4. 11. 15. Deut. 3. 19. Now this order of the Lord was violated , in the bringing of it out of the house of Abinadab vncovered and vpon a cart , after the fashion of the Egyptians , 1 Sam. 8. 7. 8. And the breach of this order the Lord punished very severely , making a breach vpon Vzzah the Preist for touching the Ark , which was his personall sinne , and for carrying it vpon the cart , which sinne was common to the rest of the Preists with him ; he was striken dead by the hand of God in the same place . 2 Sam. 6. Now both this and the former examples are left to warne vs to take he●d , that we presume not against the Lord in the least ceremony or circumstāce , neyther make any transgression small in our eyes , or the eyes of others , as the manner of too many is . But let vs rather learne to feare before the Highest whose eyes are pure , & can indure none iniquity ; and let vs labour to keepe our hearts tender agaynst all sinne , even agaynst that which seemeth the least ; knowing that if the Lord should let Satan loose vpon vs , to presse our consciences , & should withdraw his comforts from vs in our temptations , the least sinne would prove a burden vntollerable . 4 Use the present good which thou mayest enioy to the vtmost , and an experienced good before thou doest trouble thyselfe to seek for a supposed better good , vntryed , which thou enioyest not . We must so enioy experienced good things , as we stock not our selves in respect of other things , as yet vntryed . We may not stint or circumscribe eyther our knowledg , or fayth , or obedience , within streyter bounds then the whole revealed will of God , in the knowledge , & obedience wherof we must dayly encrease & edify our selves ; much lesse must we suffer our selves to be stripped of any liberty which Christ our Lord hath purchased for vs , and given vs to vse for our good ; Gal 5. 1. And here ( as I take it ) comes in the ●ase of many hundreds in the Church of England , who what good they may enioy ( that is safely enjoy or without any great bodily daunger , ) that they vse very fully . Where the wayes of Christ ly open for them , by the authority of men , & where they may walk safely with good leave , there they walk very vprightly , and that a round pace ; but when the commaundements of Christ are as it were hedged vp with thrones , by mens prohibitions , there they fowly † step a syde , and pitch theyr tents by the flocks of his fellowes . There are many in the land very zealous & severe in all the d●ties of the second table , and in the private and personal duties of the first table , and in such publick duties also as the times wil bear , and in those respects may say as Iehu did to Iehonadab , * see the ze●● which I have for the house of the Lord : but consider the same persons i● their Communion , Leyturgy , Ministery and government , & there seemeth a most monstrous composition . These things in the same men do agree as ill as the Ark of God & Dagon in the same house . We ought in no case to share our service betwixt Christ and Antichrist , nor to stock ourselves in any the least parts of the revealed will of God , but must grow and increase in the whole body of obedience , and all the parts thereof ; otherwise ( as in the naturall body if one part grow and not an other ) the effect wil be monstrous . Ezek . 18. 11. 12. Iam. 2. 10. Deut. 8. 1. The 5. 6. & 7. precept I pretermit : the 8. followeth . 8. Never praesume to reforme others , before thou hast w●●● ordered thy self . &c. True zeal , it is certayn , ever beginnes at home , and gives mor● libertie unto other men then it dares assume unto it self . And there is nothing more true or necessary to be considered , then that every man ought to order himself and his own stepps first . That is good & the best , but not all . For if by Gods commandement we ought to † bring back our enemies ox or asse that strayeth , how much more to bring into order our brothers soul & body wandring in by pathes ? And here Mr Bernard brings to mind a practise vsuall with many of the preachers in their sermons . They wil advance prayer , viz , their service book ; that they may extenuate preaching ; cōmend peace , that they may smother truth ; plead much for censures due to be given him , that they may deteyne from God his due ; and every where send men back into themselves , that they may keep thē from looking vpon others , and so make them carelesse of such duties towards their brethren , as Gods word bindes them unto . Levi● . 19. 17. 1 Thes. 5. 14. As though the cōmandements of God were opposite one to another , and could not stand together , wheras they are all most holy and good , and all helpful one to another , and all to be practised in their places ; whether they concerne our selves or our brethren . They of the one sort ought to be done , and they of the other not to be left vndone . The 9. 10. and 11. Rule I acknowledge without exception . 12. Whomsoever thou doest see to do a misse , iudge it not to be of wilfulnes , but eyther of ignorance , and so offer to informe them ; or of infirmity , and so pitty them , and pray for them . Be charitable , &c. This Rule as it is not vniversally true , for we may oft tymes discern in mens both words and actions , wilfull and wayward obstinacy , and so may iudge of them , 1 Tim. 6. 5. Tit. 3. 10. 11 : so is it ill practised by him that gives it . For amongst other sinns wherewith he loadeth he Separists in his book , † wilfull obstinacy in their schism● , is one . Here full charitably he advertiseth to iudge no man , wilfull in his ●inn , & yet there he himself so iudgeth vs : eyther excluding vs from the common libertyes of mankynde , as wormes and no men ; or himself following the steps of his forefathers , in * laying heavy burdens vpon other mens shoulders , which himself will not touch with the least finger . Agaynst the 13. direction , I have not to oppose , and therefore passe to the 14. and last , touching things indifferent ; by which this authour makes way into many an impertinent , & indigested consideration . The rule followeth . 14. In things indifferent make no question for conscience sake , so be that neyther holynes , meri●e nor necessity be put therein : nor they vsed for any part of Gods worship , but for decency , order and aedification . For answer of this , sundry things are to be considered . And first , that which the Apostle speaks , 1 Cor. 10. 25. 27. of the cōmon conversation of Christians in the world , and of their liberty that way , Mr. Bern. misapplieth to the case of religion , and matters of Gods worship , as though men might vse as great liberty in the matters of religion or about the same , as in their worldly affayres . Secondly , where the Apostle , ver . 25. 27. directs the faythful to make no conscience of eating , he further addeth , ver . 28. 29. that for the offence of a weak brother scandalizing at the eating of Idolothites , they ought to make conscience and to forbeare . This latter part which is the very drift of the scripture , Mr. Bern. concealeth , and so maymeth the sence , and frustrateth the reader ; and whether to thi●●nd he leaves not the words vnquoted , his owne heart knowes best . 3. Howsoever you labour to cover your Popish ceremonies ( for th●se you meane though you name them not , ) vnder the title of things indifferent , of to●es tris●es and the like , ( champing them smal , that they may the easilyer be swallowed , ) denying that either holynes , or necessity is put in them , or that they are made partes of Gods worship , yet hath the contrary been sufficiently manyfested by your owne men , to whose large treatises to this purpose , I refer the reader . Notwithstanding since Mr. B. casts this consideration , as a stone in the way to other matters of importance , I may not altogether overstryde it , but will turne it over as I goe , that the reader as he passeth by , may see what wormes and other vermine , lyes vnder it . First then to l●t passe the holynes which thousands in the land put in the crosse , surplice , kneeling at the communion , without which they think no service or sacrament so acceptable to God , for which cause alone they ought not onely to be forborne , but to be abolished much rather then the brasen serpent , 2. King. 18. it is evident that the same special vses and ends are ascribed vnto them , and to the principall parts of Gods worship : and so agreeing in theyr ends they agree in their natures . One mayn end & vse of the word of God , is to teach & signify vnto vs the good will of God , and our duety mutually towards him and towards our brethren , & to stir vp our mynds to the remembrance and performance of t●● same , 2 Tim. 3. 16. And what lesse is attributed to the ceremonyes , when † they are neyther dark nor dumb , but ap● to stir vp the dul mynde of man to the remembrance of his duty to God. The proper ends and vses of baptisme are to initiate the partyes baptised into the Church of Christ , and to consecrate them to his service , & so to serve for badges of Christianity , by which it is distinguished from all other professiōs , Mat. 28. 19. 1 Cor. 12. 13. And for what meaner vse serves the signe of the crosse in baptism , by or with which , † the childe is r●ceaved into the congregation of Christs flock , and by it as by an honourable badge of Christian profesion dedicated to the service of Christ ? And so those ceremonyes supposed indifferent , agreing with the mayn parts of Gods worship in theyr ends , must agree also in their natures with them , since fines rerum sunte formis , & so consequently must have holynes in them , or els your worship Mr. B. is very vnholy . And what necessity is put in them , all men see when the purest preaching in the land without them is thought not onely vnnessary , but even intollerable . And if * necessity be layd vpon the Ministers to preach the Gospell , then that to which the preaching of the Gospell must give place , is more necessary , and so made . Moreover , to make a thing indifferent , and yet to serve for decency , order and edification , includes a contradiction : For it is not an indifferent thing to minister the ordinances of Christ decently orderly and to edification , but a matter of simple necessity , 1 Cor. 14. 26. 40. Yea I adde , if the Ceremonyes make the worship of God the more comely , orderly , and edificative , they ought continually & diligently to be vsed , yea though they were forbidden by the Highest power vpō earth : as on the contrary , if they advantage not the worship of God for those purposes , they are vayn and frivolous , & to be forborn in or about the worship of God , which abhorrs all such vanity . Lastly , as we live in a very indifferent age for religion , wherein the most are indifferent of what religion they are ; yea whither they be of any or none ; so no mervayl though men stād stis●y for indifferency of things . And when they have amongst them such devises , as they neither can approve for good , nor wil condemn as evil , they baptize them into the name of indifferent things . But the truth is , there is nothing simply indifferent in the vse : but be it never so base or meane a ceremony , circumstance or appurtenance to any solemn action , it is eyther good or evill according to the furtherance or hinderance which it affoardeth to the mayn ▪ If it give furtherance to a naturall action , it is naturally good ; if to a civil action , civily good ; if to a religious action , religiously good ; and so to be reputed : otherwise it is vayne at the least : and vanity as it is every where evil , so is it in the matters of religion the taking of Gods name in vayn . The next thing which Mr. Bern. vndertakes , is to set downe how scrupulosity of conscience ariseth in men : for which disease ( if it arise ) surely he sheweth himself a physitiō of no value for the healing of it : but eyther smothereth the same vnder the authority of the Magistrate , or dispenseth with it vpon good meanings , or forceth it on without assurance , or entangleth it with new doubts . In the first enquiry which he wils men to make into themselves , touching scrupulosity of cōscience amōgst other things he speaks thus . If the ground , vz. of doubting be not a iudgement enlightened , & convinced , it is not trouble of conscunce , but a dislike working discontentment vpon some other ground . And this in the margent he wils the reader to note well , as in deed he may note it and brand it , too for il & vnadvised counsayl . For howsoever no mans conscience ought to scandalize or be troubled at the vse of lawful things ( for the larger conscience the better in that which is lawfull ) and that such doubts in the heart do arise from weaknes of fayth ; and weaknes of faith from want of knowledge : yet since we all † know but in part , & that our fayth is according to our knowledge , and our conscience according to our fayth , when a doubt or scruple ariseth in our hearts touching the lawfullnes of things , yea though it be of very ignorance , we must not passe it over lightly without trouble , least it prove as a thorn in the heele and rankle inwardly . Neyther are such scruples alwayes so easily removed , as Mr. Bern. maks account . Weak and tender consciences do oft tymes stick at a very strawe , and there must they stand , til the Lord give strength to step over . The thing intended and promised by Mr. Bern. in the next place , is satisfaction to the perplexed conscience , and direction in that case : which he is so far from performing by sound and resolved counsayl ( as were meet ) as in stead therof , he propounds sundry doubtes and quaeries of his ovvn , vvhich he leaves vnsatisfyed , to the further entangling of his perplexed patient : abusing also his reader too much in performing questions , where he promiseth answers . Wel , howsoevr it be an easier thing to ty knotts then to loose them , and that a simple man may cast a stone into a ditch , vvhich a wise man cannot get out agayne : yet are not those questions which Mr. Bern. propounds and so leaves vnanswered , so dark & doubtfull , that a man needs take so long a jorney as the Queen of Sheba did , for resolution . The first quaere of weight being the 4. in order , I vvil set down vvord for vvord , though it be large , because it is of speciall consideration . The question then is . Why a man should be more scrupulous to seek to have warrant playnly for every thing he doth in ecclesiasticall causes , even about things indifferent , more then about matters pollitick in civil affaires . Men in these things know not the ground nor end of many things , which they do yeeld vnto vpon a generall command to obey authority , and knowing them not to be directly agaynst Gods will : and yet every particular obedience in civill matters must be 1. of conscience , 2. as serving the Lord ( so must every servant his maister ) which cannot be without knowledg & perswasion that we do wel even in that particular which we obey in . Which m●n vsually for conscience sake enquir● not into , but do rest themselves with a generall commaundement of obeying lawful authority , so it be not agaynst a playne commaundement of God. What therefore doth let but that a man may so satisfie himselfe in matters Ecclesiasticall ? Though as playne a vvarrant must be had from Gods vvord , for the things vve do in matters politick , as in causes cclesiastical ; and that obedience in the one as vvell as in the other must be of conscience : yet notvvithstanding the same vvord of God vvarranteth vnto vs clean and an other and different course of obedience in things civil , and in things ecclesiasticall . And the grosse ignorance or vngodly concealment of this difference , is the cause of great confusion . It must therefore be considered that this difference stands in tvvo poynts , 1. the nature of the things and their proper ends . 2. the povver immediate by which they are imposed ; from which two ariseth necessarily a third difference to be made in the conscience of obedience vnto them . First then it cannot be denyed , but matters civill and politick do come vnder the generall administration and goverment of the world , and do respect the outward man for this present life . On the other side , matters ecclesiasticall come vnder the special administration of the Church , and serve for the edification and building vp of the inward man to life eternall . Secondly , Magistrates and men in authority , do enact and impose their civill decrees and ordinances upon theyr subiects , by a Kingly and Lordly power , as being Kings and Lords civilly over the outward man , and his outward estate ; Math. 20. 25. and may by their Kingly and Lordly power commaund in their owne names , and that vpon occasion to the civill hurt and hinderance of many of theyr people , & are therein to be obeyed notwithstanding , Rom. 13. 1. 2. 3. &c. Mat. 22. 21. But in causes ecclesiasticall not so . There is no King of the Church but Christ , who is † the King of Saincts and Saviour of Syon , no Lord but Iesus , who is the onely * Lord and Lawgiver of his Church . And all his lawes & statutes tend to the furtherance and advancemēt of every one of his subiects in their spiritual estate , & neyther King nor Kezar may or ought to impose any law to the least praeju dice of the same , neyther ar they therin ( if they should ) to be obeyed . Our civil liberty we may loose without syn , & without syn vndergo bodily domages , Math. 22. 21. but we are bidden “ stand for the liberty wherwith Christ hath freed vs , & that is the whol liberty of the Church ; & to † let no man iudge vs ( that is , ecclesiastically , ) no not in mea●s & drinks , though civilly men may commaund & iudge vs in them . And vpon these grounds truely layd by the word of God , an answer may be framed on this manner . In civill affayres we may and ought to obey for the authority of the commaunder , yea though we know not any good , but on the contrary much harm to our bodily estate , comming vnto vs by the same : but in matters ecclesiasticall which are subordinate to the souls good , we must obey onely for the ends of the things cōmaunded , and as they tend to the edification of our selves and others , 1 Cor. 14. 26. To conclude this poynt , since the Apostles expresly commaunds , that all things in the Church be done to the edificatiō of the same , I would demaund of Mr. B. with what fayth or good conscience he or any other mā , can do or enterprise any one thing in the Church , which he or they are not perswaded by the word of God ( which is the rule of fayth ) tends to edification . These things being thus , there is no cause why Mr. B. should account it curiosity to serch particularly into every thing for satisfaction : ( the differences formerly layd down being observed ) neyther doth this holy care of Gods servants ( as he further addeth ) work vpon mens wittes to bring distinctions , but on the contrary men of corrupt mynds and vnfaythfull least they should be reformed by the word of God , do get distinctions , like excuses after their owne hearts . Much lesse is it eyther truely or christianly affirmed which followeth , that the more men seek in doubts for resolution , the further they are from it . For howsoever it may be thus with M. B. & many others , which seek the truth as cowards do their enemyes , with a fear to fynd it , least it trouble theyr carnall peace ; yet have other men better yssue of theyr labours , and by † seeking have found that hydden treasure for the purchase whereof they are content to sell all they have , and to buy it . In the next place come in six rules of directions how to settle the cons●ience to prevent scrupulosity , and perplexity . 1. Keep all mayn truthes in the word which are most playnely set downe , and are by law of nature ingraven in every man. First , you are much mistaken Master Bern. if you imagine that all mayn truthes in the word are engraven in every man by the lawe of nature . For the gospell is the more principall part of the word , which notwithstanding is wholy supernaturall and above the created knowledge of man or Angel , Mat. 11. 27. Ephe. 3. 10. Secondly , if in commending mayn truthes and such as ar● playnely set downe , you do insinuate that there are any truthes so meane which we may eyther neglect to serch , or ( having found them ) to obey , therin you should deceive by promising liberty , & make your selfe wiser then God , and crosse his ordinance & appoyntment . 2 Tim. 3. 16. Deut. 4. 1. 2. And for things left more dark in the Scriptures , they must be vnto vs matter of humiliation in our naturall blyndenes , and of more earnest meditation and prayer with all good conscience . 2. Beleeve every collection truely & necessarely gathered by an immediate consequence from the text . This is good but not sufficient . For collections truely made ( though by mediate consequences one after another ) are to be receaved , though the fewer the better , and the lesse subiect to daunger . And we must not curtall the discourse of reason soberly vsed and sanctifyed by the word , so short as Mr. B. would haue vs. When the Lord Iesus was to deal with the Saduces about the resurrection he took his proof from that which is written , Exo. 3. 6. I am the God of Abraham , &c. which words do no way conclude the resurrection of the body ( which was the question ) by any immediate consequence , and yet the collection was good and necessary . The 3. and 4. direction I omit as questionles , and come to the 5. in order . 5. Enterteyn true antiquity , & follow the generall practise of the Church of God in all ages , where they have not erred from the evident truth of God. It cannot be denyed but that is best which is most auncient , and that truth and righteousnes were in the world before syn & error ; but neyther the one nor the other did continue long eyther amongst men or Angels . And he that but considers what monstrous errours and corruptions sprang vp in the Church of the new Testament , whylest the Apostles lived which planted them , wil not think it strange though almost all were over-grown with such bryars and thornes in a few ages following . And what not onely vnsoundnes in doctrine , but vncertaynty in story is to be found in the most auncient writers , no man though but even meanely exercised in them , can be ignorant . And yet if we would take vp these weapons , it were easy to make good our part against the Church of England in the mayne differences . But we have the word of God which is to vs a sure testimony : and if he be onely to be heard of whome God from heaven hath testified † , as the onely Prophet and Doctor of his Church , we are not then so much to regard what any man hath practised before vs , as what Christ hath commaunded which is before all . And we must in the first labour to have our harts seasoned with the word of God and according to that taste must all mens both perswasions and practises be savored by vs : taking heed of those preposterous courses commonly held ; some at the first corrupting their harts with the thorny subtilties of the school-men , & more witty then sound sayings of the fathers , and others prejudicing and forestalling themselves by the present and sensible state of things before theyr eyes , or by the generall and partiall practise of tymes past ; and so comming in the last place to the word of God , haling that in , to back and support theyr exalted forestalled imaginations . 6. If thou suffer , let it be for knowne truth , and against knowne wickednes , for which thou hast examples in the word , or of holy martyrs in story , suffering for the same or the like . But beware of far fetched consequences , &c. We are to forbeare evills not onely known , but suspected & * doubted of . And he that knowes what a heart meaneth truely softened and made tender with the blood of Christ , had rather suffer all extremityes then approve that as good , eyther by word , writing , or practise , which he but doubteth to be evill , and to displease God , except by fayth he can overcome that doubt in some measure . And for vs , though we had no example eyther in the word of God , or other story of any martyrs suffering in the same or the like particulars with vs , yet since the things we suffer for , are parts of the generall truth of the gospell , which others before vs have witnessed , we must expose and give our bodyes to the smyters , and our cheeks vnto the nippers , and must not hide our faces from reproches & spitting rather then we deny the least part of it : How much more then considering how many witnesses the Lord hath raysed vp , which having finished their testimony against the Apostacy and vsurpation of the man of sinne , some in one degree and some in an other , have been killed by the beast , some of old and others of late tymes , Rev. 11. 3. 7. Lastly , where mention is made of things onely seeming vnto men just & holy : it must be considered , that it is all one to the conscience of the doer , whither the thing done be so in truth , or but in appearance . And he that eyther doth that which seemeth vnto him vnjust and vnholy , or passeth by that which seemeth just and holy , sinneth agaynst his owne hart , † and if his owne hart condemn him , God which is greater then his heart will much more condemn him . If yet thou doest iudge a thing commaunded a sinne , and not to be obeyed ; for thy help herein , enquire whether that which is wrongfully or sinfully commaunded , may not yet neverthelesse be without sinne obeyed as Ioab obeyed David in numbring the people . This is as much as if in playne termes you should counsel a man , to cōsider whether he may not sinne without syn : for what els is it to obey that commaundement , which a man judgeth not to be obeyed ? A cold comforter are you to a perplexed conscience & an ill counseler , thus to advise men to be bould agaynst the Lord , and to try whether , they can blynd their consciences , and harden their harts , that they may sinne without feeling , or feare . The example of Ioab in obeying David , is impertinent . The case was civil , and in civill affaires many thinges may lawfully be vndergone , which are vnlawfully imposed . For example : If the King merely for his pleasure should enioyne Mr B. vpon some great penalty to come into the field souldierlike , to draw a sword , shoot , march or the like , the Magistrate might do evill in thus cōmaunding , and yet not Mr B. in obeying : but thus to do in the Church or pulpit in the tyme of Gods worship , were as finfull obedience as were the commaundement sinfull . All actions ecclesiasticall , in or about Gods worship , are subordinate to the edification of the Church and to good order ; if they tend thereto they are lawfull in the commaunder , if not they are vnlawfull in him that obeyeth . Besides , Davids cōmandement for numbring the people , was no way vnlawfull in it selfe , but vpon occasion both lawfull & necessary . Numb . 1. 2. & 26. 4. It was onely the curiosity or pride , or infidelity of Davids heart made the sinne , which might hurt himself , but not Ioab . But had Ioab judged the thing commaunded sinne , and not to have been obeyed , he had sinned in obeying , as well as David in commaunding . That which Mr B. calls next into quaestion , is , whether the recusant Ministers may not for the free preaching of the gospel , yeeld so far to the evill disposition of the Prelates as to subscribe , and conforme vnto their ceremonies though they cannot approve of them , nor judge them lawfull . For this is the thing M. B. aymes at , though he carry the matter something covertly , because he would offend neyther party . And to perswade vnto this he brings in Paul , checking himselfe for reviling the high Preist , and observing the legall ceremonyes after abolishment , to procure free liberty to preach the gospell , and after Moses graunting a bill of divorcement ( countrary to the law of mariage ) for the very hardnes of the peoples harts . To this I answer sundry things , as , first to preach the gospell vpon condition of obedience in that wherein a man eyther judgeth or suspecteth himself to sinne , is nothing lesse then to preach the gospell freely : though this be in truth that free preaching of the gospell in the Church of England whereof we heare so many lowd boasts . And to perswade a mā vnto this , is , to perswade him to do evill that good may come thereof , as though the Lord stood ▪ need of mans sinne , for the publishing of his truth , or saving of his elect . The preaching of the gospel is a most excellent thing , and the fruits of it far better then those of Eden ( and oh how happy were we , if with exchaunge of halfe the dayes of our lives we might freely publish it to our own nation , for the converting of sinners ) yet must no mā be so far possessed with the excellēcy of the obiect , ( as were our first parents with the goodnes , bewty , and supposed benefit of the forbidden fruit ) as to presse vnto it by vnlawfull wayes : and for a man to go about to perswade to the practise of a thing by the casuall fruits and effects of it , & not in the meane whyle to cleare the way of feare and scruple of sinne in the meanes of attayning the proposed good , is to go about to deceive him whom he perswadeth , and by a bayt ( as it were ) to til his cōscience , as a byrd into a snare , into most fearful intanglements . And for Paul , as it is a very vngodly suspition cast vpon him , that he should do any thing which he doubted to be syn , or which he did not most assuredly know was pleasing vnto God , so is it very vntruly affirmed that he did that he did , eyther as yeelding to the evil disposition of men , or to procure free liberty to preach the gospel . He did all things most freely and without any respect to humane authority , fulfilling the royall law of love in tendering the weaknes of the brethren newly converted from Iudaism , observing with them the legall rytes , & those also made a part of Gods worship by them , and that without all probability of sinning , whereof you impeach him . Now for Moses he did not graunt , that is , approve of the bill of divorcement , but onely permitted it for the avoyding of a greater evil , which civil Magistrates may do in some cases , which notwithstanding no man vsed without sinne . And what doth this better your popish ceremonies ? The last thing in quaestion is the case of offence , touching which you make many doubts , where the holy ghost makes none ; forgetting your owne good admonition , that men should take heed of g●●●ing distinctions , and other evasion through pollicy or fear of trouble to loose sincerity , where the word is playn . There is not a case in the whole Bible more cleare , then that the things called indifferent ▪ may and ought to be forborne , for the weak conscience of a brother . Rom. 14 15. 20. 21. 1 Cor. 9. 19. 20. 21. 22. & 10. 23. 24 ▪ 28. 29. And yet this clear truth you labour to darken by the mist of mans authority , pretence of good effects , surmises of partiality , humour , and folly in the partyes offended , raysed out of your owne hart . But let vs heare your advise . Quaere , Whether it be an offence iustly given by thee , or taken without iust reason of others : thou not offending and they displeased , the fault is their own and thou not chargeable therewith . But you must vnderstand Mr B. that in the vnseasonable vse of things in themselves indifferent , there is an offence both given & taken , and so a double sinn cōmitted : he that gives the offence sinns through want of charity , and he that takes it through want or weaknes of fayth . And so where actions simply good , do onely hurt him that takes offence ; and actions simply evill , him that gives it ; the vse of things indifferent agaynst expediency , hurts & harmes and destroyes both . Rom. 14. 15. Now the parts of your secōd enquiry , viz. whether men be offended in respect of what themselves know , or butled by affection , disliking of other mens dislike , are insufficient . For men do oft tymes take offence at things done , and yet neyther in respect of their own knowledge nor of other mens dislike , but merely through want of knowledg and vpon ignorance of their christian liberty . And such were the weak brethren spoken of , Rom. 14. 1 Cor. 8. and 9. which how they were to be tendered in their weaknes , let the places iudge . And for persōs partially affectionate , or foolishly froward , which is the mayn point in the 3. Quaere , they are no way to be regarded as weak , but on the contrary to be reproved as wayward & contentious , that folly and sinne may not rest vpon them . Onely let men take heed they iudge not vncharitably of their brethren , because they would practise vncharitably towards them , as † Nabal reviled David and his men as runnagates , because he would deal churlishly with them , and would shew them no mercy . In the forth place it is demaunded . What authority may do in things externall for outward rule in the circumstances of things . How colourably you cary all the abominations in your Church vnder the shadow of circumstances , and of how great moment even circumstances are in the case of religion I have formerly spoken : let me onely ad thus much . If a subject should vsurp the crown , and exercise regall authority , the difference were but in the circumstance of person , which notwithstanding made the action high treason . Or if a Preist comming to say his evensong should fall a sleep on his desk , it were but a matter of circumstance in respect of tyme and place , it might lawfully be done in another place , and at another tyme , yet there & then it were a great prophaning of the service book . What sway authority hath in the Church of England , appeareth in the lawes of the land , which make the goverment of the Church alterable at the Magistrates pleasure : and so the Clergy in their submission to K. Henry 8. do derive , as they pretend , their ecclesiasticall jurisdiction from him , and so exercise it . Indeed many of the late Bishops and their Procters , seeing how monstrous the ministration is of divine things , by an humane authority and calling ; and growing bould vpon the present disposition of the Magistrate , have disclaimed that former title , and do professedly hold their eclesiasticall power and jurisdiction de jure divino , & so consequent●y by Gods word vnalterable . Of whom I would demaund this one quaestion . What if the King should discharge and expell the present ecclesiasticall goverment , & plant in stead of it the Presbytery or Eldership , would they submit vnto the government of the Elders , yea or no ? if yea , then were they traytors to the Lord Iesus submitting to a goverment , overthrowing his goverment , as doth the Praesbyterian goverment , that which is Episcopall ; if no , then how could they free themselves from such imputations of disloyalty to Princes , and disturbance of States , as wherewith they load vs & others opposing them . But to the quaestion it self . As the † kingdom of Christ is not of this world , but spirituall , & he a spiritual King : so must the goverment of this spirituall kingdom vnder this spirituall King needs be spiritual , & all the lawes of it And as Christ Iesus hath by the merits of his Preisthood * redemed as well the body as the soule ; so is he also by the scepter of his Kingdom to rule & reign over both : vnto which Christian Magistrates as well as meaner persons , ought to submit themselves , & the more Christian they are , the more meekly to take the yoke of Christ vpon them , and the greater authority they have , the more effectually to advance his scepter over themselves , & their people by all good meanes . Neyther can there be any reason given , why the merits of saynts , may not as wel be mingled with the merits of Christ for the saving of his Church , as the lawes of men with his lawes , for the ruling and guiding of it . He is as absolute and as intire a King as he is a Preist , and his people must be as carefull to praeserve the dignity of the one , as to enjoy the benefit of the other . The next Quaere , is . Whether authority commaunding doth not take away the offence which might otherwise be given in a voluntary act . This question is answered affirmatively , by the Bishops & their adhaerents , and so with one voice they affirme in their books , pulpits and other publik determinations : but herein as palpably flattering the Magistrate , as ever Canonist did the Pope . What more was ever given to the Pope , then that he might dispence with the morall law . And what lesse is given to the King when by his authority I vse things indifferent with offence to my weak brother ? Is not love † the fulfilling of the law ? And is it not * against the law of love to vse things indifferent with offence ? which must the more carefully be avoyded , cōsidering the effects it drawes with it , which are not onely the grief ( vvhich were too much ) but even the destruction of him for whom Christ dyed , ver . 5. 20. 1 Cor. 8. 11. Onely he which can strengthen the weak faith ( which is the cause of the offence ) can take away the offence , and stablish him that is weak , Rom. 14. 4. Men may and must vse meanes for that purpose , and not nourish the weak in their weaknes , but beare them they must in love , and much love will have much patience . Lastly , ( for I passe over the 5. Quaere as comprehended in those which go before ) where you advise mē to studie , & agayn to study to be quiet , and to follow those things which concerne peace : it is needfull counsel and againe needfull , considering what vnquiet spirits are to be found in all places . Onely let men in their counsayls ( which you leave out ) ioyne with peace “ aedification , and holynes as the scriptures teach , and so * separating the pretious from the vile , they shal be to vs as Gods mouth : and let their peace be in the word of righteousnes , & the ioy of the counselers of peace shal be vpon them , and the blessing of peace-makers vpon their heads . Of Mr B. disswasive probabilities . THe next thing that comes into consideration , is , certayn probabilities & likelyhoods , as the authour calls them , consisting for the most part of personal imputations , & di graceful calumniations , whereby he labours to withdraw the harts of the simple frō the truth of God , unto disobedience , as Absalom did the people into rebellion against the K. by slandering his goverment . 2 Sā . 15. But if Mr Bern. followed his sound judgement in this boo● , as he professeth in the Preface , and so laboured to lead others , he would neyther go himself , nor send them by vnstable guesses and likelyhoods , as he doth . The truth of God goes not by peradventures , neyther needs it any such paper-shot as likelyhoods are to assault the adversary withall . The word of God which is * profitabl● to teach , to reprov● , to correct , and to instruct in righteousnes , is sufficient to furnish the man of God with weapons spirituall , and those “ mighty through God to cast downe strong holds , and whatsoever high thing is exalted against the knowledge of God. And if M. B. speak according to the Law and Prophets , his words are solid arguments , if not , there is neyther light in him , nor truth in them : and so where truth is wanting must some like-truthes , or images of truth be layed in the place , like the image in Davids bed to deceive them that sought after him , when he himself was wanting . 1 Sa● . 19. 13. The first probabilitie that our way is not good , is . The noveltie thereof differing from all the best reformed Churches ●● Christendome . It is no noveltie to hear men plead custome , when they want truth . So the heathen Phylosophers reproched Paul as † a bringer of new doctrine : so do the Papists discountenance the doctrine and profession of the Church of England , yea even at this day , very many of the people in the Land , vse to call Popery the old law , & the profession there made , the new law . But we for our parts , as we do beleeve by the word of God , that the things we teach are not new , but old truthes renued : so are we no lesse fully perswaded , that the Church constitution in which we are set , is cast in the Apostolicall and primitive mould , and not one day nor hower yonger in the nature and forme of it , then the first Church of the new Testament . And whether a people all of them separated , & sanctified ( so farr as men by their fruits can , or ought to judge ) or a mingled generation of the seed of the womā and seed of the serpent be more ancient ; the government of sundry Elders or Bishops with joynt authority over one Church , or of one Nationall , Provincial , or Diocesan Bishop over many hundred or thousand Churches ; the spirituall prayers conceived in the heart of the Ministers according to the present occasions , or necessityes of the Church , or the English service book ; the simple administration of the Sacraments , according to the words of institution , or pompous and carnall complements of cap , coap , surplice , crosse , godfathers , kneeling and the like mingled withall ; I do even refer it to the report of Mr B. owne conscience , be it never so partiall . Now for the differences betwixt the best reformed Churches ( as Mr B. calls them , granting thereby his owne to be the worst ) and vs , they ar extant in print , being few in number , & those none of the greatest weight . But what a volume would these differences make betwixt those reformed Churches , and the vnreformed Churches of England , if they were exactly set downe . And yet for the corruptions reproved by vs in the reformed Church where we live , I do vnderstand by them of good knowledge , and sincerity , that the most or greatest of them are rather in the exequution then in the constitution of the Church . Our differences from the reformed Churches , Mr B. aggravates by two reasons . 1. The first is our separation from them , 2. the 2. certeyne termes of disgrace vttered by Mr Barrow & Mr Greenwood agaynst the Eldership : which Mr Bernard will have vs disclayme . For the first , it is not truely affirmed that we separate from them . What our judgment is of them , our confessions of fayth and other wrytings do testify ; and for our practise , as we cannot possibly ioyn vnto them , would we never so fayne , being vtterly ignorant of their language ; so neither do wee separate from them , save in such particulars as we esteeme evill ; which we also shall endeavour to manifest vnto them so to be , as occasion and meanes shal be offered . And secondly , for the taxations layd by Mr B. and Mr G. vpon the Eldership , or other practise in the reformed Churches , wherein they were any way excessive we both have disclaimed , & alwayes are and shal be ready to disclayme the same . Onely I entreat the godly reader to cōsider , that those things were not spoken by them otherwise , then in respect of those corruptions in the Eldership & els where , which they deemed Antichristian , and evill . Of which respective phrase of speach more hereafter . Lastly if it be likely that our way is not good for the difference it hath from the reformed Churches , and that th● greatne● of the difference appeares by the hard termes given by some of vs agaynst the government there vs●d , th●n sur●ly i● is much more likely , that the way of the vnreformed Church of England is not good , which differeth far more frō the reformed Chu●ches : which difference appeares not onely in most reprochfull termes vsed by the Praelates and their adhaerents against the seekers of reformation comparing them to all vile haeretiques , and seditious persons , but in cruell persequutions raysed agaynst them , and greater then against Papists or Atheists . The second marke by which Mr B. guesseth our way not good is , for that it agreeth so much with the antient schismatiques condemned in former ages by holy and learned men , Luciferians , Donatists , Novattans and Audians . Can our way both be a novelty & new devise , and yet agree so well with the antient schismatiques condemned in former ages ? Contradictions cannot be both true , but may both be false , as these are . The partyes to whome Mr B. likeneth vs were condemned not onely for schisme but for heresy also , as appeares in Epiphanius , Austine , Eusebius and others . And as we have nothing , no not in s●ew like vnto some of them , nor in truth vnto any of them in the things blame worthy in them , so if Mr B. were put to iustify by the word of God the condemnation of some of them , it would put him to more trouble then he is aware of . The Audians dissented from the Nicene Councell about theyr Easter tyme. The Luciferians held the soule of man to be ex traduce , and were therefore accounted Haeretiques , as indeed it was too vsuall a thing in those dayes to reiect men for haeretiques vpon too light causes . And for the Donatists vnto whom Mr Gifford & others would so fayn fashion vs , Mr B. and all others may see the dissimilitude betwixt them & vs in the refutation of that supposed consimilitude . A third evill for which Mr B. would bring our cause into suspition is . The matter of defending our opinions , and proving our assertions by strange and forced expositions of scriptures . Where he also notes in the margent that , the truth needs no such ill means to mainteyne it . What the means are by which the Prelacy against which we witnes is mainteyned , all men know . The flattering of superiours , the oppressing of inferiours , the scoffing , reviling , imprisoning , & persequuting vnto banishment and death of such as oppose it , are the weapōs of the Prelates warfare , by which they defend their tottering Babel . And were it not for the arm of ●lesh by which they hold , and to which they trust , they and their pomp would vanish away like smoke before the wynde , so little weight have they or theyrs in the consciences of any . But let us see wherin we mislead the reader by deceiptful allegations of scriptures . 1. In quoting scriptures by the way that is for things cōming in upon occasion , but nothing to the mayne poynt , &c. And wherefore is this deceiptfull dealing thus to alleadge the scriptures ? Because the simple reader is hereby made beleve , that all is spokē for the question controverted . He is simple & careles also that wil not search the scriptures before he beleve that they ar brought to prove , if he any way suspect it , which who so doth can not be deceived , as is here insinuated . It were to be wished we both † spake and wrote the language of Canaan and none other , and not onely to vse , but even to note the scripture phrase soberly may be to the information and edification of the reader . 2. By vrging commandements , admonitio●s , exhortations , dehortations , reprehensions , and godly examples to prove a falsity . What is falsity but that which is contrary to truth ? and so * the word of God being truth , whatsoever is contrary vnto any part of it whither commaundement , admonition , exhortation &c. is false , so far forth as it is contrary . The similitude you take from a naturall child who for his disobedience is not to be reputed a false child but no good child , is like the rest of the your similitudes . The proportion holds not . Men may have such children as ever were , are and wil be disobedient to their dying day , & yet they remayn theyr children whether they will or no : but if any of Gods child●en prove disobedient , and will not be disclaymed , he can dischilde them for bastards as they are , and the true children of the Divil . Ioh. 8. 44. 3. In alledging Scriptures not to prove that for which to the simple it seems to be alledged but that which is without controversy , taking the thing in questiō for granted . For this I take to be his meaning , though he expresse it ill . The instance he brings of one of vs cyting Act. 20. 21. to prove that all truth is not taught in the Church of England , is , I am perswaded ( if not worse ) mistaken by him . For who would bring Pauls example to shew what the Ministers of England do , and not rather what they should do ? what they do is knowne well enough , and how both they in preaching the will of God , and the people in obeying it , are stinted at the Bishops pleasure . 4 By bringing in places setting forth the invisible Church and holynesse of the members , to set forth the visible Church by , as being proper thereto , as 1 Pet. 2. 9. 10. That the Apostle here speaketh not of the invisible , but of the visible Church , appeareth not by our bare affirmation , which we might set gaynst Mr B. naked contradiction , yea though he bring in D. Allison in the margent to countenance the matter , but by these reasons . 1. Peter being † the Apostle of the Iewes wrote vnto them whose Apostle he was , & vvhom he knew dispersed through Pontus , Galatia , &c. 1 Pet. 1. 1. But Peter was not the Apostle of the invisible , but of the visible Church which he knew so dispersed , where the invisible Church is onely knowne unto God , 2 Tim. 2. 19. 2. The Apostle vseth the words of Moses to the visible Church of the Iewes , Ex. 19. 6. which do therefore well agree to the visible Church vnder the gospell , whose excellency , graces and holynes , do surmount the former by many degrees . 3. Peter wrytes to a Church wherein were Elders and a flock depending vpō them , to be fed & governed by them , 1 Pet ● . 1. 2. 3. which to affirm of the invisible Church is not onely a visible , but even a palpable error . 4. The Apostle wrytes to them which had the word preached amongst them , Chap. 1. 25. And this Mr B. himselfe , pag. 118. 119. makes a note and testimony of the visible Church , and to that pupose quotes the former chap. v. 23. as he doth also this very chap. ver . 5. which is the same with v. 9. 10. to prove the form of the visible Church . And thus I hope it appeares to all men vpon what good groundes this man thus boldly leadeth vs with deceiptfull dealing in the scriptures . And this instance , I desire the reader the more diligētly to observe as being singled out by Mr B. as a pickt witnes against vs , & countenanced by D. Allisons concurring testimony , but especially because it poynts out the Apostolick Churches , clean in contrary colours to the English Synagogues , being vnholy and prophane ; and this is the cause why Mr B. and others are so loth to haue this Scripture ment of the visible Church . 5. By inferences , and references , as if this be one this must follow , and this Mr B. calles a deceiveable and crooked waye for the intangling of the simple . To this I have † answered formerly , and do agayne answer , that necessary consequences & inferences are both lawfull & necessary . If Mr B. had to deale with a Papist agaynst Purgatory or with an Anabaptist for the baptizing of Infants , he should be compelled ( except I be deceived ) to draw his arrowes out of this quiver . And what are consequences regulated by the word ( which * sanctifieth all creatures ) but that sanctified vse of reason ? & wil any reasonable man deny the vse and discourse of reason ? “ If all the things which Iesus did had been written , the world could not have conteyned the books : & if all the dutyes which ly vpon the Church to performe had been written in expresse termes , ( as Mr B. requires ) a world of worlds could not contayne the books which should have been written . Neyther are inferences & references iustly made , any way to be accounted wyndings , but playne passages to the truth , troden before vs by the Lord Iesus and all his holy Apostles , which scarce alledge one scripture of three out of Moses and the Prophets but by way of inference , as all that will , may see . But the truth is Mr Bern. hath so many times been driven to so grosse absurdities by a consequence or two about this cause , as he vtterly abhorrs the very memory of all cōsequences , & it seems would have it enacted , that never consequence should be more vrged . To conclude , whatsoever it pleaseth this man to suggest , the mayne grounds , for which we stand touching the cōmunion , government , ministery , and worship of the visible Church , are expresly conteyned in the scriptures and that ( as we are perswaded ) so plainly , that as like Habbakuks vision , he * that runnes may read them . The 4. guesse against vs is . That we have not the approbation of any of the reformed Churches for ou● course , and that where our Confession of faith is without allowance by them , they give on the contrary the right hand of fellowship to the Church of England . This is the same in substance with the first instance of probability , and that which foloweth in the next place the same with them both . And Mr Bern. by his so ordinary pressing vs with humane testimonies shewes himself to be very barren of divine authority : as hath bene truely noted by another . Nature teacheth every creature , in all daunger to fly first and oftenest to the chief instruments eyther of offence , or defence , wherin it trusteth , as the But to his horne , the Bore to his tusk , and the byrd vnto her wing : right so this man shewes wherein his strength lies , and wherein he trusts most , by his so frequent and vsuall shaking the horne and whetting the tusk of mortall mans authority against vs. But for the reformed Churches the truth ●s they neyther do imagine , no nor wil easily be brought to beleeve that the frame of the Church of England stands as it doth : neyther have they any mind to take knowledge of those things , or to enter into examination of them . The approbation which they give of you ( as Mr A. hath observed ) as indeed it is of speciall observation ) is in respect of such generall truthes of doctrine , as wherein we also for the most part acknowledge you : which notwithstanding you deny in a great measure in the particulars , and practise . But touching the gathering , & governing of the Church , which are the mayn heads cōtroverted betwixt you & vs ; they give you not so much as the left hād of fellowship , but do on the contrary turne their backs vpon you . The difference betwixt you and them in the gathering and constituting of Churches is as great as betwixt copulsive conformity vnto the service book and ceremonyes , which is your estate , and voluntary submission vnto the gospell by which all & every member of them is ioyned to the Church , and as is betwixt the reigne of one Lord Bishop over many Churches , and the government of a Presbytery or company of Elders over one . And if you would take viewe of this difference nearer home , do but cast your eyes to your next neyghbours of Scotland & there you shall see the most zealous Christians chusing rather to loose liberty , country , and life then to stoop to a far more easy yoke then you bear . Yea what need I send you out of your owne horizon ? The implacable & mortall hatred the Prelates bear vnto the Ministers and people wishing the government and Ministery receaved in the reformed Churches proclaymes aloud the vtter emnity betwixt them , & your vnreformed Church of England , of which I pray you hear with patience what some of your own have testified . Those that will needs be our Pastors and spirituall fathers are become beasts as the Prophet Ieremy sayth . And if we should open our mouthes , to sue for the true shepheards and overseers indeed vnto whose direction we ought to be committed , the rage of these wolves is such as this endeavour would almost be the price of our lives . And do these Churches like sisters go hand in hand together as is pretended ? Now for vs , where Mr B. affirmeth that wee published our confession but without allowance , if I saw not his frowardnes in the things he knowes , I should marvayl at his bouldnes in the things whereof he is ignorant , we published the confessiō of our fayth to the Christian Vniversityes in the low countryes and els where , entreating them in the Lord , eyther to convince our errours by the word of God ( if so any might be found , ) or if our testimony in theyr iudgments agreed with the same word , to approve it eyther by wryting , or silence , as they thought good . Now what Vniversity , Church , or person amongst them hath once enterprized our conviction ? which without doubt some would have done ( as with such haeretiques or schismatiques as arise amongst them ) had they found cause ? Thus much of the learned abroad : in the next place Mr B. drawes vs to the learned at home , from whose dislike of vs he takes his fifth Likelyhood , which he thus frameth . The condemnation of this way by our divin●s both living and dead , against whom either for godlynes of life , or truth of doctrine , otherwise the● for being theyr opposites , they can take no exception . No mervayl : we may not admit of partyes for iudges : how is it possible we should be approved of them in the things wherein we witnes against them ? And if this Argument be good or likely , then is it likely that neyther the reformists have the truth in the Church of England , nor the Prelates , for there are many and those both godly and learned , which in their differences do oppose , and that very vehemently the one the other . Now , as for myne owne part , I do willingly acknowledge the learning & godlynes of most of the persons named by Mr B. & do honour the very memory of some of them , so do I neyther think thē so learned , but they might erre ; nor so godly , but in their error they might reproch the truth they saw not . I do indeed confesse to the glory of God , and myne owne shame , that a long tyme before I entered this way , I took some tast of the truth in it by some treatises published in iustificatiō of it , which ( the L. knoweth were sweet as hony vnto my mouth ; and the very principall thing , which for the tyme quenched all further appetite in me , was the over-valuation which I made of the learning and holynes of these , and the like persons , blushing in my selfe to have a thought of pressing one hayr bredth before them in this thing , behynde whom I knew my selfe to come so many miles in all other things ; yea and even of late tymes , when I had entered into a more serious consideration of these things and ( according to the measure of grace received ) serched the scriptures , whether they were so or no , and by searching found much light of truth , yet was the same so dimmed and overclouded with the contradictions of these men and others of ●he like note , that had not the truth been in my heart as a burning fyre shut vp in my bones Ier. 20. 9. had never broken those bonds of ●lesh and blood , wherein I was so streytly tyed , but had suffered the light of God to have been put out in myne owne vnthankfull heart by other mens darknes . This reverence every man stands bound to give to the graces of God in other men , that in his differences from them , he be not suddaynly nor easily perswaded , but that being iealous of his owne hart , he vndertake the examination of things & so proceed , with fear , and trembling , & so having tryed all things , keep that which is good . 1. Thes. 5. 21. So shall he neither wrong the graces of God in himselfe , not in others . But on the othersyde for a man so farr to suffer his thoughts to be conjured into the circle of any mortall man or mens iudgment , as eyther to feare to try what is offered to the contrary , in the ballance of the sanctuary , or fynding it to bear weight , to feare to give sentence on the Lords syde , yea though it be agaynst the mighty , this is to honour men above God , and to advance a throne above the throne of Christ , who is Lord and King for ever . And to speak that in this case which by dolefull experience I my selfe have found , many of the most forward professors in the kingdome are wel nigh as superstitiously addicted to the determinations of their guids and teachers , as the ignorant Papists vnto theyrs , accounting it not onely needles curiosity , but even intollerable arrogancy to call into question the things receaved from them by tradition . But how much better were it for all men to lay asyde these & the like prejudices , that so they might vnderstand the things which concern theyr peace , and seeing with theyr own eyes , might live by theyr owne fayth . And for these famous men here named by Mr B. ( with whose oppositiōs as with Zidkijahs horns of iron he would push us here and every where ) ; as we do beare theyr reproofs with patience , & acknowledg theyr worthes without envy , or detraction , so do we know they were but men , and so through humayn fraylty might be abused as well ( or rather as ill ) to support Antichrist in a measure , as others before them have been , ( though godly , and learned , as they . ) It will not be denyed but the fathers ( as they are called ) Ignatius , Irenaeus , Tertullian ▪ Ciprian , Ambrose , Ierom , Austin , and the rest were both godly and learned ; yet no man ( if he have but even saluted them ) can be ignorant , what way ( though vnwittingly ) they made for the advauncement of Antichrist which followed after them : And if they notwithstanding theyr learning and godlines thus vshered him into the world , why might not others ( and that more likely ) though learned and godly as the former , help to beare vp his trayne ? espcially considering , that as his rising was not , so neyther could his fall be perfected at once . And for vs , what do we more or otherwise for the most part , then walk in those wayes into which divers of the persons by Mr B. named , have directed vs by the word of God , in manifesting vnto vs by the light thereof what the ministery , goverment , worship , and fellowship of the Gospell ought to be ? we then being taught , and beleeving , that the word of God is a light & a lanthorne not onely to our eyes , but to our feet & pathes ( as the psalmist speaketh ) Psal. 119. 105. cannot possibly conceave how we should iustly be blamed by these men for observing the ordinances which themselves not onely acknowledged , but contended for , as appoynted by Christs testamēt to be kept inviolable till his appearing , as some of them have expresly testifyed . To conclude , let not the Christian reader cast our persons , & the persons of our opposites whither these or others , in the ballāce together , but rather our cause , and reasons with theyr oppositions and the grounds of them , and so with a steady hand , & vnpartiall ●y wey and poyze cause with cause , that so the truth of God may not be prejudiced by mens persons , nor held in respect of them . And to your marginall note , viz. that ●●ne of vs vvhom you call guids did fall to this course before wee were in trouble and could not inioy our liberty as we desired , I do onely ansvver this one thing , that all and every one of vs might have inioyed both our liberty , and peace at the same wofull rate with you and your fellowes . The Lords judgment giving sentence with him and his Church against us . But wherein appeares that Mr B ? ● . By the blessing of God ( you tell vs ) vpon your ministery , by which people are wonne truly to sanctification of life , and that we ( on ●●e contrary ) work but vpon the labours of other men . 1. Considering the multitude of Ministers in the kingdome and theyr long continuance in theyr Ministery , there is in the most parts of the land no such cause of so loud boasts as are h●re made . There is nothing more cōmon both in the sermons and wrytings of the forwarder sort , then their complaints how little good theyr preaching hath done , howsoever with vs for advantage they plead the contrary . But let it be as Mr B. sayth that they win men to sanctification of life , and that we work but vpon theyr labours , his owne words shall iudge him , wherin he doth directly overthrow that he would establish , & establish that he would so fayn overthrow . The Ministers of the Church of England do win men to true sanctification of life , then the people over whome they are set are not truely sanctified , then not true saynts , then no true members of the Church : and therefore that no true body of Christ consisting of such members . Wee work vpon other mens labours : and so true ordinary Elders do : whose office stands in feeding , and not in begetting . The Elders which the Apostles ordeyned were set over them which † beleeved in the Lord ; and* the overseers or Bishops made by the holy Ghost were over such a ●lock , as all whereof were purchased with the blood of Christ , ( so far as men could iudge . ) We do not dispise the conversion of a sinner ( as Mr B. odionsly traduceth vs , ) but do with men and Angels blesse the Lord for that mercy vpon our selves & others , onely weedare not stand Ministers to an vnconverted people nor dispence vnto thē the holy things of God , to which we know they have no right , how bold soever Mr B. and his brethren make with the Lord and his ordinances this vvay . And so I passe to the second proof . 2 The blessing of God assisting vs walking in our way with the reformed Churches hath from Luthers time made prosperous our way by him , and other glorious instruments , and in few yeares spread the truth to many nations , &c. He that would not in the words before going work vpon the labours of other men , will now make boast of them : but in stead of proving his likelyhoods by this dealing , he is iustly to be reproved of two falshoods . The one is , that he wil bear the world in hand that his way , & the way of the reformed Churches are one , whereas the wayes of the Church of England wherein we forsake her , do directly and ex diametro , crosse and thwart the wayes of the reformed Churches : as appeares in these three mayne heads . 1. The reformed Churches are gathered of a free people ioyned together by voluntary profession without compulsion of humane lawes . On the contrary the Church of England consists of a people forced together violently by the lawes of men into their Provinciall , Diocesan and Parishionall Churches ( as their houses stād ) be they never so vnwilling or unfit . 2. The reformed Churches do renounce the Ministery of the Church of Engl : as she doth theirs : not admitting of any by vertue of it to charge of soules : ( as they speak ) where on the cōtrary all the masse-preists made in Queen Maryes dayes , which would say their book-service in English , were cōtinued Ministers by the same ordination which they received from the Popish Prelates . 3. The government by Archbishops , Lord Bishops , and their substitutes in the Church of England is abhor●ed and disclaymed in the reformed Churches as Antichristian : as is on the contrary the Presbyterian government ( in use there ) by the Church of England refused , as Anabaptisticall , and seditious . Now if Mr B. can at once walk in so many & so contrary wayes , he had need have as many feet as the Polypus hath . Secondly , understanding by his Churches way such doctrines & ordinances as wherein we oppose it it is an empty boast to affirm that the same is spread into other nations . Which are the nations , or what may be their names , which eyther do reteyn or have received the Prelacy , Ministery , service book , canons and confused cōmixture of all sorts now in vse in the Church of England ? But Mr B. having ( as he boasts ) God , Angels , and men on his side proceeds in the next place to plead agaynst vs Gods iudgments , who seemeth ( as he sayth ) from the first beginning to be offended with our course . And intending principally in this whol discourse to oppresse vs with contumelyes , & by them to alienate all mens affections frō vs , he ra●eth together into this place , as into a dung-hil of sla●der and misreport whatsoever he thinks may make vs and our cause stink in the nostrels of the reader . And so forging some things in his own brayne , and enforcing other things ( true in themselves ) with most odious aggrevations , he presents vs to the view of the world , with such personall infirmities , and humayn fraylties written in our foreheads , as the Lord hath le●t vpon the sonnes of men for their humbling . And the world wanting spirituall eyes & beholding the Church of Christ with the eyes of flesh & blood , & seing it compassed about with so many infirmities , & falling into so many & manyfold tryals and temptations , is greatly offended , & passeth vnrighteous judgement vpon the servants of God , and blasphemeth their most holy profession . But let all men learn not to behould the Church of Christ with carnall eyes , which like fearfull spyes will discourage the people , but with the eyes of fayth and good conscience , which like Ioshua and Caleb will speak good of the promised Land , the spirituall Canaan , the Church of God. But to the poynt . That Mr B. may make sure work he strikes at the head , and whetteth his toung like a sword , and shooteth bitter words like arrowes at such principall men , as God hath raysed vp in this cause , whereof some have persevered , and stood fast vnto death , others have fallen away in the day of temptation , whose end hath been worse ●hen theyr beginning . The first person in whome he instanceth is one Boulton , touching whō he wryteth thus : that he being the first broacher of this way came to as fearefull an end as Iudas did : adding therevpon , that God suffereth not his speciall instruments called forth otherwise then after a common course to come to such ends . To this I do first answer , that neither this man was nor any other of vs is called forth by the Lord otherwise then after a cōmon course : even that which is common to all Gods people , which is to come out of Babylon , and to bring theyr best gifts to Syon for the buylding of the Lords temple there . It is true that Boulton was ( though not the first in this way ) an Elder of a separated Church in the beginning of Queen Elizabeths dayes , and falling away from his holy profession recanted the same at Pauls Crosse , & afterwards hung himself as Iudas did ▪ And what marvayl if he which had betrayed Christ in his truth , as Iudas did in his person , came to the same fearefull end which Iudas did ? Nay rather the patience and long suffering of God is to be mervayled at that others also , who eyther have embraced this truth and after faln from it , or refused to submit vnto it when they have both seen and approved it , have not been pursued by the same revengefull hand of God. And for the promise of Gods presence with his , Gen. 12. 3. Math. 28. 20. Ios. 1. 9. it must ever be taken conditionally , viz. whylest they are with him and do his work faythfully as they ought , and no further . Now touching Browne it is true which Mr B. affirmeth that as he forsook the Lord so the Lord forsook him in his way : and so he did his owne people Israel many a tyme. And if the Lord had not forsaken him he had never so returned back into Egypt as he did to live of the spoyles of it , as is sayd he speaketh . And for the wicked things ( which Mr B. affirmeth ) he did in this way , it may well be as he sayth ▪ and the more wicked things he committed in this course , the ●esse like he was to continue long in it , and the more like to returne againe to his proper centre the Church of England where he should be sure to find companions ynough in any wickednes , as it came to passe . Lastly to let passe the vniversall Apostasy of all the Bishops , Ministers , students in the Vniversityes , yea and of the whole Church of England in Queen Maryes tyme ( a handfull onely excepted in comparison ) which the Papists might more colourably vrg against Mr B. thē he some few instāces against vs ) the fall of † Iudas an Apostle , of * Nicholas one of the first 7 Deacōs , of † Demas one of Pauls speciall companions in the Ministery , do sufficiently teach vs that there is no cause so holy , nor calling so excellent , which is not subject to the invasion of paynted , and deceiptfull hyppocrites , whose service the Lord notwithstanding may vse for a tyme till theyr whyting be worne of , & then leave them to their own deceavable ●usts , which will work theyr most wofull downfall : thereby warning his people not to repose too much vpon any mortall man in whome there is no stedfastnes , but to cast theyr eyes vpon him a●one and vpon his truth which chaungeth not . Of Mr Barrow and Mr Greenwoods spirit of rayling ( as this man rayleth against them ) in another place . Onely let the indifferent reader iudge whither Mr B. in blazing abroad the personal infirmityes of his adversaries without any occasion , neyther sparing the living nor the dead , have not come to the very highest pitch of the most natural rayling that may be . A practise which all sober mynded men do abhor from . The next that comes in Mr B. way are the two brethren Mr Francis & Mr George Iohnson , whose contentions he exagge●ateth what he can to make both their persons and cause odious . True it is that George Iohnson together with his father taking his part , were excommunicated by the Church for contention arising ●t the first vpon no great occasion , wherevpon many bitter and ●eprochful termes were vttered both in word and writing , George ●ecōming ( as Mr B. chargeth him ) a disgracefull libeller . It is to vs iust cause of humiliation all the dayes of our lives , ●hat we have given and do give by our differences such advantages ●o them which seek occasion agaynst vs to blaspheme the truth : ●hough this may be a iust iudgment of God vpon others which ●●ek offences , that seeking they may find them to the hardening of ●heyr hearts in evill . But let men turne theyr eyes which way soever ●hey will , and they shall see the same scandalls . Look to the first ●nd best Churches planted by the Apostles themselves , and be●old † dissentions , scandall , strise , byting one of another . About two hundred yeares after Christ , what a styrr was there about moone-shyne in water ( as we speak ) betwixt the East and West Churches , when Victor Bishop of Rome excōmunicated the Churches in Asia for not keeping the Iewish feast of Easter at the same time with the Church of Rome ? And to come nearer our own tymes , how bitter was Luther agaynst Swinglius & Calvin in the matter of the Sacrament ? & how implacable is the hatred at this day of them whom they call Lutherans against the followers of the other partyes ? Take yet one instance more and in it a view of the very height of humayne fraylty this way . The exiled Church at Frankford in Queen Maryes dayes bred and nourished within it self such contentious , as that one accused another to the Magistrate of treason , wherevpon Mr Knox was compelled to fly for feare of trouble . I could also alledge to the present purpose the state of the reformed Churches amongst which we live , whose violent oppositions , & fiery cōtentiōs do far exceed all ours : but I take no delight in writing these things , neyther do I think the needles dissentions which have bene amongst vs the lesse evill because they are so common to vs with others , but these things I have layd downe to make it appeare , that Mr B. here vseth none other weapon agaynst vs then Iewes , and Pagans might have done against Christians , and Papists against such as held the truth against them , yea and then Atheists and men of no religion might take vp against all the professions and religions in the world . And ( to go no further ) the irrecōciliable emnity betwixt the Prelates & reformists about cap , surplice , crosse and the like , ( which the patrons of them acknowledg trifles ) might well have stopped Mr B. mouth from vpbrayding any with fyery contentions vpon small occasions . And touching the heavy sentence of excommunication , by which the father and brother were dilivered vp to the Divill , as Mr B. speaketh , I desyre the reader to consider , that , if excommunication be ( as indeed it is ) so heavy a sentence and that by it the party sentenced be delivered over to the Divill , the Church of England is in heavy case which playes with excommunications as children do with rattles . And to allude to the word Mr B. vseth , in what a divelish case are eyther ▪ the Prelates and convocation house which have † ipso facto excōmunicated all that speak or deale against theyr State , Ceremonyes & servise book , since the curse caus●es falls vpon the head of him from whom it comes , or the reformists , ( wherof M. B. would be one by fits ) & such as seek for and interprise reformation ? And for the particular in hand , howsoever it may seeme an odious thing vnto the naturall man , which savors not the things of God , nor the vnpartiall ordinances of the Lord Iesus , and would be a matter of wonder that a man should censure , or consent to the censuring of his father or brother , in the Church of England , where a good word of a freind or a small bribe may stay the excommunication of the grossest offender , yet if there be iust cause ( though with extraordinarie sorrow for the occasion ) † Christ in his ordinance must be preferred before father and brother , yea & mother & sister also . Yea & it shal be the seal of his ministerie upon that sonne which in the observance of the word of the Lord , and in the keeping of his covenant sayth vnto his father , mother , brother , yea & own children , I know you not . The next Mr. B. obiecteth is Mr Burnet , who , died of the plague in prison , whether he was committed by the Archprelate . And so did Mr Holland and Mr Parker in the same City at the same tyme , as I remember : and so did Iunius and Trel●atius the two divinity professors at Leyden at an other tyme vpon the same infection . And was the plague Gods fearfull correcting rod vpon these men because their religion was false , or rather would any man knowing the scriptures and the Lords dispensations towards his Church argue as this man doth ? * If iudgment thus begin at Gods house , what shall the end of them be which obey not the gospell of God ? But if Mr B. will bring against vs all the persons which the Bishops have killed in their prisons by this and the like meanes ( as David did Vrijah by the sword of the Amonites ) he may overthwelm vs with witnesses : but his argument shal be much what of the same nature with that of the Caian haeretiques , which affirme that Cain was a good man , and conceaved by a superiour power vnto Abel , because he prevayled against him , and slew him . Lastly for Mr Smyth , as his instability & wantonnes of wit is his syn , & our crosse , so let M. B. & all others take heed that it be not their hardning in evill . Mr B. in proceeding to point out the hand of God writing heavy things against vs , chargeth us ( by Mr Whytes testimony ) with such notable crimes , and detestable vncleannesses , as from which they in the Church of England eyther truely fearing God , or but making an apparent sh●w thereof are so praeserved by God , as they cannot be taynted with such evils , as some of vs oft times fall into . As the witnes well ●its the cause and person alledging him , who ( according to the Proverb ) may ask his fellow , &c. so have his slaunders been answered as Mr Bernard knowes , whereof it seems the party himself is ashamed , and so might Mr B. have been , had he not been shameles in accusing the brethren . Now for the things objected , it is first to be noted how Mr B. affirmeth , that none with them eyther truely fearing God , o● making an apparent shew thereof , falls into such notable crimes , &c. wherein he acknowledgeth that a great part of the Church of Engl : neyther truly feares God , not makes apparent shew of it . How then are all of them saynts by calling , and where is that profession of faith for which they are to be held true members of the Church ? And what detestable crimes the members of the Church of England fall into , ( if there were none other testimony ) the very gallowes , & gibbets in every country declare sufficiently , vpon which for treason , witchcraft , incest , buggery , rape , murders and the like , the members of that Church ( so living and dying ) do receive condigne punishmēt : Where with vs if any such enormities arise ( as what temptations have befallen any we are subiect unto the same ) those monsters ( without their answerable repentance ) are by the power of Christ cut of from the body , & do for the most part returne to their proper element the English synagogue . But what if all were true which Mr B. avoucheth , what advantage hath he more against vs then the heathen Corinthians had against the Church there , where * such fornication was found , as was not once named among the Gentiles ? Mr B. having thus handled ( as you see ) some particular , and principall persons , proceeds to set vpon the whole body in general , as if with the accuser of the brethren he had obteyned liberty to strike the same from the crown of the head to the sole of the foot with the boyles and borches of reproch : & therefore writeth that If men be but inclinable to this way , they iudge the Minister to have lost the power of his Ministery , wherein the fault is in the alteration of their owne affections , and if they be once entered into it , they are then so bewitched , as that where before they were humble and tractable , they then become proud and wilfull , where before they could with vnderstanding discern betwixt cause and cause , they then lick vp all that comes from themselves as Oracles though never so absurd , where before they could feel in themselves lively markes of the children of God , & so iudge of others , they then are perswaded against former fayth to think that neyther themselves had , nor others have any outward markes of the children of God. Let the reader here observe in the first place that Mr B. accounts all them inclinable to this way which dislike comformity & subscription in the Ministers ; for them onely D. Downame ( whose Epistle before his second sermon he quotes in the margent ) entendeth , & they only are the men which iudge the cōfirming Ministers to have lost the power of their Ministery . And that their iudgmēt is most sound generally of such Ministers as having formerly refused ceremonyes & subscription do afterward bow vnto the same , all men of vnderstanding do discern . To the chalenge of pryde and wilfulnes vpon them in this way though before they were humble and tractable I do answer , that as true humility is ever commendable so is there also a sinful subiection and submission of mynd , by which spirituall tyrants according to theyr fleshly wisdom in volūtary religion would rule over the cōsciences of the simple , of which the Apostle warneth vs , Col. 2. 18. which superstitious humility or humble superstition if the servants of God begin to shake of & to stand for that liberty so dearly bought by Christ , and so highly commended by the Apostles of Christ , then begin these imperious Maysters to rage , thinking by reproches to compell them againe under that subiection , in which by former delusions they could not conteyn them . Thus dealt the bloody Bishops with the servants of God in Queen Maries dayes , calling them proud , wilfull , conceyted , & what evill not ? and very well do the like accusations become Mr B. mouth in the like case . Whether our opinions ( which we are charged by Mr B. to lick vp as Oracles ) be absurd or no , will appeare in the discussing of them in the sequell of the book : in the mean whyle this is most true and vndeniable , that a great part of the splene vttered against vs in this invective grew from this very cause , that sundry of his hea●ers would not lick vp whatsoever he powred out vnto them though bitter as gall : as that Ministers were not brethren properly , that the Church had some power to excommunicate because the Minister ( as the officials exequutioner ) might read the sentence , that the Churchwardens were Elders , the midwyves widdowes , and many the like , which to reckon vp is to confute sufficiently . Lastly it is a great wrong which Mr B. offereth vs in affirming , that if we be once in this fraternity ( as he scoffeth at our holy covenāt ) we then dislike our former graces , and ar content to be perswaded against our former fayth and feeling in our selves of the lively markes of the children of God , & all because we were as a dear without the compasse of our Park , as he speaketh . We do with all thankfulnes to our God acknowledg , and with much cōfort remember those lively feelings of Gods love , & former graces wrought in vs , & that one special grace amōgst the rest by which we have been enabled to drawe ourselves into visible Covenant , and holy communion . Yea with such comfort and assurance do we call to mynde the Lords work of old this way in vs , as we doubt not but our salvation was sealed vp vnto our consciences by most infallible marks and testimonyes ( which could not deceave ) before we conceaved the least thought of separation ; and so we hope it is with many others in the Church of Engl. yea and of Rome too . And the more ample measure of grace , and fullnes of assurance that any man hath receaved of the Lord , the more carefully is he to endeavor in all good conscience the knowledge & obedience of all and every one of the holy commaundements of God , and not to satisfy himselfe in his present feelings , thinking his salvation sure enough , and so his obedience full enough ( for this were to serve God for wages as hypocrytes do ) but rather with the Apostle † forgetting those things which are behynd , and forcing to those things which are before , let him follow hard to the mark for the price of the high calling of God in Christ Iesus . And whatsoever Mr B. iudgeth of a deer without the Parke pale wherein he should be , sure it is that he is none of Christs sheep ( visibly or in respect of men ) which is without Christs sheepfold . For * there is one sheepsould , and one sheepheard . The last coniecture gathered agaynst our cause is , The ill successe it hath had these very many yeares , being no more increased , where the encreasings of God are great , &c. As it is alwayes safer to proceed by the causes & reasons of things then by theyr events and successe , so especially is this rule of vse in the case of religion , whose way as it is in it selfe narrow and found by few , how much more being streytned by the fyery persequutions of the wicked world . Indeed the Church of England hath advantage of vs and ( as I suppose ) of all the Churches in the world for monstrous speedy growth , and encrease , for that of a Synagogue of Satan consisting of Popish Idolaters , and cruel murderers of the saynts , it grew fro top to toe into a true and intire body of Christ of a suddayn , & before the greatest part of it so much as heard the gospel preached in any measure for their conversion . But consider herein M. B. dealing : He spares no vngodly means in this his book , and otherwayes , by slaundering our persons , by falsyfying our opinions , by exaggerating our infirmities , by incensing the Magistrate against vs , to suppresse vs , and yet reprocheth vs because we grow no faster : dealing with vs much what as the Iewes did with Christ when they blindfolded him first , & then bad him prophesie who smote him , Luk. 22. 64. But let it be as Mr B. would have it , that the cause of religion is to be measured by the multitude of them that professe it , yet must it further be considered , that religiō is not alwayes ●own & reaped in one age : * One soweth and another reapeth . Iohn Husse and Ierom of Prage finished their testimony in Bohemia , and at Constance a hundred yeres before Luther , & Wickliffe in England wel nigh as long before them , and yet neyther the one nor the other with the like successe vnto Luther . And the many that are already gathered by the mercy of God into the kingdome of his sonne Iesus , & the nearnes of many more through the whol land ( for the regions are white vnto the harvest ) do promise within lesse then an hundred yeres ( if our sinnes & theirs make not vs and them vnworthy of this mercy ) a very plenteous harvest . That wee have been here and there vp and down without sure footing , is our portiō in this present evil world cōmon to vs with the more worthy servants of God going before vs , who* have wandred in wildernesses and mountaines and dennes and caves of the earth . The sa●ne answer may serve for that other approbation of vs , That , wee onely have toleration in a place , where the enemies of Christ may be as well as wee . Yea though we were not so much as tolerated , but on the cōtrary persecuted to the death , where the enemies of Christ were not onely tolerated but even approved yea the persequuters of vs , for the cause of Christ , what were this but to partake in the fellowship of his afflictions with the holy Prophets and Apostles , and other his most faithful servants . And I wil tel you Mr B. in the presence of God what my perswasion is in this case , that as we have onely toleration in the City where we live , where the enemies of Christ are tolerated with vs , so all that truely feare God whether Ministers or private people have onely toleration in your Church , & no approbation by the canons and constitutions of it . And for the leading of the people out of one nation into another of a strange language , it is our great crosse ( but no syn at all ) and should rather move you and others to compassion towards vs , then thus to insult over vs in our exile . But your addition , that we do this without compulsion is most shameles , you your self both beholding and furthering our most violent persecutiō . But see your equal dealing with vs , whilst we taryed in the kingdom you blamed vs because we got vs not gone , now we are gone you find fault we tarry not . For your marginall note that , Israel left not Egypt without Pharaohs leave , nor the Iewes Babylon without Cyrus his consent . To let passe the leave which Pharaoh gave the Israelites to depart , when to reduce them back , he and his people followed them into the sea ; they could not depart sooner ( though they would ) being held in bōdage by their enemies , yet when Moses was in daunger of his life as we are , he fled as we do . Exod. 2. 15. Besides , the Israelites had the certayn known time of their captivities limitted & prescribed by God , which they were to tary . Gen. 15. 13. 14. Exod. 12. 40. 41 Ier. 25. 11. 12. Dan. 9. 2. Ezra 1. 1. which is no way our cafe . And what other do we in flying then the holy Prophets and Apostles have done before vs , and then the Protestants did in Queen Maries reigne , that fled to Frankford , Geneva , and other places , where they understood not the language of other nations ? yea then the Lord Iesus himself hath sanctifyed not onely “ by his commaundement , or license at the least , but also in his owne person † flying into a Aegypt in his mothers armes ? Reason see I none why this man should thus blame vs for our flying , except vvith the Montanists he thought flight in the time of persecution unlavvfull . Lastly , Mr B. concludeth his likelihoods vvith a cursed farewell , which ( saith he ) we leave in all places , like a scorching flame swinging where it comes , so as the growth of all things are hindred by it . And this observation he fathers upon me though in truth it be his owne bastard . I affirmed in deed that where this truth came , it left the places barrayn of good things in taking away the best sort of people , but this I spake to no such purpose as is here insinuated . The scorching flame which hinders all things in the Church of England is the Prelacy , to which ( by vniversall and infallible observation ) no man applyes himself , no nor enclynes , but with a sensible decay of the former graces which he seemed to have . He that but once enters into the High preists hall to warme himselfe at the fyre there , shall scarce return without a scorched conscience . Having formerly viewed Mr B. his bare probabilities , we will now come to debate his reasons against separation . The first sort whereof are grounded vpon the entrance into this cause , which he makes very sinfull , and cursed , because of the great evils , which ( sayth he ) ensue therevpon . And the first of these imputed evills is , That we not onely disclayme and conde●n● the corruptions and notorious wicked , but withall forsake all Christian profession amongst them , casting off the word by which wee were made alive , the ministers our fathers which have begot vs , yea and all fellowship of the godly with them , and so account them ever false Christians , and Idolaters , having a false faith , false repentance , & false baptisme . And from these evils thus suggested he both disswades the reader with some passionate Rhyme in the margent , and deterrs him by sundry bitter curses cast out against vs both in the margent and text . There is no truth of doctrine , nor ordinance of Christ taught or practised in the Church of England which we enioy not , with farr more libertie , better right , and greater purity then any person in England doth or can , as Mr Ber. knoweth right well ; & for the good graces of God in many , wee do both know , & acknowledge them , and it is our great grief ( though their owne fault ) that we cannot have communiō with the persons in whom so eminent graces of God are : and if there be any of them which are sory for our departure from the assemblies , we are much more sory ( & so have more cause ) for their continuance in the same . In which their estate whilst we withdraw ourselves from them , we do in no sort condemn their persons , ( which stand or fall to the Lord ) much lesse any good thing in them , or truth amongst them . It is one thing simply to condemn that which is good for evill , and another thing to forbeare the vse of it in the concrete , for the commixture of evil , from which in that vse it is inseparable . When Paul forbad the Corinthians to eat and drink in the Idol temples , 1 Cor. 10. 20. ●1 . he did not condemne meat , & drink . Neyther did the same Apostle when he directed the same Corinthians to excommunicate the incestuous person , and so to have no fellowship with him , 1 Cor. 5. enjoyne them to renounce the fayth which that person professed , or the baptisme which they with him had received . And as a Church excommunicating an offender for some one scandalous sin and so refusing all communion with him , cannot be chalenged for renouncing or reiecting the faith which that person professeth , or any other personall good thing appearing in him ; so neyther may any person or persons forsaking a Church and all fellowship with it for some one or few iust causes , iustly be accused as renouncing or disclayming the other good things there remayning . Lastly let me ask Mr B. whether he disclayme one God sub●●sting in three persons , & one Lord Iesus God and man , and withall , the Christian vertues of zeale , patience , temperance , humility ▪ meeknes , and the like . And why not he as well in refusing communion with the Church of Rome where these things are to be found , as we in disclayming the Church of Engl. where the same and other the like good things are known to be ? Thus when a mans eyes are blynded , by partiality towards himselfe , and his mouth opened by mallice against his adversary , it is mervaylous to see what vnequall judgment he will passe . But least Mr B. in charging our beginning ( as he doth ) as accursed , vncharitable , vnnaturall , and vngodly , might seeme to curse where God curseth not , he annexeth certayn portions of scripture , which he also sets downe at large , as though they made largely against vs , and our separation , and the end why he alleadgeth them is to prove that there is cause of reioycing in the Church of England . The scriptures are these . Rom. 15. 17. 18. Act. 10. 34. 35. Rom. 14. 17. 18. To which I do answer first in generall . There may be & oft tymes is cause of reioycing in the events and issues of things by a speciall hand of God determining them , though the secundary meanes and instruments which the Lord vseth for the producing , and bringing forth of these issues & events ( as of light out of darknes ) be most accursed . Wherein more , or els , hath a christian heart cause of reioycing then in the death of Christ ? And yet what can be imagined more abominable then the meanes and instruments of working it . But to speak nearer Mr B. purpose . If some Iesuite , or other , sent by the Pope into America amongst the Pagans and Infidels , should there perswade any to beleeve & confesse one God , and his sonne Iesus Christ made man for the redemption of the world , & that they should also give vp their lives for these truthes , there were cause of reioycing in theyr testimony , and yet I suppose Mr B. ( knowing as he doth ) would be loath to have communion in the Iesuits Ministery . More particularly . The Apostle Rom. 15. 17 18. in commendation of his Apostleship layes downe the effects of it and how great cause of reioycing he had , that God by his ministery had planted the Churches of the Gentiles whom he further describes by theyr obedience in word and deed . And how serves this for the Church of England ? Thus. It serves first to exclude all those word Saynts for whom Mr B. pleads so much in his book . Secondly it serves to shew what small cause there is of reioying for the English Churches being planted of such vniversally & so still continuing as are indeed abhominable and disobedient , & to every good work reprobate . The second Scripture is Act. 10. 34. 35. Of a truth I perceave that God is no accepter of persons , but in every nation he that feareth him and worketh righteousnes is accepted of him . And is it so ? What sacrilegious presumption then is it in the Church of Enland to compell God to accept of persons , and to accept for his people & servants such as neither fear him , nor work righteousnes but the cōtrary ? to offer vp theyr persons & sacrifices to him in the name of Christ in whome they have no portion ? to seale vp the covenant of his grace and peace vnto them in the sacraments with whom it never came into his hart to strike hand , neyther hath he peace with them ? The third Scripture is Rom. 14. 17. 18. The kingdome of God is not meat , not drink , but righteousnes , and peace and ioy in the Holy G. for whosoever in those things serveth Christ is acceptable to God , &c. Hence ( to let passe the drift of the Apostle in this place els where opened ) thus much must necessarily follow , that where righteousnes , and peace , and ioy in the Holy Ghost are not , nor men in those things serving Christ , there the kingdome of God is not , nor these men his subiects . And where Gods kingdom is not , there is the kingdome of Satan , and they that are not the subiects of the one , are the slaves of the other . And so I leave it to the godly reader to iudge whither the assemblyes in England gathered at the first , and at this day consisting of such persons for the most part as do not thus nor in these things viz : righteousnes peace and ioy in the Holy Ghost serue Christ , but the contrary , can be rightly & by the word of God accounted the kingdome of God & Church of Christ. Thus the 3. Scriptures which Mr B. stretched out like a threfold coard to hold men in the assemblies , are in truth and in their right meaning as a three stringed whip to scourge those that fear God out of them . With such a renunciation of the truth must be interteyned much vntruth ( saith Mr Ber. ) as first thou must beleeve their way to be the truth of God , then condemne our Church as a false Church : when themselves have published that the differences betwixt vs and them are but corruptions . N●w corruptions , do not make a false Church but a corrupt Church , a● corruptions in a man make but a corrupt , but no false man. If we beare witnes of our selves our witnes is not true , but if the word of God beare witnes with vs , and against you , it must stand . And for the advauntage which you suppose you have gayned at vs , where we acknowledge our differences to be onely your corruptions , it will nothing at all enrich you , or better your Church : For there are corruptions essentiall , and in the very causes constitutive , matter , & forme aswell as els where : there are corruptions which eat out the very heart of a thing , as well as such as hinder the working onely , or steyn the work . And we may truely say of all the abhominable doctrines and devises in Rome , that they are but so many corruptions of those pure truthes , & holy ordinances which that Church at the first received from Christ the Lord. And for your similitude of a man , whom you say corruptions make not a false man , but a corrupt man , you are deceived in it , whether you consider a man naturally or morally . Naturally , what is death but the corruption of the man ? as generatio & corruptio are opposed . And what is rottennes but the corruption of the body ? Now these do more then make a corrupt man , or corrupt body , they do destroy the very being . But consider a man morally ( as in the case of religion he must be considered ) & then morall corruptions & vices do eyther make a false man , or els a traytor , a theif , a cousener is a true man , which patronage I hope Mr B. will not vndertake . The second rank of reasons which Mr B. brings against us are certayne greivous sinns wherewith ( he sayth ) all in our way are polluted , for which according to our own principle no man may ioyn himselfe vnto vs. The sins he nameth are , a renunciation of Gods mercy , and of all good things , and men with them , vnthankfulnes to God , and the Church , spirituall vncharitablenes , audacious censuring , a desire to hinder , yea to extinguish all the spirituall good they publiquely enioy , and a wish of destruction vnto the people , and the like . Greivous accusations certaynly , but if to accuse be to convince who shal be innocent ? not the Lord Iesus himselfe , nor his holy Apostles : whose examples in vndergoing the like reproches , and in patient bearing of the same at the hands of wicked men , if we had not before our eyes , eyther our harts would break in vs for sorrow , or we should be provoked to render reproach for reproach , & so sin against God. Our first supposed sin is that wofull entrance before named , for which I refer the reader to that which hath been before answered . But they in England ( sayth Mr B. ) enter by baptisme renouncing the Divill and sin . So do the Papists as loud as they , and with as many godfathers and godmothers , crossing and blessing themselves against the Divill , and all his works as much as they do . And for the renunciation of Gods mercy and all good men , and good things in them in the Church of England : because we refuse communion there , it is a foule charge layd vpon vs , but to which we are no more lyable , then were the Levites when they forsook Ieroboams Church and repayred to Ierusalem † the place which the Lord had chosen . For in Israell which they forsook were to be found both good persons and things . 1 King. 14. 13. and 19. 18. Now where in the last place Mr B. chargeth vs not to make vnclean what God hath cleansed Act. 10. 1● . we on the contrary advise him not to account that clean , which sinn and Antichrist doth defyle . Let him or any other man on earth shew vnto vs by the word of God that a Church gathered and consisting of persons for the most part defyled with all manner of impiety , is clensed by God , or that the dayly sacrifice the service book is as a lamb without spot , or that the spirituall courts so miscalled , are sanctified of God for the government of his kingdome on earth , or that the Court keepers the Archflamins and Flamins the Provinciall and Diocesan Bishops with theyr Chauncelers Commissaryes Archdeacons and other officers are his holy ones vpon whome he hath put his Vrim and Thummim , and then let vs beare our rebuke if we do not returne to the Church of England and humble ourselves vnder her hand , as Hagar did her selfe vnder the hand of her mistresse , Gen. 16. 9. The second sinn wherewith Mr B. chargeth vs is our great vnthankfulnes , 1. to God that begat vs by his word , eyther by denying our conversion ●r els accounting it a false conversion , 2. towards the Church of England our mother whom we desire to make a whore before Christ her husband , condemn ●●r &c. And this accusation he shutteth vp with most bitter execrations against vs as vnworthy to breath in the ayre . For the thankfulnes of our harts vnto the Lord our God for his vnspeakeable mercies we leave it vnto him that knowes the hart , and for the manifestation of it vnto men , we referr them to our entyre ( though weak ) obedience to the whol revealed wil of God , and ordinances of Christ Iesus , which we take to be the most acceptable sacrifice of thankfulnes which by man can be offered to the Lord. And for our personall conversion in the Church of England we deny it not but do ( and alwayes have so done ) iudge and professe it true there : and so was Luthers conversion true in the Church of Rome , els could not his separation from Rome have been of faith or accepted of God. The same may be sayd of all the persons and Churches in the world which have forsaken Rome . Our third imagined , sinn is spirituall vncharitablenes appearing in our deep censures vpon all at least not inclinable vnto vs , condemning such as know not our way as blinded by the God of this world the Divell : such as se● it , & yeeld not vnto it , as worldlings , fearefull , convinced in conscience , & going on in presumptuous sin : such as forsake it having formerly enclyned vnto it , Apostates , and if they oppose it , godles persequuters , hunters after soules , such as shall certainly grow worse & worse , so as men shall say , God is revenged on them , &c. If any one man have thus peremptorily defined eyther in word or writing , as Mr B. witnesseth , it was that one mans fault , and is not to be imputed to the rest of vs , more then Mr B. most malicious & hateful accusatiōs in this book to all the Ministers , & people in the Church of Engl. wherof I doubt not but thowsāds are ashamed , and to which they would be more vnwilling to subscribe , then he to the Bishops canons . I for mine own part onely exhort all men in all places , as they look to be approved at that day when the secrets of all hearts shal be disclosed , that they deale faithfully in the Lords busines , & take heed they neyther forbeare through partiall praejudice , or fleshly feare to inquire after the truth nor with hould it in vnrighteousnes , if they have found it , especially that they oppose it not , eyther in hatred or contempt of the persons professing it , or in flattery of the Prelates and others of their trayne , whom most directly it impugneth . And for the rest whose harts ar vpright before the Lord , myne harty prayer is that according to theyr integrity their comforts may be , & that together with my self they may find mercy with the Lord for all those ignorances , & infirmityes wherewith the sonns of men ar cōpassed about in the dayes of their flesh . And for you Mr B. where you take God to witnesse , and the Lord to iudge , that you do not oppose vs of hatred or mallice , nor of purpose to vex vs , or to encrease our afflictions knowing as you doe the terrours of the iudgments of the Lord , I would seriously advise you , considering what you have spoken and threatened vpon some personall provocations , to take heed you be not to bould with such deep protestations as these are nor please your selfe too much in them , because you fynd them sometimes profitable to serve your turne vpon simple people . The second poynt of our vncharitablenes spirituall Mr B. makes , a most vngodly desire ( as ever was heard of ) to have the word vtterly extintinguished amongst them , & Egiptian darknes to come over them , rather then it should be preached by such as do not favour our course . And therevpon he inters into a large commendation of preaching the gospell , as though we eyther despised or vndervalued it : and on the other syde into a most base extenuation of the constitution of the Church and of orderly proceeding in preaching , as things little or nothing regarded by the Prophets , Apostles , and other holy men of God. For this man thus to accuse vs as if we desired that the light of the gospel might be put out in the land , and that darknes might cover all , is a most vngodly & impious slaunder ( as ever was heard of ) and in truth one drop of that gall of bitternes which the Christian reader he confesseth in the preface is like to find in his book . We are glad and do reioyce for every spark of knowledge kindled in the heart of any person in the land , beseeching him which is both the authour & finisher of all grace , that the same may break out into a perfect flame . But because we are taught , that the least evill may not be practised for the greatest good : Rom. 3. 8. nor aly told for God. Iob. 13. 9. ( who needs not mans sin for the accomplishment of his righteousnes ) we advise all men to take heed how they adventure to tread the maze of their owne good meanings without warrant of Gods word , or to do that which is good in it self without a lawful calling vnto it , pleasing thēselves in the vncertain events of things , which are onely in the hands of God : and rather to turn their feet from every evil way into the steppes of righteousnes commending by faith the issues , and events of things vnto the Lord , whom alone they concerne , and rather to chuse neyther to buy nor sell , then to receive the character or mark of the beast , or the number of his name , Rev. 13. 17. knowing that he which worshippeth the beast and his image , and receaves his character in his forhead or in his hād , shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God , of the pure wine powred into the cup of his wrath , and shal be tormented with fyre and brimstone in the sight of the holy Angels , and before the presence of the Lambe . Rev. 4. 9. 10. And for the concluding of this point , I would onely demaund of Mr B. whether those godly ministers whom he brings in pag. 130 to bear down all before them , be not of that company which rather chuse to be silenced by the Prelates , yea & so perswade others also , then to submit to their ceremonies , & subscription . I think he wil not deny it , if he be asked the question . And do these godly Ministers there , or other in Engl. mynded as I speak desier that the word may vtterly be extinguished in the land , & that Egyptian darknes may come over all ? Indeed the Prelates so charge them as the cause of all Papisme , and Atheisme in the land ; but Mr B. ( I know ) iudgeth otherwise of them : and so would he do of vs , if the beame of mallice did not blynd his right ey , when he looked towards vs. Now for the preaching of the word and gospell of salvation , as Mr B. doth but worthily and according to the excellency of it , magnify and advance the same , so doth he most iniuriously , and deceiptfully oppose it vnto the holy order within which the Lord hath rainged it , and to the true constitution of the Church and other the ordinances thereof , with which it consorteth necessarily by the Lords appoyntment , and so they make together a most heavenly harmony . And thus to set the ordinances of Christ at iarre amongst themselves , and in the commendation of one principall to bury the rest as vile , and vnnecessary , is a most effectuall delusion , and deep deceipt , by which the mistery of iniquity is much advantaged in the false assemblyes , and the hearts of the simple fast held in the snares of error , and impiety . The Bishops & those of their sect do in their sermons & writings extoll prayer . But to what end ? That they may depresse preaching , and oppresse preachers , and so establish theyr service-saying Preists in the Ministery . Mr. B. here , and so the forward sorte commonly will magnify preaching : but as he here , so they oft tymes with an evill ey to the right gathering , lawfull goverment , and orderly administration of the holy things of & in the church . Wel , the Lord sees this haulting on both sydes & will avenge the quarrell of his very meanest ordināce , & † least cōmandement vpō all these deceiptful workers . Who is wise that he may vnderstād these things , & prudent that he may take knowledge of them ? for the wayes of Iehovah are righteous , and the iust shall walk in them , but the rebells shall fall in them . And for the preaching of the gospel would Mr B. but turne his eye a litle upon himself , and his nationall Church , he might finde that every text brought by him for the advancement of preaching ▪ is as a sworn evidēce both against himself , & the Church for which he pleads . The more needfull vision is , for which he quotes in the first place Prov. 29. 18. where vision is not , the people perisheth , or is made naked , the more desperate is the estate of the Church of England wherein the greatest part of the Parishes by far have dark midnight for vision : the more vnlawfull and vngodly is the ministery of that Church , to which preaching is but an accident , and no way essentiall or necessary ; the more accursed is the Prelacy of the same Church which for indifferent things and so not necessary ( as themselves acknowledg ) blynde the eyes and stop the mouthes of the best seers , and paynefullest preachers in all places . And if the order which Christ hath left in his Church be so vyle in Mr B. eyes in comparison of his vnorderly preaching , what can he say for his Lords the Bishops which for the orders devised by themselves & by their forefathers of Rome thrust out of so many Churches the ordinance of preaching ? A man would think Mr B. zeal should find room enough at home and in his owne Church , and not thus pursue beyond the ●●as a poore company of despised , and dispersed people . But to the very poynt which Mr B. drives at . There is not one scripture alledged by him which iustifyes the preaching of the gospell out of a true ( much lesse in a false ) constitution . They do all and every one of them necessarily presuppose the same , howsoever he would separate the things which God hath ioyned together . Take one for example and that such a one , as he makes a pillar in his building . It is written and so by him alledged , Psa. 147. 19. 20. He shewed his word vnto Iacob , his statutes and his iudgments vnto Israell : He hath not so dealt with every nation , &c. Here ( sayth Mr B. ) the Lord preferrs his word before a constitution , as a testimony of his speciall love . But vntruly . For in this very place the Lord prefers a constitution before his word , statutes , and iudgments as the cause why he gave them . For wherefore did the Lord shew his word vnto Iaakob , his statutes & iudgments vnto Israel , but because of their constitution ? that is , because Israel was the Lords peculiar people separated from all other nations , and received by the Lord into covenant , as no other nation was . Lev. 26. ●4 . 14. Exod. 19. 5. 6. Deut. 19. 10. 11. 12. &c. with Rō ▪ 3. 2. & 9. 4. Act. 2. 39. & 3. 23. how profanely soever this man doth debase and vilify the true constitution of the Church which he is like never to enioy , as Esau did the by●thright , wherewith the Lord never meant to honour him . Gen. 2● . 32. 33. And amongst other debasements of the constitution of the Church he affirmeth pag : 55. that though an orderly proceeding ought to be had , yet that at no hand for want therof preaching ought to be left of , & to this end pag. 53. and 54. he violently haleth into the same guilt with himselfe the brethren of the dispersion Act. 8. 1. 4. 12. whom he chargeth in preaching the word , not to have stood vp●n every speciall poynt in entering so orderly vnto the work . But as theyr enterance was most orderly for that being of a true constituted Church at Ierusalem & dispersed by persequution , they published the gospel in every place where they came , as any member of the Church may do , ( as grace is ministred , and occasion offered ) , so is it on the otherside a Babylonish presumption for any man vnder any praetence whatsoever , to enterprise the preaching of the gospell or any other work disorderly . The Apostle ( speaking especially of prophecying ) expresly commaunds , that all things be done according to order : how then dare any petty Pope , or proctor of Babylon dispence with or plead for disorder in this or any other ministration in the Church ? The last and highest degree of our vncharitablenes he reckons this that we are sorry and envious that the good things of God do prosper with them , & that the more religious men be in their way the more are we greived , and to this end he pretends Mr Barrowes abusing and scoffing at the graces of God , and holy exercises in such persons . As we hold our selves bound to acknowledge all good things in all men and to honour them accordingly , 1 Pet. 2. 17. So must I here demaund of Mr B. as another hath done before me , what those good things are which so prosper ; Onely the Prelates prosper in the kingdome who with theyr ceremonious hornes & canons beat & batter down all that stands in their way . Of their prosperity against the truth we are sory , but not envious , being taught not to envy the works of iniquity , considering what suddayn , and certayne desolation shall fall vpon them . Psal. 37. 9. 10. And ( by the way ) where Mr B. takes it for graunted , that the reformists are the most religious in the way of the Church of England it is cleane otherwise . The most absolute Formalists , & most strict vrgers of conformity are the most religious in the way of the Church of England : And as for the reformists theyr zeale ( to speak as the truth is , and as shall hereafter more fully be manifested ) is not in , nor for the way of the Church of England but a by path from it , which the Church of England ( considered in the formall constitution of it ) accounteth schism , and rebellion : but rather the same way in effect which we walk , if they were true to theyr own grounds , and durst practise what they have professed in theyr supplications , and admonitions to the Prince , and Parliament , & other their vnder hand passages , wherein they do playnly condemn the Prelacy for Antichristian , the service book as superstitious , the mixture of all sortes of people as confused , and so of the rest . And this Mr B. iustifyeth the obiections which you would so gladly prevent pag. 57. made by your brethrē in the faith ( for so are the worst of them ) the prophane and secure worldlings , and Athiests , that men paynfull and conscionable in their Ministery and lives , do breed and further ( as you speak ) Brownistes and Brownisme . For proof hereof I will here insert a few things written & published both in former and latter tymes by such men , as I dare say Mr B. reckens amongst the painefull & conscionable Ministers . Their words are these . We have an Antichristian & Popish ordering of Ministers , strange frō the word of God never heard of in the primitive Church but taken out of the Popes shop to the destruction of Gods kingdome . 2. Adm. to the Parl. The names and offices of Archbishops , Archdeacons Lordbishops &c. are together with their goverment drawen out of the Popes shop Antichristian , divelish , and contrary to the scriptures . Parsons , Uicars Parish Preists , Stipendaryes &c. be byrds of the same fether . 2. Admo . to the Parliament . The callings of Archbishops , Bishops , with all such be ra●●er members and parts of the whore and strumpet of Rome , then of the pure Uirgin and spouse of the immaculate Lamb. Mr Ch. Serm. vpon Rom. 12. The calling of Bishops and Archbishops do onely belong vnto the Kingdome of Antichrist . Discovery of D. Ban. slaunders . pag. ●0 . Our Diocesan and Provinciall Churches vsing Diocesan and Provinciall goverment and officers are contrary to Gods word and simply vnlawfull . Mr Iakob for reformation : Ass : 1. There is no true visible Church of Christ but a particular congregation onely . Christian Offer . Prop. 4. Every true visible Church of Christ or ordinary assembly of the faithfull hath by Christs ordinance power in it selfe imediately vnder Christ to elect , to ordayne , deprive , and depose theyr Ministers and to exequute all other Ecclesiasticall Censures . Ibid : Prop : 5. The visible Church of Christ wheresoever it be hath the power of bynding and loosing annexed vnto it as our saviour Christ teacheth Math. 18. Discovery of D. Ban. slaunders . Preface . We must needs say as followeth , that this book ( viz the Communion book ) is an vnperfect book culled and picked out of that Popish dunghill the masse book full of al abhominations . Adm : to Parl. Treat : 2. Amongst vs the holy sacraments are communicated with the Papists , the holy misteryes of God prophaned , the Gentiles enter into the temple of God , the holy things are indifferently communicated with the clean and vncleane , circumcised and vncircumcised . A plaine declaration of ecclesiasticall discipline . pag. 172. Now let the indifferent reader iudge whether these sayings with many moe of the like kinde do not most necessarily conclude , yea & naturally beget a separation frō the goverment , Ministery , worship and communion of the Church of England : and whether these men in thus wryting have not opened the dore vnto vs , by which themselves enter not . To the further charge of vncharitablenes layd against vs , as being glad when they contend amongst themselves never praying for the peace & welfare of the ministery &c. I do answere , that we reioyce for all peace in truth amongst all men but for peace in iniquity , which is a wicked conspiracy , and fearful judgment of God we reioyce not , we pray not . Let Mr B. aske the godly Ministers with whose supply he backs his book , whither they reioice in his & other mens peaceable subscription & conformity ? or whither they could not rather have wished they had contended against the same ? yea let me ask Mr B. himselfe whither he reioyce in the peace of the representative Church of England the Convocation house , and in theyr vnanimous consent in framing and imposing their canons and constitutions ? or whither he would not rather clap his wings and craw for ioy , if the two Archprelates with the rest of theyr horned Clergy there , would oppose and crosse one another ? And let me ask him yet further for the wellfare of which order of Ministery he would have vs pray ? or whither he himselfe pray for the welfare of the Bishops ( except it be sometymes before theyr faces . ) And for vs to pray for the inferiour Ministery and not for the prelacy is to dally with God , and to blesse the branch , and not the root . And in alledging ( as you do ) Act. 11. 20. 21. 22. 23. 24. to prove that holy men have reioyced for the people receaving of the gospel and not at theyr standing in a constitution , you do injuriously separate things to be conioyned . For the same persons that received the gospell ioyned themselves in a constitution , or constituted Church as appeareth ver . 26. And it is expresly sayd , Act. 2. 41. that they that receaved the word were added to the Church , and being baptised they must needs be of a Church for baptism is not without , but within the Church and an ordinance given unto it . And how profanely bould soever you ( Mr B. ) are to blaspheme the tabernacle of God which he hath pitcht amongst men , or visible Church framed according to the pattern given by a greater then Moses , yet is it good for vs to consider what the H. Ghost noteth , in the last verse of the forenamed Chap. that the Lord added to the Church from day to day such as should be saved . Neyther can you possibly produce one example or other proof in the scriptures of one man teaching the gospell but he was a member of a true Church , nor receiving it but he ioyned vnto one . And for the man that cast out Divels in Christs name but followed him not , Mark. 9. 39. he can no way help you for what purpose soever you alledge him . For first he was a member of a true constituted Church the the Church of the Iewes , which was yet vndissolved . 2. he had no office but a gift . 3. his gift and calling to vse it , was extraordinary and miraculous . Now for our love towards you , wherein you blame vs as defective , it is the same in generall which we beare towards all men , and more speciall according to the speciall bonds betwixt vs and you , and towards many very great both for the many good things we know to be in them , and vnder the hope also of their further progresse . And for our prayers , as it is true that wee cannot pray for you as visible members of Gods Church , for God never gathered Church of the visible and apparent members of the Divel as the greatest part of yours were & are : so is it vnjustly infinuated against us that wee pray no otherwise for you thē for Papists Atheists and the like . We pray for the perfecting of Gods work in you , and that as we think many of you his people in Babylon , so you may come out of her . Our next brand of vncharitablenes is our accustomary excommunications even for light offences in some , albeit others obstinate can be let passe . And to prove this he quotes Mr George Iohnson , & Mr White , the former an excommunicate himself , whom Mr B. also pag. 35. of his book calls a disgraceful libeller ; the other an vngodly apostate , whose accusations have been answered one by one . A fit evidence for such a plea and plaintife . But if Mr B. ( knowing the fashions of the Church of England ) had but once remembred the saying of the Lord Iesus , Mat. 7. 3. 4. 5. he would never have accused other Ch : of vncharitable and rash excommunications , which if they be a mote in the Church of Amsterdam are a beam in the Church of England , wherein there is more daunger of excommunication to them that feare God then to any other flagitious persons whomsoever . Indeed no man can challendge Mr B. & his Church of Worxsop for any such heady and rash excommunications , they are very moderate this way , and can beare in communion with them any graceles person whomsoever til his dying day , and then commit ful charitably the body of their deceased brother to the grave , with a devout prayer for his joyfull resurrection : so charitable are they both to the living and the dead . But the thing which most grieves Mr B , and at which he hath greatest indignation Pag. 62. is , that we will not heare his sermons though he preach nothing but the true word of God. And so he desires to heare of vs , where the hearing of the true word of God onely preached is sinn and for bidden by Christ , or the Prophets or Apostles . For answer hereof I would know first whether Mr B. speaking here and in many other places of the true word of God do meane , that God hath a true word and a false word or rather bewray not an accusing conscience , that they in England have not the word truely taught , that is in a true office of Ministery ? Now for the demaund ( referring the reader for more full satisfaction , to that which hath bene published at large by others ) I do answer , that as it was vnlawfull to † communicate with Corah or with Vzziah though they burnt true incense , or with Ieroboams Preists though they offered true sacrifices , so is it vnlawfull to communicate with a devised ministery , what truth soever is taught in it . Secondly the Lord hath promised no blessing to his word but in his own ordinance , though by his superaboundant mercy he oft tymes vouchsafe that which no man can chalendg by any ordinary promise . Thirdly * no man may partake in other mens sinns , but every Ministery eyther devised or vsurped is the sinn of him which exerciseth it . And as no good subiect would assist or cōmunicate with any person in the administration of civil iustice to the Kings subiects ( no not though h● administred the same never so equally and indifferrently ) except the same person had commission from the King so to do : so neyther ought the subiects of the kingdome of Christ to partake with any person whomsoever in the dispensation of any spirituall thing ( though in it self never so holy ) without sufficient warrant and commission from the most absolute and sovereigne King of his Church Christ Iesus . And where Mr B. speaks of hearing the true word of God onely preached , he intimates therin , that if we would heare him preach it would satisfy him wel , and so teacheth vs with himselfe and others to make a schisme in the Church in vsing one ordinance and not another . It is all one whether a man communicate with the Minister in his pulpit or with the Chauncelor in his consistory , both of them minister by the same power of the Bishop . The Chauncelor may iudge iustly , & who knowes whither or no the Minister will teach truely ? And if he do not , but speak the vision of his owne heart , what remedy hath the Church or what can they that hear him do ? May they † rebuke him openly according to his sin , and so bring him to repentance ? or must they not beare his errors yea his heresyes also during the pleasure of the Bishops , even their Lord , & his ? And would you Mr B. be content your people should heare a masse Preist or Iesuite , though he professed as loud as you do , that he would teach the true word of God ? And think not scorne of the match , for you have the selfe same office with a masse Preist though refyned . If he be ordayned by a Bishop ( though it be the Bishop of Rome ) he may minister in any Church of England by vertue of that ordination . And besides masse Preists preach some and those the mayne truthes , and the Ministers in England neither do nor da●e preach all , no nor some which ( it may be ) the others do . Is it not better then for the servāts of the L. Iesus to exercise & aedify themselves according to the model of grace receaved , though in weaker measure , then to be so simple as to come to your feasts , though you cry never so loud vnto them , thinking that because your stoln waters are sweet , and your hidden bread pleasant , that they have no power to passe by , but must needs become your guests ? Lastly Mr B. even to make vp the measure of his mallice , as he formerly reproached vs by the oppositiōs , & dissentiōs which he hath heard of amongst vs , so doth he here by the vnity and love which himselfe hath seen in vs , comparing it page 64. to the love of Familists , and Papists , and other wretched and graceles companions . So that belike whither we love or hate , whither we agree or disagree , this man wil be sure to fynd matter of reproch vnto vs , and of stumbling to himselfe , as the Iewes did both from Iohns austerity , and from Christs more sociable course of life , Math. 11. 18. 19. Our fourth sin is abusing the word , of which all are guilty by misalledging and wresting places of Scripture &c , and this Mr B. proves because some have accused some of the principall of vs with it . If accusation be conviction Mr B. needs not speak of some or any other , he himselfe hath most mightily cōvinced vs , for he hath most hatefully accused vs of any man a live . The fifth sin ( supposed ) is our wilfull persisting in our schism , lightly regarding reverend mens labours and sinfully despising weaker meanes , &c. It is well knowne that Mr B. how earnestly soever he pleads with vs for the contrary , doth himselfe as much neglect ( save for his owne purposes ) the iudgment of other men , as any other : neyther is there one minister in the land ( I am verily perswaded ) with whō he suiteth , but a right Ismael is he lesse or more , having his hand against every man and every mans against him . Well I deny our separation to be schism , ( as we take the word ) much lesse do we persist wilfully in it . And for the iudgment of other men , as we despise not the meanest , so neyther do we pin our faith vpon the sleeves of the most learned . The other exceptions of shifting and evading the scriptures , & of perversnes of spirit in conference , I pretermit as being both frivolous & despitefull , onely something must be answered before we passe this poynt , to the charge layd vpon vs , Pag 98. touching , corruptions in the Churches Apostolicall , and reformed . And first , obiect to them ( sayth he ) the corruptions of the Churches Apostolicall , and theyr answer is eyther that we mayntayn our corruptiōs by the sinnes of other Churches , or els they were in a true constitution . And how can you with modesty reiect this answer ? you say we misconstrue your intendement , which is that corruption make not a false Church . We grant it except they be essentiall : but this is that we say that what Church soever alledgeth the corruptions of other Churches with a purpose to cōtinue in the like thēselves ( which is your estate ) that Church maintaynes her corruptions by the sinns of other Churches . And for the second poynt I do affirme that merely by vertue of a constitution there may be a true Church of God though abounding ( for the present ) in sinne and iniquity , & yet another assembly not rightly constituted or gathered into covenant with God , no true Church though lesse impieties be to be found in it . The Prophet Ieremy complaines † that the iniquity of the daughter of his people ( namely Ierusalem ) was become greater then the sinn of Sodom , and the Prophet Ezeki●l affirmes that * Ierusalem was more corrupt by half then Sodom and Samaria . And yet was Ierusalem the true Church of God , which neyther Samaria nor Sodom were , no nor yet any other place in the world , where not halfe the wickednes was wrought that was to be found in the better of them . This poynt I will further examplify by a symilitude . A woman free and separated from all other men and ioyned in civill covenant to a man , is his wyfe , yea though shee prove very stubborn and disobedient , yea and dishonest also , till the bill of divorcement be given her ; but an other woman the wife of an other man , or not contracted to that man , is not his wife , nor can be so reputed , though she be never so obedient & buxome vnto him : so the Church of England til it be separated & free frō the world & prince of the world that rei●●e●h in it , & so frō Antichrist his Eldest sonne in his hye●archy priesthood & other ordinances , & be taken into covenant with the Lord cānot possibly be the true Ch : of God or wife of Christ : no not though the good things in it were many more then they are . Which we do not alledg , as is craftily insinuated against vs , to iustify any mans continuance in a Church full of wickednes , but to prove that the constitution of the Church that is the collection and combination of Saynts as matter in and into covenant with God as the form , is that which gives true being vnto a Church and nothing els , how vily soever men iudge or speak of it . And for corruptions in the Apostolical Churches it is true the Apostles mentioned them , but allwayes with vtter dislike , severe reproof , and streight charge of reforming them . Rom. 16. 17. 1 Cor. 5. 1. 6. 7. 11 — 13. 1 Thes. 5. 14. 2 Thes. 3. 6. 1 Tim. 6. 5. Rev. 2. 14 — 16. 20. But how do these things concern you ? Though Paul , and all the Apostles of Christ with him , yea though Christ himself from heaven should admonish any of your Churches to put away from among themselves any person though never so haeretical or flagitious , you could not do it , neither could you reform any abhomination otherwhere , though the same be as conspicuous as the * leprosy of Vzziah which brake forth in his forehead . And this want of the power of the Lord Iesus for reformation , which an other man would think were an intollerable slavery Mr B. pag 68. turnes to good advantage , and thinks himself & his Church halfe excused of all the evils which are amongst them , because they want power to vse the remedy : thus pleading for a priveledg the mark of the beast , frō which the servants of God ought to abhor , herin being passing witty above other men in making an advantage of that evill , which the most have enough to do to excuse . And for true Churches not vsing aright the power they have for reformation , they are like true bodyes which through some obstructions , or stoppings for a time cannot voyd things noxious , & hurtful till there be a remedy : but the Church without this power is as a monstrous body wanting the faculties & instruments of evacuation and expulsion of excrements , or other noy some things ▪ and therefore is never appointed of God to live , but devoted to death and destruction ? Of the reformed Churches & our cariage towards them I have spoken els where , and for your Turkish Argument in the margent wherein you incense the Magistrate against vs , as otherwise incorrigible , it well becomes the rest of your book joyning violence to slaunder . But are you your self wholly conformable Mr B ? If not , why do you incense the magistrate against vs being your selfe obnoxious to his displeasure ? Or do you not hope to escape persecution your self by persecuting vs ? This is too ordinary a practise amongst you . But the Lord seeth your haulting , and rewardeth you in your bosomes , as you have served vs. And when you and others more forward then you do consider & feel in what hatred you are with the King and state , me thinks your harts should smite you , as the harts of Iosephs brethren did them in their trouble for their barbarous crueltie towards him . Gen. 42. Our sixt sin by retayl Mr B. makes our rayling and scoffing , and in particular H. Barrowes blasphemyes , &c. whose repentance he would have vs publish to the world If I should answerably require of you the publication of the repentance of your Clergy not onely for the cruel speakings , but even for the wicked deeds , which vngodlily they have committed against Christ in his servants , and ordinances , it were an hard tax put vpon you . Yea to spare you for other men , do you but publish your owne repentance for the same ●innes ( wherein you are deeply set ) and without doubt your godly example shall provoke many to the like . And for Mr Barrow , as I say with Mr Ainsworth , that I wil not iustify all the words of an other man no● yet myne owne , so say I also with Mr Smyth , that because I know not by what particular motion of the spirit he was guided to write in those phr●ses , I dare not censure him as you do : especially considering with what fyery zeale the Lord hath furnished such his servants at all tymes , as he hath stirred vp for speciall reformation . Let the example of Luther alone suffice , whom into what termes his zeale carryed , his writings testify . And yet both in him , and in Mr Barrow there might be with true spirituall zeal ●leshly indignation mingled . And though this in generall might be sufficient , yet for the stopping of your mouth Mr B. and for the satisfying of others , I will discend a little to the very particulars , which you have c●lled out against Mr Barrow as most odious . First then you fault him that he calles your Bishops Antichristian prowd Prelates , and the tayl of the beast , &c. And what are they but Antichristian , if their office be against Christ , and his ordinances in the visible Church ? And what els do all the reformed Churches abroad and reformists at home iudge , speak , & write of them ? And what thought you Mr B. otherwise of them , when even since you dealt against this cause of separatiō , you affirmed before many witnesses that there was not a place in the new testamēt against Antichrist , but you could apply it against thē ? And because you are come to this height of boldnes & depth of dissembling , I will here insert brei●ly certayne reasons which I receaved from your self in wryting to prove the Bishops Antichristian , and that word for word as I have reserved them by me to this day . 