A true account of a conference held about religion at London, Septemb. 29, 1687 between A. Pulton, Jesuit, and Tho. Tenison, D.D. as also of that which led to it, and followed after it / by Tho. Tenison. Tenison, Thomas, 1636-1715. 1687 Approx. 149 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 45 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. Text Creation Partnership, Ann Arbor, MI ; Oxford (UK) : 2004-03 (EEBO-TCP Phase 1). A64381 Wing T723 ESTC R18602 11939659 ocm 11939659 51245 This keyboarded and encoded edition of the work described above is co-owned by the institutions providing financial support to the Early English Books Online Text Creation Partnership. This Phase I text is available for reuse, according to the terms of Creative Commons 0 1.0 Universal . The text can be copied, modified, distributed and performed, even for commercial purposes, all without asking permission. Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A64381) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 51245) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1641-1700 ; 517:7) A true account of a conference held about religion at London, Septemb. 29, 1687 between A. Pulton, Jesuit, and Tho. Tenison, D.D. as also of that which led to it, and followed after it / by Tho. Tenison. Tenison, Thomas, 1636-1715. [7], 83 p. Printed for Ric. Chiswell ..., London : 1687. Broadside. Errata and Advertisement: prelim. p. [7]. Reproduction of original in Union Theological Seminary Library, New York. Created by converting TCP files to TEI P5 using tcp2tei.xsl, TEI @ Oxford. Re-processed by University of Nebraska-Lincoln and Northwestern, with changes to facilitate morpho-syntactic tagging. Gap elements of known extent have been transformed into placeholder characters or elements to simplify the filling in of gaps by user contributors. 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Copies of the texts have been issued variously as SGML (TCP schema; ASCII text with mnemonic sdata character entities); displayable XML (TCP schema; characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or text strings within braces); or lossless XML (TEI P5, characters represented either as UTF-8 Unicode or TEI g elements). Keying and markup guidelines are available at the Text Creation Partnership web site . eng Tenison, Thomas, 1636-1715. Pulton, A. -- (Andrew), 1654-1710. Broadsides -- England -- London -- 17th century 2003-05 TCP Assigned for keying and markup 2003-05 Apex CoVantage Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2003-10 Judith Siefring Sampled and proofread 2003-10 Judith Siefring Text and markup reviewed and edited 2003-12 pfs Batch review (QC) and XML conversion IMPRIMATUR , [ A True Account of a Conference held about Religion , at London , Sept. 29. 1687. between A. Pulton Jesuit , and Tho. Tenison , D. D. &c. ] Oct. 17. 1687. Hen. Maurice R mo . in Christo P. D. Wilhelmo Archiep , Cant. a Sacris . A TRUE ACCOUNT OF A CONFERENCE Held about RELIGION AT LONDON , Septemb. 29. 1687. Between A. PULTON , Jesuit , AND THO. TENISON , D. D. As also of that which led to it , and followed after it . By THO. TENISON , D. D. LONDON : Printed for Ric. Chiswell , at the Rose and Crown in St. Paul's Church-Yard . M DC LXXXVII . To the Parishioners of St. Martins in the Fields , and St. James Westminster . My most Worthy Friends , I Have had such Experience both of your Judgment and Candor , that notwithstanding the many false Reports and Papers industrioufly scattered by some of the less sincere and less generous Romanists , I have trusted my Reputation with you . I was well assured that you would not pass any Censure till you had well understood the Case ; and that Truth , tho it moved slowly , would overtake that Falshood which made such haste to be before It. It is certain that the Discourse it self does not deserve the name of a Conference ; for the Crowd and the Noise gave such an interruption , that the closeness of Discourse which was intended , could never take place : But there are other Reasons which move me to publish that which has passed , and without the doing of it , some unworthy ends would have been further served upon the credulous . I am not conscious to my self of any thing in which I have not been just or fair . What I said either with less Strength , or more warmth than I ought to have done , I have set down , and laid it before your Charity . It may be I have a motive to severe language towards that sort of men , which few have besides me . My Father being turned out of his Living of Mondesley in Norfolk , as an Adherer to King Charles the Martyr ; a Person , one of whose names was Gubbard , recommending himself to the Committee at Norwich as a man who had a zeal for the same Cause in which they were engaged , took Possession of the Living , and received all Profits , but restored nothing ; and with Mo●desty he held the Living of Knapton also . After a few years he began to throw off part of his Disguise , and he Preach'd-up Purgatory , and other such points in so open a manner , that the same Committee who had put him in , turn'd him out again ; and in a little time he ( as it were ) vanish'd away . Thìs instance of such gross Hypocrisie and Injustice made impression upon me when I was young , and so raised my Suspicion and Indignation , that where I have met with any thing of a like nature , it has been some difficulty to met to temper my self . But nothing ( I hope ) shall ever so transport me , as to prevent the doing of my duty among you and my Willingness to spend and be spent for a Pious , Steady , Generous and Affectionate People , who have passed as high Obligations as man can have to man , upon , My most Worthy Friends , Your most Thankful and Faithful Pastor and Servant , THO. TENISON . THE CONTENTS . 1 AN Account of the Conference , &c. written by D. T. Page 1 2 A Pursuit of that which was said in the Conference about Citations . 27 3 An Account of D. T 's and Dr. Clagets going to the Savoy to Mr. Pulton Jesuit . 35 4 Mr. Pultons First Letter to D. T. 40 5 D. T 's Answer . 41 6 Mr. P's Second Letter . 42 7 Dr. T 's Answer . 42 8 Mr. P's Third Letter , with D. T 's Note at the end of it . 43 9 D. T 's Third Letter to Mr. P. 45 10 Mr. P's Fourth Letter . 48 11 D. T 's Answer . 50 12 Mr. Pultons Paper sent in his First Letter . 52 13 D. T 's Notes upon this Paper . 55 14 The Account of the Conference as first written and spread by Mr. P. with Dr. Tenison's Notes upon it . 59 15 A Letter framed by the Romish Managers , and conveyed to J. S. to the end he might transcribe it as his own , and send it to his Father ; with D. T 's cursory Notes . 71 16 A further Account of Mr. Pultons Second Narrative , in some few Animadversions . 78 17 In that further Account , part of a Letter from the Reverend Dr. Horneck . 79 ERRATA . PAg. 8. l. 22. f. man r. Monk. p. 10. f. had r. had his ? p. 11. l. 12. blot out the Comma after nigh . p. 33. l. 4. f. John of Constantinople r. John of Hierusalem . p. 33. l. 18. after S. Justin , &c. add on the Marg. the place is cited at length in p. 19. Marg. 1. 6. for Quis r. Quas . p. 35 , &c. f. Celgat and Clegat r. Claget . p. 38. l. 3. f. Eccelesiasticum r. Ecclesiasticum . p. 77. Marg. f. contemnaverit r. commutaverit . p. 51. l. 25. for herately r. heartily . Note , That the false spelling and English in Mr. P's Letters , p. 40. &c. was not altered , because it was in Mr. Pulton's Original . Note also , that the Letter framed for the Boy in p. 71. was written in two different hands , and that the latter part of it being compar'd with Mr. P's other Letters , appears to have been written in his hand . ADVERTISEMENT . The Vindication of A. D. C. Schoolmaster in L. A. from the Aspersions of A. Pulton Jesuit , and Schoolmaster in the Savoy , will be speedily Published by the said A. D. C. A True ACCOUNT Of what Passed at the CONFERENCE , &c. As also of that which led to it , and which followed it . MR. U. of L. A. having occasion to come to D. T. at his House in St. Martins Church-yard , about business in the way of his Trade , he brought his Apprentice J. S. along with him ; and intimation having been given the day before by Mr. U. to D. T. that the said Apprentice was departing from the Church of England , having been at Mass nigh two Months before ; D. T. desired Mr. U. and his Apprentice to come into his Closet ; and there he ask'd the Boy what Reasons could induce him to leave so good a Church ? For a while he could scarce be prevailed with to answer a word ; but at last after much importunity , he said a few things , and told them that Mr. Pulton the Jesuit was the person in whose Lodgings he had been , and that he had perswaded him by his Arguments . D. T. ask'd him , what Arguments those were ? He answered , he had showed him in Luthers works that Luther held sometimes Three , and sometimes Seven Sacraments ; and added , that Luther was disswaded from going to Mass by the Devil ; and that ever since the pretended Reform'd had proceeded upon the word of the Devil . D. T. showed him how frivolous that Story and Argument was , and ask'd the Boy what kind of Book it was which was show'd him for Luther's works . He pointed to a Book in the Closet in thin Quarto . D. T. after telling him , that Luther's works could not be contained in so small a compass , and that he believed Mr. P. would not justifie this way of reasoning before him ; and discoursing to the Boy out of a Place or two in the Scriptures , and saying what he then thought proper , dismiss'd him , and advised his Master to send him into the Country to his Father , who was reported to be a man of condition , and judicious ; for he had observed a very odd temper in the Boy , and a strange figure in his Countenance , and had been told before by Mr. U. That since his having been tampered with and seduced , his very countenance was altered , he seemed often as if he were mop'd ; he was grown so g●●at a Lyar , that they knew not how to believe or employ him ; and so troublesom to the other servants by saying they were Damn'd , and talking to them about Popery , that he had made all the Family uneasie . That very day the boy had been with D. T. he had the confidence to turn that about Luther and the Devil which was said by the Jesuit , upon the said D. and to ascribe it to him , saying , that the D. had told him Luther left Mass at the instance of the Devil , so that from thenceforth the Reformation proceeded upon the word of the Devil . It was a little after Whitsontide last , when this Fit began to take the Boy , but it was not so observably violent till of late ; it seems Mrs. U. had written to his Father before D. T. had seen J. S. His Master after having been with D. T. carried the Boy to Dr. Horneck , still hoping to work good upon him ; but his perverseness was so apparent to D. H. notwithstanding all the things of moment he said , that he perceived him gone past present Cure. Great boast was made in the Neighbourhood about Mr. P. ; and odds were offered that D. T. would not meet him ; though there was little reason for that boasting ; few days having passed since D. T. and M. L. in vain expected the coming of two Priests at a Place and Time mutually appointed . Mr. U. said he was very certain the Dr. would come , and the Party of Mr. P. having named a Place and Hour , Mr. U. came to D. T. to give him notice of what was done . D. T. assured him he would meet , tho 't was inconvenient , a Friend from beyond Sea being just come to him , and it being to no purpose as to the Boy ; and it serving cunning people with a colour for saying that upon what he heard , He was converted . Mr. U. granted all this ; but added , that if Mr. P. were not met , it would be said it was because none dare meet him ; and upon that motive , how inconsiderable soever to men of sound sense , the matter turn'd , and 't was agreed on all sides that there should be little Company , and no Noise ; and on one side Mr. P. his Friend , and the Boy ; and on the other D. T. Mr. U. and his Wife . This being agreed , D. T. when the hour came , broke away abruptly from two Eminent Divines , D. S. and W. W. without so much as letting them know about what business he was going , and he went to the place alone , without either Friend or Servant . He had not been there many Minutes , before Mr. P. came in with nine or ten after him , several of his Boys pressing at the door , but being hindred from entring ; D. T. does not say that Mr. P. brought them all . How many Priests there were among these who came first , D. T. could not tell , but he espied in the room , which was of a sudden crowded with people , Mr. Meredith , whom he look'd upon as next to a Priest ; a Priest in a yellow Peruke , one who owned , that if he was not in Orders , he hop'd to be so ; one from the Lady S. I's of L. A. whom he supposeth to be a Priest , and one in a plain Band , who ( as was said ) came with him . It was not so very easie in the Crowd to take full notice of these ; and how many there were more of such men , he cannot tell ; nor does he say that they were all of Mr. P's bringing . D. T. perceiving such a Company , said to Mr. P. that this way seem'd not fair , he himself having come without either Friend or Servant , that he might not transgress the Agreement for the Privacy of the Conference . The Master of the House excused himself , saying , That he had denied some very good Friends who desired to be there , that he might keep to what was agreed . Then Mr. P. was content to dismiss all besides a witness for himself ; and Mr. Meredith was propos'd . Against Mr. Meredith D. T. made three Objections . First , that he having received from C. O. a Copy of a Conference betwixt the D. of S. P. and Mr. G. given him by Mr. Meredith , and having show'd it to the said D. of S. P. the D. had assured him the said D. T. That it was not a true Copy , and that a material thing about the present Greek Church was left out : Mr. M. referred to what was printed upon that occasion . The Second Objection made by D. T. was , that Mr. M. had in a Coffee house pitied the slate of St. Martins as being a very great Parish under one Man ; and capable of maintaining Thirty Fryars . D. T. said further , That such an intermedler was not a proper Witness . And afterwards in another Room , That he should not count his Fryars before they were hatch'd . Mr. M. replied calmly , That he had said this with relation to the greatness of the Parishes in the Suburbs , and not with particular regard to D. T. or St. Martins ; and that tho he nam'd the Parish , he was a stranger to D. T. and had not reflected upon him . The Third Objection was taken from Mr. M's having forsaken the Church of England , such being more partial , and possessed with a spirit of fiercer bigottry than those who were Romanists from the beginning . Mr. M. then answered , He was the better judg , because he had known both Churches . D. T. answered then , that he went away young from our Church , from which no man , who well understands it , could depart upon true Principles . Mr. M. and D. T. revived this discourse in another Room afterwards , and D. T. saying Mr. M. was turn'd in Spain , where the people had no Bibles . Mr. M. replied , That they carried over with them a very good Library of Books . After these Exceptions taken at Mr. M as a Witness , D. T. perceiving it next to impossible to clear the Room , and not being willing to give occasion to the insulting of any weak people by going away , call'd Mr. Meredith to him , and placed himself betwixt Mr. P. and Mr. Meredith . Then Mr. P. spake first about Pen and Ink , and an Amanuensis ; but D. T. having brought no person with him , and the Crowd pressing , Mr. P. began a Verbal Conference , by saying the Protestants had no Bible , and desiring D. T. to prove they had one , and asking him how and whence they had it , and what was their Rule of Faith. And his first onset was very vigorous . D. T. answered at first to this purpose , That Mr. P. might send for that Book which he owned to be his Bible , and out of that he would dispute with him ; or if that were too great a trouble , he would borrow an English Bible in the house ( which was afterwards fetch'd ) and discourse out of that , and endeavour to vindicate the Translation , where it should be by Mr. P. excepted against . This Method Mr. P. would not allow , but repeated his discourse about our not having a Bible , and our not being able , if we had one , to prove we had one ; and ask'd again about the Rule of our Faith. D. T. before he answered to this , applied himself to Mr. M. ( who seem'd to be the calmer person , and of a temper inclining to Piety ) and put him in mind , that such discourses as these , and some others , lately used by the Romanists about the Trinity and Transubstantiation , would rather make the people Atheists or Unbelievers , than Converts ; and that the indifferent