1. The fruits of the Hierarchy are contrary to Christ. 2. It forbids many good meanes of religion as prophesying &c. 3. It keeps in and nourisheth offenders against paynfull labourers . 4. It excommunicates the godly , yea for a word , and that ips● facto . 5. It is lordly and tyr●●mous contrary to 1 Pet. 5. 1. 2. 3. Luk. ●2 . 25. 6. It rules by Popish lawes and by the power of man which ar● carnall weapons . 7. It remits the offenders for m●ny , though ●e repent not . 8. It establisheth an vniversall Bishop as well as a Diosesan , or Provinciall Bishop . And as I remember at the same tyme you brought forth D. Downame in his first book proving the Pope Antichrist , ch . 4. affirming , that the Hierarch in the Romish Church was Antichristian , whereof I am sure the the Bishops office is a part . These reasons I thought good to set downe not because they are all , or some of them of the best , that can be brought , but because they are yours , which notwithstanding I am perswaded neyther you nor any other can satisfie . And if Mr B. himselfe thus wryte and speak in private , why blames he vs for our publique testimony ? Now if the Bishops be Antichristian and so the spirit of Divils Rev. 16. 14. why might not Mr Barrow affirm theyr Ministery and ministration to be of and by the Divill ? and what are they but eyther the tayl , or some other lim of the beast ? And for theyr excommunications by name , it is evident by this they are not of God , for that the most religious in the kingdome make least account of them . For theyr Luciferian pryde whereof Mr Barrow accuseth them it is apparant they burden the earth , & threaten the heavens with it ▪ for their hateful Symony both in giving , and receiving , they are so notorious , as the best service Mr B. can do them in this case is , to turn mens thoughts from those evils which every ey sees , & every heart abhorrs . Towching the Ghost the Bishop gives in his blasphomous imitation of Christ , Ioh. 20. 22. ( except contrary to the rule in nature , nihil d●● quod non habet , he can give that he hath not ) it is not very likely he should give the Holy Ghost ▪ why then might not Mr Barrow call it an vnholy Ghost . And for the Bible in the Bishops hands which he gives his Preists in ordination , Mr Barrow calls it the libell not in contempt of the book , but in reproof of the ceremony , & that iustly since the Lord never appointed the scriptures for any such vse , nor any such ceremony in the ordination of his Ministers . Christ , and the Apostles would have such Ministers ordeyned as have the Bibles in their hearts : the Bishops of England to supply this want give it into the hands of their Preists which they think sufficient , though in truth the most of them are more vsed to handle a paire of cardes vpon an alebench , then the holy bible . Your Patrons Mr Barrow calles great Baals , & Lord Patrons ; and iustly in respect of that Lordly power they vse in obtruding their Clerks vpon the Parish assemblies : your ministers yea all and every one of them Preists , which is their proper name given them both in your book of ordination , and cōmon prayer : your Deacons half-preists according to the nature of their office , betwixt which & the Deacons office in the new testament , Act. 6. 1. 2. 3. 4. there is no consimilitude . For the other more harsh termes wherewith he enterteynes such persons and things in the Church as carry with them most appearance of holynes , they are to be interpreted according to his meaning , and a distinction vsed by Mr B. in † another place is here to be applyed . Which is that Mr Barrow speaks not of these persons , and things simply , but in a respect , & so , & so considered , & so no one terme given by Mr Barrow to my knowledg , but may ( at the least ) be tolerated . The Ministers ( as they receive the wages of vnrighteousnes , o● counsayl to spiritual fornication ) are B●l●●mites ; in respect of th●ir office vowed to destruction , Cananites ; as they plead for confusion Babylonish divines : as they endeavour to stay Gods people in Egypt ▪ spiritually so called ) Egyptian inchaunters : as they are members of the Hierarchy 〈◊〉 of the Divel , by vertue whereof he bear great sway , as the * reformists amongst you have expresly testifyed . And for your very divine exercise● of prayer , preaching ▪ sacr●●●t● , & su●ging of psal●s howsoever they be good & holy in thēselves , or at leas● have much good in them , yet in respect of the vnhallowed cōmunion , forg●d minist●ry , and superstitious order wherein these , and all other things with you are ministred and exercised , they are lyable to the heaviest censure Mr Barrow hath put vpon them . And for the most forward preachers in the kingdom , considering their vnsound and broken courses in denying , that in deed and practise , which in w●rd and writing ▪ they prof●sse to be the reveal●d will o● God , and inviolable testament of Christ , binding his Church for ever , yea and practising the contrary in the face of the s●nne , commi●t●●g two evils , forsaking the Lord the fountayne of l●ving water to dig themselves broken pit●s which will hold no water , yea not onely refusing themselves to enter into the kingdome of God the Church , but also hindering them that would , & persecuting them that do , and lastly considering them in their vnconscionable defence for their own standings and practises , as that onely the godly in the parish are of the Church with them : that they hold and vse their ministery by the acceptation of the people , and not by the Bishops ; that they obey the Bishops in their citations , suspensions , excommunications and absolutions , a● they are civil magistrates , and ●he like , they do deserve a sharper medicine , then happily they are willing to endure . Yea the very personall graces of knowledge , zeale , p●●ience & the like manifested in many both ministers , and people , are most vniustly perverted , and misused to the obduration and hardening both of the persons themselves , & others in most deceivable wayes , wherein the deepest mistery of iniquity , and most effectuall delusion of Satan that can be , worketh , as is by Mr Barrow and others clearly discovered . But that Mr Barrow should say that the preaching of Gods word , & ●●e spirits effectuall working should make men the children of hell and two fold ●orse then b●fore is a great slaunder , and could not possibly enter into his or any other godly mans heart . And so I leave these and the like more vnsavoury-seeming speaches of M● Barrow to the wise and Christian readers charitable interpretation . The last rank of Mr B. reasons followeth which respect the matter ▪ of our sep●●●tion ( by him called schisme ) which how materiall they are shall appeare in their place . Our first errour according to his reckoning is . They hold that the constitution of our Church is a fals● constitution . And let vs see how strongly your answer forces vs from this our hold . 1. Arg. They cannot prove this simply by any playne doctrine of scripture , and that which they would prove is but onely respectively , and so may any thing , and their Church also be condemned . 2. Arg. It is against the evidence of the scriptures which maketh the word , externall profession , and sacraments the visible constitution , &c. That you then affirm in the first place is , that wee cannot prove this simply by any playne doctrine , wherein you do half confesse that wee do it by iust consequence , though not by playne doctrine , & wholly , that respectively , and so & so considered ( as you speak ) your cōstitution is false . And thus ( you say ) any thing may be condemned . But first it is not true that any thing may be condemned after this sort . The constitutiō of the Ch : Apostolike could in no cōsideration be condemned , neyther could ours ( to our knowledge ) being according to that pattern , how weakly soever we walk in it . Secondly , the constitution even of Rome ( as now it stands ) is not simply false , but onely in this & that respect . So far as it separates fro heathenish Idolatry , & Idolaters vnto the true God , & reteynes any truthes of God & remaynders of Christs testament , so far it is not false , or feyned , and yet is her present constitution false & she vncapable of the Lords covenant . To come nearer the matter . The constitution of the Church is the orderly collection and coniunction of the sayncts into & in the covenant of the new Testament : 〈◊〉 the saynts are the matter , the covenant the form , from which two concurring , the Church ariseth , and is by them constituted . Now for the word , it is an outward instrument preparing , and preserving the matter , but no more the constitution of the Church then the ax is the cōstitution or frame of the house : and for externall profession it manifests the fitnes of the matter for the form , and by it the saynts enter covenant ? which covenant also the sacraments confirm as s●ales annexed to that end . And where Mr B. affirmeth we cannot prove their Church cōstition false by any playn doctrine of scripture , we will consider the scriptures he himself alledgeth , and the doctrine of them which as so many touchstones do discover the counterfeyt constitution of the same . The word ( saith he ) is the constitution of the Church : His meaning is , or should be at the least , that the word is the ordinary outward meanes for the collecting , and constituting of the Church of God ▪ I graunt it . But how considered ? Not the word in mens bibles alone ▪ for then all the Haeretiques in the world are true Ch : nor yet the word preached simply , for * Paul preached the word to the scoffing Athenians , & † to the blasphemous Iewes , yet I think he will not say that eyther the one or the other were Churches truly constituted . How then ? the word published vnderstood , beleeved , and obeyed outwardly at the least , as the spirituall sword , or ax , hewing the stones in the rock , and trees in the forrest , and preparing them to be the Lords spirituall house . And thus much the very places produced by Mr B : ( like Golyahs sword drawn out to cut off his owne sword ) do evidently declare . Math. 28. 19. ( which is the first place ) , shewes that such as by preaching of the word were made disciples , for so much ‘ the word importeth , were to be gathered into the Church & baptised . Mar. 16. 15. shewes the same , especially if you adde vers . 16. inferring that men by preaching must beleeve , and so beleeve , as they have the promise of salvation , which I note the rather to shew the vanity of that verball profession in a profane conversation , which els where Mr B. makes so much of . The places 2 Cor. 5. 19. & 11. 2. cited by you do prove that the wor● of reconciliation and ministery of the gospell beleeved & obeyed to the forgivenes of sinns and to the preparation & sanctification of the Church to Christ is the means of gathering and building vp the same , to which that of Iob. 33. 23. 24. consorteth . The two places Act. 2. 14. 37. 38. 41. and 16. ●2 . 32. 34. are of the same 〈◊〉 with the former and do prov● that sundry of the Iewes at Ierusalem by Peters preaching and that the ●aylours houshol● at Philippi by Pauls preaching were brought to repentance , and faith in Christ , and so added to the Church . But what wil be the conclusion of all these premises ? The Proposition is this . The true Apostolick Churches having a true constitutiō were gathered & constituted of such men and women as by the preaching of the gospel were made disciples , had faith and repentance wrought in them to the obteyning of the forgivenes of sinns , & promise of life eternall and to sanctification and obedience . Now though my logick be not much better then yours Mr B. yet since my cause is , I will help you with an assumption or 2. Proposition . But the Church of England was not so gathered after Popery , but on the contrary without preaching of the gospel , & of men & women for the most part ignorant , faythles mispenitent disobediēt , to whō no promise of the forgivenes of sinns , & life eternal appert●ynes : whervpō the cōclusiō necessarily followeth , that the constitution of the Church of England is not true or Apostolick , but false counterfeyt and apostaticall . Secondly the scriptures ( sayth Mr B. ) make externall profession the visible constitution of the Church . His meaning must be , that profession of faith is required of such persons of yeres before they be admitted into the visible Church . Which truth the place cited by him Act. 8. 12. 37. 38. doth iustify , to which one place many other may be added to the same purpose , as Act. 10. 46. & & 16. ●4 , & 18. 8. But what is the Church of Worxsop better for this ? what profession of faith did the particular members make , when at the first of an Antichristian Synagogue ( as in Popery it was ) , it became or was constituted a true Christian Church ? was not the house built at the first as it is at this day repayred ? Let a man but hire a house within the precincts of your parish , & he is a ioyned member in your Ch : ipso facto , though he cannot manifest the least kernel of faith , or repentance , yea though he professe himself an atheist , horetick , ●orcerer , blasphemer ( or that which is worse if worse can be ) . All you do is to vse the woodden dagger Mr Barrow tells you of , to suspend him from the Lords supper , & it may be to get him excōmunicated by the officiall , ( if he have neither freinds nor mony . ) And this very excommunication shewes him to have been a member of you , for onely a brother is to be excommunicated , Math. 18. 15. 16. 17 and onely he that was within , may be cast out , 1 Cor. 5. 12. 13. And here , as before I will help to form your argument . The members of the Apostolick Church which were truely constituted were admitted by their personall profession of faith , and confession of sin , Math. 3. 6. Act. 8. 37. 38. and 10. 46. & 16. 14. & 1● . ● . & 19. 18. But the members of the Engl. assemblies neyther were nor are so admitted , but according to the parish perambulation whatsoever impiety they professe . Therefore their constitution is proved false by the evidence brought to iustify it . Lastly for the sacraments , as they are not the constitution of the Church , but do necessarily presuppose a Church constituted vnto which they are committed as † the oracles and ordinances of God vnto Israel , so is not the Church of England the Israel of God , the seed of Abraham , a peculiar people unto the Lord , but a mingled seed , as Ezra , 9. 1. 2. uncapable of the sacraments the seales of the covenant of grace . And the places Mr B. brings forth are so far from iustifying the constitution of the Church of England by the sacraments , as they do most notably evince the prophanation of the sacraments by the Church . The two places are Mat. 28. 19. 1 Cor. 10. 16. In the former the Lord Iesus sends his Apostles first to teach , or make men disciples , and then to baptise them ( including the children in the parents according to the covenant made with Abraham into which the gentiles were in their time to be gathered . Rom. 11. 17. Ephe. 2. 1 , 2. 13. 14. & 3. 6. ) But on the contrary the Lord Bishops in Engl. having found a readier way send out their parrish priests to baptise all before them that are borne in their parishes , whether their parents be taught or vntaught , the disciples of Christ or of antichrist , and the Divil , not passing by the children of recusant Papists & others refusing all communion with them , whose children they use to baptize by force , & against the will of their Parents , as I could prove ( if need were ) by sundry instances . And is not here an orderly constitution , and a Church truely gathered by the sacrament of baptisme ? Now 1 Cor. 10. 16. the Apostle teacheth that the bread and wine in the supper are the communion of the body and blood of Christ , that is effectuall pledges of our conjunction , and incorporation with Christ , and one with another : and in the 17. vers . that all which eat of one bread , or one loaf , are one mysticall body . This place alone if Mr B. and his fellow ministers would seriously con-consider and set themselves faithfully to observe they would rather offer their owne bodies to be torn in peices by wilde beasts , then the holy misteries of Christs body to be prophaned , as they are . And here as formerly I will help the Arguments raysed from the scriptures produced by Mr B. and some other of the same kinde into form thus . The sacrament of baptisme is to be administred by Christs appointment , and the Apostles example onely to such as are ( viz externally and so far as men can judge ) taught and made disciples , Mat. 28. 19. do receive the word gladly , Act. 2. 41. beleeve and so professe Ch. 8. 12. 13. 37. have received the holy Ghost Ch. 10. 47. and to their seed . Act. 2. 39. 1 Cor. 7. 14. But baptisme in Engl. is ministred by a far larger commission then Christs : though there be in the parents neyther appearance of faith nor holynes , if in stead of them they can procure godfathers and godmothers to cary the children to the font ( yea will they nil they ) the parrish priest hath commission to make them Christian soules every mothers childe of them , borne within his parrish precincts . And therefore the baptism in Engl. is not Christs baptisme in the administration of it . For the Lords supper the Apostle sayth , 1 Cor. 10. 16. that the bread and wine sanctifyed to that purpose is the communion , that is , an effectuall symbole or pledge of that communion which the receivers have with Christ. Wherevpon I do turne the point of this scripture into the bowels of the Church of Engl. thus . That which ioynes such men in communion with Christ as by his expresse word he excludes from all communion with him , that is so far from being the true constitutiō of the Church as it shewes both an vnholy confusion in the Church and a violent prophanation of the ordinance by it . But the supper as it is ministred in the Parish-assemblies , ( as they were at the first , & still are clapt together ) ioynes them with Christ with whom he expresly disclaymes all communion & fellowship as their practise compared with these scriptures doth make manifest to all men . 2 Cor. 6. 14. 15. 1 Ioh. 1. 6. Ergo. So that baptisme and the Lords supper are amongst you Mr B. and in your hands & handling , but as the holy vessels of the temple in Babylon & there togeither with the Lords people deteyned by frawd and violence . Our 2. supposed errour is thus layd downe . They hold our constitution a reall Idol , and so vs Idolaters . If the constitution of your Church be false and forged , ( like * the moneth which Ieroboam forged in his owne heart ) as hath been formerly proved in part , and shal be more fully in the traversing of the 8. errour , then it is an Idoll , if an Idoll , a reall Idol , for it is not meerly mentall , or notionall , but that which hath being and existence without the mind or vnderstanding . And where Mr B. affirms this to be contrary to the course of holy scriptures never taking Idol in this sense , because neyther he nor Marlorat finds the word Idol so vsed , he must know it is as impossible for eyther him , or Marl. or any other man to enumerate or reckon vp all the Idols wherof the scriptures speak , though not in expresse terms yet by iust cōsequence & proportiō ) as to number all the creatures in heaven and in earth , yea all the workes of mens hands , yea all the thoughts of their harts , for all these may and do in some abuse become Idols . And that we may better discern whether there be a like truth and boldnes in this assertion that the scriptures never take idol in this sense , let vs consider and compare together a few places . The Lord commaunded Moses , Exod. 25. & 26. & 27. to make the tabernacle and sanctuary of the Lord for the place of his dwelling and worship , and to this end did appoint both the matter ▪ and form of the whol work even to the least pin : & if Moses had framed it , eyther of other matter , or of the same matter after an other fashion , had not this forgery and devise for the worship of God been a reall , sensible , and palpable Idoll , a sinn against the second Commaundement which forbids nothing but Idolatry ? It cannot be denyed . Hence it followeth that the constitution or frame of the tabernacle or temple of the new testament , which is the visible Church 2 Cor. 6. 16. if it be other eyther in matter or form ( as yours is in both ) is a reall and substantiall Idoll . Secondly Antichristianism is Idolatry , and is in that respect called † Babylon , Sodom , and Egypt spiritually , so Antichristians are sayd * to worship the beast : now a devised constitution , frame and fabrick of the Church is a part of antichristianism , & of the apostasy of Antichrist & therefore a reall Idol : and as Mr Smyth truely affirmeth a greater Idoll then eyther the Antichristian ministery or worship . As “ the temple which sanctifyeth the gold is greater then the gould , & the altar which sanctifyeth the offering greater then the offering , so the temple of the new testament , the Church or people of God by whose faith all the ordinances of the Church are sanctifyed , is greater then the ministery , worship or any other ordinance : and so on the contrary being Idolatrous , a greater Idoll then they . And lastly the Church being the end of the ordinances , Mar. 2. 27. 28. is more excellent then they being true , and being false a more detestable Idoll then any of them . Lastly neyther your bolstring out of a false constitution as a new sin shal excuse you for not submitting vnto a true , nor your prophane scoffing at a true constitution as at the Diana of the Ephesians discourage vs from reioycing in our portion . It is with you in this case as it was sometimes with Rechum & Shimshay who making a shew as though they would have built the temple Zerubbabel ( but not being the men to whom this work appertayned ) laboured afterwards to hinder & discourage him , & the Iewes with him whom it did concerne . Ezra . 4. 1 , 2 , 3. 8. 9. Once you know Mr B. you did separate from the rest an hundred voluntary professors into covenant with the Lord , sealed vp with the Lords supper , to forsake all knowne sinn , to hear no wicked or dumb Ministers , and the like , which covenant long since you have dissolved , not shaming to affirme you did it onely in policy to keepe your people from Mr Smyth . Well Mr B. be not deceived God is not mocked , neither wil he hold them guiltlesse that so take his name in vayn , but as you have sowen so shall you reap . To conclude , you would have no man blame you for your contumelyes against the † planting of the Lords vineyard , the * building of Gods house , the “ composition of Christs body , the constitution of his Church . And wherefore ? because Mr Robinson held as much before into separation . And if it were so , should myne iniquities excuse yours ? But it is most vntrue you affirme . There never entred into my hart a thought , nor passed a word out of my mouth so contumelious against the true & orderly constitution of Christs Church : though I have ( and that worthily ) disliked , ( as I stil doe ) that hard & rash censure passed by some vpō the persons of such as of whō the Lord by the evidēt work of his spirit gives a better testimony . And for the poynt in hand , I am perswaded and so professe before all men that I see not by the revealed will of God in his word how to iudge otherwise of any ordinance of the Church , or exercise of communion out of a true constituted Church then of the sacrifices out of the tabernacle or temple , within whose circle they were concluded by the word of God. The third errour is thus set down . That such as are not of a particular constituted Church ( to wit such a one as theyrs is ) are no subiects of Christs kingdome . And since our Church is a particular congregation separated from Antichristianism , into covenant with God by voluntary submissiō vnto the gospel , we do avow it for truth that such ●● are not of a particular &c. For since the visible Church is the visible or externall † kingdome of Christ which he as mediator collecteth , protecteth , and administreth , he that is not a member of the visible Church is not in this regard a subiect of Christs kingdome . Neyther are your exceptions against this doctrine of any force . The scripture ( you say in the first place ) never sets forth any of Gods people by this mark . Yes that it doth and that oft tymes without any other mark . How oft doth Moses , and the other Prophets with him entreat the Lord to spare Israel when they sinned , for their constitution , that is for the covenant of his mercy into which he had admitted them with their forefathers Abraham , Isaak , and Iaakob ? The Lord protesteth Is. 1. that Israel did rebel against him , that they did not vnderstand , but were a most sinfid nation , yea as Sodom & Gomorrah , and yet he calls them children & his people . v. 1. 2. 3. 4. 10. yea passing Sodom in iniquity , and yet the daughter of his people , & daughter Zion , Lam. 4. 6. 22. And what do these and infinite other the like places but cōclude that where there was little or nothing els to be seen , the Lord marked out his people by this , that he had † established them a people vnto himself by covenant which though they for their part had broken by their iniquities , yet was for the present on his part vndissolved ? And where it is graunted by Mr B. that the godly ought to ioyn with the visible Church if possibly they can , why doth he blame vs which intend no further ? If men truely desire it but cannot possibly accōplish it , the Lord in this as in other cases , accepts the will for the deed . And so I answer your 3. Exceptiō in order touching the martyrs in Queen Maryes dayes and other godly persons there named , that some of them were members of the true visible Church actually , others actually separated from the false Church , and in will ( which God accepteth ) ioyneth with the true Church , & others walking faithfully according to their knowledg whether living or dead , are and were Gods people , though in Babylon . Your second exception is certayn scriptures to which ( you say ) this doctrine is contrary . The first is Gal. 3. 7. 9. And how to this ? They that are of the faith of Abraham separate themselves by faith from the world into covenant with the Lord , as Abrahā did Gen. 12. 1. 2. 3. Heb. 11. ● . To the 2. place which is 1 Ioh. 3. 14. I do answer that Iohn speaks of such as were of the true visible Church ; neyther can any other , according to the true visibility & manifestation of the love which the Lord requireth , love his brother , which is not of a true visible Church . He that doth not admonish his brother ( if he offend ) after that order , and in those degrees , which the word prescribeth , doth not love his brother . Lev. 19. 17. But onely he that is of a true visible Church and that furnished with the power of Christ , the keyes of the kingdome for the censures , can admonish his brother in that order and those degrees which the word prescribeth , Mat. 18. 15. 16. 17. And so this scripture Mr B. overthrowes both your opinion , and standing . The third scripture is 1 Cor. 1. 1. Paul wrytes there onely to visible Churches , to the Church of Corinth primarily and so by proportion to all other visible Churches in the world , for to them alone the censures , sacraments , prophesying , and other matters there handled , do appertayne . 1 Cor. 5. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. and 11. 20. and 14. 4. 5. The brother spoken of in the fourth and last place which is 2 Th. 3. 15. was a member of the visible Church and subiect of Christs kingdome , though walking inordinately in his calling as appeareth , v. 11. and therefore to be discountinanced and made ashamed by the Church that he might the more faythfully apply himselfe to his busines . These scriptures then do none of them wash this mark , from of Gods people , but some of them , if not all , print it far more deeply vpon them . Lastly you ask whither Christs kingdome be not spirituall , and invisible also ? Iob : 18. 33. and 10. 16. No man will deny it ( though the places you alledge do not so necessary prove it ) . But as Christs kingdome is spirituall and invisible also , so is it spirituall and visible also . The † man which hath receaved the spirit , is spirituall , and not the soule onely . So externall things may be spirituall & are in their relatō & vse and you erre , if you think otherwise . The * word , sacraments , & other ordināces of the Church are spiritual , yea all the “ sacrifices , of the faithfull are spirituall , & more specially , as the Lord Iesus is the Preist both of the soul & body & † hath payed a price for both , so is he also the King both of soule & body and swayes the scepter of his kingdome not onely internally by his spirit in the soule , but externally , and visibly also by this word in the outward man , guyding the same by his lawfull officers depu●ed there vnto . But what is the cause why Mr B. should move this question ? Is it not for that himselfe and his Church not having Christ to rule over them by his lawes but other kings and Lords by theyr canōs , he would insinuate that Christ exerciseth none external regiment over his Church , nor is the King over the bodyes of his subiects at all , thus rather labouring to abolish that part of Christs Kingdō then to submit to it . But as our principall care at all times must be to have the throne of our L. Iesus erected in our harts , that he may reigne there , so , that we may give him his owne entyre , & that which he hath so dearly bought , we must rank our bodyes also vnder the regiment he hath established for the well ordering & preservation of his kingdom forever both in soule & body , & not like Nichodemites , or Familists presume to submit the outward man we care not to whome , or what . Our fourth supposed error is . That all not in theyr way are without , and they do apply against vs 1 Cor. 5. 12. Ephe. 2 12. And since the way is one as Christ is one , and we assured , that our way is that way of Christ , we doubt not to affirme that all not in our way are without in the present respect ; provided alwayes that we do iudge that other Churches may be and are in our way , and we in theirs , and both they and we in Christs , though there be betwixt them & vs sundry differences both in iudgment and practise . And that we doe fitly apply against you the scriptures above named , I do thus manifest . The Apostle 1 Cor. 5. reproves the Church for tolerating amongst them the incestuous person vncensured , charging them to vse the power of the Lord Iesus given vnto them , for that purpose , and that as vpon him for the present , so vpon other notorious offenders at other times . Now least they should mistake his meaning he shewes how far this his advertisement extends , viz : to such offenders as were in the Church and to all , and onely them . And this limitation of the power of Christ to the proper obiect , he sets downe in this 12. verse , affirmatively , to them that are within , and negatively , to them that are without . From this place then I do thus reason . They that are within are subiect to the power of excōmunication by the Church gathered together in the name of Christ , they without not . But you Mr B. and so of the rest , are not subiect to the judgement of the Church thus gathered together , but to the Archbishop of York , Who is not the Church of Workxsop . Therefore you are not within but without in the Apostles meaning . The second place we apply against you is , Ephe. 2. 12. whence I reason thus . They that are aliants and straungers from the common wealth of Israel , are without . But such are you , and your whole parrish . Ergo. The first Proposition is the Apostles words : for to be without Christ ( as there he speakes ) and to be a stranger from the cōmon wealth of Israel , is all one . The second Proposition is thus confirmed . The cōmon wealth of Israel was a religious policy consisting of a peculiar people , of whom every one was by the word of God separated into the covenant of his mercy Deut. 29. 10. 11. 12. 13. Neh. 10. 1. 28. 29. But to affirme that every person in the Church of England , or in any parish Church is admitted by the Lord into the new covenant or testament , is both against the expresse word of God , Heb. 8. 8. 9. 10. 11. 12. and his owne conscience ( I am perswaded ) that affirmed it . And thus so long as you keep your standing , you must be content to stand without in the meaning of the Apostle in the places forenamed , neither can you wrythe in your self , or corrupt these places to get in by them , though you give sundry attempts . as 1. These places are ment of such as never made so much as an outward profession of Christ at all : What better are men for professing God in word when in deed they deny him ? They are never a whit the lesse but the more abhominable . Tit. 1. 16. And might not any Papist or other heretik make this exception ? For they make a kind of profession of Christ Iesus . And when you Mr B. in your pulpit thunder the iudgments of God out of the Prophets and Apostles against Atheists , Papists , blasphemers , proud and cruell persequuters , might not a man serve you as you do us , and tel you that the most of the threatnings you denounce were directed against the Heathen which did not so much as make an outward profession of Christ. Lastly the H. Ghost terming Antichristianisme Babylon , Sodom , Egypt , spiritually teacheth vs to apply against it spiritually what the Prophets have civily spoken against them . 2. They cannot prove vs without by the scripture , expounding this phrase without by the scriptures , laying a side the forgeryes of theyr own braynes . The cause is playn that whosoever i● not a free deni●en of the cōmon wealth of Israell , and vnder the iudgment of the Church is without , and there must stand by Gods appoyntment . And that this is your estate is as playne . And both these we have proved by the scriptures without forgeryes of our owne brayne ; all the brayns you have will fynd no forgeryes in our proofes . 3 God almighty hath witnessed that we are his people . 1 By giving vs his word , Psal. 14. 7. 19. 20. and sacraments . This scripture proves that God gave his word to Iaakob , & statutes to Israel , but prove your selves the Israel of God ; shew vs from the word of God the charter of your corporatiō , & that your Nationall , Provintiall , Diocesan , and Parochial Churches are that new Ierusalem , and your inhabitants the right Citzens of that City enfranchised with her heavenly libertyes , and answer the proofs brought to the contrary , otherwise though you be never so shameles a begger of the question in hand , we may not graunt it you . 2 By Gods effectuall working by his word , Ier. 23. 22. therefore heard ●● the voyce of the sonne of God , Ioh. 5. 25. and the words of eternal life . God forbid I should deny eyther the truthes of Christ you have a mongst you , or any good effect , which God hath wrought by them , but this I deny , that either they are or have been so effectual as to make any one of your parish assemblies the Church of Christ truely gathered & constituted . And for the place of Ieremy 23. 22. which as here to prove a true church , so every where to prove a true ministery by the effectuall work therof is so frequētly alledged , I desire it may be wel cōsidered & it will appear that the Prophet speaks not at all of the effect of prophecying , but of the drift , & intēt of the Prophets , which ( had they taken counsel of the Lord ) would not have flattered the people in theyr sinns , by preaching peace peace , as they did , thereby hardening theyr hearts and strengthening theyr hands in their disobedience , and rebellion , but would on the contrary by denouncing against them the iudgements of God , have endeavoured their repentance , as the true Prophets did . And if we must thus iudge of true , and false prophets by the effects of their ministery certayn it is that neyther Ezechiel no Ieremy himself stood in Gods counsel , but were false Prophets , for neyther of them were effectuall for the peoples conversion , Ier. 20 7. 8. Ezech : 3 : 7. 11. And yet a wonder it is to hear what a noyse Mr B. and his people do make with this scripture of Ieremy , as though it did without contradiction iustify both Church and Ministery by some ministeriall effect where it is most playne to all that but read the Chapter with any observatiō , that the Prophet speaks not a word of the effect of their Ministerie , but of the drift of the ministers the false Prophets desperately slattring the people to their destruction . 3 By Gods most straunge and miraculous deliverance of vs from the enemyes of his gospell : a promise of God to his people . Lev. 26. 7. 8. Deut. 28. 7 ▪ These deliverances do no more iustify your estate before the Lord , then the † deliverance of Samaria out of the hands of the Aramites did the ten tribes in their Apostasie . The Lord doth promise victory , and deliverance vnto his people in their iust quarrels , and vse of good meanes , but ever with condition of his glory , and their good . And they thus walking , and being thus delivered take experience of the truth of his promises , and have cause of reioycing in the God of their salvation ; but besides this there are many other causes of deliverance and victory which with all other things of the same kinde , † come alike to all men good & bad ; and thus to measure the Lords love by morsels bewrayes too carnal a mind in any man : and Mr B. neighbour minister ( if he have a fatter benefice then he ) may aswel avouch him self a better minister , for the quoted scriptures do as well promise plenty and aboundance as deliverance and victory . And where in the last place you lay to our charge , that though wee like it well that you should call vs brethren , yet wee will not so acknowledge you , nor do we hold our selves bound so to admonish you , I do answer , that as we finde at your hands Mr B. little brotherly dealing ( traducing vs in all places as Brownists , Schismatiques , Anabaptists , & persons obstinate in sin ) so neyther indeed can we acknowledge any of you for brethren in that visible cōmunion of Saincts which is the Church , notwithstanding the loving and respective remembrance wherein we haue very many amongst you severally considered for your personall graces . Our reasons are these . 1. We cannot admonish any of you according to the rule & order of Christ , Math. 18. to which duety towards every brother in communion we are absolutely bound . 2. We can not acknowledge you for our brethen , but we must also acknowledge your Prelates for our reverend fathers , vnder whose blessings we mean not to come . 3. We cannot acknowledge some of you brethren , but we must acknowledg all amōgst you for such : for there is but one brotherhood of all amongst you , as your owne rhyme teacheth ( and makest vs all one brotherhood ) . Now by the scriptures we have not learnt to enter any such fraternity , where we must acknowledge brother Preist , brother half Priest , brother dumb Preist , brother Atheist , brother Epicure , brother drunkerd , brother blasphemer , brother witch , brother conjurer , & lastly brother recusant Papist , if not living yet dead , for so you must bury him as your deare brother , committing his soul to God , and his body to the earth . And for these causes among others , we cannot acknowledge you ( as we desire ) in that speciall fellowship of the gospel , & communion of saynts . But disclayme you the fatherhood of the Prelates , the brotherhood of the vnhallowed multitude , and fest your selves in the family , and househould of God , and we will acknowledge you in word and deed . We will not with that vngodly brother grudge your cōming into our fathers house , but will help with our owne hands to kill the fat calf , & wil make all spirituall melody with you in the Lord. The fifth errour reputed is , That onely Saincts , that is , a people forsaking all knowne sinne of which they may be convinced , doing all the knowne will of God , encreasing and abiding ever therein are the onely matter of the visible Church . This Position , which you account errour , rightly vnderstood , and according to his exposition from whom you received it , is an vndoubted truth . For of such onely ( externally , and so farre as men can iudge ) the true Church is gathered , whether out of Paganism , Iudaism , Antichristianism , or any other Idolatrous , or adulterous estate whatsoever , and of them alone framed , as of the subject matter : which is onely true , whilest it continueth such , & false when it degenerates from this disposition , and so as rotten & putrified stuffe to be cast out of the Church . We will then come to your allegations to the contrary . And first you say , this is a proper description of the invisible members of Iesus Christ , secluding even hypocrites from being true matter of the visible Church . All the true and lawfull members of the visible Church , are to me members of the invisible Church , to me , Isay , which am bound to iudge them to be in truth , as outwardly they appear : & so I am taught by the Apostle himself who accounts the whole visible Ch : and every member of it † elect , redeemed , iustifyed sanctifyed , which are conditons competent to the invisible Church . And for hypocrites , as they may perform all the conditions here required ( visible or to vs ) as Mr Smyth hath answered , so do we take knowledge of none such in the Chur : in the particular , til they be knowne in their day by the outbreakings of sinne , and being so discovered , they are no longer to be reteyned in the Church , but to beare their sinne , except they repent , and then who can repute them hypocrites ? You object secondly , that this makes that David , Iehoshaphat , and the Church of God in their dayes were no true matter of a Church , for there was marrying many wives , the continuance of the high places , the brasen serpent worshipped , Ioabs murder permitted , the bill of divorsement allowed by Moses : so after Corinth and the Church of Asia being admonished repented not , 2 Cor. 12. 21. Rev. 2. 20. 21. To let passe here Mr Smythes erroneous and Anabaptistical answer , wherein he makes the constitution of the Iewish Church the constitution of the old testament , when as the Church of the Iewes was cōstituted in “ Abrahā 400 & 30 yeres before the law or old testament was given , which was after added clean for an other end then to constitute a Church : the ordinances and communion he makes merely ceremoniall and carnall , which the scriptures expresly call † spiritual , whereof also prayer & prophe●ying were parts , neyther are our ordinances more spirituall ',' remembrances of Christ come , then were theirs in their true and naturall relation , spirituall * shadowes of Christ to come . I do answer to the exception , first that you cannot prove the holy men you name to haue sinned in all the particulars wherwith you charge them , as Moyses in tolerating the bill of divorcement which you injuriously affirm he allowed , much lesse can you prove they were convinced of sin in suffering these things , and yet suffred them . Nay is it not your owne doctrine , that grace , and continuance in sin without repentance cannot stand together ? But what countenance doe the infirmities of these holy men give to the prophane and graceles multitude against whom we deal ? and whom alone we cast out of the account of Saincts ? with what conscience or colour can any man bring in the infirmities of Moses , David , and Iehoshaphat to plead the Saintship of all that godles crew in the English assemblies ? And for the Churches of Corinth , & Thyatira , eyther they did repent vpon admonition , though not at the first , or els the Lord in his time discharged them , as he threatned in the same , & the like cases . Rev. 2. 5. 16. 21. 22. & 3. 15. 16. The third exception is that the scriptures we bring are places speaking of invisible members properly , of visible figuratively , as they are iudged to be , on in hope they may be , or sh●wing what men ought to be , but shew not that men are so , or els are not Gods people . It cannot be manifested that we bring one scripture meant of the invisible Church , to prove the holynes of the visible Church . The vanity of this obiection hath been discovered in the expositiō of that your picked instance , 1 Pet. 2. It is true indeed that the scriptures we cite speak of men as they are iudged to be , and if you would graunt , that onely they are true members of the Church which by the word of God , ( which must be the rule of our iudgement ) may be iudged saincts , it would end this controversie . And even for them without , though never so prophane , they ought to be holy , and there is hope they may be holy , but Gods people must be such as they ought to be in some measure , & so are all they whome he receives into covenant with him , and if they fall from their righteousnes and will not be reclaymed , they are to be put * out and to be delivered to Satan , whose vassals they are , and not Gods people any longer . In the 4. place you come to speak of this saint-ship in question negatively , and affirmatively . First you deny men to be called saints in scripture , eyther for soundnes of knowledge , for proof of which you alledge the ignorance of Christs disciples and others , Act. 19. 1. 2. or for internal pure affections , for then ( say you ) Paul had been no saint , Rom. 7. 18. 21. or for holy practise of their dutie alwayes : for which you quote Est. 7. 12. Which is all one as if you should say , the scriptures do not call men saints because they are saints , but for some other causes knowne to you . For what is it to be a sainct , but to be holy ? And what to be holy , but to be of a sound iudgement , pure affections , and vnblameable conversation ? And here Mr B. you speak both injuriously , and weakly ; injuriously in insinuating against vs , as if we held no men saynts but such as are free from all humayne fraylties . Weakly , in affirming the disciples of Christ had not sound knowledge , because they were ignorant of many things : that Paul had not pure affections , because he had some flesh yet dwelling in him : and that there cannot be the constant practise of holy duties , notwithstanding such fraylties , as to which all men are subiect . Whereas to all men of vnderstanding , soundnes of judgement is one thing , and infallibility an other : purity in affection one thing , and perfection in purity another : and so an holy conversation one thing , and ●● a life without all humane fraylty an other thing vnatteynable in this life . The Apostle Paul † knew but in part , how small then is our pittance in knowledge ? & yet our affections come short of our knowledge , and our practise of our affections , and desires : and yet we doubt not ( by the riches of the grace of God ) but we haue all atteyned to soundnes of knowledge , purity of affections , and holynes of cōversation , how small and weak soever our measure be . Thus having considered of the exceptions against such marks of saynt-ship , as we set downe , we will come to view the badges , by which the authour will haue saynts descryed , & acknowledged . First ( say you ) men are called saynts because of their outward calling to Christianity as 1 Cor. 1. 1. which is holy and to an holy end , 1 Thes. 4. 7. If your meaning be , that men because of their externall calling on Gods part , or that the gospel is preached vnto them , are therefore saynts , whether they beleeve the gospel , or beleeve it not , you mistake too much , for then all the persequuters and blasphemers to whom Paul preached , should be saynts : yea it is an errour to think that Paul stiles any sayntes by calling in that place but such as were truely sanctifyed , so far as he could discerne . For the same persons he terms saynts by calling , he acknowledges in the same as sanctifyed in the Lord Iesu● , which implyes both justification & sanctification . And where you adde , that the end of the Church is holynes 1 Thes. 4. 2. as the thing you affirme is true , so the truth of it is sufficient to manifest the vnholy constitution of your Church , & your as vnholy defence of it . For if the end of the calling of the Church be sanctity and holines to the glory of God , which is the supream end , Math. 5. 16. then th● constitution and gathering of the Ch : of England , which at the first was ( I mean after the Romish Apostasie ) and still is of persons for the most part apparantly vnholy , and vnsanctifyed , as it is most praei●diciall to the glory of God , so doth it not onely frustrate but most directly crosse & oppose the end for which the Lord in great mercy , wisdome , and holines , separateth his Church and people vnto himself from the rest of the prophane world . And as it is a certaine signe that a Minister is not called into his place , if he be not in some measure qualifyed with such holy gifts , and graces as serve to the ends of the Ministery to which he is called , ( which you both affirme , and confirm vndeniably , pag. 132. 133. of this book ) so is it also in iust proportion a certayn , and infallible argument , that the nationall Church of England , ( and so of the Churchlings vnder it ) is not called into covenant and communion with God being gathered of such persons ( in the body of it ) as are onely vtterly vnanswerable but clean contrarily affected to the ends of the true Church which are holynes , and the glory of God. And where you Mr B. would fasten the name of saynts vpon people vnworthy of it , by a similitude drawn from a Minister a● ▪ the first rightly called to his office , but after shewing himself vnworthy of it , whom you wil stil have called a minister . I answer , that if he were known to be vnworthy of it at the first or not known to be worthy , he was not rightly called eyther to the office , or by the name : and if he afterwards shew himself vnworthy , he is to be censured accordingly , and so with the office to forfeyt the name : ( though he hold both with you ) & so it is with men in the generall calling of Christianity : they that are vnworthy of it are never called of God to take it vpon them , and if they prove vnworthy afterwards , they are to be deprived of Christian society . 2 Because of the profession of faith in Christ who maketh all true beleevers holy and sancts . It is true you say that Christ makes all true beleevers holy and Saints , but I deny that every profession of faith in Christ argues a true beleever . A false dissembler is he , and no true beleever that in word pretends faith in Christ , and in deed denyes him . 3. In respect of Baptisme , by which externally the partie baptised is to be iudged to have put on Christ. Gal. 3. 27. to have remission of his sinnes , Act. 2. 39. to be partaker of Christs death , Rom. 6. 3. 4. Col. 2. 21. and to have assurance of salvation , 1 Pet. 3. 21. All persons baptized neyther do in truth , nor are by vs to be judged to haue put on Christ , to haue remission of sinnes , &c. but onely such as to whom by vertue of the covenant of grace , baptisme apperteyneth . We must not conceive of baptisme as of a charme , or think it effectuall to all it is put vpon , but must judge it avayleable and of vse , according to the * covenant of promise which God hath made to the faithful and their seed , and none otherwise . And baptisme administred to any others is so farr frō investing them with any saynt-ship in that estate , as it makes guilty both the giver and receiver of sacriledge , and is the taking of Gods name in vayne . 4 In respect of the better part , though the fewer by many , for thus the scripture speakes , Deut. 1. 23. 24. 1 Cor. 6. 11. with 5. 1. 2 Cor. 12. 21. The scriptures never ascribe holines to a people for some fewes sake , if the rest be vnholy , and prophane . I read in the scriptures that vncleane persons and things do † pollute , and vnhallow clean persons and things , & that a “ little leaven levens the whol lump : but that clean persons or things should hallow persons or things , which are vnclean , or that a little sweet meal should make sweet a sower lump that read I not , but the contrary confirmed by the forenamed scriptures . And for the Ch : of the Iewes & of Corinth in which you instance , as they were holy ( omitting other respects ) for the holy covenant into which the Lord had assumed the body of them . Rom. 11. 16. so were the desperately wicked amongst them no true members of the body , but as putrifyed and rotten parts to be cut off , and cast out from the rest . And where Paul writes , to the Church at Corinth , stiles them sayntes , and advertises them , to excommunicate the incestuous person , what can be more vnreasonably affirmed then that the incestuous person was one of these Saincts ? as though Paul had written to him to cast out himself , which must needs follow by Mr B. assertion and proofes of it . 5. In respect of the visible signes of Gods favour , promise , and presence to be with his , &c. as Ierusalem was called the holy city . Mat. 4. 5. But we deny your nationall Church to be that * holy city , the new Ierusalem coming downe from God out of heaven . It is rather Babylon , though much purged and repayred . And Babylon cannot be Ierusalem , nor was ever holy , not withstanding the spoiles of Ierusalem , and of the Temple also be found there : as were in the civil Babylon many Israelites captived , and with them the holy vessels , the holy instrumēts , yea the holy writings of the Prophets , & their persons also , 2 Chron. 10. 18. Psal. 137. 1. 2. D. 9. 1 , 2. 6. In respect of Gods good pleasure who lookes not vpon his Church , as the particular members thereof are , but as he accepteth of them : therefore it is sayd , He saw none iniquity in Iaakob , nor transgression in Israel . Num. 23. 21. and yet Israel was then an vnbeleeving and stifnecked people . Here you say and vnsay with one breath . You graunt Israel to haue been an holy people and without iniquity , as Balaam spake , in the Lords acceptance according to his good pleasure , and yet to have been at the same time an unbeleeving and stifnecked people , which affirmation as it conteynes in it an apparant contradiction , so doth it lay vpon God an vnsufferable imputation , as though he took pleasure in the wicked , or did accept of them . It cannot be denyed but the people ever and anon rose vp in rebellion against the Lord : and for instance in the Chapter next but one before going , through impatiency of their ordinary food , they murmured against God , and against Moses . Numb . 21. 4. 5. But did things so continue ? No verily , for the Lord sent fyery serpents amongst them , and destroyed many of them , and by his correction brought the rest to repentance ● vers . 6. 7. And now as at other times , when they provoked him , smit them with grievous plagues & punishments , and so causing them to passe vnder the rod and picking out the cheif rebels , and fifting out the sinners to destruction , and brought them againe into the covenant . And thus much of your respects of Sainct-ship whereof some are not true in themselves , others impertinent to your estate , and the most flatly condemning it . And though you Mr B. say it never so oft , and all the divines in the world with you ( as here you speak ) that the visible Church is a mixt company ( as your very owne book of Articles affirms the contrary , describing the Church to be a company of faithfull people ) yet do the divine scriptures speak otherwise , which I will clearly manifest , and therein also free the Parable , Math. 13. which you bring in for proofes , from that violence , which you and others offer them : forcing Christ clean against his will to plead for Antichrist . And with the scriptures I do affirme against you , that the Church of Christ is no such mingled meslyne , or monstrous compound , but a body simple , vniform , & one , proportionable in every mēber vnto the head , informed by one spirit , and called in one hope , Ephe. 4. 4. And for wicked , and vngodly persons so farr are they from being the true naturall members whereof the body consisteth , as the whol of the parts , as they serve indeed for no other purpose then to infect , and corrupt the rest , and if redresse be not had in time , to eat out the very hart of the whole . But before I come to the point in controversy , I will lay down two cautions for the preventing of errour in the simple , & of cavelling in such as desire to contend . First it must be considered , that where the quaestion is about the visible or externall Church which is by men discernable , and not of that Church which is internall and invisible , which onely the Lord knoweth , we speak here of visible and externall holynes onely , whereof men may judge , and not of that which is within and hid from mans ey . For we doubt not but the purest Ch : vpō earth may consist of good and bad in Gods ey , of such as are truely faythfull , and sanctifyed , & of such as have onely for a tyme put on the outside and vizard of sanctity , which the Lord will in due tyme pluck of , though in the mean while mans dim sight cannot pearce through it . 2. I desire it may be remēbred that the question betwixt Mr B. and me is about the true and naturall members whereof the Ch : is orderly gathered and planted , and not about the degenerate & decayed estate of the Church & members ; for we know that naturall * children may become rebellious , the faithful city an harlot , the silver drosse , and the wyne corrupt with water : the noble vine so planted whose plants were all naturall , may degenerate into the plantes of a strange vine . But as it were fond Phylosophy , in the description of wives and children , and their true & naturall properties , to make rebellion a property of a child , because many children prove rebels against their parents , or to make whoredome a property of a wife , because many wives prove vnfaithful that way , so is it as prophane divinity to make vngodly persons the true matter of the Church , & their profanenes a true property of the same , because many seeming saynts at the first do so creep in , and do afterwards discover their owne shame , & are oft times through want of zeal too long tolerated in the Church , to the dishonour of God & prejudice of the gospel . And so I come to manifest by an induction of particulars , that all the visible Churches gathered and planted by the Lords line & level frō the beginning of the world were in their collection & cōstitution , simple , vniform , and vnmixt , consisting of good alone in the respect in hand . And first the Lord created a Church of Angels in heaven , which wer all good & holy without mixture , til † some by sin fell frō their first and originall estate , & so leaving their own habitation were cast down to hel . After that God created a Church of mankind in Paradise , consisting of two persons both holy & good . And thus the Churches of creation were gathered of angels and men without mixture . Now if any man object that in these instances I fetch my beginnings too farr of , my answer is that the Lord had , & hath the same ends and respects in the creating & restoring of his Ch : which are his own glory & their happines . And if it were the will of the Lord that persons notoriously wicked should be admitted into the Ch : then should he ditectly crosse himself & his own ends , & should receive into the visible covenāt of grace such as wer out of the visible estate of grace , & should plant such in his Church for the glory of his name , as served for none other vse then to cause his name to be blasphemed ▪ Hereupon I frame an Argument thus . That order for the gathering of Ch : which directly crosses the mayne ende● for which the Lord would have his Church gathered , is not of God. But the order , for which Mr B. pleads ( which is , that apparantly prophane persons may with the godly be gathered into the visible Church ) crosses the Lords ends of gathering Churches : and therefore is not of God. The former proposition is without controversie , the latter is thus manifested . The mayne ends for which the Lord gathereth and preserveth his Church vpon earth are that he might have a * peculiar people separated vnto himselfe ; from all other peoples to call vpon his name in faith and to glorify him theyr heavenly father in their holy conversation , whom he also might glorify in the end of their fayth , the salvation of theyr soules . But for wicked & vngodly persons in the Church as they serve no no way for these ends but the cōtrary causing “ Gods name to be blasphemed , and † his wrath to come vpon their disobedience so to gather or admit them into the Church is vtterly to frustrate Gods ends , and to gather for Satan rather then for God. To proceed . In the restoring of mankind & planting the first Ch : in the covenant of grace established in “ the seed of the woman , there were onely saynts , without any such mixture as Mr B. makes . Now as all true churches from the begining to the end of the world are one in nature and essentiall constitution , and the first the rule of the rest , so the first being gathered of good matter not bad , declares both Mr B. Church and opinion to be bad , and not good . And when in processe of tyme * Cain which was of the evill one , bewrayed himself he as a degenerate branch was broken of , & driven out of the visible presence of God , Gen : 4. 14. it is further imputed by Moses for sin to † the sonnes of God that they maryed with the daughters of men . Now if it were ( & “ still be ) unlawfull for the godly to contract with the wicked in the civil covenant of mariage , how much more in the religious covenant of the Church & communion of Saints ? To discend lower ▪ God gave vnto Abraham and his family the covenant of circumcision , Gen. 17. 10. which the Apostle , Rom. 4. 11. calls the seal of the righteousnes of faith . Now to affirm that the Lord would seale vp with the visible seale of the righteousnes of faith any visibly unrighteous & faythles person were a bould chalenge of the most High , for the profanation of his owne ordinance . And the same covenant which God at the first made with Abraham , & continued with Isaak & Iakob , he after renued with the whole Church sundry tymes upon their repentance , in regard wherof the scriptures give very honourable testimony of al & every one of them : as that they were * the Lords pleasant plant , & vineyard hedged in , planted with the best plants , yea a noble vyne , whose plants were all natural , yea natural branches , though they did oft tymes degenerate into the plant of a strange vyne , and were therefore oft tymes forsaken of God , and in the end † for their infidelitie quite broken off . Lastly when Iohn Baptist the fore-runner of Christ , Christ himself , and his Apostles were to repayr the desolations of Sion , and to plant the Gentiles “ into the root of the Iewes , and to make them * one inheritance , and one body with them , they did not by the coactive lawes of men shuffle together good and bad as intending a new monster or Chymera , but admitted of such , and none other , as † confessed their sinne and iustified God : as * were not of the world , but chosen out of it , and hated of it : as “ did receive the word gladly , and communicate ●● of them in all things , as every one had need and that in gladnes and singlenes of hart : as received testimony by the H. Ghost himself that they were such as should be saved : as were “ al of them purchased with the blood of God : as † for al whom there was cause to thank God : as whom the Apostle * did remember in his prayers with gladnes , being perswaded that God could perfect his good work begon in the as became him to iudge of them all , being al partakers of the grace of God with him in the confirmation of the Gospel , and after all whom he longed from the verie hart root in Christ : as “ for all whom he gave thanks , alwayes making mention of them in his prayers without ceasing , remembring their effectual fayth , diligent love , and patient hope in the Lord Iesus , which did grow in every one of them . Here is no such mingle mangle as M. B. would make of good and bad , but al good , and so avowed by the Holy Ghost , though without doubt many of these were masked , and hollow-harted hypocrites whose goodnes was but † as the goodnes of Ephraim and Iudah , like the morning cloud , and like the dew which falle● in the morning , & ●ades away . And now I will come to the two parables , Mat. 13. with which as with two mighty Engines Mr B. & others , will needs push over the partition wall of separation of the saynts from the world , of righteousnes from unrighteousnes , of light from darknes , of Christ from Beliall , of the beleevers from the vnbeleevers . And for ingresse into the exposition of these two parables of the field and draw nett , I do desire it may be considered , that for the atteyning of the right sense of the scriptures we must remember to interpret the more dark and obscure places by places more playne and easy ; and so parables being dark speaches , and more hardly vnderstood without expresse exposition , Mat. 13. 10. 11. Mark , 4. 11 , 12 , are not to expound playne rules , but to be expounded by them . Which proviso alone being observed might stand in stead of all answer to whatsoever out of these perverted parables could be objected . The point is , Mr B. following ( I confesse ) the most beaten way , makes the field the visible Church , and the tares scandalous offenders , seen and discovered . Wherevpon it must follow , that as the Lord forbids the servants to meddle with the tares , or with the plucking them vp , but will haue them , & the wheat to grow together in the feild till the harvest , so both ministers and people are str●ytly inhibited and forbidden any way to admonish & censure wicked and scandalous persons in the Church , but must let them there remayne without disturbance , till the last judgement . The venemous weeds , the noysome tares , ( Idolaters , hereticks , covetous persons , blasphemers and all ) whose nature is to overspread and choak the wheat , must be suffred still to grow with it . And thus at once by this one prophane glosse , all the tex●s of scriptures , and commaundements of Christ , both for admonitions , and excommunications , are vtterly voided and ānihilated . The brethren , nay the ministers themselves may not medle with the tares , the wicked , to admonish or reprove them , they must be let alone ; the sword of the Censures so gratiously given to cut of rotten members , must no more now be drawn out , but must rust in the sheath of this expositiō , notwithstanding all the playn scriptures to the contrary , Lev. 19. 17. ● Thes. ● . 14. 1 Tim. 5. 30. & 2 Ep. 4. 2. Mat. 18. 15. 1 Cor. 5. 4. 5. All the power of our L. Iesus Christ given to his Church for the rooting out of obstinate offenders , & casting down of every thing exalting it self against the knowledge of God is not onely weakened , but even disanulled by this vnreasonable exposition , that tares , that is , notorious offenders must still be suffred to grow in the feild , the Church . And if the parable be thus meant , hovv can it be defended that any Church should cast out any offenders whomsoever ? how dare the Prelates in Engl : with their substitutes take this forbidden weedhook into their hands , & vse it against any tare amongst them ? if any tares be to be plucked vp , why not all ? & if all be to be let alone , why meddle they with any ? Indeed I must needs acknowledge & will not wrōg them , that if they should execute their owne canons , as they have framed them , they should not very oft practise against this expositiō , nor gather the tares frō among the wheat , but the wheat frō amongst the tares . But to proceed . It may be some wil answer , that Christ doth not here absolutely forbid his disciples the vse of the Censures against the wicked , but rather acquaints thē before hād what wil be the estate of the Ch : & how the wicked wil be suffred to continue in it vncensured . And if this were so it made nothing against me , nor for Mr B : it were the Churches sin so to suffer them , & I deny not but Churches vsually are to negligent & remisse , through want of zeal & faithfulnes to the Lord in this duty . But it is plain the Lord Iesus layes a flat inhibition against the weeding out of these tares , & expresly cōmaunds to let them alone : & this cōmandemēt also he backes with two substantial reasons , the first least they pluck vp the wheat with the tares . v. 29 : the 2. because the Lord hath appointed another time , the tyme of the harvest for the plucking them out , v. 30. Now some being ashamed of the grosnes , & in deed of the iniquity of this exposition , would fayne moderate & qualify the matter , by turning it off to these & these sinns , & sinners . Some say that by the tares are meant the ministers onely , & that they are not to be medled with , though they transgresse , least the wheat be plucked vp with thē : as though the Lord would have the persons of men respected in judgement : yea verily there is more need to look to them in such cases , then to any private mēbers whomsoever , as whose sinns are more displeasing vnto God , more scandalous to them without , & more pernitious to the Church then of any others . Some again wil have this prohibitiō onely to take place , when the multitude of the offenders is so great , as that they cannot be censured without danger of schisme , and distraction , as though the multitude of offenders should priveledge the offence , and as though the Lord Iesus by his power given to his Church ; 1 Cor. 5. 4. should fear to meddle with them for their multitude , and might , as David feared to meddle with the sonnes of Zeruiah , because they were too hard for him . The Apostle sayth , ( speaking of the incestious man ) that † ▪ little leaven leaveneth the whole lump : how much more a great deal , which makes all more sower . And for answer to both , it is apparant the Lord here forbidds the rooting out of any tares whither fewer or more in number , whither of high or low growth . Let men then cease to draw in by the hayr of the head these parables for the tolerating of the wicked in the Church : ( an intollerable wickednes ) as most prejudicial to the * name of God , which is by this meanes blasphemed , to the partyes salvation , who by this connivency is hardned in his sinne , where by “ due censuring , he should be humbled : to the health and safety of the body which is hereby corrupted and * defyled , and to the conversion of them without , who by the ‘. holy converversation of the Church should be provoked to the love of the truth . These things being thus cleared , I come in the next place to the true and naturall exposition , which ( I doubt not ) these scriptures will well bear . I do then find two interpretations , eyther of both ( I am assured ) more agreable to the truth , then this forced glosse by me cōfuted , and neyther of them conteyning in it any thing which the words of the Parable will not beare , or which is dissonant to the analogy of faith or any other scripture . First admit the feyld be the Church which Christ expounds the world , then say I , by tares in the feild are meant not notorious offenders , but hypocrites , not so throughly discovered , which by the envy of Satan are foysted into the Church . It wil be sayd that tares are easily discerned frō wheat : I answer not alwayes so , though oakes may , as one of your owne hath spoken upon this scripture : and it is certainly reported by such as have travayled Iury & those parts , to which the Lord hath reference , that the weeds we call tares are there very hardly discerned from the true wheat . If it be further pressed that the tares are espied , I do further answer , that it is in parables both curiosity and danger to labour to make all partes meet in every particular : and since this particular of spying the tares is omitted by Christ in the exposition wee may well be modest in it . But let it be that the tares are seen ( as the words are ) the question is who those servants are espying them , and so desiring to have them rooted out . These servants may well be some speciall persons in the Church endued with a singular spirit of watchfulnes , and discerning , by which they do discover in some persons this tarish disposition vnder the ●ayl of holynes : so Paul spied out that bitter root of envy , and pride , by which some were set a work to preach Christ : such persons notwithstanding must be born till their sinnes be ripe , and * the Lord lead them forth amongst the workers of iniquity . Or by the servants may be here meant the Angels , who by conversing much with the Ch : both can & without doubt do through the subtilty of their nature , & long experience spy out in the Church much cloked wickednes , & impiety , which as the zealous ministers of Gods justice they are ready to revenge . But since the Lord Iesus , who best knew his owne meaning , calls ‘* the feild the world , and makes † the harvest which is the end of the field , the end of the world , and not of the Church , why should we admit of any other interpretation ? Neyther is it like that Christ would in the expounding of one parable speak an other , as he should have done , if calling the feyld the world , he had meant the Church . As God then in the beginning made man good , & placed him in the field of the world there to grow , where by the envy of the serpent he was soon corrupted , so ever since hath the seed of the serpent ( stirred vp by their father the Divel ) snarled at the heel of the womans seed , and like noysome tares vexed and pestered the good and holy seed , which though the children of God both see , and feel to their payne , yet must they not therefore † forgetting what spirit they are of , presently call for fyre from heaven , nor prevent the Lords hand , but wayt his leasure , eyther for the converting of these tares into wheat , ( which in many is dayly seen ; and thē how great pitty had it been they should so vntimely have been plucked vp : ) or for their finall perdition in the day of the Lord , when the Church shal be no more offended by them . And that the Lord Iesus no way speaks of the toleration of prophane persons in the 〈…〉 Church doth appear by these reasons . First , because ( as hath been observed ) he doth not contradict himself by forbidding the vse of the keyes in one place , which in an other he hath turned vpō impenitent offenders , Mat. 18. 15. 16. 17. 2. In the excommunication of sinners apparantly obstinate , with due circumspection , and in the spirit of wisdome , meeknes , & long suffring , with such other generall Christian vertues , as with which all our speciall sacrifices ought to be seasoned , wha● daunger can there be of any such disorder , as the plucking vp of the wheat with the tares , which the husbandman feareth . vers . 29. Lastly the Lord Iesus speaks of the vtter ruinating & destruction of the tares , the gathering and plucking them vp by the rootes , vers . 28. 29. and to this end they are reserved by the husbandman , v. 30. ( ever presupposed they so continued ) but excommunication rightly administred is not for the ruyne , and destruction of any , but for the salvation of the party thereby humbled . 1 Cor. 5. 5. But , to conclude , admit of Mr B. exposition , & that the field here is the visible Church , the good seed the good , & godly , the tares wicked and vngodly persons , I am contented that the difference in this place betwixt him and me be tryed at the tribunall of this very scripture , even thus expounded , and I doubt not but it will pronounce a cleare sentence on my side in the thing for which I contend : and that is , that the Church in the right gathering of it out of Antichristianism , or Paganisme , out of Babylon , Egypt , Sodome spiritually , or civily so called , or out of any other society or Synagogue , which is not the true visible body of Christ , must be & is constituted and compact of good onely , & not of good & evill . The Lords field is sowen onely with good seed . vers . 24. 27. 38. his * vyne noble , and all the seed true , his Church † saynts and beloved of God all and every one of them , though by the mallice of Satan , and negligence of such as should keep this field , & vineyard , & house of God , adulterate seed , and abominable persons may be foysted in , yea and suffred also , which the scriptures affirm , and we deny not . But our exceptiō in this case is , first that the Church of England was never truely gathered , the Church of England I say , that that is , the National Church , consisting of the Provinciall Churches , and those of the Diocesan Churches , and the Diocesans of the Parochyall Churches , according to their parish precincts , with their governours & government correspondent . That there were true visible Churches in the land gathered out of Paganism at the first , I will not deny , but that ever the whole Land in the body of it was a Church is an affirmatiō of them which consider not what is eyther the matter whereof , or the manner how the Church of the new Testament is to ●e gathered . 2. Graunt that the way of the kingdom of Christ , the Church were now so wyde that a whol nation might walk a brest in it , and that England had been some times that Canaan , the holy land , wherein none vncircumcised person dwelt , yet in the apostasy of Antichrist it could not be so accounted , but was in the body of it divorced frō Christ with Rome , whereof it was a member , except you ( Mr B. ) will affirm ( as many do ) that Rome remaines still a true visible Church , and that antichristianism is true Christianism , Antichristians true Christians , the body which hath the Pope the head , the true body of Christ : & so except the Church of Engl. had been sowen with good seed without tares since that general apostasie , it cannot be the L. field . The Iewes were forbidden by God vnder the law to * sow their field with divers seeds , and will he sow his own feyld with divers , yea with cōtrary seeds , wheat , & tares ? What husbandman is eyther so foolish , or carles , as to sow his field with tares & wheat together ? And yet this fair field of Engl : of whose beauty all the Christian world is enamoured , is so sowen , this pleasant orchyard so plāted , this ●lourishing Ch : so gathered . A few kernels of wheat scattered amōgst the tares here & there , a few good plants amōgst the wilde branches , a smal strinkling of good mē amōgst the great & retchles rowt of wicked & graceles persons . And was this field sowen , this orchard planted , this Church gathered , by the Lords hand ? And as was the root , so are the branches , as were the first fruits , so is the whole lump . To conclude this point , thus I reason . The Lords field is sowen with good seed onely , though tares may in time be conveyed into it by the Divels mallice and mans negligence . But the Engl : nationall Ch : was not so sowen , but with tares & wheat together . Therefore it is not the Lords field . And thus I hope the indifferent reader wil easily see what succour Mr B. findes amōgst those tares , under whose shadow he would so fayne shrowd all the Atheists Papists & other flagitious persons in the Church . Now for the Parable of the draw net , Mat. 13. I confesse the bad fishes may be wicked persons in the Church , but undiscerned , as fishes vnder the water , between which & the good no difference is seen . If the fishers and they that drew the netts did know of the bad fishes in them , and had meanes of voyding them , they would never burden themselves , and the nett with them , ( except you will have as foolish fishermen here , as you had husbandmen before , ) but till they do discern them to be as they are , they must take thē , as they hope they are , though with you all be fish that come to the net , yea good fish too , till the Cōmissaries court judge otherwise . And lastly to your saying , wel it were that all were saints : but that is to look for a heaven vpon earth , I answer that the Church is heaven vpon earth : and if you were not a straunger to the true Church and to such scriptures as speaks of it , you should find as in many other places , so espetially in the Revelation the Church visible oft dignifyed with the name of heaven and with no name oftener . Yea to seek no further then these two parables brought in by you to speak against heaven , that is against the true & natural cōstitutiō , & conservatiō of the visible Church , Christ himself & that with his own mouth gives the Church no worse name then “ heaven , and the kingdom of heavē , & the onely ordinary beaten way which Christ hath left to heaven in heaven , is heaven on earth , which way soever you please to guide men . The sixth insimulation against vs is that we hold . That the power of Christ , that is authority to preach , to administer the sacraments , and to exercise the Censures of the Church , belongeth to the whole Church yea to every one of them , and not to the principall m●bers thereof . If Mr B. were but as able to confute vs by just reason , as he is willing to bring vs into hatred by unjust and odious accusations , we should then have as much cause to feare his skill , as now we have to complayn of his mallice . Onely herein his skill is to be commended , that where he findes not our opinions such as he thinks wil be disliked by the simple multitude , he makes thē such , and so deales against them . Here come in many things of great weight to be discussed : and although it were in it self the readyest way to reduce things to some heads , and so to prosequute them in order , yet since I have taken this task vpon me to trace Mr B. in the particulars , therfore I purpose to follow him step by step , notwithstanding all his vnorderly wandrings and excursions . And first Mr B. charging vs with errour for giving authority to preach , minister the sacraments , excercise the censures to the whole Church , and not to the principall members thereof , playnely insinuates that the authority to do all these things amongst them is in the principall members of the Church . But the truth is otherwise in the parish Church of Worksop , and in all other the parish Churches in the land . You have one onely member that hath power , ( and that vnder the ordinary ) to any of these things , and that your self the parrish Priest , though perhaps the parish clerk may by speciall indulgence be licensed , to bury the dead , Church women , read service on light holy dayes , and do some such like drudgery in your absence . But for the exercising of the censures , that belongs not to the whole body , or to any member thereof principall , or lesse principall , but to the Bishops and his substitute , which are forreyners and strangers as in theyr office from the true Church , so even in theyr persons from yours . All your portion in the censures Mr B. is to do the exequutioners office , when the Officiall hath played the iudge , which if you should be so bold as to refuse , besydes the punishment of your contumacy , the Church doore would do your office , for the bull of excommunication hanged vp there by the sumner byndes the offenders both in heaven & earth . And for the position it self , howsoever we do indeed maynteyne the most of the particulars against which Mr B. intends his refutation , yet as he sets it down , we do vtterly disclayme it with all the errors in it . First for teaching in the Church we do not vse it promiscuously , nor suffer it to be vsed but according to the order ( as we are perswaded ) which Christ and his Apostles have prescribed . And for the sacraments , the contrary to that which you affirme is to be seene of all men in our † confession of fayth , wherein it is held that no sacraments are to be administred vntill Pastors or Teachers be ordayned in theyr office : neyther have we practised otherwise ? And this Mr B. knew , when he writ this book , as well as our selves . Thirdly , touching the censures we do expresly confesse that † the power , as to receive in , so to cut of any member is given to the whole body together of every christian congregation , and not to any one member a p●●t , or to more members sequest●ed from the whole , vsing the m●etest member for the pronouncing the censures . And answerable to our profession is our practise : with what conscience then or credit Mr B : can father vpon vs those bastardly runnaga●es , let God , & men iudge . These things being thus , the vntruthes , which he sayth we build vpon this opinion are his and not ours , as the groundwork is his , so is the whol building raysed from it . But touching interpretation of scripture by private brethren , and pollution by sinn vnreformed in the Church , & separation from it for the same , we shall speak in their places . Onely I desyre it may be observed that rather then Mr B. will forbeare to accuse vs that we hold it lawfull for one person to excommunicate the whole Church , he will back this most odious calumniation with as fond and false an assertion : and that is , that separating from a Church and excommunicating of it is all one in substance , though called lesse odiously . But the contrary is manifested by these two reasons . First excommunication is a sentence judiciall presupposing ever a solemn and superiour power over the party sentenced : but no such thing is inferred vpon separation . 2. Excommunication is onely of them which are * within and of the Church , but separation may be from them without . And I would know of Mr B. whither a person , though never so meane , might not separate from the assemblies of Pagans , Turkes , Iewes , Papists , & other haeretiques , and Idolaters ? I hope he would not draw such a man within his separatists schism : & yet for the same person to excōmunicate such an assembly were a sinful prophanation of Gods ordinance . And though we held ( as we do nothing lesse ) that one man might excommunicate the whole Church , yet were it not more ( as you affirm ) then your Church allowes to any Bp. in Engl. no nor so much by a thousād parts : for one Bishop with you may excommunicate a thousand Churches : every Diocesan Bishop all the Churches in his Dioces , the two Provincial Bishops theyr two Provinces , so livelyly do the reverend fathers the Bishops resemble the holy father the Pope , which may judge all men , but be judged by none . The next collection made agaynst us is that we hould that two or three gathered together must be a Church which hath the whole power of Christ , and may presētly make them officers & vse the discipline of Christ. No such hast Mr B. of making officers presently : we make no dumb Ministers : neyther dare we admit of any man eyther for a teaching or governing Elder , of whose ability in prayer , prophecying , & debating of Church matters we have not had good experience , before he be so much as nominated to the office of an Elder amōgst vs : remēbring alwayes the deep charge of the Apostle to † lay hands suddeynly on man , nor to be partakers of other mens sums . But this we hold and affirm that a company consisting though but of two or three separated from the world whither vnchristian , or antichristian , and gathered into the name of Christ by a covenant made to walk in all the wayes of God knowen vnto them , is a Church , and so hath the whole power of Christ. And for the clearing of this truth I will propound , and so prove by the scriptures these two heads . 1. First that a company of faithfull people thus covenanting together are a Church , though they be without any officers amōg them , cōntrary to that your Popish opiniō here insinuated , & els where expressed , that a company is no where in all the new testament called a Church ( Christian familyes excepted ) but when they have theyr officers , and that otherwise they are called beleevers , Disciples , but not a Church but onely by anticipation as heaven and earth are so called before they were Gen. ● . 1. & that the officers give thē the denominatiō of a Church . 2. That this company being a Church hath interest in all the holy things of Christ within & amongst thēselves immediately vnder him the head , without any forreyn ayd , & assistance . Of which holy things in particular we shall consider as they come in our way . These two grounds ( by the grace of God ) I will prove in order : and for the confirmation of the former take these reasons . The first is gathered from the authours owne words , that a cōpany of holy persons ( without officers ) are called beleevers , disciples , but not a Church which is all one , as if he sayd , that a Church is not called a Church , for the word Church , is no more then a cōpany or † assembly howsoever gathered together : and so a set company of visible beleevers must needs be a constituted visible Church : and to manifest the vanity of that distinction , that one place shall serue Act. 11. 26. where in the same verse the same persons ▪ are called the Church , Disciples , and Christians . Two or three or more people making Peters confession , Math. 16. are the Church . But two or three or more may make this confession without officers . Therefore such a company is a Ch : The former proposition is evident by that promise Christ made * to build his Church vpon the rock of Peters confession . The second , namely that men without officers may professe their faith is without question , except we will hold that without officers no men can be saved , Rom. 10. 10. Thirdly , if the new Testament speak of ordeyning Elders in the Church , then doth it necessarily conclude yea expresly affirm , that there were Churches before Elders were ordeyned in them . But the first is manifest Act. 14. 23. therefore the second . Neyther can Mr B●shift of the place by saying such assemblyes are called Churches by Anticipation , any more then the Papists can the scripture , 1 Cor 11. 26. against transubstantiation , by alledging that the Apostle speaks by Posticipation . For why may not the Papists as well answer that Paul calles Christs body bread , not because it is bread , but because it was bread before the words of consecration , as Mr B : that Luke calls the assemblyes without officers Churches , not because they were so , but were so to be after the Elders were ordeyned amongst them , neyther is it true which you affirme for confirmation of your distinction , that heaven and earth were so called before they were , Gen. 1. 1. the meaning of Moses onely is , that God created heaven and earth first , and when before they were not . If yet it be further answered by any , that the Church Act. 14. had Apostles over them , it must be remembred , that Luke in that place and action of ordination notes out three distinct orders of people , the Apostles ordeyning Elders , the Elders ordeyned , and the Churches in which the Apostles ordeyned Elders . Of the same nature is the fourth Argument grounded vpon 1 Cor. 12. 28. where God is sayd to have appointed or set in the Church Apostles , Prophets , Teachers , necessarily implying a Church before , wherein they were appointed : as a Sheriffe appointed in a shyre , a Maior in a City , a Constable in a Parish , a Steward in a familie do necessarily presuppose the Shyre , City , Parrish , Familie , wherein they are appointed . And indeed where should the Lord set his stewards but in his familie ? Is any societie capable of the Lords officers but his corporation ? Is not the Eldership an ordinance given to the Church ? & so the Elders called the “ Elders of the Church . In the Church is not an ordinance given to the Elders , nor ever called their Church in the whole New Testament . Fifthly they with whom the Lord makes his Covenant to be their God , and to have them his people , to dwel amongst them as in his temple , which have right to the promises of Christ , and to his presence , they are the Church of God , & of Christ. Gen. 17. 7. Lev. 26. 11. 12. Mat. 18. 17. 20. Apoc. 1. 11. 13. Heb. 8. 16. But a company of faythful people , though they have no officers amongst them , may be received into Covenant with God , may be his temple , and have him dwell amongst them , may have right to Christ and to his promises , & presence , except we wil say they may not be gathered in Christs name , may not be called , may not come out from among unbeleevers nor separate themselves & touch none unclean thing . Mat. 18. 17. 20. Act. 2. 39. 2 Cor. 6. 16. 17. except they have Ministers going before them . For they that may † separate themselves from unbeleevers may be the temple of God , that is the true visible church , which the temple typed out . Men are not to come out of Babylon , and there to stand stil , & remember the Lord a farr of , but must resort to the place where he hath put his name , for which they need not go eyther to Ierusalem , or to Rome , or beyond the seas , they may find Siòn the Lords mountain prepared on the top of every hil . If they as lively stones couple themselves together by voluntary * profession & covenant , they are a spirituall building , the Lords Temple . 6. If a company of faythful people without officers be not a Church , then if all the officers of a Church should dye or fall away the Church should be nullified , and become no church : and to come nearer home ( graunting for a while the parish of Worksop to be a company of faythfull people ) if Mr Bernard should leave his Vicaridge for a better , then the church of Worksop should be dischurched , and remayne a Church no longer : and thus an assembly might be Churched and vnchurched , and Churched agayn every week in the time of persecution or plague , by having and loosing , and recovering againe her officers : and thus the officers should not be the eyes or tongue of the body , for the body remaynes a true ( though an imperfect ) body without them , but the head of it : yea the Pope though he hold himself the head of the Church , yet acknowledgeth it a Church without him , and in the time of vacancy . Wee read , Rev. 2. 5. that the Lord threatens to remove the candlestick from the Ephesians except they amend . Now the candlestick is the Church , chap. 1. 20. and to remove the candlestick is to dischurch the assembly , or to wipe it out of the beadrowl of Churches . Here is sin the discharging an assembly , but that the death of the officers should do it , is no where found . We will acknowledge the Ministers to be the † lights , starres , & candles in the the candlestick the Church , & that the Ministers death or fall is the removing of the light in a great measure , but we may not graunt them to be the Candlestick : that is the Church , wherein they are set , as 1 Cor. 12. 28. which may stand still though they fall . 7. If a company of Saynts , where no officers are , be not a true visible Church , then may they have no visible communion together eyther publick , or private ; the reason is , because the communion of saynts is an effect , or property of the Church , and the Church a cause of it : the invisible Church of invisible communion , and the visible Church of visible communion . And as we can have no fellowship with Christ in his merits , and other works of mediation , till we be in our persons ioyned vnto him by faith , and grafted in him , as the * braunches in the vine : so neither can we have communiō one with another in any spirituall grace , or work , till we be vnited one to another in love , as the members of the body vnder the head . Communion in works whether naturall , civil , or religious , doth necessarily presuppose vnion of persons . Yea if such a company be not a Church , I see not how their seed can have right to baptism , no nor how their own baptism cā be accounted true in the right ends , & vses of it . For 1. baptism is within , and not without the Church : Ephe. 4. 4. 5. Secondly , it is the seal of the covenant ( which is the form of the Church ) to the faithfull , and their seed , Act. 2. 38. 39. Thirdly , it is of the members into the body of Christ , 1 Cor. 12. 12. 13. Lastly where the essentiall causes of a Church are to be found , viz. matter and form , there is a Church . But this may be in such assemblies as have no officers , ergo . The former proposition is evident in it self , for the essentiall causes give being vnto the th 〈…〉 and it ha●h the being from them . The 2. I gather from Mr B. own graunt , where treating of the causes and properties of the Church , he makes the † true matter such as professe Christ Iesus their onely saviour : and the * form to be the vniting of men to God , and one to another visibly . Now except he will say ( which God forbid ) that none may make profession of faith , and be vnited to Christ without officers , he cannot deny but there may be , ( and so be called ) a Church without them . For all vnited vnto Christ the head , are members of the body , which is the Ch : and so the whol assembly ioyntly considered is an whole and entyre body and Church . So that to deny an ordinary assembly or communion of Christians to be a Christian Church , is an vnchristian opinion . And here I entreat the indifferent reader to consider whether these mens wayes be equall , or no. When we deny their assemblies to be true visible Churches , though they consist for the most part of prophane , and vngodly persons , vnder the government of a Provinciall , or Diocesan Bishop , and the Ministery of a dumb or prophane Preist , as the most do , ( to which also the best is subiect within one moneth ) they complayn of vs , as most injurious detracters , and yet will not they acknowledge any assembly of faithful & holy people onely ( if vnfurnished for a time of officers ) to be a true Church , or capable of that denomination . But let not the harts of Gods servants be discouraged , he is no accepter of mens persons , he hath not tyed his power and presence to any order , or office in the world , but accepted of them that feare him , and work righteousnes , hating the assemblyes of the wicked , and all their sacrifices . Vpon this point I haue insisted the longer , partly because it is the ground of the other truthes to be handled in their places , and partly in detestation of the vnsufferable pryde of this Prelacy , and Preisthood , which will have the very life of all Churches to hang on the breath of their nostrels , yea ( I may safely say ) on their lusts ; if they dy yea or forsake their charges in never so fleshly respects their Churches are dissolved , at least during the vacancy , and so the brethren dismembred from being of the visible body of Christ. But so far are the officers from being the formall cause of the Church ( as is intended ) as they are in truth no absolutely necessary appurtenance vnto it . The power indeed to enioy them is an essentiall property seated in the body which may braunch out it self ( as God gives fit means ) into officers accordingly , which if they prove unfruitful , it may also accordingly lop , or break off . And so farr is the Holy Ghost from giving countenance to this opinion , that the Officers make the Church , as when he speakes distinctly of the body , and officers , and considers them severally , he calls the body the Church , excluding the Elders , as appeares in these , amongst many o●her scriptures . Act. 14. 23. & 15. 4. and 20. 17. 28. 1 Tim. 3. 5. 15. And the reason is , because the Church is essentially in the saincts , as the matter , subject , formed by the cover●ant , unto which the officers are but adjuncts , not making for the being , but for the welbeing of the Church , and furtherance of her fayth , by their service . The second poynt now comes to be manifested , which is that two or three faythful persons joyned unto the Lord in the fellowship of the Gospel , have immediate interest to Christ in all his ordinances . Now least any should stumble at these words , two or three ioyned or gathered together ( as it seems Mr. B. would hereby take advantage to discountenance so small a number ) it must be cōsidered , that two or three thus gathered together have the same right with two or three hundred . Neyther the smallnes of the number , nor meannes of the persons can prejudice their right . When the Lord did chose one nation from all other nations , he chose the smallest amongst them , † fewest in number . And though now Christ have opened a way for all nations , yet is it a * narrow way and which few finde , especially in the first planting or replanting of Churches , of which Christ speaks most properly : in which regard also he likens the “ the kingdome of heaven , or Church , to a grain of mustard-feed which is the least of all seeds , but yet hath vertue in it to bring forth a tree , in whose boughes the birds of heaven may build their nests . And against this exception of discouragement Christ himself hath provided a cōfortable remedie , in speaking expresly of two or three to whom he hath given his power , and promised his presence . Now , for the poynt it self : the truth whereof is sufficiently manifested by that which hath been ●ormerly layed down . If a company of faythfull people ( though without officers be the true Ch. and body of Christ , and Israel of God , then to that company apperteynes the covenants of promise , the oracles of God are committed untothem , and to them are given his word , statutes and iudgments : & so they may freely enjoy them amongst themselves in the order by Christ prescribed , without any forreyn Ministers , for Mediators . II. They that have received Christ have received the power of Christ , and his whole power , for Christ and his power are not devided , nor one part of his power from another . But every company or communion of faythful people have received Christ. Ioh. 1 , 12. Rom. 8. 32. Isa. 9. 6. and with him power and right to enjoy him , ( though all the world be against it ) in al the meanes , by which he doth communicate himself unto hi● Church . III. When the Scriptures would give us to understand the near union betwixt Christ , and his Church , and the free and full title which he hath given her in himself , and all his most rich and pretious benefits , they do teach the same by resemblances of most streight and immediate conjunction , as of that between the * vine and the branches , “ the head and the body , † the husband and the wise , and so as the branches do receive and draw the sap and juice immediately from the vine , and as the body receiveth sense and motion from the head immediately , and as the wife hath immediate right to , and interest in her husbands both person and goods , for her use , though she may and ought to use the service of her husbands and own servants ( as they can be had ) for convenient purposes , so hath every true visible Church of Christ direct , ●nd immediate interest in , and title to Christ himselfe , and the whole new Testament , & every ordinance of it , without any vnnaturall , monstrous , and adulterous interposition by any person whatsoever , betwixt the vyne and the branches , the head and the body , the husband & the wife : which are Christ , and his Church , though but two or three gathered together in his name , as hath formerly been manifested . If all things be the Churches , even the ministers themselves , ye● though they be Paul , Cephas , and Apollos , and the Church Christs , & Christ Gods , then may the Church vse and enjoy all things immediately vnder Christ , and needs not goe to Rome to fetch her power , whether Mr B. would send her , but may have and enioy the Ministers and ministrations ( as her own ) of all the holy things which are given her . But the first the Apostles expresly affirmes 2 Cor. 3. 21. 22. 23. and so the conclusion necessarily followeth ; which will also be more manifest in the particulars as they come to be handled in theyr places , as occasion shal be ministred by Mr B. reasons layd down against popularty as he termes it , which in the next place come to be considered of . The first and second whereof are , that it is contrary to the order which God established before the law , vnder the law , and since Christ , or in the Apostles dayes ; during all which tymes , he affirmes , that the power of governing was in the cheif ; in the first born before the law , in the Levites vnder the law , and in the Apostles in their dayes . And for confirmatiō of these things , he brings sundry scriptures from the old & new Testament , & for the exposition of them , & clearing of his aslertion , intermingles sundry other observations . For entrance into the answer of which his refutation , I desire it may be considred , that the visible Church being a polity Ecclesiasticall , and the perfection of all polities , doth comprehend in it whatsoever is excellent in all other bodyes politicall , as man being the perfection of all creatures , comprehends in his nature , what is excellent in them all : having being with the Elements , life with the plants , sense with the beasts , and with the angels reason . Now wise men having written of this subiect , have approved as good , and lawfull , three kyndes of polities , Monarchycall , where supreme authority is in the hands of one , Aristocraticall when it is in the hands of some few select persons , and Democraticall in the whole body , or multitude . And all these three formes have their places in the Church of Christ. In respect of him the head , it is a monarchy , in respect of the Eldership an Aristocracy , in respect of the body , a popular state . The Lord Iesus is the King of his Church alone , † vpon whose shoulders the government is , and vnto whome all power is given in heaven & earth , yet hath he not received this power for himself alone , but doth communicate the same with his Church as the husband with the wife . And as he is * announted by God with the oyl of gladnes above his fellowes , so doth he communicate this a●noynting with his body , 2 Cor. 1. 21. 1 Ioh. 2. 20. Gal. 2. 9. 10. which being powred by the Father vpon him the head runneth downe to the skirts of the clothing , perfuming with the sweetnes of the savour every member of the body and so makes every one of them severrally “ Kings and Preists and all ioyntly a † Kingly Preisthood , or communion of Kinges , Preists , and Prophets . And in this holy fellowship by vertue of this plenteous annoyntment , every one is made a King , Preist , and Prophet , not onely to himself but to every other , yea to the whole . A Prophet to teach , exhort , reprove , & comfort himself & the rest , a Preist to offer vp spirituall sacrifices of prayer , prayses , & thanksgiving for himselfe and the rest , a King to guide and govern in the wayes of godlynes himselfe , and the rest . But all these alwayes in that order , & according to those speciall determinations , which the Lord Iesus the King of Kings hath prescribed . And as there is not the meanest member of the body but hath received his drop or dram of this ānoynting , so is not the same to be despised eyther by any other or by the whole : to which it is of vse dayly in some of the things before set downe , and may be in all , or at least in the most of them . So that not onely * the ey ( a speciall member ) cannot say to the hand ( a speciall member ) I have no need of thee : but not the head ( the principall member of all ) vnto the feet , the meanest members I have no need of you . And yet as if a multitude of Kinges should assemble together to advise & consult of their cōmon affaires some one , or few must needs be appointed over the assēbly both for order & speciall assistance of the whole , which should go before the rest in propounding , discussing , and determining of all matters , so in this royall assembly , the Church of Christ , though al be kings , yet some both most faythful and most able , are to be set over the rest , & that in office , ( not kingly but ministeriall ) because the assembly is constant , wherein they are both deeply charged , & effectually encouraged to Minister according to the Testament of Christ , and that not † onely for comlynes and order as Mr B : slaundereth vs to hould , but for the proffit , aedification , yea and salvation of the Church . 2 Cor. 1 24. Eph : 4. 11. 12. 13. 1 Tim. 4. 16 by the ministration of such holy things as to the Church appertayne by the free , absolute , and immediate donation of Christ. This praemised , I come to Mr B. reasons and refutation . And first I do freely acknowledge the thing , which he would charge vs to deny , and seeme to prove by many scriptures : and that is that the government of the Church before the law , vnder the law , & in the Apostles tymes , was ( and so still is ) not in the multitude but in the cheife . In the first born before the law , in the Levites vnder the law , in the Apostles in their tymes , and so in the ordinary officers of the Church ever since , and that the Lord Iesus hath given to his Church a Presbytery , or Colledge of * Elders or Bishops for the feeding of the s●me , that is , for the ●eaching , and governing of the whole flock according to his will : and these the multitude ioyntly and severally is bound to “ obey all and every one of them , submiting themselves vnto their government in the Lord. And this it never came into our harts to deny . Cease then Mr B. to suggest against vs unto such as are ignorant of our faith , & walking , that we deny the Officers to be the governours of the Church or the people to be governed by them . But this I desire the reader here to take knowledge of , and ever hereafter to beare in minde , that it is one thing for the officers to govern the Church ( which we graunt ) and another thing for them to be the Church , which Mr B. in expounding Math : 18. would needs make them ; where he would have the officers alone to admonish , and censure . As if because the † watchman is set vp to blow the trumpet and to warne the people , when the sword commeth , that therefore he alone is the City , or Land , and bound alone to make resistance . The officers of the Church are to govern every action , of the Church , and exercise of the communion : are they therefore alone to do al things ? They ( if there be any of them in the Church ) are to govern in every election and choyce of ensuing Officers , are they therefore , alone to chuse ▪ excluding the Church ? They are to govern in preaching , prophesying , and hearing the word , and receiving the sacraments , singing of Psalmes , distributing vnto the necessities of the sayncts , are they therefore alone to prophesie , to sing Psalmes , to contribute to the poor & the rest , with as little reason can it be affirmed , that they alone are to have cōmunion in the censures , to admonish , & judge , because they are to govern in the carying & administring of those matters . These things thus cleared , it wil be very convenient for the purpose in hand , and wil give much furtherance to the truth , in a few words to consider of the nature of Ecclesiastical government , and governours , which whilst politik men through either ignorance , or contempt of the gospels simplicitie , do neglect , they labour to transform the Church into a wordly kingdome , and to set over it a kinde of kingly and lordly government : and such scriptures as give libertie and power unto kings , and other civile officers over their subjects , and people , for the making and altering of lawes , and for the passing , and ordering of judgements , these they pervert and misapply to Church governours and government : then which nothing is more monstrous . Math. 20. 25. 26. 27. 28. 1 Pet. 5. 3. I. For first civil officers are & are called in the word of God † Princes , Heads , Captaines , Iudges , Magistrates , Nobles , Lords , Kinges , them in authority , principalities , powers , yea in their respect , Gods : and according to their names so are their offices : but on the contrarie , Ecclesiasticall officers are not capable of these , or the like titles which can neyther be given without flatterie unto them , nor received by them without arrogancy : neyther is their office an office of Lordship , Sovereigntie , or Authoritie , but of * Labour and Service , and so they the “ Labourers and Servants of the Church , as of God. 2. Magistrates may publish & execute their owne lawes in their own names , Ezra . 1. 1. 2. &c. Est. 8. 8. Math. 20. 25. But Ministers are onely interpreters of the lawes of God , and must look for no further respect , at the hands of any to the things they speak , then as they manifest the same to be the commaundements of the Lord. 1 Cor. 14. 37. 3. Civill administrations , and their formes of goverment may be , and oft tymes are altered , for the avoyding of inconveniences , according to the circumstances of tyme , place , and persons , Ex. 1● . 13. 14. 15. 16. 17. &c. But the Church is a kingdome which cannot be shaken , Heb. 12. 28. wherein may be no innovation in office , or forme of administration from that which Christ hath left ▪ for any inconveniency whatsoever . 4 Civill Magistrates have authority by their offices to judge offēders , vpon whom they may also exequute bodily vengeance , vsing their people as their servants , and ministers for the same purpose ; but in the Ch : the officers are the ministers of the people , whose service the people is to vse for the administring , and executing of their judgemēts , that is for the pronouncing of the judgments of the Church ( & of God first ) against the obstinate , which is the vtmost execution the Church can perform . And what difference can be greater ? In the cōmon wealth the people fewer or more ( yea somtimes whol armies ) the ministers of the officers : in the Church , the officers the ministers of the people . 5. In civill government obedience must be performed for the authority and will of the commaunder , who is Lord over the bodyes and goods of his subjects . Mat. 20. 25. 26. 1 Pet. 5. 3. yea though his commaundements being with them bodily domage , yea be they never so vnjust , & vnholy yet must obedience be given in meek and pacient sufferance , though not in active performance . ● Pet. 2. 13. 14. & 3. 14. 15. 16. but in Church matters not so . The officers may neyther exact obedience , nor the people perform it further then the goodnes , profit , and aedification of and by the thing commaunded doth enforce , 1 Cor. 14. 26. Gal. 1. ● . Col. 2. 16. 1● . And the reason is because civil Magistrates have authority annexed to their office , and order , and though both they , and their commaundements be most vnjust yet do they still reteyn their authority , which their subjects may not shake of : but ministers and Church governers have no such authority tyed to their office , but merely to the word of God. And as the peoples obedience stands not in making the Elders their Lords , Soveraignes & , Iudges , but in listening to their godly counsels , in following theyr wise directions , in receiving their holy instructions , exhortations , consolations , and admonitions , and in vsing their faithful service and ministery , so neyther stands the Elders govermēt in erecting any tribunall seat , or throne of judgement over the people , but in exhorting , instructing , comforting & improving them by the word of God , 1 Tim. 3. 16. & in affoarding the Lord and them their best service . But here it wil be demaunded of me , if the Elders be not set over the Church for her guidance , and government ; Yes certaynly , as the physition is set over the body , for his skill , and faithfulnes to minister vnto it , to whom the pacient ( yea though his Lord , or Maister ) is to submit : the lawyer over his cause , to attend vnto it ; the steward over his family , even his wife and children , to make provision for them : yea the wachmen over the whole city for the safe keeping thereof . Such , and none other is the Elders , or Bishops government . Now to conclude this point . All the scriptures which Mr B. brings ( as the reader may see ) serves to prove that the governers of the Church , must be in , and of the Church they govern : but the governers of the Church of Worxsop , are not of it , neyther would Mr B. I dare say , be well pleased they should . But where it is further affirmed , that during all the Apostles dayes , the body of the congregation attempted nothing of themselves , but that alwayes Church matters were begun , governed , and composed by the Apostle● , as it made nothing against our matter , though it were even so , as is sayd , since w● hold that where there are officers in the Churches , & those faithfull in all things , as th' Apostles were , there things are not to be attempted without them , so is it not true which is affirmed , neyther do the scriptures alledged prove any such thing . The three first places , Act. 1. 15. 23. 24. 25. and 6. 3. 6. and 14. 19. 20. 23. do onely prove that the Apostles being general men , & officers of all Churches , did when they were present with the Churches govern and assist them faythfully in all things , which we also affirm to be the duty of al Elders in their particular charges , whom the people are accordingly to obey . More particularly . The two former places speak of the Church at Ierusalem , where some of the Apostles were ever present : what marveil then if the congregation attempted nothing without them ? But touching the last scripture which speakes of the Churches of and amongst the Gentiles , and of the ordination of Elders there , Act. 14. 23. the case is otherwise . Of these Churches some were converted to the Lord by the Apostles , and other by private brethren scattered thither , & there publishing the Gospel . Act. 8. 12. & 10. 36-44 . 47. 48. & 11. 19. 20. 21. 23. & 13. 2. 12. 48. & 14. 1. 2. & that some certaine yeares before any ordination of Elders amongst them . And can it be conceived with any reason , that all this long space , during the Apostles absence , these Churches never assembled together for their edification and comfort , in prayer , prophesying ▪ and other ordinances ? were there no other cōverted al the while which desyred to be admitted into their fellowship ? or had they no use of excommunication for the preserving pure of their communion for sundry yeares ? But to let passe these more generall things and to come to the speciall busines mentioned : Act. 14 , 23. The same rules which were after left in writing to Timothy and Titus for the choyce of Bishops , or Elders were then in use amongst the Churches : & amongst other qualifications , it was required of them that they should be † apt to teach , * able to convince , as also to manage the publique affaires of the Churches , which were to depend on them , whither in cases of controversie , or otherwise , and such they both then were , and now are by good tryal and experience to be known to be : and those also no young plants for such fruits . And as it did most specially concern the brethren to know certainly , & by good experience that those officers were so qualified , whom they were to set over them , and unto whom they were to cōmit their soules to be fed unto life eternal , so could they onely take sufficient tryall of them , their gifts , and faythfulnes for the publique ministery by due experience . The Apostles came , but occasionally to visit the Churches , and to comfort them , making ( in many very small or no continuance ) and fynding fit men for officers in the Churches where they came , and the same known , testified and commended to be such by the peoples election , they ordeyned Bishops or Elders over them , and so departed . Act. 14. 21. 22. 23. And what reason can be given , why the Apostles did not at the first planting of the Churches , but so long a space after , ordeyn officers , ( as also that Paul did not perform that busines himself in Creta , but left Titus the Evangelist for that purpose , Tit. 1. 5. ) save onely that men of gifts might be trayned vp in prayer , prophecying , and carrying of such other Church affaires as fell out , and so due tryall made of theyr gifts , & good knowledg taken of their faythfulnes in and by the Churches whereof they were , and over which they were to be set , being found fit for that service ? Now the fourth scripture which is , 1 Cor. 5. doth directly oppose that for which it is brought . It was the Churches fault not to have purged out that sower leven , the incestuous person before they eyther heard from Paul , or he of that evill amongst them : and for theyr negligence herein the Apostle reproveth them , as all men see that are not willingly blynd . And for Paul he in generall as a penman of the Holy Ghost wrote scriptures for the direction of the Corinthians and all other Churches to the worldes end , and in speciall , as a chief Officer of that Church by † determining for himself discharged his owne duety : but did neyther begin , govern , nor compose the action : being at Philippi ▪ or rather at Ephesus for the present , from whence he writ the Epistle to the Church , vnto which he commended the busines in hand , both for the beginning , and ending of it . But what of all these , and many other the like scriptures to be alledged ? because the Churches are in all things to be guided by theyr officers ministring faythfully , and according to the word of God , and theyr duety , that therefore if eyther there be no officers , or if they be absent , or fayl in their duety , the Church may do nothing eyther for information , or reformation ? The scriptures record , that after Stevens death * all the Church a● Ierusalem was dispersed save the Apostles , and that they which were dispersed went to and fro , preaching the word , the effect of whose preaching amongst the Gentiles was † the fayth and conversion of a great number vnto the Lord. Here were not onely Church matters but even Churches begun , preaching to and fro , turning and ioyning of multitudes to the Lord , & that where neyther Apostles no● other officers were present , for this is too grosse to affirm that during al the Apostles dayes nothing was begun but by them . And what if the Lord should now rayse vp a company of faythfull men and women in Barbary , or America , by the reading of the scriptures , or by the wrytings , conferences , or sufferings of some godly men , must they not separate themselves from the filthines of the heathen to the Lord ? nor turn from Idols to the true God ? nor ioyne themselves vnto him in the fellowship of the gospell ? nor have any communion together for theyr mutuall aedification , and comfort , till some vagrant Preist from Rome or England be sent vnto them to begin theyr Church matters with his service book ? And yet this would not serve the turne neyther , for he would be vnto them a barbarian , and they barbarians vnto him , 1 Cor. 14. 11. Some yeares must be spent or ech could vnderstand others language . Nay if this were a true ground , that Church matters might not be begun without officers , it were impossible that such a people should ever eyther enioy officers , or become a Church , yea I may safely ad , that ever there should be in the world after the vniversal visible apostacy of Antichrist , any true eyther Church , or officers ; and so we must hold with the Arians , that except ther should come new Apostles to gather the Churches , and so a new Christ to call those Apostles , that there can be to the worlds end neyther true Churches nor true officers . The reason is , because * no man takes this honour vnto himself , but he that is called of God a● Aaron : Now God calls no man ordinarily but by the Ch : , ( for I suppose you will not deny but that the choyce of officers is a Ch : matter & not a matter of the world . ) And the Church must chuse none but such as of whose knowledge , zeale , and vtterance they have taken tryall by the exercise of his guif●s , as you truely affirme els where in “ this book , and you will not say but this exercise of his guift● after this manner and for this end is a Church matter . Whence it followeth , that both Church matters , yea and Churches also may and in cases must be begun without officers . Yea even where officers are , if they fayl in theyr duetyes , the people may enterprise matters needfull , howsoever you will have the minister the onely primum movens , and will ty all to his fingers . And to let passe the godly Kings of Iudah which were no Church officers ( about whom the question is ) which sundry tymes set the Preists a work , & other with them in Church matters , as 2. Chro. 17. 7. 8. 9. and 29. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. &c. and other instances in the old Testament , which in the handling of the particulars will fall into consideration , † Peter himselfe was called by such as were no Apostles or other officers , to render a reason of his going into men vncircumcised , which he also did to Gods glory , and the Churches satisfaction , v. 18. Now how soever they which so contended with him erred in the matter , and it is like , dealt too contumeliously with him in the manner , yet had it been simply vnlawfull for them to have propounded , and begun a matter of that kynde , Peter would have reproved and broken off theyr disorderly course , and not have pertaken with them in their sinne by vndertaking the answer of the matter , which in the generall he doth approve , by his orderly , and satisfactory answer . Furthermore , where the Lord Iesus , Math. 18. 19. directs a brother in case , & order , to tell the Church of his brothers offence , what can be more playne then that he enioynes a private brother to begin a Church matter ? Yea though there be Elders in the Church , yea though the Elders alone , yea the chief of them onely ( as Mr Bernard would have it ) be the Church , yet must the matter be brought to , and begun in the Church by him that is offended , and his witnesses . To presse this yet a little further : if any puliquely scandalous , or notorious sin be committed in the Church by a brother , and the Elders neglect all means of redressing it , ye● put the case the Elders themselves be in the transgression , and by name , that they preach haeresy , or both preach and practise notorious Idolatry , and that the body of the Church also be corrupted by them , and joyn hands with them in their mischief , what now must a private brother doe in this case , whose heart the Lord establisheth in the truth , and whom he plucks as a brand out of the fyre ? must he goe on , and ioyn with that Idolatrous assembly in theyr wickednes ? God forbid . And leave them he may not till he have dealt with them about this Church matter , and convinced them of this Church sinn : for if Christ would not have a brother cast of his brother til he have dealt with him , nor the whole Church to cast of a private member , till he refuse to hear it , Math. 18. much lesse will he have one brother to forsake all the brethren , and officers also , or a private member to disclaym the whole Church till he have by the best meanes he can affoard in himself , or procure otherwise , and after the best manner , convinced , admonished and exhorted both the Officers and people , and so found them obstinate and irreclamable . To proceed . The Apostle Paul writes to the Church at Rome , to * observe such as caused divisions , and scandalls , contrary to the doctrine they had learned , and to avoid them : and to the Church at Corinth , to † deliver to Sathan , or excommunicate the incestuous person , & agayn that vpon his repentance , they “ would forgive him , and confirme their love towards him , and agayn to the same Church , that they would have ready their * collection for the saints at Hierusalem and gather it on the Lords day , desiring further that they might abound in that grace , as in faith , love , and the like : to the Colossians that they should † say to Archippus look to thy ministery which thou hast received of the Lord , that thou fulfill it : so writes Iohn to the Church at Pergamus that they should not suffer the Bala●mites and Nicholaitans to teach and to deceive , as they did : † and to the Church of Thyatira likewise not to suffer the woman Iezabell calling her self a Prophetesse to deceive Gods servants . Now it seems by Mr BERNARDS doctrine that if the officers withdraw in these things , and will not endeavour the reformation of them ( or if they dy or fall away ) that the silly multitude must beare all evill , and forbeare all good ; they must not mark and avoyd haereitcall and schismaticall whether teachers or others , they must not put out the old leven , that they may become a new lump : nor confirme theyr love to any penitent person , or forgive him , though his repentance be never so ful or publique : nor make any collection in the Church for theyr brethren the saynts , nor have any part in that grace : nor put their Minister in mynd of his office that he fulfill it : nor medle with false Prophets for theyr conviction or restrayn● , but may suffer them to deceive without gaynsaying ; these are all Church matters , Apostles onely , and Apostolick men must medle in them , both to begin and end them . And thus the Ch : without the officers help ( though it cānot possibly be had ) as a deaf , a dūb , a blynd , a lame , yea a liveles & senseles body : it must both have the eyes put out , and the eares stopt , and neyther see nor hear , it must be tongue-tyed from speaking , & fast bound hand and foot from doing any thing for the generall , and joynt good , yea it must not be saved without the officers , for other ordinary way of salvation know I none by the revealed will of God in his word , but in the vse of the ordinances , which Christ hath given vnto his Church . ¶ It is the stewards duety to make provision for the family , but what if he neglects this duety in the maysters absence ? must the whole family starve , yea and the wife also ? or is not some other of the family best able , to be imployed for the present necessity ? It is the Pilottes office to guide the ship , but what if he ignorantly , or negligently , or desperately will run the same vpon the rocks , or sands , must the rest of the mariners forbeare to intermedle , and so perish ? It is the Captaines office to lead the army , but what if he or they perfidiously will betray the same into the hands of the enemy , may not the body of the army make the best head they can to defend themselves , and to offend their enemies , vsing the best meanes they have for their present direction ? Yea even in the most peaceable & best governed cōmon-wealthes , a private man may in a case of necessity become a Magistrate for a mayne work , and that which ordinarily is the Magistrates peculiar . The Lord hath given † the sword into his hand for the good of him that doth well , & to take vengeance on him that doth evill , and to him it apper teynes to defend the innocent . But if this innocent person be assaulted by a theif , murtherer or other enemy , when the Magistrate is absent , that should defend him , God puts the sword into his hand , and he may as lawfully vse it now , as wear it before , & rather kill then be killed . So may the Church as the wife of Christ , if the steward the minister neglect the provision , vse the help , and service of an other the fittest in the family to provide food ; the multitude , as the mariners , if the minister the Pylot be desperate , set an other the most skilfull at the stern : the body of the army the Church , if the officers as the Captaynes be perfidious , vse the help and guidance of some other the most expert : so may , as a private citizē a magistrate , a private member become a minister , for an action of necessity to be performed , by the consent of the rest . These first things even nature , and the light of it teacheth the natural man , the latter , grace , & the spirit of grace the spirituall man. Of these things the more largely I haue spoken in the generall , I may be the breifer in the particulars . Onely for conclusion I must demaund of Mr B. this question : if Church matters be to be performed onely by ministers , why his Sexton being no minister reads divine service in his absence , and that by authority from the Ordinary . If this be not a Church matter , and that materiall , there is small Church matter in the most Churches in the land . Now the last thing I have to observe touching this first reason is , that so far as the authour speaks the truth in it , so far he speaks most playnly against himself . In that he graunts ( as he doth pag. 90. 91. ) the people under the law aright from the Lord , to approve of the appointment of the Levites , and that the body of the congregation were made acquainted with that which concerned them , yea and had liberty to chuse their officers , and to present them to the Apostles , therein he overthrowes both his own , and all other the ministeries in England , as by the lawes both civil and ecclesiasticall they are constituted . For the law ( with you Mr B. ) allowes not onely Ministers ordeyned at large , without any certeyn congregations , but entitles them also to their speciall cures , without so much as the peoples knowledge : many parishes never seing the faces of their ministers till they come to ring their belles in signe of victory : much lesse doth the law provide , they should be approved , least of all that they should be chosen , and presented by them . As the truth you speak in this place makes against you , so had you spoken more fully , you had brought more cleare testimony against yourself , you do therefore take vp yourself in time , and mingle some vntruthes amōg ▪ like darknes with light , least the light should shine too clearely in the eyes of the reader . Where you then affirm that the people did onely approve of the Levites at the Lords appointment when they took their charge , Numb . 3. 6 ▪ 12. Lev. 8. 2. 36. & that the body of the congregation was onely made acquainted with the choice of Mathyas , Act. 1. 15. you speak vnfaithfully : but where you adde , that onely the liberty was graunted them by the Apostles then to chuse Officers &c. it is both false and fond . False as the former , for the Levites were not onely approved by the people , but given by them : they were the the peoples gift , and therefore their 's ( for they gave nothing but their owne ) and by them given to minister vnto the Lord in stead of the first borne , Exod. 13. 2. 12. 13. and 22. 29. Num. 3. 12. The Levites are expresly called the peoples † shake offring , and so were not onely approved , but given by them as their offering , even the offering of the whol congregation , and that by solemn ordination & imposition of hands by the people Men may approve the thinges done by others , but the people were principall doers themselves : the offring was theirs , and by them as their gift presented , and so by Aaron offred vnto the Lord in their name . And as shameles an vntruth is it which you avouch touching the calling of Mathyas , Act. 1. that the body of the congregation was onely made acquainted with that which concerned them all . For howsoever the ministration were extraordinary , being an Apostleship , to which he was called , and therefore the Lord reserved to himself the prerogative royall of immediate designation of the very person , Gal. 1. 1. yet would he haue the libertie of the people so inviolably preserved , as that by direction , they were to present two , and after to acknowledge by common consent that particular person which by the Lord was immediately singled out , and designed to that work . vers . 23. 26. Lastly the liberty graunted to the people for the chusing both of Deacons , and Elders , Act. 6. & 14. was not by any courtesie of the Apostles , as by the Popes indulgence for that time , as Mr B. would cunningly beare the simple reader in hand , but it was an ordinance eternall , and perpetual , never reversed but by Antichrist , even a part of that connsell of God wherewith the Apostles acquainted the Churches , and one of these cōmaundements which they were to teach all Churches to observe , which they also did . And so I come to the third reason against this imputed popularity , taken from the commission of Christ to his Apostles , and their successourt . This is something generally set down , but the thing ( I perceive by his proofs ) which Mr B : intends is , that the vse of the keyes & power of binding and loosing was committed by Christ to his A postles , and to those which succeeded them . And first here , I do graunt with Mr Bernard , that look to whō the power of binding and loosing was primarily , and immediately committed , in their successours it recideth for ever : so that the onely point in quaestion is into whose hands the Lord Iesus hath properly & immediately given the keyes of the kingdome of heaven , the power of loosing , and binding sinnes . For the better vnderstanding then of this point it must be cōsidered , that the kingdome of heaven is cōpared to a great house into which some are admitted , and others denyed enterance : the doore into this howse is Christ : the key that opens and shutts this doore , is the gospel : the opening of it ( which is the loosing of sinnes , ) is the publishing , opening , manifesting and making knowen of the gratious promises of the forgivenes of sinnes and life eternall to such as beleive , and repent . The shutting of this doore ( which is also the binding of sinnes ) is the declaration and denunciation of the wrath of God , against sinne , and of coudemnatiō vpō persons impenitent , and vnbeleevers : and both these according to the pleasure of the mayster of the house , though the latter of them be not of the nature of the gospell , which is in it self * the ministery of life , and of the spirit which giveth life , but accidentall vnto it , by mens own fault , which through their vnbeleeving , & impenitent hearts turne this key as it were , the wrong way vpon themselves . Now by the evidence of the former generall truth approved ( I doubt not ) to the conscience of every indifferent man ( which is , that a company of faithfull people vnited together in the fellowship of the gospel , though without officers , is a Church , This specialty in hand wil be cleared . And wheresoever the promise of forgivenes of sinnes , and life eternall is to be found , there hangeth the golden key of heaven gates , there sinnes are loosed in heaven : for what els is it to loose sinnes , but to publish , proclayme , or declare in the word of God & righteousnes of Christ , the forgivenes of sinnes to them that repent . But of these things hereafter . I will in the first place consider of Mr Bernards proofs , and of his collections from them . The places alleadged are , Math. 2● . 19. & 16. 19. Ioh. 20. 21. 22. 23. Mark. 13. 34. which scriptures are not all of one nature , nor serving to the same end . Yet this in generall I do answer to all of them , that we deny not but that the publique Ministers are by cōmission from Christ to publish the gospel , administer the sacraments , bind and loose sinnes , watch and ward the howse of God , and the like , which for vs to deny were wickednes , and for you to proove is lost labour . But the pointes in controversie betwixt vs are first , whether these things and all of them , and with them all other Church affairs not here mentioned , be so appropriated to the Officers , as that none other may meddle with them : and 2. whether this power be committed to them immediately from , and by Christ , or mediately from Christ by the Church : which consideration whilest you neglect , you erre your self , deceive such as follow you , and injury them you oppose . But to the particulars . The first & third scriptures , Math. 28. 19. & Ioh. 20. 21. 22 ▪ 23. are meant onely of the Apostles ; and in them they receive the cōmission Apostolik , which ( to speak properly ) is incommunicable to any other Officer in the Church . For as none are to succeed them in the Office of Apostles , so neyther is the Commission ( peculiar to the Apostles ) ●●nveyed , or intended to any others , which also further appeares thus . Their charge was to * teach and baptise all nations , & to “ goe into all the world , and to preach the gospel to every creature● but ordinary Ministers have no such commissiō , but are tied to their particular flocks , Act. 14. 2● . & 20. 28. 2. Their Cōmission was extraordinary , and miraculous , whether we respect the inward qualifications of the parties by the immediate inspiration of the holy Ghost , wherewith they were at the first springled as it were , Iohn . 20. 22. and afterward replenished , Act. 2. 4. or whether we respect the miraculous confirmation of the doctrine both by them tha● taught it , and by them that b●leeved it . Mark. 16. 17. 18. 20. 3. The very outward o●der and manner of conveying it was extraordinary , and by Christs immediate voice , and as it were with his owne hands : where ordinary Ministers have their commissiōs from Christ indeed , but by men , Gal. 1. 1. And the consideration of this very difference doth minister sufficient matter of answer , that though Christ did transferre unto the Apostles their office , and power to exercise it immediately , yet for ordinary ministers , the case is clean otherwise . Lastly the disciples of Christ did not then first receive power to teach when they were possessed of their Apostleship , but long before they were admitted into office , as did others also besides thē without office as well as they , Math. 10. 5. 6. 7. Luk. 10. 1. 2. 3. 9. 10. which scriptures alone , as they are sufficient to justify against Mr B. that the keyes of the kingdome were given into the hands of men without office , yea before any office or officer was in the Church , so do they manifest the notable falshood of that his pe●emptory affirmation , pag. 93. that it is as playn as the shining of the sun of the firmament of heaven , to such as are not blind , or wilfully shut not their eyes from seing , that Christ never sayd to the body of the congregation , that is , to any out of office , ( for that is the point ) goe preach . The Apostles by Mr B. own graunt in this place , & by these scriptures , & at this time , and not before , had their commission of Apostl●ship graunted them ●rom Christ , ( and I hope he will not say they entred their office without a commission ) ●nd yet both power and charge was given them long before to preach the kingdome of God , as the forequoted scriptures manifest . The next place is Mat. 16. 19. where expresse mention is made of the keyes of the kingdome of heaven , and of the power of binding , and loosing given to Peter : by which scripture rightly interpreted I desire the difference betwixt Mr Bernard and me may be determined . That by the keyes is meant the gospel of Christ , opening a way by him , and his merits , as the doore into the kingdome , I have formerly declared , and we must take heed of that deep delusion of Antichrist , in imagining that this power of binding or loosing sinnes , of opening , or shutting heaven gates , is tyed to any office , or order in the Church ; it depēds only vpō † Christ , who alone properly forg●veth sinnes , & hath the key of David which opens , and no man shuts , and shuttes , and no man opens : and this key externally is the gospell , which with himself he gives to his Church , Isa. 9. 6. Rō . 3. 2. & 9. 4. and not to the officers onely for them , as Mr Bern. in his ‘* last book come to mine hand in the publishing of this mine answer , doth insinuate , because the materiall book was givē into the hands of the Preists , and Elders to be kept . Deut. 31. 9. whence I do by the way gather thus much , that since the keyes of the kingdome of heaven is the gospel , and that the gospel is givē to the whole Church , and to every member of it , whether there be Ministers or no , it therefore followeth , that the keyes are given to all and every member alike , as the gospel is , though not to be vsed alike by all , and every one , which were grosse confusion , but according to the order prescribed by Christ. Now for the place in hand , ( which is Math. 16. 18. 19. ) it is graunted by all sides that Christ gave vnto Peter the keyes of the kingdome , that is , the power to remit and reteyne sinnes declaratively ( as they speak ) as also that in what respect this power was given to PETER , in the same respect it was , and is given to such as succeed Peter : but the quaestion is , in what respect or consideration this power spoken of was delegated vnto him . The Papist affirmes it was given to Peter as the Prince of the APOSTLES , and so to the BISHOPS of ROME as PETERS successours , and thus they stablish the POPES primacy : the PRELATES say nay , but vnto PETER an APOSTLE that is , a cheif Officer of the CHVRCH , and so to vs as cheif Officers succeeding him , which is also Mr B : judgement , pag. 94. Others affirm it to belong to Peter here as a Minister of the word , and sacraments , and the like , and so consequently to belong to all other Ministers of the gospel equally , which succeed Peter in those and the like administrations . But we for our partes do beleeve & professe that this promise is not made to Peter in any of these forenamed respects , nor to any office , order , estate , dignity , or degree in the Church , or world , but to the confession of faith , which Peter made by way of answer to Christs question , who demaunding of the disciples , v. 15. whom ( amongst the variety of opinions that went of him , ver . 14. ) they thought him to be , was answered by Peter in the name of the rest , Thou art Christ the sonne of the l●ving God , ver . 16. To this Christ replyes , ver . 17. blessed ar● thou Symon , the sonne of Ionas , &c. and ver . 18. thou art Peter , and upon this rock I will build my Church , and the gates of hell shall not overcome it . and v. 19. I will give unto thee the keyes of the kingdome of heaven , & whatsoever thou shalt bind vpon earth shal be bound in heaven , and whasoever thou shalt loose on earth , shal be loosed in heaven . So that the building of the Church is vpon the rock of Peters cōfession , that is , Christ , whom he confessed : this faith is the foundation of the Church : against this faith the gates of hell shall not prevayl : this faith hath the keyes of the kingdome of heaven : what this faith shall loose , or bind on earth , is bound , & loosed in heaven . And thus the Protestant divines ( when they deal against the Popes supremacy ) do generally expound this scripture , though Mr B. directly make the Pope and his shavelings Peters successours in this place , as hereafter wil appeare . Now vpon the former ground it followeth , that whatsoever person hath received the same pretious faith with Peter ( as all the faithfull have , ● Pet. 1. 1. ) that person hath a part in this gift of Christ : whosoever doth confesse publish , manifest , or make knowen Iesus to be that Christ the sonne of the living God , and Saviour of the world , that person opens heavē gate , looseth sin , & partakes with Peter in the vse of the keys . And herevpon also it followeth necessarily , that one faithful man , yea or woman eyther , may as truely , and effectually loose , and bind , both in heaven , and earth , as all the Ministers in the world . But here I know the Lordly clergy , like the bulles of Bashan , will roar lowd vpon me , as speaking things intollerably derogatory to the dignitie of Preisthood , and it may be some others also , eyther through ignorance , or superstition , will take offence at this speach , as confounding all things : but there is no such cause of exception . For howsoever the keyes be one and the same in nature , and efficacy , in what faithful mans or mens handes soever , as not depending eyther vpon the number , or excellency of any persons , but vpon Christ alone , yet is it ever to be remembred , that the order , and manner of vsing them is very different . These keyes in doctrine may be turned as well vpō them which are without the Church , as vpon them which are within , and their sinnes eyther loosed , or bound . Math. 28. 19. but in discipline ( as we speak ) not so , but onely vpon them which are within . 1 Cor. 5. 12. 13. Againe the Apostles by their office had these keyes to vse in all Churches , yea in all nations vpon earth : ordinary Elders for their particular flockes . Act. 14. 23. & 20. 28. Lastly there is an vse of these keyes publiquely to be had , and an vse privately : an use of them by one person severally , and an use of them by the whole Church ioyntly , and together : an vse of thē ministeriall , or in office , and an vse of them out of office : but the power of the gospel ( which is the keyes ) is still one , and the same , notwithanding the divers manner of vsing it . And this distinction well observed will stop the hole , by which Mr Bernard in his reply , sundry times scapes out ( where otherwise he should be vnavoydably taken in Mr Smythes arguments ) by taking vantage at , and perverting of a phrase vsed by Mr Sm : which is the ministeriall power of Christ. This ministeriall power Mr S. makes that externall cōmunicated , & delegated power of Christ with and to the Church , serving onely for manifestation and declaration of the remission , or retention of sinnes , opposing ministeriall power in the creature , to that power essentiall , & incommunicable which is inhaerentin Christ and God the creator : but Mr B. on the other side , eyther ignorantly , or deceiptfully , misinterprets the terme Ministeriall , as meant onely of the power in office , opposed to that which is out of office , and so creeps out at this cranny . But with what reason can it be eyther conceived , or suggested that Mr Smyth should affirme , that the body of the Church , or a private brother out of office , should have this power spoken of in office ? Thus much to prove that all the pretious promises , Math. 16. were made to Peter in respect of his confession of faith , and so consequently to all others , which succeed him in the same confession , and amongest the rest , the vse of the keyes , though not in the same order , or office with Peter , which was peculiar vnto him with some few others . It followeth . First if the keyes of the kingdome of heaven be appropriated vnto the officers , then can there be no forgivenes of sinnes , nor salvation without officers : for there is no enterance into heaven but by the dore , there is no clyming over any other way , without the key the doore cannot be opened : so then belike if eyther there be no officers in the Church ( as it may easily come to passe in some extreame plague , or persecution , ( howsoever in England a man may haue a Preist for the whisteling ) and must needs be in the Churches of Christ in our dayes eyther in their first plāting , or first calling out of Babylon : for Antichrists masse-preisthood is not essentially Christs true M●nistery ) or if the officers † take away the key of knowledge ( as the Scribes & Pharisees did ) & will neither enter in themselves , nor suffer them that would , then must the miserable multitude be content to be shut out , and perish eternally , for ought is knowen to the contrary . They haue no remedy in this case , no redresse may be had of this evill , no meanes vsed to avoid it . Though the Pope cary with him thowsands to hell , no man may say vnto him Sir , why do you s● ? To admonish the Officers of their sinne , were against common sense that the father should be subiect to his children , the work dominere over the workman , the seeds-man be ordered by the corn , and to excōmunicate them and call new , were intolerable vsurpation of the keyes , this power is given to the chief officers onely , pag. 94. 95. and to separate from them is as intollerable . pag. 88. Miserable were the Lords people if these things were so : but the truth is they are miserable guides that so teach . 2 They which may forgive sins and sinners , save soules , gayne , and turne men vnto the Lord , to them are the keyes of the kingdome given , by which they open the dore vnto such , as they thus forgive , gayne , and save : but all these things such as ar● no ministers , may do , as these scriptures ( which I entreat the godly reader to consider ) do most clearly manifest , Math. 18. 15. 2 Cor. 2. 5. 7. 8. 9. 10. Act. 8. 1. 4. with 11. 19. 20. 21. Iam. 5. 19. 20. 1 Pet. 3. 1. Iude , 22. 23. Erroneous therefore , & derogatory is it to the nature of the gospel , & free donation of Christ , thus to impropriate and ingro 〈…〉 the keyes , whichly common to all Christians in their place and order . 3. Lastly I do affirme with Mr Smyth that the twelve were as yet but disciples , and not actually Apostles . Designed in deed they were to the office of Apostles , but not possessed of it . A man may call such a woman his wife , before they be actually maryed , and such a child his heire , though he be not for the present possessed of a foot of his inheritance , nor like to be before the testators death : and that this was the condition of the twelve , I prove by these reasons . If the twelve were called to the office of Apostles , Mat. 16. then Christ called men to an office , for which they were altogether vnfit , & vnfurnished , which to imagine were impious against Christ. Now that they were vtterly vnapt to this office , appeares in these particulars . First they vvanted that Christian fortitude , and courage , vvhich vvas most needfull for that office . Secondly , they were ignorant of the nature of Christs kingdom ▪ not forecasting his death , nor beleeving his resurrection , vnfurnished also with the gift of tongues , and so vtterly vnable to teach the gentiles , for whose sake they received their commission in a speciall manner , Mat. 16. 21. 22. & 20. 20. 21. & 26. 51. Mark. 16. 11. 14. Luke ●4 . 21. Act. 2. 1. 2. 3. 4. Mat. ●8 . 19. Ephe. 3. 5. 6. 2. When Christ ascended on high he gave gifts to men , viz. Apostles , Evangelists , &c. Ephe. 4. 8. 11. And then and not before then was the Church capable of the office of Apostles , who were to preach the gospel to all nations , when the partition wall was broken down betwixt the Iewes & Gentiles , that the gentiles also which were formerly straungers & forreigners , might now be made citizens with the saints , and of the househood of God , Ephe. 2. 12. 19 ▪ And a● this particular I have now in hand , seemeth to receive confirmation from the last scripture Mr Bernard bringeth for the Apostles commission , which is Mark. 13. 34. where Christ at his departing into a straunge countrey sets his house in order , gives his servants authority and appoints them their work ▪ so doth the expositiō & application of the same scripture to the generall purpose ( if we cōpare with this place that which he affirmeth in another ) argue him that brings it of a mind very vnsound and vnstable . Here , ( as all men see ) Mr Bern. allegeth it to prove that the cheif officers onely are by commission from Christ to medle in the publick affaires of the Church , and in particular to redresse things amisse , and to censure offenders : but in his second book being pressed by an argument by Mr Smith taken from this scripture , he fare and ●●at●y denyes , that the Lord in this place intends to set out any government of the Church at all : and thus compared with himself , he is like nothing l●sse then himself . Now since Mr B. disclayms this scripture as not intended at all of the goverment of the Church , & that in his 2. & better thoughts , I have no reason to spend much time in answering him . Onely I can not passe by one frivolous exception , in his reply , against Mr Sm. and another absurd collection of his owne . Where Mr Smyth affirmes , that every servant or disciple in the Church hath authority ( and that truely ) ( if he have the word of God he hath authority , for the word caryes authority with it , wheresoever it goes ) Mr B. excepts first that by servants are meant Officers : which as it is true sometimes , so is it otherwise for the most part , espetially in the parables of this kind , Mat. 25. 14. Luk. 19. 12. 13. to which this parable seemeth well to consort : wherin since all have received some good thing , or substance , frō Christ to be dispensed for the good of the rest , all should dilig●tly & faithfully imploy their labour in the same , ever expecting the returne of the mayster , & all & every one of them watching , and the Porter specially , according to that speciall charge , layd vpon him to watch , ver . 34. 35. 37. but the exception I meane is that by servants cannot be meant the Church , because the house is the Church , and the authority not given to the house , but to the servants in the house , who are to look over others . Mark here , in the case of goverment , the house must needs be the Church , the Church and house are both one , & Christ speaking of the house , or Church meanes the people , excluding the officers : and yet Math. 18. in the case of goverm●t , the officers are in Christs speach the Church , or house ( for they are all one ) excluding the people . But to the poynt , as the officers are both the Lords † servants in his house & parts of the * house and houshould also , so are the people not onely the house or of the house and houshould as in the forenamed scriptures , but “ the Lords servants in his house also . The idle and senseles exposition Mr B. gives is of the Porters watching . Where the mayster at his departure appoyntes every serv●●t his work , and commaunds all to watch , and the porter specially , least he 〈◊〉 suddenly and fynd them sleeping , Mr B. to ioyne all together for the holding out of Mr Smythes Argument , makes the Porter Gods spirit , as if the Holy Ghost were one of the servants , and had a commaundement from Christ to watch , least it should be found asleep at his comming . And by this , I hope , it appeareth in the generall contrary to Mr B. affirmation , that the power of Christ ( or keyes of the kingdom ) is not delegated or committed primarily much lesse solaryly , or alone , to the officers of the Church how soever they as the governours are to direct , and as the minister to exequute in the vse of this power , or of these keyes . Of the particulars hereafter . That which comes next into consideration is , that the Apostles committed that theyr power received from Christ not to the body of the people , but to the cheife ministers of the gospell , and cheife officers of the Church . First here let the reader observe how Mr B. interesses these cheiftayns onely in the power of Christ as the Apostles successours ( excluding himselfe and the rest of his rank ) that he may advance the throne of Antichrist in his cheife ministers the Lord Archbishops & Bishops , whose chayre he thus stoutly laboures to vphold with both shoulders . Secondly I deny , that eyther the Evangelists , such as were Timothy , and Titus , succeeded the Apostles in their office , or that any other ministers in the Church , did or do succeed eyther the Apostles , or Evangelists , as they were such ( as we speak ) . They were extraordinary officers in the first plāting of the faith amongst the gentiles , theyr qualifications extraordinary , and miraculous , as the gift of tongues , and the like , and so theyr offices were determined in theyr persons . And yet I deny not but the true Ministers of the gospell the Bishops or Elders , in theyr particular Churches do succeed the Apostles ( though not in office ) yet in theyr ordinary ministration of the word , sacraments , censures , prayer , ordination , & all other ordinances of the Church whatsoever , according to the order Christ hath left ; but that the Apostles and Evangelists have by any order committed theyr power or any part of it to any such Cheif Ministers or rather Lords , yea spiritual tyrāts as the Lordbishops & Archbishops in Engl. are , that I deny withall my power . There are no such cheifteyns in the Church of Christ , or communion of saynts . The Apostles did , by the Churches free choyce , ordeyn in every particular assembly a company of Elders or Bishops , whome they charged with the particular flockes , in , and to which they were to minister the holy things of God , and none other . Act. 14. 23. and 20. 17. 28. 1 Tim. 3. 1. 2. 4. Tit. 1. 5. 1 Pet. 5. ● . 2. Much lesse are the great Antichrists of Rome , the Popes , and Cardinalles , the Apostles , and Evangelists successours in any right by the word of God , or capable in that theyr estate of Apostolicall or other ministeriall power of Christ , as you Mr B. will make them , of which your Popish errour more in place . Now for the scriptures cited , they serve well to prove that which no man denyes , in which kynd of disputing Mr B. hath a speciall faculty . The scriptures are ▪ 1 Tim. 1. 3. and 3. 14. 15. and 5. 21. 22. Tit. ● . 5. which places prove thus much in effect , that Timothy was to see false doctrine suppressed in Ephesus ; that men gifted according to the word of God should be chosē into the office of Bishops and Deacons : that he should deale vnpartially in all things : that he should not partake in the sinns of other men by laying hands suddaynly vpon any : & that Titus was left in Crete to redresse things amisse , and to ordayne Elders in the Churches . And what followes vpon this ? I know well what Mr B. infers : namely , that the cheif Ministers alone in the Churches whether pure , or impure ( by which latter he meanes the Church of Rome ) as he expounds himself ▪ pag. 145. that is , that Popes , Cardinalls , Archbishops , Bishops , Suffraganes , Chauncelours ▪ and the rest of the triumphant Clergy , and they alone should medle with supressing errour , rectifying things amisse , calling and ordayning ministers , and that all others are absolutely inhibited any medling with these things . Well , ( to let passe your fearefull retyring ( Mr B. ) into the battered bulwarks of the Papists for succour , and the discharging of your selfe , and all the inferiour ministery that these cheif ministers might reigne alone ) the scriptures do not debar●e the members of the Church from medling in those things in their place , and order , nor impropriate them to the cheife Lords , as is pretended , onely they declare that the officers are to do theyr own duetyes in those businesses , and to put the brethren in remembrance of theyrs , to commaund , teach , and speak those things , exhorting & rebuking with all authority by the word of God as occasion serves . 1 Tim. 4. 6. 11. Tit. 2. 15. And if Mr B. will conclude any thing for his purpose by the scriptures he alledgeth he must take this position for graunted , that whatsoever Paul wrytes to Timothy , or Titus , touching the Church , about that onely they , & theyr successours the cheif ministers are to medle ; which presumpteous affirmation is sufficiently refuted by the very recitall of it . He that reads over the Epistles but with a pece of an ey may see the contrary . There is no greater force in this collection then in that Mar. 13. 34. bycause the porter is to watch , therefore he alone , and not the rest also , which is cōtrary to the expresse words immediatly following , where all are cōmaunded to watch , v. 37. And thus the conclusion , which Mr B. would make , that the place , 1 Cor. 5. though generally spoken , must be vnderstood of the cheife officers of the Church , is without pr●mises . It must be vnderstood as it is spoken , though both he , & the Pope say nay to it , and of the meaning of it , we shall speak hereafter at large , when we come to handle the censures of the Church , as also of your pretended proof . 2 Cor. 2. 6. Onely I must needs take knowledge of that part of the truth , which Mr B. being set vpon the rack of his conscience in reading this , 1 Cor. 5. is compelled to confesse , and that is , that from v. 5. ●● may be gathered for the body of the Church , that the offender must be delivered to Satan with their knowledge publiquely , when they meet together in the open assembly . Towching which his graunt I observe these three particulars . First it overthrowes the practise in the Church of England , where the offender is excommunicated by the Chauncelour , or Officiall , it may be , fourty miles off from the body of the congregation , whereof he is a member , and that most what without the presence of any one of the body , yea or their privity eyther , till such tymes as eyther the Parish Preist , or Church dore signify the matter vnto them . 2. If the officers must judge , and excommunicate in the open assembly , then can they alone in no sense be the Church . For the Church is nothing but the assembly . And it is all one to say the officers in the assembly , are the Church , as to say the officers in the assembly , are the assembly ▪ which is a senseles affirmation . And if the Officers alone be the Church , to which complaint is to be made , and which is to reprove the offender and judge him , they must do it in a distinct assembly from the body , and not in the assembly compounded necessarily of the officers and the body : as your Courtkeepers doe in their Consistories , & the Elders in the reformed Churches in their private Chambers . 3. It is most vntrue which you say , that no more can be gathered from this place , but that excommunication was performed in the presence of the body of the Church , and with their knowledge being gathered together : it is apparent that they which were gathered together , were by the power of Christ to deliver to Satan the offender , to purge out the old leven , to iudge , and to put out from among themselves that wicked fornicatour . v. 5. 6. 7. 12. 13. of which more hereafter . And so I come to the 4. Reason against Popularity ( as you term ●t ) but in truth against Christian liberty : which is grounded vpō Ephe. 4. 11. 12. Your words are these . It is most apparant that Christ ascending vp gave gifts for preaching , administration of sacraments , and government vnto some sorts of men , who 〈…〉 e set out there and plainly distinguished from the other saynts , the body of the Church . Against this hitherto I take no great exceptiō : though the Apostles meaning may be better layd down thus , that Christ Iesus the King and Lord of his Church hath set in it certaine sorts , and orders , of officers rightly fitted , and furnished with graces for the reparation of the saynts , and aedification of his body to the worlds end . This we affirme as lowd as you , and with more comfort . And therfore after I have observed in a few wordes , how little this scripture serves for your present purpose , I will in as few more make it appeare , how directly it serves against you in many other mayn matters , and that you in bringing it have onely lighted a candle whereby to discover your own nakednes . This then is that which you would conclude , that bycause Christ hath given power , and charge to the sorts of ministers here set downe for the reparation of the saynts , and aedification of the body , that therefore no brethren out of office may medle with the reparation and aedification of the Saynts , or Church . I do acknowledge that onely Apostles , Prophets , &c. by office , and as works of their Ministery , are to look to the reparation , and aedification of the body : but that the brethren out of office , are discharged of those du●ties , I deny , any more then the rest of the servants were of watching , ( though out of office ) bycause the Porter alone was by office to watch . Mark. 13. 34 37. Yea look what is layd vpon the officers in this place , after a more speciall manner , by vertue of their office , that also is layd vpon the rest of the brethren els where in the same words to be performed in their places as a duty of love , for which they have not onely liberty but charge from the Lord. The officers are here charged with the reparation or knitting together of the saynts : the same duty in the same words is imposed vpon every brother * spirituall : and I hope you the Ministers will not be the onely spirituall men in the Church . Secondly the officers are here given to aedifie the body : the same duety in the same termes is layd vpon every one of the brethren in their places . 1 Thes. 5. 11. and vnto these few might be added an hundred places of the same nature . Why then should the Ministers of the Lord , or any other † for their sake envy , vnto the Lords people eyther their graces or liberty , or thus arrogate all vnto thēselves , as though all knowledge were treasured vp in their breasts , all power given into their handes , & as though no drop of grace for aedificatiō or comfort of the Church could fall from els where then from their lips . Moses in the place of numbers before named wisht that all the Lords people were Prophets , and that the Lord would put his spirit vpon them : and Paul gives liberty to * the whol Church , and to all in it ( women excepted ver . 34. ) to prophesie one by one for the instruction , edification and comfort of all : but with Mr B : and his Church , I perceive , neyther Moses prayer , nor Pauls graunt , nor Gods spirit must be avayleable , or find acceptance for aedification by any save the Ministers . The subjects of Kings vse to complayn much of Monopolyes , but the subjects of the Lord Iesus have greater cause of complaint , that he himself , his power , presence , and graces wherewith he honoureth all his saynts , are thus monopolized , and ingrossed . The similitude which here you borrow frō the body of man , wherein ( you say ) the special members have their speciall vertues in themselves given of God and not bestowed vpon them by the body , as the eyes to see , the tongue to speak &c. for the confirmation of the power of the Lord Iesus , or liberty to teach , admonish , and censure in the hands of the officers alone is faulty in both parts of it , and conteynes in it sundry errours both theologicall , and phylosophicall . And first I do here most justly except against your shuffling together and confounding of the personall gifts , graces , and vertues of the Ministers and their ministeriall power or office . The first in deed they have from Christ , and not from , or by the Church at all , as their knowledge , zeale , vtterance , wisdome , holynes , and the like : with which the Church findes them furnished , & so appoints them vnder Christ to vse these gifts in office of Ministery , whereof out of office they have erst given knowledge : & this power or appointment , which they have from or by the Church thus to vs● these gifts is another thing then their personall gifts , and qualifications themselves , which you Mr B. do very fraudulently confound . Secondly , it is ignorantly affirmed , that God endu●s certayn members of the body with speciall vertues and properties , as th●●y with seing , and the like : & that they have thes properties not from the body but from God. For first the very vertue , or faculty of seing is not in the ey , but in the soul , which vseth the ey onely for the instrument of seing , & so other parts in their kind . Oculus non vide● , sed anima per oculi●● . And that not immediately neyther , but with the help of the spirits , naturall , vitall , and animall diffused throughout the body , which the soul vseth most immediately as the instruments of all life , sense , & motion . And so it comes to passe not onely in death where the soul and body are separated , but in sundry diseases also of the body , that the ey fayleth in seeing , and so other members in their service . Thirdly , as the Elders of the Church ( I confesse ) may be compared to eyes in the body , and the Deacons to hands in a respect , so I deny the similitude to hold absolutely . Similitudes ( as they say ) do not run vpon four feet : & to streyn them above that which is intended by the holy Ghost in vsing them , is a course full both of vanity and errour . The Deacons are the handes of the Church for the distribution of her bodily things to them that need , & yet I trow , you would not have the Church suffer the poore to starve , where the Deacons are wanting to minister , or fayling in their ministration : so are the Elders the eyes & mouth of the Church for her government , and ministration of spirituall things , & yet must not the Church perish spiritually for their want , or negligence : no , the Lord is more mercifull to his people then so , and doth nor ty them so short in the meanes of their aedification , & salvation , how streyt and hard hearted soever you M. B. are towards them , or cōtemptuous of them : they may , and must use in cases of necessity their best helpes , for the distribution of things simply necessary to the body . And dare you say ( as you haue done in both your books ) that the officers are absolutely to the Church , as the eyes to the body ? and that there is no spirituall light in the rest of the members save onely in them ? and that all the body besides and without them is darknes ? Indeed such a blind beetle your spirituall Lords , and you make your Churches , and so you lead them . But , oh you the people of God , yet in Babylon , partakers of the heavenly illumination , trust not these your Seers too much . they would be thought all ey from top to bottom , and would make you beleeve , that you the multitude are stoneblind , and can not possibly without them see one step before you , that so they might lead you by the lip , whither they list : but open your eyes more and more , and you shall see more and more clearely that the wayes of your Nationall Church ▪ are not the wayes which Christ hath left for his visible Churches to walk in , but a very by path : and take heed that these men , which would be thought all , and onely light , cause not a ●og of earthly ordinances to rise vpon you , and a dark mist to cover you . To proceed . This one scripture , Ephe. 4. 11. 12. truely expounded , and according to the Apostles meaning , serves at one blow to overthrow the whol ministery of your Church of England , and all communion with it . Your whol plea for your Ministery is , that you teach the word of God , & the true word of God , and therewith you invite all your guests vnto your bāquet . But now if your ministery be not the Ministery which Christ hath set vp in his Ch : no● of the gifts , which he hath givē vnto his Church , but of an other sort , & foundatiō , then it followes that no felowship or cōmuniō is to be had with it vnder any plausible pretense , nor vpon any experimentall profit neyther . The officers thē which Christ hath given for the aedificatiō of his Church to the worlds end are , Apostles , Prophets , Evangelists , Pastors , & Teachers , Ephe. 4. 11. 12. Now the first three sorts of these abovenamed were extraordinary , & extraordinarily endued , for the first publishing of faith , and planting of Churches , and so as temporary are ceased , with their endowments , and this you graunt in effect , pag. 184. of your last book . And for the Pastor● and Teachers here spoken of , you Mr B : and the Ministers of your order would be thought the men . Of what sort then ( I pray you ) are your grand Metropolitans , your Archbishops , Bishops , Suffraganes , Deanes , Archdeacons , Chauncelours , Officials and the residew of that Lordly Clergy ? They must needs be of some other order then is here named , and the gifts of some other cheif Lord then of Christ , when he ascended on high , and gave his gifts , & that is Antichrist , whose gifts they were when he ascended on high , even to the throne of his Apostasy . And now for you , which are set over the particular Parishes , to teach the people , ( as I confesse you of all the rest to be likest vnto the true Pastours ) so by your own confession are you excluded frō that rank . The Officers which Christ hath appointed , when he ascended , have received power ( by your own assertion ) not onely for preaching and administring the sacraments , but for government also . The want then of the power of government bewrayeth you to be anothers gift then Christs , even his and none others , which hath devised an other order , and distribution of giftes then ever came into Christs hart to appoint . Lastly , as it is true you affirm , that Christ never sayd to the body of the congregation , viz : in expresse termes , go preach , so is it most vntrue which you intend , viz : that he never gave libertie , and charge to any out of office to teach in the exercise of prophesy . This point I have touched formerly , but will more fully handle hereafter . The same I also affirme in the second place touching the power of government , not opposing your words well interpreted , but your meaning , which is , that none but men in office have power eyther to reforme any abuse in the Church or to perform any other necessary Church duty without them . And for shutting vp of this fourth Argument , let it be considered , that here is a great difference in administration of doctrine by teaching , and of admonition & excommunication in the order of discipline . Onely one man in the Church doth teach at once , and all the rest both Elders & people are taught by him , but the whol Church may admonish , or excommunicate one or more at once , or by one act : and so though Christ never say to the Church , goe teach , yet , he sayth to the Ch : admonish , & excommunicate . Mat. 18. 17. 1 Cor. 5. 4. 5. In doctrine one man teacheth the whol Church , & the whol Church is taught : in disciplyne the whole Church reproveth and excommunicateth one man and hi● censureth . And thus your light Mr B. which you boast , is as clear● as the sun in the firmament of heaven , is darkened , your sun is gone downe at noon day . Amos 8. 9. The fifth reason is thus layd down . It is never to be found in all the old testament that the people , but princes and ecclesiasticall governours men in authority were reproved for suffring holy things to be abused . Ezech. 22. 26. 1 ▪ Sam. 2. 27. 1 King. 13. so in the new testament , Math. 23. Rev. 2. 1. 8. 12. 18. and 3. 1. 7. 14. no mētion in these places is made of the people . It seems Mr B. hath learnt of them which give counsel to affirme all things peremptorily , vnder hope to find some men with whom a confident affirmation will go as far as a modest proof . But here as alwayes I do except against ( as a corner stone of Babylon ) your vnequall yoaking of ecclesiasticall Officers & Ministers in the govermēt of the Church , with Princes & Magistrates in their civil authority : there is no proportion betwixt them . A Lyon and an Ox will payr better then these two kinds of governours , and governments . Neyther can it be rightly sayd of Church officers that they are men in authority : they are men in * service and charge , whether we respect God , or the Church . They have power , I graunt , for they have the † gospell to preach & minister , which is , the power of God to salvation : they are to speak with ‘* authority , and that also in the order of office , and by speciall commission . And so the Evangelists testifie of Christ , that “ he taught as having authority , and not as the scribes : the reason was , that where the manner of teaching amongst the Scribes was very corrupt , and degenerate , affecting the peoples harts with no reverence of God , Christ on the contrary did manifest in his teaching such vertue , and vigour of the spirit , as did draw even the prophane hearers into admiration . There are in deed in the cōmon wealth Kings , and Magistrates in authority under them , partakers of their kingly power by subordination , by which participation they properly and effectually even as the King himself , bind and loose , save and destroy , exact and procure obedience civily both in Church and cōmon wealth , and that by a kingly and lordly power over the people , whose Kings , Lords , and Maysters they are : but the Officers in the Church are in no such authority by participation of Christs kingly power , neyther can they properly and effectually bind and loose , save and destroy , exact and procure obedience as Christ doth : neyther are they , as civil Magistrates , though the Kings servants , and ministers , yet the peoples Lords , and maysters , but both Christs , and the peoples servants , and Ministers . Now let any judge that hath in him eyther religion , or reason , conscience or cōmon sense , if it be not irreligious , vnconscionable , vnreasonable , and senselesse that the body of the Church should have no more liberty and power in the imployments of their servants and Ministers in their Office , then the body of the cōmon wealth in the imployments of their Lords , and Maysters in their Office. To this also I may adde , that there are many civil ordināces and constitutions in the common wealth which concerne not one of a thowsand of the Kings people , many Magistrates & Officers chosen the inferiour by the superiour without the peoples privity or cōsent , many administratiōs vsed , judgemēts passed , & exequutions done , which the greatest part of the people do not ( nor are bound ) so much as once to enquire after : much lesse are they bound to complayn of the breach of every civil ordinance , to see it reformed , to charge every Magistrate to look to his office , to admonish him if in any thing he deale corruptly , or wickedly , and if he will not be reclaymed but goe obstinately on ( in the spirit of an Haeretick , Idolater , or Atheist ) to disclaym or depose him : but in the Church , all and every ordinance concernes every person ( as a part of their communion ) ( without the dispensation of necessity ) for their vse , and † aedification : all the * Officers to be chosen by suffrages and consent of the multitude : the brethren are to admonish their brethren of every violation of Gods commaundement , and so in order to ‘* tell the Church , and to see the parties reformed : to observe and to take notice of the officers cariage , and ministration , and to “ say to Archippus ( as there is need ) take heed to thy ministery , that thou hast received of the Lord , that thou fulfil it : and if the Ministers will deal corruptly , and so persevere in the spirit of profanenes , heresy , idolatry , or atheism , to ‘† censure , depose , reiect or avoyd them : otherwise they betray their own soules , and salvation . These things I thought good , vpon this occasion further to annext , touching the difference and dissimilitude of civil and ecclesiasticall governours and government , not doubting for conclusion to affirm , that ther is no one errour in Popery serving more directly to advance Antichrist to the highest step of his throne , or there to establish him , then thus to confound these two estates in their authority , and manner of government : though ( alasse ) too many will needs transforme Ministers into Magistrates , servants into Lords : and as * the Kings of the earth have given their power & authority vnto the beast , and arrayed the great whore tha● fitteth vpon the beast , with purple , and scarlet , and gilded her with gold , pretious stones , and pearles , so do they still help her to hold her kingly & lordly authority , and to beare vp her pompous trayne , and that specially by enforcing those scriptures for ecclesiasticall government , and the manner and order of it , which were left for direction in civil governments , and their administrations . And yet for more speciall answer vnto you Mr Bernard , it followes not , that , bycause the people are not interessed in the reformation of abuses by the scriptures you cite , therefore it is never found eyther in the old , or new testament , that any such duty lyes vpon them . The scriptures do not intend to speak of all things at once , but that charge , which is omitted in one place , is oft tymes supplyed , and prescribed in another . And to this purpose , I do desire that these few scriptures amongst many others may be considered of : Num. 5 1. 2. Iosh. 7. 1. 11. 12. 24. 25. & 22. 11. 12. — 16. 17. 18. 20. Iudg. 20. 11. 12. 2 Sam. 20. 22. Ezech. 44. 5. 6. 7. 9. Luke , 17. 3. 4. Gal. 6. 1. 1 Thes. 5. 14. 1 Cor. 5. whol Ch. & all these & many other of the same nature will manifest , that the people are charged with the reformatiō of abuses for the keeping pure of their cōmunion , as well as the officers , though not in the same order , or degree . But what need we seek further ? as all the scriptures brought forth by Mr Bern. do charge the govervours with reformation , and none of them exempt the people in their rank , and order , so are there some of them so pregnant against him in the point , & by which he hath been so oft silenced to his face , that , if he had not set himself in opposition , without all measure , or modesty , he would never offer his cause to be tryed by that evidence in writing , by which in speach , he hath been so oft cast and convinced . The scriptures I especiall mean are Rev. 2. & 3. And the thing which he would prov● from those scriptures is , that , bycause Iohn in the verses named by him , speakes to the Angels of the particular Churches , that therefore it conernes the Angels , that is , the chief officers alone , and no way the people ( no nor any of the Officers but one in a Church by Mr Bernards exposition ) to see to the reformation of such abuses , and disorders , as in those Churches are reproved . But if in these scriptures he thus sever , and sejoyne the officers , and people , why might not the officers be excluded by a● good consequence , by other verses of these Chapters , where mention is made of the Churches , and not of the Angels , as the people in these , where the Angels onely , and not the people are mentioned ? and both alike . The answer , and truth then is , that Iohn * writes and sendes these Epistles or this book , to the 7. Churches in Asia , as he is expresly directed by Christ : & so willeth all men to † heare , and take knowledge what the spirit sayth to the Churches : but bycause the matters were publique , & he absent from the Churches , it was both most convenient , & necessary he should direct his letters to the officers for the whol Churches , as being not onely most fit for their knowledge , but most bound by their places to provoke the Churches vnto , and to direct and goe before them in the reformation of such evills as were found amongst them . As if the King at any time write his letters to any corporation in the land about some such publick busines , as wherein every free man hath an hand , he directs them to the MAIOR , BAYLY , or some other cheife officer , by whome they are to be published to the whole body , and the matter managed , which they conteyn , though as I formerly sayd , every freeman be to speak to , and consent in the busines . And here it is too much Mr B. should say ( as he doth ) that no mention in these places of the revelation is made of the people , but of the governours onely , where Christ expresly enjoynes Iohn to write his vision , and to send it vnto the 7. Churches , ver . 11. where Iohn expresly salutes them with grace and peace , as Paul and others do them to whom they write in the beginning of their letters , v. 4. Where he also calls those candlesticks he saw in his vision , the Churches , though distinguished from the Officers , or Angels , whom he calls starres , or lights . ver . 12. 13. 20. and lastly and specially where after his both commendations , & reproofs , promises , and threatnings , he wills mē to listen what the spirit sayth not of , but vnto the Churches . Chap , 2. 7. 11. 17. 29. & 3. 6. 13. 22. which do necessarily conclude the people in them . But to let passe generalls , & to come to such particulars in these Chapters , as wherein the suffring of evills in the Churches is reproved . Onely I must needs shew Mr B. his great oversight , that , where he should prove , that onely the angels of the Churches were reproved for suffering evils vnreformed , he points vs to sundry Angels , and Churches , where there is no mention at all made of suffring evils , but all of doing , as well by the Angels , as Churches , as in Ephesus , Sardi , and Laodicea : and which is worse , vnto other Angels , and Churches , where there were no evils at all worthy reproof eyther done or suffred : as in Smyrna , and Philadelphia . And is not this sound dealing ? The Lord Iesus finds nothing in the Ch : of Smyrna & Phyladelphia worthy of taxatiō , but all of cōmendation , ergo the cheif governours onely in these Churches are reproved for suffring evils vnreformed . I now come to the particular scriptures , in number two , where mention is made of evils suffred vnreformed , and reproof layd vpon them which suffered them in the two Churches of Pergamus and Thyatira . And that Iohn directs his reproofs against the Churches , and not against the Officers alone , I do thus manifest . 1. Them , whose workes Christ commends , for that , dwelling where Satans throne was , they kept his name , and denyed not his fayth , &c. them I say he reproves , and against them he deales , for suffering them that m●●nteyn the doctrine of Balaam , & of the Nichola●tans , v. 13. 14. 15. 16. 2. They which are commended by Christ for their workes , love , service , fayth , patience , and encrease in works , they are also reproved by him for suffering the woman Iezebell , the false Prophetesse to teach and to deceive , vers . 19. 20. But it were senselesse to affirm , that the Angel alone , and not the people with him , was commended for dwelling where Satans throne was , keeping Christs name , and not denying his fayth in persecution , that the Angel alone was commended for his works , love , service , fayth , patience , and the like , and as senseles , as to affirm , that onely some of the Angel of the Church of Smyrna was to be cast into prison . ver . 10 , and therefore , as the faythfull , the brethren , the saynts , the people , had their portion in these Christian vertues , and in the commendations given vnto them , so also do they beare their part in the reproofs due to the toleration of such evils as were found amongst them , and are exhorted to repētance . v. 16. And this the two adversative conjunctions but & notwithstanding , or neverthelesse , v. 14. & 20. do evidently declare . In many graces these Churches did abound , and faythfull they were in great tryalls , but , or notwithstanding in this they fayled that they were not zealous enough against such deceivers , as crept in amongst them , but suffered thē to others hurt , & their owne danger also . ver . 24. Of these things I have spoken something the more at large , to discover the bold injury which Mr B. offereth vnto these scriptures : which may also serve to manifest both the libertie & dutie of the people for the reforming of abuses in the Churches , against the usurpation of the English , or other Clergie whatsoever . Now to that which is inferred by way of conclusion , that 1 Cor. 5. must be expounded by other places , and by the whole course of scripture , & the like , & that , tell the Church , Mat. 18. 17. must be vnderstood , tell the cheif Officers of the Church , these severalls must be answered . First let it alwayes be remembred , that we beleeve , and confess that the Elders which Christ hath left in his Church , are to govern the same in all things ( provided alwayes the nature of ecclesiasticall government be not exceeded ) according to the lawes by him prescribed , and that so doing , the brethren are most streytly bound to obey them , without disturbance , intrusion , or opposition , vnder peyn of Gods wrath for their rebelliō against him , and them . Heb. 13. 17. But as els where is observed , it is one thing to be the Church , an other thing to govern the Church , one thing for the officers to direct , and go before the brethren in all things as guides , and another matter vtterly to exclude the brethren from any part of the communion , as neyther being the Church , nor any part of it , as this exposition doth . These things Mr B. ignorantly blunders together , and so he and others rayse odious clamours against vs of Anabaptism , popularity , and the like , as if we confounded all persons , and things , and made the Church a very Chaos , or Babel , without form or order . 2. I acknowledge that one scripture must be expounded by an other , but ever the more dark , and obscure by that which is more playne and lightsome : now so playne , cleare evident , and perspicuous are the two scriptures in hand for excommunication , the former Mat. 18. 15. 16. 17. for the order and degrees of proceeding , the other 1 Cor. 5. for the persons interessed in the buesinesse , as that to bring in other scriptures for the expounding of them , is in truth as needlesse , and lost a labour , as to light the sun and moon a candle . Now for the places , severally , and first for Math. 18. 17. where sayth Mr B. tell the Church , is tell the cheif officers of the Church : and so must be expounded . Well , the words are cleare as the sun , tell the Church , that is , the congregation or assembly whereof the offender is a member . But where you make the Church , not the officers simply , but the cheif officers , therein you deale both wisely and dutifully . Wisely ( to let passe other respects ) in preventing a quaestion , which otherwise you could not possibly answer : for if you had sayd the officers simply , it would have demaunded of you where your & your fellow Ministers power of excommunication had been : duetify , & as an obedient child in giving the rod of discipline into the hands of your reverend fathers alone , and their substitutes . Well Mr B. whomsoever the Lord Iesus meant by the Church , Mat. 18. he never meant , that the Archbishop of York , the Archdeacon of Nottingham , the Officiall of Southwel , were the Church of Worksop : and for this I vvill spare all Arguments , and send you to your owne guilty conscience for conviction , which as it condemns you in yourself , ( which is also the case of many thowsands in the Land ) so do I earnestly wish both you , and them to remember with fear and trembling the condemnation of him that is greater then your cōscience . Ioh. 3. 20. So far are they from being the Church of Worksop as they are not so much as members of it , nor of any other particular Church in the kingdome : they are neyther the Pastours ( so called ) nor vnder the Pastors of any particular Church , but with their tanscendent jurisdiction in their Provinciall , and Diocesan Churches , take their scope without orb , or order : and as clouds without rayn , carryed about with the wind of ambition , and covetousnes for the the greatest part . To leave them , and come to your reasons Mr B. by which you would prove , that tell the Church , is tell the governours . But here behold the fruites of an vnstable mind . This man in his former book laboured by many scriptures , and reasons to lay downe the nature of the Churches government , and in speciall to prove , that the Church , Math. 18. 17. to vvhich complaint of sinns was to be made , was the cheif officers onely , and this he affirmes also to be * the iudgement , and the practise of all reformed Churches . But lo now in his second book , he devoures the hallowed thing , and labours vvithall his power to persvvade † young divines , & seely country people , ( as he speakes ) ( and as in truth they had need be both young , and seely , that are perswaded by him ) that the points of discipline and Church-government are not so apparant by the scriptures , as that they can rightly iudge of them . And to this end he brings in the variety of iudgements , and contradictions of learned men , some holding no government at all , others that an externall government is to be had , but of these , some holding it alterable , others constant , and perpetuall , and of these some to be in the Pope , & Cardinalls , others in the body of the congregatiō , some in the Presbytery , with the peoples consent , and others , ( which he puts last , as best and for which he brings sundry reasons , referring the reader to the treatises written to that end ) in the Bishops his Lords . And againe touching the punishment of offenders , some he brings in holding excommunication , but not suspension , some holding both , and some neyther . And particularly for Math. 18. he musters in thick , and threefold reasons and persons so reasoning , and proving , that the place ( and so of Lev. 19. 17. ) doth nothing at all concern discipline , or ecclesiasticall censures , but that Christs meaning there was onely to direct the Iewes how to carry things before the Synedrion , in cases of bodily injury . And thus he brings mens contrary opinions to darken the scriptures , which are most playne , like so many foul feet to trouble the pure fountaynes of living water , that the thirsty may not drink of them . And as a learned man in our age , & nation , to discover the vanity of prognosticatours , gathered together their contrary guesses of the wether , and so presented them : so this man to make the government of Christs Church as vncertayne as an Almanack , sets together , and so offers to the vvievv of the world the contrarieties of opinions concerning it . Now if other men should take this course Mr B. doth , in other points of religion , and one lay down the differences that are about predestination & the points depending vpon it , some vtterly denying it , others affirming it , and of these some grounding it vpon Gods mere grace , others vpō mans faith , or workes foreseen : an other about baptisme , some denying it to all infants , others ministring it to all , others to such onely as are of Christian parents in a sort , and others onely to them that are of beleeving parents , at the least on the one side : a third about the Lords supper , in which point some hold transubstantiation , others consubstantiation , others onely a sacramentall vnion , which some also will have merely rationall , others reall also : there could not be a playner way beaten for all Atheism to come into the world by , nor a course devised by the Divell more pregnant to perswade the multitude , that there were no certaynty , nor soundnes in the scriptures . But let God have the glorie of his truth , and of the clearnes in it , and let men bear the just blame , and shame of their naturall blyndnes : and in speciall let Christ have the honour of being as * faythfull in his owne house , as Moses was in his Maisters , in setting orders and officers in it and let not vile flesh dare to flatter Princes and Prelates , to mislead silly soules , and to preach liberty and licentiousnes to the world , make Christ Iesus an Idol King , having a kingdome vpon earth without lawes , or officers , for the administring of it : nor to make his redeemed , Idoll subjects , as whom it concerns little or nothing , whether they be vnder Chrits lawes , and officers , or vnder Antichrists his professed adversary . Now though I will not trouble my self , and the reader about every stone , that Mr. B. idely casts in the way , yet such as may stumble the weakest passenger , I will remove , and so returne to my former task . And in the first place I will answer certaine reasons in number six , brought by Mr B. for the superiority of his Lord Bishops : but those not backed with the scriptures , as in other points ( when he thinks he speaks the truth ) his manner is . The first is taken from the succession of Iames at Ierusalem , of Peter at Antioch , of Peter & Paul at Rome , & of Mark at Alexandria . I answer first , that these were not Bishops set over certayn Churches here , and there , ( though vpon occasion they tarryed some good space in some certayne Churches ) but generall men , Apostles , and Evangelists , without successours in their Offices : & so the Protestants do generally answer the Papists instancing them , as you do now . 2. I deny the very Apostles vsed any such Lordly and Papall authority , as to exclude eyther the inferiour officers , or people in Church affaires : the contrary is most evident in the choice of officers , Act. 1. 15. 23. 26. and 6. 1. 2. 3. 5. censuring of offenders ▪ 1 Cor. 5. and debating of other Church matters . Act. 15. 2. 3. 4. 6. 7. 22. 23. 30. & 21. 22. The 2. Argument is taken from 1 Cor. 12. 28. where , say you , three degrees are reckoned vp , the first of Apostles , the second of Prophets , the third of Teachers . But since the tvvo former orders , vvhich are Apostles , and Prophets , are ceased as being temporary , how can there be superioritie in the third , which is but one ? Your third and fourth Argument you draw from the superioritie ordayned by God in the old testament , amongst ecclesiasticall persons : and the consequence of this Argument you prove two wayes : first bycause this order is not forbidden in the new testament : 2. bycause the ground of superiority is alike in the new testament , as in the old which is to preserve order . But do you not consider Mr Bernard that * the old testament or law is abrogated , and disanulled , as having the shadow of good things to come ? and so every order , and ordinance in it , which is not plainly renued by Christ in the new ? And where you seem to make the Chief Priests besides the high Preist , a superiour order to the other formally differing , it is more ( if I be not deceived ) then can be proved by the word of God. I know no diversity of administrations amongst them , but that any of the Priests might in their course , and order offer sacrifice , & performe other the most solemne duties of preisthood . But where you further adde that onely the high Priest did type out Christ , and not the other Preists so : you are much mistaken . The whole preisthood of Aaron , † vnder which the law was established , was a type of Christs Preisthood ( though the high Preists in a speciall manner ) and their sacrifices , of his : and being a part of the law ( which was a shadow or first draught , whereof the gospel is the lively portrature ) it must needs be ceremoniall , and so a type : & to affirm otherwise is a grosse Iewish errour . Lastly as I graunt one end of the subordination of Ministeries to have been the preserving of order , so I deny that same order is to be preserved in the nevv testament , and in the old . The order of the old testament was the order of a nationall Church , but the order of the new testament is the order of a particular Church , wherein there needs no such subordination of Ministeries as in the other which was nationall , the ey of common sense sees this difference . The law of nature whether written in the hart of man , or to be seen in the workmanship of the world , from which you draw your fift Argument , doth not prove superioritie amongst officers in a particular assembly , but onely that there must be government in all societies , which may well be , though the governours be of one order , and rank . Lastly they against whom you deale , doe mainteyne ( as you say ) an inequality in their government , in making the Pastor superiour to the Teacher . &c. and if they do so , why deal you against them ? and why do you labour so carefully to prove against them their own practise to be lawful ? though if they had not better warrāt then you bring , they were ill bestead . But this is the point , Mr B. ( which you never touch ) do they which hold two kindes of officers , teaching , and governing Elders , or they which hold three orders , Pastors , Teachers , and governing Elders , eyther of them both hold such a superioritie , as gives the superiour jurisdiction over the inferiour Ministers ? do they make a Bishop of Bishops , or a sheepheard over a flock of sheepheards ? or do they set vp any such ravenous creature , as devours the liberty , and power both of the people , and other officers , as your Bishops do , even as * the leane and evill favoured kyne , which Ioseph saw in his dreame , ate vp the fat kyne , and welfavoured : And for the erroneous exposition of Luke , Luk. 22. 25. 26. by D. Downame , and D. Dove , of which you boast , it hath been confuted both before , and since they gave it . Now howsoever I purpose not the refutation of every particular in Mr B. second volume , which he might have drawen into as few lynes well nigh as he hath done leaves , had he not rather desired to have vttered many words , then many things : yet seing how he labours , even till sweating , to trouble the mindes of his young students , and seely countrymen , especially about the government , & discipline of the Church , not caring how absurd expositions of scriptures he admits of , nor how contrary one vnto an other , so he may weaken the faith of any that way , I will not therefore altogether hold off myne hand , but will open as I goe , his vnsound dealing in this case , especially about Mat. 18. 15. 16. 17. which he will no way have meant of the piscipline or censures of the Church , & the order of proceeding therein , but that Christs meaning there , is to direct the Iewes how to prosecute their suits in matter of injury before the heathenish Magistrates . And this he labours , p. 218. 219. and so on , to prove by many obiections , & answers , yet ( as borrowed from other mens books ) so put out as other mens sayings , that by this meanes he himself may avoyd some part of that iust hatred , by the better sort of people , which he knowes will ly vpon this odious and vngodly glosse . First then Mr Bernard graunts , pag. 212. that Christ hath left a government in his Church , and so consequently an order for the censuring of offenders , and he accounts the contrary opinion but a familisticall conceipt , and yet this truth he cannot let passe without some vntruth at the end of it , and therefore he addes that to this familisticall conceipt , the seely Brownists are drawn by force of their own grounds , which are because they will have all in the Church to be voluntary professours ; where voluntarynes is taken away by being vnder any government : to be subiect , & ruled is an estate far frō freedome : Christians loose thereby Christian liberty , &c. And say in good sooth Mr B. would you haue men vnvoluntary professours against their wills , their profession must eyther be voluntary , with their wills , or vnvoluntary , and against them . “ Noah prophesying the calling of the Gentiles of Iaphets line , foretells , that God will allure or perswade them to dwell in Shems tents . And the scriptures do expressely affirme , that the Churches were gathered by * perswasion , & voluntary submission vnto the gospel . And it is a strange thing , even above wonder , that any man should have preached so many yeares , and written so many books about religion , and yet not know , that the nature of religion is not to be constreyned , but perswaded . And tell me ( Mr B. ) did you subscribe the last tyme vnto your Bishops government sponte & ex animo , according to the Canon , yea , or no ? Of if you think that to curious a quaestion , answer me , whether you be vnder the Kings goverment voluntarily , or against your will ? If against your will , it is a treacherous disposition in you : if voluntarily , or willingly , how seelely then do you ( which are thus rife in imputing seelines vnto others ) argue , that voluntarines is taken away by being vnder any government ? as though all government were tyranny , and all obedience slaverie : but reason , why Mr B. should thus speak , know I none , except it be , bycause in the Church of England the Ecclesiasticall government of & canonicall obedience vnto the Praelates is such , as he speakes of ▪ by which Christians indeed loose Christian liberty : but in the easy yoke of Christ it is not so . And if Christians must be subiect to * Princes in civil affaires for conscience sake ( then which nothing is more voluntary , ) how much more is the subiection of the saints vnto the government of Christ , most free and voluntary , yea by how much more full and entyre Christs government is over the Saincts whether within , or without , by so much more voluntary , and free , is their obedience both wayes . And so passe on to the thing I che●●ly intend , and that is to shew , that if there be a government left for the Ch : , and order set for the punishment of offenders by Christ the King thereof , that then this 18. of Mat. is the place , where that order is to be found . Let Mr B : that I may vse his own words , Pag. 224. 225. declare where els is ( not a more perfect rule , but ) any rule for it left by Christ , or not any supply , but any mention made , els where &c. The reasons now follow in the next place by which Mr B. would prove that Christ Iesus , Mat. 18. 15. 16. 17. speakes not of Church admonitions , and censures , but of private injuries , and the civil menaging of them . His first reason is taken from the cohaerence of these verses with that which goes before in the Chapter : where Christ , admonisheth his disciples to take heed both of the offences that should be given , as also of offending others . True Mr B. for the meaning of Christ was not onely to prepare them against the manisold scandals , and stumbling stones of offence ( especially in the new kingdom to which he prepared thē ) which Satan would cast before them every step they took , eyther to turne them out of the way of life , or to stop them in it : but also to lay strayt charge vpon them , that they for their parts cast no stumbling blocks before others : admonishing them very severely neyther easily to take nor to give offence . And because through pride in our selves , and contempt of others we are imboldened to give offence , especially to them , in whom we behold any great infirmities , our saviour Christ proceeds to shew what great care the Lord takes for the meanest of his , and what account he makes of them , teaching them all moderation and compassion towards them in their infirmities . But least any should then say , if it be so , the best way is to let men alone in their sinnes , Christ prescribes a remedy for this evill , even that golden mean , v. 15. 16. 17. that we should neyther be bitter or rigorous towards them to cause them to scandalize , nor yet so remisse , as by connivency to flatter them in their sinnes . For the occasion of the words , & the Argument taken from it , bycause the authour puts it downe , not as he proves it to be , but as it is thought , I passe it by as one of the thoughts spoken of by the wise man , in the Prov. and with it the scope , which he tells vs , is held to be a moderating of the Iewes passion for private iniuries offred , as being both together , & with them the exposition also in the 4. place , as being onely so many beggings of the quaestion in hand . The sum of which exposition is ( for to relate all Mr Bernards words were too tedious ) that if one Iew offred an other iniury , and would not satisfy him when he required it , eyther privately or with a witnes or two , the party iniured was to complayne to the Iewish Synedrion , and if that would not serve the turne , he might if he would proceed with him , and bring him before the Romayn power , and sue him at Caesars ●arr , as if he were a publican , or heathen . The reasons novv to prove this interpretation follovv . And the first is because Christ spake according no the tyme , as Mat. 5. 23. 26. It followes not that because Christ so spake that one tyme , and in that one place , that therefore , he so speaks here . What is lesse forceable ? 2. As Christ in that place spake both ecclesiastically and civily , as you expresly affirm , so , if you graunt in proportion , that he speakes here both civily for injuries , and ecclesiastically for sinnes , you speak truth enough at the least to overthrow your self . Your second and third proofs taken from Peters vnderstanding of Christ , and Christs answer againe in the parable ( though it were no straunge thing for Peter to vnderstand that civily , which Christ spake spiritually , nor for Christ to reply according to the present vnderstanding ) do not shew that Christs speach is to be restreyned to personall iniuries : the contrary shall appeare by , and by : And the same answer may serve to the 4. and 6. Argument . The fifth Argument is taken from the propriety of speach in the text : as first because Christ sayth , against thee , which ( say you ) shewes the offence to be private , &c. I graunt it , and that Christ there fetches his beginning from private , or rather from secret offences , and sinnes , which being knowen vnto one onely , may by one be remitted . Your second Argument is drawne from this terme brother , which shewes ( say you ) that Christ meant the Iewes , whom alone both the Iewes and disciples of Christ did account brethren . If Christ meant onely Iewes , what makes it matter , if the Iewes onely were brethren , that is of the Church ? but it is not true you say , that onely Iewes were accounted brethren by the disciples of Christ at that time : Christ shewes that they which beleeve , and obey his words , are his , and so his disciples * brethren as did amongst others , † many of the Samaritans , which were no Iewes , long before this time . That these words thou hast gayned or wonne thy brother , shew an alienation of mind in the party that doth the iniurie , is idle , as the former . For the alienation of mind will rather be in him that hath received the injurie , which a man may do of ignorance , self love , covetousnes , or other by regards , without any change of his affection towards the person injured : the words in truth shew , that the lost sheep is found , the sinner converted . The next words are , let him be to thee , which , you tell vs , shewes such a Church as the offender might not regard , and so the plantiffe vnremyed might seek further . If you meane by these words might not regard , that he might lawfully not regard it , you erre ; if that he might be so wicked , as not to regard , it is no new thing for wicked persons to disregard the Church of Christ. Your addition of dismissing to further proceeding , is your owne , and so I leave it to you . And the reason why Christ sayth , let him be to thee is , bycause the brother spoken to was the first and principall in the accusation : as vnder the law , the accuser of the false Prophet must “ first haue his hand vpon him , whom the rest of the people must follow in putting him to death . The last words Publican and Heathen do not declare that Christ speakes of the Iewes at that time eyther onely , or civily , but serve for other purposes , as I shall presently manifest , taking Arguments from these words , as from all the rest , to prove , that Christ here speakes of sinne , and of excommunication for sinne . My first Reason I draw from the cohaerence , wherein I have formerly manifested , Christ speakes not of private injuries onely , but of all such scandalles , as are to be found in that streyt way to heavē : no nor of injuries at all as they hurt the outward man , but as they are sinnes , and hurt , and hinder the soul in the way of godlynes : and so by the consequence of cohaerence , ( if Christs words hang one vpon an other ) he speaks v. 15. 16. 17. of sinne and the carying of it . 2. I reason from the terme brother , which , since it apperteyned at this tyme frō the disciples , to many , which might not be brought before the Iewish Synedrion , as to the beleeving Romaynes , Samaritans , and the like , cannot be meant as is pretended , but speaks of a religious fellowship to which any brother may be brought , of what country , or condition soever . As the word ha●artáno , turned offend , is of generall signification by your own graunt , and so cannot be restreyned to that particular kind of offence : so is it most properly vsed for sinne , and that vsually by this Evangelist . Mat. 3. 6. & 9. 2. & 12. 31. and 26. 28. and which is specially to be observed , when Luke would speak of trespasses , or offences as sinnes against God , he vseth this word , but when in the same place he speaks of them , as of injuries against men , he vseth another word . Ch. 11. 4. And see how soundly Mr B. deales , when he should shew that the word turned offend is not meant of sinnes , but of injuries , he brings in foure principall writers varying ( as he sayth ) about the word : and yet the vnadvised man considers not , that all four of them , as he himself alledges them , vnderstand it of sinne , and not one of them of injuries , & so speak against him . If Christ here spake of injuries , where he sayth , if he heare thee , thou hast wonne or gayned thy brother , he would haue sayd , thou hast wonne or gayned thy goods , or good name wherein he injuryed thee . If these words be meant of injuries , and wrongs , then Christ commaunds his disciples not to suffer wrongs at their brethrens hands , but to deal with them in the order here prescribed , for Christ expresly commaunds to tell the Church : and so Christs doctrine , and Pauls teaching the * suffring of wrong should contradict the one the other . By this exposition one Iew might account an other as an heathen , which was vtterly vnlawfull , he might not refuse religious communion with him in the temple , into which no heathen might come ; he might not deny him a portion in the land of Canaan the type of the kingdome of heaven : he might not account or call him other then a brother , whatsoever he were , till the time came of the Iewes defraction or breaking off for vnbeleef . Act. 7. 2. & 22. 1. & 33. 1. Rom. 11. 17. This interpretation confirmes a point of Anabaptistry , namely , that it is not lawfull for brethren so remayning , to sue at Caesars barre , where it is most evident , that brethren alwayes might , and may , yea & ( such a case may fall out ) ought to sue , without any alienation of affection , or such heathenish thought one of another , as Mr B. would have Christ in this place to commend vnto them : for even these last words let him be to thee as an heathen and publican are a commaundement , as † let your speach be yea , yea , nay , nay , & hundreds others delivered in the scriptures vnder the same form of words . And to conclude , Christ our Saviour in these words describes excommunication by the effects of it , which are , withdrawing from the brother obstinate in sinne , both in religious and civile fellowship and familiaritie , as the Iewes did withdraw both frō the Heathens , and Publicans in both . Ioh. 4. 9. Act. 10. 3. & 31. 28. Luk. 15. 2. & 15. 10. 11. And this very phrase Paul most clearely expounds , when he directs the Church , 1 Cor. 5. 11. not to be commingled with obstinate offenders , nor to eat with them : this ever provided , that no excommunication or other act in religion whatsoever , may dissolve eyther civil , or naturall societie . The next Reason is drawne from verse 18. where Christ ratifying in the hands of his Church this his power , speaks in expresse terms of binding , and loosing , not onely in earth , but in heaven also : which words , me thinks , alone should satisfie the conscience of any godly minded man , ( yea and stop the mouth of the most shameles ) that Christ speaks of sinne , and sin onely . Yet is Mr B. neyther satisfied , nor silent , but replyes , that binding , and loosing in this place is not properly , or onely to be vnderstood of Christs Ministers : but is allowed to private persons , and for this , pag. 223 he brings sundry reasons ▪ Consider , Reader , this severe censurer of Mr Smythes vnstablenes : Mr B. in his former book , pag. 95. will have this power of binding , and loosing spoken of in this place to be in the officers of the Ch● , two or three , and at no hand in private persons : and for this there he brings sundry reasons : in this his next book , this power is ●l●t●ed to two or three private persons , and must not be drawne to the Ministerie onely , and for this , he brings as many reasons . Observe further , the very sum of Mr B. answer is , that Christ speaks not here of binding , and loosing in the office of Ministerie . So we affirm , & that by two or three having this power cannot be meant two or three Ministers , considered severally from the body , which alone are not the Church for any publick administration , but the officers of the Church : but by two or three are meant the meanest cōmunion or societie of saints whether with officers , or without officers . And is this a sufficient answering of an adversary to bring sundry reasons to prove the very thing , which he affirmes ? Adde to all these , that where the injuries offred to Christs disciples , and such as would respect his direction , were vsually for the profession of Christ , it had been a most idle course to have complayned eyther to the Iewish Synedrion , or Romish Magistracy , which would have added injurie to injurie . Lastly , where Christ , v. 23. in his answer to Peters quaestion , makes the protasis or first part of his comparison the kingdom of heaven which is the Church he shewes plainely , that all the while he hath spoken of Church affaires , and the carying of them . And thus much to prove that the Lord Iesus the King of his Church hath left in this 18. of Math ▪ a rule , & order for the punishment of offenders in it . But this tedious matter is not yet ended . For Mr B. marshals in eight fresh reasons , to force all the reformed Churches in the world with vs , to give over this hold of Mat. 18. pag. 224. 225. 226. of this his last book : the best is they are of no great strength . The first is a bare affirmation that the former exposition by me confuted is true . His second Reason is bycause Christ hath erected no government in his Church ; ( for why he should adde by publick doctrine I see not , except he would insinuate , that Christ taught this point privately , and in a corner ) but for this brings he no one scripture or reason : as if his bare vvord vvere enough to stablish an Idoll King in his Church , vvithout officers , or lavves . Where notvvithstanding in his former book , pag 90. 91. 92. 93. he proves by many scriptures that Christ hath given officers for the government of his Church : which no man denyes , but himself . In the third place he affirmes , that Christ by the Church meanes not the Iewish Synedrion , wherin I assent vnto his saying , for reason brings he none . Touching the nature of the Churches government ( which he gropes at in the fourth place ) I have spoken els where . The 5. Reason followeth , which comprehends vnder it many petty Reasons , and amongst other the 6 , 7 , and 8 in order : which save for the shew in the margent of 8. distinct numbred Reasons , might vvel enough haue ben spared . The sum is that this 18. of Mat. is no perfect rule of discipline : the reasōs are bycause neyther all sorts of sins are here brought in , nor all the parts of discipline here comprehended . And hovv do these things appear ? First bycause a man is here to proceed onely for trespasses , or as it is better turned for offences , against himself , but not for sinne against God , against the Magistrate , or against an other . But here you should have remembred Mr B. that * sin , being the transgression of the law , is onely against God , to speak properly , and therefore David , notwithstanding his defiling of Bath sheba , and murdering of Vrijah confesseth that he had “ sinned against God onely . But as the same transgression is so cōmitted , as man scandalizeth , or takes offence at it ▪ so it is a sinne against him : whether the deed done respect God or man , yea man or beast , publick or private person , a mans self , or others in the object : and so he may forgive it after the order prescribed by Christ. And where by way of exception you demaund how one man can remit trespasses done against an other ? it is true it cannot be , if by trespasses be meant personall injuries : but considering the same trespasses , as they are sinnes against God , at which a brother takes offence , so the brother offended may forgive them vpon the offenders repentance . And asking how men can forgive rebellion against God , you seem to haue forgotten yourself : for in the very leaf next before going , you both graunt and prove that not onely Ministers by vertue of their office , but private persons also may bind and loose sinnes . The thing it self you grant , and for the manner of it , it is as they save , by manifesting , and making knowne outwardly salvation , and the forgivenes of sinnes . To your third objection concerning the keeping secret of publick crymes against the Magistrate vpon the offenders repentance , you answer yourself , for if they be publick , or of publick nature , they may not be kept secret , neyther are they capable of the order of secret dealing in them . And here falles into consideration your seventh Reason , which is , that if discipline be grounded vpon Mat. 18. then the Church must iudge in civil affaires , and enter vpon the bounds of the Magistrate . And are you ignorant Mr B. that civil actions , as they draw scādalous sin , with them , may be censured ecclesiastically , as may also religious actions be punished civily by the Magistrate , which is the preserver of both tables , & so to punish all breaches of both , specially such as draw with them the violation of the positive lawes of kingdomes , or disturbance of common peace ? Take your own instance of murder . The Magistrate is to punish it civilly in all his subjects , whether the parties repent or no ; the Church is to censure it ecclesiastically in her members , yea though the Magistrate pardon or passe by it , except the parties delinquent repent , for then they are to be forgiven . And what vsurpation is here vpon the Magistracy ? you to suppress Gods ordinance do flatter the Magistrate , and accuse the innocent . Next you except , that this of Mat. is a rule for sinnes private , and more secret , but not for publick and open sinne . You might as well say that the patterne of prayer prescribed by Christ , Mat. 6. is not perfect , nor a rule for private prayer , or for things concerning our selves onely , bycause it teacheth vs to say , Our father , & forgive vs our sinnes . But who knowes not , that generalls include their specialties vnder them ? The Lord Iesus in teaching his disciples to say , forgive vs our sinnes ioyntly , teacheth them in the same place to ask forgivenes eyther of their own sinnes , or the sinnes of others severally , as occasion serves : so in teaching here all the degrees of admonition ioyntly , he implyes also the dealing in any one of them severally , if there be occasion . And this exposition of Mr B. can I not fitlyer resemble then to the practise of some silly pursevant , that , being sent to attach some traytour , or other malefactour dwelling in Barwick , and so to bring him to the Court , if he should meet the party by the way , would refuse to medle with him , and would say , that he was sent to Barw : to fetch him , and would eyther bring him from thence , or would let him alone . And it seems , if Mr B. might construe his cōmmission , he would so advise him . But would not common sense teach a man , that the nearer he met with the party he ●ought , the more labour were spared , and that he were to apprehend him where he found him ? So where Christ sends his disciples to deal with sinne a farre off , as it were , and in the first , & vtmost degree , but if it be come nearer , and be found in the 2. or 3. degree , it is to be taken where it is found . If it be secret , and yet rest betwixt the brother offēding , & offended , it must there be dealt with : if it become nearer the court , and be wrought before two , or three , or more , it must there , and in that order be vndertaken , the first degree is over , and that labour spared : if it be of publick nature , or publikly cōmitted , the two former degrees are past , and the labour in them spared : the sin must be dealt with accordingly . And the Church eyther by information from any brother or brethren , or by immediate notice taken , may convent or call for the offender , that he which sinned publikly , may publiquely be rebuled . And this may serue for answer to the 8. and last exception . Now for allowing of the plaintiffe to seek further remedy , & of the referring of the party obstinate vnto him , which is the sum of the sixt Arg : as also of these terms , let him be to thee as an heathen and publican , which is an other exception , together with that consideration , that the party offended is the principall in all the degrees of proceeding , I have formerly spoken in the exposition of the words , to which the reader is to look back for answer , if such idle conjecture give any cause of doubt to any . One onely blow more is to be warded , by which Mr B. would disable this 18. of Math. from being any rule of discipline , and that is , bycause it provides not for suspension , we grant it doth not : and you your self half graunt , that no such thing is to be found in the new testament . And what reason haue you , or any other man to put vs to prove your corruptions and devises , which you know we neyther practise , nor allow of ? These things thus ended , and the received exposition of Math. 18. confirmed , viz : that Christ in it prescribes a rule of discipline in the Church , I come to your reasons Mr B. in your first book by which you would prove that this Church is the chief governours . The first whereof is , that Christ could not be understood eyther then , or now , except he spake as the practise was then , or took some order afterward , and so you go about to prove vnto vs , that the chief governours onely had authoritie to excommunicate , both in the synagogues and in the Church of Corinth . To this I answer sundry things . First it followes not , that Christ was not then , or cannot now be vnderstood , except he spake with some such reference as you note . The words are so plaine , the order so equall , the state of the Church vnder the new testament ( which is not , as before , nationall , but a particular assembly ) so capable of such an ordinance , as that laying aside prejudice , and politick respects , there can be nothing more playnely spoken or more easily vnderstood . 2. It doth no way prejudice the exposition we give , though the disciples for the present vnderstood it not : they vnderstood litle , no not touching the death and resurrection of Christ , or nature of his kingdome when they were at the first taught them , till eyther by their own experience , or by the extraordinary gift of the Holy Ghost , or some other meanes , the thinges formerly taught them were brought to their remembrance . Mat. 16. 21. 22. & 20. 20. 21. Mark. 16. 14. Luk. 24. 20. 21. 22 — 25. 26. -44. And it is expressely affirmed , Act. 1. 3. that the Lord Iesus did the 40. dayes before his ascension instruct them in such things as concerned the kingdome of God , which is the Church . The next thing to be considered is your proofs from scripture , that the power of excommunication was in the chief governours . But the places proove no such thing . Ioh. 9. 22. and 12. 42. & 16. ● ▪ do onely prove an agreement amongst the Iewes , that such as confessed Christ should be dissynagogued : but that this authority was onely in the hands of the chief governours , cannot be thence collected . I know there was at Ierusalem a representative Church for the whole nation , of which we shall speak hereafter , but that there was such a Church representative in every synagogue , furnished with such power can never be concluded frō these scriptures . They rather in deed prove the contrarie . It is sayd Ioh. 9. 22. that the Iewes had ordeyned , that such as confessed Christ , should be dissynagogued : which words do rather interest the people in the busines then otherwise . If you think , that because there is mention made of † the Pharisees , the officers onely are meant , you are deceived . For Pharisaism amongst the Iewes was not an office , but a sect . There were no other lawfull officers ecclesiasticall amongst them , but “ the Levites whom the Lord took from among the children of Israel in stead of the first borne for his service : but many of the Pharisees , were of other tribes . Phil. 3. 5. Besides , I see no sufficient reason to perswade me , that this casting out of the synagogue was any ecclesiasticall censure , but rather a violent rejection or extrusion out of the place : as nothing was more cōmon then such tumultuous outrages in those dayes . And the very same word that Iohn vseth , ch . 9. ver . 35. Luke vseth ch . 4. 28. 29. for the violent extrusion of Christ himself by the Iewes , vpon the like occasion , both out of the synagogue , and citie . The same also doth Iohn himself vse , ch . 2. 15. speaking of Christs casting the mony chaungers out of the temple . And yet neyther the NAZARITES excommunicate CHRIST , nor CHRIST the mony-chaungers . But if there were amongst the Iewes at that tyme any such distinct ordinance of excommunication ecclesiasticall , it was a Iewish devise , ( I am perswaded ) and without ground of the scriptures : and that for these causes . First every blasphemer , or worshipper of vnknowen Gods was by the law of Moses to dy the death without redemption , that so evill might be put from Israell , Exod. 22. 20. Lev. 24. 16. Deut. 13. 6. 7. 8. 9 — 12. 13. 14. 15. And so the Iewes reputing this blind man such a one , were to put him to death : but being deprived of this power by the Romayns , through the just judgement of God for their sinnes , they devised this other course of dissynagogueing , or excommunicating offendours by them so deemed . Secondly the severall synagogues were not distinct Churches , but members of that one nationall Church , which was both representatively , and originally at Ierusalem : neyther could any of them excommunicate out of the temple , which was a higher communion then theirs : and so it is very probable that Christ found this blind man afterwards in the temple , Ioh. 9. 38. compared with 10. 22. into which ( had he been ecclesiastically excommunicated ) he might not haue entred : neyther hangs it together , that any rejected in the communion of the synagogue , might be received in the communion of the temple . 3. The Lord did chuse the whole nation of the Iewes to be his peculiar people , and took all and every one of them into covenant with himself , gave them the Land of Canaan for an inheritance , as a type of the kingdome of heaven , erected a policy over them , civil , & ecclesiasticall , in the judiciall & ceremonial law , called the old testamēt , making the same persons & all of them , though in divers respects the Church , & the cōmon wealth , whervpō the Church is also called the common wealth of Israel . Exod. 19. 5. 6. Lev. 20. 24. 26. Deut. 4. 6. 7. & 29. 2. 10. 11. 12. Ios. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. Rom. 9. 4 Ephe. 2. 12. Hence it followeth , that except a man might enjoy one type of the kingdom of heavē , as was the Land of Canaā , & not an other , as was the temple , or tabernacle , Heb. 9. 24. except he might be vnder one part of the old testament , or covenant of God , namely the judicial law for the common wealth , and not vnder an other part of it , the ceremoniall law for the Church , it cannot be that any such ordinance as excommunication could be vsed lawfully in the Iewish Church . Yet do I not deny but that the lepers & other persons legally vnclean were for a time debarred frō the cōmuniō of the Church , and from all the sacrifices , and services thereof , but this inhibition say I , was no way in the nature of an excommunication . For first it was for ceremoniall vncleannes , issues , leprosy , and the like , which were not sinnes , but punishments of sinnes at the most . 2. It did not onely exclude men from the communion of the Church , but of the common wealth also , and the affaires thereof . 3. It did not agree in the end with excommunication . The end of excommunication is the repentance of the party excōmunicated , 1 Cor. 5. 5. but the person legally vncleane , whether he repented , or no , was to bear his shame till the date of his time were out , yea to his dying day , if his disease continued so long . Lev. 12. & 13. & 14. Num. 5. 2. 3. 4. & 12. 10. 14. 2 Chron. 26. 19. 20. 21. A type I confesse it was of excommunication , as legall pollution was of morall sin : whence I also conclude that the type , and thing typed outwardly could not both stand together . But here it vvilbe demaunded of me , did not the Lord require in the Iewish Church true , morall , and spirituall holynes also ? God forbid I should run vpon that desperate rock of Anabaptistry . The Lord was holy then as now , and so would have his people be then holy , as now . Yea so jealous was the Lord over his people that he took order then as well as now , that no sin should be suffered vnreformed , no obstinate sinner vncut off . Some sinnes were of that nature , as he that committed them was by the law to dy the death without pardon , or partialitie , & so to be cut off from the Lords people . Lev. 20. And when other sinnes not of that nature were committed , whether of ignorance , or otherwise , the party offending was to be told , and admonished of his offence , and so to manifest his repentance by the confefs●on of his sinne , and professiō of his faith in the mediatour , by offering his appointed sacrifice , and so his sinne was forgiven him . Lev. 4. 13. 14. 15. — 20. 21 23 — 26. 27. 28. 35. & 5. 1. 3. 4. 5. 6. — 10. & 19. 17. Num. 5. 6. 7. But now if there were with the least sinne joyned obstinacy , or presumption , the party so sinning was to be cut off from his people , Num. 15. 30. 31. 32. 34. 36. Deut. 17. 12. and for this cause the Iewes were so oft admonished to * destroy the workers of wickednes , that there should be no wickednes amongst them , that they should take away evil from Israel , and from forth of the middest of them . And vpon this ground doth David as the cheif Magistrate , whom this busines cheifly concerned , vow his service vnto God in this kind , and that he would even * betimes destroy all the wicked of the land , that he might cut off the workers of iniquity from the city of the Lord : though he afterwards fayled in the execution of this dutie . And to the very same end did “ Asa the King with all the people enter a covenant of oath , to seek the Lord God of their fathers , with all their hart , and with all their soule : and that whosoever would not seek the Lord God of Israel should be slaine , whether be were small or great , man or woman . To end this point , vpon which I have insisted something the longer for sundry purposes in their place to be manifested : as the Lord vsually conveyed spirituall both blessings , and curses vnto the Iewes vnder those which were bodily , so here was the spirituall judgement of excommunication comprehended vnder this bodily judgement of death , by which the party delinquent was wholy cut off visibly from the Lords covenant , and people . That which you adde of Cloes cōplaint made to the cheif governour the Apostle , is true , but misapplyed . You make an erroneous collection from it out of your owne lamentable experience . Bycause your Church of Worxsop can reforme no abuse within it self , but must complain to your Lords grace of York ▪ or his substitute , therfore you imagine the Church of Corinth to have been in the same bōdage , wherein you are : and Cloe to have complayned to Pauls court . But it is playn Mr B. to them that do not shut their eyes , and harden their hearts against the truth : that the Church of Corinth was planted in the liberty of the gospell , and had this power of Christ to reform abuses , and to excommunicate offenders , without sending to Paul from one part of the world to an other , and that the Corinthians Ch. 5. are reproved for fayling in this duty . And had Mr B. but taken this course in his writing , that two of his leaves had hung together , he might have spared this objection , considering what he writ , pag. 92. that the same persons have the power to preach , administer the sacraments , and excommunicate : for that he meanes by government . Now he cannot be ignorant , that both the power , and practise of preaching , & administring the sacraments were in the Church of Corinth in Pauls absence . 1 Cor. 11. 20. & 14. 1. &c. And so by your own graunt the Church of Corinth had power to excommunicate though Paul were absent . Wherevpon I also infer it was their sinne not to vse it . Now for the practise of Cloes family , wee know Paul was an Apostle , and generall Officer , and so intitled to the affaires in all the Churches in the world : wherevpon Cloe complayned vnto him of such abuses in the Church as were both of publick nature , and which the Church vvould not reform : otherwise it had been both slaunder , and solly to have complayned . And what corne doth this winde shake ? Do wee make it vnlawfull for any member to informe the officers of publique enormities in the Church , that they according to their places might see reformation of them ? Yea if the Pastor , or other principall Officer of the Church were absent necessarily , we doubt not but it were the duety of any brother , or brethren in the like case , to entreat their help for the direction , reproofe , and reformation of the Church , for any publick enormities there done , or suffered : who might also judge , and condemne the same themselves , and for their parts , exhorting , and directing the whole Church in their publique meeting to do the like as Paul did . Your three next Arguments to prove that tell the Church , is tell the Officers , are idle descants vpon the formes , and phrases of speach scraped together to fill your book with . First you affirm that Christ having spoken in the third person tell the Church when he comes to ratify the authoritie to be committed to his Apostles , turnes his speach to the 2. person , not saying , what it , but what you shall bind , and loose , &c. In so saying you give the cause , though you presently eat vp your own graunt . For you affirm , that by the Church ▪ ver . 17. is meant the whole body , of which Christ speaks in the third person : and what say wee more ? But where you adde that the authoritie is not given till the 18. vers . and that then Christ turns his speach to his Apostles , it is your own devised glosse . For first it is evident , that Christ establisheth the power of binding , and loosing in the hands of the Church , speaking in the 3. person , v. 17. & that so firmely , as what brother soever refuseth to heare her voice is to be expelled from all religious cōmunion . Vnto this the 18. v. is added partly for explanation , and partly for confirmation . For where as the party admonished might say with himself , well , if the Church disclaim mee , I shall disclaym it , if it condemn me , I shall condemn it again , the Lord doth here back the Churches censures for her incouragement , and for the terrour of the refractary , despising her voice , and that vnder a contestation , that what she bindes , and looseth vpon earth , ( namely after his will ) he also will bind , and loose in heaven . And for the change of persons in the 17. and 18 , verses , it is merely grammaticall , and not naturall . It is common with the Holy Ghost , sometimes for elegancy , sometimes for explication , sometimes for further inforcement of the same thing , to , and vpon the same persons , thus to vary the phrase of speach in the first , second , or third person grammatically , as the reader may take a tast in these particulars . Psal. 75. 1. Is. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. &c. Math. 5. 10. 11. 12. &c. and in this very Chapt. v. 7. 8. Rom. 6. 14. 15. 16. & 8. 4. 5. 12. 13. &c. Your 3. Reason , that , bycause Christ speakes of a few , two , or three gathered together , therefore he meanes the officers of the Church , and not all the body , is of no force , if the body consist but of two , or three , as it comes to passe , where Churches are raysed in persecution , as the most true Churches are . Yet if Christ do speak of two or three officers of a Church , gathered together in his name , he speaks against you , where all the power of the keyes over many 1000. Churches are in the hands of two Arch-Prelates , and from them delegated and derived to their severall vnderlings . But the truth is , that gratious promise , which Christ here layes downe , for the comfort of all his saints , you do engrosse into the hands of a few Elders . You might aswel affirme , that onely two or three officers gathered together , have a promise to be heard in their prayers , and not a communion of two or three brethren , for Christ , v. 19. 20. speakes principally , and expressely of prayer , though with reference to the binding , and loosing of sin , which ( as all other ordinances ) are sanctified by prayer . The very scope of the place , and reason of the speach is this . The Lord Iesus had v : 18. enfranchised the Church , with a most excellent , and honourable priveledge : now the disciples did already see with their own eyes , and were more fully taught by their Maister , that the Church should arise from small , and base beginnings , and that it was also , by reason of persequution , subject to great dissipation . Math. 7. 14. & 10. 17. 18. 22. 23. & 13. 31. 32. least therefore their harts should be discouraged , and they , or others , driven into suspition , that the Lord would any way neglect them , or his promise towards them for their paucity , and meannes , he most gratiously prevents , and frees them from that jealousy , & telles them and all others , for their comfort , that though the Church , or assembly consist but of two or three ( as such beginnings the true Church of God had and have , ( though your English Church begū with a kingdome in a day ) Act. 16. 14. 15. & 17. 34. & 19. 7. yet that should no way diminish their power , or prejudice the accomplishment of his promise . And the reason hath been formerly rendred , bycause this power for binding , & loosing , being given to the fayth of Peter , depends not vpon the order of office , multitude of people , or dignity of person , but merely vpon the word of God. And hence is it that Christ thus gratiously descends even to two or three , wheresoever assembled in his name , yea though it be in a Cave , or Den of the earth : of which most gratious and necessary priveledge you would bereave them . Now in your 4. Reason out of v. 19 , you do most ignorantly erre in the grāmaticall construction : for you make a change of the person agayne , where there is no change at all . Christ speakes onely in the third person , as the originall makes it plaine , though the English tongue do not so distinctly manifest it to an ignorant man. Christ sayth not , whatsoever you two shall agree of , shal be given to them , that is to the Church , but whatsover two of you shall agree of , or consent in , they two that so agree shall obteyne it of God. Which words ( Mr B. ) you do most vnsufferably pervert , to the seducing of the ignorant : as if Christ had sayd , if two , or three of you officers , or you two or three officers , shall agree together of a thing , whatsoever they , that is the Church shall desire , namely of the Officers ( for so you expound the words ) it shal be givē them . where it is most evident that they which are to agree vpon the thing , they are to ask it , and that of God , who will give it them . And where the scripture sayth , that the brother offended ( speaking indefinitely of any brother , and so of the Officers themselves ) must complayn to the Church , M B. on the contrary ( as if he would even beard the Lord Iesus ) tells vs the Church must complayn to the Officers . Your 5. Reason followes with many litle ones in the womb of it , which you bring forth in order , to prove , that Christ speakes here figuratively , and that by the Church he means the governours . The first is . It agrees with the practise of the Iewish Church frō whence it is held , that the manner of governing in the Church is fetched . And is this the necessary proof you speak of ? whatsoever is so held , is so in truth . And yet in your second book , as hath been shewed , you bring in sundry men holding contrary things , as if contraries could be true . Well , I confesse it is so held , and that by many , with whom I would gladly consent , if the scriptures taught me not to hold otherwise . It had been good here the authour had shewed vs , what the government of the Iewish Church was , and not thus sleightily to have passed over things of this moment . For the purpose in hand thus much . The Church of the Iewes was a nationall Church , † the Lord separating vnto himself the whole natiō , frō all other nations , to be his people , and that he might be their God. And as one of the Lords ordinances suits with an other , and depends vpon an other , so from this nationall Church doth necessarily arise a representative Church . For where communion together in the holy things of God is an act , and operation of the Church , for the mutuall aedification of the parts , and that it was impossible , that the whole body of a nation should in the intire , simple , proper , or personall parts , & members communicate togeither , the Lord so ordered and disposed , that that communion should be had , and exercised after a manner , and in a sort , and that was by way of representation . And to this end the Lord made choise of one speciall place in the land , which he gave his people to possesse , at the first alterable , but afterwards constant , and vnchangeable , where he would haue his tabernacle pitched , and his temple built , where he would put his name , and dwell , and which he would honour above all places , with his glory and presence . There was also one onely tabernacle or temple , one high Preist , one altar , vnto which the whole nationall Church had reference , † thither must they bring all their sacrifices , tithes and offrings , “ thither were causes hard , and difficult to be brought , that the people might be shewed the sentence of iudgement , informed , and taught the law , by the Preists of the Levites . * There was the dayly sacrifice offred for the whole nationall Church , morning and evening continually , there the Lord appointed with the children of Israel , sanctifying the place with his glory , binding himself by his promise to dwell amongst them , and to be their God. There was “ the high Preist to cary graven vpon two onix stones , as the stones of remembrance of the children of Israel , put vpon the shoulders of the Eph●d , the names of the children of Israel according to their tribes , for a remembrance : and againe , the names of the children of Israel , according to their twelve tribes i● twelve stones set vpon the breast plate of iudgement vpon his heart , for a remembrance continually before the Lord. There was also † set vpon the pure table of Shittim wood in the tabernacle , twelve loaves of shew bread continually before the Lord , according to the twelve tribes of Israel for a remembrance . Now all these were ordinances representative , in a Church representative : and other Church representative amongst the Iewes , I neyther know , not acknowledge . And the ground of this representation was the necessary absence of the people represented . Necessary , I call it , whether we respect the ordinance of God inhibiting the peoples entrance into the place , where the most of these representations were made , or whether wee respect the impossibility of the whole nations ordinarie assembling , and communicating together . And herevpon it comes to passe , that all other Churches since , so framed , and of such qualitie , as that they cannot ordinarily assemble together , & keep communion , haue also as their images , or shadowes , their Churches representative . The catholik visible Ch : of Rome hath her visible Ch : representative , the Popes Cōsistory , or Colledge of Cardinalls , or the generall Council gathered by his authority . The nationall Church of Engl : , hath her nationall Church representative , the Convocation house : as have also the Provinciall and Diocesan Churches their representations , the Archbishops , & Bishops Consistories . But as the bodyes of these Churches are monstrous devises of mens braynes , ( there being no other Churches vnder the new testament but particular assemblies ) so are their shadowes , ( the Churches representative ) mere devises of devises . And to apply this nearer the purpose . Since the Church now consisteth not of one nation severed from all other nations , but of particular assemblies of faithfull people , separated from all other assemblies , which like so many distinct † flockes , do ordinarily heard together , and so communicate in the word , prayer , sacraments , & censures , and that where the Church grew sometimes greater by the suddayne , and extraordinary conversion of more then could well so assemble , then was there presently a dispersion of the former and a multiplication of more particular assemblies . Act. 2. 41. 42. & 8. 4. 5. 6. & 9. 31. & 14. 23. 27. & 15. 22. 30. Rev. 1. 4. 11. this rases the foundation of all representative Churches , as eyther politick devises , or at the best , praeposterous imitations of the Iewish Church , and polity . For ( as I have formerly sayd , and common sense teacheth it ) the foundation of representation is the necessary absence of that which is represented , whether person , or thing . And so since there is no necessity , that the body of a particular Church should be absent , but on the contrary a necessity , that the same be present , at and in all the publick administrations , and actions of communion in the Churches holy things , we do therefore disclaym as supersluous , and feyned , all representative Churches whatsoever . Secondly if the outward form of Church government now be fetched from the Iewish Church , then as in that representative Ch : there was an high Preist set over the rest , in whose person , and administration , the representation of the whole Church was most eminent , so must there now be also in this representative Church one officer over the rest , and as it were their high Preist . And so the catholik representative Church of Rome hath an vniversall Bishop the Pope over it : the Nationall , Provinciall , and Diocesan , Churches representative , Nationall , Provinciall , and Diocesan Bishops over them . And so in all equitie should the Synodes , and Praesbyteries , accounting themselves properly Churches , or bodies Ecclesiasticall , have their Officers over them : and so there should alwayes be one , or more Ministers over the Church of Ministers , and whose charge these Synodes and Presbyteries should be , to be fed by them . And the truth is , this reason fetcht from the Iewish Church , as it far better fitts the Praelates in England , then the Cōsistorians , so fitts it the Papists better then eyther of them both : for there is one Bishop over the catholick visible Church ( as they speak ) as there was one high Preist over the whole visible Ch : then . Adde vnto this , that if the representative Church at Ierusalem be a pattern for a representative Church vnto vs , then as there not onely hard causes were opened , & declared according to the law , but also the sacrifices offred , and most solemne services performed day , by day , without the presence of the body of the Church , so now in this our representative Church consisting of the officers onely , there must be not onely the vse of the keyes for admonitiō , and excommunication , but there must also be the preaching of the word , and ministring of the sacraments , ( which are our most solemn services ) whether the people be present or no. And to imagine a power of Christ in the Church of the officers for the vse of one solemne ordinance out of the communion of the body , & not for an other , hath no ground from the Iewish Church . Lastly , to fetch the form of govermēt for the Church now frō the Iewish Church , were to revive † the old testamēt , which so long since , is abrogated , and disanulled . For to speak properly the old testament is nothing but that externall policy instituted by Moses in the Iudiciall & ceremoniall law , for the dispensation of the typicall kingdome and Preisthood of Christ , shadowed out by that of “ Melchisedeck King and Preist : repraesented by the administrations of Moses , and Aaron : and after continued in the * Preisthood of the Levites , & † kingdome of David & his sonnes , till Christ , in the dispensation of those worldly , and carnall ordinances . Now as the judicialls , ( which were for the government of the Congregation civily ) are dead , and do not bind any civil polity , save as they were of common equity : so are the ceremonialls , ( which were for the Ch : polity ) deadly : and may not be revived by any Church , save as any of them have new life given by Christ. For though we now be made “ citizens of the common wealth of Israell , and one body with them , yet is that in respect of * the everlasting covenant confirmed of God with Abraham through Christ. ( I wil be thy God , and the God of thy seed ) four hundred and thirty yeares before the law was given , or the polity and government of the lewish , eyther church , or common wealth , in it established : and as we are the sonnes , and daughters of Abraham by faith , but no way in respect of those Iewish ordinances in in the old testament , or the order of dispensing them . And yet if it were graunted which you would have , that the Church governmēt now is to be patterned by the goverment of the Iewish church , then it would nothing avayle you for the purpose in hand . For the church officers the Preists , and Levites vnto whom † the charge of the whole Congregation , for the service of the tabernacle did apperteyne , had no authority by the order of their office to inflict any censure spiritually vpon the people , as had the civil Magistrates to punish them bodily . The Preists and Levites were onely to enterpret the law , and in cases extraordinarily difficult , to find out the estate of the person , or thing , and to shew what in such a case the law required : and if you will say , they gave judgement it was none otherwise , then as a Physitian gives ●●dgement of the body , or state of his patient by his faculty , or skill in his art : but to sit vpon them formally in judgement , & ecclesiastically to punish them , that they might not do : neyther are they called in the scriptures “ judges , as the civil Magistrates are . Yea the scriptures do make a playne difference where the civil Elders are to * sit , and iudge the people , but the † Preists to stand before the Congregation , and to minister vnto them . Now before we passe over this busines in hand , I deem it not amisse vpon this occasion , to observe a few things by way of answer to a scripture vsually brought out for the foundation of these representative churches and their power , and especially for these Nationall , and Provinciall Synodes , & the like . And the scripture is , Act. 15. 1. There was no synode , or assembly of the Officers of divers Churches , but onely certayne messengers sent from the church of Antiochia , to the Church of Ierusalem about the controversy there specified . 2. Neyther the Church of Antioch which sent the messengers , nor the church at Ierusalem whether they were sent , was a representative church , consisting of Officers , much lesse of chief officers onely . For first it is sayd , ver . 1. 2. that the brethren of Antiochia , which Ch. 14. 17. are called the church , and v. 28. the disciples , and in this chapt . v. 3. the church , and v. 23. the brethren sent their messengers with Paul and Barnabas to Ierusalem : and it will most evidently appeare by whom the message was sent , if we consider to whom the answer was returned . ver . 30. where the messengers did not deliver the Epistle till they had assembled the multitude . And 2. it is apparant that at Ierusalem , not onely the cheif officers the Apostles , yea and inferiour officers the Elders also , met together about it , and sent answer , but the brethren with them . v. 4. 12. 22. And these scriptures alone in this chapt . are sufficient to chalendge the liberty of the brethren in the discussing of publique cōtroversies out of the hands of all officers whatsoever . 3. Paul and Barnabas , went not to Ierusalem eyther for authority , or direction ; for being Apostles , they had both equall immediate authority from Christ , and equall infallible direction frō the holy Ghost , with the rest of the Apostles . Onely they went for countenance of the truth in respect of men , and for the stopping the mouthes of such deceivers as pretended they were sent by the Apostles . v. 24. 4. Their decrees were absolutely Apostolicall , and divine scripture by infallible direction from the holy Ghost , and so imposed vpon all other Churches of the Gentiles , though they had ●o delegates there , ver . 23. 28. Ch. 16. 4. But it wil be sayd , may not the officers of one , or many Churches meet together to discusse & consider of matters for the good of the Church , or Churches , and so be called a Church , Synode , or the like ? I deny it not , so they infringe no order of Christ , or liberty of the brethren , they may so do , and so be called in a sense : but the quaestion now is about such a Church , as is gathered for the publick administration of admonition , excommunication , & other the like ordinances of Christ , which Mr B. in his first book graunts “ must be done with the knowledge of the body of the Church , & and in the open assembly . And here falls into handling certayn borrowed stuffe † in Mr B. 2. book about this matter . As first , that Paul called the Elders of Ephesus , and conferred with them without the people , Act. 20. 27. which who denyes , but they which set vp a Lord Bishop to rule alone without advising with eyther the inferiour Ministers , or people . But that , which he addes in the next place , hath almost as many errours , as wordes in it , and that is , that the Elders sate in a Cōsistory , with Iames their Bishop at Ierusalem , without the people , and did decree a matter , without asking their voice . Act. 21. 18. First you erre in calling it a Consistory , or juditiall Court , for the justification of your own : where it was onely an occasionall meeting for advise . 2. in making Iames a Bishop whom Christ had made an Apostle . The Elders were Bishops , Act. 20. 17. 28. Phil. 1. 1. Tit. 1. ● . 7. And so if you would haue held any proportion you should haue made Iames an Archbishop . 3. that you make him their Bishop , where Bishops , or Overseers , are set over the flock , not over the Ministers , Act. 20. 28. 4. And most ignorantly , where you will have Iames & the Elders to make a decree for Paul , as if the Elders had authority over the Apostles ( for that is the drift of your argument ) or one Apostle over an other : or as if Paul were subject to Consistorian decrees . It was onely a matter of advise , that passed amongst them , as all men may see . An other observation Mr B. hath in this place , as idle as the rest : and that is , that the Elders are superiour vnto the people , bycause they are set before them , Act. 15. 22. 23. where if the bould and incōsiderate man had but read the 4. verse of the same Chapt : he should have seen the people set before the Officers : the very same alteration appeares ver . 2. & 12. so if his argument was of force , two contraries might be true , which is a repugnancy in nature . Yet deny we not but the officers are above the Church , in respect of the word , and doctrine they minister , and teach : but we deny the order of Elders to be superiour to the order of saynts , since it is not an order of Maystership , but of service . But I will from this place , Mr B. ( if I be not much deceived ) take a better argument to prove the cōtrary to that you say , namely , that the Church is an order superiour vnto the officers . And the reason is , bycause the Churches have authority to send the officers , as their messengers , v. 2. 3. 22. 32. Now they that send are ever in that respect , superiour vnto them that are sent . That which you adde in the last place , to wit , that the Apostles & Elders did acquaint the people with the matter , who consented , but had no authority to make the authority of the Apostles , & Elders nothing , is drawn out of the same cask with the former . In which speach , there is imperfectiō , cōtradictiō , & ignorance . Imperfection , wher you give the people no further liberty then to consent to the matter , being made acquainted with it . For in that it is sayd , ver : 12. that the multitude kept silence when they had heard Iames speak truly , & sufficiently , and that they held their peace , v : 13. when they heard Paul and Barnabas speak , it shewes they had also liberty of speaking in the matter , had they seen cause . Contradictions you speak , in affirming the people were to consent to the Elders , & yet in denying they could praejudice their power , & authority . For howsoever this be true for the Apostles , which were infallibly , and immediately directed by the H. Ghost in their determinations , vnto which all were bound absolutely to condiscend , as are all the saynts at the last day to the judgement to be passed by Christ vpon the reprobate , yet is it not so for the Elders ordinary , then , or now , which may erre , and be deceived . And so where there is liberty of consenting conditionally , and if men see cause , there is also liberty of dissenting , vpon the contrary occasion : and so this dissent of the body must eyther hinder the action , or els it is a mere mockery . Ignorance it is , in the last place to make equall the authority of the Apostles , and Elders in this decree . For the decree was merely Apostolicall ( to speak properly ) and framed by infallible direction of the Holy Ghost , ( which the Elders in themselves considered had not ) as appeareth , ver . 28. and was , and is , in the right end , and equitie of it , a part of the canonicall scriptures , in penning whereof the Elders had no hand : and so is imposed vpon the Churches of the Gentiles every where , ver . 23. with whom the Elders of Ierusalem had nothing to do , but onely the Apostles , which were generall men : so that neyther brethrē , nor Elders did more then consent to the decree it self , & that necessarily , as vnto a divine oracle . These things thus ended , I return to the Arguments in Mr Ber. first book to prove by the Ch : to be meant the cheif Officers . The second and third whereof being but needles boasts of his former doings , I passe over . The 4 : is , for order sake and to prevent confusion , for that which is all mens , is no m●ns : wherevpon aryseth great carelesnes in seing vnto such things , as are all mens in publique : and by it pride , yea therevpon contention ensueth . Wee do stand for the order of Christ against the confusion of Antichrist in Babylon , which is vncapable of all right order : as we also enjoy the right disposition of things , and persons in their places , which is order . And if you call it confusion in an assembly , wherein all have equall power , and voice in the determining of things , some one or few going before the rest in guiding , and directing them , you do ( though you consider it not ) strike through our sides , the highest and honourablest court or assembly in the whole land , and which is the rule and fountayn of all the rest , and that is , the court of Parliament , where all things passe by voices , all , or the most : the proloquutor being onely chosen to propound , and moderate actions : which is also the order in generall councils , and ( if I be not deceived ) in your representative Church of Engl ▪ your Convocation house . Which order also is observed for the mayn determinations to be made in the priveledged cities & corporations in the kingdom . And what greater confusion is there like to be in the determining of other Church affaires by voyces , then in the calling of ministers ? the order of whose † election by the suffrages of the multitude , guided by the officers , was both established by the Apostles , & continued in the primitive Churches , many hundred yeares . Now the inconveniency of carelesnes in all , where matters concerne all , is a strange allegation . Me thinks it should make all more carefull , the matters especially being of conscience , and the persons consionable , whom they concern . And I see not but you might as well say , it makes all men careles of the knowledge of God , and Christ , and of salvation , and of the scriptures , bycause these things concern all . And why do you not with the Papists deprive the multitude of the vse of the scriptures in the mother tongue , that you the carefull Clergy alone might look vnto them ? But what though this inconveniency do arise sometimes , through mans corruption , it should be otherwise : and wee must ever cōsider of the nature of Gods ordinances in their right vse , & when men are exercised in them as they should be , and not according to ●rayle mans aberration , and abuse in , and of the same : and if men be sometimes careles of their duties , we must not therefore deprive them of their rights . And in this plea , Mr Bernard , me thinks you very naturally resemble the mighty oppressours in the world , which vnder this very pretence , do inclose all the commons of their poore neighbours : for common things ( say they ) are commonly neglected : & they can make one aker of ground , thus inclosed , worth two in cōmon . But if the Lord denounce such heavy judgments against the inclosers of earthly things , Is. 5. 8. 9. what wil be the end of those spirituall ingrossers and oppressours , if they repent not ? And for pride and contention , as they and a thowsand worse evils could not but fall out in a Church gathered as yours is , of all the prophane rable in a kingdome , so when they do arise in a true Church , there is power to voyd them out , and the persons with them , in whom they reigne . But if the vnlawfulnes of a Church government might be proved by the pryde , contention , & the like evils arising in it , then surely M B. you that know so well how these and other mischeifs reign in your own , should lay your hand on your mouth for shame , and be affrayd to provoke any man to medle in that matt●● . Besides it is apparent both in the scriptures , and ecclesiasticall writers , that not onely pride , and contention , but herely , and almost all other evils haue sprung from the officers , & governours in the Church . And surely nothing hath more in former dayes advanced , nor doth at this day more vphold the throne of Antichrist , then the peoples discharging themselves of the care of publique affaires in the Church , on the one side : and the Preists , and Prelates a●rogating all to themselves on the other side . Lastly the word Church ( you say ) must be expounded figuratively to avoid the absurd●t●s , which e●s would necessarily follow out of the text , viz : that , the whole Church must speak ioyntly , which were confusion contrary to 1 Cor. 14. 40. that women must medle in Church affaires , which the Apostle forbids , ver . 34. that children must speak , which were impossible : so then it must needs ●e taken figuratively , the part for the whole , and if one part must be left out , why not an other , till the cheif of the Congregation be taken , who are chosen by the rest as their mouth . Touching the exception of confusion , I desire the reader to remember what hath been formerly answered : adding further , that Mr B. herein doth not oppose vs but the Apostles , and Apostolicall Churches governed by them : yea the H. Ghost it self propounding their examples for our imitation . The Apostle Peter , Act. 1. 15. &c. standing vp in the middest of the disciples ( which were about an hundred and twenty ) spake to them about the choise of one to succeed Iudas : and it is sayd , ver . 23. that they , that is , these brethren to whom he spake , presented two : as also that the whole multitude , Act. 6. 5. presented the seaven for Deacons to the twelve Apostles , who are sayd , v. 2. to haue called the multitude , and to have spoken vnto them , & v. 6. to have prayed , and layd hands on the elect Deacons . Now might not any prophane spirit take vp M. B. words , and insult over the holy Ghost himself , and say : what did all the disciples that were in the place ( an hundred and twenty ) present Ioseph , and Mathias ? They must needs speak in presenting these two , and spake they ioyntly , or all at once ? this were confusion contrary to 1 Cor. 14. 14. did the women speak ? they must not medle in Church matters , ● . 34. did children speak ? it is impossible . So for Act. 6. did all the twelve Apostles speak at once , v. 2. and pray at once , v. 6. did the whole multitude speak ioyntly , when they presented the 7. Deacon● v. 6. here were the like confusion ; and besides here were women , and children in the Church also . Now let the indifferent reader judge , what M. B. hath sayd more against vs , then any Lucian or scoffing Atheist might obiect against the spirit of God himself , and his holy pen-man the Evangelist . Yea further , by these and the like consequences , women and children are vtterly excluded from the Church , as no parts of it . Luke sayth , Act. 15. 