were ready to say , Content : We cannot believe Transubstantiation , and we will have no Trinity ; we cannot have the Bible unless we take it upon Roman Authority , and none we will have . Mr. M. said , That would not be the consequence , but gave no reason why he said so . Then D. T. turned to Mr. P. and told him that he began at a point of which the Boy had not said a tittle to him in the Closet , or to his Master ; the first and chief thing said by him being that about Luther's Works , and Sacraments , and his Colloquy with the Devil . Mr. P. at first denied that he had shown such a Book to the Boy , and the Boy began at first to shuffle about the Story , but afterwards own'd it , his Master attesting it , and upbraiding him with lying in that and other things . Mr. P. then salv'd the matter , by saying he did not show him the Book in Publick . D. T. then replied , Is not a thing shown because it is not shown in a Market ? this is the fruit of the ill art of Equivocation . Mr. P. proceeded to talk about Luther and the Devil , and his leaving Mass at the Devils instance : this discourse of Mr. P's had very good effect upon the other servants in the house , as they confessed to their Mistress , they now perceiving that to be the Jesuits talk , which the Boy had fathered upon the Doctor . To Mr. P's discourse about Luther , D. T. answered on this manner ; That our Church depended not upon Luther , but Christ : That Luther ( some grains of allowance being given to him , as we ought to every man ) was an excellent instrument of God's : That he ought to have read ( if he had not done so ) the Book lately published at Oxford , Entituled , The Spirit of Martin Luther : That if Luther had said any where there were Three Sacraments , he had said no more than Paschasius Radbertus who was the Inventer of Transubstant●ation a . That admitting the Story , Luther after the Monkish way , had put his Spiritual Conflict into the form of a Colloquy ; and that he might well suspect a device in the Devil when he disswaded him from the Mass ; for the Devil might think the Piety of Luther would be apt to move him for that reason to go the rather to Mass , because the Devil had forbidden him . D. T. added , that one of the first disswasives from the Mass which made impression upon Luther , was this . He had been at Rome , and said Mass there , and heard it said , and he took notice of the profaneness of the Mass-Priests ; and he over-heard the very Courtizans jeeringly saying , that some who Consecrated , had used these Words , Bread thou art , Bread thou shalt be : Wine thou art , Wine thou shalt be . Mr. P. asked D. T. where he had this Story ? D. T. answered , where he might have it , in Luthers Life a . D. T. would have gone on and given Mr. P. a Story out of their second Synod of Nice , for his story about Luther's Colloquy with the Devil ; but Mr. P. would not accept of an old Tale for a new one ; and tho D. T. began his Story at the request of the people , five or six times , Mr. P. would not suffer him to proceed , out-noising him in such manner , that D. T. ask'd him if he had the Art of curing the deaf . The Story , which was afterwards told to the people in the back room , was this : Abbot Theodore reported before the Fathers of that Council which decreed the Worship of Images , how the Devil appeared to an Old Man , who asked him why he had troubled him so long with temptations to uncleanness ; the Devil swore him to secresie , and then said , Adore this Image no more , I will give you no further trouble [ the Image was that of the Blessed Virgin with the Holy Jesus in her Arms ] . The old man revealed this to Abbot Theodore , who said he should not have sworn to the Devil ; yet notwithstanding 't was better for him not to dismiss his Courtezan , than to forbear to worship Christ and his Mother in an Image . The Abbot continued and comforted the old man , and sent him away ; the Devil appeared again , and upbraided him with perjury ; the old man answered , What I have sworn , I have sworn , &c. The Good Fathers excused the breach of his Oath , and went on to applaud the practice of Image-worship . Mr. P. not suffering D. T. scarce so much as to begin this story , joined with Mr. Meredith in asking what was the Rule of Fairh , and where we had our Bible ? And as to the latter , Mr. P. ask'd with great quickness , who gave us the Copies , how , where , when and the like ? Insomuch that D. T. told him he was doing the office of a Catechist , rather than a Disputer . However D. T. answered thus , First , The Rule of Faith is the Holy Bible ; the sum of it in necessary Doctrines , is the Apostolical Creed : Mr. P. said we had other Negative Articles , No Purgatory , &c. D. T. replied , they were Guards of our Creed , but not properly Articles ; and that as Protestations against Them , they were not very Ancient , because their Errors were not all from the beginning ; and that we could not pull up the weeds before they were grown up . Secondly , That if they had any good proof of the Bible , we had it too ; and that the first external inducement for the receiving of the Bible , as written by such and such persons , and as such a Book , was ( not so much the Authority as ) the Testimony of the Universal Church of all Ages , all agreeing in it , and amongst others the Roman , excepting the Apochryphal Books of later time raised by them into a level with the primary Canon , whilst we have the same Canon the Ancient Church owned in the Council of Laodicea . D. T. added , That the Protestants took in the Testimony of Heathens , as of Julian the Apostate , who , against himself , owned three of the Evangelists ; and the Jews , who had once the Oracles of God committed to them , and from whom the first Christians received the Canon of the old Testament . Mr. M. catch'd at the words , and said , D. T. builds his Faith on Jews : D. T. answered , That that was not fair , and that he should take his words in their coherence , and make the best of them : He continued , and said , That by this way of Universal Consent , we were by way of external inducement as sure of this Books being the Bible , as of Cicero's Offices being his Book . Mr. M. said we were not infallibly sure of that : D. T. added , That the Consent of the World removed all doubt ; and that for the Holy Bible , when men came to consider the Prophesies and their Events , the Characters of Christ , the History of Christ , and things in those Books most worthy of God , and use of pious means in humility of Soul , they had further assurance begotten in them . Mr. M. asked D. T. how he proved that inward sense ? D. T. said it could satisfie the persons themselves . Then Mr. P. began again to ask Questions about the Bible ; How , from what Churches , Copies , &c. we had received it ? It had been no difficult matter to have perplexed him , by asking from what Copy of the O. T. St. Peter had what Copy of the New he gave to Linus , and he to the rest ; and where and by whom Linus was ordained , and in what form , &c. but he only ask'd him upon what motive he believed Infallibly that St. Peter was ever at Rome , seeing the Scripture had not said it ? Mr. P. said all the world knew that . D. T. ask'd him whether all the world were good witnesses for this and not for the Bible ? Then Mr. P. said something of Thou art Peter , and upon Thee will I build my Church . D. T. said that he made no distinction between the masculine and feminine Gender ; and that the Text ran not upon thee Peter , or this Peter ; but upon this Rock 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the Feminine , tho admitting that our Saviour did build upon him ( for by him he opened the Kingdom of the Gospel to the Jews at Jerusalem , and to the Gentiles at Cesarea ) , yet seeing there were Twelve Foundations , Christ promising that he should be one , did not exclude the other Eleven . Hereabouts upon Mr. P's citing this place , and that other , Hear the Church , &c. and D ▪ T. desiring to fix upon something , and opening an English Bible , and Mr : P. denying it to be the Bible , and D. T. desiring to send for a Greek Testament , one was produced by the Company , but not used , Mr. P. saying he would allow the Translation of the places to be true . Mrs. R. in this talk about St. Peter , being nigh , Mr. P. said softly , 't was St. Peters Confession on which Christ built his Church . Hereabouts also Mr. P. spake about a Church at Rome , spoken of by St. Paul ; and D. T. taking up the Bible , and desiring to show how that matter stood , was not permitted after three or four offers . For Mr. P. turned all off by general discourse about the Bible and Rule of Faith , and began again to ask Questions , and to say that the Greeks of whom D. T. spake , were all Lyars , being Hereticks , and that the Catholicks ( meaning Romans ) were said by him to be a corrupt Church , and that therefore the Protestants depended upon Lyars for their Bible . Here first began a strife about the word Catholick , and of the Popes being the Catholick Bishops ; and D. T. asking Mr. P. whether the Ancient Bishops of other Sees did not stile themselves the Catholick Bishops of this and the other place , Mr. P. yielded it , and this word-bate ended . Then D. T. in Answer to his Argument said to this effect . First , That the Greeks were not all Lyars and Hereticks ; and that the Missionaries had Misrepresented them . Secondly , That when all the World , of all Ages , conspired in a testimony about a book or such a City as Rome or Jerusalem , tho some might be ill men , and in some particulars Lyars , yet we could not believe them Lyars in their Universal Consent , because they could never be in a Confederacy to vend such a Lye. Thirdly , That tho we took in part the Testimony of the Roman Church , yet from her Authority the S. S. could not be prov'd , because she went about to prove her Being and Authority out of the Scriptures , and therefore could not do it till it was first proved that the Scriptures were the Word of God , and the places cited were infallibly proved to carry that sense which the Romanists put upon them . D. T. remembers not that any thing was said to the two last , but upon the first Mr. P. charged him with joining with the Greeks in the Herefie of the Holy Ghost proceeding from the Father by the Son : Mr. D. A. C. ( not known before to D. T. ) interposed , and said , That that was a dispute about Phrases , and that they were agreed in sense : And when Mr. P. wondred at that saying , and had said there would in a fortnights time come forth a Book which should sufficiently show what the Greek Church was , D. T. referred him to Father Simons Book , called [ Histoire Critique de la Creance , &c. des Nations , du Levant ] published three years ago ; in which that Learned Romanist show'd how the Missionaries had slandered the Greek Church , and made those Hereticks who were not so , and raised a dust about words when they agreed in meaning . Mr. P. did not own his knowledg of this Book . [ Since the Conference D. T. hath seen a Second Book upon the like Argument a ( lately published by the said Learned French man ) ; and he perceives by it , that as times Change , men can do so too ] . Here abouts D. T. offer'd to fix upon something , and to speak to the Text cited by M. P. viz. Hear the Church ; but Mr. P. did not suffer it for some time , but said , The Church was a City on a Hill , and always visible ; and ask'd , Where such a Church as ours was visible in all Ages ? And how , and where , &c. And clap'd his Hand with great force upon the Table ; and a while after said , If he could not shew the visibility of his Church , and we could that of ours , he would be hang'd . D. T. when Mr. P. beat the Table , said , smiling , Sir , I would not by any means come under your Ferula . Mr. P. replied very calmly , I use none . D. T. does think that he ought to have spared those words , as seeming to reflect upon that Profession which he very much Honours , as one of the most useful in the World : As likewise those used by him upon Mr. P's talking of being hang'd , it being somewhat severe . But in heat of talk D. T. did say ; Mr. P. you use a very scurvy word ; and you put me in mind of a saying of the late Lord Faulkland , You are apt to hang and to damn ; but if they whom you hang , were no more hang'd than they who you damn , were damn'd , few men would fear either your hanging or your damning . After this there was more talk about the visibility of the Church , and D. T. said to this purpose , The History of this matter is beyond both the Purse and the Capacity of the People . A great many Pounds and Books are required . [ A Priest or Candidate said , 'T is in less room , and was pulling out , I think , a little Book ] . It sufficeth the People that they have heard Christ's Promise , That there shall be a Society of men professing Christianity to the end of the World ; That they believe Christ will make good his word , and that they find among us such Doctrine , and Rules of Life , as are in the Bible . That the Greeks have always had Churches ; that among the Latins , we have Catalogues of Witnesses against Romish Errors ; That a True Church may ( though not as such ) have many Corruptions ; And that the present Corruptions in the Roman Church , were not formerly made Articles of Faith. That we had the True Faith , before any Mission came from Rome . That S. Gregories Faith was not that which Rome now teaches . That here the Synods of the Second of Nice and Trent could not prevail ; That a Doctrine contrary to Transubstantiation had been taught in the Saxon Church ; and that he would prove such things as these out of their own Writers . Mr. M. ask'd what Writers ? D. T. answer'd Beda , and such Historians as Hoveden , &c. D. T. said moreover to Mr. P. asking after a distinct Church before Luther , That he would shew him Christians in Bohemia , making the Bible their Rule , and protesting against the Errors of Rome : And ask'd him , If he should shew him out of Aeneas Sylvius ? Mr. P. did not desire it , nor seem to know what Book that was . Mr. M. had some while before ask'd D. T. ( who had said , That we find the Bible which we now have quoted by the Ancient Fathers ) How he came to know they were Fathers ? To which Question he thought an Answer in that Place , a condesension to an impertinence . Hereabouts ( I think ) Mr. P. introduced a short Discourse about Transubstantiation ; and when D. T. had said , as before , that that manner of the Breads becoming Christ's Body , was invented by Paschasius Radbertus , M. P. in warm manner said What talk you of Paschasius Radbertus ? It was decreed in the Great General Council of Lateran , where there were all the Patriarchs . D. T. perceiving him to mistake so much in History ; and likewise err in time nigh Four hundred years ( for Paschasius flourished , according to Bellarmin , in the year 821. and that Lateran Council was held Ann. 1215. ) He turn'd to Mr. M. and said , Why do you bring a man who has not common skill in History ? And then , turning to Mr. P. he ask'd him , Under what Pope that Council was held ? And his Memory did not serve him to tell . Then Mr. D. A. C. addressing himself to him ( having a Breviary in his Hand , in which the Trinity was pictur'd ) said , Sir , I can inform you under what Pope that Council was held ; 't was held under Innocent the Third ; Mr. P. being moved either by his Answer , or his Book , or Picture , or all ; called him Buffoon . D. T. then told Mr. P. he had transgressed against part of the Office of that day of St. Michael , in which these words of St. Jude were read , Michael the Arch-angel disputing with the Devil about the Body of Moses , would not bring against him a railing Accusation , but said , The Lord rebuke thee . And further D. T. ask'd him , If all the Patriarchs were there in person , or not ? Mr. P. replied , By their Legats . D. T. ask'd him , Whether he had seen Father Walsh's late Book , which contradicted what he said : Mr. P. answered , that Father Walsh was not his Pope . [ Some of the words of Father Walsh the Franciscan , are these , a There were not above 414 Bishops in the whole ; and none of all , other than a Member of the Latin Church ; those very Two Patriarchs ( he means those of Hierusalem and Constantinople ) being themselves Latins ; and consequently , not one of the Greek Church , or of any other part or Church of the World , among them . ] By this time , Mr. P. had produced a Breviary , a written Collection of Quotations , and Two large sheets of Quotations printed ; and would go to the Fathers . D. T. desired first to speak to his Citation , Hear the Church ; but still being denied , he was contented to hear what he would alledge out of the Fathers , with this Caution , That he would not take them either for his infallible Judges or Rule ; but that , seeing he had them on the side