22. that the whole Church sent messengers to Antiochia , and Paul 1 Cor. 14. 23. speakes of the whole Churches comming together in one to exercise themselves in prayer , prophesying , and the like parts of Church communion ; but children neyther could send messengers , nor pray , nor prophesie , nor the like , and women might not speak in the Church ; and therefore both they must be left out of the Church , and if one part why not an other , & so till we come to the cheif of the congregation , that they alone may be the Church , and all in all ? & as it is iust with God , that he which opposeth the truth , should oppose himself also , so doth Mr B. in this very place intāgle himself in the same absurdities , wherin he would ensnare vs. First he affirms the Church , Math. 1● . must be the principall of the congregation . Then Mr B. is not your congregation the true Church of Christ , for the principall of your Church , namely your self , hath no power to excommunicate . And say not for shame , the Archdeacon or officiall are principalls or lesse principalls of your congregation . Again , which is the cheif thing I desire may be observed , you say , these principalls must be chosen by the rest of the Church , & be their mouth , and stand for the whole . And how chosen ? must the whole Church speak joyntly when they chuse them ? that were confusion . must women speak ? that is contrary to the scriptures . Yet are they members of the congregation , and so are young youthes , childrē , and servants . I adde further , the Church you say , is two or three principall members . Well then , they two or three must speak to the party , how can he els heare ? but for two or three to speak together , is confusion , and contrary to the cōmaundement , 1 Cor. 14. 31. for all must speak by one & one . And by this time , I hope you are ashamed of such tristing as here you vse . I do therefore answer in few words : it is not necessary that every one of the people should speak to the offender , no nor of the officers neyther . If but one officer do sufficiently evince , and reprove the party , what needs more speak ? The rest both Officers & people , may manifest their consent eyther by voice , signe , or sil●nce , yet so as liberty be preserved for any in place , and order , to speak , eyther by way of addition , limitation , or dissent . And for women , they are debarred by their s●x , as from ordinary prophecying , so from any other dealing wherin they take authority over the man , 1 Cor , 14. 34. 35. 1 Tim. 2. 11. 12. yet not simply from speaking : they may make profession of faith , or confession of sin , say Amen to the Churches prayers , sing Psalmes vocally , accuse a brother of sin , witnes an accusation , or defend themselves being accused , yea in a case extraordinary , namely where no man will , I see not but a woman may reprove the Church , rather then suffer it to go on in apparent wickednes , and communicate with it therein . Now for children , and such as are not of yeares of discretion , God and nature dispenseth with them , as for not communicating in the Lords supper now , so vnder the law for not offering sacrifices , from which none of yeares were exempted : neyther is there respect of persons with God in the common duties of Christianity . And for that so oft reinforced objection of authority given to two or three , and therefore not to all , I have answered and do , that to two , or three , and yet to all , when there are but two or three in all , as vsually comes to passe in the raysing , and dispersing of Churches . Your 6. Argument to prove that the word Church must be taken figuratively is first , that els the Corinthians had offended , who being all commaunded did but some of them proceed against the incestuous person . 1 Cor. ● 13. 2 Cor. 2. 6. 2. that els Paul had offended , who vpon the complaint of Cloes house did himself , without wayting for the Churches consent , being absent , iudge and determine the matter , and s●nt to them to execute ●● sentence . These two Arguments Mr B. are in your hands like the two witnesses that came against Christ , they neyther agree one with an other , nor eyther of them with the truth . In the former you plead for the Presbytery in saying that some of them did proceed against him , in the latter you vtterly overthrow that , and step in for the Bishops sole power where you make Paul alone iudge and determiner of the busines . I am verily perswaded Mr Smyth hath felt your pulse in this place , and found directly what blood runs in your ●eynes ; to him therefore do I leave you for iudgement in the case . And for answer to the particulars . In the first argument you do most sinfully corrupt the scriptures , knowing that if they be soundly alleadged , they will give no countenaunce to your errour . For where Paul sayth , it is sufficient for the same man that he was rebuked of many , you for the word many put s●me : where some doth import a part , and but a part : ( for where some are sayd to do a thing , it followes , that other some do it not ) where the word many is oft times put for all , as being opposed to one , or a few : as in this place , many rebuking to one rebuked . Take for this phrase of speach , these scriptures . Dan. 12. 2. Mat. 13. 17. Luke 12. 7. Rom. 5. 19. and 8. 29. & 12. 4. 5. 1 Cor. 10. 17. & 12. 12. 14. But mark I pray thee ( wise reader ) when this man expounds Math. 18. 19. 20. where mention is made of a few two or three having the power of Christ , there by two , or three are meant the officers , and Christ hath established the authority of a few for the good of all , and again two or three officers , and a few , have this authority : and yet notwithstanding , when he comes to expound 2 Cor. 2. 6. where mention is made of many rebuking the offender , there by many must be meant the officers also . What Mr B : are two or three Officers in respect of the whole body many ? Doth the holy Ghost speaking of a few in the Church , mean the officers , and speaking of many , mean the officers also ? It were good you awoke out of your dream , that you might spy your contradictions , and how one peice reproves an other . To the obiection I do answer , that first it doth not appear that the party was excommunicated , it may be vpon admonition he repented , and so the extremity spoken of , 1 Cor. 5. 5. was prevented : and 2. if he were , eyther by many may be meant all , as I have formerly shewed , or otherwise it is sufficient if some reprove , the Elders or some of them , specially , by their office , and so of the brethren in the second place , if they see necessary cause ; wherevpon with the silent consent of the rest , iudgement may be given , or the party delivered to Sathan . The 7. Reason to prove the Elders the Church , is , the iudgement , and practise of all reformed Churches . As the reformed Churches do abhorre from your practise , as intollerable , yea almost incredible , that the power of excommunication should be in the hands of one man , and that a forreyn Prelate , or Officiall , that most like never so much in his life as once came in the congregation , whereof the offender is a member , as may be seen in one for all , Beza Epist. 12. so bycause you will needs thus beare over all with all the reformed Churches , I will a little step out of my beaten way , and call in a few ( well-deserving audience ) of the reformed Churches to testify what their judgement is in the case , joyning vnto them also a few of our own men seeming to be of the same mind , whatsoever the practise is eyther of the one , or of the other . To omit then the judgement and practise of the more ancient times , whether whole councels , or particular persons , ( as of the Council of N●ce , where Paphu●tius , no Church officer , both had & vsed such liberty of speach , as he perswaded the whole assembly touching the maryage of Ministers : of Tertullian before that , who Apol : chap. 39. makes the officers onely Praesidents in the assembly , where manners are censured : of Ciprian who would never do any thing in his charge , without the consent of the people . lib. 3 ▪ epist. 10. and in particular thinks it specially the peoples right to chuse or reiect worthy , or vnworthy Ministers , then which what power is greater ? Of Austin , that thinks it helps much to the shaming of the party , that he be excommunicated by the whole Church , lib. 3. contra epist. Parmen : and lastly of Ierom ad Demetr . which affirms that the Church it self hath right in excommunication , as the Elders have in other Church censures ) the first is Zwinglius , who arti● ▪ 8. explanat : speaking of the contention which hath been what a Church is , acknowledges none other Churches but 1. the cōpany of sure & firm beleevers scattered through the vniversal world , which we call the catholik Church : & 2. severall congregations , which ●ōveniently meet together in some one place , &c. and of these he affirmes Christ to speak , Math. 18. Tell the Church , and Paul. 1 Cor. 1. To the Church which is at Corinth . And answering an objection touching a Church representative he saith , of this I find nothing in the scriptures : out of mens devises any man may feyn any thing . Next Perter Martyr , in his comon places pant : 4. chap. 5. sect . 9. making the Church a Monarchy in respect of Christ , an Aristocracy in respect of the Elders , addeth also that bycause in the Church there are matters of great weight , and importance referred vnto the people , as excommunication , absolution , of choosing Ministers , & the like , it hath also a consideration of popular government : and vpon 1 Cor. 5. 4. The Apostle as great as he was would not excommunicate alone , but did take counsel with the Church that the thing might be done by common authority . Which notwithstanding the Pope , and other Bishops dare do . The Apostle indeed goes before the rest , which is the duty of the ancients of the Ch : that the more ignorant multitude by their suffragation before going , may be directed in iud●ing . With him ioyn Bucer , who in his first book chapt . 9. de regno Christi , affirmes that Paul accuses the Corinthians , for that the whole Church had not excommunicated the incestuous person . Bastingius in the 4. place , quaestion 85. of his Catichism speaking of the difference between the two keyes that of preaching , & the other of discipline places it in this , that the former which is of the preaching of the gospel is committed to the Ministers , the other , bycause it perteyns to the discipline of excommunication , is permitted to the whole Church . Lastly , even Beza himself , how streyt soever he be to the multitude in this case , hardly graunting them the liberty which “ Mr B. yea which the very * Iesuits do , namely that they were with the Elders gathered together in the name of the Lord Iesus , 1 Cor. 5. 4. yea & do playnely deny it in his Annotations vpon 2 Cor. 2. 6. Yet vpon v. ● . he is constreyned to affirm , that Paul intreats that the incestuous person might by the publique consent of the Church be declared a brother , as he was by the Churches publique consent cast out . Now to these speciall lights in the reformed Churches abroad , I will annex a few of the cheif endeavours of reformation at home . The first of them is Mr Hooper , who in his Apology writes , that excōmunicatiō should be by the Bishop , & the whole Parish , & that Pauls consent , & the whole Church with him did excōmunicate the incestuous man. To him adde Mr Fox , whose judgement in the book of Martyrs , pag. 5. 6. 7. is , and so is inforced by him that writ the discovery of D. Ban●r ofts vntruthes , and slaunders against reformation , that every visible Church , or congregation , hath the power of binding , and loosing annexed to it . If it be sayd the Church hath it , if the Officers have it : I see not but it may be as well sayd , the Church hath the scriptures in a known tongue , if the Officers so enjoy them . Thirdly Mr Cartwright in his reply to D. Whitgifts answer , pag. 147 both affirms , and proves , that Paul both vnderstanding , and observing the rule of our Saviour Christ , communicates this power of excommunication with the Church , Him also an other writing A demonstration of discipline , alledgeth , adding further that they which were met togither , 1 Cor. 5. 4. 5. were to excommunicate the incestuous person : with whom also consorteth he that wrote of the certayn form of ecclesiasticall government● , who vnder that head of the authority of the Ministers of the word that by the Church Math. 18. Christ meanes a particular Congregation , the Pastor , Elders , & people consenting , making that the iudgement of the particular congregation which is spoken of 1 Cor. 5. 12. In the 4. place Mr Iacob in his book to the King for reformation , pag. 28. pleads for the peoples consent and voyce-giving in elections , & excommunications : to whom I ioyn them that made the Christian offer to iustify against the Bishops , and their adhaerents , that ▪ every ordinary assembly of the faithfull , hath by Christs ordinance power in it self immediately vnder Christ , to elect , and ordeyn , deprive , and depose their Ministers , and to exequute all other ecclesiasticall censures . Proposition 5. & Prop. 8 , that the officers can do no materiall ecclesiasticall act without the free consent of the Congregation . Lastly * the godly Ministers in the end of Mr Bernards book do directly judge against him , interpreting the Church . Math. 18. to be a particular Congregation , and excommunication the iudgement , & censure of that particular congregation whereof the offender is a member . Thus have I been constreyned by the bold boasting , and facing , which this man vseth , of , and with the iudgement of all reformed Church●● , to set downe the judgements of some few amongst many both at home ▪ and abroad for his conviction ; though I desire the touchstone of the holy scriptures alone may try all differences betwixt him and me . I now return to Mr Bernard where I left him : & so come to two reasons he annexeth pag. 98. 99. to prove the officers to be called the Church : the former is , because it is , an vsuall speach to put the name of the whole vpon the part , and this to be taken for the whole . The 2. bycause a company is no where called a Church in the new testament , but where they have officers . The latter of these I have formerly confuted as the reader may see pag. 126. 127. &c. Onely I adde one thing vpon occasion of these words a Church in the new testament , that as there is but † one body , or Church , and we vnder the new testament that “ one , or the same body or Church with the Iewes in the old , so ( if the Ministery made the Church , how much more if it were the Church ) could it not be , that the Iewes and we should be one Church , for I shall never be brought to beleeve , nor , I think will any man affirm it , that the Ministery of an Apostle , or Elder now , is the same in nature with the Ministery of a sacrificing Levite vnder the law . Wee are by faith * sonnes and daughters of Abraham , and partaker of the covenant , and promises , and † by fayth grafted in their holy root , and in this stands our onenes with them , but neyther in the Ministery , nor in the government , nor in any other ordinance which are but manners of dispensing that covenant , and those divers & changeable , where the covenant is nothing lesse . And for the former of your reasons , ( howsoever the place you bring Act. 15. 3. proves no such matter ) yet is the thing true you say , namely that a part of the Church is sometimes called by the name of the whole ; but what part ? not the officers , but the brethren , the saynts , as being the matter ( an essentiall cause ) of the Church : the Elders not so , as being but for the assistance , and well being of it . And so the Church gives both being , and denomination to the Elders , but not the Elders to the Church : which is never called the Church of the Elders , as they are called “ the Elders of the Church , and so are of it , and not it of them . That which you adde of inconveniences , and discommodities following vpon your doctrine not to be regarded is frivolous , except by them you mean , absurdities , and inconsequences , ●a al●g● in theologia , as they call them , and then they are to be regarded , as never necessarily following vpon any truth : for the truth brings forth no errour by true consequence . The sixth Reason , of the superiour order , followeth , ( for Mr B. hath his reasons , and his vnder reasons ) which is , In it self ( the multitude being ever vnconstant ) it is instability , vnorderlynesse , where every one is a like equall , it is the nourse of confusion , the mother of schisme , the breeder of contention . These very same things have been formerly objected by you in the fourth part of your 5. argument , and there cleared . The truth is , the drawing of all power into the officers hands , breeds in them pride , and arrogancy , and in the people ignorance , and security . And for your contemptuous vpbrayding of Gods people in this book , with inconstancy , instability , pride , contention , and the like evils , but specially in your second book , where with a scurtilous , and prophane spirit you nickname them , Srmon the Sadler , Tomkin the Taylour , Billy the Bellowes maker , as you shew whose child you are , Ioh. 7. 48. 49. in so speaking , so doth the Spirit of God give an other testimony of them Act. 2 41 42. Phil. 1. 6. 7. 1 Th. 3. 5. 6. 7 8. 1 Pet. 1 7 8. In deed ( as I formerly sayd ) no mervavl though such multitudes as yours are , be vnstable and variable , and ready to change their religion with their Prince , yea though it be to Popery , as appeared in Queen Maries dayes , vniversally scarce one of ten thousand excep●●d : onely the mischeif was , that the Praelates and Priests were as vnstable as the rest , yea their ringleaders also . But for our selves , Mr Bern. and that whereof we take experience in this our popularity , as you terme it , I tell you , that if ever I saw th● b●a●●y of Sion , & the glory of the Lord filling his tabernacle , it hath b●en in the manifestation of the divers graces of God in the Church , in that heavenly harmony , and comely order , wherein by the grace of God we are set and walk : wherein , if your eyes had but seen the brethrens sober , and modest cariage one towards an other , their humble , and willing submission vnto their guides , in the Lord , their tender compassion towards the weak , their ●●rvent zeal against scandalous offenders , and their long suffering towards all , you would ( I am perswaded ) chaunge your mind , and be compelled to take vp your parable , and blesse , where you purposed to curse , as Balaam did , Numb . 23. But whatsoever you , and all others do , these our experimentall comforts neyther you , nor any other shall take from vs. Your 7. and 8. Reason are of one nature , and may for brevity sake be contracted into one : the sum whereof is , that the sheep , & flock are to obey , and depend vpon their sheepheard , Heb. 13. 17. 1 Pet. 5. 2. the children to be subiect to their father , 1 Cor. 4. 15. the work to be ordered by the workman 1 Cor. 4. 12. the corne by the seeds man , and not the contrary : and ther cannot be shewed in the old or new testament any example , that ever the people had commaund over their Pastours , or power to ●ast ▪ them out . These things are popular , and may deceive the simple , and credulous , but though * the fool beleeve every thing , yet the prudent will cōsider his stepps . Wee deny not then , but the flock both severally and ioyntly is to obey them that have the oversight of them , Heb. 13. 17. to know them , and to have them in singular love , 1 Thes. 5. 12. 13. but it must be in the Lord , and for their works suke : and wherein they watch for their soule . as is expressed in the same places . But what now if the officers will reign besides the Lord ? if their works be such , as deserve hatred , and not love ? if in stead of watching for the peoples soules , they take a course , eyther to starve them through negligence , or to poyson them with heresy , or evill life ? must they stil obey them ? or hath the Church no remedy against them ? The Churches of Galatia were bound to receive , and submit vnto such Ministers as brought the doctrine of Christ ; and yet “ if any man , yea though he were an Apostle , or above an Apostle , should bring any other doctrine they were to hold him accursed , and so to cast him away as an accursed thing . The Collosians were bound to obey Archippus in the lawfull exequution of his Ministery , and yet they might † say unto him , look to thy Ministery , and if they might so admonish him , certaynly they might go further with him , if there were cause . The Pilate is to guide the ship , and all that are in it ▪ ( yea though the King himself be there ) but if he eyther ignorantly , or desperately will run vpó the sands , he may be displaced by his passengers , and the fittest put in his room , as I have formerly observed . Now not onely the Church is commonly , and fitly compared to a ship , but the very word vsed 1 Cor. 12. 28. ●or the “ govern●●● of the Church , is borrowed from the government , and guidance of a ship in the originall . And if nature teach this liberty , in bodily daunger , how much greater liberty doth the Lord give in the spirituall daunger , both of soule , and body also ? And your quaestion of examples for the peoples casting out their officers , is frivolous , if there be a commondement or rule for it . What example have you , but grounds , for the baptizing of infants ? Or where read you of any officer excommunicate by any ? And certaynly if the body of the Church may not cast out the Pastor for obstinate sinne , no person , nor persons vpon earth may do it . But the vanity of your opinion I do thus manifest . First you affirm pag. 88. that to separate from , is all one in substance with , to excommunicate ( though called by a name l●sse odious ) . Whence it followeth that if the body of the Church may not excommunicate their officers , they may not separate frō them , no not though they prove Papists or Atheists , or never so abominable , oh the hellish bondage wherein these men would enthrall the Lords people to their destruction . If the Congregation may chuse , and elect their governours , then they may reject and reprobate them : ( for they that set vp may pull down ) but this liberty ( as streyt as you are to the multitude ) you your self graunt them , pag. 97. and if you denyed it , the scriptures assure it them , Act. 1 , and 6. 1. 2. 3. 4. & 14. 23. But if in these words , the people have no cōmaund over their Pastors , nor power to cast them out , you would intimate , that they might depose them but not excommunicate them , it would nothing avayl you . For as it were a straunge thing , that men should haue no commaund over their servants , ( as I haue of● times shewed the Church Officers to be the Church servants ) so were it a● strange , if the putting of servants out of their Office , should not argue power over them . And besides deposition ( if any such ordinance be to be vsed in the Church , is not of persons obstinate in sinne , but of such , as having by grosse idolatry , or some other notorious crime , so scandalously faln , as they cannot be reteyned in their Ministery , with the safety , and credit of the Church , & Gospell , no not though they repent , but ( not withstanding their repentance , and continuance in the Church vpon the same ) they are to be disseyzed of their Ministery , and “ to beare their iniquity , and shame . But this is nothing to men obstinate in sin , who may not vpon their deposition , be continued in the Church ; and to deal with them a new for the sinne , for which they have been formerly censured , or to censure them twice for one sin , is an idle and unwarrantable course . They are therefore to be cast out by the people , and so vnder their excommunication , is their deprivation comprehended . If the Pastour ( and so of the rest of the Officers ) be a brother in the Church , ( as * all Gods children are the saynts brethren ) then must the Church not suffer † sin to rest upon him , but must admonish him , and if he remaine obstinate , cast him out . For the Lord Iesus subjects every brother indefinitely , and without respect of persons , to this censure , Mat. 18. 17. 1 Cor. 5. 11 , 12. 13. From which last scripture another Argument of the same nature may be drawn , which is , that if the Pastour ( and so of the other officers ) be within , and not without , and vnder the Lords judgement , then are they under the judgement of the Church “ gathered together in the name of our Lord Iesus , which you confesse to be * the multitude ; yea I see not how the Pastour , or officers may be admonished by the Church , if they may not be cast out , or how the Collossians may † say to Archippus , take heed to thy Ministery , if they may not censure him , if he be heedlesse ; for he that wil not heare the Church , must be excommunicated , or ( which is a description of excommunication by an effect ) must be accounted an heathen or publican . They † that are without & vnder the Lords iudgement , are exempted from the Churches judgments , but they which are within , the Church ▪ must iudge : and therefore if the Ministers be within , and not without , and under Gods iudgements , they must vndergoe the iudgements of the Church . If the Pastour ( and the like reason is of the rest ) ▪ may not be excommunicated for sin , by the Church , then he and they want a meanes of salvation , which the brethren have , y●● the onely folenin meanes of salvation in the case of obstinacy , ●o which they are as sub●ect , as any other , being frayl men , as the rest . And the reason is , for that , as “ the preaching of the gospell ( which is the one key of the kingdome ) is the power of God to salvation vnto them that beleeve , so excommunication ( being the other key ) is , * the power of our Lord Iesus for the destruction of the flesh , or humbling of the offender , that his foule might be saved . Now what a miserable priveledge this were ▪ all men truely fearing God , will easily observ●● ▪ And for mine own part , knowing mine owne infirmities , and that I am subiect to sinne , yea & to frowardnes in sin , as much as the brethren are : if by mine office I should be deprived of the romedy , which they enioy , that blessed ordinance of the Churches con●ures , I should think mine office accursed , and my self by it , as frustrating , and dissappointing me of that mayn end , for which the servants of Christ ought to ioyn thēselves vnto the Church of Christ ▪ furnished wi●h his power for their reformatiō . And sin●e the cheif thing , which after the glory of God , the saynts are to regard , is their salvation , and that their salvation is no way indang●red , but by obstinate impenitency , and that obstinate impenitency hath none other solemn ordinance for remedy , but excommunication , what cause of sorrow had I for the want of this soveraigne remedy , and meanes of salvation by mine office , which without it I might enioy ? As on the contrary , God is my record , how in the very writing of these things , m● soul is filled with spirituall ioy , that I am vnder this easy yoak of Christ the censures of the Church , whereof I am , and how much I am comforted in this very consideration , against my vile , and corrupt nature , which notwithstanding , I am perswaded the Lord w●ll never so farre suffer to rebell , as that i● shall not be taymed , & subdu●d by this strong hand of God , with out which it might every day and hower so hazard my salvation . That doctrine which advanceth an inferiour and meaner estate in the Church , above that which is superiour , & the cheif , that is vnsound , and in deed serving in a degree for “ the exaltation of th●● man of sinne a 〈◊〉 all that is called God. But this doctrine of Mn●st● setting the Elders without and above the iudgements ▪ and censures of the Church doth advance an inferiour above a suporiour . Ergo. The point then to be proved is , that the order of saints or say●tship in the Church ; is an order superiour vnto , and above the order of officers ▪ or of Bishoptick , or Eldership ▪ which I thus manifest . 1. The order of servants is inferiour to the order of them , whose servants they are . But the order of Church Officers , is an order of † servants , and they by their offic● to 〈◊〉 the people ▪ Ergo. 2. The order of Kings is the highest order o●●sta●● in the Church . But the order of * saynts is the order of Kings , & wee are Kings as we are saynts not as wee are officers . Ergo ▪ 3. As the Apostle proves the woman to be inferiour vnto , and lesse excellent then the man , 1. bycause †† 〈◊〉 is not of th● woman , but the woman of the man● and 2 ▪ bycause the man was not created for the womuns sake , but the woman for the mans sake , ●o by necessary consequence , and iust proportion it followeth , that the Elders are inferiour , and lesse excellent , then the Church , as being both of , and for the Church , and not the Church of , nor for them . 4. As the Lord Iesus did prove against the Scribes & Pharisees , that “ the temple was greater then the gold , bycause it sanctified the gold , and that the altar was greater then the offering , bycause it sanctifyed the offoring , so by proportion the condition of a saynt , which sanctifieth the condition of an officer ( as our generall calling doth our speciall calling ) is more excellent and greater then it is . To our saynt-ship , and as wee have fayth , is promised the forgivenes of sinnes , the favour of God , and life eternall , but not to our office , or in respect of it . The estate of a saynt is most happy & blessed , though the person never so much as come neare an office , but on the contrary , an officer , if he be not also , and first , a sainct , is a most wretched , and accursed creature . Infinite others are the reasons to disprove the pretended charter , by which this popish Clergy would exempt it self from the cōmon condition of Christians , in the cōmon Christian ordinances of the Church , as though their office ate vp their brotherhood , & their speciall calling of officers their generall calling of Christians . And I cannot more fitly resemble this exemption of one , or more officers , from the ecclesiasticall censures , vnto which one or so many brethren are subiect being in the same sinne , then to the like exemption or priveledge , springing ( as it seemes ) from the same root , in civill judgements , cōmonly called The benefit of clergy . For as by it a malefactour ( if he can read vt clericus , as they speak , shall escape death which others do , & so he should without that benefit , vndergoe : so by the benefit of clergy here , the person delinquent is freed frō the dint of the spirituall sword , the cēsure of the Church , which others do , and so he should without that priveledge , vndergoe , as well as they . Where me thinks , it were more meet , as , that he , which can read , and so hath , or may have greater knowledge should be the more severely punished civily , so , that the officers in the Church should vndergoe ( if it were to be found ) an heavier cēsure for their sinne , as being both more scandalous , and lesse excusable : And so the Lord by Moses expresly manifests his will to be , in enioyning the Preist a greater sacrifice * a bullock for his sin , where a goat ( which was lesse ) might serve in the like case for the su● of one of the people . And this may well serve for a seventh reason to prove that the officers are by the law of God lyable to as deep censures for sin , as the people , and so the Pastour , as any one of the brethren . Yet for the further & more full opening of the iniquity of those proud and popish exemptions , and exaltations of Church officers , whereof from these scriptures alledged by Mr B. and the like , they boast so much , and by which they affright , and abuse the simple people , in all places , I will breifly , as I can , lay down certayn such different respects , and relations , vnder which the officers of the Church do come , as being rightly vnderstood , & iustly applyed , will give good light to the discovering of this mystery . First then , the officers of the Church are to be considered in respect of the thing , which they minister , and that is , the word , and revealed will of God , in which regard they are infinitely above , & superiour vnto all * men and angels , and † in the very stead of Christ , and of God himself . And in , for , and according to this message , or ambassage of God , and of Christ , they are absolutely and simply to be obeyed as is the meanest officer about the King , carrying with him his warrant , and authority , by the greatest Pere in the kingdome . In the 2. place they must be considered of vs , in respect of their office , by vertue whereof they do administer . And in this regard they are inferiour vnto the Church , as being by it called to a place of ministery to serve the Church , and not of Lordship to reign over it . The 3. consideration they vndergoe , is , in regard of their persons , and as they are brethren , saynts , christians , ( for they cease not to be Christians , bycause they are Ministers , but must manifest their generall calling in their speciall ) partakers of the same cōmon graces , and subiect to the same common infirmities with the rest : and in this respect they are equall with the brethren , standing in need of the same meanes both for their edification , and reformation , and so particularly , of the censures for their humiliation , if they be so farre left of God , ( as they may be , and oft times are ) as they will not otherwise be reclaymed . And I had as leiv you should tell me , that , bycause the Deacons are to distribute the Churches almes , therfore the Church is not to releiv them , though they be in daunger to starve bodily , as that bycause the Elders are to minister the Churches judgmēts , none must iudge them , though they be thorough impenitency in daunger to perish spiritually . Now for the particulars , which Mr B. obiecteth : it is true , the people are sheep , but not the Ministers , but the Lords sheep . Ezech. 34. 6. 8 — 31. neyther are these sheep for the Ministers , as the naturall sheep for their sheepheards , but for the Lord , and the sheepheards for them . The people are indeed an house , but not the officers house , but the Lords house , for him to dwell in . Ephe. 2. 20. 21. 1 Tim. 3. 15. Secondly the people are sheep , yet not vnreasonable beasts , but men , Ezech. 34. 31. so to be looked to by the sheepheards , as they are also to look to themselves , Act. 20. 28. Luk. 17. 3. They are so a house , as they consist not of dead , but of living stones , 1 Pet. 2. 5. so built vp by the Officers as they are also to build vp themselves , Iud. 20. And which is especially to be minded for the purpose in hand , the officers are so sheepheards , as they are , also themselves sheep , ( if they be not goates ) Math. 25. 37. Luk. 12. 32. Rom. 8. 36. They are so fathers as they are also brethren , Mat. 23. 8. Act. 1. 16. 2 Cor. 8. ●● . yea , as they are sonnes also , in a sence as the Levite was in sundry respects , both Michaes father and his sonne ▪ Iudg. 17. 1. 11. They are so workmen , or builders , as they are also part of the house , Ephe. 2. 22. 2 Tim. 2. 20. so seeds-men , as themselves are also seed , and a part of the harvest , Math. 13. 38. These distinctions rightly observed , will both teach the officers how to govern , and the people how to obey , and both officers , & people how to preserve themselves , and one another , vnder the power of Christ given to his Church . And where you demaund in this place , ( by way of digression ) how a few of vs become a Church , we answer in a word by cōming out of Babylon , ( thorough the mercies of God ) and building our selves into a new and holy temple vnto the Lord. But where you affirm the Ministery , that is the office of Ministery , or the word so ministred , to be the Lords onely ordinary meanes to plant Churches , or to vrge men to ioyn vnto them , you streyten the Lords hand , and wrong his people . When * the woman of Samarta spake to her neighbours of Christ , and called them vnto him , they both beleeved , and came ; but had you been amongst them , it seemes you would have done neyther the one nor the other , except a Minister had called you . I confesse indeed the Churches in England , were very manne●ly this way , & would not so much as forsake the Pope of Rome , till their masse-priests went before them , who being continued in their office , did by the attractive power of King Edwards proclamation at the first , and Queen Elizabeths afterward ▪ and by their statute lawes , gather heir Parish Churches vnto them , vnder their service book , as 〈…〉 doth her chicken to be brooded vnder her wing . But the ●●formed Churches were otherwise gathered then by Popish preists continued over them : the people first separating themselves from idolatry , and fo●o●●ing together in the fellowship of the gospell , were afterwards ( when they had sit men ) to call them into the office of Ministery , and so they practised , as appears in the Epistle of Melanctbon to the Teachers ▪ in Bohemia ▪ in D. Tile●us his answer to the Earle of Lavall : and in Peter Martyr vpon the 4. of Iudges . It is true indeed , that the Lord Iesus sent forth his Apostles into the world , for the first planting of Churches : ( though even in their times Ch : were planted & men turned to the Lord by the preaching of private brethrē , Act. 8. 1. 4. & 11. 19. 20. 21. & therefore Barnabas cōming among them , is not said to have ioyned thē vnto the Lord , but to have exhorted them , which were ioyned , to cōtinue with the Lord. vers . 23. and to have perswaded others to ioyn themselues unto the Lord also : vers . 24. ) but that this course ordinary set by Christ , should be held in the replanting of Churches after the vniversall apostasie of Antichrist , is a thing impossible . There were then no Ministers , but popish Priests ▪ and are they the Lords meanes Mr Bernard ? Shall * the man of sin be consumed by himself , or by the breath of the Lords mouth ? Are false Ministers the Lords ordinary means of planting Churches ? Or are popish massepreists , or the popish Bishops from whom they have their authority , and so the Pope himself from whom they have theirs , true Ministers ? And is the Church of Rome a true visible Church ? For it is not possible there should be a true Ministery in a false Church . These are the inconveniences , and discommodities , Mr Bernard speaks of , & by which he sayth we would wring the truth from him . But it is certayn , they are such playne demonstrations , as do evince his pretended truthes of popish and popular errours . And for the gathering of a Church M. B. I do tell you , that in what place soever , by what means soever , whether by preaching the gospell by a true Minister , by a false minister , by no minister , or by reading , conference , or any other meanes of publishing it , two or three faithfull people do arise , separating themselves frō the world into the fellowship of the gospell , and covenant of Abraham , they are a Church truely gathered though never so weak , a house and temple of God rightly founded vpon the doctrine of the Apostles and Prophets , Christ himsef being the corner stone , against which the gates of hell shall not prevayl , nor your disgracefull invectives neyther . Indeed * the Pharisees thought bycause they had Abraham for their father , and did descend of him by ordinary succession , & were the formall Teachers of the Church , that therefore God could not possibly cast them off , or have a Church without them : even so it is with the Pharisaicall formall clergy in Rome , and England ▪ they think that Christ hath so tyed his power and presence vnto their ceremony of succession , that without them he knowes not how to do for a Church , but must needs have it passe through their fingers . But as Iohn Baptist told the old Pharisees ▪ † that God was able of the stones to raise vp children vnto Abraham , though they all , & every one of them , like vnfruitfull trees should be cut downe and cast into the f●r● : so say I vnto their children , the Pharisees of our ●yme , that though the Lord reject them , and every one of them for their apostacy , and rebellion , yet can he by the seed of the word ( cast with what hand soever ) rayse vp vnto Abraham children , vnto himself a Church . They that are “ of the faith of Abraham , they are the children , and seed of Abraham , and within the covenaunt of Abraham ( though but two or three ) and so of the same Church with him , by that covenaunt . Your last argument to prove the officers the Church Math. 18. and directly to disprove our supposed popularity is , that it is against the dignity , and office of the Ministers , who represent Christs person vnto the Congregation , 1 Cor. 4. 1. having authority from him to preach , administer the sacraments , vse the censures , which none but such as represent him can give them , ( which the body of the people do not by office ) nor take from them &c. This indeed is the thing : the dignity of Preisthood is it , which goes nearest you : and that you keep last as Iacob did Beniamin , whom of all his sonnes he was loathest to part with , Gen. 42. 4. & 43. 14. But first if your meaning be , that the Ministers by their office represent Christ in his office , it is little lesse then blasphemy ; for Christ is the husband , and mediatour of his Church , by his office , and herein not to be represented by any other man , or angel . The ministers in publishing the gospell , and word of reconciliation are in * Christs stead , and therein to be obeyed as himself ; but what if they speak the vision of their own hart , and publish heresy , & false doctrine , or lead a scandalous , and prophane life ? their office is no dispensation for them , neyther are they now any longer in the stead of Christ , but of the Divel whom they resemble , as children their father , and are so to be reputed . Besides , there is no force in your argument : bycause the body of the Church represents not Christ by office , as the Ministers do , therefore it is no way equall with the Ministers , nor may medle with them , but the contrary . May not a man as well argue thus ? Bycause the wife no way represents her housband in office , ( for she is in no office ( the same may be sayd of the children ) a● the steward , and the bayliffe doe , therefore the wife is no way superiour vnto them , she may not reprove , or displace them in her husband● absence , what evil soever they doe in their office , or persons , but on the contrary they may rebuke her , and turne her out of doores ( and her children with her ) if there be cause . For they represent the maister in office she not . Now wee know well “ the Church is the wife , and spouse of Christ , & † the Ministers stewards . Thus having cleared the way of such obiections , as wherewith Mr Bernard would stumble the reader , I come in the next place ( as I have formerly ordered my course ) to declare that the Church , Math. 18. 17. is not the officers , but the whole body meeting together for the publique worship of God , and that 1 Cor. 5. proves the same by practise , which is in the former place enjoyned by rule . Onely I must needs , by the way , make a step into his 2. book amongst his score of reasons there against popularity , and so remove , as it were with my foot , such of them , as are tumbled in by him to make rough the playn wayes of the Lord. And they are as the authour numbers them the 7. 12. 13. 17. 18. The 7. Reason is , that if a sort of persons professing Christ together , without officers haue the power of such officers in themselves , they may do all the officers may do ▪ Wee say not that the Church hath the power of the officers , but the power of Christ , as is expresly affirmed , 1 Cor. 5. 4. 5. and 2. it followes not , that bycause the Church hath the power of Christ for all things , therefore it can injoy all things without officers . The power is one thing , which is inseparable from the body , the vse of the power an other thing , which in many cases it may want . Civil corporations have the Kings power , and charter , as well without as with officers , and yet it may be there are liberties in their charter they cannot enjoy without officers : they have therefore power for officers also , which they may chuse , and so enjoy all their liberties by their help : so in the spirituall corporation the Church , there is alwayes the whole power of Christ residing , which therefore may call officers for the vse of it ; to which it is sufficient , that it can without officers vse this power for things simply necessary , as for the receiving in of members by profession of faith , and confession of sinnes , for the aedifying of them by exhortations , & cōforts in the ordinance of prophecying , and so for casting them out by excommunication , which fall from their former profession , or confession . The sum of the 11. and 12. Reas : is , that this power or liberty of the multitude to judge in Church matters , overthrowes the power , & authority of Christian Magistrates in the Church , to whom the people are commaunded to be subiect both in the old and new testament . And doth not the ill advised man consider that his own opinion , making the officers of the Church , alone the Church , and giving them power to judge in Church matters without the rest of the body , doth as much overthrow the authority of Christian Magistrates , as ours , in making the officers and body with them the Church , having power to judge together ? yea much more : for if the ecclesiasticall officers alone be the Church , Math. 18. and so must judge and censure sinnes ( which is the thing he pleads for ) then ● the civil magistrate simply excluded : where wee reputing the whole body the Church , do necessarily include the Christian Magistrate , as being one of the Church . Secondly is Mr B. and his brother Bell ( whom he quotes in the 〈…〉 gent ) to ignorant , as they cannot distinguish betwixt civil authority , and judgements in Church matters , and that authority and those judgements , which are ecclesiasticall ? The Christian magistrate , as he is a brother , may be censured ecclesiastically by the Church , whereof he is a member : and yet the same person as a magistrate whether of the Church , or not of the Church , or cast out of the Church , may censure , and punish civilly the whole Church , and every member of it , if there be cause , whether in matters of the Church or common wealth . In the 17. reason Mr B. would fasten vpon vs an absurdity , in making the body both to govern and to be governed , and so to be both Lord and servant , Prince and subiect , &c. It is your self Mr Ber. that commit the absurdity , which I thus manifest . The Church must be governed , sayth the scripture , and cōmon sense . But the Church is the officers , Math. 18. sayth Mr Bernard . Wherevpon it followeth that the Officers must be governed . And to your reason , whomsoever you count Lords , and servants , and whosoever are Lords , and servants in your Church , I know by the scriptures that in the Church of Christ the officers are † servants , & in that relation the Church may be called a Lord ; and if Christ truely call * the sonne of man Lord of the sabbath , bycause the sabbath was made for man , and not man for the sabbath , may we also call the Church in a respect , Lord of the Officers , for the Officers are for the Church , and not the Church for them . And yet we hold the same officers which are servants , to be governours also , for the government of the Church , is merely a Church-service , as all not carnally blinded with ambition , or superstition , will graunt with me . Now where you affirm , Reas : 18. that the people are never termed by any name insinuating soveraignty , but that the Ministers are , you speak partially on both sides , would you have the Ministers , that is , the servants of the Church , to be her soveraigns ? The names you bring as most advauntageable , argue no such thing . They are Overseers , as the watchmen are for the citie : Elders for th●ir gravity : Fathers in respect of the seed of the word by which they b●ge ▪ to conversion , and therefore Paul makes himself he onely * father of the Corinthians , bycause he had been the instrument of their conversion , notwithstanding all other teachers whomsoever , to whom in that respect he opposeth himsel● ▪ as not being their fathers . And so men out of office may be as wel the fathers of others , as they in office . However , fatherhood argues no soveraignty . And yet the holy Apostles & Prophets thought not much vpon all occasions , to account the saints their brethren , and themselves theirs . And I would you wist , whose names Iohn Bale in his Paraphrase vpon the Revelation ch . 17 : vers . 3. thought your Grace , your Lordship , your Fatherhood , to be . And where further you name the brethren , sheep , the household of faith , the wife , or spouse in respect of the officers ( for that is the consideration in hand ) therein you deal very deceiptfully ; for the brethren or saynts , are not the Officers sheep , houshold , wife , or spouse , but Christs : betwixt whom , and them the comparison is not . Lastly your affirmatiō that the saynts are called Kings , Rev. 1. 6. not for any outward power over mē , but for the inward power of Gods spirit sāctifying the elect , by which , as Kings , they rule over their own corruptions , is an ill glosse corrupting the text . For in the same place , they are called Preists also . Now as they are not Preists only for themselves , but for their brethrē , for whom they are to offer vp the spiritual sacrifices of prayer , & thāksgiving : so neyther are they Kings for themselves alone , but for their brethren also , having † the power of Christ whereby to iudge them , “ the keyes of the kingdome to bind and loose them , in the order by him prescribed . These things thus layd down occasionally , I return to the point . And first against the figurative exposition of these words , Tell the Church , I do alledge two approved Rules , and Canon ▪ in divinity , for exposition of scriptures . The former is , that scriptures must be expounded according to the largest extent of the words , except there be some apparent restreynt of them . The second is , that they must be expounded simply , and according to the letter , except necessity compell to depart frō the litterall sence to a figurative . And therefore since there appeares not any such necessity , as is pretended , eyther of figure or restreynt , the words must be taken in their largest , and simplest meaning . With these rules I desire the reader to beare in mind that , which hath been formerly observed to the purpose in hand , and amongst other things , that the officers are to govern the Church in the cēsures , as in all other actions of communion , and therefore cannot be the Church ; that every true Ch ▪ hath , or is capable of , a ministery over it , and so there should be a minister of ministers : that the order of officers in the Church is an order of servants , and the order of saynts an order of Kings ( which is the highest order in the Church ) fitting vpon the thrones of David for judgement , whom the ministers are to serve in guiding & going before them , in , and in ministring of their judgements . And so I go on . The rule prescribed Mat ▪ 18. concernes all the visible Churches in the world : since the power of excommunication is an essentiall property , one of the keyes of the kingdome , the onely solemn ordinance in the Church , for the humbling , and saving of an obstinate offender , and as necessary as the power to receive in members , without which a Church cannot be gathered , or consist . And therefore the Officers cannot be the Church there spoken of , since true Churches may ( and do ) want officers , as I have formerly proved . If two or three officers be the Church , Math. 18. then may they two or three excommunicate the whole body , though it consist of a thousand persons : for what brother , or brethren soever , will not hear the Church there spoken of , he or they are to be accounted as heathens and publicans . Yea , I ad , if the power of excommunication be ●yed to the office , since the office may remayn in one , I see not but one may do any work of his office , and so as well excommunicate , as admonish , preach , minister the sacraments and the rest . Now whether this power in one or two , to punish judicially one or two thousand , be not Lordly at the least , let the reader judg . Further , if the officers be the Church , I would know , if one of them fall into scandalous sinne , and will not be reclaymed , what must then be done . It wil be answered , that the rest must censure him . But what if there be but two in all , must the one excommunicate the other ? the ruling Elder ( it may be ) the Pastour ? 2. if the rest of the Elders , ( being many ) may displace the Pastour by their authority , they may also place him , and set him vp by their authority , and so the poore laity is stript of all liberty , or power of chusing their officers , contrary both to the scriptures , and your 〈…〉 o●ne graunt . If the Officers be the Church , then they alone may excōmunicate a brother without the consent , yea or the privitie of any of the brethren : for the busines concernes none but the Church , Math. 18. neyther need they so much as acquaint any others with it . But so absurd is this , as you your self graunt the contrary , and tha● it must be done with the knowledge of the Church publiquely , and when the body meets together in open assembly . The Apostles themselves , ( whom no ministers now can equall eyther for skill , or authoritie ) did not thus engrosse all things into their own hands , but did interesse the people , though raw , & newly come to the faith , in all the publick affaires of the Church , and in such deliberations , as arose about them . And who should deny them to meddle in those things which concerne them ? But if any do , these scriptures avow their liberty . Act. 1. 15. 23. 26. & 6. 2. 5. & 11. 2. 3. 18. & 22. 1. & 14. 17. & 15. 3. 4. 14. 21. 22. 30. 31. & 21. 22. Rom. 16. 17. 1 Cor. 5. 4. & 16. 3. 2 Cor. 8. 19. 23. 24. Now there is nothing that more concernes the body of the Church , then the excommunication of a brother , whether wee respect the commaundement of God , binding them * not to suffer sin vpon a brother , but to rebuke him plainly , and “ to admonish him , that being † rebuked by many he may be humbled , & drawn to repentāce : or the credit of the Church , which must be defended against the slaunders of the excommunicants , which will ever be iust in their own cause : or their own good , that ●t by the rebuking of one , all may learn to fear : or their conscience who must to day avoid him as an heathen , and lim of Satan , whom yesterday they were to imbrace as a brother and member of Christ. How clearly these things plead the brethrens both liberty , and interest in all this busines , let the indifferent reader judge . If the Officers alone be the Church , to which offenders are to be brought , and by which they are to be judged , then are they as the Church to admonish and judge those offenders , eyther apart from the body , or in the face of the publique congregation : but neyther of these two wayes ; and therefore they alone are not the Church . Not in private , or apart , for , Then may the Pastor be excomunicated before any one of the brethren know of it . Of which evill I have spoken formerly . 2. It is against the nature of the ordinance , being a part of the publick communion of the Church , and worship of God , to be performed but publiquely . Yea there is no reason , why admonitions and censures should be administred lesse publiquely then doctrine , and prayer . For the kingdome of the Lord Iesus is as glorious , as his preisthood , or propheticall office : and his throne is to be advanced as high , and made as conspicuous to the eyes of all , as his altar , or pulpit , that I may so speak . Now as the Preistly , and Propheticall offices of Christ are administred in prayer , & preaching , so is his Kingly office in government . In deed if wee thought ( as you do ) , that Christ had left his kingdom , the Church , without lawes , and officers for the government of it , or that this government were an indifferent thing alterable at the willes and pleasures of men , then wee should be as indifferent , where , or how , or by whom it were administred , as you Mr B : are . 3. The officers are to † feed the flock , one part whereof consists in government . Now if admonitions , and excommunications may be administred apart from the body , how is the flock fed by them ? or how do those Elders , vpon whom the government of the Church especially lyeth , discharge their publique Ministery , and service vnto the Lord , and his Church , to which they are called ? or how can the Church see , and know their ministration , that they may * have them in super abundant love for their workes sake , if there be cause , or contrarywise , if reason require the contrary ? or when “ they that sin , are rebuked openly , whether Elders , or people , how can the rest fear ? Yea how can these men which are to feed the flock by government , be accounted faithfull sheepheards , eyther before God , or men , if they gather not the flock together , & see they feed accordingly ? though with you Mr B. they that feed the flocks by government , never so much as see the faces of the hundred part of their sheep , and when they have a sheep in hand for straying ( it may be from a dumb sheepheard to a preacher ) they deal with him for the most part many a mile from , but never in , the place , where the particular stock walkes , whereof that sheep is . Lastly the administration of Christs kingdom , being a part of the communion of saynts , and publique worship , is to be performed of the Lords day , as well as other parts are : and to be joyned with the administration of the word , sacraments , almes , and the rest , as making all one entyre body of communion : yea in cases , to go before the rest , ( I am perswaded ) least the holy things be polluted by notorious obstinate offenders . And if † the collections for the saynts which concernes the body , be a Lords , or first day●● work , how much more the spirituall ordinances which respect the soule , eyther for humiliation , or comfort ? Yea I see not how the Church can compell any to forbeare their bodily labour in the six dayes , wherein God hath given them liberty to work , except it be vpon occasions extraordinary , and as they may be constreyned to meet for any other part of publick worship ▪ Well then it must needs be , that this Church of officers must receive , and examine complaints , reprove and censure offenders publiquely , and with the knowledge of the whole body , met together in publique assembly , and this liberty in the exequution of excommunication , you graunt the multitude , pag. 92. of your book . And surely there must be but one Church for the whole busines . But this course is more vnreasonable then the other , namely , that the brethren must be gathered together to be spectatours , whiles the officers alone sit vpon the thrones of David , to heare , and judge , excluding the brethren from all communion with them , though they be personally present . For the communion of the Church stands not in this , that men are present , and see and heare what is done , and receive proffite , ( for so may they do which are without ) but in the mutuall relation , and concurrence of the parts , and is in this ordinance onely amongst them , which are reproved , or do reprove , at least by consent , if they see cause , which are censured , or do censure . And besides it is against common sence , that the officers should be the Church representative , when the body of the Church , which they represent , is present , ( as hath been formerly shewed : ) & to call the officers alone the Church , or assembly , ( which are both one ) when the people are assembled with them as necessary parts , is to call one part of the Church , the Church , excluding an other part of it . If the officers alone be the Church to be told , and to admonish , and judge the offender , ( for there is one , and the same Church for all these ) then it must follow , that if the Officers admonish , the Church also admonisheth , and on the contrary , that if the officers refuse , the Church also refuseth to admonish an offendour : but neither the one , nor the other of these is true . First , the Elders observing sin , may and ought to admonish the party sinning , whether the Church observ it , or no ▪ yea though the whol Church be otherwise minded , yea any one of the Elders may admonish ( if he see cause ) both the rest of the officers , & the brethren also : but this admonition cannot be the admonitiō of the Ch : , except we will say the Church may admonish where shee sees no sinne , yea against her will , yea which is most senseles , except she may be sayd to admonish her self . The second point needs no great refutation . For who will say , that , if the officers refuse to admonish , and make themselves accessary vnto sin by boulstering it vp , that then the Church is also sayling , and the whole lump thereby levened , except the rest consent with them , or fayl in their personall duties : which notwithstanding might be sayd of them , and imputed vnto them , if by the Church were meant the officers . If a brother , privately considered , may bind sin privately , vpon the parties irrepentance , then may the same brother , as a part of the publik assembly , bind for his part publiquely : and so he brings the party impenitent privately bound to the Church , holding him still bound vpon the continuance of his obstinacy , but publiquely now , with the whole communion , as privately before by himself 〈…〉 th his witnes . The consequent of this argum : Mr B. graunts in his latter book , pag. 200. vpon Mr Smythes vrging Mat. 18. compared with some other scriptures much what to this purpose ; but the Antecedent ( as he speaks ) he denyes , or rather distinguisheth of these words binding and loosing which he vnderstands onely to be meant of personall wrongs against a man , but not of sinnes at all against God. But as this exposition conteyns in it two notable absurdities , the first that other men may forgive injuries or wrongs done vnto me , and secondly , that a communion of faithfull men ( for so the words are ) which is the Church , may medle with judging civile matters ( as are injuries ) otherwise then as they are sinns against God , at which they take offence , or scandalize : so is it evidently convinced by the text , when Christ speaks of † binding and loosing in heaven , whither injuries come not , save as they are sinns against God. Yea Mr B : himself graunts in another place of this book , viz : pag. 223. towards the end , that our saviour in this place , speaks of binding and loosing spiritually , and that not by the power of Christ given to Ministers , but to cōmon Christians : where he also brings sundry reasons to prove , that the binding , and loosing there spoken of , doth no way concern the Ministers , or publique Officers , but private persons ; notoriously crossing both his first book in the persons , which he will there needs have officers , and no private men , and here private persons , and no officers ▪ and his second , in the thing , which in the former place he will have merely of civil consideration , but here graunts to be meant religiously . The next reason I take from v. 19. where mention is made by Christ of prayer , by which the censures there spoken of are to be sanctifyed both before , and after they be exequuted . Wherevpon I demaund , whether the brethren present with the officers , be part of the Church , to which the offender is brought , and by which he is judged , in the communion of prayer , or no ? It will not be denied ; thence it must follow , that they are also part of the Church in receiving , and judging of the complaint , or els that they passe in , and out , and in agayn , in respect of the communion , during one and the same excercise , and the sanctification of it . They which are gathered in , or into the name of Christ , they are the Church spoken of , Math. 18. and have the power of Christ for binding , and loosing , as is evident , ver . 20. Now as me thinks it should be strange to affirm , that the brethren present with the Officers , are gathered in or into any other name then the name of Christ , so doth Paul ( drawing this rule into practise 1 Cor. 5. ) commaund , that the multitude , with the officers ( by not onely Mr B. but the Iesuites confession ) be gathered together in , or into the name of Christ , and that they so gathered , do by the power of Christ ▪ deliver to Satan the offender for his humbling ▪ ver . 4 ▪ 5 ▪ 〈…〉 Lastly , if the officers , without the brethren , be the Church for the censures , then are they the Church for the other publique ordinances of prayer , preaching , sacraments , and the like , and may minister them out of the cōmunion of the body ; neyther can there be any reason given why they should be ▪ the Church for one solemn ordinance , and not for an other , for one part of the publick communion of the Church , and not for an other . And therefore in the representative Church of the Iewes at Ierusalem were not onely the hard causes opened , about which the people came to enquire , but there were also the sacrifices offered , and other the solemn services performed , according to the dispensations of the times . And to make the officers the Church for one part of the power of Christ , and not for an other , for one solemn administration , and not for an other , ( especially having fit instruments to exequute , ) is a broken course , and indeed to devide Christ from himself . But about this something wil be sayd , though nothing against it , and namely this . That the officers are to do in one of these ordinances , as in an other , and the multitude no more in the one ▪ then in the other● and that as the officers onely are to pray , preach , and administer the sacraments , and the people not to medle with these things , so in the matter of excommunication . To this I reply sundry things . First , if the officers alone be the Church in the censures , then it is not in this part of communion , as in other parts : for not the officers alone , but the brethren with them , are the Church , in prayer , preaching , administring the sacraments and the like . And as the Church ( being the body of Christ ) is the most entire , and best compact of all bodyes , so is the communion in it most entyre , & full amongst all the parts , so far as naturall impossibilitie ▪ hindreth not . And therefore even children ( though by nature vncapable of other parts of communion , wherein it is required they should be agents , or do any thing ) yet do communicate in that one ordinance of baptism , in the administration wherof ( as of circumcision before times ) they are merely patients , and baptized in the name of the Father , Sonne , and Holy Ghost . But in other actions , and amongst other members , with whom naturall inability dispenseth not , there is a full , perfect , and intire communion , and that as sensible , and bodily amongst all , as may be , without confusion . In preaching , prayer , the Lords supper , psalmes , elections , and almes , all communicate though with some difference of order and manner of the thing . In the first which is preaching , all communicate , one officer teacheth , and the rest both officers & people are taught : in prayer one officer vtters the voice , and the rest of the Church say , Amen , & so all communicate : in the Lords supper all communicate , one by giving , or administring , and all the rest by receiving with him : in singing of psalmes all communicate , yea and that vocally , and together where they can all cōbine and concur without disorder : in elections all chuse , or are chosen : in the distribution of the almes , all eyther give or receive , and so communicate together . But now in publick admonitions , and excommunications , there must be a schism , for the body of the Church is by Mr B : excluded from the communion , ( yea though locally present ) for all the communion passeth betwixt the parties admonishing , and admonished , excommunicating , and excommunicated , whereof the body of the Church is neyther , but a very ●ipher , & a hangby . Secondly , there is great difference betwixt prayer , and preaching , on the one side , and excommunication on the other side , in respect of the ordering , and manner of dispensing those ordinances . One officer prepareth in secret , and severall from the rest for preaching , and prayer , & so administreth these ordinances lawfully , as the ordinances of the Church without the consent , yea or foreknowledge of any one eyther brother , or officer : but it is otherwise in admonition , and excommunication . The sin must be told to the Church , and they vpon knowledge of it ; must admonish the sinner , and so the excommunication is publiquely to be prepared , with the foreknowledge , & fore-consent , of the body , which otherwise the officers , ( much lesse one officer , without the knowledge or consent of eyther other officer , or people ) may not minister . One officer ▪ I confesse ▪ may admonish an offender , without the consent of the Church , yea or of any other officer , be there never so many , yea he may admonish both the officers and Church : but this can in no sense be called the admonition of the Church ▪ except wee will say one officer is the Ch : excluding both the people , and other officers , and that the church may admonish her self ▪ and that against her will , which were vnreasonable , and senseles affirmations . Thirdly , for a kind of preaching , namely : that we call * prophesying , ( and so of prayer for the sanctifying of it ) that I affirm not to be so appropriated to the ministery , but that others having received a gift there vnto , may and ought to stir vp the same , and to vse it in the Church , “ for aedification , exhortation , and comfort , though not yet called into the office of ministery , as hath been in part already , and now is more fully proved by these scriptures . Num. 11. 29. 2 Chron. 17. 7. Ier. ●0 . 4● . Math. 10. 1. 5. Luke 8. 39. & 10 , 1. 2. 3 — 9. Ioh. 4. 28 , 29. 39. Act. 8. 1. 4. with 11. 19. 20. 21. 1 Pet. 4. 10. 11. Rev. 11. 3. & 14. 6. And more specially , the Apostle 1 Cor. 14. doth of purpose , and at large handle this busines , not onely giving liberty vnto , but laying charge vpon all such ( though not in office ) as haue received a spirituall gift , to exercise the same , in the ordinance of prophesying . Now for the better vnderstanding of this point , it must be considered , that the Church of Corinth did abound with spirituall gifts , above an other Churches , both ordinary and extraordinary : which gifts of the spirit they did abuse too much unto faction , and ambition . Wherevpon the Apostle takes occasion in the beginning of the 12. hap . and so forward , to direct them in the right vse of these giftes of God , which was the imployment of them to the aedifying of the body in love : and therfore having ▪ ch ▪ 13. layd down a full description , and large commendation of that grace of love , in the 14 ▪ ch . & the beginning of it , he exhorts to prophesying , and to the study , and vse of that gift ▪ which though it were not so straunge a thing , as was the suddayn gift of tongues , not which drew with it such wonder , and admiration , yet was it more profitable for the Church ▪ and though a matter of lesse note , yet of greater charity , which must bear sway in all our actions . Against this scripture ( though in it self most pregnant for the purpose in hand ) two exceptions are taken . The one that the Apostle speaks of such persons onely , as are in office , and so of their ordinary ministeriall teaching : the other , that he speakes of such gifts , as were extraordinary , and so being ceased , that the ordinance as temporary , is ceased with them . But neyther of these rubs , must turn vs out of the way of truth , nor cause vs to forbear this most excellent , and comfortable ordinance of the Lord Iesus , wherein is to be seen , and heard the variety , and harmony of the graces of God , for the aedifying of the Church , v. 4. and gayning of the vnbeleevers , v. 24. 25. That the Apostle in this Chapter directs the Church in the vse of extraordinary gifts is most evident , neyther will I deny , but that the officers are to guide , and order this action of prophesying , as all other publick buesinesses , yea even these wherein the ▪ brethren have greatest liberty , but that he also intends the establishing of , & so takes order , and gives direction for an ordinary constant exercise in the Church , even by men out of office , I do manifest by these reasons . First , bycause the Apostle speaks of the manifestation of a gift , or grace , common to all persons , as well brethren , as ministers , ordinary , as extraordinary , and that at all times , which is love : as also of such fruits , and effects of that gaace , as are no lesse cōmon to all , then the grace it self , nor of lesse continuance in the Churches of Christ , to wit of ●dification , exhortation & comfort . v. 3. compared with 1 Thes. 5. 11. 14. Secondly verse 21. he permits all to prophesie and speaks as largely of prophesying , as of learning , and receiving comfort . But now least any should object may women also prophesie ? the Apostle prevents that obiection , and it may be reproves that disorder amongst the Corinthians , ver : 34. by a flat inhibition , inioyning them expresly to keep silence in the Church , in the presence of men to whom they ought to be subiect , and to learn at home of their housbands , v. 35. and not by teaching the m●● , to vsurp authority over them , 1 Tim. 2. 11. 12. which the men in prophesying do lawfully vse . Now this restreynt of women from prophecying , or other speaking with authority in the Church , both in this place to the Corinthians , and in the other to Tim : doth clear the two former obiections . In that Paul forbids women , he gives liberty to all men gifted accordingly , opposing women to men , sex to sex , and not women to Officers , which were frivolous . And againe in restreyning women , he shewes his meaning to be of ordinary not extraordinary prophesying , for women immediately , and extraordinarily , and miraculously inspired , might speak without restreynt . Exo. 15. 20. Iudg. 4. 4. Luk. 2. 36. Act. 21. 17. 18. The Prophets here spoken of , were not extraordinary , bycause their doctrines were to be iudged by other Prophets , and their spirits to be subiect vnto the spirits of others , v. 29. 32. where the doctrines of the extraordinary “ Prophets , were neyther subiect to , nor to be iudged by any , but they , as the Apostles , being immediately , and infallibly inspired , were the foundation vpon which the Church is built , Iesus Christ himself being the cheif corner stone . The Apostle , vers . 37. makes a Prophet , and a man spirituall all one , whom he further describes , not by any extraordinary gift , but by that common Christian grace of submission vnto the things he writes , as the commaundements of the Lord. Vnto whom also ver . 38. he opposeth a man wilfully ignorant : teaching vs , that he doth not measure a Prophet in this place , eyther by the office of ministery , or by any extraordinary propheticall gift , but by the cōmon christian gift of spirituall discerning . It is the commaundement of the Lord by the Apostle , that * a Bishop must be apt to teach , & that such † Elders or Bishops be called , as are able to exhort with sound doctrine , and to convince the gainsayers : Now except men before they be in office , may be permitted to manifest , their gifts , in doctrine , and prayer , which are the two mayn works requiring speciall qualification , in the teaching Elders , how shall the Church ( which is to chuse them ) take knowledge of their sufficiency , that with faith and good conscience , they may call them , and submit vnto them , for their guides ? If it be sayd , that vpon such occasion , triall may be taken of mens gifts , I do answer , first , that mens gifts , and abilities ▪ should be known in some measure , before they be once thought on , for officers : and 2. that there is none other vse ▪ or tryall of those gifts ▪ but in prophesying : for every thing ▪ in the Lords house is ▪ to be performed in some ordinance , there is no thing throwen about the house , or out of order in it : and other ordinance in the Church , save this of prophesying , is there none , wherein men out of office are to pray , and teach , which therefore they ought to covet , v : 39. and in it to be excercised , and trayned vp , that when officers want , the Church may not need to set vp men , as it were to play their prizes , nor send them like school-boyes to be posed , as your fashion in England is . And that minister , that is not called vpon the Churches experimentall knowledge of his sufficiency in these things , comes not in by the dore , which Christ hath opened , nor may be accounted a true minister of Christ , and his Church . Lastly , eyther men not yet in office ( being accordingly qualified ) may preach the truth of Christ , or it is not possible , that the people should be taught in lawfull manner , eyther in nations vniversally heathenish , or vniversally apostate vnder Antichrist , before there be true Churches gathered , by which the officers are to be chosen : for as it is not very like that heathenish or antichristian preists will sincerely teach the truth , neyther is it lawfull for them to administer , or for any to joyn with them in their administrations , by vertue of any heathenish , or antichristian calling , or ordination ▪ Rev. 14 ▪ 9. 10. 11. 1 Tim. 5. 22. And howsoever the Church of England hath preferred a dumb , masse , and profane preisthood with a service-book before this ordinance , yet the truth of Christ is otherwise , and so the Church of Christ is taught to practise : which you also Mr B ▪ might do well in modesty to acknowledge , though you want liberty to vse it . I haue insisted the longer vpō this point , both for it self , and bycause it serveth effectually to prove the other point in hand . For if the brethren have liberty in this ordinance of prophecy , they haue also liberty in the other ordinance of excommunication : for they are both of the same nature . Look to whom Christ gave the one key of doctrine , to them he gave the other key of discipline : and they that may handle the one , may have a finger vpō the other : they that may bynde & loose by doctrine , reproof , & comfort , they may also bynde or loose by application of the same doctrine , reproof , or comfort to the person obstinate in sin , o● penitent for it . As the one of those doth necessarily establish the other , so take away eyther , and the other cannot stand . And here I gather an other argument agaynst your exposition of Math : 18. Lastly , as the Elders principally to be imployed in teaching , cannot warrantably be chosen without good experience of their gift , and faculty , in prophesy , and prayer , so neyther can they , which are cheifly to be imployed in government , with good conscience of the Church , be called to that ministration , except they also have given , and the Church taken good proof of their ability , and simplicity in the discussing , and debating , carrying , and contriving of Church affaires , as also in admonition , exhortation , and comfort publiquely occasioned , and so manifested . And a very presumptuous sin it is in any Church , to chuse an officer , not thus trayned vp , and tryed . Wherevpon I conclude , that brethren , ( though not in officer ▪ ) have not their hands tyed from medling in the affaires of the Church , especially the censures , but are bound in their places to see to , and assist in the reformation of publique scandalls , and therefore are part of the Church , to which an offender is to be complayned of ▪ for onely they are bound to see reformation of the evill , to whom the complaint is to be made , where Christ sayth Tell the Church . It now remaynes we come to the other scripture , which Mr B. turns so lightly over , viz. 1 Cor. 5. which that wee may aright vnderstand for the present purpose two things must be considred : the one whereof is , what the Apostles scope is , and what he intends in that Chap : and the other what persons he interesseth in the busines , about which he deales . The Praelates with their obedient clergy , do cōstantly affirm , that the Apostle there reprooves the Corinthi●ns for not complayning to him of the incestuous person , that he might haue censured him , and that he commaunds them ( being now judged by him , as having the sole authority in his hands ) to exequute his sentence vpon him ; and this exposition Mr Bern. laboureth to confirm , pag. 92. 94. 98. Wee on the contrary affirm , that the Apostle in that scripture reproveth the Church of Corinth , or them , to whom he writes , for suffring ( as they did ) that wicked man uncast out , and that he now wills them to discharge that duty , wherein they had formerly fayled in excommunicating him : to which he also gives his consent , going before them , as his duty was , in judging , and withall avouching his presence in spirit , that is in will , and consent , since he could not be bodily present with them . And that this is the Apostles meaning , it is much that any man reading the chapter with an honest heart , should deny . The arguments of proof , are manifest in the particulars . 1. They ought with sorrow to have put him out . v. 2. 13. 2. They were gathered together in the name of the Lord Iesus , and were by the power of the Lord Iesus , to deliver the offender to Satan for his humbling ▪ that is , to cast him out of the Church into the world , where Satan reignes . v. 4. 5. 3. A little leven leveneth the whole lump . v. 6. wherevpon the Apostle ( alluding to the ancient custome of * putting leven out of the houses , when the Passeover was eaten ) bids the Church purge out the old leven , ( that is the incestuous man ) that they might be a new lump . v. 7. shewing therein , that they were sowred , & become an old lump , in not purging him out , els what need they do any thing to become new ? But here sundry things are objected by Mr Bernard . As first , that a man may be where leven is , and yet not be levened , if he take not leven ▪ If by taking leven he mean , enclyning or falling into the same sin , it is idle to imagine , that the whole Church was in any such daunger of incest . Where 2. he addes ▪ that a man reproving the offender , complayning of him , and seeking as he may in his place , reformation as Cloe did is not levened , he colours with a few good words many fowl errours . First , that Cloe complayned of the incestuous man , which was not so : she cōplayned of the contentions amongst the Corinthians , but that of the incestuous persō was rather brought to Paul by common fame , then otherwise . 1 Cor. 5. 1. 2 ▪ That it is sufficient for the people , yea or the Ministers eyther to reprove an offender , & so to complayn to the Bishops court of him . 3. That a man is discharged if he seek reformation as he may in his place , whereas it is first required a man have such a place , or be in such a-Church , as is capable of Gods ordinances , and wherein he may vse the meanes for reformation , which Christ hath left : other wise his very place , and standing is not of God , nor may be by him continued . La●tly , where he sayth , that the incestuous man had not levened the Corinthians bycause Paul sayth , ye are vnlevened v. 7. it is an ill collection . For they were unlevened or sweet bread in their persons , that is sanctified by the spirit , but sowred or levened in the lump of communion , by suffering that wicked man vncensured : and the Apostles desire is , that that wicked man might be cast out of the society ; that as they were severally pure , or in their persons , so the whole Church together , or masse might be pure , which before was polluted with his contagion . 4. The Corinthians had formerly been taught by Paul not to cōpany or be cōmingled with fornicators , covetous persons , &c : that is ▪ according to the drift of the whole Chapter , to cast them out , and so haue neyther spirituall , nor civil familiarity with them . ver . 9. & here he reproves them for fayling in that duty . 5. They to whom Paul writ were to judg them that were within , & are charged to use that power in putting away frō among themselves tha● wicked man. v : 12. 13. And thus the evidence for the first point is clear , that they to whom Paul writ & which were to be gathered together , were to be gathered into the name of Christ , by his power to bynde or deliver to Satan the offender as Math : 18 18 ▪ 19 ▪ 20. were to purge out the old leven , not to be commingled with the ungodly , to judge them that were within , & to put away , & from among themselves the obstinately wicked . And it is most untruly , & unconscionably affirmed by this man Pag : 92. ( as I haue formerly observed ) that all that can be gathered from this place , is that the censures are to be executed with the publick knowledge of them that are gathered together . Now the 2. consideration is , who those persons are thus to be gathered together , upon whose shoulders the Apostle layes this duty of delivering to Satan , purging but , puting away , & judging this wicked man. And for this , I need no more then M B : own confession in the place before named , pag : 92. where he expresly affirmeth , that by them that there meet together , is meant the body of the Church ▪ And though he , and all the world should deny it , yet would the truth of God stand : which I thus manifest . 1. They among whom the fornicatour was , out of the middest of whom he was to be put , & which were puffed vp , when they had rather cause of sorowing , to them the Apostle writes , them he reproves , they were to be gathered together for the excommunicating , purging out , & judging the offender , v. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. And therefore the duety here enjoyned , as well concorns the brethren as the officers , except we will say , the fornicatour was onely among , and in the middest of the officers , & to put from amongst them , and left amongst the people still , and that the officers onely were puffed vp , when they should have sorrowed , and not the brethren with them . 2. It concerned the people as well as the Preists in the type , & shadow , † to put away leven out of their houses , & to keep the Passeover with unlevened bread : and so in the truth , and substance , to purge , and put out this leven Paul speaks of , namely the incestuous person . v. 7 ▪ 8. 3. The Apostle admonisheth them , that were not to be commingled with fornicators ▪ nor to eat with them : v. 9. 10. 11. & this duety , I hope , as well concerned the brethren as the officers . 4. They with whom Paul deals are commaunded to put the wicked man from among themselves v : 13. so that the same persons , frō among whom he is to be put , are to put him away , which are both officers , & people . And so I conclude ▪ that the rule praescribed by Christ , Math : 18. & the practise of the same rule cōmended by . Paul 1. Cor. 5. do severally ▪ & joyntly couple & combine together the Elders & people in th 〈…〉 ing of an offender , the officers going before , the brethren 〈…〉 ng in their order , & the women lastly by silent cōsent , wherin the scriptures distinguish them from the men , 1 Cor : 14. 14. 1 Tim : 2. 12. To these things I will adde in the last place the consideration of a scripture , to wit , a Cor : 2. 6. which M. B : & many others with him , think of force sufficient to dash in peices all that hath been , or can be spoken for the brethrens liberty , & right in the fore-handled busines . But as I have formerly answered the objections , forced from this scripture agaynst the truth I hold , so will I here set down one Argument or two , very pregnant , ( except I be deceived ) for the confirmation of it , from the same scripture , & the context thereof . 1. They whom the Apostle by his letter made sorry , for their fayling in the casting out of the incestuous man , and that with a sorrow to repentaunce , manifesting it self , with great indignation & zeale , they were ●● reprove , and censure him , and so did , to his reformation , and their own clearing : which that it was not the case of the officers alone , but of the brethren with them , appeares in these scriptures . 1 Cor. 5. 1. 2. with 2 Cor. 2. 5. 6. & 7. 8. 9. 10. 11. 12. 2. Paul writes not onely to the officers , but to the brethren as well as to them , to forgive or loose , to comfort & confirm their love toward the same person vpon his repentance . 2 Cor. 2 , 7. 8. therein plainly witnessing , that the brethren as well as the officers , had bound , rebuked , and manifested their indignation against the sin , and the person for it . Now this point in hand I will conclude with the observation of a practise yet continued , & in use in the Church of England , which is , that persons excommunicated for notorious sinns , before they be absolved , are to do their pennance ( as they call it ) in the parrish Churches , wherof they are , and there to ask the whole Church forgivenes . Now I would know of you Mr B. whether the church have power to forgive the parties sin , ( as men can forgive sin ) yea , or no ? If you say no , you discover the shame of your Church , thus prophanely to take in vayn the name of God , and to make a mock of Christ ordinances : if you answer affirmatively , then you graunt the power of Christ to forgive , & to loose sinns , & so consequently to reteyn , and binde them , to be in the body of the Church , for which I contend ▪ The truth is , there is no such power in the parish assemblies , as now they stand , they can neyther bind the sinner , nor re●●yn his sin , be he to thē never so impenitent : or loose him , and his sin ; seem his repentance vnto them never so full , and vnfeighned ▪ these knots are to be tyed , and loosed , onely by the Chauncelours , or Officials singers , this power have they enclosed with hedge , and ditch , and as things are judged at their tribunal , so must the captived Church take them , and will it , nill it , receive or refuse the party accordingly . The Prelates , and their substitutes have seazed the substance , and kernel , as it were , into their hands , ●aving the poore people onely the shell , and shadow to feed vpon . And yet this very formall shadow stil remayning in the Apostate assēblies , i● 〈◊〉 to bewray how substātiall a power the Churches of Christ were possessed of in their constitution . This shell that remaynes shewes where the 〈…〉 hath been . And as in this , so is it in sundry other paints : When the Bishop ordeynes a Minister , he bids him 〈…〉 pel , though he have been his porter , & be known vnable to read sensibly : he vseth also th●s● words , t●ke thou authority 〈…〉 ▪ though it may be he is an 〈…〉 dred mil●● off ( but never in th● place wherein he is to minister : he gives him charge also to monster , the 〈◊〉 of Christ● , as the Lord hath commanded , though he be but the Bishops mans man to exequute his iudgements : which formes of speach , notwithstanding serue to shew , what the Ministers ought to d●● , and where , and by whose election they ought to be appointed , though in truth they do , or be nothing lesse . And ●h●● God by his providence continueth vnworn out in the degenerate assemblyes , such steps , and s●adles , as may serve to shame them , by shewing vnto all that will see , how & where things have stood by Christs appointment in his Church , which do also very well consort with the disposition of Antichrist , whose property is vnder a formall flourish for Christ to fight against him in his truth , and ordinances . Our ● . reckoned errour is . That the sin of one m●n publiquely and obstinately stood in being not reformed , nor the offender cast out , doth so pollute the wh●le congregation , that none may cōmunicate with the same , in any of the holy things of God ( though it be a Church rightly constituted ) till the party be excommunicated . This Position thus set downe I deny with Mr Ainsworth , though with him ▪ and Mr Smyth , I do vndertake the confirmation of that truth , which in his refutation Mr B ▪ goes about to impugne . And that is that the whole communion in the Church of England , is so polluted ▪ with prophane , and scandalous persons ; as that even in this respect alone , were there none other , there were just cause of separation from it . And to this purpose I will lay down a ground , vpon which I do build whatsoever I speak in this point ▪ which I intreat the reader h●re , and alwayes to observe , and that is . He that fayles in those duties for the reformatiō of the sin of an other , which the Lord 〈…〉 his hand , he is accessary to that other mans sinne , and 〈…〉 own by connivency ▪ 〈…〉 And this not onely the scriptures ▪ but e●e● common sense , and the light of nature do confirm . And upon this ground I deny your en●●neration of parts , in the case of pollution , to be sufficient . This streyn comes more wayes then you are aware of . A man may be polluted by , and guilty of the sin of another , though he neyther in iudgement ●●llow of ●● ▪ nor in affection like it , nor practise the like ▪ but the contrary ▪ yea though he speak against it , discountenance it , and brow-beat it , as you speak , when you teach your people to look big upon sin , where they dare not medle with the reproving it : & do his best in his place to reclaym the sinner , ( which are the preservatives you give against pollution ) and that th●se wayes . When a man doth not † consider or observe his brother as he● ought , nor watch over him in the holy communion of saynts wherin he is set , and which the Lord hath established for this end , that he might be honoured in the communion , and fellowship of saynts . And it is a saying onely becoming CAIN , and those that are with him of that wicked one , † am I my brothers keeper 〈…〉 Thus then a man may be guilty of the sin of an other ▪ yea though ●● be vtterly ignorant of it . And thus , it is like , was * all Israel guilty of ▪ 〈…〉 , in the excommunic●●● thing ▪ who th 〈…〉 are ●●a●g●d by the Lord to have committed as●● , and to have 〈◊〉 ▪ and 〈◊〉 ▪ and were punished by the Lord for the same , and deprived of ●●● pr●s●●●● till the excommunicate , or ex●crable thing were destroyed from among them . A 2. case of pollution is the neglect of admonition for the reformation of the offender , according to the order and degrees by Christ himself set down , secret and betwixt the offended , and offender , if the sin be of secret practise , and nature : privately , & with a witnes , or two , in the second place : publiquely in the last place by complaint made vnto the Church having the power of Christ for excommunication . Lev : 19. 17. Mat. 18. 15. 16. 17. There is yet a 3. duty and that is separation , whereof you also Mr B. in sundry cases do admit . pag. 105. and to which the Lord in the scriptures calls his people for the shaming of obstinate rebellious offenders , Rom. 16. 17. 2 Cor. 6. 14. 15. 16. 17. 1 Tim. 6. ● . the neglect whereof casts both the guilt of the sin , & condemnation of the sinner , vpon him that neglects it . So that a man is not onely bound in his place to do his best for the reclaiming of his brother , but to see his place be such as wherein he may orderly discharge the duties of admonition , otherwise both his practise , and place are vnlawfull . And you your self will teach your people this truth in the generall , that the place , or calling absolutely tying a man to the breach of any of Gods commandements , is vnlawful , and to be forsaken . Now this is your very case , and the case of the best in your Ch : , ( the Lord open your eyes you may see it , and give you harts to make a right vse of it . ) As there are in your parish whom you dare not admonish secretly , much lesse with a witnes , or two , so ( which is the last and cheifest remedy ) you cannot make complaint to the Church : your Church is not furnished with Christs power to take vengeance vpon disobedience : you are utterly unfurnished of the weapons of this warfare . Great was the slavery of the Israelites under the Philistims , when “ there was not a sword found amongst them , in the day of battel : far greater , and more to be bewayled , is your spirituall slavery under the Philistim , and Aegyptian Lords , the Praelates , which have spoyled you of all , and left you vnarmed , for the Lords battel . You know vvel Mr B. that the Officiall is not the Church & so do thousands in England with you . For all whom , how much better were it , & more agreable to true godlines , to renounce such vnsanctifyed places , and standings , wherein they doe in avoydably day , by day , steyn themselves with so many impieties of their brethren ( as though their own personall sinnes were too few ) by sayling in this most necessary duty , layd by the Lord himself vpon every brother for the reformation of his brother , then to plead , they do the best they can in their places , to reclaym them ? It will not be sufficient for men suffering themselves to be tyed short in the chaynes of Antichristian bondage frō the performance of this necessary duty , at the day of the Lord , when men shall appear to haue perished through their fault , which might haue been gayned by their admonition , Mat. 18. 15. to say they have done what they could within the reach of their chayn . But let all them that fear the Lord , and his righteous judgements , & which have hearts tenderly affected with the conscience of the duety they owe vnto their brethren , and to whom the liberty purchased with the blood of Christ seemeth pretious , break assunder those chaynes of vnrighteousnes , those bonds of Antichrist , and come out of Babylon , and plant their feet in those pleasant pathes of the Lord , wherein they may make streight steppes vnto him , walking in that light , and liberty , which Christ hath so dearly purchased for them . But for separation from a Church rightly constituted , or from a true Church ( so remayning ) I do vtterly disclayme it . For there is but ‘† one body , the Church , and but one Lord , or head of that body , Christ : and whosoever separates from the body , the Church , separates from the head , Christ , in that respect . But this I hold that if iniquity be committed in the Chruch , and complaint , and proof accordingly made , and that the Church will not reform , or reject the party offending , but will on the cōtrary maynteyn presumptuously , & abet such impiety , that then by abetting that party & his sin , she makes it her own by imputation , & enwrapps her self in the same guilt with the sinner . And remayning irreformable , eyther by such members of the same Ch : , as are faithfull , ( if there be any ) or by other sister Churches , wypeth her self out the Lords Church-rowl , and now ceaseth to be any longer the true Church of Christ. And whatsoever truthes , or ordinances of Christ , this rebellious rowt still reteynes , it but vsurpes the same , without right vnto them , or promise of blessing vpon them , both the persons and sacrifices are abhominable vnto the Lord. Tit. 1. 16. Prov. 21. 27. Now if any object the Church of the Iewes , and the obstinacy thereof in sin , and wickednes , which was a true Church notwithstanding : it must be considered , that no Church in the world now , hath that absolute promise of the Lords visible presēce , which that Church then had , till the coming of Christ , Gen. 47. 10. & 17. 7. Exod. 19. 43. 44. 45. It was simply necessary the Messiah should be borne in the true Church , wherein he might have communion , and fulfil the law . Math. 5. 17. Luk. 2. 21. 22. 23. 29. The Lord did ever affoard the Iewes , even in their deepest apostasie , some or other visible signes of his presence , and those even extraordinary , when ordinary fayled : thereby declaring himself stil to remember his promise made to their forefathers , & ever and anon by some godly King , Prophet , or Priest , or ( if these vvould not serve ) by some severe correction , destroying from amongst them the cheifest rebels , brought them to repentance , & caused them to passe a nevv into his covenaunt , as hath formerly been declared . But vvith vs it is othervvise . No Church novv can expect , or doth enjoy such extraordinary priviledges . But if it depart from the Lord by any transgression , and therein remayn irrepentant , after due conviction , and vvill not be reclaymed , it man fests vnto vs , that God also hath left it , and that , as the Church by her sin hath separated from , and broken covenant vvith God so God by leaving her in hardnes of hart vvith but repentance , hath on his part broken , and dissolved the covenant also . The Lord Iesus threatens the † Churches , for leaving their first love , and for their lukewarmnes , that he will come against them speedily , & remove there candlestick , that is dischurch them , except they repent ; & spue them as loathsome out of his mouth . There is the same reason , in due proportion , of one member sinning , of a fevv , of many , and of a vvhole Church , novv if a brother sin , and vvill not be reclaymed by the ordinary means . appointed by Christ for that purpose , he is to be accounted no longer a brother , but an heathen , & publican , Math. 18. 17. so is it with two or three brethren , with a few , with many , or with the whole Church , though there be a different order of dealing : for the multitude of sinners doth no way lessen or extenuate the sin eyther in the eyes of God or men , Now for your arguments . In handling whereof I will also take in such of your score of Reasons against pollutiō , as are worthy cōsideration . First you say , vnder the law there was a sacrifice for all manner of pollutions , but none for this , and therefore it is no sin . It is not so , for 1. if a man polluted his hands with innocent blood by murder , or his body with adultery , or wrought any other wickednes punishable by death , there was ( that I find ) no particular sacrifice for it . 2. The people of * Israel were guilty of the pollution of the Lords house , by bringing , or suffring to come , into his sanctuary , st●●ungers eyther uncircumcised in flesh , or in heart : and so there was an †‘ ●ffring to be made once a year for the purging of the holy place , and Tabernacle , for the cleansing of the Altar , & to be an attonement for the Preists and for all the people of the congregation . 3. The pollution I speak of comming onely by neglect of some duty for the reformation of a brother , cannot be denyed to be sin , and with other pollution medle I not . The godly people were never reproved for being at the ministration of holy things though wicked men were there . We graunt it in the true Church , but deny a company of impenitent sinners to remayn the true Church , being to the iudgement of men , vnrecoverable . Yea if but one haue committed the evill notoriously scandalous and the rest so tollerate him , that * litle leven levens the whole lump , and with † leven must not the Passeover be eaten in any case . And here Mr Bernard your cavelling ‘* Reply vpon Mr Ainsworth , speaking of the whole Church , & all the assembly , is answered . The Corinthians might as well haue eluded , and put of Pauls argument , and reproof , as you Mr Ainsworths : for Paul speakes of the whole lump , as Mr Ainsworth doth of the whole Church . And surely if two or three officers be the whole Church that hath the power of Christ to judge & consure offenders as you say , the whole lump might soon be levened , and the whole Church plead for open iniquity . The Prophets did not separate themselves though they cryed out against wickednes , Isa. 1. 4. 5. 6. 9. 10. &c. Both the Prophets , Preists , and people that were godly did separate frō Apostate Israel in Ierboams tyme , which we take to be your estate in a great measure , cōsidering your worship , holy dayes , Preisthood , & government . But for Ierusalem & the Church there , the case is otherwise . Touching which I desire these two Rules may be born in minde . First that ther was that one onely visible Church vpon the face of the earth , tyed to one temple , altar , sacrifice , Preisthood , in one place , & that no man could absolutely separate from that Church , but he must separate from the visible presence , and from all the solemn publique worship of God. Secondly that the Iewish Church had not that distinct ecclesiasticall ordinance of excommunication , which we now have , but that the obstinate or presumptuous offender was by bodily death to be cut of from the Lords people , the same persons namely the whole nation being both Church , and common wealth , according to that special dispensation of those times . Wherevpon it followeth , first , that since absolute separation from the Iewish Church was unlawfull , communion with it was lawfull : and 2. that since the Church had not the power to cast out an offender , it was no pollution vnto them to suffer him amongst them , so they discharged , such other duetyes , as were inioyned them , by the Lord. But it is now otherwise : the times are altered and the dispensations of them . Every place where a companie of faithful people are gathered into Christs name , is mount Syon , & hath the promise of Gods presence : and separation from one Church remayning vncurable may be made into another . And as separation may be from a Church , so may excommunication be of person , obstinately wicked . And these two Rules , rightly applyed wil ( as I am perswaded ) satisfie the scriptures and reasons brought by Mr. B. here and both by him , and others els where , from the old testament , and the vnpolluted cōmunion of the servants of God in the Iewish Church . The other scriptures I will breifly passe over . Tit. 1. 15. shewes , that all the creatures of God are pure to the pure . I graunt it , and his ordinances also . But ever provided , in their lawfull , and right vse , which in a prophane and vnsanctified communion they are not . By your exposition Mr Bernard , a godly man might eat the Lords supper with haeretiques , excōmunicates , yea Turks or Pagans , if they would , and yet all should be pure to him . Of the 2. and 3. chap. in the Revelation , I have spoken formerly , and there proved that the Churches were polluted by the tolleration of wicked persons amongst them , and therefore reproved , neyther is it materiall , if the scriptures do not expresly tax the whole Church for connivency every time they rebuked some persons in it . It is sufficient they do it in some places , and in some Churches : there is the same reason of all , neither hath one Church priviledge above an other , or for one sin , more then an other . And this also may serve for answer to the 2. & 3. of your twenty Reasons in your 2. book . Onely you must take knowledg of your ▪ grosse oversight in the latter reason , where the question being of the true matter of the Church , you bring in Noah in the old world , & L●t in Sodom vnpolluted , as though the world , and Sodom had been true matter of the Church , & Noah and Lot of the same religious communion with them . The like ignorance you shew in the 8. Reason , where you demaund why the fellowship in civil society should not be polluted , as well as religious communion . As though you had never read that † the vnbeleeving husband is sanctified to the beleeving wife for civil society , which is no way dissolved , no not though the one party be a Turk , Iew , or Atheist . And do you think Mr B. that religious communion may be held with such without pollution ? In the next scripture which is Gal. 5. 10. the Apostle no way acquites the Church of transgression , but speaks vnder hope of their repentance , which they were to manifest by avoyding & cutting off such as had troubled , and sedu●ed them , Gal. 1. 8. 9. and 5. 12. In Mat. 5. 24. 25. Christ commaunds that before a man offer his gift he reconcile himself vnto his brother . True , but where hatred is , there is no holy reconciliation : and where brotherly admonition is not , and that to the reformation of the brother offending , there is hatred , as is manifest ▪ Lev. 19. 17. And if you would improve to the right vse this scripture , it would drive you and others from your Corban , till you had discharged the dutyes of mercy to your brethren , which the Lord accepts above sacrifice . Touching 1 Cor. 11. which is the next scripture , I will speak something more largely , bycause Mr B. thinks it most pregnant for the decyding of the controversy , for that the Apostle speaking purposely of the pollution of the sacrament , bids every man examine himself , and not one an other , and that vnder peyn of eating damnation to himself , and not to an other , if he come not reverently , notwithstāding there was much evil in the Church . And is it so in deed , that , bycause men must examine themselves , therefore not others ? what warrant then have you for your Eastershrift , your examining the people before they communicate ? You I hope , are to examine your self , as well as others . And might not your people tell you out of your own book , that you have nought to do to examine them ? Might not the meanest of them say vnto you , examine your self , if I ▪ eat and drink vnworthily , it shal be myne own damnation not yours ? Yea might not any vngodly person thus answer eyther officer , or brother , that should reprove him eyther publikly , or privately ? This indeed is the common fashion in the Church of England , and nothing more common : and it is a received rule , that every man shall answer for himself , and every tub stand vpon his own bottom ▪ and brotherly admonition is accounted by the most but a precise curiosity of busy-headed people . And in this you confirm them , by your collection : teaching the offenders * to pull away the shoulder , and to stop the ●are , that they might not heare , to make the hart hard , as an adamant stone . You do then erre Mr Bern. in expounding 1 Cor. 11. 18. exclusively . It doth not follow , that because I am bound to examine my self , therefore not my brother , that is , not to observe him , admonish him , & bring him to repentance for apparant sinne , for of such an examination we onely speak , leaving to a mans self the examination of the hart , and of things secret . You may as well argue thus . We are to save our selves , Act. 2. 40. to speak vnto our selves in psalmes , &c. Ephe. 5. 19. to teach and admonish our selves , Col. 3. 16. to comfort our selves , 1 Sā . 30. 6. to edify our selves , Iud. 20. and therefore neyther to save , nor to speak to , nor to teach , nor to admonish , nor to comfort , nor to aedify others : which is contrary to these , amongst many other scriptures . Iud. 23. 1 Thes. 4. 18. & 5. 11. 14. Furthermore you your self pag. 120. of this book , make ( and that truely ) the Lords supper a testimony of that ▪ visible communion of love amongst the members . Except then there be that love , which is there testifyed , the Lords ordinance is prophaned , and his name taken in vayn . Now where admonitions are not for the purging , gayning , humbling , and saving of the the offender , Mat. 18. 15. 1 Cor. ● . 5. & 2. 6. 7. there is not true love , but hatred , Levit. 19. 17. And that true spirituall love required in the members of Christs body should be betwixt the servants of God , & notorious prophane persons , eyther way , passeth both myne vnderstanding , & affections . And to conclude this point , I would but desire you Mr B. to read the marginall note given in your authorized Bible ▪ printed at London 1603. vpon the 31. verse of this Chapter . And thus you see how pregnant this scripture is to decyde the contreversie , and to determine against you , that except reformation of sinne be orderly sought , and seasonably obteyned , there can be no right or lawfull communion in the Lords supper . And Paul in writing as he doth , provokes as every man specially to look to himself , so the whole Church together to see the reformation of the disorders amongst them . ver . 17. 18. 33. 34. Lastly for 2 Cor. 12. 11. it must be considered that the case was depending , and in hand concerning such as had sinned and not repented , and as the issue of things should be , so were the godly to carry themselves towards them : if they would be drawn to repentance , by admonition , they were to forgive them as 2 Cor. 2. 7. if not , the Church was bound to judge , and cut them of , whether Paul came , or no. 1 Cor. 5. 11. 12. 13. Wherein if they fayled , God would punish their carnall security and want of zeal , as he threatneth . Rev. 3. 14. 16. 19. To proceed , where you affirm that our position insinuates , that the sinne of one dissolves the b●nd of alleageance between God , and another , it it is no thing so . The sin , and apostasie of others can no way hinder , or praejudice our salvation , or standing with God , if wee discharge our duty towards them . But here is the oversight , that men cōsider not , that , as God hath commaunded men to worship him , receive the sacraments , and to vse other his ordinances , so he hath also called , and separated vnto himself a Church , a communion , or fellowship of saynts , and holy ones , in & amongst which those holy things are to be vsed , Psal. 147 , 19. Rom. 3. 2. & 9. 4. and that we are as well to look in what fellowship , and communion we receive the holy things of God ▪ as what the things are we do receive . And as in the naturall body there must first be a naturall vnion of the parts with the head , and one with an other , before there can be any ▪ action of naturall communion eyther between the head , and the members , or one member , and an other : so in this spirituall body ▪ the Church , the members must first be vnited with Christ the head ▪ and become one with him , before they can any way partake in his benefits , o● haue communion with him , eyther in the merits or vertue of his death , and obedience , Ioh. 15. 2. 4. 5. Rom. 8. 1. as also one with an other , as members of the same body , vnder him the head , before they can communicate in their works , or operations . Communion in works , and actions , doth necessarily presuppose vnion of persons . And if it be true which Mr B. labours so much to justify , both in his “ former , and * latter writing , that a man is onely to look to his own person , that it be holy , and to the thing in hand , that it be commaunded of God , and that it matters not , to how vnholy a society this holy person adjoynes himself , in the communion of this holy thing , then may ●e lawfully repute , and acknowledge an assembly of atheists , haeretiques , and idolaters ( though as the assembly gathered , Mark. 5. 9. ) usurping the holy things of God , for the temple of the living God , and for his * sonnes and daughter● , among whom he doth dwell , and walk there . There may he call upon God , as their common father , and say with faith , as Christ hath taught his discipls , † our father ; there may he have “ cōmunion in the body and blood of Christ , as with the members of Christ. But the Lord Iesus in teaching his Church , with one hart , and voice , to say our father , hath established an other brotherhood : & in † giving his body and blood to be eaten , and drunken of all , in communion , hath knit in one an other society . The Apostle writing vnto the Church of Corinth , compares the whole Church to a mans body , and the persons in the one , to the members of the other , viz ▪ to the head , foot , ●y , ear , hand , and other parts : and endeavouring purposely to draw them to the right vse of those spirituall gifts , wherewith they abounded , without contempt , or envie , he shewes that all have need ▪ and vse , each of others , the head of the foot , the hand of the ey , and so mutually one of an other , and that without the help ech of other , neyther could consist . Now since every part stands need of other , even the head , the cheifest , of the feet the meanest , doth it not concern the head to consider what a foot it hath ? the ey to see what an hand it hath ? and so every member to forecast , that it be coupled with such other members in this body mysticall , as may not fayl it in the time of need ? * Wo be to him that is alone ( sayth the wise man ) for if he fall there is not a second to lift him vp , but if two be together the one will lift vp his fellow , if he fall . And how behoofull both for the comfort , and safety of the severall members , and whole body it is , that joyntly and severally , all , and every part be so fitted and furnished , as they may faithfully discharge their duties , and affoard their service vpon occasion , and as need stands , and how great not onely the discomfort , but the daunger is , when there is a fayling this way , both the word of God and cōmon reason , and every mans own experience will teach him . Wherevpon I conclude , that it concernes every man as first , and most , to look to his own person , and to consider how things stand betwixt God and himself , so in the next place to take heed he joyn himself in such a communion , as wherein he may with comfort call vpon God as a cōmon father , and partake in his ordinances by a cōmon right to him , & the rest : & that being so joyned , he fayl not the body , or any member of it , as there is need of his help , & service , otherwise Mr B. reasons will not bear him out , no not though for scores , he put hundreds , which being compared with the scriptures , and grounds from them formerly layd down , will appear to be the very froath of his own lipps , neyther solid , nor savoury . Next Mr B. reduceth to certayn heads such places of scripture , as forewarn Gods people to separate themselves , and that first vnder the law , as 1. from Idols of false Gods , as Israel from Aegyptian , Babylonish , or heathenish Gods , and Idolaters dwelling about them . 2. From Idols of the true God , as Iudah from Israell in Ieroboams time , and after . 3. From persons ceremonially polluted . In the time of the gospell . 1. From Iewes not receiving Christ , but rayling against him . 2. From Gentiles without Christ. 3. From Antichrist vnder the shew of Christ , persecuting Christians . 4. From familiarity private with men excommunicate , or of lewd life , &c. which places , you say , no way concern you at all , and so you give a very ample testimony of your selves , if we durst beleeve your words , against our own knowledge . Your first head I let passe , and in answer vnto your second , affirm thus much ▪ that in your constitution , you are partly , as the Aegyptians , in respect of your bondage : partly , as the Babylonians , in respect of your confusion : and partly as Ieroboams Church , in respect of your Apostacy in your devised preisthood , sacrifices , and holy dayes : the Lord having appointed no such Ministery , as your preisthood , no such sacrifice as your service book , no such holy dayes , as your single , and double feasts : which you have forged of your own harts . Touching separation from persons ceremonially polluted , it must be cōsidered , that ceremonies have their signification , and shadowes their substance . The ceremony then was , that , † whosoever touched a dead person , or a person , or thing unclean , was vnclean : & whom , or whatsoever the vnclean persōtouched , that person , or thing was vnclean : so that a persō vnclean did not onely pollute the thing he touched to himself , as Mr B. vvould haue it , but to others also : whosoever touched the thing that he touched , was polluted by it . What is then the substance of these ceremonies ? Who is now a leper , but he which hath the leprosy of sinne arysing in his forehead ? Who hath an issue of blood vpon him , but he in whose soul , and body the issue of sinne runneth vnstopped ? Who is the dead person now that may not be touched without pollution , but he that is dead in trespasses , and in sinnes ? And who toucheth such an vnclean person , if he that becomes , and remaynes one body with him , by spirituall communion , and a member of him , touch him not ? Rō . 12. 4. 5. 1 Cor. 10. 16. 17. & 12. 12. 13. Thirdly , if separation be lawfull from persons not receiving Christ , but rayling against him , then is communion vnlawfull with any assembly in the land , wherein there are many , which remayn in vnbeleif as their works declare , Iam. 2. 20. and so receive not Christ. Ioh. 1. 12. but do on the contrary both revile and persequute him in his graces , servants , and ordinances : howsoever for fear or fashion , they be content to be accounted Christians . Now for separation from Gentiles without Christ , & from Antichrist , vnder a shew of Christ , persecuting Christians , as the scriptures do account of antichristianism , as of haethenism in this respect , calling it * Babylon , Sodom , Aegypt spiritually , and so warning the Lords people to come out of it : so for the second point , I do not yet beleive , whatsoever you write , but you Mr Bernard , are as verily perswaded as my self , that the Church of Engl. formally considered in her lawes , & canons ecclesiasticall , contrived , & exequuted by the prelates , & their substitutes , doth persecute Christians vnder a shew for Christ. That the Bishops make a shew for Christ , all graunt : and that they persequute true Christians , let your prisons be searched , and there will want no records : and if you yet will passe by the poor brethren of the separation , as the Preist , and Levite did the wounded man , which had fallen among theeves , Luk. 10. and will take no knovvledge of vs , ask your ovvn brethren , the godly Ministers , vvith vvhose supply against vs , you back your book , and I doubt not , but the suspensions , and deprivations of the most of them for refusing the Prelates badges , and liveries , the surplice , typpet , and the like , vvill testify vvith vs the persequutions of the Antichristian Praelacy , against Christians . The separation you admit of in the last place is from familiar accompanying in private conversation with men excommunicate , or of levvd life worthy to be excommunicate , when neyther religion commaundeth , &c. What Mr B. ought men to avoyd familiarity with excommunicates onely in private conversation , and not both in the private , and publique worship of God ? Is there any religious familiarity , or communion save in the Church , out of which excommunicates are cast ? The Iewes had no religious communion at all with heathens ▪ or persons † vncircumcised , which therefore might not enter into the sanctuary of the Lord , though you be driven in answer to Act. 21. 28. 29. to affirm they might . 2 book pag : 175. and as such , must wee account them , that refuse to hear the Church . Mat. 18. 17. And as no religious communion eyther private , or publick , may be held with persons iustly excōmunicated by the Church , so neyther with such lewd persons , as deserve excommunication , and are thereof clearly convinced , though the Church want grace to cast them out . The Churches vngodly cōnivency , & vpboulstring them in their scandalous sinns , makes them nothing the better , but it self in truth like vnto them , as * he that brought a thing abominable into his house , was accursed like it : how much more , if he eyther bring it into , or keep it in Gods house ? And how we are to avoyd persons incorrigibly wicked , whether Idolatours , Haeretiques , or prophane livers , ( the common bonds of naturall , and civill society ever kept inviolated ) which as they are to the Lord , so ought they to be vnto vs abominable ) see these scriptures , Act. 2. 40. 47. & 19. 19. Rom. 16. 17. 1 Cor. 5. 11. 2 Cor. 6. 14. 15. 16. 17. Gal. 1. 8 , 9 ▪ 1 Tim. 6. 3. 4. 5. 2 Tim. 3. 2. 3. 4. 5. Tit. 3. 10. which places do not onely forbid private and voluntary familiarity , as you speak , and affirm , but religious also ( to which you vnskilfully oppose voluntary , where no society is so voluntary , as that which is religious ) and that both private and publique . Neyther is there any reason , whither we respect the glorie of God , or our own safety , or the avoyding of offence in others , or the shaming of the partyes why we should avoyd civil communion with any , and yet hold religious communion with them . To conclude , since the Lord wil be glorified by his people , not onely severally , and in their persons , but ioyntly , & in their holy cōmunion , and hath given them in charge to exhort , comfort , admonish , & reprove one an other , as there is cause , and in the order he hath prescribed , as also according to the same order , to sequester , censure , reiect , and avoyd persons incorrigible , and infectious , the brother or brethren fayling in these duties , are steyned , and polluted , not by other mens sinns ( which can no way hurt them , or the holy things they vse , save to themselves ) but by their own swarving , and neglect , from , and of , such duties , as wherein they are to acquite themselves , in their most streyt , and sacred bond of communion . Onely before I end , I must touch one point of deep divinity set down by Mr B. for the purpose in hand : which is , that the Lord takes a people to be his , before he commaund them : and that commaundements are for his people to rule them , not to make them his people . But how agrees this ( to let passe his former book ) with that which he not onely writes , but substantially proves , pag. 277. of his second , that , when the L. sets vp a people to be his people , first he gives them his word , which is his ordinance to make them his people , his power to subdue thē , the meanes of reconciling thē , that , by which he extols a people above other people ? Well Mr B. ( to let passe your inconsiderate lightnes in those weighty matters , wherein you exceed Mr Smyth , for that , where he confutes one book by an other , you confute yours by it self , in an other place ) howsoever your nationall Church were not made the Lords people by his commaundements , but by the commaundements , precepts , and proclamations of men , yet would the L. Iesus haue his Churches gathered , and men made his people , by the publishing , & preaching of his commaundements , wherewith he furnished his Apostles for the making of disciples , by the knowledge , faith , and obedience of them . Mat. 28. 19. 20. The ● . errour layd to our charge is , our holding , That every one of their assemblies , are false Churches . If one of them be , then are they all , for they are all , and every one of them cast in the same mould ? We professe we put a great difference betwixt person , and person amongst you , and do not doubt ( God forbid wee should ) but there are hundreds , and thowsands amongest you , having assurance of saving grace , and being partakers of the life of God , in respect of your persons : but considering you in your Church-communion , & ordinances , we cannot so difference you , but must testify against your apostasie , as wee do . And let it not be greevous vnto you , Mr B. or vnto any other , that in this regard , we speak thus generally and alike of you all , without exception : for even your own Church intendeth you all , and every one of you alike , without exception : as appeareth , in that it appointeth one set service in so many words to be sayd , by all , and every Minister , to all , and every parish , & person in it . It appoints one set form of words , wherein all persons , without exception , must be maryed , all women without exception after child-bearing , purified : all children born in the kingdom baptized , all sick persons visited , and all dead persons buryed without exception . How shall we then sever you in the things , wherein you joyn your selves ? or put a difference where your selves put none ? And where further ( as loath to let fall the plea of the wicked ) you do adde , that God called Israell his people after defection , and their children in respect of circumcision his children . Ezech. 16. 21. 22. I answer , first , that the Lord did not call them his children in respect of circumcision ( for the “ Scechemitcs were circumcised , and yet were not Gods people , not their children his children ) and 2. that the Prophet speaks of the first born , which by right did in a speciall manner apperteyn to the Lord , Exod. 13. 2. though he were most injuriously defrauded of his due . Where you proceed and say , that some in the Acts , 19. 2. which were ignorant of the holy Ghost , were called beleevers , that is too grossely applyed to the ordinary gifts of the holy Ghost , which is meant of such extraordinary visible giftes , as wherewith God did for a time beautify the Church , which these persons also there spoken of , did afterwards receive by imposition of hands by Paul , vers . 6. For the Churches of Corinth , and Pergamus , with whose corruptions as with a buckler , you would cover your selves , it must be remembred , that they , and every person in them , were in their cōstitution , separated by voluntary profession into covenaunt with the Lord , and did with their covenant receive power and charge to reform such evills , as might break out amongst them , which if they neglected , they brake covenant with God , and so forfeyted , on their part , both their covenant , and power , provoking the Lord , if they repented not to break with them , & shortly to remove their candlestick out of his place . That which you adde the last , and in deed the worst of all the rest , is , that the Church of Christ , is set out even by the naming , that is by the profession of the name Iesus Christ. Rom. 15. 20. But the Apostle intends no such matter , but onely to magnify his Apostleship by this amongst other the notes of it , that he had preached the gospell , where before there had been no sound of it . And if the naming of Iesus Christ set out a Church , then are the Papists ( besides other haeretiques ) a true Church , for they name Iesus Christ , as oft as you , and with as many courtesies . But things are best discerned in their particulars , and to them you discend , saying , that that congregation which is false , hath a false head , false matter , false form , and false properties , which ( say you ) cannot be avouched against our congregations . And what if but some of these be false , and not all ? To make a thing true must concurre all the essentiall parts , and properties : but to make it false , there needs not be all false , some few will do it . For the particulars . You haue no false head , bycause you hold Iesus Christ , and worship no other God , but the Trinity in vnitie . The Papists also worship the Trinity in vnity , and in word , and in the generall , confesse Christ their head : and you in deed , and in the particulars , many of them do deny his headship . Christ is the head onely of his body , Col. ● . 17. But the body of Christ consists not of the lims of Sathan , of which your nationall Church was for the most part gathered , & compact , after the generall apostasie of Antichrist , and of such it consists at this day : except you will deny that they are the lims of Sathan * the eyes of whose minds he bl●ndeth , that the light of the gospel should not shine in them : † which do the lusts of the divell , and are his children : which “ commit sin : which persequute the godly , and *‘ cast in prison the servants of Christ. Now tell me not , Mr Bern. of the wicked persons in the Churches of Corinth , Thiatyra , and the rest ; for these Churches were not gathered of any such outwardly , and so appearing : it is blasphemy against the Apostles so to affirm : and if any appearing such were afterwards suffred , it was a ●anker in the Churches which in tyme ate out the harts of them . As therefore the Papists make the Church a monstrous body , in setting two heads over it , Christ , & the Pope ; so do you make Christ a monstrous head , in vniting vnto him mēbers of so contrary a nature . And let the prophane world make as small account of it , as they list ; it is certayn , no false doctrine , haeresy , or Idolatry can more eyther displease , or dishonour God , and his Christ , then wretched men , in word professing his truth , and name , and in deed denying both him , and them . Further you have not Christ the head of your Church in the administration of his propheticall , preistly , and kingly office : which I will onely point at ▪ referring the reader to such other treatises , as do more fully confirm these things , & in speciall to Mr Ainsworth his arguments disproving the present estate & constitution of the Church of England ; against which his playn proofs your idle exceptions Mr Ber. wil be as easily answered , as read . First then , your Church admitteth not of the ordinance of prophesying , or teaching out of office , Rom. 12. 6. 7. which as I have formerly proved to be a perpetuall ordinance for the Church , so how profitable it is , both for the edification of them within , and conversion of them without , we find by experience , and the scriptures declare ▪ 1 Cor. 14. 3. 24. 25. 2. You silence the Lord Iesus in your Church from revealing the whole will of his father . A part of his word is vtterly excluded by your calender , & may not so much as be read in your Church , but is justled out by the Apocrypha writings : a greater part even the most of that which concerns the true gathering , and governing of the visible Church , though it may be read , yet may it not be faithfully taught , much lesse obediently practised : notwithstanding any charge of the Prophets , Apostles & Christ himself . Deu. 29. 29. Math. 28. 19. 20. Rom. 16. 25. 26. 2 Tim. 3. 16. 17. so that though you haue the whole will of God in your books , as Papists haue , yet in respect of the doctrine , and obedience of a great part of it , the book is sealed vp , and may not be opened . And to make vp the measure , you have in stead of the canonicall scriptures of the holy Ghost , mens Apocrypha scriptures , the books of homilies , and that of common prayers , your popish canons , and constitutions , ( which are as well the doctrine of your Church , as the canons of the Tridentine councell are the doctrine of the Church of Rome ) and ( if you will ) in stead of Prophets to teach , your significant ceremonies , the cap , surplice , crosse , typpet , which are neyther dark , nor dumb , but apt to stir vp the dull mind of man to the remembrance of his duty to God , by some notable signification . Here is drosse for silver , and for the finest wheat , chasse . Lastly your Prophets which administer that part of Christs prophecy , or of the scriptures , which may be taught , and practised amōgst you ▪ haue neyther the true office of ministery , which Christ hath prescribed , nor a lawfull calling to that they have : as hath been in part noted from Ephe. 4. and is els where clearly evinced . Now Christs preistly office you do corrupt , and prophane vnsufferably , whether we respect the persons , or things whereof you make him a mediator . Are those Atheists , and vngodly persons , wherewith you cōfesse in the beginning of your book , your Church is full , and which if you should deny , heaven and earth would witnes against you , are they I say , their soules , and bodyes , those * lively , holy , and acceptable sacrifices , and offerings sanctified by the holy Ghost ? Are those devised , printed , and stinted collects , read out of your humane service-book , the † spirituall sacrifices of prayer , and thanks-giving , which the spirit of God teacheth the sonnes of God to offer , the fruits and calves of the lipps which confesse his name ? Is that constreyned payment of a weekly , or monethly rate , and assesment for the poore ( more fitly called a malevolence , for the ill will it is payd with , then a benevolence ) that * gratious cheerfull care for the saynts , that freewill offering of love , and mercy , that sweet smelling odour , that acceptable , and well pleasing sacrifice vnto God ? Are these , I say , those sacrifices , for which Iesus Christ the eternall high preist appeareth for ever before his father in heaven , that he might offer them vnto him in the golden censure , perfumed with the odours of his own righteousnes ? or are they to be sanctified by the golden altar of his merits standing before the throne of God ? Rev. 8. 3. 4. Math. 23. 19. A lesse indignity sure it was to lay vpon the materiall Altar in the tabernacle , or temple , doggs , swine , vultures , and all vncleane beasts , and byrds , with their durt , and dung , then thus to lay vpon this heavenly altar , those † unclean beasts , and byrds , whereof Babylon is an habitation , and cage . And for Christs kingly office , who is able to set down the indignities , & outrages offered in your Church to the scepter therof ? For first where Christ reigneth as the King in Syon , his holy mountayn , ruling over his servants , and subjects onely , as “ the King of saints vnder his father , you have gathered him a kingdom , & crowned him the King thereof ( contrary to his expresse will ) of known traytours , and rank rebels vnto his crown , and dignity : even of such as do visibly , and apparantly fight for Satan , and his kingdom , the kingdom of darknes , hating , deriding , and persecuting to the vtmost of their power , all such as desire to please , and serve Christ in any sincerity . Of such , and none other , doth the body of your Church consist , for the greatest part , as all amongst you that feare God will testify with me . 2. Where Christ ruleth over his subjects by the scepter of his holy word , which is * a scepter of righteousnes : in the place of it , the vngodly canons , and constitutions of Popes , and Prelates must , and do bear sway . Such subjects , such lawes . And say not , Mr B. as you do , in answer to Mr Ainsworth , pag. 259. that you acknowledge no other law-giver over your consciences in matters of saith , and obedience , between Christ , and you , save him alone . For what doth your Church representative but bind conscience , in binding men to subscribe to the Hierarchy , service-book , and ceremonies , spont● et exanimo ? in pressing men to the vse of things reputed indifferent , absolutely , and whether they offend , or offend not ? in tying men to a certayn form of prayer , & thanksgiving : excommunicating men for the refusall , and omission of these , and the like observances of their lawes ? And vvhat do you but loose and vnbind the conscience , in tolerating , yea approving , yea making , and ordeyning vnpreaching Ministers , and in binding the people , vnder both civil , and ecclesiasticall penalties to their ministrations , in their own parishes , and from others ? And what do you els in your dispensations for pluralities , non-Recidency , and the like ? Are not these matters of conscience with you Mr B. wherein your lawes , and law-makers bynde and loose , as they list ? All the lawes , and ordinances for the ministery and government of the Iewish Church , were matters of faith , and obedience between God , and the Church , bynding the consciences of the people : and is the new testament lesse perfect then the old ? and the lawes , and ordinances for the administration of it lesse excellent , and of a baser foundation then the former ? It matters not what your words are , since it appeares by your deeds , that you vsurp the throne of Christ , in appointing officers , and making lawes for the government and administration of his kingdome the Church : and those many of them to the abolishing of his , herein rather holding Christ as a captive , then honouring him , as a King. 3. Where Christ hath given to his Church liberty , power , and commaundement , every one of them severally , and all of them joyntly to reprove and reform disorders , and whatsoever is found , whether person or thing , faulty , and disagreing vnto his word : alasse this liberty is enthralled , this power lost , this commaundement made of no force . The Prelates haue seazed all these royalties into their hands , as though they alone were made partakers of Christs kingly annoynting , & were as Kings to rule in his Church . Here is a King in a great measure without subjects , without lawes , without officers , without power . But here I must needs observe a few things about two answers given by † Mr B. in his 2. book to two of Mr Ainsworths obiections about the matter in hand . To the former being about the officers of Christ in the Church , he answereth , that they have Christs officers appointed to govern ; the civil Magistrate , the Kings Maiesty , the ruling Elder , next vnder Christ , &c. and the ecclesiasticall governours vnder him , the Bishops , who are also Pastours , and Doctours . But you should have considered Mr Bern. that the question is not about civill but ecclesiasticall governours . The King in deed is to govern in causes ecclesiasticall , but civilly , not ecclesiastically , vsing the civil sword , not the spirituall for the punishing of offendours . And if the King be a Church officer , then he is , first , a King of the Church : ● ▪ to be called to his office , and so deposed from it by the Church , or at least by other ecclesiasticall persons , by whom alone you will have Church officers made . And lastly , if the King be such a ruling Elder , as the scriptures speak of , he is inferiour to the teaching Elders , and deserves lesse honour then they . For so the Apostle orders things . Rō . 12. 7. 8. 1 Tim. 5. 17. Now in making your Bishops , Pastours , & Doctours , you are double forgetfull of your self , and double injurious vnto them , and which is worse then both the rest , you sin against the Lord , & his truth . For the first , in your former book you made your Bishops cheif officers in the Church , and the successours of the Apostles , and Evangelists , and here you make them Pastours , and Teachers , which are the lowest orders of officers , that ▪ Christ gave for the work of the ministery . Ephe. 4. 11. 2. if your Bishops be Pastours , and Teachers by their office , what are you , and the rest of your rank ? You and they have not the same office , but you an office vnder them , and so Pastours and Teachers being the lowest order that Christ hath left in his Church , your order must needs be something vnder the lowest , and of an others leavings then Christs . 3. in making your Bishops the Pastours & Teachers of the Church of England , or the particular Churches in it , you lay to their charge an accusation , which they will never be able to answer at the day of the Lord , which is , their not feeding of so many thowsand sheep committed vnto them to be fedd , and taught by them . Lastly , nothing is more vntrue , and disagreable to the word of God , then that your Provinciall , and Diocesan Bishops are the Pastours , and Teachers given by Christ to his Church . There were no other ordinary officers left or appointed by the Apostles , in the Churches but such as were fixed to particular congregations , ordinarily called Bishops or Elders , Act. 14. 23. & 20. 17. 28. Phil. 1. 1. And if it can be shewed , that , by the word of God any other officers were left , or appointed in the Church after the extraordinary officers , Apostles , Prophets , Evangelists , whose gifts , and places vvere extraordinary , besides such Bishops , and Elders , as vvere limited to particular Churches , I vvill yeeld this vvhole cause in the point of the Ministery , and so professe . The other of Mr B. answer I mynd , is , about the power of Christ , against sin , Sathan , Antichrist , the want whereof , Mr Ainsw : and that truely , objecteth against the English assemblyes . Mr B. defence summarily is , that , there is in the Church of England , the preaching of the word , which is the power of Christ , Rom. 1. 18. as also excommunication , though not in every parrish , yet in the Church of England in which is comprehended all parrishes , and all superiour power over them . For which let the Reader observe these particulars . First a national Church since Christs death , and the dissolution of the Iewish Church , is amonstrous compound , and savours of Iudaism . Secondly , if the mayn part of the power of Christ be to be administred in a particular congregation , by the ordinary officers thereof ▪ namely the preaching of the gospell , why not the inferiour part , the censures also , save that the Byshops to Lord it over all , will keep this rod in their own hands ? Thirdly , the Ministers whose judgments & reasons you avouch , both say , and prove , in the latter end of your book , that this power is given to a particular congregation of faithful people . Fourthly , you your self lay it down as a mayn ground against popularity , and withal sundry scriptures to prove it , that Christ hath appoynted the same sorts of men in his Church for preaching , administration of the sacraments , and government . Lastly it is apparant , that the particular Church of Corinth † gathered together in the name of the Lord Iesus , had the power of the Lord Iesus for excommunication : and so hath every other faythful assembly in the world , as they had , which since your assemblyes are not , they may want this power without any great wrong : the evil onely is , that it resteth in a worse place , then the worst parrish assembly , the Bishops court , or consistory . I proceed . Onely my desire is , that the things which I have noted touching Christs kingly office , be the more carefully observed by all the people of God , and servants of Iesus , in respect of that most direct opposition , which in those latter dayes is made against it , and the administration thereof . For as in the first tymes after Christs comming in the flesh , his prophetical office was directly impugned , by Iewes , and heathens , so as it was † not lawful to speak in his name , & since that his preisthood by the masse-preisthood , & sacrifices in the popish Church , so now in the last place doth Sathan in his instruments bend his force most directly against , and with might and mayn oppose the sovereignty , and crown of our Lord Iesus that he may not rule in his Church , by his own officers , and lawes . The matter , you say , is not false , and to shew this you note a difference between true matter , false matter , and no matter . As you speak that , which neyther any other , nor yet your selfe , can vnderstand of false matter , so you call them no matter , which make no profession of Christ at all , ●● Iewes , Turk●s , Pagans , and all them true matter to wit , visible , which openly professe this ●●yn truth , that Iesus the sonne of Mery is the sonne of 〈…〉 Christ the Lord , by whom onely , and 〈…〉 they shal be saved . Many greivous errours are bound vp 〈…〉 invective of Mr Bernards , but for prophanenes , this one surmounts them all . For what can be spoken more prejudicial to the glorie of God , or deragotory to the body of Christ , h●● that any person , but pronouncing so many words , how fil 〈…〉 ious soever he be in his life , or what errours soever he mingle with this truth , is notwithstanding true visible matter of the Church , or a true member of Christs body visibly , or so far , as men can iudg , and so must be received & acknowledged . Against this odious , and prophane errour , I wil first deal by some clear Arguments proving the contrary , and then come to the allegations he makes for his vngodly purpose . If all , that professe this mayn truth , Iesus the son of Mary &c. be true matter of the Church , then are most notable haeretiques true matter of the Church . The Apellites , C●rdo●●ans , and Marcio●●●es holding two contrary beginnings , or Gods , the one good , the other evil : the Macedonians denying the Holy Ghost to be God : the Cer●●●hyans holding that Christ is not yet risen from the dead : the Paternians affirming the inferiour parts of the body of man to be created of the Divill : the Patric●●●● holding so of the whole body : the Novatians , and Cathari , denying repentance to them that sin : the Nicholaitans holding community of all things : the Swenk seldians , and Enthusiasts denying the outward ministery , & wayting vpon the revelation of the spirit alone : and with these many others , as ill , or worse then they , professing notwithstanding this mayn truth , as the most of them did , and do . Then are excommunicates , true matter of the Church , though cast out for notorious wickednes , for many of them hold these mayn truthes , and many more , yea more then Mr B. himself doth . Then is the true matter of the world , and lims of the Divell , ( for such are all wicked persons whatsoever truth they professe , Ioh. 8. 44. and 15. 19. Rom. 6. 16 2 Tim. 2. 26. 1 Ioh. 3. 8. 12. ) true matter , and members of the Church . They that are Christs , have crucified the flesh , with the affections , and lusts of ●● . Gal. 5. 24. therfore persons visibly wicked are not visibly Christs , and so not visibly or in respect of men , true matter of the Church , or members of his body . That which destroyes the Church , & makes it become eyther a false Church , or no Church at all , cannot make a true Church , or be the true matter , whereof it is made ; for these things are contrary . But wicked men , whatsoever they professe in word , make the Church a Synagogue of Sathan , and very Babylon , which is an habitation of Divils , and hold of all foul spirits , Rev. 18. 2. provokes God to remove the candle-stick that is to dischurch a people , and to spew them out of his mouth , Rev. 2. 5. and 3. 16. Mr B. had need be a skilful workman , which can make a true Ch : of Christ , of that matter , which makes the true Churches planted by the Apostles themselves , eyther false , or no Churches at all . They which are true visible matter of the Church , or true visible christians , have Christ for their King visibly , or in outward appearance , and so far as men can judge : ( for by visible , we mean that which may be seen of men , opposed to invisible , which onely God seeth ) for Christ is not devided , but look to whom he is a Preist to save them , & a Prophet to teach thē , to the same persons he is also a K. to reign , & rule over them ▪ but he is not a King to any ungodly ones , neyther doth he , but Satan , and their lusts reign over them . If profession in word , with a wicked conversation , make true matter of the Church , then an apparantly , a flat contradiction , a known sinne , & that which makes men more abhominable , makes them true matter of the Church . For he that sayth , he hath fellowship with God , or beleeves in Christ , and yet walkes in darknes , doth ly , and doth not truely , 1 Ioh. 1. 6. He that professeth Christ to be his saviour , and doth wickednes , contradicts himself ( for Christ is not a saviour of the wicked ) & sinns against the 4. cōmandement , in taking Gods name in vayn . Other reasons might be brought for the ●●iction of this soul , & prophane errour , for truth vnanswerable , & for nūber sufficiēt to make a volume : but these may suffice for the present : some other I will intermingle , as occasion shal be offered in the examination of that , which Mr B. brings for the confirmation of his assertion . For which end he sets down 4. Reasons . The sum of the three first is thus much : viz : that Christ , & his Apostles preaching the gospell , such as beleeved the same , and made profession of it , and of their faith , were without stay , or let , received into the Church as true matter . We are as farr from denying this order of gathering Churches , as you are from enjoying it , Mr B : you needed not to have made three distinct proofs of this , which no man denyes : nor to have brought so many scriptures as you do , for the confirmation of that , which wee graunt with you , and practise without you . But herein you deceive the simple reader in that you separate , and disioyn those things , which then were , and alwayes should be ioyned together : and they are faith , and repentance . These two ioyntly did Christ himself preach , and Iohn Baptist before him , and the Apostles after him : and these two were preached to , and required of every one both man , and woman , which was admitted into the Church , Mat. 3. 2. 6. Mark. 1. 15. Act. 19. 4. Luke 13. 3. 5. & 24. 47. Act. 2. 28. & 8. 37. & 19. 18. But now bycause faith , & repentance are inward graces resydeing in the hart , and known to God alone , which knoweth the hart , and that the profession , and confession of them are the ordinary meanes by which these hidden , and invisible graces are manifested , & made visible vnto men , there was no cause , but they , which made this profession to men , in sincerity , so far as men could judge , should by men be deemed , and acknowledged for true members of Christ , and fit matter for the Lords house . And so if by any other means men manifested themselves to have fayth , and holynes wrought in them ( though they made neyther profession of faith , nor confession of sinnes ) yet were they , ( and so ought to be ) intitled , and admitted to the liberties of the Church , as appeareth , Act. 10. 44. 46. 47. And vppon this very ground also it is , that the children of the faithfull are of the Church , and baptised , though they make no profession of faith at all , bycause the scriptures declare them to be within the gratious covenant of Gods mercy , and love , and vnder the promises of the gospel , and so by vs to be reputed holy . Gen. 6. ● . & 17. 7. 8. 9. 10. Deut. 29. 10. 11. 12. 13. Act. 2. 39. Rom. 11. 16. 1 Cor. 7. 14. so that it is not for the profession of faith ▪ ex opere operate , or bycause the party professing vtters so many words , that he is to be admitted into the Church : but bycause the Church by this his profession , and other outward appearances , doth probably , & in the judgement of charity , ( which is not causlesly suspitious ) deem him faithfull , and holy in deed ▪ as in shew he pretendeth . But that a man of a known lewd conversation , & appearing still to remain in his sinne ( whatsoever in word he professeth ) should be received into the Church , ( out of which he ought to be cast though he were one of it ) or should have baptism administred vnto him , ( which is as Mr B. rightly confirms from the scriptures , the seale of the forgivenes of sinns , of new birth , & of salvation , ) being judged not to have the forgivenes of sinns , nor to be born a new , nor to be in the estate of salvation , were a most desperate and prophane practise , then which I know not , whither the Divel hath brought any other into the Church , more derogatory to Gods glory , or prejudiciall to mans salvation . This were to make the way of the kingdome of heaven broad enough , by which al the Atheists in the world might enter into the Church , and certaynly would every one of them , if the Magistrate should vse his compulsive power , as it is in Engl : at this day : yea a parrat might be taught to say over so many words , yea the Divel himself ▪ ( though he were known so to be ) would not stick for his advantage to vtter them , and so might be true matter for Mr Ber : Church . The material † templi was to be built onely of costly stones ; of ceda●s , firres , and the like special trees , and those all prepared before hand ▪ hewed , and perfit for the building , so that neyther hammer , nor ax , nor any tool of iron , was to be heard in the house in the building of it . * By the gates of the house were the porters set , that none , that was vnclean in any thing , should enter in . Vpon the altar there might be " offered no vnclean beast , no nor that which was clean , having a blemish vpon it . And is any rubbish , and ri●rat now good enough for this † spirituall house and temple of God , the Church , whereof the material temple was but a carnall shadow ? may the porters , the officers , let into it , the clean , & vnclean , without difference ? may dogges , and swyne , and all vnclean beasts and byrdes promiscuously be offered vpō * the altar we have in our spiritual tabernacle ? God forbid . And far be it from the servants of the Lord to prepare his Maiesty such a house to dwell in , or to defile his holy things with such vnclean persons , or to offend his nostrels with the stench of such sacrifices . Yea , whosoever shall bring me this doctrine , that a man of known wicked conversation , without such appearance of repentance , as the Church by the word of God , & rule of charity , is to judge true , may by warrant of the word , or practise of the Apostles , be received , and admitted into the Church , by the pratling of a verball profession , I will hold that man , yea though he were an angel from heaven , accursed . And for the places which Mr B. brings for this purpose , they are so evident against him , as when I read them , I do even wonder , with what conscience , modesty , or wisdome , he could set them down . They do speak in deed of faith , and the profession of faith , in , and by such , as were received into the Church : but of what fayth ? of a dead faith without works , as “ Iames speaks ? or fruitfull in evil works , which is worse ? nothing lesse , but of such a faith , as hath the expresse promise of * life eternall annexed vnto it , even of that faith , which purifieth the heart , and worketh by love towards God , and man. The places of scripture are these , Rom. 10. 9. Ioh. 1. 12. & 3. 36. Ioh. 17. 3. Act. 2. 36. & 8. 37. & 9. 20. & 11. 26. & 16. 31. 33. & 19. 4. ● . & ●8 . 28. Luk. 24. 47. 1 Cor. 15. 3. & 3. 11. Godly reader view the places one by one , and see if any one of them speak of a verball faith , onely begot in the mouth , or of such a profession of faith , as hath ioyned with it a prophane conversation ; the contrary will appear as cleare as the sun , and in it , how evill a conscience this man vseth thus to pervert the scriptures to the maintenance of a vile opinion , and prophane practise . Your 4. Reason to prove that the profession of the mayn truth before layd down is of force to make a true Christian , is , that by it the man so professing doth differ from Iewes , Turks , Pagans , & Papists . He doth in deed , for he is so much worse then they , by his verball profession of the truth , taking Gods name in vayn , and dishonouring it farr more then the other . 1 Tim. 5. 8. Isa. 52. 5. Rom. 2. 24. And what matter is it from whom he differs , that differs not from , but is one of the men of the world , a lim of Sathan , and an habitation of his spirit ? Lastly , ●● fire it may be considered , whether you be not a partiall , and 〈◊〉 judge ▪ betwixt the Papists , and your selves . They for shutting ●● their works , at a third or fourth hand , with faith in the 〈…〉 f salvation , must be judged ●●●se matter , and their errour against the 〈◊〉 of faith in the Sonne of God , and destroying it , & against he truth of the gospel , bycause it is against the sacrifice of Christs Preisthood : and yet you , though you yoak Antichrist with Christ , and the Popes Canons with Christs Testament , in the spirituall government of the soules , and bodyes of his people , and so sin against the scepter of his kingdome , must be reputed true matter ; your errour no way against the nature of faith , or truth of the gospell ; as though true faith did not as well apprehend Christ a King , as a Prophet , in the cause of salvation , though not in the act of iustification : and as though the order which Christ hath left , in the Evangelists , Actes , and Epistles to Timothy , and Titus , for the gathering , and government of his Church , were not as well a part of the gospel , and so the obiect of faith as any other portion of it . Yea to conclude , I tell you Mr B. and not I but the holy Ghost ( and I pray you consider it well ) that a lewd cōversation and evill conscience is as damnable a sin ▪ and as directly against the nature of faith in the sonne of God , and the truth of the gospel , and doth as plainly destroy faith , and prejudice salvation , as any eyther Popish , or other haeresy in the world . Luk. 24. 47. 1 Cor. 5. 11. Gal. 5. 19. 20. 21. Ephe. 5. 5. 6. 1 Tim. 1. 19. & 5. 8. 1 Ioh. 1. 6. But graunt ( as you would have it ) that profession in word with an apparant denyall of the same in deed , made a true Christian , or true matter of the Church , and that the Apostles built the Lords house of such stones , ( which for me to graunt were both solly , and impiety , as it is in you to affirm it ) yet would it no way advantage you , nor iustify your Church . For the profession , by which the Apostles , and Apostolike Churches received mēbers , was voluntary , and personall , freely made by the particular persons which ioyned themselves vnto the Lord , as the scriptures by you quoted prove , as every one that readeth them , may see : but where was or is any such personall , and particular profession vsed or required of any men , or women , in the replanting of your Church after Popery ? A man may go out of these countryes wher I now live , as many do , and hyre a house in any parrish of the land ; ●e is by the right of his house , or f●rm , a member of the pa●rish Church , where he dwels , yea though he have been nousled vp all his life lōg in Popery , or Atheism , & though he were formerly neyther of any Church , or religion . Yea though he should professe that he did not look to be saved by Christ onely , and alone , but by his good meanings , and well doings : yet if he will come , & hear divine service he is matter , true as steel for your Church : yea be he of the Kings naturall subiectes , he shall , by order of law , be made true matter of the Church , whether he will or no. And what profession of faith in this very case of salvation , the body of your Church makes , or would make , if men freely spake their thoughts , a Minister of good note amongst your selves shall testify out of his own experience . The person is “ Mr Nichols , who in his Plea of the innocent , expresly affirms , that conferring with the particular persons in his parish , ( after he had preached some good space amongst them ) about the meanes of salvation , of 400 cōmunicants he scarce found one , but that thought , and professed , a man might be saved by his own w●ll doing , and tha● he trusted he did so love , that by Gods grace he should obteyn everlasting l●se , by serving God , and good prayers . Now how do these agree together ? Mr B : sayth that all professe salvation by Christ onely , and alone : Mr Nichols on the cōtrary affirms out of his own experience , that not one of 400 so thinks , and professes . And if he , and all the ministers in England should deny it , we out selves by our own experience know what the fayth , and perswasion of the multitude in most places is . Now for your further reasoning , that bycause a Bishop , or two , published this , and some other mayn truthes vnto the world , with the approbation of the Parliament , and Convocation house , and that some preachers here , & there do so teach , therefore all the land so professeth , ( where many thowsands do not so much as vnderstād it ) what can be imagined more vayn ? Can men professe the truth they know no● ? What is this , but the Papists implicit faith , when men beleiv , as the Church beleiveth , though they know not what it is ? yea and worse then it also , for as we see , and know infinite multitudes beleive , and vpon occasion professe the contrary . But most vayn of all is it to affirm , that bycause a few godly martyrs have sealed vp this , & the like truthes with their blood , that therefore they that murdered them , professe the same truth , & are true Christiās without any other change wrought in them for the most part , then by the Magistrates sword , and authority . You affirm by way of answer pag. 249. of your second book , that the Magistrates compulsion vnto goodnes is no hurt vnto it , neyther makes men vnholy , or lesse good , if they have goodnes in them . As it is not simply true you affirm , that the compulsion of men to the faith , doth not hurt it ; for if the causing the truth to be blasphemed be to hurt it , then the cōpelling of apparant wicked persōs to professe the same , hurts it , as it doth both them , and the Church whereof they are ; so if the body of the land in the beginning of the Queens reign , were good , and holy at all , the magistrates compulsion wrought it in men , & made them of persequuting Idolaters , true Christians : for other mean●● intervening , or cōming betwixt their professiō of the masse , & of the gospell , had they none , saving the Magistrates authority . But here I am by necessity , and in respect of the present matter in hand , drawn into Mr B. 2. book : and a great benefit were it to me , if there I might find him , ( though in both vnfound ) yet one , and the same . But a great trouble it is to walk with a drunken man , and to be bound to follow him in all his vaga●ies : so is it to deal with an adversary light headed , & dizzy with wrath , vanity , and errour , whom a man must follow in all his staggerings , and reelings to , and fro , and in all the forwards , and backwards that he makes , oft times going , and vngoing again the same by-pathes . There is no one thing wherevpon Mr B : labours more in his former book , and for which he brings more reasons , and scriptures , and those often repeated , then to prove the Church of Englād , or rather such particular Churches , as have the word preached in them , to be truely gathered after the suppressing of Popery , and by the order of the Apostolick Churches : both in respect of separation from Idolatours , and Antichristian Papists , pag. 108 ▪ as also by profession of the mayn truth , and sum of the Gospell , wherein they differed from Iewes , Turks , and Pagans , as no matter ; and also from Papists as false matter of the Church . pag 111. 112. 113. 116. And therefore having proved by a multitude of scriptures that the Apostolick Churches were gathered by free profession of fayth , he concludes thus of them , and of his own Church , † such as make this profession , are true matter , and so are wee : for we all professe this fayth &c. But now , as though he had eyther forgotten what he wrote before , or cared not how he crossed himselfe , so he might oppose vs , against whom he hath vowed such vtter emnity ▪ he suckes in his former breath , and eats the words he had formerly vttered , peremptorily affirming in his 2. book , that in the reformation of a Church after Popery , there is not required any such profession , nor yet the word of God to go before their reformation , but that the feare of the Magistrates sword is sufficient to recover them , and to setle the people in order to the worship of God. The ground vpon which he builds this his new , and crosse opinion , is , the practise of Asa , Ezechias , Iosias and Nehemiah , godly Kings , and Princes of Iudah , in the reformation of that Church , after her Apostacy , in the dayes of vngodly , & Idolatrous Kings : & therevpon , taking it for graunted , that the catholique visible Ch : of Rome ( as it is called ) now is , and that the national Church of England in Queen Maries dayes and before , when Popery reigned , was , in the same estate with Iudah in her apostacy , he concludes thence , that as the Magistrates then without any voluntary profession , did by force , bring the people of the Iewes back from Idolatry to the true service of God , so might King Edward , and Queen Elizabeth by force , bring back the people of England into covenant with God , to be his true Church , without any such profession of fayth , as in the first planting of Churches , is required . We will then consider of this poynt at large , as being both weighty in it self , and having many others depending vpon it . That Iudah was at the first , and so continued ( by vertue of the Lords Covenant with her forefathers , on his part faythfully remembred , and kept , though by her oft tymes broken ) the true Church of God , and † holy in the root , till she was broken of for vnbeleif , after the death , resurrection , and ascension of Christ , fully published , and confirmed by the Apostles , I graunt with him : but the same or the like things , of the Church of Rome or of England in the respects layd down , may I not acknowledg . That there was at Rome a true Church * beloved of God , called saynts by giving obedience vnto the fayth , is apparant : but that eyther the city , or Church of Rome , consisting of many cities , and countryes , was ever within the Lords covenant , and holy in the root , as Iudah was , may I neyther acknowledg , neyther can he possibly prove . So for England , I wil not deny , but there were at the first true Churches planted in it , by the preaching of the gospell , and obedience of fayth ; and these as the other Churches in every nation , though “ in the world , yet not of it , but chosen out of it , and hated by it : † men fearing God , and working righteousnes , and so being accepted of God , in what nation soever : * purchased with the blood of Christ , and so made his flock : “ saynts by calling , and sanctifyed in Christ Iesus , and calling vpon the name of the Lord Iesus Christ in every place : such were † the Churches in Iud●a , Galily , and Samaria ; * the Churches in Galatia ; “ the 7 Churches in Asia : and of such people , gathered into so many distinct assemblyes , ech entyre in her self having peculiar † Bishops or Elders set over her ▪ for her feeding , by doctrine , and government , did those particular Churches consist : they thus separated from the rest both Iewes , and Gentiles in every nation , whether more , or lesse , were that chosen generation , that royall Preisthood , that holy nation , and purchased people of the Lord. But that ever the whole nation , and all the Kings naturall subiects in it , should have been within the covenant of the Lord , & entituled by the word of the Lord , to the seals of the covenant , and all the other holy things depending vpon it , is a popular , and popish fantasy , as ever came into mans brayn : requyring a new-found land of Canaan , for a seat of this national Church , wherein no vncircumcised person may dwel ; and a new old testament , for the policy , and government of the same . And lastly it makes all one , them that Christ hath chosen out of the world , and the world ; them that fear God , & work righteousnes , and whom he accepteth in every nation , and the nation it self : the beloved of God at Rome , and the sanctifyed in Christ Iesus at Corinth , with the City of Rome , and of Corinth : then which what confusion can be greater ? But to admit that for truth , which you so take , namely that Rome in the sence , wherein we speak sometymes was the true Church of God , as Iudah : and more specially , that the English nation was , as the nation of the Iewes , and all , and every person in it ▪ high , and low , received into covenant with the Lord , to be his people , and that he might be their God : yet can it not be sayd of Rome , that she stil remayns the true Church of God , as Iudah did in her defection : but on the contrary , as she brake her covenant with God , advancing by degrees † that man of syn , the sonne of perdition , and adversary , Antichrist , till he was exalted into the throne of Christ : and that * mistery of godlynes , in , and according to which , that Church was planted at the first , degenerated into the mistery of iniquity : so did the Lord , for her adulteryes ( wherein she was incorrigible ) when they were come to the height , break the covenant on his part and gave her , as an harlot , a bill of divorce and put her away , and her daughter Engl. with her amongst the rest . Now for the more full clearing of this truth , I wil in the first place answer such reasons as Mr B. brings against it : and that done , lay down certayn arguments to disprove his Popish plea for that Romish Synagogue . Onely in the mean whyle I wish him to consider , that , if Mr ●m . deserve so severe a censure , as he layes vpon him , pag. 281. of this book , for some favourable affirmations touching some things , ●● persons in Rome , he himselfe is much more blame worthy , that both professeth and pleadeth her the true Church of Christ , and in the covenant of grace , and salvation : then which what greater and more notable plea can be made for her ? Nay if it be probable , that he , which pleads for Rome , as Mr Smith doth , will in tyme ▪ become ●n love with it , and sit downe a blind Papist , it is necessary , that he which thinks it a true Church , return vnto it , from which he hath wickedly schismed , as all men do that separate from the true Church of Christ , for any corruptions whatsoever . Here I do also entreat the prudent Reader to beare it in mynd that the constitution of England cannot be iustifyed , nor she proved to be rightly gathered , but with the defence of Rome , yea of † that great , and purpled whore to be the true spouse of the Lord Iesus . The Reasons by which Mr B. would prove Rome a true Church , are by him reckoned five in number ; we wil consider of them in order . The first is taken from the first planting of that Church in S. Pauls tyme , by vertue of which former calling , and constitution ( sayth he ) Rome still remaynes the Lords people , as Israel did in the wildernes , notwithstanding her idolatry . I do answer first , that Rome ( as we now consider of it ) was never the Lords called nor under his covenant , though a Church , or assembly in that city ( or it may be more then one ) of saynts , were , and secondly , that though she were , yet is the covenant broken through her fornications , and impenitency in them , both on her part , and the Lords visibly , and she devorced long a goe , and her daughters in , and with her . His secōd Reason is grounded vpon 2 Th. 2. 4. because Antichrist , that is , ( sayth he ) that head with his body sitteth , in the temple of God : which ( he further tels vs ) must be vnderstood visibly in respect of the truthes of God in doctrine , and ordinances of Christ held there , of which Gods people among them partake in his mercy , to their salvation , and others from tyme , to tyme , have mayntayned openly to the preservation of some fundamental poynts of the Apostolical constitution . Wherevpon he also concludes , that since the temple of God ( typing out the Church ) wherein he sitteth , hath a true constitution , Rome and that in respect of the tyme present , hath a true constitution , and is a true Church . He might also have added , and ever shal be a true Church , for Antichrist ever shal sit there til Christs second cōming . v. 8. Many men have written much about the notes & marks of the true Church , by which it is differenced , and discerned from all other assemblyes : and many others have sought for it , as Ioseph and Mary did for Christ , with heavy hearts Luk. 2. 48. that they might there rest vnder the shadow of the wings of the Almighty , enioying the promises of his presence , and power . But what needs all this a doe ? Mr B ▪ poynts vs out with the finger a mark of the true Church , most evident , and conspicuous , and like a beacon vpon an high hill , and that is , the exaltation of Antichrist . I had thought the Churches , and † people of God should have been known by his dwelling among them , & walking there , and by Christs presence * in the middest of them : but I now perceive Antichrists power , presence , and exaltation is a sure signe , by which the Churches of Christ must be discerned . If any therefore desire to plant his feet in the courts of the Lords house and there to abide for ever , let him be sure to chuse such a Church to ioyn to , as wherein Antichrist sitteth ; and so espeia●lly the Church of Rome , because he sits surest there ? And it is very like this is one reason , why Mr B. is so much perswaded of the Church of England , as of a true Church , because he thinks Antichrist sitts there in a measure : and it is not impossible , but this may have been some part of the cause , why in former tymes he was so loath to leav that Church , and to ioyn to vs , ( when he thought we had the truth ) because he perceived we wanted that prerogative of Antichrists seat , which England enioyes . But though this shew the absurdity of the opinion , yet doth it not answer the obiections . I do then answer the same in effect , which Mr B. makes his fourth Argumēt : namely , that , Popery , or Antichristianism begun not out of Christianity but in the Church of God : where it did also by steppes advance it selfe into the very throne of God , & of Christ : & there did in tyme , and by degrees so vniversally corrupt , and confound both persons and things , as that God could no longer be sayd to dwel there , by his visible presence , and promises , but Antichrist in his stead : having destroyed the temple of the Lord , the Church , and caryed captive his people , with the holy vessels into Babylon spirituall : as did the civil Babyloniās the material temple , carying captive with them into Babylon civil , the holy vessels , and other appurtenances thereof , together , with a remnant of the Lords people , of which more hereafter . Onely I doe in the mean whyle except against two particulars in this second Argument . The former is , that Antichrist sitting in the temple of God ( viz so remayning ) is that head , with his body . 2 Th. 2. Antichrist was not in the Apostles tyme , nor in a long tyme after , a perfit man , consisting of the head the Pope , and the body , the Hierarchy ecclesiastical , but was in the seed onely , or as an embrie in the wombe , not perfectly framed , much lesse visibly brought forth , least of all grown to that height , as to iustle with Christ for his throne , yea to dispossesse him of it , as now he doth , and hath done a long season . Secondly it is not truely affirmed , that because there are some fundamental truthes of God in doctrine , and truthes in ordinances of Christ ( as you Mr B. speak ) held there , that therefore Rome is the true Church . How should Antichrist and the Divil in him , so effectually deceive with the delusion of vanity , and errour , if he did not countenance the same with some truthes ? And do you not think it possible Mr B. that any malignant , and fal●e Churches , should vsurp some truthes and ordinances of Christ which apperteyn not vnto them ? If your argument be good , the Greek Churches , the Arians , Anabaptists , Vbiquitaries , yea and all the assemblyes of haeretiques and schismatiques in the world , are true Churches of Christ ; for they all reteyn many mayn truthes , and ordinances of Christ. The third Argument is , that as the children , or infants of the ten tribes in Ieroboās Apostacy were called the children of God , by circumcisiō the visible seale of Gods covenant , so may the litle ones in the Romish Church be called Christs , for that they have received true baptism . And so that Rome hath a true constitution by true baptism in the children , who are Christs thereby , as the children of the Israelites were the Lords by circumcision , til by education they be made Antichristian , and by that offered vp to Antichrist , as the Israelitish children became Molechs , by their fathers offering them to him . You do here Mr B. in the first place alter the state of the question in both the termes . The question is , whether the Church of Rome be the true vsible Church of Christ , or no. You for the Romish Church , put the l●tle ones in the Romish Church : and in stead of their being the visible Church , you tel vs , they may be called Christs . Whereas 1. those litle ones , or infants , are not the Church , but the least part of it : and secondly , they are not necessarily eyther the true visible Church , or of it , because they are Christs , ( ●● so they were ) in a respect : for God hath his in † Babylon , whic● are visible Citizens , of that visible City of fornication , ( though the Lords , in respect of election , and the beginnings of personal sanctification ) whom he therefore calls out of the cōm 〈…〉 ▪ of it , & the abo●●●ations therein , vnder a severe penalty . Secondly , wh●● you say , 〈…〉 the children in the Romish Church have a t●ue 〈…〉 by 〈…〉 are Christs , till by education they be made An t 〈…〉 , ●●d by it 〈◊〉 vp to Antichrist , you seem to make the Church of Rome to be , or to comprehend in it , two distinct , yea two 〈◊〉 visible Churches : a Christian Church of infants , before they be capable of education : and an Antichristian Church of those that are of rip● yeares . And yet further where you say , that i● ( for so your words are ) hath a t●●e constitu●s ●● by true baptism in their children , there it seems , you will have the parents to have one constitutiō , that is to be one Church , with their children , and that true , by their true baptism : and to the parents , which by their education , are Antichristian : must by the baptism of their children be made christian : and yet the children , by their parents , when they are capable of their education , be made antichristian & offred vp to Antichrist . The scriptures every where teach , that parents by their fayth , bring their children into the * covenant of the Church , and entitle them to the promises : but that children by their circumcision , or baptism , should constitute their parents in the Church , read ● not , but in this m●ns scripture . Yo● most manifest it is every where , that wicked parents by their 〈…〉 lity , or other sinns , depriving themselves of the Lords presence , and covenant , have enwrapped their children ●●th 〈…〉 and visibly : “ secret things ever reserved vnto God. So † C 〈…〉 the presence of the Lord caried his posterity with him : so ●i● Ismaell , and I●sa● theirs , the Ismaelites , and Edo●●es . And ●●th Lord dis●laym * the mother for a harlot , not reputing her his wife , he accounts the children no better then bastards , on whom he wil have no pity . And if the children of the Iewes be not † broken of with their parents , for their vnbelief , they are successively within the covenant , and of the true Church every one of them to this day . Neyther doth this at all crosse that which els where you obiect out of the Prophet , that * the soul that sinneth shall dy , & that the sonne shal not bear the iniquity of the father , &c. For first the Prophet there speaks of such a sonne as forsakes his fathers evil , & practiseth the contrary : Otherwise the Lord threatneth , that he “ wil visit the sinns of the fathers vpon the children : yet not so ; as the children are without fault , for infants new-born by Adams transgression , and their natural , and original corruption , are † children of wrath , and lyable to all Gods curses ; but the Lord takes occasion by the sinns of the parents to execute his iustice vpon the children , in whose punishments he also punisheth the parents themselves after a sort . The next thing I observe in this argument is , that you affirm the children of the Apostate Israelites to be the children of God by circumcision , and infants now to be Christs by baptism , which you say also constitutes the Church : against which Popish , and anabaptistical , errour , I do iustly except . Popish I call it , for that the papists imagine that by baptism their children are made Christian soules , and in signe of that , they have the font ever standing at the Church dore : so do the Anabaptists make baptism the form of the Church , which you call the constitution , as indeed the form of a thing constituteth it , and giveth being vnto it . Wherof if I my self were perswaded , I could not defend the baptism received eyther in Rome , or England , but I must withall iustify both the one , & the other for the true Church of Christ. But against this vnsound opinion both theirs , and yours , I will lay down certayn arguments playnly proving the contrary . And first , it is the covenant of God , which makes the Church as you your selfe both affirm , & prove , pag. 277. of your 2 ▪ book , of which covenant you also graunt in this place baptism to be the visible seal , as was also * circumcision in those tymes ; and therefore it is not the covenant it selfe , but is after it in the order both of nature , and tyme. Secondly , the Lord had his Church before eyther circumcision or baptism were appoynted , which is also one , and the same in essence from the beginning to the end of the world ; which it couldnot be , if eyther circumcision , or baptism , were parts constitutive , or essentiall of it . Thirdly , † the Lord made his covenant ( and so admitted them into the Church ) w●●h Abraham , and his seed , to be his and their God , in their ages and generations : so that he children of Abraham , and of the Iewes , were not without the Lord covenant , and him to be their God , til the tyme of their circumcision , which was the eighth day ; but were born , yea begot in the covenant , and an holy seed : and therfore the manchilde , not circumcised the eight day , is sayd to have broken the Lords covenant , wherof circumcision was asigne . To this also add , that the Lord did admit into 〈◊〉 with himself ( accepting them to be his people ) all , and every one of 〈◊〉 Israelites in the wildernes , where notwithstanding all of them in comparison , were vncircumcised . Ios. 5. 2. 3. 4. 5. Fourthly if baptism were the constitution of the Church , as Mr B. speaks , then were all heretiques , and schismatiques baptised with water , into the name of the Father , Son , and H. Ghost , true christians , and their assemblyes , true Churches of Christ : so had the ● S●●ce●●tes been a true Church by circumcision , and so of the Is●●●elites or Agarians , which have retayned circumcision to this day : the same may be sayd of the E●●●ites , and Edomites , which were notwithstanding as far from being true Churches , as Mr B. is from the truth of God , in writing , a● he doth . A fourth consideration is to be had of an affirmation by you peremptorily and absolutely made , ( as though it were without all contradiction , or limitation ) in the third argument : and that is , that the baptism in the Romish Church is true baptism . Touching which I do commend vnto the godly reader this distinction . Baptism is to be considred of vs in a twofold respect : first nakedly , and ●● the essential causes ; the matter , water ; and the form , the washing with water into the name of the Father , and of the Son , and of the H. Ghost , and in this respect , I confesse true baptism both in England and Rome . Secondly , it is to be considered of vs , 〈…〉 , as they speak , & clothed with such appurtenances , as wherewith the Lord hath appoynted it to be administred : as for example , a lawfull person by whom , a right subiect vpon which , a true communion wherein , it is to be ministred , & dispensed ; in which regards , neyther I can approve it , nor Mr B. manifest it to be true , eyther in Rome , or England . When † the house of the Lord at Ierusalem was destroyed by the C●aldees , and the vessels therof , together with the people , caryed into Babylon , they remayned still , both in nature , and right , the vessels of the Lords house : though in respect of their vse , or rather abuse ▪ they became * Belshazzars , qua●fing bowles . So is it in the destruction of the spirituall house of the Lord , the Church , by the spirituall Babylonians , and in the vsurpation , and abuse of the holy vessels , and in special of this holy vessel of baptism . Yet is there in this poynt a further consideration to be had of vs , vnto which both the scriptures , and our own experience do lead vs : namely that , as the Lord hath his people in Babylon , his , I mean , both in respect of election , and of personal sanctification : so hath he for their sakes there preserved ( notwithstanding all the apostacy , and confusion , which is found in it ) sundry his holy truthes , and ordinances , amongst which baptism is one . But as this his people , being commingled with the Babylonians in one visible communion , cannot be called the true visible Church of God ; so neyther can these ordinances , in the administration of them , be called the true visible ordinances of Christ , and of his Church : but as the Lords “ people are commaunded to goe out of her , and to † separate themselves , and so to build the Lords house a new in Ierusalem , or rather themselves , into a new * spiritual house for him to dwel in ; so are they to bring with them out of Babylon these ordinances , and in particular this ordinance of baptism , and to enioy the same ( being sanctifyed ) in the right vse , and order . All which was livelily shadowed out in the materiall temple , and ordinances as appeareth Ezra 1. 7. 8. 9. 10. 11. and 5. 13. 14. 15. And this also may serv for answer to that you bring in your second reason for the iustification of Rome in respect of the truthes of doctrine , and ordinances there . In your fourth argument there is litle but the answer ( of which I formerly spake ) vnto the second ; to wit that antichristianism begun in Christianity , which is true , as sowernes begins in wine , til by degrees it turn it into vineger : and as other haeresies begun in the Eastern Churches , which have notwithstanding long since eaten out the hearts of them , that they cannot , nor could not of long tyme be called the true Churches of Christ. True also is it , which you say that antichristianism doth not wholy disanul christianity : for if it did , it were not possible it should deceive so effectually as it doth . How should the Divil be beleeved in so many lyes , if he should not in some things speak the truth ? But where you further adde , that Poperie is nothing , but idolatrous , and he●itic●l corruptions vpon the profession of Christian fayth , covering it with the same , as Iobs body was with sores , and in the more large application of that Simile , pag. 245. do affirm that as he , though covered over with botches , and sores , so a● he could scarce be known by his freinds , was Iob stil vnder the sores , and the very same essentially , that he was before , so ●s the Church , and christianity in Popery , ●hough covered with the antichristian corruptions , which Sathan hath brought over them , in so saying , you are like your selfe , onely constant in inconstancy , and errour . And tell me I pray you Mr B. is the Popes vniversal supremacy , and headship over all Churches , by which also he claymeth power of both the swords , onely a s●ab vpon the skin of the true ministery , which Christ hath left in the Church , without preiudicing the essence or nature of it ? Is the sacrifice of the masse onely , a soar brought vpon the Lords supper , vnder which notwithstāding it lyes the very same in nature , and substance , which was by Christ ordeyned ? Is prayer vnto saynts onely a corruption come vpon true prayer , but no more against the life of it , then Iobs vlcers were against his life , or doth it not destroy the very soule , and life of prayer ? Is adoration of saynts , service in an vnknown tongue , with all other the abhominations in the masse-book , but as a scurf come over that true worship of God wherwith he wil be worshipped ? Iohn . 4. 23. 24. vnder which the very same true worship lyeth ( as Iob did vnder his soares ) which God hath cōmaunded , & that without any more daunger of losse of life , then Iob was in by his outsyde skabs ? Lastly , is the opinion of iustification by works , onely a botch , and byle vpon true fayth , but not against the nature of it ▪ nor destroying the essence of it ? Your errour is sufficiently convinced in the recital and opening of it , in these particulars : your inconstancy , and contradiction is most notorious in the last of them , compared with that you wryte , pag. 113. of your former book ; namely , that the ioyning of works in the cause of salvation , which the Papists do , is against the true nature of fayth in the son of God , and destroyeth it . That which you call your fifth reason hath no countenance of a reason in it , but is meerly a conclusion inferred by you vpon your 4 former reasons , to prove Rome , in respect of the tyme pr●●ent , a true Church : and the sum of it is ▪ that the Churches now coming out of Babylon , do not requyre any n●w plantation , but onely a reformation , as did Iudith in the tyme of Hezechiah , after the apostacy of Idolatrous Ahaz , and of the people w●●h him . But since the reasons wherwith you would vnderprop this your inference , are taken away , it must needs ●●ll to the ground . Neyther will your Babel stand any whit the stronglyer for the † daubing you make with this , and the like vntempered morter , that it hath not made a nullity of religion : that it hath not lost the Apostolical constitution totally : that it holds truthes sufficient to iudg men christian by , the corruptions being taken away . For first , what matters it , though Rome have not made a nullity , if it have made a falsity of religion , by most grosse vntruthes , haeresyes , and Idolatryes , making voyd the commaundements of God by mens traditions : and teaching for doctrines , mens precepts ? And secōdly what though the cōstitutiō be not totally lost ? If an house , or material building be not totally demolished , but there stil remayn some few postes , or studdes not yet puld down , or some few stones of the foundation vndigged vp , is it therfore truely an house , and so to be called ? Lastly doth it follow , that , because Papists might be iudged true christians for the truthes they hold , their corruptions being taken away , they are therefore such with their corruptions : so the vilest haeretique , Idolater , or other miscreant in the world , take away his haeresy , Idolatry , and mischeif , may be iudged a christian : yea the Divil himself , take but away his corruptions , is a glorious Angel of light . Having thus answered the reasons brought by Mr B. to prove Rome a true Church , and the like , I will in the next place lay down such arguments from the scriptures , as manifest the contrary , and those also taken out of his own writings , for the further discovering of his vnsound , and deceitful dealing with men , in the Lords matters . And first in his cathechism printed 1602. pag. 1● . he demaunds this question . ●● the Church of Rome a true Church of Christ ? whervnto he answereth . No ; but of Antichrist the Pope the cheif teacher of the doctrine of Divils . And in the same place to prove that religion a false religion , he brings 7. general reasons very weighty , all , and every one of them , as he that reads the place , shal finde . Secondly , in his seperatists s●hism , he makes as Iewes , Turks , and Pagans , no matter , so Papists false matter of the Church , and contrary to true matter , in that they ioyn with Christ , their works in the cause of salvation . pag. 111. 112. 113 , 116. Thirdly , he affirms in his last book pag. 277. that the covenant betwixt God , and the people is the form of the Church ; and proves , that this covenanting mutually doth give a being vnto a people , to be Gods people Deut. 29. 12. 13. To this let that be added , which he wrytes pag. 281. of the same book , namely that the Papists have not the same word , and fundamental poynts of the covenant , with them in England . And in particular , that they make a covenant with Angels , and Saynts , and so hold not the person in the covenant : that they make another word even mens traditions , the declaration of the covenant , and so change the evidence : that they make moe s●craments , and so adde counterfeyt seals , turning the Lords supper into a Popish sacrifice , and so do tear off the Lords seal , and make it nothing worth : and these three , namely the person , the wryting , and the seals he makes the foundamental poyn●s of the covenant , as wherein the foundation therof doth stand . And who now seeth not , how this man is first constrayned to plead for Rome as a true Church , to defend the Church of England , and afterwards being ashamed of that plea , to condemn it as a false Church , corrupt , and counterfyet in the very foundation , and form , which gives the being , as he himself speaks . Fourthly , he graunts in these his * playn endeavours , that Rome is Babylon , and that the H. Ghost so calls it , and applyes rightly the places literally spoken of the type the heathe●ish Babylon ; spiritually to the thing signifyed , the Antichristian Babylon , the Romish Synagogue . And the same thing , the wrytings of the godly learned , both at home , and abroad do confirm . No● what can be more playn ? Is it possible that Rome should be both Babylon , & Ierusalem ? both the Synagogue of Antichrist , and the Church of Christ ? Can that Catholick visible body , the Church of Rome , ( as it is called ) vnder that visible head , Antichrist the Pope , be the true visible body of Christ , vnder him the head ? The Apostle wryting vnto the Galatians , calles the Church of the new ●estamēt † Ierusalem , which is above , & the mother of the ●aythfull : and Iohn in the book of * the Revel●tion , opposeth vnto Babylon spiritual , the ●●w Ierusalem cōming down from God out of h●●ven : and the tabe●n●●le of God , where he dwelleth with men , making th●m his people , and himself 〈…〉 heir God. Now as the people of God in old tyme , were called out of “ Babylon civile , the place of their bodily bondage ; and were to come † to Ierusalem , and there to build ● new the Lords temple , or tabernacle , leaving Babylon to that destruction , which the Lord by his servants , the Prophets , had d●nounced against it : so are * the people of God , now to g●●e out of Babylon spiri●●●● , to Ierusalem , and to build vp themselves as lively stones into a s 〈…〉 , or temple for the Lord to d●vel in ▪ leaving Babylon to that d●●truction and desolation ( ●ea furthering the same ) to which she is devoted by the Lord. B●● if the people of God should receive Mr B. doctrine , they were not to come out of Babylon , nor to endeavour her destruction , but to tarry in her still , labouring for her reformation , and the reparation of her decayed places : neyther were they to build my new spiritual temple , or to constitute any new Church from Rome present , ( for of such a new constitution we speak ) but there to abyd● , reproving her corruptions , and endeavouring the reformation of them . It is therfore vntrue which you ●●y Mr B. “ that ▪ the Romish Church must be dealt with onely , as the Church of God was in Iud●th : it must be dealt with as was Babylon , e●en abandoned and forsaken by the Lords people , vpon p●●ill of the curses , and plagues due vnto it , and denounced against it , and against all that abyde in it . To this which Mr B. in this place so greatly contends for , namely tha● Rome is the true Church of Christ though under corruptions , as Iob was a true man vnder his sores , let that be added which he wryteth els where in this book that † corruptions are made matter of reproof , but no cause of separation from the Church : and further that * they that separate from a true Church , the body , cut of themselves from Christ , the head : and to these two a third graunt , and profession he makes , as that their “ profession , and lawes in England separate a protestant , from a Papist : that the Church of England is separated by profession ▪ lawes , and publique m●etings from Papists : that † the very societyes of Papists are to be left as no people of God , and his writings will appeare to all men like a beggars cloak patched together of old , and new peices , scraped vp here and there , scarce two of the same eyther colour , or thread . Let me a little stich his patches together , and set them in some order . They that separate from the true Church , cut of themselves from Christ. Mr B. pag 110. 111. But the Church of England in separating from Rome , is separated frō the true Ch : Mr B. pag. 114. 129. 14● . with 131. 132. 133. Therefore by Mr B. both graunt and proof the Church of England is separated from Christ. And is this your piety , and thankfulnes Mr B. towards your mother , for want of which you cast so many bitter curses vpon the separatists ? you are so far caryed in honouring your grandmother Rome , as a true Church , that you clean forgot your mother England , and condemn her for a schismatical Synagogue . Yea well were it , or at the least more tolerable in you , if you thus dealt onely with your selfe , and your owne , but this vile iniury which you here offer , extends it selfe far , and nere , even to Luther , Zuinglius , and the other godly guides of separation , and to all the reformed Churches separated from the Church of Rome , yea to the martyrs in King Henryes , and Queen Maryes dayes , and to all other the like godly mynded , through the whole world , whom you condemn as wicked schismatiques and separated from Christ the head , in separating themselves from his body , your true Church of Rome . Lastly the Apostle Paul wryting to the Church of Rome in her first , and best estate , praemonisheth her to stand fast in the fayth received , least he , which had * not spared the natural branches , the Iewish Church , but broken them of for vnbel●if , should not spare the wild branches . whereof she consisted . How then Mr B. can you deny , that Rome is , and hath been long , broken of , which so long hath ●●yned works in the cause of salvation , which you your selfe affirm to be against the true nature of fayth , in the ●o●● of God , and that which destroyeth ●● ? And that all may take knowledge , how the Lord dealeth with his Churches vnder the new testament , and may learn both to fear in themselves , and how to iudge of the present state of Rome , let it be observed , what Christ Iesus by his servant Iohn wryteth vnto the Churches in Asia , especially † to the Church of Ep●esu● : which he having blamed for leaving her first love , exhorts to repentance and to the doing of her first workes , threatning withall , that otherwise he will come against her shortly , and remove her candlestick out of the place , except she amend . The same thing in effect he denounceth against the Churches of Perga●us , and Thya●yra , and so against the rest , vpon the like occasions . And if the Lord dealt so severely with the Church of Ephesus , notwithstanding the many excellent things , which were found in her , and so acknowledged by the Lord himselfe , v. 2. 3. as to remove her candlestick . 1. to dis-church her , as ch . 1. 20. for leaving her first love , and that speedily , except she repented , how can it be that the golden candlestick should stil stand in Rome , and shee remayn the Church of Christ , which so many hundred yeares since , hath left not onely her first love , but her first fayth also ? chaunging her fayth into haere●y , and Idolatry , and her love into most bloody , & cruel persequutions against all that have endeavoured her repentance , and so hath continued a long space , and doth continue at this day . None but professed Romanists will plead , any Charter for Rome above other Churches . These things thus opened , and these two capital errours confuted , the former Iewish , namely , that England now is , as Iudah was : and that as then , all the Iewes in that nation , so now all the English men in the Kings dominions should constitute a national Church : the latter Popish , viz. that the Romish Church is the true visible body , or Church of Christ ; it is evident , both that the Evangelical Churches must be new planted , or constituted , by profession of fayth , as the temple , was new built , after the captivitie of Babylon ; as also that not Iosiahs sword , that is the coactive lawes of men , but Pauls word , even the preaching or publishing of the gospel , is the proper means , which the Lord hath sanctifyed for that purpose , though , I doubt not , but there both hath been , and is , great vse of the Magist●●●●● authority for the furtherance of the gospel that way . When the Lord Iesus purposed to advance the scepter of his king ●●me , he sent out his Apostles , not furnished with sword , and ●p●●● , no● yet backed with humayn lawes , or authority , but with ch●●ge , and commission , to publish , and declare his holy comm●●nd●ments , and the things which he had taught them , and th●reby to 〈◊〉 Disciples , or gayn subiects vnto his kingdom ▪ Math. 2● . 19. 2● . which they also practised , admitting , and initia●ing m●n into ●●● Church vpon their voluntary submission vnto , and 〈◊〉 of the ●ayth of Christ. N●●●● vnto ●●● be added a second consideration , namely , where , and , to ●●● a the Apostles were first to preach and to 〈◊〉 th● 〈◊〉 commission received from Christ , it wil both g●ve ligh● to the ●o●nt in hand and discover the vanity of a distinct●●n in Mr B. ● book , to which he trusteth much , and therefore ●●th o●t , ●●r the gathering , and establishing of Churches after the P 〈…〉 , by fy●● , and sword , without any further respect , then the magistrates authority ▪ the summe whereof , as also of that he infe●reth upon it , is , that to a Church in the f●●●t 〈◊〉 , that i● , as ●● e●pound● himselfe , gathered of in●i●els , and of such a people ●●●re no Church , 〈…〉 , there is required preaching , and 〈◊〉 going b●fore with the word , and profession of the name of Christ : but for a people that are not infidels , but Christians ( h●● corrupt soever ) a●● a Church , ●● su●h preachi●● on the one side , n●● 〈◊〉 of ●●yth , on the other , is r●q●ired : 〈…〉 compel with the feare of the sw●●● , the Magistrate , authority is sufficient in such a case ▪ Let the Reader behold this bold mans grosse ignorance , and contradi●tions , and if he wil not open his eyes to see them ▪ he m●y feel them with his hand , so palpable are they . I wil lay them down in these particulars . ●●●st he affirmeth , pag. 176 ▪ that , the Lord ta●●s a pe●ple to be 〈…〉 and that comm●●●dements , are for his people to ●●●●●●●m , and n●t to make them 〈…〉 ma●s comma●ndeme●t mak●s not a servent , but decl●●es such a one to be ●is ●●●vant already : and so he gives God not more power to commaund the wicked , and vnbeleevers , then a man hath to commaund another mans servant : and yet here he tells vs , that before a people can become a Church , Paul must goe with the word : and expresly , pag. 277. that the Lord , to make m●n his people , gives t●em his word , and quo●es , Math. 28. 19. to prove it . Secondly by this his distinction , and his inferences vpon it , he makes all the Iewes , to whom Iohn Baptist , Christ , and the Apostles preached , and which were baptised by them , or any of them , to have been Infidels before , and n● Church , no Christian● . And ●● he affirms directly , pag. 262. ( though I suppose he consider●t not ) where , in answer to a proposition of Mr Aynsworthes , that the Churches of Christ were established of saynts onely , & men visibly 〈◊〉 , confirmed amongst other scriptures , by Math. 3. 6. he p●●emptorily avouches , and so builds vpon it , that that , p●oposition , & scripture , amongst the rest , is to be vnderstood of a people , which is no Church & no Christians : & so the Church of the Iewes at that tyme , must be no Church , and they no Christians with this man , ( for of them that scripture speaks ) whatsoever Peter and Paul say to the contrary . Thirdly , since the Apostles being sent by Christ to teach , and make Disciples , were to begin their ministration amongst the Iewes in * Ierusalem , Iudea , and else where ; ( which is the consideration , I formerly mentioned ) and so by the publishing of the gospel of fayth , on their part , and by the profession of fayth , and confession of sinns on the peoples part , to gather , and establish particular Churches : and that the Church of the Iewes was at that tyme the Church of God , in respect of which , the establishing of these particular Churches was no new plantation , but a continuation of their former ingra●●ing in the same root , wherein they formerly were planted , not differing from it essentially , but being onely reformed , perfited , and otherwise ordered then before : it appeareth most vntrue , which Mr B. affirm●th , that the preaching of the gospel is onely necessarily required for the planting of Churches of such people , as were formerly infidels and no people of God. Fourthly , and lastly , even that which he most freely graunts in one pag. namely , that at the first , the word must be preached , and by that means men brought to a voluntary 〈◊〉 without compulsion , that he vtterly reverses , and denyes in the very next * pag where pleading the proclamation of Hezechiah , and compulsion of Iosiah , he annexeth to the same purpose as cunningly , as his wit wil serve , an insinuation , that Mordecai ( for feare of whom , he sayth , many of the heathen ( for such the people were ) became Iewes ) procured of the King proclamations , and other statutes , for the compelling of his subiects to the Iewish religion : wherein he both perver●s the words , as the reader may see , and the meaning also of th● scripture ▪ which is , that the heathen observing the myghty and mervelous hand of God for his people , and against his and their enemyes , many of them became Iewes , and † separated themselves vnto them , from the 〈◊〉 of the heathen of the land , to seek the Lord God of Israel : as also in alleadging to the same purpose , Luke 14. 23. as he doth in another place : borrowing ( as it seems ) the corrupt exposition of that scripture from the Ministers whom ●e drawes in with him , in his * former book : of which more in due place . But that I may not be caryed too far in this my digression , I do first deny , that the reformation by Queen Elizabeth ( though great in it selfe and she for it , of blessed memory ) did in any measure equalize the reformation made by Hezechiah , Iosiah , and N●he●yah , in whom you most insist Mr Bernard . For whereas all reformation respects eyther persons or things , that which was wrought by these godly Kings , and governours , receives testimony from the H. Ghost himselfe , to have been most full , and intyre , both wayes . And to let passe , for brevityes sake , the things themselves , with referring the reader to these and the like “ scriptures , which handle that part , I wil insist a litle vpon the persons , about whom the question here is , between Mr B. and me , in whom the other parte of reformation is to be considered ; which wil better appear , if we compare together officers with officers , and people with people . And first it is evident in the scriptures , that those Kings , & Princes of Iudah , did not apoint any other Preists , eyther for the purging of the temple , or for any other Preistly work , whither of reformation , or administration , then the Levi●es , whom the Lord had chosen to stand before him , to serve him , and to be his Mini●●ers , and to ●●●●●ncense , 2 Chr. 29. 4. 5. 11. And therfore when some that pretended they were Levites , could not † by searching ▪ find the writing of their genealogy , they wer● put from the Preisthood : & for the Preists of the high places which had gone astray after Idoles in the tyme of Apostacy , & served thē , & caused the people to fal into iniquity , if they were not Levites , and called of God , but of Ieroboams institution , they themselves were * sacri●iced vpon the altars , with which they had so provoked the Lord : and though they were Levites , and the anoynted of the Lord , and so had their lives spared vpon their repentance , yet were they deposed from their holy ministration , and “ came not near vnto the Lord any more , ●er vnto any of his holy things in the most holy place , but were to bear t●●●r shame , and their abhomm●tions , which they had wrought . But what answerable vnto this can be brought forth in the reformation of the English Iudah ? wherein the Preists of as ill an institution , or worse , then Ieroboams , even the institution of Antichrist , were continued in the most solemn administrations : yea both those which had been ordeyned , and made in Queen Maryes dayes , for their breaden God , and those which had fal● back from that profession of the truth they made in King Edwards dayes , and caused the people to fal into iniquitie : ( which makes the mischeif much the greater ) both they of the one kynde & of the other , being for the most part , ignorant , prophane , and popishly affected : as though eyther the sacrifice of the masse had been no Idol , or that the Lord had layd no shame , or other burthen vpon such Idolatrous Apostates , and seducers . Now for the people ( entreating the reader to bear in mynd what I have formerly manifested , as that neyther the whole English nation ever was the Lords true visible Church , as the Iewish nation was , nor if it were at the first could so remayn in the deep Apostacy of Antichrist ) I do adde , that no man can by the word of God affirme the same things in any measure of the people of England in the beginning eyther of King Edwards or Queen Elizabeths reign , which the scriptures d● of the people of the Iewes in the tyme of Hezechiah , Iosiah , Nehemiah , and other the like godly instruments of reformation . First for Hezechiahs tyme , it appeareth that after † the Levites ●ad sanctifyed themselves , and the house of the Lord , they offred after al solemn manner ▪ ●s●●n offering for the kingdome , and for the sanctuary , and for Iudah : the King ▪ and the congregation laying their hands vpon the sacrific●s , thereby confessing that they were guilty of death , and deriving their guilt vpon the goats in figure , but vpon Christ in truth , whom they figured : and afterwards when the congregation was to ●●●●g sacrifices , and every one that was willing in hart , burnt offerings , it is sayd the burnt offerings ●●re many , yea so many , as the Preists were not able to s●●● them all : and that all the people reioyced , that God had made the people 〈◊〉 . Adde vnto this that which is written chap. 30. v. 11. 12. that d●●●rs of Ash●● . M●nasseth , and Z●bulun did submit themselves vnto the counsel of Hezechiah , and that willingly , ( for he had no authority over them at all ) and came to Ierusalem , of whom the Lord also testifieth that they † prepared their whole heart to seek the Lord God , &c. and for Iudah ▪ that the hand of God was with them , ●● that he gave them one hart to do the commaundment of the King , and of the rulers , according to the word of the Lord : and lastly that the whole assembly kept the passeover with ioy , and that * all the congregation both straungers , and those that dwelt in Iudah reioyced with the Preists and Levites , who also blessing them , had their voyce heard in heaven , and their prayer in the Lords holy habitation . And for Iosiahs tyme , it is written , that , he , the Preists and all the people from the greatest to the s●●lest went vp into the house of the Lord , & that he read in their eares all the words of the book of the covenant , and that he stood by his piller , and made a covenant before the Lord , to walk after the Lord , and to keep his commaundments and his testimonies , and his statutes , with all his heart &c. & caused , or appoynted ( for the word signifieth no more ) all that were found in Ierusalem and Beniamin to stand vnto it : and that the inhabitants of Ierusalem did according to the covenant of God , the God of their fathers . Thirdly for the estate of the people in Nehemiahs tyme , with whom also I ioyn Ezra in the work of reformation , first , it appeareth , that none were constrayned to return to Ierusalem for the building of the Lords house ; but † such amongst the people , as would , and with whom their God was ▪ were by the proclamation of Cyrus to return : and secondly that * Ezra and such as went with him did , before their jorney , humble themselues by fasting before the Lord , for direction : and that , when they were come to Ierusalem , there was much weeping and wayling by him for the sinns of the people ( especially for that great trespasse they had committed , in taking strange wives of the people of the land ) together with great manifestation , and practise of repentance , by all the congregation : and afterwards in the book of † Nehemiah , when all the people were assembled together in the ●●ry street , the same Ezra , and the Levites with him , read , and expounded the law ●● to them , to the great humbling of all the people at the first , and afterwards to the great reioycing of them all , when they vnderstood the words , which were taught them : and thus they practised every day , even from the first day vnto the last , all the seven dayes , whylst the f●●st 〈◊〉 : and in the last place , and for the shutting up of all , confessing their sin●s , and the iniquities of their fathers , with fasting , sackcloath , and earth vpon them , they made a sure covenant , and w●●●●e it , sealed it , and swore vnto it , the Princes , Levites , Preists , and people all that were separated from the people of the ●●●d ▪ vnto the law of God , their wives , sonnes , and daughters , all that could vnderstand , the cheaf for the rest , that they would walkin Gods law which was given by Moses the servant of God , to observe and d●e all the commaundements of God , and his iudgments , and statutes . Vnto these former scriptures I wil annex one other of the same nature with them , and respecting the case of reformation . It is recorded therefore of * Alia a godly King of Iudah having in the beginning of his reign , abolished idolatry , ●● the monuments of it , and commaunded Iudah to se●k the Lord God of their fathers , &c. that afterwards vpō the exhortation of the Prophets Azariah , & Obed , he not onely went on with that work , but * assēbled together all Iudah , & Beniamin & 〈…〉 which had 〈…〉 out of Israel , whē they saw the Lord his God was with him ▪ & that they made a covenant to seek the L. God of their fathers , with all their hart & with all 〈…〉 & that whosoever would not seek the L. God of 〈…〉 , whether he were ●●●al or great , man or woman : & the same covenāt with the Lord being cōfirmed by an oth , it is sayd , that all Iudah reioyced at the 〈…〉 & the reason is added , for they had sworn vnto the Lord with ●●● their 〈…〉 , and fought him with a whole desire , & he was found of them . The Lord ▪ as he had chosen this whole kingdome to be his people , and raysed vp this ▪ and the like notable instruments of reformation amongst them , so did he vpon this and the like occasions work a most wonderful , and extraordinarie work vpon them , bowing their harts vniversally to the love of his word , for the present , and to the receiving of the same with ioy , together with all readines vnto the obedience of his commaundements : the like vnto which never was , nor shal be seen , to the end of the world in a whole kingdome except the Lord do again chuse one nation from all other nations to be his people , as then he did . And I am verily perswaded that Mr B. ( how bold soever he be in his affirmations ) will not say the like of all England , eyther in the beginning , or end of King Edwards , or Queen Elizabeths reign , which the scriptures themselves here , and els where , do testify , of all Iudah : whither we respect the disposition of the people whose hearts vniversally the Lord on his part did thus affect ; or the solemn covenant , which they on theirs , did contract , or rather renue with him . And here I do further also infer , since all Iudah reioyced at the oath of the covenant , and swore vnto the Lord with all their heart , and sought him with a whole desire : 2 Chr. 15. 13. and that the hand of God was in Iudah , so that he gave them one heart to do the commaundement of the King , and of the rulars according to the word of the Lord : Ch. 30. 12. and so at other tymes , that it is most vntruely affirmed by Mr B. how oft soever he repeat it , that the reformation of Iudah was not voluntary , but of compulsion , and of fear . True it is , that the Kings of Iudah made compulsive lawes for the reformation of the people , or rather for their continuance in that reformation , to which they had voluntarily submitted ; but as Mr B. ignorance is intollerable in that his seditious errour , tending indeed to the disturbance and subversion of all states civil , and ecclesiastical , that † voluntarinesse is taken away by being vnder any government : that to be subiect , and ruled is an estate far from fredome : and that Christians loose therby christian liberty : so should he here have observed a difference betwixt compulsion active , and passive , as they speak : or more playnly thus , that it is one thing for Kings , or men in authority , to require of their subiects the performance of necessary duties or the forbearance of the contrary , vpon such , and such penaltyes , and another thing for their subiects to obey them herein , for fear , and involuntarily . Many of the Kings lawes do require loyalty of all his subiects towards his maiesty , and do forbid vpon payn of death al treasons , & rebellions : now wil any man hereupō be so vnadvised , as to affirm , that therfore all the Kings subjects do forbear treasons and rebellions , through compulsion , and fear , and vnwillingly ? That godly magistrates are by compulsion to represse publique , & notable idolatry , as also to provide that the truth of God in his ordinance , be taught , and published in their dominions , I make no doubt ; it may be also , it is not vnlawfull for them by some penalty , or other , to provoke their subjects vniversally vnto hearing for their instruction , and conversion ; yea to graunt they may inflict the same vpon them , if after due teaching , they offer not themselves vnto the Church ; but that any King now vpon earth is by the word of God , to draw all the people of his nation into covenant with the Lord , ( how much lesse before they be cōveniently taught ) and to confirm the same by oath , and to inflict death vpon all that refuse it , or remayn wicked ▪ and vnrepentant , as the Kings of Iudah were to do by the people of that nation , can never be proved by Mr B. or any other man , how oft soever they bring in their practises for presidents . And if the Kings of Engl. should hold it their duty , as the Kings of Israel held it theirs , to “ destroy all the wicked of the land , and to * slay all that would not seek the Lord God of Israel with all their hart , and with all their soule , whether great , or small , man or woman , & should practise accordingly , they would be left barer of subjects , then I hope they shal be . To these considerations let this be added , that when David the most famous King of Israel had † subdued the nations round about him , and made them tributaries , and reigned over them , he did not force them into the Church by compulsive lawes , nor take any such violēt courses , that we read of . Neyther can you shift of the matter , Mr B. by alleadging that these nations were heathens , and infidels , and such as made no profession of religion , nor were circumcised : for amongst the rest over whom David ruled , the * Edomites are named , which were the posterity of holy Abraham , as well as the Israelites , comming of Esau , as they of Iaakob : who did also ( besides many mayn truthes ) reteyn circumcision , and that true also , as well as the Papists reteyn true baptism ; and by which they might as truely be deemed the Lords people , though in apostasie , as the Papists by the other . To end this argument of violence in religion , to which it is very vnnaturall ; neyther Hezechiah , nor Iosiah , nor any other King , eyther of Iudah or England had , or hath power from God to compel an apparant prophane person ( so remayning ) eyther to joyn vnto , or continue in the Church , and the Church so to receive , & continue him . The Kings of Iudah as I haue shewed , were to destroy , and put to death all such wicked ones , and so to weed them out of the Church , by the sword , according to the dispensation of those tymes , to what end then doth Mr B. bring in them , & their authority , eyther for the planting , or watering of such persons in the Church , for which purpose notwithstanding he produceth them . So for other Kings , though they be not to destroy all the wicked in their land , or nation , as not being to gather a nationall Church , so are they to vse their authority for the preserving pure of the Church , & to see that wicked & ●lagitious persons be neither taken into , nor kept in the Ch : to the dishonour of God , & profanation of his ordinances . You speak much of the reformation of your Church after Popery . There was indeed a great reformation of things in your Church , but very little , of the Church , to speak truely , and properly . The people , as I haue sayd , are the Church : and to make a reformed Church , there must be first a reformed people : and so there should haue been with you by the preaching of repentance from dead works , and faith in Christ : that the people ( as the Lord should haue vouchsafed grace ) being first fitted for , & made capable of the sacraments , and other ordinances , might afterwards have communicated in the pure vse of them : for want of which , in stead of a pure vse , there hath been , and is at this day a most prophane abuse of them , to the great dishonour of Christ , and his gospell , and to the hardening of thowsands in their impenitencie . Others also indeavouring yet a further reformation , have sued , and do sue to Kings , and Queens , and Parliaments , for the rooting out of the Prelacy , and with it , of such other evill fruits as grow from that bitter root : and on the contrary to have the Ministery , government , and discipline of Christ set over the Parishes , as they stand : the first fruit of which reformation , ( if it were obteyned , ) would be the further profanation of the more of Gods ordinances vpon such , as to whom they apperteyned not , and so the further provocation of his great Majesty vnto anger , and indignation against all such , as so practised , or consented therevnto . Is it not strange that men in the reforming of a Church , should almost , or altogether forget the Church which is the people , or that they should labor to crown Christ a King over a people , whose Prophet he hath not first been ? or to set him to rule by his law●s , & officers , over the professed subjects of Antichrist , & the Divel ? or is it possible that ever they should submit to the discipline of Christ , which have not first been prepared , in some measure , by his holy doctrine , & taught with meek●es to stoop vnto his yoke ? Both you Mr B : & they of the other sort do tel vs oft of the reformed Churches , and of your agreement with them . I wish to God from my very hart , that both you , and they , would compare your selves with them , in this principall point , vnto which all other are but as accessaries . They after the abolition of Popery , were established at the first , whether by a new plantation ( new wee mean in respect of the present estate of Rome ) or by reformation onely , as you will haue it : and are still continued , and increased by the free , voluntary , and personall profession of faith , and confession of sinnes of such men , and women , as are by the word of God , and the publishing of it , perswaded , and in some measure fore-fitted to joyn vnto them , and walk with them : and all this without any compulsion with the fear of Iosiahs sword , or Hezechiahs proclamation , by which you confesse your Church to have been , in the persons of King Edward & Queen Elizabeth , brought back from Antichrist to the reformation wherin now you stād : for which you peremptorily professe , there is not required any profession of the name of Christ. Let it then be considered of , and judged by all indifferent men , how it can possibly be that both the reformed Churches abroad , and the vnreformed Church of England , can be truely gathered , after the apostasie of Antichrist : the former being separated from Popety into covenant with the Lord , in the particular members , by voluntary profession of faith without compulsion ; and the latter by compulsion , without profession of faith . Howsoever government , & freedom , or voluntarynes , be not contrary according to your most ignorant affirmation ; yet compulsion , and voluntarines are ; and contraries cannot stand together and be made true , no not by God himself . My hope was that ( the argument of compulsion once ended , ) I might , with good leave , have returned to the former book : but see , after so many provings , and professings of Rome a true Church , & still in covenant with God , & that the Churches now separating from her , were not to be gathered of such voluntaries , as in the first plantation , nor needed the preaching of the word to go before for their conversiō , but that the Magistrate might compel them by fear , and that so the reformation of the Church of England was wrought , Mr B. now tels vs a cleane contrary tale , and that their reformation was voluntary , and not constreyned , and how that came about . First , ( to let passe the succession of the Church he pleads from King Etheldred , King of Kent , of which I haue spoken so lately , as the reader may bear mine answer in mind ) that the Queens Maiesty with many others , began a voluntary reformation , and that the supream power ( as he calls it ) being gathered , made proclamatiō of her godly intent , which was a kind of teaching to which the people yeelded voluntarily , for any thing that any man can say to the contrary : and pag. 245. adioyned themselves vnto them , and that the act of the cheif doing it voluntarily , is to be accounted the act of all , though the inferiours come not to consent , for proof of which he quoteth three scriptures , Ex. 19. 3. 7. 8. Iosh. 4. 2. 8. 2 Chr. 14. 2. A solide proof ; bycause the Queen did voluntarily imbrace the truth in a measure , therfore the whole body of the land , whom she vrged by proclamation , and other inforcements , did voluntarily professe , and imbrace the same . For touching the supream power gathered , that is , the Counsell , & Nobles , when she came to the crown they were such , as had imediately before both enacted , and exequuted most bloody statutes against such as voluntarily professed the truth , and where you , and the Ministers with you , pag. 187. affirm that the body of the land did in Queen Elizabeths tyme adioyn themselves vnto that company which had stood out in Queen Maries dayes , it is clean otherwise , for they that so stood out adioyned themselves to the rest in the severall Parishes , where their houses stood , and occasions lay , vnder the formerly masse-preists , & then for the most part , ignorant and prophane preists , with their English reformed masse-book . In adding further , that the Queens proclamation was a kind of teaching , you trifle notably : the quaestion is of such a teaching , as was effectuall to make a whole nation of Antichristians the week before , true Christians , and a true Church . It was in deed the onely effectuall means the people had generally : and if the Queen had proclaymed the contrary the next week , it would haue been as effectual to haue turned them to their former vomit again . Your presumption , that no man can say to the contrary , but that the people yeelded voluntarily to the truth , vpon the Queens proclamation is vayn , considering what the † voluntary yeeling , or submission vnto the Gospel of Christ is , which the scriptures commend vnto vs , in the establishing of Churches . The gospel is a supernaturall thing , and cannot possibly be yeelded vnto voluntarily by a naturall man , or perswaded , but by a supernaturall motive , which is onely it self : & that by the operation of the spirit also in some measure , it cannot be vnderstood , and beleeved but by it self published , and proclaymed ( as the sun is seen by it own light ) much lesse can it be willed , and willingly yeelded vnto : for the will must follow the vnderstanding , neyther can any man will that he knowes not . Besides , the many treasons ▪ and great rebellions raysed to reestablish Popery in the lād , the great good liking of the old law ( as they term it ) which still is found in the multitude , and the apparant hatred and persequution against the true profession of the gospel in any measure , ( though there be ten now for one in the beginning of the Queens reign that haue atteyned to some measure of knowledge and conscience of godlynes ) do confirm that which I say , viz : that the yeelding vnto the gospell in the multitude , could not be voluntary . The three scriptures you bring to shew , that the agreement of the cheif is accounted in the case of faith , and religion the act of all , though the inferiours give not their consent , is by you egregiously perverted ; for they do all & every one of them plainly prove the peoples consent . The first is Exod. 19. 3. 7. 8. where v : 3. the Lord signifies his wil vnto Moses , and v : 7. Moses propounds the same things vnto the Elders , and v : 8. all the people ( viz having the same things by the Elders propounded to them , as Iunius vpon that place , ( and so will any man of common sense ) noteth , promise obedience to all the Lords commandements . The second place is Iosh. 4. 2. 8. where it is evident to him that reads the scripture quoted with it , that which is written , ch . 3. 9. and Deut. 27. 1. 2 3. &c. that the twelve men that took the twelve stones out of the mi●des of lorden for a memoriall of the peoples safe passing over , did it with the distinct knowledge , and actuall consent of the multitude , and of all the people , as is sayd , v : 1. who are also expresly commanded by Ioshua , v : 2. of the same chapt : and v : 12. of the chapt : before going to chuse , or take these twelve men for the purpose before named . Lastly for 2. Chron. 14 as ●t is true , that Asa the King did provoke the rest to seek the Lord , both by his example and authority , so is it as true , that the people sought the Lord their God with him , and as vntrue that any did by his power , obey , in fear , as you affirm . The Lord himself testifies expresly against you , and that all Iudah , & Beniamin assembled in Ierusalem , and made a covenant to seek the Lord God of their fathers with all their hart , and with all their sowl ; of whom also it is witnessed accordingly , that , they swore vnto the Lord with all their heart , and sought him with a whol desire . And for the point it self , howsoever in bodily things , the people may refer themselves to the determinations of their superiours , and may bind themselves to rest in them , as in their own acts , though they neyther take knowledge of , nor give consent vnto the things in particular , yea though they be to their bodyly domage : yet in the matters of faith , and religion , it is clean otherwise , and to hold the same proportion is a very popish errour , which makes the governours Lords over the peoples faith . And thus at the last am I got back whence I digressed , & will now proceed in the examination of such reasons , as Mr B : brings to prove that profane persons , or to vse his own words , men of lewd conversation , are not false matter of the Church . To which purpose , he first distinguisheth true matter into good , and bad ; and so taking that which is bad , & naught vnto himself , for the matter of his Church , he will yet have it true , and no false matter . And this distinction of his , he labours to exemplifie by similitude , and to confirm by example . The similitude he borrowes from a materiall house , and the matter of it , timber , & stone , which makes eyther nothing to the matter in hand , or if any thing , against himself . If there can possibly be any false matter of an house , then rotten timber is false matter : and so wicked and vnrepentant sinners dead , and rotting in the grave of sinne , are false matter in proportion : but if there can be no false matter of a materiall house , then he may see how maymed his comparison is , when the termes of the one side are impossible . Howsoever it is evident , that the house of God , the Church is a † spirituall house made of lively stones , * built vpon that lifegiving foundation Christ Iesus . And as a man , ( or other living creature ) being once become dead naturally , cannot be called a true man naturally , so neyther can a man spiritually dead in trespasses , and sinnes , be called a true man spiritually , and therefore not true matter of that spirituall house the Church . The things you further adde , namely , that all Churches have in them good , and bad matter , that men deserving iustly to be cast out , are not false matter , nor so cast out of the Church , but as bad matter , but true : that excommunicates are still brethren by their professiō ; are all of them so many devises of your own without proof , or truth . For first it is not true , that all Churches ( which you take for such ) have in them good matter : for there may be by your owne graunt , true Churches by their profession , consisting onely of wicked persons , which you acknowledge bad matter , though true ; and there are full many parish Churches in Engl : wherein , he that should be put to find any good matter , yea one holy and sanctifyed man , had need with the Cynick Phylosopher , seek it , o● him , with a candle at noon day , neyther is it true on the other side , that all Churches haue in them bad matter : there are Churches in the world , wherein ( by the mercy of God , and power of his ordinances ) there is no visible bad matter , that is , no person of known lewd conversation : els God forbid . You wrong the Churches of Christ , and deceive the Christian reader , where in the shutting vp of this point , you perswade him , that he shall find , ever cause thus to be affected , and to greive , ( viz at lewd persons in the Church ) wheresoever he comes . He may , and ought to come , where there is no such cause of greif , nor ( by the grace of our God assisting vs ) shal be , without reformation ; though you measure others by your own lyne . Now for the second poynt , nothing can be more vntruely affirmed , then that the Church may cast out any part , or parcel of her true matter . For first , all the true matter of the Church hath vpon it the form of the Church , and so is of the essence , and being of the Church , which for the Church to cast out , were to destroy her own essence , & being . Secondly , the true matter of the Church , and true members of Christ , are the same . As † Christ is called the foundation of the house , they of the Church , are the matter of the building : as he is called * the head of his body , they are his members : whom to excommunicate , is to deliver vnto Sathan , 1 Cor. 5. 5. whervpon I do necessarily inferre , that if to excommunicate be to deliver to Sathan , and that the Church may lawfully excommunicate wicked persons , and that wicked persons be true matter , and that true matter be true members of Christs body , then may the Church lawfully deliver to Satan the true members of Christs body , which I abhor to write . And though your Ordinaries Mr B. be oft tymes so liberall of the true members of Christ , as thus to deliver them to the Divel , yet had the Ministers of Christ rather have their own members torn from their bodies , then thus to dismemthe blessed body of the Lord Iesus . The heynousnes of this fact shewes the vanity of your distinction , the errour of your opinion , and the falsity of your Church . Lastly you do mistake the two scriptures , which you bring to prove , that a man iustly excommunicate is still called a brother in the scriptures , and so to be held by the Church . The Apostle in the former place , 2 Th. 3. 15. speaks not of a man excommunicated , no● worthy to be excommunicated neyther : but of such a person , as followes not his calling faithfully as he ought , but , being negligent in his own , is to busy in other mens matters : whom he wills the brethren to mark , and no way to countenaunce in suc● walking , but on the contrary to shew their dislike of it , that he may see it , and be ashamed of it : and this he that reads over the chapter , shall observe ( I suppose ) to be the Apostles meaning . In the second place , which is , 1 Cor. 5. 11. his meaning is , not , that Christians becōming fornicators , covetous , Idolaters , and so continuing obstinate , should still be reputed brethren notwithstanding , but he speaks of a brother there , as Ezechiel speaks of a righteous man , chapt . 18. 24. that turns away from his righteousnes and commits in●quity , and doth according to all the abomination of the wicked , &c. and as truely may it be affirmed , that the person Ezechiel speaks of , is still to be reputed a righteous man , as that he , of whom Paul speaks , is still to be accounted a brother . Both the Prophet , and Apostle speaks of such persons , ●s were righteous , and brethren reputatively , before they did so bastardly degenerate . And is it possible , that Christ should charge his Ch : to account an obstinate offender , as an heathen and publican , Mat. 18. and that Paul should come after , and direct them to account him a brother ? Besides † all the members of the Church are brethren : and to become a member is to become a brother , and so to be excommunicated out of the Church is nothing els but to be cast out of the Churches brotherhood . Lastly , the Apostle , 1 Cor. 5. 11. names idolatours amongst the rest ; and will you haue idolaters your brethren , Mr B ? why then did you in the former pag. exclude Papists , and pag. 108. Idolatours vniversally ? A holy brotherhood it seems you will have , brother idolater , haeretique , and what not ? The instance you bring of Symon Magus an hypocrite received by the Apostle , ( by the Evangelist you should say ) Act. 8. makes strōgly against you , if it be well considered , what is written of him . For after he was discovered by Peter not to have his heart right in the sight of God , he was pronounced by him to have neyther part , nor fellowship in that busines . ver : 21. Now if Philip had discerned thus much by him at the first , do you think he would have acknowledged him for a partener in it ? or haue given the seal of the forgivenes of sinns , of new birth , and of salvation ( as you truely prove baptism to be pag. 119. ) to such a blank ? nay would be haue prophaned the Lords holy things vpon such a dog or swyne , contrary to the expresse commaundement of Christ , Math. 7. 6. Cease Mr B. to excuse your self by accusing the holy Apostles , and Evangelists of Christ. And herevpon I do thus argue . They that haue no right to the holy things of God in the Ch : are not to be admitted into it , neyther is the Church gathered of such persons , rightly , and truely gathered . But men of lewd conversation have no right to the holy things of God in the Church ; and therefore the Church gathered of such persons , is not truely gathered . The former propositiō is clear , bycause men admitted into the Church , are admitted to the participation , and cōmunion of the holy things of God in the Church . The 2. also appeareth , both by the scripture before named , where Peter pronounceth , that , such as have not their hart right with God , ( which no lewd persons hav or ever had ) haue no part in the holy things of God , as also by Mr Bernards own graunt , namely , that wicked persons are to be cast out of the Church . And what could there be in the world more ridiculous , yea or wherein God were more plainly mocked , then to gather a Church of such persons , as are judged fit to be cast out of the Church ? And yet for this Church-gathering ( being indeed his own ) Mr B : pleads both here , and every where , both in this , and his other book . In the next place come in certayn popular similitudes , to colour over that rotten errour , which can by no reason , or scripture , be made sound : in number three , which I will consider in order . Two persons are lawfully marryed by publique profession and mutuall cor●●nt : now though the wise perform not her covenant , but prove vnfaithful , yet is she still a true wis● , till the bill of divorcement be given out . I graunt it : but see you not , how you take the thing for granted , which wee deny , namely , that your nationall Church is the true wife of Christ ? Since he divorced his ancient wife the nation of the Iewes , he never maried , nor will marry , nation more : much lesse , ( which is more specially to be cōsidered ) did he ever marry for his lawfull wife the prophane multitudes of vnhallowed Atheists wherwith , as you confesse in the beginning of your book your Church aboundeth . Hath Christ commaunded his † people not to be vnequally yoked with vnbeleevers ? and will he yoke himself with them , & with Atheists , & other wicked persons ? which are in deed † infidels , & unbeleevers , whatsoever they professe in word , though you in your 2 book Mr B. do with defiance avouch the contrary . The same Apostle in an other place affirmeth that , * he which coupleth himself with an harlot , is one body with her : & forbids the faithfull , as a most impious thing , to make the members of Christ , the members of an ▪ harlot : and will Christ make himself the head of harlots , theves , murtherers , blasphemers , and the like ? or become one body with them , he the head , and they the members , as it is betwixt him , and his Church , 1 Cor. 10. 17. & 12. 12. 27. Lastly , no Woman having a former housband alive , may take a second , or be lawfully maryed vnto him : but wicked & prophane persons have a former husband yet living , even the law , or sin taking occasion by the law , to work in them all manner of lust , & ruling over them as the husband over the wife , to which also they are bound , as the wife vnto the housband : Rom. 7. 1. 2. 3. 5. 8. & therefore cannot be maryed vnto Christ , nor become his wife . The 2. similitude followeth . A man professing obedience to a king as his alone sovereign , and obeying his lawes in the general , though he transgresse in some things openly , & greatly , is that Kings true subiect notwithstanding . You deal vnfaithfully , & put the case wrong . The question is of a man professing himself in word the Kings loyall subiect , & his alone , but in deed , & truth , the sworn slave of his professed enemy , & an apparant rebell against the Kings majesty . And whether such a one be a true subiect vnto the King or no : for such , and no better , are wicked , & profane men , whatsoever in word they professe , even slaves , and vassals of the Divel , and rank rebels against the L. Iesus . Right now you would have Rome a true Church , & now you will have Iesuites the Kings true subjects : for such they professe themselves , as boldly , as falsly . And yet no Romish Preist , or Iesuit is more treacherous to the Kings person , & state , then is a prophane vngoldly man professing Christianity , to the crown , & dignity of Christ Iesus . The 3. resemblance is of a man professing one onely trade , though bunglingly , or carelesly , whom none will call a false trades-man , but eyther no good trades-man , or vnprofitable , yet truely that trades-man by his profession . Here , as before , you mis-put the case ; you should instance in a man professing a trade or faculty , but practising the contrary in his generall course . For example , a man professeth himself ▪ in word a surgeon , or physition , but is observed , and found in deed and practise , to poyson men , and cut their throtes , and this to be his resolved course . Now so charitable is Mr B. as he will have this man still called , and that truely , a Physition , or surgeon , though not good , nor profitable . But the truth is , he is a false , and treacherous homicyde , and murtherer , and so to be abhorred of all , but of none eyther to be called , or accounted a true physition , or surgeon , eyther good , or evil . Such a one , and no better is he to his own soul , that vnder the profession of Christianity in word , practiseth wickednes , and impiety , and hath his conversation in them . The authour , having thus ended his defence for the bad and naughty matter of his Church , so granted by him , in effect , comes to speak of false matter : but so breifly , and darkly withall , as it appears plainly , he is loth to meddle with it , least in the handling , his bad matter should prove false matter , as it comes to passe with counterfeyt coyn . That he sayth then is , that false matter is contrary to this true matter , that is to the true matter , of which he hath spoken . Wherevpon it followeth , that since the true matter , he hath spoken of , is wicked , and vngodly men , though professing Christ ▪ and that holy , and godly men are contrary to men wicked , & vngodly , that therefore godly and holy men are contrary to the true matter of his Church , and so by his reckoning , false matter . To conclude this point . What is false , but that which hath an appearance of truth , but not the truth it self , whereof it makes shew ? in which respect the scriptures also speak of false Christs , false Prophets , false Apostles , false brethren , false witnesses , false ballances , and the like : pretending themselves to be that which they are not , and to have that truth in them , which they have not : of all which , there is none more truely false , nor more fitly so called , then that man is , and is called truely a false christian , or false matter of the Church , which 〈◊〉 in word he looks to be saved by Iesus Christ , and yet continues in a lewd , and wicked conversation † having a shew of godlines , but denying the power thereof : and * professing the knowledg of God , but by works denying him . Wherevpon I do also conclude , that the body of the Church of England being gathered generally ▪ and for the most part of such members visibly , cannot be the true visible body of Christ , except a true living body can be compact of false , and dead members . That which comes next into consideration , in M● B : order , is the visible form of the Church ; as he calls it , which he makes ( & truely ) the vniting of vs vnto God , & one to another visibly , & in his † 2. book , the covenant , by which Godsets vp a people to be his people , and they him mutually to be their God. This description he illustrateth by a similitude borrowed from a materiall building , whose form ariseth from the coupling together of the stones vpon the foundatiō : which he also further manifesteth , by comparing it with the form of the invisible Church , by which the faithfull are vnited to God , through Christ invisibly , and one vnto another . Of the termes of which comparison , and their proportion , wee shall speak by , and by . I do onely in the mean while intreat the reader to observ with me these two things . The former , that , Mr B : having in the beginning of his book censured vs very severely , and that with D. Allisons concurring testimony , for misapplying 1 Pet. 2. 5. to the visible Church , which sayd they , was meant of the invisible Church , here notwithstanding he interprets it of the visible Church , even as we do . The latter , that speaking of the invisible Church , and the form of it , he brings in sundry scriptures , as so to be expounded , which are apparantly intended of the visible Church : & amongst the rest these three . Ephe. 2. 22. and 4. 4. 1 Cor. 12. 13. the last of which he himself also within a few pages following expounds as meant of the visible Church , and the properties thereof . Now for the comparison betwixt the form of the invisible , and visible Church ▪ wherein if Mr B. observed due proportion , and made the form of the visible Church the same visibly , externally , & in respect of men , which he doth the form of the invisible Church invisibly , internally , and in respect of God , and so layd down things in simple , and playn terms , the truth in the point would easily appeare , & much needles labour be spared on both sides . The form of the invisible Church he noteth , first , and on Gods part to be raysed , by the spirit , by which invisible hand , God taketh men immediately by the hart , and sayth he wil be th●●● God : 2. and on mans part , by ●aith , by which invisible hand the beleevers do take hold of the promise of the spirit , beleeving that they are his people , and he their God : and that thru God and man are invisibly vnited ▪ and 3. by love , by which men take hold one of another and so are vnited together invisibly . And all this he confirms sufficiently by the scriptures . Answerable vnto which 3. invisible hands for this invisible vnion , he makes 3. visible handes for the visible vnion : 1. vnto the spirit , the word : 2. vnto faith , the profission of faith : 3. vnto love , the sacrament of the Lords supper : for ●o he proportioneth them . The colour of truth , which these things may seem to haue in their mutuall reference , will ●ub off in the very touching of the particulars . But if Mr B. would ha●e observed just proportion , and haue set things down playnly , he should haue said thus , or to this effect . As the invisible , internall , and effectuall vnion of God with man , of man with God , and of one man with another is raysed from the invisible , internall , and effectuall work of the spirit , invisible , internall , and effectuall faith , and love , which are onely seen , and known of God , and of the parties themselves , in whom they are ; so must the visible , externall , and apparant vnion of God with man , of man with God , and of one man with an other , arise from the visible , externall , and apparent work of the spirit ; visible , externall , and apparant faith , and love , which are seen of men , and made sensible to the ey of charity , which judgeth probably of thinges which are not seen , by the things which are seen . For albeit , it be true , which Mr B. hath in his 2. book , that wee are not therefore a Church of God , bycause men so judge vs , but bycause God hath received vs into covenant with himself ; yet it must also be considered , that the Church is not called visible in respect of God , but of men , to whom it doth , or may appear , & by whom it is so discerned , and judged probably . The scriptures do speak of a † iustification before God , which is by ●aith alone ; and of “ a iustification before men , which is by work● : the former of which we may truely call invisible justification , as known to none but God , and the conscience of the party justifyed : the other visible justification , as being manifest , and made visible vnto men , by works , as ver : 18. of the Chapter before named , where the Apostle speaketh of shewing , manifesting , or making visible faith ▪ and so consequently justification ; by works . And look what is here sayd of visible , and invisible faith , and justification , the same from other scriptures compared together may be affirmed of visible , and invisible election , redemption , sanctification ; as also of visible , and invisible saynts for the matter ; and of the visible and invisible vnion for the form of the visible , and invisible Church : the invisible being certayn , infallible , and so known to be , of God : the visible , morall , probable , and so appearing vnto men . There is in deed , and in the right disposition of things by the revealed will of God , but * one Church of Christ , which is his body , whereof he is the head , and which he hath purchased with his blood : for Christ hath not purchased two Churches with his blood , but one , neyther is the head of two bodyes , but of one : and according to this purchase of Christ , and ordinance of God , all that are of the visible Church are also of the invisible , and all of the invisible of the visible Church , which are indeed not two , but one Church , in two sundry respects , as I have formerly shewed . I deny not , but that , as it hath been sayd of old , there are many sheep without , and many wolves within : many of the visible Church , which are not of the invisible Church , and so answerably , many of the invisible Church , which never come into the visible Church . But this say I , is not according to the revealed will of God , in his word ; but by mans default , and sin . It is their sin of ignorance or infirmity , which ( being of the invisible Church ) do not , ( if possibly they can ) joyn themselues vnto the visible Church , there to partake in the visible ordinances : it is their sinne of hypocrisie , and presumption , which not being of the invisible Church ; do adjoyn themselves to the visible Church , there to prophane the Lords covenant , & ordinances , to which they have no right . For how can they being wicked , and vnholy , chalendge the LORD to be their GOD , that is , all happines , & goodnes , vnto them , which is one part of the covenant . or professe themselves to be his people , which is another part ? when the Divel is their God , and their lusts ; and they his , & their people , and servants , to whom they obey ? or what have they to do to meddle with Gods covenant , whom he expresly forbids to take it in their mouthes ? It is therefore a vile & profane defence , which you are driven to , Mr B : by pleading , that wicked persons are true matter of the Church , and so admitted into covenant with God , in the 2. book ; that obedience onely followes the covenant as the fruit of it : and that God requires not actuall obedience , or that wee should be actually good , or holy , before , or when we covenant with him : but that he should make vs good ; and that wee should be good , and perform actuall obedience afterward ; which as it is notable Anabaptistry , and in deed the ground of that haeresy being applyed to the covenant of the Iewish Church : so being applyed to the covenant of the Church now , it is worse then Anabaptistry . And consider this man , he makes the sacrament of the Lords supper a ground , and part of the covenant , and yet affirms , that God for mens entering into this covenant , requires not that they should be holy , and good : and so by this deep divinity , it must needs follow , that the Lord requires not that men should be good , or holy for their partaking in the sacrament of the Lords supper . The particulars now follow , in which you place this visible vnion , and covenant of the Lord with his people , of them with him , and of one of them with another . The first whereof is his word , which ( say you ) is the onely first visible note , and testimony from God , by which he makes a people his people . Ps. 147. 19. Rom. 3. 1. 2. Ioh. 17 ▪ 6. and so you go on to prove , that this word is Gods outstretched hand to subdue people vnto him : the sword of the spirit by which he smiteth : the immortall seed , by which he begetteth , and maketh alive : the word of reconcilation , by which he reconcileth his Church , and people . And therevpon you conclude , that to whomsoever God sends his word , to them he testifieth his love , and desire to make them his Church , and people . To let passe the repugnancy in your words , as first , where you speak of the onely first note , as though there could possibly be more firsts then one : and 2. where you make the word a note , and testimony , by which God makes a people his people : whereas notes and testimonyes do not make that to be , which is not , but do shew and declare it to be already . I do answer , that as it is true , that where God sends his word , there ●e testifieth his love ; and is desirous , that is , in respect of the outward offer of the meanes to make such a people his Church ; so is it most vntrue , that to whomsoever God sends his word , and testifyes his desire outwardly to make them his people , and Church , that those he makes his Church , and people , or vnites himself visibly unto them . The vniting of God vnto men is an effect of the word , which it alwayes hath not vpon them to whom it is sent . Externall efficients do never prove & argue their effects necessarily , except they work naturally , and infallibly also , which the wor● doth not , but morally , and according to the good pleasure , and blessing of the Lord vpon it . It is as you truely say , Mr B. the outstretched hand of the Lord in it self , but it doth not vnite the Lord to any , except he take hold of them with it : it is in it self hat ▪ immortall seed , but may fall vpon † the very high way , and so have no good effect at all , eyther in truth or appearance : the messengers of it are the Lords mouth vnto them to whom it is sent , but all receive not this message to whom it comes ; * some make light of it , & neglect it , others do evilly entreat them that bring it , hating , reviling , and persequuting both them and it . Act. 13. 45. and 17. 18. Now will you say that God strikes hands with these men , & on his part enters covenant with them actually , bycause his word is published amongst them ? The inward , and invisible hand of the spirit must not onely be stretched out by the Lord , but must seaze , and take hold of the heart , and be effectuall invisibly , and internally , before this invisible vnion be made on the Lords part : so must the Lords outward , and visible hand , his word , not onely be stretched out , but also seaze , and take hold of the outward man , at the least , and be effectuall visibly , and externally vpon him , before the Lord can be sayd on his part to haue contracted any visible vnion . In the next place comes the visible hand of man , by which he on his part c●tracts with God , & enters covenant with him visibly : & that Mr B. makes the open profession of faith vnto the doctrine taught , which such as make , he sayth , have visibly taken hold of the word , & struc●en hands with God. You make much of nothing Mr B. or of that which is worse thē nothing . Even now the profession of faith made the true matter of the Church ; and here it must make the true form of the Church : and yet the truth is , that in the forming of your nationall English Church by a new covenant from that wherein it stood in Popery , which was by your own graunt , with Saints and Angels in stead of God , & , I adde , with Antichrist , in the stead of Christ , no such profession of faith was made , as your self here do both require , and prove necessary for the forming of the visible Church , or her vniting with God. And that I manifest in two particulars . The former is ▪ that the profession of faith required for a peoples vniting with the Lord their God , must be made both freely , and particularly by the persons themselves so vniting . And this appeares both by that which you haue sayd of Gods giving , or sending his word , which is his visible outstretched hand , by which he offereth reconcilation vnto men personally , and so by consequent requires that they stretch out the hand of personall profession to him : and also by the scriptures alledged by you ; all which do give witnes of such a confession of faith , and sinnes , as was freely made by the persons themselves particularly , which were ioyned to the Church . Let the reader take knowledg of these scriptures amongst the rest . Mat. ● . 6. Act. 2. 38. 1 Cor. 1● . 1. 2. the profession of faith noted in the scriptures by you produced , was not made by men of lewd conversation , or apparantly vnsanctified ( of whom alone , and their vnion with God our question is ) but by men visibly , and externally holy ; and such , as all of them were , visibly , and so far as men in charity could judge , iustified , sanctified , and intitled to the promises of salvation , and life eternall . The scriptures are ( besides the th 〈…〉 last named , Math. 3. 6. Act. 2. 38. with which compare vers . 3● ▪ 41 47. 1 Cor. 15. 1. ) Mat. 10. 40. 41. & 32. Act. 8. 12. 13. 37. 38. 1 Cor. 6. 1● . Col. 2. 11. 12. Tit. 3. 5. Who but you Mr Bernard would thus wrong eyther these scriptures as iustifying the admission of lewd persons , des●rving to be excommunicated , into the Ch : or the Apostles of Christ for admitting , or baptizing such ? And yet these persons are the true bad matter , for which you pleaded so much formerly : and which here by these scriptures , you would bring into a true bad vnion with God. For of these for the most part , hath the nation alwayes consisted , and of these your Ch : was gathered at the first , when it became national , & so hath stood formed ever since . The 3. & last thing for the perfecting of this visible covenant , & vn●ing of the mēbers one to another , M. B. makes , the holy sacramēt of the L. supper , which a● it is a seal of our faith , so i● i● a testimony of that visible com●●●iō of love , also of one member with another . 1 Cor. 10. 16. 17. You confound all things in saying the sacrament makes the covenaunt ; which is a seal of it , and praesupposeth both the covenant , and the Church , whereof it is an ordinance . The covenant must be before the Church , and the Church before the sacrament : how then can the sacrament make the Church ? And where you further call it an holy sacrament , a seal of ●aith , a testimony of the visible cōmunion of love , & of one member with another , you speak the truth , but not truly : such it is in it self , & in the right administration , & use of it : but not in the prophane abuse of it vpon wicked men , of whom wee speak : and for whom , & their vniting with Christ you here plead . Vpō whom whilest you , & the rest of the ministers of your Church , do prophane it , as you do , the more holy it is in it self , the more vnholy is your fact , & the more heynous your sin . It is as you say , the seal of faith , and of the for●ivenes of sinns through faith to the penitent , & beleevers , but is it therefore so , & such to apparantly impenitent , & vnbeleeving persons ? it is in it self a testimony of the cōmunion of love : but is it so vnto , & among the wicked ? or is it not in that abuse made a lying witnes to testifie , & witnes love , where apparant hatred , and malice reigns against God , & good men ? It is an outward pledge , or symbole of the cōmunion which the faithful haue with Christ , ( for of that the Apostle speaketh 1 Cor. 10. 16. 17. directly ) and so by cōsequence , one with another : & bycause it vnites Christ the head with his own members , & one of them with another , doth it therefore vnite Christ or his true members , with the true apparant visible lims of the Divil , which all vngodly men and women are ? This is the force of Mr Br. arguments . Bycause the L. supper is of this or that vse unto them , to whō by the word of God it apperteyns , therefore it hath or must be judged to haue the same vse amongst them which are apparant vsurpers of it , and to whom by the word of God it apperteyns not . There is nothing more cōmon in both his books , then this kind of deceiptfull arguing . Here is yet an Arg : of cōparisō to be taken knowledg , & cōsidred of ; & the rather because the author both wills the reader to note it , in the margent , and repeats it himself over & over , in the text . The Argument is , that , a● continual si●nes & corruptions of the hart● of the elect , do not make thē false Christians before God , or no true invisible mēbers of Christ : so neyther do outward offences , or corruptions , m●k open professors of the saith , false Christians before men , or no true visible members of Christ. True , no more ; due proportion observed : namely , tha● those outward offences do not reign in the mortall bodyes of men , ●● the inward corruptions do not reign in the hearts of the elect . But let the reader here remember the subiect of the quaestion , which is , men of lewd conversation , and deserving to be excommunicated , and then the noting of Mr B. Arg : wil be like David● noting the Amal●kites tydings of the death of S●ul , and Ionathan , to the destruction of him that brought them . For by the same rule of proportion I argue thus . As they in whose hearts , sinns , and corruptions reign inwardly , are no true Christians before God , nor actuall members of Christ invisibly : so they in whose lives , and conversations , sinnes and corruptions reign outwardly , are no true Christians before men nor members of Christ visibly . And here comes to my mind an other argument much what like this , in Mr B. 2. book : where he will have a mixt company of godly , and wicked persons to be called holy , or a company of saynts , as well as a person , holy , in whom there is a mixture of the spirit , and flesh . But the difference is playn . In this mixt body of godly , & wicked , sin reigns in some of the members but in no part of body , or faculty of soul of a person , in whom the spirit is , ( though never so much flesh be mingled with it ) doth sinne reign . He might as well say , the whole Church so mixt shal be saved : for the whol man shal be saved , by faith in Christ , notwithstanding all mixture in him . Now the conclusion Mr B. makes , that , their congregations professe Christ , as is before sayd ; that God hath given them his holy word , and sacraments : & moved the harts of all of them outwardly to receive both the one , and the other , is vnproved , and vntrue . For first , there is no one congregation in the Land whose particular members made that holy profession in any measure , by & according to which the Apostles did constitute and vnite visible congregations . Secondly , I deny that the Lord hath given his sacraments to any congregation in the Land : there are very many in the best ordered parishes , which take them without the Lords gift : as being wicked vsurpers of them , vnto which by the revealed will of God they have no right . But here I must needs discover Mr Bernards haunt , and the turning , by which in his second book he vsually declines both Mr Ainsworths & Mr Smyths Arguments of this nature : and that is , by telling them , that all are not wicked amongst them , that some , or many haue the true knowledge of Gods word : and that the fear of God possesseth the hearts of many : as in this place , that God hath moved the hearts of many of the people effectually , and the like : and that therefore we do them wrong in condemning all for some : and in denying the good their right , for others default . To this I answer first that those that can be truely judged to fear God , are thin strewed in the best places : and not many in comparison of the rest , as is pretended , but a very small handfull : and besides , it is but casuall , and accidentall to the congregation , and nothing to the constitution of it , that there is one man truely fearing God in it . The parish must be a true vivisible constituted Church , as well one as another , and so receive the sacraments together , whether the Lord have had any such work ( as is here spoken of ) in the hearts of any , or no. And 2. it must be considered , & I pray the teader well to observe it , that the quaestion here betwixt Mr B. and me ( and so ordinarily betwixt him , and them ) is about the congregation ( which consists of all the members ioyntly ) and not about some particulars cōsidered severally from the rest , of whom the congregation consists not . I am verily perswaded there are in many congregations many that truely feare God : ( and the Lord encrease their number , and graces ) and if they were separated from the rest into visible communion , I should not doubt to account them such cōgregations , as vnto which God had given his sacraments : but take them as they are even one with the rest , in one ioynt communion , as members of one body , making all together one Church , & congregation , so joyned at the first , and so still remayning , I deny that this Church , or congregation is the Lords people in covenaunt with him : or that he hath given vnto it his sacraments : yea or that those , which truely fear God , & are accepted of him in their persons , have in that communion , the right , and lawfull vse of them in many particulars . They cannot take them for pawnes and pledges of Gods love , and the forgivenes of sinns , to that congregatiō , wherewith they ioyn in the vse of them : nor as testimonies of true spirituall love amongst the persons communicating in them : nor as notes & badges of d●stinction , of that assembly , from all profane & vnhallowed assemblies in the world . And yet are all these common ends , and vses of the sacrament , as it is a communion , or cōmon vnion of the members with the head , and one with another mutually . Since therefore your congregations , or parish assemblies are ( & alwayes have been ) so constituted , as that neyther the greatest part of them ( being prophane ) have any interest in the sacraments , or can have any right vse of them in their persons , nor yet the rest in their communion : it must needs follow , ( except the Lord have given his sacraments to them , which can haue no right vse of them , and to whom they apperteyn not ) that the Lord hath not given his holy sacraments to your congregations . And where you further adde , that God hath moved the harts of all the people of your congregations outwardly to receive both the word , and sacraments , it is one , amongst the rest of your bold , but bare affirmations . Are there not many thowsands amongst you that vnderstand not the doctrine of the beginning of Christ , the very first principles of christiā religiō ? And hath God perswaded the harts of these to receive the word & sacramēts in any sence ? The Lord Iesus teacheth vs in the gospel that † every man that doth evill , hateth the light , neyther commeth to light , least his deeds should be reproved . And yet you will haue vs beleeve , that God hath perswaded the hearts of all the evill-doers amongst you , not onely to come to the light , but also to receive it . Let your own parish Mr B : stand for instance . There were in it ( to myne own knowledge ) when you wrote this book , that held most blasphemous errours touching the very Trinity ; and there are at this day , ( as I am certaynly informed ) who are so moved to receive the word , as that your Church-wardens are driven to spend a great part of the Lords day in hunting them from the ale-house to the temple . And if this be your case , what is the condition of the most congregations in the Land , to which the word of God hath not so much as been offered in any indifferent measure for the moving of their harts to receive it ? The truth is , the people are drawn in the most congregations , the most of them , and many in all , by compulsive lawes , to keep their Parish Church , to heare divine service , to communicate at Easter , and to receive the sacraments , and other rites : as is commaunded in the communion book : but how farre the most are from having their harts thus moved , as is pretended of all , to receive the word of God , appeareth too evidently in that great contempt , and hatred wherein they have such amongst themselves , as do in any sinceritie eyther preach or professe the same . To these things I may further adde , that , since the Lord hath given his word and sacraments to be dispensed to no people , but by the meanes which he hath prescribed in his word ▪ except the English Preisthood , and leitourgy were prescribed by the word of God , for these ministrations , even in this respect God cannot be ●ayd to have given his word , and sacraments to the congregations spoken of . Now although this which hath been sayd in answer to your grounds , be sufficient to disprove the form of your Church , as you your self Mr B. rayse it , yet for your further conviction , I will adde certayn Arguments to manifest , and make playn , that wicked , and vngodly men , and women are vncapable , by the word of the Lord , of his covenaunt , and of all spirituall visible vnion with him ; & so consequently your congregations ( gathered of such persons at the first , and of such still consisting generally , with a handfull godly minded scattered amongst them ) to remayn vnformed , by the Lords holy covenant . The Arguments are , First , bycause godly , and wicked men are contraries , as being guided , and led by contrary causes , the one sort by * the spirit , and the other by the fl●sh , which are contrary one unto another . Now two contraries are not capable of one , and the same form . Wicked men , and such as † hate to be reformed are forbidden , by the revealed will of God , from medling with his covenant , or ordinances : and therefore are not by the revealed wil of God received into covenant with him , or to the participation of his ordinances ▪ which are both one . Since wicked men are by the word of God ( as you your self graunt ) to be excommunicated , that is to be cut off from the visible vnion with Christ and his Church , how can they be sayd by the same word of God , to be capable of this vnion with Christ and his Church ? nothing can be eyther more vnreasonably affirmed , or more vngodlily practised . Lastly , the scriptures do expressely debarre men of lewd , and vngodly conversation , of all fellowship , vnion , and communion with God. If wee say , that we haue fellowship with him , and walk in darknes , we ly and do not truely , sayth the Apostle , Ioh. 1. Ep : 1. 