of his Church , he would not part with them . He began with his Breviary , and read out of it part of that which is in the Margent , construing it into English a . And the Sum of it was , That before Consecration it was Bread ; but , after it , the Flesh of Christ : And that Christ whose Word made things begin to be , which were not before , could much more bring it to pass , that they should be what they were , and yet changed into another thing [ which shews the opinion of the Author to have been that it was Bread and Christ's Body too , if from this place we may find out his mind ] And then he nam'd S. Cyril's Catechism , and then Justin Martyr , and was going on to read many more Citations out of the printed Sheets , entituled , Speculum Ecclesiasticum , but call'd ( it seems ) by their Hawkers , The Soldiers Paper : of which Title D. T. being ignorant , his Man could not till Wednesday , procure him a Copy of them . D. T. Propos'd the fixing upon something after so long and noisie a rambling ; and call'd for Pen , Ink and Paper , and said he would begin with S. Ambrose , and then go on to S. Cyril and J. Martyr in the order of Mr. P. and answering those Quotations there at that time , he would afterwards , as they agreed , go on to the rest . Mr. P. would go on , and read further : and did it so often out of those two Sheets , repeating the names , Justin Martyr , Irenaeus , &c. that D. T. provoked with what he thought an unreasonable digression , call'd the Papers his Ballads , and said he might give them for Kites to his Boys ; which words were too light , and he repents him of using them . At last D. T. took the Pen and wrote down an Assertion to this effect , That that was a spurious and late Book , and none of S. Ambrose 's , and that he would show it to be such . Then he desir'd Mr. P. to underwrite that D. T. could not do what he there undertook . M. P. refus'd , and taking a Pen began to write his name to his Quotations in the printed Sheets ; but did not write ( as I think ) all his name there . After which Mr. M. took Pen , and D. T. delivering him the Paper he had sign'd in order to a regular proceeding , he began to write the first words of these Questions , Whether God Almighty hath left us any Guide or Guides to direct us in the Interpretation of Scripture in things necessary to Salvation ? Whether he hath left every one to his own understanding in such Interpretation , without obliging him to submit his judgment to any others ? D. T. interrupted him , and said he was drawing them away from their point . And upon this occasion M. M. and D. T. talk'd a little while about a Guide in Controversie ; and D. T. did tell him in short , That a Man after using all Christian means , and the help of all Ministerial Guides possible , must at last judge for himself , and that this was not to run on his own head : as also that our People could know the Voice of our Church , it being in their own Language ; but not so readily the Voice of the Church of Rome , it being in an unknown Tongue ; for the true Interpretation of which the unlearned depended upon the particular Priest that instructed them . Then D. T. and Mr. P. came again to the Quotations : and D. T. waved for a time that out of S. Ambrose , in relation to which he us'd a word somewhat too sharp , saying Mr. P. falsified , instead of saying he had quoted a spurious Author . So they came to S. Cyril's Catechism ; to which D. T. said , He knew the place Mr. P. meant , and that it was answered nigh twelve Years ago at the end of the Conference betwixt some Gentlemen of the Church of Rome , and Dr. Stillingfleet and D. Burnet . Mr. P. said , That Conference as written by D. St. and D. B. was answered , and that he would give D. T. the Answer . Something was said to Mr. M. about that Conference , which needs not ( as I imagine ) to be here repeated . After this D. T. desir'd Mr. P. to read out of his printed Paper , the place out of Justin Martyr , which he did . The words were these : S. Justin Mart. in Apologiâ Antonio Pio Imperatori pro Christianis oblatâ . Now this Food , saith he , amongst us is called the Eucharist , which it is lawful for none to partake of , but those who believe our Doctrine to be true , &c. For we do not receive this as common Bread or common Drink , but as the Word of God , Jesus Christ our Redeemer being made Man , had both Flesh and Blood for the sake of our Salvation ; Just so are we taught , that That Food over which Thanks are given by Prayers in his own Words , and whereby our Blood and Flesh are by a change nourish'd , is the Flesh and Blood of the Incarnate Jesus ; For the Apostles in the Commentaries written by them , called the Gospels , have recorded , that Jesus so commanded them . D. T. answered , That those words prov'd the Bread to remain Bread , because it nourish'd the Body , and was call'd Bread after Consecration : and that they did not at all establish the Roman Article of Transubstantiation . Mr. P. answered , He brought it for the proof of the Real Presence . D. T. reply'd , A Lutheran held that , yet would not be of their Communion . He then asked D. T. what his opinion was of the Real Presence ? He answered , He would defend the true Sense of his Church , even in those mistaken words in the Catechism , The Body and Blood of Christ are verily and indeed taken and received by the Faithful in the Lord's Supper . [ One in the Crowd said , not very loud , Hold him to that . ] I think here was further talk about the Roman Corporeal Presence . And Mr. D. A. C. ask'd Mr. P. what kind of Philosophy that was which maintain'd that Accidents subsisted without substances : He said , 't was true Philosophy . D. T. ask'd whether it was true Philosophy to say , there was whiteness without a white thing , and breaking without a thing broken , and the body of a Man without the dimensions and figure of such a body . It was answer'd , God could do this . It was reply'd , there was no need , no promise , supposing God could do it . Mr. D. A. C. said then or afterwards in the next Room , that God could not do what was a contradiction , it being an imperfection . Mr. P. continued the discourse and said we accused them of Idolatry , whereas they worshipped not the Bread , but Christ under it . To which D. T. answered , that he also ador'd Christ when he took the Sacrament , but not that substance which they said was under the shew of Bread : and that if it proved to be Bread , it was a Creature , and the worship of it would be the worship of a Creature ; adding that Costerus the Jesuit owned , if it should prove to be Bread , the worship of it would be worse Idolatry than that of the Laplanders who worshipped a red Cloth. Mr. P. reply'd , Mr. Stillingfleet had cited that place . D. T. rejoyn'd that it was rightly cited , for he had read it in Costerus . Mr. P. was silent . Mr. P. here asserted that the Bread was annihilated ; and being shown by D. T. that his Opinion was contrary both to truth and his own Church ; he salv'd it by saying , 't was annihilated so far as it was Bread. About this time ( as I think ) Mr. Meredith removed and went to a Window , and Mr. D. A. C. had there some discourse with him . And there was other occasional talk with a Roman by M. S. about the Cup in the Sacrament , the Roman saying , 't was taken away for fear of being spilt . About this time also ( as I think ) Mr. P. was desir'd to stick to something , & particularly to the place of Scripture long ago cited by him ; If he will not hear the Church — and he was asked by D. T. where the place was ? He could not tell . At which some of the people upbraiding Mr. P. Mr. M. asked D. T. if he could tell Chapter and Verse throughout the Bible . D. T. answered he would by no means pretend to it : But if he cited a place as a proof of a Fundamental point , he would first know where it was , that by the Antecedents and Consequents he might be the better assured of the sense of it . After which D. T. turned to the place in S. Matthew the 18th . and read it out of the English Bible , and ask'd if the Translation were faulty ? Mr. P. would not say it was . Then D. T. explain'd the sense of the place as meant of Trespasses and not Articles of Faith , and said to a very honest Gentleman whom he espy'd not far from him , 't is as if it should be said to you by one to whom you owe any thing ( though pardon me , the Obligation is on the other side ) Sir I come privately to you , pray be just to me . You say you will not . Then he comes with a Friend and says , Pray do me right , and the matter shall go no farther ; you say , you will not . Then he puts you into the Ecclesiastical Court ( supposing it proper for their cognisance : ) you will not stand to their sentence . Then you are Excommunicated , and treated as such a One. What a consequence from hence is this , Therefore the Roman Church is to be heard as an infallible Guide in matters of Faith ? Mr. M. said ( being returned from the other part of the Room ) when there is a controversie about the meaning of a place of Scripture , who should be judge ? D. T. answered there was no need here , the case was plain ; especially if this Text was further compar'd with one in Deuteronomy , a and that if the Roman Church should make an Interpretation , the sense of the words of that Interpretation would as much need a Key , as the easie Text it self . D. T. added that Christ's Church was not then throughly formed , and that the Rule had some respect to the extraordinary state of those times in which it was not so proper to go to the ordinary Courts , the Judges being unbelievers . A Romanist not so well known by D. T. offered something in confutation of this ; but D. T. told him that if he would bring an Authentick interpretation out of some of his Church Books , he would hear it . But if not ( and at that he did not offer ) then he , as a Romanist , would say nothing to the purpose , but argue , as he says the Protestants do , out of their own head . At last Mr. P. and D. T. came to the Quotations again ; and then it was resolved that D. T. should write of this matter and of S. Ambrose , S. Cyril , and Justine Martyr , &c. to M. P. and receive his Answer , and reply as often as there was just occasion given . After this D. T. said to Mr. P. there was one thing remaining and fit to be said to him : he had in a printed Paper , promised not to tamper about Religion with the Protestant Boys who should come to the Savoy-School ; it had appeared that he tampered with Boys out of his care , and would do so much more with those under it : He said , it did not follow , because of his word which he would not break , and that for this Boy he had done it in order to his everlasting Salvation . D. T. answered , that being your Principle , that all out of your Communion are damned , you being a Jesuite and a Papist , must break your word in tha● Paper for the necessary good ( as you think ) of the Souls of the Boys , especially you having hope of turning Boys under your Care. Mr. M. said to D. T. This reflects upon the King. Another more aloud , this reflects upon the King , and suggests that he will break his word : and Mr. P. joyned in the Accusation ; but many of the Hearers cryed out against them , and said , it was a knavish trick . Mr. M. was going away , D. T. called to him and desired him not to run away with a false Tale. Mr. M. denied he said such words . D. T. told him he did , and that for his part he thought his Loyalty at this time to be more valuable than Mr. M's . because he as a Son of the Church of England , professed he would not rebel against the King , notwithstanding he might be of another Religion ; whereas Mr. M. being of the same Religion , could not so well separate Loyalty from Interest . D. T. being concerned at this false and unworthy way of catching men , did say to Mr. M. at the Door of the first Room , that if he had persisted in this Trick , he could not have forborn to have given him the name of Evidence Meredith . Then D. T. desired Mr. P. and Mr. M. to go from the throng into the back Room , and to talk a little where there was less heat and noise . But Company follow'd thither too , and there some things were repeated , and some new things started about a Judge in Controversie ; about the Head of the Church ; about Berengarius : but nothing was pursu'd . Mr. M. took leave , and just at the Door muttered something about Penal Laws . Mr. P. was following , and D. T. said to him , that it was always his way to pity the people of differing Assemblies , but that for such as his Order , who had taught excluding and deposing Doctrines , and brought in a foreign Jurisdiction , it seemed fit to keep up some Laws against them . Mr. P. deny'd that his Order taught any such Doctrines . Mr. D. A. C. asked him what he thought of Suarez and Mariana . M. P. asserted , that the Pope had had a right of Jurisdiction here a thousand years , and that D. T. ought not , therefore , to call it foreign . D. T. said those were dangerous words : soon after this , Mr. P. took leave , it being now late in the Evening . D. T. staid a while ; and there was brought up to him out of the Shop , the aforesaid Question of Mr. Meredith left with the Boy , and written in the same hand with the few words which Mr. Meriton had begun to write upon the back of D. T 's . Paper . It was said to the Boy , that he should have an Answer to that Paper , if he came in the Morning to D. T. 'T was not thought fit by Mr. U. and his Wife that the Boy should come , lest , having been found to be so great and malicious a Lyar , he should invent and spread some new Tale or other . But Mrs. U. came her self , and carried back a little Book , in which an Answer to that Question was contain'd . During the Conference , the Son of Mr. J. a Roman , came to a Constable , and desir'd him to go to Mr. U's . where the Father Mr. P. was in danger of being kill'd . The Constable , saw how little need there was for the Exercise of his Authority . Next Morning came to Mr. U's : the Roman , who said if he was not in Orders , he hoped to be so ; his pretended Errand was good Counsel to the Boy , in Relation to his Master and Mistress , who had complain'd that , since he had been in this new way , he had troubled the House , mis-spent his time , and become an intollerable Lyar , and he pointed the Boy to a place or two of Scripture about Obedience ; but by and by the great design of his coming appeared : for he ask'd the Boy if he was now satisfied in his Religion . Both they and the Protestants knew that he was gone before , and they had been told how much worse he was in his Morals , since he had been tamper'd with ; and the Boy had owned to D. T. in his Closet , that he had been often at Mass. And D. H. before this Conference , had concluded him gone over , and the Boy was already taught how to fence in this matter , as may appear by his Letter to his Father , September 20th . upon his hearing the Contents of the Letter , his Father had sent to Mrs. U. on September 17th , she having given notice of the strange Alteration made in his Son. There came also a Woman to Mr. U's . to be satisfi'd in these Questions : whether there had not been a Conference there ? Whether there had not been five Ministers of the Church of England there against one Jesuite , who put them all to silence ? whether Mr. U. and Mrs. U. were not stagger'd in their Religion upon this Conference ? Whether a Gentlewoman of the Church of England was not after the Conference fallen distracted ? And when she heard that there was but one Minister there , and no putting of him to silence , and no distraction , and further Confirmation of Mr. U. and Mrs. U. declared by themselves , and the rather upon their taking notice of certain Arts of Lying , not so much before observed by them ; she own'd that the aforesaid Stories were us'd by a Roman , as Arguments to turn her . I believe there might be false Stories to the prejudice of Mr. P. and his Friends ; but to the end that false Reports may not on either hand prevail , this Account is written by D. T. which Mr. P. wheresoever he thinks it is faulty , may please to correct . Tho. Tenison . A Pursuit of that which was said in the Conference about the three first Quotations , viz. out of S. Ambrose de Sacramentis , S. Cyril of Hierusalem in his Catechism , and Justin Martyr in his Apology , &c. 1. FOR the Book de Sacramentis , as not genuine , it may suffice at present to say , That though there was a Book written by S. Ambrose under that Title , this is not it , there not being found in this the Places which S. Austin cited out of that . That the style is plainly more moderen and rude than that of S. Ambrose and his Age : That the version of the places of Scripture mention'd in this Book , is not the same with that which S. Ambrose uses in his genuine Works . That this Book is taken notice of by the Writers of the 8th . and 9th . Age , the time of the introducing of the Corporeal Presence . The very eminent Cardinal Bona a whose credit is greater than that of Alexander Natalis , do's own all this , the last words excepted . Haec Ambrosius , si tamen ipse horum librorum , qui de Sacramentis inscribuntur , Auctor est . Testatur quidem Augustinus , scripsisse Ambrosium libros de Sacramentis , sive de Philosophia adverfus l'latonem , quorum meminit , lib. 2. Retract . cap. 4. & doctrina Christiana lib. 2. cap. 28. eosque pe●iit sibi mitti à S. Paulino Ep. 34. sed illi vel perierunt , vel alicubi latent ; longè diversi sunt ab his qui nunc extant , ut patet ex sententiis , quas ex illis citat idem August . lib. 2. primi operis adversus Julianum cap. 5. & tribus sequentibus . De his verò , quos hodiè habemus , fecit primò , ut dubitarem , styli diversitas ; cùm enim opera Ambrosii ante aliquot annos haud perfunctoriè percurrerem , 〈◊〉 ad hoc pervent , visus sum mihi alterius lingue hominem ab Ambrosio prorsus diversum loquentem audire . Tum animadverti loca scripturae in his citata , non esse ejus versionis , quâ in aliis libris Ambrosius uti consuevit . Quaedam etiam in his reperi , quae seculo Ambrosii minùs convenire visa sunt . Nihilominùs à Scriptoribus octavi & nani seculi laudantur saepiùs tanquam Ambrosii legitimus foetus , quorum auctoritati cedens , eos deinceps sub ejus nomine , cujus est possessio , semper cit abo . It is true he says at the end of his Discourse , that , ( notwithstanding his Reasons before alledged ) he yields to the Authority of the Writers of the 8th and 9th Age ; and that , seeing they are in possession , he will henceforth cite this Book under the name of S. Ambrose . But considering the Time and the Doctrine then preparing for the papal stamp , who wants the fagacity of understanding to what purpose this Book was forg'd , and then brought forth as out of its antient mouldiness ? And for the humility of the Cardinal's deference to such late Authority against his solid reasons and judgment , all know what that means in the Roman Communion , where Writers after knowing that they have said things against the genius of that Church , do in the end submit all at her feet . So did Des-Cartes , whose principles are utterly inconsistent with Transubstantiation . So did Molinos the Father of the numberless off-spring of the present Quietists . For this is the Conclusion of his first amply licensed , and then rigidly condemned Guida spirituale a Il tutto sottoponga , humilimente prostrato , alla Correttione della Santa Chiesa Catolica Romana After all this I do allow that Mr. P. was the less to be blamed in this Quotation , considered as a Romanist , because he cited it out of his Breviary , and believ'd as his Church believed . Of this spurious S. Ambrose , and of the doctrine of the Eucharist in the true S. Ambrose , I will say more , when more is required . I will add only , at this time , these two things . First , The Author cited out of the Breviary , suppose him S. Ambrose , is inconsistent with himself , if Transubstantiation be an Article of his Faith. For he saith in another place b non iste panis est qui vadit in Corpus , sed ille panis vitae aeternae , qui animae nostrae Substantiam fulcit . That is , it is not that Bread which goes into the Body , but the Bread of Life eternal , which sustains the substance of the Soul. Now what a Judge has Mr. P. chosen toward the deciding of a Controversie , in which he is not reconcil'd to himself ? Secondly , This Author in all probability has been further tamper'd with ; for he would scarce have said that in the Breviary , seeing he own'd the Canon of the Mass in his time to run otherwise than now it does in the Roman Missal , and to assert that the Elements were b the Figure of Christ's Body . Sècondly , For the Testimony of S. Cyril , it was not that cited thus in the Speculum . S. Cyril . Alexandrinus , &c. For Mr. P. spake of S. Cyril of Jerusalem : and tho' he did not produce the words , yet he said they were those in his fourth Mystagogical Catechism . I say now as I then did , That the place was long ago fully answered c . The place of S. Cyril is by a Romanist , M. W. thus rendered : Tho' you see it to be Bread , yet believe it is the Flesh and the Blood of the Lord Jesus . Doubt it not , since he had said , This is my Body . And for a proof instances Christ's changing Water into Wine . d The Answer is this , and it is a true one ; We acknowledge [ that the words of S. Cyril of Jerusalem ] were truly cited : but for clearing of them we shall neither alledge any thing to the lessening the Authority of that Father , tho' we find but a slender Character given of him by Epiphanius and others . Nor shall we say any thing to lessen the Authority of these Catechisms , tho' much might be said . But it is plain , S. Cyril's design in these Catechisms was only to possess his Neophytes with a just and deep sense of these holy Symbols . But even in his fourth Catechism he bids them , not to consider it as meer Bread and Wine , for it is the Body and Blood of Christ. By which it appears he thought it was Bread still , tho' not meer Bread. And he gives elsewhere a very formal account in what sense he thought it Christ's Body and Blood , which he also insinuates in his Fourth Catechism : for in his first Mystical Catechism , when he exhorts his young Christians to avoid all that belonged to the Heathenish Idolatry , he tells , That on the Solemnities of their Idols , they had Flesh and Bread , which by the Invocation of the Devils were defil'd , as the Bread and Wine of the Eucharist , before the Holy Invocation of the blessed Trinity , was bare Bread and Wine : but the Invocation being made , the Bread becomes the Body of Christ. In like manner ( says he ) those Victuals of the Pomp of Satan , which of their own nature are common or bare Victuals , by the Invocation of the Devils become prophane . From this illustration , which he borrowed from Justin Martyr his second Apology , it appears that he thought the Consecration of the Eucharist was of a like sort or manner with the prophanation of the Idolatrous Feasts ; so that as the substance of the one remained still unchanged , so also according to him must the substance of the other remain . Or if this will not suffice them , let us see to what else he compares this change of Elements by the Consecration . In his Third Mystag . Catech. treating of the consecrated Oil , he says , As the Bread of the Eucharist , after the Invocation of the Holy Ghost , is no more common Bread , but the Body of Christ ; so this Holy Oyntment is no more bare Oyntment , nor , as some say , common , but it is a gift of Christ , and the presence of the Holy Ghost , and becomes energetical of his Divinity . And from these places let it be gathered what can be drawn from S. Cyril's Testimony . And thus we have performed likewise what we promised , and have given a clear account of S. Cyril's meaning from himself , from whose own words , and from these things which he compares with the Sanctification of the Elements in the Eucharist , it appears he could not think of Transubstantiation ; otherwise he had neither compared it with the Idol-Feasts , nor the consecrated Oyl , in neither of which there can be supposed any Transubstantiation . I will at present add only three or four Notes about this place of St. Cyril . First , that the Romish Translator Grodecius a has ( as should seem ) to help this matter in his way , render'd the words , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , by , sub specie panis , & sub specie vini , under the shew of Bread , and under the shew of Wine , instead of in the Type ( or Figure ) of Bread , and in the Type ( or Figure ) of Wine . Secondly , that just before the words cited in favour of Transubstantiation , he uses these . But in the new [ not Law as the Translator has it , but ] Covenant , the heavenly Bread , and the Cup of Salvation sanctifie Soul and Body ; as the Bread agrees to the Body , so the Word to the Soul. It should hence seem that the Body of Christ meant by St. Cyril , was the Word , and that both Bread and the Word , were received by the Communicant . Thirdly , that St. Cyril's Third Catechise of the Illuminate , or baptized , opens the Sense of the Fourth Mystagogical Catechise ; for there he speaks , in a very high strain , of Consecrated Water , and advises the Persons to be baptiz'd a to come not as to common Water , but as to the spiritual Grace given together with the Water . Fourthly , It is much to be doubted whether this be the Book of St. Cyril of Jerusalem ; for , besides that Gesner saies , he saw that Book in the Ausburg Library , under the Name of John of Constantinople : the Author forbids his Hearers to be Frequenters of Spectacles in Theaters , or of Horse-races in Hippodromes ; for this there was no occasion at Jerusalem since it had become Christian ; there being , especially in his time , no such Sports and Places there that I have ever read of . So , in three Quotations , the two first are taken out of suspected Authors ; yet I will allow the Catechisms to be ancient , and to be ascrib'd to St. Cyril by Sophronius and St. Hierom ; yet they note that he compos'd them in his youth a . 3. Touching the Quotation out of Justin Martyr , it was this in English , and read out of the abovesaid Sheets called Speculum Ecclesiasticum , by Mr. P. S. Justin. &c. I suppose , in Charity , that Antonio for Antonino , is the mistake of the Printer ; but'tis a mistake of some body else , when 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , is translated , As the Word of God , Jesus Christ our Redeemer being made man , &c. instead of by the Word of God [ or the Divine Spirit ] Jesus Christ being made flesh , &c. b . But to pass to something more material . I observe , first , That the foregoing words of Justin , which are very considerable , are omitted , viz. That [ at the end of the Eucharist ] the Ministers distribute to every one present , that he may partake of the consecrated Bread , and Wine , and Water , &c. Justin calls it Bread after Consecration , as St. Paul did before him . I observe , secondly , that Justin interprets himself whilst he saies , It is not Common-Bread ; as if he had , said , It is Bread in its Nature , but being consecrated , and made the Figure and Pledge of Christ's Body , it deserves a higher Name ; and indeed this is a Key to the Expressions of most of the Fathers , and particularly to St. Cyril , as has been already shown ; and it is plain to those who read the Fathers with Attention , that they use such Language in relation to the Water in Baptism , as they do in reference to the Bread and Wine in the Eucharist , without teaching a Substantial change ; so Greg. Nyssen . despise not the Divine Washing , nor make light of it as Commmon c . I note , thirdly , that Justin affirms of the consecrated Bread and Wine , that they nourish the Body ; and that therefore he is no Teacher of Transubstantiation , which removes the Substances which nourish the Body . And now , how far is it from the true Art of Thinking , and the sincere love of Truth , to draw a Proof for a pretended Article of Faith , from the high and hyperbolical Phrases of the Ancients ? by the same reason , if the World should last 14 , or 1500 years , men might conclude that the Church of England taught the Doctrine of the Corporal Presence as well as the Church of Rome , she having used these words in the Office of the Communion at the Consecration of the Elements ; — Grant that we , receiving these thy Creatures of Bread and Wine , according to thy Son our Saviour Jesus Christs Holy Institution in remembrance of his Death and Passion , may be Partakers of his most blessed Body and Blood. — An Account of Doctor Tenison 's and Doctor Celgat 's going to the Savoy to Mr. Pulton . UPon October the 3d. 87. Dr. Tenison and Dr. Claget went to the Savoy about Five at Night : After having found Mr. Pulton , the Jesuit , in his Lodgings there , Dr. Tenison desired him to call to them any one of his Friends , that he might hear the Discourse which he was about to offer . After being twice or thrice pressed to it by Dr. Tenison , he call'd one in the Habit of a Jesuit , a Grave and Civil Person ; his Name was not asked . Then Dr. Tenison apply'd himself to Mr. Pulton on this manner ; Sir , I was inform'd that on Sunday last in the Afternoon , after you had finished your Exposition on some Point in the Catechism , you spake to the Company in the Chappel to this Effect . I believe you have heard of a late Conference , in which I was concern'd . It is not the way of Catholicks to make a great noise of such Matters ; but if the Protestants make a stir about it , then next Sunday , in this place , I will give you an Account of that which pass'd in that Conference . Mr. Pulton and the other Jesuit own'd that he had said this , and that he was not Misrepresented ; upon which Dr. Tenison told him that he had opened the Scene , and that if he himself had done so at St. Martins , it was his Opinion he should not have observ'd the Rules of Peace and Decency . Mr. Pulton answered , He had neither named Dr. Tenison in his Chappel , nor elsewhere spoken ill of him ; and that he was moved to this by the Dirt that was cast upon him by Papers and Words in Coffee-houses . Dr. Tenison assured him , That he was not the Author of such Papers or Words , and that he himself had had his share of Slanderous Words from some of his Party ; and he gave him a remarkable Instance of that Nature , which is in Dr. Tenison's Account above Repeated . After which Dr. Tenison said , that he came to make a double Proposal to him ; either to give one another Liberty to use such Discourse , and to Publish such Papers in all Companies and Places , as should seem meet to each of them ; or else to proceed as was agreed upon at the end of the Conference . That is to say , First , That Dr. Tenison should send in Writing to Mr. Pulton , what he judged fit of that which had passed , and of that which he had undertaken in a Paper which he sign'd relating to Mr. Pulton's First Quotation out of St. Ambrose ; as also of that which he said in Reference to Mr. Pulton's Second Quotation out of the Catechism of St. Cyril of Jerusalem , and his Third , Read by the same Mr. Pulton out of a Printed Paper , and cited as Justin Martyr's . Then , that Mr. Pulton should send to Dr. Tenison his Answer in Writing : After which they might proceed to more Quotations , and further Replies . Here Mr. Pulton stuck a while , and show'd a little Heat , which his Friend soon temper'd . Mr. Pulton would have confined Dr. Tenison to that which he call'd his Main Point ; and complain'd further , that Dr. Tenison would not hear out all his Quotations , though there was not time for all , there being others in a Paper Book , besides that in his Breviary , and those in his Printed Sheets ; and to allude to them as call'd , the Soldiers Paper , to hear all read over before the answering of One , seemed to Dr. Tenison as absurd as not to permit a Soldier to answer to his Name till all the Muster-Roll is call'd over . Further , Dr. Tenison was for setting forth the Matter at length , and desir'd not to be confin'd to Mr. Poulton's new Method , leaving him to the liberty of making such Objections as he judged fit in the Case . Mr. Pulton's Friend perswaded him to go on thus , and at last Mr. Pulton yielded to it . Here Dr. Clegat interpos'd , and said , That Dr. Tenison had taken a good Course to prevent false Reports , by coming to him to adjust the Method betwixt themselves , and that it had been better if Mr. Pulton had done the like before he had spoken of the Matter in his Chappel in the Savoy ; and that Dr. Tinison had , by his Proposition , show'd that his Intentions were fair . Then some Discourse was had about St. Ambrose de Sacramentis , another Place in the true St. Ambrose , and Alexander Natalis's Arguments about the former Book . Dr. Clegat said , That his Arguments had need be good , for he knew that Writer too well to take any thing upon his meer Authority . Then Dr. Clegat being to go into the Country was desirous to take leave ; but before that was done , Dr. Tenison intreated Mr. Pulton to give him such Printed Sheets as he had used at the Conference . Mr. Pulton said he knew not where they were , and went into his Study to look for them , but came again and said , he could not find them . Then Dr. Tenison ask'd him what Title they had ; he said , he had forgot . It seem'd strange that he should forget the Title of a Writing out of which he had Disputed , though 't is plain he was not perfectly Vers'd in it , for there he might have found Pope Innocent the Third , about whom he was at a loss . The Truth is , the Title was such , that it was not worth the remembring , though it was so Remarkable , that a Man could scarce forget it : viz. Speculum Eccelesiasticum ; rendred an Ecclesiastical Prospective-glass , instead of Looking-glass : But as Phantastical as it was , and as falsly render'd , they found it Pasted up in the Entrance to the Savoy Chappel , and there left it : Mr. Pulton being with them , and having told them that the Woman that sold those Sheets , ( who was then out of the way ) or else N. T. would furnish them with this Piece . So they took leave Civilly one of another , after Mr. Pulton had Courteously invited , Dr. Clegat and Dr. Tenison to taste of their Beer , and they , being in haste , had with Thanks excused themselves . This is a Faithful Relation of what passed at the Savoy whilst I was there with Dr. Tenison , Mr. Pulton and another Jesuit , Octob. 