6. and what fellowship sayth Paul , hath righteousnes with vnrighteousnes ? & what communion hath light with darknes ? and what concord hath Christ with Bel● ill ? or what part hath the beleever with the vnbeleever , or infidel ? &c. 2 Cor. 6. 14. 15. 16. 17. 18. The former of these scriptures is so directly against you , as if it were recorded by the holy Ghost with particular respect to your errour . You say that men though of a lewd conversation , that is , walking in darknes , have visible fellowship , vnion , and communion with God , if they professe they beleeve in Christ , or so say ; Iohn on the contrary teacheth that they which walk in darknes , have no fellowship with God , though they so say , but are lyars . The other scripture must be further opened , and inforced : considering how you charge vs in your 2. book with the wretched abuse of it ; and labour by a long discourse to wring it out of our hands : as being our speciall weapon ( as you say ) to fight for separation , and to defend the same . The four heads vnder which you reduce all the particulars about it , I will prosequ●te in order , as they are by you layd down . 1. the occasion . 2. the scope . 3. the matter intreated of . 4. the persons spoken of . For the first , it is true you affirm of the Christian Corinthians going to the idol feasts in the idol temples at the bidding of their freinds , and kinsfolks the heathen Corinthians : which I also acknowledg to haue been the mayn , and most immediate occasion of the Apostles writing , as he doth , but not the onely occasion . There was a former occasion of that , namely their marying with the vnbeleevers , & their † vnequall yoking with them that way : by which the other mischeif was occasioned amongst them , as it had been with other the servants of God before them , from the beginning of the world . Gen. 6. 2. In which respect therefore the Lord in the law forbad † the Israelites to take of the daughters of the heathen vnto their sonnes , least they provoked them to go awhoring after their Gods : which when they neglected , and mingled themselves with Idolaters in mariage , they presently fell into that monstrous mixture in religion , against which the Apostle dealeth , Numb . 25. 1 King. 11. 1. 2. 3. 4. Ezra 9. 1. 2. But where for the clearing of your selves of the very occasion , you do adde , that you dwell not in civill society with idolaters , but vnder a Christian King , and with a people professing Christ , where no publick Idols are set vp , nor any feasting in honour of them , you follow your old fashion of bold boasting without measure , or modesty . Do you not live in civil society with the Idolaters ? Haue you no Papists in your kingdom ? I may say in your Parish ? or are Papists become no idolaters with you , as Rome was right now no false Church , nor Iesuites false subiects ? The face of your charity Mr B. is so full set towards Rome , and Papists , as no marvayl though you be so vnequall towards vs , as you are . The truth is , you are in the most streyt bond of civil society with Popish idolaters , that may be . Ther is nothing more common amongst them of your Church , then to ioyn in mariage with them : neyther is there ( to my knowledge ) amongst all your canons any one against this ▪ prophane commixture . Neyther is it any thing you speak of living vnder a Christian King , or with a people professing Christ : for idolaters may live vnder a Christian King , and professe Christ too in a measure , as both many others , and all antichristiā idolaters do . Yea I have formerly manifested , that you live not onely in civill , but even in religious society with Papists , and you your self graunt as much of Atheists in the beginning of your book : and will you say that visible Atheists are true visible matter of the Church , and capable , by the word of God , of true visible fellowship , and communion with Christ , and the true members of his body ? The scope of ●e scripture followeth , which , say you , i● that the beleeving Corint●ians may have no fellowship with the infidels , and vnbeleevers , to their evill works ; but that they reprove , condemn , hate , and avoyd them . Belike then they might haue had fellowship with them in any good work : and so if any of the heathen , or infidell Corinthians would haue communicated with the Christian Corinthians in the sacraments , or prayer , they might not haue refused their fellowship , or communion herein . For by your exposition the Apostle onely forbids partaking with them in evill works & the works of darknes . Of which more hereafter . And here in our names you frame an obiection , the sum whereof is , that if all the godly would separate from all the wicked , then there should be no wicked of the Church . Vnto which you answer sundry things : but how sufficiently will appear in the particulars . First you say , God commaunds not his to separate wholly from all the wicked : but from Infidels , Gentiles , Idolaters ; Iewes , Turks , Papists , whose very societies are to be left as no people of God. Well then , I perceive , all religious fellowship with Papists is vnlawfull , and that their societies are no people of God. And how agrees this with your other affirmations , that Rome is a true Church : Papists true Christians , though under corruptions , as it was true Iob , though vnder soars : baptism there , a true sacrament , and seal of the covenaunt ; & yet here the societies of Papists are no people of God , that is in no covenant with him ? Or how doth this separatiō thus wholly to be made from Papists agree with that you write , pag. 91. of ioyning in prayer with such Papists , as though they be of the Church of Rome , yet sorrow for the abhominations , and as are come out from it in their soules , the best part , though not so in their bodyes ? The distinction you put between Infidels , and idolaters , and men of prophane life , wee shall consider of in due place : & for your speach of all the Church falling into the estate of infidelity , and so ●●dged of the Church , eyther it is without sense , or I , which vnderstand it not . Now to that you adde of separating from the private familiarity of the wicked , living in the society of the godly , and that , if they will not be reformed , other courses are to be taken with them , as their sin of obstinacy deserves , I answer these things . First , that , as there is a case , wherein private withdrawing from a brother is warrantable , namely , when his offence is private , and he privately obstinate , & that his sinne eyther cannot be , or is not yet made publick , & publiquely ●vin●●d : so to separate from men privately , and that onely , for publick offences , is a course without ground either of scripture , or rea son . You say , pag. 144. that ( alvin so expounds 1 Cor. 5. 11. and therevpō do take an occasion to accuse our practise as Brownisticall , & vs of Luciferian schisme , & Pharisaicall pride . As I leave your raylings to be iudged by the Lord , so do I give the reader to vnderstand , how you grossely abuse Calvins authority : who expounds that scripture ( as all men know it is meant ) of excommunicates , and of mens private cariage towards them : with which , publick separation is also to be joyned : I suppose you your self will not deny it . And where you speak of an other course to be taken with wicked men , that wil not be reformed , you should also shew what that course is , and what is to be done , if that course be not taken : but you have thought it a point of your wisdome to be silent in these things least by opening them too particularly , you should discover your own shame . The course to be taken is , the censuring of such incorrigible offenders by the particular congregation , whereof they are , being gathered together in the name of Christ , by the power of Christ ; with which power divine , and heavenly priviledge , he hath furnished his Churches every one of them , as well as that one of Corinth ; neyther doth any true Church of Christ want this power , or neglect the vse of it without sinne . And if any Church of Christ would neglect to vse this power against scandalous sin manifestly proved , and cōvinced , & would obstinately continue ( notwithstanding all good meanes vsed to the contrary ) this sower leaven vnpurged out , the whole lump were levened , and with leven might not the Passeover be eaten . And as the Church , if sin do arise , is first to endeavour the casting out of the sinne by the sinners repentance , and if that will not be , in the last place to cast out the sinne , and sinner together : so if the Church do wickedly bear out , and boulster iniquity amongst themselves , such as are faithfull are first to quit themselves of that Church-sin by testifying against it , and reproving it , and in the last place to quit themselves of the Church , if it remayn incurable . Now here you bring in certayn differences , & distinctions of separation , but without application . The first I omit as being before handled , so much as concerns the present purpose . The 2. difference is between the wicked remayning amōg the godly , & the godly being ▪ of the felowship of the wicked : this differece I acknowledg , & withall affirm , that the latter part of it notes out the estate of your nationall Church : wherein a few godly mynded in comparison , live in the fellowship of a wicked , and sinfull nation . And if persons excommunicate by the Church be not of her fellowship , then certaynly the number of the godly in your fellowship is very small : since your nationall Church representative , the convocatiō house ( whose Act also pag : 147. you avouch to be the Act of all the Church , & so to be accounted ) doth pronounce ipso facto excommunicated all that do affirm eyther the ceremonies of the Church , or goverment by Arch Bishops , Bishops , Deanes , Archdeacons , and the rest , to be Antichristian , or the bookes eyther of common prayer , or of consecrating Bishops , Preists , and Deacons , to conteyn in them any thing vnlawful , or repugnant to the word of God. Your third distinction I passe by as impertinent : and the fourth , as being already handled , saue onely that in the end of it you bite at vs , as you go , for separating frō Gods ordināces in the Church , for some wicked mens sake . But you know Mr B. that wee do not deem your Church-government , worship , ministery , and ministrations to be Gods ordinances : nor your Church in that confusion , wherein it was gathered , & consisteth , to be rightly possessed of the ordinances which it injoyes : no nor that any person how godly minded soever , can haue the right vse of Gods ordinances , in your assemblies , as they are publick joynt exercises of the communion of the body . In the fifth , and last difference , you speak of godly mens breaking society with themselves , bycause of some wicked persons . To which point I answer thus much ; since the L. Iesus hath given his Churches both power , and charge to put from among them such wicked persons , as do arise , and appear incorrigible ; and hath also taught by his Apostle , that the neglect of this duety levens the whol lump : that they which countenaunce , and continue in the Church such wicked persons against the godly zealous , which endeavour their reformation , that they I say , do break the society of the godly with themselves , and do rather make choise of the society of the wicked , whom they thus bolster , and bear out . In the 3. place we are to consider of the matter entreated of , and found fault with by the Apostle , 2 Cor. 6. which you say , is in summe thus much : beleevers are not to be with the wicked in their vnrighteousnes , in the state of their darknes , nor to partake with them in their evils , and so to agree together : which no way helps our separation from light , righteousnes , &c. It is true that the particular matter the Apostle findes fault with , is , the beleeving Corinthians communicating with the vnbeleevers in the idol feasts : but withall it must be considered , that the Apostle vpon this particular occasion delivers a generall doctrine , then which nothing is more vsuall both in the old , & new testament . The same Apostle in his former Epistle to the same Corinthians takes occasiō from the fornicatour among them , to forbid them the companying , or commingling not onely with fornicators , but with covetous persons , Idolaters , raylers , drunkards , extortioners , & all other wicked men whomsoever , ch . ● . 1. 11. so in this place , he takes occasion from their cōmunicating with Idolaters in the Idolathytes , and the vncleannes thence arising , to enjoyn them separation from all other vncleannes whether of persons , or things , as the whole tenour of the scripture manifesteth . More particularly : though the Apostle ( as you would haue it ) did onely forbid partaking with the wicked in their evils , yet even therein did he forbid all religious communion with them since their very prayers , and other sacrifices are their evils : wherein whylst the godly do communicate with them , what do they els but acknowledge their common right , and interest in those holy things ? But that the Apostle in this scripture forbids communion not onely in the evill works of wicked men , but with their persons : and that he commaunds a separation not onely reall , but personall , doth appeare by these Reasons . First , bycause the scripture hath reference to the yoaking of the beleevers with the vnbeleevers in mariage , as the occasion of that spirituall Idolatrous mixture , which he reproves . Now this ioyning was not in an evill , or vnlawfull thing , but with wicked , and vnlawfull persons . 2. The very terms , beleevers , vnbeleevers : light , darknes : Christ , Beliall , do import opposition not of things onely , but of persons also , for the things sake . So the faithfull are called * righteousnes , † light , & as they are light , so are the vngodly “ darknes : and so not onely their works but their persons are called . 3. The Apostle forbids all vnlawful communion in this place : but there is an unlawfull communion of the faithfull with the wicked , in things lawfull : as with excōmunicates , Idolaters , heretiques , or any other flagitious persons , in the sacraments , prayer , & other religious exercises in the respects formerly by me layd down : whervpon it was , that the Iewes were to separate themselves not onely from the manners of the heathen , but even from their persons . Ezra . 9. 1. 2. & 10. 2. 3 Nehem. 9. 2. & 10. 28. 30. and that Paul reproves the Corinthians , Epist. 1. Chap. 5. for having fellowship not in the persons incest , but with the incestuous person : whom therefore they were to purge out , & to put away from among thēselves . vers . 5. 7. 13. Fourthly , the Apostle enjoyns such a separation , as vpon which a people is to be reputed Gods people , the temple of the living God , & may chalenge his promise to be their God , to dwell amōg them , & to walk there . And as , for the temple , where the Lord promised to dwell , the tymber , and stones , whereof it was to be built , were to be selected , and separated from all the trees in the for●est , and stones in the rock , and to be hewed , and squared accordingly , and so to be set together in that comely order , which was prescribed : so , that this spirituall house , or temple , the Church now , may have the promise of Gods presence , and dwelling there , it must be framed of spirituall stones , and timber first separated from the rest , & then fitted and prepared by that ax , or sword of the spirit , the word of God , and so coupled , and combyned together in due order , and proportion . Besides , it is evident , that the holy Ghost hath reference in this place to the people of the Iewes , which was separated from all other peoples , and persons in the world : as appeareth , Lev. 20. 24. and 26. 11. 12. therein noting out what must be the course , and condition of the “ Israel of God to the worlds end . But here Mr Bern. excepts against our exposition of these places of Levit ▪ and the like , as miserably wrested , and falsly applyed to our separation . For by Gods separating them from other people , is meant , sayth he , a setting apart of Abrahams posterity to a speciall service of God , and therein to be a people differing from all the world . And by other people is meant such as worshipped not the true God ; which is nothing to them that worship Iesus Christ , &c. but no Israelites to separate from other Israelites , which were even then when Moses thus spake of separation , a corrupt people a●●●g themselves . And is this your righting of our wrestings Mr B ? Els-where you tell vs , that the Lord separates a people from others , and takes them to be his before he so much as commaund them any thing ▪ and here the Lord sets a people apart to be his , and separates them from others in respect of some special peice of service appointed them . The things you speak are contrary , but neyther of them true . The Lord never did , nor will take people vnto him , but by their submission , and obedience vnto his commaundements : and for that speciall † service of God enioyned the Israelites , it was an effect of their separation from other people , and covenaunt with God : and no cause by , or for which , they became the Lords separated people . We must alwayes consider the Church of God principally , and properly in the persons of men , and secondarily in their works : as we must first consider the “ vineyard in the trees , and afterwards in the fruites they bring forth . And so was Israel separated , and set apart from other people . Your addition , tha● by other people , is meant such as worshipped n●●●he true God , which is nothing to you which worship Iesus Christ , &c. and that there is no place to prove that Israelites were to separate from other Israelites , for their corruptions , as false matter , is like that which goes before . For first , Papists , and Anabaptists , with Idolaters , and Heretiques many mo , do worship Iesus Christ ; from whose societies notwithstanding you professe separation . 2. The Ismaelites , & Edomites , did worship the true God , though not after a true manner , and yet the Israelites were a people separated from them : so as an Edomite ( though he had voluntarily joyned himself to the people of God ) might not beare any publick office amongst them , to the third generatiō , which you too ignorātly expound ▪ pag. 248 ▪ of his admission into the Church . Yea I do further adde , that even Israelites , and those which came of Israel , or Iaakob , were cōmaunded to separate themselves from Israelites , and that for an vsurpation in the ministery , as the scriptures make it playn , Num. 16. as afterwards also vpon Ieroboams defection in the ministery , worship , & holy dayes , which he forged in his own hart . 2 Chron. 11. 13. 14. 15. 16. with ● King. 12. 28. 29. 30. 31. 32. And thus is the exposition cleared , against your frivolous exceptions of such scriptures in Levit : and els where as make mention of the separation of the Iewish nation from all other nations : which do fitly also serve to confirm , & justifie the separation of all the Churches in the new testament from such people and assemblies in all nations , as of whom the Lord by his revealed will cannot besayd to accept , as I am sure he cannot prophane , and godles persons . Now bycause ▪ the yssue of all controversies depends vpon the true exposition of the scriptures , whose letter men will bring on both sides : and that Mr B. takes speciall exception in this place against the expositions we give of such scriptures , as seem to vs most materiall for our separation : I wil therefore take in his exceptions , as I return whence I came , and make manifest , as God inableth me , the insufficiencie of them . The next place that comes into cōsideratiō is , Act. 2 ▪ 40. where , ●ayth Mr B. Peter speakes to the Iewes of such Iewes , as denyed Christ , & renounced the very foundation , even Iesus Christ , which is ( if we will beleeve him ) nothing to them that profesie him to be the true Messias . It seemes then that separation is not to be made from the Papists , for they hold I●sus Christ to be the true Messias , & the very foundation : yea even the merit of their works do they found vpon the merit of Christs obedience : derogating lesse in truth ( though far too much ) from thē vertue of his Preisthood , then you do in the constitution of your Church from the dignity of his kingdom in the outward government , & administration of it . 2. Your nationall Church is so farre from being separated from them , that deny Christ , as it is indeed , for substance , compact , and gathered of such ▪ to wit of impure , and prophane persons , who whatsoever they do professe ●● word do deny in deed , and visibly both “ God , and our Lord Iesus Christ , as the scriptures do expresly testifie . And to deny that apparant wicked and prophane men , or Churches , do rayse the foundation of religion , is a prophane errour , tending to libertiuism : and which foundeth all religion , and Christianity in the brayn , and nothing in the heart . Lastly Peters exhortation vpon the occasion in hand , was , that the faithful Iewes should separate from that froward generation : wherevpon the generall doctrine is rightly raysed , that the faithfull at all tymes must be separated from all froward generations . And of this duty wee are to make the greater conscience , considering the words of the Apostle , which are , that we save our selves from such froward generations : as indeed ( considering the duty we ow vnto our brethrē for their humbling , if they be froward in sinne ; the discomfort wee haue in continuing communion with them ; the want of that godly furtherance wee should haue by our brethren in our holy communion : and lastly the daunger wherein wee stand , eyther to be corrupted by them , or at least to haue our zeal , and other graces of God decayed in vs ) our salvation doth not a little consist in our departure from the assembly of the prophane , as Beza rightly notes vpon this scripture . Of the same nature with the former place is the next in order ; where the Apostle Paul both departs himself , & separates the disciples from such as were hardened , and would not obey , but spake evill of the way of the Lord before the multitude . Act. 19. 8. 9. But this , you say , proves not our purpose : and your exceptions are , First , that our way is not the way of God ; 2. that if is were , yet wee have not spoken to all your Church , & made it known to all , nor haue found all hard hearted : and 3. that the place teacheth separation from such obstinate wicked , which will not bee wonne to the Church : and that ▪ here is a departing of some true members of the Church , from such as be not the Church , but not of members of the true Church , forsaking mēbers of the true Church . That our way is the way of God , appeareth by this very scripture amongst many others : wherein also wee haue both the reformists at home , and reformed Churches abroad giving testimony with vs for the substance of it . But put the case ours be not , yet if the way of the reformed Churches be the way of God , our separation is justified by this scripture . For first , your convocatiō house & Church representative is hardened against the way of the reformed Churches , blaspheming , and persecuting it , and all them that eyther seek , or plead for it . And their act , being the cheif , is , by your own graunt , to be accounted the act of all , though the rest come not to consent : so that you are all , by your own words , to be acounted a disobedient , and hardened people , vpon the former praemises , namely , that the way of the reformed Churches , is the way of God. But howsoever it be eyther with vs , or them ▪ yet if that “ narrow way , whereof Christ speakes , that leads vnto life , be the way of God , then surely there are thowsands in your nationall Church , & many in every parish Ch : in the kingdom , which speak evill of the way of God , yea hate and persequute it to the vtmost of their power , and all them , that endeavour in any uprightnes to walk in it . Whereof you your self also Mr B. in former dayes haue had experience : though for the opposing , reviling , and persequuting of vs , you ▪ and they agreed well , & like Herod , & Pylate were made freinds . Now if wee separate from all them which thus disobey , and speak evill of the way of God , wee know too well , wee can have no cōmunion with any assembly in the Land. Lastly , you are greatly overseen in saying that Pauls separation was not from the Church , nor members of the true Church . It was from the Church of the Iewes , & the members of that Church with whom formerly he had held cōmanion , as the true Church of God ; which for this their disobedience , and vnbeleif , were broken off , and so afterwards in deed to be reputed . One scripture more remayns to be considered of , and that is Ioh : 17 ver . 6. 9. 14. 15. 16. whence wee beleeve , and confesse , that the true visible Church of Christ is gathered by separation from the world , and the men of the world visibly . Against this our exposition Mr B. excepts , and will haue this place vnderstood of the elect onely , that are ordeyned to life : & of invisible members : & of men as they are holy before God : rating vs , as egregious deceiptful abusers of this scripture , in applying it to the visible members , or Church . But most vniustly as appeares by these three playne reasons . First , bycause Iudas was one of them , whom the Father had given vnto Christ out of the world , whom alone of all them so given him , he had lost , that the scripture might be fulfilled . vers . 6. 12. whence it is evident to all men , that do not blinde their eyes , that Christ here speakes of such a donation , or gift , as was visible , or of such members as were visibly , and in respect of men separated , & sanctified from the world vnto God , and not at all of any invisible gift , or members . Secondly , Christ speaks of such persons as the world hated , bycause they were not of the world : ver . 14. but the wicked world doth not hate men , as they are elect before God , and invisibly , or inwardly separated , and sanctifyed , but as they are outwardly such , and so separated , whether they be inwardly so , or no. Lastly , Christ speakes of such a chusing out of the world , as he doth of a sending into the world , ver . 18. which sending as it was visible , and externall , so was the selection , and separation spoken of . And say not for shame , Mr B. that the visible Church of Christ is to be gathered , or consist of the men of the world visibly . The Church , and world are tvvo distinct , yea two contrary states , and bodyes , though the body of your nationall Church were at the first gathered , and hath over since consisted of the vvorld , and all . To conclude , this light man , being pressed by Mr Ainsworth in another place of his book vvith this scripture , both affirms , & proves by many reasons , that Christ here speaks of a mixt company , vvhich the elect are not . And hovvsoever his reasons be not onely vnsound , but indeed vngodly , vvherein he affirms Christ to haue been in respect of men the mediatour of Paul , vvhylst he continued a persequutour , and of others wicked in respect of men , yea of Pylate , and the soldiers , pagans , and infidels , bycause he prayed for them , ( vvhereas Christ prayer for them vvas no proper effect of his Mediatourship for his body , except vve hold vniversall redemption , and make the vvhol vvorld his body , but a most perfect demonstration of his love tovvards his enemyes , left also for a pattern vnto vs , to the worlds end ) yet do they , with that he there labours to prove by them , compared with his affirmation of the contrary , in this place , manifest his great both weaknes , and lightnes in the things he affirms . And thus I return to the exposition of 2 Cor. 6. and in it to prove , that the Apostles meaning is to forbid communion , and fellowship not onely with wicked works , but also with the wicked persons themselves that walk in them . For which purpose I do ad this one onely consideratiō : namely that the Prophet Isaiah ( from whom the Apostle borroweth this phrase , come out from among them , separate your selves , and touch none vnclean thing , and I will receive you ) doth not so properly speak of the departure , or separation , which the Preists were to make from the sinns of the Babylonians , as frō their coastes , and persons : thereby teaching all Christians , which are that spirituall house , and holy Preisthood , to offer vp spirituall sacrifices acceptable to God through Christ , 1 Pet. ● . 8. Rev. 1. 6. that their separation , and departure must be spiritually , as theirs was civilly , not onely from the sinnes of spirituall Babylonians , or other vnbeleevers , and vnclean persons , but even from their persons also , and from all personall communion with them . And as in the type , he that touched a dead man , or leper , or him that had an issue upon him , or other vnclean person , or was by him touched , was legally vnclean , & polluted , as well as he that touched , or was towched by any unclean thing whatsoever : Levit. 5. 7. 11. so in the thing typed , and truth , he that toucheth , or is touched by a man spiritually dead in sinns , or that hath an yssue of sinne , or spirituall leprosie running upon him , he is spiritually polluted and defiled . Now without touching cannot the numbers of the same body , and one of another possibly consist . But were it , as wee would haue it , that not onely the works , but even the workers of wickednes were to be avoyded for their works sake ▪ yet doth Mr B. take a double exception against our interpretation of this scripture . The former is , that it serves not our turn , except we prove them all to live in darknes , in vnrighteousnes , to be in league with the Divel . &c. I do answer , that if light and darknes , beleevers and vnbeleevers , Christ and Beliall , must haue no fellowship together , then must the beleevers , and they that are in Christ forbeare fellowship with all vnbeleevers , & men of Beliall , so continuing incorrigible : & if any beleevers , or Christians will notwithstanding still combyne with vnbeleevers , and godles men , it is their sinne thus to confound the order which God hath set in separating from the faithfull , with whom he hath joyned them , by joyning with the vnbeleevers , & vnfaithfull , from whom he hath † separated them ; yea I adde , in doviding Christ from himself , and vniting him with Beliall , & the Divill , in his members , what in them lyeth . To conclude , what reason hath Mr B. thus to obiect , that all which are amongst them , live not in darknes , and that all are not in league with the Divel , considring , that by his own exposition of this place , the very societies of Papists are to be left as no people of God , and yet all Papists live not in darknes , as here he vnderstands it , nor are in league with the divell : neyther in deed had they need , considering what league of spirituall cōmunion he professeth els where he will have with many of them . Mr B. 2. obiection , is , ( which he also makes the 4. head of his division ) that there is no proportion betwixt the persons here mentioned , to be separated from , being infidels , and such as were no members of the Church , and Gentiles , that had enterteyned no profession of Christ , on the one side : and the members of the Church on the other side : and that the consequence followes not from infidels , Heathens , Pagans , Idolaters , led by the Divell , to Christians professing Christ , though in life not answerable to their profession . Even now you justified separation from Papists by this scripture : and here you restreyn it vnto Infidels , and Gentiles , that had not enterteyned any profession of Christ : as though Papists were infidels , or without all profession of Christ , which is contrary both to truth , and to your own expresse affirmation * every where . But my answer is , that howsoever infidelity , and Idolatry be two greivous sinnes , and which do principally separate those which continue in them , from God , & his Church , yet not they alone , but any other transgressions as well as they , obstinately stood in , do rayse this vvall of separation : as is manifest in the scriptures . And first , the Apostle in this very place disioynes righteousnes & vnrighteousnes , light & darknes , as farre a sunder , as beleevers & vnbeleevers , as the temple of God & Idols : in which former also , the vnion betwixt Christ & Belial is as monstrous , as in the latter . Vnto which I do also adde , that Mr B. in this very place , debarring infidels , and idolaters from being matter of the true Church , layes this down as a cause , or reason , that they are led by the Divel : wherevpon it followeth , that since none other wicked men are led by Christ , but all by the Divell , aswell as they , that none other can be matter of the true Church , more then they . And that some persons led by the Divel should be matter of the Church , and some not , is a distinction not found in the scriptures , but devised for a remedy against the iniquities of the tymes , and for the avoyding of trouble , and dissipation . Secondly , as the scriptures do every where denounce the same judgements vpon other wicked men , and vpon idolaters , and infidels ; for example , that , as well he † that de●ileth his neighbours wife , or oppresseth the poore , or gives forth vpon vsury , shall dy the death , as he that eates vpon the mountaynes , or lifts vp his eyes vnto the Idols : and that aswell “ whoremongers , un●rtherers , and such as love , or make lyes ▪ as Idolaters , shal be without the heavenly Ierusalem : so do they also both warrant , & direct vs the same course of walking towards the one , and other . The Lord Iesus , Mat. 18. 17. enjoyns the Church to account every obstinate offender as an Heathen . And the Apostle Paul gives the Corinthians in charge as much to avoyd † form●atours , covetous persons , raylers , drunkers , and ●xtortioners , as Idolaters . And no marvayl , for * covetous persons are Idolaters ; and so are carnall men , Idolaters , making * their belly their God. Vnto these adde , that the same Apostle vnto ‘* T●tus calles vnholy , and profane persons ( what profession of God soever they make ) † unbeleevers , or Infidels , which are the same . Which scripture I wish the Reader to observe in respect of Mr B. bould ch●lendge of all the Brownists in the world to sh●w the term , or name of vnbeleevers to be given to such as are not become absolute Apostates from Christ. Lastly , unto that vvhich Mr B. ob●●●teth in the fifth , and last place against our exposition of this scripture to the Corinth : for our separatiō , namely that at this very tyme , when the Apostles thus writ , there were of them which did partake with the heathē that they were a mixt company , among whom were dissentions , envying , open incest , drunkennes at the Lords supper , fornication , wantonnes , men denying the resurrection , I do give this answer . As there was this mixture in the Church at this tyme , so doth the Apostle most severely reprove the same . For the incestuous man suffred vncensured , he pronounceth the whole lump levened , 1. Epist. 5. chapt : For th● abuse of the Lords supper , that they came together not with profit , but with hurt , chap. 11. 17. where I entreat the reader also to take knowledge of the counsayl , which vpon that occasion Beza gives in his Annotations vpon ver . 31. which is , that we try , and examine our selves , by faith , and repentance , separating our selves frō the wick●d . For this very sin here spoken of ▪ namely their partaking with Idols in the Idolothytes , that they could not partake of the Lords supper . “ You cannot drink the cup of the Lord , & the cup of Divels . You cannot be partakers of the Lords table , & of the table of Divels . And in this very place about which we now cōtend , that except they separated thēselves , & left this their vngodly mixture , they could not haue the promise of the Lord , that he would dwel among them , and walk there , & that he would be their God , and haue them his people , ver . 16. And doth the holy Ghost in leaving these things recorded give any countenance to a mixt company ? or can you from hence eyther take unto your self , or give unto others any comfort in your , or their confused walking ? Will you make your self a medicine of their poyson ? or a playster of their vlcers ? You are a physition of no val●w . Besides , it must be considered , that all the evils mentioned amongst the Corinthians were contrary to their constitution , and so many aberrations , and defections from that estate , and condition wherein the the Ch : was gathered . It is evident that Paul planted the Ch : at Corinth , he being Gods labourer , and it Gods husbandry . Now who dare open so prophane a mouth , as to affirm , that this faithfull labourer would plant the Lords vineyard with such imps , or gather vnto him a Church of any such slagitious persons , as fornicators , drunkers , incestuous men , or such as denyed the resurrection ? But what is this to your nationall Church , which was constituted , and gathered , for the greatest part , of fornicatours , drunkerds , blasphemers and the like ? with such wild branches was your vineyard planted . Thus much of our interpretation , & application of 2 Cor. 6. I will here onely adde one argument more to prove your nationall Church vncapable of the new covenant , or testament , by which you your self do graunt , and truely , the Church of Christ to be formed . The Prophet Ieremy spe●king in the name of the Lord , of the calling of the Gentiles into the new covenaunt , or testament , as the authour to the Hebrewes expoundeth him , testifieth , that with whom soever the Lord would make that † testament , or covenant , he would put his law in their mind , and write them in their heart , and so be their God , and make them his people : and that they should all know him from the least to the greatest , and that he would be mercifull vnto their s●●nes , and remember their iniquities no more . But your nationall Ch : never came within the cōpasse of this promise , that all in it should know the Lord , haue their sinnes forgiven them , and his lawes written in their heart . Therefore your nationall Church is not within the Lords covenaunt , nor ever 〈…〉 , nor his people having him for their God. Your exceptious in your 2. book to this Argument are insufficient . The first is , that by this exposition hypocrit●s should not be under the covenaunt , bycause the law of God is not written in their harts . But my answer is that hypocrites in respect of God and his secret , invisible , and approving will , and calling , are not of the Church , nor under the covenaunt : but in respect of men , & of the revealed will of God , according to which mē must judge , all that are outwardly holy , have their sinns forgiven , and the law of God written in their harts . And to your 2. exception , namely , that the place is not vnderstood barely of a member of the visible Church , but so of it , as withall he be an elect saynt , I do answer , it is true you say , ●ōsidering what bare members of the visible Church you make , & of what members your Church is most what made , even such as ar both bare , and empty of all grace , and appearance of grace . But let them be such in any measure , as of whom the Lord in his word gives approbation , and whom he entitles to the visible ordinances in his Church , and then they are not barely visible members , as you speak , but elect saynts also , in the respects formerly mentioned . It is evident that both Ieremy , and the Apostle to the Hebrewes speak of the new testament , or covenant of grace , whereof Christ is the mediatour in his own blood ; opposed to the old testament , and covenaunt of works established by Moses in the blood of bulles , and goates : and of the persons with whom the Lord makes this covenant , and which haue legacies in this will , and testament of Christ , which he hath also confirmed by his death : which do all know God , and have his law written in their harts , and their sinns pardoned . And there is nothing more derogatory to the grace of God , and blood of Christ , then that any within the compasse of this covenant of grace , or having a portion in this testament established in Christs blood , should not haue his iniquities forgiven , and his heart sanctifyed by the spirit , truely or in appearance , as he is truely or apparantly partaker of the former graces . And here also appears the vanity of your third exception so oft repeated by you , to wit , that you are not all without the law of God written in your harts , and without the forgivenes of sinnes , but that some of you have obteyned this grace . As though the quaestion were of some few in your Church , & not of the whole Church . If you minded what you had in hand , you should see , that to prove your Church within the covenaunt of the new testament , you were bound to manifest , not that some few , but that all the members of it were ( at the least in the constitution ) partakers , of those promises , wherein it is established : the reason is bycause not some few severally , but all the members joyntly considered , do make the Church . Iohn in * the Revelation describing the Locusts , sayth of them , that they had faces like the faces of men , & hayre like the hayre of women . Doth it therefore follow they were men , or womē , bycause they had eyes , mouthes , noses , & some other mēbers that men , & women haue ? So neyther is a profane people a true Christian Church , or body of Christ for some few Christianlike persōs v●tequally yoked with them , since the Church , or body , as I haue formerly sayd , consisteth not of some few but of all the members coupled , and combyned together in one communion . And thus much to prove that lewd & vngodly persons , so continuing , are uncapable of the new covenant , or testament consumed by the death of Christ : and that they haue no fellowship , or vnion with God in Christ , in whom alone he establisheth his covenant : and if any man will affirm the contrary , not I , but Iohn by the word of God , reproveth him expressely for * a lyar . And in deed what more impudēt untruth can there be affirmed , then that an apparant visible lim of Satan should be an apparant , or visible member of Christ , or that gracelesse persons should be within the covenant of grace , and salvation , as is that coven●●t into which the Lord gathereth , and in which he uniteth his Ch : vnto himself ? For conclusion of this point , let the reader observe , that as the Church is essentially constituted by this vnion of the mēbers with God , and one with another , so , consider it as an ecclesiasticall policy instituted by Christ the King thereof ; and then that form , or ord●r of government , which he hath set , and which the Apostolik Churches vsed , and enjoyed , is the form of it : as it is in all other po●ici●s , corporations , and cōmon wealthes in the world . Which form of government the Church of England is so far from enjoying , a● it hates worse then Papists all that in any measure desire it . Now as from the matter , & form of the Church concurring do arise the properties , so would Mr B. in the next place iustify against us , that the congregations amongst them have the true visible properties of the Church , which he makes three in number : the first , their continuance in he●●●ng of the d●●h me of Christ re●r●ved , and vsing of the sacraments , and prayer . 2. the holding out of this truth , and the sacraments , as banners displayed against the enemy . 3. a care for the welfare of all , and every one for the whole , and each for other : though in his “ 2. book ( as if it ●ad not been he ) 1. the h●ldin● out of the profession of the person covenāted with , Christ Iesus : 2. the holding the words of the covenant● , the written w●●● of God : 3. the m 〈…〉 ng of the publication of this covenant by the 〈◊〉 and 〈…〉 the assemblies , are become the properties of the Church : as if the Church were as chaungeable in her properties , as 〈◊〉 in his . And here I must needs take knowledge of Mr B. distinction in his ▪ 2. book betwixt the properties and priviledges of the Church , and the rather , bycause he layes it down with great ostentation for our learning , as he sayth . His distinction is , that properties arise from within the Church , and priviledges from without : and my learning frō his distinctiō is , that he vndertakes to teach others , where he hath not yet learnt himself . His errour then is in the too streyt acceptiō of the term property , which he should take in a larger sense , as Mr Smyth hath rightly taught him : namely that , whatsoever is proper vnto a person , or thing ( whether within , or without ) and not common to other things , or persons with him , or it , that is a property , or property of that person , or thing . And so since all the priviledges wherewith Christ hath endowed his Church , are proper , and peculiar vnto the Church , and not common to her with the world , it is most evident , they are all of them the Churches properties , and so to be accounted , though she may for a tyme want the actuall vse of many of them . And even those priviledges , which your self bring for instances , are true properties of the Church : as to be called saynts , faithful , elect : to suffer for Christ : to be the ark to keep the books of the covenant : to set to the seales : to vse the keyes to open , & to shut heaven : then which what can be more proper or peculiar vnto the Church ? And it is strange that sayntship , and holynes , grace to suffer for Christ , and the like should not be accounted more naturall propertyes of the Church , then a prophane profession of faith and vsurpation of some ordinances of religion by lewd , and vngodly persons . But towching the properties of the Church by you layd down , my answer is , that except your nationall Church be that true Israell of God , which he hath admitted joyntly , and severally into the covenant & fellowship of grace , & salvation , and to whom he hath given the promises of that covenant , and to whom by his revealed will the seales , and sacraments for the confirmation of those promises , do apperteyn , the more you meddle with this covenant by professing or publishing it , the more you take Gods name in vayn ; and the more of the ordinances of God , & his covenant , you vse , and injoy , the more you abuse , & vsurp : & the longer you continue in so doing , the more dangerous is your estate , & the more to be bewayled . And for the things themselves by which you would haue the Ch : of Christ distinguished from all other assemblies , they are such , as may in the outward ceremony , and observation of them , without any sanctifyed vse ( which is the point in controversy between me and you ) both be performed , and continued in , eyther for feare , or fashion by any accursed conventicle of atheists , murderers , adulterers or the like ; yea by a company of men , and women excommunicated for these , & the like trāsgressions . And can these things which ly thus in comō to all , be the true properties of the Church ? 2. I must be bould to tell you Mr B. that the holding out of the truth , & sacraments are not so properly the displayed banners of your Church , as is the observation of your popish ceremonies . The surplise is a banner far broader displayed then the preaching of the gospel , or ministration of the sacraments ; the crosse is a standard higher advanced then baptism ; so is kneeling , then the Lords supper : without th●se neyther the word may be preached , nor the sacraments administred , but where these banners are set vp , and fayre borne , there is that which is required , & will serve the turn , though there be very litle truth held out , eyther by preaching , knowledge , or obedience , but the contrary . Lastly , where speaking of the marks , and tokens of the true Ch : you will the reader to observe well , that they are not the word truely preached , nor the sacramēts rightly administred : but the true word preached , and the true sacraments administred ▪ I cannot but observe it well , and in it , both your errour , and lightnes . In your litle † catechism printed 1602. you demaund this quaestion ▪ What are the marks of the true Church here on earth ? to which your answer is , amongst some other things : Christs word truely preached , and his sacraments rightly administred . But now in your Separatists schism , not the word truely preached , * but the true word , nor the sacraments rightly administred , but the true sacraments are the infallible , and convertible marks , and tokens of the Ch : in the iudgement of ill the divines at home , and in all the reformed Churches in Christendome . Now that which I observe hence is , that Mr B. is one in his catechism , where he labours with good conscience to instruct his people in the knowledge of God , and another in his Invective , headily begun , and unconscionably prosequuted . In the former he endeavoured with good conscience to lay down the grounds of Christian religion : but now considering that the Christian grounds there layd will not beare the Antichristian confused building , which he is to defend in his latter book , he chuseth rather to rase his former Christian foundations , and to lay new , & those contrary , then to leave one stone of Babell vndawbed with his vntempered morter . Now for the point it self let the reader obserue these few particulars . First , that rightly , and truely in preaching , and administration , are by Mr B. very ignorantly restrayned to the holy graces of the Church : for which , right , and lawfull persons by , and to whom these administrations are to be made , are required . And are persons graces , Mr Bernard ? 2. It is not true you affirm , that all divines hould the true word , and true sacraments ( though not truely nor rightly administred ) the infallible tokens of the Church . I do not remember that ever I read this phrase the true word before , in any wryters . Such as write of these things are generally against you , as you are against the truth . Your own articles of religion condemn you , which make it a property of the Church to haue the sacraments duely administred . And since the word , and sacraments are divine ordinances instituted by the Lord for certayn ends , and purposes , and determined to circumstances of persons , as by , & to whom they must be administred , it is necessary wee measure , and defyne them by the manner of ministration : otherwise wee make them but as the charmes of wizards , or at the best , as the prayers of Papists , which they account true , if so many words be sayd over by whomsoever , or howsoever . The word of God may be , and oft times is , in a great measure preached , or published vpon a stage ; and what if the sacraments should be added to it , were here a true Church marked out ? And as the word , and sacraments may be sacrilegiously vsurped by them which are no Church of Christ , nor haue any right at all vnto them , so may the true Church of Christ be for a time without them , though never without spirituall right vnto them ; as in the tyme of some great plague , when the Church dare not assemble , or of persequ●tion , when it is severed eyther by bonds , or ●light . It doth not then cease to be a Church , no nor a visible Church neyther . It remayns visible in it self though it be not actually seen , or open to the ey of all ( as you speak ) as colours are alwayes visible , and soūds audible in themselves , though for the present they be neyther seen nor heard . But what do I striving with this man , which needs none other adversary but himself ? As he crosses his first book with his second : so doth he both crosse , and confute his second by his third . In his first , he will haue the word truely taught , and the sacraments rightly administred to be the marks of the true Church : in his 2. the true word preached though not truly , & the true sacramēts administred though not rightly , are in●allible tokens , and reciprocally converted with the Church : in the 3. & last book , † the Church may be a Ch : without the vse of the sacramēts for a long tyme , as the Ch : of Israel was in the wildernes , so it be not done of contempt : and such as are eyther no Church of God at all , or an antichristian assembly , may haue , and vsurp the seales put to a blank as Ismael , & Esau out of the Church had circumcision , and the Papists now have baptism . And that which he sayth of Baptism , may as truely be sayd in cases , of the word , and the publication of it by reading , and interpretation . As the true Church may for a time want the vse of both , so may a false Ch : vsurp , and abuse both , as well the wryting , as the seal . ' * He that held the seven starres in his right hand , and walked in the middest of the seven golden candlesticks , threatned the Church of Ephesus , that he would shortly remove her candlestickout of his place , for leaving her f●rst love , except she repented , though she still held and vsed the word , and sacraments : and if a company of schismatiques leaving a Church without cause , or of excommunicates justly cast out of the Church should vnite themselves together , vsurping and assuming the word , and sacraments , and professing the covenant outwardly , and in the letter , did this their ●old vsurpation make them a true visible Church of Christ ? The matter is , the true Church may want vpon occasion the vse , or administration of the word , and sacraments , but never the right , power , and interest in , and vnto them : so may a false assembly vsurp o● assume them , but never have right or power from Christ unto them . And this spirituall power , and liberty arising from the Lords visible covenaunt , to communicate , and partake in the visible promises , & ordinances of it , is the true essentiall propertie of the visible Church : as is the faculty of reasoning the property of a reasonable man , and the faculty of seing , hearing , tasting , and the like , the property of a sensible creature ; though neyther the one haue the actuall vse of reason for the present , nor the other of sense . The third , and last property of the Church Mr B : makes , the care for the welfare of all , and every one for the whole , and each for other : & this eyther corporall for the maintenance of the body , as in almes deeds . Act. 2. 42. or spirituall touching the sowle , which standeth in admonition , and exhortation , and so ●orth , as 1 Thes. 5. 11. which also he sayth they , and their congregations have . It is noted of some persons beside themselves , that all the ships they see in the haven , and fayr houses in the country , they think , and say , are theirs : where if they were in their right witts , they would both know and acknowledge , that they were poore , and beggarly , and had nothing . So is it with this man , bycause he reads in the scriptures , that the Apostolicall Churches consisted of saynts ; and were gathered by voluntary profession , into the covenant of God ; that they had given them , and did enjoy by the Lords gift , and donation , his word , sacraments , & other ordinances ; and did in that holy communion , whereunto they were called , exercise themseves mutually for the welfare one of another both bodily , and spiritually : therevpon he concludes peremptorily that the Church of England , whereof he is , and for which he pleads , hath all these things : and that they haue all these properties : where if he had a sound mind , and an honest heart in the things of God , he would both see & confesse , that things were nothing lesse with them , then as he sayth ; and that in stead of this great and vniversall aboundance , whereof he boasteth , there were generally nothing but spirituall beggary , and want . “ Thou sayest I am rich , and increased with goods , & have need of nothing , & knowest not how thou art wretched , and miserable , and poor ▪ and blind , and naked . More particularly ; as you want the office of Deaconship , which Christ hath left by his Apostles for the collection , and distribution of the Churches almes , and haue enterteyned under the true name , a false , and forged office of half preisthood , perverting and misapplying to the iustification of it , such holy scriptures , as are left for the calling , and ministration of true , and lawfull Deacons in the Church of Christ : so is there not that care for the bodily welfare one of another amongst you in any measure , whereof you boast . The needlesse , and endlesse suits , and quarrels amongst you filling all your courts , and judgement seats ; your dayly thefts , and murthers amongst the members of your Church ; the continuall cousenings , and circumventions one of another ; the vsuryes , oppressions , extortions , which overflow both country and city , as did the waters in the time of Noah , both the valleys , & hilles , do too manifestly shew how farre you are from this care of the welfare ech of other bodily , whereof you thus vainly boast . But though this care of ech for other , both bodily and spiritually , be almost wholly wanting , yet ( say you ) the Church is not to be iudged a false Church , no more then the houshould is to be iudged a false houshould , bycause there is not that care that ought to be amongst them of the family : or a man a false man if through folly , madnes , or wilfulnes , he neglects the welfare of his body . Surely it had not need , considering how not onely this is wanting , but how the contrary aboundeth in all places . And to let passe all other matters , no man is ignorant what care the two great factions in the Church , that of the Prelates , and the other of the Reformists do take , each for other , namely how ech may subvert , and root out the other . And for your similitudes borrowed from an houshold , and a body , as wee deny your Church to be † that houshold of God , or body of Christ , wherein every member hath his effectuall working , in his measure , as the Apostle speaketh , so is there no way the like reason of them , and of the Church , in the respect , wherein you compare them . A man doth not , nor cannot cease to be a true man naturally by any meanes , if his person survive : neyther can a family cease to be a true family civily , if it be not dissipated and dissolved : but a Church though the same persons survive still , and combyne together , as they did , may cease to be the true Church of Christ : and may eyther become no Church by forsaking all profession of Christianity , or a false Church by holding , and professing themselves stil Christians , & in fellowship with God through Christ , when being considered by the revealed will of God , and testament of Christ , they are in truth & in deed , neyther the one , nor the other . And considering what * Iohn sayth , that he which loveth not his brother , and so consequently cares not for his welfare which issueth from the former , as the stream from the spring , is not of God , nor of his children , but of the children of the Divel ; and withall , that you your self right now did place the form , & covenant of the Church in a great measure , in the manifestation , and testimony of love in the members each to other , and so consequently of care ech for the welfare of other , I see not how that Church can be accounted the houshould of God consisting of his children by the word of God , or the body of Christ vnited & coupled together of his members , by your owne doctrine , where this love of , and care for each other is visibly , and outwardly wanting . But to passe over all other things , the point vpon which Mr B. insists , and which he would most gladly fasten vpon the reader , is , that the power of the censures , and of excommunication , termed by the name of discipline , howsoever it be a thing necessary for the wel being of the Church , yet is it no essentiall property , nor of such necessity , but that a true Church may be without it . And this ( wanting scriptures , or reasons to confirm it ) he affirms again , and again , and in the end , illustrates by a similtude taken from a man who is not therefore a false man , though he can neyther see , nor g●e , nor speak . It is recorded of one THEODOTIVS , that having denied Christ in persequution , to lessen his sin , he went about to lessen Christ , and taught that he was mere man , and not God : so many , in the case of Christs government , that their own and other mens sinne may seem lesser , in not vsing , or submitting vnto it , do labour to extenuate , and make it lesse excellent , or vsefull then it is : and therevpon one telles vs it is not a part of Gods worship , nor of religion ; another that it is a thing indifferent , arbytrary , & changeable ; a third that it is not simply necessary for the true Church : as Mr B : in this place . The vnsoundnes of whose affirmation , & illustration , I will by and by manifest , the Lord assisting me ; in the mean while I do desire the reader to observe with me these two things in his writings about this point . The former is , that , in labouring thus earnestly to perswade ( as here he doth ) that the power of excommunication is not of simple necessity , he in effect graunts that , which all men know to be true , namely , that the Churches in England do want this power ▪ Now if here he answer , as he doth in his " 2. book , that , though the power of excommunication ●e not in every parish , yet it is in the Church of England in which is comprehended all pa●rishes , and all superiour power over these Parishes , in which is the power of Christ , I reply these particulars . First that he might thus answer , though one Bishop alone had engrossed into his hands all this power ; yea a Papist might answer thus for the Popes sole authority over all the Churches in the world , yea though he should communicate the same with no other person , or persons . 2. Let this mans shifting be well noted . When both in this , and the other book he pleads for the Ministery in the Church , he passes by the Nationall , Provinciall , and Diocesan Ministery , and speaks onely of the Ministery in some parishes , where some honest zealous preachers are , but now comming to plead for the power of Christ in the Church , he takes the contrary course , and passing by the parishes , takes his flight to the Nationall , Provinciall , and Diocesan Ministery there to find comfort . 3. the quaestion here as he himself puts it , pag. 125. of this book is about particular congregations , which , he sayth , there are with them , having true matter , true form , and true properties . whereof excommunication is one . To this also adde , that in the end of his book he a●oucheth the Ministers affirmation , that this power is given to the particular congregations in the land . 4. & lastly , I haue formerly manifested , from Mat. 18. & 1 Cor. 5. that this power , and praerogative is given to a particular congregation , ( besides which the new testament acknowledgeth none other visible Church : ) and if that one particular * Church , or congregation a● ▪ Corinth gathered together into the name of the Lord Iesus Christ , had the promise of his presence , and that he would be in the m●ddest of them , and were by this power of the Lord Iesus Christ , to deliver to Sat●n , purge out , iudge , and put away wicked men from among them ( for fayling in which duety , they were reproved by the Apostle ) then why not every other particular Church or congregation of Gods people , as well as that one ? espetially since that , as all other scriptures , was written for our learning ; and that there is but † one Church , or body , as there is but one Lord : one , that is , in matter , form , and essentiall properties . The 2. thing I desire may be noted , is , that Mr B : doth if not deceiptfully , yet vnfitly comprehend the power of the censures vnder the care for the welfare of the Church : since this power may be full and intire , where the care is eyther very little , or not at all : as it came to passe in the Church of Corinth , which had this power alwayes amongst them , but neglected the vse of it , and therein the care for the welfare of the Church which they should have had , & for which neglect they were reproved by the Apostle . Now for the similitude , I do except against it in a double respect : first for that God doth oft times deprive a man of the naturall power of seing , going , and speaking , by naturall infirmities within , or bodily violence from without : but Christ never deprives his Church of this spirituall power of excommunication , neyther can it be impeached by any outward violence : onely Antichrist exalting himself against all that is called God , and intruding himself into the throne of Christ , doth deprive the Church of God , and of Christ , of this liberty , and power ; and so all those Churches , or congregations over whom he thus vsurpeth , receive his mark , & are in that respect subject to his judgement . 2. Mr B : as I have formerly observed , doth most vnaptly cōpare the power of casting out offenders to the faculty of seing , speaking , and the like : it is more fitly resembled to the want of power to void , and purge excrements , which is prodigious in nature ; & so neyther the naturall , nor spirituall body so constituted can possibly consist , or live . And for the parts of the body , to which he here hath reference , and the like ; they do more fitly resemble the officers of the Church , then the ordinance of excōmunication : the eyes , and mouth the Bishops , and Elders , which are to oversee , and teach the Church : the hands , the Deacons , who are to distribute her almes . And a● there may be a true ( though an vnperfit ) naturall body without these parts , so may there be a true visible Church , or body of Christ , without these officers , though vnperfect , and defective . It now remayns I lay down some reasons to prove the power of the censures , & of excommunication , simply necessary vnto the Church of Christ. The Reasons are , First , bycause it is simply necessary for the being of a Church , that there be power for true members to joyn together , and so to receive others vnto them : even so consequently must there be power to disioyn , and cut of false members . 2. Excommunication , and absolution are of the same nature with preaching the gospel : yea the very same , particularly applyed to persons obstinate , and repentant , which preaching is in the generall . The † preaching of the gospell is the power of God vnto salvation to every one that beleeveth : excommunication is * the power of the Lord Iesus Christ , for the destruction of the fl●sh , of him that is otherwise incorrigible , that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Iesus . The preaching of the gospel makes the first , or major proposition thus ; he that beleeves not , and repents not , is bound in heaven , and hath his sinn● vnremitted ; but he that beleeves , and repents , his sinn● are pardoned , and he loosed in heaven . Now excommunication , and absolution applyed to a particular person , and occasion , do make the second , or minor proposition thus : thou beleevest not , or repentest not of this thy sinne , and therefore thou art bound in heaven , and thy sinnes vnpardoned : and so of absolution , or the loosing of sinns . Adde also vnto these things , that the same Bishops , or Elders are to preach the gospel in way of doctrine , and to minister the censures in way of discipline , though in some divers order , as I haue formerly shewed . And these two being the two mayn duties of the Ministers , comprehended vnder this generall duety of “ feeding the stock , must needs be of the same nature : both of them mayn , and necessary parts of Gods vvorship , and of religion , and so to be performed vpon the Lords day , as his work , and in the assembly of the saynts , as an exercise of their holy communion , howsoever with you , and others , they are made a consistory , and working day matter , to the great violation , and indignity of the kingdom of Christ , in the dispensation of it in his Church . 3. The want of excommunicating and censuring wicked men † levens the whole lump : and makes the whole particular congregation whereof they are , accessary to their sinne : and to purpose to continue in such a congregation , or Church , as hath not this power , is to purpose to continue in disobedience to the commandement of the Lord Iesus which he hath layd vpon all his disciples to “ tell the Church in the order by him prescribed . 4. Without the censures , the Church * becomes of Syon , Babylon , even the habitation of Divels , and the hold of all ●owl spirits , and a cage of every vnclean , and hatefull byrd . And so Mr B. in his forenamed † catechis●●● teacheth that the holy , and right vse of discipline , and of excommunication serves to maint●yn the Church , and to over throw haeresy , that destroyes the foundation , and other mischiefs . And since haeresy destroyes the foundation , as Mr B. teacheth ; and that “ there must be haeresies in the Church , as Paul teacheth : and that the Church cannot possibly be purged of them , without excommunication ; that must needs be absolutely necessary to the Church , without which the Church must absolutely necessarily come to naught . To these I do adde , as a fifth , and last Reason , that as † the glorie of God , & salvation of them without , are most furthered , and advantaged by the holy conversation of the members of the Church : and on the contrary most disadvantaged , and hindered , by their vnholy , and prophane courses : so is the power of excommunication , by which solemn ordinance alo●e , prophanenes & impiety are rooted out , of absolute necessity for the Churches of Christ. And of this point I desire the reader to take knowledge , not onely as of a matter of truth , but of conscience also , and for practise . That which Mr B : reputes our nynth errour , is our holding all their ministers false Ministers . As I have formerly sayd of your Churches , so say I here of your ministers : that if one be false , all are : for all are of one constitution . In deed Mr B : if he might be let alone , would save himself much labour this way , by restreyning his defence to some few of the most able , and conscionable men excluding the rest : and therefore in his former book , he speaks of such ministers , as God hath “ furnished with gifts to discharge their functiō : with holy graces : & a blamelesse lif● : and in his 2. book , he desires to * be vnderstood of such as are sent of God , and set over congregations , according to the truth , and true meaning of the lawes , and book of ordination . In which he doth directly exclude the Archbishops , Bishops , Suffragans , Deanes , Archdeacons , Chauncelours , Commissaries , and with them , all pluralists , non-residents , vnpreaching , and prophane ministers . For some of these are not set over congregations at all , but over Provinces , & Diocesse : others not in respect of their offices above named : and others , though they be set over particular Churches , yet haue they neyther gifts , nor graces for their function . But as he were nothing faythfull vnto a city , that vndertaking the defence of it , should p●ck out here and there a corner most strong , and defensible , and fortify there , leaving the body of the city to the invasion , & spoyl of any that would assault it : so neyther is Mr B : faythfull to the Ministery of England , who pretending the defence of it against vs , calls out here and there a man , whom he will iustifie , and leaves the body , and all the principall members of it vndefended . And here I would demaund of him why he doth not as well defend all the Ministers , in this place , as he did even now defend all the people , or why a Minister so called , though vnapt to teach , and of a prophane life , is not as well a true , though a bad Minister : as a Christian so called , being ignorant , and of a lewd conversation , a a true , though a bad Christian ? There is one and the same reason of both : though Mr B : have more reason for to plead the one then the other , considering his own standing . If he should plead for the ignorant , and prophane Ministers , he should deprive himself of all arguments for the justification of the preaching , & more conscionable sort : for he rayseth them all , as the reader may see in both his books , from their gifts , and aptnes to teach , from their holy graces , their painfull and zealous preaching , their suppressing of Popery , and conversion of soules , with other the like effects of the truthes of the gospel published , and taught by them : which things since he dares not affirm of the scandalous , & vnpreaching Preists , he cunningly passeth them by as some small moat faln into the Church , by the covetousnes of † Much-wormly patrons , but contrary to the true meaning of the lawes : and without the least default of the Bishops , or Archbishops : as though the covetous Patrons could present them , except the vngodly Bishops had first ordeyned them . If he had undertaken the justification ( but as true , though not as good ) both of the vnpreaching , and preaching Ministers , he must have sought , and produced such Arguments as would haue agreed to both ; but finding himself able to make no shew at all for the ignorant , idle , and scandalous sort , having no colours to paynt , no morter to dawb over those filthy stones , no not to any shew , he smothers all them , though far the greater both in number , and authority , and in deed the almost onely true formall ministers ( according to the Church canon , and constitution ) and presents to the reader a few dispersed , disgraced , tolerated , and tolerating persons , and vndertakes their defence : manifesting himself a right naturall “ merchant of that great whore , in shewing some handfull of tolerable wares , thereby to deceive the simple buyer with the whole peice , or heap of rotten stuffe , which goes with them . Now on the contrary if Mr B. should not haue defended men of lewd conversation , as true visible matter of the Church and members of Christs body , he could not haue justifyed with any colour , the Nationall , Provinciall , Diocesan , and Parish Churches , or any one of them , as true ; since they were all at the first collected , and do still consist , for the greatest part , of such people , and so disposed . He therefore takes liberty vnto himself to make such defence , and for so much of his Church , and Ministery , as will serve his turn amongst the deceived multitude , and of no more . But the mayn point in this place , & about this matter in hand , to be considered of , is , whether ability to preach be a qualification , and so preaching a work , necessarily required in the ministery of Engl : according to the true meaning of the lawes ecclesiasticall , & civil , and the book of ordination . This Mr B. takes for graunted affirmatively , and vpon it as a mayn ground builds his whole treatise about this matter : but I on the contrary do affirm , that this is ( & so is known to be to all that mind it , with wisdom , & good conscience ) cleane otherwise : and that neyther this ability , nor practise of preaching is of necessity required to the true , and naturall constitution of the English ministery , in the meaning of the lawes established in that case . And for the confirmation of that I affirm against this mans presumptuous asseveration , these proofs suffice . First , the books of Homilies published , and confirmed by law , to be read of such ministers as cannot preach , do evidently declare , that ability to preach , is not necessarily required of all , in the true meaning of the law . 2. By the statute law of the land , and in particular by one statute enacted for the prevention of vnworthy ministers ( though wanting the book , I cannot set down the title , tyme , or order of it ) he that is eyther a Bachilour of arts in one of the Universities ; or can give an account of his faith in latin : or hath been brought vp in a Bishops house ; ( though he haue been his porter , or horsekeeper ) or hath a gift in preaching , is capable of orders , and may be by the Bishop ordeyned a minister : so that by the expresse letter , and playn meaning of the law aptnes , and ability to teach is not necessarily required in the English ministery . If he haue any one of the three former qualifications , the law approves of him ; and being ordeyned , the Patron may present him to any congregation in the land , whom the Bishop also must institute , the Archdeacon induct , and the people receive ; and may be therevnto compelled , whither they will , or no. Adde vnto these , that your canons , and constitutions , framed by the convocation house , and confirmed by the Kings royall assent , & so being the lawes ecclesiasticall of your Church , & by your doctrine Mr B. the Act of all the Church , though the inferiours come not to consent , do not onely approve an vnpreaching Ministery , but also lay deep curses , and Anathemaes vpon all that deny eyther the truth or lawfulnes of it . To this also I might annex that it is a very common doctrine with your Prelates , and their Chaplins , and faction , that † preaching is no necessary annexum , or appurtenance vnto Orders , which they also offer to defend against all gainsayers . But it seems you haue speciall reference to the book of ordination : let vs therefore see what it makes for you , or your purpose . That you build vpon , I know , i● these words of the Bishop , when he orders his Preist ; and delivers him the Bible in his hand . Take thou authority to preach the word of God , and to minister the holy sacraments in this congregation , where thou shalt be so appointed . The words I hear , and acknowledge , but the true meaning of the book I deny it to be , that every Minister should be able to preach . It may as wel be sayd , it is the meaning of the book , that that every Preist should be ordeyned in the particular congregation , where he is to minister , bycause of the latter words in this congregation , where thou shalt be so appoynted : and that he is to minister the discipline of Christ , as well as the doctrine and sacraments , bycause such words passe betwixt him , and the Bishop in another place of the same book . It is not the least delusion of Sathan , or mistery , that such formes of good wordes are reteyned both in the Romish , & English Church , without any truth eyther of purpose or practise in those which vse them : for by them the eyes of the simple are easily bleared by such deceivable merchants , as right now I spake of : though it be not without a speciall providence of God , that these , & the like forms of words should be vsed , for the more full conviction , and condemnation of them that chuse to be deceived , as I have formerly noted in this book . To conclude this poynt . The reading of the service book , in form , and maner , the celebrating of mariage , churching of women , burying of the dead , conformity , and subscription , are more essentiall to your ministery , and more necessarily requyred by the lawes of your Church both civil and ecclesiasticall , then preaching of the gospel is . The wearing of the surplice , and signing with the crosse in baptism are of absolute necessity , without partial dispensation , yea I may ad violation of oath by the Bishops : whereas preaching of the word is no such necessary , or essentiall duety , but a work casuall , accessory , and supererrogatory , which may be done or vndone , as the minister is able , or willing , without any such absolute necessity , as is here pretended . Herevpon then it followeth , that since the preaching of the gospel is no necessary part , or property of the office of ministery , in the Church of England , that that ministery cannot be of Christ : as also that the conscionable and effectual preaching of some men is no iustification at all of the office , which may , and doth consist essentially without it , and to which it is but casual , & accidentall ; but a commendation of the persons , which , besydes the natural , and necessary parts of their office , do so practise and preach . And this consideration alone might suffice for answer vnto all Mr B. proofs for the legitimating of the ministery in the Church of England : yet will I for the further discovering of them ( considering the confidence wherwith he propounds them ) descend to the particulars . In his former book he layes down , and proves by the scriptures these three sound , and mayn grounds touching the ministery . 1. that the Lord onely ordeyns offices in his Church . 2. that he distinguisheth them one from another , that one may not intrude into an others office . 3. that he onely prescribes the dutyes to be done in every distinct office , and so in the fourth place he comes to the qualification and gifting of men for their functions , and so proceeds to other particulars . But observe his dealings : when he comes to apply , and compare the ministery of England to , and with these golden rules , and by them generally and truely propounded , to iustify it in the particulars , he passeth them all by in silence , as if he had vtterly forgotten them , and speaks not one word , eyther of the offices themselves , or of the distinction of them one from another , or the duties to be done in them ; but comes in the very first place to the guifts , and graces of the persons . And in so doing ( like the vnrighteous steward ) he doth wisely , though nothing lesse then faythfully . He knowes wel , that he cannot fynd in the scriptures the least colour for the offices of Archbishops , Bishops , Suffragans , Deanes , Arch-deacons , halfe Preists , or Engl : Deacons : nor that the dutyes of celebrating marriage , purifying women , burying the dead , reading the service book in manner , and form , are layd vpon the ministers of the gospel , as dutyes to be done in their offices : nor that the Provinciall , and Diocesan officers may intrude into their office , which are set over particular congregations , and deprive them of the power of government ; nor the Deacons to administer the sacramēts : nor that any of them may intrude into the office of the civil Magistrate ( as they all do lesse or more ) in medling with matters of mariage , divorce , testaments , or with iniuryes , as they respect the body , or outward man , according to your , and other m●ns exposition of Math. 18. making ministers Magistrates , and E●ders in the Church , Elders in the gates . These things he knew , and therefore cōming to speak of the ministery in England , and to apply these general rules to their particular estate , he not so much as once mentions eyther the diversity of offices in the Church ; or their distinction one from another : or the several dutyes to be done in them , least in naming them , he should ( as it could not have been otherwise ) have condemned that thing , which he would so gladly iustify . And this I desire the Reader to note not onely against him , but specially against the Ministery he pleads for . His Arguments to prove the Ministers of England : true Ministers of Christ , follow in order . The first is because they are not Ministers of Antichrist : and that he would prove by 4. Reasons . 1. by their doctrine , and oath against him . 2. because they shew no obedience vnto him . 3. because Antichrist himself disclaimeth them , as no Ministers , & condemneth them , as haeretiques 4. because Antichrists Ministers are sacrificing and m●ssing Preists , which they are not . Here Mr B. ( had he done faithfully ) should have cleared our Arguments , by which in sundry treatises published for that purpose , we have proved them in respect of their offices , entrances , & administratiōs , the Ministers of ātichrist : but thinking it easyer to strike , then to fence , he passeth by what we have written against them , & layes down certeyn colourable reasōs for them : which I have summarily set down in order : and vnto which I return this answer . First and generally , that there is one common errour in all his Arguments : namely , that there is no Antichrist , but that great Antichrist the Pope : as though there were no more Divils but Beelzebub , because he is the cheif of the Divils . I would know of this man , what he thinks of the clergy in King Hen. 8 dayes , that took the oath of supremacy , and taught against the Pope , opposing him , & being opposed by him : or what he thinks of the Lutheran Ministers , that disclaym the Antichrist of Rome as haereticall , and are disclaymed by him , & yet do abhor from the reformed Churches , and from al cōmunion with them , for the mayn truthes they hold , touching the sacrament , and predestination . The thing then is , that there are degrees of Antichristianism , & orders of Antichrists , that is of such as are adversaries vnto Christ. In Pauls time that “ man of sin , & adversary was got into the temple of God : and in Iohns time † many Antichrists were come into the world : and yet there was then neyther Pope , nor masse preist ; no nor Diocesan or Provinciall Prelate neyther . There was in deed * Diotrephes , who sought for praeheminence , & to rob the Church of † the power of Christ , and so was an Antichrist , as there were many other impugning Christ the Lord otherwise : but the great Antichrist of Rome was by many degrees , and long continuance to be advanced to his throne . And as there were lesser Antichrists before him , by which he entred : so are there also after him ; and those left behind him in the Church of Engl : out of which he is driven . And those are the Lord Arch bishops , and Lordbishops , with their orders , and administrations : vnto whom whilst the inferiour ministers do swear canonicall obedience , they do by oath promise obedience vnto Antichrist , and receive his mark : and so ministring , are the marked servants of Antichrist , whom they obey : whom they are also by doctrine to defend , except their othes , and words disagreed . From whom if any of them do withdraw this their bounden , and sworn obedience , by denying subscription vnto his orders , or conformity vnto his ceremonies , them he silences , suspends , and deprives as schismaticall ( if not hereticall ) , and vtterly vnworthy of their , and their Churches service . And these things the reader may apply to Mr B. 3. first severall Reasons . Now to your fourth , and last Argument , viz : that you are no masse-preists , my answer is , first that you haue the same office with masse preists though reformed of that massing , and some other impietyes : and this both the practise of your Church , and your doctrine ( pleading for succession , and ordination from Rome , & Romish Bishops , do necessarily confirm . All the massepreists ordeyned in Queen Maries dayes for that end , were vpon their conformity to the orders then , continued Ministers in their severall congregations , in Queen Elizabeths dayes , by vertue of their former ordination . And so are such masse-preists at this day ( though ordeyned at Rome ) received and continued amongst you , vpon the aforenamed conditions . Now it is your own constant affirmation every where , that ordination makes the minister . Wherevpon it followes , that no new ordination , no new minister , but the old massepreist reformed of such impieties , wherein Rome exceeds England . 2. it is your doctrine in your first book , that the ministery makes the Church , & gives denomination vnto it : & in your 2. book , that the Church of Rome is a true Church : wherevpon it followeth necessarily , that the ministery in the Church of Rome is a true Ministery : except a false ministery can make a false Church . And if any order of ministery be , it is that of the parish preists , for they are the likest the Pastours in their severall charges . Whence I do also conclude , that since the Romish preists office is a true office though vnder corruptions , as it was true Iob overshadowed with byles , eyther the English preists must haue the same office with thē , ( though with the byles cured ) or els they are not the true ministers of Christ. And for the name preist , at which ( you say ) we catch , you do idly draw it from the Greeks , since it is most evident , that with the office , the name was tanslated vnto you from the Latine , and Romish Church : their sacerdos being your Priest in your books of ordination , and common prayer , which you haue from them : otherwise why do you not turn the Greek words praesbyter , & proistamenos , preists in your English Bibles , which are translated from the originalls . The sum of the 2. Arg. is that the Ministers of the Church of Engl : are Pastours , and Teachers , that is good sheepheards , such as do keep , feed , and govern the flock ; and as are qualified with gifts , and vnderstanding , and instruct them that are vnlearned . If in stead of Pastours , and Teachers , you had put Parsons , & Vicars , your writtes of presentation , and institution would haue proved it . But that you are Pastours , and Teachers , such as Paul speaks of Ephe. 4. by holy writ you can never manifest . 2. though the things were true you speak both for your power , and practise , yet except you administred those things by a lawfull calling , in a lawfull office , and to a lawfull assembly , you were not true Pastors , and Teachers . But it is not true you say of your selves that you play the good sheepheards in feeding , that is in providing pasture for the sheep , and in governing , & ordering them to , & fro , & at it . Your Prelates govern or rather reign , but teach not : your parish Preists some of them that can , & list , teach so much as they dare for feare of their imperious Lords , but govern not . Your 3. Arg : for your Ministers is , that they are called & sent of God , & of his Ch : , & therefore are true ministers . Their calling , & sending of God you make his preparing of them with gifts , & graces to be able to exequute in some measure the office , wherevnto he doth appoint them . But herein you are greatly mistaken : the Lords inabling men with gifts is one thing , and his calling them to vse them in such , and such an order , is another thing : and though the Lord calls none , but he inables them , yet he inables many , he never calls . Many counsellers , judges , lawyers , and others in the land , are very able to discharge the office of ministery , but are not called therevnto of God ; if they be , it is their sin not to obey the heavenly calling , and to become ministers . And as a man may be qualified with gifts for the ministery , and yet not called of God to vse them , ( so being qualified accordingly ) he may be a true Minister of the Church , though he be never called of God at all , as we now speak : So was Iudas , who was never inwardly called of God , that is , perswaded by the work of Gods spirit in his heart , in the zeal of Gods glory and love of the salvation of men , to take vpon him the office of an Apostle . And what true calling of God the Ministers in the Church of England haue to take vpon them their offices , & charges , as they do , appeares in their easy forsaking them vpon a litle persecution , yea before it come near them . Of which more hereafter . Now for the calling of the Ministers by the Church , albeit we put of the more full handling of it to the 4. Arg. yet something must be sayd for the present . And first , though it were true you say , that the Church of England were the true Church of Christ , yet were not your Ministers called , and sent by the Church , except a Lordly Prelate be the Ch : of England , for by such a one is every Minister amongst you , called , and made . 2. I deny here , ( as alwayes ) your nationall Ch : to be the true visible Church of Christ : and that which in this case , you say , is largely proved , I hope is sufficiently refuted . But here a demand you make in your answer to Mr Sm : must be satisfied , namely , why true ministers may not arise as well out of a false Church , as a false ministery out of a true Ch : ? The latter I agree vnto : for the Church may erre , and through errour or otherwise , chuse a man uncapable of the Ministery by the word of God. Whereupon it ▪ followes , that the Minister makes not the Church ( as you erroneously affirm ) for then the Church should in the very instant become a false Church when she sets vp a false Minister . But your inference I deny . For first evil may arise from good , though by accident , without any externall cause comming between : as sin did from the angels in heaven , and our first parents in paradise : but so cannot good from evil . 2. the officers are 1. of , 2 by , 3. in , and 4 for the Church . 1. of it , as members of the body , and so must be members of a true Church , before they can be true officers . 2. by it , in respect of their calling , as Gal. 1. 1. and therefore except they can eyther be true officers by a false calling , or that a false Church can give a true calling , they cannot be true in it . 3. in it , as the accidēts , or adjuncts in the subject , without which being true , they can have no more true existence , then reason can have , without a reasonable soul , or subject . 4. for it , and therefore since the Lord hath appointed no ministery for a false Church , there can by the word of God be no true ministery in it : and this I wish them to consider , which still adhere to the Church of England ( though they wholy dislike the constitution ) for the ministery in it . Now where you adde , that Luther and other worthy Ministers of Christ were raysed vp out of the Romish Church , you wrong him & them , and the truth in them , whilst you would gratifie Rome , and England . Luthers Ministery from Rome was his Fryardome : and is a Fryar a true minister of Christ by his office , or of Artichrist whither ? Besides , look what ministery the Church of Rome gave him , it took from him : and lastly if he had been a true officer or minister of the Church of Rome , it had been sinne in him to have left his charge . Touching the baptism received in the Romish Church I have formerly spoken ; and of our reteyning it , but not our Ministery , I shall speak hereafter . That , which is worthy consideration in the fourth Argument is , the enterance into the ministery : in the substance of which he tells vs , there is nothing wanting by their lawes . For touching the ability , and desyre to teach , and other graces he speaks of , they no more make a minister , then † courage , the feare of God , true dealing , and the hatred of of covetousnes make every man a Magistrate , that is so indowed . Now this entrance he layes down in 4. particulars : 1. presentation . 2. election , 3. probation , & 4. ordination with imposition of hands . But these in such confusion , and with so many contradictions , as do evidently shew what monsters an ill cause , & a vayn spirit meeting together , will gender , and bring forth . First , in his former book pag. 136. he places the whole calling , ( or as he speakes ) the making of a Minister in ordination : and comprehends vnder it as the 3. parts of it . 1. examination : 2. election : 3. admission , with imposition of hands . In his second book he makes ordination but the fourth , and last part of his calling , pag. 295. as in deed it is , and the same with admission : The reason why he would thus advance ordination is , bycause that in Engl : is all in all , being done by a Bishop , yea though it be by the Bishop of Rome . And so they call their book they make ministers by , the book of ordination not the book of election , or choise , or calling of Ministers . The Bishops Lordship swallowes vp the peoples liberty : and if he but lay his hands vpon a man , & bid him Receive the H. Ghost , he is a minister of the Church sufficiently ordered . 2. Where in his former book he puts examination , or probation before election : in his ● . he would haue election first , and the probation , or tryal of the partyes gifts , and graces to come afterwards : mis-interpreting that , which is written 1 Tim. 3. 10. of probation to be made before election . And the Reason of this I conceive to be , bycause the Ministers in England are not onely elected but fully made , before any such tryall be taken of them . But I come to the particulars : and first to that which he calls presentation : for which he quotes Act. 1. 23 and 6. 6. In which scriptures , especially in the latter of them , he is much mistaken : the presentation there spoken of not being before , but after election . The cause , I suppose , of this his confused wryting , is the confused practise in his Church , wher the Patrone presenteth his clerk both after his chusing , and ordeyning . But for the thing it self , ( vnderstanding by presentation the nomination of the person to be chosen , or considered of for choyce ) as the officers are in , all other things to goe before the people , so in this ordinarily : provided alwayes the brethrens liberty be not infringed , but that they may present , or nominate others , if any amongst themselves seeme more fit . Now for the examination , and tryall of the partyes gifts , and graces , as we all know what it is in the Church of England where if a man have the gift of subscription , conformity , & canonical obedience , though other gift , or grace he have none , he is a tryed minister , and so reputed : which if he want , be his other gifts , and graces never so eminent , he is neyther to enter into , nor being entred , to continue in his Ministery : so do the things , which you write in your † former book , touching this tryall , & examination of men , before they be chosē into the Ministery , notably condemn both the ministery of your Church , which you labour to iustify , and on the contrary iustify sundry practises amongst vs , which els where you condemn for notable errours . The particulars are these . 1. First , that the gifts of him that is to be chosen , must be examined according to those things , which the place wherein he must be , requireth , and God hath commaunded . 2. that the place or office of the Ministery consisteth principally in the preaching of the word , administration of the sacraments , and prayer . 3. that the first , namely the preaching of the word , is to be preferred in the first place , as being first imposed , Math. 10. 28. 29. and most necessary both to beget , and preserve a people . Iam. 1. 18. Prov. ●9 . 15. 4. that the knowledge ; zeale , and vtterance of of ●●● party to be elected must be examined . Whereupon these things follow . First , that , by your own graunt , men out of office may preach , administer the sacraments , and prayer : and so exercise their gifts , and graces of knowledge , zeal , & vtterance . But as there is some difference , in the respect in hand , between the sacraments on the one side , and the word , and prayer on the other : bycause there is no speciall gift required for the administration of them , as there is for the latter : so is the exercise of prophesying , and prayer out of office ( so much impugned by you ) vndenyably iustified by this your own position . And as it is a very presumptuous evill to call any man into the office of a teaching Elder , whose gift in teaching hath not been sufficiently tryed out of office , so is it no lesse presumption in a Church to set a man over herself for government , of whose both ability , & faithfulnes in the reproving , & censuring of sinns , and in other publick affaires of the Church , she hath not taken good tryall . 2. If this be true , that the office of the Ministery consist principally in the preaching of the word , and administration of the sacraments , & prayer , how is that true , for which you have so much contended in the former part of your book ▪ that the authority to censure offenders , is in the cheif officers , and governers of the Church , as their speciall prerogative ? Can a lesse principall work be the peculiar priveledge of a more principall office ? It is against the light of nature , and common reason . More particularly : this observation by you truely made , with that also which followeth , namely , that the preaching of the word is to be praeferred in the first place , overthrowes the order both of the Prelacy and Preisthood of your Church . For if the preaching of the gospel be the principall work of the Ministery , and to be preferred in the first place ▪ then are not your Provinciall and Diocesan Bishops , of God , which have obteyned the principall order , and office in your Church for a lesse principall work , namely government ; and are preferred to the highest , & first place , not for the teaching of their Dioseces , & Provinces , which were impossible , though they desired it , but for ruling of them . You say they are the successors of the Apostles : but the cheif work of the † Apostles Ministery was the preaching of the gospel , not ruling ( much lesse Lording ) wherein your Bishops office standeth . The order , which the Apostle Paul hath left , is , that those * Elders , which labour in the word , and doctrine , should have speciall honour , and aboue them , which are imployed in ruling : but this order Antichrist hath subverted , as being a course not onely too base , and laborious , but even impossible , for him to honour his Ministers by , as he desired , and hath effected ; & hath procured not double , & treble , but an hundred fold greater honour to be ascribed to ruling , and government , then to preaching . And this is not the least part of that confusion wherein you stand , and against which wee testify . 2. If the office of Ministery consist principally in preaching , how can your office of Ministery or order of Preisthood , be of Christ , which cōsists not at all in preaching , as I haue shewed , but may stand without it , by the Canons & Lawes of your Church : not requiring it necessarily as any essentiall property for the being , but onely admitting of it , as a convenient ornament for the well-being : commending in deed the person that vseth it , but no wayes justifying the office , which requireth it not . Yea most evident it is , that the Ministery of the Church of England , considering it not onely in the state , & cariage of things , but specially in the civil , and ecclesiasticall lawes wherein it is founded , consists more principally in the wearing of a surplice , then in the preaching of the gospel . To conclude this point , as the examination of such with you , as are to be ordeyned , by the Bishop , and his Chaplayn , is no triall of their gifts of knowledge , zeal , or vtterance , or that they are † apt to teach , but a devise like the poseing of schoolboyes , without eyther warrant fro the scriptures , or good to the Church : so the onely examination which the word of God approves of , is that just , and experimentall knowledge which the Church , by wise observation , is to take of the personall gifts , and graces of such men , as the Lord rayseth vp amongst them , manifesting themselves in the publick exercises of the Church in their places , as there is occasion ; though you Mr Bern. be bold to abuse 1 Tim. 3. 7. to the justification of your letters testimoniall vnto the Bishop , which any vngodly person may procure from other persons as ill as himself , and thereby may find acceptance with some Bishop or other , as evill as eyther of both . The Apostle “ Peter directing the disciples , or Church about the choice , or nomination of one to be chosen into the room of Iudas , tels them they must think of such a man , as had companyed with them all the tyme , that the Lord Iesus was conversan● among them . And the same Apostle , together with the rest , by the same spirit directs the Ch : afterward to ‘† chuse from among themselves seven men iustly qualified , to take vpon them the administratiō of the Church treasury . And vpon the same ground it was that the Apostles Paul & Barnabas did not streightway vpon the gathering of the Churches of the Gentiles * ordeyn them officers , but a good space after , even when the people had made good proof and tryall of the gifts , and faithfulnes of such men as by their free choice , and election , the Apostles ordeyned over them . And whom doth it concern so nearely to make proof , or to take observation of them that are to be called into office , as them that are to call , or chuse them , and to commit their soules vnto them ? Of which election it followeth we consider in the next place . And the first thing I purpose about it , is to sum vp , and set together a few of Mr B. sayings , which like so many waves driven by contrary winds , do dash thēselves asunder one against another . First then he affirmeth , ‘† pag. 133. and 138. that the Church i● t● separate , and c●●se 〈…〉 amongst others , for Ministers , such as are found fit : & in so saying , what doth he but graunt , that the Church is before the Ministers ? They that chuse must needs be before the that are chos●n● ▪ How them do the Ministers make the Church ? 2. In his † 2. book he reproacheth Mr Smyth , as an impudent ga●nsayer of the t●●t , for saying that the Church did elect Mathias , Act. 1. where the Lord did make the ch●ise : and yet in the same book , pag. 295. 296. he graunts , that such examples of practise were then in vse for the peoples chusing Ministers ; and quotes this very scripture , with some others for that purpose . 3. he affirmeth in his † former book that the guides , and governours of the Ch : were to chuse the Officers , & alledgeth to that end Act. 14. 23. Neyther remembring what he had formerly written in the same book , namely , that * the rest of the congregation were to chuse the principall to be their mouth , and to stand for the whole Church : nor yet caring what he was to write in his . “ 2. book , to wit that the people were to chuse their ministers , for which he also bringeth the same scripture , Act. 14. 23. If this man had been in Iohn Baptists place , the Iewes might well haue answered Christ , that they had gone out to see a reed shaken with the wind . But to leave his contradictions of himself , & to come to his oppositions against the truth . And first , it is erronious●y written by him , and the scriptures Act. 13. 1. 2. & 14. 23. sinfully perverted to the justification of his errour , that † by the Church which , is to chose officers ●s meant the guids , and governours thereof . That which I haue formerly noted out of both his books , espetially his quoting the latter of these scriptures for the peoples liberty in chusing their ministers , doth give great cause of suspition , that in this case he thus writes for his purpose , against his conscience , and is in deed condemned of himself . And for the other place , which is Act. 13. 1. 2. I may as justly ( yea & much more ) reprove Mr B. for bringing it for the governours chusing of Paul , and Barnabas , as he Mr Smyth for bringing Act. 1. for the peoples chusing of Mathias . For , first Barnabas & Saul were Apostles , as well as Mathias : and therefore not to be called to their office by man but by God , Gal : 1. 1. and so were of * the Holy Ghost as immediately separated by name , as was Mathias by lot . 2. Mathias was at that time first called to the office of Apostleship , which before he had not : but Paul , and Barnabas were * Apostles long before , and at that tyme designed onely to a speciall work , but not called to any office . 3. It appeareth that Paul , and Barnabas were not separated , & sent by the governours onely , but by the Church with them , wherin they ministred , and which joyned with them in prayer , and fasting , and so consequently in dismissing , or letting them go , ver . 2. 3. though most like the ceremony of imposition of hands was performed onely by the Teachers , and Prophets , but with the foregoing consent of the Church , according to the expresse direction of the holy Ghost . And that , not the governours severally , but the Church with them , separated and sent them , vnder the Lords expresse nomination , appears evidently , Act. 14. 27. where vpon their return ▪ they made relation , not to the officers , but to the Church gathered together for that purpose , what things the Lord had wrought by thē , that so not onely the grace of God towards the Gentiles might be taken knowledge of , and magnified , but also that their service , & ministration might be approved to the Church , which sent them . And thus all may see how injurious this man is to the right , and liberty of the brethren , as formerly in the censures , so here in the choise of officers : making the governours alone the Church both in the one , and the other . And being both of them Church matters , and parts of the publique administration of Christs kingdom , the same scriptures which demonstrate the peoples interest in the one , do conclude the same in the other . In the beginning , the Lord Iesus , and his Apostles by his spirit , appointed none other true visible Churches but particular cōgregations of faythfull people ; ( for of the vanity of representative Churches in the new testament I have formerly spoken ) but as † knowledge puffeth vp ▪ so within a few ages , the officers and governours of the Church ( being men of knowledge ) began to swell with that poysoned humour of pride , & ambition , wherewith Antichrist had infected them , especially when they were once setled in peace , and plenty ; and taking withall , partly advantage , by the peoples negligence in themselves , and superstitious admiration of their guides ; and partly occasion by the abuse of their liberty ) have been bold to engrosse the liberties of the whole Church into their own hands , and with them , the name . They alone must haue the keyes of the kingdome of heaven hanging at their girdell , for the opening , & shutting of heaven gates : which is all one as if in playn termes they should affirm , that to them alone were committed the oracles of God , the gospel of salvation , see Rom. 3. 2. Iude , 3. They alone must * speak in the Church to adif●ing , exhortation , and comfort : and so all the brethren must be silenced in the exercise of prophecying . To them alone must the complaints of sinns be brought , and they alone must be heard in the reforming of them : and thus must the bottomles gulf of the governours authority svvallovv vp the brethrens liberty in the reproving , and censuring of offenders . They alone are to separate , and chuse the ministers : and of this branch of the povver of Christ amongst the rest , must the body of the Church be stript . And as there is no end of errours , vvhere they once begin , especially of those , vvhich tend to the advancement of the man of sin in his Ministers above all that is called God , so hath this iniquity prevayled yet further , even to the bereaving of the people of the cup in the Lords supper , and of the very scriptures in their mothers tongue : the Preists alone communicating in both parts of the supper ; and inclosing the scriptures themselves vvith in the Romish , or Latine language , vvhich they alone , to speak of ▪ vnderstood . Yea , to conclude , so effectuall hath the delusion of Satan been this vvay , that it hath been vniversally taught , and beleeved , that an implicite faith vvas sufficient in the lay people , & that no more vvas required of them then to beleeve , as the Church ( that is , the ( guides , and governours of the Church ) beleeved , though they were vtterly ignorant what their fayth was . And what lesse in effect doth M. B. affirm in his “ 2. book , where he writes , that , if the cheif do voluniarily receive , professe , & proclaym a faith , or religion , it is to be accounted the act of all , though the inferiours come not to consent ? he might as well haue added , though they be ignorant of it , or what it meanes . Yea doth not this conclusion follow vpon the former ground , that the officers are the Church . Mat. 18. for the reproving & censuring of offenders , and for the binding , & loosing of sinns ? If the Officers be the Church for one religious , or spirituall determination , why not for an other ? And if the censures agreed vpon and ministred by the Officers , be by way of representation , the censures of the Church , without the actuall consent of the people ; why is not the faith agreed vpon , and published by the officers the fayth of the Church , by way of representation , before the peoples distinct knowledge of it , or actuall consent vnto it ? Put the case the officers change their auncient fayth in some mayn point , wherein the body of the Church still abideth , and so differeth from them ; and that they take occasion to excommunicate some brother , or brethr●n , that most opposes them : if this excommunication of the officers be the excōmunication of the Church representatively , without the peoples consent ; then is this new faith also of the officers , for which this excommunication is practised , the faith of the people notwithstanding their not onely not consenting vnto , but their vtter dissenting from the same . Now as the governours did thus engrosse the power , and libertyes of the Church , so no marvayl , though with them , they assumed the name . Hence is it that they alone are called the Church , the Clergy , the spiritually : the prophane idiotish laity are excluded both from the title , and thing . Symon the Sadler , To●●k●● the Taylour , Belly the Bellowes-maker must be no Church men , nor meddle with Ch : matters . As though it were eyther not true , or to no purpose , which is written , that Christ himself vvas † a Carpenter * Paul a ●en●maker , " Peter , Andrew , Iames , & Iohn Fishermen . One onely thing more I vvill adde , & so conclude this point ; which is , that the Preists vvere not more eager at the first vpon the people , till they had svvallovved vp their liberty , then they vvere afterwards one vpon an other , till one had gotten all ; from whom , as from the Catholick visible head , all power should issue , and be derived to the severall partes of the body . And hovv clean a vvay Mr Bern. and others ( vvhich knovving better have the more sin ) make to this mischeif , in pleading that Paul alone , 1 Cor. 5. & the severall Angels alone in the severall Churches Rev. 2. & 3. vvere to reform , and censure abuses , let the vvise reader judge . The 2. allegation made by Mr B. against vvhich I except , is , that the Ministers vvith them have all things in substance required by the word of God for their making , as presentation , election , examination , ordinatiō , with imposition of hands ; and that the exceptions wee take are but about circumstances onely , and same manner of doing : which do not make a nullity , or falsity of the deed done . As we do except against the very office it self , and against the mayn , and most principall works of it , by law required , as works of will-worship , and † voluntary religion , so do our exceptions against the very calling , and enterance of your Ministers evince them sufficiently not to be the true Ministers of Christ. “ No man takes this honour vnto himself , but he that is called of God , as Aaron . No , Christ himself took not this honour to be made the high Pr●●st , but he that sayd vnto him , thou art my sonne , this day begate I thee , gave it him . And if Christ the Lord of his Church did not take vpon him the solemn administration of his office , till by the Father he was called thereunto from heaven , it is great presumption for any man ( and he a bold vsurper , that so practiseth ) to take vpon him any office in the Church , not being chosen and called thereunto by them , which under the Lord , haue received this Charter , thus to call Ministers , which are onely his Church , and people . And by this doctrine of Mr Bern : that faylings in circumstances , and manner of doing , make not a nullity , or falsity of the deed , it should follow , that if a company of Papists , Arians , Anabaptists , or of any other Haeretiques , or idolaters should chose , and call a minister , though it were a child , an idiote , yea a woman , & that after the most prophane , and superstitious manner that could be , yet this made no nullity , or falsity of the action , for all were but errours in circumstances , and manners of doing . Yea by this trifling , murther , adultery , and all the mischeifs in the world might be defended . If a private person should take upon him without lawfull authority to be a judge , and should condemn the inocent , and justify the guilty person , all the evill were but in the circumstances of persons judging , and judged . If a man gaue his body to the wife of another man , the evill were but circumstantiall , he might haue done it to another person , namely his own or proper wife . What cōfusion would these excuses of circumstances onely , & manner of doing things , bring over all estates , if they were admitted of ? Of this mischeif I haue spoken , pag. 21. 22. 23. 37. The 3. consideration in this matter is , about such devises , as Mr Bern. hath found for the shifting off such places , as prove that the people ought to choose their Ministers . The scriptures are Act. 1. and 6. & 14. 23. to which also might be added Numb . 8. 9. 10. Act. 11. 22. 1 Cor. 16. 3. 2 Cor. 8 19. vvith many others . His ansvver is , first , that these places testify , that such examples of practise were then , but that there is no praecept for the perpetuity of it . This is an vngodly evasion * making the commaundements of God of none authority by mens traditions : & tending to the abolishment of the testament of Christ , which he hath confirmed by his death : vvherein he hath not onely by practise , but also by the doctrine † of the Apostles , vpon which he hath founded the Church , or temple of God , for ever , established this ordinaunce , as a part of the nevv testament : and that not vpon some extraordinary , temporary , and changeable occasion , as some thing have been ordered , and decreed by the Apostles , Act. 15. 1. 2. 28. 29. but vpon ordinary , & constant grounds , and vpon reasons , and causes of perpetuall equity ; such as concern all Churches in all places to the vvorlds end : as shall appear hereafter . When the Lord Iesus sent forth his Apostles to gather Churches , he gave them in charge “ to teach them to obserue all things , whatsoever he had commaunded thē . promising vvithall that in so doing he would be with them alway vntill the end of the world . And that , amongst other doctrines , they taught the people this , that they were to choose their officers , the scriptures cited do fully testify . See Act. 1. 15. 16. 16 — 23. & 6. 2. 3. 5 6. & 14. 23. Answerable vnto this is that which the Apostle Paul protesteth to the ‘* Elders of Ephesus at Miletum that he was pure from the blood of all men , in that he had kept no thing back , but shewed them all the counsel of God : one part of which counsayl was , that the people were to chuse their Officers , which by Mr Bernards own graunt they observed . to which also adde , that the same Apostle writing vnto the Church of Corinth about a matter of “ order , avoweth † the things which he writes , to be the cōmaundements of the Lord ; and chargeth all them as wilfully ignorant , which do not so acknowledge them . With what conscience then . or colour of reason ●an this man say , that this power , and right of the people to chuse their Ministers , was onely a matter of practise , but not of praecept ? & no immediate right from Christ , but a graunt vnto them from the Apostles , or vpon their exhortation for the tyme ? It is true he sayth in the same place , 1. that the people did not elect , or chuse , but when the Apostles were amongst them ; & 2. that they did it vpon their exhortation . And for the first who denyes , but that where faithful , and godly officers are , the people are by their direction , & government according to the will of Christ , to vse their liberty in this , and all the other affaires of the Church ? So for the second , it was so the Apostles exhortation , as it was also a divine institution by the spirit of God , never reversed but by those * vnclean spirits of Divels , which like froggs came out of the mouth of the Dragon , and out of the mouth of the Beast , and out of the mouth of the false Prophet : part of the counsel of God , never altered , or departed from , but by them , “ which take counsayl , but not of God : and lastly , one of the commaundements of Christ , which the Apostles were bound both to teach , and exhort the people to observe , never disannulled , but by the counter-commaund , craft , and violence of Antichrist : who as one of your own Prelates hath truely observed , never ceased , till by cursing , and fighting he had gotten all into his own hands . The insinuation therefore which you make against vs in assuming this liberty vnto vs , as a right of our selves , is vnjust : considering we have it conveyed vnto vs from Christ in the writings of the Apostles , wherein they do as expresly teach it vs , and as effectually exhort vs vnto it , as if they were personally present with vs. And that which the people might then doe in their presence , vpon their speach , they may now do vpon their writings , in their absence , and in the absence of all other officers also , if the particular Churches be for the present vnfurnished of them . Now where he further addeth , that the people then were very iudicious , and able to make a choise , whereas it is now far otherwise with many : it is of some consideration for the people , & Church of England , but of none at all for the people , & Church of God. If the people in the parish assemblies there should vsurp this power , it would be far otherwise with them indeed , for the most part , then with people iudicious , or able to make a choise . Can blind men judge of colours , ? or * naturall men of spirituall things ? If a man would prophesie vnto them of wine , and strong drink , he were a Prophet for such a people . It is certayn they would chuse Ministers like themselves , ignorant , & loose fellowes for the most part , & the saying of the Prophet would be verifyed , * as is the people , so is the Preist . And yet worse then are made , and chosen by the Bishops , and Patrons generally , they could hardly find . But observe your self Mr B. when you plead for the ignorance , and prophanenes of your own people , you write that the Apostles received into the Churches persons very ignorāt ▪ and of lewd conversation : Now when you come to plead against the liberty of the people of God , you make them in the Apostles tymes to have been very iudicious , & able to discern of things , far otherwise then the people now are . Now for the exception it self , it is of no valew . But as the ordinances , and administration of the Iewish Church , remayned the same , and vnalterable , though the peoples knowledge were not alwayes the same but sometimes greater , sometimes lesse : so is it in the estate of the new testament with all thē which deem that † Christ the Sonne is worthy of as much honour in his ordinances , as was Moses , a servant of the house , in his . And if this devise were admitted of , that the liberty of the people should eb , and flow , according to the measure of their knowledge , then should not all the brethren in the same Church haue the same Christian liberty in the choise of officers , censuring of offenders , and the like ordinances ; for all have not the same measure of knowledge , nay it may be scarce two of all ; so divers is the dispensation of grace to the severall members . Then should scarce two severall Churches in the world injoy the same Christian liberty , the one with the other ; no nor any one with it self , any long tyme , since one Church differeth from another , yea from it self at divers times , in the measure , & degree of knowledge , and other graces of God. Besides , if we should wey together in the ballances , the Churches of Christ now , and in the Apostles times , the Christian liberty of the people would rather sway the ballance this way , then the other way , and to the people now , then in the Apostles dayes . For first there were present with the people in those first times , besides other extraordinary officers extraordinarily indowed , the Apostles themselves , those great Maister-buylders , which ( if any other in the world ) might lawfully haue deprived the people of their power in this & the like cases : which notwithstāding they did not , but on the cōtrary did faithfully inform , & direct thē according to the cōmaundement of Christ , in the right , & lawful vse of the same . And yet notwithstanding the Bishops of the Romish , and English Church ( though not worthy so much as of the name of daubers in the Lords house , in comparison of those other Maister-buylders ) dare without fear , or shame , engrosse all into their owne hands ; and haue their proctours , this man and others , many a one , to plead for them in their vsurpation . 2. The Churches in the Apostles tyme were newly converted frō Iudaism , and Paganism , and had still cleaving vnto them much ignorance in many great poynts . And in particular , the disciples , or Church at Ierusalem , after they were both possessed , and had vse of this power of chusing officers , were ignorant of no lesse a point then the calling of the Gentiles ; of which , or the like mayn ground of religion , no true Church of Christ now is ignorant , as that Ch : then was . And thus it appeareth , that the choise of Officers by the people in the primitive Churches was not a matter casual or of the Apostles courtesy , but a commaundement of Christ , left penned by the H. Ghost , as is the rest of that story , and of those Acts of the Apostles , for our direction , and the direction of all the Churches of Christ to the worlds end . One shift more Mr Bernard makes , from which he must be put , and that is , that the Patron chuseth for the people a fit man , whom the Bishop finding fit by examination , ordeyneth , and that this is a lawfull calling . To let passe , that the Patrons vsually choose not for the people , but for themselves , and their own profits , and pleasures , which though it be apparant to all men , is ( not without cause ) winked at by the Bishops , considering how , and by what meanes they procure their own choise , I answer first , that the patron doth not chuse for the people , that is , as the people did chuse in the Apostles tymes . For the people then made choise of such , as were before private persons , but by their election to be ordeyned into office : where the Patron chuseth a Clerk , who is in office already , and ordeyned by the Bishop before the Patron make choise of him . The Bishop doth at the first make him a Minister at large , and not of any particular Church , and so sends him , as it were , to graze vpon the Commons , till afterwards he be found by , or rather find , some Patron , which by his presentation makes a gap , and lets him into some vacant Vicarage , or Parsonage , there to minister accordingly . But admit in the 2. place , that the Patron stood in the room of the people to choose for them , I would demaund , who set him there ? or where the scriptures do eyther teach or approve of any such A●●urney-ships in the matters of religion , & of Gods worship , as you make by telling vs in one place that the officers do make professiō of faith ; in another , that they censure offenders ; & here , that they chuse Ministers for the people . If som one mā in a parish had ●nta●l●d to him and his heyres for ever , the power of appoynting housbands to all the women in the parrish , the bondage were intollerable , though in a matter of Civile nature : how much more intollerable then is the spirituall bondage of the parrish assemblyes vnder the imperious presentations of those Lord patrons , whose Clerks they must receive , and submit vnto , whither they wil or no ? Great is the sin of the people , which loose this † liberty , greater of the Patrons , which engrosse it , but the greatest of all is that for the Ministers , which by their doctrine , & practise , confirm both the one and the other in their iniquity : all three conspiring together in this , that they alter the ordinances , and commaundements of Christ by his Apostles , and so both * diminish of his institution , & adde of ●heir owne devise . Now as the forenamed scriptures ( like a gratious charter given to this spirituall corporation , the Church , by the King thereof , Iesus Christ ) do clearly plead the peoples liberty , and power of the choise of their Ministers , so will I adde vnto them certayn Reasons , to prove this order , and ordinance to be of morall , and perpetuall equity . The first is bycause the bond between the Minister , and people is the most streyt , and near religious bond that may be , and therefore not to be entered but with mutuall consent , any more then the civill bond of mariage between the housband , and wife . It makes much both for the provocation of the Ministery vnto all diligence , and faithfulnes : and also for his comfort in all the tryals , and temptations which befall him in his Ministery , when he considereth hovv the people , vnto whom he ministreth , have committed that most rich treasure of their soules ( in the Lord ) yea I may say , of their very faith , & ioy , to be helped forward vnto salvatiō , to his care , and charge , by their free , and voluntary choise of him . It much furthers the love of the people to the person of their Minister , and so consequently , their obedience vnto his doctrine , and government , when he is such a one , as themselves in duety vnto God , and love of their own salvation , have made choise of : as on the contrary , it leaves them without excuse , if they eyther perfidiously forsake , or vnprofitably vse such a mans holy service , and ministration . Lastly it is agreable to all equity , and reason , that all free persons , and estates should choose their own servants , and them vnto whom they give wages , and maintenance for their labour , and service . But so it is betwixt the people , and ministers : the people a free people , & the Church a free estate spirituall , vnder Christ the King ▪ the Ministers the Churches ( as Christs ) † servants : & so by the Churches provision ●o live , and of her , as “ labourers to receive wages . Thus much of the 4. Argument . The 5. followeth , the summe whereof is , that , bycause the Ministers of the English assemblies , teach true , and sound doctrine in the root , and fundamentall points of religion , they are therefore the true Ministers of Christ. And that sound doctrine is the triall of a true Minister , Mr B. would prove from these scriptures , 1 Tim. 4. 6. Ier. 23. 22. Of the vnsound doctrine of your Church , and that more specially in the fundamentall points of religion , “ others have spoken at large formerly , and something is by me hereafter to be spoken : for the present therefore this shall serve , that , since † Christ Iesus not onely as Preist , and Prophet , but as King , is the foundation of his Church : and that the visible Church is * the kingdome of Christ ; the doctrines towching the subiects , government , officers , & lawes of the Church , can be no lesse then fundamentall doctrines of the same Church , or Kingdome . Which how vnsound they are with you , appears in your Canons ecclesiasticall composed for that purpose . Which if your ministers preach , they preach vnsound doctrine , and strike at a mayn pillar of religion , viz : the visible † Church of God , which is the pillar , and ground of truth , as the Apostle speaketh : if not , then are they schismatiques in , and frō your Church , whose solemn doctrines they refuse to publish . Now bycause Mr Bern. every where beares himself big vpon the sound doctrines taught by the ministers in England , and in this place brings in two scriptures to warrāt their Ministery vpō this groūd , let vs a litle consider of the scriptures , and of the intent of them , and what verdict they give in on his side . In the one place , the Prophet * Ieremy reproves the Preists and Prophets , for not dealing faithfully with the people , in laying before them their abhominations , and Gods judgements due unto the same , that so they might haue turned from their evil wayes , and from the wickednes of their inventions ; but for flattering them on the contrary , in their iniquities , and for preaching peace vnto them , for the strengthening of their hands in evil . Now if the Ministers in England be measured by these mens line , they will appear to ly levell with thē in a great measure . For first , the greatest part of them by far , declare not the Lords word at all vnto the people , but are tonguetyed that way , some through ignorance , some through idlenes , & many through pride . And of them which preach how many are there mere men-pleasers , flattering the mighty with vayn , and plausibly words , and strengthening the hands of the wicked ; and with prophane , and malicious spirits , reviling , and disgracing all sincerity in all men : adding vnto these evils a wicked conversation , by which they further the destruction of many , but the conversion of none . And lastly , for those few of more sound doctrine , and vnblameable cōversation , let these things be considered . First , they are reputed schismatiques in the Church of Engl : & are generally excōmunicated ipso facto , & so wil appear to be to any that compares their practise with the ecclesiasticall lawes of that Church . 2. They do with these sound doctrines mingle many errours : yea the same things which in the generall they teach , and professe , they do in the particulars , but specially in their practise , gainsay , & deny . 3. As they declare the Lords will vnto the people but by halves , and keep back a great part of his counsel , which they know is profitable for them , & wherin they would walk with them , were it not for fear of persecution , so are they ready to de silenced , & to smother the whole counsel of the L. , & not to speak one word more in his name vnto the people vpon ●h●ir Lord Bishops inhibition : which ( were they perswaded in their consciences they were sent of God ) I suppose they durst not do . Of which more in the seventh Argument . Now for that in Tim. 1. Epist. 4. ch . ver . 6. if the doctrine of the Ministers agree with the doctrine , and practise of the Ch : they will appear liker to them , of whom Paul speaks , ver . 3. then to Timothy , ver : 6. If it be sayd , that the Church of England , forbid ▪ not mariage , & vse of meates absolutely , but in certayn respects ; I answer , no more doth the Church of Rome , but to certeyn persons , and at certeyn times : against whō notwithstanding all Protestants do apply this scripture : and so doth the Church of England forbid them ; though more sparingly ( as good reason the daughter come something behind the mother ) as mariage to fellowes in Colledges , and to Apprentices , and to all at certeyne tymes , especially at Lent : during which holy time , the eating of flesh is also forbidden , and abstinence commaunded , and that in incitation of * Christs f●●ting for our sakes fourty dayes , and fourty nightes ; and that for a religious vse , namely the subd●ing of the flesh vnto the spirit , for the better obedience of godly motto●s in righteousnes , & true holynes , as the Collect for the first sunday in Lent witnesseth . But admit the Ministers of Engl : taught foundly in all the mayn points of religion , as I acknowledge some doe in the most , yet did this no way prove them true Ministers of Christ , that is , lawfully called to true offices in the Church . In what mayn point of religion ( as you valew points ) could Corah be chalenged ? and yet he was no true Preist of the Lord , but an vsurper of that office ▪ v. 10. 11. as on the contrary , they were true Preists , in respect of their office , who deceived the people here , and every where , as the scriptures manifest . So that both he , which is no true minister of Christ , may teach the ma●n truthes of religion : and he also that is a true Minister , may erre greatly , & yet not presently cease to bear both the place , and name of a true minister of Christ. Otherwise all Ministers are Popes , that cannot err . To end this Argument , Mr B. in both his books vvould have probation , and tryall to be made of a mans gifts , and graces before he be admitted into the ministery . And not onely he , but Paul himself amongst , & above the rest , requires , * aptnes to teach and † ability to exhort with wholesome doctrine : and as this gift must be in him , so must it be known to be in him , before he can be lawfully called into the ministery ▪ and this Mr B. affirms expresly , and that by the exercise of this gift , his knowledge , zeal and vtterance , is to be manifested . Wherevpon I conclude that , if tryall by sound doctrine must be made of them , which are no ministers at all ( as indeed it must in the exercise of prophesying ) then cannot sound doctrine be any sufficient tryall , that is proof , or Argument , of a true minister . The sixth Argument for the justification of the ministers in Engl. is , Gods ordinary , and dayly assistance of them in theyr ministery , for the working mens conversion vnto the Lord. God forbid I should eyther deny , or make doubt of the effectuall conversion of men vnto salvation in Engl. neyther doth Mr Ainsworth say ( as you charge him in your 2. book ) that none are converted by you : but he shewes , first , how you cōtradict your selves in saying that you convert men to God , and yet affirm , that the same persons before their conversion , were true Christians : and 2. that considering the swarmes of graceles persons , wherewith all your parrishes are filled , you have more cause of blushing , then of boasting this way . But this I deny , that the conversion of men vnto God is a sufficient Argument to prove a true minister of Christ : that is , to prove a lawfull calling into a true office of ministery , according to Christs testament . It is most evident , that whosoever converteth a man vnto God , that person doth in truth , and in deed minister the word of God , & the spirit by the word : & so may be sayd to be sent of God ; but that every one , whom God so honoreth , ( though never so ordinarily ) should therefore be a true Church officer lawfully called to publique administration ( which is the quaestion betwixt Mr B. and me ) is most vntrue & cōtrary both to many * scriptures , which shew that men in no office , may , and to much experience , which shewes they do convert , and save sinners . And if onely officers may convert vnto the Lord , to what purpose should private persons exhort , instruct , and reprove any vpon any occasion whatsoever ? But here I am driven to take vpon me the defence of them , whom Mr B. pag. 299. of his 2. book challengeth for cavellers , upon the same ground ▪ he chalengeth Mr Ainsworth for deceip●ful dealing , pag. 304. of the same book . Mr Ainsworth denyes that qualification with good gifts is a proof of a lawful Minister . Herein sayth Mr B. he severs deceiptfully things to be conioyned , for this reason with the rest in my book , shewes , who is a true Minister . In like maner , we except against his 6. Argument , & affirm that others , besides Ministers , do cōvert men to God ; & that therfore conversiō argues not a true minister . This is cavelling , sayth Mr B. for both these , and others may conv●rt : and agayn this is but one Reason , but there be m●re besides , which are sufficient to prove our ministery . And is it cavelling in vs , or ignorance in you thus to speak ? you do acknovvledge pag. 304. that qualification with good gifts is a Reason amongst the rest to shew a true Minister : and pag. 298 you make the conversiō of men , a distinct argument to prove the same thing . And know you not , that every sound Reason , or Argument must prove , or argue , of it self , the thing , for vvhich it is brought ? Many Reasons indeed , or Arguments may be produced to prove one , and the same thinge : and so for further confirmation , may follovv one vpon another : but so as every one of them severally be of force to prove the thing in quaestion , othervvise it is not vvorthy the name of a Reason , or Argument , but is a meer sophistication . Eyther therefore Mr Bernard bring such Arguments , as vvil of themselves evince that they are brought for ; and then reckon them vp by sevens as you do here ; or by tvventies if you vvill , as els vvhere you doe : or els cease to abuse the Reader vvith a multitude of maymed proofs as your custome is . Novv bycause the conversion of men to God is much vrged by the Ministers , and much stood at by many vvell minded people ( as indeed both in equity , and good conscience , men are to respect the instruments of Gods mercy tovvards them ) I vvill enlarge my self , in this point , further , then othervvise I vvould . And first for the tvvo scriptures quoted in both your books . Rom. 10. 14. 15. 1 Cor. 9. 2. from the former of vvhich you cōclude , that bycause you so preach , as people thereby do heare , beleeve , & call vpon God , you are therefore sent of God. Let the Reader here observe , that the Apostle in both these places speaks of the conversion of Heathens , and Infidels to the fayth of Christ , as were the Romayns , and Corinthians before the preaching of the Gospel vnto them : and so let him demaund of Mr B. whether the Ministers in England haue had the same effect in their preaching vnto the people there , with them , that preached vnto the Romayns , and Corinthians , and brought them by preaching from infidelity to beleeve in God ? If they haue , then vvere the people Infidels before , and vvithout faith , and so are the rest not thus effectually converted by their preaching : if not , how then stands the comparison , or proportiō between the effect of their Ministery then , and theirs in England now ? or what Argument can be taken from these effects compared together ? In the generall , I confesse , there is a proportion , and so in that generall , and large sense , wherein Mr B. pag. 313. expounds the word sent , or Apostle , I do acknowledge many Ministers in Engl : sent of God ▪ that is , that it comes not to passe without the speciall providence , and ordination of God , that such , and such men should rise vp , and preach such , and such truthes for the furtherance of the salvation of Gods elect in the places , where they come . They which † preached Christ of envy , and strif● , to ad more afflictions to the Apostles bonds , were in this respect sent of God , and therefore it was , that the Apostle toyed a● their preaching . How much more they that preach of a sincere mind , though through ignorance , or infirmity ▪ both their place , & enterance into it be most vnwarrantable ? * Iosephs brethren ▪ the Pa●r●arks , did of h●●red and envy sell him into Aegypt : and yet the s●riptur●s testifie , that ‘* God sent him thither . And the same God which could vse their malice ( by which he vvas sold into Aegypt ) for the bodyly good of his people there ; even he can vse the power of A●tichrist , ( by which the Ministers in the Church of England haue their calling ) for the spirituall good of his people there . And yet neyther the secondary meanes of Iosephs sending , nor of the Ministers eyther entry , or standing , any thing at all the more warrantable . The other scripture is 1 Cor. 9. 2. of which I haue spoken something formerly , & others much more : & in which for the avoiding of ambiguity , I consider these two things . First , what the Apostle purposeth to prove : and 2. the medium , or Argument by which he proves his purpose . Touching the former , it is evident , his purpose is to prove himself an Apostle , in the most strict , and propper sense , ( hovvsoever * Mr B. tri●les ) contrary to the false insinuations of his adversaries , which bare the Churches in hand against him , that he was onely an ordinary Minister , or at least , inferiour to the Apostles , and had his calling , and other ministrations from , and vnder them : as appeareth . 1 Cor. 9. 1. 2 Cor. 10. 16. and 12. 12. Gal. 1. 1. 17. 18. 19. & 2. 6. 7. 8. 9. The Argument to prove this , which he also calles the seal of his Apostl●ship , and his work , Mr B. ●akes , the Lords effectuall working by his Ministery , in the conversion of s●ules vnto God. Touching which his affirmation , I desire first to know whether this conversion of the Corinthians by Paul were to sanctification of life , yea , or no ? If he say no , he gainsayes the Apostle , and his testimony of them : who , writing vnto the Church at Corinthus , confesseth them there “ to be sanctified in Christ Iesus , and Saints by calling : and again advertising them , that † neyther fornica●ours , nor theeves , nor covetous , nor drunckards , nor raylers , nor extortioners should inherit the kingdō of heaven , he testifieth of thē , that such were som of thē , but sayth he , ye ar washed , but ye ar sanctified , but ye are iustified in the name of the L. Iesus , and by the spirit of our God. Besides , if Pauls work were not the work of sanctification vpon the Corinthians , how will M. B. rayse his Argument for the Ministers in England , from their work of sanctification vpon the people there ? If on the other side he say , that the conversion by Pauls ministery was vnto sanctification , he contradicts himself in his own distinction of double conversion , pag. 307 : of his 2. book , where he allowes vnto the Romayns , Corinthians , and Eph●sians , onely the primary conversion , which is to the profession of Christ , but not the secondary , which is to sanctification of life . In which his distinctiō , as he idly imagins a true cōversiō without sanctification , so doth he highly detract from the APOSTLE PAVL , as if he had not converted men to sanctification ; or had gathered Churches of persons unsanctified outwardly , and in the judgement of charity . 2. How can the simple conversion of men prove both Mr Ber. an ordinary Minister , which he would be , and Paul no ordinary Minister , but an extraordinary Apostle , which he would be ? 3. If conversing be a sign of a true Minister , then are both the Bishops in Engl : and the Ministers in the reformed Churches , true Ministers : for without doubt , some of both haue bene instrumēts vnder God of mens conversiō : but that is impossible , considering how the Ministery of the one , wheresoever it comes , eats vp , & destroyes the other . Yea then should both the Ministers of Engl : and we here of the separation ( who haue as M. B : truely answers Mr Smyth , renounced our Ministery received from the Bishops , and do exercise an other by the peoples choise ) be true Ministers of Christ : for as they there avouch this work of conversion , so have wee also here bene made partakers of the same grace of God : & found hi● blessing even that way vpon our Ministery also . 4. As it was the most proper work of an Apostle to convert Heathens to the Lord , and † in Christ Iesus to beget them through the Gospel , and so to plan● Churches , not reioycing in the things already prepared by others , but to preach the gospel , even where Christ had not been named : so is it on the other side the Pastors work to feed thē that are already begotten , converted , & praepared : and therefore the Apostle Paul comprehends the whole Pastours , and Elders duty vnder the “ fee●ing of the flock , all and every part whereof he avoucheth in the iudgement , and evidence of charity , to be purchased with the blood of Christ. And what is a Pastour , but a sheepheard ? and over what flock is a sheepheard set , but over a flock of sheep ? and who are sheep , but they which haue layd asyde their goatish , and swynish nature ? which till men haue learnt to do , they are rather swyne , and goats , then sheep , and so are they , which keep them , rather swyneheards , and goteheards , then sheepheards . But here two exceptions made by Mr Bernard , in his second book must be satisfied . The former is , that , the Pastour is to feed such litle ones , as are borne in the Church : the other , that he is to reclaym such vnto sanctification , as fall to wickednes . To the former exception I do answer . First , that Paul in the place in hand , rayseth no argument at all from any work vpon the ●●●l● ones born in the Church of Corinth , but vpon the men of riper years , whom he turned from idolatry to the true God. 2. Even ●●●l● ones born in the Church , may in their order , and after their manner , be sayd to be converted , or turned vnto the Lord , or born agayne , which are all one : otherwise being * by nature children of wrath , “ born in iniquity , and conceived in sin , how could they be reputed * holy ? yea how could they possibly be saved , or enter into Gods kingdō ? Ioh. 3. 5. And since you graunt Mr B. that the Pastor is to feed those litle ones , do you not therein acknowledge they are converted , or borne a new ? In the preface of your book you would haue men begotten after they were born : and here you will haue them fed before they be borne . Now for those little ones , as wee are to repute them holy in regard of the Lordes covenaunt , and do therefore set his seale vpon them , so are their parents even from their cradle to * bring them vp in instruction , & information of the Lord : and so to prepare them for the publique ministery : vnto which if they in their riper yeares give obedience in any measure , they are so to be continued in the Church : if other-otherwise , they are in due time , as vnprofitable branches to be lopped of , and so cease to be of the Pastours charge . Secondly for men falling into wickednes in the Church ; if they continue obstinate , and irreclamable , then are they in order to be consured , and so the Pastour is discharged of them : if on the contrary , God vouchsafe them repentance , this cannot be called a conversion of them to sanctification , but a “ restoring , or recovering of them out of some particular evill , or evils , into vvhich , through infirmity , they are falln . So that the doctrine stands sound , for any thing that Mr Bernard hath sayd , or that eyther he , or any other man can say , that the Pastours office stands in feeding , not in converting : as also that Pauls scale , and work , was not the bare conversion of the Corinthians , but their conversion from heathenism , plantation into a Church , and these with the signes of an Apostle , even signes , and wonders , and great works , 2 Cor. 12. 12. Lastly , that the simple be not deceived , and eyther give honour where it is not due ; or give it not , where it is due , let them consider , that the conversion of a man is no way to be ascribed to the order or office eyther of Apostles , or Pastours , but onely to the word of God , which by the inward work of the spirit is † the power of God to salvation , to them that beleeve : it is * the law of the Lord , that converts the soule . The *‘ word of the kingdome is that good seed , which being sown in good ground prospereth to the bringing forth of fruit to life , whether he that sow it be in a true office , or in a false office , or in no office at all . And though it be true , which Mr B. saith in his “ former book , that the Ministers in England do preach as publik Officers of that Church , yet doth their Office confer , or help nothing at all to the conversion of men . It is the blessing of God vpon the mayn truthes they teach , not vpon their office of Preisthood , which converts : which truthes if they taught without their office , eyther before they were called to it , or being deprived of it , would without doubt be as effectuall , as they are , yea , & much more , by the blessing of God ; as appears in this , that such amōgst them , as make least account of their office formally received from the Prelates , are the most profitable instruments amongst the people : where on the contrary , the professed formalists cleaving vnto their office , and order canonically , are generally vnprofitable eyther for the conversion , or confirmation of any to , or in holines . To conclude then , the turning of men vnto holynes of life , is no iustification of your office of ministery , or calling vnto it , but of such truthes , as are taught amongst you : which all men are bound to hold , and honour , as we also do : though we disclaym the order , and power , in and by which they are ministred . The seventh , and last argument Mr B. takes from certayn properties of true sheepheards , layd down , Ioh. 10. which he also affirmeth , the Ministers of the Church of England have : the first whereof is , that they go in by the dore , Iesus Christ , that is , by his call , and the Churches , which ( as he sayth ) he hath proved at large . In so saying he speaks at large : let him prove , that the Bishop ▪ or Patron , or eyther of them , is in Christs place set by him to chuse Ministers : or that they are the Church , to which he hath committed the power of calling and choosing them , and answer the Reasons brought to the contrary : otherwise his large proving will appeare but a large boasting : and he will give men occasion to remember the proverb , It is good beating a proud man. The 2. property wherewith he investeth them , is , that the porter openeth vnto them : by which porter Mr Smith means the Church , for which Mr B ▪ reviles him out of measure ; making the porter invisibly Gods spirit , visibly the authority committed by the Church vnto some for admitting men into the house , the Church of God , which sayth he , is a sensible exposition according to the custome with us , and in Iudaea . As there are many true ministers ( in respect of men ) which enter not in at all by the spirit of God , or any motion of it , as it was with Iudas , & is with all hypocrites , who for by-respects take that calling vppon them : so is Mr Smithes exposition making the Church the porter far more probable then yours , who make the porter , the authority , of the Church cōmitted to some for the admission of men . Is not the porter a person rather then a thing ? And who that hath but common sense , will not rather by the porter vnderstand the person or persons having authority , then the authority , which he , or they have ? And if you Mr B. had but remembred , what you write of the properties of the Church pag. 237. 138. making as here you do , the porter , or authority of the Church a property of a sheepheard , you would ( I suppose ) in modesty have forborn the charging of Mr Smith to have his braynes intoxi●ated by his new wayes , & to be madded by his own fantasies in religion , for wryting in this poynt , as he doth . And for the thing it self , it is evident , that Christ Iesus is properly the sheepheard of the sheep , here spoken of : and that therefore the authority of the Church can be no porter for hi enterance , or admission . I do therefore rather think , that by the porter is meant God the father , whose care , and providence is ever over his flock , who therefore hath called , and appoynted his sonne Iesus Christ to be that good sheepheard , who gave his life for his sheep . And if you will apply this to ordinary Pastours , and their calling , then sure by the porter must be meant such , as have received this liberty , & power from Christ by the hands of his Apostles , for the chusing , and appoynting of ministers , which I am sure , of all others , are not the Romish ▪ or English Bishops . Christ would never have the wolves to appoynt his sheep their sheepheards . The 3. property of good sheepheards which you chalenge to your selves , is , that they call their own sheep by name , that is , they take notice of their people ▪ of their growth in religion ●●d do abyde with them , diligently watching over their flockes : as by true and faithfull promise made in the open congregation they be bound in their ordination . It must here be observed , as before , that Christ speaks onely of himself properly ; for of him onely , it can be sayd , that the sheep a● his own : the people are very improperly called the Ministers sheep : & Christ sayth not vnto Peter † feed thy sheep , but my sheep . 2. To take your own exposition Mr B. how can your Praelates , whom in the 6. Argument you make sheepheards , call their sheep by name , or take notice of , & watch over their whole Diocesan , and Provinciall flocks ? Yea if your self or any one amongst you , take notice of your people , as the flock of Christ , and of their growth in religion , they take notice of that which is not . I speak of the flock , though I doubt no● but there are some sheep straying from the right fould , in your heards . Of the abyding of your Ministers with their flockes , wee shall speak hereafter : onely this in the mean while , that considering how many flocks you your self Mr B. have forsaken , me thinks you should haue forborn , in wisdome , to make this one property of a true sheepheard . A 4. property of a good sheepheard , you say , you have , which is , to lead forth your sheep , viz , from pasture to pasture , from milk to strong meat , &c. There are many faire , and wholsome pastures in the feild of Gods word , into vvhich you do not lead your sheep , no nor so much as point to them with the finger : neyther indeed dare you , because they are hedged in with humain authority , your statutes , & canons ecclesiastical . Nay all your care is to keep your people from the knowledg of them , least they should break through those thorny hedges , at which you stick . The 5. and last property for which you commend your selues , is , your going before the flockes , that is , in godly conversation . As I acknowledge the vnblameable conversation of many amongst you , so do many Papists , Anabaptists , and other vile haeretiques , and schismatiques walk as vnblameably this vvay , as you ; and yet are they not true sheepheards of Christs sheep . But by the sheepheards going before the sheep in this place is meant , as I take it , partly the care of the minister in governing the people ; partly , his constancy in danger , to which he exposeth himself in the forefront ; and in these respects , he is sayd to goe before the flock . Now f●ll ●ll do these properties agree vvith the Ministers , for whome Mr Bernard pleadeth . Who as they govern not the people at all , but are themselves & the people with them vnder the government of their Diocesan and Provinciall Pastours : so do they in the tyme of danger most perfidiously forsake their flockes : wherein their sin is the greater , considering the faythfull promise , which you your self testify they make in the open congregation , diligently to watch over their flockes . Now howsoever , that which hath been spoken vvill appear , I doubt not , sufficient to force Mr B. from this 10 of Iohn , yet bycause he d●●ms it so strong an hold for him , as we cannot overthrow it , we will adventure a litle further vpon it , and see whither there be not to be found in it sufficient of the Lords munition , not on●ly to batter the wall , but even to rase the foundation of the ministery of England for which he pleadeth . First then , all true sheepheards are set over flocks of * sheep to feed them . But the ministers in England were not set over flocks of sheep , but indeed over heards of swine , goates , and dogges with some few sheep scattered amongst them . Which the wild , & filthy beastes push worry , and defile . Therfore the ministers of England are not true sheepheards . 2. True sheepheards enter in by the dore Christ , v. 2. 7. that is by the meanes , which his Apostles at his appoyntment , haue commended vnto the Churches , act . 6. 2. 3. 4. 5. & . 14. 23. But the ministers in England enter into their charges by the presentatiō of a Patron , the institutiō of a Praelate , & the inductiō of an Archdeacō , which is not the dore opened by Christ , for the sheepheard to enter by , but a lather set vp by Antichrist wherby to clime over the fold . 3. The shepheard is by his office to feed and govern the flock , as Mr B : himselfe testifieth from this scripture . But as seeding , that is , reaching , or preaching vnto the people ( as is his meaning ) is no part of the parish Preists duety , but a casual , and super-erogarory work : so are they altogether stript of government ; and therefore no true sheepheards of Christs flocks . Lastly , the good sheepheard seing danger towards the sheep ▪ will rather give his life then ●lee ; where on the contrary , the hireling s●ing the wolf comming , sleeth , because he is an hyreling . ver . 11. 12. 13. wherevpon it followeth , that the ministers Mr B. cheifly meanes , leaving their flocks vpon the Bishops vngodly suspensions , and deprivations , as vpon the ba●king of a wolfe , do evidently proclaym to all the world , that they are no good sheepheards , but hyrelings . And so far am I perswaded of hundreds amongst them , that , I doubt not , but if they thought in their harts , they were by Christs appointment set in their charges , and by him cōmaunded there to minister , they would never so fowly , as they do , forsake their flocks vpon the suspension , or deprivation of a prophane Praelate , or Chauncelour , for refusing conformity or subscription , to their popish devises . When DAVID was in his greatest trials , and that his enemies laboured most , eyther to frustrate , or deprive him of his kingdom , and so to turn his glory into shame , his comfort was , that God had * set him as his King vpon Syon , the mountayn of his holynes : and that the Lord had chosen , or separated him vnto himself . Likewise vvhen Iakob was in that great both danger , and fear of his brother Esau , the thing that susteyned him , was , that †‘ God had sayd vnto him , return unto thy country , and to thy fathers kindred , & I will do the good . And as it was with these two , so is it with all the servants of God both in their generall , & speciall callings . When they haue assurance by the word , and spirit of God , that he is the authour of their calling , then do they with patience , and comfort of the H. Ghost suffer such trials , and afflictions , as are incident therevnto : where on the contrary , wanting thi● assurance , they are soon discouraged even in the good things they do , if persequutions do arise ; and being without the Lords calling , no marvayl though they want his comfort . The Apostle Paul advertiseth the “ Elders of Ephesus , that they are made overseers or Bishops , of the flock , by the H. Ghost , and thereupon takes occasion to exhort them to all vigilancy , & faythfulnes against the invasion of such wolves , a● should enter in to devour the flock . Now if those men of whom I speak , be perswaded that they at placed in their charges by the H. Ghost , how do they forsake thē not being by him displaced , or do they think the H. Ghost lisplaceth them for their weldoing , or for their refusing to do evil , as to sub●ctibe , conform , and the like ? They speak of the seal of their Ministery , and of their inward calling , and of the peoples acceptation , and of many things more , very plausible to the multitude ; but in the day of their triall , it appeares , what small comfort they have in all these : and as is their coming in , so is their going out : since they entered not in by the dore , no mervayl though they suffer themselves to be thrust out by the window , or to be tumbled over the wall , or otherwise to be discharged vpon some small , and sleighty occasion . But * suppose ( say you ) a false enterance , yet that no more disanulls the ministery , then doth a faulty enterance to mariage , disanul that ordinance between two conioyned to be lawful man , and wife . But first , I deny your very office of ministery in it self to be a spirituall ordinance of God , as is mariage a civill ordinance . 2. If one of these two persons were vncapable of mariage , ther would follow a nullity : and so is it with you , where your parish assemblies are all of them vncapable of the ministery of Christ , and the ministrations thereof . 3. If this mariage were made without the free consent , and choise of the one party , were it not to be disanulled ? and this is your case , if you consider it , where the minister is put vpon the people , without their free choise , and election . Lastly , if two persons were maryed with this condition , that they should leave one another vpon the imperious commaund of some great man , for some small , and sleighty matter , or other ; were this true , and lawfull mariage ? And is not this the estate of your Ministers , and people vnder their imperious Lords the Prelates ? by whom they are in continuall danger of divorce , for want of canonicall conformity in some triviall , and trifling ceremony . Thus much of this similitude , as also of this matter . That which comes next into consideration , is the poynt of succession : wherein , in the first place , answer must be given to a demaund made by M. B. in his † 2. book : in which many others also think there is much weight : and that is , why we hold , and reteyn the baptism received by succession , and not the Ministery ? For answer vnto him I would know of him , whether the Church of England do still , ( or did at the first ) reteyn the ministery of the Church of Rome , or no ? If he say it doth , then I would entreat him , and others not to take it ill , if we call and account them Preists ; for such are the Romish Ministers . 2. How can the Church of England forsake the Church of Rome , and reteyn the Ministery which is in the Church , as in the subiect ? especially if the Ministery make the Church , as Mr Bernard affirms : for then a true Ministery must needs make a true Church : and communion with the Ministery drawes on necessarily communion with the Church . But if on the contrary he affirm , that the Church of England doth renounce the Ministery or Preisthood of the Church of Rome ; then I return his demaund vpon himself , and ask him , why it reteyns the Baptism of Rome ? and so leave him to himself for answer . 2. The Baptism both in England , and Rome , is in the essentiall causes of it , the matter , water , the form , baptizing into the name of the Father , Sonne , and Holy Ghost , Christs baptism , and ordinance , though in the administration it be Antichrists devise : but for the Ministery eyther in Rome , or England it is otherwise . The Ministery of Christ doth summarily , and in the substance of it , consist in the “ feeding of the flock , that is , in providing food for the flock , and in guiding and ordering the same accordingly ; in a word , in preaching , and government , 1 Tim. 5. 17. Put what is this to the Preisthood of England , ( to let passe that of Rome ) vnto which preaching is not necessarily annexed , nor government so much as permitted ? To swear Canonicall obedience , subscribe , conform , read the service book , celebrate mariage , Church women , and bury the dead in form , & order , are essentiall & substantiall parts , or properties of the Ministery there , in the present both practise , and constitution . The vessels of gold , and silver , which were taken out of the temple in the captivity , and caried to Babylon , and there prophaned , might notwithstanding ( being sanctified from their prophanation there ) be lawfully caried back to Ierusalem and set vp in the temple newly built , and imployed , as in former times to Gods service : but had these vessels been broken in peices in Bab●lon , and there ( being mingled with brasse , and iron , & such b●se mettall ) been cast in another mould , they could not th●n have ob●●●ned th●● former place in the temple , nor there have been 〈…〉 d for the holy ministration . Now such is the difference between the Baptism , and Ministery , both in the Romish , and English Church . To form●r , as a vessel of the Lords house , may with the Lords people be brought back from Babylon spirituall to the new Ierusalem and there may ( being sanctified by repentance ) serve , and be of 〈…〉 to all the ends and purposes for which God hath appointed it . But for the Ministery , or Preisthood , eyther in the one , or other , it is in it selfe no vessell of the Lordes house ; it is neyther made of the mettall , which the Lord hath appointed , nor cast in his mould . It is essentially degenerated from that office of Pastourship which Christ the Lord hath set in his house for the feeding of the flock by teaching , and government , as hath been formerly shewed : and is in the true naturall , & canonicall institution of it a very devised patchery , & compound , like “ the image , which the King of Babylon saw in his dream ; save that little , or nothing of it is gold , or silver , but all brasse , iron , & clay , & the like base mettall , & stuffe : fitting right well both in the administration of it vnto the people , and in the subordination vnto the people , and in the subordination vnto the Prelacy , for the exaltation of the man of sinne , which hath for that very purpose devised it , and placed it in the Church for his service : that by it , as by an vnderst●p he might climbe up , & advaunce himself into the throne of iniquity , where he sitts exalted above all , that is called God. 3. The Ministers of the Church now do succeed the * Preists , and Levites vnder the law , as † baptism also comes in the place of circumcision . Now wee read in the scr●p●ures , that such of the ten tribes , as were in Ieroboams idolatrous schism , and apostasie , ( thereby as a branch from the root , cutting off themselves actually from the onely true Church of God , which was radically at Ierusalem , where the Lord had founded his temple , appoynted his sacrifices , and promised his praesence ) that such of them , I sa● , as returned to the Lord by repentance , and ioyned themselves unto the true Church , were , by vertue of the circumcision received in that their apostasie , wherein they had no ●i●le to * the seale of the forgivenes of sinnes ( which circumcision was ) admitted into the tēple , into which , no m●n vncircumcised might enter , and to the participation of the Passeover , † whereof none vncircumsed person might eat . But that any person , should by vertue of his office of Preisthood received in that , or the like apostasie , have entered into the Lord , sanctuary , there to have done the Preists office vpon any repentance whatsoever , had been an intollerable vsurpation , & sacrilegious invasion of the holy things of God : yea the sonnes of Aaron themselves , vnto whom the Preisthood did of right apperteyn , if they thus went astray from the Lord after idols , were for ever debarred from doing the Preists office , notwithstanding any repentance they could make : and were to beare , all their lives long , their iniquity , and shame . Now by that which hath been spoken of circumcision , and the preisthood vnder the law , the reader may easily observe the difference betwixt Baptism , and the Ministery now . The particular application for brevities sake I forbear . 4. and lastly , the difference betwixt Baptism , and the Ministery is exceeding great , in respect of that speciall , and most necessary relation , which the MINISTERY aboue Bap●ism hath vnto the CHVRCH : whether we respect the enterance into it , or continuance in it . Wee do read in the scriptures , that holy men , called thereunto of GOD might lawfully administer BAPTISM vnto fit persons without the consent , or cognition of the Church ; as † PHILIP did the SAMARITANS , and the EUNUCH , ANANIAS SAUL , PETER CORNELIUS , PAUL LIDIA , and the IAYLOUR : but now for the appointing of Ministers without the Churches consent , and choise , that did they not , as the scriptures testify , & M. B. himself cōfesseth . And as the enterance of ordinary officers ( of which we speak ) doth necessarily praesuppose a Church , by whose election , they are to enter , so doth their cōtinuance require a Church , in which , as in a subject , they must subsist , & to which they must minister . For since the † o●●i●● of a Bishop is a work , a man is no lōger a Bb. thē he worketh . It is not with the office of ministery , as it is with the order of knighthood , that once a Minister ever a Minister . The Popish Character is a mere fiction , brought in for the confirmation of the sacrament of orders as they call it . Whensoever the scriptures do mention “ Elders , or Bishops eyther in respect of theyr calling , or ministration , they still speak of them , as in or of such , and such particular Churches , and none otherwise . And to imagine an Elder or Bishop without a Church , is to imagine a Constable without a parrish or hundred ; a Maior or Alderman without a Corporation , or a publique officer without some publique person , or society , whose officer he is . Herevpon also it followeth , that if the Church be dissolved by death , apostacy or otherwise , the Minister ceaseth to be a Minister , bycause the Church ceaseth ; in relation vnto which ( vnder Christ ) his Ministery consisteth : but on the contrary , a baptized person remayns still baptized though the whole Church , yea all the Churches of the world be dissolved , so long as God , & his Christ remayn the same , into whose name he hath been baptized . And of the same consideration is it , that a Minister may ( for some scandalous sin ) be degraded , and deposed from his Ministery , as I have formerly shewed , & as all Churches practise : and so that , which vvas formerly given him , is taken from him , and he no more a Minister , then he was before his caling : yea if he remayn obstinate in his sin , he is to be excommunicated , & so ceasing to be a member , he must needs cease to be a Minister of the Church . But neyther do the scriptures mention , neyther did any Church ever attempt the vn-baptizing of a baptized person . And as a man may justly be deposed from his Ministery , so may he in cases lawfully depose himself , and lay it down : as if by the hand of God , he be vtterly disabled from ministring , as it may come to passe , & oft tymes doth : but for a man to lay down his baptism for any such infirmity , were impious , as it were sacrilegious for the Church to deprive him thereof . To these considerations I might also adde , that if a man forfeyt his Ministery , and so be deprived of it , eyther by deposition , or excommunication , and be afterwards vpon his repentance judged capable of it , he must have a new calling , or a confirmation at the least , answerable vnto a calling : so must it also be with him , that is translated from an inferiour office to a superiour ; but in baptism there may be no such changing , or repetition . The practise were haereticall . Adde vnto these things , that as a man once baptized is alwayes baptized , so is he in all places , and Churches where he comes ( as a baptized person ) to enjoy the cōmon benefits of his baptism , & to discharge the cōmon duties , which depend vpon it . But a Pastour is not a Pastour in every Church , where he comes vpon occasion , neither can he require in any other Church , saving that one , over which the H : Ghost hath set him , that obedience , maintenance , and other respect , which is due to the officers from the people ; neyther stands he charged with that Ministery , and service , which is due to the people from the Officers : & if you Mr B. say otherwise , you make every Pastour a Pope , or vniversall Bishop . “ Epaphras , though he were at Rome , was one of them ( that is a Minister ) of Collossus : so were * the Elders of Ephesus , though they were at Miletum , the Elders of Ephesus onely , but of none other Church ; and charged to feed the flock over which the holy Ghost had set them , but none other ; for over none other had the holy Ghost set them . And as a Maior out of his Corporation , a Shiriffe out of his County , a Constable out of his Parish , or Hundred , is no Maior , Shiriffe , or Cōstable , ( but in relation to that particular body of which he is ) neither can he perform any proper act of his office without vsurpation ; so neyther is a Bishop , or Elder , a Church Officer , save in his owne particular Church , and charge , and in relation vnto it , neyther can he without ambitious vsurpation perform any proper work of his Office , or Ministèry , save in that Church by , and to which , in his ministration , he is designed . And thus much to shew the difference betwixt that relative ordinance of the Ministery , and that personall ordinance of Baptism in the Church ; as also to prove , that we do lawfully , and with good warrant disclaym , and renounce the Ministery received in Rome , & England , notwithstanding we reteyn the Baptism received both in the one , and the other . To which also , I could adde ( if there were need , or vse ) both the judgement of the learned at home , & abroad , and the practise of the reformed Churches , where we live , for the continuing of the Baptism in Rome received , but no more of the Masse preists for Ministers , then of the Masse it self , for which they were ordeyned . But it is more then tyme I come to the mayn controversie about succession ; which might be layd down summarily in these words : whether the reformed Churches were bound to submit ( notwithstanding their separation from Rome ) vnto such ministers onely , as were ordeyned by the Pope , and his Bishops : but for the better clearing of things I will enlarge my speach to these three distinct considerations . First , whether the Ministery be before the Church , or no. 2. Whether the delegated power of Christ for the vse of the holy things of God be given primarily , and immediately to the Church , or to the Ministers ? 3. Whether the Lord haue so linked the Ministery in the chayn of succession , that no Minister can be truely called , and ordeyned , or appointed without a praecedent Minister . Touching the first of these Mr Ber : affirmeth as in his † former book : that the Officers make the Church , and give denomination vnto it : so expresly in his * 2. book , that the Ministery is before the Church . And noting in the same place a two fold raysing vp of the Ministery : the first to beget a Church : the second , when the Church is gathered ; he puts the Ministers in both before the Ch : in the former , absolutely , in the latter , in respect of their Office , and ordination by succession from the first : In which discourse he intermingleth sundry things , frivolous , vnsound , and contradictory . Now for the first entery , I desire the reader to observe with me that the quaestion betwixt Mr Bernard and me is about ordinary Ministers , or officers of the Church , such as were the first Ministers of the reformed Churches , and as Mr B : and I pretend our selves to be : and not about extraordinary Ministers , extraordinarily , miraculously , or immediately , raysed vp as were Adam , and the Apostles by God , and Christ : whom he produceth for examples . Admit the one sort ( being called immediately , and miraculously ) may be before the Church : yet cannot the other , which must be called by men , and those eyther the Church , or members of the Church at the least . Besides , the word Minister extends it self not onely vnto Officers ordinary , and extraordinary , but even to any outward means , whether person or thing , by which the revealed will of God is manifested , and made known vnto men for their instruction , and conversion . Yea it reacheth even to God himself : & so far Mr B. stretcheth it , where he makes * God the first preacher Gen. 2. 3. As though there were a controversy between him , and me , whither God , or the Church were first . I see not but by the same reason he might avouch , that the Ministers of the Church could not all dy , or be deceived , bycause God is free from these infirmityes . It is true which Mr B. sayth , that the word is before the Church , as the seed , which begetteth it , and so is that which brings it , yea whither it be person , or thing , which may also be called a Minister , and be sayd to be sent of God , as it is an instrument to convey , and means to minister the knowledg of the same word , & will of God vnto any . So if any private man , or woman should be a means to publish , or make known the word of God to a company of Turkes , Iewes , or other Idolaters , he or she might truely be sayd to be their Minister , and the Lords Ambassadour vnto thē , as you speak . Yea if they came to this knowledg by reading the Bible , or other godly book , that book or bible , as it served to minister the knowledg of Gods wil in his word might truely in a generall sense be accoūted as a Minister vnto thē . But what were all this to a Church-officer , about whō our quaestiō is ? These things Mr B. shuffles together , but the wise reader must distinguish them , & so doing , he shall easily discover his trisling . The particulars follow . And first he affirmeth , that God made Adam a Minister , to whom he gave a wife to begin the Church , and as Adam was before his wife , so is the Ministery at the first before the Church . If Adams wife began the Church , then is your mayn foundation overthrown ; namely that the ministers make , and denominate the Church , except you will say that Eve was a Minister . Secondly it is not true you say , that God made Adam a Minister , before Eve was created . In the same place you make ( and truely ) a Minister , and Ambassadour which brings the word all one : & vnto whom could Adam eyther minister the word , or be an Ambassadour to bring it before Eve was formed ? There was nothing but bruit beasts , and senceles trees , and to them I suppose he brought it not . The truth is , Adam and Eve were the Ch. not by his , but by her creatiō , which made a company , or society : & thus we are in the first place to consider of them , and of Adam as a teacher in the second place ; the speciall calling here , and ever , following after , and vpon the generall . Of the same force with your first proof is your 2. which you take from Ephes. 4. 11. 12. where it is sayd , God gave some not onely to confirm the Church , but to gather the Saynts to make a Church . To let passe your boldnes with the words , I except against your exposition , & application of them . The word gathering vpon which you insist , is in some bookes turned repayring , and is the same in the Greek with that which is restoring , Gal. 6. 1. of which I have spoken formerly . Againe , Paul in that place speaks not onely of Apostles , & other Ministers of the first raysing vp : for the begetting of Churches : but of Pastours , and Teachers which were taken out of the Church , and of the 2. raysing for the feeding of the flock . You will not deny but the Apostles and brethren at Ierusalem were a Church of God , Act. 1. 15. 16. when as yet no Pastours or Teachers were appointed in it : and how then can your doctrine stand , that the Ministers spoken of Ephe. 4. 11. 12. ( amongst which were Pastours and Teachers ) were before the Church , out of which they were taken , and raysed vp of God to beget a Church ? Yea it is evident that the very office of Pastour vvas not then heard of in the Church ; whereby the falsity of your other affirmation is discovered , to wit , that the Office of such Ministers as are of the second raysing , & which are taken out of the Church , is before the Church . Thirdly , the Apostles themselves ( howsoever extraordinary officers immediately called , and sent forth to beget other Churches both of Iewes , and Gentiles ) were Christians before they were Apostles , and members of the Church before they were Officers . And the scriptures do expresly testify , that † God ordeyned , or set in the Church Apostles , amongst other Officers : and this their setting in the Church doth necessarily praesuppose a Church , wherein they were set , as the setting of a candle in a candlestick , praesupposeth a candlestick : as in deed the Church is the * Candlestick , & the officers the candles , lights , and starres , which are set in it . Lastly , it is a senceles affirmation you make , that a man sent to win people is a minister to the hidden number , not yet called out , which are also his flock potentially though not actually . The “ scriptures , and you accordingly in another place , make it a property of a good Minister to call his own sheep by name , that is , as you expound it , to take notice of his people & of their growth in religion &c. & now here , you wil haue a minister of the hidden number whereof he can take no notice at all : nor can tell whether or no , he shall find one sheep amongst them . Besides you cōmit a Logicall errour in raysing an actuall Minister from the relation he hath vnto a flock potentially : you may as truely affirm , that a single man towards mariage is an housband , and a father , bycause he may have wife , and children . Any man , that vpon a just calling , or occasion , opens ▪ and makes known the Gospel of salvation vnto a company of Turks , or Pagans , may in that generall sense be called the Lords Minister sent vnto them : but a Church Officer , of whō our quaestion is , till he have by his Ministery called , and separated them vnto the Lord , and be by their election , called , and separated to his office , can he neyther be , nor be called . One thing more you adde , which is , that Ministers may be the Church , as they are Christians , and that they are Ministers in respect of an office bestowed upon them in their state of Christianity : wherein you speak ( and that truely ) sufficient to overthrow not onely your particular errour in this place , but well nigh your whole writing . For therevpon it followeth , First that the Church is before the Ministery , bycause men are a Church as they are Christians , & Christians , before they be Ministers . 2. That Ministers make not the Church but become such by an office bestowed vpon them in their state of Christianity , that is , in their Church state . Thirdly , that the Christian brethren though not in office are part of the Church , Math. 18. since even the officers themselves are acknowledged the Church , or of the Church , as they are Christians . I come now vnto the 2. consideration , and do affirm against Mr Ber. that the delegated , and communicated power of Christ is given primarily , and immediately to the Church , and not to the officers . This point I haue formerly handled at large , vnder two generall heads opened in the former part of my † book , vnto which I do entreat the reader to look back , yet will I for further satisfaction breifly annex a few things . First , bycause * vnto the Iewes were of credit committed the Oracles of God , vnto whom also did the covenants apperteyn , and all the priviledges of them , as to the common wealth of Israel . 2. Bycause the Ministers themselves are given to the Church , & the Churches immediately , as the Church is Christs , & Christ Gods. And if this holy thing the Ministery be the Churches immediately , then other things also as well as it , in respect of right , and possession , though she vse the service of the Ministers ordinarily for the dispensation , & exequution of them . It is not denyed , but that the officers in such works , as they perform vnto the Ch●in the name of the Lord , as ofdoctrine , exhortatiō , admonitiō , & the like , stand in a more imediate relatiō vnto the Lord , then the Church doth : but it must also be remembred , that this no more advanceth the order of their Office above the order of the body , then it doth one private bother , performing the same work orderly in the exercise of prophesying , or otherwise . 3. The Officers are to dispense , and exequute the holy things of God , as the servants , & Ministers of Christ , & his Church : and whatsoever they do in their office , they do it , as the servants , and ministers both of Christ and of the Church . Now common sense teacheth men , that , what power , or authority soever the servants , or Ministers of others haue , or vse in their places , that authority and power , they haue first , whose servants and ministers they are : and that therefore the holy things of God are primarily , and immediately the Churches vnder Christ , and in the last place the Officers , as the servants of Christ , and his Church , for execution , in the order , which Christ hath left . The last , & greatest quaestion now comes into handling ▪ namely whether Ministers may be made by such as are no Ministers . For this phrase of making Ministers Mr B. affects much , belike with referēce speciall to the Ministers of England , and Rome , who are fitly sayd to be made by the Bishops , & to be the workmanship of their hāds . Mr Ber. vehemently v●geth the negative part , namely , that no Minister may be made but by a minister : & tying , as he doth the Ch : to the Ministery , & the Ministery to successiō , ther is cause he should . For if the chayr of succession should break , both the Ch : & Ministery of England must fall to the ground . The onely Argument he brings for his purpose , is an historicall narration ( as he speaks ) from time to time , without any one instance to the contrary : & the constant practise of the Church of God from the dayes of Adam hitherto . I desire the Reader in the first place to take knovvledge from me , that I deny not , but confesse , that the Churches of God , more particularly , and the Churches of the new testament continuing , and abyding in that state , † ●ayth , & order , wherein they were set , & established by the Lord in the hands of his servants the Apostles , & E●angelists , were to receive their ministers constantly by successiō , after a sort , namely so far , as that all succeeding Ministers were to be ordeyned by Ministers , and no otherwise . But would any man , save eyther a marked servant of the Pope , or one that cared not what he wrote for some praesent seeming-advantage , argue as this man doth , from the estate of the Churches of Christ , and in particular of the Church at Rome , in Peter , and Pauls time , to the estate , wherein now it is , or was an hundred years since , in which estate we are to consider of it ? But of this more hereafter . The historicall narration before spoken of , Mr B. divides into 4. tymes or ages : the first wherof is from the beginning of the world , till the giving of the law : the 2. from the law , till Christs cōming : the 3. from Christ , till the end of the history of the new testament : the 4 , and last from that tyme , hitherto . Let vs consider of his instances . And first ( sayth he ) God at the worlds beginning , ordeyned Adam in his place ; and till the law did rayse up extraordinary Teachers : whom he also nameth in his 2. book , as Henoh , Noah , Abraham , Isaak , Iakob , Ioseph , Lev● and the rest . As it is true , that all Ministers are both to be called , and ordeyned of God , and ordinary Ministers to be called by the Church , and ordeyned by the Church-officers if there be any in that Ch : by , and to which the latter are called , so neyther doth the age wherein you first instance , draw any such straight line of succession , or conclude any such necessity of ordination by praecedent officers , as you praetend . And that you may more clearly see this , you must take notice of your errour , in affirming , that God raysed vp extraordinary Teachers till the law . The first born in the families were the ordinary Teachers , ordinarily succeeding , til the Levites were appointed : the office of Preisthood being annexed to their birthright . In which respect it was , that God told Cain “ his brothers desire should be vnto him , and that he should rule over him . For which purpose see also Gen. 21. 9. & 25. 31. 32. 33. 34. & 49. 4. with Deut. 33. 8. Adde vnto this also , that the Lord would haue † every first born amongst the chidren of Israel consecrated vnto him : that the Priests , or , ( as it is better turned ) the administers of the holy things which come neare to the Lord , should sanctify themselves : and that ‘* Moses sent the young men of the children of Israel to offer burnt offrings , and sacrifices vnto the Lord. But most evidently doth this appear in that * the Levites were appointed to teach the people , and to offer sacrifices , and to do the service of the children of Israel in the tabernacle of the congregation , for the first born , that openeth the matrice among the children of Israell . And as the first born were the ordinary Teachers successively , before the law , in whose stead the Levites afterwards were appointed ; so was this order in sundry persons , and vpon sundry occasions , broken , and interrupted . As in † CAIN , for his murder : in “ TERAH for his Idolatry : in ‘؛‘ ISMAEL for his mocking : & in * ESAV for his prophanenes . To descend lower . When the order of succession in the Preisthood was so far estalished , as that it did divolve , by the word of God , from the parents vpon the children , as by an haereditary right , yet then wee see , it was sometimes for the sinns of men , broken off , and interrupted . Take for instance Eli , and his house . † The Lord God ●f Israel had sayd , that his house , & the house of his father should walk before him for ever : but now ( the L : saith ) is shall not be ; for them that honour me , I will honour , and they that dispise me , shal be despised . Behold the dayes shall come , that I will cut off the arm of thy fathers house , &c. then he addes , and I will stir me vp a faithful Preist , that shall do according to myne hart , and according to my mynde , &c. which was also especially accomplished in Salomons dayes , when the Preisthood was translated frō Abiathar to Zadock . 1 King. 2. 35. To the same purpose tends that which the Prophets , Ezechiel & Hose threaten , and denounce , against other Preists of Israel , for their idolatrie and other iniquities . * The Levites , ( sayth the Lord ) which went back from me , when Israel went astray , shall bear their iniquity : and they shall not come neare vno me to do the office of the Preist vnto me , &c. And againe by Hose : †‘ bycause thou hast refused knowledge , I wil also refuse thee , that thou shalt be no Preist to mee : and seing thou hast forgotten the Law of thy God , I will also forget thy children . I will change their glory into shame . For the shutting vp of this point ; the Lord Iesus himself comming to repayr the decayed places of Sion , & to enlarge the walles of Ierusalem , did not chuse his Apostles out of the nuber of the Preists , & other ordinary Teachers , but els where They in deed supposed ( as the Prelates , & Preists now do ) that the Lord could neyther propagate , nor mainteyn his Church but by them , bycause they were † the childrē of Abrahā : but Iohn Baptist tells them , & all other with thē , that hang vpō the same , or like lyne of personall succession , which they did , that except they prevent the Lords wrath , and bring forth fruits worthy amendement of life , he will with the ax of his wrath hew them down , & cast them as vnfruitfull trees into the fyre : raysing vp vnto Abraham seed , and children of the very stones . If now the Lord haue thus ever and anon , from the beginning of the world , chaunged the course , and current of succession , for these sinns , namely , murther , idolatry , persequution , profanenes , and the like ; is it possible that the stream should still run , by the Lords appointment , without stop , or change , for so many hundred yeares , in the Romish Church , where these , and all other sinns , and iniquities haue abounded ? and where they all , as so many members cōpact together , make the man of sum cōplete ? Is the Lord l●s●● zealous now a dayes , then in times past of the honour of his name , and ordinances ? Or hath S. Peter procured some Charter of impunity for his successours the Popes of Rome , what impieties soever they haue faln , or can fall into ? Or doth this man think by any plea he can make for them to hold them in possessiō of that right which they haue so notoriously forfeyted so many wayes , and for so many yeres , and whereof the word of God hath so evidently disseyzed them ? For conclusion of this particular , the Apostle Paul foretelling the generall * apostasy of that man of sin , the child of perdition , advancing himself above all that is called God , or is worshipped , addeth that the Lord will destroy him with the spirit of his mouth . In which words we are to observe , first , the vniversality of the apostasie , advancing it self above all that is called God ; and secondly , the manner of restauration of the Church , which is to be by the Lord , & the spirit of his mouth , where if it were to be by the ministers of Antichrists making , or the Popes calling , the● should the man of sinne consume himself . Ioyn with this scripture another of the same nature , wherein the H : Ghost , speaking by the mouth of Iohn , of the same generall apostacy , foretells , how God would rayse up his “ two witnesses , which should prophesy against the beast , which came out of the bottomelesse pit , and against all the abhominations of Antichrist : whereas , by the doctrine of successiō , no witnesses should be raysed up against Antichrist but by himself . Now by these scriptures , & instances it appears , that the stream of succession hath not run so currantly from the dayes of Adam hitherto , as Mr B : praetendeth , but that it hath sundry tymes been stopped , and turned by , & that most specially in the Romish apostasy . The thing I purpose in the next place is , to prosequute certayn Arguments of Mr Smythes , and the rather bycause himself hath in a measure forsaken this truth with others ( adding also some others vnto them ) to prove , that the ministery ( and so other ▪ the holy things of God , ) is not tyed by Christ to the succession of office , or order , but of faith . The Arguments I vvill take vp as Mr Bernard together with their answers layes them downe in his 2. book . Of the first Argument , I have spoken in another place . The 2. is , that if Christs ministeriall power be by succession , to the Pope , Bishops , or Praesbytery , then the Ministery of Rome is a true Ministery ▪ Mr Bern : answer is , that he meanes true succession , which is both personall , and hath with it a true office , true doctrine , true sacraments , and prayer , about which Christs true ministers are exercised : but for the Romish Ministery it is idolatry , and superstition , and the men appointed there to ordeyned sacrifising Preists . This answer of yours Mr B. puts me in mind of a practise of children , who when they have a long while busyed themselves in drawing the best formes , and figures they can in dust , and ashes , do at the last with one dash of their hand deface all , & vndo , what they haue formerly done . And that this childish dealing you use , no reader that considers the quaestion in hand , can be ignorant of . The quaestion then between him , & me , is not of such a succession personall , as hath joyned with it successiō in a true office , true doctrine , true sacraments , & prayer , wherin the minister is in any measure faithfully exercised : but generally , whether succession of persons be of such absolute necessity , as that no minister can in any case be made but by a minister , & more specially , whither the first ministers of the reformed Ch : , or of such , as come out of the confusiō of Antichrist , must of necessity be ordeyned by the Pope , & his Bishops , or minister by vertue of their ordinatiō so received . And that this succession by , & from the Romish ministery , is that Mr Ber : pleads for , his writings manifest : as first , that , as in all the Apostles time the Ministery was by succession ; ministers , as it were , begetting Ministers by ordination , so after their tyme the like succession hath been kept frō tyme to tyme , Bishop after Bishop , and Ministers ordeyned by them : which the Catalogue of thē , & stories of tymes , on which we must rely , where the script : cease to make further relation , do witnesse : for the continuation of which succession to the worlds end , he alledgeth Math. 28. 20. odiously perverting to the Pope , and his shavelings , the promise , which Christ there made , to be with his Apostles , & other faithfull ministers , teaching the things , which he had commanded , and dispensing his other ordinances accordingly . Answerable vnto which , is his other saying ( in which , his termes , and meaning do well suit ) that Church-men ever ordeyned Ministers , & not the lay people . To this also let his inferēce be added in another place pag. 311. that , if we receive , and hold our baptism from Rome , why not our ordination also ? And in his former book most clearly condemning our Ministers for being made by such , as are no Ministers : contrary to the constant practise of the Church of God from the dayes of Adam hitherto . And agayn , that this custome of ordeyning Ministers did continue in the times following the Apostles tymes ( as before it had done ) in all the Churches of Christendom , as ecclesiasticall wryters do make mention : and so through pure , & impure Churches ▪ and that , God in the last reformation of his Church , would not break this order ; but choose men , who were Bishops ordeyned even in the Popish Church , so that they might ordeyn fit persons afterwards . And this he tels the Reader he speaks of the Church of England , as in deed he may wel ; for other Ch : departed frō Rome , would be loath to joyn in his plea. And lastly , he chargeth vs with great praesumption , for daring to break this order of God , continued five thowsand , and six hundred years . Novv what can be more vayne ? The very poynt which MR. BERNARD is to prove , and from which he brings his historicall narration from Adam to this day , is , that God hath continued the course of succession in the Romish Ministery , and that from , and by it successively , the Ministery in England hath been , and is at this day , continued . And yet in his answer to Mr Smyth , he is driven to affirm , that he hath no referēce at all to the Romish Ministery , which he accounts Idolatry , and superstition : but meanes such a personal succession , as hath ioyned with it a true office , true doctrine , and the like . He will haue succession continued from the dayes of Adam hitherto ; and this to haue been the order of God for five thowsand , and six hundred yeres : and that he chose Bishops ordeyned in the Popish Church , to ordeyn fit persons in the Church of England : and yet Mr Smith is to know he speaks not at all of the succession in the Romish Ministery , which is idolatry , and superstition . Now that the more simple reader may not loose himself in this mans maze , and that he may the better know the state of the quaestion , and judge of it , I will here interpose some few thinges , touching succession and ordination accordingly . First then wee acknowledge , that in the right and orderly state of things , no Ministers are to be ordeyned , but by Ministers , the latter by the former in the Churches , where they are , and over which the holy Ghost hath set them . And so the Apostles being generall , and extraordinary men ( vnto whom the Evangelists also were joyned for assistance to “ water where they planted , and to finish the works , by them begun ) as they had † the care of all the Churches committed vnto them , and were charged with them , so were they also to * ordeyn the Elders and Bishops in them , and the people bound to wayt theyr comming for that purpose , as Mr Ber. truly affirmeth : as were also these Bishops , or Elders to ordeyn others in the Churches over which they were set , & so others after them in the order appoynted by Christ in his Apostles ; with whō also he promised to be alwayes till the worlds end , in this and the like their holy ministrations . But is the consequence good , that , bycause the Apostles and Evangelists were to ordeyn Elders in the Churches by Cōmission from Christ , and that the people converted from Indaism , or Paganism , were to wayt till they came to ordeyn them theyr ministers , therefore the Pope , and Prelates vnder him have cōmission from Christ to ordeyn his priests and that the people converted from Antichristianism are to wayt 〈◊〉 they come to ordeyn them their Ministers , or till they send them such as they have alwayes in store ordeyned to their hands ? or that bycause the Apostles , and Evangelists had Christs promise to be with them alwayes , that therefore the Pope , Cardinalls , Lord Bishops , and Lord Suffragans have interest in the same promise . It might asvvell be concluded , that as the Lords people were bound to obey , and submit vnto the former in their times , so are they now to submit vnto , and obey the Pope , and his vnderlings . And yet is this the very mark Mr Bernard aymes at in his long drawn historicall narration : this is the force of his argument , and his manner of arguing . If this lyne hold from Peter to the Pope , and from the Pope to his clergy , and so successively to the Ministery of England , then it stands vpright ; if it break , then doth the ministery of England ▪ ( which as Mr Bernard truely , & honestly confesseth is thus raysed ) fall flat to the ground : as indeed it doth according to the foretelling of the Angel , * it is fallen , it is fallen , Babylon the great City . But here it wil be demaunded of me , how the Lords people comming out of Babylon , separating from Rome , are to obteyn , and enjoy Ministers . Surely one of these three wayes . Eyther by the extaordinary , immediate , or miraculous designation of God ; or by succession ; or by the same peoples choise , or appointment , to which they are to minister . To expect ministers by the first meanes were fancy ▪ and presumption : so that by one of the two other wayes they must come necessarily . The power of the holy things of God , & so specially of erecting the minstery , is eyther tyed to the order of office , & so to the order of to the Popeship , & Praelacy under it , or els to the faith of the people of God forsaking Babylō , & joyning together in the covenant of Abrahā , & fellowship of the gospel . The former of these though Mr B : be drivē to plead it in the proof of succession , yet in the defence of it , he is forced to disclaym , & disavow : yeelding the Romish Ministery to be Idolatry , and superstition , and that he speaks of such a succession , as requires with it a true office , true doctrine , true sacraments , and prayer . pag. 188. and agayn that he meanes by succession a continuance of Gods ordinance by persons elected thereto from tyme to tyme , being of spirituall kindred by the fayth of doctrine , by which the ordinance is vpheld , and true succession mainteyned . pag 190. With which graunt of his I might rest , as indeed wherein he yeeldeth the whole cause , and cutts off , as it were , with his own hands , the cord of true succession in the Ch : of Rome ; making it to fayl , when the truth of doctrine , and of election fayled in the same Ch : . But bycause it is so common a thing with him , to say , and vnsay ▪ and to say agayn the same things , eyther forgetting himself , or thinking others forgets , or bycause he would say something to every thing , though never so contrary both to the truth , and himself in another place , I will presse Mr Smythes other Arguments . The third of which is , that by the doctrine of succession men are bound absolutely to sin , in joyning to the sinns of the Minister . This is sayth Mr B : to take vnproved a principle of Brownism to overthrow a truth , namely , that a man cannot receive the holy things of God , but he must needs sin with others . And is it so indeed ? Doe not the scriptures every where teach men to * avoyd , reiect , and hold accursed , false teachers , haeretiques , and idolaters ? and † not to partake in the sinne of others , eyther by practising them , or giving consent , or countenance vnto them ? Wherevpon it followeth , that the doctrine , which binds the Ministery , and other holy things of God vnto succession , and thereby to partake with haeretiques , and false teachers , or at least with such in their ministration , as have received the power , and authority by which they minister frō the Pope , and his Praelacy , bynds men to sinne in joyning with the sinns of the Ministers . Of the Iewish Church & Preisthood ( which Mr Ber●here objects ) I haue spoken formerly , and do now adde , that , as no man is now so tyed to any Church , or Ministery in the world , as was every faythfull person in the world then to that one temple , and Preisthood at Ierusalem , so neyther could any man then , without sinn , communicate with an ●aereticall , or idolatrous Preist , especially ministring in a false office , and by the like calling , and cōmission , which the Ministers both in Rome , and England doe . In the 4. Argument Mr Ber : deales dishonestly . Mr Smiths inference vpon the doctrine of succession , is , that then the Lord hath made the Ministers Lords over the Church , so that the Church cannot have or enjoy any of the Lords ordinances , or holy things , except they will consent vnto them ; for the holy things are in their power . Now Mr Ber. onely trifles about the word Lord , and passeth by the substance of the inference which is most sound vpon the doctrine . For if the Lords ordinances and holy things be tyed to the Ministers , then without their consent there can be no vse of them . And so where Ministers eyther are not , or not willing to cōmunicate them , there can be no Church , no electiō of Ministers , no keyes of the kingdom , and so no salvation : as I have formerly manifested vpon Math. 16. 19. The sum of Mr Smithes 5. Argument is , that then the Pope may excommunicate the whole Church vniversall ; the Bishops their whole Dioceses , and Provinces : and the Praesbytery the particular Church whereof it is . Your answer Mr Bernard , is , that this were to do the Pope a great favour to prove him to have an vniversall power , &c. and 2. that by this sequell of Mr Smythes , this absurdity would follow , that the Bishop might cast out the Church , out of the Church . It is you that do the Pope this great favour , though you would not own it . For if the Ministery make the Church , and that Rome be a true Church , then must the ministery of Rome be true , specially of the Pope , from which the other is derived as from the head . Agayn , if the ordinatiō by the Bishops in the impure Church of Rome be the Lords order , as you expresly affirm p. 145. of your former book , then must the Popes vniversall power , by which the Bishops doe vniversally ordeyn , be the power of the Lord which from him he hath received for that purpose . They which hold , that the power of the keyes was given first & immediately to the Apostle Peter , & so to the Popes of Rome his successours , they hold that the Pope may excommunicate the whole Church : so they which hold the Bishop , or his substitute to be meant , where Christ sayth , tell the Church , they must necessarily hold , that the Bishop or his substitute may excommunicate his whole Province , or Dioces ; and so of them which hold the Praesbytery to be the Ch : there spoken of , for the particular assembly over which it is . The Church there meant may excōmunicate any brother , or brethren ( whom , or how many soever ) that refuse to hear her : as the Church of Corinth , to whō Paul writ might judge all them which were within , and not without , & vnder the Lords iudgement The substance of the seventh , & last objection , is , ( for the 6. hath no weight in it ) that the doctrine of succession overthrowes it self , and the Reason is , bycause one POPE doth not make another by ordination whyles he lives , but the Cardinals do by Election make the new Pope after the death of the former . So that the Pope receiving his ministeriall power from the Cardinals , cannot give it to them , and so to the rest of the Clergy in Rome , and England , neyther can it descend from Christ through the Apostles , and so through him to the other inferiour ministers , but as in a chayn if the highest link be broken , the rest which hang vpon it must needs fall : So if there be a breach of this chayn of succession from the Apostles to the ministery of Rome , and of England ( which descends of it lineally ) in the higest link , the Pope , all the rest of the chayn that hangs vpon it , except it be otherwise vpheld , must needs fall flat vpon the ground . It is true which Mr Ber : answers that election , and succession by ordination may stand together in the ministery , but in this case it cannot , except the Pope should by the election of the Cardinalls , or others , ordeyn his succession whilest himselfe survived . Now in this last answer Mr B : challengeth his adversary to be wilde in wandering , and to have lost his quaestion , in concluding that the doctrine of succession is a false doctrine , where he should prove that Christs power is not given to the principall members . But this challenge is both vnjust , & vnadvised . Vnjust , bycause succession from the popish Church , and Clergy is made by M : Ber : in his former book the foundation of the ministery of England , and so of the Church : the Church by his affirmation being made by the ministers , and the Ministers by such Bishops as were ordeyned in the popish Church . Vnadvised bycause these two poynts , do depend ech vpon other necessarily . For if Christs power be tyed to the officers whether principall , or inferiour , then must it come to the ministery , and Church of England by succession : if it come not by succession from , or by the Pope , and his Clergy , then must it come by the same successiō of fayth , & doctrine vnto the children of Abraham , two or three , or more faithfull persons joyned together in the covenant , and fellowship of the gospel . And for the quaestion in Mr Bernards own words ( remitting the Reader to such places as prove , that a company of faythfull people in the covenant of the gospell , though without officers are a visible Church , that they haue immediate right to the holy things of God ; and that the keyes for bynding , and loosing were given to Peters confession ) I will adde onely one Argument , and so proceed . It hath been sundry tymes observed , and proved by the “ scriptures , that the officers of the Church , are the servants of the Ch : and their office a service of the Lord , and of his Church . Wherevpon it followeth necessarily , that what power the officers have , the body of the Church hath first , and before them , the very light of nature , & cōmon sense teaching it , that what power , or authority soever the the servants of any body , or persons have , the body or persons whose servants they are , must have it first , and they by thē . And for this purpose let it be further observed , that no power at all came vnto the Church of the Iewes by the Levites : not the vse of the sacrament of circumcision ; no nor of the very sacrifices : which were offered by the first born in the family , and that even after the peoples comming out of Egypt vnder the hand of Moses , till Levi was called to the Preisthood . Ex. 13. 2. & 24. ● . I proceed . If the Ministery of the reformed Churches must be by succession , or ordination by Popish Bishops , then must the same office of Ministery be continued from the one Church to the other : as indeed it was withall the Ministers of the Church of England at the first ; who without any new eyther calling , or ordination ( which depends vpon it ) continued their office , and place formerly received ; there being onely a reformation of some of the grossest evills , like the healing of Iobs soars , as Mr B. speaketh : as the office of Iustice-ship , or the like in the common wealth , may be continued the same in the same persons individually , though by edict of Parliament , or other superiour power , there be a surceasing of some mayn act of it . Further to ty the Ministery thus to succession , is to ty the Lords sheep to submit to no other sheepheards but such as the wolves haue appointed . And if a company of Gods people in Rome , or Spayn , should come out of Babylon , and no consecrated Preist amongst them , they must , by this doctrine , enjoy no Ministers , but such as the Romish wolves will ordeyn , & do , according to their Popish , & prophane order . To these things I might also adde , that look what power any of the Popes Clergy receive from him , the same he takes from them & deprives them of , where they withdrew their obedience , or separate from that Church : as also that the ordinations in Rome , by their own Canons , are very nulli●yes , and many the the like exceptions pleaded by learned protestants against the Romish preisthood , and this Romish doctrine of succession : but that which hath been spoken is sufficient in the generall , and I hasten to the third and last meanes of the three , by which Gods people after Antichrists defection are to injoy the ministery , and other of Christs ordinances . And for our better proceeding herein , I will first consider , what ordination is : and 2. how far the brethren may goe by the scriptures , and the necessary consequences drawn from them , in this and the like cases , in the first planting of Churches , or in the reducing of them into order , , in or after some generall confusion . The Prelates , and those which levell by their lyne do highly advance ordination , and far above the administration of the word , sacraments , and prayer : making it , and the power of excommunication the two incōmunicable prerogatives of a Bishop in their vnderstanding above an ordinary minister : But surely herein these cheif ministers do not succeed the cheif ministers , the Apostles , except as darknes succeeds light , and Antichrists confusion Christs order . Where the Apostles were sent out by Christ , there was no mention of ordination ; their charge was to † go teach all nations , and baptize them : and that the Apostles accounted preaching their principall work , and after it baptism , & prayer the scriptures manifest . And if ordination had been in those dayes so pryme a work , surely Paul would rather haue tarryed in Crete himself to have ordeyned Elders there , and haue sent Titus an inferiour officer about that inferiour work of preaching , then haue gone himself about that , leaving Titus for the other . But bycause Mr Bernard ( with whom I deal ) when he writes most advisedly , preferrs * preaching to the first place , and the administration of the sacraments , and prayer to the next , passing by ordination as not worthy the naming amongst these principall works , I wil therefore leave it to be honoured by them , whom it most honoureth , and for whose ease , and profit it best serveth , and will consider in what place he setteth it . He then pleading , that as well the ordination ; as the baptism received in Rome is to be held , makes ordination & the calling of the Ministers all one . Wherein as he vnfitly compares together things not to be compared , to wit , baptism into the name of the true God , & ordinatiō , into a false office ( except he hold a masse-preisthood a true office ) so doth he vnadvisedly confound a part with the whole , yea the last , and least part , as ordination is : and which doth indeed depend vpon the peoples lawfull election , as an effect vpon the cause , by vertue of which it is justly administred , & may be thus described , or considered of vs : as the admission of , or putting into possession , a person lawfully elected , into , or of a true Office of Ministery . For example , the Maior , Baylife , or other cheif officer in a priviledged City , or Corporation , is chosen by the people to his office , but withall must be entred , and inaugurated with some solemn ceremony , as the giving of the Cities keyes , or sword , into his hand , or the like , by his praedecessour . So is it with the Ministers , the officers of this spirituall corporation the Church , the right vnto their offices they have by election , the possession of thē by ordination , with the ceremony of imposition of hands . The Apostle Peter , advertising the * disciples , or brethren that one ( so fitted as is there noted ) was to be made in the room of Iudas , a witnesse with the eleven Apostles , of the resurrection of Christ , ( when two were by them praesented , such as were fit , and by them so deemed ) did , with the rest praesent them two , and none other , to the Lord , that he by the īmediate directiō of the lot might shew , whether of them two he had chosen . In like maner “ the twelve being to institute the office of Deaconry in the Ch : at Ierusalem , called the multitude of the disciples together , and informed them what manner of persons they were to chuse : which choise being made by the brethren accordingly , and they so chosen praesented to the Apostles , they forthwith ordeyned them , by vertue of the election so made by the brethren . To these ad , that the Apostles * PAUL , & BARNABAS ( being therevnto called by the H. Ghost ) did passe from Church to Church , and from place to place , and in every Church , where they came , did ordeyn them Elders by the peoples election , signified by their lifting vp of hands , as the word is , and as the vse was in popular elections , throughout those countries . Now the Apostles were in a manner straungers vnto them , cōming as it were to one place over night , and ready to depart the next morning , or at least tarrying a very small whyle in every Church , as doth appear , both by the course of the story , & by the many severall places they passed to , & fro , & those some of them distant one from another a great space , both by sea , and land . So that neyther the liberty of the very Apostles was so great in ordeyning , as was the peoples in chusing : neither were they to ordeyn but such as the other choose , nor but to ordeyn them , except just exception were against them : neyther was their ordination so much as the others election , no more then possession is so much as right : neyther did the Apostles in their ordination rely so much vpon their own as vpon the peoples knowledge , and experience of the men , which were to be called into office . Besides these things , though it appear that * Paul , & Barnabas were ordeyned by laying on of hands , to that speciall work appointed them by the H. Ghost , and that the Euangelists were so ordeyned , and so the Bishops , or Elders in the Churches by the Apostles , and Euangelists , yet read we of no such solemnity performed by Christ upon his Apostles , when he called them ; nor by Peter , or the Apostles at the choise of Mathias , Act. 1. but being by the people praesented with Ioseph , and by the Lord singled out by lot , he was by a common consent counted with the eleven Apostles . Wherevpon also some reformed Churches haue thought that this solemn ordination by imposition of hands is of no such necessity , but that it might be vsed , or not vsed indifferently , and so have practised . But the judgement , and plea ( when they deal with vs ) of the most forward men in the Land , in this case , I may not omit ; which is , that they renounce , & disclaym their ordination by the Prelates , and hold their Ministery by the peoples acceptation . Now if the acceptation of a mixt company vnder the Praelates government , ( as is the best parish assembly in the kingdom ) wherof the greatest part haue by the revealed will of God , no right to the covenant , ministery , or other holy things , be sufficient to make a minister , then much more the acceptation of the people with vs , being all of them joyntly , and every one of them severally , by the mercy of God , capable of the Lords ordinances . These things , thus opened , I come in the next , and last place to manifest , what liberty the scriptures , just consequence , & good reason do allow the people for the reducing themselves into the order , and under the Ministery of Christ , after some generall cofusion , such as the Papacy was , and is . And for this purpose I entreat the reader to recognize with me the points lately mentioned , and proved in the former part of the book , namely that * a company of faithful people in the covenant of the Gospel are a Church , though without officers : that this Church hath interest in all the holy things of God within it self , and immediately vnder Christ the head , without any forreyn assistance : that in cases , † a private person , or brother , in such a Church , may do a necessary work of an officer : & lastly , that † the keyes of the kingdom were given to , and the Church to be built vpon the rock of Peters confession , Math. 16. And so I come to the point it self . I do then acknowledge , that where there are already lawfull officers in a Church , by , and to which , others are called , there the former , vpon that election , are to ordeyn , and appoint the latter . The officers , being the ministers of the Church , are to exequute the determinations , and iudgements of the Church vnder the Lord : the Censures of deposition , and excommunication by pronouncing the sentence of iudgment , and by it , as by the sword of the spirit drawn out , cutting of the officer from his office , and the member from the bodie , and all cōmunion with it : So are they to exequute the peoples election by pronouncing the person elect to his office , charging him with the faythfull execution of it , with imposition of hands , and prayer . And indeed ordination , in the calling of the ministers is properly the exequutiō of electiō . But as in a civil corporation , or City , though the Maior , Baylif , or other cheif officer elect , be at his ●nterance , and inauguration , to receive at the hands of his praedecessour , the sword , or keyes of the City , or to have some other solemn Ceremony by him performed vnto him : yet if eyther there be no former , as at the first ; or that the former be dead , or vpon necessity absent , when his successour entereth , then is this Ceremony and work performed by some other the fittest instrument : neyther need that City borrow an officer of another City : neyther could he intermedle there , without vsurpation , though both the Corporations haue the same Charter , vnder the same King : so is it in this spirituall Corporation , and City of God , the Church : the former officers , if there be any in that particular congregation , are to ordeyn such as succeed : but if none be to be found , this Corporation is not to goe to the next to borrow an officer , or two , but may vse such fit persons , as shee hath , for that service so absolutely necessary : neither may the officers of an other Corporation do the acts of their office in that , except they be eyther Apostles , or Evangelists , and have generall charges : or rather except they will make themselues Popes : as indeed this exorbitant , and roving course makes as many vniversall Bishops , in respect of power , & so likewise of exequution , if there be occasion , as there are officers in all the Churches . But to come vnto the scriptures , it hath been formerly noted that the first born in the family , before the law , did perform the preists office : in whose place the Levites were afterwards substituted . Now as † the Preists of the Levites did not enter vpō their office without solemn consecration , nor the ministers of the new testament vpon theirs , without solemn * ordination or appoyntment , so neyther can it be conceived , that the first borne did “ take vnto themselues the honour to administer , without some solemnity performed to or vpon them , by their predecessours : & so we read , that when † Isaak conveyed the blessing , and birthright to Iacob , he kissed him , as did * Iacob also lay his right vpon the head of Ephraim , when with the blessing he did transfer the birthright to him from Manasseth . But if the father of the family were suddainly taken away , or dyed before his first borne were capable of this ministration , then could he not thus solemnly resigne , or transmit to him the office , or work , but there must needs have been some interposition of another , if any solemn admission at all were required . To come lower . When † the Levites were given , at the first , to the Lord , as a redemption of the first borne , for the service of the tabernacle , wee do find that the people did , by putting their hands vpon them , offer , and ordeyn them , as their shake offering , and gift vnto the Lord. But this liberty , which the people here vsed , by the Lords appoyntment , at the first , and when the first officers were consecrated in the Church , we do not read to have continued , or so to have been vsed in the consecration of the succeeding Levites ordinarily . And as the Lord would have the people to vse this speciall liberty in the first institution , and consecration of the Levites in that Church , ( which notwithstāding they vsed not in the ordinary consecration of such Levites , as followed , when the Ch : was once furnished with officers ) so doth the holy Ghost give testimony of the same , or the like liberty vsed by them afterwards vpon a speciall occasiō and in that general confusiō , which fel vpō the whole Church , when the Preists were slayn , and the Ark of God was taken by the Philistims . It is then noted 1 Sam : 7. 1. that , vpon the † message from the men of Bethshemesh , the men of Kirjath-i●arim came , and took vp the ark of the Lord , and brought it into the house of Abinadab in the hill ; and that they sanctified Eleazar his Sonne to keep the Ark of the Lord. And the very same word which is vsed Exod : 29. 1. where the Lord bids Moses consecrato the sonns of Aaron to be Preists , is vsed in this place where the men of Kirjath-i●arim sanctified Eleazar to keep the ark : sanctification , & consecration being all one in substance , and the word the same in the originall . Lastly , the Apostle “ Paul writes to the Churches of Galatia to reject as accursed , such ministers whomsoever , as should preach otherwise , then they had already received : and the same Apostle wrytes to the Church at Colossus , to admonish * Archippus to take heed to his ministery : so did Iohn also to the Church of Ephesus , cōmending it for † examining , and so consequently for silencing such , as pretended themselues Apostles and were not : as also to the Church of Thiatyra reproting it for “ suffering vnsilenced the false Prophetesse lezabell : now as these things did first , and principally concern the officers , who were in these , and all other thinges of the same nature to goe before , and governe the people : so were the people also in their places interessed in the same buesines , and charge : neyther could the officers sin , if they were or should haue been , corrupt , or negligent ) discharge the people of their duety in the things , which concerned them : but they were bound notwithstanding to see the commandements of the Apostles , and of the Lord Iesus by them , exequuted accordingly . And if the people be in cases , and when their officers fayl , thus solemnly to examine , admonish , silence , and suppresse their teachers , being faulty , and vnsound : then are they also by proportion , where officers faile , to elect , appoynt , set vp , and over themselues , such fit persons , as the Lord affoardeth thē , for their furtherance of fayth , and salvation . In the 2. place I do adde the conclusion vnto the praemises lately proved , that since the people of God going out of Babylon must come vnder the Lords order , and officers , and may not receive them by succession from the Pope , and his Clergy , nor are to expect them immediatly from heaven , therefore they themselves are to call and appoynt them for the Lords , and their owne service vnder him . 3. Vpon the former ground , that the Lords people must come out of Babylon , & build a new the Lords temple in Ierusalem , even themselves , their soules , and bodyes , for * a spirituall house , and that the Levites , and Preists of the Lord must minister there , it is necessary we consider by the scriptures what course hath been takē formerly for the furnishing of this house thus newly built , of the Church newly constituted , with officers , where they have wanted . Wee do then read , that when that ancient , and mother Church of the Iewes was to be furnished with Officers , † the Lord commaun●● ! Moses to assemble all the congregation of the children of Israell , and to direct them how to offer and freely to giue vnto the Lord for a shake-offering the Levites , for the first born , to execute the service of the Lord. Afterwards , when in the Apostles time , * one was to he chosen in the room of Iudas , Peter standing vp in the middes of the disciples informed them in their liberty , and directed them in the use of it , for the praesenting of two , of which , the Lord would single out one to succeed him . Likewise in the same story , when Deacons were wanting in the Ch : at Ierusalem , † the twelve calling the multitude of the disciples together , put them in mind of their liberty , and informed them in their duety for the chusing of so many as were needfull , so furnished as is there noted . The same course did Paul , and Barnabas afterwards direct the Churches amongst the Gentiles for the chusing of Elders in every City , where they came . Now if * all things which are written before , be written for our learning , and for the learning of all the Churches , and people of God , why are not the people , and Churches of God , in all places to learne from hence their liberty , and duty , for the chusing of officers , where they are wanting ▪ having men therevnto fitted by the Lord. And what hindereth but that the Church , the multitude , the Disciples ( call them as you wil ) in the fellowship , and covenant of the gospell , may be as clearely informed in their duety , and as effectually exhorted to the vse of their liberty by the writings of the Prophets , and Apostles , as by their speaches . The Apostle , wryting to the Church of Corinth about the censuring of the incestuous man , though he were “ absent in body , yet was present in spirit , which was , in effect , all one , and as avaylable to that purpose as his bodily presence should have been : so though Moses and Peter , and Paul , be bodily absent , yet are they in their wrytings , present in spirit , after a sort , nay God himself in spirit is present in them , with his Churches , & people , both for their warrant , direction , and comfort . Though it be true then which M B : sayth that the people wayted till the Apostles came ; and that they did not elect officers but vpon their exhortation : yet must it also be considered that Apostles do now come in their writings , as there they did in corporall presence , and that they exhort as fully in them now , as they did in speach then . Besides there are now no Apostles vpon earth , nor other Church officers having † the care of all the Churches , in the world as the Apostles had : nor that are extraordinarily and miraculously endewed with all giftes especially with the gift of all tongues , as the Apostles were ; nor that have the like generall commision to teach all nations , as they had . The ordinary officers , which the Apostles , and Evangelists left in the Churches , and for the choyse of whom ▪ they left order to the worlds end were such Elders or Byshops as were assigned , and fixed to such particular flockes as they were to feed , vnder that cheif sheepheard , and great Bishop Iesus Christ. Besides , if the Churches , or people should wayt now , as M Ber. would have them till the Bishops of Rome , or England came to them , as the Apostles did to the Churches in their time , to exhort them to chuse officers , and to ordeyn them for them , they might languish vnder a wan hope , & wayt till their eyes fayled in their heads . Wherevpon then I do conclude , that if the Church without officers may elect , it may also ordeyn officers ▪ if it have the power and commission of Christ for the one , and that the greater , it hath it also for the other , which is the lesse . If it haue officers , it must vse them as hands to put the persons by ordination into that office , to which they haue right by election : but if it want officers , it may , and must vse other the fittest instruments it hath : as in the naturall body , if men want hands , or be deprived of the vse of them , they do for their present necessity vse their teeth , or feet , or other fittest parts of the body , for the busynes possible to be done by them . Lastly if the Lord should rayse vp in America , or the like place , a company of faythfull men , and women , ( which of stones should become children to Abraham ) by the reading of the scriptures , or by some godly mens writings , or ( which is most like ) by the holy instructions , and exhortations of some merchants , or travaylers , how , or by what meanes should they come by Ministers ? Must they be sent out of Europe unto thē ? And if they were they would be barbari●ns ech to others , neyther vnderstanding others language . But what to do hath the Pope of Rome , or the Bishops in England , or the Praesbytery in Germany , or France to appoynt them in America Ministers ? It is evident that such an assembly , as I speak of , having received the gospel , haue received the keyes of the kingdome , and the power of Christ : and being joyned in this fellowship of the gospell , haue the joynt vse of the keyes , & power of Christ : & being within the covenaunt of Abraham , are the Ch : of God : & so haue power to choose , and appoynt their own Ministers frō within themselves . Now because these things wil be better taken at other mens hāds , then at ours , yea it may be with many , through praejudice , their very authority wil sway more then our Arguments though never so rightly grounded vpō the scriptures , & cōmon reason , I wil therefore here crave leave to bring in a few men of singular note both at home , & abroad , to shew their judgments in the case in hand . And I will first bring in one , of our own nation , of great account ( and that worthily ) with al that fear God , how ever he were against vs in our practise . The man is Mr Perkins . He then writing about ordination , & succession , in his Cōmentary vpon the Epistle to Gal : ch : 1. ver : 11. gives this testimony : that , if in Turky , or America , or elswhere , the gospel should be received of men , by the counsel , & perswasion of private persons , they should not need to send into Europe for consecrated Ministers , but had power to choose their own Ministers from within themselves : & the Reasons of this he renders in the same place , bycause where God gives the word , he gives the power also . And I do desire especially his Reasō may be observed : which is , that , where God gives the word , there he gives the power also . Wherevpon it followes , that any other assēbly whether in America , or Europe , separating themselves frō Idolatry , whether Heathenish , or Antichristian , & receiving the gospell of Christ , do with the gospel receive the power also : & so may choose their ministers within themselves : & need not send to any other place , no not to the next parish for consecrated Ministers . In the 2. place I wil alledg one of greater note , and more ancient : and that is Philip Melancton : who , in his Answer to the ministers in Bohemia , which taught the incorrupt doctrine of the gospell , refutes the praetext of ordination to be taken from the Bishops , with that of Paul , * if any teach another gospell , let him be an Athema ; adding also that onely the assembly where true doctrine soundeth is the Church : and that in it is the ministery of the gospell : in it are the keyes of the kingdom of heavē . Wherefore in that very assembly ( in eo ipso coetu ) there is the right of calling , and ordeyning the ministers of the gospell , bycause we must fly the enemyes of the gospell , as an Anathema . And besides ( sayth he ) if wee should desyre of them the ceremony of ordinatiō , they would not giue it , except we would bind ourselves to renounce the true doctrine ; & other wicked bōds would they cast vpō vs. Neyther therefore ought the true Ch : to be without Pastors , without the keyes , without the voyce of the gospell , without forgivenes of ●inns , bycause the tyranny of the Bishops eyther drives away , or refuses to appoynt fit Ministers . And agayn , it is the confusiō of order to seek sheepheards frō the wolves . And lastly , this hath ever been the right of the true Church , to chuse , and call out of her own assembly fit Ministers of the gospel . Thus far h● . In the third place Peter Martyr shall speak , who vpon the book of Iudges ch . 4. vers . 5. sayth thus : Touching the ecclesiasticall Ministery we have signified before , that it may not be committed to women , & that they are not fit for it . But now wee adde , that , in the planting of Churches anew , when men want , which should preach the gospell , a woman may perform that , at the first ; but so as when she hath taught any company , that some one man of the faythful be ordeyned , which may afterwards minister the sacraments , teach , and do the Pastours duety faithfully . 4. Zanchy ▪ vpon the fifth to the Ephesians , treating of Baptism propounds a quaestion of a Turk comming to the knowledge of Christ , and to sayth by reading the new Testament , and withall teaching his family , & converting it , and others to Christ ; and being in a countrey , whence he can not easily come to Christian Churches ; whether he may baptise them , whom he hath converted to Christ , he himself being vnbaptized ? He answers , I doubt not of ●● , but that he may , and withall provide , that he himself be baptized of one of the three converted by him . The Reason ( be gives ) 〈…〉 , bycause he is a Minister of the word extraordinarily stirred vp of Christ : & so , as such a Minister may , with the consent of that small Church , appoint one of the “ communi●ants , and provide , that he be baptized by him . Adde in the fifth place Tilenus , who being demaunded of the Earl of Lavall , from whom Calvin had his calling , answered , from the Church of Geneva , and from Farell , his praedecessour : who had also his frō the people of Geneva ; who had right , and authority , to institute , and depose Ministers : which thing he also confirms by Cyprian : Ephes. 14. The sixth , and last I will name is Sadeel who writing a treatise of purpose , touching the lawfull calling of Ministers , against such as agreed with the reformed Churches in the doctrine they taught , but excepted against them in this , that they had not their Ministers by ordinary succession : s●ewes , that amongst , and above other things the ecclesiastical Ministery of Rome is corrupted : & makes it a shamelesse thing , that any boasting of the pure knowledge of God , should obiect against them , that they did not draw the pure reformation of the ecclesiasticall Ministery out of the dr●gges of Popery . The first argument he vseth to justify the calling of their Ministers is , that they are called , chosen , and received of these assemblyes which do appear by manifest signes , and arguments to be true Churches ▪ as having the true doctrine of fayth , the pure administration of the sacramēts , the right and sincere ●●vocation of Gods name , observing religiously the discipline instituted by Christ , and his Apostles : and lastly testifying by the duties of love , constancy of Martyrs , and reformation of the whole life , that they are by the great mercy of God , adopted into the number of the faythfull , as members of the Catholick Church : &c. And thus much of the Ministery both yours Mr Ber : & ours : and more particularly to prove , that an assembly of faythful people separating themselves from Heathenish , or Antichristian idolatry , have right within themselves to call , and appoint their Ministers . Now from this conclusion thus manifested do arise sundry others worthy the noting down , for the common controversy . As first that such an assembly ( though without officers ) is a true visible Church , the kingdom of Christ , & City of God. And I suppose it needs no confirmation to any good conscience , that the choise of Church officers is a Church action , a mayn part of the administration of Christs kingdom , and a priviledge of that spirituall City the new Ierusalem : and that such an assembly hath the power of Christ , and from him authority , and commission : without vvhich it were intollerable usurpation to praesume to choose his officers : especially the cheif officers in his kingdom , as are they which administer the word , & sacraments , of whom we principally entreat . 2. That the people have power to censure offenders : for they that haue power to elect , appoint , & set vp officers , they hav also power ( vpō just occasiō ) to reject , depose , & put them down : & so are part of that Church , where officers are ; and the whole Church , where they are not ; of which Christ speaketh Math : 18. 17. where he sayth tell the Church . Besides , that the calling of officers , and censuring of offenders are the two mayn administrations of the kingdome of Christ , and so both of one nature . 3. And lastly that the brethren out of office , whether in a Church furnished with officers , or vvithout them , are not mere private persons ; as you Mr Ber : and others , would make them , in the exercise of prophesy , calling of Ministers , and judging of offenders for scandalous sinns . Considering them in deed severally one by one , or in opposition to the publique officers , they may be called private persons : but take them joyntly , and in these and the like acts of their communion , and they are more then so : and as the Church is a publique body , so are they members of the body , and parts of the whole , and of the same publique nature with it : and not private parts , or members of the publique body : which were a senseles contradiction , and contrary to the rule in Reasō . The whole , and all the partes ioyntly taken , are the same . When † the brethren made choyce of Ioseph , and Mathyas to be presented : and afterwards of the “ seven Deacons : & after that of * the Elders in every Church , did they make a private choise of publique officers ? or could they as private persons merely , make a publique choise ? When the Apostle Paul wrote to the Church of Corinth ( which you graunt to be the multitude , or † body of the Church about the censuring of the incestuous person ) did he will them to judge and censure him privately for his publique scandalous sin ? or could they as persons merely private passe a publique judgement ? The thing then is , that when the Church is gathered or come together in one for the administration of the word , sacraments , censures and other exercises of religion , & parts of Gods worship , the officers , ( if there be any ) and brethren with them , are one & the same publique body , to be exercised in one and the same part of their publique communion : and to make the officers publick persons , and the brethren private in the cōmunion , is to make a schisme in the Church : and to make the brethren part of the cōmunion , in the administration of the word , & sacraments , prayer , singing of Psalmes , contribution , calling of officers , censuring of offenders , or other Church action whatsoever , private , and the officers publik is to make it schismatical , & them in it schismatiks . Thus much of the 9. errour objected . The tenth foloweth , which is , that we say Their worship is a false worship . For answer vnto this assertion Mr B : refers vs to the end of this treatise ; and there then will wee attend for it : & yet somewhat will he say against it : & that is . First , that they worship no false God. 2. that they worship the true God with no false worship . We charge you not with the worship of any false God , though wee shall see by , & by how , in one particular , you will defend your selves . But the thing you should have endeavoured , is , to prove that your divine-service-book framed by man , and by man imposed to be vsed , without addition or alteration , as the solemn worship of your Church , is that true , and spirituall manner of worshiping God , which he hath appointed : & with which he will be worshiped in spirit , & trueth . Of this you say little , or nothing , but bycause you seem to your self to say somewhat , wee will see what it is . The word ( you say ) preached , is the true word : the sacraments true sacraments : the prayers we pray ( whether , conceived , or set , and stinted ) are such as may be warranted by the word : and agreable to the prescript form taught by our saviour Christ. The word preached in popery , or in the most haereticall assembly in the world , is the true word , but the devises of men are not the true word , eyther with you or them . Yea the divels thēselues preached the true word , when they affirmed , and published that Iesus was “ that Christ , the sonne of God , the most High : did they therefore perform vnto God true worship ? Of the sacraments I have spokē formerly , & have shewed that in the administration of them , they cannot be reputed true . It is the † word of promise , that makes the sacraments , except then the parish assemblies , joyntly considered in their members , have right unto the spirituall promises of God , the sacraments administred in , and vnto them in that their estate , cannot so be accounted true sacraments . For your prayers , I observe sundry things out of your own words , which I may not passe over : as first , that you speak not properly , no nor truely in saying you pray stinted prayers : for you read them , and who will say reading is praying ? you pray to God , but will you say you read to God ? or if you so say , and do , is it agreable eyther to his ordinance , or to cōmon reason ? Mistake me not , as though I speak of inward prayer , or of the lifting vp of the hart : for I graunt a man may pray inwardly , or lift vp the heart to God , when he reads , or preaches , or sings , or receives the sacraments : of such prayer we neyther speak , nor can discern , but in our selves : our speach then being of the outward act , & ordinance of prayer , I do affirm , ( and so marvayl if all reasonable men concurre not with me ) that the ordinance of reading cannot be the ordinance of praying . 3. In your division of prayer , wherin you make some conceived , and some set and stinted , you graunt , that the prayers which are set , and stinted , are not conceived : wherein you do as much as graunt , that they are not of God , nor according to his will. The Apostle Iude directeth vs alwayes to * pray in the holy Ghost : and Paul teacheth , that † we cannot pray as we ought , but as the spirit helpeth vs , and begetteth in vs sighs vnutterable : by the work of which spirit if our prayers be not conceived first in our hearts before they be brought forth in our lips , they are an vnnaturall , bastardly , and prophane byrth . Lastly , if your stinted prayer be ( as you say ) agreable to the prescript forme of prayer taught by our saviour Christ , then must none other form of prayer be vsed but a stinted or set form : for none other form may be vsd but that which is agreable to the prescript form of Christ : since Christ hath sayd , “ after this manner , pray . Where you further add , that nothing is imposed or done by you for the worship of God , but the word read , and preached , and the sacraments , and prayer , I demaund of your first , in worship , or honour of whō are your holy dayes , bearing the names of S. Michaels , S. Peters , S. Iohns day , and the rest , imposed , and kept ? if in the honour of the Saynts & Angels , then are you not cleare ( as you make your selves ) from the worshipping of false Gods : neyther can you exempt your selves from the number of them , which * in voluntary religion worship Angels : if on the other side those dayes be appoynted and so kept holy , in the worship and honour of God , then do you ( and that by authority ) worship God by , and put holines in , other things , then the word read , & preached , and the sacraments , and prayer ; yea and other things , then ever came into the Lords heart to sanctify for his worship . And so the place Math. 15. 9. and other scriptures to that purpose are truely ( though you say , falsely ) alledged against you . 2. I do demaund of you , whether your Apocrypha books , namely that which is placed betwixt both testaments , causing the Iewes to think the new testament no better , then the fables which are ioyned to it , as a learned man of our nation hath observed , and the other book of Homilies , be enjoyned , and vsed as parts of Gods worship ? It is evident they are so held . And therefore it is , that a great portion of the former is preferred in the most solemn assemblyes before the canonicall scriptures ; and the reading of them , before the reading of the other , which they justle out of their place . And for the homilyes , they are enioyned ( and so vsed ) in stead of the preaching of the word which is the principall part of Gods worship : wherevpon it followeth that the Apocrypha wrytings of mē , being preferred before one part of Gods worship , which is the reading of the Canonicall scriptures , and vsed in stead of an other part of Gods worship , yea and that the principall part , as is preaching , are imposed ( and so vsed ) as partes of Gods worship . So that it is not without good cause , M Ber : that M Ainsworth bids you prove the Apocrypha scriptures , and books of Homilies the true word of God. Nothing , you tel vs , is imposed and vsed amongst you for the worship of God , but the true word of God read , and preached , and the sacraments , and prayer : now these being imposed , and vsed for the worship of God , and being neyther the preaching of the word , nor the sacraments , nor prayer , must needs be the true word of God , & so you must prove thē , or els the truth of your assertiō is disproved . Touching your discourse of the order of Gods worship before , in , and after the Apostles tyme , I observe ( to let passe other particulars ) your errour , in making the particular Synagogues of the Iewes , as the particular Churches are now . The Synagogues were not entyre Churches of themselves , but partes , or members of the nationall Ch : neyther could they haue vse of the most solemn parts of Gods worship , as were then the sacrifices : neyther could the cheif Ministers in the Church execute their office in them : but as they depended vpon the temple in Ierusalem , so were the people to cary their offerings thither , and there to enjoy these ministrations . But particular congregations now do stand in no such dependancy ; they may enjoy within themselves the word , sacraments , and prayer , which are the most solemn services in the Ch : now , and so by consequence , all the rest . In deed it is with your parrish assemblyes , somewhat as it was with the Synagogues : they cannot enjoy the Ministers by , and from within themselves , nor have the vse of ecclesiasticall government , but must depend vpon their Ierusalems , the Bishops Chappels , and Consistories , for these their most solemn , and peculiar administrations . Mr B : in his † 2. book to prove their worship true worship , pretends 3 distinct Argumēts . The first , bycause it is according to the word of God. 2. bycause it is not forbidden in the scripture . 3. bycause it is after the manner of the worship of the true Churches of God , set downe in the word . An other man would have comprehended these three reasons in one : and so might Mr Ber. have done well enough , considering his confirmation of them : wherein he brings not so much as one scripture , or reason from scripture , to prove their prescript leyturgy by man devised , and imposed ( of which our mayn quaest on is ) to be according to the word of God : &c. onely in the 3. Argument he toucheth an obiection , which he calles a conceyt of ours , viz : that it quencheth the spirit : to which he gives a double answer . First , that it is agaynst known experience : 2. that it is the groundwork of Mr Smith ▪ casting of reading the scriptures in the assembly . Other things he speaks are not worth the insisting vpon ; let vs consider of his answers . To the former , of them touching known experience , I do reply two things : first that the experience of supposed good in a course , or by meanes , not warrantable by the written word of God , is of all godly wise men to be suspected . 2 ▪ though the experience of good be certayn , yet must men take heed they honour not one thing for an other , as the means of that good : but they must put difference between that which is good , and that which is evill , in the same compound action . Many do avouch they have wrought in them much hatred of murder , treason , and the like evils , by a stage-play : others , that their devotion is much furthered by organ musick , and the chaunting of quiresters , yea by the prayers in a tongue they vnderstand not : all these will alledge their kn●wn experience . But to leave these things . The Apostle Paul 1 Cor. 14. testifyeth , that a man “ speaking a strange language may ●di●y himself , though not the Church : and though he * pray in a strange tongue without the vnderstanding , or benefit of the Church , yet that his spi●●t may pray . Might such a man therefore alledge his known experience for prayer in a strange tongue , contrary to the Apostles expresse inhibition ? neyther is it any justification of the service book in the vse we speak of , that people do in the reading of it , find by experience , their affectiōs furthered : God may , & doth therein honor the simple , & honest affectiōs of his people so far , as to receive the request of their heart , which he seeth in secret , covering in mercy the outward manner of putting vp the same , wherein they of ignorance , or infirmity , fayl . And that these stinted and devised forms do quench the spirit of prayer , appears in that they deprive the Church , & minister of that liberty of the spirit of prayer , which God would haue the vse : stinting the Minister , yea all the Ministers in the kingdom , to the same measure of the spirit , not onely one with an other , but all of them with him , that is dead and rottē : and so stinting the spirit , which the Lord gives his Ministers , for his Church : and that so strictly , as till the stint be out , it may not suggest one thought or word otherwise ; or when it is out , one more , then is praescribed . † The manifestation of the spirit sayth the Apostle , is given to every man to profit withall . But in the reading of a praescript forme of prayer , there is not the manifestation of the spirit of the minister given him to profit the Church withall , but the manifestation of of the spirit of him , that devised , and penned the service book . Now for M Ber : 2 Answ : namely that this conceipt of ours , saying that set prayer quencheth the spirit , is the groundwork of Mr Smithes casting of reading the scriptures in the assemblyes : first , he wrongeth M. Smyth , who doth not deny the reading of the scriptures in the assembly , but that the reading of them is properly a part of Gods worship . 2. Not our conceipt , but his own ill collection is the groundwork of his errour . Let the indifferent reader iudge , whither this consequence be good or no. Bycause the reading of the Apocrypha Prayers of the Bishops of Rome or of England , or their Chapleyns , for prayer , quencheth the spirit , or is not the true manner of prayer , which Christ hath left ; therefore the reading of the Canonicall scriptures penned by the Prophets , and Apostles , for reading , quencheth the spirit , and is no part of Gods worship . Other observations M Ber : hath in his Answer , some nothing to the purpose , and others against himself : as for example : The Iewes in the ould Testament did meet together at set times commaunded by the Lord : so did the Churches of Christ in the new , or the first day of the week . Ergo the Church of England doth wel in meeting at set times , yea holy times , not commaunded by the LORD , and that farre more solemnly , then on the first or LORDS day . 2. The Iewes had preaching every Lords day , in every Synagogue● : therefore the Church of Engl : is in good estate , where there is no preaching , or as good as none , in one parish of ten , on the Lords day , or at other tymes . 3. The Iewish Church had singing of the Psalmes of David , and of other propheticall men : and Christ himself did vse the same ; therefore the Church of England doth cōmmendably in singing besides them , the Apocrypha songs of men , ful of errours , and vanities : as that † the Saints , and Angels in heaven do yet see the wounds , and blood of Christ : that a sinner * need not confesse his life , bycause God knowes all things : & that he needs not repeat what he would have , bycause God knowes it before he askes : that “ the scripture declares , there was no drop of blood in Christ , which he shed not for sinners : that † the spirit of Christ did after his buriall descend into the lower parts , to them that long were in darknes , the true light of their hearts : that * the sun in the firmament , the heavens , the earth , the sea , and all therein , yea the spirits beneath , were made for man to rule them . But these things I passe over , and come to Mr B : second row of errours imputed to vs , which he judgeth sufficiently confuted in the former , as also to be so absurd , and false , as that the reading of them is sufficient to make them to be reiected . The first of them is , that their congregations , as they stand , are all , and every one of them vncapable before God to chuse them Ministers , though they desire the meanes of salvation . First let it here be noted , that Mr B : in this same book pag : 136 compared with pag. 138. makes it a rule for the Churches making a Minister , which must be kept , and from which she may not ●werve , that the guides , and governours of the Church do choose one from amongst others for the Ministery . If the guides , and governours must choose , how then apperteyns this to your congregations ? or how are they capable of this liberty ? 2. If they be capable of this liberty , why do they not vse it ? There is no congregation in the Land , which as a Church , chooseth their Minister : the Patron , and Bishop have seazed this liberty , & at their courtesie doth the congregation stand to receive eyther a preacher , or dumb preist : eyther a man of some conscience , or without all ●oar of God , or cōmon honesty , whom they may not refuse . And if some parishes choose , it is not as Churches , but as Patrons . They have purchased the right of patronage with their money , and so vse it . But what is this to that spirituall liberty , and charter of Christs spirituall kingdome the Church ? 3. I deny that any congregation in the Land desires the means of salvation . I speak of the congregation , which is the whole consisting of the parts joyntly considered . The best parish hath too many in it that “ love darknes rather then light , because their deeds are evill . This you find true in your own , Mr B. which you deem one of the best . And what right hath such an assembly to chuse a Minister , which hath no right to his ministrations of the sacraments , & other holy things ? Because the Lord Iesus hath given his power , and charter to his subjects for the choise of their officers whether many , or few , doth it therefore follow that the subjects of sinne , & Satan , professed traytours vnto his Majesty , have the same liberty ? or can his subjects combine with them that are , and allwayes have been such , in the vse , or rather in the vsurpation of that divine priviledge ? These things Mr B : you extenuate , bycause you want them , but the Churches of Christ accounts them pretious things : which they therefore labour to preserve pure . Of your false worship something hath been before , & more shal be hereafter spoken ; and you do idely make it a distinct errour from the tenth . That baptism is not administred into the fayth of Christ simply , but into the fayth of Bishops , & Church of England , which you make our 3. errour , do we not affirm , but leave it to him for justification , which not content with that in England received , hath found out since a 2. or 3. as he supposeth better then that was . ¶ Wee are to consider , baptism first , and principally in relation from GOD to vs , and as a seal of the covenant of grace into which he hath received vs : and secondarily in relation from vs to God , & as we restipulate , or promise agayn vnto him . In the first respect , it is effectuall vpon the very infants of the faithfull , though for the present wanting fayth : & in the 2. both may be , & is vpon such as erre in many great poynts of fayth : otherwise the baptism ministred by Iohn into the fayth of Christ which came after him could not have been true vnto many which received it , being ignorant a long tyme after of the very kingdō , & office of Christ. To conclude then , since the essential form of institution is reteyned in the baptism in Engl : , & the doctrine of the Trinity sincerely held , into whose name all persons are baptized indefinitely , the particular errours in that Church touching the manner of worshiping God , or touching the vses or ends of baptism ( which are not of the essence ) cannot make the baptism in it self cease to be indefinite . Of the 4. Errour imputed vnto vs , namely , that we hould your fayth , and repentance false , I say as of the third : and doubt not , but the personall fayth , and repentance of very many men , and women there , according to the measure of knowledge , and grace received , is true , and sincere before God : yea and so visibly declared , and manifested to be , before men , in respect of their persōs : notwithstanding all the evilles in their Church Communion and ordinances . Your 5. exception , viz : that your ministers convert men not as Pastours , but as teachers , is neyther our errour , nor assertion , but your owne misconstruction . This we hould , that the conversion of men with you is no way to be ascribed to your office , which it justifieth not : but to the truthes of God taught amōgst you , by the special blessing of God vpon them , notwithstanding the other evills wherewith they are mingled inseparably amongst you . To your demand what idoll you worship , bycause we affirm your Church to stand in an adulterous estate , I do answer that you may stand in an adulterous estate , though you worship the true God onely , if you do it after a devised maner : as in deed you do in your government , ministery , service-book , and ceremonyes ; which being all properly matters of religion and not commanded by the Lord , are devises of your own against the 2. commaundement , which forbids nothing but idolatry . Your 7. insimulation against vs , is , that wee cannot say certeynly by any warrant of Gods word , that any of you have eyther fayth or feare of God. Wherein you consure vs , as having lost the feeling of former grace , and all true charity . Mr Smyth in his Parallels shewes your fraud , & evil dealing with him in this case , whom you name in your margent . And I further adde , that I do not onely in the generall beleeve there are many such , but am so perswaded in the particular of many I know . Yet so to say certainly of any of you , I cānot , nor of our selves neyther , by the word of God. A man can say this onely of himself certaynly , bycause he onely knowes his own heart : but of others morally , & in the judgement of charity , which is according to outward appearance , and which may deceive . The 8. & 9. errours imputed to us are , that we hold none of their Ministers may be heard : & that it is not lawful to ioyn in prayer with any of them . Sundry things Mr B. brings to evince the former position of errour , but not one of them so much as tending to prove it lawfull to partake in an office of Ministery eyther devised or vsurped with out lawfull calling , as that in Engl : hath been proved to be . It is not true then which he sayth , that we censure any for hearing the word : we do it for partaking in other mens sinns : and for receiving the mark of the beast , in cōmunicating with the Ministery of Antichrist ; as we assuredly know yours to be the office , & enterāce into it ( notwithstāding the truthes taught , & personal graces in the teachers ) and for obstinacy in the same . It is true then , but not pertinent , which Mr B. sayth , that it is a good thing to hear the word : which who denyes but the Church of Engl : that silēceth the Preachers of it for her own , & the Popes inventions ? & that tyes the people to their unpreaching parish-preists , rather then permits them to hear a Preacher in the next parish ? Other things obiected by him are els where handled : yet seemes it not amisse to ad something touching three scriptures by him produced , and appy'ed to his purpose : & they are Mat. 23. 1. 2. 3. Phil. 1. 15. 18. Tit. 3. 10. 11. And first , there is not one of these scriptures that gives so much as any colour of coūtenāce to the hearing of the word ministered in a false Church , devised office , and by vertue of an vnlawfull calling : or where any of these barres are put : and by all these we do beleeve & affirm our selves to be kept from hearing you . And this generall defence I do apply vnto the particulars , and first to the first : answering , that the Scribes , and Pharisees did neyther minister to any but the Lords people , the Israell of God , nor in an vnlawfull place , nor by an vnlawfull enterance , how corruptly soever they ministred : & for corrupt administrations , besides the cōstitutiō , in the true Church , we do not think the Ministers are eyther suddeynly , or vnorderly to be forsaken . To which I do ad further , first , that the words do sit in Moses chayr , and whatsoever they bid you do , may more strictly after the Greek be turned have sit in MOSES chayre , and have bidden you observe , that is , what you have heard of them formerly according to Moses , that do , and observe . But let the words be as they are , and that Christ speakes of the time to come , yet I see not how in them , the LORD eyther commaunds , or approves of his disciples hearing the Scribes , & Pharisees in their publique , and solemn administrations : but if he speak of them , then he may onely permit his DISCIPLES in respect of their weaknes , and being ( for the present ) too much addicted vnto them , so to hear them : or otherwise Christ may speak of such occasionall meetings and conferences , as passed ordinarily between the Pharisees , and his disciples : wherin what was of Moses , he willes them to receive from them , without praejudice of their persons : and so we do also will , and exhort the people with vs to receive , and reteyn whatsoever of God they hear from you , or any others vpon the like occasion . And considering , that in the first verse Christ spake vnto the multitude , and to his disciples , ( laying no more vpon his disciples in this case , then vpon the multitude ) and what respect the disciples had the Pharisees in , and how oft , and vsually they met , and medled together , it is very probable , that Christ , vpon this supposition , that the disciples would , or should hear , or meet with them , intends onely to provide , that the word of God may reteyn all due authority with his , in that confused estate wherein all things then stood : neyther cōmaunding , nor approving the hearing of them . And considering what Christ himself testifieth of the Scribes , & Pharisees in that very chapter , that they * shut vp the kingdom● of heaven before men , neyther going in themselves , nor suffering them that would : † making those of their profession two-fold more the children of hel , then thēselves : what haeresies they taught touching justificatiō by works , and perfect obedience to the whole law , how they made voyd the commaundements of God for their own traditions : how they denyed in Christ both the person , and office of the Messiah : blaspheming him in his doctrine as a deceiver of the people ; in his life as a glutton , and drinker of wyne ; and in his most glorious miracles as one that wrought them by the " Divel ; considering I say these things , it should be strange that Christ should eyther send his disciples to be taught by these blynde guides , or approve of their hearing them , him self also being the onely “ doctour and teacher of his Church . And this I would know of you Mr. B : & of others which vrge this scripture , as here you doe , whether you would like it well , or be content , that the disciples should hear any such corrupt , haereticall , and blasphemous teachers , as were the Scribes , and Pharis●es , and that denyed both the office , and person of Christ , as they did . You your selfe teach in this very † page that obstinate haeretiques are not to be heard : and such were the Pharisees yea so malitiously obstinate in their haeresies , as that the Lord Iesus insinuates agaynst them , the very * sin of blasphemy , agaynst the H : Ghost . If then you your selves would allow your disciples to hear teachers far lesse corrupt , and haereticall then were the Scribes , and Pharisees , to what purpose do you produce , and insist vpon Christs allowance of his disciples to hear them ? Is this fitly to alledge the scriptures , or not rather to take Gods name in them in vayn ; To the other scripture , which is Phil : ● . 