3d. William Clegat . Dr. Tenison afterwards looking into these Sheets , was amaz'd that Mr. Pulton should be so earnest to read further Quotations from them ; for there he found a great many Books plainly spurious , ( besides that De Sacramentis under St. Ambrose's Name ) cited as genuine ; of this Number are these : The Third Epistle of St. Anacletus , Canon 39. Arab. of the First Council of Nice , St. Cyril of Hierusalem , l. 3. in Apol. contra Ruffin . c. 4. If there be such a Book in the World ascrib'd to St. Cyril by any one before . I suppose he has Confounded St. Cyril with St. Hierom , in the Second Tome of whose Works is such a Book as Apologiae adversus Ruffinum libri tres . But enough of this Magical-glass , which shows us St. Cyril in another Man's Figure , and sets before our Eyes Pope Leo presiding in the Council of Chalcedon , and Pope Vigilius presiding in the Second Council of Constantinople , with other such Sights which the Learned World ne'er saw before . On Octob. 9th . being the Lords Day , Mr. Pulton , in the Mass-house at the Savoy , spake thus to the People . I know it is expected I should now speak of a late Conference I had ; but the Dr. having since then been with me , to acquaint me he had not taken any Measures about speaking thereof in the Pulpit , desir'd therefore that I would not ; to which I promis'd him ; so , for your Information of what passed there , you are to expect it from Methods which may be concluded on . This , how well soever intended , gave occasion to the People to spread it all about the City , that Dr. Tenison had been with Mr. Pulton to beg of him to say nothing of the Conference , as being afraid that the Truth should come out . Mr. Pulton's first Letter to D. T. thus superscrib'd . This for the very Reverend Doctour , Doctour Tenison , Pastour of St. Martins . The Savoy this 4th . of Octob. 1687. Very Reverend Doctour , AS it was my desire in the beginning to say nothing but what should be write , so you having now accepted that Condition , I desire the same methode may be observed in our wrighting which was followed in our Conference and the Rule of Faith having been the Question principally debated , I humbly crave that may be first voided , lest we embroil things by embracing to much togeather , then we will pass , as you shall please , to collateral Questions . I have not shewed yet a Copy of the enclosed to any body out of our house , complying with the Condition put : you may take your leasure to answer it as your greater Occasions may allow . I have got it write out fair , by reason I wright my self so ill . Reverend and Learned Doctour , Your most obliged , and humble Servant to command , Andrew Pulton . The Paper which was inclos'd in this Letter , the Reader will find afterwards with Notes upon it . Doctor Tenison's Answer to Mr. Pulton 's first Letter . Octob. 5th . 87. Sir , LAst night I received your Letter and a Paper inclos'd in it ; and I pray you to excuse me , if I do not follow the methods there prescrib'd by you . You cannot forget the Agreement made at your Lodgings on Munday Night . I was to take my way in writing to you , and you were to form your Answer as you pleas'd . I shall stand to the Agreement . If I write that which is weak , refuse me ; if that which is rude , reprove me ; if that which is false , be as severe as you please with me ; I shall account it a kindness . I shall ( with God's Permission ) begin to write at large to morrow , having minutes by me already ; and on Munday next I hope to send you the first Copy of that which I shall write , if not on Saturday . And in the mean time no man shall have one line about this matter out of my hands : Neither have I hitherto written one word about it in any Note or Letter to any man living ; notwithstanding , I have been sufficiently importun'd . And tho' ( I confess ) I differ very widely from you in many things , yet you may expect nothing contrary to Truth and Humanity from , Reverend Sir , Your Servant in all Christian Offices , Tho. Tenison . Mr. Pulton 's second Letter to Dr. T. delivered to T. T. at one of the Clock , Septemb. 5th . 87. Very Reverend Doctor , I Was something surpriz'd , that a Person of your credit in the World , should return me such an Answer to my so reasonable demand . I can't think you believe me so imprudent and weak , as when I admitted of your answering the Authority of St. Ambrose ( on which I put very little stress ) that I would let fall the mean Question : no , Honoured Sir , as you desire to be esteem'd a fair Adversary , so I expect you return a positive Answer to our principle difficulty , as well as a collaterall Controversy ; I beg the favour therefore , that you return me an Answer this Evening , whether you accept this Condision ? if not , I remain free to take such measures as I shall find necessary to thwart the injurious and scandalous Reports which run up and down the Town , much to my Prejudice , in expectation of which , I remain , Reverend Sir , Your most obliged Servant , A. Pulton . Dr. Tenison's Answer to Mr. Pulton's second Letter , Octob. 5th . 87. One of the Clock . Sir , I Perceive by yours , which your Scholars brought just now to me , that you are under a Misapprehension , both as to my Temper and my Purpose in the matter before us . You seem to have a Suspicion of me , as a cunning man , and as one who , in what I promised to write , would take the advantage of insisting on one Quotation of yours , believed by me to be out of a spurious Author , and pass by the rest , and the principal things in debate , and particularly those in your Paper sent yesterday to me : No , Sir , you may assure your your self , that I am too blunt a man to be a man of Artifice , and that I will ( if God gives me Health ) consider the whole , and not neglect your Paper , tho' I will not be precisely tied to it , for that was none of our Agreement : What the Agreement was , is well known to your Friend and mine , who were present all the time we discoursed of that matter in the Savoy . No more now , ( being in business of another nature ) but that I am , Reverend Sir , Your Friend to serve you in all the Offices of the common Christianity , Tho. Tenison . I cannot procure your Speculum Ecclesiasticum . I sent my Man this Morning to her , who ( you said ) sold them ; and she said , She had not one . Mr. Pulton 's third Letter , Octob. 8. 87. Very Reverend Sir , YOur last was in terms so ambiguous , that I cann't sufficiently gather the intentions from it , you won't neglect my Paper , not yet will you do what most reasonably is required thereby . We having agreed therefore to wright , I thought my self bound first to disabuse the World in reference to the matters of Fact of S. Michael's day , then return me a fair Answer to the difficultie therein propos'd , but not solved : to which I won't fail speedily to answer as becomes the Zeal I have for the Truth . The impudent Lyes of 5. 10. and 15. Jesuits being silenc'd , running up and down the Town and Kingdom of which we are allready informed from the West and North with the daily false accounts given out by the Brasier ( which I can prove against him , and which you ought not to have allow'd of , but hindred ) has oblieged me to hasten this short Account of that Transaction , which shall not lye under the scandalous acception it has hitherto had , if you would have any thing else added to it , within a few days I shall have leisure to give a more full , but allways ingenuous Account . This is at present wherein I am obliged to show how I am , Honoured Sir , Your obedient Servant , A. Pulton . I have tak'd with Mr. U. and he professeth that he hath bin rather sparing then profuse in his Discours about the Conference ; and that it cannot be prov'd against him , that be spread any one fals Tale , unless by such a Witness as his lying Apprentice . J. S. T. T. Dr. Tenison 's Third Letter to Mr. Pulton . To the Reverend Mr. Pulton at his Lodgings in the Savoy . Octob. 10. 87. SIR , ON Friday I had finished my Account of the Conference , and my further Animadversions on your Quotations out of the Fathers . And I did not write the first at large , till after I had called to me four Credible Persons , who happen'd to be hearers , and had read my Minutes to them , and was satisfy'd by them that my Memory had not fail'd me . In some few things they refresh'd it , and nothing was set down which was not believed to be such as Partiality had not corrupted . Some stragling Words were not gathered up , as that about false Coin remembered in your Narrative , and the Accidental talk about the Quietists , concerning whom Mr. Meredith said they were extinct . If I have touch'd upon any Infirmity of yours , I presume it will be the more easily Pardon'd , seeing I do not spare my self . I thought it would give the greater satisfaction to tell the whole Truth , having observed , as others do , that in such Cases , ordinary things give Light to those which are more Material . If our Motions shall seem to the World somewhat too irregular for Divines , I hope it will be considered that we met with Noise and Interruption . My Amanuensis having promised me to Transcribe the whole before Eight this Morning , I did purpose to send it to you ; but on Saturday in the Evening , I received from you a Letter , and with it your Account of the Conference ; and being desirous to send you some Notes upon your Narrative , and having had no free Minute from that time to this for such an Affair , and being willing to lay before you all at once , I think I must delay my further sending till Wednesday or Thursday . And then ( by God's leave ) there shall , be conveighed to you a just Representation of the whole that relates to this Controversie betwixt us . And tho' you have not kept to our Agreement , yet I shall certainly do so . You were to expect my Account and then to send your Answer , and not first to write a Narrative , and then to percipitate ( as I hear you have done ) the Publishing of it . I will keep to my Agreement made before Witnesses ; and no Man has had , or shall have , either from me or my Amanuensis , a Note or Letter about this Affair , or so much as a Line of the Account , till a Copy has been lodg'd in your own Hands . You have given me an Advantage , not coveted by me , through the many Motions you have made since we were ( as I thought ) fixed , by consent ; and in this , tho' not in many other things , I may apply to my self , that which was said by the Bishop of Ross ; ( a subtile and observing Man ) concerning Sir Nicholas Bacon ; viz. That he could not come within him , because he offer'd no Play. What you say in your Defence , of false Reports , and of the Ambiguous Words in my Letter , is not enough to excuse the Alteration of our Agreement . My Letter is in your Hands ; and in it you were plainly told that I would keep to my Word , of which it was no part that I should , in what I was to write , follow your scanty and constrained Rules . Truth is best painted at full length , and with the freest Air ; for false Reports , if they would set a Man at Liberty from his Promise , then it would be also Lawful for me to Sacrifice Truth to Fame . For your People have been very liberal in their Talk ; and they who have spread the Story of my going to the Savoy to ask your Pardon , and of Five Ministers silenc'd by one Jesuit ( the Deans of Peterborough and Windsor , Dr. Horneck , Mr. Wake , and my self ; though none of them were there , my self excepted ) with other such Groundless Calumnies , had certainly no design of raising our Reputations . But why should we be so eager about that , which on either Hand is said of us ? One Week of Patience would have serv'd your purpose better , and a little time would have settled and clear'd Reports . But you have broken loose , and you may go your own way . I , for my part , as far as Truth will lead me , will attend your Motions in the Quality of , Sir , Your Servant . Tho. Tenison . Mr. Pulton 's Fourth Letter to Dr. T. The Savoy 11th . of Octob. 1687. Honoured Sir , YOU were pleased in yours of yesterday , to Expostulate at large with me concerning the Agreement made between us which you judge me to have infring'd . I humbly beg the favour to know in what : for I am Conscious to my self of nothing in that kind , nor by the Grace of God ever will be . All the Agreement we made , when you did me the Honour of coming to our Lodgings in the Savoy ; was First , That I should not give an Account of our Conference from the Pulpit , you not having taken those Mesures , as you said ; Secondly , you desir'd that you might answer the Quotation of St. Ambrose , I said I was content , provided I might be allow'd to give in all the Testimonies that I had to alledge to the same Matter . You desired you might first Answer to St. Ambrose , and that then I might go on to the rest of the Fathers , to which I also assented , then you added I should have the first Copy . Now there was not one Syllable spoke relating to my wrighting , or not wrighting an Account of the Matter of Fact past , nor had I broke my Word , tho' I had not sent you the first Copy ( which notwithstanding I refused to let Dr. Waker peruse before you had it ) the wrighting agreed on only being in reference to a further prosecuting the Arguments before propos'd ; I will notwithstanding take it in that Point , as you are pleas'd to do , and I have hitherto done , and accordingly will send you my entire Narrative by the Hands which shall bring yours if possible . I desire you to take the freedome , when you have it , to let me know before we print ( for I suppose it will come to that ) what you may except against in the whole , and I will do the same to you , and by this means Truth by degrees will come to Light. What you say Five Doctors to one Jesuit , I have never heard it from any but your self , a nor do I believe there is Three in the Kingdom that give Credit to it , tho' Thousands believe things more injurious to me : Had not your Party made our Conference a common Cause , and run down the Catholicks with hundreds of fals Reports ; I had never once opened my Mouth concerning the Conference , but you must know Justice and Conscience oblige me to it ; unless you may prescribe some more amicable way of disabusing the Kingdom , then by Publick Narratives , in attendance whereof I remain Your obliged Servant A. Pulton . I am inform'd you desown you ever spoke to me to desire I woed not make a Pulpit Matter of it , may I beg the favour to know whither this be so or no ? or whither you have been pleas'd to give out you came to give a second challenge . If any say you came to ask Pardon , I declare they injure you . Dr. Tenison 's Answer to Mr. Pulton 's Fourth Letter . Octob 12th . 87. Sir , I Will not be tedious in answering yours of the 11th . Instant , in relation to our Agreement , for of that we have Witnesses . I am now assured that Copies of your Account were spread all over the City , whilst I have kept my Word of sending my first Copy to you , and have not sent abroad one single Line ; but after your Receipt of this ( seeing you have begun on this manner ) I will let the World know the whole Truth , so far as my Memory with all due helps will serve me , and from Truth I would not willingly swerve a Tittle . For the Story of my going to the Savoy to ask your Pardon , it is made very common , though I do not charge you with it ; and if you be curious about Places and Persons , I will name some of them to you . I never said I came to give you a second Challenge : Nor did I come to beg of you to forbear your talking of this Matter in your Pulpit , but to Expostulate with you about the unfitness of that way , and to understand whether you would keep to the Method you agreed on at the end of our ( rambling Talk rather than ) Conference ; and to tell you , that in my Judgment , it was most becoming . The Jesuit , your Witness , did not differ from me in this Opinion , nor Doctor Claget who was mine . I did purpose ( as I told you ) to send something to you about your Account , but having perused it , I perceived you might by comparing it with mine , see what you omitted , what you mistook , and what ( as to me it seems ) you sometimes added ; I will therefore save you the trouble of my Notes upon your Narrative , though , perhaps in due time I may help others ( who may not carry my Account in their Heads ) with such Animadversions . I believe in this as you do , that it may be fit to Print the whole , for the quieting of People , who are , as yet , in suspence ; and seeing you put me in Mind of it , I resolve by that way to ease my self of the trouble of transcribing Copies . You have my Letters and I yours , and your Account , and with this I send you mine , together with a pursuit of my Discourse about your three first Quotations . Do with them what you please , and write what you please further , and I will take the like freedom . My Stationer , ( which I did but just now know of ) is at Oxford , so that I must elsewhere apply my self ; but this I promise you , that as soon as I send any thing to the Press , I will give charge to the Printer , to conveigh to you , by way of due notice , the first Sheet that shall be wrought off : All things on my part shall be fair ; and I am not your Enemy , unless ( which God forbid ) you will account me so for telling the Truth , but can still , very heratily Subscribe my self , SIR , Your Friend as far as oblig'd by the Gospel of our Blessed Saviour , Tho. Tenison . Mr. Pulton 's PAPER sent in his first Letter , with Dr. Tenison 's Animadversions upon it . Mr. Pulton's Paper . AS the concern I had , that the Truth might appear to a Soul that was in search of it , made me willing to enter on a Discourse of that Subject with you , so I humbly beg , that nothing but Charity , and a true Sense of Zeal may appear in what may happen to be writt by either of us , not to the Scandal , but to the Edification of all such as may peruse our Papers . You having therefore been pleas'd in our late Conference to assign the Holy Scriptures for the Rule of Faith , I desired of you the Favour to know what assurance you had , that the Volumes you call Holy Scripture , are the undoubted Word of God ; and this having been the main Point of our four hours Discourse , I humbly crave a more clear and positive Answer then I could then obtain . You were pleas'd to say , the Bible had been handed down to you from the Apostles . Then I desired the Favour to know who they were that had so handed it down to you : you replied , the Universal Church . Whereupon I demanded what you meant by the Universal Church . You answered , That you mean't all those several Bodies who make up the number of Christians . Then I farther pressed to know whether all these made up one true Church , or no. You said there was something true in each of them , but would assign none void of great corruption . Upon which I replied , That the Volumes which wholy relied on corrupted Authority , could have no assurance of being the pure , true , and certain Word of God. And here we stuck near 2 hours , I never being able to obtain a satisfactory Answer . I humbly therefore crave to be satisfied , 10. Whither receiving the Scripture from the Universal Church , you have received a Canon common to all distinct Bodies of Christians ? If not , that you farther explicate what you mean by taking the Scripture from the Universal Church . 20. How the Universal Church consisting in Members disagreing in Faith can give you a true and certain Rule of Faith. 30. If , when you begann , you pretended Reformation , there was any Church in being , which had that precise Canon you have now , and explicated it as you do . If so , be pleas'd to assign where it was , and how you took your Scripture from it . As for what related to Transubstantiation and Real Presence , it having been a Question thrown in by the by , I desire it may be remitted to the second place ; and having cleared the present difficultie where the stresse of the Discourse lay , we will then pass to particular Controversies , if you please . Dr. Tenison 's short Notes upon this PAPER . 1. IT calls the Boy a Soul who was in search after Truth , whilst , at the same time , Mr. P. was satisfy'd that the Boy had never acquainted his Father , his Master , his Minister , with his Doubts , till after he had been at Mass ; and was by his Master and Mistress accused of having been guilty of unsufferable lying , and neglect of Business , and of the growth of both since he had had Conversation with a Romish Apprentice , and Mr. P. and others of that way . It is not a thing to be easily credited , that a Soul that is in sincere and diligent search after Truth of Doctrine , should at the same time become more sinful than formerly in the invention of Lyes , and more sowre in Nature , and more faithless in the duty of his Calling . 2 Mr. P calls the Rule of Faith , and the proving the Holy Bible to be that Rule , the main Point . Whereas it was , indeed , the Point he desir'd to begin with ; but it was not that which the Boy had mention'd , but the inconsistence of Luther about the Sacraments , and his pretended Colloquie with the Devil , which therefore was in true order , to be begun with . But in this there is too much Art ; for the People may be amused by talk about the Copies of the Bible , and the Tradition of them , and carried into the dark , and so be led the more easily by those , who with the greatest Confidence , call themselves Guides : seeing they are not themselves Masters of critical History ; but they are more capable of more particular Points ( as Ex. gr . of the Communion in one kind , which the People can find to be contrary to the Bible ) and therefore that which is tenderest they are not so willing to touch in popular Conferences . It is enough , if they can get them to the Authority of their Church , and then the obedient Child swallows whatsoever the Mother gives it . 3. It is said , no particular Answer was given : it will be found otherwise in the account of the Conference . But if a sufficient Sum be tendered , and Mr. P. be out of humour to receive it , he ought not to complain , that he cannot have his Debt paid him . If Dr. T. had said less , certainly it had not been out of unreadiness to answer , seeing in that matter he was prepared , he having publish'd a Tract about the Rule of Faith , of which a second Edition came forth but a while ago , and no Answer has been yet made to it , whether out of contempt of the imperfections of it ; or for other Reasons , he cannot tell . And here , seeing Self-defence is not vanity , he takes occasion to make mention of another Tract scribbled by him against the Romish Author of the Protestants Plea for a Socinian ; at the latter end of which , a Mr. Meredith's Question about being judg'd by another , or going on our own head , is answer'd , tho not so fully as by another Pen b : and to be perpetually answering Questions answered already , is a Task which a person of good breeding will not impose , till the Answer first given , is refuted by him . It is true , there was one who cited a few lines of the latter Tract , who , if he had cited a few more , had spoil'd his design of Misrepresentation c . His words are these : If you have seen the Answer to the Protestants Plea for a Socinian , you 'l find there ( Pag. 26. ) he points it out for the mark of a Right Socinian , to make Reason the Rule of the Scriptures . Such a one ( says he ) makes Reason the Rule of the Rule . He goes no farther ; for that which follows shews the Author to have spoken of their Reasonings , not of Reason it self , which if any Man allows them in their own Doctrines , he , in effect , does yeild them the Cause . That which , there , follows is this . Though he [ the Right Socinian ] thinks a Doctrine is plain in Scripture , yet if he believes it to be against HIS REASON , He assents not to it . And P. 27. — A Man of this Church [ of England ] suspects not Reason it self , but his own present Art of Reasoning , whensoever it concludes against that which he reads , and reads without doubting of the Sense of the Words . If the Representer can come no nigher the Likeness , he may , if he please , lay down his Pencil . D. T. owns that this is a Digression , but he judged it better ( seeing there was no more needed ) to write a Paragraph in defence of himself against a publick unjust Cavil , than to trouble the World with a whole Book . 4. Whereas it is said that by the Universal Church Dr. T. said he meant the several Bodies who make up the Number of Christians , which Mr. P. afterwards calls distinct Bodies ; Dr. T. did not use that Phrase . For his Words were remarkable enough , that he meant , by the Universal Church , what he called it every Lords Day before Sermon , the Congregation of Christian People dispersed throughout the World. And he added that he took in the Testimony of Jews , and Heathens , and might believe Men sincere when they spake against themselves ; and that he also took in the Roman Church in the better Ages , and honest Men in it , who , in the corrupter Ages , gave Testimony against its Corruptions , as they arose . And he always inserted this Caution , that he took this Testimony from such Universal Consent , with Considerations of the Persons as agreeing Witnesses , and not from their Authority . 5. There is Craft in putting in the words , distinct Bodies ; as if the Being of a Church could not be continued , and the Corruptions of it opposed and relinquish'd , without going forth to some other Body of Men , free from all such Corruptions . Mr. P. may please to answer Dr. T. in this Point about the Church of the Literal Israel , besides which there was then no other Church ; and enlighten him by the Resolution of this Query , whether there may be a Reformation in a Church without leaving of it ? The Learned Dr. Jackson said it long ago * , That our Church was in the Romish Church before Luther's Time , and yet in it , neither as a visible Church altogether distinct from it , nor as any native Member of it . To his Arguments and Explications at present I refer Mr. P. tho there are others of other kinds of equal weight and clearness . For the rest , the aforesaid Account of the Conference , will shew how far this Paper of Mr. Pulton's is true ; and whether it contains a fair Proposal , when it offers in Exchange for the Contents of it , that which is really thinner Stuff , and much shorter Measure . The Account written by Mr. Pulton . A True Account of a Conference had about Religion between Dr. T. and A. P. on the 29th of September , 1687 , in Long-Acre , London . Dr. T 's Note . MR. P. scattered Copies of this Account , and Dr. T. saw three of them on Monday October the 10th . Dr. T. and Mr. P. spent their time very ill , if so lame an Account as this of a four-Hours Conference be a true one . How far it is from the whole Truth , has been already shewn in Dr. T 's fuller and more impartial Relation . And it is so ill repeated that Mr. P. having by so doing made it his own , may take the whole to himself . For Dr. T 's part he will not be his Stirrop to be let down and taken up at his Pleasure . That which is against him is omitted by him , and that which he thinks is for him , is added , tho never spoken . Mr. Pulton's Account . ON Monday there came a Youth to A. P. who desir'd to know , if he was willing to accept of a Conference with D. H. concerning Religion ? He answer'd that he was ; But on Tuesday it was told him Dr. T. would be the Person , he must meet at 3 in the Afternoon on Thursday : Accordingly the Parties met on the said Thursday , being Michaelmas Day . A. P. came with one Witness ( no Priest ) Dr. T. alone : And when the Doctor excepted against the Gentleman , A. P. was willing he should retire , and pitch'd upon another who casually came in at the same time , tho not so much as known by name to A. P. If the Doctor would have no Witness present , then A. P. desir'd all might depart , except the young Man upon whose account they met ( the Room being now full . ) The Doctor not assenting to that , ( a ) A. P. press'd much , that whatsoever should be said on either side , might be writ down , but this not being accepted of , the Subject of the Conference was proposed by A. P. who desir'd the Doctor to give the young Man ( b ) a Rule of Faith which might keep him in the Church of England . After some Preambles the Doctor was pleas'd to assign the Holy Scriptures . To which A. P. reply'd , that there were ( c ) two things incumbent on the Doctor to prove ; 1. That the Books which he called the Scripture , were truly such . 2. That when so prov'd , they were of themselves a sufficient Rule . But to the second Point nothing was said . To the first the Doctor replied , that their Bible had been handed down from the Apostles . A. P. desired to know by what Hands ? The Doctor answered , by the Testimony of ( d ) all the World , Turks , Jews , Gentiles , and Christians . But A. P. urging to know from what immediate Hands the Church of England had received them , when she began to reform ? The Doctor answered , From the Universal Church , and that he meant by Universal Church , all those ( e ) different Bodies who make up the whole Number of Christians . Then A. P. demanded , Whether those different Bodies of Christians made one true Church , or no ? Or , whether some one Part of them were so ? The Doctor , tho much press'd , would specify no Part , which he acknowledged free from Corruption . Upon that A. P. desired to know how the Doctor could make out , that his Bible was the pure and uncorrupt Word of God , if all those , from whose Testimony he took it , were corrupted , and consequently false Witnesses , and what Assurance he had ( f ) the sense of Holy Scripture , being , as he said , depraved , the Letter remained pure ? Here ( g ) a pleasant School-Master diverted the Auditory with a Picture , as he said , of the Blessed Trinity , and offer'd it A. P. with wry Mouths and Antick Gestures . But A. P. saying , he saw no Reason , why God appearing to Daniel under the Figure of an old Man , might not be so painted , provided one meant not to delineate him specie propriâ : He return'd to the Doctor , and press'd his forementioned Argument ; but the Schoolmaster continuing to give Diversion to the People , and throw in impertinent Questions ; A. P. desired him to be silent , saying , he came not to dispute with a Buffoon but a Doctor , which was ill taken . Dr. T. read a Lesson of Charity upon that occasion , endeavouring to prove that A. P. had violated the Holy-day . And when Mr. M. said in A. P's Defence that ( h ) S. Paul had used as sharp Language in a like occasion ; The Doctor replied that if A. P. was St. Paul , he might so do . When the Doctor had done his ( i ) Harangue , A. P. returned to his Argument , and much importun'd the Doctor to make out how he was assured his Bible was the pure Word of God , and not as full of Corruption and Falshood , as he believed those to be , from whom he received it . Here the Doctor call'd ( k ) Mr. M. from the Window whither A. P. had desired him to retire , that no Body might argue against the Doctor but himself , and instead of answering the Difficulty began a private Parly with Mr. M. And ( l ) A. P. could never obtain any thing like a Satisfactory Answer to his Difficulty propos'd . In the end he answer'd , the calling the Authority of Scripture in question disposed to Atheism . A. P. reply'd , he believed it might in their Principle , who having taken all Infallibility from the Church , could assert none for the Scripture . This Debate lasted upwards of 2 Hours , when the Doctor threw in several By-questions about St. Peter's being at Rome , ( m ) which when A. P. was ready to prove ( n ) the Doctor passed to the Real Presence , and Transubstantion . A. P. demanded of the Doctor , whom he would be judg'd by ( not being able at this time to obtain any Answer to the first and chief Query . ) The Doctor replied by the Universal Church . A. P. demanded whether by the Universal Church , now in being , or by that which had been in the four first Centuries ? The Doctor said , that of the four first Centuries . A. P. asking how we should know the Judgment of those Times ? The Doctor answered , by the Testimony of the Fathers then living . Then A. P. naming several , and proffering to begin with which the Doctor pleased , ( o ) he desired to hear St. Ambrose . A. P. thereupon read one out of his 4th Book de Sacramentis , which the Doctor noted down , and required A. P. to put his Hand to it , which he refus'd for the present , but said , as soon as he had produced his whole Evidence , he would then sign it . But the Doctor plainly refused to hear any more , saying that the rest would prove like that , which he believed to be of a Spurious Author . To which A. P. replied , that if he doubted of that Work , he would cite another of the same Author 's to the very same Intent of an unquestionable Work. But the Doctor refused absolutely to hear