15. 16 answer hath been given both by others , and by my self formerly : and I now do ad , that those there spoken of , which preached Christ of envy , and strise , had corrupt inward affections so appearing to the Apostle by that speciall spirit of discerning which was in him , though not so discovered vnto others : but what makes this to such as minister in an office devised , and by an enterance found out by Antichrist , and so left to them , which think his mark a priveledge . Touching your 3. Argument , which is from Tit ▪ 3. 10. 11. I do first observe your graunt , that private persons , and such as are not in office may reiect obstinate hare●iques , and so by consequence , that the thinges , which Paul writes to Timothy , and Titus touching the reformation of abuses , and censuring of offendours , do not concerne the officers onely , much lesse the cheif officers , but even the brethren also in their places . 2. There is no consequence in your Argument , that bycause obstinate haretiques may not be heard , ●herefore vsurpers may . You might as sensibly argue thus : bycause “ a fornicatour ▪ must not be eaten with , but iudged by the Church , therefore a covetous person , an idolatour ▪ a rayler may be eaten with , and must not be judged , contrary to the Apostles expresse writing . In your 9. charge , namely that we hold it not lawful to ioyn in prayer with any of you , and in your comment vpon it , you do vs a double injury ; first in saying we approve not of any of your praying for vs : 2. That wee pray for you onely as wee do for Iewes , Turks , and Papists . For as wee are perswaded we fare the better for the prayers of many amongst you , and so both approve of , and desire the same ; so do wee also pray for many as for the Lords people in Babylon , and that they may at the Lords call , * go out of her : and that as they are holy in their persons , so they may be also in their Church communion , and ordinances . Now for the poynt it self : & first for your Reason by which you would prove it erroneous . If ( say you ) wee hold any of you the childrē of God , then our Saviour hath taught vs to ioyn with you in prayer , and to say , Our father with you . You do wryte in another place of this book , that † a man justly excommunicated , & cast out is to be held a brother , & so consequently a child of God ; for the brethren of the Saynts , are the children of God ; wherevpon if your Argument in this place , and Position in the former place , be good , it must be lawfull to joyn in prayer with a man justly excommunicated . I do answer then , that it is true you say , we ought to cōmunicate both in prayer , & in al the other ordinances of God with all Gods children except they themselves hinder it , or put a barre : which we are perswaded they in the Church of Engl. do , in chusing rather the cōmuniō of all the profane rowt in the kingdom vnder the Prelates tyranny , then the cōmunion of Saynts , which Christ hath established , vnder his government . So that it is not we which refuse them , but they vs , binding vs eyther to practise as we do , or to cōmunicate in one spirituall body with all the graceles persons , and vile miscreants in the kingdom . For as he which hath hold of any one member of the naturall body i● not separated from the body , but holdeth the whole & every member by cohaerence , so he which is joyned in cōmuniō with one mēber of the Church , is by cohaerence joyned with the whole Church , and every member of it . We do professe it is not in neglect of the graces of God , which we acknowledge to be eminent in many , that we deny cōmuniō with them : but onely in conscience of the order which Christ hath set : & in testimony against the disorder , which Antichrist hath brought into , & left in the world . The order which the Lord hath set , is , that those which fear him should be of a true visible Church rightly gathered : & that any such should be out of the true Church , or cōmingled with all the prophane Atheists in a kingdom , is a mayn part of Antichrists confusion . Now if God hath set vs in the orderly cōmuniō of a Church , we must not break our order for other mens disordered courses . Cōmunion is a matter of order , & relation , standing in the orderly combyning of the graces of God in two faythfull persons , or more . And how far order ought to praevayl with men in this case let these particulars manifest . One of the Church cōmits some notable sinne known to me alone , which ( being dealt with by me ) he denyes ; and without * two or three witnesses the Church may not proceed against him . I must therefore still cōmunicate with the Church , and so with him as a mēber of it , til God so far discover him as he can be orderly dealt with , & till † the Lord lead him forth with the workers of wickednes . And as I am to cōmunicate with an vngodly man , with whom I am orderly joyned in the Church , till I can be orderly disioyned from him : so by proportion I am to forbear communion with a godly man out of the Church , vntill I be orderly joyned vnto him . Further , put the case a man be excōmunicated in mine absence , vpon the testimony of tvvo or three witnesses , and that I know he is injuryed , & am able to manifest his innocency to all men : yet will I for order sake ( & so am bound ) forbear communion with him for the praesent , till his īnocency be by me sufficiently cleared . Now if for order I must refuse cōmunion with him , which is put out of the Church for weldoing , by the sinne of others how much more with him that keepes out himself by his own default , and sinne ? So that the holines of a mans person is not sufficient for cōmuniō , but withall it must be ranged into the order of a Ch : , wherin both his persō , & actiōs must cōbyne , & vnder whose censure they must come : whereas this other vnorderly course destroyes the censures , which by Christs appointmēt , do extēd to every brother whosoever . These thinges I do desire the godly Reader indifferently , and without offence to take knowledge of : and to rest in this our defence , if it be found according to the word of God : if not , to give vs knowledge by the same word of the contrary , wherein we shall willingly rest , and ( by the grace of God ) so practise . Our 10. reckoned Errour , is that ministers may not celebrate mariage nor bury the dead . And this M. B : affirmes we say , but without scriptures . First , you that charge our opiniō with errour , should so haue proved it by the scriptures , or some Reasons from them . 2. You speak against your own knowledge , having seen our wrytings : especially our Apology , where , in the 3. Petition , to the KING , and the fourth braunch of the sixth Position , there are almost twenty severall scriptures , and nine distinct reasons grounded vpon them , to prove , that the celebration of mariage , and buryall of the dead are not ecclesiasticall actions , apperteyning to the ministery , but civill , and so to be performed . You your self M : B : both affirme and prove in this book from 1 Cor : 12. 4. that “ the Lord onely praescribes the dutyes to be done in every distinct office of ministery in the Church . And the Apostle testifieth that the scriptures , being divinely inspired , do make perfect , and fully furnished , the man of God , or minister , to every good work of his calling . Now I suppose M. B : will not be so ill advised , as to goe about to prove that the celebration of mariage , and buryall of the dead , are duetyes praescribed by the Lord Iesus to be done in the Pastours office , or that the scriptures lay this furniture vpon the man of God for the proper workes of his office . They are then other spiritual Lordes then the Lord Christ , that prescribe these duties to be done by their men , furnished by other scriptures then the divine scriptures , the Bishops scriptures , their Canons , & cōstitutiōs : wherby they ar fully furnished indeed , with ring , surplus , service-book , and other preistly implements for the busines . The Apostle Paul Eph : 4. 8. 11. 12. teacheth , that when Christ ascended on high , he gave vnto men such gifts , that is , such ministeryes of the Church as should serve for the repayring of the saynts , and aedification of his body , till the work of grace were perfected in all his : and so he makes the work of the ministery , and the aedification of the body of Christ all one . Now who will say that the celebration of mariage , or buryall of the dead are in themselves matters of aedification , or which further the vnity of fayth . They serve for the generall administration of the world , and so are lawfull amongst Turkes , and Heathens , as to eat , and drink , or to perform any other naturall or civil work : and not for the speciall administratiō of the Church , or body of Christ , and therefore no works of the ministery , which is peculiar vnto the Church . The Church is a religious society , and so the ministery which is given to the Church is a religious calling , and so the proper works of the ministery must needes be workes of religion : which if mariage or burying the dead were , then were it vnlawfull for a faythful husband to communicate with his wife being an infidell , or excommunicate , in the dutyes of mariage : or for a brother being a faythful person to ioyn with his brother being an infidell , or excommunicate , in the buryall of their dead father ( for with such persons religious communion may not be kept ) whereas the scriptures do cōmend vnto vs these duties so performed , both as lawfull , and necessary , Gen. 25. 9. & 35. 29. 1 Cor. 7. 10. 11. 12. 13. 14. These are then civill duties , and so practised by the servants of God in all ages : whose practise also for our learning is recorded in the scriptures , and commended vnto vs accordingly , Gen. 24. 50. 51. 58. 59. 67. & 25. 34. Ruth . 4 : 1. 2. 5. 9. 10. 11. 12. 13. Math. 27. 57. 59 60. Act. 8. 2. Whether it be an errour in vs as in the 11. place ●e are accused , to hold : that Ministers ought not to live of tythes , and offerings , but of the peoples voluntary contribution , let the Reader , considering what is answered both by Mr Aynsworth , & Mr Smyth , and what is more fully written in the book before named , judge . But This sayth Mr B. is against the wisdome of God , who alloweth a setled maintenance vnder the law : and there is nothing against it in the gospel . But say I , as the Lord appointed vnder the law a setled maintenance by tythes , & offerings , so did he a setled land of Canaan , which was holy , and a sacrament : so did he also appoynt that the Levites to be maynteyned there , * should have no part , nor inheritāce with the rest of the Israelites their brethren . And hath Gods wisdome so appoynted now ? If it had I feare many would not rest in it , so wise are they for their bellyes . And where you adde , that there is nothing in the gospel against this ordinance ●● the law , the authour to the Hebrewes might have taught you , that the law is abolished by the gospel , in the sense we speak of : and the old testament by the new , in respect of ordinances : whereof this was one . If it be sayd that † tythes went in vse , and given by Abraham to Melchizedek Preist of the most high God , before the law , or old testament was given by Moses , I do answer , that so was circumcision ministred , and sacrifices offered before Moses : which notwithstanding were parts of the old testament , and assumed by Moses into the body of it , and so are abolished by the new . To conclude this poynt , since tythes , and offerings were appurtenances vnto the preisthood : and that the “ priesthood both of Melchizedek , and Levi are abolished in Christ , as the shadow in the substance ▪ and that * the Lord hath or deyned that they which preach the gospell , should live of the gospell , we do willingly leave vnto you both your preistly order , and maintenance , contenting our selves with the peoples voluntary contribution , whither it be it be lesse , or more , as the blessing of God vpon our labour , the fruit of our ministery , and a declaration of their love and duety . The 12 , and last errour imputed to vs , is , that your Churches ( as you call them ) ought to be raced downe , and not to be imployed to the true worship of God. Our mayn reason of this assertion , being ( as you say ) by making equall Paganism , and Antichristianism , you endevour to weakē by sundry exceptions . As 1. that there is great difference between Antichristianism , and Pagnism , for this is the worshipping of a false God , and without any profession of the true God : but the other worship the true God , & hold many truthes of God. Paganism was wholly without the Church but Antichrist sits in the Church of God , &c. 2. that we are to prove your Churches to have been built by Antichrist . We do not make equall Paganism , and Antichristianism , in the degree , though wee put not such difference between them as you do . And first we do affirm , that both the one , and the other , are not onely agaynst that 2. connaundement , but the first also . 2. that both of them may in their degree , and for a tyme be in the Church : as also that both of them may in tyme , and in their degree , destroy the true Church of Christ. 3. that as well the reliques , ornaments , and monuments of the one , as of the other are by lawfull authority to be abolished : and in the meane while to be forborn especially in the worship of God , by all such , as fear him , & his judgements denounced agaynst the same , let vs heare what the scriptures teach in these cases . The Apostle Paul writing purposely of * that man of sin Antichrist , testifieth , that he is an adversary and exalteth himself agaynst all that is called God , or that is worshipped : so that he sitteth in the temple of God as God ▪ shewing himself , that he is God. And as Antichrist cānot be rightly discerned of vs , but in his oppsition vnto Christ , & exaltation above him , so doth this his exaltatiō appear sudry wayes , by which he doth translate vnto himself the honour due vnto God alone , & his sonne our Lord Christ : as in dispensing with the morall law professedly , bynding , and loosing conscience , devising , and imposing forms of religion , trāsferring empires , & kingdoms ; & al these doth this earthly God ( as he is called ) by the plenary power of the seat Apostolicall . The same also it was , which Iohn for saw in “ the Revelation namely , that the Antichristians worshipped Divels , & Idols of gold , and silver , & brasse , & stone , & wood , which can neyther see nor hear , nor walk , & agayn , that they † worshipped the beast , which came out of the earth , & the image of the beast , both small , and great , ritch , and poore , free , & bond , & received his mark in their right hand , & in their foreheads . And is the man of sin , & divels , idols , the beast , ( al which Antichristians worship ) the true God ? Or is that notable idol their breadē God in the sacramēt of the altar , which they so much adore , the true God ? Yea are the Virgin Mary , & other saynts , to whō they pray go in pilgrimage and perform other devotions , & in whose honour they have built , the very temples we speak of , the true God ? Oh Mr Bern : that you should be dravvn to this ple●sor Rome ? Surely the hand of God is vpon you , & it is a fearfull thing you feel it not . And as Antichristianism doth not vvorship the true God onely , but false Gods , or such as are no Gods , with him : & therefore is both against the 2. & 1. cōmandement as hath been sayd : so neyther is Paganism ( as you speak ) without all profession of the true God. To let passe that the learned of our natiō have proved the contrary agaynst the Papists , pleading for themselves , as you do for thē , that they worshipped onely the true God , that which is written 2 King. 17. ( if there were no more scriptures ) doth sufficiently manifest your errour . It is there sayd , that * the King of Ashur , taking Samaria , & carying away Israell to Ashur , brought from Babylon , and other Heathenish Countryes , folk , and placed them in the Cities of Samaria in stead of the children of Israel . And in the same place it followeth , that those Babylonians , and other Pagans reteyning still their Paganism , and worshipping , as before , the Gods of their own nations , did withall worship Iehovah the true God. Of like truth with the former is that which followeth , namely , that Paganism was wholly without the Church , but that Antichrist sits in the Church of God. For first , admit it be true of Paganism in the land of Canaan , before the Israelites entred into it , yet afterwards it was otherwise , as the scriptures testify : and got too great footing in the Church , in that place as it had done before in all places . 2. it is not true you say that Antichrist sits in the Church of God : he sits in his own Church , into which the Church of God is degenerated : though there remayn vsurped sundry things still , which are of God. It is a great vntruth to affirm that the Popish Synagogue in the present state is the true visible Church of God , vnto which he hath promised his presence , & given his power . As Paganism hath subverted other Churches , so hath Antichristianism that Church lōg agone . And here I would demaund of Mr Bern. what he judgeth of the Israelites in , and after Ieroboams apostasie , especially in the time of Ahab , & Iezabell , when † Baall was espetially worshipped , and temples , and altars reared vp vnto him in Samaria ? Doth he judge them at that tyme playn Pagans ? Or was their worship simple Paganism ? I see not but , as the religion of the Papists , in the opposition it hath to Christianity , is rightly called Antichristianism , so the religiō of the ten Tribes , in the oppositiō it had to the law given by Moses , may fitly be called Anti-Iudaism . And for the Baalims then , and there worshipped , they were even as the lesser Gods at this day , which are called Patrons , amongst the Papists . The divell to the end he might bring in agayn the old Idolatry , craftily borrowing the names of the holy Apostles , and martyrs , by whom it was in former tymes overthrown , and driven away : and by this meanes it hath put on another person , that it might not be known . Wherevpon it followeth by proportiō , that as “ the temples , altars , and high places , for those Baalims , & other Idols , were by godly kinges to be razed downe and taken away , & no way to be imployed to the true worship of God , so are the tēples ( with their appurtenances ) built to the virgin Mary , Peter , Paul , and the rest , though true saynts , yet the Papists false Gods , and very Baalims , to be demolished & overthrown by the same lawfull authority : & in the mean while as execrable things to be avoyded by them which have none authority to deface , or demolish them . Now howsoever the difference put by M. B. is neyther true , nor to the purpose , if it were true , yet do I graunt a difference , not in respect of the things , but of the tymes , and that there was something legall in many of the cōmaundements given by Moses touching these , and the like execrable things : yet so as there is one , & the same generall , and comon equity , bynding the Iewes then , & vs now : & that I consider in two respects : the one in the detestation of Idolatry past ; and the other in the preservation of it for the tyme to come . And as the godly vnder the law were to sh●w their detestation of Idolatry by defacing and abandoning the monuments , reliques , and remembrances of it : so are they now to manifest in the same manner , their just , and zealous hatred of the same , or like impietyes : and as the kings , and mighty of the earth have in former tymes given their power vnto the beast , and adorned the purple-coloured whore with many ornaments , and with stately temples , & aedifices amongst the rest , so shall they in the day of her full visitation , strip her naked of these , amongst her other ornaments , and leave her desolate . Now for the 2. reason , who is ignorant how many thowsands in the land are most dangerously nourished in their erroneous , & superstitious perswasions by the howses themselves ( to let passe the particular both memorials of , and incitements vnto Idolatry stil appearing in some places more , & in some lesse ) knowing none other Church , to which God hath promised his speciall praesence , and wherein he wil be glorified , save in that of lime , and stone : & putting holynes in the very place : And how well your Church provides for this , appeares in sundry things ; as in whyting the walls of the houses , where you silenced the preachers : in bynding the people absolutely to the places , though litle care be taken , what eyther they , or the ministers , to whom they come , do there , so they deale not too faythfully in the Lords buesines : in tying Christiā buriall absolutely to the Church , or Church-yard , where the Minister , with all his holy implements , must meet the corpes at the Church-style , and so with singing , & saying , as is appointed , admit it into the holy ground . And lastly in teaching the people , that by keeping their Churches in good repayr , they shall not onely please God , and deserve his manifold blessings , but also deserve the good report of all godly people . And for the Papists all men know , what claym they lay vnto the places ( as in deed they do farre better fit their pompous religion , then the simplicity of the gospel ) what new life they continually receive from them , what religion they put in them , and what devotion they haue vnto them , ever by how much the more superstitiously bent , by so much the mo●e devoutly addicted vnto them . And so farre is that from truth which you say , Mr Bernard , that the godly , and Church of God have in Popery kept possession of those buildings , for the godly , which should follow them ; that , as they were erected by such , as were most superst●tiously seduced , so haue they been ever since , the proper posses●ions of the most dangerous seducers in the Romish Synagogue , the Praelates , and their Clergy . So that the morall equity of those commaundements in the old testiment touching the demolition , and subversion of idolatrous temples , and other the like superstitious monuments , doth as well bynd now , as then . Which commaundements are also in effect renued in the new testament , where the faythfull are charged to † touch none vncleane thing ; * to keep themselves from idols , which they cannot do , except they keep themselves from their appurtenaunces : to “ hate even the garment spotted by the f●●sh : not to † receive the least mark of the beast , but to go out of Babylon , ‘† which is also called Sodom , and Aegypt , spiritually , as for other sinns reigning in her , so for her idolatry amongst the rest : which I the rather note , that men may se , it is not we , but the holy Ghost , that compares together Paganish , & Antichristiā Idolatry . Lastly , where Mr Bernard bids vs prove that their Churches were built by Antichrist , their records , as Mr Ainsworth observeth , vvill prove it : so will their situation directly East , and West , with the Quyer , or Chauncell alwayes at the East end , and the rood-loft in the midle to separate it from the body of the Church , the prophane layity : their vacant places for Images abolished , and their popish pictures still remayning : and lastly their names , even the names of the Apostles , Saynts , and Martyrs , in whose honour they were built , and to whose peculiar service thy were consecrated . Thus much of the temples , which is the last difference betwixt Mr B. and me , and I confesse the least ; and this much also of his book . Something remayns to be spoken of the Ministers Positions , but very breifly , both bycause the things in them for substance , have come formerly into consideration , and also bycause Mr Bernard affoards them no confirmation in his 2. book , being shaken by Mr Ainsworth , as they are . ANd to omit the bloody doom which these Ministers passe vpon vs all ( contrary I am perswaded to their own consciences ) that wee are cut of from Christ for our separation from the Church of England , I will consider breifly of their reasons to prove it a true Church . THe first is , bycause They enioy , and ioyn together in the vse of those outward means , which God in his word hath ordeyned for the gathering of an invisible Church , which are , preaching of the gospell , and administration of the sacraments : which they will prove by the vnf●yned conversion of many : & by the scriptures , Math : 28. 18. 20. Eph. 4. 11. 14. First the Church of Engl : namely the nationall Church , under a nationall government , and Ministery , is a popish devise : the Lord having appointed none other Church , vnder the new testament but a particular congregation ( as these Ministers truely vnderstand . Mat : 18. 17. ) with a government , & Ministery correspōdent . 2. Before men joyne together ( as a Church in the fellowship of the gospell , and communion of Saynts ) in the ordinances of God , they should be prepared by the preaching of the word , and fitted as spirituall stones for the Lords building , & so joyn in covenant , by voluntary , & personal profession of faith , & confessiō of sinns : from which how far the body of the nationall Church of Engl : both is , and ever hath been , all know . 3. As the sacraments are no meanes to gather eyther the visible , or invisible Church , but do praesuppose a CHVRCH gathered already into covenant with God , of which covenaunt they are seales : so doth not the Church of England ioyn together in the preaching of the doctrine of sayth , which is the outward meanes for the gathering of the Church . The greatest part of the parishes , as they have onely the service book for prayer , so have they onely the homilies for preaching . And even in the Parishes where the word is best taught , and the sacraments most orderly administred , yet do not men joyn in the vse , but in the abuse of these ordinances : considering the confused cōmunion wherein , the vsurped authority by which , and the book-service according to which , they are dispensed . If the Ministers had onely affirmed , that they had taught amōgst thē such truths of the gospel , as by which the Lord might , and did sanctifie , & save his elect , or gather an invisible Church , as they speak , I should not contend with them , but should further ad , that I doubt not but such truthes are even in many assemblies of Papists , and Anabaptists , and to hold otherwise is a fowl , & cruell errour : but where they speak of enioying the outward meanes , and by them vnderstand the offices of Ministery , which Christ hath given vnto his Church , for the gathering and feeding of the same ( for which purpose they alledge Math. 28. 18. 20. & Ephe. 4. 11. 14 ) I deny they enioy the outward means ordeyned for the gathering of the Ch : neyther shall they ever be able to prove it , except they can prove themselves lawfully , and according to Christs testament possessed of some of the offices there spoken of . In the 4. place I would the cause , why these ministers speak of the outward meanes of gathering an invisible Church , & not of a visible , since both the quaestion betwixt them , and vs , is about the visible , and not about the invisible Church , and also that the scriptures they bring for the justification of these meanes amongst them , do speak of the meanes , & ministeries given not to the invisible , but to the visible Church : and if it be not , bycause they know , that if they had spoken of the means of gathering the visible Church , we would ( and that justly ) have excepted , that they do not enjoy , nor have not so much as taught amongst them , those doctrines of the gospell , and that part of Christs Testament , which teacheth the right , & orderly gathering of the visible Church , by separation of the saynts from the vnsanctified world into the covenant , and fellowship of the gospell , by free , and personall profession of fayth , and confession of sinns . Lastly , as the preaching of the gospell is the onely outward means to gather a Church , so though this meanes be vsed never so fully , and men enioy it , and ioyne in it never so ordinarily , yet except withall they ioyne in the vnderstanding , fayth , obedience of , and submission vnto it , and that in the order which Christ hath set , they are not made a Church by it according to the right vse of it , but do make themselves , by abusing it , a conventicle of prophane vsurpers : howsoever M. B. and these ministers , and many others do indeed make the word of God a very charm , in writing and teaching , that the bare vse ( they might say the abuse ) of the word , and sacraments by a company of people , though eyther altogether , or for the most part for feare , fashion , or with opinion of merit ex opere operato , and without all knowledge , or conscience , makes them a true Church of Christ. The Argument from the externall efficient , except it work absolutely necessarily , to the effect , is vnsound . It were senseles to affirme , that bycause physick is the meanes of recovering health , therefore whosoever vse physick , are healed : much more to affirm , that bycause the word is the means to gather a Ch : , whosoever vse it , are a Church ; since physick is a naturall agent , and worketh by a naturall power given it of God ; where the word is a morall agent , having in it sel● no naturall vertue , but working merely by the will of the authour , and supernaturall efficacy of * the spirit , which like the winde , bloweth where it listeth . The two next Reasons ( being indeed one in effect ) which the Ministers bring for the justification of their Church , are 1. that their whole Church maketh profession of the true fayth , for proof of which they refer vs to the confession of their Church ; the Apology of it : and the Articles of religion agreed vpon in the Convocation house . 2. that they hold , teach , and mainteyn every part of Gods holy truth , which is fundamentall , and such , as without the knowledge , and beleeving whereof there is no salvation . All which afterwards they reduce to this one head , as the onely fundamentall truth of religion , That Iesus Christ the sonne of God who took our nature of the virgin Mary , is ●ur onely , and all sufficient saviour : which truth , say they , whosoever receive , are the people of God , and ●n the estate of salvation : they that receive it not , cannot possibly be saved . Math : 16. 18. Mark. 16. 16. 1 Ioh : 4. 2. Col : 2. 7. These two Arguments , for substance , have been handled in the former part of the “ book , vnto which also M. Ainsworth hath given answer in the particulars : of which I entreat the Reader to take knowledge : and do therevnto annex these considerations . First , it is a very presumptuous thing for these ministers , yea or for any men or angels thus peremptorily to determine how much knowledg a man must have to be saved : that if he have iust so much , then he may be , or is it the state of salvation : if he want any of that , he cannot be saved . Who knowes by how litle knowledge the Lord may , and doth save a man , that is faythfull in the litle he knowes , and endevours by all means to further knowledge , and so to further faythfulnes ? As on the contrary , the Lord rejects many with greater knowledg , for their vnfaythfulnes , both in not practising the things they know , and in neglecting to know more , least they should learne that truth , which they have no mynde to practise for feare , or in other corrupt regards . And howsoever I do acknowledge a difference of truthes , and that some are more , and some lesse principall , yet do I wish more conscience in the application of this distinction . For whereas the ministers are by the lawes , and penaltyes , Civill , and Ecclesiastical , limited in their doctrine ; and both the ministers , and people in their obedience of , and to the truth of the gospel , and ordinances of the new testament , this is made a salve for every sore , that they have the substance of the gospell ; the doctrine of fayth : all fundamentall truthes : and whatsoever is necessary to salvation . In which defence ( as it is made ) there are these evills . First , in it men not onely endeavour ( which is too much ) the curing of Babell , but iudeed to make Babell beleeve shee stands in no great need of curing ▪ and that her wounds are neyther deadly , nor daungerous . 2. It tends to vilify , and make of small moment many of the Lords truthes , & ordinances , howsoever these * ministers wil not heare of it . And this will appeare , if the end be considered of these distinctions , and qualifications : which is , that men should setle themselves , without pressing further in the disobedience , and want of sundry of the cōmaundements , and ordinances of Christ Iesus , till with bodily peace , and leave of the magistrate , they might enjoy the same . And if † the Scribes and Pharisees were reproved of Christ for making the commaundements , of God of none authority by their traditions , do not they make the commaundements of God , and ordinances of Christ of small moment , who for the traditions , and inventions of men ( yea of that man of sin ) though supported by the arme of flesh , haue forborn and do forbear ( and , so purpose to go on ) the obedience of the fame ? which whether it be not the very estate of these ministers in forbearing to preach ( that I may let passe other matters ) for the refusall of subscription , and conformity , let their own consciences judge . And mark their defence . They beleiv , and teach that there is no part of the holy scripture , which every Christian is not necessarily bound to seek , and desire the knowledge of , so far forth , as in him lyeth . Here is a great charge layd vpon every Christian to seek the knowledge of every part of holy scripture : but no word of his obedience unto every part of it : as if “ Christ had not sent out his Apostles to teach men to observ , to the worlds end , but to know , what he had commaunded them : and as if † the word of God were onely a light and lanthorn vnto mens eyes , that they might see the wayes of God , and not to their feet , and pathes , that they might walk in them . The same Prophet in the same Psalm entreats the Lord to teach him the way of his statutes , that he might keep it vnto the end : & that he would give him vnderstanding , that he might keep his law : professing also in the same place , that he was comforted in GOD against all that confusion , which his enemyes would have brought vpon him , that he had respect to all GODS commaundements : and this respect was not of bare knowledge , but of observation , and obedience , as appears in all the five verses before going . Neyther therefore can the ministers excuse themselves from making some parts of the holy scriptures of small moment , and needles , as Mr Barrow chargeth them , bycause they advise the people to desire the knowledge of them , except with their knowledge they joyned obedience ; neyther ought the people to rest in that vnsound advise , considering that , * to him that knoweth how to do well , and doth it not , to him it is sinn : and that “ to him that knoweth his maysters will , and doth it not , many stripes are due . 3. This pleading by the ministers , that they hould , and enioy every fundamentall truth , and whatsoever is of necessity to salvation , ( cōsidering the end of it , which is , the stopping of the people from pressing vnto further obedience , and profession of the will of God , and ordinances of Christ ) is injurious both to the growth , and sincerity of the obedience of Gods people . For whereas they ought to be † led forward vnto perfection , this teacheth them to stay in the foundation , as if it were sufficient for the building of the house , that the foundation were layd : & secondly , it insinuates , that it is sufficient , if , men so serue God , as they can obteyn salvation , though with disobediēce of a great part of the revealed wil of God : occasioning them thereby to serve him onely , or chiefly for wages as hypocrites do . As if a child should be taught so far to honour , and please his father as he might get his inheritance , but not much to trouble himself about giving or doing him any further honour , or service . Secondly I do answer that this truth , which the ministers make t 〈…〉 onely fundament truth in religion is held , and professed by as vile haeretiques , as ever were since Christ came in the flesh . May not a cōpany of excōmunicates hold , teach , and defend this truth , and yet are they not a true Church of God. 3. I deny , that the whole Church of England : hath received , and doth hold , and professe this fundamentall , truth : how boldly soever these ministers affirme it . They graunt there are many Atheists in the land , ( they might say in the Church , for Atheists are , and ever wil be of the Kings , & states religion ) & many ignorant , and wicked men besides , who make not so clear , and holy a profession of the true fayth , as they should . And do these Atheists hold , and professe the true fayth , and every article of Gods holy truth , which is fundamentall ? Are there not many thowsands in the nationall Church ignorant of the very first rudiments , & foundations of religion , as the Apostle noteth them down : and can they hold , and professe that whereof they are ignorant ? Yea how can any wicked men hold , that CHRIST is their saviour , but they hold an apparantly in the eyes of all men ? for which notwithstanding these Ministers wil have them reputed true members of Christs body . I ad , that since the body of that Church or nation , consists of mere naturall men , and that naturall men are Papists in the case of justification , and look to be saved by their good meaning , and well doings , it is most vntruly affirmed by those ministers , that their Church accounts none her members , but such as professe salvation by Christ onely . They hold otherwise and so professe , if an account of their fayth be demaunded , as I have shewed by the testimony of Mr. Nichols , and could do by the testimony of others , if all men did not see it too evidently . And yet see what these men affirme and that confidently , and without fear , for their advantage : as that their whole Church makes profession of the true fayth ; that it holds , and maintayns every article fundamentall of Gods holy truth : and particularly that Iesus Christ the sonne of God and lastly that they that receive this truth , are the people of God , and in the state of salvatiō . Whervpon it must follow , that their whole nationall Church is in the state of salvation . And surely so had it need be ( in the judgment of men ) having the promises and seales of the covenant of salvation applyed , and ministered vnto it , and to every member of it . Lastly , though the whole Church of England , and every member in it , did personally professe the true fayth in holines , as all the true members of the Church do ( which are therefore called both “ saynts , and faythfull ) and that we had do just exception agaynst that prophane , and implicite profession , for which both Mr. Ber. and the ministers plead , yet could nor this make it or them a true Church . The bare profession of fayth makes not a true Church , except the persons so professing be vnited in the Covenant , and fellowship of the gospel into particular congregations , having the entyre power of Christ within themselves . As hewed stones are fit for an house , but not an howse nor any part of it , till they be orderly layd , and couched together : so are men professing fayth , and holines fit for the Church , but not a Church , nor of it , before their orderly combination into a particular assembly having in it the power of Christ for the ministery , government , censures , and other ordinances . A company of excōmunicates put out of the Churches order , may professe the same fayth they did formerly : so may a sect of schismatiques putting themselves causelesly out of the Churches order : so may many particular persons , never ioyning themselve● vnto any Church at all . You your selves define a Church to be a company of faythfull people &c. so is not your nationall Church , but many companyes : not distinct and entyre in themselves , and so onely one in nature , as all the true Churches of God are : but one by monstrous composition , in a praeposterous , and absurd imitation of the Iewish nationall Church , and government . Thus much of the Arguments ; in the handling of which the ministers insinuate agaynst Mr. Barrow sundry vnjust accusations , which I will breifly cleare . As first , that he will account none members of the visible Ch : but such as are truly faythful , not onely in outward profession and appearance , but even in the Lords ey , and judgement : bycause a Church is described a company of faythfull people , that truly worship God and readily obey him . But wherefore should the ministers thus interpret him ; doth he not speak of the visible or externall Church , and so by consequence of visible , and externall fayth , and obedience , which are seen of men . In their Articles of religion a Church is made a company of faythful people : & if they must not be truely faythfull , then they must be fals●ly faythfull . And for † true worship , and ready obedience , the Lord requires them in his word , according to which we must defyne Churches , and not according to casuall corruptions , and aberrations , brought in by mans fault . 2. They charge Mr. Barrow to hold that every member of our assemblyes is led by the spirit into all truth , and that it is evident , he would have none to be accounted the people , and Church of God , who eyther know not , or professe not every truth , conteyned in the scriptures : bycause he af firms in his Discovery , that to the people of God , and every one of them , God hath given his holy sanctifying spirit , to open vnto them , and to lead thē into all truth . It followes not that bycause he affirmes they have received the spirit to lead them into all truth , that he therefore affirmes , they are led into all truth , by the spirit . May not the Papists as truly avouch , that Paull teacheth that the Church , is without spot , or wrinkle , or any such thing , bycause he teacheth , that * Christ hath given himself for it , that he might make it vnto himself a glorious Ch : , without spot , or wrinckle , or any such thing ? It is then an il collectiō , that bycause one thing is done , that an other might follow vpon it , that therefore the latter ▪ which is to follow , is also done . And for the poynt : as it is the work of the spirit to lead men into all truth , & as “ all that are Christs , or mēbers of his body , have his spirit , so doth it follow that all the members of the Church have the spirit given them of God , to lead them into all truth , though it have not his full work , by reason of * the cōtrary work of the flesh , in this life , wher † all mē know but in part . 3. That Mr. Bar : holds every truth in the scriptures fundamentall , that is ( as they expound it Pag : 147. ) such as if it be not known , and obeyed , the whole religiō and fayth of the Church , must needs fall to the ground . Mr. Ainsworth hath set down his words : from which no such collection can be made : he directs them , & that worthily , agaynst these deceivers which knowing & acknowledging , that they want many speciall ordinances of Christ , and are burdened in stead of them , with the inventions of Antichrist , do notwithstanding encourage themselves , and others , by these distinctiōs that they haue the fundamentall truthes of the gospell , and whatsoever is necessary to salvation , and the like , in a purpose to go on all their life long in disobedience . For which men how much better were it to consider how it is written , that , “ whosoever shall break one of the least commaundments and teach men so , he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven , then thus to turn vpon them which reprove them for their vnfaythfulnes ; and misinterpreting their sayings most injuriously , to spend thus many words , as these ministers do , in confuting their owne corrupt glosses . Their fourth , and last Argument , is , for that all the known Churches in the world acknowledge their Church for their sister : and giue her the right hand of fellowship . This Argum. hath been sundry tymes vrged by Mr. Ber. and so answered sundry tymes both by M. Ainsworth , and my self in the former part of my * book : whether I must refer the reader , contenting my self with a breif observation of such vntruthes , and errours , as these ministers are driven vnto in the prosecuting of this Argument : as First , that , all the known Churches in the world are well acquaynted with their doctrine , and liturgy : to which they should also ad their book of ordination , and canons Ecclesiasticall , for their ministery , and government : then which nothing is more vntrue , Beza , which was specially interessed in these matters , will hardly be perswaded of the true state of things : touching dispensations , pluralityes , the power of excommunication in one man , and the like . It is most vntrue , that God hath sanctifed the testimony of Churches for a principall help in the decyding of controversies in this kind . It is ( though some help ) yet lesse principall , yea the least of many . 3. That Paul feared that without the approbation of Iames , and Cephas , and Iohn he should have run in vayn . Paul feared no such thing ; for he was both assured of his calling from the Lord , and had also taken , long before that tyme , good experience of the Lords blessing vpon his ministery both amongst the Iewes , and Gentiles ; and knew right assuredly , that his preaching was not in vayne . His care was to take away from the weak all scruple of mynde , or iealousy of contention amongst the Apostles ; he went vp to Ierusalem to confer with them . 4 : That Paul sought to win cōmendation and credit to the orders which he by his Apostolicall authority might have established , by the iudgement of other Churches . Whereas the Apostle Paul did by his Apostolicall authority appoynt those orders in all those churches he speaks of , as the scriptures quoted testify . 1 Cor : 4. 7. 17. & 16. 1. Besides , the Church of England : can win no great credit to her orders by the orders of other Churches , considering how contrary she is in them to all other Churches departed from Rome , whom alone in very many the resembleth . Fiftly , the testimony which Iohn Baptist gave of Christ , is vnfitly brought for the testimony of one Church of an other . For it was the proper , and principall work of † Iohns calling to give witnes of Christ : wherein also he could not erre . It is not so with , or between any Churches in the world . Where it is further affirmed , that there are cases wherein one Church is commaunded to seek the iudgement of other Churches , and to account it as the iudgment of God ; for which Act : 15. 2. is alledged : as it is true , that one Church is in cases to seek the judgement , and help of an other , so is it vntrue , that the judgement of that other Church , or of all the Churches in the world , is to be accounted as the judgment of God. Indeed the decrees of the Apostles at Ierusalem , being by imediate , infallible direction of “ the H : Ghost , were to be accounted , as the judgement of God : but for any ordinary eyther Churches , or persons to challenge the like vnto their determinations were popelike praesumption . To the Ministers demand in the next place . Sayth Christ to any particular congregation of the faythful in our land , Whatsoever they bind in earth , is bound in heaven , Mat. 18. 18. and sayth he it not also to the Churches of other nations ? I do answer that if Christ have so sayd to the particular cōgregatiōs , who hath sayd it to the Praelates & their substitutes , or to any officer , or officers , excluding the body of the Congregation ? Even none but he , whose work it is to gainsay Christ , & to subvert his order ? 2. If any of your parishes be such congregatiōs , why do not you as faythful Ministers exhort thē to , & guide them in the vse of this power of binding , & loosing , which Christ hath given them ? Or are not you content to suffer them to go on , and your selves to go before them in the losse of this liberty , yea in a most vile subjection to their and your , spirituall Lords , which have vsurped it ? And for the Argument it is of no force : for neyther hath any one Church in the world that power over an other , nor all the Churches in the world over any one , which the meanest Church hath over any her member , or members whomsoever . One Church may forsake an other , but juditially to censure , or excommunicate it , may it not . The same answer for substance may serve for that which is objected from 1 Cor. 14. 32. Besides , no Church can so fully discern of the estate of an other Church , as it can of the proper members apperteyning vnto it . Yea I ad , that in this respect , wee are better able to iudge of the Church of Engl : then are any forreyn Churches , ( notwithstanding our weaknes ) bycause they do not in any measure know the estate of it , as we do . Lastly , as that saying of the Ministers must have a very favourable interpretatiō , vi● , that the Church hath power to iudge of a man infallibly , that he is in the estate of salvation , so is their other affirmation , that the discerning of the spirits , and doctrine of such teachers , as arise in the Church , is such a gift , as the true Ch : never wanted , as popish an errour , as ever was broched in Rome . For how then can the Church erre ? or how can it be deceived by false teachers ? or how could Rome come to that estate of apostasie wherein she now standeth ? Or may not a Papist plead thus with these men ? Rome was a true Church of God. Now the true Church never wants the gift of discerning spirits & doctrines , therefore Rome neyther hath wanted , nor doth , nor ever shall want this gift : and so by consequence cannot be faln from the truth , as is praetended against her . To conclude , it is not truely sayd of these men , that this judging of one Church by another is a matter of salvation . The Ch : of Ierusalem was ignorant of the calling of the Churches of the Gentiles , as the scriptures testify . And I would know what the Church of England judgeth of the Lutheran Churches , as they are called . It accounteth of them , as of true Churches . So do not they of their Churches , whom they call Calvinists , but on the cōtrary repute them as haereticall . Wherevpon it followeth , that eyther a true Church may erre in judging of an other Church , or els that eyther the Church of England , or the Lutheran Churches , or both , are not true Churches . Howsoever therefore we do not make light account of the testimony , and iudgement of other Churches , as these Ministers accuse vs , yet dare wee not make idols of them as they seem to do : who wanting both the word of God , and practise of other Churches for their warrant , seek commendation by the testimony which some haue given of thē in respect of certeyn generall heads of doctrine , in which wee our selves also do for the most part concur with them . Thus much of the Ministers Arguments . Now follow their answers to two mayn obiections made by vs against the whole body of their Church , and their Parish assemblies . The first is , that it was not gathered by such means , as God in his word hath ordeyned , and sanctifyed for the gathering of his Church . The 2. that they communicate together in a false and idolatrous outward worship of God , which is polluted with the writings of men , vidz , with read stinted prayers , homilyes , catechismes , and such like . These objections have been els where prosequuted , and the exceptions taken by the Ministers agaynst them , particularly answered by Mr Ainsworth , and therein their both corrupt , & weak dealing manifested . I will briefly adde a few things . Against the former objection they take five exceptions . First , that they might lawfully be accounted a true Church , though it could not appear that they were at the first rightly gathered : as the disciples might be assured of Christs bodily prasence amongst them , when they saw , & felt him , Ioh. 20● 19. 28. though they could not have discerned , which way , or how he could possibly haue come in . Belike then wee must beleeve that the Church of Engl : was gathered miraculously , as Christ came by miracle into the place where his disciples were assembled . But the answer is , that these men take the mayn quaestion for graunted , which is , that their nationall Church is for the present , a true orderly gathered Church of Christ ; and that so sensibly , as it may be seen , and felt . Secondly , that they might be rightly gathered to the fellowship of the visible Church , by other meanes then by the preaching of the gospell , that is , as they expound it , by publique , and ministeriall preaching ; for which they alledge our opinion though vnsound , yet having force enough to stop our mouthes . And do these men deal soundly , who to prove a point in controversie , bring the opinion of their adversaries , which they condemn ▪ as vnsound ? The opinion is most sound , that men out of office ( for so wee speak ) may convert men to God , and that ordinarily : otherwise they may not prophesie ordinarily ; nay to what end should they ordinarily instruct , reprove , and exhort privately such , as are out of the way ? And where further they make it one thing for men to be soundly converted , and an other thing for them to be lawfully made a visible Church , they vse craft to cover errour . They vse craft in speaking of sound conversion , to conceal that prophane and hateful errour , that a visible Church may be lawfully gathered of vnconverted persons . For as our quaestion is about the externall , or visible Church , so do wee require for it onely externall , and visible conversion , or that which is seen , and discerned of men , leaving vnto God the judging , and discerning of that which is sound or inward ▪ according to the difference which them selves truely put from the † scriptures , in an other * place . Now that it is a vile , & prophane errour to hold that men converted , & wicked ( viz : so far as men can judge by outward appearance ) may lawfully be admitted into the visible CHVRCH , I have shewed at large in the former part of the “ Book ▪ and could if need were shew the whole course of the scriptures against it . Mat. 28. 19. 20. Act. 2. 40. 41. 46. 47. & 4. 32. & 8. 5. 6. 8. 37 & 9. 15. with 13. 42. 43. & 14. 15. & 16. 14. 15. 31. 32. 33. Of like nature with the former , is that which followeth , namely that men may by other meanes be lawfully made a visible Church , then by the preaching , that is by the opening , or publishing , of the gospel . For which they instance in those which follow Christ , and professed themselves his disciple● , who yet were not all drawn by his word , but some by miracles Ioh. 2. 23. 25. some by the report they heard of him Ioh. 4. 39. s●me by the desire they had to be fed by him : Ioh. 6. 24. 26. & that , Christian Kings have by their lawes been meanes to bring men to the outward society of the Church , vnto which men may be compelled . Luk. 14. 23. It is not true that Christ in his life gathered any visible Churches . These persons indeed , which followed Christ , were members of the visible Church , but it was of the Church of the Iewes , which Christ gathered not . He lived and dyed † the Minister of circumcision , and gathered no distinct Churches at all from the Iewish Church . Secondly neyther any of the things named , nor all of them together , without or besides the gospell , are means sufficient lawfully to gather a visible Church . Some of them as miracles , may be meanes * to confirm the gospel , and the rest of them to draw men to the hearing of , and outward submission vnto it ▪ but is alone is the hand of God , as Mr Ber. truely writeth , stretched out to sub du● people vnto him : it is the seed of the Lords husbandry : the word of his kingdom . When the Lord Iesus sent out his Apostles to gather Churches , the onely meanes which came into his heart was the teaching , or making of men disciples : and the Apostle to the Ephes : witnesseth , that the Church , or “ temple of God , is built vpon the foundation of the Apostles , and Prophet● , Iesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone● but these men , it seemes , will have the Church of God built vpon the lawes of Magistrates , yea vpon the reports ▪ yea vpon the bellyes of men . They would be counted Ministers of the gospel , & yet they make no conscience of ascribing the honour which is peculiar vnto the gospel , vnto so many other , and so mean things . And for Christian Kings , & Queens ▪ as as I acknowledge them for noursing fathers , & anothers , so may I not for proc●●ant parents , of the Church . It is vnreasonable to affirm , that civil causes , as are their compulsive lawes , should bring forth spirituall effects , as is the Church or kingdom , of Christ. By this Argument the Turk may make all his dominions a Church in a week , or two . It may as truely be affirmed , that Magistrates may by their lawes compel men to receive the word gladly : to stand in the estate of * salvation : to be “ saynts , and sanctified in Iesus Christ : to be † in him , and in God the father , through him ; viz : externally , and in appearance , and so far as men can judge : for such is the Church , and of such persons doth it consist , as the scriptures cited testify . And for the parable in Luke 14. 23. which they bring to prove that the Church may be gathered by bodily compulsion , as Mr Ainsworth hath justly reproved their folly from Prov : 26. 9. & sufficiently confuted their erroneous exposition , shewing that Luke speaketh of a spirituall violence , and compulsion , which the word of God offereth vnto the consciences of men : so do I ad for the conclusion of this poynt , that even the blynde * Pharisees did see , and discerne , that Christ meant by the former servants the Prophets , which the Lord the King sent to the Iewes ; as he did by the last , the Apostles , whom , when the Iewes refused the gospell , he sent to the gentiles , to compel them by the efficacy of the “ word ( which is mighty in operation ) to the obedience of fayth . Lastly what compulsive lawes soever the Magistrates may make , or exequute , it is a vile errour to think , & a sinfull flattery to bear thē in hand , that they have power frō God to cōpel an apparently flagious person to enter into the Church of God , and the Church so to receive and continue him . The Ministers 3. exception that their Church was gathered by the preaching of the word : and that the first conversion of their land to the fayth of Christ was by the preaching of the gospell , as appeares by the best historyes . And so they go on ▪ and tell vs of many from age , to age , called by the same meanes : who in the tyme of persequution sealed the truth with their blood , and in the time of freedom did openly professe the same . In the page immediately before going , a Church might be gathered without conversion : and now their Church was lawfully gathered , for it was converted to the fayth of Christ , by the preaching of the gospell . 2. It is both vntruly and vnadvisedly affirmed of these ministers , that their land was converted to the fayth of CHRIST . The defence of their nationall Church , and of the compulsion of all the flagitious persons in the nation to ioyne , & continue members of it , drives them to this absurd assertion , that the whole nation , or land was at the first converted to the fayth of Christ. And where they speak of many in all ages since called by the gospell which also they have sealed with their blood , as I confesse this with Mr Ainsworth , ( and rejoyce for the mercy of God towards them this way ) so I doubt not but the truthes taught in Rome have been effectuall to the saving of many : for which also there have many of them ( and no doubt , would many more if there were occasiō ) lay down their lives against Pagans , & Infidels . But these men should prove first , that the body of the land have been converted to the fayth of CHRIST , and orderly joyned into particular congregations : and 2. that it hath so continued ever since , even in the tymes , when the blood of those Martyrs now spoken of , was shed by the lawes civil , and Ecclesiastical , made by the body of it , through the seduction of Antichrist , for that purpose : and so that there needed no new gathering after the Romish apostasy , by the preaching of the gospell on the one side , and by willing subjection in free , and personal profession , on the other . That which they ad of sundry secret congregations in Queen Maryes dayes in many parts of the land , is but a boast : there were very few of them in any . But where they say , that these did vpon Queen Elizabeths entrance openly professe the gospell , it is vntrue ; there was not one congregation separated in Queen Maryes dayes , that so remayned in Queen Elizabeths . The congregations were dissolved , and the persons in them bestowed themselves in their severall parishes , where their livings , and estates lay . The circumcised were mingled with the vncircumcised , whence came that monstrous confusion , agaynst which we witnes . And shew me one of your ministers continuing his charge in Queen Elizabeths dayes , over the flock to which he ministred ( in Queen Maryes dayes ) the persequuted gospell . It is certayn the congregations ( whether many , or few ) were all dispersed , and that the members of them joyned themselves to the prophane Apostate Papists , where their outward occasions lay . As then an handfull , or bundle of co●●e shufled into a feild of weeds , though in it selfe it retayn the same nature , yet cannot make the feild a corn feild : so neither could this small hādful of separated people in Queen Maryes dayes sanctify the whole feyld of the idolatrous , & prophane multitude in the land , by their seating themselves amongst them . As then it is not true , that the body of the land , in the beginning of Queen Elizabeths reigne , did joyne vnto the secret congregations ( so remayning ) in Queen Maryes dayes : but on the contrary , these congregations did dissolve , and joyne themselves with the vnhallowed rowt in the popish , & profane parishes vnder their late ( masse , & their dūb ) priests for the most part : so neyther matters it which ioyned ūto which since the vnhallowed , & graceles multitude neither could by the word of God ioyn vnto others , nor be ioyned to by them in the covenant of grace and of the gospell , with the seales and other the ordinances thereof , to which they had , or have no right . Vpō the same groūd also I infer , that it is not materiall , though the people were not compelled to the profission of the gospell before the midsomer after the Queen came to the crown : if they were compelled to professe the gospel , of , and vnto which , they were apparantly , and notoriously ignorant , and disobedient , as they were . They knew what they were to look for : and so being , for the most part , of no religiō , they set themselves to conform , as the tymes were , to that , which they discerned the Queen to be of . And for the Preachers , and Cōmissioners , which were sent before this set day , for the catholik fayth of all the Queens subjects , as I think it was well , so was it not sufficient to make the whole land , or to prepare them to be a true Church : besides that the people were of the Church all this while : the same nationall , provinciall , diocesan , and parochiall Church , & Churches consisting of the same persons generally , still continuing vnder the same government , & ministery , & in the same will-worship , though in a measure reformed , as before in Queen Maryes dayes . Now for the Preachers you name , as Mr Knoxe , Lever ; &c. which exercised their Ministery in some of the best reformed Churches , during Q. Maryes reign , as the good they did to some few . ( in comparison ) by the truthes they taught , could not make all the Queens subjects a true nationall Church , so do we all know how hardly they were suffered in the begīning of the Queens reign , & that contrary to the publick Church-government , & ministery : as also that neyther they , nor any others , could or can be admitted to any Church by any ministery received in the reformed Churches , but onely by the ordination of a popish Praelate whether English , or Romish , it matters not : by which also it is apparant to all men vpon what string the English ministery hangeth . Lastly where these men say that many are dayly added to the Church by the ministery of the word preached , I marvayl how this can be , and from whence they are added . Addition is a motion , and in every motion , there must be the terms , or bounds , from and to which it is made . All they to whom they preach , are of the Church already : for recusant Papists come not to their Church ; and besides the number of them encreaseth dayly . It seemes then they are added from the Church to the same Church . Bycause this practise of adding men to the Church by the preaching of the gospell was in vse in the primative Churches , and this phrase vsed in the scriptures : therefore these ministers think they may abuse the phrase , without the thing : and so feed their simple readers with words of the winde . Of the ministers 4 exceptiō , viz : of the vniting of the Queens subiects vnto those professours , whose fellowship in popery they had forsaken : and of the course taken for that purpose by the example of the godly Kings of Iudah I have formerly spoken : of the former part even now : and of the latter els where , declaring . 1. first that the English nation , and all the people of the kingdom never was admitted into the LORDS covenant , by the rules of the new testament , to become a nationall CHURCH , vnder nationall government , as was IUDAH , and all the people in it vnder the old . If this can be proved I acknowledge my self in many great errours : if not it is vanity , and errour , thus to instance in IVDAH , and indeed to revive Iudaism , and the old testament . 2. That though England had been somtimes a true nationall Church , as was Iudah , yet that it did not so remayn in the deep Apostacy of Antichrist but was divorced in Rome her mother : whereas Iudah on the other side , ( into what transgression soever she sell ) was never divorced by the Lord , but still remayned his ( though vnfaythfull ) wife : the L. ever & anon , stirring vp some extraordinary instrument or other for her reformation , & the renovation of her covenant : with which also the Lord so effectually wrought , as the things are wonderfull which are written of all the people , and such , as never shal be found in any whole kingdom to the worlds end . 3. That the reformation by King Edward , and Queen Elizabeth ( though great in it self , and they in it vnder GOD greatly to he honoured ) was nothing comparable to that which was made in Iudah , by Iehosaphat , Iosiah , Asa , Ezechiah , and Nehemiah . These poynts I have proved at large * else where , and do refer the reader thither for answer , onely I will note some particular oversights of the ministers in this fourth exception : as first , where they say they have proved there was a true Church in the land before Queen Elizabeths reign ; they should have proved , that the Land was a true Church : for so was Iudah . 2. Where they say , that the noble men were sent by Iehosaphat onely to accompany , & assist the Levites , & to countenance their ministery , where the scriptures affirme they were sent even to teach . You will have no teaching but by Church officers : therfore you so put the scripture of . 3. That they say , Iosiah compelled his subiects to the service of the true God : taking compulsion as they do ; where it is evident the people did it freely : though I acknowledge he made compulsive lawes . 4 Speaking of the authority of magistrates over their subjects they bring in Ezechias proclamatiō , as they call it , sent to Israell : wheras the ten tribes were not his subiects , nor he their King. And lastly , that the Ismaelites were separated from the Church of God : therein acknowledging that IVDAH was alwayes the true Church of God : which I suppose they will not say of Engl : alwayes , or of Rome : if they do , it is their sin to separate from the true Church . The fifth , and last exception of the ministers is , that Mr BARROVV & Mr GREENVVOOD required that the people in the begīning of the Queens reign should by solemn oth , & covenant , have renounced Idolatry , & have professed fayth , & obedience to the gospel , after the example of Asaes reformation . To which their answer is , first that such a covenāting by oath is not absolutely necessary , as appeares in Iehosaphats , & Iosiahs reformation . 2. That the people was before that oath , & covenāt , Gods true Church : which their people also may be . 3. That sundry congregations as in Coventry , and Northampton did publiquely professe repentance for their Idolatry , and promised to obey the truth established . 4. They doubt not to affirm that the whole land in the first Parliament did enter a solemn covenant with the Lord for renouncing of Popery , and receiving the gospell . That Mr Barr. and Green : should requyre , that the covenant into which the Church entereth , should be by oth necessarily , is more then I know : or then we practise . But that they required , that the people , that is , the whole nation , should so have passed a solemn oth , and covenant , I know is most vntrue . All men know they thought the ignorant prophane , popish multitude vncapable of the Lords covenant , and the seales of it : & to have requyred of them an oth for such a purpose had been to have requyred of them the taking of Gods name in vayn . Where it is sayd in the 2. place that the people of Iudah were Gods true Church , before the tyme of that oth , and Covenant , it is true , and agaynst you . And I would demaund of you whether your people were Gods true Church , when Popery reigned . Your answer is , so may our people bee . You dare not say they were ; for then you should acknowledge the Romish Synagogue the true Church of GOD , and that you had sinfully , schismed from it , as Mr Bern. proves agaynst you , and himselfe : you will not say , they were not : for that would make against you in the poynt in hand : and would manifest , ( as in deed it doth ) that the course taken with Iudah ( being the true Church ) for her reformation , cannot agree with Rome , or Engl : as a member of the Romish Church for her reformation . To that which is added in the 3. place of Coventry , Northampton , and some other congregations , my reply is , first that this is not likely to have been the deed of the congregations , but of some two or three forward ministers , ( a few of the people it may be approving of it ) which their successours were as like to reverse . 2. They did not repent of their publique idolatry nor purpose to obey the truth in sincerity : of their prophane mixture , Romish hierarchy , and ministery , popish leyturgy , and constitutions ( according to which all things are administred amongst them ) they repented not : and besides they knew right well many truthes , which they purposed not to imbrace . 3. graunt it were ( as they pretend ) with these few parishes , what must be sayd of the rest which did not so practise ? with whom they make , and alwayes have done one entyre nationall Church , or what is this to the publique , and formall state of the Church of England agaynst which we deale . The truth is , these men thus practising , were reputed , ( and truely ) schismatiques in the formall constitution of the Church : and by which this their dealing hath no warrant at all . If we should object vnto you the Papists doctrines and practises , of two or three ministers amongst you , not warrantable by law , you would not admit of our exception agaynst the formall established estate of your Church : so neyther may we admit of yours , for the practise of two or three , disliking the present state of things , and seeking for reformation of them . Lastly , wee see indeed that those Ministers doubt not to affirme , that the whole land ( Papists , and Atheists and all ) did in the first Parliament of the Queen enter a solemn covenant for renouncing of Popery , and receiving the gospel : but we would see first , how all these swarmes of wicked Atheists , and most flagitious persons were by the revealed will of God capable of the covenant of the new testament , and the seales , and other rites , and priviledges of it . Otherwise this haling them into covenant with the Lord agaynst his expresse will , was a prophane , & presumptuous enterprise in it self , though I doubt not arising from a godly intent in the Queen , & her cheif connsellers being mislead by them , whom they too much trusted . 2. We would see what warrant there is in the new testament for this nationall covenant , or that all the people in a Land ( since the Land of Canaan was prophaned ) should unite into a nationall Church , vnder a nationall government , and ministery . 3. That which wee answered in the 2. place to the former branch of this exception , must here agayn be remembred . 4. this vndoubted affirmation of the ministers touching the whole lands covenanting in the Parliament , first inferreth that the enacting of civil lawes , and penall statutes by Kings , and States , doth gather CHVRCHES : for none other covenant was there in the Parliament . 2. It confirmeth the popish doctrine of implicite fayth : & that men may receive , and professe a fayth whereof they are ignorant , yea which they dislike and hate , so farre as they know it : for so was it with the body of your nation , the greatest part by farr being mere † naturall men , and so not knowing the gospel : yea “ evil doers , which hate the light . Our 2. objection touching the outward worship wherein the Ch : of England communicateth , comes now to be enforced . In the clearing of which the Ministers do ( to speak on ) insist onely vpon their stinted , & set formes of prayer : for the justification of which they bring sundry scriptures as Numb : 6. 2. 3. 24. Deut. 26. 3. 15. Psal. 22. 1. & 92. Luk. 11. 2. Now for our more orderly proceeding , I will reduce the things they say to three generall heads ( vnder which I will consider of the particulars ) shewing how in all , and every of them they are mistaken . First , in that they do confound , and make all one ordinance , Blessings , Psalmes , and Prayers . 2. In misinterpreting the scriptures they bring to prove a set , and stinted form of words to be imposed in prayer . 3. In concluding ( as they do ) that if Moses , and Christ might appoynt , and impose a certayn form of words to be vsed for prayer , that then the Bishops in England or others , may vse the same power , and appoint an other form of words so to be vsed . Of these three in order . And first , it is evident , that , howsoever some kinde of blessing , and prayer be all one , and so may be confounded , yet that solemn kinde of blessing spoken of Numb : 6. and which the PATRIARKS , and PREISTS did vse in their places , was cleane of an other nature . In prayer the MINISTER stands in place of the PEOPLE , and in their name offers vp petitions , and thanksgiving to GOD : But in blessing , the Minister stands in the place of God , and in his name pronounceth a blessing , or mercy vpon the people . 2. Whereas this duety of prayer may be performed by one equall to another , by an inferiour to a superiour , yea by a mā to himself : that other of blessing is alwayes from the greater to the lesser : and therefore the Apostle to the Hebrews , to shew that the Preisthood of Melchi-sedek was more excellent then that of Levi proves it by this , that Melchisedec blessed Abraham ; taking this for granted without all contradiction , that the lesse is blessed of the greater . 3. Mr Ber : himself in this book makes prayer one thing , and the blessing pronounced vpon the people , when they departed , another thing : as he also makes singing of psalmes a third distinct thing from them both : as there is cause he should . For first , the Apostle writing to the Corinthians of the divers giftes , and administrations in the Church , speaketh thus . * I wil pray with the spirit , but I will pray with the vnderstanding also : I will sing with the spirit , but I will sing with the vnderstanding also . Answerable vnto which is that in † Iames , Is any among you afflicted ? let him pray ; is any merry ? let him sing : both the one , and other Apostle making singing , and praying distinct exercises . Ad vnto this , that whereas in praying we are to speak onely vnto God , it is otherwise in singing , where we are taught to “ speak vnto our selves in psalmes , and to teach , and admonish our selves in Psalmes , and himnes , and spirituall songs . What greater difference ? In prayers wee speak onely to God : in psalmes to our selves mutually , or one to another . Neyther had Mr Giffard any advātage in the words following , where wee are taught to sing with a grace in our harts to the Lord : for by singing with a grace is meant such singing as ministreth grace vnto the hearers , contrary to that corrupt , or rotten communication . Eph. 4. 29. And in this , as in all other things , we must propound the glory , and honour of God vnto our selves . 3. There are very many both of Davids , and others Psalmes , wherein there is no title of prayer : but they are merely to be sung for doctrine , instruction , and meditation , as Psal. 1. 2. and many more . The Ministers write , that the most Psalmes that David made , were sung not onely as meditations , and doctrines , for the instructions of the Ch : but as prayers to God : bycause they are sayd to be sung vnto the Lord : for which purpose they instāce in one onely , which is Psal. 66. 2. 3. Well , not to fall to reckoning with them ( wherein they and I should not agree : for I would except against their picked instāce : Ps. 66. 2. 3. which all mē may see was not sung for prayer , nor vnto the Lord , as they mean , but for instruction , and provocation of the Church to prayse God ) if they consider it , they should have proved , not that some , but that all psalmes are prayers ; otherwise they may not be confounded , & made one ordinance , as by them they are . But to come to that which is specially to be observed : even those Psalmes , whose matter is prayer , are not prayers : neyther is the singing of them , the outward ordinance , and exercise of praying , And this is the very state of the controversy ▪ Which that it may be vnderstood the better , it must be considered , that the very same matter of prayer may be vsed diversly , and so formed into divers externall ordinances . It may be read , preached , heard , written , sung , or prayed . Now who is so simple , as to say herevpon that reading , preaching , hearing , writing , singing , praying , are all one ? If a man read Davids prayer , that * the Lord would turn the counsayl of Ahitophel into foolishnes : or eyther read , or sing the 6. Psalm where in his prayer , he professeth , that he causeth his bed every night to swim , and waters his couch with teares : or Psalm . 42. that he remembers God frō the Land of Iorden &c. doth that man therefore pray to God , that he would turn into foolishnes the counsel of Ahitophel ? or doth he professe , that he waters his couch with teares every night , & remembers God from the Land of Iorden ? or is it not evident he reads , and sings those prayers onely for instruction of himself , & others ? And so wee read in the inscription of the last named psalm that it was committed to the sonnes of Corah ( not to pray it , which they could not do without folly ) but for instruction . And as truely may it be sayd , that the reading of Noahs curse , or Schemies , is cursing , as that the reading , or singing ( for singing is , but a reading in tune ) of Davids prayers , is praying . But it will here be asked , is it not then lawfull for a man in the singing of Davids psalmes ( consisting of prayer ) to lift vp his hart , and to have it affected accordingly , as he can apply the matter in them to his present state , & occasions ? yes certaynly , it is both lawfull , and godly : but withall it must be remembred , that the quaestion here is not about the inward affection of the heart , but about the outward ordinance : and 2. that a man may so lift vp his heart , and have the affection of prayer , and thanksgiving , in preaching , hearing , writing , reading : and yet not perform the outward exercise , and outward ordinance of prayer , of which our quaestion is . Lastly , in psalmes there is of necessity required a certayn known form of words , that two or more may sing together : according to the nature of the ordinance , wherein many joyning vocally , do make a concent or harmony . But who will say there is such simple necessity of a set form of words for prayer ? wherein one is to utter a voyce , according to the suggestions of the spirit in his heart , and the rest to consent by silence , with saying Amen . By which it appeareth how vnadvisedly these ministers and others , do thus agayn and agayn vrge set formes of psalmes to prove set formes of prayer . Thus much of the first head ; the second followeth , in which such scriptures are to be considered of , as are brought to prove a set , & stinted form of words to be imposed for prayer . The principal scriptures for this purpose , and vnto which the rest may be reduced , are Numb . 6. 23. 24. Math. 6. 9. Luk. 11. 2. It is a troublesome thing that that these Ministers thus vrge the letter of the scriptures : as if the quaestion were not about their sense , and interpretation : which they should prove to be for their stinted service : as they should also disprove our reasons to the contrary . But herein they are vtterly silent , and think it sufficient to inculcate the words , Thus shall ye blesse the children of Israel , and say vnto them &c : & , when you pray , say thus , Our father &c. even as the Papists vrge these words this is my body . First then wee do acknowledge these words to be in the scriptures by them cited : 2. wee hold it lawfull to vse those very words in our-prayers , all , or any part of them , if wee be therevnto guided by * the Holy Ghost in whom we must alwayes pray , and by whose help we must make our requests vnto God. But the quaestiō is , whether Moses tyed , and stinted the Preists to that form of words in blessing the people : and whether Christ tyed , and stinted his disciples to that very form of words for prayer , so to be vsed by the one , and other , without alteration , addition , or diminution . And that this is not the meaning of the holy Ghost , I do manifest by these Reasons . First , these particles thus , or on this manner , & say , do not vsually in the scriptures designe , or note out the form of words , but the substance of the thing spoken of . Take an instance , or two . When the Lord sent Moses vnto “ Pharaoh King of Aegypt , it was vnder these terms . Thou shalt say to Pharaoh , thus sayth the Lord , Israel my sonne , my first born : wherefore I say to thee , let my sonne go , that he may serve me : &c. But when Moses came to deliver his message in the next chapt : ver . 1. 2. he doth not ty himself to the self same words , nor vseth them . He did not vnderstand , thou shalt say to Pharaoh , & thus sayth the Lord , of the form of words , but of the substance of the thing . The same in effect may be sayd of † Abrahams servant going about a wife for Isaak , who , relating to Laban the prayer he made for direction in the buesines , doth not vse the same words , when he tels him what he sayd in his prayer . It seems in his vnderstanding , a man might say thus , & thus , in prayer , though he vsed not the same words if he spake to the same purpose . Many more scriptures might I bring , as others have done before me , to prove , that these words , and particles , ( upon which these men vvould recken the words of their prayers do no way enjoyn any such stint of words , and sillables , but onely a similitude of matter , and are for direction therein . It is evident in the scriptures , that neyther Moses , nor the Preists , or other holy men stinted themselves to these words . 1 Sam. 1. 17. and 2. 20. Deut. 33. 1. 2. &c. 2 Chron. 6. 3. 4. &c. Thirdly , why do not the ministers now ty themselves to this form of words in blessing the people : they being * the Lords Preists , and Levites , & the Ch : , the Israel of God ? This blessing was no ceremony , or shadow to be abolished , but moral , & perpetual . 4. If the Lord Iesus in directing his disciples to pray , praescribe them a certayn form of words , to be vsed , when he bids them pray thus , or after this manner : & when they pray , say , then eyther Mathew , or Luke misse in Christs intendement ▪ for they ( as all may see ) record not the same certayn form of words . If defence be made , that they speak of two severall tymes , wherein Christ gave this direction , I answer such a man , that if that be graunted , it makes against him : for Christ intēded the same thing in both places , & at both times : wherevpon it followes that the vse of a certayne form of words , was no part of Christs intendement . It is evident that these words of Christ , pray thus , and when you pray , say , are a commandement , binding his Church to the worlds end , in all places , and at all tymes : and that when you pray , say , is as much as ▪ whensoever , or ●● what tyme soever , you pray say : as , when they deliver you up , Math. 10. 19. when one sayth I am Pauls , &c. 1 Cor. 3. 4. when ye come together &c. Chap. 14. 26. is as much as , when or at what tyme soever , they deliver you ; when soever one sayth , I am Pauls : whensoever yee come together . And to let passe all other scriptures , in the 6 of Mathew where Christ delivers this form , & speaks of this , and the like matters , when thou givest thine almes , v : 2. when thou prayest , v : 5. when ye fast , v : 16. that is , whensoever thou givest almes , fastest , or prayest . Wherevpon it followeth necessarily , that , if Christ the Lord intended a set form of words , when he directed his disciples to pray , and bad them , when ye pray , say , then , whensoever we pray , we must vse that very form of words , & none other . For the words of Christ are not a permission , as the Ministers insinuate , but an absolute commaundement : neyther is the quaestion , as they vntruely lay it down , whether it be lawfull to vse these very words in prayer , but whether it be necessary , and that when , or whensoever we pray : for that which Christ intends , he commands : and what he commaunds , he cōmaunds to be done , when , or whensoever , wee pray . And these things considered , it is no absurd obiection , ( as these Ministers make it ) that we never read the Apostles did use this prescript form of words in prayer . For reading of many formes of prayer they vsed , and never of this , wee are assured that Christ did not stint them to this form of words , nor cōmaund them when they prayed to vse them : for then they had sinned , when they prayed , and vsed them not . Christ Iesus in the same place teacheth his disciples as well touching almes , & fasting , as prayer : and in particular , that * when they fast , they should annoynt their head , and wash their face . Now who is so ignorant as to affirm , that Christs purpose herein is to bind them to these ceremonies ? and why not as well , as to ty them to these very words ? He sayth as well , when thou fastest , annoynt thine head , and wash thy face , as when thou prayest , say , Our Father , &c. yea touching prayer it self , he as well directs , and teacheth his disciples what , or how to do , as what , or how to speak . He sayth as well , when thou prayest , enter into the Chamber , & shut the dore , as when thou prayest , say , Our Father : As then the purpose of Christ in teaching his disciples , when they fast to annoynt their head , and wash their face ; and when they pray , to enter into their chamber , and to shut the dore , is not to ty them to that very form of ceremony , but to advertise them to beware of all hypocrisy , & vain-glory in these things : so when he teacheth them to pray on this manner , his purpose is not to ty them to the very form of words , but to admonish them to beware of all vayn bablings , and superstitious repetitions : and to ask in fayth of God the father who knowes their wants beforehand . v : 7. 8. Lastly , as wee are commaunded to pray the Lords prayer , ( as it is called ) so are we to preach the word of God. But as if a man take the scriptures , and read them , or some part of them vnto the people , or commit the same to memory , and so vtter it , this is not preaching : so neyther is the reading of this praescript , or repeating it by memory , praying . Indeed in preaching we must ever make the scriptures our text , and groundwork , and must speak according vnto them : and may take a verse , two , or more , & vse them , even word for word , as they fit our occasion , and may be applyed to our purpose : so in praying we must make this praescript ever ( as it were ) the text , and groundwork of our prayer , & must pray according vnto it : and may vse a petition , two , or more , or all in , or of it , even word , for word , if so the holy Ghost ( by whose immediate teachings , and suggestions all our requaests must be put vp ) do direct vs , and that wee can apply the same words to our present occasions , and needs . The same which I have sayd touching the preaching of the word , may be added in respect of the administration of the sacraments . The Apostle writing to the Corinthians about the Lords supper , advertiseth them , that † he received of the Lord , that which he delivered vnto them . Now he that looks into the 3. Evangelists , that mention this institution , and compares eyther one of them with another , or Paul with any of them , he shall finde , that the ordinance stands not at all in the prescript form of words , wherein they all differ ech from others . It is evident that the Lord administred this supper but once : & that in a certayn form of words . And that which the Lord delivered vnto his disciples , these four pen-men of the Holy Ghost delivered to the Churches . Now the great liberty , which they vse in respect of forms of words ▪ ( wherein they differ ech from others ) shewes , how litle this institution ▪ and ordinance stands vpon such stints : as also how far it is from the meaning of Christ , that the Churches should be thus short tyed in the vse of them . The same may be sayd of the ordinance of prayer , by Christ given to his Church : wherein the two Evangelists , that mention it , do vse the same liberty : as most likely would the other two also have done , in respect of forms of words , had they made mention of it . But graunt , that the words of Christ , pray after this manner , & when you pray , say , are to be interpreted , as these men would have it , yet do I except agaynst their service-book in a double respect . The first is , that the reading of prayers vpon a book hath no justification from them . If it be sayd , that to commit a certayn form of words to the memory , and from it to vtter them , and to read thē vpon a book , are all one , I deny the consequence : and though I approve not of the former , yet is the latter far the worse . For ( besides , that he , that readeth , hath an other speaking to him ( as it were ) even he , whose wryting he reades , and himselfe speaks not to God , but to the people , to whom he reads ) in the former , there is a kynde of vse , though not lawfull of the gift of memory : where in the other book-praying there is no vse of that , or any other gift . Secondly , it followes not , that bycause the Lord Iesus might impose a set forme of words to be vsed for prayer , that therefore the Lord Bbs of England may impose an other set form so to be vsed . The consequence is notably both erroneous , and presumptuous . So bold indeed are they , and so high do they advance themselves in their ordinances , and impositions . Bycause the Lord hath separated one day from the rest , and made it holy , therefore they wil also make other holy dayes : bycause Christ hath set down canons , and constitutions for the government of his Church , therefore they also will have their canons , and constitutions : bycause he hath appointed a form of administring the sacramēts , therefore they may appoynt another form , yea and that such a one as altereth , and inovateth the very nature of the words of institution . For where Christ would have the words of institution published , and preached , this is my body which is given for you , they turn this preaching into a prayer , the body of our Lord Iesus Christ , was given for the , preserv thy body and soul into eternall life &c. repeating the same also to every severall communicant : which Christ would have pronounced once for all , according to the nature of the ordinance . And thus they will † set their thresholds by the Lords threshouldes , and their postes by his postes : and rather then they will want rowm for their own , they wil pare of part his , yea wholy dimolish them . If the Lord Iesus appoynt one ordinance for his Church , they will appoynt an other ; and surely , so they may lawfully : if they be , as they are reputed , & protend themselves , Lord Bishops , and Arch Bishops of the Church , and spirituall Lords , over Gods heritage . To these things I will adde a few reasons agaynst this read stinted service , and so conclude both the matter , and the book . And first it cānot be an ordināce of Christ , bycause the Church may perfectly , and entyrely worship God , without it , with all the parts of holy and spirituall worship ; as did the Apostolick Churches for many years before any such leiturgy was devised , & imposed : and as do many Churches now : and as appeares by that which is done before & after sermons , where no such stint is read of , what may be done at all times , and in all places , where able & lawfull ministers of the new testament , are . As the administrations of the publique prayers of the Church is a principall duty of the minister , for which a speciall gift and qualification is required , so cannot the reading of a service book be that administration , bycause no speciall , or ministeriall gift is required for it . The two feet vpon which the dumb ministery stands , like Naebuchad-nezzars Image vpon the feet of iron , and clay , are the book of common prayer , and of homilyes : the reading of the former ( which is the right foot ) serving them for prayer , & of the other for preaching : which feet , if they were smitten as were the other , with the stone cut without hands , the whole Idol-preisthood would fall , and be broken a peices , as that other image was . And here I would intreat them , that have written , and are perswaded so much agaynst the reading of the Apocrypha books of the Machabies , & those which follow them , in the congregation , especially them , which have so sufficiently dealt against Mr Hutton , & his fellowes , to turn the face of their Arguments generall agaynst the Apocryphall service book ; and they will silence that book , as well , and as much , as the rest ( like women in the Church ) as they speak . As it were a ridiculous thing for a child , when he would aske of his father bread , fish , or any other thing he wanted , to read it to him out of a paper : so is it for the children of God ( especially for the ministers of the gospell in their publique ministrations ) to read vnto God their requests , for their own , and the Churches wants , out of a service book , wherin they are also stinted to words and sillables : by which also they , and the people with them , are vnder a greater death , then if they ate bread by weight , & drank water by measure . Lastly if this vse of the service-book be sanctified of God for the publique , and solemn prayers of the Church , & so deemed by these ministers , and others the forward people in the kingdom , what is the reason why they so seldom , yea or rather never , vse the same , or any other of the like nature in their familyes , but do on the contrary lay aside all books save that of the spirit , by whose alone , and immediate direction they are taught , and according to whose suggestiōs , they do put vp their supplicatiōs vnto God ? Do we not all know , that the more forward sort of proffessours would be ashamed of any such book prayers in their families . And hath the Lord sanctified that for his house which is not holy , and good enough for their houses ? will they worship God with that worship publiquely , whereof they are ashamed privately ? can private men bring forth the conceptions of the spirit without the help of any such service book , and do the lawfull ministers of the gospell stand in need of it for the manifestatiō of the spirit of prayer given them , for the vse , and comfort of the Church ? * cursed be the deceiver , which hath in his flock a male , and voweth , and sacrificeth vnto the Lord a corrupt thing . If these ministers then , and others , have a better sacrifice of prayer and thanksgiving , then their service book ( as their own practise both private , and publique ( when they have liberty , ) shewes they have ) and that so themselves judge , see them learn to feare him , that is a great King , and whose name is terrible , even the Lord of hostes . To him through Christ the onely “ mayster and teacher of his Church , be prayse for ever . He , even God the Father , for his sonne Christs sake , shew his mercy in all our aberrations , and discover them vnto vs more , and more ; keep vs in , and lead vs into his truth : giving vs to be faythfull in that wee have received , whether it be lesse or more ; & praeserving vs against all those scandalls ; wherewith the whole world is filled , Amen . CHristian Reader , whilst I was printing my defence against Mr Ber : Invective , his reply came forth in a second treatise ; to which I have also given answer in all the particulars which are of weight . And for that I have been occasioned by the one , and other book , to handle all the poynts in difference , I entreat the to compare with this my defence such other oppositions especially as respect myself , whither in print , or writing , till more particular ●nswer be given . The principall scriptures , brought on both sides for the present controversy , expounded and applyed . LEviticus 20. 24. & 26. 11. 12. pag. 328. 329. Ieremy 23. 22. pag. 103. 377. The two parables of the feild , and draw net , Mat. 13. p. 116. 117. 118. 119. 120. 121. 122. Math. 18. 17. Tel the Church p. 170. 171. 172. 177. 178. &c. to 235. 238. 239. Math. 23. 1. 2. 3. pag. 433. 434. 435. 436. Mark. 9. 39. pag. 77. Ioh. 10. pag. 385. 386. 387. 388. Ioh. 17. 6. 9. 14. 15. 16. p. 332. 333. 334. Act. 2. 40. p. 330. 331. Act. 13. 1. 2. p. 366. 367. Act. 1● . 2. 3. 4. 199. Act. 19. 8. 9. pag : 331. 332. Act. 21. 18. pa. 200. Rom. 10. 14. pag. 380. 381. 1 Cor. 1. 11. pag. 190 191. 1 Cor. 5. pag. 158. 159. 190. 191. 239. 240. 241. 242. 1 Cor. 9. 1. 2. p. 11. 381. 382. 383. 1 Cor. 11. 18. pag. 252. 253. 1 Cor. 14. 1. 3. 22. 24. pag. 235. 236. 237. 2 Cor. 2. 6. pag : 243. 206. 207. 208. 2 Cor. 6. 12. 15. 16. 17. 18. p. 322. 323. 324. 325. 326. 327. 328. 334. 335. 336. 337. Ephe. 4. 11. 12. pag. 159. 160. 162. 163. Phil. 1. 15. 16. pag. 119. 435. 1 Tim. 4. 6. pag. 378. Titus 1. 15. pag. 251. 1 Pet. 2. 9. 10. pag. 44. 45. Rev. 2. & 3. pa : 167. 168. 169. A TABLE OF THE PRINCIPAL matters conteyned in this treatise . A OF Antiquity pa : 32. 33. 50. The order of the separated Churches more ancient , then that of the Ch : of Engl : p : 40. 41. The Apostles cōmission peculiar . pag : 147. 155. 156. Wherein ordinary Ministers succeed them . pa : 156. Neyther the Bishops of Rome , nor Engl : the Apostles successours . p : 405 : 364. Authority to be obeyed p : 18. Differētly in things civil , & ecclesiasticall , pa : 29 : 30. B. The Church not constituted , no● the members admitted by Baptism . pa : 283. 284. Baptism in Rome , and Engl : how true , and how false . p. 284 285. How Baptism is a note of saynt-ship , & of the Church . p : 110 See Sacraments . Why wee reteyn the Baptism received in Rome , and Engl : & not the Ministery . pa : 390 391. 392. 393. 394. 395. See Ordination . C. Christs headship in a great measure denyed in the Ch : of Engl : pa : 261. in the administration of his prophesy , pag : 262. 263. preisthood , p : 263 : 264 ▪ kingdome , p : 264 : — 268. Christs kingdom , and the government of it spirituall p : 38. yet visible : p : 99. 110 ▪ The kingdom of Christ to be administred as solemnly , & publiquely , as his prophesie , or preisthood . p : 228 — 230. 350. Of the visible , & invisible Ch ▪ pa : 105. 106 : 311 — 313. Of the gathering and constitution of the visible Church , p : 220 : . 221. 292 ▪ 233. See profession of fayth . Who are true members of the visible Church , pa : 105 : — 107. See saynts . The Church no mixt company , but simple , and vniform , p ▪ 112 : — 121 : 337. Persons apparantly , and visibly wicked no true members of the Church , whatsoever in word they profess , p : 268 : 269 : — 274 304 : 305 : — 310. Where also Mr Bern : plea for thē is disproved . The constitutiō of the Church , what it is : and of how great account , pa : 73 : 77. 81 : 82 : 88 : 93 94. 95. 98. The Church superiour vnto the Officers , p : 200 : 201 : 217. & how , pa : 218 : 219 : 220 : 223. The Officers are the Churches , & not the contrary , pa : 127 : 132 : 211. Churches are before Officers , p : 126. 127 : 211. 221. 366. 396 397 : — 399. Without which the Ministers cannot exist , p : 393 : 294. The covenant of the L. makes the Ch : in generall pa : 283. 311 The Church of Engl : vncapable of it . p : 311 : 313 : 319 : 221 322. 338 : 339 : 340. Two , or three faithful people in the covenant of the gospell ( or of Abraham ) though without Officers , are a Church . p. 125 126 : — 129 : 190. 423. Having interest in all the holy things of God , within themselves , īmediately , vnder Christ , pa : 131. 132 See Ordination . The Church may censure her Officers , pag : 213 : — 220. The properties of the Church pa : 341. 342 — 346. &c. The Church to be gathered onely by the preaching , or publishing of the gospel of salvatition received , & submitted unto , pa : 89 : 90 : 91 : 315 : 447 : 457 ▪ 458 : 459. The Church of Engl : not so gathered pa : 89. 90. 91. 459. 460. Of repraesentative Churches , and that the new testament acknowledgeth none such , pa ▪ 194 : — 198. and of repraesentations in religion . pa : 231. 302 : 303. 304. Of corruptions in the Church , p : 64 : 65 : 81 : 82 : 260. 337. how to be forborn , born , reformed . pa. 15. 64. 68 : 16. No separation from a true Church . p : 247. How a Church ceaseth , p : 247. 248. 249. Of the differences betwixt the reformed Churches , and vs ▪ and betwixt thē , & the vnreformed Church of Engl : and that they both cannot possibly be rightly gathered , and constituted , pag. 41. 42 : 46. 47. 48. 52. 301. 453. 454. The Church of Engl : agaynst which wee deal , how to be considered , p : 319. 320. 339. Neyther the Church of Rome , nor of Engl : was ever a true Ch : as was Iudah , pa : 277. 278. 299. 120. 121. Much lesse did they so continue in the height of Antichrists apostasie ( as did Iudah in her greatest defection ) but were dischurched , 121. Mr Ber : Reasons to prove Rome for the presēt a true Ch : answered , pag. 278. 279. 280. 281. 281. 282. 285. 286. 28● ▪ The contrary proved , pa : 288. 289. 290. 291 : The reformation by King Edward , and Queene Elizabeth ( though much to be honored ) no way comparable to that by Hezechiah , Iosiah , and Nehemiah , p : 294. 295. 296. 297. 298 299. 300. The Church Math. 18. 17. not the Iewish Synedrion 177. 178. 179. 180. 181. 182. 183. 184 185. 186. Not the Praesbytery , or Ch : ▪ officers , but the officers & people , in the order set by Christ , the officers , governing , and the people governed , 186. 187. 190. 101. 192. 193. 194. 195 196. 197. 198. 199. 200. 201. 202. 203. 204. 205. 206. 207. 208. 209. 210. 211. 212. 213. 214. 222. 223. 224. 225. 226. 227. 228 229. 230. 231. 232. 223. 234. 238. 229. 240. 241. 242. 243. 244. 245. Of popish ceremonies , & conformity vnto them , p. 25. 27 , 65. Of circumstances , p. 21. 2● 33 ▪ 37. and the manner of doeing things , pa. 369 ▪ 370. The communion in the Church most entyre . p. 233. 234. Great care to be taken that it be holy , and lawfull , pag 133. 254. 255. Of Compulsion to religion , & how it hurts it , pag : 275. 298. 299. 300. 301. 302. 459. The Ch : of Engl : so ( & therefore not rightly ) gathered , after the Romish Apostacy , pag 292. 300 ▪ 301. 302. 303 , 304. Of Collections , and Consequences , p. 32. 45. Contentions alwayes in the Cl●● pag : 55. 56. E Of the power of the Lord Iesus for excōmunication , & the reformation of abuses . pa : 32 , ●3 . Given to every true particular Church . pag : 267. An essentiall property . pag : 347. 348. 349. 350. 351. Persons not vnder it with out . p. 100. 101 ▪ Difference between it , and separation , p : 124. F Fayth , and repentance not to be stinted . pa. 23. 24. All things must be done in fayth , pag. 18. 28. and in things doubtfull suspend , pa : 19 : 34. Of Fundamentall truthes , & such as are necessary to salvation , pa : 31. 32. 376. 448 , 449. 450. 451. G The difference betwixt civil , and ecclesiastical , government , and governours , p ▪ 135. 136 ▪ 137. 164 165. 166. 168. See Christs kingdom . Church-government a mere Church-service . p. 217. 137. 225. I. How w●e , & the Iewes one , pa : 196. 211. Their extraordinary priveledges . p : 248. No separation from that Church . p. 250. Their government no pattern for ours , p : 174. 194. 195. 196. 197. 198. Their Synagogues not as our Churches now . pa : 427. Excommunication , or dissynagogueing amongst them no divine , spirituall , and distinct ordinance , p : 187. 188. 189. 190. Of things indifferent , p. 25. 27. & their vnseasonable vse , p. 36. 37. K. Keyes of the kingdome of heaven , given to the whole Ch : pag. 146. 147. 148. 149. 150. 152 153. & in what order . 399. 400. ●●5 . L. Lawes ecclesiasticall in Engl : pag. 20. 21. binde , and loose the conscience , pag : 264. 265. 39. M. Ministery left by Christ , p. 192. 356. Vnlawfull Ministers not to be cōmunicated with , what truths soever they teach , pa : 17. 79. 80. 162. 163. Difference in the administring of doctrine , and disciplyne , pa : 165. 151. 234. 238. The Ministery of Engl : disproved , and the Reasons for it answered . pag : 162. 163. 173. 174. 175. 265. 266. 346. 356. 357. 358. 359. 360. 361. 362 363. 364. 370. 377. 378. 379. 385. 386. 389. 390. True ordinary Ministers tyed to a particular assembly , pa : 393. 394. 395. True Ministers cannot be in a false Church pa : 360. 361. Conversion of men to God no note of a true Minister , pa : 10 : 11 : 51. 69. 379. 380. 381. 382. 383. 384. 385. The Ministers in Engl : all of the same constitutiō , pa : 351. 352. Theires , and the Romish Ministery the same , in respect of the office , power to administer it , and most of the works . pa : 358. 359. 411. Preaching of the gospel no part or property of the Ministery in Engl : but a thing casuall , p. 353. 354. 355. Of the calling of Ministers : wherin the peoples right is pro ved , & Mr B : objections answered . p. 144. 145 : 146. 360. 361. 365. 367. 371 : — 376. Ministers by their office not to celebrate mariage , nor bu●y the dead , p. 438. 439. Their maintenance , p. 439. 440. O. Of offence p. 18. 19. 37. 39. Officers not simply necessary for the publique administratiōs in the Church , pag 137. 138. 139 — 144. 165. 166. 167. The brethren out of office not mere private persons , p : 423. 424. Of the officers vsurpation p. 367. 368. 367. 132. 133. Ordination may in cases be performed by such , as are no officers , pa. 400. 401. 402 : — 423. Ordination , & Baptism vn●●tly compared , p ▪ 413. See Baptism . P Praetence of peace , pa : 13. 14. 15. Of pollution by other menns ●●nns , and how it comes , pag. 244. 245. 249 : — 254 : 256 — 259. Of preaching or publishing the gospel pa : 70. 71. 72. 73. The true Church gathered by it onely . See Church . How a note of the Church , See word . The cōstitutiō of the Church , & it deceitfully opposed . p. 37. See Church . Of profession of fayth . & prosessours : p. 7. Profession makes not a Church pag. 452. The profession of fayth required by the scriptures , p : 90. 91. 270 271. 272. 274. That in Engl : compared with it , p. 58. 91. 274. 275. 316. 450. 451. Of prophesying out of office , p. 235 : — 238. R Reformation to begin at our selves , & so to passe to others , p. 24. 133. Praeposterous reformation in Engl : made , and desired , pa : 300. 301. The people interessed in the reformation of publique scandalls in their Church , ( in their places ) as well as the officers . p. 142. 143. 164. 165 : — 170. 242. 343. as also in other Church affayres . p. 190. 200 201 : — 204. See Ordinatiō , & Mat. 18. 17. exp . S. Sacraments , do not constitute a Church , but presuppose a Ch : constituted . pa : 91. 283. 284. how notes of the Church , p. 317. 342. 343. 344. not given by the Lord to any parish ▪ Ch : in Engl : p. 319. 320 Of their Ministration in England , p. 91. 92. 93. 425. Of Saints , & saintship . p. 107. 108 : — 1. 1. Of succession , see Ordination . T Of the Temples by Mr Bern : called their Churches p. 440. 441. 442 : 443. 445. 446. W. How the Word of God makes , & notes out the Church , p. 89 315. 447. Of the Worship in the Church of Engl : — p. 424 : 425. 426. 427. 429. 430. The vse of their devised leitourgy is not the true manner of worshipping God ; neyther can Mr. Ber : or the Ministers justify it , pa : 425. 426. 428. 429. 466. to the end . Errata .   pag. l. For contradictions , read contraries pag. 42. l. 20. For approbation read exprobration 62. 15. for svvord , read head . 89. 21. read , with Zerubbabel 94. 29. for discharged , read dischurched 107. 6. for discharging read dischurching 128. 19. for Ioseph , r : Pharaoh 175. 17 , for of read or 176. 27. for quality r : quantity 195. 36. for endeavours , r : endeavourers 209. last line . for false read true . 359. 1. for Eph : r : Epist : 422. 25. r : be in the 433. 16. for the , read your . 435. 9. r : would not allow 435. 16. for praeservation , r : prevention 443. 14 r : would know the 446. 26. for converted r : vnconverted . 457. 34. for Papists r : popish . 465. 12. The Printer to the Reader . I Gentle Reader . Sundry other faults in the printing are escaped , in words , letters , poynts ; wherof some shal be amended to thy hands ; the rest , in the reading help thy self by the sense , or otherwise . Impute not the Printers faults , to the Authour : but recken the most and greatest myne , and the least , and smallest his . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A10835-e150 Rev. 3. 16. † Levit. 9. 24. 1 King. 18. 38. † ● Thes. 5. ●1 . I. II. * Ier. 24. ● . 2. 3. two baskets III. † Prov. 24. 23. * ●●m . 2. 1. Ioh. 18. 38 Ruth 1. 14. † 1 King. 6. 7 Notes for div A10835-e550 † Pag. 112. 113. “ Gen. 31. 19. 34. * Ier. 52. 17 ▪ 18. † 1 King. 18 21. † 1 Pet. 5 3 * pag. 10 1. “ 2 Cor. 4. 5 Col. 1. 25. † 1 Cor. 14. 36. † 1 Cor. 4. 21. † pag. 33. Notes for div A10835-e1190 † 2. Cor. 13 ● Thes. 5. 13 † Iam. 3. 17. 2 King. 9. Rules for peace . Mr Ber. Answ. † 1 Cor. 5. 6 Gal. 5. 2. 9. Mr. B●rn . Answ. Mr. Bern. Answ. Mr. Ber● Ans. The Assertion . Christia● offer . Mr B. Ans. Mr Ber. Answ. Mr B. Ans. † Ier. 6. 16. Mr B. Answ. * Mich. 1. 5. † Cor. 5. 6. * Gal. 1. 6. “ 2 Ths. 2. 7. † 1 Ioh. 2. 1● Mr B. Answ. Cant. 1. 6. * 2 King. ●0 . 15. Mr Ber. Answ. † Exod. 23. ● . Mr. Bern. Answ. † Pag. 65. * Mat. 23 ▪ 4. Mr. Bern. Answ. † Tre●tise of Ceremonies † service book , Ca●● . 30. * 1 Cor. 9. 16. Mr. Bern. Answ. † 1 Cor. 13. ●● . M. Ber. Answ. † Rev. 15. 3 Isa. 62. 11. * Ephe. 4. 5 Iam. 4. 12. “ Gal. 5. 1. † Col 2. 16. † Mat. 7. 7 & 13. 44. Mr Ber. Answer . Mr. Bern. Answ. Math. 22. 23 — 32. Mr. Bern. Answ. † Mat. 3 ▪ 17. & 23. 10. Act. 1. 22 ▪ M. B. * Rom. 14 ▪ 22. 23. Ans. Isa. 50. 6 ▪ † Ioh. 3. 20 Mr B. Ans. Mr B. Ans. Mr B. Answer . Mr B. Ans. † 1 Sam. 2● . Mr B. Ans. † Ioh. 18. 36 * 1 Cor. 6 : 20. Mr B. Ans. † Rom. 13. 2. * Rom. 14. 13. “ Rom. 14. 19. Heb. 12 14. * Ier. 15. 19 Pro. 12. 20. Mat. 5. 9. * 2 Ti● . 3. 16. 17. “ 2 Cor. 10. ●● . ● . Likelyhood . Answ●r . † Act. 17. 19. Against Scotizing & Genevating Ministers . O. O. his picture of a Puritan . 2 Likelyhood . Answ. 3. Likelyhood . Mr B. Answ. Mr B. Answ. † Isa. 19. 18. Mr B. * Ioh. 17. 17 Answ. Mr. Ber. Answ † Gal. 2. 7. Mr B. † pag. 20. Answ. * 1 Tim. 4 4. 5. “ Ioh. 20 ▪ 23. * Hab. 2. 2 The 4. Likelyhood Ans. Answer to D. Bancrofts slanders . The 5. Likelyhood 6. Likelyhood . Mr B. Answer ▪ † Act. 14. 23. Act. 20. 28 ▪ Mr B. Answer . Mr B. Answ. † Mat. 26. 14. 19. & 47. 48. 49. & 27. 3. 4. 5. * Act. 6. 5. with Rev. ● 15. † 2 Tim. 4. 10. † Rom. 16. 17. 1 Cor. 1. 11. & 3. 3. G●l . 5. 1● . † Can. 4. 6. 7. 8. † ' Math. 10 37. Deut. 33 8. 9. " 1 Pet. 4. 17. Mr B. * 1 Cor. 5. 1. Mr B. Ans. Mr B. Answ. † Phi. 3. 13. 14. * Ioh. 10. 1● 7. Likelyhood . Answ. " Math. 7. 14. * Ioh. 4. 37. Heb. 11. 38 Exod. 2. 15 1 Sam. 18. 10. & 27. 1. 2. 1 King. 9. 3. Act. 9. 25. “ Mat. 10. 23. † Mat. 2. 13. 14. Mr Bern. Answer . Mr B. Answ. Mr B. Answ. Mr B. Ans. † 2 Ca. ●1 . 13. 14. Mr B. Answ. M. B. Mr B. Answ. † Math. 5. 19. † 1 Co. 14. 40. Mr B. Ans. Mr B. Answ. Mr B. Answ. † Num. ●6 2 Ch. 26. 1 King. 12. * Tim. 5. ●2 . Rev. 18. 4. † ● Tim. 5. 20. Mr B. Answ. Mr B. Answ. Mr B. Answ. † L●m. 4. 6. * Ezek 16. 46. 47. 51. 52. * 2 Chron. 26. 20. Mr B. Answ. Mr B. † pag. 79. * Preface to the Discov . of D. Ban. slaunders . Mr B. Answ. Mr B. Answer . * Act : 17. ●2 . 23 . -32 . † Act. 19. ● . 9. " 1 Pet. 2. ● ‘ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . † Act. 7. 38. Rom. 9. 4. Mr B. Answ. * 1 King. 12. 33. † Rev. 118. and 14. 8. * Ch. 14. 9. “ Mat. 23. 17. 1● . † Isa. 5. 7. * 1 Tim. 3. 15. “ Eph. 2. 23 Mr B. Answ. † Math. 21 43. Ioh. 10 16. 1 Cor. 15. 24 ▪ † Deut. 29. 12. 13. Mr B. Answ. † 1 Cor. 2. 15. * Rom. 1. 11. and 15. 27. 1 Cor. 10 3. 4. “ Rom. 12. 1 ▪ Heb. 13. 15. 26. 1 Pet. 2. 5. † 1 Cor. 6. 20 ▪ Mr B. Answ. Answ. Mr B. Answ. Mr B. Answ. Mr B. Answ. Mr B. Answ. † 1 Kin. 20. 13. 14. 15. Eccles. 9. 2. The Lords prayer in Rhyme : Mr B. Answ. Mr B. Answ. † Act. 20. 28. 1 Cor. 1. 2. Ephe. 1. 3. 4. 5. Gal. 3. 27. Phil. 1. 4. 5. 6. 7. Mr B. Answ. “ Gen. 17. Rom. 5. 20 Gal. 3. 17. 19. † 1 Cor. 10. 4. ',' Luk. 22. 19. * Heb. 10. 1 Mr B. Answ. * 1 Cor. 5. 4. 5. Mr B. Answ. † 1 Cor. 13 12. Mr B. A●s●● . Mr B. Answer . Mr B. Answer . * Gen. 17. 7 & 26. 4. Act. 2. 38. 39. & 3. 25 ● Cor. 7. 14. Mr B. Answer . † Lev. 14. 46. 47 & 15. 4. 11. 12 Hag. 2. 12. 13. 14. “ 1 Cor. 5. 6. 7. Mr B. Answ. * Rom. 21. 2. Mr B. Answ. Ex. 32. 27. Numb . 11. 1. 2. Ps. 78 17. 18. 19. 21. 31. &c. Ezech. 20. 37. 3● . Amos . 9. 8. 9. 10. I. II. * Is. 1. 2. 21. 22. Ier. 2. 21. † 2 Pet. 2. 4 Iude , 6. * Levit. 20 26. Gen. 4. 26. Mat. 5. 1● . 1 Pet. 2. 12. Act. 2. 47. ● Pe. ● . 7. 9. “ Rom. 2. 24. † Ephe. 5. 6. “ Gen. 3. 24 25. * 1 Ioh. 3. 12. † Gen. 6. 2. “ 1 Cor. ● . 39. * Isa. 5 ▪ 1. 2. 3 , 5. Ier. 2 , 21. † Rom. 11. 16. 17. “ Rō . 11. 17 * Eph. 3. 6. † Mat. 3. 6. Luk. 7. 29. 30. * Ioh. 15. 18 19. 17. 16. “ Act. 2. 41 42. 46. “ Act. 20. 28. † Rom. 1. 8. * Phil. 1. 3. 4. 6. 7. 8. “ 1 Thes. 1. 2. 3. & 2. Epist. 1. 3. † Hos. 6. 4. † 1 Cor. 5. 6. * Isa. 52. 5. Rom. 2. 24. “ 1 Cor. 5. 5 * Heb. 12. 15. ‘. Math. 5. 16. 1 Pet. 2. 12. & 2 epist. 3. 1. Mr Cartw. Phil. 1 ▪ 15. 16. * Psa. 125. 5. ‘* vers . 38. † v. 39. † Luk. 9. 54. 56. I. II. III. * Ier. 2. 21. † Rom. 1. ● . 8. * Lev. 19. 19. Rev. 4. 1. 2. & 6. 13. 14 & 8. 1. 10. 13. & 11. 6. 19. & 12 1. 3. 7. &c. “ Math. 13. 24. 47. Mr B. Answ. † Article 34. † Act. 24. Mr B. Answ. * 1 Cor : 5. 12. 13. Math. 18. 15. 17. 18. Mr B. Answ. † 1 T●● 5● 21. 22. Mr B. pag. 99. II. I. † 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Act : 19. 32. 40. * Mat. 16 ▪ ●● ▪ 18. “ Act. 20. 28. † 2 Cor. 6. 16 * 1 Pet. 2. 9. † Math 5. 4. Rev. ● 2● . VII . * Ioh. 15. 1. 2. 4. † pag. 112. * pag. 116. † Deut. 7. 7. Ps. 105. 12. * Math. 7. 14. “ Mat. 13. 31. 32. Mat. ☉ 18. 19. 20. I. Rom. 3. 2. & 9. 4. Ps. 147. 19. 20. Act. 2. 39 ▪ * Ioh. 15. 1. 5. “ Eph. 1. 22 23. & 4. 15 16. & 5. 2. 3 † Cant. 4. 8. 9. 10. Mat. 22. 2. 3. Eph. 5. 25. 29. 30. Rev 21. 2. Mr B. Answ. † Isa. 9. 6. Math. 28. 18. 1 Tim. 6. 15. * Psa. 45. 6. 7. Heb. 1. 9. “ Rev. 1. 6 † Ex. 19. 9. 1 Pet. 2. 6. * Cor. 1● . 21. pag. 90. * Act. 14 3. and 20. 7. 20. “ 1 Th. 5. 2. Heb. 13 7. Ezech : ●3 . 2. 3. † Num. 7. 2 De● . 1. 15. 16. Esa. 9. 2 Mat. 20. 25. Rom. 13 1. 3. 1 Tim. 2. Tit. 3. 2. Ps. ●2 . 1. 6. * 1 Tim. 3. 1. Act. 1. 17. “ 1 Tim. 5. 17. 18. Mat 20. 26. 27. 2 Cor. 4. 5 ▪ † 1 Tim. 3 , 1 , 2 , 4 , 5. * Tit. 1 , 5. ● . 9. ▪ 1 Tim. 3. ● . † v. ● . * Act. ● . 1. 4. † Act. 11 20. 21. Heb. 5. 4. “ Pag. 1●8 . † Act. 11. 22. * Rom. 16. 17. † 1 Cor. 5. 1. 4. 5. “ 2 Cor. 2. 7. ● . * 1 Cor. 16. 1 2. 2 Cor. 8. 7 † Col. 4 , 17. Rev. 2. † v. 20. 14. 15. † Rom. 13. 3. 4. Num. 8. 9. 10. 11. Mr B. Answ. * 2 Cor. 3. 6 * Math. 2● 19. “ Mark. 16. 15. † Mark. 2. 7. Rev. 3. 7. ‘* pag. 178. † Mat. 23. 13. Reply vnto Mr Smith pag. 195. † Rom. 1. ● Heb. 3. ● . * Heb. 3. 6 1 Pet 2. 5. Gal. 6. 10. Ephe. 2. 10. “ Mat. 25. 14. Luk. 19 12. 13. Rō . 6. 16. 22. Rev. 1. 1. & 7. 3. Mr B. Answ. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Mr B. Answ. * Gal. 6. 1. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 † Num. 11. 29. 1 King. 22. 24. * 1 Cor. 14. 3. 23. 36. 31. I. II. III. pag. 92. Mr B. Answ. * 2 Chr. 35 3. Num. 16 9. Rom. 16. 31. 2 Cor. 4. 5. † Rom. 1. 16 1 Cor 5. 4. 5 ‘* ●i● . 2. 15 “ Mat. 1. 7. 28. 29. Mar. 1. 22. † 1 Cor. 3. 22. & 14. 26. * Act. 1. 15 23. 26. and 6. 1. 2. 3. 5. and 14. 23. & 15. 2. 3. 2. Cor. 8. 19 23. ‘* Mat. 18 15. 17. 18. “ Col. 4. 17. ‘† Math. 18. 17. Rō . 16. 17. 18. Gal. 5. 12. 1 Tim. 6. 3. 4. 5. 2 Tim. 3. 1 2. 3. 4. 5. Tit. 3. 10. 11. * Rev. 17. 3. 4. 13. * Rev. 1. 11. † Chap. 2. 7. 11. 17. 29. & 3. 6. 13. 22. Mr Bern. Answ. * Pag. 98. † pag. 211. 212. * Heb. 3. 5. 6. Mr B. I. Ans. II. III. IV. * Heb. 8. 13. & 10. 1. † Heb. 10. 1. Heb. 7. 11 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 V. VI. * Gen. 41. 18. 19. 20. “ Gen. 9. 27 * Act. 28. 24. 2 Cor. ● . 13. * Rom. 13. 3. 5. 6. ● . II. * Math. 12. 49. 50. † Ioh. 4. 39. 41. 42. “ Deut. 13. 9. I. II. III. IIII. V. * 1 Cor. 6. 7. VI. VII . † Mat. ● . 37. VIII . IX . X. * 1 Ioh. ● . 4. “ Ps. 51. 6. Mr. B. Answ. † vers . 13. 15. 16. & Ch. 12. 42. “ Lev. 8. Num. 3. 12. 13. & 8. 14. 16. 17. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I. II. III. Levit. 11. 44. 1 Pet. 1. 15. 16. * Lev. 20. 14. Deut. 17. 12. & 19. 19. * Psal. 101. ● . “ 1 Chron. 15. 12. 13. 14. 15. Mr. B. Answ. Mr. B. Answ. Mr B. Answ. † Exod. 19. 5. 6. Lev. 20. 24. 26. Deut. 29. 10. 11. 12. 13. 14. 15. † Deut. 12. 5. 6. 7. “ Deut. 17. 8. 9. 10. 11. 12. Ios. 18. 1. 1 King. 8. 10. 29. * Exod. 29. 38. 39. 4● . 43. 45. 2 Chro. 19. 8. ● . 10. 11. “ Exo. 28. 9. 10. 11. 12 15. 16. 17. 18. 19. 2● . 29. 30. † Exo. 25. 30. Lev. 24 5. 6. 7. 8. † Act ●0 . 28. 1 Pet. 5 2. 3. 1 Cor. ● . 4. & 11. 17. 20. & 14. 23. † Heb. 8. 13 “ Heb. 5. & 6. * Num. 18 † 2 Chron. 13. 5. “ Eph. 2. 12. and 3. 6. * Gen. 17. 7. Gal. 3. 17. † Numb . 3. 67. “ Deut. 17 9. 2 Chron. 1● . 5. 6. * Ex. 18. 13. Ruth . 4. 2. † Numb . 16 9. 2. 2 Chrō . 35. 3. “ pag. 92. † pag. 178. Mr B. Answer . Mr B. Ans. † ●●t ▪ 14. 2● . and 6. 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. Mr B. Ans. Mr B. Ans. Mr Smyth pag. ●4 . 2 Cor. 2. 6. pag. 95. 98. Mr B. ●ns . “ first book pag. 98. * Maldonatus ●●on Math 18. * pag. 180. Mr B. Answ. † Eph. 4. 4. “ Chap. 3. 6. * Luk. 19. 9. † Rom. 11. 16. 20. “ Act. 20. 17. Mr B. Ans. Mr B. Ans. * Prov. 14. 15. “ Gal. 1. 9. Deut. 7. 26 † Col. 4. 17. “ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 I. II. “ Ezek. 44 10. 12. 13. III. * Mat. 23. 8. † Lev. 1● . 17. “ verse 4. * pag. 92. † Col. 4. 1● . † Cor. ● . 12. 13. IIII. V. “ Rom. 1. ●7 . * 1 Cor. 5. 4. 5. VI. “ 2 Thes. ● . 4. † 2 Chron. 35. 3. Num. 16. 9 Eze. 44. 11. 2 Cor. 4. 5. * Exo. 19. 6. 1 Pet. 2. 9. Rev. 1. 6. †† ● Cor. 11. 7. 5. 9. “ Math. 23. 17. 19. * Levit. 4. 3●-2● . ●● . VII . I. * Gal. 1. 8. † 2 Cor. 5. 19. 2● . II. III. * ●●h . 4. 28 29. 30 40. * 2 Thes. 2. 3. 8. † vers . 9. 10. “ Rom. 4. 12. 18. Gen. 12. 3 ▪ Gal. 3. 6. 7. ● . 15. 16. 17. IX . Mr B. Answ. * 2 Cor. 4. 2● . “ Cant. ● . 9 ●0 . Ephe. ● ▪ 29. 30. 32. † 1 Cor. 4. 1 2. Mr B. Answer . ●● Bern. ●●sw . Mr B. Answ. † 2 Cor. 4. 5. * Math. 2. 27. 28. * 1 Cor 4. 15. † 1 Cor. 5. 4. 12. “ Math. 16. 19. I. II. III. IIII. V. ●ag . 92. ●pon 1 Cor. ●5 . VI. * Lev. 19. 7. “ 1 Thes. 5 4. † 1 Tim. 5 0. 2 Cor. 2. 6 ●II . I. II. † Act. 20. 28. III. * 1 Thes. 13. “ 1 Tim. 20. IIII † 1 Cor. 16. 1. ● . VIII . IX . Luk. 12. 14 † Math. 18. 1● . X. XI . XII . I. II. * Rom. 12. 6. “ 1 Cor. 14. 3. I. II. III. IIII. “ Ephe. 2. 20. & 3. 5. V. * 1 Tim. 3. 2. VI. † Tit. 1. 9. Act. 6. 4. VII . XIII . XIIII . * E● : 12. ●5 ▪ ● book . pag. 229. 1 Cor. ● . 2. † Exo. 12. 15 , 8. 15. 2● 2● I. II. Mr B. Answ. † 1 T●●●s . 5. 14. Heb. 3. 12. 13. & 10. 24. 25. ● . 1 Ioh 3. 12. † Gen. 4. 9. * ●●● 7. 1. 4 , 5 ▪ ●● . 11. 12 ▪ ●●●6 . & 22 , 2● . II. III. “ 1 Sam. 13 22. ‘† Eph. 4. 4. v. 5. I. II. III. I. II. R●v . 2. 4. Ca. 3. 16 III. Pa● . 171. 572. 173. of your 2. book . Mr Ber. Answ. * Ezek. 44. 6. 7. 9. †‘ Lev. 16 15. 16. 20. 20. 33. 34. Mr B. Answer . * 1 Cor. 5. 6. † Ex. 12. 15 ‘* 2 book p. 210. Mr B. Answ. 1 King. 11. 29. 30. 31. 32 , 33. 2 Chro. 11. 14. 16. I. II. pag. 1● 1. † 1 Cor. 7 ▪ 14. Mr B. Answ. * Zach. 7. 11. 12. Mr. B. Answ. “ pag. 104. 105. 106. 107. * pag. 171. 172. 173. 174. * 2 Cor : 6. 16. 18. † Mat. 6. 9. “ 1 Cor. 11 1● . 17. † Mat. 26. 26. 27. 1 Cor. 11. 16. 17. 1 Cor. 1● . * Eccles. 4. 9. 10. Mr. B. Answ. † Numb . 19. 13. 22. Lev. 15. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. 9. 10. 11. 19. 20. 21. &c. * Rev. 11. 8. and 14. 8 & 18. ● . 4 ▪ † Ezek. 44. 7 9. * Deut. 7. 26. Iosh. 7. Mr Bern. 2. book . p. 176. Answ. Mr B. Answ. “ Gen. 34. 24. Mr. B. Answ. Rev. 3. ● . Mr B. Answ. Mr B. Answ. Mr B. Answ. * 2 Cor. 4. 4 † Ioh. 8. 44 “ 1 Ioh 3. 8 *‘ Rev. 2. 10. I. II. III. I. * Rom. 12. 1. & 15. 16 II. † Rom. 8. 26. 27. 1 Cor. 12. 7 III. Heb. 13. 15 Hos. 14. 3. * 2 Cor. 8. 1. 4. and 9. 5 ▪ 7 Phil. 4. 18. Heb. 13. 16 † Rev. 18. 2 I. “ Rev. 15. 3 II. * Psal. 45. 6. III. † Pag. 260. 261. Mr B. Answ. Mr B. Answ. I. II. III. pag. 180. IIII. pag. 92. † 1 Cor. 5. 4. 5. V. Act. ● . ●2 ●3 . and ●4 . ● . 17. 18. Mr. B. Answ. II. III. IIII. V. VI. VII . pag. 112. Mr B. Answ. pag. 119. 1●● . † ● King. 5. 6. 17. 18. & ● . 7. 2 Ch● ▪ ● . 8. 9 ▪ 2 Chr. 2●● . Lev. 22. 9. 20. 21. &c. and 27 1. 1 Pet. 2 ● Cor. 6. 16 Rev. 11. 1. Heb. 13. ● . “ Ch. 2. 26 * Act. 15. 9. Gal. 5. 6. 1 Ioh. 5. 1 Mr B. Answ. “ Pag 218. † pag. 113. pag. 146. ●4● . 246. † Rom. 11. 16. 20. * Rom. 1. ● 7. “ Ioh. 15. 19. and 17. 14. 15. 16. † Act. 10. 35. * ch . 20. ●8 “ 1 Cor. 1. 2 † Act. 9. 31 * Gal. 1. ● . ●1 . “ Rev. 1. ● . † Act. 14. 23. and 20. 17. 28. Iob. 1. 1. 1 Th. ● . 12. Tit. 1. ● . † ● Th. 2. 3 4. * v. 7. ● Tim. 3. 16. † Rev. 1● . 2 4. I. Mr B. Answ. II. Mr B. Answ. † Ex. 25. 8 2 Cor. 6. 16 * Math. 11. 20. Rev. 1. 13. III. Mr B. Answ. † Rev. 18. 4 ▪ * ●en . 1● . ● . Act. 1. 39. “ Deut. ●9 . 29. † Gen. 4. 16 ●●d ● . 2. * Hos. 2. 2. 5. † Rom. 11 ▪ 17. * Ezek. 19 20. “ Ex. 20. 5 † Ephe. 2. 3 Ps. 51. 5. pag. 132. * Rom. 4. 11. † Gen. 17 7 v. 11. 14. Deut. 29. 10. 11. 12. 13. &c. * Gen. 34. 24. † 2 King. 25. 9. 15. Ier. 52. 13. 18. * Dan. 5. 2. 3. “ Rev. 18. 4. † 2 Cor. 6. 17. * 1 Pet. 2. 5. 2 Cor. 6 16. Mr. B. Answ. V. Mr B. † Ezek. 13 10. I. II. III. pag. 280. * pag. 161. IIII. † Ch. 4. 26 * ch . 14. 8 ▪ and 15. 2. with ch . 21. 2. 3. “ I●r . 50 8. 9. 10. &c. and 51. 6. 7 8. 9. Is●y . 21 9. † E●ra . 1. 2. 3. 5. &c. * R●v . 14. 8. and 18. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8. and 1● 2. 3. “ pag. 133. † pag. 265 * pag. 110. 111. “ pag. 114. † pag. 129. * pag. 142. VI. * Rom. 11. ●7 . 20. ●1 . † Rev. ● . ● . v. 4. v. 5. v. 12. 16. v. 18. 2● . 2● . pag. 14● . 14● . 16● . A●● . 1. 39. and 3 25. 1 ●●● . 1● . ● . 4. Eph. 3. 6 * I●d 24. 4● . A●● . 2. 1. 2. 5 6. — 14. ●● . 〈…〉 3. ● . 14. A●● . ● . ●● . Gal. 1. 21. 146 * 14. 7. Est. ● . 4. † Ezra . 6. 21. * pag. 1●5 . “ 2 King. 1● . 3. 4. 5. 6 2 Chr. 29. 2. 3. 5. 19. 20. 21. &c. and 30. 1. 2 &c. and 31. 1. &c. ● King. ●● . ● . and 23. 1. 2. 4. 5. 6. 7 8. -24. 25. 2 Chr. 3● . ● . 3. 4. 5. ●●3 . † Ezra . ● 61. * 2 King. 23. 20. “ vers . 8. 9 Ezech. 4 ▪ 10. 13. † 2 Chr. ●9 5. 12. ●1 . ● ▪ ●e● . 4. 〈…〉 ▪ 31 ▪ 35 36 † 〈…〉 . * 〈…〉 ● Chr 34 ▪ 30 31. 32 〈…〉 . 2● † 〈…〉 . . † 〈…〉 2. 3. 4. 5. ● 7. ● . 9. 1● . ●7 . ● 18. chap. ● . 1 2 ch . 1● . 1. 2● 29. * 2 Chr. 14 2. ● . 4. " ch . 1● . 8. 9. 12. 13. 1● Pag. 212. “ Ps. 101. 8 * 2 Chr. 15. 12. 13. † 2 Sam. 5. 1. 2. 3. 5. * vr 14. pag. 246. 247. pag. 145. Mr. B. Answ. † 2 Cor. 9. 13. v. 7. ●h . 15. 9. 10 12. 15. † 1 Pet. 2. 5 * 1 Cor. 15. 45. Ephe . 2. 20. Mr B. Answ. Pag. 116. † 1 Cor. 3. 11. * Ephe. 1. ●2 . 23. † Math. 23 8. I. Mr. B. Answ. † 2 Cor. 6. 14. † 1 Tim. ● . 8. Tit. 1. 15. Iam. 2. 17. 20. * 2 Cor. 6. 15. 16. II. Mr B. Answ. III. Mr B. Answ. † 2 Tim. 3. ● . * Tit. 1. 16. † pag. 277. pag. 125. ●●● B. pag. 136. † Ro● . 3. a●●● . “ Iam. 2. * Cant. 6. 8. Ephe. 4. 4. & 1. 22. 23 Act. 20. 28. pag. 279. Mr B. Answ. † Math. 13. 19. * Mat. 22. 4. 5. 6. Mr R. Answ. Mr B. Answ. Mr B. Answ. 2 Sam. 1. pag. 249. 250. &c. Heb. 6. 1. † Ioh. 3. 20. I. * Gal. 5. 1● . † Psal. 50. 16. 17. II. III. IIII. pag. 140. Mr B. Answ. † ver . 14. † Exod. 34. 16. Mr B. Answ. 1 Cor. 5. Canon 4. 6 7. 8 ▪ Mr B. Answ : I , II. * Cor. ● . 21 † Math. ● . 14. “ Eph. 5. ● . III. IIII. vers . 16. 17. “ G●● . 6. 16 pag. 136. Mr B. Answ. pag. 176. † R● . 9. 4. “ Isa. 5. ● . 7 Math. 21. 33. 34. Mr B. Answ. “ ●●● . 2. 15. 16. 〈◊〉 4. Mr B. Answ. Pag. 145. “ Mat. 7. Rom. 11. Mr B. Answ. I. II. III. Pag. 254. Mat. 27. 24. 17. with Luk. 23. 34. vers . 17. 1 Cor. 12. 2. 13. 27. Mr B. Answ. † 1 Cor. 4. 7. Mr B. Answ. * pag. 132. 225. 226. I. Rom. 8. 14. Gal. 5. 15. 2 Tim 2. 26. 1 Ioh. ●3 . 8. I● . † Ezech. 18 & 11. 12. 13. “ Rev. 22. 1● . see also chap● . 2● . 8. † 1 Cor. 5. 11. * Ephe. 5. 5 ▪ * Phil. 3. 19. ‘* Ch : 1. 15 16. † 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Pag. 2● ▪ ● . Mr B. Answ. “ 1 Cor. 10 21. † 1 Cor. 3. 6. 9. † ●ere . 31. 3● 33. 34. Heb 8. 8. 10. 11. 12. Pag. 153. * Chap. 9. 7. 8. * 1 Ioh. ● . 8 Mr B. “ ●ag ●83 . ●84 . ●85 . Answ. † pag. 13. 14. * Pag. 122 132. Art. 19. † Pag. 286 * Rev. 2. 1. ● . 5. Mr B. Answ. “ Rev. 3. 1● Book of ordination , Art. 6. Mr B. Answ. † Ephe. 2. 19. & 4. 16 * Epist. 3. 10. Mr B. Answ. pag. 261. pag. 180. * Math. 18 ●● . 20. 1 Cor. ● 2. and ● . 4. 5 6. 12. 13. † Ephe. 4. 4. 5. see pag. 267 pag. 126. 1 Cor. 5. I. II. † Rom. 1. 16. * 1 Cor. 5. 4 ▪ 5. “ Act. 20. 28. 1 Pet. 5. 1. 2. ● Tim. 5. 17 III. † ● Cor. 5. 6. “ Math. 18. 1. 15. 17 * Rev. 18. 2 IIII. † pag. 15. 16. “ 1 Cor. 1● 19. † Math. ● . 16. 1 Pet. 2 12. and 3. 1 Rom. 2. 24. V. Mr B. Answ. “ pag. 132. 133. * pag. 290. † 2 Book p. ●90 . 296. “ Rev. 1● 11. I. II. III. pag. 144. † Mr Col 〈…〉 . pag. 244. pag. 131. pag. 141. Mr B. I. Answ. “ 2 Thes. 2. 3. 4. † 1 Ioh. 2. 18. & 4 3. * 3 Ioh. 9. 10. 1 Cor. ● . 4. II. Mr B. Answ. III. Mr B. Answ. pag. 313. IIII. Mr B. † Exod. 18. 21. † pag. 137. 138. pag. 94. † Mat. 28. 19. 20. A●t 5. 42. & 6. 4. Rō . 1. 15. 16. 1 Cor. 1. 17. * 1 Tim. 5. 17. † 1 Tim. ● 2. “ Act. 1. ●● 21. ‘† Act. 6. 2. 3. * Act. 14 : 23. ‘† former book . † pag. 325. † pag. 138. * pag. 97. “ pag. 295. Luk. 7. 24. † Separat . schism . pag. 138. Mr B. Answ. * Act. 13 1 2. & 1. 24. 26. * Act. 9. 1 Cor. 9. 1. 2. 6. † 1 Cor. 8. ● * 1 Cor. 14 3. “ pag. 145. pag. 197. † Mar. 6. 3. * Act. 18. 3. " Math. 4. 18. 21. Mr B. Answ. † Col. 2. 23. “ Heb. 5. 4. 5. Mr B. * Mat. 15. 6. Hebr. 9. 15. 16. 17. Answ : † Eph. 2. 20 21. “ Math. 28. 20. ‘* Act 20. 17. 20. 26. 27. “ 1. Cor. 14 40. † v. 37. 38. pag. 296. * Rev. 16. 13. 14. “ Isa. 30. 1. * 1 Cor. 2. 14. * Hos. 4. ● . 2. Book 110 114. † Heb. 3 3. Act. & 1. 6. Act. 10. 14 15 ▪ 3● . 35. with Ch. 11 2. 3. 4. 5. & ● . Mr B. pag. 319. Answ. † Gal. 5. ● . * Deu. 4. ● . Rev. 22. 18 ▪ 19. I. II. Act. 20. 2● 29. Iob. 10. 9. 12. 13. Act. 6. 1 — 5. 2 Cor. 1. 24 III. IIII. † Rom. 15. 31. 2 Cor. 4. 5. & 1. Cor. 9. 14. “ 1 Tim. 5. 18. Mr. B. Answ. “ Mr Ioh. Answ. to Mr Iacob . pag. 46. 47. 48. &c. 157 ▪ 158. &c. † 1 Cor. 3. 11 * Mat. 13. 11. 19. 24. 31. 33. & 21. 5. 43. Act. 1 3. † 1 Tim. 3. 14. * Ch. 23. 22. ver . 11 v. 22. v. 14. 17. I. II. III. * Book of Cōmon pr. Num. 16. Ier. 23. 11. * 1. Tim. 3. 2. † Tit. 1. ● Mr B. Answ. Pag. 298. * Lev. 4. 22 23 27. 28. & 19. 17. mat . 18. 15. Ioh. 4. 39. Act. 8. 4. with 11. 1● 20. 21. 1. Cor 14. 24. 25. Iam. ● . 19. 20. Mr B. Answ. Mr B. 2. book p. 308 Answ. † Phil. 1. 15 16. ver . 18. * Gen. 37. 4 8. 11. 28. Act. 7. 9. ‘* Gen. 45. 1. 7. 8. Psal. 10● . 17. * pag. 321. 1. Book . p. 120. 2. Book . p. 321. “ 1 Cor. 1. 1 † Ch. 6. 9. 1● . 11. † 1 Cor. 4. 15. & 3. 6. ● . Cor. 10. 16. Rom. 15. 20 “ Act. 20. 17. 28. pag. 308. Mr B. * Eph. 2. 3. “ Psal. 51. 5 * 1 Cor. 7. 14. * Eph. 6. 4. “ Gal. 6. 1. † Rom. 1. 16 * ●Psal . 19. 7. *‘ Mat. 13. 19. 23. “ pag. 130. Mr B. Answ. Mr B. Answ. ● . ● . 11. Mr B. Answ. † Ioh. 21. 15 16. 17. Mr B. Answ. Mr B. Answ. pag. 302. I. * Ioh. 21. 15. 16. 17. Act 2● . 1● . 25. 29. II III. 〈◊〉 . ●92 . IIII. * Psal. 2. ● . & 4. 2. 3. †‘ Gen. 32. 9. “ Act. 20. 27. 28. 29. Mr B. pag. 142. 1. book . Answ. † pag. 311. Mr B. I. Answ. “ Act. 20. 28. 1 Pet. 5. 1. 2. “ Dan. 2. 30. 32. 33. III. * Esa. 66. 21. Ier. 33. 18 , 21. † Col 2. 11. 12. 2 Chro. 30. 11. 18. 2● . * Rom. 4. 11. Ezech. 44. 7. Act. 21. 18. † Exod. 12. 48. 2 King. 23. 9. Ezech. 44. 10. 11. 12. 13. IIII. † Act. 8. 12. 38. ch . 9 18. & 10. 47 48. & 16. 15. 33. † 1 Tim. 3. 1 “ Act. 14. 23. & 15. 2. 4. 22. & 20 17. 28. 1. Cor. 12. 28. Phil. 1. 1. T●● . 1 5. 1. Pet. 5. 1. 2 “ Col. 4. 12. * Act. 20. 17. 28. † pag. ●● . * pag. 18● . * First book pag. 144. Mr B. Answ. Mr B. Answ. † ● Cor. ●● . 28. * Rev 1. 2. Math. 5. 14 15. Mr B. Answ. “ Ioh. 10. 3 pag. 302. Mr B. Answ. † pag. 125. 126. &c. I. * Rom. 3. 2. & 9. 4. E. phe . 2. 12. 1 Cor. 3. 22 23. II. III. Rom. 15. 31. 1 Cor. 4. 1. 2 Cor. 4. 5. Col. 1. 24. 25. Mr B. 2. book . 186 ● Book . 144 Answ. † Col. 2. 5. p. 184. 185. Mr B. Answ. “ Gen. 4. 7. † Exo. 12. 2 Ch. 19. 22. ‘* Ch. 24. 5 * Num. 3. 12. 13. & 8 15. 16. &c. With Deu. 33. 10. † Gen. 4. 8. 12. 14. 16. “ Ch. 11. 31 with ▪ Iosh. 24. 2. 15. ‘؛‘ Ch. 21. 9. 14. * Ch. 25. 31 32. 33. 34. Heb. 12. 16 Gen. 27. 27 † 1 Sam. 2. 30. 31. ver . 35. * Ezec. 44. 10. 13. †‘ Hos. 4. 6 7. † Math. 3. 9. * 2 Thes. 2. 3. 4. vers . 8. “ Rev : 11. 3. 7. Pag : 186. 187. 188 &c. 2. ●ok op●g 185. 186. Pag : 144. “ ● Cor : 3 ▪ 6. Tit : 1. 5. † ● Cor : ● . 28. Act : 15 36. 1 Cor. 4. 17. * Act. 14. 23. Tit. 1. 5 Math. 28. 20. * Rev. 14. ● . * Rom : 16 17. Gal : 1. ● . 1 Tim : 6. 3. 4. 5. Tit : 3. 10 11. † 1 Tim : 5. 18. 2 Ioh : 10. 11. Rev 1● . 4. 1 Cor. 1. 2. & ● . 1● . 13 pag : 145 “ Num : 16. 9 & 1● . 7. 2 Chr : 35. ● . Ezech : 44. 11. Math. ●0 . 2● . 26. 27. 2 Cor : 4. 5. Rom : 15. 3● . Bishop Barl. ser : b 〈…〉 e the King. † Math. 28. 20 " A●t . 6. 4. 1. Cor. 1 17. T it 1. 5. * pag. 137. ●●●st book . 2. book p. 311. * Act. 1. 15. 16. 21. 22. 26. “ Ch. 6. 2. 3. 5. 6. * Act. 13 ▪ 2. & 14. 23. * Act. 13. 1. 2. 3. 1 Tim. 4. 14 & 2. 1. 6. Act. 14 23. The Churches in Scotland . * pag. 125. 126. — 130. 131. † pag. 142. 143. 144. † pag. 149. 150. 151. † Exod : 29. 1. 2. 3 & . * Act : 6. 6 & 14. 23. “ Heb : 5. 4 † Gen : 27. ●7 . * : ch : 48 17. 18. 19 20. † Numb . 8. 6. 9. 10. &c 20. 21. † 1 Sam : 6. 20. 21. “ Gal : 1. 1. 2 8. 9 * Col : 4. 17. † Rev. 1. 2. “ Ch. 3. 20 * 1 Pet. 2. 5 † Numb . 5 9. 10. 11. — 16. 20. * Act. 1. 15 &c. † Ch. 6. 2. 3. 5. Ch : 14. 23. * Rom : 15. 3. “ 1 Cor : 5. 3. first book 145. 2. book 296 † 2 Cor. 11. 28. Act. 2. 1. 3. 4. &c. Mat. 28. 1 Cor. 14. 11. * Gal. 1. 8. “ Symm●stam . I. II. III. † Act : 1. “ ch : 6. * ch : 14. † first book Pag : 92. M : B. Answ : M : B. Answ. “ Luk 4 ▪ 41 & 8. 28 † Eph : 5. 26. * Iude , 20. † Rom. ● . 26 “ Math. 6. 9. * Collos. 2. 18 ▪ 23. Mr Broughtō ▪ Deut. 12. 1 Chro. 22. † pag. 32● . M B : Answ : “ v : 4. * ● : 14. † 1 Cor : 12 9. Pag : 327. Pag : 328 329 Pag : 328 † The hūble suit of a sinner . * Lamentation . “ Complaynt of a sinner . † 12 Artscles of fayth * Thanksgiving after the Lords supper . I. Answ : “ Ioh. 3. 19 II. III. Answ : Act : 19. 4. IIII. Answ : V. Answ : VI. Answ : VII . Answ : 8. & 9. Answ : 1 Tim : 5. 22. Rev : 18. 4. Chap : 14. 9 Separists schism . Pag 153 154. Math. 9. 11. & 17. 10. * v. 13. † ver . 15. “ v : 8. 10. † 15 4. * Ma●he 12. 31. “ 1 Cor. 5. 11. 12. * Revelat. 18. 2. 4 ▪ Mr B. † pag. 114. Answ. Act : 2. 4● . 47. 1 Cor : 1. 2. Phil : 1. 1. * Deut : 19 ●● . Math : 18. 16. † Psal : 125. 5. Math : 18. 15. 16. 17. 1 Cor : 5. 11. 12. X. M B : Answ : “ Pag : 131 2 Tim : 3. 16. 17 XI . Apology . Posit . 7. M B : Answ : * Deut : 1● 1. 2. 3. 4. † Gen : 14. 1● . 20. “ Psal : 110 4. Heb : 7. 17. & . ● . & . 9. * 1 Cor : 9. 14. XII . M. B. Answ : * 2 Thes : 2 3. 4. “ chap : 9. 20. † chap : 13. 15. 16. * U : 6. 24. v : 27. 28. 29. 32. 33. Psal : 106. 35. 36. 37. 38. † 1 king . 17 30. 31. 32. Bucer . Uirell . “ Deut. 12 1. 2. 3. 2 King. 10. 25. 26. 27. 28. & 18. 1. 3 4. Service book . Homilies Tome . 2. Page . 157. † 2 Cor : 6 1● . * 1 Ioh : ● . 21. “ Iude 23. † Rev : 14. ● . ch : 18. 4. ‘† ch : 11. 8. The Ministers Positions Examined . Minist : I. Answ : Pag : 180. II. III IIII Math. 13. 19. Ioh. 10. 3. 4. 5. Act. 2. 41. 42. & 8. 36. 37 & 10. 35. & 11. 20. 21. 23. 24. 26. Col. 2. 5 * Ioh. 3. 8. Minist : Anno Domini 1562. Answ : “ Pag : 261 262. 263. &c : & 270 271. 272. 273. I. * Pag : 173 174. † Math. 15. 6. pag. 174. “ Mat. 28. 19 20. 21. † Psal. 119. 105. ver . 33. 34. ver . 6. * Iā : 4. 17. “ Luk. 12. 47. † Heb. 6. 1. II. III. pag. 166. Heb. 6. 1. 2. IIII. “ Eph : 1. 1. Pag : 167. 168. Minist : Answ : † Ioh : 4. 23 Rom : 15 18. & 16. 19. Minist : Pag : 170. 171. Answ : * Eph : 5. 25. 2● . “ Rō : 8. 9. * Gal : 5. 17 † 1 Cor : 12 12. Minist : Answ : “ Math : 5. 19. Minist . Answ : * Pag : 40. 41. 42. 46. 47. Minist . Answ. II. Minist : Answ : III. Minist : Answ : IIII. Minist : Answ : V. Minist : Answ : Ioh : 1. 6. 7. 15 ▪ 23. VI. Minist . Answ. “ ver . 28. VII . Minist . Answ. VIII . Minist . Answ. Act. 10. 14 15. 34. 35. with 11. 2. 3. 4. 5. Answ : Minist : Answ : † 1 Sam : 16. 7. Act : 15. 7. 8. * Pag : 16● “ Pag : 269. 270. 271. 272. 273. 301. 305. 306. 307. 308. 309-310 . Minist . Answ : † Rom. 15. 8 * Mark. 16. 20. Pag. 118. 1 Cor. 3. 9. Math. 15. 19. Math. ●8 . 19. 20. “ ch . ● . ●0 . † Act : 2. 41. * v : 47. “ 1 Cor : 1. 2 † 1 The : 1. 1 & 2. 1. 1. * Math : 22 15. “ Heb : ●4 . 12 see pag : 300 Minist : Answ : Minist : Answ : * Page 276. 277. 278. 279. &c : to 304 2 Chr : 17. 7 See pag 295. 296. 297. 298. Minist : Answ : see pag : 302 303. 304. † 1 Cor. 2. 14. “ Ioh. 3. 20 Minist . Answ. I. II. Heb. 7. 17. III. pag. 148. I. * 2 Cor. 14. 15. † Ch. 5. 13. II. “ Ephe. 5. 19. Col. 3. 16. III. Minist : pag. 192. 593. Answ : * 2 Sam. 15 31. v : 6. ver : 6. Gen. 9. 25. 2 Sam. 16. 5. Numb . 6. 23. Mat. 6. 9. Luk. 11. 2. * Iude , 20. Rom. 8. 26. 27. I. “ Ex : 4. 22. 23. † Gen : 24. 12. with 42. &c II. III. * Isa : 66. 21. Gal : 6. 16. IIII. V. VI. * v. 17. Mat. ● . v. 6. VII . 2 Tim. 4. ● . † 1 Cor. 11. 23. Math. 27. 26. Mark. 14. 22. Luk 23. 19. Luke 22. 19. 1 Cor : 11. 24. † Ezech : 43. ● . I. II. Isa : 56. 7. Math : 21. ●3 . Act. 6. 4 III. Dan : 2. IIII. Ezech : 4. 16. * Mal : 1. 14.