it . And continued to press A. P. to subscribe . He answered , that he would when all his Witnesses were heard , and with much ado after about 3 quarters of an hour after twenty endeavours , he obliged the Doctor to hear of Justinus his Apology to Antoninus Pius : ( p ) but that the Doctor would not note down , or hear one word more , which seeming unreasonable to Mr. M. he asked the Doctor ( using his own Instance ) whether or no , if one should come to pay him a ( q ) a Sum of Mony , and the first piece might appear somewhat dubious , he would refuse the rest upon that account , especially if the Party was content to change it in the very place . Now this Paper it is , which has made all the great Noise , as though the Doctor having summ'd up the whole Discourse , A. P. should refuse to sign what he had asserted . In this Debate the Parties rising up , the Doctor was pleased to say , that ( r ) the Papists were by their Principles Breakers of their Word , and proved against A. P. thus ; You believe yours to be the only saving Church , but you are bound to save all you can , therefore you are bound to break your Word ( given in your Paper of Rules of your Schools ) of not tampering with your Scholars in Matters of Religion . A. P. replied that it was a very injurious Assertion , and prov'd no more against him than his Majesty , which he thus proved . His Majesty believes his to be the only Saving Church , but his Majesty being Head of his People , is bound to endeavour to save them as much as A. P. to save his Scholars , therefore ( according to the Doctor 's Argument ) his Majesty is bound to break his Word given to his People of not forcing their Consciences . This Reflection was ill taken , and A. P. said he was willing to believe the Doctor spake it not with any such Intention ; but added that it was ill done to vent such Propositions , whence naturally and unavoidably ensued so bad Illations . Then A. P. answered directly , that no body was bound always to do all the good possible : And that to teach gratis Learning with the Fear of God was very well done , although one medled not with Religion ; and defied the Doctor to bring the Scholar , where note , that the Boy , on whose account the Dispute was held , was no Scholar ( that ever heard him touch a Point of Controversy in time of Schools , or tamper with him out of them . And this was the Conclusion of our Conference . ( s ) If any doubt of the Truth of any thing here asserted , let him go to Dr. T. to be inform'd , and desire him to shew the ( t ) Famous Paper , as also to receive a more satisfactory Answer , than A. P. could to the main Question . A. P. had never gone so far , as to give any publick account of this Affair , had not the Town and Kingdom been already full of very false , injurious and scandalous Reports relating thereunto : And tho upon the Doctors instance , A. P. promised not to speak of it from the Pulpit , Sunday next the 9th of this Instant , as he had intended ; yet now being so far provoked , he could not in Honour and Conscience but find some means to disabuse the World , since his Adversaries ( tho he believes not the Doctor ) have been so industrious to impose upon it . Dr. Tenison's Notes upon it . MR. P's Account begins unluckily , for he stumbles at the first setting out , he makes as if the Appointment which came from the Romans , proceeded from Dr. T. who , till it was made , knew nothing of it . ( a ) A. P. press'd Writing , yet when Dr. T. began to do so , he declined it ; But whereabouts would these Disputers be ? a while ago they were all for verbal Conferences , when written ones were offered as more safe and useful : Dr. T. is Witness of this in a greater Case , and so is an excellent Bishop and a worthy Dean . Now when verbal Conferences are agreed to , Writing is press'd . ( b ) A Rule of Faith which might keep the Boy in the Church of England . A new Art of shutting the Doors of St. Martin's Church for the keeping in of a Person , who was before gone out , and gone as far as Rome . ( c ) Two things — incumbent on the Doctor to prove ; 1. That the Books which he called the Scriptures , were truly such . 2. That when so proved , they were of themselves a sufficient Rule . But to the second Point nothing was said . Good Reason , for it was never propounded , the only Question of that kind was , Whether our Bible was a Bible , and how we could prove it to be so ? The Sufficiency and Purity of the Scriptures were Points never started . This Dr. T. is certain of from his own Memory , and from the Concurrence of more than an ordinary number of Witnesses , whom , upon this new Narrative , he consulted . ( d ) All the World , Turks , &c. The Turks were never named on this occasion . It had been monstrously absurd if they had . And when some judicious People , present at the Conference , heard this Paragraph of Mr. P's Narrative , they were amazed at the Invention . But no Additions are to be wondered at , where Men will add to the Creed it self . ( e ) Different Bodies who make up the whole Number of Christians . This Mistake of Mr. P's may be rectified , by what is said before in Dr. T 's Account , and Notes on Mr. P's . Paper . ( f ) The Sense of holy Scripture , being , as he said , depraved . If he means Dr. T. 't is a great Slander . It is true , he said it was happy for the World that the Copies of the Bible were so widely dispersed ; for if they had been all in Roman Hands , they wou'd have been in Danger . Of this Dr. T. was reminded by some of the Hearers of the Conference , upon the Perusal of this Narrative . ( g ) A pleasant Schoolmaster diverted the Auditory with a Picture . The Schoolmaster is of Age , and he will answer for himself . ( h ) St. Paul had us'd as sharp Language in a like occasion . This about St. Paul Dr. T. does not remember , nor do others who stood by Mr. M. for he spake of St. Jude , but perhaps it might be so . ( i ) Harangue . Dr. T. knows not what Mr. P. means by this : For to repeat a Verse out of St. Jude about the Disputation betwixt Michael and the Devil , is not properly haranguing . ( k ) — Mr. M. from the Window whither A. P. had desired him to retire . Mr. M. stay'd much longer , for he began to write upon the Back of D. T 's . Paper , as is aforesaid . And he removed upon a Gentlewoman's coming to him with a Mask in her Hand which gave occasion to another of that Sex to say to Mr. M. he chose to dispute rather with Ladies than Doctors . It is unhappy that amidst so many things , we can have nothing sincere , and in its Naturals . ( l ) A. P. could never obtain any satisfactory Answer to his Difficulty proposed . The Account shews that fit Answer was obtain'd , tho not accepted . ( m ) Which when A. P. was ready to prove . There was no occasion for that , for it was then granted that he was at Rome , but not till 25 years after Christ's Ascension . ( n ) The Doctor pass'd to the Real Presence and Transustantiation . Whereas he was led into it by Mr. P. upon his reading about it out of his Books and Sheets . ( o ) He desired to hear St. Ambrose . Mr. P. began with it of his own meer Motion , pulling out his Breviary , and reading the words . Dr. T. was so far from desiring to hear St. Ambrose first , that when Mr. P. began with him out of St. Ambrose , he told him he should not begin with so late an Author , but with S. Clement , and so go downwards . And if Mr. P. said any thing in general about Places in the true St. Ambrose , Dr. T. did not hear him repeat the Words . Nor is any other Book of St. Ambrose cited in his Breviary in that Place . ( p ) But that the Doctor would not note down . He had no reason to write a second Paper after having been refus'd signing of the first . But he spake enough to the Place as is before rehearsed . ( q ) Sum of Money . This was said to Mr. M. at the Window in the back-Room by Dr. T. himself . Mr. M. complain'd that Dr. T. was too hard upon Mr. P. supposing that Book was not St. Ambrose's . Dr. T. appeals to Mr. M. whether his answer was not this ; If a Man be to pay me a Sum of Money , and the first peice I take proves a brass Half-Crown , he that offers it to me , either knows it not , or , knowing of it , is not honest in offering it as good Coin. If Mr. P. will own either of these , that he was either ignorant , or insincere , I am content . ( r ) The Papists were by their Principles Breakers of their Word . Mr. P. has forgotten all about his Aequivocation , about Luther , Pope Innocent , and the Council of Lateran , the places of Scripture , the Pope's Jurisdiction , &c. But he will not fail of his Insinuation , He is an Enemy unto Caesar. And he here makes a Syllogism , which upon the place the Protestants could not hear ; and he omits Dr. T 's answer to Mr. M. and the Sense of the Company . ( s ) If any doubt of the Truth of any thing here asserted , let him go to Dr. T. to be inform'd . There have many come , and none have gone away yet unsatisfied . ( t ) — The famous Paper . No Body boasted of the Paper that Dr. T. knows of with relation to the Contents of it . But they laid some weight upon one's writing & signing , and the other 's refusing . Dr. T. had no great value for it , for he left it on the Table . But , it may be , it became the more famous for having been put by Mr. P. into his Pocket , out of which , after much shuffling about it , not knowing where to find it , he was prevailed with to pull it , by the importunity of an ingenious Woman . Thus far the Account reach'd which was written with Mr. P's own Hand . But in other Copies it was added , at the End , that Mr. P. desired to meet where Books were , and to have a Scrivener : If he did , he was not in danger of losing what he long'd for . For it was more than once , when Historical Things were talk'd of , that Dr. T. desired that Coaches might be call'd for , and that they might go where Books might be consulted . And when Offers , by Dr. T. were made about a Bible , about Beda , Aeneas Sylvius , Hoveden , and others ; they were refused . Dr. T. is certain that the Author of the Speculum , if he has been by Books , has not been in them . But to what purpose is it to go into Libraries , when they have already furnish'd the World ( in the Speculum ) with Authorities enough , and it may purchase them for Six-Pence ? The Copy of a Letter written by a Romanist , and conveyed by the Apprentice of — in L. A. to J. S. in order to his transcribing it , and sending i● to his Father into the Country . Most Dear and Honoured Father , NOthing could be more sensible to me than your extraordinary Affection you were pleased to shew in your last , and was there any thing less than an Eternity at stake , and the saving or losing my Immortal Soul ; I should have all the repentance in the World of disobliging you . Dear Father , take therefore a sum of those Motives which oblige me in Conscience to betake my self to the Church I am now resolv'd to embrace . The Roman-Catholick Church is allow'd to have been once the true Church built upon the Rock against which our Saviour promised Hell should never prevail , whence unless we will give our Saviour the Lye , she is still so . The Church , I am inform'd , had power during the four first Centuries , to summon and precide in General Councils , when any Debate arose concerning Religion , and they were reputed Hereticks who obeyed not her Decision . Now the same Reason and Authority which proves her to have had that power then , proves she must retain it still . Again I have heard clearly made out , that those or that Church are all of one Faith in all Countries . Whereas our Reform'd Churches all clash among themselves , and divide and subdivide without end ; and it can't be otherwise , they having no assured Guide , upon which they can rely . It is the Catholick-Church alone which is taught in all Countries , and none but the Pastors of that Church have any Zeal to go among Barbarous and Idolatrous People to convert them ; and if there be any Faith in History , God has seconded their Labours with manifest Miracles , Power over Devils , and the like . And I have never heard of any who can assume that to themselves beside them . Again , I am inform'd that among them abundance of Noble and Rich People follow the Evangelical Counsels , and leave all for God's sake ; and that they built and founded all those Monuments of Devotion and Churches we see now extant . Whereas our Reform'd Religions , have only serv'd to pull them down . And as I have lastly understood , was founded on the Leachery of King Harry the 8th , the Ambition of the Tutor of King Edward the 6th , and Violence of Queen Elizabeth , and only preserv'd by the Rigors of Penal Laws , and spilling the Blood of those who for a thousand Years had profess'd the Catholick Faith. All these things I have heard proved , with so much shew of Truth , that I should resist the Holy Ghost , if I obey'd not the Inspiration I have to become a Roman Catholick . Dr. Tenison has discours'd before me four Hours , but I am more confirm'd than I was before . Dear Father , Let not the force of Education and Prejudice so by as your Judgment , as to be angry with me for the best thing I ever have done in my Life , and if you had heard as much as I , I am sure , you would have that Sense of your Soul as to do as I do . All the Stories of their Selling Pardons , of their Idolatry and bloody Principles , are nothing but meer Calumnies . I humbly therefore crave that I may , notwithstanding my present Resolution , still be esteem'd , as I am with all Submission , Dear Father , Your most Obedient and Affectionate Son. Dr. T 's Notes on this Letter . THE Original of this Letter was sent to Dr. T. together with this Account of it . After J. S. had copied it , and it was seen where he had laid it , and was taken from thence : Mr. V. asked J. S. whether he had finished his Letter , and from what Copy he had taken it ? He answered from no Copy ; he urg'd him thrice , and he still denied it : At last Mr. V. brought forth the Original , and shew'd it to him , &c. then he was silent , instead of begging Pardon of God and his Master . The Author of the Letter fail'd in his own Art of Cunning , for he endeavoured to write an accurate Letter for a Boy who is not able to write one correct Line , as is plain by that which may be seen in his former Letter to his Father . He should not have perfumed his Paper , if he would not have had the Protestants to smell him out . 1. He begins the first Motive by saying , and by taking that for granted , which no Protestant will yield to him ; that the Roman Catholick Church is allowed to have been once THE True Church . This first Motive is a Fallacy , of The Church , for A Church : The Roman was once A true Church , but never The Church ; and a true Church may fail in Process of Time , as some of the seven Churches of the Lesser Asia did ; and St. Paul caution'd the Romans themselves against immoderate Confidence , lest They , as well as the obstinate Israclites , should be cut off . 2. The second Motive is taken from the Power of the Church to summon Councils , and to preside in them . This is the same Fallacy again of the Power of The Church in General , and of the particular Church of Rome , whose Popes were sometimes condemned by Councils , which the Emperors summon'd . It is absurd to say that the Church presides over the Council ; and they who presided , had Priority by it for that season , but not further Power . Mr. Pulton's ( or Mr. Ward 's Speculum ) shews Sylvester as presiding at the first Council of Nice ; but when he recollects himself , and finds he should have represented Hosius instead of Sylvester ( for he was not as is pretended , his Legat ) he will ( I suppose ) not be so liberal of Power to the President of a Council . For Councils they were not to give a Rule of Faith , but to make Peace in the Church , by proceeding according to the Rule , the Scripture . If it had been otherwise , the Christian World , in which from the Beginning were many Divisions and Heresies , had been long without a sufficient Guide or Rule , seeing there was no General Council till 325 years after Christ. They alledged Scriptures , and if they had not done so , Men would not have stood to heir meer Authority , or to any other Tradition than the Creed , and not to that but by universal Consent , as found in the Holy Bible . 3. The third Motive is their Unity , and the dividing and subdividing of the Reformed without end , as having no Guide . Yet the Protestants have the surest Rule , and due Ministerial Helps ; and they have published a Harmony of Confessions of Faith. And in the Roman Church , the Jansenists have accused the Jesuits of a new Heresy of the Pope's being infallible in Matters of Fact , and about many other things they are at variance . The Anti-blacloists accuse the Blacloists of Heresy about their Method of Oral Tradition . The Assembly of the Clergy of Hungary have lately condemned the Theses of the Assembly of the Clergy of France , as dangerous to the Souls of Men ; and there are now in Spain and Italy great numbers of the Disciples of Molinos , who are against the use of Images in praying , and the Invocation of Saints , and other things for which the rest of the Church of Rome do so very much contend ; and it is not long , since the Assembly of the French Clergy approved of a Book of Mr. Gerbais a , which this best of modern Popes condemned , forbidding the reading of it upon Pain of Excommunication , and of not being absolv'd by any but this Pope , or some other Pope for the time being , unless in the Article of Death . Certainly what they differed about , must be something of Moment , otherwise it would not have drawn after it so heavy a Sentence . And now we see how Father Walsh and Father Pulton differ here about a General Council , which the said Father P. in his late Catechisings , has own'd as his Rule of Faith. 4. The fourth Motive is the Zeal of making Conversions abroad . The Question is , Whether they are Conversions to the true Christianity , of which we have Instances in the English Protestant Colonies . For the Scribes and Pharisees compass'd Sea and Land to make Proselytes ; but it would have been much better for Religion , if they had staid at home , and mended their own Morals . Balzac somewhere observes , that most of the Conversions are made in warm Countries , where there is Gold , and other valuable Things ; and that the like Zeal does not move them towards cold and barren Nova Zembla . And the manner of the Conversions made by the Spaniards in America , is too Tragical to be related . 5. The fifth Motive is Miracles . The Church has no need of them for the confirming the Apostles Creed . If the Creed of Pope Pius wants them , lying Wonders agree well enough to a Sum of false Articles of Faith. But seeing Miracles are for them that believe not , and not for them who believe , why do they not shew a Sign among us who are not too hasty of Assent to Doctrines properly Roman ? The Letter says , none pretend to Miracles but the Romans , yet even the Quakers , and some very nigh to them a pretend both to Miracles and Infallibility . 6. The sixth Motive is , That Men of Quality go out of the World into Holy Orders . It is , in the Ecclesiastical State , the readiest way to Preferment , but I do not say that none have better Intentions . 7. The seventh is , that they built our Churches . A good Argument for the Heathens who built the Pantheon , ( or the Temple for the Worship of all strange Gods ) which now at Rome , they use as the Church of All their Saints . A good Argument for the Turks , who in the Morea built many of the Mosques , which are now by the Romanists used as Churches . 8. The eighth is the Leachery of King Henry the 8th . He liv'd and died a Papist , and many Popes have out-gone him in Vice , and more in Atheism : However , he was a great Prince , and Luther is blam'd for using Language towards him which was not so respectful ; but the Priests can put into the Mouth of a Boy words very unseemly . 9. The ninth is the Violence of Queen Elizabeth , &c. But who are the violent ? they that provoke , or they they that punish when justly provok'd ? Till the Pope sent his Bull against her , the Papists liv'd in great Quiet and Ease , and came to our Service . Gabiutius b confesseth that Pope Pius did , by all means possible , disturb her Reign ; and he himself would not let her die in Peace , for he makes her Death ( after a Reign of four and forty years ) to be a Judgement upon her , and says , as his sort of Charity mov'd him , that she exchanged a wicked Life for everlasting Death . After all this Weakness of Argument , to pretend to Inspiration , and the Holy Ghost , is certainly to grieve that blessed Spirit of Truth . After their having taught the Boy to say this of the Spirit of God , 't is a small thing for them to lessen Dr. T. and to manage him in writing that Dr. T 's four hours-Discourse had more confirm'd him . He could scarce be harder than he was before . But these Virtuosi have found out an Art of confirming a Nether Milstone . May God give J. S. and them the Grace of Sincerity . If they had had a sufficient Measure of it , they would not have taught him to say , that the Roman Faith ( such as is now their Faith ) had been here for a thousand years . For Gregory the Great sent not the same Canon of Scripture they now go by . For he would not allow the Book of Maccabees to be Canonical ; and what Bible did he send , for he confesses he understood no Greek ? Further , it appears from the very Recantation of John Wickliff for the saving of his Life a , that there was then in England no such Doctrine , as Transubstantiation publickly impos'd as an Article of Faith. That which comes at the close , is still as false . viz. that all the Relations of the selling of Pardons are Stories ; tho the Romish Historians agree in this with the Protestant , that the gross Practice of the Popes selling Pardons by Tezelius , was the occasion of Luther's leaving the Church of Rome . A Brief Account of Mr. Pulton's second Narrative , with cursory Notes upon it . AFter Dr. T. had sent Mr. P. the first Copy of his Account , Mr. P. sent him his second Account , or his Narrative enlarged . On this Dr. T. makes these Cursory Notes . 1. He will have the Conference to be for the sake of J. S. tho Dr. T. had declared otherwise , and cautioned against the old Trick of making a Conversion of one chang'd already to turn upon a verbal Conference . And to the End that the Opinion of Dr. Horneck touching J. S. as well as that of Dr. T 's may be the better known , I have here inserted part of a Letter sent to Dr. T. from that Reverend Person . Octob. the 13th 87. Reverend Sir , VVHEN the Boy came to me with his Master , I looked upon him , and methought I saw Stubbornness , Ill-nature , and Sullenness in his Face : I asked him several Questions , but had much ado to get an Answer from him . To me he seem'd to intimate that he was already gone over to them . Something I dropt accidentally about Succession , which he laid hold of , and with a kind of scornful Smile demanded , what Succession we could shew ? I told him both for Men and Doctrine , and proved it to him . But after that he gave me little or no Answer to any thing I asked him . I made him promise me to consider of what I had said , and to come to me again , which after some Demurr , he did ; but never came . I suppose you have an Account of the Sermon that was preach'd at the Mass-House in the Savoy on Sunday last , &c. The Publication of the Conference will be absolutely necessary . I was at Black-Friars yesterday , and heard that a Man having heard that the Victory went on the Papists side , was turn'd Papist upon it . This I had from the Man's Neighbour , who ask'd me about that Conference , but I rectified his Mistake . I am SIR , Yours to command A. Horneck . Note , Dr. H. was not consulted till Octob. 13. which confirms sully both what Mr. U. had said of J. S. and Dr. T. had observed of him . These Numbers relate to Mr. P 's Paragraphs . 4. He makes Dr. T. to say that Luther's Works were not in Quarto but in Fotio , instead of saying in four or in six Folio's , which small things I would not note , if they did not show that a Thread of Mistake ( sometimes wilful , and sometimes not ) does run through his whole Narrative . He goes on , saying , that he had not brought the Book into the Pulpit : we never talk'd of it , but as shown privately in his Chamber , and by this way of excusing his Aequivocation , he exposes it . 10. He says Dr. T. appeal'd to the Greeks and Bohemians . But certainly to say , as Dr. T. did , that there were amongst them Christians professing the Faith of the Apostles Creed , and disclaiming the Errors of Rome before Luther rose , is not appealing to them . 12. What Mr. P. says of Dr. T 's boast of having ten thousand Pounds worth of Books ( if his Amanuensis has not mistaken in the figuring ) will not be easily credited . 13. Mr. P. would not have said what he does of St. Peter's 25 years , if he had not mistaken Dr. T. who never deny'd that St. Peter was ever at Rome , but spake of the 25 Years before he came thither , not out of Eusebius's Cronicon , as Mr. P. imagin'd ( tho in that Book the 25 in the Latin , is not in the Greek , and Eusebius elsewhere b contradicts that Computation ) but out of a passage in Lactantius . c which perhaps being formerly run away with , without due attention to its meaning , might occasion that Blunder in Chronology ; if Pope Damasus had not a Finger in that Corruption . 14. He speaks of Dr. T 's being judg'd by the four first Centuries , which is not the whole Truth ; he lik'd them best , but would not be judg'd by them ; for he took in Universal Testimony , separate from Authority . 15. Mr. P. affirms , That he had read all Ecclesiastical History , and had Volumes of Notes relating to it . Much good may his Common-place-Book do him , if it be taken out of some such Authors as are cited in his Speculum , Anacletus's Epistle , St. Cyprian de caenâ Domini , St. Cyril of Jerusalem's Apology against Ruffinus ( who flourished not till about Anno 390. Whilst St. Cyril flourish'd Anno 350. ) he may call his Notes Collections , but they are properly Weedings . 15. He puts upon Dr. T. a false thing , of denying that any Bishops came from England to the Council of Lateran . Dr. T. is positive , upon Inquiry , that this is a false and unfair way of Apologizing for his own Mistake , by inventing one for him who charg'd him with it . Dr. T. only ask'd a few Questions about that Council , and set Father Walsh against Father Pulton , shewing how far they were from Unity , about what was , and what was not a General Council , Mr. Pulton's Guide , tho not every Jesuite's . Dr. T. well knew that most of the Roman Communion have insisted on that Council as General , tho it be not so . And he well remembers he told Mr. P. he would upon occasion hold him to it , seeing that Council teaches the Deposing Doctrine , which Doctrine , notwithstanding , Mr. P. disclaimed at his going forth out of the second Room . 16 , 17. He is much concern'd at Dr. T 's insisting on one place in St. Ambrose . Dr. T. insisted upon that for a reason Mr. P. might know , but was not aware of , and it was this : That Passage out of St. Ambrose , had been by a certain Priest translated into English , and given to a Person of Honour in order to Conversion ; and this Paper has been long , tho in private manner carried about the Town , as likewise some disjointed Passages transcribed from Dr. Taylour about the Real Presence , which taken by themselves do give a most abusive Representation of that Doctor 's Sense . This Place being then the Engine of Converters , it was fit to be expos'd . If Mr. P. pleases , I will name Persons and Places to him . 17. Observe here the Fidelity either of Mr. P's Memory , or his Conscience . He savs the Doctor told a Story of some Priest at Rome , who having pronounced the Words of Consecration , was heard to say aloud , that he believ'd not as the Roman Church oblig'd . Whereas the Story ( as before repeated ) was about the Courtesans over-hearing the Priests , say , Bread thou art , and Bread thou shalt be . 18. Mr. P. ( leaving out what was answered to the place in J. Martyr ) says , the Doctor would not declare what he believed in the Point of the Real Presence , and yet Dr. T. repeated the Words of the Catechism , and said he would abide by the true Sense of them . 18. He talks of knocking the Pulpit , which words he never nam'd there . What Priests act most there , is known enough to the World. 19. Dr. T. is said to have asked Mr. P. what Verse it was wherein it was written — If he hear not the Church : Whereas he appeals to all the Company , if he did not ask him in what Evangelist it was , and he could not tell , and instead of that Mr. P. says of himself that he did not tell . He had said more than was fit upon other occasions , why was he not in humour to say what was fit here ? He adds Dr. T. turning from place to place found it . Whereas he named the Chapter and Verse before he began to turn ; and the reason of his turning was manifest , for he could not read the Print by the Light they had , till he was forc'd to pull out his Spectacles . These are very little Remarks , but they discover ( that which by God's Grace I shall always abhor ) great Shifting and Insincerity . 30. He says , that Pope Nicholas never taught that the People ate Christ's Flesh as divided into many pieces . But how then does he construe the Confession of Berengarius enjoyn'd by the said Pope , and his Synod ? * — I profess from my Heart , that the true Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ , is , and is sensually , not only in the Sacrament , but in Verity , handled and broken by the Priests Hands , and ground by the Teeth of the Faithful . 32. Dr. T. is said to have cited Mariana and Suarez . He never nam'd them . The Schoolmaster did . He spake only of Becanus and Doleman , and of him not under the Name of Parsons ; for if Parsons own'd that Book , he thinks 't was another Person that wrote it . 32. Mr. P. ends , as he brake up the Conference , with insnaring Words about Persecution , and the Q. of Scots , and the Bill of Exclusion ; and he writes as if he had been transcribing Philanax , or , the Book whence he borrow'd , Jerusalem and Babel : And makes the fierceness of some Men to be the Spirit of the Reformation . I will not touch upon indecent Arguments , but conclude by wishing that Mr. P. well knew what Spirit he is of . THE END . Notes, typically marginal, from the original text Notes for div A64381-e1700 a Pasc. Radb . de Corp. & Sang. Dom. c. 3. op . p. 1561. sunt autem sacramenta Christi in Ecclesia , baptismus & Chrisma , corpus quoque domini & sanguis . a V. Vit. Lutheri ap . Melch. Ad. p. 104. ( b ) See Lat. Council , To. 7. Act. 4. Con. 2. Nic. p. 253 , 254. & Act. 5. p. 382. a La Creance de l Eglise Orientale sur la Transubst , &c. A Par. 87. a Letter to B. of L. p. 367. a Infra Oct. Corp. Christi . Lectio 4. Tu forte dicis : meus panis est usitatus . Sed panis iste panis est ante verba Sacramentorum ; ubi accesserit consecratio , de pane fit Caro Christi . Hoc igitur astruamus , quomodo potest , qui panis est , corpus esse Christi ? Consecratione . Lectio 5. Vides ergo quam operatorius sit sermo Christi ? Si ergo tanta vis est in sermone Domini Jesu , ut inciperent esse quae non erant ; quanto magis operatorius est , ut sint quae erant , & in aliud commutentur ? Coelum non erat , mare non erat , terra non erat . Sed audi dicentem , ipse dixit , & facta sunt ; Ipse mandavit & creata sunt . Ergo tibi ut respondeam , non erat corpus Christi ante consecrationem ; sed post consecrationem dico tibi quod jam corpus est Christi . Ipse dixit , est factum , & ipse mandavit & creatum est . a Deut. 17. 8 , to 13. Notes for div A64381-e7490 a Rer. Liturg . l. 1. c. 7. p. 351. a Guid 1 Spir. per Il dott . Mich. di Molinos sacerdote p. 318. Quarta impressione in Roma , 1681. b De Sacr. l. c. c. 4 p. 447. b De Sacram . l. 4. cap. 5. p. 439. Accipe quae sunt verba — Dicit sacerdos , fac nobis , inquit , banc oblationem ascriptam , &c. Quod est figura corporis & sanguinis D. N. J. Christi . c See Relation of a Conference , by Ed. Still . &c. An. 1676. p. 36 , 37. and Append. p. 50 , 51 , 52. d Cyril . Catech. Myst. 3. p. 235. and Catech. 4. p. 237. a St. Cyril p. 237. C. a St. Cyril Catech. 3. Il●um . p. 16. B. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . a Sophron. — 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . D. Hieron . l. de . Ser. Eccles . — Quis in Adolescentia composuit . b Just. Mart. Apol. 2. p. 97 , 98. c Gr. Nyss. dc S. Ch. B. Notes for div A64381-e11840 a I will prove ( if you please ) that this was a common Story , T. T. Notes for div A64381-e12230 a Diff. betwixt Prot. and Socin . Meth. p. 57 , 58 , &c. b Judge in Contr. c The Catholick Representer , 2 part . ch . 9. p. 58. * Dr. Jacks . Works , Tom. 3. cap. 16. p. 870. Notes for div A64381-e15820 Rom. 11. 20 , 21 , 22. a Gerb. Dissert . de Caus. major . V. Bref du 8 Decemb. p. 84 , 85. Act. Cl. Gall. a See Mr. Barclay 's possib . and necessity of immed . Revel . And Scarlot 's Eternal Gospel . b Gabiut . in vitâ Pii 5. c. 9. p. 102. — tandem divino judicio — impiam vitam cum sempiternâ morte commutaverit , &c. a V. H. de Knyghton . p. 2647. Notes for div A64381-e17260 b Eus. E. Hist. l. 2. c. 14. p. 41 l. 3. c. 1. p. 56 , 57. V. Orig. Exp. in Gen. Tom. 3. c Lact. de mort . Perfec . ap . Baluz . Misc. p. 2 , 3. * Decreti par . 3. 1. 42. de Consecr . p. 1932. — Corde profiteor — verum Corp. & Sangu . D. N. J Chr. esse , & sensualiter , non solùm sacramento , sed in veritate manibus Sacerdotum tractari , frangi , & fidelium dentibus atteri , &c.